From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 22 05:09:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA07287 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 05:09:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA07281; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 05:09:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199811221309.FAA07281@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Tell Micro$oft what you think In-Reply-To: from Charlie Schloemer at "Nov 22, 98 00:31:43 am" To: smiledon@intop.net (Charlie Schloemer) Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 05:09:52 -0800 (PST) Cc: chuck@ucsd.edu, jkb@best.com, danny@AlphaZed.com, wes@softweyr.com, grog@lemis.com, kbyanc@freedomnet.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Charlie Schloemer wrote: > I have to concur on this one, too. Love or hate Microsoft, they're > largely responsible for the the low cost of PC hardware, making their > software accessible and easy for home users. I don't care to ever USE any > of this software in my lifetime, but I enjoy being able to build a killer > system for $1500. FWIW. :-) > Gates often repeats that line....or elaborates on it saying that if cars had developed and car prices fallen as fast as pcs you could drive from maine to san jose on a single tank of gas in less than an hour......detroit responds by saying that is true, if you made it.....the car would explode killing all passengers before you reched the mississippi. the fall in PC prices has nothing to do with MS, neither can one atribute increase in performance to MS. rather intel and and computer makers have been busting their chops trying to keep the hardware improvements from being swamped by MS bloatware. as users of FreeBSD, we should be deeply grateful to these hardware companies....we get all the improvement without suffering any of the MS induced sludge-ware. attribute the speedup to the "market forces" if you will, but dont credit MS with others work. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 22 09:10:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22613 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:10:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.realtime.net (mail1.realtime.net [205.238.128.217]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA22601 for ; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:10:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (qmail 28972 invoked from network); 22 Nov 1998 15:54:41 -0000 Received: from zoom.realtime.net (HELO zoom.bga.com) (root@205.238.183.40) by mail1.realtime.net with SMTP; 22 Nov 1998 15:54:41 -0000 Received: from barnowl (apm5-166.realtime.net [205.238.146.166]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id JAA11219; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:55:57 -0600 Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 10:05:08 -0600 (CST) From: John Kenagy X-Sender: jktheowl@barnowl To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: Charlie Schloemer , chuck@ucsd.edu, jkb@best.com, danny@AlphaZed.com, wes@softweyr.com, grog@lemis.com, kbyanc@freedomnet.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tell Micro$oft what you think In-Reply-To: <199811221309.FAA07281@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Charlie Schloemer wrote: > > I have to concur on this one, too. Love or hate Microsoft, they're > > largely responsible for the the low cost of PC hardware, making their > > software accessible and easy for home users. I don't care to ever USE any > > of this software in my lifetime, but I enjoy being able to build a killer > > system for $1500. FWIW. :-) > > > > Gates often repeats that line....or elaborates on it saying > that if cars had developed and car prices fallen as fast > as pcs you could drive from maine to san jose on a single > tank of gas in less than an hour......detroit responds by > saying that is true, if you made it.....the car would > explode killing all passengers before you reched the > mississippi. General Motors issued a response having some of the coments below (sorry for my paraphrase GM): 1. For no reason whatsoever your car would crash twice a day. 2. Every time they repainted the lines on the road you would have to buy a new car. 3. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, in which case you would have to reinstall the engine. One more (out of many) and my favorite - 4. The air bag would prompt "Are You Sure?" before going off. > the fall in PC prices has nothing to do with MS, neither > can one atribute increase in performance to MS. rather > intel and and computer makers have been busting their chops > trying to keep the hardware improvements from being swamped > by MS bloatware. > Yes, and Bill's comment about the auto industry indicates his very profound lack of understanding of manufacturing in general. It is _precision_ of manufacture which makes the machines that make cars, PCs, the Space Shuttle, the Hubble, etc. possible. Bill's software did not provide SUFFICIENT PRECISION to create programs that drove those machines. Back in the days when PCs were 8 bit and came in baggies we used CBASIC from Digital Research. It could be pushed to millionths of an inch. NOTHING from Microsoft could do it. > as users of FreeBSD, we should be deeply grateful to these > hardware companies....we get all the improvement without > suffering any of the MS induced sludge-ware. > > attribute the speedup to the "market forces" if you will, > but dont credit MS with others work. > jmb Right again, cheap PCs exist because we all were willing to pay for them. Manufacturers fell over themselves to produce ever cheaper and more feature loaded boxes. Bill knew when to wear a suit. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Nov 22 09:20:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23586 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:20:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23563; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 09:20:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4017.ime.net [209.90.195.27]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id MAA07409; Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:19:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981122120911.00a45680@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 22 Nov 1998 12:16:02 -0500 To: John Kenagy , "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Tell Micro$oft what you think Cc: Charlie Schloemer , chuck@ucsd.edu, jkb@best.com, danny@AlphaZed.com, wes@softweyr.com, grog@lemis.com, kbyanc@freedomnet.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199811221309.FAA07281@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:05 AM 11/22/98 -0600, John Kenagy wrote: > > >On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > >> Charlie Schloemer wrote: >> > I have to concur on this one, too. Love or hate Microsoft, they're >> > largely responsible for the the low cost of PC hardware, making their >> > software accessible and easy for home users. I don't care to ever USE any >> > of this software in my lifetime, but I enjoy being able to build a killer >> > system for $1500. FWIW. :-) >> > >> >> Gates often repeats that line....or elaborates on it saying >> that if cars had developed and car prices fallen as fast >> as pcs you could drive from maine to san jose on a single >> tank of gas in less than an hour......detroit responds by >> saying that is true, if you made it.....the car would >> explode killing all passengers before you reched the >> mississippi. > >General Motors issued a response having some of the coments below >(sorry for my paraphrase GM): > > 1. For no reason whatsoever your car would crash twice > a day. > > 2. Every time they repainted the lines on the road you > would have to buy a new car. > > 3. Occasionally, executing a maneuver such as a left turn > would cause your car to shut down and refuse to restart, > in which case you would have to reinstall the engine. > > One more (out of many) and my favorite - > > 4. The air bag would prompt "Are You Sure?" before going off. > > >> the fall in PC prices has nothing to do with MS, neither >> can one atribute increase in performance to MS. rather >> intel and and computer makers have been busting their chops >> trying to keep the hardware improvements from being swamped >> by MS bloatware. >> >Yes, and Bill's comment about the auto industry indicates his very >profound lack of understanding of manufacturing in general. It is >_precision_ of manufacture which makes the machines that make cars, >PCs, the Space Shuttle, the Hubble, etc. possible. > >Bill's software did not provide SUFFICIENT PRECISION to create programs >that drove those machines. Back in the days when PCs were 8 bit and >came in baggies we used CBASIC from Digital Research. It could be >pushed to millionths of an inch. NOTHING from Microsoft could do it. > >> as users of FreeBSD, we should be deeply grateful to these >> hardware companies....we get all the improvement without >> suffering any of the MS induced sludge-ware. >> >> attribute the speedup to the "market forces" if you will, >> but dont credit MS with others work. >> jmb > >Right again, cheap PCs exist because we all were willing to pay for >them. Manufacturers fell over themselves to produce ever cheaper and >more feature loaded boxes. Bill knew when to wear a suit. > >John The PC industry is the way it is for a couple of reasons though. First off, Intel is always looking for a way to make a smaller chip. Second off, Microsoft is tossing money into the Intel pool in order to insure equipment is available to run their software comfortably. One hand washes the others. What I particularly don't like (and this is very typical for Game Consoles, I.e. Nintendo, Sony, etc) is that once a new OS is released, the others are left to fend for themselves. When was the last time a new Super Nintendo game was out? Well probably right before Nintendo 64 came out. That's typical for Windows too. See I don't see this as a problem with, say.. FreeBSD as much, because an upgrade is opening a new window, but also a free window, so you can offset your equipment costs some. At the same time, just about anything will run on FreeBSD, as well as FreeBSD will run on anything. While Netscape may not be too styling on a 486, it'll run at least. Unfortunately Intel thrives on Microsoft's pursuit to make more money. At this time, we need to keep them around. I think you'll find some sort of a massive market where everyone will be making a 'compatible' processor for less though. The bottom line is, if we could find viable competition for Windows (and it seems like we might just be doing that?) then Windows is going to have to do two things. Eliminate Free (Yeah right), or give their users "something for nothing".. In the meantime, at least we have motherboard competition, and cases and stuff. My Dual PII-333 cost probably 1200 bucks, case, board, and processors. Not really bad when I think about it.. That's my rambled input and 2 cents worth. While this may not have anything directly to do with the thread, I figured I'd throw it in anyway. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Nov 23 01:50:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA22915 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 01:50:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.ints.ml.org (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA22891 for ; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 01:50:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@ints.ml.org) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by bamboo.ints.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13094; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:50:49 GMT (envelope-from stuart) Message-ID: <19981123095048.A12954@helan.org> Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:50:48 +0000 From: Stuart Henderson To: Mark Ovens , freebsd-uk-users Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Help: panic: cannot mount root References: <3653EDB0.DE098790@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <3653EDB0.DE098790@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Thu, Nov 19, 1998 at 10:06:41AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Nov 19, 1998 at 10:06:41AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > Can someone help with this pls. > > I gave a colleague one of the free 2.2.6 CD sets. He tried installed > it he got "panic: cannot mount root" immediately after the npx0: INT > 16 interface message. When this happened to me, I had to build a custom kernel with the root device hardwired by using "config kernel root on sd0" in the kernel config. If root is actually on wd0 then I think something weirder is going on. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Nov 23 09:55:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12284 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:55:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12278; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:55:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12668; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:54:36 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd012585; Mon Nov 23 10:54:27 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA18089; Mon, 23 Nov 1998 10:53:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811231753.KAA18089@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Tell Micro$oft what you think To: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com (Drew Baxter) Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:53:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jktheowl@bga.com, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, smiledon@intop.net, chuck@ucsd.edu, jkb@best.com, danny@AlphaZed.com, wes@softweyr.com, grog@lemis.com, kbyanc@freedomnet.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981122120911.00a45680@genesis.ispace.com> from "Drew Baxter" at Nov 22, 98 12:16:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What I particularly don't like (and this is very typical for Game Consoles, > I.e. Nintendo, Sony, etc) is that once a new OS is released, the others are > left to fend for themselves. When was the last time a new Super Nintendo > game was out? Well probably right before Nintendo 64 came out. OK, now that we're on a total tangent for FreeBSD Advocacy... The Famicon (Nintendo) hardware operates by placing a patented MMU chip on each cartridge. This not only increases the per cartridge price, it: o Prevents companies from producing cartridges, except under license from the company, on threat of a patent-based lawsuit. o Lets them charge a per cartridge royalty to each vendor to keep the market price for cartridges fixed. o Keeps all but carefully selected American companies out of the cartridge market. o Lets them quickly end-of-life a previous product by invoking contractual clauses so that the previous product doesn't cannibalize their new product's market. The biggest danger for them is that some other vendor will release new hardware, with more software, at the same time they release their new platform and EOL their old platform. It's very much a closed shop; if you have any complaint against it, then don't buy into the closed shop. But if you make the choice to buy into the closed shop, it's your own fault when you get bitten. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 24 01:43:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29764 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:43:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (smtp.newsguy.com [207.211.168.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA29759 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:43:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcsobral@newsguy.com) Received: (from dcsobral@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id BAA07698 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:43:34 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 01:43:34 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811240943.BAA07698@newsguy.com> X-Mailer: Direct Read Email by Newsguy News Service To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Daniel C. Sobral" Subject: Re: Tell Micro$oft what you think Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At Mon, 23 Nov 1998 17:53:54 +0000 (GMT), you wrote > >OK, now that we're on a total tangent for FreeBSD Advocacy... Tangent? It doesn't even touch... :-) >The Famicon (Nintendo) hardware operates by placing a patented MMU >chip on each cartridge. > >This not only increases the per cartridge price, it: [...] > >The biggest danger for them is that some other vendor will release >new hardware, with more software, at the same time they release >their new platform and EOL their old platform. > >It's very much a closed shop; if you have any complaint against it, >then don't buy into the closed shop. But if you make the choice to >buy into the closed shop, it's your own fault when you get bitten. Well, the new Dreamcast by SEGA goes against this trend. It even supports Windows CE. Or will, once MS gets it's acts together (reading an interview about it, where all the problems they had and have because MS sucks are mentioned in a very polite and diplomatic way, was very interesting, to say the least :). -- Daniel C. Sobral dcs@newsguy.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 24 13:07:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA06598 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:07:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA06590 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA01046; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:07:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981124135919.06c8e850@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:59:58 -0700 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG See http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16107.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 24 14:13:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13789 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:13:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13779 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:13:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA48008; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:14:10 -0800 (PST) To: Brett Glass cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 Nov 1998 13:59:58 MST." <4.1.19981124135919.06c8e850@127.0.0.1> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 14:14:10 -0800 Message-ID: <48004.911945650@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16107.html FreeBSD probably wasn't on their radar. More helpful indeed would any suggestions on your part (and possibly organizational efforts) on what it takes to get on mexican radar screens. As is my usual gripe in advocacy, what we really need around here aren't a bunch of firemen who arrive at the scene of the fire well after it has already consumed the building and stand around saying meaningful things like "This was a fire! It appears to have burned down the building! Fires are bad, someone should do something." Such firemen are obviously of no use at all and should probably go into less challenging professions like chicken inspection or lavatory maintenance. What we need are firemen who actually arrive in time to have a meaningful affect on fires *as they are happening* or can turn practical expertise towards preventing fires in the first place. :-) In this specific case, what would have constituted attacking the fire rather than the ashes would have been to let me know about this well before the selection process took place so that I could have sent these folks some evaluation CDs and possibly a book or two. I send literally tens of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise to schools and other educational programs every year and will continue to do so, but people still have to tell me where to send them since I'm not psychic here, folks! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 24 15:18:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21021 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:18:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from isinet.com (mail.isinet.com [199.4.155.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21007 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:18:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aturoff@isinet.com) Received: by pandora.isinet.com id <113829>; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:08:38 -0500 Message-Id: <98Nov24.180838est.113829@pandora.isinet.com> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:19:14 -0500 From: Adam Turoff Reply-To: aturoff@isinet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? References: <48004.911945650@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16107.html > > FreeBSD probably wasn't on their radar. More helpful indeed would any > suggestions on your part (and possibly organizational efforts) on what > it takes to get on mexican radar screens. If you follow the advocacy trail in this case, it wasn't Linux that won, but rather Gnome, and their linux-friendly development team. http://www.gnome.org/mailing-lists/archives/gnome-list/1998-October/1298.html > As is my usual gripe in advocacy, what we really need around here > aren't a bunch of firemen who arrive at the scene of the fire well > after it has already consumed the building and stand around saying > meaningful things like "This was a fire! It appears to have burned > down the building! Fires are bad, someone should do something." > > Such firemen are obviously of no use at all and should probably go > into less challenging professions like chicken inspection or lavatory > maintenance. What we need are firemen who actually arrive in time to > have a meaningful affect on fires *as they are happening* or can turn > practical expertise towards preventing fires in the first place. :-) Exactly. If we all whine about how nobody uses FreeBSD while we're on our own small patch of sand, FreeBSD won't amount to a hill of beans. We need to advocate among other communities (such as Gnome/KDE, perl, python, apache, tech/business journalists, etc.). [Kudos to anyone actually _doing_ this, Brett & Jordan. :-)] > In this specific case, what would have constituted attacking the fire > rather than the ashes would have been to let me know about this well > before the selection process took place so that I could have sent > these folks some evaluation CDs and possibly a book or two. I send > literally tens of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise to schools > and other educational programs every year and will continue to do so, > but people still have to tell me where to send them since I'm not > psychic here, folks! Sadly, I doubt it would have mattered in this (high-profile) case. It was a win for Gnome, made by local Gnome developers. I honestly don't think FreeBSD is locked out in perpetuity. If there's a case that FreeBSD runs Gnome as well or better than Linux, or if large numbers of FreeBSD desktops were more easily managed than Linux desktops, then it would certainly mean something to the Scholar Net program. The most important thing here is to have a decent amount of wise FreeBSD evangelists making the case for co-existance with Linux (rather than displacing linux). -- Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 24 15:28:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22269 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:28:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22254 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 15:28:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA02349; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:27:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981124155935.064ed4c0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:01:32 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <48004.911945650@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:14 PM 11/24/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16107.html > >FreeBSD probably wasn't on their radar. More helpful indeed would any >suggestions on your part (and possibly organizational efforts) on what >it takes to get on mexican radar screens. > >As is my usual gripe in advocacy, what we really need around here >aren't a bunch of firemen who arrive at the scene of the fire well >after it has already consumed the building and stand around saying >meaningful things like "This was a fire! It appears to have burned >down the building! Fires are bad, someone should do something." The problem is that, because Walnut Creek is really the source for the CD-ROMs, folks here are powerless to do very much. The best we can do is point out that there's a fire and encourage them to do something. The article and its author will be the best sources. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 24 17:02:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04687 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:02:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04673 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:02:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id RAA12736 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:02:10 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id RAA21438 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:02:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 17:01:45 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Fireman + Branding = Firebranding ? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Speaking of Fireman... What happened to the branding discussion during that space of time when majordomo forgot I existed? There was huge discussion followed by silence. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 24 18:03:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11162 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:03:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11133 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:02:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA48611; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:04:07 -0800 (PST) To: Brett Glass cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:01:32 MST." <4.1.19981124155935.064ed4c0@127.0.0.1> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:04:02 -0800 Message-ID: <48607.911959442@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > The problem is that, because Walnut Creek is really the source for the > CD-ROMs, folks here are powerless to do very much. The best we can do Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is complete and total equine exhaust material. As I've frequently stated here, all you have to do is tell me WHEN AND WHERE to send CD-ROMS and they will be sent. The various advocacy-minded members of FreeBSD's user base actually have tremendous power to bring about change with very little effort since all they have to do is identify the targets and someone else (us) will handle all the cost and efforts of dealing with them. This applies to the north american continent and most of Asia (through PHT) as far as shipping and product is concerned and, for CDs going elsewhere, we can at least provide the product for trans-shipment by a 3rd party. This constitues a significant financial committment on our part either way and to say that everyone else is powerless even with such assistance really substantially sells short the efforts of many users to prove the exact opposite over the years. We've done a lot with the CD give-away program and continue to do so. I don't think people really quite realize just how many CDs are provided freely and at substantial expense to Walnut Creek CDROM - I think the 2.2.6 give-away program ran well into high 5 figure amount$ and, indeed, the only reaction we got from Brett was heavy criticism for sending out a product with "known security problems." Sometimes I think it's just impossible to satisfy some folks which, in turn, leads me to wonder whether it's even worth-while trying to do so. Ruminate on that a bit, won't you? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 24 19:59:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19304 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:59:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19297 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:59:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA49191 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:00:41 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:00:39 -0800 Message-ID: <49179.911966439.1@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Future of the `Open Source' trademark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----- =_aaaaaaaaaa" Content-Description: Blind Carbon Copy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG To: undisclosed-recipients:; ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Description: Original Message To: spi@spi-inc.org (Software in the Public Interest) cc: netbsd-announce@netbsd.org, peter@taronga.com, officers@spi-inc.org (Software in the Public Interest), esr@snark.thyrsus.com Subject: Re: Future of the `Open Source' trademark In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:07:59 GMT." <13915.4639.169796.889552@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 20:00:39 -0800 Message-ID: <49179.911966439@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" > I hereby respectfully submit the attached statement for publication via > netbsd-annnounce and comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce, if you feel it > appropriate. > > [ .. position statement on ongoing conflict between SPI and OSI groups > over ``Open Source'' trademark elided .. ] I have approved the posting to comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.announce, but with significant reservations. I won't comment on these proceedings in any depth since I believe your posting already coveys a picture of sufficient grimness that anything negative I might have to say about it would be merely gratuitous, but I will say that this kind of in-fighting isn't doing the cause any good. You know it, I know it, the readers are going to know it when they see this and the only real remaining question will be how long the war is going to waged in spite of such knowledge. Everyone concerned here, from Eric on down, is in serious need of a reality-check if they think that the trademark on the term "Open Source" is worth so much that the work of months needs to be undone over it. People in both the Linux and FreeBSD advocacy camps have invested a lot of time and effort in trying to get the Open Source community taken seriously by business and the mainstream press and the last thing they need is for prominent portions of that community to start hoisting their soiled underwear on flagpoles for all to see and enjoy, right? This may not really be my fight, and I'll make no claims to that effect, but it would nonetheless make me happy to ultimately hear that everyone involved in the two battling groups of peace marchers quickly decided that maybe this wasn't the kind of public spectacle that either group really had in mind and that things needed to just get settled now... quietly... I know that all of you are ultimately on the same side here, you just can't currently work out which group is the Judean People's Front and which is the People's front of Judea. Remember what happened to them in that movie. Work this out, please! :-) - Jordan ------- =_aaaaaaaaaa-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 24 21:52:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29219 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:52:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29201 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:52:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA16670 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:22:12 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id QAA70449; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:21:48 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981125162147.I67961@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:21:47 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Hardware branding (was: Hardware support ?) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In the framework of the branding, should we give some kind of recognition for people who provide programming information? Greg ----- Forwarded message from Andrew ----- > Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 19:54:43 -0800 (PST) > To: freebsd-doc@FreeBSD.ORG > What I was looking for was the person in charge of hardware > support developement. I've just been asking the network > manufacturer CNet about FreeBSD support and their technical > people at least seem to be *very quick and happy to at least > provide information. > Info on the chips etc. is of no use to myself but i thought it > might be of use to the right person so that some point down the > track support can be added for these NICs. > > > Subject: Pro120 support for FreeBSD ?? > > From: Andrew > > To: tech@oa.cnet.com.tw > > Reply-to: Andrew > > Hi, > > I'm hopping to use your Pro120 NIC in our new FreeBSD server > > machines, we are also going to use your CN2060 Hub and would > like > > to use a single manufacturer for our LAN enviroment. > > Dear Sir: > Are you talking about pro120a or pro120b? Pro120a uses either > MX98713FC or MX98713AFC controller, and pro120b uses MX98715EC > controller. We don't have FreeBSD drivers for both pro120a and > pro120b cards. What kind of information on MX chip you need? > Regards, > Technical Support > CNet Technology Inc., Taiwan. > Tech. Support > CNet Tech. Taiwan > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-doc" in the body of the message ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 24 21:57:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29775 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:57:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29770 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 21:57:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA05562; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:55:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981124224816.0645fda0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:53:59 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <48607.911959442@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:04 PM 11/24/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> The problem is that, because Walnut Creek is really the source for the >> CD-ROMs, folks here are powerless to do very much. The best we can do > >Not to put too fine a point on it, but this is complete and total >equine exhaust material. Hmmm.... If your horse produces exhaust, it probably needs tuning. ;-) >As I've frequently stated here, all you have to do is tell me WHEN AND >WHERE to send CD-ROMS and they will be sent. This is good to know! I hadn't seen any such information before. >I don't think people really quite realize just how many CDs are >provided freely and at substantial expense to Walnut Creek CDROM - I >think the 2.2.6 give-away program ran well into high 5 figure amount$ >and, indeed, the only reaction we got from Brett was heavy criticism >for sending out a product with "known security problems." I still think that's so. When you give away freebies, you always want to put your best foot forward! If you hand someone something as a sample with NO WARNING that it could compromise their data and/or the security of their enterprise, you are NOT going to produce a positive result. If ONE HACKER gets in, sets up a packet sniffer, and causes a high-profile security breach at a major corporation, it'll do five figures worth of HARM to FreeBSD's reputation. >Sometimes I >think it's just impossible to satisfy some folks which, in turn, leads >me to wonder whether it's even worth-while trying to do so. Ruminate >on that a bit, won't you? I think it's important to be careful where one ruminates, lest one produce, er, undesirable exhaust material. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Nov 24 23:59:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07786 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:59:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07777 for ; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:59:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA13038; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:59:08 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id XAA08982; Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:59:08 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 23:58:46 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Hardware branding (was: Hardware support ?) In-Reply-To: <19981125162147.I67961@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: >In the framework of the branding, should we give some kind of >recognition for people who provide programming information? In the spirit of branding, I think that any where the word "software" is used to describe branding one could substitute "hardware" or even the very general word "product". One might be concerned about diluting the conciseness of the branding effort into something that is barely comprehensible because it's scope has grown too large. Food for thought. Don't forget the fledgling www.openhardware.org who are trying to do this very thing for the community at large. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 00:31:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA10099 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:31:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.scancall.no (www.scancall.no [195.139.183.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA10094 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:31:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Marius.Bendiksen@scancall.no) Received: from super2.langesund.scancall.no [195.139.183.29] by www with smtp id KGJYTBYK; Wed, 25 Nov 98 08:31:31 GMT (PowerWeb version 4.04r6) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981125093116.00970b50@mail.scancall.no> X-Sender: Marius@mail.scancall.no X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:31:16 +0100 To: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Marius Bendiksen Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981124224816.0645fda0@127.0.0.1> References: <48607.911959442@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >Hmmm.... If your horse produces exhaust, it probably needs tuning. ;-) Which is what I believe he's been trying to do on this list, so far. >This is good to know! I hadn't seen any such information before. I can't quite recall seeing it explicitly stated, but I believe I've seen multiple postings that imply such a thing. Also, my memory may be defective, so a posting may have slipped my mind :) >I still think that's so. When you give away freebies, you always want >to put your best foot forward! If you hand someone something as a sample >with NO WARNING that it could compromise their data and/or the security >of their enterprise, you are NOT going to produce a positive result. If >ONE HACKER gets in, sets up a packet sniffer, and causes a high-profile >security breach at a major corporation, it'll do five figures worth of >HARM to FreeBSD's reputation. Better to take a slap to the face and get back in there, rather than to slide into oblivion. In fact, they might get a first-hand chance at seeing how FreeBSD handles bug reports, and how quickly such things are fixed. Ever think about what impact -that- might have? They might realize that we -fix- the problems asap. We need PR. >I think it's important to be careful where one ruminates, lest one >produce, er, undesirable exhaust material. ;-) Always a good idea. However, Jordan does recieve little gratitude for his actions, it seems to me, and quite a lot of critizism. People are generally better at pointing out what should be done differently than they are at pointing out what's being done right.. You're doing a great job, jordy. The effort *is* worth it. --- Marius Bendiksen, IT-Trainee, ScanCall AS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 00:51:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11591 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:51:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from DegNet.de (degnet.de [194.95.214.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA11393 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 00:47:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from malte.lance@gmx.net) Received: from neuron.webmore.prv (GateWay [192.168.168.1]) by DegNet.de (8.8.8/8.8.8/Debian/GNU) with ESMTP id JAA22631; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:46:15 +0100 Received: from neuron.webmore.prv (neuron.webmore.prv "Malte Lance") by neuron.webmore.prv (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA05429; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:35:33 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199811250835.JAA05429@neuron.webmore.prv> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 09:35:32 +0100 (CET) From: Malte Lance Reply-To: malte.lance@gmx.net Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com cc: brett@lariat.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <48004.911945650@zippy.cdrom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG So dear Jordan, please have a look at the following link: http://www.unesco.org/events/latin/cd_linux_ing.html This is an UNESCO supported project for OS-CDROM-giveaway. For now they are giving-away just RedHat-CDROMs :( Maybe here is a chance to advocate FreeBSD. They were unresponsive to my advocating mail. Malte. On 24 Nov, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/16107.html > > FreeBSD probably wasn't on their radar. More helpful indeed would any > suggestions on your part (and possibly organizational efforts) on what > it takes to get on mexican radar screens. > > As is my usual gripe in advocacy, what we really need around here > aren't a bunch of firemen who arrive at the scene of the fire well > after it has already consumed the building and stand around saying > meaningful things like "This was a fire! It appears to have burned > down the building! Fires are bad, someone should do something." > > Such firemen are obviously of no use at all and should probably go > into less challenging professions like chicken inspection or lavatory > maintenance. What we need are firemen who actually arrive in time to > have a meaningful affect on fires *as they are happening* or can turn > practical expertise towards preventing fires in the first place. :-) > > In this specific case, what would have constituted attacking the fire > rather than the ashes would have been to let me know about this well > before the selection process took place so that I could have sent > these folks some evaluation CDs and possibly a book or two. I send > literally tens of thousands of dollars worth of merchandise to schools > and other educational programs every year and will continue to do so, > but people still have to tell me where to send them since I'm not > psychic here, folks! > > - Jordan -- Malte Lance. --- composed with TkRat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 03:28:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA23995 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:28:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA23989 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:28:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA50419; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:29:59 -0800 (PST) To: Brett Glass cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 24 Nov 1998 22:53:59 MST." <4.1.19981124224816.0645fda0@127.0.0.1> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 03:29:58 -0800 Message-ID: <50415.911993398@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Hmmm.... If your horse produces exhaust, it probably needs tuning. ;-) All horses produce exhaust. > This is good to know! I hadn't seen any such information before. I've been announcing it after almost every major release for the last 3 years. It has never been a secret and, judging by the thousands of CDs sent out by request, a fairly well-known fact. > I still think that's so. When you give away freebies, you always want > to put your best foot forward! If you hand someone something as a sample All releases have bugs. If I waited for a completely bug free FreeBSD before sending out a single promotional copy, you'd be whining even louder than you do now. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 07:45:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA15962 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 07:45:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA15957 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 07:45:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09136; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:45:04 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <365C25FF.D8809005@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:45:03 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: FreeBSD-advocacy Subject: Re: Fireman + Branding = Firebranding ? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > Speaking of Fireman... > > What happened to the branding discussion during that space of time when > majordomo forgot I existed? There was huge discussion followed by silence. > It fell into the black hole of my lack of experience with SPARC assembly language. I'm up to my a$$ in alligators at work, and haven't had time to do anything in the last two weeks. I will create a web page with the proposed software and hardware products, and the list of names that have been proposed so far, this weekend. By Monday, I should be able to put it on the freebsd.org site. ;^) If you have any further suggestions for names or packages, send them to advocacy with "logo" in the subject line somewhere. Thanks for the kick, Jason. Sorry I've been unresponsive. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 07:53:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA16320 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 07:53:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA16314 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 07:53:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09147; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:53:06 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <365C27E2.9A2CDC03@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 08:53:06 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Hardware branding (was: Hardware support ?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >In the framework of the branding, should we give some kind of > >recognition for people who provide programming information? > > In the spirit of branding, I think that any where the word "software" is > used to describe branding one could substitute "hardware" or even the very > general word "product". One of the major goals of the branding effort is to make new users (and experienced users) aware of what will and won't work with FreeBSD. Another is to get the FreeBSD name on products and web pages, drawing potential users to us. The different levels of branding for software products reflect a goal of "rewarding" software vendors who take the time to make a FreeBSD- specific version of their product, or who produce their product primarily for FreeBSD. I believe this should be reflected in the hardware branding process, too. Vendors who provide complete programming information, who provide hardware for development and testing, who provide driver source for other operating systems as an example, and (yes, we can hope) provide FreeBSD drivers for their hardware should be rewarded with a special brand, and special mention on the product web pages. > One might be concerned about diluting the conciseness of the branding > effort into something that is barely comprehensible because it's scope has > grown too large. > > Food for thought. Except if the meaning of the "lesser" brand(s) are "yes, this will run on/in your FreeBSD system" a little dilution would be a welcome thing. ;^) > Don't forget the fledgling www.openhardware.org who are trying to do this > very thing for the community at large. Sounds like a fine place to troll for "brandable" hardware specs. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 10:52:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28807 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:52:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28795 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 10:52:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA10377; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:52:19 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981125114645.06a7c070@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:50:30 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <50415.911993398@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:29 AM 11/25/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> I still think that's so. When you give away freebies, you always want >> to put your best foot forward! If you hand someone something as a sample > >All releases have bugs. If I waited for a completely bug free FreeBSD >before sending out a single promotional copy, you'd be whining even >louder than you do now. There's a fundamental point is not addressed here. When a security hole has been discovered and publicized, the risk to users installing the old version is extremely high. Before that time, it's close to nil. Thus, the issue is not whether there are ANY bugs. It's whether there are known security holes for which scanning programs and scripted exploits exist. This is what sends the risk into the stratosphere and makes the disks "unsafe at any speed." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 11:52:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03981 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:52:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03975 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:52:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA11858; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:50:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA24080; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 11:50:55 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id MAA17186; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:50:54 -0700 Message-ID: <365C5F9D.F793AEB1@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:50:53 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass CC: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where wasFreeBSD? References: <4.1.19981125114645.06a7c070@127.0.0.1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:29 AM 11/25/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >> I still think that's so. When you give away freebies, you always want > >> to put your best foot forward! If you hand someone something as a sample > > > >All releases have bugs. If I waited for a completely bug free FreeBSD > >before sending out a single promotional copy, you'd be whining even > >louder than you do now. > > There's a fundamental point is not addressed here. When a security > hole has been discovered and publicized, the risk to users installing > the old version is extremely high. Before that time, it's close to > nil. > > Thus, the issue is not whether there are ANY bugs. It's whether there > are known security holes for which scanning programs and scripted > exploits exist. This is what sends the risk into the stratosphere > and makes the disks "unsafe at any speed." But Brett, you just continually refuse to accept the fact that by the time ANY system goes from development to field acceptance, the probability of such security flaws being uncovered is nearly 100%. ANY system. No system is perfect, and the script kiddies and their cracker task- masters are continually probing and learning more. As they learn more and break systems, we learn more and fix them; it's a symbiotic (well, parasitic) relationship. Are you under the impression you WOULDN'T have gotten hacked last summer if you been running Linux, Solaris, HP/UX, or Windows NT? It's long past time to admit the problem was caused by nobody being at home when the exploit occurred, rather than any inherent evil in FreeBSD, and JUST GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE! -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 12:19:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06416 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:19:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06408 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 12:19:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA11336; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:19:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981125131123.04295ed0@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:17:23 -0700 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where wasFreeBSD? Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <365C5F9D.F793AEB1@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19981125114645.06a7c070@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:50 PM 11/25/98 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >But Brett, you just continually refuse to accept the fact that by the >time ANY system goes from development to field acceptance, the >probability of such security flaws being uncovered is nearly 100%. >ANY system. > > >No system is perfect, and the script kiddies and their cracker task- >masters are continually probing and learning more. As they learn more >and break systems, we learn more and fix them; it's a symbiotic (well, >parasitic) relationship. True. But to give someone an old disk with known exploits is to throw a new user into the line of fire without even the advantage YOU have (since you, at least, have the latest version in which most of the newly discovered exploits have been fixed). It is not, to my way of thinking, an ethical or beneficial thing to drop the new user into the deep end of a pool... full of pirhana. >Are you under the impression you WOULDN'T have gotten hacked last >summer if you been running Linux, Solaris, HP/UX, or Windows NT? No. Why would you infer this from my earlier message? >It's long past time to admit the problem was caused by nobody being >at home when the exploit occurred, rather than any inherent evil in >FreeBSD, and JUST GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE! No; the problem was due to negligence on the part of engineers at Qualcomm. The fact that I didn't get out of the car in the middle of the highway the instant the manufacturer announced a recall on the brakes doesn't mean that the manufacturer is absolved of negligence. --Brett > >-- > Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? > >Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 >Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 15:00:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23723 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:00:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23712 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:00:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA03217; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:01:35 -0800 (PST) To: Brett Glass cc: Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where wasFreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 Nov 1998 13:17:23 MST." <4.1.19981125131123.04295ed0@127.0.0.1> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:01:35 -0800 Message-ID: <3213.912034895@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > No; the problem was due to negligence on the part of engineers at > Qualcomm. The fact that I didn't get out of the car in the middle of > the highway the instant the manufacturer announced a recall on the > brakes doesn't mean that the manufacturer is absolved of negligence. Oh bah... I think it's time to simply face the fact that your point of view on this matter is not really in line with that of most other folks and we might as well switch to a more productive and amusing line of bizarre claims, like whether or not the russians were the first to invent television or if the Pentium II processor is really alien technology from Area 51. I find either of those subjects to be far more credible than claims that security is anything but the responsibility of the administratory and 100% HIS FREAKIN' FAULT when things go wrong. Sorry, Brett, but at no time during this issue have you even come close to convincing me that anything else is true in your particular case. I agree that negligence was a cause here, I just don't agree that it was on Qualcomm's part (the bug was theirs, certainly, but negligence begins at home). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 15:35:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27692 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:35:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA27687 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:35:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA08686; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:50:05 GMT (envelope-from nik) Message-ID: <19981125215005.29999@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:50:05 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? References: <48607.911959442@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981124224816.0645fda0@127.0.0.1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981124224816.0645fda0@127.0.0.1>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Nov 24, 1998 at 10:53:59PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Nov 24, 1998 at 10:53:59PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >As I've frequently stated here, all you have to do is tell me WHEN AND > >WHERE to send CD-ROMS and they will be sent. > > This is good to know! I hadn't seen any such information before. Someone (anyone) please put together a page of information about this. It doesn't need to say much -- just what's being given away, how to request it, who to contact, how much it costs. I'll have it on the web site within 24 hours of receiving it. If no one wants to do this, it'll go on my TODO list. But that's getting too long already. N -- C.R.F. Consulting -- we're run to make me richer. . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 15:37:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27918 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:37:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA27908; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:37:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA14546; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:32:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA01756; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 15:32:57 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id QAA20453; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:32:56 -0700 Message-ID: <365C93A8.95E3C591@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 16:32:56 -0700 From: Wes Peters Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where wasFreeBSD? References: <3213.912034895@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > ... we might as well switch to a more productive and amusing > line of bizarre claims, like whether or not the russians were the > first to invent television or if the Pentium II processor is really > alien technology from Area 51. Jordan, Jordan, how many times do I have to explain this to you? The Pentium II was invented in Area *54*, which is somewhat north and west of Area 51. Area 54 is part of a secret Air Force installation at Hillsboro Air Force Base, which has been cleverly disguised to look like a small private airport from the outside. ;^) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 18:08:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12289 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:08:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA12258 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:08:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA20348; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:37:23 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA14465; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:37:21 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981126123721.N67961@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:37:21 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Robert Evans Cc: Alicia da Conceicao , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux References: <19981125121332.C3501@cc.ic.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Todd Vierling on Wed, Nov 25, 1998 at 10:24:53AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, 25 November 1998 at 10:24:53 -0500, Todd Vierling wrote: > On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Robert Evans wrote: > > : The best we can hope for is friendly cooperation, and I think to a > : large extent NetBSD and FreeBSD have achieved that over the last couple > : of years > > And this is a good point that I'd like to link with trade shows above. > > I know we have political differences, but if we can find people from each of > the free-source *BSD's out there, and maybe even someone from BSD/I to > represent the commercial factor, perhaps we can get a collective, or > neighboring, display/booth at some trade show? > > This is pipe dream, of course, because I can see the colossal potential for > infighting in my head just as I write this. Still, it would be a > possibility. It sounds like a good idea, and possibly also a good time to talk about it, though I'm not the person to carry it on. For those of you who don't know me, I'm the author of ``The Complete FreeBSD'', and I've been relatively active in the FreeBSD advocacy group. I've just subscribed to NetBSD-advocacy and (OpenBSD)-advocacy, and I'm copying both lists as well as the FreeBSD-advocacy. Note for the paranoid: in the following, where I refer to the three free BSDs, I'll do it in alphabetical order. It should not be taken to imply any preference. Most of you will know about Daemon News, which was one effort we made in this direction. I believe there are other things that the different *BSDs can do together; I'll expound on this below around the framework of Herb Peyerl's message, and also in a separate message on a related subject. Here are the relevant parts of Herb's message: > Alicia da Conceicao wrote: >> I've just recently returned from Comdex in Las Vegas. While I was there, >> I conducted a number of interviews, with a number of organizations and >> individuals for Internet Paper. Based on the responses I have received, >> as well as information from other sources including the web, mailing >> lists, news sources, and other publications, it would appear that Linux >> (which is already the most popular ix86 Unix OS) is gaining in some of >> its growth at the expensive of BSD based Unixes, including NetBSD. More >> alarming, this trend appears to be predominate among new Unix adoptees. > > I don't think that is particularly "alarming" myself... It seems perfectly > natural that people should try other products... For the most part, I > know many people who have tried NetBSD, FreeBSD, and Linux and have > come back to NetBSD. I'm sure there are cases where people have tried > all three and chosen one of the others. I think this is a perfectly > acceptable outcome... As long as they don't try all three and choose > W98... We know that the vast majority of the populace will choose > mediocrity when presented with all the choices. This is true in general. I suppose the most interesting thing in this message is that it would sound just about the same in a FreeBSD context if all instances of FreeBSD were replaced by NetBSD and vice-versa. I agree with Herb that things aren't alarming, and for the same reasons. >> Part of the problem with NetBSD is that it is one of several "forks" or >> splits from BSD, which also include FreeBSD, OpenBSD, BSDI, etc. This >> splitting up of BSD into the different forks has divided up the talent >> pool of BSD developers, benefiting non-forked operating system like >> Linux. > > The last time I looked, which was quite recent mind you, I found that > there were quite a large number of Linux distributions all with different > goals and different contents. In fact, I found that there were more > "Linux operating systems" than there are currently BSD operating systems. > How can you claim that Linux is a non-forked operating system? How similar > is Redhat with Debian? How similar is the Amiga version of "Linux" to > the Sparc version of "Linux"? How 'bout the Alpha version? To my knowledge, > they don't even share the same source repository... What exactly _is_ > "Linux"? Linux is to Unix as Hamburgers are to the food industry. You > can buy hamburgers from any of a thousand different vendors and they're > all different... To be fair here, the Linux distributions all use the same kernel. It's the kernel that would make it difficult to merge FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD, assuming this should be desirable. >> NetBSD, FreeBSD, and OpenBSD are all open source, and each of them have >> their own advantages over the other. Now is the time that people put >> their egos aside and perhaps at least talk about merging some components >> of these BSD operating systems, including kernels, drivers, etc., taking >> the best features from each. Only then can we establish a BSD based OS >> as the real non-Linux Unix alternative; something that Sun Solaris, SCO, >> OSF, etc. are also trying to do. > > We have been told repeatedly, over the years, that "now is the time that > people should put their egos aside and perhaps at least talk about > merging some components." In fact, at one point, we did "talk" about > merging some components... At the time, we couldn't even agree on how to > go about merging... The problem was not _ego_ however; it was a result of > widely different goals that were not mutually compatible; and in the end, > it was decided that we were all best off the way we are. Agreed, mostly. Ego still is a problem, I suspect, but it's not the main problem. There's also still the question: ``Is it worthwhile?'' Obviously we need a minimum quorum of people to keep kernel development working. I believe that this is quite small, not more than two or three people, so all three BSDs fulfil this requirement. Having separate development groups may appear to dilute the efforts, but it also sustains multiple platforms for testing out alternative approaches. For the same reason, I believe that Linux has a place, and I'd be sad to see BSD take over so completely that Linux went away altogether (some hope, anyway). Don't forget that there's a lot of cross-pollination between the four systems. Having said that, it *might* be a good idea to agree on certain interfaces, so that for example a driver for one of the BSDs could be ported to the others with a minimum of pain. But even there, there are practical considerations which oppose the idea. >> I would be most interested in hearing from other NetBSD users about the >> idea of possible merging the BSD OS forks back together, especially from >> those of you who are actively involved in NetBSD OS development. > > From my own perspective; there's a lot of water under the bridge. Some > of it is moving and some of it is just swirling around... When standing > on the outside, it must seem quite obvious that the one true answer is > to merge all of the *BSD's and create one true BSD to go forth and > conquer the world... However, from the inside, it is not so plain and > in fact, becomes a non-goal due to the wildly conflicting goals and > directions that we've all taken. If you propose to merge the goals and > direction and try to corral up all the wild horses, you will kill off > most of the true thoroughbreds and end up with a mish-mash that will > really go stagnant... Well, what would to happen is that the best would escape and form new herds. Just look at history. One of the most frequent questions we see on FreeBSD-questions (after ``What's the difference between FreeBSD and Linux?'') is ``What's the difference between FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD?''. One thing the three advocacy groups could do it come up with a good, neutral answer. In this connection, look out for my next message (promised above): I'm writing an article for SunWorld about the return of the BSD. I'd like help from anybody who can shed more light on the NetBSD and OpenBSD perspectives, both of which are interesting for people with old Sun hardware. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 19:05:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA16901 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:05:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA16894 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:05:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA00536; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:07:08 -0800 (PST) To: Nik Clayton cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:50:05 GMT." <19981125215005.29999@nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:07:07 -0800 Message-ID: <533.912049627@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Someone (anyone) please put together a page of information about this. > It doesn't need to say much -- just what's being given away, how to > request it, who to contact, how much it costs. Put it on your advocacy page. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 19:29:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18960 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:29:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from corinne.cpio.org ([207.88.211.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA18945 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:29:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkatz@corinne.cpio.org) Received: (qmail 5886 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Nov 1998 03:38:53 -0000 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:38:53 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Joseph Max Katz" X-Sender: jkatz@corinne To: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org cc: jkatz@cpio.net Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <19981126123721.N67961@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: X-Silly-Sender: Mr. Potatoe Head Organization: CPIO Networks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Great, now I'm adding my $.01. In the past this has been considered flame bait, but I've now seen that all three communities won't slam each other at the first opportunity. Way to go, guys (and gals!) As a sometimes-user of the various distributions at various points in time, each OS has its own niche and its own benefits. Each OS productively borrows from one another-- NetBSD applies some of the OpenBSD security patches, OpenBSD takes the ASM IP Checksumming from FreeBSD, FreeBSD is now multi-platform. One day OpenBSD (or NetBSD) will integrate the FreeBSD ARM port, OpenBSD will add more utilities to its basic distribution (based on adding lynx and Apache you can tell it is heading that way.) Sooner or later the BSDs will have more in common than they do different. Any secton in the following starting out with "IMHO" is not flame bait, but my opinion. Send me PRIVATE mails blasting me on those if you don't like what I say. I'm speaking for MYSELF, not for any project. I see exactly four BIG problems with any merging-- 1: The technical aspect-- (off the top of my head) o messaging all device drivers to one format for this new "mega" 'vmunux' This will be the greatest strength gained-- a great collective pool which will ensure BSD for generations :) . IMHO-- we need to make as many of these drivers as machine independant as possible. Even if the gscbus is only found on PA-RISC machines, we should be able to compile it onto an i386 kernel if we really, really want to. o making sure all syscalls/libaries are backwards compatible with the current setups on all systems. ("foo" on FreeBSD/i386 should run the same on this new kernel as it used to.) o distribution layout. We all nitpick. OpenBSD follows the decree in the BSD Net/2 README to the letter. FreeBSD, if I remember from experience correctly, is slightly different. I can't speak for NetBSD. . IMHO-- I prefer the Net/2 decree out of anything else I've seen. If folks have something better, please step forward o IMHO re-entrent kernel. It's debateable, but if we're going to merge the codebase we should do this. This will make SMP work correctly on all architectures. We could also make SMP work across the board, and make it as MI as possible. 2: The licensing aspect-- o (Let me annotate this by saying that I'm not an expert on what each project is doing or not doing) I think FreeBSD and OpenBSD have pretty similar licensing schemes as of late (BSD +notification of other code.) I know NetBSD has some funky licensing in the compiler tool chain of its alpha port, and also (I think) in some of the machine dependant code. We'd need some folks to clear this up. 3: Packaging/installation-- o IMHO We need a solid packaging system. Someone on misc@openbsd.org touted we should move to RPM. RPM is REDHAT Package Manager. We need our own. I propose ".bsz" -- gziped, tarred + header with info on arhitecture + version + dependencies. Ever install a SparcLinux RPM onto a i386 RedHat system? :) o IMHO Release distributions. Base + extended utils + programming tools + X + kernel source + full source. Easy to use install manager. I heard FreeBSD is paying someone to write a really, really, really good installer. How easily can this be ported to other architectures. On OpenBSD these days there is a SINGLE floppy-ramdisk install on most architectures. Even if the box doesn't support floppy, as long as it can boot from the drive it loads the ramdisk and you can do the install. o Release schedules o At the last FreeBSD user group meeting was at, jkh admitted to being behind its deadlines. (This was almost a year ago.) o OpenBSD (like clockwork, ready or not) makes a release every six months and only has one version level (2.x, 2.y, etc.) o NetBSD I haven't researched yet. I do know it is different from both of the above. o IMHO we need to forge ahead and commit to release dates and release regardless. We can have major and minor releases-- we make a snapshot release every 6 months, but if we have good stuff going we make a big release (like FreeBSD's 3.0.) 4: Code review-- o ego 'r us. o Each group has its own "core" group with its own level of "trust". o There are no real "documented" rules on how to get CVS commit access with any group other than the unwritten "you code good and often, you in." o We're dealing with groups that have splintered because they couldn't agree on this stuff (among quite a few other things.) o Security. As a security guy and OpenBSD guy as of late we need to constantly audit code-- no new code can be thrown in the tree if it hasn't been looked at. I think Net/Free feel the same way, but I don't know their internal auditing process. o IMHO I'm not a code review guy-- I don't know WHAT we should do with this. If this ever happens, it will be a huge undertaking. If all the "ringleaders" of the *BSD projects lost their egos, joined in a big circle and hugged and said "let's merge" there is no way in hell they'd have the man/womanpower to pull it off and continue the current development. We'd need a leader to lead the leaders if you get my drift. It won't be easy. Jonathan Katz -- jkatz@cpio.net. -- CEO CPIO Networks -- http://www.cpio.net ---- http://www.openbsd.org -- "You know, Picabo Street is now a doctor. They named the Intensive Care Unit after her. It's now the 'Picabo ICU'" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 19:49:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20205 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:49:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhub.nc.com (mailhub.nc.com [207.88.25.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA20198 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:49:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from neil@causality.com) Received: (from proxy@localhost) by mailhub.nc.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) id TAA11847; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:49:10 -0800 Received: from devlab.client.nc.com(172.17.8.88) by mailhub.nc.com via smap (V2.0) id xma011845; Wed, 25 Nov 98 19:49:04 -0800 Message-ID: <365CC08D.F6032E50@causality.com> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 18:44:29 -0800 From: "Neil A. Carson" Organization: Causality Limited X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "J. Joseph Max Katz" CC: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG J. Joseph Max Katz wrote: > Checksumming from FreeBSD, FreeBSD is now multi-platform. One > day OpenBSD (or NetBSD) will integrate the FreeBSD ARM port, > OpenBSD will add more utilities to its basic distribution > (based on adding lynx and Apache you can tell it is heading > that way.) Sooner or later the BSDs will have more in common > than they do different. Huh? Doesn't NetBSD already have an ARM port, and doesn't FreeBSD not have an ARM port? Just a bit confused by that statement :-) Neil -- Neil A. Carson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 20:47:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23801 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:47:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from calvin.saturn-tech.com (calvin.saturn-tech.com [207.229.19.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23789; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Received: from localhost (drussell@localhost) by calvin.saturn-tech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA23830; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:46:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:46:23 -0700 (MST) From: Doug Russell To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tell Micro$oft what you think In-Reply-To: <199811221309.FAA07281@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Charlie Schloemer wrote: > > as users of FreeBSD, we should be deeply grateful to these > hardware companies....we get all the improvement without > suffering any of the MS induced sludge-ware. I'm not so sure about that... Think of the hardware we might be using today if it weren't for MS domination? The last several generations of hardware have been built around running windows. AMD's K6es say "Windows Compatible" on the top, etc.... There's definetly two sides to this argument, and I agree with parts of both. :) You can't try to figure how things would be if they were different. :) Later...... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 20:55:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24329 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:55:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24319; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 20:54:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4037.ime.net [209.90.195.47]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id XAA12751; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 23:54:12 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981125234419.00a52100@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 23:49:43 -0500 To: Doug Russell , "Jonathan M. Bresler" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Tell Micro$oft what you think Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199811221309.FAA07281@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:46 PM 11/25/98 -0700, Doug Russell wrote: > >On Sun, 22 Nov 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > >> Charlie Schloemer wrote: >> >> as users of FreeBSD, we should be deeply grateful to these >> hardware companies....we get all the improvement without >> suffering any of the MS induced sludge-ware. > >I'm not so sure about that... Think of the hardware we might be using >today if it weren't for MS domination? The last several generations of >hardware have been built around running windows. AMD's K6es say "Windows >Compatible" on the top, etc.... > >There's definetly two sides to this argument, and I agree with parts of >both. :) > >You can't try to figure how things would be if they were different. :) > >Later...... Well at the same time we have multifunction machines that only work on Windows (I can't even find a MFP for a MAC).. and the invention of Host-Signal Processing modems, which if I remember right, PCTEL Inc. seemed to pave the way for these.. I don't agree with HSP modems because I don't like the fact that you need a fast machine to decode the signals. At the same time, these proposed "Winmodems" generally lack DOS support (with exception to the Lucent Tech ones, and maybe some others). I use a regular External Motorola Modemsurfr, and then on my FreeBSD machine there is a 25th Anniversary Hayes External, and a USR 28.8 External. Windows may have paved the road to general home computing, but some of these 'amazing inventions' would have been better left on the design table. Personally I aim for hardware that works with just about anything. OS Specific hardware (HSP modems, etc.) infringe on the regular home user that just bought a Compaq from the local WalMart to install FreeBSD across a PPP link... --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 21:09:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25268 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:09:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from calvin.saturn-tech.com (calvin.saturn-tech.com [207.229.19.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA25262; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:09:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Received: from localhost (drussell@localhost) by calvin.saturn-tech.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA23880; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:08:35 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from drussell@saturn-tech.com) Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:08:34 -0700 (MST) From: Doug Russell To: Drew Baxter cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tell Micro$oft what you think In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981125234419.00a52100@genesis.ispace.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Drew Baxter wrote: > Personally I aim for hardware that works with just about anything. OS > Specific hardware (HSP modems, etc.) infringe on the regular home user that > just bought a Compaq from the local WalMart to install FreeBSD across a PPP > link... Now that I re-read my previous post, it doesn't really express what I wanted. I agree here... I'm saying Microsoft has messed things up, and that we would probably be using BETTER, even CHEAPER hardware if it were not for Microsoft. Later...... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 21:32:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26890 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:32:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26885 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:32:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA00824; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:28:52 -0800 (PST) To: "J. Joseph Max Katz" cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 Nov 1998 19:38:53 PST." Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:28:52 -0800 Message-ID: <820.912058132@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > day OpenBSD (or NetBSD) will integrate the FreeBSD ARM port, There is no FreeBSD ARM port. > o distribution layout. We all nitpick. OpenBSD follows the decree in the > BSD Net/2 README to the letter. FreeBSD, if I remember from This is determined by hier(7). > 2: The licensing aspect-- We're rather attached to the 2-clause modified BSD copyright. Our claim to fame is an EASY copyright and I'm certainly not inclined to give this up. > o IMHO We need a solid packaging system. Someone on misc@openbsd.org touted FreeBSD is already working on a new packaging system using paid contractors so that it actually happens this time. We hope to have a technology demonstrator by March of next year; I won't say too much about it except to say that it's considerably more ambitious than any of the existing (Linux, *BSD) packaging systems and does a better job, IMHO, of handling both the front-end and security issues. > o IMHO Release distributions. Base + extended utils + programming tools + X > + kernel source + full source. Easy to use install manager. I heard > FreeBSD is paying someone to write a really, really, really good > installer. How easily can this be ported to other architectures. On That's coming out of the new packaging system since, in a more ideal world, the "installer" is just enough framework to whomp filesystems and disklabels on new disks and then use the package system to populate them. Everything will and should be a package, from the most critical system component(s) to emacs. > o Release schedules > o At the last FreeBSD user group meeting was at, jkh admitted to > being behind its deadlines. (This was almost a year ago.) Actually, what I said was that we didn't seem to be making the aggressive quarterly release schedules we'd set at the beginning of the project and were going to something closer to a 2-3 release per year (on a given branch) schedule. That still commits us to 4-6 releases a year and is probably more than enough work for anyone. I don't believe in clockwork releases either except for cases of extreme delay (like FreeBSD 3.0) where some major whip-cracking is called for to get things unstuck. Otherwise, I prefer to release when things look closer to being ready and make sure that things are ready at least twice a year. The alternative is releases which are frequently bogus. > o Security. As a security guy and OpenBSD guy as of late we need to > constantly audit code-- no new code can be thrown in the tree if it > hasn't been looked at. I think Net/Free feel the same way, but I Who's going to look at every line of code? > We'd need a leader to lead the leaders if you get my drift. It won't be > easy. I'd go further in saying that, for all intents and purposes, it's hard enough to be considered essentially impossible. Perhaps if someone of unimpeachable moral authority like Kirk McKusick were to lead, people would follow, otherwise I can't see any credible candidates amongst the current core superset. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 21:34:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26966 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:34:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sdcc10.ucsd.edu (sdcc10.ucsd.edu [132.239.50.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26957; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:34:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crouilla@ucsd.edu) Received: from localhost (crouilla@localhost) by sdcc10.ucsd.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id VAA12749; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:34:19 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sdcc10.ucsd.edu: crouilla owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:34:19 -0800 (PST) From: Chuck Rouillard Reply-To: chuck@ucsd.edu To: Doug Russell cc: Drew Baxter , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tell Micro$oft what you think In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Doug Russell wrote: > On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Drew Baxter wrote: > > > Personally I aim for hardware that works with just about anything. OS > > Specific hardware (HSP modems, etc.) infringe on the regular home user that > > just bought a Compaq from the local WalMart to install FreeBSD across a PPP > > link... > > Now that I re-read my previous post, it doesn't really express what I > wanted. I agree here... I'm saying Microsoft has messed things up, and > that we would probably be using BETTER, even CHEAPER hardware if it were > not for Microsoft. I believe you summed things up nicely with this previous statement: > You can't try to figure how things would be if they were different. :) > > Later...... -chuck --------------------------------------- Chuck Rouillard | ucsd : chuck@ucsd.edu | ncr : charr@sparc.sandiegoca.ncr.com | --------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 21:40:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27339 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:40:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from corinne.cpio.org ([207.88.211.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA27331 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkatz@corinne.cpio.org) Received: (qmail 11726 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Nov 1998 05:49:46 -0000 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:49:46 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Joseph Max Katz" X-Sender: jkatz@corinne To: FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Swallowing words (was Re: merging the branches) In-Reply-To: <820.912058132@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: X-Silly-Sender: Mr. Potatoe Head Organization: CPIO Networks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oops, Pardon me while I swallow my words-- I got confused on the FreeBSD/ARM issue. I distinctly thought someone told me that such a beast existed. Sorry folks. (I already wrote the NetBSD list about this...) Everyone (at least stateside) go enjoy your Thanksgiving. Jonathan Katz -- jkatz@cpio.net. -- CEO CPIO Networks -- http://www.cpio.net ---- http://www.openbsd.org -- "You know, Picabo Street is now a doctor. They named the Intensive Care Unit after her. It's now the 'Picabo ICU'" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 21:45:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA27594 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:45:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA27589 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 21:45:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA16429; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:45:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981125223954.06d38d50@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:43:24 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where wasFreeBSD? Cc: Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3213.912034895@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:01 PM 11/25/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I find either of those subjects to be far more credible than claims >that security is anything but the responsibility of the administratory >and 100% HIS FREAKIN' FAULT when things go wrong. Sorry, Brett, but >at no time during this issue have you even come close to convincing me >that anything else is true in your particular case. I agree that >negligence was a cause here, I just don't agree that it was on >Qualcomm's part (the bug was theirs, certainly, but negligence begins >at home). Tell you what, Jordan: If you're ever hit by a car, remind me to blame you for leaving the house. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Nov 25 22:12:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29024 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:12:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29018 for ; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:12:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA01049; Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:13:16 -0800 (PST) To: Brett Glass cc: Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where wasFreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:43:24 MST." <4.1.19981125223954.06d38d50@127.0.0.1> Date: Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:13:15 -0800 Message-ID: <1045.912060795@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Tell you what, Jordan: If you're ever hit by a car, remind me to blame > you for leaving the house. Assuming that I was hit by the car while crossing the street outside a cross-walk and without looking first, this is a good analogy if you don't quibble about the fact that the blame would more correctly fall upon my failure to look where I was going than on the act of simply leaving my house. It also supports my point, however, so I guess I'd also have to thank you for the fine analogy and congradulate you on finally getting the idea after having so many people attempt (and fail) to inject it directly into your head with the aid of particle accellerators and such. If you're using getting hit by a car as symbology for "a random act of god", on the other hand, then it's unfortunately a rather poor analogy on account of the fact that it a) shows a fundamental lack of understanding about what precipitates the great majority of auto accidents (driver error) and b) incorrectly equates the perils of system administration with that of random meteor impacts and other events completely outside one's control. A good system administrator has a great deal more control over their environment than that and can take a wide variety of preventive measures not available to the Extinction Event Scenario folks in order to prevent situations exactly like yours from occurring at all. Oh yeah, and transitive closure over a virtualized interface boundry. I almost forgot that bit. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 03:01:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA17757 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 03:01:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from namodn.com (namodn.com [207.33.107.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA17749 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 03:00:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@namodn.com) Received: from namodn.com (antarctica.namodn.com [10.2.5.1]) by namodn.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA18731; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 03:04:02 GMT (envelope-from robert@namodn.com) Message-ID: <365CC4A5.B75CF7FC@namodn.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 03:01:57 +0000 From: Robert Null Organization: Namodn Artists ( www.namodn.com ) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [Fwd: timer on demo] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------9E1ACC7D9891E6FC7B077BD3" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9E1ACC7D9891E6FC7B077BD3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (bounced to the nearest "appropriate" base I could think of @:-) ) Ymrojost@aol.com wrote: > I am interested in software to disable the timer on demo versions of > software. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message #1 - I think you misinterpreted "hackers" This forum is not to discuss breaking software protections, ("cracking" as it's been known) nor is it for discussing unauthorized entry into systems. #2 - FreeBSD commercial support being what it is right now, noone who supports this OS will "help" you to avoid paying for commercial software if you choose to ignore the free alternatives, or refuse to write your own equivalent program. #3 - You get a free OS; gnu can provide you with just about everything you need; you get netscape w/ src, Luigi Rizzo made a great sound driver to alleviate the need to pay for OSS (although it is only 20 bucks) What software are you interested in? There is probly an alternative out there... Why rely on a program from a company who will not support you if you don't pay them, when the free software community is here for you? @:-) -rob ( www.namodn.com ) ( robert@namodn.com ) --------------9E1ACC7D9891E6FC7B077BD3 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <365CC2BF.706827F0@namodn.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 02:53:51 +0000 From: Robert Null Organization: Namodn Artists ( www.namodn.com ) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ymrojost@aol.com CC: freebsd-evangalism@freebsd.org Subject: Re: timer on demo References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (bounced to the nearest "appropriate" base I could think of @:-) ) Ymrojost@aol.com wrote: > I am interested in software to disable the timer on demo versions of > software. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message #1 - I think you misinterpreted "hacker" @:-) This forum is not to discuss breaking software protections, ("cracking" as it's been known) nor is it for discussing unauthorized entry into systems. #2 - FreeBSD commercial support being what it is right now, noone who supports this OS will "help" you to avoid paying for commercial software if you choose to ignore the free alternatives, or refuse to write your own equivalent program. #3 - You get a free OS; gnu can provide you with just about everything you need; you get netscape w/ src, Luigi Rizzo made a great sound driver to alleviate the need to pay for OSS (although it is only 20 bucks) What software are you interested in? There is probly an alternative out there... Why rely on a program from a company who will not support you if you don't pay them, when the free software community is here for you? @:-) -rob ( www.namodn.com ) ( robert@namodn.com ) --------------9E1ACC7D9891E6FC7B077BD3-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 06:30:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA03665 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:30:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA03658 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 06:30:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id HAA19258; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:29:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19981126070852.06d41180@127.0.0.1> X-Sender: brett@127.0.0.1 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 07:13:49 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where wasFreeBSD? Cc: Wes Peters , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1045.912060795@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:13 PM 11/25/98 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Assuming that I was hit by the car while crossing the street outside a >cross-walk and without looking first, this is a good analogy if you >don't quibble about the fact that the blame would more correctly fall >upon my failure to look where I was going than on the act of simply >leaving my house. [Entering Jordan mode and paraphrasing previous message] Oh bah... I think it's time to simply face the fact that your point of view on this matter is not really in line with that of most other folks and we might as well switch to a more productive and amusing line of bizarre claims, like whether or not the russians were the first to invent television or if the Pentium II processor is really alien technology from Area 51. I find either of those subjects to be far more credible than claims that the quality of someone else's driving is anything but the responsibility of the pedestrian and 100% HIS FREAKIN' FAULT when things go wrong. Sorry, Jordan, but at no time during this issue have you even come close to convincing me that anything else is true in your particular case. I agree that negligence was a cause here, I just don't agree that it was on the driver's part (the error was his for jumping the curb at 90 miles per hour, certainly, but negligence begins at home). You should not have left the house without an armored tank. Heck, you should not have left the house period. System administrators should never have lives. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 08:10:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10488 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:10:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10483 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 08:10:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA26502; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:09:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:09:54 -0500 (EST) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Greg Lehey cc: Alicia da Conceicao , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:37:21 +1030 > From: Greg Lehey > To: Robert Evans > Cc: Alicia da Conceicao , > netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, > FreeBSD advocacy list , > advocacy@openbsd.org > Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux > > On Wednesday, 25 November 1998 at 10:24:53 -0500, Todd Vierling wrote: > > On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Robert Evans wrote: > > > > To be fair here, the Linux distributions all use the same kernel. > It's the kernel that would make it difficult to merge FreeBSD, NetBSD > and OpenBSD, assuming this should be desirable. Sure, the kernel is defintely the hard part. How much divergence has there been in userland? I run OpenBSD on a sparc and I see a few things here and there. I wonder how feasible it would be to have a unified distribution with three possible kernel architectures, yet a unified userland? (He quickly ducks for cover.) As long as device files, filesystem and directory hierarchies were agreed to, it seems feasible. This would be one way of reducing redundant work, yet facilitating distinct kernels. It would also over time encourage driver developers both to make their drivers work with the relavent kernels and to make the driver API's converge over time. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 09:58:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA18983 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 09:58:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA18977 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 09:58:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10925; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:56:58 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <365D9654.D15B4217@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:56:36 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" CC: "J. Joseph Max Katz" , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux References: <820.912058132@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'd go further in saying that, for all intents and purposes, it's hard > enough to be considered essentially impossible. Perhaps if someone of > unimpeachable moral authority like Kirk McKusick were to lead, people > would follow, otherwise I can't see any credible candidates amongst > the current core superset. I remain thoroughly unconvinced that merging Free/Net/OpenBSD back into one mega-project provides additional value to the customer. One of the strengths of the BSD world right now is that we have three projects creating BSD software with a different focus: performance, portability, and security, which frequently cross-pollinate each other. As long as we can keep the groups sharing device drivers, applications, utilities and such, there is no overriding need for them to share a common kernel. Many who come from the Win/Mac world fail to understand that our differences make us stronger. Microsoft may have several thousand engineers looking at security issues in WindowsNT/2000, but I'd put my money on Theo and his cohorts, who analyze the security of OpenBSD *because they want to.* Remember, once they have isolated and corrected a problem in OpenBSD, it is much easier for developers of NetBSD and FreeBSD to determine if this problem affects their systems, and how best to fix it, based on the changes already made to OpenBSD. I agree it would be a good idea to share marketing efforts between the groups to some extent, to tell the world how and why BSD is a better solution, and to tell the world about the open, usable BSD licensing model. This doesn't, however, mean we NEED an grand unified FreeOpenNetBSD kernel. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 10:07:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA19723 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:07:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA19716 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:07:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11031; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:07:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <365D98D1.E5FCA46E@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:07:13 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "J. Joseph Max Katz" CC: FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Swallowing words (was Re: merging the branches) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "J. Joseph Max Katz" wrote: > > Oops, > > Pardon me while I swallow my words-- I got confused on the > FreeBSD/ARM issue. I distinctly thought someone told me that > such a beast existed. Sorry folks. (I already wrote the NetBSD > list about this...) An understandable mistake that was perpetuated by DEC and the SHARK eval kit. It came with a copy of NetBSD-ARM, which DEC was mistakenly marketing as FreeBSD-ARM, due no doubt to some confusion at NC Corp. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 10:55:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24326 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:55:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA24292 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 10:55:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.181]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA7107; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:54:38 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:59:30 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "J. Joseph Max Katz" Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux Cc: advocacy@openbsd.org, FreeBSD advocacy list , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sorry for the late joining in the fray, had routing/ipv6 courses last few days... Anyways I hope to provide some insight from my eyes on the whole matter and contribute to a cause I know is worthwhile... Any comments and suggestions are as always appreciated... On 26-Nov-98 J. Joseph Max Katz wrote: > 1: The technical aspect-- (off the top of my head) > o messaging all device drivers to one format for this new "mega" 'vmunux' > This will be the greatest strength gained-- a great collective pool > which will ensure BSD for generations :) > . IMHO-- we need to make as many of these drivers as machine > independant as possible. Even if the gscbus is only found on > PA-RISC machines, we should be able to compile it onto an i386 > kernel if we really, really want to. I have to agree with the aggregration of the all the device drivers of all the BSD's. I think Open and Net could benefit from the FreeBSD CAM effort to name but one example... But this will require a large effort on generalizing all the names probably with some guidelines about future naming... Also the idea of compiling architecture specific things into another architecture is bound to call for problems. config would have to be made that intelligent to see those things... > o making sure all syscalls/libaries are backwards compatible with > the current setups on all systems. ("foo" on FreeBSD/i386 should > run the same on this new kernel as it used to.) A very good idea at the initial stages, the transition period, but after that the whole effort is bound to debate about all the calls and implement one standard instead of three commands each resembling each other but with entirely different results. > o IMHO re-entrent kernel. It's debateable, but if we're going to merge the > codebase we should do this. This will make SMP work correctly on > all architectures. We could also make SMP work across the board, > and make it as MI as possible. On a sidenote, about 80% of Novell NLM (NetWare Loadable Modules) are re-entrant. It has obvious advantages, and mayhaps it's even usable for *BSD... Who knows? ;) > 3: Packaging/installation-- > o IMHO We need a solid packaging system. Someone on misc@openbsd.org touted > we should move to RPM. RPM is REDHAT Package Manager. We need our > own. I propose ".bsz" -- gziped, tarred + header with info on > arhitecture + version + dependencies. Ever install a SparcLinux > RPM onto a i386 RedHat system? :) RPM? Ick... I think the reason people like BSD systems is because the ports still require the original sources instead of binaries. All members of the security lists will agree on the fact that the only thing to trust is source. I guess it's all a matter of preference as we have the ports as well as packages. > 4: Code review-- > o ego 'r us. Ego is bad and yet good. Look at Linus, he wanted World Domination, called Tanenbaum an idiot with regard to some of his ideas, yet he is Jesus amongst Linux evangelists along with his lieutenants Alan Cox and whoever are still there. > o Each group has its own "core" group with its own level of "trust". If I speak of the limited exposure I have had with the FreeBSD core members, I have to say that despite the initial errors I made (and still make from time to time, hey I am learning Jordan ;) they remain the same lot. I don't think that I am wrong in assuming that Jordan is to us as Linus is to the Linux fans. Although we're more of the laid back types to admit it ;) How about Terry Lambert? Greg Lehey? Mike Smith? Satoshi? Etc, etc... Every single person being a bit active on the FreeBSD lists knows these persons and respects them for the tremendous work they commit. Doug White for his constant newbie help. Bill for the ports as well... And I could on and on if I knew Open and NetBSD a little better... I only know Theo de Raadt slightly, but he is like Jordan I guess... A heart for the project. Many people wanted a figure like Linux has in Linus... I never bothered to raise my voice in that discussion, but I will now, we already have them guys... Be them more modest that Linus, we have them... > o There are no real "documented" rules on how to get CVS commit > access with any group other than the unwritten "you code good and > often, you in." The power of the Elite? If I could code the way Mike, Terry, Andrzej, Jordan, Satoshi, Eivind and god knows who I left out from the various projects, I would be honoured to join the ranks of the committers. Unfair to others? Mayhaps, but yet it provides Order in the otherwise resulting Chaos that is Linux and its distributions. > o We're dealing with groups that have splintered because they > couldn't agree on this stuff (among quite a few other things.) You think they could agree again? > We'd need a leader to lead the leaders if you get my drift. It won't be > easy. Sorry... I think you have been looking at Linux a little too much... The Core Teams are the democratic group to take decisions regarding the way we should go. If we would have one person like Linux I foresee even more splintering of the factions... Well, hope ye found my rambling somewhat interesting... If we cannot merge, lets at least try to combine efforts for more co-operation between the 3 camps... Be well mates... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl | Cum angelis et pueris, Junior Network/Security Specialist | fideles inveniamur *BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 11:03:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24785 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:03:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24775 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:03:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.181]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA305E; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:02:42 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <365D9654.D15B4217@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 20:07:36 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux Cc: advocacy@openbsd.org, FreeBSD advocacy list , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, "J. Joseph Max Katz" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 26-Nov-98 Wes Peters wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> >> I'd go further in saying that, for all intents and purposes, it's hard >> enough to be considered essentially impossible. Perhaps if someone of >> unimpeachable moral authority like Kirk McKusick were to lead, people >> would follow, otherwise I can't see any credible candidates amongst >> the current core superset. > > I remain thoroughly unconvinced that merging Free/Net/OpenBSD back > into one mega-project provides additional value to the customer. One > of the strengths of the BSD world right now is that we have three > projects creating BSD software with a different focus: performance, > portability, and security, which frequently cross-pollinate each > other. Divide and Conquer ye mean Wes? Aye, I have to agree and disagree with that argument. Indeed every `camp' focuses on different aspects and I guess that's what kept *BSD so strong in these times... But I think we need some more co-ordination on `standardising' some of the kernel specifics and sources. Why re-invent the wheel when we could spend our time looking at other interesting things to pursue? > As long as we can keep the groups sharing device drivers, applications, > utilities and such, there is no overriding need for them to share a > common kernel. But there could be made some sort of effort of deciding on some common naming for controllers and devices and all that sort of things... > I agree it would be a good idea to share marketing efforts between > the groups to some extent, to tell the world how and why BSD is a > better solution, and to tell the world about the open, usable BSD > licensing model. This doesn't, however, mean we NEED an grand > unified FreeOpenNetBSD kernel. Indeed we don't need a `big' kernel... However the other point ye raised is exactly what I proposed on advocacy a while ago. Some sort of banner, let's say, the BSD ring: FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD (and mayhaps even picoBSD later on). --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl | Cum angelis et pueris, Junior Network/Security Specialist | fideles inveniamur *BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 12:14:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00995 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:14:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00985 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:14:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.181]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA617E for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:13:46 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:18:41 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Netscape/AOL Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Btw, www.opensource.org has an open letter to Netscape about the buy. It addresses the Mozilla effort and Microsoft's attempt to proprietarize protocols and intellectual efforts. FYI, --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl | Cum angelis et pueris, Junior Network/Security Specialist | fideles inveniamur *BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 12:40:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03229 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:40:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sundance.stacken.kth.se (sundance.stacken.kth.se [130.237.234.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03224 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 12:40:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from art@stacken.kth.se) Received: from pizza.stacken.kth.se (pizza.stacken.kth.se [130.237.234.73]) by sundance.stacken.kth.se (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA18091; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:40:09 +0100 (MET) Received: (from art@localhost) by pizza.stacken.kth.se (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA20880; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:41:20 +0100 (MET) To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: Greg Lehey , Alicia da Conceicao , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux References: From: Artur Grabowski Date: 26 Nov 1998 21:41:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin's message of "Thu, 26 Nov 1998 11:09:54 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 31 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG ADRIAN Filipi-Martin writes: > Sure, the kernel is defintely the hard part. How much divergence > has there been in userland? I run OpenBSD on a sparc and I see a few > things here and there. I wonder how feasible it would be to have a > unified distribution with three possible kernel architectures, yet a > unified userland? (He quickly ducks for cover.) As long as device files, > filesystem and directory hierarchies were agreed to, it seems feasible. I have a standard reply to things that people always have good ideas about. "When are you ready?" Speaking about things doesn't improve reality in this case. If you want something like this done you can: - do it yourself. - pay someone to do it. - Convince someone to do it. Generating 1000 mails with good ideas won't write code. Sorry. I'm not picking at someone specific. It's a generic rant to all people that can't stop talking about this. Either accept reality as it is or do something about it. And filling peoples spools doesn't get anything done. Merging the BSDs is easy, just diff(1) and patch(1). If everybody in this thread would just merge one single utility instead of coming with good ideas you would be closer to One World, One License, One BSD. Apparently talking is more important than getting the job done. //art To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 13:02:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05185 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:02:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.GTS.NET (whambam.gts.net [204.138.66.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05180 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 13:02:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tronix!signalpath.on.ca!louis@GTS.NET) Received: from tronix by mail.GTS.NET (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1; 1998-Nov-20) (2553 bytes) via rmail with /P:uucp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp id (sender ) for FreeBSD.ORG!FreeBSD-advocacy; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:01:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from tronix.signalpath.on.ca([192.168.250.1]) (2270 bytes) by tronix via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:smart_host/T:uux (sender: ) id for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:11:04 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #1 built 1998-Jul-27) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 14:11:04 -0500 (EST) From: Louis Bertrand Reply-To: Louis Bertrand To: OpenBSD Advocacy List cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hello all, What I'm reading about here is some sort of super-standard to cover the freenix BSDs (and maybe even BSD/OS). Bad idea even if, as JKH says, we were able to find a master architect. In my experience in the hardware domain, standards favour widespread adoption but stifle innovation. For example the i386 ISA is a dog to design for, but people did it anyway because they could sell huge amounts of hardware. You can make the parallel in the software world with the 640K limit. What in fact we don't want in the BSD world is a monolithic standard that will stifle development. Instead, let's ask ourselves what do we want from BSD (in general). Innovation and cutting edge technology that you won't find anywhere else, or easily unpacked predictable applications? I personally favour innovation. Let's stick to strong guidelines and recommendations, share the ideas and solutions, and promote all flavours. But don't cast anything in stone( that's for fossils). Ciao! --Louis Louis Bertrand, Bowmanville, ON, Canada vox +1.905.623.8925 fax +1.905.623.3852 OpenBSD: Security matters On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > unified distribution with three possible kernel architectures, yet a > unified userland? (He quickly ducks for cover.) As long as device files, > filesystem and directory hierarchies were agreed to, it seems feasible. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 15:22:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15578 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:22:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from omahpop1.omah.uswest.net (omahpop1.omah.uswest.net [204.26.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA15572 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:22:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@open-systems.net) Received: (qmail 22998 invoked by alias); 26 Nov 1998 23:21:58 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 22952 invoked by uid 0); 26 Nov 1998 23:21:56 -0000 Received: from dialupb172.ne.uswest.net (HELO pinkfloyd.open-systems.net) (209.180.96.172) by omahpop1.omah.uswest.net with SMTP; 26 Nov 1998 23:21:56 -0000 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 17:21:54 -0600 (CST) From: "Open Systems Inc." To: Artur Grabowski cc: Adrian Filipi-Martin , Greg Lehey , Alicia da Conceicao , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Im loosing track of what lists this is going to as I cant focus to well visually being totally stuffed with prime rib and turkey. :-) So I hope this is not getting out of control and breaking anyones list charters. Here is my thought. As crazy as it may or may not be. If you want a collaboration between the 3 Free *BSD's why not have a BSD IETF group. Like the 3 primary architects from each *BSD, the kernel architect and the VM, and networking architect. Those 3 architects from each *BSD make up the BSD IETF. Thats 9 members. Those 9 work together to draw out RFC's the *BSD's can follow should they choose to implement something. Like threads for instance. They draw up the RFC on how threads should be done. and *IF* the various *BSD's decide to do threads there still doing it in their own Free|Net|Open BSD circles but they have to conform to the standard BSD RFC for threads. To me that seems about as fair, and non ego'ish as possible. And the most realistic way for cross collaboration. Im not even sure that the 3 members from each group can get along. And it might fail miserably. But in my opinion thats the most feasble way to go. But that means the 3 BSD's have to participate. Im not sure they can get along but IF the 9 can agree on a final RFC that leaves little room for other ego's. That is the way it has to be done. So it is VERY important that the 9 members document WELL THOUGHT OUT, technically sound RFC's. That have as FEW problems and loopholes as possible. That's my idea anyway. And I see it as the best way to get the 3 to get along. But like I said it may also fair miserably. But that is what I would try. Chris "If you aim the gun at your foot and pull the trigger, it's UNIX's job to ensure reliable delivery of the bullet to where you aimed the gun (in this case, Mr. Foot)." -- Terry Lambert, FreeBSD-Hackers mailing list. ===================================| Open Systems FreeBSD Consulting. FreeBSD 3.0 is available now! | Phone: 402-573-9124 -----------------------------------| 3335 N. 103 Plaza #14, Omaha, NE 68134 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting, Network Engineering, Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 15:49:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17760 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:49:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17742 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:49:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA23799; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:18:50 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA31487; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:18:44 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981127101844.X67961@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:18:44 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Open Systems Inc." Cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Open Systems Inc. on Thu, Nov 26, 1998 at 05:21:54PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 26 November 1998 at 17:21:54 -0600, Open Systems Inc. wrote: > > Here is my thought. As crazy as it may or may not be. > If you want a collaboration between the 3 Free *BSD's why not have a BSD > IETF group. Like the 3 primary architects from each *BSD, the kernel > architect and the VM, and networking architect. Those 3 architects from > each *BSD make up the BSD IETF. Thats 9 members. Those 9 work together to > draw out RFC's the *BSD's can follow should they choose to implement > something. Like threads for instance. They draw up the RFC on how threads > should be done. and *IF* the various *BSD's decide to do threads there > still doing it in their own Free|Net|Open BSD circles but they have to > conform to the standard BSD RFC for threads. I think it's a good idea to have some consensus on how things are done. But in the same anarchistic way that the individual BSDs develop, it's unlikely that all groups would agree to implement all points of the ``standard''. On the other hand, it could help limit gratuitous changes, and as Adrian Filipi-Martin suggested, it might make sense to spend more time ensuring a more consistent userland. This kind of initiative could help. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 15:58:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18785 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:58:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18780 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:58:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA03609; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:59:12 -0800 (PST) To: "Open Systems Inc." cc: Artur Grabowski , Adrian Filipi-Martin , Greg Lehey , Alicia da Conceicao , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 26 Nov 1998 17:21:54 CST." Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 15:59:12 -0800 Message-ID: <3605.912124752@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > ["I have an idea, let's form a committee!"] elided. Sounds like work. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 16:32:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23579 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:32:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from omahpop1.omah.uswest.net (omahpop1.omah.uswest.net [204.26.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA23542 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:31:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@open-systems.net) Received: (qmail 5348 invoked by alias); 27 Nov 1998 00:31:45 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 5294 invoked by uid 0); 27 Nov 1998 00:31:43 -0000 Received: from dialupb172.ne.uswest.net (HELO pinkfloyd.open-systems.net) (209.180.96.172) by omahpop1.omah.uswest.net with SMTP; 27 Nov 1998 00:31:43 -0000 Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:31:41 -0600 (CST) From: "Open Systems Inc." To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Artur Grabowski , Adrian Filipi-Martin , Greg Lehey , Alicia da Conceicao , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <3605.912124752@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Of course its work. I've heard before from FreeBSD people that behind the scenes face to face the netbsd and freebsd people can talk and share ideas but once they leave the room and resort to email it just turns into flames and disputes. But I could be mis-informed. In my mind the architects from the 3 BSD's getting together is the best way to go. It's just an idea, that I think has the best chance of working. And im not saying it can be done. The 3 groups may never get along well enough to come together on anything. And thats fine. Im perfectly happy with the way things are. I run FreeBSD, I'm very pleased with the people behind it. As I am sure the NetBSD people are with NetBSD and OpenBSD people with OpenBSD. It would be nice to get us all together in a more coherent manor but that just might not be in the cards. It just seems to me that if you cant get a few of the architects on each side to come together on things the foot soldiers (commiters) are not likely to do so either. Jordan, Theo, and Charles are more likely to know the way things really are. I could be totally out in left field. Greg's idea may be a better idea. It might be better to just forget about the pipe dream of a mutually represented committee of the 3 BSD's, and just try and share ideas and code. Setup a forum to discuss drivers and other code and maybe setup a box that can be used by all. Maybe that wont work either. Who gets commit privs, etc.. I dunno maybe it just cant be done. Unless like someone said earlier someone of impecable standards that NO ONE would argue with like kirk stepped in and tried to get things working. But I think we all know how likely that would be :-) This discussion has taken place many times before and maybe it will just die again and nothing will come of it. But maybe this time something might give. Who knows. Ill be interested in new ideas that pop up and how things turn out this time around though. Seeing the 3 work together would be nice. But im happy if things stay the same. So either way is a win IMO. Chris "If you aim the gun at your foot and pull the trigger, it's UNIX's job to ensure reliable delivery of the bullet to where you aimed the gun (in this case, Mr. Foot)." -- Terry Lambert, FreeBSD-Hackers mailing list. ===================================| Open Systems FreeBSD Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 402-573-9124 -----------------------------------| 3335 N. 103 Plaza #14, Omaha, NE 68134 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting, Network Engineering, Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 16:40:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24151 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:40:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24145 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA03840; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:41:27 -0800 (PST) To: "Open Systems Inc." cc: Artur Grabowski , Adrian Filipi-Martin , Greg Lehey , Alicia da Conceicao , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 26 Nov 1998 18:31:41 CST." Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:41:26 -0800 Message-ID: <3836.912127286@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Of course its work. I've heard before from FreeBSD people that behind > the scenes face to face the netbsd and freebsd people can talk and share > ideas but once they leave the room and resort to email it just turns into > flames and disputes. But I could be mis-informed. I think you're misinformed. As far as I can recall, the last 2 or 3 initiatives have not dissolved in acromony of any sort. That would have represented a far greater investment of energy than was actually expended. :) As I said in my earlier posting on this toic, the plain and simple fact of the matter is that nobody has any time to put into something like this, just judging by past results and current observations to the effect that everyone seems to be just barely keeping their heads above water on smaller scale projects a lot closer to home. Unless someone has something more substantive than just another new rehash of old ideas to bring to the table, it's probably a waste of time to even debate it (yet again). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 16:48:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24740 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:48:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24725 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:48:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA23995; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:18:14 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA31601; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:17:48 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981127111748.B67961@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:17:48 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Open Systems Inc." , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux References: <3605.912124752@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Open Systems Inc. on Thu, Nov 26, 1998 at 06:31:41PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 26 November 1998 at 18:31:41 -0600, Open Systems Inc. wrote: > > Of course its work. I've heard before from FreeBSD people that behind > the scenes face to face the netbsd and freebsd people can talk and share > ideas but once they leave the room and resort to email it just turns into > flames and disputes. But I could be mis-informed. I'd say that your information is slightly unbalanced. Sure, it's no secret that there have been flamefests in the past. I think most people have grown out of that, though. I also think you underestimate how much work this is, and that's what Jordan's trying to say. > In my mind the architects from the 3 BSD's getting together is the > best way to go. It's just an idea, that I think has the best chance of > working. And im not saying it can be done. The 3 groups may never get > along well enough to come together on anything. And thats fine. Im > perfectly happy with the way things are. I run FreeBSD, I'm very pleased > with the people behind it. As I am sure the NetBSD people are with NetBSD > and OpenBSD people with OpenBSD. It would be nice to get us all together > in a more coherent manor but that just might not be in the cards. Consider the geography. The FreeBSD team is spread around the world, and I assume the same applies to the NetBSD and OpenBSD teams as well. Sure, many of them could get together at USENIX next year, but that's a busy time, and I don't see it leading to much consensus about the topics we're discussing here. Like it or not, Email's the way we communicate. > Greg's idea may be a better idea. It might be better to just > forget about the pipe dream of a mutually represented committee of the 3 > BSD's, and just try and share ideas and code. Setup a forum to discuss > drivers and other code and maybe setup a box that can be used by all. > Maybe that wont work either. Who gets commit privs, etc.. I think you can assume that commit privs will remain jealously guarded in all three projects. But more information flow would help. That can be as simple as having more people join the lists of the other projects and participate in discussions. > I dunno maybe it just cant be done. Unless like someone said > earlier someone of impecable standards that NO ONE would argue with > like kirk stepped in and tried to get things working. But I think we > all know how likely that would be :-) I don't think it's impossible that Kirk would step in. This would mean coming down from his pedestal, however, and I consider it highly likely that people then *would* disagree with him. > This discussion has taken place many times before and maybe it will > just die again and nothing will come of it. But maybe this time > something might give. Who knows. Ill be interested in new ideas that > pop up and how things turn out this time around though. Seeing the > 3 work together would be nice. But im happy if things stay the > same. So either way is a win IMO. I suppose the present is a relatively unique time (like all other times :-) The open source movement is gaining momentum, and the press is interested in the subject. Now's a good time for the *BSDs to show that they're not a group of in-fighters, but people writing reliable software. The press is *not* only interested in Linux, BTW: they'd much rather have something else to talk about that what's been discussed dozens of times already. But who's out there feeding *BSD information to the press? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 16:57:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25398 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:57:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25390 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:57:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA03948; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:58:27 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: "Open Systems Inc." , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 27 Nov 1998 11:17:48 +1030." <19981127111748.B67961@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 16:58:27 -0800 Message-ID: <3944.912128307@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > times already. But who's out there feeding *BSD information to the > press? Not that more can't be done, but I usually do about 2-3 PR calls or email exchanges a week. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 19:42:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06808 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:42:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from doit.pgh.net (doit.pgh.net [206.210.64.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06803 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 19:42:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from darkstar@doit.pgh.net) Received: from localhost (darkstar@localhost) by doit.pgh.net (8.9.0/8.8.7/PGH.NET-02) with SMTP id WAA16226; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:42:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:42:05 -0500 (EST) From: Matthew Orgass To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: *BSD packages... In-Reply-To: <820.912058132@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 25 Nov 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > FreeBSD is already working on a new packaging system using paid > contractors so that it actually happens this time. We hope to have a > technology demonstrator by March of next year; I won't say too much > about it except to say that it's considerably more ambitious than any > of the existing (Linux, *BSD) packaging systems and does a better job, > IMHO, of handling both the front-end and security issues. IMO, this is the aspect that it would most benefit the *BSD community to agree upon. If all three free BSDs (and maybe even BSDI) could adopt the same package system, then that would eliminate a large amount of duplicated effort and would in effect make the systems interchangable. Each BSD can already emulate all of the others, so what difference does it make to most users if the kernels are the same or different? If there is one package repository and perhaps even just one install system, then *BSD will be much more unified then Linux will ever be even if the underlying systems diverge much further then they are already. Since someone is being paid to write the code, this would be a minimum amount of work for all of the volunteers. Of course Net and OpenBSD would have to contribute towards the cost of developing the system, but I have the feeling that this would be much easier for many people then joint development and it would allow us non-developers to contribute as well. Matthew Orgass darkstar@pgh.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 21:26:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11521 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:26:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11501 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:26:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA27500; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:25:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:25:32 -0500 (EST) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Artur Grabowski cc: Greg Lehey , Alicia da Conceicao , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 26 Nov 1998, Artur Grabowski wrote: > ADRIAN Filipi-Martin writes: > > > Sure, the kernel is defintely the hard part. How much divergence > > has there been in userland? I run OpenBSD on a sparc and I see a few > > things here and there. I wonder how feasible it would be to have a > > unified distribution with three possible kernel architectures, yet a > > unified userland? (He quickly ducks for cover.) As long as device files, > > filesystem and directory hierarchies were agreed to, it seems feasible. > > I have a standard reply to things that people always have good ideas about. > > "When are you ready?" > > Speaking about things doesn't improve reality in this case. If you want > something like this done you can: > - do it yourself. > - pay someone to do it. > - Convince someone to do it. > > Generating 1000 mails with good ideas won't write code. Sorry. > > I'm not picking at someone specific. It's a generic rant to all people that > can't stop talking about this. Either accept reality as it is or do something > about it. And filling peoples spools doesn't get anything done. Point taken. However, for such an initiative to succed, there ought to be a little discussion and buy-in from the exising developers. How many others would like to see a unified userland source tree? In about a month I will be in a situation to provide such diffs. I could also probably get a CVS server on a decent connection with disk. As you point out, people need to sign on, not just talk. So, again, who would like to participate on such a project, scanctioned by a *BSD core team, or not? The michanics of the process are fairly straight forward, but they are time intensive. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 21:49:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12790 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:49:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12781 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:49:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA27526; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:49:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:49:30 -0500 (EST) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Artur Grabowski cc: Greg Lehey , Alicia da Conceicao , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > So, again, who would like to participate on such a project, > scanctioned by a *BSD core team, or not? The michanics of the process are > fairly straight forward, but they are time intensive. Just an addendum to my previous message. If you think you would be interested in helping on such a task, send me your address off-line. I'll save them. If there is suficcient interest/manpower to make it more than a one-man show, I'll set up a 3-way CVS mirror at UVa or maybe a local ISP. We can tag an initial starting point and start merging into one of the three trees. If this bears fruit we can then re-merge any recent changes and make it a new baseline for userland. (Yes, there is undoubtedly a lot more to consider, but it's a start.) I think minimally, there would need to be two people from each group. I am best counted as a FreeBSD'er. Are there five others? Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 21:57:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13333 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:57:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13328 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 21:57:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA24885; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:26:49 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id QAA04276; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:26:48 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981127162648.R682@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:26:48 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Adrian Filipi-Martin , Artur Grabowski Cc: Alicia da Conceicao , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from ADRIAN Filipi-Martin on Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 12:49:30AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 27 November 1998 at 0:49:30 -0500, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > >> So, again, who would like to participate on such a project, >> scanctioned by a *BSD core team, or not? The michanics of the process are >> fairly straight forward, but they are time intensive. > > Just an addendum to my previous message. If you think you would > be interested in helping on such a task, send me your address off-line. > I'll save them. > > If there is suficcient interest/manpower to make it more than a > one-man show, I'll set up a 3-way CVS mirror at UVa or maybe a local ISP. > We can tag an initial starting point and start merging into one of the > three trees. If this bears fruit we can then re-merge any recent changes > and make it a new baseline for userland. (Yes, there is undoubtedly a lot > more to consider, but it's a start.) > > I think minimally, there would need to be two people from each > group. I am best counted as a FreeBSD'er. Are there five others? Count me out. I don't think this is a worthwhile effort. Discuss things, maintain more communication, try to keep things pointing in the direction, sure. But your efforts aren't going to give us a unified userland: they're more likely to create a fourth version. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Nov 26 22:35:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA16427 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:35:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from doit.pgh.net (doit.pgh.net [206.210.64.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16422 for ; Thu, 26 Nov 1998 22:35:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from darkstar@doit.pgh.net) Received: from localhost (darkstar@localhost) by doit.pgh.net (8.9.0/8.8.7/PGH.NET-02) with SMTP id BAA21434; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 01:35:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 01:35:01 -0500 (EST) From: Matthew Orgass To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: *BSD packages... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 26 Nov 1998, Matthew Orgass wrote: > IMO, this is the aspect that it would most benefit the *BSD community to > agree upon. If all three free BSDs (and maybe even BSDI) could adopt the > same package system, then that would eliminate a large amount of > duplicated effort and would in effect make the systems interchangable. > Each BSD can already emulate all of the others, so what difference does it > make to most users if the kernels are the same or different? If there is > one package repository and perhaps even just one install system, then *BSD > will be much more unified then Linux will ever be even if the underlying > systems diverge much further then they are already. Sorry to be the first person to reply to my own post, but I think I should clarify a few things: 1) "systems interchangable" -- of course, this wouldn't be all that true to begin with, as each would still have their owndevice drivers, etc. However, most of these make it to all three sooner or later anyway. But the existance of a single package system (including the three systems) would create *BSD. The vast majority of package software will be mostly or entirely common. Even if there are system differences and not all packages are available for all systems immediatly, the fact that they are all in the same place creates the feeling of a single system. The majority of packages that are available on all systems could then be called *BSD versions. The ability to say that software is available for Linux and *BSD and be able to point to *one* *BSD version (even if it contains system depenencies) would be IMO an enormous psychological advantage and would create quite a bit of system interchangability. This would also allow a common distribution (which would be wonderful for developers trying to port software to *BSD). 2) Unity -- Furthermore, this would be a framework for futher merging of the base systems. Common sections of userland could be put in common packages, as could any development of common defice drivers or such as they appear. Common code them benefits from three developer communities while each system is free to concentrate on it's particular focus. The existance of a good method of unifying parts of the system is probably enough to generate work on doing so, as there appear to be a number of people in favor of at least some movement in this direction. Unified packges would allow as much similarity or difference as is desired by the individual systems while creating the feel of a single *BSD. Matthew Orgass darkstar@pgh.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 00:20:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24594 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:20:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24587 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:20:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA27832; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:20:41 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:20:41 -0500 (EST) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Greg Lehey cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <19981127162648.R682@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 27 November 1998 at 0:49:30 -0500, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > > On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > > > >> So, again, who would like to participate on such a project, > >> scanctioned by a *BSD core team, or not? The michanics of the process are > >> fairly straight forward, but they are time intensive. > > > > Just an addendum to my previous message. If you think you would > > be interested in helping on such a task, send me your address off-line. > > I'll save them. > > > > If there is suficcient interest/manpower to make it more than a > > one-man show, I'll set up a 3-way CVS mirror at UVa or maybe a local ISP. > > We can tag an initial starting point and start merging into one of the > > three trees. If this bears fruit we can then re-merge any recent changes > > and make it a new baseline for userland. (Yes, there is undoubtedly a lot > > more to consider, but it's a start.) > > > > I think minimally, there would need to be two people from each > > group. I am best counted as a FreeBSD'er. Are there five others? > > Count me out. I don't think this is a worthwhile effort. Discuss > things, maintain more communication, try to keep things pointing in > the direction, sure. But your efforts aren't going to give us a > unified userland: they're more likely to create a fourth version. Well, that would be hard to do without a kernel. ;-) Avoiding a new *BSD is one big reason why I want to constrain such an effort to non-kernel code. What do you think would increase the liklihood for such an effort to succeed? It's not that I think such work should be done in secrecy without any comminication with the developers at large. I personally would want to work in a faily autonomous manner so as to not be directly branched off of a particular CVS projects repository. But that could just be me. The basic reason I'm pursuing the notion of userland unification is that I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the egos are smaller and less likely to be a problem outside of the kernel. It would also leave the respective camps free to have their own add-ons. This would be one way to reduce the effort spend tracking what the other groups are doing for the entire distribution. I could see things where 90% of userland, and 90% of the ports (not packages) could be lumped together on a single CD, that could be included in each OS's distribution. The particular flavor would provide it's kernel sources, system binaries and other bits that are truly kernel specific. Anyway, it's just an idea. It's one I feel I could get behind. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 00:39:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA25970 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:39:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA25957 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:39:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA25377; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:08:57 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id TAA00488; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:08:55 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981127190855.A468@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:08:55 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux References: <19981127162648.R682@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from ADRIAN Filipi-Martin on Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 03:20:41AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 27 November 1998 at 3:20:41 -0500, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Friday, 27 November 1998 at 0:49:30 -0500, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: >>> On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: >>> >>>> So, again, who would like to participate on such a project, >>>> scanctioned by a *BSD core team, or not? The michanics of the process are >>>> fairly straight forward, but they are time intensive. >>> >>> Just an addendum to my previous message. If you think you would >>> be interested in helping on such a task, send me your address off-line. >>> I'll save them. >>> >>> If there is suficcient interest/manpower to make it more than a >>> one-man show, I'll set up a 3-way CVS mirror at UVa or maybe a local ISP. >>> We can tag an initial starting point and start merging into one of the >>> three trees. If this bears fruit we can then re-merge any recent changes >>> and make it a new baseline for userland. (Yes, there is undoubtedly a lot >>> more to consider, but it's a start.) >>> >>> I think minimally, there would need to be two people from each >>> group. I am best counted as a FreeBSD'er. Are there five others? >> >> Count me out. I don't think this is a worthwhile effort. Discuss >> things, maintain more communication, try to keep things pointing in >> the direction, sure. But your efforts aren't going to give us a >> unified userland: they're more likely to create a fourth version. > > Well, that would be hard to do without a kernel. ;-) > > Avoiding a new *BSD is one big reason why I want to constrain such > an effort to non-kernel code. But of course, if you do it and nobody wants it, you might be tempted to put in a kernel as well. After all, by definition any kernel will do :-) > What do you think would increase the liklihood for such an effort > to succeed? > > It's not that I think such work should be done in secrecy without > any comminication with the developers at large. I personally would want > to work in a faily autonomous manner so as to not be directly branched off > of a particular CVS projects repository. But that could just be me. > > The basic reason I'm pursuing the notion of userland unification > is that I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the egos are smaller and less > likely to be a problem outside of the kernel. It would also leave the > respective camps free to have their own add-ons. This would be one way to > reduce the effort spend tracking what the other groups are doing for the > entire distribution. You've forgotten something that went by a day or so ago: the source trees are structured differently, and the licenses aren't quite the same. In these areas you'll run into an amount of stubbornness^W reluctance to change which might surprise you. > I could see things where 90% of userland, and 90% of the ports > (not packages) could be lumped together on a single CD, that could be > included in each OS's distribution. The particular flavor would provide > it's kernel sources, system binaries and other bits that are truly kernel > specific. Well, since you mention the ports, there's an idea. I know that FreeBSD and NetBSD have a certain amount of object code compatibility; I expect that applies to OpenBSD as well. A thing that *really* would be worth doing would be smoothing the differences, which would probably require some modifications on all three systems. The result, though, would be that the ports (which Walnut Creek already ships precompiled) would work on any of the three platforms. And if you prefer the NetBSD dump(8) over the FreeBSD version, there'd be nothing to stop you. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 00:59:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA27861 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:59:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.scancall.no (www.scancall.no [195.139.183.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA27855 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 00:59:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Marius.Bendiksen@scancall.no) Received: from super2.langesund.scancall.no [195.139.183.29] by www with smtp id KHUXTSJJ; Fri, 27 Nov 98 08:59:17 GMT (PowerWeb version 4.04r6) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981127095903.009356d0@mail.scancall.no> X-Sender: Marius@mail.scancall.no X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:59:03 +0100 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Open Systems Inc." From: Marius Bendiksen Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux Cc: Artur Grabowski , Adrian Filipi-Martin , Greg Lehey , Alicia da Conceicao , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org In-Reply-To: <3605.912124752@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG >> ["I have an idea, let's form a committee!"] elided. >Sounds like work. Indeed it does. However, considering how this kind of a committee would not, imho, be best composed of John BSDoe, it sounds like work for the various core teams. =) --- Marius Bendiksen, IT-Trainee, ScanCall AS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 01:04:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA28649 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 01:04:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.scancall.no (www.scancall.no [195.139.183.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA28643 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 01:04:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Marius.Bendiksen@scancall.no) Received: from super2.langesund.scancall.no [195.139.183.29] by www with smtp id KHUZWJJJ; Fri, 27 Nov 98 09:04:18 GMT (PowerWeb version 4.04r6) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981127100405.00946c60@mail.scancall.no> X-Sender: Marius@mail.scancall.no X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 10:04:05 +0100 To: Adrian Filipi-Martin , Artur Grabowski From: Marius Bendiksen Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux Cc: Greg Lehey , Alicia da Conceicao , netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD advocacy list , advocacy@openbsd.org In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > So, again, who would like to participate on such a project, >scanctioned by a *BSD core team, or not? The michanics of the process are >fairly straight forward, but they are time intensive. If sanctioned by the (in my case) FreeBSD core team, and not directly opposed by the others, sign me up. I don't have the experience yet, but this is a good thing, IMO. --- Marius Bendiksen, IT-Trainee, ScanCall AS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 03:55:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12015 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:55:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newsguy.com (smtp.newsguy.com [207.211.168.71]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA12006 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:55:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcsobral@newsguy.com) Received: (from dcsobral@localhost) by newsguy.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id DAA18875 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:55:02 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 03:55:02 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199811271155.DAA18875@newsguy.com> X-Mailer: Direct Read Email by Newsguy News Service To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "Daniel C. Sobral" Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where wasFreeBSD? Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At Wed, 25 Nov 1998 22:13:15 -0800, jhk wrote > > :-) I was even going back to the headers to check if I had not confused the author when I saw this. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral dcs@newsguy.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 06:33:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA25239 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:33:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lion.plab.ku.dk (lion.plab.ku.dk [130.225.105.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA25234 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 06:33:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tobez@lion.plab.ku.dk) Received: from localhost (2431 bytes) by lion.plab.ku.dk via sendmail with P:stdio/R:bind_hosts/T:inet_zone_bind_smtp (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:32:33 +0100 (CET) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #1 built 1998-Nov-8) To: aturoff@isinet.com Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Brett Glass , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? References: <48004.911945650@zippy.cdrom.com> <98Nov24.180838est.113829@pandora.isinet.com> From: Anton Berezin Date: 27 Nov 1998 15:32:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: Adam Turoff's message of Tue, 24 Nov 1998 18:19:14 -0500 Message-ID: <8667c1jjem.fsf@lion.plab.ku.dk> Lines: 52 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Adam Turoff writes: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > As is my usual gripe in advocacy, what we really need around here > > aren't a bunch of firemen who arrive at the scene of the fire well > > after it has already consumed the building and stand around saying > > meaningful things like "This was a fire! It appears to have burned > > down the building! Fires are bad, someone should do something." > > > > Such firemen are obviously of no use at all and should probably go > > into less challenging professions like chicken inspection or lavatory > > maintenance. What we need are firemen who actually arrive in time to > > have a meaningful affect on fires *as they are happening* or can turn > > practical expertise towards preventing fires in the first place. :-) > > Exactly. If we all whine about how nobody uses FreeBSD while we're > on our own small patch of sand, FreeBSD won't amount to a hill of beans. > We need to advocate among other communities (such as Gnome/KDE, perl, > python, apache, tech/business journalists, etc.). Which reminds me: http://www.perl.org/cgi-bin/survey The current standings are: Respondents so far: 4855 Top 10 most used platforms Linux 3096 Solaris 2329 Win 95, 98, NT 2124 MacOS 1253 SunOS 1240 HP-UX 752 Free-, Net-, OpenBSD 650 IRIX 606 AIX 528 DEC Unix, OSF/1 440 I can't believe there are so little people out there using perl on *BSD. Of course, this mostly advocates perl, but I've seen in various perl newsgroups and/or mailing lists certain OS discussions based on those numbers... -- Anton Berezin The Protein Laboratory, University of Copenhagen To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 09:49:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11511 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:49:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA11504 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 09:49:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 1183 invoked by uid 1003); 27 Nov 1998 17:49:17 -0000 Message-ID: <19981127194917.A25265@rucus.ru.ac.za> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:49:17 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Getting articles published (Was merging thread) References: <19981127111748.B67961@freebie.lemis.com> <3944.912128307@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <3944.912128307@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Nov 26, 1998 at 04:58:27PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu 1998-11-26 (16:58), Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > times already. But who's out there feeding *BSD information to the > > press? > > Not that more can't be done, but I usually do about 2-3 PR calls or > email exchanges a week. Could it be possible for someone to give a few tips on writing articles that are going to be taken seriously by whatever media you're likely to submit it to? I've been somewhat inspired to write a few articles, in response to a recent spate of somewhat clue^Wfact-less articles with regards Unix, operating systems comparisons, and similar articles, which go from anything from "Unix is an environment only survivable by programmers" (I think that was the subheading), to a rehash of unix-vs-nt.org. However, besides my experience running and maintaining a student server with an active userbase of approximately 450, I don't think I have much credentials, especially since I'm only 20, and have only been using computers for about 4 years, am not the type of person who wins prizes for top-of-class or competitions, etc. For someone who isn't "Public Relations and Corporate Liasons" (and much more), how does one get people to take you seriously? Anyway, hope this sparks something useful, Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 13:18:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA25315 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:18:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA25307 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:18:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA06467; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:20:08 -0800 (PST) To: Neil Blakey-Milner cc: FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Getting articles published (Was merging thread) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:49:17 +0200." <19981127194917.A25265@rucus.ru.ac.za> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:20:08 -0800 Message-ID: <6463.912201608@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Could it be possible for someone to give a few tips on writing articles that > are going to be taken seriously by whatever media you're likely to submit it > to? Write a good outline. That's the most important hook for any editor. After that, you can evolve the story with his/her help. > However, besides my experience running and maintaining a student server with > an active userbase of approximately 450, I don't think I have much > credentials, especially since I'm only 20, and have only been using computers Actually, articles citing practical experience are much valued by magazines since they can speak with more authority to the readership on whatever sysadmin topic is being discussed. My advice is to go for it and if you don't succeed the first time or two, don't get discouraged and keep trying. This is the kind of task which practice and experience can only improve. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 13:52:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28017 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:52:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28010 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23561; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:52:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd023543; Fri Nov 27 14:52:40 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19036; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:52:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811272152.OAA19036@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:52:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <48004.911945650@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 24, 98 02:14:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > As is my usual gripe in advocacy, what we really need around here > aren't a bunch of firemen who arrive at the scene of the fire well > after it has already consumed the building and stand around saying > meaningful things like "This was a fire! It appears to have burned > down the building! Fires are bad, someone should do something." > > Such firemen are obviously of no use at all and should probably go > into less challenging professions like chicken inspection or lavatory > maintenance. What we need are firemen who actually arrive in time to > have a meaningful affect on fires *as they are happening* or can turn > practical expertise towards preventing fires in the first place. :-) Actually, the fire will be burning an awful long time; so long as Linux is in Mexican schools, there is a need for a FreeBSD fire brigade on the school grounds, hoses at ready. For a FreeBSD fireman to be effective, there is an aching need for firefighting equipment; FreeBSD has little. One thing that would go a long way towards this is to get a most recent RedHat Linux system installed, and figure out what software you need to write to "upgrade" it to FreeBSD without reinstalling everything. Here are some starting points: o FreeBSD is still third-party layered software unfriendly (some would call it antagonistic). There is no real method in FreeBSD for installing software that is supposed to start at system startup and shutdown gracefully at system shutdown. Fix: Change the FreeBSD "init" process. This is political suicide, but technological necessity. o FreeBSD EXT2FS support is less robust than it should be. Fix: Create a stress-test framework in which progress toward repairing EXT2FS can be made, and repair it. o FreeBSD kernels can not be booted with Linux boot code. Fix: Add support for booting Linux kernels to the FreeBSD multistage boot code, such that the Linux boot blocks can be replaced with FreeBSD boot blocks without losing Linux functionality. This means adding features to the FreeBSD boot blocks. Alternately, and more restrictive to future work, make FreeBSD capable of being booted using Linux boot blocks. o FreeBSD Linux emulation leaves something to be desired (something called "Linux emulation"). This is most apparent in the FreeBSD inability to run some kernel threaded applications, like Oracle 8 for Linux. Fix: Get a copy of Oracle 8 for Linux, install it on FreeBSD (in violation of the license) and Make It Work(tm). o FreeBSD can not install RPM packages. Fix: Port the RPM code, either from RedHat (I don't think this is actually available) or from one of the Linux camps that have reverse engineered the code (S.U.S.E. would be a good starting point, since they work heavily on RedHat Linux emulation themselves). o FreeBSD doesn't support the Linux libvga. Fix: Someone port the frigging thing, already. Oh, by the way, one could substitute "Solaris" for "Linux" in the above (and SVR4 UFS and BFS for EXT2FS, and SVR4 PKG for RPM...) and have a hell of a lot larger software base than the Linux software base. It's not a matter of figuring out what to do; that's easy. It's a matter of will, and it's a matter of prying things like the BSD init process out of the cold, dead hands of the powers that be. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 13:58:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA28348 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:58:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA28343 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:58:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA06736; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:59:25 -0800 (PST) To: Terry Lambert cc: brett@lariat.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 27 Nov 1998 21:52:38 GMT." <199811272152.OAA19036@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 13:59:24 -0800 Message-ID: <6732.912203964@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > It's not a matter of figuring out what to do; that's easy. It's We agree on that. Most of the ideas on your list have been raised at least once or twice before, only underscoring the point. In fact, I think all of them have been. > a matter of will, and it's a matter of prying things like the > BSD init process out of the cold, dead hands of the powers that be. init is the smallest bang-for-buck item on your list, actually, and could be put well behind tasks like improving the Linux emulation up to Oracle8 standards or writing that Linux Upgrade Kit people have been joking about for 2-3 years now. Yep, if one is interested in doing rather than talking, there are plenty of contravsersy-free and eminently worthy tasks to turn one's attention to. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 14:16:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29720 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:16:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29715 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:16:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19436; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:16:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd019421; Fri Nov 27 15:16:33 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20284; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:16:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811272216.PAA20284@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where wasFreeBSD? To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:16:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, wes@softweyr.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <1045.912060795@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Nov 25, 98 10:13:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Tell you what, Jordan: If you're ever hit by a car, remind me to blame > > you for leaving the house. > > > > Assuming that I was hit by the car while crossing the street outside a > cross-walk and without looking first, this is a good analogy if you > don't quibble about the fact that the blame would more correctly fall > upon my failure to look where I was going than on the act of simply > leaving my house. It also supports my point, however, so I guess I'd > also have to thank you for the fine analogy and congradulate you on > finally getting the idea after having so many people attempt (and > fail) to inject it directly into your head with the aid of particle > accellerators and such. > > If you're using getting hit by a car as symbology for "a random act of > god", on the other hand, then it's unfortunately a rather poor analogy > on account of the fact that it a) shows a fundamental lack of > understanding about what precipitates the great majority of auto > accidents (driver error) and b) incorrectly equates the perils of > system administration with that of random meteor impacts and other > events completely outside one's control. A good system administrator > has a great deal more control over their environment than that and can > take a wide variety of preventive measures not available to the > Extinction Event Scenario folks in order to prevent situations exactly > like yours from occurring at all. > > Oh yeah, and transitive closure over a virtualized interface boundry. > I almost forgot that bit. > > I rarely engage in Ad Hominim attacks, like the one above. My only comment on the discussion so far is that if Jordan *is* hit by a car, before I blame Jordan, I would want a plaster cast of the license plate run through the DMV to see whose car it was. PS: I'm pretty sure that HMTL tags aren't allowed to contain hypens, and even if they can, I didn't find that one in the 3.2 spec or 4.0 draft. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 14:36:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02060 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:36:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01438 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 14:34:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22982; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:33:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd022977; Fri Nov 27 15:33:52 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20989; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:32:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811272232.PAA20989@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux To: louis@signalpath.on.ca Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:32:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: advocacy@openbsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Louis Bertrand" at Nov 26, 98 02:11:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > In my experience in the hardware domain, standards favour widespread > adoption but stifle innovation. You mean like FTP, SMTP, HTTP, HTMP, and MIME "stifle innovation"? Or do you mean like ELF, DWARF, NROFF, and SGML "stifle innovation"? Or perhaps ANSI, POSIX, and XPG/4? I'd agree if you wanted to say "Bad standards, like ISA, stifle innovation", though... I think that software standards tend to codify interfaces, and that hardware standards tend to codify implementations. Very different spaces. Not that I would mind rewriting all of libc to get rid off all static or per thread allocated buffers, and to make all functions return only status codes, forcing data returns to be implemented by passing a return area by reference, mind you. I would *love* to see: int ftell( FILE *stream, off_t*result) typedef u_int64_t off_t; (one example whre return values are overloaded to return error information, to the detriment of the long term utility of the interfaces). I would also *love* to see a method whereby the argument sizes are passed as part of the information so that system call interfaces can be easily and safely versioned without proliferating entry points. But of course, that would constitute a "calling _standard_". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 15:07:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05077 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:07:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duhnet.net (like.duh.org [207.30.95.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05021 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:06:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tv@pobox.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by duhnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1/Duh-2.1.0) with ESMTP id SAA22114Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:04:06 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: duhnet.net: tv owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:04:06 -0500 (EST) From: Todd Vierling X-Sender: tv@duhnet.net To: Terry Lambert cc: louis@signalpath.on.ca, advocacy@openbsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <199811272232.PAA20989@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: : > In my experience in the hardware domain, standards favour widespread : > adoption but stifle innovation. : : You mean like FTP, SMTP, HTTP, HTMP, and MIME "stifle innovation"? : : Or do you mean like ELF, DWARF, NROFF, and SGML "stifle innovation"? ``Standards are such wonderful things -- there are so many of them to choose from!'' -- -- Todd Vierling (Personal tv@pobox.com; Bus. todd_vierling@xn.xerox.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 15:16:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06014 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:16:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05820 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:13:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01839; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:13:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd001817; Fri Nov 27 16:12:58 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA23213; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 16:11:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199811272311.QAA23213@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux To: tv@pobox.com (Todd Vierling) Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:11:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, louis@signalpath.on.ca, advocacy@openbsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Todd Vierling" at Nov 27, 98 06:04:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > : > In my experience in the hardware domain, standards favour widespread > : > adoption but stifle innovation. > : > : You mean like FTP, SMTP, HTTP, HTMP, and MIME "stifle innovation"? > : > : Or do you mean like ELF, DWARF, NROFF, and SGML "stifle innovation"? > > ``Standards are such wonderful things -- there are so many of them to > choose from!'' Rather than unattributed quotes of Andrew Tannenbaum, could you be specific about why you feel that convergence on these particular standards is a bad thing, and cite alternative standards for each, with the restriction that there has to be a public reference implementation available for it to qualify as a standard? Thanks. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 15:21:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06713 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:21:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from duhnet.net (like.duh.org [207.30.95.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06382 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 15:20:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tv@pobox.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [[UNIX: localhost]]) by duhnet.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1/Duh-2.1.0) with ESMTP id SAA22638Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:18:33 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: duhnet.net: tv owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 18:18:32 -0500 (EST) From: Todd Vierling X-Sender: tv@duhnet.net To: Terry Lambert cc: louis@signalpath.on.ca, advocacy@openbsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <199811272311.QAA23213@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: : > ``Standards are such wonderful things -- there are so many of them to : > choose from!'' : : Rather than unattributed quotes of Andrew Tannenbaum, could you be : specific about why you feel that convergence on these particular : standards is a bad thing, I expressed no such personal opinion. All I did was quote. -- -- Todd Vierling (Personal tv@pobox.com; Bus. todd_vierling@xn.xerox.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 17:48:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20379 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:48:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20372 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 17:48:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA00347; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:18:19 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA06203; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:18:19 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981128121818.B6182@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:18:18 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Anton Berezin , FreeBSD advocacy list Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? References: <48004.911945650@zippy.cdrom.com> <98Nov24.180838est.113829@pandora.isinet.com> <8667c1jjem.fsf@lion.plab.ku.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <8667c1jjem.fsf@lion.plab.ku.dk>; from Anton Berezin on Fri, Nov 27, 1998 at 03:32:33PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Friday, 27 November 1998 at 15:32:33 +0100, Anton Berezin wrote: > Which reminds me: > > http://www.perl.org/cgi-bin/survey > > The current standings are: > > Respondents so far: 4855 > > Top 10 most used platforms > > Linux 3096 > Solaris 2329 > Win 95, 98, NT 2124 > MacOS 1253 > SunOS 1240 > HP-UX 752 > Free-, Net-, OpenBSD 650 > IRIX 606 > AIX 528 > DEC Unix, OSF/1 440 > > I can't believe there are so little people out there using perl on > *BSD. Well, first these surveys can be *very* skewed. Which was the one I saw which put Nintendo 64 in first place? Secondly, though, a survey which puts *BSD at more than 20% of Linux is probably not underrating *BSD. -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 19:30:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27400 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:30:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sdcc10.ucsd.edu (sdcc10.ucsd.edu [132.239.50.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA27395 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:30:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crouilla@ucsd.edu) Received: from localhost (crouilla@localhost) by sdcc10.ucsd.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id TAA06298; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:29:52 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sdcc10.ucsd.edu: crouilla owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 19:29:52 -0800 (PST) From: Chuck Rouillard Reply-To: chuck@ucsd.edu To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: In support of advocacy... In-Reply-To: <6732.912203964@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [chop] > Yep, if one is interested in doing rather than talking, there are > plenty of controversy-free and eminently worthy tasks to turn one's > attention to. In the couple of months I've been on advocacy, the dreamers, poets, and armchair quarterbacks seem to have lots to say about FBSD. Apparently, 'advocacy' is a cornucopia for issues and well-intended solutions(sans any strategy for implementation). Of course, as much as I anticipate any number of tips, ideas, or occasional successes in support of FBSD, I see very little except from, say, Greg(Lehey). Let's see some real *SUPPORT* for FBSD! Hell, I work for a company with it's own UNIX. Staff developers have free access to it and I still managed to get 3 people in my group to go out and buy 2.2.7 and build cable-modem gateways in their homes. If you want to advocate FBSD, play the role and market the product you presumably enjoy using and *share the success!!!* And for those still intent on finding issues with FBSD, see Jordan's message above. -c --------------------------------------- Chuck Rouillard | ucsd : chuck@ucsd.edu | ncr : charr@sparc.sandiegoca.ncr.com | --------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 20:06:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00503 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:06:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00498 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 20:06:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA00797; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 14:36:08 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA07066; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 14:36:04 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981128143603.L6182@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 14:36:03 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD advocacy list , NetBSD-advocacy@NetBSD.org, OpenBSD-advocacy@OpenBSD.org Subject: What are the strengths of FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As I mentioned in a mail message yesterday, I'm writing an article for SunWorld about the return of the BSDs, and I have a couple of things I want to say which I'd like all *BSD groups to find positive. In particular, I'd like to be able to give sensible answers to the following implied questions: 1. What is the difference between FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD? Once upon a time it was relatively easy to answer this question: FreeBSD aimed at ease of use on the Intel platform, NetBSD aimed at portability, and OpenBSD wasn't. Now it's more difficult: FreeBSD has moved to other platforms, and while I don't know if NetBSD is any easier to install, there's at least OpenBSD to address as well. The best I have come to in recent times has been ``FreeBSD aims for ease of use and maximum performance, NetBSD aims for portability, and OpenBSD addresses security''. I'm not very happy with this statement, which bases mainly on hearsay, and which may not even be a good basis for discussion. I'd welcome any input. 2. What aspects of *BSD would interest a SunWorld reader? At first I thought ``well, they're not going to be interested in FreeBSD, because FreeBSD doesn't run on Sparc'', but it seems to me that it's unlikely that many Sun users would install current versions of *BSD on their modern hardware. Sure, there are plenty of older Sun machines out there, on which it's either impossible or impractical to run Solaris 2, and for them NetBSD or OpenBSD would be a good alternative to SunOS 4. But what are the majority of the users going to want to know about *BSD? Sure, it has the comfortable feel of SunOS 4, but what hardware would they run it on? What would they do with it? I've thought of things like name servers and Internet gateways, but there must be more than that. Obviously there is some interest, because SunWorld has been carrying lots of articles about Linux, and the same considerations should apply to Linux (in addition to the fact that Linux doesn't have this old, familiar feel about it). Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 22:22:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09059 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:22:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09054 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:22:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13531; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:23:37 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <365F96D4.FD8D22FB@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:23:16 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? References: <199811272152.OAA19036@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > Fix: Get a copy of Oracle 8 for Linux, install it on > FreeBSD (in violation of the license) and Make It Work(tm). Or, better yet, get a "handle" inside product management at Oracle and convince them to release the FreeBSD version of Oracle 8. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Nov 27 22:28:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09326 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:28:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09321 for ; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 22:28:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13552; Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:29:19 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <365F982A.D878EE79@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 27 Nov 1998 23:28:58 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux References: <199811272232.PAA20989@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > I'd agree if you wanted to say "Bad standards, like ISA, stifle > innovation", though... > > Not that I would mind rewriting all of libc to get rid off all static > or per thread allocated buffers, and to make all functions return only > status codes, forcing data returns to be implemented by passing a > return area by reference, mind you. I would *love* to see: > > int > ftell( FILE *stream, off_t*result) > > typedef u_int64_t off_t; > > (one example whre return values are overloaded to return error > information, to the detriment of the long term utility of the > interfaces). I, on the other hand, would prefer to see: File::Offset File::tell() // throws Error::Range, Error::... and place the reporting of "exceptional conditions" into a separate error communications channel. Let us not perpetuate yet another bad standard. YMMV. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 28 01:57:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA25757 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:57:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA25752 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 01:57:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from chronias.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.58.149]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA5DF4; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:56:59 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19981128143603.L6182@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 11:02:00 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Greg Lehey Subject: RE: What are the strengths of FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD? Cc: OpenBSD-advocacy@OpenBSD.org, NetBSD-advocacy@NetBSD.org, FreeBSD advocacy list Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 28-Nov-98 Greg Lehey wrote: > 1. What is the difference between FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD? > > Once upon a time it was relatively easy to answer this question: > FreeBSD aimed at ease of use on the Intel platform, NetBSD aimed > at portability, and OpenBSD wasn't. Now it's more difficult: > FreeBSD has moved to other platforms, and while I don't know if > NetBSD is any easier to install, there's at least OpenBSD to > address as well. The best I have come to in recent times has been > ``FreeBSD aims for ease of use and maximum performance, NetBSD > aims for portability, and OpenBSD addresses security''. > > I'm not very happy with this statement, which bases mainly on > hearsay, and which may not even be a good basis for discussion. > I'd welcome any input. Since OpenBSD is exported from Canada its initially exported with strong cryptography additions. Also if one takes a look at the Changes lists of the various versions a lot of security fixes are easily spotted. Theo and cohorts focus a lot on the overal security of the source. NetBSD, unfortunately not very familiar with it yet, has the widest range of supported platforms and is the spreader of the BSD word on different platforms ;) But I guess the folks of the appropriate advocacy lists care to indulge us some more... > 2. What aspects of *BSD would interest a SunWorld reader? At first I > thought ``well, they're not going to be interested in FreeBSD, > because FreeBSD doesn't run on Sparc'', but it seems to me that > it's unlikely that many Sun users would install current versions > of *BSD on their modern hardware. Sure, there are plenty of older > Sun machines out there, on which it's either impossible or > impractical to run Solaris 2, and for them NetBSD or OpenBSD would > be a good alternative to SunOS 4. But what are the majority of > the users going to want to know about *BSD? Sure, it has the > comfortable feel of SunOS 4, but what hardware would they run it > on? What would they do with it? I've thought of things like name > servers and Internet gateways, but there must be more than that. Don't forget Solaris has also been ported to x86 architecture, so in effect I guess x86 might be appropriate to mention for FreeBSD. Then again, one could also mention all the Sparc versions we already have or going to have. General firewalls for all sorts of gateways, cheap routers, mail system, and god knows what else. Hope I attributed a little to clarify the `chaos'. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl | Cum angelis et pueris, Junior Network/Security Specialist | fideles inveniamur *BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 28 08:02:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21905 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:02:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.GTS.NET (whambam.gts.net [204.138.66.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21899 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 08:02:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tronix!signalpath.on.ca!louis@GTS.NET) Received: from tronix by mail.GTS.NET (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1; 1998-Nov-20) (3341 bytes) via rmail with /P:uucp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp id (sender ) for FreeBSD.ORG!FreeBSD-advocacy; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 11:01:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from tronix.signalpath.on.ca([192.168.250.1]) (3059 bytes) by tronix via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:smart_host/T:uux (sender: ) id for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:42:13 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #1 built 1998-Jul-27) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:42:13 -0500 (EST) From: Louis Bertrand Reply-To: Louis Bertrand To: Terry Lambert cc: advocacy@openbsd.org, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <199811272232.PAA20989@usr02.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry nailed it down exactly: it's a tradeoff between innovation and adoption. All those standards made it possible to build the internet as we know it, but new ideas will have to co-exist with old implementations. Your libc example is one case where you see an obvious improvement, but then you'd have to rewrite the kernel, the utilities and patch anything you put in the ports tree. Your wealth has become baggage you must carry forward. I agree with Terry about the damage a bad standard can do, and a discussion of hardware vs. software standards-making is outside this topic. Ciao! --Louis Louis Bertrand, Bowmanville, ON, Canada vox +1.905.623.8925 fax +1.905.623.3852 OpenBSD: Security matters On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > In my experience in the hardware domain, standards favour widespread > > adoption but stifle innovation. > > You mean like FTP, SMTP, HTTP, HTMP, and MIME "stifle innovation"? > > Or do you mean like ELF, DWARF, NROFF, and SGML "stifle innovation"? > > Or perhaps ANSI, POSIX, and XPG/4? > > I'd agree if you wanted to say "Bad standards, like ISA, stifle > innovation", though... > > I think that software standards tend to codify interfaces, and that > hardware standards tend to codify implementations. > > Very different spaces. > > Not that I would mind rewriting all of libc to get rid off all static > or per thread allocated buffers, and to make all functions return only > status codes, forcing data returns to be implemented by passing a > return area by reference, mind you. I would *love* to see: > > int > ftell( FILE *stream, off_t*result) > > typedef u_int64_t off_t; > > (one example whre return values are overloaded to return error > information, to the detriment of the long term utility of the > interfaces). > > I would also *love* to see a method whereby the argument sizes are > passed as part of the information so that system call interfaces > can be easily and safely versioned without proliferating entry > points. > > But of course, that would constitute a "calling _standard_". > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 28 10:10:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02213 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:10:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02208 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 10:10:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA03998; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:10:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 13:10:09 -0500 (EST) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: chuck@ucsd.edu cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: In support of advocacy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Chuck Rouillard wrote: > > [chop] > > Yep, if one is interested in doing rather than talking, there are > > plenty of controversy-free and eminently worthy tasks to turn one's > > attention to. > > In the couple of months I've been on advocacy, the dreamers, poets, > and armchair quarterbacks seem to have lots to say about FBSD. > Apparently, 'advocacy' is a cornucopia for issues and well-intended > solutions(sans any strategy for implementation). > > Of course, as much as I anticipate any number of tips, ideas, or > occasional successes in support of FBSD, I see very little except > from, say, Greg(Lehey). > > Let's see some real *SUPPORT* for FBSD! Hell, I work for a company > with it's own UNIX. Staff developers have free access to it and I > still managed to get 3 people in my group to go out and buy 2.2.7 > and build cable-modem gateways in their homes. Hey, just because we don't brag about each convert or satisfied customer that now has a FreeBSD box, doesn't mean we aren't out there promoting FreeBSD. I've got a number of significant local area wins over the last four to five years. I'm not saying that more couldn't be done. Just that what is being done is somewhat underrpresented/understated.... sounds like *BSD advocacy in general... I guess we could develop some ascii art tokens to represent how many kill each of us has and tack them onto our sigs like fighter pilots and their planes. ;-) cheers, Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 28 12:00:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08995 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:00:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sdcc10.ucsd.edu (sdcc10.ucsd.edu [132.239.50.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08990 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:00:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crouilla@ucsd.edu) Received: from localhost (crouilla@localhost) by sdcc10.ucsd.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA24478; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:00:35 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: sdcc10.ucsd.edu: crouilla owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:00:35 -0800 (PST) From: Chuck Rouillard Reply-To: chuck@ucsd.edu To: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: In support of advocacy... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 28 Nov 1998, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Chuck Rouillard wrote: > > > > > [chop] > > > Yep, if one is interested in doing rather than talking, there are > > > plenty of controversy-free and eminently worthy tasks to turn one's > > > attention to. > > > > In the couple of months I've been on advocacy, the dreamers, poets, > > and armchair quarterbacks seem to have lots to say about FBSD. > > Apparently, 'advocacy' is a cornucopia for issues and well-intended > > solutions(sans any strategy for implementation). > > > > Of course, as much as I anticipate any number of tips, ideas, or > > occasional successes in support of FBSD, I see very little except > > from, say, Greg(Lehey). > > > > Let's see some real *SUPPORT* for FBSD! Hell, I work for a company > > with it's own UNIX. Staff developers have free access to it and I > > still managed to get 3 people in my group to go out and buy 2.2.7 > > and build cable-modem gateways in their homes. > > Hey, just because we don't brag about each convert or satisfied > customer that now has a FreeBSD box, doesn't mean we aren't out there > promoting FreeBSD. I've got a number of significant local area wins over > the last four to five years. > > I'm not saying that more couldn't be done. Just that what is > being done is somewhat underrpresented/understated.... sounds like *BSD > advocacy in general... > > I guess we could develop some ascii art tokens to represent how > many kill each of us has and tack them onto our sigs like fighter pilots > and their planes. ;-) You're right. My 'example' suggests I'm looking for brag sheets. I'm not. Instead, and in the spirit of advocacy, I was hoping to such things as: o "X company is planning on a new UNIX network. What are some of better selling points of FreeBSD against, say, SCO, Sol?" o "We don't have a SIG in our (community|town|city|state|country), has anyone started one and how did you go about it?" o "We have a local computer rag and I was consider doing a promo. Anyone here had experience with this?" o "I am considering writing SCSI support for the SYMBIOS chip set and was wondering if anyone else had similar interests or had heard of others involved with this?" o "My (college|university|alma mater) offers software to students at substantial discount. I'd like to get then to offer FBSD as well. Anyone done this before? Whom do I tell them to call?" Don't bother addressing any of the bulletized questions; they're contrived and we all know it. The point is to establish a productive dialog that promotes the use and widespread appeal of FBSD. I believe one of the keys to being a good advocate for something is understanding it's stengths and weaknesses within and amongst its peers(if any). Notice the few responses Greg(Lehey) is getting in his recent appeals. BTW: Laugh all you want, but I like Adrian's "ascii art tokens". :-> -c --------------------------------------- Chuck Rouillard | ucsd : chuck@ucsd.edu | ncr : charr@sparc.sandiegoca.ncr.com | --------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 28 12:04:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09359 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:04:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09351 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 12:04:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4008.ime.net [209.90.195.18]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id PAA15272; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:04:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19981128150200.00a834b0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 15:03:50 -0500 To: chuck@ucsd.edu, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: In support of advocacy... Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:00 PM 11/28/98 -0800, Chuck Rouillard wrote: > > >On Sat, 28 Nov 1998, ADRIAN Filipi-Martin wrote: > >> On Fri, 27 Nov 1998, Chuck Rouillard wrote: >> >> > >> > [chop] >> > > Yep, if one is interested in doing rather than talking, there are >> > > plenty of controversy-free and eminently worthy tasks to turn one's >> > > attention to. >> > >> > In the couple of months I've been on advocacy, the dreamers, poets, >> > and armchair quarterbacks seem to have lots to say about FBSD. >> > Apparently, 'advocacy' is a cornucopia for issues and well-intended >> > solutions(sans any strategy for implementation). >> > >> > Of course, as much as I anticipate any number of tips, ideas, or >> > occasional successes in support of FBSD, I see very little except >> > from, say, Greg(Lehey). >> > >> > Let's see some real *SUPPORT* for FBSD! Hell, I work for a company >> > with it's own UNIX. Staff developers have free access to it and I >> > still managed to get 3 people in my group to go out and buy 2.2.7 >> > and build cable-modem gateways in their homes. >> >> Hey, just because we don't brag about each convert or satisfied >> customer that now has a FreeBSD box, doesn't mean we aren't out there >> promoting FreeBSD. I've got a number of significant local area wins over >> the last four to five years. >> >> I'm not saying that more couldn't be done. Just that what is >> being done is somewhat underrpresented/understated.... sounds like *BSD >> advocacy in general... >> >> I guess we could develop some ascii art tokens to represent how >> many kill each of us has and tack them onto our sigs like fighter pilots >> and their planes. ;-) > > >You're right. My 'example' suggests I'm looking for brag sheets. I'm >not. Instead, and in the spirit of advocacy, I was hoping to such things >as: > >o "X company is planning on a new UNIX network. What are some of > better selling points of FreeBSD against, say, SCO, Sol?" > >o "We don't have a SIG in our (community|town|city|state|country), > has anyone started one and how did you go about it?" > >o "We have a local computer rag and I was consider doing a promo. > Anyone here had experience with this?" > >o "I am considering writing SCSI support for the SYMBIOS chip set > and was wondering if anyone else had similar interests or had > heard of others involved with this?" > >o "My (college|university|alma mater) offers software to students at > substantial discount. I'd like to get then to offer FBSD as well. > Anyone done this before? Whom do I tell them to call?" > >Don't bother addressing any of the bulletized questions; they're >contrived and we all know it. The point is to establish a productive >dialog that promotes the use and widespread appeal of FBSD. > >I believe one of the keys to being a good advocate for something is >understanding it's stengths and weaknesses within and amongst its >peers(if any). Notice the few responses Greg(Lehey) is getting in >his recent appeals. > >BTW: Laugh all you want, but I like Adrian's "ascii art tokens". :-> > A FAQ wouldn't be too bad I guess. Something for people that says "Well I'm running this thing, I like it, I'm not paying for it, so what can I do to promote it?".. Wasn't there an ASCII around that said Powered By FreeBSD and had the daemon in it? I'd imagine it's pretty large to use in a sig, but considering some of my other ones.... :-) --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 28 20:08:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18941 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 20:08:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA18936 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 20:08:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 7469 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1998 04:08:37 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 29 Nov 1998 04:08:37 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA11525; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:08:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811290408.XAA11525@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <199811272152.OAA19036@usr02.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Nov 27, 98 09:52:38 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:08:36 -0500 (EST) Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, brett@lariat.org, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert said: > > o FreeBSD is still third-party layered software unfriendly > (some would call it antagonistic). There is no real > method in FreeBSD for installing software that is supposed > to start at system startup and shutdown gracefully at > system shutdown. > > Fix: Change the FreeBSD "init" process. This is political > suicide, but technological necessity. > No question about that. SYSV init or something close to that is necessary. > > o FreeBSD Linux emulation leaves something to be desired > (something called "Linux emulation"). This is most > apparent in the FreeBSD inability to run some kernel > threaded applications, like Oracle 8 for Linux. > > Fix: Get a copy of Oracle 8 for Linux, install it on > FreeBSD (in violation of the license) and Make It Work(tm). > We are getting close to shipping pthreads on NetBSD at work. I am asking for permission to donate it to FreeBSD. Since I am no longer involved with FreeBSD, there are more political issues to deal with now. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 28 21:54:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26424 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 21:54:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26419 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 21:54:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16554; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 22:56:13 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3660E1E8.27016719@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 22:55:52 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@iquest.net CC: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? References: <199811290408.XAA11525@y.dyson.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > Terry Lambert said: > > > > o FreeBSD is still third-party layered software unfriendly > > (some would call it antagonistic). There is no real > > method in FreeBSD for installing software that is supposed > > to start at system startup and shutdown gracefully at > > system shutdown. > > > > Fix: Change the FreeBSD "init" process. This is political > > suicide, but technological necessity. > > > No question about that. SYSV init or something close to that > is necessary. It shouldn't be all that difficult; have the arguments in that past been "it's just not BSD-ish?" -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 28 22:38:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29275 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 22:38:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell17.ba.best.com (shell17.ba.best.com [206.184.139.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29269 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 22:38:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toddpw@shell17.ba.best.com) Received: (from toddpw@localhost) by shell17.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id WAA28011; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 22:35:33 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Whitesel Message-Id: <199811290635.WAA28011@shell17.ba.best.com> Subject: Re: Merging Net/Free/Open-BSD together against Linux In-Reply-To: <19981127162648.R682@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 27, 98 04:26:48 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 22:35:33 -0800 (PST) Cc: adrian@ubergeeks.com, art@stacken.kth.se, alicia@internetpaper.com, netbsd-advocacy@NetBSD.ORG, FreeBSD-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@openbsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > If there is suficcient interest/manpower to make it more than a > > one-man show, I'll set up a 3-way CVS mirror at UVa or maybe a local ISP. > > We can tag an initial starting point and start merging into one of the > > three trees. If this bears fruit we can then re-merge any recent changes > > and make it a new baseline for userland. (Yes, there is undoubtedly a lot > > more to consider, but it's a start.) ... > Count me out. I don't think this is a worthwhile effort. Discuss > things, maintain more communication, try to keep things pointing in > the direction, sure. But your efforts aren't going to give us a > unified userland: they're more likely to create a fourth version. Translated into something more constructive: An attempt to produce a "unified" tree first and then get everyone to switch over to it later is a bad idea. It does seem to be working with EGCS, but only because Stallman capitulated in order to prevent a full mutiny. I don't think we want a repeat of that over here. Provide a tree that people can use to merge individual userland programs, and publish status reports on how each individual program is doing: whether it is unified, and which of the 3 projects has adopted the unified version. It is vastly more important that the _easy_ merges get done than that _all_ the merges get done. I suspect that the reason most of the past projects failed is because too many people refused to even _start_ on them until they were certain that the entire stated goal of the project could be completed. Screw that!! A partial success still has much benefit for everyone. Todd Whitesel toddpw @ best.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 28 23:27:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01668 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:27:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA01663 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:27:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA05267; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:56:50 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA00773; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:56:48 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19981129175648.F456@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:56:48 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , dyson@iquest.net Cc: Terry Lambert , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? References: <199811290408.XAA11525@y.dyson.net> <3660E1E8.27016719@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <3660E1E8.27016719@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sat, Nov 28, 1998 at 10:55:52PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Saturday, 28 November 1998 at 22:55:52 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > "John S. Dyson" wrote: >> >> Terry Lambert said: >>> >>> o FreeBSD is still third-party layered software unfriendly >>> (some would call it antagonistic). There is no real >>> method in FreeBSD for installing software that is supposed >>> to start at system startup and shutdown gracefully at >>> system shutdown. >>> >>> Fix: Change the FreeBSD "init" process. This is political >>> suicide, but technological necessity. >>> >> No question about that. SYSV init or something close to that >> is necessary. > > It shouldn't be all that difficult; have the arguments in that past > been "it's just not BSD-ish?" OK, I must be missing something, but what does System V init have that makes it easier to start up or shut down an application? /etc/rc*.d isn't the problem: that's a question of scripts, not init. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 28 23:32:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02084 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:32:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA02079 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:32:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 11055 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1998 07:32:27 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 29 Nov 1998 07:32:27 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA35872; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:32:27 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811290732.CAA35872@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <3660E1E8.27016719@softweyr.com> from Wes Peters at "Nov 28, 98 10:55:52 pm" To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:32:27 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters said: > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > > Terry Lambert said: > > > > > > o FreeBSD is still third-party layered software unfriendly > > > (some would call it antagonistic). There is no real > > > method in FreeBSD for installing software that is supposed > > > to start at system startup and shutdown gracefully at > > > system shutdown. > > > > > > Fix: Change the FreeBSD "init" process. This is political > > > suicide, but technological necessity. > > > > > No question about that. SYSV init or something close to that > > is necessary. > > It shouldn't be all that difficult; have the arguments in that past > been "it's just not BSD-ish?" > I believe that you are right. Anyone (IMO) who has really used a SYSV style init (and understands it), will find that it is a valuable tool. Expecting it to solve *all* problems is probably a little too demanding. However, IMO, it is a good tool that could help manage system startup and package startup/shutdown, etc. As any valuable tool, SYSV init can cause problems -- but then if it hurts (SYSV init does something evil), then don't make it do the evil thing!!! :-). One can hack a solution with BSD init, but it ends up implementing subsets of SYSV init. Why not go all the way and just do it? If SYSV init has serious problems (which it is indeed NOT perfect), then implement either a better version, or start moving forward with an existant version, and then move forward from there. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Nov 28 23:34:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA02312 for freebsd-advocacy-outgoing; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:34:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA02307 for ; Sat, 28 Nov 1998 23:34:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 11319 invoked from network); 29 Nov 1998 07:33:53 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 29 Nov 1998 07:33:53 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA35884; Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:33:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199811290733.CAA35884@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Linux to be deployed in Mexican schools; Where was FreeBSD? In-Reply-To: <19981129175648.F456@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Nov 29, 98 05:56:48 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 02:33:53 -0500 (EST) Cc: wes@softweyr.com, dyson@iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Lehey said: > > OK, I must be missing something, but what does System V init have that > makes it easier to start up or shut down an application? /etc/rc*.d > isn't the problem: that's a question of scripts, not init. > Init supports runmodes (good or bad -- I don't care -- if one doesn't like it, then don't use them.) SysV init has an established set of standards for usage of startup/shutdown files. It doesn't solve ALL problems, but moves forward, other than just staying idle. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message