From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 03:05:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA29001 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 03:05:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from garius.magnet.at (garius.magnet.at [195.170.70.72]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28988 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:05:33 GMT (envelope-from k.joch@kmjeuro.com) Received: from ws01 (LRP02PORT13.highway.telekom.at [195.3.79.77]) by garius.magnet.at (8.8.8/8.8.8/magnet) with SMTP id MAA21277 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:05:22 +0200 (MET DST) From: "Karl M. Joch" To: Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:05:14 +0100 Message-ID: <01bd6b83$07a7fee0$0100007f@ws01> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG one more thought. i think th reality is far away of our discussion. to enhance the installed base FreeBSD needs the "normal" market. this means small comapnies (80% in the whole world are small). but they need. - 1 or 2 servers - 3 - 20 workstations - no neccecary of sysop/sysadmin - easy setup and stable running system FreeBSD have a lot of advantages against the M$ products. let me create a standard installation: - workstation: pentium PC with word processcing, spredsheat, internet browser, email (í had to learn that most of the "normal users" are not able or WILLING to handle more). - server - internet connection with dialup (leased is expensive here in europe). so you need a pop client serving the mails from the ISP accounts to local mail server. - a few GB harddisk space for the users. - a small fax server program. - comercial software for their dialy work so no need of Tcl (or whatever). it would make sence to have an auto setup system for a workstation: - standard FreeBSD system with: - all neccecary componets (the ideas about neccecary will differ i am sure) - X-Windows with a few selected components - Word Procession, Spreadsheet, Email and Browser Software. ánd inform the people about the advantages of FreeBSD. the same thing would be neccecary for a sérver system. think about the advatages of a FreeBSD Server in a Network: - included Software for Internet, Mail, Pop, Windows Connection using Samba and so much more. i personally think that this are the points the users wants to here. they don´t care about Tcl, GUI, aso..... REMEMBER: the user was happy with a DOS based system in text mode till somebody comes and told him YOU NEED A GUI ! karl m. joch >On 18 Apr, Don Wilde wrote: >> Edwin Culp wrote: >>> >>> Time to put on my flame proof suit. I can't wait any more. What is >>> wrong >>> with comming up with a vga xwindows and a simple mozilla as a >>> configuration >>> front end for configuration. This is the front end that more than maybe >>> 80 Million people are using. Doesn't this tell us something? How many >>> people are using Tcl/Tk or any other option? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 06:42:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21510 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 06:42:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA21468; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 06:42:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199804191342.GAA21468@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: screen shots In-Reply-To: from Joey Garcia at "Apr 18, 98 08:01:20 pm" To: bear@pacificnet.net (Joey Garcia) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 06:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Cc: brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joey Garcia wrote: > Nice. The Cure eh? Good taste in music! heh You using OSS for FreeBSD? > Nice apss running. Gimp, gv, AfterStep (what version?), Pine...not bad. > What kind of machine you running? What's the stats on it? Just wondering. > whats the html tool? jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 07:05:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23863 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 07:05:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mexcom.net (ver2-71.uninet.net.mx [200.38.135.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA23807 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:04:22 GMT (envelope-from eculp@ver1.telmex.net.mx) Received: from mc.mexcom.net (telmex@ppp-5.mexcom.net [206.103.65.197]) by ns.mexcom.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA02636 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:01:35 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3539F70A.386A550A@ver1.telmex.net.mx> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:07:22 -0500 From: Edwin Culp Organization: Mexico Communicates, S.A. de C.V. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.18 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... References: <35390C79.13956D1B@ver1.telmex.net.mx> <35390E3D.CE6B786F@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > > Edwin Culp wrote: > > > > Time to put on my flame proof suit. I can't wait any more. What is > > wrong > > with comming up with a vga xwindows and a simple mozilla as a > > configuration > > front end for configuration. This is the front end that more than maybe > > 80 Million people are using. Doesn't this tell us something? How many > > people are using Tcl/Tk or any other option? > > Well, actually, I sorta had something like that in the back of my mind, > but you have to have the Apache AND the Mozilla AND the poisonous CGI script language> loaded to go there. I don't see the CGI script language as a problem. It would probably be better to only use one as we normally use C but we have C++, perl, awk, sh, etc happily coexisting as I assume most everyone else has. I see this as the real marketing oportunity. Your machine comes up with the familiar Netscape in a windows environment that isn't too different "cosmetically" from what they are used to. ed To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 08:26:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02273 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:26:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gmxlx2.gmx.net (qmailr@gmxlx2.gmx.net [194.97.64.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA02256 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:26:32 GMT (envelope-from sirabyss@gmx.net) Message-Id: <199804191526.PAA02256@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 22067 invoked from network); 19 Apr 1998 15:26:29 -0000 Received: from port-090.herrenberg.netsurf.de (HELO danielh) (194.163.121.90) by gmxlx2.gmx.net with SMTP; 19 Apr 1998 15:26:29 -0000 X-Sender: danielh@mail.herrenberg.netsurf.de X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:27:35 +0200 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Daniel Haischt Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG HI MAYBE THIS IS OFF-TOPIC, BUT I'LL DO IT ANYWAY.... I want to start a discussion about FreeBSD and LINUX, cause I had somethimes that incredible feeling that both OS are something like rivals. (I had some awesome discussion about that with some friends ;-) Any ideas? What are the differences between these OS? And if there are difference which one do u prefere (FreeBSD or LINUX)? Any sugestions why there is something like a competition between these two OS (I think both have their roots in UNIX, so they have to be bros and no rivals) Note: Just be productive, not emotional, what I really want is a discussion with constructive ideas and no garbage. LET UR THOUGHTS FLOW!!!! BYE, Daniel Haischt aka CyberOdin ====================================================== Dedicated to DIABLO I & the upcoming DIABLO II? Visit: http://www.abyssworld.org for more infos... ====================================================== contacts: phone: +49 7032-992910                  (yea thats Germany and costs u                  a lot if u call from outside)            Mail: sirabyss@gmx.net                  cyberodin@abyssworld.org             ICQ: 7311831            DING: whodp://ding.activerse.com/LordAbyss To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 08:56:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07013 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:56:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06989; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:56:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199804191556.IAA06989@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199804191526.PAA02256@hub.freebsd.org> from Daniel Haischt at "Apr 19, 98 05:27:35 pm" To: sirabyss@gmx.net (Daniel Haischt) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daniel Haischt wrote: > HI > > MAYBE THIS IS OFF-TOPIC, BUT I'LL DO IT ANYWAY.... > > I want to start a discussion about FreeBSD and LINUX, cause I had somethimes that incredible feeling that both OS are something like rivals. > (I had some awesome discussion about that with some friends ;-) DANGER WILL ROBINSON! this may, does not have to but may, degenerate quickly into a cat-scratching, mud-slinging, name-calling flamefest. that is not the purpose of any of the FreeBSD lists. the lists exist solely to benefit the FreeBSD community. anyone or any list that endangers that community, look out! comparisons are fine, but keep it significantly more civil than your local congress critter does. jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Core Team, Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--The Power to Serve JMB193 http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 09:26:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10166 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:26:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA10084 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:26:06 GMT (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from radan.demon.co.uk ([158.152.75.22]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa1028476; 19 Apr 98 16:13 GMT Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id RAA03122; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:13:14 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA29362; Sun, 19 Apr 98 17:13:08 BST Message-Id: <353A2293.93444641@uk.radan.com> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 17:13:07 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ideas and Stuff (Promoting) References: <353983F2.961D9173@ibm.net> <19980419150016.40549@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake wrote: > > A while ago we had a post to -newbies which detailed all the steps that > would be required if we wanted to make stickers, who to contact, what to do > first, etc. Has anyone saved a copy? > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > find / -name "*.conf" |more Yes, see below: > Hi, my name's Nik and I. . . . . . use FreeBSD. > > I suppose by some people's reckoning I'm a bit of an old hand, since I've > been using it since the beginning of 1995. That still makes me pretty > new to it when compared with some folk though, and doesn't mean I don't > ask the occasional stupid question either . > > I'm interested in trying to make FreeBSD more accessible to the new user > and improving the documentation set, which is the main reason I'm reading > this mailing list. > > I also try and answer questions (where I can) on -questions and -hackers, > and I reckon this list will give me a handy insight in what people new to > FreeBSD are running in to. > > With a bit of luck I'll be able to offer some advice (if it's wanted) on > the best way to find out answers to questions without needing to resort to > the mailing lists, and pick up some advice from everyone else on the list > on how to help make the documentation more useful. > > Anyway, with that out of the way; > > On Tue, Mar 24, 1998 at 10:00:00PM -0600, anthony@sohopros.com wrote: > > Dose anyone know if there is such thing as a FreeBSD > > sticker? If so where can I get one? I would like to > > have one to stick on my car. I'm not kidding I would > > like to have one. > > This comes up every now and then on the mailing lists, and normally, not > a lot gets done about it. A notable exception was (I think) Jo"erg Wunsch, > who liased with a factory in Germany to get some soft toys made (I don't > know if they're still in production, searching the mailing list archives > (on the FreeBSD web site) for the words "daemon" and "plushie" should > turn up something). > > Anyway, if anyone's interested in doing this, here's one way to do it > (based on experience with other people doing similar things). > > - First: be prepared to do this because you want to do it, not because > you think you might make a bit of money from it. It's a long, often > thankless task, and at the end of it you'll be wishing you never see > another sticker (or stamp) in your life. > > Expect the whole thing (from start to finish) to take maybe three > or four months. > > - Get someone who can do the artwork. Either a volunteer from the > mailing list(s) and/or newsgroups, or a friend, or whatever. > > - Hold an informal discussion about the artwork. Solicit suggestions > for what people want on it. > > - Get the artwork done. If you're really flash you'll get a couple of > alternatives done that people can vote for. > > - Get the artwork to Marshall Kirk McKusick > who owns the copyright on the daemon picture. Ask for his approval. > > It might be worth looking at > > - Put together an announcement saying "We've got the artwork, we want > to know how many people would be interested in this, and how much > they want to pay". Mail it to -core and ask someone to send it to > the -announce mailing list and newsgroup. > > At the same time, ask Jordan (jkh@freebsd.org) whether Walnut Creek > would be interested in handling the processing of payments for this > thing. > > You do the announcement at this step rather than at the beginning so > that people (a) have some artwork to see, so they know what they're > getting, (b) also see that some of the work's been done, so this may > actually happen, unlike the other attempts. > > Be prepared to get lots of questions from people about this. Be > prepared to put together a small FAQ about the process, and ask > that this be included somewhere on the FreeBSD site so you can point > people to it. > > - You've now got an idea of how many people will go for this. You may > now decide to not go any further, if the response is too low. > > Alternatively, there are lots of responses. This is good. > > - Put together another announcement, saying that due to the overwhelming > response, the stickers will be produced. You would appreciate people > coming forward if (a) they happen to have contacts for sticker > printing businesses in their country, (b) they're willing to handle > the remailing for all the people that want stickers in their country > (because it's easier to send one parcel containing lots of stickers > to remail in one country than it is to send lots of small parcels to > the same country. It's cheaper too. > > - Find one or more sticker printing companies. Get quotes. Find out > about deals when ordering in bulk, that sort of thing. Get the > lead time from the printing company, so you know how long to warn > people to wait for. > > - Work out how much to sell the stickers for. People tend to get > antsy if these things aren't done at cost. I'd suggest the > volunteer be prepared to open a separate bank account, and make > available some accounts (nothing fancy, but something that shows > "I had this much cash sent to me, I spent this much, the balance > is 0". Work out how you want people to get the money to you. > > - Post yet another message, outlining the costs, and ways to pay. > Explain that it's not being done for profit. State that any money > left over (perhaps the printing company suddenly offers an extra > discount or something) will be sent to the FreeBSD project. > > I suggest that the announcement includes a cut-off date and a > minimum order. Explain that the first batch of stickers will not > be produced until one week after the cut-off date (to allow > time for the money to come in) and that if the total number of > stickers ordered is below 'x' then it's uneconomic to do it > and people's money will be returned to them. > > - Wait for the money to roll in. Make damn sure you keep track of > everyone's name and address, the amount they paid and so on. > > - Order the stickers. Keep people informed of how they're doing. > Promptly explain any delays that happen in the printing process > (or whatever). > > - Make sure they're mailed out ASAP. > > - Bask in the adulation you receive when folks get their stickers. > > That about covers it. Simple huh :-) ? > > It might be worth doing a web search for "Joel Furr". He used to do > this kind of thing four or five years ago with coffee mugs and t-shirts > (things like "The Internet is full, go away" slogans and the like). He > used to have a web page that outlined his experiences with the whole > thing, but I don't know if it's still around. > > Hope that's useful. > > N > -- > Work: nik@iii.co.uk | FreeBSD + Perl + Apache > Rest: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk | Remind me again why we need > Play: nik@freebsd.org | Microsoft? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 11:04:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04113 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA04006 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:04:00 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrE-07.aei.ca [206.186.204.207]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA09356; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:03:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353A3C54.C5DFA262@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:03:01 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Karl M. Joch" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... References: <01bd6b83$07a7fee0$0100007f@ws01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > i personally think that this are the points the users wants to here. they > don´t care about Tcl, GUI, aso..... REMEMBER: the user was happy with a DOS > based system in text mode till somebody comes and told him YOU NEED A GUI ! > > karl m. joch I agree. And its funny the YOU NEED A GUI because someone explained me an interesting thing: Bill Gates his a criminel in some way: He do Pyramidal fraud Pyramidal because he is at the top. He search some people and sell them Win95: its a beautifull OS. After buying Win95, the people ar disapointed: it doesn't work. But they dont want to loose the investment. So they sell it to other people and spread the good news "Win95 will rulez the world, so buy it". At the base of the pyramid are the little user who do net after the job.. And its them who pay the cost of it. its a little bit to much simple but ;-) I'm sure microsoft do more money with Office. what do you think? Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 11:07:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05442 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:07:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05366; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:07:25 GMT (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA17401; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:07:04 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:07:03 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: Joey Garcia , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: screen shots In-Reply-To: <199804191342.GAA21468@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Joey Garcia wrote: > > Nice. The Cure eh? Good taste in music! heh You using OSS for FreeBSD? > > Nice apss running. Gimp, gv, AfterStep (what version?), Pine...not bad. > > What kind of machine you running? What's the stats on it? Just wondering. > whats the html tool? I'm not using OSS, just the standard sound stuff from 2.2-STABLE. The cd player is xmcd (from the package). gv has one of my papers that's in review right now. The HTML editor is asWedit (a port - /usr/ports/www/aswedit - I even submitted that one!). This is AS-1.0 - I will eventually get screenshots from my home machine of AS-1.4.4, a port I'm about to submit. The machine itself is a PPro 200, 48 MB ram, 2 G Barracuda disk, I'm running 2.2-STABLE, with the last make world April 2nd. I'm connected to the internet thru 2 T1's here at work. The machine is my personal machine and I do most of my numerical work for my thesis. In fact most of the people in my group use it rather than my advisor's work station because it's faster than the work station (a moderately old HP). In any case, if you want to know more email me directly. We don't want to bore the list. :-) Brett ********************************************************* Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 11:35:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12839 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:35:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12738 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:34:55 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrE-07.aei.ca [206.186.204.207]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12056; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353A43B4.70CC2B0B@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:34:29 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Haischt CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: References: <199804191526.PAA02256@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hehehehehe Daniel Haischt wrote: > HI > > MAYBE THIS IS OFF-TOPIC, BUT I'LL DO IT ANYWAY.... > > I want to start a discussion about FreeBSD and LINUX, cause I had somethimes that incredible feeling that both OS are something like rivals. > (I had some awesome discussion about that with some friends ;-) > > Any ideas? What are the differences between these OS? And if there are difference which one do u prefere (FreeBSD or LINUX)? Any sugestions why there is something like a competition between these two OS (I think both have their roots in UNIX, so they have to be bros and no rivals) > > Note: Just be productive, not emotional, what I really want is a discussion with constructive ideas and no garbage. > > LET UR THOUGHTS FLOW!!!! > > BYE, Daniel Haischt aka CyberOdin Hehehehe I think its a steril discution, but anyway. I have seen a FAQ about the "Linux or FreeBSD", but the link is now lost :-/ My explanation of that is: FreeBSD is more for Server and avanced user than linux. Its more stable but there is no driver for all. Its comparable in some way to WinNT (specialised) Linux is for user and "I want to crack a server or you". Its more unstable, but cutting edge. There is driver for all. Its comparable in some way to Win95 (you have a lot of apps) All I have say is based on some FAQ and on reading. I'm not a specialist so I can be wrong. Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 11:58:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18551 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:58:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA18472 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 18:58:18 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrE-07.aei.ca [206.186.204.207]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14433; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:58:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353A4936.47CE74D@aei.ca> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:57:58 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Daniel Haischt CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: References: <199804191526.PAA02256@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.netgsi.com/~cjohnson/#report Daniel Haischt wrote: > HI > > MAYBE THIS IS OFF-TOPIC, BUT I'LL DO IT ANYWAY.... > > I want to start a discussion about FreeBSD and LINUX, cause I had somethimes that incredible feeling that both OS are something like rivals. > (I had some awesome discussion about that with some friends ;-) > > Any ideas? What are the differences between these OS? And if there are difference which one do u prefere (FreeBSD or LINUX)? Any sugestions why there is something like a competition between these two OS (I think both have their roots in UNIX, so they have to be bros and no rivals) > > Note: Just be productive, not emotional, what I really want is a discussion with constructive ideas and no garbage. > > LET UR THOUGHTS FLOW!!!! > > BYE, Daniel Haischt aka CyberOdin > ====================================================== > Dedicated to DIABLO I & the upcoming DIABLO II? > Visit: http://www.abyssworld.org for more infos... > ====================================================== > contacts: phone: +49 7032-992910 > (yea thats Germany and costs u > a lot if u call from outside) > Mail: sirabyss@gmx.net > cyberodin@abyssworld.org > ICQ: 7311831 > DING: whodp://ding.activerse.com/LordAbyss > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 12:28:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23285 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:28:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23039; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:26:39 GMT (envelope-from nkauer@students.wisc.edu) Received: from [128.104.222.29] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id OAA19514 (8.8.6/50); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:26:25 -0500 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:31:47 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD6B9F.E2760780.nkauer@students.wisc.edu> From: Nikolas Kauer To: "'Daniel Haischt'" , "'Jonathan M. Bresler'" , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Differentiating FreeBSD from Linux Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:31:46 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi all, I would like to second the call for more discussion on promoting FreeBSD relative to Linux. I learned UNIX from scratch on a FreeBSD system and am thankful for this rewarding experience. I went with FreeBSD rather than Linux after reading several encouraging articles in a computer magazine (c't). Ever since I tried to learn more about the difference between FreeBSD and Linux. "The Complete FreeBSD" by Greg Lehey refers to Linux in two sentences (p. 3 binary compatibility, p. 68 FIPS, 1st ed.). A small number of questions in the mailing lists gave hardly more information, except what everybody knows anyway (like Berkley BSD heritage, core team structure, reportedly very stable, but much more commercial software for Linux, almost binary compatible). Many people I talked to, being more familiar with commercial UNIXes like OSF and HP-UX, didn't see a difference at all. Being a scientist, I always looked for something like a facts/specs sheet comparing Linux and FreeBSD. In my impression--and you are welcome to correct me--so far, FreeBSD is mostly perceived as "the alternative" free UNIX OS for PCs (no specific features attached). Last but not least, this is also the impression the "Walnut Creek CDROM Fall 1997-98 Catalog" gives. I think it would help the FreeBSD project to differentiate more from Linux. FreeBSD has a strong, self-confident community, with no reason to be afraid of an open comparison with Linux. I also agree with Jonathan: propaganda-style mud-slinging doesn't help both, FreeBSD and Linux, in gaining ground relative to the Wintel behemoth. PS I'd get a couple of stickers, great idea. --------------------------------------- Nikolas Kauer, kauer@pheno.physics.wisc.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 13:40:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07498 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:40:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07392; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 20:39:53 GMT (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA03877; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:39:40 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:39:40 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: Daniel Haischt , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199804191556.IAA06989@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Daniel Haischt wrote: > > HI > > > > MAYBE THIS IS OFF-TOPIC, BUT I'LL DO IT ANYWAY.... > > > > I want to start a discussion about FreeBSD and LINUX, cause I had somethimes that incredible feeling that both OS are something like rivals. > > (I had some awesome discussion about that with some friends ;-) > > DANGER WILL ROBINSON! > > this may, does not have to but may, degenerate quickly into > a cat-scratching, mud-slinging, name-calling flamefest. > > that is not the purpose of any of the FreeBSD lists. > the lists exist solely to benefit the FreeBSD community. He.... Maybe we need a freebsd-flamefest@freebsd.org list.... Anyway, take a look at http://www.futuresouth.com/~fullermd/freebsd/bsdvlin.html At some point, I'm going to go on a web spree and make it look better, but there's info there, at any rate. > jmb > -- > Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Core Team, Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG > FreeBSD--The Power to Serve JMB193 http://www.freebsd.org/ > PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 16:03:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01331 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:03:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA01269 for ; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:03:47 GMT (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA20901; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:03:42 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980420090340.11400@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:03:40 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: conversion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here's an article on three approaches to moving individual M$ users over to Linux, and their consequences. Interesting even if you don't agree with the conclusions. It applies equally to FreeBSD. http://www.linuxgazette.com/issue27/wagle.html -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 19:17:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10817 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:17:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA10776 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 02:17:34 GMT (envelope-from nkauer@students.wisc.edu) Received: from [128.104.222.29] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id VAA12328 (8.8.6/50); Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:17:30 -0500 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:22:53 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD6BD9.50370420.nkauer@students.wisc.edu> From: Nikolas Kauer To: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: RE: FreeBSD and Linux Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:22:52 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >From http://www.futuresouth.com/~fullermd/freebsd/bsd/bsdvlinux.14 I infer that the second edition of "The Complete FreeBSD" by Greg Lehey has a paragraph about FreeBSD vs. Linux. (My apologies.) Why is this issue so taboo? (Greg: "That's a hot potato. A lot of people get fanatical about the question. Still, I've just had to write this up for the new edition of 'The Complete FreeBSD', so here goes [...]") Being able to run Linux binaries on FreeBSD helps a lot (having commercial programs in mind). However, for programmers that want/have to use commercial (Linux-) compilers in addition to the free GNU compilers, it doesn't suffice. I guess, I end up running FreeBSD (which I love) and Red Hat (which I need?) on my box, which may not be too bad :) PS I'm aware of the port devel/linux_devel. But, honestly, compiling and running my own Linux binaries with the help of a substantial amount of Linux binaries and libraries in FreeBSD's Linux compatibility mode seems somewhat ridiculous to me. (No offense. It's great that I probably *could* do it after all.) --------------------------------------- Nikolas Kauer, kauer@pheno.physics.wisc.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Apr 19 19:55:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20568 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:55:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA20448 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 02:54:43 GMT (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA21604; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:54:29 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980420125425.54110@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:54:25 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Nikolas Kauer Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Linux References: <01BD6BD9.50370420.nkauer@students.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <01BD6BD9.50370420.nkauer@students.wisc.edu>; from Nikolas Kauer on Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:22:52PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:22:52PM -0500, Nikolas Kauer wrote: > >From http://www.futuresouth.com/~fullermd/freebsd/bsd/bsdvlinux.14 I > infer that the second edition of "The Complete FreeBSD" by Greg Lehey > has a paragraph about FreeBSD vs. Linux. Almost two pages, actually. > (My apologies.) Why is this issue so taboo? Not so much taboo, just that it generates long yawnful threads that many of us have waded through a few too many times. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 03:08:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22535 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 03:08:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA22526 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:08:43 GMT (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04761 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:04:32 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <353B1DB3.EBCFB1F3@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:04:35 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... References: <35376970.24006442@ibm.net> <35379447.AAE9A501@internationalschool.co.uk> <35381281.933B81EA@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > > > > need to do is to make our script tools complete and orthogonal. > > > For example, aduser does all you want with adding, but where is > > > rmuser? > > > > /usr/sbin > > See, somebody around here's thinking. I started with a 2.0.5 system > set up by somebody else, and it wasn't there then. ;) heheh... only thing is, it's not there in sysinstall next to the 'add a user' command, which is probably where most new users would look for it. Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 03:32:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA24971 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 03:32:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24953 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:32:12 GMT (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05463 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:26:03 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <353B22BF.87236B9D@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:26:07 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Irving Popovetsky wrote: > > Some of the most impressive screenshots that I have personally seen > have been on the webpages of various Window Managers: There's a few at http://www.cdrom.com/titles/os/fbsd26.htm as well, a pity they're only on that page and not the ones including page with the Complete FreeBSD though... Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 03:39:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA25581 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 03:39:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m1.gdr.net.au (root@dub055.pronet.net.au [203.34.103.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA25576 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:39:36 GMT (envelope-from freebsd@pronet.net.au) Received: from right.gdr.net.au (funguys@right.gdr.net.au [192.168.0.2]) by m1.gdr.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA05442 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:42:16 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980420201543.007e9500@m1.gdr.net.au> X-Sender: right@m1.gdr.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:15:43 +1000 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: phil grainger Subject: my two-cents worth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id KAA25577 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hi, It's been on my mind a bit lately so I thought i would drop a line and see what happens. Hope i'm not going over old ground. When i was at uni studying marketing the talked a lot about alternative ways to satisfy "demand". Part of the marketing process is making customers aware of the existence alternative products, which is part of freebsd's problem, I have spoken to some people who thought freeBSD was a version of linux, however most people have never heard of it, watching people's eye's glaze over as you tell them it emulates linux better than linux. Promoting FreeBSD to the level where a lot of people are aware of it, could be very expensive ... Many times, when i have tried selling freeBSD to small organizations, they say that they would prefer to go for a better known operating system. They would prefer to run, what is basically a mediocre games platform, over freeBSD. Don't kid yourselves, NT is sold by the best marketing organization in the computer world. Competing with micro$oft is also pretty dangerous, just ask word perfect, novell, borland etc. I have to admit i choke a little everytime i see a certain operating system sold as part of a bundle to a local ISP for inexcess of $100k, and they end up replacing it with linux 6 months later. So, perhaps the alternative way to get FreeBSD recognized is through education, promoting freeBSD to university computer science departments, at my local university computer science department there is a lot of support for linux, basically because its free, in a theoretical environment, quality is usually very subjective ... Alternatively, there needs to be some organization involved in the actual commercially supplying and installing freebsd systems. Perhaps developing a CERTIFIED FREEBSD NETWORK ENGINEER type certificate/quasi-qualification, this could be bundled with the freebsd distribution. The stigma associated with free operating systems is really compounded by the poor performance of commercial alternatives. And the inability of "ordinary people" to find easily accessible support for freebsd, really rules it out a lot of the time, and the inability to determine the fitness of a consultant. It would certainly help my cause personally, to have some way of explaining to people that i can use a non-gui operating system. This could be linked to ... An ASSOCIATION OF FREEBSD CONSULTANTS, this would certainly improve freeBSD's viability in the corporate world, being able to supply 24hour a day, 6-7 days a week internet support for freeBSD systems by a group of certified freeBSD system admins could certainly give freeBSD the edge, in marketing. All this really requires is some standardization in how exactly you setup a freebsd box, and how you fix it if it dies. I'm sure this organization could also fund/promote the development of more freeBSD freeware/shareware. The lack of "commercial support" is/could be freeBSD's Achilles heel in the long term, what are we/us/you going to do if freebsd lost walnut creek's support? freeBSD.com versus freeBSD.org? As far as promoting FreeBSD to the "end-user" market, that would require something like redhat, a commercial orgainsation, where you buy a commercial distribution/limited support package or download it without any support. Just spend a few hours in #linux and workout where you want freeBSD to go. Personally, if FreeBSD is seen as an elitist operating system, that's fine as long as it stays rock stable and as bullet proof as it has been for me and everyone who uses it. If anyone in australia is interested in forming an australian freebsd cosultants assocation, i would be prepared to support it with some personal effort both financially and in an organisational effort, if you volunteer the same. if you think this may interest to someone you know, please feel free to forward it on, thanks for reading this far, phil grainger ô¿ô To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 06:11:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA16466 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 06:11:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hobbes.crc.com (hobbes.crc.com [192.251.235.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA16397 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:11:26 GMT (envelope-from dpb@mail.hqs.crc.com) Received: from moses.hqs.crc.com(really [192.146.211.111]) by hobbes.crc.com via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:11:20 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #4 built 1997-Mar-21) Received: from mail.hqs.crc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moses.hqs.crc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00357; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:11:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dpb@mail.hqs.crc.com) Message-ID: <353B4982.91FF85FD@mail.hqs.crc.com> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:11:30 -0400 From: Dan Benjamin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Edwin Culp CC: Stefanos Kiakas , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... References: <35390C79.13956D1B@ver1.telmex.net.mx> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Edwin Culp wrote: > > Time to put on my flame proof suit. I can't wait any more. What is > wrong > with comming up with a vga xwindows and a simple mozilla as a > configuration > front end for configuration. This is the front end that more than maybe > 80 Million people are using. Doesn't this tell us something? How many > people are using Tcl/Tk or any other option? No flames here. Honestly, I couldn't agree more. If we want to increase a user base, what better way to grab users than by giving them something that's either the same as or similar to what they're used to? At any rate, a front end with a small learning curve - even if it's limited in functionality to a degree would be better than the somewhat daunting (to those new to unix, perhaps) set of command line utilities available to the seasoned admin. RTemember, it's all how we approach this ... If we push anything too hard, people will reject it. I'd rather see a simple interface catering to the new/casual user. We may choose to reject it, but having it for those that might need it would be nice. -Dan B. -- d-i-s-c-l-a-i-m-e-r ------------------------------------------ The views and opinions in this message are mine, and not intended to represent those of my previous or present employers. Cheers! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 06:36:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19901 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 06:36:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hobbes.crc.com (hobbes.crc.com [192.251.235.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA19866 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:35:51 GMT (envelope-from dpb@mail.hqs.crc.com) Received: from moses.hqs.crc.com(really [192.146.211.111]) by hobbes.crc.com via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:35:48 -0400 (EDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #4 built 1997-Mar-21) Received: from mail.hqs.crc.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moses.hqs.crc.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA00447 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:36:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from dpb@mail.hqs.crc.com) Message-ID: <353B4F44.2A6D0257@mail.hqs.crc.com> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:36:04 -0400 From: Dan Benjamin X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: screen shots References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG All, I offer this, a screenshot of my desktop. I don't usually have this much ruinning in one screen, but it sure does look nice ;-) http://www.ten26.com/~dan/images/desktop.gif Most of what I've got there is self-explanatory. -Dan B. -- d-i-s-c-l-a-i-m-e-r ------------------------------------------ The views and opinions in this message are mine, and not intended to represent those of my previous or present employers. Cheers! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 07:42:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA02324 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 07:42:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA02065 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:41:10 GMT (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from ares.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa07393; 20 Apr 98 10:40 EDT Received: from mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.67.12]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA25210; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:40:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (atf3r@localhost) by mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26702; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:40:33 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU: atf3r owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:40:33 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Sue Blake cc: Malartre , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot In-Reply-To: <19980419054936.41342@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 03:22:29PM -0400, Adrian T. Filipi-Martin wrote: > > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > > > Hey, I have seen a lot of people who where wanting screen shot. > > > Why not giving them the screen shot on www.freebsd.org? > > > > > > Like a link on the first page to "what freebsd look like" > > > > > > Unix seems strange to new user... > > > > Well, I doubt a single screen shot coulw convey much of anything. > > There are just too many things that could be on a FreeBSD display. What > > would it be: X, emacs, the console, quake2, etc.? > > OK, what do you suggest? A number of different screen shots? Show variety? I only consider screenshots to be useful for application software. A group of screenshots depicting popular applications running under FreeBSD would be useful to some extend. Perhaps, we set the background to the "powered by FreeBSD" logo. Pictures of FreeBSD systems in situ are pretty good however in my book. For example the Snarnoff lab picture of a cluster of 16 FreeBSD boxes displaying an image accross 16 monitors and a description of what you are looking at tells much more of what FreeBSD is capable of. Honestly, I expect most technical people to look at the bulleted lists of features and applicaton vendor logs more than the pictures. If we are talking of non-technical people then we need the pictures of FreeBSD with a slick window manager and StarOffice and Oracle development windows open. As an example of the flexibility of the unix solutions you can show FreeBSD running various look-a-like environments like fvwm95. (Not that I like this approach or anything. I actually dislike fvwm95.) > > I suppose one rather impressive image involving FreeBSD is the > > Toshiba Libretto picture from the PAO project page. I just love that the > > X11 is runnig on FreeBSD o a computer that is not as deep as the SUN mouse > > next to it. > > That wouldn't have meant a thing to me when I started. > You're almost saying it is better to have no idea than to have the wrong idea. Maybe my description wouldn't have meant anything, but the picture is rather striking. Take alook: http://www.jp.FreeBSD.org/PAO/ Whne you see that FreeBSD can fit into any box from shirt pocket sized to clustered rack mount, you begin to see the scalablility and flexibility that is available. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 15:20:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08901 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:20:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08848 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:20:23 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id PAA17734 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:20:20 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id PAA11553 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:20:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:19:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Should we approach Redhat, Debian et al. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Let me say that I am against the "FreeBSD Inc" organization going commercial. Much discussion has been made about what I feel is a semi-commercializing process with respect to FreeBSD. This I do not like. In the interest of advocacy, the point has been raised that business won't use free software because "Free=not there when you need it." To attract more businesses to FreeBSD someone needs to be "there when you need it." Which brings me to my point. The FreeBSD Inc organization might consider soliciting Caldera, SuSE, Redhat, et al to produce a commercically supported version of FreeBSD. Advantages: Wider distribution. Commercial support to entice businesses. A spot next to Linux on university store bookshelves. The first commercial adopter can increase its offerings to customers and get an advantage on other Linux resellers. Commercial adopters already have UNIX expertise. Disadvantages: Funds being diverted to competitors from loss of Walnut Creek sales. Maybe some loss of control over releases I think there may be a net gain to be had by this proposal. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 15:47:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15602 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:47:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dns.mail.ida.net (mail.ida.net [204.228.203.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA15205 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:45:53 GMT (envelope-from muck@ida.net) Received: from falcon.hinterlands.com (tc-pt1-31.ida.net [208.141.181.40]) by dns.mail.ida.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA19413 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:35:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <353BCF31.794BDF32@ida.net> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:41:53 -0600 From: Mike X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Should we approach Redhat, Debian et al. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jason C. Wells wrote: > > Let me say that I am against the "FreeBSD Inc" organization going > commercial. Much discussion has been made about what I feel is a > semi-commercializing process with respect to FreeBSD. This I do not > like. > > In the interest of advocacy, the point has been raised that business > won't use free software because "Free=not there when you need it." To > attract more businesses to FreeBSD someone needs to be "there when you > need it." > > Which brings me to my point. > > The FreeBSD Inc organization might consider soliciting Caldera, SuSE, > Redhat, et al to produce a commercically supported version of FreeBSD. > > Advantages: > Wider distribution. > Commercial support to entice businesses. > A spot next to Linux on university store bookshelves. > The first commercial adopter can increase its offerings to customers and > get an advantage on other Linux resellers. > Commercial adopters already have UNIX expertise. > > Disadvantages: > Funds being diverted to competitors from loss of Walnut Creek sales. > Maybe some loss of control over releases > > I think there may be a net gain to be had by this proposal. > > Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... > Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html > I think that about a month ago Jordan posted in comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc something about providing paid support for FreeBSD. So, maybe there is already a plan in the works. I assume the O.S. would still be free, just the technical support would be charged for. Correct me if I'm wrong. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 16:52:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00519 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:52:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA00250 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:51:06 GMT (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yRQKu-0000Oz-00; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:50:57 +0100 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id AAA00334 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:50:10 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA27239; Tue, 21 Apr 98 00:50:08 BST Message-Id: <353BED45.7F185851@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:50:13 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: An idea for promoting FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've got an idea for helping promote FreeBSD without costing vast sums of money. Why not get together a fully working, but cut-down (i.e no source etc.) version and get it distributed on the cover CD's of computer magazines? Over here in the UK Linux has appeared this way several times in the last few years, which was how I first tried it though I've switched to FreeBSD as I wanted a more SunOS 4.x like environment. Personal Computer World, which had Red Hat Linux on it's CD about 6 months ago, actually invites people to submit s/w for inclusion, the following appears in every issue - "Personal Computer World is keen to promote quality software & would like to hear from you if you are interested in having your product included on a future cover disc. Please telephone Afshan Nasim on 0171 316 9761 or e-mail afshan_nasim@vnu.co.uk" Now PCW's average monthly circulation for Jul - Dec 1997 was 141,575 copies, which is probably nothing compared to circulations of US mags, but think about it, you get 140,000+ copies of FreeBSD distributed for free to people who haven't asked for it & there's going to be some, possibly a lot, who will give it a go - wet Sunday afternoon (over here at least :-( ), pubs shut; "I know, I'll have a look at that Unix thing on the CD...") What's needed is to put together a version of FreeBSD that can run from the CD (like the live filesystem on disc 2 of the CD set), booted either from a floppy or from DOS (both of which FreeBSD can already do), totalling no more than maybe 200-250 Mb. As the majority of those buying the mag will probably be Windozers some thought needs to go into the design of the demo version. I'm not saying that it should be made a Win95 clone but it should be something that will be intuitive to Windoze users. I suggest a set-up something along the lines of: XWindows (of course!) KDE desktop (should make Win95 users feel at home) Netscape Communicator - setup with a special "Welcome to FreeBSD" home page which contains some useful basic info and links to the FAQ & Handbook (on the CD, not the Web site) Acrobat Reader GUI editor (don't want to frighten them with vi/emacs) xv (a good match for Paint Shop Pro) xman xterm (for the more adventurous) a selection of games (Windows users remember) That's my suggested selection for starters but KDE users should be able to improve on that, I use OpenLook (olvwm) lots of shelltools & vi so I lack imagination & artistic flair ;-). OK so it won't be super fast running off the CD, but when I tried Linux that way it was usable (just) on a 486sx33 with 8Mb RAM and a quad speed CD, so a Pentium, 32MB, 24x CD should work well enough. There should also be clear instructions for installing the demo onto the HDD for those who get hooked, and perhaps a shell script for taking the user through setting up UserPPP so they can connect to the Net (first stop www.freebsd.org). It requires the time and effort for people to put it together and test it, but not a great financial investment, make a master copy to send out to the mags and they put it on thousands of CD's (unless of course they charge if it gets included, but I don't think so). What does everyone else think? If one UK mag (not the biggest selling) has a circulation >140k it shouldn't be difficult to get a million copies world-wide. Even if we don't get a lot of new users at least the name FreeBSD will get a higher profile. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 16:56:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01835 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:56:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA01616 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:55:38 GMT (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from ares.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa10259; 20 Apr 98 19:55 EDT Received: from mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.67.12]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA12706; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:54:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (atf3r@localhost) by mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA21613; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:54:12 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU: atf3r owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:54:12 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Irving Popovetsky cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Irving Popovetsky wrote: > Some of the most impressive screenshots that I have personally seen have > been on the webpages of various Window Managers: > > www.enlightenment.org (enlightenment wm) > www.afterstep.org (afterstep) > www.kde.org (the K Desktop environment) > > in their screenshots gallieries. While most of these screenshots were > taken on Linux boxen, its still just XFree86 that they are running, and I > have been able to achieve similar on my FreeBSD box. > > But some of those look real pretty, and make just as great of an argument > for us as they do for the linux people, maybe even a better one :) Yep, they look great. I just about wet my pants when I installed enlightenment for the first time. The problem as I see it is that screen shos still do not show of what makes FreeBSD a superior alternative in many cases. As you mentioned, most of the window manager screen shots were taken under linux. Would they look different on a FreeBSD box. I would hope not! So what can we show _in addition to_ the above? I don't know how to pictorally represent a Linux or NT box gobbling up ever CPU cycle in sight while a FreeBSD box calmly services its clients. I guess I wih we had some "reputable" benchmarks on various measures of system throughput. i.e. compelling graphs. Anyone read the papers from Usenix two years ago in which FreeBSD, Linux and Solaris were compared. I thought it was a decent start. There were deinite flaws in the testing methodology, e.g. the NFS server was always a linux box, but that could have been remedied by providing the bench markers with enough hardware to do the tests properly. I think they were doing a best effort, if not a perfect one. Are there any people interested in publishing refereed benchmark papers? I find most people are compelled to look closer when you show a graph where the competetors have context switch time grow exponentially as a function of number of processes and FreeBSD has one that grows nearly linearly. This is a valuable difference worth paying money for on a busy system. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 16:57:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA02388 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:57:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA02155 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:57:12 GMT (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from ares.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa12710; 20 Apr 98 19:57 EDT Received: from mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.67.12]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA12761; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:57:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (atf3r@localhost) by mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA21655; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:56:59 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU: atf3r owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:56:59 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Robert Watson cc: Irving Popovetsky , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Robert Watson wrote: > > So one unfortunate thing about the AfterStep and Enlightenment screen > shots is as follows: a number of people I showed them to indicated that > the objectified women (scantily clad) weren't so very encouraging when it > came to selecting a desktop for use in a business. They were more > interested in a professional-looking interface than this :). Microsoft, > for example, does not advertise their Scantily-Clad Women Desktop Theme as > a major feature of their windows products. While it would be unrealistic > to expect that people do not use X-Windows for this kind of thing, > attempting to advertise a product as a competitor with WindowsNT as a > business server platform might benefit from a little less of this :). Yes, ths is clearly inappropriate and off-putting. If we ever do roll a FreeBSD/Pro edition, such politically incorrect features should be separated out into optional add ons and not part of the default configuration. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 17:03:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04481 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:03:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA04436 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:03:02 GMT (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from ares.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa18002; 20 Apr 98 20:03 EDT Received: from mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.67.12]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA12844 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:02:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (atf3r@localhost) by mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA21926 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:02:58 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU: atf3r owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:02:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Perhaps what we are getting at here is that we want a graphical catalogue of default desktop user configurations. I could see this as handy both as a flyer to show prospective desktop users and as useful way to see what type of interface is appealing. If we go much beyong this we start stepping into the real of tutorial and user education of features/functionality and I feel that is better accomplished in the "Complete FreeBSD". Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 17:52:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA12592 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:52:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA12335 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:52:11 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-96.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.96]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA36300; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:51:34 GMT Message-ID: <353BED74.E8334A8A@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:51:00 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Filipi-Martin CC: Sue Blake , Malartre , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG How about a series of HTML pages of shots with META REFRESH tags in them that give a tour of possible uses of FreeBSD? Once they click once, they're led by the nose... err, well, you get the idea :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 18:04:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15904 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:04:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15705 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:03:27 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-96.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.96]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA75532; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:03:12 GMT Message-ID: <353BF02E.9EE279CC@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:02:38 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Filipi-Martin CC: Irving Popovetsky , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Nicholas Petreley Subject: Re: Screen Shot References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The WEBstone webserver benchmark and the Byte suite are both included with the FreeBSD distribution. We ought to be able to find comparable published results. > > Are there any people interested in publishing refereed benchmark > papers? I find most people are compelled to look closer when you show a > graph where the competetors have context switch time grow exponentially > as a function of number of processes and FreeBSD has one that grows nearly > linearly. This is a valuable difference worth paying money for on a busy > system. > That's why I was excited by the SPECweb96 mark published for the Novell system. Maybe we can get Nicholas Petreley to poke the InfoWorld Labs into doing a fair cross-platform test with a pair of different real-world webserver configurations, like, say 32MB on a P75 and 256MB on a P-][? Each OS-vendor gets to set up its software as best it can, given the config hardware and test website, then they run the test battery. It would be perhaps a bit more complex to test, but we could even allow CGI on one and Frontpage on the other, giving each team 2 weeks to code the website to a specification. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 18:09:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17029 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:09:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA17013 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:09:28 GMT (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA21683; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804210108.SAA21683@implode.root.com> To: Mark Ovens cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:50:13 -0000." <353BED45.7F185851@uk.radan.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:08:05 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I've got an idea for helping promote FreeBSD without costing vast sums >of money. Why not get together a fully working, but cut-down (i.e no >source etc.) version and get it distributed on the cover CD's of >computer magazines? Incidently, this has happend several times already with FreeBSD. A few times I recall immediately in Japan. ...maybe that's why we're so popular in Japan. :-) -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 18:17:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18215 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:17:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18186 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:17:41 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from pm3g-24.pacificnet.net (pm3g-24.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.73]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA11434; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:15:20 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:16:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia To: phil grainger cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: my two-cents worth In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980420201543.007e9500@m1.gdr.net.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Part of the marketing process is making customers aware of the existence > alternative products, which is part of freebsd's problem, I have spoken to > some people who thought freeBSD was a version of linux, however most people > have never heard of it, watching people's eye's glaze over as you tell them > it emulates linux better than linux. Promoting FreeBSD to the level where a > lot of people are aware of it, could be very expensive ... I agree with your point here. Promoting a product costs money. Considering that Free Software is a worldwide thing, the cost of promoting worldwide would be astronomical. You'd have to have Bill Gates wallet in order to handle it. We need to think of low cost methods in order to promote to our target audience - instructors, programmers, ISP's, scientists, educational facilities, power users, etc. Once we figure out how we can do this, then we need to commit them ASAP if we want things to happen. > Many times, when i have tried selling freeBSD to small organizations, they > say that they would prefer to go for a better known operating system. That's because they are unfamiliar witht he product and are afraid that it might not be as good. Some people think that if someone promotes a product then it must be good. I guess it's a trust thing. > So, perhaps the alternative way to get FreeBSD recognized is through > education, promoting freeBSD to university computer science departments, at > my local university computer science department there is a lot of support > for linux, basically because its free, in a theoretical environment, > quality is usually very subjective ... This is one of the best ways of promotion. Send free cd's to educational facilities for evaluation. If instructors like it...then they'll use it and teach it. Lately, I've seen more and more private computer educational facilities that educate people about computers, programming, networking, and other computer/business related topics. Well, what's the best way to save the company money? Free Software!! Right? Well, that's the point we need to get across to those educators. We need to let them know that FreeBSD is as good as, or better, (we know it's better) than NT or any other commercial Unix. > An ASSOCIATION OF FREEBSD CONSULTANTS, this would certainly improve > freeBSD's viability in the corporate world, being able to supply 24hour a > day, 6-7 days a week internet support for freeBSD systems by a group of > certified freeBSD system admins could certainly give freeBSD the edge, in > marketing. All this really requires is some standardization in how exactly > you setup a freebsd box, and how you fix it if it dies. I would assume that alot of Corporations/Businesses are afraid of using Free Software because there's no 1-800 number to call. Well, I feel that if the FreeBSD team, or community, set up some guidelines to what a FREEBSD NETWORK ENGINEER should be capable of, then those people would be able to support FreeBSD in the corporate world. Basically, FreeBSD might be free....but ya gotta pay for the support. ;) (Hey gotta feed the wife can kids somehow right?) Although, in order to be fair and a bit more united, maybe make it a BSD NETWORK ENGINEER, and make sure that the training provides information that can cross over to other BSD based systems. I feel that a BSD NETWORK ENGINEER should be able to handle FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and BSDi. Being versatile might be an added plus to many Businesses. Also, if the Core Team, or FreeBSD Community, does setup these guidlines...them maybe educational facilities can use them in order to teach FreeBSD Unix to there students. That way they can be leet. :) > If anyone in australia is interested in forming an australian freebsd > cosultants assocation, i would be prepared to support it with some personal > effort both financially and in an organisational effort, if you volunteer > the same. > Hey I'm all for it, but I need alot more training (still pretty new) and I'm also in the USA. But, I love your idea. One of the best so far. Joey Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 18:46:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22287 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:46:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22271 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:46:47 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (pm04-08.aei.ca [206.123.6.183]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA24197 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:46:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353BFA68.8DF5D0E1@aei.ca> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:46:16 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Yahoo! Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F13E4706EF62CC039273077B" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F13E4706EF62CC039273077B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was thinking about Yahoo! They use FreeBSD and they have made somewhere in a lost corner an article about why they use FreeBSD. They also put FreeBSD in little, after a lot of stuff (like Intel, Perl etc...) http://www.yahoo.com/info/misc/contributors.html So, AltaVista have a big link to digital and Alpha. Why not asking Yahoo to put a little link, on the first page "Why Yahoo is so fast" or simply "FreeBSD" Am I asking the impossible or can we do that? Cya Malartre --------------F13E4706EF62CC039273077B Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from hub.freebsd.org (hub.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.18]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA17300 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (daemon@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA15947; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:04:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy) Received: by hub.freebsd.org (bulk_mailer v1.6); Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:04:12 -0700 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15904 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:04:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15705 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:03:27 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-96.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.96]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA75532; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:03:12 GMT Message-ID: <353BF02E.9EE279CC@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:02:38 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Filipi-Martin CC: Irving Popovetsky , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Nicholas Petreley Subject: Re: Screen Shot References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The WEBstone webserver benchmark and the Byte suite are both included with the FreeBSD distribution. We ought to be able to find comparable published results. > > Are there any people interested in publishing refereed benchmark > papers? I find most people are compelled to look closer when you show a > graph where the competetors have context switch time grow exponentially > as a function of number of processes and FreeBSD has one that grows nearly > linearly. This is a valuable difference worth paying money for on a busy > system. > That's why I was excited by the SPECweb96 mark published for the Novell system. Maybe we can get Nicholas Petreley to poke the InfoWorld Labs into doing a fair cross-platform test with a pair of different real-world webserver configurations, like, say 32MB on a P75 and 256MB on a P-][? Each OS-vendor gets to set up its software as best it can, given the config hardware and test website, then they run the test battery. It would be perhaps a bit more complex to test, but we could even allow CGI on one and Frontpage on the other, giving each team 2 weeks to code the website to a specification. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message --------------F13E4706EF62CC039273077B-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 18:55:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22996 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:55:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22986 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:55:31 GMT (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA22142; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804210154.SAA22142@implode.root.com> To: Malartre cc: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo! In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:46:16 EDT." <353BFA68.8DF5D0E1@aei.ca> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:54:11 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Why not asking Yahoo to put a little link, on the first page "Why Yahoo >is so fast" or simply "FreeBSD" >Am I asking the impossible or can we do that? We've asked. Many times. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 19:37:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01041 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:37:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA00851 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:36:44 GMT (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA26065; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:36:29 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980421123626.20778@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:36:26 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot References: <353BED74.E8334A8A@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <353BED74.E8334A8A@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 05:51:00PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 05:51:00PM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > How about a series of HTML pages of shots with META REFRESH tags in them > that give a tour of possible uses of FreeBSD? Once they click once, > they're led by the nose... err, well, you get the idea :) Sounds nice, but I like to get a bit of warning before falling into something like that on a slow link. Have a look at mine, it's the most boring screen in the world but it might be the kind of thing some people are looking for. Maybe someone with more recent apps can do similar but better? http://ahimsa.welearn.com.au/work/sue-screen.gif -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 19:43:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02037 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:43:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA01955 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:42:32 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from pm3h-36.pacificnet.net (pm3h-36.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.133]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA01519; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:40:20 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:41:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia Reply-To: Joey Garcia To: Mike cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Should we approach Redhat, Debian et al. In-Reply-To: <353BCF31.794BDF32@ida.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Mike wrote: > I think that about a month ago Jordan posted in > comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc something about providing paid support for > FreeBSD. So, maybe there is already a plan in the works. I assume the > O.S. would still be free, just the technical support would be charged > for. Hell, if were a FreeBSD guru...I'd charge companies for my FreeBSD knowledge. Dood, like we *all* need money, unless we get free food, free housing, free clothes, free "fill in the blank". FreeBSD (the OS) is free, but FreeBSD expertise is something to be paied for I think. It just seems logical to me. Joey Garcia > > Correct me if I'm wrong. > > Mike > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 19:46:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02884 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:46:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA02878 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:46:22 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from pm3h-36.pacificnet.net (pm3h-36.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.133]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA02695 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:44:18 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:45:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia To: freebsd-advocacy Subject: Announcement: Lifelong BSD Promotion Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well my gf and I have decided to name our kid, which is soon gonna come out (I think - she's like 9 months now), Daemon. Hehehe. Yeah...after the background processes and the BSD Mascot. :) Hell....we've thought of tons of names and we thought this was pretty close to being original and it will be a lifelong promotion gimick for BSD operating systems. heh Besides, it sounds pretty cool no matter how you wanna pronounce it "Demon" or "Damon". *grin* Joey Garcia =================================================== Joseph Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net "Dont drink and drive, you might spill the beer." =================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Apr 20 19:57:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04363 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:57:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA04357 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:57:22 GMT (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA11252; Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:57:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:57:15 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Joey Garcia cc: freebsd-advocacy Subject: Re: Announcement: Lifelong BSD Promotion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Joey Garcia wrote: > > Well my gf and I have decided to name our kid, which is soon gonna come > out (I think - she's like 9 months now), Daemon. Hehehe. Yeah...after > the background processes and the BSD Mascot. :) Hell....we've thought of > tons of names and we thought this was pretty close to being original and > it will be a lifelong promotion gimick for BSD operating systems. heh > Besides, it sounds pretty cool no matter how you wanna pronounce it > "Demon" or "Damon". *grin* Am I the only one having 'Omen' flashbacks? ;) > Joey Garcia > > =================================================== > Joseph Garcia > Downey, CA > bear@pacificnet.net > "Dont drink and drive, you might spill the beer." > =================================================== *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 01:50:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA24768 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:50:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp1.xs4all.nl (smtp1.xs4all.nl [194.109.6.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24741 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:50:01 GMT (envelope-from niels@dbitgroep.xs4all.nl) Received: from dbnt.dbitgroep.xs4all.nl (dbitgroep.xs4all.nl [194.109.83.34]) by smtp1.xs4all.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28859 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:49:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by DBNT with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <2AAMPPKC>; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:04:31 +0200 Message-ID: <21A0017DA77FD111B9F2004F4900FC83C484@DBNT> From: niels To: "'advocacy@freebsd.org'" Subject: Make it easier to install Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:03:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As a Linux user I find it hard to install the additional packages within FreeBSD 2.2.5. I mean packages like TCL and WISH should be automaticly installed in the right directories. Many programs which use the GNU Toolkit (= TCL and WISH) can't find the librarys and header files. Many sourcecode which don't use the GNU Toolkit libs can't find the standard libs and header files. Also Install the FVMW package automaticly and some other utilities as m-tools and Midnight Commander. FreeBSD is already hard to configure, so make it easier to install certain packages automaticly. Just a thought. Signed, Niels Wagenaar The Netherlands ================================================== A C/C++ DOS/Linux/FreeBSD,PASCAL DOS and a Visual Foxpro 5.0 Win32 Developer and a member of the Dieke & v.d. Beek IT Group. You can contact me at niels@dbitgroep.xs4all.nl ================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 02:37:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00902 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA00872 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:37:19 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([192.122.138.250]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18621; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:06:42 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id KAA00449; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:38:48 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980421103846.39361@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:38:47 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Nikolas Kauer , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Linux References: <01BD6BD9.50370420.nkauer@students.wisc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <01BD6BD9.50370420.nkauer@students.wisc.edu>; from Nikolas Kauer on Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 09:22:52PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 19 April 1998 at 21:22:52 -0500, Nikolas Kauer wrote: >> From http://www.futuresouth.com/~fullermd/freebsd/bsd/bsdvlinux.14 I > infer that the second edition of "The Complete FreeBSD" by Greg Lehey > has a paragraph about FreeBSD vs. Linux. (My apologies.) Why is this > issue so taboo? (Greg: "That's a hot potato. A lot of people get fanatical > about the question. Still, I've just had to write this up for the new edition > of 'The Complete FreeBSD', so here goes [...]") The problem is that a lot of people (on both sides) get fanatical about the question. The result is a flamefest. Things are getting better nowadays, now that each camp has begun to respect the other's viewpoint. In earlier times, any message to FreeBSD-questions or one of the Usenet newsgroups would invariably end up in flames. The result was that many people said "don't talk about it". I haven't had any negative feedback about the comparison in the book, which means that either I have failed to offend anybody, or that nobody has read it. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 02:38:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA01337 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:38:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01301 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:38:24 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([192.122.138.250]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18634; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:07:59 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id PAA00943; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:56:53 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980421155652.04218@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:56:52 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Robert Watson , Malartre Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination References: <35397809.7D796AF1@aei.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Robert Watson on Sun, Apr 19, 1998 at 12:45:10AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 19 April 1998 at 0:45:10 -0400, Robert Watson wrote: > > Ok, so I think some stickers would be real cool. Anybody thought of mouse pads? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 02:39:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA01605 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:39:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01596 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:39:21 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([192.122.138.250]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18652; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:09:12 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id OAA00858; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:35:12 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980421143511.22454@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:35:11 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: dwilde1@ibm.net, Malartre Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination References: <35397809.7D796AF1@aei.ca> <35397ED0.57BF7C0C@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <35397ED0.57BF7C0C@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 09:34:24PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 18 April 1998 at 21:34:24 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > Other than the FreeBSD web site or something that needs official > permission from Jordan, or a 'port' that needs to be committed by an > official 'committer', guess what? We're it! Pick something you want to > work on, and go to it. Nobody official asked Mark Mayo to build his > database of articles and academia, he just took it on himself. Ditto the > tireless Greg Lehey and Doug White, who take so much of their time to > make -questions work for all of us. Frank Pawlak Started to take on the > task of coordination for -advocacy, but I haven't heard from him in a > few days. You'll have to get used to the idea that in a democracy > (almost anarchy?) like this is, some ideas get done and some don't. I've been wondering how to describe the social interactions in this project, and I'll probably wonder for a while longer, but here are a couple of observations: The FreeBSD movement is not a democracy. In a democracy, the majority wins. I think the FreeBSD movement is a good example where a democracy would be a Bad Thing. The FreeBSD movement is an anarchy. People go and do their thing, and many benefit from it. The classical problems of anarchies (people making their own laws and terrorizing their neighbours) is eliminated by the communication medium. Linux and FreeBSD have different structures, but they're much more similar than you might think. I wonder what the FreeBSD movement would look like if it were the size of the Linux movement. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 02:39:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA01699 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:39:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01640 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:39:31 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([192.122.138.250]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18638; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:08:26 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id QAA00984; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:31:33 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980421163133.48059@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:31:33 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: dwilde1@ibm.net, Mike , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Screen Shot References: <35391D64.41C67EA6@ida.net> <35398737.A09B5956@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <35398737.A09B5956@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:10:15PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 18 April 1998 at 22:10:15 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > Mike wrote: > >> P.S. Does anybody else but me think that you shouldn't quote the whole >> friggin' message when replying? Be kind on other people's slow links. > > core sure does, read the list charters. I was about to say something, > TNX for speaking up! I frequently get up on my hind legs and complain about this sort of thing (and a whole lot of other related issues). Check out http://www.lemis.com/email.html and send me comments if you will. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 02:40:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA02055 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:40:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01936 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:39:57 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([192.122.138.250]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18658; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:09:37 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id OAA00874; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:48:58 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980421144858.10941@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:48:58 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Joey Garcia , Robert Watson Cc: Malartre , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Joey Garcia on Sat, Apr 18, 1998 at 10:07:19PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 18 April 1998 at 22:07:19 -0700, Joey Garcia wrote: > On Sun, 19 Apr 1998, Robert Watson wrote: > >> Also, how do I get them to people? I can get a bunch made, but then do >> people email me to have them sent? Also, I have no idea how much these >> cost, but will investigate. :) > > I tell ya, Computer Shows is one of the best ways to start promoting. > Lot's of people go and it doesn't cost much to get in and just pass > stickers around. Would be a good idea to have the FreeBSD url on the > sticker. The "Powered by FreeBSD" logo is great, but find out more info > on the copyright BS. Contact Kirk McKusick (mckusick@mckusick.com) for licensing the daemon. He'll be more prepared to agree if you don't call it Chuck. I think that you have a good chance of getting his consent, and it won't cost anything. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 03:19:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA09322 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 03:19:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from boober.lineone.net (boober-be.lineone.net [194.75.152.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09255 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:19:07 GMT (envelope-from gurab@lineone.net) Received: from admin (host5-99-46-122.btinternet.com [195.99.46.122]) by boober.lineone.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA11611; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:17:50 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <00dd01bd6d0e$f82fe4e0$0300a8c0@admin.cian.net> Reply-To: "Christopher Raven" From: "Christopher Raven" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:19:27 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I like that idea, and if someone came up with a "catchy" design, I would be prepared to look into organising a run of them. In fact, if we could agree a standard appearance for stickers and mat we could coordinate them :) I remember someone talking of a "freebsd inside" sticker akin to the "intel inside" logo - any progress here? Even put the finished designs on a web site for future reference? let me know if anyone is interested in this line of thought ....... Chris R. >On Sun, 19 April 1998 at 0:45:10 -0400, Robert Watson wrote: >> >> Ok, so I think some stickers would be real cool. > >Anybody thought of mouse pads? > >Greg > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 04:03:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA12703 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 04:03:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12693; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:03:37 GMT (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA27563; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:03:23 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980421210319.35138@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:03:19 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: email [was: Screen Shot] References: <35391D64.41C67EA6@ida.net> <35398737.A09B5956@ibm.net> <19980421163133.48059@papillon.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980421163133.48059@papillon.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:31:33PM +0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm gonna cc this to -newbies as a subtle hint :-) It's one thing that we can easily learn to do well. On Tue, Apr 21, 1998 at 04:31:33PM +0800, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sat, 18 April 1998 at 22:10:15 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > > Mike wrote: > > > >> P.S. Does anybody else but me think that you shouldn't quote the whole > >> friggin' message when replying? Be kind on other people's slow links. > > > > core sure does, read the list charters. I was about to say something, > > TNX for speaking up! I couldn't see anything specific in the list charters, but I wish it was there. It's so annoying to wade through someone's out of context prattle at the top, then see every word of the original message and sig and footer quoted at the bottom as if it wasn't important to the writer anyway. It's like someone turning their back during a conversation. > I frequently get up on my hind legs and complain about this sort of > thing (and a whole lot of other related issues). Check out > http://www.lemis.com/email.html and send me comments if you will. You forgot to mention it's been enhanced. -- Regards, -*Sue*- find / -name "*.conf" |more To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 04:54:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA23285 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 04:54:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA23275 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:54:08 GMT (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id HAA20901; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:50:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:53:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Greg Lehey cc: Robert Watson , Malartre , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination In-Reply-To: <19980421155652.04218@papillon.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sun, 19 April 1998 at 0:45:10 -0400, Robert Watson wrote: > > > > Ok, so I think some stickers would be real cool. > > Anybody thought of mouse pads? Killer! I would LOVE FreeBSD stuff like that! Mouse pads!, FreeBSD stickers for my logitech trackball, but most definately a FreeBSD mousepad! That would be very cool. Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 05:20:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA28335 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papaya.mail.easynet.net (papaya.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA28327 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:20:16 GMT (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: (qmail 6393 invoked from network); 21 Apr 1998 12:19:40 -0000 Received: from intschool.easynet.co.uk (HELO internationalschool.co.uk) (194.72.37.214) by papaya.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 21 Apr 1998 12:19:40 -0000 Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23630 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:12:30 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <353C8D33.27BA1FD@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:12:35 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: makes you wonder... References: <199804181916.VAA14407@yedi.iaf.nl> <19980418213331.18062@jraynard.demon.co.uk> <35398553.F354E2DF@ibm.net> <19980419103704.62237@jraynard.demon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG James Raynard wrote: > > Great! But there's little sign of it here (UK) so far - Linux is > only mentioned in computer magazines, and then only in passing, and > FreeBSD seems practically unheard of. Computer Shopper reviewed it a few months ago and it's been mentioned in a series about setting up commerce web sites, so they seem to be interested. I emailed the editor suggesting they put a copy on a cover CD, like they did with Linux a few years back, no response though. Maybe if they had a few more emails :-) Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 05:52:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA02062 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 05:52:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA02036 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:52:14 GMT (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from ares.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa07865; 21 Apr 98 8:52 EDT Received: from mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (mamba-fo.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.136.18]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA24612; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:52:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (atf3r@localhost) by mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA03599; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:52:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU: atf3r owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:52:05 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Greg Lehey cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, Malartre , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination In-Reply-To: <19980421143511.22454@papillon.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sat, 18 April 1998 at 21:34:24 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > > official 'committer', guess what? We're it! Pick something you want to > > work on, and go to it. Nobody official asked Mark Mayo to build his > > database of articles and academia, he just took it on himself. Ditto the Freaky! I just put Mark's name in yahoo to find this database and up pops the Arizona Wanted Fugitives list. There is a reward... http://www.adc.state.az.us:81/ADCweb/markmayo.htm Anyone got the real URL? I didn't find much when searching. thanks, Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 06:39:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA08840 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 06:39:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08780 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:38:45 GMT (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26106; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:29:53 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <353C9F56.1D16D5E2@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:29:58 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD References: <353BED45.7F185851@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Ovens wrote: > > Personal Computer World, which had Red Hat Linux on it's CD about 6 > months ago, actually invites people to submit s/w for inclusion, the > following appears in every issue - Computer Shopper would be a better choice, the magazine is cheaper and higher distribution and they've been mentioning it in the last few months as well. "Hey it's that FreeBSD thing they've been going on about, I wonder what it looks like?" etc. A PPP setup script would be very necessary I think, preferably with a dead simple "phone number, username, password" setup for CHAP...most ISP's should cope with that these days, it's far easier to get chap working than repeatedly explain how to install scripting on Win95 :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 07:13:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13164 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:13:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13138 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:13:40 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-176.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.176]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA65222; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:13:25 GMT Message-ID: <353CA963.D9E742D5@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:12:51 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Malartre , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination References: <35397809.7D796AF1@aei.ca> <35397ED0.57BF7C0C@ibm.net> <19980421143511.22454@papillon.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > The FreeBSD movement is not a democracy. In a democracy, the majority > wins. I think the FreeBSD movement is a good example where a > democracy would be a Bad Thing. You're right. I just got reminded of that. > The FreeBSD movement is an anarchy. People go and do their thing, and > many benefit from it. The classical problems of anarchies (people > making their own laws and terrorizing their neighbours) is eliminated > by the communication medium. I'd say, almost correct. Core does have veto power and their own agenda. However, it is a good example of what we Libertarians in America would like to create as a political system. It works very well. Those who like it, stay and contribute. Those who don't, leave. > Linux and FreeBSD have different structures, but they're much more > similar than you might think. I wonder what the FreeBSD movement > would look like if it were the size of the Linux movement. You know, I've been thinking (nooooo!) about this. Perhaps we should leave the 'doze market to Linux and realize that we are already tearing bricks out of the market for SCO, Solaris and HP-UX in terms of comparative ###. FreeBSD is primarily positioned as a server OS, and those are our real competition in that arena. That's not to say I wouldn't like to see FreeBSD on the desktop, but the reality is that it ainna gonna happen until we can plunk a good safe office suite on the CD that reads and writes Word6 and Excel5 files. I understand that StarOffice _was_ a close pass at that, but it's no longer an option. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 07:25:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14782 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:25:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14770 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:25:32 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-176.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.176]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA43652; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:25:10 GMT Message-ID: <353CAC24.3AE7D5A3@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:24:36 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Nikolas Kauer , "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: FreeBSD and Linux References: <01BD6BD9.50370420.nkauer@students.wisc.edu> <19980421103846.39361@papillon.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > bout it". I haven't had > any negative feedback about the comparison in the book, which means > that either I have failed to offend anybody, or that nobody has read > it. What, you don't remember the pointed comments we all sent you _before_ you published it??? ;) I thought you got it pretty well laid out, Greg. -DSW To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 07:43:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16475 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:43:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16359 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:42:08 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id HAA35588 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:42:07 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id HAA08952 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 06:40:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: We need hard data to complement opinion Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ideas area great. Many of them are shared here on these lists. Cataloging and acting on all of these ideas is nearly impossible. Eventually, discussion should come to action which advances the user base of FreeBSD. Hopefully this message is the genesis of a more concrete approach to advancing FreeBSD. I think that an advocacy survey should be created. Data should be gathered. I can think of a number of questions that can be asked regarding the issue of advocacy. Should FreeBSD go commercial? Should FreeBSD be marketed as competitive with other free OSes or cooperative? Should FreeBSD be dumbed down for the mass market? I could go on. I would rather leave the rest open for discussion by my peers. I hope that this thread generates some "questions" that can be useful in determining a course of action regarding advancing the FreeBSD cause. Questions that are crafted should provide useful information. Questions should not betray a bias. We can talk about this as well. If you have a pet advocacy idea, then submit it in the form of a question for the survey. We can find out for sure if the idea has widespread support. If this generates enough interest, perhaps we can become more formal in our data gathering mission. Maybe if a good survey can be engineered then we can formally commit it to a web page. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 07:48:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17253 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:48:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17203 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:48:46 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-176.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.176]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA25798; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:47:20 GMT Message-ID: <353CB156.3B1FDDB9@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:46:46 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Henderson CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: makes you wonder... References: <199804181916.VAA14407@yedi.iaf.nl> <19980418213331.18062@jraynard.demon.co.uk> <35398553.F354E2DF@ibm.net> <19980419103704.62237@jraynard.demon.co.uk> <353C8D33.27BA1FD@internationalschool.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stuart Henderson wrote: > Computer Shopper reviewed it a few months ago and it's been mentioned in > a series about setting up commerce web sites, so they seem to be > interested. I emailed the editor suggesting they put a copy on a cover > CD, like they did with Linux a few years back, no response though. Most editors won't budge unless they get an accomplished fact thrust into their faces. We'll have to build the CD ourselves, then I'm sure they'd be glad to do it. A PPP script is a little tricky, because there are so mny variations in ISP's, especially now that M$ has mucked up the picture with their own ideas of how things should work. How about if we focus on FreeBSD as a self-contained web development system, loading Apache, Mozilla and emacs with HTML e-lisp stuff? HTML doesn't take up much space, and if we were smart, we could run the whole shebang off the CD without the HDD. And, of course, you _know_ what we could do with the root window... ;) I would prefer Java to Perl, but I haven't had enough time to sit down and dig into the JDK yet to understand its ramifications. [More O'Reilly books coming in the mail!!!] Canned configuration: FreeBSD config'd to copy root filesystem into ramdisk XFree86 in 640x480x8bpp mouse selector script fvwm (for simplicity and configurability) Apache Mozilla xscreensaver neat _active_ root window program the FreeBSD website, including Handbook An option, of course, would be to let them install this configuration onto their HDD. That way, they could actually save programs they create with the tools we give them. Now, if we could do PPP and actually bootstrap them into DL the real FreeBSD onto their HDD... :)))) -> DSW To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 07:59:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19160 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:59:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19147 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:59:45 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id HAA45396; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:59:43 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id HAA22944; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 06:58:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: niels cc: "'advocacy@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: Make it easier to install In-Reply-To: <21A0017DA77FD111B9F2004F4900FC83C484@DBNT> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, niels wrote: > As a Linux user I find it hard to install the additional > packages within FreeBSD 2.2.5. If you find FreeBSD packages hard to install then you probably dont know about pkg_add or the ports collection. This is as easy as it gets. /usr/ports/security/pgp $ make /usr/ports/security/pgp $ make install Voila! Or even easier, run '/stand/sysinstall' and choose your new software from a menu. > I mean packages like TCL and WISH should be automaticly > installed in the right directories. Many programs which use the Pkg_add does install things in the right directory. OBTW. What on earth is WISH/TCL? (My point in asking is that _I_ don't think it is important as you might think. I don't have a single TCL app on my box. I don't need TCL, yet.) > GNU Toolkit (= TCL and WISH) can't find the librarys and header > files. Many sourcecode which don't use the GNU Toolkit libs can't > find the standard libs and header files. I never, ever have had one of those "Can't find lib..." messages. Never. > Also Install the FVMW package automaticly and some other utilities > as m-tools and Midnight Commander. No, don't install FVWM, Install enlightenment. No, install FVWM95. No... I do agree that there is some advantage to having a machine run a GUI right out of the box. This might go far to advance the user base of FreeBSD. Which one? FVWM is a nightmare to configure. You want to scare a newbie? Tell them to figure out how to change the background color in FVWM. KDE is simpler in this respect and would be a better newbie GUI. > FreeBSD is already hard to configure, so make it easier to install > certain packages automaticly. It does this too. When you do the install there is a simple menu to choose how much you want installed. There are 1,345 pieces of software for FreeBSD. Every indivudual has their own idea about what is important. FreeBSD gives YOU the choice of how to configure your system. I prefer not to have someone elses idea of how my system should be set up thrust upon me. I feel FreeBSD makes it very simple to do post install configuration. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 08:08:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20729 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:08:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA20717 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:08:42 GMT (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yReew-0007Gj-00; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:08:35 +0100 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA05073; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:07:54 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19082; Tue, 21 Apr 98 16:07:52 BST Message-Id: <353CB636.F46D457C@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:07:34 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Henderson Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD References: <353BED45.7F185851@uk.radan.com> <353C9F56.1D16D5E2@internationalschool.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stuart Henderson wrote: > > Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > Personal Computer World, which had Red Hat Linux on it's CD about 6 > > months ago, actually invites people to submit s/w for inclusion, the > > following appears in every issue - > > Computer Shopper would be a better choice, the magazine is cheaper and > higher distribution and they've been mentioning it in the last few > months as well. "Hey it's that FreeBSD thing they've been going on > about, I wonder what it looks like?" etc. I wasn't suggesting PCW only, I was just using it as an example as there is that invitation to submit software in every issue. We should try to get FreeBSD on the cover CD of _every_ computer mag. I didn't renew my subscription to Confuse-a-Shopper when it expired a few months ago because I was fed up with the mag being so pro-Microsloth, Unix was just something to poke fun at to make Win95 & NT (Not Tested??) look better. So what happens? the last issue of my subscription had a 4 page review of FreeBSD!!!, and a damn good one as well wasn't it? > > A PPP setup script would be very necessary I think, preferably with a > dead simple "phone number, username, password" setup for CHAP...most > ISP's should cope with that these days, it's far easier to get chap > working than repeatedly explain how to install scripting on Win95 :-) Yes, it doesn't have to be a fancy GUI job just a plain old Bourne shell script, but the questions need to simple and minimal. Phone number, name, password as you suggest. -- Mark Ovens *====================================* CNC Apps Engineer | One of the main causes of the fall | Radan Computational Ltd | of the Roman Empire was, that | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com | lacking a zero, they had no way of | | indicating the successful | | termination of their C programs | *====================================* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 08:25:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24850 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:25:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dns.mail.ida.net (mail.ida.net [204.228.203.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA24833 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:25:38 GMT (envelope-from muck@ida.net) Received: from falcon.hinterlands.com (pm-pt2-22.ida.net [198.60.251.231]) by dns.mail.ida.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id JAA20701 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:18:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <353CBAA5.41C67EA6@ida.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:26:29 -0600 From: Mike X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD References: <353BED45.7F185851@uk.radan.com> <353C9F56.1D16D5E2@internationalschool.co.uk> <353CB636.F46D457C@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mark Ovens wrote: > > A PPP setup script would be very necessary I think, preferably with a > > dead simple "phone number, username, password" setup for CHAP...most > > ISP's should cope with that these days, it's far easier to get chap > > working than repeatedly explain how to install scripting on Win95 :-) > > Yes, it doesn't have to be a fancy GUI job just a plain old Bourne shell > script, but the questions need to simple and minimal. Phone number, > name, password as you suggest. I'm working on a ppp setup script right now, although, after consulting with Brian Somers, I don't know if it's such a good idea. If we got FreeBSD to a hundred thousand new users, he would be flooded with their requests to answer questions he's answered a million times before. >> I have written a small shell script which will ask the user some >> questions and then setup PPP for him. It's not complete yet, as it does >> no actual writing of files. But, I would like to have your opinion on >> it. I pretty much used the handbook entry on PPP as a guide. I've >> attached it to this email. And oh, yeah, this is my first attempt at >> writing a shell script so any comments would be welcome. >> >> Mike >[.....] > >Hi, > >This is a tricky subject. I think it's almost impossible to set up >the configuration files in this manner.... > >As far as I can tell, there are essentially two types of user - the >one that'll get scared off by a configuration file and the one who >will be happy to tweak a roughly correct configuration file. I think >there are very few people that have the time to set one up from >scratch - it just takes too long. > >Person-type 1 tends not to know enough detail to be able to answer >the questions that you need to ask in an interactive-setup type >scenario - for example, some users will want PAP or CHAP, some will >have a login/password session that gives other prompts too (such as >the popular "Protocol: " prompt after the password). And then there >are the more obscure problems where we're talking to an ISP that has >to receive 0.0.0.0 as our IP number before they'll assign a dynamic >IP, or a pre-patchkit-3 NT server that won't do proper CHAP, and the >user needs to rebuild ppp with DES. > >Person-type 2 wouldn't use the script. They'll be willing to grap >ppp.conf.sample and go from there. > >I don't really know what to do about Person-type 1. The best idea is >probably to maintain a catalogue of ppp.conf settings for different >ISP types. The problem is that I'm not willing to maintain that 'cos >it makes people *too* lazy and increases my workload in answering the >same questions over and over. > >My other idea is to write an X-Window front-end program that makes >all this look pretty with throughput monitors, dial/hangup buttons >etc - all the bells & whistles. The current development version can >support this sort of thing 'cos it can accept as many incoming >diagnostic settings as you want. But that's not going to be for a >while yet. > >I'm not convinced that the interactive approach is the answer.... :-( > > >-- >Brian , , > >Don't _EVER_ lose your sense of humour.... Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 08:39:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26601 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:39:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26567 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:39:12 GMT (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00305; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:30:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <353CBBB6.9D26A329@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:31:02 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dwilde1@ibm.net CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: makes you wonder... References: <199804181916.VAA14407@yedi.iaf.nl> <19980418213331.18062@jraynard.demon.co.uk> <35398553.F354E2DF@ibm.net> <19980419103704.62237@jraynard.demon.co.uk> <353C8D33.27BA1FD@internationalschool.co.uk> <353CB156.3B1FDDB9@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > > Most editors won't budge unless they get an accomplished fact thrust > into their faces. We'll have to build the CD ourselves, then I'm sure > they'd be glad to do it. I agree there - if we could get something together (maybe with an autorun from Windows using fbsdboot :-) they would know what they're getting then! > A PPP script is a little tricky, because there are so mny variations > in ISP's, especially now that M$ has mucked up the picture with their > own ideas of how things should work. One good thing that came out of that, is that most internet providers in the UK support CHAP. All the ones I know about do anyway (about 175,000 users between them). Maybe ppp needs to fetch the IP address for the DNS server though, I'll ask Brian what he thinks :-) > I would prefer Java to Perl, but I haven't had enough time to sit > down and dig into the JDK yet to understand its ramifications. There's a lot that can be done with perl, plus it has the advantage you can use Lynx as well :-) > FreeBSD config'd to copy root filesystem into ramdisk There was a nice 'copycache' system on Linux-FT, it installed a minimal system to HD and copied other files as required. This was used on the Linux disk they did, you chose how much disk space you wanted to use and it did the rest for you. I'll see if I can find my copy of the disk and have a look if it's at all portable although thanks to MS most people will have big enough hard drives anyway :-) (anyone know if FIPS does fat32 yet? If not, that needs to be looked at as well - people would be reluctant to reformat drives or pay for PartitionMagic even if FreeBSD is free). A preconfigured samba would be nice as well, setup for home directories and /tmp maybe. Have to check with Netscape about distribution as well 'cos v5 just isn't going to cut it if we want it to look stable :-) ISTR they let pretty much anyone distribute nowadays though so it might not be a problem. > with the tools we give them. Now, if we could do PPP and actually > bootstrap them into DL the real FreeBSD onto their HDD... :)))) I don't think that would be popular here, we have to pay for all phone calls :( I'd love to try and get this together, I just have to get my hard drive back from work so I can play around again...(out of fileserver space again and the new drive hasn't arrived yet!) Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 10:46:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25707 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:46:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kris.wpi.edu (kris.WPI.EDU [130.215.64.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25612 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:46:12 GMT (envelope-from rick@kris.wpi.edu) Received: (from rick@localhost) by kris.wpi.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA14534; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:47:44 -0400 (EDT) From: "Rick C. Petty" Message-Id: <199804211747.NAA14534@kris.wpi.edu> Subject: Re: A lot of idea --- Coordination In-Reply-To: <19980421143511.22454@papillon.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Apr 21, 98 02:35:11 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:47:44 -0400 (EDT) Cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, malartre@aei.ca, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Files: Trust no one! X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I wonder what the FreeBSD movement > would look like if it were the size of the Linux movement. Heaven? ;) --Rick C. Petty, aka Snoopy mailto: rick@kris.wpi.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- C/C++/DBMS/SQL/Perl/Java/HTML http://kris.wpi.edu/~rick/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 11:03:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00507 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:03:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from general1.consumersedge.com (mail.personalogic.com [208.213.67.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA00501 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:03:44 GMT (envelope-from dshanes@personalogic.com) Received: from SHANES by general1.consumersedge.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id JL0VPMXT; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:04:03 -0700 Message-ID: <01db01bd6d4e$ee352960$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> From: "David Shanes" To: Cc: "Brett Glass" , "Greg Lehey" Subject: Fw: "Free and Open Source Software" Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:57:20 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here is the message I sent in response to Brett's e-mail on the radio show http://www.sciencefriday.com/pages/1998/Apr/hour2b_041798.html Brett & Greg - I am also sending this directly to you, I did not know if you were on advocacy. David -----Original Message----- From: David Shanes To: producer@sciencefriday.com ; ceo@sciencentral.com Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 10:01 AM Subject: "Free and Open Source Software" >Dear All, > I applaud your efforts at supporting free software. As many of us know, >free software is the backbone of the Internet. > I must admit that I feel cheated that your show had no mention of >FreeBSD, a free version of the UNIX system, similar to Linux. I use FreeBSD >and feel it is a more stable operating system. Yahoo! and CDROM.COM (Walnut >Creek CD-ROM) must agree because they use it on their heavily used site. > Would it be possible to mention that it was left out of your show? Was >there any particular reason FreeBSD was not mentioned? > Thank you for your time. > >Sincerely, >David >_____________________________________________________ >David Shanes 7535 Metropolitan Drive >dshanes@personalogic.com San Diego, CA 92108 >Database Developer (619) 220-5800 x228 >PersonaLogic, Inc. (619) 220-5899 (fax) >http://www.PersonaLogic.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 11:06:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01099 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:06:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from general1.consumersedge.com (mail.personalogic.com [208.213.67.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01086 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:06:17 GMT (envelope-from dshanes@personalogic.com) Received: from SHANES by general1.consumersedge.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1458.49) id JL0VPMYF; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:06:37 -0700 Message-ID: <01f401bd6d4f$4a70eac0$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> From: "David Shanes" To: Cc: "Brett Glass" , "Greg Lehey" Subject: Fw: "Free and Open Source Software" (fwd) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:59:55 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here is their reply... Between this and James Love's letter -- feedback works ! David _____________________________________________________ David Shanes 7535 Metropolitan Drive dshanes@personalogic.com San Diego, CA 92108 Database Developer (619) 220-5800 x228 PersonaLogic, Inc. (619) 220-5899 (fax) http://www.PersonaLogic.com -----Original Message----- From: SciFri Web Producer To: David Shanes Date: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 5:58 AM Subject: "Free and Open Source Software" (fwd) >Sir - thanks for your note and your comments. The fact that BSD was left >out of the program wasn't a conscious decision - it was more a function of >the fact that in the short time we had, we could only have one or two >guests - and so the decision was made to go with people who had been >active political (or perhaps religious?) leaders in the open source >movement. Had we had more time.... sigh. Perhaps in the future. But I >will add a note to our synopsis of the show mentioning FreeBSD, and >providing a link so that people can find out more. I'm out of the office >today, but should have it up within the next day or two. > >Thanks for the suggestion - >Charles Bergquist >Site producer, sciencefriday.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 11:45:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12866 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:45:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12707 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:44:17 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-15.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.15]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA30182; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:42:42 GMT Message-ID: <353CE87F.EFF21D85@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:42:07 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Henderson CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: makes you wonder... References: <199804181916.VAA14407@yedi.iaf.nl> <19980418213331.18062@jraynard.demon.co.uk> <35398553.F354E2DF@ibm.net> <19980419103704.62237@jraynard.demon.co.uk> <353C8D33.27BA1FD@internationalschool.co.uk> <353CB156.3B1FDDB9@ibm.net> <353CBBB6.9D26A329@internationalschool.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stuart Henderson wrote: > One good thing that came out of that, is that most internet providers in > the UK support CHAP. All the ones I know about do anyway (about 175,000 > users between them). Maybe ppp needs to fetch the IP address for the DNS > server though, I'll ask Brian what he thinks :-) > I have Linux PPP configs for IBM.net, I need to get the time to set it up here. If I can do that relatively out-of-the-box, we can give them internet, not dialup, from a local call almost everywhere. I've been spoiled so far by having part of a T1 to use, but I now have to learn dialup. > > I would prefer Java to Perl, but I haven't had enough time to sit > > down and dig into the JDK yet to understand its ramifications. > > There's a lot that can be done with perl, plus it has the advantage you > can use Lynx as well :-) Unfortunately, Perl is such a misbegotten abortion (personal opinion of one who's forced to maintain and add to 200K of Perl code done _before_ the modules were in common usage) that it's enough to scare anybody off computing forever. What the heck does $| = 1; mean? (example) That's why I'd like to look at Java. I would prefer Tcl as a cleaner scripting language, but Perl is much more complete (with CPAN modules). > Have to check with Netscape about distribution as well 'cos v5 just > isn't going to cut it if we want it to look stable :-) ISTR they let > pretty much anyone distribute nowadays though so it might not be a > problem. > How does Mozilla.org feel about releasing NS3 source? I'd prefer that. > > with the tools we give them. Now, if we could do PPP and actually > > bootstrap them into DL the real FreeBSD onto their HDD... :)))) > > I don't think that would be popular here, we have to pay for all phone > calls :( I was referring to PPP to a provider. IBM gives you a month for free. >From that it's just a trip to the nearest mirror of FBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 12:19:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25790 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:19:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA25727; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:19:25 GMT (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id OAA03812; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:19:12 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980421141912.47324@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:19:12 -0500 From: dannyman To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-mozilla@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: mozilla press release - fill in the blank! Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-mozilla@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=UOF0GtieIMvvwuan X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --UOF0GtieIMvvwuan Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii [note followup-to: advocacy] hey guys. i have written, as per discussion on -hackers, i think, some time back, a news release about the CVS archive for mozilla. i've gotten sidetracked by schoolwork, but i want this out the door ASAP. one thing anyone on -advocacy can do, and i only subscribed recently, is suply a good quote about how nice CVS is or something, otherwise proof/correct this thing, and offer elucidation as to where to disseminate such a critter and under whose authority. if nothing else, maybe please _someone gimme a nice quote_ about CVS .. it's kinda like "yadda yadda CVS helps me run a multi-million dollar network and makes me a stallion with my wife and that's why FreeBSD will destroy Microsoft and make Linus look even humbler than he is" said FreeBSD user joe blow, of Some Place, Inc. or the like ... of course, we want something honest and plausible sounding that seems to work in a news release. thanks for any input or help that you guys can provide! -dan -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) --UOF0GtieIMvvwuan Content-Type: text/plain Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="btw275-mozilla.txt" Wednesday, April 22 1998 -- For Immediate Release FREEBSD MOZILLA GROUP ESTABLISHES CVS ARCHIVE FreeBSD users serious about Mozilla development ============================================================================= Following the establishment of the FreeBSD Mozilla Group and a centralized CVS file archive over the past weekend, FreeBSD users can now track changes to Netscape Communicator's Mozilla source code with ease. The FreeBSD Mozilla Group has been established in order to coordinate development of Netscape's next-generation web browser, dubbed "Mozilla", for the FreeBSD platform. Following the recent release of the source code to Mozilla, several free software groups have organized to become actively involved in helping Netscape to develop the product. FreeBSD has taken a lead in establishing a centralized file repository for tracking changes to the Mozilla source code submitted by its developers. CVS is already widely used by the FreeBSD Project to coordinate changes in the source code to the operating system, enabling developers to keep track as new revisions and features are added, and to experiment with different branches of development. CVS is also useful to users who can easily update their local copies of the source code through client programs which automatically download and apply the various changes, or "patches" as they are made. Many FreeBSD users have viewed the move as a positive and useful step, and hope that the continued widespread use and convenience of CVS may help attract users to the platform, which is often overshadowed by the similar and more widely recognized Linux operating system. ::insert quote here:: Information on accessing the file archive, which can be browsed through the web, is available on the FreeBSD Mozilla Group's web site at http://www.freebsd.org/mozilla.html. The site contains information about the project, including a mailing list and instructions on synchronizing source trees through tools like CVSup, as well as links to information on using CVS for other applications. FreeBSD is a 4.4BSD-Lite based operating system for Intel architecture (x86) based PCs. FreeBSD and its source code is freely distributed through the Internet and is available on CD-ROM from Walnut Creek CDROM. (http://www.cdrom.com/) Development, support, documentation and distribution of FreeBSD is coordinated through FreeBSD Inc. (http://www.freebsd.org/) --UOF0GtieIMvvwuan-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 13:59:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21723 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA21672 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:59:21 GMT (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id NAA16316; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:59:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma016311; Tue, 21 Apr 98 13:58:42 -0700 Message-ID: <353D0853.142D72CA@partsnow.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:57:55 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@partsnow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: supplements@infoworld.com CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hwg-servers@hwg.org Subject: Freeware Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG To the Editors of InfoWorld - Thank you for the increasing acknowledgement by your magazine of the power and value of freeware. My company uses FreeBSD, Apache and Perl, along with other freeware, for all its mission-critical internet services, and I'm now expanding the freeware presence in our company inside the firewall. I would like to propose a challenge. Novell recently crowed about its SPECweb96 benchmark perfomance. I suspect FreeBSD plus Apache would have little trouble trashing either Novell or Microsoft systems, or Solaris on x86 for that matter, in the high-performance webserver arena. We are, however, at a disadvantage as we don't have the budget to buy ad space and marketing to promote ourselves like these huge corporations. Certainly we do more with a lot less people! Here's what I'd like to see: Web Server Face-Off =================== 1) Identical hardware provided for every participant: a) a P100+32MB+2GB-IDE "typical small business" webserver b) a P-II+256MB+4x2GB-SCSI "large enterprise" webserver 2) A software specification for 2 typical websites built on generic HTML3.2 capabilities 3) 2 weeks to code either CGI or ASP or Java (or any other suitable language) to perform the functionality of the spec sites, and set it up on the server as best they can in that timeframe 4) No modifications allowed to the OS code beyond what is normally allowed to an administrator, i.e. 'rebuilding the kernel' is allowed, but not 'tweaking the C source' or 'patching the OS', since this is not available to payware users. Start with the raw code of the latest release disks available to the public. 5) A vendor-neutral test site with testing done on an unloaded 10MBps LAN. 6) High-speed Internet access for each on-site team for support and code contribution from outside 7) A simulated-client-load server (or server set) spitting page requests in a controlled manner, the algorithms of which are _not_ disclosed beforehand to the participants, nor influenced by any of the participants 8) Full disclosure of the tweaks, setups, modifications and code utilized by each participant, and the cost of all software utilized in the project What do you think? I think I've presented a fair assessment mechanism, using real-world circumstances. Enough boasting and flaming, let's put it to the test! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 14:12:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25171 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:12:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost1.u.washington.edu (mailhost1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25080 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:12:27 GMT (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from u.washington.edu (dmorrisn@D-128-95-141-142.dhcp.washington.edu [128.95.141.142]) by mailhost1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with ESMTP id OAA00801 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:12:24 -0700 Message-ID: <353D0C80.8CD288B8@u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:15:44 -0700 From: Don Morrison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo! References: <199804210154.SAA22142@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >Why not asking Yahoo to put a little link, on the first page "Why Yahoo > >is so fast" or simply "FreeBSD" > >Am I asking the impossible or can we do that? > > We've asked. Many times. > Why not put the "Why Yahoo is so fast" on the www.freebsd.org web page? A few advocacy anecdotes here and there might make the page (and project) seem a little more active--by showing examples of _who_ uses freebsd. I think that's the point behind trying to have yahoo put a freebsd logo on their page. Nowhere on the freebsd homepage does it make reference to our user base (aside from the "developed and maintained by a large team of individuals" statement, which uses the verbs "developed" and "maintained" in their passive forms which makes them hardly worth saying). Seeing concrete connections (by anecdote) between an operating system and _who_ is using it is something that is primarily what a lot of would-be-users are looking for IMHO. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 14:19:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26825 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26725 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:19:18 GMT (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id RAA17171; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:15:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:19:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Don Wilde cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Freeware In-Reply-To: <353D0853.142D72CA@partsnow.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I can just hear em laughing and rolling on the floor. "Is this guy serious! FAIR! bwahaha FAIR! He wants us to be fair and show people how BAD our test OS's perform! haha If it wasnt for our rigged benchmarks and false imaginary numbers we wouldn't sell a single square inch of ad space or get any kickbacks from the broken OS vendors, like last year when M$ flew us down to the carribean! hahah" heh I doubt thats actually happening but thats what popped in my head :) -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 14:35:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00477 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:35:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misfit.users.xmission.com (misfit.users.xmission.com [207.135.128.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00256 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:34:48 GMT (envelope-from misfit@misfit.users.xmission.com) Received: (from misfit@localhost) by misfit.users.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA00413; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:34:38 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from misfit) To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Announcement: Lifelong BSD Promotion References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: misfit@xmission.com (Anthony C. Chavez) Date: 21 Apr 1998 15:34:34 -0600 In-Reply-To: "Matthew D. Fuller"'s message of "Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:57:15 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: <8790oyc104.fsf@misfit.users.xmission.com> Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.3 - "Vatican City" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > Am I the only one having 'Omen' flashbacks? > ;) Initially, no, but the toggle switch in my brain just switched over to "South Park mode." :-) -- Anthony C. Chavez To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 15:50:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14684 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:50:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14673 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:50:44 GMT (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id QAA28067; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:50:07 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA07127; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:49:31 -0600 (MDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:49:31 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Don Wilde cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hwg-servers@hwg.org Subject: Re: Freeware In-Reply-To: <353D0853.142D72CA@partsnow.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG (infoworld cc removed) On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > To the Editors of InfoWorld - > Thank you for the increasing acknowledgement by your magazine of the power and > value of freeware. My company uses FreeBSD, Apache and Perl, along with other > freeware, for all its mission-critical internet services, and I'm now expanding > the freeware presence in our company inside the firewall. > I would like to propose a challenge. Novell recently crowed about its SPECweb96 > benchmark perfomance. I suspect FreeBSD plus Apache would have little trouble > trashing either Novell or Microsoft systems, or Solaris on x86 for that matter, > in the high-performance webserver arena. We are, however, at a disadvantage as > we don't have the budget to buy ad space and marketing to promote ourselves like > these huge corporations. Certainly we do more with a lot less people! I not only suspect that you would be wrong in saying current Apache code could obtain better results than IIS or Novell's Enterprise port in a benchmark, I know it. SPECweb results have very limited meaning outside the "how can we make our software give the highest SPECweb results". Sure, that is a fun thing to play with and I play with such things with Apache to the limited degree that my available testbeds and time allows, but it misses the big picture. Apache's performance isn't shabby, but it isn't optimized for this sort of thing. Yet. > Here's what I'd like to see: > > Web Server Face-Off > =================== > 1) Identical hardware provided for every participant: > a) a P100+32MB+2GB-IDE "typical small business" webserver > b) a P-II+256MB+4x2GB-SCSI "large enterprise" webserver > 2) A software specification for 2 typical websites built on generic HTML3.2 > capabilities > 3) 2 weeks to code either CGI or ASP or Java (or any other suitable language) to > perform the functionality of the spec sites, and set it up on the server as best > they can in that timeframe > 4) No modifications allowed to the OS code beyond what is normally allowed to an > administrator, i.e. 'rebuilding the kernel' is allowed, but not 'tweaking the C > source' or 'patching the OS', since this is not available to payware users. > Start with the raw code of the latest release disks available to the public. > 5) A vendor-neutral test site with testing done on an unloaded 10MBps LAN. > 6) High-speed Internet access for each on-site team for support and code > contribution from outside > 7) A simulated-client-load server (or server set) spitting page requests in a > controlled manner, the algorithms of which are _not_ disclosed beforehand to the > participants, nor influenced by any of the participants > 8) Full disclosure of the tweaks, setups, modifications and code utilized by > each participant, and the cost of all software utilized in the project > > What do you think? I think I've presented a fair assessment mechanism, using > real-world circumstances. Enough boasting and flaming, let's put it to the test! I'm not sure what you are trying to assess. This doesn't assess performance very well, saturating 10 megs is trivial, and it is bogus to expect a server to perform well against some arbitrary client doing arbitrary things that don't necessarily have anything to do with the real world. Note that I am very aware of the benefits of FreeBSD and Apache over other solutions, but this really doesn't show them. -- Marc Slemko | Apache Group member marcs@znep.com | marc@apache.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 16:31:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20437 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:31:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tok.qiv.com (4kNBLoDXTz5uq4GCOxxDm4vQC/ReNYvH@tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA20371 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:30:29 GMT (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id SAA02786; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:29:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA01226; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:21:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:21:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Don Morrison cc: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo! In-Reply-To: <353D0C80.8CD288B8@u.washington.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Don Morrison wrote: >> >Why not asking Yahoo to put a little link, on the first page "Why Yahoo >> >is so fast" or simply "FreeBSD" >> >Am I asking the impossible or can we do that? >> >> We've asked. Many times. > >Why not put the "Why Yahoo is so fast" on the www.freebsd.org web page? A I think we need to be very careful publicizing information that any company, let alone one who supports us, may consider proprietary or may not want generally known. At best, we risk angering a supporter. At worst, we risk lawsuit. If we don't have an explicit release, the information should be considered proprietary and off limits. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 16:38:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21367 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:38:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost1.u.washington.edu (mailhost1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA21326 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:37:56 GMT (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from u.washington.edu (dmorrisn@D-128-95-141-142.dhcp.washington.edu [128.95.141.142]) by mailhost1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with ESMTP id QAA08666 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:37:51 -0700 Message-ID: <353D2E9A.58C608F8@u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:41:14 -0700 From: Don Morrison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >Why not put the "Why Yahoo is so fast" on the www.freebsd.org web page? A > > I think we need to be very careful publicizing information that any > company, let alone one who supports us, may consider proprietary or > may not want generally known. At best, we risk angering a supporter. > At worst, we risk lawsuit. > > If we don't have an explicit release, the information should be > considered proprietary and off limits. > > -- Jay I didn't mean to suggest that articles be posted against the wishes of a supporter, just that the freebsd homepage could be strengthened in one or more aspects. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 16:56:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23907 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:56:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23866 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:55:57 GMT (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id QAA18567; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:55:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma018558; Tue, 21 Apr 98 16:55:11 -0700 Message-ID: <353D31B1.75194AD0@partsnow.com> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:54:25 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@partsnow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Slemko CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hwg-servers@hwg.org Subject: Re: Freeware References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Marc Slemko wrote: > I not only suspect that you would be wrong in saying current Apache code > could obtain better results than IIS or Novell's Enterprise port in a > benchmark, I know it. SPECweb results have very limited meaning outside > the "how can we make our software give the highest SPECweb results". > Sure, that is a fun thing to play with and I play with such things with > Apache to the limited degree that my available testbeds and time allows, > but it misses the big picture. > > Apache's performance isn't shabby, but it isn't optimized for this sort of > thing. Yet. [snip of original Challenge post] > I'm not sure what you are trying to assess. This doesn't assess > performance very well, saturating 10 megs is trivial, and it is bogus to > expect a server to perform well against some arbitrary client doing > arbitrary things that don't necessarily have anything to do with the real > world. > > Note that I am very aware of the benefits of FreeBSD and Apache over other > solutions, but this really doesn't show them. > > -- > Marc Slemko | Apache Group member > marcs@znep.com | marc@apache.org Actually, I wrote it so Infoworld (or whoever takes up the challenge) could generate their own best guess at a real-world client load. The game here is to perform a test which is fair to all. I'm well aware of the lies, damn lies and benchmarks that all the payware vendors use to hype their stuff. I've followed processor and system development for almost 20 years now, and I'm well aware of the tweaks one can make with caching, optimization, etc. However, I think this challenge poses real benefit to all in that it makes the setup tricks of high-performance installations visible to all of us. That's why I made the stipulation that all additions and mods to anything be made public, so we all can learn how it's done, regardless of the OS chosen. As to saturating a 10MBps, okay, go gigabit. The object is to stress the server and the webserver software to the point where it chokes, not the channel. I'd prefer it if IW makes their client-load program controllable, so we could really see where and what breaks each system. I'm open to discussion on modifications of the challenge, although I think I've made a fair attempt at uniformity and fairness. For example, tweaking source or make-world compiling with a pentium-optimized compiler would give FreeBSD a real advantage over payware, but you notice I've left that out. That is, unless NT is specified as Pentium-or-better, which it probably is. I should have made the small-business machine a 486, which FreeBSD / Apache works quite well on, in that case. ;) Please note that this challenge is designed to showcase performance as created by professional programmers using their talent for a real-world client, not Joe CEO creating his own homepage in his garage. I want it to be typical for the Intranets and Extranets designed by mid-to-large-sized corporations. In FreeBSD apps, the development team is one or two guys, in NT apps it's 5 or 10, but the reality is that WYSIWYG page creation tools don't go very far in the real world of applications, and real world sites aren't just HTML pages and animated GIF's any more. To do anything real you need programmers, not graphics design artists. The subject of how Joe CEO can create his own homepage is a completely different one, not addressed here. Thanks for your comments! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 17:33:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01906 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:33:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.inreach.com ([209.142.0.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01882 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:33:45 GMT (envelope-from dburr@POBoxes.com) Received: from control.colossus.dyn.ml.org (dburr@199-170-160-87.la.inreach.net [199.107.160.87]) by mail.inreach.com (8.8.8/8.8.6/(InReach)) with SMTP id RAA00380; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:29:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Donald Burr X-Sender: dburr@control.colossus.dyn.ml.org To: Jay Nelson cc: Don Morrison , FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Jay Nelson wrote: > >Why not put the "Why Yahoo is so fast" on the www.freebsd.org web page? A > > I think we need to be very careful publicizing information that any > company, let alone one who supports us, may consider proprietary or > may not want generally known. At best, we risk angering a supporter. > At worst, we risk lawsuit. Wasn't this information published already? (albeit not on the web, but in another FreeBSD publication) Specifically, I seem to recall a "Yahoo uses FreeBSD! Yay!" type article in the FreeBSD Newsletter I received last July or so... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 17:37:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02501 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:37:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02420; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:36:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199804220036.RAA02420@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Fw: "Free and Open Source Software" (fwd) In-Reply-To: <01f401bd6d4f$4a70eac0$1d43a8c0@shanes.personalogic.com> from David Shanes at "Apr 21, 98 10:59:55 am" To: dshanes@personalogic.com (David Shanes) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:36:45 -0700 (PDT) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, brett@lariat.org, grog@lemis.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David, great work! NPR has a large following among people that can influence organizations and companies......getting NPR to mention FreeBSD is an step along the road to establishing a larger FreeBSD server presence. jmb David Shanes wrote: > Here is their reply... > > Between this and James Love's letter -- feedback works ! > > David > > _____________________________________________________ > David Shanes 7535 Metropolitan Drive > dshanes@personalogic.com San Diego, CA 92108 > Database Developer (619) 220-5800 x228 > PersonaLogic, Inc. (619) 220-5899 (fax) > http://www.PersonaLogic.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: SciFri Web Producer > To: David Shanes > Date: Tuesday, April 21, 1998 5:58 AM > Subject: "Free and Open Source Software" (fwd) > > > >Sir - thanks for your note and your comments. The fact that BSD was left > >out of the program wasn't a conscious decision - it was more a function of > >the fact that in the short time we had, we could only have one or two > >guests - and so the decision was made to go with people who had been > >active political (or perhaps religious?) leaders in the open source > >movement. Had we had more time.... sigh. Perhaps in the future. But I > >will add a note to our synopsis of the show mentioning FreeBSD, and > >providing a link so that people can find out more. I'm out of the office > >today, but should have it up within the next day or two. > > > >Thanks for the suggestion - > >Charles Bergquist > >Site producer, sciencefriday.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 18:00:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06610 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:00:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tok.qiv.com (bN8YfC1U2xiCXgfPS8q0BAtjUFX0aEEq@tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA06496 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 01:00:33 GMT (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id TAA02938; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:59:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA01496; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:49:57 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:49:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Donald Burr cc: Don Morrison , FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Donald Burr wrote: >On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Jay Nelson wrote: > >> >Why not put the "Why Yahoo is so fast" on the www.freebsd.org web page? A >> >> I think we need to be very careful publicizing information that any >> company, let alone one who supports us, may consider proprietary or >> may not want generally known. At best, we risk angering a supporter. >> At worst, we risk lawsuit. > >Wasn't this information published already? (albeit not on the web, but in >another FreeBSD publication) Specifically, I seem to recall a "Yahoo uses >FreeBSD! Yay!" type article in the FreeBSD Newsletter I received last >July or so... Yes, it was -- but I wouldn't assume that a general release for publication. Without knowing the specifics of the original release, I would recommend against republication without Yahoo's express consent. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 18:16:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08576 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:16:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08468; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:15:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199804220115.SAA08468@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Yahoo! In-Reply-To: <353D2E9A.58C608F8@u.washington.edu> from Don Morrison at "Apr 21, 98 04:41:14 pm" To: dmorrisn@u.washington.edu (Don Morrison) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:15:49 -0700 (PDT) Cc: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Morrison wrote: > > >Why not put the "Why Yahoo is so fast" on the www.freebsd.org web page? A > > > > I think we need to be very careful publicizing information that any > > company, let alone one who supports us, may consider proprietary or > > may not want generally known. At best, we risk angering a supporter. > > At worst, we risk lawsuit. > > > > If we don't have an explicit release, the information should be > > considered proprietary and off limits. > > > > -- Jay > > I didn't mean to suggest that articles be posted against the wishes of a > supporter, just that the freebsd homepage could be strengthened in one or more > aspects. we can put up the article that David Filo (co-founder of yahoo) wrote for the FreeBSD news ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 19:21:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21523 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:21:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost1.u.washington.edu (mailhost1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21424 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:21:17 GMT (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from u.washington.edu (dmorrisn@D-128-95-141-142.dhcp.washington.edu [128.95.141.142]) by mailhost1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with ESMTP id TAA13838 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:21:12 -0700 Message-ID: <353D54E3.ED0DB2D3@u.washington.edu> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:24:35 -0700 From: Don Morrison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo! References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Jay Nelson wrote: > > > >Why not put the "Why Yahoo is so fast" on the www.freebsd.org web page? A > > > > I think we need to be very careful publicizing information that any > > company, let alone one who supports us, may consider proprietary or > > may not want generally known. At best, we risk angering a supporter. > > At worst, we risk lawsuit. > > Wasn't this information published already? (albeit not on the web, but in > another FreeBSD publication) Specifically, I seem to recall a "Yahoo uses > FreeBSD! Yay!" type article in the FreeBSD Newsletter I received last > July or so... I was using Yahoo as an example for a more general idea. I haven't seen the newsletter in html format yet (only .pdf). I haven't tried to find out if it's in html format, but neither will the average net loafer. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 19:48:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24868 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:48:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA24769 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:47:26 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3g-2.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.51]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA28897 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:45:17 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980421194606.006aa3e0@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:46:06 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Joey Garcia Subject: Editorial In Press Telegram (local newspaper) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Okay, here's the deal. I'm gonna quote to you what I found in an editorial in a local newspaper. I'm also gonna give you the email address so that you can email the editor so the he knows that there *are* better OS's than Windows 95/NT. Basically, I would like for you guys/gals to flood his emailbox. Not in a bad way though, but if enough of us are vocal enough to let him know that there are better OS's then maybe he'll write about it in the paper the next time. :) Here it goes. "We'd like to think there's a brilliant programmer out there who has a better operating system and is just waiting for some venture capital to get it off the ground. That's what Microsoft's public relations people keep reminding us will topple Microsoft. They're absolutley correct, and we can harldy wait." Press Telegram - Editorial "Microsoft vs. US" April 21st edition Email address: speakout@ptconnect.infi.net PTConnect Web: www.ptconnect.net There you go, now go get them. hehehehe Have fun, and be nice, proffesional and stuff like that. Joey Garcia PS: Did anyone get a good laugh at Bill Gates from his Comdex blunder? I sure did. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 20:08:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27834 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:08:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dns.mail.ida.net (mail.ida.net [204.228.203.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27827 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 03:08:50 GMT (envelope-from muck@ida.net) Received: from falcon.hinterlands.com (tc-if2-12.ida.net [208.141.171.69]) by dns.mail.ida.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id VAA12938 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:02:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <353D5F7D.41C67EA6@ida.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:09:49 -0600 From: Mike X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ppp setup script Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello. I have ppp setup script which I've written, and I would like for a few people to test it out. There were a few messages posted lately saying a ppp setup script was needed. I don't know if it will be possible to setup ppp automatically for everybody, given all the different configurations involved, but there's no harm in trying. The script does not modify any files in /etc or /etc/ppp yet. All files that it writes are written to the current working directory. It has a few bugs, and is somewhat incomplete, which is why I would like some input on it. It can be found at http://www.ida.net/users/muck Thanks. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 20:34:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01676 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:34:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA01669 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 03:34:26 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA12116; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:34:26 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id UAA09837; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:33:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Mike cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ppp setup script In-Reply-To: <353D5F7D.41C67EA6@ida.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 21 Apr 1998, Mike wrote: > Hello. > > I have ppp setup script which I've written, and I would like for a few > people to test it out. There were a few messages posted lately saying a > > It can be found at http://www.ida.net/users/muck The idea to make FreeBSD more user friendly via a ppp script belongs here on -advocacy. I think your script would best be tested out by people on -hackers. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 21:46:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11878 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:46:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA11871 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:46:05 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3g-2.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.51]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA25153 for ; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:44:01 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980421214450.006986f8@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:44:50 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Joey Garcia Subject: Wishlist for FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey all, I'm posting this to freebsd-advocacy because maybe this might help the way that FreeBSD is updated/enhanced so that new users can easily move from a Windows or Linux enviroment. Might help FreeBSD become more user friendly perhaps. I was wondering...does FreeBSD have a wishlist? I assume it doesn't. I am wondering if a wishlist would be helpfull for the Core Team to find out what it is that would make FreeBSD more usable by new users and/or find out what it is that users would like in upcoming versions of FreeBSD. I am migrating for a Linux world, and I find the way that FreeBSD partitions it's drives kinda confusing. Perhaps, simplifying the partitioning process would make things easier for setup. In Linux...my dos partition is /dev/hda1 and my Linux swap partition is /dev/hda2 and my Linux root partition is /dev/hda3. I think it's pretty simple. My cdrom drive is found as the second device on the first IDE controller...therefore it is /dev/hdb. Perhaps this simplicity is a bad thing. I don't know. I gather that in FreeBSD my dos partition (which is 1 gigabyte) is /dev/wd0s1 and so forth. I understand that FreeBSD uses the term "slice" as a Dos partition and "partition" as a FreeBSD partition on a slice. So, my Linux swap file would be /dev/wd0s2 and my Linux rooot partition would be /dev/wd0s3a through /dev/wd0s3f (or whatever). Okay, the problem I have is with all the partition letters. I think it makes things more confusing for new users. Users probably coming from a Windows world. Users probably wanting to try out FreeBSD for their business. Anyways, how about a WishList or something? Joey Garcia PS I've been wondering where FreeBSD is gonna go with USB, any answers? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 22:48:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19483 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:48:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19475 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 05:48:46 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-137.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.137]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA23866; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 05:48:40 GMT Message-ID: <353D8493.C4AA1586@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:48:04 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joey Garcia CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Editorial In Press Telegram (local newspaper) References: <3.0.1.32.19980421194606.006aa3e0@pacificnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Joey - I got a Press Telegram site at ptconnect.com, not .net, but it didn't have said editorial posted. Do you think Gates bit the Editor's head off? Regardless, he got a great letter from me! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Apr 21 22:59:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21568 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:59:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from colossus.dyn.ml.org (dburr@pm6-23.sba1.avtel.net [207.71.222.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA21451; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 05:58:59 GMT (envelope-from dburr@colossus.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from dburr@localhost) by colossus.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) id WAA15468; Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:54:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <353D5F7D.41C67EA6@ida.net> Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:54:26 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Computer Help From: Donald Burr To: Mike Subject: RE: ppp setup script Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Ports Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- [ please direct all replies to freebsd-ports, since this is a (possible) port I'm talking about here ] My secret spy satellite informs me that on 22-Apr-98, Mike wrote: > I have ppp setup script which I've written, and I would like for a few > people to test it out. There were a few messages posted lately saying a > ppp setup script was needed. I don't know if it will be possible to > setup ppp automatically for everybody, given all the different > configurations involved, but there's no harm in trying. Actually, what would be really nice is to have a port of EzPPP: http://www.serv.net/~cameron/ezppp/ This is a really nice Linux GUI (based on qt) PPP setup utility that does basically everything--sets up your chat script, manages your modem, configures the proper DNS entries, sets up the routing table properly, even does connection accounting and statistics. I would do it myself, but I'm not too knowledgable on the intricacies of serial I/O programming and Linux porting of same. (And yes, I tried the Linux binary; it does not work.) Any takers? - --- Donald Burr - Ask me for my PGP key | PGP: Your WWW HomePage: http://DonaldBurr.base.org/ ICQ #1347455 | right to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNT2GEfjpixuAwagxAQGyCgP+I/gdg+iIN0YDvXEpAw8f5uiKSwbq3VfP Rc6ZKIfBIBsP62S7N9AZRa++bOfGAVQyXiuXiNMsCHD9w2kG4VYCkemp5JSXpw3T 7A3VIMOPGC53xtYk1NGB6u+7aTisc7WkO99nawhOHbpt/2zQH9K/4LkPjAVxD9NR hpaEEPrZ6vc= =4cAf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 00:04:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11115 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:04:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA11090 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 07:04:26 GMT (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA09167; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804220702.AAA09167@implode.root.com> To: Joey Garcia cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wishlist for FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:44:50 PDT." <3.0.1.32.19980421214450.006986f8@pacificnet.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:02:55 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Anyways, how about a WishList or something? Not a bad idea - it might help focus some of the developers. >PS I've been wondering where FreeBSD is gonna go with USB, any answers? Work is in progress. From discussions I've read, it looks like something alpha/beta might be out in a month or so. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 02:41:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05533 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:41:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05520 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:41:21 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([192.122.138.250]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22891; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:11:05 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id QAA00657; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:53:54 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980422165353.36930@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:53:53 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: dg@root.com, Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD References: <353BED45.7F185851@uk.radan.com> <199804210108.SAA21683@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199804210108.SAA21683@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 06:08:05PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 20 April 1998 at 18:08:05 -0700, David Greenman wrote: >> I've got an idea for helping promote FreeBSD without costing vast sums >> of money. Why not get together a fully working, but cut-down (i.e no >> source etc.) version and get it distributed on the cover CD's of >> computer magazines? > > Incidently, this has happend several times already with FreeBSD. A few > times I recall immediately in Japan. ...maybe that's why we're so popular > in Japan. :-) I suppose you're saying "yes, great idea". I agree. The thing is, this giveaway must work smoothly with no problems even for the biggest idiot. This means that X is a must, even if it only runs at 640x480. There would be a lot of work behind getting this kind of mini-distribution working. IMO it would be worth it, but it would be a catastrophe to send out a version with which the majority of users had trouble. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 02:44:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA06257 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:44:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06134 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:44:28 GMT (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([192.122.138.250]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA22904 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:13:57 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id PAA00578; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:41:16 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980422154114.33529@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:41:15 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: supporters@nanyang-computer.com Subject: FreeBSD commercial support (was: Should we approach Redhat, Debian et al.) References: <353BCF31.794BDF32@ida.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <353BCF31.794BDF32@ida.net>; from Mike on Mon, Apr 20, 1998 at 04:41:53PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Copying -supporters, so I'm including the complete original messages. Please trim in your followups. On Mon, 20 April 1998 at 16:41:53 -0600, Mike wrote: > Jason C. Wells wrote: >> >> Let me say that I am against the "FreeBSD Inc" organization going >> commercial. Much discussion has been made about what I feel is a >> semi-commercializing process with respect to FreeBSD. This I do not >> like. >> >> In the interest of advocacy, the point has been raised that business >> won't use free software because "Free=not there when you need it." To >> attract more businesses to FreeBSD someone needs to be "there when you >> need it." >> >> Which brings me to my point. >> >> The FreeBSD Inc organization might consider soliciting Caldera, SuSE, >> Redhat, et al to produce a commercically supported version of FreeBSD. >> >> Advantages: >> Wider distribution. >> Commercial support to entice businesses. >> A spot next to Linux on university store bookshelves. >> The first commercial adopter can increase its offerings to customers and >> get an advantage on other Linux resellers. >> Commercial adopters already have UNIX expertise. >> >> Disadvantages: >> Funds being diverted to competitors from loss of Walnut Creek sales. >> Maybe some loss of control over releases >> >> I think there may be a net gain to be had by this proposal. > > I think that about a month ago Jordan posted in > comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc something about providing paid support for > FreeBSD. So, maybe there is already a plan in the works. I assume the > O.S. would still be free, just the technical support would be charged > for. I don't know if this is what Jordan was talking about--a month ago seems longer than I recall--but we're discussing the matter of commercial support at supporters@nanyang-computer.com. You can sign up with majordomo@nanyang-computer.com in the time-honoured manner. We spoke about commercial FreeBSD and decided that the time wasn't ripe, and that it was keeping us away from more important issues. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 04:06:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA16777 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:06:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from colossus.dyn.ml.org (dburr@pm6-23.sba1.avtel.net [207.71.222.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16744 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:06:23 GMT (envelope-from dburr@colossus.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from dburr@localhost) by colossus.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) id EAA25198 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:02:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dburr) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 04:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Organization: Computer Help From: Donald Burr To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The best tool for advocacy... Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- ...is a CD-R drive. I just purchased one of these at a computer show. And let me tell you, these are veritable Advocacy Machines. I've made a special FreeBSD CD-ROM, which contains a fully installable FreeBSD distribution, complete with X and sources. I also put HTML and text copies of the FAQ and Handbook, a mirror of www.freebsd.org, and a set of web pages I created on my own, with various bits of random info, such as what FreeBSD can do, what software packages are available to do , what other organizations/web sites/whatever are using FreeBSD, etc. Of course, I point them to my own web page and web server, and mention very prominently that I run FreeBSD. I've been cranking these out left and right. Giving them to friends. My school has a UNIX class that uses Linux -- I've given FreeBSD to some of its students that want to run UNIX at home, and I'm considering approaching the school and possibly getting them to at least evaluate FreeBSD. More importantly, I am leaving them at every company I do work for (I do some consulting work), I leave a disk there and say "Hey, you might want to try this out..." This isn't as expensive as you may think. Decent SCSI devices are now going for lses than $300 (I purchased my Sony CDU-926S for $289); EIDE devices are really cheap, at $250 or less (ok, you have to use them under either Linux or 95/NT right now, but a FreeBSD driver is on its way -- thanks to Soren Schmidt ) You can get decent, but cheap, CD-R media at computer shows for $1.00 per disk, sometimes less. (Yes, I know, some people say "the cheap media is crap", but I have burned over 50 disks and haven't had a single failure caused by anyting other than human error). Anyway, it's an idea... - --- Donald Burr - Ask me for my PGP key | PGP: Your WWW HomePage: http://DonaldBurr.base.org/ ICQ #1347455 | right to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNT3OKvjpixuAwagxAQFKQAP+JF9GPf5c/1TdfldnjDpKtpEmYSQZhaUD mjnGzbtZlgWKn0mDQ4yLTSEPobvwO0a4S7ucAuQmUVlZs0F1ekwIBsQNjqNskBeg m8YIKDrH+oANt6KULuyRy2Q8p18RAPTd0OsmGAjM2RYMC4za/yprtBUOj7XRst3S UGtMp2pzF5c= =W3Rm -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 06:26:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09078 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 06:26:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kitsune.swcp.com (swcp.com [198.59.115.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA09069 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:26:56 GMT (envelope-from msommer@argotsoft.com) Received: from argotsoft.com ([198.59.115.127]) by kitsune.swcp.com (8.8.8/1.2.3) with ESMTP id HAA26421 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 07:26:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from zack (zack.argotsoft.com [192.168.3.101]) by argotsoft.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA02915 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 07:20:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from msommer@argotsoft.com) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980422072431.006a8708@luz.argotsoft.com> X-Sender: msommer@luz.argotsoft.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 07:24:31 -0600 To: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Mark J. Sommer" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG subscribe FreeBSD-advocacy@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 07:35:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23096 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 07:35:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA23076 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:34:56 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-71.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.71]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA22034; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:28:10 GMT Message-ID: <353DFE54.5BDF9477@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 07:27:32 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: dg@root.com, Mark Ovens , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD References: <353BED45.7F185851@uk.radan.com> <199804210108.SAA21683@implode.root.com> <19980422165353.36930@papillon.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > > I suppose you're saying "yes, great idea". I agree. > > The thing is, this giveaway must work smoothly with no problems even > for the biggest idiot. This means that X is a must, even if it only > runs at 640x480. There would be a lot of work behind getting this > kind of mini-distribution working. IMO it would be worth it, but it > would be a catastrophe to send out a version with which the majority > of users had trouble. > It appears to me that if we think carefully about how much capability we give the users, and start with a less-smudged piece of paper, this would be workable. Remember, we're not worried about them being able to USE BSD, we're only concerned with showing them how powerful it is. For example, with the 640x480x8 X restriction, the only questions they have to answer are "where is your mouse?" and "what kind of muuse?" That's why I suggested a canned webserver+browser application set. It's easy, and it's completely contained within the RAM of the computer. No printers, no modems, no net routing, no sound, etc. If we stay away from their hard disk, it's trivial. However, we can do a lot with that! * the FreeBSD Handbook * xroot pictures * application and graphics demos * tutorials * ??? There are two things that will complicate the picture: 'net access and bootstrapping to their disk. I recommend that we stick to this restricted demo and flesh it out to the extent that it's really intriguing. As to the earlier comment by someone about Mozilla source, remember that here we're not distributing anything other than a fully functioning runtime. We want an advertisement that sells the product, not a working system. Once we hook somebody, they'll be eagerly awaiting the arrival of their Complete FreeBSD set with full working CDROMs! In the mean time, they'll be getting a headstart by surfing the manuals and the handbook. Note that I am not saying that this won't be a lot of work. Just replacing all the commands that write to the disk with NOPs is a major job! --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 11:21:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06801 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06737 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:21:11 GMT (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id LAA28207 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:20:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma028204; Wed, 22 Apr 98 11:20:58 -0700 Message-ID: <353E34E3.308E0840@partsnow.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:20:19 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@partsnow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Fwd: Freeware] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9B6FC0158A52439440426D1F" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9B6FC0158A52439440426D1F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just got this in response to my 'Challenge' posted in various places. Sounds like SPEC might be open to working with us. In looking over the solution provided by Novell, it seems that what they did to achieve that number was to open up massive bandwidth in hardware. I don't have any systems that have 5 PCI slots for 100Base-T ethernet cards, and I don't have any P-][ 300Mhz chips laying around. SCSI-3 we can do, fast-wide disks ditto. Do we have Fibre Channel or SSC boards available to us? Is ATM stable yet? It'd be interesting to see how close we can get to that with less hardware, playing the same game that the other vendors do [RELEASE: FreeBSD/Apache Achieves 75% of Novell's SPECweb96 performance with 2/3 the Processor Speed!!!]. Alternatively, presenting a real-world system would be more valuable to real users. Comments? http://www.specbench.org/osg/web96/results/res98q2/web96-980322-02570.html is the URL of the Novell results, and webmaster@specbench.org will get to them. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  --------------9B6FC0158A52439440426D1F Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA25702 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:50:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from orange.ucr.edu(138.23.225.71) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma025699; Wed, 22 Apr 98 08:50:50 -0700 Received: from Boyden215 by navel.ucr.edu with SMTP; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 8:51:09 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19980422154810.009a2280@ucrac1.ucr.edu> X-Sender: trickett@ucrac1.ucr.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:48:10 -0700 To: don@partsnow.com From: Adam Trickett Subject: Re: Freeware >> I not only suspect that you would be wrong in saying current Apache code >> could obtain better results than IIS or Novell's Enterprise port in a >> benchmark, I know it. SPECweb results have very limited meaning outside >> the "how can we make our software give the highest SPECweb results". >> Sure, that is a fun thing to play with and I play with such things with >> Apache to the limited degree that my available testbeds and time allows, >> but it misses the big picture. >>CUT<< >> >> Marc Slemko | Apache Group member >> marcs@znep.com | marc@apache.org > >I'm open to discussion on modifications of the challenge, although I think I've >made a fair attempt at uniformity and fairness. For example, tweaking source or >make-world compiling with a pentium-optimized compiler would give FreeBSD a real >advantage over payware, but you notice I've left that out. That is, unless NT is >specified as Pentium-or-better, which it probably is. I should have made the >small-business machine a 486, which FreeBSD / Apache works quite well on, in >that case. ;) Interestingly I sent an email to SPEC pointing out that the SPECWeb is a bit of a joke if Apache isn't on the list, it does afterall have over 50% of the internet market (by the Netcraft best estimate), here is his resposne... |Fair criticism, but unfortunately SPEC cannot control what results are |submitted to us. Those that run the tests decide what results are made |available to us. SPEC publishes all results that it receives that are |in accordance with our rules. | |Past experience has shown that customer demand is the best way to change |what results are made available to SPEC. The more that the marketplace |asks for results based upon Apache, the more Apache based results that |will be made available. Unfortunately without some customer pull, few |have the combination of resources and inclination to submit such results |to SPEC. | |Hopefully, someone will "break the ice" with an Apache result, and that |may start the whole thing rolling... | Alexander. | Parttime Webmaster for SPEC (and yes we run an Apache server...) I think you are right that now is the time to build a decent "operational" Apache server, and show what it can do. I'm sure showcasing FreeBSD or Linux based single processor 486 and Pentiums, may open some eyes, and a dual or quad PentiumPro or PentiumII, should really fly. Given it's as yet lack lustre performance on NT (though very configureable, and 1.3b6 does seem better) I'd skip this for the moment. My 2p (from a garage WebMaster...) Adam Trickett | http://www.darwin.ucr.edu/ Entomology, UC Riverside | Phone +1 (909) 787-6328 Riverside, CA 92521, USA | Fax +1 (909) 787-3681 In line with UCR guidelines: Any opinions expressed in this mailing are personal and do not represent the official view(s) of UCR. --------------9B6FC0158A52439440426D1F-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 11:31:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10194 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:31:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cs.uoregon.edu (nis81.cs.uoregon.edu [128.223.8.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10168 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:31:12 GMT (envelope-from wcarey@cs.uoregon.edu) Received: from statix.cs.uoregon.edu (wcarey@statix.cs.uoregon.edu [128.223.4.84]) by cs.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04530; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:29:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Woody Carey To: Don Wilde cc: Greg Lehey , dg@root.com, Mark Ovens , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <353DFE54.5BDF9477@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: [snip] > be workable. Remember, we're not worried about them being able to USE > BSD, we're only concerned with showing them how powerful it is. For [snip] I don't think I am understanding what you are suggesting here. IMHO we should be very concerned about people Using FBSD, not just knowing that it is powerful. What audience is this for? Surely a physicist would not be concerned with showing Joe User how powerful their linear particle accelerator is? Why try to make something complicated appear simple to lure people in? Perhaps this is not quite on topic. I apologize if I have mis-read something. woody To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 11:36:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11445 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:36:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cs.uoregon.edu (vitalstatistix.cs.uoregon.edu [128.223.202.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11424 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:36:50 GMT (envelope-from wcarey@cs.uoregon.edu) Received: from statix.cs.uoregon.edu (wcarey@statix.cs.uoregon.edu [128.223.4.84]) by cs.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA04913; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:36:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Woody Carey To: Don Wilde cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Freeware] In-Reply-To: <353E34E3.308E0840@partsnow.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > I just got this in response to my 'Challenge' posted in various places. Sounds > like SPEC might be open to working with us. In looking over the solution > provided by Novell, it seems that what they did to achieve that number was to > open up massive bandwidth in hardware. I don't have any systems that have 5 PCI > slots for 100Base-T ethernet cards, and I don't have any P-][ 300Mhz chips > laying around. SCSI-3 we can do, fast-wide disks ditto. Do we have Fibre Channel > or SSC boards available to us? Is ATM stable yet? > > It'd be interesting to see how close we can get to that with less hardware, > playing the same game that the other vendors do [RELEASE: FreeBSD/Apache > Achieves 75% of Novell's SPECweb96 performance with 2/3 the Processor Speed!!!]. > Alternatively, presenting a real-world system would be more valuable to real > users. Comments? > >From what I understand about benchmarks, most vendors do funky tuning to beat their competitors on a benchmark that may or may not be indicative of anything at all. Basically, benchmarking with this sort of nonsense is agreeing to play a dirty political game and and a pointless, losing battle. Why don't we not go there, and save ourselves the trouble of discovering the error of our ways after the fact? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 11:51:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14881 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:51:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14852 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:51:23 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-191.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.191]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA19620; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:49:02 GMT Message-ID: <353E3B82.2D7540FE@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:48:34 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Woody Carey CC: Greg Lehey , dg@root.com, Mark Ovens , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Woody Carey wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > > [snip] > > be workable. Remember, we're not worried about them being able to USE > > BSD, we're only concerned with showing them how powerful it is. For > > [snip] > > I don't think I am understanding what you are suggesting here. IMHO > we should be very concerned about people Using FBSD, not just knowing that > it is powerful. What audience is this for? Surely a physicist would not > be concerned with showing Joe User how powerful their linear particle > accelerator is? Why try to make something complicated appear simple to > lure people in? To use your example, we want to show Joe Congressman that it can do neat things that he's willing to pay for. In the real world, this is Joe Boss. Actually, [and my father worked at LANL for many years, he can attest to this] lots of their time was spent making wow-gosh-gee-whiz demos to impress Congress, DOD and media people. I'm not trying to imply that setup to do these things is simple, only that it can do amazing things when set up. The reality is that many users will fall away when they discover that it takes some thought to understand [even if it still doesn't crash!], but some will stay, and it doesn't take much of a percentage of a few hundred thousand disk-testers to stick to add measurably to our user base. Some smaller percentage of those will actually learn enough that they start to get the courage to contribute code, as I'm now just starting to do myself after almost 3 years of FreeBSD experience. The big point is that we will impress all of those users who take the time to load the disk, and if they ever do need a serious OS, they will consider FreeBSD in a positive light. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 11:52:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15254 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:52:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cs.uoregon.edu (asterix.cs.uoregon.edu [128.223.8.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15213 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:52:15 GMT (envelope-from wcarey@cs.uoregon.edu) Received: from statix.cs.uoregon.edu (wcarey@statix.cs.uoregon.edu [128.223.4.84]) by cs.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA05822; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:51:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:51:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Woody Carey To: Don Wilde cc: Greg Lehey , dg@root.com, Mark Ovens , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <353E3B82.2D7540FE@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: [snip] > > I don't think I am understanding what you are suggesting here. IMHO > > we should be very concerned about people Using FBSD, not just knowing that > > it is powerful. What audience is this for? Surely a physicist would not > > be concerned with showing Joe User how powerful their linear particle > > accelerator is? Why try to make something complicated appear simple to > > lure people in? > > To use your example, we want to show Joe Congressman that it can do neat > things that he's willing to pay for. In the real world, this is Joe > Boss. Actually, [and my father worked at LANL for many years, he can > attest to this] lots of their time was spent making wow-gosh-gee-whiz > demos to impress Congress, DOD and media people. > > I'm not trying to imply that setup to do these things is simple, only > that it can do amazing things when set up. The reality is that many > users will fall away when they discover that it takes some thought to > understand [even if it still doesn't crash!], but some will stay, and it > doesn't take much of a percentage of a few hundred thousand disk-testers > to stick to add measurably to our user base. Some smaller percentage of > those will actually learn enough that they start to get the courage to > contribute code, as I'm now just starting to do myself after almost 3 > years of FreeBSD experience. The big point is that we will impress all > of those users who take the time to load the disk, and if they ever do > need a serious OS, they will consider FreeBSD in a positive light. > I whole heartedly agree with you. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 11:56:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16461 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:56:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16401 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:56:48 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-191.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.191]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA71676; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:56:31 GMT Message-ID: <353E3D42.F9EF88EC@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:56:02 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Woody Carey CC: Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Freeware] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Woody Carey wrote: > >From what I understand about benchmarks, most vendors do funky tuning to > beat their competitors on a benchmark that may or may not be indicative of > anything at all. Basically, benchmarking with this sort of nonsense is > agreeing to play a dirty political game and and a pointless, losing > battle. Why don't we not go there, and save ourselves the trouble of > discovering the error of our ways after the fact? > Visibility, in a word. We can beat them if we are smart. What it means, I don't know. That's why I originally proposed a more real-world realistic challenge in a controlled environment, to eliminate this dirtiness. I'm exploring alternatives for promotion, and an open challenge like this (freeware vs. the behemoths) would make the evening news for a whole two weeks. Where else could we get promo like this??? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 12:16:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21887 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:16:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21779 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:15:57 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (root@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id MAA21232 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:15:12 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id MAA14524 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:15:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:13:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Survey? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I recently posted a proposal that a survey about freebsd advocacy ideas be taken. Absolutely no one replied. Was it not delivered correctly? If no one even saw it then I will repost. If people saw it and had nothing to say, then that's ok too. I find it outside that norm that there was zero replies. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 12:39:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27125 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27114 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:38:57 GMT (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id NAA04515; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:38:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA14229; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:38:53 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:38:53 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Don Wilde cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Freeware] In-Reply-To: <353E34E3.308E0840@partsnow.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > I just got this in response to my 'Challenge' posted in various places. Sounds > like SPEC might be open to working with us. In looking over the solution SPEC really can't do much. You can't have the organization responsible for unbiased creation and recording of benchmark results subsidizing one vendor's tests. They have donated a copy of SPECweb96 to an Apache Group member for testing, though, but setting up a decent network to use it on is another issue because it requires ugly OS configurations and the license is location-limited. The fact is that all the top results there take $$$ worth of hardware, not just for the server but for some massive clients too. That is hard for most free software projects to deal with unless a member is lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time with the right resources to borrow. > provided by Novell, it seems that what they did to achieve that number was to > open up massive bandwidth in hardware.. I don't have any systems that have 5 PCI > slots for 100Base-T ethernet cards, and I don't have any P-][ 300Mhz chips > laying around. SCSI-3 we can do, fast-wide disks ditto. Do we have Fibre Channel > or SSC boards available to us? Is ATM stable yet? To kick your web benchmark results up high, you need to shove in interfaces with big MTUs. > > It'd be interesting to see how close we can get to that with less hardware, > playing the same game that the other vendors do [RELEASE: FreeBSD/Apache > Achieves 75% of Novell's SPECweb96 performance with 2/3 the Processor Speed!!!]. > Alternatively, presenting a real-world system would be more valuable to real > users. Comments? > > http://www.specbench.org/osg/web96/results/res98q2/web96-980322-02570.html is > the URL of the Novell results, and webmaster@specbench.org will get to them. If you want to push FreeBSD based on web server benchmarks, you would be better off doing so using Zeus (http://www.zeus.co.uk/) if you can get Zeus to go for making a recent available version on FreeBSD, since there isn't much that can keep up with Zeus, in general, although SGI is saying their IRIX-ized NS Enterprise can top it at times. Take a look at http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/features/webserver98/bench.html and http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/features/webserver98/bench2.html This has Apache on Solaris and Linux, and it uses zdbench, but the results are quite clear. Unlike many previous published benchmarks, this is not a result of a misconfigured Apache (well, not an obviously misconfigured Apache anyway; I walked them through the config for Apache on the Linux box, and someone else was with them to verify that things were workingright), and changing the OS to FreeBSD isn't going to improve results by a factor of two or three times. OTOH, the Linux box was running with a single CPU enabled against dual CPUs on the other Intel boxes, and I'm not sure offhand how the Intel hardware compare to what Solaris was running on. Using 1.3 can probably give you a 10-40% boost, but Apache is not optimized for benchmark testing like Enterprise and IIS are and trying to show it kicking ass in that area is, for now, not overly productive. You could perhaps do better if you setup a complete dynamic content thing, since a well written Apache module generating dynamic content can be faster than serving static content. Once you factor in reliability and other aspects of performance under load, you can well end up with a "faster" solution using Apache on FreeBSD than something like IIS but that doesn't show up in benchmark numbers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 14:19:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00746 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailman.naxs.com (MAILMAN.naxs.com [206.31.102.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00689 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:19:32 GMT (envelope-from aiarbuckle@naxs.com) Received: from naxs.com ([206.31.122.183]) by mailman.naxs.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-42723U8000L3500S0) with ESMTP id AAA184; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:20:36 -0400 Message-ID: <353E5DF5.32197EF8@naxs.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:15:33 -0400 From: "Andrew I. Arbuckle" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dwilde1@ibm.net CC: Woody Carey , Greg Lehey , dg@root.com, Mark Ovens , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD References: <353E3B82.2D7540FE@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just a comment from an individual that is looking into an OS for a practical application - It appears from my research that FreeBSD would be ideal for any organization thinking of setting up an in-house Web Server, at least from the cost view, and even if you factor in the learning curve, it still looks very competitive. Perhaps you should address this is your demo idea. Don Wilde wrote: > > Woody Carey wrote: > > > > On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > be workable. Remember, we're not worried about them being able to USE > > > BSD, we're only concerned with showing them how powerful it is. For > > > > [snip] > > > > I don't think I am understanding what you are suggesting here. IMHO > > we should be very concerned about people Using FBSD, not just knowing that > > it is powerful. What audience is this for? Surely a physicist would not > > be concerned with showing Joe User how powerful their linear particle > > accelerator is? Why try to make something complicated appear simple to > > lure people in? > > To use your example, we want to show Joe Congressman that it can do neat > things that he's willing to pay for. In the real world, this is Joe > Boss. Actually, [and my father worked at LANL for many years, he can > attest to this] lots of their time was spent making wow-gosh-gee-whiz > demos to impress Congress, DOD and media people. > > I'm not trying to imply that setup to do these things is simple, only > that it can do amazing things when set up. The reality is that many > users will fall away when they discover that it takes some thought to > understand [even if it still doesn't crash!], but some will stay, and it > doesn't take much of a percentage of a few hundred thousand disk-testers > to stick to add measurably to our user base. Some smaller percentage of > those will actually learn enough that they start to get the courage to > contribute code, as I'm now just starting to do myself after almost 3 > years of FreeBSD experience. The big point is that we will impress all > of those users who take the time to load the disk, and if they ever do > need a serious OS, they will consider FreeBSD in a positive light. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 15:21:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15763 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA15709 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:21:16 GMT (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id PAA04315; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:21:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma004282; Wed, 22 Apr 98 15:20:35 -0700 Message-ID: <353E6D0E.C8EFEB11@partsnow.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:19:58 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@partsnow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Slemko CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Freeware] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG That's why my original Challenge was on identical medium-sized hardware. The idea is to eliminate smoke-and-mirrors completely. I'll keep working on this, I think if we could get some big media organisation to sponsor it, we could make mucho hay. Haven't heard anything back from InfoWorld, guess they are afraid to tweak their advertisers. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 16:33:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01662 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:33:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA01651 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:32:55 GMT (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id RAA12181; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:32:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA15841; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:32:29 -0600 (MDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:32:29 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Don Wilde cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Freeware] In-Reply-To: <353E6D0E.C8EFEB11@partsnow.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > That's why my original Challenge was on identical medium-sized hardware. The > idea is to eliminate smoke-and-mirrors completely. I'll keep working on this, I > think if we could get some big media organisation to sponsor it, we could make > mucho hay. Haven't heard anything back from InfoWorld, guess they are afraid to > tweak their advertisers. Go right ahead if you wish, however it is not wise to push for something that, from what you have said you want to do, is not going to give you any results that show FreeBSD or Apache in better light than other software. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 17:12:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10239 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA10186 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:12:18 GMT (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id RAA07599; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:12:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma007593; Wed, 22 Apr 98 17:11:47 -0700 Message-ID: <353E8708.D887F73F@partsnow.com> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:10:48 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@partsnow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Slemko CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Freeware] References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -- Marc Slemko wrote: > Go right ahead if you wish, however it is not wise to push for something > that, from what you have said you want to do, is not going to give you any > results that show FreeBSD or Apache in better light than other software. If you look at the hardware configs I chose, you'll note that NT will barely boot up in either configuration, especially the small one. That's my real target; Novell is a has-been in my eyes and in the business perception because of their many fumbles. Secondly, I am out to give FreeBSD exposure, whether it is the absolute performance champ or not. We're never going to convince all the bean-smashers in corporations to switch to freeware. They'll go kicking and screaming, you pry my cold dead fingers from my support contract, etc. However, the positive publicity of a "small furry mammals vs. T-Rex and Raptor" Challenge would do wonders for both FreeBSD and Linux, since both teams would do well, and the press would spin it in our favor. My big-picture goal is to convince just 1/10% (0.001) of Microsoft users to switch to FreeBSD, and 1/10 of them to learn to add to the code base. Consider what that does for our total numbers, and you'll see that we really win even if we don't "win". oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 18:38:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02429 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02352 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:37:48 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrD-40.aei.ca [206.186.204.190]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA01827 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:37:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353E9B54.9E8D0A4C@aei.ca> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:37:24 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Demo & freebsd-*lite* Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, I dont think than freebsd-*lite* or freebsd-really-*lite* is the good aproach. Has a Unix system, its complicated to install. You can do a lot of promotion without having to do a lite version. I explain: You should do a Demo in Java or for win95 (Visual Basic) who will not be a OS but only an overview of what FreeBSD looks and what can it do. How to buy it and where to read on it. I have seen that with OS/2 and it was really interesting and simple. No hour spend to get the thing up, only an overview. And now, I have OS/2 so it have worked for me. Sorry for my bad english Dont spend hour on a system who will work for 50% of the people who try it. Best exemple: Win98 crash in the hand of Bill Gates when he was in demonstration. Pretty Blue Screen. Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 18:40:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02717 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:40:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [204.62.130.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA02479 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:38:46 GMT (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 9189 invoked by uid 24); 23 Apr 1998 01:38:46 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980422184251.00af72e0@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:42:51 -0700 To: Marc Slemko , Don Wilde From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: [Fwd: Freeware] Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <353E34E3.308E0840@partsnow.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:38 PM 4/22/98 -0600, Marc Slemko wrote: >On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > >> I just got this in response to my 'Challenge' posted in various places. Sounds >> like SPEC might be open to working with us. In looking over the solution > >SPEC really can't do much. You can't have the organization responsible >for unbiased creation and recording of benchmark results subsidizing one >vendor's tests. They have donated a copy of SPECweb96 to an Apache Group >member for testing, though, but setting up a decent network to use it on >is another issue because it requires ugly OS configurations and the >license is location-limited. I have the Apache Group licensed copy of the SpecWeb96 software. It's a small white CD and a 33 page manual. I'm willing to loan it to any SF-Bay-area FreeBSD or Apache advocate for testing, as an Apache Group thing. I spent some time getting it to run on a Sun 8-way ES450 before concluding it wasn't worth my time, as I was getting rather silly numbers from it. If someone's in the area and has the expertise/resources to give this a good runthrough contact me. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Optimism is a strategy for making brian@apache.org a better future." - Noam Chomsky brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 19:10:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06755 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:10:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA06612 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:09:50 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-79.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.79]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA59500; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:09:20 GMT Message-ID: <353EA2BA.1973C065@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:08:58 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Andrew I. Arbuckle" CC: Woody Carey , Greg Lehey , dg@root.com, Mark Ovens , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD References: <353E3B82.2D7540FE@ibm.net> <353E5DF5.32197EF8@naxs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Just a comment from an individual that is looking into an OS for a > practical application - It appears from my research that FreeBSD would > be ideal for any organization thinking of setting up an in-house Web > Server, at least from the cost view, and even if you factor in the > learning curve, it still looks very competitive. Perhaps you should > address this is your demo idea. Many of us use it for such. The reality is that if you carefully read the hardware compatibility lists and the Apache docs it's not difficult to set up at all. My company http://www.partsnow.com uses FreeBSD, and 90+% of all our $6M+ of business comes through the FreeBSD systems. Apache configuration is the tricky part, and it's really site-dependant. The truth is that most of it beyond entering your data file root path is actually programmer and sysadmin preference. Jump right in, sign yourself up for freebsd-questions and hwg-servers@hwg.org (http://www.hwg.org), and ask away if you need to. The Apache.org website and the FreeBSD.org handbook both give very detailed info on the setup of each package. There is an O'Reilly book on Apache, but it's pretty far out of date as Apache is moving rapidly. In reality, I suspect that we will push for the Apache distribution to include a little script that 'fixes' it so that it comes up correctly when installed, even if it only shows up as 'localhost' instead of "xxx.yyy.com" I guess one thing you have to understand is that FreeBSD is the ultimate 'all options unlocked', programmer-beware software system. Efforts to restrict its development to any particular path are fought _hard_. In other words, we all like having a keg of dynamite in our hands, even if it means that we have to walk very gingerly when setting it up. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 19:44:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA12516 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:44:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA12423 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:44:18 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3i-33.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.178]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA28803; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:41:38 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980422194222.006a9b80@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:42:22 -0700 To: dwilde1@ibm.net, "Andrew I. Arbuckle" From: Joey Garcia Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD Cc: Woody Carey , Greg Lehey , dg@root.com, Mark Ovens , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <353EA2BA.1973C065@ibm.net> References: <353E3B82.2D7540FE@ibm.net> <353E5DF5.32197EF8@naxs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:08 PM 4/22/98 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: >I guess one thing you have to understand is that FreeBSD is the ultimate >'all options unlocked', programmer-beware software system. Efforts to >restrict its development to any particular path are fought _hard_. In >other words, we all like having a keg of dynamite in our hands, even if >it means that we have to walk very gingerly when setting it up. Woah, woah. Are you trying to say that it's hard to install and setup? Isn't that something that we're trying to avoid....the complications that is. I keep hearing about the push for FreeBSD to be known has a kick ass server, but whatever happened to FreeBSD has a Workstation? I remember seeing a slogan or the FreeBSD.org page that said something like this, "FreeBSD, turning PC's into Workstations." (or something like that) Is that still holding true? I do use Unix based OS's (Linux and soon FreeBSD) at home and I'm not all the concerned with setting up a server, and probably alot of average users aren't really concerned with that either. I just want a stable Operating System with the power of Unix....and I know that FreeBSD fits the bill. Hmmm...I seem to be rambling a bit. Basically, what I wanted to know is what path are we (the freebsd community) going to take FreeBSD. Are we going to take the Server path, the Workstation path, or both? I'd prefer both of course. We've all seen that FreeBSD is a phenomenal server, let's show (let prospective users know and all) that it can be a kick butt Workstation as well. But how are we gonna do that? Any ideas? Joey Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 20:03:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15262 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA15228 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:02:54 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA31406 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:02:49 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id UAA03278 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:01:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: We need hard data to complement opinion (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG By popular demand, this is a repost of an earlier message. One idea was to put out one of those emails with the checkboxes. More than likely this survey would land on an appropriate web page. Right now I am just trying to gather ideas and gage support for such a survey. *** Repost *** Ideas area great. Many of them are shared here on these lists. Cataloging and acting on all of these ideas is nearly impossible. Eventually, discussion should come to action which advances the user base of FreeBSD. Hopefully this message is the genesis of a more concrete approach to advocating FreeBSD. I think that an advocacy survey should be created. Data should be gathered. I can think of a number of questions that can be asked regarding the issue of advocacy. Should FreeBSD go commercial? Should FreeBSD be marketed as competitive with other free OSes or cooperative? Should FreeBSD be dumbed down for the mass market? I could go on. I would rather leave the rest open for discussion by my peers. I hope that this thread generates some "questions" that can be useful in determining a course of action regarding advocating the FreeBSD. Questions that are crafted should provide useful information. Questions should not betray a bias. We can talk about this as well. If you have a pet advocacy idea, then submit it in the form of a question for the survey. We can find out for sure if the idea has widespread support. If this generates enough interest, perhaps we can become more formal in our data gathering mission. Maybe if a good survey can be engineered then we can formally commit it to a web page. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 20:23:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17111 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:23:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from primenet.com ([206.165.25.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA17084 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:23:02 GMT (envelope-from zeek@primenet.com) Received: (from zeek@localhost) by primenet.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id UAA19545; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:17:14 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:17:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199804230317.UAA19545@primenet.com> From: John Reynolds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: COMDEX CD's ... ??? X-Mailer: VM 6.33 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://slashdot.org/articles/98422204756.shtml Anyone know if there was anything FreeBSD at comdex??? I wonder if Walnut Creek would help us try and do this sort of thing during this Fall's COMDEX??? If the RedHat folks can do it with Linux, so can we ... (sigh) -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= John Reynolds Four Guys' Plumbing -- South Chandler -- M.o.S.T.W. jreynold@sedona.intel.com SPG Central Logic Engineering, Intel Corporation zeek@primenet.com My opinions are mine, not Intel's http://www.primenet.com/~zeek/ Running FreeBSD and loving it! =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 20:23:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17158 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:23:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA17128 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:23:23 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA35834; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:23:23 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id UAA01953; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:22:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Don Wilde cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <353EA2BA.1973C065@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > I guess one thing you have to understand is that FreeBSD is the ultimate > 'all options unlocked', programmer-beware software system. Efforts to > restrict its development to any particular path are fought _hard_. In > other words, we all like having a keg of dynamite in our hands, even if > it means that we have to walk very gingerly when setting it up. I agree. I like having power and choice. (Even if I do lack the full knowledge to wield the same.) That is why I like FreeBSD. I am personally restricting power and choice. I like UNIX not eunichs, if you get my drift! Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 20:28:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17871 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:28:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA17792 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:28:03 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3i-33.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.178]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA08464 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:25:58 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980422202643.006aa1b8@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:26:43 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Joey Garcia Subject: Simple End-User FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was looking around on www.osnews.com and I came across some posting that someone had about beos and stuff like that. Anyways, the important thing is that I saw a url pointing to www.seul.org, which caught my attention. It stands for Simple End-User Linux. Hmmm...so Linux is being worked on for the average end user? Damn. Those Linux guys are sure making things tough to compete. Although, some of you may suggest that Linux isn't the enemy...some may suggest that Bill Gates and Windows NT is the enemy. I guess that's more of a philosophical debate. I don't know. To me, Linux is more of a closer enemy. They're the other Free Unix-like OS that hat a much bigger following. Okay, let's say we're gonna pitch FreeBSD to a guy that's not entirely clueless. Let's say that he knows about Linux and has heard what it can do. Why would that guy want to go to FreeBSD if Linux has more printed support and might end up being "Simple" (as suggested by the Simple End Users Linux). My gf made a statement to me the other day. She pretty much watches me ramble on about Operating Systems and what not so she's a bit clued in to what I'm into. Anyways she said, "FreeBSD might be stable and fast and all that, but Windows 95 is still much easier to use." I really didn't have a comment to her statement, because I understood her views exactly. Just because I know how to compile a program and/or kernel doesn't mean that other people would want to spend the time learning how to do the same, or what not. Anyways, I really do feel that we should try to make FreeBSD a bit more user friendly. Would using Linux as an example be a bad thing? I know that FreeBSD has a much different approach to things and also has a different philosophy, but what's wrong with some idea sharing? I guess maybe I'd like the main focus for FreeBSD to be on: stability, security, and being user friendly. Possibly, in that order too. Any comments? Joey Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 20:37:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19328 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:37:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA19256 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:36:41 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA14624; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:17:46 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id UAA31343; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:16:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Malartre cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Demo & freebsd-*lite* In-Reply-To: <353E9B54.9E8D0A4C@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > You can do a lot of promotion without having to do a lite version. > I explain: You should do a Demo in Java or for win95 (Visual Basic) who I like this. A simple multimedia thing could do the trick in mpeg or quicktime format. Show some "killer" apps. Speak some propoganda. Tell 'em where to get FreeBSD. K.I.S.S. Gaming companies put out trailers all the time. Of course, it is a bit more exciting watching "Thresh" wallop bad guys in Quake than it is wathing "His Coreness" using gcc. A little imagination could make it neat. Maybe we could drum up a simple sound byte for an endorsement. Maybe we could get permission to use a sound byte from the most visible of free software spokes people... (shhhh mr. torvalds) ... supporting free software. If such a thing were done, I would vote for "professional" over "cute". Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 20:37:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19358 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:37:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA19319 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:37:04 GMT (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA19642; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:29:36 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id UAA16106; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:29:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:28:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Joey Garcia cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980422194222.006a9b80@pacificnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Joey Garcia wrote: > Hmmm...I seem to be rambling a bit. Basically, what I wanted to know is > what path are we (the freebsd community) going to take FreeBSD. Are we > going to take the Server path, the Workstation path, or both? I'd prefer > both of course. We've all seen that FreeBSD is a phenomenal server, let's > show (let prospective users know and all) that it can be a kick butt > Workstation as well. But how are we gonna do that? Any ideas? Flick a couple switches in inetd.conf and voila! Instant workstation. You and I all know that FreeBSD can be whatever we make it by configuration. The less experienced user may not know this. I say that the key to doing all of these things (workstation, lite versions etc) is providing the correct level of documentation for that audience. It would be easier to put a link on the website like this... To make your OS a workstation follow these simple instructions. .... than it would be to develop a new distribution out of the existing distribution. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 20:52:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22070 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:52:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA22054 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:51:57 GMT (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-190.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.190]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAB12600; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:51:47 GMT Message-ID: <353EBABF.EE2F9038@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:51:27 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joey Garcia CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD References: <353E3B82.2D7540FE@ibm.net> <353E5DF5.32197EF8@naxs.com> <3.0.1.32.19980422194222.006a9b80@pacificnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joey Garcia wrote: > Hmmm...I seem to be rambling a bit. Basically, what I wanted to know is > what path are we (the freebsd community) going to take FreeBSD. Are we > going to take the Server path, the Workstation path, or both? I'd prefer > both of course. We've all seen that FreeBSD is a phenomenal server, let's > show (let prospective users know and all) that it can be a kick butt > Workstation as well. But how are we gonna do that? Any ideas? > > Joey Garcia Hey, Bear, you're making my point. We want it to be equally configurable as all of the above. It _is_ a kick-ass workstation. I blow peoples' minds when they see my personal station at work, and I haven't even started to get fancy with it. As far as _easy_ to configure, I think it's getting better with every release. Little question marks like default configurations that show silly error messages are slowly being addressed. I just got my 2.2.6 CD's and tomorrow's the day to start deployment. I'm going to make a determined effort to write down all the gotchas I experience with 2.2.6 so I can script the changes I make. Easy? Might as well say building a car from scratch is easy. Perhaps I should have used 'rocketship' instead of 'keg of dynamite', but the idea is that this is the most awesomely powerful and complete package of computer software tools ever made available to anyone in the world, and it's free to be copied a zillion times. That's the message to get across. I don't need drugs to get high on the possibilities of what can be done with these CD's and some dedicated effort to learn how to work with the code! btw, trim your cc's. Everybody on there's reading the -advocacy post, I think. ;) We don't want -advocacy to become just another -chat channel. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 20:59:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23360 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:59:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA23308 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:59:32 GMT (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3i-33.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.178]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA15358 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:57:26 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980422205812.006a0ca4@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:58:12 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Joey Garcia Subject: Re: Simple End-User FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:40 PM 4/22/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Its true but impossible. >Win95 do the job for GUI, even if its cheap and buggy. >I can reply "Buy a Mac" >It will be as Unix, but without a lot of trouble. > >BeOS seems to be the long term solution. I dont think than FreeBSD will one day >be a user-friendly. > >Malartre > Yeah, I do realize that FreeBSD being Unix it's not a total GUI machine. For Unix to be GUI, it needs X. And X is pretty much a third party software thing. Sort of like how Windows 3.1 and DOS were. You know what I mean? Anyways, DOS wasn't all that hard to figure out. But then again, it really didn't do anything. FreeBSD has pretty much everything you can want (networking, stable kernel, awesome memory management, etc) and more. Basically, everything that DOS never had. Anyways, for a long time people used DOS without a GUI. I'm pretty sure they can do it again...but in the form of FreeBSD. Know what I mean? Basically, make FreeBSD so friendly that a simple DOS user can figure it out. That's the point where I'm heading. In order to make FreeBSD like windows, X would need to be incorporated...and that would be a hella headache. With all the video cards and stuff. Personally, I'd like to run Accelerated X when I get my FreeBSD box up and running, and I don't want XFree86 pushed on to me. (I know, I know - with FreeBSD you can pick and choose how you want set up, with XFree86 or not - just trying to imaging how it would be if XFree86 was pushed in order to make it a user friendly GUI enviroment - know what I mean, Vern?) =P Comments? :) Joey Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 21:02:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24435 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:02:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA24417 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 04:02:39 GMT (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@aeiusrD-40.aei.ca [206.186.204.190]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA18653; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:41:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353EB834.38C63532@aei.ca> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:40:36 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joey Garcia CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Simple End-User FreeBSD References: <3.0.1.32.19980422202643.006aa1b8@pacificnet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joey Garcia wrote: > I was looking around on www.osnews.com and I came across some posting that > someone had about beos and stuff like that. Anyways, the important thing > is that I saw a url pointing to www.seul.org, which caught my attention. > It stands for Simple End-User Linux. Hmmm...so Linux is being worked on > for the average end user? Damn. Those Linux guys are sure making things > tough to compete. > > Although, some of you may suggest that Linux isn't the enemy...some may > suggest that Bill Gates and Windows NT is the enemy. I guess that's more > of a philosophical debate. I don't know. To me, Linux is more of a closer > enemy. They're the other Free Unix-like OS that hat a much bigger following. > > Okay, let's say we're gonna pitch FreeBSD to a guy that's not entirely > clueless. Let's say that he knows about Linux and has heard what it can > do. Why would that guy want to go to FreeBSD if Linux has more printed > support and might end up being "Simple" (as suggested by the Simple End > Users Linux). > > My gf made a statement to me the other day. She pretty much watches me > ramble on about Operating Systems and what not so she's a bit clued in to > what I'm into. Anyways she said, "FreeBSD might be stable and fast and all > that, but Windows 95 is still much easier to use." I really didn't have a > comment to her statement, because I understood her views exactly. Just > because I know how to compile a program and/or kernel doesn't mean that > other people would want to spend the time learning how to do the same, or > what not. > > Anyways, I really do feel that we should try to make FreeBSD a bit more > user friendly. Would using Linux as an example be a bad thing? I know that > FreeBSD has a much different approach to things and also has a different > philosophy, but what's wrong with some idea sharing? I guess maybe I'd > like the main focus for FreeBSD to be on: stability, security, and being > user friendly. Possibly, in that order too. > > Any comments? > > Joey Garcia Its true but impossible. Win95 do the job for GUI, even if its cheap and buggy. I can reply "Buy a Mac" It will be as Unix, but without a lot of trouble. BeOS seems to be the long term solution. I dont think than FreeBSD will one day be a user-friendly. Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 21:06:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24988 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [204.62.130.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA24977 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 04:06:35 GMT (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 5891 invoked by uid 24); 23 Apr 1998 04:06:31 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980422210755.00b25140@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:07:55 -0700 To: Joey Garcia , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: Simple End-User FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980422202643.006aa1b8@pacificnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:26 PM 4/22/98 -0700, Joey Garcia wrote: >Although, some of you may suggest that Linux isn't the enemy...some may >suggest that Bill Gates and Windows NT is the enemy. I guess that's more >of a philosophical debate. I don't know. To me, Linux is more of a closer >enemy. They're the other Free Unix-like OS that hat a much bigger following. I am going against my better instincts by posting this, the last thing I need to do is get into a freebsd/linux/windows debate, but this is how I see it: Competition is necessary for evolution to take place - be it in biology, or just about any other endeavor, and that includes software development. For a long time, there was no competitor to Sendmail; and in fact there was a period of time where no major development work took place on Sendmail because it was the default everyone used; meanwhile the environments got more complex, the requirements for security got more intense, and competitors like qmail, smail, and now vmailer started popping up, and now finally Allman is doing active development again. Heck, progress on SMTP was even delayed because no one cared to advance the state of the art of internet messaging software, until Microsoft and Netscape started getting interested in it. FreeBSD needs Linux, and Linux needs FreeBSD. Each needs the other to keep it on its toes, to keep pushing the envelope, to not be satisfied with "good enough". Through compatibility libraries and a convergence of binary standards, we won't have to worry about fragmenting the applications side of things; with enough momentum I predict most major *nix applications will run on both, not just one or the other. So in that model, Linux and FreeBSD get to compete on really what they should compete on, like performance, reliability, flexibility, and the like. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Optimism is a strategy for making brian@apache.org a better future." - Noam Chomsky brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 21:41:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00351 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:41:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00336 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:40:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-190.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.190]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id EAA60576; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 04:14:00 GMT Message-ID: <353EBFF5.D3D23DD6@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:13:41 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Behlendorf CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Simple End-User FreeBSD References: <3.0.3.32.19980422210755.00b25140@hyperreal.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well said. Let's all keep learning and learning to contribute. It is through our efforts that our choice will be improved. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 21:48:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01075 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:48:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01066 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3i-33.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.178]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA21130; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:24:13 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980422212457.0069ef00@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:24:57 -0700 To: Brian Behlendorf , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Joey Garcia Subject: Re: Simple End-User FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980422210755.00b25140@hyperreal.org> References: <3.0.1.32.19980422202643.006aa1b8@pacificnet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:07 PM 4/22/98 -0700, Brian Behlendorf wrote: >At 08:26 PM 4/22/98 -0700, Joey Garcia wrote: >>Although, some of you may suggest that Linux isn't the enemy...some may >>suggest that Bill Gates and Windows NT is the enemy. I guess that's more >>of a philosophical debate. I don't know. To me, Linux is more of a closer >>enemy. They're the other Free Unix-like OS that hat a much bigger following. > >I am going against my better instincts by posting this, the last thing I >need to do is get into a freebsd/linux/windows debate, but this is how I >see it: > >Competition is necessary for evolution to take place - be it in biology, or >just about any other endeavor, and that includes software development. Computerized Darwinism, eh? Survival of the Fittest? >For a long time, there was no competitor to Sendmail; and in fact there was a >period of time where no major development work took place on Sendmail >because it was the default everyone used; meanwhile the environments got >more complex, the requirements for security got more intense, and >competitors like qmail, smail, and now vmailer started popping up, and now >finally Allman is doing active development again. Heck, progress on SMTP >was even delayed because no one cared to advance the state of the art of >internet messaging software, until Microsoft and Netscape started getting >interested in it. I think I see your point...in order for things to get better, we have to try to out-due the other guys whether it's Microsoft or Linux. Is that what's happening to FreeBSD right now? Or is that the point of freebsd-advocacy? To promote the promotion and advancement of FreeBSD. I feel that in order to promote, you gotta be sure that you are better then the other guys. Know what I mean? We already seem to have a few good things going our way, such as a stable system, easy to port software to, the ports collection, great memory managment, proffessional, and the list goes on. Although, it's been stated that FreeBSD lags in the "cutting-edge" department. Although, I understand the reasons for this. Cutting-Edge sometimes involves more problems in terms of bugs or what not. Things are fully tested before released, which I believe to be a good way of doing things. Anyways, competition never really hurt anyone. Unless, you were trying to compete against MS in the commercial world. I guess. But, let's let the competition just make us work that much harder in order to make this community stronger and make FreeBSD better. :) Joey Bear Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 21:55:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02034 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:55:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m4.stox.sa.enteract.com (stox.sa.enteract.com [207.229.132.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02021 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:55:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@stox.sa.enteract.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.stox.sa.enteract.com [127.0.0.1]) by m4.stox.sa.enteract.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA18838; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:55:36 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:55:35 -0500 (CDT) From: "Kenneth P. Stox" To: John Reynolds cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: COMDEX CD's ... ??? In-Reply-To: <199804230317.UAA19545@primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, John Reynolds wrote: > http://slashdot.org/articles/98422204756.shtml > > Anyone know if there was anything FreeBSD at Comdex??? I wonder if Walnut > Creek would help us try and do this sort of thing during this Fall's > COMDEX??? Well, as I said to Jordan in an earlier email, there was good news and there was bad news. First, the good news, whenever FreeBSD 2.2.6 was put on the table, it was snapped right up. BTW, humble thanks to Pat Volkerding ( Of Slackware fame ) for actually selling FreeBSD cdroms. Pat showed the type of attitude and behavior that the rest if us should think about. To him, FreeBSD is a friend, not an enemy. We should all be evangelizing FreeBSD AND Linux, not FreeBSD vs. Linux. Now the bad news, they ran out of 2.2.6 CD's and only had 2.2.5 left as of mid-afternoon Wednesday. -Ken stox@imagescape.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 22:11:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04418 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:11:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04400 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:11:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-4.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.4]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA23910 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 05:11:31 GMT Message-ID: <353ECD71.71FEC34F@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:11:13 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb96 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Okay, here goes. An official copy of the SPECweb96 benchmark has been made available for our use by the Apache Group. Jordan has given this his enthusiastic approval with the caveat that he's spread too thin to lead the effort. I propose that we establish a meeting in Concord, CA (Walnut Creek's backyard) where we get together as many guys and as much hardware as we can beg, borrow or steal, and spend a weekend draining electrons from the power mains and working with high performance software. Our goal is to blow SPECweb96 out of the water with FreeBSD and Apache. I realize not everybody can jump in a car or plane, but if you can be standing by on your 'net connection, maybe we can get an fxtv wired into the web so you can see what's happening, and you can certainly contribute via e-mail. it'll be fun, inspirational and a HOA learning experience. USENIX is in the middle of June, so that limits our schedule choices a bit, and I don't want to put it too far in the future. I therefore suggest the 26th, 27th and 28th of June to do this. That gives us enough time to plan our strategy and gather ideas and gear. I view this as the first stage in a two-pronged PR strategy. This event, at which we assemble and put ourselves to the test is a dry run for my Big Idea, which is that we find a national media sponsor to field a "Small furry mammals vs. T-Rex and Raptor" Challenge much as I outlined in an earlier post. The opportunity for visibility is just too big to pass up, what with freeware on the rise and Microsoft under heavy fire from all sides. We have to jump on it!!! I will take on the role of coordinator for this, since it was my big mouth that opened up the thread. I need the following things to pull this off: * Local guys who can do site scouting and prep work * Committments of time and expertise * Hardware that can be loaned to the effort * Money to FreeBSD.org for pizza, caffiene and other necessities * Feedback and warm fuzzies * Lots of other things I need you guys to suggest. --> Don Wilde, dwilde1@ibm.net aka Don@PartsNow.com aka phone 818-718-6999 aka beep 818-372-5223 in that order To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 22:23:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06522 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:23:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06515 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:23:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA17973; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804230522.WAA17973@implode.root.com> To: Joey Garcia cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:42:22 PDT." <3.0.1.32.19980422194222.006a9b80@pacificnet.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:22:06 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Hmmm...I seem to be rambling a bit. Basically, what I wanted to know is >what path are we (the freebsd community) going to take FreeBSD. Are we >going to take the Server path, the Workstation path, or both? I'd prefer >both of course. We've all seen that FreeBSD is a phenomenal server, let's >show (let prospective users know and all) that it can be a kick butt >Workstation as well. But how are we gonna do that? Any ideas? The answer to this is that it will go in the direction that the users and developers take it. Most of the current set of developers are interested in taking it in the server direction, so that's where the focus has been. If a bunch of people come along with an interest in the desktop, then FreeBSD will go in both directions - they aren't mutually exclusive, after all. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 22:37:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07934 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:37:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07923 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:37:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA18088; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:34:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804230534.WAA18088@implode.root.com> To: "Kenneth P. Stox" cc: John Reynolds , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: COMDEX CD's ... ??? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:55:35 CDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:34:57 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, John Reynolds wrote: > >> http://slashdot.org/articles/98422204756.shtml >> >> Anyone know if there was anything FreeBSD at Comdex??? I wonder if Walnut >> Creek would help us try and do this sort of thing during this Fall's >> COMDEX??? > >Well, as I said to Jordan in an earlier email, there was good news and >there was bad news. > > First, the good news, whenever FreeBSD 2.2.6 was put on the table, >it was snapped right up. BTW, humble thanks to Pat Volkerding ( Of >Slackware fame ) for actually selling FreeBSD cdroms. Pat showed the type >of attitude and behavior that the rest if us should think about. To him, >FreeBSD is a friend, not an enemy. We should all be evangelizing FreeBSD >AND Linux, not FreeBSD vs. Linux. Amen, brother. The true enemy is Microsoft. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Apr 22 22:50:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09206 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:50:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09144 for ; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:50:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA18267; Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:48:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804230548.WAA18267@implode.root.com> To: Brian Behlendorf cc: Joey Garcia , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Simple End-User FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:07:55 PDT." <3.0.3.32.19980422210755.00b25140@hyperreal.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:48:26 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >At 08:26 PM 4/22/98 -0700, Joey Garcia wrote: >>Although, some of you may suggest that Linux isn't the enemy...some may >>suggest that Bill Gates and Windows NT is the enemy. I guess that's more >>of a philosophical debate. I don't know. To me, Linux is more of a closer >>enemy. They're the other Free Unix-like OS that hat a much bigger following. For those that have been in this for awhile like me, the battle is Windows vs. Unix. Which variants of Unix aren't important; what's at stack is the very philosophy of free and creative thinking. You say: Whoa! What has he been smoking! Actually Van Jacobson (father of TCP/IP) put it best (paraphrased) 'With Windows, all you can do is what they let you do. If there isn't a button for it, then you can't do it. That's the fundamental difference between Windows and Unix - With Unix you can string arbitrary commands together (using pipes) and do something much grander then the individual components would seemingly allow.' -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 01:07:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA26281 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:07:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA26266 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:07:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id BAA23696; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:07:27 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id BAA06524; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:05:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: David Greenman cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199804230522.WAA17973@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, David Greenman wrote: > FreeBSD will go in both directions - they aren't mutually exclusive, after > all. Here Here! (one of these days I will figure out how to spell this) I would go so far as to say that FreeBSD has already gone in that direction. I just directed a fellow to 'man inetd' to make his server a workstation. Seriously, Just because you have all that power under the hood doesn't mean you need to use it all. (hmmm... I am sounding like my dad did when I had a musclecar :)) If someone can tell me that there is a "more than semantic" distinction between a workstation and a server, then perhaps my comments are unwarranted. If we really feel that we should push a "workstation" then all we have to do is spin doctor one on the website. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 01:27:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29097 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:27:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from m1.gdr.net.au (root@dub032.pronet.net.au [203.34.103.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA29087 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:26:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@pronet.net.au) Received: from right.gdr.net.au (right.gdr.net.au [192.168.0.2]) by m1.gdr.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA18551 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:29:31 +1000 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980423182935.007eda40@m1.gdr.net.au> X-Sender: right@m1.gdr.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:29:35 +1000 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: phil grainger Subject: a lite version of freebsd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id BAA29093 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG hey, If you guys how keep suggesting a distributable version of freebsd are serious, checkout pico-bsd in the experimental part of the freebsd distribution. runs on a floppy, with a little tuning you could make it win32 compatible and that would be suitable for cd-distribution (along with some html based how-to's) it would also make good press (freebsd on a floppy!) phil ô¿ô To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 02:43:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA06405 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:43:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA06398 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 02:43:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from (uk.radan.com) [158.152.75.22] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ySIXX-0004wO-00; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:43:35 +0100 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id KAA03854; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:42:51 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07795; Thu, 23 Apr 98 10:42:49 BST Message-Id: <353F0D06.B09F0B57@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:42:30 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: COMDEX CD's ... ??? References: <199804230534.WAA18088@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Greenman wrote: > > > > >On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, John Reynolds wrote: > > > > First, the good news, whenever FreeBSD 2.2.6 was put on the table, > >it was snapped right up. BTW, humble thanks to Pat Volkerding ( Of > >Slackware fame ) for actually selling FreeBSD cdroms. Pat showed the type > >of attitude and behavior that the rest if us should think about. To him, > >FreeBSD is a friend, not an enemy. We should all be evangelizing FreeBSD > >AND Linux, not FreeBSD vs. Linux. > > Amen, brother. The true enemy is Microsoft. How true. All this talk of "competition", "enemy" etc between FreeBSD & Linux is total nonesense. Both are free Unixes, driven by peoples' enthusiasm for the product not commercial ventures driven by the desire to be as rich as Bill. Surely competition is something that should be left to the commercial world. Co-operation is more appropriate to FreeBSD & Linux, binaries that run under both OS's for instance. FreeBSD & Linux are 2 of a kind, even though they may have different goals and different ways of doing things. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Mark Ovens *====================================* CNC Apps Engineer | One of the main causes of the fall | Radan Computational Ltd | of the Roman Empire was, that | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com | lacking a zero, they had no way of | | indicating the successful | | termination of their C programs | *====================================* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 05:02:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA21626 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 05:02:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA21619 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 05:02:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA09061 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:00:30 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <353F2D74.6FDFE67D@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:00:52 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... References: <9804181903.AA12030@ringworld.uniscape.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stefanos Kiakas wrote: > > We should not compete with GUI, but it should be possible to > perform minimal tasks with a GUI tool. > > >> I agree. I only suggested setting up a 'port-driven' GUI/Personal > >> Station because I thought it would be a quick (read minimum effort) > >> answer to the PC wannatryit's we get queries from. I _like_ the > >> CLI, although I'm for 18 years a programmer. > How is placing a GUI tool as a front end destroying BSD? Take > for example adduser on FreeBSD 2.2.5. etc. etc. http://www.caldera.com/coas/ seems to have some very good ideas. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 05:02:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA21663 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 05:02:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA21658 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 05:02:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (dialA3c.aei.ca [206.123.6.80]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA23369 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:33:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <353F26CC.5FE9084@aei.ca> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:32:28 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Simple End-User FreeBSD References: <3.0.1.32.19980422202643.006aa1b8@pacificnet.net> <3.0.1.32.19980422205623.0069668c@pacificnet.net> <353F25B7.2D0B8739@aei.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joey Garcia wrote: > At 11:40 PM 4/22/98 -0400, you wrote: > > > >Its true but impossible. > >Win95 do the job for GUI, even if its cheap and buggy. > >I can reply "Buy a Mac" > >It will be as Unix, but without a lot of trouble. > > > >BeOS seems to be the long term solution. I dont think than FreeBSD will > one day > >be a user-friendly. > > > >Malartre > > > Yeah, I do realize that FreeBSD being Unix it's not a total GUI machine. > For Unix to be GUI, it needs X. And X is pretty much a third party > software thing. Sort of like how Windows 3.1 and DOS were. You know what > I mean? Anyways, DOS wasn't all that hard to figure out. But then again, > it really didn't do anything. FreeBSD has pretty much everything you can > want (networking, stable kernel, awesome memory management, etc) and more. > Basically, everything that DOS never had. > > Anyways, for a long time people used DOS without a GUI. I'm pretty sure > they can do it again...but in the form of FreeBSD. Know what I mean? > Basically, make FreeBSD so friendly that a simple DOS user can figure it > out. That's the point where I'm heading. > > In order to make FreeBSD like windows, X would need to be > incorporated...and that would be a hella headache. With all the video > cards and stuff. Personally, I'd like to run Accelerated X when I get my > FreeBSD box up and running, and I don't want XFree86 pushed on to me. (I > know, I know - with FreeBSD you can pick and choose how you want set up, > with XFree86 or not - just trying to imaging how it would be if XFree86 was > pushed in order to make it a user friendly GUI enviroment - know what I > mean, Vern?) =P > > Comments? :) > > Joey Garcia :-)Well, ask you "why Dos is so easy" Because you cannot do anything. And because all is configured and because no one have to choice something. Ok, Under FreeBSD, you should always need of a good MS-Words-like apps. So under Dos, all user know where is the application Words. Under FreeBSD, I dont even know how Latex work and if I can take SCO WordPerfect. Its because FreeBSD is to-much configurable. Dos is for Dummies and I think its a good thing in some way. Malartre Comments? :-) -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.5 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 07:23:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05583 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (insane@gw.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA05572 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:23:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) Message-ID: <19980423072335.04343@the.oneinsane.net> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:23:35 -0700 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb96 References: <353ECD71.71FEC34F@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74e In-Reply-To: <353ECD71.71FEC34F@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:11:13PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.5-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I wish I could be there in person but I will definately be there via a net connection. I tip my hat to you Don. Ron On Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 10:11:13PM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > Okay, here goes. > > An official copy of the SPECweb96 benchmark has been made available for > our use by the Apache Group. > > Jordan has given this his enthusiastic approval with the caveat that > he's spread too thin to lead the effort. > > I propose that we establish a meeting in Concord, CA (Walnut Creek's > backyard) where we get together as many guys and as much hardware as we > can beg, borrow or steal, and spend a weekend draining electrons from > the power mains and working with high performance software. Our goal is > to blow SPECweb96 out of the water with FreeBSD and Apache. > > I realize not everybody can jump in a car or plane, but if you can be > standing by on your 'net connection, maybe we can get an fxtv wired into > the web so you can see what's happening, and you can certainly > contribute via e-mail. it'll be fun, inspirational and a HOA learning > experience. > > USENIX is in the middle of June, so that limits our schedule choices a > bit, and I don't want to put it too far in the future. I therefore > suggest the 26th, 27th and 28th of June to do this. That gives us enough > time to plan our strategy and gather ideas and gear. > > I view this as the first stage in a two-pronged PR strategy. This event, > at which we assemble and put ourselves to the test is a dry run for my > Big Idea, which is that we find a national media sponsor to field a > "Small furry mammals vs. T-Rex and Raptor" Challenge much as I outlined > in an earlier post. The opportunity for visibility is just too big to > pass up, what with freeware on the rise and Microsoft under heavy fire > from all sides. We have to jump on it!!! > > I will take on the role of coordinator for this, since it was my big > mouth that opened up the thread. > > I need the following things to pull this off: > > * Local guys who can do site scouting and prep work > * Committments of time and expertise > * Hardware that can be loaned to the effort > * Money to FreeBSD.org for pizza, caffiene and other necessities > * Feedback and warm fuzzies > * Lots of other things I need you guys to suggest. > > --> Don Wilde, dwilde1@ibm.net > aka Don@PartsNow.com > aka phone 818-718-6999 > aka beep 818-372-5223 in that order > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- -------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void -------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 07:43:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07963 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:43:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA07922 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:43:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-23.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.23]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA70542; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:43:07 GMT Message-ID: <353F5356.7C915D6F@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:42:31 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb96 References: <353ECD71.71FEC34F@ibm.net> <19980422225111.03898@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Great! Thanks, Josef! First, three plan modifications: 1) I want to have it in BERKELEY, so we can do some historical tie-in's when we do our PR and news coverage. We're not talking a major upheaval here and it's not much to ask in return for the major boost in PR possibilities. 2) I am soliciting suggestions for Corporate Sponsor contact points. Anybody have friendly high-level contacts at Intel who'd be sympathetic? We need hardware more than anything, but there will be cash needs for press release mailings, flyers, stickers, promo disks (such as we have been discussing here) and stuff like renting PA gear. I will make the contacts, but effective entry points would be appreciated. 3) We need a catchy name. Something like SuperPowerFreeSoftwareFest! You tell me! Finally, to set the record straight here. This is not an official Walnut Creek project, nor is it something that Core is going to organize _for_ us. I hope they will officially give it their blessing, as Jordan did privately. I am soliciting suggestions and support, but the final call for everything involved in this event is mine as coordinator and chief bigmouth. If nobody objects, we'll proceed on that basis. [ Of course, if you do object, we'll proceed anyway! ] What it is going to be is a major exposure opportunity, so I'd like you all to consider getting down and dirty with FreeBSD and its tools and start fulfilling these wishes we've been talking about here. I'd really like to have these canned demo disks to hand out to the press and spectators, etc., so they could pop them in their W95 CD drives and see their machine transformed into a real personal workstation. FreeBSD stickers, pamphlets, etc., all that needs design and layout work. Squeezing enough money for printing and CD pressing is not a lot for a few corporate sponsors to consider in return for a name mention and national good-guy recognition in the press. We have to have master copy ready to go at the latest by the end of _May_ if we're going to have everything ready to hand out. Everybody's contribution _is_ going to matter in this. You who are in Italy and Australia and the Ukraine, concentrate on things you can contribute to FreeBSD itself and handout copy ideas, text and graphics we can incorporate. Keep your fingers busy! Amancio, if you're listening, would you work on a multicamera fxtv+sound feed we can wire into the Web? I know all the tools are there, I'd just like you and Luigi to detail the setups we need to give us maximum pizzazz / bandwidth, both for straight html and streaming-media browsers. Sue Blake, how about a Newbie Get-Acquainted booklet? Josef, the first thing I'm going to need from you is a site where we can have it. I need a big, publicly-accessible auditorium (a gymnasium, not with seats) with a solid high-bandwidth web connection and good power. On the Berkeley campus would be best, but see what you can dig up. We'll need to lock that up early so we have a focus point we can print and tell the press. Thanks to all for your support and enthusiasm! All aboard for the Stars, step lively, please! --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 07:46:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08972 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:46:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailman.naxs.com (MAILMAN.naxs.com [206.31.102.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA08938 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:45:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aiarbuckle@naxs.com) Received: from naxs.com ([206.31.122.146]) by mailman.naxs.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-42723U8000L3500S0) with ESMTP id AAA130; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:46:00 -0400 Message-ID: <353F52F6.8D121E48@naxs.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:40:54 -0400 From: "Andrew I. Arbuckle" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: Brian Behlendorf , Joey Garcia , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Simple End-User FreeBSD References: <199804230548.WAA18267@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG For my ?Cents worth, Windows was made for people who do not want to compute, but require an appliance to accomplish something. You should allow your push for FreeBSD to take that direction. In any event, that is my interest in it, and I still use DOS for some things. David Greenman wrote: > > >At 08:26 PM 4/22/98 -0700, Joey Garcia wrote: > >>Although, some of you may suggest that Linux isn't the enemy...some may > >>suggest that Bill Gates and Windows NT is the enemy. I guess that's more > >>of a philosophical debate. I don't know. To me, Linux is more of a closer > >>enemy. They're the other Free Unix-like OS that hat a much bigger following. > > For those that have been in this for awhile like me, the battle is > Windows vs. Unix. Which variants of Unix aren't important; what's at stack is > the very philosophy of free and creative thinking. You say: Whoa! What has > he been smoking! Actually Van Jacobson (father of TCP/IP) put it best > (paraphrased) 'With Windows, all you can do is what they let you do. If there > isn't a button for it, then you can't do it. That's the fundamental difference > between Windows and Unix - With Unix you can string arbitrary commands > together (using pipes) and do something much grander then the individual > components would seemingly allow.' > > -DG > > David Greenman > Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 07:49:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09647 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA09637 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:49:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-23.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.23]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA45704; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:48:49 GMT Message-ID: <353F54AD.F706254A@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:48:13 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: "Kenneth P. Stox" , John Reynolds , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: COMDEX CD's ... ??? References: <199804230534.WAA18088@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Greenman wrote: > >AND Linux, not FreeBSD vs. Linux. > > Amen, brother. The true enemy is Microsoft. > > -DG The true enemy is closed, overhyped, undocumented payware in all forms. Microsoft is just one odious instance of the phenomenon. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 08:21:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15250 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:21:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA15184 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from radan.demon.co.uk ([158.152.75.22]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa1024897; 23 Apr 98 15:03 GMT Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA04737; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:02:51 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16482; Thu, 23 Apr 98 16:02:50 BST Message-Id: <353F5806.1924E7E6@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:02:31 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Demo & freebsd-*lite* References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jason C. Wells wrote: > > On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Malartre wrote: > > > You can do a lot of promotion without having to do a lite version. > > I explain: You should do a Demo in Java or for win95 (Visual Basic) who > > I like this. A simple multimedia thing could do the trick in mpeg or > quicktime format. > But this wouldn't show off two of FreeBSD's greatest assets, it's speed & power. Microsloth puts out lots of this type of demo. Now whilst that is beneficial to MS because users see all the whizz-bang new features but _can't_ see that this years version is 20% slower than last years version. But for FreeBSD that would be a big disadvantage because users wouldn't be able to appreciate its speed & power and, if they copied it to their HD, see that a 32-bit multi-tasking, multi-user, multi-everything OS runs much faster on an old 486-dx66 that Win95 on a Pentium with tons of RAM (How much faster does X start up than Win95 when booted to DOS and then typing "win"?) -- Mark Ovens *====================================* CNC Apps Engineer | One of the main causes of the fall | Radan Computational Ltd | of the Roman Empire was, that | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com | lacking a zero, they had no way of | | indicating the successful | | termination of their C programs | *====================================* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 08:57:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22864 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:57:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.doit.wisc.edu (mail1.doit.wisc.edu [144.92.9.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22791 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:57:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nkauer@students.wisc.edu) Received: from [128.104.222.29] by mail1.doit.wisc.edu id KAA06212 (8.8.6/50); Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:56:15 -0500 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:01:41 -0500 Message-ID: <01BD6EA7.32263340.nkauer@students.wisc.edu> From: Nikolas Kauer To: "'dg@root.com'" Cc: Brian Behlendorf , Joey Garcia , "advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Simple End-User Unix: Learning from Apple Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:01:40 -0500 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > For those that have been in this for awhile like me, the battle is > Windows vs. Unix. Which variants of Unix aren't important; what's at stack is > the very philosophy of free and creative thinking. You say: Whoa! What has > he been smoking! Actually Van Jacobson (father of TCP/IP) put it best > (paraphrased) 'With Windows, all you can do is what they let you do. If there > isn't a button for it, then you can't do it. That's the fundamental > difference > between Windows and Unix - With Unix you can string arbitrary commands > together (using pipes) and do something much grander then the individual > components would seemingly allow.' Thanks for pointing out the "true beauty" of Unix. Maybe we should keep this in mind and just acknowledge that newbie Joe User will not be able to appreciate the merits of FreeBSD, Linux, you-name-it-Unix unless he/she wants to and actually does spend a fair amount of time learning the stuff. In this view, trying to make Unix simple (in the sense of Microsoft's philosophy) is predetermined to fail if you do not compromise its strengths. Rhapsody, originally, was an attempt to do the impossible (easy windows on top, strong Unix underneath). Now, "Apple [...] expects Rhapsody to begin life as a server OS. Third parties hailed Apple's caution in touting Rhapsody as a general-purpose OS. [...] Apple will deploy Rhapsody to people who can use it [...]. It's not at the plug-and-play level yet. [...] The [Rhapsody] plan is complementary to the Mac OS [...]" (http://www.zdnet.com/macweek/mw_1206/nw_rethink.html) Efforts to promote Unix will always primarily address the (naturally limited) number of sophisticated ("hacker-type") users, who are able to work their way and willing to share their insights with the community. We don't care how many we are !!! Welcome to the club. Advocacy mailing list closed. :-) Any objections? PS Just playing Unix's advocate. --------------------------------------- Nikolas Kauer, kauer@pheno.physics.wisc.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 09:21:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29811 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:21:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29626 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:20:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id JAA35614; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:20:31 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id JAA11209; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:20:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:19:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Mark Ovens cc: "Jason C. Wells" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Demo & freebsd-*lite* In-Reply-To: <353F5806.1924E7E6@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Mark Ovens wrote: ** snip off the movie trailer stuff i wrote ** > But this wouldn't show off two of FreeBSD's greatest assets, it's speed > & power. It is an advertisement not an OS. Imagine getting a new lexus with your US news and world report! :) That would go very far toward making me a lexus owner. :) Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 13:55:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23896 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:55:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23850 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (atrios-56.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.83.184]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id PAA04550; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:54:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by darkstar.connect.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01698; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:54:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199804232054.PAA01698@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:54:22 -0500 (CDT) From: Frank Pawlak Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... To: stuart@internationalschool.co.uk cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <353F2D74.6FDFE67D@internationalschool.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 23 Apr, Stuart Henderson wrote: > Stefanos Kiakas wrote: >> >> We should not compete with GUI, but it should be possible to >> perform minimal tasks with a GUI tool. >> >> >> I agree. I only suggested setting up a 'port-driven' GUI/Personal >> >> Station because I thought it would be a quick (read minimum effort) >> >> answer to the PC wannatryit's we get queries from. I _like_ the >> >> CLI, although I'm for 18 years a programmer. > >> How is placing a GUI tool as a front end destroying BSD? Take >> for example adduser on FreeBSD 2.2.5. > > etc. etc. > http://www.caldera.com/coas/ seems to have some very good ideas. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message I agree. The above mentioned Coas project is a good idea for those of us that are tired of the evil empire's OS and desire to try something different, whether FreeBSD or Linux. In some quadrants this is viewed as the dumbing down of UNIX. That is not necessarily the case. Not all users have the time required to learn all the insides of administering an operating system. They simply need an OS that will allow them to get their jobs done, and not become a systems admin. Not every user has the capability to develop the skills to admin an OS in detail. If M$ is the real enemy, and given the fact that most users are not capable of system admin skills, then at least offering the option of an easier to use user interface makes good sense. This is no way represents the dumbing down of anything. It is simply an issue of accessability that will attract the new user. The way things stand, most people are scared to hell of UNIX because of its reputation of being hard to use. Frank -- ----------------------------- "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his thumb with a hammer." -- Marshall Lumsden To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 14:09:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26197 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailman.naxs.com (MAILMAN.naxs.com [206.31.102.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26125 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:08:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aiarbuckle@naxs.com) Received: from naxs.com ([206.31.122.164]) by mailman.naxs.com (Post.Office MTA v3.1.2 release (PO205-101c) ID# 0-42723U8000L3500S0) with ESMTP id AAA144; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:09:31 -0400 Message-ID: <353FACCD.B2F140F6@naxs.com> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:04:13 -0400 From: "Andrew I. Arbuckle" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Frank Pawlak CC: stuart@internationalschool.co.uk, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: salesman is thinking..... References: <199804232054.PAA01698@darkstar.connect.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It might not hurt to remember that Bill Gates did not become the richest man in the world by guessing wrong at what was needed in an OS for the general publics use! Frank Pawlak wrote: > > On 23 Apr, Stuart Henderson wrote: > > Stefanos Kiakas wrote: > >> > >> We should not compete with GUI, but it should be possible to > >> perform minimal tasks with a GUI tool. > >> > >> >> I agree. I only suggested setting up a 'port-driven' GUI/Personal > >> >> Station because I thought it would be a quick (read minimum effort) > >> >> answer to the PC wannatryit's we get queries from. I _like_ the > >> >> CLI, although I'm for 18 years a programmer. > > > >> How is placing a GUI tool as a front end destroying BSD? Take > >> for example adduser on FreeBSD 2.2.5. > > > > etc. etc. > > http://www.caldera.com/coas/ seems to have some very good ideas. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > I agree. The above mentioned Coas project is a good idea for those of > us that are tired of the evil empire's OS and desire to try something > different, whether FreeBSD or Linux. In some quadrants this is viewed > as the dumbing down of UNIX. That is not necessarily the case. Not all > users have the time required to learn all the insides of administering > an operating system. They simply need an OS that will allow them to get > their jobs done, and not become a systems admin. Not every user has the > capability to develop the skills to admin an OS in detail. > > If M$ is the real enemy, and given the fact that most users are not > capable of system admin skills, then at least offering the option of an > easier to use user interface makes good sense. This is no way > represents the dumbing down of anything. It is simply an issue of > accessability that will attract the new user. The way things stand, > most people are scared to hell of UNIX because of its reputation of > being hard to use. > > Frank > > -- > > ----------------------------- > > "At no time is freedom of speech more precious then when a man hits his > thumb with a hammer." > > -- Marshall Lumsden > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 15:54:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13465 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:54:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from In-Net.inba.fr (arthur.inba.fr [194.51.120.34]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13434 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:54:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from phschack@inba.fr) Received: from m2.inba.fr (m2.inba.fr [194.51.120.39]) by In-Net.inba.fr (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id AAA15350 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:58:38 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19980424002738.28df2dfa@mail.inba.fr> X-Sender: pscbis@mail.inba.fr X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (16) Demo [F] Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:27:38 +0200 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Philippe SCHACK Subject: Free Software or not Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA13456 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, Perhaps this question is off-topic for some people, but I think not. I receive an information telling that sendmail will be a commercial product in the near future. Is it true ? If its true, what about it and FreeBSD (and others free Unix) ? -- ----------------------------------------------------------------- Vous recherchez un bien immobilier ? Consultez Immo'Search : http://www.ImmoSearch.inba.fr/ ----------------------------------------------------------------- Philippe SCHÄCK Tél. : + 33 57.24.18.11 IN'NET BORDEAUX-AQUITAINE Fax : + 33 57.24.18.28 Chauveau - CD 239 33420 ESPIET E-mail : phschack@inba.fr ----------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 16:04:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14751 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:04:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA14733 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:04:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 33636 invoked from network); 23 Apr 1998 23:04:20 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 23 Apr 1998 23:04:21 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm7-198.realtime.net [204.96.0.198]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA00968; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:04:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:11:14 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, David Greenman wrote: > > > FreeBSD will go in both directions - they aren't mutually exclusive, after > > all. > > Here Here! (one of these days I will figure out how to spell this) > > I would go so far as to say that FreeBSD has already gone in that > direction. > It has for me. When this sub-tread started, I said "Hey, that's my idea!" :-) I had thought of setting up internal documentation servers for very small companies. They can never find anything. (speaking from personal experience!) I have several pc's at home networked. All run FreeBSD and X. The server runs Apache, NIS, NFS, and holds *all* documentation. If anyone needs to have a question answered, they can read the online docs via a local web page, or search the docs, or search the _latest_ docs at freebsd.org. Selecting a search result will bring up the local doc or auto dial, connect, and go to freebsd.org. Package this configuration and you have a ready to run tool which is usefull and extensible. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 16:24:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17600 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:24:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17582 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:23:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-180.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.180]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA37500; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:23:42 GMT Message-ID: <353FCD58.E3198EC8@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:23:04 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Kenagy CC: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just took a new look through the doc pages on the website. They're expanding in lots of great directions, take a look! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 18:12:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29120 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:12:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29028 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:11:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-164.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.164]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA89486; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 01:11:40 GMT Message-ID: <353FE591.6A5A9F65@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:06:25 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Behlendorf CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Freeware] References: <353E34E3.308E0840@partsnow.com> <3.0.3.32.19980422184251.00af72e0@hyperreal.org> <3.0.3.32.19980422194339.00a32100@hyperreal.org> <3.0.3.32.19980423142234.008b9240@hyperreal.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Behlendorf wrote: > >weekend. Would you be willing to advise such an effort insofar as > >optimizing Apache setup? > > Possibly, and I bet Dean Gaudet would be willing to join us. His expertise > is Linux but he'd be a help here as well. > > >I haven't gotten any response from anybody official offering to take me > >up on the challenge, so perhaps that is our best course: to proceed to > >generate benchmarks in the normal SPEC way, by figuring out the ultimate > >server we can manage to build. Let it be a learning experience if > >nothing else, although I still have it in my head to approach some major > >news organisation like 60 Minutes to sponsor the Challenge. > > Heh. Let's see what results we get first. > > >Thanks for your offer, let's see what I can organize from our FreeBSD > >side. > > Great. Are you a core FreeBSD developer? > Brian > > > --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- > "Optimism is a strategy for making brian@apache.org > a better future." - Noam Chomsky brian@hyperreal.org > No, I'm not. I'm a slightly-better-than-newbie user for 3 years, but I've been programming real-time assembly language and Smalltalk for 15 years before that. I have gotten the official backing of FreeBSD-core in this, and we're going to do it -- as a matter of fact, we're going to do it _publicly_ -- and code-wise we will have all of their support. The idea is that we will gather hardware and stage a media circus at Berkeley, with all the historical connotations in full view. As far as what it will take to win, it's pretty obvious that we're going to have to get some corporate donations of hardware we can use for a week or two to achieve these numbers. Did you look at the system Novell used to make their numbers? It's posted on the SPECbench.org site. Only one CPU (P-II 300), but FIVE 100Base-T cards and twenty PPro200's as clients. The real secret is the cards they used are Intel SERVER cards, and each has a 960 engine (I think) embedded on it with lots of FIFO. There are other numbers for multiprocessor systems, but I think we want to stick to one CPU. That'll be good enough, although it would be nice to have a multiprocessor demo machine humming along doing something neat like a Blender demo with Mesa and 3Dfx cards or something... 8-))) --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 18:14:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29460 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:14:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29093; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:12:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-164.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.164]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA99852; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 01:11:53 GMT Message-ID: <353FE152.AE3A0E0B@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:48:18 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: freebsd-core@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: blessing References: <1836.893362704@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I think the silence isn't for lack of approval, it's more a general > feeling of "go ahead! Just do it already!" :-) Okay, I will. :-P :-) > Perhaps we've been made overly cynical by the literally hundreds of > volunteers who've come forward over the last few months with various > enthusiastic plans for doing this and that, only to vanish utterly and > without a trace shortly thereafter, but I have to say that core is > more reserved these days about jumping up too quickly about anything. > They wait and see first if the latest mayfly volunteer is more than > just a short-lived spark in the night or seems to have what it takes > to not only come up with good ideas, but to pursue them all the way to > their conclusions. Even getting almost 75% of the way to completing a > good idea isn't really enough, unfortunately, and so we try to work > most seriously with that final 0.1% of the volunteer community which I know. The percentage of newbies who join -advocacy is very large. I've been spending time talking to them because almost all of us were newbies once, full of great ideas. Of course, you guys, well, we know the first words out of your daemonish little mouths were "cd /; rm -r *", right? Anyway, some of those guys will drop away, and some will continue, and that's how an aggregate community grows (Sorry guys, I studied sociology in school, not C. My mistake, soon to be rectified!). I don't blame you for being either cynical or reserved. -core is supposed to be -hacking, and all of this promotional stuff is just a sideshow. Actually, it's amazing how much actually does get done, how many ports get added, and how much better the docs become. Gee, even the mouse install's getting better! All this with no corporate scratch! I think you guys should sit back and reflect what a beautiful thing/project/organization you have created, and realize what a powerhouse it is, even with the high noise level on some of the mailing lists. > actually does have The Right Stuff, so to speak. If you're part of > that 0.1%, let's go on to the next organizational phase. :) > Okay, the first thing I'd like to do is to return this discussion to -advocacy. I need enthusiastic people and they need leadership. Second, I need you all to think of who you (-core) can talk to in the original Berkeley movement and what they can do for us. MKMcK and Tim O'Reilly come to mind, and Bob Metcalfe is still very visible but a bit peeved that nobody did anything about the bandwidth problem he stuck his neck out about. The Yahoo guys and Netscape/Mozilla guys would be great sponsors, they have visibility and money. And finally, Intel is still an engineer-driven company. I think we can gather our courage, refine a pitch, and get their help. It's to their enormous benefit, anyway. Finally, we're getting good response from a number of the columnists at InfoWorld. Once this becomes an official FreeBSD.org project, they'll listen closely and maybe twitch a few strings in our favor. Ditto Dr. Dobbs and Web Techniques. We need to fix a site relatively quickly, because a lot of future promotion is going to hinge on it. I'd really like to get a Berkeley campus location if that's at all possible, since few public auditoriums will have a T1 handy. 8-))) > We do FreeBSD and thus have no time for sex, but maybe we can win on > religious controversy. :-) Actually, I hope we stay well away from anybody-bashing. Microsoft and Bill Gates will fall when people demand open source and free usage licenses with their software. That's our job, our evangelism if you will. As far as lack of sex because of software, I can't counter that one because I'm currently in the same boat :\ > > run with this! All we have to do is make it easy for the media to latch > > onto it by creating a packaged event with visual interest and > > prepackaged press handouts and stuff like that. If we take the high road > > "All we have to do" he said. Doncha just love him, folks? He makes > our previous failures at doing this sound so easy. :-) :-) I think the failure was due to being way ahead of the understanding of the general public, not any lack of smarts on your part. You _couldn't_ get the momentum of history moving in the right direction. It was too premature, people just wrote you off as unrealistic geeks. Then, too, FreeBSD's come a long way in the last 3 years. As to why I think THIS effort will succeed where your previous efforts failed, I think there are four key trends moving in our favor: 1) Microsoft is sucking up money and delivering lies and crap, more now than ever 2) Free software in general is news, especially after Netscape's defection 3) The media are starting to educate themselves on the Internet and networking because it's here now and big money surrounds it. 4) Joe Public is more hungry than ever for Roman Circuses and little-guy-beats-big-monster entertainment. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 20:07:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12337 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:07:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12212 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:07:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3h-15.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.112]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA16493 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:04:47 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980423200527.006a1e94@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:05:27 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Joey Garcia Subject: FreeBSD Advocates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey all, I'm making a calling out to all those who are interested in being part of a FreeBSD advocate organization in the Los Angeles vicinity. Let's see what we can do as a group in order to get things done, at least in this area that is. Thanks. Joey Bear Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 22:23:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25055 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA25046 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:23:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id WAA10424 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:23:44 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id WAA03214 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:23:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:22:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: OpenHardware Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is more of a free software advocacy issue but I will address it here. http://www.openhardware.org/ I am not sure if this group is "authoritative." They list only a few companies in their gallery. Anyone here know about this group? FreeBSD is not listed as a supporter. I feel that all free software has a vested interest in hardware driver information being made public. As the humble owner of a non-soundblaster card, I wish drivers would be made public by the manufacturer. I will gladly contact them about adding FreeBSD to the supporters list if such action is sanctioned. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Apr 23 23:39:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA03779 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA03758 for ; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:39:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA01865; Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:37:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804240637.XAA01865@implode.root.com> To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: OpenHardware In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:22:28 PDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:37:47 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >This is more of a free software advocacy issue but I will address it >here. > >http://www.openhardware.org/ > >I am not sure if this group is "authoritative." They list only a few >companies in their gallery. Anyone here know about this group? > >FreeBSD is not listed as a supporter. > >I feel that all free software has a vested interest in hardware driver >information being made public. As the humble owner of a non-soundblaster >card, I wish drivers would be made public by the manufacturer. > >I will gladly contact them about adding FreeBSD to the supporters list >if such action is sanctioned. Sure, we support that sort of thing and you're welcome to contact them. However, I detect some strong bias towards linux in the supporters list, so I kind of doubt that adding FreeBSD will be well received...but who knows. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 02:13:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00384 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:13:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA00333 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:13:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([192.122.138.250]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00849; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:41:26 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id JAA00428; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:13:27 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980424091326.35888@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:13:26 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: Donald Burr , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The best tool for advocacy... References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: ; from Donald Burr on Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 04:02:03AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 April 1998 at 4:02:03 -0700, Donald Burr wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > ...is a CD-R drive. > > I just purchased one of these at a computer show. And let me tell you, > these are veritable Advocacy Machines. > > I've made a special FreeBSD CD-ROM, which contains a fully installable > FreeBSD distribution, complete with X and sources. I also put HTML and > text copies of the FAQ and Handbook, a mirror of www.freebsd.org, and a > set of web pages I created on my own, with various bits of random > info, such as what FreeBSD can do, what software packages are > available to do , what other organizations/web sites/whatever > are using FreeBSD, etc. Considering the number off unanswered questions on the subject in more technical forums, it would be interesting to know what kind of drive you bought, how you run it, and any war stories. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 02:17:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA02049 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:17:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA02043 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:17:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from papillon.lemis.com ([192.122.138.250]) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA00898; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:46:02 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (grog@localhost) by papillon.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.6.12) id KAA00572; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:11:21 +0800 (SGT) Message-ID: <19980424101120.12255@papillon.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:11:20 +0800 From: Greg Lehey To: "Andrew I. Arbuckle" , dwilde1@ibm.net Cc: Woody Carey , dg@root.com, Mark Ovens , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD References: <353E3B82.2D7540FE@ibm.net> <353E5DF5.32197EF8@naxs.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <353E5DF5.32197EF8@naxs.com>; from Andrew I. Arbuckle on Wed, Apr 22, 1998 at 05:15:33PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 22 April 1998 at 17:15:33 -0400, Andrew I. Arbuckle wrote: > Just a comment from an individual that is looking into an OS for a > practical application - It appears from my research that FreeBSD would > be ideal for any organization thinking of setting up an in-house Web > Server, at least from the cost view, and even if you factor in the > learning curve, it still looks very competitive. Perhaps you should > address this is your demo idea. Most people don't run web servers. Many want to, and maybe it's a good "and this too" idea, but if you're giving away thousands of CDs, most people will just want to run it on their machines to see what it does. Summarizing a number of good suggestions, I think the CD should first and foremost: Create a reasonably functional FreeBSD environment running from CD-ROM with an MFS file system for write-only. This can work well on systems with large memory, and doesn't require any changes to the disk. As a second stage, we can offer installation on a spare partition. BIG RED LETTERS must spell out the dangers of trying to install on a system which doesn't have a spare partition (and point out that this isn't FreeBSD, this is elementary software installation). Give them X with 640x480, possibly with the possibility of choosing a couple of well-known boards at higher resolution. For familiarity's sake give them xfvwm95 or another Microsoft-like window mangler, and tell them that we can do better. Put as much documentation on the CD as possible. I might even be able to talk O'Reilly into putting a text version of CFBSD on the CD, but I don't want to mention that yet until the project is more concrete. Point to how this simple demo is just a taste of what FreeBSD can do. Comments? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 07:36:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10099 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10082 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:36:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-56.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.56]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA08470; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:35:47 GMT Message-ID: <35409FC4.616B64EB@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 07:20:52 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An idea for promoting FreeBSD References: <353E3B82.2D7540FE@ibm.net> <353E5DF5.32197EF8@naxs.com> <19980424101120.12255@papillon.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > Summarizing a number of good suggestions, I think the CD should first > and foremost: > Give them X with 640x480, possibly with the possibility of choosing > a couple of well-known boards at higher resolution. For > familiarity's sake give them xfvwm95 or another Microsoft-like > window mangler, and tell them that we can do better. I like your earlier suggestions, Greg, although I like a webserver because it allows us to USE the webserver to feed them the Handbook and stuff, and we can bill it as a fully-functional HTML learning tool. Where I disagree is in the fvwm95. I think that's a huge mistake because then they'll start trying to use it as though it's 95, and things it doesn't do will stand out to them, not what it does do. We shouldn't invite direct comparisons. We should be proud of what we've got. Brett Taylor's setup that he screen-shot a few days ago looks really cool. All this is very similar, just teach them the FEW differences in how windows work. Throw in an active program painting the root window and xscreensaver, and we won't need to actually DO anything to wow them totally. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 09:03:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25711 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:03:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25687; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:03:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id JAA10913; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:02:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma010906; Fri, 24 Apr 98 09:02:39 -0700 Message-ID: <3540B774.CAB68C0C@partsnow.com> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:01:56 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG CC: freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have spoken to several of my lower level salesman types at various companies, and they all could _immediately_ see the benefit to their companies of such a media circus as I'm proposing. (For those on -hardware, seek this thread in the -advocacy archives, I won't repeat it here) With that in mind, I'd like to solicit comments on what the best hardware (single CPU) we can get to give us the highest TCPIP network throughput. If you'll look at http://www.SPECbench.org, you'll see the disclosures for the systems Novell and others have used to achieve their performance. The key to this thing is maximum bandwidth, disk performance, and maximum intelligence on the IO channels. Even if we do it by using a gigabit card set and fiber, we're after exposure for FreeBSD and Apache, not necessarily long-lasting benchmark numbers. Once we have the system spec'd, I have no doubt I can get hardware, because it's very obvious that this will be an enormous bonanza for all major corporate sponsors. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 09:16:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27753 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:16:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27727; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:16:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id MAA13993; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:11:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:16:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: <3540B774.CAB68C0C@partsnow.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > With that in mind, I'd like to solicit comments on what the best hardware > (single CPU) we can get to give us the highest TCPIP network throughput. If > you'll look at http://www.SPECbench.org, you'll see the disclosures for the > systems Novell and others have used to achieve their performance. The key to > this thing is maximum bandwidth, disk performance, and maximum intelligence on > the IO channels. Even if we do it by using a gigabit card set and fiber, we're > after exposure for FreeBSD and Apache, not necessarily long-lasting benchmark > numbers. I have no doubt in my mind that the intel card david is using in WCARCHIVE is THE card to pump out data in insane quantities. I used to love the DEC based cards and still do, and the new tx0 SMC driver is nice to, but I think the Intel Pro/100B witht he fxp driver is THE card to use. get a MB with 4 PCI slots and slam 4 of those bad boys in there. I dont know if there are multiport versions of them but even if not these cards spit fire. Thats for PCI if you want anything else im not sure. I dont know about the ATM driver never used it. We should see what david says. I think even just 4 single port 100B's could outdo by a nice margin whatever novell used. IMO anyway. David? Generally TYAN MB's I think are the best. But it all depends on the CPU/Chipset combo. So i'm going to go look at the spechweb benchmark place before hunting down good combo's. Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 10:21:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06769 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:21:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA06641; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from <@rn.synx.com:root@synx.com>) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA01817; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:23:41 +0100 Received: from rn by s3.synx.com id aa27782; 24 Apr 98 19:08 BST Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:18:38 +0200 (CEST) From: Remy NONNENMACHER Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: don@partsnow.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3540B774.CAB68C0C@partsnow.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: <9804241908.aa27782@s3.synx.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 24 Apr, Don Wilde wrote: > I have spoken to several of my lower level salesman types at various companies, > and they all could _immediately_ see the benefit to their companies of such a > media circus as I'm proposing. (For those on -hardware, seek this thread in the > -advocacy archives, I won't repeat it here) > > With that in mind, I'd like to solicit comments on what the best hardware > (single CPU) we can get to give us the highest TCPIP network throughput. If > you'll look at http://www.SPECbench.org, you'll see the disclosures for the > systems Novell and others have used to achieve their performance. The key to > this thing is maximum bandwidth, disk performance, and maximum intelligence on > the IO channels. Even if we do it by using a gigabit card set and fiber, we're > after exposure for FreeBSD and Apache, not necessarily long-lasting benchmark > numbers. > > Once we have the system spec'd, I have no doubt I can get hardware, because it's > very obvious that this will be an enormous bonanza for all major corporate > sponsors. Interesting points about the specs : "Cache volume: NetWare volume spanning six drives, each with a single 204MB partition" This means they used stripping and only the beginning of disks (where the media rate is the highest). Hard to beat without a well tuned ccd and less than 2 SCSI controllers. (note they also used 10K rpm disks). (PS : 6x4.3Gig for creating a 1.2G filesystem !! what an efficiency !! 4% efficiency is far from a realistic system). Other parameters tend to indicate that all goes to memory and stick there. Is there any specification about a cool-down stage between tests ? Network: "All nets at half duplex". Why not full dup ? they can't ? something hidden with the BT350 ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 10:41:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09493 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:41:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA09375; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:41:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0ySm4C-0002hj-00; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:15:16 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:14:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Remy NONNENMACHER cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, don@partsnow.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: <9804241908.aa27782@s3.synx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Remy NONNENMACHER wrote: > This means they used stripping and only the beginning of disks (where > the media rate is the highest). Hard to beat without a well tuned ccd > and less than 2 SCSI controllers. (note they also used 10K rpm disks). Better off using the hardware RAID0 in a DPT PM334UW. It also has 64MB of write-back cache so, it can re-order i/o to be more efficient. Also, using only tiny bit of each hard drive improves drive level caching. Most drives have only a 1MB cache. Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 10:43:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09928 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA09913; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:43:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0ySm5o-0002i1-00; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:16:56 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:16:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Open Systems Networking cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > think the Intel Pro/100B witht he fxp driver is THE card to use. get a MB > with 4 PCI slots and slam 4 of those bad boys in there. I dont know if That would leave no slots for a disk controller. Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 10:47:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11304 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:47:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11125; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id NAA05306; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:42:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:46:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Tom cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Tom wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > > think the Intel Pro/100B witht he fxp driver is THE card to use. get a MB > > with 4 PCI slots and slam 4 of those bad boys in there. I dont know if > That would leave no slots for a disk controller. Unless its already built into the MB :) -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 10:49:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11955 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:49:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA11891; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0ySmC9-0002ii-00; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:23:29 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:23:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Open Systems Networking cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Tom wrote: > > > On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > > > > think the Intel Pro/100B witht he fxp driver is THE card to use. get a MB > > > with 4 PCI slots and slam 4 of those bad boys in there. I dont know if > > That would leave no slots for a disk controller. > > Unless its already built into the MB :) Well, you can't get a DPT PM334UW built onto any motherboards that I know of... Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 10:54:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13225 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:54:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from feral.com (root@[209.54.254.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA13176; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:54:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from feral-gw (mjacob@gw100.feral.com [192.67.166.129]) by feral.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA25378; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:52:10 -0700 Message-ID: <3540D149.59C4272@feral.com> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:52:09 -0700 From: Matthew Jacob Organization: Feral Software X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.33 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Open Systems Networking CC: Tom , dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have an PR440FX (2xzPPro @ 180MHZ) motherboard. It has an onboard Pro100B and an onboard AIC78XX plus 5 PCI slots. Not bad. But, despite the bad press, the SuperMicro boards with dual PPros or Dual PII's with 8 PCI slots are still better. Tsk. It's a pity you're having to stick with Intel. An Alpha/AXP mother board (e.g., AlphaPC164) with a 600MHz processor really cranks. I mean, really. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 10:56:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13878 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:56:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA13841; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:56:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id NAA07599; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:51:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:56:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Matthew Jacob cc: Tom , dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: <3540D149.59C4272@feral.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Matthew Jacob wrote: > I have an PR440FX (2xzPPro @ 180MHZ) motherboard. It has an > onboard Pro100B and an onboard AIC78XX plus 5 PCI slots. > > Not bad. But, despite the bad press, the SuperMicro boards > with dual PPros or Dual PII's with 8 PCI slots are still better. The more PCI the merrier. > Tsk. It's a pity you're having to stick with Intel. An Alpha/AXP > mother board (e.g., AlphaPC164) with a 600MHz processor really > cranks. I mean, really. Well it isnt by CHOICE :) We don't have an alpha port yet. I still think we can pound novell's #'s 10 times over with a good selection of x86 hardware. Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd..org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 10:59:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14483 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:59:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA14452; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:59:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id LAA22100; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:58:55 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA27836; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:57:54 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:57:53 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > > > With that in mind, I'd like to solicit comments on what the best hardware > > (single CPU) we can get to give us the highest TCPIP network throughput. If > > you'll look at http://www.SPECbench.org, you'll see the disclosures for the > > systems Novell and others have used to achieve their performance. The key to > > this thing is maximum bandwidth, disk performance, and maximum intelligence on > > the IO channels. Even if we do it by using a gigabit card set and fiber, we're > > after exposure for FreeBSD and Apache, not necessarily long-lasting benchmark > > numbers. Whatever you do, your results had better be limited by something other than the network. The drivers are important, the card design is important, etc. but whatever you do the point of the benchmark is to not be network limited. > > I have no doubt in my mind that the intel card david is using in WCARCHIVE > is THE card to pump out data in insane quantities. I used to love the DEC > based cards and still do, and the new tx0 SMC driver is nice to, but I > think the Intel Pro/100B witht he fxp driver is THE card to use. get a MB > with 4 PCI slots and slam 4 of those bad boys in there. I dont know if > there are multiport versions of them but even if not these cards spit > fire. Thats for PCI if you want anything else im not sure. I dont know > about the ATM driver never used it. We should see what david says. I think > even just 4 single port 100B's could outdo by a nice margin whatever > novell used. IMO anyway. David? Generally TYAN MB's I think are the best. > But it all depends on the CPU/Chipset combo. > So i'm going to go look at the spechweb benchmark place before hunting > down good combo's. For web benchmarks jacking up the MTU beyond what you can get with Ethernet can give significant wins. FDDI can help a bit, ATM can help even more. Can't comment on driver support in FreeBSD, and using a NIC with a bad driver or design can hurt things a lot. See ftp://ftp.cup.hp.com/dist/networking/briefs/WebMTU.pdf for some example numbers on the impact this can have. This is the sort of thing you are dealing with when competing against SPECweb96 numbers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 11:07:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16335 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:07:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16295; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:07:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id MAA22418; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:07:02 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA28003; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:03:31 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:03:30 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > Well it isnt by CHOICE :) > We don't have an alpha port yet. I still think we can pound novell's #'s > 10 times over with a good selection of x86 hardware. If you think that then you are wrong. Going into this with this sort of expectation will result in nothing but heartbreak. You may be able to come close to them if you got a good Zeus port to FreeBSD. You won't with Apache. I'm not trying to be negative, just trying to make reality crystal clear. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 11:07:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16629 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:07:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16536; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:07:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id MAA22426; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:07:17 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA28008; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:04:39 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:04:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Tom cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Tom wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > > think the Intel Pro/100B witht he fxp driver is THE card to use. get a MB > > with 4 PCI slots and slam 4 of those bad boys in there. I dont know if > > That would leave no slots for a disk controller. You may want a couple of controllers, depending. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 11:08:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17183 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:08:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA17155; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:08:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24858; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:08:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Marc Slemko cc: Open Systems Networking , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:03:30 MDT." Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:08:34 -0700 Message-ID: <24854.893441314@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You may be able to come close to them if you got a good Zeus port to > FreeBSD. You won't with Apache. Uh, there is a Zeus port to FreeBSD and has been for at least 2 years no? Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 11:10:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17874 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA17790; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:10:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00744; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804241807.LAA00744@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:01:56 PDT." <3540B774.CAB68C0C@partsnow.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:07:00 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I have spoken to several of my lower level sal> Once we have the system spec'd, I have no doubt I can get hardware, because it's > very obvious that this will be an enormous bonanza for all major corporate > sponsors. - Dual 400MHz PII's (I think this will finally pull ahead of the 1M cache 233MHz P6'en). - A BX-based board with as much memory as the PII's will cache. - All of the OS, and if possible all of the web data in MFS. This may involve the biggest, nastiest PicoBSD config you can imagine. - If it won't all work in an MFS, a DPT controller and a small farm of 10000rpm fibrechannel disks. Otherwise, the disk is irrelevant. - No swap. Then talk to the various ATM and gigabit networking people that are playing with FreeBSD. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 11:16:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19701 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:16:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19676; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:16:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id MAA22710; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:15:13 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA28115; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:15:38 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:15:38 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: <24854.893441314@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > You may be able to come close to them if you got a good Zeus port to > > FreeBSD. You won't with Apache. > > Uh, there is a Zeus port to FreeBSD and has been for at least 2 years > no? v1, yes. v3, not AFAIK. If you use v1 you could do it, but I don't know if Zeus implements all the stuff it needs to on FreeBSD to get the best performance. Have never used it on FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 11:23:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21438 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:23:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21154; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:23:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id MAA22910; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:22:56 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA28160; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:23:13 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:23:12 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Mike Smith cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: <199804241807.LAA00744@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > I have spoken to several of my lower level sal> Once we have the system spec'd, I have no doubt I can get hardware, because it's > > very obvious that this will be an enormous bonanza for all major corporate > > sponsors. > > - Dual 400MHz PII's (I think this will finally pull ahead of the 1M > cache 233MHz P6'en). I really doubt that dual processors will give you any advantage even if you were willing to use current. I'm not up on the current state of FreeBSD SMP, but if it isn't beyond the level of a single spin lock on kernel code, you won't win and you could even lose by going SMP. You can actually get worse performance when using SMP on stable Linux kernels than not using it. > - A BX-based board with as much memory as the PII's will cache. > - All of the OS, and if possible all of the web data in MFS. This may > involve the biggest, nastiest PicoBSD config you can imagine. The size of the SPECweb dataset actually changes with the "expected" benchmark results. You are probably looking at... 500-750 megs or so. I don't think you can use MFS, there are certain restrictions on what you can and can't do when reporting SPECweb numbers. > - If it won't all work in an MFS, a DPT controller and a small farm of > 10000rpm fibrechannel disks. Otherwise, the disk is irrelevant. > - No swap. No, you want swap especially if using Apache (because of all the COW pages). It won't be "really" used, but you still need it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 11:35:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25232 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:35:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25210; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:35:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00871; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804241831.LAA00871@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Marc Slemko cc: Mike Smith , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:23:12 MDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:31:33 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > I have spoken to several of my lower level sal> Once we have the system spec'd, I have no doubt I can get hardware, because it's > > > very obvious that this will be an enormous bonanza for all major corporate > > > sponsors. > > > > - Dual 400MHz PII's (I think this will finally pull ahead of the 1M > > cache 233MHz P6'en). > > I really doubt that dual processors will give you any advantage even if > you were willing to use current. I'm not up on the current state of > FreeBSD SMP, but if it isn't beyond the level of a single spin lock on > kernel code, you won't win and you could even lose by going SMP. You can > actually get worse performance when using SMP on stable Linux kernels than > not using it. That depends on where the load is; if it's in kernel space then I'd be inclined to agree with you (and I'd say that the 1M P6 would probably be a contender there). If the load is even substantially in user space, then the story seems to change entirely. If nothing else, having the second CPU would be educational from our perspective. > > - A BX-based board with as much memory as the PII's will cache. > > - All of the OS, and if possible all of the web data in MFS. This may > > involve the biggest, nastiest PicoBSD config you can imagine. > > The size of the SPECweb dataset actually changes with the "expected" > benchmark results. You are probably looking at... 500-750 megs or so. What sort of working-set size is the system likely to have? On a 1GB system, you could probably get away with an MFS like that. > I don't think you can use MFS, there are certain restrictions on what you > can and can't do when reporting SPECweb numbers. 8( Ok, solid-state SCSI disks then. > > - If it won't all work in an MFS, a DPT controller and a small farm of > > 10000rpm fibrechannel disks. Otherwise, the disk is irrelevant. > > - No swap. > > No, you want swap especially if using Apache (because of all the COW > pages). It won't be "really" used, but you still need it. I'm not sure I follow this, but I may be missing a nuance in our handing of COW. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 11:42:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27999 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:42:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27790 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:42:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id LAA31982; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:42:17 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id LAA18719; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:41:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: David Greenman cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: OpenHardware In-Reply-To: <199804240637.XAA01865@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, David Greenman wrote: > Sure, we support that sort of thing and you're welcome to contact them. > However, I detect some strong bias towards linux in the supporters list, so > I kind of doubt that adding FreeBSD will be well received...but who knows. > > -DG I will contact them straight away. Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 12:37:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09691 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:37:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from solidsys.com (www.solidsys.com [206.109.49.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09652 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:37:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cam@solidsys.com) Received: from solidsys.com (camj.solidsys.com.49.109.206.in-addr.arpa [206.109.49.50] (may be forged)) by solidsys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16108 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:36:39 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cam@solidsys.com) Message-ID: <3540E9A8.8F6066F7@solidsys.com> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:36:08 -0500 From: Cam Johnson Organization: Solid Systems Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Fwd: Solaris calls Hotmail shots for Microsoft] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------594CC84E1162DD1EF39DF48F" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------594CC84E1162DD1EF39DF48F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI Cam Johnson --------------594CC84E1162DD1EF39DF48F Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by solidsys.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA14340; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:04:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from saunders@gesundheit.Central.Sun.COM) Received: from Central.Sun.COM ([129.152.1.7]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id JAA28572; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:00:34 -0700 Received: from neptune2.Central.Sun.COM by Central.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id KAA07184; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:59:55 -0500 Received: from gesundheit.Central.Sun.COM by neptune2.Central.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA23864; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:59:54 -0500 Received: from gesundheit by gesundheit.Central.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA08340; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:59:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199804241559.KAA08340@gesundheit.Central.Sun.COM> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:59:51 -0500 (CDT) From: Gene Saunders/Sun Microsystems SE Reply-To: Gene Saunders/Sun Microsystems SE Subject: Solaris calls Hotmail shots for Microsoft To: sunshine@gesundheit.Central.Sun.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-MD5: nvbPGC0BSPlX0l8Q7qKHHg== X-Mailer: dtmail 1.2.0 CDE Version 1.2 SunOS 5.6 sun4u sparc This concerns Microsoft's purchase of one of the "free email" providers (HotMail). They give you a free account, then fill your inbox with advertising (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch). Anyway, I thought you'd be interested in this email making its' way around the company: ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:46:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Solaris calls Hotmail shots for Microsoft Great article about Microsoft being forced to use Solaris for scalability after failing with NT. Great quote from the director of architechure at Microsoft Network: "We looked at all the on-line mail services and Hotmail was far and away the best. It has the most proven and scalable architecture." -----(snip)----- Solaris calls Hotmail shots for Microsoft Microsoft has decided to get the hots for Sun and is using Solaris to run its acclaimed Hotmail web-based e-mail service instead of NT. The software giant has attempted to exchange the Sun/Solaris infrastructure of Hotmail with NT since buying it in December 1997. However, the demands of supporting 10 million users reportedly proved too great for NT, and Solaris was reinstated. In a leaked report, sources close to Hotmail said: "... its whole mail server infrastructure is Solaris. NT couldn't handle it. On the web server, they're running MP Pentiums and Apache on FreeBSD. They're moving to Solaris for threads. The engineering team did its best to run NT - and failed. The issue's being escalated." Hotmail is running Apache's /1.2.1 web server which is not available for NT due to technical difficulties. A statement on Apache's website states: "The road to Windows NT has not been a pretty one. Several attempts have been made, both by Apache Group members and outside folks, but due to a lack of stability and a clear consensus on how to manage a true cross-platform development project, NT is not yet a standard platform supported by Apache." Microsoft is currently recruiting engineers for Hotmail, but NT specialists need not apply. Hotmail's website lists vacancies for an operations software engineer and a QA engineer - and the common requirement is for Unix experience. Judy Gibbons, director of the Microsoft Network, was unaware of the hardware behind Hotmail, but said: "We looked at all the on-line mail services and Hotmail was far and away the best. It has the most proven and scalable architecture." First appeared in Network News, 22-April - 1998 ------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- --------------594CC84E1162DD1EF39DF48F-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 12:38:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09950 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09922; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:38:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-248.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.248]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA42596; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:37:48 GMT Message-ID: <3540E161.4149FA73@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:00:49 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Jacob CC: Open Systems Networking , Tom , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb References: <3540D149.59C4272@feral.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Matthew Jacob wrote: > > Tsk. It's a pity you're having to stick with Intel. An Alpha/AXP > mother board (e.g., AlphaPC164) with a 600MHz processor really > cranks. I mean, really. Sure, and no doubt that's what the Linux guys will use against us as soon as we do this. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 12:38:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10073 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:38:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09910; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:38:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-248.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.248]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA37576; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:37:30 GMT Message-ID: <3540DED7.CD705B70@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:49:59 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: remy@synx.com CC: don@partsnow.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG, brian@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb References: <9804241908.aa27782@s3.synx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I saw that too. Remember, this event is going to be somewhat different than my original challenge. This is raw horsepower, and I hve no doubt that our numbers will be eclipsed as soon as somebody does an I2O system. What I want to do is to grab the world's attention long enough to show that we're a serious player, and then slam them with my original Challenge, once they can't refuse without losing face. Remember, exposure and good press is our goal! The Novell system would be a stupid system from a real world viewpoint. I wonder if there's actually something in the SPECweb benchmark that will prevent us from just loading the whole test website in a RAM disk. [Brian?] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 12:38:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10371 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:38:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09972; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:38:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-248.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.248]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA24566; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:38:05 GMT Message-ID: <3540E505.720BE9AB@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:16:21 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb References: <199804241807.LAA00744@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is my thought as well, although like I said 1 CPU. Does PICOBSD support 2xCPU? BX I like, although we may have a problem getting it. We can disable all console output during the test, so that's even faster than an AGP writing text. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 12:39:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10826 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:39:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09914; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:38:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-248.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.248]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA83758; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:37:42 GMT Message-ID: <3540E0AF.C3B5C576@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:57:51 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tom CC: Remy NONNENMACHER , don@partsnow.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Tom wrote: > Better off using the hardware RAID0 in a DPT PM334UW. It also has 64MB > of write-back cache so, it can re-order i/o to be more efficient. > > Also, using only tiny bit of each hard drive improves drive level > caching. Most drives have only a 1MB cache. I have a friend at Winchester Systems who's trying to sell me a SCSI-3 RAID box, and I think they'd be willing to let us borrow one for a test in return for favorable mention http://www.winsys.com. He says they work with fast differential 2944's as host cards. Is the DPT faster with the direct bus connection? No SCSI at all? Does anybody have experience with these new Compact PCI chassis that have 8 PCI slots? An obvious bottleneck for anything we can do is going to be the chassis limitation on most of 4 PCI. I believe the Compaq Proliant is EISA. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 13:04:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15832 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:04:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA15706; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:04:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01264; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:00:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804242000.NAA01264@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: Mike Smith , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:16:21 PDT." <3540E505.720BE9AB@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:00:29 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is my thought as well, although like I said 1 CPU. Does PICOBSD > support 2xCPU? PicoBSD is just a custom FreeBSD configuration toolkit that builds an entire system that runs out of an MFS. > BX I like, although we may have a problem getting it. We can disable all > console output during the test, so that's even faster than an AGP > writing text. Availibility for BX boards doesn't seem to be too bad. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 13:05:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16397 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:05:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16351; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:05:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01282; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:02:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804242002.NAA01282@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:57:51 PDT." <3540E0AF.C3B5C576@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:02:29 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Tom wrote: > > > Better off using the hardware RAID0 in a DPT PM334UW. It also has 64MB > > of write-back cache so, it can re-order i/o to be more efficient. > > > > Also, using only tiny bit of each hard drive improves drive level > > caching. Most drives have only a 1MB cache. > > I have a friend at Winchester Systems who's trying to sell me a SCSI-3 > RAID box, and I think they'd be willing to let us borrow one for a test > in return for favorable mention http://www.winsys.com. He says they work > with fast differential 2944's as host cards. Is the DPT faster with the > direct bus connection? No SCSI at all? It sounds like there's some requirement to use disks; if throughput is an issue then the DPT is probably the way to go. > Does anybody have experience with these new Compact PCI chassis that > have 8 PCI slots? An obvious bottleneck for anything we can do is going > to be the chassis limitation on most of 4 PCI. These are generally 4 slots and a bridge with 4 more behind. Depending on the configuration and the hardware in question, more slots is not necessarily better. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 13:25:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22188 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:25:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22120 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:24:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA02681 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:24:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:24:21 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: how to get people to use FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There's a fairly nice article on the role of advocacy and how to get people to switch over to Linux (just substitute "FreeBSD" where you see "Linux") from Windows at: http://www.ssc.com/lg/issue27/wagle.html ********************************************************* Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 13:50:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26698 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:50:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26667; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:50:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id OAA27391; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:49:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA28998; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:43:53 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:43:52 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Mike Smith cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: <199804241831.LAA00871@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > > I have spoken to several of my lower level sal> Once we have the system spec'd, I have no doubt I can get hardware, because it's > > > > very obvious that this will be an enormous bonanza for all major corporate > > > > sponsors. > > > > > > - Dual 400MHz PII's (I think this will finally pull ahead of the 1M > > > cache 233MHz P6'en). > > > > I really doubt that dual processors will give you any advantage even if > > you were willing to use current. I'm not up on the current state of > > FreeBSD SMP, but if it isn't beyond the level of a single spin lock on > > kernel code, you won't win and you could even lose by going SMP. You can > > actually get worse performance when using SMP on stable Linux kernels than > > not using it. > > That depends on where the load is; if it's in kernel space then I'd be > inclined to agree with you (and I'd say that the 1M P6 would probably > be a contender there). > > If the load is even substantially in user space, then the story seems > to change entirely. If nothing else, having the second CPU would be > educational from our perspective. Webserving is very kernel heavy and I would doubt it would gain at all from SMP on a system using a single spin lock. That has been my experience on numerous operating systems. AFAIK, the issues that have to be dealt with in the SMP code to fix this are really clear (not necessarily the way to do it, but the concepts) so I don't think there would be a big benefit. > > > > - A BX-based board with as much memory as the PII's will cache. > > > - All of the OS, and if possible all of the web data in MFS. This may > > > involve the biggest, nastiest PicoBSD config you can imagine. > > > > The size of the SPECweb dataset actually changes with the "expected" > > benchmark results. You are probably looking at... 500-750 megs or so. > > What sort of working-set size is the system likely to have? On a 1GB > system, you could probably get away with an MFS like that. It depends on how much more expensive reading from a MFS file system is than reading from the buffer cache. > > > I don't think you can use MFS, there are certain restrictions on what you > > can and can't do when reporting SPECweb numbers. > > 8( Ok, solid-state SCSI disks then. There is a requirement that: The server utilizes stable storage for all data files and server logs. The log file records must be written to non-volatile storage at least as often as once per 60 seconds. A description of the rules is at http://www.spec.org/osg/web96/runrules.html > > > > - If it won't all work in an MFS, a DPT controller and a small farm of > > > 10000rpm fibrechannel disks. Otherwise, the disk is irrelevant. > > > - No swap. > > > > No, you want swap especially if using Apache (because of all the COW > > pages). It won't be "really" used, but you still need it. > > I'm not sure I follow this, but I may be missing a nuance in our > handing of COW. Swap is allocated for pages flagged COW, at the time the pages are mapped, no? If you don't have swap... Because of the design of Apache (more so on servers with more config info, thousands of vhosts, etc.) where the child processes are forked from the parent, you can end up with a lot of COW pages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 15:08:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11761 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:08:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11606 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:06:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA06887; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:04:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804242204.PAA06887@implode.root.com> To: Open Systems Networking cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:16:17 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:04:57 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >fire. Thats for PCI if you want anything else im not sure. I dont know >about the ATM driver never used it. We should see what david says. I think >even just 4 single port 100B's could outdo by a nice margin whatever >novell used. IMO anyway. David? Generally TYAN MB's I think are the best. >But it all depends on the CPU/Chipset combo. Our networking performance is pretty good, but there are still some scalability issues to be resolved. For hardware, the next step beyond 100Mbps fast ethernet is gigabit ethernet. I've been approached now by 3 different vendors to write drivers for their gigabit ethercards. No progress yet, but things seem to be happening. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 16:06:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21347 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:06:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA21317; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: (from asami@localhost) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) id QAA17891; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:05:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804242305.QAA17891@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> To: remy@synx.com CC: dwilde1@ibm.net, don@partsnow.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <9804241908.aa27782@s3.synx.com> (message from Remy NONNENMACHER on Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:18:38 +0200 (CEST)) Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * From: Remy NONNENMACHER * "Cache volume: NetWare volume spanning six drives, * each with a single 204MB partition" * * This means they used stripping and only the beginning of disks (where * the media rate is the highest). Hard to beat without a well tuned ccd Also don't forget that the seek times go way down if you're only seeking between a few tracks instead of the whole disk. :) Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 16:10:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22841 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:10:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from feral.com (root@[209.54.254.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22531; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:09:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjacob@feral.com) Received: from feral-gw (mjacob@gw100.feral.com [192.67.166.129]) by feral.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA26472; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:08:47 -0700 Message-ID: <35411B7F.445BCF20@feral.com> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:08:47 -0700 From: Matthew Jacob Organization: Feral Software X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; Linux 2.0.33 i586) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Satoshi Asami CC: remy@synx.com, dwilde1@ibm.net, don@partsnow.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb References: <199804242305.QAA17891@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Satoshi Asami wrote: > > * From: Remy NONNENMACHER > > * "Cache volume: NetWare volume spanning six drives, > * each with a single 204MB partition" > * > * This means they used stripping and only the beginning of disks (where > * the media rate is the highest). Hard to beat without a well tuned ccd > > Also don't forget that the seek times go way down if you're only > seeking between a few tracks instead of the whole disk. :) > > Actually- not necessarily- I've heard that with some of the newer very high density disks that settle time has gone back up to ~2ms or so (while seek time gets < 8ms...). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 17:02:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00806 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:02:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00740; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:02:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@vader.cs.berkeley.edu) Received: (from asami@localhost) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) id RAA17971; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:02:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804250002.RAA17971@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> To: mjacob@feral.com CC: remy@synx.com, dwilde1@ibm.net, don@partsnow.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <35411B7F.445BCF20@feral.com> (message from Matthew Jacob on Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:08:47 -0700) Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG * > Also don't forget that the seek times go way down if you're only * > seeking between a few tracks instead of the whole disk. :) * Actually- not necessarily- I've heard that with some of the * newer very high density disks that settle time has gone back * up to ~2ms or so (while seek time gets < 8ms...). That still looks a whole lot faster to me. :) Satoshi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 17:16:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05650 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:16:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misery.sdf.com (misery.sdf.com [204.244.213.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA05632; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:16:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tom@sdf.com) Received: from tom by misery.sdf.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #3) id 0ySsEE-000301-00; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:50:02 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:50:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom To: Don Wilde cc: Remy NONNENMACHER , don@partsnow.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: <3540E0AF.C3B5C576@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > Tom wrote: > > > Better off using the hardware RAID0 in a DPT PM334UW. It also has 64MB > > of write-back cache so, it can re-order i/o to be more efficient. > > > > Also, using only tiny bit of each hard drive improves drive level > > caching. Most drives have only a 1MB cache. > > I have a friend at Winchester Systems who's trying to sell me a SCSI-3 > RAID box, and I think they'd be willing to let us borrow one for a test > in return for favorable mention http://www.winsys.com. He says they work > with fast differential 2944's as host cards. Is the DPT faster with the > direct bus connection? No SCSI at all? SCSI-to-SCSI RAID boxes impose latency. Plus the most you can get out a single array is 40MB/s (or 80MB/s with Ultra2). DPT still uses SCSI, but only to talk to the drives. It talks to the host via PCI (132MB/s), not SCSI that the stand-alone RAID boxes use. > Does anybody have experience with these new Compact PCI chassis that > have 8 PCI slots? An obvious bottleneck for anything we can do is going > to be the chassis limitation on most of 4 PCI. I believe the Compaq > Proliant is EISA. Proliant is a series of machines with many different models. Don't buy anything Compaq. Buy a server class motherboard from Intel. I think they make some nice one with lots of PCI slots. Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 19:08:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20403 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:08:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20345; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:08:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-240.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.240]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA25222; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:07:25 GMT Message-ID: <35413FC9.55E5AB2C@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:43:37 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith CC: Marc Slemko , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb References: <199804241831.LAA00871@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mike Smith wrote: > I'm not sure I follow this, but I may be missing a nuance in our > handing of COW. Spinoff from the Bovine Project??? What's COW, never heard of it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 19:22:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23027 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:22:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pendor.McKusick.COM (root@c987316-a.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.1.79.174]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22989; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:22:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from benco@pendor.McKusick.COM) Received: from localhost (benco@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pendor.McKusick.COM (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA25823; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:22:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804250222.TAA25823@pendor.McKusick.COM> X-Authentication-Warning: pendor.McKusick.COM: benco@localhost [127.0.0.1] didn't use HELO protocol To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:43:37 PDT." <35413FC9.55E5AB2C@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:22:18 -0700 From: Ben Cottrell Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:43:37 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > Spinoff from the Bovine Project??? What's COW, never heard of it. Haven't been following this discussion, but I did want to point out that COW is Copy On Write. ~Ben To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 19:23:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23209 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23162 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:23:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id UAA06850; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:23:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA00783; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:23:40 -0600 (MDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:23:40 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Don Wilde cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: <35414701.F1065C80@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG (moved to advocacy) On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > Could you give us some insight into what makes Zeus better, Marc? > It is a server that is better designed, better implemented, and better tuned for high benchmark scores and extremely high load web serving. It has been, for the past few years, _the_ high performance web server. While more products are catching up to it now, I think it is still the fastest publicly available web server that runs on FreeBSD. I'm not going to go through the technical implementation differences between the two and optimizations that Zeus has that give you better performance, but they are there. I don't think it is "better" than Apache and do not recommend it for a general purpose web server, but it is not arguable that Apache is faster for benchmarking than Zeus. In some situations it can keep up, but only a small number. Again, Apache can give you a good performance but it won't likely break any records for the handling of static content; if breaking such records on FreeBSD is your aim, you must use Zeus or write your own to have any chance. When Apache 2.0 comes out perhaps it will be up there, if all goes well. -- Marc Slemko | Apache Group member marcs@znep.com | marc@apache.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 20:40:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00703 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:40:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00643 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:39:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-178.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.178]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA69386; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:39:41 GMT Message-ID: <35415B0B.DB17BE59@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:39:55 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Slemko CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Marc Slemko wrote: > Again, Apache can give you a good performance but it won't likely break > any records for the handling of static content; if breaking such records > on FreeBSD is your aim, you must use Zeus or write your own to have any > chance. When Apache 2.0 comes out perhaps it will be up there, if all > goes well. Thank you, Marc. All right, I still like Apache for all previously stated reasons, but I'm willing to throw this open for general discussion. Anybody else got a feeling with logical reasons to back it? Remember, the goal of the exercise is to promote freeware, FreeBSD in particular. I still think the visibility of the Apache name is a plus, but am unsure as to how far we will have to go with hardware to overcome the deficit Marc assures me is there. Then again, is _either_ better than Netscape, Novonyx or IIS as a webserver? Marc, did you look at the web process tuning they did over the OOTB version? If these are RELEASE versions, they're going to be GP webservers, too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 22:11:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08385 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:11:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08378 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:11:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-54.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.54]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id FAA70784; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 05:11:35 GMT Message-ID: <35417097.71131839@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:11:51 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Slemko CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Okay, I just checked the old marks. First, IIS is an easy target. It's got crummy performance no matter how many processes you throw at it. Netscape Fast Track is within just a few clicks of Zeus on comparable hardware, so I'd suspect that the Novonyx stuff is pretty good at cooking. However, I think we're within the rules to use a flash disk (for sure) or battery DRAM disk (maybe), so that should make up the difference in webserver performance. Remember that this number won't stand for long, no matter what we do. It's just a statement that we're in the game and freeware guys can perform in the same league as the dinoaurs. Right, team? --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Apr 24 23:33:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15346 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:33:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15332 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:32:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id AAA12804; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:32:26 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA01843; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:32:34 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 00:32:33 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Don Wilde cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: <35415B0B.DB17BE59@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I like Apache too (although I am a tad biased) and think you should use it. You shouldn't, however, go into this expecting to kick anyone's asses. Perform well, yes. But having the attitude that FreeBSD + Apache can beat everything and that certain results look "easy" will not end up giving you a good experience. You must be very careful when looking at results listed by SPEC and saying "hey, it will be easy to beat some of those." Some of the systems used are certainly over the $500k mark, perhaps a couple of million. Others use more reasonable hardware but have had _very_ extensive (the stories of what some vendors have done in pursuit of numbres are... well... "interesting" to say the least) optimizations targetted specifically at getting good benchmark numbers. On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > Marc Slemko wrote: > > > Again, Apache can give you a good performance but it won't likely break > > any records for the handling of static content; if breaking such records > > on FreeBSD is your aim, you must use Zeus or write your own to have any > > chance. When Apache 2.0 comes out perhaps it will be up there, if all > > goes well. > > Thank you, Marc. All right, I still like Apache for all previously > stated reasons, but I'm willing to throw this open for general > discussion. Anybody else got a feeling with logical reasons to back it? > Remember, the goal of the exercise is to promote freeware, FreeBSD in > particular. I still think the visibility of the Apache name is a plus, > but am unsure as to how far we will have to go with hardware to overcome > the deficit Marc assures me is there. Then again, is _either_ better > than Netscape, Novonyx or IIS as a webserver? Marc, did you look at the > web process tuning they did over the OOTB version? If these are RELEASE > versions, they're going to be GP webservers, too. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 01:07:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA23540 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:07:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA23525 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:07:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA17542; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:07:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: blessing In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:48:18 PDT." <353FE152.AE3A0E0B@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:07:09 -0700 Message-ID: <17537.893491629@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Sorry for delay] > Okay, the first thing I'd like to do is to return this discussion to > -advocacy. I need enthusiastic people and they need leadership. Agreed. Listen to General Wilde, folks. :-) > Second, I need you all to think of who you (-core) can talk to in the > original Berkeley movement and what they can do for us. MKMcK and Tim > O'Reilly come to mind, and Bob Metcalfe is still very visible but a bit > peeved that nobody did anything about the bandwidth problem he stuck his > neck out about. The Yahoo guys and Netscape/Mozilla guys would be great Erm, what bandwidth thing? Could you maybe send me a private email message clarifying this reference? It sounds like something we should do something about. In any case, I'll try to talk to those among the original Berkeley movement who don't already have a rather significantly vested interest in promoting BSDI's product. :) > sponsors, they have visibility and money. And finally, Intel is still an > engineer-driven company. I think we can gather our courage, refine a > pitch, and get their help. It's to their enormous benefit, anyway. We can certainly get enough of their help to at least publically claim them as supporters, which would be rather legitimising. I'll try and at least make some arrangements with their test labs down here since they've already offered the use of the facilities, I just need to grapple with various NDAs in using their experimental pre-release hardware bits. > InfoWorld. Once this becomes an official FreeBSD.org project, they'll > listen closely and maybe twitch a few strings in our favor. Ditto Dr. > Dobbs and Web Techniques. Anyone with contacts inside these publications are also encouraged to PIPE UP NOW. ;-) Inside contacts really make all the difference, if you have them. > We need to fix a site relatively quickly, because a lot of future > promotion is going to hinge on it. I'd really like to get a Berkeley > campus location if that's at all possible, since few public auditoriums > will have a T1 handy. 8-))) None of the Berkeley ones I know of do either, actually. :( They're pretty spartan. > I think the failure was due to being way ahead of the understanding of > the general public, not any lack of smarts on your part. You _couldn't_ > get the momentum of history moving in the right direction. It was too > premature, people just wrote you off as unrealistic geeks. Then, too, > FreeBSD's come a long way in the last 3 years. I know it has technically, I'm just not sure if the Journalists are ready for it yet. We shall see, eh? :-) Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 07:42:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29125 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:42:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA29105 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:42:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-90.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.90]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA149122; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:41:57 GMT Message-ID: <3541E0A5.539CBA10@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 06:09:57 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Slemko CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Marc Slemko wrote: > > I like Apache too (although I am a tad biased) and think you should use > it. You shouldn't, however, go into this expecting to kick anyone's > asses. Perform well, yes. But having the attitude that FreeBSD + Apache > can beat everything and that certain results look "easy" will not end up > giving you a good experience. Yes, I know. As far as hardware $$$, I've been in this business a lot of years too and my first personal computer was an Intel SDK-86, back in 1980. I watch the trades for hardware constantly as I do a good bit of embedded design. I'm well aware of the tweaks and tricks, because Computer Design usually dissects any configuration that's interesting enough. Although one of our earlier kibitzers made the rash assertion that FreeBSD would kick ass without any trouble, I'm more realistic. In this test, we're going to have to use hardware tricks ourselves. As far as I'm concerned, all's fair in love, war and benchmarking. That's why I'm seeking tricks, although I think battery-DRAM and Flash disks are legitimate tweaks for a real-world high performance webserver. Especially a stable-content 24x7 one. Finally, you think this server _isn't_ going to have close to $100K of hardware in it??? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 07:42:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29155 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:42:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA29147 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:42:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-90.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.90]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA84416; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:42:03 GMT Message-ID: <3541F04D.474FE994@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 07:16:45 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: blessing References: <17537.893491629@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > [Sorry for delay] > > > Okay, the first thing I'd like to do is to return this discussion to > > -advocacy. I need enthusiastic people and they need leadership. > > Agreed. Listen to General Wilde, folks. :-) > Vision creates leadership. I'm just a geek like the rest of you, but I decided that I would _do_ this thing. Thank you, Jordan, for publicly legitimizing my efforts. You others on -advocacy, even the newbies who are watching, each of you can do the same, although I wouldn't recommend a monster project like this. I have seen several other legit project ideas come up here. We will need hand-out material, and that means stickers, mouse pads and the like (Bear, Malartre, Jason C., others?). You can create the _designs_ without spending a dime, and we'll print them in a hurry when we get $$$. Second, the easy-demo-version disk is a real winner, especially a you-*can't*-break-anything version that runs completely off the CD and DRAM. _Please_ keep working on these, because I'm gonna be way too busy to do more than kibitz.(Greg and Eivind?). Finally, we're going to need reams of baby-food press-release copy that explains everything from history to kernel superiority (Mark@vmunix?) and all the rest. > > Second, I need you all to think of who you (-core) can talk to in the > > original Berkeley movement and what they can do for us. MKMcK and Tim > > O'Reilly come to mind, and Bob Metcalfe is still very visible but a bit > > peeved that nobody did anything about the bandwidth problem he stuck his > > neck out about. The Yahoo guys and Netscape/Mozilla guys would be great > > Erm, what bandwidth thing? Could you maybe send me a private email > message clarifying this reference? It sounds like something we should > do something about. No need to be private. I'm talking about his correct-but-slightly premature assertion that the internet is going to collapse as all the home users come on-line unless there's a rapid boost in backbone infrastructure. As far as doing something about it, we set up our own local-machine-to-local-machine net in parallel, but that's for next year. > In any case, I'll try to talk to those among the > original Berkeley movement who don't already have a rather > significantly vested interest in promoting BSDI's product. :) > > > sponsors, they have visibility and money. And finally, Intel is still an > > engineer-driven company. I think we can gather our courage, refine a > > pitch, and get their help. It's to their enormous benefit, anyway. > > We can certainly get enough of their help to at least publically claim > them as supporters, which would be rather legitimising. I'll try and > at least make some arrangements with their test labs down here since > they've already offered the use of the facilities, I just need to > grapple with various NDAs in using their experimental pre-release > hardware bits. Actually, I think they'd be happy to JUMP RIGHT IN from a PR standpoint, and I mean to the point that we'd have to be careful not to be overwhelmed. Once we make it clear that this is not going to (at least not by us) be an evil-Microsoft-bashing event, and once they see that we are true-blue Intel addicts, they'll JRI in a hurry, as their bunny suits have lost some luster recently. On e-p-r hardware bits, actually, we need to stay away from those. ALL stuff MUST be generally available to the public within 6 months of date of test. What do you know that I don't, besides I2O and BX and Merced? One thing I would really like to do out of this is to leverage the opening-up of the I2O API so we can distribute our source code with I2O drivers. > > InfoWorld. Once this becomes an official FreeBSD.org project, they'll > > listen closely and maybe twitch a few strings in our favor. Ditto Dr. > > Dobbs and Web Techniques. > > Anyone with contacts inside these publications are also encouraged to > PIPE UP NOW. ;-) Inside contacts really make all the difference, if > you have them. > > > We need to fix a site relatively quickly, because a lot of future > > promotion is going to hinge on it. I'd really like to get a Berkeley > > campus location if that's at all possible, since few public auditoriums > > will have a T1 handy. 8-))) > > None of the Berkeley ones I know of do either, actually. :( They're > pretty spartan. All right, I still say we do it in Berkeley somewhere because of the historical tie-in. Have any of you ever seen the laser datalinks made by American Laser and others? I did a video link test across San Pedro harbor once and it was really trivial to set up. Line of site, a mile of pure raw speed. We will have to get a permit to do it, but a temporary-link permit is doable. > > I think the failure was due to being way ahead of the understanding of > > the general public, not any lack of smarts on your part. You _couldn't_ > > get the momentum of history moving in the right direction. It was too > > premature, people just wrote you off as unrealistic geeks. Then, too, > > FreeBSD's come a long way in the last 3 years. > > I know it has technically, I'm just not sure if the Journalists are > ready for it yet. We shall see, eh? :-) I think they are, because this will force them to deal with us from the 'news' standpoint. Journalists need content, as do TV media people. We're making this easy for them, because it can be described as a simple thing. ("It's a race.") It also creates a vacuum for them to then fill with explanations, commentary, interviews, etc., for as long as the interest is maintained. That's why I'm really hoping the 'small demo version' project will have disks ready to distribute. (HINT!!!) The event creates the first wave of interest, the disks maintain interest and build friends, and then my original 'fair Challenge' is the topper. Jordan, if we pull this off you better have _lots_ of WC CD's pressed. We _will_ have national media coverage. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 10:02:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16675 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:02:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16584; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08816; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:59:21 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Message-ID: <19980425185920.A8244@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:59:20 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: John Birrell , "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing Mail-Followup-To: John Birrell , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org References: <35412238.41C67EA6@asme.org> <199804242344.JAA08131@cimlogic.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199804242344.JAA08131@cimlogic.com.au>; from John Birrell on Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 09:44:12AM +1000 X-Mutt-References: <199804242344.JAA08131@cimlogic.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, [cc'd to -advocacy, please trim responses as appropriate] On Sat, Apr 25, 1998 at 09:44:12AM +1000, John Birrell wrote: > Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > I suspect that everything we do to improve Mozilla will be credited to > > the "Linux development model" > > The development model that they are about to use is very similar to the > FreeBSD development model. CVS, online sources, areas of responsibility > with commit access... I don't know about anyone else here, but I've been following (speed reading :) some of the mozilla.org mailing lists, and my impression of their project is that it is going to take them at least a few months to settle into a development model. There is still a lot of worship of people @netscape.com, (much like FreeBSD does with -core ;), and there are big problems between the Linux and Windows groups. The Linux guys want a 'killer app' and the Windows guys want IE4. I would really like to see them 'encouraged' into a FreeBSD model. I think that the importance of mozilla.org lies in publicity, not in it becoming a 'killer app'. The project has a very high media status, and will attract more companies to look into open source software. If they develop a fanatical Linux type structure then it will make people weary, and if they just try to emulate M$, then people would rather go straight to Bill. But if they see a level headed, mature organisation, with committed people and a bossiness like manner (which I believe FreeBSD has most of the time ;), then companies will be willing to forge ties (and Netscape might not can the project). I'm not sure what I could do to help. John, you say there are behind the scenes communications. Are these to do with helping them set up CVS, etc? My wish is that FreeBSD would leverage (now there's a nice marketing word :) their existing worldwide mirrors to make an 'instant' worldwide mozilla.org (ie cvsup.za.mozilla.org, etc), by making pointers in mozilla.org's DNS to freebsd.org's and getting the FreeBSD mirror sites to mirror Mozilla (via CVS and FTP tarballs of the source and binaries). We could do this quickly and it wouldn't consume much resources (not as much as say the distfiles or packages). We could also help them set up GNATS, www mirrors, cvsweb interfaces, and other infrastructure to help them. FreeBSD's mirror infrastructure is something that none of the Linux distributions can offer, although we must not stop them from using other mirror sites and especially from weaning themselves off our infrastructure. As for advocacy, I've found in my short life that the best way to make friends is to give without asking in return. If they want to thank us for the help then that is up to them, but if they don't then we don't help them so much. I think the current netscape people within mozilla.org are clever enough to know that. If we go with "you can have my toy, but only if you promise to be my friend" blackmail, then it will put them off. We could ask them after doing it, and it is working, if they wouldn't mind making a joint press release. We could also ask for a FreeBSD developer(s) to be given access to their CVS tree to be responsible for the FreeBSD version of Mozilla. And in the future when we politely ask Netscape why the FreeBSD version of Communicator is not officially supported we'd get a much friendlier response. Just my 2c, -Jeremy PS. I think that a FreeBSD-Mozilla CVS tree should still be maintained (on bento), so that FreeBSD developers who want to work on Mozilla can coordinate/test their work before submitting it back to mozilla.org. -- .sig.gz To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 10:13:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18223 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:13:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18216 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:13:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23158; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:10:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Jeremy Lea cc: John Birrell , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:59:20 +0200." <19980425185920.A8244@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:10:55 -0700 Message-ID: <23154.893524255@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Redirected to -advocacy only; -chat and -advocacy both is overkill] > I would really like to see them 'encouraged' into a FreeBSD model. I think > that the importance of mozilla.org lies in publicity, not in it becoming a This has already been going on for some time ("encouragement" and private discussion) but we'll just have to see what the mozilla staffers end up being most comfortable with. Believe me, we're trying! :) > My wish is that FreeBSD would leverage (now there's a nice marketing word :) > their existing worldwide mirrors to make an 'instant' worldwide mozilla.org > (ie cvsup.za.mozilla.org, etc), by making pointers in mozilla.org's DNS to > freebsd.org's and getting the FreeBSD mirror sites to mirror Mozilla (via > CVS and FTP tarballs of the source and binaries). We could do this quickly > and it wouldn't consume much resources (not as much as say the distfiles or > packages). We could also help them set up GNATS, www mirrors, cvsweb The problem with this, and it's already been offered, is that they're already in the process of setting all these things up themselves (some number of insanely configured Sparc/SMP boxes are being put together now to serve all of this stuff over at Mozilla.org) and there is actually great concern that we'll race off and set up a parallel infrastructure in our impatience and really confuse things - I already offered to donate machine resources and network connectivity to the cause of setting up a set of mozilla mirrors, as you mention, and got "no, no, wait, we're *almost ready!*" as my answer. They're happy to have our help, but they're also in the process of releasing their own CVS repository and they'd much rather than bento mirror it than keep a parallel copy. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 10:32:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19725 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:32:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19686 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:32:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09800; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:30:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199804251730.KAA09800@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Jeremy Lea , John Birrell , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:10:55 PDT." <23154.893524255@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:30:21 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > infrastructure in our impatience and really confuse things - I already > offered to donate machine resources and network connectivity to the > cause of setting up a set of mozilla mirrors, as you mention, and got > "no, no, wait, we're *almost ready!*" as my answer. They're happy to > have our help, but they're also in the process of releasing their own > CVS repository and they'd much rather than bento mirror it than keep a > parallel copy. Cool, I really like the sound of that. Tnks! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 10:37:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20807 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:37:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA20471 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:36:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id NAA02990; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:29:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 13:34:22 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Jeremy Lea cc: John Birrell , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing In-Reply-To: <19980425185920.A8244@shale.csir.co.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Jeremy Lea wrote: > I don't know about anyone else here, but I've been following (speed reading > :) some of the mozilla.org mailing lists, and my impression of their project > is that it is going to take them at least a few months to settle into a > development model. There is still a lot of worship of people @netscape.com, > (much like FreeBSD does with -core ;), and there are big problems between > the Linux and Windows groups. The Linux guys want a 'killer app' and the > Windows guys want IE4. > > I would really like to see them 'encouraged' into a FreeBSD model. I think > that the importance of mozilla.org lies in publicity, not in it becoming a > 'killer app'. The project has a very high media status, and will attract That is all good in theory and that was MY hope as well, but I dont think thats what there goal is. Jamie at netscape sent an email here a few days ago after my big hoo ha about why mozilla people didn't even KNOW we were interestd in helping them out or getting our FreeBSD mozilla list mirrored at mozilla.org. And according to jamie that would just splinter the effort of trying to unify mozilla to one unix platform. But as JB pointed out we've been there and done that it doesnt work it's a pipe dream. There is no standard unix. So as far as I see it their hope of one grand unified unix port of mozilla is not going to work. If mozilla feels that FreeBSD maintaining its own mozilla tree and mailing lists has no value to mozilla other than to splinter the mozilla effort into "factions" linux vs FreeBSD then thats their right. This is of course all my opinion only. So I think we just need to concentrate on keeping a mozilla/FreeBSD port alive. If they don't want our patches to make mozilla compile on FreeBSD thats cool. If they want to persue their rand unified unix port thats cool too. I think we know that road will be fruitless but thats their right. So the only HELP and press we can get out of this is to help them with CVS issues. Which are really behind the scenes efforts. We might get a thank you somewhere for it but I doubt much more. > more companies to look into open source software. If they develop a > fanatical Linux type structure then it will make people weary, and if they > just try to emulate M$, then people would rather go straight to Bill. But if > they see a level headed, mature organisation, with committed people and a > bossiness like manner (which I believe FreeBSD has most of the time ;), then > companies will be willing to forge ties (and Netscape might not can the > project). Well after todays suit by WANG Global over their "patents" against netscape you have to wonder WHY? well check out http://microsoft.wang.com and theirs your answer. M$ is the most worthless, unfair, greedy piece of !@#% company on the plane! They have more than likely pushed wang into filing this insane suit against netscape because they CANT STAND the fact they have competition and the fact they will loose share to netscape with all the added programming muscle and creativeness mozilla now has at their disposal. Its absolutely disgusting! > I'm not sure what I could do to help. John, you say there are behind the > scenes communications. Are these to do with helping them set up CVS, etc? There are or were a couple of emails to chris @netscape but after jamies last letter I dont think there is much of a role besides CVS help we can offer them. They are not interested in supporting individual efforts to make mozilla compile on every platform. They have said there is no reason for it, that as long as it's written in ANSI C it should compile on ALL unix platforms. So this is where the differences are right now. I think we can still help them out alot with CVS. That much I know both camps can agree on. > My wish is that FreeBSD would leverage (now there's a nice marketing word :) > their existing worldwide mirrors to make an 'instant' worldwide mozilla.org > (ie cvsup.za.mozilla.org, etc), by making pointers in mozilla..org's DNS to > freebsd.org's and getting the FreeBSD mirror sites to mirror Mozilla (via > CVS and FTP tarballs of the source and binaries). We could do this quickly > and it wouldn't consume much resources (not as much as say the distfiles or > packages). We could also help them set up GNATS, www mirrors, cvsweb > interfaces, and other infrastructure to help them. FreeBSD's mirror > infrastructure is something that none of the Linux distributions can offer, > although we must not stop them from using other mirror sites and especially > from weaning themselves off our infrastructure. > > As for advocacy, I've found in my short life that the best way to make > friends is to give without asking in return. If they want to thank us for > the help then that is up to them, but if they don't then we don't help them > so much. I think the current netscape people within mozilla.org are clever > enough to know that. If we go with "you can have my toy, but only if you > promise to be my friend" blackmail, then it will put them off. We could ask > them after doing it, and it is working, if they wouldn't mind making a joint > press release. We could also ask for a FreeBSD developer(s) to be given > access to their CVS tree to be responsible for the FreeBSD version of > Mozilla. And in the future when we politely ask Netscape why the FreeBSD > version of Communicator is not officially supported we'd get a much > friendlier response. Again all of this is my opinion but netscape I dont think is interested in supporting a "FreeBSD" version they support a "UNIX" version. I think thats what jamie from netscape said in his last email. I dont really see what we can do beyond CVS for them. They want to develop a SINLGE unix version, they dont want to get into FreeBSD vs Linux vs NetBSD issues. They were approached to mirror freebsd-mozilla on mozilla.org and I explained why we had our own CVS tree for a FreeBSD slanted version of FreeBSD/Mozilla. Neither of which they wanted a part of because they did NOT want to splinter the mozilla effort into factions. That was my take on it anyway. The facts may be skewed or incorrect so REFER to jamies email reply to my mail and jb's mail about FreeBSD/mozilla issues. If you need me to forward it to you I can. I'm not baggin on netscape im simply trying to make CLEAR that I think our goals are conflicting with each others. And here is a mozilla CVS tree availble at freebsd.org. See http://www.freebsd.org/mozilla.html Chris -- "I am closed minded. It keeps the rain out." ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 11:27:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26122 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:27:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA26063 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:27:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id MAA06274; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:27:18 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA06509; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:22:09 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:22:09 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Don Wilde cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: <3541E0A5.539CBA10@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > Finally, you think this server _isn't_ going to have close to $100K of > hardware in it??? What does it mean to generate an ok result with $100k of hardware when $100k of hardware has generated far better results? I would think it would be more meaningful to generate an ok result with a lot less hardware. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 12:09:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00427 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:09:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29917 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:08:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-32.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.32]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA62952; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 19:06:27 GMT Message-ID: <35422D4D.166C9BC2@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:37:01 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Lea CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing References: <35412238.41C67EA6@asme.org> <199804242344.JAA08131@cimlogic.com.au> <19980425185920.A8244@shale.csir.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremy Lea wrote: > I would really like to see them 'encouraged' into a FreeBSD model. I think > that the importance of mozilla.org lies in publicity, not in it becoming a YES! > 'killer app'. The project has a very high media status, and will attract > more companies to look into open source software. If they develop a > fanatical Linux type structure then it will make people weary, and if they > just try to emulate M$, then people would rather go straight to Bill. But if > they see a level headed, mature organisation, with committed people and a > bossiness like manner (which I believe FreeBSD has most of the time ;), then bossy-ness? I know there've been heavyhanded squelches, but I hope you mean 'business'... :) > My wish is that FreeBSD would leverage (now there's a nice marketing word :) > their existing worldwide mirrors to make an 'instant' worldwide mozilla.org > (ie cvsup.za.mozilla.org, etc), by making pointers in mozilla.org's DNS to > freebsd.org's and getting the FreeBSD mirror sites to mirror Mozilla (via > CVS and FTP tarballs of the source and binaries). We could do this quickly > and it wouldn't consume much resources (not as much as say the distfiles or > packages). We could also help them set up GNATS, www mirrors, cvsweb > interfaces, and other infrastructure to help them. FreeBSD's mirror > infrastructure is something that none of the Linux distributions can offer, > although we must not stop them from using other mirror sites and especially > from weaning themselves off our infrastructure. EXCELLENT! > As for advocacy, I've found in my short life that the best way to make > friends is to give without asking in return. If they want to thank us for > the help then that is up to them, but if they don't then we don't help them > so much. I think the current netscape people within mozilla.org are clever > enough to know that. If we go with "you can have my toy, but only if you > promise to be my friend" blackmail, then it will put them off. We could ask > them after doing it, and it is working, if they wouldn't mind making a joint > press release. We could also ask for a FreeBSD developer(s) to be given > access to their CVS tree to be responsible for the FreeBSD version of > Mozilla. And in the future when we politely ask Netscape why the FreeBSD > version of Communicator is not officially supported we'd get a much > friendlier response. This seems like the best way to _leverage_ every aspect of FreeBSD for instant advantage, and your comments about giving and doing first without expectation are very cogent to all -advocacy discussions here, mine included. Thank you for your level-headed ideas! --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 12:17:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02340 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:17:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02324 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:17:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-32.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.32]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA45966; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 19:16:57 GMT Message-ID: <3542368D.C34933A8@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:16:29 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Slemko CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If I read the results, we'll be able to match Novell's faster web software with our faster OS and okay websoftware by using much faster disks and equal net performance. As you know, my original Challenge used $3000 hardware, and eventually I'd like to force them to compete on that which is really _our_ turf. However, I think we can match or beat their numbers with trick hardware. Even if Apache is slower, if our hardware is faster and we solve the bandwidth limit problem so we can USE the hardware performance we are designing, we won't just get 'ok' numbers. Lastly, if you think 2.0 is going to be better and is going to be released within 6 months of June 28th, why not help us by tweaking _it_ to be better and faster. Just cut an interim release which is our tweaked version, and that satisfies the 'generally available' clause. I have gotten great benefit from your devil's advocate comments, and I hope you will continue to contribute to this effort. That said, I hope you can switch gears and start figuring out what you _can_ do to help us 'win' in this attempt. We're going to do it, will you help? --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 12:26:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04720 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:26:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04687 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03803; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:24:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: Jeremy Lea , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 25 Apr 1998 11:37:01 PDT." <35422D4D.166C9BC2@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:24:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3798.893532270@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I think everyone in this discussion needs to perhaps wait just another week for the Mozilla folks to get things ready and make their various announcements. If they've nothing ready by then, I'll be the first to start prodding them more insistently, believe me. I've also already proposed a "FreeBSD delegation" and been informed why that would be incompatible with their existing module-based development model, and I can respect that, so we need to at least give them a chance to advance their own development proposal before we start making all these "lone wolf" noises. A hard-charging attitude is all well and good here in -advocacy, but let's be careful not to foster any gratuitous fragmentation as a side effect of it. Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 15:28:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02760 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:28:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA02673; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:27:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA22549; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:25:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199804252225.PAA22549@implode.root.com> To: "John S. Dyson" cc: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly), chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:47:57 CDT." <199804251747.MAA11660@dyson.iquest.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 15:25:15 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> >Evidence of this is in the WC CDROM sales figures for Slackware >> >Linux where growth has slowed from exponential to linear. >> >> Interest in Slackware has waned. Redhat and Debian have taken its >> place. Concluding that FreeBSD is growing faster than Linux, based on >> Slackware sales at Walnut Creek, seems to be wishful thinking. >> >I don't think that DG is saying that Linux is shrinking, but the rate >of increase in growth is decreasing. (Remember derivatives, in high >school? :-)). I'm not saying that the size of Linux is decreasing, only that their growth rate is decreasing. I'm just passing on what I've heard/read Linus say about a year ago: that Linux growth was starting to flatten out a bit to what was starting to look more like linear than exponential. I suspect, but have no sales figures to back it up, that Redhat growth remains nearly year-to-year exponential, and that it is the deceleration of growth in other Linux variants that has made growth of Linux overall less than exponential. Actually, you can ignore what everyone has to say about growth of Linux, because noone really knows the answer to that. The same can be said about FreeBSD growth, for that matter. One more thing, if you really want to look at something interesting that we can perhaps build on, then look at the success of FreeBSD in Japan. There are 20 titles of FreeBSD books on the bookstore shelves and FreeBSD is considered to be at least as popular as Linux there, with an installed base estimated at more than 200,000 (this number comes from Japanese trade magazines). -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 17:48:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17777 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:48:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA17768 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:48:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id SAA15091; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:47:45 -0600 (MDT) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA08275; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:44:58 -0600 (MDT) Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:44:58 -0600 (MDT) From: Marc Slemko To: Don Wilde cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb In-Reply-To: <3542368D.C34933A8@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > If I read the results, we'll be able to match Novell's faster web > software with our faster OS and okay websoftware by using much faster > disks and equal net performance. As you know, my original Challenge used > $3000 hardware, and eventually I'd like to force them to compete on that > which is really _our_ turf. However, I think we can match or beat their > numbers with trick hardware. Even if Apache is slower, if our hardware > is faster and we solve the bandwidth limit problem so we can USE the > hardware performance we are designing, we won't just get 'ok' numbers. Again, you are underestimating the effort put into some of these results and the difficulty of getting results. > > Lastly, if you think 2.0 is going to be better and is going to be > released within 6 months of June 28th, why not help us by tweaking _it_ > to be better and faster. Just cut an interim release which is our > tweaked version, and that satisfies the 'generally available' clause. It is hard to cut an interm release of something that isn't written. > > I have gotten great benefit from your devil's advocate comments, and I > hope you will continue to contribute to this effort. That said, I hope > you can switch gears and start figuring out what you _can_ do to help us > 'win' in this attempt. We're going to do it, will you help? As I have said time and time again, if you are trying to beat existing numbers (as your above comment indicates you are still trying to do; your target isn't trivial since AFAIK Novell's results are currently the best single processor results listed) you must use Zeus to have any hope, and even then you may or may not succeed. I don't know how many ways I can say that you can't approach this trying to go in and kick ass or you will not end up with anything productive. I think that getting results for various under-represented solutions (in this case, Apache and FreeBSD) is a positive experience even if they are middle of the range. You do have to remember that most companies don't submit SPECweb numbers unless they are right up there, so even something in the bottom half of the published results can be a good thing. The attitude that I am still seeing, however, about what can be accomplished is a bit naive. Even better would be some way to establish a lab or (preferrably) a good relationship with a vendor with existing labs in different areas that can be freely used by free software vendors for benchmarking and performance tuning. There are parts of software that simply can't be tuned right for high load without being able to actually benchmark it under load, and those resources can be hard to find. I really don't have the spare time to get overly involved, but I am trying to caution you against going into this with unrealistic expectations and having a big flop. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 18:25:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20459 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20443 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:25:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-230.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.230]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA10606; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 01:25:24 GMT Message-ID: <35428736.EB043FB9@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:00:38 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Slemko CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *** Real Action Item: SPECweb References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Marc Slemko wrote: > I really don't have the spare time to get overly involved, but I am > trying to caution you against going into this with unrealistic > expectations and having a big flop. Okay, caution noted and thanks for your commentary. We'll try to have some pre-public test runs so we can adjust our 'spin' on the effort when we actually go in front of the media. Perhaps I am overly optimistic, but I have a lot of faith in hardware. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Apr 25 18:26:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20661 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:26:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20535 for ; Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-230.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.230]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id BAA82680; Sun, 26 Apr 1998 01:25:44 GMT Message-ID: <35428991.6D9F281D@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:10:41 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing References: <199804252225.PAA22549@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG all we have to do is to look at the number of new ja- ports being submitted. They're active, all right. Can you get one of the Japanese Users' Groups to give us some numbers to add to the registration numbers? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message