From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 00:34:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA23276 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 00:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23269 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 00:34:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00413; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:34:37 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805030734.CAA00413@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley License In-Reply-To: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "May 2, 98 09:18:49 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 02:34:37 -0500 (EST) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass said: > I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating > the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however, > are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general. > > I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the > awareness > level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative > point of view. That's where the benefit comes in. > My suggestion (I don't have time to flamewar right now) is to extoll the virtues of a license that is both commercial and free friendly. One cannot win a discussion regarding the disadvantages of the GPL license, simply due to the fact that it *does* have problems, and no matter what reality is -- the real issues will be ignored. Whatever ones social and economic views are -- GPL is at a great commercial disadvantage (CDROM and other companies whose business is to *copy* the software only, notwithstanding.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 02:10:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA01996 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:10:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA01991 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:10:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA18455; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:10:02 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980503190958.15710@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 19:09:58 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Kenneth P. Stox" , Chris Swinford , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Slogan References: <25585.894003391@time.cdrom.com> <19980501155416.A27630@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980501155416.A27630@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Fri, May 01, 1998 at 03:54:16PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 03:54:16PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thu, 30 April 1998 at 23:16:31 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> Besides, I think the Philip Morris company might object to this slogan. > >> ( For the non-smokers out there, Veni - Vidi - Vici, is part of their > >> corporate logo. ) > > > > How about "Veni - Vidi - Coiti" then? > > You always get things round the wrong way. > > Vidi - Coiti - Veni OK, I give up. What does Coiti mean? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 02:16:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA02333 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:16:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA02326 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:16:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA02492; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:46:16 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980503184616.U356@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:46:16 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Kenneth P. Stox" , Chris Swinford , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Slogan References: <25585.894003391@time.cdrom.com> <19980501155416.A27630@freebie.lemis.com> <19980503190958.15710@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980503190958.15710@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 07:09:58PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 3 May 1998 at 19:09:58 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 03:54:16PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Thu, 30 April 1998 at 23:16:31 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>>> Besides, I think the Philip Morris company might object to this slogan. >>>> ( For the non-smokers out there, Veni - Vidi - Vici, is part of their >>>> corporate logo. ) >>> >>> How about "Veni - Vidi - Coiti" then? >> >> You always get things round the wrong way. >> >> Vidi - Coiti - Veni > > OK, I give up. What does Coiti mean? Yes, I was wondering about this, too. You would probably recognize it more readily as "coii", but strictly Jordan is right, so I didn't belabour the point. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 02:16:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA02430 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gratis.grondar.za (gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA02391 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:16:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from greenpeace.grondar.za (root@greenpeace.grondar.za [196.7.18.132]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05273; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:16:40 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by greenpeace.grondar.za (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18925; Sun, 3 May 1998 11:16:39 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <199805030916.LAA18925@greenpeace.grondar.za> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Sue Blake cc: Greg Lehey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Kenneth P. Stox" , Chris Swinford , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Slogan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 11:16:37 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sue Blake wrote: > > Vidi - Coiti - Veni > > OK, I give up. What does Coiti mean? "I bonked" :-) M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 02:25:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA02902 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:25:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA02897 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:25:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA02520; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:55:19 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980503185519.V356@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:55:19 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Kenneth P. Stox" , Chris Swinford , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Slogan References: <25585.894003391@time.cdrom.com> <19980501155416.A27630@freebie.lemis.com> <19980503190958.15710@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980503190958.15710@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 07:09:58PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 3 May 1998 at 19:09:58 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > On Fri, May 01, 1998 at 03:54:16PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Thu, 30 April 1998 at 23:16:31 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>>> Besides, I think the Philip Morris company might object to this slogan. >>>> ( For the non-smokers out there, Veni - Vidi - Vici, is part of their >>>> corporate logo. ) >>> >>> How about "Veni - Vidi - Coiti" then? >> >> You always get things round the wrong way. >> >> Vidi - Coiti - Veni > > OK, I give up. What does Coiti mean? I take that last message back. It's either "coii" or "coivi". "coiti" is derived from the supine ("coitum"), but I can't see what meaning it would have in the masculine. In the passive, of course, ("coitus sum"), it's an indication that you have just installed Microsoft software. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 02:56:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA07923 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:56:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from saten.dyn.ml.org (219.ppp8.gulftel.com [208.222.59.219]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA07917 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 02:56:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (advocacy@localhost) by saten.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id EAA01978 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 04:54:47 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 04:54:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Phillip Salzman To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: re: slogan Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Here is a simple slogan to destory the linux one: "FreeBSD - An OS for an Advanced Generation" ---- Phillip Salzman eclipse@gulf.net "With One" http://saten.dyn.ml.org http://gulf.net/~eclipse/ http://www.gulftel.com/~eclipse/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 03:31:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12575 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 03:31:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA12530 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 03:30:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id DAA11442; Sun, 3 May 1998 03:30:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 03:30:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: "Anthony C. Chavez" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD sticker (please read) (was Re: FreeBSD * slogans*) In-Reply-To: <87af91418y.fsf@misfit.users.xmission.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'd go to www.iprint.com Create a FreeBSD mug, FreeBSD sticker and FreeBSD t-shirt online yourself. :) -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux -- DOS of the Unix world. On 2 May 1998, Anthony C. Chavez wrote: >Nicole writes: > >> MS - where do you want to go today? >> FreeBSD - Been there done that.. Next.. > >I like this one the best, but I'd have to say that a "plain" bumper sticker >with the standard "Powered by FreeBSD" (with the lovely picture of Chuck that >we are all familiar with) would look PERFECT on my 4x4 (right next to the >"And God said... ... and then there was LIGHT!" sticker). > >In other words, I'd like the (official?) "Powered by FreeBSD" sticker the best. >:-) > >--- Important part follows --- > >I recently spoke with a company (Pegasus Publishing, http://www.bab.com/) that >prints bumper stickers, and they said that they would be willing to make >FreeBSD stickers. I got permission from McKusick (or however you spell his >name) to print the exact sticker I mentioned above (Powered by FreeBSD) to make >10 for personal use (not for sale), but was unable to hunt down a suitable >graphic on the WWW (or anywhere else). I'm sure getting his permission to >print stickers for sale won't be a problem. > >They need a very high resolution graphic that is fairly large. I have the >exact dimensions in another mailbox. If anyone would like me to post them, let >me know. > >PLUG: Go to Pegasus' web page! They have lots of really cool stuff for sale. >Cthulhu/Lovecraft, role-playing/fantasy, and all sorts of other memorabilia for >the hard-core geek. Not just stickers but t-shirts and other junk. Enjoy. > >-- >Anthony C. Chavez > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 05:51:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA27457 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 05:51:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA27447 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 05:51:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA28542; Sun, 3 May 1998 05:50:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey cc: Sue Blake , "Kenneth P. Stox" , Chris Swinford , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Slogan In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 18:55:19 +0930." <19980503185519.V356@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 05:50:25 -0700 Message-ID: <28538.894199825@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I take that last message back. It's either "coii" or "coivi". The irony, of course, is that more people probably got the joke with incorrect latin as would have gotten it without. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 12:49:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13836 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 12:49:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13817 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 12:48:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-160.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.160]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA21160; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:48:37 GMT Message-ID: <354C8649.A1D220E2@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 07:59:21 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A GUI greyscale interface by default References: <26158.894162012@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yes, I'm doing so (reading README's). First off, none of the questions I raise are covered there. It explains _technically_ what happens, but not _actually_, and how to recover when it fails. It also doesn't tell you anything about filenames.txt, it doesn't explain the CD layout, or explain to a non-unix person what you are talking about. Oh, it's not there? Why not? What DO I do? Second off, since the CD autoboots, very few will actually get to the README's before being launched into the install. Doesn't change the essential point, though. I'm not saying I shouldn't have looked (Doh!) but it is not fair to say "it's in there". The world of Internet users (and CD users) is a lot wider than it used to be, and we need to move to the next level. I've been in the computer business for 15+ years, Jordan. I have a 140+ IQ. It bit me despite that. Let's agree that we need to move it up a few notches, and get to it. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 12:49:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13848 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 12:49:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13827 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 12:48:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-160.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.160]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA60642; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:48:43 GMT Message-ID: <354CC812.91B20472@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 12:40:02 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Slogan References: <25585.894003391@time.cdrom.com> <19980501155416.A27630@freebie.lemis.com> <19980503190958.15710@welearn.com.au> <19980503185519.V356@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > I take that last message back. It's either "coii" or "coivi". > "coiti" is derived from the supine ("coitum"), but I can't see what > meaning it would have in the masculine. In the passive, of course, > ("coitus sum"), it's an indication that you have just installed > Microsoft software. Which goes with what I thought was the meaning, like the medical sex term 'coitus', as in "I've been f***ed!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 13:51:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24769 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.webweaver.net (xwin.webweaver.net [208.138.29.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24717 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:51:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.webweaver.net) Received: (from nicole@localhost) by xwin.webweaver.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA00816; Sun, 3 May 1998 13:52:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 13:52:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: Joey Garcia Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Frank Pawlak , Don Wilde Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id NAA24742 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 01-May-98 Joey Garcia wisely wrote: > On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > >> We have a shot at the server market, but unless we add to our appeal to >> the desktop set by improving ppp and printer setup and building our own >> office suite, we will remain a niche OS. That's why I take Jordan's >> comments to heart about carefully approaching the Popular Science crowd >> with inteesting articles, and why I want to make a Dummy's FreeBSD Demo. >> --> Don >> > The server market is a great idea, although it would be a good idea to > remind people that FreeBSD is a great workstation as well. Those that see > FreeBSD as a "server only" OS might be turned off if all they want is a > powerful workstation. I believe we should hit both crowds (server people > and workstation people) with equal emphasis, or perhaps just a bit more > emphasis on the server side. Do you guys agree? > > Joey Bear Garcia > > I don't think that the workstation part is a big deal. I have come to belive th at it is all how good it is, how much will run on it and the NAME. I just got the word that the company I work for wants to start incorporating mo re SUN machines and maybe even Linux systems becouse: 1) They want business users to see a Name they know. 2) Most Big Name commerce applications are not available for FreeBSD 3) They don't feel customers would feel comfortable having their commerce sites on an OS they don't know and a machine without a brand name (since I build our o wn) Lets face it the big NAMES these days are NT, SUN, and now Linux :< One of the biggest things that could be done is to do more marketing and perhap s expand the web pages showing who uses FreeBSD. These expanded pages featuring companies could be used as a marketing tool in the press and by users like mysel f in convincing the suits who feel Flash is more important than quality and usea bility. Perhaps: Company(w/URL) - what company does - #of machines - what machines do - contact name Just a wild suggestion. Nicole nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ ------------------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 14:20:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA28972 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:20:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.webweaver.net (xwin.webweaver.net [208.138.29.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA28964 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:20:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.webweaver.net) Received: (from nicole@localhost) by xwin.webweaver.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA00924; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:20:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87af91418y.fsf@misfit.users.xmission.com> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 14:20:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: (Anthony C. Chavez) Subject: RE: FreeBSD sticker (please read) (was Re: FreeBSD * slogans*) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA28965 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 02-May-98 Anthony C. Chavez wisely wrote: > Nicole writes: > >> MS - where do you want to go today? >> FreeBSD - Been there done that.. Next.. > > I like this one the best, but I'd have to say that a "plain" bumper sticker > with the standard "Powered by FreeBSD" (with the lovely picture of Chuck that > we are all familiar with) would look PERFECT on my 4x4 (right next to the > "And God said... ... and then there was LIGHT!" > sticker). > > In other words, I'd like the (official?) "Powered by FreeBSD" sticker the > best. >:-) > Yes, I would very much like a Powered sticker! Of course I have another cute v ariation... If it's not Powered by FreeBSD, The batteries aren't included! Nicole > --- Important part follows --- > > I recently spoke with a company (Pegasus Publishing, http://www.bab.com/) > that > prints bumper stickers, and they said that they would be willing to make > FreeBSD stickers. I got permission from McKusick (or however you spell his > name) to print the exact sticker I mentioned above (Powered by FreeBSD) to > make > 10 for personal use (not for sale), but was unable to hunt down a suitable > graphic on the WWW (or anywhere else). I'm sure getting his permission to > print stickers for sale won't be a problem. > > They need a very high resolution graphic that is fairly large. I have the > exact dimensions in another mailbox. If anyone would like me to post them, > let > me know. > > PLUG: Go to Pegasus' web page! They have lots of really cool stuff for sale. > Cthulhu/Lovecraft, role-playing/fantasy, and all sorts of other memorabilia > for > the hard-core geek. Not just stickers but t-shirts and other junk. Enjoy. > > -- > Anthony C. Chavez > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ ------------------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 14:40:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02697 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:40:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.webweaver.net (xwin.webweaver.net [208.138.29.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02682; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:40:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.webweaver.net) Received: (from nicole@localhost) by xwin.webweaver.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA00995; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:40:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 14:40:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA02684 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-May-98 Brett Glass wisely wrote: > I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating > the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however, > are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general. > > I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the > awareness > level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative > point of view. That's where the benefit comes in. > > --Brett I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I don't know h ow true it is.. Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take Freebs d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s tate that it was FreeBSD. Any comments? Nicole > > P.S. -- I'm cross-posting this one reply to both lists, but further > discussion > probably shouldn't be. > > At 11:51 AM 5/3/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>On Sat, 2 May 1998 at 18:25:47 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >>> As usual, a group of GPL zealots have gotten loose in an InfoWorld forum, >>> claiming that RMS is nothing less than a saint and that the GPL is The One >>> True Way. They're also trashing FreeBSD and the Berkeley-style license >>> quite a bit. Some folks from this list might care to join in.... In fact, I >>> think they should, as previous discussions on the InfoWorld forums have >>> raised FreeBSD's profile. The URL for the discussion is >>> >>> http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767 >>> >>> You can read the messages without registering, but need to fill out a short >>> registration form to post. (From what I can tell, you don't have to give >>> much -- or accurate -- information on the form.) >> >>Copying (and following-up to) advocacy. This seems a better forum. >> >>Well, speech is free, but I don't think you'll get much satisfaction >>fighting a bunch of people who see things differently. Having said >>that, of course, I'd have a hard time suggesting that you stop :-) >> >>I don't think that it's a good idea to get FreeBSD's name too involved >>in this kind of discussion, though. It'll just give the zealots more >>ammunition. (I don't know if you *do* mention FreeBSD--I haven't had >>time to read all the messages. >> >>Greg >>-- >>See complete headers for address and phone numbers >>finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key >> > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ ------------------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 14:41:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02890 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:41:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02850 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:40:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id OAA13500; Sun, 3 May 1998 14:40:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 14:40:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Kris Kirby cc: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD versus LINUX In-Reply-To: <354BCEC4.7488008C@airnet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just like my .sig said all this time. :) Yet, we are better to have Linux then Windows. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux -- DOS of the Unix world. On Sat, 2 May 1998, Kris Kirby wrote: >John Kelly wrote: >> >> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:30:41 -0500 (CDT), Frank Pawlak >> wrote: >> >> >In answering the question as I did, I was trying to provide some >> >information to persons that were switching from Linux to FreeBSD and >> >asking for information on the differences between them, and quite >> >frankly were given bullshit for an answer. >> >> I don't think so. Take of poll of all ISP's running either of the >> two, and I think you'll find that the vast majority prefer FreeBSD >> instead of Linux. My statement stands. "Amateurs like Linux, but >> professionals prefer FreeBSD." > >I just returned from a 3rd-12th grade technology conference. I found >Windows 95 in abudance. The machines that weren't running 95 were >dual-booting (with LILO) to Linux. When commenting about FreeBSD, one >person told me quite bluntly: "I'm not down with that FreeBSD shit." For >those of you unaccustomed to the many ideosyncracies of the English >language, he is saying that he doesn't like FreeBSD, and expresses no >future interest in it. But his main point was being able to configure >everything from X. What does he think this is Windows 95 or UN*X?! I >*really* felt bad for not bringing my machine (with the numerous pics of >Chuck. :)) What I saw when Linux was booting I did not like. It reminded >me *too* much of DOS. I now firmly believe that Linux is the Windows of >the UN*X world. flames >> /dev/null > >-- > >Kris Kirby >------------------------------------------- >TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 15:23:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10506 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:23:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10462; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:23:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA16256; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:23:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id RAA26258; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:22:39 -0500 Message-ID: <19980503172238.09469@right.PCS> Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 17:22:38 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Nicole Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Nicole on May 05, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On May 05, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700, Nicole wrote: > > I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I > don't know how true it is.. > > Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to > take Freebsd and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page > extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give anything > back to the FreeBSD group or even state that it was FreeBSD. > > Any comments? That's not a bug, it's a feature. :-) If M$ wants to do exactly that, more power to them. In fact, I feel that that is one of best things about the BSD license; anyone can take it, add their features, and resell it. Some companies even do exactly what you are exactly what you are describing. So what's wrong with that? Simple economics state that people have to make money in order to make a living. Their competitors can also do the same thing. The developers of FreeBSD get satisfaction in knowing that their work is valuable to others, and has been used to improve the overall state of the art in the industry. Actually, it would be nice if M$ would do that, perhaps it would greatly reduce the bugcount in their software and make it more useable. :-) -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 15:24:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10799 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10662 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:24:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id SAA12960; Sun, 3 May 1998 18:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:23:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Nicole cc: Brett Glass , FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 3 May 1998, Nicole wrote: > I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I don't know h > ow true it is.. > > Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take Freebs > d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page extensions, active X etc) > and sell it without having to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s > tate that it was FreeBSD. that is the whole point. As someone stated before who commednted on GPL vs BSD I think it was john?, thats the point. When he writes code for FreeBSD he is doing so with the knowledge it is TOTALLY FREE. NO STRINGS ATTACHED. Once he writes something for freebsd its in the interest that SOMEONE finds his code good enough to use. They don't do this for profit, greed, or to put strings on the code they write. Which is why the BSD license is free 100% and GPL is not free, and its anti-commercial. GPL is like that oasis in the desert you can see the water and it's almost in reach but right as you reach it it appears 20 yards farther out. Thats how GPL works, they hand you the code, you think your free to use it but then, oooohh gotta give what you write with it back, sorry wish it could be free but we cannot allow you to take our hard work and use it freely without giving something back. So GPL is NOT free. Free 100% is to allow the users of the code to do whatever it is they wish with it with NO/ZIP/ZERO/NONE/NADA strings attached. GPL is only free as long as you dont use it, if you use it your FORCED into giving what youw rite with it back. That is not free. That is the opposite of free. GPL is a license. but it is NOT FREE. It has many uses but it is not free. It is dilusional to think so. Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 15:32:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12232 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:32:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12085; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:31:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25472; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:31:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805032231.QAA25472@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 16:31:37 -0600 To: Nicole From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list In-Reply-To: References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I don't know h >ow true it is.. > > Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take Freebs >d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page extensions, active X etc) > and sell it without having to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s >tate that it was FreeBSD. > > >Any comments? > > Nicole This argument has been refuted many times. As has been pointed out in other forums, Microsoft has the money to reimplement anything it wants! For instance, while Microsoft could have used the BSD TCP/IP stack (as IBM did for OS/2 and NeXT did for NeXTStep), it didn't; it rolled its own. The restrictions on commercial re-use of source found in the GPL don't hurt Microsoft one bit. Failure to allow commercial re-use of code never bothers the "big guys," like Microsoft, which can drop a few million without breaking a sweat and hire programmers to "rewrite the wheel." (Heck, they can buy a whole company that has what they want.) And actually LIKE it if their stuff turns out to be just a bit incompatible; it locks users in. But the little guy -- the upstart competitor -- will lose valuable time reimplementing what's already been done. I think we'd all prefer to free innovators to concentrate on what's innovative and new, rather than having to start from scratch when a problem has already been solved. The result is likely to be of higher quality -- and more compatible, too. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 15:43:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13776 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:43:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13660; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:42:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199805032242.PAA13660@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: from Open Systems Networking at "May 3, 98 06:23:47 pm" To: opsys@mail.webspan.net (Open Systems Networking) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 15:42:23 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Open Systems Networking wrote: > he is doing so with the knowledge it is TOTALLY FREE. NO STRINGS ATTACHED. > Once he writes something for freebsd its in the interest that SOMEONE > finds his code good enough to use. They don't do this for profit, greed, > or to put strings on the code they write. Which is why the BSD license is > free 100% and GPL is not free, and its anti-commercial. GPL is like that > oasis in the desert you can see the water and it's almost in reach but > right as you reach it it appears 20 yards farther out. Thats how GPL > works, they hand you the code, you think your free to use it but then, > oooohh gotta give what you write with it back, sorry wish it could be free > but we cannot allow you to take our hard work and use it freely without > giving something back. So GPL is NOT free. Free 100% is to allow the users > of the code to do whatever it is they wish with it with > NO/ZIP/ZERO/NONE/NADA strings attached. GPL is only free as long as you > dont use it, if you use it your FORCED into giving what youw rite with it > back. That is not free. That is the opposite of free. > GPL is a license. but it is NOT FREE. It has many uses but it is not free. > It is dilusional to think so. this is incorrect. there are strings attached. in short, you must credit the University of California, Berkeley and its contributors in source and in binary. the binary must reproduce the copyright, its list of conidtions and its disclaimer. all ads must proclaim that the product has berkeley source in it. i believe that these strings may be why microsoft produces their own ****ty tcp/ip .....they prefer their own "material" to admitting they use a better product. and its "Unix" no less ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 15:48:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14421 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:48:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14411; Sun, 3 May 1998 15:48:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA05504; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:48:29 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA00728; Mon, 4 May 1998 00:48:29 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504004828.35746@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:48:28 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Nicole , Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Nicole on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700, Nicole wrote: > > On 03-May-98 Brett Glass wisely wrote: > > I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating > > the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however, > > are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general. > > > > I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the > > awareness > > level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative > > point of view. That's where the benefit comes in. > > > > --Brett > > > I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I > don't know how true it is.. > > Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to > take FreeBSD and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page > extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give > anything back to the FreeBSD group or even state that it was > FreeBSD. They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source sometime. One example: They have to credit the University of California at Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in /usr/src/COPYRIGHT. It is, however, correct that they wouldn't have to return the source. That's intended, and a lot of developers and contributors use it. I (for one) distribute FreeBSD-based products without providing source code, but I contribute back close to all generally usable to changes to the "official" FreeBSD. (I can't think of any examples of changes I haven't given back, but there might be some.) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 16:01:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16393 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16273; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA04729; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:30:34 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980504083034.A356@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:30:34 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonathan Lemon , Nicole Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> <19980503172238.09469@right.PCS> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980503172238.09469@right.PCS>; from Jonathan Lemon on Sun, May 03, 1998 at 05:22:38PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 3 May 1998 at 17:22:38 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > On May 05, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700, Nicole wrote: >> >> I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I >> don't know how true it is.. >> >> Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to >> take Freebsd and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page >> extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give anything >> back to the FreeBSD group or even state that it was FreeBSD. >> >> Any comments? > > That's not a bug, it's a feature. :-) In fact, the BSD license *does* require acknowledgement of the sources. Read it again. And yes, Microsoft has done this already, at least indirectly. Do you think they wrote all of their TCP/IP code? On the other hand, compare what they made of it to the original and you'll see why there's no particular reason for concern. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 16:05:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16976 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:05:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16674; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:03:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA04737; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:33:10 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:33:10 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Eivind Eklund , Nicole , Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> <19980504004828.35746@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980504004828.35746@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 12:48:28AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 0:48:28 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Sun, May 03, 1998 at 02:40:12PM -0700, Nicole wrote: >> >> On 03-May-98 Brett Glass wisely wrote: >>> I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating >>> the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however, >>> are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general. >>> >>> I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the >>> awareness >>> level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative >>> point of view. That's where the benefit comes in. >>> >>> --Brett >> >> >> I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I >> don't know how true it is.. >> >> Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to >> take FreeBSD and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page >> extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give >> anything back to the FreeBSD group or even state that it was >> FreeBSD. > > They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a > LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source > sometime. > > One example: They have to credit the University of California at > Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in > /usr/src/COPYRIGHT. Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 16:07:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17305 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17098; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:06:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA05870; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:06:03 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA00857; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:06:04 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980504010604.28183@follo.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:06:04 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Greg Lehey , Nicole , Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> <19980504004828.35746@follo.net> <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:10AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:10AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 0:48:28 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a > > LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source > > sometime. > > > > One example: They have to credit the University of California at > > Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in > > /usr/src/COPYRIGHT. > > Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? > You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. Then we're dealing with license violation. I don't think GPLing something will help you if you assume the license will be violated. Of course, the GPL is viral, and as a such might be more scary. A neat hack might be to create a BSD-style license which goes viral if violated :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 16:12:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18279 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:12:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17990; Sun, 3 May 1998 16:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id IAA04773; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:40:45 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980504084045.C356@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:40:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Eivind Eklund , Nicole , Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805030318.VAA15026@lariat.lariat.org> <19980504004828.35746@follo.net> <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> <19980504010604.28183@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980504010604.28183@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 01:06:04AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 1:06:04 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:10AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 0:48:28 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >>> They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a >>> LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source >>> sometime. >>> >>> One example: They have to credit the University of California at >>> Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in >>> /usr/src/COPYRIGHT. >> >> Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? >> You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. > > Then we're dealing with license violation. I don't think GPLing > something will help you if you assume the license will be violated. Sure. This wasn't supposed to be an argument for the GPL. > Of course, the GPL is viral, and as a such might be more scary. A > neat hack might be to create a BSD-style license which goes viral if > violated :-) You still need to get the source. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 17:28:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02713 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:28:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02682; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:28:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03888; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:28:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805040028.RAA03888@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nicole cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 14:40:12 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 17:28:09 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sure who cares and M$ can do the same thing with GPL code in fact they have done to companies . However , if you wish to be honest unlike some monopolies we *do* have an advantage over GPL license which is that the BSD license does provide the option to commercialize the code legally. One issue to keep in mind is that is very difficult and costly to privatize an OS installation like FreeBSD . Amancio > > On 03-May-98 Brett Glass wisely wrote: > > I'm not mentioning FreeBSD explicitly in my messages, but I *am* advocating > > the Berkeley-style license. The angry zealots who respond to me, however, > > are trashing FreeBSD and the *BSDs in general. > > > > I agree that one can rarely "win" these arguments, but one can raise the > > awareness > > level of the lurkers (of which there are many) that there's an alternative > > point of view. That's where the benefit comes in. > > > > --Brett > > > I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I don't know h > ow true it is.. > > Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take Freebs > d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page extensions, active X etc) > and sell it without having to give anything back to the FreeBSD group or even s > tate that it was FreeBSD. > > > Any comments? > > Nicole > > > > > > > P.S. -- I'm cross-posting this one reply to both lists, but further > > discussion > > probably shouldn't be. > > > > At 11:51 AM 5/3/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >>On Sat, 2 May 1998 at 18:25:47 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >>> As usual, a group of GPL zealots have gotten loose in an InfoWorld forum, > >>> claiming that RMS is nothing less than a saint and that the GPL is The One > >>> True Way. They're also trashing FreeBSD and the Berkeley-style license > >>> quite a bit. Some folks from this list might care to join in.... In fact, I > >>> think they should, as previous discussions on the InfoWorld forums have > >>> raised FreeBSD's profile. The URL for the discussion is > >>> > >>> http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767 > >>> > >>> You can read the messages without registering, but need to fill out a short > >>> registration form to post. (From what I can tell, you don't have to give > >>> much -- or accurate -- information on the form.) > >> > >>Copying (and following-up to) advocacy. This seems a better forum. > >> > >>Well, speech is free, but I don't think you'll get much satisfaction > >>fighting a bunch of people who see things differently. Having said > >>that, of course, I'd have a hard time suggesting that you stop :-) > >> > >>I don't think that it's a good idea to get FreeBSD's name too involved > >>in this kind of discussion, though. It'll just give the zealots more > >>ammunition. (I don't know if you *do* mention FreeBSD--I haven't had > >>time to read all the messages. > >> > >>Greg > >>-- > >>See complete headers for address and phone numbers > >>finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > >> > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ > webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ > ------------------------------------------------- > > -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- > -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- > > -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- > -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 17:31:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03298 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:31:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03198; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:30:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03909; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:30:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805040030.RAA03909@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nicole cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 14:40:12 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 17:30:34 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oh, I forgot to add : Lets take this thread to Infoworld -- is nice to have this group conversatations however we need to include a much wider audience, beside Brett already invite us so lets take this show on the road 8) Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 17:32:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03418 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:32:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tok.qiv.com (oMLsMQad7wAbCL0SVSRG4H+gNdYC0R5d@tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03341; Sun, 3 May 1998 17:31:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id TAA09541; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:29:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA01402; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:29:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 19:29:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Greg Lehey cc: Eivind Eklund , Nicole , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: [snip] >Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? >You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. There is nothing with which to compare Microsoft. They have established a low point yet matched. The BSD license is scattered all through AIX -- although a strong argument could be made that it's not really SYSV. I think it's a very BSD-like OS with some unusual integrated applications. Their SPs wouldn't function without free software -- kerberos, automounter, perl and tcl. I think they've been good about it. They even include source with the SP software. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 19:51:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26811 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:51:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26784 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:51:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01776; Sun, 3 May 1998 19:51:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A GUI greyscale interface by default In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 07:59:21 PDT." <354C8649.A1D220E2@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 19:51:22 -0700 Message-ID: <1772.894250282@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > _actually_, and how to recover when it fails. It also doesn't tell you > anything about filenames.txt, it doesn't explain the CD layout, or LAYOUT.TXT describes the CD layout fairly well for the "complex" 1st CD and the README.TXT files describe the simpler ones pretty adequately, I'd say. > Second off, since the CD autoboots, very few will actually get to the > README's before being launched into the install. They are duplicated in the Doc submenu of the install. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 20:04:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA29443 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:04:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA29387 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:04:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA05406; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:34:18 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980504123417.D4777@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:34:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Taylor , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: screeshots part deux References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Brett Taylor on Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 05:14:39PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 26 April 1998 at 17:14:39 -0600, Brett Taylor wrote: > Last week or so people were all up in arms about getting some screenshots > on www.freebsd.org so I said "send me your screenshots." Two people did - > I know some of you posted URL's to yours but I accidentally deleted a > bunch of mail so I missed them. Feel free to send them to me if you want. > > In any case, I've taken the screenshots I've received and the ones I've > made and made a little web page. Feel free to come browse it and check > them out. > > Being that we've had a number of people on -questions lately ask "what > does FBSD look like?" maybe it is a good idea to have some on the web > page. I know I've overwhelmed W95 users when I had Enlightenment on my > machine (I couldn't stand it - too foofy - but it is good at wowing > people). > > The URL is: > > http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/screenshots.html Nice stuff. Maybe I'll get something for you as well. One point, though: I think this is really a case where a full-sized image is important, and it should be as sharp as possible. This means .gif, not .jpeg. I'd suggest that you reduce the images to thumbnails and use them as a link to the full-size version for people who want it. If this is a bandwidth problem for you, I'm sure we could arrange to put it on one of the FreeBSD machines. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 20:20:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02181 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:20:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02166; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:20:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00468; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:20:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805040320.WAA00468@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <199805040028.RAA03888@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 3, 98 05:28:09 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 22:20:29 -0500 (EST) Cc: freelist@webweaver.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amancio Hasty said: > > One issue to keep in mind is that is very difficult and costly to > privatize an OS installation like FreeBSD . > I agree, and a paraphrased version of your statement might end up in my signature line. I suggest that someone might want to beat me to it :-). (I don't have time for flamewars right now, lots and lots of work beckons right now.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 20:23:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02703 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:23:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail3.mailsorter.net ([207.67.128.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02693 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:23:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kriston@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net ([204.148.100.147]) by mail3.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA1851 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 20:22:15 -0700 Message-ID: <354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:27:54 -0400 From: "Kriston J. Rehberg" Organization: http://kriston.net/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am very impressed with FreeBSD. So impressed, that after installing it from the FTP site, I ran out and bought the book (even though 2.2.6 was just published, it wasn't to be in stores for quite a while so 2.2.5 was the only edition to be had). After cutting my teeth on Slackware Linux a few years ago, and recently hacking through an installation of NetBSD, I can say that FreeBSD has come along way. Having said that, I have been using all kinds of Unix systems for many years -- from old Xenix machines in dental offices, to SunOS in academia to all the latest proprietary architectures in very large production environments. From a professional standpoint, FreeBSD's only major drawback is its name. In the real world, names are important. We don't like running heavily-used, production servers on something called Free-anything. It's a stigma that is unbecoming of a quality server product. I don't rent cars in far-off cities from Rent-a-Wreck, no matter how many times that John R. guy tells me "don't let the name fool you" in the commercials. I rent from Enterprise. While the FreeBSD project's goals are noble and the product is of great quality, the name really takes away alot of the product's credibility. Ironically, it grew out of a product called "BSD-Lite" that nobody took seriously when it was first released by CSRG. A large organization can probably get away with it, but a smaller outfit that is trying to build a good reputation in the field, the name stigmatizes the group, too. In a very large production environment, saying that you run FreeBSD is like saying that you use "cheap-OS" or "OS-without-quality" to the regular customer. Sure, cdrom.com runs FreeBSD, but they don't cater to the regular customer -- the masses of people with computers, having little technical knowledge but spending massive amounts of aggregated real money for a service. Just ask AOL, or even IBM. Now, I have to say that nobody reading this message would agree with me. But the people buying the services are most definitely not reading this list. They know next to nothing about FreeBSD's merits and good quality; however, hearing the name "FreeBSD" they immediatly get the impression that their production web site is running on "cheapo-OS," "not-good-enough-to-pay-for-OS" or, worst of all, "OS-without-support." Not that any of these things are necessarily true, but first impressions are important. Nicole's company is correct in using systems that are well-known, or at least "sound" well-known. An OS called Solaris, NetBSD, OpenBSD, or Linux surely holds more brand equity and trust than something called, simply, "FreeBSD." Enjoy, Kris Rehberg -- Kriston J. Rehberg http://kriston.net/ endeavor to persevere To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 21:10:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10789 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:10:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA10765 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:10:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 33834 invoked from network); 4 May 1998 04:10:41 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 4 May 1998 04:10:41 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm5-164.realtime.net [205.238.146.164]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA08172; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:10:33 -0500 Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 23:18:05 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Greg Lehey , Sue Blake , "Kenneth P. Stox" , Chris Swinford , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Slogan In-Reply-To: <28538.894199825@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ouch! I just sprained my brains! A conversation, world wide, with jokes in LATIN! ;-) Seriously, (really) the slogan, handle, or whatever should remain: Powerd by FreeBSD It is a simple clean statement. It also has the advantage of eliciting questions, pulling the reader in, rather than making a statement that chalenges. I don't think throwing a gauntlet down is what you want to do. Having someone ask you, "What is powered?" "How powerful is it?" is a good first step. Someone has posted something about this on bumper stickers (sorry but I don't remember who), and I would put one on _my_ car. I think it would cause people to ask me what it means. "Powered by FreeBSD" rather reminds me of the days when I had money, oh so long ago, and a big sports fishing boat "powered by Cummins", twin turbocharged diesels. Everyone would go "Oooooh". Even though my ego is paying karmic bills, I think the "Oooooh" part is what we are after and "Powered by FreeBSD" says it. Comments? John On Sun, 3 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I take that last message back. It's either "coii" or "coivi". > > The irony, of course, is that more people probably got the > joke with incorrect latin as would have gotten it without. :) > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 21:12:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11033 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:12:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11004 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:12:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id VAA24192; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:12:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 21:12:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing In-Reply-To: <354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Uhm.. in our case Free can also mean Free source. And with all the publicity open source movement is getting the name can actually play in our favour. Just next time someone say "Free OS" you say "Free Source". -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux -- DOS of the Unix world. On Sun, 3 May 1998, Kriston J. Rehberg wrote: >I am very impressed with FreeBSD. So impressed, that after installing >it from the FTP site, I ran out and bought the book (even though 2.2.6 >was just published, it wasn't to be in stores for quite a while so 2.2.5 >was the only edition to be had). After cutting my teeth on Slackware >Linux a few years ago, and recently hacking through an installation of >NetBSD, I can say that FreeBSD has come along way. > [crying about the name snipped] > >Enjoy, > >Kris Rehberg > >-- >Kriston J. Rehberg > http://kriston.net/ > endeavor to persevere > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 21:13:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11205 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:13:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11152 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02395; Sun, 3 May 1998 21:12:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 23:27:54 EDT." <354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 21:12:44 -0700 Message-ID: <2391.894255164@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG You're not the first to point this out, of course, but it's also a fact that we've put a LOT into promoting this particular brand name and it's easily conceivable that a name change at this stage would be a decision which hindsight would later reveal as responsible for pulling defeat from the jaws of victory. Despite the downsides of having a name like FreeBSD, the fact is that we're still doing very well and need to be extremely careful about what we do. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 22:10:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20793 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:10:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20774 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:10:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA04212; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:09:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805040509.WAA04212@implode.root.com> To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 23:27:54 EDT." <354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 22:09:14 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Nicole's company is correct in using systems that are well-known, or at >least "sound" well-known. An OS called Solaris, NetBSD, OpenBSD, or >Linux surely holds more brand equity and trust than something called, >simply, "FreeBSD." Some people will have this opinion, but many others will not. In the end, I think FreeBSD's name may actually be a significant reason why it is so successful. It seems incredibly ironic to me that in a country that was founded on the principle of freedom, that "free" has to some people become a dirty word. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 22:28:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23618 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:28:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23567 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:28:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA06105; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:57:11 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980504145711.M4777@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:57:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Dan Benjamin , dwilde1@ibm.net, "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Demo CDs (was: blessing) References: <001401bd7375$1741d480$6fd392c0@moses.hqs.crc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <001401bd7375$1741d480$6fd392c0@moses.hqs.crc.com>; from Dan Benjamin on Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:45:37AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 29 April 1998 at 9:45:37 -0400, Dan Benjamin wrote: >> This thing needs more flesh. Any ideas? What problems do you see? >> About the biggest one I see so far is how to find the mouse. It would >> be nice to modify startx to check for the mouse if no valid pointer >> section is found in the XF86Config file ("no mouse found: please move >> your mouse around until I say \"stop\""). Anybody know how to >> recognize a mouse? > > This is a good point - is it safe enough to assume that most people have com > 1 free? No. > Even on systems where there is a ps2 style mouse, com 1 is usually > unused. We could specify that they need to use a serial mouse on > com1 to get things started. It's not too much to ask IMHO. You mean to ask them to go out and buy another mouse? I'd say that's definitely too much to ask. It should be straightforward enough to find the mouse (first, you ask the user...) > -Dan B. > dan@bsdweek.com BSD Week? What's that? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 22:31:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24055 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:31:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24042 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:31:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id PAA06116; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:00:52 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980504150051.N4777@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:00:51 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Malartre Cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Demo CDs (was: blessing) References: <17537.893491629@time.cdrom.com> <3541F04D.474FE994@ibm.net> <19980429145242.02565@papillon.lemis.com> <3547A403.6E80E1A4@aei.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3547A403.6E80E1A4@aei.ca>; from Malartre on Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 06:04:52PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 29 April 1998 at 18:04:52 -0400, Malartre wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> OK, so what do we need? My thought is for two or three preinstalled >> versions: >> >> 1. A CD-ROM-based version which will boot from CD-ROM, Microsoft or >> floppy, create an MFS file system for things that really need to >> write to "disk", and other than that run from CD-ROM. Create the >> / file system on the mfs and symlinks to just about everything >> except /tmp, /var/tmp and /home to the CD-ROM. With any luck, we >> should be able to get away with 4 MB MFS. >> >> 2. PicoBSD for those who want it. Copy to floppy and execute. >> >> 3. In the background, for those who are hooked, the regular >> installable version of FreeBSD. >> >> Versions (1) and (2) would effectively be canned versions which >> couldn't easily be modified. Run with "standard" peripherals, >> including Enternet and SVGA to 1024x768, but with a base resolution of >> 640x480 so that X will come up on just about any currently available >> board. Include a functional fvwm95 window mangler so that what comes >> up looks pretty much like what Microsoft users are used to (can >> somebody come up with a daemon logo to fit where Microsoft puts its >> windows logo?). Also a PPP configuration that could easily be >> modified to suit just about anything that the standard Windows 95% can >> do. >> >> This thing needs more flesh. Any ideas? What problems do you see? >> About the biggest one I see so far is how to find the mouse. It would >> be nice to modify startx to check for the mouse if no valid pointer >> section is found in the XF86Config file ("no mouse found: please move >> your mouse around until I say \"stop\""). Anybody know how to >> recognize a mouse? > > Well, I dont see why you want to do that lite version.Can you explain me to > who you will give that package? Show the operating system to people who are really not that interested. > If you try to put that on a popular magazine, I dont think any Win95 > user will succesfully try it... People (maybe like me 4 weeks ago) > who use win95 will never understand your product in that *lite* way. Why not? > 1: What's your market: Win95 user, Linux user, Unix user, Server Admin, > kids? Win 95% user, kids. > 3: If its Win95 even Mac, no one will understand They will think it run > under Win95 and they will flood questions@freebsd.org Not if you explain it to them up front. > 5: You never need a Lite package. Do a MPEG video or an apps who will show > the > OS's power. Maybe a Java Applet on the web should be a good idea... First you need to get people to install it. > FreeBSD will never be for normal user who only want a good > MS-Words-like-apps. Win95 do the jobs. Your main target should be: > 1: Server (kill BSDi!) BSDI (not BSDi) are our friends. > 2: Take Linux user > 3: Take other Unix user > 4: *Maybe* WinNT user There aren't enough of all these put together out there to make it worthwhile putting in a mainstream magazine. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 22:53:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA26239 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:53:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA26230 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 22:53:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id BAA00133; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:48:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:53:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: David Greenman cc: "Kriston J. Rehberg" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing In-Reply-To: <199805040509.WAA04212@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 3 May 1998, David Greenman wrote: > Some people will have this opinion, but many others will not. In the end, > I think FreeBSD's name may actually be a significant reason why it is so > successful. It seems incredibly ironic to me that in a country that was > founded on the principle of freedom, that "free" has to some people become > a dirty word. AMEN! Pretty soon you wont have any 2nd, 5th, or any other rights. Clinton still has some time left in office :) Seriously though, I think that part of the problem with the "free" is bad mentality when talking about FreeBSD's name is that people don't realize just how used FreeBSD is in coporate america. No it isn't selling like Microsoft. But it also doesn't need to. It takes multiple NT servers to equal one FreeBSD server. It is alot easier to track NT sales #'s to FreeBSD. I have no proof of any of this, just speculation and deduction, but there are lot's of places running FreeBSD in some capacity. I don't know what capacity but places like bellcore, AT&T (and many sub-divisions therein), uu-net, and probably many others run FreeBSD on some of their servers. I think FreeBSD is very well respected in MANY places by MANY people. People who run the technical side of things in companies. And they have the right not to admit to it up front and outright. FreeBSD doesn't enforce a GPL like philosophy :) You run our OS and we FORCE you to proudly say so! heh It would be great if they did, it would probably do wonders for us and give us great publicity. But again they are not obligated to. And I could be dreaming this and imagining these places powering things with FreeBSD but i'm willing to bet im not. I dont think people realize this, simply because we don't have UU-Net or bellcore shouting "Hey! Over here! Run FreeBSD it is superior to eveything in existance! We power our electric socks with it!" Just some food for thought for those who think Free in FreeBSD has made FreeBSD a road less traveled. A deranged FreeBSD fanatic, Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 23:01:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27139 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:01:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27127 for ; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:01:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id BAA01077; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:56:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 02:01:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Greg Lehey cc: Dan Benjamin , dwilde1@ibm.net, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Demo CDs (was: blessing) In-Reply-To: <19980504145711.M4777@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > BSD Week? What's that? Heh I knew someone would catch that :) That i believe is dan's idea. A BSD magazine web based of course. To give us a place to spill articles and whatnot like linuxjournal, or linuxgazette. I started writing an article for it myself a few weeks ago when dan first mentioned it. Part of that PR hooha I wanted to see happen. This is a really good example of what I was talking about. I think it will be great if it actually works and people write for it. I'm just glad it has started. But I'll let dan dish info on BSD week :) Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 3 23:06:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27716 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:06:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from saten.dyn.ml.org (106ppp10.gulftel.com [208.226.46.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27710; Sun, 3 May 1998 23:06:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (advocacy@localhost) by saten.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA00494; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:03:58 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 01:03:57 -0500 (CDT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Jonathan Lemon cc: Nicole , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <19980503172238.09469@right.PCS> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Actually, it would be nice if M$ would do that, perhaps it would greatly > reduce the bugcount in their software and make it more useable. :-) > -- > Jonathan That would be a cool thing for M$ to do, that way some people would find out M$ 'borrowed' it from FreeBSD... and the word would spread until everyone knows that M$ is full of annoying worms. Those people would then goto ftp.freebsd.org and download the installation diskette and send back their M$ purchase. This would cause M$ to lose market share, and money.. forcing them to stop selling OS's, and die. Just a thought... Phillip Salzman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 01:11:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA12552 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:11:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zwei.siemens.at (zwei.siemens.at [193.81.246.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12524; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:10:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at) Received: from pc8811.gud.siemens.at (root@firix [10.1.143.100]) by zwei.siemens.at with ESMTP id KAA14634; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:08:09 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from pc8811.gud.siemens.at (pc8811.gud.siemens.co.at [195.3.22.159]) by pc8811.gud.siemens.at (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08217; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:09:19 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lada@pc8811.gud.siemens.at) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 10:09:19 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Siemens Austria AG From: Marino Ladavac To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley Cc: FreeBSD advocacy list , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass , Nicole , Eivind Eklund Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 03-May-98 Greg Lehey wrote: > Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? > You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. > Solaris 2.5.1: $ grep Regents /bin/* mailq: The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. mailstats: The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. newaliases: The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. vgrind:# Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California. HP-UX B.10.20 $ head /etc/copyright (c)Copyright 1983-1996 Hewlett-Packard Co., All Rights Reserved. (c)Copyright 1979, 1980, 1983, 1985-1993 The Regents of the Univ. of California (c)Copyright 1980, 1984, 1986 Novell, Inc. (c)Copyright 1986-1992 Sun Microsystems, Inc. (c)Copyright 1985, 1986, 1988 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (c)Copyright 1989-1993 The Open Software Foundation, Inc. (c)Copyright 1986 Digital Equipment Corp. (c)Copyright 1990 Motorola, Inc. (c)Copyright 1990, 1991, 1992 Cornell University (c)Copyright 1989-1991 The University of Maryland SINIX-Y 5.42 $ dbx a.out dbx 2.2A00 SINIX (Apr 18 1996) Copyright (C) Siemens Nixdorf Informationssysteme AG 1995 Base: BSD, Copyright (C) The Regents of the University of California All rights reserved etc. Okay, so the copyright notices (aside from HP) are not in extremely visible files, but they are indeed there. /Marino ---------------------------------- Marino Ladavac Date: 04-May-98 Time: 09:58:53 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 01:23:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA14321 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:23:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA14315 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 01:23:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA07510; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:53:04 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980504175303.C4777@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 17:53:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Marino Ladavac Cc: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Marino Ladavac on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 10:09:19AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id BAA14317 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Removing -chat. On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 10:09:19 +0200, Marino Ladavac wrote: > > On 03-May-98 Greg Lehey wrote: >> Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? >> You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. >> > > Solaris 2.5.1: > > $ grep Regents /bin/* > mailq: The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. > mailstats: The Regents of the University of California. All rights > reserved. > newaliases: The Regents of the University of California. All rights > reserved. > vgrind:# Copyright (c) 1980 Regents of the University of California. OK, these are all BSD programs and not part of the base system. > HP-UX B.10.20 > > $ head /etc/copyright > (c)Copyright 1983-1996 Hewlett-Packard Co., All Rights Reserved. > (c)Copyright 1979, 1980, 1983, 1985-1993 The Regents of the Univ. of California > (c)Copyright 1980, 1984, 1986 Novell, Inc. > (c)Copyright 1986-1992 Sun Microsystems, Inc. > (c)Copyright 1985, 1986, 1988 Massachusetts Institute of Technology > (c)Copyright 1989-1993 The Open Software Foundation, Inc. > (c)Copyright 1986 Digital Equipment Corp. > (c)Copyright 1990 Motorola, Inc. > (c)Copyright 1990, 1991, 1992 Cornell University > (c)Copyright 1989-1991 The University of Maryland I don't know this file. Looks like bare nones, anyway. > SINIX-Y 5.42 > > $ dbx a.out > dbx 2.2A00 SINIX (Apr 18 1996) > Copyright (C) Siemens Nixdorf Informationssysteme AG 1995 > Base: BSD, Copyright (C) The Regents of the University of California > All rights reserved I've worked on SINIX-N, which shares a code base with SINIX-Y, and I can confirm that the required copyright notices are missing in most of the BSD-derived sources. > Okay, so the copyright notices (aside from HP) are not in extremely visible > files, but they are indeed there. More to the point, they're not in the required form. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 03:21:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27208 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:21:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newport-1-13.quick.net (josh@newport-1-13.quick.net [207.212.160.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27188; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:20:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from josh@newport-1-13.quick.net) Received: (from josh@localhost) by newport-1-13.quick.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12154; Mon, 4 May 1998 03:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from josh) Message-ID: <19980504031954.A11688@newport-1-13.quick.net> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 03:19:54 -0700 From: Josh Gilliam To: Marino Ladavac , Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD advocacy list , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass , Nicole , Eivind Eklund Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.92.4 In-Reply-To: X-Editor: nvi 1.79 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386 X-IRC: soil Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? > > You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. Here is the only one I found in Windows 95: $ what /dos/windows/ftp.exe ftp.exe Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. -- Josh Gilliam 5333 E Los Arboles Ave 1 714 633 6499 Orange CA 92869-4216 USA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 04:16:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA07282 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:16:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA07207 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:16:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from <@rn.synx.com:root@synx.com>) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id MAA09905; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:19:39 +0100 Received: from rn by s3.synx.com id aa25707; 4 May 98 13:04 BST Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:14:10 +0200 (CEST) From: Remy NONNENMACHER Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing To: opsys@mail.webspan.net cc: dg@root.com, kriston@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: <9805041304.aa25707@s3.synx.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 4 May, Open Systems Networking wrote: > On Sun, 3 May 1998, David Greenman wrote: > >> Some people will have this opinion, but many others will not. In the end, >> I think FreeBSD's name may actually be a significant reason why it is so >> successful. It seems incredibly ironic to me that in a country that was >> founded on the principle of freedom, that "free" has to some people become >> a dirty word. > > AMEN! Pretty soon you wont have any 2nd, 5th, or any other rights. > Clinton still has some time left in office :) > > Seriously though, I think that part of the problem with the "free" is bad > mentality when talking about FreeBSD's name is that people don't realize > just how used FreeBSD is in coporate america. No it isn't selling like > Microsoft. But it also doesn't need to. It takes multiple NT servers to > equal one FreeBSD server. It is alot easier to track NT sales #'s to > FreeBSD. I have no proof of any of this, just speculation and deduction, > but there are lot's of places running FreeBSD in some capacity. I don't > know what capacity but places like bellcore, AT&T (and many sub-divisions > therein), uu-net, and probably many others run FreeBSD on some of their > servers. I think FreeBSD is very well respected in MANY places by MANY > people. People who run the technical side of things in companies. > And they have the right not to admit to it up front and outright. David, you are right, opsys (?) you are right, Kriston you are *ALSO* right !! Freedom is great but, in a lot of country, 'Free' means 'no cost'. I was able to introduce FreeBSD in many companies as replacement for NT boxes but never by using the 'FreeBSD' name directly. Always by having a long time talk with responsibles using the path : (initial state: the customer already decided for NT) - NT ? OK. So you have no valuable data, hum ? - Why i ask ? because there is no facility for administration and reliability is poor ! - Can i prove ? Well, i can but professionals who need reliability always choose Unix ! (names follow) - What Unix brand ? You know, they all come from the BSD branch ! - ATT ? no, no, they invented the 'Unix' word but they dropped all the stuff since 8 or 10 years ! - Cost a lot ? no. If you really need security, take BSDI or NetBSD ! - Linux ? Well it's great but if you need realiabilty AND speed, take FreeBSD, like (names follow) for instance. - FreeBSD. Yes - F R E E B S D. It's the most advanced brand of Unix. Really better than the old ATT one. - No 'Free' stands for 'open', no relation with it's internal quality - Well, you can call it BSD, if you want. However, BSD is not a unix-like, *IT IS* Unix. (Final State: discussing technical details about how to try it). Sorry all for having to say that in the current ideologically-religio-integro-sectism world ruled by M$, a name like BSD-NT is better than FreeBSD. Welcome to gates World !!. - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 04:53:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA13353 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:53:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fly.HiWAAY.net (root@fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA13334; Mon, 4 May 1998 04:53:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt2-52.HiWAAY.net [208.147.148.52]) by fly.HiWAAY.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA16635; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:53:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.8.8/8.8.4) with ESMTP id GAA07744; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:53:07 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199805041153.GAA07744@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list From: David Kelly Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-reply-to: Message from Phillip Salzman of "Mon, 04 May 1998 01:03:57 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 06:53:07 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Phillip Salzman writes: > > > > Actually, it would be nice if M$ would do that, perhaps it would greatly > > reduce the bugcount in their software and make it more useable. :-) > > -- > > Jonathan > > > That would be a cool thing for M$ to do, that way some people would > find out M$ 'borrowed' it from FreeBSD... and the word would spread > until everyone knows that M$ is full of annoying worms. Those people > would then goto ftp.freebsd.org and download the installation diskette > and send back their M$ purchase. > > This would cause M$ to lose market share, and money.. forcing them > to stop selling OS's, and die. I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well, at least not much in IBM scale. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 05:05:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14597 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:05:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA14589 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:05:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01580; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:04:45 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Message-ID: <19980504140444.A1526@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:04:44 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD advocacy list References: <19980504083310.B356@freebie.lemis.com> <19980504031954.A11688@newport-1-13.quick.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980504031954.A11688@newport-1-13.quick.net>; from Josh Gilliam on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:19:54AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi.. On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 03:19:54AM -0700, Josh Gilliam wrote: > $ what /dos/windows/ftp.exe > ftp.exe > Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. Now if that was under the GPL, then when M$'s lawyers prove that a web browser is a critical part of an OS, then we could point to the ftp client and say "That must be too? Please release Windows under the GPL..." :) -Jeremy -- | What will people think when they hear that I'm a Jesus freak? --+-- What will people do when they find that it's true? | I don't really care if they label me a Jesus Freak, | There ain't no disguising the truth. - d c Talk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 05:22:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA17906 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:22:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from misfit.users.xmission.com (misfit.users.xmission.com [207.135.128.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA17874 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 05:22:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from misfit@misfit.users.xmission.com) Received: (from misfit@localhost) by misfit.users.xmission.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id GAA00742; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:22:24 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from misfit) To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing References: <354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: misfit@xmission.com (Anthony C. Chavez) Date: 04 May 1998 06:22:19 -0600 In-Reply-To: "Kriston J. Rehberg"'s message of "Sun, 03 May 1998 23:27:54 -0400" Message-ID: <87n2cyp6o4.fsf@misfit.users.xmission.com> Lines: 47 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.3 - "Vatican City" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Kriston J. Rehberg" writes: [moderately-sized snip] While your commentary about FreeBSD's name getting in the way of its reputation in the OS market are true and valid, I have to say a few things on its defense. Let me begin by saying that I've heard this one a thousand times, and each time it gets more and more dull. If it's not your best friend who blurts it out at you (thinking that he's helping in some way, when in fact he's twisting the dagger that one of your enemies placed in your back), it's the insane, unstable, and unreliable power structure that rules this world with an iron fist. Granted, a lot (and I do mean A LOT) of the free software of yesterday is quite bluntly, crap. But, times, they are a-changing! The free Un*x world is in a state of flux. Things are constantly changing. Newer and better ideas are replacing old ones and things are becoming very positive. I have been a free Un*x user (including Linux and FreeBSD) since the week after Windows95 came out (an interesting story is attached to that---I used Win95 for only a couple of days before installing Linux over it and haven't gone back). I have seen the once cluttered and unattractive world of the free Un*x evolve into something that is becoming more and more beautiful as time passes. A good example of this metamorphosis would be to compare something like fvwm (old and weak, but tolerable if you take the time to work with it) with AfterStep or WindowMaker (both excellent clones of the NeXT desktop). Both are a bit unstable at the moment, but are definitely showing promise. New features are being added constantly. Now, I said your statements were true, and I'm repeating it here. It is true that FreeBSD (and other free software) will get associated with cheap imitations, the poor freeware of yesterday, etc., but I really don't think that anyone already using FreeBSD really cares. We already know that it is power in its most raw form, without a lot of corporate oppression. I hope that FreeBSD's name will NEVER change. On a positive note, it keeps those "in the know" in control, and the multitudes of clueless idiots (who hide behind Micros*ft or other companies because they don't want to take the time to really learn about computers) out of the picture. Face it. The best things in life are free. -- Anthony C. Chavez To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 06:51:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01712 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:51:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA01668 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:51:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atf3r@cs.virginia.edu) Received: from ares.cs.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa07363; 4 May 98 9:50 EDT Received: from mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (mamba-fo.cs.Virginia.EDU [128.143.136.18]) by ares.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA28231; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:50:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (atf3r@localhost) by mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA02704; Mon, 4 May 1998 09:50:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: mamba.cs.Virginia.EDU: atf3r owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 09:50:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Adrian T. Filipi-Martin" Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Nicole cc: Brett Glass , FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 3 May 1998, Nicole wrote: > I have heard one good argument against the FreeBSD liscense altho I > don't know h ow true it is.. > > Their agument was that the license would allow someone (like M$) to take > Freebs d and add some propritary stuff to it (like Front page > extensions, active X etc) and sell it without having to give anything > back to the FreeBSD group or even s tate that it was FreeBSD. The niggest problem with this argument IMHO is that I'd be happy to see *BSD code incorperated into any MS product. If anything it would be the part that works. If that API experienced growth in its usage because it enabled robust, portable applications so much the better. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 06:55:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02679 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:55:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA02651; Mon, 4 May 1998 06:55:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id PAA16501; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:55:36 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:55:36 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley References: <199805041153.GAA07744@nospam.hiwaay.net> Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse / KRST / PUMS / YASMW X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 04 May 1998 15:55:35 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Kelly's message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 06:53:07 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Kelly writes: > I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser > source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same > with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well, > at least not much in IBM scale. You might be surprised. The reason why you're not seeing OS/2 very much any more is that IBM is no longer marketing it as an end-user OS, which does not mean that they're not making any money selling it. -- Noone else has a .sig like this one. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 07:03:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA04070 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA04051 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:03:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-60.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.60]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA23968; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:03:44 GMT Message-ID: <354DCA8A.52A65000@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 07:02:50 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A GUI greyscale interface by default References: <1772.894250282@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Okay, okay, peace! Let's stop wasting bandwidth and get back to improving it! :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 07:11:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05745 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:11:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA05738 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:11:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-60.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.60]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA139798; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:11:47 GMT Message-ID: <354DCC6E.FCF041A4@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 07:10:54 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: "Kriston J. Rehberg" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing References: <199805040509.WAA04212@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I think FreeBSD's name may actually be a significant reason why it is so > successful. It seems incredibly ironic to me that in a country that was > founded on the principle of freedom, that "free" has to some people become > a dirty word. Hear, hear! Let the dinosaurs stomp, we small furry mammals will continue to munch away around their feet! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 07:54:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA11460 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:54:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA11432 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 07:54:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-49.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.49]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA100434; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:54:25 GMT Message-ID: <354DCE1A.83096DD5@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 07:18:02 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Anthony C. Chavez" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing References: <354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net> <87n2cyp6o4.fsf@misfit.users.xmission.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Face it. The best things in life are free. Ahhh! Now THERE'S our Slogan. The best things in life are free! FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 08:12:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14998 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:12:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail3.mailsorter.net (mail3.mailsorter.net [207.67.128.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA14989 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:12:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kriston@ibm.net) Received: from slip.dc.us.ibm.net ([204.148.100.2]) by mail3.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA3109 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:11:32 -0700 Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:11:34 -0400 Message-ID: <3105-Mon04May1998111134-0400-kriston@ibm.net> From: kriston@ibm.net (Kriston J. Rehberg) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <199805041153.GAA07744@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <199805041153.GAA07744@nospam.hiwaay.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Kelly writes: > >I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser >source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same >with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well, >at least not much in IBM scale. That's a great idea, but IBM positions OS/2 as a sort of "replacement" for Windows NT and Novell servers. When I used to use OS/2 a lot (just before Windows 95 came out) I would get catalogs from IBM that promoted the OS/2 Warp Server, which provides directory replication (to get around Novell and NT license limits) and software products that run on OS/2 to completely replace Novell and NT servers, with services such as NDS, SMB "Lan Manager" things, and complete TCP/IP services all on one machine. I think they still promote OS/2 this way today... they exclusively used OS/2 on the internal PC's when I worked there, anyway. I don't think they want to lose whatever equity they have left in that system. But this is old news; perhaps I'm waxing nostalgic. Kris -- Kriston J. Rehberg AOL: Kriston http://kriston.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 08:21:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17060 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:21:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paris.dppl.com (exim@paris.dppl.com [205.230.74.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA16996; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yds@ingress.com) Received: from ichiban.ingress.com (ichiban) [205.230.64.31] by paris.dppl.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yWN3D-0004g5-00; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:21:07 -0400 Message-ID: <014301bd7770$42351720$1f40e6cd@ichiban.ingress.com> From: "Yarema" To: , "FreeBSD advocacy list" Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:21:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser >source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same >with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well, >at least not much in IBM scale. Hmm.. They already have a suitable (read: very BSD like) license/Copyright at http://www.clark.net/~proberts/vmailer/COPYRIGHT.html: -----begin----- Copyright (c) 1997 by International Business Machines, Inc. International Business Machines, Inc. (hereinafter called IBM) grants permission under its copyrights to use, copy, modify, and distribute this Software with or without fee, provided that all paragraphs of this notice appear in all copies, and that the name of IBM not be used in connection with the marketing of any product incorporating the Software or modifications thereof, without specific, written prior permission. To the extent it has a right to do so, IBM grants an immunity from suit under its patents, if any, for the use, sale or manufacture of products to the extent that such products are used for electronic mail transport and delivery by means of the Software. No immunity is granted for any product per se or for any other function of any product. THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", AND IBM DISCLAIMS ALL WARRANTIES, INCLUDING ALL IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. IN NO EVENT SHALL IBM BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, DIRECT, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES OR ANY DAMAGES WHATSOEVER ARISING OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE USE OR PERFORMANCE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF IBM IS APPRISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. -----end----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 08:31:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18935 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:31:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18920 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 08:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02640; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:28:56 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Message-ID: <19980504172856.A1884@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 17:28:56 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: dwilde1@ibm.net, "Anthony C. Chavez" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing Mail-Followup-To: dwilde1@ibm.net, "Anthony C. Chavez" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net> <87n2cyp6o4.fsf@misfit.users.xmission.com> <354DCE1A.83096DD5@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <354DCE1A.83096DD5@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 07:18:02AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi... On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 07:18:02AM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > > Face it. The best things in life are free. > > Ahhh! Now THERE'S our Slogan. > > > The best things in life are free! > > FreeBSD Sorry, my copyright... it lost in the vote earlier (check the archives) to "the power to serve". -Jeremy -- | What will people think when they hear that I'm a Jesus freak? --+-- What will people do when they find that it's true? | I don't really care if they label me a Jesus Freak, | There ain't no disguising the truth. - d c Talk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 10:20:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10442 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:20:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from novell.com (prv-mail20.Provo.Novell.COM [137.65.40.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA10406 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 10:20:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drdavis@xmission.com) Received: from xmission.com ([137.65.137.128]) by prv-mail20.provo.novell.com; Mon, 04 May 1998 11:19:17 -0600 Message-ID: <354DF883.6719AD73@xmission.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:18:59 -0600 From: DRDavis X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: "Kriston J. Rehberg" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing also SLOGAN! References: <199805040509.WAA04212@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG And with that David just hit upon the slogan for FreeBSD! Free(dom)BSD! Darren R. Davis David Greenman wrote: > >Nicole's company is correct in using systems that are well-known, or at > >least "sound" well-known. An OS called Solaris, NetBSD, OpenBSD, or > >Linux surely holds more brand equity and trust than something called, > >simply, "FreeBSD." > > Some people will have this opinion, but many others will not. In the end, > I think FreeBSD's name may actually be a significant reason why it is so > successful. It seems incredibly ironic to me that in a country that was > founded on the principle of freedom, that "free" has to some people become > a dirty word. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 11:51:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28544 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:51:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28539 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 11:51:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-57.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.57]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA26496; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:50:11 GMT Message-ID: <354E0DBD.A7220EC5@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 11:49:33 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Lea CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing References: <354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net> <87n2cyp6o4.fsf@misfit.users.xmission.com> <354DCE1A.83096DD5@ibm.net> <19980504172856.A1884@shale.csir.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremy Lea wrote: > > Hi... > > On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 07:18:02AM -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > > > Face it. The best things in life are free. > > > > Ahhh! Now THERE'S our Slogan. > > > > > > The best things in life are free! > > > > FreeBSD > > Sorry, my copyright... it lost in the vote earlier (check the archives) to > "the power to serve". Okay, I don't want credit, I just want great slogans!!! ><> ! --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 12:51:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09138 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09111 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 12:50:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26150; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:49:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:49:26 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Greg Lehey cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: screeshots part deux In-Reply-To: <19980504123417.D4777@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Howdy, > Nice stuff. Maybe I'll get something for you as well. One point, > though: I think this is really a case where a full-sized image is > important, and it should be as sharp as possible. This means .gif, > not .jpeg. I'd suggest that you reduce the images to thumbnails and > use them as a link to the full-size version for people who want it. > If this is a bandwidth problem for you, I'm sure we could arrange to > put it on one of the FreeBSD machines. All good suggestions - people sent me jpg's so that's what I used. In addition I didn't figure a lot of people would want to spend a lot of time downloading one 600 kB image. As noted on the page, I didn't spend a lot of time trying to get things looking "nice" as my thesis is calling. :-P Anyway, I received a few more and Jordan told me to go ahead and grab the ones from Walnut Creek and I'd be happy to receive any from you Greg (and any others). Bandwidth isn't really a problem, especially since school here is about to end and all the undergrads will be going home. Sometimes the link to here is slow though. I do plan on fixing things up (making smaller thumbnails etc) and such. I need to finish my afterstep-1.4.5.* port first and do some research before I can get to this though so it may be a week before things get updated. The non-updated page can be found at: http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/screenshots.html ********************************************************* Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 13:54:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22837 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22799; Mon, 4 May 1998 13:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09692; Mon, 4 May 1998 14:54:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 14:54:15 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: InfoWorld brawl esclates Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The brawl in the InfoWorld forum is accelerating. After pointing out some of the recent statistics from wcarchive, showing the increase in FreeBSD downloads, I've been branded as a "zealot," as "hyping" FreeBSD, and as a stooge for large corporations. I didn't realize that the religious fervor among the Stallmanites was so intense, or that they had the blinders on so tight. I'm now convinced that these folks ARE out to kill the *BSDs. Apparently, they're a threat to the GPL zealots for two reasons. First, they prove that the restrictive terms of the GPL are not necessary to the success of collaboratively developed softwre; and second, they provide the access to re-usable source code that Richard Stallman hoped to deny to commercial software publishers. This latter point seems to be a source of real animosity among those who subscribe to Stallman's anti-business views. So, don't get too comfortable, guys. If what I see is any indication, the BSDs are seriously under attack. They might do well to respond -- with hard numbers, proven advantages, AND a bit of zealotry of their own. Oh, and while I happen to be on the subject, I just visited the site http://www.opensource.org and noted that it read like a commercial for Linux -- lots of mentions of Linux and only one of FreeBSD. So, I e-mailed Eric Raymond about this, asking why FreeBSD had been relegated to a footnote on their page at http://www.opensource.org/products.html while Linux was mentioned at the top and throughout. He said, "Send me information on a conmmercial FreeBSD vendor with a > $1M annual runrate and I'll use it." Hmmm. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 15:39:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18151 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:39:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pan.ch.intel.com (pan.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18120 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:38:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by pan.ch.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA19955 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:27:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (jreynold@hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.7.6/8.7.3paulmail) with ESMTP id PAA139096 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 15:27:06 -0700 Received: by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.8.6/) id SAA17313; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:26:46 -0400 (EDT) From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:26:45 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: linux world contemplate packages ... X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13646.16397.40516.303293@hip186.ch.intel.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just saw this on slashdot.org: http://slashdot.org/articles/9804041623214.shtml they are debating the various package formats amongst all the different "distributions of linux" ... yet another thing I like about FreeBSD--the simple packages. What? Your system doesn't have something it needs, wait a sec, I'll go fetch(1) it ... blah blah blah ... It's worth a read to see whats going on over there. Perhaps we can pick up some ideas for filling the gaps in our own package implementation (I don't really know what they might be as I see no problems as an "end user" but ...) -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds C-TEAM CLE - Central Design Services | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 16:01:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22806 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:01:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22735; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA00268; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:00:44 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA07828; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:00:40 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980505010036.51517@follo.net> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:00:36 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates References: <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:54:15PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:54:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > The brawl in the InfoWorld forum is accelerating. After pointing out some > of the recent statistics from wcarchive, showing the increase in FreeBSD > downloads, I've been branded as a "zealot," as "hyping" FreeBSD, and as > a stooge for large corporations. I didn't realize that the religious > fervor among the Stallmanites was so intense, or that they had the blinders > on so tight. Part of this is because you quote Slackware numbers at them. The numbers are overall (Linux is going linear growth, FreeBSD still on exponential), not just against Slackware. And all of it is anecdotes. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 16:23:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26835 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26738; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:23:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11721; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:23:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805042323.RAA11721@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 17:23:20 -0600 To: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-Reply-To: <19980505010036.51517@follo.net> References: <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org> <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I was under the impression that dg had recently published hard numbers showing this trend. It'd certainly help to quote them there. --Brett At 01:00 AM 5/5/98 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:54:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >> The brawl in the InfoWorld forum is accelerating. After pointing out some >> of the recent statistics from wcarchive, showing the increase in FreeBSD >> downloads, I've been branded as a "zealot," as "hyping" FreeBSD, and as >> a stooge for large corporations. I didn't realize that the religious >> fervor among the Stallmanites was so intense, or that they had the blinders >> on so tight. > >Part of this is because you quote Slackware numbers at them. The numbers >are overall (Linux is going linear growth, FreeBSD still on exponential), >not just against Slackware. > >And all of it is anecdotes. > >Eivind. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 17:00:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03159 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:00:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03042 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:59:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id QAA23884; Mon, 4 May 1998 16:59:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 16:59:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Marc van Kempen cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: 3D "blender" package from NeoGeo now released. In-Reply-To: <199805041007.MAA14164@nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello Marc, It might seem that FreeBSD group makes less noise then Linux. And it is true to some extent because mostly FreeBSD users are more technical then Linux users and tend to try and solve problems on their own. I agree with you that we need more participation and simply noise to stand out in the computer world. Look, everyone complains about Windows and see how popular that is. Ok, I am going to walk down the hallway and scream something about FreeBSD now. Yeah, that's it. *grin* -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux -- DOS of the Unix world. On Mon, 4 May 1998, Marc van Kempen wrote: >> If you ever wonder why linux is getting ahead , cold or no response >> to key strategic technologies such as what "blender" represents is >> one of the reasons that linux is getting ahead of FreeBSD . We >> have a FreeBSD friendly vendor let us no lose this relationship. >> >> Amancio >> > >Hi, > >I'm responsible for advising NeoGeo about the Linux and FreeBSD >versions. I would like to take this opportunity to react to >Amancio's remarks. > >To date I haven't received one single bug report and only very >little feedback from the FreeBSD users. > >Despite the fact that I prefer FreeBSD over Linux any day, you >are not making yourselves credible as a commercial market, or >even a fun market, enthusiasm is a powerful motivator! > >Regards, >Marc van Kempen. > >---------------------------------------------------- >Marc van Kempen BowTie Technology >Email: marc@bowtie.nl WWW & Databases >tel. +31 40 2 43 20 65 >fax. +31 40 2 44 21 86 http://www.bowtie.nl >---------------------------------------------------- > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 17:01:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA03424 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:01:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA03378; Mon, 4 May 1998 17:01:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from const. (tulip29.verinet.com [199.45.181.221]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id SAA28389; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:01:11 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by const. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25441; Mon, 4 May 1998 18:01:31 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 18:01:31 -0600 (MDT) From: allen campbell Message-Id: <199805050001.SAA25441@const.> To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no, dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > David Kelly writes: > > I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser > > source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same > > with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well, > > at least not much in IBM scale. > > You might be surprised. > > The reason why you're not seeing OS/2 very much any more is that IBM > is no longer marketing it as an end-user OS, which does not mean that > they're not making any money selling it. I noticed the 390 site is promoting system management tools implemented on OS/2. It seems OS/2 has a role to play as the PC client for the big iron. -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 19:13:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27608 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:13:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@libya-226.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.227.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27545 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:13:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07639 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:13:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:13:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: linux world contemplate packages ... In-Reply-To: <13646.16397.40516.303293@hip186.ch.intel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG My favorite so far: FreeBSD port system. by Tsarnon (psh1@cornell.edu) on Monday May 04, @08:15 Everyone should have someone show them the FreeBSD port system. Every die-hard Linux person that I have shown it to went away jealous. [....] - alex "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 19:17:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28710 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:17:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA28673; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:17:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17681; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:16:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> To: Brett Glass cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 17:23:20 MDT." <199805042323.RAA11721@lariat.lariat.org> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 19:16:02 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >I was under the impression that dg had recently published hard numbers >showing this trend. It'd certainly help to quote them there. No, I've never quoted hard numbers. I think doing so, as a contractor for WC CDROM, would be unethical and possibly illegal. I think it would be best to drop this type of 'attack' against the Stallmanites as it will only serve to further polarize people against us and I definately DON'T want that to happen. We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and working on converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of rhetoric. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 19:26:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAB00706 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:26:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00595 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 19:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-150.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.150]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA79946; Tue, 5 May 1998 02:25:53 GMT Message-ID: <354E7762.DE1F3279@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 19:20:18 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates References: <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > "Send me information on a conmmercial FreeBSD vendor with a > $1M annual > runrate and I'll use it." > > Hmmm. Walnut Creek? NCI? Brett, real sysadmins know about FreeBSD. Look at Andreas' links, there are a number of articles out there that mention FreeBSD right alongside Solaris and AIX as viable platforms for _enterprise_ software. I think we should concentrate more on our software and ease-of-CLI-use and our demo tools. Don't panic, just write code. You've got to remember the mentality of the newsgroup surfer. He's a lot different than InfoWorld's print readership. Most of those who're responding to your posts are teenage surfers with nothing better to do. Even Joe Dad or Joe CEO -- who're serious contenders for our business -- won't go there. How many _real_software_writers_ like John Dyson or Amancio Hasty post responses to your posts??? There are some threads on these lists that are getting just as religious. Nobody wins, because we all waste bandwidth reading it and nobody is learning or writing code here. I don't like losing, so end of my input. I've got too much to learn. :)))) --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 20:25:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10677 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:25:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10651 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:25:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08212; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:23:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: John Reynolds~ cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: linux world contemplate packages ... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 15:26:45 PDT." <13646.16397.40516.303293@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 20:23:35 -0700 Message-ID: <8208.894338615@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I just saw this on slashdot.org: > > http://slashdot.org/articles/9804041623214.shtml Blech. I don't participate in dicussions there because their braindead (sorry, braindead) discussion threader makes it too darn difficult to figure out where the discussion is at any given point and which of the many independent threads one should reply to. It's just not worth the hassle when I can just stick to NEWS (which has its own problems, yes, but at least they're tractable ones for me). In any case, I don't see anything in any of the discussion there that hasn't been said before and in considerably more detail. Everyone basically knows what the All Singing All Dancing package manager of the future is supposed to do and they also know that RPMs, DEBs TGZs and all the other current packaging formats are *first generation* efforts which are deeply in need of moving on to the second generation. Even the staunchest adherent to any of the current package standards will admit that there's a growing list of wish list items for their pet standard, some of which are quite important (like signatures, better "auditing" of changes, improved [or any] provisions for updates, etc), that really need to go into the 2nd generation effort. We finished our own 1st generation packaging technology several years back and are now simply struggling with having become stuck on our way to implementing the 2nd. :( In any case, it's forward rather than lateral movement that we need right now and switching to someone else's 1st generation technology would be an example of lateral (if not backward) movement. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 20:33:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11711 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:33:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA11690; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:33:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id UAA18764; Mon, 4 May 1998 20:33:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 20:33:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review. In their April issue we find the following: "FreeBSD, for example, is most robust at supporting high-end servers on Pentium hardware, as its TCP/IP stack is derivative of the extremely mature stack developed under DARPA's aegis at Berkeley, and it has been extensively optimized for Pentium hardware. Mr. Protocol prefers it for his own desktop network system, and it makes a good liniment and furniture polish as well". This is from "Ask Mr. Protocol" section written by Michael O'Brien -- it talked about free source and etc. Comments go to amp@cpg.com -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 21:07:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15359 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:07:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15342 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id VAA15376; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:06:49 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id VAA05335; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:06:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 21:05:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: David Greenman cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-Reply-To: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 May 1998, David Greenman wrote: >We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and working on >converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of >rhetoric. I have posted to this effect before. I am registering my support for Mr. Greenman's position. Everyone who supports free software should support each other. If there is a faction within the free software community that is antgonistic, that faction should be left alone to rant in their own little corner of the net. We do not want to be that faction. We do not even want to be _perceived_ as being in that faction. Cooperation is the cornerstone of free software. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 21:14:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16491 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:14:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16353; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:13:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14997; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:13:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805050413.WAA14997@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:13:47 -0600 To: dg@root.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Actually, since FreeBSD is the underdog, the aftermath of even a knock-down drag-out brawl would, in the long run, help it, because it would raise awareness. Since people don't take EITHER side in such a free-for-all at face value, they usually decide they want to find out for themselves. Which benefits the product that's less widely known -- in this case, FreeBSD. Now, I'm not saying that I *like* such brawls or want to see them -- only that if they do happen they won't hurt the cause in the long run. Silence will. I agree that WC CD-ROM should approve any release of numbers. But why wouldn't they, if it gave them an opportunity to boost sales? --Brett At 07:16 PM 5/4/98 -0700, David Greenman wrote: >>I was under the impression that dg had recently published hard numbers >>showing this trend. It'd certainly help to quote them there. > > No, I've never quoted hard numbers. I think doing so, as a contractor for >WC CDROM, would be unethical and possibly illegal. I think it would be best >to drop this type of 'attack' against the Stallmanites as it will only serve >to further polarize people against us and I definately DON'T want that to >happen. We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and >working on converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of >rhetoric. > >-DG > >David Greenman >Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 21:20:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17643 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:20:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17633 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA06147; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:20:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805050420.VAA06147@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 19:20:18 PDT." <354E7762.DE1F3279@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:20:24 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Guys, We *do* need to respond to the linux religious fervor both John Dyson and I have posted to the InfoWorld forum and yes this is a real idealogy religious war fare . Last but not least we are all too cozy in our environ we need to go out more often and spread the word . We should not try to put down linux rather we should focus that we are a strong viable alternative OS. From time to time is okay to take a shot at the linux crowd again in balance we should demonstrate our options. Last but not least I am just asking the group to just go out and chat we the linux folks -- just make believe that you are in a freebsd mailing list -- is that simple 8) Have Fun, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 21:44:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21175 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:44:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21130 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:43:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA08838 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 21:43:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:43:37 -0700 Message-ID: <8830.894343417.1@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----- =_aaaaaaaaaa" Content-Description: Blind Carbon Copy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG To: undisclosed-recipients:; ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Description: Original Message To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 14:54:15 MDT." <199805042054.OAA09692@lariat.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 21:43:37 -0700 Message-ID: <8830.894343417@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > "Send me information on a conmmercial FreeBSD vendor with a > $1M annual > runrate and I'll use it." That'd be Walnut Creek CDROM, for one. They do easily over $1M in FreeBSD business a year. However, there's also the fact that I really could care less just what Eric Raymond has to say or thinks about free software because his opinion is no more objective than, say, Bill Gates' on the topic. I bear the man no personal animosity, don't get me wrong, but it's also extremely clear that he's a Man On A Mission where it comes to Linux and any pretense of impartiality on his part would be laughable. To his credit, I don't believe he's ever claimed such impartiality either and I'd certainly no more attempt to convince Eric Raymond to help plug FreeBSD or even report on it objectively than I would Linus Torvalds. In one very definite sense, he's "the competition" and I'm no more surprised to see paeans to Linux on www.opensource.org (however poorly named it might be) than I am to see them at www.redhat.com. Sorry, them's just the facts! - Jordan ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 22:06:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24294 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:06:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24270 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:06:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id WAA17850 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:06:34 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id WAA30227 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 22:05:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Open Hardware Certification Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.openhardware.org/ This organization's goals are in tune with that of free software. Please keep them in mind when you go about your daily advocating. Every manufacturer that subscribes to the principles of Open Hardware is helping free OSes to better support existing hardware. This will go far toward advancing the user base of FreeBSD. This group is in its infancy. It seems they only got started in August of last year. Hopefully, with support of users, they can become influential enough that many, many OEMs will make driver source and other documents freely available. (Side note: I have contacted them but they have not returned my message yet.) Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 22:28:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27520 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:28:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA27500 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:28:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 36802 invoked from network); 5 May 1998 05:28:12 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 5 May 1998 05:28:12 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm7-209.realtime.net [204.96.0.209]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA26828; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:28:09 -0500 Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 00:35:08 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 May 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Mon, 4 May 1998, David Greenman wrote: > > >We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and working on > >converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of > >rhetoric. > > I have posted to this effect before. I am registering my support for Mr. > Greenman's position. > > Everyone who supports free software should support each other. If there is > a faction within the free software community that is antgonistic, that > faction should be left alone to rant in their own little corner of the > net. > > We do not want to be that faction. We do not even want to be _perceived_ > as being in that faction. Cooperation is the cornerstone of free software. > Fervor is appropriate in promoting one's position but should be positive. I agree with David and you Jason. Do not sink into a brawl in the gutter but actively promote FreeBSD. We have nothing to apologize for or squabble about. A lot of bandwidth is being wasted on "did you read what they said?!" Spend it on promotion. John Powered by FreeBSD. All Day, Every Day... Non Stop. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 22:36:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28605 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:36:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28582 for ; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:36:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06738; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:36:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805050536.WAA06738@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 19:20:18 PDT." <354E7762.DE1F3279@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:36:05 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I forgot something and I want to get back to hacking after this. I really appreciate what Brett is doing and he needs a little bit of support from this group so please help him out. Again, if you are posting on a forum such as the one in Infoworld just pretend that you are chatting on a FreeBSD mailing lists. Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 22:40:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28987 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:40:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28981; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:40:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA06755; Mon, 4 May 1998 22:40:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805050540.WAA06755@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 04 May 1998 17:23:20 MDT." <199805042323.RAA11721@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:40:09 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Three out of the top of my head: Walnut Creek, Yahoo, Whistle... Also, I happen to have worked for a company which have sold multi million dollar systems which use FreeBSD. Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 23:32:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA04255 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:32:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA04242; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:32:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04056; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:32:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199805050632.BAA04056@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-Reply-To: <199805050540.WAA06755@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 4, 98 10:40:09 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:32:23 -0500 (EST) Cc: brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amancio Hasty said: > > Three out of the top of my head: > Walnut Creek, Yahoo, Whistle... > > Also, I happen to have worked for a company which have sold multi million > dollar systems which use FreeBSD. > The biggest problem that I have with criteria like $1M or somesuch is that kind of info is often proprietary, and serious businesses often don't freely release such info in detail. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 4 23:37:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05224 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:37:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA05203; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:37:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07404; Mon, 4 May 1998 23:37:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805050637.XAA07404@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 01:32:23 CDT." <199805050632.BAA04056@dyson.iquest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 23:37:36 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, We can just state that some companies made > $1M in other words that they are a serious business and that the details are confidential. With respect to the linux side, we can always ask for detail financial data to backup their claims 8) Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 00:19:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10653 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:19:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA10638; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:19:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16851; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:19:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805050719.BAA16851@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 01:19:17 -0600 To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199805050632.BAA04056@dyson.iquest.net> References: <199805050540.WAA06755@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:32 AM 5/5/98 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >The biggest problem that I have with criteria like $1M or somesuch >is that kind of info is often proprietary, and serious businesses >often don't freely release such info in detail. > >-- >John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, >dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, >jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. There's a bigger problem still. What about new products? Or small ones that can't command a high price on their own but could e added to a larger package? Eric claims that the site is designed to interest businesses in selling copies of "open source" software. But those businesspeople aren't dumb; they don't want to hear about the items that 20 vendors are already selling. They're looking for "sleepers" and for new opportunities. But if a product has to be grossing $1M to get in the door, forget that. I also noted, when talking to Eric, that all of the Linux vendors make it difficult or impossible to do a Net install. (Red Hat, for example, can't use PPP. What percentage of Net users out there have something other than a dial-up connection? And Debian and Slackware can't do it at all, to my knowledge.) So, they'll sell more disks -- even if they have a smaller installed base. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 00:37:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13182 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:37:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.webweaver.net (xwin.webweaver.net [208.138.29.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA13174 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:36:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.webweaver.net) Received: (from nicole@localhost) by xwin.webweaver.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id AAA07956; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:37:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:37:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: Open Systems Networking Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, "Kriston J. Rehberg" , David Greenman Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA13176 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 04-May-98 Open Systems Networking wisely wrote: > Seriously though, I think that part of the problem with the "free" is bad > mentality when talking about FreeBSD's name is that people don't realize > just how used FreeBSD is in coporate america. No it isn't selling like > Microsoft. But it also doesn't need to. It takes multiple NT servers to > equal one FreeBSD server. It is alot easier to track NT sales #'s to > FreeBSD. I have no proof of any of this, just speculation and deduction, > but there are lot's of places running FreeBSD in some capacity. I don't > know what capacity but places like bellcore, AT&T (and many sub-divisions > therein), uu-net, and probably many others run FreeBSD on some of their > servers. I think FreeBSD is very well respected in MANY places by MANY > people. People who run the technical side of things in companies. > And they have the right not to admit to it up front and outright. > FreeBSD doesn't enforce a GPL like philosophy :) You run our OS and we > FORCE you to proudly say so! heh > It would be great if they did, it would probably do wonders for us and > give us great publicity. But again they are not obligated to. > And I could be dreaming this and imagining these places powering things > with FreeBSD but i'm willing to bet im not. I dont think people realize > this, simply because we don't have UU-Net or bellcore shouting "Hey! Over > here! Run FreeBSD it is superior to eveything in existance! We power our > electric socks with it!" Just some food for thought for those who think > Free in FreeBSD has made FreeBSD a road less traveled. > Right! That is why I feel we really need a web page on the FreeBSD site that highlites the companies more. Then there is a place for people to see someone from BigXCo saying " we use FreeBSD" That is something can can be looked at, counted and pa raded. Nicole nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ ------------------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 00:38:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13414 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:38:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA13401; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:38:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA07880; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:38:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805050738.AAA07880@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 01:19:17 MDT." <199805050719.BAA16851@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:38:28 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We can setup our own version of opensource web page and include linux related companies on small fonts . Additionally, as you suggested we can have a different criteria for entering products or companies for instance cool products which uses an alternative OS :FreeBSD. In other words, we can create our own FreeBSD slanted sites . Cool sites : http://www.thinker.org serves images from its 3 tera byte plus image database. Yahoo! it is FreeBSD : nice pointer to our news letter. And the Comdex network appliance winner is ... The InterJet by Whistle Corporation . Guess what OS the InterJet runs? FreeBSD of course. Sleep safely because FreeBSD is watching the skies ( a little while ago someone was using FreeBSD for radar control ) Fly in comfort with jet engines designed with FreeBSD ( there was a company in the list designing jet engines with FreeBSD) Too bad we can not afford a Wall Street Journal full page ad :( Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 00:40:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13961 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:40:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA13868; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:40:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id RAA11650; Tue, 5 May 1998 17:10:01 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980505171001.V4777@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:10:01 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jan B. Koum " , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up. References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:20PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 20:33:20 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review. > In their April issue we find the following: > "FreeBSD, for example, is most robust at supporting high-end servers on > Pentium hardware, as its TCP/IP stack is derivative of the extremely > mature stack developed under DARPA's aegis at Berkeley, and it has been > extensively optimized for Pentium hardware. Mr. Protocol prefers it for > his own desktop network system, and it makes a good liniment and furniture > polish as well". > This is from "Ask Mr. Protocol" section written by Michael O'Brien > -- it talked about free source and etc. Comments go to amp@cpg.com Hmm, that wouldn't be our Mike O'Brien now, would it? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 00:47:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA15500 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:47:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.webweaver.net (xwin.webweaver.net [208.138.29.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA15494 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:47:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.webweaver.net) Received: (from nicole@localhost) by xwin.webweaver.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id AAA07999; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:48:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <354E7762.DE1F3279@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:48:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: Don Wilde Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates - promoted in syadmin magazine! Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA15496 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-May-98 Don Wilde wisely wrote: >> "Send me information on a conmmercial FreeBSD vendor with a > $1M annual >> runrate and I'll use it." >> >> Hmmm. > > Walnut Creek? NCI? > > Brett, real sysadmins know about FreeBSD. Look at Andreas' links, there > are a number of articles out there that mention FreeBSD right alongside > Solaris and AIX as viable platforms for _enterprise_ software. > This month FreeBSD was mentioned/promoted quite well in sysadmin magazine. www .samag.com. Nicole > I think we should concentrate more on our software and ease-of-CLI-use > and our demo tools. Don't panic, just write code. You've got to remember > the mentality of the newsgroup surfer. He's a lot different than > InfoWorld's print readership. Most of those who're responding to your > posts are teenage surfers with nothing better to do. Even Joe Dad or Joe > CEO -- who're serious contenders for our business -- won't go there. How > many _real_software_writers_ like John Dyson or Amancio Hasty post > responses to your posts??? There are some threads on these lists that > are getting just as religious. Nobody wins, because we all waste > bandwidth reading it and nobody is learning or writing code here. I > don't like losing, so end of my input. I've got too much to learn. :)))) > > --> Don > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ ------------------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 00:58:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA17258 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:58:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.webweaver.net (xwin.webweaver.net [208.138.29.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17219; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:58:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.webweaver.net) Received: (from nicole@localhost) by xwin.webweaver.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id AAA08036; Tue, 5 May 1998 00:59:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199805050540.WAA06755@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:59:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Eivind Eklund , Brett Glass Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA17224 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 05-May-98 Amancio Hasty wisely wrote: > > Three out of the top of my head: > Walnut Creek, Yahoo, Whistle... > > Also, I happen to have worked for a company which have sold multi million > dollar systems which use FreeBSD. > > Cheers, > Amancio If I manage to get my way at work, most all of our systems will be FreeBSD. The new venrure will start will about 10 Servers being supported by 2 netapps to grow to support 100-200K users. On top of the already 10 servers we have now. The Commerce stuff will most likely go to the Sun Slowaris stuff however :< BTW: Sysadmin wanted: Must be FreeBSD freindly, Willing to work hard and cheap for fast growing start up. Lots of oportunity to learrn and play with cool toys. Prima Dona's need not apply. Experience is good, however willingness to learn and contibute to a group is even better! Send email to nicole@mediacity.com nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ ------------------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 01:35:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25331 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:35:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news.IAEhv.nl (root@news.IAEhv.nl [194.151.64.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA25198 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:35:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc@bowtie.nl) Received: from LOCAL (uucp@localhost) by news.IAEhv.nl (8.6.13/1.63) with IAEhv.nl; pid 19833 on Tue, 5 May 1998 08:34:06 GMT; id IAA19833 efrom: marc@bowtie.nl; eto: UNKNOWN Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23135; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:34:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from marc@bowtie.nl) Message-Id: <199805050834.KAA23135@nietzsche.intra.bowtie.nl> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, blender@neogeo.nl Subject: Re: 3D "blender" package from NeoGeo now released. In-reply-to: jkb's message of Mon, 04 May 1998 16:59:41 -0700. Reply-to: marc@bowtie.nl Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:34:58 +0200 From: Marc van Kempen Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Hello Marc, > > It might seem that FreeBSD group makes less noise then Linux. And > it is true to some extent because mostly FreeBSD users are more technical > then Linux users and tend to try and solve problems on their own. I agree > with you that we need more participation and simply noise to stand out in > the computer world. Look, everyone complains about Windows and see how > popular that is. Ok, I am going to walk down the hallway and scream > something about FreeBSD now. Yeah, that's it. *grin* > I know all this, I have been using FreeBSD since 386BSD 0.1, but now I'm standing at the other (vendor) side, and I can tell you that it really makes a difference to hear a lot of noise. I have received a lot of email since my "complaint" yesterday, please keep it up. And also take a look at the newsserver, and browse the messages. They contain a lot of useful information about using the Blender. http://goethe.bowtie.nl/cgi-bin/web-ssql/news-blender/index.ws Marc. ---------------------------------------------------- Marc van Kempen BowTie Technology Email: marc@bowtie.nl WWW & Databases tel. +31 40 2 43 20 65 fax. +31 40 2 44 21 86 http://www.bowtie.nl ---------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 01:42:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA27036 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:42:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sv04.kmjeuro.com (SV04.kmjeuro.com [195.26.216.165] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA26975 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:42:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from webadmin@kmjeuro.com) Received: from wsjk95.kmjeuro.com (wsjk95.kmjeuro.com [192.168.0.10]) by sv04.kmjeuro.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA05954 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:39:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from webadmin@kmjeuro.com) From: "webadmin" To: Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:41:50 +0200 Message-ID: <01bd7801$a59d6ce0$0a00a8c0@wsjk95.kmjeuro.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG there should be a list of available software under FreeBSD, But don´t think to technical. List as much as possible of the standard stuff for the "normal user". We are also commercial and we changed to FreeBSD from NT. See the "commercial guys" will change to anything what will work fine for them in relation to the costs. Offer remote support (i am sure there are a lot of guys out there willing to do that job for $$$). > > The Commerce stuff will most likely go to the Sun Slowaris stuff however :< I think you always thing in to big dimensions. karl m. joch http://www.kmjeuro.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 01:59:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00200 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:59:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mooseriver.com (dynamic43.pm03.sf3d.best.com [209.24.234.171]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA29986 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:58:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id BAA14080; Tue, 5 May 1998 01:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19980505015839.50866@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 01:58:39 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Nicole Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.79 In-Reply-To: ; from Nicole on Tue, May 05, 1998 at 12:37:21AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 05, 1998 at 12:37:21AM -0700, Nicole wrote: > > On 04-May-98 Open Systems Networking wisely wrote: > > Seriously though, I think that part of the problem with the "free" is bad > > mentality when talking about FreeBSD's name is that people don't realize > > just how used FreeBSD is in coporate america. No it isn't selling like [ Right, That's enough ] > > Right! > That is why I feel we really need a web page on the FreeBSD site that > highlites the companies more. Then there is a place for people to see > someone from BigXCo saying " we use FreeBSD" That is something can can be > looked at, counted and paraded. > Gotta agree here. I have been talking to a few startups lately and 3 times the following has happened.... "... HP and Solaris cost too much, SCO sucks too hard, and NT has to be rebooted every week. How would solve this problem." "Have you looked into FreeBSD. Rant, Rant, Rant..." Eyes glaze over "...it's used by Best Internet, Yahoo, Media City..." Comes to life. "Yahoo uses FreeBSD!?!?? Do you know what version, how about the hardware they are running on. Can you build us a box just like yahoo's ? What kind of network cards do they use. What color are their network cables?...." We need to emphasize the success we have had with large companys. From my observation, the most common business model is the Lemming model otherwise know as, "Me, Too!" (TM). A large number of business are content to follow the hairy butt in front of them no matter where its going. Their thought is "He is ahead of me, he must be doing something right. 50,000 lemmings^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hbusiness can't be wrong. What cliff?" I think this explains the sudden rise in the popularity of Red Hat Linux. One successful IPO using FreeBSD helps us gain more market share that 10 ISPs or 100 University research projects. The technical merits of FreeBSD vs. Linux means little to these people. If we can produce an uptime at least 10 times grater that the average NT box and be able to point to a number of successful IPOs using FreeBSD then we have made a convert and a sale. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.6 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 03:23:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA11229 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:23:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from saten.dyn.ml.org (165.ppp7.gulftel.com [208.222.59.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA11214 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 03:23:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (advocacy@localhost) by saten.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id FAA00843; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:21:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 05:21:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Phillip Salzman To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: Marc van Kempen , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: 3D "blender" package from NeoGeo now released. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > Hello Marc, > > It might seem that FreeBSD group makes less noise then Linux. And > it is true to some extent because mostly FreeBSD users are more technical > then Linux users and tend to try and solve problems on their own. I agree > with you that we need more participation and simply noise to stand out in > the computer world. Look, everyone complains about Windows and see how > popular that is. Ok, I am going to walk down the hallway and scream > something about FreeBSD now. Yeah, that's it. *grin* > Noise, attention, media. Its coming, its what we need. The other factor we are going to need is users participating in full contact. Recently the article on C|Net was very good, it detailed several things about the OS (although, I personally did not like the name of the figure they chose to 'test' FreeBSD). That is what we need, we need the people screaming in halls, court houses, supermarkets, computer stores, Linux conventions, partys, really really cool partys, and even in outer space. The aliens will love this OS. Do you get what i'm saying? Its coming... just remember to participate. Phillip Salzman .sig files suck eclipse@gulf.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 05:06:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26736 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:06:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sun-test.hightek.com ([194.74.141.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA26730; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:06:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm2.hightek.com) Received: from klemm2.hightek.com ([195.90.203.76]) by sun-test.hightek.com (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with ESMTP id AAA15790; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:06:08 +0200 Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm2.hightek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23890; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:06:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980505140606.09773@hightek.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:06:06 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: "Jan B. Koum " , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up. References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:20PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:20PM -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review. > In their April issue we find the following: URL ? I doesn't find it ... :-/ -- B&K Gruppe - Wuppertal phone +49 202 7399 - 170 fax +49 202 7399 - 100 http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 05:17:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29379 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:17:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA29374 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 05:17:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08212; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:04:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <354F0071.957895CA@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:05:05 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A GUI greyscale interface by default / sysinstall II References: <22910.894118096@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > The ideal "UI layer", of course, would treat the back-end "scribble on > the screen" bits abstractly enough that you could use the same "stick > me up a form that looks like this" code for both X and TTY COAS (www.coas.org) does this for command line, curses, X, and Java, in a modular design so that configuration tools for other programs can be plugged in. It's also designed to be backwards compatible (i.e. changing files directly won't cause problems with later edits in coas), also it has options to show what changes are being made, source code available for download (caldera made it available for the rest of linux world, I haven't looked at the code yet but surely a port will be easier than coding from scratch, and anything that makes moving from Linux to FreeBSD easier can't hurt either :-) Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 07:40:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25623 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 07:40:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com (rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com [157.230.160.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA25615 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 07:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhicks@rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com) Received: from rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com by rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA20030; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:34:55 -0400 Message-ID: <354F2382.B1ED66DD@rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:34:42 -0400 From: Jerry Hicks Organization: Glenayre Electronics, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Open Systems Networking wrote: > Seriously though, I think that part of the problem > with the "free" is bad mentality when talking about > FreeBSD's name is that people don't realize just how > used FreeBSD is in coporate america. In this corner of corporate America, Glenayre - Atlanta GA, we just finished development of a large scale telephony switching system. FreeBSD was used as the host development environment. Quite simply, FreeBSD offers the most full featured and stable cross development host we've ever had the priviledge of working with. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jhicks@glenatl.glenayre.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 07:47:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26580 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 07:47:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26572 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 07:47:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA21640; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:47:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id JAA22440; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:47:01 -0500 Message-ID: <19980505094701.13141@right.PCS> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 09:47:01 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Nicole Cc: Don Wilde , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates - promoted in syadmin magazine! References: <354E7762.DE1F3279@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: ; from Nicole on May 05, 1998 at 12:48:21AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On May 05, 1998 at 12:48:21AM -0700, Nicole wrote: > This month FreeBSD was mentioned/promoted quite well in sysadmin > magazine. www.samag.com. [ plus other reference to an article by Mr. Protocol in SunWorld ] Is anyone collecting these news stories, and putting links to them from the FreeBSD web page? That would be a cheap way of advocating FreeBSD - "look at FBSD in the media!" We have a lot of positive press! -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 08:28:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03948 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:28:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03822 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:27:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA06629 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:27:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (jreynold@hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.7.6/8.7.3paulmail) with ESMTP id IAA84350 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:27:46 -0700 Received: by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.8.6/) id LAA23570; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:27:26 -0400 (EDT) From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:27:24 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ports/packages--misunderstood X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under Emacs 19.34.1 Message-ID: <13647.11810.943744.215716@hip186.ch.intel.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > [ Jordan K. Hubbard said: ] > > Blech. I don't participate in dicussions there because their > braindead (sorry, braindead) discussion threader makes it too darn > difficult to figure out where the discussion is at any given point and > which of the many independent threads one should reply to. It's just > not worth the hassle when I can just stick to NEWS (which has its own > problems, yes, but at least they're tractable ones for me). Oh, indeed I was not saying participate in discussions. I never do either. slashdot.org is filled with too much FUD (I check the pages just to see "other" developments and announcements, like The Gimp, etc.). > [ snip ] > We finished our own 1st generation packaging technology several years > back and are now simply struggling with having become stuck on our way > to implementing the 2nd. :( forgive my ignorance, but what are the problems with the current ports/packages system? I'm truly curious because as an end-user, I think the system works rather nicely. > In any case, it's forward rather than lateral movement that we need > right now and switching to someone else's 1st generation technology > would be an example of lateral (if not backward) movement. Absolutely. I was -NOT- advocating having FreeBSD move to anything that the linux community has come up with. I was merely posting a reference to something where some linux folks were arguing about whose distribution method was best, blah blah blah. That is one thing I think is cool about FreeBSD--EVERYTHING is "synced" to a release. You know that port XYZ is going to work when you type "make". No need to argue what format is best. That's the point I was trying to make reference too (for people that might be reading this list wondering the age-old question "Linux vs. FreeBSD"). Cheers, -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds C-TEAM CLE - Central Design Services | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 08:35:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA06134 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:35:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail3.mailsorter.net (mail3.mailsorter.net [207.67.128.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA06108 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:35:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kriston@ibm.net) Received: from slip.dc.us.ibm.net ([204.148.100.170]) by mail3.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA2396 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 08:34:53 -0700 Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:34:48 -0400 Message-ID: <2738-Tue05May1998113448-0400-kriston@ibm.net> From: kriston@ibm.net (Kriston J. Rehberg) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD and OpenBSD -- differences? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I've cut my teeth on all the free Unixes except OpenBSD. After using FreeBSD, I'm reluctant to move on since I've found that it's so much better than NetBSD and the Linuxes. Among those of you who have used OpenBSD, what qualities does it possess, besides cross-platform ports and self-proclaimed security hardening, that would make it any more or less viable than FreeBSD? I've read all the info about all of them, but am reluctant to try OpenBSD. Thanks, Kris PS...To try to avoid a flagrant idealism flame-war, I'm asking that you reply only if you've actually used OpenBSD. -- Kriston J. Rehberg AOL: Kriston http://kriston.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 09:31:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA14793 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:31:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA14738 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 09:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0yWkXT-0001Ue-00; Tue, 5 May 1998 17:25:55 +0100 Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:25:55 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: Stuart Henderson cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A GUI greyscale interface by default / sysinstall II In-Reply-To: <354F0071.957895CA@internationalschool.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > COAS (www.coas.org) does this for command line, curses, X, and Java, in > a modular design so that configuration tools for other programs can be > plugged in. It's also designed to be backwards compatible (i.e. changing > files directly won't cause problems with later edits in coas), also it > has options to show what changes are being made, source code available ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What would that look like? Incidentally, would it be useful for the config program to do something like rcs or CVS on the major config files automatically to allow easy undos and (perhaps) multiple configurations? (Either by default or as an option.) Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 10:44:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02345 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:44:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02269 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:44:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18990; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:41:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk cc: Stuart Henderson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A GUI greyscale interface by default / sysinstall II In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 17:25:55 BST." Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 10:41:45 -0700 Message-ID: <18987.894390105@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Incidentally, would it be useful for the config program to do something > like rcs or CVS on the major config files automatically to allow easy > undos and (perhaps) multiple configurations? (Either by default or as an > option.) Probably not - most folks wouldn't know what to do with the information anyway. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 10:59:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04627 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:59:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04580; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:59:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id KAA29678; Tue, 5 May 1998 10:59:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:59:13 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Andreas Klemm cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up. In-Reply-To: <19980505140606.09773@hightek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I typed the mail by hand -- no copy and paste from the web. The article might not be on the web yet -- don't know. Sorry :) -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. On Tue, 5 May 1998, Andreas Klemm wrote: >On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:20PM -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: >> >> Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review. >> In their April issue we find the following: > >URL ? I doesn't find it ... :-/ > >-- >B&K Gruppe - Wuppertal >phone +49 202 7399 - 170 >fax +49 202 7399 - 100 http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas/ > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 11:02:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05147 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:02:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05054; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:01:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id LAA00515; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:01:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:01:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Greg Lehey cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up. In-Reply-To: <19980505171001.V4777@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wouldn't know. Who is our Mike O'Brien btw -- I am bad with names? -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. On Tue, 5 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 20:33:20 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: >> >> Ok, not quite -- but we got a good review. >> In their April issue we find the following: >> "FreeBSD, for example, is most robust at supporting high-end servers on >> Pentium hardware, as its TCP/IP stack is derivative of the extremely >> mature stack developed under DARPA's aegis at Berkeley, and it has been >> extensively optimized for Pentium hardware. Mr. Protocol prefers it for >> his own desktop network system, and it makes a good liniment and furniture >> polish as well". >> This is from "Ask Mr. Protocol" section written by Michael O'Brien >> -- it talked about free source and etc. Comments go to amp@cpg.com > >Hmm, that wouldn't be our Mike O'Brien now, would it? > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 11:10:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06773 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:10:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06747; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:10:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03097; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:08:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id LAA20197; Tue, 5 May 1998 11:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805051808.LAA20197@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-Reply-To: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> from David Greenman at "May 4, 98 07:16:02 pm" To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 11:08:06 -0700 (PDT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to David Greenman: > >I was under the impression that dg had recently published hard numbers > >showing this trend. It'd certainly help to quote them there. > > No, I've never quoted hard numbers. I think doing so, as a contractor for > WC CDROM, would be unethical and possibly illegal. I think it would be best > to drop this type of 'attack' against the Stallmanites as it will only serve > to further polarize people against us and I definately DON'T want that to > happen. We should be extending welcoming hands to the Linux people and > working on converting them to FreeBSD, not alienating them with this sort of > rhetoric. > Finally a breath of fresh air. We in the BSD ``camp'' would do better to co-operate that compete. Any victory would be Pyrrhic at best. One reason we humans have survived these score millennia is because cooperation precedes competition. Individual effort sometimes yield brilliant results; cooperative, maximum. Both operating systems would gain if features from each were shared. Both the *BSD and *Linux OS's agree with the free software paradigm; it's a matter of degree. gary > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 12:21:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18754 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:21:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18718 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:21:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0yWnGh-00016y-00; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:20:47 +0100 Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:20:47 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Stuart Henderson , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A GUI greyscale interface by default / sysinstall II In-Reply-To: <18987.894390105@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! > > Incidentally, would it be useful for the config program to do something > > like rcs or CVS on the major config files automatically to allow easy > > undos and (perhaps) multiple configurations? (Either by default or as an > > option.) > > Probably not - most folks wouldn't know what to do with the information > anyway. I'm assuming that this is entirely integrated into the config program, so that rcs would be completely transparent. The config program could have an option (e.g. either a single option from the main menu, or more likely an option from each config screen, like kernel, devices, printers, etc.) to look at and possibly retrieve previous setups. This might be useful for retrieving previous configurations if a mistake has been made. (For example, if the config program supports kernel config then the user can go back to the previous kernel(s) if something is broken.) Multiple configurations (like different hardware profiles in MS Windows) could be selected. Thus, for instance, when at university I have an ethernet connection, but I don't at home; I can't be bothered to change all the network settings each time I go home and come back, so when I'm at home I have to wait for attempted network connections to time out. If multiple configs were available then I could just switch each time. I don't know if rcs has any facility to remove data older than a certain age, but this could be added to stop the *,v files growing too large. It would also be handy as the *,v would be a sort of backup for each config file in case of corruption etc. Of course, the great disadvantage then would be that any manual changes wouldn't be recorded in the *,v file unless the user used rcs to make the change---but in this case the config program could (=must) save the change as a new revision. Comments in rcs need not be entered by the user (except for describing different configs), but the config program could put in something intelligent like "Changes made by setup program" or "Changes made by user" if the config file had changed since the last time the config program changed the file (i.e. the user had changed it manually). The config program could have an option _to_ use the rcs system or not to---this might be useful for backwards-compatability, for example. There could also be an option so that the rcs comments could be added automatically as above or by hand if the user wanted. If the config program has (as I suggested before) perhaps three different user-selectable levels, "Newbie", "Intermediate" and "Advanced", the rcs bit might only be available for the "Advanced" setting. By the way, what do people think of having about three different levels like this? (Sort of like the three different levels of installation in /stand/sysinstall.) I think it would be nice as it would allow an easy-to-use basic setup for newbies, a more comprehensive setup for people who need an extra bit of control, and an advanced setting which has lots of unusual and powerful features? I don't know how much programming this would take (it depends on the way the config program is written) but it might be worth it. In any case, once the rcs thing is written once it presumably doesn't take much more effort to use it for each config file (given that rcs itself can be used and that the config files have to be loaded and saved anyway). And the three settings might be OK to write depending on the toolkit used. This does mean, however, that the sysinstall program [which hopefully will be renamed something like setup!] might have to have it's _own_ config file! Please let me know whether you think the ideas above are helpful or complete rubbish! Thanks... Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 12:27:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19908 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:27:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19852; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:27:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24410; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:25:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805051925.NAA24410@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:25:15 -0600 To: Gary Kline , dg@root.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199805051808.LAA20197@athena.tera.com> References: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:08 AM 5/5/98 -0700, Gary Kline wrote: > One reason we humans have survived these score millennia > is because cooperation precedes competition. Individual > effort sometimes yield brilliant results; cooperative, > maximum. Both operating systems would gain if features > from each were shared. > > Both the *BSD and *Linux OS's agree with the free software > paradigm; it's a matter of degree. One would certainly hope so! But tune in to that InfoWorld forum to see what's actually going on. Anyone who critiques the GPL is *immediately* branded a "Linux basher," a "zealot," or worse. Ditto anyone who points out areas in which FreeBSD has advantages over Linux. The rhetoric is *nasty*, guys. One can interpret all of this in different ways, but my take is that it's because Richard Stallman's vision -- which seeks to preclude the development of commercial software wherever possible -- relies on compelling authors to use the GPL. The presence of any alternative to the GPL -- and, especially, publicizing it -- throws a monkey wrench into the works! Hence the fury of those who bash the BSDs and tout the GPL as essential to the collaborative development of software. What can folks do? The key things to say are as follows: 1. The Berkeley-style license is an alternative to the GPL, and it has been shown to be at least equally effective in promoting the development of free software. 2. In addition, the Berkeley-style license promotes the development of commercial software, which is advantageous to all developers and to consumers. 3. FreeBSD, which is published under a Berkeley-style license, is every bit as good as Linux and is superior in many respects. All of these points are PROVABLY correct. Nonetheless, one will often be flamed for making them. I think the correct thing to do is to make them anyway, then walk away from the flames. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 12:49:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23393 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:49:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23380; Tue, 5 May 1998 12:49:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA08741; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:49:36 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA01745; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:49:28 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980505214927.34624@follo.net> Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:49:27 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Brett Glass , Gary Kline , dg@root.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates References: <199805050216.TAA17681@implode.root.com> <199805051808.LAA20197@athena.tera.com> <199805051925.NAA24410@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199805051925.NAA24410@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, May 05, 1998 at 01:25:15PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, May 05, 1998 at 01:25:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:08 AM 5/5/98 -0700, Gary Kline wrote: > > > One reason we humans have survived these score millennia > > is because cooperation precedes competition. Individual > > effort sometimes yield brilliant results; cooperative, > > maximum. Both operating systems would gain if features > > from each were shared. > > > > Both the *BSD and *Linux OS's agree with the free software > > paradigm; it's a matter of degree. > > One would certainly hope so! But tune in to that InfoWorld forum > to see what's actually going on. Anyone who critiques the GPL > is *immediately* branded a "Linux basher," a "zealot," or worse. > Ditto anyone who points out areas in which FreeBSD has advantages > over Linux. The rhetoric is *nasty*, guys. Sorry - I don't agree. In the forums, you _do_ tend to come over as a zealot and Linux basher. (And claiming that I get this impression because I'm a closet Linuxial won't get you anywhere ;-) You'd come over much better if you qualified your statement to not only be technically correct, but also being correct in context (not holding back information etc). Be careful to give the correct impression, admit to weaknesses (or at least those weaknesses you can afford to admit to), and you can give an extremely honest impression - which is much more effective. The combination of technical excellence and an impression of honesty can easily convert lurkers (which probably should be the real target in the discussion). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 13:22:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28411 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:22:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28366; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:22:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03311; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:21:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805052021.NAA03311@rah.star-gate.com> To: Gary Kline cc: dg@root.com, brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 11:08:06 PDT." <199805051808.LAA20197@athena.tera.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <3308.894399712.1@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 13:21:52 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Curious, why can't you post such nice message to the Infoworld forum?? Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 13:22:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28479 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:22:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28393; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:22:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA14471; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:22:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <354F74EF.8D087A45@plutotech.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:22:07 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jan B. Koum" CC: Greg Lehey , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SunExpert give FreeBSD two thumbs up. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Wouldn't know. Who is our Mike O'Brien btw -- I am bad with names? That'd be Mr Protocol---or, more accurately, the author of the Mr Protocol column. Check the byline. It's nice to have such a columnist as a FreeBSD user: the occasional plugs are definitely worthwhile. --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 13:56:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06306 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:56:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06201; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:56:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06832; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:55:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id NAA21094; Tue, 5 May 1998 13:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805052055.NAA21094@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-Reply-To: <199805052021.NAA03311@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "May 5, 98 01:21:52 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 13:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Cc: kline@tera.tera.com, dg@root.com, brett@lariat.org, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Amancio Hasty: > Curious, why can't you post such nice message to the Infoworld forum?? > What? and get flamed!!? What's their URL? Brett? David? Anybody? gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 14:02:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07866 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:02:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07707; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:01:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25689; Tue, 5 May 1998 15:01:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805052101.PAA25689@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1.329 (Beta) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 15:01:17 -0600 To: Gary Kline , hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: kline@tera.tera.com, dg@root.com, eivind@yes.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com In-Reply-To: <199805052055.NAA21094@athena.tera.com> References: <199805052021.NAA03311@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The URL of the Forum is http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767 You can read it without registering, but to post you need to fill out a short registration form. Very little on the form is mandatory. --Brett At 01:55 PM 5/5/98 -0700, Gary Kline wrote: >According to Amancio Hasty: >> Curious, why can't you post such nice message to the Infoworld forum?? >> > > What? and get flamed!!? > > What's their URL? Brett? David? Anybody? > > gary > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 14:09:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10449 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:09:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gershwin.tera.com (gershwin.tera.com [207.224.230.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10372; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:09:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kline@tera.tera.com) Received: from athena.tera.com (athena.tera.com [207.224.230.127]) by gershwin.tera.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA07063; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:08:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Gary Kline Received: (from kline@localhost) by athena.tera.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id OAA21160; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805052108.OAA21160@athena.tera.com> Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-Reply-To: <19980505214927.34624@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "May 5, 98 09:49:27 pm" To: eivind@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:08:36 -0700 (PDT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, kline@tera.tera.com, dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL23 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG According to Eivind Eklund: > On Tue, May 05, 1998 at 01:25:15PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 11:08 AM 5/5/98 -0700, Gary Kline wrote: > > > > > One reason we humans have survived these score millennia > > > is because cooperation precedes competition. Individual > > > effort sometimes yield brilliant results; cooperative, > > > maximum. Both operating systems would gain if features > > > from each were shared. > > > > > > Both the *BSD and *Linux OS's agree with the free software > > > paradigm; it's a matter of degree. > > > > One would certainly hope so! But tune in to that InfoWorld forum > > to see what's actually going on. Anyone who critiques the GPL > > is *immediately* branded a "Linux basher," a "zealot," or worse. > > Ditto anyone who points out areas in which FreeBSD has advantages > > over Linux. The rhetoric is *nasty*, guys. Oh, no doubt. We've had some nasty little spats ourselves. If there _is_ a way of combatting such bias ((short of getting an Uzi and moving these people down in hot blood)) it is to speak up with an informed reason. Sort of ``the BIG LIE'' in reverse. If, after hearing our side of things, the majority isn't swayed, well, too bad.... > > Sorry - I don't agree. In the forums, you _do_ tend to come over as a > zealot and Linux basher. (And claiming that I get this impression > because I'm a closet Linuxial won't get you anywhere ;-) > I'm sure that Brett can fight his own battles; but from knowing him as a fellow porter, he's fair and mellow. He's got something most lack: enthusiasm! gary To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 14:32:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16470 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:32:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA16452 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:32:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 10191 invoked by uid 24); 5 May 1998 21:32:45 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980505143742.007b4eb0@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 14:37:42 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: streaming media serving w/FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Has anyone used FreeBSD for *extensive* RealMedia serving, particularly video? I.e., have you done load tests to determine exactly how many streams a FreeBSD server with a given CPU/mboard/memory/disk/network IO configuration can handle. I may have an application which will need 1000's of simultaneous streams, and I'd like to host it on the platform I feel gives the greatest serving power per dollar, which currently seems to be FreeBSD. Also looking for experience on using reflectors for live content... Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- pure chewing satisfaction brian@apache.org brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 14:45:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19054 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:45:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19016; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:45:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: (from hasty@localhost) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03772; Tue, 5 May 1998 14:45:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:45:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Amancio Hasty Message-Id: <199805052145.OAA03772@rah.star-gate.com> To: brett@lariat.org, dg@root.com, eivind@yes.no, kline@tera.tera.com Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980505214927.34624@follo.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi Eivind, It is a true exercise in patience in dealing with the "wild crazed linux zealots". My experience have shown me that once you brand "them" as zealots then things then to precipitate to a sanity level. We are dealing with a social/cultural phenomena with no scientific basis . Again, lets take this nice chat to the Infoworld forum . Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 17:45:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18725 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 17:45:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tok.qiv.com (yI61vXXo+gJL6IpYB28XiT7SNXDXmU0c@tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18678 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 17:45:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id TAA16903; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:44:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA01361; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:34:03 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:34:02 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and OpenBSD -- differences? In-Reply-To: <2738-Tue05May1998113448-0400-kriston@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 5 May 1998, Kriston J. Rehberg wrote: >I've cut my teeth on all the free Unixes except OpenBSD. After using >FreeBSD, I'm reluctant to move on since I've found that it's so much >better than NetBSD and the Linuxes. Among those of you who have used >OpenBSD, what qualities does it possess, besides cross-platform ports >and self-proclaimed security hardening, that would make it any more or >less viable than FreeBSD? I've read all the info about all of them, >but am reluctant to try OpenBSD. OpenBSD is quite nice. It demands much more of the casual admin than FreeBSD and the ports are just beginning to develop. The security appears to be there and is probably easier to bring up a hardened system with OpenBSD that FreeBSD -- but to be fair, Canada doesn't have (yet) the anal idiocy of ITAR. It appears to be almost as efficient as FreeBSD on the intel platform and, I think, as reliable -- at least in the environments in which I've used it. I haven't used it on other platforms -- so I can't speak to that. (I like it as well or better than SunOS -- if that helps.) It would be my first choice on a platform other than Intel -- and probably my first choice on intel for firewalls which had to do IPSec or kerberos KDCs. Not because FreeBSD can't do it well -- but because OpenBSD makes it much easier. There appears to be a lot of cooperation between FreeBSD and OpenBSD which benefits us all. I hope that continues and doesn't degenerate into the Linux vs. FreeBSD fiasco. The OpenBSD people have done a good job despite the smoke and steam. We should encourage and cooperate. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 18:38:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28033 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:38:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (root@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA27053; Tue, 5 May 1998 18:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id RAA07349; Tue, 5 May 1998 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 17:56:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Eivind Eklund cc: Greg Lehey , Nicole , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <19980504010604.28183@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just out of curiosity.. do we have anyone from *.microsoft.com getting our source or OS? -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. On Mon, 4 May 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: >On Mon, May 04, 1998 at 08:33:10AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 0:48:28 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >> > They don't have to explictly state that it is FreeBSD, but there are a >> > LOT of credits they _do_ have to state. Read through the source >> > sometime. >> > >> > One example: They have to credit the University of California at >> > Berkeley, even in their advertisements. This example is in >> > /usr/src/COPYRIGHT. >> >> Right. When did you last see this mentioned *anywhere* in System V.4? >> You can bet your bottom dollar that Microsoft wouldn't be any better. > >Then we're dealing with license violation. I don't think GPLing >something will help you if you assume the license will be violated. > >Of course, the GPL is viral, and as a such might be more scary. A >neat hack might be to create a BSD-style license which goes viral if >violated :-) > >Eivind. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 19:08:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06179 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:08:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06165 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:08:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21719; Tue, 5 May 1998 19:08:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Amancio Hasty cc: brett@lariat.org, dg@root.com, eivind@yes.no, kline@tera.tera.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 14:45:01 PDT." <199805052145.OAA03772@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:08:04 -0700 Message-ID: <21715.894420484@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hmmm. First off, let's stop posting this thread to both -chat and -advocacy. Most of us only need to see these messages ONCE. :-) Second, I notice you're very strongly in support of people talking in the Infoworld forum but I don't see anything at all from Amancio Hasty in there - whatever happened to leading by EXAMPLE? :-) - Jordan > Hi Eivind, > It is a true exercise in patience in dealing with the > "wild crazed linux zealots". My experience have shown > me that once you brand "them" as zealots then things > then to precipitate to a sanity level. We are dealing > with a social/cultural phenomena with no scientific > basis . Again, lets take this nice chat to the Infoworld > forum . > > Cheers, > Amancio > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 20:22:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17591 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:22:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17566 for ; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:22:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05002; Tue, 5 May 1998 20:22:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805060322.UAA05002@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: brett@lariat.org, dg@root.com, eivind@yes.no, kline@tera.tera.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 19:08:04 PDT." <21715.894420484@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:22:10 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I have posted on the Infoworld forum as well as Dyson when he had the flu -- I heard that the linux crowd wishes Dyson good health 8) A slight point of clarification I am not the leader when it comes to public relations please folks look more towards Brett Glass . It is very , very, nice to have a good journalist on our side;additionally, he has the contacts and resources to further push the issues however he does need FreeBSD support. What I really envision is pushing Brett all the way to a national spotlight be in some technical forum, senate hearing or tv show . That said , I think I will stop by in the Infoworld forum tonite 8) Regards, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 21:43:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03381 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:43:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03371; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05416; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:40:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805060440.VAA05416@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: Eivind Eklund , Greg Lehey , Nicole , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 17:56:17 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 21:40:11 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Just out of curiosity.. do we have anyone from *.microsoft.com >getting our source or OS? I know that we have microsoft people on-board so what? Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 21:44:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03554 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:44:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03549; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:44:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id VAA15919; Tue, 5 May 1998 21:44:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:44:20 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Amancio Hasty cc: Eivind Eklund , Greg Lehey , Nicole , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: <199805060440.VAA05416@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 5 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> Just out of curiosity.. do we have anyone from *.microsoft.com ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>getting our source or OS? > >I know that we have microsoft people on-board so what? > > Amancio > > > Which board? -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 5 22:37:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10678 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:37:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (root@huron.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10639; Tue, 5 May 1998 22:36:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA13342; Wed, 6 May 1998 01:26:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 01:26:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= cc: David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset= Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id WAA10646 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 4 May 1998, Dag-Erling Coidan [iso-8859-1] Smørgrav wrote: > David Kelly writes: > > I've been thinking that considering Netscape's release of their browser > > source code that maybe it would be a good idea for IBM to do the same > > with OS/2. IBM can't be collecting very much money selling OS/2. Well, > > at least not much in IBM scale. > > You might be surprised. Yup, most people are. Many people who predict the downfall of unix cannot even list the number one vendor because it doesn't register on the technical horizon for most of us. Funny thing is that its competition does. Last I heard the network OS vendors were ranked as follows: 1. MS WinNT server 2. Novell Netware 3. SCO OpernServer 4. IBM OS/2 I forget whether the metric was dollars of sale or number of copies. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 00:28:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA29608 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:28:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xwin.webweaver.net (xwin.webweaver.net [208.138.29.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29583 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:28:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole@xwin.webweaver.net) Received: (from nicole@localhost) by xwin.webweaver.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) id AAA13005 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 6 May 1998 00:30:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nicole) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:30:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Nicole To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Publicity! Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA29602 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey... I sent this before, but it didn't seem that anyone noticed.. so here again This month FreeBSD was mentioned/promoted quite well in sysadmin magazine. www .samag.com. Another link from the FreeBSD page? Nicole nicole@webweaver.net - http://www.webweaver.net/ webmistress@dangermouse.org - http://www.dangermouse.org/ ------------------------------------------------- -- Powered by Coka Cola and FreeBSD -- -- Stong enough for a man - But made for a Woman -- -- Microsoft: What bug would you like today? -- -- I tried an internal modem once, but it hurt when I walked -- --------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 07:38:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08582 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 07:38:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smgmail.smgmail.com ([204.170.177.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA08384 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 07:37:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from AdamT@smginc.com) Received: from smginc.com (204.170.177.4 [204.170.177.4]) by smgmail.smgmail.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.1960.3) id KC84YQPH; Wed, 6 May 1998 10:37:41 -0400 Received: by smginc.com with Microsoft Mail id <35509697@smginc.com>; Wed, 06 May 98 09:57:59 PDT From: Adam Turoff To: "'freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: RE: linux world contemplate packages ... Date: Wed, 06 May 98 10:37:00 PDT Message-ID: <35509697@smginc.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I just saw this on slashdot.org: > > >> http://slashdot.org/articles/9804041623214.shtml > > [...] > In any case, I don't see anything in any of the discussion there that > hasn't been said before and in considerably more detail. Everyone > basically knows what the All Singing All Dancing package manager of > the future is supposed to do and they also know that RPMs, DEBs TGZs > and all the other current packaging formats are *first generation* > efforts which are deeply in need of moving on to the second generation. > > Even the staunchest adherent to any of the current package standards > will admit that there's a growing list of wish list items for their > pet standard, some of which are quite important (like signatures, > better "auditing" of changes, improved [or any] provisions for > updates, etc), that really need to go into the 2nd generation effort. > We finished our own 1st generation packaging technology several years > back and are now simply struggling with having become stuck on our way > to implementing the 2nd. :( With all due respect, waiving away all of the linux packaging efforts as 1st generation is a bit heavy-handed. The last I checked, RPM with all of its warts can do PGP signing. (Of course, that doesn't necessarily make it 2nd generation...) Yes, linux is bogus and linux packaging is bogus. Having something simple like FreeBSD ports (where you know your system ships with a working make, [g]cc, etc.) really solves problems like libc vs. glibc, 2.0.x vs 2.1.x, alpha vs sparc vs 386 vs Pentium vs MIPS vs PPC, etc. But waiving away all linux-centric projects outright is also bogus, because enough action like that would make anyone look like a Guy Kawasaki-esque evangelist puppet. > In any case, it's forward rather than lateral movement that we need > right now and switching to someone else's 1st generation technology > would be an example of lateral (if not backward) movement. Again, with all due respect, there are people out there (OK, at least me) interested in the "distribution problem" who can learn from the mistakes of the RPM/Debian/Slackware designers before mucking about in Ports. Apologies for not following the recent threads in -advocacy, but there's something to be learned from Linux, if only how not to make the same mistakes twice. -- Adam. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 09:01:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19848 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:01:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA19808 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:01:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08054; Wed, 6 May 1998 09:00:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805061600.JAA08054@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: brett@lariat.org, dg@root.com, eivind@yes.no, kline@tera.tera.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoWorld brawl esclates In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 May 1998 19:08:04 PDT." <21715.894420484@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:00:35 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Second, I notice you're very strongly in support of people talking >in the Infoworld forum but I don't see anything at all from Amancio Hi, Done! Sat down last nite and happily posted to the Infoworld forum . http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767 Happy War! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 12:27:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28859 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:27:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28790 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:26:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id MAA20798 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:26:48 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id MAA14629 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 12:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 12:25:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: The importance of InfoWorld Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simple question. Why is InfoWorld such a prevalent topic here on this list? There are manifold places that discussions take place on the net. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 20:08:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23376 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:08:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23366 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:08:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10996 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:08:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805070308.UAA10996@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Latest News from the "Front-lines" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:08:16 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Do we have any really big servers such as DejaNews or Web Servers with equivalent functionality as DejaNews? Tnks, Amancio ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Our site serves about 4 million pageviews per day from 9 CGI servers. Our CGIs are radically more complex than most people's. As far as static documents go, they can each put out about 50 pageviews per second (which would be much higher than 4 million per day). We have certainly taken it far. We operate the world's largest publicly accessible text database entirely on Linux servers. Our database is about 350 GB of fully indexed text. (find any word or combination of words with boolean operators in any document) Doing the calculations, each of their servers (dual-processor Pentiums I read somewhere) can serve approximately 50Gig per day over HTTP, assuming a 15K page size. This size was arrived at by sampling a few hits on their server. Again, HTTP is a different beast than FTP, being made up of many smaller requests for each page. FreeBSD runs the largest FTP site on the Internet; Linux runs the largest free text database on the Internet. I'd say that speaks quite highly of BOTH systems. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 20:31:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25919 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25883 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 20:31:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id XAA24267; Wed, 6 May 1998 23:26:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 23:30:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Amancio Hasty cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Latest News from the "Front-lines" In-Reply-To: <199805070308.UAA10996@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Do we have any really big servers such as DejaNews or Web Servers > with equivalent functionality as DejaNews? Hmm other than Yahoo, the only place I know of that has high volume web traffic is ebay the auction place. They get almost as many hits as yahoo on a single can like 8 million a day or something. www.ebay.com Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 6 21:25:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05923 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:25:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@huron.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05804 for ; Wed, 6 May 1998 21:24:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id AAA04518; Thu, 7 May 1998 00:24:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:24:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: InfoWorld Electric: Linux Zealots Trashing FreeBSD, Berkeley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 5 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Just out of curiosity.. do we have anyone from *.microsoft.com > getting our source or OS? > > -- Yan well, for quite a while there was a freebsd box in redmon MS HQ on the mbone "pictures of the world" channel. I don't know if it is still there. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 01:34:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08034 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:34:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA08020 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 01:34:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from <@rn.synx.com:root@synx.com>) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA00724; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:38:54 +0100 Received: from rn by s3.synx.com id aa29649; 7 May 98 10:24 BST Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:33:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Remy NONNENMACHER Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: Re: Latest News from the "Front-lines" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199805070308.UAA10996@rah.star-gate.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: <9805071024.aa29649@s3.synx.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 6 May, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Do we have any really big servers such as DejaNews or Web Servers > with equivalent functionality as DejaNews? > > Tnks, > Amancio > There is little guys in Norway, ftpsearch (http://ftpsearch.ntnu.no) who do a great job with FreeBSD. They have a very very fast file name search from a large database of public ftp servers. Have a look. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 07:34:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA21308 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:34:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from junior.apk.net (root@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA21213 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 07:33:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from localhost (stuart@localhost) by junior.apk.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA26602; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:52:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:52:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Stuart Krivis To: Jay Nelson cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and OpenBSD -- differences? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 5 May 1998, Jay Nelson wrote: > There appears to be a lot of cooperation between FreeBSD and OpenBSD > which benefits us all. I hope that continues and doesn't degenerate > into the Linux vs. FreeBSD fiasco. The OpenBSD people have done a good > job despite the smoke and steam. We should encourage and cooperate. The only drawback is thatI have not been able to find inexpensive OpenBSD CDs like are available for FreeBSD. -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 09:22:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11304 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:22:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA11225; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:22:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA00452; Thu, 7 May 1998 09:20:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805071620.JAA00452@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Julian Elischer cc: Mariusz Potocki , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Steve Shoecraft Subject: New Advocacy Mission: (Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD ) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 May 1998 02:27:01 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 09:20:53 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brief: I am sick and tire of listening to ISPs stating that they would love to have a supported version of Oracle's database. Target : Oracle and NCI Objective: Secure option to purchase Oracle 7 from either NCI or Oracle What we need is contacts, fax numbers, e-mail address so we can ask for Oracle 7. End - Of - Transmission To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 11:48:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA08197 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:48:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08038; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:47:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA01110; Thu, 7 May 1998 11:47:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpd001104; Thu May 7 18:46:58 1998 Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 11:46:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Julian Elischer To: Amancio Hasty cc: Mariusz Potocki , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, Steve Shoecraft Subject: Re: New Advocacy Mission: (Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD ) In-Reply-To: <199805071620.JAA00452@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG remember, they HAVE such a beast, they are just not selling it.... john, can you do 10 minutes of research and get the name of a sales person to call..? then we can put it in the archives to make sure all the calls go through the same place. On Thu, 7 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Brief: I am sick and tire of listening to ISPs stating that they would love > to have a supported version of Oracle's database. > > Target : Oracle and NCI > > Objective: Secure option to purchase Oracle 7 from either NCI or Oracle > > What we need is contacts, fax numbers, e-mail address so we can ask for > Oracle 7. > > End - Of - Transmission > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 14:42:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11193 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 14:42:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from crimson.protovision (root@p127-23.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.202.151]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10951 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 14:41:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stjerneby@usa.net) Received: from usa.net (bwulf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by crimson.protovision (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA00490; Thu, 7 May 1998 23:40:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from stjerneby@usa.net) Message-ID: <35522A4D.26CFCC60@usa.net> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 23:40:29 +0200 From: Sune Stjerneby Reply-To: stjerneby@usa.net Organization: Organised, me? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Krivis CC: Jay Nelson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and OpenBSD -- differences? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Stuart Krivis wrote: > > On Tue, 5 May 1998, Jay Nelson wrote: > > > There appears to be a lot of cooperation between FreeBSD and OpenBSD > > which benefits us all. I hope that continues and doesn't degenerate > > into the Linux vs. FreeBSD fiasco. The OpenBSD people have done a good > > job despite the smoke and steam. We should encourage and cooperate. > > The only drawback is thatI have not been able to find inexpensive OpenBSD > CDs like are available for FreeBSD. Hmm, I got my OpenBSD 2.2 two-disc set free of charge (no shipping charges either) from a German vendor - He stated that he couldn't make profit of them anyway. That's inexpensive for ya. But of course, the distribution is nowhere near as widespread as other 4.4BSD derivees or Linux, even. Otherwise, there's NetBSD on the two-disc BSDisc set from InfoMagic (with FreeBSD also). One can only hope that this set will someday include all three freely available 4.4BSD derivees. -- //bwulf - Sune Stjerneby -- "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur." -- "4.4BSD UNIX - A Real Operating System for Real Users." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 17:28:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08392 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:28:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@spain-14.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.228.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08289 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:27:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA22804 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:28:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 17:28:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.ci.infobeads.com/INSIDER/PAGES/TOPICS/INTERNET/ISP_HW_0505/Default.asp Hrm, and FreeBSD was nowhere to be found. Interesting. - alex "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 17:28:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08416 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08410 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:28:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09762; Thu, 7 May 1998 17:28:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: stjerneby@usa.net cc: Stuart Krivis , Jay Nelson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and OpenBSD -- differences? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 May 1998 23:40:29 +0200." <35522A4D.26CFCC60@usa.net> Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 17:28:04 -0700 Message-ID: <9759.894587284@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Otherwise, there's NetBSD on the two-disc BSDisc set from InfoMagic > (with FreeBSD also). One can only hope that this set will someday I think this has actually been discontinued - I haven't seen an update in ages. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 21:25:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14930 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:25:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14914 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:25:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id VAA06949; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:25:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 21:25:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Greg Lehey cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Books (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <19980507200748.J12200@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 2:27:01 -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: >> >> My best suggestion is for people to NAG ORACLE and NC! >> you need to get pressure at the sales office. > >Julian's right. It seems that nagging convinced O'Reilly to publish a >FreeBSD book, despite years of attempts on my part (and proof that the >book was selling well). Oracle seems a good next target. > >Greg >-- Did I read that right? ORA finally doing FreeBSD book after all? -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 7 21:42:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17407 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17363 for ; Thu, 7 May 1998 21:41:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA17851; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:11:16 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980508141116.D12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:11:16 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jan B. Koum " Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) References: <19980507200748.J12200@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Thu, May 07, 1998 at 09:25:28PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 21:25:28 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > On Thu, 7 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Thu, 7 May 1998 at 2:27:01 -0700, Julian Elischer wrote: >>> >>> My best suggestion is for people to NAG ORACLE and NC! >>> you need to get pressure at the sales office. >> >> Julian's right. It seems that nagging convinced O'Reilly to publish a >> FreeBSD book, despite years of attempts on my part (and proof that the >> book was selling well). Oracle seems a good next target. > > Did I read that right? ORA finally doing FreeBSD book after all? Yes. I send a message to -chat several weeks ago. At the moment, Andy Oram is looking at the present book and deciding what he wants to change. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 07:09:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26866 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:09:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26806 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:09:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-115.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.115]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA32830; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:09:31 GMT Message-ID: <35531035.CCE5C790@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 07:01:25 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: The importance of InfoWorld References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Simply put, InfoWorld is the most prominent of the weekly trade papers dealing with networking and Internet issues. It is also one that is beginning to bring respectibility to freeware through its columns and editorial stance. The recent thread has related to IW Electric, which is their on-line version. Unfortunately, IW-E is degenerating into a flameware slugfest, and my fear is that this present anti-GPL crusade is going to turn off a lot of honest systems people who want working solutions and not controversy. I don't go there anymore. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 07:23:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29332 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:23:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA29314 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:22:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-115.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.115]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAB90316; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:22:52 GMT Message-ID: <35531503.6A81283D@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 07:21:55 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jkh@time.cdrom.com CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: NW+IOP Presentation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It went reasonably well, gave out half of the CD's. Participation wasn't great, auditorium was only half full (~45). My talk was well received, but I didn't sense a lot of movement from the 'suits' portion of the crowd. What, I have to learn to do it myself? I can't just reboot and solve all my problems? John Gallant (Sr. Editor of NWW) was definitely interested, he asked for an eval copy. Out on the floor, the main comment I got was that we need to find a way to generate hard numbers. Our first target need not be W-NT, but if we can show comparable numbers of servers or seats to an HP or Sun or AIX, we will be on their radar screens for serious products like Netective and Oracle and such, things we need. These people don't care how much your hardware or OS costs, only that we are a viable potential customer for them. We are, we just need to convince them of that. They are also well aware that we exist and that our platform works. That is not the problem. Numbers to convince beancounters, that IS the problem. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 07:36:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01499 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:36:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA01481 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10970; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:35:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 07:21:55 PDT." <35531503.6A81283D@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 07:35:40 -0700 Message-ID: <10966.894638140@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It went reasonably well, gave out half of the CD's. Participation wasn't > great, auditorium was only half full (~45). My talk was well received, > but I didn't sense a lot of movement from the 'suits' portion of the > crowd. What, I have to learn to do it myself? I can't just reboot and > solve all my problems? John Gallant (Sr. Editor of NWW) was > definitely interested, he asked for an eval copy. It takes serious finesse to sell Unix, no doubt about it. You're going up against some major FUD spread by very well-paid advertising agencies and Unix's own weaknesses where it comes to application support and configuration framework. Ah well, as Nietzsche said, what does not kill us only makes us stronger. :-) > Out on the floor, the main comment I got was that we need to find a way > to generate hard numbers. Our first target need not be W-NT, but if we > can show comparable numbers of servers or seats to an HP or Sun or AIX, > we will be on their radar screens for serious products like Netective This will always be a finger-in-the-wind task at best given that we offer free downloads. :-( - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 07:53:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03512 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:53:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA03472 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 07:53:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from <@rn.synx.com:root@synx.com>) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA13847; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:57:43 +0100 Received: from rn by s3.synx.com id aa11071; 8 May 98 16:43 BST Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 16:52:25 +0200 (CEST) From: Remy NONNENMACHER Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35531503.6A81283D@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: <9805081643.aa11071@s3.synx.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 8 May, Don Wilde wrote: > ..... > well aware that we exist and that our platform works. That is not the > problem. Numbers to convince beancounters, that IS the problem. > Well, there is an easy but disgusting way to do this: When M$ said: "we got a 100% growing in the DBMS market over the year, so we are the leader", this mean they went from 2 to 4% of this market. We can probably found a niche were FreeBSD can show impressive growing rate.... (Okay, shame on me for suggesting playing with 'divide by zero'). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 08:43:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09870 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:43:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09823 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id IAA37102; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:32 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id IAA24687; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:42:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:41:02 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Greg Lehey cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <19980508141116.D12200@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >Yes. I send a message to -chat several weeks ago. At the moment, >Andy Oram is looking at the present book and deciding what he wants to >change. Would this make Mr. Lehey the only author (beside Tim O'Reilly) to have more than one O'Reilly title? Count 'em, TWO O'Reilly books by Greg Lehey and he is in the FreeBSD camp. Woo Hoo! We can't get better advocacy than that. I will buy my copy as soon as it hits the shelves. (OBTW, I bought my copy of the WC book too. It is at a friend's house now. He is undergoing the slow process of assimilation into the free software realm and away from Rich Uncle Bill from Redmond. Actually, it is more like an exorcism, but without the head twisting and vomiting.:)) Congrats Greg! Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 08:46:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10535 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:46:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10352 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:45:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01420; Fri, 8 May 1998 08:45:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805081545.IAA01420@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: The importance of InfoWorld In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 07:01:25 PDT." <35531035.CCE5C790@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 08:45:35 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It started as a slug-fest due to the insect-like reaction of linux zealots with repect to anything which critiques the GPL. What I and others are trying to do is attack the "wild crazed linux fanatics" and try to draw them to a more sane level by presenting both linux and freebsd as viable OS alternatives and yes both linux and freebsd enthusiasts are presenting a more balance picture. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 09:14:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15502 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:14:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15495 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:14:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01674; Fri, 8 May 1998 09:14:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805081614.JAA01674@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 07:21:55 PDT." <35531503.6A81283D@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 09:14:50 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Something to sell suits is the ease of maintenance of FreeBSD compared to Solaris or Win-NT. Large organizations can afford to hire systems programmers . Typically, in the commercial unix world and win xx world one file bugs and against the OS and then has to wait for bug fixes however the OS vendor decides to fix the bugs based upon its internal metrics and sense of commercial viability. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 11:43:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11299 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:43:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11203 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:43:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-177.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.177]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA60754; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:43:07 GMT Message-ID: <3553520F.F7AA3C7B@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 11:42:23 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation References: <10966.894638140@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > It went reasonably well, gave out half of the CD's. Participation wasn't > > great, auditorium was only half full (~45). My talk was well received, > > but I didn't sense a lot of movement from the 'suits' portion of the > > crowd. What, I have to learn to do it myself? I can't just reboot and > > solve all my problems? John Gallant (Sr. Editor of NWW) was > > definitely interested, he asked for an eval copy. > > It takes serious finesse to sell Unix, no doubt about it. You're > going up against some major FUD spread by very well-paid advertising > agencies and Unix's own weaknesses where it comes to application > support and configuration framework. Ah well, as Nietzsche said, what > does not kill us only makes us stronger. :-) > Finesse and perseverence... and easier installs. I'm looking at your sysinstall source files, wading through them. The Test will be what I can do with it... ;) > > Out on the floor, the main comment I got was that we need to find a way > > to generate hard numbers. Our first target need not be W-NT, but if we > > can show comparable numbers of servers or seats to an HP or Sun or AIX, > > we will be on their radar screens for serious products like Netective > > This will always be a finger-in-the-wind task at best given that we > offer free downloads. :-( Can you sift the logs to determine anon ID? At least with that we can get a number with 'upgrade' downloads subtracted. It doesn't help with multiple-machine sites, though. I'm going to go back and revisit my earlier idea of a 'chain letter' posting. Since it's in everybody's interest, we should get a decent response. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 11:59:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14528 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:59:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14429 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 11:59:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id OAA10681 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:54:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:59:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is just getting depressing :) http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 13:19:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28729 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:19:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sputnik.micromenders.com (sputnik.micromenders.com [209.40.32.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28600 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:18:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jar@rci.net) Received: from rci.net ([209.40.33.1]) by sputnik.micromenders.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA04470; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:15:19 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <35532ED9.C0D076CD@rci.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 16:12:09 +0000 From: Jack Rusher Organization: RCI.NET X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dwilde1@ibm.net CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation References: <35531503.6A81283D@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > > Out on the floor, the main comment I got was that we need to find a way > to generate hard numbers. Our first target need not be W-NT, but if we > can show comparable numbers of servers or seats to an HP or Sun or AIX, > we will be on their radar screens for serious products like Netective > and Oracle and such, things we need. These people don't care how much > your hardware or OS costs, only that we are a viable potential customer > for them. We are, we just need to convince them of that. They are also > well aware that we exist and that our platform works. That is not the > problem. Numbers to convince beancounters, that IS the problem. To add an upside to this thread, I know of several important products from other parts of Unix-land that are being ported to the BSDs. We are involved in a few of them, and I will let you guys know as each product ships. Some that are on the way: Veritas filesystem (currently a highly Sun-targeted product) Firstwatch high available clustering and failover (again, normally Sun) Some nice GUI tools for handling clusters (this is a running theme for me because of what we do with our FreeBSD servers), which are easy to port because they were written in Java. Some numbers to add to the "how big is the market" spreadsheet (even if we are only a drop in the bucket): We currently have ~25 FreeBSD servers in our core NOCs in two cities, and are deploying ~50 more by Q3 of '99 in four more NOCs. Our enterprise also has ~75 FreeBSD servers colocated at client facilities to handle firewall/gateway/departmental e-mail services. We do millions a year in revenue, and we have scores of F1000 companies running on FreeBSD RIGHT NOW. The shit works. Highest uptimes are ~400 days. We can afford whatever we want, and we choose FreeBSD because it is the best OS we have ever seen (commercial or otherwise). The only servers we use that aren't FreeBSD are Sun Enterprise servers for Oracle, so: Make 'em port Oracle! -jack To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 13:38:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03374 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:38:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [207.170.17.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03241 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 13:38:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA02088; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:37:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) id PAA29076; Fri, 8 May 1998 15:37:19 -0500 Message-ID: <19980508153718.49093@right.PCS> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:37:18 -0500 From: Jonathan Lemon To: Jack Rusher Cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation References: <35531503.6A81283D@ibm.net> <35532ED9.C0D076CD@rci.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.61.1 In-Reply-To: <35532ED9.C0D076CD@rci.net>; from Jack Rusher on May 05, 1998 at 04:12:09PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On May 05, 1998 at 04:12:09PM +0000, Jack Rusher wrote: > (commercial or otherwise). The only servers we use that aren't FreeBSD > are Sun Enterprise servers for Oracle, so: Make 'em port Oracle! NC (a subsidary of Oracle) does have native FreeBSD Oracle7 binaries. I believe they are shipped as part of their NCOS (rebadged FreeBSD). (?) Now, everyone call NC/Oracle and pester them to make this an official product. Also, Oracle Week starts next week in Orlando, FL, so if anyone here is going, make sure to make inquires there, as well. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 14:10:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12374 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:10:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12301 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:10:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id OAA28587; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:10:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:10:31 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG No this is not depressing at all IMHO. We should all be happy. As more and more people follow Netscape we will have more and more free source code. Isn't it our goal after all? And with free source code guess what??? We can compile FreeBSD apps. Incredible, isn't it. So what if Linux goes first. They have bigger user base currently. We go second.. or third.. as long as Microsoft and proprietary standards go last we all win. I am going to try to call Corel and thank them for doing what Netscape did. I will also mention FreeBSD. I suggest we all do.. now I just have to dig up a number somewhere off the web. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. On Fri, 8 May 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > >This is just getting depressing :) > >http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html > >Chris > >-- >"I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" > >===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. > FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 >-----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 > FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net > http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security >===================================| http://open-systems.net > >-----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- >Version: 2.6.2 > >mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te >gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC >foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z >d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb >NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv >CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 >b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= >=BBjp >-----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 14:22:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15054 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:22:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14896 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:22:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id RAA11475; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:17:12 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:22:16 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > No this is not depressing at all IMHO. We should all be > happy. As more and more people follow Netscape we will have more and more > free source code. Isn't it our goal after all? And with free source code > guess what??? We can compile FreeBSD apps. Incredible, isn't it. So what > if Linux goes first. They have bigger user base currently. We go second.. > or third.. as long as Microsoft and proprietary standards go last we all > win. > I am going to try to call Corel and thank them for doing what > Netscape did. I will also mention FreeBSD. I suggest we all do.. now I > just have to dig up a number somewhere off the web. I already sent them a happy-gram email linux@corelcomputer.com I agree it's good and MS looses I just wish it would have been FreeBSD :) Because in this case user base is not important since its the basis for a product. Windows users wont care what is powering this NC. So the udnerlying userbase of the software powering this NC is moot. I just wish they would ahve used FreeBSD. But it's still a good move for free software I already mailed them personally and applauded their move, in a non biased way. Hmm I wonder if im capable of doing that. heh Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 14:30:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16722 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:30:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@huron.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16573 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:29:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA20295; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:29:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:29:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Alex cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS.. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 7 May 1998, Alex wrote: > http://www.ci.infobeads.com/INSIDER/PAGES/TOPICS/INTERNET/ISP_HW_0505/Default.asp > > Hrm, and FreeBSD was nowhere to be found. Interesting. Very unbelievable that FreeBSD doesn't even come up with 5.7% like HP does. I smell a rat, or at least poor statistical practice. Does it say anywhere that they allowed vendors to "opt in" to the survey? If so, then it is worthless. I cannot check myself because just about everyt link on the site returns a page claiming that the HP-UX version of Netscape 4.04 is not a supported client. This puts the site very low on my list of credible sources of information. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 14:37:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18284 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:37:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18152 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:37:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id RAA14427 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:32:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:37:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Anyone read THIS one? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.news.com/SpecialFeatures/0,5,18652,00.html The same is true with two other major freeware projects, the Apache Web server and the FreeBSD operating system, both Unix-based. FreeBSD is Linux's younger cousin and counts an estimated 500,000 users, according to David Greenman, principal architect on the core FreeBSD team. Uhh YOUNGER cousin? BSD's heritage is FAR older than linux itself by some 15+ years. And we are not related. We have a BSD family. Linux doesn't :) Where did this guy get this information. And I thought david never gave out figures? Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 14:39:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18599 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:39:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@huron.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18463 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 14:38:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id RAA20311; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:38:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:38:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: Greg Lehey , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Fri, 8 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >Yes. I send a message to -chat several weeks ago. At the moment, > >Andy Oram is looking at the present book and deciding what he wants to > >change. [...snip...] > I will buy my copy as soon as it hits the shelves. I will definitely be doing the same. > (OBTW, I bought my copy of the WC book too. It is at a friend's house now. I bought three just last week. ;-) I give them out when I set up FreeBSD boxes for consulting customers. I am so glad the new edition is as big and thurough as it is. Keep up the good work! My only hope on the new book is that there is less manpage filler. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 16:45:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13111 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:45:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA13064 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 16:45:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from <@rn.synx.com:root@synx.com>) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id AAA17165; Sat, 9 May 1998 00:49:57 +0100 Received: from rn by s3.synx.com id aa12916; 9 May 98 1:35 BST Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 01:44:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Remy NONNENMACHER Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? To: opsys@mail.webspan.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: <9805090135.aa12916@s3.synx.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 8 May, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > This is just getting depressing :) > > http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html > > Chris Why being depressed ? It's only the start of the movement for pushing M$ off the road before Y2K. think: - 33% of M$ apps will survive 1 Jan 2000. - As an M$ user you need to upgrade - You know that you will have (as usual) a lot of problems doing that - problems for problems, let's see what's new... - Ho!! free Wordperfect, Free Applix, Free everything.... Under what ? ho!!! the shining Linux !! the one everybody talks about.. Well that's only the beginning. Wait for mid-99. They will all give you money with software :) Remember, Linux, as replacement for Win9x, is the best door-opener for FreeBSD as NT replacement. So don't be too depressed... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 17:03:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16466 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:03:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16386 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:03:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id RAA29472; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:03:29 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id RAA16250; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:03:28 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:02:00 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Jack Rusher cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation In-Reply-To: <35532ED9.C0D076CD@rci.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998, Jack Rusher wrote: >Some numbers to add to the "how big is the market" spreadsheet (even if >we are only a drop in the bucket): Is your organization aware of the FreeBSD gallery on the website? I think you could help support FreeBSD by filling out the form and getting your organization some exposure too! :) Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 17:05:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16753 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:05:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16666 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:05:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id RAA33112; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:05:06 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id RAA15802; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 17:03:36 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Don Wilde cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation In-Reply-To: <3553520F.F7AA3C7B@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998, Don Wilde wrote: >multiple-machine sites, though. I'm going to go back and revisit my >earlier idea of a 'chain letter' posting. Since it's in everybody's By this do you mean SPAM? Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 17:07:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17030 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:07:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16903 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:06:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA24477; Sat, 9 May 1998 09:35:58 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980509093558.Q12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 09:35:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Adrian Filipi-Martin on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 05:38:21PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 17:38:21 -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > On Fri, 8 May 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >> On Fri, 8 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >> >>> Yes. I send a message to -chat several weeks ago. At the moment, >>> Andy Oram is looking at the present book and deciding what he wants to >>> change. > > [...snip...] > >> I will buy my copy as soon as it hits the shelves. > > I will definitely be doing the same. > >> (OBTW, I bought my copy of the WC book too. It is at a friend's house now. > > I bought three just last week. ;-) I give them out when I set up > FreeBSD boxes for consulting customers. I am so glad the new edition is > as big and thurough as it is. Keep up the good work! My only hope on the > new book is that there is less manpage filler. Nice to hear you like it. You'll be pleased to know that the man pages will probably go altogether, but that will make the book thinner, of course. Andy has this thing about books with more than 600 pages. You'll note that his own is only 150 pages. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 17:11:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17840 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:11:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA17631 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:10:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from <@rn.synx.com:root@synx.com>) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA17329; Sat, 9 May 1998 01:15:17 +0100 Received: from rn by s3.synx.com id aa12992; 9 May 98 2:00 BST Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 02:09:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Remy NONNENMACHER Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: Re: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS.. To: adrian@virginia.edu cc: adrian@nvl.virginia.edu, garbanzo@hooked.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: <9805090200.aa12992@s3.synx.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 8 May, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > On Thu, 7 May 1998, Alex wrote: > >> http://www.ci.infobeads.com/INSIDER/PAGES/TOPICS/INTERNET/ISP_HW_0505/Default.asp >> >> Hrm, and FreeBSD was nowhere to be found. Interesting. > > Very unbelievable that FreeBSD doesn't even come up with 5.7% like > HP does. I smell a rat, or at least poor statistical practice. > > Does it say anywhere that they allowed vendors to "opt in" to the > survey? If so, then it is worthless. > Countless incoherencies ; HP machines: 3%, HP-UX: 5.7% !! Since when does HP-UX runs somewhere else than under HP computers ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 17:34:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21859 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:34:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21824 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:34:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA27458; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:33:57 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:33:56 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Remy NONNENMACHER cc: opsys@mail.webspan.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? In-Reply-To: <9805090135.aa12916@s3.synx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 9 May 1998, Remy NONNENMACHER wrote: > Remember, Linux, as replacement for Win9x, is the best door-opener for > FreeBSD as NT replacement. So don't be too depressed... Well, I'm not sure how well that words out, really. Two cases: 1) Linux works, so why change to that FreeBSD thing that all these Linux people (recall their attitude) hate, since those Linux people are the gods who made this system we all love. 2) Linux doesn't work, so why even try that FreeBSD thing, since it's just that thing that's 'kinda like Linux', and is 'Linux's younger cousin'. Not saying we won't get converts, but that's the way the masses are going to go. We can't just be 'there with Linux', we have to be there with Linux and NOT BE Linux in the monds of the people. We're FreeBSD, we're not that other thing that's like Linux. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 17:55:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24692 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:55:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24656 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:55:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16488; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:54:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 11:42:23 PDT." <3553520F.F7AA3C7B@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:54:35 -0700 Message-ID: <16484.894675275@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Can you sift the logs to determine anon ID? At least with that we can > get a number with 'upgrade' downloads subtracted. It doesn't help with Doesn't really help since: 1. We're only getting stats from ftp.cdrom.com and none of the mirrors. 2. We can't tell mirrors from ordinary users, and sometimes the mirrors have been known to go nuts and remirror freebsd over and over again, thus totally screwing up the download stats. 3. It's hard to tell the "I installed a full dist" from the "I just grabbed a file I was missing" folks without somehow counting up all the files they downloaded and associating them as one download. I don't think that FTP download stats are particularly valuable for this reason - they're too inaccurate. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 18:01:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25832 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:01:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25731 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:01:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16573; Fri, 8 May 1998 17:59:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Jack Rusher cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 16:12:09 -0000." <35532ED9.C0D076CD@rci.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:59:53 -0700 Message-ID: <16570.894675593@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Veritas filesystem (currently a highly Sun-targeted product) > Firstwatch high available clustering and failover (again, normally Sun) > Some nice GUI tools for handling clusters (this is a running theme > for me because of what we do with our FreeBSD servers), which are easy > to port because they were written in Java. This all sounds great! Please keep us posted. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 18:05:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26492 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:05:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26434 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:04:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16623; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 14:59:24 EDT." Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:04:00 -0700 Message-ID: <16619.894675840@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is just getting depressing :) > > http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html Why? Sounds good to me! We can then run all this stuff! People have to stop thinking of additional Linux market penetration as such a bad thing - it's "paving the road" for us in a number of areas where we'd just plain and simply NOT be able to go otherwise. Do you think Coral would have done this strictly for us, for example? Not a chance in hell - we're not big enough to register on those sorts of radar screens yet and the fact that Linux is means that we should be happy whenever it steamrollers yet another vendor into the free software camp. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 18:16:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28163 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:16:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28051 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:16:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA24819; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:45:54 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980509104554.Y12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:45:54 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) References: <19980508141116.D12200@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 08:41:02AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 8:41:02 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Fri, 8 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> Yes. I send a message to -chat several weeks ago. At the moment, >> Andy Oram is looking at the present book and deciding what he wants to >> change. > > Would this make Mr. Lehey the only author (beside Tim O'Reilly) to have > more than one O'Reilly title? Definitely not. A brief scan of my bookshelf reveals: Andy Oram (yes, my editor) Steve Oualline Mike Loukides Steven Feuerstein Dave Ensor Ian Stevenson Bill Rosenblat Dale Dougherty I'm sure there are many more, and a number of three-book authors as well. > Congrats Greg! Thanks Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 18:21:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28897 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:21:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28884 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:21:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16746; Fri, 8 May 1998 18:20:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey cc: Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 09:35:58 +0930." <19980509093558.Q12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:20:04 -0700 Message-ID: <16742.894676804@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Nice to hear you like it. You'll be pleased to know that the man > pages will probably go altogether, but that will make the book Great, now can we get the same thing to happen for the WC version? Everyone hates the man pages! ;-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 19:07:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05659 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:07:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05650 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:07:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA25009; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:37:22 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980509113722.Z12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 11:37:22 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) References: <19980509093558.Q12200@freebie.lemis.com> <16742.894676804@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <16742.894676804@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 06:20:04PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 18:20:04 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Nice to hear you like it. You'll be pleased to know that the man >> pages will probably go altogether, but that will make the book > > Great, now can we get the same thing to happen for the WC version? > Everyone hates the man pages! ;-) Do they? This is the first complaint I've heard. But maybe they'll let you into to storeroom to tear them out. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 19:44:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10657 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:44:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10639 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 19:44:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id WAA03315; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:43:57 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from voyager.cris.com (voyager.concentric.net [206.173.119.82]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.8) id WAA12091; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 22:43:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@voyager.cris.com To: Greg Lehey cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <19980509113722.Z12200@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 9 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Great, now can we get the same thing to happen for the WC version? > > Everyone hates the man pages! ;-) > > Do they? This is the first complaint I've heard. But maybe they'll > let you into to storeroom to tear them out. If OReilly is going to kill the man pages (and it certainly appears that they are going to do so), I would buy another book that HAD the man pages. I PREFER -to the point of chemical dependency- written documentation. Of course my REAL plan is to simply by the version that is available NOW, and then the OReilly release when it comes available. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 20:19:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13478 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:19:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13445; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:18:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA25440; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:48:29 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980509124829.K12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 12:48:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Open Systems Networking Cc: Dan Benjamin , FreeBSD Chat , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSD Week (was: Demo CDs (was: blessing)) References: <19980504145711.M4777@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Watson on Mon, May 04, 1998 at 02:01:07AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 4 May 1998 at 2:01:07 -0400, Chris Watson wrote: > >> BSD Week? What's that? > > Heh I knew someone would catch that :) > That i believe is dan's idea. A BSD magazine web based of course. > To give us a place to spill articles and whatnot like linuxjournal, or > linuxgazette. I started writing an article for it myself a few weeks ago > when dan first mentioned it. Part of that PR hooha I wanted to see happen. > This is a really good example of what I was talking about. > I think it will be great if it actually works and people write for it. > I'm just glad it has started. > But I'll let dan dish info on BSD week :) OK, Dan, go for it -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 20:38:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15883 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:38:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15858 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:38:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-165.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.165]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA22820; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:38:35 GMT Message-ID: <3553C473.ECA1CD5E@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 19:50:27 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Open Systems Networking , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? References: <16619.894675840@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > This is just getting depressing :) > > > > http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html > > Why? Sounds good to me! We can then run all this stuff! > > People have to stop thinking of additional Linux market penetration as > such a bad thing - it's "paving the road" for us in a number of areas > where we'd just plain and simply NOT be able to go otherwise. Do you I agree with that thought, but I see trouble in the longer term. What this is doing is shifting the battlefield, and faster than we would have thought. People will see that it works. NCI will bring out their version with Free/OpenBSD, and Sun will finally open-source the Java OS The new battleground will be hardware which runs free software. The old (software) dinosaurs can't compete in this battleground. M$ will die, because they can't expose the fact that the Emperor has no d*** under his fancy clothes. Hardware architectures will become the next weapons, and (I hate to say it) unless Intel or Oracle really move quickly to dominate this battle, Linux will have the advantage because it runs on all, from StrongARM to P-II. The user wants universality, not ultimate performance. We need to see where we can go in this scenario, where we should position ourselves. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 20:39:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15969 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:39:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15942 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:38:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-165.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.165]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA107458; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:38:52 GMT Message-ID: <3553CE6C.BC923F5A@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 20:33:00 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not at all. We post the original questionnaire on FreeBSD-questions, and ask that everybody forward it to everybody else that they know uses FreeBSD. Might also put in a section for those who did use it and dropped it. I'm sure the Linux ilk will mail bomb us if we do that but we might get some useful data as to why the drops. The questionnaire will be simple enough, but it will give us a decent amount of data. We set up an address to return it to -- both electronic and postal -- and have a CGI on the electronic address to process the responses. It would also be worthwhile to improve the 'registration' screen on the next batch of CD's so it gives convincing arguments rather than pleading, and offers several ways to register. Since it's in everybody's interest to show numbers, I think we'll get a decent response. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 20:39:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15979 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:39:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15964 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:38:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-165.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.165]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA77018; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:38:55 GMT Message-ID: <3553CF1D.6A6ACCB8@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 20:35:57 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation References: <16484.894675275@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Good point. All right, how about a short directory-entry message pointing them to the questionnaire I'm talking about? This will be mirrored too, although I'm not sure what it will look like in Russian or Japanese. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 20:39:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16008 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:39:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15961 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:38:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-165.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.165]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA20892; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:38:48 GMT Message-ID: <3553CC19.34EC2012@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 20:23:05 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jack Rusher CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation References: <35531503.6A81283D@ibm.net> <35532ED9.C0D076CD@rci.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey, Jack, can you do that up as an article for BSDWEEK or FreeBSD Newsletter? (Just blue-pencil "The shit works!" ;) ) Not the products, though that's great news, but your usage. Better yet, package it for Network World and ship it off to John Gallant as a case study. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 20:47:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16788 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:47:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16749 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 20:46:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-165.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.165]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id DAA60944; Sat, 9 May 1998 03:46:55 GMT Message-ID: <3553D19F.71EC2B70@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 20:46:39 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Short CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG A book of just man pages would be nice. I agree that they add clumsiness to the present edition. Actually, I'd rather see a print format script that would set them up for looseleaf usage. I'm sure somebody will now tell me "it's in there!" That way, when I do a project, I could just dump pertinent pages (whether core or add-on packages) and insert them behind my project docs. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 21:10:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18601 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:10:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu [130.126.72.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA18592 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:10:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dannyman@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu) Received: (from dannyman@localhost) by arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.5) id XAA17242; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:10:15 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980508231014.31809@arh0300.urh.uiuc.edu> Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 23:10:14 -0500 From: dannyman To: Andrew Short , Greg Lehey Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) Mail-Followup-To: Andrew Short , Greg Lehey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19980509113722.Z12200@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Andrew Short on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 10:43:53PM -0400 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.uiuc.edu/ph/www/djhoward/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, May 08, 1998 at 10:43:53PM -0400, Andrew Short wrote: > If OReilly is going to kill the man pages (and it certainly appears that > they are going to do so), I would buy another book that HAD the man pages. > I PREFER -to the point of chemical dependency- written documentation. *scratches chin* I need a shave ... oh .. man lpr ;) -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 21:14:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA18895 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from saten.dyn.ml.org (136.ppp2.gulftel.com [208.222.58.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA18865 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:13:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (advocacy@localhost) by saten.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA00899; Fri, 8 May 1998 23:11:55 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 23:11:54 -0500 (CDT) From: Phillip Salzman To: Don Wilde cc: Andrew Short , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <3553D19F.71EC2B70@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > A book of just man pages would be nice. I agree that they add clumsiness > to the present edition. > They already have a book of manpages, "The Complete FreeBSD." Its almost all manpages, adding a section on how to install and some (a lot) things about installing X11. Just get it at WC. Although, ORA makes good books.. i'm probally going to buy it. Phillip Salzman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 21:42:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21194 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:42:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21138 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:41:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA25727; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:11:29 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980509141129.Q12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:11:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: dwilde1@ibm.net, Andrew Short Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) References: <3553D19F.71EC2B70@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3553D19F.71EC2B70@ibm.net>; from Don Wilde on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 08:46:39PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 20:46:39 -0700, Don Wilde wrote: > A book of just man pages would be nice. I agree that they add clumsiness > to the present edition. > > Actually, I'd rather see a print format script that would set them up > for looseleaf usage. I'm sure somebody will now tell me "it's in there!" > That way, when I do a project, I could just dump pertinent pages > (whether core or add-on packages) and insert them behind my project > docs. zcat $1 | pic | tbl | eqn | groff -mandoc >$1.ps Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 21:43:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21459 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21401 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA25735; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:12:37 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980509141237.R12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:12:37 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Phillip Salzman , Don Wilde Cc: Andrew Short , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) References: <3553D19F.71EC2B70@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Phillip Salzman on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 11:11:54PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 23:11:54 -0500, Phillip Salzman wrote: > On Fri, 8 May 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > >> A book of just man pages would be nice. I agree that they add clumsiness >> to the present edition. >> > > They already have a book of manpages, "The Complete FreeBSD." > > Its almost all manpages, adding a section on how to install > and some (a lot) things about installing X11. > > Just get it at WC. Although, ORA makes good books.. i'm probally > going to buy it. This is where we came in. Jordan said the book had too many man pages. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 21:58:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22721 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:58:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22716 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:58:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17331; Fri, 8 May 1998 21:57:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey cc: Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 11:37:22 +0930." <19980509113722.Z12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 21:57:19 -0700 Message-ID: <17327.894689839@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Do they? This is the first complaint I've heard. But maybe they'll > let you into to storeroom to tear them out. Well, I don't want to air too much of our dirty laundry in the -advocacy list, but let's just say that when Jack, our dear departed V.P. of marketing, first got it in his head to add all those man pages to the first edition (and, as the story goes, without even informing yourself first) it was not greeted by general applause and cries of "man pages! bring us more printed man pages!" by the audience. I also don't take all the Walnut Creek tech support calls personally (in fact, I take them only when I absolutely can't avoid it :), but it's been my general impression from talking to those who do that customer sentiment leans less toward seeing printed man pages and more toward seeing the same space occupied by tutorials on setting up utilities like apache and natd or setting up mailing lists and playing with virtual mailertables in sendmail. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 22:05:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23239 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:05:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23233 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:05:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17372; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:04:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: Open Systems Networking , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 19:50:27 PDT." <3553C473.ECA1CD5E@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:04:18 -0700 Message-ID: <17368.894690258@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > performance. We need to see where we can go in this scenario, where we > should position ourselves. Ah, but that's the beauty of free software - you're spared from spending too much time in the contemplation of such details by the fact that _development_, around which everything revolves, will continue at its own holistic pace no matter grand plans you might dream up about running on 56 different architectures. :-) Jordan "who's seen the SPARC and ALPHA ports turn into 5 year plans and isn't going to hold his breath on things like StrongARM" Hubbard. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 22:13:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24177 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24147 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:13:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17406; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:12:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 08 May 1998 20:35:57 PDT." <3553CF1D.6A6ACCB8@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:12:14 -0700 Message-ID: <17402.894690734@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG And in what fashion would this questionaire attract broader attention than the registration form we're already employing? I'm not saying it's not possible to attract broader attention, I'm simply trying to make the important point that the act of putting together a questionaire is not in and of itself enough - it has to somehow be sexy and alluring enough for the users to respond to it in significant numbers. I've seen any number of FreeBSD user polls get utterly ignored by the user base and even the registration form, which is about as in-your-face as it's possible to get in the installation and still not piss people off, has attracted just over 30K registrants in the year it's been in operation. The registration data thus collected is also valuable, don't get me wrong, but as these things generally go, 30K is simply puny. When you can demonstrate 200K or more verified user registrations in some special interest group, then the smaller sections of the market begin to take notice of it. - Jordan > > Good point. All right, how about a short directory-entry message > pointing them to the questionnaire I'm talking about? This will be > mirrored too, although I'm not sure what it will look like in Russian or > Japanese. :-) > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 22:14:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24354 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:14:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24255 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:13:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA25857; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:43:22 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980509144322.S12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 14:43:22 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) References: <19980509113722.Z12200@freebie.lemis.com> <17327.894689839@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <17327.894689839@time.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, May 08, 1998 at 09:57:19PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998 at 21:57:19 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Do they? This is the first complaint I've heard. But maybe they'll >> let you into to storeroom to tear them out. > > Well, I don't want to air too much of our dirty laundry in the > -advocacy list, Good idea, but I suppose we should finish off this discussion. > but let's just say that when Jack, our dear departed V.P. of > marketing, first got it in his head to add all those man pages to > the first edition (and, as the story goes, without even informing > yourself first) it was not greeted by general applause and cries of > "man pages! bring us more printed man pages!" by the audience. Well, to be fair to Jack, he *did* inform me first. I suppose it was really my idea. Here's a bit of the background, most of which you know, but which others may not. In October 1995, Jack Velte, Greg Long and a few other people from WC were doing the Frankfurt Book Fair and came to visit me--I lived about 50 miles from Frankfurt at the time. Jack was bemoaning the fact that FreeBSD wasn't selling because they didn't have a good book on installing it. It didn't have to be much--50 pages or so, he said. I had just submitted the final draft of "Porting UNIX Software" (O'Reilly), and so I was pretty much in training, so I said, "sure, I'll write your 50 pages for you". Went downstairs, and before they left that evening they had a draft of 12 pages or so to think about. Well, they liked it, but the way things go, people, particulary Jack, kept changing their minds, so the book was a race to get something finished before Jack changed his mind about what something was. What finally appeared was "Installing and Running FreeBSD", which I submitted in February 1996--about 330 pages, including 50 pages of essential man pages needed to help you if the system wouldn't come up. It had barely started shipping, in March 1996, when Jack called me. The discussion went something like this: J: Greg, that book of yours, it's not thick enough, we need something at least as big as all those Linux books out there. G: How big's that? J: Oh, I don't know, about 1500 pages. G: And when do you want it by? J: Man, we're in a hurry. Can you do it by next month? G: No. J: Why not? At this point he had also been intending to publish *all* the FreeBSD man pages (about 5000 odd pages, in case you're interested). After a while, I suggested that if he wanted bulk, the obvious choice would be to include more man pages into the book. We finally agreed on the number of pages, and I added some corrections and additions to the book, and also had to accept this damned silly narrow page format which nearly drove me crazy, and submitted the book for publication in early May. For some reason, nothing happened, and I resubmitted in August, when it did get published. > I also don't take all the Walnut Creek tech support calls personally > (in fact, I take them only when I absolutely can't avoid it :), but > it's been my general impression from talking to those who do that > customer sentiment leans less toward seeing printed man pages and more > toward seeing the same space occupied by tutorials on setting up > utilities like apache and natd or setting up mailing lists and playing > with virtual mailertables in sendmail. No doubt. There's not much point in having man pages for stuff that isn't covered in the text. Surprisingly, there's very little in the man pages which doens't have at least on reference from the text. Anyway, the man pages will go away for the O'Reilly version, and I've accepted it in much the same spirit as I accepted their arrival. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 8 22:22:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25872 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:22:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA25849 for ; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:22:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17496; Fri, 8 May 1998 22:21:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey cc: Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 14:43:22 +0930." <19980509144322.S12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 22:21:09 -0700 Message-ID: <17491.894691269@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > No doubt. There's not much point in having man pages for stuff that > isn't covered in the text. Surprisingly, there's very little in the So, uh, that means you'll be replacing the man pages by the aformentioned tutorials for the next edition of the Walnut Creek publication too? - Jordan "pushin' mah luck" Hubbard :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 04:18:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA04091 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 04:18:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from saten.dyn.ml.org (136.ppp2.gulftel.com [208.222.58.136]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA04076 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 04:18:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (advocacy@localhost) by saten.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id GAA04001; Sat, 9 May 1998 06:16:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 06:16:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Phillip Salzman To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation In-Reply-To: <16484.894675275@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I don't think that FTP download stats are particularly valuable for this > reason - they're too inaccurate. What about the 'Register FreeBSD' thing? I understand some people may not of registered, and some registered more than once. Phillip Salzman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 04:57:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA08074 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 04:57:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail3.mailsorter.net (mail3.mailsorter.net [207.67.128.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA08069 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 04:57:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kriston@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net ([152.168.129.20]) by mail3.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA6996 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 04:56:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3554460F.45639CCE@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 08:03:27 -0400 From: "Kriston J. Rehberg" Organization: http://kriston.net/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) References: <16742.894676804@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yeah, those hundreds and hundreds of man pages are completely and utterly useless. I dare say they were included in the "Complete FreeBSD" book for the sole purpose of making the book look larger and more impressive than it actually was. Kris Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > Nice to hear you like it. You'll be pleased to know that the man > > pages will probably go altogether, but that will make the book > > Great, now can we get the same thing to happen for the WC version? > Everyone hates the man pages! ;-) > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Kriston J. Rehberg http://kriston.net/ endeavor to persevere To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 05:40:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10113 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 05:40:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from crimson.protovision (root@p116-50.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.197.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA10063 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 05:40:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stjerneby@usa.net) Received: from usa.net (bwulf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by crimson.protovision (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05807 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:39:49 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from stjerneby@usa.net) Message-ID: <35544A6A.6BEF8785@usa.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 14:22:02 +0200 From: Sune Stjerneby Reply-To: stjerneby@usa.net Organization: Organised, me? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? References: <16619.894675840@time.cdrom.com> <3553C473.ECA1CD5E@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > his fancy clothes. Hardware architectures will become the next weapons, > and (I hate to say it) unless Intel or Oracle really move quickly to > dominate this battle, Linux will have the advantage because it runs on > all, from StrongARM to P-II. The user wants universality, not ultimate > performance. We need to see where we can go in this scenario, where we > should position ourselves. In this context, forget not the road of The NetBSD Project (and later OpenBSD), who IMO has pioneered the idea of a highly arch-independent OS and kernel, with ~15-20 (combined) platforms supported by now, however old and obscure, or new. NetBSD happened several years before Linux began covering anything but x86, and if arch-support is to be the next battleground, it would be an excellent example for FreeBSD to follow. I know of individuals with non-x86 hardware, who turn to something like SPARClinux or Linux/m68k, simply because they lack awareness of {Net,Open}BSD, or find it slightly too obscure. (admittetly, compared to FreeBSD, NetBSD isn't an out-of-the-box product, but it's not rocket science) Bringing other architechtures FreeBSD would definitively help opening some eyes. -- //bwulf - Sune Stjerneby -- "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur." -- "4.4BSD UNIX - A Real Operating System for Real Users." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 06:19:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12580 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 06:19:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from crimson.protovision (root@p101-52.ppp.get2net.dk [195.82.192.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA12569 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 06:19:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stjerneby@usa.net) Received: from usa.net (bwulf@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by crimson.protovision (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00306 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:19:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from stjerneby@usa.net) Message-ID: <35544A6A.6BEF8785@usa.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 14:22:02 +0200 From: Sune Stjerneby Reply-To: stjerneby@usa.net Organization: Organised, me? X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? References: <16619.894675840@time.cdrom.com> <3553C473.ECA1CD5E@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > his fancy clothes. Hardware architectures will become the next weapons, > and (I hate to say it) unless Intel or Oracle really move quickly to > dominate this battle, Linux will have the advantage because it runs on > all, from StrongARM to P-II. The user wants universality, not ultimate > performance. We need to see where we can go in this scenario, where we > should position ourselves. In this context, forget not the road of The NetBSD Project (and later OpenBSD), who IMO has pioneered the idea of a highly arch-independent OS and kernel, with ~15-20 (combined) platforms supported by now, however old and obscure, or new. NetBSD happened several years before Linux began covering anything but x86, and if arch-support is to be the next battleground, it would be an excellent example for FreeBSD to follow. I know of individuals with non-x86 hardware, who turn to something like SPARClinux or Linux/m68k, simply because they lack awareness of {Net,Open}BSD, or find it slightly too obscure. (admittetly, compared to FreeBSD, NetBSD isn't an out-of-the-box product, but it's not rocket science) Bringing other architechtures FreeBSD would definitively help opening some eyes. -- //bwulf - Sune Stjerneby -- "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur." -- "4.4BSD UNIX - A Real Operating System for Real Users." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 08:05:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21620 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:05:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA21615 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 08:05:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from <@rn.synx.com:root@synx.com>) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA22477; Sat, 9 May 1998 16:10:02 +0100 Received: from rn by s3.synx.com id aa15493; 9 May 98 16:55 BST Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 17:04:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Remy NONNENMACHER Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, opsys@mail.webspan.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3553C473.ECA1CD5E@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: <9805091655.aa15493@s3.synx.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 8 May, Don Wilde wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> >> > This is just getting depressing :) >> > >> > http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html >> >> Why? Sounds good to me! We can then run all this stuff! >> >> People have to stop thinking of additional Linux market penetration as >> such a bad thing - it's "paving the road" for us in a number of areas >> where we'd just plain and simply NOT be able to go otherwise. Do you > > I agree with that thought, but I see trouble in the longer term. What > this is doing is shifting the battlefield, and faster than we would have > thought. People will see that it works. NCI will bring out their version > with Free/OpenBSD, and Sun will finally open-source the Java OS The new > battleground will be hardware which runs free software. The old > (software) dinosaurs can't compete in this battleground. M$ will die, > because they can't expose the fact that the Emperor has no d*** under > his fancy clothes. Hardware architectures will become the next weapons, > and (I hate to say it) unless Intel or Oracle really move quickly to > dominate this battle, Linux will have the advantage because it runs on > all, from StrongARM to P-II. The user wants universality, not ultimate > performance. We need to see where we can go in this scenario, where we > should position ourselves. > I'm not really sure users want universality. They would not stick so massively with wintel. FreeBSD can lead the server group by focusing effort on SMP, high-end processors (PII,ALPHA,MERCED no more, no less), GUI for administration, new filesystems types, etc... and let linux lead the workstation group where brightness, PR, versatility is needed but so energy-consuming. Linux success will help us in two ways: getting users out of the M$ integrism and having them adopt the idea that free software *IS* better than proprietary. For the moment, the war is M$ vs Linux. Let's keep away from shrapnels and let's be prepared to grap the NT portion of the future defunct. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 10:24:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01979 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:24:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01964 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:24:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11085; Sat, 9 May 1998 10:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805091724.KAA11085@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Advocay: Pro Choice Tax! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 10:24:10 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Was just thinking about the following model: Allow PC computer manufacturers to sell alternative OS distributions such as FreeBSD required them to provide functional equivalent distributions for instance bundle in a version of an office suite such as StarOffice, Corel Office and have the PC manufacturers pay the software vendors a sum similar to what they are paying microsoft. Targetted PC manufacturers are IBM, HP, and Compaq given that they are familiar with Unix. Perhaps we should focus on HP ( I work for HP as a consultant) and as a whole they are anti-monopolistic which is strange given their recent alliance with microsoft. It is very clear that the PC manufacturers completely ignore Ralph Nader's request to provide alternative OS distributions;nevertheless , I noticed that PC manufacturers and microsoft are concerned with the possibility of Win 98 being delayed by pressure from the DOJ. Hence, this is the right time to petition PC manufacturers to offer FreeBSD distributions via a two prong strategy encourage the DOJ to block win 98 and ask the PC manufacturers to provide alternative OS distributions . What we need is a nice letter drafted by someone like Brett requesting the DOJ to block Win 98 until microsoft allows its pc manufacturers to provide an alternative OS without penalty . Second a letter to PC manufacturers asking them to provide alternative OS distributions and perhaps add in the letter a copy of the letter to the DOJ . At this stage we seek alternative OS distributions from the manufacturers. We need also a list of attorney generals involved in the anti-trust law suit if not a list of all attorney generals with fax , phone , address, or e-mail. The contact info for DOJ dept conducting the anti-trust lawsuit against microsoft. After the first few rounds of revisions from this email and once we have secured the letter from Brett I suggest we plaster this request all over the Net. *We* do not have weeks to act rather just a few precious and important days. The DOJ and US State Attorneys plan to file action by May 15 if we act by Monday we still have a chance of making impact. Happy Protest!! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:41:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11129 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:41:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11114 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:41:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11614 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:41:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805091841.LAA11614@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: http://www.freebsd.org ?? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:41:02 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We need a small section up front in www.freebsd.org of cool freebsd sites like http://www.thinker.org . The idea here is that when visitors walk away from http://www.freebsd.org they should leave with a sense that a lot is going on freebsd land. Currently, the web site is very OS centric however it fails to convey a feeling that freebsd is actually being used. Take a look at http:/www.javasoft.com for a sample of what I am thinking about. Every week or there abouts there is something new and exciting happening at http://www.javasoft.com . So who is good web designer and is willing to volunteer some time?? Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12669 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:56:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12632 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:55:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-225.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.225]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA72598; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:55:49 GMT Message-ID: <35549CBB.E3FB32FF@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:13:15 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: remy@synx.com CC: jkh@time.cdrom.com, opsys@mail.webspan.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? References: <9805091655.aa15493@s3.synx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yes, Remy... This is what I was getting at, focusing on server architecture and high power. We can run Linux apps, and we have guys like Amancio who will help us run fancy Linux apps for PC's. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12684 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:56:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12643 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:55:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-225.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.225]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA22452; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:55:53 GMT Message-ID: <35549FB5.79501B0B@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:25:57 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Advocay: Pro Choice Tax! References: <199805091724.KAA11085@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I sent an e-mail to the DOJ AntiTrust Division (sorry, don't have the e-mail address but it's posted on the DOJ site. I received a personally signed letter back from John F. Greaney, the Chief of the "Computers and Finance" section. Mr. John F. Greaney, Chief Computers and Finance Division U.S. Department of Justice Antitrust Division Bicentennial Building 600 E Street, NW Washington, DC 20530 I would suggest that the "filing" dates for action have nothing to do with the "remedy" portion, and it's time to start writing _hard_copy_ letters to this gentleman and all of our Senators and Congressmen, as they will ultimately be the ones to decide the Microsoft case, much as the tobacco industry "settlement" is being superseded by legislation. M$ will seek to buy influence in Congress after finding out that DOJ can't be pressured. Please, no more taxes! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12701 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:56:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12649 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:55:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-225.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.225]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA17018; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:55:45 GMT Message-ID: <35549C03.B9EB1187@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:10:11 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Open Systems Networking , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? References: <17368.894690258@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just don't want us to stick head in sand, because we cannot keep cheap ISA-bus pentiums around forever. Have you gotten Intel's I2O API released yet? How about firewire drivers? Let me say here that I want to remain Intel-centric. What I'm saying is that we need to be aware of the rest of the world's development track so we don't get left behind. And yes, I AM trying to stay out of these "discussions" so I can learn to be a useful developer... ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12774 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:56:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12663 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:55:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-225.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.225]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA55244; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:55:56 GMT Message-ID: <3554A376.4024D742@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:41:58 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: NW+IOP Presentation References: <17402.894690734@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > And in what fashion would this questionaire attract broader attention > than the registration form we're already employing? I'm not saying > it's not possible to attract broader attention, I'm simply trying to > make the important point that the act of putting together a > questionaire is not in and of itself enough - it has to somehow be > sexy and alluring enough for the users to respond to it in significant > numbers. > > I've seen any number of FreeBSD user polls get utterly ignored by the > user base and even the registration form, which is about as > in-your-face as it's possible to get in the installation and still not > piss people off, has attracted just over 30K registrants in the year > it's been in operation. The registration data thus collected is also > valuable, don't get me wrong, but as these things generally go, 30K is > simply puny. When you can demonstrate 200K or more verified user > registrations in some special interest group, then the smaller > sections of the market begin to take notice of it. > My main complaint with the registration is that you can't do it until _after_ you've connected to the net, and for most newbie non-server users that means PPP. Jordan, sometimes your problem is that you know too much and you have experienced too much. 30,000, huh? Take a look at this month's Performance Computing. That's more than Solaris x86 did in all of 1997... I'm not saying this is easy, and I'm not saying we'll get everybody. I'm saying we have to do it! We need to show numbers to be noticed! As far as sexy, once we all agree on the questions, I'll do a MIME parser to sift the responses and a Web page you can add to FreeBSD.org to show what we're getting on a live basis. I will be glad to host it on my partsnow.com machine and you can link to me. I _do_ know how to write Perl, so this I am willing to do. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12814 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:56:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12681 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:56:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-225.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.225]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA75498 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:55:59 GMT Message-ID: <3554A40B.1CCAEDBD@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:44:27 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: chain letter proposal Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG To: All FreeBSD Users From: The FreeBSD Project “A Finger in the Wind” In order to compete in today’s competitive Operating Systems market, we need to be able to show large numbers of people using FreeBSD. We’d like you to answer this short questionnaire and also to copy it and forward it to everyone you know who is a FreeBSD user, especially those who are not connected to the Internet. If you have to, print it and distribute the hard copy! We will all benefit, since software vendors look at numbers when they decide what platforms to port to, and magazines write about systems people use. To the left of each question is a sequence like this: |00:[ ]. Please enter a number, like this: |00:[ 12 ] or |00[ +5 ]. Don’t worry about spaces, we’ll parse that. There are also five fields for alphanumeric comments. E-mail respondents, please put your answers between the vertical brackets like this |00:[ stability, power ]. When you’re done, send the reply to wetfinger@freebsd.org or to Wet Finger, c/o The FreeBSD Project, address, address address. Please do not submit multiple entries for the same machines or skew the results in any way. Get every user you know to fill it out, all over the world. We’d like honest numbers, and we’d like to hear from all of you. Thanks! ********************************************************************* |1:[ ] Do you use FreeBSD for [1] business [2] pleasure or [3] both? |2:[ ] How many years have you been using FreeBSD? |3:[ ] How many years have you been using computers? |4:[ ] What is your skill level in computing [1 low - 10 high]? |5:[ ] How many computers have you installed FreeBSD on? |6:[ ] How many operate primarily as network system servers? |7:[ ] How many operate primarily as webservers? |8:[ ] How many are used primarily for graphics / media production? |9:[ ] How many are primarily personal workstations? |10:[ ] List other purposes your FreeBSD systems serve, separated by commas. Print users only, use the blank space below. |11:[ ] Do you recommend FreeBSD to other users [+5 to -5]? |12:[ ] Why or why not? Top five reasons, separated by commas. |13:[ ] What would you most like to see improved in FreeBSD? |14:[ ] What commercial software would you most be willing to pay for to have it on FreeBSD? [Names or types] |15:[ ] What freeware project would you be most interested in participating in for developing new software? [0] none [1] Office Suite [2] Multimedia Content Development Applications [3] New and Improved Installation routines [sysinstall] [4] System Administration tools [GUI and non-GUI] [5] Better Documentation |16:[ ] If you want to participate in a development project, please enter your e-mail address here. Thank you very much! Please visit http://www.FreeBSD.org to see the growing numbers of fellow users and responses we have received. There’s lots going on at The FreeBSD Project, and we’d like you to know about it and participate. We all win! For those of you who are not familiar with American slang, “A Finger in the Wind” refers to the practice of wetting your finger and sticking it up in the air to determine the wind velocity and direction. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12828 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:56:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12769 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:56:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-225.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.225]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA75276; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:56:02 GMT Message-ID: <3554A4A4.7C6E84BA@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:47:00 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Andrew Short , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) References: <3553D19F.71EC2B70@ibm.net> <19980509141129.Q12200@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > zcat $1 | pic | tbl | eqn | groff -mandoc >$1.ps God, what gobbledygook. Thanks, Greg! :) --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12874 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:56:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12815 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:56:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-225.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.225]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA36390; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:56:06 GMT Message-ID: <3554A55D.63162F37@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:50:05 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Greg Lehey , Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) References: <17327.894689839@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > customer sentiment leans less toward seeing printed man pages and more > toward seeing the same space occupied by tutorials on setting up > utilities like apache and natd or setting up mailing lists and playing > with virtual mailertables in sendmail. > Yup, yup yup, all that -ports related stuff!!! Add Andreas' apsfilter and ghostscript to the list... --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 11:56:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12891 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:56:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12810 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 11:56:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-225.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.225]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA80194; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:56:11 GMT Message-ID: <3554A62B.D021463A@ibm.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 11:53:31 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) References: <19980509113722.Z12200@freebie.lemis.com> <17327.894689839@time.cdrom.com> <19980509144322.S12200@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG And I actually have all three versions. Keep the faith, Greg. You're doing a great job. :) --> Don actually, I'm more interested in the rsynch prgram you were going to improve Real Soon Now a few months ago :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 12:03:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13967 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:03:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13953 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:03:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA12248; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:03:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805091903.MAA12248@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Advocay: Pro Choice Tax! In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 11:25:57 PDT." <35549FB5.79501B0B@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 12:03:28 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Most cool start . We just have to turn up the heat up real quick before we miss our window of opportunity . I would love to see a Terry Lambert explanation of the implication of having a Microsoft Tax ,i.e., the coercion of having every major vendor being strong-armed to only include win95 . The reason why I am asking Terry directly is because he also loves to post so lets see that legendary posting skills of Terry put to a good humanitarian cause (Terry , there is no limit on the number of words for your letter so go nuts) Happy Protest! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 12:49:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18588 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:49:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (root@mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18560 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 12:49:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA20488 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:49:30 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 15:52:57 -0400 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 2:59 PM -0400 5/8/98, Open Systems Networking wrote: > This is just getting depressing :) > > http://www.wired.com/news/news/business/story/12187.html Given that you have the smiley there, I imagine you're not really all that depressed about it. And certainly I see no reason to be unhappy about it. I prefer FreeBSD over linux, but I'll go with any open-source operating system over being locked into some closed, proprietary system. If linux becomes huge and FreeBSD as a project loses "critical mass" to keep it going, we can all switch over to working on Linux and making it do the things we need to have it do. This is a good thing. The more companies go with the open-source idea, the easier it is to convince companies to try operating systems such as linux or freeBSD. When advocating freeBSD, we need to keep in mind why we want to advocate it, and not feel like we have to tear down alternate projects which have some of the same basic goals. I want to advocate *for* something, not against "everything else". --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 13:20:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24282 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:20:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24268 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:20:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA15904; Sat, 9 May 1998 13:20:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805092020.NAA15904@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Garance A Drosihn cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: *sigh* Anyone else see this article? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 15:52:57 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 13:20:31 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well said and it is nice that there are two main stream avenues for Open Sources. http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767 Brett is still fighting the good battle over there so please give him a hand I have as well as other FreeBSD folks . At the InfoWorld's forum the tide is turning into a more balance opinion so if you care for FreeBSD the InfoWorld's forum is a nice place to show your support. *************************************************************************** Be warn, in the future we may spot other forums to stage our FreeBSD agenda so don't get too comfortable by just going only to the InfoWorld forum. *************************************************************************** Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 14:12:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02250 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:12:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02153 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:12:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16120 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 14:12:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805092112.OAA16120@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Target: Corel Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 14:12:12 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This site offers a wonderful opportunity to support FreeBSD by way of asking for a FreeBSD port. http://www.corelcomputer.com I just send my request for a FreeBSD port by requesting more info click on: "I want more info" Showing your support for FreeBSD has never been easier!! P.S:. I bought wordperfct a little while ago just to show my support now I want a FreeBSD port of wordperfect and of netwinder 8) Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 15:35:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10178 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:35:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10162 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:35:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id PAA12809; Sat, 9 May 1998 15:35:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 15:35:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Remy NONNENMACHER cc: adrian@virginia.edu, adrian@nvl.virginia.edu, garbanzo@hooked.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS.. In-Reply-To: <9805090200.aa12992@s3.synx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG BTW, HP is making HP-UX for 64bit upcoming chip Intel is working on. So is Solaris. Wonder if FreeBSD will need to be ported also. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." Linux == DOS of the Unix world. On Sat, 9 May 1998, Remy NONNENMACHER wrote: >On 8 May, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: >> On Thu, 7 May 1998, Alex wrote: >> >>> http://www.ci.infobeads.com/INSIDER/PAGES/TOPICS/INTERNET/ISP_HW_0505/Default.asp >>> >>> Hrm, and FreeBSD was nowhere to be found. Interesting. >> >> Very unbelievable that FreeBSD doesn't even come up with 5.7% like >> HP does. I smell a rat, or at least poor statistical practice. >> >> Does it say anywhere that they allowed vendors to "opt in" to the >> survey? If so, then it is worthless. >> > >Countless incoherencies ; > >HP machines: 3%, HP-UX: 5.7% !! > >Since when does HP-UX runs somewhere else than under HP computers ? > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 17:46:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22319 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 17:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22302; Sat, 9 May 1998 17:46:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial1-8.cybercom.net [209.21.137.8]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA12852; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:51:50 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:29:49 -0400 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There's an interesting bit of reading about Mark Andreesen's views on Netscape's ties to Linux at http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980402S0013. One of the more interesting paragraphs is: ----> Andreessen outlined a scenario in which Mozilla, as the Communicator code is called, becomes the GUI that runs on top of a Linux operating system. Netscape is taking steps to make this a reality, including making Linux a "total reference" platform just like Win 32 and Macintosh, and will develop all its products to work with the Linux. Third-party developers have already compiled the Communicator code for Linux. <---- If Netscape really is considering expanding the reference list, is there any way that we can get in on it? K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 18:21:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25661 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:21:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25655 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:20:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id SAA54202; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:20:56 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id SAA10873; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 18:19:33 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Don Wilde cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal In-Reply-To: <3554A40B.1CCAEDBD@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 9 May 1998, Don Wilde wrote: - a proposed email survey ** snip Another fellow from UW and I are conspiring to produce a survey in html in the same vein as this chain letter. Let us finish out this quarter in school and we will have it served shortly thereafter. This will serve the purpose that you intend. If you want to get it things done faster let's talk html/perl. I would be glad to include your questions in the survey. If you recall, I requested these sorts of questions from folks on this forum a while ago. Once you let a chain letter out of the bag it will _NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER_ (stated most emphatically) go back in the bag. You absolutely cannot control this once it starts to circulate. I must be completely honest. I really despice these sorts of (expletive deleted) things. As well intentioned as they may be, as much as you try to explain how important your cause is, as much as you try to target your audience, they are still SPAM once they get in the wild. I read Mr. Wilde's reply about my SPAM question. I still think this is SPAM. Please understand that there might not be a reconciliation of your views and mine. I do not intend disrespect but I must speak my convictions. If we must, let us agree to disagree. The internet is plagued by chain letters of all varieties. I think it is a bad idea to let the respected FreeBSD name be associated with a chain letter. Imagine FreeBSD getting its very own entry on the CIAC chain letters site. ::ugggh:: Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 18:23:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26008 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:23:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA25979; Sat, 9 May 1998 18:23:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA11068; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:27:54 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199805100127.LAA11068@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> from The Classiest Man Alive at "May 9, 98 07:29:49 pm" To: ksmm@threespace.com (The Classiest Man Alive) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:27:53 +1000 (EST) Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > If Netscape really is considering expanding the reference list, is there > any way that we can get in on it? Jamie Zawinski from Mozilla.org expressed the view that there is no Linux or FreeBSD port of mozilla, just a Unix port. And the the term "reference platform" means that all mozilla features are available on the Unix port, then that includes FreeBSD. -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:19:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00877 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:19:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xcf.berkeley.edu (scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA00870 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:19:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nordwick@xcf.berkeley.edu) Received: (qmail 11548 invoked by uid 27268); 10 May 1998 02:21:04 -0000 Date: 10 May 1998 02:21:04 -0000 Message-ID: <19980510022104.11547.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu> From: Jason Nordwick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: The Classiest Man Alive Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: ksmm@threespace.com on 5/9/1998 to advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> References: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The Classiest Man Alive, on Sat 5/9/1998, wrote the following: > > There's an interesting bit of reading about Mark Andreesen's views on > Netscape's ties to Linux at > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980402S0013. One of the more > interesting paragraphs is: > > ----> > Andreessen outlined a scenario in which Mozilla, as the Communicator code is > called, becomes the GUI that runs on top of a Linux operating system. > Netscape is taking steps to make this a reality, including making Linux a > "total reference" platform just like Win 32 and Macintosh, and will develop > all its products to work with the Linux. Third-party developers have already > compiled the Communicator code for Linux. > <---- > > If Netscape really is considering expanding the reference list, is there > any way that we can get in on it? > > > K.S. > Porbably not, I dont get the feeling that Netscape is doing this for The Right Reasons, but just more for Market positioning. I have given up on them and most of the new Open Source companies. They are not supporting Open Source software, but are using the "new" idea to get their name out and sell their product. You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all grownup here. Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:30:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02199 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:30:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02158; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:30:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00766; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805100230.TAA00766@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jason Nordwick cc: The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "10 May 1998 02:21:04 -0000." <19980510022104.11547.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:30:12 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Try to go out with a bang so if you read linux as reference make it a point to also include FreeBSD as a viable Open OS Platform and if you get caught in a stupid linux flame fest you can always ask us for support by posting on this mailing list. Enjoy, Amancio > > The Classiest Man Alive, on Sat 5/9/1998, wrote the following: > > > > There's an interesting bit of reading about Mark Andreesen's views on > > Netscape's ties to Linux at > > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980402S0013. One of the more > > interesting paragraphs is: > > > > ----> > > Andreessen outlined a scenario in which Mozilla, as the Communicator code is > > called, becomes the GUI that runs on top of a Linux operating system. > > Netscape is taking steps to make this a reality, including making Linux a > > "total reference" platform just like Win 32 and Macintosh, and will develop > > all its products to work with the Linux. Third-party developers have already > > compiled the Communicator code for Linux. > > <---- > > > > If Netscape really is considering expanding the reference list, is there > > any way that we can get in on it? > > > > > > K.S. > > > > Porbably not, I dont get the feeling that Netscape is doing this > for The Right Reasons, but just more for Market positioning. I > have given up on them and most of the new Open Source companies. > They are not supporting Open Source software, but are using the > "new" idea to get their name out and sell their product. > > You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is > giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or > Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all > grownup here. > > Jay > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:34:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02645 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:34:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02636 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:34:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA13368; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805100232.TAA13368@implode.root.com> To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 11:44:27 PDT." <3554A40B.1CCAEDBD@ibm.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:32:37 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >To: All FreeBSD Users From: The FreeBSD Project > “A Finger in the Wind” >In order to compete in today’s competitive Operating Systems market, we >need to be able to show large numbers of people using FreeBSD. We’d like >you to answer this short questionnaire and also to copy it and forward If you really want this to succeed, then you should make a WWW page out of the questionaire and ask people to press the buttons. I think it's far too inconvenient for most people to mess around with email questionairs like this. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:39:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02935 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:39:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xcf.berkeley.edu (scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.43.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA02930 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:39:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nordwick@xcf.berkeley.edu) Received: (qmail 11774 invoked by uid 27268); 10 May 1998 02:40:57 -0000 Date: 10 May 1998 02:40:57 -0000 Message-ID: <19980510024057.11773.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu> From: Jason Nordwick MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: Amancio Hasty Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com on 5/9/1998 to nordwick@scam.XCF.Berkeley.EDU, ksmm@threespace.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG <199805100230.TAA00766@rah.star-gate.com> References: <19980510022104.11547.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu> <199805100230.TAA00766@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.32 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amancio Hasty, on Sat 5/9/1998, wrote the following: > > Try to go out with a bang so if you read linux as reference make it > a point to also include FreeBSD as a viable Open OS Platform and if > you get caught in a stupid linux flame fest you can always ask us > for support by posting on this mailing list. > > Enjoy, > Amancio > > Thanks for the support, but I dont think that anybody is going to see FreeBSD on their radar for a few more years, I think. People are too caught up in Linux and the hype. I started submitting articles to http://slashdot.org that mention FreeBSD, to see if we can find any help from the Linux users, mellow them out a little, and maybe stop the foaming at the mouth :) 4.4 > 2.0.103.3543.23b patch-level 65 w/ libc 2.0.39.4312 Mega Distribution jay -- 4.4 > 95 http://xcf.berkeley.edu/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:47:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03529 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:47:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03520 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:47:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA03844; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:17:17 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980510121717.F12200@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:17:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: dg@root.com, dwilde1@ibm.net Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal References: <3554A40B.1CCAEDBD@ibm.net> <199805100232.TAA13368@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805100232.TAA13368@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Sat, May 09, 1998 at 07:32:37PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 9 May 1998 at 19:32:37 -0700, David Greenman wrote: >> To: All FreeBSD Users From: The FreeBSD Project >> “A Finger in the Wind” >> In order to compete in today’s competitive Operating Systems market, we >> need to be able to show large numbers of people using FreeBSD. We’d like >> you to answer this short questionnaire and also to copy it and forward > > If you really want this to succeed, then you should make a WWW page out > of the questionaire and ask people to press the buttons. I think it's far > too inconvenient for most people to mess around with email questionairs like > this. I thought this, too, at first, but then it seemed that I would need to do a lot more to get to the web page. Most people don't use mailers that automatically transfer to a browser and the correct URL. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:50:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03769 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03691 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:49:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA13667; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:48:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805100248.TAA13667@implode.root.com> To: Greg Lehey cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 12:17:17 +0930." <19980510121717.F12200@freebie.lemis.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:48:10 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >On Sat, 9 May 1998 at 19:32:37 -0700, David Greenman wrote: >>> To: All FreeBSD Users From: The FreeBSD Project >>> “A Finger in the Wind” >>> In order to compete in today’s competitive Operating Systems market, we >>> need to be able to show large numbers of people using FreeBSD. We’d like >>> you to answer this short questionnaire and also to copy it and forward >> >> If you really want this to succeed, then you should make a WWW page out >> of the questionaire and ask people to press the buttons. I think it's far >> too inconvenient for most people to mess around with email questionairs like >> this. > >I thought this, too, at first, but then it seemed that I would need to >do a lot more to get to the web page. Most people don't use mailers >that automatically transfer to a browser and the correct URL. I cut and paste the URL. Perhaps both forms should be provided. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 19:52:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03965 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:52:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA03953 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:52:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00956; Sat, 9 May 1998 19:52:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805100252.TAA00956@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jason Nordwick cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "10 May 1998 02:40:57 -0000." <19980510024057.11773.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:52:06 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG All the more reason to post . Like I said lets go out with a bang and we don't have to rag on linux to do it just ask for FreeBSD to be considered as a viable alternative OS. All Is Not Lost, Amancio > > Amancio Hasty, on Sat 5/9/1998, wrote the following: > > > > Try to go out with a bang so if you read linux as reference make it > > a point to also include FreeBSD as a viable Open OS Platform and if > > you get caught in a stupid linux flame fest you can always ask us > > for support by posting on this mailing list. > > > > Enjoy, > > Amancio > > > > > > Thanks for the support, but I dont think that anybody is going to > see FreeBSD on their radar for a few more years, I think. People > are too caught up in Linux and the hype. I started submitting > articles to http://slashdot.org that mention FreeBSD, to see if > we can find any help from the Linux users, mellow them out a little, > and maybe stop the foaming at the mouth :) > > 4.4 > 2.0.103.3543.23b patch-level 65 w/ libc 2.0.39.4312 Mega Distribution > > jay > -- > 4.4 > 95 > http://xcf.berkeley.edu/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 20:06:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04653 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA04629; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:06:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id XAA01325; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:00:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 23:05:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Jason Nordwick cc: The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <19980510022104.11547.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 10 May 1998, Jason Nordwick wrote: > Porbably not, I dont get the feeling that Netscape is doing this > for The Right Reasons, but just more for Market positioning. I > have given up on them and most of the new Open Source companies. > They are not supporting Open Source software, but are using the > "new" idea to get their name out and sell their product. > > You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is > giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or > Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all > grownup here. I have posted this same belief myself twice now, and have been told twice 1) we have friends at netscape. 2) Jamie says they want a "UNIX" version NOT a linux version or FreeBSD version. So each time i'm told this not a few days later another PRO-Linux article comes out from mozilla's website or andreesen himself is quoted publicly stating netscapes main goal is linux. No one has a straight story, it keeps changing, they say one thing and then a few weeks later say the opposite. Ill just run the mozilla we have, and if that dies a horrid death ill just run the linux binary. It isn't a huge deal to me anymore, you have to learn to pick your fights, and this isn't mine. I would much rather work on increasing our server share. And thats what im doing. I have found something here in the pit of hell[1] that actually sells. Little 486's configured for dial-on-demand, with a 500MB-1GB Squid cache for small offices. I include a small el cheapo hub and a pack of NE2000 nic cards, and people are ditching their cable modems at their office :) Another 40K of these and I can retire! [1] If you have ever wondered where sinners go after death, they dont go to hell they go to kansas. Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 20:19:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05489 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:19:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05464; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:19:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA01820; Sat, 9 May 1998 22:19:15 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 22:19:15 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 9 May 1998, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > ----> > Andreessen outlined a scenario in which Mozilla, as the Communicator code is > called, becomes the GUI that runs on top of a Linux operating system. > Netscape is taking steps to make this a reality, including making Linux a > "total reference" platform just like Win 32 and Macintosh, and will develop > all its products to work with the Linux. Third-party developers have already > compiled the Communicator code for Linux. > <---- Hm, where have I heard this before? 'The Web browser is an integral part of the OS; you can't take it out...' I can't imagine he's actually taking that tack. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 20:31:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA06452 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:31:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA06442 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 16713 invoked by uid 24); 10 May 1998 03:31:12 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980509203237.007d8530@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 20:32:37 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: chain letter proposal Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980510121717.F12200@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199805100232.TAA13368@implode.root.com> <3554A40B.1CCAEDBD@ibm.net> <199805100232.TAA13368@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:17 PM 5/10/98 +0930, you wrote: >On Sat, 9 May 1998 at 19:32:37 -0700, David Greenman wrote: >> If you really want this to succeed, then you should make a WWW page out >> of the questionaire and ask people to press the buttons. I think it's far >> too inconvenient for most people to mess around with email questionairs like >> this. > >I thought this, too, at first, but then it seemed that I would need to >do a lot more to get to the web page. Most people don't use mailers >that automatically transfer to a browser and the correct URL. Don't send the HTML form itself to people, just send a URL *to* the form. Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- pure chewing satisfaction brian@apache.org brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 20:35:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA07101 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:35:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07082; Sat, 9 May 1998 20:35:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from atlanta (mfd-dial1-8.cybercom.net [209.21.137.8]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA13121; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:40:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199805100340.XAA13121@zephyr.cybercom.net> X-Sender: ksmm@cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 23:36:40 -0400 To: John Birrell From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199805100127.LAA11068@cimlogic.com.au> References: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:27 PM 5/9/98 , you wrote: >Jamie Zawinski from Mozilla.org expressed the view that there is no Linux >or FreeBSD port of mozilla, just a Unix port. And the the term "reference >platform" means that all mozilla features are available on the Unix port, >then that includes FreeBSD. Then I wish somebody would drop the word over to Marc. His name dropping and posing for pictures with Tux aren't doing anything to help the UNIX community on the whole. The technical playing field may actually be more level, but we can't afford to ignore the ugly implications of these statements from a marketing perspective. K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 22:11:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14931 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 22:11:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14902; Sat, 9 May 1998 22:11:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00309; Sat, 9 May 1998 22:11:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805100511.WAA00309@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: John Birrell , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 23:36:40 EDT." <199805100340.XAA13121@zephyr.cybercom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 22:11:05 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG To Netscape , Food for Thought: I don't see anyone bitching about NCI's choice of NetBSD (NC Clients) and FreeBSD (NC Server) nor Yahoo's choice of FreeBSD servers. So please elevate FreeBSD to the same status as Linux. Someone can post or e-mail to Marc the above. Thank You, Amancio I don't see the BSD camps > At 09:27 PM 5/9/98 , you wrote: > >Jamie Zawinski from Mozilla.org expressed the view that there is no Linux > >or FreeBSD port of mozilla, just a Unix port. And the the term "reference > >platform" means that all mozilla features are available on the Unix port, > >then that includes FreeBSD. > > > Then I wish somebody would drop the word over to Marc. His name dropping > and posing for pictures with Tux aren't doing anything to help the UNIX > community on the whole. > > The technical playing field may actually be more level, but we can't afford > to ignore the ugly implications of these statements from a marketing > perspective. > > K.S. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 9 23:55:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24051 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:55:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24037 for ; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:55:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24126; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:53:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: Remy NONNENMACHER , adrian@virginia.edu, adrian@nvl.virginia.edu, garbanzo@hooked.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 15:35:03 PDT." Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 23:53:52 -0700 Message-ID: <24122.894783232@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > BTW, HP is making HP-UX for 64bit upcoming chip Intel is working > on. So is Solaris. Wonder if FreeBSD will need to be ported also. This question is only coming up for you _now_? [looks around for the rock which Yan has obviously been hiding under] :-) Yes, it will naturally need to be ported. If you read any of the press announcements that Intel has released on this thing over the last year or so, you'll see that it is not planned to be ABI compliant with the x86 architecture and OS vendors will need to port to it. In FreeBSD's case, that's unlikely to even begin until I64 parts are made more or less widely available to our developers and I don't see that happening anytime soon. We'll just have to wait and see how the market develops. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message