From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 11 00:46:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id AAA03849 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:46:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id AAA03825 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:46:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA00303; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:45:48 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199801110845.DAA00303@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Book Request In-Reply-To: <11761.884504663@time.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Jan 10, 98 11:44:23 pm" To: jkh@time.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 03:45:48 -0500 (EST) Cc: grog@lemis.com, andreas@klemm.gtn.com, jamie@itribe.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > > Funny you should mention that, since it was also our conclusion at the > > > recent FreeBSD-sf meeting. Some folks went away to look into adapting > > > the HowTo's for FreeBSD, no status on that yet tho. > > > > Great. Was nobody too worried about the GPL? > > If we can deal with this for our compiler, I think we can deal with > this for a section of our docs. ;) > There should be no problem with "oddly" licensed tools. It is the runtime that needs to be maintained to be unencumbered, and (IMO) the documentation is one of those things where GPL is less undesirable than in the runtime areas. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 11 02:52:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA09810 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:52:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sax.sax.de (sax.sax.de [193.175.26.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA09780 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 02:52:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by sax.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id LAA14887; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:52:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from j@uriah.heep.sax.de) Received: (from j@localhost) by uriah.heep.sax.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id LAA27585; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:21:53 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980111112153.11454@uriah.heep.sax.de> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:21:53 +0100 From: J Wunsch To: Annelise Anderson Cc: Wolfgang Helbig , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmr@ugcs.caltech.edu, kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net, chris@bb.cc.wa.us Subject: Re: learn program Reply-To: Joerg Wunsch References: <19980110100811.19817@uriah.heep.sax.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Annelise Anderson on Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 02:28:09AM -0800 X-Phone: +49-351-2012 669 X-PGP-Fingerprint: DC 47 E6 E4 FF A6 E9 8F 93 21 E0 7D F9 12 D6 4E Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As Annelise Anderson wrote: > Here's a suggestion: Invite people (users new to unix) on freebsd- > questions to beta test the program. > > One of the features of "learn" is that it intereacts directly with > the unix system, so if things have changed, either in the programs or > commands being taught or the underlying unix utilities, there could be > problems. I think you're right. Realizing that the previous attempt to fix the texts ``off-line'' miserably failed, it's probably best to just import them, with a disclaimer in the BUGS section of the man page (lest anybody should be suprised), and let's see how the users would like that tool. -- cheers, J"org joerg_wunsch@uriah.heep.sax.de -- http://www.sax.de/~joerg/ -- NIC: JW11-RIPE Never trust an operating system you don't have sources for. ;-) From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 11 06:16:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id GAA27139 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 06:16:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id GAA27127 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 06:16:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.8.8/frmug-2.2/nospam) with UUCP id PAA21952 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 15:16:04 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.8.8/keltia-2.13/nospam) id MAA03917; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:59:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980111125932.30644@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 12:59:32 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FYI, about fonts on Xwindows References: <199711182206.RAA03580@dyson.iquest.net> <19980110143830.05694@klemm.gtn.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <19980110143830.05694@klemm.gtn.com>; from Andreas Klemm on Sat, Jan 10, 1998 at 02:38:30PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#3963 AMD-K6 MMX @ 208 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Andreas Klemm: > Where's that program available ? Look for "type1inst-0.6.tar.gz" with FTPsearch () -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #2: Thu Jan 8 00:49:00 CET 1998 From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 11 13:49:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA09986 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:49:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (root@mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA09969 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 13:49:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from panke.panke.de (anonymous222.ppp.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.222]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.8.6/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01451; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:43:27 +0100 (MET) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by panke.panke.de (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA01123; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 18:34:33 +0100 (MET) To: Brian Tao Cc: Greg Lehey , FREEBSD-CHAT Subject: Re: www.freebsd.org down? References: From: Wolfram Schneider Date: 11 Jan 1998 18:34:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brian Tao's message of Sun, 11 Jan 1998 00:54:13 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Lines: 14 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brian Tao writes: > Yeah, I was able to ping it too. Something was still listening on > port 80 at least, since I was able to bring up a connection to it. > Never got a response back from a "HEAD / HTTP/1.0" request though. > That was right when I wanted to show someone the cvsweb interface. :( > www.de.freebsd.org seems to have a mirror of it (although not > completely up-to-date). hub.freebsd.org seems fine now. www.de.freebsd.org alias cvsup.de.freebsd.org update every 6 hours the CVS tree. So the cvsweb.cgi script here is in average 3 hours behind www.freebsd.org. -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 11 16:43:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA25746 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:43:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id QAA25634; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:42:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199801120042.QAA25634@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Book Request To: softweyr@xmission.com (Wes Peters) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 16:42:03 -0800 (PST) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <34B864B9.903B63CF@xmission.com> from "Wes Peters" at Jan 10, 98 11:20:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters wrote: > > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > between the ORA books and the addison-wesley swoosh series > > i must have 20 odd books. > > > > my wife always asks do you really need those? ;) > > My computer book library dates back to the early 80's, and includes a > second printing of K&R (back when it was $17.75 at the college bookstore). > I had a complete set of the grey Atari ST books from Abacus, and a first > edition of the Xinu book. I think I currently have over 250 volumes of > various computer books, most of which are uselessly out of date. Sigh. well if you want to count all computer books and not just the ORA books and the addison-wesley swoosh series ;) hmm.....first editions from mindshare, adobe postscipt 3 volumes but this becomes a "mine is bigger" tale. > > TCP/IP books, on the other hand, pretty much never go out of style. > How long has it been since the FTP protocol, or the sockets interface > for that matter, have changed? > > I wish W. Richard Stevens would come back from the lecture circuit long > enought to put together a really good TCP/IP illustrated volume 4, and > cover HTTP, TLS, and many of the relatively new internet protocols; I > could have really used such a book this last year. HTTP is covered in volume 3. what's TLS? jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 11 17:59:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id RAA05737 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:59:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA05117 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 17:55:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00607; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:14:37 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199801120144.MAA00607@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: Greg Lehey , Andreas Klemm , Jamie Bowden , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Book Request In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 10 Jan 1998 23:24:59 -0800." <11634.884503499@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:14:37 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > A lot of this Linux stuff could form a basis for a corresponding > > FreeBSD howto. Sure, it would still be GNU licence, but I can live > > with that. > > Funny you should mention that, since it was also our conclusion at the > recent FreeBSD-sf meeting. Some folks went away to look into adapting > the HowTo's for FreeBSD, no status on that yet tho. These people should be aware that the principal value of the HowTo's seems to be their existence, rather than their contents. We can do better, I'm sure. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 11 18:01:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA06022 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 18:01:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA05983 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 18:00:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA14427; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:29:00 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id MAA06042; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:28:59 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from grog) Message-ID: <19980112122858.26316@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:28:58 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Andreas Klemm , Jamie Bowden , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Book Request References: <11634.884503499@time.cdrom.com> <199801120144.MAA00607@word.smith.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84e In-Reply-To: <199801120144.MAA00607@word.smith.net.au>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 12:14:37PM +1030 Organisation: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 12, 1998 at 12:14:37PM +1030, Mike Smith wrote: >>> A lot of this Linux stuff could form a basis for a corresponding >>> FreeBSD howto. Sure, it would still be GNU licence, but I can live >>> with that. >> >> Funny you should mention that, since it was also our conclusion at the >> recent FreeBSD-sf meeting. Some folks went away to look into adapting >> the HowTo's for FreeBSD, no status on that yet tho. > > These people should be aware that the principal value of the HowTo's > seems to be their existence, rather than their contents. We can do > better, I'm sure. 8) Sure, we can always do better if we start from scratch, especially if we know the available documents. But it would take much longer. Maybe. It depends on how many modifications need to be made. I've just taken a cursory look at the Linux book the WC people sent me. Things like the Programmer Guide (over 100 pages) look like they could be take over with only minor modifications. The Network Guide is essentially the O'Reilly book (over 200 pages in this minute font). I would guess that half of it could be used. There are plenty of others that, even if they don't get modified, could serve as useful input about *what* to write on a subject. Greg From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 11 22:54:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id WAA07423 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:54:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id WAA07395 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 1998 22:54:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id HAA25135 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 07:45:07 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id BAA00679; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:02:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980112010227.58818@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 01:02:27 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: www.distributed.net's M$ SQL server has a 200 user limit :-> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Error Performing Query [State=08004][Error=17809][Microsoft][ODBC SQL Server Driver][SQL Server]Unable to connect. The maximum number of '200' configured user connections are already connected. System Administrator can configure to a higher value with sp_configure. tststs ;-) -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 12 02:26:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA26087 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:26:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA26053 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 02:25:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from aegir.ifi.uio.no (2602@aegir.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.190]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id LAA16968 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:25:53 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by aegir.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:25:52 +0100 (MET) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD splash in a wired article. References: Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse X-url: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 12 Jan 1998 11:25:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: Open Systems Networking's message of Fri, 9 Jan 1998 15:25:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Open Systems Networking writes: > http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/9581.html "DeVoe said that openly-developed operating systems, such as FreeBSD and Linux, had patches available for the teardrop exploit very early on." AFAIR BSD-based OSes, unlike Windows and Linux, never *were* vulnerable to teardrop - or does my memory fail me? -- * Finrod (INTJ) * Unix weenie * dag-erli@ifi.uio.no * cellular +47-92835919 * RFC1123: "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send" # unzip ; strip ; touch ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; yes ; umount ; sleep From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 12 10:28:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA08268 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:28:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA08186 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 10:28:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA26934; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:27:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:27:44 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Griffith To: Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD splash in a wired article. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id KAA08204 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can some tell us young folks what the teardrop exploit is ???? Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com On 12 Jan 1998, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Open Systems Networking writes: > > http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/9581.html > > "DeVoe said that openly-developed operating systems, such as FreeBSD > and Linux, had patches available for the teardrop exploit very early > on." > > AFAIR BSD-based OSes, unlike Windows and Linux, never *were* > vulnerable to teardrop - or does my memory fail me? From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 12 12:19:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24159 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:19:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24154 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:19:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id MAA16415; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:18:59 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:18:59 -0800 (PST) From: Jan Koum X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Paul Griffith cc: Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD splash in a wired article. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id MAA24156 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.rootshell.com/archive-Rbf4ahcmxzw5qn2S/199711/teardrop.c -- Yan On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Paul Griffith wrote: >Can some tell us young folks what the teardrop exploit is ???? > >Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com > >On 12 Jan 1998, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > >> Open Systems Networking writes: >> > http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/9581.html >> >> "DeVoe said that openly-developed operating systems, such as FreeBSD >> and Linux, had patches available for the teardrop exploit very early >> on." >> >> AFAIR BSD-based OSes, unlike Windows and Linux, never *were* >> vulnerable to teardrop - or does my memory fail me? > > From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 12 12:22:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id MAA24471 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:22:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xmission.xmission.com (softweyr@xmission.xmission.com [198.60.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA24343; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:21:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.xmission.com) Received: (from softweyr@localhost) by xmission.xmission.com (8.8.7/8.7.5) id NAA03478; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:20:58 -0700 (MST) From: Wes Peters - Softweyr LLC Message-Id: <199801122020.NAA03478@xmission.xmission.com> Subject: Re: Book Request To: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG (Jonathan M. Bresler) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:20:56 -0700 (MST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199801120042.QAA25634@hub.freebsd.org> from "Jonathan M. Bresler" at Jan 11, 98 04:42:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters lamented: % I wish W. Richard Stevens would come back from the lecture circuit long % enought to put together a really good TCP/IP illustrated volume 4, and % cover HTTP, TLS, and many of the relatively new internet protocols; I % could have really used such a book this last year. Jonathan M. Bresler replied: > HTTP is covered in volume 3. But only just barely; he basically looks at the socket usage from HTTP/1.0 client/server connections. What I really wanted was a good discussion of how the HTTP/1.1 protocol is suppose to work. Which headers do you use to reliably specify that you're using keep-alive connections, and how long the connections will stay alive? What does your sever need to do to achieve high throughput? Etc. HTTP is really quite a complex protocol at the 1.1 level; I fear what the "design committee" has done to the 2.0 protocol. > what's TLS? Transport Layer Security -- the draft IETF standard based on SSL. It is alarmingly difficult to find any documentation on how to implement the protocol for https:// URLs. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 12 13:19:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA02012 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:19:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA01985 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:18:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id QAA10824 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:18:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:18:36 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD Book (Forget ORA) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Seeing as how ORA does not seem interested in publishing any FreeBSD material, I wrote addison wesley. They appear to be open minded about it, well ok at least they replied :) As you will note in this mail ireceived from them they had already talked to someone from the FreeBSD camp at the '96 USENIX meeting, and I assume it was jordan? Anyway here's the reply I got and I am hoping something actually will happen. It would be great! ------------ Dear Chris- Thanks for contacting us. Quite interesting (I have Free BSD 2.1 from Walnut Creek here)! I spoke with someone from their group about such a book at Usenix, January 1996 in San Diego. The person for you to speak with is Carter Shanklin, copied on this email. He operates from our Menlo Park, CA office, and I know he'll be in touch with you directly. ------------ -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 12 19:16:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) id TAA19736 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:16:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA19726 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:16:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.8.8/8.8.BEST) with SMTP id TAA22798; Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:16:20 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 19:16:20 -0800 (PST) From: Jan Koum X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Terry Lambert cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Splash screen (splashkit) for 3.0 systems... In-Reply-To: <199801122125.OAA20388@usr09.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Do you still have it? It would look great with afterstep :) -- Yan On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: >> > It would seem to me that your best bet would be to consider making a >> > custom version of 'getty' with libvgl, since getty is going to >> > determine how idle time between logins should be handled. That's >> > pretty well out of syscons's jurisdiction. >> > >> > Actually, making just such a thing just got put on my TODO list. >> >> It's a very short step from there to a semi-graphical login (eg. login >> dialog rather than login/password prompt.) I could see people liking >> that. > >They can enable it in the /etc/ttys. > >Heh. Reminds me. I made an xdm clone of the NeXT login screen >a long time ago. It even "shook" left and right on failure. 8-). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. > From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 13 16:54:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01158 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:22:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01707 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:00:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id SAA25169; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:25:35 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 18:25:58 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Book (Forget ORA) In-Reply-To: <18770.884676841@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > It was me and I still have the contract for the FreeBSD book from > Addison-Wesley sitting on my desk. :-( > > Strange that you should bring it up because just this morning I was > looking over the outline I submitted to them about 4 months back and > thinking that I should take it to the next stage, which is to send > them the 2 beginning chapters they requested. Bah. :) What!! 4 months!@#!@ Step on it old man!@#@! haha :) Chris -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 13 16:57:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01528 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 16:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA07015 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 15:40:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA07349; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:29:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma007337; Tue, 13 Jan 98 08:28:32 -0800 Message-ID: <34BB9671.6CC71DBE@partsnow.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 08:29:37 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@partsnow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Open Systems Networking CC: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Book (Forget ORA) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> forget ORA << On the contrary, I just got a very nice reply from Tim O'Reilly himself. Although we didn't address the issue of him publishing Greg's book, he is open to the use of FreeBSD in books where FreeBSD is the right choice. You can't deny that he's right that our user base is smaller than Linux. He says he's rather disappointed at the results of his Linux-specific books, so I can understand his reluctance. The reality is that you've got to write something worth publishing. O'Reilly's problem is that he's already published books on most of the stuff a FreeBSD book would cover, and Greg's book certainly doesn't leave him much room. Greg didn't leave much out! There's also ORA's 'X User Tools' which sits in the middle, and that covers a lot of ground, too. I do think there's room for a swoopy-apps book written about real-world FreeBSD projects. I've got some neat stuff I'm brewing with web and fax integration, Amancio's fxtv is definitely a winner, and I'm sure Wes Peters could come up with some good juicy apps, and that's just three of us. Just describing that monster server conglomeration that hosts CDROM.com would make a great chapter. Maybe we could even talk the Yahoo guys into giving us a diagram of how they use FreeBSD servers in their system. I'm up for spearheading such an effort. I'd like to see a book with maybe 20 projects showcased that highlight the power and flexibility of FreeBSD and the other freeware tools that are out there (like Perl, GNU, ghostscript, etc.), and the awesome capability this cheap Intel hardware gives us. Any offerings? Here's Tim's reply, in its entirety: > > It has always looked to us that the FreeBSD market has too > small a user base to support a lot of specific books. Our > experience with Linux, which has a much larger installed base, > hasn't been that overwhelming either. And as you say, a lot > of our existing books are already appropriate. > > That being said, we'd be open to hearing from people who > have specific book proposals, which address both the need > for the specific book and why a FreeBSD version will succeed. > (Are you thinking of something general, like Running Linux? > Or books that drill down to specific topics, as we do > with most of our books?) > > Anyway, feel free to pass this on to the list. > > > -- > Tim O'Reilly @ O'Reilly & Associates, Inc. > 101 Morris Street, Sebastopol, CA 95472 > 707-829-0515 ext 266, Fax 707-829-0104, tim@ora.com > http://www.oreilly.com http://software.oreilly.com http://www.songline.com -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 13 19:33:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01805 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:33:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA01800 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:32:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from softweyr@xmission.com) Received: from xmission.com [166.70.2.60] by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 1.73 #4) id 0xsJZP-000353-00; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:32:47 -0700 Message-ID: <34BC3536.76C262F2@xmission.com> Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:47:02 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Open Systems Networking CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Book (Forget ORA) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Open Systems Networking wrote: > > Seeing as how ORA does not seem interested in publishing any FreeBSD > material, I wrote addison wesley. They appear to be open minded about it, > well ok at least they replied :) Now that'd be cool: a "swoosh" book about FreeBSD. Of course, it'll cost $20 more per copy, too. Has anybody contacted the editor mentioned, to find out what kinds of topics/titles he might be interested in? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.xmission.com/~softweyr softweyr@xmission.com From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 13 19:40:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02643 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:40:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02633 for ; Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:40:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id EAA28930; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:40:16 +0100 (MET) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:40:16 +0100 (MET) To: David Kelly Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Book Request References: <199801102351.RAA23258@nospam.hiwaay.net> Organization: Gutteklubben Terrasse X-url: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 14 Jan 1998 04:40:15 +0100 In-Reply-To: David Kelly's message of "Sat, 10 Jan 1998 17:51:27 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly writes: > I aquired 6' of ORA books because I have (and/or "have had", time to > think about that some more) a high opinion of ORA books and would often > buy another by ORA rather than some other publisher simply because I > don't think I've ever been burned with a useless book from ORA. Try the Apache book. It sucks rocks. -- * Finrod (INTJ) * Unix weenie * dag-erli@ifi.uio.no * cellular +47-92835919 * RFC1123: "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send" # unzip ; strip ; touch ; finger ; mount ; fsck ; more ; yes ; umount ; sleep From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 14 01:45:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA18860 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 01:45:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA18855 for ; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 01:45:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id EAA27814; Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:44:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 04:45:05 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Book (Forget ORA) In-Reply-To: <18770.884676841@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > It was me and I still have the contract for the FreeBSD book from > Addison-Wesley sitting on my desk. :-( > > Strange that you should bring it up because just this morning I was > looking over the outline I submitted to them about 4 months back and > thinking that I should take it to the next stage, which is to send > them the 2 beginning chapters they requested. Bah. :) What!!! *4* Months!!! Step on it old man! hehe :) Chris -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 18 08:22:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20257 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:22:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user4206@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA20240 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:22:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 18 Jan 1998 02:47:55 -0000 Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 19:47:55 -0700 (MST) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: Damian Hamill cc: "Andras Tudos - Computronic, C3" , freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Distributed Webservers In-Reply-To: <34C1254B.41C67EA6@cablenet.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Check out iodbc. It is an ODBC compatible library for UN*X. It compiles cleanly under FreeBSD. I have the tar file if you can't find it. It allows you to write generic ODBC C/C++. I also believe JDBC (Java Database Conenctivity) is included as part of the JDK from Sun. MS Access (and/or MS SQL) should be JDBC compatible soon if not already. I have not seen any ODBC compatible modules for interpreted scripts (Perl, Tcl/TK, Python, etc), but some DBs do have interactive clients that can be easily embedded into such scripts (like Kubl's isql, from www.kubl.com). Kevin On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Damian Hamill wrote: > Andras Tudos - Computronic, C3 wrote: > > > > And how would one connect to an existing M$ SQL server from FreeBSD? Any > > cool ideas? > > Use Mysql instead of M$ SQL as I suggested below. > > > > > Andras Tudos > > C3, Budapest > > > > At 12:50 98.01.17 +0000, Damian Hamill wrote: > > >Joe Mays wrote: > > >> > > >> Lists wrote: > > >> > > > >> > I don't understand why a customer would need NT unless they needed > > >> > Frontpage extensions, which 1. are crap and 2. are available on > > >> > UN*X anyway! > > >> > > > >> > Any other reasons? > > >> > > >> ASP. Access database integration. > > > > > >Available in apache as PHP for no charge with source code. You can > > >define functions and extend as you wish. > > > > > >> MSSQL integration. > > > > > >Apache->PHp->Mysql all free. > > > > > >AND > > > > > >Delhpi->ODBC->Mysql is even sexier. > > > > > >>I > > >> personally have no desire for NT, but these are the reasons > > >> are customers want to be able to run things off of NT, often > > >> in conjunction with a site under BSD, and I have no desire > > >> to tell them to get lost just because I don't care for NT > > >> myself. > > > > > >I had a customer that wanted to go NT until I showed then the above > > >solutions. They now have a site based on these with a Delphi admin app. > > > > > >vey cool!! > > > > > >regards > > >damian > > > > > >-- > > >* Damian Hamill M.D. damian@cablenet.net > > >* CableNet & The Landscape Channel > > >* http://www.cablenet.net/ http://www.landscapetv.com/ > > > > > -- > * Damian Hamill M.D. damian@cablenet.net > * CableNet & The Landscape Channel > * http://www.cablenet.net/ http://www.landscapetv.com/ > From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 18 11:52:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07913 for chat-outgoing; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:52:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cedb.dpcsys.com (cedb.dpcsys.com [206.16.184.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07878; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:51:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dan@dpcsys.com) Received: from localhost (dan@localhost) by cedb.dpcsys.com (8.8.5/8.8.2) with SMTP id TAA02465; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:51:28 GMT Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:51:28 -0800 (PST) From: Dan Busarow cc: freebsd-isp@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Distributed Webservers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 17 Jan 1998, Atipa wrote: > I have not seen any ODBC compatible modules for interpreted scripts > (Perl, Tcl/TK, Python, etc), but some DBs do have interactive clients that > can be easily embedded into such scripts (like Kubl's isql, from > www.kubl.com). There is an ODBC module for DBI::DBD I haven't used it but from the DBI list it sounds like it's still rough but functional and improving quickly. Dan -- Dan Busarow 714 443 4172 DPC Systems / Beach.Net dan@dpcsys.com Dana Point, California 83 09 EF 59 E0 11 89 B4 8D 09 DB FD E1 DD 0C 82 From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 19 08:52:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA14900 for chat-outgoing; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:52:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from icicle.winternet.com (adm@icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA14888 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 08:52:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mestery@mail.winternet.com) Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17141 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:52:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from tundra.winternet.com(198.174.169.11) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0) id xma016978; Mon, 19 Jan 98 10:51:41 -0600 Received: from localhost (mestery@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA23435 for ; Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:51:40 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: tundra.winternet.com: mestery owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 10:51:40 -0600 (CST) From: Kyle Mestery To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Link light on ethernet cards Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have a question related to ethernet links that I thought someone on this list might know. When you plug an RJ45 link into a hub, what makes the link light come on? Is it something to do with the physical layer, or the MAC chip, or what? I was just curious as to how the link light determines a link has been established. Thanks. Kyle Mestery StorageTek's Network Systems Group 7600 Boone Ave. N., Minneapolis, MN 55428 mesteka@anubis.network.com, mestery@winternet.com FreeBSD hope.winternet.com 3.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT #0: Thu Dec 11 21:35:02 CST 1997 mestery@hope.winternet.com:/usr/src/sys/compile/HOPE i386 From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 20 08:59:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17040 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:59:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay.cs.tcd.ie (relay.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.32.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17030 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 08:58:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from careilly@monoid.cs.tcd.ie) Received: from monoid.cs.tcd.ie (monoid.cs.tcd.ie [134.226.38.99]) by relay.cs.tcd.ie (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA01989 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:58:31 GMT Received: from monoid.cs.tcd.ie (localhost.my.domain [127.0.0.1]) by monoid.cs.tcd.ie (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01212 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:55:17 GMT Message-Id: <199801201655.QAA01212@monoid.cs.tcd.ie> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Organiser/Time management software for X? X-Address: Department of Computer Science, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland. X-Phone: +353-(0)1-6081321 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-ID: <1207.885315313.1@monoid.cs.tcd.ie> Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 16:55:14 +0000 From: Colman Reilly Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone know of a decent and free or cheap diary/organiser/todo list manager application that will run on X under FreeBSD? Colman From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 20 17:03:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24480 for chat-outgoing; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:03:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24466 for ; Tue, 20 Jan 1998 17:02:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00295; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:25:29 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199801210055.LAA00295@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Sean Eric Fagan cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Nasty GCC bug? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Jan 1998 14:06:21 -0800." <199801202206.OAA18817@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:25:27 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Is is an artifact of the calling convention, which is implementation > >defined. > > No, it is not. > > Variardic functions ARE REQUIRED TO USE OLD-STYLE PROMOTION RULES. ... > Terry, you are *WRONG*. Admit it. "Terry Lambert discovers printf(), film at 11". -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 21 00:20:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03330 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:20:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [194.77.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03312 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:20:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id JAA04589; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:15:24 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id JAA05233; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:03:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980121090322.37020@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 09:03:22 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: Colman Reilly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Organiser/Time management software for X? References: <199801201655.QAA01212@monoid.cs.tcd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <199801201655.QAA01212@monoid.cs.tcd.ie>; from Colman Reilly on Tue, Jan 20, 1998 at 04:55:14PM +0000 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 20, 1998 at 04:55:14PM +0000, Colman Reilly wrote: > Anyone know of a decent and free or cheap diary/organiser/todo list manager > application that will run on X under FreeBSD? plan -- Andreas Klemm powered by ,,symmetric multiprocessor FreeBSD'' From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 21 05:40:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24844 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 05:40:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA24833 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 05:40:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA21139 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:40:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:39:43 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Griffith To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: March Issue of Byte Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In the March issue of Byte, Byte software labs will pit Aix, HP-UX, Linux, Digital Unix, and Solaris against Win NT to see how they compare in terms of server setup, scalability, and Reliability to see which one is the best OS for web servers. I plan to send them an e-mail asking why they have not included FreeBSD in the line up. Maybe some of you could also do the same. Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 21 07:14:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01569 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:14:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vinyl.quickweb.com (vinyl.quickweb.com [209.112.4.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA01530 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 07:14:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@quickweb.com) Received: (from mark@localhost) by vinyl.quickweb.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id KAA14889; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:16:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19980121101652.59766@vmunix.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:16:52 -0500 From: Mark Mayo To: Paul Griffith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: March Issue of Byte References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.85e In-Reply-To: ; from Paul Griffith on Wed, Jan 21, 1998 at 08:39:43AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 21, 1998 at 08:39:43AM -0500, Paul Griffith wrote: > In the March issue of Byte, Byte software labs will pit Aix, HP-UX, Linux, > Digital Unix, and Solaris against Win NT to see how they compare in terms > of server setup, scalability, and Reliability to see which one is the best > OS for web servers. > > > I plan to send them an e-mail asking why they have not included FreeBSD in > the line up. Maybe some of you could also do the same. Do you know who we should email? I'm assuming David Essex (desseix@bix.com) who coordinates the reviews, or Rich Friedman (rfriednam@bix.com) who is the executive editor.. > > Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark Mayo mark@vmunix.com RingZero Comp. http://www.vmunix.com/mark finger mark@vmunix.com for my PGP key and GCS code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Win95/NT - 32 bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16 bit patch to an an 8 bit operating system originally coded for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company that can't stand 1 bit of competition. -UGU From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 21 08:41:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA10053 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:41:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cerberus.partsnow.com (gatekeeper.partsnow.com [207.155.26.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA10032 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:41:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from don@partsnow.com) Received: (from bin@localhost) by cerberus.partsnow.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) id IAA07444 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:39:04 -0800 (PST) X-Authentication-Warning: cerberus.partsnow.com: bin set sender to using -f Received: from wildeweb(192.168.100.10) by cerberus.partsnow.com via smap (V2.0) id xma007437; Wed, 21 Jan 98 08:38:58 -0800 Message-ID: <34C624E6.25CFC7F3@partsnow.com> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 08:40:06 -0800 From: Don Wilde Reply-To: don@partsnow.com Organization: Soligen, Incorporated X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: higher profile for FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, all - I was just filling out yet another silly bingo card for a trade mag, and I realised that there's an opportunity to raise the world's consciousness of FreeBSD. Instead of checking the UNIX (SVR4, AIX, etc) box, proudly check OTHER and write in FreeBSD. It's just a small step, but I think we should all take it. Besides, thanks to the stupid trademark issue others have been discussing, it's technically true. A second plug is coming up. I have been asked to be a panelist with a 20-minute presentation at Networld+Interop in May in a session titled "Extranet War Stories", and I intend to use it as a forum for showing that our company has been successful in building an xxxxxnet presence built solely on freeware like FreeBSD, Apache, GNU and Perl, and that this is a viable path for corporate development of commerce websites. Feel free to join in, introduce yourself, and throw peanuts :) -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ ________ _________ _________ ___==_ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [don@PartsNow.com] [http://www.PartsNow.com ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo--ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo--oo  From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 21 10:03:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA16400 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:03:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [198.53.145.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA16380 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:03:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.3/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA17119; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:03:40 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 13:03:17 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Griffith To: Mark Mayo cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: March Issue of Byte In-Reply-To: <19980121101652.59766@vmunix.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com Here is what I got from Byte mag. Reviews: Director : David Essex dave.essex@byte.com Technical Manager, Byte Lab: Al Gallant al.gallant@byte.com and since this might a feature (cover page story) we can also try Tom Thompson (Senior Technical Editor at Large) tom.thompson@byte.com Mark Schlack (Editor in Chief) mark.schlack@byte.com --- Let's not try to send so much e-mail, that they think of it as a SPAM attack. > > Do you know who we should email? I'm assuming David Essex (desseix@bix.com) > who coordinates the reviews, or Rich Friedman (rfriednam@bix.com) who is > the executive editor.. > From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 21 17:07:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21251 for chat-outgoing; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:07:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21204 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 17:07:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id SAA18855 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:07:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA23853 for ; Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:06:17 -0700 (MST) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:06:17 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: anyone remember the 64 of 128 meg benchmarking thread? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There was a thread somewhere around here a number of months ago about a magazine or something that did some web benchmarking, but the FreeBSD numbers were reputed to have only been with 64 megs of RAM because they didn't take the two seconds to configure it for 128. Anyone remember the name of that thread and if it was indeed on chat? I can't find it in the archives... From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 07:04:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19839 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:04:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19835 for chat; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:04:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 07:04:50 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199801221504.HAA19835@hub.freebsd.org> To: chat Subject: anyone going to USENIX security conference Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org next week the USENIX security conference will be in san antonio tx. any one going there? a friend fo mine will be there, paul grabow. he also runs freebsd. jmb From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 09:08:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01288 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:08:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bird.te.rl.ac.uk (bird.te.rl.ac.uk [130.246.19.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01283 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 09:08:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tmb@rcru.rl.ac.uk) Received: from rcru.rl.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bird.te.rl.ac.uk (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA02333; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:05:58 GMT (envelope-from tmb@rcru.rl.ac.uk) Message-Id: <199801221705.RAA02333@bird.te.rl.ac.uk> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: tmb@rcru.rl.ac.uk Subject: The Byte March 1998 OS test Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:05:58 +0000 From: Mark Blackman Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: Message-ID: <34C782AD.26BAE644@byte.com> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 11:32:29 -0600 From: mschlack@dev5.byte.com (Mark Schlack) Reply-To: mark.schlack@byte.com Organization: The McGraw-Hill Companies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) To: Mark Blackman Subject: Re: March OS comparison.. Thanks for your interest in our Web server test. Unfortunately, it's all done. Obviously, we had to limit the varieties of Unix to make the test manageable. You might want to ask Russ Kay, the editor on the story, about his criteria (russ.kay@byte.com). I know that we receive a lot of letters from the Linux community, especially with respect to the Web, and very little from BSD folks. That may have guided our choice of a "free" Unix to include. ========================= Mark Schlack Editor in Chief Byte 29 Hartwell Ave. Lexington, MA 02173 Mschlack@byte.com Voice: (617)860-6827 ========================= From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 12:17:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16830 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:17:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16806 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 12:17:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: (from stuart@localhost) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8[tis]/8.8.8) id UAA23096; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:07:47 GMT Message-ID: <19980122200747.24501@outofsite.internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:07:47 +0000 From: stuart henderson To: postmaster@microsoft.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@openbsd.org, "well it can't hurt :-" Subject: and why not... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.81 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To the postmaster: I would be grateful if you could forward this message for me; I don't have access to your internal email system. This is a very serious suggestion offered freely in the best interests of both Microsoft Corporation and the people of the world. ======================================== For the personal attention of Bill Gates ======================================== Please spare me a moment and read on. Why are you wasting so much of your support department's time and budget by using MS-DOS as the kernel for Windows 95? By using the features provided by the forthcoming Intel binary compatability systems, you could distribute a single upgrade package for all major Intel UNIX environments. By taking advantage of the generous BSD licensing terms, you could also distribute a fully packaged system with integrated installation scripts as you now do. The only difference from your existing "full product" and "upgrade" packages would be the base OS. Why not take advantage of the fully featured modern multitasking OS kernels with inbuilt high performance, high reliability I/O and virtual memory subsystems that are now available? The window managers (GUI's) available for the X Window system (the UNIX equivalent to GDI) are worlds apart from Windows 95. Many different GUI's are available to operate under "X" but most are deficient in the human interface department; this is exactly where Microsoft's best expertise lies. Nobody else has done so much to bring the benefits of computing to the attention of the human race and the media, and you have certainly made a lot of money from it. Surely it's now time to give something back by making Windows 98 a truly great chimera, rather than yet another in what seems an endless stream of upgrades to the weak MSDOS kernel. Both technically and commercially, it could make excellent sense. Jaron Lanier at Wired seems to have come up with the same idea judging by one of his comments on page 62 of 6.01 (January 1998 edition). I shall close here in the hope that this has given you food for thought and would like to thank you for your time. I hope it has been well spent. Stuart From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 17:25:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11195 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:25:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hyperreal.org (taz.hyperreal.org [204.62.130.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA11181 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:25:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 21913 invoked by uid 24); 23 Jan 1998 01:25:40 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19980122171421.00804cc0@hyperreal.org> X-Sender: brian@hyperreal.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:14:21 -0800 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brian Behlendorf Subject: free publicity for FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org plug plug plug http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/9813.html Brian --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-- "Optimism is a strategy for making brian@apache.org a better future." - Noam Chomsky brian@hyperreal.org From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 18:13:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14884 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:13:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14872 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:13:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA18692; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:13:35 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199801230213.SAA18692@kithrup.com> To: AdamT@smginc.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>Please bear in mind there is a good chance that it will be released >under a >> "for non-commercial use only" license, in which case it won't be able >to be on >> the freebsd cdrom. Still. >Uh, no. According to the press announcement, the source is going out >under the GPL. 1. I set the Reply-To: to chat@freebsd.org for a reason. The main reason being I do not like getting multiple copies, nor do I like continuing to get messages addressed directly to me when it's no longer a reply to something I said. 2. Go read the press release again. It does not say they'll use the GPL; rather, it says they'll make it free "in the spirit of the GPL." This may be the GPL after all; I think it's more likely that it'll be a non-commercial-use license, though. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 18:28:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15955 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:28:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cs1.cityscope.net (cs1.cityscope.net [206.222.183.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15944 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:28:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bahwi@cityscope.net) Received: from cs1.cityscope.net.net (pm1-37.cityscope.net [209.16.48.37]) by cs1.cityscope.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA13359 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:32:18 -0600 Message-Id: <199801230232.UAA13359@cs1.cityscope.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "bahwi" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:26:52 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: How do I set up name servers.. Reply-to: bahwi@technologist.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This isn't the best place for this question but, well, just privy e-mail me back with the answer. Thanks! If I own a.com, and I want to run a.a.com , b.a.com , and c.a.com on the same computer but for different web pages, how would I do it in FreeBSD? And would it cost extra for the domain name with all the a. and b. and c. 's ? Thanks -bahwi email- bahwi@technologist.com ICQ Name: bahwi UIN: 3328936 iChat Name: bahwi -EOF From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 19:40:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21552 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:40:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA21524; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:40:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from imp@village.org) Received: from harmony [10.0.0.6] by rover.village.org with esmtp (Exim 1.71 #1) id 0xvZyv-00050A-00; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:40:37 -0700 Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.8.8/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA22987; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:40:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199801230340.UAA22987@harmony.village.org> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator Cc: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Jan 1998 18:04:38 PST." <199801230204.SAA17663@kithrup.com> References: <199801230204.SAA17663@kithrup.com> Your message of "Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:28:08 -0700". <199801222028.NAA19088@harmony.village.org> Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:40:48 -0700 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <199801230204.SAA17663@kithrup.com> Sean Eric Fagan writes: : Please bear in mind there is a good chance that it will be released under a : "for non-commercial use only" license, in which case it won't be able to be on : the freebsd cdrom. Still. The press release said GPL. It also said that binaries were free for OEMs to redistribute. Warner From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 19:58:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22969 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:58:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from onyx.atipa.com (user24709@ns.atipa.com [208.128.22.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA22963 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:58:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from freebsd@atipa.com) Received: (qmail-queue invoked by uid 1018); 23 Jan 1998 04:05:42 -0000 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:05:42 -0700 (MST) From: Atipa X-Sender: freebsd@dot.ishiboo.com To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Miscr$oft Support policy Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I called up MS support today, and they answered the phone with the regular salutation: "Thanks for calling Microsoft. Can I get your credit card number please?" After instructing the "techincian" I was licensed as an OEM distributor, he told me I get free "callback" support. The funny thing is their "24-hour callback" policy: they call you back within 24 _working_ hours, or what ends up being up to 120 real life hours (over a weekend)! I am amazed this company can be so wildy successfull with no customer service ability whatsoever. Four days is an awfully long time to wait for support. Now I guess we can see what they mean when they say their product will be available in 2 months; they really 2 _working_ months (6 real)! Kevin From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 19:59:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23006 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:59:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from word.smith.net.au (vh1.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.122]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22984 for ; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:58:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@word.smith.net.au) Received: from word (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by word.smith.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA00934; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:21:26 +1030 (CST) Message-Id: <199801230351.OAA00934@word.smith.net.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Warner Losh cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:40:48 PDT." <199801230340.UAA22987@harmony.village.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:21:26 +1030 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In message <199801230204.SAA17663@kithrup.com> Sean Eric Fagan writes: > : Please bear in mind there is a good chance that it will be released under a > : "for non-commercial use only" license, in which case it won't be able to be on > : the freebsd cdrom. Still. > > The press release said GPL. It also said that binaries were free for > OEMs to redistribute. The press release said "in the tradition of the GPL", which could mean almost anything. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 20:05:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23398 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:05:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns2.cetlink.net (root@ns2.cetlink.net [209.54.54.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23375; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:05:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jak@cetlink.net) Received: from hot1.auctionfever.com (ts1-cltnc-54.cetlink.net [209.54.58.54]) by ns2.cetlink.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA20776; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:05:30 -0500 (EST) From: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) To: Warner Losh Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:06:07 GMT Message-ID: <34c82454.17691507@mail.cetlink.net> References: <199801230204.SAA17663@kithrup.com> Your message of "Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:28:08 -0700". <199801222028.NAA19088@harmony.village.org> <199801230340.UAA22987@harmony.village.org> In-Reply-To: <199801230340.UAA22987@harmony.village.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/16.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id UAA23380 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:40:48 -0700, Warner Losh wrote: >The press release said GPL. This is an interesting case of BSD vs. GPL. If Netscape used a BSD type license, Microsoft could take it and add improvements and hide the improvements. With GPL, they can still take it, but can't hide the improvements. At least not without getting sued by Netscape. So GPL is better for Netscape. John From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 20:31:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25456 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:31:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dyson.iquest.net (dyson.iquest.net [198.70.144.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25429; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:31:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11541; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:12:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from toor) Message-Id: <199801230412.XAA11541@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator In-Reply-To: <34c82454.17691507@mail.cetlink.net> from John Kelly at "Jan 23, 98 05:06:07 am" To: jak@cetlink.net (John Kelly) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:12:56 -0500 (EST) Cc: imp@village.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Kelly said: > On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:40:48 -0700, Warner Losh > wrote: > > >The press release said GPL. > > This is an interesting case of BSD vs. GPL. > > If Netscape used a BSD type license, Microsoft could take it and add > improvements and hide the improvements. With GPL, they can still take > it, but can't hide the improvements. At least not without getting > sued by Netscape. > > So GPL is better for Netscape. > I agree, in this case a GPLed Netscape is better for everyone. Since it is a complete work, and not likely to taint other software, it is probably not bad to use GPL. I would suggest specific relief from GPL regarding programming interface specs though. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@freebsd.org | it just makes you look stupid, jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 20:43:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA26307 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:43:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scanner.worldgate.com (scanner.worldgate.com [198.161.84.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA26285; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:43:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marcs@znep.com) Received: from znep.com (uucp@localhost) by scanner.worldgate.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with UUCP id VAA05665; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:42:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (marcs@localhost) by alive.znep.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03190; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:41:21 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:41:21 -0700 (MST) From: Marc Slemko To: Warner Losh cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator In-Reply-To: <199801230340.UAA22987@harmony.village.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Warner Losh wrote: > In message <199801230204.SAA17663@kithrup.com> Sean Eric Fagan writes: > : Please bear in mind there is a good chance that it will be released under a > : "for non-commercial use only" license, in which case it won't be able to be on > : the freebsd cdrom. Still. > > The press release said GPL. It also said that binaries were free for > OEMs to redistribute. It does _not_ say GPL. Read it very carefully. It says: >The company will handle free source distribution with a license >that allows source code modification and redistribution and provides >for free availability of source code versions, building on the >heritage of the GNU Public License (GPL), familiar to developers >on the Net. I would be suprised if they used the GPL as is. It is also true that the freely available source part of this announcement is nothing more than hype until it is done. "building on the heritage" could mean allowing somewhat similar things yet "building" a _new_ licence. There are also going to be some components that will almost certainly end up being stripped out due to licencing issues. That is, of course, hard to tell right now because who knows what 5.0 will be. It will probably have substantial changes. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 20:53:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27134 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:53:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (root@mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27110; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:53:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id XAA04654; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:51:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:53:17 -0500 (EST) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Marc Slemko cc: Warner Losh , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Marc Slemko wrote: > I would be suprised if they used the GPL as is. It is also true > that the freely available source part of this announcement is > nothing more than hype until it is done. "building on the heritage" > could mean allowing somewhat similar things yet "building" a _new_ > licence. I read it the same as you, and was just going back to read NETSCAPES FAQ again to make sure i read it right. The only place i saw reference to it using the GPL was in one of the many online news resources, either in wired, or tech web, etc.. But netscapes actual FAQ states that as you said above, it will be released on a license SIMILAR to GPL, But that the licensing won't be finalized until 5.0 is out. According to the FAQ anyway. And i'm guessing they stated GPL simply because it's probably more well known than saying "BSD license", or "Insert favorite license here". We won't know for sure until 5.0 is out though. -- ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.5 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.2 mQENAzPemUsAAAEH/06iF0BU8pMtdLJrxp/lLk3vg9QJCHajsd25gYtR8X1Px1Te gWU0C4EwMh4seDIgK9bzFmjjlZOEgS9zEgia28xDgeluQjuuMyUFJ58MzRlC2ONC foYIZsFyIqdjEOCBdfhH5bmgB5/+L5bjDK6lNdqD8OAhtC4Xnc1UxAKq3oUgVD/Z d5UJXU2xm+f08WwGZIUcbGcaonRC/6Z/5o8YpLVBpcFeLtKW5WwGhEMxl9WDZ3Kb NZH6bx15WiB2Q/gZQib3ZXhe1xEgRP+p6BnvF364I/To9kMduHpJKU97PH3dU7Mv CXk2NG3rtOgLTEwLyvtBPqLnbx35E0JnZc0k5YkABRO0JU9wZW4gU3lzdGVtcyA8 b3BzeXNAb3Blbi1zeXN0ZW1zLm5ldD4= =BBjp -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 21:36:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29835 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:36:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.volant.org (phoenix.volant.org [205.179.79.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id VAA29788; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:35:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from patl@phoenix.volant.org) From: patl@phoenix.volant.org Received: from asimov.phoenix.volant.org [205.179.79.65] by phoenix.volant.org with smtp (Exim 1.62 #1) id 0xvbmQ-00069e-00; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:35:50 -0800 Received: from localhost by asimov.phoenix.volant.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA27170; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:35:41 -0800 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:35:41 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: patl@phoenix.volant.org Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator To: dyson@FreeBSD.ORG cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199801230412.XAA11541@dyson.iquest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > John Kelly said: > > On Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:40:48 -0700, Warner Losh > > wrote: > > > > >The press release said GPL. Actually, it said something about "building on the heritage of the GPL..."; but that is another thread. > > This is an interesting case of BSD vs. GPL. > > > > If Netscape used a BSD type license, Microsoft could take it and add > > improvements and hide the improvements. With GPL, they can still take > > it, but can't hide the improvements. At least not without getting > > sued by Netscape. > > > > So GPL is better for Netscape. > > > I agree, in this case a GPLed Netscape is better for everyone. Since it > is a complete work, and not likely to taint other software, it is probably > not bad to use GPL. I would suggest specific relief from GPL regarding > programming interface specs though. Actually, there is one thing I would like to see it taint. (Given that the licence terms are similar enough to the GPL to include the tainting feature.) Imagine the scenario where Microsoft decides to incorporate some of this free code into IE. But wait - they claim that IE is part of the OS. That would taint the entire OS and require them to release the sources... I know, it will never happen; but we can dream... -Pat From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 22:45:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04891 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:45:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04858; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:45:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13537; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:45:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd013525; Thu Jan 22 23:45:48 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA23724; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:45:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199801230645.XAA23724@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator To: opsys@mail.webspan.net (Open Systems Networking) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:45:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: marcs@znep.com, imp@village.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Open Systems Networking" at Jan 22, 98 11:53:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I would be suprised if they used the GPL as is. It is also true > > that the freely available source part of this announcement is > > nothing more than hype until it is done. "building on the heritage" > > could mean allowing somewhat similar things yet "building" a _new_ > > licence. > > I read it the same as you, and was just going back to read NETSCAPES FAQ > again to make sure i read it right. The only place i saw reference to it > using the GPL was in one of the many online news resources, either in > wired, or tech web, etc.. The JAVA license (the original, not the current one) "built on the heritage of the GPL" while maintaining control in the hands of the licensor. I think they are idiots if they give up control of the browser/server interface. I expect them to retain editorial control on the "official releases". This is, in fact, only slightly more restricted than GPL, wherein the GPL code is maintained by a central repository. Cygnus proved that there is room for one (and *only* one) editorial source per GPL style product. I think that the JAVA license take advantage of this while recognizing that fact (though I think Sun screwed up bigtime when they changed the license terms to try an capitolize on the JAVA licensees). If you had control of the protocol clients used to talk to servers, and you were a server vendor, would you give up control of one end of the protocol? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 23:21:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07251 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:21:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07224; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:21:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA23417; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:28:11 -0800 Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:28:08 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: Terry Lambert cc: Open Systems Networking , marcs@znep.com, imp@village.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator In-Reply-To: <199801230645.XAA23724@usr08.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > The JAVA license (the original, not the current one) "built on the heritage > of the GPL" while maintaining control in the hands of the licensor. > > I think they are idiots if they give up control of the browser/server > interface. HTTP standard is pretty much out of their hands already (and never really was there). SSL, of course, was added by them, and more compatible version of encrypted HTTP and MD5 authentication rejected, but that was done in significantly less barbaric way than other things by the same people at the same time. > I expect them to retain editorial control on the "official releases". > This is, in fact, only slightly more restricted than GPL, wherein the > GPL code is maintained by a central repository. Cygnus proved that > there is room for one (and *only* one) editorial source per GPL style > product. Emacs - XEmacs - Mule (ok, last one is now going to merge with every of first two). And while not the most stable thing in the world, pgcc exists, as a separate gcc branch. > I think that the JAVA license take advantage of this while > recognizing that fact (though I think Sun screwed up bigtime when they > changed the license terms to try an capitolize on the JAVA licensees). > If you had control of the protocol clients used to talk to servers, and > you were a server vendor, would you give up control of one end of the > protocol? IMHO there is no control. Netscape long ago made a server-push extension for HTTP protocol. Netscape never really used that, never made it into any standard, and while server-push being useful for a lot of things, lack of servers that support it without eating a lot of resources made it near-to-unknown for most of people except for server-updating images. Do a lot of people here know that "multipart/x-mixed-replace" server push works on HTML documents and allows server-initiated update of them in browser? Of course, HTML is completely different story -- everybody remembers ugly creations of tags war, and now it's shifted to J*scripts/stylesheets war, but that's significantly less dangerous than proprietary extensions to protocols, randomly being added by competing vendors. -- Alex From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 22 23:25:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07655 for chat-outgoing; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:25:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wcc.wcc.net (wcc.wcc.net [208.6.232.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07635; Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:25:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from piquan@wcc.wcc.net) Received: from detlev.UUCP (newip54.wcc.net [206.104.247.54]) by wcc.wcc.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA21254; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:21:41 -0600 (CST) Received: (from joelh@localhost) by detlev.UUCP (8.8.8/8.8.7) id BAA00338; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:24:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joelh) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 01:24:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801230724.BAA00338@detlev.UUCP> To: imp@village.org CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199801230340.UAA22987@harmony.village.org> (message from Warner Losh on Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:40:48 -0700) Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.org References: <199801230204.SAA17663@kithrup.com> Your message of "Thu, 22 Jan 1998 13:28:08 -0700". <199801222028.NAA19088@harmony.village.org> <199801230340.UAA22987@harmony.village.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> Please bear in mind there is a good chance that it will be released >> under a "for non-commercial use only" license, in which case it >> won't be able to be on the freebsd cdrom. Still. > The press release said GPL. It also said that binaries were free for > OEMs to redistribute. The press release said that it would be in the heratige of the GPL. It did not say the license. Best, joelh -- Joel Ray Holveck - joelh@gnu.org - http://www.wp.com/piquan Fourth law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation - core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 23 06:24:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA04457 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:24:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA04432; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 06:24:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [194.198.43.36]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00731; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:23:00 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.6/8.8.6) id PAA15251; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:22:58 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19980123152258.00987@follo.net> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:22:58 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Alex Belits Cc: Terry Lambert , Open Systems Networking , marcs@znep.com, imp@village.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator References: <199801230645.XAA23724@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Alex Belits on Thu, Jan 22, 1998 at 11:28:08PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 22, 1998 at 11:28:08PM -0800, Alex Belits wrote: > > I expect them to retain editorial control on the "official releases". > > This is, in fact, only slightly more restricted than GPL, wherein the > > GPL code is maintained by a central repository. Cygnus proved that > > there is room for one (and *only* one) editorial source per GPL style > > product. > > Emacs - XEmacs - Mule (ok, last one is now going to merge with every of > first two). And while not the most stable thing in the world, pgcc exists, > as a separate gcc branch. For the emacs side of this: I don't think this has led to much good. It's just leading to more and more problems for developers and users alike. The presence of XEmacs has made some things enter FSF Emacs in a very rushed fashion, MULE being a good example of how badly that can turn out (the code is just hacked all through Emacs, with a significant slowdown as a result, and no way to disable it. In XEmacs, it is supposedly maintained as a 'clean cut') Eivind. From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 23 14:33:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23300 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:33:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from g0d.tbe.net (qmailq@g0d.net [208.192.6.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA23276 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:32:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jwb@g0d.tbe.net) Received: (qmail 14813 invoked by uid 1001); 23 Jan 1998 22:32:41 -0000 Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 17:32:30 -0500 (EST) From: "J. W. Brinkerhoff" To: hackers@FreeBSD.ORG cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator In-Reply-To: <34c82454.17691507@mail.cetlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, John Kelly wrote: > This is an interesting case of BSD vs. GPL. > > If Netscape used a BSD type license, Microsoft could take it and add > improvements and hide the improvements. With GPL, they can still take > it, but can't hide the improvements. At least not without getting > sued by Netscape. > > So GPL is better for Netscape. However, if I remember correctly the announcment said "GPL-Like" rather than the actual GPL license. So we will have to see exactly what Netscape deems to be similar to the GPL. - -jwb _____ ___ ___ |_ _| _ ) __| James W. Brinkerhoff | | | _ \ _| TBE Network Security Administrator |_| |___/___| TBE Internet Services - 973.835.9696 Key fingerprint = 0E DA 27 39 91 1E B6 29 A4 D2 5E E5 FD 3B F4 3C -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBNMkahaifyqXAOLcdAQGuawP/Q/hvgXiHqx1wqjDJNLrmgB+HsZHbOIU1 VLQW6bhuhc70zeCkyEJ4T6fDFYf9Nvo5ogI4IL4RZcJah+0cZWIELRswcDhGaMcl dpLQD3E5tapiamEVvqBL6+818kI/ZVWfWwXS9abUwCLTkwU96FxM8tsGa1MiKVMB q/I7waH36rI= =2qyK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 23 15:27:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27791 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:27:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA27782 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:27:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 16092 invoked by uid 1000); 23 Jan 1998 22:29:10 -0000 Message-ID: <19980123232910.26767@paert.tse-online.de> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 23:29:10 +0100 From: Andreas Braukmann To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Applixware 4.3.7 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.84 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, I bought the international release of 'Applixware 4.3.7 for Linux' just a few hours ago. Although I didn't know if it would work under FreeBSD-current, I couldn't resist buying it because of the very special price (119,00DM / ca. $66) from SUSE (famous linux-supplier). The installation was a breeze - just a few 'rpm2cpio [...] | cpio -iduv' commands. I was quite astonished, that I even didn't have to 'brand' the linux-elf binaries? The performance seems to be reasonable - should be on a dual PPro system :), but StarOffice is the best counter-example. Regards, Andreas -- /// TSE TeleService GmbH | Gsf: Arne Reuter | /// Hovestrasse 14 | Andreas Braukmann | We do it with /// D-48351 Everswinkel | HRB: 1430, AG WAF | FreeBSD/SMP /// ------------------------------------------------------------------- /// PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key /// Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 23 16:14:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01826 for chat-outgoing; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wcc.wcc.net (wcc.wcc.net [208.6.232.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01684 for ; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from piquan@wcc.wcc.net) Received: from detlev.UUCP (ppp118.wcc.net [208.6.232.118]) by wcc.wcc.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id SAA27476; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:10:11 -0600 (CST) Received: (from joelh@localhost) by detlev.UUCP (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA02703; Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:13:29 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from joelh) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:13:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199801240013.SAA02703@detlev.UUCP> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Netscape free software? From: Joel Ray Holveck Reply-to: joelh@gnu.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org rms noticed a bit on the Netscape news bulletins that may imply limited redistribution of Communicator, at least in modified form. ------- Start of forwarded message ------- From: Richard Stallman Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:00:25 -0700 Subject: Netscape free software? People are saying that Netscape is releasing the source code under the GNU GPL. This may not be entirely accurate. They issued a press release saying they are releasing source code, and it cites the GNU GPL, but it does not actually say that they are going to use the GNU GPL as their new distribution terms. It appears that they will not. >From http://www.internetnews.com/prod-news/1998/01/2204-free.html: Netscape said it also plans to allow qualified partners to create a customized version of Netscape Navigator or Netscape Communicator for redistribution to users. If this is true, it implies that users will not in general have the freedom to distribute modified versions, which means that the program will not be free software. If so, this is not the momentous occasion that it appeared to be. It could still benefit the free software movement greatly in various ways, but we will have to make a sustained effort to educate people about the difference between what Netscape is doing and real free software. Meanwhile we still need to finish the GNU web browser, E-scape. On the other hand, perhaps Netscape really will make their browser free software. We can still hope so, and if they don't do this at first, we can urge them to do it later. ------- End of forwarded message ------- -- Joel Ray Holveck - joelh@gnu.org - http://www.wp.com/piquan Fourth law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi sendmail: segmentation violation - core dumped From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 24 10:51:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03178 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:51:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send1a.yahoomail.com (send1a.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA03168 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:51:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from giffunip@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19980124185050.19513.rocketmail@send1a.yahoomail.com> Received: from [168.176.3.46] by send1a; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:50:50 PST Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:50:50 -0800 (PST) From: Pedro Giffuni Reply-To: pgiffuni@fps.biblos.unal.edu.co Subject: More about Netscape To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, the code is not out yet and the community is preparing for the new code release: http://www.openscape.org/ If I find time I'll port the plugin development kit in netscape's site..but I suspect netscape will require it's own branch in the ports tree :-). cheers, Pedro. == --- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve ! http://www.FreeBSD.org _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 24 15:22:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA21914 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:22:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21903 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:22:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA11509; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:22:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd011503; Sat Jan 24 16:22:02 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA10882; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:21:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199801242321.QAA10882@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator To: abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (Alex Belits) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:21:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, opsys@mail.webspan.net, marcs@znep.com, imp@village.org In-Reply-To: from "Alex Belits" at Jan 22, 98 11:28:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I think they are idiots if they give up control of the browser/server > > interface. > > HTTP standard is pretty much out of their hands already (and never > really was there). SSL, of course, was added by them, and more compatible > version of encrypted HTTP and MD5 authentication rejected, but that was > done in significantly less barbaric way than other things by the same > people at the same time. MIME, Multipart/Replace doesn't work on Internet Explorer. There are other examples. I think NetScape dominates the HTML standard; mostly because they have clever people thinking about how to improve the protocl, and they pay these people to do that. Ass opposed to havving some form of committee making the suggestions and decisions. > > I expect them to retain editorial control on the "official releases". > > This is, in fact, only slightly more restricted than GPL, wherein the > > GPL code is maintained by a central repository. Cygnus proved that > > there is room for one (and *only* one) editorial source per GPL style > > product. > > Emacs - XEmacs - Mule (ok, last one is now going to merge with every of > first two). And while not the most stable thing in the world, pgcc exists, > as a separate gcc branch. I've used Cygnus products. I like Cygnus producs. And EMACS, you're no Cygnus product. The reason there are two versions of EMACS is the reason there are three BSD's and many Linux distributions, twofold: 1) They aren't working in the same improvement space 2) They are engaged in actively preventing inclusion of both source bases in one for territorial reasons. This is admittedly a problem in a volunteer project, where the first is caused by there not being enough like-minded people to do the work without editorial/ego issues, and the second is because the reasons for the participation are largely ego, and since there are not enough people, the people who are there are engaged in crisis management, not planning. It's a nice catch-22. But like JAVA, Netscape will certainly be maintaining a source repository, exercising editorial control on it, and productizing for their "Pro" version. This is like Eudora Lite, with source code. In that sense, there is room for one "Cygnus": Netscape itself. > Do a > lot of people here know that "multipart/x-mixed-replace" server push works > on HTML documents and allows server-initiated update of them in browser? I certainly do; I use it. Explorer can't compete... > Of course, HTML is completely different story -- everybody remembers > ugly creations of tags war, and now it's shifted to J*scripts/stylesheets > war, but that's significantly less dangerous than proprietary extensions > to protocols, randomly being added by competing vendors. That's the good thing about Netscape being in it for money instead of ego: they can *plan* instead of just responding to crises -- "Oh no, we need something to do XXX!" "Just hack it in!" "No way, we are professionals". Etc. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 24 15:34:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22710 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:34:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22679; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:34:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24641; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:34:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd024616; Sat Jan 24 16:34:00 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA11301; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:33:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199801242333.QAA11301@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Free netscape - good or bad ? To: avalon@coombs.anu.edu.au (Darren Reed) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:33:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, danny@panda.hilink.com.au, AdamT@smginc.com, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG, sef@kithrup.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199801231527.HAA10770@hub.freebsd.org> from "Darren Reed" at Jan 24, 98 02:14:32 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I beg to differ. If Netscape no longer participate in the product, > then that is good for Microsoft - the Netscape browser becomes yet > another shareware/freeware product with no real support, etc. > > Granted not everyone thinks like that but some people DO. You guys all need to go to the NetScape site, and read their whole roadmap (if you can read a 300 page Novel in an hour without speed-reading, it should take you about 15 minutes). After that, you will know that they plan to contribute engineering resources, maintain a seperate "Pro" product, like Eudora does (implies productization/stabilization passes), and distribute "In the spirit of the GPL". That last could mean anything from "Artistic License, but not GPL itself", to Sun JAVA-stlye license (the old, good one, not the new, ugly one), To a BSD style license (unlikely; they would have to trust MS to obey "not invented here" -- or they could let MS take the code, and then sieze full editorial control). I wonder how this will impact other less free browsers? I know of at least one that was gaining marketshare on both NS and MS that will probably be FUD'ed if not actually hurt by the prospect. Oh, yeah. The code is not due to be put up for FTP until March 31st; if anyone was expecting "next Monday", they will be disappointed; I'd say they have a little internal strife over licensing terms and techniques they will use to leverage the code to settle on before they will go public. The delay makes a JAVA-style or "Free for non-commercial use" style license extremely likely, IMO. Now, can we move this thread to chat? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 24 16:27:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26621 for chat-outgoing; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:27:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us [207.33.75.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26612 for ; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:27:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from abelits@phobos.illtel.denver.co.us) Received: from localhost (abelits@localhost) by phobos.illtel.denver.co.us (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id QAA01396; Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:36:34 -0800 Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:36:34 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Belits To: Terry Lambert cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, opsys@mail.webspan.net, marcs@znep.com, imp@village.org Subject: Re: Mike Shaver: Netscape gives away source code for Communicator In-Reply-To: <199801242321.QAA10882@usr04.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Terry Lambert wrote: > > HTTP standard is pretty much out of their hands already (and never > > really was there). SSL, of course, was added by them, and more compatible > > version of encrypted HTTP and MD5 authentication rejected, but that was > > done in significantly less barbaric way than other things by the same > > people at the same time. > > MIME, Multipart/Replace doesn't work on Internet Explorer. Of course -- it's an example of netscape extension that was left supported only in their browser, and still didn't give any advantage for their server. > There are > other examples. > > I think NetScape dominates the HTML standard; mostly because they > have clever people thinking about how to improve the protocl, and > they pay these people to do that. Ass opposed to havving some form > of committee making the suggestions and decisions. HTML (I don't call it "protocol") for some time was being extended by Netscape, however I don't think, they did a job better than a committee -- HTML 3.0 was designed by committee, HTML 3.2 was "fixed" to accomodate Netscape and MSIE extensions, and 3.0 looks like significantly more clean and well-designed one while 3.2 has all signs of being an afterthoght standard that just included things made in "code, then think" manner. I don't believe that an infinite number of coders in infinite time can make all nice design decisions that can be made with their products. It takes a competent designer to make one, and sometimes committee can replace good designer better than coders that think only about implementing some functionality before deadlines. And companies now too often force each other to work in a rush, make design mess and put it into their standards. > > > I expect them to retain editorial control on the "official releases". > > > This is, in fact, only slightly more restricted than GPL, wherein the > > > GPL code is maintained by a central repository. Cygnus proved that > > > there is room for one (and *only* one) editorial source per GPL style > > > product. > > > > Emacs - XEmacs - Mule (ok, last one is now going to merge with every of > > first two). And while not the most stable thing in the world, pgcc exists, > > as a separate gcc branch. > > I've used Cygnus products. I like Cygnus producs. And EMACS, you're > no Cygnus product. I am referring to all GPL'ed products, not just Cygnus ones. I don't think that it was good to have those Emacs branches, but certainly they appeared not because of an evil will of their developers -- there was a reason why original Emacs didn't satisfy them, and since rms while being the person who has the control over original Emacs, didn't accept their changes, branches emerged (details about commercial products and packages omitted). I believe, this is a question of how the maintainer's policy of accepting contributed changes corresponds to maintainer's development capapcity, demand for improvement and existence of clear design goal in maintainer's and contributors' heads. The more messy is the project, the more arrogant and less productive is the maintainer and the more is the demand for the improvement, the more is the probability of branching. Cygnus produces enough improvements and has sane design to compensate for their problems, so their products don't branch. Linus/... accept large number of contributed changes while maintaining acceptable design, so Linux kernel doesn't branch except extreme cases like STREAMS. Linux libc was a large branch of glibc, even though some cygnus people worked on it, and now when glibc 2 is mostly usable, it painfully but with visible progress replacing linux libc 5, so that branch will be eliminated soon (hey, they even fixed ther major screwup with header files that completely breaks my programs before I have found it ;-). Linux distributions maintainers don't accept each other's packaging system or various internal standards, and have to often adapt existing products by themselves to include in distributions, so Linux distributions branch (other reasons like packaging commercial products in commercial distribution bundles are omitted as insignificant -- it's not hard to "synchronize" the rest if there was the agreement on it). All *BSD have large amount of messy (but usable) code, less willing to accept contributions, especially to kernel, are inflexible in accepting even simple and necessary changes in userspace part of base distributions (ex: LPRng and FreeBSD), and users' demands are high. So they branch (again, BSD license encourages branching in commercial version, but it's not that significant compared to more "natural" reasons). > The reason there are two versions of EMACS is the reason there are > three BSD's and many Linux distributions, twofold: > > 1) They aren't working in the same improvement space Yeah, this is why some my code works on OpenBSD and crashes FreeBSD :-( > 2) They are engaged in actively preventing inclusion of both > source bases in one for territorial reasons. That's too -- the same as my "arrogance" reason. > This is admittedly a problem in a volunteer project, where the first > is caused by there not being enough like-minded people to do the work > without editorial/ego issues, and the second is because the reasons > for the participation are largely ego, and since there are not enough > people, the people who are there are engaged in crisis management, > not planning. > > It's a nice catch-22. But like JAVA, Netscape will certainly be > maintaining a source repository, exercising editorial control on > it, and productizing for their "Pro" version. This is like Eudora > Lite, with source code. > > In that sense, there is room for one "Cygnus": Netscape itself. There is a room, but I'm afraid, there is nobody in that room to do what Cygnus does. > > Do a > > lot of people here know that "multipart/x-mixed-replace" server push works > > on HTML documents and allows server-initiated update of them in browser? > > I certainly do; I use it. Explorer can't compete... So do I, but since servers (including Netscape one) have trouble implementing it, most of people don't, and it doesn't help netscape mmuch to have this feature. Again, MSIE most likely doesn't have this feature for the reason of forcing developers to use Microsoft-only things, like ActiveX controls, which are even less efficient for that simple purpose, but promote products that can't be made by Netscape. > > Of course, HTML is completely different story -- everybody remembers > > ugly creations of tags war, and now it's shifted to J*scripts/stylesheets > > war, but that's significantly less dangerous than proprietary extensions > > to protocols, randomly being added by competing vendors. > > That's the good thing about Netscape being in it for money instead > of ego: they can *plan* instead of just responding to crises -- "Oh > no, we need something to do XXX!" "Just hack it in!" "No way, we > are professionals". Etc. Netscape does that even without a problem hanging over them -- I don't believe, recent wave of Communicator-on-FreeBSD problems wasn't prevented if configuration management was well designed. I hope, they won't continue the same things with more "resources" available, but the need for clean design will increase in this situation, and I have doubts about them being capable of doing it in that situation well. I will like to be proven wrong in that. -- Alex