From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 00:04:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA25638 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:04:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24536 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:00:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24160; Sat, 9 May 1998 23:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 19:29:49 EDT." <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 23:58:21 -0700 Message-ID: <24156.894783501@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [restricted to just advocacy] > There's an interesting bit of reading about Mark Andreesen's views on > Netscape's ties to Linux at > http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980402S0013. One of the more > interesting paragraphs is: Um, this is _really_ old news. :-) It's also a topic which has already been discussed to death in these lists and various efforts have long since been set in motion to try and get ourselves more aligned with Netscape. We'll just have to let the results (or lack thereof) speak for the success of those efforts. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 00:19:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA27186 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:19:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA27181 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:19:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24224; Sun, 10 May 1998 00:17:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: John Birrell , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 23:36:40 EDT." <199805100340.XAA13121@zephyr.cybercom.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 00:17:57 -0700 Message-ID: <24220.894784677@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Then I wish somebody would drop the word over to Marc. His name dropping > and posing for pictures with Tux aren't doing anything to help the UNIX > community on the whole. Look, geeze, different people are Netscape are going to express different opinions about this at different times - there's simply nothing approaching consensus over there WRT free Unixen and it'd be unreasonable to expect various people at Netscape, including Marc himself, to refrain from developing personal preferences. Maybe Linux just gives Marc a woody, or perhaps the Linux users group was simply *the first and only free os group to ask him*, who knows? Knowing how often we generally fail to take concrete initiative in situations like this one, it wouldn't surprise me a bit to hear that Marc jumped on the Linux bandwagon simply because he needed someone in the free software camp to blow the bugles with and the Linux folks weren't too shy to offer him a forum for doing so. In any case, this all segues nicely into an opportunity to air a pet peeve of mine here, one which I hope that K.S. won't take as a personal jab so much as a general statement of fact, and that's that we waste TOO MUCH BLOODY TIME on the pointless exercise of jumping up and down like a bunch of old ladies who've just seen a naked man ("Oooh! Wouldya look at that!") every time some new Linux article comes out or somebody says something nasty about FreeBSD in a public forum. I'm all for playing a reasonable defensive strategy, don't get me wrong, but there also comes a point where you're just spending too damn much time reacting to your opponents moves and are not really engaged in formulating your own strategy. Going "Oooh!" every time a Linux article comes out is not a strategy, it's just a reaction, and it was rather my hope that we'd be using the -advocacy forum more for formulating strategies than in collectively going "Oooh!" - you get my meaning here? :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 01:42:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02770 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:42:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02762; Sun, 10 May 1998 01:42:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA16237; Sun, 10 May 1998 02:39:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805100839.CAA16237@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 02:39:35 -0600 To: Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980510022104.11547.qmail@xcf.berkeley.edu> References: <199805100051.UAA12852@zephyr.cybercom.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:21 AM 5/10/98 +0000, Jason Nordwick wrote: >You'll probably just get the same B.S. that everybody else is >giving: they don't want to get involve in any BSD vs. BSD or >Linux vs. BSD things, which is just blatanly wrong, we are all >grownup here. Well, in a sense, it's true. They DON'T want to get involved in any "Linux vs. BSD things." They want to pick the best seller, just as they did with Windows, and support it -- whether or not it is the best choice. FreeBSD has about a year to achieve near-parity with Linux or it may be in trouble because of this pattern of behavior. Think it can be done? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 02:15:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA05156 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 02:15:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gratis.grondar.za (gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA05148 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 02:15:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from greenpeace.grondar.za (root@greenpeace.grondar.za [196.7.18.132]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05181; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:15:15 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (mark@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by greenpeace.grondar.za (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA02183; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:14:58 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <199805100914.LAA02183@greenpeace.grondar.za> To: dg@root.com cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:14:56 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Greenman wrote: > >To: All FreeBSD Users From: The FreeBSD Project > > “A Finger in the Wind” > >In order to compete in today’s competitive Operating Systems market, we > >need to be able to show large numbers of people using FreeBSD. We’d like > >you to answer this short questionnaire and also to copy it and forward > > If you really want this to succeed, then you should make a WWW page out > of the questionaire and ask people to press the buttons. I think it's far > too inconvenient for most people to mess around with email questionairs like > this. ... apart from the fact that many ISP's ban any form of chain letter. M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 02:25:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA06145 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 02:25:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (csnet.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA06125 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 02:24:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.csa (csd [132.68.32.8]) by csnet.cs.technion.ac.il (8.6.11/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA06686; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:23:53 +0300 Received: from localhost by csd.csa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA21352; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:24:21 +0300 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:24:21 +0300 (IDT) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Don Wilde cc: Greg Lehey , Andrew Short , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <3554A4A4.7C6E84BA@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 9 May 1998, Don Wilde wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > zcat $1 | pic | tbl | eqn | groff -mandoc >$1.ps Or, if you want to save some typing: man -t $1 > $1.ps > > God, what gobbledygook. Thanks, Greg! :) > > --> Don > > > Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 03:59:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13122 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 03:59:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA13103; Sun, 10 May 1998 03:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA01506; Sun, 10 May 1998 03:59:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805101059.DAA01506@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 02:39:35 MDT." <199805100839.CAA16237@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 03:59:19 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The challenge is to change the sleeper type attitude on this group with respect to marketing and to get advocacy type messages out on the world . For example, we *really* need to change http://www.freebsd.org to convey a feeling of activity and success around FreeBSD. I posted a simple request for someone to volunteer to revamp the web page and got ZERO response. Why is that? Is it because the group is lazy when it comes to promoting FreeBSD , the group does not understand the importance of demonstrating the capability and success of FreeBSD, or we don't have any web developers? I sincerely believe that the answer to my question is (a) we are lazy when it comes to promoting FreeBSD. Now, if this was a Linux forum , I bet we would have had by now several dozen volunteers for the task . I believe thats the biggest difference between FreeBSD and Linux . Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 05:07:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA18041 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 05:07:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA18035 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 05:07:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA24960; Sun, 10 May 1998 05:06:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Amancio Hasty cc: Brett Glass , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 03:59:19 PDT." <199805101059.DAA01506@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 05:06:17 -0700 Message-ID: <24956.894801977@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > For example, we *really* need to change http://www.freebsd.org > to convey a feeling of activity and success around FreeBSD. I posted > a simple request for someone to volunteer to revamp the web page and > got ZERO response. Why is that? Is it because the group is lazy when Argh... I'd think this would be one of those self-answering questions, especially for someone who's been around as long as Amancio has, but let me answer it anyway. Amancio might wonder why he got ZERO response but the answer is really pretty obvious: Simply stating that XYZ needs to be done, where XYZ is not something which requires a "mission statement" so much as someone to simply buckle down and do the drudge work, is almost *always* a fruitless exercise and essentially amounts to nothing more than hand-waving. If you want to actually ACCOMPLISH something, you've got to lead by example and can't simply stand around tossing off polished sound bites like "FreeBSD needs more books!" since that sort of thing is bloody obvious to everyone by now. It's equally clear that what needs to happen at this stage is for someone to actually _write_ the books or sit down and actually _make_ the web pages somehow, to put it in your own words, "convey a feeling of activity and success around FreeBSD." That's a lot harder to do correctly than it sounds, especiall for programming geeks who don't excell at marketing, or it would likely have been done already. Given these simple facts, what would have been a far more effective thing for Amancio to originally have said would have been something to the effect of: "We *really need to change http://www.freebsd.org to convey blah blah and blah, the diffs below representing my first attempt at grappling with this rather difficult marketing problem. Please give me feedback on the wording of this and I'll submit the final version of what we come up with to the docs folks and/or commit it to the web pages myself." It still might not have been enough to make it all come together, that is true, but it would have been an approach with a _far_ greater chance of success. To put it another way, you can either try to push from behind or lead (by example) from the front. If you try to push from behind, many FreeBSD folks will simply dig their heels in like mules and say "don't push me, damn it, why don't YOU do it if you want it so much!" If you lead from the front, on the other hand, then even if nobody follows you you're still going to accomplish _something_ (rather than "ZERO") and odds are good that someone will eventually take pity on the lone volunteer out there shoveling snow while everyone else is inside drinking hot cocoa and will come out to help. There's also no better way for a "leader" to establish his bonafides around here than to show that he's willing to do someone whether anyone helps him or not. That's why I've been sort of been deliberately playing the devil's advocate here in the -advocacy list about some of our more blue-sky ideas. It's not that I'm trying to quash people's enthusiasm so much as simply _channel_ it into more tangible and practical pursuits given that I know, from ample personal experience, that PR is one of those strange areas of the biz where it's quite possible to look busy as hell and still accomplish absolutely nothing of practical value. To avoid that latter scenario, we need to try and avoid getting caught up in feedback loops where everyone's spending a lot of time talking about what needs to be done and not enough time involved in the rather more boring mechanics of actually doing it. And on that note, I think I'll go back to work on my updated document for staying -current (and -stable) with FreeBSD now. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 07:05:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25863 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:05:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA25858 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:05:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA06433; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:04:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) cc: Amancio Hasty , Brett Glass , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 05:06:17 PDT." <24956.894801977@time.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 07:04:17 -0700 Message-ID: <6429.894809057@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > drinking hot cocoa and will come out to help. There's also no better > way for a "leader" to establish his bonafides around here than to show > that he's willing to do someone whether anyone helps him or not. ^^^ thing Erm. I suppose it might also impress folks if the leader were willing to "do someone", but that's not quite what I meant to say here. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 07:11:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA26313 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:11:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA26304 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA17717; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:10:53 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:10:53 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <6429.894809057@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 10 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > drinking hot cocoa and will come out to help. There's also no better > > way for a "leader" to establish his bonafides around here than to show > > that he's willing to do someone whether anyone helps him or not. > ^^^ thing > > Erm. I suppose it might also impress folks if the leader were willing > to "do someone", but that's not quite what I meant to say here. :) Awright! I knew FreeBSD would get me chicks! Where do I sign up? He... need... coffee... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 07:57:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29373 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:57:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA29368 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:57:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-121-158.ca.us.ibm.net [166.72.121.158]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA26374 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:57:19 GMT Message-ID: <3555AF21.909EFEC@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 06:44:01 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal References: <3554A40B.1CCAEDBD@ibm.net> <199805100232.TAA13368@implode.root.com> <19980510121717.F12200@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey wrote: > I thought this, too, at first, but then it seemed that I would need to > do a lot more to get to the web page. Most people don't use mailers > that automatically transfer to a browser and the correct URL. I think we need both. The e-mail questionnaire can be printed, as well. As I said before, the registration dialogue is vulnerable because nobody has connectivity when they get to it, and once you've installed FreeBSD there's too much else to be done to be bothered to go back and register. I will be glad to work up a page, a data structure and a mail sifter. Does anybody have more questions that need to be asked? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 07:57:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29417 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:57:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA29378 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:57:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-121-158.ca.us.ibm.net [166.72.121.158]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA60202; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:57:22 GMT Message-ID: <3555B08F.2DFD549E@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 06:50:08 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Behlendorf CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal References: <199805100232.TAA13368@implode.root.com> <3554A40B.1CCAEDBD@ibm.net> <199805100232.TAA13368@implode.root.com> <3.0.3.32.19980509203237.007d8530@hyperreal.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Behlendorf wrote: > >do a lot more to get to the web page. Most people don't use mailers > >that automatically transfer to a browser and the correct URL. > > Don't send the HTML form itself to people, just send a URL *to* the form. > brian@hyperreal.org I'm sure by the time they get this, whether they use Netscape or whatever mail/browser system, they've figured out what to do with either/any/all of the above. All right, we need: 1) Data structure with db engine 2) Web Form with CGI tied to database engine 3) E-Mail Form (printable) with MIME sifter 4) A host with links to www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 07:57:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29488 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:57:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA29481 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:57:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-121-158.ca.us.ibm.net [166.72.121.158]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA45002; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:57:35 GMT Message-ID: <3555B66C.29EDE0A5@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 07:15:08 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform References: <24220.894784677@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > it was rather my hope that we'd be using the -advocacy forum more for > formulating strategies than in collectively going "Oooh!" - you get my > meaning here? :-) > Hear, hear! Let's all get back to work on code and let our computers do the talking! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 07:58:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29611 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:58:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA29605 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 07:58:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-121-158.ca.us.ibm.net [166.72.121.158]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA44882; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:57:26 GMT Message-ID: <3555B16A.EB1E288D@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 06:53:46 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Murray CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal References: <199805100914.LAA02183@greenpeace.grondar.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > ... apart from the fact that many ISP's ban any form of chain letter. > I'll modify the text to be more specific in intent. Obviously, we don't want this broadcast because once the hordes from The Other Side were to get it, I'd be mailbombed with '-500' letters. I don't want it _posted_ anywhere but freebsd-questions. Where it goes from there I would hope would be friend to friend. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 09:31:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06529 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:31:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06522 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:31:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id JAA14608; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:31:25 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id JAA31399; Sun, 10 May 1998 09:31:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 09:30:09 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal In-Reply-To: <3555B08F.2DFD549E@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Haven't enough people including David Greenman and Jordan Hubbard expressed reservations about using email to do this? Once you let this thing go it will circulate the net until the end of time. I have already said my spiel. Others seemed to hold the same opinion that I do. Still, it seems that the email survey is going forward. Don't do it. It is a bad idea. We can collection information without using email. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 10:39:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13770 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:39:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA13760 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:39:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id KAA20816; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:39:29 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id KAA19283; Sun, 10 May 1998 10:39:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:38:13 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <24220.894784677@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 10 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >In any case, this all segues nicely into an opportunity to air a pet >peeve of mine here, one which I hope that K.S. won't take as a >personal jab so much as a general statement of fact, and that's that >we waste TOO MUCH BLOODY TIME on the pointless exercise of jumping up >and down like a bunch of old ladies who've just seen a naked man >("Oooh! Wouldya look at that!") every time some new Linux article >comes out or somebody says something nasty about FreeBSD in a public >forum. I too think that this is the case. I thank Jordan for saying this publicly. Look at the subject headers for the first month of this list. Linux this. Linux that. Linux the other thing. MS this blah blah blah. Linux Brawl... One would think that FreeBSD lacks a purpose aside from existing as a wheat farming brother who is jealous of his brother who raises sheep. (Ref: Cain and Able) The point is: lets do what we do, and not worry so much what our brother is doing. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 11:21:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18060 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:21:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18048 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:21:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from ale (pm3g-39.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.88]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA03437; Sun, 10 May 1998 11:20:33 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19980510111803.006a0f5c@pacificnet.net> X-Sender: bear@pacificnet.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:18:03 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Amancio Hasty From: Joey Garcia Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform Cc: Brett Glass , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <24956.894801977@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05:06 AM 5/10/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Amancio might wonder why he got ZERO response but the answer is really >pretty obvious: Simply stating that XYZ needs to be done, where XYZ is >not something which requires a "mission statement" so much as someone >to simply buckle down and do the drudge work, is almost *always* a >fruitless exercise and essentially amounts to nothing more than >hand-waving. Okay, "Do the drudge work", eh? Well, I have some web space on my ISP's server that I don't use. They allow CGI programs, and other stuff too. I can donate my space if that would help. It's only 5 megs though. If someone has any ideas on how to utilize this for the purpose of FreeBSD information and promotion, then just let me know maybe we can work together and we can set something up on it. Maybe, more user pages would be a neat thing, because it would show that there are more users. Just trying to help. Joey Bear Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 12:12:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25581 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25572 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:12:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03002; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:12:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805101912.MAA03002@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Brett Glass , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 05:06:17 PDT." <24956.894801977@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:12:10 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Yes, it is a self-answering question and I was hoping that I was missing something and to my regret I am not missing anything. The group is lazy and it is not pro-active when it comes to promoting FreeBSD and as you have stated in the the advocacy mailing the group is reacting . I wish to change the culture in this group to be a little bit more pro-active and creative when it comes to promoting FreeBSD. JKH, model of getting things done is well stated and has served us well in the development stage of the FreeBSD project. Closing remarks, as JKH also stated in the past we do need a marketing person or group -- so where are the marketing types ? Yes, I know that they are hiding can one or two in the marketing category please step forward and help our cause? Amancio > > For example, we *really* need to change http://www.freebsd.org > > to convey a feeling of activity and success around FreeBSD. I posted > > a simple request for someone to volunteer to revamp the web page and > > got ZERO response. Why is that? Is it because the group is lazy when > > Argh... I'd think this would be one of those self-answering questions, > especially for someone who's been around as long as Amancio has, but > let me answer it anyway. > > Amancio might wonder why he got ZERO response but the answer is really > pretty obvious: Simply stating that XYZ needs to be done, where XYZ is > not something which requires a "mission statement" so much as someone > to simply buckle down and do the drudge work, is almost *always* a > fruitless exercise and essentially amounts to nothing more than > hand-waving. If you want to actually ACCOMPLISH something, you've got > to lead by example and can't simply stand around tossing off polished > sound bites like "FreeBSD needs more books!" since that sort of thing > is bloody obvious to everyone by now. It's equally clear that what > needs to happen at this stage is for someone to actually _write_ the > books or sit down and actually _make_ the web pages somehow, to put it > in your own words, "convey a feeling of activity and success around > FreeBSD." That's a lot harder to do correctly than it sounds, > especiall for programming geeks who don't excell at marketing, or it > would likely have been done already. > > Given these simple facts, what would have been a far more effective > thing for Amancio to originally have said would have been something to > the effect of: "We *really need to change http://www.freebsd.org to > convey blah blah and blah, the diffs below representing my first > attempt at grappling with this rather difficult marketing problem. > Please give me feedback on the wording of this and I'll submit the > final version of what we come up with to the docs folks and/or commit > it to the web pages myself." It still might not have been enough to > make it all come together, that is true, but it would have been an > approach with a _far_ greater chance of success. > > To put it another way, you can either try to push from behind or lead > (by example) from the front. If you try to push from behind, many > FreeBSD folks will simply dig their heels in like mules and say "don't > push me, damn it, why don't YOU do it if you want it so much!" If you > lead from the front, on the other hand, then even if nobody follows > you you're still going to accomplish _something_ (rather than "ZERO") > and odds are good that someone will eventually take pity on the lone > volunteer out there shoveling snow while everyone else is inside > drinking hot cocoa and will come out to help. There's also no better > way for a "leader" to establish his bonafides around here than to show > that he's willing to do someone whether anyone helps him or not. > > That's why I've been sort of been deliberately playing the devil's > advocate here in the -advocacy list about some of our more blue-sky > ideas. It's not that I'm trying to quash people's enthusiasm so much > as simply _channel_ it into more tangible and practical pursuits given > that I know, from ample personal experience, that PR is one of those > strange areas of the biz where it's quite possible to look busy as > hell and still accomplish absolutely nothing of practical value. To > avoid that latter scenario, we need to try and avoid getting caught up > in feedback loops where everyone's spending a lot of time talking > about what needs to be done and not enough time involved in the rather > more boring mechanics of actually doing it. > > And on that note, I think I'll go back to work on my updated document > for staying -current (and -stable) with FreeBSD now. :-) > > - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 12:46:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01596 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01575 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:46:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from mustang (pm3h-14.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.111]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA15452; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:45:37 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:42:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@mustang To: Amancio Hasty cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <199805101912.MAA03002@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 10 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Closing remarks, as JKH also stated in the past we do need a marketing > person or group -- so where are the marketing types ? Yes, I know that > they are hiding can one or two in the marketing category please step > forward and help our cause? > > Amancio I'd like to volunteer in the marketing thing. I think that we need "Marketing Groups" headed by a "Core Marketying" person. This is a big planet, so I think that little groups in major cities throughout the world that would be responsible to getting the word about about FreeBSD and it's strength in the business world. I remember when I was in high school, we used to do those "underground" parties. We'd go out and pass out flyers after school at different malls, and schools, and on weekends we'd hit the clubs. We were known as "Promoters". God, those days were so much fun. *sigh* Anyways.... Perhaps we can use this sort of method to promote FreeBSD. Groups of "FreeBSD Promoters" can hit computer trade shows, computer/software vendors, computer swapmeats and stuff like that passing out flyers, or stickers, or cd's. I don't know of WC already does it, but maybe produce some give away cd's. Inexpensive cd's witout all that facny printing work done to it and stuff like that. Promo-cd's. Maybe, if it isn't expensive we can set up a booth at these trade shows, selling books and cd's and having a demo of FreeBSD (a working machine running FreeBSD doing real work like CAD or something cool like that). All this would be done by volunteers. I know that would be hard an all to get some people off their buns and do something, but guys think of it this way. It would be a great motivation thing, you'd be able to go the trade shows to not only promote for FreeBSD, but look at the neat goodies they have to offer as well. :) I love going to see the new technology and stuff like that. Those are just some of my thoughts. I'd be willing to do that, although I don't want to do it alone. Anyone wanna help? Joey Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 12:55:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02667 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:55:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02642 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:55:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06696; Sun, 10 May 1998 12:55:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805101955.MAA06696@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Joey Garcia cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 12:42:27 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:55:00 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG For sure you have appeal to my hacker / gadget interest and pave the way to make me productive in the marketing arena . I love it!! If you feel that you need an assistant for an event in the Bay Area please don't hesitate to contact me. Tnks! Amancio > On Sun, 10 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > Closing remarks, as JKH also stated in the past we do need a marketing > > person or group -- so where are the marketing types ? Yes, I know that > > they are hiding can one or two in the marketing category please step > > forward and help our cause? > > > > Amancio > > > I'd like to volunteer in the marketing thing. I think that we need > "Marketing Groups" headed by a "Core Marketying" person. This is a big > planet, so I think that little groups in major cities throughout the world > that would be responsible to getting the word about about FreeBSD and it's > strength in the business world. > > I remember when I was in high school, we used to do those "underground" > parties. We'd go out and pass out flyers after school at different malls, > and schools, and on weekends we'd hit the clubs. We were known as > "Promoters". God, those days were so much fun. *sigh* Anyways.... > > Perhaps we can use this sort of method to promote FreeBSD. Groups of > "FreeBSD Promoters" can hit computer trade shows, computer/software > vendors, computer swapmeats and stuff like that passing out flyers, or > stickers, or cd's. I don't know of WC already does it, but maybe produce > some give away cd's. Inexpensive cd's witout all that facny printing work > done to it and stuff like that. Promo-cd's. Maybe, if it isn't expensive > we can set up a booth at these trade shows, selling books and cd's and > having a demo of FreeBSD (a working machine running FreeBSD doing real > work like CAD or something cool like that). > > All this would be done by volunteers. I know that would be hard an all to > get some people off their buns and do something, but guys think of it this > way. It would be a great motivation thing, you'd be able to go the trade > shows to not only promote for FreeBSD, but look at the neat goodies they > have to offer as well. :) I love going to see the new technology and > stuff like that. > > Those are just some of my thoughts. I'd be willing to do that, although I > don't want to do it alone. Anyone wanna help? > > Joey Garcia > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 13:16:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05574 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:16:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05565 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:16:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from mustang (pm3h-14.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.111]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA19545; Sun, 10 May 1998 13:15:35 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 13:12:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@mustang To: Amancio Hasty cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <199805101955.MAA06696@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 10 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > For sure you have appeal to my hacker / gadget interest and pave > the way to make me productive in the marketing arena . I love it!! > > If you feel that you need an assistant for an event in the Bay Area > please don't hesitate to contact me. > > Tnks! > Amancio > Okay, here's the plan...you hit the Bay Area, and I'll hit the Los Angeles area. :) Maybe we can colaborate on strategy, information for flyers, where to get stickers, cd's, etc? I think we need a bigger following though. Can't do it all by ourselves, can we? Mark Mayo's "FreeBSD In Academia" site pretty much paves the road to ideas on how to get FreeBSD used in schools. I think hitting community colleges would be the best bet in order to start out with, then we can hit specialty schools. DeVry teaches students about "Telecommunication" technology. Such as setting up phone systems, networks and servers. What better sever to use than FreeBSD? We need to promote FreeBSD to them and educate them on how FreeBSD can be used to save money for corporations, and how stable it is. Considering that they're an educational facility, we could educate them that FreeBSD would be the perfect OS to use because BSD was born from an educational enviroment. Now we just have to figure how to get the attention of Proffessors and Teachers in these enviroments. Got any ideas? Joey Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 14:09:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11734 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:09:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11716 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:09:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00664; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:09:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805102109.OAA00664@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Joey Garcia cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 13:12:29 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:09:08 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Now we just have to figure how to get the attention of Proffessors and > Teachers in these enviroments. Got any ideas? Professor and Teachers tend to be stubborn however they love to be politically correct and to a lesser extent fashionable. At least here in the US we can hit them with: 1. The schools systems are alway crying about their budget and begging for more money . Well, FreeBSD is *free*, functionable and attractive and it runs in cheap platforms such as 386, 486 and FreeBSD makes a very nice and attractive server. I know some of you are parents and shool board meetings is a wonderful opportunity to ask the school board if they are willing to support Open Source OS such as FreeBSD and save money by doing so. 2. Hit the goverment by asking them to promote FreeBSD as a way to save money and to encourage innovation. They are sinking millions of dollars going up against microsoft and by way of promoting or preferring Open Source OS such as FreeBSD they can be more effective in countering the monopolistic practices of Microsoft. We can start by sending letters to the DOJ and State Attorneys pointing out the virtues of FreeBSD for one statement from either group can propel FreeBSD to their fore-front . In this scenario the government and the people can make a difference. So perhaps the advocacy logo should be "You Can Make A Difference" . 3. Use Mark Mayo's "FreeBSD In Academia" as a reference and hopefully as time goes on include others as a reference. On the foreign government front , if they don't like to be controlled by microsoft, FreeBSD offers a wonderful opportunity to motivate global innovation. Additionally, if they wish to be directed and controlled by microsoft, here in the US we don't mind 8) In other words, appeal to their national egos to get off their butts and do something. For the short term we need a nice letter to send to the DOJ and to the State Attorneys asking them to block Win98 until Microsoft and hardware friends allow support for Open Source OS platforms . We can cite that Ralph Nader's request to PC hardware vendors went totally unheard and that this is just another example of the iron-grip hold that microsoft has on the industry. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 14:40:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14976 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:40:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sputnik.micromenders.com (sputnik.micromenders.com [209.40.32.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14936 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:39:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jar@rci.net) Received: from rci.net (apollo.rci.net [209.40.33.1]) by sputnik.micromenders.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA10048; Sun, 10 May 1998 17:36:48 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3555E4E1.F0714AFA@rci.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:33:21 +0000 From: Jack Rusher Organization: RCI.NET X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform References: <199805100511.WAA00309@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amancio Hasty wrote: > > To Netscape , Food for Thought: > > I don't see anyone bitching about NCI's choice of NetBSD (NC Clients) and > FreeBSD (NC Server) nor Yahoo's choice of FreeBSD servers. > > So please elevate FreeBSD to the same status as Linux. FreeBSD is swell, and we all know that, however, people actually know what Linux is (by people, I mean people without enough technical insight to make an informed choice). So, when the CTO of big company wants to say, "Yes, we are making support for free Un*x a priority", he can either make a long list of platforms that most people have never heard of, or he can say the magic word that people have been reading in the trades-- Linux. I can't blame him one bit for saying it the way he is, and ANY support for ANY free Un*x is support for us. The more comfortable people get with free software, Un*x flavored OS's, etc, etc, the more likely they are going to be to give FreeBSD a chance (he sang in a John Lennon voice). Our job is to make the best product possible, and advocate its use to those in a position to understand why they would want it. Our job is to convince software vendors to cross target powerful server tools to FreeBSD. Our job is NOT to fight with our other free Un*x brethren over who has the tightest kernel. -jack -- bash-2.00$ uname -snmr FreeBSD apollo.rci.net 3.0-CURRENT i386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 14:59:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16645 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:59:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16632 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:59:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01130; Sun, 10 May 1998 14:59:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805102159.OAA01130@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jack Rusher cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 17:33:21 -0000." <3555E4E1.F0714AFA@rci.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:59:47 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Excuse me , I am not advocating ragging on linux rather asking netscape and friends to elevate freebsd at least at the same level and in the case of netscape it can be constituted as a chicken / egg type problem if netscape do choses to mention FreeBSD as an alternative OS FreeBSD we all win. I will even take a statement from netscape with the tone of : We like Linux as Open Source OS however these others Open Source OSes do merit consideration , FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD and if you wish to know more about them here is how you can contact them,etc.. Remember , Netscape knows how to promote new technologies. Amancio > Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > > To Netscape , Food for Thought: > > > > I don't see anyone bitching about NCI's choice of NetBSD (NC Clients) and > > FreeBSD (NC Server) nor Yahoo's choice of FreeBSD servers. > > > > So please elevate FreeBSD to the same status as Linux. > > FreeBSD is swell, and we all know that, however, people actually know > what > Linux is (by people, I mean people without enough technical insight to > make > an informed choice). So, when the CTO of big company wants to say, > "Yes, we > are making support for free Un*x a priority", he can either make a long > list > of platforms that most people have never heard of, or he can say the > magic > word that people have been reading in the trades-- Linux. I can't blame > him > one bit for saying it the way he is, and ANY support for ANY free Un*x > is > support for us. The more comfortable people get with free software, > Un*x > flavored OS's, etc, etc, the more likely they are going to be to give > FreeBSD a chance (he sang in a John Lennon voice). > > Our job is to make the best product possible, and advocate its use to > those > in a position to understand why they would want it. Our job is to > convince > software vendors to cross target powerful server tools to FreeBSD. Our > job > is NOT to fight with our other free Un*x brethren over who has the > tightest > kernel. > > -jack > > -- > bash-2.00$ uname -snmr > FreeBSD apollo.rci.net 3.0-CURRENT i386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 15:19:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18760 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:19:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (root@mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18738 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 15:18:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA41078 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:18:36 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <24220.894784677@time.cdrom.com> References: Your message of "Sat, 09 May 1998 23:36:40 EDT." <199805100340.XAA13121@zephyr.cybercom.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:22:04 -0400 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Advocating for FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:17 AM -0700 5/10/98, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > In any case, this all segues nicely into an opportunity to air a pet > peeve of mine here, [...], and that's that we waste TOO MUCH BLOODY > TIME on the pointless exercise of jumping up and down like a bunch > of old ladies who've just seen a naked man ("Oooh! Wouldya look at > that!") every time some new Linux article comes out or somebody says > something nasty about FreeBSD in a public forum. > > I'm all for playing a reasonable defensive strategy, don't get me > wrong, but there also comes a point where you're just spending too > damn much time reacting to your opponents moves and are not really > engaged in formulating your own strategy. I agree. And as step in the right direction (IMO), I've changed the subject to something about advocating FreeBSD instead of whining about the fact that someone at a major company happened to mention Linux. I hope Linux does well, more power to them. I happen to prefer FreeBSD, and wonder what ideas people have to advocate *for* FreeBSD instead of just getting miffed whenever someone mentions Linux. I was hoping for a motto more catching than "We're the operating system which wants to get mentioned every time Linux gets mentioned". --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 16:02:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24201 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:02:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stcgate.statcan.ca (stcgate.statcan.ca [142.206.192.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA24195 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 16:02:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jeays@statcan.ca) Received: (from root@localhost) by stcgate.statcan.ca (8.6.11/8.6.9) id TAA17982; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:06:32 -0400 Received: from stcinet.statcan.ca(142.206.128.146) by stcgate via smap (V1.3) id sma017979; Sun May 10 23:05:37 1998 Received: from statcan.ca by statcan.ca (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA12720; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:03:59 -0400 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:59:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Jeays X-Sender: jeays@austral To: Amancio Hasty cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <199805102109.OAA00664@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Another argument for open source is that one really has to trust what is in closed source systems, and that this ought to be unacceptable when security is really at stake. No doubt organizations such as the Pentagon and the FBI (and the former KGB and the Mafia!) use proprietary operating systems, although I don't know to what extent they use them for really critical applications. How do they KNOW that the supplier, or clever renegade employees who have taken unauthorized Easter eggs to new heights, haven't embedded code that they would not like to be there? How do they KNOW that MegaHard Corp hasn't fused its operating system to shut down in 1999 if the soon-to-be-announced renewal fee hasn't been paid? They don't buy encryption products that say "just trust me". Why do they buy operating systems? The danger is certainly as great. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 18:01:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08669 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08652 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:01:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA00877 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:01:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805110101.SAA00877@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Letter to DOJ and State Attorney Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:01:02 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG California state attorney's web page which I easily found thru Yahoo: http://caag.state.ca.us/ DOJ's Anti Trust Division contact web page: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/index.html For your review: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello, The purpose of this letter is to ask you to block the Microsoft's Win98 release until it is clear that its monopolistic practice ceases. I believe that one the tightest strong-holds that Microsoft has on the PC industry is the way that Window is bundled with virtually every PC now sold. This serves as a way to block any other competing operating system and sets the stage for application dominance by Microsoft. Enclosed is Ralph Nader's letter which was submitted to major PC manufacturers . Naturally, there was no response from the PC manufacturers. Clearly, PC manufacturers need to have re-assurance that if they start distributing alternative Open Source OS platforms such as FreeBSD ( http://www.freebsd.org ) that there will not be any ill forthcoming action from Microsoft. Given that FreeBSD is supported world-wide and its developement is conducted in an open forum , I believe that FreeBSD can provide honest innovation. For example, please visit http://www.thinker.org which is a web server farm of FreeBSD systems serving images from a 3 Terabyte database, http://www.thinker.org/imagebase/index-2.html which clearly states that the image database is a joint project between the San Francisco Fine Arts and the Computer Science Division of the University of California at Berkeley;additionally, I have the original e-mail announcement stating that the image database is managed by a farm of FreeBSD systems should you be interested. Sincereley Yours, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 18:06:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA09234 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:06:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@mail.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09186 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:06:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA14229; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:05:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Garance A Drosihn cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Advocating for FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 10 May 1998, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > At 12:17 AM -0700 5/10/98, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > In any case, this all segues nicely into an opportunity to air a pet > > peeve of mine here, [...], and that's that we waste TOO MUCH BLOODY > > TIME on the pointless exercise of jumping up and down like a bunch > > of old ladies who've just seen a naked man ("Oooh! Wouldya look at > > that!") every time some new Linux article comes out or somebody says > > something nasty about FreeBSD in a public forum. > > > > I'm all for playing a reasonable defensive strategy, don't get me > > wrong, but there also comes a point where you're just spending too > > damn much time reacting to your opponents moves and are not really > > engaged in formulating your own strategy. > > I agree. > Yup, it's hard not to agree. For my part, I have taken to writting level-headed messges to the authors of various articles, either priasing their thurough coverage of the free software/OS topics or alternately gently pointing out their errors or other deficiencies. Letters to the editor indicating that a particular magazine has gone up in your estimation due to a particually good article is useful as well. Well, that's just my small means of contributing. Something tells me that this is where a lot of the linux newbies spent their time in years past. Hopefully in the future years we will reap similar rewards. BTW, you'd be surpised that I actually get responses saying thanks and "gee, I wasn't aware of that". I guess I'm not whinging too petulantly. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 18:12:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10252 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:12:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@mail.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10239 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:12:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA14246 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:12:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:12:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: leading technologies we support...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi folks, I just want to see if I can collect a list of the next generation technologies that FreeBSD is helping come into being. I mean this in the sense that FreeBSD is either the primary development platform or the FreeBSD user base is significant enough that FreeBSD is considered the reference platform. So far all that comes to mind clearly is mrouted (Bill Fenner, right?) and one of the IP6 implementations (INRA? Frenchies, right?). What else is primarily a BSD application? Can we claim that BIND and sendmail are still primarily BSD applications that are ported to the world? What others are there? I find dropping core technology names from past BSD successes useful when selling FreeBSD. The next generation technolgies are also becoming interesting to some people I deal with regularly these days. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 18:15:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10673 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:15:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@mail.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10651 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 18:15:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id VAA14321; Sun, 10 May 1998 21:15:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:15:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone read THIS one? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > http://www.news.com/SpecialFeatures/0,5,18652,00.html > > The same is true with two other major > freeware projects, the Apache Web server > and the FreeBSD operating system, both > Unix-based. FreeBSD is Linux's younger > cousin and counts an estimated 500,000 > users, according to David Greenman, > principal architect on the core FreeBSD > team. > > Uhh YOUNGER cousin? BSD's heritage is FAR older than linux itself by some > 15+ years. And we are not related. We have a BSD family. Linux doesn't :) > Where did this guy get this information. And I thought david never gave > out figures? Yes, I just did and dashed of a piece of mail sumarizing the history of BSD and its relative age to v6 and the BSD sources. Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 19:04:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17290 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:04:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17282 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:04:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01343 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:04:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805110204.TAA01343@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 to: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ and California State Attorney In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 18:01:02 PDT." <199805110101.SAA00877@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 19:04:35 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Target date to start emailing the letter is Monday. Why? According to the press , it is perceived that the DOJ and State Attornies plan to file suit on Wednesday. So it is imperative that we mass mail the goverment on Monday. In this scenario, spamming the goverment is *good* and encouraged behavior . Traditionally, is called participation -- God I love it !! You can locate your state attorney via Yahoo. Again, here is the contact info specially if you wish to express your own opinion: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- California state attorney's web page which I easily found thru Yahoo: http://caag.state.ca.us/ DOJ's Anti Trust Division contact web page: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/index.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 19:06:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17468 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:06:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17459 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:06:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-121-74.ca.us.ibm.net [166.72.121.74]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA17236; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:05:37 GMT Message-ID: <3556594C.26E2C134@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:50:04 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform References: <199805102109.OAA00664@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amancio Hasty wrote: > For the short term we need a nice letter to send to the DOJ and to > the State Attorneys asking them to block Win98 until Microsoft and > hardware friends allow support for Open Source OS platforms . We can > cite that Ralph Nader's request to PC hardware vendors went totally > unheard and that this is just another example of the iron-grip > hold that microsoft has on the industry. Can we change that, Amancio? I'd much rather they let W98 go out IF they insist that freeware be included as an alternative and that the mfrs not be allowed to ship 98 pre-installed. That way, we compete on an equal basis, and there has to be a choice before the user starts to play. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 19:07:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17571 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:07:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17558 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:06:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-121-42.ca.us.ibm.net [166.72.121.42]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA139764; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:06:44 GMT Message-ID: <3556575F.23176E4B@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:41:51 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jason, I'm sorry you feel that way. I thought the reservations they [DG and JKH] had were about its effectiveness, not its usage as a tool. Go back and read their posts without filtering it through your own anti-SPAM feelings, please. What they did say is that they don't get a very good response from the registration and that they doubted that this request would get everybody. Okay, fine. This doesn't change the fact that WE NEED NUMBERS. Do you have a better idea _that_will_work_??? I hope this circulates until the end of time because that will mean that people still care about FreeBSD [ or that The End Is Near, but that's another pail of worms ;) ]. It is irrelevant if FreeBSD goes away, but will always be relevant as long as FreeBSD exists. I can modify the wording to have people check the website for a newer version if things change, but the questions asked will always be relevant. This data will always be necessary, and I don't see any other alternative than going the 'commercial distribution' route, and I see that as far worse poison than a one-page chain letter. Now, if -core DOES think this is a mistake, let them speak. I have shown that reason will prevail with me, even when it is personally embarassing. If no official objections arise, then I will go make some Perl code and post it near the end of the week when I am happy with it. I am very much aligned with Jordan's aggrieved posting about time being wasted here. I will put forth my effort, and when the page goes up with working code, we can then have a vote. If there are enough legitimate objections, I will can it. If not, we will try it. I personally think the benefits outweight the costs. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 19:07:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17603 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:07:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17573 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:07:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-121-42.ca.us.ibm.net [166.72.121.42]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA90438; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:06:54 GMT Message-ID: <3556594C.26E2C134@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:50:04 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform References: <199805102109.OAA00664@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amancio Hasty wrote: > For the short term we need a nice letter to send to the DOJ and to > the State Attorneys asking them to block Win98 until Microsoft and > hardware friends allow support for Open Source OS platforms . We can > cite that Ralph Nader's request to PC hardware vendors went totally > unheard and that this is just another example of the iron-grip > hold that microsoft has on the industry. Can we change that, Amancio? I'd much rather they let W98 go out IF they insist that freeware be included as an alternative and that the mfrs not be allowed to ship 98 pre-installed. That way, we compete on an equal basis, and there has to be a choice before the user starts to play. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 19:07:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17686 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17641 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:07:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-121-42.ca.us.ibm.net [166.72.121.42]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA70794; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:07:04 GMT Message-ID: <35565A17.4491617E@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 18:53:27 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Jeays CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I suggested this [embedded bomb code] to a senior editor of a major trade, and he said "make a nice Hollywood movie". I wouldn't be surprised if Gates has embedded license-check code in the software. It may not freeze things up, but I wouldn't be surprised if a few DLLs might disappear or stop working, just minor little niggling things... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 19:07:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17751 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:07:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17719 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:07:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip166-72-121-42.ca.us.ibm.net [166.72.121.42]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA51300; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:07:27 GMT Message-ID: <35565C62.5F47E8C7@ibm.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 19:03:14 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal References: <199805100232.TAA13368@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Greenman wrote: > >you to answer this short questionnaire and also to copy it and forward > > If you really want this to succeed, then you should make a WWW page out > of the questionaire and ask people to press the buttons. I think it's far > too inconvenient for most people to mess around with email questionairs like > this. I will work up the web page first with its CGI. I don't think, however, that we will get enough response without an 'outreach' effort. That's why I think the e-mail is necessary. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 19:53:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23910 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:53:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23900 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:53:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01673; Sun, 10 May 1998 19:53:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805110253.TAA01673@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 18:50:04 PDT." <3556594C.26E2C134@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 19:53:05 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We can try that tactic however I think that many alternative OS are going to want to jump in the bandwagon so the question that PC manufacturers are going to ask is which alternative OS should be bundled with Win98? -- my take on that venue is that most likely Linux will win due to its current popularity :( At this stage , the best tactic is to block Win98 to force the industry to think about alternatives OSes -- stated differently : If we can managed to block Win98 , the penalty for monopolistic behavior is too high for PC manufacturers to ignore. Regards, Amancio > Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > For the short term we need a nice letter to send to the DOJ and to > > the State Attorneys asking them to block Win98 until Microsoft and > > hardware friends allow support for Open Source OS platforms . We can > > cite that Ralph Nader's request to PC hardware vendors went totally > > unheard and that this is just another example of the iron-grip > > hold that microsoft has on the industry. > > Can we change that, Amancio? I'd much rather they let W98 go out IF they > insist that freeware be included as an alternative and that the mfrs not > be allowed to ship 98 pre-installed. That way, we compete on an equal > basis, and there has to be a choice before the user starts to play. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 20:06:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24804 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:06:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24799 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:06:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08779; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:05:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Joey Garcia cc: Amancio Hasty , Brett Glass , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 11:18:03 PDT." <3.0.1.32.19980510111803.006a0f5c@pacificnet.net> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:05:43 -0700 Message-ID: <8775.894855943@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Okay, "Do the drudge work", eh? Well, I have some web space on my ISP's > server that I don't use. They allow CGI programs, and other stuff too. I > can donate my space if that would help. It's only 5 megs though. If Thanks, that's nice of you, but we have plenty (and I do mean PLENTY) of available web server hosts, what we really need now is CONTENT for them. :-) If someone writes a series of evangelism pages then the very least of our worries will be finding some place to host them, believe me. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 20:10:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25220 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (root@mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25187 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:10:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id XAA53362; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:10:43 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3556575F.23176E4B@ibm.net> References: Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:14:11 -0400 To: dwilde1@ibm.net, "Jason C. Wells" From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: chain letter proposal Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 6:41 PM -0700 5/10/98, Don Wilde wrote: >Jason, I'm sorry you feel that way. > > I thought the reservations they [DG and JKH] had were about its > effectiveness, not its usage as a tool. Go back and read their posts > without filtering it through your own anti-SPAM feelings, please. Well, I don't want to come off as a constant wet-blanket in this mailing list, but I'd also note that we (RPI) specifically tell everyone at RPI not to forward chain-letters. Not even for good causes, such as the poor child who's dieing and just wants to get in the guiness book of world records for having received the most postcards. Now, I realize you're not trying to make a true chain letter here, but the subject on this thread has me a little uneasy... :-) --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 20:42:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28814 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA28784 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:42:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08955; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:41:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Joey Garcia cc: Amancio Hasty , Brett Glass , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 12:42:27 PDT." Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:41:39 -0700 Message-ID: <8951.894858099@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'd like to volunteer in the marketing thing. I think that we need > "Marketing Groups" headed by a "Core Marketying" person. This is a big I think that anyone seriously contemplating taking on a task like this, and I include Amancio, should simply sit down at this point and try the exercise of writing a single 8.5 x 11 sheet of text which describes what's good about FreeBSD and why your initial target audience (be they professors, businessmen, students, whatever) should give it a look. If you truly set out to do this and don't just blow the challenge off, you will immediately discover 2 important things: 1. Coming up with a full page of _good_ text is harder than it looks. 2. Increasing your skill at doing that effectively is what marketing is really all about. Whether you're giving away CDs at a student fair or making a pitch to some journalist, if you don't have a set of cogent arguments put together or can't express them clearly, you're going to come off looking like a fool and worse, probably do more _damage_ than actual good by making it seem like FreeBSD's advocates are lacking some important clues and are probably not worth dealing with. I've seen a lot of advocacy which goes something like "I use FreeBSD and I think you should be, like, talking about it more and not just that Linux crap" or even says reasonable things but in such bad english that it simply makes me CRINGE. If we're after a more professional image, and I think our already professional image is an advantage which we should leverage fully, then we simply have to do better than that. So, to repeat: If you're serious about getting involved in marketing FreeBSD, start writing. You don't even have to have a target for your initial efforts, just *write* as an exercise if nothing else and start refining the marketing skills which you are going to need very badly indeed the moment you decide to jump seriously into this task. And to those who'll now write back indignantly to say "But I'm a FINE writer, I write all the time! I write in my sleep!", I'll answer you in advance: If you're such a fine writer then, how come I'm not seeing your name at the top of more magazine articles or books? :-) I think most people here have the desire and the drive to market FreeBSD, they just need to start actually practicing the activity until they get it down pat. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 20:51:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01296 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:51:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bridge.millstream.net (mike@bridge.millstream.net [208.12.120.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01237 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:51:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@bridge.millstream.net) Received: from localhost (mike@localhost) by bridge.millstream.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA11498 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:57:46 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:57:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Bresina cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 10 May 1998, Garance A Drosihn wrote: > Well, I don't want to come off as a constant wet-blanket in this > mailing list, but I'd also note that we (RPI) specifically tell > everyone at RPI not to forward chain-letters. Not even for good > causes, such as the poor child who's dieing and just wants to > get in the guiness book of world records for having received the > most postcards. > > Now, I realize you're not trying to make a true chain letter here, > but the subject on this thread has me a little uneasy... :-) Another problem with this approach is that using intrusive techniques (which unsolicited email is) tends to position one's product as being of poor quality at best; it's generally outright scams that need to be marketed in this manner. --------------------------------------- Mike Bresina (mike@vsat.net) System Administrator Intellicom Customer Service Center http://www.vsat.net/ v. (715) 720-1760 f. (715) 720-1762 --------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 20:53:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01805 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:53:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from home.bhl (1Cust148.tnt1.lafayette.in.da.uu.net [208.254.19.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01753 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 20:53:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bhlewis@gte.net) Received: from ylana.home.bhl (bhlewis@localhost.home.bhl [127.0.0.1]) by home.bhl (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29948; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:52:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bhlewis@ylana.home.bhl) Message-Id: <199805110352.WAA29948@home.bhl> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Amancio Hasty cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ and State Attorney In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 18:01:02 MST." <199805110101.SAA00877@rah.star-gate.com> From: Benjamin Lewis Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:52:57 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amancio- Sorry if you see this letter more than once (typo on my part). I hate to jump out of the blue and onto your letter, but I do feel that it would be a mistake to send it in its current form. Here's my review: > Hello, > > The purpose of this letter is to ask you to block the Microsoft's Win98 > release until it is clear that its monopolistic practice ceases. > > I believe that one the tightest strong-holds that Microsoft has on > the PC industry is the way that Windows is bundled with virtually ^ (pedantic edit) > every PC now sold. This serves as a way to block any other competing > operating system and sets the stage for application dominance by > Microsoft. > > Enclosed is Ralph Nader's letter which was submitted to major > PC manufacturers . Naturally, there was no response from the PC > manufacturers. Clearly, PC manufacturers need to have re-assurance > that if they start distributing alternative Up until this point, I think the letter is great. Perhaps a bit more formal greeting would be in order, but that is just a nit-pick. I would finish the last sentence above like this: ...operating systems that no retribution from Microsoft would be forthcoming. > Open Source OS platforms > such as FreeBSD ( http://www.freebsd.org ) that there will not be any ill > forthcoming action from Microsoft. > > Given that FreeBSD is supported world-wide and its developement is > conducted in an open forum , I believe that FreeBSD can provide > honest innovation. For example, please visit http://www.thinker.org > which is a web server farm of FreeBSD systems serving images from > a 3 Terabyte database, http://www.thinker.org/imagebase/index-2.html > which clearly states that the image database is a joint project > between the San Francisco Fine Arts and the Computer Science > Division of the University of California at Berkeley;additionally, > I have the original e-mail announcement stating that the image > database is managed by a farm of FreeBSD systems should you be > interested. I don't think that it is appropriate to include FreeBSD advocacy in this letter. I think that including the above portion makes it clear that your agenda is to promote one operating system at the expense of Microsoft, rather than protecting citizens from the actions of a monopolist. Although FreeBSD users like ourselves might like to see FreeBSD being advocated by the Justice Department, the DOJ is (supposed to be) about protecting all citizens and not promoting one organization at the expense of another. The advocacy would make the letter seem be from a man who wants the government to step in so that his favorite project can succeed instead of stepping in to protect the citizens from a company. Just some thoughts, -Ben -- Benjamin Lewis bhlewis@gte.net -or- bhlewis@purdue.edu -- Benjamin Lewis bhlewis@gte.net -or- bhlewis@purdue.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 22:03:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10950 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:03:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10944 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:03:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09494; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:02:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Benjamin Lewis cc: Amancio Hasty , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ and State Attorney In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 22:52:57 CDT." <199805110352.WAA29948@home.bhl> Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:02:14 -0700 Message-ID: <9490.894862934@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Although FreeBSD users like ourselves might like to see FreeBSD being > advocated by the Justice Department, the DOJ is (supposed to be) about > protecting all citizens and not promoting one organization at the expense of > another. The advocacy would make the letter seem be from a man who wants the Probably even more importantly though, a letter which slams Microsoft and then goes on to directly suggest a competing alternative is likely to be far less effective than one which attempts to pit cause against cause. You don't want to be making this a FreeBSD vs Microsoft fight since we're clearly too small for that right now. You want to be making this a "Free software" vs Microsoft fight or, on an even larger battlefield, an "American* software industry's larger interests vs Microsoft" fight if you're trying to get the maximum amount of political weight behind you. - Jordan * I know it's actually a "world software industry interests vs Microsoft" issue, but if you're writing to the American justice dept. you have to kind of keep in mind their primary area of interest. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 22:10:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12189 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:10:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12183 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:10:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02406; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:10:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805110510.WAA02406@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Benjamin Lewis , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ and State Attorney In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 22:02:14 PDT." <9490.894862934@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:10:40 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Guys, Guys, I feel like we begin to tick!! The revision letter will be coming out shortly. Tnks! Amancio > > Although FreeBSD users like ourselves might like to see FreeBSD being > > advocated by the Justice Department, the DOJ is (supposed to be) about > > protecting all citizens and not promoting one organization at the expense of > > another. The advocacy would make the letter seem be from a man who wants the > > Probably even more importantly though, a letter which slams Microsoft > and then goes on to directly suggest a competing alternative is likely > to be far less effective than one which attempts to pit cause against > cause. You don't want to be making this a FreeBSD vs Microsoft fight > since we're clearly too small for that right now. You want to be > making this a "Free software" vs Microsoft fight or, on an even larger > battlefield, an "American* software industry's larger interests vs > Microsoft" fight if you're trying to get the maximum amount of > political weight behind you. > > - Jordan > > * I know it's actually a "world software industry interests vs Microsoft" > issue, but if you're writing to the American justice dept. you have to > kind of keep in mind their primary area of interest. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 22:26:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14003 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:26:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13996 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:26:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02484 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:26:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805110526.WAA02484@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Letter to DOJ: Part II Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:26:51 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG California state attorney's web page which I easily found thru Yahoo: http://caag.state.ca.us/ DOJ's Anti Trust Division contact web page: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/index.html For your review: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Honor, The purpose of this letter is to ask you to block the Microsoft's Win98 release until it is clear that its monopolistic practice ceases. I believe that one the tightest strong-holds that Microsoft has on the PC industry is the way that Windows is bundled with virtually every PC now sold. This serves as a way to block any other competing operating system and sets the stage for application dominance by Microsoft. Enclosed is Ralph Nader's letter which was submitted to major PC manufacturers . Naturally, there was no response from the PC manufacturers. Clearly, PC manufacturers need to have re-assurance that if they start distributing alternative operating systems that no retribution from Microsoft would be forthcoming. To not act in this matter will clearly stiffle the creative process in the software industry from which Microsoft itself rose from. Sincereley Yours, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 22:37:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14573 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:37:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14560 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:37:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (root@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id WAA17776; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:36:56 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id WAA19560; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:35:25 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Benjamin Lewis cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ and State Attorney In-Reply-To: <199805110352.WAA29948@home.bhl> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 10 May 1998, Benjamin Lewis wrote: >another. The advocacy would make the letter seem be from a man who wants the >government to step in so that his favorite project can succeed instead of >stepping in to protect the citizens from a company. Yep. I do support the notion that the DOJ should prevent M$ from strongarming PC OEMs into using win95 and only win95. OEMs should be able to choose the OS they install -or- (i like this) no OS is preinstalled at all. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 22:44:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15130 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:44:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA15124 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:44:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02575 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:44:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805110544.WAA02575@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Letter to DOJ: Part II.1 8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:44:30 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Apologies , I hit send to fast... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- California state attorney's web page which I easily found thru Yahoo: http://caag.state.ca.us/ DOJ's Anti Trust Division contact web page: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/index.html For your review: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Honor, The purpose of this letter is to ask you to block Microsoft's Win98 release until it is clear that its monopolistic practice ceases. I believe that one of the tightest strong-holds that Microsoft has on the PC industry is that Windows is bundled with virtually every PC now sold. This serves as a way to block any other competing operating system and sets the stage for application dominance by Microsoft. Enclosed is Ralph Nader's letter which was submitted to major PC manufacturers. Naturally, there was no response from the PC manufacturers. Clearly, PC manufacturers need to have reassurance that if they start distributing alternative operating systems no retribution from Microsoft will be forthcoming. To not act in this matter will clearly stiffle the creative process in the software industry. Sincereley Yours, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 22:49:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15558 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:49:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [129.72.251.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA15548 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 22:49:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28225; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:49:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199805110549.XAA28225@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:49:07 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Joey Garcia From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform Cc: Amancio Hasty , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <8951.894858099@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, Jordan, if I'm going to spend lots of time marketing this stuff, it would help me to keep bread on the table if I have some CD-ROMs to sell. How much does WC charge wholesale, in volume? --Brett At 08:41 PM 5/10/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> I'd like to volunteer in the marketing thing. I think that we need >> "Marketing Groups" headed by a "Core Marketying" person. This is a big > >I think that anyone seriously contemplating taking on a task like >this, and I include Amancio, should simply sit down at this point and >try the exercise of writing a single 8.5 x 11 sheet of text which >describes what's good about FreeBSD and why your initial target >audience (be they professors, businessmen, students, whatever) should >give it a look. If you truly set out to do this and don't just blow >the challenge off, you will immediately discover 2 important things: > >1. Coming up with a full page of _good_ text is harder than it looks. > >2. Increasing your skill at doing that effectively is what marketing > is really all about. > >Whether you're giving away CDs at a student fair or making a pitch to >some journalist, if you don't have a set of cogent arguments put >together or can't express them clearly, you're going to come off >looking like a fool and worse, probably do more _damage_ than actual >good by making it seem like FreeBSD's advocates are lacking some >important clues and are probably not worth dealing with. I've seen a >lot of advocacy which goes something like "I use FreeBSD and I think >you should be, like, talking about it more and not just that Linux >crap" or even says reasonable things but in such bad english that it >simply makes me CRINGE. If we're after a more professional image, and >I think our already professional image is an advantage which we should >leverage fully, then we simply have to do better than that. > >So, to repeat: If you're serious about getting involved in marketing >FreeBSD, start writing. You don't even have to have a target for your >initial efforts, just *write* as an exercise if nothing else and start >refining the marketing skills which you are going to need very badly >indeed the moment you decide to jump seriously into this task. > >And to those who'll now write back indignantly to say "But I'm a FINE >writer, I write all the time! I write in my sleep!", I'll answer you >in advance: If you're such a fine writer then, how come I'm not seeing >your name at the top of more magazine articles or books? :-) > >I think most people here have the desire and the drive to market >FreeBSD, they just need to start actually practicing the activity >until they get it down pat. > >- Jordan > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun May 10 23:54:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22224 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:54:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from new-kyoko.mpx.com.au (new-kyoko.mpx.com.au [203.2.75.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22212 for ; Sun, 10 May 1998 23:54:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@mpx.com.au) Received: from right.gdr.net.au(really [203.29.200.18]) by new-kyoko.mpx.com.au via smtpd with smtp id for ; Mon, 11 May 98 16:53:59 +1000 (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.13.SOL #30.20 built 28-jun-97) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980511165706.008049f0@m1.gdr.net.au> X-Sender: right@m1.gdr.net.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:57:06 +1000 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: phil grainger Subject: yur missing the point Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id XAA22217 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG novell are claiming 3.9million servers and 80 million client licences and freebsd-advocacy is arguing about what material is best for mouse matts ;) are we missing something here ? phil ôżô To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 00:20:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA25685 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:20:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA25674 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:20:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03136 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:20:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805110720.AAA03136@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: DOJ Letter: The Ralph Nader's Papers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:20:41 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is what I intent to include in the letter to the DOJ. Exhibit A This is a web pointer to a letter sent to Compaq, Dell, Gateway 2000, Hewlett-Packard, Micron, and Packard Bell-NEC. http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/compaq.html Exhibit B For further information on Microsoft's Monopolistic behavior see: http://www.essential.org/antitrust/microsoft/microsoft.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 00:37:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA27196 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:37:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (www.degnet.baynet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA27169 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:37:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malte@webmore.com) Received: from neuron.webmore.com (unverified [194.95.214.172]) by cyclone.degnet.baynet.de (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:34:32 +0200 Received: from neuron.webmore.de (malte@webmore.com) by neuron.webmore.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA00498; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:37:19 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199805110204.TAA01343@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:37:19 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: malte@webmore.com From: Malte Lance To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ and California State Attorney Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 11-May-98 Amancio Hasty wrote: > In this scenario, spamming the goverment is *good* and encouraged > behavior . Traditionally, is called participation -- God I love it !! > > You can locate your state attorney via Yahoo. What about non-US-citizens ? Many people outside the US are very interested in the anti-trust-process against M$ since M$ is not just pestering you Americans. Malte. > > Again, here is the contact info specially if you wish to express > your own opinion: > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > California state attorney's web page which I easily found thru Yahoo: > > http://caag.state.ca.us/ > > DOJ's Anti Trust Division contact web page: > > http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/index.html > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > - > > > Amancio > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Malte Lance Date: 11-May-98 Time: 09:22:09 ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 00:49:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA29202 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:49:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29194 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:49:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA10513; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:48:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass cc: Joey Garcia , Amancio Hasty , Jason Nordwick , The Classiest Man Alive , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 10 May 1998 23:49:07 MDT." <199805110549.XAA28225@lariat.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:48:39 -0700 Message-ID: <10509.894872919@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, Jordan, if I'm going to spend lots of time marketing this stuff, > it would help me to keep bread on the table if I have some CD-ROMs > to sell. How much does WC charge wholesale, in volume? Well, it's a sliding scale that depends on what you mean by "volume", but even at the ten-piece price it's still quite competitive for the reseller. That's also why our direct retail prices are still comparatively high by the standards of the industry; we deliberately price stuff at around $10-$15 stuff over "street" value so that the distributors have some room in which to comfortably undersell us and still make a decent profit. Since the FreeBSD CD product has a surprisingly large population of loyal direct-sales customers, we can also use the higher profits from these sales to directly fund more substantial FreeBSD project interests now without putting Walnut Creek CDROM on sticks in the process. It seems to work out pretty well for all concerned! Anyway, if you drop me your FAX or snail address I'll have a distributor price list sent to you. I don't seem to have an on-line copy of that particular information anywhere. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 00:50:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA29353 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:50:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA29348 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:50:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03284; Mon, 11 May 1998 00:50:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805110750.AAA03284@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: malte@webmore.com cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ and California State Attorney In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 May 1998 09:37:19 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:50:21 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Good Question!! This is a global concerned being fought in US territory however I don't see why foreign governments nor foreigners can not express their opinions specially if the outcome does affect them. Regards, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 01:45:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05888 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 01:45:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA05876 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 01:45:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA03875 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:35:02 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3556B84C.4F80CC19@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:35:24 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS.. References: <24122.894783232@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > FreeBSD's case, that's unlikely to even begin until I64 parts are made > more or less widely available to our developers and I don't see that > happening anytime soon. We'll just have to wait and see how the > market develops. this (from tbtf) looked interesting - ..Judge rules Intel an "essential facility" Guilty in Intergraph lawsuit of abusing its dominant position In a ruling [1] sure to have wide repercussions, on 4/10 a federal judge ruled in favor of Intergraph in its lawsuit accusing Intel of using its dominant market position to force Intergraph to give up key patent rights. The judge ruled that Intel's CPU platform is an "essential facility" -- like air, like water -- and identified specific remedies to address Intel's abuse of its dominant position. One eventual beneficiary of the ruling may be the open software movement -- see "Intel's Merced locking out free OSs" in TBTF for 3/23/98 [2]. [1] http://www.intergraph.com/press98/aprilorder.stm [2] http://www.tbtf.com/archive/03-23-98.html#s03 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 02:03:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA07807 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:03:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA07801 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 02:03:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04815 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:02:26 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3556BEB8.6A78D4AD@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:02:48 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal References: <3554A40B.1CCAEDBD@ibm.net> <199805100232.TAA13368@implode.root.com> <19980510121717.F12200@freebie.lemis.com> <3555AF21.909EFEC@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > > As I said before, the registration dialogue is vulnerable because > nobody has connectivity when they get to it, That doesn't matter because it'll leave it in the mailq. Maybe it should say "Don't worry if you don't have net access because we're sure you will someday, and it will be hanging around waiting"...or maybe include a message in the default MOTD pointing people to a web page? > Does anybody have more questions that need to be asked? I really think this would be better done on the web. That way you can put it on a .signature on news which will be seen by more people and won't annoy people. Spam gets remembered for a very long time, as I'm sure SCO and USR will have found out! Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 04:08:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22014 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 04:08:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA21895 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 04:08:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id UAA20794; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:37:56 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980511203756.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:37:56 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Amancio Hasty , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ: Part II References: <199805110526.WAA02484@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199805110526.WAA02484@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sun, May 10, 1998 at 10:26:51PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 X-Mutt-References: <199805110526.WAA02484@rah.star-gate.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 10 May 1998 at 22:26:51 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > California state attorney's web page which I easily found thru Yahoo: > > http://caag.state.ca.us/ OK, I've been skimming these messages as they came through. Some people have said "why restrict this to the USA, it's a global problem". There are some answers to that question, but why restrict it to a state? I can't see anything on this page which relates to Microsoft, and a search for "microsoft" returns No Documents Found. > DOJ's Anti Trust Division contact web page: > > http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/index.html > > > For your review: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Your Honor, > > The purpose of this letter is to ask you to block the Microsoft's Win98 > release until it is clear that its monopolistic practice ceases. > > I believe that one the tightest strong-holds that Microsoft has on > the PC industry is the way that Windows is bundled with virtually > every PC now sold. This serves as a way to block any other competing > operating system and sets the stage for application dominance by > Microsoft. > > Enclosed is Ralph Nader's letter which was submitted to major > PC manufacturers . Naturally, there was no response from the PC > manufacturers. Clearly, PC manufacturers need to have re-assurance > that if they start distributing alternative operating systems that > no retribution from Microsoft would be forthcoming. > > To not act in this matter will clearly stiffle the creative stifle > process in the software industry from which Microsoft itself > rose from. Not a bad start. I think that it makes sense for everybody to modify the wording ts something he feels comfortable with. That notwithstanding, the addressees will recognize that "there's a den of them out there somewhere". Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 06:31:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09522 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 06:31:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA09492 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 06:31:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0yYsdX-0001u1-00; Mon, 11 May 1998 14:28:59 +0100 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:29:00 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: Mike Jeays cc: Amancio Hasty , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > How do they KNOW that MegaHard Corp hasn't fused its operating system to > shut down in 1999 if the soon-to-be-announced renewal fee hasn't been > paid? MegaHard Corp = Microsoft shut down in 1999 = millenium bug (even in programs under 4 years old)? (Even without a renewal fee being asked for.) So, e.g.: NT4 users have to upgrade to NT5 (I can't remember where I heard this) Word 5 users have to upgrade Older versions of Win3.1 and Win95 have problems Access [1994] has problems with dates DOS has problems (New Scientist 2/5/98) Question: Was Microsoft really absent-minded enough to write programs this recently (when people knew about the Y2K problem) without avoiding the problem or did they do it on purpose to make people upgrade? Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 07:22:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15688 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:22:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@mail.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA15658 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:22:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id KAA21027; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:20:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: "Jan B. Koum " , Remy NONNENMACHER , adrian@virginia.edu, garbanzo@hooked.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS.. In-Reply-To: <24122.894783232@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 9 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > BTW, HP is making HP-UX for 64bit upcoming chip Intel is working > > on. So is Solaris. Wonder if FreeBSD will need to be ported also. > > This question is only coming up for you _now_? [looks around for the > rock which Yan has obviously been hiding under] :-) > > Yes, it will naturally need to be ported. If you read any of the > press announcements that Intel has released on this thing over the > last year or so, you'll see that it is not planned to be ABI compliant > with the x86 architecture and OS vendors will need to port to it. In > FreeBSD's case, that's unlikely to even begin until I64 parts are made > more or less widely available to our developers and I don't see that > happening anytime soon. We'll just have to wait and see how the > market develops. > > - Jordan Are both the UlltraSPARC and ALPHA ports completely stalled? One of thse was hoped to bring FreeBSD into the 64-bit arena before it became an issue on Intel. (In only ask because either I got dropped from the alpha/sparc lists, or there just aren't any messages.) Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 07:30:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16670 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:30:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA16660 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:30:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18899; Mon, 11 May 1998 07:29:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Adrian Filipi-Martin cc: "Jan B. Koum " , Remy NONNENMACHER , garbanzo@hooked.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: InfoBeads: Linux #2 ISP OS.. In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 May 1998 10:20:33 EDT." Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 07:29:30 -0700 Message-ID: <18893.894896970@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Are both the UlltraSPARC and ALPHA ports completely stalled? One Sparc yes, ALPHA no. ALPHA is actually making surprisingly good progress lately but I'll let John Birrell speak for himself. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 08:21:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23483 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:21:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23469 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:21:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05452; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:20:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805111520.IAA05452@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ: Part II In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 May 1998 20:37:56 +0930." <19980511203756.I20153@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:20:40 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, You all are welcome to register your own complain and to formulate your own opinion. Best Regards, Amancio > On Sun, 10 May 1998 at 22:26:51 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > California state attorney's web page which I easily found thru Yahoo: > > > > http://caag.state.ca.us/ > > OK, I've been skimming these messages as they came through. Some > people have said "why restrict this to the USA, it's a global > problem". There are some answers to that question, but why restrict > it to a state? I can't see anything on this page which relates to > Microsoft, and a search for "microsoft" returns No Documents Found. > > > DOJ's Anti Trust Division contact web page: > > > > http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/index.html > > > > > > For your review: > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Your Honor, > > > > The purpose of this letter is to ask you to block the Microsoft's Win98 > > release until it is clear that its monopolistic practice ceases. > > > > I believe that one the tightest strong-holds that Microsoft has on > > the PC industry is the way that Windows is bundled with virtually > > every PC now sold. This serves as a way to block any other competing > > operating system and sets the stage for application dominance by > > Microsoft. > > > > Enclosed is Ralph Nader's letter which was submitted to major > > PC manufacturers . Naturally, there was no response from the PC > > manufacturers. Clearly, PC manufacturers need to have re-assurance > > that if they start distributing alternative operating systems that > > no retribution from Microsoft would be forthcoming. > > > > To not act in this matter will clearly stiffle the creative > > stifle > > > process in the software industry from which Microsoft itself > > rose from. > > Not a bad start. I think that it makes sense for everybody to modify > the wording ts something he feels comfortable with. That > notwithstanding, the addressees will recognize that "there's a den of > them out there somewhere". > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 08:33:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24671 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:33:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24657 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:33:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA05539 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 08:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805111533.IAA05539@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Letter to DOJ: Microsoft vs. the Software Industry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:33:32 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The time to act is NOW!!! I just register my complain with the California State Attorney and the DOJ. Since this is not a formal vote and it is a global concerned , all are invited to file a complain. You are not restricted to file a complain with the California State Attorney in my case it just happen to be where I live.In fact, since it is not known which State Attorney is going to file an Anti-Trust Law suit against Microsoft it is a good idea to file your complain with your local State Attorney . If you disagree with the wording of the complain feel free to modify the complain or write your own. The important aspect is to get involved and do register an opinion. All we are asking is that if the Anti-Trust Laws are applicable to be enforced in the case of the business practices of Microsoft. California state attorney's web page which I easily found thru Yahoo: http://caag.state.ca.us/ DOJ's Anti Trust Division contact web page: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Honor, The purpose of this letter is to ask you to block Microsoft's Win98 release until it is clear that its monopolistic practice ceases. I believe that one of the tightest strong-holds that Microsoft has on the PC industry is that Windows is bundled with virtually every PC now sold. This serves as a way to block any other competing operating system and sets the stage for application dominance by Microsoft. Enclosed is Ralph Nader's letter which was submitted to major PC manufacturers. Naturally, there was no response from the PC manufacturers. Clearly, PC manufacturers need to have reassurance that if they start distributing alternative operating systems no retribution from Microsoft will be forthcoming. To not act in this matter will clearly stiffle the creative process in the software industry. Sincereley Yours, Exhibit A This is a web pointer to a letter sent to Compaq, Dell, Gateway 2000, Hewlett-Packard, Micron, and Packard Bell-NEC. http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/compaq.html Exhibit B For further information on Microsoft's Monopolistic behavior see: http://www.essential.org/antitrust/microsoft/microsoft.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 09:05:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29772 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:05:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29763 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:05:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05744 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 09:05:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805111605.JAA05744@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Letter to DOJ campaing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:05:17 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The Letter to DOJ went out to comp.sys.intel, comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc and to the infoworld forum (http://forums.infoworld.com/threads/get.cgi?53767 ) if you feel that is appropriate to post the letter to another forum please do so . Happy Protest! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 11:00:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18757 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:00:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.freebsd.org (freefall.FreeBSD.ORG [204.216.27.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18643; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mckay@FreeBSD.org) From: Stephen McKay Received: (from mckay@localhost) by freefall.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) id KAA24974; Mon, 11 May 1998 10:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:56:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805111756.KAA24974@freefall.freebsd.org> To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, mckay@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Andreessen: Linux use growing References: <354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net> In-Reply-To: <354D35BA.CE963812@ibm.net> from "Kriston J. Rehberg" at "05 May 1998 13:19:43 +1000" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tuesday, 5th May 1998, "Kriston J. Rehberg" wrote: >They know next to nothing about FreeBSD's merits and good >quality; however, hearing the name "FreeBSD" they immediatly get the >impression that their production web site is running on "cheapo-OS," >"not-good-enough-to-pay-for-OS" or, worst of all, "OS-without-support." >Not that any of these things are necessarily true, but first impressions >are important. I'm obviously no good at this advocacy stuff because I would use this operating system even if it were called Dog Shit on a Stick. Management still wouldn't be able to find its arse with both hands, and Dog Shit on a Stick would still run our primary name server. I am personally unconvinced by arguments that describe how shallow are our fellows, despite this being essentially accurate. FreeBSD is an excellent name for an excellent system. Promote it, yes, but rename it "TrueGrit OS/Pro" to entice the fools and we only reinforce their fallacious view that a catchy name means a good product. Stephen. Disclaimer: My employer doesn't believe any of this. PS The true danger is not in software, whether Linux or that junk from Microsoft. We are thriving despite Windows, and Linux really is close enough to be one of the family. Microsoft and Intel want to replace open computer hardware with the closed I2O system. Almost everybody is in the i2osig. Can they win? Check out http://www.i2osig.org and http://www.kenandted.com/i2o and http://open-i2o.abies.com to see how marketing can turn any good idea sour. The "rage" sites are a bit out of date, but I've seen nothing on the main site that indicates they are going to turn out to be good guys after all. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 11:08:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21096 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:08:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@mail.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21043 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 11:08:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id OAA26397; Mon, 11 May 1998 14:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:07:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Andrew Short cc: Greg Lehey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Adrian Filipi-Martin , "Jason C. Wells" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: O'Reilly prints FreeBSD book (WAS: Re: Oracle 7 on FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 May 1998, Andrew Short wrote: > On Sat, 9 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > Great, now can we get the same thing to happen for the WC version? > > > Everyone hates the man pages! ;-) > > > > Do they? This is the first complaint I've heard. But maybe they'll > > let you into to storeroom to tear them out. > > If OReilly is going to kill the man pages (and it certainly appears that > they are going to do so), I would buy another book that HAD the man pages. > I PREFER -to the point of chemical dependency- written documentation. > Printed documentation is nice when you can get away from your desk long enough for it to be more than a burden. I'd give my eye teeth for a book that had '/'-regex searching as a feature. After all, it's hard to beat the battery life of a book. ;-) Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 12:13:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02216 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA02207 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:13:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id MAA12542 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:13:38 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id MAA06103 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 12:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:12:08 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Openhardware.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I just received a reply from OpenHardware.org. It is included at the end of this message. We get a tiny, tiny bit of exposure here http://www.openhardware.org/. (I said tiny) This organization would love to have OEMs get in touch with them. If you work for a company that might be coaxed into releasing driver source code, get in touch with these folks. This can only help FreeBSD and free software in general. If you do send an OEM there way, make sure they know that the FreeBSD community is helping them out. This can only increase the esteem with which people regard FreeBSD. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:38:09 +0200 (GMT+0200) From: Vincent Renardias To: "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: FreeBSD Supports Your Endeavors [Sorry for the late reply, I just come back from a 2 week vacation ;) ] On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > FreeBSD, Inc would like to register their support for the Open Hardware > Certification Program. Thanx for your support; I've added "FreeBSD, Inc" to the list of the supporting corps. > The availability of information for hardware drivers is an important issue > to all software companies that do not enjoy the widespread OEM support > that certain commercial companies enjoy. > > Your website is geared toward providing info to OEMs. Please send any > pertinent information that a supporting software organization may need. For now we mostly need new devices to be registered. We currently have only 4, and my guess is we need to have at least a dozain to reach the critical mass and start to gain interest from the other hardware manufacturers. We initially (& naively) relied on hardware manufacturers to come & register. It didn't work too well so far, so I'm planning on making a list of manufacturers which are known to be "Free Software Friendly" (ie: which released without requiring any NDA informations about their devices to various Linux, *BSD, etc developers) and to contact them directly. As for the information that software developers can obtain from the OpenHardware site, on each product page there is a link to a complete documentation as well as a sample device driver implementation. > Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. > Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ BTW, I've had a look on the Project Staff's page on www.freebsd.org, but couldn't find a reference to your name. Did I overlooked it? Cordialement, -- - Vincent RENARDIAS vincent@{waw.com,pipo.com,debian.org} - - Debian/GNU Linux: Pipo: WAW: - - http://www.fr.debian.org http://www.pipo.com http://www.waw.com - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- - "La fonctionnalite Son Visuel vous delivre des avertissements visuels." - - [Message durant l'installation de Windows95]:wq To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 13:04:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11342 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:04:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11302 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:04:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-212.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.212]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA27610; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:04:39 GMT Message-ID: <3557527F.CF116107@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:33:19 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG PLEASE tell me how to improve it in your eyes, then? Bear in mind the previous statements that previous surveys have not worked and that the registration form doesn't work much better. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 13:04:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11369 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11327 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:04:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-212.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.212]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA83770; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:04:26 GMT Message-ID: <355751C0.660A9EB6@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:30:08 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Advocay: Pro Choice Tax! References: <199805091903.MAA12248@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > to a good humanitarian cause (Terry , there is no limit on the > number of words for your letter so go nuts) > > Happy Protest! > Amancio Hey, now wait a minute, Amancio! My ISP will bounce any message over 2 megabytes! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 13:05:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11434 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:05:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11345 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:04:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-212.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.212]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA09738; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:04:43 GMT Message-ID: <355753B0.9E0CB0D5@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:38:24 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Bresina CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Who said unsolicited? The idea is to have everybody forward it to their FreeBSD friends, nothing more or less. We are not marketing the product, we are surveying present users. I should say that I am glad people are speaking up. I want to know what you think. As it is now, the tenor of the thread is becoming more negative, but I haven't sen any better ideas show up that will accomplish the goal of getting a better head-count of FreeBSD systems in use out there. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 13:06:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12041 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:06:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12019 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 13:06:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-212.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.212]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA47662; Mon, 11 May 1998 20:04:47 GMT Message-ID: <35575494.58A85541@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:42:12 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Henderson CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal References: <3554A40B.1CCAEDBD@ibm.net> <199805100232.TAA13368@implode.root.com> <19980510121717.F12200@freebie.lemis.com> <3555AF21.909EFEC@ibm.net> <3556BEB8.6A78D4AD@internationalschool.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG All right, you've all convinced me to limit it -- for now -- to the web-based system. When that runs out of steam, we'll reconsider the subject. I'll put together the forms and the back-end code this week and post them on my machine at work. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 15:08:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00764 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:08:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (root@mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00753 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 15:08:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id SAA60680; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:08:32 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3557527F.CF116107@ibm.net> References: Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 18:12:01 -0400 To: dwilde1@ibm.net From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Improving results of registration forms Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:33 PM -0700 5/11/98, Don Wilde wrote: > PLEASE tell me how to improve it in your eyes, then? Bear in mind > the previous statements that previous surveys have not worked and > that the registration form doesn't work much better. I wonder what could be done to improve the response-rate of a registration form. And at this point, I have to make the embarrassing admission that I haven't seen whatever registration form there is. My main use of FreeBSD (so far) is to take parts of it and get them working on a variety of unix platforms here at RPI. So, I haven't ever actually installed FreeBSD to see a registration form. (I've *tried* to install it several times under various versions of VirtualPC on a PowerMac, and I *intend* to install it on a new PentiumPro machine I'm buying, but at the moment I haven't done any installs of my own). I assume that any registration is a URL to a web page at www.freebsd.org. What does that look like? Also, what kind of performance do people see when they connect to www.freebsd.org? (by "people", I mean "people on this mailing list"). There are times when it's frustratingly slow for me, but I don't know if that's just a function of the path between RPI and that site, or if I just happen to check at busy times of the day. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.its.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 18:23:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02805 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:23:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02788; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:23:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@taki.net) Received: from localhost (ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA17898; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:23:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cheddar.netmonger.net: ted owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:23:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Stein X-Sender: ted@cheddar.netmonger.net To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG cc: mtr@eclipse.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Let's Get FreeBSD Some Recognition Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Those who watch the -chat mailing list will notice all the messages back and forth about so-and-so supporting Linux and not FreeBSD. The most prominent, that I've seen, is Netscape. As a large portion of the world knows, Netscape's "Engineering Pit" has the bus sign connected to the SGI. I'm not usually into this method of action, but if we bug them enough.. Send messages along the lines of "Give FreeBSD a chance", or whatever your heart desires.. Another thing I wanted to bring up without another post is something I saw in a post last week. In comparison of FreeBSD and Linux, I saw something like "We are both anti-Microsoft". I'd personally have to disagree there. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am certainly not against Microsoft. Above all, it does not further our efforts, as FreeBSD fans/advocates, to insult another OS, the most popular, nonetheless. Do us all a favor, focus on FreeBSD. We want to push FreeBSD because we LOVE FreeBSD, not because we HATE Microsoft. Leave them out of it. Ted Stein http://www.taki.net CGI/Backend ted@taki.net taki solutions Web Design & Hosting "What goes around usually gets dizzy and falls over." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 18:25:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03153 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:25:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03130; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:25:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@taki.net) Received: from localhost (ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA17944; Mon, 11 May 1998 21:25:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cheddar.netmonger.net: ted owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:25:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Stein X-Sender: ted@cheddar.netmonger.net To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG cc: mtr@eclipse.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Oops.. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In my mindlessness, I left out the URL for Netscape's bus sign. http://people.netscape.com/mtoy/sign/index.html Ted Stein http://www.taki.net CGI/Backend ted@taki.net taki solutions Web Design & Hosting "What goes around usually gets dizzy and falls over." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 18:31:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04063 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:31:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail3.mailsorter.net (mail3.mailsorter.net [207.67.128.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA04044 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:31:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kriston@ibm.net) Received: from slip.dc.us.ibm.net ([166.72.74.46]) by mail3.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA14458 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:30:22 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:02:14 -0400 Message-ID: <6824-Mon11May1998210214-0400-kriston@ibm.net> From: kriston@ibm.net (Kriston J. Rehberg) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <199805101059.DAA01506@rah.star-gate.com> References: <199805100839.CAA16237@lariat.lariat.org> <199805101059.DAA01506@rah.star-gate.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, I'm a web developer, and I'm fairly impressed by the current freebsd.org. Of course, it could be made more impressive to Johnny Corporate. If it makes you feel better, freebsd.org is not as horribly presented as openbsd.org, which looks like a throw-away student web page compared to almost anything else. But back to freebsd.org. There isn't much advocacy there. The search engine is atrocious; the way it follows threads is by searching on Message-ID and it just doesn't seem to work. The selection of the search criteria, as well as whether to search mailing lists or manuals, is just too darn chatty and prone to user errors (like, "Wait, I didn't search the mailing list, what's going on?"). Just my opinion. You can tear apart my web site if you feel like you have to. Kris Amancio Hasty writes: >The challenge is to change the sleeper type attitude on this group with >respect to marketing and to get advocacy type messages out on the >world . > >For example, we *really* need to change http://www.freebsd.org >to convey a feeling of activity and success around FreeBSD. I posted >a simple request for someone to volunteer to revamp the web page and >got ZERO response. Why is that? Is it because the group is lazy when >it comes to promoting FreeBSD , the group does not understand the >importance of demonstrating the capability and success of FreeBSD, or >we don't have any web developers? I sincerely believe that the >answer to my question is (a) we are lazy when it comes to promoting >FreeBSD. > >Now, if this was a Linux forum , I bet we would have had by now several >dozen volunteers for the task . I believe thats the biggest difference >between FreeBSD and Linux . > > > Amancio > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > -- Kriston J. Rehberg AOL: Kriston http://kriston.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 18:31:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04072 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:31:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail3.mailsorter.net (mail3.mailsorter.net [207.67.128.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA04046 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kriston@ibm.net) Received: from slip.dc.us.ibm.net ([166.72.74.46]) by mail3.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA14490 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 18:30:33 -0700 Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 21:16:52 -0400 Message-ID: <2980-Mon11May1998211652-0400-kriston@ibm.net> From: kriston@ibm.net (Kriston J. Rehberg) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal In-Reply-To: <3555B16A.EB1E288D@ibm.net> References: <199805100914.LAA02183@greenpeace.grondar.za> <3555B16A.EB1E288D@ibm.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG No chain letters, please. Did you get this idea from those "Bill Gates will give each of us a free copy of Windows 98" chain letters? Email surveys are just wrong. The questionnaire when you install FreeBSD is bad enough. When I saw that at the end of my installation, I got the feeling that the FreeBSD people were begging for some kind of acceptance. That's pathetic. The product should speak for itself -- for example, it should be a one-step installation process that actually knows when and when not to use PS/2 mice (my copy of 2.2.5 had no clue) and can actually allow me to tell it what IRQ my NE2000 card lives on, or maybe probe it (it didn't do either of those). I had no idea at the time that I had to rebuild my kernel just to get a stupid PS/2 mouse and a NE2000 card working correctly, and I've been using Unix in various forms for almost ten years now. I mean, really, PS/2 mice and NE2000 cards are among the very most popular and standard PC components for at least a couple of years. All of the Linux distributions automatically took care of these simple details, just to name two examples. Of course, we're far ahead of NetBSD in that area, but that's like saying our VW Rabbit goes faster than their Yugo. Rather than searching for acceptance, the product should be polished. Because FreeBSD has a singular distribution source with a central authority (along with established distribution channels and way-cool FTP installation and public CVS), it has the unique ability to publish a one-disk-fits-all product that can be plonked into any old, dust-collecting 486 PC and magically turn it into a file server, firewall, or hobby box... to say nothing of huge enterprise servers! Let's push for that and stop talking about propaganda schemes. The news will get out on its own. Linux already has a very poor reputation among those in-the-know due to the many and disparate distributions out there (especially with the current flack about migrating to glibc2 -- the author of one Linux distribution refuses to do it, while RedHat has already hacked up an early beta of glibc2 which makes its binaries incompatible with all other Linuxes). FreeBSD is in the perfect position for standardization, too. Let's go for it! Regards, Kris Don Wilde writes: >> >> ... apart from the fact that many ISP's ban any form of chain letter. >> >I'll modify the text to be more specific in intent. Obviously, we don't >want this broadcast because once the hordes from The Other Side were to >get it, I'd be mailbombed with '-500' letters. I don't want it _posted_ >anywhere but freebsd-questions. Where it goes from there I would hope >would be friend to friend. > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > -- Kriston J. Rehberg AOL: Kriston http://kriston.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 19:18:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10093 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:18:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10079 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:18:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id TAA16790; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:18:44 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id TAA10635; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:17:15 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal In-Reply-To: <2980-Mon11May1998211652-0400-kriston@ibm.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 11 May 1998, Kriston J. Rehberg wrote: >No chain letters, please. You are a bit slow on the draw today Kriston. :) Mr Wilde has gracefully recanted the email version of the survey. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon May 11 19:48:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA14223 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA14180 for ; Mon, 11 May 1998 19:48:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-56.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.56]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id CAA22688; Tue, 12 May 1998 02:48:19 GMT Message-ID: <3557B205.E480CA5F@ibm.net> Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:20:53 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal References: <199805100914.LAA02183@greenpeace.grondar.za> <3555B16A.EB1E288D@ibm.net> <2980-Mon11May1998211652-0400-kriston@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG All right, the results are in. Unscientific opinion surveyed from those who cared enough to speak up says we only do a web ### form. I will create such, and we will move on to the next idea. BTW, I am also really aligned with your other comments. If you follow my earlier threads, you will see that ease-of-install, especially in PC-workstation configuration, is a major peeve of mine. I have started to examine the sysinstall source with an eye to understanding and revamping it. I have put that aside temporarily because it is important to me as one of the original requestors of the -advocacy list to start generating concrete results. We need to show the rest of the FreeBSD Project participants (this means all of everybody on these lists as well as code contributors) that this list is worth something to the project and not just another bullshit line like -chat. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 00:18:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA19534 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:18:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gwdu60.gwdg.de (gwdu60.gwdg.de [134.76.10.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19446; Tue, 12 May 1998 00:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de) Received: from localhost (kheuer@localhost) by gwdu60.gwdg.de (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA17138; Tue, 12 May 1998 09:17:41 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:17:41 +0200 (CEST) From: Konrad Heuer To: Ted Stein cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, mtr@eclipse.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Let's Get FreeBSD Some Recognition In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 11 May 1998, Ted Stein wrote: > saw something like "We are both anti-Microsoft". I'd personally have to > disagree there. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am certainly not > against Microsoft. Above all, it does not further our efforts, as FreeBSD > fans/advocates, to insult another OS, the most popular, nonetheless. Do us > all a favor, focus on FreeBSD. We want to push FreeBSD because we LOVE > FreeBSD, not because we HATE Microsoft. Leave them out of it. I agree. Konrad Heuer // Gesellschaft fuer wissenschaftliche Datenverarbeitung mbH // Goettingen (GWDG), Am Fassberg, D-37077 Goettingen, Germany // // kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 01:47:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29463 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:47:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from main_sd1.artnetonline.com ([194.75.26.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA29453 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 01:47:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di05hh.bonline.net (di05hh.bonline.net [194.75.27.133]) by main_sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id da311639 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 10:46:24 +0200 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:47:50 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: Lars Gerhard Kuehl To: Konrad Heuer Subject: Re: Let's Get FreeBSD Some Recognition Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, mtr@eclipse.net, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Ted Stein Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12-May-98 Konrad Heuer wrote: > On Mon, 11 May 1998, Ted Stein wrote: > >> saw something like "We are both anti-Microsoft". I'd personally have to >> disagree there. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am certainly not >> against Microsoft. Above all, it does not further our efforts, as FreeBSD >> fans/advocates, to insult another OS, the most popular, nonetheless. Do us >> all a favor, focus on FreeBSD. We want to push FreeBSD because we LOVE >> FreeBSD, not because we HATE Microsoft. Leave them out of it. > > I agree. I do not. Forget to LOVE as well as to HATE - at least in this context. All these terms advertise FreeBSD as sandpit and its developers and supporters as lovely, playing children. Linux, much better described by that terms, has past that stage. For that reason it has got a market which must be aimed at. To be adult means not to be only fascinated by fire but to be able to manage it. Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Ph: +49 40 54768010 Lars Gerhard Kuehl Fx: +49 40 54768012 Mo: +49 171 9307085 EDV-Beratung Em: kuehl@lgk.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 03:13:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA08616 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 03:13:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA08573 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 03:13:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21698; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:12:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3558208A.608FBFBA@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:12:26 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: drosih@rpi.edu CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Improving results of registration forms References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > > PLEASE tell me how to improve it in your eyes, then? Bear in mind > > the previous statements that previous surveys have not worked and > > that the registration form doesn't work much better. > > I wonder what could be done to improve the response-rate of a > registration form. If it's not already, make sure the help page is displayed before the form, and add a note saying that the registration will be queued for when you manage to get internet email to work :-) < slightly out of context :-) > > What does that look like? Name, Address, Email, Do you want printed/emailed FreeBSD announcements, do you want commercial FreeBSD-related emails. Very quick to fill in. The problem is, this is at a stage when very few people have a working 'net connection... > Also, what kind of performance do people see when they connect to > www.freebsd.org? pretty good, despite being the other side of quite a lot of water :-) of course the UK ones work better for me... try looking at some mirrors with traceroute to see which is nearest for you. Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 08:43:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22665 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:43:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from krell.webweaver.net (krell.webweaver.net [206.24.106.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22658 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nmh@krell.webweaver.net) Received: (from nmh@localhost) by krell.webweaver.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28493 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 12 May 1998 08:55:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Nicole H." Message-Id: <199805121555.IAA28493@krell.webweaver.net> Subject: MS: Maybe not major, but... (fwd) To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:55:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ----- Forwarded message ----- Another example that marketing can't solve everything for M$. Subject: Tidbit - NT Causes Banking Crisis Check out Some excerpts: "Certain major banks across the world are counting the cost of an ill-judged migration to Microsoft's Windows NT. The two banks, the Commonwealth Bank of Australia and the National Westminster Bank (NatWest) in the UK planned to move to NT for strategic systems projects." "... the Commonwealth Bank of Australia, a key Windows NT user site, has sacked the manager responsible for its introduction because of implementation failures and spiraling costs. A few years ago Microsoft started asking "Where do you want go today?" Well, I'm sure these companies didn't want to go where it took them :-) Conal Walsh Correct Procedures Toronto, Canada Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:04:52 -0000 From: John Halbig Subject: Tidbit - Front Page '98 Daymare Keyword: Advocacy, Windows Daymares This tidbit is from: Kevin Connery, >From Microsoft's network: May 5 * A confusing command in Microsoft Corp.'s FrontPage 98 could cause users to delete the entire contents of their hard drive--including the operating system--although the company knows of only one person who's been affected so far. Full story available at The worst part is Microsoft's response: "Microsoft is not posting any patch for the problem because it's not a programming glitch." __________________________ Digital Guy Sez: And check out this followup on ZDNet: Nicole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 11:06:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20105 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:06:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail3.mailsorter.net (mail3.mailsorter.net [207.67.128.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20073 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:06:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kriston@ibm.net) Received: from slip.dc.us.ibm.net ([204.148.99.176]) by mail3.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA13709 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 11:05:32 -0700 Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:05:25 -0400 Message-ID: <8886-Tue12May1998140525-0400-kriston@ibm.net> From: kriston@ibm.net (Kriston J. Rehberg) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal In-Reply-To: <3557B205.E480CA5F@ibm.net> References: <199805100914.LAA02183@greenpeace.grondar.za> <3555B16A.EB1E288D@ibm.net> <2980-Mon11May1998211652-0400-kriston@ibm.net> <3557B205.E480CA5F@ibm.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It sounds great! Of course, it's easy for me to complain, since I know very little about coding device drivers :) Kris Don Wilde writes: >All right, the results are in. Unscientific opinion surveyed from those >who cared enough to speak up says we only do a web ### form. I will >create such, and we will move on to the next idea. > >BTW, I am also really aligned with your other comments. If you follow my >earlier threads, you will see that ease-of-install, especially in >PC-workstation configuration, is a major peeve of mine. I have started >to examine the sysinstall source with an eye to understanding and >revamping it. I have put that aside temporarily because it is important >to me as one of the original requestors of the -advocacy list to start >generating concrete results. We need to show the rest of the FreeBSD >Project participants (this means all of everybody on these lists as well >as code contributors) that this list is worth something to the project >and not just another bullshit line like -chat. > >--> Don > > > -- Kriston J. Rehberg AOL: Kriston http://kriston.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 14:58:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03462 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:58:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [209.133.83.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA03395 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 14:57:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 8828 invoked by uid 24); 12 May 1998 21:57:51 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980512150540.007cedd0@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:05:40 -0700 To: Konrad Heuer , Ted Stein From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: Re: Let's Get FreeBSD Some Recognition Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:17 AM 5/12/98 +0200, Konrad Heuer wrote: >On Mon, 11 May 1998, Ted Stein wrote: > >> saw something like "We are both anti-Microsoft". I'd personally have to >> disagree there. I don't know about the rest of you, but I am certainly not >> against Microsoft. Above all, it does not further our efforts, as FreeBSD >> fans/advocates, to insult another OS, the most popular, nonetheless. Do us >> all a favor, focus on FreeBSD. We want to push FreeBSD because we LOVE >> FreeBSD, not because we HATE Microsoft. Leave them out of it. > >I agree. Me too. Let me also make the almost heretical claim that it would be in FreeBSD's interests, I believe, to start supporting some of Microsoft's API's. ActiveDirectory; NTFS; SMB. No, not NetBEUI :) Strategically speaking, if I had as my mission "get FreeBSD used in server systems in corporate America", I'd be doing everything I could to make it as easy as possible for someone running NT to switch to FreeBSD with little or no loss in functionality or interoperability. Once they've made the switch you can start talking them into using better API's and protocols :) Note that this is *not* the same as simply doing Win32 emulation; I think it'll be a long time before Win32 emulation is fully working (it may never be, simply due to MS changing standards) and can perform at the same speed as NT itself on similar hardware. Instead, find out what it takes to support NTFS as a native file system; to integrate Samba into the kernel; to build ActiveDirectory on top of an LDAP server. "But that's not the job of an OS vendor" you might say, "those are all applications!" Unfortunately MS has blurred the line between the two completely, so any approach has to be holistic. The really nice part about this strategy is that by and large the conversion won't require *any* new hardware, which is usually the most significant investment in any corporate MIS situation, save for the human expense. "Embrace and extend". Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- pure chewing satisfaction brian@apache.org brian@hyperreal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 17:01:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29760 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 17:01:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tok.qiv.com (/r97nnKg8+8eohVmiqzYZ0nhiqdb+WtH@tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29647 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 17:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with UUCP id SAA02411 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:59:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA01222 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 18:57:18 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:57:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: This is intolerable: RE: www.openbsd.com animation (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is not advocacy -- this is garbage. This is the type of "effort" that make's all of us look like pubescent idiots. whois openbsd.com, if you're curious. -- Jay ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:53:41 -0400 From: Rick Ballard To: misc@openbsd.org Subject: www.openbsd.com animation Someone at http://www.openbsd.com seems to have something against openbsd, since they have an animated gif of a character pissing on the openbsd daemon icon. -- Rick Ballard Software Kinetics Ltd. Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 17:48:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09081 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 17:48:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA09075 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 17:48:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-10.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.10]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA103760; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:48:20 GMT Message-ID: <3558EDB6.D3986923@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:47:50 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Behlendorf CC: Konrad Heuer , Ted Stein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Let's Get FreeBSD Some Recognition References: <3.0.3.32.19980512150540.007cedd0@hyperreal.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brian Behlendorf wrote: > ActiveDirectory; NTFS; SMB. No, not NetBEUI :) Strategically speaking, if > I had as my mission "get FreeBSD used in server systems in corporate > America", I'd be doing everything I could to make it as easy as possible > for someone running NT to switch to FreeBSD with little or no loss in > functionality or interoperability. Once they've made the switch you can > start talking them into using better API's and protocols :) I agree. This has been my approach. I use SAMBA for SMB, but it would be nice to have NTFS as well. On an experimental basis, my PC users are linking through my SMABA server to get controlled access to our CAD server (NT), so that I do all the system admin and user control. It's working well, we're ready for deployment. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 19:39:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24567 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:39:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24561 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 19:39:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA01265; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:08:51 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980513120851.D20153@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:08:51 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jay Nelson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This is intolerable: RE: www.openbsd.com animation (fwd) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jay Nelson on Tue, May 12, 1998 at 06:57:17PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 12 May 1998 at 18:57:17 -0500, Jay Nelson wrote: >> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:53:41 -0400 >> From: Rick Ballard >> >> Someone at http://www.openbsd.com seems to have something against >> openbsd, since they have an animated gif of a character pissing on >> the openbsd daemon icon. > > This is not advocacy -- this is garbage. This is the type of "effort" > that make's all of us look like pubescent idiots. > > whois openbsd.com, if you're curious. Well, I recognise the graphics--last year it was the Microsoft Internet Exploder he was pissing on. But what's the connection with Jay Richmond? I recognize the name, but that's about all. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 20:45:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01315 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@mail.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01269 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 20:45:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id XAA09625; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:44:51 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:44:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Greg Lehey cc: Jay Nelson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This is intolerable: RE: www.openbsd.com animation (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19980513120851.D20153@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tue, 12 May 1998 at 18:57:17 -0500, Jay Nelson wrote: > >> Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:53:41 -0400 > >> From: Rick Ballard > >> > >> Someone at http://www.openbsd.com seems to have something against > >> openbsd, since they have an animated gif of a character pissing on > >> the openbsd daemon icon. > > > > This is not advocacy -- this is garbage. This is the type of "effort" > > that make's all of us look like pubescent idiots. > > > > whois openbsd.com, if you're curious. > > Well, I recognise the graphics--last year it was the Microsoft > Internet Exploder he was pissing on. But what's the connection with > Jay Richmond? I recognize the name, but that's about all. > Someone who _really_ likes the pissing-guy animation. If you follow the whois info to SYSC.COM, you find him yet again. Purile at best.... Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 21:10:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04851 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:10:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@mail.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04831 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 21:10:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id AAA09715 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:10:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:10:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: "anything from [a SPARC] running Solaris to a 386 PC running FreeBSD" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi fellow advocates, Not that much of the content is news to us, I thought you all might find it refreshing to see FreeBSD appear as the first free OS mentioned an rather enjoyable article for a change. (Yes, Linux does appear later on...) http://www.ncworldmag.com/ncworld/ncw-05-1998/ncw-05-nextten.html cheers, Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 22:10:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11832 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:10:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw00.execpc.com (mailgw00.execpc.com [169.207.16.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11789 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:10:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from john (androzani-2-17.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.92.145]) by mailgw00.execpc.com (8.8.8) id AAA20499 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:10:25 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <199805130010240788.00CCE456@mailgate.execpc.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Evaluation Version 2.40.41.04 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:10:24 -0500 From: "Frank Pawlak" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSD vs Linux Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have been watching the unfolding of recent events in the "Open Source" world and the various postings regarding FreeBSD not getting its' deserved recognition with great interest. There is a sense of a great deal of frustration with Linux getting all the press and BSD sits there like the frog waiting to be kissed by a princess and turned into a prince. The thought occurs that something is wrong here, something fundamental that goes back to the advent of Linux. I think if we can understand what that something is we may be able to get a grip on the issues and get FreeBSD the recognition it deserves. Yes, I am playing the part of the curmudgeon. Yes I expect this post to get shot all to hell. But my intention is to stimulate some serious thinking as to why things are as they are in the world of open source operating systems. What was it that attracted all the attention to what was in essence a make over of Minux, given that BSD was already in existence? It doesn't appear that there were or are restrictions in BSD on kernel and subsystem development or were there? It appears that BSD hackers as well as users are for the most part an older group in contrast to the Linux community. What was or is it that attracted the attention of the young hackers to Linux and not to BSD? That fundamental something that I am seeking is the key to the almost fanatical growth and creation of the illusion that Linux is the "cream" of the "open source" operating systems. Or, is it in fact not an illusion at all? Why did Linux, late to the game, blow by BSD like shit through a tin horn, and now is everybody's darling? Why is it that every time the question of why one or the other is the better OS comes up, even on the BSD NG, no definitive answer is given? Does all of this condense into just a matter of hackers tearing at each other's throats? There is an on going flame war over the benefits of the GPL vs the Berkeley License. I am not an expert on this issue, but it is readily apparent that the differences are significant as to which allows the greater freedom, yet the Linux hacker opts for the more restrictive license. I don't get it! A System V clone with more restrictive licensing is attracted to a group of vocal "young turks" that go on and beat the bejabbers out of a better, more mature, operating system with less restrictions on licensing. Something is terribly wrong here. Something doesn't square. The answer appears to be that when Linux was first released to the Internet community there was a lot of stuff to be hacked, and hack people did. The hackers turned into a cultist camp following. BSD meanwhile was already there, old wood, a basically finished product with a few holes to be filled where AT&T code had been stripped. For some reason the young hacker were not attracted to the development of BSD and thus no camp following developed. The story does not end there. Linux attracted no press, it was still a hackers OS. The Linux hackers published, founded their own journal, the BSD crowd did not. Until Caldera and RedHat were formed Linux was still an unimportant OS. Didn't show up on any radar screens. Slackware was there, but commercial use, no. Arises that ugly word, marketing. Marketing. That's what we are looking for. Linux is now actively marketed. There is money behind it. And now it is attracting more attention and money. Outside of BSDI, BSD marketing is a no show. We clamor amongst ourselves for more marketing efforts, and good ideas have come and gone, yet nothing concrete has happened in the past five or six weeks. The fact remains that FreeBSD is either not actively market, mis-marketed or both. I, in the recent past, got the hell slapped out of me for proposing a marketing plan to the group. I liked the pain so much that I'm going to do it again. FreeBSD Advocacy is never going to amount to a tinker's damn until those of use willing to actively work at marketing are united with the development team in common goals and objectives. Anything less is nothing more than rant secessions..... We have to put a stake in the ground as to where we are going to be in the future, set mile stones to be met to keep us on track, and then we'll have something to release to the press. The idea that the advocacy group does their thing and the development team does theirs is pure eyewash. Allow me to re-phrase that, pure horse shit. Jordan has suggested that those with a penchant for writing create a document that defines the qualities that distinguish FreeBSD from other operating systems, and from the above it appears that this is long over due. This document could well become the vehicle to attract the attention of product managers and get software ported to FreeBSD and get our just rewards. Ranting to product manager after business plans have been set will not get it done, and is very unprofessional. I have read in an article listed on BSDI's web page that they have something like 7,000 customers running over 75,000 servers. We must have at least that number, yet much commercial server software is either included in their release or is available for it. I look at this and think why! Why not us? Is our BSD different significantly different than theirs? I wonder if it is not a matter of getting in the face of product managers with FreeBSD. Past posts to this mailing list indicate that it is the core team's intention to go after the server market, and leave the desktop market to Linux. I would question the soundness of going solely in that direction. Sun is losing market share to NT in the low end of the workstation market, an it appears that there could be an opportunity to get a piece of that action. FreeBSD on Intel offers a large advantage in terms of cost and performance over NT, and keeps UNIX in the workstation market. The problem is the dearth of commercial FreeBSD apps just as in the server market. So what to do?? I am toying with the idea of getting in front of product managers and educating them to the advantages of porting to FreeBSD. The cost of FreeBSD compared to BSDI or NT would give them price and performance advantages over their competitors. This is where Jordan's suggestion could bear fruit. This is an idealistic idea, but what the hell is there in life if not idealism. In my time I have campaigned new products to market, but in candor have never attempted something of this magnitude. I am not sure how to approach product managers to get their attention. However, I wonder if installed base or product quality is what really matters in getting commercial stuff running on an OS. In the office suite arena, yes the numbers game applies, but in terms of firewalls, mail systems, development tools, CAD/CAM tools, and the like, is it numbers or the quality of the platform that matters. Is it possible to flesh out and work a plan of this nature? If we can make something like this work, it may mean and end run to commercial recognition.. It is to an extent true that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Linux is doing a great job of getting open source recognition in the commercial world, and this is to our mutual benefit. But sooner or later that friend could turn and bury us under its' glitter. I fear that process may already be under way. OK now get out the silver bullets Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 22:51:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17047 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:51:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16992 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:51:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA04218; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805130549.WAA04218@implode.root.com> To: "Frank Pawlak" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 00:10:24 CDT." <199805130010240788.00CCE456@mailgate.execpc.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 22:49:00 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >What was it that attracted all the attention to what was in essence a make >over of Minux, given that BSD was already in existence? It doesn't appear >that there were or are restrictions in BSD on kernel and subsystem >development or were there? It appears that BSD hackers as well as users >are for the most part an older group in contrast to the Linux community. >What was or is it that attracted the attention of the young hackers to >Linux and not to BSD? That fundamental something that I am seeking is the >key to the almost fanatical growth and creation of the illusion that Linux >is the "cream" of the "open source" operating systems. Or, is it in fact >not an illusion at all? Why did Linux, late to the game, blow by BSD like >shit through a tin horn, and now is everybody's darling? Why is it that >every time the question of why one or the other is the better OS comes up, >even on the BSD NG, no definitive answer is given? Does all of this >condense into just a matter of hackers tearing at each other's throats? Linux started several years before 386BSD and nearly three years before FreeBSD. Prior to 386BSD, there wasn't a freeware version of BSD available. You had to pay $20K to AT&T for a 32V (?) source license. Linus started Linux because he wanted to hack on Unix and couldn't ("because I was a poor Finish college student"). If 386BSD had been released from Berkeley just two years earlier, Linux would never have happend (according to Linus). The timing here is important because the year-to-year growth of both Linux and FreeBSD are very similar; the difference is that Linux got started building their usership years before we did. >I have read in an article listed on BSDI's web page that they have >something like 7,000 customers running over 75,000 servers. We must have Current estimates for FreeBSD's installed base is more than 5 times that and may be as high as 10 times that figure. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 22:57:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA18210 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:57:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA18192 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 22:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from john (androzani-2-17.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.92.145]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id AAA02688; Wed, 13 May 1998 00:57:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <199805130057270627.00F7F70D@mailgate.execpc.com> In-Reply-To: <199805130549.WAA04218@implode.root.com> References: <199805130549.WAA04218@implode.root.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Evaluation Version 2.40.41.04 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:57:27 -0500 From: "Frank Pawlak" To: dg@root.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thanks David, I appreciate the history and the growth run rate numbers. I really hope we can come together as a team and make some things happen. Regards, Frank *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 5/13/98, at 12:51 AM, David Greenman wrote: >>What was it that attracted all the attention to what was in essence a make >>over of Minux, given that BSD was already in existence? It doesn't appear >>that there were or are restrictions in BSD on kernel and subsystem >>development or were there? It appears that BSD hackers as well as users >>are for the most part an older group in contrast to the Linux community. >>What was or is it that attracted the attention of the young hackers to >>Linux and not to BSD? That fundamental something that I am seeking is the >>key to the almost fanatical growth and creation of the illusion that Linux >>is the "cream" of the "open source" operating systems. Or, is it in fact >>not an illusion at all? Why did Linux, late to the game, blow by BSD like >>shit through a tin horn, and now is everybody's darling? Why is it that >>every time the question of why one or the other is the better OS comes up, >>even on the BSD NG, no definitive answer is given? Does all of this >>condense into just a matter of hackers tearing at each other's throats? > > Linux started several years before 386BSD and nearly three years before >FreeBSD. Prior to 386BSD, there wasn't a freeware version of BSD available. >You had to pay $20K to AT&T for a 32V (?) source license. Linus started >Linux because he wanted to hack on Unix and couldn't ("because I was a >poor Finish college student"). If 386BSD had been released from Berkeley >just two years earlier, Linux would never have happend (according to Linus). > The timing here is important because the year-to-year growth of both >Linux and FreeBSD are very similar; the difference is that Linux got started >building their usership years before we did. > >>I have read in an article listed on BSDI's web page that they have >>something like 7,000 customers running over 75,000 servers. We must have > > Current estimates for FreeBSD's installed base is more than 5 times that >and may be as high as 10 times that figure. > >-DG > >David Greenman >Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue May 12 23:19:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20339 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:19:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA20253 for ; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:19:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13127; Tue, 12 May 1998 23:18:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805130618.XAA13127@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Frank Pawlak" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 00:10:24 CDT." <199805130010240788.00CCE456@mailgate.execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:18:51 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG It all started with the AT&T vs BSDI lawsuit it literally scared away hackers from 386bsd. We also lost Bill Jolitz mostly due to the death of his father there were other factors however I believe that was the predominant one. Imagine if the Linux community early on had lost Linus . AT&T prohibited the core team from using the BSD4.4 code so it forced the core team to move to BSD4.4-lite and the usual instabilities that come with such move . The migration took about a year. FreeBSD culture adopted a quiet type attitude and the linux culture adopted in your face type attitude of demanding people to run linux. In the meantime , the freebsd types thought that they were not quite ready for prime time and the linux folks claimed Hey I am up and running come and joins we are great we are fantastic we walk on air! Let us warp in time to 1997: 1. Whistle wins best network appliance at Comdex's fall '97 and FreeBSD gets 0 recognition or mention. http://www.freebsd.org fails to capture the moment. 2. David Filo co-founder of Yahoo writes a nice article pro FreeBSD however the article literally goes unnoticed. 3. http://www.thinker.org goes on-line perhaps the single largest image database in the world and gues what it is all FreeBSD. Additionally, we have failed to market ftp.freebsd.org which is also probably the biggest ftp site in the world. 3. Corel announces NC for Linux! NCI has been deploying NC Client (NetBSD) , NC Server (FreeBSD) On a Red Herring Issue where Larry Ellison was predominantly on the Front Page : Bill Gates states that NC client / server is not that feasible in the PC arena because PC servers can not serve that many clients . Larry Ellison's response: I can with my PC server < silent omission of FreeBSD) 4. Oracle's database runs on FreeBSD however it is not marketed by Oracle nor by NCI however it is used on NCI's Server. In brief, FreeBSD is not currently being recognized because we have failed to capture the moments, our great success stories are not marketed at all, and we are almost destructively silent about the prowess of FreeBSD. The good news is that currently perhaps the world is going to start looking for alternative OS solutions and since the server like orientation that our core team has taken us , we are now a strong server alternative and our desktops are very very stable. Additionally, our ports/package repository and our client/server software update cvs sup makes us a formidable platform . This is not lip service this is the way I see FreeBSD. *We need marketing and apps that is all* Enjoy, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 01:21:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10068 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 01:21:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10050 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 01:21:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07052; Wed, 13 May 1998 01:20:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Jay Nelson cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: This is intolerable: RE: www.openbsd.com animation (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 12 May 1998 18:57:17 CDT." Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:20:52 -0700 Message-ID: <7048.895047652@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is not advocacy -- this is garbage. This is the type of "effort" > that make's all of us look like pubescent idiots. Ummm. First off, there is absolutely no tie between these folks and us. They were also hosting www6.freebsd.org for awhile but after someone pointed the existance of www.openbsd.com out to us last night, that is no longer the case. I've also contacted the person directly responsible for putting up this page and asked them to take it down, a request which they politely refused, and that's about all I can do. To be honest, openbsd.com and openbsd.net should have been allocated by the OpenBSD folks if they didn't want something like this to happen since we all know how much of a free-for-all this whole registration business is. I failed to do the same thing for FreeBSD and just got lucky that freebsd.com and freebsd.net were registered by folks with our better interests at heart - it could just as easily have gone another way. Of course, the real evil here was in making the .org, .com and .net domains completely meaningless by letting anyone register whatever the hell they wanted in any of the 3, and if I were a more cynical man I would say that this was a deliberate move by the NIC to get everyone to pay 3 times for the same registration in order to keep people from launching hostile attacks against one's trademark. They've already stated that they won't remove domains due to trademark infringement which pretty much leaves it wide open for any unscrupulous person to do what was done to the OpenBSD Project. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 01:39:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA12510 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 01:39:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12495 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 01:39:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07192; Wed, 13 May 1998 01:38:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Frank Pawlak" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 00:10:24 CDT." <199805130010240788.00CCE456@mailgate.execpc.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:38:35 -0700 Message-ID: <7188.895048715@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The thought occurs that something is wrong here, something fundamental that > goes back to the advent of Linux. I think if we can understand what that > something is we may be able to get a grip on the issues and get FreeBSD the > recognition it deserves. It's pretty simple, really. They wrote lots of stuff, we didn't. They had a Matt Welsh, we didn't. > Jordan has suggested that those with a penchant for writing create a > document that defines the qualities that distinguish FreeBSD from other > operating systems, and from the above it appears that this is long over > due. This document could well become the vehicle to attract the attention > of product managers and get software ported to FreeBSD and get our just > rewards. Ranting to product manager after business plans have been set > will not get it done, and is very unprofessional. I also said that it was time for people calling for this to lead from the front by actually presenting documents of this nature to the group and asking for feedback rather than simply suggesting that somebody really really really needed to get busy in writing such docs. [Meaningful look :-)] - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 02:17:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18243 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bsd.synx.com (rt.synx.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA18186 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 02:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from <@rn.synx.com:root@synx.com>) Received: from s3.synx.com (s3 [192.1.1.247]) by bsd.synx.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA02016; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:21:15 +0100 Received: from rn by s3.synx.com id aa22418; 13 May 98 11:06 BST Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:15:45 +0200 (CEST) From: Remy NONNENMACHER Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199805130618.XAA13127@rah.star-gate.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-ID: <9805131106.aa22418@s3.synx.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 12 May, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > In brief, FreeBSD is not currently being recognized because we have > failed to capture the moments, our great success stories are not > marketed at all, and we are almost destructively silent > about the prowess of FreeBSD. > > The good news is that currently perhaps the world is going to start > looking for alternative OS solutions and since the server like > orientation that our core team has taken us , we are now > a strong server alternative and our desktops are very very > stable. Additionally, our ports/package repository and our client/server > software update cvs sup makes us a formidable platform . This is > not lip service this is the way I see FreeBSD. > > *We need marketing and apps that is all* > What i understood is that it's the time to prepare Press materials for the moment they will all start looking around for alternatives. I would have been happy collecting that but, unfortunetly, i'm not a US native and language is an important issue. However, i would be happy writting article scripts about FreeBSD usage cases in Europe i can find. Somewhere to send ?, someone to fix them ? I guess that if 20 of us do the same, we would quickly have a choice of perf cases, every-day cases, etc.. ------ FreeBSD: nil computum a me alienare puto (FreeBSD: nothing that is computer science is unknown to me) > Enjoy, > Amancio > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 04:06:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA05507 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 04:06:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from violet.csi.cam.ac.uk (exim@violet.csi.cam.ac.uk [131.111.8.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA05385 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 04:05:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk) Received: from bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk ([131.111.212.250]) by violet.csi.cam.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.92 #1) id 0yZZK8-0002v3-00; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:03:48 +0100 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:03:49 +0100 (BST) From: Ben Cohen X-Sender: bjc23@bjc23.trin.cam.ac.uk Reply-To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk To: Remy NONNENMACHER cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: <9805131106.aa22418@s3.synx.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > However, i would be happy writting article scripts about FreeBSD usage > cases in Europe i can find. Somewhere to send ?, someone to fix them ? > > I guess that if 20 of us do the same, we would quickly have a choice of > perf cases, every-day cases, etc.. I live in the UK, so the below examples are UK-biased. Let's see: ------ .ac.uk sites (UK Academic) powered by FreeBSD www.sabe.bangor.ac.uk (I don't know what this is though.) inferno.cs.bris.ac.uk (Inferno---this machine "in adition to assisting with research into photorealistic graphics...was the main development site for Gid's Games, and a number of different projects, like a multi-user chat program, and an IBM PC emulator for Unix and X Windows, and the Early worms". www.pet.cam.ac.uk (Peterhouse College, Cambridge website.) B-1000 is the student radio station of Brunel. And they use FreeBSD for broadcasting across the net. http://hirta.tay.ac.uk/index.html (Plant Biotechnology Group, University of Abertay, Dundee) http://proxy.henley-cov.ac.uk/ (Henley College, Coventry) http://virtue.dmem.strath.ac.uk/ (University of Strathclyde Transparent Telepresence Group) ------ I can't find any in .co.uk, .mil.uk (if it exists), .org.uk, .gov.uk :( ------ Others: (I nicked some of these examples from this mailing list anyway.) Yahoo! FreeBSD Walnut Creek (www.cdrom.com) FreeBSD www.altavista.com FreeBSD www.filez.com FreeBSD www.x86.org FreeBSD www.ebay.com (Auctioneers) FreeBSD ftpsearch.ntnu.no FreeBSD www.kfu.com (The Duck Pond Public UNIX) FreeBSD http://vicor-nb.com/ (Vicor/Richmond) FreeBSD http://www.chicago.com/ FreeBSD http://www.asstdc.com.au/ (Assorted C Sofftware) FreeBSD Non-FreeBSD but BSD sites: www.teletext.com 4.4 BSD www.countryside.gov.uk NetBSD University of Minnesota OpenBSD www.pathname.com BSDI www.tetraworld.com BSDI ------ I seem to remember that Hotmail was bought by Microsoft and that they tried to use NT and that it couldn't cope with the strain so they had to use FreeBSD or something...is that right? ------ I got some of the above by telnet-ing to the machines and seeing what OS was running! Is there a better way to achieve the same thing without using telnet? Others I got by typing url:ac.uk AND "powered by freebsd" in Altavista advanced search. Ben. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 06:32:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29085 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 06:32:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA28955 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 06:32:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-75.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.75]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id NAA83262; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:32:18 GMT Message-ID: <3559A0A1.9AA745A@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:31:13 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Adrian Filipi-Martin CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "anything from [a SPARC] running Solaris to a 386 PC running FreeBSD" References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG After the earlier exchange about Nick Petreley's UN*X vs. NT article, he was kind enough to accept a bribe of a copy of FreeBSD to play with. :) Friends in High Places, you know... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 06:49:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA02300 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 06:49:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA02279 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 06:49:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from radan.demon.co.uk ([158.152.75.22]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2018777; 13 May 98 13:43 GMT Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id OAA04499; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:42:38 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08594; Wed, 13 May 98 14:42:34 BST Message-Id: <3559B119.FFB05C05@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:41:29 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ben Cohen wrote: > > I seem to remember that Hotmail was bought by Microsoft and that they > tried to use NT and that it couldn't cope with the strain so they had to > use FreeBSD or something...is that right? > You're right, but it was (is) Solaris. The following was posted in -advocacy a couple of weeks ago, but it's so enteraining it bears repeating. Enjoy :-) This concerns Microsoft's purchase of one of the "free email" providers (HotMail). They give you a free account, then fill your inbox with advertising (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch). Anyway, I thought you'd be interested in this email making its' way around the company: ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:46:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Solaris calls Hotmail shots for Microsoft Great article about Microsoft being forced to use Solaris for scalability after failing with NT. Great quote from the director of architechure at Microsoft Network: "We looked at all the on-line mail services and Hotmail was far and away the best. It has the most proven and scalable architecture." -----(snip)----- Solaris calls Hotmail shots for Microsoft Microsoft has decided to get the hots for Sun and is using Solaris to run its acclaimed Hotmail web-based e-mail service instead of NT. The software giant has attempted to exchange the Sun/Solaris infrastructure of Hotmail with NT since buying it in December 1997. However, the demands of supporting 10 million users reportedly proved too great for NT, and Solaris was reinstated. In a leaked report, sources close to Hotmail said: "... its whole mail server infrastructure is Solaris. NT couldn't handle it. On the web server, they're running MP Pentiums and Apache on FreeBSD. They're moving to Solaris for threads. The engineering team did its best to run NT - and failed. The issue's being escalated." Hotmail is running Apache's /1.2.1 web server which is not available for NT due to technical difficulties. A statement on Apache's website states: "The road to Windows NT has not been a pretty one. Several attempts have been made, both by Apache Group members and outside folks, but due to a lack of stability and a clear consensus on how to manage a true cross-platform development project, NT is not yet a standard platform supported by Apache." Microsoft is currently recruiting engineers for Hotmail, but NT specialists need not apply. Hotmail's website lists vacancies for an operations software engineer and a QA engineer - and the common requirement is for Unix experience. Judy Gibbons, director of the Microsoft Network, was unaware of the hardware behind Hotmail, but said: "We looked at all the on-line mail services and Hotmail was far and away the best. It has the most proven and scalable architecture." First appeared in Network News, 22-April - 1998 ------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- > > Ben. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 07:33:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA07119 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 07:33:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA07110 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 07:33:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi [206.173.119.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id KAA18413; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:33:27 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from voyager.cris.com (voyager.concentric.net [206.173.119.82]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.8) id KAA21252; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:33:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:33:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@voyager.cris.com To: Frank Pawlak cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: <199805130010240788.00CCE456@mailgate.execpc.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Frank Pawlak wrote: > The story does not end there. Linux attracted no press, it was still a > hackers OS. The Linux hackers published, founded their own journal, the > BSD crowd did not. Until Caldera and RedHat were formed Linux was still an > unimportant OS. Didn't show up on any radar screens. Slackware was there, > but commercial use, no. Arises that ugly word, marketing. RedHat goes a long way toward making Linux viable to more users. FreeBSD doesn't have a "RedHat". FreeBSD NEEDS a RedHat. Walnut Creek is NOT being "that entity" for FreeBSD. Yes Linux has an almost rabid following, but as far as actual promotion (of the sane kind) quite a bit of it comes from commercial entities who scream at the top of their corporate lungs, "LINUX!!!" I don't think anyone who runs FreeBSD does that, at least I don't see it happening from my "consumer" chair. I had NO idea that Yahoo! and Walnut creek ran on FreeBSD until I started DIGGING to find out something about FreeBSD. The odd site here and there posts chucky on their page so it does get some coverage and before I started becoming interested, I knew it existed and I knew it was viable, but that's _it_. I did not know that it could be used for a wide variety of applications, NOR that it was viable on the desktop. So....1. Commercial Support. FreeBSD needs a "RedHat". 2. Get people interested so that they READ about FreeBSD as they do about Linux. Oh...and why do hackers go for the "more restricted license", it has, I think, more to do with a "SCREW corporate America!" attitude than anything else. They LIKE the fact that the code can't be snatched up and re-used in a restricted manner, regardless of the fact that SOME software WON'T get developed unless someone PAYS someone to do it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 08:05:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11283 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:05:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11241 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:05:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09313; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:03:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Mark Ovens cc: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 14:41:29 -0000." <3559B119.FFB05C05@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:03:31 -0700 Message-ID: <9309.895071811@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > You're > right, but > it was > (is) > Solaris. > The > following > was posted > in > -advocacy You know, it's a rare thing indeed to see people still posting mail from their Apple II machines. Kudos for being willing to stick with the older equipment! It's quite environmentally responsible of you to do so. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 08:06:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA11373 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:06:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11259 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:05:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09341; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Andrew Short cc: Frank Pawlak , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 10:33:26 EDT." Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:04:57 -0700 Message-ID: <9338.895071897@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I had NO idea that Yahoo! and Walnut creek ran on FreeBSD until I started > DIGGING to find out something about FreeBSD. The odd site here and there Hmmm. Is the freebsd newsletter really so well hidden? I'd welcome suggestions on how to make it less so. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 08:46:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18381 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:46:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18360; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:46:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA15534; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:46:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805131546.IAA15534@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 to: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG cc: freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ: Microsoft vs. the Software Industry In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 11 May 1998 08:33:32 PDT." <199805111533.IAA05539@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:46:06 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If you have not filed pleased do so , "Texas Attorney General Dan Morales who had been leading a multi state investigation of Microsoft backed off his crusade under pressure from computer-makers in his state, include Dell Computer and Compaq Computer." I don't think that I called the above law so file with the DOJ and your State Attorney and if you are a foreigner show your support and pick any State Attorney. If you have a friend or a neat forum post the letter or your opinion. If you are a linux or use a different OS file, file , file with the government! It takes less than a minute and *YOU* can make a difference . Do it and Do it now!! Amancio ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The time to act is NOW!!! I just register my complain with the California State Attorney and the DOJ. Since this is not a formal vote and it is a global concerned , all are invited to file a complain. You are not restricted to file a complain with the California State Attorney in my case it just happen to be where I live.In fact, since it is not known which State Attorney is going to file an Anti-Trust Law suit against Microsoft it is a good idea to file your complain with your local State Attorney . If you disagree with the wording of the complain feel free to modify the complain or write your own. The important aspect is to get involved and do register an opinion. All we are asking is that if the Anti-Trust Laws are applicable to be enforced in the case of the business practices of Microsoft. California state attorney's web page which I easily found thru Yahoo: http://caag.state.ca.us/ DOJ's Anti Trust Division contact web page: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/index.html ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Honor, The purpose of this letter is to ask you to block Microsoft's Win98 release until it is clear that its monopolistic practice ceases. I believe that one of the tightest strong-holds that Microsoft has on the PC industry is that Windows is bundled with virtually every PC now sold. This serves as a way to block any other competing operating system and sets the stage for application dominance by Microsoft. Enclosed is Ralph Nader's letter which was submitted to major PC manufacturers. Naturally, there was no response from the PC manufacturers. Clearly, PC manufacturers need to have reassurance that if they start distributing alternative operating systems no retribution from Microsoft will be forthcoming. To not act in this matter will clearly stiffle the creative process in the software industry. Sincereley Yours, Exhibit A This is a web pointer to a letter sent to Compaq, Dell, Gateway 2000, Hewlett-Packard, Micron, and Packard Bell-NEC. http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/compaq.html Exhibit B For further information on Microsoft's Monopolistic behavior see: http://www.essential.org/antitrust/microsoft/microsoft.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 08:48:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18803 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:48:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA18794 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:48:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from radan.demon.co.uk ([158.152.75.22]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2013340; 13 May 98 15:28 GMT Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA04842; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:27:37 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA10886; Wed, 13 May 98 16:27:34 BST Message-Id: <3559C98E.D6AE8EF9@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:25:50 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Whoops! I managed to set Netscape to wrap long lines at 0 characters! Here's the message again, hopefully more readable ;-) Ben Cohen wrote: > > > I seem to remember that Hotmail was bought by Microsoft and that they > tried to use NT and that it couldn't cope with the strain so they had to > use FreeBSD or something...is that right? > You're right, but it was (is) Solaris. The following was posted in -advocacy a couple of weeks ago, but it's so enteraining it bears repeating. Enjoy :-) This concerns Microsoft's purchase of one of the "free email" providers (HotMail). They give you a free account, then fill your inbox with advertising (there ain't no such thing as a free lunch). Anyway, I thought you'd be interested in this email making its' way around the company: ------------- Begin Forwarded Message ------------- Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:46:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Solaris calls Hotmail shots for Microsoft Great article about Microsoft being forced to use Solaris for scalability after failing with NT. Great quote from the director of architechure at Microsoft Network: "We looked at all the on-line mail services and Hotmail was far and away the best. It has the most proven and scalable architecture." -----(snip)----- Solaris calls Hotmail shots for Microsoft Microsoft has decided to get the hots for Sun and is using Solaris to run its acclaimed Hotmail web-based e-mail service instead of NT. The software giant has attempted to exchange the Sun/Solaris infrastructure of Hotmail with NT since buying it in December 1997. However, the demands of supporting 10 million users reportedly proved too great for NT, and Solaris was reinstated. In a leaked report, sources close to Hotmail said: "... its whole mail server infrastructure is Solaris. NT couldn't handle it. On the web server, they're running MP Pentiums and Apache on FreeBSD. They're moving to Solaris for threads. The engineering team did its best to run NT - and failed. The issue's being escalated." Hotmail is running Apache's /1.2.1 web server which is not available for NT due to technical difficulties. A statement on Apache's website states: "The road to Windows NT has not been a pretty one. Several attempts have been made, both by Apache Group members and outside folks, but due to a lack of stability and a clear consensus on how to manage a true cross-platform development project, NT is not yet a standard platform supported by Apache." Microsoft is currently recruiting engineers for Hotmail, but NT specialists need not apply. Hotmail's website lists vacancies for an operations software engineer and a QA engineer - and the common requirement is for Unix experience. Judy Gibbons, director of the Microsoft Network, was unaware of the hardware behind Hotmail, but said: "We looked at all the on-line mail services and Hotmail was far and away the best. It has the most proven and scalable architecture." First appeared in Network News, 22-April - 1998 ------------- End Forwarded Message ------------- > > Ben. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 08:54:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19582 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:54:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19575 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:54:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA15584; Wed, 13 May 1998 08:54:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805131554.IAA15584@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Andrew Short , Frank Pawlak , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 08:04:57 PDT." <9338.895071897@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:54:25 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG We need also to show the stats on ftp.freebsd.org . Like current thruput: 100GB/day , average number of ftp users: 3000 Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 09:17:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22637 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from uhura.concentric.net (uhura.concentric.net [206.173.119.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22624 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:17:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from marconi.concentric.net (marconi [206.173.119.71]) by uhura.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id MAA06567; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:17:03 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from mariner.cris.com (mariner.concentric.net [206.173.119.83]) by marconi.concentric.net (8.8.8) id MAA18376; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:17:02 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:17:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@mariner.cris.com To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: <9338.895071897@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I had NO idea that Yahoo! and Walnut creek ran on FreeBSD until I started > > DIGGING to find out something about FreeBSD. The odd site here and there > > Hmmm. Is the freebsd newsletter really so well hidden? I'd welcome > suggestions on how to make it less so. All I am saying is that FreeBSD isn't really on the mainstream's mind. I can only speak for myself remaining so ignorant for so long, and the fact that I only know of 2 or 3 people who I have met who actually KNOW what it is. Fewer still know why it is a good OS for a wide range of applications. I am not saying this is GOOD, but it IS what I perceive. A TON of people know the name "Linux". More still "NT", and well, every joe who has seen Technology news on CNN thinks they can talk about Windows95...and now 98. (No offense to people named Joe, nor to the Wordstar-like text editor). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 09:20:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23144 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:20:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23072 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:20:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09733; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:19:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Andrew Short cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 12:17:02 EDT." Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:19:35 -0700 Message-ID: <9730.895076375@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > All I am saying is that FreeBSD isn't really on the mainstream's mind. I But we know all that already and you're not really adding anything useful to this conversation in pointing that out. What we need here are: 1. Concrete examples of what can be done to improve the situation. 2. Actual attempts to do so. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 09:26:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24291 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:26:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA24283; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:26:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15791; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:26:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805131626.JAA15791@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: ben@rosengart.com cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ: Microsoft vs. the Software Industry In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 12:14:46 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:26:36 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Given that the Texas State Attorney has backed up off from the Microsoft vs Software Industry Trust issue, mail your comments to the Texas State attorney . Do it , Do it now and guess what ? You All are invited to mail . Got a friend ask him to email ! Texas State Attorney contact info: http://www.oag.state.tx.us/ email: dan.morales@oag.state.tx.us California state attorney's web page which I easily found thru Yahoo: http://caag.state.ca.us/ They have a contact us button DOJ's Anti Trust Division contact web page: http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/index.html email: antitrust@usdoj.gov Texas State Attorney contact info: http://www.oag.state.tx.us/ email: dan.morales@oag.state.tx.us For ease, you can always cut and paste my complain: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Your Honor, The purpose of this letter is to ask you to block Microsoft's Win98 release until it is clear that its monopolistic practice ceases. I believe that one of the tightest strong-holds that Microsoft has on the PC industry is that Windows is bundled with virtually every PC now sold. This serves as a way to block any other competing operating system and sets the stage for application dominance by Microsoft. Enclosed is Ralph Nader's letter which was submitted to major PC manufacturers. Naturally, there was no response from the PC manufacturers. Clearly, PC manufacturers need to have reassurance that if they start distributing alternative operating systems no retribution from Microsoft will be forthcoming. To not act in this matter will clearly stiffle the creative process in the software industry. Sincereley Yours, Exhibit A This is a web pointer to a letter sent to Compaq, Dell, Gateway 2000, Hewlett-Packard, Micron, and Packard Bell-NEC. http://www.essential.org/antitrust/ms/compaq.html Exhibit B For further information on Microsoft's Monopolistic behavior see: http://www.essential.org/antitrust/microsoft/microsoft.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 09:32:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25766 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:32:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA25717 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:32:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from radan.demon.co.uk ([158.152.75.22]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2020377; 13 May 98 15:58 GMT Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA04995; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:57:43 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-2) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11594; Wed, 13 May 98 16:57:40 BST Message-Id: <3559D086.B851BBEE@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:55:34 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (WinNT; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux References: <9309.895071811@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > You know, it's a rare thing indeed to see people still posting > mail from their Apple II machines. Kudos for being willing > to stick with the older equipment! It's quite environmentally > responsible of you to do so. :-) > > - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 09:33:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26018 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:33:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25963 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:33:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15840; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805131633.JAA15840@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dan.morales@oag.state.tx.us cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Microsoft Vs. Texas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 09:33:32 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Given that your State's major computer makers have succeeded in influencing the due law process, I am going to make it a point NOT to buy DELL or Compaq computers. Amancio Hasty To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 09:46:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28666 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:46:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28650 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 09:46:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00572; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:45:58 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Message-ID: <19980513184556.A517@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:45:56 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG References: <9338.895071897@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Andrew Short on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 12:17:02PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 12:17:02PM -0400, Andrew Short wrote: > A TON of people know the name "Linux". More still "NT", and well, > every joe who has seen Technology news on CNN thinks they can talk about > Windows95...and now 98. (No offense to people named Joe, nor to the > Wordstar-like text editor). My theory is that the downfall of Microsoft started when jokes about Win95 and Bill Gates started to become popular outside of 'hacker' circles. -Jeremy Ob-advocacy: Persuade Scott Adams to feature FreeBSD. With some well positioned 'Bill' puns. I'm sure he'd go for an OS that featured a daemon as it's logo... -- | ----------------------------------------------------- --+-- "What a crazy world we live in, | we save the whales yet support abortion" - MIC | ----------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 10:04:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01683 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:04:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01532 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22154 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:53:55 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3559D035.8F48B9C@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:54:13 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux References: <9338.895071897@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Hmmm. Is the freebsd newsletter really so well hidden? I'd welcome > suggestions on how to make it less so. give it a javascript button? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 10:24:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03429 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:24:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from junior.apk.net (stuart@junior.apk.net [207.54.158.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03413 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:24:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@junior.apk.net) Received: from localhost (stuart@localhost) by junior.apk.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA02896; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:24:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:24:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Stuart Krivis To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: <9730.895076375@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > All I am saying is that FreeBSD isn't really on the mainstream's mind. I > > But we know all that already and you're not really adding anything > useful to this conversation in pointing that out. What we need > here are: > > 1. Concrete examples of what can be done to improve the situation. > 2. Actual attempts to do so. Is there a central listing of FreeBSD user's groups? Sometimes grassroots support is the best. Many Linux groups have "install parties" where the more knowledgable users help people install Linux for the first time. You just bring your machine in and they will install Linux on it. I would like to see a "Newbie Guide." It might contain some install tips (particularly on network setup) and info on how to run Linux programs. PPP setup info is nice too. I hate to look at it like this, but I would only switch if I could readily run my Linux programs. (And you've heard this from me before.) Compatibility is not a good way to "sell" an OS (witness OS/2), but it's a good way to get your foot in the door. I admire things about FreeBSD, but I could never get some things to work - like the Linux compatibility. I haven't bitched about it too much. I figure that someday I will have a spare machine that I can put FreeBSd on and just play with it until it works. :-) -- Stuart Krivis stuart@krivis.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 10:39:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05456 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:39:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05445 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10093; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:38:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Stuart Krivis cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 13:24:25 EDT." Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:38:56 -0700 Message-ID: <10089.895081136@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Is there a central listing of FreeBSD user's groups? Sometimes grassroots http://www.freebsd.org/support.html > I would like to see a "Newbie Guide." It might contain some install tips Me too. Who will help Sue write it? :) > I hate to look at it like this, but I would only switch if I could readily > run my Linux programs. (And you've heard this from me before.) Hmmm. I've never had any problem running the Linux bins I've wanted to run. Which ones don't work for you? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 10:51:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07730 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:51:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07646 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 10:50:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from john (harconia-1-56.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.56]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id MAA04570; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:50:32 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <199805131250320375.007F66C9@mailgate.execpc.com> In-Reply-To: <9730.895076375@time.cdrom.com> References: <9730.895076375@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Evaluation Version 2.40.41.04 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:50:32 -0500 From: "Frank Pawlak" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com, Ashort@concentric.net Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan and All, I am as we speak working on these two critical issues. Understand, that my time is limited as is that of all the volunteer staff. The intent of my post was to get the ball rolling and gather ideas. There has been good response to several of the questions raised, such as installed base etc. I think that we have a large enough installed based with an excellent growth run rate, and Instances of FreeBSD in locations where it is being hammered on pretty hard to make a sound case for its' viability. I am working on a very rough outline for a document that makes the case for FreeBSD to be presented to ISV product managers or whom ever we need to get to in order to get some commercial action. I wonder what our chances are of trying to persuade Oracle to port their DBMS to FreeBSD? We could sure use on early adaptor or two to serve as mentors in the endeavor. Understand also that my some total of Linux/FreeBSD experience is slightly over one year. So where technological issues are concerned it could said that I have a rough time finding my backside with two hands and a tour guide. So if I make a statement or two in ignorance, a little gentle guidance would be appreciated. That said, I am still willing to devote time to this in whatever capacity I can make some valuable contribution. One last thing, the last part of my post has so far fetched zilch for response. That is the part that I expect to be torn apart and determined as good/bad idea. Also, one person was good enough to respond and expressed a concern about their command of the English language. Please don't let that stop you. If you have ideas, please express them and working together we will sort out the language things. Let's go to work Frank *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 5/13/98, at 12:16 PM, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> All I am saying is that FreeBSD isn't really on the mainstream's mind. I > >But we know all that already and you're not really adding anything >useful to this conversation in pointing that out. What we need >here are: > >1. Concrete examples of what can be done to improve the situation. >2. Actual attempts to do so. > >- Jordan > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 11:18:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14452 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:18:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail3.mailsorter.net (mail3.mailsorter.net [207.67.128.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14443 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:18:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kriston@ibm.net) Received: from slip.dc.us.ibm.net ([204.148.100.42]) by mail3.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA156 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 11:17:53 -0700 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:18:05 -0400 Message-ID: <7918-Wed13May1998141805-0400-kriston@ibm.net> From: kriston@ibm.net (Kriston J. Rehberg) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: <199805130010240788.00CCE456@mailgate.execpc.com> References: <199805130010240788.00CCE456@mailgate.execpc.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I believe part of the reason that Linux is more advocated than FreeBSD is that Linux, and the software distributed with it, is under GPL while FreeBSD is under the Berkeley license. Furthermore, most people still remember the fight that AT&T had with Berkeley that, whether you want to believe it or now, indirectly resulted in the cancellation of the BSD project and the release of the "lite" version. That stigma gives people the impression that BSD is not entirely free while the Linux distributions are. Since you spoke of commercial distributions, have you actually seen the horrendous prices that BSDI charges for licenses? They are a very far cry from the $29.95 that the Linux distributions cost (and the $39.95 that the FreeBSD disks cost). Besides the fact that visiting www.bsdi.com gives you this advertisement for nothing but "spam filter" and "internet appliance" boxes. And the fact that all of the email contacts on the pages are for reseller relations and nothing about technical support. Tech support, if you can find the page, actually requires a support contract. BSDI just seems so out of reach it's really quite remarkable. They can learn a lot from Debian Linux's free license and modest support contract fees, even Debian's support of an open, public support forum. But back to the FreeBSD advocacy issue. If it were not called "FreeBSD" or "OpenBSD" or even "NetBSD" I, as a longtime Unix user, would have thought that AnythingBSD was still under the restrictive AT&T license that BSD 4.3 and earlier suffered from. Indeed, I am still not sure (after reading all the background on the *BSD releases) which of the "big three" BSD releases came directly out of BSD4.4-Lite and which releases came from a hacked-apart BSD 4.3 made to resemble an "unencumbered" BSD 4.4-Lite without actually having arisen directly from 4.4-Lite itself. Maybe it's best that FreeBSD is called FreeBSD, but maybe for the wrong reasons -- for people like me who still remember the AT&T vs. BSD dispute and have instead advocated SVR4-alikes such as Linux which are based on free, open software. Kris -- Kriston J. Rehberg AOL: Kriston http://kriston.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 12:04:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23125 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:04:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23101; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:04:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id OAA25910; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:59:01 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:03:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Amancio Hasty cc: ben@rosengart.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ: Microsoft vs. the Software Industry In-Reply-To: <199805131626.JAA15791@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Just wanted to backup amancio's request for everyone to do this 30 second cut and paste job and mail your local Attorney General and the DOJ. I mailed the DOJ and the texas AG *MY* AG is to lame to have an email address *sigh* But I called her, but no call back yet. Everyone should do this NOW!!!!!! N-O-W!!!!!!! Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 12:13:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24894 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:13:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24887 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:13:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10815; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:12:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Frank Pawlak" cc: Ashort@concentric.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 12:50:32 CDT." <199805131250320375.007F66C9@mailgate.execpc.com> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:12:57 -0700 Message-ID: <10811.895086777@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I am as we speak working on these two critical issues. Understand, that my > time is limited as is that of all the volunteer staff. The intent of my > post was to get the ball rolling and gather ideas. I understand, and I don't mean to come across like a big wet blanket here or anything with my constant harping about tangibles, I'm just trying to get people to stay focused on the realities of what it takes to _really_ get publicity, and posting lengthy messages to this list are simply (beyond a certain point) not the way to go about it. I've sat here watching the Linux camp for close to 5 years now and what I've determined is that it's almost NONE of the "high profile" evangelists who are making the most difference there. It's all the folks whom I've never even heard of before, quiet unsung types who's postings appear in public rarely if at all, diligently working away at home on their little word processors to hit the major magazines with feature articles or editorial pieces on Linux and the phenomenon of free software (as seen through the eyes of a Linux devotee) in general. The editors of these magazines, who are as often as not DESPERATE for material, naturally eat it up. I'm sure that a large measure of the success of any Linux author doesn't come from heavy peer support or a great body of knowledge about the product (many, if not most, of Linux's print advocates have probably never even looked at the Linux kernel sources). It comes from being willing to set aside a certain number of hours a day to just write write write, even when it's the last thing one wishes to do. It comes from having the discipline to write an outline and then doggedly fill it in despite the hassles of screaming children banging on the study door and a dog throwing up pieces of frog in the hallway. Writing is NOT an easy thing to do and if it were easier, I'd have a lot more than a single mainstream magazine article under my own belt. For most of us, writing is simply a pain in the butt! :-) It also doesn't take lots of fancy statistics or even anything particularly NEW to say in order to write a good article - far from it. Sometimes just writing about something interesting you did with FreeBSD is enough and the article doesn't necessarily have to be about FreeBSD itself - you can often evangelize more effectively through focusing on something completely different and mentioning FreeBSD only in passing. People will generally respond better to this than yet another puff-piece extolling the virtues of the OS itself and you'll get the attention of people who share your definition of "interesting" far more directly than you would have otherwise. More to the point, you can cover a lot more ground. Write just about the OS and you've got maybe 3 magazines to hit up, perhaps less. Write about how the OS can be used to create a home audio mixing station, on the other hand, and you've got about 10 audio magazines and 2 or 3 do-it-yourself publications to target. :-) And on that note, I'm off to write my article about using FreeBSD and a Toshiba Libretto to create a pocket web page demonstration platform. Here's hoping that I manage to get it into something like "Yahoo Life" or "Webmaster Magazine". - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 12:27:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28061 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:27:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28023 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:27:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA28898; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:27:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:27:15 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: <9730.895076375@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG These are my thoughts. I can't do most of them, certainly not alone. I do what I can. Over the year (well, a little more) that I've been running FreeBSD, I've personally converted at least 3 people. If every one of us converted 3 people a year, above and beyond other growth, that'd add up pretty dang quick. OK, onto my spiel. On Wed, 13 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > All I am saying is that FreeBSD isn't really on the mainstream's mind. I > > But we know all that already and you're not really adding anything > useful to this conversation in pointing that out. What we need > here are: > > 1. Concrete examples of what can be done to improve the situation. > 2. Actual attempts to do so. We need to counter that penguin 'Cool! It runs with Linux' with a little daemon with a tie-dyed headband slurring out 'Groovy! It runs FreeBSD', and we need to get it on TV commercials, right after the 'Where do you want to go today?' adds. We need to convince the companies that sell parts that will work under FreeBSD to stick a little Chuckie on the box. Basically, every time I see a penguin, I want to see a daemon. I have neither the contacts nor the capital to implement this. I think the tack we need to take with hardware vendors is the 'You're marketing that your supports open source OS's to counteract a monopoly. Why not add to the multitude by sticking this cute little daemon on your package?', and when they so no, ask why? No BS about 'it's not a big enough user base to add much', every little bit is a profit, and they can't really lose any user base for that, so they're gaining. And if some conservative grass-roots group starts hounding them about satanic symbols on their box, well... I know people who weekly go to the American Family Association's web page to see which albums/movies they're ranting against this week, and use that as their gauge of what to see/buy instead of newspaper critics. If the AFA's upset about it, it must be good. I think, at this point, we really ARE in a situation where no press is bad press, in both meanings of the phrase. If I though I could keep my job and sanity by mussing up my hair, wearing a 'The End Is Near' sandwich sign, and running around town telling people 'The world is ending! The only thing you can do is repent! Oh, and here's a copy of FreeBSD', I'd be doing it in a second. Just to say 'Hey look Mom, I'm on the news!' I don't like saying something that sounds reproachful like this, but the hardware vendors etc. is a place where Walnut Creek has the weight and, I dunno, authenticity maybe? to throw around, the clout to suggest something. When you buy a peripheral, call the manufacturer's 800 suggestions/comments line and ask 'Does this work under FreeBSD?', even if you know it does (or better still, if you know it DOESNT). When you order your next computer/server, ask the place you order it from 'Can you ship that with FreeBSD on it?'. All we as individuals can do is open up awareness. Walnut Creek has to do the next step. Pardon me, I shall retreat back into my flame proof cell and pretend I can code for a while... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 12:48:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01299 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:48:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01271; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:48:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA07667; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:48:36 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA15149; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:48:36 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980513214835.64383@follo.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:48:35 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Amancio Hasty Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ: Microsoft vs. the Software Industry References: <199805131626.JAA15791@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199805131626.JAA15791@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:26:36AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 09:26:36AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Given that the Texas State Attorney has backed up off from the Microsoft vs > Software Industry Trust issue, mail your comments to the Texas State > attorney . Do it , Do it now and guess what ? You All are invited > to mail . Got a friend ask him to email ! [...] > For ease, you can always cut and paste my complain: Here is mine (though it will be more efficient if you write your own - or at least you can rewrite the first portion, which doesn't flow very well): ----- Forwarded message from Eivind Eklund ----- Message-ID: <19980513214528.05773@follo.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:45:28 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: dan.morales@oag.state.tx.us Subject: Microsoft investigation Your Honor, I hereby request that you reconsider your decision to allow Windows 98 to be released without a further investigation. This is about Microsoft using their monopoly to try to make the web part of their property (as opposed to the present state, where the basic web technology is based on common standards, viewable by everyone). If they succeed in making the Web (or even a large fraction thereof) accessible from MS-Windows only, they've managed to (a) establish a tax on information (and we'll be talking about _large_ fractions of all publicly available information), and (b) locked out all competing operating systems - thus establishing a monopoly that will be close to impossible to remove. The issues to weight this against is extreme short-term profit motives, and the slight delay of new technology deployment that the investigation will result in if (and only if) you find that their "integration"[1] is OK. This new technology is (in my opinion as a software engineer) not a radical improvement, such as the step from Windows 3.11 to Windows 95 was - it is a small, incremental change with little impact for software developers and little impact on the efficiency of end users. Weighting against a tax on information, this technology advancement is in my opinion negligible. [1] I'm using quotes here, because it is my professional estimate that creating a technical opening for "integrating" another web-browser would be less than 2000 lines extra code. In comparison, the entire Internet Explorer has in excess of 1000 times as much code (that is, more than two million lines of code). In faith of you choosing the right solution for shaping a good future, Eivind Eklund ----- End forwarded message ----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 12:59:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03253 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:59:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out5.ibm.net (out5.ibm.net [165.87.194.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03243 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 12:58:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-32.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.32]) by out5.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id TAA108982; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:58:46 GMT Message-ID: <3559FB33.92473C0A@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:57:39 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux References: <199805131554.IAA15584@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > We need also to show the stats on ftp.freebsd.org . Like current > thruput: 100GB/day , average number of ftp users: 3000 Jordan, can you put a live scrolling bar chart on FreeBSD.org from ftp.cdrom.com showing load percentage? Maybe a once-in-5-minutes update, shows last 2 hours load. Of course, if it's pegged at 3000 all the time, might be kinda dull... :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 13:03:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04423 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:03:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04394 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:03:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@taki.net) Received: from localhost (ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA18231 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:03:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cheddar.netmonger.net: ted owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:03:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Stein X-Sender: ted@cheddar.netmonger.net To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: <7188.895048715@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Jordan has suggested that those with a penchant for writing create a > > document that defines the qualities that distinguish FreeBSD from other > > operating systems, and from the above it appears that this is long over > > due. This document could well become the vehicle to attract the attention > > of product managers and get software ported to FreeBSD and get our just > > rewards. Ranting to product manager after business plans have been set > > will not get it done, and is very unprofessional. > I haven't, until now, taken a very close look into what distinguishes FreeBSD. I do, however, wish to point out The Complete FreeBSD (by Greg Lehey), which has a section on what distinguishes FreeBSD from Linux. Most of those differences work to our advantages, and, despite the fact that Greg is likely biased towards FreeBSD, the points were all true. -------+----------------------+------------------------+ /)_(\ | Ted Stein | ted@taki.net | (/. .\)| CGI/Backend | http://www.taki.net | \(T)/ | taki solutions, inc. | Web Design and Hosting | () ()|----------------------+------------------------+ ()-() | "Chicken Little only has to be right once." | -------+-----------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 13:13:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06823 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06780 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:13:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@taki.net) Received: from localhost (ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA18491 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:13:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cheddar.netmonger.net: ted owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:13:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Stein X-Sender: ted@cheddar.netmonger.net To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Andrew Short wrote: > > RedHat goes a long way toward making Linux viable to more users. FreeBSD > doesn't have a "RedHat". FreeBSD NEEDS a RedHat. Walnut Creek is NOT > being "that entity" for FreeBSD. > On the contrary. One of the things that distinguishes FreeBSD from Linux is that we DON'T have a RedHat. Nor a Slackware, a Debian, etc, for that matter. RedHat bins won't run on other systems, and the like with Slackware Debian Caldera SuSE WHATEVER. We don't want multiple distributions. > > Yes Linux has an almost rabid following, but as far as actual promotion > (of the sane kind) quite a bit of it comes from commercial entities who > scream at the top of their corporate lungs, "LINUX!!!" I don't think > anyone who runs FreeBSD does that, at least I don't see it happening from > my "consumer" chair. > > I had NO idea that Yahoo! and Walnut creek ran on FreeBSD until I started > DIGGING to find out something about FreeBSD. The odd site here and there > posts chucky on their page so it does get some coverage and before I > started becoming interested, I knew it existed and I knew it was viable, > but that's _it_. I did not know that it could be used for a wide variety > of applications, NOR that it was viable on the desktop. > True. It would definitely be nice if Yahoo! would mention somewhere that they run FreeBSD. We need to pitch to them. The daemon is rather cute, no? It'd certainly attract some mean eyes, though, but I'm sure you get my point; if a big site like Yahoo! would preach FreeBSD, to an extent, at least, we could compete (compete, not eliminate the competition) with Linux's commercial support. -------+----------------------+------------------------+ /)_(\ | Ted Stein | ted@taki.net | (/. .\)| CGI/Backend | http://www.taki.net | \(T)/ | taki solutions, inc. | Web Design and Hosting | () ()|----------------------+------------------------+ ()-() | "Chicken Little only has to be right once." | -------+-----------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 13:17:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07878 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07872 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@taki.net) Received: from localhost (ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA18606 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:17:09 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cheddar.netmonger.net: ted owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:17:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Stein X-Sender: ted@cheddar.netmonger.net To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ: Microsoft vs. the Software Industry In-Reply-To: <199805131546.IAA15534@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > If you have not filed pleased do so , > > "Texas Attorney General Dan Morales who had been leading a multi state > investigation of Microsoft backed off his crusade under pressure from > computer-makers in his state, include Dell Computer and Compaq Computer." > > I don't think that I called the above law so file with the DOJ > and your State Attorney and if you are a foreigner show your > support and pick any State Attorney. > > If you have a friend or a neat forum post the letter or your > opinion. > > If you are a linux or use a different OS file, file , file with the government! > > It takes less than a minute and *YOU* can make a difference . > Do it and Do it now!! > > This is PRECISELY the anti-Microsoft attitude that Linux has and we DON'T WANT. I hate Linux users for one reason: it's a giant bandwagon. Love Linux, hate Microsoft, and you're fine. It's a great operating system (kernel, for that matter), but it's advocates are way too radical. -------+----------------------+------------------------+ /)_(\ | Ted Stein | ted@taki.net | (/. .\)| CGI/Backend | http://www.taki.net | \(T)/ | taki solutions, inc. | Web Design and Hosting | () ()|----------------------+------------------------+ ()-() | "Chicken Little only has to be right once." | -------+-----------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 13:31:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10414 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:31:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10116 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:29:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@taki.net) Received: from localhost (ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA18911 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:29:57 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cheddar.netmonger.net: ted owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:29:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Stein X-Sender: ted@cheddar.netmonger.net To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Enough Microsoft Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Is this a list for FreeBSD advocacy suggestions, or a place to bash Microsoft? If you want us to (for example) write a letter to our state attorneys against Microsoft, pitch it out to -chat as an idea for spare time. I've seen a few good advocacy ideas come through here, definitely, and I don't mean any insult to those of you who are anti-Microsoft (and show it here) or those who aren't. I simply mean that there is a threat of "Microsoft this" and "Microsoft that" breaking out, and that's why I left Linux. -------+----------------------+------------------------+ /)_(\ | Ted Stein | ted@taki.net | (/. .\)| CGI/Backend | http://www.taki.net | \(T)/ | taki solutions, inc. | Web Design and Hosting | () ()|----------------------+------------------------+ ()-() | "Chicken Little only has to be right once." | -------+-----------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 13:58:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15264 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:58:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA15242 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:58:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id NAA28456; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:58:13 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id NAA26000; Wed, 13 May 1998 13:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:56:44 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Amancio Hasty cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Vs. Texas In-Reply-To: <199805131633.JAA15840@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: >Given that your State's major computer makers have succeeded in influencing the >due law process, I am going to make it a point NOT to buy DELL or Compaq >computers. CC to dan.morales trimmed in the interest of decorum. How, on earth, does it possibly help us to send email to a government official telling him that he is and the government he works in is corrupt? How does this advance FreeBSD? It does not advance FreeBSD or free software in any way, whatsoever. How does it help us to advertise that _we_ are not interested in two major PC manufacturers? This is not advocacy. This is vindictive. When you CC'd this list in your communication with Dan Morales you provided a de facto endorsement of your position by the entire FreeBSD community. If you really feel this way then that is your personal interaction with your government officials. Leave me out of it. I think that the the term "lazy" has been used (by you?) to describe BSD advocacy on a couple occasions. If this is what it means to _not_ be lazy, I want no part of it. Don't bash me for being "lazy" if I refuse to be vindictive. Don't mistake calm discussion for ineffective discussion. We need not be bully-ish to advance FreeBSD. I think that -advocacy should lay down some ground rules for our behaviour in the public eye. We should write it down and make everyone abide by the rules. This should be done in the interest of the image of FreeBSD. The -core is fortunate in this respect, they have leadership and organization. -Advocacy should develop the same. We should get all of our guns pointed in the right direction before we start having friendly casualties. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 14:19:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18327 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:19:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18300 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:19:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11321; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:18:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: dwilde1@ibm.net cc: Amancio Hasty , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 12:57:39 PDT." <3559FB33.92473C0A@ibm.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:18:45 -0700 Message-ID: <11318.895094325@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Already long since done by another FreeBSD advocate. :-) http://www.emsphone.com/stats/cdrom.html > > We need also to show the stats on ftp.freebsd.org . Like current > > thruput: 100GB/day , average number of ftp users: 3000 > > Jordan, can you put a live scrolling bar chart on FreeBSD.org from > ftp.cdrom.com showing load percentage? Maybe a once-in-5-minutes update, > shows last 2 hours load. Of course, if it's pegged at 3000 all the time, > might be kinda dull... :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 14:33:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21429 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:33:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21409 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id OAA30824 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:33:25 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id OAA24132 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:33:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:31:56 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Proposed Charter for -advocacy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mr. Hubbard has been consistent in his calls for activity to back up discussion. For a hodge podge of different people to be effective there should be some degree of organization. The core enjoys a degree of organization; so should advocacy. In lay terms: Let's get our stuff together as a group. I propose a charter for -advocacy. This charter will serve to transform -advocacy from a channel of communications (discussion part) about FreeBSD to an organizational unit (activity part) _within_ FreeBSD, Inc. Let's make -advocacy officially recognized as the "FreeBSD Advocacy Group". Before I propose any tenets (I have some in mind) let us first decide whether there is interest in such a charter. If there is such an interest, then we can begin the real discourse. I move that FreeBSD, Inc and its community membership begin the charter of the "FreeBSD Advocacy Group". Does anyone second the motion? Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 14:49:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24753 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:49:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24626 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:49:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from newman.concentric.net (newman.concentric.net [207.155.184.71]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id RAA04060; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:49:06 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from voyager.cris.com (voyager.concentric.net [206.173.119.82]) by newman.concentric.net (8.8.8) id RAA06090; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:49:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:49:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@voyager.cris.com To: Ted Stein cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Ted Stein wrote: > On the contrary. One of the things that distinguishes FreeBSD from > Linux is that we DON'T have a RedHat. Nor a Slackware, a Debian, etc, for I believe I said that. =) But my point was there seems to be so much talk on here about "How come we aren't as visible as Linux?" Well ONE of the really big reasons is that FreeBSD doesn't really have a mainline distributor like Linux has 10. I would venture to guess that even the great Walnut Creek sells a lot more Linux CD's than FreeBSD... In a _way_ they probably run as much on Linux as they FreeBSD. (In terms of dollars, that is). Who's to blame them for selling things that people want to buy? And on THAT note...should the different distro's of Linux be considered a different OS? The kernel on all of them is still written Linus, correct? At least the x86 kernels...not the ports to alpha, sparc, etc... > that matter. RedHat bins won't run on other systems, and the like with > Slackware Debian Caldera SuSE WHATEVER. We don't want multiple > distributions. I wouldn't want multiple distributions either. But I do think that FreeBSD needs a champion somewhere in commercial enterprise...there are a lot of businesses running quality intranets on FreeBSD but not talking about it...maybe it's so good they don't want anyone else (their competition?) getting wind of it? =) Whether that champion is Walnut Creek, Yahoo!, whomever...some company needs to step up and do this. I can't imagine the publicity if Yahoo! would put in somewhere VISIBLE on their web site the fact that they use FreeBSD! How about we strike a deal with them....something like "Ok you benefit GREATLY from FreeBSD, how about you do chucky banner ad for every 1 in 10 (or 1 in 5...whatever) searches on "Unix, Linux, Linus, Freeware, FreeBSD" and whatever MORE words you can think of. There is a very serious potential ally here. I use Yahoo for SOMETHING every single day I am online. FreeBSD has scratched Yahoo's back for a long time now...how about a return favor? > True. It would definitely be nice if Yahoo! would mention > somewhere that they run FreeBSD. We need to pitch to them. The daemon is > rather cute, no? It'd certainly attract some mean eyes, though, but I'm Yahoo gets MAJOR MAJOR hits every day...trickle the chucky banner in there once in a while Yahoo!!!!!! (when it is relevant to a particular search). > sure you get my point; if a big site like Yahoo! would preach FreeBSD, to > an extent, at least, we could compete (compete, not eliminate the > competition) with Linux's commercial support. No one is saying (I don't think) that this is a Linux v. FreeBSD thing...maybe I have seen that attitude put forth by a _few_ Linux users mostly because of the disparity between the licensing. I don't see any reason to try to eliminate Linux...why? It is quite the bleeding edge (and sometimes bleeding gums!) desktop OS...and I respect it for that. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 14:57:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25874 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:57:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25866 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:56:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id OAA24712 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:56:52 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id OAA28978 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 14:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:55:22 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: FreeBSD Network Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Do you have a FreeBSD website? Let's generate a FreeBSD web link circle. The kind of thing where people who discuss a topic on their web pages link to one another. Call it the "FreeBSD Network". Make a graphic with two littles daemons connected by some pipes. (a la ::gag:: "Network Neighborhood") This is an extension of the FreeBSD gallery concept that is distributed to increase coverage. If we can get those groups and people who use FreeBSD to put a small blurb as to "why" they chose FreeBSD, perhaps we can generate an image of a tightly knit community that really has something to offer. Most importantly, if we can get heavy hitting FreeBSD users to be part of the circle, we can influence potential adopters. Give the heavy hitters prominence in the web documents which is in their best interest and it is a win-win situation for FreeBSD and its users. Not every jane-user has a compelling reason for using FreeBSD that would influence a CEO. But those jane-users can certainly link to a document that does offer a compelling reason to use FreeBSD. If you people like this, then I will start the process. Let me know. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 15:03:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26994 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:03:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26854 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:02:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id RAA04487; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:57:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:02:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, Amancio Hasty , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: <11318.895094325@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Already long since done by another FreeBSD advocate. :-) > > http://www.emsphone.com/stats/cdrom.html Oh killer! I wasn't even aware of this one! This is going on my company's links page. Too cool! Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 15:17:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29847 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:17:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA29768 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:17:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id PAA52848 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:17:09 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id PAA31894 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:17:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:15:38 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Are we a Political Action Committee ? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Mr. Hasty's letter to Dan Morales regarding Dell and Compaq is the inspiration for this question. Are we a Politcal Action Committee? Politics are of local interest. This is a global forum. Politics are of interest to individuals and the government whom they live under. This is a group and is not beholden to any particular government. Emotive political discussion on this list can only cause division. This should not happen. As a member of this group, I am woe to be included, by default, in positions and opinions that I do not, myself, agree with. To make an incredibly graphic example, "A letter to the President of the United States: We, the members of the FreeBSD community, think that you should nuke Dubai because they don't use enough FreeBSD." Ridiculous, perhaps. Would you like it if I sent off such a letter and plastered the FreeBSD name _or your name_ all over it? -- What do you mean, No!? FreeBSD-advocacy should not be _directly_ engaged in the politics of governments. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 15:26:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02200 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:26:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA02039 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 15:26:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA07216; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:25:59 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:25:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Andrew Short cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Andrew Short wrote: > Yahoo gets MAJOR MAJOR hits every day...trickle the chucky banner in there > once in a while Yahoo!!!!!! (when it is relevant to a particular search). I seem to recall that, oh, 6 months or so ago, whenever you did a search for Linux, it spat out a FreeBSD banner at the top of the page ;) Unfortunately, I just tried that, and it spat out a Linux banner :( What changed? *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 16:05:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09617 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:05:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09582 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:04:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12155; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:04:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Proposed Charter for -advocacy In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 14:31:56 -0000." Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:04:21 -0700 Message-ID: <12151.895100661@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I move that FreeBSD, Inc and its community membership begin the charter of > the "FreeBSD Advocacy Group". Seconded. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 16:16:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12071 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:16:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12034 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:16:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id QAA10946 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:16:13 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id QAA02980 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:16:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:14:43 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Proposed Charter for -advocacy In-Reply-To: <12151.895100661@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> I move that FreeBSD, Inc and its community membership begin the charter of >> the "FreeBSD Advocacy Group". > >Seconded. > >- Jordan All in favor? Aye. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 16:17:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12245 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12234 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:17:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12241; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Andrew Short cc: Ted Stein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 17:49:05 EDT." Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:16:37 -0700 Message-ID: <12237.895101397@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > distributor like Linux has 10. I would venture to guess that even the > great Walnut Creek sells a lot more Linux CD's than FreeBSD... This is true, though FreeBSD is rapidly gaining ground. When Walnut Creek CDROM started selling FreeBSD CD dists, it was very near the bottom of their 50+ product catalog and is now the #1 product, outselling Slackware Linux though not, indeed, all the Linux products combined... YET. :-) > I wouldn't want multiple distributions either. But I do think that > FreeBSD needs a champion somewhere in commercial enterprise...there are a > lot of businesses running quality intranets on FreeBSD but not talking > about it...maybe it's so good they don't want anyone else (their > competition?) getting wind of it? =) It's usually simple conservatism at work. Free software still scares a lot of people who wear suits and this will change only slowly and as the developer community learns that the best way to stop scaring suits is to stop chasing them around with fire axes. :) > Whether that champion is Walnut Creek, Yahoo!, whomever...some company > needs to step up and do this. I can't imagine the publicity if Yahoo! > would put in somewhere VISIBLE on their web site the fact that they use > FreeBSD! How about we strike a deal with them....something like "Ok you Believe me, it's something which has already been proposed and discussed at the very highest levels of both organizations. :) For the aformentioned suit-scaring reasons, it's not likely to happen anytime soon and we're just going to have to be content for now with the fact that David Filo did at least go out on his own personal recognizance to write the article that we published in Newsletter #1. "Officially", and at the level of the various executives who's job it is to sit around worrying about the stock price all day long, they think of www.yahoo.com more in terms of $$$ per square millimeter and we don't really even register on their radar. Oh yeah, they did also give us a banner ad in rotation at Yahoo - we're not totally forsaken. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 16:40:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16186 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:40:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16160 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:40:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA00387; Thu, 14 May 1998 09:10:41 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980514091040.B320@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:10:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Proposed Charter for -advocacy References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 02:31:56PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 14:31:56 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Mr. Hubbard has been consistent in his calls for activity to back up > discussion. For a hodge podge of different people to be effective there > should be some degree of organization. > > The core enjoys a degree of organization; so should advocacy. > > In lay terms: Let's get our stuff together as a group. > > I propose a charter for -advocacy. This charter will serve to transform > -advocacy from a channel of communications (discussion part) about FreeBSD > to an organizational unit (activity part) _within_ FreeBSD, Inc. > > Let's make -advocacy officially recognized as the "FreeBSD Advocacy > Group". > > Before I propose any tenets (I have some in mind) let us first decide > whether there is interest in such a charter. If there is such an interest, > then we can begin the real discourse. > > I move that FreeBSD, Inc and its community membership begin the charter of > the "FreeBSD Advocacy Group". > > Does anyone second the motion? Sort of. The idea's good, but it seems to me that you're going about this in too formal a manner. FreeBSD is an anarchy, where people just do things. If the others like it, they say so, or at least shut up. If they don't, they shout them down. Now sure, it's a good idea to get some feedback before you go to a lot of trouble just to get shouted down. But I think the route to success here is to start up something and present it, rather than suggest starting up something. For example, a 10-line charter which can be sent to new subscribers would be a good place to start. Greg (in shouting-down mode :-) -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 16:57:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19485 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (insane@gw.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA19455 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 16:57:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) Message-ID: <19980513165708.53985@the.oneinsane.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:57:08 -0700 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Proposed Charter for -advocacy References: <12151.895100661@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74e In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 04:14:43PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.6-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If I have any say in this ;-) I third it Ron On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 04:14:43PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Wed, 13 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >> I move that FreeBSD, Inc and its community membership begin the charter of > >> the "FreeBSD Advocacy Group". > > > >Seconded. > > > >- Jordan > > All in favor? > > Aye. > > Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. > Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- -------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void -------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 17:29:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24918 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:29:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA24897 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 14958 invoked from network); 14 May 1998 00:28:37 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 14 May 1998 00:28:37 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm7-199.realtime.net [204.96.0.199]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA13477; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:28:28 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:34:57 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: dan.morales@oag.state.tx.us cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Microsoft backs down Texas? In-Reply-To: <199805131633.JAA15840@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The court decision mentioned in today's Austin American-Statesman, about Microsoft winning and the lack of resolve exhibited by those charged to uphold law is very disappointing. What your actions and those of the court means is that I will not be able to purchase a name brand computer from any merchandiser without also being forced to buy Microsoft products. I do not want anything from Microsoft. It is not reliable, is overblown, and offers nothing I do not already have. Windows 98 as described in a brief article in the recent Newsweek, "offers" the same functionality as I have had for nearly two years; Without the lack of reliability which troubled Mr. Gates recently. I run FreeBSD, a free "unix". ALL of the software I use is free, and it works. I resent the idea that in order to get a new machine I have to fill a trash dump with the cast off stuff that Microsoft forced some PC builder to buy. I will not make such a purchase. Dell, Compaq, et al will not get my business. They whined to you and you disappoint me. Free the PC maker from Microsoft so they can build the best system they can and compete. Likewise, let Microsoft compete; without built in sales. John Kenagy Austin, Texas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 17:30:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25214 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:30:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25126 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:30:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from john (harconia-2-80.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.208]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id TAA19571; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:30:09 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <199805131930080411.01ED3F2D@mailgate.execpc.com> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Calypso Evaluation Version 2.40.41.04 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:30:08 -0500 From: "Frank Pawlak" To: jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Proposed Charter for -advocacy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I will second the motion. Frank *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 5/13/98, at 5:49 PM, Jason C. Wells wrote: >Mr. Hubbard has been consistent in his calls for activity to back up >discussion. For a hodge podge of different people to be effective there >should be some degree of organization. > >The core enjoys a degree of organization; so should advocacy. > >In lay terms: Let's get our stuff together as a group. > >I propose a charter for -advocacy. This charter will serve to transform >-advocacy from a channel of communications (discussion part) about FreeBSD >to an organizational unit (activity part) _within_ FreeBSD, Inc. > >Let's make -advocacy officially recognized as the "FreeBSD Advocacy >Group". > >Before I propose any tenets (I have some in mind) let us first decide >whether there is interest in such a charter. If there is such an interest, >then we can begin the real discourse. > >I move that FreeBSD, Inc and its community membership begin the charter of >the "FreeBSD Advocacy Group". > >Does anyone second the motion? > >Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. >Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 17:45:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA28488 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:45:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28472 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:45:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ashort@concentric.net) Received: from mcfeely.concentric.net (mcfeely.concentric.net [207.155.184.83]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.8/(98/04/23 5.10)) id UAA19444; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:45:15 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from galileo.cris.com (galileo.concentric.net [206.173.119.84]) by mcfeely.concentric.net (8.8.8) id UAA21164; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:45:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:45:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Andrew Short X-Sender: Ashort@galileo.cris.com To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > I seem to recall that, oh, 6 months or so ago, whenever you did a search > for Linux, it spat out a FreeBSD banner at the top of the page ;) > Unfortunately, I just tried that, and it spat out a Linux banner :( > What changed? Don't know what changed, other than the priorities at Yahoo? I went there shortly after typing my earlier email and searched for FreeBSD and got some data communications company Ad. You'd think you'd get a "It runs HERE!" banner. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew Short Colossians 3:23 ashort@concentric.net http://www.concentric.net/~ashort/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 17:53:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29852 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:53:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from micro.internexus.net (root@internexus.net [206.152.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29842 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:52:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cliff@cliffsworld.com) Received: from mother (ppp51.internexus.net [206.152.14.243]) by micro.internexus.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA23627 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:52:37 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980513204942.008c0960@mail.internexus.net> X-Sender: compatriot@mail.internexus.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:49:42 -0400 To: FreeBSD-advocacy From: cliff ainsworth III Subject: Re: Proposed Charter for -advocacy In-Reply-To: References: <12151.895100661@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In favor...count me in.... -cliff /-------------------------------------------------------------------------\ PGP v5.0 public key "Those of you that renounce this superstitious and hysterical belief in users will be eligible to join the Warrior Elite of the M.C.P." -Tron 1982 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 18:12:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02536 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:12:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from micro.internexus.net (root@internexus.net [206.152.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02528 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:12:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cliff@cliffsworld.com) Received: from mother (ppp51.internexus.net [206.152.14.243]) by micro.internexus.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA24899 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:12:12 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980513210917.0092fe90@mail.internexus.net> X-Sender: compatriot@mail.internexus.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:09:17 -0400 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: cliff ainsworth III Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: <12237.895101397@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I have been off the *BSD mailing lists since February trying to get things here up and running before I go for investment capital. In fact I think I still owe Jordan a response/thank-you somewhere along the line. I am glad to see this advocacy group here. It looks pretty good that we are going to get what we want financially so I promise I will do everything I can to promote FreeBSD to world of suits. In fact I need to hit the jobs mailing list here soon for somebody is solid in FreeBSD and RealPlayer. I might need to out source some work for doing webcasting from Carnegie Hall in NYC. They seem excited about it. But I still need to see if we are doing just a M.I.T. or if they wanna broadcast live. If memory serves me correctly or at all...... When you do a linux search on Yahoo you get a FreeBSD banner. see ya!! -cliff /-------------------------------------------------------------------------\ PGP v5.0 public key "Those of you that renounce this superstitious and hysterical belief in users will be eligible to join the Warrior Elite of the M.C.P." -Tron 1982 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 18:13:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02727 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:13:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02699 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA16474; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805140111.SAA16474@implode.root.com> To: Amancio Hasty cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 08:54:25 PDT." <199805131554.IAA15584@rah.star-gate.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:11:32 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >We need also to show the stats on ftp.freebsd.org . Like current >thruput: 100GB/day , average number of ftp users: 3000 Actually, it's 250GB/day average, peaking to about 325GB/day on the busier days. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 18:17:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03196 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:17:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03189 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:17:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@taki.net) Received: from localhost (ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA26376; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:17:08 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: cheddar.netmonger.net: ted owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:17:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Ted Stein X-Sender: ted@cheddar.netmonger.net To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Proposed Charter for -advocacy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I most certainly do. :-) -------+----------------------+------------------------+ /)_(\ | Ted Stein | ted@taki.net | (/. .\)| CGI/Backend | http://www.taki.net | \(T)/ | taki solutions, inc. | Web Design and Hosting | () ()|----------------------+------------------------+ ()-() | "Chicken Little only has to be right once." | -------+-----------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 18:25:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04007 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:25:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03993 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:24:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA16743; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199805140122.SAA16743@implode.root.com> To: kriston@ibm.net (Kriston J. Rehberg) cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 14:18:05 EDT." <7918-Wed13May1998141805-0400-kriston@ibm.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:22:43 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >AT&T license that BSD 4.3 and earlier suffered from. Indeed, I am >still not sure (after reading all the background on the *BSD releases) >which of the "big three" BSD releases came directly out of BSD4.4-Lite >and which releases came from a hacked-apart BSD 4.3 made to resemble >an "unencumbered" BSD 4.4-Lite without actually having arisen directly >from 4.4-Lite itself. John Dyson and me did the port of the 4.4BSD-lite code that became the basis for FreeBSD 2.0. It is entirely 4.4BSD-lite - we even threw out our FreeBSD 1.x source code repository just to be sure that all traces of Pre-4.4-lite were purged. There are some pieces of code that were developed in 386BSD and FreeBSD 1.x that still remain (part of the Mach VM system and some i386 code), but these never had anything to do with AT&T/USL. As far as I know, we're the only *BSD, with the possible exception of BSDI, that can honestly claim a complete restart from scratch. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 18:40:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06043 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:40:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06035 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:40:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from mustang (pm3h-17.pacificnet.net [207.171.35.114]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA08665; Wed, 13 May 1998 18:40:28 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 18:36:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@mustang To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Proposed Charter for -advocacy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I propose a charter for -advocacy. This charter will serve to transform > -advocacy from a channel of communications (discussion part) about FreeBSD > to an organizational unit (activity part) _within_ FreeBSD, Inc. > > Let's make -advocacy officially recognized as the "FreeBSD Advocacy > Group". > > Before I propose any tenets (I have some in mind) let us first decide > whether there is interest in such a charter. If there is such an interest, > then we can begin the real discourse. > > I move that FreeBSD, Inc and its community membership begin the charter of > the "FreeBSD Advocacy Group". > > Does anyone second the motion? > Go for it! Joey Bear Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 19:03:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09492 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09485 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:03:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA01460; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:33:46 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980514113345.U320@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:33:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 03:15:38PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 15:15:38 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Mr. Hasty's letter to Dan Morales regarding Dell and Compaq is the > inspiration for this question. Are we a Politcal Action Committee? > > Politics are of local interest. This is a global forum. > > Politics are of interest to individuals and the government whom they live > under. This is a group and is not beholden to any particular government. > > Emotive political discussion on this list can only cause division. This > should not happen. > > As a member of this group, I am woe to be included, by default, in > positions and opinions that I do not, myself, agree with. To make an > incredibly graphic example, "A letter to the President of the United > States: We, the members of the FreeBSD community, think that you should > nuke Dubai because they don't use enough FreeBSD." Ridiculous, perhaps. > Would you like it if I sent off such a letter and plastered the FreeBSD > name _or your name_ all over it? > > -- What do you mean, No!? > > FreeBSD-advocacy should not be _directly_ engaged in the politics of > governments. Agreed. More to the point, I think that any view purporting to be from FreeBSD-advocacy should first be discussed in the group. I don't have any particular disagreement with Amancio for expressing his views, but I did find it necessary to send a second message expressing my personal disagreement with the view itself. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 19:27:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13263 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:27:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13255 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:27:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id TAA20168 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:27:35 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id TAA04278 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:27:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:26:08 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Preliminary Tenets Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Many yesses, no nos. So here we go. OBTW, this is not intended to be a mailing list charter. This is intended to be a charter for an organization. This is _my_ vision of a charter. This is proposed to get discussion started. (Thanks for the advice Greg.) It is very much subject to debate, addition, or truncation. I will not discuss my ideas yet. I will just state them. ***** - Duties The FreeBSD Advocacy Group shall have the duty to spread the word and improve the user base. The Group shall be able to answer this question, asked by a perspective user, "Why should I choose FreeBSD?" - The Group's Position (if not that of each and every member) The Group shall support freely available software and other free software communities including the Free Software Foundation, Mozilla.org, Linux, and the BSD variants. All free software communities have a vested interest in cooperation. The Group supports software licensing that makes source code available. The Group is not formed for the purpose of advocating BSD over GPL. The Group supports the FREEDOM of free software. The Group shall advocate the porting of applications to the FreeBSD platform to provide a compelling reason to use FreeBSD and improve our user base. The Group shall advocate the release of driver source code to enhance hardware compatibility and improve our user base. The Group is formed to advance the FreeBSD user base. The Group shall not officially engage in activities that detract from other communities. The Group shall present FreeBSD as an alternative to FooSoft. The Group shall not engage in "FooSoft Sucks!" - Powers Current members of the core group shall have veto power until such time the the Advocacy Group has matured and can handle its own affairs. This is to ensure that the Advocacy Group performs in a manner which is beneficial to FreeBSD, Inc and the FreeBSD community at large. The FreeBSD advocacy group shall be ruled by "oral vote". In the event that a clear consensus has not been reached, talk some more and reach one! :) - Moderation. Discussion on the FreeBSD-advocacy shall not be moderated. Let rhetoric stand by its own merit. - Sanctioned Advocacy All sanctioned advocacy should be perfomed in accordance with the above duties and positions. The FreeBSD Advocacy Group shall sanction certain advocacy actions. The actions that the Group will sanction will be of the corporate nature. If FreeBSD is to form a cooperative advocacy alliance with an organization, that alliance should be sanctioned. This is done to provide other organizations with a coherent and consistent representation of FreeBSD, Inc. - Unsanctioned Advocacy All members are invited to advocate FreeBSD in their daily affairs. The opinions of members who engage in unsanctioned advocacy represent their personal views and not necessarily those views of FreeBSD, Inc. To represent an unsanctioned position as one that is sanctioned will be considered inappropriate. ***** Your turn. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 19:56:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA17511 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:56:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA17481 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:56:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA18952; Wed, 13 May 1998 19:55:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805140255.TAA18952@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 May 1998 11:33:45 +0930." <19980514113345.U320@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:55:52 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG My view was personal and it did not involved the group . I did CC the group with the hope of inviting the State Attorney to respond not just to me but to the group and to start a discussion. My email was signed by me and it did not represent the group's view that should have been obvious however I accept the gross interpretation and apologies for that. To those who really detested what I did, advocacy is an art irrespective of how it is implemented there will always be some that hate / love an approach so if you are easily excitable or offended then perhaps this mailing list is not for you. In fairness , we are attempting to define ourselves so mistakes will be made along the way and I hope that we can correct them. Now the hard part , it is not clear how we can shape up this group to do any kind of advocacy . This is mostly due to our culture kind of anarchism due to mostly non-involvement . Given that perhaps the advocacy mailing list should be a forum to discuss ideas on how to conduct or carry out advocacy where it really counts, out of this mailing list in an open forum Regards, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 20:37:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24254 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:37:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24238 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA00296; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:36:46 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980514133638.20401@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:36:38 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Preliminary Tenets References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:26:08PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:26:08PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Many yesses, no nos. So here we go. > > OBTW, this is not intended to be a mailing list charter. This is intended > to be a charter for an organization. I don't want to be a member of an organisation that needs something like this, much less discuss it. Not a criticism, just personal preference. I'm going to support FreeBSD however I can, whenever I get the chance, for as long as I feel like doing it. Don't ask me for any more than that. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 20:42:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24850 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:42:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24824 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA19212; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:42:28 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id UAA06265; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:42:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:40:53 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Amancio Hasty cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? In-Reply-To: <199805140255.TAA18952@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: >My view was personal and it did not involved the group . I did CC the group >with the hope of inviting the State Attorney to respond not just to me >but to the group and to start a discussion. My email was signed by me >and it did not represent the group's view that should have been >obvious however I accept the gross interpretation and apologies for >that. Fair. >To those who really detested what I did, advocacy is an art irrespective >of how it is implemented there will always be some that hate / love >an approach so if you are easily excitable or offended then perhaps >this mailing list is not for you. I did not detest. I was not offended or excited. I did strongly disagree. I expressed this disagreement. I maintain that advocacy and government politics are seperate. Now, about this list and whether or not it is for me. This list is for me, for you, but primarily for us, the FreeBSD community. "... not for you." I will not be discounted from participation here because I am not engaging in an invective sort of advocacy. Ranting should not be considered a "Red Badge of Courage". I fear that we operate with the premise that we _must_ get bloody in order to advocate FreeBSD. I have read advocacy news groups. It took me all of ten minutes to figure out that I would never bother to read an advocacy news group again. Let's make sure that FreeBSD gets more than that ten minutes of attention from any prospective user. How do we do this? By providing an _engaging, compelling_ reason to listen. Am I unique in my rejection of the advocacy news groups? If I am, then perhaps I am fully out of touch. >In fairness , we are attempting to define ourselves so mistakes will >be made along the way and I hope that we can correct them. Very fair. In fact, this reply should be considered part of that shaping. >Now the hard part , it is not clear how we can shape up this group >to do any kind of advocacy . This is mostly due to our culture >kind of anarchism due to mostly non-involvement . Yes. This is the hard part. You know better than I as you are a developer and are ingrained in this anarchy and know how to operate in that environment. (this is not insult, just a statement) >Given that perhaps the advocacy mailing list should be a forum to >discuss ideas on how to conduct or carry out advocacy where it >really counts, out of this mailing list in an open forum This is also appropriate. But let's get our house in order before we invite people over for dinner. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 20:45:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25445 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:45:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (ted@cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25436 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:45:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ted@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from ted@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00514; Wed, 13 May 1998 23:45:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19980513234553.29881@cheddar.netmonger.net> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:45:53 -0400 From: Ted Stein To: Amancio Hasty Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? References: <19980514113345.U320@freebie.lemis.com> <199805140255.TAA18952@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <199805140255.TAA18952@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:55:52PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:55:52PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > My view was personal and it did not involved the group . I did CC the group > with the hope of inviting the State Attorney to respond not just to me > but to the group and to start a discussion. My email was signed by me > and it did not represent the group's view that should have been > obvious however I accept the gross interpretation and apologies for > that. > > To those who really detested what I did, advocacy is an art irrespective > of how it is implemented there will always be some that hate / love > an approach so if you are easily excitable or offended then perhaps > this mailing list is not for you. > Your approach was not the approach I would have taken. In addition, a simple apology would've sufficed for your actions, rather than an "if you disagree maybe this isn't for you". > > In fairness , we are attempting to define ourselves so mistakes will > be made along the way and I hope that we can correct them. > > Now the hard part , it is not clear how we can shape up this group > to do any kind of advocacy . This is mostly due to our culture > kind of anarchism due to mostly non-involvement . > > Given that perhaps the advocacy mailing list should be a forum to > discuss ideas on how to conduct or carry out advocacy where it > really counts, out of this mailing list in an open forum > This list IS a forum to discuss ideas on how to carry out advocacy. However, going against Microsoft is not advocating FreeBSD, and attaching a carbon copy of our list does, in fact, implicate our (as the community) involvement in your actions. Once again, this is not the approach I would've taken, and an apology would suffice, as most of us disagreed with your actions; not so much as the idea, but the attaching it to us, and in some cases (as mine) both. -- -------+----------------------+------------------------+ /)_(\ | Ted Stein | ted@taki.net | (/. .\)| CGI/Backend | http://www.taki.net | \(T)/ | taki solutions, inc. | Web Design and Hosting | () ()|----------------------+------------------------+ ()-() | "Chicken Little only has to be right once." | -------+-----------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 20:47:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25643 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:47:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA25626 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:46:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 7588 invoked from network); 14 May 1998 03:46:54 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 14 May 1998 03:46:54 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm7-211.realtime.net [204.96.0.211]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA21065; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:46:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:53:15 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl Reply-To: John Kenagy To: Ted Stein cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Enough Microsoft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Though having done just what you complain about, and more recently, probably offended the list for jumping on Dan Morales, I would also like to see this stop as well as leaving Linux alone. I'm getting tired of using the "d" button on pine. Which I do when seeing "linux" or "Microsoft" in the subject line - mostly. I will feel more comfortable with a little more experience in actually producing real "advocacy" as Jordan has been calling for. I am using my home and some friends in a PAC (sorry, Jason -- and NO, it has nothing to do with computers, even ;-)) as models for applying FreeBSD applications in a small non-unix aware environment. When this works, then my contributions can be more meaningful. John On Wed, 13 May 1998, Ted Stein wrote: > Is this a list for FreeBSD advocacy suggestions, or a place to bash > Microsoft? If you want us to (for example) write a letter to our state > attorneys against Microsoft, pitch it out to -chat as an idea for spare > time. I've seen a few good advocacy ideas come through here, definitely, > and I don't mean any insult to those of you who are anti-Microsoft (and > show it here) or those who aren't. I simply mean that there is a threat of > "Microsoft this" and "Microsoft that" breaking out, and that's why I left > Linux. > > -------+----------------------+------------------------+ > /)_(\ | Ted Stein | ted@taki.net | > (/. .\)| CGI/Backend | http://www.taki.net | > \(T)/ | taki solutions, inc. | Web Design and Hosting | > () ()|----------------------+------------------------+ > ()-() | "Chicken Little only has to be right once." | > -------+-----------------------------------------------+ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 20:50:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26176 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:50:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26166 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:50:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id UAA43990; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:50:53 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id UAA30515; Wed, 13 May 1998 20:50:52 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 20:49:18 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Sue Blake cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Preliminary Tenets In-Reply-To: <19980514133638.20401@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 14 May 1998, Sue Blake wrote: >On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:26:08PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >> OBTW, this is not intended to be a mailing list charter. This is intended >> to be a charter for an organization. > >I don't want to be a member of an organisation that needs something like >this, much less discuss it. Not a criticism, just personal preference. Fair. >I'm going to support FreeBSD however I can, whenever I get the chance, >for as long as I feel like doing it. Don't ask me for any more than that. The very neat thing about FreeBSD is that people contribute as they are able. IMHO, no one in the community asks any more or less from any one else. (I reaaaallly like FreeBSD and the community.) Don't lose us yet. There is room for everyone. Not everyone in the community is in the core. Not everyone in the community is a CVS committer. Organization does not preclude participation in other arenas of FreeBSD daily business. Organization does not preclude participation in advovacy either. Please stick with us and participate. I know that you personally have something to contribute. I have read the things that you have written. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 21:01:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28201 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:01:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28192 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id XAA23608 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 23:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:01:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ANTI MS MAIL ENCLOSED! DELETE now if your not interested Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This was just to funny. I mail my local representative to see if Kansas was hopping on the MS anti-trust bandwagon, and I get this reply : From: System Administrator To: opsys@mail.webspan.net Subject: Undeliverable: MS Anti Trust Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients. To: tiahart@mail.house.gov Subject: MS Anti Trust Sent: 5/13/98 23:46:25 PM The following recipient(s) could not be reached: tiahart@mail.house.gov on 5/13/98 23:46:25 PM Recipient Not Found MSEXCH:IMC:U.S. House of Representatives:U.S. House:MSG09 Now the mail address is correct im assuming since its on my local reps. page :) I guess this is a no to my question about them jumping on board the MS anti trust wagon eh? :) Chris -- "I don't do favors, I accumulate debts" ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.6 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 21:04:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28906 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:04:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28730 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id NAA02222; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:33:47 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980514133347.E320@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:33:47 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Preliminary Tenets References: <19980514133638.20401@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980514133638.20401@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Thu, May 14, 1998 at 01:36:38PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 14 May 1998 at 13:36:38 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:26:08PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: >> Many yesses, no nos. So here we go. >> >> OBTW, this is not intended to be a mailing list charter. This is intended >> to be a charter for an organization. > > I don't want to be a member of an organisation that needs something like > this, much less discuss it. Not a criticism, just personal preference. > > I'm going to support FreeBSD however I can, whenever I get the chance, > for as long as I feel like doing it. Don't ask me for any more than > that. I don't think that anything that -advocacy is proposing insists that you be part of it, nor that you stop supporting FreeBSD if you're not part of -advocacy. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 21:09:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29698 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:09:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29689 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:09:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA19304; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:09:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805140409.VAA19304@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 20:40:53 -0000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:09:11 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, 13 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > >My view was personal and it did not involved the group . I did CC the group > >with the hope of inviting the State Attorney to respond not just to me > >but to the group and to start a discussion. My email was signed by me > >and it did not represent the group's view that should have been > >obvious however I accept the gross interpretation and apologies for > >that. > > Fair. > > >To those who really detested what I did, advocacy is an art irrespective > >of how it is implemented there will always be some that hate / love > >an approach so if you are easily excitable or offended then perhaps > >this mailing list is not for you. > > I did not detest. I was not offended or excited. I did strongly disagree. > I expressed this disagreement. > > I maintain that advocacy and government politics are seperate. > > Now, about this list and whether or not it is for me. This list is for me, > for you, but primarily for us, the FreeBSD community. > > "... not for you." The intention above was to the list in general and it was not addressed to you. What I am trying to say is that advocacy issues can be very intense and emotional to some --- that is all. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 21:11:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29986 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:11:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA29969 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:11:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 45156 invoked from network); 14 May 1998 04:10:43 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 14 May 1998 04:10:43 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm5-164.realtime.net [205.238.146.164]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA25295; Wed, 13 May 1998 23:10:29 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:16:48 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl Reply-To: John Kenagy To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: Amancio Hasty , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft Vs. Texas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Wed, 13 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > >Given that your State's major computer makers have succeeded in influencing the > >due law process, I am going to make it a point NOT to buy DELL or Compaq > >computers. > > CC to dan.morales trimmed in the interest of decorum. > Same trim... > How, on earth, does it possibly help us to send email to a government > official telling him that he is and the government he works in is corrupt? Though acknowleging pressure from the Texas computer industry in my letter, I think Mr. Morales' decision was probably based on the apellate court decision announced in the paper. I think he also understands "advocacy" includes sometimes outrageous and even uninformed statements. For better or worse. > How does this advance FreeBSD? It does not advance FreeBSD or free > software in any way, whatsoever. How does it help us to advertise that > _we_ are not interested in two major PC manufacturers? > This is not advocacy. This is vindictive. It is also a basic tool of comsumer advocacy. > When you CC'd this list in your communication with Dan Morales you > provided a de facto endorsement of your position by the entire FreeBSD > community. I think the victorian term was "balderdash". CC' ing simply states that someone else got a copy. > If you really feel this way then that is your personal interaction with > your government officials. Leave me out of it. > I think that the the term "lazy" has been used (by you?) to describe BSD > advocacy on a couple occasions. If this is what it means to _not_ be lazy, > I want no part of it. Don't bash me for being "lazy" if I refuse to be > vindictive. You are _not_ lazy. (And not calm either ;-) - good!) > Don't mistake calm discussion for ineffective discussion. We need not be > bully-ish to advance FreeBSD. > I think that -advocacy should lay down some ground rules for our behaviour > in the public eye. We should write it down and make everyone abide by the > rules. This should be done in the interest of the image of FreeBSD. > The -core is fortunate in this respect, they have leadership and > organization. -Advocacy should develop the same. We should get all of our > guns pointed in the right direction before we start having friendly > casualties. Government has an irrevokable and powerful influence on commerce. If you don't like something government does, say so to what ever official is the responsible party. I am sorry if my doing so has offended any on this list. You have made, under separate cover, a proposal for a charter and a "network". Do it. I support you in it. John > Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. > Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 21:14:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00563 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:14:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00510 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:13:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id VAA50992; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:13:50 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id VAA26335; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:12:16 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Amancio Hasty cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? In-Reply-To: <199805140409.VAA19304@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: >The intention above was to the list in general and it was not addressed to >you. What I am trying to say is that advocacy issues can be very intense >and emotional to some --- that is all. Ok. I took it as personal. I will change my tune. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 21:17:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00897 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:17:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00892 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:17:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA19380; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:17:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805140417.VAA19380@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 21:12:16 -0000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:17:02 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Given that we are discussing advocacy issues, in the future, please try not take this issues personally for that creates an obvious weakness for some to exploit in a public debate and this is more of a strategy rather than advise. Best Regards, Amancio > On Wed, 13 May 1998, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > >The intention above was to the list in general and it was not addressed to > >you. What I am trying to say is that advocacy issues can be very intense > >and emotional to some --- that is all. > > Ok. I took it as personal. I will change my tune. > > Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. > Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 21:17:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00988 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:17:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA00933 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:17:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 16558 invoked from network); 14 May 1998 04:16:11 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.128.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 14 May 1998 04:16:11 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm5-164.realtime.net [205.238.146.164]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id XAA26997; Wed, 13 May 1998 23:16:00 -0500 Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:22:59 -0500 (CDT) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Preliminary Tenets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Good start, But, watch out for two areas; 1. Having a position of general "free software" advocacy is at some level in conflict with the active promotion of a particular "free" product. That needs to be thought out a bit. 2. Veto? I don't like that word - Why have and advocacy group at all? The core group could just do it. I think the core group's opinion should carry weight but veto? Keep going! John On Wed, 13 May 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Many yesses, no nos. So here we go. > > OBTW, this is not intended to be a mailing list charter. This is intended > to be a charter for an organization. > > This is _my_ vision of a charter. This is proposed to get discussion > started. (Thanks for the advice Greg.) It is very much subject to debate, > addition, or truncation. > > I will not discuss my ideas yet. I will just state them. > > ***** > > - Duties > > The FreeBSD Advocacy Group shall have the duty to spread the word and > improve the user base. > > The Group shall be able to answer this question, asked by a perspective > user, "Why should I choose FreeBSD?" > > - The Group's Position (if not that of each and every member) > > The Group shall support freely available software and other free software > communities including the Free Software Foundation, Mozilla.org, Linux, > and the BSD variants. All free software communities have a vested interest > in cooperation. > > The Group supports software licensing that makes source code available. > The Group is not formed for the purpose of advocating BSD over GPL. The > Group supports the FREEDOM of free software. > > The Group shall advocate the porting of applications to the FreeBSD > platform to provide a compelling reason to use FreeBSD and improve our > user base. > > The Group shall advocate the release of driver source code to enhance > hardware compatibility and improve our user base. > > The Group is formed to advance the FreeBSD user base. The Group shall not > officially engage in activities that detract from other communities. The > Group shall present FreeBSD as an alternative to FooSoft. The Group shall > not engage in "FooSoft Sucks!" > > - Powers > > Current members of the core group shall have veto power until such time > the the Advocacy Group has matured and can handle its own affairs. This is > to ensure that the Advocacy Group performs in a manner which is beneficial > to FreeBSD, Inc and the FreeBSD community at large. > > The FreeBSD advocacy group shall be ruled by "oral vote". In the event > that a clear consensus has not been reached, talk some more and reach one! > :) > > - Moderation. > > Discussion on the FreeBSD-advocacy shall not be moderated. Let rhetoric > stand by its own merit. > > - Sanctioned Advocacy > > All sanctioned advocacy should be perfomed in accordance with the above > duties and positions. > > The FreeBSD Advocacy Group shall sanction certain advocacy actions. The > actions that the Group will sanction will be of the corporate nature. If > FreeBSD is to form a cooperative advocacy alliance with an organization, > that alliance should be sanctioned. > > This is done to provide other organizations with a coherent and consistent > representation of FreeBSD, Inc. > > - Unsanctioned Advocacy > > All members are invited to advocate FreeBSD in their daily affairs. The > opinions of members who engage in unsanctioned advocacy represent their > personal views and not necessarily those views of FreeBSD, Inc. To > represent an unsanctioned position as one that is sanctioned will be > considered inappropriate. > > ***** > > Your turn. > > Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. > Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 21:19:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01158 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:19:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01144 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:18:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA19388; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:18:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805140418.VAA19388@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Ted Stein cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 23:45:53 EDT." <19980513234553.29881@cheddar.netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:18:38 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:55:52PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > My view was personal and it did not involved the group . I did CC the group > > with the hope of inviting the State Attorney to respond not just to me > > but to the group and to start a discussion. My email was signed by me > > and it did not represent the group's view that should have been > > obvious however I accept the gross interpretation and apologies for > > that. > > > > To those who really detested what I did, advocacy is an art irrespective > > of how it is implemented there will always be some that hate / love > > an approach so if you are easily excitable or offended then perhaps > > this mailing list is not for you. > > > > Your approach was not the approach I would have taken. In addition, a simple apology would've > sufficed for your actions, rather than an "if you disagree maybe this isn't for you". Obviously you pressed reply to quick and I guess that is okay for I did not say that : "if you disagree maybe this isn't for you". Please point out in my e-mail where I stated the above. > > > > > In fairness , we are attempting to define ourselves so mistakes will > > be made along the way and I hope that we can correct them. > > > > Now the hard part , it is not clear how we can shape up this group > > to do any kind of advocacy . This is mostly due to our culture > > kind of anarchism due to mostly non-involvement . > > > > Given that perhaps the advocacy mailing list should be a forum to > > discuss ideas on how to conduct or carry out advocacy where it > > really counts, out of this mailing list in an open forum > > > > This list IS a forum to discuss ideas on how to carry out advocacy. However, going against > Microsoft is not advocating FreeBSD, and attaching a carbon copy of our list does, in fact, > implicate our (as the community) involvement in your actions. Once again, this is not the > approach I would've taken, and an apology would suffice, as most of us disagreed with your > actions; not so much as the idea, but the attaching it to us, and in some cases (as mine) both. > Perhaps , for this mailing list was formed for a very evident lack of promotion of FreeBSD or any organized effort to do so and I think the list still requires further definition . Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 21:31:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02384 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:31:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (root@jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02362 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id VAA23844 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:31:30 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id VAA21551 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:29:56 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Can GNATS be used to serve advocacy? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am brewing an idea. Can GNATS be used to serve advocacy? (Seperately of course.) I was thinking that it could be utilized as atracking mechanism for advocacy issues. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 21:42:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03638 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:42:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhost1.u.washington.edu (mailhost1.u.washington.edu [140.142.32.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03625 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:42:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmorrisn@u.washington.edu) Received: from u.washington.edu (dmorrisn@D-128-95-141-106.dhcp.washington.edu [128.95.141.106]) by mailhost1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.11) with ESMTP id VAA22468; Wed, 13 May 1998 21:42:01 -0700 Message-ID: <355A76C2.B843369C@u.washington.edu> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:44:50 -0700 From: Don Morrison X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty CC: Greg Lehey , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? References: <199805140255.TAA18952@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Amancio Hasty wrote: > > My view was personal and it did not involved the group . I did CC the group > with the hope of inviting the State Attorney to respond not just to me > but to the group and to start a discussion. My email was signed by me > and it did not represent the group's view that should have been > obvious however I accept the gross interpretation and apologies for > that. The point is that because you CC'd the group, to the receiver of your message, whether you were speaking as a spokesman for the group or independantly is ambiguous. It is highly likely that when he reads it he will see the CC and deduce that you obviously must be an agent of authority in our group because you assume that role by offering his reply to be directed _to_ the group. He will identify your particular view _as_ the group's view whether that is your intention or not, because he probably has no former frame of reference for our mainstream viewpoints--he's probably never got a letter from someone saying that they're a freebsd user. All that we are asking is that anyone who has a dissenting viewpoint who insists on voicing it, not voice it in a way that might represent it as our group consensus. If you must CC, please state explicitly that this is your own personal/independent view upfront. Remember, this is FreeBSD _Inc._. Not to give everyone a disgusting corporate feeling. :) > To those who really detested what I did, advocacy is an art irrespective > of how it is implemented there will always be some that hate / love > an approach so if you are easily excitable or offended then perhaps > this mailing list is not for you. Well, since advocacy is simply defined as declaring that you favor something, your statement is true. However, what you accomplish through it _is_ respective to how you implement it. Your statement was analogous to saying: If x then x. (x --> x) You can't assume that your methods will always have a positive outcome simply because you favor them. The question here is: what is our consensus about what are appropriate methods. If you don't agree with the list's consensus, then maybe _you_ shouldn't be a part of the list. And certainly not profess to be an agent of it. > In fairness , we are attempting to define ourselves so mistakes will > be made along the way and I hope that we can correct them. We are asking that you not make the mistake of defining us for us. The key word in your sentence is "we". To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 22:11:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07956 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:11:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07930 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:10:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA00601; Thu, 14 May 1998 15:10:35 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980514151033.56666@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:10:33 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Greg Lehey , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? References: <19980514113345.U320@freebie.lemis.com> <199805140255.TAA18952@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199805140255.TAA18952@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:55:52PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:55:52PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > In fairness , we are attempting to define ourselves so mistakes will > be made along the way and I hope that we can correct them. If mistakes can be corrected then they are worth making. The worst thing anyone can do is to do nothing. I recently deleted a week's worth of -advocacy and -chat unread because I couldn't cope with the duplicates. I don't seem to have missed anything, and I wonder if there's much more to be said. Let's see more of what people are actually doing, warts and all. I'm acting locally. If there's anyone in Sydney who could talk simply and coherently about FreeBSD to 200-300 microsoft users for half an hour later this year and would like to do so, please contact me privately. A couple of prominent members may be about to switch to Linux in the absence of good info about FreeBSD, and when they do others will follow their example. I'd also like to contact uni students in Sydney and nearby to find out whether FreeBSD or Linux is being used or mentioned or is available where you study. Maybe together we can work out ways to make FreeBSD more visible there, and then run our ideas past this mob in case they're silly. I only know of one place in Sydney where FreeBSD books and/or CDs can be purchased, and that's an efficient mail/courier service from Leonard Chan (http://www.cetustech.com.au) who can often be found with his order book at Linux user group meetings (we have no FreeBSD user group). He has resonably priced software, books, and computer hardware. Has anyone seen FreeBSD available anywhere else in Sydney? If so, we should know about it and support their businesses. The rest of you, what are you doing in your town? Have you made any mistakes we can learn from? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 22:13:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08261 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@mail.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08241 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:13:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA08330; Thu, 14 May 1998 01:12:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:12:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: dwilde1@ibm.net, Amancio Hasty , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: <11318.895094325@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Already long since done by another FreeBSD advocate. :-) > > http://www.emsphone.com/stats/cdrom.html > Cool! Do these tings ever get announced, or do you just have to know the right people to hear about these things when they happen? I read these lists regularly and never see mention of half the cool pages for showing off FreeBSD until they are six months old. Would anyone object to having such useful evangelical information posted to the announce groups? Like "hey, this page shows FreeBSD working out a 100Mb link"? I suppose this isn't as useful now that we have an advocacy list, but I am sure there are many more people who are interested, if only for amusement, in such information. Adrian, who fans the local FreeBSD flames with web pages... -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 22:22:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09100 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:22:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@mail.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09089 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:22:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA08529; Thu, 14 May 1998 01:21:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:21:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Andrew Short cc: Ted Stein , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Andrew Short wrote: > FreeBSD! How about we strike a deal with them....something like "Ok you > benefit GREATLY from FreeBSD, how about you do chucky banner ad for every > 1 in 10 (or 1 in 5...whatever) searches on "Unix, Linux, Linus, Freeware, > FreeBSD" and whatever MORE words you can think of. Yahoo! used to do this. I always liked the fact that searching on linux returned a page that invariable had a FreeBSD banner. I just double checked and it looks like it is gone. Does someone with Yahoo! contacts want to try for a reinstatement, or at least some donation/supportive banner placements? Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed May 13 22:36:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10766 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:36:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from huron.nvl.virginia.edu (adrian@mail.nvl.Virginia.EDU [128.143.244.43]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10755 for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 22:36:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@nvl.virginia.edu) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by huron.nvl.virginia.edu (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with SMTP id BAA08631; Thu, 14 May 1998 01:36:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 01:36:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Ted Stein cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Enough Microsoft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Ted Stein wrote: > Is this a list for FreeBSD advocacy suggestions, or a place to bash > Microsoft? If you want us to (for example) write a letter to our state > attorneys against Microsoft, pitch it out to -chat as an idea for spare > time. I've seen a few good advocacy ideas come through here, definitely, > and I don't mean any insult to those of you who are anti-Microsoft (and > show it here) or those who aren't. I simply mean that there is a threat of > "Microsoft this" and "Microsoft that" breaking out, and that's why I left > Linux. Well, I can see your point and do sympathise with it, I cannot agree with it. Yes, bashing is booring, but I count on the better posts to published articles, etc. as things I can cite when arguing the correctness of choosing a non-MS OS for certain applications. It sounds a lot better to have anecdotes and analysis, than it does to say "Well, I don't think your considering the alternatives. Listen to me!" Adrian -- adrian@virginia.edu ---->>>>| If I were stranded on a desert island, and System Administrator --->>>| I could only have one OS for my computer, Neurosurgical Visualization Lab ->>| it would be FreeBSD. Think about it..... http://www.nvl.virginia.edu/ ->| http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 02:21:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA16630 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@pm3-5.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA16622 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA07392; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:21:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 02:21:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Adrian Filipi-Martin cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Enough Microsoft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 14 May 1998, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > On Wed, 13 May 1998, Ted Stein wrote: > > > Is this a list for FreeBSD advocacy suggestions, or a place to bash > > Microsoft? If you want us to (for example) write a letter to our state > > attorneys against Microsoft, pitch it out to -chat as an idea for spare > > time. I've seen a few good advocacy ideas come through here, definitely, > > and I don't mean any insult to those of you who are anti-Microsoft (and > > show it here) or those who aren't. I simply mean that there is a threat of > > "Microsoft this" and "Microsoft that" breaking out, and that's why I left > > Linux. > > Well, I can see your point and do sympathise with it, I cannot > agree with it. Yes, bashing is booring, but I count on the better posts > to published articles, etc. as things I can cite when arguing the > correctness of choosing a non-MS OS for certain applications. It sounds a > lot better to have anecdotes and analysis, than it does to say "Well, I > don't think your considering the alternatives. Listen to me!" Well if you're looking for anti-MS info, check out the San Francisco Chronicle. I've yet to see positive press on MS. The last tech related article I read in it was something to the effect of "California trying to get other states on the bandwagon [of suing Microsoft]", and something about MS buying Vermont and Arizona senators. Hmm. :^) - alex "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 02:55:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22291 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:55:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22270 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:55:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA03899; Thu, 14 May 1998 02:54:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Sue Blake cc: Amancio Hasty , Greg Lehey , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 May 1998 15:10:33 +1000." <19980514151033.56666@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 02:54:30 -0700 Message-ID: <3896.895139670@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > If there's anyone in Sydney who could talk simply and coherently about > FreeBSD to 200-300 microsoft users for half an hour later this year and > would like to do so, please contact me privately. A couple of prominent I don't know where they're holding it this year, but I also expect to be doing a presentation about FreeBSD at the AUUG and possibly also giving a half-day tutorial session if there's enough interest. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 06:13:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25550 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 06:13:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com (rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com [157.230.160.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id GAA25541 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 06:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhicks@rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com) Received: from rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com by rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA25681; Thu, 14 May 1998 09:07:45 -0400 Message-ID: <355AEC9F.7C35FB82@rachel.glenatl.glenayre.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:07:43 -0400 From: Jerry Hicks Organization: Glenayre Electronics, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux References: <12237.895101397@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: [snip] > ... the best way to stop scaring suits is to stop chasing them around > with fire axes. :) Actually, I hadn't thought of that. Sounds like fun... ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 07:16:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA05877 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 07:16:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from the.oneinsane.net (insane@gw.oneinsane.net [207.113.133.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA05868 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 07:16:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from insane@oneinsane.net) Received: (from insane@localhost) Message-ID: <19980514071600.33944@the.oneinsane.net> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 07:16:00 -0700 From: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: sd_fbsd_ug@oneinsane.net Subject: Re: Preliminary Tenets References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.74e In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:26:08PM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD the.oneinsane.net 2.2.6-STABLE X-Opinion: What you read here is my IMHO X-Disclaimer: I am a firm believer in RTFM Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, May 13, 1998 at 07:26:08PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Many yesses, no nos. So here we go. I Like that. Were you expecting any NO's ;-) > - Duties > > The FreeBSD Advocacy Group shall have the duty to spread the word and > improve the user base. I am trying to start a FreeBSD Users group here in San Diego. That was Six Weeks ago. Still have had no meetings. Mostly been short tidbits of email through an alias I have set up from my domain. If anyone has any ideas on how I can organize and recruit my Local Users, it would be highly appreciated. > The Group shall be able to answer this question, asked by a perspective > user, "Why should I choose FreeBSD?" No Problem Here ;-) TIA Ron -------------------------------------------------------- Ron Rosson ... and a UNIX user said ... The InSaNe One rm -rf * insane@oneinsane.net and all was null and void -------------------------------------------------------- It's so nice to be insane, nobody asks you to explain. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 08:43:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21053 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:43:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21047 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:42:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA02445; Thu, 14 May 1998 08:42:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805141542.IAA02445@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Don Morrison cc: Greg Lehey , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 13 May 1998 21:44:50 PDT." <355A76C2.B843369C@u.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:42:52 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >We are asking that you not make the mistake of defining us for us. The >key word in your sentence is "we". Given that this group is supposed to be an advocacy group who is volunteering to be the spoke person? I nominate: 1. Brett Glass 2. JKH Brett for he has expressed keen interest in marketing FreeBSD and is a journalist. JKH, for I think he can represent a balance and insightful view on FreeBSD. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 09:16:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27294 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 09:16:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA27284 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 09:16:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06241; Thu, 14 May 1998 17:03:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <355B15D4.EF039067@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:03:32 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dwilde1@ibm.net CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: chain letter proposal References: <199805100914.LAA02183@greenpeace.grondar.za> <3555B16A.EB1E288D@ibm.net> <2980-Mon11May1998211652-0400-kriston@ibm.net> <3557B205.E480CA5F@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > > All right, the results are in. Unscientific opinion surveyed from > those who cared enough to speak up says we only do a web ### form. > I will create such, and we will move on to the next idea. Digging through my old mails, look what I stumbled across... > I do think there's room for a swoopy-apps book written about > real-world FreeBSD projects. ...the form definitely needs a 'fill in your swoopy-apps here' box :-) cheers, Stuart To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 09:25:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29323 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 09:25:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29293 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 09:25:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05703; Thu, 14 May 1998 09:24:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, sd_fbsd_ug@oneinsane.net Subject: Re: Preliminary Tenets In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 May 1998 07:16:00 PDT." <19980514071600.33944@the.oneinsane.net> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:24:55 -0700 Message-ID: <5699.895163095@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I am trying to start a FreeBSD Users group here in San Diego. That was Six > Weeks ago. Still have had no meetings. Mostly been short tidbits of email > through an alias I have set up from my domain. If anyone has any ideas on > how I can organize and recruit my Local Users, it would be highly appreciated When I suddenly found it my job to set up a Unix conference in Dublin (Ireland) a few years back, I got very good results by spending a week calling essentially _EVERY_ I.T. company in the area (using the local equivalent of the yellow pages) and getting someone there to accept a small stack of handouts advertising the event. Come the big day, 300 people showed up and we raised $10K for the local Irish Unix User's Group. The technique is hard work, but I can recommend it. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 10:05:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06067 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:05:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.16.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06043 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 10:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from john (indobok-36.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.87.36]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.8.8) id MAA17286 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 12:05:02 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <199805141205030489.001E058B@mailgate.execpc.com> References: <00077272.CE21230@mfi.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Evaluation Version 2.40.41.04 Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:05:03 -0500 From: "Frank Pawlak" To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: UNIX Review Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not quite the results that I'd hoped for. Frank *********** BEGIN FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** On 5/14/98, at 11:35 AM, mhall@mfi.com wrote: > > Frank--Thanks for the note. Hope you had a chance to see the May issue > with the piece on Apache. And we have a software review of OpenLinux > in the July issue, which just went to the printer yesterday. I > anticipate publishing more similar articles in future pages of > Performance Computing as well as on our web site, > www.performance-computing.com. I even made the open source movement > the subject of my weekly UNIX RIOT online column a little while ago. > Still, your point is well taken and I may run your note as a letter to > the editor in the future. Thanks for dropping me a line.--mh > > >______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ >Subject: Open Source Operating Systems >Author: "Frank Pawlak" at Internet >Date: 5/13/98 5:04 PM > > >About a year ago, a previous editor made a decision to feature PC based >UNIX articles once per quarter. As I am sure that you are well aware there >appears to be a paradigm shift in the use of Open Source UNIX operating >systems. Netscape has led the way and now Coral has joined in utilization >of these operating systems and are using the open source development model. > While I would agree that the situation is in the early adaptor stage, >these initiatives are significant. > >Further, there is a tremendous amount of growth in the acceptance of Open >Source operating systems in the commercial world. Linux gets a lot of the >press, while FreeBSD is widely used in environments that require stable >servers that carry substantial loads and have uptimes ranging up to over >one year. FreeBSD is also used in embedded program environments such as >routers, web servers and firewalls, and at least one large financial >institution as a check processing application to name a few. It is also >the support platform for a NC thin client server backed by a major DBMS >ISV. > >While I am not necessarily suggesting an article or two featuring FreeBSD, >it would be great to see more coverage of the Open Source movement in your >magazine. Thank you for your time and consideration. > >Sincerely, > >Frank Pawlak > > >Received: from alto.mfi.com ([198.71.19.38]) by sf-mail.mfi.com with SMTP > (IMA Internet Exchange 3.01 Enterprise) id 00075731; Wed, 13 May 98 15:08:56 >-0700 >Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com ([169.207.16.10]) by alto.mfi.com > via smtpd (for sf-mail.mfi.com [198.71.17.202]) with SMTP; 13 May 1998 >21:42:16 UT >Received: from john (harconia-2-80.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.132.208]) > by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id RAA15717 > for ; Wed, 13 May 1998 17:04:19 -0500 (CDT) >Message-ID: <199805131704180349.0167BB3F@mailgate.execpc.com> >X-Mailer: Calypso Evaluation Version 2.40.41.04 >Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:04:18 -0500 >From: "Frank Pawlak" >To: mhall@mfi.com >Subject: Open Source Operating Systems > *********** END FORWARDED MESSAGE *********** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 11:10:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15076 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:10:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14880 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:09:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kaput@whoever.com) Received: from whoever.com (dialB01.aei.ca [206.123.6.85]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00773; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:09:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <355B3350.33B71650@whoever.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:09:21 -0400 From: kaput X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, sd_fbsd_ug@oneinsane.net Subject: Re: Preliminary Tenets - FreeBSD User Group References: <19980514071600.33944@the.oneinsane.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > The FreeBSD Advocacy Group shall have the duty to spread the word and > > improve the user base. > > I am trying to start a FreeBSD Users group here in San Diego. That was Six > Weeks ago. Still have had no meetings. Mostly been short tidbits of email > through an alias I have set up from my domain. If anyone has any ideas on > how I can organize and recruit my Local Users, it would be highly appreciated. > > > The Group shall be able to answer this question, asked by a perspective > > user, "Why should I choose FreeBSD?" > > No Problem Here ;-) > > TIA > Ron Like BeOS (www.be.com), FreeBSD should centralise what I call FUG (FreeBSD User Group). BeOS support its group and do a lot of thing for user. Cya Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 11:41:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20706 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:41:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20687 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:41:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06257; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:41:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: "Frank Pawlak" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX Review In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 May 1998 12:05:03 CDT." <199805141205030489.001E058B@mailgate.execpc.com> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:41:10 -0700 Message-ID: <6253.895171270@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Not quite the results that I'd hoped for. But very very typical. Just keep trying and don't let this kind of thing discourage you or you'll give up on the first week. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 11:54:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22079 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:54:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail3.mailsorter.net (mail3.mailsorter.net [207.67.128.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22026 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:53:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kriston@ibm.net) Received: from slip.dc.us.ibm.net ([204.148.99.45]) by mail3.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA18739 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 11:53:08 -0700 Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:53:13 -0400 Message-ID: <5677-Thu14May1998145313-0400-kriston@ibm.net> From: kriston@ibm.net (Kriston J. Rehberg) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? In-Reply-To: <199805140255.TAA18952@rah.star-gate.com> References: <19980514113345.U320@freebie.lemis.com> <199805140255.TAA18952@rah.star-gate.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I must add a comment that I, as a user of FreeBSD, do not care for Microsoft politicking. Just what OEM's and Microsoft have to do with FreeBSD is beyond my comprehension, and how they could possibly increase the acceptance of FreeBSD in the computing world is simply preposterous. By the way, you are hardly qualified to speak for a person like myself in that letter, so please don't imply that you are by including a carbon copy to this mailing list in your letter. I just don't care about your anti-Microsoft cause. If you are really anti-Microsoft then run over to the Linux mailing lists where your views will be more acceptable to that audience. Kris -- Kriston J. Rehberg AOL: Kriston http://kriston.net/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 13:17:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA04948 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:17:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04942 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:17:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-97.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.97]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA41864; Thu, 14 May 1998 20:16:56 GMT Message-ID: <355B50F5.5A36DF87@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:15:49 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD Network References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I like that. My boss wouldn't let me do it on the homepages, but I do have a very proactive 'about our site' page. --> Don To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 13:36:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07181 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:36:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt050n33.san.rr.com (@dt053nd2.san.rr.com [204.210.34.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07170 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:36:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Received: from dal.net (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt050n33.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04178; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:36:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Message-ID: <355B55C3.C1589324@dal.net> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:36:19 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE-0507 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson" CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, sd_fbsd_ug@oneinsane.net Subject: Re: Preliminary Tenets References: <19980514071600.33944@the.oneinsane.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ron 'The Insane One' Rosson wrote: > I am trying to start a FreeBSD Users group here in San Diego. That was Six > Weeks ago. Still have had no meetings. Mostly been short tidbits of email > through an alias I have set up from my domain. If anyone has any ideas on > how I can organize and recruit my Local Users, it would be highly appreciated. I made this suggestion previously on the local list, however I will repeat it because it might help others. 1. Poll the users to find a good day/time to set regular meetings. For the SD group I seem to recall that there were no bad nights. 2. Pick a date for your first meeting which equals whatever the next regular day will be plus 30 days. 3. Advertise heavily in appropriate local forums and post to freebsd-[chat?,advocacy?]. In SD I would include the sdnet.computing newsgroup and write up a few paragraphs for the user group columnist in Computer Edge magazine. Regarding the SD group please follow up to the local list, regarding other topics or suggestions follow up to -advocacy. :) Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** *** Proud designer and maintainer of the world's largest Internet *** Relay Chat server with 5,328 simultaneous connections. *** Try spider.dal.net on ports 6662-4 (Powered by FreeBSD) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 13:37:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07336 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:37:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07305 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 13:37:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-97.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.97]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id UAA43204; Thu, 14 May 1998 20:37:38 GMT Message-ID: <355B55D1.8064906A@ibm.net> Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:36:33 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Proposed Charter for -advocacy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Aye, and I don't have time to kibitz the charter but with a little polish, I agree with all said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 14:20:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14551 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:20:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw02.execpc.com (mailgw02.execpc.com [169.207.16.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14526 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:20:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from john (harconia-1-171.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.133.173]) by mailgw02.execpc.com (8.8.8) id QAA04870; Thu, 14 May 1998 16:20:41 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <199805141620420695.01081451@mailgate.execpc.com> In-Reply-To: <6253.895171270@time.cdrom.com> References: <6253.895171270@time.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: Calypso Evaluation Version 2.40.41.04 Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:20:42 -0500 From: "Frank Pawlak" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX Review Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan, Thanks for the encouragement. Not ready to quit yet. Been called a lot of things in my time, but "shrinking violet" was never one of them. Plenty more to go after. Regards, Frank *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 5/14/98, at 1:41 PM, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Not quite the results that I'd hoped for. > >But very very typical. Just keep trying and don't let this kind of >thing discourage you or you'll give up on the first week. :) > >- Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 14:43:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19289 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:43:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@kenya-144.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.227.144]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19279; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:42:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00898; Thu, 14 May 1998 14:43:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:43:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: Open Systems Networking cc: Amancio Hasty , ben@rosengart.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Letter to DOJ: Microsoft vs. the Software Industry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998, Open Systems Networking wrote: > > Just wanted to backup amancio's request for everyone to do this 30 second > cut and paste job and mail your local Attorney General and the DOJ. > > I mailed the DOJ and the texas AG *MY* AG is to lame to have an email > address *sigh* But I called her, but no call back yet. > Everyone should do this NOW!!!!!! N-O-W!!!!!!! Better yet, take a few minutes, and snail mail a letter or call. A call is not only a bit more personal, but being deluged with phone calls should certianly give a lasting impression. Or perhaps someone might want to collect some signatures (Embarcadero or Financial District during lunch..). - alex "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 20:01:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17977 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 20:01:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17895 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 20:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA00934; Fri, 15 May 1998 12:30:52 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980515123051.N305@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:30:51 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: John Kenagy , "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Preliminary Tenets References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from John Kenagy on Wed, May 13, 1998 at 11:22:59PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 13 May 1998 at 23:22:59 -0500, John Kenagy wrote: > Good start, > > But, watch out for two areas; > > (moved into place) > > On Wed, 13 May 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >> - Duties >> >> The FreeBSD Advocacy Group shall have the duty to spread the word and >> improve the user base. >> >> The Group shall be able to answer this question, asked by a perspective >> user, "Why should I choose FreeBSD?" >> >> - The Group's Position (if not that of each and every member) >> >> The Group shall support freely available software and other free software >> communities including the Free Software Foundation, Mozilla.org, Linux, >> and the BSD variants. All free software communities have a vested interest >> in cooperation. > > 1. Having a position of general "free software" advocacy is at some > level in conflict with the active promotion of a particular "free" > product. That needs to be thought out a bit. I think there's a difference in intensity between advocating FreeBSD and "supporting" (morally) the other groups. The important thing is to realise that we're bound to them in many ways. >> The Group supports software licensing that makes source code available. >> The Group is not formed for the purpose of advocating BSD over GPL. The >> Group supports the FREEDOM of free software. >> >> The Group shall advocate the porting of applications to the FreeBSD >> platform to provide a compelling reason to use FreeBSD and improve our >> user base. >> >> The Group shall advocate the release of driver source code to enhance >> hardware compatibility and improve our user base. >> >> The Group is formed to advance the FreeBSD user base. The Group shall not >> officially engage in activities that detract from other communities. The >> Group shall present FreeBSD as an alternative to FooSoft. The Group shall >> not engage in "FooSoft Sucks!" >> >> - Powers >> >> Current members of the core group shall have veto power until such time >> the the Advocacy Group has matured and can handle its own affairs. This is >> to ensure that the Advocacy Group performs in a manner which is beneficial >> to FreeBSD, Inc and the FreeBSD community at large. > > 2. Veto? I don't like that word - Why have and advocacy group at all? > The core group could just do it. I think the core group's opinion > should carry weight but veto? Hmm. The underlying idea is good, and at this point I think it makes sense. The question is, who determines when the group is mature? >> The FreeBSD advocacy group shall be ruled by "oral vote". In the event >> that a clear consensus has not been reached, talk some more and reach one! >> :) Oral? Electronic! >> - Unsanctioned Advocacy >> >> All members are invited to advocate FreeBSD in their daily affairs. The >> opinions of members who engage in unsanctioned advocacy represent their >> personal views and not necessarily those views of FreeBSD, Inc. To >> represent an unsanctioned position as one that is sanctioned will be >> considered inappropriate. This point needs more spelling out. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 20:36:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24622 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 20:36:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.133.7.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24586 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 20:35:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA04732; Thu, 14 May 1998 20:35:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199805150335.UAA04732@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: kriston@ibm.net (Kriston J. Rehberg) cc: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Are we a Political Action Committee ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 14 May 1998 14:53:13 EDT." <5677-Thu14May1998145313-0400-kriston@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 20:35:47 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Not bad, not bad , I thought the group was tame 8) You mentioned something interesting that perhaps along certain advocacy issues it may be better to join forces with a different group and I concur with that. In fact, if the open source community could join hands along certain advocacy issues that would be fantastic!! > I must add a comment that I, as a user of FreeBSD, do not care for > Microsoft politicking. Just what OEM's and Microsoft have to do with > FreeBSD is beyond my comprehension, and how they could possibly I see . It is suspected that Microsoft strong arms OEMs to use Win95 . Ralph Nader and the Linux community are attempting to highlight this issue to the public and to the DOJ. If OEMs could start distributing FreeBSD, Linux or some other operating system it will be a big plus for that platform. The rest deleted for I believed that responded to the list. Have Fun Guys, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 21:45:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04719 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 21:45:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04682 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 21:45:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@pm01-16.aei.ca [206.123.6.116]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA07521; Fri, 15 May 1998 00:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <355BC841.69391239@aei.ca> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 00:44:49 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Kriston J. Rehberg" CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform References: <199805100839.CAA16237@lariat.lariat.org> <199805101059.DAA01506@rah.star-gate.com> <6824-Mon11May1998210214-0400-kriston@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD.ORG need a change. It need to have a more conveniant interface and a WIDTH=600 is the standard. Even Linux.org and microsoft.com use it. Sorry for repeating Sue ;-) WIDTH WIDTH WIDTH! If you need people, I'm with you to change the look, e-mail me. Who is in charge of the web page? cya Malartre Kriston J. Rehberg wrote: > Well, I'm a web developer, and I'm fairly impressed by the current > freebsd.org. Of course, it could be made more impressive to Johnny > Corporate. If it makes you feel better, freebsd.org is not as > horribly presented as openbsd.org, which looks like a throw-away > student web page compared to almost anything else. > > But back to freebsd.org. There isn't much advocacy there. The search > engine is atrocious; the way it follows threads is by searching on > Message-ID and it just doesn't seem to work. The selection of the > search criteria, as well as whether to search mailing lists or > manuals, is just too darn chatty and prone to user errors (like, > "Wait, I didn't search the mailing list, what's going on?"). > > Just my opinion. You can tear apart my web site if you feel like you > have to. > > Kris > > Amancio Hasty writes: > >The challenge is to change the sleeper type attitude on this group with > >respect to marketing and to get advocacy type messages out on the > >world . > > > >For example, we *really* need to change http://www.freebsd.org > >to convey a feeling of activity and success around FreeBSD. I posted > >a simple request for someone to volunteer to revamp the web page and > >got ZERO response. Why is that? Is it because the group is lazy when > >it comes to promoting FreeBSD , the group does not understand the > >importance of demonstrating the capability and success of FreeBSD, or > >we don't have any web developers? I sincerely believe that the > >answer to my question is (a) we are lazy when it comes to promoting > >FreeBSD. > > > >Now, if this was a Linux forum , I bet we would have had by now several > >dozen volunteers for the task . I believe thats the biggest difference > >between FreeBSD and Linux . > > > > > > Amancio > > > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > -- > Kriston J. Rehberg > AOL: Kriston http://kriston.net/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 22:34:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13544 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:34:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13499 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 22:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05016; Fri, 15 May 1998 15:33:48 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980515153345.20830@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:33:45 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Malartre Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform References: <199805100839.CAA16237@lariat.lariat.org> <199805101059.DAA01506@rah.star-gate.com> <6824-Mon11May1998210214-0400-kriston@ibm.net> <355BC841.69391239@aei.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <355BC841.69391239@aei.ca>; from Malartre on Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:44:49AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:44:49AM -0400, Malartre wrote: > FreeBSD.ORG need a change. It need to have a more conveniant interface and a > WIDTH=600 is the standard. Even Linux.org and microsoft.com use it. > > Sorry for repeating Sue ;-) WIDTH WIDTH WIDTH! I still don't understand at all. Where's the problem? Even at 640 x 480 it looked fine to me. Are you saying it is too wide or too narrow? Where?? Which page? What is inconvenient for you? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 23:20:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19108 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:20:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA19098 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:20:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id XAA33922; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:20:08 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id XAA29938; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:18:36 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Malartre cc: "Kriston J. Rehberg" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform In-Reply-To: <355BC841.69391239@aei.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 15 May 1998, Malartre wrote: >FreeBSD.ORG need a change. It need to have a more conveniant interface and a >WIDTH=600 is the standard. Even Linux.org and microsoft.com use it. > >Sorry for repeating Sue ;-) WIDTH WIDTH WIDTH! > >If you need people, I'm with you to change the look, e-mail me. >Who is in charge of the web page? Please No. Designing a web page with a proprietary width height is, IMO, fundamentally against the purpose of using HTML. Don't you hate it when you have to scroll _left to right_ on some page that is built around a certain width. UGGGH!! HTML is used to provide MAXIMUM cross platfrom compatiblity. I personnally like the LYNX test. FreeBSD does quite well with lynx. Anyone who likes a proprietary page "hearkens back to the bad old days of the internet when people were unable to share information." Loosely quoted from Tim Berners Lee. Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 23:28:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20429 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:28:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA20419 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:28:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@pm01-16.aei.ca [206.123.6.116]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA13288; Fri, 15 May 1998 02:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <355BE067.8B3A010F@aei.ca> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:27:51 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform References: <199805100839.CAA16237@lariat.lariat.org> <199805101059.DAA01506@rah.star-gate.com> <6824-Mon11May1998210214-0400-kriston@ibm.net> <355BC841.69391239@aei.ca> <19980515153345.20830@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG naaa, its because than when you see it with a big screen or with a little, nothing is the same. So the table move like the browser want and its not standarized so each computer dont see the same thing. Also, on a big screen, big resolution, its not usefull and its ugly. Like in the doc, sometime there is 30 word+ for each sentence, hard to read. Its really a simple standarized thing. I have friends who design web page and who are currently changing all there big data to 600(or a little bit more) because than the document will be seen in the same way for each people. Anyway, another thing should be the way we browse it. I personally love when I have a left menu who tel me all thing I want to see the first time. Not searching. Anyway, its only proposition. But you, you use Lynx. Its cool to but you dont care about the design ;-) Cya Malartre Sue Blake wrote: > On Fri, May 15, 1998 at 12:44:49AM -0400, Malartre wrote: > > FreeBSD.ORG need a change. It need to have a more conveniant interface and a > > WIDTH=600 is the standard. Even Linux.org and microsoft.com use it. > > > > Sorry for repeating Sue ;-) WIDTH WIDTH WIDTH! > > I still don't understand at all. Where's the problem? > Even at 640 x 480 it looked fine to me. > > Are you saying it is too wide or too narrow? Where?? Which page? > > What is inconvenient for you? > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu May 14 23:30:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20845 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:30:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA20836 for ; Thu, 14 May 1998 23:30:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@pm01-16.aei.ca [206.123.6.116]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA13393; Fri, 15 May 1998 02:30:21 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <355BE0D1.3B4A80DB@aei.ca> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:29:37 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dwilde1@ibm.net CC: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: FreeBSD Network References: <355B50F5.5A36DF87@ibm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If you do a web ring (does it that than you mean by web circle?), use a little little little graphic. because on a lot of web ring, they use big graphic to represent the web ring they support and that suck. Cya Malartre Don Wilde wrote: > > I like that. My boss wouldn't let me do it on the homepages, but I do > have a very proactive 'about our site' page. > --> Don > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 00:04:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24550 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 00:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from saten.dyn.ml.org (101ppp10.gulftel.com [208.226.46.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24538 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 00:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from advocacy@saten.dyn.ml.org) Received: from localhost (advocacy@localhost) by saten.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA02574; Fri, 15 May 1998 02:01:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:01:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Phillip Salzman To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: Andrew Short , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > for Linux, it spat out a FreeBSD banner at the top of the page ;) > Unfortunately, I just tried that, and it spat out a Linux banner :( > What changed? $$$Money$$$ Yahoo needs ads, some company came along and asked them if they could put their ad on the Linux page for so many dollars, Yahoo! accepted. Yahoo! wants money, Yahoo! needs money to survive. I do not blame them, before this Linux ad IBM had an add for an RS/6000 server or something of the like. We should see about getting our ad back up on yahoo!'s linux section, though. Phillip Salzman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 00:10:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA25615 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 00:10:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@[204.188.254.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA25604 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 00:10:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id AAA07541; Fri, 15 May 1998 00:11:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 00:11:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: kaput cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Preliminary Tenets - FreeBSD User Group In-Reply-To: <355B3350.33B71650@whoever.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 14 May 1998, kaput wrote: [...] > Like BeOS (www.be.com), FreeBSD should centralise what I call FUG (FreeBSD User > Group). BeOS support its group and do a lot of thing for user. Please tell me it's not called BUG ;^) - alex | "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern | | technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." | | Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/ | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 00:15:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA26512 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 00:15:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA26504 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 00:15:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@pm01-16.aei.ca [206.123.6.116]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA15213; Fri, 15 May 1998 03:15:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <355BEB53.BE85BEA5@aei.ca> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 03:14:27 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: "Kriston J. Rehberg" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux as a Mozilla total reference platform References: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------380702F072BE3C206C9C332F" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG --------------380702F072BE3C206C9C332F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Don't you hate it when you have to scroll _left to right_ on some page > that is built around a certain width. UGGGH!! > Well, with 600, no one scroll. I have tested it under all my possible resolution and I cannot in anyway scroll. Test it ;-) See all professionnal page, they are now all like that. Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- --------------380702F072BE3C206C9C332F Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Don't you hate it when you have to scroll _left to right_ on some page
that is built around a certain width. UGGGH!!
 

 Well, with 600, no one scroll. I have tested it under all my possible resolution and I cannot in anyway scroll.
Test it ;-)
See all professionnal page, they are now all like that.

Malartre

--
--------------------------------------------------
malartre@aei.ca         ICQ #4224434
www.aei.ca/~malartre/   FreeBSD 4 Newbies project
Windows_95-B            Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6
--------------------------------------------------
  --------------380702F072BE3C206C9C332F-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 05:24:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12209 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 05:24:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12019 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 05:23:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14256; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:09:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <355C309C.10A44864@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:10:04 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: FreeBSD-Advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Yahoo! References: <199804210154.SAA22142@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG David Greenman wrote: > > >Why not asking Yahoo to put a little link, on the first page "Why > >Yahoo is so fast" or simply "FreeBSD" > >Am I asking the impossible or can we do that? > > We've asked. Many times. they managed one for NetApp :-( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 06:39:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24040 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 06:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.rci.net (mail.rci.net [209.40.33.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA24024 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 06:38:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jar@rci.net) Received: from rci.net (apollo.rci.net [209.40.33.1]) by mail.rci.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05988 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 09:34:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jar@rci.net) Message-ID: <355C0C34.11988B16@rci.net> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:34:44 +0000 From: Jack Rusher Organization: RCI.NET X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Phillip Salzman wrote: > > We should see about getting our ad back up on yahoo!'s linux > section, though. Is FreeBSD.org backed up with a company that Yahoo could claim a tax deduction for donating ad space to? If we could be a NFP charity (benefit the computer users of the world), that would let us do all sorts of things... -jack -- bash-2.00$ uname -snmr FreeBSD apollo.rci.net 3.0-CURRENT i386 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 08:55:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA15261 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 08:55:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from micro.internexus.net (root@internexus.net [206.152.14.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA15243 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 08:55:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cliff@cliffsworld.com) Received: from mother (ppp15.internexus.net [206.152.14.207]) by micro.internexus.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA01709 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:55:30 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980515115234.008e7400@mail.internexus.net> X-Sender: compatriot@mail.internexus.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:52:34 -0400 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: cliff ainsworth III Subject: FreeBSD a 501c3? was BSD vs Linux In-Reply-To: <355C0C34.11988B16@rci.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >If we could be a NFP charity. I thought FreeBSD was an NFP. Has the organization ever filed for the 501c3 status. If not they should. It would make it easier for companies to donate back to "the cause", equipment or $$$ if they get something "in return". If FreeBSD already has the status then it should be posted (and used in marketing) somewhere on the site. It would help build better ties with us and corporate world. I mean aside from which corporate entities actually use FreeBSD, what really differentiates us from an OS like bmpk <> (of which I am not being derogatory about bpmk, because thats how it all starts, with an idea), at least from a corporate standpoint. We have a great stable OS, great apps. If corporations could use us our product, donate back to us and then take a tax write off to almost any amount w/in reason. That would put us ahead of the game considerably. Perhaps that is why Redhat and Caldera penguin products sell. Because they are actual companies that project some sort of "official status" even if it is one they have its customers pay support for. It's customers have a official finger to point at when there is a problem. Its the entity that gives people comfort in saying "they aren't going anywhere". Maybe whomever is thinking about the marketing should look along these lines. I could be mistaken I am not really sure if this org is an NFP. I never really checked. If so please disregard this. If not I would be interested in helping FreeBSD get theirs. Think about it, Greenpeace is a NFP, they had their ship torpedoed by the French and they got another ship. -cliff ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- -You look at things you do not understand and say-Why? I dream about things that could never be and say-Why not? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 10:03:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29643 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:03:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA29627 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:03:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: (from jkh@localhost) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05044 for advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:03:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:03:23 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Message-Id: <199805151703.KAA05044@time.cdrom.com> To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: On the subject of O'Reilly FreeBSD books... Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG http://www.oreilly.com/ask_tim/freeBSD.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 10:14:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA01727 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:14:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out1.ibm.net (out1.ibm.net [165.87.194.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01717 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-19.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.19]) by out1.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA10020; Fri, 15 May 1998 17:12:48 GMT Message-ID: <355C7781.3E674630@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:12:33 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phillip Salzman CC: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Andrew Short , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD vs Linux References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Even if we only get the ad 1/100 of the time, it would be visible.Of course, I'm sure Jordan has asked this same question lots of times.... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 10:29:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03562 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:29:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03552 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:29:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (kaput@dialB02.aei.ca [206.123.6.86]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA16687; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:29:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <355C7B56.1E263F0@aei.ca> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:28:54 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex CC: kaput , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Preliminary Tenets - FreeBSD User Group References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Alex wrote: > On Thu, 14 May 1998, kaput wrote: > [...] > > Like BeOS (www.be.com), FreeBSD should centralise what I call FUG (FreeBSD User > > Group). BeOS support its group and do a lot of thing for user. > > Please tell me it's not called BUG ;^) > > - alex > Doh, yes ;-) I'm so original Malartre -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 10:43:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05313 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:43:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05291 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:43:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05233; Fri, 15 May 1998 10:43:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: cliff ainsworth III cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD a 501c3? was BSD vs Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 15 May 1998 11:52:34 EDT." <3.0.5.32.19980515115234.008e7400@mail.internexus.net> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:43:18 -0700 Message-ID: <5228.895254198@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Has the organization ever filed for the 501c3 status. If not they should. > It would make it easier for companies to donate back to "the cause", Actually, this is a common fallacy. I've had more than one BigCorp tell me "thank GOD you guys aren't a 501(c)3 - we have much more convoluted rules for dealing with those and we get a better tax write-off just sending money to FreeBSD, Inc. and writing it off as a development expense." Tax laws are more arcane than most people think, and running the corp as a 501(c)3 would also have several other bad effects: 1. The extra accounting work would cost at least $1K/yr and also drive me insane to boot. You exist only on the IRS's sufferance as a non-profit and they examine each and every one of those under a microscope every year. It makes tax time a very painful exercise unless you're pulling in so much money a year that you can afford a team of accountants to handle it for you (and we're not). 2. It would prohibit FreeBSD, Inc. from ever getting into any kind of tech support or other creative financial relationship with a large sponsor. There are serious limitations to what you can do as a 501(c)3 and I'm afraid that the usefulness of being such an entity is seriously overrated. - Jordan "who sat for several hours with a high-priced corporate lawyer and had all these things explained to him one day" Hubbard. :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 11:40:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14336 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 11:40:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from boober.lineone.net (boober-be.lineone.net [194.75.152.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14247 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 11:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gurab@lineone.net) Received: from lineone.net (host5-99-60-70.btinternet.com [195.99.60.70]) by boober.lineone.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) with ESMTP id TAA28279 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 19:39:38 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <355C8C23.7AC9A585@lineone.net> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 19:40:35 +0100 From: Christopher Raven X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Linux] (Corel Apps) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6238E2E3617F30F02C2574BE" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6238E2E3617F30F02C2574BE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I use Corel Office Pro here on a Win NT 4.0 machine, so I wrote to Corel regarding porting it to FreeBSD as apparantly have a whole load of others :) The basic reply is apparantly what numbers are we dealing with here, so what numbesr are we dealing with? Has anyone made any progress with this? Chris R. --------------6238E2E3617F30F02C2574BE Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Envelope-Sender: brad@sdcorp.com Return-Path: Received: from www.sdcorp.com (www.sdcorp.com [192.41.83.210]) by boober.lineone.net (8.8.5/8.8.0) with SMTP id BAA20379 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 01:54:58 +0100 (BST) Received: from alexis.sdcorp.com by www.sdcorp.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA29577; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:57:01 -0600 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 14 May 1998 18:51:06 -0600 Message-ID: <01BD7F69.407D77A0.brad@sdcorp.com> From: Brad Caldwell To: "'gurab@lineone.net'" Subject: RE: Fwd: Linux Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:51:04 -0600 Organization: SDC X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Christopher, Thanks for your interest in Corel applications on FreeBSD. We are continually evaluating new platforms of UNIX and we do consider FreeBSD for each new product release. We have been unable to quantify the number of users currently using FreeBSD. If you have any data you can send to us justify a port to FreeBSD then I would welcome your assistance. We have heard from many users that FreeBSD is a stable and robust platform and we would like to service Corel customers on FreeBSD. Thanks for any data you may provide and for your comments. Best regards, Brad Caldwell Corel WordPerfect for UNIX/Linux Product Manager Phone: 801 370 9600 Fax: 801 370 9696 http://www.sdcorp.com On Thursday, May 14, 1998 11:37 AM, Kent Pierce [SMTP:KentP@corel.com] wrote: > > > > > > > > Subject: Linux > > > > Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:12:11 +0100 > > > > From: Christopher Raven > > > > To: custserv2@corel.com > > > > > > > > Dear Sir, > > > > > > > > as a long term user of the Corel Office Professional suite, and > > also > > > a > > > > > > > > user of various UNIX and cloned platforms (including Linux), I was > > > > > > most > > > > pleased to hear of your eagerly awaited step into the free OS fray > > > > > > alongside the UNIX clone of Linux. However, I am saddened to hear > > > > rumours that no such support is to be likewise extended to the > > > FreeBSD > > > > > > > > UN*X operating system which is mine and many other users system of > > > > > > choice. At best I will have to run a Linux emulation in order to > > use > > > > > > > your office suite on my machines. The user base of FreeBSD is > > > > admittedly > > > > smaller than that of Linux yet when it is noted that FreeBSD is a > > > much > > > > > > > > younger (although much more powerful) platform this is hardly a > > > > suprise. > > > > > > > > It would be a mutually beneficial arrangement I am sure for Corel > > to > > > > > > > make available its most excellent software titles on UNIX type > > > > platforms > > > > other than just Linux, FreeBSD being a most obvious candidate in > > > this > > > > respect. > > > > > > > > I look forward to your reply on this exciting prospect. > > > > > > > > Yours Sincerely > > > > > > > > Christopher Raven > > > > email: gurab@lineone.net > > --------------6238E2E3617F30F02C2574BE-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 13:14:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26185 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:14:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (root@gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26164 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 13:14:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (aeiusrD-14.aei.ca [206.186.204.164]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA05756; Fri, 15 May 1998 16:13:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <355CA1F4.AC943382@aei.ca> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:13:40 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christopher Raven CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: Linux] (Corel Apps) References: <355C8C23.7AC9A585@lineone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hum, you should mention BSD, not only FreeBSD. Like I have read the letter from Tim: http://www.oreilly.com/ask_tim/freeBSD.html "I was chatting with Kirk McKusick of Berkeley fame last week, and he pointed out that once the lawsuit was settled, FreeBSD took off, and has about the same growth rate as Linux, only three years behind. He estimates that there are about 1 million FreeBSD and NetBSD users now, vs. about 7 million for Linux." So, we cannot do anything without true number. Maybe you can ask BSDi if they have number and if they are interested in corel product to. Malartre "The BSD team: FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, BSDi" Christopher Raven wrote: > I use Corel Office Pro here on a Win NT 4.0 machine, so I wrote to Corel > > regarding porting it to FreeBSD as apparantly have a whole load of > others :) > > The basic reply is apparantly what numbers are we dealing with here, so > what numbesr are we dealing with? Has anyone made any progress with > this? > > Chris R. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: RE: Fwd: Linux > Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:51:04 -0600 > From: Brad Caldwell > Organization: SDC > To: "'gurab@lineone.net'" > > Christopher, > > Thanks for your interest in Corel applications on FreeBSD. We are > continually evaluating new platforms of UNIX and we do consider FreeBSD for > each new product release. > > We have been unable to quantify the number of users currently using > FreeBSD. If you have any data you can send to us justify a port to FreeBSD > then I would welcome your assistance. > > We have heard from many users that FreeBSD is a stable and robust platform > and we would like to service Corel customers on FreeBSD. > > Thanks for any data you may provide and for your comments. > > Best regards, > > Brad Caldwell > Corel WordPerfect for UNIX/Linux > Product Manager > Phone: 801 370 9600 > Fax: 801 370 9696 > http://www.sdcorp.com > > On Thursday, May 14, 1998 11:37 AM, Kent Pierce [SMTP:KentP@corel.com] > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Subject: Linux > > > > > Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:12:11 +0100 > > > > > From: Christopher Raven > > > > > To: custserv2@corel.com > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sir, > > > > > > > > > > as a long term user of the Corel Office Professional suite, and > > > also > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > user of various UNIX and cloned platforms (including Linux), I was > > > > > > > > most > > > > > pleased to hear of your eagerly awaited step into the free OS fray > > > > > > > > alongside the UNIX clone of Linux. However, I am saddened to hear > > > > > rumours that no such support is to be likewise extended to the > > > > FreeBSD > > > > > > > > > > UN*X operating system which is mine and many other users system of > > > > > > > > choice. At best I will have to run a Linux emulation in order to > > > use > > > > > > > > > your office suite on my machines. The user base of FreeBSD is > > > > > admittedly > > > > > smaller than that of Linux yet when it is noted that FreeBSD is a > > > > much > > > > > > > > > > younger (although much more powerful) platform this is hardly a > > > > > suprise. > > > > > > > > > > It would be a mutually beneficial arrangement I am sure for Corel > > > to > > > > > > > > > make available its most excellent software titles on UNIX type > > > > > platforms > > > > > other than just Linux, FreeBSD being a most obvious candidate in > > > > this > > > > > respect. > > > > > > > > > > I look forward to your reply on this exciting prospect. > > > > > > > > > > Yours Sincerely > > > > > > > > > > Christopher Raven > > > > > email: gurab@lineone.net > > > > -- -------------------------------------------------- malartre@aei.ca ICQ #4224434 www.aei.ca/~malartre/ FreeBSD 4 Newbies project Windows_95-B Unix FreeBSD-2.2.6 -------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 17:00:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29019 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 17:00:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA28976 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 17:00:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id RAA33600 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 17:00:36 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id RAA15635 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 17:00:35 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:59:07 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On the subject of O'Reilly FreeBSD books... In-Reply-To: <199805151703.KAA05044@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 15 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >http://www.oreilly.com/ask_tim/freeBSD.html I noticed that the article _only_ said "we're thinking" on doing a FreeBSD book. So I clicked the link and told Tim I would buy a copy if he did publish "Running FreeBSD." I think this might be good advocacy! Thank you, | Try some of this. It will show you where you're at. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 17:10:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01641 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 17:10:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out4.ibm.net (out4.ibm.net [165.87.194.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01633 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 17:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-39.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.39]) by out4.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA278570; Sat, 16 May 1998 00:10:52 GMT Message-ID: <355CD946.141DFDAD@ibm.net> Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:09:42 -0700 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@ibm.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christopher Raven CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: Linux] (Corel Apps) References: <355C8C23.7AC9A585@lineone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am making a web form to put on FreeBSD.org. We will see what response I get. I am leery of the effectiveness of a passive approach, but I have been outvoted. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri May 15 18:47:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14929 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 15 May 1998 18:47:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14917 for ; Fri, 15 May 1998 18:47:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id LAA06923; Sat, 16 May 1998 11:17:12 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980516111711.Y1953@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:17:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On the subject of O'Reilly FreeBSD books... References: <199805151703.KAA05044@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Fri, May 15, 1998 at 04:59:07PM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 15 May 1998 at 16:59:07 +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Fri, 15 May 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> http://www.oreilly.com/ask_tim/freeBSD.html > > I noticed that the article _only_ said "we're thinking" on doing a FreeBSD > book. > > So I clicked the link and told Tim I would buy a copy if he did publish > "Running FreeBSD." I think this might be good advocacy! How does this sound? On Mon, 13 April 1998 at 14:11:50 -0400, Andy Oram wrote: > I think you campaign of many years has paid off. Thanks to testimonials > about FreeBSD from you and people working for us (as well as plenty of > people on the Net) Tim and Frank now want to print an updated version of > your book. > > I hope you're not like the legendary genie who got so angry being trapped > in a bottle for generations that he turned against those who finally free > him. Want to work together? We're working together :-) It's beginning to look like a separate book, however. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 16 15:52:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21687 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 15:52:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@haiti-105.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.228.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21674 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 15:52:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA23065 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 15:53:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 20:05:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: Linux] (Corel Apps) In-Reply-To: <355C8C23.7AC9A585@lineone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 15 May 1998, Christopher Raven wrote: > I use Corel Office Pro here on a Win NT 4.0 machine, so I wrote to Corel > > regarding porting it to FreeBSD as apparantly have a whole load of > others :) Kinda off topic, but above anything, I wanna see a port of WP 5.1 or 5.1+ (yes the old dos version) for FreeBSD + ncurses. I would gladly pay for that. - alex | "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern | | technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." | | Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/ | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat May 16 16:40:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27434 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 16 May 1998 16:40:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (garbanzo@haiti-105.ppp.hooked.net [206.169.228.105]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA27389 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 16:40:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA25885 for ; Sat, 16 May 1998 16:40:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: zippy.dyn.ml.org: garbanzo owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 16:40:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Alex X-Sender: garbanzo@zippy.dyn.ml.org To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Example web page (kinda) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I recently visited the Digital Unix web page, and with talk of revamping the www.freebsd.org, I thought this might serve as a roll model. It shows a lot of flash at first, and gives you the ability to dig a bit deeper (although DEC decided against putting anything of much depth here). Plus there are numerous links to migration tools, and testimonials. On a side note, following one of their links to Byte Mag's test of which OS makes for the best web server, NT 4.0 was rated higher performance wise than was OpenLinux on identical hardware. *grin* - alex | "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern | | technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat." | | Powered by FreeBSD http://www.freebsd.org/ | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message