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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:32:19 +0300 (EEST)
From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
Reply-To: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Subject: Re: g++ shared library segfaults 
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[cc: list snipped]

On Sat, 10 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:

> 
> Mea Culpa got a little lost in the meaning of semantics I should have 
> known better what you meant :(
> 
> Reduction or "Beauty" as it is known in certain other fields is different
> than brute force methods. Actually, I shouldn't talk down too much
> brute force --- just ask the current World Chess champion 8)
> 
> Now working smart and choosing your constraints carefully is a different
> issue. 
> 
> At any rate back to work over here , based on the feedback that I gotten
> so far I am looking into webtk and amulet -- Now just because I am
> looking into those packages does not mean that I am going to use 
> tcl/tck nor the amulet library -- there is such a thing call abstraction 8)
> 

Still, if, at some point of time you think that there could be such a
think as tcl based scritping (that is - there is an embeded tcl
interpretator with a number of restrictions but access to the facilities
of the program). And I don't mean something like emacs. And not
something like MSWord. I mean something small, and with no commands
written in tcl. It is a glue language after all.

I have done a lot of tcl commands, if you feel like getting some, let me
know.

	Sander

> Not too say that is really the way to go however I am really impress by
> webtk --- excellent example of what a poor language can do.
> 
> So in one corner we have  webtk with is obvious advantage/disadvantage 
> and in the opposite corner we have Qt and Amulet. Qt seems easier to use
> however it lacks a nice GUI builder what is nice about it is its meta
> object interface for tokens "slots" and "signals". Don't know that much 
> about Amulet yet just got it compile over here so far it looks like
> a strong contender not so much for it object oriented interface rather
> for its supporting functionality for constraints : gesture recognition,
> animation, ability to mimic look/feel for mac/win95/motif. Amulet comes
> with a "nice" gui builder -- just try it out over here and it looks
> like it can be useful.
> 
> 	Enjoy,
> 	Amancio
> 
> >From The Desk Of Terry Lambert :
> > > > > > What I am looking for is for experienced programmers that can 
> > > > > > come in and do the "job" -- the job being defined as a cool
> > > > > > document program.
> > > > > 
> > > > > That job is about 3 man-years worth of work.
> > > > 
> > > > Cool.  If he can get 365 volunteers (and one leap-volunteer 8-))
> > > > then he can be done in 3 days.
> > > 
> > > Actually, 9 pregnant women can not deliver one baby in a month. 
> > > 
> > > "Mythical Man Month" by Fred Brooks  first published in 1975.
> > > 
> > > For those interested the book is about managing large scale projects.
> > > 
> > > Reducing complex problems is not the same as throwing bodies at 
> > > a project.
> > 
> > I know.  I was making the distinction between 9 motivated programmers
> > and throwing 365 bodies at the problem.  Jordan seemed to be implying
> > that your call for programmers was a throwing of bodies, and that
> > something that would take 3 many years was not worth pursuing on a
> > voluntary basis.
> > 
> > 
> > 					Regards,
> > 					Terry Lambert
> > 					terry@lambert.org
> > ---
> > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> > or previous employers.
> 
> 
> 



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To: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
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Subject: Re: g++ shared library segfaults 
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Tnks  I have worked quite a bit with tcl and I know what it is.

	Regards,
	Amancio


> 
> [cc: list snipped]
> 
> On Sat, 10 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Mea Culpa got a little lost in the meaning of semantics I should have 
> > known better what you meant :(
> > 
> > Reduction or "Beauty" as it is known in certain other fields is different
> > than brute force methods. Actually, I shouldn't talk down too much
> > brute force --- just ask the current World Chess champion 8)
> > 
> > Now working smart and choosing your constraints carefully is a different
> > issue. 
> > 
> > At any rate back to work over here , based on the feedback that I gotten
> > so far I am looking into webtk and amulet -- Now just because I am
> > looking into those packages does not mean that I am going to use 
> > tcl/tck nor the amulet library -- there is such a thing call abstraction 8)
> > 
> 
> Still, if, at some point of time you think that there could be such a
> think as tcl based scritping (that is - there is an embeded tcl
> interpretator with a number of restrictions but access to the facilities
> of the program). And I don't mean something like emacs. And not
> something like MSWord. I mean something small, and with no commands
> written in tcl. It is a glue language after all.
> 
> I have done a lot of tcl commands, if you feel like getting some, let me
> know.
> 
> 	Sander
> 
> > Not too say that is really the way to go however I am really impress by
> > webtk --- excellent example of what a poor language can do.
> > 
> > So in one corner we have  webtk with is obvious advantage/disadvantage 
> > and in the opposite corner we have Qt and Amulet. Qt seems easier to use
> > however it lacks a nice GUI builder what is nice about it is its meta
> > object interface for tokens "slots" and "signals". Don't know that much 
> > about Amulet yet just got it compile over here so far it looks like
> > a strong contender not so much for it object oriented interface rather
> > for its supporting functionality for constraints : gesture recognition,
> > animation, ability to mimic look/feel for mac/win95/motif. Amulet comes
> > with a "nice" gui builder -- just try it out over here and it looks
> > like it can be useful.
> > 
> > 	Enjoy,
> > 	Amancio
> > 
> > >From The Desk Of Terry Lambert :
> > > > > > > What I am looking for is for experienced programmers that can 
> > > > > > > come in and do the "job" -- the job being defined as a cool
> > > > > > > document program.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > That job is about 3 man-years worth of work.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Cool.  If he can get 365 volunteers (and one leap-volunteer 8-))
> > > > > then he can be done in 3 days.
> > > > 
> > > > Actually, 9 pregnant women can not deliver one baby in a month. 
> > > > 
> > > > "Mythical Man Month" by Fred Brooks  first published in 1975.
> > > > 
> > > > For those interested the book is about managing large scale projects.
> > > > 
> > > > Reducing complex problems is not the same as throwing bodies at 
> > > > a project.
> > > 
> > > I know.  I was making the distinction between 9 motivated programmers
> > > and throwing 365 bodies at the problem.  Jordan seemed to be implying
> > > that your call for programmers was a throwing of bodies, and that
> > > something that would take 3 many years was not worth pursuing on a
> > > voluntary basis.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 					Regards,
> > > 					Terry Lambert
> > > 					terry@lambert.org
> > > ---
> > > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> > > or previous employers.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 01:31:41 1997
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Subject: Re: socketpair() 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 10 May 1997 13:44:57 PDT."
             <9705102044.AA01420@gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> 
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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 18:29:43 +1000
From: David Nugent <davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au>
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>  >I remember some discussion a while ago about pipe() in FreeBSD
>  >having been implemented (until recently?) using socketpair(),
>  >so perhaps there's no difference. What about with regards to
>  >portability and so forth?
>
>  I think socketpair gives you bidirectional pipes...

pipe() should too, I think. I've never come across an implementation
that doesn't. Or, at least it doesn't seem to matter which returned
handle you use for reading and which for writing.

[popen() of course doesn't, but that's a different story].

I had seen socketpair() used in BSDI's authentication code, which is
why I asked. Previously we were using popen(), but perhaps your
comments are relevent. Their new authentication api allows writing
to the pipe as well before starting to listen on it for the
authentication data, so it /has/ to be bidirectional. I just didn't
know that pipe had that limitation, assuming it does.

Regards,

David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia
Voice +61-3-9791-9547  Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507  3:632/348@fidonet
davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 01:59:09 1997
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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 09:58:11 +0100 (BST)
From: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: PATCHES: NFS server locking support
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On Thu, 8 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:

> 
> I have just uploaded patches for kernel support of NFS server locking.
> 
> They are on freefall in the file:
> 
> 	~terry/LOCK.DIFF

Thanks Terry!  I won't have time to look at this today but I will
definitely look at this early next week.  It seems likely that I can
commit most of this stuff.  The NAMEI changes are, I think, the right way
to go and (without actually reading the diff) shouldn't take us too much
farther away from the 4.4BSD line.

--
Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 951 1891


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 02:18:13 1997
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             <Pine.BSF.3.96.970511100239.7968A-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> 
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> 
> Still, if, at some point of time you think that there could be such a
> think as tcl based scritping (that is - there is an embeded tcl
> interpretator with a number of restrictions but access to the facilities
> of the program). And I don't mean something like emacs. And not
> something like MSWord. I mean something small, and with no commands
> written in tcl. It is a glue language after all.
> 
> I have done a lot of tcl commands, if you feel like getting some, let me
> know.
> 

Is not clear that we need tcl at least for the document project . 

Specially in light of something like ILU and hopefully with an Object Broker
can serve as "glue" for local or distributed objects. If we expand
on the http procotol provided with ILU all of the sudden we can 
have an interesting communication infra structure for our "documents" 8)
Also, ilu supports multiple language interfaces , c, c++, python and java.

   ftp://ftp.parc.xerox.com/pub/ilu/ilu.html
   http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/OOP/WhyILU

For an interesting article on c, ACE (c++), and CORBA (ILU comes very
close to CORBA) see:


"Programming Pearls from the C++ Report
C++ Gems "
	Comparing Alternative Distributed Programming Techniques, page 317

	Enjoy,
	Amancio




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 03:21:03 1997
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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:17:04 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: socketpair()
References: <9705102044.AA01420@gnu.sdsp.mc.xerox.com> <199705110829.SAA04202@labs.usn.blaze.net.au>
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As David Nugent wrote:

> pipe() should too, I think. I've never come across an implementation
> that doesn't. Or, at least it doesn't seem to matter which returned
> handle you use for reading and which for writing.

All FreeBSD versions before this did (translates into ``FreeBSD < 2.2''):

RCS file: /home/cvs/src/sys/kern/uipc_syscalls.c,v
Working file: /sys/kern/uipc_syscalls.c
...

revision 1.11
date: 1996/01/01 10:28:21;  author: peter;  state: Exp;  lines: +3 -3
Make pipe() return a set of bidirectional pipe fd's rather than one-way only
just like on SVR4.

This has no effect on any current programs in our source, but makes
the use of SVR4 code a little easier.  There is no code or implementation
cost in the kernel.. This two-line change merely sets the modes on the ends
of the pipes to be bidirectional.  There are no other changes.

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 04:37:37 1997
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Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: socketpair()
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From: Andrew Gierth <andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk>
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>>>>> "David" == David Nugent <davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> writes:

 >> I think socketpair gives you bidirectional pipes...

 David> pipe() should too, I think. 

I don't.

Few uses of pipe() really benefit from bidirectional pipes; they are not
standard, and assuming bidirectionality is going to give you a major
portability headache.

 David> I've never come across an implementation that doesn't. Or, at
 David> least it doesn't seem to matter which returned handle you use
 David> for reading and which for writing.

You must lead a very sheltered life. Other than SVR4, bidirectionality
seems to be the exception, not the rule.

-- 
Andrew.

comp.unix.programmer FAQ: see <URL: http://www.erlenstar.demon.co.uk/unix/>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 04:37:53 1997
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On Sun, 11 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:

> > 
> > Still, if, at some point of time you think that there could be such a
> > think as tcl based scritping (that is - there is an embeded tcl
> > interpretator with a number of restrictions but access to the facilities
> > of the program). And I don't mean something like emacs. And not
> > something like MSWord. I mean something small, and with no commands
> > written in tcl. It is a glue language after all.
> > 
> > I have done a lot of tcl commands, if you feel like getting some, let me
> > know.
> > 
> 
> Is not clear that we need tcl at least for the document project . 
> 
> Specially in light of something like ILU and hopefully with an Object Broker
> can serve as "glue" for local or distributed objects. If we expand
> on the http procotol provided with ILU all of the sudden we can 
> have an interesting communication infra structure for our "documents" 8)
> Also, ilu supports multiple language interfaces , c, c++, python and java.

I thought of tcl scripting more on the lines of a "macro language". Much
more lightweight than a full system for describing/manupulating/
interfacing objects in a possibly distributed system. 

Instead I thought of something that would allow you to write a (most
possibly used-just-once) sricpt for adding extra identation to the
paragraphs follwing a "heading" or change the alignment (or whatever) of
paragraphs starting with/containg/... etc. 

	Sander

> 
>    ftp://ftp.parc.xerox.com/pub/ilu/ilu.html
>    http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/OOP/WhyILU
> 
> For an interesting article on c, ACE (c++), and CORBA (ILU comes very
> close to CORBA) see:
> 
> 
> "Programming Pearls from the C++ Report
> C++ Gems "
> 	Comparing Alternative Distributed Programming Techniques, page 317
> 
> 	Enjoy,
> 	Amancio
> 
> 
> 
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 04:44:58 1997
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From: Peter Dufault <dufault@hda.com>
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Subject: Re: g++ shared library segfaults (SOLUTION)
In-Reply-To: <199705062018.QAA13068@hda.hda.com> from Peter Dufault at "May 6, 97 04:18:49 pm"
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> Does anyone who uses g++ and shared libraries care to speculate
> about this shared library crash in ptolemy?  The alpha release of
> ptolemy is working fine in a static version, but trying to build
> a shared library version is producing this traceback, and I expect
> this is a configuration issue on my end.  It seems to happen at
> the transition from the ptolemy shared library to the g++ shared
> library.  I'll build a debug version of stdc++ but in the mean time
> maybe someone has seen something like this.

Now back to the question at hand: David Nugent correctly guessed
that I wasn't linking the shared libraries properly and the
static constructors weren't executing.  Yes - don't overlook
the prepending of ${DESTDIR}/usr/lib/c++rt0.o to SOBJS on older
systems or the or the use of "gcc -shared" in -current.

Thanks, David.

-- 
Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com)   Realtime Machine Control and Simulation
HD Associates, Inc.               Voice: 508 433 6936

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 04:46:22 1997
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To: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: sio flow control problems with 2.2? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 10 May 1997 16:38:35 +0200."
             <199705101438.QAA19811@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> 
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From: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
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> Hi,
> 
> I am a bit afraid to ask since this might be a configuration problem
> on my side, but after a week of tests and tens of wasted calls I
> think I need some advice.
> 
> Since when I upgraded our ppp server to a P6-200 running FreeBSD
> 2.2.1R, using a 28.8 modem (which reports 24000 bps at connect) I
> am having problems with modem flow control. I am using the same
> modems and serial port setup as on our previous server (a P5-133
> w/ FreeBSD 2.1) and client (a P5-133, w/ 2.1 and 2.2, both of which
> worked), which has been working for months with iijppp.
> 
> But now, even if, on the client, I start ppp, log into the server
> (using mgetty), and then start elm, the output is a total mess, I have
> missing lines, etc. as if flow control were not working. The only way
> to make things work is to reduce the speed to 9600 at the server side
> (and still... I suspect it just happens to work..). PPP fails with
> packets longer than ~750 bytes.

Strange.  If you've got a tcp connection (on ppp), tcp should
checksum and serialise everything.  If there are flow control
problems, they should effectively freeze the link.

> On both sides, cuaa1 is set with -clocal crtscts, the internal
> modems are (apparently) set properly (AT&K3 or AT\Q3, "enable
> RTS/CTS flow control"), as in the past, and they are recognised as
> 16550 at boot.

There are options to allow allow XON/XOFF in ppps config (I've never
tested them, I just noticed them when I was there for another
reason), but the default is hardware.  With pppd, I believe you
need to specifically say crtscts in the options file (or on the
command line).

> What I suspect is that the new machine might be too fast in
> pumping data to the modem, and for some reason it might miss the
> handshake thus overflowing the receiver. It might be a broken modem
> or something wrong in the sio code, has anyone suggestions where
> to look at ?

It's theoretically impossible to give the modem too much data -
the next character is only sent on receipt of an interrupt (maybe
you've got something else causing interrupts ?) that says the
transmit buffer is empty.

> 	Thanks
> 	Luigi
> -----------------------------+--------------------------------------
> Luigi Rizzo                  |  Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
> email: luigi@iet.unipi.it    |  Universita' di Pisa
> tel: +39-50-568533           |  via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
> fax: +39-50-568522           |  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
> _____________________________|______________________________________

I think your first step should be to prove you can log in using
kermit or some such and see that flow control works there.

Then you can put ppp and tcp/ip on top.

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 04:46:51 1997
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To: brian@awfulhak.org, brian@utell.co.uk
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Providing updates for lpd/lpr/etc 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 May 1997 12:16:26 BST."
             <199705091116.MAA04484@utell.co.uk> 
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[.....]
> I havn't yet merged some changes in the 3.0 branch into 2.2
> (changes to printjob.c in lpd to allow filters with remote
> printing), but I'll do it soon.  Nobody's complained about
> any problems.

They're merged now.

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org> <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour !



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 04:47:26 1997
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To: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Routing 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 May 1997 22:44:15 +0300."
             <Pine.BSF.3.96.970508223824.7084C-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> 
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> 
> 	Hi!
> 
> I have some routing (and freebsd network throughput) questions:
> 
> 1) Has somebody tried routing using freebsd between
> 	a) two fast ethernet segments
> 	b) fast ethernet segment/2...3 ethernet segments

I'm sure lots of people have.

> 2) Say I have two wires running from point A to point B. Is there any
> routing protocol which would allow you to view these two wires like one
> with the bandwidth of about 2*one wire?

Have a look at ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/mpd*

> 	Sander
> 

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 05:29:35 1997
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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You are correct I do need a scripting language .The question is which one?

Not sure that I like tcl for this sort of thing .. however I am considering
it . The problem that I have with tcl for end users is that it is not
an intuitive language nor is it well structured unless one uses something
like tcl / incr. I have to think about it a little longer and explore 
other alternatives . 

	Tnks,
	Amancio

>From The Desk Of Narvi :
> 
> 
> On Sun, 11 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > > Still, if, at some point of time you think that there could be such a
> > > think as tcl based scritping (that is - there is an embeded tcl
> > > interpretator with a number of restrictions but access to the facilities
> > > of the program). And I don't mean something like emacs. And not
> > > something like MSWord. I mean something small, and with no commands
> > > written in tcl. It is a glue language after all.
> > > 
> > > I have done a lot of tcl commands, if you feel like getting some, let me
> > > know.
> > > 
> > 
> > Is not clear that we need tcl at least for the document project . 
> > 
> > Specially in light of something like ILU and hopefully with an Object Broke
r
> > can serve as "glue" for local or distributed objects. If we expand
> > on the http procotol provided with ILU all of the sudden we can 
> > have an interesting communication infra structure for our "documents" 8)
> > Also, ilu supports multiple language interfaces , c, c++, python and java.
> 
> I thought of tcl scripting more on the lines of a "macro language". Much
> more lightweight than a full system for describing/manupulating/
> interfacing objects in a possibly distributed system. 
> 
> Instead I thought of something that would allow you to write a (most
> possibly used-just-once) sricpt for adding extra identation to the
> paragraphs follwing a "heading" or change the alignment (or whatever) of
> paragraphs starting with/containg/... etc. 
> 
> 	Sander
> 
> > 
> >    ftp://ftp.parc.xerox.com/pub/ilu/ilu.html
> >    http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/OOP/WhyILU
> > 
> > For an interesting article on c, ACE (c++), and CORBA (ILU comes very
> > close to CORBA) see:
> > 
> > 
> > "Programming Pearls from the C++ Report
> > C++ Gems "
> > 	Comparing Alternative Distributed Programming Techniques, page 317
> > 
> > 	Enjoy,
> > 	Amancio
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 06:15:14 1997
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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:16:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Daniel M. Eischen" <deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: GNAT-pthreads integration bugs/questions
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I've implemented Ada tasking in GNAT over FreeBSDs pthreads library.  So
far everything seems to work great.  Thanks to John Birrell for making
this possible!

I did make some changes to the threads library and have a couple other
questions.

Problems with pthreads (libc_r:/uthread):

  o pthreads.h doesn't reflect reality.  Where are pthread_setschedparam
    and pthread_getschedparam?  I take it pthread_getprio and pthread_setprio
    are to be used instead.  The same for pthread_attr_setschedparam and
    pthread_attr_getschedparam, but why is there only pthread_attr_setprio
    and no pthread_attr_getprio.

  o Added pthread_attr_getprio (uthread/uthread_attr_getprio.c).

  o Added uthread_sigwait.c, uthread_attr_getprio.c, and
    uthread_attr_setprio.c to Makefile.inc in libc_r/uthreads.

Questions about layering the GNAT tasking runtime over FreeBSD threads:

  o There is a mechanism in the GNAT runtime to reserve signals so that
    they will never allowed to be masked by an application.  Like SIGVTALRM
    because it is used by pthreads (setitimer/getitimer) for scheduling.
    Pthreads doesn't seem to use SIGALRM, but I've reserved this signal also.
    Is it safe to allow SIGALRM to be masked?  I've also reserved SIGCHLD,
    SIGSTOP, SIGKILL, and SIGINT.

  o The Ada language predefines the Constraint_Error and Storage_Error
    exceptions.  A Constraint_Error is raised for things like referencing
    null pointers, division by zero, going outside the bounds of an
    array, overflow, etc.  A Storage_Error is typically raised when
    an allocator requires more space than is available for a storage
    pool.  The GNAT runtime provides a signal handler to exception
    raising mechanism.  I've converted SIGFPE and SIGILL to Constraint_Error
    and SIGSEGV and SIGBUS to Storage_Error.  Is there anything in
    sigcontext that would help to determine which exception should
    really be raised?

Dan Eischen
deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org

Patches to libc_r/uthread
------8<----------8<----------8<----------8<----------8<----------
*** uthread/Makefile.inc	Sat May 10 23:51:49 1997
--- uthread.new/Makefile.inc	Sat May 10 21:58:37 1997
***************
*** 9,16 ****
--- 11,20 ----
  	uthread_attr_init.c \
  	uthread_attr_getdetachstate.c \
+ 	uthread_attr_getprio.c \
  	uthread_attr_getstackaddr.c \
  	uthread_attr_getstacksize.c \
  	uthread_attr_setcreatesuspend_np.c \
  	uthread_attr_setdetachstate.c \
+ 	uthread_attr_setprio.c \
  	uthread_attr_setstackaddr.c \
  	uthread_attr_setstacksize.c \
***************
*** 84,87 ****
--- 88,92 ----
  	uthread_sigsetmask.c \
  	uthread_sigsuspend.c \
+ 	uthread_sigwait.c \
  	uthread_socket.c \
  	uthread_socketpair.c \
*** uthread/uthread_attr_getprio.c	Wed Dec 31 19:00:00 1969
--- uthread.new/uthread_attr_getprio.c	Sat May 10 21:57:16 1997
***************
*** 0 ****
--- 1,49 ----
+ /*
+  * Copyright (c) 1996 John Birrell <jb@cimlogic.com.au>.
+  * All rights reserved.
+  *
+  * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
+  * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
+  * are met:
+  * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
+  *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
+  * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
+  *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
+  *    documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
+  * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software
+  *    must display the following acknowledgement:
+  *	This product includes software developed by John Birrell.
+  * 4. Neither the name of the author nor the names of any co-contributors
+  *    may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software
+  *    without specific prior written permission.
+  *
+  * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY JOHN BIRRELL AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND
+  * ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
+  * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE
+  * ARE DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL THE REGENTS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE
+  * FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL
+  * DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS
+  * OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
+  * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT
+  * LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY
+  * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
+  * SUCH DAMAGE.
+  *
+  */
+ #include <errno.h>
+ #ifdef _THREAD_SAFE
+ #include <pthread.h>
+ #include "pthread_private.h"
+ 
+ int pthread_attr_getprio(pthread_attr_t *attr)
+ {
+ 	int	ret;
+ 	if (attr == NULL || *attr == NULL) {
+ 		errno = EINVAL;
+ 		ret = -1;
+ 	} else {
+ 		ret = (*attr)->prio;
+ 	}
+ 	return(ret);
+ }
+ #endif
------8<----------8<----------8<----------8<----------8<----------

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 06:23:14 1997
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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 08:20:08 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Good news! Take a look at the site I referenced before:
http://www.cnds.jhu.edu/mirrors/mosix/
Here is the official reply. I really think we have a chance here :-)

Pedro.

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From: Amnon Barak <amnon@cs.huji.ac.il>
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To: amnon@cs.huji.ac.il, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co
Subject: Re:  MOSIX on FreeBSD?

Hello Pedro:

You asked:
>Are there plans to bring MOSIX into FreeBSD? (http://www.freebsd.org)
>What would be required for this task?

The current implementation of MOSIX works only for BSDI.

The main reason is that among FreeBSD, Linux, NetBSD and BSD/OS,
only BSD/OS is maintained by a commercial company that supports
its product, has one official release and provide on-line support.
As you may know Linux is the most popular among the above for PC's.
However, both Linux, FreeBSD and NetBSD are kind of "moving target",
they change almost daily, they are maintained by the "community" at
large and almost anyone can insert bug fixes or "new features".
This is the main reason why we do not port MOSIX to FreeBSD.

If I can get some kind of assurances that FreeBSD will be managed
by one authority, then I can port MOSIX in few weeks. If I do it
now, then I'll have to spend much efforts to update it, to be
compatible with the frequent changes in FreeBSD.

-Prof. Amnon Barak




--------------49C371CF1E3C--


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 06:28:35 1997
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From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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On Sun, 11 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:

Just make it plug-innable? That is, a on-startup configureable thing where
you list the language modules (in the form of dynamically loadable
libraries) with "depenancies"?

	Sander

> You are correct I do need a scripting language .The question is which one?
> 
> Not sure that I like tcl for this sort of thing .. however I am considering
> it . The problem that I have with tcl for end users is that it is not
> an intuitive language nor is it well structured unless one uses something
> like tcl / incr. I have to think about it a little longer and explore 
> other alternatives . 
> 
> 	Tnks,
> 	Amancio
> 

[snip]


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 08:57:46 1997
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199705111555.KAA08056@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: socketpair()
In-Reply-To: <199705110829.SAA04202@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> from David Nugent at "May 11, 97 06:29:43 pm"
To: davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 10:55:47 -0500 (EST)
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> >  >I remember some discussion a while ago about pipe() in FreeBSD
> >  >having been implemented (until recently?) using socketpair(),
> >  >so perhaps there's no difference. What about with regards to
> >  >portability and so forth?
> >
> >  I think socketpair gives you bidirectional pipes...
> 
> pipe() should too, I think. I've never come across an implementation
> that doesn't. Or, at least it doesn't seem to matter which returned
> handle you use for reading and which for writing.
> 
I wrote most of our new pipe code -- and I might be a little bit
confused...  I meant to support bidirectional pipes, and it sure
looks like we have them (at least looking at the code.)  Haven't
tested it recently though.

John

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 09:12:01 1997
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In-reply-to: <199705091734.KAA00646@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry
	Lambert on Fri, 9 May 1997 10:34:42 -0700 (MST))
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   From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
   Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:34:42 -0700 (MST)

   For people without freefall accounts, these files have also been placed
   for FTP at:

   ftp://cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/TERRY.LOCK.README
   ftp://cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/TERRY.LOCK.DIFF
   ftp://cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/TERRY.NAMEI.FREEZE

Can someone put these somewhere where they can be read?

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 09:23:39 1997
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From: Mr M P Searle <csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
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Subject: shutdown
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Would it break anything if the X server was kept running while shutting down?
(Nothing else, just that one process. The root window is set before starting
'halt' - and maybe set again after the 5 seconds.)

Michael, who has too much free time...


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 09:43:12 1997
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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:42:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>
To: Mr M P Searle <csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: shutdown
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On Sun, 11 May 1997, Mr M P Searle wrote:

> Would it break anything if the X server was kept running while shutting down?
> (Nothing else, just that one process. The root window is set before starting
> 'halt' - and maybe set again after the 5 seconds.)
> 
> Michael, who has too much free time...

I think that would mean that /usr couldn't be dismounted, which would mean
that you wouldn't get a clean shutdown on the /usr filesystem, and it 
would end up being fsck'ed on startup.  I have a big disk, and wouldn't 
want to have to wait on that all the time.

> 
> 
> 

----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 09:58:18 1997
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Subject: Re: shutdown
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> On Sun, 11 May 1997, Mr M P Searle wrote:
> 
> > Would it break anything if the X server was kept running while shutting down?
> > (Nothing else, just that one process. The root window is set before starting
> > 'halt' - and maybe set again after the 5 seconds.)
> > 
> > Michael, who has too much free time...
> 
> I think that would mean that /usr couldn't be dismounted, which would mean
> that you wouldn't get a clean shutdown on the /usr filesystem, and it 
> would end up being fsck'ed on startup.  I have a big disk, and wouldn't 
> want to have to wait on that all the time.

No - what if the server was on it's own file system? (which wasn't ever fsck'd as
it has nothing but the server on it.) My guess is that I'd get a slow shutdown
as not all buffers could be written to disk, but the reboot would be OK. Does
that sound right?


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 10:24:02 1997
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Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: socketpair()
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From: Andrew Gierth <andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk>
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>>>>> "John" == John S Dyson <toor@dyson.iquest.net> writes:

 John> I wrote most of our new pipe code -- and I might be a little bit
 John> confused...  I meant to support bidirectional pipes, and it sure
 John> looks like we have them (at least looking at the code.)  Haven't
 John> tested it recently though.

$ cat <&1 >&2 | echo hello >&0
hello
$

Works OK on RELENG-2.2 at least.

As far as I can tell, though, bidirectional pipes are still pretty much
confined to SVR4 (STREAMS pipes) and FreeBSD; most of the other flavours
I've encountered still use unidirectional pipes (at least by default;
some, like HP-UX 10.10, have a switch for it in the kernel parameters).

In other words, having support for bidirectional pipes is nice, but
relying on them will probably get you into trouble.

Is there actually any good reason for having bidirectional pipes, other
than for coping with code ported from SVR4?

-- 
Andrew.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 10:35:41 1997
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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:35:24 -0400
From: "Donald J. Maddox" <dmaddox@scsn.net>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: shutdown
References: <13277.199705111623@nice.csv.warwick.ac.uk> <Pine.BSF.3.91.970511124125.248D-100000@Journey2.mat.net>
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On Sun, May 11, 1997 at 12:42:44PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote:
> On Sun, 11 May 1997, Mr M P Searle wrote:
> 
> > Would it break anything if the X server was kept running while shutting down?
> > (Nothing else, just that one process. The root window is set before starting
> > 'halt' - and maybe set again after the 5 seconds.)
> > 
> > Michael, who has too much free time...
> 
> I think that would mean that /usr couldn't be dismounted, which would mean
> that you wouldn't get a clean shutdown on the /usr filesystem, and it 
> would end up being fsck'ed on startup.  I have a big disk, and wouldn't 
> want to have to wait on that all the time.

FWIW, I use 'shutdown -h now' all the time from an xterm, and have
never observed any ill-effects...  Everything appears to shut down
cleanly, and all the FSs apparently dismount just fine.

YMMV :-)

-- 


                                            Donald J. Maddox
                                            (dmaddox@scsn.net)


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 11:00:12 1997
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Message-Id: <199705111800.NAA08334@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: socketpair()
In-Reply-To: <87rafene42.fsf@erlenstar.demon.co.uk> from Andrew Gierth at "May 11, 97 05:54:37 pm"
To: andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk (Andrew Gierth)
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> 
> As far as I can tell, though, bidirectional pipes are still pretty much
> confined to SVR4 (STREAMS pipes) and FreeBSD; most of the other flavours
> I've encountered still use unidirectional pipes (at least by default;
> some, like HP-UX 10.10, have a switch for it in the kernel parameters).
> 
> In other words, having support for bidirectional pipes is nice, but
> relying on them will probably get you into trouble.
> 
> Is there actually any good reason for having bidirectional pipes, other
> than for coping with code ported from SVR4?
> 
I am neutral on them.  Since they were cheap to add (someone else originally
made our pipes bidirectional), I can't see a reason for not having them,
except perhaps those who port from FreeBSD to other OSes. 

Whatever whomever added them wants, I'll be happy with the decision.

John


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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 11:56:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>
To: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
cc: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: sio flow control problems with 2.2? 
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On Sun, 11 May 1997, Brian Somers wrote:

...
> It's theoretically impossible to give the modem too much data -
> the next character is only sent on receipt of an interrupt (maybe
> you've got something else causing interrupts ?) that says the
> transmit buffer is empty.

  Not quite.  Generally you drive a modem at 115200 bps, while the line
rate is only 28800 bps (plus some extra for compression).  When the
modem's internal buffer fills up, it asserts flow control.  If the
computer doesn't see it, it will keep pumping data to the modem at 115200,
which the modem will likely discard.

> > 	Thanks
> > 	Luigi
> > -----------------------------+--------------------------------------
> > Luigi Rizzo                  |  Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
> > email: luigi@iet.unipi.it    |  Universita' di Pisa
> > tel: +39-50-568533           |  via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
> > fax: +39-50-568522           |  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
> > _____________________________|______________________________________
> 
> I think your first step should be to prove you can log in using
> kermit or some such and see that flow control works there.
> 
> Then you can put ppp and tcp/ip on top.
> 
> -- 
> Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
>       <http://www.awfulhak.org>
> Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....
> 
> 
> 
> 

Tom


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 12:09:33 1997
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To: dufault@hda.com
Subject: Re: g++ shared library segfaults (SOLUTION)
Newsgroups: polstra.freebsd.hackers
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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:07:45 -0700
From: John Polstra <jdp@polstra.com>
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In article <199705111143.HAA29259@hda.hda.com>,
Peter Dufault  <dufault@hda.com> wrote:
> Now back to the question at hand: David Nugent correctly guessed
> that I wasn't linking the shared libraries properly and the
> static constructors weren't executing.  Yes - don't overlook
> the prepending of ${DESTDIR}/usr/lib/c++rt0.o to SOBJS on older
> systems or the or the use of "gcc -shared" in -current.

The "right" way to do it on older systems is to set "CPLUSPLUSLIB=true"
in the Makefile (assuming that <bsd.lib.mk> is being used).  If
you're not using <bsd.lib.mk> then yes, it's necessary to manually
link in c++rt0.o for C++ shared libraries.

As you mentioned, on recent -current systems, "gcc -shared" does the
right thing, and CPLUSPLUSLIB is not needed.  I'm going to bring
that same functionality into the -2.2 branch soon.

John
--
   John Polstra                                       jdp@polstra.com
   John D. Polstra & Co., Inc.                Seattle, Washington USA
   "Self-knowledge is always bad news."                 -- John Barth

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 12:14:57 1997
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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:14:54 -0400
From: Charles Henrich <henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: divert and ethernet addresses?
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Is there anyway to get a divert that sees the full ethernet packet so work can
be done based on the source/destination ethernet addresses?

-Crh

       Charles Henrich     Michigan State University     henrich@msu.edu

                         http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 12:29:26 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705111924.MAA06039@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: CHANGED PATCHES: NFS server locking support
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:24:28 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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Well, I was playing with NFS client locking support a bit (nothing
that I'm willing to release at this point; the net access code is
seriously gross, given the way NFS sockets are handled by the
nfs_mount command: Bletch!).  It seems that the patches would work
the way they are for the existing code, since a veto never occurs...
but would fail to remove the provisional locks in the veto case.
Go figure.  8-).


In any case, I've updated the patches (added a "discard" parameter
to lf_commit() for the veto case) and everything seems to be working.


>    For people without freefall accounts, these files have also been placed
>    for FTP at:
> 
>    ftp://cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/TERRY.LOCK.README
>    ftp://cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/TERRY.LOCK.DIFF
>    ftp://cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/TERRY.NAMEI.FREEZE
> 
> Can someone put these somewhere where they can be read?

I have taken ben@narcissus.ml.org (Snob Art Genre) up on his offer;
the files can be found at:

	ftp://narcissus.ml.org/incoming/TERRY.LOCK.DIFF
	ftp://narcissus.ml.org/incoming/TERRY.LOCK.DIFF.README
	ftp://narcissus.ml.org/incoming/TERRY.NAMEI.DIFF.FREEZE

Let me know if anyone finds any problems.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 12:43:11 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705111937.MAA06132@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: project: editor
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:37:44 -0700 (MST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705111229.FAA01208@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at May 11, 97 05:29:31 am
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> You are correct I do need a scripting language .The question is which one?
> 
> Not sure that I like tcl for this sort of thing .. however I am considering
> it . The problem that I have with tcl for end users is that it is not
> an intuitive language nor is it well structured unless one uses something
> like tcl / incr. I have to think about it a little longer and explore 
> other alternatives . 

I think that wksh has a number of significant advantes for this
type of work:

o	It's the SVR4 answer to the same problem

o	Script portability across UNIX clone OS's

o	Legacy Bourne shell scripts will run with few changes

o	It's required for Open UNIX Standard compliance


The only real drawback is that there isn't a pd implementation (I
admit that this is a whopper of a drawback, but a grammar-based
set of changes in light of the wksh book shouldn't be too hard).


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 12:45:37 1997
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To: Timothy Moore <moore@WOLFENET.com>
Subject: Re: g++ shared library segfaults 
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 May 1997 16:28:53 PDT."
		<199705092328.QAA24652@gonzo.wolfenet.com> 
References: <199705092328.QAA24652@gonzo.wolfenet.com>  
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:45:00 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199705092328.QAA24652@gonzo.wolfenet.com> Timothy Moore writes:
: Uh, that's not an illegal reference.  The scope of i extends to the
: end of the containing block, not the end of the "for" statement.

No.  That's not right.  It, per the new C++ standard, now extends to
the end of the for block.  ANSI changed that.

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 12:47:52 1997
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Subject: Re: g++ shared library segfaults 
Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty), moore@WOLFENET.com,
        freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 May 1997 17:46:24 PDT."
		<199705100046.RAA01368@phaeton.artisoft.com> 
References: <199705100046.RAA01368@phaeton.artisoft.com>  
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 13:46:32 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199705100046.RAA01368@phaeton.artisoft.com> Terry Lambert writes:
: For what it's worth, MSCVC++ and Borland C++ and Oregon C++ all have
: this same "compiler bug".  Are you *sure* about the determination of
: scope?

I am *POSITIVE* about it.  It was definitely in the Oct 95 draft
standard, which I've sense recycled.

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 12:56:46 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705111949.MAA06176@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: sio flow control problems with 2.2?
To: tom@sdf.com (Tom Samplonius)
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 12:49:35 -0700 (MST)
Cc: brian@awfulhak.org, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> ...
> > It's theoretically impossible to give the modem too much data -
> > the next character is only sent on receipt of an interrupt (maybe
> > you've got something else causing interrupts ?) that says the
> > transmit buffer is empty.
> 
>   Not quite.  Generally you drive a modem at 115200 bps, while the line
> rate is only 28800 bps (plus some extra for compression).  When the
> modem's internal buffer fills up, it asserts flow control.  If the
> computer doesn't see it, it will keep pumping data to the modem at 115200,
> which the modem will likely discard.

This is why there are stone tablets in a cave on Mt. Ararat which
(loosely translated) say:

	"Thou shalt not set the port speed higher than the committed
	 data rate for the communications device unless thine flow
	 control is active and trustworthy".

I think it's the one immediately after:

	"Thou shalt not use in-band flow control unless thou art a
	 blithering idiot or a slow witted VT3xx or VT4xx series
	 terminal from DEC".

And immediately before:

	"Thou shalt use the RS232C standard specified external clock
	 for thine strange-ass baud rates, lest though be judged to
	 be non-compliant with the strict definition of RS232C".

	 NB: Most modem and UART manufacturers are evil heretics.

Sorry if I'm mis-quoting, it's been several years since my UNIX serial
I/O pilgrimage to this holy site...


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 15:16:27 1997
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Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 15:21:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
cc: Andrew Gierth <andrew@erlenstar.demon.co.uk>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Sun, 11 May 1997, John S. Dyson wrote:

> > Is there actually any good reason for having bidirectional pipes, other
> > than for coping with code ported from SVR4?
> > 
> I am neutral on them.  Since they were cheap to add (someone else originally
> made our pipes bidirectional), I can't see a reason for not having them,
> except perhaps those who port from FreeBSD to other OSes. 
> 
> Whatever whomever added them wants, I'll be happy with the decision.

  As I understand, bidirectional pipes in SVR4 are only a side effect of
STREAMS, and original BSD anonymous pipes (as they are described 
everywhere and treated by programmers) are unidirectional. I never seen
any code, for BSD or SysV, that depends on bidirectional anonymous pipes
(for bidirectional connection two pipes are always used).

--
Alex


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 17:23:28 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:23:02 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PATCHES: NFS server locking support
In-Reply-To: <199705111610.MAA10855@jenolan.caipgeneral>
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On Sun, 11 May 1997, David S. Miller wrote:

>    From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
>    Date: Fri, 9 May 1997 10:34:42 -0700 (MST)
> 
>    For people without freefall accounts, these files have also been placed
>    for FTP at:
> 
>    ftp://cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/TERRY.LOCK.README
>    ftp://cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/TERRY.LOCK.DIFF
>    ftp://cdrom.com/pub/FreeBSD/incoming/TERRY.NAMEI.FREEZE
> 
> Can someone put these somewhere where they can be read?

How about public_html, that machine does have a web server on it right?


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 20:30:57 1997
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From: Joseph Stein <joes@joes.users.spiritone.com>
Message-Id: <199705120329.UAA00317@joes.users.spiritone.com>
Subject: PPA driver?
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 20:29:48 -0700 (PDT)
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A few weeks ago, somebody sent me e-mail saying that they were going to
work on getting the PPA driver (for parallel port ZIP/JAZ drives) to
be a part of the sys distribution...

I have lost my e-mail archive (that's what happens when you don't do
backups :() and forgot who it was...

Any word on what the status currently is on that project?  Last e-mail
I received about it said it would probably be in by last Thursday...


joe

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 21:15:34 1997
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Message-Id: <199705120415.NAA03075@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: project: editor
In-Reply-To: <199705111229.FAA01208@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 11, 97 05:29:31 am"
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:45:11 +0930 (CST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying:
> 
> Not sure that I like tcl for this sort of thing .. however I am considering
> it . The problem that I have with tcl for end users is that it is not
> an intuitive language nor is it well structured unless one uses something
> like tcl / incr. I have to think about it a little longer and explore 
> other alternatives . 

This is the "I don't like Tcl" reflex.  It's like the gag reflex; once
you recognise it, it's easy to deal with.

I am having a lot of success teaching basic Tcl to EE's and non-programmer
types; if you stay away from the really evil things that you _can_ do with
it, it's not so evil at all.  The "11 rules of Tcl" in the Tcl(n) manpage
give you a good foundation to work with.

> 	Amancio

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 21:28:08 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199705120427.NAA03207@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: PPA driver?
In-Reply-To: <199705120329.UAA00317@joes.users.spiritone.com> from Joseph Stein at "May 11, 97 08:29:48 pm"
To: joes@joes.users.spiritone.com (Joseph Stein)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:57:17 +0930 (CST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Joseph Stein stands accused of saying:
> A few weeks ago, somebody sent me e-mail saying that they were going to
> work on getting the PPA driver (for parallel port ZIP/JAZ drives) to
> be a part of the sys distribution...
> 
> I have lost my e-mail archive (that's what happens when you don't do
> backups :() and forgot who it was...
> 
> Any word on what the status currently is on that project?  Last e-mail
> I received about it said it would probably be in by last Thursday...

I have a large box with US-export DHL labels on it under my desk.
Something tells me that it probably contains the hardware I need to do
this.

This weekend I have to drive ~2000km to make a 10-minute presentation
as an assessment component for a course I'm taking (I don't get marked
on my driving, fortunately), however next week is looking slightly
less frantic, and I expect to have some real results to show by the
end.

> joe

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 21:41:25 1997
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From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
Reply-To: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
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On Sun, 11 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:

> > You are correct I do need a scripting language .The question is which one?
> > 
> > Not sure that I like tcl for this sort of thing .. however I am considering
> > it . The problem that I have with tcl for end users is that it is not
> > an intuitive language nor is it well structured unless one uses something
> > like tcl / incr. I have to think about it a little longer and explore 
> > other alternatives . 
> 
> I think that wksh has a number of significant advantes for this
> type of work:
> 
> o	It's the SVR4 answer to the same problem
> 
> o	Script portability across UNIX clone OS's
> 
> o	Legacy Bourne shell scripts will run with few changes

*Legacy* Bourne shell scripts for a yet nonexistant document program 8-?

> 
> o	It's required for Open UNIX Standard compliance

So we could have a Open Unix compiliant document program?

> 
> 
> The only real drawback is that there isn't a pd implementation (I
> admit that this is a whopper of a drawback, but a grammar-based
> set of changes in light of the wksh book shouldn't be too hard).
> 

Well, maybe I am a bit unimaginative, but I really can't imagine myself
writing shell (Bourne, wksh, etc.) scripts in a document program 8-( 
I am afraid it wouldn't be something I (or even most people) would like.

	Sander

> 
> 					Regards,
> 					Terry Lambert
> 					terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 21:47:42 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 00:47:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>
To: Mr M P Searle <csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
cc: csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: shutdown
In-Reply-To: <13323.199705111654@nice.csv.warwick.ac.uk>
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On Sun, 11 May 1997, Mr M P Searle wrote:

> > On Sun, 11 May 1997, Mr M P Searle wrote:
> > 
> > > Would it break anything if the X server was kept running while shutting down?
> > > (Nothing else, just that one process. The root window is set before starting
> > > 'halt' - and maybe set again after the 5 seconds.)
> > > 
> > > Michael, who has too much free time...
> > 
> > I think that would mean that /usr couldn't be dismounted, which would mean
> > that you wouldn't get a clean shutdown on the /usr filesystem, and it 
> > would end up being fsck'ed on startup.  I have a big disk, and wouldn't 
> > want to have to wait on that all the time.
> 
> No - what if the server was on it's own file system? (which wasn't ever fsck'd as
> it has nothing but the server on it.) My guess is that I'd get a slow shutdown
> as not all buffers could be written to disk, but the reboot would be OK. Does
> that sound right?

Sorry for the slow answer, I just finished my OS project, and 6th cup of 
coffee (huh? whazzat?!) ... IF the X server didn't have any files in an 
unfinished state (which I couldn't guarantee, never having tried it) and 
you hacked the /etc/fstab so that it didn't do the fsck, then I think you 
would be right.  It'd be slow whenever you actually did the fsck, but not 
normally.

On any other system, I'd think it was a real bad idea, but, hmmm, my 
experience with FreeBSD's filesystems is so good, well, maybe you could 
do it.  I wouldn't, but I keep FreeBSD up for weeks at a time (except 
when my OS class forces me into DOS) so I wouldn't realize the time 
savings that someone who turns it on and off every day would see.

> 
> 
> 

----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 22:16:28 1997
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             <199705120415.NAA03075@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> 
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tnks 

I have really used tcl/tk trust me : vic, vat, tcl-snmp, bat (my own
rtp based audio tool), and several other projects one of them was
a large scale distributed object system.

	Cheers
	Amancio

>From The Desk Of Michael Smith :
> Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > Not sure that I like tcl for this sort of thing .. however I am considering
> > it . The problem that I have with tcl for end users is that it is not
> > an intuitive language nor is it well structured unless one uses something
> > like tcl / incr. I have to think about it a little longer and explore 
> > other alternatives . 
> 
> This is the "I don't like Tcl" reflex.  It's like the gag reflex; once
> you recognise it, it's easy to deal with.
> 
> I am having a lot of success teaching basic Tcl to EE's and non-programmer
> types; if you stay away from the really evil things that you _can_ do with
> it, it's not so evil at all.  The "11 rules of Tcl" in the Tcl(n) manpage
> give you a good foundation to work with.
> 
> > 	Amancio
> 
> -- 
> ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
> ]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
> ]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
> ]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
> ]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 22:43:17 1997
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From: "Troy Settle" <rewt@i-Plus.net>
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>On Sun, May 11, 1997 at 12:42:44PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 May 1997, Mr M P Searle wrote:
>>
>> > Would it break anything if the X server was kept running while
shutting down?
>> > (Nothing else, just that one process. The root window is set
before starting
>> > 'halt' - and maybe set again after the 5 seconds.)
>> >
>> > Michael, who has too much free time...
>>
>> I think that would mean that /usr couldn't be dismounted, which
would mean
>> that you wouldn't get a clean shutdown on the /usr filesystem, and
it
>> would end up being fsck'ed on startup.  I have a big disk, and
wouldn't
>> want to have to wait on that all the time.
>
>FWIW, I use 'shutdown -h now' all the time from an xterm, and have
>never observed any ill-effects...  Everything appears to shut down
>cleanly, and all the FSs apparently dismount just fine.
>

I've got 'shutdown -r now' as a menu option under fvwm. Works fine,
never had to do an fsck on rebooting.

--
Troy Settle <st@i-Plus.net>
Network Administrator, iPlus Internet Services
http://www.i-Plus.net


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sun May 11 23:04:00 1997
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             <Pine.BSF.3.96.970512073233.21119A-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> 
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Okay with respect to scripts.
I see three levels:

1. mark up language representation

2. style representation (book style, report style, etc..)

3. macro processor for doing things like bullets, tables, sections, etc...


I hate to inflict users with such things as a macro processor whose syntax
is tcl or shell like.

	Regards,
	Amancio

>From The Desk Of Narvi :
> 
> 
> On Sun, 11 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:
> 
> > > You are correct I do need a scripting language .The question is which one
?
> > > 
> > > Not sure that I like tcl for this sort of thing .. however I am consideri
ng
> > > it . The problem that I have with tcl for end users is that it is not
> > > an intuitive language nor is it well structured unless one uses something
> > > like tcl / incr. I have to think about it a little longer and explore 
> > > other alternatives . 
> > 
> > I think that wksh has a number of significant advantes for this
> > type of work:
> > 
> > o	It's the SVR4 answer to the same problem
> > 
> > o	Script portability across UNIX clone OS's
> > 
> > o	Legacy Bourne shell scripts will run with few changes
> 
> *Legacy* Bourne shell scripts for a yet nonexistant document program 8-?
> 
> > 
> > o	It's required for Open UNIX Standard compliance
> 
> So we could have a Open Unix compiliant document program?
> 
> > 
> > 
> > The only real drawback is that there isn't a pd implementation (I
> > admit that this is a whopper of a drawback, but a grammar-based
> > set of changes in light of the wksh book shouldn't be too hard).
> > 
> 
> Well, maybe I am a bit unimaginative, but I really can't imagine myself
> writing shell (Bourne, wksh, etc.) scripts in a document program 8-( 
> I am afraid it wouldn't be something I (or even most people) would like.
> 
> 	Sander
> 
> > 
> > 					Regards,
> > 					Terry Lambert
> > 					terry@lambert.org
> > ---
> > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> > or previous employers.
> > 
> 
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 00:49:05 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:50:05 +0400
From: Vadim Kolontsov <vadim@tversu.ac.ru>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: mmap()
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hello,

  this question must be old, but anyway...

  why mmap() under freebsd (at least, 2.1) almost two times slower than
read()? I've tryed to read large files, with multiple mmap()'ing file into 
buffer with size = getpagesize() * 10, and with/without madvise()...

Best regards,
Vadim.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vadim Kolontsov                                          SysAdm/Programmer 
Tver Regional Center of New Information Technologies          Networks Lab


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 00:53:45 1997
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From: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Message-Id: <199705120708.JAA21494@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: Re: sio flow control problems with 2.2?
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 09:08:14 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: tom@sdf.com, brian@awfulhak.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> This is why there are stone tablets in a cave on Mt. Ararat which
> (loosely translated) say:
> 
> 	"Thou shalt not set the port speed higher than the committed
> 	 data rate for the communications device unless thine flow
> 	 control is active and trustworthy".

which was my question in the first place.. do I have working flow
control ? I just don't know how broken are my internal modems. In my
case, with a 28.8 modem, even stty speed 19200 causes the same failure.
That would suggest a problem at the receive side, except that I don't
know how constant is the modem speed over time...

	Cheers
	Luigi
-----------------------------+--------------------------------------
Luigi Rizzo                  |  Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
email: luigi@iet.unipi.it    |  Universita' di Pisa
tel: +39-50-568533           |  via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
fax: +39-50-568522           |  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
_____________________________|______________________________________

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 00:54:43 1997
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Chuck Robey wrote:

> On Sun, 11 May 1997, Mr M P Searle wrote:
> 
> > > On Sun, 11 May 1997, Mr M P Searle wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Would it break anything if the X server was kept running while shutting down?
> > > > (Nothing else, just that one process. The root window is set before starting
> > > > 'halt' - and maybe set again after the 5 seconds.)
> > > > 
> > > > Michael, who has too much free time...
> > > 
> > > I think that would mean that /usr couldn't be dismounted, which would mean
> > > that you wouldn't get a clean shutdown onthe /usr filesystem, and it 
> > > would end up being fsck'ed on startup.  I have a big disk, and wouldn't 
> > > want to have to wait on that all the time.
> > 
> > No - what if the server was on it's own file system? (which wasn't ever fsck'd as
> > it has nothing but the server on it.) My guess is that I'd get a slow shutdown
> > as not all buffers could be written to disk, but the reboot would be OK. Does
> > that sound right?
> 
> Sorry for the slow answer, I just finished my OS project, and 6th cup of 
> coffee (huh? whazzat?!) ... IF the X server didn't have any files in an 
> unfinished state (which I couldn't guarantee, never having tried it) and 
> you hacked the /etc/fstab so that it didn't do the fsck, then I think you 
> would be right.  It'd be slow whenever you actually did the fsck, but not 
> normally.
> 
> On any other system, I'd think it was a real bad idea, but, hmmm, my 
> experience with FreeBSD's filesystems is so good, well, maybe you could 
> do it.  I wouldn't, but I keep FreeBSD up for weeks ata time (except 
> when my OS class forces me into DOS) so I wouldn't realize the time 
> savings that someone who turns it on and off every day would see.
> 

There's one other (potential) problem with this: /tmp. X keeps files open
on /tmp, and if tmp is MFS and can't be umounted strange things sometimes
happen. I remember reading on this list (or was it -questions) that 2.1.5
will not (sometimes) flush its buffers with a MFS /tmp mounted. I've never
seen it on newer systems, but it wasn't consistent on 2.1.5R either, so
you can never know.

> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
> chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
> 9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
> Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
> (301)220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
> ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> 
> 
Nadav


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 01:09:03 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199705120808.RAA05836@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
In-Reply-To: <19970507064722.04811@ct.picker.com> from Randall Hopper at "May 7, 97 06:47:22 am"
To: rhh@ct.picker.com (Randall Hopper)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:38:37 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, msmith@freebsd.org, sos@freebsd.org,
        hackers@freebsd.org
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Randall Hopper stands accused of saying:
> Michael Smith:
>  |Randall Hopper stands accused of saying:
>  |>      I'd leave it enabled in my kernel with a nifty picture if it would
>  |> auto-dismiss itself when booting gets to the syscons login prompt.
>  |
>  |Hmm, I don't actually think it should disappear with the login prompt;
>  |it should stay there being pretty if the system isn't being dinked with.
>  |
>  |Currently, I am leaning towards having it disappear on any keypress.
> 
>      Hmmm, not sure I understand where you're coming from.  If you're
> sitting at the text login prompt, why would you want the splash page to
> stay up?

If it's a server in a droid-heavy environment, eg., or otherwise needs to 
look "pretty".

>      Sounds good.  How does one make use of it?  A quick scan of the
> patched syscons.c doesn't reveal it to me.  I see where the palette is
> loaded from the BMP and where its dumped to the VGA, but I don't find any
> mention of the palette rotation (except in a comment).

That's it 8).   Seriously, I got sidetracked looking for a BMP editor that
was capable of actually letting you pick colour numbers for palette
entries and didn't sit down to write the shifter; it's quite trivial.

> Randall

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 01:13:06 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199705120811.RAA05876@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
In-Reply-To: <199705070637.IAA05436@sos.freebsd.dk> from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=F8ren_Schmidt?= at "May 7, 97 08:37:54 am"
To: sos@sos.freebsd.dk (Søren Schmidt)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:41:29 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, rhh@ct.picker.com, msmith@FreeBSD.ORG,
        sos@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Søren Schmidt stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > Currently, I am leaning towards having it disappear on any keypress.
> 
> That one is easy :)

Yeah.  I think that it should go away and never come back, TBH.  Bringing 
it back is a PITA; having it volatile means that I can follow Bruce's
suggestion of having it loaded by the bootstrap, unpacked into display
memory and then completely ignored.

> > There's some provision for palette rotation already; the real problem is 
> > just arranging for the rotation on a useful basis - the console driver
> > only runs when text is output, so colours would only shift during 
> > character output (not a bad idea though).
> 
> No, the redraw rutine runs periodically even if there is no output (it
> just doesn't do anything), this can be used for animation 20 steps
> (IIRC) a second. There can be no animation during the probe fase (or
> atleast just a little) as the system timers aren't running yet..

Sorry, I meant that during the probe phase the driver only ran while
text was being output.

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 01:31:00 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199705120817.RAA05938@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: sio flow control problems with 2.2?
In-Reply-To: <199705120708.JAA21494@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from Luigi Rizzo at "May 12, 97 09:08:14 am"
To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:47:56 +0930 (CST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, tom@sdf.com, brian@awfulhak.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Luigi Rizzo stands accused of saying:
> 
> which was my question in the first place.. do I have working flow
> control ? I just don't know how broken are my internal modems. In my
> case, with a 28.8 modem, even stty speed 19200 causes the same failure.
> That would suggest a problem at the receive side, except that I don't
> know how constant is the modem speed over time...

Um, you were using PPP, correct?   And you are seeing missing lines, 
dropped characters, etc?

You won't get this from broken flow control, unless you are using a
UDP-based communications tool.

If you are using user-mode PPP, "HDLC" errors are the giveaway for flow
control problems.

> 	Luigi

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 01:49:44 1997
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To: Chris Coleman <chris@bb.cc.wa.us>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 3.0-050297-SNAP C++ Problem. 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 May 1997 13:32:23 MST."
             <Pine.NEB.3.94.970508132720.5196A-100000@aries.bb.cc.wa.us> 
X-Face: (W@z~5kg?"+5?!2kHP)+l369.~a@oTl^8l87|/s8"EH?Uk~P<Wc^}f75I|456ez/M
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:48:47 +1000
From: David Nugent <davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au>
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> I am writing a program in C++ and everything was working fine on FBSD
> 2.1.7.  Then when I upgraded to 3.0-SNAP my program wouldn't make.  It
> gave me linker errors missing things like "_cout" and the other C++ Stream
> stuff.  I removed the libg++.so.4.0 library temporarily  and compiled the
> program again.  It compiled, but now when I try to declare a fstream
> variable the program crashes and core dumps.  Any help would be
> appreciated.

Put libg++.so.4.0 and add -lstdc++ to the command line.

All you achieve by removing libg++.so.4.0 is to either link
against the static version of the library or worse, an older
version of libg++.

davidn@labs[~]> cat fstest.cc
// fstest.cc
#include <fstream.h>

int
main(void)
{
  ofstream file("testing");

  file << "Hello, this is a test" << endl;
  return 0;
}
davidn@labs[~]> gcc -O -o fstest fstest.cc -lstdc++
davidn@labs[~]> ls -lF fstest*
-rwxr-xr-x  1 davidn  davidn  13712 May 12 18:43 fstest*
-rw-r--r--  1 davidn  davidn    141 May 12 18:42 fstest.cc
davidn@labs[~]> ./fstest
davidn@labs[~]> cat testing
Hello, this is a test
davidn@labs[~]> _


iostream used to be part of libg++, but has now moved to stdc++,
along with all of the other c++ standard classes (mainly stl).

Regards,
David


David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia
Voice +61-3-9791-9547  Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507  3:632/348@fidonet
davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 03:01:48 1997
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: g++ shared library segfaults 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 10 May 1997 08:31:42 +0200."
             <19970510083142.OD64404@uriah.heep.sax.de> 
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:01:29 +1000
From: David Nugent <davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au>
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J"org writes:
> As Justin T. Gibbs wrote:
> 
> >    * As described above, the scope of variables declared in the
> >      initialization part of a for statement has been changed; such
> >      variables are now visible only in the loop body.  Use
> >      `-fno-for-scope' to get the old behavior.  You'll need this flag
> >      to build groff version 1.09, Ptolemy, and many other free software
> >      packages.
> 
> Du-oh.  While i always considered it poor style to declare a variable
> inside a for statement, when it was intended to use it later on, i
> think that's a fairly drastic change in the semantics.

Indeed it is and was. It broke many things at the time. I still
have to fix the occasional program by moving the declaration outside
of the for() statement.

This was part of a wider set of changes relating to scope and the
semantics of declarations, but this is the only area which actually
caused working code to break. Doing it was necessary for reasons of
consistency since they wanted to support if ((int x = blah) ... and
so on, otherwise it would have become a language wart (or ANOTHER
language wart, where C++ is concerned :-)). The change did actually
simplify the rules from the point of view of parsing c++ code.


Regards,
David


David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia
Voice +61-3-9791-9547  Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507  3:632/348@fidonet
davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 03:15:38 1997
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From: Søren Schmidt <sos@sos.freebsd.dk>
Message-Id: <199705121016.MAA01905@sos.freebsd.dk>
Subject: Digiboard RealPort protocol ??
To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:16:11 +0200 (MEST)
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Anybody having any info on how this is implemented ??

If I can get my hands on this, I'll write a driver for
it asap, if I need to reverseengineer it, well, it will
take a little longer, but it is legal here in the EU :)

(Digiboard are you listening??)

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt               (sos@FreeBSD.org)               FreeBSD Core Team
                Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 03:30:52 1997
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From: Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com (Guido van Rooij)
Message-Id: <199705121029.MAA00256@bsd.lss.cp.philips.com>
Subject: Re: Hp interface card
To: guido@bsd.lss.cp.philips.com (guido)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:29:32 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-Reply-To: <no.id> from guido at "May 6, 97 01:12:01 pm"
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guido wrote:
> Is anyone working on a driver for the HP J3171A 10/100 Base-T lan adpater?
> It is the one that comes with the E40 model Pentium Pro netserver.
> 

It turns out this thing *is* a Intel EtherExpress PRO/100

-Guido

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 03:40:57 1997
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From: Mr M P Searle <csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: shutdown
In-Reply-To: <199705120539.BAA04383@Radford.i-Plus.net> from Troy Settle at "May 12, 97 01:41:41 pm"
To: rewt@i-plus.net (Troy Settle)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:38:22 +0100 (BST)
Cc: dmaddox@scsn.net, hackers@freebsd.org
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> >On Sun, May 11, 1997 at 12:42:44PM -0400, Chuck Robey wrote:
> >> On Sun, 11 May 1997, Mr M P Searle wrote:
> >>
> >> > Would it break anything if the X server was kept running while
> shutting down?
> >> > (Nothing else, just that one process. The root window is set
> before starting
> >> > 'halt' - and maybe set again after the 5 seconds.)
> >> >
> >> > Michael, who has too much free time...
> >>
> >> I think that would mean that /usr couldn't be dismounted, which
> would mean
> >> that you wouldn't get a clean shutdown on the /usr filesystem, and
> it
> >> would end up being fsck'ed on startup.  I have a big disk, and
> wouldn't
> >> want to have to wait on that all the time.
> >
> >FWIW, I use 'shutdown -h now' all the time from an xterm, and have
> >never observed any ill-effects...  Everything appears to shut down
> >cleanly, and all the FSs apparently dismount just fine.
> >
> 
> I've got 'shutdown -r now' as a menu option under fvwm. Works fine,
> never had to do an fsck on rebooting.
> 

Well, I've always done 'halt' or 'reboot' from xterms (I think they are the
same as shutdown -h now or shutdown -r now.) with no problems, but that
wasn't what I meant - I meant not killing the X server when halt/rebooting.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 03:46:15 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:38:16 +0000 (GMT)
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org
Subject: ppp problems
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Sometimes ppp logs how much time I was connected and sometimes it doesn't.

I always shut the link down with 'close' and the I do a 'show log'
and sometimes it reports 'Connected time: xxx secs' and sometimes
it doesn't.

What am I doing wrong? 

Please help me...

Thanks,
Jorge


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 03:55:23 1997
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From: Mr M P Searle <csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: shutdown
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95-heb-2.07.970512105124.11876A-100000@csd> from Nadav Eiron at "May 12, 97 10:53:58 am"
To: nadav@cs.technion.ac.il (Nadav Eiron)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:54:11 +0100 (BST)
Cc: chuckr@mat.net, csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk, hackers@freebsd.org
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> 
> 
> On Mon, 12 May 1997, Chuck Robey wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 11 May 1997, Mr M P Searle wrote:
> > 
> > > > On Sun, 11 May 1997, Mr M P Searle wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Would it break anything if the X server was kept running while shutting down?
> > > > > (Nothing else, just that one process. The root window is set before starting
> > > > > 'halt' - and maybe set again after the 5 seconds.)
> > > > > 
> > > > > Michael, who has too much free time...
> > > > 
> > > > I think that would mean that /usr couldn't be dismounted, which would mean
> > > > that you wouldn't get a clean shutdown onthe /usr filesystem, and it 
> > > > would end up being fsck'ed on startup.  I have a big disk, and wouldn't 
> > > > want to have to wait on that all the time.
> > > 
> > > No - what if the server was on it's own file system? (which wasn't ever fsck'd as
> > > it has nothing but the server on it.) My guess is that I'd get a slow shutdown
> > > as not all buffers could be written to disk, but the reboot would be OK. Does
> > > that sound right?
> > 
> > Sorry for the slow answer, I just finished my OS project, and 6th cup of 
> > coffee (huh? whazzat?!) ... IF the X server didn't have any files in an 
> > unfinished state (which I couldn't guarantee, never having tried it) and 
> > you hacked the /etc/fstab so that it didn't do the fsck, then I think you 
> > would be right.  It'd be slow whenever you actually did the fsck, but not 
> > normally.
> > 
> > On any other system, I'd think it was a real bad idea, but, hmmm, my 
> > experience with FreeBSD's filesystems is so good, well, maybe you could 
> > do it.  I wouldn't, but I keep FreeBSD up for weeks ata time (except 
> > when my OS class forces me into DOS) so I wouldn't realize the time 
> > savings that someone who turns it on and off every day would see.
> > 
>

Well, if it's on its own filesystem and doesn't touch anything else, no
problem whatever. If it does touch something else, I'd have to move it to
the separate filesystem (assuming it's just a few things.)

Time savings?! It takes <1 second to kill everything, plus the 5 second wait
and maybe a second to flush buffers. This is just for a splash screen type
thing.
 
> There's one other (potential) problem with this: /tmp. X keeps files open
> on /tmp, and if tmp is MFS and can't be umounted strange things sometimes
> happen. I remember reading on this list (or was it -questions) that 2.1.5
> will not (sometimes) flush its buffers with a MFS /tmp mounted. I've never
> seen it on newer systems, but it wasn't consistent on 2.1.5R either, so
> you can never know.
> 

Well, my /tmp is MFS, and right now I'm still on 2.1.0 (soon to be 3.0). Can
X be told to put its temp files somewhere else (like /var/tmp)? Actually,
I've seen it fail to flush all buffers before. I assumed it was some ancient
bug that would be fixed when I upgraded.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 03:55:49 1997
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Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705090127.SAA29328@phaeton.artisoft.com>
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> *               F_CNVT          Convert NFS handle to open fd
> 
> Notes:  *       F_CNVT requires a covenant between the NFS lockd in
>                 user space, and the kernel, based on the wire
>                 representation of NFS file handles propagated to
>                 the lockd process.  Because I don't know what this
>                 is from the incomplete user space rpc.lockd code,
>                 this function is stubbed to return ENOSYS.  Once
>                 this information is documented, it will be a simple
>                 matter to call FHTOVP on the user's behalf.

It's not documented in the spec either!  There is a bit of clarification
in the NFS V3 spec (which sadly documents only the delta from old
locking to new locking, rather than re-specifying the whole thing):

  "in the NLM version 3 protocol, the file handle is a fixed-length NFS
   version 2 file handle, which is encoded as a byte count followed by
   a byte array.  In the NFS version 3 protocol, the file handle is
   already variable length, so it is copied directly into the _fh_ field.
   That is, the first four bytes of the _fh_ field are the same as the 
   byte count in an NFS version 3 protocol _nfs_fh3_.  The rest of the
   _fh_ field contains the byte array from the NFS version 3 protocol
   _nfs_fh3_."

[Note for added confusion that the locking protcol for NFS v2 is NLM v3,
and the locking protocol for NFS v3 is NLM v4 !].

I found, last time I looked at this, that the encoding for NFS v2 was
fairly obvious when you looked at a trace of existing implementations
talking to each other; however, I don't have a pair of third-party
NFS v3 implementations available to check. 

>                 Note that POSIX close semantics regarding advisory
>                 locking are antagonistic to an NFS lockd at this
>                 time.  I have not written a POSIX namespace override
>                 option for open or for fcntl() at this time.  This
>                 means the user space NFS lockd will not be able to
>                 coelesce open fd's, and must lazy-close them based
>                 on stat information.  This will severely restrict
>                 the number of simultaneous locking clients that can
>                 ne active at one time until these semantic overrides
>                 go in.

I don't see why the POSIX close semantics are a problem here - I would
expect the lockd to hold only one open fd for each file handle (with the
owner/pid fields in the lock distinguishing individual clients).
Of course, the limit on open fds per process is potentially limiting
on a single-process lockd, but there is no obvious way round this.

>         **      The F_UNLKSYS function operates on a single process
>                 open file table.  This means that you can not have
>                 peer-based load balancing of NFS lockd clients.  This
>                 could be rewritten to travers the system open file
>                 table instead of the per process open file table.  If
>                 this were done, the restriction would be lifted.  I
>                 am personally more interested in a multithreaded NFS
>                 lockd instead of a multiple instances of an NFS lockd,
>                 so I have not done this.

Is this how you plan to handle blocking locks?  The one thing that you
don't appear to have provided is a mechanism for waking up the lockd when
a previously unavailable lock becomes free (so that lockd can inform the
client).  If the lockd is multi-threaded to the extent that it can afford
to have one of its threads go into a blocking fcntl() call for each
outstanding lock, then this requirement goes away - but that assumes
kernel threads, and also presents a problem for implementation of the
nlm_cancel from the client (which cancels a previous blocking lock request). 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 04:00:26 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:59:40 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Michael Beckmann <petzi@apfel.de>
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To: hackers@freebsd.org, isp@freebsd.org
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Greetings,

has BIND 4.9.5-P1 already been integrated in any release
of FreeBSD ? Is anyone working on this ?

Michael


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 04:32:36 1997
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To: Charles Henrich <henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu>
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: divert and ethernet addresses? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 11 May 1997 15:14:54 EDT."
             <19970511151454.39414@crh.cl.msu.edu> 
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> Is there anyway to get a divert that sees the full ethernet packet so work can
> be done based on the source/destination ethernet addresses?

This is what /dev/bpf* are for AFAIK.  But I've never had the
pleasure of doing anything tcpdump'ish.

> -Crh
> 
>        Charles Henrich     Michigan State University     henrich@msu.edu
> 
>                          http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 04:46:09 1997
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To: Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com (Guido van Rooij)
cc: guido@bsd.lss.cp.philips.com (guido), freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Hp interface card 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 12:29:32 +0200."
             <199705121029.MAA00256@bsd.lss.cp.philips.com> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 04:45:44 -0700
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>guido wrote:
>> Is anyone working on a driver for the HP J3171A 10/100 Base-T lan adpater?
>> It is the one that comes with the E40 model Pentium Pro netserver.
>> 
>
>It turns out this thing *is* a Intel EtherExpress PRO/100

   Pro/100 or Pro/100B? They are completely different cards. The Pro/100B
uses the 82557 and is supported under FreeBSD. The Pro/100 is not.

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 05:02:48 1997
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Subject: Re: Hp interface card
To: dg@root.com
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:57:37 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: Guido.vanRooij@nl.cis.philips.com, guido@bsd.lss.cp.philips.com,
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In-Reply-To: <199705121145.EAA04703@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "May 12, 97 04:45:44 am"
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David Greenman wrote:
> >guido wrote:
> >> Is anyone working on a driver for the HP J3171A 10/100 Base-T lan adpater?
> >> It is the one that comes with the E40 model Pentium Pro netserver.
> >> 
> >
> >It turns out this thing *is* a Intel EtherExpress PRO/100
> 
>    Pro/100 or Pro/100B? They are completely different cards. The Pro/100B
> uses the 82557 and is supported under FreeBSD. The Pro/100 is not.

It is a Intel EtherExpress PRO/100B. I didn't know the B was that important ;-)
(covered by your fxp driver).

-Guido

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 05:11:52 1997
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From: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Message-Id: <199705121130.NAA21961@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
Subject: How do I mount an old (1.1 or 2.0, pre-slice) disk ?
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 13:30:35 +0200 (MET DST)
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Well the subject says it all... is there an easy way  on FreeBSD
2.2 to mount & read (at least, writing to it would be nice but is
secondary at this point) a disk formatted with FreeBSD 1.1 or 2.0
(pre-slice) ? The disk also has an MSDOS partition on it.

	Thanks
	Luigi
-----------------------------+--------------------------------------
Luigi Rizzo                  |  Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
email: luigi@iet.unipi.it    |  Universita' di Pisa
tel: +39-50-568533           |  via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
fax: +39-50-568522           |  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
_____________________________|______________________________________

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 05:39:03 1997
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Subject: Re: BIND 4.9.5 ?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970512124149.17068A-100000@bsd.fs.bauing.th-darmstadt.de> from Michael Beckmann at "May 12, 97 12:59:40 pm"
To: petzi@apfel.de (Michael Beckmann)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 05:38:39 -0700 (PDT)
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Michael Beckmann said:
>Greetings,
>
>has BIND 4.9.5-P1 already been integrated in any release
>of FreeBSD ? Is anyone working on this ?
>
>Michael
>
>

More to the point, when will BIND 8.1 be integrated into the release tree ?


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch        |   Another day closer to a   |    FreeBSD 2.2.1
jgrosch@sirius.com  |     Micro$oft free world    | UNIX for the masses


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 05:45:21 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:44:33 +1000
From: David Dawes <dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au>
To: David Nugent <davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: xdm in /usr/X11R6/etc/rc.d problem
References: <19970428170203.28285@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> <199704290713.RAA29511@labs.usn.blaze.net.au>
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On Tue, Apr 29, 1997 at 05:13:55PM +1000, David Nugent wrote:
>> I have no idea.  I don't recall seeing any patches for this being
>> submitted to us at XFree86.Org.  I don't have any machines running
>> -current at the moment.
>
>Ok. I thought I saw some comment that some "basic" support had been
>added, but perhaps not. This would be fairly easy to do, so I'll
>send diffs<tm> as soon as I can make some time. Basically all that's
>needed is to change setlogin()/setuid()/initgroups() to a
>setusercontext() call, but depending on the environment this can
>get kind of hairy. setusercontext() does all sorts of things in
>addition to that, including setting resource limits and system,
>umask and user-defined environment settings (and soon, user-defined
>resource limits, within the administrative hard limits).
>
>
>> I'd also like to see something that allows us to remove the direct
>> utmp/wtmp manipulation from xdm and xterm.
>
>Well, even if the wtmp/utmp format is not revised today as we've
>tentatively planned in FreeBSD, there's no reason why we can't at
>least provide an API.

Is any of this likely to be ready in the next week or so?  I'm asking
because we'll be finalising the XFree86 3.3 release *very* soon, and if
any of these things are ready they could be included in that release.

David

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 05:46:30 1997
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In-Reply-To: <199705111907.MAA15415@austin.polstra.com> from John Polstra at "May 11, 97 12:07:45 pm"
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> The "right" way to do it on older systems is to set "CPLUSPLUSLIB=true"
> in the Makefile (assuming that <bsd.lib.mk> is being used).  If
> you're not using <bsd.lib.mk> then yes, it's necessary to manually
> link in c++rt0.o for C++ shared libraries.
> 
> As you mentioned, on recent -current systems, "gcc -shared" does the
> right thing, and CPLUSPLUSLIB is not needed.  I'm going to bring
> that same functionality into the -2.2 branch soon.

Ptolemy will be a port that uses gmake.  "-shared" for both branches
will be good.

-- 
Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com)   Realtime Machine Control and Simulation
HD Associates, Inc.               Voice: 508 433 6936

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 05:48:39 1997
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From: Yves Lepage <yves@CC.McGill.CA>
Date: Mon, 12 May 97 08:48:31 -0400
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Subject: An idea, it is possibly good
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Hi all,

here's an idea to enhance file systems's usefulness: virtual partitioning.

Let's say I have a FreeBSD system on one big partition. Virtual partititioning would
allow me for example to 'reserve' space for specified directories (at mount time let's say).
Examples:

1- / is 1GB, I reserve 250 MB for /var/log. It means / will get full at 750MB.
2- / is 2GB, I reserve 750 MB for / not including /var/log. It means, /var/log can never
   fill / up. / gets full at 750MB and /var/log gets full at 1250MB.
3- / is 2GB, I reserve 750 MB for / not including /var/log. I reserve 250MB for /var/log. The rest
   is free unallocated space I may choose to reserve/allocate later, like spare space.

Ideally, the reservations could be made/altered on a mounted file system, possibly
using a remount with options.

I'm not the one who's going to implement that, I am just providing the idea.

Regards,
Yves Lepage

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 06:40:56 1997
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No reply to this yet after posting to -questions, so I'll try here.
I don't believe 2.2.* is really -current any more, is it?

I'd like to get a newly-installed 2.2.1 system up to date.  I loaded
everything from the CD, and finished a `make world' yesterday (just to see
how it went -- 133MH Pentium, 32MB, 4GB Micropolis took about 4 hrs 15
min).

I followed the instructions in src-2.2-CTM-README on ftp.freebsd.org; it
said that if I wanted to update 2.2.1, I needed to start with
src-2.2.0217.gz.  I tried, with the following results.

: adler$~; cd /usr/src
: adler$/usr/src; echo "src-2.2 216" > .ctm_status
: adler$/usr/src; ctm -v /usr2/2.2/src-2.2.02*
Working on </usr2/2.2/src-2.2.0217.gz>
  FN: release/sysinstall/help/hardware.hlp md5 mismatch.
  FN: release/sysinstall/help/hardware.hlp edit fails.
Exit(104)
: adler$/usr/src; 

It looks like the README is wrong; any suggestions as to where I should
start?

Thanks...
--
Rich Kuhns			rjk@grauel.com
PO Box 6249			Tel: (765)477-6000 \
100 Sawmill Road				    x319
Lafayette, IN  47903		     (800)489-4891 /

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 06:59:25 1997
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data general's AOS operating system had control-point directories, in 
which quota-type stuff could be set. AN interesting idea, with obvious 
applications ...
ron

Ron Minnich                |"I would point them out but ...
rminnich@sarnoff.com       |  I have no hands." -- Coconut Monkey
(609)-734-3120             | (see CM at www.pcgamer.com/coconut.html)
ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 07:17:54 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
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At 04:53 PM 5/12/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote:
>Dennis stands accused of saying:
>> >> Kinda pathetic, really.  Especially from people (30 or 40 cards?)
>> >> that obviously have the resources, and would be quite happy to 
>> >> benefit from someone else's hard work at no expense to themselves.
>> 
>> I see that the FreeBSD team has no pride in their work...whoever said this.
>
>Uhh.  Dennis, pride doesn't pay the bills.  Pride doesn't buy hardware
>for you to support.

It this a line from Animal Farm?

>
>Pride is what makes us want to work on FreeBSD rather than take cushy 
>feet-on-the-desk admin jobs and spend the weekend four-wheeling around
>the outback.
>
>> Its the guys with the "resources" that are giving you hackers a pen to play
>> in....they are the ones making the market so that the vendors answer the
>> phone when you can and ask them for specs.
>
>Vendors answer the phone?  Hah!  You gotta be dreaming.  I've been
>hounding vendors for chip programming details for years, and the scene
>really hasn't changed a lot over time.  The "nice" people still make
>data free, the "nasty" ones still hoard it jealously.

Would be nice, wouldn't it?

Certain things you're just not gonna get...so deal with it. Do you think
that SMC
is gonna build another card with DEC-like chip when anyone with a $500. layout
program can clone the board and steal their market? Its getting so easy to
clone
hardware, particularly with single chip solutions, that you're going to see
big vendors
refuse to use parts that have public specs...like you said, you gotta pay
the bills, and
it doesnt pay to build hardware with readily available hardware with public
specs.

Dennis




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 07:18:24 1997
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From: Charles Henrich <henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu>
To: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: divert and ethernet addresses?
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On the subject of Re: divert and ethernet addresses?, Brian Somers stated:

> > Is there anyway to get a divert that sees the full ethernet packet so work can
> > be done based on the source/destination ethernet addresses?
> 
> This is what /dev/bpf* are for AFAIK.  But I've never had the
> pleasure of doing anything tcpdump'ish.

Yea, but does /dev/bpf allow you to write to it? 

-Crh

       Charles Henrich     Michigan State University     henrich@msu.edu

                         http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 07:32:29 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:35:31 -0400
From: John Duncan <jddst19+@pitt.edu>
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Yves Lepage wrote:

> here's an idea to enhance file systems's usefulness: virtual partitioning.
> 
> Let's say I have a FreeBSD system on one big partition. Virtual partititioning would
> allow me for example to 'reserve' space for specified directories (at mount time let's say).

> Ideally, the reservations could be made/altered on a mounted file system, possibly
> using a remount with options.

Hmm. Yes, but I'm recalling a couple of lines from my high school
code of conduct:

13) Parents are asked to encourage their children to stay in school
    and to help them not break the school code.

14) Parents are also to encourage their children to partition their
    disks in such a way that the minimum speed/space tradeoff
    is attained, with regards to what will be stored on the disks.

---
I'd say that "virtual partitioning" is a good idea in as much as
it is speedy to resize and rehash, _but_, I'm not sure if it's
release-style material. Anyone with a backup tape can repartition a
disk to find a better spacetime relationship in a matter of hours,
and such drastic action probably only needs to be taken when the
circumstances are dire. So, for "freebsd the server", it seems
unnecessary when the entire disk can fit on one or two tapes, or in
the autoloader. 

Such a package may be useful for the guy who is using "freebsd
the workstation", and he parts his disk such that he has a 300-meg
root, 50-meg var, and 2k user... Yeah, I think that this would
be good functionality.

It might be a good idea to stray the source tree into a genuine
server and workstation install, with the server version containing
more of the stuff in source and with many more customizable options,
self-compiling to handle certain variances when installed, and the
workstation arriving in an easily installable binary format,
with a separate cd of the source snapshot. Workstation users
probably shouldn't have to recompile a kernel in order to remove
some of the server-esque options. Probably many workstation-type
things could be placed at the user level, or at least in lkms. Servers,
on the other hand, may or may not need certain functionality, like
kernel ppp. It's annoying for servers to have to install a binary then
hack the config files for what they actually want, when it could have
been done once-and-for-all when the beast was created.

But I won't self-serve too much, unless anyone cares what I have
to say.

-John

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 07:54:19 1997
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Subject: Re: divert and ethernet addresses?
In-Reply-To: <19970512101815.52772@crh.cl.msu.edu> from Charles Henrich at "May 12, 97 10:18:15 am"
To: henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu (Charles Henrich)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 00:53:38 +1000 (EST)
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> On the subject of Re: divert and ethernet addresses?, Brian Somers stated:
> 
> Yea, but does /dev/bpf allow you to write to it? 
> 
> -Crh
> 
>        Charles Henrich     Michigan State University     henrich@msu.edu

Yes.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 08:07:37 1997
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From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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Michael Smith wrote:
> 
> This is the "I don't like Tcl" reflex.  It's like the gag reflex; once
> you recognise it, it's easy to deal with.
> 
I don't have anything against Tcl, but it keeps getting in the way when
I need iTcl or another Tcl version. I hate it because it's in the base
distribution, not because it's Tcl 8-).

Pedro

> 
> --
> ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
> ]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
> ]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
> ]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
> ]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[


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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:42:31 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970512101113.00bac288@etinc.com> from "dennis" at May 12, 97 10:10:57 am
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Dennis said:

> Would be nice, wouldn't it?
> 
> Certain things you're just not gonna get...so deal with it. Do you
> think that SMC is gonna build another card with DEC-like chip when
> anyone with a $500. layout program can clone the board and steal
> their market? Its getting so easy to clone hardware, particularly
> with single chip solutions, that you're going to see big vendors

as it is to build them in the first place, so you cannot really
complain about cloning the board. As an example, the Matrox Meteor
is essentially the same board as described in the Philips data
sheets, so everybody could have built it without the need for
cloning the board. I assume it is the same for the 21x4x, Bt848
and other single-chip PCI devices.

The chip manufacturer has 3 options:

    1.  sell the chip in very high volumes because specs are public
	and anyone is able to write a driver;

    2.  sell the specs and device to selected manufacturers, with
	a probably smaller market but higher margins on each chip;

    3.  build the card itself so cloning is impossible because both
	the chip and the specs are not available.

I don't think #2 is a viable option, though, except perhaps for special
HW which would not have high volumes in any case. And in those cases
you would probably chose a well reputed manufacturer anyways.

	Luigi
-----------------------------+--------------------------------------
Luigi Rizzo                  |  Dip. di Ingegneria dell'Informazione
email: luigi@iet.unipi.it    |  Universita' di Pisa
tel: +39-50-568533           |  via Diotisalvi 2, 56126 PISA (Italy)
fax: +39-50-568522           |  http://www.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/
_____________________________|______________________________________

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 10:50:28 1997
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: omniORB port to FreeBSD
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:48:06 -0700
From: "Russell L. Carter" <rcarter@consys.com>
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Any orbaholics interested in working with me to
port omniORB to FreeBSD pthreads please drop me a line.  The C++
binding is very attractive.  ILU works fine of course but
the C++ binding is too flaky to use right now.

Having both working ACE and a C++ ORB is cool indeed...

Russell


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To: rcarter@consys.com
Subject: FYI: Free CORBA 2 ORB for C++ available now
From: Sai-Lai Lo <S.Lo@orl.co.uk>
X-UIDL: 2bd011e2d1c63da0bdce204fe943939e
Status: O


       *******  Free CORBA 2 ORB for C++ available now  *******

                                      
The Olivetti and Oracle Research Laboratory has made available the first
public release of omniORB (version 2.2.0). We also refer to this version
as omniORB2.

omniORB2 is copyright Olivetti & Oracle Research Laboratory. It is free
software. The programs in omniORB2 are distributed under the GNU General
Public Licence as published by the Free Software Foundation. The libraries
in omniORB2 are distributed under the GNU Library General Public
Licence.

Source code and binary distributions are available from our Web pages:

         http://www.orl.co.uk/omniORB/omniORB.html


Technical Highlights
====================

omniORB2 implements specification 2.0 of the Common Object Request 
Broker Architecture (CORBA).

    - C++ language bindings are supported. The mapping conforms to 
      the latest revision of the CORBA specification.

    - The Internet Inter-ORB Protocol (IIOP) is used as the native protocol.

    - The omniORB2 runtime is fully multithreaded. It uses native platform 
      thread support encapsulated with a small class library, omnithread,
      to abstract away from differences in native thread APIs.

    - A COS Naming Service, omniNames, is provided.

    - The following platforms are supported:
 
      o Solaris 2.5 / Sun SparcCompiler C++ version 4.2
      o Digital Unix 3.2 / DEC C++ compiler version 5.5
      o x86 Linux 2.0 / GNU C++ compiler version 2.7.2 / Linuxthreads 0.5
      o x86 Windows NT / Windows 95 / Visual C++ version 4.2

      It should be straightforward to port omniORB2 to any platform 
      which supports POSIX style threads, BSD style sockets and has a 
      decent C++ compiler which supports exceptions.

    - It has been tested for interoperability via IIOP with other ORBs, 
      such as Iona Orbix 2.1 MT, Iona OrbixWeb 2.0.1, 
      Visigenic Visibroker for C++, and HP ORB Plus 2.5.

Work in progress
================

omniORB2 is not yet a complete implementation of the CORBA core. The
following features are not supported in the current release. 
Support for these features will be included shortly in
a future release of omniORB2.

    - `Typecode' and the type `Any' are not supported. 

    - The Dynamic Invocation Interface (DII) is not supported. 

    - The Dynamic Skeleton Interface (DSI) is not supported. 


Missing features
================

The following features are missing from omniORB2. We are not 
currently planning on adding support for these features.

    - The BOA only supports the persistent server activation policy. Other
      dynamic activation and deactivation polices are not supported.

    - omniORB2 does not has its own Interface Repository.




------- End of Forwarded Message




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 11:27:30 1997
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To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: project: editor 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 09:40:16 PDT."
             <337747F0.56BF@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> 
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Thats a different story and we should upgrade our tcl . A few interesting
things are happening at Sun -- webtk , a tk based web server, etc...

	Tnks,
	Amancio


>From The Desk Of "Pedro F. Giffuni" :
> Michael Smith wrote:
> > 
> > This is the "I don't like Tcl" reflex.  It's like the gag reflex; once
> > you recognise it, it's easy to deal with.
> > 
> I don't have anything against Tcl, but it keeps getting in the way when
> I need iTcl or another Tcl version. I hate it because it's in the base
> distribution, not because it's Tcl 8-).
> 
> Pedro
> 
> > 
> > --
> > ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
> > ]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
> > ]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
> > ]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
> > ]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 11:30:45 1997
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Subject: Re: omniORB port to FreeBSD 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 10:48:06 PDT."
             <199705121748.KAA14166@conceptual.com> 
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Cool, I am interested and we do need someone to keep track of such 
things as ACE, ILU, and now omniORB 8)

	Cheers,
	Amancio


>From The Desk Of "Russell L. Carter" :
> 
> Any orbaholics interested in working with me to
> port omniORB to FreeBSD pthreads please drop me a line.  The C++
> binding is very attractive.  ILU works fine of course but
> the C++ binding is too flaky to use right now.
> 
> Having both working ACE and a C++ ORB is cool indeed...
> 
> Russell
> 
> 
> ------- Forwarded Message
> 
> Return-Path: POPmail
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> Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:49:44 +0100
> Message-Id: <199705121649.RAA08484@santaka.cam-orl.co.uk>
> To: rcarter@consys.com
> Subject: FYI: Free CORBA 2 ORB for C++ available now
> From: Sai-Lai Lo <S.Lo@orl.co.uk>
> X-UIDL: 2bd011e2d1c63da0bdce204fe943939e
> Status: O
> 
> 
       *******  Free CORBA 2 ORB for C++ available now  *******
> 
>                                       
> The Olivetti and Oracle Research Laboratory has made available the first
> public release of omniORB (version 2.2.0). We also refer to this version
> as omniORB2.
> 
> omniORB2 is copyright Olivetti & Oracle Research Laboratory. It is free
> software. The programs in omniORB2 are distributed under the GNU General
> Public Licence as published by the Free Software Foundation. The libraries
> in omniORB2 are distributed under the GNU Library General Public
> Licence.
> 
> Source code and binary distributions are available from our Web pages:
> 
>          http://www.orl.co.uk/omniORB/omniORB.html
> 
> 
> Technical Highlights
> ====================
> 
> omniORB2 implements specification 2.0 of the Common Object Request 
> Broker Architecture (CORBA).
> 
>     - C++ language bindings are supported. The mapping conforms to 
>       the latest revision of the CORBA specification.
> 
>     - The Internet Inter-ORB Protocol (IIOP) is used as the native protocol.
> 
>     - The omniORB2 runtime is fully multithreaded. It uses native platform 
>       thread support encapsulated with a small class library, omnithread,
>       to abstract away from differences in native thread APIs.
> 
>     - A COS Naming Service, omniNames, is provided.
> 
>     - The following platforms are supported:
>  
>       o Solaris 2.5 / Sun SparcCompiler C++ version 4.2
>       o Digital Unix 3.2 / DEC C++ compiler version 5.5
>       o x86 Linux 2.0 / GNU C++ compiler version 2.7.2 / Linuxthreads 0.5
>       o x86 Windows NT / Windows 95 / Visual C++ version 4.2
> 
>       It should be straightforward to port omniORB2 to any platform 
>       which supports POSIX style threads, BSD style sockets and has a 
>       decent C++ compiler which supports exceptions.
> 
>     - It has been tested for interoperability via IIOP with other ORBs, 
>       such as Iona Orbix 2.1 MT, Iona OrbixWeb 2.0.1, 
>       Visigenic Visibroker for C++, and HP ORB Plus 2.5.
> 
> Work in progress
> ================
> 
> omniORB2 is not yet a complete implementation of the CORBA core. The
> following features are not supported in the current release. 
> Support for these features will be included shortly in
> a future release of omniORB2.
> 
>     - `Typecode' and the type `Any' are not supported. 
> 
>     - The Dynamic Invocation Interface (DII) is not supported. 
> 
>     - The Dynamic Skeleton Interface (DSI) is not supported. 
> 
> 
> Missing features
> ================
> 
> The following features are missing from omniORB2. We are not 
> currently planning on adding support for these features.
> 
>     - The BOA only supports the persistent server activation policy. Other
>       dynamic activation and deactivation polices are not supported.
> 
>     - omniORB2 does not has its own Interface Repository.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------- End of Forwarded Message
> 
> 
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 11:31:23 1997
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Subject: Re: project: editor
To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:23:23 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.970512073233.21119A-100000@haldjas.folklore.ee> from "Narvi" at May 12, 97 07:41:49 am
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> > I think that wksh has a number of significant advantes for this
> > type of work:

By this I meant "embeddable scripting engines".

> > o	It's the SVR4 answer to the same problem
> > 
> > o	Script portability across UNIX clone OS's
> > 
> > o	Legacy Bourne shell scripts will run with few changes
> 
> *Legacy* Bourne shell scripts for a yet nonexistant document program 8-?

Legacy bourne scripts that won't have to be changed much to GUI-ize them.

> > o	It's required for Open UNIX Standard compliance
> 
> So we could have a Open Unix compiliant document program?

We could have an Open UNIX compliant OS.


> > The only real drawback is that there isn't a pd implementation (I
> > admit that this is a whopper of a drawback, but a grammar-based
> > set of changes in light of the wksh book shouldn't be too hard).
> 
> Well, maybe I am a bit unimaginative, but I really can't imagine myself
> writing shell (Bourne, wksh, etc.) scripts in a document program 8-( 
> I am afraid it wouldn't be something I (or even most people) would like.

Well, I can't imagine myself writing TCL or PERL or Visual BASIC
scripts in a document program, so we are probably even.  8-).


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 11:35:06 1997
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Subject: Re: project: editor
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:28:35 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705120415.NAA03075@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at May 12, 97 01:45:11 pm
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> This is the "I don't like Tcl" reflex.  It's like the gag reflex; once
> you recognise it, it's easy to deal with.

Heh.  By gagging?


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 11:35:58 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 04:31:15 +1000
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199705121831.EAA21910@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it
Subject: Re: How do I mount an old (1.1 or 2.0, pre-slice) disk ?
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>Well the subject says it all... is there an easy way  on FreeBSD
>2.2 to mount & read (at least, writing to it would be nice but is
>secondary at this point) a disk formatted with FreeBSD 1.1 or 2.0
>(pre-slice) ? The disk also has an MSDOS partition on it.

Just mount it.  Old formats are still supported.

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 11:43:10 1997
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To: "Russell L. Carter" <rcarter@consys.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: OO Mailing List (Re: omniORB port to FreeBSD )
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 10:48:06 PDT."
             <199705121748.KAA14166@conceptual.com> 
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I think that there is enough material and interest to start a FreeBSD OO
mailing list where such things as OO comm packages, ORBS, my
current doc project as well as any other OO packages can be discuss.

What do you guys think?


	Regards,
	Amancio






From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 11:47:45 1997
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Subject: Re: mmap()
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:41:45 -0700 (MST)
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In-Reply-To: <19970512115004.56026@tversu.ac.ru> from "Vadim Kolontsov" at May 12, 97 11:50:05 am
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>   this question must be old, but anyway...
> 
>   why mmap() under freebsd (at least, 2.1) almost two times slower than
> read()? I've tryed to read large files, with multiple mmap()'ing file into 
> buffer with size = getpagesize() * 10, and with/without madvise()...

Because of the way buffering is implemented, mmap() can not trigger
predictive read-ahead, while read() can.  The performance improvement
in read() for sequential I/O comes from read-ahead.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 11:47:57 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705121840.LAA07959@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: sio flow control problems with 2.2?
To: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it (Luigi Rizzo)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:40:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, tom@sdf.com, brian@awfulhak.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705120708.JAA21494@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> from "Luigi Rizzo" at May 12, 97 09:08:14 am
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> > This is why there are stone tablets in a cave on Mt. Ararat which
> > (loosely translated) say:
> > 
> > 	"Thou shalt not set the port speed higher than the committed
> > 	 data rate for the communications device unless thine flow
> > 	 control is active and trustworthy".
> 
> which was my question in the first place.. do I have working flow
> control ? I just don't know how broken are my internal modems. In my
> case, with a 28.8 modem, even stty speed 19200 causes the same failure.
> That would suggest a problem at the receive side, except that I don't
> know how constant is the modem speed over time...

This is a very hard question to answer.  Most modem hardware does not
come in boxes with large red and white "Now With WORKING Flow Control!"
stickers.  Most modem manufacturers have screwed this up at one time
or another, and they aren't about to admit to something which might
force them to replace hardware across the board rather than replacing
on a case-by-case (ie: cheaper) basis.  When people started cloning
Microcomm's MNP, they put much less RAM in their modems to save costs,
and then *forced* the use of *in-band* flow control.  And you think you
have problems now... 8-(.


What do you know about your modem?  Does it have discrete UARTs, or is
it doing an emulation?  (It's probably an emulation).

Which emulation chipset is it running, and what mask revision does it
have?

Once you are armed with the answers to these questions, it's possible
to ask the manufacturer about data overrun.


Are you running US Robotics on one end and Rockwell on the other?  This
combination is known to, for some older (than 6 months) US Robotics
modems, especially the Fax modems, lock up the US Robotics chips.  Why
they are not compatible with Rockwell chipsets is unknown.


As far as getting a failure with port speed 19.2 and modem speed 28.8...
28.8 is not a comitted data rate.  They can not possibly guarantee that
they will be aboe to send 2880 characters oer second -- it's a statistical
value which assumes compressability of the transferred data.


Any change you can got to an external modem?  Barring that, any chance
you can swap modems between the ends of your connection to see if the
problem is bidirectional, or unidirectional?


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 11:50:00 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705121843.LAA07981@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:43:37 -0700 (MST)
Cc: rhh@ct.picker.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, msmith@FreeBSD.ORG,
        sos@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705120808.RAA05836@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at May 12, 97 05:38:37 pm
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> >      Hmmm, not sure I understand where you're coming from.  If you're
> > sitting at the text login prompt, why would you want the splash page to
> > stay up?
> 
> If it's a server in a droid-heavy environment, eg., or otherwise needs to 
> look "pretty".

Heh.

What about making the splash page come back up as the "screen saver"
kicks in?  That way, if it's idle, it goes back to the splash and
looks nice (again) for the droids after a logout.  8-).


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 11:51:28 1997
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To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: project: editor 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 11:23:23 PDT."
             <199705121823.LAA07896@phaeton.artisoft.com> 
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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I will provide a loadable module interface as an attempt to support
not just different script languages but also different functionality for
instance snmp functionality.

End of scripting wars for now .

More on the doc project later on today.

	Regards,
	Amancio



>From The Desk Of Terry Lambert :
> > > I think that wksh has a number of significant advantes for this
> > > type of work:
> 
> By this I meant "embeddable scripting engines".
> 
> > > o	It's the SVR4 answer to the same problem
> > > 
> > > o	Script portability across UNIX clone OS's
> > > 
> > > o	Legacy Bourne shell scripts will run with few changes
> > 
> > *Legacy* Bourne shell scripts for a yet nonexistant document program 8-?
> 
> Legacy bourne scripts that won't have to be changed much to GUI-ize them.
> 
> > > o	It's required for Open UNIX Standard compliance
> > 
> > So we could have a Open Unix compiliant document program?
> 
> We could have an Open UNIX compliant OS.
> 
> 
> > > The only real drawback is that there isn't a pd implementation (I
> > > admit that this is a whopper of a drawback, but a grammar-based
> > > set of changes in light of the wksh book shouldn't be too hard).
> > 
> > Well, maybe I am a bit unimaginative, but I really can't imagine myself
> > writing shell (Bourne, wksh, etc.) scripts in a document program 8-( 
> > I am afraid it wouldn't be something I (or even most people) would like.
> 
> Well, I can't imagine myself writing TCL or PERL or Visual BASIC
> scripts in a document program, so we are probably even.  8-).
> 
> 
> 					Terry Lambert
> 					terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 11:53:48 1997
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Message-Id: <199705121846.LAA08003@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 11:46:24 -0700 (MST)
Cc: sos@sos.freebsd.dk, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, rhh@ct.picker.com,
        msmith@FreeBSD.ORG, sos@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> > > There's some provision for palette rotation already; the real problem
> > > is just arranging for the rotation on a useful basis - the console
> > > driver only runs when text is output, so colours would only shift
> > > during character output (not a bad idea though).
> >
> > No, the redraw rutine runs periodically even if there is no output (it
> > just doesn't do anything), this can be used for animation 20 steps
> > (IIRC) a second. There can be no animation during the probe fase (or
> > atleast just a little) as the system timers aren't running yet..
> 
> Sorry, I meant that during the probe phase the driver only ran while
> text was being output.

The rotation in Win95 is caused by the loading of the systray.exe dll
by the explorer, actually, so it would not be inconsistent to call
the rotate function from the boot stage probe iteration code.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 12:02:54 1997
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Narvi wrote:

> > I think that wksh has a number of significant advantes for this
> > type of work:
> >
> > o     It's the SVR4 answer to the same problem
> >
> > o     Script portability across UNIX clone OS's
> >
> > o     Legacy Bourne shell scripts will run with few changes
> 
> *Legacy* Bourne shell scripts for a yet nonexistant document program 8-?
> 
> >
> > o     It's required for Open UNIX Standard compliance
> 
> So we could have a Open Unix compiliant document program?
> 

 It must be wary good.

> >
> >
> > The only real drawback is that there isn't a pd implementation (I
> > admit that this is a whopper of a drawback, but a grammar-based
> > set of changes in light of the wksh book shouldn't be too hard).
> >
> 
> Well, maybe I am a bit unimaginative, but I really can't imagine myself
> writing shell (Bourne, wksh, etc.) scripts in a document program 8-(
> I am afraid it wouldn't be something I (or even most people) would like.

 Yes,in addition must be some stupid sample tool.
 (in style cpp or m4)

> 
>         Sander
> 
> >
> >                                       Regards,
> >                                       Terry Lambert
> >                                       terry@lambert.org
> > ---
> > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> > or previous employers.
> >

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 12:05:59 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:04:49 -0700
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From: Garrett Casey <garrett@websidestory.com>
Subject: Any FreeBSD experts in San Diego?
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I would be interested in contacting anyone in San Diego
(or somewhere near) who is an expert in FreeBSD.

I am currently running 8 machines sharing 20,000,000+ 
httpd requests a day.  I would like to pick your brain
for high volume tcp/ip solutions. I can pay.

-Garrett
garrett@websidestory.com


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 12:15:00 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705121908.MAA08042@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: PATCHES: NFS server locking support
To: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:08:31 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
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Ah, Andrew!  I had hoped to drag you back into this.  8-).


> > Notes:  *       F_CNVT requires a covenant between the NFS lockd in
> >                 user space, and the kernel, based on the wire
> >                 representation of NFS file handles propagated to
> >                 the lockd process.  Because I don't know what this
> >                 is from the incomplete user space rpc.lockd code,
> >                 this function is stubbed to return ENOSYS.  Once
> >                 this information is documented, it will be a simple
> >                 matter to call FHTOVP on the user's behalf.
> 
> It's not documented in the spec either!  There is a bit of clarification
> in the NFS V3 spec (which sadly documents only the delta from old
> locking to new locking, rather than re-specifying the whole thing):

Maybe I should clarify: I knew you knew the answer based on the
work you had done, but because you stubbed things, the fields didn't
get broken out, so *I* didn't know the answer.  Unfortunately, I don't
have a SunOS machine I can use as a client to decode this myself.

> I found, last time I looked at this, that the encoding for NFS v2 was
> fairly obvious when you looked at a trace of existing implementations
> talking to each other; however, I don't have a pair of third-party
> NFS v3 implementations available to check. 

Yes; I did this same thing while at Novell/USG (the former USL), but
I don't remember the data, and wasn't allowed to take it with me when
I left.


> >                 Note that POSIX close semantics regarding advisory
> >                 locking are antagonistic to an NFS lockd at this
> >                 time.  I have not written a POSIX namespace override
> >                 option for open or for fcntl() at this time.  This
> >                 means the user space NFS lockd will not be able to
> >                 coelesce open fd's, and must lazy-close them based
> >                 on stat information.  This will severely restrict
> >                 the number of simultaneous locking clients that can
> >                 ne active at one time until these semantic overrides
> >                 go in.
> 
> I don't see why the POSIX close semantics are a problem here - I would
> expect the lockd to hold only one open fd for each file handle (with the
> owner/pid fields in the lock distinguishing individual clients).
> Of course, the limit on open fds per process is potentially limiting
> on a single-process lockd, but there is no obvious way round this.

I expected that each handle that came in from a remote system would be
potentially unique to that system.

Basically this means that the user space NFS lockd calls F_CNVT to
convert the handle to an fd, and this may result in an fd for a file
which is already open.

I expected to fstat() the fd, and then use the device/inode value to
hash it and uniquify the fd.  This means closing the duplicate fd,
and that's where the POSIX semantics can bite you: close the duplicate
fd, and you lose the locks on the fd it duplicates if the fd obeys POSIX
close semantics.

If you can guaranteee that you can hash the handle values in user space
because the handle values are not unique in the conversion part between
client systems, then you're all set... and it's not a problem.  F_CNVT
will only be called once per hash miss in that case.


> >         **      The F_UNLKSYS function operates on a single process
> >                 open file table.  This means that you can not have
> >                 peer-based load balancing of NFS lockd clients.  This
> >                 could be rewritten to travers the system open file
> >                 table instead of the per process open file table.  If
> >                 this were done, the restriction would be lifted.  I
> >                 am personally more interested in a multithreaded NFS
> >                 lockd instead of a multiple instances of an NFS lockd,
> >                 so I have not done this.
> 
> Is this how you plan to handle blocking locks?  The one thing that you
> don't appear to have provided is a mechanism for waking up the lockd when
> a previously unavailable lock becomes free (so that lockd can inform the
> client).  If the lockd is multi-threaded to the extent that it can afford
> to have one of its threads go into a blocking fcntl() call for each
> outstanding lock, then this requirement goes away - but that assumes
> kernel threads, and also presents a problem for implementation of the
> nlm_cancel from the client (which cancels a previous blocking lock request). 

No, this is the "client has crashed" case, where you deassert all the
locks for a given client system.  The call just says "for this client
system, deassert all locks regardless of the process on that system".
This is the reasoning behind the "lf_pid == 0" case: it's a wildcard
value for "any pid for the give lf_rsys".


I expected to handle the blocking locks using one of three methods:

1)	The semantic override.  Because the locks are asserted
	using (struct flock).l_rsys != RSYS_LOCAL (0), we could
	decide to generate select() events for the fd's on which
	there were outstanding locks.

2)	The async call gate.  Ideally, all potentially blocking
	system calls should be usable using an async vs. sync trap
	mechanism that cretes an aio context record for the call.
	This is actually the ideally method of implementing a
	Unversity of Washington style user space threading system,
	either for POSIX user space threads, or for SunOS 4.x liblwp
	Light Weight Processes.  An async call may be polled and
	timed out using aiowait() and aiocancel(), respectively.

3)	The poll(2) interface.  This interface allows for events
	other than the read/write/except events allowed to select;
	there were a number of people in the core team who were
	talking about integrating the poll(2) code from NetBSD as
	the basis for the select(2) call.  A "lock event" could deal
	with this.

I suppose you *could* do a thread per client, but without #2 to support
conversion of a blocking call into a non-blocking call plus a thread
context switch, I don't see where this would be very useful given
the current implementation of threads being so trivial.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

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From: Archie Cobbs <archie@whistle.com>
Message-Id: <199705121915.MAA28346@bubba.whistle.com>
Subject: Re: divert and ethernet addresses?
In-Reply-To: <19970511151454.39414@crh.cl.msu.edu> from Charles Henrich at "May 11, 97 03:14:54 pm"
To: henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu (Charles Henrich)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:15:58 -0700 (PDT)
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> Is there anyway to get a divert that sees the full ethernet packet so work can
> be done based on the source/destination ethernet addresses?

No, unfortunately.. divert is an IP level mechanism (wheras BPF is
an interface and hardware level mechanism).

BPF does let you write, but you can't stop incoming packets from
being received (ie., you just get a copy, there's no way to actually
"divert" them..)

-Archie

___________________________________________________________________________
Archie Cobbs   *   Whistle Communications, Inc.  *   http://www.whistle.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 12:23:12 1997
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Subject: Re: ppp problems 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 11:38:16 -0000."
             <Pine.OSF.3.96.970512113538.24478A-100000@tom.fe.up.pt> 
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> 
> Sometimes ppp logs how much time I was connected and sometimes it doesn't.
> 
> I always shut the link down with 'close' and the I do a 'show log'
> and sometimes it reports 'Connected time: xxx secs' and sometimes
> it doesn't.
> 
> What am I doing wrong? 
> 
> Please help me...

Can you take a look at the 2.2 ppp on http://www.freebsd.org/~brian.
Your problems should be gone.  If you are -current, the changes
are there too.

> Thanks,
> Jorge
> 

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 12:25:10 1997
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Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:18:29 -0700 (MST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970512101113.00bac288@etinc.com> from "dennis" at May 12, 97 10:11:16 am
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> Certain things you're just not gonna get...so deal with it. Do you
> think that SMC is gonna build another card with DEC-like chip when
> anyone with a $500. layout program can clone the board and steal
> their market? Its getting so easy to clone hardware, particularly
> with single chip solutions, that you're going to see big vendors
> refuse to use parts that have public specs...like you said, you
> gotta pay the bills, and it doesnt pay to build hardware with
> readily available hardware with public specs.

Actually, you seem to be complaining about the fact that using parts
with public specifications commoditizes the hardware.  This is true,
but it's not a bad thing.  After all, many companies make lots of
money selling commodity items.  Like kitchen utensils.

I think as more and more ASIC parts get out there, the applications
to which they are targeted must *inevitably* become commoditized.

The unit production cost is the thing, and SMC is going to have a
lower unit production cost than "Joe Schmoe" because of quantity
price breaks from their vendors, and economies of scale on production.

If you think DEC isn't going to sell those specs to "Joe Schmoe" in
order to protect SMC's market, then you have another thing coming.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 12:31:10 1997
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Terry Lambert wrote:
> 
> > > Qt looks pretty good to me replace it by something better and I will
> > > consider it.
> >
> > I thought we were talking about document prep systems - now we're
> > evaluating GUI toolkits on their own, independant merit?   I'm
> > confused. :-)
> 
> Don't be so quick to judge.
> 
> I wanted a single UI program to talk to command line administration
> programs that obeyed a given set of interactor semantics.  So I wrote
> a set of command line tools for administering user accounts... all
> the whistles -- UID, GID, renaming, renumbering, relocation of account
> directories, etc., etc..
> 
> The idea was to have user tools, disk management tools, service
> administration tools, etc..  Basically, an NT 4.0 type UI for UNIX,
> with about 15-20 actual programs backing it.
> 
> Then I came up with an interactor grammar for talking to the command
> line utilities -- command line options and statting of stdin to see
> if it was a pipe, etc., etc..
> 


> Then I started writing an X based UI, but decided that the only way
> it would ever fly is if the UI had a standard look and feel, and the
> closest thing UNIX has to a standard is Motif.

may be for such GUI better tcl/tk ?

> 
> So I started writing a Motif clone to support the X based UI (it now
> runs all of the Young sample code pixel-for-pixel identically to the
> real Motif, but isn't quite there yet, and it looks like ELF is
> finally going to remove my objections to LGPL, so I haven't hacked
> on it in six months).

? I look in LessTiff, and I think it must be work well during few 
month. 

> 
> I basically work on any of these pieces when I want something fun to
> hack on.  Keep enough projects going, and there's always *something*
> fun to hack on.  FS internals books, serial communications books,
> C code, C++ code, artwork, etc..  I personally have 136 cataloged
> projects, and more miscellaneous things than I can count.  I guess
> I'm a dataflow machine?  8-).
> 
> Anyway, it keeps you sane for your day job.
> 

I also think about GUI interfases in such style, 
with 3 independent layers 
1(UI Intyerfaces --> 
2 program interfases
(coomand-line utilities and corresponding text files) 
3 remote configuration for local net, from base conf, such as cfengine,
support configuration of external hardware (dechubs in my case)

And of course, It is interesting but no time.

> So I definitely understand his digression, and the motivation for the
> overall project.  8-).
> 
>                                         Regards,
>                                         Terry Lambert
>                                         terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 12:36:44 1997
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Message-ID: <3377711E.18C2@lightside.com>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:35:58 -0700
From: Jake Hamby <jehamby@lightside.com>
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Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> Cool, I am interested and we do need someone to keep track of such
> things as ACE, ILU, and now omniORB 8)
> 
>         Cheers,
>         Amancio

Hey, don't forget about OmniBroker.  It's another CORBA 2 compliant ORB
for C++, and while it's not GPL'ed like omniORB (which is, IMHO, a good
thing :), it is freely available for non-commercial use, and has source
code.  Unfortunately, it's not multithreaded yet, but will be soon. 
BTW, the author of OmniBroker seems very interested in promoting and
maintaining it.  It's available at:

http://www.ooc.com/

BTW, I was looking for a free ORB to port to BeOS, which is why I was
very interested to see the announcement of omniORB.  Having two strong
products is always better than being stuck with one, and thanks to the
miracle of CORBA, omniORB and OmniBroker should be 100% interoperable
(if not, its a bug!).

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Jake Hamby| APT Engineer at JPL, CS student at Cal Poly, and BeOS
developer!|
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You can't talk to a psycho like a normal human being." - Poe

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 12:38:35 1997
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To: Luigi Rizzo <luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
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At 05:42 PM 5/12/97 +0200, Luigi Rizzo wrote:
>Dennis said:
>
>> Would be nice, wouldn't it?
>> 
>> Certain things you're just not gonna get...so deal with it. Do you
>> think that SMC is gonna build another card with DEC-like chip when
>> anyone with a $500. layout program can clone the board and steal
>> their market? Its getting so easy to clone hardware, particularly
>> with single chip solutions, that you're going to see big vendors
>
>as it is to build them in the first place, so you cannot really
>complain about cloning the board. As an example, the Matrox Meteor
>is essentially the same board as described in the Philips data
>sheets, so everybody could have built it without the need for
>cloning the board. I assume it is the same for the 21x4x, Bt848
>and other single-chip PCI devices.
>
>The chip manufacturer has 3 options:
>
>    1.  sell the chip in very high volumes because specs are public
>	and anyone is able to write a driver;
>
>    2.  sell the specs and device to selected manufacturers, with
>	a probably smaller market but higher margins on each chip;
>
>    3.  build the card itself so cloning is impossible because both
>	the chip and the specs are not available.
>
>I don't think #2 is a viable option, though, except perhaps for special
>HW which would not have high volumes in any case. And in those cases
>you would probably chose a well reputed manufacturer anyways.

You may not *think* so, but remember if no major manufacture builds
initially with
the chip, then there is no market for the clones, or the chip. The chip
manufacturers are 
going to get pressure from the big guys to not make the specs
public...although no one 
really gives a hoot about unix....Windows is the real market.

If SMC or HP says, "We'll buy 5 million ICs if you dont make the spec
public"...its likely
to happen.

db

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 12:39:44 1997
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Yes indeed.  Jake Hamby also brought to my attention the fact that
DEC's OmniBroker in its new incarnation at Object Orientated Concepts Inc
http://www.ooc.com is available with source code (free) too.

Lots to do here.

Russell

> 
> I think that there is enough material and interest to start a FreeBSD OO
> mailing list where such things as OO comm packages, ORBS, my
> current doc project as well as any other OO packages can be discuss.
> 
> What do you guys think?
> 
> 
> 	Regards,
> 	Amancio
> 
> 




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 13:50:27 1997
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
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At 12:18 PM 5/12/97 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
>> Certain things you're just not gonna get...so deal with it. Do you
>> think that SMC is gonna build another card with DEC-like chip when
>> anyone with a $500. layout program can clone the board and steal
>> their market? Its getting so easy to clone hardware, particularly
>> with single chip solutions, that you're going to see big vendors
>> refuse to use parts that have public specs...like you said, you
>> gotta pay the bills, and it doesnt pay to build hardware with
>> readily available hardware with public specs.
>
>Actually, you seem to be complaining about the fact that using parts
>with public specifications commoditizes the hardware.  This is true,
>but it's not a bad thing.  After all, many companies make lots of
>money selling commodity items.  Like kitchen utensils.
>
>I think as more and more ASIC parts get out there, the applications
>to which they are targeted must *inevitably* become commoditized.
>
>The unit production cost is the thing, and SMC is going to have a
>lower unit production cost than "Joe Schmoe" because of quantity
>price breaks from their vendors, and economies of scale on production.
>
>If you think DEC isn't going to sell those specs to "Joe Schmoe" in
>order to protect SMC's market, then you have another thing coming.

Horse Hockey! This is the old IBM PC problem....who is going to establish
the market if noone can make enough margin to pay for the initial marketing?

Companies like DEC will have to make business decisions about whether
they want to have a handful of OEMs or sell to the general public. I think
that
there will be "limited" agreements, in which the manufacturers of ASICs keep
the specs under wraps for a year or two, letting the marketing companies 
recover their investments, and then flood the market for the taiwanese clone
manufacturers.

Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 14:04:43 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:03:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brian N. Handy" <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: I need a laptop!
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Hi Folks,

My boss (thesis advisor) has decided he needs a laptop to drag around with
him, and after careful thought (thanks Nate) we've settled on an IBM 560C. 

I could probably sort out how to install FreeBSD on this, but I'd much
rather just buy the thing pre-set-up from some vendor somewhere.  

Any suggestions?  Either we pay someone to do it or I have to figure it
out.  (I'm going to go have a look at the web page and see if I can
understand how tough it really is...but I really don't want to do it.)

Thanks,

Brian


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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:11:23 -0400
From: Charles Henrich <henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu>
To: Archie Cobbs <archie@whistle.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: divert and ethernet addresses?
References: <19970511151454.39414@crh.cl.msu.edu> <199705121915.MAA28346@bubba.whistle.com>
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On the subject of Re: divert and ethernet addresses?, Archie Cobbs stated:

> 
> > Is there anyway to get a divert that sees the full ethernet packet so work can
> > be done based on the source/destination ethernet addresses?
> 
> No, unfortunately.. divert is an IP level mechanism (wheras BPF is
> an interface and hardware level mechanism).
> 
> BPF does let you write, but you can't stop incoming packets from
> being received (ie., you just get a copy, there's no way to actually
> "divert" them..)

That should be good enough.  Im attempting to make a very simple smart hub,
that lets me control what ethernet addresses pass between two networks.  My
only concern is that it wont be able to handle the traffic quickly enough to
work :(  We'll just have to see..

-Crh

       Charles Henrich     Michigan State University     henrich@msu.edu

                         http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 14:17:12 1997
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From: Snob Art Genre <ben@narcissus.ml.org>
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Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, dennis wrote:

> If SMC or HP says, "We'll buy 5 million ICs if you dont make the spec
> public"...its likely
> to happen.

DEC: "You'll buy them anyway."

> db
> 



 Ben

"You have your mind on computers, it seems."


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 14:34:06 1997
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Well, I got the if_media mods from someone, and the driver works a 
lot better, but the man page for ifconfig doesn't have the commands to
use any of the features!

Anyone know where an updated ifconfig man page can be found?

Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 15:07:59 1997
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Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 14:45:34 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970512164753.00c39a40@etinc.com> from "dennis" at May 12, 97 04:47:56 pm
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> >Actually, you seem to be complaining about the fact that using parts
> >with public specifications commoditizes the hardware.  This is true,
> >but it's not a bad thing.  After all, many companies make lots of
> >money selling commodity items.  Like kitchen utensils.

[ ... ]

> >If you think DEC isn't going to sell those specs to "Joe Schmoe" in
> >order to protect SMC's market, then you have another thing coming.
> 
> Horse Hockey! This is the old IBM PC problem....who is going to establish
> the market if noone can make enough margin to pay for the initial marketing?

Actually, this isn't the IBM PC problem.

This is the IBM PS/2 MCA problem: invent a closed interface and your
customers will go elsewhere.

> Companies like DEC will have to make business decisions about whether
> they want to have a handful of OEMs or sell to the general public. I
> think that there will be "limited" agreements, in which the
> manufacturers of ASICs keep the specs under wraps for a year or two,
> letting the marketing companies recover their investments, and then
> flood the market for the taiwanese clone manufacturers.

This presumes that somehow the "taiwanese clone manufacturers" can
ride on the backs of the marketing companies.  This is an unlikely
scenario -- each company must do it's own marketing.

This also assumes that the company that comes out with something first
is somehow at a disadvantage... and that's what patents are for, if
they truly have unique R&D value to recoup.  If not, then they are
simply milking the margin until competition commoditizes the hardware,
and then probably moving on to greener (non-commodity) pastures every
so often to keep ahead of the wave.

What we are really talking about here is companies which *delay* new
technology deployment so that they can reap as much margin as they
can get away with before they move on.  This is very similar to the
practice of selling business names to liquidators, and then they push
as much crap through the channel as they can to trade on the value of
the name (or in this case, the new technology) before moving on to
vulch the next carcass.

I have no sympathy for such companies, who ride the price bubble from
product to product.  The best example in this line of discussion so
far was the Matrox board, and its similarity to the Phillips sample
implementation that comes with the chip data.  What investment did Matrox
need to recoup that justified such a high margin and protectionism,
such as you describe here?  None.  The ramp-up costs are the same for
the clone vendors as for Matrox... a production line is a production
line, and it's nothing more than an issue of how long you can keep an
inflated margin before you have to do honest business.


Personally, I don't think these companies have a "right" to inflated
margin, and if I were in the boards business, I'd be happy to establish
my legal department as a profit center by sueing these vendors under
Sherman for price-fixing, if similar non-disclosure agreements were
not offered generally to all interested vendors.  If DEC sells something
to one company in an open market agreement, they are required by *law*
to provide similar open market agreements to all other vendors who
wish to enter into them.


If you are saying that "the fix is in", then with you as a board vendor,
I urge you to get into the business of suing, because if you're right,
it will be terrifically lucrative for you: if nothing else, the FTC fines
for your competitors anticompetitive practices will drive up his costs,
and you will be able to charge less for your product than he is able to
charge for his.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 15:20:08 1997
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199705122220.PAA02508@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: DES policy
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers)
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Greetings!
     Previous releases always were "export clean" in this regard
(I've checked through 2.1.6 but can't find my 2.1.7R CD at the moment).
Yet, it appears that the 2.2.1R CD *does* include the DES stuff.
     Has there been a change in policy regarding the inclusion of
the DES stuff on the CD-ROMs?  If so, could someone indicate if the 
policy is expected to remain in force and any reasons behind it
(personally, I *like* not having to ftp the DES stuff separately
but I want to make sure I'm aware of what's on the CD's in case
I ship one abroad).
    Thx!
--don


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 15:34:53 1997
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From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: Charles Henrich <henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu>
cc: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: divert and ethernet addresses?
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Charles Henrich wrote:

> On the subject of Re: divert and ethernet addresses?, Brian Somers stated:
> 
> > > Is there anyway to get a divert that sees the full ethernet packet so work can
> > > be done based on the source/destination ethernet addresses?
> > 
> > This is what /dev/bpf* are for AFAIK.  But I've never had the
> > pleasure of doing anything tcpdump'ish.
> 
> Yea, but does /dev/bpf allow you to write to it? 

Yes, it does.

Danny

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 15:37:02 1997
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Message-ID: <3377A659.A21@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:23:05 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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Hi,
GNU tar gave me some problems setting the blocksize, so I remembered
someone recommended an alternative tar program on the ports list. I
think our gnu tar is outdated (current version should be 1.12), but
looking at:
ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix/star/README.otherbugs
my conclusion is that GNU tar is so buggy we should replace it in the
base distribution and move it to the ports tree.

Pedro.



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 15:51:49 1997
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From: Sean Eric Fagan <sef@Kithrup.COM>
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To: dgy@rtd.com
Subject: Re: DES policy
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In article <199705122220.PAA02508.kithrup.freebsd.hackers@seagull.rtd.com> you write:
>Greetings!
>     Previous releases always were "export clean" in this regard
>(I've checked through 2.1.6 but can't find my 2.1.7R CD at the moment).
>Yet, it appears that the 2.2.1R CD *does* include the DES stuff.
>     Has there been a change in policy regarding the inclusion of
>the DES stuff on the CD-ROMs?  If so, could someone indicate if the 
>policy is expected to remain in force and any reasons behind it

I, of course, don't know any official reason.  Well, not officially :).

Late last year, a federal judge in California (that's in the US, for those who
didn't know) decided that the government's rules for getting an export
certificate for encryption code were overly broad, intrusive, and slow, and
thus were a violation of the first Ammendment to the US Constitution (the
one about Congress making no laws abridging the freedom of teh press, and
other such stuff).

There is a lot of doubt over just what her ruling means.  There is a very
good chance that it doesn't apply outside of California -- however, Walnut
Creed CD-ROM is in California,, so that's helpful.

Sadly, what is not helpful is that the gov't changed their regulations in
response to this ruling, so there is considerable doubt as to whether it
still applies.  That means that WC CD-ROM and Jordan Hubbard could find
themselves arrested for violating the ITAR regulations.  (And the rest of
the world will laugh, really -- the regulations are pitiful, idiotic, and
serve no interest but the NSA's.  And for what is included on the CD-ROM,
not even theirs.)

Meanwhile, the EFF is working on finding what the new rules mean with
respect to the ruling, and various parties, including some Senators (those
are Congress critters, for those who don't know), are pushing for very
different cryptography rules.

Working against them, the Forces of Evil include the President (that's Bill
Clinton) who (probably on behalf of the NSA) is pushing to have all
non-key-escrow forms of encryption made illegal.  This is BAD.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 16:17:53 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:17:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
In-Reply-To: <3377A659.A21@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> Hi,
> GNU tar gave me some problems setting the blocksize, so I remembered
> someone recommended an alternative tar program on the ports list. I
> think our gnu tar is outdated (current version should be 1.12), but
> looking at:
> ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix/star/README.otherbugs
> my conclusion is that GNU tar is so buggy we should replace it in the
> base distribution and move it to the ports tree.

So far, Pedro, I've heard about one problem, and that not a major one.  
Could you justify calling GNU tar "so buggy" ?  And, do you have enough 
experience with star so you could nonestly say it doesn't have an even 
worse set?  Saying that star has one item it does better is a little 
thin.  Is there more?

> 
> Pedro.
> 
> 
> 
> 

----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 16:19:42 1997
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From: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> Hi,
> GNU tar gave me some problems setting the blocksize, so I remembered
> someone recommended an alternative tar program on the ports list. I
> think our gnu tar is outdated (current version should be 1.12), but
> looking at:
> ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix/star/README.otherbugs
> my conclusion is that GNU tar is so buggy we should replace it in the
> base distribution and move it to the ports tree.
> 
> Pedro.

  The FreeBSD tar is not a "pure" GNU version.  Many local changes were
made, include bug fixes.

  You also don't mention what version of FreeBSD you are using.

Tom


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 16:34:10 1997
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
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At 02:45 PM 5/12/97 -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
>> >Actually, you seem to be complaining about the fact that using parts
>> >with public specifications commoditizes the hardware.  This is true,
>> >but it's not a bad thing.  After all, many companies make lots of
>> >money selling commodity items.  Like kitchen utensils.
>
>[ ... ]
>
>> >If you think DEC isn't going to sell those specs to "Joe Schmoe" in
>> >order to protect SMC's market, then you have another thing coming.
>> 
>> Horse Hockey! This is the old IBM PC problem....who is going to establish
>> the market if noone can make enough margin to pay for the initial
marketing?
>
>Actually, this isn't the IBM PC problem.
>
>This is the IBM PS/2 MCA problem: invent a closed interface and your
>customers will go elsewhere.
>
>> Companies like DEC will have to make business decisions about whether
>> they want to have a handful of OEMs or sell to the general public. I
>> think that there will be "limited" agreements, in which the
>> manufacturers of ASICs keep the specs under wraps for a year or two,
>> letting the marketing companies recover their investments, and then
>> flood the market for the taiwanese clone manufacturers.
>
>This presumes that somehow the "taiwanese clone manufacturers" can
>ride on the backs of the marketing companies.  This is an unlikely
>scenario -- each company must do it's own marketing.

What planet are you from? There are HUNDREDS of ne2000 clones that
do zero marketing. Infotel and a hoard of other DEC chip clones rode
SMC...now SMC is in having big problems.
>
>This also assumes that the company that comes out with something first
>is somehow at a disadvantage... and that's what patents are for, if
>they truly have unique R&D value to recoup.  If not, then they are
>simply milking the margin until competition commoditizes the hardware,
>and then probably moving on to greener (non-commodity) pastures every
>so often to keep ahead of the wave.

You cant patent an interface, and with a single chip solution you dont have
to make many changes to a card to copy the interface without violating any
copyrights. You could have EXACTLY the same hardware layout as another
card and route the traces differently and its not a violation. If you make
your 
interface public, there are lots of ways to clone the card..you dont even have
to use the same parts, but you can sell your (cheap) hardware on the 
public perception that the software drivers are stable.

db


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 16:34:19 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:23:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: Kyle Mestery <mestery@cobber.cord.edu>
Subject: PPP with a livingston portmaster
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I am having trouble getting user PPP to work with my ISP.  I am running 
2.2 built as of May 5 on a Pentium 150 with a Motorolla modem.  The 
problem is this:  Previously with my old service provider, all I did was 
login with my username and password and then type ppp and their side 
started teh negotiation of the connection.  Now, with my new provider, I 
login with my username and password, and then I get a host: prompt.  My 
ISP tech people told me this is where I need to begin the ppp process. No 
problem, I typed 'set openmode active' to tell my machine to start the 
process.  It sends 5 LCP packets to the portmaster, but none get 
returned, and then it hangs up the line.  This is frustrating, because my 
ISP tech people told me to not use LCP.  Has anyone else had similar 
problems or found a solution?

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Kyle A.D. Mestery                | 	  --* POWERED BY FREEBSD *--
1901 20th St. S #4		 | Network Support Specialist
Moorhead, MN 56560               | Concordia College, Moorhead, MN
218-236-6359			 | "My other computer runs UNIX also" -TJ
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 16:53:42 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 16:53:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brian N. Handy" <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: newfs hangs my system?
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Hello,

I just got a couple of new drives for my machine, and I've been trying to
format the drives...to no avail.  (2.2-STABLE)

Well, that's not completely true.  I was finally able to talk sysinstall
into doing the brunt of the work for me.  I've got two 4GB drives, and I
thought it would be real cool to put 80MB of swap on the front of each
drive and then CCD the balance of the two drives together.

However, I have something wrong.  Newfs is hanging my machine.  I've been
able to disklabel my CCD, here it is:

lambic:~ [11]->disklabel ccd0
[...]
3 partitions:
#        size   offset    fstype   [fsize bsize bps/cpg]
  c: 16701056        0    4.2BSD        0     0     0   # (Cyl.    0 -8154*)


...but when I try to newfs it, the system hangs.  I'll do something like:

lambic:~ [12]->newfs -b 8192 -f 1024 /dev/ccd0c /a


--> and it'll run for a few seconds, creating things like crazy, get to
about the second line and hang the whole system.  Locks everything up
tight.  This is not unique to my ccd filesystem either;  if I just try to
newfs the drives alone (/dev/sd1s1e for example) I get the same behavior.

sysinstall doesn't seem to have this problem, which suggests sysinstall
knows something I don't.

What am I doing wrong?  What do I need to do to mount my CCD?  Halp!


Thanks,


Brian


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 17:06:58 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705130000.RAA08645@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: DES policy
To: sef@Kithrup.COM (Sean Eric Fagan)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:00:53 -0700 (MST)
Cc: dgy@rtd.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705122251.PAA27081@kithrup.com> from "Sean Eric Fagan" at May 12, 97 03:51:44 pm
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> Working against them, the Forces of Evil include the President (that's Bill
> Clinton) who (probably on behalf of the NSA) is pushing to have all
> non-key-escrow forms of encryption made illegal.  This is BAD.

That's OK.  There is a mathematical flaw in Clipper which allows you
you use it to make message non-escrow decryptable.

Luckily, the proposed legislation makes no distinction between "key
escrow system" and "*functioning* key escrow system".  Hah.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 17:13:21 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:09:58 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>
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Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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Chuck:
Read the URL, it has a list of bugs. GNU tar is not POSIX. I'm not sure
of putting in "star" either, I'm testing it now. For sure we should at
least upgrade GNU tar.
What ever happened to BSD tar? It was pre-POSIX but it was an option
also.

	--Pedro.


Chuck Robey wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 12 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > GNU tar gave me some problems setting the blocksize, so I remembered
> > someone recommended an alternative tar program on the ports list. I
> > think our gnu tar is outdated (current version should be 1.12), but
> > looking at:
> > ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix/star/README.otherbugs
> > my conclusion is that GNU tar is so buggy we should replace it in the
> > base distribution and move it to the ports tree.
> 
> So far, Pedro, I've heard about one problem, and that not a major one.
> Could you justify calling GNU tar "so buggy" ?  And, do you have enough
> experience with star so you could nonestly say it doesn't have an even
> worse set?  Saying that star has one item it does better is a little
> thin.  Is there more?
> 
> >
> > Pedro.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data
> chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
> 9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
> Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
> (301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
> ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 17:14:33 1997
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From: john cooper <john@isi.co.jp>
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To: freebsd-bugs@freebsd.com, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.com,
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Subject: Quick (freebsd 2.2.1 / xf86 3.2 / flakey mouse) question
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Hi,
    I searched the freebsd and XF86 FAQ's but found nothing 
corresponding the the problem I'm experiencing.  I have a
ps/2 mouse systems mouse that exhibits wierd behavior
under both fvwm and twm.

The cursor can be moved with the mouse, however the cursor
instantly 'homes' back to the lower left corner of the screen
at seemingly random times.  The frequency of this is so high
that X is effectively unuseable.

The mouse is at 0x60, IRQ 12 as usual and conflicts with
no other device as best as I can tell.  I suspect some
xf86 configuration problem here as the erratic behavior
occurs in fvwm and twm.  I tried selecting mouse comm
protocols other than ps/2, which only made things worse.

Incidentally I have the same configuration except for
the video server, installed on another machine which
functions as expected.  The working installation uses
the non-accelerated "svga" server.  On the other machine
I've tried both "svga" and "s3v" servers.  In both
installations, "moused" is not running.

So at this point I'm stuck.  This is a pretty generic
installation so I suspect some other poor soul already
grappled with this problem.  Help!

Any and all advice is most welcome.

Thanks,

-john

Please respond to: john@isi.co.jp

PS: Iwill P55TV SCSI Motherboard with Award BIOS, Diamond Stealth
    2000 3D video card


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 17:17:01 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 19:13:36 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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Tom Samplonius wrote:
> 
>   You also don't mention what version of FreeBSD you are using.
> 
Sorry, 2.2.1-Release. I hope current upgraded most GNU utils that are
outdated in this release.
I suggested some enhancements to star, in the future it could be a good
candidate.

	--Pedro.

> Tom

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 17:18:30 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:17:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: hackers@freeBSD.org
Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> Chuck:
> Read the URL, it has a list of bugs. GNU tar is not POSIX. I'm not sure
> of putting in "star" either, I'm testing it now. For sure we should at
> least upgrade GNU tar.
> What ever happened to BSD tar? It was pre-POSIX but it was an option
> also.

It wasn't as standard as GNU tar.  In my own experience, GNU tar, while 
not perffect, was the best tar out there, which is why I was somewhat 
skeptical of you wanting to move to another.  I didn't say it was 
perfect, just the best alternative.

> 
> 	--Pedro.
> 
> 
> Chuck Robey wrote:
> > 
> > On Mon, 12 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi,
> > > GNU tar gave me some problems setting the blocksize, so I remembered
> > > someone recommended an alternative tar program on the ports list. I
> > > think our gnu tar is outdated (current version should be 1.12), but
> > > looking at:
> > > ftp://ftp.fokus.gmd.de/pub/unix/star/README.otherbugs
> > > my conclusion is that GNU tar is so buggy we should replace it in the
> > > base distribution and move it to the ports tree.
> > 
> > So far, Pedro, I've heard about one problem, and that not a major one.
> > Could you justify calling GNU tar "so buggy" ?  And, do you have enough
> > experience with star so you could nonestly say it doesn't have an even
> > worse set?  Saying that star has one item it does better is a little
> > thin.  Is there more?
> > 
> > >
> > > Pedro.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> > ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> > Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data
> > chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
> > 9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
> > Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
> > (301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
> > ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> 
> 

----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 17:18:43 1997
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Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:12:14 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> >This presumes that somehow the "taiwanese clone manufacturers" can
> >ride on the backs of the marketing companies.  This is an unlikely
> >scenario -- each company must do it's own marketing.
> 
> What planet are you from? There are HUNDREDS of ne2000 clones that
> do zero marketing. Infotel and a hoard of other DEC chip clones rode
> SMC...now SMC is in having big problems.

How do people who intend to purchase the things find them, then?  8-).


> You cant patent an interface, and with a single chip solution you dont
> have to make many changes to a card to copy the interface without
> violating any copyrights.

Even if you can't *patent* an interface, you can sure as hell
copyright one, as Adaptec and Diamond and Matrox have demonstrated.


> You could have EXACTLY the same hardware
> layout as another card and route the traces differently and its not a
> violation. If you make your interface public, there are lots of ways
> to clone the card..you dont even have to use the same parts, but you
> can sell your (cheap) hardware on the public perception that the
> software drivers are stable.

Then pull a "Nintendo", and put a patented chip on your card that
isn't on anyone elses card (without a license from you) that shuffles
the command set, or whatever, so the drivers aren't generic.

Or get together with the manufacturer to have it read command codes
out of a ROM you copyright, and then each clone manufacturer has to
violate your ROM copyright to use the "generic" drivers.  Make it
a two chip soloution, where the layout is the same for all vendors,
and the second chip differs.

Or hire Taiwanese (or other) manufacturers to build your card for you,
instead of doing it with inflated and over-valued US labor.  All the
disk manufacturers have gone this route -- even IOmega.  Then you can
compete on an equal footing with the clone card vendors.

Or (gasp!) charge what the market will bear for your commodity cards.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 17:26:37 1997
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To: Don Yuniskis <dgy@rtd.com>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Subject: Re: DES policy 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 15:20:04 PDT."
             <199705122220.PAA02508@seagull.rtd.com> 
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:26:50 -0700
Message-ID: <5990.863483210@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> Yet, it appears that the 2.2.1R CD *does* include the DES stuff.
>      Has there been a change in policy regarding the inclusion of
> the DES stuff on the CD-ROMs?  If so, could someone indicate if the 

Yes.

> policy is expected to remain in force and any reasons behind it
> (personally, I *like* not having to ftp the DES stuff separately

It's expected to remain in force for as long as the Bernstein decision
holds. :-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 17:29:21 1997
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To: Sean Eric Fagan <sef@Kithrup.COM>
cc: dgy@rtd.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: DES policy 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 15:51:44 PDT."
             <199705122251.PAA27081@kithrup.com> 
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:29:32 -0700
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> Sadly, what is not helpful is that the gov't changed their regulations in
> response to this ruling, so there is considerable doubt as to whether it
> still applies.  That means that WC CD-ROM and Jordan Hubbard could find
> themselves arrested for violating the ITAR regulations.  (And the rest of
> the world will laugh, really -- the regulations are pitiful, idiotic, and
> serve no interest but the NSA's.  And for what is included on the CD-ROM,
> not even theirs.)

Well, we just do what our lawyer says it's OK to do.. :)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 17:37:53 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 17:37:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brian N. Handy" <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: newfs hangs my system?
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I wrote, not 30 minutes ago:

>[...]  Newfs is hanging my machine.  


And I've figured out my problem.  I was doing

	newfs [options] /dev/ccd0c

And I shoulda been doing

	newfs [options] /dev/rccd0c


Why was I doing this?  This problem wasn't unique to my CCD, I was able to
crash my machine without this.  No, the problem is in the man page for
newfs.  I quoth from the examples:

EXAMPLES
           mount_mfs -s=20480 -o nosuid,nodev /dev/sd0b /tmp


--> shouldn't this be /dev/rsd0b?


Thanks,

Brian


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 17:40:42 1997
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Subject: Re: newfs hangs my system?
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> ...but when I try to newfs it, the system hangs.  I'll do something like:
> 
> lambic:~ [12]->newfs -b 8192 -f 1024 /dev/ccd0c /a

Try:
newfs -b 8192 -f 1024 /dev/rccd0c /a
                           ^^^^^^

It shoudln't cause lockups to use the block device, but at least this
should get you going.  (Note the "r" in front of the device.)


Nate
> tight.  This is not unique to my ccd filesystem either;  if I just try to
> newfs the drives alone (/dev/sd1s1e for example) I get the same behavior.

Try /dev/rsd1s1e instead. 


Nate

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 18:01:21 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:01:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>
To: Kyle Mestery <mestery@cobber.cord.edu>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: PPP with a livingston portmaster
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Kyle Mestery wrote:

> 
> I am having trouble getting user PPP to work with my ISP.  I am running 
> 2.2 built as of May 5 on a Pentium 150 with a Motorolla modem.  The 
> problem is this:  Previously with my old service provider, all I did was 
> login with my username and password and then type ppp and their side 
> started teh negotiation of the connection.  Now, with my new provider, I 
> login with my username and password, and then I get a host: prompt.  My 
> ISP tech people told me this is where I need to begin the ppp process. No 
> problem, I typed 'set openmode active' to tell my machine to start the 
> process.  It sends 5 LCP packets to the portmaster, but none get 
> returned, and then it hangs up the line.  This is frustrating, because my 
> ISP tech people told me to not use LCP.  Has anyone else had similar 
> problems or found a solution?
> 
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Kyle A.D. Mestery                | 	  --* POWERED BY FREEBSD *--
> 1901 20th St. S #4		 | Network Support Specialist
> Moorhead, MN 56560               | Concordia College, Moorhead, MN
> 218-236-6359			 | "My other computer runs UNIX also" -TJ
> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> 
> 
> 
> 

  Livingston Portmaster terminal servers will autodetect PPP at the login
prompt (I don't think they will at the host: prompt, but I never used the
host prompt).  Configure ppp to use PAP for authentication, dial the
number, and initiate ppp.  The Portmaster will autodectect the PPP frames,
and then accept your user-id and password via PAP.

Tom



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 18:03:15 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:02:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> Chuck:
> Read the URL, it has a list of bugs. GNU tar is not POSIX. I'm not sure
> of putting in "star" either, I'm testing it now. For sure we should at
> least upgrade GNU tar.
> What ever happened to BSD tar? It was pre-POSIX but it was an option
> also.
> 
> 	--Pedro.

  BSD tar was discarded with 4.4, and "replaced" with pax.  BSDI 2.1
hardlinks tar to pax.

Tom



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 18:06:46 1997
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@caip.rutgers.edu>
To: terry@lambert.org
CC: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
        current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <199705121908.MAA08042@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry
	Lambert on Mon, 12 May 1997 12:08:31 -0700 (MST))
Subject: Re: PATCHES: NFS server locking support
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   From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
   Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 12:08:31 -0700 (MST)

   If you can guaranteee that you can hash the handle values in user
   space because the handle values are not unique in the conversion
   part between client systems, then you're all set... and it's not a
   problem.  F_CNVT will only be called once per hash miss in that
   case.

Why not put lockd into the kernel as a kernel thread and avoid all of
this overhead?  That's what we do and it works extremely well...

---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s   ////
ethernet.  Beat that!                     ////
-----------------------------------------////__________  o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 18:24:57 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:24:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Eric J. Chet" <ejc@bazzle.com>
To: "Russell L. Carter" <rcarter@consys.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, dob@bazzle.com
Subject: Re: omniORB port to FreeBSD
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Russell L. Carter wrote:

> 
> Any orbaholics interested in working with me to
> port omniORB to FreeBSD pthreads please drop me a line.  The C++
> binding is very attractive.  ILU works fine of course but
> the C++ binding is too flaky to use right now.
> 
>        *******  Free CORBA 2 ORB for C++ available now  *******
> 
>                                       
> The Olivetti and Oracle Research Laboratory has made available the first
> public release of omniORB (version 2.2.0). We also refer to this version
> as omniORB2.
> 
>          http://www.orl.co.uk/omniORB/omniORB.html


Hello

	I just build this under FreeBSD-current without many problems.
The first two echo examples work fine the last core dumps.  My first goal
was to just get it to compile.  Tomorrow I will work on getting the bugs
out.  Once I have a set of patches I will make them available, then I will
work on a port.

Later,

                                              Eric J. Chet
					       - ejc@naserver1.cb.lucent.com
                                               - ejc@bazzle.com



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 18:35:51 1997
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Message-Id: <199705130134.LAA12123@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <199705121918.MAA08071@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "May 12, 97 12:18:29 pm"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:04:46 +0930 (CST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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Terry Lambert stands accused of saying:
> 
> The unit production cost is the thing, and SMC is going to have a
> lower unit production cost than "Joe Schmoe" because of quantity
> price breaks from their vendors, and economies of scale on production.

They also have brand identification and loyalty that lets them sell
their product successfully at twice the price of a "noname" startup
competitor, with equivalent (or lower) manufacturing costs.

> If you think DEC isn't going to sell those specs to "Joe Schmoe" in
> order to protect SMC's market, then you have another thing coming.

This is the beauty of the seperated chip/board vendor model 8)

> 					Terry Lambert

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 18:39:21 1997
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Message-Id: <199705130138.LAA12157@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970512153659.00b31ec0@etinc.com> from dennis at "May 12, 97 03:37:02 pm"
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:08:58 +0930 (CST)
Cc: luigi@labinfo.iet.unipi.it, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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dennis stands accused of saying:
>
> You may not *think* so, but remember if no major manufacture builds
> initially with the chip, then there is no market for the clones, or
> the chip. The chip manufacturers are going to get pressure from the
> big guys to not make the specs public...although no one really gives
> a hoot about unix....Windows is the real market.

Sure.  But there is a model for this; 3com.  Yes, a lot of people buy 
their cards, but just at the moment their PCI stuff sucks, and people
_aren't_ buying them around here at least.

> If SMC or HP says, "We'll buy 5 million ICs if you dont make the
> spec public"...its likely to happen.

... only SMC have a reputation for using off-the-shelf parts in datasheet
implementations and doing it well (8390x, 21x4x), so it's hard to see
them changing tack just now.

> db

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 18:48:01 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:47:27 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:

> > >This presumes that somehow the "taiwanese clone manufacturers" can
> > >ride on the backs of the marketing companies.  This is an unlikely
> > >scenario -- each company must do it's own marketing.
> > 
> > What planet are you from? There are HUNDREDS of ne2000 clones that
> > do zero marketing. Infotel and a hoard of other DEC chip clones rode
> > SMC...now SMC is in having big problems.

I didn't know SMC was having problems.  I think 3COM and Intel pushing for
integrated ethernet on the motherboard is more of threat to SMC than the
clone makers.

Mike


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 18:51:42 1997
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In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970512164753.00c39a40@etinc.com> from dennis at "May 12, 97 04:47:56 pm"
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:20:13 +0930 (CST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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dennis stands accused of saying:
>
> Horse Hockey! This is the old IBM PC problem....who is going to
> establish the market if noone can make enough margin to pay for the
> initial marketing?

The "reference implementation" has to be good enough.

> Companies like DEC will have to make business decisions about
> whether they want to have a handful of OEMs or sell to the general
> public. I think that there will be "limited" agreements, in which
> the manufacturers of ASICs keep the specs under wraps for a year or
> two, letting the marketing companies recover their investments, and
> then flood the market for the taiwanese clone manufacturers.

*shrug*  Doesn't seem to work like that, bucko.  Witness the NE[12]000,
SMC8xx3, and now the cards based on the Digital chipset (starting with
the DEC cards themselves).

In each case, it was the reference implementation standing well on its
own despite being built with documented off-the-shelf parts that lead
to the general acceptance of the architecture as a market standard.

Amusingly enough, this is the same as for the PC in the first place.

> Dennis

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 18:55:29 1997
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From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, current@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PATCHES: NFS server locking support
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:

> I expected to handle the blocking locks using one of three methods:
> 
> 1)	The semantic override.  Because the locks are asserted
> 	using (struct flock).l_rsys != RSYS_LOCAL (0), we could
> 	decide to generate select() events for the fd's on which
> 	there were outstanding locks.
> 
> 2)	The async call gate.  Ideally, all potentially blocking
> 	system calls should be usable using an async vs. sync trap
> 	mechanism that cretes an aio context record for the call.
> 	This is actually the ideally method of implementing a
> 	Unversity of Washington style user space threading system,
> 	either for POSIX user space threads, or for SunOS 4.x liblwp
> 	Light Weight Processes.  An async call may be polled and
> 	timed out using aiowait() and aiocancel(), respectively.

John Dyson's working on POSIX AIO and dual concurrent threading.  I'm not
sure how far he's gotten though.
 
> 3)	The poll(2) interface.  This interface allows for events
> 	other than the read/write/except events allowed to select;
> 	there were a number of people in the core team who were
> 	talking about integrating the poll(2) code from NetBSD as
> 	the basis for the select(2) call.  A "lock event" could deal
> 	with this.

Regards,


Mike Hancock


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 18:58:15 1997
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Free OO
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 18:58:17 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Since the FreeBSD  OO group at least in a public forum is in an embryonic
stage , I feel that it is best to keep it first a private mailing
list and the web site on my host machine . Once the group takes off 
we will move it to www.freebsd.org. Sorry guys the intended mailing
is for technical and production purposes . What I am really after 
are project leaders which can take on responsibility for different
components: CORBA, OO GUI, OO projects, etc...


http://rah.star-gate.com/oo.html

This is just a place holder for all sorts of interesting OO packages or 
programs. Right now is just a skeleton page with various http pointers
to major interesting OO packages. 

It is obvious that all sort of interesting things are happening in the
OO World . In order to exploit and research various OO ideas or systems
I decided to start, "Mother Tongue",  document editor project. More on
this as I formulate the architure.

If anyone else wishes to host the OO page and mailing list please let 
me know cause this *is* a development machine.

I will post later on when the mailing list is fully operational .

	Enjoy,
	Amancio




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:04:02 1997
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Message-Id: <199705130203.LAA12329@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.95.970513104546.16734A-100000@parkplace.cet.co.jp> from Michael Hancock at "May 13, 97 10:47:27 am"
To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:33:36 +0930 (CST)
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Michael Hancock stands accused of saying:
> 
> > > What planet are you from? There are HUNDREDS of ne2000 clones that
> > > do zero marketing. Infotel and a hoard of other DEC chip clones rode
> > > SMC...now SMC is in having big problems.
> 
> I didn't know SMC was having problems.  I think 3COM and Intel pushing for
> integrated ethernet on the motherboard is more of threat to SMC than the
> clone makers.

*laugh*  First thing I'd do with a motherboard with a 3com chip on it is
put a decent ethernet card in it 8)

> Mike

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:07:25 1997
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Subject: Re: project: editor
In-Reply-To: <199705121827.LAA11691@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 12, 97 11:27:30 am"
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:37:11 +0930 (CST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying:
> Thats a different story and we should upgrade our tcl . A few interesting
> things are happening at Sun -- webtk , a tk based web server, etc...

I think that Tcl 8.0 is in the same state as Perl 5 - waiting for the
final release.  I can't see any serious value in going to 7.6 given that
it would be outdated so quickly.

> 	Amancio

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:07:27 1997
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Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
In-Reply-To: <199705121846.LAA08003@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "May 12, 97 11:46:24 am"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:36:00 +0930 (CST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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Terry Lambert stands accused of saying:
> 
> The rotation in Win95 is caused by the loading of the systray.exe dll
> by the explorer, actually, so it would not be inconsistent to call
> the rotate function from the boot stage probe iteration code.

I don't honestly think that the probe code has any business doing that,
unless we're trying to add a periodic-update hook to the whole boot
process.  

Right now, the splash go-away poll happens during console text output,
which is IMHO about the most sensible place to put it.  I was planning on
doing one rotation for every ~10 characters output, or perhaps one per
newline.

> 					Terry Lambert

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:09:25 1997
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Subject: Re: divert and ethernet addresses?
In-Reply-To: <19970512101815.52772@crh.cl.msu.edu> from Charles Henrich at "May 12, 97 10:18:15 am"
To: henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu (Charles Henrich)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:39:01 +0930 (CST)
Cc: brian@awfulhak.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Charles Henrich stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > This is what /dev/bpf* are for AFAIK.  But I've never had the
> > pleasure of doing anything tcpdump'ish.
> 
> Yea, but does /dev/bpf allow you to write to it? 

Yes, although for some unknown reason libpcap opens the bpf device 
readonly.  I don't think I ever got a response last time I asked why...

>        Charles Henrich     Michigan State University     henrich@msu.edu

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:10:08 1997
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Hi,

I'm upgrading my FreeBSD server to a Compaq presario 64 megs ram (2.2.1
release).  When it boots i get
 
639/15360 of memory  

Why can FreeBSD see all the ram installed...?

btw, Windows95 can see all the ram, so it seems to be properly installed.

Anyone ever tried to install FreeBSD on a Compaq...and had it working
properly?

Thanks,

---
Louis-Philippe Reid
Service Internet - Vidéotron Ltée



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:12:04 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:11:03 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <199705130203.LAA12329@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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On Tue, 13 May 1997, Michael Smith wrote:

> > I didn't know SMC was having problems.  I think 3COM and Intel pushing for
> > integrated ethernet on the motherboard is more of threat to SMC than the
> > clone makers.
> 
> *laugh*  First thing I'd do with a motherboard with a 3com chip on it is
> put a decent ethernet card in it 8)

I used to think the same way, but the recent 3COM stuff seems to be pretty
good.

Mike


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:15:43 1997
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Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970512101113.00bac288@etinc.com> from dennis at "May 12, 97 10:11:16 am"
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:45:08 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org
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dennis stands accused of saying:
> >
> >Uhh.  Dennis, pride doesn't pay the bills.  Pride doesn't buy hardware
> >for you to support.
> 
> It this a line from Animal Farm?

No.  Are you a redneck?

> >Vendors answer the phone?  Hah!  You gotta be dreaming.  I've been
> >hounding vendors for chip programming details for years, and the scene
> >really hasn't changed a lot over time.  The "nice" people still make
> >data free, the "nasty" ones still hoard it jealously.
> 
> Would be nice, wouldn't it?

Indeed. 

> Certain things you're just not gonna get...so deal with it. Do you
> think that SMC is gonna build another card with DEC-like chip when
> anyone with a $500. layout program can clone the board and steal
> their market?

I can't see why not.  They've been doing it for the last 15 years, I
can't see them stopping now.  If they do, I can see a lot of people
giving them the Diamond/Matrox/Microchannel shoulder.

(And if you actually _use_ a $500 layout suite, I feel _really_ sorry
 for you.  And I have less faith in your products 8)

> Its getting so easy to clone hardware, particularly
> with single chip solutions, that you're going to see big vendors
> refuse to use parts that have public specs...like you said, you
> gotta pay the bills, and it doesnt pay to build hardware with
> readily available hardware with public specs.

There's no money in vanilla hardware, regardless of whether it uses
publically-specified parts or not.   The money is in image and software.

If you have an image (eg. SMC, Intel, 3com), you can sell that on top
of your at-cost hardware.  If you have software for your cards, you can
sell that too.  

If you're a klone vendor, you have to survive on the tiny margins to
be had from your manufacturing.  With no image to trade, and possibly
with less wonderful software, you're not likely to be a serious threat
to the original manufacturer for the life of the product.

> Dennis

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:16:17 1997
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Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.95.970513110925.16734D-100000@parkplace.cet.co.jp> from Michael Hancock at "May 13, 97 11:11:03 am"
To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:45:49 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org
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Michael Hancock stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > *laugh*  First thing I'd do with a motherboard with a 3com chip on it is
> > put a decent ethernet card in it 8)
> 
> I used to think the same way, but the recent 3COM stuff seems to be pretty
> good.

Hmm, are they still using the family with the 2k onboard buffer, or
have they fixed that?

> Mike

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:17:21 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:17:02 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: FreeBSD Hackers <Hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: DCE NCS
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Is there a good distribution of DCE RPC somewhere?  I'd like to extract
the NCS bits.  I'm interested in something more endian-neutral than XDR.

Regards,


Mike Hancock


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:28:53 1997
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From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <199705130215.LAA12497@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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On Tue, 13 May 1997, Michael Smith wrote:

> Michael Hancock stands accused of saying:
> > > 
> > > *laugh*  First thing I'd do with a motherboard with a 3com chip on it is
> > > put a decent ethernet card in it 8)
> > 
> > I used to think the same way, but the recent 3COM stuff seems to be pretty
> > good.
> 
> Hmm, are they still using the family with the 2k onboard buffer, or
> have they fixed that?

Let's see...

Ok found it, http://www.3com.com/0files/products/dsheets/400243.html

Transmit/Receive Buffer Memory

8 KB. Partitioned at 4 KB/4 KB and may be partitioned at 5 KB/3
KB, 6 KB/2 KB, or 2 KB/6 KB. 

Mike



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:33:46 1997
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From: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCMXY4KyEhPz8wbBsoQg==?= <HBF01016@niftyserve.or.jp>
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Dear hackers, Danny,Jordan, and Eivind
Thank you for your swift reply, and informations of bug fixes. 
The book will be published in June. I hope it could be a help for spreading 
FreeBSD.
Kouji Hasegawa, Editor
HBF01016@niftyserve.or.jp
Shuwa System Co.,Ltd
1-26-1 Minamiaoyama Minatoku Tokyo 107
JAPAN

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:33:56 1997
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Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.95.970513112638.17136A-100000@parkplace.cet.co.jp> from Michael Hancock at "May 13, 97 11:28:25 am"
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Michael Hancock stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > Hmm, are they still using the family with the 2k onboard buffer, or
> > have they fixed that?
> 
> Let's see...
> 
> Ok found it, http://www.3com.com/0files/products/dsheets/400243.html
> 
> Transmit/Receive Buffer Memory
> 
> 8 KB. Partitioned at 4 KB/4 KB and may be partitioned at 5 KB/3
> KB, 6 KB/2 KB, or 2 KB/6 KB. 

*puke*  Still too small to be taken seriously, unless it can busmaster
the frames across into main memory autonomously.

Think "NFS datagram".

> Mike

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:47:29 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:44:13 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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Chuck Robey wrote:
> 
> It wasn't as standard as GNU tar.  In my own experience, GNU tar, while
> not perfect, was the best tar out there, which is why I was somewhat
> skeptical of you wanting to move to another.  I didn't say it was
> perfect, just the best alternative.
> 
OK, I'm just checking out the options. I didn't like star either. I'll
probably use PAX from now on.
Here's what star's author says about PAX:
___________
      2)      pax / ustar  i.e. SunOS 4.1	(USENIX)

                - Dumps core on every even/odd use.
                - Computes checksums only on the first 500 bytes of the 
                  tar header: not conforming to Posix 1003.1 standard.

                Note:   This claims to be a reference implementation for
                        the Posix 1003.1 standard!
____________

Fixable, when compared with his diagnostic of gnu tar.

	Pedro.


> 
> ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data
> chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
> 9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
> Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
> (301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
> ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:54:26 1997
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Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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Tom Samplonius wrote:
> 
>   BSD tar was discarded with 4.4, and "replaced" with pax.  BSDI 2.1
> hardlinks tar to pax.
> 
Thanks for the hint.
The GNU tar bug must be something very stupid, one notation is accepted
and the other isn't (something like this):

tar -cbf filename.tar 10 *				Doesn't work !
tar --create --file filename.tar --blocksize 10 *	works! 

regards,

	--Pedro.

> Tom

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 19:59:18 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:59:01 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <199705130233.MAA12644@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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On Tue, 13 May 1997, Michael Smith wrote:

> > Ok found it, http://www.3com.com/0files/products/dsheets/400243.html
> > 
> > Transmit/Receive Buffer Memory
> > 
> > 8 KB. Partitioned at 4 KB/4 KB and may be partitioned at 5 KB/3
> > KB, 6 KB/2 KB, or 2 KB/6 KB. 
> 
> *puke*  Still too small to be taken seriously, unless it can busmaster
> the frames across into main memory autonomously.

It does busmaster.  All the current mainstream 3COM, Intel, and DEC cards
look pretty competitive when browsing.

The Intel Server card has a 1MB.

http://www.intel.com/network/doc/6285/index.htm

Does fxp support this card.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 20:04:41 1997
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Message-Id: <199705130304.MAA13243@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SV4.3.95.970513115327.17288A-100000@parkplace.cet.co.jp> from Michael Hancock at "May 13, 97 11:59:01 am"
To: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:34:30 +0930 (CST)
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Michael Hancock stands accused of saying:
> On Tue, 13 May 1997, Michael Smith wrote:
> 
> > > Ok found it, http://www.3com.com/0files/products/dsheets/400243.html
> > > 
> > > Transmit/Receive Buffer Memory
> > > 
> > > 8 KB. Partitioned at 4 KB/4 KB and may be partitioned at 5 KB/3
> > > KB, 6 KB/2 KB, or 2 KB/6 KB. 
> > 
> > *puke*  Still too small to be taken seriously, unless it can busmaster
> > the frames across into main memory autonomously.
> 
> It does busmaster.  All the current mainstream 3COM, Intel, and DEC cards
> look pretty competitive when browsing.

The question I had was whether it busmasters _autonomously_, or only
on request, ie. do you have to ask it to dump its guts in response to
an interrupt, or will it do it every time it gets a frame?

> The Intel Server card has a 1MB.

Ow, that's more like it 8)

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 20:05:46 1997
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To: "Brian N. Handy" <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
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Subject: Re: newfs hangs my system? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 16:53:45 PDT."
             <Pine.OSF.3.96.970512164812.12315A-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com> 
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:04:17 -0600
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>lambic:~ [12]->newfs -b 8192 -f 1024 /dev/ccd0c /a
>

I haven't tried to verify it yet, but my guess is that newfs'ing the
block device causes some kind of buffer deadlock if the partition is
large enough.  Can you newfs the raw partition?

--
Justin T. Gibbs
===========================================
  FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations
===========================================

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 20:31:37 1997
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From: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> Tom Samplonius wrote:
> > 
> >   BSD tar was discarded with 4.4, and "replaced" with pax.  BSDI 2.1
> > hardlinks tar to pax.
> > 
> Thanks for the hint.
> The GNU tar bug must be something very stupid, one notation is accepted
> and the other isn't (something like this):
> 
> tar -cbf filename.tar 10 *				Doesn't work !

  Well, this is wrong for a start.  The params are in the wrong order, and
you shouldn't use a "-" with single letter options:

tar cbf 10 filename.tar *

(params in right order, and no "-")

> tar --create --file filename.tar --blocksize 10 *	works! 
> 
> regards,
> 
> 	--Pedro.
> 
> > Tom
> 
> 

Tom


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 20:35:29 1997
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To: "Brian N. Handy" <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
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Subject: Re: newfs hangs my system?
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> And I've figured out my problem.  I was doing
> 
> 	newfs [options] /dev/ccd0c
> 
> And I shoulda been doing
> 
> 	newfs [options] /dev/rccd0c
> 
> Why was I doing this?  This problem wasn't unique to my CCD, I was able to
> crash my machine without this.  No, the problem is in the man page for
> newfs.  I quoth from the examples:
> 
> EXAMPLES
>            mount_mfs -s=20480 -o nosuid,nodev /dev/sd0b /tmp
> 
> 
> --> shouldn't this be /dev/rsd0b?

Not for the mount command.  You 'mount' block devices, but you create
(newfs) using the character device.

Basically, it's just unix magic. :) :) :)


Nate

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 20:42:57 1997
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	(pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co)
Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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   Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:50:53 -0700
   From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>

   tar -cbf filename.tar 10 *				Doesn't work !
   tar --create --file filename.tar --blocksize 10 *	works! 

Does:

tar -cbf 10 filename.tar *

work?  That's how the argument value ordering is supposed to work last
I checked.

---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s   ////
ethernet.  Beat that!                     ////
-----------------------------------------////__________  o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 20:54:59 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 23:54:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>
To: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>
cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Tom Samplonius wrote:

> 
> On Mon, 12 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
> 
> > Tom Samplonius wrote:
> > > 
> > >   BSD tar was discarded with 4.4, and "replaced" with pax.  BSDI 2.1
> > > hardlinks tar to pax.
> > > 
> > Thanks for the hint.
> > The GNU tar bug must be something very stupid, one notation is accepted
> > and the other isn't (something like this):
> > 
> > tar -cbf filename.tar 10 *				Doesn't work !
> 
>   Well, this is wrong for a start.  The params are in the wrong order, and
> you shouldn't use a "-" with single letter options:

That's not true, the "-" is optional.  Man page:

The first argument word of the tar command line is usually a command word
of bundled function and modifier letters, optionally preceded by a dash;

I think you're right about the argument ordering, tho.

> 
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 20:57:34 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ???? 
Cc: michaelh@cet.co.jp (Michael Hancock), hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 May 1997 12:34:30 +0930."
		<199705130304.MAA13243@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> 
References: <199705130304.MAA13243@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>  
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 21:55:29 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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All this talk reminds me of all of those silly NE2000 compatible cards
that I have laying around useless since FreeBSD can't find them on
boot.  Any idea how to make FreeBSD probe really hard for them?

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 21:01:13 1997
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Cc: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>, Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>,
        hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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> The GNU tar bug must be something very stupid, one notation is accepted
> and the other isn't (something like this):
> 
> tar -cbf filename.tar 10 *				Doesn't work !
> tar --create --file filename.tar --blocksize 10 *	works! 

Umm, how about:

tar -cbf 10 filename.tar *

The order is important. :)


Nate

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 21:03:10 1997
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Message-Id: <199705130401.NAA13766@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <E0wR8gT-0004sS-00@rover.village.org> from Warner Losh at "May 12, 97 09:55:29 pm"
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:31:50 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, michaelh@cet.co.jp, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Warner Losh stands accused of saying:
> All this talk reminds me of all of those silly NE2000 compatible cards
> that I have laying around useless since FreeBSD can't find them on
> boot.  Any idea how to make FreeBSD probe really hard for them?

Can you be more specific?  Are these PCI or ISA cards?  Which chip(set)?

If these are the stupid ones that use the external serial EEPROM then
either (if the prom is socketed) you can pull the PROM, read it,
crossreference it against the datasheet, and there you are.

Alternatively, just sit down and boot with -c, going through the possible
address values (0x280, 0x300, 0x320, 0x340, 0x360) looking for them.
Then repeat the process looking for the IRQ.

Or are these cards where you know the settings but they don't show up?

The 'problem' with probing wildly for 'ed' cards is just that you have
to kick them to make them talk.  If you kick something else instead, it
might get upset.

> Warner

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 21:04:05 1997
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Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:59:50 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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Tom Samplonius wrote:
> 
>   Well, this is wrong for a start.  The params are in the wrong order, and
> you shouldn't use a "-" with single letter options:
> 
> tar cbf 10 filename.tar *
> 
> (params in right order, and no "-")
> 
If I remember well, I copied the example from the manpage !
mt(2?) didn't fix the blocksize either, but I'm not sure of that format:
setenv TAPE /dev/rwt0
mt BLOCKSIZE 10

Anyway I did get that working with the alternate form of tar, What keeps
me worried is that I'll have to use gnu tar on every box.

thanks !

Pedro.

> >
> > > Tom
> >
> >
> 
> Tom

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 21:05:38 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:03:57 +1000
From: David Dawes <dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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On Mon, May 12, 1997 at 09:50:53PM -0700, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
>Tom Samplonius wrote:
>> 
>>   BSD tar was discarded with 4.4, and "replaced" with pax.  BSDI 2.1
>> hardlinks tar to pax.
>> 
>Thanks for the hint.
>The GNU tar bug must be something very stupid, one notation is accepted
>and the other isn't (something like this):
>
>tar -cbf filename.tar 10 *				Doesn't work !

The following work (with gnu tar on FreeBSD 2.2.x):

tar cbf 10 filename.tar *

and:

tar cfb filename.tar 10 *

tar -c -f filename.tar -b 10 *

also works.

According to the man page, your example should work if you reversed the
"filename.tar" and "10" arguments, but it doesn't.  The man page is however
a FreeBSD addition.  According to the documentation that comes with gnu
tar:

]]Short options letters may be lumped together, but contrary to old
]]options, they do not necessarily have to.  When short options are
]]nevertheless coalesced, use a single dash for them all.  Only the last
]]one in such a set is allowed to have an argument.

So, it is behaving as documented, and the FreeBSD man page isn't accurate:

     The first argument word of the tar command line is usually a command word
     of bundled function and modifier letters, optionally preceded by a dash;
     it must contain exactly one function letter from the set A, c, d, r, t,
     u, x, for append, create, difference, replace, table of contents, update,
     and extract (further described below).  The command word can also contain
     other function modifiers described below, some of which will take argu-
     ments from the command line in the order they are specified in the com-
     mand word (review the EXAMPLES section).  Functions and function modi-


David

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 21:14:18 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ???? 
Cc: michaelh@cet.co.jp, hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 May 1997 13:31:50 +0930."
		<199705130401.NAA13766@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> 
References: <199705130401.NAA13766@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>  
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:14:00 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199705130401.NAA13766@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes:
: Can you be more specific?  Are these PCI or ISA cards?  Which chip(set)?

ISA.  Not sure, but I think 8390 based somehow.  There is one that has
NE83902 on it, while another one has two chips with labeled "MB86950B"
and "MB86953" (both Fuji parts).  I was told these are all NE2000
compatible, but I don't know where they are supposed to be on the bus
or IRQ range.  Oh, a third card: NE86950AB on it (hmmm, looks a little
familiar).

One card is labeled TIARA while another is TIARA LANCARD/F AT 10BT.
One has a NOVELL label on it, but using the -c option below you
suggested.

One has jumper blocks clearly labeled, but FreeBSD dosn't recognize
the card at all.  Might not be NE-2000 compatible?  That's the one
with the two chips I listed above....

: Alternatively, just sit down and boot with -c, going through the possible
: address values (0x280, 0x300, 0x320, 0x340, 0x360) looking for them.
: Then repeat the process looking for the IRQ.

Yuck.  Too bad you have to send packets before you know the IRQ is
correct or not :-(.  The Novell card lives at 0x320 I just discovered.

: Or are these cards where you know the settings but they don't show up?

For one of them yes.  Generally, I don't know where the cards actually
are, but the search technique above works well enough.

: The 'problem' with probing wildly for 'ed' cards is just that you have
: to kick them to make them talk.  If you kick something else instead, it
: might get upset.

Yes.  I'd love to say "I have a machine with nothing interesting in
it, please kick at will and tell me what you find out" :-)

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 21:22:37 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
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Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <E0wR8yO-0004tz-00@rover.village.org> from Warner Losh at "May 12, 97 10:14:00 pm"
To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:52:26 +0930 (CST)
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Warner Losh stands accused of saying:
> 
> ISA.  Not sure, but I think 8390 based somehow.  There is one that has
> NE83902 on it, 

Aha.  83902 is (if memory serves) an 8390 with onboard UTP.  It may have
a serial PROM, but it's definitely an 'ed' candidate.

> while another one has two chips with labeled "MB86950B"
> and "MB86953" (both Fuji parts).  I was told these are all NE2000
> compatible, but I don't know where they are supposed to be on the bus
> or IRQ range.  Oh, a third card: NE86950AB on it (hmmm, looks a little
> familiar).

I don't think these are "real" NE2000's.  The 'fe' driver supports
cards based on the 86960/86965 chipset; it's possible that you may
have some success with this, but the driver is fairly smart about only
identifying cards it actually _knows_ it supports, so you might have
to prod some of its debugging to get a real answer.

> One has jumper blocks clearly labeled, but FreeBSD dosn't recognize
> the card at all.  Might not be NE-2000 compatible?  That's the one
> with the two chips I listed above....

See above wrt. the 'fe' driver.

> Yuck.  Too bad you have to send packets before you know the IRQ is
> correct or not :-(.  The Novell card lives at 0x320 I just discovered.

Yeah, as long as your system boots fairly quickly it's not so bad though 8)

> : The 'problem' with probing wildly for 'ed' cards is just that you have
> : to kick them to make them talk.  If you kick something else instead, it
> : might get upset.
> 
> Yes.  I'd love to say "I have a machine with nothing interesting in
> it, please kick at will and tell me what you find out" :-)

It's all possible 8)  I hate having ideas and NO TIME ARGH ARGH ARGH.

*pant*  Sorry about that.

> Warner

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 21:24:37 1997
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You need to add the line in config file before compile kernel:

options         MAXMEM=131072        <=== mem you have


Alfonso Urbina

On Mon, 12 May 1997, Louis-Philippe Reid wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I'm upgrading my FreeBSD server to a Compaq presario 64 megs ram (2.2.1
> release).  When it boots i get
>  
> 639/15360 of memory  
> 
> Why can FreeBSD see all the ram installed...?
> 
> btw, Windows95 can see all the ram, so it seems to be properly installed.
> 
> Anyone ever tried to install FreeBSD on a Compaq...and had it working
> properly?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> ---
> Louis-Philippe Reid
> Service Internet - Vidéotron Ltée
> 
> 
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 21:30:42 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ???? 
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 May 1997 13:52:26 +0930."
		<199705130422.NAA13937@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> 
References: <199705130422.NAA13937@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>  
Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 22:28:50 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199705130422.NAA13937@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> Michael Smith writes:
: I don't think these are "real" NE2000's.  The 'fe' driver supports
: cards based on the 86960/86965 chipset; it's possible that you may
: have some success with this, but the driver is fairly smart about only
: identifying cards it actually _knows_ it supports, so you might have
: to prod some of its debugging to get a real answer.

OK.  Hmmm, does Linux support this card.... Hmmm, will have to check
out my Linux tree (if I can find it after the great disk shuffle).
Maybe it will give me clues.

: > One has jumper blocks clearly labeled, but FreeBSD dosn't recognize
: > the card at all.  Might not be NE-2000 compatible?  That's the one
: > with the two chips I listed above....
: 
: See above wrt. the 'fe' driver.

OK.  I'll have to give that a spin.  These two cards definitely are
ancestors of this.

: > Yuck.  Too bad you have to send packets before you know the IRQ is
: > correct or not :-(.  The Novell card lives at 0x320 I just discovered.
: 
: Yeah, as long as your system boots fairly quickly it's not so bad though 8)

My boot takes forever.

: > : The 'problem' with probing wildly for 'ed' cards is just that you have
: > : to kick them to make them talk.  If you kick something else instead, it
: > : might get upset.
: > 
: > Yes.  I'd love to say "I have a machine with nothing interesting in
: > it, please kick at will and tell me what you find out" :-)
: 
: It's all possible 8)  I hate having ideas and NO TIME ARGH ARGH ARGH.

I know the feeling...

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 21:46:19 1997
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From: John Hay <jhay@zibbi.mikom.csir.co.za>
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Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
In-Reply-To: <33780356.486F@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> from "Pedro F. Giffuni" at "May 12, 97 10:59:50 pm"
To: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (Pedro F. Giffuni)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 06:46:00 +0200 (SAT)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> Tom Samplonius wrote:
> > 
> >   Well, this is wrong for a start.  The params are in the wrong order, and
> > you shouldn't use a "-" with single letter options:
> > 
> > tar cbf 10 filename.tar *
> > 
> > (params in right order, and no "-")
> > 
> If I remember well, I copied the example from the manpage !
> mt(2?) didn't fix the blocksize either, but I'm not sure of that format:
> setenv TAPE /dev/rwt0
> mt BLOCKSIZE 10
> 
> Anyway I did get that working with the alternate form of tar, What keeps
> me worried is that I'll have to use gnu tar on every box.
> 

I use the tar that is in FreeBSD daily for backups to tape devices and
am using nondefault blocksizes and have yet to see a problem. Here is
the example out of the tar man page:
======
     To create an archive on tape drive /dev/rst0 with a block size of 20
     blocks, containing files named "bert" and "ernie", you can enter
           tar cfb /dev/rst0 20 bert ernie
     or
           tar --create --file /dev/rst0 --block-size 20 bert ernie
======

John
-- 
John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 22:19:07 1997
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References: <Pine.NEB.3.94.970512180204.6097B-100000@misery.sdf.com> <3377F32D.10DB@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970513140357.63713@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au>
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David Dawes wrote:
> 
> So, it is behaving as documented, and the FreeBSD man page isn't accurate:
> 
You are right. I never read the complete tar manpage, but only the
example (which was wrong). The "-" is optional as Chuck Robey noted.

The real problem, anyway, is that pax should be used instead of "tar"
when building packages or preparing the distribution, to be more
standard comformant. I think the ports tree uses pax anyway.

Pedro. 


> 
> David

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 22:28:11 1997
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To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
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Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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On Tue, May 13, 1997 at 12:15:28AM -0700, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
>David Dawes wrote:
>> 
>> So, it is behaving as documented, and the FreeBSD man page isn't accurate:
>> 
>You are right. I never read the complete tar manpage, but only the
>example (which was wrong). The "-" is optional as Chuck Robey noted.

The man page is wrong in stating that the "-" is optional, because the
behaviour is slightly different depending on whether the "-" is used or
not.  The example in the man page doesn't use the "-", and does work:

           tar cfb /dev/rst0 20 bert ernie

>The real problem, anyway, is that pax should be used instead of "tar"
>when building packages or preparing the distribution, to be more
>standard comformant. I think the ports tree uses pax anyway.

I've seen problems with pax -- both the original version which I
tried some years ago, and the version that comes with Digital Unix
(and to which tar and cpio are linked).  I've been avoiding it ever
since, and haven't tried the version included with FreeBSD.

David

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 22:29:12 1997
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Yes, it is available (and Freely redistributable). Take a look at:
http://www.osf.org/mall/dce/free_dce.htm
(The second item)

Pedro.


Michael Hancock wrote:
> 
> Is there a good distribution of DCE RPC somewhere?  I'd like to extract
> the NCS bits.  I'm interested in something more endian-neutral than XDR.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Mike Hancock

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 22:49:02 1997
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As Warner pointed me out, I screwed.
I typed cbf instead of cfb. tar is not in the same spirit of ls :(.

Sorry for the noise, continue with your local programming....

Pedro.

John Hay wrote:
> 
> ======
>      To create an archive on tape drive /dev/rst0 with a block size of 20
>      blocks, containing files named "bert" and "ernie", you can enter
>            tar cfb /dev/rst0 20 bert ernie
>      or
>            tar --create --file /dev/rst0 --block-size 20 bert ernie
> ======
> 
> John
> --
> John Hay -- John.Hay@mikom.csir.co.za



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 22:50:46 1997
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From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
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As Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> mt(2?) didn't fix the blocksize either, but I'm not sure of that format:

It's mt(1), and no, most today's tapes are variable blocksize anyway,
you can't use mt to enforce their blocksize.  `variable' means they
record a block in exactly the same size as you pass it down to the
write(2) command (well, up to a maximum which is currently still 64 KB
in FreeBSD, to cope with the limitations of some older SCSI
controllers).  That's why your application needs to know the
blocksize, not the tape driver.

Variable-length recorded tapes need to be written with at least a
similarly (or longer) sized read(2) syscall, or an error will occur.
(The st(4) driver will also syslog the size mismatch.)

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Mon May 12 23:32:05 1997
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In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970512221218.008ac650@pop.videotron.ca> from Louis-Philippe Reid at "May 12, 97 10:12:18 pm"
To: lpreid@videotron.com (Louis-Philippe Reid)
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> Hi,
> 
> I'm upgrading my FreeBSD server to a Compaq presario 64 megs ram (2.2.1
> release).  When it boots i get
>  
> 639/15360 of memory  
> 
> Why can FreeBSD see all the ram installed...?

Try setting the option "MAXMEM=(64*1024)" in your kernel configuration
file.  The options are documented in /sys/i386/conf/LINT.

Wolfgang

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 00:08:08 1997
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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Warner Losh scribbled this message on May 12:
> : > Yuck.  Too bad you have to send packets before you know the IRQ is
> : > correct or not :-(.  The Novell card lives at 0x320 I just discovered.
> : 
> : Yeah, as long as your system boots fairly quickly it's not so bad though 8)
> 
> My boot takes forever.

just boot single user (-s) and manually ifconfig it, test at will... :)

you don't always have to bring the whole system up to test minor parts
of it...

-- 
  John-Mark
  Cu Networking                             Modem/FAX: +1 541 683 6954

  Live in Peace, destroy Micro$oft, support free software, run FreeBSD

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 00:10:31 1997
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Once upon a time there used to be an wwd-xwud-xpr and somethingtopbm that
could print an X window or a portion thereof.

Now all I see is xwd and xwud, whose man page refers to xpr which is
nowhere to be seen.  xtopbm from pbmnet only deals with bitmaps.

I need, urgently to dump to a printer a number of X11 screens.  How?

Simon

d-xpr and somethingtopbm that
could print an X window or a portion thereof.

Now all I see is xwd and xwud, whose man page refers to xpr which is
nowhere to be seen.  xtopbm from pbmnet only deals with bitmaps.

I need, urgentl

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 00:16:05 1997
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To: John-Mark Gurney <gurney_j@resnet.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ???? 
Cc: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 May 1997 00:08:17 PDT."
		<19970513000817.01299@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> 
References: <19970513000817.01299@hydrogen.nike.efn.org>  <199705130422.NAA13937@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <E0wR9Ck-0004vC-00@rover.village.org> 
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:15:42 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <19970513000817.01299@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> John-Mark Gurney writes:
: just boot single user (-s) and manually ifconfig it, test at will... :)
: 
: you don't always have to bring the whole system up to test minor parts
: of it...

Yup.  However, 90% of the time to get to that point is probing device
and timeouts on my machine (2 scsi busses and 2 IDE controllers).  I
haven't commented some of them out yet.

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 00:16:58 1997
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To: Tom Samplonius <tom@sdf.com>
cc: Kyle Mestery <mestery@cobber.cord.edu>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: PPP with a livingston portmaster 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 18:01:00 PDT."
             <Pine.NEB.3.94.970512175918.6097A-100000@misery.sdf.com> 
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 07:56:08 +0100
From: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
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> 
> On Mon, 12 May 1997, Kyle Mestery wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I am having trouble getting user PPP to work with my ISP.  I am running 
> > 2.2 built as of May 5 on a Pentium 150 with a Motorolla modem.  The 
> > problem is this:  Previously with my old service provider, all I did was 
> > login with my username and password and then type ppp and their side 
> > started teh negotiation of the connection.  Now, with my new provider, I 
> > login with my username and password, and then I get a host: prompt.  My 
> > ISP tech people told me this is where I need to begin the ppp process. No 
> > problem, I typed 'set openmode active' to tell my machine to start the 
> > process.  It sends 5 LCP packets to the portmaster, but none get 
> > returned, and then it hangs up the line.  This is frustrating, because my 
> > ISP tech people told me to not use LCP.  Has anyone else had similar 
> > problems or found a solution?
> > 
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > Kyle A.D. Mestery                | 	  --* POWERED BY FREEBSD *--
> > 1901 20th St. S #4		 | Network Support Specialist
> > Moorhead, MN 56560               | Concordia College, Moorhead, MN
> > 218-236-6359			 | "My other computer runs UNIX also" -TJ
> > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
>   Livingston Portmaster terminal servers will autodetect PPP at the login
> prompt (I don't think they will at the host: prompt, but I never used the
> host prompt).  Configure ppp to use PAP for authentication, dial the
> number, and initiate ppp.  The Portmaster will autodectect the PPP frames,
> and then accept your user-id and password via PAP.

Grab the sources 'till the 12th (or at least end-of-play on the 9th).
Lots of changes were made that may help.

> Tom
> 
> 

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 00:35:40 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:34:41 +0300 (IDT)
From: Nadav Eiron <nadav@cs.technion.ac.il>
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To: Mr M P Searle <csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
cc: chuckr@mat.net, hackers@freebsd.org
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Mr M P Searle wrote:

> > 
> > 
> > On Mon, 12 May 1997, Chuck Robey wrote:
> > 
  [snip]
> >
> 
> Well, if it's on its own filesystem and doesn't touch anything else, no
> problem whatever. If it does touch something else, I'd have to move it to
> the separate filesystem (assuming it's just a few things.)
> 
> Time savings?! It takes <1 second to kill everything, plus the 5 second wait
> and maybe a second to flush buffers. This is just for a splash screen type
> thing.
> 
> > There's one other (potential) problem with this: /tmp. X keeps files open
> > on /tmp, and if tmp is MFS and can't be umounted strange things sometimes
> > happen. I remember reading on this list (or was it -questions) that 2.1.5
> > will not (sometimes) flush its buffers with a MFS /tmp mounted. I've never
> > seen it on newer systems, but it wasn't consistent on 2.1.5R either, so
> > you can never know.
> > 
> 
> Well, my /tmp is MFS, and right now I'm still on 2.1.0 (soon to be 3.0). Can
> X be told to put its temp files somewhere else (like /var/tmp)? Actually,
> I've seen it fail to flush all buffers before. I assumed it was some ancient
> bug that would be fixed when I upgraded.
> 
> 
I only saw that on 2.1.5 (neither 2.1.0 nor 2.1.6 and later), but most of
the machines I use stay up and running for months, so I don't get to watch
that many shutdowns.

Nadav


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 00:50:37 1997
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To: Simon Shapiro <Shimon@i-Connect.Net>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: URGENT:  Printing an X11 screen.  How?
References: <XFMail.970513000217.Shimon@i-Connect.Net>
From: Choi Jun Ho <junker@jazz.snu.ac.kr>
Date: 13 May 1997 16:51:05 +1000
In-Reply-To: Simon Shapiro's message of Mon, 12 May 1997 23:56:18 -0700 (PDT)
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Simon Shapiro <Shimon@i-Connect.Net> writes:

> Now all I see is xwd and xwud, whose man page refers to xpr which is
> nowhere to be seen.  xtopbm from pbmnet only deals with bitmaps.
> 
> I need, urgentl
> 

Use xv or ImageMagick(executable is display) to grab the window. You
may click root window(background) to grab all the screen.

Only difference of grab between xv and display is that xv grab with
window borders, but display don't.

-- 
|--Cool FreeBSD!-----MSX Forever!-----J.U.N.K.E.R/Beat Snatchers!--|
|Choi Jun Ho <junker@jazz.snu.ac.kr>  http://jazz.snu.ac.kr/~junker|
|Distributed Computing System Lab,CS Dept.,Seoul National Univ.,ROK|

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 00:57:37 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199705130757.RAA15749@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: URGENT:  Printing an X11 screen.  How?
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.970513000217.Shimon@i-Connect.Net> from Simon Shapiro at "May 12, 97 11:56:18 pm"
To: Shimon@i-Connect.Net (Simon Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:27:23 +0930 (CST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Simon Shapiro stands accused of saying:
[Charset iso-8859-8 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> Once upon a time there used to be an wwd-xwud-xpr and somethingtopbm that
> could print an X window or a portion thereof.
> 
> Now all I see is xwd and xwud, whose man page refers to xpr which is
> nowhere to be seen.  xtopbm from pbmnet only deals with bitmaps.
> 
> I need, urgently to dump to a printer a number of X11 screens.  How?

Use xv to grab your screen/window, then print from there.  (You'll
need a postscript printer/interpreter, I use apsfilter.)

> Simon

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 01:03:19 1997
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From: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Message-Id: <199705130811.KAA24381@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Subject: Re: g++ shared library segfaults
To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:11:08 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <19970510083142.OD64404@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "May 10, 97 08:31:42 am"
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According to J Wunsch:
> As Justin T. Gibbs wrote:
> 
> >    * As described above, the scope of variables declared in the
> >      initialization part of a for statement has been changed; such
> >      variables are now visible only in the loop body.  Use
> >      `-fno-for-scope' to get the old behavior.  You'll need this flag
> >      to build groff version 1.09, Ptolemy, and many other free software
> >      packages.
> 
> Du-oh.  While i always considered it poor style to declare a variable
> inside a for statement, when it was intended to use it later on, i
> think that's a fairly drastic change in the semantics.

For those that are interested, here's a nice link to some of the ANSI drafts:

http://www.cygnus.com/misc/wp/

  /Mikael

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 01:10:23 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:10:53 +0200 (MEST)
From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
Message-Id: <199705130810.KAA03359@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org
Subject: top / nice level problem
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I'm running the bovrc client (http://vex.net/rsa) at nice level 20
and a colleague is running another job at nice level 5.

Now he asks me: why does my job only get 50% of CPU while yours (at nice
level 20 also gets 50%)?

last pid: 11815;  load averages:  1.99,  1.97,  1.92                   10:00:06
30 processes:  3 running, 27 sleeping
CPU states:  0.0% user,  100% nice,  0.0% system,  0.0% interrupt,  0.0% idle
Mem: 13M Active, 1648K Inact, 9256K Wired, 5924K Cache, 3559K Buf, 1140K Free
Swap: 123M Total, 4556K Used, 119M Free, 4% Inuse

  PID USERNAME         PRI NICE SIZE   RES STATE C   TIME   WCPU    CPU COMMAND
10983 physicist       105  5 14148K  2028K CPU0  0 421:00 51.38% 51.38% bsd_di
 7415 kuku            105 20   164K   264K CPU0  0 969:38 47.61% 47.61% bovrc-
11781 kuku             18  0   648K  1012K pause 0   0:00  0.00%  0.00% tcsh
10982 physicist        18  5   468K   236K pause 0   0:00  0.00%  0.00% csh
10981 physicist        18  5   464K   232K pause 0   0:00  0.00%  0.00% csh
  141 root             18  0   368K   156K pause 0   0:03  0.00%  0.00% cron
   25 roo


Killing bovrc gives the following picture after a while:

last pid: 11824;  load averages:  1.28,  1.75,  1.84                   10:07:20
29 processes:  2 running, 27 sleeping
CPU states:  0.4% user, 98.4% nice,  0.0% system,  1.2% interrupt,  0.0% idle
Mem: 13M Active, 1828K Inact, 9316K Wired, 5948K Cache, 3557K Buf, 788K Free
Swap: 123M Total, 4352K Used, 119M Free, 3% Inuse

  PID USERNAME         PRI NICE SIZE   RES STATE C   TIME   WCPU    CPU COMMAND
10983 physicist       105  5 14148K  2028K CPU0  0 425:22 98.23% 98.23% bsd_di
11781 kuku             18  0   648K  1012K pause 0   0:00  0.00%  0.00% tcsh
10982 physicist        18  5   468K   236K pause 0   0:00  0.00%  0.00% csh
10981 physicist        18  5   464K   232K pause 0   0:00  0.00%  0.00% csh
  141 root             18  0   368K   176K pause 0   0:03  0.00%  0.00% cron
   25 root             18  0   208K     8K pause 0   0:00  0.00%  0.00% adjker
    1 root             10  0   496K    68K wait  0   0:00  0.00%  0.00% init
  125 root             10  0   212K     8K nfsidl0   0:08  0.00%  0.00% nfsiod
  126 root             10  0   212K     8K nfsidl0   0:06  0.00%  0.00% nfsiod

FreeBSD bach.physik.rwth-aachen.de 3.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Sun
May  4 18:01:24 CEST 1997     root@bach.physik.rwth-aachen.de:/usr/src/sys/
compile/NEWBACH  i386             

 
--
Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 01:41:05 1997
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Subject: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 01:41:09 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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"Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> pointed me out to:
http://opera.inrialpes.fr/thot/

So far it looks really look and it has been adopted by the w3c consortium.


Just build it over here and I am going to play it with for a while .
It does look good. This whole thing started out when I was trying to write
an architecture document for the sound driver and I got really frustrated
by the available editors . Downloaded StarOffice and found it less than
ideal for writing a technical document at least the Linux version.

I will continue with my document project which really is about testing
OO ideas and guess what "thot" and amaya are just that . At any rate,
thot and amaya are much mature than anything that I have over here which
is nothing at this stage. 

thot and amaya just compile right up on freebsd with not too much hazzle 
except for one it uses motif . 

For info on tot and amaya just follow the http link at the start of the email

If thot should prove to be  useful and stable we can adopt it .
Hey, if the code bloat bothers you it is well worth it to have a 
separate CDROM with tot and amaya, a web editor / browser. 
We can also include other OO packages such as ACE, ILU and a couple of
CORBA ORBs 8)

	Enjoy,
	Amancio




	

	


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 02:04:31 1997
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Subject: Re: URGENT:  Printing an X11 screen.  How?
In-Reply-To: <199705130757.RAA15749@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "May 13, 97 05:27:23 pm"
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:05:04 +0200 (MEST)
Cc: Shimon@i-Connect.Net, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Reply-To: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
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> Simon Shapiro stands accused of saying:
> [Charset iso-8859-8 unsupported, filtering to ASCII...]
> > Once upon a time there used to be an wwd-xwud-xpr and somethingtopbm that
> > could print an X window or a portion thereof.
> > 
> > Now all I see is xwd and xwud, whose man page refers to xpr which is
> > nowhere to be seen.  xtopbm from pbmnet only deals with bitmaps.
> > 
> > I need, urgently to dump to a printer a number of X11 screens.  How?
> 
> Use xv to grab your screen/window, then print from there.  (You'll
> need a postscript printer/interpreter, I use apsfilter.)

netpbm (I believe) has xwdtopnm.
You can do a xwd | xwdtopnm | <any pnm filter like one that converts to ps>


> 
> > Simon
> 
> -- 
> ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
> ]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
> ]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
> ]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
> ]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[
> 

--
Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 03:03:59 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:01:30 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johan Larsson <gozer@ludd.luth.se>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Wabi?
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Hi. I wonder if anyone got wabi for linux to work under freebsd. Aplixware
works as you all know just fine, but wabi seems to need some
/proc/meminfo etc.. Or is it any other problems that makes this impossible?

		/ Johan  
-- 
     * mailto:gozer@ludd.luth.se * http://www.ludd.luth.se/users/gozer/ *


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 03:10:06 1997
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From: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Message-Id: <199705131016.MAA25104@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:16:49 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705121843.LAA07981@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "May 12, 97 11:43:37 am"
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According to Terry Lambert:
> > >      Hmmm, not sure I understand where you're coming from.  If you're
> > > sitting at the text login prompt, why would you want the splash page to
> > > stay up?
> > 
> > If it's a server in a droid-heavy environment, eg., or otherwise needs to 
> > look "pretty".
> 
> Heh.
> 
> What about making the splash page come back up as the "screen saver"
> kicks in?  That way, if it's idle, it goes back to the splash and
> looks nice (again) for the droids after a logout.  8-).

Really... IMHO that would kinda suck (both of the above).
Although, with a small modification, it would be really nice.

How about this:

The splash screen should use an image ("/splash.pic" ?) that used the exact
logo.sys format. That would make it easy to use finished slashes out there,
without having to use some converter. It should be easy to read and put in
memory in any format you like it, no? That would make things like
"ln -s /dos/logo.sys /splash.pic" work too.

Color cycling should happen at an even pace, if possible. I'm not sure if
there's a way to get a timestamp while booting, but if so, the syscons driver
could simply check, every time it gets called, if say 1/4 of a second or more
have passed since last cycling, and if so, cycle the colors one step.
All these things would only have to be done in "splash screen on" mode,
ofcourse.

A new screen saver module should exist, which would display a picture in the
same format, and colorcycle that one in about the same pace. You could set
the filename for the picture with a sysctl, or something? Maybe just use a
hardcoded name like "/screensaver.pic". Also, I'd like an (sysctl again?)
option to make it go into powersave after X minutes (-1 == off ?).
That's something I miss with the current screensavers. I can't set it to
display a nice pic (or even just the starts saver, or something) after say 5
minutes, and after 20 minutes go into powersave mode.


Anyway... Enough ramblings from me. Any comments?

  /Mikael


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 03:43:22 1997
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Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
In-Reply-To: <199705131016.MAA25104@ocean.campus.luth.se> from Mikael Karpberg at "May 13, 97 12:16:49 pm"
To: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg)
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Mikael Karpberg stands accused of saying:
> 
> Really... IMHO that would kinda suck (both of the above).
> Although, with a small modification, it would be really nice.

"what is possible sucks, but my impossible fantasy would be just wonderful".

> How about this:
> 
> The splash screen should use an image ("/splash.pic" ?) that used the exact
> logo.sys format. That would make it easy to use finished slashes out there,

We have already noted that the "finished" splash image is a 320x400 
bmp file, as currently (partially) supported.

> without having to use some converter. It should be easy to read and put in
> memory in any format you like it, no? That would make things like
> "ln -s /dos/logo.sys /splash.pic" work too.

Symlinks are right out.  The file will have to be present, in place, 
in the root filesystem, in order to be read by the bootloader.

> Color cycling should happen at an even pace, if possible. I'm not sure if

It's already been explained that it can't.

>   /Mikael

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 04:41:20 1997
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Message-Id: <199705131140.NAA08005@sos.freebsd.dk>
Subject: Re: Wabi?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.95.970513115821.6418B-100000@brother.ludd.luth.se> from Johan Larsson at "May 13, 97 12:01:30 pm"
To: gozer@ludd.luth.se (Johan Larsson)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:40:51 +0200 (MEST)
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In reply to Johan Larsson who wrote:
> Hi. I wonder if anyone got wabi for linux to work under freebsd. Aplixware
> works as you all know just fine, but wabi seems to need some
> /proc/meminfo etc.. Or is it any other problems that makes this impossible?

There is a few minor nits, some easy some not.

I'm looking at it...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt               (sos@FreeBSD.org)               FreeBSD Core Team
                Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 05:21:21 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:20:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>
To: Choi Jun Ho <junker@jazz.snu.ac.kr>
cc: Simon Shapiro <Shimon@i-Connect.Net>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: URGENT: Printing an X11 screen. How?
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On 13 May 1997, Choi Jun Ho wrote:

> Simon Shapiro <Shimon@i-Connect.Net> writes:
> 
> > Now all I see is xwd and xwud, whose man page refers to xpr which is
> > nowhere to be seen.  xtopbm from pbmnet only deals with bitmaps.
> > 
> > I need, urgentl
> > 
> 
> Use xv or ImageMagick(executable is display) to grab the window. You
> may click root window(background) to grab all the screen.

I use this all the time to get prints out of spice.  You can use the 
middle button, than drag it, to get just the part of the screen you want 
to get (so you can eliminate the borders if you want).

> 
> Only difference of grab between xv and display is that xv grab with
> window borders, but display don't.
> 
> -- 
> |--Cool FreeBSD!-----MSX Forever!-----J.U.N.K.E.R/Beat Snatchers!--|
> |Choi Jun Ho <junker@jazz.snu.ac.kr>  http://jazz.snu.ac.kr/~junker|
> |Distributed Computing System Lab,CS Dept.,Seoul National Univ.,ROK|
> 
> 

----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 05:33:06 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:32:52 -0400
To: John Duncan <jddst19+@pitt.edu>
From: "Kevin P. Neal" <kpneal@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: An idea, it is possibly good
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At 10:35 AM 5/12/97 -0400, John Duncan wrote:
>Yves Lepage wrote:
>
>> here's an idea to enhance file systems's usefulness: virtual partitioning.

http://dynamic.isdn.uiuc.edu/~roth/vps/

I got to that link via the Linux Project Map. There's a mailing list set up
as well. It has Linux and BSD people on it.

>> Let's say I have a FreeBSD system on one big partition. Virtual
partititioning would
>> allow me for example to 'reserve' space for specified directories (at
mount time let's say).
>
>> Ideally, the reservations could be made/altered on a mounted file system,
possibly
>> using a remount with options.

Not with FFS. LFS would be a better (perhaps not best) move. LFS doesn't
work, but (if I'm not mistaken) John Dyson is rewriting it.

>Hmm. Yes, but I'm recalling a couple of lines from my high school
>code of conduct:
>
>13) Parents are asked to encourage their children to stay in school
>    and to help them not break the school code.
>
>14) Parents are also to encourage their children to partition their
>    disks in such a way that the minimum speed/space tradeoff
>    is attained, with regards to what will be stored on the disks.

Well, yes, but who can tune this with a minimum of difficulty?

>---
>I'd say that "virtual partitioning" is a good idea in as much as
>it is speedy to resize and rehash, _but_, I'm not sure if it's
>release-style material. Anyone with a backup tape can repartition a
>disk to find a better spacetime relationship in a matter of hours,
>and such drastic action probably only needs to be taken when the
>circumstances are dire. So, for "freebsd the server", it seems
>unnecessary when the entire disk can fit on one or two tapes, or in
>the autoloader. 

Think about it.

With a VPS/LVM/LSM (call it what you want) system, you can have
1) Resizable partitions
2) Partitions that span multiple disks.
3) Infrastructure that can be easily extended to do:
   a) Mirroring
   b) Striping
   c) Media perfection
   d) Cloning (a form of mirroring)
 
When I say "Cloning", I'm referring to the ability to snapshot a partition.
Another filesystem will then appear under a different mount point, and it
will be mounted Read-Only. Backups can then be done to the clone, instead
of the real, live filesystem. Imagine doing backups at high noon, without
irritating any users -- or without having to stop your work on your desk
machine. 

Imagine being able to have spare drives hooked up to a machine, and then when
a user partition fills up you can just tack on more space -- no interuption
in service. Or perhaps that mathematical program chewed up more space than
you had anticipated, so you "grew" the filesystem onto another disk. 

The uses are infinite. 

>Such a package may be useful for the guy who is using "freebsd
>the workstation", and he parts his disk such that he has a 300-meg
>root, 50-meg var, and 2k user... Yeah, I think that this would
>be good functionality.

Well, yes. 

>It might be a good idea to stray the source tree into a genuine
>server and workstation install, with the server version containing
>more of the stuff in source and with many more customizable options,
>self-compiling to handle certain variances when installed, and the
>workstation arriving in an easily installable binary format,
>with a separate cd of the source snapshot. Workstation users

I think the eventual goal is to have as much in LKMs as possible, or perhaps
some other system where unneeded/unwanted features don't consume memory.

I think it's difficult to say that one feature is a "workstation" feature,
and another is a "server" feature. In this particular case I don't think
that the distinction can be made. 

Anyway, if you are really interested in this I suggest the VPS mailing list.
It's been pretty beaten to death on this list. 
--
XCOMM Kevin P. Neal, Junior, Comp. Sci.     -   House of Retrocomputing
XCOMM  mailto:kpneal@pobox.com              -   http://www.pobox.com/~kpn/
XCOMM  kpneal@eos.ncsu.edu              Spoken by Keir Finlow-Bates:
XCOMM "Good grief, I've just noticed I've typed in a rant. Sorry chaps!"


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 06:32:17 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:32:06 -0500
From: Dan Nelson <dnelson@emsphone.com>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: IDE probe slowness; Was: Re: if_de.c ????
References: <19970513000817.01299@hydrogen.nike.efn.org> <199705130422.NAA13937@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <E0wR9Ck-0004vC-00@rover.village.org> <E0wRBoE-0005A1-00@rover.village.org>
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In the last episode (May 13), Warner Losh said:
> 
> Yup.  However, 90% of the time to get to that point is probing device
> and timeouts on my machine (2 scsi busses and 2 IDE controllers).  I
> haven't commented some of them out yet.
> 
> Warner

Not to get too off-topic, but if you're tired of the long delays in the
IDE probe, a quick fix is to adjust the TIMEOUT define at the top of
/sys/i386/isa/wd.c .  It is 10000 by default, but I'm using 2000 on a
couple of machines without problems.  My IDE bus has one ATAPI disk,
and during the probe, wdwait() waits for the entire timeout period 3
times (which I think comes to 30 secods). With TIMEOUT at 2000, I only
wait 6 seconds.

I haven't looked at any IDE specs, but I'm sure the delay is this high
to accomodate older IDE disks.

The SCSI wait is easier to change; options SCSI_DELAY in the kernel
config file.  I use SCSI_DELAY=1 with no ill effects.

	-Dan Nelson
	dnelson@emsphone.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 06:50:11 1997
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This belong in the -questions list.  Besides, I believe the answer is
in the handbook - if not, find a suitable place to insert it based
the information I give you below, and send me a diff :-)

> I'm upgrading my FreeBSD server to a Compaq presario 64 megs ram (2.2.1
> release).  When it boots i get
>  
> 639/15360 of memory  
> 
> Why can FreeBSD see all the ram installed...?

Because Compaq and Dell use a custom BIOS interrupt to get memory
above 16 MB, and write max 16MB to the Real Time Clock memory, which
is where FreeBSD get memory size.  You'll have to override the default
memory size, preferably by compiling a new kernel.  This will make
FreeBSD probe for RAM up to the amount you say you have.  (This mean
that you can usually specify that you have e.g. 256MB, and it will
probe and find how much there really is.  The reason this isn't the
default is that it doesn't work with all motherboards.)

> btw, Windows95 can see all the ram, so it seems to be properly installed.
> 
> Anyone ever tried to install FreeBSD on a Compaq...and had it working
> properly?

Yes.  Works like a charm.  (This is written on an xterm into a Compaq
Prosignia 500 running FreeBSD.)

Eivind.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 07:02:58 1997
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Michael Smith writes:
 > Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying:
 > > Thats a different story and we should upgrade our tcl . A few interesting
 > > things are happening at Sun -- webtk , a tk based web server, etc...
 > 
 > I think that Tcl 8.0 is in the same state as Perl 5 - waiting for the
 > final release.  I can't see any serious value in going to 7.6 given that
 > it would be outdated so quickly.
 > 
 > > 	Amancio
 > 

I'd like to stick my $.02 in here.

On all of our machines, I explicitly remove the tcl stuff from the system
makefiles and roll my own, for several reasons.

First, all tcl libraries and support files are then in the same place under
FreeBSD as under ESIX and Solaris (which I also have to support for a
little while longer).

Second, it's a lot easier to install some of the add-on packages (expect,
for example).

Third, I actually need tcl 7.6 and tk 4.2; well, actually, I just need tcl
7.6 so I can use tk 4.2.  I need the grid geometry manager, and it wasn't
useable (for me, anyhow) under tk4.1.

It's definitely premature to think about adding tcl 8.  It's still in
alpha, and still missing some features.  IIRC, the next alpha/beta is
supposed to be out this month, and will include support for namespaces and
binary i/o.

Just a comment from a (very pleased) supporter of FreeBSD...
--
Richard Kuhns			rjk@grauel.com
PO Box 6249			Tel: (765)477-6000 \
100 Sawmill Road				    x319
Lafayette, IN  47903		     (800)489-4891 /

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 07:26:27 1997
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From: The Devil Himself <fullermd@narcissus.ml.org>
To: Simon Shapiro <Shimon@i-Connect.Net>
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Subject: Re: URGENT:  Printing an X11 screen.  How?
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Simon Shapiro wrote:

> Once upon a time there used to be an wwd-xwud-xpr and somethingtopbm that
> could print an X window or a portion thereof.
> 
> Now all I see is xwd and xwud, whose man page refers to xpr which is
> nowhere to be seen.  xtopbm from pbmnet only deals with bitmaps.
> 
> I need, urgently to dump to a printer a number of X11 screens.  How?
Well, the way I do it is:
a) open another window.
b) run vi (or your editor of choice)
c) do the cut 'n' paste thingy (highlight, paste into editor w/ middle
mouse button)
d) save the file to something.
e) lpr -h (file)

Prob won't work too well for graphics, but for text, it works great.
If you have multiple screenfulls to print, just pipe the initial output to
more (or less), and paste it over a screen at a time.

> 
> Simon

Hope it helps!!

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
|FreeBSD is good.      FreeBSD is our friend.     UNIX is our god.|
*Micro$oft is bad.                      Micro$oft causes problems.*
|MicroBSD???      I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!|
|"I hate quotes in signature files"            :-}  MAtthew Fuller|
*fullermd@narcissus.ml.org                          FreeBSD junkie*
|http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd     Westminster College|
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 07:42:47 1997
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From: "Brian N. Handy" <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: "Justin T. Gibbs" <gibbs@plutotech.com>
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>>lambic:~ [12]->newfs -b 8192 -f 1024 /dev/ccd0c /a
>>
>
>I haven't tried to verify it yet, but my guess is that newfs'ing the
>block device causes some kind of buffer deadlock if the partition is
>large enough.  Can you newfs the raw partition?

Yep, that did the trick.  (ncr scsi fwiw.)  I was just bitten by the
@%^#$! man page.  I found this somewhere in the email archives (or maybe
Satoshi's CCD page, I don't remember now)...I feel like I've just learned
the secret handshake!

The man page for newfs is lame, IMHO.  There should be an example of newfs
on that page that works.  If I knew what was a correct usage of newfs, I'd
write one...


Sigh.

Brian


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 08:08:50 1997
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unsubscribe


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 08:20:30 1997
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Subject: bsd.lib.mk
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FreeBSD:

I have been looking at the bsd.lib.mk template and I am curious why the
compilation rules contain a CC command and a LD command.  For example,
the .c.o rule is as follows:

.c.o:
	${CC} ${CFLAGS} -c ${.IMPSRC} -o ${.TARGET}
	@${LD} -O ${.TARGET} -x -r ${.TARGET}


The man page for ld(1) says...

    -r      Produce relocatable object file, suitable for another pass
            through ld.
    -x      Discard all local symbols in the input files.  

Is there a benefit to the ld -x option?


Thanks in advance for any input.

------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Fenno                    email: James.Fenno@LodgeNet.com
LodgeNet Entertainment       AT&T:  605.373.1621
808 West Avenue North        Free:  800.257.2345
Sioux Falls, SD 57104        Fax:   605.330.1491
------------------------------------------------------------

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 08:29:26 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 08:25:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kevin Eliuk <cagey@kevin.sunshine.net>
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I am not running a network server only as a home machine so the
effects of my problem are only my problem. But I would like to see if
I can eliminate the problem by making some changes in the driver.

I am getting these errors regularly, I know for sure when /etc/daily
and /etc/weekly run. 

swap_pager: indefinite wait buffer: device: 196609, blkno: 4480, size: 8192

Usually this is followed by a soft read error but this morning was
followed by a hard read error when I ran `quot /dev/rwd0s2g'

In a reply this morning there was a reference to /sys/i386/isa/wd.c
which prompts me to ask this question. I accept that the strong
possibility exists that I am beating a dying horse :(
			     _______________________________________ 
			    |\	       			           /|
   			    |  \    kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net     /  |
   My manhood shouldn't be  |    \	     Kevin G. Eliuk    /    |
   measured by  the length  |    /^\_________________________/^\    |
   of my run on sentences.  |  /    		                 \  |
			    |/--===### Powered By FreeBSD 2.2.1    \|
			    |	      www.freebsd.org 	            |
	  		     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 08:38:22 1997
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Louis-Philippe Reid wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm upgrading my FreeBSD server to a Compaq presario 64 megs ram (2.2.1
> release).  When it boots i get
> 
> 639/15360 of memory
> 
> Why can FreeBSD see all the ram installed...?
> 

It was in hackers, try search the FreeBSD mail archives.

(options MAXMEM=what_you_want, in kernel, if I remember) 

> btw, Windows95 can see all the ram, so it seems to be properly installed.
> 
> Anyone ever tried to install FreeBSD on a Compaq...and had it working
> properly?
> 

Some versions og Comaq have setup on HDD.

> Thanks,
> 
> ---
> Louis-Philippe Reid
> Service Internet - Vidéotron Ltée

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 08:59:05 1997
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From: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
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Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:07:02 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705131042.UAA16674@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "May 13, 97 08:12:05 pm"
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According to Michael Smith:
> Mikael Karpberg stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > Really... IMHO that would kinda suck (both of the above).
> > Although, with a small modification, it would be really nice.
> 
> "what is possible sucks, but my impossible fantasy would be just wonderful".
Actually:
"Those two ideas suck, but my impossible fantasy would be just wonderful". :)
That is, don't make it stick after booting. (bad idea number one)
Also, don't make it come back as a screen saver. (bad idea number two)
Reason: It should be something to have there while booting, like a nice
"Please wait while I boot thing thing" text. After you've booted, it wont fit.
A screensaver (as a suggested later in my mail) should use a picture of its
own (which COULD be the same, if you had a fitting boot picture).
Making it dissapear after botting is done, and then never come back is not
impossible at all.

> > How about this:
> > 
> > The splash screen should use an image ("/splash.pic" ?) that used the exact
> > logo.sys format. That would make it easy to use finished slashes out there,
> 
> We have already noted that the "finished" splash image is a 320x400 
> bmp file, as currently (partially) supported.

Umm... Is this a "no, silly. we allready use another format" or not?
I have no idea what format the logo.sys uses. But if we want to get color
cycling in, etc, anyway... Is there a problem with using their format?
What, in that case?

> > without having to use some converter. It should be easy to read and put in
> > memory in any format you like it, no? That would make things like
> > "ln -s /dos/logo.sys /splash.pic" work too.
> 
> Symlinks are right out.  The file will have to be present, in place, 
> in the root filesystem, in order to be read by the bootloader.

Ack! Right. Oh well... was a nice thought. :-)

> > Color cycling should happen at an even pace, if possible. I'm not sure if
> 
> It's already been explained that it can't.

Umm... No. It was said that there was a timer interupt, but that it was not
available during probing, and so you (ie "syscons") would have to wait for
driver output and possibly do something at the same time as you output that.
So every time you get a call from a driver, you should be able to cycle the
colors. What you will want to do, however, is not cycle too often. So you
save the value of the hardware clock, or something, each time you cycle.
Then when you get a call from a driver (or an interput, when those are
on), you check if the splashscreen is up, and if so, check if at least X
milliseconds past since that timestamp. If so, you get a new timestamp,
cycle the colors, and continue with what you were suposed to. If not, you
just do what you were suposed to. That way it wont cycle super fast when the
boot scrolls pretty quickly. And the cycle can be made pretty slow so that
"hangs" (times some driver prints nothing, while waiting for devices to
answer, or so) isn't noticed as much. That way you get a fairly even cycling.
Am I correct?

  /Mikael

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 09:18:15 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:18:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Timmons <skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu>
To: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
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3COM will provide data sheets for their products that are reasonably
useful to developers - without requiring a head stand or other unpleasant
gyrations (save those for getting next week's version of the etherlink III
going :)

IMHO 3COM is a FreeBSD-friendly company.

-Chris



On Tue, 13 May 1997, Michael Hancock wrote:

> On Tue, 13 May 1997, Michael Smith wrote:
> 
> > > I didn't know SMC was having problems.  I think 3COM and Intel pushing for
> > > integrated ethernet on the motherboard is more of threat to SMC than the
> > > clone makers.
> > 
> > *laugh*  First thing I'd do with a motherboard with a 3com chip on it is
> > put a decent ethernet card in it 8)
> 
> I used to think the same way, but the recent 3COM stuff seems to be pretty
> good.
> 
> Mike
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 09:21:40 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:18:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: The Devil Himself <fullermd@narcissus.ml.org>
To: Ruslan Shevchenko <rssh@cki.ipri.kiev.ua>
cc: Louis-Philippe Reid <lpreid@videotron.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
        freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 
In-Reply-To: <3378602A.55E3@cki.ipri.kiev.ua>
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On Tue, 13 May 1997, Ruslan Shevchenko wrote:

> Louis-Philippe Reid wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I'm upgrading my FreeBSD server to a Compaq presario 64 megs ram (2.2.1
> > release).  When it boots i get
> > 
> > 639/15360 of memory
> > 
> > Why can FreeBSD see all the ram installed...?
> > 
> 
> It was in hackers, try search the FreeBSD mail archives.
> 
> (options MAXMEM=what_you_want, in kernel, if I remember) 
> 
> > btw, Windows95 can see all the ram, so it seems to be properly installed.
> > 
> > Anyone ever tried to install FreeBSD on a Compaq...and had it working
> > properly?
> > 
> 
> Some versions og Comaq have setup on HDD.
Mine does.
I had FreeBSD on it, and it worked fine.
A note though; because the setup is on the HDD, it showed up as F3 on the
bootmanager, and I could no longer go into it using F10, like before.
But it still worked just fine.

> 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > ---
> > Louis-Philippe Reid
> > Service Internet - Vidéotron Ltée
> 

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
|FreeBSD is good.      FreeBSD is our friend.     UNIX is our god.|
*Micro$oft is bad.                      Micro$oft causes problems.*
|MicroBSD???      I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!|
|"I hate quotes in signature files"            :-}  MAtthew Fuller|
*fullermd@narcissus.ml.org                          FreeBSD junkie*
|http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd     Westminster College|
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 10:08:38 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705131700.KAA10167@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: PATCHES: NFS server locking support
To: davem@caip.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:00:42 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
        current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705130106.VAA21008@darkwing.rutgers.edu> from "David S. Miller" at May 12, 97 09:06:27 pm
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>    If you can guaranteee that you can hash the handle values in user
>    space because the handle values are not unique in the conversion
>    part between client systems, then you're all set... and it's not a
>    problem.  F_CNVT will only be called once per hash miss in that
>    case.
> 
> Why not put lockd into the kernel as a kernel thread and avoid all of
> this overhead?  That's what we do and it works extremely well...

Because FreeBSD does not have kernel threading, a FreeBSD kernel
thread is nothing more than a process that enters/starts-in kernel
space, and never leaves?

BTW: "We"?  Who has an NFS lockd?


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 10:21:17 1997
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199705131721.KAA15767@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: partitions and things that go bump in the night
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:21:13 -0700 (MST)
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Greetings!
     Once again, I'm screwing around with reorganizing my systems.
Effectively, I have a single 340M IDE drive (internal) and 0 - 4
4G SCSI drives *external*.  I'd like to set up a "basic" system
on the IDE drive on each machine and, depending on which of
the external drives are present, build upon that.  Having a nice
"robust" fallback on the IDE is also comforting if/when some gremlin
attacks the SCSI-based filesystems.
     Of course, it would also be nice if the IDE based system was
more than a "token" system (i.e. was *useful*!)

     So, my first thinking on partitions is a small /, a small /var
and the bulk of the drive dedicated to a /usr.  Hopefully, having
a separate /var will limit the extent to which it can grow
(log files, crash dumps, etc.) and impinge upon the rest of the system.
The tiny / is intended as the "last chance" fallback -- hopefully
it is static enough that it would survive any gremlins that might
creep in and, perhaps, allow me to repair any of the other
file systems which might be damaged.
     Now, one machine likes to serve up news; likewise for mail.
Presumably, I could just mount a larger SCSI based /var filesystem
ON TOP OF the existing IDE /var directory.  (Yes, I know I could
mount at /var/mail instead, etc. and leave the balance of /var
on the IDE drive).  I *think* this is preferable to a symlink from
/var to, for example /SCSI/xyz (assuming /SCSI/xyz is somewhere on the
SCSI drives).  A symlink will choke when something tries to access
/var/mail, /var/log, etc. and the drive is not mounted.
     I've previously done this with /usr residing on the SCSI drives
but get annoyed at the fact that /usr/bin, /usr/sbin are not available
when I dismount the SCSI devices.  Mounting just /usr/local on the
SCSI drives doesn't help accomodate other things added to /usr.
So, I think overlaying /usr *completely* with the external device
is also a win.

     Now, have I set myself up for any "gotchas" down the road?
In particular, are there any files which might be opened in the
*normal* boot sequence in the IDE /var or /usr hierarchies
*before* the /var and /usr SCSI mounts occur?  How could/would
that affect me (i.e. when the opened file is suddenly obscured)?
Aside from "wasting" the overlaid parts of the IDE drive, are there
any other drawbacks to this type of approach??
     Thanks!
--don

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 10:30:17 1997
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Message-ID: <33789E4E.490E@bigfoot.com>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:01:02 -0400
From: Jerry Hicks <jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com>
Reply-To: jerry_hicks@bigfoot.com
Organization: GoWorld Communications, Inc.
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To: Deke Swallen <deke@efn.org>
CC: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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Deke Swallen wrote:
> 
> You need to send a mesage to majordomo@FreeBSD.ORG
> with no subject.
> And in the body of the message type this:
> unsubscribe freebsd-hackers

Yeah I know better too... (Up all night again ;)

Sorry

Jerry.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 10:44:29 1997
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From: Paul Saab <spaul@more.net>
Message-Id: <199705131744.MAA03187@yogurt.apg.more.net>
Subject: HP NetServer 5/100 LS2 
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:44:06 -0500 (CDT)
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Hello,

I have a HP NetServer 5/100 LS2 which is running BSDi that I want
to convert to FreeBSD.  I read the FAQ about the netserver and did
what it said and the boot disk still does not detect the SCSI
controllers.  Has anyone tried installing FreeBSD on a machine like
this?  Thanks.
Below is the bootup messages from BSDi if that helps any.

Paul Saab
spaul@more.net

---
BSDI BSD/OS 2.1 Kernel #0: Thu Mar 13 20:56:01 CST 1997
    paul@spider.arach-net.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/GENERIC
cpu = Pentium (about 100 MHz) model 2, stepping 5
delay multiplier 2548
real mem = 67108864
avail mem = 64434176
buffer cache = 6545408
isa0 (root)
eisa0 at root
pci0 at root: configuration mechanism 1
pccons0 at isa0 iobase 0x60 irq 1: color, 8 screens
pcaux0 at isa0 iobase 0x60 irq 12
com0 at isa0 iobase 0x3f8 irq 4: buffered (16550AF)
com1 at isa0 iobase 0x2f8 irq 3: buffered (16550AF)
lp0 at isa0 iobase 0x378 irq 7
fdc0 at isa0 iobase 0x3f0 irq 6 drq 2: floppy controller
fd0 at fdc0 slave 0: 1.44M HD 3.5 floppy
npx0 at isa0 iobase 0xf0: math coprocessor
vga0 at isa0 iobase 0x3c0 maddr 0xa0000-0xaffff: VGA graphics
aic0 at pci0 irq 11 maddr 0xff9ff000-0xff9ff0ff
aic0: initiator id 7, parity enabled
aic0: delaying to permit certain devices to finish self-test
tg0 at aic0 target 1
sd0 at tg0 unit 0: disk: HP 2.13 GB 1st ### rev 1221 (SCSI-2) 4165272*512
tg0: disconnect enabled, synchronous at 10.0MB/s, max offset 8
tg1 at aic0 target 5
sr0 at tg1 unit 0: CD-ROM: TOSHIBA CD-ROM XM-5301TA rev 1895 (SCSI-2) removable
tg1: disconnect enabled, synchronous at 4.4MB/s, max offset 8
aic1 at pci0 irq 9 maddr 0xff9fe000-0xff9fe0ff
aic1: initiator id 7, parity enabled
aic1: delaying to permit certain devices to finish self-test
ne0 at isa0 iobase 0x340 irq 5: NE-2000, address 00:40:05:14:89:19
pe0 at isa0/lp0: Pocket Ethernet-2
xir0 at isa0/lp0: Pocket Ethernet-3
changing root device to sd0a

----- End of forwarded message from spaul -----


Paul Saab
spaul@more.net

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 11:07:18 1997
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Message-Id: <3378C8A8.2A54@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:01:44 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
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Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> pointed me out to:
> http://opera.inrialpes.fr/thot/
> ....
> 
> If thot should prove to be  useful and stable we can adopt it .
> Hey, if the code bloat bothers you it is well worth it to have a
> separate CDROM with tot and amaya, a web editor / browser.
> We can also include other OO packages such as ACE, ILU and a couple of
> CORBA ORBs 8)
> 
It's not that much, besides thot's libraries are shared by Amaya. WC may
also be happy, some people prefer Linux because "it comes with more CDs"
:-).

Pedro.


>         Enjoy,
>         Amancio
> 
> 
> 
>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 11:18:51 1997
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From: Mark Holden <markh@HEMPAC.Net>
Message-Id: <199705131817.NAA08020@Blinky.HEMPAC.Net>
Subject: Re: HP NetServer 5/100 LS2
To: spaul@more.net (Paul Saab)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:17:59 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705131744.MAA03187@yogurt.apg.more.net> from "Paul Saab" at May 13, 97 12:44:06 pm
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>I have a HP NetServer 5/100 LS2 which is running BSDi that I want
>to convert to FreeBSD.  I read the FAQ about the netserver and did
>what it said and the boot disk still does not detect the SCSI
>controllers.  Has anyone tried installing FreeBSD on a machine like
>this?  Thanks.
>Below is the bootup messages from BSDi if that helps any.


I tried to install 2.2.1 (you didn't say which version you were trying to 
install?) on a HP NetServer LD Pro overthe weekend.  2.2.1 detected both
of the aic7880 channels in the server just fine.  I think the LS used the 7770
chipset, correct?  I've used 7770 chipsets (not in HPs) with FreeBSD before,
and they were OK, so if you haven't tried 2.2.1 yet, I'd try that.

On the down side, my disks are on an AMI MegaRAID (also known as an HP
NetRAID), and that isn't recognized :)

-Mark Holden
markh@hempac.net

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 11:23:32 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:21:20 -0400
From: Randall Hopper <rhh@ct.picker.com>
To: Justen Stepka <raistlin@chaos.winternet.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, multimedia@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Video input device
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Justen Stepka:
 |This is to anyone that has experience working with video input devices for
 |2.1.6+. I currently have the USRobitics camra that uses a PCI video media
 |card. I've read the 'meteor' man page and have compiled the kernel with
 |all the options needed, but I'm having troubles finding software that will
 |work with this device. NV needs a port called 'tk' which is out of date
 |and the plain port 'tcl' which is also out of date. Another program that
 |I've tried is MMCC which can't run; The FAQ talks about this but the
 |information in there is incorrect.
 |
 |Is there anything that I'm missing or imformation that could be shared to
 |point me into the correct direction.

(Cross-posting this to the multimedia list since most folks that can help
you monitor there).

Can someone with a meteor offer some advice?

Randall

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 11:32:15 1997
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From: Paul Saab <spaul@more.net>
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Subject: Re: HP NetServer 5/100 LS2
In-Reply-To: <199705131817.NAA08020@Blinky.HEMPAC.Net> from Mark Holden at "May 13, 97 01:17:59 pm"
To: markh@HEMPAC.Net (Mark Holden)
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> >I have a HP NetServer 5/100 LS2 which is running BSDi that I want
> >to convert to FreeBSD.  I read the FAQ about the netserver and did
> >what it said and the boot disk still does not detect the SCSI
> >controllers.  Has anyone tried installing FreeBSD on a machine like
> >this?  Thanks.
> >Below is the bootup messages from BSDi if that helps any.
> 
> 
> I tried to install 2.2.1 (you didn't say which version you were trying to 
> install?) on a HP NetServer LD Pro overthe weekend.  2.2.1 detected both
> of the aic7880 channels in the server just fine.  I think the LS used the 7770
> chipset, correct?  I've used 7770 chipsets (not in HPs) with FreeBSD before,
> and they were OK, so if you haven't tried 2.2.1 yet, I'd try that.

Opps.  I tried both 2.2.1 and 3.0.  Both failed to recognise any
of the PCI devices.  The disk controller is the aic7870.  Sorry
for not being more specific.

The FAQ seemed to point the finger at the EISA bus being the culprit to
my problems????

Paul Saab
spaul@more.net

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 11:55:11 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:54:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: Wm Brian McCane <root@bmccane.uit.net>
To: Simon Shapiro <Shimon@i-Connect.Net>
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: URGENT: Printing an X11 screen. How?
In-Reply-To: <XFMail.970513000217.Shimon@i-Connect.Net>
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Simon Shapiro wrote:

> Once upon a time there used to be an wwd-xwud-xpr and somethingtopbm that
> could print an X window or a portion thereof.
> 
> Now all I see is xwd and xwud, whose man page refers to xpr which is
> nowhere to be seen.  xtopbm from pbmnet only deals with bitmaps.
> 
> I need, urgently to dump to a printer a number of X11 screens.  How?
> 
> Simon
> 
> d-xpr and somethingtopbm that
> could print an X window or a portion thereof.
> 
> Now all I see is xwd and xwud, whose man page refers to xpr which is
> nowhere to be seen.  xtopbm from pbmnet only deals with bitmaps.
> 
> I need, urgentl
> 

I use the following script.  I tie it to buttons in the title bar, and to
my window menus.  You must have the window fully exposed or it prints 
whatever is overlapping it.  All you need do, is run the command, wait 
for the beep, and then click the window to print.  The program requires 
a postscript printer, or ghostscript but of course EVERYONE has one of 
those right 8).

#! /bin/sh
PATH=/usr/local/xbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/X386/bin:/usr/gnu/bin:$PATH
xwd $* |
xwdtopnm |
pnmgamma 1.5 2 2.25 |
pnmdepth 255 |
pnmtops -rle |
lpr -Pcdjps

	brian

+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
He rides a cycle of mighty days, and   \  Wm Brian and Lori McCane
he represents the last great schizm     \  McCane Consulting
among the gods. Evil though he obviously \  root@bmccane.uit.net
is, he is a mighty figure, this father of \  http://bmccane.uit.net/
my spirit, and I respect him as the sons   \  http://bmccane.uit.net/~pictures/
of old did the fathers of their bodies.     \  http://bmccane.uit.net/~bmccane/
    Roger Zelazny - "Lord of Light"          \  http://bmccane.uit.net/~bbs/
+---------------------------------------------+--------------------------------+



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 12:11:35 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705131903.MAA10538@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:03:47 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705130206.LAA12359@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from "Michael Smith" at May 13, 97 11:36:00 am
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> > The rotation in Win95 is caused by the loading of the systray.exe dll
> > by the explorer, actually, so it would not be inconsistent to call
> > the rotate function from the boot stage probe iteration code.
> 
> I don't honestly think that the probe code has any business doing that,
> unless we're trying to add a periodic-update hook to the whole boot
> process.  
> 
> Right now, the splash go-away poll happens during console text output,
> which is IMHO about the most sensible place to put it.  I was planning on
> doing one rotation for every ~10 characters output, or perhaps one per
> newline.

Heh.  Do whichever makes the output co slightly faster than the output
under Windows 95 when the same bitmap is used there.  8-).

	"It's not actualy speed the users are itnterested in,
	 it's the *appearance* of speed.  A program which comes
	 up in 10 seconds and paints part of the screen every
	 2 seconds is considered 'slow'.  A program which comes
	 up in 16 seconds and then page-flips to draw the screen
	 is considered 'fast'"


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 12:22:48 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705131916.MAA10627@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: bsd.lib.mk
To: James.Fenno@lodgenet.com
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:16:50 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705131519.KAA10896@bruno.lodgenet.com> from "Jim Fenno" at May 13, 97 10:19:55 am
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> I have been looking at the bsd.lib.mk template and I am curious why the
> compilation rules contain a CC command and a LD command.  For example,
> the .c.o rule is as follows:
> 
> .c.o:
> 	${CC} ${CFLAGS} -c ${.IMPSRC} -o ${.TARGET}
> 	@${LD} -O ${.TARGET} -x -r ${.TARGET}
> 
> 
> The man page for ld(1) says...
> 
>     -r      Produce relocatable object file, suitable for another pass
>             through ld.
>     -x      Discard all local symbols in the input files.  
> 
> Is there a benefit to the ld -x option?

Yeah; it makes you have to update all your /usr/share/mk files and
your 'ld' program, and "conveniently" suplicates functionality
already present in "strip".

Plus it makes you recompile 'ld' to use the stupid option that
does the tmp file juggling.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 12:26:21 1997
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Message-Id: <199705131918.MAA10641@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
To: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:18:59 -0700 (MST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> "Those two ideas suck, but my impossible fantasy would be just wonderful". :)
> That is, don't make it stick after booting. (bad idea number one)
> Also, don't make it come back as a screen saver. (bad idea number two)
> Reason: It should be something to have there while booting, like a nice
> "Please wait while I boot thing thing" text. After you've booted, it wont fit.
> A screensaver (as a suggested later in my mail) should use a picture of its
> own (which COULD be the same, if you had a fitting boot picture).
> Making it dissapear after botting is done, and then never come back is not
> impossible at all.

Actually, if the intent is to make the machine "look pretty", then
covering up the boot crap is only half the battle.  The other half
is a graphical login.

Barring a graphical login, you're back to being ugly again when the
login pops up.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 13:17:22 1997
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 May 1997 12:03:47 PDT."
             <199705131903.MAA10538@phaeton.artisoft.com> 
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>	"It's not actualy speed the users are itnterested in,
>	 it's the *appearance* of speed.  A program which comes
>	 up in 10 seconds and paints part of the screen every
>	 2 seconds is considered 'slow'.  A program which comes
>	 up in 16 seconds and then page-flips to draw the screen
>	 is considered 'fast'"

No.  A program that takes 15 seconds to first paint the screen is
considered slower than a program that takes 1 second to put up a
"splash screen" and an additional 20 seconds to bring the rest
of the app up.

--
Justin T. Gibbs
===========================================
  FreeBSD: Turning PCs into workstations
===========================================



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 13:17:53 1997
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Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
In-Reply-To: <199705131918.MAA10641@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "May 13, 97 12:18:59 pm"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:11:40 +0200 (MEST)
Cc: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
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In reply to Terry Lambert who wrote:
> >"Those two ideas suck, but my impossible fantasy would be just wonderful". :)
> > That is, don't make it stick after booting. (bad idea number one)
> > Also, don't make it come back as a screen saver. (bad idea number two)
> > Reason: It should be something to have there while booting, like a nice
> > "Please wait while I boot thing thing" text. After you've booted, it wont fit.
> > A screensaver (as a suggested later in my mail) should use a picture of its
> > own (which COULD be the same, if you had a fitting boot picture).
> > Making it dissapear after botting is done, and then never come back is not
> > impossible at all.
> 
> Actually, if the intent is to make the machine "look pretty", then
> covering up the boot crap is only half the battle.  The other half
> is a graphical login.

AHH!!, now I can add my bitmap console code then ??
(and no sorry, no ddx this time either)
>
> Barring a graphical login, you're back to being ugly again when the
> login pops up.

Nothing, except maybe kernel space, is barring a graphical login....

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt               (sos@FreeBSD.org)               FreeBSD Core Team
                Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 13:22:34 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Curt Sampson <cjs@portal.ca>
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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On Thu, 8 May 1997, Warner Losh wrote:

> Yes.  Is it worth it?  I can't answer.  However, the new Alpha port
> will use whatever the current tools produce in a relatively bug-free
> way.  I'd personally like this to be ELF, but could see it being ECOFF
> if the ELF tools on the Alpha aren't up to snuff.

Currently the GNU tools targeted to the Alpha support ELF quite
well. Presumably the ECOFF support still works as well, but ECOFF
doesn't support shared libraries. NetBSD-current is using ELF on
the Alpha now.

I've set followups to freebsd-alpha@freebsd.org.

cjs

Curt Sampson    cjs@portal.ca		Info at http://www.portal.ca/
Internet Portal Services, Inc.		`And malt does more than Milton can
Vancouver, BC   (604) 257-9400		 To justify God's ways to man.' 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 13:23:27 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:22:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
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On Tue, 13 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> Amancio Hasty wrote:
> > 
> > "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> pointed me out to:
> > http://opera.inrialpes.fr/thot/
> > ....
> > 
> > If thot should prove to be  useful and stable we can adopt it .
> > Hey, if the code bloat bothers you it is well worth it to have a
> > separate CDROM with tot and amaya, a web editor / browser.
> > We can also include other OO packages such as ACE, ILU and a couple of
> > CORBA ORBs 8)
> > 
> It's not that much, besides thot's libraries are shared by Amaya. WC may
> also be happy, some people prefer Linux because "it comes with more CDs"
> :-).

I have 5 more classdays left (mostly finals and work on an English 
project) so I can't spend much time yet on thot.  It sure looks 
interesting, but the build system looks horrible.  If someone has already 
hacked it and has it building, a few words here would be nice.

I noticed it wants the libs.  I haven't checked it much yet, but it seems 
the libs are only in binary form.  I grabbed the Linux version of those.  
Any chance of building those under FreeBSD?

> 
> Pedro.
> 
> 
> >         Enjoy,
> >         Amancio
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
> 
> 

----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 13:42:01 1997
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Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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CC: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: g++ shared library segfaults
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Mikael Karpberg wrote:
> 
> For those that are interested, here's a nice link to some of the ANSI drafts:
> 
> http://www.cygnus.com/misc/wp/
> 
>   /Mikael

Bjarne Stroustrup's book says:

"Brief updates on the progress of C++ standarization will be available
via ftp ftp.std.com in the directory AW/stroustrup2e "

I think this is the best possible reference :-).

	Pedro.



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 13:42:13 1997
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Subject: Re: GNU is not tar
References: <Pine.NEB.3.94.970512180204.6097B-100000@misery.sdf.com> <3377F32D.10DB@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970513140357.63713@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> <33781510.52B9@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <19970513152753.59938@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au>
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David Dawes wrote:
> 
> >The real problem, anyway, is that pax should be used instead of "tar"
> >when building packages or preparing the distribution, to be more
> >standard comformant. I think the ports tree uses pax anyway.
> 
> I've seen problems with pax -- both the original version which I
> tried some years ago, and the version that comes with Digital Unix
> (and to which tar and cpio are linked).  I've been avoiding it ever
> since, and haven't tried the version included with FreeBSD.
> 
> David

FWIW, there is a commercial tar utility in http://www.cactus.com called
"Lone-Tar". Too western for me :-).



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 13:47:41 1997
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Subject: Re: PATCHES: NFS server locking support 
Cc: davem@caip.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller), Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk,
        hackers@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:46:35 -0600
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In message <199705131700.KAA10167@phaeton.artisoft.com> Terry Lambert writes:
: BTW: "We"?  Who has an NFS lockd?

David runs and develops Linux.  I presume that it he is claiming that
Linux has a lockd implementation that works in their kernel.  Since I
don't run Linux, I cannot answer one way or another on this.

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 13:56:59 1997
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Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
To: sos@sos.freebsd.dk (Søren Schmidt)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 13:47:09 -0700 (MST)
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> > Barring a graphical login, you're back to being ugly again when the
> > login pops up.
> 
> Nothing, except maybe kernel space, is barring a graphical login....

Ugh.  We need ELF so we can mark text pages not in the swap path a
being swappable.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 14:04:15 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 15:59:24 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>
CC: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
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Chuck Robey wrote:
> ...
The Amaya project reports someone already compiled this under FreeBSD.
> 
> I noticed it wants the libs.  I haven't checked it much yet, but it seems
> the libs are only in binary form.  I grabbed the Linux version of those.
> Any chance of building those under FreeBSD?
> 
Yes, one tarball is thot-src* (the libs), and another is thot-editor*
(the editor :-)). Actually both should be independent ports because
Amaya requires thot-src.
This page has the porting guidelines:
http://opera.inrialpes.fr/thot/doc/thoteditor/SourceDist.html


	--Pedro.
> >
> >
> > >         Enjoy,
> > >         Amancio
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data
> chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
> 9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
> Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
> (301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
> ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 14:26:40 1997
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Subject: Re: partitions and things that go bump in the night 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 May 1997 10:21:13 PDT."
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In message <199705131721.KAA15767@seagull.rtd.com>, Don Yuniskis writes:

...

>     I've previously done this with /usr residing on the SCSI drives
>but get annoyed at the fact that /usr/bin, /usr/sbin are not available
>when I dismount the SCSI devices.  Mounting just /usr/local on the
>SCSI drives doesn't help accomodate other things added to /usr.
>So, I think overlaying /usr *completely* with the external device
>is also a win.

Sounds like a good applicaiton for unionfs, thought I don't know if
it's currently functional in FreeBSD.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 14:57:31 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 17:50:56 -0400
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
From: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
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At 11:45 AM 5/13/97 +0930, Michael Smith wrote:
>dennis stands accused of saying:
>> >
>> >Uhh.  Dennis, pride doesn't pay the bills.  Pride doesn't buy hardware
>> >for you to support.
>> 
>> It this a line from Animal Farm?
>
>No.  Are you a redneck?

A computer programmer redneck from NY...yeah.... :-)

>
>> >Vendors answer the phone?  Hah!  You gotta be dreaming.  I've been
>> >hounding vendors for chip programming details for years, and the scene
>> >really hasn't changed a lot over time.  The "nice" people still make
>> >data free, the "nasty" ones still hoard it jealously.
>> 
>> Would be nice, wouldn't it?
>
>Indeed. 
>
>> Certain things you're just not gonna get...so deal with it. Do you
>> think that SMC is gonna build another card with DEC-like chip when
>> anyone with a $500. layout program can clone the board and steal
>> their market?
>
>I can't see why not.  They've been doing it for the last 15 years, I
>can't see them stopping now.  If they do, I can see a lot of people
>giving them the Diamond/Matrox/Microchannel shoulder.

Because they posted $1.40 loss per share last quarter, and haven't
had a profitable quarter in a year. Because their stock, which was 
trading at 28 at the start of '95, is now hovering around 8. Because
no matter what you think their economies of scale are, they cant
compete with Taiwanese labor costs, and cant turn a profit selling
against boards that sell for $35.


>(And if you actually _use_ a $500 layout suite, I feel _really_ sorry
> for you.  And I have less faith in your products 8)

We haven't built a single chip board yet....what I was saying that you 
*could* with the simplist of layout programs.

>
>> Its getting so easy to clone hardware, particularly
>> with single chip solutions, that you're going to see big vendors
>> refuse to use parts that have public specs...like you said, you
>> gotta pay the bills, and it doesnt pay to build hardware with
>> readily available hardware with public specs.
>
>There's no money in vanilla hardware, regardless of whether it uses
>publically-specified parts or not.   The money is in image and software.

Image? I've heard lots of ppl talk about the clone cards on this list, but
how 
many are buying new SMC cards (who have access or the clones?). Why 
would anyone pay SMCs
price for a card that is exactly the same as a clone...particularly when the
clones have a lifetime warranty? Some will, but most won't, and they are 
riding the "image" and "efforts" of companies like SMC that are losing money.

In 1987, Western Digital was selling 20,000 ethernet cards a month (a huge
number at the time) for $150. and losing money. The market is much bigger now,
but the margins are infinitesimal. 

db


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 15:00:34 1997
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At 10:47 AM 5/13/97 +0900, you wrote:
>On Mon, 12 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:
>
>> > >This presumes that somehow the "taiwanese clone manufacturers" can
>> > >ride on the backs of the marketing companies.  This is an unlikely
>> > >scenario -- each company must do it's own marketing.
>> > 
>> > What planet are you from? There are HUNDREDS of ne2000 clones that
>> > do zero marketing. Infotel and a hoard of other DEC chip clones rode
>> > SMC...now SMC is in having big problems.
>
>I didn't know SMC was having problems.  I think 3COM and Intel pushing for
>integrated ethernet on the motherboard is more of threat to SMC than the
>clone makers.

They haven't shown a quarterly profit in a year, and their stock is at a
five-year low. 
Pretty good indicators.....

Dennis



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 15:08:02 1997
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From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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Terry Lambert wrote:
> 
> Actually, if the intent is to make the machine "look pretty", then
> covering up the boot crap is only half the battle.  The other half
> is a graphical login.
> 
> Barring a graphical login, you're back to being ugly again when the
> login pops up.
>
Ugh !! Are you suggesting we should include xdm on the installation
floppy?

	Pedro.

 
>                                         Terry Lambert
>                                         terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 15:50:50 1997
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To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>
cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 May 1997 16:22:41 EDT."
             <Pine.BSF.3.91.970513162006.263P-100000@Journey2.mat.net> 
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Just follow the instructions which come with the editor thot 
For funky makefile ge just use the defines for linux.
You shouldn't have any problems at all in building it.

	Amancio

>From The Desk Of Chuck Robey :
> On Tue, 13 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
> 
> > Amancio Hasty wrote:
> > > 
> > > "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> pointed me out to:
> > > http://opera.inrialpes.fr/thot/
> > > ....
> > > 
> > > If thot should prove to be  useful and stable we can adopt it .
> > > Hey, if the code bloat bothers you it is well worth it to have a
> > > separate CDROM with tot and amaya, a web editor / browser.
> > > We can also include other OO packages such as ACE, ILU and a couple of
> > > CORBA ORBs 8)
> > > 
> > It's not that much, besides thot's libraries are shared by Amaya. WC may
> > also be happy, some people prefer Linux because "it comes with more CDs"
> > :-).
> 
> I have 5 more classdays left (mostly finals and work on an English 
> project) so I can't spend much time yet on thot.  It sure looks 
> interesting, but the build system looks horrible.  If someone has already 
> hacked it and has it building, a few words here would be nice.
> 
> I noticed it wants the libs.  I haven't checked it much yet, but it seems 
> the libs are only in binary form.  I grabbed the Linux version of those.  
> Any chance of building those under FreeBSD?
> 
> > 
> > Pedro.
> > 
> > 
> > >         Enjoy,
> > >         Amancio
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > >
> > 
> > 
> 
> ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
> chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
> 9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
> Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
> (301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
> ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 15:52:47 1997
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: terry@lambert.org
CC: terry@lambert.org, Andrew.Gordon@net-tel.co.uk, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG,
        current@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <199705131700.KAA10167@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry
	Lambert on Tue, 13 May 1997 10:00:42 -0700 (MST))
Subject: Re: PATCHES: NFS server locking support
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   From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
   Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 10:00:42 -0700 (MST)

   > Why not put lockd into the kernel as a kernel thread and avoid all of
   > this overhead?  That's what we do and it works extremely well...

   Because FreeBSD does not have kernel threading, a FreeBSD kernel
   thread is nothing more than a process that enters/starts-in kernel
   space, and never leaves?

   BTW: "We"?  Who has an NFS lockd?

Linux.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 15:59:55 1997
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 May 1997 13:01:44 PDT."
             <3378C8A8.2A54@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> 
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Before even on deciding on a separate CDrom distribution , it is more
appropriate to decide whether thot is useful or not. On the surface
it looks really good , I just have to use thot more extensively  over
here to determine is goodness.


	Cheers,
	Amancio


>From The Desk Of "Pedro F. Giffuni" :
> Amancio Hasty wrote:
> > 
> > "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> pointed me out to:
> > http://opera.inrialpes.fr/thot/
> > ....
> > 
> > If thot should prove to be  useful and stable we can adopt it .
> > Hey, if the code bloat bothers you it is well worth it to have a
> > separate CDROM with tot and amaya, a web editor / browser.
> > We can also include other OO packages such as ACE, ILU and a couple of
> > CORBA ORBs 8)
> > 
> It's not that much, besides thot's libraries are shared by Amaya. WC may
> also be happy, some people prefer Linux because "it comes with more CDs"
> :-).
> 
> Pedro.
> 
> 
> >         Enjoy,
> >         Amancio
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 16:01:25 1997
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg),
        msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 May 1997 12:18:59 PDT."
             <199705131918.MAA10641@phaeton.artisoft.com> 
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>From The Desk Of Terry Lambert :
> Barring a graphical login, you're back to being ugly again when the
> login pops up.

Logins are pretty with X and if you add sound with something like 
NCD's network audio it can not only look good but also sound good.
If you are really an artist, throw in a cool animation. Heck 
go all the way and play mpeg movies which will prevent you from login
in because you are too interested in the movie 8)

	Amancio




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 16:23:34 1997
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Cc: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>,
        Brandon Gillespie <brandon@cold.org>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Alpha questions.. 
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On Tue, 13 May 1997 13:21:32 -0700 (PDT) 
 Curt Sampson <cjs@portal.ca> wrote:

 > Currently the GNU tools targeted to the Alpha support ELF quite
 > well. Presumably the ECOFF support still works as well, but ECOFF
 > doesn't support shared libraries. NetBSD-current is using ELF on
 > the Alpha now.

...ECOFF can support shared libraries (Digital UNIX (formerly DEC OSF/1))
uses ECOFF.  Elf is just much saner, in general.

Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 16:24:37 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705132317.QAA11304@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
To: dennis@etinc.com (dennis)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:17:29 -0700 (MST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970513175052.00ad7c24@etinc.com> from "dennis" at May 13, 97 05:50:56 pm
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> Because they posted $1.40 loss per share last quarter, and haven't
> had a profitable quarter in a year. Because their stock, which was 
> trading at 28 at the start of '95, is now hovering around 8. Because
> no matter what you think their economies of scale are, they cant
> compete with Taiwanese labor costs, and cant turn a profit selling
> against boards that sell for $35.


I still don't understand why SMC can't use Taiwanese labor so that
labor costs are no longer a valid discriminator for you, Dennis.

It costs the same for SMC to buy Taiwanese labor as any other company.
There is no global "sell Taiwanese labor to anyone but SMC" conspiracy.

Why can't they sell boards for $35 and make the same profit as the
clone vendors selling boards for $35?


Is it just that they are stupid?  Or is it that they don't want to
accept the profits available to them because the margin is "too low"
for them to be happy?  (ie: is it just that they are stupid, and in
severe denial to boot?  I know!  Let's "redefine the market"!).

If that's it, then in my opinion stupid companies deserve to go
under: stupidity *should* be penalized... how else can you disincent
it so that it doesn't happen again?  How will the human species ever
overcome stupidity if it's something we reward?  Do you understand
the principles of "pressured genetic drift" (tectogenetics)?
"Everybody!  Out of the gene pool!".


If that's not it, then it must be ignorance.  They need to be educated
on how market economies operate when there aren't protectionist nannies
availble to wipe their bottoms for them.  I suggest Demming; he did an
excellent job doing the same in Japan.  Then they can give up on the
appearance of stupidity caused by acting in ignorance, and maybe their
numbers will make you happier.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 16:32:06 1997
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To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: if_de.c ???? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 May 1997 17:50:56 EDT."
             <3.0.32.19970513175052.00ad7c24@etinc.com> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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>>I can't see why not.  They've been doing it for the last 15 years, I
>>can't see them stopping now.  If they do, I can see a lot of people
>>giving them the Diamond/Matrox/Microchannel shoulder.
>
>Because they posted $1.40 loss per share last quarter, and haven't
>had a profitable quarter in a year. Because their stock, which was 
>trading at 28 at the start of '95, is now hovering around 8. Because
>no matter what you think their economies of scale are, they cant
>compete with Taiwanese labor costs, and cant turn a profit selling
>against boards that sell for $35.

   They've always sold cards with NICs with publically available specs, so
nothing that has occurred in the last year has anything to do with this.
As I'm sure you know, just about all networking stocks are way down at the
moment, not just SMC and 3Com, but Cisco, Bay Networks, and everyone else
producing networking products. Try again.

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 17:07:31 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:49:05 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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Louis-Philippe Reid wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Anyone ever tried to install FreeBSD on a Compaq...and had it working
> properly?
> 
I have a Compaq Deskpro/i 4/66 with 12M. Everything works excellent
except for the QVision card. I hate Compaq's, don't buy them, they are
sort of married with Microsoft.

Pedro.


> Thanks,
> 
> ---
> Louis-Philippe Reid
> Service Internet - Vidéotron Ltée



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 17:46:20 1997
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To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit 
Cc: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>,
        Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>,
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		<3378F899.70DA@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> 
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:41:32 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <3378F899.70DA@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> "Pedro F. Giffuni" writes:
: Ugh !! Are you suggesting we should include xdm on the installation
: floppy?

No.  However, an X server on a CDROM and some way for it to run in low
res mode would be way cool.  Many moderm machines can boot directly
off a cdrom.

None of this is to say that this is *REQUIRED*, just that if you have
this available, it would be used.  However, it is a lot of work...

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 17:52:57 1997
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: dennis@etinc.com (dennis), msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: if_de.c ???? 
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             <199705132317.QAA11304@phaeton.artisoft.com> 
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>From The Desk Of Terry Lambert :
> > Because they posted $1.40 loss per share last quarter, and haven't
> > had a profitable quarter in a year. Because their stock, which was 
> > trading at 28 at the start of '95, is now hovering around 8. Because
> > no matter what you think their economies of scale are, they cant
> > compete with Taiwanese labor costs, and cant turn a profit selling
> > against boards that sell for $35.
> 
> 
> I still don't understand why SMC can't use Taiwanese labor so that
> labor costs are no longer a valid discriminator for you, Dennis.
> 
> It costs the same for SMC to buy Taiwanese labor as any other company.
> There is no global "sell Taiwanese labor to anyone but SMC" conspiracy.
> 
> Why can't they sell boards for $35 and make the same profit as the
> clone vendors selling boards for $35?

Within reasonable labor costs (like typically paid in Silicon Valley) it
is very hard to beat production costs for cards like ethernet cards. 
One of my buddies who works at company XYZ did a global survey attempting
to reduce the cost of manufacturing his ethernet cards and came out empty. 
His company manufacturers thousands of cards (exact quantity left out 
on purpose). 

	Cheers,
	Amancio




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 17:54:09 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 20:52:46 -0400
From: Randall Hopper <rhh@ct.picker.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Non-Intel CPUs and FreeBSD - any K6-200/233s out there?
References: <199705090323.UAA06913@hub.freebsd.org>
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Darren Reed:
 |Is anyone using any of the AMD/Cyrix CPUs with FreeBSD successfully ?

Anyone running an AMD K6 200 or 233Mhz CPU?

(Just swapped in an ASUS P55T2P4 and am watching the chip prices.)

Randall Hopper
rhh@ct.picker.com



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 18:07:02 1997
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Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <199705140050.RAA00819@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 13, 97 05:50:08 pm"
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:35:05 +0930 (CST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, dennis@etinc.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > It costs the same for SMC to buy Taiwanese labor as any other company.
> > There is no global "sell Taiwanese labor to anyone but SMC" conspiracy.
> > 
> > Why can't they sell boards for $35 and make the same profit as the
> > clone vendors selling boards for $35?
> 
> Within reasonable labor costs (like typically paid in Silicon Valley) it
> is very hard to beat production costs for cards like ethernet cards. 
> One of my buddies who works at company XYZ did a global survey attempting
> to reduce the cost of manufacturing his ethernet cards and came out empty. 
> His company manufacturers thousands of cards (exact quantity left out 
> on purpose). 

It's worth pointing out that with automated manufacturing gear, actual
"labour" costs for assembling something high-volume like an ethernet
card are right down in the noise anyway.

> 	Amancio

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 18:12:40 1997
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To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Bt848 on P55T2P4-P100oc 
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             <199705140042.RAA28742@hub.freebsd.org> 
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Nope this is specifically for video processing and yes we do need such
a document. You see my P100 can process video to my display adapter
such as fast as my PPRO 200.

As for FreeBSD it is  more appropriate  to document the  systems based on
something like world stones, cool comm gear , etc..

We really ought to beat on the hackers or maybe the current mailing list
for such a document. I am saying -current because those hackers probably
tend to do more make worlds . If people don't volunteer for such a simple
task which many in the -current list do anyhow, then we will simply not 
have such a document.


my system or relevant parts:
OS: FreeBSD 3.0 current
CPU             : PPRO 200mhz 256k 48MB of memory (60ns dram).
Motherboard     : ASUS P/I- XP6NP5 ATX form factor
PCI chipset:    : Intel 82440FX (Natoma) 
graphic adapater: Diamond S3 968 4MB VRAM
video capture   : Wincast/tv dbx stereo
sound           : gus pnp pro
monitor         : Nano F550i 17 inch

fxtv works great in PCI to PCI mode 15, 16, 32 bit color depth.
I added  fxtv to my fvwm95 "utilities" pop menu so it is pretty
easy to pop a tv window . 

	Tnks,
	Amancio




>From The Desk Of "Jonathan M. Bresler" :
> why limit this to bt848?
> a similar database for smp
> and for motherboards/systems ingeneral would be a great
> contribution to freebsd
> 
> please do not limit this to bt848
> 
> we can host it at freebsd.org once it is ready
> 
> jmb
> 
> Amancio Hasty wrote:
> > 
> > Could any web techie take over Randall's request?
> > The end product should be placed in the Bt848 Web Page.
> > 
> > 	Tnks,
> > 	Amancio
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > >From The Desk Of Randall Hopper :
> > > Amancio Hasty:
> > >  |This is useful information . I think that what we ought to do is collec
t
> > >  |a few system configurations and publish them in the Bt848 page.
> > > 
> > > Sounds like a good idea.  I'm sure it'd help the many monitors of our lis
t
> > > with their future purchases.
> > > 
> > > We need a thorough form for folks to fill in before we start gathering
> > > data.  Could easily be an HTML form on the multimedia page (would save li
st
> > > traffic and subsequent collation), and could then be more easily massaged
> > > into an HTML table, also for web posting/browsing.
> > > 
> > > As for form fields, here's a first stab (focusing on multimedia):
> > > 
> > >    HARDWARE:
> > >                     Motherboard: (Make/Model/Vers)
> > >                      MB Chipset: 
> > >                             CPU: (Make & speed)
> > >               Overclocks tested: (CPU/Mem/PCI)
> > >                      System Mem: (Type/Speed)
> > >                      Video Card: (Make/Model, Mem/MemType)
> > >                         TV Card: (Make/Model) [anything else ?]
> > >                      Sound Card: (Make/Model)
> > >                     Other Cards:
> > >                        Comments:
> > > 
> > >    SOFTWARE:
> > >                      XFree Vers: 
> > >             Color depths tested: 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Randall
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 18:14:14 1997
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Hi,

Has anyone got any objections to making the handbook and
the tutorials' .html files using the -links flag ?  This
generates a script that will create a set of sym-links,
one per .sgml file that allows other documents to xref
specific sections of the document.

So the html rule would be

${DOC}.html: ${SRCS}
	${SGMLFORMAT} -f html -links ${SGMLFLAGS} ${.CURDIR}/${DOC}.sgml
	sh ${.CURDIR}/${DOC}.ln
	rm ${.CURDIR}/${DOC}.ln

(I'd need some advice on how to actually do this.....)

Comments/suggestions/advice needed :)
-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 18:29:39 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199705140124.KAA19577@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
In-Reply-To: <199705131607.SAA27604@ocean.campus.luth.se> from Mikael Karpberg at "May 13, 97 06:07:02 pm"
To: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:54:37 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Mikael Karpberg stands accused of saying:
> > 
> > We have already noted that the "finished" splash image is a 320x400 
> > bmp file, as currently (partially) supported.
> 
> Umm... Is this a "no, silly. we allready use another format" or not?
> I have no idea what format the logo.sys uses. But if we want to get color
> cycling in, etc, anyway... Is there a problem with using their format?
> What, in that case?

_Again_, the W95 logo.sys file is a 320x400 BMP image.

> > Symlinks are right out.  The file will have to be present, in place, 
> > in the root filesystem, in order to be read by the bootloader.
> 
> Ack! Right. Oh well... was a nice thought. :-)

It was?

> > > Color cycling should happen at an even pace, if possible. I'm not sure if
> > 
> > It's already been explained that it can't.
> 
> Umm... No. It was said that there was a timer interupt, but that it was not
> available during probing, and so you (ie "syscons") would have to wait for
> driver output and possibly do something at the same time as you output that.
> So every time you get a call from a driver, you should be able to cycle the
> colors. What you will want to do, however, is not cycle too often. So you
> save the value of the hardware clock, or something, each time you cycle.

Er, have you ever heard of anything called "hardware abstraction" or 
"layering"?

Yeah, let's just go fiddle with the timer hardware inside the console 
driver.  I'm sorry; I don't think I'm quite up to the sort of abuse
that I'd get for that 8)

> Am I correct?

Er.  "Yes you could", but "No I don't think I want to just now".

Bruce will probably correct me, but I don't think that the kernel time
code is running during the hardware probe phase.

>   /Mikael

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 18:29:57 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brian N. Handy" <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
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Terry spake:

>If that's it, then in my opinion stupid companies deserve to go
>under: stupidity *should* be penalized... how else can you disincent
>it so that it doesn't happen again?  How will the human species ever
>overcome stupidity if it's something we reward?  Do you understand
>the principles of "pressured genetic drift" (tectogenetics)?
>"Everybody!  Out of the gene pool!".


Just to make it clear to everybody, I have dibs on this for a future
.signature.  :-)


Brian


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 18:39:31 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705140131.SAA11564@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 18:31:13 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, dennis@etinc.com, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705140050.RAA00819@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at May 13, 97 05:50:08 pm
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> > It costs the same for SMC to buy Taiwanese labor as any other company.
> > There is no global "sell Taiwanese labor to anyone but SMC" conspiracy.
> > 
> > Why can't they sell boards for $35 and make the same profit as the
> > clone vendors selling boards for $35?
> 
> Within reasonable labor costs (like typically paid in Silicon Valley) it
> is very hard to beat production costs for cards like ethernet cards. 

So don't hire Americans in Silicon Valley to do manufacturing if they
are not cost effective.  Problem solved.

Sure, the Americans are out of work, but they are charging more than
the market value of their labor, so what do they expect?  They are
pricing themselves out of the market.  Maybe they should think about
that next time they go to inflate the price of labor again by raising
their minimum wage: it's obvious that all they will do is make certain
tasks uneconomical to hire Americans to do.  It's simply not worth $18
an hour for some schmuck to tighten lug-nuts.  And people wonder why
"the good old days" of full service gas stations and grocers hiring
kids to maintain their (formerly) immaculate storefronts are gone.


> One of my buddies who works at company XYZ did a global survey attempting
> to reduce the cost of manufacturing his ethernet cards and came out empty. 

Then either his cards cost less than all other comparable cards, or
he didn't look hard enough at how the comparable cards are getting
to market at a lower cost than his (if the company manufacturing the
comparable cards was able to figure it out, he can too).


> His company manufacturers thousands of cards (exact quantity left out 
> on purpose). 

Yet still, Dennis insists that the $35 clone card companies are
making money.  It's strange that the formula that works for the
clone company supposedly (somehow) won't work for any other company.

This is not rocket science, it's damn near integer math (move the
decimal point twice and it IS integer math).

If Bob drops a rock and it falls, then if Jim drops a rock, it'll most
likely fall, too.  If it doesn't, Jim needs to hire an exorcist (or
a patent attorney).


Sheesh do I hate it when people blame a "malevolent" universe for their
troubles.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 18:57:01 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 21:56:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@mat.net>
To: FreeBSD-Hackers <FreeBSD-Hackers@FreeBSD.org>
Subject: lkms
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I haven't ever used any lkm stuff before, but I want to give it a try 
now, on the cdrom driver.  I don't have a cdrom configured into the 
kernel here ... how do I go about using it?  Any tips on maximizing 
safety?  I'm running current.

----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 20:24:36 1997
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Message-Id: <199705140324.WAA11790@argus>
Subject: Re: URGENT:  Printing an X11 screen.  How?
To: Shimon@i-Connect.Net (Simon Shapiro)
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:24:31 -0500 (CDT)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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In reply:
> I need, urgently to dump to a printer a number of X11 screens.  How?

try capturing the x screens using xv then do whatever with them...

jim
-- 
All opinions expressed are mine, if you   | "I will not be pushed, stamped,
think otherwise, then go jump into turbid | briefed, debriefed, indexed, or
radioactive waters and yell WAHOO !!!     | numbered!" - #1, "The Prisoner"
 jbryant@tfs.net - KC5VDJ 2M, 70cm, KPC-3+ - kc5vdj@wv0t.#neks.ks.usa.noam

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 20:34:49 1997
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subscribe freebsd-hackers


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 20:55:50 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:46:22 +1000
From: Bruce Evans <bde@zeta.org.au>
Message-Id: <199705140346.NAA26729@godzilla.zeta.org.au>
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>.c.o:
>	${CC} ${CFLAGS} -c ${.IMPSRC} -o ${.TARGET}
>	@${LD} -O ${.TARGET} -x -r ${.TARGET}
>...
>Is there a benefit to the ld -x option?

ld -x is to strip local symbols.  This saves space and time, perhaps a
whole 200K for all libraries and 10 seconds for `make world' :-).

Bruce

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 21:43:52 1997
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Subject: Re: bsd.lib.mk 
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, jimf@lodgenet.com
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 13:46:22 +1000."
		<199705140346.NAA26729@godzilla.zeta.org.au> 
References: <199705140346.NAA26729@godzilla.zeta.org.au>  
Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 22:40:49 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <199705140346.NAA26729@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Bruce Evans writes:
: ld -x is to strip local symbols.  This saves space and time, perhaps a
: whole 200K for all libraries and 10 seconds for `make world' :-).

Is that 10 seconds normalized to a PPro-266 + FAST scsi, or a 386-SX25
with 8M of memory :-)

Warner

P.S. I was able to get FreeBSD installed on the latter last night
(well, modulo the disk problems with the old 80M ESDI drives).  4M was
too small and I was able to load the install program, but not execute
any commands for want of swap space.  Didn't have 256K simms around to
try to 5M or 6M machines.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 21:49:33 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:44:01 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
CC: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>,
        Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>,
        msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
References: <3378F899.70DA@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>  <199705131918.MAA10641@phaeton.artisoft.com> <E0wRS8K-0006Kb-00@rover.village.org>
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Warner Losh wrote:
> 
> In message <3378F899.70DA@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> "Pedro F. Giffuni" writes:
> : Ugh !! Are you suggesting we should include xdm on the installation
> : floppy?
> 
Ooops! I forgot an smiley here. I know we want something like OS2's
installation but with an added screensaver. The only thing I really hope
is that no one decides to add color-ls as the default.


> No.  However, an X server on a CDROM and some way for it to run in low
> res mode would be way cool.  Many moderm machines can boot directly
> off a cdrom.
>
This idea seriously is not bad at all, we can keep it for the next
century.
 
> None of this is to say that this is *REQUIRED*, just that if you have
> this available, it would be used.  However, it is a lot of work...
> 
> Warner

Pedro.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 22:01:37 1997
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Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 23:57:36 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
CC: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
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Sure it must be tested in scope and stability, but that shouldn't stop
us from porting it, or at least submitting patches to INRIA.
If it is not what we (you) expect form it, we can do what Amaya does and
use Thot's library to implement a "better" tool.
Amaya is valuable for it's own reasons: I PR'd sometime ago that Arena
signalled "Bad HTML" on at least one page of our documentation project.
Having an standard tool (even if it's beta) is very important.

Pedro.


Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> Before even on deciding on a separate CDrom distribution , it is more
> appropriate to decide whether thot is useful or not. On the surface
> it looks really good , I just have to use thot more extensively  over
> here to determine is goodness.
> 
>         Cheers,
>         Amancio
>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 22:22:52 1997
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From: Joachim Kuebart <joa@delos.stuttgart.netsurf.de>
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Hi!

Is there no way to connect my 192.168.1.0 subnet to the internet over my
_one_ static IP from my ISP using a program from the ports?
If there is a way, which is it?

TIA

c u Jo

sorry, no sig due to setup problems


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 22:24:10 1997
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From: Joachim Kuebart <joa@delos.stuttgart.netsurf.de>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: IP filtering?
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Hi!

What exactly does the
	sysctl net.inet.ip.forwarding
switch do?

c u Jo

sorry no sig. see my last messageA


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 23:26:29 1997
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On Wed, 14 May 1997, Joachim Kuebart wrote:

> Is there no way to connect my 192.168.1.0 subnet to the internet over my
> _one_ static IP from my ISP using a program from the ports?
> If there is a way, which is it?

Several ways:

1. If you are dialing up using /usr/sbin/ppp, add -alias to the ppp 
startup flags.
2. If you are using 2.2, build a kernel with IPFIREWALL, IPDIVERT options 
and use natd (now in the ports collection)
3. Install ipfilter and use its nat features.

Danny

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 23:27:33 1997
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On Wed, 14 May 1997, Joachim Kuebart wrote:

> Hi!
> 
> What exactly does the
> 	sysctl net.inet.ip.forwarding
> switch do?

Allows your box to pass packets between two different networks (usually 
on different network interfaces).  In other words, the box acts as a router.

Danny

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 23:51:55 1997
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From: Joachim Kuebart <joa@delos.stuttgart.netsurf.de>

>Hi!
>
>What exactly does the
> sysctl net.inet.ip.forwarding
>switch do?

hehe.. I just had my first fight with this.  What it does, is enable
simple IP forwarding.  I can't offer much more of an explination, but
here's what I've now got set up:


One computer dials into my terminal server at work, and is assigned
an IP.  The terminal server is also configured to route any traffic
for a /29 subnet to that IP.
On my computer, I enable net.inet.ip.forwarding, and am able to have
up to 6 computers (limited by the range of the subnet) in my home
connected to the internet over a single dial-up connection.

To go off on a tangent, I had a difficult time figuring out how to do
this, because I was told that it was possible without running a
routed or gated on my system.  In /etc/sysconfig, the name of the
option is 'gateway', and I automatically associated this with gated. 
Maybe this option should be renamed to 'ip_forwarding' in future
releases.  I feel that this would help reduce confusion for others as
they too start to play with different network configurations.

--
Troy Settle <st@i-Plus.net>
Network Administrator, iPlus Internet Services
http://www.i-Plus.net


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Tue May 13 23:54:04 1997
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From: Eivind Eklund <perhaps@yes.no>
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CC: imp@village.org, terry@lambert.org, karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se,
        msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: "Pedro F. Giffuni"'s message of Tue, 13 May 1997 23:44:01 -0700
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
References: <3378F899.70DA@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
	<199705131918.MAA10641@phaeton.artisoft.com>
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> 
> Warner Losh wrote:
> > 
> > In message <3378F899.70DA@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> "Pedro F. Giffuni" writes:
> > : Ugh !! Are you suggesting we should include xdm on the installation
> > : floppy?
> > 
> Ooops! I forgot an smiley here. I know we want something like OS2's
> installation but with an added screensaver. The only thing I really hope
> is that no one decides to add color-ls as the default.

colorls has a whole bunch of problems.  However, linuxls with colors
actually work quite nicely - it defaults to no colors (yeah!), and has
a '--color=tty' option that will only do color sequences if you
actually use a tty, making it work without problems in a pipe.

I think having that as part of our ls would be good for 'sales' - but
it isn't so important I'm going to take the effort of arguing for it
(but maybe I'll implement it if there suddenly seems to be a consensus
shouting for it :)

Eivind.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 00:03:24 1997
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> 
> Hi!
> 
> Is there no way to connect my 192.168.1.0 subnet to the internet over my
> _one_ static IP from my ISP using a program from the ports?
> If there is a way, which is it?

natd.  If you're running PPP, however, just start with ppp -alias and
you're all set - no need to fiddle.

Eivind.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 00:11:04 1997
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In-Reply-To: <33795F31.6B64@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> from "Pedro F. Giffuni" at May 13, 97 11:44:01 pm
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	Anyway.. What's so good about graphical installation programs?
I have had a small www server in a 386 with 8 MB RAM and an MDA card.
Yes, that old card that couldn't even do graphics!

	The old IBM green phosphor monitor is quite cool.

	Borja.

> 
> Warner Losh wrote:
> > 
> > In message <3378F899.70DA@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> "Pedro F. Giffuni" writes:
> > : Ugh !! Are you suggesting we should include xdm on the installation
> > : floppy?
> > 
> Ooops! I forgot an smiley here. I know we want something like OS2's
> installation but with an added screensaver. The only thing I really hope
> is that no one decides to add color-ls as the default.
> 
> 
> > No.  However, an X server on a CDROM and some way for it to run in low
> > res mode would be way cool.  Many moderm machines can boot directly
> > off a cdrom.
> >
> This idea seriously is not bad at all, we can keep it for the next
> century.
>  
> > None of this is to say that this is *REQUIRED*, just that if you have
> > this available, it would be used.  However, it is a lot of work...
> > 
> > Warner
> 
> Pedro.
> 


-- 
***********************************************************************
Borja Marcos			* Internet: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es
Alangoeta, 11 1 izq		*	    borjam@well.com
48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya)	*           borjamar@sarenet.es
SPAIN				* CompuServe: 100015,3502
***********************************************************************

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 00:53:44 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:52:40 +0100 (BST)
From: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
To: "Michael K. Sanders" <msanders@aros.net>
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On Tue, 13 May 1997, Michael K. Sanders wrote:

> In message <199705131721.KAA15767@seagull.rtd.com>, Don Yuniskis writes:
> 
> ...
> 
> >     I've previously done this with /usr residing on the SCSI drives
> >but get annoyed at the fact that /usr/bin, /usr/sbin are not available
> >when I dismount the SCSI devices.  Mounting just /usr/local on the
> >SCSI drives doesn't help accomodate other things added to /usr.
> >So, I think overlaying /usr *completely* with the external device
> >is also a win.
> 
> Sounds like a good applicaiton for unionfs, thought I don't know if
> it's currently functional in FreeBSD.

Its getting better in current.  Last time I played with it, I mounted an
empty directory on /usr/src and tried running 'make all'.  It got a fair
way before it choked.  There was some file corruption (in new files,
existing files are safe) which could probably be attributed to mmap.

--
Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 951 1891


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 01:06:12 1997
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To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 May 1997 23:57:36 PDT."
             <33796260.1A2C@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> 
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I am not sure where you are coming from ;however, you are free to write
a ports wrapper for Thot and Amaya.

As for the thot library, yeap it is a good thing to have around .
It is nice to have such a library written in C as supposed to C++.
How much of that library am I going to use ? I don't know is not 
clear to me . At lot depends on the architecture of the program.
If we use Glyphs , I supposed that we can use a lot of the library
given that the Glyph structure allows us to abstract objects:
characters, lines, columns, pages, documents.

For sure the algorithms used in Thot are worth looking into.

What I am pitching is for is that if Thot is good we can start advertising it
and hopefully standardize our internal documentation based on its format.
Internal documentation meaning things like : reports, articles, etc...



>From The Desk Of "Pedro F. Giffuni" :
> Sure it must be tested in scope and stability, but that shouldn't stop
> us from porting it, or at least submitting patches to INRIA.
> If it is not what we (you) expect form it, we can do what Amaya does and
> use Thot's library to implement a "better" tool.
> Amaya is valuable for it's own reasons: I PR'd sometime ago that Arena
> signalled "Bad HTML" on at least one page of our documentation project.
> Having an standard tool (even if it's beta) is very important.
> 
> Pedro.
> 
> 
> Amancio Hasty wrote:
> > 
> > Before even on deciding on a separate CDrom distribution , it is more
> > appropriate to decide whether thot is useful or not. On the surface
> > it looks really good , I just have to use thot more extensively  over
> > here to determine is goodness.
> > 
> >         Cheers,
> >         Amancio
> >



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 01:45:25 1997
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From: Mikael Karpberg <karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Message-Id: <199705140853.KAA05533@ocean.campus.luth.se>
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:53:50 +0200 (MET DST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705140124.KAA19577@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "May 14, 97 10:54:37 am"
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According to Michael Smith:
> Mikael Karpberg stands accused of saying:
[...]
> > I have no idea what format the logo.sys uses. But if we want to get color
> > cycling in, etc, anyway... Is there a problem with using their format?
> > What, in that case?
> 
> _Again_, the W95 logo.sys file is a 320x400 BMP image.

So there should be no problem, then? Someone (Terry?) said it was not quite
a BMP image, though. Maybe just a minor change.

[...]
> > So every time you get a call from a driver, you should be able to cycle the
> > colors. What you will want to do, however, is not cycle too often. So you
> > save the value of the hardware clock, or something, each time you cycle.
> 
> Er, have you ever heard of anything called "hardware abstraction" or 
> "layering"?
> 
> Yeah, let's just go fiddle with the timer hardware inside the console 
> driver.  I'm sorry; I don't think I'm quite up to the sort of abuse
> that I'd get for that 8)

:-) I'm just handing out design ideas, with wild guesses on implementation
details in them. I must confess I have a _very_ limited knowledge of the
kernel, and it's workings. There must be _some_ way of doing simple timing,
no? It wouldn't even need to be very exact.

> > Am I correct?
> 
> Er.  "Yes you could", but "No I don't think I want to just now".

Ah, that's a different matter. :-)
It's not worth messing up everything completely for, ofcourse. If it
is, however, not too hard to take timestamps, then it would make the
cycling look a lot nicer, probably.

  /Mikael


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 01:56:34 1997
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 01:05:50 PDT."
             <199705140805.BAA03496@rah.star-gate.com> 
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 01:56:48 -0700
Message-ID: <14271.863600208@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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> What I am pitching is for is that if Thot is good we can start advertising it
> and hopefully standardize our internal documentation based on its format.
> Internal documentation meaning things like : reports, articles, etc...

But we already have such a standard and it's called SGML.  There would
have to be some pretty significant advantages to Thot in order to replace
our current doc system and, frankly, I just don't see it happening.  Too
much work has gone into the existing framework, for one thing.

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 02:00:16 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:59:07 +0100
From: Nik Clayton <nik@blueberry.co.uk>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
References: <33796260.1A2C@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> <199705140805.BAA03496@rah.star-gate.com>
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On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 01:05:50AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> What I am pitching is for is that if Thot is good we can start advertising it
> and hopefully standardize our internal documentation based on its format.
> Internal documentation meaning things like : reports, articles, etc...

Um, whos internal documentation?

Yours (as in, your own personal stuff), or the FreeBSD project's (articles,
FAQ, Handbook and so on).

If the latter, what's wrong with DocBook, particularly with John Fieber's
first cut at tutorial documentation at 

    http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber/docbook/markupguide.html

Or have I got the wrong end of the stick, and you can use Thot to write
DocBook markup (at which point the masses start screaming "Emacs + psgml"
:-) )

N
-- 
--+=[ Blueberry Hill                  Blueberry New Media                ]=+--
--+=[ http://www.blueberry.co.uk/     1/9 Chelsea Harbour Design Centre, ]=+--
--+=[ WebMaster@blueberry.co.uk       London, England, SW10 0XE          ]=+--
--+=[       Those who do not read Dilbert are doomed to repeat it        ]ENTP

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 02:15:08 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:14:44 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Alexander Fuchsstadt <afuchs@totum.plaut.de>
To: lpreid@videotron.com
cc: hackers@freebsd.com
Subject: Re: fBSD on Compaq
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Hi,

Compaqs run fine with fBSD and fast also. At home I have an old 386/25i,
put a 2GB EIDE hardisk in it and an 8speed CDROM, dedicated to run as
ISDN-router with bisdn and 3.0-970209-SNAP.
The last thing I tried was to install on a ProLiant 2500 with two RAID1
disksets. Compaq uses SymbiosLogic (former NCR) 53C875 controlers for
internal SCSI Fast Wide and also for their Smart Array Controler.
The internal disks can be used, the array controler is recognized (cause
of the chip), but no access to the disks is possible when they are
configured as a RAID.
Any Idea how to make work a Smart Array Controler with RAIDs?
Network is a Netflex, which is recognized also, but I didn't try to
configure a driver for it. It must be a different hardware than in the
Deskpro 6000, in which I couldn't make work the network-if at all.
Even the PD-drives are working with the od-driver, but use of cdrom in
these are not further possible (these drives are for optical and cdrom,
using LUN0 and LUN1 of the same SCSI-ID).

Any experiences with fBSD on Compaq-hardware appreciated!

Bye, Alex



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 02:16:40 1997
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In-Reply-To: Message from "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> 
  of Tue, 13 May 97 13:01:44 PDT.
Reply-To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
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pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co writes:
> Amancio Hasty wrote:
> > 
> > "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> pointed me out to:
> > http://opera.inrialpes.fr/thot/
> > ....
> > 
> > If thot should prove to be  useful and stable we can adopt it .
> > Hey, if the code bloat bothers you it is well worth it to have a
> > separate CDROM with tot and amaya, a web editor / browser.
> > We can also include other OO packages such as ACE, ILU and a couple of
> > CORBA ORBs 8)
> > 
> It's not that much, besides thot's libraries are shared by Amaya. WC may
> also be happy, some people prefer Linux because "it comes with more CDs"
> :-).
> 

putting this in the tree is not such a good idea since most people
don't have Motif. If this could be made to work with lessitf, then
it would be a good candidate for a port.

I played around with it a little bit yesterday with the goal of getting
it to work with lesstif, but I can't even get it to compile. Too much
stuff missing in config.h, I think.

---
Gary Jennejohn				(work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com
					(home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de
					(play) gj@freebsd.org



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 03:21:09 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:59:47 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: socketpair()
References: <199705111800.NAA08334@dyson.iquest.net> <Pine.LNX.3.95.970511150951.1638F-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
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As Alex Belits wrote:

>   As I understand, bidirectional pipes in SVR4 are only a side effect of
> STREAMS,...

...as were the 4.4BSD anonymous pipes (they were using the socket
layers anyway).  They have been artificially forced to become
unidirectional, by making one of the descriptors read-only and one
write-only.

I also see portability as the biggest problem: if you don't read the
man page carefully, and now accidentally use the `wrong' pipe
direction, the code will work on FreeBSD and SVR4, but will fail (with
an EBADF?) on quite a number of other systems.

Perhaps we should also make it a sysctl variable, so one can test his
code for being correct?

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 03:29:50 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:12:00 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: sio flow control problems with 2.2?
References: <199705111949.MAA06176@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199705120708.JAA21494@labinfo.iet.unipi.it>
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As Luigi Rizzo wrote:

> which was my question in the first place.. do I have working flow
> control ? I just don't know how broken are my internal modems.

Since internal modems do it all in a single chip (including the UART
emulation), they also have to emulate flow-control only.  They often
don't even emulate the UARTs correctly (see the various device probing
problems with them), which made me generally mistrusting any of their
actions.

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 03:30:18 1997
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To: Nik Clayton <nik@blueberry.co.uk>
cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 09:59:07 BST."
             <19970514095907.40722@blueberry.co.uk> 
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 03:29:45 -0700
From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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I am going to investigate how can Thot support directly DocBook.
As Thot is it can export Thot (native format), LaTex, and HTML.

	Amancio



>From The Desk Of Nik Clayton :
> On Wed, May 14, 1997 at 01:05:50AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> > What I am pitching is for is that if Thot is good we can start advertising 
it
> > and hopefully standardize our internal documentation based on its format.
> > Internal documentation meaning things like : reports, articles, etc...
> 
> Um, whos internal documentation?
> 
> Yours (as in, your own personal stuff), or the FreeBSD project's (articles,
> FAQ, Handbook and so on).
> 
> If the latter, what's wrong with DocBook, particularly with John Fieber's
> first cut at tutorial documentation at 
> 
>     http://fallout.campusview.indiana.edu/~jfieber/docbook/markupguide.html
> 
> Or have I got the wrong end of the stick, and you can use Thot to write
> DocBook markup (at which point the masses start screaming "Emacs + psgml"
> :-) )
> 
> N
> -- 
> --+=[ Blueberry Hill                  Blueberry New Media                ]=+-
-
> --+=[ http://www.blueberry.co.uk/     1/9 Chelsea Harbour Design Centre, ]=+-
-
> --+=[ WebMaster@blueberry.co.uk       London, England, SW10 0XE          ]=+-
-
> --+=[       Those who do not read Dilbert are doomed to repeat it        ]ENT
P



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 03:53:06 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:38:17 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au (David Dawes),
        davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au (David Nugent)
Subject: Re: xdm in /usr/X11R6/etc/rc.d problem
References: <19970428170203.28285@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> <199704290713.RAA29511@labs.usn.blaze.net.au> <19970512224433.64758@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au>
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As David Dawes wrote:

> >Well, even if the wtmp/utmp format is not revised today as we've
> >tentatively planned in FreeBSD, there's no reason why we can't at
> >least provide an API.
> 
> Is any of this likely to be ready in the next week or so?  I'm asking
> because we'll be finalising the XFree86 3.3 release *very* soon, and if
> any of these things are ready they could be included in that release.

Do you plan a FreeBSD-3.0-current release of XFree86 3.3, too?
Otherwise, it won't be affected anyway.

If you do however, it might be worth the while to do the deed.  David
(N.), could you take it?

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 03:59:12 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:39:45 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: An idea, it is possibly good
References: <199705121248.IAA05517@maelstrom.cc.mcgill.ca> <Pine.SUN.3.91.970512095741.29234B-100000@terra>
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As Ron G. Minnich wrote:

> data general's AOS operating system had control-point directories, in 
> which quota-type stuff could be set. AN interesting idea, with obvious 
> applications ...

I would be more happy with a logical volume manager though. ;-)

(Btw., not only their AOS/VS, also DG/UX supported (supports?) CPDs.
Now i know where they have been inheriting the idea from. :)

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 04:03:31 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 12:42:31 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com (Richard J Kuhns)
Subject: Re: Problem getting up-to-date with 2.2 using CTM
References: <199705121339.IAA17025@sparcmill.grauel.com>
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As Richard J Kuhns wrote:

> I followed the instructions in src-2.2-CTM-README on ftp.freebsd.org; it
> said that if I wanted to update 2.2.1, I needed to start with
> src-2.2.0217.gz.  I tried, with the following results.
> 
> : adler$~; cd /usr/src
> : adler$/usr/src; echo "src-2.2 216" > .ctm_status
> : adler$/usr/src; ctm -v /usr2/2.2/src-2.2.02*
> Working on </usr2/2.2/src-2.2.0217.gz>
>   FN: release/sysinstall/help/hardware.hlp md5 mismatch.
>   FN: release/sysinstall/help/hardware.hlp edit fails.
> Exit(104)

I think the problem with this is that the releases itself aren't being
built from a distinct CTM delta base.  Thus, it's very hard to
maintain synchronization between the CTM batching and the actual
release build process.

You might get more luck with CVSup in this case, since it can handle
mismatching files (and will at worst retransfer them entirely,
something CTM cannot do since it's operating offline).

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 04:30:03 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 08:36:17 -0300 (ARST)
From: Angel Talamona <actf@tlon.ieee.org.ar>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: looking for a screen map
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Hi!

Would someone tell me where can I find an ISO-8859-1 screen map to 
download? (My spanish keyboard mapping is OK, but terminal output 
doesn't fit...) I'm using a FreeBSD R2.1.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Angel Talamona
actf@sede.unr.edu.ar
Universidad Nacional de Rosario
ARGENTINA

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 04:53:12 1997
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 Kuhns on May 12, 1997 08:39:25 -0500
 <199705121339.IAA17025@sparcmill.grauel.com>
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 06:53:08 -0500
To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de (Joerg Wunsch)
From: Richard Wackerbarth <rkw@dataplex.net>
Subject: Re: Problem getting up-to-date with 2.2 using CTM
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, rjk@sparcmill.grauel.com (Richard J Kuhns)
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At 5:42 AM -0500 5/14/97, J Wunsch wrote:
>As Richard J Kuhns wrote:
>
>> I followed the instructions in src-2.2-CTM-README on ftp.freebsd.org; it
>> said that if I wanted to update 2.2.1, I needed to start with
>> src-2.2.0217.gz.  I tried, with the following results.
>>
>> : adler$~; cd /usr/src
>> : adler$/usr/src; echo "src-2.2 216" > .ctm_status
>> : adler$/usr/src; ctm -v /usr2/2.2/src-2.2.02*
>> Working on </usr2/2.2/src-2.2.0217.gz>
>>   FN: release/sysinstall/help/hardware.hlp md5 mismatch.
>>   FN: release/sysinstall/help/hardware.hlp edit fails.
>> Exit(104)
>
>I think the problem with this is that the releases itself aren't being
>built from a distinct CTM delta base.  Thus, it's very hard to
>maintain synchronization between the CTM batching and the actual
>release build process.

However, the CTM base delta was built from the release (as posted by Jordan)
Particularly because the error is in a sysinstall help file, I suspect that
Jordan changed something changed and the release that was placed on the CD
did not match to one I was told would be there.

When I get back home and can examine the CD, I'll build a base from it.
In the interim, you can manually force your way past the problems by
deleting the offending entries and forcing the update.



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 05:52:55 1997
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Message-Id: <199705141252.WAA24638@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: An idea, it is possibly good
In-Reply-To: <19970514123945.EI54300@uriah.heep.sax.de> from J Wunsch at "May 14, 97 12:39:45 pm"
To: joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de
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J Wunsch stands accused of saying:
> As Ron G. Minnich wrote:
> 
> > data general's AOS operating system had control-point directories, in 
> > which quota-type stuff could be set. AN interesting idea, with obvious 
> > applications ...
> 
> (Btw., not only their AOS/VS, also DG/UX supported (supports?) CPDs.
> Now i know where they have been inheriting the idea from. :)

How do you handle hard links between "controlled" areas?  Sounds to me
like a bogload of traversal to find out what area you're in...

> -- 
> cheers, J"org
> 
> joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
> Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)
> 


-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 07:30:26 1997
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Subject: Re: xdm in /usr/X11R6/etc/rc.d problem 
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:27:33 +1000
From: David Nugent <davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au>
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>  If you do however, it might be worth the while to do the deed.  David
>  (N.), could you take it?

Yes, I've been working on it.

Lastlogin (part of the 'utmp' package) was relative easy. Defining
an extensible format for utmp/wtmp wasn't such a pushover,
unfortunately, once I had thought through all of the issues.

If I post the code I'm working on to you for comment, is anyone
interested in looking at it? Bear in mind that there's a time-frame
to be kept with Xfree 3.3's impending release - we can either miss
this completely and hope that there's another release prior FreeBSD
3.0 (possible?) or we can finish the api now, so comments should be
fast. [If I had started this a couple of weeks ago when it first
came up, there wouldn't be such a hurry, but I had other things to
do then. :-(]. If there are major objections to the approach I've
taken, then we'll just hold off and not worry about Xfree 3.3, and
resolve it in our own good time.

While the modules themselves are BSD in nature, I also want to put
in code to handle other OS's, so they can be submitted to the
various OS groups and incorporated without them having to do
terribly much. It'd be nice having a reasonably uniform OS-independant
interface to wtmp/utmp at least between freely available operating
systems. I know it would save many headaches. Until accepted by
the various OS's, the code could probably be used as is with the
relevant #defines as a generic utmp/wtmp interface anyway (until
those OS's start toying with the format of the underlying files,
at any rate :-)).

The problem I'm running into is deciding how to do an "extensible"
interface to utmp/wtmp. First, the actual utmp/wtmp structures
(I actually use xutmp to help avoid name collision problems, and
utmpx seems already to be in use in some environments) use the usual
fields present in a utmp struct, but they are NUL terminated strings
(char*) rather than fixed sized arrays - the API does all of the
packing unpacking as appropriate, including FreeBSD's usual hostname
shortening currently done by login(1), so that parts of the hostname
fields don't get blown away.

But if someone wants to add extra data to each record, I have a
struct xutmpinfo*, which is a ptr to an array containing additional
information. Or it can be a linked list (with an addition field
for a 'next' ptr):

struct xutmpinfo {
  int type;
  int len;
  void *data;
};

With utmp, the record size can actually be *runtime* determined
(but to begin with, no additional information is catered for, so
it is backwards compatible until we can sort out all of the source
tree and the ports that use utmp/wtmp directly), and I thought
about the possibility of putting 'tagged' data after each record.
The actual record size is contained in the ut_time field in the
first slot, which is currently unusued (or as far as I can
determine it is, since ttyslot() starts at 1, and 0 means "none
present". I don't think it is used for anything else - correct me
if I am wrong).

wtmp, however, is another thing. We can't easily change the
record size between reboots, because it just grows, and (right
now at least) everything assumes a uniform record size. Adding
more data to each record and we end up throwing out past
records, which is imho unacceptible, and allocating lots of
"spare" space to each record is an equally gross solution.

Ultimately, the extensions in wtmp can be added if the format of
the actual file is changed, unlike utmp, where it doesn't really
need to - not right now. Right now we can just define the API and
work to have everything else keep their hands directly off it.

I think the best format for wtmp will be a standard text line-feed
delimited file only, and in fact this will be considerably *smaller*
than the present wtmp because the current fixed length records waste
a lot of space. Things like last(1) will have to be able to cast
through that backwards which is not so easy to do with variable length
records, but the API will even have an interface that supports that
(with buffering as well), so they won't have to worry about it.

Now, if you've followed me so far, well and good. :) The problem
I'm having related to saving and retrieval of this 'tagged data'
for utmp. Perhaps I can delay the decision as to how this is done
until later, but I think in order to prevent this becoming bit-rot
because it hasn't been thought out properly, it needs to be
discussed. Should I post the code, or upload it to freefall for
everyone to fetch? It is not yet quite complete, but should be
done within the next day or so. Suggestions, comments and bugfixes
on it would be most welcome.

FWIW, most of the difficulties relate to memory management when
/reading/ the tagged data for utmp. IMHO the interface isn't very
clean, so perhaps someone with a fresh viewpoint might be able to
suggest a better way to handle it.


Regards,
David

David Nugent - Unique Computing Pty Ltd - Melbourne, Australia
Voice +61-3-9791-9547  Data/BBS +61-3-9792-3507  3:632/348@fidonet
davidn@freebsd.org davidn@blaze.net.au http://www.blaze.net.au/~davidn/


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 07:32:43 1997
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From: Alexis Yushin <alexis@NL.net>
Message-Id: <199705141431.QAA26963@eekholt.NL.net>
Subject: FreeBSD for sparc?
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:31:58 +0200 (MET DST)
Reply-To: alexis@NL.net (Alexis Yushin)
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Greetings,

	I'm sorry for the perhaps stupid question, but I am not on the
list anymore and a little bit outdated on the FreeBSD course of actions
-- due to my relocation to Holland et cetera...

	Are there any experiments made with running FreeBSD on sparc
platform? Please if you have any information regarding it let me know
with email. Thanks a bundle,
								alexis
-- 
		Catch your dreams before they slip away

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 07:37:01 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 09:39:45 -0500
From: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
To: "Brian N. Handy" <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
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On May 05, 1997 at 06:30:01PM -0700, Brian N. Handy wrote:
> Terry spake:
> 
> >"Everybody!  Out of the gene pool!".
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Isn't this actually a zippy the pinhead quote?


> Just to make it clear to everybody, I have dibs on this for a future
> .signature.  :-)

--
Jonathan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 07:37:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 00:36:49 +1000
From: David Dawes <dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au>
To: David Nugent <davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au>
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: xdm in /usr/X11R6/etc/rc.d problem
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On Thu, May 15, 1997 at 12:27:33AM +1000, David Nugent wrote:
>>  If you do however, it might be worth the while to do the deed.  David
>>  (N.), could you take it?
>
>Yes, I've been working on it.
>
>Lastlogin (part of the 'utmp' package) was relative easy. Defining
>an extensible format for utmp/wtmp wasn't such a pushover,
>unfortunately, once I had thought through all of the issues.
>
>If I post the code I'm working on to you for comment, is anyone
>interested in looking at it? Bear in mind that there's a time-frame
>to be kept with Xfree 3.3's impending release - we can either miss
>this completely and hope that there's another release prior FreeBSD
>3.0 (possible?) or we can finish the api now, so comments should be
>fast. [If I had started this a couple of weeks ago when it first
>came up, there wouldn't be such a hurry, but I had other things to
>do then. :-(]. If there are major objections to the approach I've
>taken, then we'll just hold off and not worry about Xfree 3.3, and
>resolve it in our own good time.

I don't want you to rush this just to get it into XFree86 3.3.  It
is better to get it right first time.

David

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 08:27:24 1997
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> 
> > What I am pitching is for is that if Thot is good we can start advertising it
> > and hopefully standardize our internal documentation based on its format.
> > Internal documentation meaning things like : reports, articles, etc...
> 
> But we already have such a standard and it's called SGML....

SGML is a format, Thot is a toolset and an editor. Correct me if I'm
wrong, but I haven't seen a good SGML tool in our ports tree.
 Thot produces Latex and HTML. AFAIK HTML is a subset of SGML, so I
guess Thot fits into the "standard".
Anyway I think Amancio is right; we first have to determine if Thot is
the right editor for our internal documentation. The searching process
will be very fruitful if, like I hope, it translates into ports !

	Pedro.

> 
>                                         Jordan



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 08:28:25 1997
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Borja Marcos wrote:
> 
>         Anyway.. What's so good about graphical installation programs?

It's the Bill-Gates-mania, they want to turn FreeBSD into a flying
toaster :-).

> 
>         The old IBM green phosphor monitor is quite cool.
> 
Yeah! I use an IBM 5350 to login :).

	Pedro.

>         Borja.
> 
> --
> ***********************************************************************
> Borja Marcos                    * Internet: borjam@we.lc.ehu.es
> Alangoeta, 11 1 izq             *           borjam@well.com
> 48990 - Algorta (Vizcaya)       *           borjamar@sarenet.es
> SPAIN                           * CompuServe: 100015,3502
> ***********************************************************************



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 08:28:58 1997
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garyj@frt.dec.com wrote:
> 
> putting this in the tree is not such a good idea since most people
> don't have Motif. If this could be made to work with lessitf, then
> it would be a good candidate for a port.
> 
Precisely that why it must be ported: Everyone can get the statically
linked package. That's what other platforms do, but since we are not
officially supported we are not there (yet).

	Pedro.
> 
> ---
> Gary Jennejohn                          (work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com
>                                         (home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de
>                                         (play) gj@freebsd.org


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 08:33:28 1997
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I also asked that "stupid" question in the multiplatform list :).
There is a DEC Alpha port coming, an I guess SPARC will be worked on
someday, but nothing serious yet.
Try OpenBSD :(.

	Pedro.


Alexis Yushin wrote:
> 
> Greetings,
> 
>         I'm sorry for the perhaps stupid question, but I am not on the
> list anymore and a little bit outdated on the FreeBSD course of actions
> -- due to my relocation to Holland et cetera...
> 
>         Are there any experiments made with running FreeBSD on sparc
> platform? Please if you have any information regarding it let me know
> with email. Thanks a bundle,
>                                                                 alexis
> --
>                 Catch your dreams before they slip away

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 08:58:33 1997
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At 04:25 PM 5/13/97 -0700, you wrote:
>>>I can't see why not.  They've been doing it for the last 15 years, I
>>>can't see them stopping now.  If they do, I can see a lot of people
>>>giving them the Diamond/Matrox/Microchannel shoulder.
>>
>>Because they posted $1.40 loss per share last quarter, and haven't
>>had a profitable quarter in a year. Because their stock, which was 
>>trading at 28 at the start of '95, is now hovering around 8. Because
>>no matter what you think their economies of scale are, they cant
>>compete with Taiwanese labor costs, and cant turn a profit selling
>>against boards that sell for $35.
>
>   They've always sold cards with NICs with publically available specs, so
>nothing that has occurred in the last year has anything to do with this.
>As I'm sure you know, just about all networking stocks are way down at the
>moment, not just SMC and 3Com, but Cisco, Bay Networks, and everyone else
>producing networking products. Try again.

Actually, you are wrong David. What's "occurred" is a massive expansion in
demand that allows multiple clone manufactures to buy parts in HUGE quantities
and sell at tiny margins. THAT, is a big occurrance, particulary when the
price point
of these ASICs drop to nearly nothing at very large quantities.

Dennis



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 09:07:26 1997
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On Wed, 14 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:

> For sure the algorithms used in Thot are worth looking into.
> 
> What I am pitching is for is that if Thot is good we can start advertising it
> and hopefully standardize our internal documentation based on its format.
> Internal documentation meaning things like : reports, articles, etc...

It is important to make clear the difference between
standardizing the *data* and standardizing the *application*.
The computer industry on the whole has focused on the latter to
the benefits of vendors and at great cost to the user.  The
typical user has a much greater investment in their data than in
the software they used to create it, yet the data formats are
only of secondary consideration.

Breaking this dammaging tradition requires inverting the standard
line of "does it work with my favorite application" and thinking
about in terms of "does the application work with the data".  For
this to work, the data standard must be nailed down.  This is
where SGML, or possibly its recent offspring, XML, come in.  SGML
is application neutral, yet flexible enough for most any
documentation task.  It is rapidly gaining momentum as well.
Corel WordPerfect, for example, is quite proficient at dealing
with SGML documents and is even shipped with the Docbook DTD.
Even Microsoft is drifting (slowly) toward SGML support.

The critical thing is that SGML documents can be exchanged
between all these tools with absolutely *no* markup loss or
corruption.  The same cannot be said for any other format that
I'm aware of.

Basically, understand the data, then write the application.  My
concern is that the focus here is on the application (Thot).




About the application, from by brief exposure (via Amaya) the
general model that Thot uses is seems to be conceptually
compatible with SGML, but I don't know how well the compatibility
carries down to the nitty gritty details.  If it doesn't it
shouldn't be too much of a stretch to fix it.

However, a year or two ago I did a little research project on
structure enforcing editors for both programming languages and
human languages.  The problem with all of them is that they tend
to impose the structure of a *finish* program or document.  The
only time the program exists in that state is when you are done
editing it.  During the editing process, it is absolutely
essential that an editor allows the authors to create and fiddle
structurally/syntactically incorrect document fragments with
ease.  If not, the editor will hinder more than it helps.

My only experience with Thot is through Amaya and my initial
impression was that it would be a royal pain to actually write
something with it.  Other SGML editors are afflicted with similar
problems.  In my opinion, emacs+psgml strikes a nice balance by
allowing you to check structure/syntax and get help on
structure/syntax without actually imposing it in a dictatorial
fashion.  (...but I personally use nedit most of the time...) 

-john


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 09:09:58 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:09:38 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
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On Wed, 14 May 1997, Brian Somers wrote:

> Has anyone got any objections to making the handbook and
> the tutorials' .html files using the -links flag ?  This

No objection, but I'd prefer to have it specified with SGMLOPTS
in the individual makefiles rather than bsd.sgml.mk.  (Note:
sgmlfmt simply ignores flags not applicable to the specified
output format so there is no harm in having -links specified for,
say, postscript as well). 

-john


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>>>>> Pedro F Giffuni writes:

 > Anyway I think Amancio is right; we first have to determine if Thot is
 > the right editor for our internal documentation. The searching process

It seems to me that you still confuse the format and the tool. The
right editor is already there since we have vi :-) Document writers
are free to use program X oy Y as long as the document format is SGML.
It does not matter if the C code in /usr/src/* is written with cat, vi
or emacs.

Jean-Marc
 _____________________________________________________________________________
 Jean-Marc Zucconi       Observatoire de Besancon       F 25010 Besancon cedex
                   PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
 =============================================================================

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 10:29:26 1997
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Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
To: perhaps@yes.no (Eivind Eklund)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 10:18:27 -0700 (MST)
Cc: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, imp@village.org, terry@lambert.org,
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> colorls has a whole bunch of problems.  However, linuxls with colors
> actually work quite nicely - it defaults to no colors (yeah!), and has
> a '--color=tty' option that will only do color sequences if you
> actually use a tty, making it work without problems in a pipe.

You know, I tried this.  It gave me a whole lot of additional
information in color of the type normally provided "in band" by
"ls -F", and it statted all the files to do it (which a normal
"ls" does not).

Then I went to my Televideo 925, and all the information was lost.
Good thing I didn't use it long enough to become dependent on it.

The problem with color utilities is that if the color is important
to their function, then their function is easily damaged by a lot
of hardware out there.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 11:10:35 1997
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> 	Anyway.. What's so good about graphical installation programs?

1)	Ease of use for people who would otherwise install an MS OS.

2)	Polish.  The code looks more production with a graphical install.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 11:12:44 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705141804.LAA12946@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
To: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se (Mikael Karpberg)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:04:41 -0700 (MST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> > _Again_, the W95 logo.sys file is a 320x400 BMP image.
> 
> So there should be no problem, then? Someone (Terry?) said it was not quite
> a BMP image, though. Maybe just a minor change.

Then someone else pointed at the net, and an AltaVista search using the
keywords "+Windows +Splash" found more documentation than you can shake
a stick at.

The "not quite" is pallette rotation information for color cycle
animation.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 11:17:28 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705141810.LAA12973@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD for sparc?
To: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co (Pedro F. Giffuni)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:10:30 -0700 (MST)
Cc: alexis@NL.net, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <3379F6A1.5145@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> from "Pedro F. Giffuni" at May 14, 97 10:30:09 am
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> I also asked that "stupid" question in the multiplatform list :).
> There is a DEC Alpha port coming, an I guess SPARC will be worked on
> someday, but nothing serious yet.
> Try OpenBSD :(.

Jack Vogel ported FreeBSD 1.x to the SPARC.

The code was never integrated.

Jack Vogel also did the initial SMP work.


Probably he has pieces you could use, assuming he is still on speaking
terms with anyone associated with FreeBSD: Jack.Vogel@eng.sun.com

Note from his address that he is in a better position than most as far
as SPARC documentation goes.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 11:19:39 1997
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Message-Id: <199705141812.LAA12992@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 11:12:52 -0700 (MST)
Cc: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> > >"Everybody!  Out of the gene pool!".
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Isn't this actually a zippy the pinhead quote?

If it is, then it's unintentional; I didn't intend to Plagarize Zippy;
the quotation marks were to distinguish it as a spoken command.

Brian should probaly investigate Zippy before he attributes it to me...


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 11:23:41 1997
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To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Cc: Alexis Yushin <alexis@nl.net>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: FreeBSD for sparc? 
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On Wed, 14 May 1997 10:30:09 -0700 
 "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> wrote:

 > I also asked that "stupid" question in the multiplatform list :).
 > There is a DEC Alpha port coming, an I guess SPARC will be worked on
 > someday, but nothing serious yet.
 > Try OpenBSD :(.

...or NetBSD.  That's where all the SPARC code comes from anyhow.

Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 11:35:45 1997
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From: "Brian N. Handy" <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
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Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
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>> > >"Everybody!  Out of the gene pool!".
>>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Isn't this actually a zippy the pinhead quote?
>
>If it is, then it's unintentional; I didn't intend to Plagarize Zippy;
>the quotation marks were to distinguish it as a spoken command.
>
>Brian should probaly investigate Zippy before he attributes it to me...

Actually, I was more interested in "tectogenetics".  I used to have a lot
of friends in geology, so I'm seeing a whole new field for all my old
buddies who are now hanging out in the Nevada desert. :-)

Brian


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 11:35:48 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:31:58 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
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Jean-Marc Zucconi wrote:
> 
> >>>>> Pedro F Giffuni writes:
> 
>  > Anyway I think Amancio is right; we first have to determine if Thot is
>  > the right editor for our internal documentation. The searching process
> 
> It seems to me that you still confuse the format and the tool. The
> right editor is already there since we have vi :-) Document writers
> are free to use program X oy Y as long as the document format is SGML.
> It does not matter if the C code in /usr/src/* is written with cat, vi
> or emacs.
> 
No, I'm not confusing them. I (perhaps we) would like a WYSIWYG editor
that enforces a standarized format and that we agree is a nice tool. *I*
don't like vi, emacs or those other editors, and I don't wnat to have to
learn SGML to write documentation.
John Fieber made some excellent comments on the difference between the
application and the format. I firmly believe that even if the tool
doesn't exist we will have added benefits by searching for it.

	Pedro.

> Jean-Marc
>  _____________________________________________________________________________
>  Jean-Marc Zucconi       Observatoire de Besancon       F 25010 Besancon cedex
>                    PGP Key: finger jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr
>  =============================================================================

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 13:10:34 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 14:56:43 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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Angel Talamona wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> Would someone tell me where can I find an ISO-8859-1 screen map to
> download? (My spanish keyboard mapping is OK, but terminal output
> doesn't fit...) I'm using a FreeBSD R2.1.
> 
I modified the spanish keymap to work in Latin Keyboards, and sent it as
a PR, but it was never committed. I never had problems with the
screenmap, I left the default.
You might have terminal problems due to the termcap database, which was
updated in version 2.1.5. Eric S. Raymond keeps that database, but I
forgot his address. Try getting a newer version of FreeBSD...

Pedro.

> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Angel Talamona
> actf@sede.unr.edu.ar
> Universidad Nacional de Rosario
> ARGENTINA



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 13:27:17 1997
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb>
Message-Id: <199705142027.NAA02246@hub.freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Bt848 on P55T2P4-P100oc
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:27:00 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.org, multimedia@FreeBSD.org, hackers@FreeBSD.org
In-Reply-To: <199705140112.SAA00941@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at May 13, 97 06:12:46 pm
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Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> Nope this is specifically for video processing and yes we do need such
> a document. You see my P100 can process video to my display adapter
> such as fast as my PPRO 200.

	the document that you need is a subset of a larger document
	that FreeBSD needs.  you need the subset related to 
	video processing.  cool.  why not work on creating hte larger
	document and get the one that you need for free :)

	John_mark Gurney (?)? spoke of a web interfacefor collecting
	this information.   adding a few more fields to the web interface
	creates the larger document.  seems too easy for forego the 
	little eatra work required.
jmb


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 13:30:59 1997
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To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
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"Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> writes:
> For some strange reason I was looking at BSDI's web and I found the
> Multicomputer Operating System fo Unix "MOSIX":
> http://www.cnds.jhu.edu/mirrors/mosix/
> It would be worthwhile to convince them to support FreeBSD, and they are
> probably interested anyway. Has anyone contacted them? (I emailed but I
> think it's aabbath over there).

I don't know the status of MOSIX, but for your information, there is
another multi-computer parallel machine based on FreeBSD, made in
France by a collaboration of different universities.

This low cost/high performance parallel computer, named MPC, is based
on a network of CPU boards running a modified version of FreeBSD (new
kernel services, modifications and additions of new functionnalities
in the VM subsystem, and new drivers for the interconnection
network). The boards are interconnected with a custom interconnection
network of routers, developped at UPMC, each router containing 8
full-duplex 1 GigaBit/s asynchronous serial links.

Infomations available at http://cao-vlsi.ibp.fr/mpc/index.gb.html

Alexandre Fenyo

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 13:35:12 1997
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Subject: Re: Bt848 on P55T2P4-P100oc 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 13:27:00 PDT."
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Fine, just take this up with John-Mark. 

For now , we should proceed forward with our original intent which
is to provide relevant hardware information for the video / multimedia
group.

	Regards,
	Amancio
>From The Desk Of "Jonathan M. Bresler" :
> Amancio Hasty wrote:
> > 
> > Nope this is specifically for video processing and yes we do need such
> > a document. You see my P100 can process video to my display adapter
> > such as fast as my PPRO 200.
> 
> 	the document that you need is a subset of a larger document
> 	that FreeBSD needs.  you need the subset related to 
> 	video processing.  cool.  why not work on creating hte larger
> 	document and get the one that you need for free :)
> 
> 	John_mark Gurney (?)? spoke of a web interfacefor collecting
> 	this information.   adding a few more fields to the web interface
> 	creates the larger document.  seems too easy for forego the 
> 	little eatra work required.
> jmb
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 13:39:19 1997
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Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
To: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com (Brian N. Handy)
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> Actually, I was more interested in "tectogenetics".  I used to have a lot
> of friends in geology, so I'm seeing a whole new field for all my old
> buddies who are now hanging out in the Nevada desert. :-)

It's large scale genetic drift across lines of speciation because
of common evolutionary pressures acting on everybody.

For your friends in the desert, this would be the drift in the
animals that had ancestors who were around back when they lived
on the shores of Lake Bonneville, the decendents of which are
now desert critters.  Of course, it could be an artifact of the
asteroid theory of the dinosaur extinction.  ;-).

The first mention I ever saw was (I think) Theodore Sturgeon (who
was the biologist who came up with the theory of "punctuated
equilibrium"?  It was T.S., right?).


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 13:43:41 1997
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To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 10:11:39 PDT."
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 13:43:40 -0700
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> the right editor for our internal documentation. The searching process
> will be very fruitful if, like I hope, it translates into ports !

I think Amancio is waiting for you to do that part.. ;)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 13:49:34 1997
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send allhelp to bthomas@okeechobee.cube.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 13:49:45 1997
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Alex Fenyo (eowyn) wrote:
> 
> I don't know the status of MOSIX, but for your information, there is
> another multi-computer parallel machine based on FreeBSD, made in
> France by a collaboration of different universities.
> 
The "status" of MOSIX is fully operational under BSD/OS. Some people
have asked me about this: I only know the MOSIX team is now studying a
port of MOSIX to FreeBSD. They seemed to like our difference with other
OS's (namely Linux), and our licensing terms.

I looked a bit at MPC, it seems cool but I didn't like that they use
this  unstandard hardware, while MOSIX uses anything from network cards
to ATM or higher speed cards. I don't think MOSIX will include source
code, and it seems like they will release a limited version for six
computers, but I can live with it :-). (With six boxes, a common
scientific process could take nearly 1/6 of the time on a fast network).

	Pedro.
> 
> Alexandre Fenyo


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 14:47:57 1997
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bthomas wrote:
>send allhelp to bthomas@okeechobee.cube.com

You were right in writing this list for help in this area,
Mr. Thomas. This list is PRESCISELY what you need. Unfortunately,
due to the overwelming demands of wanna be hackers all over
the world we must insist on a charge for the tutorial. Sorry.
But for a low, LOW $20 (US) you can get the 12 Manuals, the
Video Series, the teaching aids (includes a Fully Blown VAX
computer running VMS or Tops/20 (your choice)) and the secret
club card, all for this increadble low price. Send in your
order now!




If I wanted a signature, which I don't, I would use this.
-Tim

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 14:54:28 1997
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From: Steve Passe <smp@csn.net>
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cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty), multimedia@FreeBSD.ORG,
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Subject: Re: Bt848 on P55T2P4-P100oc 
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Hi,

> 	the document that you need is a subset of a larger document
> 	that FreeBSD needs.  you need the subset related to 
> 	video processing.  cool.  why not work on creating hte larger
> 	document and get the one that you need for free :)
> 
> 	John_mark Gurney (?)? spoke of a web interfacefor collecting
> 	this information.   adding a few more fields to the web interface
> 	creates the larger document.  seems too easy for forego the 
> 	little eatra work required.

SMP definately needs this tool.  I was just going to wait till the the
mm specific one was finished then grab & modify it.  If someone wants to
put the effort into a universal tool that would be great!

--
Steve Passe	| powered by 
smp@csn.net	|            Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 15:02:00 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:00:07 -0700
From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
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Here is the situation..

a skeleton of directories and files which must not be removed except
by root, intermixed with files that should be able to be added and
removed by users of a particular group.
           (M) = directory
           [N] = file

(A)----(B)----[C]
     |
     \-(D)

We want non root members of group 'x' to be able to
add files or directories to directories A, B or D, and delete
them again,
however they must not be able to delete A,B,C, or D
non members of group 'x' must only be able to write into D in
the case where D is owned by them. (D represents several
directories with different owners(e.g. home directories))

this seems to be an easy problem, but it turns out that
it is not immediatly solvable using standard semantics.

I would like to suggest one of two changes.

1/ I cannot see a definition of the SUID bit in directories..
possibly extending this to mean "Directory not deletable
except by owner(or root)" might allow me to get 99% of what I need.

2/ alternatively adding a flag "nodelete". noschg is too
severe as I want the goup 'x' members to be able to add and delete
entries to these directories, and "append-only" doesn't work because
I want them to be able to delete any files they added.

I would imagine the "nodelete" flag affecting only the unlink(),
rmdir() and rename() calls.

basically I need to be able to set up a skeleton that cannot be
alterd or removed, but can be added to by non root users.

comments?
fruit?

would it be of general use?
does it break the P.O.L.A?
as an extension, does it break posix or anything?

julian

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 15:05:56 1997
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To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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From: fenyo@email.enst.fr (Alex Fenyo (eowyn))
Date: 15 May 1997 00:04:09 +0200
In-Reply-To: "Pedro F. Giffuni"'s message of Wed, 14 May 1997 15:45:01 -0700
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"Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> writes:
> I looked a bit at MPC, it seems cool but I didn't like that they use
> this  unstandard hardware, while MOSIX uses anything from network cards
> to ATM or higher speed cards. I don't think MOSIX will include source
> code, and it seems like they will release a limited version for six
> computers, but I can live with it :-).

MPC is made to handle hundreds of processors, then it may not be
adapted to the application you want to run !

> (With six boxes, a common
> scientific process could take nearly 1/6 of the time on a fast network).

I think you're very optimistic !!!

Sincerly,
Alexandre Fenyo

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 15:26:35 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 15:33:38 -0700 (PDT)
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Hello All,
When I try to open fvwm and a few other X applications it says that it
can't find the shared library "libXpm.4.10" can't be found. Someone told
me I should download it.  Does anybody know where I could. I've tried
ftp.cdrom.com and ftp.freebsd.org it only has the distribution archives
not the actual files. Could someone give me a URL or FTP address where I
could the the lib file "libXpm.4.1-" ? 
It would be greatly appreciated.
:)



-Deke


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 15:36:22 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:03:15 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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CC: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
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Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> 
> > the right editor for our internal documentation. The searching process
> > will be very fruitful if, like I hope, it translates into ports !
> 
> I think Amancio is waiting for you to do that part.. ;)
> 
>                                         Jordan
And I think you were thinking I was thinking he would do that part
(Gosh, we all think too much) :).
Honestly I would have ported Thot when I first found it if I'd had
Motif.

Anyway I thought analyzing and dropping more ports would be a
"clustering" effort :-).

	Pedro.



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 15:39:13 1997
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To: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>,
        Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>, jkh@time.cdrom.com,
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Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 17:24:10 CDT."
             <Pine.BSF.3.96.970514170338.311w-100000@fallout.campusview.indiana.edu> 
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>From The Desk Of John Fieber :

Whats the fundamental difference between an HTML  editor and a SGML editor?

It looks to me that HTML is a subset of SGML so by way of handling tags
and structure it looks like  a good WYISWYG editor can be accomplished
unless of course SGML brings in complexity such that it breaks the 
algorithms to handle the HTML visualization/edit .

Hope that I make sense,
	Amancio




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 15:41:41 1997
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Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 17:03:15 PDT."
             <337A52C3.9BB@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> 
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What would you like your login name to be in my machine ?

Next excuse?

	Cheers,
	Amancio

>From The Desk Of "Pedro F. Giffuni" :
> Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:
> > 
> > > the right editor for our internal documentation. The searching process
> > > will be very fruitful if, like I hope, it translates into ports !
> > 
> > I think Amancio is waiting for you to do that part.. ;)
> > 
> >                                         Jordan
> And I think you were thinking I was thinking he would do that part
> (Gosh, we all think too much) :).
> Honestly I would have ported Thot when I first found it if I'd had
> Motif.
> 
> Anyway I thought analyzing and dropping more ports would be a
> "clustering" effort :-).
> 
> 	Pedro.
> 
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 15:41:42 1997
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Alex Fenyo (eowyn) wrote:

Sorry, MPC's hardware is not unstandard at all, it's simply
unconventional.

> 
> > (With six boxes, a common
> > scientific process could take nearly 1/6 of the time on a fast network).
> 
> I think you're very optimistic !!!
> 
No, I read some of their technical reports (nice graphs) :-)

Pedro.

> Sincerly,
> Alexandre Fenyo

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 15:43:31 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:24:10 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>, jkh@time.cdrom.com,
        hasty@rah.star-gate.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
In-Reply-To: <337A213E.6375@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
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On Wed, 14 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> No, I'm not confusing them. I (perhaps we) would like a WYSIWYG editor
> that enforces a standarized format and that we agree is a nice tool. *I*
> don't like vi, emacs or those other editors, and I don't wnat to have to
> learn SGML to write documentation.

The problem is that structured documents and WYSIWYG are
conceptually incompatible in enough ways that it is just really
hard to make an editor that does both, and just about impossible
to do both.  The path that most *usable* structure editors take
is providing the user with a list of possible tags that can be
inserted where the cursor is, plus some interface for editing the
attributes.  The details of how this is implemented vary, but
they all do basically the same thing.

You can enhance things by applying some quasi-wysiwyg formatting
to elements (eg headings in a larger font and appropriate
spacing).  Corel WordPerfect does this quite well in my opinion. 
Problems arise with when the structure of the document doesn't
match how things are formatted. For example, if information is
relocated, suppressed or altered in some way during the
formatting process, WYSIWYG is problematic.

SGML is pretty easy to learn--you have start tags, end tags,
attributes and an occasional entity.  The hard part is learning
the particulars of a complex DTD like Docbook.  Good SGML editors
help you out with the latter.  I like to think of them as What
You See Is What You Need (WYSIWYN) editors.  Unfortunately,
outside of the excellent psgml mode for Emacs, the only good SGML
aware editors are commercial and pretty expenive.  

-john


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Hello to all the good people of FreeBSD community.
Apologies up front for cross posting, I felt the
nature of the problem may warrant such a drastic
action. There appears to be a VERY frequently
asked question, an answer for which does not
appear to be in the FAQ (or anywhere else I could
find). The question is: How does one install FreeBSD
on a second hard disk? Sometimes that second hard disk
is a slave drive, sometimes a master, sometimes it's
a zip drive and sometimes ..... etc etc. You get the
picture I'm sure. Could someone who HAS DONE IT BEFORE
or someone who KNOWS THE EXACT STEPS send them to me.
When you type the steps please keep in mind that someone
as dense as me will be reading them, so the clearer they
are (many words) the better.
   I guess I'll try to make an article out of it or
something. Jordan do you think this is a good candidate
for an article? Optimally someone who knows how to do it
would write the article, but if this lil' child-project
is unwanted I'll try and do it. But more importantly
we can add it to the FAQ.

Thanks a lot

Rudy (wishing he had another HD to experiment with)



--------------------------------------------------
Beavis and Butt-head Software Co Inc    | Fone  1-800-555-CHICKs
"Just press any key, dude!!!!"          | Phaks 1-800-555-BUTT
--------------------------------------------------

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 15:55:31 1997
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In article <337A35E7.5656AEC7.kithrup.freebsd.hackers@whistle.com> you write:
>basically I need to be able to set up a skeleton that cannot be
>alterd or removed, but can be added to by non root users.

I don't particularly like it, but, then, I'd rather see ACL's added than
more specialized bits used.

However, I have to ask... would a union filesystem (with a read-only FS as
the skeleton/base) do what you want?

Sean.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 16:36:17 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:35:21 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>,
        Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>, jkh@time.cdrom.com,
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Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
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On Wed, 14 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:

> Whats the fundamental difference between an HTML  editor and a SGML editor?

SHORT VERSION

An HTML editor is typically hardwired for the tags and document
structure that the HTML DTD defines.  An SGML editor can read
*any* DTD to learn about the structure of documents conforming to
that DTD.  

The editing functionality must be driven by the structure defined
in the DTD, not anything hard coded.  Likewise, for quasi-WYSIWYG
visualization the rendering must be driven by a style-sheet
loaded at run-time.

Not having looked carefully at Thot, I have no idea how close it
would be to being a truly general SGML editor.  As I said, the
overall design seems to be *conceptually* compatible with
SGML which is a good thing.  It may fall short on the "G"
dimensions of SGML though.  (G = Generalized)

> It looks to me that HTML is a subset of SGML so by way of handling tags

LONG VERSION

It is more like the relationship between, say, C and awk.  Awk is
implemented using C, it isn't a subset of C.  SGML provides the
world with two basic things: a mechanism for defining markup
languages (the document type definition, or DTD) and standardized
rules for parsing any document marked up with according to an
SGML DTD.  To illustrate, here is an SGML DTD and associated
document:

<!DOCTYPE foo [
<!ELEMENT foo - - (a, b)+>
<!ELEMENT a   - - (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT b   - - (#PCDATA)>
]>
<foo>
<a>A FOO document must contain an A element...</a>
<b>followed by a B element.</b>
<a>and because of the +, the A, B pair may be repeated.</a>
<b>like this!</b>
</foo>

Since the parsing rules are the same regardless of the DTD, you
only have to write an SGML parser once, and it can be reused in
any application that deals with SGML files.

For this example, a good SGML editor would read the DTD part
(between the [ and ]) and know that a FOO must contain an A
followed by a B, and optionally more A and B pairs.  It could
help the author by automatically providing a template of all the
required elements, something like this:

<foo>
<a></a>
<b></b>
</foo>

During editing, an "insert element" command would offer a list of
only syntactically valid element at the point of the cursor. 
Additionally, the DTD can specify that elements have attributes
and a good editor could provide a fill-out form style interface
for setting the attributes.  There are a couple special types of
attributes, ID and IDREF, that are often used for cross
referencing purposes.  A good editor will keep a table of these
handy for the user to consult, or when filling out an IDREF
attribute, a list of valid IDs in the document could be supplied. 

All the information necessary to do this, and more, can be and
should be gleaned from the DTD at runtime.  HTML editors are
almost universally hardwired to the elements defined in the HTML
DTD and, consequently, are useless for other SGML document.  An
SGML editor, on the other hand, can handle any HTML document.
In this sense, calling HTML a subset of SGML does make sense, but
it is still a little misleading about the nature of SGML.

For rendering, a style-sheet associates formatting with the
element start and end tags.  Since any given element may need
different typographical treatment depending on the context (eg. a
<p> inside a <li>, versus a <p> elsewhere) there must be a
mechanism to select formatting rules based not only on the
element, but is relation to other elements in the document.
Cascading stylesheets (lightweight) and DSSSL (heavyweight) are
both good candidates for the stylesheet role. 

-john


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 16:38:13 1997
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To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 17:03:15 PDT."
             <337A52C3.9BB@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> 
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:38:10 -0700
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> Honestly I would have ported Thot when I first found it if I'd had
> Motif.

You can still port it and hand it off to Satoshi for building.
He has an official copy. :)

> Anyway I thought analyzing and dropping more ports would be a
> "clustering" effort :-).

No, it's generally something which is more successfully spearheaded by
a single individual.  Hint hint. :)

					Jordan

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Well the list of tools keeps growing . Naturally, it does not support
sgml but Tycho by itself is a useful tool. Tcl/tk proponents will be
happy to know that Tycho is written in Incr Tcl. If you managed to 
download Tycho and get it going  check out the Class Diagram for Tycho .

	Enjoy,
	Amancio


http://ptolemy.eecs.berkeley.edu/tycho/Tycho.html

"Tycho is an object-oriented syntax manager with an underlying heterogeneous technical
rationale. It provides a number of editors and graphical widgets in an extensible, reusable
framework. The editors for textual syntaxes are modeled after emacs in the sense the emacs key
bindings are used when possible. However, they make more extensive use of menus, windows,
and dialogs than emacs. Also, the intent is that visual editors and visualization tools will be fully
integrated, something that would be difficult to accomplish with emacs in its current form. Editors
for visual syntaxes will be more diverse. The system documentation is integrated, using a
hypertext system compatible with the worldwide web. Tycho was originally conceived for use.."


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 16:42:48 1997
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cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 15:41:17 PDT."
             <199705142241.PAA21579@rah.star-gate.com> 
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 16:42:49 -0700
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> What would you like your login name to be in my machine ?
> 
> Next excuse?

There ya go!  I await Pedro's port with eagerness - it'll save all of
us having to figure out the twisty mechanations of Thot's build
process for ourselves. :-)

					Jordan

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        Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
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> the particulars of a complex DTD like Docbook.  Good SGML editors
> help you out with the latter.  I like to think of them as What
> You See Is What You Need (WYSIWYN) editors.  Unfortunately,

I've always preferred WYSIWYS (whizzy-whiz) editors like vi, myself -
What You See Is What You See. ;-)

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 17:02:33 1997
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Alex Fenyo (eowyn) wrote:
> 
Wait, of course there will be an asymptotical limit. I made an objective
measurement (with a ruler :-) ): 6 processors would be  a bit more than
4.5 times faster on a really fast network. How many times faster would
an SMP box be ?

        Pedro
> 
> I think you're very optimistic !!!
> 
> Sincerly,
> Alexandre Fenyo

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 17:06:54 1997
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Subject: Anyone on the list with Matrox Millenium docs?
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I just bought a Matrox Millenium and I am interested in reordering 
the pixel order from RGB to RGB

	Tnks,
	Amancio



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 17:30:17 1997
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To: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
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        Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>, jkh@time.cdrom.com,
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Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 18:35:21 CDT."
             <Pine.BSF.3.96.970514174011.311x-100000@fallout.campusview.indiana.edu> 
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First off , this is a cool session 8)


when you get a chance, check out http://rah.star-gate.com/languages.html
it discusses the theory of their meta language thingy.

Just fire off an e-mail to the amaya asking them about how difficult
will it be for Thot to support SGML.


	Have fun,
	Amancio


>From The Desk Of John Fieber :
> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> > Whats the fundamental difference between an HTML  editor and a SGML editor?
> 
> SHORT VERSION
> 
> An HTML editor is typically hardwired for the tags and document
> structure that the HTML DTD defines.  An SGML editor can read
> *any* DTD to learn about the structure of documents conforming to
> that DTD.  
> 
> The editing functionality must be driven by the structure defined
> in the DTD, not anything hard coded.  Likewise, for quasi-WYSIWYG
> visualization the rendering must be driven by a style-sheet
> loaded at run-time.
> 
> Not having looked carefully at Thot, I have no idea how close it
> would be to being a truly general SGML editor.  As I said, the
> overall design seems to be *conceptually* compatible with
> SGML which is a good thing.  It may fall short on the "G"
> dimensions of SGML though.  (G = Generalized)
> 
> > It looks to me that HTML is a subset of SGML so by way of handling tags
> 
> LONG VERSION
> 
> It is more like the relationship between, say, C and awk.  Awk is
> implemented using C, it isn't a subset of C.  SGML provides the
> world with two basic things: a mechanism for defining markup
> languages (the document type definition, or DTD) and standardized
> rules for parsing any document marked up with according to an
> SGML DTD.  To illustrate, here is an SGML DTD and associated
> document:
> 
> <!DOCTYPE foo [
> <!ELEMENT foo - - (a, b)+>
> <!ELEMENT a   - - (#PCDATA)>
> <!ELEMENT b   - - (#PCDATA)>
> ]>
> <foo>
> <a>A FOO document must contain an A element...</a>
> <b>followed by a B element.</b>
> <a>and because of the +, the A, B pair may be repeated.</a>
> <b>like this!</b>
> </foo>
> 
> Since the parsing rules are the same regardless of the DTD, you
> only have to write an SGML parser once, and it can be reused in
> any application that deals with SGML files.
> 
> For this example, a good SGML editor would read the DTD part
> (between the [ and ]) and know that a FOO must contain an A
> followed by a B, and optionally more A and B pairs.  It could
> help the author by automatically providing a template of all the
> required elements, something like this:
> 
> <foo>
> <a></a>
> <b></b>
> </foo>
> 
> During editing, an "insert element" command would offer a list of
> only syntactically valid element at the point of the cursor. 
> Additionally, the DTD can specify that elements have attributes
> and a good editor could provide a fill-out form style interface
> for setting the attributes.  There are a couple special types of
> attributes, ID and IDREF, that are often used for cross
> referencing purposes.  A good editor will keep a table of these
> handy for the user to consult, or when filling out an IDREF
> attribute, a list of valid IDs in the document could be supplied. 
> 
> All the information necessary to do this, and more, can be and
> should be gleaned from the DTD at runtime.  HTML editors are
> almost universally hardwired to the elements defined in the HTML
> DTD and, consequently, are useless for other SGML document.  An
> SGML editor, on the other hand, can handle any HTML document.
> In this sense, calling HTML a subset of SGML does make sense, but
> it is still a little misleading about the nature of SGML.
> 
> For rendering, a style-sheet associates formatting with the
> element start and end tags.  Since any given element may need
> different typographical treatment depending on the context (eg. a
> <p> inside a <li>, versus a <p> elsewhere) there must be a
> mechanism to select formatting rules based not only on the
> element, but is relation to other elements in the document.
> Cascading stylesheets (lightweight) and DSSSL (heavyweight) are
> both good candidates for the stylesheet role. 
> 
> -john
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 17:37:25 1997
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From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Anyone on the list with Matrox Millenium docs?
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this reordering can easily be done by simpl inserting the card into your 
machine and using it.

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:

> 
> 
> I just bought a Matrox Millenium and I am interested in reordering 
> the pixel order from RGB to RGB
> 
> 	Tnks,
> 	Amancio
> 
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 17:37:54 1997
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Subject: Re: Anyone on the list with Matrox Millenium docs? 
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Oops,
I meant BGR to RGB.

	Amancio

>From The Desk Of Amancio Hasty :
> 
> 
> I just bought a Matrox Millenium and I am interested in reordering 
> the pixel order from RGB to RGB
> 
> 	Tnks,
> 	Amancio
> 
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 17:41:18 1997
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Subject: Re: RFC.. Proposal.. file flag No-delete
To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:35:02 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> a skeleton of directories and files which must not be removed except
> by root, intermixed with files that should be able to be added and
> removed by users of a particular group.
>            (M) = directory
>            [N] = file
> 
> (A)----(B)----[C]
>      |
>      \-(D)
> 
> We want non root members of group 'x' to be able to
> add files or directories to directories A, B or D, and delete
> them again,
> however they must not be able to delete A,B,C, or D
> non members of group 'x' must only be able to write into D in
> the case where D is owned by them. (D represents several
> directories with different owners(e.g. home directories))
> 
> this seems to be an easy problem, but it turns out that
> it is not immediatly solvable using standard semantics.

Why won't this work:

chown root.x a a/b
chmod 1770 a a/b
chown user.x a/d[n]
chmod 1750 a/d[n]

?


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 17:49:51 1997
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Message-Id: <199705150040.RAA13777@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 17:40:50 -0700 (MST)
Cc: jfieber@indiana.edu, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
        jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> Whats the fundamental difference between an HTML  editor and a SGML editor?
> 
> It looks to me that HTML is a subset of SGML so by way of handling tags
> and structure it looks like  a good WYISWYG editor can be accomplished
> unless of course SGML brings in complexity such that it breaks the 
> algorithms to handle the HTML visualization/edit .

HTML is a DT defined by an SGML DTD.

Once again, in English:

	Hypertext Markup Language is a Document Type defined by
	a Simple Graphic Markup Language Document Type Description

That is, a general SGML editor can edit any document format for
which it has a DTD.

You could define a DTD for RTF, and edit RTF files.

You could define a DTD for WordPerfect files, and edit WordPerfect
files.

You could define a DTD for Word for Windows (if you could puzzle out
the file format), and edit MS Word files.

This is the beauty (and complexity) of a working SGML editor.

SGML is a definition language for specification of page definition
languages.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 17:56:27 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 19:55:13 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
        jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr, jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
In-Reply-To: <199705150040.RAA13777@phaeton.artisoft.com>
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On Wed, 14 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:

> 	Hypertext Markup Language is a Document Type defined by
> 	a Simple Graphic Markup Language Document Type Description
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Standard Generalized Markup Language actually.  ISO 8879:1986 for
standards buffs.  :)

> You could define a DTD for RTF, and edit RTF files.
> 
> You could define a DTD for WordPerfect files, and edit WordPerfect
> files.
> 
> You could define a DTD for Word for Windows (if you could puzzle out
> the file format), and edit MS Word files.

In practice, you couldn't make a DTD to edit these files in their
native format, but you could write a DTD that faithfully
represents every minute detail such that these formats could be
round-trip converted through SGML without any loss of data or
markup in the process.  That is something you cannot say about
using, say, a WordPerfect file in MS Word.

-john


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 18:06:26 1997
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From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Anyone on the list with Matrox Millenium docs? 
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um, why not just get a 5 coax vgq->coax connector and switch around the 
colors?

On Wed, 14 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:

> Oops,
> I meant BGR to RGB.
> 
> 	Amancio
> 
> >From The Desk Of Amancio Hasty :
> > 
> > 
> > I just bought a Matrox Millenium and I am interested in reordering 
> > the pixel order from RGB to RGB
> > 
> > 	Tnks,
> > 	Amancio
> > 
> > 
> 
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 18:06:29 1997
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Subject: Re: Anyone on the list with Matrox Millenium docs? 
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Do you have the low level graphics info for the Matrox Millenium?

	Tnks,
	Amancio

>From The Desk Of Ben Black :
> this reordering can easily be done by simpl inserting the card into your 
> machine and using it.
> 
> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > I just bought a Matrox Millenium and I am interested in reordering 
> > the pixel order from RGB to RGB
> > 
> > 	Tnks,
> > 	Amancio
> > 
> > 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 18:08:05 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 20:07:18 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>,
        Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>, jkh@time.cdrom.com,
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Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
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On Wed, 14 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:

> when you get a chance, check out http://rah.star-gate.com/languages.html
> it discusses the theory of their meta language thingy.

Hm...  I'm not sure what to think of this.  They seem to have
expended a great deal of effort to re-invent SGML.  The S
language implements most SGML concepts, but in an incompatible
form with no obvious advantage over SGML.  Similarly the P and T
languages look to be an implementation of the concepts in DSSSL,
although in a more limited fashion.

So, the philosophy of Thot is more or less the same as SGML and
DSSSL almost exactly, but with an independent implementation. 
DSSSL is quite new (1996), but SGML has been around over a decade
so I find this re-inventing of the wheel very puzzling and
somewhat sad. 

I'll definately have to take a closer look at the code itself
when I get a chance.

-john


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 18:10:25 1997
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To: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Anyone on the list with Matrox Millenium docs? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 21:05:39 EDT."
             <Pine.LNX.3.91.970514210509.12354J-100000@zen.cypher.net> 
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From: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Cause I have a very specific need for RGB like dumping raw video
to the display frame buffer.

	Amancio	

>From The Desk Of Ben Black :
> um, why not just get a 5 coax vgq->coax connector and switch around the 
> colors?
> 
> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> > Oops,
> > I meant BGR to RGB.
> > 
> > 	Amancio
> > 
> > >From The Desk Of Amancio Hasty :
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I just bought a Matrox Millenium and I am interested in reordering 
> > > the pixel order from RGB to RGB
> > > 
> > > 	Tnks,
> > > 	Amancio
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 18:20:43 1997
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To: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>,
        Jean-Marc Zucconi <jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr>, jkh@time.cdrom.com,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 20:07:18 CDT."
             <Pine.BSF.3.96.970514195519.311z-100000@fallout.campusview.indiana.edu> 
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Well the nature of their difference lies in  the need to support 
active documents . 

Just post to their mailing list . They seem to be a candid group.

http://www.w3.org/pub/WWW/Amaya/

A few of the key members from the Thot group joined the W3 consortium
and it looks like everyone stands a chance to benefit from the
exchange.

I would start by simply repeating what you posted which addresses
the heart of the issue. 

	Got Sgml 8) (twisted joke on the Milk industries tv AD logo
                     Got Milk!)
	Amancio
>From The Desk Of John Fieber :
> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> > when you get a chance, check out http://rah.star-gate.com/languages.html
> > it discusses the theory of their meta language thingy.
> 
> Hm...  I'm not sure what to think of this.  They seem to have
> expended a great deal of effort to re-invent SGML.  The S
> language implements most SGML concepts, but in an incompatible
> form with no obvious advantage over SGML.  Similarly the P and T
> languages look to be an implementation of the concepts in DSSSL,
> although in a more limited fashion.
> 
> So, the philosophy of Thot is more or less the same as SGML and
> DSSSL almost exactly, but with an independent implementation. 
> DSSSL is quite new (1996), but SGML has been around over a decade
> so I find this re-inventing of the wheel very puzzling and
> somewhat sad. 
> 
> I'll definately have to take a closer look at the code itself
> when I get a chance.
> 
> -john
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 18:24:11 1997
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> >            (M) = directory
> >            [N] = file
> >
> > (A)----(B)----[C]
> >      |
> >      \-(D)
> >
> > We want non root members of group 'x' to be able to
> > add files or directories to directories A, B or D, and delete
> > them again,
[...] rest of requirement deleted..

> 
> Why won't this work:
> 
> chown root.x a a/b
> chmod 1770 a a/b
> chown user.x a/d[n]
> chmod 1750 a/d[n]
> 

because if userA (in group x) writes a file in B,
userB (also in group x) cannot remove it.
we thought of this..

> ?
> 
>                                         Terry Lambert
>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 19:06:03 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 02:43:49 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Joachim Kuebart <joki@kuebart.stuttgart.netsurf.de>
To: bthomas@cube.okeechobee.com
Subject: RE: need tutorial to become elite
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org,
        "Okeechobee Co Prop. Office" <bthomas@cube.okeechobee.com>
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whassthizzz?

On 15-May-97 at 09:49:08 Okeechobee Co Prop. Office wrote:
>send allhelp to bthomas@okeechobee.cube.com

cu Jo

---------------------------------------------------------------------
FreeBSD - top breeders recommend it          <http://www.freebsd.org>
Joachim Kuebart                                    <joa@delos.lf.net>
Tel: +49 711 653706                        <joa@stuttgart.netsurf.de>
Germany                           <joki@kuebart.stuttgart.netsurf.de>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 19:06:19 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 02:42:14 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Joachim Kuebart <joki@kuebart.stuttgart.netsurf.de>
To: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
Subject: Re: FreeBSD equivalent to masquerading
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Hi!

natd did the job! Thank you...

On 14-May-97 at 06:35:37 Daniel O'Callaghan wrote:
>
>
>On Wed, 14 May 1997, Joachim Kuebart wrote:
>
>> Is there no way to connect my 192.168.1.0 subnet to the internet
over my
>> _one_ static IP from my ISP using a program from the ports?
>> If there is a way, which is it?
>
>Several ways:
>
>1. If you are dialing up using /usr/sbin/ppp, add -alias to the ppp 
>startup flags.
>2. If you are using 2.2, build a kernel with IPFIREWALL, IPDIVERT
options 
>and use natd (now in the ports collection)
>3. Install ipfilter and use its nat features.
>
>Danny

cu Jo

---------------------------------------------------------------------
FreeBSD - top breeders recommend it          <http://www.freebsd.org>
Joachim Kuebart                                    <joa@delos.lf.net>
Tel: +49 711 653706                        <joa@stuttgart.netsurf.de>
Germany                           <joki@kuebart.stuttgart.netsurf.de>

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 19:16:30 1997
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Message-Id: <199705150216.LAA29932@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Anyone on the list with Matrox Millenium docs?
In-Reply-To: <199705150037.RAA22837@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 14, 97 05:37:51 pm"
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:46:13 +0930 (CST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying:
> Oops,
> I meant BGR to RGB.
> 
> 	Amancio
> 
> >From The Desk Of Amancio Hasty :
> > 
> > 
> > I just bought a Matrox Millenium and I am interested in reordering 
> > the pixel order from RGB to RGB

Cut your monitor cable and swap the B and R signals.

> > 	Tnks,
> > 	Amancio
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 


-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 19:52:31 1997
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Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 22:52:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Paul Sandys <myj@nyct.net>
To: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: RFC.. Proposal.. file flag No-delete
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On Wed, 14 May 1997, Julian Elischer wrote:

> Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:07:06 -0700
> From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
> To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
> Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
> Subject: Re: RFC.. Proposal.. file flag No-delete
> 
> > >            (M) = directory
> > >            [N] = file
> > >
> > > (A)----(B)----[C]
> > >      |
> > >      \-(D)
> > >
> > > We want non root members of group 'x' to be able to
> > > add files or directories to directories A, B or D, and delete
> > > them again,
> [...] rest of requirement deleted..
> 
> > 
> > Why won't this work:
> > 
> > chown root.x a a/b
> > chmod 1770 a a/b
> > chown user.x a/d[n]
> > chmod 1750 a/d[n]
> > 
> 
> because if userA (in group x) writes a file in B,
> userB (also in group x) cannot remove it.
> we thought of this..

What about creating SGID rm to "x" ? (never tried it thoug)

cp rm rmx
chown root.x rmx
chmod 2750 rmx


> 
> > ?
> > 
> >                                         Terry Lambert
> >
> 

P.

<-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_->
< myj@nyct.net   Paul Sandys   |   New York Connect   http://www.nyct.net >
< network operations manager   |   Total Solution provider                >
<------------------------------------------------------------------------->
<         " BRINGING NEW YORK THE INTERNET SERVICES IT DESERVES "         >
<-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_->


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 19:54:11 1997
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Message-ID: <337A9618.4C98@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 21:50:38 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
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Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
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Ugh, I'm starting to get a headache,... from Thot's mailing archive it
seems like there is a Java extension to Thot included in the
distribution.
Also it seems like someone did build a previous version with Lesstif.
SGML stuff we could (in theory) "add":
There's this site that even keeps a CVS tree:
http://web.inter.NL.net/users/C.deGroot/sgmltools/
I found this site with Tcl tools for SGML:
http://www.art.com/cost/
An object oriented toolkit:
http://www.jclark.com/sp/index.htm
And I think I saw more somewhere else....
How far should we go on this ?

	Pedro.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 20:39:32 1997
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From: "Charles A. Peters" <charlespeters@tecpro.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.org
Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 23:43:41 +0000
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Subject: FreeBSD 2.1.5 August 1996 - Server Installation
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I will be setting up a web / ftp / mail server, and I am planning to 
use FreeBSD 2.1.5.  I am wondering how stable this version is and if 
there are any special problems that I may encounter.

I am new to FreeBSD, but I have successfull installed the software, 
and have been using the server as a learning tool.  I have also been 
subscribed to the various FreeBSD mailing list for several months as 
an observer.

I have about 10 years of Dos/Windows/Novell experience, and I am not 
intimidated with FreeBSD.  Does anyone have any suggestions about 
good reference materials for administration.

Any suggestions would be deeply appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Charles


Charles A. Peters

charlespeters@tecpro.com
http://www.tecpro.com/

864-255-6600 Message Center

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 20:44:40 1997
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To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 21:50:38 PDT."
             <337A9618.4C98@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> 
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Till we end up with a WYSIWYG tool which we can use :
sgml, HTML, and of course typical documents that a user may use.

	Regards,
	Amancio

>From The Desk Of "Pedro F. Giffuni" :
> Ugh, I'm starting to get a headache,... from Thot's mailing archive it
> seems like there is a Java extension to Thot included in the
> distribution.

Not a problem they use kaffe and it compiles right up on FreeBSD .
Besides kaffe was developed on a FreeBSD box.

> Also it seems like someone did build a previous version with Lesstif.

Worth investigating bear in mind that Lesstif has been developed for 
a while ....

> SGML stuff we could (in theory) "add":
> There's this site that even keeps a CVS tree:
> http://web.inter.NL.net/users/C.deGroot/sgmltools/
> I found this site with Tcl tools for SGML:
> http://www.art.com/cost/

more stuff to look into 8)

> An object oriented toolkit:
> http://www.jclark.com/sp/index.htm

I guess James Clark is the top gun in the sgml word. I compiled
jade over here with no problem and yet I have to go over the
distribution to see if I can interface it to doc, thot, whatever
visual tool.

> And I think I saw more somewhere else....
> How far should we go on this ?

thats the beauty there is lots of stuff so I think that we are not
that far off from getting whatever editor we want .

So lets build a web page with related links .

	Cheers,
	Amancio



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 20:48:32 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Anyone on the list with Matrox Millenium docs? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 May 1997 11:46:13 +0930."
             <199705150216.LAA29932@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> 
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Okay, I am interested in using my Bt848 for live video on my screen.

With fxtv I can dump raw video to the display frame buffer for 
a very relaxing couch "lizard" effect.

The bt848 can pump out bgr however only in 24bit mode. The Matrox 
X server does only 32bit alpha G B R.

	Cheers,
	Amancio

>From The Desk Of Michael Smith :
> Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying:
> > Oops,
> > I meant BGR to RGB.
> > 
> > 	Amancio
> > 
> > >From The Desk Of Amancio Hasty :
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I just bought a Matrox Millenium and I am interested in reordering 
> > > the pixel order from RGB to RGB
> 
> Cut your monitor cable and swap the B and R signals.
> 
> > > 	Tnks,
> > > 	Amancio
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
> ]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
> ]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
> ]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
> ]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 21:20:56 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199705150420.NAA01549@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Anyone on the list with Matrox Millenium docs?
In-Reply-To: <199705150348.UAA23875@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 14, 97 08:48:25 pm"
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:50:26 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying:
> Okay, I am interested in using my Bt848 for live video on my screen.

Fund me and I will happily produce a matrix translation ASIC that does
the transform for you 8)

> With fxtv I can dump raw video to the display frame buffer for 
> a very relaxing couch "lizard" effect.

Ah, nice toy 8)

> The bt848 can pump out bgr however only in 24bit mode. The Matrox 
> X server does only 32bit alpha G B R.

Hmm, either have a chat to our friends at Xi, as AccelX does native
24bpp on the MGA-220 (requires patch to their setup program, be
aware), or perhaps pester Matrox directly for hardware data.

I'm kinda surprised that the Bt848 doesn't have a programmable output 
format though; how do you do "live" video into a palette-mapped or
packed (eg 5-6-6/5-5-6) buffer?

> 	Amancio

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 22:07:52 1997
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To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Anyone on the list with Matrox Millenium docs? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 May 1997 13:50:26 +0930."
             <199705150420.NAA01549@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> 
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there oh you where saying . I see ..

Well, I just finished watching star trek: voyager at 640x480 32bits with my
 S3 968 Picture is not bad at all 8)

Tnks Michael for your kind offer . I suspect that the Millenium has
a silly register which we can set so we can achieved the pixel order
that I want.


>From The Desk Of Michael Smith :
> Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying:
> > Okay, I am interested in using my Bt848 for live video on my screen.
> 
> Fund me and I will happily produce a matrix translation ASIC that does
> the transform for you 8)
> 
> > With fxtv I can dump raw video to the display frame buffer for 
> > a very relaxing couch "lizard" effect.
> 
> Ah, nice toy 8)

Yes, Indeed. My Wincast/TV has a tuner and dbx stereo decoding so sound
is good and the tuner is a nice future -- you know for surfing the TV  ...


> > The bt848 can pump out bgr however only in 24bit mode. The Matrox 
> > X server does only 32bit alpha G B R.
> 
> Hmm, either have a chat to our friends at Xi, as AccelX does native
> 24bpp on the MGA-220 (requires patch to their setup program, be
> aware), or perhaps pester Matrox directly for hardware data.
> 
> I'm kinda surprised that the Bt848 doesn't have a programmable output 
> format though; how do you do "live" video into a palette-mapped or
> packed (eg 5-6-6/5-5-6) buffer?

I don't do pallete stuff . The bt848 offers multiple video formats .
If you want to know more about the Great land of Bt848 :
http://freebsd.org/~fsmp/HomeAuto/Bt848.html
http://www.brooktree.com/pdf/graphics/DATASHTS/l848_b.pdf

And last but not least you can check out the Bt848 driver and fxtv.

	Regards,
	Amancio





From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 22:14:37 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199705150514.OAA02239@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Anyone on the list with Matrox Millenium docs?
In-Reply-To: <199705150507.WAA24353@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 14, 97 10:07:49 pm"
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:44:27 +0930 (CST)
Cc: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Amancio Hasty stands accused of saying:
> 
> Well, I just finished watching star trek: voyager at 640x480 32bits with my
>  S3 968 Picture is not bad at all 8)

I have a tuner card that offers similar results, only I have to work out
how to power it outside the PC now.  Shouldn't be hard 8)

> Tnks Michael for your kind offer . I suspect that the Millenium has
> a silly register which we can set so we can achieved the pixel order
> that I want.

Hmm, hopefully.  The offer was the least I could do 8)

> Yes, Indeed. My Wincast/TV has a tuner and dbx stereo decoding so sound
> is good and the tuner is a nice future -- you know for surfing the TV  ...

No, I don't know.  We only have 5 channels here, and only 1.5 of them
are worth watching, so it makes the "no, there's nothing on TV" process
a little quicker.

> > I'm kinda surprised that the Bt848 doesn't have a programmable output 
> > format though; how do you do "live" video into a palette-mapped or
> > packed (eg 5-6-6/5-5-6) buffer?
> 
> I don't do pallete stuff . 

I know you probably don't, but are you saying that the 848 is only capable
of doing direct-to-video work in RGB order?  Odd.  *shrug*

> And last but not least you can check out the Bt848 driver and fxtv.

Love to.  Just after I get one.  For my new SMP machine.  *sigh*

> 	Amancio

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Wed May 14 22:35:46 1997
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From: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Sio tty overflow cause found
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I've been running XInside's server for quite a while, since it seemed to
do a better job of handling the Java stuff on my box.  However, it
corrupts memory all over the place and locks up my computer doing 16/24
bit stuff, so I reverted back to XFree86 last night.

Ever since going back, I've had *tons* of sio overflow errors, at the
strangest times.  I'm not even near the computer when I get them, but
given that the applications are *exactly* the same as before, and I
never had problems before I'm almost 100% sure it's gotta be XFree86
that's causing them.

However, I do note that my system seems to be more 'responsive' with the
XFree86 server than with the Xi server, possibly due to memory use.  I
only have 16MB on my 486/66 (it's the 'original' FreeBSD box), and given
that my boxes at work are much more capable this box has becomea a
glorified X-terminal.



Nate

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 00:21:04 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:18:32 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: need tutorial to become elite
References: <337ADC14.4FC@okeechobee.com> <XFMail.970515040558.joki@jocki.domestic.de>
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As Joachim Kuebart wrote:

> whassthizzz?
> 
> On 15-May-97 at 09:49:08 Okeechobee Co Prop. Office wrote:
> >send allhelp to bthomas@okeechobee.cube.com

Someone should probably send him the handbook. :-)

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 00:34:54 1997
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Subject: Make world RELENG_2_2 Thursday May 15 -- problem!
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Hi

Yesterday I did the make world thing on the RELENG_2_2 branch cvsupped 15 May.
Now everything seems to be linked with libutil.so.2.1 instead of the new
libutil.so.2.2 !
Thankfully, we use the secure shell.. because telnet isn't possible.
(I just *wish* I hadn't disabled root login with it..... grumble!)
login.conf login classes are very cool.. but I just wish it didn't mess up the
system... 8(

Trying to su:
dot:/usr/lib> su
(null): warning: /usr/lib/libutil.so.2.1: minor version 1 older than expected 2, using it anyway
(null): Undefined symbol "_login_getpwclass" called from su:su at 0x312c

dot:/usr/bin> ldd su
su:
(null): warning: /usr/lib/libutil.so.2.1: minor version 1 older than expected 2, using it anyway
        -lutil.2 => /usr/lib/libutil.so.2.1 (0x801c000)
        -lskey.2 => /usr/lib/libskey.so.2.0 (0x801e000)
        -lcrypt.2 => /usr/lib/libcrypt.so.2.0 (0x8024000)
        -lc.3 => /usr/lib/libc.so.3.0 (0x8027000)

Trying to login with telnet:
develing:~> telnet twiddle.com
Trying 194.151.13.121...
Connected to twiddle.com.
Escape character is '^]'.
(null): warning: /usr/lib/libutil.so.2.1: minor version 1 older than expected 2, using it anyway

FreeBSD (dot.twiddle.com) (ttyp1)

(null): warning: /usr/lib/libutil.so.2.1: minor version 1 older than expected 2, using it anyway
(null): Undefined symbol "_login_getclass" called from login:login at 0x6234
Connection closed by foreign host.

*joy* 8(

Now my question is: "how can I possibly adress this problem??"
This is a remote machine.. and I hope there is no need for me to actually need
to go where it resides.. it's a lonnngggg trip.

Plz... any suggestions apart from go there and boot it single user are greatly
appreciated!!

*hellllll*p 8-)


Anxious for your replies,

-Jeroen Hogeveen.
 v942429@si.hhs.nl
 jh@twiddle.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 00:50:56 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:29:19 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: actf@tlon.ieee.org.ar (Angel Talamona)
Subject: Re: looking for a screen map
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--X9omlKvxHasTruz=

As Angel Talamona wrote:

> Would someone tell me where can I find an ISO-8859-1 screen map to 
> download?

More recent versions of FreeBSD do have a screenmap.  Although, if you
have a VGA, you should probably download an iso-8859-1 font instead;
i've only hacked the screenmap for my scratchbox that has a MDA screen
where you can't download fonts.

Screenmap MIME-appended.

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

--X9omlKvxHasTruz=
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=iso-8859-1_to_cp437

/*
 * Copyright (C) 1996 Joerg Wunsch, Dresden.
 *
 * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without
 * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions
 * are met:
 * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright
 *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.
 * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
 *    notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the
 *    documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.
 *
 * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE AUTHOR ``AS IS'' AND
 * ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE
 * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE
 * ARE DISCLAIMED.  IN NO EVENT SHALL THE REGENTS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE
 * FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL
 * DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS
 * OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)
 * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT
 * LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY
 * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF
 * SUCH DAMAGE.
 */

scrmap_t scrmap = {
 0x00, 0x01, 0x02, 0x03, 0x04, 0x05, 0x06, 0x07,
 0x08, 0x09, 0x0a, 0x0b, 0x0c, 0x0d, 0x0e, 0x0f, 
 0x10, 0x11, 0x12, 0x13, 0x14, 0x15, 0x16, 0x17,
 0x18, 0x19, 0x1a, 0x1b, 0x1c, 0x1d, 0x1e, 0x1f,
 0x20, 0x21, 0x22, 0x23, 0x24, 0x25, 0x26, 0x27,
 0x28, 0x29, 0x2a, 0x2b, 0x2c, 0x2d, 0x2e, 0x2f,
 0x30, 0x31, 0x32, 0x33, 0x34, 0x35, 0x36, 0x37,
 0x38, 0x39, 0x3a, 0x3b, 0x3c, 0x3d, 0x3e, 0x3f,
 0x40, 0x41, 0x42, 0x43, 0x44, 0x45, 0x46, 0x47, 
 0x48, 0x49, 0x4a, 0x4b, 0x4c, 0x4d, 0x4e, 0x4f,
 0x50, 0x51, 0x52, 0x53, 0x54, 0x55, 0x56, 0x57,
 0x58, 0x59, 0x5a, 0x5b, 0x5c, 0x5d, 0x5e, 0x5f,
 0x60, 0x61, 0x62, 0x63, 0x64, 0x65, 0x66, 0x67,
 0x68, 0x69, 0x6a, 0x6b, 0x6c, 0x6d, 0x6e, 0x6f,
 0x70, 0x71, 0x72, 0x73, 0x74, 0x75, 0x76, 0x77,
 0x78, 0x79, 0x7a, 0x7b, 0x7c, 0x7d, 0x7e, 0x7f,
 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04,
 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04,
 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04,
 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04, 0x04,
 0x20, 0xad, 0x9b, 0x9c, 0x04, 0x9d, 0x7c, 0x04,
 0x22, 0x43, 0x61, 0xae, 0x7e, 0x04, 0x52, 0x04,
 0xf8, 0xf1, 0xfd, 0x33, 0x27, 0xe6, 0x04, 0xfa,
 0x2c, 0x31, 0x6f, 0xaf, 0xac, 0xab, 0x04, 0xa8,
 0x41, 0x41, 0x41, 0x41, 0x8e, 0x8f, 0x92, 0x80,
 0x45, 0x90, 0x45, 0x45, 0x49, 0x49, 0x49, 0x49,
 0x81, 0xa5, 0x4f, 0x4f, 0x4f, 0x4f, 0x99, 0x4f,
 0x4f, 0x55, 0x55, 0x55, 0x9a, 0x59, 0x50, 0xe1,
 0x44, 0xa0, 0x83, 0x61, 0x84, 0x86, 0x91, 0x87,
 0x8a, 0x82, 0x88, 0x89, 0x8d, 0xa1, 0x8c, 0x8b,
 0x64, 0xa4, 0x95, 0xa2, 0x93, 0x6f, 0x94, 0x6f,
 0x6f, 0x97, 0xa3, 0x96, 0x81, 0x79, 0x70, 0x98
};  

--X9omlKvxHasTruz=--

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 00:55:27 1997
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From: Andrew Stesin <stesin@gu.net>
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Yes, I did a whlie ago (HP Netserver LC, 486 2/66).
Whatever was written in the FAQ was 100% truth and worked. :)
BUT: FAQ refers to 486+EISA based machines -> not your case.

What you do probably need is the patch by Stefan Esser and David
Greenman, which helped me on an Intel XXpress
box a while ago -- that's because you do have a Pentium+PCI machine
with two PCI busses (despite of what BSD/OS tells you), and both aic's are on
the second one. Please check list archives or e-mail
me for working and tested patch for RELENG_2_2.

There is also a probablility that this patch was already commited
to RELENG_2_2 mainstream source, but I'm not sure.

I'm also not sure that HP's Pentium server is the same architecture
as Intel's one, so no warranty. :)

Best regards,
Andrew Stesin

nic-hdl: ST73-RIPE



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 02:27:43 1997
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In-Reply-To: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>  of Wed, 14 
 May 97 16:42:49 PDT.
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Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
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jkh@time.cdrom.com writes:
> > What would you like your login name to be in my machine ?
> > 
> > Next excuse?
> 
> There ya go!  I await Pedro's port with eagerness - it'll save all of
> us having to figure out the twisty mechanations of Thot's build
> process for ourselves. :-)
> 

actually it builds quite easily if you use the Makefile.orig and
config.h from Linux.

I made it yesterday with lesstif. It sort of works, but lesstif
is still buggy enough that lots of actions result in a core dump,
primarily in the font handling code :(

---
Gary Jennejohn				(work) gjennejohn@frt.dec.com
					(home) Gary.Jennejohn@munich.netsurf.de
					(play) gj@freebsd.org



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 02:47:07 1997
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Subject: login.conf: libutil
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, questions@FreeBSD.ORG
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Hi,

Regarding the last message I sent, about the RELENG_2_2 make world libutil;
Just one more question.. would it help to simply let someone turn off, and then
turn the machine back on?
rc does the ldconfig thing..

sorry for the extra message!
My mind is a little 'preoccupied' lately..

-Jeroen.
 albast@xs4all.nl
 jh@twiddle.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 02:54:36 1997
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Hi,

In article <E0wR8gT-0004sS-00@rover.village.org>, Warner Losh wrote:
> All this talk reminds me of all of those silly NE2000 compatible cards
> that I have laying around useless since FreeBSD can't find them on
> boot.  Any idea how to make FreeBSD probe really hard for them?

Don't kill me right now :) - but i have a lot of them around here, too.
I usually go and get a recent Linux-Bootdisk, let it probe for the card, write
the parameters down, and use them in my FreeBSD installation :) 

CU,
	Sec
-- 
Fuer die Raupe ist es das Ende der Welt,
Fuer den Rest der Welt ist es ein Schmetterling
							    Error 0: No error

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 03:26:22 1997
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From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com
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Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
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I've just been told that the Linux binary of thot from the ftp site runs 
fine on FreeBSD 2.2 with Linux emulation.

Danny

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 04:05:42 1997
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Is anyone out there successfully running a 200 or 233MHz K6 on FreeBSD?  

If so I'd be interested in hearing from you.  I'm chip shopping and these
two have my attention.

Randall Hopper
rhh@ct.picker.com


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 04:22:56 1997
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From: "Ron G. Minnich" <rminnich@Sarnoff.COM>
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I guess I should mention here that at 
www.sarnoff.com:8000

you'll find some metacomputing stuff. All source available, more to come, 
uses standard stuff, runs on freebsd. I pulled Mosix down, saw the .o 
files with no source, and deleted it. MPC I can't quite figure out where 
the source is. 

For some interesting low-latency work you should check out unet. I ported 
condor to freebsd but the condor team never picked it up so i nuked it. I 
have not seen any good schedulers for freebsd yet, but I am sure they are 
out there. 

ron

Ron Minnich                |"I would point them out but ...
rminnich@sarnoff.com       |  I have no hands." -- Coconut Monkey
(609)-734-3120             | (see CM at www.pcgamer.com/coconut.html)
ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 05:09:53 1997
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Is this 'because of the way it happens to be implemented' or something
fundamental?

Is there any way that one could add a hint to say that the access will
be sequential, or that it should fault in multiple pages?

Some extra flags as an extension?

Ideally one might try to keep a simple history and spot sequential
access after a couple of pages are faulted in, and set the option
automatically.

James

Terry Lambert wrote:
> 
> >   this question must be old, but anyway...
> >
> >   why mmap() under freebsd (at least, 2.1) almost two times slower than
> > read()? I've tryed to read large files, with multiple mmap()'ing file into
> > buffer with size = getpagesize() * 10, and with/without madvise()...
> 
> Because of the way buffering is implemented, mmap() can not trigger
> predictive read-ahead, while read() can.  The performance improvement
> in read() for sequential I/O comes from read-ahead.
> 
>                                         Regards,
>                                         Terry Lambert
>                                         terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.

-- 
Westongold Ltd                 C++/Java
 Multithread development and libraries
+44 1920 444284     info@westongold.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 06:13:49 1997
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From: "Eric J. Chet" <ejc@bazzle.com>
To: James Mansion <james@westongold.com>
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Subject: Re: mmap()
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, James Mansion wrote:

> Is this 'because of the way it happens to be implemented' or something
> fundamental?
> 
> Is there any way that one could add a hint to say that the access will
> be sequential, or that it should fault in multiple pages?
> 
> Some extra flags as an extension?
> 

Hello
	madvise(addr, len, MADV_SEQUENTIAL)
 
ejc



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 06:24:48 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:24:11 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
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On Wed, 14 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> SGML stuff we could (in theory) "add":
> There's this site that even keeps a CVS tree:
> http://web.inter.NL.net/users/C.deGroot/sgmltools/

This was the basis of the original linuxdoc to
(text|latex|postscript|html) conversion used in FreeBSD. 
However, it was (and still is as far as I can tell) a hideous
collection of hacks by people who apparently didn't know much
about SGML.  I've been replacing the whole system bit by bit. The
only remaining piece is the linuxdoc DTD itself, although I've
cleaned it up a bit, removing some of the more offensive abuses
of SGML. 

In short, been there, done that!

I have not looked at COST too carefully, probably just because
I'm not that fond of tcl.

> An object oriented toolkit:
> http://www.jclark.com/sp/index.htm

Jade is the way to go for formatting.  The current heart of the
FreeBSD SGML conversion system is instant(1) which is more
cumbersome, less powerfull, and full of bugs.  I brought it in
because (a) it was so much better than the original linuxdoc
tools and (b) jade was too young.

Jade is getting mature enough now that instant's days are
definately numbered--I have a list of bugfixes and enhancements
to instant that I suspect will never get implemented.  :)

-john


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 07:08:41 1997
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From: Mr M P Searle <csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
In-Reply-To: <199705140124.KAA19577@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "May 14, 97 10:54:37 am"
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:55:00 +0100 (BST)
Cc: karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
        hackers@freebsd.org
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> Mikael Karpberg stands accused of saying:
> > > 
> > > We have already noted that the "finished" splash image is a 320x400 
> > > bmp file, as currently (partially) supported.
> > 
> > Umm... Is this a "no, silly. we allready use another format" or not?
> > I have no idea what format the logo.sys uses. But if we want to get color
> > cycling in, etc, anyway... Is there a problem with using their format?
> > What, in that case?
> 
> _Again_, the W95 logo.sys file is a 320x400 BMP image.
> 
> > > Symlinks are right out.  The file will have to be present, in place, 
> > > in the root filesystem, in order to be read by the bootloader.
> > 
> > Ack! Right. Oh well... was a nice thought. :-)
> 
> It was?
> 
> > > > Color cycling should happen at an even pace, if possible. I'm not sure if
> > > 
> > > It's already been explained that it can't.
> > 
> > Umm... No. It was said that there was a timer interupt, but that it was not
> > available during probing, and so you (ie "syscons") would have to wait for
> > driver output and possibly do something at the same time as you output that.
> > So every time you get a call from a driver, you should be able to cycle the
> > colors. What you will want to do, however, is not cycle too often. So you
> > save the value of the hardware clock, or something, each time you cycle.
> 
> Er, have you ever heard of anything called "hardware abstraction" or 
> "layering"?
> 
> Yeah, let's just go fiddle with the timer hardware inside the console 
> driver.  I'm sorry; I don't think I'm quite up to the sort of abuse
> that I'd get for that 8)
> 
> > Am I correct?
> 
> Er.  "Yes you could", but "No I don't think I want to just now".
> 
> Bruce will probably correct me, but I don't think that the kernel time
> code is running during the hardware probe phase.
> 

Well, I don't know much about the kernel probes, but most of the time is
spent in delay loops, right? And although the timing of some of these may
be important, if a loop is waiting for 2 seconds, it isn't going to matter
if it delays for 2.1 seconds instead. So, the delay loop could be replaced
by one which (if the delay is longer than, say, 50ms) is split into
a number of short delay loops, with a call to the splash-screen routine
in between. (Cycling the colours at the end of every device probe only
wouldn't do much - on my machine at least the only devices that delay for
a significant amount of time are the floppy, SCSI disk and SCSI CD.)



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 07:12:02 1997
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Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
In-Reply-To: <199705140124.KAA19577@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> from Michael Smith at "May 14, 97 10:54:37 am"
To: msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au (Michael Smith)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:55:00 +0100 (BST)
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> Mikael Karpberg stands accused of saying:
> > > 
> > > We have already noted that the "finished" splash image is a 320x400 
> > > bmp file, as currently (partially) supported.
> > 
> > Umm... Is this a "no, silly. we allready use another format" or not?
> > I have no idea what format the logo.sys uses. But if we want to get color
> > cycling in, etc, anyway... Is there a problem with using their format?
> > What, in that case?
> 
> _Again_, the W95 logo.sys file is a 320x400 BMP image.
> 
> > > Symlinks are right out.  The file will have to be present, in place, 
> > > in the root filesystem, in order to be read by the bootloader.
> > 
> > Ack! Right. Oh well... was a nice thought. :-)
> 
> It was?
> 
> > > > Color cycling should happen at an even pace, if possible. I'm not sure if
> > > 
> > > It's already been explained that it can't.
> > 
> > Umm... No. It was said that there was a timer interupt, but that it was not
> > available during probing, and so you (ie "syscons") would have to wait for
> > driver output and possibly do something at the same time as you output that.
> > So every time you get a call from a driver, you should be able to cycle the
> > colors. What you will want to do, however, is not cycle too often. So you
> > save the value of the hardware clock, or something, each time you cycle.
> 
> Er, have you ever heard of anything called "hardware abstraction" or 
> "layering"?
> 
> Yeah, let's just go fiddle with the timer hardware inside the console 
> driver.  I'm sorry; I don't think I'm quite up to the sort of abuse
> that I'd get for that 8)
> 
> > Am I correct?
> 
> Er.  "Yes you could", but "No I don't think I want to just now".
> 
> Bruce will probably correct me, but I don't think that the kernel time
> code is running during the hardware probe phase.
> 

Well, I don't know much about the kernel probes, but most of the time is
spent in delay loops, right? And although the timing of some of these may
be important, if a loop is waiting for 2 seconds, it isn't going to matter
if it delays for 2.1 seconds instead. So, the delay loop could be replaced
by one which (if the delay is longer than, say, 50ms) is split into
a number of short delay loops, with a call to the splash-screen routine
in between. (Cycling the colours at the end of every device probe only
wouldn't do much - on my machine at least the only devices that delay for
a significant amount of time are the floppy, SCSI disk and SCSI CD.)



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 07:21:27 1997
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Subject: Re: URGENT:  Printing an X11 screen.  How?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96.970513072414.21875A-100000@narcissus.ml.org> from The Devil Himself at "May 13, 97 07:26:21 am"
To: fullermd@narcissus.ml.org (The Devil Himself)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:17:32 +0100 (BST)
Cc: Shimon@i-connect.net, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
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> On Mon, 12 May 1997, Simon Shapiro wrote:
> 
> > Once upon a time there used to be an wwd-xwud-xpr and somethingtopbm that
> > could print an X window or a portion thereof.
> > 
> > Now all I see is xwd and xwud, whose man page refers to xpr which is
> > nowhere to be seen.  xtopbm from pbmnet only deals with bitmaps.
> > 
> > I need, urgently to dump to a printer a number of X11 screens.  How?
> Well, the way I do it is:
> a) open another window.
> b) run vi (or your editor of choice)
> c) do the cut 'n' paste thingy (highlight, paste into editor w/ middle
> mouse button)
> d) save the file to something.
> e) lpr -h (file)
> 
> Prob won't work too well for graphics, but for text, it works great.
> If you have multiple screenfulls to print, just pipe the initial output to
> more (or less), and paste it over a screen at a time.
> 

ImageMagick can do it (by loading a .xwd format file.)
(I thought netpbm could as well - maybe you have an old version?)


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 07:28:50 1997
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Subject: Re: IDE probe slowness; Was: Re: if_de.c ????
In-Reply-To: <19970513083206.46734@dan.emsphone.com> from Dan Nelson at "May 13, 97 08:32:06 am"
To: dnelson@emsphone.com (Dan Nelson)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:21:06 +0100 (BST)
Cc: imp@village.org, hackers@freebsd.org
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> In the last episode (May 13), Warner Losh said:
> > 
> > Yup.  However, 90% of the time to get to that point is probing device
> > and timeouts on my machine (2 scsi busses and 2 IDE controllers).  I
> > haven't commented some of them out yet.
> > 
> > Warner
> 
> Not to get too off-topic, but if you're tired of the long delays in the
> IDE probe, a quick fix is to adjust the TIMEOUT define at the top of
> /sys/i386/isa/wd.c .  It is 10000 by default, but I'm using 2000 on a
> couple of machines without problems.  My IDE bus has one ATAPI disk,
> and during the probe, wdwait() waits for the entire timeout period 3
> times (which I think comes to 30 secods). With TIMEOUT at 2000, I only
> wait 6 seconds.
> 
> I haven't looked at any IDE specs, but I'm sure the delay is this high
> to accomodate older IDE disks.
> 
> The SCSI wait is easier to change; options SCSI_DELAY in the kernel
> config file.  I use SCSI_DELAY=1 with no ill effects.

The SCSI delay can actually be removed (take out the SCSI_DELAY line)
without any problems, at least for me - it still waits for a while, but
always detects the disk and CD.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 07:33:59 1997
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From: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Message-Id: <199705151431.AAA07023@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970515203023.3567K-100000@panda.hilink.com.au> from Daniel O'Callaghan at "May 15, 97 08:31:38 pm"
To: danny@panda.hilink.com.au (Daniel O'Callaghan)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:01:48 +0930 (CST)
Cc: gjennejohn@frt.dec.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Daniel O'Callaghan stands accused of saying:
> 
> I've just been told that the Linux binary of thot from the ftp site runs 
> fine on FreeBSD 2.2 with Linux emulation.

If I'd thought there might be any doubt about it, I would have
mentioned that sooner; I downloaded it and checked it out as soon as
Amancio referenced it.

It struck me as being rather opaque, so I've gone back to StarOffice 8)

> Danny

-- 
]] Mike Smith, Software Engineer        msmith@gsoft.com.au             [[
]] Genesis Software                     genesis@gsoft.com.au            [[
]] High-speed data acquisition and      (GSM mobile)     0411-222-496   [[
]] realtime instrument control.         (ph)          +61-8-8267-3493   [[
]] Unix hardware collector.             "Where are your PEZ?" The Tick  [[

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 07:44:27 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:46:59 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Lee Crites (AEI)" <leec@adam.adonai.net>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: stars screen saver problem...
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When I first installed FreeBSD I used the 2.1.5 cd's from Walnut Creek
(that came with the book -- Thanks Greg!!).  During the install process
it asked something about a screen saver.  I installed the stars screen
saver there.

When I upgraded to 2.2 (via ctm -- thanks Richard), the screen saver
ceased to show up.  My upgrade happened without a glitch -- compiled
with no errors, etc.

I found something in one of the rc files (can't remember) which appeared
to be the problem and fixed it.  Now, when the screen saver comes on,
all it does is change the single byte at the upper left hand corner of
the screen (0,0 ?!?).

Any clues what direction I might take to find the problem/answer?

Thanks muchly...

Lee




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 07:55:00 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:36:30 +0800 (WST)
From: Adrian Chadd <adrian@obiwan.psinet.net.au>
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: project: editor
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On Tue, 13 May 1997, Michael Smith wrote:

> I think that Tcl 8.0 is in the same state as Perl 5 - waiting for the
> final release.  I can't see any serious value in going to 7.6 given that
> it would be outdated so quickly.

*nod*

Thats why I noticed even in light of the recent security problems with
suidperl in v4.x and 5 up until the "latest" (i forget which one, I don't
use suidperl anyway), -current (someone wanna check releng , etc?) at
least STILL builds setuid perl.

...
root@obiwan:/usr/src/gnu/usr.bin/perl/sperl# cat Makefile

[snip]

BINOWN= root
BINMODE=4111

[snip]

I have this little file called "unixholes".. FreeBSD has "suidperl ==
chmod 000 /usr/bin/suidperl) as the first entry. :)

I *could* be wrong, but if I'm not could someone please at least look at
disabling setuid perl until the latest 5.00x version enters the source
tree? I love telling people how "secure" FreeBSD is .. then this comes
along. :-)

Cya,

Adrian.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 08:51:14 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:51:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Yobst <george@lincc.lib.or.us>
To: "Lee Crites (AEI)" <leec@adam.adonai.net>
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: stars screen saver problem...
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, Lee Crites (AEI) wrote:

[snip]
*When I upgraded to 2.2 (via ctm -- thanks Richard), the screen saver
*ceased to show up.  My upgrade happened without a glitch -- compiled
*with no errors, etc.

Lee, look in /etc/sysconfig for:  # Set blank time (in seconds) or "off" to
turn it off (or NO for default)
----------------------------------------------------------------------- George
Yobst, System Manager email: george@lincc.lib.or.us LINCC phone: 503-655-8550
16239 SE McLoughlin Blvd, Suite 208 fax: 503-655-8555 Oak Grove, OR 97267-4654
webmaster: [www.]lincc.lib.or.us "...it is impossible for anyone to begin to
learn blanktime="300"  what he thinks he already knows." - Epictetus
                                                                                
# Set to screen saver desired: blank, green, snake, star (or NO for none) 
saver="star"   


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 08:53:44 1997
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To: "Ron G. Minnich" <rminnich@Sarnoff.COM>
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
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             <Pine.SUN.3.91.970515071945.21958B-100000@terra> 
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From: "Russell L. Carter" <rcarter@consys.com>
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The linux elf version of Codine works flawlessly on FreeBSD.  We're
using it to implement fault-tolerant prioritized CORBA objects
on clusters.  (Completely different approach than Electra et. al.)

I haven't looked into the scheduler very carefully but the hooks
are there to do interesting things.

(This is *high* latency stuff :-)

Regards,
Russell

> I guess I should mention here that at 
> www.sarnoff.com:8000
> 
> you'll find some metacomputing stuff. All source available, more to come, 
> uses standard stuff, runs on freebsd. I pulled Mosix down, saw the .o 
> files with no source, and deleted it. MPC I can't quite figure out where 
> the source is. 
> 
> For some interesting low-latency work you should check out unet. I ported 
> condor to freebsd but the condor team never picked it up so i nuked it. I 
> have not seen any good schedulers for freebsd yet, but I am sure they are 
> out there. 
> 
> ron
> 
> Ron Minnich                |"I would point them out but ...
> rminnich@sarnoff.com       |  I have no hands." -- Coconut Monkey
> (609)-734-3120             | (see CM at www.pcgamer.com/coconut.html)
> ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html 
> 
> 
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 08:54:29 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 08:54:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: George Yobst <george@lincc.lib.or.us>
To: "Lee Crites (AEI)" <leec@adam.adonai.net>
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Subject: Re: stars screen saver problem... (oops)
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, Lee Crites (AEI) wrote:
[snip]
*When I upgraded to 2.2 (via ctm -- thanks Richard), the screen saver
*ceased to show up.  My upgrade happened without a glitch -- compiled
*with no errors, etc.
*

(Sorry all, just getting used to the mouse & pine)
Lee, look in /etc/sysconfig for:

# Set blank time (in seconds) or "off" to turn it off (or NO for default) 
blanktime="300" 
                                                                                
# Set to screen saver desired: blank, green, snake, star (or NO for none) 
saver="star"   
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
George Yobst, System Manager              email: george@lincc.lib.or.us
LINCC                                     phone: 503-655-8550
16239 SE McLoughlin Blvd, Suite 208         fax: 503-655-8555
Oak Grove, OR 97267-4654              webmaster: [www.]lincc.lib.or.us
"...it is impossible for anyone to begin to learn
 what he thinks he already knows."  - Epictetus


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 08:54:52 1997
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 May 1997 15:45:01 MST."
             <337A406D.228D@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> 
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> Alex Fenyo (eowyn) wrote:
> > 
> > I don't know the status of MOSIX, but for your information, there is
> > another multi-computer parallel machine based on FreeBSD, made in
> > France by a collaboration of different universities.
> > 
> The "status" of MOSIX is fully operational under BSD/OS. Some people
> have asked me about this: I only know the MOSIX team is now studying a
> port of MOSIX to FreeBSD. They seemed to like our difference with other
> OS's (namely Linux), and our licensing terms.
> 
> I looked a bit at MPC, it seems cool but I didn't like that they use
> this  unstandard hardware, while MOSIX uses anything from network cards
> to ATM or higher speed cards. I don't think MOSIX will include source
> code, and it seems like they will release a limited version for six
> computers, but I can live with it :-). (With six boxes, a common
> scientific process could take nearly 1/6 of the time on a fast network).
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The difference between "could" and "does" is the
reason for the failure of (nearly) every business unit that sold
highly parallel/cluster systems.

Cheers,
Russell



> 
> 	Pedro.
> > 
> > Alexandre Fenyo
> 
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 09:25:45 1997
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Well, I got me some of them Intel Pro 100/B cards that everyone was 
ranting about, and they seem to work fine. 

I do get the following message when I configure it with ifconfig:

Warning: Unsupported PHY type=7, addr=1

What is this?

NOTE: I am running 2.2.1 with the if_media support installed, and I
have it plugged into a 10baseT network.

Thanks,

Dennis

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 09:28:56 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:27:07 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>,
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Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you? 
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On Wed, 14 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:

> when you get a chance, check out http://rah.star-gate.com/languages.html
> it discusses the theory of their meta language thingy.

I wandered off to http://opera.inrialpes.fr/thot/AboutThot.html
and Thot in relation to SGML makes a lot more sense.  In
particular, the project started in 1983, a couple years before
the SGML standard was finalized by the ISO (but a couple years
after the first SGML working draft and a good decade after GML
which was the basis of SGML). I also didn't realize that Thot was
related to Grif, which I am familiar with.  Grif evolved into
using SGML as its base.

-john


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 09:33:32 1997
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From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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Subject: Re: stars screen saver problem...
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FWIW, this is not exactly related to your problem, but no screensaver
works under 2.2.1-Release when I use pcvt (unreferenced code ?) instead
of the SCO-like console.
I think there might be an update on NetBSD that supports this.

	Pedro.

Lee Crites (AEI) wrote:
> 
> When I first installed FreeBSD I used the 2.1.5 cd's from Walnut Creek
> (that came with the book -- Thanks Greg!!).  During the install process
> it asked something about a screen saver.  I installed the stars screen
> saver there.
> 
> When I upgraded to 2.2 (via ctm -- thanks Richard), the screen saver
> ceased to show up.  My upgrade happened without a glitch -- compiled
> with no errors, etc.
> 
> I found something in one of the rc files (can't remember) which appeared
> to be the problem and fixed it.  Now, when the screen saver comes on,
> all it does is change the single byte at the upper left hand corner of
> the screen (0,0 ?!?).
> 
> Any clues what direction I might take to find the problem/answer?
> 
> Thanks muchly...
> 
> Lee

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 09:36:05 1997
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Got a pointer to Grif ? I mean software which I can take a look at..

	Tnks,
	Amancio

>From The Desk Of John Fieber :
> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> > when you get a chance, check out http://rah.star-gate.com/languages.html
> > it discusses the theory of their meta language thingy.
> 
> I wandered off to http://opera.inrialpes.fr/thot/AboutThot.html
> and Thot in relation to SGML makes a lot more sense.  In
> particular, the project started in 1983, a couple years before
> the SGML standard was finalized by the ISO (but a couple years
> after the first SGML working draft and a good decade after GML
> which was the basis of SGML). I also didn't realize that Thot was
> related to Grif, which I am familiar with.  Grif evolved into
> using SGML as its base.
> 
> -john
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 09:35:33 1997
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Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
References: <199705130304.MAA13243@genesis.atrad.adelaide.edu.au> <E0wR8gT-0004sS-00@rover.village.org> <slrn5nln93.lvi.sec@matrix.42.org>
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Stefan `Sec` Zehl wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> In article <E0wR8gT-0004sS-00@rover.village.org>, Warner Losh wrote:
> > All this talk reminds me of all of those silly NE2000 compatible cards
> > that I have laying around useless since FreeBSD can't find them on
> > boot.  Any idea how to make FreeBSD probe really hard for them?
> 
> Don't kill me right now :) - but i have a lot of them around here, too.
> I usually go and get a recent Linux-Bootdisk, let it probe for the card, write
> the parameters down, and use them in my FreeBSD installation :)
> 
> CU,
>         Sec
I do the contrary: I boot a DOS floppy and configure them to the what
FreeBSD is really expecting. Most times it works, but sometimes no.

	Pedro.


> --
> Fuer die Raupe ist es das Ende der Welt,
> Fuer den Rest der Welt ist es ein Schmetterling
>                                                             Error 0: No error



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 09:38:15 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:40:40 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Lee Crites (AEI)" <leec@adam.adonai.net>
Reply-To: "Lee Crites (AEI)" <leec@adam.adonai.net>
To: George Yobst <george@lincc.lib.or.us>
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: stars screen saver problem... (oops)
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, George Yobst wrote:

=>*When I upgraded to 2.2 (via ctm -- thanks Richard), the screen saver
=>*ceased to show up.  My upgrade happened without a glitch -- compiled
=>*with no errors, etc.
=>Lee, look in /etc/sysconfig for:
=>
=># Set blank time (in seconds) or "off" to turn it off (or NO for default) 
=>blanktime="300" 
=>                                                                                
=># Set to screen saver desired: blank, green, snake, star (or NO for none) 
=>saver="star"   

Sorry, I must not have been clear enough.  I found what needed to be
changed to get the screen saver working.  The problem is now that is is
working, all it is doing is changing the one byte at (0,0) on the
screen.  When it kicks on (after 300 seconds), I see spot (0,0) to wild
with flashing characters and nothing else is changed.

I'll a few more bits of info:

* I'm not using X

* Since console messages show up on the alt-f1 screen, and I don't want
to screw them up, I am almost always in one of the others -- normally
alt-f2, where I am running the "systat -vmstat 2" command. 

Thanks again...

Lee


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 09:47:55 1997
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To: "Russell L. Carter" <rcarter@consys.com>
CC: "Alex Fenyo (eowyn)" <fenyo@email.enst.fr>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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Russell L. Carter wrote:

> > computers, but I can live with it :-). (With six boxes, a common
> > scientific process could take nearly 1/6 of the time on a fast network).
>                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> The difference between "could" and "does" is the
> reason for the failure of (nearly) every business unit that sold
> highly parallel/cluster systems.
> 
I already corrected this, it does 4.5 times better, not 6. Anyway
measuring this is extremely difficult and any vendor can change the
intrinsic variables.
It all depends on how big is your process(es) and if the other boxes are
busy on other things or not. I would expect better results with SMP (the
other processors work on the same thing while on clustering every box
can handle it's own process), but in the end the total cost of the
hardware is the issue, and if you already have other boxes with spare
time, well..
The type of process is also important. Clustering is better for
crunching-number process than in massive volume processes. Not much
sense in using clustering for a Web server if your internal network
isn't VERY fast.
	Pedro.

> Cheers,
> Russell
> 
> >
> >       Pedro.
> > >
> > > Alexandre Fenyo
> >
> >

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 09:49:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:47:04 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: Amancio Hasty <hasty@rah.star-gate.com>
cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>,
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:

> Got a pointer to Grif ? I mean software which I can take a look at..

Grif has evolved into a commercial venture.  See
http://www.grif.fr/.  A demo of Grif Symposia is available, but
I'm having difficulty downloading it at the moment.

-john


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 09:49:11 1997
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From: Eivind Eklund <perhaps@yes.no>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
CC: perhaps@yes.no, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, imp@village.org,
        karpen@ocean.campus.luth.se, msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au,
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In-reply-to: Terry Lambert's message of Wed, 14 May 1997 10:18:27 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
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> 
> > colorls has a whole bunch of problems.  However, linuxls with colors
> > actually work quite nicely - it defaults to no colors (yeah!), and has
> > a '--color=tty' option that will only do color sequences if you
> > actually use a tty, making it work without problems in a pipe.
> 
> You know, I tried this.  It gave me a whole lot of additional
> information in color of the type normally provided "in band" by
> "ls -F", and it statted all the files to do it (which a normal
> "ls" does not).

If we should ever end up having this standard, we'll have to do it as
a patch to our own ls, not just picking up the one from Linux - no
extra GNU licenses, please.

> Then I went to my Televideo 925, and all the information was lost.
> Good thing I didn't use it long enough to become dependent on it.

I've used it for quite some time, but I'm not dependent on it - it
just makes me work a little bit quicker, because the cues are more
obvious without being more obstructive.

> The problem with color utilities is that if the color is important
> to their function, then their function is easily damaged by a lot
> of hardware out there.

True.  However, that is always the problem with extending
functionality - you can't go back.

Eivind.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 09:53:04 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705151646.JAA14975@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: RFC.. Proposal.. file flag No-delete
To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:46:31 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> > Why won't this work:
> > 
> > chown root.x a a/b
> > chmod 1770 a a/b
          3770
> > chown user.x a/d[n]
> > chmod 1750 a/d[n]
          3750
> > 
> 
> because if userA (in group x) writes a file in B,
> userB (also in group x) cannot remove it.
> we thought of this..

How about this instead, then?

I think giving SGID the same mening relative to group for directories
as the sticky bit is a much less intrusive change than the "delete"
change.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 09:59:38 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705151652.JAA15034@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone on the list with Matrox Millenium docs?
To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:52:41 -0700 (MST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> Oops,
> I meant BGR to RGB.
> 
> > I just bought a Matrox Millenium and I am interested in reordering 
> > the pixel order from RGB to RGB

What kind of cable you using?  If the one with the 3 coax connectors,
it's pretty trivial, since horizontal sync is on green and you aren't
changing green.  8-).


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 10:01:42 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:22:39 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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Amancio Hasty wrote:
> 
> So lets build a web page with related links .
> 
Yup, I'll work on this. Besides we have a nice HTML tool :).

	Pedro.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 10:01:46 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:01:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Eric J. Chet" <ejc@bazzle.com>
To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, dg@root.com
Subject: Re: Intel Pro 100/B "Warning"
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, dennis wrote:

> 
> Well, I got me some of them Intel Pro 100/B cards that everyone was 
> ranting about, and they seem to work fine. 
> 
> I do get the following message when I configure it with ifconfig:
> 
> Warning: Unsupported PHY type=7, addr=1
> 

Hello
	I just installed two of these cards a week ago in -current
machines, I'm seeing the same messages.

Later,

ejc


> What is this?
> 
> NOTE: I am running 2.2.1 with the if_media support installed, and I
> have it plugged into a 10baseT network.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dennis
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 10:03:35 1997
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Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
To: jfieber@indiana.edu (John Fieber)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 09:53:35 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hasty@rah.star-gate.com,
        pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, jmz@cabri.obs-besancon.fr,
        jkh@time.cdrom.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> > 	Hypertext Markup Language is a Document Type defined by
> > 	a Simple Graphic Markup Language Document Type Description
>           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> Standard Generalized Markup Language actually.  ISO 8879:1986 for
> standards buffs.  :)

Ghah, I always screw this acronym up!  8-(.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 10:16:31 1997
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Message-Id: <199705151709.KAA15089@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: mmap()
To: ejc@bazzle.com (Eric J. Chet)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:09:21 -0700 (MST)
Cc: james@westongold.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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[ ... mmap() won't trigger predictive read-ahead ... ]

> > Is this 'because of the way it happens to be implemented' or something
> > fundamental?
> > 
> > Is there any way that one could add a hint to say that the access will
> > be sequential, or that it should fault in multiple pages?
> > 
> > Some extra flags as an extension?
> 
> 	madvise(addr, len, MADV_SEQUENTIAL)

This, of course, only depresses the priority of pages preceeding the
page being accessed so the VM can feel free to recycle them faster.
Maybe if your cache was already thrashing, this would be a win.  But
probably not.

Predictive read-ahead is a function of the block I/O subsystem, the
read operands of which are implemented with the VM system.

The mapping of file pages into your address space are also implemented
with the VM system.


On systems where mmap() is implemented on top of a buffer cache (ie:
systems without a unified VM/buffer cache, unlike FreeBSD), mmap()
accesses will trigger predictive read ahead.  But because a unified
cache is so much faster than a non-unified one, practically, you
will not get better performance from that mmap() than you already
get from the FreeBSD mmap().  This is because an mmap() on a buffer
cache is proportionally slower because of buffer/VM synchronization
(which isn't needed on a unified system).  So it's six of one, half
a dozen of the other.


This is not to say the situation is hopeless; you *could* crank up the
sequential I/O performance of mmap(), at a cost of a save and compare
in the general page fault case.  What would have to happen is the vnode
would have to notice on one fault that the page faulted immediately
before for the same vnode was the immediately previous page, and then
it would predictively "fault ahead" instead of the block I/O subsystem
noting that the read is sequentialy and predictively faulting ahead.

Maybe you can convince John Dyson that coding this would be fun (it
might even actually *be* fun 8-)), and then checking the degradation
this causes in the general case to see if it's unacceptably high for
your special case.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 10:27:19 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:26:03 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: Michael Smith <msmith@atrad.adelaide.edu.au>
cc: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>, gjennejohn@frt.dec.com,
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Subject: Re: Is Thot (WYSIWIG editor) for you?
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Michael Smith wrote:

[On Thot]

> It struck me as being rather opaque, so I've gone back to StarOffice 8)

Bingo!

When faced with only structural control I've found that perfectly
intelligent and sophisticated computer users, even those who
intellectually grasp the concept of descriptive markup, feel out
of control and quickly retreat to the more familiar WYSIWYG or
presentational markup systems (like TeX).  The "procedural markup
instinct" is amazingly strong. 

As a structured document proponent/evangelist, I find this
problem extremely aggrivating. When the issue comes up in SGML
circles, you hear some mumbling and then the topic is quickly
changed.  Algorithms and data structures are easy.  Interfacing
to humans is hard.  I have this little voice in my head
suggesting, on occasion, that the elegant concept of structured
documents is doomed so long as it is humans creating the
documents.  :(

That said, there are certainly ways that Thot could be made a bit
less opaque.  :)

-john


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 10:31:44 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705151721.KAA15108@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: 2.2 Splashkit
To: csubl@csv.warwick.ac.uk (Mr M P Searle)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:21:51 -0700 (MST)
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> > > > > Color cycling should happen at an even pace, if possible.
> > > > 
> > > > It's already been explained that it can't.
> > > 
> > > Umm... No. It was said that there was a timer interupt, but that
> > > it was not available during probing, and so you (ie "syscons")
> > > would have to wait for driver output and possibly do something
> > > at the same time as you output that.  So every time you get a
> > > call from a driver, you should be able to cycle the colors.
> > > What you will want to do, however, is not cycle too often. So
> > > you save the value of the hardware clock, or something, each
> > > time you cycle.
> > 
> > Er, have you ever heard of anything called "hardware abstraction" or 
> > "layering"?
[ ... ]
> > Bruce will probably correct me, but I don't think that the kernel time
> > code is running during the hardware probe phase.

Well, that would be because it's not correctly layered.  8-).

> Well, I don't know much about the kernel probes, but most of the time is
> spent in delay loops, right? And although the timing of some of these may
> be important, if a loop is waiting for 2 seconds, it isn't going to matter
> if it delays for 2.1 seconds instead. So, the delay loop could be replaced
> by one which (if the delay is longer than, say, 50ms) is split into
> a number of short delay loops, with a call to the splash-screen routine
> in between. (Cycling the colours at the end of every device probe only
> wouldn't do much - on my machine at least the only devices that delay for
> a significant amount of time are the floppy, SCSI disk and SCSI CD.)

Better to use a real timer in the probes.  This will get rid of the
manifest "magic" values which are responsible for how long the thing
buzzes waiting.

What is really needed (and has been since 1993, when I first suggested
it, and then implemented it on UnixWare) is a high resoloution timer
system based on reschedulable one-shots.

Then if you used the timer in the probes instead of delay loops, you
could do neat things like probe hardware with known different interrupts
(PnP, PCMCIA, EISA, PCI -- basically everything but ISA [Die, ISA, Die!])
*simultaneously*.  It'd make the system a bit more zippy on boot anyway.

So you bring the console code up first thing (you have to anyway to
report boot progress) and make the splash code sonsume the console
code and the timer code (bring the timer up second thing).


I just had a discussion about the necessary timer code with Peter Wemm,
actually, and we both agree that it would be difficult to write.

But that's the way you want to approach it, and you get neat wins out
of it anyway, like being able to move the ft driver into the kernel
and not spend 60% of your time while it's running buzzing on the FDC.
It also buys you concurrency speedups in PIO delay loops.

Too much work for me, right now, though.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 10:34:40 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705151725.KAA15126@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
To: rcarter@consys.com (Russell L. Carter)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:25:37 -0700 (MST)
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> > computers, but I can live with it :-). (With six boxes, a common
> > scientific process could take nearly 1/6 of the time on a fast network).
>                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> 
> The difference between "could" and "does" is the
> reason for the failure of (nearly) every business unit that sold
> highly parallel/cluster systems.

Except Goodyear.  And Thinking Machines Corp.  And Cray Computing.
And Cray Research.  And Fujitsu.  And...

I think the list of successes so vastly outnumbers the list of
failures that your parenthetical "nearly" is *way* out of place
here.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 10:43:38 1997
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To: "Ron G. Minnich" <rminnich@sarnoff.com>
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
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On Thu, 15 May 1997 07:22:22 -0400 (EDT) 
 "Ron G. Minnich" <rminnich@Sarnoff.COM> wrote:

 > I guess I should mention here that at 
 > www.sarnoff.com:8000
 > 
 > you'll find some metacomputing stuff. All source available, more to come, 
 > uses standard stuff, runs on freebsd. I pulled Mosix down, saw the .o 
 > files with no source, and deleted it. MPC I can't quite figure out where 
 > the source is. 

...MOSIX is distributed as diffs against BSD/OS.  The only .o files
should be the Myrinet drivers, which are source-available from Myricom.

MOSIX doesn't require Myrinet, but the high-bandwidth provided by Myrinet
is nice for the process migration facility.

Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 10:46:57 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:47:36 +0200 (MEST)
From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
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I was searching for a mail I posted to the list (it was about
top showing around equal CPU scheduling (50% each) when one process runs
at nice level 5 while the other (rsa crach) was running at level 
20. I don't know whether that message made it into the list)
and didn't find it in the archives.

What is the period under which the mailing list db is updated on
www.freebsd.org?

And to get to the problem again:

how come that nice 20 get 50% CPU against a competing job running at nice
level 5?

--
Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 10:58:32 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:53:37 -0700
To: v942429@si.hhs.nl
From: Gary Schrock <root@eyelab.psy.msu.edu>
Subject: Re: Make world RELENG_2_2 Thursday May 15 -- problem!
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>Now my question is: "how can I possibly adress this problem??"
>This is a remote machine.. and I hope there is no need for me to actually
need
>to go where it resides.. it's a lonnngggg trip.

Whelp, easiest way I've found to deal with it is to reboot the machine.
Unfortunataly, not being able to log in really means you need to either go
to the machine or find someone there that can go and hit a ctrl-alt-delete
on the keyboard.

Now, my stupid question of the day for people out there on this list:  is
there any reason the make world process doesn't run ldconfig itself?  It
seems to me that if it did after rebuilding this stuff that this problem
wouldn't keep cropping up.


Gary Schrock
root@eyelab.msu.edu


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:04:48 1997
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Terry Lambert wrote:
> 
> > > Why won't this work:
> > >
> > > chown root.x a a/b
> > > chmod 1770 a a/b
>           3770
> > > chown user.x a/d[n]
> > > chmod 1750 a/d[n]
>           3750
> > >
> >
> > because if userA (in group x) writes a file in B,
> > userB (also in group x) cannot remove it.
> > we thought of this..
> 
> How about this instead, then?
> 
> I think giving SGID the same mening relative to group for directories
> as the sticky bit is a much less intrusive change than the "delete"
> change.
> 
Isn't there a normal use for SUID and SGID fro directories?
I've been racking my brains and can't think of one,
except that SOME systems use SGID on a dir to mean "Do not inherrit
group from this directory"


julian

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:04:59 1997
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Paul Sandys wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 14 May 1997, Julian Elischer wrote:
> 
> > Date: Wed, 14 May 1997 18:07:06 -0700
> > From: Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com>
> > To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
> > Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
> > Subject: Re: RFC.. Proposal.. file flag No-delete
> >
> > > >            (M) = directory
> > > >            [N] = file
> > > >
> > > > (A)----(B)----[C]
> > > >      |
> > > >      \-(D)
> > > >
> > > > We want non root members of group 'x' to be able to
> > > > add files or directories to directories A, B or D, and delete
> > > > them again,
> > [...] rest of requirement deleted..
> >
> > >
> > > Why won't this work:
> > >
> > > chown root.x a a/b
> > > chmod 1770 a a/b
> > > chown user.x a/d[n]
> > > chmod 1750 a/d[n]
> > >
> >
> > because if userA (in group x) writes a file in B,
> > userB (also in group x) cannot remove it.
> > we thought of this..
> 
> What about creating SGID rm to "x" ? (never tried it thoug)
> 
> cp rm rmx
> chown root.x rmx
> chmod 2750 rmx
> 
the 'removes' are being done vi netatalk, samba and ftp.
there are NO shell accounts on this system.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:12:52 1997
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: terry@lambert.org
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In-reply-to: <199705151709.KAA15089@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry
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   From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
   Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:09:21 -0700 (MST)

   This is not to say the situation is hopeless; you *could* crank up
   the sequential I/O performance of mmap(), at a cost of a save and
   compare in the general page fault case.

Or you could add intelligent page prefetching/prefaulting, see the
JACM article on prefetching about 3 or 4 issues ago for an extremely
clever strategy to pull this off in an online fashion.

Although be careful, their scheme is patented, but you could implement
something similar just using something other than LNZ compression code
selection (ie. use another compression scheme's code selection).
There is proof even in the computer learning field that this is an
extremely effective limited history prefetching strategy.

---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s   ////
ethernet.  Beat that!                     ////
-----------------------------------------////__________  o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:13:24 1997
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Subject: Re: stars screen saver problem... (oops)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970515113410.11512D-100000@adam.adonai.net> from Lee Crites at "May 15, 97 11:40:40 am"
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In reply to Lee Crites who wrote:
> Sorry, I must not have been clear enough.  I found what needed to be
> changed to get the screen saver working.  The problem is now that is is
> working, all it is doing is changing the one byte at (0,0) on the
> screen.  When it kicks on (after 300 seconds), I see spot (0,0) to wild
> with flashing characters and nothing else is changed.
> 
> I'll a few more bits of info:
> 
> * I'm not using X
> 
> * Since console messages show up on the alt-f1 screen, and I don't want
> to screw them up, I am almost always in one of the others -- normally
> alt-f2, where I am running the "systat -vmstat 2" command. 

It sounds as if your star_saver lkm is out of sync with the
kernel. You mentioned that you've upgraded from 2.1.x to 2.2, have
you recompiled BOTH the kernel & the lkm's ??

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt               (sos@FreeBSD.org)               FreeBSD Core Team
                Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:15:20 1997
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From: Steve Passe <smp@csn.net>
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Subject: Re: Intel Pro 100/B "Warning"
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             <199705151633.JAA27485@hub.freebsd.org> 
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Hi,

>Well, I got me some of them Intel Pro 100/B cards that everyone was 
>ranting about, and they seem to work fine. 
>
>I do get the following message when I configure it with ifconfig:
>
>Warning: Unsupported PHY type=7, addr=1
>
>What is this?
>
>NOTE: I am running 2.2.1 with the if_media support installed, and I
>have it plugged into a 10baseT network.

FYI, I see the same on both 2.2.1 and 3.0-current.  This is with the cards
attached to an SMC EZ Hub 100.  The LEDs on all cards show them running at
100 Mbit.  The messages only occur at boot time. Things seem to work fine.

---
FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE #0: Tue May 13 19:58:33 MDT 1997
 ...
fxp0 <Intel EtherExpress Pro 10/100B Ethernet> rev 2 int a irq 10 on pci0:11
...
fxp0: warning: unsupported PHY, type = 7, addr = 1

---
FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Tue May 13 18:52:20 MDT 1997
 ...
fxp0 <Intel EtherExpress Pro 10/100B Ethernet> rev 2 int a irq 18 on pci0:10:0
 ...
fxp0: warning: unsupported PHY, type = 7, addr = 1

--
Steve Passe	| powered by 
smp@csn.net	|            Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:18:02 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705151810.LAA15326@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: RFC.. Proposal.. file flag No-delete
To: julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:10:58 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <337B4E06.1B37ADEA@whistle.com> from "Julian Elischer" at May 15, 97 10:55:19 am
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> > How about this instead, then?
> > 
> > I think giving SGID the same mening relative to group for directories
> > as the sticky bit is a much less intrusive change than the "delete"
> > change.
>
> Isn't there a normal use for SUID and SGID fro directories?
> I've been racking my brains and can't think of one,
> except that SOME systems use SGID on a dir to mean "Do not inherrit
> group from this directory"

Actually, it was "*DO* inherit group from this directory", I thought.

This went out with POSIX, and has been gone from BSD for a while, as
far as I can tell.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:18:48 1997
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Cc: rcarter@consys.com (Russell L. Carter), pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
        fenyo@email.enst.fr, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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	<199705151725.KAA15126@phaeton.artisoft.com>
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> > The difference between "could" and "does" is the
> > reason for the failure of (nearly) every business unit that sold
> > highly parallel/cluster systems.
> 
> Except Goodyear.  And Thinking Machines Corp.  And Cray Computing.
> And Cray Research.  And Fujitsu.  And...

Hmm, how many of these are still in business selling highly parallel
systems?  Sounds like failure to me...



Nate

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:28:44 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705151821.LAA15353@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: mmap()
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:21:25 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, ejc@bazzle.com, james@westongold.com,
        freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705151810.OAA01276@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at May 15, 97 02:10:28 pm
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>    This is not to say the situation is hopeless; you *could* crank up
>    the sequential I/O performance of mmap(), at a cost of a save and
>    compare in the general page fault case.
> 
> Or you could add intelligent page prefetching/prefaulting, see the
> JACM article on prefetching about 3 or 4 issues ago for an extremely
> clever strategy to pull this off in an online fashion.
> 
> Although be careful, their scheme is patented, but you could implement
> something similar just using something other than LNZ compression code
> selection (ie. use another compression scheme's code selection).
> There is proof even in the computer learning field that this is an
> extremely effective limited history prefetching strategy.

Yes; the store was for "last page" and the compare was for "this page
equal last page plus one" to add a prefetch trigger to the VM to
enable predictive faulting.

The intelligent mechanisms generally require a history with the file;
The ICON systems (which used a seperate processor for the disk
controller subsystems) kept a bitmap of this information to decide
which pages were probably going to be asked for, and faulted them in.

I think that predictive faulting in the mmap() case should be as
valuable as predictive read-ahead (faulting, basically) in the read()
case, though I admit that it would be interesting to investigate
more intelligent algorithms.

The University of Utah, in particular, had a very interesting project
which involved keeping around pieces of prelinked PIC objects, which
was effectively "faulting" object linking for shared libraries.  They
unfortunately required you to do bizarre things with your address space
(I considered it as a potential candidate for BSD shared libraries at
one time).

I seems to me that the cache criteria algorithm from this would be a
good method for intelligent page selection... it's basically the same
thing, applied to code usage rather than data usage of the page contents,
and the bonus is that it's published instead of patented.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:28:49 1997
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>> [NE200 cards]

>I do the contrary: I boot a DOS floppy and configure them to the what
>FreeBSD is really expecting. Most times it works, but sometimes no.
>
>	Pedro.

This is what I had to do with mine.  It came with a configuration
diskette, so when I first installed it I had a bunch of IRQ conflicts with
something or other, so I'd jump back to DOS, change settings, back to
FreeBSD, try it out... 

I'd rather have jumpers to deal with, but I guess this is progress.


Brian


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:31:21 1997
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Message-Id: <199705151823.LAA15372@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: stars screen saver problem... (oops)
To: leec@adam.adonai.net
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:23:17 -0700 (MST)
Cc: george@lincc.lib.or.us, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970515113410.11512D-100000@adam.adonai.net> from "Lee Crites" at May 15, 97 11:40:40 am
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> Sorry, I must not have been clear enough.  I found what needed to be
> changed to get the screen saver working.  The problem is now that is is
> working, all it is doing is changing the one byte at (0,0) on the
> screen.  When it kicks on (after 300 seconds), I see spot (0,0) to wild
> with flashing characters and nothing else is changed.

I got exactly this problem when I rebuilt my kernel and then failed to
rebuild the screen saver module.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:37:35 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:28:42 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, rcarter@consys.com, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
        fenyo@email.enst.fr, hackers@freebsd.org
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> > > The difference between "could" and "does" is the
> > > reason for the failure of (nearly) every business unit that sold
> > > highly parallel/cluster systems.
> > 
> > Except Goodyear.  And Thinking Machines Corp.  And Cray Computing.
> > And Cray Research.  And Fujitsu.  And...
> 
> Hmm, how many of these are still in business selling highly parallel
> systems?  Sounds like failure to me...

Well, Goodyear was a one-off 65536 processor machine for NASA to
do fluidic modelling of laminar air flow over shuttle parts, so it
can't count as having failed.

Let's see: TMC is still going.  Cray Computing is still going.  I
don't know about Cray Research now that Seymore is dead.  Fujitsu
is still going.


Oh yeah: DEC and Sun also did (and still do) cluster computing.


What kind of machine is Deep Blue?  8-).


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:46:40 1997
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: terry@lambert.org
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        freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <199705151821.LAA15353@phaeton.artisoft.com> (message from Terry
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   From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
   Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:21:25 -0700 (MST)

   The intelligent mechanisms generally require a history with the
   file; The ICON systems (which used a seperate processor for the
   disk controller subsystems) kept a bitmap of this information to
   decide which pages were probably going to be asked for, and faulted
   them in.

The one I have made reference to only requires a small learning
prefetch tree to be hung off the vnode, after you acquire a certain
amount of "learning codes" you just chuck the entire tree and begin
learning again (this guarentees that bad sequence code selections
eventually get kicked out, it also limits how much space your learning
tree can ever take up).

   The University of Utah, in particular, had a very interesting
   project which involved keeping around pieces of prelinked PIC
   objects, which was effectively "faulting" object linking for shared
   libraries.  They unfortunately required you to do bizarre things
   with your address space (I considered it as a potential candidate
   for BSD shared libraries at one time).

Solaris and IRIX both do something remotely like this, it's a very old
idea but can be applied to existing binary formats like ELF.  (one
thing they do is they assign a "probably gonna mmap() is here" address
to every single shared library, and they distribute the address space
as evenly as they can amongst these libraries, thus they pre-relocate
all the symbols assuming this address, then when a program maps it in
they try hard to use the pre-relocated address, they even do this for
what will be the anonymous mapped bss section for the library).

Solaris has even better tricks where they collapse all the symbols you
actually have referenced in a shared library into one spot, so for
example if you only reference printf(), write(), and read(), those
three libc calls get collapsed into one page.  It's a tlb/cache miss
prevention thing, but the implementation is a bitch.  Solaris also has
symbol versioning, a very powerful concept to prevent having to make
old interfaces obsolete in a new libc release for example, we support
this particular facility under Linux (although in a more powerful
form, Solaris got the concept right but they fucked up a lot of the
important details, making they symbol versioning pretty much useless
in numerous important cases).

   I seems to me that the cache criteria algorithm from this would be
   a good method for intelligent page selection... it's basically the
   same thing, applied to code usage rather than data usage of the
   page contents, and the bonus is that it's published instead of
   patented.

Patented does not mean the idea is not usable, you can only patent a
specific implementation, just change one of the variables in the
implementation (in the case of the prefetching algorithm I referenced,
just change the compression code scheme to some other one which is
just as suitable) and you're safe.

---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s   ////
ethernet.  Beat that!                     ////
-----------------------------------------////__________  o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:51:06 1997
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From: "Lee Crites (AEI)" <leec@adam.adonai.net>
To: Søren Schmidt <sos@sos.freebsd.dk>
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: stars screen saver problem... (oops)
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, Søren Schmidt wrote:

=>It sounds as if your star_saver lkm is out of sync with the
=>kernel. You mentioned that you've upgraded from 2.1.x to 2.2, have
=>you recompiled BOTH the kernel & the lkm's ??

Can't answer that question directly.  I did a make world on the new os
and rebuilt the kernel.  Did that rebuild the lkm's as well?

Lee


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 11:53:44 1997
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From: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
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Cc: "Russell L. Carter" <rcarter@consys.com>, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
        fenyo@email.enst.fr, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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On May 05, 1997 at 10:25:37AM -0700, Terry Lambert wrote:
> > > computers, but I can live with it :-). (With six boxes, a common
> > > scientific process could take nearly 1/6 of the time on a fast network).
> >                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > 
> > The difference between "could" and "does" is the
> > reason for the failure of (nearly) every business unit that sold
> > highly parallel/cluster systems.
> 
> Except Goodyear.  And Thinking Machines Corp.  And Cray Computing.
> And Cray Research.  And Fujitsu.  And...
> 
> I think the list of successes so vastly outnumbers the list of
> failures that your parenthetical "nearly" is *way* out of place
> here.

Hmm... let's see failures:

    Denelcor
    Kendall Square Research
    Multiflow
    Cydrome
    CDC
    Convex		(aborbed by HP)
    Burroughs Scientific
    Scientific Computer Systems
    Floating Point Systems
    Supertek		(bought out by Cray Research)
    Alliant
    Myrias
    Tera		(okay, so not dead, but not producing anything)
    ...etc
    
This doesn't include companies that attempted to sell parallel computers,
but eventually shut that division down, eg: Evans and Sutherland, BBN,
and others.
       
Cray Research is effectively gone, having been absorbed by SGI, right?
I'd say that Thinking Machines is on it's way out as well; the CM-5 is 
obsolete, and I don't see a replacement on it's way.  Goodyear isn't 
still building MPP's either, AFAIK.

That's not a long list of sucesses.
--
Jonathan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 12:00:51 1997
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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Nate Williams wrote:
> 
> Hmm, how many of these are still in business selling highly parallel
> systems?  Sounds like failure to me...
> 
Well the new UNIX owners chose to work on this thing further which
should, in fact, show that it is a complete failure, as everything
associated with SCO. :-)
Parallel computing is not cost effective, but MOSIX, MPC and the other
options we are looking are free.

		Pedro.

> Nate


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 12:09:48 1997
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From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
cc: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>,
        "Russell L. Carter" <rcarter@consys.com>,
        pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, fenyo@email.enst.fr,
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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sounds like too many companies for an extremely expensive niche market to me.

your logic sounds similar to "win95 is the most widely used operating 
system in the world, therefore it is the best".

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Nate Williams wrote:

> > > The difference between "could" and "does" is the
> > > reason for the failure of (nearly) every business unit that sold
> > > highly parallel/cluster systems.
> > 
> > Except Goodyear.  And Thinking Machines Corp.  And Cray Computing.
> > And Cray Research.  And Fujitsu.  And...
> 
> Hmm, how many of these are still in business selling highly parallel
> systems?  Sounds like failure to me...
> 
> 
> 
> Nate
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 12:16:30 1997
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From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, terry@lambert.org, rcarter@consys.com,
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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urm, as far as i know TMC is quite dead.  the CM-5 was the last machine 
they built.

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:

> > > > The difference between "could" and "does" is the
> > > > reason for the failure of (nearly) every business unit that sold
> > > > highly parallel/cluster systems.
> > > 
> > > Except Goodyear.  And Thinking Machines Corp.  And Cray Computing.
> > > And Cray Research.  And Fujitsu.  And...
> > 
> > Hmm, how many of these are still in business selling highly parallel
> > systems?  Sounds like failure to me...
> 
> Well, Goodyear was a one-off 65536 processor machine for NASA to
> do fluidic modelling of laminar air flow over shuttle parts, so it
> can't count as having failed.
> 
> Let's see: TMC is still going.  Cray Computing is still going.  I
> don't know about Cray Research now that Seymore is dead.  Fujitsu
> is still going.
> 
> 
> Oh yeah: DEC and Sun also did (and still do) cluster computing.
> 
> 
> What kind of machine is Deep Blue?  8-).
> 
> 
> 					Terry Lambert
> 					terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 12:58:27 1997
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To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: rcarter@consys.com (Russell L. Carter), pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 May 1997 10:25:37 MST."
             <199705151725.KAA15126@phaeton.artisoft.com> 
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> > > computers, but I can live with it :-). (With six boxes, a common
> > > scientific process could take nearly 1/6 of the time on a fast network).
> >                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > 
> > The difference between "could" and "does" is the
> > reason for the failure of (nearly) every business unit that sold
> > highly parallel/cluster systems.
> 
> Except Goodyear.  And Thinking Machines Corp.  And Cray Computing.
> And Cray Research.  And Fujitsu.  And...

Oh my.  That's bothersome, I almost (but not quite) had a PHK style
reaction to your input.

I *must* be misinterpreting your English... you *really*
meant to lay wreaths on the graves of Goodyear, TMC, Cray Computer
BBN Computers, Convex, Floating Point Systems, Tera, whatever
Steve Chen is up to these days, Alliant, Evans & Sutherland,
and not last and not least Kendall Square Research.

Now Teradata, that's another matter; IBM's SP is a money maker
but the total value added on the RS6000 base technology is trivial.  
But, the magnitude of the subsidy each of the big three Japanese supers
invests is unknown but suspected to be large.  Intel SSD is quite a 
money pit.  Sequent has a nitch, but tiny compared to Teradata.  Cray
Research has a nitch that is eroding faster than the number of US enemy 
countries (hell of an investment, SGI... hey they bought the entrails
of FPS, too, didn't they...).  I don't know what Meiko is up to
but I doubt it is fat profits.

Of all of the efforts the only ones that evidently are/were successful
as a business are Teradata and IBM's .

Hey clusters are a fine approach to distributed problems, but parallelism 
across physically distributed systems has not succeeded often enough to
merit more than the merest blip in the computing industry.

(lugubriously, I have personally wished, would but were it not so... 8-)

Now where were we?  Oh yeah, mr. "nearly" most definitely assumes his 
rightful place at this table.

Cheers,
Russell


> 
> I think the list of successes so vastly outnumbers the list of
> failures that your parenthetical "nearly" is *way* out of place
> here.
> 
> 
> 					Terry Lambert
> 					terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 13:02:22 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:01:23 -0400
From: Larry Lile <lile@stdio.com>
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CC: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
References: <199705151553.IAA22312@conceptual.com>
		<199705151725.KAA15126@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199705151815.MAA01989@rocky.mt.sri.com>
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Nate Williams wrote:
> 
> > > The difference between "could" and "does" is the
> > > reason for the failure of (nearly) every business unit that sold
> > > highly parallel/cluster systems.
> >
> > Except Goodyear.  And Thinking Machines Corp.  And Cray Computing.
> > And Cray Research.  And Fujitsu.  And...
> 
> Hmm, how many of these are still in business selling highly parallel
> systems?  Sounds like failure to me...
> 
> Nate

How about IBM SP's and SP2's (read DeepBlue/DeepBlueII).  These 
machines are based on both SMP and "share nothing" aproaches.  Each
node is connected to a internal high speed network and the nodes
The "thin nodes" are just a single processor 120MHz machines, and the
"high nodes" are (up to) 8 processor SMP machines (135 MHz 604
PowerPC's).  But they do have high speed busses, up to 160 MB/s.

Their approach was to make very good SMP and single processor systems
and then link them using a "share nothing" paralell management system.
This obviously works well, just ask Kasparov.  

I admit I am biased, because I am an admin on an SP, but a lot of the
support used for these could easily be reproduced on FreeBSD machines.

For more information on the SP's:
   http://www.rs6000.ibm.com/hardware/largescale/#topic5

Larry Lile
lile@stdio.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 13:19:26 1997
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
In-Reply-To: <199705151725.KAA15126@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "May 15, 97 10:25:37 am"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:18:16 -0700 (PDT)
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Terry Lambert said:
>> > computers, but I can live with it :-). (With six boxes, a common
>> > scientific process could take nearly 1/6 of the time on a fast network).
>>                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> 
>> The difference between "could" and "does" is the
>> reason for the failure of (nearly) every business unit that sold
>> highly parallel/cluster systems.
>
>Except Goodyear.  And Thinking Machines Corp.  And Cray Computing.
>And Cray Research.  And Fujitsu.  And...
>
>I think the list of successes so vastly outnumbers the list of
>failures that your parenthetical "nearly" is *way* out of place
>here.
>
>

I am going to have to disagree with you here, Terry. While the above
mentioned companys produced, in their time, insanely great machines (say
the words "Cray XMP" to a fluid dynamics person such as my father and watch
them drool) as a profit making company they have not fared as well
post-cold war as they did during the Reagan buildup.

Thinking Machines is out of business. Cray Computing lost money and was
bought by SGI, mostly for their software. Cray Research was spun-off by
Seymour Cray to develop the next generation of Crays. The capital to run
Cray Research was raised based on Seymour Cray's reputation as one of the
giants of this industry. With his untimely death this past Winter I would
suspect that Cray Research will be bought up some time this year.   

Fujitsu is another story. Japanese corporations do not have the same set of
fetishes that American corporations have. The business unit that produces
the Fujitsu MMP is most likely losses money like it is going out of style.
*BUT* Fujitsu the corporation has a license to print money. Japanese
corporations do not expect every business unit to turn a profit every
quarter. They are content to allow high visibility business units that
showcase their technical mastery to loose money while the remainder of the
organization does very well. Fujitsu's mainframe division is doing very
well, eating Amdahl's lunch.

I don't know much about the Goodyear machine but I am willing to wager that
the American military and intelligence community helping to underwrite this
division of Goodyear, a corporation that is doing very well without it
computer division.


Just my $0.02


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch        |   Another day closer to a   |    FreeBSD 2.2.1
jgrosch@sirius.com  |     Micro$oft free world    | UNIX for the masses


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 13:21:16 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 16:18:16 -0400
From: robin@intercore.com (Robin Cutshaw)
To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi)
Cc: tim@futuresouth.com (Tim Tsai), dennis@etinc.com (Dennis),
        thorpej@nas.nasa.gov (Jason Thorpe), hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
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Narvi writes:
> 
> But I can also mail you two tar files which you just have to untar every
> time you make big changes - btw., it shouldn't be too hard to make make do
> it automagically every time you recompile. And yes - ifconfig support is
> included. I got them from Robin Cutshaw - may he be well and prosper!
> 

Thanks!

Several weeks ago, I tried to send the (drop-in) sources for Matt's new
driver to this list but it was dropped into the bit-bucket.  I also
tried to get write access to incoming but never got a response.  I've
been e-mailing the tarballs to anyone who asked.

I've been running Matt's code for a couple of months and it works great.
I'm even running it on a cogent/adaptec 4-by-100 card and it makes a
nice router.

robin
-- 
----
Robin Cutshaw         internet: robin@interlabs.com robin@intercore.com
Internet Labs, Inc.   BellNet:  404-817-9787        robin@XFree86.Org

    "Time is just one damn thing after another" -- PBS/Nova
----
--

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 13:29:08 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:31:51 -0500
From: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Cc: Nate Williams <nate@mt.sri.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
References: <199705151553.IAA22312@conceptual.com> <199705151725.KAA15126@phaeton.artisoft.com> <199705151815.MAA01989@rocky.mt.sri.com> <337B7859.774F@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
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On May 05, 1997 at 01:55:53PM -0700, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
> Parallel computing is not cost effective,

Hmm.  Show references please.  You might want to check out a paper that
discusses this issue:

    D.Wood and M.Hill, "Cost-Effective Parallel Computing",
        IEEE Computer, Feb 1995

--
Jonathan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 13:32:21 1997
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From: The Devil Himself <fullermd@narcissus.ml.org>
Reply-To: The Devil Himself <fullermd@narcissus.ml.org>
To: terry@lambert.org
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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 On Thu, 15 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:
 
> What kind of machine is Deep Blue?  8-).
> 
I think Deep Blue is RISC/6000, but I count that as a failure because of 3
letters: A-I-X.
<shudder>
I admin'ed (past tense) an AIX system, but it died a week or so ago, and
I'm not pushing to have it replaced...
;)

> 
> 					Terry Lambert
> 					terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.

*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
|FreeBSD is good.      FreeBSD is our friend.     UNIX is our god.|
*Micro$oft is bad.                      Micro$oft causes problems.*
|MicroBSD???      I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!|
|"I hate quotes in signature files"            :-}  MAtthew Fuller|
*fullermd@narcissus.ml.org                          FreeBSD junkie*
|http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd     Westminster College|
*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 13:38:19 1997
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199705152038.NAA01027@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: newfs incantations
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:38:16 -0700 (MST)
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Greetings!
    I'm trying to sort through the effects of all the 497
different switches you can pass to newfs  :-(  I suspect that
there are lots of particular combinations that will "work" for 
a given partition, geometry, etc.  But, what are the tradeoffs
among the b, f, u, t, c, etc. switches?
    Thanks!
--don

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 13:43:58 1997
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From: Don Yuniskis <dgy@rtd.com>
Message-Id: <199705152043.NAA01540@seagull.rtd.com>
Subject: disklabel and disktab
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 13:43:55 -0700 (MST)
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Greetings!
     Apparently, one complete track is set aside at the start
of the disk (for "compatibility with other OS's"??).  It appears
that this is *only* a track and NOT a complete cylinder.  The
disktab entry reflects this in the size of the 'c' partition
(i.e. being exactly one track's worth of sectors smaller than
the *actual* size of the disk).  But, I can't see where the
"missing sectors" are accounted for -- i.e. why aren't any
of the "offset" parameters set to reflect this "one track worth
of sectors"??
      Also, is there any particular advantage to *where* the
swap (or any other partition) happen to be physically located
on the disk?  I imagine the *ideal* would be to locate the swap
in the center of the media (?) -- assuming sectors correlate
with physical locations...
     Lastly, aren't the actual geometry related parameters for
the disktab "meaningless" for SCSI devices?

     Thanx!
--don

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 13:48:12 1997
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: How to program FLASH cards... ?
From: Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@dk.tfs.com>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:45:58 +0200
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I've got a 8Mb Intel "2+" flash card here, and just as a checkbox 
Item I'd like to make a block device driver for our PCMCIA support 
for it.  (This is not a ATA card, it's a "pure" flash device so the
wdc# driver will not work).

Now, does anybody know how one programs flash devices ?

I've never worked with flash before at this level and the 
documentation looks to me like I should have bought the 
master guide to the code book as well...

--
Poul-Henning Kamp           | phk@FreeBSD.ORG       FreeBSD Core-team.
http://www.freebsd.org/~phk | phk@login.dknet.dk    Private mailbox.
whois: [PHK]                | phk@tfs.com	    TRW Financial Systems, Inc.
Future will arrive by its own means, progress not so.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 13:55:56 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:02:06 -0700
From: fyeung@fyeung8.netific.com (Francis Yeung)
Message-Id: <9705152102.AA10443@fyeung8.netific.com>
To: terry@lambert.org, jlemon@americantv.com
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
Cc: rcarter@consys.com, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, fenyo@email.enst.fr,
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Greetings,

	These companies are so called supercomputer computers had no
intention to relate their business to any "day to day" computing. Their
machines were very target oriented and proprietary. 

	On the other hand, a cluster computing solution may solve a lot
of our scalability problems. What if our FreeBSD users want to enhance the performance of 
their Web servers, xxxDES computation, database applications etc.
An inexpensive cluster solution like the hypercube type will be very useful.

	You can get 100Mbps Ethernet NIC for $35 today. If the ATM
folks don't fool around with their hypes, we may see an inexpensive
OC12 ATM NIC soon (I may be dreaming too soon). 

If we believe that the local network can be the I/O bus, the clustering solution
 based on generic networking technology is worth for consideration.


	my 2 cents.

	Francis

> > I think the list of successes so vastly outnumbers the list of
> > failures that your parenthetical "nearly" is *way* out of place
> > here.
> 
> Hmm... let's see failures:
> 
>     Denelcor
>     Kendall Square Research
>     Multiflow
>     Cydrome
>     CDC
>     Convex		(aborbed by HP)
>     Burroughs Scientific
>     Scientific Computer Systems
>     Floating Point Systems
>     Supertek		(bought out by Cray Research)
>     Alliant
>     Myrias
>     Tera		(okay, so not dead, but not producing anything)
>     ...etc
>     
> This doesn't include companies that attempted to sell parallel computers,
> but eventually shut that division down, eg: Evans and Sutherland, BBN,
> and others.
>        
> Cray Research is effectively gone, having been absorbed by SGI, right?
> I'd say that Thinking Machines is on it's way out as well; the CM-5 is 
> obsolete, and I don't see a replacement on it's way.  Goodyear isn't 
> still building MPP's either, AFAIK.
> 
> That's not a long list of sucesses.
> --
> Jonathan
> 
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 14:00:38 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:12:10 +0100
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Terry Lambert wrote:

> This is not to say the situation is hopeless; you *could* crank up the
> sequential I/O performance of mmap(), at a cost of a save and compare
> in the general page fault case.  What would have to happen is the vnode
> would have to notice on one fault that the page faulted immediately
> before for the same vnode was the immediately previous page, and then
> it would predictively "fault ahead" instead of the block I/O subsystem
> noting that the read is sequentialy and predictively faulting ahead.
> 
> Maybe you can convince John Dyson that coding this would be fun (it
> might even actually *be* fun 8-)), and then checking the degradation
> this causes in the general case to see if it's unacceptably high for
> your special case.

I can't see that this would be a high cost.  You'd only tell the real
benefit on a loaded system anyway.

Could you even use the simpler and hugely kludgy approach of 'if the
faulting process' descriptor has sequential access, then fault the next
<n> pages' where <n> is some tunable value?

Factor 2 degradation seems a big hit, particularly when using a
technique
that 'should' be efficient, but maybe this would be cheap and remove
much of
the performance hit?

The technique you mention is more along the lines of one that one might
use for cases where the MADV_SEQUENTIAL 'hint' has NOT been given and
you still want a heuristic to identify when sequential access is
nevertheless
occuring locally, as might be the case with (say) a DBMS.  In this case,
the hint is plainly given and you might act on it more directly.

What happens for executable image pages?  Do those get any readahead
now?

> 
>                                         Regards,
>                                         Terry Lambert
>                                         terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.

James

-- 
Westongold Ltd                 C++/Java
 Multithread development and libraries
+44 1920 444284     info@westongold.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 14:07:02 1997
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Hi,

has anyone got UDP/TCP throughtput figures on FreeBSD for fast ethernet 
cards...specifically the 3com and Intel Ether Express cards.

thanks,

Anne


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 14:07:44 1997
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On May 05, 1997 at 12:54:25PM -0700, Russell L. Carter wrote:
> Of all of the efforts the only ones that evidently are/were successful
> as a business are Teradata and IBM's .

Sequent would probably take exception to that.  They may not be that
large, but they are pretty successful, and have a pretty good line of
machines.  Their latest NUMA/SCI-based endeavor looks to be pretty good
too.

Data General also makes a SCI machine that competes with Sequent, I don't
know how well they are doing.
--
Jonathan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 14:13:07 1997
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From: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
To: jgrosch@sirius.com
Cc: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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On May 05, 1997 at 01:18:16PM -0700, Josef Grosch wrote:
> showcase their technical mastery to loose money while the remainder of the
> organization does very well. Fujitsu's mainframe division is doing very
> well, eating Amdahl's lunch.

Eating their lunch?  Fujitsu owns 49% of Amdahl.  All chip fabrication and
masking for Amdahl machines is done in FJ's labs.  In fact, any Amdahl 
machine after the 5995M is not even designed by Amdahl any more, it is 
designed by FJ, and re-marketed by Amdahl.

Amdahl doesn't really have a mainframe business any more, it's FJ's business.
They aren't even independent any more, having been partially swallowed up 
by Sun, IIRC.
--
Jonathan  (who quit working at Amdahl after the 5995M was completed)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 14:20:40 1997
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
To: black@zen.cypher.net (Ben Black)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 14:10:41 -0700 (MST)
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> urm, as far as i know TMC is quite dead.  the CM-5 was the last machine 
> they built.

They aren't dead, they're just in Massachusetts, which is very similar.


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 14:24:49 1997
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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> Hey clusters are a fine approach to distributed problems, but parallelism 
> across physically distributed systems has not succeeded often enough to
> merit more than the merest blip in the computing industry.

How many people would class the World Wide Web itself as a successful
(though asymmetric) distributed cluster?

How about "web farms", which are generally symmetric, but grossly
load balanced via DNS rotor... do they count as clusters?

How about the DNS services themselves?

Lotus Notes server replication, anyone?

NetWare 4.x NDS?

NetWare SFT (Software Fault Tolernace)?

The Wolf Mountain Group (as sued by Novell)?

Tuxedo transaction processing system?

The World Bank?


					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 14:37:49 1997
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From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
To: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, Jonathan Lemon wrote:

> On May 05, 1997 at 01:55:53PM -0700, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
> > Parallel computing is not cost effective,
> 
> Hmm.  Show references please.  You might want to check out a paper that
> discusses this issue:
> 
It's my personal conclusion with the systems we have on campus. We have an
SP2, with 4 processors (which in theory is the best price/performance you
can get) and the guys that handle it report it isn't fast and that they
need more resources for it.
I must admit that even with all the courses they have received from IBM
they have showed to be very incompetent in different areas, but with all
those IBM engineers coming in and out (my campus is very important in a
national level) for about two years now, I would expect more results.
Maybe parallel computing is cost effective but I haven't noticed it :(.

>     D.Wood and M.Hill, "Cost-Effective Parallel Computing",
>         IEEE Computer, Feb 1995
>
Thanks for the reference...I'll look for it.

	Pedro.

> --
> Jonathan
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 14:39:06 1997
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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Cc: terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> >> > scientific process could take nearly 1/6 of the time on a fast network).
> >>                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> 
> >> The difference between "could" and "does" is the
> >> reason for the failure of (nearly) every business unit that sold
> >> highly parallel/cluster systems.

[ ... ]

> I am going to have to disagree with you here, Terry. While the above
> mentioned companys produced, in their time, insanely great machines (say
> the words "Cray XMP" to a fluid dynamics person such as my father and watch
> them drool) as a profit making company they have not fared as well
> post-cold war as they did during the Reagan buildup.

Failure for lack of profit does not mean that the technology wasn't
there, which is what he was implying.  Otherwise your father wouldn't
be drooling.

Pointing at failures also does not make your case for you; you have to
prove that there are *no* successes.  The "nearly" was a parenthetical,
which is a typical CYA move meaning "I'm not 100% sure"... that's what
it means when I use it that way, and it should be taken that way: as
an indicator of confidence.

The difference between "could" and "does" has no bearing on the
success or failure of the company for non-technology reasons; the
failure of the company is not indicative of a large gap between
"could" and "does", as was implied.

This is silly.  You can point at a long list of technical successes
which failed for non-technical reasons.  Start with Beta losing to
VHS, and somewhere in the middle, find Apple, Xerox, and Bell Labs
losing to Microsoft.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 14:58:34 1997
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From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Cc: "Russell L. Carter" <rcarter@consys.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:
> 
> How many people would class the World Wide Web itself as a successful
> (though asymmetric) distributed cluster?
> 
None. Unless you count proxy catching, they web servers don't communicate
with each other.
Perhaps the united nations could be considered a cluster. **sight**

		Pedro.
> 
> 
> 					Terry Lambert
> 					terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.
> 


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> 	You can get 100Mbps Ethernet NIC for $35 today. If the ATM
> folks don't fool around with their hypes, we may see an inexpensive
> OC12 ATM NIC soon (I may be dreaming too soon). 

I haven't seen any sign of inexpensive 155 Mbps ATM NICs, why do you
think inexpensive 622 Mbps ones are coming soon?

Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 15:07:46 1997
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From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com>
Message-Id: <199705152200.PAA20921@superior.mooseriver.com>
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
In-Reply-To: <19970515161439.54599@right.PCS> from Jonathan Lemon at "May 15, 97 04:14:39 pm"
To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 15:00:10 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: jgrosch@sirius.com, terry@lambert.org, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Jonathan Lemon said:
>On May 05, 1997 at 01:18:16PM -0700, Josef Grosch wrote:
>> showcase their technical mastery to loose money while the remainder of the
>> organization does very well. Fujitsu's mainframe division is doing very
>> well, eating Amdahl's lunch.
>
>Eating their lunch?  Fujitsu owns 49% of Amdahl.  All chip fabrication and
>masking for Amdahl machines is done in FJ's labs.  In fact, any Amdahl 
>machine after the 5995M is not even designed by Amdahl any more, it is 
>designed by FJ, and re-marketed by Amdahl.
>
>Amdahl doesn't really have a mainframe business any more, it's FJ's business.
>They aren't even independent any more, having been partially swallowed up 
>by Sun, IIRC.

Thank you. I stand corrected.

Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch        |   Another day closer to a   |    FreeBSD 2.2.1
jgrosch@sirius.com  |     Micro$oft free world    | UNIX for the masses


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 15:39:02 1997
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From: Søren Schmidt <sos@sos.freebsd.dk>
Message-Id: <199705152239.AAA17476@sos.freebsd.dk>
Subject: bidirectional PPP possible ??
To: hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
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I have a problem...

I want to have my PPP connection to my ISP demand dialed both ways, 
ie the one who has some packets to deliver opens the line.

I have it sortof running by using a ppp -auto as my demand dialer,
and having a ppp hanging off a ppp aware getty on the same modem.

The problem is that the -auto ppp set a default route, which
points to tun0, now when a call comes in its answered and the ppp
comes up on tun1 which should now be the default, and as expected
this doesn't work :(
If I kill the ppp -auto when the call comes in, it works, but
I cannot get it to start a new one on exit, so I'm lost again...

I have fixed IP# in both ends (which I can control), and I need
to route my little network over the line.

Any ideas ?? sombody have this working ??

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt               (sos@FreeBSD.org)               FreeBSD Core Team
                Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 15:42:36 1997
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From: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: "Russell L. Carter" <rcarter@consys.com>, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:

> > Hey clusters are a fine approach to distributed problems, but parallelism 
> > across physically distributed systems has not succeeded often enough to
> > merit more than the merest blip in the computing industry.
> 
> How many people would class the World Wide Web itself as a successful
> (though asymmetric) distributed cluster?

  Umm... different class of task, it doesn't "scale" to handle anything
but independent services referencing each other for clients. "Internal"
traffic in that system is limited to search engines, but both distributed
and "single large box" approaches coexist among them.

> How about "web farms", which are generally symmetric, but grossly
> load balanced via DNS rotor... do they count as clusters?

  Those ones are designed to limit transfers between them, and at most
have remote filesystem (so all their processing power is used to handle
slow TCP/IP over the internet and convert requests to fast one across LAN
to single fileserver) or, more sane approach, syncronized local file
storage (so they handle TCP/IP and fast local file I/O), or, run the same
set of programs/modules/cgi/... on all boxes (and have rather unusual for
clusters limitation that everything should be done locally).

  I've made HTTP server that can distribute requests between processes
running on other hosts by round-robin'ing and applying rules
(cookies/sessions/...), but I don't think, that's a real cluster
functionality -- while that system requires fast connections between boxes
and large amount of traffic is internal for it, the topology is limited to
star-like one -- other kinds of topology can be in theory used in such
system, but it's incomparably harder, and I've never seen it done that
way.

> How about the DNS services themselves?

  Closer, but still topology limitations and purpose,/design not anyhow
related to high-performance systems that benefit from connections to
increase processing ability. Still good distributed storage/search system.

--
Alex


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 15:50:13 1997
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>>>>> "Julian" == Julian Elischer <julian@whistle.com> writes:

 Julian> except that SOME systems use SGID on a dir to mean "Do not inherrit
 Julian> group from this directory"

Just about every single non-BSD Unix uses SGID to mean *DO* inherit
group from the directory. I think this is even in the X/Open specs.

-- 
Andrew.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 16:19:12 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 18:18:58 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, Christoph Kukulies wrote:

> What is the period under which the mailing list db is updated on
> www.freebsd.org?

Rather infrequent.  I just started an update.  It takes several
hours to re-build the indexes.

-john


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 16:20:46 1997
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Subject: Re: mmap()
To: james@westongold.com (James Mansion)
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> > Maybe you can convince John Dyson that coding this would be fun (it
> > might even actually *be* fun 8-)), and then checking the degradation
> > this causes in the general case to see if it's unacceptably high for
> > your special case.
> 
> I can't see that this would be a high cost.  You'd only tell the real
> benefit on a loaded system anyway.

It would have a cost higher than not doing it (ie: non-zero).  Using
mmap() and then doing sequential I/O is probably a very limited market,
so John would have to amke a decision to accept the non-0 degradation
on that basis.

I'm not saying that it's unlikely, only that there *is* a trade involved,
and so a decision tobe made.


> Could you even use the simpler and hugely kludgy approach of 'if the
> faulting process' descriptor has sequential access, then fault the next
> <n> pages' where <n> is some tunable value?

This would lead to bursty operation without high and low watermarks...
and you are back to storing the last page for that compare.


> Factor 2 degradation seems a big hit, particularly when using a
> technique that 'should' be efficient, but maybe this would be cheap
> and remove much of the performance hit?

Well, it's a "not doing an optimization" hit, not a "doing something
wrong hit".  Frankly, sequentially accessing mmap()'ed data is... wierd.

8-).

Like I said, best bet is to talk to John (or do it yourself).



> The technique you mention is more along the lines of one that one might
> use for cases where the MADV_SEQUENTIAL 'hint' has NOT been given and
> you still want a heuristic to identify when sequential access is
> nevertheless occuring locally, as might be the case with (say) a DBMS.

Yes.

> In this case, the hint is plainly given and you might act on it more
> directly.

Yes again; but you then add a compare for the hint, and still need to
save the last value, and compare it if the hint is set.  I guess it
saves you the save in the general case.

Really, I think the hit is negligible; however, it's not my decision to
make, no matter what.  I'm just suggesting possible approaches to the
problem.


> What happens for executable image pages?  Do those get any readahead
> now?

No.  You'd think data pages, would, though.  Datapage might benefit from
this optimization as well, so you may be able to sell it that way.  It's
just that your case is odd, so it's not likely to attract a lot of effort
to optimize.  I'd suggest you make the changes yourself, if you can, and
then see what it does as far as performance.


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 18:27:02 1997
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Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:16:39 -0700
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia
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To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
CC: "Ron G. Minnich" <rminnich@Sarnoff.COM>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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Jason Thorpe wrote:
> 
> ...MOSIX is distributed as diffs against BSD/OS.  The only .o files
> should be the Myrinet drivers, which are source-available from Myricom.
> 
Actually there could be something more, because they explicitly asked me
if they were forced to include the sources ala GPL.
The hard part is probably in the kernel patches, but the version they
distribute (MO6) will crash if it finds more than six nodes. In their
campus they run a cluster with 60 Pentiums and PPros.

	Pedro.

> MOSIX doesn't require Myrinet, but the high-bandwidth provided by Myrinet
> is nice for the process migration facility.
> 
> Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
> NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
> NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
> Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 19:14:17 1997
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From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: sthaug@nethelp.no
cc: fyeung@fyeung8.netific.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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and why would you want to use something as inefficient as ATM for a 
cluster interconnect?

On Fri, 16 May 1997 sthaug@nethelp.no wrote:

> > 	You can get 100Mbps Ethernet NIC for $35 today. If the ATM
> > folks don't fool around with their hypes, we may see an inexpensive
> > OC12 ATM NIC soon (I may be dreaming too soon). 
> 
> I haven't seen any sign of inexpensive 155 Mbps ATM NICs, why do you
> think inexpensive 622 Mbps ones are coming soon?
> 
> Steinar Haug, Nethelp consulting, sthaug@nethelp.no
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 19:14:39 1997
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From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: Jonathan Lemon <jlemon@americantv.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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the SP2 is probably a bad example.  MCI here just replaced theirs with a 
pair of Ultra Enterprise 6000s and performance is great.  the moral is: 
one parallel computer does not benchmark for them all.


b3n

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> On Thu, 15 May 1997, Jonathan Lemon wrote:
> 
> > On May 05, 1997 at 01:55:53PM -0700, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
> > > Parallel computing is not cost effective,
> > 
> > Hmm.  Show references please.  You might want to check out a paper that
> > discusses this issue:
> > 
> It's my personal conclusion with the systems we have on campus. We have an
> SP2, with 4 processors (which in theory is the best price/performance you
> can get) and the guys that handle it report it isn't fast and that they
> need more resources for it.
> I must admit that even with all the courses they have received from IBM
> they have showed to be very incompetent in different areas, but with all
> those IBM engineers coming in and out (my campus is very important in a
> national level) for about two years now, I would expect more results.
> Maybe parallel computing is cost effective but I haven't noticed it :(.
> 
> >     D.Wood and M.Hill, "Cost-Effective Parallel Computing",
> >         IEEE Computer, Feb 1995
> >
> Thanks for the reference...I'll look for it.
> 
> 	Pedro.
> 
> > --
> > Jonathan
> > 
> 

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What of the whole Inktomi/Hotbot clustering systems?  What are these based
on?  I believe this came from a Berkely project...

Charles

On 14 May 1997, Alex Fenyo (eowyn) wrote:

> "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> writes:
> > For some strange reason I was looking at BSDI's web and I found the
> > Multicomputer Operating System fo Unix "MOSIX":
> > http://www.cnds.jhu.edu/mirrors/mosix/
> > It would be worthwhile to convince them to support FreeBSD, and they are
> > probably interested anyway. Has anyone contacted them? (I emailed but I
> > think it's aabbath over there).
> 
> I don't know the status of MOSIX, but for your information, there is
> another multi-computer parallel machine based on FreeBSD, made in
> France by a collaboration of different universities.
> 
> This low cost/high performance parallel computer, named MPC, is based
> on a network of CPU boards running a modified version of FreeBSD (new
> kernel services, modifications and additions of new functionnalities
> in the VM subsystem, and new drivers for the interconnection
> network). The boards are interconnected with a custom interconnection
> network of routers, developped at UPMC, each router containing 8
> full-duplex 1 GigaBit/s asynchronous serial links.
> 
> Infomations available at http://cao-vlsi.ibp.fr/mpc/index.gb.html
> 
> Alexandre Fenyo
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 20:05:41 1997
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To: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>
cc: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>,
        "Russell L. Carter" <rcarter@consys.com>,
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 May 1997 15:49:54 PDT."
             <Pine.LNX.3.95.970515151713.6118D-100000@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us> 
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:04:47 -0700
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Bah.

We can debate all the various different models of load-sharing which
might, in academic terms, be termed "clustering" but it nonetheless
misses the point.  True clustering, if the variety which FreeBSD
really needs (IMHO), is distinguished by one principle characteristic:
Total transparency.

None of the mechanisms being discussed here are even remotely close
to that.

						Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 20:35:43 1997
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Cc: "Ron G. Minnich" <rminnich@sarnoff.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
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On Thu, 15 May 1997 20:16:39 -0700 
 "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> wrote:

 > Actually there could be something more, because they explicitly asked me
 > if they were forced to include the sources ala GPL.
 > The hard part is probably in the kernel patches, but the version they
 > distribute (MO6) will crash if it finds more than six nodes. In their
 > campus they run a cluster with 60 Pentiums and PPros.

...right, and the reason for this is fairly obvious: you don't want
the Bad Guys(tm) getting a supercomputer.

Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939

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        Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>,
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
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On Thu, 15 May 1997 20:04:47 -0700 
 "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com> wrote:

 > Total transparency.
 > 
 > None of the mechanisms being discussed here are even remotely close
 > to that.

MOSIX most certainly _does_.

Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 20:44:10 1997
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From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: spork <spork@super-g.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95q.970515230232.17998A-100000@super-g.inch.com>
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myrinet, same as the 60 machine MOSIX cluster in israel.

the berkeley project that spawened hotbot was called NOW (network of 
workstations)

On Thu, 15 May 1997, spork wrote:

> What of the whole Inktomi/Hotbot clustering systems?  What are these based
> on?  I believe this came from a Berkely project...
> 
> Charles
> 
> On 14 May 1997, Alex Fenyo (eowyn) wrote:
> 
> > "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> writes:
> > > For some strange reason I was looking at BSDI's web and I found the
> > > Multicomputer Operating System fo Unix "MOSIX":
> > > http://www.cnds.jhu.edu/mirrors/mosix/
> > > It would be worthwhile to convince them to support FreeBSD, and they are
> > > probably interested anyway. Has anyone contacted them? (I emailed but I
> > > think it's aabbath over there).
> > 
> > I don't know the status of MOSIX, but for your information, there is
> > another multi-computer parallel machine based on FreeBSD, made in
> > France by a collaboration of different universities.
> > 
> > This low cost/high performance parallel computer, named MPC, is based
> > on a network of CPU boards running a modified version of FreeBSD (new
> > kernel services, modifications and additions of new functionnalities
> > in the VM subsystem, and new drivers for the interconnection
> > network). The boards are interconnected with a custom interconnection
> > network of routers, developped at UPMC, each router containing 8
> > full-duplex 1 GigaBit/s asynchronous serial links.
> > 
> > Infomations available at http://cao-vlsi.ibp.fr/mpc/index.gb.html
> > 
> > Alexandre Fenyo
> > 
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 20:46:09 1997
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From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
cc: Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>,
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
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from reading the MOSIX docs it seems it *is* totally transparent and that 
was one of their primary goals.  MOSIX migrates processes mased on 
resource use and handles connecting STDIN, STDOUT, and other resources 
back to the "home node".  when a process is migrated, nobody should 
notice anything but better performance.


b3n


On Thu, 15 May 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> Bah.
> 
> We can debate all the various different models of load-sharing which
> might, in academic terms, be termed "clustering" but it nonetheless
> misses the point.  True clustering, if the variety which FreeBSD
> really needs (IMHO), is distinguished by one principle characteristic:
> Total transparency.
> 
> None of the mechanisms being discussed here are even remotely close
> to that.
> 
> 						Jordan
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 21:23:23 1997
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From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>,
        "Ron G. Minnich" <rminnich@sarnoff.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
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yes, since the bad guys are all too stupid to hack it to allow unlimited 
CPUs.  guess again, please.

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Jason Thorpe wrote:

> On Thu, 15 May 1997 20:16:39 -0700 
>  "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> wrote:
> 
>  > Actually there could be something more, because they explicitly asked me
>  > if they were forced to include the sources ala GPL.
>  > The hard part is probably in the kernel patches, but the version they
>  > distribute (MO6) will crash if it finds more than six nodes. In their
>  > campus they run a cluster with 60 Pentiums and PPros.
> 
> ...right, and the reason for this is fairly obvious: you don't want
> the Bad Guys(tm) getting a supercomputer.
> 
> Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
> NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
> NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
> Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 21:24:59 1997
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        Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>,
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 May 1997 20:28:20 PDT."
             <199705160328.UAA26482@lestat.nas.nasa.gov> 
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 21:24:20 -0700
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> On Thu, 15 May 1997 20:04:47 -0700 
>  "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com> wrote:
> 
>  > Total transparency.
>  > 
>  > None of the mechanisms being discussed here are even remotely close
>  > to that.
> 
> MOSIX most certainly _does_.

Well, OK, I was referring more to the recently discussed DNS
round-robin tricks and such.

And my replies to the MOSIX folk talking about how they might
integrate their changes with FreeBSD have gone unanswered, this and
some of the other things they said in earlier communication leading me
to suspect that they have more commercial intentions in mind and thus
probably won't be a truly viable option for *BSD anyway.

					Jordan

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 21:39:34 1997
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        "Ron G. Minnich" <rminnich@sarnoff.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
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On Fri, 16 May 1997 00:20:58 -0400 (EDT) 
 Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net> wrote:

 > yes, since the bad guys are all too stupid to hack it to allow unlimited 
 > CPUs.  guess again, please.

Then perhaps you can suggest a motive for limiting it to 6 nodes.  I guess
you can hack MO6 to remove the limitation too, yes?

The last time I spoke with Dr. BARAK about this, an NDA was required
to get the information necessary to remove the limit, and his reasons
for it were fairly clear.

Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 21:42:29 1997
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
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the current RC5 distributed cracking effort shows quite clearly that 
something as advanced as MOSIX is not required.  if his logic is that bad 
guys will use MOSIX to crack encryption brute force then he is fooling 
himself.

On Thu, 15 May 1997, Jason Thorpe wrote:

> On Fri, 16 May 1997 00:20:58 -0400 (EDT) 
>  Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net> wrote:
> 
>  > yes, since the bad guys are all too stupid to hack it to allow unlimited 
>  > CPUs.  guess again, please.
> 
> Then perhaps you can suggest a motive for limiting it to 6 nodes.  I guess
> you can hack MO6 to remove the limitation too, yes?
> 
> The last time I spoke with Dr. BARAK about this, an NDA was required
> to get the information necessary to remove the limit, and his reasons
> for it were fairly clear.
> 
> Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
> NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
> NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
> Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 21:57:20 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:55:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Matthew N. Dodd" <winter@jurai.net>
To: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>,
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, Ben Black wrote:
> from reading the MOSIX docs it seems it *is* totally transparent and that 
> was one of their primary goals.  MOSIX migrates processes mased on 
> resource use and handles connecting STDIN, STDOUT, and other resources 
> back to the "home node".  when a process is migrated, nobody should 
> notice anything but better performance.

Check out the whitepapers on Sprite.

Single system image would be really nifty and if CCD could be extended to
do ZebraFS like things...

Anyhow back to reality.

/*
   Matthew N. Dodd		| A memory retaining a love you had for life	
   winter@jurai.net		| As cruel as it seems nothing ever seems to
   http://www.jurai.net/~winter | go right - FLA M 3.1:53	
*/


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 22:20:49 1997
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: black@zen.cypher.net
CC: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
        rminnich@sarnoff.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <Pine.LNX.3.91.970516003914.15211E-100000@zen.cypher.net>
	(message from Ben Black on Fri, 16 May 1997 00:40:13 -0400 (EDT))
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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   Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:40:13 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>

   the current RC5 distributed cracking effort shows quite clearly
   that something as advanced as MOSIX is not required.  if his logic
   is that bad guys will use MOSIX to crack encryption brute force
   then he is fooling himself.

And besides, as far as MO6 goes, all I have to say is that adb is your
friend...

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 22:25:16 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 01:22:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
        rminnich@sarnoff.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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i think the real reason for the 6 CPU limit has been suggested.  
commercial release.  note the lack of black helicopters for that explanation.


b3n

On Fri, 16 May 1997, David S. Miller wrote:

>    Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:40:13 -0400 (EDT)
>    From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
> 
>    the current RC5 distributed cracking effort shows quite clearly
>    that something as advanced as MOSIX is not required.  if his logic
>    is that bad guys will use MOSIX to crack encryption brute force
>    then he is fooling himself.
> 
> And besides, as far as MO6 goes, all I have to say is that adb is your
> friend...
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 22:28:06 1997
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To: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>,
        "Ron G. Minnich" <rminnich@sarnoff.com>, hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
Reply-To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
From: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 22:14:17 -0700
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On Fri, 16 May 1997 00:40:13 -0400 (EDT) 
 Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net> wrote:

 > the current RC5 distributed cracking effort shows quite clearly that 
 > something as advanced as MOSIX is not required.  if his logic is that bad 
 > guys will use MOSIX to crack encryption brute force then he is fooling 
 > himself.

Who says Bad Guys(tm) only want to crack encryption?  In the environment
I come from, that's simply not a very interesting problem.

There are lots of more complex problems that a general purpose parallel
supercomputer might be good for.  We use them to solve fluid dynamics
problems.  I'm sure there are Bad Guys(tm) that might want to solve
problems with similar complexity.

There are typically export controls and/or cost factors that keep
Bad Guys(tm) from purchasing parallel supercomputers.  But, if they
can make a supercomputer out of parts that they can easily get, that's
potentially somthing to worry about.

Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 23:20:57 1997
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Message-ID: <19970516080214.GJ63731@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:02:14 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: newfs hangs my system?
References: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970512164812.12315A-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com> <199705130040.SAA18620@rocky.mt.sri.com>
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In-Reply-To: <199705130040.SAA18620@rocky.mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on May 12, 1997 18:40:36 -0600
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As Nate Williams wrote:

> > lambic:~ [12]->newfs -b 8192 -f 1024 /dev/ccd0c /a
> 
> Try:
> newfs -b 8192 -f 1024 /dev/rccd0c /a
>                            ^^^^^^
> 
> It shoudln't cause lockups to use the block device, but at least this
> should get you going.  (Note the "r" in front of the device.)

I've also heard several reports where people erroneously use a block
floppy device and hang or crash their system, while using the raw
device works.  May be a coincidence (and no, i don't claim this were
_not_ a floppy driver bug :).

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 23:21:03 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:05:15 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com (Brian N. Handy)
Subject: Re: newfs hangs my system?
References: <199705130305.VAA12333@pluto.plutotech.com> <Pine.OSF.3.96.970513073659.18335A-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com>
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As Brian N. Handy wrote:

> The man page for newfs is lame, IMHO.  There should be an example of newfs
> on that page that works.  If I knew what was a correct usage of newfs, I'd
> write one...

There are basically two forms of correct usage.  The general one is
just:

	newfs /dev/rsd1a

A more specific one, here for a floppy is:

	newfs -t 0 -u 0 -i 65536 -l 1 -m 3 /dev/rfd0

(assumes the floppy has been labelled with fd1440 etc.)

There's not much more you would need.
-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 23:23:19 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:13:35 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: URGENT:  Printing an X11 screen.  How?
References: <XFMail.970513000217.Shimon@i-Connect.Net>
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As Simon Shapiro wrote:

> Once upon a time there used to be an wwd-xwud-xpr and somethingtopbm that
> could print an X window or a portion thereof.

I think Xprt is for you, but:

j@uriah 65% Xprt
Fatal server error:
Server is already active for display 0
        If this server is no longer running, remove /tmp/.X0-lock
        and start again.

j@uriah 66% man Xprt
No manual entry for Xprt

...i never figured out how to use it.

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 23:23:27 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:20:06 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@freefall.FreeBSD.org
Subject: Re: top / nice level problem
References: <199705130810.KAA03359@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
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In-Reply-To: <199705130810.KAA03359@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de>; from Christoph Kukulies on May 13, 1997 10:10:53 +0200
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As Christoph Kukulies wrote:

> I'm running the bovrc client (http://vex.net/rsa) at nice level 20
> and a colleague is running another job at nice level 5.
> 
> Now he asks me: why does my job only get 50% of CPU while yours (at nice
> level 20 also gets 50%)?

Because we are unix.  If we were RSX-11 (or probably VMS, but i don't
know that), his job would get all the CPU whenever it's runnable, and
your bovrc would only get CPU slices as they are left.  Unix doesn't
use fixed priorities, but dynamically reprioritizes the jobs according
to their recent CPU usage.  If your bovrc occasionally waits for disk
IO and doesn't request the CPU all day, it will be higher prioritized
in the end whenever it needs the CPU.

I recently held a training course for Unix newbies, and made the
experiment to start this job twice in the background:

	while true; : ; done

One of them was reniced then, and the result was that the reniced job
still got 33 % of the CPU.  With a realtime operating system, it
wouldn't have got any CPU at all, since the other job was always
runnable.

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 23:35:37 1997
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: jkh@time.cdrom.com
CC: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us, terry@lambert.org, rcarter@consys.com,
        pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <20765.863751887@time.cdrom.com> (jkh@time.cdrom.com)
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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   Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 20:04:47 -0700
   From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>

   We can debate all the various different models of load-sharing
   which might, in academic terms, be termed "clustering" but it
   nonetheless misses the point.  True clustering, if the variety
   which FreeBSD really needs (IMHO), is distinguished by one
   principle characteristic: Total transparency.

   None of the mechanisms being discussed here are even remotely close
   to that.

So why don't you guys do a port of FreeBSD to a 128 processor Origin
2000?  NUMA is pretty transparent last time I checked ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 23:41:46 1997
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To: David Nugent <davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au>
cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: xdm in /usr/X11R6/etc/rc.d problem 
References: <199705141427.AAA00677@labs.usn.blaze.net.au>
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    from David Nugent at "Wed, 14 May 1997 14:27:33 +0000"
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:41:21 +1000
From: Stephen McKay <syssgm@dtir.qld.gov.au>
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On Wednesday, 14th May 1997, David Nugent wrote:

>Lastlogin (part of the 'utmp' package) was relative easy. Defining
>an extensible format for utmp/wtmp wasn't such a pushover,
>unfortunately, once I had thought through all of the issues.
>
>If I post the code I'm working on to you for comment, is anyone
>interested in looking at it?

Ooh!  Ooh!  Pick me!

I've been kicking myself every week for months now for not doing my version
of the utmp/wtmp stuff.  Please send your stuff to <mckay@freebsd.org>.

>Bear in mind that there's a time-frame
>to be kept with Xfree 3.3's impending release - we can either miss
>this completely and hope that there's another release prior FreeBSD
>3.0 (possible?) or we can finish the api now, so comments should be
>fast.

Forget trying to make the XFree86 3.3 deadline as the only result will be
a broken API set in concrete.  There will be another XFree86 release before
FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE.  I'll bet you my 386 PC on it! :-)

[Details of implementation zapped]

>wtmp, however, is another thing. We can't easily change the
>record size between reboots, because it just grows, and (right
>now at least) everything assumes a uniform record size. Adding
>more data to each record and we end up throwing out past
>records, which is imho unacceptible, and allocating lots of
>"spare" space to each record is an equally gross solution.

You could put the record size in the last field as well as the first.
Then reading backwards is easy.

>I think the best format for wtmp will be a standard text line-feed
>delimited file only...

If you go text only, then just mark the start of record with a unique
prefix.  In fact, I'm keen on an extensible text format for both
utmp and wtmp.  I'll send you more concrete comments when I see the code.

Stephen.

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Hi!

I'm getting the following panic about every 3 hours. The system is actually
unusable :-( (i hope i copied the messages correctly from the screen):

Fatal trap 12: page fault while in kernel mode
fault virtual address          = 0x1e
fault code                     = supervisor read, page not present
instruction pointer            = 0x8:0xf010c830
stack pointer                  = 0x10:0xf4122f30
frame pointer                  = 0x10:0xf4122f30
code segment                   = base 0x0, limit 0xfffff, type 0x1b
                               = DPL0 , pres 1 , def 321 , gran 1
processor eflags               = interrupt enabled, resum, IOPL = 0
current process                = 4 (update)
interrupt mask                 =
kernel: type 12 trap, code = 0

Stopped at _lockstatus+0x8:  cmpw $0,0x10(%edx)
-------------------trace--------------
ufs_islocked+0x15
vfs_msync+0x38
_sync+0x4c
_vfs_update+0x3b
_kproc_start+0x32
_fork_trampoline+0x1d

I'm running the latest -current. I have no idea how to reproduce this, but it
happens very frequently. Any ideas how to fix this? If you need some additional
info i'll try to provide it.

Best regards.
--------
 Gennady B. Sorokopud - System programmer at NetVision Israel.
 E-Mail: Gennady Sorokopud <gena@NetVision.net.il>
 PGP public key is available by fingering gena@netvision.net.il

 This message was sent at 16-May-97 09:40:02 by XFMail

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 23:47:20 1997
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From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
Message-Id: <199705160648.IAA04428@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
Subject: Re: throughtput measurements for fast ethernet
In-Reply-To: <199705152106.AA12023@zephyr.isi.edu> from Anne Hutton at "May 15, 97 02:06:03 pm"
To: hutton@ISI.EDU
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:48:13 +0200 (MEST)
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> Hi,
> 
> has anyone got UDP/TCP throughtput figures on FreeBSD for fast ethernet 
> cards...specifically the 3com and Intel Ether Express cards.

Someone told me some time ago when I was seeking for similar
figures (Garret ?) that FreeBSD can saturate 10/100 Mbit with appropriate
CPU power. The only interesting question would be CPU utilization during
transfer compared to other L-word OSs.


> 
> thanks,
> 
> Anne
> 
> 

--
Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 23:51:15 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:32:06 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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References: <199705140346.NAA26729@godzilla.zeta.org.au> <E0wRVrt-0006Yn-00@rover.village.org>
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As Warner Losh wrote:

> P.S. I was able to get FreeBSD installed on the latter last night
> (well, modulo the disk problems with the old 80M ESDI drives).  4M was
> too small and I was able to load the install program, but not execute
> any commands for want of swap space.  Didn't have 256K simms around to
> try to 5M or 6M machines.

FreeBSD 2.2 installed on my 386/sx-16 notebook with 5 MB, but is the
first FreeBSD release that experiences serious VM problems on it (sig
10/11 all over the place).

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 23:51:59 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:39:41 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: spaul@more.net (Paul Saab)
Subject: Re: HP NetServer 5/100 LS2
References: <199705131744.MAA03187@yogurt.apg.more.net>
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As Paul Saab wrote:

> I have a HP NetServer 5/100 LS2 which is running BSDi that I want
> to convert to FreeBSD.  I read the FAQ about the netserver and did
> what it said and the boot disk still does not detect the SCSI
> controllers.

The FAQ was about the Netserver LC.  (Good to know people are actually
reading the FAQ. :-)

> aic0 at pci0 irq 11 maddr 0xff9ff000-0xff9ff0ff
> aic0: initiator id 7, parity enabled
> aic0: delaying to permit certain devices to finish self-test

...this SCSI controller is on PCI, not on EISA as in the `LC'.  Hence
it must be a different problem.

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Thu May 15 23:52:20 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:42:40 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org (FreeBSD hackers)
Cc: spaul@more.net (Paul Saab)
Subject: Re: HP NetServer 5/100 LS2
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As Andrew Stesin wrote:

> Yes, I did a whlie ago (HP Netserver LC, 486 2/66).
> Whatever was written in the FAQ was 100% truth and worked. :)
> BUT: FAQ refers to 486+EISA based machines -> not your case.

Not only 486, there are also 586 Netserver LC machines.  But you're
right, it's for EISA.

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 00:29:40 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:28:05 +1000
From: David Dawes <dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au>
To: Joerg Wunsch <joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: URGENT:  Printing an X11 screen.  How?
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On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 08:13:35AM +0200, J Wunsch wrote:
>As Simon Shapiro wrote:
>
>> Once upon a time there used to be an wwd-xwud-xpr and somethingtopbm that
>> could print an X window or a portion thereof.
>
>I think Xprt is for you, but:
>
>j@uriah 65% Xprt
>Fatal server error:
>Server is already active for display 0
>        If this server is no longer running, remove /tmp/.X0-lock
>        and start again.
>
>j@uriah 66% man Xprt
>No manual entry for Xprt
>
>...i never figured out how to use it.

It is an X server, so you have to start it as a display which doesn't
clash with other servers you have running.  Try 'Xprt :1'.

It has drivers for PostScript and PCL, but I don't know how to make use
of it though.  There is a client-side library in R6.3 for the XPRINT
extension, but no sample clients (I think CDE makes use of it).

David

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 00:34:18 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:33:54 +0300 (EEST)
From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>
cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>,
        "Ron G. Minnich" <rminnich@sarnoff.com>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, Jason Thorpe wrote:

> On Thu, 15 May 1997 20:16:39 -0700 
>  "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co> wrote:
> 
>  > Actually there could be something more, because they explicitly asked me
>  > if they were forced to include the sources ala GPL.
>  > The hard part is probably in the kernel patches, but the version they
>  > distribute (MO6) will crash if it finds more than six nodes. In their
>  > campus they run a cluster with 60 Pentiums and PPros.
> 
> ...right, and the reason for this is fairly obvious: you don't want
> the Bad Guys(tm) getting a supercomputer.

No, they just want money in case you want to have more than six nodes. Or
it looked like that on their web page when I looked last time.

	Sander

> 
> Jason R. Thorpe                                       thorpej@nas.nasa.gov
> NASA Ames Research Center                               Home: 408.866.1912
> NAS: M/S 258-6                                          Work: 415.604.0935
> Moffett Field, CA 94035                                Pager: 415.428.6939
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 00:34:29 1997
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From: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>
To: kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE
CC: hutton@isi.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: <199705160648.IAA04428@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> (message from
	Christoph Kukulies on Fri, 16 May 1997 08:48:13 +0200 (MEST))
Subject: Re: throughtput measurements for fast ethernet
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   From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
   Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:48:13 +0200 (MEST)

   Someone told me some time ago when I was seeking for similar
   figures (Garret ?) that FreeBSD can saturate 10/100 Mbit with
   appropriate CPU power. The only interesting question would be CPU
   utilization during transfer compared to other L-word OSs.

I'd be more interested in seeing FreeBSD get low latencies, but as
long as you guys are bzero()'ing a structure on the stack of
tcp_input() for every packet that arrives just for T/TCP's sake, it
isn't going to happen.

---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s   ////
ethernet.  Beat that!                     ////
-----------------------------------------////__________  o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 00:39:35 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:39:12 +0200
From: Ollivier Robert <roberto@eurocontrol.fr>
To: "FreeBSD Hackers' list" <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Fwd: Perl 5.004 is available (yippee!)
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-----Forwarded message from Chip Salzenberg <chip@atlantic.net>-----

From: Chip Salzenberg <chip@atlantic.net>
Subject: Perl 5.004 is available (yippee!)
To: perl5-porters@perl.org (Perl 5 Porters)
Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 19:00:43 -0400 (EDT)

Yes, it's finally in the can!

    file: $CPAN/authors/id/CHIPS/perl5.004.tar.gz
    byte: 2456796
     md5: 2cd712c876038cce517db3a06042f94f

And there was much rejoicing.  ("yea")  We'll announce it when it's
had time to propagate to all the CPAN sites.

NOTE: DO NOT GET 5.004 FROM "ftp.cis.ufl.edu"!  I uploaded a file
named "perl5.004.tar.gz" to ufl, but that one doesn't include a
last-minute Win32 patch from Sarathy.  So you'll just have to grab
Perl 5.004 from a CPAN site like the rest of the world does.  :-,

BTW, if you're curious about changes since RC2:

    file: $CPAN/authors/id/CHIPS/p54.pat-from-rc2.gz
    byte: 7969
     md5: 7d2e6065ca132c6c1600ac5850a9d2a0

-- 
Chip Salzenberg           - a.k.a. -             <chip@pobox.com>
 "Vacation time.  Families travel east, west, north, or south."
 "Some just burrow straight down." -- Crow T. Robot   // MST3K

-----End of forwarded message-----

-- 
Ollivier ROBERT -=- Eurocontrol EEC/TS -=- Ollivier.Robert@eurocontrol.fr
FreeBSD caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr 3.0-CURRENT #5: Tue Apr 22 14:57:00 CEST 1997
roberto@caerdonn.eurocontrol.fr:/src/src/sys/compile/CAERDONN2  i386

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 00:52:35 1997
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From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
cc: hutton@ISI.EDU, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: throughtput measurements for fast ethernet
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Christoph Kukulies wrote:

> > Hi,
> > 
> > has anyone got UDP/TCP throughtput figures on FreeBSD for fast ethernet 
> > cards...specifically the 3com and Intel Ether Express cards.
> 
> Someone told me some time ago when I was seeking for similar
> figures (Garret ?) that FreeBSD can saturate 10/100 Mbit with appropriate
> CPU power. The only interesting question would be CPU utilization during
> transfer compared to other L-word OSs.
		       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

*Other* L-word OSs? In which sense would you describe FreeBSD as a L-word
OS? (or am I getting something wromg) :-)


	Sander
> 
> 
> > 
> > thanks,
> > 
> > Anne
> > 
> > 
> 
> --
> Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 01:44:00 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:27:50 +0300 (EEST)
From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
cc: James Mansion <james@westongold.com>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: mmap()
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:

> 
> It would have a cost higher than not doing it (ie: non-zero).  Using
> mmap() and then doing sequential I/O is probably a very limited market,
> so John would have to amke a decision to accept the non-0 degradation
> on that basis.
> 

Well, isn't grep doing the same? Mmap a file and then walk it line by line
and output the line matching the regular expression? Any program that
processes some kind of text file line by line will most probably express
the same kind of access pattern. 

I am not sure, but in case of several processes accessing one file using
MADV_WILLNEED / MADV_DONTNEED could perhaps help?

	Sander

By the way - in the source of grep, madvise(.. MADV_SEQUENCIAL ..) is
commented for being slover. I will give it a try...

[a huge snip]

> 
> 					Regards,
> 					Terry Lambert
> 					terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 01:50:03 1997
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Narvi wrote:

> 
> 
> On Thu, 15 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:
> 
> > 
> > It would have a cost higher than not doing it (ie: non-zero).  Using
> > mmap() and then doing sequential I/O is probably a very limited market,
> > so John would have to amke a decision to accept the non-0 degradation
> > on that basis.
> > 
> 
> Well, isn't grep doing the same? Mmap a file and then walk it line by line
> and output the line matching the regular expression? Any program that
> processes some kind of text file line by line will most probably express
> the same kind of access pattern. 
> 
> I am not sure, but in case of several processes accessing one file using
> MADV_WILLNEED / MADV_DONTNEED could perhaps help?
> 
> 	Sander
> 
> By the way - in the source of grep, madvise(.. MADV_SEQUENCIAL ..) is
> commented for being slover. I will give it a try...
> 

Well, FreeBSD grep doesn't use mmap, as HAVE_WORKING_MMAP is not defined
in the Makefile... 

	Sander

> [a huge snip]
> 
> > 
> > 					Regards,
> > 					Terry Lambert
> > 					terry@lambert.org
> > ---
> > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> > or previous employers.
> > 
> 
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 02:51:29 1997
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Subject: Re: stars screen saver problem... (oops)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.95.970515113410.11512D-100000@adam.adonai.net> from Lee Crites at "May 15, 97 11:40:40 am"
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 11:51:11 +0200 (MET DST)
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Hello,

> Sorry, I must not have been clear enough.  I found what needed to be
> changed to get the screen saver working.  The problem is now that is is
> working, all it is doing is changing the one byte at (0,0) on the
> screen.  When it kicks on (after 300 seconds), I see spot (0,0) to wild
> with flashing characters and nothing else is changed.

I remember that I had this problem some months ago for a short time. It
became apperant when there were changes done to the syscons driver in
the kernel and I forgot to rebuild my lkms, so they were slightly out of
date. The problem went away when I rebuilt them.

-- 
             Sascha Blank - mailto:blank@fox.uni-trier.de
  Student and System Administrator at the University of Trier, Germany
            Finger my account to receive my Public PGP key
   I don't speak for my employers, they don't pay me enough for that.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 04:04:23 1997
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re the crays: 
cray research, founded in the '70s, builders of the cray 1 etc., bought 
by SGI. 

Cray computer corp., found ca 1988, RIP 1994. I know this 'cause my wife
was writing a compiler for the cray3/PIM machine, and i still have the WSJ
article on my bulletin board from when CCC died as well as a cray-4 poster
on my wall. 

SRC computers, founded a while back by SRC himself, still kicking as of a 
month or two ago (i hear) although sadly minus its founder. 

ron

Ron Minnich                |"I would point them out but ...
rminnich@sarnoff.com       |  I have no hands." -- Coconut Monkey
(609)-734-3120             | (see CM at www.pcgamer.com/coconut.html)
ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 04:41:14 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 06:40:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: Justen Stepka <raistlin@chaos.winternet.com>
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On Wed, 14 May 1997, Amancio Hasty wrote:

> there oh you where saying . I see ..
> 
> Well, I just finished watching star trek: voyager at 640x480 32bits with my
>  S3 968 Picture is not bad at all 8)
> 
> Tnks Michael for your kind offer . I suspect that the Millenium has
> a silly register which we can set so we can achieved the pixel order
> that I want.

> Yes, Indeed. My Wincast/TV has a tuner and dbx stereo decoding so sound
> is good and the tuner is a nice future -- you know for surfing the TV  ...


What port are you using for control of the TV/Cable options on the
controler? About 2 weeks ago I posted a message but didin't get an answer
from anyone :).


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 05:40:46 1997
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Terry Lambert wrote:
> 
> > > Maybe you can convince John Dyson that coding this would be fun (it
> > > might even actually *be* fun 8-)), and then checking the degradation
> > > this causes in the general case to see if it's unacceptably high for
> > > your special case.
> >
> > I can't see that this would be a high cost.  You'd only tell the real
> > benefit on a loaded system anyway.
> 
> It would have a cost higher than not doing it (ie: non-zero).  Using
> mmap() and then doing sequential I/O is probably a very limited market,

I disagree that there is a limited market.  If you have BLOB data stored
in
an RDBMS then I'd think it quite likely that you'll access sequential
pages,
same for any sort of table or index scan.  I can't see that it makes
much
sense to COPY data into memory that has been allocated swap space if you
don't
need to.  Of course, in such cases you might not have given the
sequential
hint and such a heuristic as you describe is more valuable in this case.

I'd also expect it to be a worthwhile technique for web servers and FTP
servers.

> so John would have to amke a decision to accept the non-0 degradation
> on that basis.

I take issue with moans about 'it costs more than zero' and
being so defensive about a few cycles.  Its not the first time this
attitude
is apperent on this list.

Consider this case:
 - you have a store with every page in
 - you have a decision with every page in on whether to start another
   (maybe several) reads

These decisions will take a few branches only.  How long - a
microsecond?
10 microsoeconds?  This is for an operation which is going to a hardware
device FFS!

I know that VM pagein code is used a lot, but how much of the total of
(say) ftp.cdrom.com is in this code?  Say 5%?  Heck, you could add 20%
to
the code path before you get a 'measurable' difference of 1%.  (And do I
believe its 5%?  No.  It'll be less than this).

The same argument applies to the single SMP binary case - if the kernel
is 10% of the load profile and you degrade the whole lot by 10% (which
is
a LOT for this sort of thing) you'll get a massive hit of a whole 1%. 
Big
deal.

We *know* that the Linux kernel is relatively unaffected by compiler
optimisation levels providing that the obvious frame-pointer expense
isn't
incurred, and there are suggestions that changes to eg register calling
will
still have negligible effect, so it is somewhat unlikely that minor
algorithms
of this sort are going to hurt.  Its much more likely in my view that
the
kind of graph closure coding that you propose for a fine grained SMP
system
will have a measurable impact.

Please, people, be reasonable in your opposition to extending code
paths.
Its not bad if the cost is low and you get material benefits, and its
quite
easy to estimate upper bounds for the user-level hit that you'd see for
most things.

> 
> I'm not saying that it's unlikely, only that there *is* a trade involved,
> and so a decision tobe made.

Sure, but let's keep things in perspective.  Knee-jerk reaction seems to
be
'there's a cost!  There's a cost!'.  Clearly there is, and clearly
there's
no gain without some (small) pain.

> 
> > Could you even use the simpler and hugely kludgy approach of 'if the
> > faulting process' descriptor has sequential access, then fault the next
> > <n> pages' where <n> is some tunable value?
> 
> This would lead to bursty operation without high and low watermarks...
> and you are back to storing the last page for that compare.

Well, not necessarily, if the 'follow-on' pages are faulted using a
low-level facility that DOESN'T make this decision.  You'll only
start another multi-page read when you miss the current set.

Conceivably you could fault them all in in a synchronous operation.

Hopefully this would fit well with the layout of files on disk, and
you could limit it to a read of data from the same track or cylinder
so that the extra cost in terms of IO will be low.  Its only an advisory
optimisation anyway.

> 
> > Factor 2 degradation seems a big hit, particularly when using a
> > technique that 'should' be efficient, but maybe this would be cheap
> > and remove much of the performance hit?
> 
> Well, it's a "not doing an optimization" hit, not a "doing something
> wrong hit".  Frankly, sequentially accessing mmap()'ed data is... wierd.

Its not wrong by any means, and is quite common if you have to work on
large files (say, larger than core) that you will normally scan but may
also seek in.  Dumb to make the swapper work hard if you are just doing
read-only access.

Its also the case that you might have these large data stores shared
between
multiple processes and reading chunks into private swappable memory
seems
doubly wasteful in this case.

> 
> 8-).
> 
> Like I said, best bet is to talk to John (or do it yourself).
> 
> > The technique you mention is more along the lines of one that one might
> > use for cases where the MADV_SEQUENTIAL 'hint' has NOT been given and
> > you still want a heuristic to identify when sequential access is
> > nevertheless occuring locally, as might be the case with (say) a DBMS.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > In this case, the hint is plainly given and you might act on it more
> > directly.
> 
> Yes again; but you then add a compare for the hint, and still need to
> save the last value, and compare it if the hint is set.  I guess it
> saves you the save in the general case.

Well, clearly you have to check to see if the flag is set, but then
you've got a whole bunch of flags to check anyway.

Not sure why you need to save the last value - why not just page in
multiple pages right away?  If the latency for getting a subsequent
page is low, this will probably be cheaper than trying to set up an
async request.

> 
> Really, I think the hit is negligible; however, it's not my decision to
> make, no matter what.  I'm just suggesting possible approaches to the
> problem.
> 
> > What happens for executable image pages?  Do those get any readahead
> > now?
> 
> No.  You'd think data pages, would, though.  Datapage might benefit from
> this optimization as well, so you may be able to sell it that way.  It's
> just that your case is odd, so it's not likely to attract a lot of effort
> to optimize.  I'd suggest you make the changes yourself, if you can, and
> then see what it does as far as performance.

(Can't, I'm afraid, owing to hardware failure at the moment.  Not to
mention
imminent arrival of triplets.)

I would have thought that code pages would benefit too, especially if
you
have an opportunity to perform reordering of the functions so that there
is
good locality of reference.  Admittedly, ld doesn't do this now.

I think this is relevant, though Win32 targetted:
http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/bershad/etch/index.html

I'm sure its not the only such system.

> 
>                                         Regards,
>                                         Terry Lambert
>                                         terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.

-- 
Westongold Ltd                 C++/Java
 Multithread development and libraries
+44 1920 444284     info@westongold.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 07:19:22 1997
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At 11:28 AM 5/15/97 -0700, Brian N. Handy wrote:
>
>>> [NE200 cards]
>
>>I do the contrary: I boot a DOS floppy and configure them to the what
>>FreeBSD is really expecting. Most times it works, but sometimes no.
>>
>>	Pedro.
>
>This is what I had to do with mine.  It came with a configuration
>diskette, so when I first installed it I had a bunch of IRQ conflicts with
>something or other, so I'd jump back to DOS, change settings, back to
>FreeBSD, try it out... 
>
>I'd rather have jumpers to deal with, but I guess this is progress.

DOS? Whats that?

db

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 07:26:39 1997
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Subject: Re: mmap()
In-Reply-To: <337C3FAE.4295@westongold.com> from James Mansion at "May 16, 97 12:06:22 pm"
To: james@westongold.com (James Mansion)
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> Terry Lambert wrote:
> > 
> > > > Maybe you can convince John Dyson that coding this would be fun (it
> > > > might even actually *be* fun 8-)), and then checking the degradation
> > > > this causes in the general case to see if it's unacceptably high for
> > > > your special case.
> > >
> > > I can't see that this would be a high cost.  You'd only tell the real
> > > benefit on a loaded system anyway.
> > 
> > It would have a cost higher than not doing it (ie: non-zero).  Using
> > mmap() and then doing sequential I/O is probably a very limited market,
> 
Okay!!!  Firstly, the FFS FS dependent VOP_GETPAGES does do read-aheads iff
the object is marked with MADV_SEQUENTIAL.  Secondly, it would be fairly
easy to detect sequential behavior automatically.  Right now, there are
much bigger fish to fry!!!  :-) (The reason that it is in the FS dependent
code, is that it is only optional that one uses the cluster read ahead
code on a per filesystem basis.)  It is likely that the FFS dependent
VOP_GETPAGES code will work with other filesystem types (perhaps with
minor mods.)

John


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 07:27:18 1997
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From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb>
Message-Id: <199705161425.HAA00423@hub.freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
To: black@zen.cypher.net (Ben Black)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 07:25:48 -0700 (PDT)
Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
        rminnich@sarnoff.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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Ben Black wrote:
> 
> yes, since the bad guys are all too stupid to hack it to allow unlimited 
> CPUs.  guess again, please.
	
	well of course they are.
	just like they are too stupid to get high quality crypto from 
	anywhere but the usa.  right?
jmb

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 07:36:22 1997
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At 03:32 AM 5/16/97 -0400, you wrote:
>   From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
>   Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:48:13 +0200 (MEST)
>
>   Someone told me some time ago when I was seeking for similar
>   figures (Garret ?) that FreeBSD can saturate 10/100 Mbit with
>   appropriate CPU power. The only interesting question would be CPU
>   utilization during transfer compared to other L-word OSs.
>
>I'd be more interested in seeing FreeBSD get low latencies, but as
>long as you guys are bzero()'ing a structure on the stack of
>tcp_input() for every packet that arrives just for T/TCP's sake, it
>isn't going to happen.

yes...bzero is a major latency issue :-)

db


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 08:12:39 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:12:15 -0500 (EST)
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
Cc: Jason Thorpe <thorpej@nas.nasa.gov>,
        Alex Belits <abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us>,
        Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>,
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD 
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On Thu, 15 May 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote:

> And my replies to the MOSIX folk talking about how they might
> integrate their changes with FreeBSD have gone unanswered, this and
> some of the other things they said in earlier communication leading me
> to suspect that they have more commercial intentions in mind and thus
> probably won't be a truly viable option for *BSD anyway.
>
I had the same impression.

	Pedro.

> 					Jordan
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 08:17:12 1997
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From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
To: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
Cc: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
        rminnich@sarnoff.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Ben Black wrote:

> i think the real reason for the 6 CPU limit has been suggested.  
> commercial release.  note the lack of black helicopters for that explanation.
> 
> b3n
> 
Funds for MOSIX came from the Israeli Ministry of Defense, and the
Ministry of Science (and Energy?)...I think there are some black
helicopters over there.

	Pedro.


> On Fri, 16 May 1997, David S. Miller wrote:
> 
> >    Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:40:13 -0400 (EDT)
> >    From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
> > 
> >    the current RC5 distributed cracking effort shows quite clearly
> >    that something as advanced as MOSIX is not required.  if his logic
> >    is that bad guys will use MOSIX to crack encryption brute force
> >    then he is fooling himself.
> > 
> > And besides, as far as MO6 goes, all I have to say is that adb is your
> > friend...
> > 
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 08:17:13 1997
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Hello!

I've got infinite troubles trying to build Apache with PHP as Apache module 
and mySQL support. I got some crashes, but never made it working.

Anyone succeeded - HELP!!!

Alex.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 08:20:36 1997
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From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
Cc: "Brian N. Handy" <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>,
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, dennis wrote:

> 
> DOS? Whats that?
>
The environment produced by the experimental doscmd.

	Pedro. 
> db
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 08:36:34 1997
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tar tf mosix.new-kern-files.tar 
./
./distsys/
./distsys/costs.c
./distsys/costs.h
./distsys/drpc.h
./distsys/mtoip.h
./distsys/version.h
./sys/
./sys/dscosts.h
./sys/prequest.h
./sys/distsys.h
./i386/
./i386/OBJ/
./i386/OBJ/mosix.o

note the mosix.o: I don't think this is just a driver. 

anyone know? I don't have bsd/os to check. 
ron

Ron Minnich                |"I would point them out but ...
rminnich@sarnoff.com       |  I have no hands." -- Coconut Monkey
(609)-734-3120             | (see CM at www.pcgamer.com/coconut.html)
ftp://ftp.sarnoff.com/pub/mnfs/www/docs/cluster.html 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 08:39:41 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:40:02 +0200 (MEST)
From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
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How come that I still have a bunch of /var/spool/mqueue
files standing around:

toots# ls -l
total 38
-rw-------  1 root  daemon    441 Mar 24  1996 QfCAA04840
-rw-------  1 root  daemon    626 Mar 24  1996 QfCAA04844
-rw-------  1 root  daemon    443 Mar 24  1996 QfCAA04885
-rw-------  1 root  daemon    635 Mar 24  1996 QfDAA04972
-rw-------  1 root  daemon   1118 Mar 24  1996 dfCAA04840
-rw-------  1 root  daemon     96 Mar 24  1996 dfCAA04844
-rw-------  1 root  daemon  16253 Mar 24  1996 dfCAA04885
-rw-------  1 root  daemon     46 Mar 24  1996 dfDAA04972
-rw-r--r--  1 root  daemon    127 Mar 24  1996 xfCAA04840
-rw-r--r--  1 root  daemon     46 Mar 24  1996 xfCAA04844
-rw-r--r--  1 root  daemon    127 Mar 24  1996 xfCAA04885
-rw-r--r--  1 root  daemon     46 Mar 24  1996 xfDAA04972
toots#                                                    

Just curious - these are all mails from cron to root
and I remember that I did a make world that day.

Is there a sendmail change or why keep these files hanging around?
I could go ahead and delete them but normally they should get delivered,
shouldn't they?


--
Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 08:54:47 1997
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From: Josef Grosch <jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com>
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Subject: San Francisco FreeBSD User's Group
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Ian Kallen is pretty busy so....

The San Francisco FreeBSD User's Group will hold it's next meeting on
Monday, May 19 at 6:30 pm. We will be meeting at Internet Alfredo which is
located at 790-A Brannan Street in San Fracisco. The cross stree is 7th.

For futher information check our web site;

    http://www.arachna.com/freebsd/freebsd-sf.html

A quick show of hand would help with the planing. Also, we may be short on
chairs so bring your floding chairs.


Josef

-- 
Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 2.2.1
jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 08:57:13 1997
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Subject: Re: throughtput measurements for fast ethernet 
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             <199705160648.IAA04428@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> 
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> > has anyone got UDP/TCP throughtput figures on FreeBSD for fast ethernet 
> > cards...specifically the 3com and Intel Ether Express cards.
> 
> Someone told me some time ago when I was seeking for similar
> figures (Garret ?) that FreeBSD can saturate 10/100 Mbit with appropriate
> CPU power. The only interesting question would be CPU utilization during
> transfer compared to other L-word OSs.
> 


I was hoping for something more specific. My _first_ tests with the 3com vx 
driver for the 395 pci card on FreeBSD 2.2.1 are not showing good results - 
highest throughput for UDP 45Mbps. I should stress that these were first tests.

Has anyone any traffic measurements for any of the fast ethernet drivers?


thanks,

Anne



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 09:00:52 1997
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Subject: Re: throughtput measurements for fast ethernet
In-Reply-To: <199705160732.DAA00547@jenolan.caipgeneral> from "David S. Miller" at "May 16, 97 03:32:46 am"
To: davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu (David S. Miller)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:01:41 +0200 (MEST)
Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, hutton@isi.edu, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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>    From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
>    Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:48:13 +0200 (MEST)
> 
>    Someone told me some time ago when I was seeking for similar
>    figures (Garret ?) that FreeBSD can saturate 10/100 Mbit with
>    appropriate CPU power. The only interesting question would be CPU
>    utilization during transfer compared to other L-word OSs.
> 
> I'd be more interested in seeing FreeBSD get low latencies, but as
> long as you guys are bzero()'ing a structure on the stack of
> tcp_input() for every packet that arrives just for T/TCP's sake, it
> isn't going to happen.

Interesting.

a) I don't know how efficient the bzero() is (inline? #idef KERNEL?)
   over a statementwise zeroing of a 20 byte structure and why this.

b) Could you elaborate to a mundane how TCP latency is defined?
   I know the term 'interrupt latency' being defined as the time
   from the occurence of an interrupt to the first statement
   serving the interrupt.

> 
> ---------------------------------------------////
> Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
> 199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s   ////
> ethernet.  Beat that!                     ////
> -----------------------------------------////__________  o
> David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><
> 

--
Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 09:32:41 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:32:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jaye Mathisen  <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Can somebody check in Matt's newest de driver?
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Works great for me, and it's a pain to have to keep unpacking after every
cvsup.


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 09:48:50 1997
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From: "Ron G. Minnich" <rminnich@Sarnoff.COM>
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Subject: mosix source; bsd clustering
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here are the symbols in mosix.o (sorry i didn't do this first .....)

00000004 C _Tblock
0000f5f0 D _Tload
00000004 C _Tlstay
00000004 C _Tquiet
00000004 C _Tstay
00000004 C _Tvis
0000eb6c T _absorb_ticks
0000018c T _add_statistics_to_ancesstor
00002bcc T _adhoc
00008c08 T _adjust_latecomers
0000ec6c T _age_pages
00002a70 T _ask_deputy_to_goto
00003530 T _balpriority
00005f0c T _become_deputy_after_syscall
00003294 T _bring_all_back
0000d58c T _bump_running
0000d138 T _calc_load
0000e618 T _calc_utime
00000ef0 T _call_for_mem_balance
0000eadc T _can_read_kmem
00008d58 T _cancel_all_migrations
00006280 T _check_migrations
0000dec8 T _check_signals

etc. etc. etc. Looks like lots of stuff in there absent source. 

My guess is: no source.

on a different note: bsd clustering is a good idea, and in fact I make 
money here at sarnoff doing it, and have been doing so for the past few 
years. I paid for my first 16-node cluster in less than 6 months. But I 
don't sell clusters, I do computing for people and/or sell turnkey 
software to run jobs on clusters. 

For success: transparency at all levels is not the issue. 
Migration is not always needed. In fact lots of stuff that may appeal 
to us as CS types is not necessarily what customers need, e.g. CORBA. 
What's needed is one of: 
1) turnkey application
2) C compiler which hides the cluster. This is transparancy at the compiler
   level, but note it is NOT transparency at many other levels. The 
   distinction is essential. I've used this (we built one at SRC)
   and it's nice. 
3) some sort of simple graphical front-end to start up, monitor, and
   control tasks (we use TK)

ron



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 09:58:36 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
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Subject: Re: mmap()
To: narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee (Narvi)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 09:50:04 -0700 (MST)
Cc: terry@lambert.org, james@westongold.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> > It would have a cost higher than not doing it (ie: non-zero).  Using
> > mmap() and then doing sequential I/O is probably a very limited market,
> > so John would have to amke a decision to accept the non-0 degradation
> > on that basis.
> 
> Well, isn't grep doing the same? Mmap a file and then walk it line by line
> and output the line matching the regular expression? Any program that
> processes some kind of text file line by line will most probably express
> the same kind of access pattern. 

I don't know.  If it is, then you have a good "pro" argument (or a good
argument for converting grep to normal buffered file I/O).


> I am not sure, but in case of several processes accessing one file using
> MADV_WILLNEED / MADV_DONTNEED could perhaps help?

The MADV_WILLNEED does not predictively fault, it only predictively maps
the pages which are already in core.  This is an up-front hit taken in
lieu of a statistical hit.  It will raise the priority of the in-core
pages so mapped, so if they are after the current sequence address, I
suppose it makes it more likely that they will stay in core.  I could
probably mount a nify denial of service attack using this, if I sat down
and thought about it for a while with the VM code in front of me.

> By the way - in the source of grep, madvise(.. MADV_SEQUENCIAL ..) is
> commented for being slover. I will give it a try...

You might as well do the code change to the VM and time it, then.  We've
spent so much time discussing the existing flags and why they don't do
what you want that the changes could have already been made and benchmarked.
8-).


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 10:04:58 1997
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From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FreeBSD.ORG>
cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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exactly.  as far as i know, the bad guys outside the united states are 
incapable of making their own strong cryptography.

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote:

> Ben Black wrote:
> > 
> > yes, since the bad guys are all too stupid to hack it to allow unlimited 
> > CPUs.  guess again, please.
> 	
> 	well of course they are.
> 	just like they are too stupid to get high quality crypto from 
> 	anywhere but the usa.  right?
> jmb
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 10:10:46 1997
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Subject: Re: throughtput measurements for fast ethernet 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 May 1997 08:56:09 PDT."
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> 
> > > has anyone got UDP/TCP throughtput figures on FreeBSD for fast ethernet 
> > > cards...specifically the 3com and Intel Ether Express cards.
> > 
> > Someone told me some time ago when I was seeking for similar
> > figures (Garret ?) that FreeBSD can saturate 10/100 Mbit with appropriate
> > CPU power. The only interesting question would be CPU utilization during
> > transfer compared to other L-word OSs.
> > 
> 
> 
> I was hoping for something more specific. My _first_ tests with the 3com vx 
> driver for the 395 pci card on FreeBSD 2.2.1 are not showing good results - 
> highest throughput for UDP 45Mbps. I should stress that these were first tests.
> 
> Has anyone any traffic measurements for any of the fast ethernet drivers?

What kind of main memory bandwidth can your motherboards sustain?  A
good test is the stream benchmark from McCalpin.  Many P6 motherboards
can sustain transfer rates which drive 100mb ethernet at full throttle,
but a lot of P5 motherboards cannot.  45Mbps is not unusual for these.

Russell


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 10:10:52 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
To: black@zen.cypher.net (Ben Black)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:02:31 -0700 (MST)
Cc: thorpej@nas.nasa.gov, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co,
        rminnich@Sarnoff.COM, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> the current RC5 distributed cracking effort shows quite clearly that 
> something as advanced as MOSIX is not required.  if his logic is that bad 
> guys will use MOSIX to crack encryption brute force then he is fooling 
> himself.

More likely, it's that they will model burn dispersion on conventional
high explosives used to collapse Berylium/Polonium shells, or model
Lead/Cadmium film thicknesses seperating focii of K-Alpha reflector
cavities, one focii of which would contain a Deuterium/Tritium compound.

Or it may be that a 7 nodes, they meet the definition of Supercomputer
under DOE definitions, and are therefore on the munions list with PGP
and DES.  I wonder if they have to drop the number of nodes, now that
we have 233MHz Intel processors...


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 10:15:31 1997
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From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
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oh, israel has its share of black helicopters, but i think that has 
nothing to do with MOSIX licensing.

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> On Fri, 16 May 1997, Ben Black wrote:
> 
> > i think the real reason for the 6 CPU limit has been suggested.  
> > commercial release.  note the lack of black helicopters for that explanation.
> > 
> > b3n
> > 
> Funds for MOSIX came from the Israeli Ministry of Defense, and the
> Ministry of Science (and Energy?)...I think there are some black
> helicopters over there.
> 
> 	Pedro.
> 
> 
> > On Fri, 16 May 1997, David S. Miller wrote:
> > 
> > >    Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 00:40:13 -0400 (EDT)
> > >    From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
> > > 
> > >    the current RC5 distributed cracking effort shows quite clearly
> > >    that something as advanced as MOSIX is not required.  if his logic
> > >    is that bad guys will use MOSIX to crack encryption brute force
> > >    then he is fooling himself.
> > > 
> > > And besides, as far as MO6 goes, all I have to say is that adb is your
> > > friend...
> > > 
> > 
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 10:17:36 1997
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From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
To: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FreeBSD.ORG>, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Ben Black wrote:

> exactly.  as far as i know, the bad guys outside the united states are 
> incapable of making their own strong cryptography.
>
I'm Colombian, so I'll put it this way: guys in the US are incapable
of making their own good coffee...

	Pedro. 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 10:20:13 1997
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Subject: Re: throughtput measurements for fast ethernet 
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> > I was hoping for something more specific. My _first_ tests with the 3com vx 
> > driver for the 395 pci card on FreeBSD 2.2.1 are not showing good results - 
> > highest throughput for UDP 45Mbps. I should stress that these were first tests.
> > 
> > Has anyone any traffic measurements for any of the fast ethernet drivers?
> 
> What kind of main memory bandwidth can your motherboards sustain?  A
> good test is the stream benchmark from McCalpin.  Many P6 motherboards
> can sustain transfer rates which drive 100mb ethernet at full throttle,
> but a lot of P5 motherboards cannot.  45Mbps is not unusual for these.
> 

I have no problem getting high throughput with other high speed cards and 
drivers....wouldn't they be affected as well.

Anne



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 10:20:53 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:43:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" <jmb@FreeBSD.ORG>, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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it's media misconception hour on the hackers list!  can we hear from all 
the pedophiles next?  i know you're out there, NBC says so.

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> On Fri, 16 May 1997, Ben Black wrote:
> 
> > exactly.  as far as i know, the bad guys outside the united states are 
> > incapable of making their own strong cryptography.
> >
> I'm Colombian, so I'll put it this way: guys in the US are incapable
> of making their own good coffee...
> 
> 	Pedro. 
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 10:41:21 1997
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Subject: Re: mmap()
To: james@westongold.com (James Mansion)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:34:27 -0700 (MST)
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> > so John would have to amke a decision to accept the non-0 degradation
> > on that basis.
> 
> I take issue with moans about 'it costs more than zero' and
> being so defensive about a few cycles.  Its not the first time this
> attitude is apperent on this list.

[ ... ]

> I know that VM pagein code is used a lot, but how much of the total of
> (say) ftp.cdrom.com is in this code?  Say 5%?  Heck, you could add 20%
> to the code path before you get a 'measurable' difference of 1%.  (And
> do I believe its 5%?  No.  It'll be less than this).

[ ... ]

I am not opposed to this change.

I am suggesting that you write the code.

I am also cautioning you as to who will have the final say on whether
or not your code is integrated, and the issues he may be looking at
after having been beaten up on various performance issues vis-a-vis
Linux for about three years now (making that particular code path a
bit sensitive).


> Its much more likely in my view that the kind of graph closure coding
> that you propose for a fine grained SMP system will have a measurable
> impact.

You're right.  It will.  It will make the UP kernel preemptive, and
then FreeBSD will get the same 60% improvement in I/O latency that
UnixWare got when we did it at USL.  Only FreeBSD will probably be
better than 60%, because it will use Soft Updates instead of Delayed
Ordered Writes within the concurrency graph.  And it will have the
effect of reducing interprocessor synchronization (not mattering
whether it's by IPI or by MESI hardware coherency) and therfore
FreeBSD will be SMP scalable to more processors than UnixWare before
bus effects make it cost-ineffective to add more processors.


Not that this has anything to do with predictive fault-ahead in a VM
system.


> Please, people, be reasonable in your opposition to extending code
> paths.

Again, I'm not opposed.  Feel Free to implement your code changes, and
after doing so, feel free to submit them with as flimsy or as robust
a set of performance tradeoff benchmarks as you see fit.

It's not like I'll have any part in the decision to adopt or not adopt
the code.


The real problem I have is that you seem to be asking someone else to
do the code.  It would be a different story if you had done the code,
and were simply asking that it be integrated (I happen to have this
particular problem myself).


> Well, clearly you have to check to see if the flag is set, but then
> you've got a whole bunch of flags to check anyway.
> 
> Not sure why you need to save the last value - why not just page in
> multiple pages right away?  If the latency for getting a subsequent
> page is low, this will probably be cheaper than trying to set up an
> async request.

Because MADV_SEQUENTIAL is the wrong flag to use for this.  Really,
what the flag does is deprioritize-behind pages.  Arguably, this
should be names something else, and MADV_SEQUENTIAL should be reserved
for meaning what you apparently want it to mean... it's broken to
deprioritize the pages if your sequential access is (for example)
occuring on anyting more than 4k blocks.


> > No.  You'd think data pages, would, though.  Datapage might benefit from
> > this optimization as well, so you may be able to sell it that way.  It's
> > just that your case is odd, so it's not likely to attract a lot of effort
> > to optimize.  I'd suggest you make the changes yourself, if you can, and
> > then see what it does as far as performance.
> 
> (Can't, I'm afraid, owing to hardware failure at the moment.  Not to
> mention imminent arrival of triplets.)

Well, if you are asking someone else to do the code, you need to ask
John Dyson, directly.  Or on -current, not on -hackers.


> I would have thought that code pages would benefit too, especially if
> you have an opportunity to perform reordering of the functions so that
> there is good locality of reference.  Admittedly, ld doesn't do this now.

Well, you are assuming predictive forward locality, actually.  So ld is
not the only thing that would be involved... the compiler code generator
out to generate function blocks out of order relative to their physical
location in the source file, ideally, if this were the case.  Alternately,
functions should get their own ELF sections and always be PIC so that the
sections could be reordered for page preference.  Even then, you are at
best engaged in statistical branch path prediction... when do you turn
"learning" off?  It's like the problem with back propagation Neural nets
once they've been trained.  You have to reset the data state for each
sample so that the training is not adversely affected by the output no
longer being clamped; so when do you "clamp" the object order?


> I think this is relevant, though Win32 targetted:
> http://www.cs.washington.edu/homes/bershad/etch/index.html
> 
> I'm sure its not the only such system.

No.  The University of Utah reference I gave in the CLUSTERING discussion
is similar, but for UNIX and UNIX-like systems (thanks for the pointer
to this one, though).


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 10:51:35 1997
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From: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Message-Id: <199705161744.KAA17629@phaeton.artisoft.com>
Subject: Re: mmap()
To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 10:44:41 -0700 (MST)
Cc: james@westongold.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-Reply-To: <199705161426.JAA01426@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at May 16, 97 09:26:24 am
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> Okay!!!  Firstly, the FFS FS dependent VOP_GETPAGES does do read-aheads iff
> the object is marked with MADV_SEQUENTIAL.  Secondly, it would be fairly
> easy to detect sequential behavior automatically.  Right now, there are
> much bigger fish to fry!!!  :-) (The reason that it is in the FS dependent
> code, is that it is only optional that one uses the cluster read ahead
> code on a per filesystem basis.)  It is likely that the FFS dependent
> VOP_GETPAGES code will work with other filesystem types (perhaps with
> minor mods.)

It seems to me that the OBJ_SEQUENTIAL blocks the VOP_GETPAGE() caller
until all pages have been faulted, instead of asynchronously doing the
pages following the requested page, and returing immediately for the
requested page.  This would introduce "bursty" behaviour, as sequential
access would incur a large latence for every read-ahead trigger.

It seems to me that this is not what he is asking for?

Else how do you explain the factor of 2 performance degradation he is
seeing when using mmap() I/O over standard file I/O (with associated
copies)?


					Regards,
					Terry Lambert
					terry@lambert.org
---
Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
or previous employers.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 11:02:28 1997
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Message-Id: <199705161758.MAA02020@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: mmap()
In-Reply-To: <199705161744.KAA17629@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "May 16, 97 10:44:41 am"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:58:01 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, james@westongold.com, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> > Okay!!!  Firstly, the FFS FS dependent VOP_GETPAGES does do read-aheads iff
> > the object is marked with MADV_SEQUENTIAL.  Secondly, it would be fairly
> > easy to detect sequential behavior automatically.  Right now, there are
> > much bigger fish to fry!!!  :-) (The reason that it is in the FS dependent
> > code, is that it is only optional that one uses the cluster read ahead
> > code on a per filesystem basis.)  It is likely that the FFS dependent
> > VOP_GETPAGES code will work with other filesystem types (perhaps with
> > minor mods.)
> 
> It seems to me that the OBJ_SEQUENTIAL blocks the VOP_GETPAGE() caller
> until all pages have been faulted, instead of asynchronously doing the
> pages following the requested page, and returing immediately for the
> requested page.  This would introduce "bursty" behaviour, as sequential
> access would incur a large latence for every read-ahead trigger.
> 
The read-ahead isn't blocked for in that case.  It only waits for the
blocks that have been explicitly requested.

John

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 12:06:16 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:05:04 -0500 (EST)
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
To: Terry Lambert <terry@lambert.org>
Cc: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>, thorpej@nas.nasa.gov,
        rminnich@sarnoff.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Terry Lambert wrote:
> 
> Or it may be that a 7 nodes, they meet the definition of Supercomputer
> under DOE definitions, and are therefore on the munions list with PGP
> and DES.  I wonder if they have to drop the number of nodes, now that
> we have 233MHz Intel processors...
>
Now that you mention this, with SMP you could have even a heavier system
(don't tell this to the MOSIX guys :) ).
Anyway, if they want to make a business out of clustering, it's OK with
me, that's what the BSD license is all about.

	Pedro.
 
> 
> 					Regards,
> 					Terry Lambert
> 					terry@lambert.org
> ---
> Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present
> or previous employers.
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 12:17:09 1997
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Subject: Re: mmap()
In-Reply-To: <199705161744.KAA17629@phaeton.artisoft.com> from Terry Lambert at "May 16, 97 10:44:41 am"
To: terry@lambert.org (Terry Lambert)
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:16:05 -0500 (EST)
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> > Okay!!!  Firstly, the FFS FS dependent VOP_GETPAGES does do read-aheads iff
> > the object is marked with MADV_SEQUENTIAL.  Secondly, it would be fairly
> > easy to detect sequential behavior automatically.  Right now, there are
> > much bigger fish to fry!!!  :-) (The reason that it is in the FS dependent
> > code, is that it is only optional that one uses the cluster read ahead
> > code on a per filesystem basis.)  It is likely that the FFS dependent
> > VOP_GETPAGES code will work with other filesystem types (perhaps with
> > minor mods.)
> 
> It seems to me that the OBJ_SEQUENTIAL blocks the VOP_GETPAGE() caller
> until all pages have been faulted, instead of asynchronously doing the
> pages following the requested page, and returing immediately for the
> requested page.  This would introduce "bursty" behaviour, as sequential
> access would incur a large latence for every read-ahead trigger.
> 
> It seems to me that this is not what he is asking for?
> 
> Else how do you explain the factor of 2 performance degradation he is
> seeing when using mmap() I/O over standard file I/O (with associated
> copies)?
> 
I don't know, I just tried this program, while copying a 12MB file
to/from the same partition on a Seagate Hawk drive, and it
took 6 seconds realtime.  Doesn't seem too awful bad to me...
Esp since the standard "cp" command takes 14 seconds realtime.

#include <sys/types.h>
#include <sys/stat.h>
#include <sys/mman.h>
#include <fcntl.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <string.h>
#include <unistd.h>


#ifndef MAP_FILE
#define MAP_FILE 0
#endif


int
main (argc, argv)
int argc;
char **argv;
{
    int fdin, fdout;
    char *src, *dst;
    struct stat statbuf;

    if ((fdin = open (argv[1], O_RDONLY)) < 0)
    {
	perror ("open source file failed");
	exit (1);
    }
    if ((fdout = open (argv[2], O_RDWR | O_CREAT | O_TRUNC, 0644)) < 0)
    {
	perror ("open destination file failed");
	exit (1);
    }

    (void) fstat (fdin, &statbuf);
    (void) lseek (fdout, statbuf.st_size-1, SEEK_SET);
    (void) write (fdout, "", 1);

    src = (char *) mmap (0, statbuf.st_size, PROT_READ, MAP_FILE | MAP_PRIVATE, fdin, 0);
    if (src == (caddr_t) -1)
    {
	perror ("mmap source file failed");
	exit (1);
    }

    dst = (char *) mmap (0, statbuf.st_size, PROT_READ | PROT_WRITE, 
                                    MAP_FILE | MAP_SHARED, fdout, 0);
    if (dst == (caddr_t) -1)
    {
	perror ("mmap destination file failed");
	exit (1);
    }
    (void) memcpy (dst, src, statbuf.st_size);
    return (0);
}

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 12:27:36 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 21:19:45 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: URGENT:  Printing an X11 screen.  How?
References: <XFMail.970513000217.Shimon@i-Connect.Net> <19970516081335.CK23118@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970516172805.61524@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au>
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As David Dawes wrote:

(Xprt)
> >...i never figured out how to use it.
> 
> It is an X server, so you have to start it as a display which doesn't
> clash with other servers you have running.  Try 'Xprt :1'.

Hmm, do you perchance know how to `redirect' something to it (short of
starting an entire client on this display)?

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 12:40:26 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 12:40:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jaye Mathisen  <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
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Some kind of remote-tape or backup controller gizwhizzerthingamajig?


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 12:45:42 1997
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From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
To: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Ben Black wrote:

> oh, israel has its share of black helicopters, but i think that has 
> nothing to do with MOSIX licensing.
>
You mean Saddam wouldn't find a use for MOSIX? Perhaps something like
poison gas synthesis?

	Pedro. 
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 12:57:08 1997
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From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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you mean because there are no C programmers in iraq?

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:

> On Fri, 16 May 1997, Ben Black wrote:
> 
> > oh, israel has its share of black helicopters, but i think that has 
> > nothing to do with MOSIX licensing.
> >
> You mean Saddam wouldn't find a use for MOSIX? Perhaps something like
> poison gas synthesis?
> 
> 	Pedro. 
> > 
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 13:10:58 1997
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From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
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Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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[the cc: list was a bit too long]

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Ben Black wrote:

> exactly.  as far as i know, the bad guys outside the united states are 
> incapable of making their own strong cryptography.
> 

Like where was IDEA invented? Certainly *not* in the USA.

	Sander

> On Fri, 16 May 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote:
> 
> > Ben Black wrote:
> > > 
> > > yes, since the bad guys are all too stupid to hack it to allow unlimited 
> > > CPUs.  guess again, please.
> > 	
> > 	well of course they are.
> > 	just like they are too stupid to get high quality crypto from 
> > 	anywhere but the usa.  right?
> > jmb
> > 
> 


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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 23:07:22 +0300 (EEST)
From: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
To: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
cc: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>, hutton@isi.edu,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: throughtput measurements for fast ethernet
In-Reply-To: <199705161601.SAA01821@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de>
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Christoph Kukulies wrote:

> >    From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
> >    Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 08:48:13 +0200 (MEST)
> > 
> >    Someone told me some time ago when I was seeking for similar
> >    figures (Garret ?) that FreeBSD can saturate 10/100 Mbit with
> >    appropriate CPU power. The only interesting question would be CPU
> >    utilization during transfer compared to other L-word OSs.
> > 
> > I'd be more interested in seeing FreeBSD get low latencies, but as
> > long as you guys are bzero()'ing a structure on the stack of
> > tcp_input() for every packet that arrives just for T/TCP's sake, it
> > isn't going to happen.
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> a) I don't know how efficient the bzero() is (inline? #idef KERNEL?)
>    over a statementwise zeroing of a 20 byte structure and why this.
> 

I tried it (actrually more). 

After replacing the bzeroing of the tcp options and all the
bzero(&taop,...) in tcp_input.c, tcp_output.c and tcp_usrreq.c with
macros doing by-component zeroing I see 4-5% of improvement in both TCP
latency and throughput on my P75. But it is a kind of hack.

I can post the diffs if anyone is interested.

	Sander

> 
> --
> Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 13:27:00 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:42:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: Narvi <narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Cluster Computing in BSD
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sarcasm, ace.  the point was that no country has a monopoly on brains so 
all this nonsense about restricting access to certain software is 
complete lunacy.

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Narvi wrote:

> 
> [the cc: list was a bit too long]
> 
> On Fri, 16 May 1997, Ben Black wrote:
> 
> > exactly.  as far as i know, the bad guys outside the united states are 
> > incapable of making their own strong cryptography.
> > 
> 
> Like where was IDEA invented? Certainly *not* in the USA.
> 
> 	Sander
> 
> > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote:
> > 
> > > Ben Black wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > yes, since the bad guys are all too stupid to hack it to allow unlimited 
> > > > CPUs.  guess again, please.
> > > 	
> > > 	well of course they are.
> > > 	just like they are too stupid to get high quality crypto from 
> > > 	anywhere but the usa.  right?
> > > jmb
> > > 
> > 
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 13:33:56 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:36:04 -0400
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
From: Al <perlsta@fang.cs.sunyit.edu>
Subject: BNC netcards?
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        I just recently installed a genuine NE2000 16 bit novell BNC card in
a freebsd box and an 8 bit NE1000 in my win95 box, they are both 10mbps
right? but my transfer rate varies from 140k per second down to like 40k
between machines, and they are only seperated by a 15 foot cable with
terminators on the end.

        I thought i'd get almost a megabyte per second.

        Anyone have any suggestions why it is acting like this?  I know the
cards are old... but is there any diagnostic tests i can run to aid
diagnosing the problem?

thank you
Alfred Perlstein
perlsta@cs.sunyit.edu


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 13:37:24 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:36:37 -0500 (EST)
From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" <pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co>
To: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Ben Black wrote:

> you mean because there are no C programmers in iraq?
>
Haven't seen one on this list :), but that's certainly not the issue. If
it were so easy MS, Linux, and FreeBSD would already have it. You
haven't perchance wrote your own MOSIX and are waiting for a request to
commit it, are you?

> On Fri, 16 May 1997, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 16 May 1997, Ben Black wrote:
> > 
> > > oh, israel has its share of black helicopters, but i think that has 
> > > nothing to do with MOSIX licensing.
> > >
> > You mean Saddam wouldn't find a use for MOSIX? Perhaps something like
> > poison gas synthesis?
> > 
> > 	Pedro. 
> > > 
> > 
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 13:39:26 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 13:36:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Curt Sampson <cjs@portal.ca>
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Anne Hutton wrote:

> I was hoping for something more specific. My _first_ tests with the 3com vx 
> driver for the 395 pci card on FreeBSD 2.2.1 are not showing good results - 
> highest throughput for UDP 45Mbps.

Has DMA been added to that 3com driver yet? If not, you may get
much better results with the SMC.

cjs

Curt Sampson    cjs@portal.ca		Info at http://www.portal.ca/
Internet Portal Services, Inc.		`And malt does more than Milton can
Vancouver, BC   (604) 257-9400		 To justify God's ways to man.' 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 13:48:56 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 15:48:29 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mark Tinguely <tinguely@plains.nodak.edu>
Message-Id: <199705162048.PAA19763@plains.nodak.edu>
To: black@zen.cypher.net, sthaug@nethelp.no
Subject: Why use ATM, (was Cluster Computing in BSD)
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Steinar Haug says:
> I haven't seen any sign of inexpensive 155 Mbps ATM NICs, why do you
> think inexpensive 622 Mbps ones are coming soon?

they are coming down in price, but not nearly low enough to be mainstream.
the cheapest cards are the ones that use host memory for packet segmentation
and re-assembly. I wish I had a performance study to see how much speed
is lost using host memory for SAR operations.

Ben Black asks:
>  and why would you want to use something as inefficient as ATM for a 
>  cluster interconnect?

in-efficiency is not a concern problem IF the end result is faster than
anything else on the market. ATM, lost that window of opportunity and today
is not the fastest thing on the market because everone wants IP. I think even
Sonet PPP/frame relay will upstage ATM.

yeah, this prob. belongs in -chat or -atm.

--mark.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 14:06:29 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:06:25 -0400
From: Charles Henrich <henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu>
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Has any thought been given to importing vim as FreeBSD's vi instead of nvi?

I've found that its syntax coloring improves life a remarkable amount!

-Crh

       Charles Henrich     Michigan State University     henrich@msu.edu

                         http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 14:21:09 1997
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At 04:36 PM 5/16/97 -0400, Al wrote:
>        I just recently installed a genuine NE2000 16 bit novell BNC card in
>a freebsd box and an 8 bit NE1000 in my win95 box, they are both 10mbps
>right? but my transfer rate varies from 140k per second down to like 40k
>between machines, and they are only seperated by a 15 foot cable with
>terminators on the end.

Basic Math:

8-bit NE1000 + Win95 = low_throughput.

i'm surprised that Win95 even supports it!

db


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 14:28:13 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:27:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
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Subject: Re: Why use ATM, (was Cluster Computing in BSD)
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Mark Tinguely wrote:

> Steinar Haug says:
> > I haven't seen any sign of inexpensive 155 Mbps ATM NICs, why do you
> > think inexpensive 622 Mbps ones are coming soon?
> 
> they are coming down in price, but not nearly low enough to be mainstream.
> the cheapest cards are the ones that use host memory for packet segmentation
> and re-assembly. I wish I had a performance study to see how much speed
> is lost using host memory for SAR operations.
> 
> Ben Black asks:
> >  and why would you want to use something as inefficient as ATM for a 
> >  cluster interconnect?
> 
> in-efficiency is not a concern problem IF the end result is faster than
> anything else on the market. ATM, lost that window of opportunity and today
> is not the fastest thing on the market because everone wants IP. I think even
> Sonet PPP/frame relay will upstage ATM.

This confuses me somewhat.  Let me detail what confuses me.

You say that ATM is losing out to ip and (perhaps) to Sonet.  This is 
juggling the protocol levels badly in my mind, because SONET is a link 
level protocol (so it isn't encapsulateable by anything), while ATM 
isn't, it needs a link level protocol to ride on.  What I'm saying, is I 
don't think that ATM can be in competition with SONET; that's why your 
statement confuses me.

On top of that, I thought that ATM was being used as a way to link LANs, 
so ip would be routed over ATM links, and again, not competitive.  You 
could conceivably have a SONET link that had an ATM constituent, which 
was carrying an ip message inside it.  That's the way I understood it, 
and that example was (supposedly) fairly common, at least as common as 
SONET itself is.

Where am I wrong?

> 
> yeah, this prob. belongs in -chat or -atm.
> 
> --mark.
> 
> 

----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
(301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 14:33:32 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:07:26 +0200
From: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Non-Intel CPUs and FreeBSD - any K6-200/233s out there?
References: <199705090323.UAA06913@hub.freebsd.org> <19970513205246.27345@ct.picker.com>
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According to Randall Hopper:
> Anyone running an AMD K6 200 or 233Mhz CPU?
> 
> (Just swapped in an ASUS P55T2P4 and am watching the chip prices.)

I'll be running a K6/166 (probably at 2.5x 83 MHz) to replace my P133 (at
166/83) tomorrow so we'll see :-)

-- 
Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #9: Thu May  8 20:22:51 CEST 1997

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 14:34:20 1997
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Subject: Re: throughtput measurements for fast ethernet
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   From: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
   Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:01:41 +0200 (MEST)

   Interesting.

   a) I don't know how efficient the bzero() is (inline? #idef KERNEL?)
      over a statementwise zeroing of a 20 byte structure and why this.

It's just not something you do in a time critical path.

   b) Could you elaborate to a mundane how TCP latency is defined?
      I know the term 'interrupt latency' being defined as the time
      from the occurence of an interrupt to the first statement
      serving the interrupt.

Check out lat_tcp.c from lmbench for one perspective on how this can
be defined.

---------------------------------------------////
Yow! 11.26 MB/s remote host TCP bandwidth & ////
199 usec remote TCP latency over 100Mb/s   ////
ethernet.  Beat that!                     ////
-----------------------------------------////__________  o
David S. Miller, davem@caip.rutgers.edu /_____________/ / // /_/ ><

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 14:39:11 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:02:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ben Black <black@zen.cypher.net>
To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
cc: Mark Tinguely <tinguely@plains.nodak.edu>, sthaug@nethelp.no,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Why use ATM, (was Cluster Computing in BSD)
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you ignored part of what he said.  PPP over SONET is the competition he 
refers to for ATM.  it makes far better use of resources and is a lot 
less complex to use.  the downside is that it is not cell-based so mixing 
all sorts of different traffic (voice, video, IP) is not as well supported, 
but i am guessing you can put ATM cells in SONET frames and pump them 
accross a SONET link even if it is also handling IP...current hardware 
may not support this and it may be more difficult than i suspect.


b3n


On Fri, 16 May 1997, Chuck Robey wrote:

> On Fri, 16 May 1997, Mark Tinguely wrote:
> 
> > Steinar Haug says:
> > > I haven't seen any sign of inexpensive 155 Mbps ATM NICs, why do you
> > > think inexpensive 622 Mbps ones are coming soon?
> > 
> > they are coming down in price, but not nearly low enough to be mainstream.
> > the cheapest cards are the ones that use host memory for packet segmentation
> > and re-assembly. I wish I had a performance study to see how much speed
> > is lost using host memory for SAR operations.
> > 
> > Ben Black asks:
> > >  and why would you want to use something as inefficient as ATM for a 
> > >  cluster interconnect?
> > 
> > in-efficiency is not a concern problem IF the end result is faster than
> > anything else on the market. ATM, lost that window of opportunity and today
> > is not the fastest thing on the market because everone wants IP. I think even
> > Sonet PPP/frame relay will upstage ATM.
> 
> This confuses me somewhat.  Let me detail what confuses me.
> 
> You say that ATM is losing out to ip and (perhaps) to Sonet.  This is 
> juggling the protocol levels badly in my mind, because SONET is a link 
> level protocol (so it isn't encapsulateable by anything), while ATM 
> isn't, it needs a link level protocol to ride on.  What I'm saying, is I 
> don't think that ATM can be in competition with SONET; that's why your 
> statement confuses me.
> 
> On top of that, I thought that ATM was being used as a way to link LANs, 
> so ip would be routed over ATM links, and again, not competitive.  You 
> could conceivably have a SONET link that had an ATM constituent, which 
> was carrying an ip message inside it.  That's the way I understood it, 
> and that example was (supposedly) fairly common, at least as common as 
> SONET itself is.
> 
> Where am I wrong?
> 
> > 
> > yeah, this prob. belongs in -chat or -atm.
> > 
> > --mark.
> > 
> > 
> 
> ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> Chuck Robey                 | Interests include any kind of voice or data 
> chuckr@eng.umd.edu          | communications topic, C programming, and Unix.
> 9120 Edmonston Ct #302      |
> Greenbelt, MD 20770         | I run Journey2 and picnic, both FreeBSD
> (301) 220-2114              | version 3.0 current -- and great FUN!
> ----------------------------+-----------------------------------------------
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 14:41:02 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 14:35:55 -0700
From: KORV <zachg@efn.org>
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KORVs page hath been updated

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 14:41:12 1997
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From: "Andrei  A. Kuksa" <kuksaa@center.chph.ras.ru>
To: "hardware@freebsd.org" <hardware@freebsd.org>,
        "hackers@freebsd.org" <hackers@freebsd.org>
Date: Sat, 17 May 97 01:44:20 
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Hello! 
Unfortunately, I'm not subscribin' to Your mailing list...

I have Arlan-655 WAN adapter; I need drivers for that
for FreeBSD (  I know they exist for BSDI 2.1. in binary format ) Can anybody help me ?
 If you have any info about, please send me.
Thanks for a kind attention.
Sincerely... Andrei  

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=     
E-mail: kuksaa@femto.chph.ras.ru              kuksaa@chph.ras.ru   		    
              andy@erich.chph.ras.ru
FIDONET:  2:5020/630.44@fidonet.org
Personal homepage: http://center.chph.ras.ru/~kuksaa           
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 16:27:14 1997
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Subject: panic: blkfree: freeing free block 
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 16:27:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Cameron Slye" <cslye@calweb.com>
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Well, I am at a dead end..  I have low leveled the drive, I have newfsed the
drive, I have cvsupped and installed new kernels for the last month..  Any
ideas on this error ?


Background on the system,  p133 running on a asus p55t2p4 with 128mb.  2
2940UW's, root drive a quantum XP31070W L912 the /news/spool drive is a
TANDEM 4275-1 1717 (IBM OEM I belive) There is a dual port SMC card (Digital
21040)  

current pcb at 1efac8
panic: blkfree: freeing free block
#0  boot (howto=260) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243
243                                     dumppcb.pcb_cr3 = rcr3();

(kgdb) where
#0  boot (howto=260) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243
#1  0xf0117c03 in panic (fmt=0xf0101439 "from debugger")
    at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:367
#2  0xf0101455 in db_panic (dummy1=-266612103, dummy2=0, dummy3=-1, 
    dummy4=0xefbff92c "") at ../../ddb/db_command.c:440
#3  0xf0101345 in db_command (last_cmdp=0xf01e3b24, cmd_table=0xf01e3974, 
    aux_cmd_tablep=0xf01fce54) at ../../ddb/db_command.c:337
#4  0xf01014c2 in db_command_loop () at ../../ddb/db_command.c:462
#5  0xf0103ca8 in db_trap (type=3, code=0) at ../../ddb/db_trap.c:73
#6  0xf01bd07b in kdb_trap (type=3, code=0, regs=0xefbffa1c)
    at ../../i386/i386/db_interface.c:126
#7  0xf01c5c34 in trap (frame={tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 16, tf_edi = 0, 
      tf_esi = -267381703, tf_ebp = -272631200, tf_isp = -272631228, 
      tf_ebx = 260, tf_edx = -266612159, tf_ecx = -2147483648, tf_eax = 18, 
      tf_trapno = 3, tf_err = 0, tf_eip = -266612103, tf_cs = 8, 
      tf_eflags = 582, tf_esp = -266612175, tf_ss = -267289704})
    at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:403
#8  0xf01bd279 in Debugger (msg=0xf0117b98 "panic")
    at ../../i386/i386/db_interface.c:254
#9  0xf0117bfa in panic (fmt=0xf0101439 "from debugger")
    at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:365
#10 0xf0101455 in db_panic (dummy1=-266612096, dummy2=0, dummy3=-1, 
    dummy4=0xefbffab0 "") at ../../ddb/db_command.c:440
---Type <return> to continue, or q <return> to quit---
#11 0xf0101345 in db_command (last_cmdp=0xf01e3b24, cmd_table=0xf01e3974, 
    aux_cmd_tablep=0xf01fce54) at ../../ddb/db_command.c:337
#12 0xf01014c2 in db_command_loop () at ../../ddb/db_command.c:462
#13 0xf0103ca8 in db_trap (type=10, code=0) at ../../ddb/db_trap.c:73
#14 0xf01bd07b in kdb_trap (type=10, code=0, regs=0xefbffba0)
    at ../../i386/i386/db_interface.c:126
#15 0xf01c5c34 in trap (frame={tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 16, tf_edi = -251225900, 
      tf_esi = -266736111, tf_ebp = -272630812, tf_isp = -272630840, 
      tf_ebx = 256, tf_edx = -266612159, tf_ecx = -2147483648, tf_eax = 18, 
      tf_trapno = 10, tf_err = 0, tf_eip = -266612096, tf_cs = 8, 
      tf_eflags = 838, tf_esp = -266612175, tf_ss = -267289704})
    at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:403
#16 0xf01bd280 in Debugger (msg=0xf0117b98 "panic")
    at ../../i386/i386/db_interface.c:255
#17 0xf0117bfa in panic (fmt=0xf019ee11 "blkfree: freeing free block")
    at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:365
#18 0xf019efe3 in ffs_blkfree (ip=0xf1230200, bno=21768, size=8192)
    at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_alloc.c:1230
#19 0xf01a140a in ffs_indirtrunc (ip=0xf1230200, lbn=-12, dbn=11905184, 
    lastbn=-1, level=0, countp=0xefbffd24) at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_inode.c:500
#20 0xf01a0e48 in ffs_truncate (ap=0xefbffdfc) at
../../ufs/ffs/ffs_inode.c:317
#21 0xf01a4989 in ufs_inactive (ap=0xefbffe28) at vnode_if.h:1003
#22 0xf0136ecf in vrele (vp=0xf11d4200) at vnode_if.h:699
---Type <return> to continue, or q <return> to quit---
#23 0xf01b7bb1 in vnode_pager_dealloc (object=0xf1598f80)
    at ../../vm/vnode_pager.c:203
#24 0xf01b70b6 in vm_pager_deallocate (object=0xf1598f80)
    at ../../vm/vm_pager.c:177
#25 0xf01b24f0 in vm_object_terminate (object=0xf1598f80)
    at ../../vm/vm_object.c:416
#26 0xf01b232b in vm_object_deallocate (object=0xf1598f80)
    at ../../vm/vm_object.c:353
#27 0xf0136e18 in vrele (vp=0xf11d4200) at ../../kern/vfs_subr.c:881
#28 0xf0136dc3 in vput (vp=0xf11d4200) at ../../kern/vfs_subr.c:858
#29 0xf01a7dbc in ufs_remove (ap=0xefbffef4) at
../../ufs/ufs/ufs_vnops.c:695
#30 0xf0139145 in unlink (p=0xf1714a00, uap=0xefbfff94, retval=0xefbfff84)
    at vnode_if.h:459
#31 0xf01c6677 in syscall (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = 39, tf_edi =
-272639652, 
      tf_esi = -272639488, tf_ebp = -272639556, tf_isp = -272629788, 
      tf_ebx = -272639413, tf_edx = 0, tf_ecx = -272639697, tf_eax = 10, 
      tf_trapno = 12, tf_err = 7, tf_eip = 80117, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags =
582, 
      tf_esp = -272639676, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:890
#32 0x138f5 in ?? ()
#33 0x123a in ?? ()
#34 0x107e in ?? ()


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 16:50:25 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 19:47:48 -0400
From: "Danny J. Zerkel" <dzerkel@phofarm.com>
Organization: Photon Farmers
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I noticed the following message in /var/log/maillog:

May 16 17:26:22 feephi sendmail[124]: daemon invoked without full
pathname; kill -1 won't work

Should it be started as /usr/sbin/sendmail in /etc/rc instead?

Danny J. Zerkel
Photon Farmers
dzerkel@phofarm.com

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 17:08:42 1997
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	id 0wSX33-0000XW-00; Fri, 16 May 1997 18:08:33 -0600
To: Charles Henrich <henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu>
Subject: Re: vim vs. nvi? 
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 May 1997 17:06:25 EDT."
		<19970516170625.60057@crh.cl.msu.edu> 
References: <19970516170625.60057@crh.cl.msu.edu>  
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:08:32 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <19970516170625.60057@crh.cl.msu.edu> Charles Henrich writes:
: Has any thought been given to importing vim as FreeBSD's vi instead of nvi?
: 
: I've found that its syntax coloring improves life a remarkable amount!

Isn't vim already a port?

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 17:09:33 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 17:09:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jaye Mathisen  <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
To: Cameron Slye <cslye@calweb.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: panic: blkfree: freeing free block 
In-Reply-To: <199705162327.QAA12524@web1.calweb.com>
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I get the *exact* same problem, using almost exactly identical hardware.
(Same drives and controller, different MB).

On Fri, 16 May 1997, Cameron Slye wrote:

> Well, I am at a dead end..  I have low leveled the drive, I have newfsed the
> drive, I have cvsupped and installed new kernels for the last month..  Any
> ideas on this error ?
> 
> 
> Background on the system,  p133 running on a asus p55t2p4 with 128mb.  2
> 2940UW's, root drive a quantum XP31070W L912 the /news/spool drive is a
> TANDEM 4275-1 1717 (IBM OEM I belive) There is a dual port SMC card (Digital
> 21040)  
> 
> current pcb at 1efac8
> panic: blkfree: freeing free block
> #0  boot (howto=260) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243
> 243                                     dumppcb.pcb_cr3 = rcr3();
> 
> (kgdb) where
> #0  boot (howto=260) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243
> #1  0xf0117c03 in panic (fmt=0xf0101439 "from debugger")
>     at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:367
> #2  0xf0101455 in db_panic (dummy1=-266612103, dummy2=0, dummy3=-1, 
>     dummy4=0xefbff92c "") at ../../ddb/db_command.c:440
> #3  0xf0101345 in db_command (last_cmdp=0xf01e3b24, cmd_table=0xf01e3974, 
>     aux_cmd_tablep=0xf01fce54) at ../../ddb/db_command.c:337
> #4  0xf01014c2 in db_command_loop () at ../../ddb/db_command.c:462
> #5  0xf0103ca8 in db_trap (type=3, code=0) at ../../ddb/db_trap.c:73
> #6  0xf01bd07b in kdb_trap (type=3, code=0, regs=0xefbffa1c)
>     at ../../i386/i386/db_interface.c:126
> #7  0xf01c5c34 in trap (frame={tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 16, tf_edi = 0, 
>       tf_esi = -267381703, tf_ebp = -272631200, tf_isp = -272631228, 
>       tf_ebx = 260, tf_edx = -266612159, tf_ecx = -2147483648, tf_eax = 18, 
>       tf_trapno = 3, tf_err = 0, tf_eip = -266612103, tf_cs = 8, 
>       tf_eflags = 582, tf_esp = -266612175, tf_ss = -267289704})
>     at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:403
> #8  0xf01bd279 in Debugger (msg=0xf0117b98 "panic")
>     at ../../i386/i386/db_interface.c:254
> #9  0xf0117bfa in panic (fmt=0xf0101439 "from debugger")
>     at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:365
> #10 0xf0101455 in db_panic (dummy1=-266612096, dummy2=0, dummy3=-1, 
>     dummy4=0xefbffab0 "") at ../../ddb/db_command.c:440
> ---Type <return> to continue, or q <return> to quit---
> #11 0xf0101345 in db_command (last_cmdp=0xf01e3b24, cmd_table=0xf01e3974, 
>     aux_cmd_tablep=0xf01fce54) at ../../ddb/db_command.c:337
> #12 0xf01014c2 in db_command_loop () at ../../ddb/db_command.c:462
> #13 0xf0103ca8 in db_trap (type=10, code=0) at ../../ddb/db_trap.c:73
> #14 0xf01bd07b in kdb_trap (type=10, code=0, regs=0xefbffba0)
>     at ../../i386/i386/db_interface.c:126
> #15 0xf01c5c34 in trap (frame={tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 16, tf_edi = -251225900, 
>       tf_esi = -266736111, tf_ebp = -272630812, tf_isp = -272630840, 
>       tf_ebx = 256, tf_edx = -266612159, tf_ecx = -2147483648, tf_eax = 18, 
>       tf_trapno = 10, tf_err = 0, tf_eip = -266612096, tf_cs = 8, 
>       tf_eflags = 838, tf_esp = -266612175, tf_ss = -267289704})
>     at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:403
> #16 0xf01bd280 in Debugger (msg=0xf0117b98 "panic")
>     at ../../i386/i386/db_interface.c:255
> #17 0xf0117bfa in panic (fmt=0xf019ee11 "blkfree: freeing free block")
>     at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:365
> #18 0xf019efe3 in ffs_blkfree (ip=0xf1230200, bno=21768, size=8192)
>     at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_alloc.c:1230
> #19 0xf01a140a in ffs_indirtrunc (ip=0xf1230200, lbn=-12, dbn=11905184, 
>     lastbn=-1, level=0, countp=0xefbffd24) at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_inode.c:500
> #20 0xf01a0e48 in ffs_truncate (ap=0xefbffdfc) at
> ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_inode.c:317
> #21 0xf01a4989 in ufs_inactive (ap=0xefbffe28) at vnode_if.h:1003
> #22 0xf0136ecf in vrele (vp=0xf11d4200) at vnode_if.h:699
> ---Type <return> to continue, or q <return> to quit---
> #23 0xf01b7bb1 in vnode_pager_dealloc (object=0xf1598f80)
>     at ../../vm/vnode_pager.c:203
> #24 0xf01b70b6 in vm_pager_deallocate (object=0xf1598f80)
>     at ../../vm/vm_pager.c:177
> #25 0xf01b24f0 in vm_object_terminate (object=0xf1598f80)
>     at ../../vm/vm_object.c:416
> #26 0xf01b232b in vm_object_deallocate (object=0xf1598f80)
>     at ../../vm/vm_object.c:353
> #27 0xf0136e18 in vrele (vp=0xf11d4200) at ../../kern/vfs_subr.c:881
> #28 0xf0136dc3 in vput (vp=0xf11d4200) at ../../kern/vfs_subr.c:858
> #29 0xf01a7dbc in ufs_remove (ap=0xefbffef4) at
> ../../ufs/ufs/ufs_vnops.c:695
> #30 0xf0139145 in unlink (p=0xf1714a00, uap=0xefbfff94, retval=0xefbfff84)
>     at vnode_if.h:459
> #31 0xf01c6677 in syscall (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = 39, tf_edi =
> -272639652, 
>       tf_esi = -272639488, tf_ebp = -272639556, tf_isp = -272629788, 
>       tf_ebx = -272639413, tf_edx = 0, tf_ecx = -272639697, tf_eax = 10, 
>       tf_trapno = 12, tf_err = 7, tf_eip = 80117, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags =
> 582, 
>       tf_esp = -272639676, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:890
> #32 0x138f5 in ?? ()
> #33 0x123a in ?? ()
> #34 0x107e in ?? ()
> 


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 17:15:31 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:27:05 +1000 (EST)
From: "Daniel O'Callaghan" <danny@panda.hilink.com.au>
To: "Danny J. Zerkel" <dzerkel@phofarm.com>
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Danny J. Zerkel wrote:

> I noticed the following message in /var/log/maillog:
> 
> May 16 17:26:22 feephi sendmail[124]: daemon invoked without full
> pathname; kill -1 won't work
> 
> Should it be started as /usr/sbin/sendmail in /etc/rc instead?

Yes.  This has been changed in later versions.

Danny

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 17:32:31 1997
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Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:32:28 -0400
From: Charles Henrich <henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu>
To: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: vim vs. nvi?
References: <19970516201430.16279@crh.cl.msu.edu> <19970516170625.60057@crh.cl.msu.edu> <E0wSX33-0000XW-00@rover.village.org> <E0wSXGx-0000Yf-00@rover.village.org>
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On the subject of Re: vim vs. nvi?, Warner Losh stated:

> My initial reaction would be that we might not want to do that if any
> of the following are true:
> 	1) It has a bogus license (worse than nvi's)

I dont see *any* license information, except the startup: Vim is freely
distributable.

Vim works for 

    1. Generic
    2. Amiga
    3. MS-DOS
    4. Win32 (Windows NT and Windows 95)
    5. Archimedes
    6. Macintosh
    7. Unix
    8. OS/2 (with EMX 0.9b)
    9. Atari MiNT

    For BeBox see doc/os_bebox.txt.

> 	2) It is different enough by default from nvi and traditional
> 	   vi's to cause users grief.

The only thing I ran into when switching was vim uses u to undelete, and ^R to
redo, instead of the toggle as nvi operates.  (Once you get used to it, it
makes more sense the way vim does it..)

> or	3) It is significantly larger than nvi.

USER       PID %CPU %MEM   VSZ  RSS  TT  STAT STARTED       TIME COMMAND

henrich   9459  0.0  1.7   552 1080  p2  S+    8:30PM    0:00.03 nvi
henrich   9472  0.0  1.6   596  992  p4  S+    8:30PM    0:00.06 vim

---

I guess the only real way is to have some people in core who are vi users to
try it out and give it a spin and see what they think.  I myself am definatly
sold.. If not for the syntax coloring alone..

-Crh

       Charles Henrich     Michigan State University     henrich@msu.edu

                         http://pilot.msu.edu/~henrich

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 17:35:06 1997
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To: Charles Henrich <henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu>
Subject: Re: vim vs. nvi? 
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 May 1997 20:32:28 EDT."
		<19970516203228.50252@crh.cl.msu.edu> 
References: <19970516203228.50252@crh.cl.msu.edu>  <19970516201430.16279@crh.cl.msu.edu> <19970516170625.60057@crh.cl.msu.edu> <E0wSX33-0000XW-00@rover.village.org> <E0wSXGx-0000Yf-00@rover.village.org> 
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 18:34:58 -0600
From: Warner Losh <imp@village.org>
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In message <19970516203228.50252@crh.cl.msu.edu> Charles Henrich writes:
: I guess the only real way is to have some people in core who are vi users to
: try it out and give it a spin and see what they think.  I myself am definatly
: sold.. If not for the syntax coloring alone..

I'm not in core or use vi, but I have no problems.

Warner

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 17:52:54 1997
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From: Chris Timmons <skynyrd@opus.cts.cwu.edu>
To: Cameron Slye <cslye@calweb.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: panic: blkfree: freeing free block 
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It might not account for your problem and it may not be relevent to your
disk, but L912 firmware on the Atlas-I 4.3GB disk is a real dog and wound
up crashing my systems until Justin discovered that there was an upgrade
to L915.  You should search the -current archives for qntm and firmware
and gibbs to find his message and see if it applies to your quantum disk
as well.

-Chris



On Fri, 16 May 1997, Cameron Slye wrote:

> Well, I am at a dead end..  I have low leveled the drive, I have newfsed the
> drive, I have cvsupped and installed new kernels for the last month..  Any
> ideas on this error ?
> 
> 
> Background on the system,  p133 running on a asus p55t2p4 with 128mb.  2
> 2940UW's, root drive a quantum XP31070W L912 the /news/spool drive is a
> TANDEM 4275-1 1717 (IBM OEM I belive) There is a dual port SMC card (Digital
> 21040)  


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 18:21:20 1997
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From: Jim Durham <durham@w2xo.pgh.pa.us>
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Some time back, someone on this list mentioned patches to make
the Reveal soundcard sold by Egghead work with FreeBSD.

Anyone know about this?

regards,
Jim Durham

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 18:48:32 1997
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 19:20:49 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:20:39 +1000
From: David Dawes <dawes@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au>
To: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: URGENT:  Printing an X11 screen.  How?
References: <XFMail.970513000217.Shimon@i-Connect.Net> <19970516081335.CK23118@uriah.heep.sax.de> <19970516172805.61524@rf900.physics.usyd.edu.au> <19970516211945.OK30329@uriah.heep.sax.de>
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On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 09:19:45PM +0200, J Wunsch wrote:
>As David Dawes wrote:
>
>(Xprt)
>> >...i never figured out how to use it.
>> 
>> It is an X server, so you have to start it as a display which doesn't
>> clash with other servers you have running.  Try 'Xprt :1'.
>
>Hmm, do you perchance know how to `redirect' something to it (short of
>starting an entire client on this display)?

Like I said, I have no idea how to actually make use of it without
suitable Xp-aware clients.  These clients contact the Xprt server directly
when the user wants to print something.

There are some details about all this in the file
xc/programs/Xserver/XpConfig/README, which is part of the X11R6.3 source.

Here's the Overview section from that file:

  1.0  X Print Service Overview
  =============================

  The "X Print Service" technology allows X rendering to devices such as
  printers and fax.  Most of the service is available in the X11
  technology stack as Xp, with the remainder in the CDE technology stack
  as DtPrint.  Modifications have also been made to the Motif technology
  stack to support Xp and DtPrint.

  The Xp portion consists of:
     * Xp Extension for the X-Server (included in the X-Server Xprt)
     * Xp Extension API for the client side (libXp)
     * PCL ddx driver that converts core X to native PCL
     * Postscript ddx driver that converts core X to native Postscript
     * Raster ddx driver that generates xwd rasters which can be
       converted to PCL or Postscript rasters

  The DtPrint portion consists of:
     * A collection of print GUIs (libDtPrint)
     * A Print Dialog Manager that can assist a client in
       setting printing options (dtpdm, dtpdmd)
  
  From an X clients perspective, it can attach to one of two nearly
  identical X-Servers, a "Video" X-Server, and a "Print" X-Server
  which has the additional Xp capability but otherwise looks and 
  behaves the same.  

As you can see, the clients to actually make this useful are only
available with CDE.  To make it more generally useful, someone would
need to write some new clients.

David

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 19:21:15 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:19:38 +0900 (JST)
From: Michael Hancock <michaelh@cet.co.jp>
To: Christoph Kukulies <kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE>
cc: "David S. Miller" <davem@jenolan.rutgers.edu>, hutton@isi.edu,
        hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Christoph Kukulies wrote:

> Interesting.
> 
> a) I don't know how efficient the bzero() is (inline? #idef KERNEL?)
>    over a statementwise zeroing of a 20 byte structure and why this.

I think he's alluding to an object caching scheme where you don't
initialize structures except when you have to.  Doing nothing is always
faster no matter how much you optimize bzero.

Mike Hancock


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 19:48:20 1997
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From: Patrick <patrick@popper.paradigm2000.com>
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Hi,
   I want to connect the freebsd box to an ICL/DRS6000 Unix will use
term vt220. I already change the term in freebsd to vt220 but still
cannot get the right display. Any one know how to make it work?

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 20:03:31 1997
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To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, mrcpu@cdsnet.net
Subject: Re: What the heck is a "nfs send error 64 for server xxx"????
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From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 20:14:14 1997
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To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: YO!  This is getting crazy, folks!
Date: Fri, 16 May 1997 20:14:45 -0700
Message-ID: <21021.863838885@time.cdrom.com>
From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" <jkh@time.cdrom.com>
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Over the last week or so, -hackers has turned into something of a
sewer and I, for one, am about to unsubscribe due to the extremely LOW
signal-to-noise ratio now present in this list.

*Please* folks, remember the mailing list charters!  This mailing list
is for technical discussion relating to FreeBSD, it is not for the
discussion of black helicopters in Israel, sheep cloning or questions
about which modem to buy, such discussions only detracting from the
lists' intended purpose and scaring the people with actual technical
content into simply taking their discussions off-line (or unsubscribing
from -hackers altogether, as I'm about to do).

So, to summarize:

If you want to talk about black helicopters, send it to
freebsd-chat@freebsd.org.

If you want to talk about modems, send it to freebsd-hardware@freebsd.org
unless said modems have nothing to do with FreeBSD at all, in which
case you might either raise it in -chat or in a very *short* thread in
freebsd-isp.  Better still, go to comp.dcom.modems with it.

If you have a general FreeBSD question, send it to questions@freebsd.org

And above all, if you see a topic veering out of control, *check the
headers* before following up!  In a lot of cases, I'll take someone
to task over their wholly irrelevant postings and they'll respond with
"Oh, well, it was on the cc line and I didn't pay any attention to it."
SO PAY ATTENTION! :-)  You're still responsible for where your postings
go, whether you originally set the cc line or not.

Thank you!

					Jordan


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 20:16:04 1997
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From: Eivind Eklund <perhaps@yes.no>
To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
CC: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co, sec@42.org,
        freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
In-reply-to: dennis's message of Fri, 16 May 1997 10:11:06 -0400
Subject: Re: if_de.c ????
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> >This is what I had to do with mine.  It came with a configuration
> >diskette, so when I first installed it I had a bunch of IRQ conflicts with
> >something or other, so I'd jump back to DOS, change settings, back to
> >FreeBSD, try it out... 
> >
> >I'd rather have jumpers to deal with, but I guess this is progress.
> 
> DOS? Whats that?

Denial Of Service.  It is what happens when you have to run a program
under a Microsoft OS on your FreeBSD machine.  To configure a card for
FreeBSD, in this case.

Eivind.

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 20:56:48 1997
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To: Chuck Robey <chuckr@glue.umd.edu>
cc: Mark Tinguely <tinguely@plains.nodak.edu>, black@zen.cypher.net,
        sthaug@nethelp.no, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
From: "Louis A. Mamakos" <louie@TransSys.COM>
Subject: Re: Why use ATM, (was Cluster Computing in BSD) 
References: <Pine.BSF.3.91.970516171733.7298E-100000@Journey2.mat.net> 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 May 1997 17:27:36 EDT."
             <Pine.BSF.3.91.970516171733.7298E-100000@Journey2.mat.net> 
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> You say that ATM is losing out to ip and (perhaps) to Sonet.  This is 
> juggling the protocol levels badly in my mind, because SONET is a link 
> level protocol (so it isn't encapsulateable by anything), while ATM 
> isn't, it needs a link level protocol to ride on.  What I'm saying, is I 
> don't think that ATM can be in competition with SONET; that's why your 
> statement confuses me.

I think that the comparison is between running IP as packets framed in
a SONET payload as compared with running IP sliced/diced into ATM cells
which are transported in a SONET payload.

In both cases, you're using SONET framing and transmission.  The like
comparison is running IP in PPP on DS3 framed in HDLC as compared to
IP in ATM "classical IP" on DS3.

Why is this significant?  I ponder this question in my "day job" doing
network architecture and strategic technology planning for a large
ISP.  (Do a traceroute, and I'm sure you'll be able to tell which :-)
There are two advantages to using variable-length packet over SONET
compared to ATM over SONET:

1.  The cell tax.  The economics of the Internet business are pretty
easy to understand; the predominant recurring costs are for long-haul
transmission facilities; being at a 10% or 15% disadvantage in utilization
of these expensive and scarce resources is significant and visible on
the bottome line.

2.  Implementation effort.  Consider the end-station (host or router).  Do
think it's going to be easier to build an OC-48c (2.5Gb/s) SAR devices, or
an OC-48c HDLC framer?  How much fiendishly expensive statis SRAM will
you need on the OC-48c ATM interface for packet reassembly buffers.  (Before
you can answer that question, you need to know how many VCs the interface
needs to handle).  

If you're only doing IP (and its not like most Internet networks have all 
this excess capacity available to be shared for other services), why
slice/dice/reassemble?  

There will be OC48 routers and switches next year, that run multiple 
wire-speed ports at OC48 rates.  If not, then we're all in a world of
hurt given the growth rates of the Internet.  The thing that makes ATM
switches go fast isn't the fixed 53 byte packet size; its the short
address in a fixed location it routes/switches on.  You can observe
that Frame Relay, for instance, shares this characteristic using variable
length frames.

> On top of that, I thought that ATM was being used as a way to link LANs, 
> so ip would be routed over ATM links, and again, not competitive.  You 
> could conceivably have a SONET link that had an ATM constituent, which 
> was carrying an ip message inside it.  That's the way I understood it, 
> and that example was (supposedly) fairly common, at least as common as 
> SONET itself is.
> 
> Where am I wrong?

SONET framing is the linga franca of the optical transmission world, and
gets used for lots of stuff.  The vast majority of it (in miles, anyway)
isn't ATM, but TDM payloads (usually 45Mb/s DS3 circuits) carried as
payload, having been muxed up.

In the LAN market, it's going to be real hard to understand why 100Base-T
isn't going to display ATM to the desktop, and perhaps gigabit ethernet
displaing ATM in the LAN "trunking" application.  There are some nifty
things you can do with ATM if you can afford to pay the overhad (both
bandwidth and implementation costs), but it's going to be application
specific.

louie



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Fri May 16 21:38:22 1997
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unsubscribe hackers-freebsd.org sansan131@Cyberlib.itb.ac.id

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 00:25:02 1997
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From: Bourne-again Superuser <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199705170722.CAA00463@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: vim vs. nvi?i
In-Reply-To: <19970516203228.50252@crh.cl.msu.edu> from Charles Henrich at "May 16, 97 08:32:28 pm"
To: henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu (Charles Henrich)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 02:22:43 -0500 (EST)
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> 
> I guess the only real way is to have some people in core who are vi users to
> try it out and give it a spin and see what they think.  I myself am definatly
> sold.. If not for the syntax coloring alone..
> 
FYI, I have been using vim for the last couple of years.  I like the
(relatively new) Xwindows mode also.  Also, vim feels more like the
real vi to me :-).  (Just a personal opinion.)

John

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 00:25:30 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:20:21 +0200
From: j@uriah.heep.sax.de (J Wunsch)
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: charlespeters@tecpro.com (Charles A. Peters)
Subject: Re: FreeBSD 2.1.5 August 1996 - Server Installation
References: <199705150340.XAA20538@ais.ais-gwd.com>
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As Charles A. Peters wrote:

> I will be setting up a web / ftp / mail server, and I am planning to 
> use FreeBSD 2.1.5.  I am wondering how stable this version is and if 
> there are any special problems that I may encounter.

FreeBSD 2.1.x with x <= 6 has a serious security vulnerability.  It is
assumed that it's only exploitable by local users (thus might not be a
problem when installing a server), but i would be careful.

Also, version 2.1.7.1 has a number of other bugfixes.

-- 
cheers, J"org

joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE
Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-)

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 01:14:45 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:14:19 +0100 (BST)
From: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
Reply-To: Doug Rabson <dfr@nlsystems.com>
To: Jaye Mathisen <mrcpu@cdsnet.net>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: What the heck is a "nfs send error 64 for server xxx"????
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.95.970516184805.1055r-100000@mail.cdsnet.net>
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It means the sosend returned error 64 when it tried to send a packet.
Error 64 is EHOSTDOWN.

--
Doug Rabson				Mail:  dfr@nlsystems.com
Nonlinear Systems Ltd.			Phone: +44 181 951 1891



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 01:35:29 1997
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References: Your message of "Mon, 12 May 1997 11:55:03 +0100."            
 <l03020900af9c9cb4b9a7@[194.32.164.2]>
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 09:24:42 +0100
To: hackers@freebsd.org
From: Bob Bishop <rb@gid.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Broken CTM increment?
Cc: David Nugent <davidn@labs.usn.blaze.net.au>
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Anyone? Something strange happened here, but I rebuilt my source tree
starting from src-cur.2700A and the problem went away (the original message
was mine).

At 18:35 +0100 14/5/97, David Nugent wrote:
>>  Has anyone successfull applied CTM src-cur.2881? I get:
>>
>>  >hal# ctm -v -v ../deltas/*2881*
>>  >Working on <../deltas/src-cur.2881.gz>
>>  >Expecting Global MD5 <9d4fd8dc5ce9b5ca5532ed144b265b78>
>>  >Reference Global MD5 <9d4fd8dc5ce9b5ca5532ed144b265b78>
>>  >  FR: include/login_cap.h md5 mismatch.
>>  >Exit(72)
>
>
>Ouch. Does removing a file from the source tree (actually, it was
>moved from src/include to src/lib/libutil) break CTM? That's what
>was done in this case.
>
>include/login_cap.h should no longer exist.
>
>Regards,
>David



--
Bob Bishop              (0118) 977 4017  international code +44 118
rb@gid.co.uk        fax (0118) 989 4254  between 0800 and 1800 UK



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 01:40:16 1997
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Message-ID: <19970517101925.03846@klemm.gtn.com>
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 10:19:25 +0200
From: Andreas Klemm <andreas@klemm.gtn.com>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Cc: asami@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: ccd question
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Hi !

I have a typical "FreeBSD-hacker home site" and want to repartition
my disks to get best throughput for "make world's" and "cvs checkouts"
and such.

I'm having three 2.1 GB disks. On the first disk I have to keep Windows
stuff in the first GB, so I have 5 GB free for FreeBSD.

I'm just trying to decide, if it would be a good idea, to use the
ccd driver for the whole 2nd and 3rd disk to do disk striping.

I'd then install the whole OS onto the first disk (the remaining 1GB
at the end of the disk and then use a 4.2GB stripe set consisting
of the remaining two disks.

Or would it be better to arrange the disks as follows:

sd0:	1GB Win  | 66M swap | 200M /usr/obj | 500M cvs | 100M squid | 200M news
sd1:	66M swap | 32M root | 128M var | 200M /usr/src | 1.7GB /usr
sd2:	66M swap | 2GB /local, user accounts, "make release"

So doing 
	- "cvs update -P"	reads from sd0 and writes to sd1
	- "make world"		reads from sd1 and writes to sd0
	- "make install"	reads from sd0 and writes to sd1
	- "make release"	- copies from sd0 to sd2
				- "cvs checkout's" from sd0 to sd2
				- compiles from sd2 to sd0 (objdir)

And I have lots of space for doing various things on sd2

Currently I'm using this scheme, which was a must for me, when
I needed sd0 for 1GB Win and 1GB BSDI 3.0.

Filesystem  1K-blocks     Used    Avail Capacity  Mounted on
/dev/sd1a       47183    16741    26668    39%    /
/dev/sd1s1e    193855    78402    99945    44%    /var
/dev/sd1s1f    183183    86104    82425    51%    /news
/dev/sd1s1g     87919    38508    42378    48%    /www
/dev/sd1s1h   1417295  1102493   201419    85%    /usr
/dev/sd2s1e   1953663  1369374   427996    76%    /local


BTW, how would you organize the striped disks, what would you put
on that ?

sd0	1GB Win | 32MB root | 180M swap | 128M /var | 700M usr

sd1	/local with: cvs, news, squid proxy,
sd2

Or would it be better/possible to create several stripes ?

sd0	1GB Win | 32MB root | 128M /var | 100M /usr/obj | 850M usr

sd1     100M swap | 5 stripes: 100M news | 50M squid | 250M cvs | 100M /usr/src
						1400M /local
sd2     100M swap | 5 stripes: 100M news | 50M squid | 250M cvs | 100M /usr/src
						1400M /local

Would be nice if you could give me some hints.

	Andreas ///

-- 
Andreas Klemm | klemm.gtn.com - powered by
                    Symmetric MultiProcessor FreeBSD
                       http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/SMP.html
                          http://www.freebsd.org/~fsmp/SMP/benches.html

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 02:56:25 1997
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From: Søren Schmidt <sos@sos.freebsd.dk>
Message-Id: <199705170936.LAA22846@sos.freebsd.dk>
Subject: Re: ccd question
In-Reply-To: <19970517101925.03846@klemm.gtn.com> from Andreas Klemm at "May 17, 97 10:19:25 am"
To: andreas@klemm.gtn.com (Andreas Klemm)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 11:36:48 +0200 (MEST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org, asami@freebsd.org
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In reply to Andreas Klemm who wrote:
> Hi !
> 
> I have a typical "FreeBSD-hacker home site" and want to repartition
> my disks to get best throughput for "make world's" and "cvs checkouts"
> and such.
> 
> I'm having three 2.1 GB disks. On the first disk I have to keep Windows
> stuff in the first GB, so I have 5 GB free for FreeBSD.
> 
> I'm just trying to decide, if it would be a good idea, to use the
> ccd driver for the whole 2nd and 3rd disk to do disk striping.
> 
> I'd then install the whole OS onto the first disk (the remaining 1GB
> at the end of the disk and then use a 4.2GB stripe set consisting
> of the remaining two disks.
> 
> Or would it be better to arrange the disks as follows:
> 
> sd0:	1GB Win  | 66M swap | 200M /usr/obj | 500M cvs | 100M squid | 200M news
> sd1:	66M swap | 32M root | 128M var | 200M /usr/src | 1.7GB /usr
> sd2:	66M swap | 2GB /local, user accounts, "make release"
> 
> So doing 
> 	- "cvs update -P"	reads from sd0 and writes to sd1
> 	- "make world"		reads from sd1 and writes to sd0
> 	- "make install"	reads from sd0 and writes to sd1
> 	- "make release"	- copies from sd0 to sd2
> 				- "cvs checkout's" from sd0 to sd2
> 				- compiles from sd2 to sd0 (objdir)
> 
> And I have lots of space for doing various things on sd2

This seems like the most ideel setup (very much like mine :) )
I've tried ccd'ing two disks together, but that forced me to have
src & obj on the same ccd device, that actually costs
performance. It is much better to have src & obj on different
spindles. If you can have a ccd device AND have src & obj
on diffrent spindles then that would of cause be a win...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt               (sos@FreeBSD.org)               FreeBSD Core Team
                Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 03:56:57 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:56:51 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Johan Larsson <gozer@ludd.luth.se>
To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Probing time.
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Is there any way to make the probing time for wdc1 smaller? It is then my
computer boots and it stops for about 20 seconds right after that the wdc0
and the disks connected do it been found. I have an ATAPI cdrom as
master on that controller, but it is the same then i have an ordinary
harddrive connected to it. Thanks in advance for any answers :-)

		/ Johan  
-- 
     * mailto:gozer@ludd.luth.se * http://www.ludd.luth.se/users/gozer/ *


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 07:51:02 1997
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To: Sren Schmidt <sos@sos.freebsd.dk>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG (FreeBSD hackers)
Subject: Re: bidirectional PPP possible ?? 
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             <199705152239.AAA17476@sos.freebsd.dk> 
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> 
> I have a problem...
> 
> I want to have my PPP connection to my ISP demand dialed both ways, 
> ie the one who has some packets to deliver opens the line.
> 
> I have it sortof running by using a ppp -auto as my demand dialer,
> and having a ppp hanging off a ppp aware getty on the same modem.
> 
> The problem is that the -auto ppp set a default route, which
> points to tun0, now when a call comes in its answered and the ppp
> comes up on tun1 which should now be the default, and as expected
> this doesn't work :(
> If I kill the ppp -auto when the call comes in, it works, but
> I cannot get it to start a new one on exit, so I'm lost again...
> 
> I have fixed IP# in both ends (which I can control), and I need
> to route my little network over the line.
> 
> Any ideas ?? sombody have this working ??

How about a ppp.linkup that does a

my-in-label:
 ! sh -c "kill `cat /var/run/tun?.pid`"
 delete ALL
 add 0 0 HISADDR

(or something) and a dialin .profile that says

ppp -direct my-in-label
exec ppp -auto my-out-label

> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Søren Schmidt               (sos@FreeBSD.org)               FreeBSD Core Team
>                 Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
> ..

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 08:34:34 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:06:10 +0200
From: Ollivier Robert <roberto@keltia.freenix.fr>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Non-Intel CPUs and FreeBSD - any K6-200/233s out there?
References: <199705090323.UAA06913@hub.freebsd.org> <19970513205246.27345@ct.picker.com> <19970516200726.12383@keltia.freenix.fr>
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According to Ollivier Robert:
> I'll be running a K6/166 (probably at 2.5x 83 MHz) to replace my P133 (at
> 166/83) tomorrow so we'll see :-)

I have trouble with the K6/166 running at 2.5x 83 MHz so I have it running
at 2.5x 75 MHz. Seems fine now. If running a T2P4, you'll need to upgrade
your BIOS up to 2.03 (2.02 has a few problems with the K6 and 2.03 was out
today or yesterday).

Copyright (c) 1992-1997 FreeBSD Inc.
Copyright (c) 1982, 1986, 1989, 1991, 1993
	The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved.
FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #9: Thu May  8 20:22:51 CEST 1997
    roberto@keltia.freenix.fr:/src/src/sys/compile/NKELTIA
CPU: AMD K6 (187.94-MHz 586-class CPU)
  Origin = "AuthenticAMD"  Id = 0x561  Stepping=1
  Features=0x8001bf<FPU,VME,DE,PSE,TSC,MSR,MCE,CX8>

Kernel compile time went from 4'50" down to 3'30".
-- 
Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: There are no limits -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr
FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #9: Thu May  8 20:22:51 CEST 1997

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 09:37:29 1997
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To: S ren Schmidt <sos@sos.freebsd.dk>
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Subject: Re: Digiboard RealPort protocol ?? 
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> 
> Anybody having any info on how this is implemented ??
> 
> If I can get my hands on this, I'll write a driver for
> it asap, if I need to reverseengineer it, well, it will
> take a little longer, but it is legal here in the EU :)
> 
> (Digiboard are you listening??)
Is this the same protocol used for the DigiChannel Boxes??  I have access to 
about 80 ports worth of digichannel's from a customer that upgraded his NCR to 
an HP9000, including the EISA interface cards for them (Do they make PCI?). I 
would be willing to throw my weight into a project to make these boxes work 
with FreeBSD, if I could find out what is required to talk to them.

	brian

BTW> The last UNIX driver I wrote was my own version of a driver for the 
non-intelligent Digiboard 4 Channel boards (there's was broken at the time).  
I later ported it to MS-DOS when we moved the office system software there.
Just pointing out I may be a leetle rusty.



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 09:50:39 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 08:37:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199705171237.IAA04184@lakes.water.net>
To: ponds!calweb.com!cslye, ponds!FreeBSD.ORG!hackers
Subject: Re: panic: blkfree: freeing free block
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> 
> Well, I am at a dead end..  I have low leveled the drive, I have newfsed the
> drive, I have cvsupped and installed new kernels for the last month..  Any
> ideas on this error ?

 This is exactly the panic I see every day - look in the mail archives
for "daily panic" and "freeing free inode" panics.  You'll see we've
been trying to nail this one for some time.

 Anyway - I can tell you this:

	I have reproduced it on a small system.  Which is good for
	testing potential fixes.

	Every version of FreeBSD since 2.1.0 has suffered from this
	problem.

	If you adjust the cluster size in the newfs parms, you can
	usually mask the problem.  That is, you'll run longer.  I'm
	not at all convinced it solves the problem - just moves it
	to a less likely location.

 - Dave Rivers -

> 
> 
> Background on the system,  p133 running on a asus p55t2p4 with 128mb.  2
> 2940UW's, root drive a quantum XP31070W L912 the /news/spool drive is a
> TANDEM 4275-1 1717 (IBM OEM I belive) There is a dual port SMC card (Digital
> 21040)  
> 
> current pcb at 1efac8
> panic: blkfree: freeing free block
> #0  boot (howto=260) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243
> 243                                     dumppcb.pcb_cr3 = rcr3();
> 
> (kgdb) where
> #0  boot (howto=260) at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:243
> #1  0xf0117c03 in panic (fmt=0xf0101439 "from debugger")
>     at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:367
> #2  0xf0101455 in db_panic (dummy1=-266612103, dummy2=0, dummy3=-1, 
>     dummy4=0xefbff92c "") at ../../ddb/db_command.c:440
> #3  0xf0101345 in db_command (last_cmdp=0xf01e3b24, cmd_table=0xf01e3974, 
>     aux_cmd_tablep=0xf01fce54) at ../../ddb/db_command.c:337
> #4  0xf01014c2 in db_command_loop () at ../../ddb/db_command.c:462
> #5  0xf0103ca8 in db_trap (type=3, code=0) at ../../ddb/db_trap.c:73
> #6  0xf01bd07b in kdb_trap (type=3, code=0, regs=0xefbffa1c)
>     at ../../i386/i386/db_interface.c:126
> #7  0xf01c5c34 in trap (frame={tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 16, tf_edi = 0, 
>       tf_esi = -267381703, tf_ebp = -272631200, tf_isp = -272631228, 
>       tf_ebx = 260, tf_edx = -266612159, tf_ecx = -2147483648, tf_eax = 18, 
>       tf_trapno = 3, tf_err = 0, tf_eip = -266612103, tf_cs = 8, 
>       tf_eflags = 582, tf_esp = -266612175, tf_ss = -267289704})
>     at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:403
> #8  0xf01bd279 in Debugger (msg=0xf0117b98 "panic")
>     at ../../i386/i386/db_interface.c:254
> #9  0xf0117bfa in panic (fmt=0xf0101439 "from debugger")
>     at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:365
> #10 0xf0101455 in db_panic (dummy1=-266612096, dummy2=0, dummy3=-1, 
>     dummy4=0xefbffab0 "") at ../../ddb/db_command.c:440
> ---Type <return> to continue, or q <return> to quit---
> #11 0xf0101345 in db_command (last_cmdp=0xf01e3b24, cmd_table=0xf01e3974, 
>     aux_cmd_tablep=0xf01fce54) at ../../ddb/db_command.c:337
> #12 0xf01014c2 in db_command_loop () at ../../ddb/db_command.c:462
> #13 0xf0103ca8 in db_trap (type=10, code=0) at ../../ddb/db_trap.c:73
> #14 0xf01bd07b in kdb_trap (type=10, code=0, regs=0xefbffba0)
>     at ../../i386/i386/db_interface.c:126
> #15 0xf01c5c34 in trap (frame={tf_es = 16, tf_ds = 16, tf_edi = -251225900, 
>       tf_esi = -266736111, tf_ebp = -272630812, tf_isp = -272630840, 
>       tf_ebx = 256, tf_edx = -266612159, tf_ecx = -2147483648, tf_eax = 18, 
>       tf_trapno = 10, tf_err = 0, tf_eip = -266612096, tf_cs = 8, 
>       tf_eflags = 838, tf_esp = -266612175, tf_ss = -267289704})
>     at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:403
> #16 0xf01bd280 in Debugger (msg=0xf0117b98 "panic")
>     at ../../i386/i386/db_interface.c:255
> #17 0xf0117bfa in panic (fmt=0xf019ee11 "blkfree: freeing free block")
>     at ../../kern/kern_shutdown.c:365
> #18 0xf019efe3 in ffs_blkfree (ip=0xf1230200, bno=21768, size=8192)
>     at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_alloc.c:1230
> #19 0xf01a140a in ffs_indirtrunc (ip=0xf1230200, lbn=-12, dbn=11905184, 
>     lastbn=-1, level=0, countp=0xefbffd24) at ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_inode.c:500
> #20 0xf01a0e48 in ffs_truncate (ap=0xefbffdfc) at
> ../../ufs/ffs/ffs_inode.c:317
> #21 0xf01a4989 in ufs_inactive (ap=0xefbffe28) at vnode_if.h:1003
> #22 0xf0136ecf in vrele (vp=0xf11d4200) at vnode_if.h:699
> ---Type <return> to continue, or q <return> to quit---
> #23 0xf01b7bb1 in vnode_pager_dealloc (object=0xf1598f80)
>     at ../../vm/vnode_pager.c:203
> #24 0xf01b70b6 in vm_pager_deallocate (object=0xf1598f80)
>     at ../../vm/vm_pager.c:177
> #25 0xf01b24f0 in vm_object_terminate (object=0xf1598f80)
>     at ../../vm/vm_object.c:416
> #26 0xf01b232b in vm_object_deallocate (object=0xf1598f80)
>     at ../../vm/vm_object.c:353
> #27 0xf0136e18 in vrele (vp=0xf11d4200) at ../../kern/vfs_subr.c:881
> #28 0xf0136dc3 in vput (vp=0xf11d4200) at ../../kern/vfs_subr.c:858
> #29 0xf01a7dbc in ufs_remove (ap=0xefbffef4) at
> ../../ufs/ufs/ufs_vnops.c:695
> #30 0xf0139145 in unlink (p=0xf1714a00, uap=0xefbfff94, retval=0xefbfff84)
>     at vnode_if.h:459
> #31 0xf01c6677 in syscall (frame={tf_es = 39, tf_ds = 39, tf_edi =
> -272639652, 
>       tf_esi = -272639488, tf_ebp = -272639556, tf_isp = -272629788, 
>       tf_ebx = -272639413, tf_edx = 0, tf_ecx = -272639697, tf_eax = 10, 
>       tf_trapno = 12, tf_err = 7, tf_eip = 80117, tf_cs = 31, tf_eflags =
> 582, 
>       tf_esp = -272639676, tf_ss = 39}) at ../../i386/i386/trap.c:890
> #32 0x138f5 in ?? ()
> #33 0x123a in ?? ()
> #34 0x107e in ?? ()
> 
> 

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 09:50:41 1997
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From: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
Message-Id: <199705171239.IAA04196@lakes.water.net>
To: imp@village.org, ponds!crh.cl.msu.edu!henrich
Subject: Re: vim vs. nvi?
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> In message <19970516203228.50252@crh.cl.msu.edu> Charles Henrich writes:
> : I guess the only real way is to have some people in core who are vi users to
> : try it out and give it a spin and see what they think.  I myself am definatly
> : sold.. If not for the syntax coloring alone..
> 
> I'm not in core or use vi, but I have no problems.
> 
> Warner
> 

 I like vim - except for one failing.

 When you move the cursor to the end-of-the-line (e.g. with '$'), and
then press <space> it should beep.  In vim, it moves to the beginning
of the next line.

 I frequently perform that operation to ensure there's nothing remaining
on the line, as in checking that the backslash is the last character.
I find the difference very annoying...

	- Dave Rivers -

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 10:07:21 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 12:07:12 -0500
From: Dan Nelson <dnelson@emsphone.com>
To: Johan Larsson <gozer@ludd.luth.se>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: Probing time.
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In the last episode (May 17), Johan Larsson said:
> Is there any way to make the probing time for wdc1 smaller? It is
> when my computer boots and it stops for about 20 seconds right after
> that the wdc0 and the disks connected to it been found. I have an
> ATAPI cdrom as master on that controller, but it is the same when i
> have an ordinary harddrive connected to it. Thanks in advance for any
> answers :-)

Take a look at /sys/i386/isa/wd.c . The first #define after all the
#includes is

#define TIMEOUT 10000

Every time wdwait() is called, it waits for TIMEOUT ms for a response
from an IDE device.  I added a little debugging, and with my kernel,
wdwait() times out 3 times during probing.  That would be around 30
seconds.

Try decreasing the TIMEOUT define and see if that helps.  I have
TIMEOUT set at 2000, and everything still works.  Your mileage may
vary, depending on how old your IDE devices are.

	-Dan Nelson
	dnelson@emsphone.com


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 10:19:34 1997
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From: sec@42.org (Stefan `Sec` Zehl)
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Subject: Re: RFC.. Proposal.. file flag No-delete
Date: 17 May 1997 19:19:18 +0200
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In article <337B4E06.1B37ADEA@whistle.com>, Julian Elischer wrote:
> > I think giving SGID the same mening relative to group for directories
> > as the sticky bit is a much less intrusive change than the "delete"
> > change.
> > 
> Isn't there a normal use for SUID and SGID fro directories?
> I've been racking my brains and can't think of one,
> except that SOME systems use SGID on a dir to mean "Do not inherrit
> group from this directory"

On HP-UX SUID Directorys are used for their CDF's (Context dependet Files)
which is a strange but funny concept (i like it though)
resulting in a normal directory to be hidden if you chmod u+s it

CU,
	Sec
-- 
Fuer die Raupe ist es das Ende der Welt,
Fuer den Rest der Welt ist es ein Schmetterling
							    Error 0: No error

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 10:24:26 1997
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From: sec@42.org (Stefan `Sec` Zehl)
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In article <199705151747.TAA01620@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de>, Christoph Kukulies wrote:
> And to get to the problem again:
> 
> how come that nice 20 get 50% CPU against a competing job running at nice
> level 5?

Hmm, i really don't know :) but you could put the nice20 process on 
idletime-priority (man idprio) and you wouldn't even notice that it runs :) 

Dont know if that helps you though...

CU,
	Sec
-- 
Fuer die Raupe ist es das Ende der Welt,
Fuer den Rest der Welt ist es ein Schmetterling
							    Error 0: No error

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 10:37:25 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:37:08 +0200
From: Stefan `Sec` Zehl <sec@42.org>
To: Branson Matheson <branson.matheson@ferginc.com>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: NFS Stale File Handle.
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I-love-doing-this: really
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On Fri, May 16, 1997 at 10:53:40PM +0200, Branson Matheson wrote:
> 
>  I have an NFS stale file handle on a box that was placed there by amd
>  I believe. I cannot seem to get rid of it... any ideas? I was told
>  that there may be a process still trying to access that unmounted
>  partition... but I cannot find it ... I seem to remember another way
>  to do this .. but cannot remember .. can anyone point me in the right
>  direction? 

Hmm, i'm not sure about the "process that accesses it", but if it is
indeed so, try "lsof" which will help you finding that process :) - 
otherwise you could try an umount -f (for forcible umount) which might
help aswell

CU,
    Sec

-- 
I didn't say we *can't* do it. In fact we can. We also can calculate digits
of sqrt(2) in the background, drive space shuttles, or have an AI algorithm
write poems in Swahili while inside the pager.      -- daia@stoilow.imar.ro

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 11:29:22 1997
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cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-sf@arachna.com
Subject: Re: San Francisco FreeBSD User's Group 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 May 1997 08:54:40 PDT."
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Hi Folks,

On Monday we will be broadcasting the San Francisco User's Group 
meeting on the mbone.

If you use sdr just click on the FreeBSD Lounge channel to get to the 
menu to launch vic or vat. Alternatively, you can start vic or vat 
from the command line :

vat -r -t 127 224.2.100.100/16400
vic -t 127 224.2.100.102/49200

	Enjoy
	Amancio


>From The Desk Of Josef Grosch :
> Ian Kallen is pretty busy so....
> 
> The San Francisco FreeBSD User's Group will hold it's next meeting on
> Monday, May 19 at 6:30 pm. We will be meeting at Internet Alfredo which is
> located at 790-A Brannan Street in San Fracisco. The cross stree is 7th.
> 
> For futher information check our web site;
> 
>     http://www.arachna.com/freebsd/freebsd-sf.html
> 
> A quick show of hand would help with the planing. Also, we may be short on
> chairs so bring your floding chairs.
> 
> 
> Josef
> 
> -- 
> Josef Grosch           | Another day closer to a |    FreeBSD 2.2.1
> jgrosch@MooseRiver.com |   Micro$oft free world  | UNIX for the masses
> 



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 12:12:36 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:30:56 +0100
From: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
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Hi,

I don't know who the current web-meister is, but would it be
possible for you to do the following ?

The intention is to have browsable -current set of man pages.

In srm.conf:
----------
AddType text/man 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1.gz 2.gz 3.gz 4.gz 5.gz 6.gz 7.gz 8.gz 9.gz
Action text/man /cgi-bin/man2html
----------

man2html:
----------
#! /bin/sh

if test -n "$PATH_TRANSLATED"; then
    test ."${PATH_TRANSLATED%.gz}" = ."$PATH_TRANSLATED" &&
        prog=/bin/cat || prog="/usr/bin/gunzip -c"
    $prog $PATH_TRANSLATED |
        /usr/bin/tbl |
        /usr/bin/groff -Wall -mtty-char -Tascii -man |
        /usr/bin/col |
        sed 's/.^H//g'
else
    echo "Internal server error.... oops !"
fi
----------

All we need to do then is point at a -current /usr/share/man
(cvs co'd regularly) somewhere under "Documentation", allowing
"options Indexes".

Thanks for any responses.
-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 13:01:54 1997
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From: Søren Schmidt <sos@sos.freebsd.dk>
Message-Id: <199705172001.WAA23732@sos.freebsd.dk>
Subject: Re: bidirectional PPP possible ??
In-Reply-To: <199705170411.FAA21692@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> from Brian Somers at "May 17, 97 05:11:50 am"
To: brian@awfulhak.org (Brian Somers)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:01:58 +0200 (MEST)
Cc: hackers@freebsd.org
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In reply to Brian Somers who wrote:
> > 
> > I want to have my PPP connection to my ISP demand dialed both ways, 
> > ie the one who has some packets to deliver opens the line.
> > 
> > I have it sortof running by using a ppp -auto as my demand dialer,
> > and having a ppp hanging off a ppp aware getty on the same modem.
> > 
> > Any ideas ?? sombody have this working ??
> 
> How about a ppp.linkup that does a
> 
> my-in-label:
>  ! sh -c "kill `cat /var/run/tun?.pid`"
>  delete ALL
>  add 0 0 HISADDR
> 
> (or something) and a dialin .profile that says
> 
> ppp -direct my-in-label
> exec ppp -auto my-out-label

Thats the problem, ppp will not accept a new default route on the
tun interface right away, it "waits just a while" and exits
and this all breaks....

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt               (sos@FreeBSD.org)               FreeBSD Core Team
                Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 13:05:00 1997
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Message-Id: <199705172004.WAA23739@sos.freebsd.dk>
Subject: Re: Digiboard RealPort protocol ??
In-Reply-To: <199705171635.LAA24908@bmccane.uit.net> from Wm Brian McCane at "May 17, 97 11:35:58 am"
To: root@bmccane.uit.net (Wm Brian McCane)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 22:04:54 +0200 (MEST)
Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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In reply to Wm Brian McCane who wrote:
> > 
> > Anybody having any info on how this is implemented ??
> > 
> > If I can get my hands on this, I'll write a driver for
> > it asap, if I need to reverseengineer it, well, it will
> > take a little longer, but it is legal here in the EU :)
> > 
> > (Digiboard are you listening??)
> Is this the same protocol used for the DigiChannel Boxes??  I have access to 
> about 80 ports worth of digichannel's from a customer that upgraded his NCR to 
> an HP9000, including the EISA interface cards for them (Do they make PCI?). I 
> would be willing to throw my weight into a project to make these boxes work 
> with FreeBSD, if I could find out what is required to talk to them.

Donno, the realport protocol are used to control the PortServer products
from the host so it looks like a bunch of normal tty ports to the
programs running on the host...

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Søren Schmidt               (sos@FreeBSD.org)               FreeBSD Core Team
                Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
..

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 14:38:25 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 16:38:18 -0500 (EST)
From: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
To: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: www.freebsd.org
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On Sat, 17 May 1997, Brian Somers wrote:

> I don't know who the current web-meister is, but would it be
> possible for you to do the following ?

webmaster@freebsd.org works, so does www@freebsd.org.

> The intention is to have browsable -current set of man pages.

Anything wrong with the -current man pages available on the
www.freebsd.org/docs.html page?

-john


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 14:46:45 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:46:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Tao <taob@nbc.netcom.ca>
To: dk+@ua.net
cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: NFS service mysteriously stopping on 2.2-RELENG?
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On Fri, 9 May 1997, Dmitry Kohmanyuk wrote:
>
> > May  7 17:48:24 shell1 kernel: short receive (0/4) from nfs server nfs:/user/.4
> 
> From looking at the source, it looks like an error while receiving RPC
> from the server... specifically, in /sys/nfs/nfs_socket.c

    It seems like a lost packet or a timeout could cause this.  In my
particular case, I found the cause of the NFS server problems, and
happily it isn't FreeBSD's fault.  :)  The nfsd's were restarted
manually at some point, and there was a 10-minute CPU limit in effect.
The nfsd's were silently dying off one by one, until there weren't
enough of them to adequately support the concurrency needed by the
clients, and eventually NFS would disappear entirely.  I only
discovered this when the fellow who went to reboot the hung systems
remarked that there were only a couple of nfsd's running at the time.  :-/
-- 
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca)
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 14:56:17 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:55:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Tao <taob@nbc.netcom.ca>
To: Charles Henrich <henrich@crh.cl.msu.edu>
cc: FREEBSD-HACKERS <freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG>
Subject: Re: vim vs. nvi?
In-Reply-To: <19970516203228.50252@crh.cl.msu.edu>
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On Fri, 16 May 1997, Charles Henrich wrote:
> 
> The only thing I ran into when switching was vim uses u to undelete,
> and ^R to redo, instead of the toggle as nvi operates.  (Once you
> get used to it, it makes more sense the way vim does it..)

    You could always do a ":set cp" to retain the undo/redo behaviour
of the 'u' key, but then you also lose the multi-undo capability.  Vim
also has more window-related commands than nvi (i.e., ^W^W to cycle
through windows in vim, vs. a single ^W in nvi).

> I guess the only real way is to have some people in core who are vi
> users to try it out and give it a spin and see what they think.  I
> myself am definatly sold.. If not for the syntax coloring alone..

    Thumbs up from me.  I can no longer function in standard vi or
nvi, and vim is one of the first things I install on every new FreeBSD
system I use (after tcsh, screen and ncftp2 ;-)).
-- 
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca)
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 15:09:53 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:09:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Tao <taob@nbc.netcom.ca>
To: Thomas David Rivers <ponds!rivers@dg-rtp.dg.com>
cc: FREEBSD-HACKERS <freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org>
Subject: Re: vim vs. nvi?
In-Reply-To: <199705171239.IAA04196@lakes.water.net>
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On Sat, 17 May 1997, Thomas David Rivers wrote:
> 
> When you move the cursor to the end-of-the-line (e.g. with '$'), and
> then press <space> it should beep.  In vim, it moves to the
> beginning of the next line.

    You can configure that behaviour with the "whichwrap" (ww)
setting.  It defaults to "b,s" (wrap on backspace and space).
Practically everything is configurable in vim.  :)
-- 
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca)
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 15:26:23 1997
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To: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: www.freebsd.org
References: <199705171830.TAA23763@awfulhak.demon.co.uk>
From: Wolfram Schneider <wosch@apfel.de>
Date: 18 May 1997 00:18:30 +0200
In-Reply-To: Brian Somers's message of Sat, 17 May 1997 19:30:56 +0100
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Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org> writes:
> I don't know who the current web-meister is, 

www@freebsd.org


> The intention is to have browsable -current set of man pages.

Did you tried http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/cgi/man.cgi
? The current manual pages are from the (latest) -SNAP, 
updated manually.

-- 
Wolfram Schneider    <wosch@apfel.de>    http://www.apfel.de/~wosch/

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 15:27:53 1997
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 18:27:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Tao <taob@nbc.netcom.ca>
To: "Brian N. Handy" <handy@sag.space.lockheed.com>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: newfs hangs my system?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.970512173551.12407A-100000@sag.space.lockheed.com>
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On Mon, 12 May 1997, Brian N. Handy wrote:
> 
> And I've figured out my problem.  I was doing
> 
> 	newfs [options] /dev/ccd0c
> 
> And I shoulda been doing
> 
> 	newfs [options] /dev/rccd0c

    I reported this problem in freebsd-stable (search the archives for
the subject "System freezes with 2.2-970420") on April 28, and a few
others have confirmed the problem.  Justin said he was going to
investigate with some drives he had, but I haven't heard anything else
about it recently.
-- 
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca)
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 16:49:20 1997
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Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 01:49:02 +0200 (SAT)
From: Khetan Gajjar <khetan@chain.iafrica.com>
Reply-To: Khetan Gajjar <khetan@iafrica.com>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: MZ-Telnet ?
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Hi.

I'm trying to get MZ-Telnet to work as a alternative to ssh (and sshd).
I got hold of SSL-MZtelnet-0.9.1.tar.gz., and have SSLeay-0.6.6 installed
from the ports.

Configure runs ok, but the make dies at :

gcc -c -g -O -I../../include -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -DLIBC_SCCS inet_addr.c
inet_addr.c:69: conflicting types for `inet_aton'
/usr/include/arpa/inet.h:50: previous declaration of `inet_aton'
*** Error code 1

Stop.
*** Error code 1

Stop.
40=[khetan@chain] ~/tmp/SSL-MZtelnet-0.9.1$

My limited knowledge of C tells me that the types are wrong. But, if
I look in arpa/inet.h, inet_aton is defined as a int, and so
is inet_aton in inet_addr.c

Anybody get this working ? I saw something in -questions about this
when I looked through the mail archives, from martin@uni-mainz.de to the
effect of :

"We have this problem everytime we try it on another plattform. Look
into lib/libbsd/inet_addr.c line 63. There is:

#if defined(linux) || defined(sgi) || defined(__NetBSD__) || defined(hpux)
int
#else
unsigned long
#endif
inet_aton(cp, addr)

add a preprocessor definition for FreeBSD and recompile (and send the
patch to me. It`ll be in the next version."

I'm afraid I don't know how to add a preprocessor definition for FreeBSD :-(
Any help appreciated!

--- 
Khetan Gajjar                               | khetan@os.org.za
www.freebsd.os.org.za/~khetan/              | khetan@iafrica.com
PGP : finger khetan@chain.freebsd.os.org.za | I run FreeBSD - www.za.freebsd.org
UUNet Internet Africa Support               | 0800-030-002 & help@iafrica.com

For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat,
and wrong.
                -- H. L. Mencken


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 17:06:08 1997
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To: dennis <dennis@etinc.com>
cc: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: Intel Pro 100/B "Warning" 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 May 1997 12:24:37 EDT."
             <3.0.32.19970515122430.00b1db90@etinc.com> 
From: David Greenman <dg@root.com>
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Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 17:07:41 -0700
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>Well, I got me some of them Intel Pro 100/B cards that everyone was 
>ranting about, and they seem to work fine. 
>
>I do get the following message when I configure it with ifconfig:
>
>Warning: Unsupported PHY type=7, addr=1
>
>What is this?

   It means it is a newer card that has a PHY I haven't added specific support
for yet. The card should work okay, except the -link flags won't work and
full duplex might not work.

-DG

David Greenman
Core-team/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 17:47:16 1997
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From: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
Message-Id: <199705180047.TAA01353@dyson.iquest.net>
Subject: Re: newfs hangs my system?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.95.970517182448.21528R-100000@tor-adm1.nbc.netcom.ca> from Brian Tao at "May 17, 97 06:27:42 pm"
To: taob@nbc.netcom.ca (Brian Tao)
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 19:47:04 -0500 (EST)
Cc: handy@sag.space.lockheed.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> On Mon, 12 May 1997, Brian N. Handy wrote:
> > 
> > And I've figured out my problem.  I was doing
> > 
> > 	newfs [options] /dev/ccd0c
> > 
> > And I shoulda been doing
> > 
> > 	newfs [options] /dev/rccd0c
> 
>     I reported this problem in freebsd-stable (search the archives for
> the subject "System freezes with 2.2-970420") on April 28, and a few
> others have confirmed the problem.  Justin said he was going to
> investigate with some drives he had, but I haven't heard anything else
> about it recently.
>
The hang associated with doing lots of I/O through a layer like
CCD is likely a deadlock indirectly associated with the vfs_bio
code.

John

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 18:41:04 1997
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To: Sren Schmidt <sos@sos.freebsd.dk>
cc: brian@awfulhak.org (Brian Somers), hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: bidirectional PPP possible ?? 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 17 May 1997 22:01:58 +0200."
             <199705172001.WAA23732@sos.freebsd.dk> 
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> In reply to Brian Somers who wrote:
> > > 
> > > I want to have my PPP connection to my ISP demand dialed both ways, 
> > > ie the one who has some packets to deliver opens the line.
> > > 
> > > I have it sortof running by using a ppp -auto as my demand dialer,
> > > and having a ppp hanging off a ppp aware getty on the same modem.
> > > 
> > > Any ideas ?? sombody have this working ??
> > 
> > How about a ppp.linkup that does a
> > 
> > my-in-label:
> >  ! sh -c "kill `cat /var/run/tun?.pid`"
                                    ^
                                    Oops.  That's bogus !
> >  delete ALL
> >  add 0 0 HISADDR
> > 
> > (or something) and a dialin .profile that says
> > 
> > ppp -direct my-in-label
> > exec ppp -auto my-out-label
> 
> Thats the problem, ppp will not accept a new default route on the
> tun interface right away, it "waits just a while" and exits
> and this all breaks....

So can't you do stick a sleep in ?  I don't think I follow.

> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Søren Schmidt               (sos@FreeBSD.org)               FreeBSD Core Team
>                 Even more code to hack -- will it ever end
> ..

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 18:50:49 1997
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To: Bill Fenner <fenner@parc.xerox.com>
cc: brian@awfulhak.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Re: www.freebsd.org 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 17 May 1997 12:28:03 PDT."
             <97May17.122808pdt.177489@crevenia.parc.xerox.com> 
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> You mean, like http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/cgi/man.cgi ?
> You can find it from http://www.freebsd.org/, select
> "Documentation" and then "Man pages".

I've seen this, but it's not what I'm looking for.  I need
something that's up-to-date - even a day out would be fine.

This stuff is "built" rather infrequently (ppp.8 v 1.30 from
April 21 still isn't there yet).

>   Bill

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 18:51:15 1997
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Subject: Re: www.freebsd.org 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 17 May 1997 19:30:56 BST."
             <199705171830.TAA23763@awfulhak.demon.co.uk> 
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From: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>
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> Hi,
> 
> I don't know who the current web-meister is, but would it be
> possible for you to do the following ?
> 
> The intention is to have browsable -current set of man pages.
> 
> In srm.conf:
> ----------
> AddType text/man 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1.gz 2.gz 3.gz 4.gz 5.gz 6.gz 7.gz 8.gz 9.gz
> Action text/man /cgi-bin/man2html
> ----------
> 
> man2html:
> ----------
> #! /bin/sh
> 
> if test -n "$PATH_TRANSLATED"; then
>     test ."${PATH_TRANSLATED%.gz}" = ."$PATH_TRANSLATED" &&
>         prog=/bin/cat || prog="/usr/bin/gunzip -c"
>     $prog $PATH_TRANSLATED |
>         /usr/bin/tbl |
>         /usr/bin/groff -Wall -mtty-char -Tascii -man |
>         /usr/bin/col |
>         sed 's/.^H//g'

Or:
          sed -e 's/.^H//g' -e 's/$/^M/'

(with real ^H & ^Ms may be better)

> else
>     echo "Internal server error.... oops !"
> fi
> ----------
> 
> All we need to do then is point at a -current /usr/share/man
> (cvs co'd regularly) somewhere under "Documentation", allowing
> "options Indexes".
> 
> Thanks for any responses.
-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....




From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 18:54:07 1997
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To: John Fieber <jfieber@indiana.edu>
cc: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: www.freebsd.org 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 17 May 1997 16:38:18 CDT."
             <Pine.BSF.3.96.970517163137.2207F-100000@fallout.campusview.indiana.edu> 
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> > The intention is to have browsable -current set of man pages.
> 
> Anything wrong with the -current man pages available on the
> www.freebsd.org/docs.html page?

Yep.  They're good, but not current.

> -john

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 18:55:19 1997
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To: Wolfram Schneider <wosch@apfel.de>
cc: Brian Somers <brian@awfulhak.org>, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: www.freebsd.org 
In-reply-to: Your message of "18 May 1997 00:18:30 +0200."
             <p1ik9kxoi89.fsf@campa.panke.de> 
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> > The intention is to have browsable -current set of man pages.
> 
> Did you tried http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/cgi/man.cgi
> ? The current manual pages are from the (latest) -SNAP, 
> updated manually.

Ahh, that's when they're updated.  Is it possible to update
it more frequently ?  Especially seen as Jordan's not keen
on releasing any SNAPs for a while.

> -- 
> Wolfram Schneider    <wosch@apfel.de>    http://www.apfel.de/~wosch/

-- 
Brian <brian@awfulhak.org>, <brian@freebsd.org>
      <http://www.awfulhak.org>
Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour....



From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 20:51:18 1997
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Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 05:51:33 +0200
From: Roger Espel Llima <espel@llaic.univ-bpclermont.fr>
To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: vim vs. nvi?
References: <199705172146.OAA14477@hub.freebsd.org>
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>  I like vim - except for one failing.
> 
>  When you move the cursor to the end-of-the-line (e.g. with '$'), and
> then press <space> it should beep.  In vim, it moves to the beginning
> of the next line.
> 
>  I frequently perform that operation to ensure there's nothing remaining
> on the line, as in checking that the backslash is the last character.
> I find the difference very annoying...

Yep, but you can fix that with a ``set whichwrap=0'' in your .vimrc.  

	Roger
--
e-mail: espel@llaic.univ-bpclermont.fr, espel@unix.bigots.org
WWW page & PGP key: http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/espel/index.html

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 21:03:12 1997
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From: John Birrell <jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au>
Message-Id: <199705181404.OAA00506@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au>
Subject: Re: GNAT-pthreads integration bugs/questions
In-Reply-To: <199705111316.IAA26518@iworks.InterWorks.org> from "Daniel M. Eischen" at "May 11, 97 08:16:41 am"
To: deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org (Daniel M. Eischen)
Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 14:04:46 +0000 (GMT)
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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[ Sorry for the delay... new contract at work and MX problems]


Daniel M. Eischen wrote:
> 
> I've implemented Ada tasking in GNAT over FreeBSDs pthreads library.  So
> far everything seems to work great.  Thanks to John Birrell for making
> this possible!

8-)

> 
> I did make some changes to the threads library and have a couple other
> questions.
> 
> Problems with pthreads (libc_r:/uthread):
> 
>   o pthreads.h doesn't reflect reality.  Where are pthread_setschedparam
>     and pthread_getschedparam?  I take it pthread_getprio and pthread_setprio
>     are to be used instead.  The same for pthread_attr_setschedparam and
>     pthread_attr_getschedparam, but why is there only pthread_attr_setprio
>     and no pthread_attr_getprio.

Ummm, no excuses...

> 
>   o Added pthread_attr_getprio (uthread/uthread_attr_getprio.c).
> 
>   o Added uthread_sigwait.c, uthread_attr_getprio.c, and
>     uthread_attr_setprio.c to Makefile.inc in libc_r/uthreads.
> 
> Questions about layering the GNAT tasking runtime over FreeBSD threads:
> 
>   o There is a mechanism in the GNAT runtime to reserve signals so that
>     they will never allowed to be masked by an application.  Like SIGVTALRM
>     because it is used by pthreads (setitimer/getitimer) for scheduling.
>     Pthreads doesn't seem to use SIGALRM, but I've reserved this signal also.

No it doesn't. You can use it if you want to.

>     Is it safe to allow SIGALRM to be masked?

Unless you try to do things with the _thread_sys_*() functions any masking
you try to do will just affect the user-interface, not the thread library.

>     I've reserved SIGCHLD,
>     SIGSTOP, SIGKILL, and SIGINT.

You can do that, but you don't need to.

> 
>   o The Ada language predefines the Constraint_Error and Storage_Error
>     exceptions.  A Constraint_Error is raised for things like referencing
>     null pointers, division by zero, going outside the bounds of an
>     array, overflow, etc.  A Storage_Error is typically raised when
>     an allocator requires more space than is available for a storage
>     pool.  The GNAT runtime provides a signal handler to exception
>     raising mechanism.  I've converted SIGFPE and SIGILL to Constraint_Error
>     and SIGSEGV and SIGBUS to Storage_Error.  Is there anything in
>     sigcontext that would help to determine which exception should
>     really be raised?

I hope someone else can answer that.

> 
> Dan Eischen
> deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org

Regards,

-- 
John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@netbsd.org; jb@freebsd.org
CIMlogic Pty Ltd, 119 Cecil Street, South Melbourne Vic 3205, Australia
Tel +61 3 9690 6900 Fax +61 3 9690 6650 Mob +61 418 353 137

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 21:14:45 1997
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From: Ulf Zimmermann <ulf@Alameda.net>
Message-Id: <199705180414.VAA14594@Gatekeeper.Lamb.net>
Subject: BayNetworks Netgear FA310TX
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:14:35 -0700 (PDT)
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Hello,

has anyone got a FA310TX to work ? The de driver gives me only time outs
and messages like "Abnormal interupt, receiving stopped".


Ulf.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ulf Zimmermann, 1525 Pacific Ave., Alameda, CA-94501, #: 510-769-2936
Alameda Networks, Inc. | http://www.Alameda.net  | Fax#: 510-521-5073

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 21:18:13 1997
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To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: CVSup 15.0 is now available
Date: Sat, 17 May 1997 21:18:05 -0700
From: John Polstra <jdp@polstra.com>
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                     Announcing CVSup 15.0
		     ---------------------
Release 15.0 of CVSup, the CVS-aware network distribution system, is now
available.

Where to Get CVSup
------------------
CVSup is free software.  It is available from the following FTP sites:

  ftp://hub.freebsd.org/pub/CVSup/             (California)
  ftp://ftp.cs.tu-berlin.de/pub/FreeBSD/CVSup/ (Germany)
  ftp://ftp.polstra.com/pub/FreeBSD/CVSup/     (slow; avoid if possible)

Full sources as well as FreeBSD binaries are available:

  cvsup-bin-15.0.tar.gz		FreeBSD static binaries for the client + GUI
  cvsup.nogui-bin-15.0.tar.gz	FreeBSD static binaries for the client (no GUI)
  cvsupd-bin-15.0.tar.gz	FreeBSD static binaries for the server
  cvsup-15.0.tar.gz		Sources **

MD5 signatures for these files are:

  MD5 (cvsup-bin-15.0.tar.gz) = 6456b1ec9d54c588ea02899a3292603c
  MD5 (cvsup.nogui-bin-15.0.tar.gz) = 89d2e399d812f1969da8ab3c810fab7b
  MD5 (cvsupd-bin-15.0.tar.gz) = 1578a568c762e1975676bf02a38c50cc
  MD5 (cvsup-15.0.tar.gz) = 3f9cb6e0267be19d8e0627c85e6edeb4

An updated port will appear in the FreeBSD ports and packages
collections soon:

Port:
  ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports-current/net/cvsup/

Package:
  ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/packages-current/net/cvsup-15.0.tgz
  ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/packages-2.2/net/cvsup-15.0.tgz

The FreeBSD package now depends only on the "modula-3-lib" package,
a subset of the Modula-3 installation consisting of only the shared
libraries.  Because of this, you can now install and use the "cvsup"
package in a reasonable amount of disk space.  The package is much
smaller than the statically linked binary distribution, so updates
to new versions of CVSup should be more convenient now.  The package
is the recommended distribution for binary-only users.  The static
binary distributions may be phased out soon.

If you want SOCKS support, you must also install the "modula-3-socks"
port or package:

Port:
  ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/ports-current/lang/modula-3-socks/

Package:
  ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/packages-current/lang/modula-3-socks-1.0.tgz
  ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/packages-2.2/lang/modula-3-socks-1.0.tgz

SOCKS is supported only under FreeBSD, and only with dynamically linked
executables.  The static binary distributions do not support SOCKS.

** If you wish to build CVSup from the sources, be sure to read the
discussion further on in this announcement.

Compatibility with Previous Releases
------------------------------------
This release is backward-compatible with release 14.0, except for a
couple of minor differences in the client:

* On the client, symbolic links are no longer followed inside a
  collection.  (If the prefix is a symbolic link, it is followed _to_
  the collection.)  This might affect some users who mirror the
  FreeBSD "gnats" collection.  This collection typically uses a prefix
  of "home", and all updated files are in the subtree "gnats".  It
  is important that "gnats" be a true subdirectory of the prefix,
  and not a symbolic link to a directory.  In other words, adjust
  your prefix if necessary, so that it designates the true parent
  directory of your "gnats" tree.  (In actuality, the client is more
  tolerant than this discussion implies.  It recognizes the problematic
  situations and does the right thing, emitting only a warning.)

* The default verbosity level when the GUI is not used has been
  changed from "-L 0" to "-L 1".

* The old "-d" and "-D" command line options no longer exist.  I
  doubt that anybody used them anyway.

* There is a new "-d delLimit" option with which you can specify a
  limit on the number of files the client will delete before it
  decides something is seriously wrong and quits.

  [Note that the reuse of "-d" shouldn't cause undetected problems,
  because the old version accepted no arguments while the new
  version requires a numeric argument.]

There are a couple of very minor compatibility issues which could affect
a few users upgrading from a release prior to 14.0.

Clients:  The default for the "base" directory has changed from "/usr"
to "/usr/local/etc/cvsup".  Practically everybody specifies the base
explicitly in their supfiles, so this change will have no impact for
most people.  If you have been using the default value, you will need to
add a line "*default base=/home" to your supfile, or specify "-b /home"
on the cvsup command line.

Servers:  The "hostbase" is no longer taken from the client's supfile.
It is now controlled on the server host.  On the FreeBSD project,
"hostbase=/home" was always used in the past.  People operating servers
will need to specify "-b /home" on the cvsupd command line to get the
same effect.  Alternatively, move your server configuration files from
"/home" to the new default location, "/usr/local/etc/cvsup".  (As
before, most of the configuration files appear under a subdirectory
named "sup".)

What Has Changed Since the Previous Release?
--------------------------------------------
Notable changes in release 15.0:

  Added the ability to update only selected files from a collection,
  by specifying file name patterns with a new "-i " command line
  option on the client.  The GUI also has a type-in field where
  patterns can be entered, separated by spaces.

  Added the ability to update all kinds of files, including symbolic
  links, hard links, and device nodes.

  Added support for mirroring directories exactly.  I.e., empty
  directories on the server are now preserved on the client.

  Added the ability to preseve all file attributes, including owner,
  group, modes, and flags.  This is under control of a new "preserve"
  keyword in the supfile.

  Changed the client's default verbosity level from "-L 0" to "-L 1".

  Added support for the "symlink" and "rsymlink" directives on the
  server, to control which symbolic links are followed and which
  are updated as links.

  Added support for specifying patterns and/or non-directory files
  in the server's "upgrade" and "always" directives.

  Added support for multiple patterns on the server's "upgrade",
  "always", and "omitany" directives, as well as on the new "symlink"
  and "rsymlink" directives.

  Enhanced server's "-c" option to accept a colon-separated list
  of directories for searching for collections, so that the
  collections no longer all need to be in the same place.

  Eliminated the client's "-d" and "-D" command line options.  They
  were never very useful, and I had other purposes in mind for those
  letters.  (See the next item.)

  Added a new "-d delLimit" option for specifying the maximum number
  of files that may be deleted by the client before it decides that
  something is seriously wrong.  The "-d" conflicts with older
  versions' uses of "-d".  But there should be little confusion,
  because the new version requires a numeric argument while the
  old one accepted no arguments.

  Significantly sped up the processing of the client's "checkouts"
  file.  This eliminates a long delay that had been observed between
  updating the last collection and shutting down.

  Added support for the non-standard RCS keyword "CVSHeader".  It
  expands the same as "Header", except that the pathname comes out
  as relative to the prefix rather than as absolute.  Assuming the
  prefix is the root of the CVS repository, this gives relative
  pathnames within the repository.

  Added support for defining aliases for existing RCS keywords, and
  for enabling and disabling the recognition of individual keywords.
  This is controlled on a repository-wide basis by directives in a
  file "<prefix>/CVSROOT/options" on the server.

  Added checking of file sizes in addition to modtimes during the
  initial culling phase.  This adds some network traffic, but it
  also adds a degree of safety.  It doesn't seem to slow things
  down much for typical updates.

  Added the "fnmatch" sources to the distribution, so that CVSup
  can be built on platforms that lack a full-featured version of
  it.

  The static binaries for FreeBSD now include a distribution of the
  client built without the GUI.  It is much smaller, and may be
  preferred by people who never use the GUI.

Notable changes in release 14.1.4 (a beta release):

  Added an inactivity timeout to the client, enabled only in non-GUI
  mode.  If 15 minutes pass without any network I/O, the update is
  terminated with a transient error (so that it will be retried).
  This is useful when the client is run from cron.

  Added a new "-r maxRetries" command line option for the client,
  to cause it to give up after the specified number of retries.
  This is a generalization of the old "-1" option, which is equivalent
  to "-r 0".

  Added checking to ensure that the client-side "checkouts*" file
  is sorted properly.  CVSup always keeps this file in sorted order.
  But if it gets corrupted such that it is no longer sorted, mass
  deletions can result.  This actually happened on a system that
  had faulty RAM.  A 1-bit error changed a "/" to something else.

  Added checksumming and fixups for all kinds of file updates.
  Formerly, this was done only for updates that modified (edited)
  existing files.  Now, even files that are sent verbatim are
  checked.

  Fixed a bug in searching for the revision in effect on a certain
  date.  Example:  Searching on the trunk.  The head is 2.2.  The
  selected revision is 1.7.  Because the first components were
  different, the code erroneously considered the file to be dead
  on the given date.  The fix treats the trunk as a special case.
  The bug affected just a few files, and only when checkout mode
  was used on the main branch with "date=yy.mm.dd.hh.mm.ss".

  Added support for the "execute" keyword, for executing server-specified
  commands on the client when certain files are updated.

  Added new client options "-e" and "-E", to enable and disable
  the "execute" feature.

  Fixed the server's logging so that it now works to specify "-l
  /dev/stdout" on the command line.

  Added the necessary "libmd" sources to the distribution, so it
  is no longer necessary to get them separately and install them.

  Changed the server so that it will let you run it as root again.

What Is CVSup?
--------------
CVSup is a software package for distributing and updating collections
of files across a network.  CVSup is specifically tailored to
distributing CVS repositories.  By taking advantage of the special
properties of the files contained in CVS repositories, CVSup is
able to perform updates much faster than traditional systems.  It is
especially valuable for people with slow Internet connections.

CVSup parses and understands the RCS files making up a CVS repository.
When updates occur, CVSup extracts new deltas directly from the RCS
files on the server and edits them into the client's RCS files.
Likewise, CVSup notes the addition of new symbolic tags to the files
on the server and sends only the new tags to the client.

CVSup is able to merge new deltas and tags from the server with deltas
and tags added locally on the client machine.  This makes it possible
for the client to check local modifications into his repository
without their being obliterated by subsequent updates from the server.
Note: Although this feature is fully implemented in CVSup, it will
probably not be practical to use it until some small changes have been
made to CVS.

In addition to distributing the RCS files themselves, CVSup is able to
distribute specific checked-out versions.  The client can specify a
symbolic tag, a date, or both and CVSup will extract the appropriate
versions from the server's CVS repository.  Checked-out versions do
not need to be stored on the server since CVSup can extract any
version directly from the CVS repository.

If the client has an existing checked-out tree, CVSup will apply the
appropriate edits to update the tree or transform it into the
requested version.  Only the differences between the existing version
and the desired version are sent across the network.

To update non-RCS files, CVSup uses the highly efficient rsync
algorithm, developed by Andrew Tridgell and Paul Mackerras.

CVSup uses lightweight processes (threads) to implement a streaming
protocol across the network.  This completely eliminates the delays
associated with the lock-step, request-reply form of communication
used by many existing protocols, such as sup and NNTP.  Information
is transferred at the full available speed of the network in both
directions at once.  Network latency and server response delays
are rendered practically irrelevant.

CVSup uses the "zlib" compression package to optionally compress all
communications.  This provides an additional 65-75% compression, on
top of the diff-based compression already built into CVSup.

For efficiency, all processing is built into the CVSup package
itself.  Neither the client nor the server executes any other
programs.

For further information about how CVSup works, see the "Blurb" document
in the CVSup distribution.

Using CVSup to Maintain FreeBSD Sources
---------------------------------------
CVSup servers are currently running at the following FreeBSD mirror
sites:

  USA:
    cvsup.freebsd.org
    cvsup2.freebsd.org

  Argentina:
    cvsup.ar.freebsd.org

  Australia:
    cvsup.au.freebsd.org

  Germany:
    cvsup.de.freebsd.org

  Japan:
    cvsup.jp.freebsd.org

  Netherlands:
    cvsup.nl.freebsd.org

  Norway:
    cvsup.no.freebsd.org

  South Africa:
    cvsup.za.freebsd.org

  Taiwan:
    sup.tw.freebsd.org

Using CVSup, you can easily receive or update any of the standard
FreeBSD source releases, namely, "cvs", "current", and "stable".
The manual page for cvsup(1) describes how to do that.  For more detailed
instructions, see the section on CVSup in the FreeBSD Handbook:

  http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/cvsup.html

Building CVSup from the Sources
-------------------------------
CVSup is written in Modula-3, a modern, compiled, object-oriented
language.  Modula-3 integrates threads, exceptions, and garbage
collection, providing an ideal vehicle for this sort of application.
Without Modula-3, CVSup would almost certainly not exist today.

If you wish to build CVSup from the sources, you will first need
to install the free Modula-3 compiler and runtime libraries from
DEC SRC.  A port is available in the FreeBSD ports collection, in
"lang/modula-3".  The corresponding package is, of course, available
in the packages collection.

You will also need version 1.0.4 or later of the "zlib" library.
In FreeBSD-2.1.6 and later releases, this library has been incorporated
into the system sources, in "src/lib/libz".  Prior to that, a
FreeBSD port was available in "devel/libz" of the FreeBSD ports
collection.  For other sources of this library, see the "Install"
file.  Do not try to use versions earlier than 1.0.4.

Portability Issues
------------------
I intend for CVSup to be portable to most POSIX systems.  The
previous release has been run on a number of different platforms,
including FreeBSD, Linux, and DEC OSF/1 ALPHA.

The current release has only been tested under FreeBSD versions
2.1 and later; however, I attempted not to introduce any new
portability problems.

Anybody who succeeds in porting CVSup to other systems is encouraged
to send his changes to <cvsup-bugs@polstra.com>.  As long as the
changes are reasonably palatable, they will be incorporated into
future CVSup releases.

CVSup uses several POSIX-specific functions which may make it more
of an effort to port the package to non-POSIX systems such as Win32.
These functions include mmap, fork, syslog, stat, and chmod, among
others.

Status of this Release
----------------------
CVSup has seen heavy use and has been quite stable for months.
Like all software, though, it is not perfect.  Please be prepared
to find bugs -- without a doubt, there are some.  Please report
bugs to <cvsup-bugs@polstra.com>.
--
   John Polstra                                       jdp@polstra.com
   John D. Polstra & Co., Inc.                Seattle, Washington USA
   "Self-knowledge is always bad news."                 -- John Barth

From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 21:31:02 1997
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Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 00:30:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Brian Tao <taob@nbc.netcom.ca>
To: "John S. Dyson" <toor@dyson.iquest.net>
cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject: Re: newfs hangs my system?
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On Sat, 17 May 1997, John S. Dyson wrote:
>
> The hang associated with doing lots of I/O through a layer like CCD
> is likely a deadlock indirectly associated with the vfs_bio code.

    Since mount points are done on the block device as well, wouldn't
doing dd's to such a filesystem exercise the bug as well?  What's
special about newfs, as far as the driver is concerned?
-- 
Brian Tao (BT300, taob@netcom.ca)
"Though this be madness, yet there is method in't"


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 23:47:39 1997
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Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 13:48:02 +0700 (JVT)
From: Arman Hazairin <arman@tsar.Telkomsel.co.id>
To: hackers@freebsd.org
Subject: Adaptec 2940
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This is about 2.2.1-RELEASE.
Is there any patch available for Adaptec 2940.
Where is that ?


thanks a lot

-arman-


From owner-freebsd-hackers  Sat May 17 23:59:10 1997
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Date: Sun, 18 May 1997 02:00:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Daniel M. Eischen" <deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org>
To: jb@freebsd1.cimlogic.com.au
Subject: Re: GNAT-pthreads integration bugs/questions
Cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
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> >   o There is a mechanism in the GNAT runtime to reserve signals so that
> >     they will never allowed to be masked by an application.  Like SIGVTALRM
> >     because it is used by pthreads (setitimer/getitimer) for scheduling.
> >     Pthreads doesn't seem to use SIGALRM, but I've reserved this signal also.
> 
> No it doesn't. You can use it if you want to.
>
> >     Is it safe to allow SIGALRM to be masked?
>
> Unless you try to do things with the _thread_sys_*() functions any masking
> you try to do will just affect the user-interface, not the thread library.
>
> >     I've reserved SIGCHLD,
> >     SIGSTOP, SIGKILL, and SIGINT.
>
> You can do that, but you don't need to.

OK, thanks.  It works as is, but I'll try it without reserving these
signals.

Is there any interest in making pthreads with rfork?  Or someway to get
a real process from a thread?  I thought about implementing Ada tasking
using rfork, but it really wants to use pthreads.  A couple things I
can't do with rfork (or don't know how to do using other mechanisms)
is to explicitly set the stack size (as in pthread_attr_setstacksize),
mutexes and condition variables (could use SYSV semaphores I suppose),
and the ability to create a key (pthread_key_create) that is specific
to each process - like taskVarAdd() in VxWorks :-)

Dan Eischen
deischen@iworks.InterWorks.org