From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 15 13:46:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09124 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:46:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09021; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:46:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199804152046.NAA09021@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: asdf To: advocacy Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 13:46:23 -0700 (PDT) Cc: asdf X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG test advocacy -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Core Team, Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--The Power to Serve http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 15 18:16:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20905 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:16:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sword.lightspeed.bc.ca (root@sword.lightspeed.bc.ca [206.12.82.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20886 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zbuday@lightspeed.bc.ca) Received: from light33.lightspeed.bc.ca (light33.lightspeed.bc.ca [206.12.82.33]) by sword.lightspeed.bc.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA12480 for ; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804160103.SAA12480@sword.lightspeed.bc.ca> X-Sender: zbuday@lightspeed.bc.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Wed, 15 Apr 1998 18:03:47 -0700 To: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: zbuday@lightspeed.bc.ca (Gölök ZLF Buday (aka Court Jester)) Subject: Subscribe Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id SAA20890 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gölök Zolt'an Leenderdt Franco Buday Court(Crt)Jester Vancouver, BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ICQ: 9834094. The Official Crt Jester WebSite: http://www.dragonfire.net/~GolokZLFBuday/ Other: http://www.virtualisys.com/vr/gbuday/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Best Web Page Browser: www.operasoftware.com Bill Gate's nightmare: www.be.com (BeOS) Get ICQ @: http://www.mirabilis.com/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 15 22:13:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08179 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:13:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08160; Wed, 15 Apr 1998 22:13:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA05389; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:43:31 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980416144331.V1090@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:43:31 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Dan Janowski , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Side by side... Reply-To: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199804151405.KAA04007@fnur.3skel.com> <19980415104147.51745@urh.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980415104147.51745@urh.uiuc.edu>; from dannyman on Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 10:41:47AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG (following up to -advocacy) On Wed, 15 April 1998 at 10:41:47 -0500, dannyman wrote: > On Wed, Apr 15, 1998 at 10:05:03AM -0400, Dan Janowski wrote: > >> Whilest poking around for Java resources, I found this article which >> seems pretty articulate as well as referring to Linux and FreeBSD on par. >> >> http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncw-04-1998/ncw-04-nextten.html?jw > > Errr, yeah, an article full of generalizations unsupported by citation that > mentions FreeBSD and Linux in the same sentence then goes on to list a > bunch of links for Linux at the bottom. > > I get the creepy feeling that it's some sort of underhanded Linux advocacy, > but I don't mind so much given the target. ;) Who messed with your anti-paranoia shot? Seriously, I don't think this message is biased towards Linux. That's the way the Real World sees us, and I don't think it puts us down. I suppose we could point out that FreeBSD has LKMs and is used by some of the world's largest name servers. On the other hand, it does seem a little biased against NT, but it produces some good reasoning. I'd be inclined to ask NC World if they plan to leave the page online, in which case we should link to it. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 03:54:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA06443 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:54:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA06437 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 03:54:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from niels@dbitgroep.xs4all.nl) Received: from dbnt.dbitgroep.xs4all.nl (dbitgroep.xs4all.nl [194.109.83.34]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14441 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 12:53:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by DBNT with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <2AAMPPC5>; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:40:29 +0200 Message-ID: <21A0017DA77FD111B9F2004F4900FC83C46A@DBNT> From: niels To: "'FreeBSD-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:39:35 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 09:38:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12001 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:38:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA11947 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:37:52 GMT (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id JAA28522; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:37:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma028520; Thu, 16 Apr 98 09:37:52 -0700 Message-ID: <35363396.CF5289F3@partsnow.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 09:36:38 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rse@engelschall.com Subject: SPECweb96 challenge Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ralf -- > Novell Web Server Pushes Envelope > > Novell, Inc. reached a SPECweb96 benchmark of 1639 running > intraNetWare 4.11 on a single processor Compaq ProLiant 3000. I saw this in Internet Alert, an e-mail newsletter. Since we know FreeBSD excells as a webserver under load, this is our opportunity to set up to shoot some crows out of the sky. I don't personally like ProLiant servers, but let's see if we can approximate their hardware and tune our software -- out of the box, no source-code tweaks -- to dominate this SPEC. Have you looked at it? 1) Obtain SPECweb96 test guidelines 2) Obtain equivalent test platform hardware 3) Configure FreeBSD for max serving performance 4) Configure Apache for max serving performance 5) Run test 6) Promote results heavily!!!!! My best hardware is a PPro180 with 64MB, so I don't have a new enough machine, but I think this is exactly the kind of thing we FreeBSD advocates need to do to promote FreeBSD -- and get the IW's and NWW's and Byte's to acknowledge us. If we've got TBDOSITW, let's _prove_ it. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 10:35:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24344 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:35:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24253 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:35:11 GMT (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id KAA29938 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:35:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma029924; Thu, 16 Apr 98 10:35:03 -0700 Message-ID: <353640FE.29DFF4AA@partsnow.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:33:50 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: how about a hard count? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Let's see if we can get an approximate count of FreeBSD machines out there in the world. I'm going to make up a short 'survey form', and I think if we sift the 'questions' list for addresses we ought to be able to get a first-level approximation of people who are using or have installed FreeBSD. Part of the survey will be for those who are queried to pass it along. Alternatively, we can add a few lines to the online registration form to account for multiple machines at one site. The e-mail, then, can be just a notification that we're asking for registration updates. Then, a running counter on the home page would be a good hook! No more bogus statistics, let's find out! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 10:46:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA26049 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 10:46:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA25928 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:45:16 GMT (envelope-from remy@synx.com) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA05495; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:49:59 +0100 Received: from rs1 by s3.synx.com id aa02602; 16 Apr 98 19:34 BST Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:34:24 -0100 (GMT) From: Remy NONNENMACHER To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: how about a hard count? In-Reply-To: <353640FE.29DFF4AA@partsnow.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > Let's see if we can get an approximate count of FreeBSD machines out there in > the world. I'm going to make up a short 'survey form', and I think if we sift > the 'questions' list for addresses we ought to be able to get a first-level > approximation of people who are using or have installed FreeBSD. Part of the > survey will be for those who are queried to pass it along. Alternatively, we can > add a few lines to the online registration form to account for multiple machines > at one site. The e-mail, then, can be just a notification that we're asking for > registration updates. Then, a running counter on the home page would be a good > hook! > And count users !!. Too many statistics take boxes into account but one FreeBSD serving 10 users is 10 time one W$ thing serving 1 user. > No more bogus statistics, let's find out! Let's the world learn it is ruled by Unix!! > -- > oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * > o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ > V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] > /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo >  > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 11:04:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28540 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ringworld.uniscape.com ([206.116.157.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA28437 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:03:57 GMT (envelope-from stefanos@ringworld.uniscape.com) Received: from traveler by ringworld.uniscape.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0M) id AA01490; Thu, 16 Apr 98 14:14:02 -0400 Message-Id: <9804161814.AA01490@ringworld.uniscape.com> Received: by traveler.uniscape.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA01029; Thu, 16 Apr 98 14:13:56 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Stefanos Kiakas Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 14:13:54 -0400 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Promoting FreeBSD. Reply-To: stefanos@ringworld.uniscape.com Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, Here are some of my ideas about promoting FreeBSD. 1) Create an online magazine dedicated to FreeBSD. This magazine will a) Feature articles on how FreeBSD is being used in commercial organizations. b) Provide a how to section to help beginners and more advanced users get the most out of FreeBSD. c) Cover topics of interest to the FreeBSD community. Although I can't take on such a project by myself, my company can provide the hosting and Web site maintenance for such a magazine. I can also write a few articles as well, but my time is limited. 2) Over the last year we have had opportunities to promote FreeBSD to our clients, but many of them are scared due to the lack of a GUI to administer users and the system. We should consider creating GUI tools to manipulate the underlying text files and allow people to configure the systems using these tools. It can be as simple as a Web interface or an executable running on the system. Ideally I would like to get some tools similar to those found on NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP. Comments anyone? stef --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stefanos Kiakas stefanos@uniscape.com www.e-scape.net www.uniscape.com e-Scape Information Systems Inc. 514.878.1084 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 11:52:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08100 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:52:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cs.uoregon.edu (vitalstatistix.cs.uoregon.edu [128.223.202.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07936 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:52:15 GMT (envelope-from wcarey@cs.uoregon.edu) Received: from basix.cs.uoregon.edu (wcarey@basix.cs.uoregon.edu [128.223.4.94]) by cs.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA24986; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:51:47 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 11:51:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Woody Carey To: Stefanos Kiakas cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. In-Reply-To: <9804161814.AA01490@ringworld.uniscape.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Stefanos Kiakas wrote: > Hello, > > Here are some of my ideas about promoting FreeBSD. [snip] > > 2) Over the last year we have had opportunities to promote FreeBSD to > our clients, but many of them are scared due to the lack of a GUI to > administer users and the system. We should consider creating GUI tools to > manipulate the underlying text files and allow people to configure the systems > using these tools. > > It can be as simple as a Web interface or an executable running on > the system. Ideally I would like to get some tools similar to those found on > NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP. > > Comments anyone? > stef Re 2 above, there are significant benefits and dangers to this approach. The main benefit is that the FreeBSD user community attracts more users. (greater raw headcount). There are two dangers that come to my mind: a) Users come to believe that FreeBSD is 'easy' to use, but then become dissatisfied when they need to use their understanding of the system, and the command line, to fix a problem. b) Some users become severely limited in their ability to administer a system that their business and perhaps their livelihood have come to depend on, their abilities being strictly defined by what is and is not in the web interface sysadmin tool. In addition, this gui tool would have to be Very robust and work basically perfectly, for it to be of any use to people who wanted to use FreeBSD, but did not want to learn the system or the command line. gui sysadmin tools are a nice thing, for sure, though, for newbies and more experience users alike. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 13:04:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28976 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:02:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA28651 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:00:51 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-137.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.137]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA59830; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:00:35 GMT Message-ID: <35366347.DDDC518B@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:00:07 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Remy NONNENMACHER CC: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: how about a hard count? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I will add that to the form, that's a good idea. However, since payware is sold on a per-processor basis (God, what an obsolete concept!), we primarily need to count CPU's. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 13:16:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15760 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:16:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15549 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:16:01 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-137.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.137]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA42340; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:15:11 GMT Message-ID: <353666B4.4EB212B9@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:14:44 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Woody Carey CC: Stefanos Kiakas , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Woody Carey wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Stefanos Kiakas wrote: > gui sysadmin tools are a nice thing, for sure, though, for newbies and > more experience users alike. > I think a better first pass is to give users a ready-to-run out-of-the-box configuration with X-Windows set up for 640x480, and Mozilla, and Apache. Eivind Eklund gave me some hints towards doing this as a setup option during the install. GUI administration cuts to the heart of what BSD is all about, which is that everything is a text file, and any command can pipe to any other. It's better to provide a tutorial to Tcl/Tk/expect and show them how they can roll their own admin tools. If we try to be micros**t-like we will inevitably be compared to them, and they've got more cheap programmers and more PR money (!). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 13:38:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24908 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:38:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ringworld.uniscape.com ([206.116.157.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA24815 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:37:57 GMT (envelope-from stefanos@ringworld.uniscape.com) Received: from traveler by ringworld.uniscape.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0M) id AA02354; Thu, 16 Apr 98 16:47:56 -0400 Message-Id: <9804162047.AA02354@ringworld.uniscape.com> Received: by traveler.uniscape.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA01136; Thu, 16 Apr 98 16:47:51 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=NeXT-Mail-1540786018-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In-Reply-To: <353666B4.4EB212B9@ibm.net> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Stefanos Kiakas Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 16:47:49 -0400 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. Reply-To: stefanos@ringworld.uniscape.com References: <353666B4.4EB212B9@ibm.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --NeXT-Mail-1540786018-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don Wilde wrote: > If we try to be micros**t-like we will inevitably be compared to them, > and they've got more cheap programmers and more PR money (!). We are no trying become micros**t-like if we make FreeBSD easier to use. We = want to allow more people to use FreeBSD so they do not depend on computer = experts to do day to day tasks. stef --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stefanos Kiakas stefanos@uniscape.com http://www.uniscape.com/ e-Scape Information Systems Inc. 514.878.1084 --NeXT-Mail-1540786018-1 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don Wilde wrote: > If we try to be micros**t-like we will inevitably be compared to them, > and they've got more cheap programmers and more PR money (!). We are no trying become micros**t-like if we make FreeBSD easier to use. We = want to allow more people to use FreeBSD so they do not depend on computer = experts to do day to day tasks. stef --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stefanos Kiakas stefanos@uniscape.com http://www.uniscape.com/ e-Scape Information Systems Inc. 514.878.1084 --NeXT-Mail-1540786018-1-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 13:53:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28871 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 13:53:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ringworld.uniscape.com ([206.116.157.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA28723 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:52:03 GMT (envelope-from stefanos@ringworld.uniscape.com) Received: from traveler by ringworld.uniscape.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0M) id AA02400; Thu, 16 Apr 98 17:02:11 -0400 Message-Id: <9804162102.AA02400@ringworld.uniscape.com> Received: by traveler.uniscape.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA01152; Thu, 16 Apr 98 17:02:06 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Stefanos Kiakas Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 17:02:04 -0400 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. Reply-To: stefanos@ringworld.uniscape.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id UAA28726 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Woody Carey wrote: > On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Stefanos Kiakas wrote: > The point of developing these tools is to allow people who are not familiar to FreeBSD and UNIX feel comfortable in doing day to day task, so they don't have to call for support. Once the box is setup there are many task which can be performed which will not affect the stability of the FreeBSD machine, like adding and deleting users. Such a tool will not prevent them from learning how to use UNIX and FreeBSD in general. It will make it easier because they will not feel intimidated. > b) Some users become severely limited in their ability to administer a > system that their business and perhaps their livelihood have come to > depend on, their abilities being strictly defined by what is and is > not in the web interface sysadmin tool. There are many companies which depend on tools and equipment for their livelihood, yet they are not experts at fixing these tools if they break. They call a professional or the manufacturer ro correct the problem if anything goes wrong. These GUI tools should allow clients to do day to day tasks without calling a professional. We all depend on automobiles to earn our livelihood, but there are very few people who can repair their automobile without taking it to a garage. I'm proposing we do the same for FreeBSD. We add a GUI layer on top of the text files used to configure the system. I don't want to replace the current text configuration file structure. > > In addition, this gui tool would have to be Very robust and work > basically perfectly, for it to be of any use to people who wanted to > use FreeBSD, but did not want to learn the system or the command line. Yes they have to be robust, but they should also be very focused on doing one task (i.e. managing users, managing NFS, etc). We could also have a help feature which would explain how to do the same thing, by editing the configuration files with a text editor. stef --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stefanos Kiakas stefanos@uniscape.com http://www.uniscape.com/ e-Scape Information Systems Inc. 514.878.1084 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 14:29:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10493 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:29:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pop1.gmx.net (qmailr@pop1.gmx.net [194.97.64.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA09436 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:26:33 GMT (envelope-from sirabyss@gmx.net) Message-Id: <199804162126.VAA09436@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 11094 invoked from network); 16 Apr 1998 21:26:15 -0000 Received: from port-081.herrenberg.netsurf.de (HELO danielh) (194.163.121.81) by pop1.gmx.net with SMTP; 16 Apr 1998 21:26:15 -0000 X-Sender: danielh@mail.herrenberg.netsurf.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:27:11 +0200 To: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Daniel Haischt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe FreeBSD-FreeBSD-advocacy@freebsd.org ====================================================== Dedicated to DIABLO I & the upcoming DIABLO II? Visit: http://www.abyssworld.org for more infos... ====================================================== contacts: phone: +49 7032-992910                  (yea thats Germany and costs u                  a lot if u call from outside)            Mail: sirabyss@gmx.net                  cyberodin@abyssworld.org             ICQ: 7311831            DING: whodp://ding.activerse.com/LordAbyss To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 14:53:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17992 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:53:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17958 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:53:50 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-184.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.184]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA32642; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:52:28 GMT Message-ID: <35367D7D.9AE4092A@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 14:51:57 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stefanos@ringworld.uniscape.com CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. References: <9804162102.AA02400@ringworld.uniscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stefanos Kiakas wrote: > > Woody Carey wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Stefanos Kiakas wrote: > > > > The point of developing these tools is to allow people who are not familiar to FreeBSD and UNIX feel comfortable in doing day to day task, so they don't have to call for support. Once the box is setup there are many task which can be performed which will not affect the stability of the FreeBSD machine, like adding and deleting users. Valid point. I still think, however, that the most good is done by teaching _you_ how to write particular scripts/GUI tools for a client. Adding and deleting users is an example of a tool that is relatively constant from system to system, but beyond that, things start to break down because there are so many different ways FreeBSD can be used. If the tool is general enough to work, it becomes cumbersome and worse than learning the text files. I can see that a GUI tool might also be set up to configure itself based on what's installed (and _where_), but we're talking a lot of built-in test scripting. Of course, then there's the argument that for servers it's silly to run X in the first place. > > We add a GUI layer on top of the text files used to configure the system. I don't want to replace the current text configuration file structure. Rewrite / duplicate adduser in Tk, and write a similar one for removing. I'm sure the team would be happy to add such to the CDROM. I would find uses for them myself, I'm sure. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 17:32:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27201 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:32:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dns.mail.ida.net (mail.ida.net [204.228.203.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA27190 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 00:32:55 GMT (envelope-from muck@ida.net) Received: from falcon.hinterlands.com (pm-pt2-5.ida.net [198.60.251.214]) by dns.mail.ida.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00485 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:25:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3536A33C.167EB0E7@ida.net> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:33:00 -0600 From: Mike X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. References: <9804162102.AA02400@ringworld.uniscape.com> <35367D7D.9AE4092A@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Of course, then there's the argument that for servers it's silly to run > X in the first place. Agreed. It sounds like people want a "FreeBSD for Idiots." The problem with doing everything with X and a nice gui is it eats up memory and cpu cycles. You can already use sysinstall to add users and a few networking options can be changed as well. A program can be run from the command line and still be easy to use, like the port apsfilter. If someone is too dumb to type "adduser" and then follow a few simple instructions, maybe they shouldn't be calling themselves a sysamdin in the first place. But, of course, I'm not speaking from the perspective of trying to convince a company to use FreeBSD. I think FreeBSD is already easy to use. I find SCO Openserver with all it's GUI tools a bit complex, not to mention SLOW on my 486. FreeBSD performs quite well, however. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 17:48:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29513 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:48:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29506 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 00:48:44 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrD-35.aei.ca [206.186.204.185]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA28090; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:48:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3536A6EB.1736CEEF@aei.ca> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:48:43 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dwilde1@ibm.net CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: how about a hard count? References: <353640FE.29DFF4AA@partsnow.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Can we know how many CD of FreeBSD Walnut Creek sells and all that stuff? You can do a registration in HTML format on FreeBSD.ORG... Can we actually evaluate how many people use it? cya Malartre Don Wilde wrote: > Let's see if we can get an approximate count of FreeBSD machines out there in > the world. I'm going to make up a short 'survey form', and I think if we sift > the 'questions' list for addresses we ought to be able to get a first-level > approximation of people who are using or have installed FreeBSD. Part of the > survey will be for those who are queried to pass it along. Alternatively, we can > add a few lines to the online registration form to account for multiple machines > at one site. The e-mail, then, can be just a notification that we're asking for > registration updates. Then, a running counter on the home page would be a good > hook! > > No more bogus statistics, let's find out! > -- > oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * > o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ > V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] > /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 18:14:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06454 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA06436 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:14:24 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrD-35.aei.ca [206.186.204.185]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA02186 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:14:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3536ACEC.9B561231@aei.ca> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:14:20 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux=win95 FreeBSD=winNT ??? ;-) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It was funny to me, on another mailling list of FreeBSD.ORG, I have seen a msg who was saying than Linux do competition to win95 FreeBSD do competition to winNT So, why you dont do more attraction to win95 users? To survive, FreeBSD should not be only for server-systems. It should be for all people. So you should consult new users and understand why they dont understand your product. I've seen in the past a lot of people who buy the Walnut Creek cd-rom but who never understand how to install it! I think than you should all go on the win95 way with kde-like desktop setted up. And it should be a good thing to write a prog who will simply show(and run on win95) to win95 user how to get started with FreeBSD. I explain: It will show in *real time* a lot of exemple on how to log, how to admin the system. You know, when someone go on FreeBSD.ORG for the first time, he ask himself "what the hell is that" (sorry if its not the right translation from french!) All win95 user ask for a screenshot... Why not doing an introduction in visual basic or something like that... I think the centralisation of FreeBSD is good, it give a certain advantage on linux in some way. But that centralisation should be used *more* Creating FreeBSD User Group and doing demonstration of FreeBSD is another good way to do marketing. With who you think you will survive? server or user? I think *both* cya ;-) sorry for my bad english! Malartre -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 18:22:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07828 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:22:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07807 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:22:22 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-179.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.179]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA69184; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:22:17 GMT Message-ID: <3536AEB4.BBFA88A@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:21:56 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Malartre CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: how about a hard count? References: <353640FE.29DFF4AA@partsnow.com> <3536A6EB.1736CEEF@aei.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Can we know how many CD of FreeBSD Walnut Creek sells and all that stuff? Jordan & co. will have to help us there. > You can do a registration in HTML format on FreeBSD.ORG... Yes, I know. It doesn't capture much info at all, to be honest. We need to update it to give us more on how many, what purpose, and what kind of person is doing the registration. I, for example, have a webserver, a mail/fw gateway, a multi-user mail server and a personal workstation at Soligen, and I'm adding a big Samba fileserver. I have a personal workstation and another test system at home. That's the kind of data I would like to capture. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 18:29:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09221 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:29:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dns.mail.ida.net (mail.ida.net [204.228.203.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08992 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:27:55 GMT (envelope-from muck@ida.net) Received: from falcon.hinterlands.com (tc-if1-16.ida.net [208.141.171.25]) by dns.mail.ida.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA10886 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:21:05 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3536B048.41C67EA6@ida.net> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:28:40 -0600 From: Mike X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux=win95 FreeBSD=winNT ??? ;-) References: <3536ACEC.9B561231@aei.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Malartre wrote: > > It was funny to me, on another mailling list of FreeBSD.ORG, I have seen > a msg who was saying than > Linux do competition to win95 > FreeBSD do competition to winNT > > So, why you dont do more attraction to win95 users? > > To survive, FreeBSD should not be only for server-systems. It should be > for all people. Just curious, but why do you think that FreeBSD is suddenly going to die? I haven't used FreeBSD since it's beginning in 1993, so I don't know how much it's use has grown each year, but I hardly think FreeBSD is going to die. Who's going to kill it? Microsoft? Microsoft's long term strategy is to move everybody to WinNT 5.0. WinNT 5.0 is 30 million lines of bloat. It's recommended that you have a minimum of 64 megs of RAM to run it. How about Linux? Seems to me I hear more and more about Linux users converting to FreeBSD. Sure, Linux will probably always have a larger userbase that FreeBSD, but what is FreeBSD about? World Domination or a really great OS? If FreeBSD was a commercial product, then yes, it would probably die. But since the majority of people who develop for FreeBSD do it because they are passionate about it and it interests them, I think it will not only survive, but also thrive. Just playing Devil's Advocate. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 18:35:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10565 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10531 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:35:43 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrD-35.aei.ca [206.186.204.185]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05511; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:35:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3536B1E1.9B81874@aei.ca> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:35:29 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike CC: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux=win95 FreeBSD=winNT ??? ;-) References: <3536ACEC.9B561231@aei.ca> <3536B048.41C67EA6@ida.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike wrote: > Malartre wrote: > > > > It was funny to me, on another mailling list of FreeBSD.ORG, I have seen > > a msg who was saying than > > Linux do competition to win95 > > FreeBSD do competition to winNT > > > > So, why you dont do more attraction to win95 users? > > > > To survive, FreeBSD should not be only for server-systems. It should be > > for all people. > > Just curious, but why do you think that FreeBSD is suddenly going to > die? I haven't used FreeBSD since it's beginning in 1993, so I don't > know how much it's use has grown each year, but I hardly think FreeBSD > is going to die. > > Who's going to kill it? Microsoft? Microsoft's long term strategy is > to move everybody to WinNT 5.0. WinNT 5.0 is 30 million lines of > bloat. It's recommended that you have a minimum of 64 megs of RAM to > run it. > > How about Linux? Seems to me I hear more and more about Linux users > converting to FreeBSD. Sure, Linux will probably always have a larger > userbase that FreeBSD, but what is FreeBSD about? World Domination or a > really great OS? > > If FreeBSD was a commercial product, then yes, it would probably die. > But since the majority of people who develop for FreeBSD do it because > they are passionate about it and it interests them, I think it will not > only survive, but also thrive. > > Just playing Devil's Advocate. > > Mike > I agree with you, it will not die, but in a long term strategie, you try to have the more user possible, no?I rectify: Microsoft is taking the Unix market. And in a long term strategie, win95 will die and Win NT *lite* will be the more used OS. So, I think than hiring user from the win95 can be a great deal, no? *If* it was more easy to admin. L'avocat du Diable ;-) cya :-) Malartre -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 18:45:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13523 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:45:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA13469 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:45:15 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-179.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.179]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA23630; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:45:10 GMT Message-ID: <3536B411.222CB371@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:44:49 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike CC: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. References: <9804162102.AA02400@ringworld.uniscape.com> <35367D7D.9AE4092A@ibm.net> <3536A33C.167EB0E7@ida.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike wrote: > > > Of course, then there's the argument that for servers it's silly to run > > X in the first place. > > Agreed. It sounds like people want a "FreeBSD for Idiots." The problem > with doing everything with X and a nice gui is it eats up memory and cpu > cycles. You can already use sysinstall to add users and a few > networking options can be changed as well. Y! I floated the idea of making a newbie install package that would set up a personal PC kind of thing for the first-time user to play with, that he could then configure and perfect to his heart's content. Most importantly, it would _run_right_out_of_the_box. It would do so by making minimal assumptions about what Joe PC has installed, i.e. a plain vanilla VGA card and just one hard disk. The main thing is that it would drop the config files in, for example for Apache and Mozilla, based on the info supplied to sysinstall. Nothing is more daunting than to power your brand new system and get obtuse error messages saying it's missing a file. > > A program can be run from the command line and still be easy to use, > like the port apsfilter. If someone is too dumb to type "adduser" and > then follow a few simple instructions, maybe they shouldn't be calling > themselves a sysamdin in the first place. > Agreed. But then, we _do_ need a corresponding script that says rmuser. Holes like thta need to be filled in. Our poster wasn't saying these were sysadmins he was trying to get to use it, my feeling is that they are Joe Business who he wants to set up to run a turnkey box without having to pay him every week. I think that is a sound area we need to address, but I would prefer we do it by making the command-line tools more orthogonal and better in some cases. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 18:50:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14699 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:50:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA14677 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:50:10 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA21004; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:20:02 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980417112002.J1090@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:20:02 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: dwilde1@ibm.net Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. References: <353666B4.4EB212B9@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <353666B4.4EB212B9@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Thu, Apr 16, 1998 at 01:14:44PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 16 April 1998 at 13:14:44 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > Woody Carey wrote: >> >> On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Stefanos Kiakas wrote: > >> gui sysadmin tools are a nice thing, for sure, though, for newbies and >> more experience users alike. > > I think a better first pass is to give users a ready-to-run > out-of-the-box configuration with X-Windows set up for 640x480, and > Mozilla, and Apache. Eivind Eklund gave me some hints towards doing this > as a setup option during the install. GUI administration cuts to the > heart of what BSD is all about, which is that everything is a text file, > and any command can pipe to any other. It's better to provide a tutorial > to Tcl/Tk/expect and show them how they can roll their own admin tools. > If we try to be micros**t-like we will inevitably be compared to them, > and they've got more cheap programmers and more PR money (!). One of the many things in my to-do list is a port which installs a basic GUI (probably pretty much the one described in "The Complete FreeBSD", second edition. If anybody has any suggestions, please let me know. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 18:50:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14822 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 18:50:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smgmail.smgmail.com ([204.170.177.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA14809 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:50:43 GMT (envelope-from AdamT@smginc.com) Received: from smginc.com (204.170.177.4 [204.170.177.4]) by smgmail.smgmail.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id 28QHTJJ1; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 21:46:11 -0400 Received: by smginc.com with Microsoft Mail id <3536D688@smginc.com>; Thu, 16 Apr 98 21:11:52 PDT From: Adam Turoff To: Mike , "FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Linux=win95 FreeBSD=winNT ??? ;-) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 21:49:00 PDT Message-ID: <3536D688@smginc.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike writes: > Malartre wrote: >> >> It was funny to me, on another mailling list of FreeBSD.ORG, I have seen >> a msg who was saying than >> Linux do competition to win95 >> FreeBSD do competition to winNT >> >> So, why you dont do more attraction to win95 users? >> >> To survive, FreeBSD should not be only for server-systems. It should be >> for all people. It _is_ for all people. The distinction between "desktop" and "server" systems is often a question of if someone is sitting at the console or not. I'm sitting next to a P83 "server" system that works fine for multiple telnet sessions, apache and samba (can't say that for a P83 NT box). If X11 works on FreeBSD and it doesn't crash more often than it would on a Solaris "desktop" or Linux "desktop" then FreeBSD is as much of a "desktop" as the others. What definition of "desktop" and "server" are you using? Why must "desktop" systems be more buggy than "server" systems? > [...] > Who's going to kill it? Microsoft? Microsoft's long term strategy is > to move everybody to WinNT 5.0. WinNT 5.0 is 30 million lines of > bloat. It's recommended that you have a minimum of 64 megs of RAM to > run it. ...and figure out LDAP to do user administration, fight with IE 4, etc. > How about Linux? Seems to me I hear more and more about Linux users > converting to FreeBSD. Sure, Linux will probably always have a larger > userbase that FreeBSD, but what is FreeBSD about? World Domination or a > really great OS? I find that FreeBSD attracts a more sophisticated kind of user. First off, they found out about the project and figured that it was not some graduate research project like Java. Secondly, either they seem to like a certain aspect of the project. Either the performance, the reliability, the lineage or some such. I often describe FreeBSD to Linux types as a "Bazaar inside the Cathedral" development model. Not everybody commits to FreeBSD (gaining entry into the cathedral) but those who do participate in a bazaar-style development project. This seems similar to Apache, where a core group pushes the project forward, but not all submissions make it into the core of Apache. Compare that to Linux, where there is one individual or a similarly small group making sure that the architecture is sound and exports well-known interfaces, but relies on others to implement those interfaces, possibly in a buggy manner. Thus, the Linux movement moves forward but only gets bug fixes when the bugs are sufficiently annoying to someone capable of fixing them, while Apache and FreeBSD move forward keeping stability, reliability and performance primary goals. Just some positive spin on the issue. :-) -- Adam. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 19:05:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16793 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 19:05:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smgmail.smgmail.com ([204.170.177.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA16757 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:04:55 GMT (envelope-from AdamT@smginc.com) Received: from smginc.com (204.170.177.4 [204.170.177.4]) by smgmail.smgmail.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id 28QHTJJM; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:00:18 -0400 Received: by smginc.com with Microsoft Mail id <3536D9D7@smginc.com>; Thu, 16 Apr 98 21:25:59 PDT From: Adam Turoff To: "stefanos@ringworld.uniscape.com" , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: Promoting FreeBSD. Date: Thu, 16 Apr 98 22:03:00 PDT Message-ID: <3536D9D7@smginc.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Here are some of my ideas about promoting FreeBSD. > > 1) Create an online magazine dedicated to FreeBSD. This magazine will > a) Feature articles on how FreeBSD is being used in commercial > organizations. > b) Provide a how to section to help beginners and more advanced > users get the most out of FreeBSD. > c) Cover topics of interest to the FreeBSD community. > > Although I can't take on such a project by myself, my company can > provide the hosting and Web site maintenance for such a magazine. I can also > write a few articles as well, but my time is limited. > > [yet another GUI admin thread] Can we please stop the GUI Admin threads? They come up every few weeks like clockwork. What the FreeBSD community really needs, IMNSHO, is www.freebsdweek.com or even www.bsdweek.com. I'm fighting the same battle many of us are fighting to use open source software such as apache, samba, freebsd and perl. Having a publication as fine as www.apacheweek.com has been of immense value to evangelists and reporters. OTOH, apache still needs a GUI admin tool but it's the running on over half of all internet websites. You be the judge of which is more useful in advocating FreeBSD. As for the X-admin discussion, maybe it's time to unite all of the people doing their one- and two- developer projects, share some code and ideas. Perhaps another website? A weekly e-zine? There's a lot of discussion going on with GUI-admin tools for apache, linux and FreeBSD, and probably OpenBSD and NetBSD as well. There's no reason re-implementing the same security holes and bugs over and over again, folks. -- Adam. (Sorry, I had a bad day fixing other people's code...) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 20:39:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04624 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 20:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA04611 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 03:39:34 GMT (envelope-from mark@vnode.vmunix.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20939; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:44:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mark) Message-ID: <19980416234453.42186@vmunix.com> Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 23:44:53 -0400 From: Mark Mayo To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD in Academia document Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi all. Don't know how many people are on this list yet, but here goes anyhow.. If you have some time, I'd appreciate some feedback regarding: http://www.vmunix.com/advocacy/academia.html A short article I'm writing on how to get FreeBSD into academic environments. TIA, -Mark -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The problem is how do you build tools that understand your programs at a deeper semantic level." - James Gosling To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 16 22:29:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23421 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:29:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ha1.rdc1.sfba.home.com (siteadm@ha1.rdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.0.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA23378 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 05:29:41 GMT (envelope-from ludwigp@bigfoot.com) Received: from speedy.pcscons.net ([24.1.82.47]) by ha1.rdc1.sfba.home.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA16430 for ; Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:29:23 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980416222920.03169270@mail.plstn1.sfba.home.com> X-Sender: ludwigp@mail.plstn1.sfba.home.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Apr 1998 22:29:20 -0700 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Ludwig Pummer Subject: FreeBSD mention on cnet for home networking Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.cnet.com/Content/Features/Howto/HomeLAN/ss01.html Clap Clap Clap *Cheers* "Finally, if you're fairly technical and want the most reliable and powerful operating system available, consider one of the free versions of Unix, such as FreeBSD or Linux. These sophisticated operating systems are to computer software what Shakespeare is to literature: rich, deep, and potent, but sometimes hard to fathom. Unix can coexist with Windows or DOS, so you can alternate between Unix and another operating system on the same machine. And, like Windows NT, Unix lets you set up separate accounts for family members." --Ludwig Pummer ludwigp@bigfoot.com ludwigp@chipweb.ml.org ICQ UIN: 692441 http://chipweb.home.ml.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 00:16:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA23690 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 00:16:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.cybertron.at (root@mail.cybertron.at [195.26.192.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA23545 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:16:09 GMT (envelope-from k.joch@kmjeuro.com) Received: from sv04.kmjeuro.com (SV04.kmjeuro.com [195.26.216.165] (may be forged)) by mail.cybertron.at (8.8.8/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA03815 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:13:58 +0200 Received: from wsjk01.kmjeuro.com (wsjk01.kmjeuro.com [192.168.0.30]) by sv04.kmjeuro.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA05645 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:13:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from k.joch@kmjeuro.com) Received: by wsjk01.kmjeuro.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BD69D9.0C63F8E0@wsjk01.kmjeuro.com>; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:15:57 +0100 Message-ID: <01BD69D9.0C63F8E0@wsjk01.kmjeuro.com> From: "Karl M. Joch" To: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: salesman is thinking..... Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:15:56 +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think the main difference is in the 3 different views (sure more are to find) on a product: 1. PROGRAMMERS AND ADMINS: they want a stable system with a lot of features to make their daily job easier. they are able to compile programs and doing programming. 2. THE DEALERS: they need to make money with selling Hardware. They want an Operating system, they can easily setup with not to much headache coming up when the system is at the customer. 3. THE USER: sometimes we all forget the user. but in fact we all have our systems running because of the users!. they want a workstation/pc where they can switch on and click to start word processing, spreadsheet and their commercial package. (most of them don?t do more). users are normally not interested in programming and daily operating work. but to increase the installed base of freebsd i think it is necceary to get more USERS to have it. this means that a quick setup version of something called "business workstation" must be available for them. easy to setup and no maintanance in daily work. more users are only possible if the dealers will sell their computers with this package. FreeBSD has a lot of advantages for dealers witch NT or Win9x doesn?t have: - no licencing troubles - lot of free applications available - AND THE REAL INTERESTING THING FOR THEM: they can sell their products cheaper! if more dealers will give out computers with FreeBSD, more users will use it and then also more programmers/admins are required. so all fits together . in detail a lot more things would be required like: multilanguage support, different applications and support. ..... only thoughts of a marketing/salesman. Karl M. Joch k.joch@kmjeuro.com (Austria) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 01:38:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07654 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 01:38:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA07644 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:37:53 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA27770; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:07:50 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980417180749.T1090@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:07:49 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bay/6986/yahoobsd.htm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I can't recall anybody pointing to this review before. It certainly looks good to me. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 02:35:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA16060 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:35:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gwdu60.gwdg.de (gwdu60.gwdg.de [134.76.10.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA16028 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:35:14 GMT (envelope-from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de) Received: from localhost (kheuer@localhost) by gwdu60.gwdg.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA21024; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:34:52 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:34:51 +0200 (CEST) From: Konrad Heuer To: Stefanos Kiakas cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. In-Reply-To: <9804161814.AA01490@ringworld.uniscape.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, Stefanos Kiakas wrote: > 1) Create an online magazine dedicated to FreeBSD. This magazine will > a) Feature articles on how FreeBSD is being used in commercial > organizations. > b) Provide a how to section to help beginners and more advanced > users get the most out of FreeBSD. > c) Cover topics of interest to the FreeBSD community. I think that's a good idea. Although my time is also limited I'd try to contribute. > 2) Over the last year we have had opportunities to promote FreeBSD to > our clients, but many of them are scared due to the lack of a GUI to > administer users and the system. We should consider creating GUI tools to > manipulate the underlying text files and allow people to configure the systems > using these tools. Other replies show that the discussion is controverse. To my mind `sysinstall' has the power to become a system administration tool for beginners. Advanced system managers don't need it of course; and the power of a UNIX system compared to NT is actually command line or even batch configuration. On the other hand fellows of mine giving courses about NT administration tell me that today people without much experience want to be or have to be system administrators. To make another point: I am a system administrator in a large computer center and I favorite FreeBSD in the area I'm responsible for (printer and plotter service). Some weeks ago I held a recitation about Linux and FreeBSD and their special advantages and disadvantages (as far as I know them). The outcome for me was: a) People that are interested in UNIX today (may be, only in Germany?) don't know about the large contributions to the system made by the CSRG in Berkeley. Berkeley UNIX doesn't meen much to them. Is there a chance or the necessity (I'm not sure) to pronounce more the quality of the system? b) For many institutions I think - and definitely for us as a computer center open to the internet community - system security is very very important. I believe that FreeBSD is not worse here but if the FreeBSD community could state that FreeBSD is an operating system with high security (knocking out Linux, NT and so on) the number of our FreeBSD boxes would dramatically increase. Once again I'm not sure: How important is system security for the core team? Konrad Heuer // Gesellschaft fuer wissenschaftliche Datenverarbeitung mbH // Goettingen (GWDG), Am Fassberg, D-37077 Goettingen, Germany // // kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 02:54:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18792 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 02:54:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA18776 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:54:23 GMT (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.12]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27393 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:48:31 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12686; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:48:30 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980417114830.A12634@caramba.cs.tu-berlin.de> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:48:30 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: http://www.freebsd.org/press.html Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I setup a page for articles about FreeBSD. http://www.freebsd.org/press.html -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 03:39:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA25019 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 03:39:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from slarti.muc.de (slarti.muc.de [193.174.4.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA25007 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:39:10 GMT (envelope-from rse@en1.engelschall.com) Received: (qmail 10857 invoked by uid 66); 17 Apr 1998 10:36:36 -0000 Received: by en1.engelschall.com (Sendmail 8.8.8) id MAA09499; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:38:01 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980417123801.A9264@engelschall.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:38:01 +0200 From: "Ralf S. Engelschall" To: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPECweb96 challenge Reply-To: rse@engelschall.com References: <35363396.CF5289F3@partsnow.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <35363396.CF5289F3@partsnow.com>; from Don Wilde on Thu, Apr 16, 1998 at 09:36:38AM -0700 Organization: Engelschall, Germany. X-Home: http://www.engelschall.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Apr 16, 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > > Novell Web Server Pushes Envelope > > > > Novell, Inc. reached a SPECweb96 benchmark of 1639 running > > intraNetWare 4.11 on a single processor Compaq ProLiant 3000. > > I saw this in Internet Alert, an e-mail newsletter. Since we know FreeBSD > excells as a webserver under load, this is our opportunity to set up to shoot > some crows out of the sky. I don't personally like ProLiant servers, but let's > see if we can approximate their hardware and tune our software -- out of the > box, no source-code tweaks -- to dominate this SPEC. Have you looked at it? > > 1) Obtain SPECweb96 test guidelines > 2) Obtain equivalent test platform hardware > 3) Configure FreeBSD for max serving performance > 4) Configure Apache for max serving performance > 5) Run test > 6) Promote results heavily!!!!! > > My best hardware is a PPro180 with 64MB, so I don't have a new enough machine, > but I think this is exactly the kind of thing we FreeBSD advocates need to do to > promote FreeBSD -- and get the IW's and NWW's and Byte's to acknowledge us. If > we've got TBDOSITW, let's _prove_ it. There is only one point you missed: the SPECweb96 benchmark costs $800 :-( Ralf S. Engelschall rse@engelschall.com www.engelschall.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 04:37:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA06748 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:37:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA06730 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:36:47 GMT (envelope-from remy@synx.com) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA13833; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:41:30 +0100 Received: from rs1 by s3.synx.com id aa07892; 17 Apr 98 13:26 BST Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:25:54 -0100 (GMT) From: Remy NONNENMACHER To: "Karl M. Joch" cc: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... In-Reply-To: <01BD69D9.0C63F8E0@wsjk01.kmjeuro.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Karl M. Joch wrote: > I think the main difference is in the 3 different views (sure more are to > find) on a product: > > 1. PROGRAMMERS AND ADMINS: they want a stable system with a lot of features > to make their daily job easier. they are able to compile programs and doing > programming. > I would separate programmers and admins: programmers: - Can operate on CLI without troubles admins: - Want consistant packages (and pkg_xx is not so bad) - Needs an application database with coherent documentation (i want to do 'that', 'that' is done by package 'xxthat') - Needs everyday tools for survey > 3. THE USER: sometimes we all forget the user. but in fact we all have our > systems running because of the users!. they want a workstation/pc where > they can switch on and click to start word processing, spreadsheet and > their commercial package. (most of them don?t do more). users are normally > not interested in programming and daily operating work. > User point is *THE* problem. From my personnal experience, i found pretty easy to have customers buy FreeBSD (apart the name is a problem) as shoebox that will be used for service (replacement to NT as workgroup server or network node) than having them replacing Linux by *BSD as personnal workstations. This is due to the fact that Linux RedHat (for instance) give you a near Wxx installation with all coming on on the desktop (so the user see that as 'personnal', 'home', 'little', 'pretty', etc... all the Wxx view of things). On the other hand, FBSD with a CLI appears more solid, reliable, and .... remotely administrable. Someone said that FBSD/Linux compete for NT/W95. That's the *REALITY*. (even is comparing two OS with two GUI equipped with a disk shaker is hard). >From the 'server' point of vue: GUI or CLI ? -------------------------------------------- it is interesting to look back history of old commercial Unixes (POCUS): - Xenix, SCO Unix, AT&T's, etc... All relied to 'sysadmxxxxx' for modifying text files. - IBM AIX V1 and V2 used 'smit' for modifying an opaque registry - IBM AIX3 used smit for modifying text files with the interesting feature of letting you know what would have been the CLI equivalent - IBM AIX V4 returns, slowly, to an opaque registry. - SCO ODT, SUN solaris 2.x, DEC OSF (Dec unix, now) use a VERY VERY limited X GUI to alter text files and/or registry. FBSD uses a very consistent rc.conf definition and less configuration files than other systems (For example: try installing Linux then try to stop all the things you do not need! (May be i sucked but last time it required to modify about 50 files in the absurd rc*/*/*/* tree). This will facilitate the process of making an admin tool. I *DO* believe that adding a GUI must have two goals: - Having FBSD appear as 'advanced' to newbies admins (remember they only experienced poor X-GUI from U*X vendors or frustrating opaque NT) - Having this GUI learn them what files are involved in the operation they are requesting and what action will be taken ***** the word 'appear' is the important one **** For those who know what is DDD (the Dynamic Data Debugger: a very friendly graphic interface to GDB/XDB/DBX), somewhere in the documentation, there is the sentence: "why having a direct command window to the debuger ? because experienced users always found CLI more convenient than GUI". Having the whole system with all apps or tools using the same GUI driven setup is an impossible thing !! Remember history: it took 10 years to M$ to have all apps locked in the Motif look and now *THIS* is their only protection. This may seems a 'back to the roots' call but, sincerely, do you really believe it is time to compete with the W95 like integration of Linux ? Do you think that requesting all GPL products developpers to provide a setup script for FBSD is possible ? What FBSD needs, as a server box, is a mind change. Jordan told us what we *ARE* doing. History predicts that we *CAN'T* compete on GUI's. Time to imagine something new. I told a PR about how to change minds about a standard product. Here is, basically what he said : - if (you have an advantage over the others) { - make it a win - make their smaller } else { - find three or four words you want the public to have in mind when thinking to your product - Change a few thing in your product to make these words exist and to provide a physical base - Build a word that gather these words in a concept } for (try=0; try < MAX_TRY; try++) { make_noise(noise_level) ; if (they claim they do the same) { attach_stick("follower", to them) claim("we are the leader"); noise_level++; } if (their noise > your noise) noise_level++ ; if (it works) add(some new features sticking to the concept); else { prove(you, TRUE); prove(them, FALSE); } if (they take over you) { do(what they do) ; claim("It's something completly new, not a copy") ; claim("they try to catch our own concept, they will suck"); noise *= 100; } } if ((new_profession = random()) == old_profession) restart to beginning ; else change_profession(new_profession) ; (All this remind something, no ?) ----- This is my feeling. I spend a lot of time fighting every press issue in France to have them say '...Linux or FreeBSD...' and not only '...Linux...' and commercial vendors to have a FreeBSD offer side by side with the Linux one. I am really not interested on coming back to them saying 'ahem, well, okay but our buttons and checkboxes are prettyer'. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 04:40:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07156 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:40:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07151 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:40:37 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (pm02-20.aei.ca [206.123.6.145]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA25288; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:40:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35373F9D.741DBC3B@aei.ca> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:40:13 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rse@engelschall.com CC: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPECweb96 challenge References: <35363396.CF5289F3@partsnow.com> <19980417123801.A9264@engelschall.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > There is only one point you missed: the SPECweb96 benchmark costs $800 :-( > > Ralf S. Engelschall > rse@engelschall.com > www.engelschall.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message Does its so hard to find 800 box? You should insist on donation ;-) If each of us pay 1 box :-) Malartre -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 04:46:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07946 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 04:46:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07931 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:46:53 GMT (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id HAA01696; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:46:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Malartre cc: rse@engelschall.com, dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPECweb96 challenge In-Reply-To: <35373F9D.741DBC3B@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I kind of fail to see the point for shelling out ANY money. Why not force them to produce hard "real life" figures instead of benchmarks. Like have them show us a novell server doing 12 million web hits in 24 hour period and compare that to yahoo's figure of 12 million hits in a 24 hour period on a PC with FreeBSD :) Make THEM produce REAL WORLD figures and not benchmark mumbo jumbo. I'll be surprised if any of them can server half as many as yahoo on any hardware. Benchmarks are pointless and only good for leading mindless sheep to the slaughter house. IMO of course. Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 07:23:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29050 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29044 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:23:50 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-236.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.236]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA21210; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:22:56 GMT Message-ID: <3537657E.FC720698@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:21:50 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Konrad Heuer CC: Stefanos Kiakas , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Konrad Heuer wrote: [snip] > b) For many institutions I think - and definitely for us as a computer > center open to the internet community - system security is very very > important. I believe that FreeBSD is not worse here but if the FreeBSD > community could state that FreeBSD is an operating system with high > security (knocking out Linux, NT and so on) the number of our FreeBSD > boxes would dramatically increase. Once again I'm not sure: How important > is system security for the core team? > My impression is that security is _very_ important to -core. Security fixes come out before I've seen announcements of the hole anywhere else, and I read all the trade papers. Even moe than that, though, the basic fact that this is BSD and it is _open_ _source_, says that any holes that exist _will_ get discovered. See the great article on Security from SysAdmin magazine, the URL is posted on http://www.freebsd.org/press.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 07:26:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29549 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:26:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29532 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:26:22 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-236.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.236]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA82916; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:26:09 GMT Message-ID: <35376664.FDCB4FEF@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:25:40 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Konrad Heuer CC: Stefanos Kiakas , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Konrad Heuer wrote: > a) People that are interested in UNIX today (may be, only in Germany?) > don't know about the large contributions to the system made by the CSRG in > Berkeley. Berkeley UNIX doesn't meen much to them. Is there a chance or > the necessity (I'm not sure) to pronounce more the quality of the system? I agree wholeheartedly. We need to be proud of the pedigree of our code. There's a really great history in The Implementation of the 4.4BSD Operating System, maybe we can get permission from MKMcK to reprint it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 08:04:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07005 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:04:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06929 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:04:25 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-236.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.236]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA21174; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:03:22 GMT Message-ID: <35376EF9.5121678D@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:02:17 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: Dan Janowski , Das Devaraj , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What else goes with it (was Re: New name?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is so incredibly important and pertinent to -advocacy. Jason C. Wells wrote: > > On Wed, 15 Apr 1998, Dan Janowski wrote: > > > > Why does someone else want to use it? Do we tell people > > it is awsomely powerful for connecting to the Internet? > > This is a question of applications that run on the platform. There is a > good point here. Why does Joe User want to run FreeBSD? > > The website has a link on the front page to "applications". Then it > takes the user to a blurb and then the ports collection. > > Hmmm ports.... What is a port? > > Then this large list of apps with cryptic names is given. > > Hmmm plan9.... What is plan9? What is a shell? What is fvwm2? > > Now, let me say this. The website as I have discussed it so far is > completely sensible and sane _to me_, Joe User might not think so. > > Mr. Jankowski's comments are supported by the website. Look at that > "blurb" about the apps FreeBSD runs. It is all very heavy nerd stuff. > > Perhaps a rewrite of this page to be less nerdy would be in order. YES! Unfortunately, it appears to be automagically generated from the actual ports collection. Those _useless_to_a_BSD_newbie descriptions are part of the .DESCR file in each port. What we need to do is talk to the -ports committer about that. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 08:19:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09482 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:19:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from home.telepool.com (root@home.telepool.com [206.98.7.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09472 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:19:23 GMT (envelope-from jeffk@telepool.com) Received: from jeffk (host-201.telepool.com [206.103.205.201]) by home.telepool.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA23045 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:19:22 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jeffrey Kukkola" To: "Freebsd-Advocacy" Subject: RE: Promoting FreeBSD. Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:24:43 -0500 Message-ID: <004701bd6a14$f247e4d0$c9cd67ce@jeffk.telepool.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 In-Reply-To: <3536A33C.167EB0E7@ida.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG How about a set of Java apps to help with this? They would provide a GUI interface if someone needed it, and yet wouldn't hog resources if not running. I am a fairly new user to FreeBSD and Unix but am sold on FreeBSD. I am currently writing a Java app on WindowsNT, but I wouldn't mind exploring writing some stuff for FreeBSD in a month or two from now. I would need some input and testing from more experienced users. If anyone is interested, send me an email. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Mike > Sent: Thursday, April 16, 1998 7:33 PM > To: FreeBSD-Advocacy@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. > > > > Of course, then there's the argument that for servers it's silly to run > > X in the first place. > > Agreed. It sounds like people want a "FreeBSD for Idiots." The problem > with doing everything with X and a nice gui is it eats up memory and cpu > cycles. You can already use sysinstall to add users and a few > networking options can be changed as well. > > A program can be run from the command line and still be easy to use, > like the port apsfilter. If someone is too dumb to type "adduser" and > then follow a few simple instructions, maybe they shouldn't be calling > themselves a sysamdin in the first place. > > But, of course, I'm not speaking from the perspective of trying to > convince a company to use FreeBSD. I think FreeBSD is already easy to > use. I find SCO Openserver with all it's GUI tools a bit complex, not > to mention SLOW on my 486. FreeBSD performs quite well, however. > > Mike > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 08:24:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10695 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:24:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10643 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:24:07 GMT (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id LAA08215; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:20:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:24:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Jeffrey Kukkola cc: Freebsd-Advocacy Subject: RE: Promoting FreeBSD. In-Reply-To: <004701bd6a14$f247e4d0$c9cd67ce@jeffk.telepool.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Jeffrey Kukkola wrote: > How about a set of Java apps to help with this? They would provide a GUI > interface if someone needed it, and yet wouldn't hog resources if not > running. I am a fairly new user to FreeBSD and Unix but am sold on FreeBSD. > I am currently writing a Java app on WindowsNT, but I wouldn't mind > exploring writing some stuff for FreeBSD in a month or two from now. I would > need some input and testing from more experienced users. If anyone is > interested, send me an email. I think java is a great way to go if your going to do GUI's. The less bloat the better. I don't want to se FreeBSD start down the road towards windows(tm) land. ICK! Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 08:52:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14964 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:52:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smgmail.smgmail.com ([204.170.177.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14921 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:51:51 GMT (envelope-from AdamT@smginc.com) Received: from smginc.com (204.170.177.4 [204.170.177.4]) by smgmail.smgmail.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id 28QHTJ7H; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:47:18 -0400 Received: by smginc.com with Microsoft Mail id <35379BAA@smginc.com>; Fri, 17 Apr 98 11:12:58 PDT From: Adam Turoff To: Freebsd-Advocacy Subject: Linux Advocacy How-to Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 11:50:00 PDT Message-ID: <35379BAA@smginc.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This old (Feb '97) document resurfaced recently on slashdot.org. Linux Advocacy Mini-HOWTO: http://sunsite.unc.edu/LDP/HOWTO/mini/Advocacy.html Just another collection of sensible thoughts about spreading the message about package Foo. Not necessarily Linux specific (there are references to Linus et. al.); with a few diffs, it should be applicable to practically any open-source project like Apache, perl, FreeBSD or PostgreSQL. Presented in the spirit of Santayama: "those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it." (or words to that effect) -- Adam. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 09:04:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18509 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:04:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18407 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:04:31 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id JAA19900; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:04:29 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id JAA16162; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:04:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:03:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Don Wilde cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What else goes with it (was Re: New name?) In-Reply-To: <35376EF9.5121678D@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Jason C. Wells wrote: > > This is a question of applications that run on the platform. There is a > > good point here. Why does Joe User want to run FreeBSD? > > > > The website has a link on the front page to "applications". Then it > > takes the user to a blurb and then the ports collection. > > > > Hmmm ports.... What is a port? ** Major snip assuming most folks are following somewhat closely On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > This is so incredibly important and pertinent to -advocacy. > YES! Unfortunately, it appears to be automagically generated from the > actual ports collection. Those _useless_to_a_BSD_newbie descriptions are > part of the .DESCR file in each port. What we need to do is talk to the > -ports committer about that. Is there a method by which _all_ ports maintainers can be asked to beef up their descriptions? For example, "KDE is an integrated destkop much like CDE," presumes a knowledge of "desktop" and "CDE". This is not so bad. But _every_ KDE item has the same exact description. This is poor. Now consider this. We need not rely on the ports maintainers to provide a decent description. I am certain that if a user of a certain application, say POVRAY, was dissatisfied with the description, then that person could write a new description and mail it to the POVRAY port maintainer. I can bet that the port maintainer would not mind if someone helped out! The descriptions improve. The community gets involved. The maintainers don't get swamped with a decree from Jordan to beef up their descriptions. Sounds like a win-win situation to me. If many folks can agree with this idea, then I will make a new post calling for action. What say the community? Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 09:22:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22602 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:22:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ringworld.uniscape.com ([206.116.157.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA22497 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:21:58 GMT (envelope-from stefanos@ringworld.uniscape.com) Received: from traveler by ringworld.uniscape.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0M) id AA06465; Fri, 17 Apr 98 12:31:36 -0400 Message-Id: <9804171631.AA06465@ringworld.uniscape.com> Received: by traveler.uniscape.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA01516; Fri, 17 Apr 98 12:31:28 -0400 Content-Type: text/plain Mime-Version: 1.0 (NeXT Mail 3.3 v118.2) In-Reply-To: <35367D7D.9AE4092A@ibm.net> X-Nextstep-Mailer: Mail 3.3 (Enhance 2.0b5) Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.118.2) From: Stefanos Kiakas Date: Fri, 17 Apr 98 12:31:26 -0400 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. Reply-To: stefanos@ringworld.uniscape.com References: <9804162102.AA02400@ringworld.uniscape.com> <35367D7D.9AE4092A@ibm.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > Valid point. I still think, however, that the most good is done by > teaching _you_ how to write particular scripts/GUI tools for a client. When you set up a FreeBSD server at a small company they don't want to learn everything about FreeBSD. They want to be able to manage a few things so they can get their work done. > Adding and deleting users is an example of a tool that is relatively > constant from system to system, but beyond that, things start to break > down because there are so many different ways FreeBSD can be used. If > the tool is general enough to work, it becomes cumbersome and worse than > learning the text files. The tools should be specific for a particular task. stef --- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Stefanos Kiakas stefanos@uniscape.com http://www.uniscape.com/ e-Scape Information Systems Inc. 514.878.1084 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 10:06:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02092 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:06:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02032 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:05:58 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-236.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.236]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA65146; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:56:53 GMT Message-ID: <35376D98.7676B8AA@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:56:24 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rse@engelschall.com CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: SPECweb96 challenge References: <35363396.CF5289F3@partsnow.com> <19980417123801.A9264@engelschall.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ralf S. Engelschall wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 16, 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > > > > Novell Web Server Pushes Envelope > > > > > > Novell, Inc. reached a SPECweb96 benchmark of 1639 running > > > intraNetWare 4.11 on a single processor Compaq ProLiant 3000. > > > > I saw this in Internet Alert, an e-mail newsletter. Since we know FreeBSD > > excells as a webserver under load, this is our opportunity to set up to shoot > > some crows out of the sky. I don't personally like ProLiant servers, but let's > > see if we can approximate their hardware and tune our software -- out of the > > box, no source-code tweaks -- to dominate this SPEC. Have you looked at it? > > > > 1) Obtain SPECweb96 test guidelines > > 2) Obtain equivalent test platform hardware > > 3) Configure FreeBSD for max serving performance > > 4) Configure Apache for max serving performance > > 5) Run test > > 6) Promote results heavily!!!!! > > > > My best hardware is a PPro180 with 64MB, so I don't have a new enough machine, > > but I think this is exactly the kind of thing we FreeBSD advocates need to do to > > promote FreeBSD -- and get the IW's and NWW's and Byte's to acknowledge us. If > > we've got TBDOSITW, let's _prove_ it. > > There is only one point you missed: the SPECweb96 benchmark costs $800 :-( > > Ralf S. Engelschall > rse@engelschall.com > www.engelschall.com Between apache and freebsd we can't find $800? I'm going to ask Jordan if we can approach this from the central POV by putting out an official challenge call on the site and on -questions, -newbies and -chat, and where we can send the money. Ralf, will you find out the rest of the particulars as to what we need to actually perform a rigorous test that we can put side-by-side with the payware geeks? I'm sure Jordan's a bit miffed that they held a freeware conference in his back yard and didn't even invite him. This is the kind of thing we all need to do to get noticed. I for one am glad to contribute to things like this, even if it means my software now 'costs money'. A few press releases and documented wins will do more for us than all the advocacy chatter in the whole usenet. I think WC CDROM has done plenty to forward the cause, I don't want to ask them to pay for it. Where do I send my $50, Jordan? In a general sense that info should be posted on the site, but here's a genuine Challenge to pursue. I think we should do it!!!! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 10:08:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02500 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:08:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02389 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:07:48 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-236.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.236]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA65426; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:39:40 GMT Message-ID: <35376970.24006442@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:38:40 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Remy NONNENMACHER CC: "Karl M. Joch" , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Remy NONNENMACHER wrote: > > This may seems a 'back to the roots' call but, sincerely, do you really > believe it is time to compete with the W95 like integration of Linux ? > Do you think that requesting all GPL products developpers to provide a setup > script for FBSD is possible ? > I think we need to do that as part of porting. Really, most have sample scripts, all we need to do is write something that will plug in our new server's domain name and IP and make the script active. That's a little thing, but it would add immeasurably to the instant usability of FreeBSD. Every consultant wants to look good _quickly_ in a client's office, and having the @#$!! thing come up saying "can't find file!" is silly. > What FBSD needs, as a server box, is a mind change. Jordan told us what > we *ARE* doing. History predicts that we *CAN'T* compete on GUI's. Time > to imagine something new. > I agree. I only suggested setting up a 'port-driven' GUI/Personal Station because I thought it would be a quick (read minimum effort) answer to the PC wannatryit's we get queries from. I _like_ the CLI, although I'm for 18 years a programmer. BSD is driven by pipes and shells and text files, to obfuscate that would be to destroy it. What we need to do is to make our script tools complete and orthogonal. For example, aduser does all you want with adding, but where is rmuser? That's what we need to do, find ll those little gotchas. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 10:15:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03567 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:15:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03524 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:14:38 GMT (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12532; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:14:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: rse@engelschall.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPECweb96 challenge In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 17 Apr 1998 07:56:24 PDT." <35376D98.7676B8AA@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:14:20 -0700 Message-ID: <12528.892833260@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm willing to scrape together the $800 somehow if we REALLY think it's worth anything, but from my first reading of this event it looks more like a very poorly disguised revenue generation mechanism for the extremely gullible ("You may have already won a prize! Simply send us $50 in an envelope as a ``processing fee'' and we'll let you know if you're our grand prize winner!"). Is this really on the level or is it just another net.scam? Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 10:37:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06956 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:37:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from slarti.muc.de (slarti.muc.de [193.174.4.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA06815 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:36:36 GMT (envelope-from rse@en1.engelschall.com) Received: (qmail 624 invoked by uid 66); 17 Apr 1998 17:34:00 -0000 Received: by en1.engelschall.com (Sendmail 8.8.8) id TAA15084; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:35:43 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980417193543.A14608@engelschall.com> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:35:43 +0200 From: "Ralf S. Engelschall" To: dwilde1@ibm.net Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: SPECweb96 challenge Reply-To: rse@engelschall.com References: <35363396.CF5289F3@partsnow.com> <19980417123801.A9264@engelschall.com> <35376D98.7676B8AA@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <35376D98.7676B8AA@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Fri, Apr 17, 1998 at 07:56:24AM -0700 Organization: Engelschall, Germany. X-Home: http://www.engelschall.com/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Apr 17, 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > > > > Novell Web Server Pushes Envelope > > > > > > > > Novell, Inc. reached a SPECweb96 benchmark of 1639 running > > > > intraNetWare 4.11 on a single processor Compaq ProLiant 3000. > > >[...] > > > 1) Obtain SPECweb96 test guidelines > > > 2) Obtain equivalent test platform hardware > > > 3) Configure FreeBSD for max serving performance > > > 4) Configure Apache for max serving performance > > > 5) Run test > > > 6) Promote results heavily!!!!! > > > > > > My best hardware is a PPro180 with 64MB, so I don't have a new enough machine, > > > but I think this is exactly the kind of thing we FreeBSD advocates need to do to > > > promote FreeBSD -- and get the IW's and NWW's and Byte's to acknowledge us. If > > > we've got TBDOSITW, let's _prove_ it. > > > > There is only one point you missed: the SPECweb96 benchmark costs $800 :-( > > Between apache and freebsd we can't find $800? I'm going to ask Jordan > if we can approach this from the central POV by putting out an official > challenge call on the site and on -questions, -newbies and -chat, and > where we can send the money. Ralf, will you find out the rest of the > particulars as to what we need to actually perform a rigorous test that > we can put side-by-side with the payware geeks? >[...] Beside from the fact that I currently don't have time for any such stuff (I'm totally busy with Apache 1.3b6 and now 1.3b7) I'm not sure if your idea is really useful. Benchmarks are problematic in _a lot of cases_ and the final gain for FreeBSD+Apache is not obvious, IMHO. Everyone knows that we are doing a great work with FreeBSD and a great work with Apache. And everyone knows that both products work nicely together and form a powerful solution. But if a SPECweb96 benchmark result really is worth the effort of $800 I'm not sure. Instead I really think that a benchmark which costs $$ is a bogus one. It's just there for making money instead of making good results. So, it would be perhaps better to promote FreeBSD+Apache via other alternatives. But nevertheless if someone contributes $800 and the hardware plus time to run such a SPECweb96 benchmark with FreeBSD+Apache I'm interested in the results, of course. But I think it is not worth the effort... Greetings, Ralf S. Engelschall rse@engelschall.com www.engelschall.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 10:43:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA08481 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papaya.mail.easynet.net (papaya.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA08475 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:43:18 GMT (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: (qmail 2634 invoked from network); 17 Apr 1998 17:42:38 -0000 Received: from intschool.easynet.co.uk (HELO internationalschool.co.uk) (194.72.37.214) by papaya.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 17 Apr 1998 17:42:38 -0000 Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA17796 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:41:22 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35379447.AAE9A501@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:41:27 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... References: <35376970.24006442@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > > need to do is to make our script tools complete and orthogonal. For > example, aduser does all you want with adding, but where is rmuser? /usr/sbin -- "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 12:04:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03212 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:04:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stcgate.statcan.ca (stcgate.statcan.ca [142.206.192.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02931 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:04:14 GMT (envelope-from JEAYS@statcan.ca) Received: (from root@localhost) by stcgate.statcan.ca (8.6.11/8.6.9) id PAA16099; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:06:54 -0400 Received: from stcinet.statcan.ca(142.206.128.146) by stcgate via smap (V1.3) id sma015949; Fri Apr 17 19:05:42 1998 Received: from statcan.ca by statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA19936; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:04:08 -0400 Received: from smtpsha.statcan.ca by bora2.statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA00408; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:31:01 -0400 Received: from smtp_gate.iusd.statcan.ca by smtpsha.statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA08056; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:11:25 -0400 Message-Id: <199804171811.OAA08056@smtpsha.statcan.ca> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:17:00 -0400 From: "Jeays, Mike" Subject: RE: Promoting FreeBSD. To: Jeffrey Kukkola , Open Systems Networking Cc: Freebsd-Advocacy X-Mailer: Worldtalk (NetConnex V4.00a)/MIME Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG For writing GUI applications within FreeBSD, I find the TCL/TK environment preferable. Development seems a good bit faster, and small applications start much more quickly - the Java VM seems to take forever to load, and this is quite a nuisance with apps that are used frequently. TCL/TK is already available as a package, and can be set up as part of a base system more easily than Java, as it is at present, anyway. No, I don't want to start a flame war! ---------- From: Open Systems Networking To: Jeffrey Kukkola Cc: Freebsd-Advocacy Subject: RE: Promoting FreeBSD. Date: Friday, April 17, 1998 1:12PM On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Jeffrey Kukkola wrote: > How about a set of Java apps to help with this? They would provide a GUI > interface if someone needed it, and yet wouldn't hog resources if not > running. I am a fairly new user to FreeBSD and Unix but am sold on FreeBSD. > I am currently writing a Java app on WindowsNT, but I wouldn't mind > exploring writing some stuff for FreeBSD in a month or two from now. I would > need some input and testing from more experienced users. If anyone is > interested, send me an email. I think java is a great way to go if your going to do GUI's. The less bloat the better. I don't want to se FreeBSD start down the road towards windows(tm) land. ICK! Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 12:06:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03595 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:06:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from general1.consumersedge.com (mail.personalogic.com [208.213.67.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03559 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:06:45 GMT (envelope-from dshanes@personalogic.com) Received: from SHANES by general1.consumersedge.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id 29Y9CNPW; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:07:17 -0700 Message-ID: <01ac01bd6a33$254a13d0$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> From: "David Shanes" To: "Wolfram Schneider" , Subject: Re: http://www.freebsd.org/press.html Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:00:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG That looks great so far, but I would tend to move the link to the main page, vice via documentation. More visibility for the wary wanderers. If I came across a product on the web that I was familiar with, I would look for what the press has to say about it. If not the front page, at least move it to the top of the documentation page. David _____________________________________________________ David Shanes 7535 Metropolitan Drive dshanes@personalogic.com San Diego, CA 92108 Database Developer (619) 220-5800 x228 PersonaLogic, Inc. (619) 220-5899 (fax) http://www.PersonaLogic.com -----Original Message----- From: Wolfram Schneider To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Friday, April 17, 1998 2:55 AM Subject: http://www.freebsd.org/press.html >I setup a page for articles about FreeBSD. >http://www.freebsd.org/press.html > >-- >Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/ > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 14:43:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04755 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw3.pacbell.net (mail-gw3.pacbell.net [206.13.28.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04611 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:43:23 GMT (envelope-from taholmes@pacbell.net) Received: from [192.168.0.3] (ppp-207-215-142-196.sndg02.pacbell.net [207.215.142.196]) by mail-gw3.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with ESMTP id OAA26805 for ; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:43:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: taholmes@206.13.28.40 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:43:28 -0700 To: FREEBSD-ADVOCACY@FreeBSD.ORG From: Todd Holmes Subject: SUBSRCIBE FREEBSD-ADVOCACY Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG SUBSRCIBE FREEBSD-ADVOCACY To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 19:20:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09696 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:20:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA09555 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:19:24 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-234.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.234]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA30160; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:19:20 GMT Message-ID: <35380D8B.55ABC008@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:18:51 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Mayo CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD in Academia document References: <19980416234453.42186@vmunix.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If you have some time, I'd appreciate some feedback regarding: > http://www.vmunix.com/advocacy/academia.html > I think it's a great start, already told me a lot I didn't know! I'd add some detailed comparison points, such as those brought up in -chat over the last 3 weeks. Great start! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 19:35:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12196 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:35:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA12165 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:34:58 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-234.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.234]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA26820; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:34:36 GMT Message-ID: <35381120.A6A5703A@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:34:08 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jeays, Mike" CC: Jeffrey Kukkola , Open Systems Networking , Freebsd-Advocacy Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. References: <199804171811.OAA08056@smtpsha.statcan.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG My only concern is that Java is still a work-in-progress. I will _love_ it when it is stable, but the whole point of FreeBSD is to give us tools and ports that don't break every new release. The Java guys are still adapting 1.2 to FreeBSD, and there's no telling where it's going to stabilize. There are major diffs between 1.1 and 1.2. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 19:41:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13583 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:41:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA13528 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:40:45 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-234.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.234]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA26806; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:40:30 GMT Message-ID: <35381281.933B81EA@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:40:01 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Henderson CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... References: <35376970.24006442@ibm.net> <35379447.AAE9A501@internationalschool.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stuart Henderson wrote: > > Don Wilde wrote: > > > > need to do is to make our script tools complete and orthogonal. For > > example, aduser does all you want with adding, but where is rmuser? > > /usr/sbin See, somebody around here's thinking. I started with a 2.0.5 system set up by somebody else, and it wasn't there then. ;) TNX! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 19:47:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15226 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:47:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA15190 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:47:29 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-234.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.234]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA60404; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:47:21 GMT Message-ID: <3538141C.B067E439@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:46:52 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rse@engelschall.com CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@time.cdrom.com Subject: Re: SPECweb96 challenge References: <35363396.CF5289F3@partsnow.com> <19980417123801.A9264@engelschall.com> <35376D98.7676B8AA@ibm.net> <19980417193543.A14608@engelschall.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ralf S. Engelschall wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 17, 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > > > > > > Novell Web Server Pushes Envelope > > > > > > > > > > Novell, Inc. reached a SPECweb96 benchmark of 1639 running > > > > > intraNetWare 4.11 on a single processor Compaq ProLiant 3000. > > > >[...] > > > > 1) Obtain SPECweb96 test guidelines > > > > 2) Obtain equivalent test platform hardware > > > > 3) Configure FreeBSD for max serving performance > > > > 4) Configure Apache for max serving performance > > > > 5) Run test > > > > 6) Promote results heavily!!!!! > > > > > > > > My best hardware is a PPro180 with 64MB, so I don't have a new enough machine, > > > > but I think this is exactly the kind of thing we FreeBSD advocates need to do to > > > > promote FreeBSD -- and get the IW's and NWW's and Byte's to acknowledge us. If > > > > we've got TBDOSITW, let's _prove_ it. > > > > > > There is only one point you missed: the SPECweb96 benchmark costs $800 :-( > > > > Between apache and freebsd we can't find $800? I'm going to ask Jordan > > if we can approach this from the central POV by putting out an official > > challenge call on the site and on -questions, -newbies and -chat, and > > where we can send the money. Ralf, will you find out the rest of the > > particulars as to what we need to actually perform a rigorous test that > > we can put side-by-side with the payware geeks? > >[...] > > Beside from the fact that I currently don't have time for any such stuff (I'm > totally busy with Apache 1.3b6 and now 1.3b7) I'm not sure if your idea is > really useful. Benchmarks are problematic in _a lot of cases_ and the final > gain for FreeBSD+Apache is not obvious, IMHO. Everyone knows that we are doing > a great work with FreeBSD and a great work with Apache. And everyone knows > that both products work nicely together and form a powerful solution. But if a > SPECweb96 benchmark result really is worth the effort of $800 I'm not sure. > > Instead I really think that a benchmark which costs $$ is a bogus one. It's > just there for making money instead of making good results. So, it would be > perhaps better to promote FreeBSD+Apache via other alternatives. But > nevertheless if someone contributes $800 and the hardware plus time to run > such a SPECweb96 benchmark with FreeBSD+Apache I'm interested in the results, > of course. But I think it is not worth the effort... I saw reference to a WEBstone benchmark on SGI's site. I'll go dig up some info on that, and get back to you. SPEC is a commercially-backed consortium, but it IS a known entity, even if they constantly fight over what is the benchmark. My point is that it is sometimes important to beat them on their own turf. Perhaps another good entry point would be the new InfoWorld Testing Labs, although they do seem to be rather mercenary (!) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 19:53:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16059 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:53:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA16050 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:53:29 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-234.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.234]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA71080; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 02:53:17 GMT Message-ID: <35381581.7C0FA4A4@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:52:49 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPECweb96 challenge References: <12528.892833260@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'm willing to scrape together the $800 somehow if we REALLY think > it's worth anything, but from my first reading of this event it looks > more like a very poorly disguised revenue generation mechanism for the > extremely gullible ("You may have already won a prize! Simply send us > $50 in an envelope as a ``processing fee'' and we'll let you know if > you're our grand prize winner!"). Is this really on the level or is > it just another net.scam? SPEC is a commercially-funded consortium, yes, but it is very prominent (at least in system benching) and well-reported. It is also supposed to be vendor neutral. They have been benchmarking for about 5 years now, as I remember. Also, Jordan, I meant what I said about cash contributions. I think it's great that CDROM.com does what they do for us, and that's a lot, but one way to build loyalty is to put a reasonable request to 'put $$$ where your mouth is'. It works. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 20:01:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16776 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:01:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA16769 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 03:01:41 GMT (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15694; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SPECweb96 challenge In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:52:49 PDT." <35381581.7C0FA4A4@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:01:30 -0700 Message-ID: <15690.892868490@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Also, Jordan, I meant what I said about cash contributions. I think it's > great that CDROM.com does what they do for us, and that's a lot, but one > way to build loyalty is to put a reasonable request to 'put $$$ where > your mouth is'. It works. Um. No offense, but I can't parse that paragraph at all. What exactly are you trying to say? :) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 17 22:38:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06195 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:38:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@[206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06141 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:37:59 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@pm01-00.aei.ca [206.123.6.100]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA16988 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:37:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35383C1A.602F49F6@aei.ca> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:37:30 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Screen Shot Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey, I have seen a lot of people who where wanting screen shot. Why not giving them the screen shot on www.freebsd.org? Like a link on the first page to "what freebsd look like" Unix seems strange to new user... cya ;-) Malartre sorry for the bad english! -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 00:49:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19779 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:49:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA19774 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 07:49:06 GMT (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id DAA05130; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 03:45:36 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 03:49:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Don Wilde cc: "Jeays, Mike" , Jeffrey Kukkola , Freebsd-Advocacy Subject: Re: Promoting FreeBSD. In-Reply-To: <35381120.A6A5703A@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > > My only concern is that Java is still a work-in-progress. I will _love_ > it when it is stable, but the whole point of FreeBSD is to give us tools > and ports that don't break every new release. The Java guys are still > adapting 1.2 to FreeBSD, and there's no telling where it's going to > stabilize. There are major diffs between 1.1 and 1.2. Oh please, do you have any idea how MANY copies of Tcl and Tk I have in my /var/db/pkg ??????? 7 at last count. So in my opinion Tcl/Tk is more of a WIP than java. 7 freaking copies of Tcl/Tk to get different ports to run. Tcl/Tk should NOT be used. They release a new version as much as linux releases a new kernel. Ick. Ill pass thanks. Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 10:28:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23675 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:28:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA23449 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:27:29 GMT (envelope-from remy@synx.com) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA26182; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:32:16 +0100 Received: from rs1 by s3.synx.com id aa18024; 18 Apr 98 19:17 BST Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:16:38 -0100 (GMT) From: Remy NONNENMACHER To: Don Wilde cc: "Karl M. Joch" , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... In-Reply-To: <35376970.24006442@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > Remy NONNENMACHER wrote: > > > This may seems a 'back to the roots' call but, sincerely, do you really > > believe it is time to compete with the W95 like integration of Linux ? > > Do you think that requesting all GPL products developpers to provide a setup > > script for FBSD is possible ? > > > I think we need to do that as part of porting. Really, most have sample > scripts, all we need to do is write something that will plug in our new > server's domain name and IP and make the script active. That's a little > thing, but it would add immeasurably to the instant usability of > FreeBSD. Every consultant wants to look good _quickly_ in a client's > office, and having the @#$!! thing come up saying "can't find file!" is > silly. > Look good quickly: that's the point. First feeling is the one that will decide between going on deeper in the stuff or putting it away. FBSD, for now, needs you to go deeper before showing you advantages. In this way, it's harder to compete with a Wxx or a flashing Linux distribution. > > What FBSD needs, as a server box, is a mind change. Jordan told us what > > we *ARE* doing. History predicts that we *CAN'T* compete on GUI's. Time > > to imagine something new. > > > I agree. I only suggested setting up a 'port-driven' GUI/Personal > Station because I thought it would be a quick (read minimum effort) > answer to the PC wannatryit's we get queries from. I _like_ the CLI, > although I'm for 18 years a programmer. BSD is driven by pipes and > shells and text files, to obfuscate that would be to destroy it. What we > need to do is to make our script tools complete and orthogonal. For > example, aduser does all you want with adding, but where is rmuser? > That's what we need to do, find ll those little gotchas. > So let's go with the Tcl/Tk,X-Forms,pure X,Xaw,xxtif,etc... war. After that let's enter the street-fighting between implementations of the selected tool then the long-time effort of convinces GPL writters to take responsability over the FBSD (and i'm affraid FBSD only) setup tool. Writting GPL'ed software is democracy and freedom. Building a consistent GUI federating independant software needs (dictature?) and constraints. Someone feeling OK for becoming the big chief ? PS: and the same thing about monitoring and log processing. Setting up is one point. Graphical charts and that kind of stuff have the important effect of retaining attention of those who never seen that !! so it's a great marketing point. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 11:53:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10288 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 11:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ringworld.uniscape.com ([206.116.157.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA10278 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:53:52 GMT (envelope-from stefanos@ringworld.uniscape.com) Received: from traveler by ringworld.uniscape.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0M) id AA12030; Sat, 18 Apr 98 15:03:47 -0400 From: Stefanos Kiakas Message-Id: <9804181903.AA12030@ringworld.uniscape.com> Received: by traveler.uniscape.com (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA02148; Sat, 18 Apr 98 15:03:32 -0400 Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 15:03:32 -0400 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Remy NONNENMACHER wrote: >On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: >> Remy NONNENMACHER wrote: >> > What FBSD needs, as a server box, is a mind change. Jordan told us what >> > we *ARE* doing. History predicts that we *CAN'T* compete on GUI's. Time >> > to imagine something new. We should not compete with GUI, but it should be possible to perform minimal tasks with a GUI tool. >> I agree. I only suggested setting up a 'port-driven' GUI/Personal >> Station because I thought it would be a quick (read minimum effort) >> answer to the PC wannatryit's we get queries from. I _like_ the CLI, >> although I'm for 18 years a programmer. BSD is driven by pipes and >> shells and text files, to obfuscate that would be to destroy it. What we How is placing a GUI tool as a front end destroying BSD? Take for example adduser on FreeBSD 2.2.5. It asks you a few question, you reply, and it creates a user. Now imagine a GUI as the input tool, a user my update the configuration file by editing the fields and making selections with the mouse. He may then add the user by the same process. Once he has entered the information he clicks on a button which executes a script which will update the config file and add a user. How is this different than the adduser script? To show it another way +------------------------+ +-----------------------+ +------------------+ | GUI Tool | | adduser front end | | rmuser front end | | to: add user | | | | | | delete user | | update config file | | | | update config file | | add user | | | +------------------------+ +-----------------------+ +------------------+ | | | | | +--------------------- | ------------------------+ | | | +-----------+--------------+ | | | | | +----------------+ +--------------------+ | adduser script | | rmuser script | +----------------+ +--------------------+ >> need to do is to make our script tools complete and orthogonal. For >> example, aduser does all you want with adding, but where is rmuser? >> That's what we need to do, find ll those little gotchas. We should create the right scripts and provide both a GUI interface and a CLI interface. Both are important for different users. Beginners will feel comfortable using the GUI front end and experienced user can use the CLI front end or edit the text files if they so choose. This lack of a GUI tool for the basic day to day tasks is a big barrier when it comes to installing FreeBSD in a small company. I know, because it is the first thng clients ask when we propose a FreeBSD solution. Setting up the server is not a big deal, when we install a server they will pay us for the work, whether it is FreeBSD, Solaris, WinNT, or Novell. But they want to be able to do trivial tasks without learning how to use the CLI. I know! It is not difficult to use the CLI, but it does not matter to them and they don't care, *they want a GUI*. > >So let's go with the Tcl/Tk,X-Forms,pure X,Xaw,xxtif,etc... war. No let's not go with Tcl/Tk, how many versions are there? Let's go with a WWW interface and a Java or GNUstep interface. The WWW interface will allow the sysadmin to modify the server parameters without being at the console and can use any OS he pleases Win98/MacOS/OS2/etc. The same could be said for Java. I propose the GNUstep because it will be object oriented, and implement the NeXT look and feel. This is a personal preference and if anyone feels like discussing it please email me I don't want to take up more bandwidth on the list with GUI discussions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 12:09:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12312 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:09:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA12300 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:09:12 GMT (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA24678 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:08:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:08:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: template? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG With all the talk of FreeBSD advocacy of late (like say creating this list) I ran across a Linux advocacy how to. Good reading and we could essentially replace "Linux" with "FreeBSD" and have a good template (at least for starters) to get going. http://sunsite.unc.edu/LDP/HOWTO/mini/Advocacy.html ********************************************************* Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 12:23:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14903 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:23:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA14699 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:22:33 GMT (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from ares.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa06320; 18 Apr 98 15:22 EDT Received: from mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.67.12]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21722; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:22:30 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (atf3r@localhost) by mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA04519; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:22:29 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU: atf3r owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:22:29 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Malartre cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot In-Reply-To: <35383C1A.602F49F6@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > Hey, I have seen a lot of people who where wanting screen shot. > Why not giving them the screen shot on www.freebsd.org? > > Like a link on the first page to "what freebsd look like" > > Unix seems strange to new user... Well, I doubt a single screen shot coulw convey much of anything. There are just too many things that could be on a FreeBSD display. What would it be: X, emacs, the console, quake2, etc.? I suppose one rather impressive image involving FreeBSD is the Toshiba Libretto picture from the PAO project page. I just love that the X11 is runnig on FreeBSD o a computer that is not as deep as the SUN mouse next to it. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 12:35:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16384 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:35:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from puck.nether.net (irvingp@puck.nether.net [204.42.254.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16356 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:35:19 GMT (envelope-from irvingp@puck.nether.net) Received: from localhost (irvingp@localhost) by puck.nether.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA05212 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:35:17 -0400 Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:35:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Irving Popovetsky To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Some of the most impressive screenshots that I have personally seen have been on the webpages of various Window Managers: www.enlightenment.org (enlightenment wm) www.afterstep.org (afterstep) www.kde.org (the K Desktop environment) in their screenshots gallieries. While most of these screenshots were taken on Linux boxen, its still just XFree86 that they are running, and I have been able to achieve similar on my FreeBSD box. But some of those look real pretty, and make just as great of an argument for us as they do for the linux people, maybe even a better one :) -Irving On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Adrian T. Filipi-Martin wrote: > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:22:29 -0400 (EDT) > From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" > Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin > To: Malartre > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Screen Shot > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > Hey, I have seen a lot of people who where wanting screen shot. > > Why not giving them the screen shot on www.freebsd.org? > > > > Like a link on the first page to "what freebsd look like" > > > > Unix seems strange to new user... > > Well, I doubt a single screen shot coulw convey much of anything. > There are just too many things that could be on a FreeBSD display. What > would it be: X, emacs, the console, quake2, etc.? > > I suppose one rather impressive image involving FreeBSD is the > Toshiba Libretto picture from the PAO project page. I just love that the > X11 is runnig on FreeBSD o a computer that is not as deep as the SUN mouse > next to it. > > Adrian > -- > adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and > System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, > Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... > http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > -Irving Popovetsky ANS Communications - BigDial Operations Assistant Pioneer High School - Webmaster grok: /grok/, var. /grohk/ vt. [from the novel "Stranger in a Strange Land", by Robert A. Heinlein, where it is a Martian word meaning literally `to drink' and metaphorically `to be one with'] The emphatic form is `grok in fullness'. 1. To understand, usually in a global sense. Connotes intimate and exhaustive knowledge. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 12:44:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA17085 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:44:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17079 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:44:18 GMT (envelope-from bkogawa@primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27121 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:44:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from ip198.sjc.primenet.com(206.165.96.198), claiming to be "foo.primenet.com" via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd027098; Sat Apr 18 12:44:12 1998 Received: from localhost (bkogawa@localhost) by foo.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.6) with SMTP id MAA03106 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:45:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: foo.primenet.com: bkogawa owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:45:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Bryan K. Ogawa" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Article in NC world: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncworld/ncw-04-1998/ncw-04-nextten.html Nice, balanced mention of both Linux and *BSD (yes, including all 4 variants), as well as sharp criticism of NT's technical performance and good insight into MS's perspective. bryan k ogawa http://www.primenet.com/~bkogawa/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 12:54:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18540 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:54:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA18529 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:54:48 GMT (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA16590; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:49:40 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980419054936.41342@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:49:36 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: Malartre , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot References: <35383C1A.602F49F6@aei.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Adrian T. Filipi-Martin on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 03:22:29PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 03:22:29PM -0400, Adrian T. Filipi-Martin wrote: > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > Hey, I have seen a lot of people who where wanting screen shot. > > Why not giving them the screen shot on www.freebsd.org? > > > > Like a link on the first page to "what freebsd look like" > > > > Unix seems strange to new user... > > Well, I doubt a single screen shot coulw convey much of anything. > There are just too many things that could be on a FreeBSD display. What > would it be: X, emacs, the console, quake2, etc.? OK, what do you suggest? A number of different screen shots? Show variety? > I suppose one rather impressive image involving FreeBSD is the > Toshiba Libretto picture from the PAO project page. I just love that the > X11 is runnig on FreeBSD o a computer that is not as deep as the SUN mouse > next to it. That wouldn't have meant a thing to me when I started. You're almost saying it is better to have no idea than to have the wrong idea. I'm saying that no idea means that I don't want to go to the trouble of installing it to find out. Why would I bother? Should I form my conclusions about its appearance from whatever I am able to make it do in the first hour? Would that give a new user a better idea of its appearance than a single screen shot? Probably, but they wouldn't be all that impressed. It's silly to judge FreeBSD by the way it looks. We know that. They don't, and we don't get the chance to explain before they form critical impressions. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 13:08:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20126 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:08:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hobbes.crc.com (hobbes.crc.com [192.251.235.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA20100 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:07:49 GMT (envelope-from dpb@mail.hqs.crc.com) Received: from mail.hqs.crc.com(really [192.146.211.204]) by hobbes.crc.com via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:07:48 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #4 built 1997-Mar-21) Received: from localhost (dpb@localhost) by mail.hqs.crc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA12108; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:08:12 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dpb@mail.hqs.crc.com) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:08:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Benjamin To: Stefanos Kiakas cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... In-Reply-To: <9804181903.AA12030@ringworld.uniscape.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stefanos Kiakas writes: > I know! It is not difficult to use the CLI, but it does not matter to > them and they don't care, *they want a GUI*. This is very often the case in my experiences as well, and has, in some cases, been the reason a company might want NT in the first place (let's not go there). > No let's not go with Tcl/Tk, how many versions are there? Let's go with > a WWW interface and a Java or GNUstep interface. The WWW interface will allow > the sysadmin to modify the server parameters without being at the console and > can use any OS he pleases Win98/MacOS/OS2/etc. The same could be said for Java. This is an excellent point - and I know that from my standpoint, access to the server from anywhere on a floor or in a building (the way I depend on telnet) would be a great selling point. -Dan B. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 13:17:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20969 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20960 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:17:06 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-237.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.237]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA80322; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:16:35 GMT Message-ID: <35390A05.16B5482E@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:16:05 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Remy NONNENMACHER CC: "Karl M. Joch" , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Remy NONNENMACHER wrote: > > Writting GPL'ed software is democracy and freedom. Building a consistent GUI > federating independant software needs (dictature?) and constraints. > > Someone feeling OK for becoming the big chief ? I don't think we need or want to go in that direction. The idea is to create a port which loads a good starter system with some conservative specs, i.e., fvwm rather than fvwm2, 640x480, etc., and then runs a script which -- perhaps visibly -- configures the text files and explains what it's doing and why. The idea is that we only want to create a demo of ONE WAY you might set up a FreeBSD machine, and then lead them into the brave new world of changing it the FreeBSD way. If somebody wants to create a different demo system, let them! All I want to do is create that good first impression. I don't want to change the basic operation, because it's just what I need. I don't want GUI Admin tools as anything other than a port option. It would ruin the system to hook them into the core distribution! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 13:23:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22587 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:23:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mexcom.net (ver1-49.uninet.net.mx [200.38.135.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22088 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:22:15 GMT (envelope-from eculp@ver1.telmex.net.mx) Received: from sunix (telmex@sunix.mexcom.net [206.103.64.3]) by ns.mexcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA21629; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:18:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35390C79.13956D1B@ver1.telmex.net.mx> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:26:33 -0500 From: Edwin Culp Organization: Mexico Communicates, S.C. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.14 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Benjamin CC: Stefanos Kiakas , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Time to put on my flame proof suit. I can't wait any more. What is wrong with comming up with a vga xwindows and a simple mozilla as a configuration front end for configuration. This is the front end that more than maybe 80 Million people are using. Doesn't this tell us something? How many people are using Tcl/Tk or any other option? Thanks ed Dan Benjamin wrote: > > Stefanos Kiakas writes: > > > I know! It is not difficult to use the CLI, but it does not matter to > > them and they don't care, *they want a GUI*. > > This is very often the case in my experiences as well, and has, in some > cases, been the reason a company might want NT in the first place (let's > not go there). > > > No let's not go with Tcl/Tk, how many versions are there? Let's go with > > a WWW interface and a Java or GNUstep interface. The WWW interface will allow > > the sysadmin to modify the server parameters without being at the console and > > can use any OS he pleases Win98/MacOS/OS2/etc. The same could be said for Java. > > This is an excellent point - and I know that from my standpoint, access to > the server from anywhere on a floor or in a building (the way I depend on > telnet) would be a great selling point. > > -Dan B. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 13:24:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22816 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:24:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.91.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22811 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:24:39 GMT (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from trojanhorse.pr.watson.org (trojanhorse.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.10]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA07697; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:24:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@trojanhorse.pr.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Irving Popovetsky cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG So one unfortunate thing about the AfterStep and Enlightenment screen shots is as follows: a number of people I showed them to indicated that the objectified women (scantily clad) weren't so very encouraging when it came to selecting a desktop for use in a business. They were more interested in a professional-looking interface than this :). Microsoft, for example, does not advertise their Scantily-Clad Women Desktop Theme as a major feature of their windows products. While it would be unrealistic to expect that people do not use X-Windows for this kind of thing, attempting to advertise a product as a competitor with WindowsNT as a business server platform might benefit from a little less of this :). On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Irving Popovetsky wrote: > Some of the most impressive screenshots that I have personally seen have > been on the webpages of various Window Managers: > > www.enlightenment.org (enlightenment wm) > www.afterstep.org (afterstep) > www.kde.org (the K Desktop environment) > > in their screenshots gallieries. While most of these screenshots were > taken on Linux boxen, its still just XFree86 that they are running, and I > have been able to achieve similar on my FreeBSD box. > > But some of those look real pretty, and make just as great of an argument > for us as they do for the linux people, maybe even a better one :) > > -Irving > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Adrian T. Filipi-Martin wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:22:29 -0400 (EDT) > > From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" > > Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin > > To: Malartre > > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: Re: Screen Shot > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > > > Hey, I have seen a lot of people who where wanting screen shot. > > > Why not giving them the screen shot on www.freebsd.org? > > > > > > Like a link on the first page to "what freebsd look like" > > > > > > Unix seems strange to new user... > > > > Well, I doubt a single screen shot coulw convey much of anything. > > There are just too many things that could be on a FreeBSD display. What > > would it be: X, emacs, the console, quake2, etc.? > > > > I suppose one rather impressive image involving FreeBSD is the > > Toshiba Libretto picture from the PAO project page. I just love that the > > X11 is runnig on FreeBSD o a computer that is not as deep as the SUN mouse > > next to it. > > > > Adrian > > -- > > adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and > > System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, > > Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... > > http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > -Irving Popovetsky > ANS Communications - BigDial Operations Assistant > Pioneer High School - Webmaster > > grok: /grok/, var. /grohk/ vt. [from the novel "Stranger in a Strange > Land", by Robert A. Heinlein, where it is a Martian word meaning literally > `to drink' and metaphorically `to be one with'] The emphatic form is `grok > in fullness'. 1. To understand, usually in a global sense. Connotes > intimate and exhaustive knowledge. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > Robert N Watson ---- Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 13:35:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24251 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:35:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24230 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:35:18 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-237.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.237]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA41382; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:34:34 GMT Message-ID: <35390E3D.CE6B786F@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:34:05 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edwin Culp CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... References: <35390C79.13956D1B@ver1.telmex.net.mx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Edwin Culp wrote: > > Time to put on my flame proof suit. I can't wait any more. What is > wrong > with comming up with a vga xwindows and a simple mozilla as a > configuration > front end for configuration. This is the front end that more than maybe > 80 Million people are using. Doesn't this tell us something? How many > people are using Tcl/Tk or any other option? Well, actually, I sorta had something like that in the back of my mind, but you have to have the Apache AND the Mozilla AND the loaded to go there. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 13:42:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA25477 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:42:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25470 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:42:33 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-237.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.237]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA48544; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:42:30 GMT Message-ID: <35391019.74E25DAA@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:42:01 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jfieber@indiana.edu CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: screen shots Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello, John - One of the good ideas we have come up with on -advocacy is a gallery of screen shots of different things FreeBSD can look like. Would you consider this, give us some guidelines, and set up a repository location where we can dump the screen shots (and accompanying README-shotxxx files)? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 13:49:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27287 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:49:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27251 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:49:01 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (pm01-03.aei.ca [206.123.6.103]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA29102; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:48:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353911A9.D5280828@aei.ca> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:48:41 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson CC: Irving Popovetsky , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Show all. Show unix without xFree86. Show Unix with xFree86 Show unix with kde, fvwm, Enlightenment and all that stuff With explanation... and by promothing the versatility. And put it on the first page! I think than freebsd.org should have more link on the first page. Because presently, we have to search and browse a lot before finding something I want. more like BSDi.com no? Malartre Robert Watson wrote: > So one unfortunate thing about the AfterStep and Enlightenment screen > shots is as follows: a number of people I showed them to indicated that > the objectified women (scantily clad) weren't so very encouraging when it > came to selecting a desktop for use in a business. They were more > interested in a professional-looking interface than this :). Microsoft, > for example, does not advertise their Scantily-Clad Women Desktop Theme as > a major feature of their windows products. While it would be unrealistic > to expect that people do not use X-Windows for this kind of thing, > attempting to advertise a product as a competitor with WindowsNT as a > business server platform might benefit from a little less of this :). > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Irving Popovetsky wrote: > > > Some of the most impressive screenshots that I have personally seen have > > been on the webpages of various Window Managers: > > > > www.enlightenment.org (enlightenment wm) > > www.afterstep.org (afterstep) > > www.kde.org (the K Desktop environment) > > > > in their screenshots gallieries. While most of these screenshots were > > taken on Linux boxen, its still just XFree86 that they are running, and I > > have been able to achieve similar on my FreeBSD box. > > > > But some of those look real pretty, and make just as great of an argument > > for us as they do for the linux people, maybe even a better one :) > > > > -Irving > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Adrian T. Filipi-Martin wrote: > > > > > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:22:29 -0400 (EDT) > > > From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" > > > Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin > > > To: Malartre > > > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > > > Subject: Re: Screen Shot > > > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > > > > > Hey, I have seen a lot of people who where wanting screen shot. > > > > Why not giving them the screen shot on www.freebsd.org? > > > > > > > > Like a link on the first page to "what freebsd look like" > > > > > > > > Unix seems strange to new user... > > > > > > Well, I doubt a single screen shot coulw convey much of anything. > > > There are just too many things that could be on a FreeBSD display. What > > > would it be: X, emacs, the console, quake2, etc.? > > > > > > I suppose one rather impressive image involving FreeBSD is the > > > Toshiba Libretto picture from the PAO project page. I just love that the > > > X11 is runnig on FreeBSD o a computer that is not as deep as the SUN mouse > > > next to it. > > > > > > Adrian > > > -- > > > adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and > > > System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, > > > Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... > > > http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > -Irving Popovetsky > > ANS Communications - BigDial Operations Assistant > > Pioneer High School - Webmaster > > > > grok: /grok/, var. /grohk/ vt. [from the novel "Stranger in a Strange > > Land", by Robert A. Heinlein, where it is a Martian word meaning literally > > `to drink' and metaphorically `to be one with'] The emphatic form is `grok > > in fullness'. 1. To understand, usually in a global sense. Connotes > > intimate and exhaustive knowledge. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > Robert N Watson > > ---- > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ > SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 14:02:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29096 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:02:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from puck.nether.net (irvingp@puck.nether.net [204.42.254.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29087 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:02:17 GMT (envelope-from irvingp@puck.nether.net) Received: from localhost (irvingp@localhost) by puck.nether.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA06196; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:02:17 -0400 Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:02:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Irving Popovetsky To: Robert Watson cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, okay, so maybe one of the afterstep screenshots isnt a good idea to show :) I must say that one of the most impressive screenshots I have seen have been the ones on E's page that have demonstrated both form and function. One that I remember clearly is a screenshot where the guy was running (he fit quite a lot on his dekstop), Adobe Photoshop for macintosh, Mirc for windows 95 (to demonstrate windows emulation), Corel WordPerfect for UNIX, a few X apps (which I dont remember... maybe quake?), plus he had a little window open, that in readable text explained what was running on his desktop. no gore, no exploitation of women. KDE, on their page, also demonstrate a very businesslike and professional image. Anyway, we should put together some of our own screenshots, to create our own image. I run a beautiful 1280x1024 display and various WMs. I could put together some pretty screenshots of what kind of functionality I have, if only someone showed me how to make a screenshot (I dont know how, sorry): -Irving On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Robert Watson wrote: > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:24:27 -0400 (EDT) > From: Robert Watson > Reply-To: Robert Watson > To: Irving Popovetsky > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Screen Shot > > > So one unfortunate thing about the AfterStep and Enlightenment screen > shots is as follows: a number of people I showed them to indicated that > the objectified women (scantily clad) weren't so very encouraging when it > came to selecting a desktop for use in a business. They were more > interested in a professional-looking interface than this :). Microsoft, > for example, does not advertise their Scantily-Clad Women Desktop Theme as > a major feature of their windows products. While it would be unrealistic > to expect that people do not use X-Windows for this kind of thing, > attempting to advertise a product as a competitor with WindowsNT as a > business server platform might benefit from a little less of this :). > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Irving Popovetsky wrote: > > > Some of the most impressive screenshots that I have personally seen have > > been on the webpages of various Window Managers: > > > > www.enlightenment.org (enlightenment wm) > > www.afterstep.org (afterstep) > > www.kde.org (the K Desktop environment) > > > > in their screenshots gallieries. While most of these screenshots were > > taken on Linux boxen, its still just XFree86 that they are running, and I > > have been able to achieve similar on my FreeBSD box. > > > > But some of those look real pretty, and make just as great of an argument > > for us as they do for the linux people, maybe even a better one :) > > > > -Irving > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Adrian T. Filipi-Martin wrote: > > > > > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:22:29 -0400 (EDT) > > > From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" > > > Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin > > > To: Malartre > > > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > > > Subject: Re: Screen Shot > > > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > > > > > Hey, I have seen a lot of people who where wanting screen shot. > > > > Why not giving them the screen shot on www.freebsd.org? > > > > > > > > Like a link on the first page to "what freebsd look like" > > > > > > > > Unix seems strange to new user... > > > > > > Well, I doubt a single screen shot coulw convey much of anything. > > > There are just too many things that could be on a FreeBSD display. What > > > would it be: X, emacs, the console, quake2, etc.? > > > > > > I suppose one rather impressive image involving FreeBSD is the > > > Toshiba Libretto picture from the PAO project page. I just love that the > > > X11 is runnig on FreeBSD o a computer that is not as deep as the SUN mouse > > > next to it. > > > > > > Adrian > > > -- > > > adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and > > > System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, > > > Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... > > > http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > -Irving Popovetsky > > ANS Communications - BigDial Operations Assistant > > Pioneer High School - Webmaster > > > > grok: /grok/, var. /grohk/ vt. [from the novel "Stranger in a Strange > > Land", by Robert A. Heinlein, where it is a Martian word meaning literally > > `to drink' and metaphorically `to be one with'] The emphatic form is `grok > > in fullness'. 1. To understand, usually in a global sense. Connotes > > intimate and exhaustive knowledge. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > Robert N Watson > > > ---- > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ > SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > -Irving Popovetsky ANS Communications - BigDial Operations Assistant Pioneer High School - Webmaster grok: /grok/, var. /grohk/ vt. [from the novel "Stranger in a Strange Land", by Robert A. Heinlein, where it is a Martian word meaning literally `to drink' and metaphorically `to be one with'] The emphatic form is `grok in fullness'. 1. To understand, usually in a global sense. Connotes intimate and exhaustive knowledge. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 14:15:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01291 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.91.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01286 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:15:15 GMT (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from trojanhorse.pr.watson.org (trojanhorse.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.10]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA08319; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:15:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:15:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@trojanhorse.pr.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Irving Popovetsky cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I certainly don't debate the technical impressiveness of what has been achieved with the window-managers. I was particularly impressed by the cleanness of the KDE interface (although I'd swear I'd seen some of the layout somewhere before :). Did KDE ever figure out the licensing thing with QT? I saw a post somewhere recently where they indicated they were working on an arrangement to fix the problem, but I don't know what came of that. A lot of people have problems with the license, last I heard, due to its anti-commercial nature -- something that FreeBSD has rigorously advoided. I personally run olvwm -- I like the simplicity of the interface, as well as the consistency of the virtual window managing. It also runs nicely on low-scale workstations. A nice screenshot of FreeBSD might be one that demonstrated its capabilities as an easy-to-manage web server (since that's real popular just now). If we had emulation of more recent BSD/OS code, we could demonstrate the Netscape navigator with the Fasttrack web configuration interface in one portion of the screen, etc. Unfortunately, what looks nice in a screen-shot is a nice gui admin interface -- which takes us back to the other conversation of choice. :) I picture of ftp.cdrom.com would be a nice seller, however. Perhaps with a slogan like, "This machine ships out more files than 26 Windows NT ftp servers at Microsoft", where 26 is the appropriate number. On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Irving Popovetsky wrote: > Well, okay, so maybe one of the afterstep screenshots isnt a good idea to > show :) > > I must say that one of the most impressive screenshots I have seen have > been the ones on E's page that have demonstrated both form and function. > One that I remember clearly is a screenshot where the guy was running (he > fit quite a lot on his dekstop), Adobe Photoshop for macintosh, Mirc for > windows 95 (to demonstrate windows emulation), Corel WordPerfect > for UNIX, a few X apps (which I dont remember... maybe quake?), plus he > had a little window open, that in readable text explained what was running > on his desktop. no gore, no exploitation of women. > > KDE, on their page, also demonstrate a very businesslike and professional > image. > > Anyway, we should put together some of our own screenshots, to create our > own image. I run a beautiful 1280x1024 display and various WMs. I could > put together some pretty screenshots of what kind of functionality I have, > if only someone showed me how to make a screenshot (I dont know how, sorry): > > -Irving > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Robert Watson wrote: > > > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:24:27 -0400 (EDT) > > From: Robert Watson > > Reply-To: Robert Watson > > To: Irving Popovetsky > > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: Re: Screen Shot > > > > > > So one unfortunate thing about the AfterStep and Enlightenment screen > > shots is as follows: a number of people I showed them to indicated that > > the objectified women (scantily clad) weren't so very encouraging when it > > came to selecting a desktop for use in a business. They were more > > interested in a professional-looking interface than this :). Microsoft, > > for example, does not advertise their Scantily-Clad Women Desktop Theme as > > a major feature of their windows products. While it would be unrealistic > > to expect that people do not use X-Windows for this kind of thing, > > attempting to advertise a product as a competitor with WindowsNT as a > > business server platform might benefit from a little less of this :). > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Irving Popovetsky wrote: > > > > > Some of the most impressive screenshots that I have personally seen have > > > been on the webpages of various Window Managers: > > > > > > www.enlightenment.org (enlightenment wm) > > > www.afterstep.org (afterstep) > > > www.kde.org (the K Desktop environment) > > > > > > in their screenshots gallieries. While most of these screenshots were > > > taken on Linux boxen, its still just XFree86 that they are running, and I > > > have been able to achieve similar on my FreeBSD box. > > > > > > But some of those look real pretty, and make just as great of an argument > > > for us as they do for the linux people, maybe even a better one :) > > > > > > -Irving > > > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Adrian T. Filipi-Martin wrote: > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:22:29 -0400 (EDT) > > > > From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" > > > > Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin > > > > To: Malartre > > > > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > > > > Subject: Re: Screen Shot > > > > > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hey, I have seen a lot of people who where wanting screen shot. > > > > > Why not giving them the screen shot on www.freebsd.org? > > > > > > > > > > Like a link on the first page to "what freebsd look like" > > > > > > > > > > Unix seems strange to new user... > > > > > > > > Well, I doubt a single screen shot coulw convey much of anything. > > > > There are just too many things that could be on a FreeBSD display. What > > > > would it be: X, emacs, the console, quake2, etc.? > > > > > > > > I suppose one rather impressive image involving FreeBSD is the > > > > Toshiba Libretto picture from the PAO project page. I just love that the > > > > X11 is runnig on FreeBSD o a computer that is not as deep as the SUN mouse > > > > next to it. > > > > > > > > Adrian > > > > -- > > > > adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and > > > > System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, > > > > Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... > > > > http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Irving Popovetsky > > > ANS Communications - BigDial Operations Assistant > > > Pioneer High School - Webmaster > > > > > > grok: /grok/, var. /grohk/ vt. [from the novel "Stranger in a Strange > > > Land", by Robert A. Heinlein, where it is a Martian word meaning literally > > > `to drink' and metaphorically `to be one with'] The emphatic form is `grok > > > in fullness'. 1. To understand, usually in a global sense. Connotes > > > intimate and exhaustive knowledge. > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > Robert N Watson > > > > > > ---- > > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > > Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ > > SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ > > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > > > > > -Irving Popovetsky > ANS Communications - BigDial Operations Assistant > Pioneer High School - Webmaster > > grok: /grok/, var. /grohk/ vt. [from the novel "Stranger in a Strange > Land", by Robert A. Heinlein, where it is a Martian word meaning literally > `to drink' and metaphorically `to be one with'] The emphatic form is `grok > in fullness'. 1. To understand, usually in a global sense. Connotes > intimate and exhaustive knowledge. > > Robert N Watson ---- Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 14:34:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04143 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:34:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from puck.nether.net (irvingp@puck.nether.net [204.42.254.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04132 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:34:30 GMT (envelope-from irvingp@puck.nether.net) Received: from localhost (irvingp@localhost) by puck.nether.net (8.9.0.Beta5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA06488 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:34:34 -0400 Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:34:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Irving Popovetsky To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I guess the way to demonstrate the power of FreeBSD as a webserver is being discussed very well in some other threads :) Also, the testimony of the guy who runs Yahoo on a FreeBSD server farm is excellent persuasion, especially now that Yahoo is raking in quite a bit of money. The point of some X screenshots would do 2 things. a) argue that FreeBSD, as a workstation, can do everything that linux can, and better. b) argue the exact same point that the Linux screenshots are, that its far better than any Microsoft product, in terms of sheer beauty, power, effectiveness,etc (productivity?) And that would be excellent for FreeBSD, as an operating system. Right now its being sold with emphasis on a very mature, powerful and solid server platform, which it is, and its something that FreeBSD does best. but what if it were also marketed as a workstation platform, both high-powered and low-powered? Especially with new tools coming out like Blender (www.neogeo.nl), a 3D modelling package that Im trying out as we speak, a few screenshots could also show effectiveness for -office productivity -graphical design -musical stuff -network/systems management -(perhaps just a fun platform? :) There have always been a group of people out there, with a very strong voice, that have been attracted to cutting edge, yet creative computing. Those people used AmigaOS, then switched to MacOS, and are now being lured over to Linux, all the time with an "anything but the corporate monstrosity" attitude. by showing a platform that works for the right-brainers too, we can score ourselves a new consumer-base. (sorry for ranting) -Irving On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Robert Watson wrote: > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:15:05 -0400 (EDT) > From: Robert Watson > Reply-To: Robert Watson > To: Irving Popovetsky > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Screen Shot > > > I certainly don't debate the technical impressiveness of what has been > achieved with the window-managers. I was particularly impressed by the > cleanness of the KDE interface (although I'd swear I'd seen some of the > layout somewhere before :). Did KDE ever figure out the licensing thing > with QT? I saw a post somewhere recently where they indicated they were > working on an arrangement to fix the problem, but I don't know what came > of that. A lot of people have problems with the license, last I heard, > due to its anti-commercial nature -- something that FreeBSD has rigorously > advoided. > > I personally run olvwm -- I like the simplicity of the interface, as well > as the consistency of the virtual window managing. It also runs nicely on > low-scale workstations. > > A nice screenshot of FreeBSD might be one that demonstrated its > capabilities as an easy-to-manage web server (since that's real popular > just now). If we had emulation of more recent BSD/OS code, we could > demonstrate the Netscape navigator with the Fasttrack web configuration > interface in one portion of the screen, etc. Unfortunately, what looks > nice in a screen-shot is a nice gui admin interface -- which takes us back > to the other conversation of choice. :) I picture of ftp.cdrom.com would > be a nice seller, however. Perhaps with a slogan like, "This machine > ships out more files than 26 Windows NT ftp servers at Microsoft", where > 26 is the appropriate number. > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Irving Popovetsky wrote: > > > Well, okay, so maybe one of the afterstep screenshots isnt a good idea to > > show :) > > > > I must say that one of the most impressive screenshots I have seen have > > been the ones on E's page that have demonstrated both form and function. > > One that I remember clearly is a screenshot where the guy was running (he > > fit quite a lot on his dekstop), Adobe Photoshop for macintosh, Mirc for > > windows 95 (to demonstrate windows emulation), Corel WordPerfect > > for UNIX, a few X apps (which I dont remember... maybe quake?), plus he > > had a little window open, that in readable text explained what was running > > on his desktop. no gore, no exploitation of women. > > > > KDE, on their page, also demonstrate a very businesslike and professional > > image. > > > > Anyway, we should put together some of our own screenshots, to create our > > own image. I run a beautiful 1280x1024 display and various WMs. I could > > put together some pretty screenshots of what kind of functionality I have, > > if only someone showed me how to make a screenshot (I dont know how, sorry): > > > > -Irving > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Robert Watson wrote: > > > > > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:24:27 -0400 (EDT) > > > From: Robert Watson > > > Reply-To: Robert Watson > > > To: Irving Popovetsky > > > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > > > Subject: Re: Screen Shot > > > > > > > > > So one unfortunate thing about the AfterStep and Enlightenment screen > > > shots is as follows: a number of people I showed them to indicated that > > > the objectified women (scantily clad) weren't so very encouraging when it > > > came to selecting a desktop for use in a business. They were more > > > interested in a professional-looking interface than this :). Microsoft, > > > for example, does not advertise their Scantily-Clad Women Desktop Theme as > > > a major feature of their windows products. While it would be unrealistic > > > to expect that people do not use X-Windows for this kind of thing, > > > attempting to advertise a product as a competitor with WindowsNT as a > > > business server platform might benefit from a little less of this :). > > > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Irving Popovetsky wrote: > > > > > > > Some of the most impressive screenshots that I have personally seen have > > > > been on the webpages of various Window Managers: > > > > > > > > www.enlightenment.org (enlightenment wm) > > > > www.afterstep.org (afterstep) > > > > www.kde.org (the K Desktop environment) > > > > > > > > in their screenshots gallieries. While most of these screenshots were > > > > taken on Linux boxen, its still just XFree86 that they are running, and I > > > > have been able to achieve similar on my FreeBSD box. > > > > > > > > But some of those look real pretty, and make just as great of an argument > > > > for us as they do for the linux people, maybe even a better one :) > > > > > > > > -Irving > > > > > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Adrian T. Filipi-Martin wrote: > > > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:22:29 -0400 (EDT) > > > > > From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" > > > > > Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin > > > > > To: Malartre > > > > > Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > > > > > Subject: Re: Screen Shot > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Hey, I have seen a lot of people who where wanting screen shot. > > > > > > Why not giving them the screen shot on www.freebsd.org? > > > > > > > > > > > > Like a link on the first page to "what freebsd look like" > > > > > > > > > > > > Unix seems strange to new user... > > > > > > > > > > Well, I doubt a single screen shot coulw convey much of anything. > > > > > There are just too many things that could be on a FreeBSD display. What > > > > > would it be: X, emacs, the console, quake2, etc.? > > > > > > > > > > I suppose one rather impressive image involving FreeBSD is the > > > > > Toshiba Libretto picture from the PAO project page. I just love that the > > > > > X11 is runnig on FreeBSD o a computer that is not as deep as the SUN mouse > > > > > next to it. > > > > > > > > > > Adrian > > > > > -- > > > > > adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and > > > > > System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, > > > > > Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... > > > > > http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Irving Popovetsky > > > > ANS Communications - BigDial Operations Assistant > > > > Pioneer High School - Webmaster > > > > > > > > grok: /grok/, var. /grohk/ vt. [from the novel "Stranger in a Strange > > > > Land", by Robert A. Heinlein, where it is a Martian word meaning literally > > > > `to drink' and metaphorically `to be one with'] The emphatic form is `grok > > > > in fullness'. 1. To understand, usually in a global sense. Connotes > > > > intimate and exhaustive knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > Robert N Watson > > > > > > > > > ---- > > > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > > > Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ > > > SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ > > > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > > > > > > > > > -Irving Popovetsky > > ANS Communications - BigDial Operations Assistant > > Pioneer High School - Webmaster > > > > grok: /grok/, var. /grohk/ vt. [from the novel "Stranger in a Strange > > Land", by Robert A. Heinlein, where it is a Martian word meaning literally > > `to drink' and metaphorically `to be one with'] The emphatic form is `grok > > in fullness'. 1. To understand, usually in a global sense. Connotes > > intimate and exhaustive knowledge. > > > > > > > Robert N Watson > > > ---- > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ > SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > -Irving Popovetsky ANS Communications - BigDial Operations Assistant Pioneer High School - Webmaster grok: /grok/, var. /grohk/ vt. [from the novel "Stranger in a Strange Land", by Robert A. Heinlein, where it is a Martian word meaning literally `to drink' and metaphorically `to be one with'] The emphatic form is `grok in fullness'. 1. To understand, usually in a global sense. Connotes intimate and exhaustive knowledge. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 14:38:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04645 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:38:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dns.mail.ida.net (mail.ida.net [204.228.203.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04619 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:38:04 GMT (envelope-from muck@ida.net) Received: from falcon.hinterlands.com (tc-pt1-31.ida.net [208.141.181.40]) by dns.mail.ida.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA14986 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:31:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <35391D64.41C67EA6@ida.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:38:44 -0600 From: Mike X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert Watson wrote: > > I certainly don't debate the technical impressiveness of what has been > achieved with the window-managers. I was particularly impressed by the > cleanness of the KDE interface (although I'd swear I'd seen some of the > layout somewhere before :). Did KDE ever figure out the licensing thing > with QT? I saw a post somewhere recently where they indicated they were > working on an arrangement to fix the problem, but I don't know what came > of that. A lot of people have problems with the license, last I heard, > due to its anti-commercial nature -- something that FreeBSD has rigorously > advoided. > > I personally run olvwm -- I like the simplicity of the interface, as well > as the consistency of the virtual window managing. It also runs nicely on > low-scale workstations. > > A nice screenshot of FreeBSD might be one that demonstrated its > capabilities as an easy-to-manage web server (since that's real popular > just now). If we had emulation of more recent BSD/OS code, we could > demonstrate the Netscape navigator with the Fasttrack web configuration > interface in one portion of the screen, etc. Unfortunately, what looks > nice in a screen-shot is a nice gui admin interface -- which takes us back > to the other conversation of choice. :) I picture of ftp.cdrom.com would > be a nice seller, however. Perhaps with a slogan like, "This machine > ships out more files than 26 Windows NT ftp servers at Microsoft", where > 26 is the appropriate number. According to Microsoft, ( http://www.microsoft.com/Misc/Mscomfaq2.htm ) they have 31 dedicated servers worldwide that have 8.7 gigs of data available for download. These servers are complemented by another 130 servers around the world. I'll leave it to someone else to judge wheather that's a lot of servers to use to offer 8.7 gigs of files for download. Funny thing is, by Microsoft's viewpoint, they probably think that they're bragging when they say that they use hundreds of servers to operate their web and download sites. Mike P.S. Does anybody else but me think that you shouldn't quote the whole friggin' message when replying? Be kind on other people's slow links. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 14:55:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09376 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA09363 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:55:42 GMT (envelope-from <@rn.synx.com:root@rn.synx.com>) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA27284; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:00:25 +0100 Received: from rn by s3.synx.com id aa18858; 18 Apr 98 23:45 BST Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:55:09 +0200 (CEST) From: remy@synx.com Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: eculp@ver1.telmex.net.mx, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35390E3D.CE6B786F@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: <9804182345.aa18858@s3.synx.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 18 Apr, Don Wilde wrote: > Edwin Culp wrote: >> >> Time to put on my flame proof suit. I can't wait any more. What is >> wrong >> with comming up with a vga xwindows and a simple mozilla as a >> configuration >> front end for configuration. This is the front end that more than maybe >> 80 Million people are using. Doesn't this tell us something? How many >> people are using Tcl/Tk or any other option? > > Well, actually, I sorta had something like that in the back of my mind, > but you have to have the Apache AND the Mozilla AND the poisonous CGI script language> loaded to go there. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message (See what i meant when i was saying war, Don ?) About Tcl/Tk: surely the less stable thing (how many versions ?) But, god, how strange and beautifull things they do with !! (have a look at the TKrat mailer) About WWW: Have a look at the www configuration interface of BSDI3. (Even discovering it, i was able to impress 2 or 3 Wxx guys around) Seeking for new looks : Take 1 minute looking at 'gv'. It was the first time i stopped to one, wondering why it looks like other and why it hav e a so different feeling. About JAVA: How many of us have disabled it in order to have Netscape not looping at the end ? About KDE: how different from Motif & CDE ? About Enlightment: The great return of Next, Amiga, etc.... (toy story and SF) About fvwm: MotifowinNT95 !! Where is imagination ? Let's change mind: Everybody take X-Forms (it a have a nice rapid protypeing tool) and build a screenshot for a Network configuration pannel. We will see if we can do a *NEW* thing. If yes let's proceed, if no, lets follow the (commercial) leaders (www or Java stuff). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 15:52:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19173 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:52:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19163 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:52:38 GMT (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA26464 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:52:25 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:52:25 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor Reply-To: Brett Taylor To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: screen shots Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi all, Excuse me for jumping in late on this but I just bothered to subscribe. :-) There was a mention of putting up screen shots for people to look at from FBSD machines and picking and choosing. I have my own machine hanging out here at the long end of 2 T1 lines and a moderate amount of disk space. I'd be willing to take on the job of collecting screen shots and putting them up so people could view them. Ground rules for the screenshots - - include a little "readme" file that tells me what apps you have up (if it's not obvious), what window manager you're running etc..., and what you use your machine for (personal, research, business) - if you are running a "theme" from theme-supported window managers, is the theme publically available? If so where? - the image - PLEASE no image files that are > say 300 kB (I'm running 32 bpp at 1280x1024 and a jpeg at 1280x1024 was less than 300 kB from the grab) - not a rule really, but I'd like to get a cross section of screen shots, everything from "wow - that's gorgeous" to "look at the work you can do on a FreeBSD machine!" with lots of neat, useful apps on the screen. I've got a friend using his 3 FreeBSD machines to help finish his solar physics PhD thesis and he'll have both. :-) I'll give people a week or so to get submissions to me and then I'll set up a little "vote for your favorite screenshot" web page and maybe we can get a few of them up on www.freebsd.org. Please upload (I really don't want say 20 MB of jpegs sitting in my mail folder) by ftp'ing to my machine and place them in the incoming directory to : peloton.physics.montana.edu/incoming and then send me email w/ your description AND the name of the file you uploaded. Oh, and don't everyone call theirs "screen.jpg". :-) For those who don't know how to grab a screenshot, you have a multitude of choices - xwd, xgrab (in ports) and xv. Xgrab works only on 8 bpp displays, and xwd seems to have trouble at 32 bpp. XV works great - just start up xv, get the control window open and right above the quit button is a "Grab" button. I use the autograb option w/ a small delay - if you place your mouse on the root window you'll capture the whole screen - if you're in a window, you'll only get the window. ********************************************************* Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 18:08:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15726 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:08:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15704 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:08:12 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from mustang (pm3h-18.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.115]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA22002; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:05:57 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:07:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@mustang To: Edwin Culp cc: Dan Benjamin , Stefanos Kiakas , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... In-Reply-To: <35390C79.13956D1B@ver1.telmex.net.mx> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Personally, I use Tcl/Tk apps....don't know how to write them, but I know how to compile and use them. That's because I'm just a user, not a programmer. I also use KDE...because it looks nice, it works great, and makes life on a Unix workstation so much easier. I don't have to mess with any rc files or anything like that. KDE is simple...point and click. That might be "icky" to programmers, but it's nice to users. What's the point of the computer revolution (newer faster chips, faster motherboards and video cards, etc) if we're stuck using CLI all the time. Sure, it's quick and dirty, and sometimes easier...but GUI tools can be just as good, if not better. Sometimes I'm compelled to say, "Out with the old, and in with the new." In other words, let's dump the old methods and develop new methods, but I know that many would disagree. Hell, even sometimes I would too. I understand that CLI tools are alot smaller and less memory dependent than alot of GUI tools. And, on a Unix system that has a heavy workload....you many not want the drag. So, a CLI enviroment is a good thing. But that's the beauty of Unix...if you only want CLI...then don't install X. If you want GUI, then install X and associated tools. It's all up to the user/administrator. Anyways...as I read back...it seems like I'm just rambling. Sorry. But my point is...average Users coming from a Windows world need tools that are just as easy to use as those found in other OS's (you know which I'm talking about...don't need to say it). Those easy to use graphical tools would make FreeBSD a bit more attractive to them. Powerful + Pretty = more people using FreeBSD for whatever reason. Well, at least that's my opinion...which may not mean much. :) Oh yeah, one more thing....let's try to steal people away from Linux. :) Actually, I'm migrating from Linux to FreeBSD. Joey Garcia =================================================== Joseph Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net "Dont drink and drive, you might spill the beer." =================================================== On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Edwin Culp wrote: > Time to put on my flame proof suit. I can't wait any more. What is > wrong > with comming up with a vga xwindows and a simple mozilla as a > configuration > front end for configuration. This is the front end that more than maybe > 80 Million people are using. Doesn't this tell us something? How many > people are using Tcl/Tk or any other option? > > Thanks > > ed > > > Dan Benjamin wrote: > > > > Stefanos Kiakas writes: > > > > > I know! It is not difficult to use the CLI, but it does not matter to > > > them and they don't care, *they want a GUI*. > > > > This is very often the case in my experiences as well, and has, in some > > cases, been the reason a company might want NT in the first place (let's > > not go there). > > > > > No let's not go with Tcl/Tk, how many versions are there? Let's go with > > > a WWW interface and a Java or GNUstep interface. The WWW interface will allow > > > the sysadmin to modify the server parameters without being at the console and > > > can use any OS he pleases Win98/MacOS/OS2/etc. The same could be said for Java. > > > > This is an excellent point - and I know that from my standpoint, access to > > the server from anywhere on a floor or in a building (the way I depend on > > telnet) would be a great selling point. > > > > -Dan B. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 18:24:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17311 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:24:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA17238 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:23:55 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from mustang (pm3h-18.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.115]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA24307; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:21:48 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:22:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@mustang To: Brett Taylor cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: screen shots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi all, > > Excuse me for jumping in late on this but I just bothered to subscribe. > :-) > > There was a mention of putting up screen shots for people to look at from > FBSD machines and picking and choosing. I have my own machine hanging out > here at the long end of 2 T1 lines and a moderate amount of disk space. > I'd be willing to take on the job of collecting screen shots and putting > them up so people could view them. Yeah!!!!!!!! That's what we need....people willing to do stuff and donate hardisk space for the benefit of the FreeBSD community and FreeBSD itself. I applaud your actions. Now what can I do to help? Joey Garcia > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 18:33:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18044 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:33:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18035 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:33:33 GMT (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA14323; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:33:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:33:19 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Joey Garcia cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: screen shots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Joey Garcia wrote: > Yeah!!!!!!!! That's what we need....people willing to do stuff and donate > hardisk space for the benefit of the FreeBSD community and FreeBSD itself. > I applaud your actions. Now what can I do to help? Send in your screenshot! :-) So far I have only 2... I wonder if we should send this out to -hackers or -questions too. I'd be more inclined to -hackers. -questions could bring out MILLIONS of "how do I do a screenshot again?" :-) Thoughts? I thought I'd be swamped by now. Brett ********************************************************* Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 18:44:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20098 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:44:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA20056 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:44:17 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from mustang (pm3h-18.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.115]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA27188 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:42:10 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:43:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@mustang To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Ideas and Stuff (Promoting) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, we've all talked about all sort of differnt ideas of making FreeBSD easier to use for the average user. Well, how about making FreeBSD more visible? I mean, actual promotions and stuff. We've all seen the Linux books (and boy there are tons of them), Linux magazine, and all the mentions of Linux in various articles and stuff like that. I've seen more and more FreeBSD mention in the press...that's good!! But, let's have more. :) I've been brainstorming on some new (some old) ideas on inexpensive FreeBSD promotion. Here is a few of them. T-Shirts: Get someone to come up with a FreeBSD logo to fit on the back of a t-shirt (something with the Beastie on it) then post that image on FreeBSD org for download. Users with their own t-shirt making kits can use their inkjets for making transfers in order to create their own t-shirts. Now how much more inexpensive can ya get? Only thing required would be a t-shirt and the printer t-shirt kit. Flyers: Some with the skill can make a kewl looking flyer with good information about FreeBSD printed on it and the neat FreeBSD logo with Beastie. This document can be posted for download. Those that care enough about FreeBSD can make copies (5-finger discount school supplies always work *grin*) and then can be passed out to school instructors, at Computer Conventions, etc. Clubs: More FreeBSD user groups should be created...but that's up to the users. I'd like to join one if there was one around. I don't know enough about Unix and FreeBSD to actually create my own. It would be like the blind leading the blind. hehehe Shows: Here in Los Angeles we have lot's of Computer Shows. Walnut Creek cdrom should jump in and have their own booth selling their own stuff, especially FreeBSD. Possibly have a machine there running FreeBSD and showing off all the goods. The bad thing about this is that it will cost money (not much I think)....but if Walnut Creek sells cd's and books.....then they make their money back and then some. Seems like a win-win situation. Audience: Basically we have to keep in mind who we are trying to reach. I figure we have to reach those that would benefit from using FreeBSD. I think our target audience is: Acadamia Businesses Power Users Programmers Scientists IS Professionals etc Let's find them...then make sure that FreeBSD exists and that they couldn't live without it. :) Anyways...those are some of my ideas. What cha guys think? Joey Garcia =================================================== Joseph Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net "Dont drink and drive, you might spill the beer." =================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 19:38:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28887 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:38:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA28881 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 02:38:48 GMT (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA15060 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:38:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:38:35 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: screen shots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG To get people started, here's a screenshot from my desktop right now. http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/images/screenshot2.jpg (note this is full-sized, 1280x1024 and about 280 kB) I noted that xv doesn't like if you choose the "hide xv windows" option - to get around this, put xv on another window and use a delayed autograb to give you enough time to get back to the window you want the screenshot of. ********************************************************* Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ When you wake up in the morning With the blues in your fingertips Get out that ol' guitar and play It's the only way to scratch that itch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 19:57:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29902 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:57:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.91.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA29879 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 02:56:38 GMT (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from trojanhorse.pr.watson.org (trojanhorse.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.10]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA14241; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:56:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:56:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@trojanhorse.pr.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Joey Garcia cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas and Stuff (Promoting) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm all for the misc. paraphenalia idea. I'd like to see a FreeBSD Win95 desktop theme :P. Actually, it would be nice to have a .tgz file somewhere which has FreeBSD wallpaper, various icons, a cute spinning-Beastie screen saver in 3d and so on. What would be really cool would be stickers saying "Designed for FreeBSD" to stick on computers. I've seen "Intel Inside", "Designed for Win95", "Cool! It runs Linux" or whatever. A similar Beastie-sticker saying, "Powered by FreeBSD" to stick on my notebook when going to conferences and meetings would be great. And the Win95 desktop theme is only half in jest. :) Robert N Watson ---- Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 20:03:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00724 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:03:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA00671 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 03:02:19 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from mustang (pm3h-18.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.115]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA08220; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:00:12 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:01:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@mustang To: Brett Taylor cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: screen shots In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Nice. The Cure eh? Good taste in music! heh You using OSS for FreeBSD? Nice apss running. Gimp, gv, AfterStep (what version?), Pine...not bad. What kind of machine you running? What's the stats on it? Just wondering. Joey Garcia =================================================== Joseph Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net "Dont drink and drive, you might spill the beer." =================================================== On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Brett Taylor wrote: > > To get people started, here's a screenshot from my desktop right now. > > http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/images/screenshot2.jpg > (note this is full-sized, 1280x1024 and about 280 kB) > > I noted that xv doesn't like if you choose the "hide xv windows" option - > to get around this, put xv on another window and use a delayed autograb to > give you enough time to get back to the window you want the screenshot of. > > ********************************************************* > Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu > http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ > > When you wake up in the morning > With the blues in your fingertips > Get out that ol' guitar and play > It's the only way to scratch that itch > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 20:08:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01227 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:08:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA01211 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 03:08:42 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from mustang (pm3h-18.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.115]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA09247; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:06:29 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:07:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@mustang To: Robert Watson cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas and Stuff (Promoting) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Great idea!!! heh....I wouldn't mind using a FreeBSD theme on my Win95 machine. :) And the stickers is a great idea. I too have see the "Cool it works with Linux" logo on software sites and in magazines....FreeBSD needs the same so that people will know that "Hey, this peice of software works with FreeBSD!" If they don't know what FreeBSD is, maybe it will spark their curiosity to find out. Right? The problem I see is that the stickers cost money to produce. But, they could be a neat add on to the cd's that are shipped from Walnut Creek cdrom. Right? And as far as the "Designed for FreeBSD" logo is concerned, won't the FreeBSD team have to be buddy-buddy with the software/hardware vendors? Just wondering. Anyways, I like the ideas. So when is all this gonna take place? (reffering to the stickers and logos and stuff like that?) I'd like to part of the action somehow. Joey Garcia =================================================== Joseph Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net "Dont drink and drive, you might spill the beer." =================================================== On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Robert Watson wrote: > > I'm all for the misc. paraphenalia idea. I'd like to see a FreeBSD Win95 > desktop theme :P. Actually, it would be nice to have a .tgz file > somewhere which has FreeBSD wallpaper, various icons, a cute > spinning-Beastie screen saver in 3d and so on. What would be really cool > would be stickers saying "Designed for FreeBSD" to stick on computers. > I've seen "Intel Inside", "Designed for Win95", "Cool! It runs Linux" or > whatever. A similar Beastie-sticker saying, "Powered by FreeBSD" to stick > on my notebook when going to conferences and meetings would be great. > > And the Win95 desktop theme is only half in jest. :) > > Robert N Watson > > > ---- > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ > SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 20:18:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01785 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:18:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.91.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA01777 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 03:18:46 GMT (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from trojanhorse.pr.watson.org (trojanhorse.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.10]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA15738; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:18:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:18:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@trojanhorse.pr.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Joey Garcia cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas and Stuff (Promoting) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Joey Garcia wrote: > Great idea!!! heh....I wouldn't mind using a FreeBSD theme on my Win95 > machine. :) And the stickers is a great idea. I too have see the "Cool > it works with Linux" logo on software sites and in magazines....FreeBSD > needs the same so that people will know that "Hey, this peice of software > works with FreeBSD!" If they don't know what FreeBSD is, maybe it will > spark their curiosity to find out. Right? So, my personal favorites for stickers: "Powered by FreeBSD" "Designed for FreeBSD" (this might be a Whistle exclusive? :) "Runs FreeBSD, Operating System of the Gods" The last one has a certain flair, I thought. :) > The problem I see is that the stickers cost money to produce. But, they > could be a neat add on to the cd's that are shipped from Walnut Creek > cdrom. Right? And as far as the "Designed for FreeBSD" logo is > concerned, won't the FreeBSD team have to be buddy-buddy with the > software/hardware vendors? Just wondering. Anyways, I like the ideas. I think the bundle arrangement sounds good, if only because it puts the burden of responsibility on someone else. :) I know, however, that when I order a system, I specifically order parts I know will work well with FreeBSD. In a sense, the machine is designed for FreeBSD then. It would be pretty neat to see hardware vendors sticking up a little Beastie saying, "Runs with FreeBSD" -- DPT, for example. Robert N Watson ---- Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 21:05:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA06535 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:05:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA06528 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:05:38 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrD-04.aei.ca [206.186.204.154]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA08089 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:05:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35397809.7D796AF1@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:05:29 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: A lot of idea --- Coordination Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I want to know how FreeBSD team is structured. I want to know if there is coordonator for each list who can take our Idea and make them work. It should be interesting if on FreeBSD-Advocacy or freebsd-newbies to have a person who read all message and do the coordination. We have great idea and we talk a lot, but who take dessision? So do we have coordinators and how are we structured. I have difficulty to understand. I think than we can improve the centralisation of the tasks and the way we spend our energies. Cya Malartre -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 21:35:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08721 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:35:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA08714 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:35:09 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-242.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.242]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA58314; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:34:54 GMT Message-ID: <35397ED0.57BF7C0C@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:34:24 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Malartre CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination References: <35397809.7D796AF1@aei.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Malartre wrote: > > I want to know how FreeBSD team is structured. > > I want to know if there is coordonator for each list who can take our > Idea and make them work. > What happens is we chitchat until something gells enough that we have something to ask a FreeBSD team member about. For example, this morning after we discussed screen shots, I sent a mail to John Fieber. He's in charge of web page design for the FreeBSD site. He's a student, so he may not get back to us until Monday, since his e-mail is indiana.edu, or even later, since the last two weeks were probably spring break. I decided that I'd heard that idea enough times over the last two years that it's worth pursuing. He's the one who can tell us how big they can be, where to dump them, etc., since he's the one who will build the web pages from them. Other than the FreeBSD web site or something that needs official permission from Jordan, or a 'port' that needs to be committed by an official 'committer', guess what? We're it! Pick something you want to work on, and go to it. Nobody official asked Mark Mayo to build his database of articles and academia, he just took it on himself. Ditto the tireless Greg Lehey and Doug White, who take so much of their time to make -questions work for all of us. Frank Pawlak Started to take on the task of coordination for -advocacy, but I haven't heard from him in a few days. You'll have to get used to the idea that in a democracy (almost anarchy?) like this is, some ideas get done and some don't. Pick something, work on it, and ask for help when you get stuck. Never be afraid to ask for help. Getting started is the first step to getting something done, so have at it! There's no shortage of stuff to do! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 21:41:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA09673 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:41:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA09666 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:41:34 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrD-04.aei.ca [206.186.204.154]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10138; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:41:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3539806A.DE81F09B@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:41:14 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dwilde1@ibm.net CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination References: <35397809.7D796AF1@aei.ca> <35397ED0.57BF7C0C@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > Malartre wrote: > > > > I want to know how FreeBSD team is structured. > > > > I want to know if there is coordonator for each list who can take our > > Idea and make them work. > > > What happens is we chitchat until something gells enough that we have > something to ask a FreeBSD team member about. For example, this morning > after we discussed screen shots, I sent a mail to John Fieber. He's in > charge of web page design for the FreeBSD site. He's a student, so he > may not get back to us until Monday, since his e-mail is indiana.edu, or > even later, since the last two weeks were probably spring break. I > decided that I'd heard that idea enough times over the last two years > that it's worth pursuing. He's the one who can tell us how big they can > be, where to dump them, etc., since he's the one who will build the web > pages from them. > > Other than the FreeBSD web site or something that needs official > permission from Jordan, or a 'port' that needs to be committed by an > official 'committer', guess what? We're it! Pick something you want to > work on, and go to it. Nobody official asked Mark Mayo to build his > database of articles and academia, he just took it on himself. Ditto the > tireless Greg Lehey and Doug White, who take so much of their time to > make -questions work for all of us. Frank Pawlak Started to take on the > task of coordination for -advocacy, but I haven't heard from him in a > few days. You'll have to get used to the idea that in a democracy > (almost anarchy?) like this is, some ideas get done and some don't. > > Pick something, work on it, and ask for help when you get stuck. Never > be afraid to ask for help. Getting started is the first step to getting > something done, so have at it! There's no shortage of stuff to do! Yeah, but its a system where we have to find "who to contact" Why there is no official coordinator of the effort who supervise? to much anarchy ;-) its not linux, its freebsd --- and its supposed to be centralised am I wrong? cya Malartre -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 21:45:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10333 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:45:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.91.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA10315 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:45:29 GMT (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from trojanhorse.pr.watson.org (trojanhorse.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.10]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA03176; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:45:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:45:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@trojanhorse.pr.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Malartre cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination In-Reply-To: <35397809.7D796AF1@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ok, so I think some stickers would be real cool. On the other hand, I've never had stickers made before, so there are a few immediate concerns: What should be on the sticker? Can I put the "Powered by FreeBSD" on a sticker along with Beastie and not infringe copyrights on the image? Can the FreeBSD project stick that picture on anything they want, or do I have to look into royalties? Can I just grab the one we stick up for web servers? I was thinking a sticker about 3"x1" would be a good size. Does anyone have any better thoughts? Also, how do I get them to people? I can get a bunch made, but then do people email me to have them sent? Also, I have no idea how much these cost, but will investigate. :) Robert N Watson ---- Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 21:52:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11556 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:52:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA11550 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:52:02 GMT (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA18100; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:51:51 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980419145149.00252@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:51:49 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Malartre Cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination References: <35397809.7D796AF1@aei.ca> <35397ED0.57BF7C0C@ibm.net> <3539806A.DE81F09B@aei.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <3539806A.DE81F09B@aei.ca>; from Malartre on Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 12:41:14AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 12:41:14AM -0400, Malartre wrote: > Yeah, but its a system where we have to find "who to contact" > Why there is no official coordinator of the effort who supervise? Those who coordinate burn out quickly unless they can muster up enough support to get the job done. Those who try to supervise usually get beaten over the head with a blunt object a short time after their charges lose interest. The system works pretty well :-) > to much anarchy ;-) > its not linux, its freebsd --- and its supposed to be centralised > am I wrong? That depends on what "it" is. You are FreeBSD. I am FreeBSD. I don't know about you, but I'm not very centralised :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 21:52:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11699 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:52:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA11691 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:52:49 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-242.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.242]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA49926; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:52:30 GMT Message-ID: <353982F0.DE8D3AA0@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:52:00 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson CC: Joey Garcia , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas and Stuff (Promoting) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > desktop theme :P. Actually, it would be nice to have a .tgz file > somewhere which has FreeBSD wallpaper, various icons, a cute > spinning-Beastie screen saver in 3d and so on. We've already got something that blows Winblows out of the water. X-Windows root window, what MS fools call the backdrop, is actually capable of running programs on the fly. Do the following from an Xterm: $ xscreensaver -timeout 3 & $ bubbles -3D -root & $ galaxy & You might not have enough colors in your video, but you'll get the idea. ANy of the programs that xscreensaver runs can be run in the root window or in a window, and you'll be pleasantly surprised how many things a lowly Pentium with 32MB can run. Try starting a 'top' program window, and observe what's using up CPU time and memory as you start and kill PID's. I don't think I've seen a spinning logo, but I did hear rumors of a rippling JKH... The icons and stuff already exist in the -ports collection, I'm not sure where it puts them when you install it. > ---- > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ TIS? Can you tell me what's going to happen to the availability of the fwtk code from now on? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 21:56:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11987 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:56:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA11982 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:56:53 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-242.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.242]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA29572; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 04:56:47 GMT Message-ID: <353983F2.961D9173@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:56:18 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joey Garcia CC: Robert Watson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas and Stuff (Promoting) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If you draw up a sticker and e-mail-attach it to Jordan (jkh@time.cdrom.com), maybe he will have some made up. Same goes for a brochure. I think it's a great idea, just make it big enough to cover up the W95 logo :))) Probably a TIFF file is best, any graphics printer can take it from there. Try it, at the very least you'll learn a new skill. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 22:00:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12313 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12303 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:00:35 GMT (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA18133; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:00:19 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980419150016.40549@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:00:16 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: dwilde1@ibm.net Cc: Joey Garcia , Robert Watson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas and Stuff (Promoting) References: <353983F2.961D9173@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <353983F2.961D9173@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:56:18PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:56:18PM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > If you draw up a sticker and e-mail-attach it to Jordan > (jkh@time.cdrom.com), maybe he will have some made up. Same goes for a > brochure. I think it's a great idea, just make it big enough to cover up > the W95 logo :))) Probably a TIFF file is best, any graphics printer can > take it from there. Try it, at the very least you'll learn a new skill. A while ago we had a post to -newbies which detailed all the steps that would be required if we wanted to make stickers, who to contact, what to do first, etc. Has anyone saved a copy? -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 22:08:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13620 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:08:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA13613 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:08:18 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from mustang (pm3h-18.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.115]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA29642; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:06:06 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:07:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@mustang To: Robert Watson cc: Malartre , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Robert Watson wrote: > > Also, how do I get them to people? I can get a bunch made, but then do > people email me to have them sent? Also, I have no idea how much these > cost, but will investigate. :) > > Robert N Watson > I tell ya, Computer Shows is one of the best ways to start promoting. Lot's of people go and it doesn't cost much to get in and just pass stickers around. Would be a good idea to have the FreeBSD url on the sticker. The "Powered by FreeBSD" logo is great, but find out more info on the copyright BS. :) Hell, I won't mind passing out some stickers as I go to the Shows. It would be great...I'd get to promote and look at all the hardware and software at the computer show. Best of both worlds and stuff. Would also make a good reason for me to tell the GF why I need to go to the Comp. Show. *grin* Joey Garcia > > ---- > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ > SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 22:11:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14048 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:11:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA14039 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:11:04 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-242.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.242]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA32382; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:10:44 GMT Message-ID: <35398737.A09B5956@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:10:15 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot References: <35391D64.41C67EA6@ida.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike wrote: > P.S. Does anybody else but me think that you shouldn't quote the whole > friggin' message when replying? Be kind on other people's slow links. core sure does, read the list charters. I was about to say something, TNX for speaking up! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 22:22:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15109 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:22:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA15099 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:22:50 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-242.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.242]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA45634; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:22:36 GMT Message-ID: <353989FF.A2180D1B@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:22:07 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination References: <35397809.7D796AF1@aei.ca> <35397ED0.57BF7C0C@ibm.net> <3539806A.DE81F09B@aei.ca> <19980419145149.00252@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake wrote: > That depends on what "it" is. > > You are FreeBSD. I am FreeBSD. I don't know about you, but I'm not > very centralised :-) Thanks, Sue. This discussion reminds me of the Bill-Gates-as-a-Borg T-shirt that I see in my nightmares: "You will be assimilated!" No offense, guys, but I think I'm going to shut up and go learn to do something new. :))) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 22:44:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18036 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:44:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA18030 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:44:37 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrD-04.aei.ca [206.186.204.154]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA13511; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:44:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35398F2C.BC7802B8@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:44:12 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Robert Watson CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Why not selling the stickers on freebsd.org and take the profit for the organisation? Like selling each 1 or 3 $ or more. Its more a contribution than just a sticker ;-) I buy some ;-) Malartre Robert Watson wrote: > Ok, so I think some stickers would be real cool. On the other hand, I've > never had stickers made before, so there are a few immediate concerns: > > What should be on the sticker? Can I put the "Powered by FreeBSD" on a > sticker along with Beastie and not infringe copyrights on the image? Can > the FreeBSD project stick that picture on anything they want, or do I have > to look into royalties? Can I just grab the one we stick up for web > servers? > > I was thinking a sticker about 3"x1" would be a good size. Does anyone > have any better thoughts? > > Also, how do I get them to people? I can get a bunch made, but then do > people email me to have them sent? Also, I have no idea how much these > cost, but will investigate. :) > > Robert N Watson > > ---- > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ > SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- --------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5-RELEASE --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 22:57:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19575 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:57:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fledge.watson.org (root@FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.91.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19568 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:57:17 GMT (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from trojanhorse.pr.watson.org (trojanhorse.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.10]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA05520; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:57:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:57:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@trojanhorse.pr.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Malartre cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination In-Reply-To: <35398F2C.BC7802B8@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > Why not selling the stickers on freebsd.org and take the profit for the > organisation? > Like selling each 1 or 3 $ > > or more. Its more a contribution than just a sticker ;-) FreeBSD the Bumper Sticker: +-----------------------------------------------+ | P o w e r e d B y F r e e B S D / \ | | Chuck | | (just kidding) \ here/ | +-----------------------------------------------+ Robert N Watson ---- Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ Trusted Information Systems http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 18 23:20:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22337 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:20:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA22332 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 06:20:20 GMT (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA11885; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:19:59 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:19:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" Reply-To: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Sue Blake cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas and Stuff (Promoting) In-Reply-To: <19980419150016.40549@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:56:18PM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > > If you draw up a sticker and e-mail-attach it to Jordan > > (jkh@time.cdrom.com), maybe he will have some made up. Same goes for a > > brochure. I think it's a great idea, just make it big enough to cover up > > the W95 logo :))) Probably a TIFF file is best, any graphics printer can > > take it from there. Try it, at the very least you'll learn a new skill. > > A while ago we had a post to -newbies which detailed all the steps that > would be required if we wanted to make stickers, who to contact, what to do > first, etc. Has anyone saved a copy? Scarily enough, yes... Thus says the crazy person who never deletes email, and has archives sitting in his home directory of -questions, -hackers, -stable, -bugs, and -security for the better part of a year, -newbies since it's inception, and a few other random lists for various periods... calculating the size of this will be left as an exercise for the reader (mainly because I don't have enough toes). I put the above message at: http://www.futuresouth.com/~fullermd/freebsd/sticker.txt because it's a bit long to re-email. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message