From owner-freebsd-hubs Mon Aug 25 09:49:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA22015 for hubs-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dawnrazor.campus.luth.se (root@dawnrazor.campus.luth.se [130.240.42.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA22010 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 09:49:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (offe@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dawnrazor.campus.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA23917; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:49:43 +0200 (CEST) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 18:49:42 +0200 (CEST) From: Olof Johansson To: freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org, hostmaster@fi.freebsd.org Subject: ftp.se.freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Hello, Ftp.se.freebsd.org, aka ftp.luth.se, hasn't had a working freebsd mirror in ages. Until they get it fixed (it will hopefully be done in a not too distant future) I'm redirecting ftp.se.freebsd.org to ftp.fi.freebsd.org. If anyone has any objections, please let me know. -Olof, hostmaster@se.freebsd.org From owner-freebsd-hubs Mon Aug 25 21:35:36 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA06234 for hubs-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (austin.polstra.com [206.213.73.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA06222 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:35:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from austin.polstra.com (jdp@localhost) by austin.polstra.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA03057; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199708260435.VAA03057@austin.polstra.com> To: kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE Subject: Re: cvsup prefix - In-Reply-To: <199708230924.LAA18832@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> References: <199708230924.LAA18832@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Organization: Polstra & Co., Seattle, WA Cc: hubs@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 21:35:20 -0700 From: John Polstra Sender: owner-freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk In article <199708230924.LAA18832@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de>, Christoph Kukulies wrote: > I'm getting something like > > "src is a symlink but should be a directory, check your prefix" > > from my cvsup client. > > The cvsup ran anyway . I changed the prefix accordingly > but why this warning? If you are using checkout mode (tag=something or date=something), then the warning is a bug. It will be gone in the next release. If you are using CVS mode (no "tag" or "date" in your supfile), then the warning is valid. In that mode, CVSup intends to preserve all attributes possible for each file. If it has a directory but you have a symlink, it complains. The "Announce" file for CVSup 15.1 discusses the topic in a little bit more detail, in the section "Compatibility with Previous Releases". John -- John Polstra jdp@polstra.com John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth From owner-freebsd-hubs Mon Aug 25 22:09:06 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA08187 for hubs-outgoing; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE [137.226.116.240]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA08182 for ; Mon, 25 Aug 1997 22:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (gilberto.physik.rwth-aachen.de [137.226.31.2]) by Campino.Informatik.RWTH-Aachen.DE (RBI-Z-5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id HAA27637; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:10:17 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from kuku@localhost) by gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.5/8.6.9) id HAA00943; Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:14:21 +0200 (MEST) Message-ID: <19970826071420.26674@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 07:14:20 +0200 From: Christoph Kukulies To: John Polstra Cc: kuku@gilberto.physik.RWTH-Aachen.DE, hubs@freebsd.org Subject: Re: cvsup prefix - References: <199708230924.LAA18832@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de> <199708260435.VAA03057@austin.polstra.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81e In-Reply-To: <199708260435.VAA03057@austin.polstra.com>; from John Polstra on Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 09:35:20PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-hubs@freebsd.org X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Mon, Aug 25, 1997 at 09:35:20PM -0700, John Polstra wrote: > In article <199708230924.LAA18832@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de>, > Christoph Kukulies wrote: > > > I'm getting something like > > > > "src is a symlink but should be a directory, check your prefix" > > > > from my cvsup client. > > > > The cvsup ran anyway . I changed the prefix accordingly > > but why this warning? > > If you are using checkout mode (tag=something or date=something), > then the warning is a bug. It will be gone in the next release. I was using: src-all release=cvs host=freefall.freebsd.org base=/usr hostbase=/home prefix=/usr delete old use-rel-suffix tag=. ports-all release=cvs host=freefall.freebsd.org base=/usr hostbase=/home prefix=/usr delete old use-rel-suffix tag=. > > If you are using CVS mode (no "tag" or "date" in your supfile), then > the warning is valid. In that mode, CVSup intends to preserve all > attributes possible for each file. If it has a directory but you > have a symlink, it complains. > > The "Announce" file for CVSup 15.1 discusses the topic in a little > bit more detail, in the section "Compatibility with Previous > Releases". > > John > -- > John Polstra jdp@polstra.com > John D. Polstra & Co., Inc. Seattle, Washington USA > "Self-knowledge is always bad news." -- John Barth -- Chris Christoph P. U. Kukulies kuku@gil.physik.rwth-aachen.de From owner-freebsd-hubs Wed Aug 27 00:34:29 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA16759 for hubs-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tokyonet-entrance.astec.co.jp (tokyonet-entrance.astec.co.jp [202.239.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA16600; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:31:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amont.astec.co.jp (amont.astec.co.jp [172.20.10.1]) by tokyonet-entrance.astec.co.jp (8.6.12+2.5Wb7/3.4Wbeta5-astecMX2.3) with ESMTP id QAA29767; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:30:57 +0900 Received: from lepton (lepton.astec.co.jp [172.20.12.27]) by amont.astec.co.jp (8.7.6/3.6Wbeta5-astecMX2.4) with ESMTP id QAA05487; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:30:57 +0900 (JST) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: hubs@FreeBSD.ORG, www@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Local translations of www.freebsd.org From: Hiroyuki HANAI In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:15:24 -0700" References: <21795.867251724@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.70 on Emacs 19.34.1 / Mule 2.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19970827163127N.hanai@astec.co.jp> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:31:27 +0900 X-Dispatcher: impost version 0.99h (Apr. 2, 1997) Lines: 26 Sender: owner-freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On 25 Jun 1997 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > John Fieber would probably be the best one to answer that since > he'd know the build issues involved - John? OK, we are finishing the Japanese tranlation of www.FreeBSD.org pages. We want answers to some questions. 1. Will they be provided on www.FreeBSD.org? 2. If so, where is the "root" page? 3. Will they be put into the CVS repository on freefall? We now are working with the assumption of answers to above, that: 1. Yes. 2. http://www.FreeBSD.org/ja_JP.EUC/ 3. Yes. Could you give me any idea? Cheers, Hiroyuki Hanai From owner-freebsd-hubs Wed Aug 27 00:44:56 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA17269 for hubs-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA17091; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 00:41:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA00515; Sun, 27 Aug 2000 00:41:35 -0700 (PDT) To: Hiroyuki HANAI cc: hubs@FreeBSD.ORG, www@FreeBSD.ORG, www@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Local translations of www.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:31:27 +0900." <19970827163127N.hanai@astec.co.jp> Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 00:41:35 -0700 Message-ID: <511.967362095@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > OK, we are finishing the Japanese tranlation of www.FreeBSD.org pages. > We want answers to some questions. > > 1. Will they be provided on www.FreeBSD.org? www.jp.FreeBSD.org is the correct place for this given that they have the localized infrastructure and the expertise in presenting that kind of content. Where FreeBSD.org itself can help best, I think, is in providing the developers with a centralized repository to share changes - this is essentially already the case for the Japanese handbook and FAQ, and I'm hoping that it will happen someday for the Czech pages currently at www.cz.freebsd.org. > 3. Will they be put into the CVS repository on freefall? This question leaves me wondering as to whether or not a parallel effort has perhaps just taken place. Are you connected with the existing translation project, or is this something entirely different? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hubs Wed Aug 27 01:17:04 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA18882 for hubs-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:17:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tokyonet-entrance.astec.co.jp (tokyonet-entrance.astec.co.jp [202.239.16.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA18734; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:13:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amont.astec.co.jp (amont.astec.co.jp [172.20.10.1]) by tokyonet-entrance.astec.co.jp (8.6.12+2.5Wb7/3.4Wbeta5-astecMX2.3) with ESMTP id RAA01249; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:13:39 +0900 Received: from lepton (lepton.astec.co.jp [172.20.12.27]) by amont.astec.co.jp (8.7.6/3.6Wbeta5-astecMX2.4) with ESMTP id RAA06717; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:13:38 +0900 (JST) To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: hubs@FreeBSD.ORG, www@FreeBSD.ORG, www@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Local translations of www.freebsd.org From: Hiroyuki HANAI In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 27 Aug 2000 00:41:35 -0700" References: <511.967362095@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.70 on Emacs 19.34.1 / Mule 2.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19970827171408U.hanai@astec.co.jp> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:14:08 +0900 X-Dispatcher: impost version 0.99h (Apr. 2, 1997) Lines: 27 Sender: owner-freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk Jordan wrote: > > 1. Will they be provided on www.FreeBSD.org? > > www.jp.FreeBSD.org is the correct place for this given that they have > the localized infrastructure and the expertise in presenting that kind > of content. Where FreeBSD.org itself can help best, I think, is in I see. Let me confirm. Do you mean that we should provide Web pages of Japanese translation of www.FreeBSD.org on www.jp.FreeBSD.org? > > 3. Will they be put into the CVS repository on freefall? > > This question leaves me wondering as to whether or not a parallel > effort has perhaps just taken place. Are you connected with the > existing translation project, or is this something entirely different? I am a member of Japanese Documentation Project and am connected with the the existing translation works such as Handbook, FAQ. Also, I am one of webmasters on www.jp.FreeBSD.org. In addition, I have a commit privilege on freefall and I am maintaining the Japanese translation of Handbook. So, I can maintain the Japanese translation of Web pages if they were put into the CVS repository on freefall. Regards, Hiroyuki Hanai From owner-freebsd-hubs Wed Aug 27 01:41:22 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id BAA20135 for hubs-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:41:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA19986; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:38:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA01859; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:37:58 -0700 (PDT) To: Hiroyuki HANAI cc: hubs@FreeBSD.ORG, www@FreeBSD.ORG, www@jp.freebsd.org Subject: Re: Local translations of www.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 Aug 1997 17:14:08 +0900." <19970827171408U.hanai@astec.co.jp> Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 01:37:58 -0700 Message-ID: <1855.872671078@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > I see. > Let me confirm. > Do you mean that we should provide Web pages of Japanese translation > of www.FreeBSD.org on www.jp.FreeBSD.org? Exactly. See www.cz.freebsd.org as an example of something it would be nice to see more of. > I am a member of Japanese Documentation Project and am connected with > the the existing translation works such as Handbook, FAQ. > Also, I am one of webmasters on www.jp.FreeBSD.org. OK, thanks, I was just trying to make sure I wasn't dealing with a divergent effort or something. :) > In addition, I have a commit privilege on freefall and I am maintaining > the Japanese translation of Handbook. So, I can maintain the Japanese > translation of Web pages if they were put into the CVS repository on freefall Great! I thing questions still remain, however, as to how the make rules will work so that you can do: cvs co -P www cd www/data make all install LANG=ja_JP.EUC in order to build the top page for www.jp.freebsd.org and it was this I was actually looking to John Fieber for comment on. Regards, Jordan From owner-freebsd-hubs Wed Aug 27 10:20:47 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA16466 for hubs-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA16066; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA22983; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:14:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:14:31 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: Hiroyuki HANAI cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, hubs@FreeBSD.ORG, www@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Local translations of www.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19970827163127N.hanai@astec.co.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Hiroyuki HANAI wrote: > OK, we are finishing the Japanese tranlation of www.FreeBSD.org pages. > We want answers to some questions. > > 1. Will they be provided on www.FreeBSD.org? > > 2. If so, where is the "root" page? > > 3. Will they be put into the CVS repository on freefall? > > We now are working with the assumption of answers to above, that: > > 1. Yes. > > 2. http://www.FreeBSD.org/ja_JP.EUC/ > > 3. Yes. > > Could you give me any idea? That was the assumption I had. There are two localization issues here. First is translations of the english stuff. These should basically be replicas of the english pages, but stored in language subdirectories like ja_JP.EUC. All such native language pages will always be built and carried by all mirrors. We have gobs of mirror sites around the world and if a few drop off because of extra space demands in mirroring multiple languages, then so be it. An German speaker in Japan should be able to get German from www.ja.freebsd.org and a Japanese speaker in Germany should should be able to get Japanese from www.de.freebsd.org. Second is additional native language pages which, for the moment, I rather not deal with in the repository. Currently a number of mirrors have their additional pages as the root of the mirror, with a link to the mirrored pages. An alterative would be to standardize on www.xx.freebsd.org/local/ for local pages. Www.freebsd.org would ship out a "This server has no local pages" page in that directory and mirrors that have extra pages could just redirect that URL to their locally maintained pages. Thoughts? -john From owner-freebsd-hubs Wed Aug 27 13:05:13 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02684 for hubs-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA02662; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA10887; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:04:07 -0700 (PDT) To: John Fieber cc: Hiroyuki HANAI , hubs@FreeBSD.ORG, www@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Local translations of www.freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 27 Aug 1997 12:14:31 CDT." Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:04:06 -0700 Message-ID: <10883.872712246@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk > ja_JP.EUC. All such native language pages will always be built > and carried by all mirrors. We have gobs of mirror sites around > the world and if a few drop off because of extra space demands in > mirroring multiple languages, then so be it. An German speaker > in Japan should be able to get German from www.ja.freebsd.org and > a Japanese speaker in Germany should should be able to get > Japanese from www.de.freebsd.org. Erm... While I can certainly see advantages to this model, I have question whether or not it's truly realistic. As a whole, our existing collection of mirrors is still chasing to catch up with the new english language content and layout of www.freebsd.org and, in well over 2 years, we've yet to succeed in achieving true syncronization with even a majority percentage of them. I don't think that we should complicate a mechanism we've yet to truly standardize on, and I'd furthermore consider it a major victory if we could get even single web servers to display properly localized versions of the pages built from CVS supplied sources. It's also not like the expat German and Japanese speakers would be completely without recourse in the less ambitious model - connectivity between www.jp.freebsd.org and www.de.freebsd.org is getting better all the time. :) > Second is additional native language pages which, for the moment, > I rather not deal with in the repository. Currently a number of > mirrors have their additional pages as the root of the mirror, > with a link to the mirrored pages. An alterative would be to But if this content were easier to syncronize and build via the CVS repository and our default "build me a set of web pages" toolchain, don't you think that a lot of the regional mirrors would elect to keep their top pages directly under CVS, local tweaks and all? Jordan From owner-freebsd-hubs Wed Aug 27 13:44:57 1997 Return-Path: Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA05089 for hubs-outgoing; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (fallout.campusview.indiana.edu [149.159.1.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA04792; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:38:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (jfieber@localhost) by fallout.campusview.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA23627; Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:37:03 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:37:02 -0500 (EST) From: John Fieber To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Hiroyuki HANAI , hubs@FreeBSD.ORG, www@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Local translations of www.freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <10883.872712246@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-hubs@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk On Wed, 27 Aug 1997, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > ja_JP.EUC. All such native language pages will always be built > > and carried by all mirrors. We have gobs of mirror sites around > > the world and if a few drop off because of extra space demands in > > mirroring multiple languages, then so be it. An German speaker > > in Japan should be able to get German from www.ja.freebsd.org and > > a Japanese speaker in Germany should should be able to get > > Japanese from www.de.freebsd.org. > > Erm... While I can certainly see advantages to this model, I have > question whether or not it's truly realistic. As a whole, our > existing collection of mirrors is still chasing to catch up with the > new english language content and layout of www.freebsd.org and, in > well over 2 years, we've yet to succeed in achieving true > syncronization with even a majority percentage of them. I don't follow. The addition of another language is no different than, say, fixing a typo. If they mirror the pages on a regular basis, they get the update. If they don't mirror on a regular basis they don't. The addition of Japanese, or any other language, is simply a matter of more bytes, not any procedural change. > But if this content were easier to syncronize and build via the CVS > repository and our default "build me a set of web pages" toolchain, > don't you think that a lot of the regional mirrors would elect to keep > their top pages directly under CVS, local tweaks and all? Accessing the cvs repository on freefall is often a pain; 50% packet loss is typical, and I'm only coming from Indiana. As far as streamlining the tools, Paul Richards gave me a prototype a (long) while back that I still have not looked at very carefully, and my window of opportunity is closing fast---classes start on Monday. I'm just tackling smaller scale projects at the moment. The mailing list archives are now updated weekly for example. If it were not for the grunt work Nate Johnson has been putting in lately, the web site would be rusting by now! :) I may have have to start tagging the rest of the web-related positions listed in the handbook as "vacant", in this case policing mirrors to make sure they are all subscribed to the www mailing list, are updating on a reasonable schedule and so on. -john