From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 12 15:20:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19417 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:20:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19338 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 15:19:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id AAA16166; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:19:19 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:19:18 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Frank Pawlak" Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jasone@canonware.com, smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com Subject: Re: Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders) References: <199807040703.BAA02533@softweyr.com> <19980704165817.D358@freebie.lemis.com> <980704165941.ZM2483@darkstar.connect.com> <19980705102445.L358@freebie.lemis.com> <199807110349.VAA28411@lariat.lariat.org> <980712035135.ZM14948@darkstar.connect.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 13 Jul 1998 00:19:16 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Frank Pawlak"'s message of "Sun, 12 Jul 1998 03:51:35 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id PAA19413 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Frank Pawlak" writes: > On Jul 11, 9:07pm, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > Microsoft ships the standard BSD ftp client with Windows 95 and NT > > (probably 98 too, I haven't checked). If you search the archives for > > the beginning of this thread, you'll find I posted an article with the > > SCCS ID extracted from the Windows 95 ftp client. > Are you absolutely sure that your information is correct? Can you > provide the goods to prove that this is true? Do I have to spell it out? Install Windows 95 or NT, copy ftp.exe (it's in /windows/ftp.exe on Windows 95, and /winnt/system32/ftp.exe on Windows NT if memory serves) over to a Unix box, type 'strings ftp.exe | grep -i copyright', and see for yourself. You can grep for "@(#)" to find the SCCS ID if it's there (I seem to recall it is, but I may be wrong) DES -- One two, one two, one two. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 12 16:10:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28366 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:10:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail-gw.pacbell.net (mail-gw.pacbell.net [206.13.28.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28268 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:09:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jackv@pacbell.net) Received: from jackv.pacbell.net (ppp-206-170-1-143.snfc21.pacbell.net [206.170.1.143]) by mail-gw.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id QAA28045 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: "Jack Velte" From: "Jack Velte" Cc: Subject: Re: Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 1998 16:04:22 -0700 Message-ID: <01bdade9$6866e180$8f01aace@jackv.pacbell.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Do I have to spell it out? Install Windows 95 or NT, copy ftp.exe >(it's in /windows/ftp.exe on Windows 95, and /winnt/system32/ftp.exe >on Windows NT if memory serves) over to a Unix box, type 'strings >ftp.exe | grep -i copyright', and see for yourself. You can grep for >"@(#)" to find the SCCS ID if it's there (I seem to recall it is, but >I may be wrong) this is windows 95, /windows/ftp.exe file: ftp.exe !This program cannot be run in DOS mode. .text `.data .rsrc @.reloc WSOCK32.dll USER32.dll CRTDLL.dll ADVAPI32.dll KERNEL32.dll @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. All rights reserved. ascii script name = %s ftp tcp entered main entered lostpeer input line %s entered cmdscanner entered getcmd entered makeargv entered slurpstring %-*s entered help entered call dpE tenex image binary entered setpeer TYPE %s TYPE %s %s argv %d = %s argc == %d entered settype type entered setbinary STOR APPE entered put %s:%s entered mput RETR entered get entered mget NLST entered remglob entered onoff entered status entered setbell entered sethash entered setverbose entered setprompt entered setglob entered setdebug CWD %s entered cd entered lcd argc = %d DELE %s entered delete entered mdelete RNTO %s RNFR %s entered renamefile LIST TYPE A entered ls output to local-file: entered mls ACCT %s PASS %s USER %s entered user XPWD entered pwd XMKD %s entered makedir XRMD %s entered removedir entered quote HELP %s HELP entered rmthelp entered quit QUIT entered disconnect %s %s? entered confirm entered copystr %s: %s entered globulize glob: file name %s glob file = %s glob path = %s glob arg = %s entered glob /C argv %d = %s argc = %d arguments = entered shell COMSPEC sDecimal Control Panel\International entered hookup (none) entered login entered command entered dcommand entered waitfor getreply return == %d entered getreply empty return value == %d entered empty ABOR %s %s entered sendrequest entered recvrequest PORT %d,%d,%d,%d,%d,%d entered initconn entered dataconn entered acceptconn entered ptransfer verbose user trace status send rmdir rename remotehelp recv quote quit pwd put prompt open mput mls mkdir mget mdir mdelete literal lcd help hash glob get disconnect dir debug delete close bye bell append CONOUT$ CONIN$ %1:TLOOK returned %2!d!%0 %1:TLI Error %2!d! poll failed%0 Timeout occurred t_look returned %1!d! The network is down Not super user GATE Table alloc error%0 GATE Table read error%0 Smart Gateway: %1%0 Network Address Gateway Address Redirect Life %1!d! mins%0 %1!ld! mins%0 Unable to alloc conn block Server port %1!d! in use! Unable to allocate packet %1 packet, foreign host %2, foreign port %3!d!: Contents in hex bytes and characters: Unable to open connection Unable to fork daemon Received bad packet. Length = %1!d! Received bad opcode. Opcode = %1!d! Error on server : %1 Received packet with unexpected block number. Block number = %1!d! Received bad initial opcode. Opcode = %1!d! Bad transfer mode '%1' specified Option %1!c! is not valid Option %1!c! requires an additional argument error getting console input handle, code %1!d! error getting console output handle, code %1!d! error getting console mode, code %1!d! error setting console mode, code %1!d! Write to ConsoleOut error == %1!ld! Read from ConsoleIn error == %1!ld! error restoring console mode, code %1!d! ftp: error allocating memory ftp: ftp/tcp: unknown service Transfers files to and from a computer running an FTP server service (sometimes called a daemon). Ftp can be used interactively. FTP [-v] [-d] [-i] [-n] [-g] [-s:filename] [host] -v Suppresses display of remote server responses. -n Suppresses auto-login upon initial connection. -i Turns off interactive prompting during multiple file transfers. -d Enables debugging. -g Disables filename globbing (see GLOB command). -s:filename Specifies a text file containing FTP commands; the commands will automatically run after FTP starts. host Specifies the host name or IP address of the remote host to connect to. error opening script file %1 ftp> %0 ?Ambiguous command ?Invalid command Not connected. Commands may be abbreviated. Commands are: ?Ambiguous help command %1 ?Invalid help command %1 usage - < < - too deep < - open file failed: %0 Already connected to %1, use disconnect first. (to) %0 usage: %1 host-name [port] %1: bad port number-- %2 usage: %1 [%0 %1%2%0 Using %1 mode to transfer files. %1: unknown mode We only support %1 mode, sorry. We only support %1 format, sorry. We only support %1 structure, sorry. (local-file) %0 %1 local-file remote-file (remote-file) %0 (local-files) %0 %1 local-files %1 remote-file [ local-file ] (remote-files) %0 %1 remote-files can't find list of remote files, oops Failed to unlink workfile Connected to %1. Type: %1; %0 Verbose: %1; Bell: %2; Prompting: %3; Globbing: %4 Debugging: %1; Hash mark printing: %2 Use of PORT cmds: %1 Bell mode %1. Packet tracing %1. Hash mark printing %1%0 (%1!d! bytes/hash mark)%0 Verbose mode %1. Use of PORT cmds %1. Interactive mode %1. Globbing %1. Debugging %1. (remote-directory) %0 %1 remote-directory %1 local-directory Local directory now %1 %1 remote-file (from-name) %0 %1 from-name to-name (to-name) %0 usage: %1 remote-directory local-file %1 remote-files local-file Try again later%0 (username) %0 usage: %1 username [password] [account] Account: %0 Login failed. (directory-name) %0 %1 directory-name (command line to send) %0 usage: %1 line-to-send error reading password %1: Unknown host. ftp: socket%0 The network is down ftp: bind%0 ftp: setsockopt (SO_KEEPALIVE)%0 ftp: connect%0 ftp: getsockname%0 User (%1:%2): %0 ---> %0 No control connection for command%0 Connection closed by remote host. %1: not a plain file.%0 netout%0 Error opening local file %1 ftp get%0 netin%0 ftp: setsockopt (resuse address)%0 ftp: setsockopt (ignored)%0 ftp: listen%0 ftp: accept%0 Password: %0 On%0 Off%0 Out of memory File not found%0 Out of memory%0 ftp: WSAStartup:%0 append to a file%0 set ascii transfer type%0 beep when command completed%0 set binary transfer type%0 change remote working directory%0 connect to remote tftp%0 delete remote file%0 toggle debugging mode%0 list contents of remote directory%0 terminate ftp session%0 toggle metacharacter expansion of local file names%0 toggle printing `#' for each buffer transferred%0 print local help information%0 change local working directory%0 nlist contents of remote directory%0 delete multiple files%0 list contents of multiple remote directories%0 get multiple files%0 make directory on the remote machine%0 nlist contents of multiple remote directories%0 send multiple files%0 toggle use of PORT cmd for each data connection%0 force interactive prompting on multiple commands%0 print working directory on remote machine%0 terminate ftp session and exit%0 send arbitrary ftp command%0 receive file%0 get help from remote server%0 rename file%0 remove directory on the remote machine%0 send one file%0 escape to the shell%0 show current status%0 toggle packet tracing%0 set file transfer type%0 send new user information%0 toggle verbose mode%0 obey command file%0 %1!ld! bytes received in %0 %1!ld! bytes sent in %0 seconds (%0 Kbytes/sec) exe\ftp.DBG .exe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 12 19:25:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22642 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:25:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22637 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:25:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (kashyyyk-1-184.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.133.58]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id VAA19140; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:25:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA00874; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:25:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980713022540.ZM873@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:25:40 +0000 In-Reply-To: "Jack Velte" "Re: Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders)" (Jul 12, 4:04pm) References: <01bdade9$6866e180$8f01aace@jackv.pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: "Jack Velte" Subject: Re: Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders) Cc: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks Jack, You have saved me the trouble of installing Microslop just to verify that they are mentioning the Cal Berkeley copyright. Cheers, Frank On Jul 12, 4:04pm, Jack Velte wrote: > Subject: Re: Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and mul > >Do I have to spell it out? Install Windows 95 or NT, copy ftp.exe > >(it's in /windows/ftp.exe on Windows 95, and /winnt/system32/ftp.exe > >on Windows NT if memory serves) over to a Unix box, type 'strings > >ftp.exe | grep -i copyright', and see for yourself. You can grep for > >"@(#)" to find the SCCS ID if it's there (I seem to recall it is, but > >I may be wrong) > > > this is windows 95, /windows/ftp.exe > > file: ftp.exe > !This program cannot be run in DOS mode. > .text > `.data > .rsrc > @.reloc > WSOCK32.dll > USER32.dll > CRTDLL.dll > ADVAPI32.dll > KERNEL32.dll > @(#) Copyright (c) 1983 The Regents of the University of California. > All rights reserved. > ascii > script name = %s > ftp > tcp > entered main > entered lostpeer > input line %s > entered cmdscanner > entered getcmd > entered makeargv > entered slurpstring > %-*s > entered help > entered call > dpE > tenex > image > binary > entered setpeer > TYPE %s > TYPE %s %s > argv %d = %s > argc == %d > entered settype > type > entered setbinary > STOR > APPE > entered put > %s:%s > entered mput > RETR > entered get > entered mget > NLST > entered remglob > entered onoff > entered status > entered setbell > entered sethash > entered setverbose > entered setprompt > entered setglob > entered setdebug > CWD %s > entered cd > entered lcd argc = %d > DELE %s > entered delete > entered mdelete > RNTO %s > RNFR %s > entered renamefile > LIST > TYPE A > entered ls > output to local-file: > entered mls > ACCT %s > PASS %s > USER %s > entered user > XPWD > entered pwd > XMKD %s > entered makedir > XRMD %s > entered removedir > entered quote > HELP %s > HELP > entered rmthelp > entered quit > QUIT > entered disconnect > %s %s? > entered confirm > entered copystr > %s: %s > entered globulize > glob: file name %s > glob file = %s > glob path = %s > glob arg = %s > entered glob > /C > argv %d = %s > argc = %d > arguments = > entered shell > COMSPEC > sDecimal > Control Panel\International > entered hookup > (none) > entered login > entered command > entered dcommand > entered waitfor > getreply return == %d > entered getreply > empty return value == %d > entered empty > ABOR > %s %s > entered sendrequest > entered recvrequest > PORT %d,%d,%d,%d,%d,%d > entered initconn > entered dataconn > entered acceptconn > entered ptransfer > verbose > user > trace > status > send > rmdir > rename > remotehelp > recv > quote > quit > pwd > put > prompt > open > mput > mls > mkdir > mget > mdir > mdelete > literal > lcd > help > hash > glob > get > disconnect > dir > debug > delete > close > bye > bell > append > CONOUT$ > CONIN$ > %1:TLOOK returned %2!d!%0 > %1:TLI Error %2!d! > poll failed%0 > Timeout occurred > t_look returned %1!d! > The network is down > Not super user > GATE Table alloc error%0 > GATE Table read error%0 > Smart Gateway: %1%0 > Network Address Gateway Address Redirect Life > %1!d! mins%0 > %1!ld! mins%0 > Unable to alloc conn block > Server port %1!d! in use! > Unable to allocate packet > %1 packet, foreign host %2, foreign port %3!d!: > Contents in hex bytes and characters: > Unable to open connection > Unable to fork daemon > Received bad packet. Length = %1!d! > Received bad opcode. Opcode = %1!d! > Error on server : %1 > Received packet with unexpected block number. Block number = %1!d! > Received bad initial opcode. Opcode = %1!d! > Bad transfer mode '%1' specified > Option %1!c! is not valid > Option %1!c! requires an additional argument > error getting console input handle, code %1!d! > error getting console output handle, code %1!d! > error getting console mode, code %1!d! > error setting console mode, code %1!d! > Write to ConsoleOut error == %1!ld! > Read from ConsoleIn error == %1!ld! > error restoring console mode, code %1!d! > ftp: error allocating memory > ftp: ftp/tcp: unknown service > Transfers files to and from a computer running an FTP server service > (sometimes called a daemon). Ftp can be used interactively. > FTP [-v] [-d] [-i] [-n] [-g] [-s:filename] [host] > -v Suppresses display of remote server responses. > -n Suppresses auto-login upon initial connection. > -i Turns off interactive prompting during multiple file > transfers. > -d Enables debugging. > -g Disables filename globbing (see GLOB command). > -s:filename Specifies a text file containing FTP commands; the > commands will automatically run after FTP starts. > host Specifies the host name or IP address of the remote > host to connect to. > error opening script file %1 > ftp> %0 > ?Ambiguous command > ?Invalid command > Not connected. > Commands may be abbreviated. Commands are: > ?Ambiguous help command %1 > ?Invalid help command %1 > usage - < > < - too deep > < - open file failed: %0 > Already connected to %1, use disconnect first. > (to) %0 > usage: %1 host-name [port] > %1: bad port number-- %2 > usage: %1 [%0 > %1%2%0 > Using %1 mode to transfer files. > %1: unknown mode > We only support %1 mode, sorry. > We only support %1 format, sorry. > We only support %1 structure, sorry. > (local-file) %0 > %1 local-file remote-file > (remote-file) %0 > (local-files) %0 > %1 local-files > %1 remote-file [ local-file ] > (remote-files) %0 > %1 remote-files > can't find list of remote files, oops > Failed to unlink workfile > Connected to %1. > Type: %1; %0 > Verbose: %1; Bell: %2; Prompting: %3; Globbing: %4 > Debugging: %1; Hash mark printing: %2 > Use of PORT cmds: %1 > Bell mode %1. > Packet tracing %1. > Hash mark printing %1%0 > (%1!d! bytes/hash mark)%0 > Verbose mode %1. > Use of PORT cmds %1. > Interactive mode %1. > Globbing %1. > Debugging %1. > (remote-directory) %0 > %1 remote-directory > %1 local-directory > Local directory now %1 > %1 remote-file > (from-name) %0 > %1 from-name to-name > (to-name) %0 > usage: %1 remote-directory local-file > %1 remote-files local-file > Try again later%0 > (username) %0 > usage: %1 username [password] [account] > Account: %0 > Login failed. > (directory-name) %0 > %1 directory-name > (command line to send) %0 > usage: %1 line-to-send > error reading password > %1: Unknown host. > ftp: socket%0 > The network is down > ftp: bind%0 > ftp: setsockopt (SO_KEEPALIVE)%0 > ftp: connect%0 > ftp: getsockname%0 > User (%1:%2): %0 > ---> %0 > No control connection for command%0 > Connection closed by remote host. > %1: not a plain file.%0 > netout%0 > Error opening local file %1 > ftp get%0 > netin%0 > ftp: setsockopt (resuse address)%0 > ftp: setsockopt (ignored)%0 > ftp: listen%0 > ftp: accept%0 > Password: %0 > On%0 > Off%0 > Out of memory > File not found%0 > Out of memory%0 > ftp: WSAStartup:%0 > append to a file%0 > set ascii transfer type%0 > beep when command completed%0 > set binary transfer type%0 > change remote working directory%0 > connect to remote tftp%0 > delete remote file%0 > toggle debugging mode%0 > list contents of remote directory%0 > terminate ftp session%0 > toggle metacharacter expansion of local file names%0 > toggle printing `#' for each buffer transferred%0 > print local help information%0 > change local working directory%0 > nlist contents of remote directory%0 > delete multiple files%0 > list contents of multiple remote directories%0 > get multiple files%0 > make directory on the remote machine%0 > nlist contents of multiple remote directories%0 > send multiple files%0 > toggle use of PORT cmd for each data connection%0 > force interactive prompting on multiple commands%0 > print working directory on remote machine%0 > terminate ftp session and exit%0 > send arbitrary ftp command%0 > receive file%0 > get help from remote server%0 > rename file%0 > remove directory on the remote machine%0 > send one file%0 > escape to the shell%0 > show current status%0 > toggle packet tracing%0 > set file transfer type%0 > send new user information%0 > toggle verbose mode%0 > obey command file%0 > %1!ld! bytes received in %0 > %1!ld! bytes sent in %0 > seconds (%0 > Kbytes/sec) > exe\ftp.DBG > .exe > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Jack Velte To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 12 19:32:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA23757 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:32:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA23750 for ; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 19:32:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (kashyyyk-1-184.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.133.58]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id VAA19698; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:32:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA00883; Sun, 12 Jul 1998 21:32:59 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980713023253.ZM880@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:32:53 +0000 In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?_dag-erli=40ifi=2Euio=2Eno_=28Dag-Erling_Coida?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?n_Sm=F8rgrav_=29?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?________=22Re=3A_Microsoft's_breaches_of_contract_=28was?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3A_FBSD_license_and___multiple_copyright_holders=29=22_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=28Jul_13=2C_12=3A19am=29?= References: <199807040703.BAA02533@softweyr.com> <19980704165817.D358@freebie.lemis.com> <980704165941.ZM2483@darkstar.connect.com> <19980705102445.L358@freebie.lemis.com> <199807110349.VAA28411@lariat.lariat.org> <980712035135.ZM14948@darkstar.connect.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav_?=) Subject: Re: Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders) Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jasone@canonware.com, smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id TAA23753 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jul 13, 12:19am, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Subject: Re: Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and mul > "Frank Pawlak" writes: > > On Jul 11, 9:07pm, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > > Microsoft ships the standard BSD ftp client with Windows 95 and NT > > > (probably 98 too, I haven't checked). If you search the archives for > > > the beginning of this thread, you'll find I posted an article with the > > > SCCS ID extracted from the Windows 95 ftp client. > > Are you absolutely sure that your information is correct? Can you > > provide the goods to prove that this is true? > > Do I have to spell it out? Install Windows 95 or NT, copy ftp.exe > (it's in /windows/ftp.exe on Windows 95, and /winnt/system32/ftp.exe > on Windows NT if memory serves) over to a Unix box, type 'strings > ftp.exe | grep -i copyright', and see for yourself. You can grep for > "@(#)" to find the SCCS ID if it's there (I seem to recall it is, but > I may be wrong) > > DES > -- > One two, one two, one two. >-- End of excerpt from Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav Yes, sometimes you do have to spell it out. Thank you. Frank To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 13 00:37:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24769 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:37:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA24749 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:36:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yvd9G-0002Vb-00; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:35:46 +0200 Message-ID: <19980713093546.B9621@cityip.co.za> Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:35:46 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: BIND goes commercial? Mail-Followup-To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat References: <19980710115906.N16065@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980710115906.N16065@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Fri, Jul 10, 1998 at 11:59:06AM +0930 X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 at 11:59 SAT, Greg Lehey wrote: > Check out > > http://www.sunworld.com/swol-07-1998/swol-07-bind.html?070898a Here's a from-the-horse's-mouth nanog posting, that I _think_ I might've posted to -chat before: http://www.merit.net/mail.archives/html/nanog/msg03290.html -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 13 00:49:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA25866 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA25859 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 00:49:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id JAA15195; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:48:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:48:41 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Frank Pawlak" Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jasone@canonware.com, smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com Subject: Re: Microsoft's breaches of contract (was: FBSD license and multiple copyright holders) References: <199807040703.BAA02533@softweyr.com> <19980704165817.D358@freebie.lemis.com> <980704165941.ZM2483@darkstar.connect.com> <19980705102445.L358@freebie.lemis.com> <199807110349.VAA28411@lariat.lariat.org> <980712035135.ZM14948@darkstar.connect.com> <980713023253.ZM880@darkstar.connect.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 13 Jul 1998 09:48:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Frank Pawlak"'s message of "Mon, 13 Jul 1998 02:32:53 +0000" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA25862 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Frank Pawlak" writes: > On Jul 13, 12:19am, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > Do I have to spell it out? Install Windows 95 or NT, copy ftp.exe > Yes, sometimes you do have to spell it out. Thank you. Sorry I bit your head off :) DES -- One two, one two, one two. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 13 18:17:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22448 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:17:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gutenberg.uoregon.edu (gutenberg.uoregon.edu [128.223.56.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22439 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:17:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by gutenberg.uoregon.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA01627; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 18:21:01 -0700 From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: Brandon Lockhart cc: Jeremy Domingue , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disgruntled Linux User... questions about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (response moved to -chat) On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Brandon Lockhart wrote: > First of all, I do not recommend Gateway 2k for server's. Get a COMPAQ or > HP or SUN. RISC is the way to go. Compaq isn't any more RISC than Gateway unless you mean Alpha (in which case you should specify that). And then you are into commercial Unix (which I like and use every day, but it's not what he asked for) or Linux or one of the other BSDs. FreeBSD (that is what this list is about, right?) doesn't run on Alpha, Sparc or PA-RISC... Sean -- Sean Harding sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu|"It's not a habit, it's cool. http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~sharding/ | I feel alive." NeXTMail OK! | --k's Choice To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 13 21:48:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16627 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:48:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA16622 for ; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 21:48:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA12935; Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:48:06 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 22:48:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807140448.WAA12935@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Disgruntled Linux User... questions about FreeBSD From: Wes Peters To: brandon@engulf.net, sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu Cc: jer@hughes.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: References: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id VAA16623 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded Sean Harding (sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) saying: % Compaq isn't any more RISC than Gateway unless you mean Alpha (in which % case you should specify that). And then you are into commercial Unix % (which I like and use every day, but it's not what he asked for) or % Linux or one of the other BSDs. FreeBSD (that is what this list is about, % right?) doesn't run on Alpha, Sparc or PA-RISC... ^^^^^^^^^^^^ YET! Keep your ears crossed! Oh, fingers, I meant FINGERs! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 02:04:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA09392 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:04:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gutenberg.uoregon.edu (gutenberg.uoregon.edu [128.223.56.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA09380 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:03:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by gutenberg.uoregon.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA02492; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:07:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:07:40 -0700 From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: Wes Peters cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disgruntled Linux User... questions about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199807140448.WAA12935@obie.softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Wes Peters wrote: > My hidden microphone recorded Sean Harding (sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) > saying: > % Linux or one of the other BSDs. FreeBSD (that is what this list is about, > % right?) doesn't run on Alpha, Sparc or PA-RISC... > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > YET! > > Keep your ears crossed! Oh, fingers, I meant FINGERs! Believe me, I am! Actually, I really would like to see a PowerPC port. I run Linux on my Powermac and FreeBSD on my PC. I'd love to run FreeBSD on both...Hopefully someone with more time *and* programming skill than me will become interested and get it going... Alpha would be cool too. I'm quite happy with Solaris on my Sparcs tho... Sean -- Sean Harding sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu|"It's not a habit, it's cool. http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~sharding/ | I feel alive." NeXTMail OK! | --k's Choice To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 06:02:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29979 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:02:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from second.dialup.access.net (lsmarso.dialup.access.net [166.84.254.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA29974 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 06:02:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from larry@marso.com) Received: (from larry@localhost) by second.dialup.access.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02267 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:01:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from larry) Message-ID: <19980714090114.A2189@marso.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:01:14 -0400 From: "Larry S. Marso" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD, Amazon.com & the X-files Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just typed FreeBSD into the search engine at Amazon.com: Top matches for this search: The Complete Freebsd - Greg Lehey; Paperback The X-Files Book of the Unexplained Vol 1 - Jane Goldman; Hardcover The X Files Book of the Unexplained Vol 2 - Jane Goldman; Hardcover Best regards -- Larry S. Marso larry@marso.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 07:17:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08246 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:17:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bright.ny.otec.com (bright.ny.otec.com [209.3.16.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA08241 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 07:17:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@hotjobs.com) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by bright.ny.otec.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA07280; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:16:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from bright@hotjobs.com) X-Authentication-Warning: bright.ny.otec.com: bright owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:16:45 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein X-Sender: bright@bright.ny.otec.com To: Brandon Lockhart cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disgruntled Linux User... questions about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 13 Jul 1998, Brandon Lockhart wrote: > First of all, I do not recommend Gateway 2k for server's. Get a COMPAQ or > HP or SUN. RISC is the way to go. > > Second of all, no offense, but I don't need to hear your life story about > your *server*, you could have just asked the questions. > was it nessesary to flame an experianced sysadmin who basically was praising freebsd? freebsd has also been proven quite nice as server platform. a flame and then praise for commercial systems hardly seems appropriate on the freebsd mailing lists. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 09:19:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25540 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:19:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25533 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:19:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id JAA18075; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:19:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 09:19:03 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: "Larry S. Marso" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, Amazon.com & the X-files In-Reply-To: <19980714090114.A2189@marso.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darn.. we are busted. -- Yan Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Larry S. Marso wrote: >I just typed FreeBSD into the search engine at Amazon.com: > >Top matches for this search: > > The Complete Freebsd - Greg Lehey; Paperback > > The X-Files Book of the Unexplained Vol 1 - Jane > Goldman; Hardcover > > The X Files Book of the Unexplained Vol 2 - Jane > Goldman; Hardcover > >Best regards >-- >Larry S. Marso >larry@marso.com > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 10:20:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05715 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:20:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (dynamic35.pm06.sf3d.best.com [209.24.235.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05708 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:20:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03208; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:19:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19980714101950.B3187@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 10:19:50 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jan B. Koum " , "Larry S. Marso" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD, Amazon.com & the X-files Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <19980714090114.A2189@marso.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:19:03AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:19:03AM -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Darn.. we are busted. > > -- Yan > > Jan Koum jkb@best.com | "Turn up the lights; I don't want > www.FreeBSD.org -- The Power to Serve | to go home in the dark." > > On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Larry S. Marso wrote: > > >I just typed FreeBSD into the search engine at Amazon.com: > > > >Top matches for this search: > > > > The Complete Freebsd - Greg Lehey; Paperback > > > > The X-Files Book of the Unexplained Vol 1 - Jane > > Goldman; Hardcover > > > > The X Files Book of the Unexplained Vol 2 - Jane > > Goldman; Hardcover > > Greg's new book; FreeBSD on the grassy knoll by The Lone Gunmen Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 13:03:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05064 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:03:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zephyr.cybercom.net (zephyr.cybercom.net [209.21.146.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA05025; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 13:03:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from shell1.cybercom.net (ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net [209.21.136.6]) by zephyr.cybercom.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA27261; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (ksmm@localhost) by shell1.cybercom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA14358; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:03:14 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell1.cybercom.net: ksmm owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 16:03:12 -0400 (EDT) From: The Classiest Man Alive X-Sender: ksmm@shell1.cybercom.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Did you guys read Jordan's editorial on the free software movement? It's at http://editorials.freshmeat.net/jordan980713. Makes some valid points, and apparently serves as good therapy for Jordan, who's obviously had his fair share of frustration since 1993. I guess the Red Hat logo in the lower right corner of the page stands as a testament to his commitment towards unity in free software. :-) K.S. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 19:21:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27204 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:21:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27187; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:21:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:21:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807150221.TAA27187@hub.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-test Subject: postmaster makes an annoying test message Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org folks on chat, please forgive this intrusion. folks on test, you subscribed...you get test messages ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 19:23:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27450 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:23:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27433; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:23:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:23:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807150223.TAA27433@hub.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-test Subject: postmaster sends annoying test message Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org folks on chat, please forgive this intrusion. folks on test, you subscribed...you get test messages ;) jmb ps...mail insists on a space after a "-c" switch before the arg.....arghhhh. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 19:24:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27631 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:24:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA27613; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:24:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:24:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807150224.TAA27613@hub.freebsd.org> To: freebsd-test Subject: postmaster sends annoying test message, again Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org folks on chat, please forgive this intrusion. folks on test, you subscribed...you get test messages ;) jmb ps...mail insists on a space after a "-c" switch before the arg.....arghhhh. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 19:55:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00893 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:55:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00867 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 19:54:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01824; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:54:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980714215435.49428@futuresouth.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:54:35 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: STOP THE BLOODY CROSS POSTING! References: <27613.900463042@time.cdrom.com> <199807150208.WAA29904@xxx.video-collage.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <199807150208.WAA29904@xxx.video-collage.com>; from Mikhail Teterin on Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:08:43PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:08:43PM -0400, Mikhail Teterin woke me up to tell me: > > IMHO, this should be handled by mailing list software. Make sure > no-one gets the same message ID twice is rather simple, since all > the data is available to the mailing list software. This should > also solve the problem of people CC-ing responses directly -- if > the address is already in CC or TO -- do not include it. No, I like it as is... That way, I get a copy in my inbox (the to/cc), and another copy in the -folder, so I see the one to me, and have the copy in my archives. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 20:01:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01818 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:01:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.video-collage.com (root@www.video-collage.com [206.15.171.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01810 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:01:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi@xxx.video-collage.com) Received: from xxx.video-collage.com (mi@xxx.video-collage.com [199.232.254.68]) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06101 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:02:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mi@localhost) by xxx.video-collage.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id XAA05191 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:01:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi) From: Mikhail Teterin Message-Id: <199807150301.XAA05191@xxx.video-collage.com> Subject: Re: STOP THE BLOODY CROSS POSTING! In-Reply-To: <19980714215435.49428@futuresouth.com> from "Matthew D. Fuller" at "Jul 14, 98 09:54:35 pm" To: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:01:27 -0400 (EDT) X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7w hJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" IMHO, this should be handled by mailing list software. Make sure => no-one gets the same message ID twice is rather simple, since all => the data is available to the mailing list software. This should => also solve the problem of people CC-ing responses directly -- if => the address is already in CC or TO -- do not include it. = =No, I like it as is... That way, I get a copy in my inbox (the to/cc), =and another copy in the -folder, so I see the one to me, and =have the copy in my archives. Well, then you can modify your filing rules to file the message into both places. There is no need for the mail servers to rush two copies to you, is there? Please, CC me your response (if any) as I'm not subscribed to -char. Yours, -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 20:02:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02086 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:02:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02075 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:02:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA19517; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:31:52 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980715123151.Z15083@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:31:51 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Mikhail Teterin Cc: Subject: Re: STOP THE BLOODY CROSS POSTING! References: <27613.900463042@time.cdrom.com> <199807150208.WAA29904@xxx.video-collage.com> <19980714215435.49428@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980714215435.49428@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 09:54:35PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 14 July 1998 at 21:54:35 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > > On Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:08:43PM -0400, Mikhail Teterin woke me up to tell me: >> >> IMHO, this should be handled by mailing list software. Make sure >> no-one gets the same message ID twice is rather simple, since all >> the data is available to the mailing list software. This should >> also solve the problem of people CC-ing responses directly -- if >> the address is already in CC or TO -- do not include it. > > No, I like it as is... That way, I get a copy in my inbox (the to/cc), > and another copy in the -folder, so I see the one to me, and > have the copy in my archives. I agreee that it's important to copy people personally on messages that concern them, but that's not the issue here. The original flamefest^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdiscussion was about copying multiple lists. I think Mikhail summed it up well: we have a technical problem, and as long as it exists people should avoid sending messages to multiple lists, even if it would otherwise make sense. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 20:03:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02124 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02106; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:03:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807150303.UAA02106@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: last test message? To: test Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:03:14 -0700 (PDT) Cc: test, chat X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org is this the last test message? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 20:11:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02784 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:11:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02778; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:11:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807150311.UAA02778@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Stopping the bloody cross posting. In-Reply-To: <19980715123151.Z15083@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 15, 98 12:31:51 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:11:25 -0700 (PDT) Cc: fullermd@futuresouth.com, mi@video-collage.com, jkh (Jordan K. Hubbard), chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > I agreee that it's important to copy people personally on messages > that concern them, but that's not the issue here. The original > flamefest^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdiscussion was about copying multiple > lists. I think Mikhail summed it up well: we have a technical > problem, and as long as it exists people should avoid sending messages > to multiple lists, even if it would otherwise make sense. well.....we have a 90% percent solution to this problem. as it stands now, if you send email to more than 2 FreeBSD mailing lists (such as test@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org and test@freebsd.org again) the email will be returned to you with a little note saying "dont to that!" we allow 2 lists so that you can move a discussion from one list to another. hopefully this will ease the problems that we have had with this issue. jmb ps. no.....dont everyone test it! ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 20:17:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03510 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:17:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03497; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:16:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA19536; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:46:46 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980715124645.A15083@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:46:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: fullermd@futuresouth.com, mi@video-collage.com, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. References: <19980715123151.Z15083@freebie.lemis.com> <199807150311.UAA02778@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807150311.UAA02778@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:11:25PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 14 July 1998 at 20:11:25 -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> I agreee that it's important to copy people personally on messages >> that concern them, but that's not the issue here. The original >> flamefest^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hdiscussion was about copying multiple >> lists. I think Mikhail summed it up well: we have a technical >> problem, and as long as it exists people should avoid sending messages >> to multiple lists, even if it would otherwise make sense. > > well.....we have a 90% percent solution to this problem. > > as it stands now, if you send email to more than 2 FreeBSD > mailing lists (such as test@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org > and test@freebsd.org again) the email will be returned > to you with a little note saying "dont to that!" Ah. So that's what you've been doing. > we allow 2 lists so that you can move a discussion from > one list to another. > > hopefully this will ease the problems that we have had > with this issue. Well, it should stop the complaining, but it's a workaround, not a solution. If I have a message that is of interest to, say, -questions, -hackers, -newbies and -chat, I should be able to send it, and the message should be delivered to each member of each list *once only*. That goal should be within reach, at least for people who aren't also on sublists. You could even handle the sublist case at the receiver's end: before delivering a message locally, check if he hasn't already received it. Now that's theory. In practice, of course, none of this stuff exists (and don't look to me to write it). But that doesn't make it a bad idea. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 20:20:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03848 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03812; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:20:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807150320.UAA03812@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. In-Reply-To: <19980715124645.A15083@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Jul 15, 98 12:46:45 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:20:17 -0700 (PDT) Cc: fullermd@futuresouth.com, mi@video-collage.com, jkh@hub.freebsd.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > Ah. So that's what you've been doing. > ;) thoes test messages get ugly dont they :) > > we allow 2 lists so that you can move a discussion from > > one list to another. > > > > hopefully this will ease the problems that we have had > > with this issue. > > Well, it should stop the complaining, but it's a workaround, not a > solution. If I have a message that is of interest to, say, > -questions, -hackers, -newbies and -chat, I should be able to send it, > and the message should be delivered to each member of each list *once > only*. That goal should be within reach, at least for people who > aren't also on sublists. You could even handle the sublist case at > the receiver's end: before delivering a message locally, check if he > hasn't already received it. you're absolutely right! wow...first vinum and now this! > > Now that's theory. In practice, of course, none of this stuff exists > (and don't look to me to write it). But that doesn't make it a bad > idea. ohhh....well we still got vinum at least ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 20:27:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04543 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:27:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from joshua.enteract.com (joshua.enteract.com [207.229.129.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA04531 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:27:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djhoward@joshua.enteract.com) Received: (qmail 21097 invoked by uid 1032); 15 Jul 1998 03:26:57 -0000 Message-ID: <19980714222657.A19323@enteract.com> Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:26:57 -0500 From: dannyman To: Subject: Re: Disgruntled Linux User... questions about FreeBSD Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dale Ghent on Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:57:49PM -0400 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 08:57:49PM -0400, Dale Ghent wrote: > On Tue, 14 Jul 1998, Tom wrote: > > | > PC supped up. I am talking about a rack mount server, a REAL server. > | > | cdrom.com is a rack mount server. > > ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.jpg Not a "real" server, far too tidy ... -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 20:29:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA04834 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pobox.com (jaresh-67.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.81.195]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA04827 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:29:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Message-Id: <199807150329.UAA04827@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 23275 invoked from network); 14 Jul 1998 22:31:25 -0500 Received: from localhost (HELO pobox.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 14 Jul 1998 22:31:25 -0500 To: Greg Lehey cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , fullermd@futuresouth.com, mi@video-collage.com, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:46:45 +0930." <19980715124645.A15083@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:31:24 -0500 From: Jon Hamilton Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <19980715124645.A15083@freebie.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey wrote: } On Tuesday, 14 July 1998 at 20:11:25 -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: } > we allow 2 lists so that you can move a discussion from } > one list to another. } > } > hopefully this will ease the problems that we have had } > with this issue. } } Well, it should stop the complaining, but it's a workaround, not a } solution. If I have a message that is of interest to, say, } -questions, -hackers, -newbies and -chat, I should be able to send it, } and the message should be delivered to each member of each list *once } only*. That goal should be within reach, at least for people who } aren't also on sublists. You could even handle the sublist case at } the receiver's end: before delivering a message locally, check if he } hasn't already received it. It's not clear that the "once only" part is universally desirable. It may be a good default, but there are no doubt people out there who will want one copy for each list. You're trying to solve a social behavior problem with technology, and are doomed to fail (or at least to have less than 100% success). -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 20:34:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05801 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:34:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.video-collage.com (root@www.video-collage.com [206.15.171.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05788 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:34:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi@xxx.video-collage.com) Received: from xxx.video-collage.com (mi@xxx.video-collage.com [199.232.254.68]) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA06796 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:35:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mi@localhost) by xxx.video-collage.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id XAA08882 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:34:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi) From: Mikhail Teterin Message-Id: <199807150334.XAA08882@xxx.video-collage.com> Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. In-Reply-To: <199807150330.XAA06767@www.video-collage.com> from Jon Hamilton at "Jul 14, 98 10:31:24 pm" To: Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:34:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7w hJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08293 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:56:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08277; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:56:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id NAA19631; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:25:59 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980715132558.C15083@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 13:25:58 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Jon Hamilton Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , fullermd@futuresouth.com, mi@video-collage.com, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. References: <19980715124645.A15083@freebie.lemis.com> <199807150329.MAA00907@allegro.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807150329.MAA00907@allegro.lemis.com>; from Jon Hamilton on Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:31:24PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 14 July 1998 at 22:31:24 -0500, Jon Hamilton wrote: > > In message <19980715124645.A15083@freebie.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Tuesday, 14 July 1998 at 20:11:25 -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > >>> we allow 2 lists so that you can move a discussion from >>> one list to another. >>> >>> hopefully this will ease the problems that we have had >>> with this issue. >> >> Well, it should stop the complaining, but it's a workaround, not a >> solution. If I have a message that is of interest to, say, >> -questions, -hackers, -newbies and -chat, I should be able to send it, >> and the message should be delivered to each member of each list *once >> only*. That goal should be within reach, at least for people who >> aren't also on sublists. You could even handle the sublist case at >> the receiver's end: before delivering a message locally, check if he >> hasn't already received it. > > It's not clear that the "once only" part is universally desirable. It > may be a good default, but there are no doubt people out there who will > want one copy for each list. You're trying to solve a social behavior > problem with technology, and are doomed to fail (or at least to have less > than 100% success). Correct. We can see the vestiges of that at the beginning of the text you quoted. If we take the approach of delivering once only, do we make an exception if the recipient is named explicitly on the To: or Cc: lines? I suppose the technical answer is "that's for him to decide when he signs up for the list". But let's solve the first order problem first. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 21:11:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10490 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:11:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA10472; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from obie.softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA14890; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:11:18 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:11:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807150411.WAA14890@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Jordan's editorial at Freshmeat From: Wes Peters To: Cc: Reply-To: Wes Peters In-Reply-To: References: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mailer: BeatWare Mail-It 1.6 X-BeOS-Platform: Intel or clone Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id VAA10473 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My hidden microphone recorded The Classiest Man Alive (ksmm@threespace.com) saying: % Did you guys read Jordan's editorial on the free software movement? It's % at http://editorials.freshmeat.net/jordan980713/ . Makes some valid % points, and apparently serves as good therapy for Jordan, who's obviously % had his fair share of frustration since 1993. I guess the Red Hat logo % in the lower right corner of the page stands as a testament to his % commitment towards unity in free software. :-) Thanks for the pointer. Well done, Jordan. We should make each and every member of the -advocacy list go read this -- we need them on board with this philosophy as well. (Note: I've corrected the URL above, and the cross-posting to -advocacy is intentional AND IMPORTANT. You Advocates GO READ THIS! ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 21:13:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10728 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:13:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.video-collage.com (root@www.video-collage.com [206.15.171.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA10720 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:13:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi@xxx.video-collage.com) Received: from xxx.video-collage.com (mi@xxx.video-collage.com [199.232.254.68]) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA08680 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:14:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mi@localhost) by xxx.video-collage.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id AAA13072 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:13:06 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi) From: Mikhail Teterin Message-Id: <199807150413.AAA13072@xxx.video-collage.com> Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. In-Reply-To: from Tim Vanderhoek at "Jul 14, 98 10:02:36 pm" To: Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:13:05 -0400 (EDT) X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7w hJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" Those people can then apply their own technology and replicate messages => locally, I think. There is no technical nor human reason/justification => for the identical messages to be sent to the person more then once. =It's no inconvenience for you to remove dups based on message-ID. =For the other side, however, you seem to forget that the one and =only blessed field for filtering is Sender:, and last time I =checked, each Sender: field lists only one -list address. To =follow-through your suggestion, the Sender: field would need to =list multiple addresses... First, I do not see anything wrong with Sender listing multiples. Second, what's wrong with relying on To: and/or Cc:? As a matter of fact, a custom X-Something header can be introduced with all sorts of information needed for somebody's mail handling scripts. I just find it silly to duplicate messages on the hub, when they can easily be replicated by the receiver (if he/she wants to) for some sort of archiving. The Internet gets plenty of traffic from dummies already... -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 21:13:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA10757 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:13:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA10749; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:13:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03183; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:11:58 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980715141154.01595@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:11:55 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: Jon Hamilton , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , fullermd@futuresouth.com, mi@video-collage.com, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. References: <19980715124645.A15083@freebie.lemis.com> <199807150329.MAA00907@allegro.lemis.com> <19980715132558.C15083@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980715132558.C15083@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 01:25:58PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 01:25:58PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 14 July 1998 at 22:31:24 -0500, Jon Hamilton wrote: > > > > In message <19980715124645.A15083@freebie.lemis.com>, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Tuesday, 14 July 1998 at 20:11:25 -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > >>> we allow 2 lists so that you can move a discussion from > >>> one list to another. > >>> > >>> hopefully this will ease the problems that we have had > >>> with this issue. > >> > >> Well, it should stop the complaining, but it's a workaround, not a > >> solution. If I have a message that is of interest to, say, > >> -questions, -hackers, -newbies and -chat, I should be able to send it, If it really were relevant to that many lists, it should go out just once, through freebsd-announce. If it's not appropriate for -announce, then it's not appropriate for more than two lists. In fact, I have yet to see a message that I regard as being appropriate for as many as two lists. > >> and the message should be delivered to each member of each list *once > >> only*. That goal should be within reach, at least for people who > >> aren't also on sublists. You could even handle the sublist case at > >> the receiver's end: before delivering a message locally, check if he > >> hasn't already received it. There's no way you could make this work for me. I subscribe to the different lists under different user names, a few lists for each user. How are you going to stop me getting pissed off by your lazy-thinking crossposts? You can't. > > It's not clear that the "once only" part is universally desirable. It > > may be a good default, but there are no doubt people out there who will > > want one copy for each list. You're trying to solve a social behavior > > problem with technology, and are doomed to fail (or at least to have less > > than 100% success). > > Correct. We can see the vestiges of that at the beginning of the text > you quoted. If we take the approach of delivering once only, do we > make an exception if the recipient is named explicitly on the To: or > Cc: lines? I suppose the technical answer is "that's for him to > decide when he signs up for the list". But let's solve the first > order problem first. Regarding the cc to individuals, this is a practice which has become the habit of thousands of subscribers over a period of years. If that were changed, you would potentially be asking thousands of people to reconfigure their systems and/or change their habits. If you subscribe to mailing lists from a variety of sources, you'll see that they all have their own quirks and habits which they hold dearly. Those of the FreeBSD lists are well known and predictable, particularly the habit of sending a cc. But most important of all, this is the preferred familiar method of the majority of those who contribute most to the FreeBSD project. That alone is good enough to cancel all arguments against it for me. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 21:32:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13037 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:32:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.video-collage.com (root@www.video-collage.com [206.15.171.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13031 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:32:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi@xxx.video-collage.com) Received: from xxx.video-collage.com (mi@xxx.video-collage.com [199.232.254.68]) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10134 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:33:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mi@localhost) by xxx.video-collage.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id AAA15295 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:32:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi) From: Mikhail Teterin Message-Id: <199807150432.AAA15295@xxx.video-collage.com> Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. In-Reply-To: <19980715141154.01595@welearn.com.au> from Sue Blake at "Jul 15, 98 02:11:55 pm" To: Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:32:44 -0400 (EDT) X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7w hJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" ? -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 21:43:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14940 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:43:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.video-collage.com (root@www.video-collage.com [206.15.171.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14935 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:43:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi@xxx.video-collage.com) Received: from xxx.video-collage.com (mi@xxx.video-collage.com [199.232.254.68]) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA10600 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:44:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mi@localhost) by xxx.video-collage.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id AAA16033 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:43:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi) From: Mikhail Teterin Message-Id: <199807150443.AAA16033@xxx.video-collage.com> Subject: Re: STOP THE BLOODY CROSS POSTING! In-Reply-To: from Tim Vanderhoek at "Jul 14, 98 09:59:04 pm" To: Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 00:43:19 -0400 (EDT) X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7w hJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" IMHO, this should be handled by mailing list software. Make sure => no-one gets the same message ID twice is rather simple, since all = =This is easy. If you only want to "get" the same message ID =once, then filter your own messages based on message ID. Goto =line 320 or so of procmailex(5). Yes, but by then the message already ate up twice or more of the Internet bandwidth then it had to... =Even more importantly, if a message is cross-posted, then it =SHOULD belong in all the -lists it is cross-posted to. It does belong to. And so it says in all (almost all) the headers. You just get one copy... If you wish to store it in several places, your scripts will have plenty of data to select the proper folders. =Consider: I may only scan the -current list today because I'm =short on time. Unfortunately an important notice was =cross-posted to -announce and -current, but the stupid =mailing-list software only sent me the copy that was posted to =-current. The message will not say it is only posted to current. It will list all of the mailing lists. Now, my suggestion does not mean to encourage crossposting. It will only make handling of crosspostings more intelligent. =Cross-posting merely encourages over-use of the mailing-lists, even =with such mailing-list software as you envision. By encouraging =cross-posting, your subscription to -current will slowly become a [...] Wait, wait. I did not suggest to _encourage_ crossposting... But if something happens to belong (in poster's opinion) to -multimedia, -mobile, and -current there should be a way to send it there without annoying people who are subscribed to all three. -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 21:51:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA16007 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:51:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15998 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 21:51:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03324; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:51:17 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980715145114.15816@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:51:14 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. References: <19980715141154.01595@welearn.com.au> <199807150432.AAA15295@xxx.video-collage.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199807150432.AAA15295@xxx.video-collage.com>; from Mikhail Teterin on Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 12:32:44AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 12:32:44AM -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > Sue Blake once stated: > > =If it really were relevant to that many lists, it should go out just > =once, through freebsd-announce. If it's not appropriate for -announce, > =then it's not appropriate for more than two lists. In fact, I have yet > =to see a message that I regard as being appropriate for as many as two > =lists. > > This is a practical observation, and does not eliminate the > theoretical possibility of the need to use more then two lists at > a time. Theoretically, if it's that important there's nothing stopping you sending the message twice yourself. A small imposition relative to the number of people who you wish to take time to read it. > =There's no way you could make this work for me. I subscribe to the > =different lists under different user names, a few lists for each user. > =How are you going to stop me getting pissed off by your lazy-thinking > =crossposts? You can't. > > Well, if you say in advance "there's no way you could make this > work for me" about _anything_ I would not even try. Please, consider > changing your tone, those are not my "lazy-thinking crossposts"... No, actually that was a response to Greg's words and I think he's used to my spontaneous outbursts by now, while the "you" was a hypothetical somebody, rather than directly mentioning those who have been spamming several lists recently with incessant chatter about my-thing-is-bigger-than-your-thing. When this happens it is usually lack of forethought or lack of awareness of how to play ball. > What about "the ability to innovate" ;-> ? Innovate? Do you mean like using a highly individualistic quoting character that my mailer doesn't understand, and including an X-Face: header? I could be more innovative too if I wanted to stand out, but I'd be reluctant to force it on others. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 22:00:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17007 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:00:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA16988 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03353; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:59:49 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980715145946.53921@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:59:46 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Wes Peters Cc: Subject: Re: Jordan's editorial at Freshmeat References: <199807150411.WAA14890@obie.softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199807150411.WAA14890@obie.softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:11:18PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 10:11:18PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > Thanks for the pointer. Well done, Jordan. We should make each and > every member of the -advocacy list go read this -- we need them on > board with this philosophy as well. Actually this started with a thread in -advocacy. Eventually someone passed the info on to -chat. Sometimes (but this particular case is different) I see threads "moved to -chat" and can't tell where they came from. I've sometimes thought it'd help avoid this kind of confusion if those doing the move said where the thread been shifted from as well. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 22:26:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19898 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:26:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19893 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:26:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1659.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.123]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA05029; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:25:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA04137; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:26:17 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:26:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Mikhail Teterin cc: Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. In-Reply-To: <199807150413.AAA13072@xxx.video-collage.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Mikhail Teterin wrote: [...] > From: Mikhail Teterin > Message-Id: <199807150413.AAA13072@xxx.video-collage.com> > Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. [...] > First, I do not see anything wrong with Sender listing multiples. > Second, what's wrong with relying on To: and/or Cc:? Well, for starters because your message that I'm responding to right now does not include any To: or Cc: headers. Further reasons: extra special logic to recognize chat@FreeBSD.ORG as being the same as freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG. Repeat for any other aliases that might appear. Consider a message x-posted to -chat and -alpha. I am not subscribed to -alpha, however, my filter sees -alpha in the Cc: header. Since my filter automatically recognizes new (FreeBSD) mailing-lists and performs certain actions based on this, it will think I've subscribed to -alpha. Not Good. Even worse if someone Cc:'s a mythical mailing list. This is still going to screw people who subscribe each -list to a different address. Eg. -hackers to freebsd-hackers@time.cdrom.com. Finally, those headers are not altogether reliable. > I just find it silly to duplicate messages on the hub, when they > can easily be replicated by the receiver (if he/she wants to) for > some sort of archiving. The Internet gets plenty of traffic from > dummies already... This isn't a problem when a message is only posted to the proper -lists. I certainly don't feel guilty for the few resources it costs hub to send me the few _proper_ crossposts. Those crossposts are a drop in the relative bucket. Really, your argument about resources is bogus. The only way that this becomes an issue is if cross-posting becomes rampant, and if cross-posting becomes rampant, we may as well forget the whole idea of distinct -lists and just create one "freebsd-mumalist" to which all messages are posted. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 14 22:43:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21959 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:43:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21937 for ; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:43:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1659.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.123]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA03601; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:43:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA04151; Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:43:25 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 23:43:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: Mikhail Teterin cc: Subject: Re: STOP THE BLOODY CROSS POSTING! In-Reply-To: <199807150443.AAA16033@xxx.video-collage.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 15 Jul 1998, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > Wait, wait. I did not suggest to _encourage_ crossposting... But > if something happens to belong (in poster's opinion) to -multimedia, > -mobile, and -current there should be a way to send it there without > annoying people who are subscribed to all three. Here we have, I believe, the crux of the argument. If something happens to belong in -multimedia, -mobile, and -current (and poster's opinion had damn better agree with the opinion of the list charters on this), then it should be posted to all three. There should be a way of doing the above without annoying people who are subscribed to all three. At this point we realize that the technology implementing this has been around for a long time. You're only remaining complaint is about the amount of resources used, and frankly, I just don't buy that. Not if cross-posting is used appropriately. The kind of cross-posting that I believe Jordan was complaining about is the kind of cross-posting that is used only to gain a larger audience. Without checking, I'm quite confident that all mailing-list policies allow for cross-posting when it really is appropriate. Because of your initial reply to Jordan's message, you certainly seemed to be encouraging cross-posting. Forgive me on that wrong assumption. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 01:47:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15284 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:47:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15276; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:47:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id KAA00693; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:47:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:47:00 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , fullermd@futuresouth.com, mi@video-collage.com, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. References: <19980715123151.Z15083@freebie.lemis.com> <199807150311.UAA02778@hub.freebsd.org> <19980715124645.A15083@freebie.lemis.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 15 Jul 1998 10:46:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:46:45 +0930" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > Well, it should stop the complaining, but it's a workaround, not a > solution. If I have a message that is of interest to, say, > -questions, -hackers, -newbies and -chat, I should be able to send it, > and the message should be delivered to each member of each list *once > only*. If I got only one copy of every mail sent to several lists instead of one copy for every list I'm on, it would totally screw up threading and sorting. DES (likes it the way it is) -- One two, one two, one two. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 01:50:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15674 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:50:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15601; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 01:49:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id KAA00893; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:49:50 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 10:49:50 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: Subject: Re: last test message? References: <199807150303.UAA02106@hub.freebsd.org> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 15 Jul 1998 10:49:49 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Jonathan M. Bresler"'s message of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 20:03:14 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" writes: > is this the last test message? There Is Always One More Test Message. DES -- One two, one two, one two. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 05:54:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA13626 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:54:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zed.ludd.luth.se (zed.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA13612 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 05:54:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pantzer@speedy.ludd.luth.se) Received: from speedy.ludd.luth.se (speedy.ludd.luth.se [130.240.16.164]) by zed.ludd.luth.se (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA18970 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:54:24 +0200 Message-Id: <199807151254.OAA18970@zed.ludd.luth.se> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.1 12/23/97 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disgruntled Linux User... questions about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message from dannyman of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 22:26:57 CDT." <19980714222657.A19323@enteract.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:54:24 +0200 From: Mattias Pantzare Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > | > PC supped up. I am talking about a rack mount server, a REAL server. > > | > > | cdrom.com is a rack mount server. > > > > ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.jpg > > Not a "real" server, far too tidy ... A real server is not rack mountable, it has its own rack. You turn it on by writing power on on the console. Something like ftp.luth.se (down at the moment :-( ) http://www.ludd.luth.se/gallery/ludd3/1/ftp.luth.se_mark_IV-4.jpg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 08:27:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03026 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:27:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03022; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:27:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:27:41 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807151527.IAA03022@hub.freebsd.org> To: test@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: 3 lists Cc: freebsd-test@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org test test and chat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 08:43:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05248 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:43:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA05242; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:43:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:43:37 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807151543.IAA05242@hub.freebsd.org> To: test@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-test@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: 4 lists Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 2 in to 2 in cc 1 long form in each 1 short form in each To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 09:10:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09106 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:10:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09098; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:10:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807151610.JAA09098@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: To: and Cc: headers To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:10:33 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-test@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org some of you may have noticed that freebsd email was missing both the to: and the cc: headers for a period of about 6 hours last night. while adding code to prevent excessive cross-posting, i made a boo boo. everything should be okay now. thanks to all those who notified me of the problem. keep up the good work ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 09:40:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12380 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:40:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.ziplink.net (mi@kot.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.29.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12372 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:40:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi@rtfm.ziplink.net) Received: from rtfm.ziplink.net (mi@rtfm [199.232.255.52]) by localhost.ziplink.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00731 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:40:36 GMT (envelope-from mi@rtfm.ziplink.net) Received: (from mi@localhost) by rtfm.ziplink.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA00613 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:40:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikhail Teterin Message-Id: <199807151640.MAA00613@rtfm.ziplink.net> Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Coidan [Sm_rgrav]" at "Jul 15, 98 10:46:59 am" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:40:34 -0400 (EDT) X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7w hJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13567 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:55:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.ziplink.net (mi@kot.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.29.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13562 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 09:55:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi@rtfm.ziplink.net) Received: from rtfm.ziplink.net (mi@rtfm [199.232.255.52]) by localhost.ziplink.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA00758 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:55:01 GMT (envelope-from mi@rtfm.ziplink.net) Received: (from mi@localhost) by rtfm.ziplink.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA00679 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:55:01 -0400 (EDT) From: Mikhail Teterin Message-Id: <199807151655.MAA00679@rtfm.ziplink.net> Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. In-Reply-To: from "Tim Vanderhoek" at "Jul 14, 98 11:26:17 pm" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:55:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7w hJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" First, I do not see anything wrong with Sender listing multiples. => Second, what's wrong with relying on To: and/or Cc:? = =Well, for starters because your message that I'm responding to =right now does not include any To: or Cc: headers. No To:-header? So, majordomo removed it? Can you verify? I did not put anything into CC figuring you are subscribed to -chat. (I'm not, btw -- your CC are apreciated). Besides, a special X-Whatever header can contain anything that's neccessary. For example, "X-Majordomo-Lists: freebsd-chat openbsd-mobile" -- an artificical example where openbsd and freebsd lists are handled by the same server. This header will also contain only "official" list names, for your convinience. =Consider a message x-posted to -chat and -alpha. I am not =subscribed to -alpha, however, my filter sees -alpha in the Cc: =header. Since my filter automatically recognizes new (FreeBSD) =mailing-lists and performs certain actions based on this, it will =think I've subscribed to -alpha. Not Good. Even worse if =someone Cc:'s a mythical mailing list. Then your filter is broken -- it tries to archive anything (or anything coming from freebsd.org). Let's not discuss actual implementation, unless you are trying to prove making such a filter is _impossible_. BTW, AFAIK, this is how alt.* news groups are created -- anyone can make a new one by including it into Newsgroups header :) =This is still going to screw people who subscribe each -list to a =different address. Eg. -hackers to freebsd-hackers@time.cdrom.com. This can, actually, be used to force hub to send copies -- for those who want it and are willing to waste some (cheap) local storage. =Finally, those headers are not altogether reliable. Well, I'm not sure what you mean by this. => I just find it silly to duplicate messages on the hub, when they can => easily be replicated by the receiver (if he/she wants to) for some => sort of archiving. The Internet gets plenty of traffic from dummies => already... [...] =Really, your argument about resources is bogus. The only way that =this becomes an issue is if cross-posting becomes rampant, and if =cross-posting becomes rampant [...] It is a _problem_ only when it's rampant. But it is always an anoyance. And resource-consuming. Not just hub's CPU, but the Internet bandwidth, people's disks, people's modems, and people's time too. -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 11:25:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27502 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:25:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27494 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:25:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim@localhost.my.domain) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp7245.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.213]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA12079; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:24:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA18461; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:25:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980715122529.C18373@zappo> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 12:25:29 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Mikhail Teterin Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. References: <199807151655.MAA00679@rtfm.ziplink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807151655.MAA00679@rtfm.ziplink.net>; from Mikhail Teterin on Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 12:55:00PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 12:55:00PM -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: [...] > lists are handled by the same server. This header will also contain only > "official" list names, for your convinience. For your convenience, all messages contain a Message-id: header. Now, with great confidence and shutzpah, I urge you, please, use it! > Then your filter is broken -- it tries to archive anything (or anything > coming from freebsd.org). Let's not discuss actual implementation, No, it's not broken. It only grabs things the mailing-lists sends me. > =This is still going to screw people who subscribe each -list to a > =different address. Eg. -hackers to freebsd-hackers@time.cdrom.com. > > This can, actually, be used to force hub to send copies -- for those > who want it and are willing to waste some (cheap) local storage. I don't own my own domain and can't create email addresses at will. And no, I already rely on too many domains (freebsd.org, hwcn.org, and my own local ISP) being available to get my mail -- adding another such as hotmail.com will make my mail even more unreliable. [Re: sorting on To: and Cc:] > =Finally, those headers are not altogether reliable. > > Well, I'm not sure what you mean by this. Look at the headers to this message. It was also sent to -chat, but you don't see that in the To: or Cc:. > It is a _problem_ only when it's rampant. But it is always an anoyance. > And resource-consuming. Not just hub's CPU, but the Internet bandwidth, > people's disks, people's modems, and people's time too. I can think of many things that are annoyances, or potential annoyances... [moved] > No To:-header? So, majordomo removed it? Can you verify? I did > not put anything into CC figuring you are subscribed to -chat. > (I'm not, btw -- your CC are apreciated). And this is one of them: people who have to (repeately) ask "Please Cc: me your answer." With proper -list policy such requests are not necessary. [And yes, majordomo removed it...it was only a temporary snafu on jmb's part, though...otoh, it was well-timed] -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 11:32:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28286 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:32:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.tol.it (mail.tin.it [194.243.154.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28267 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:32:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@tin.it) Received: from dumbwinter.ecomotor.it (a-bu2-21.tin.it [212.216.1.20]) by mail.tol.it (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA03181 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:31:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 2236 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Jul 1998 18:15:46 -0000 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:15:46 +0200 (MET DST) From: Marco Molteni X-Sender: molter@dumbwinter.ecomotor.it To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What about announcing the creation of new mailing lists? In-Reply-To: <199807150221.TAA27187@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan, I just read in a posting to -questions that exist the freebsd-small list. It seems to me that it doesn't exist a way to be automatically advised of the creation of new freebsd- mailing list. I'd like to suggest to announce the new lists on -announce or something similar. What do you think about it? Marco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 11:52:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00840 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:52:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA00813 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:52:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ywWfF-0004f4-00; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:52:29 +0200 Message-ID: <19980715205229.A17904@cityip.co.za> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:52:29 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: LSB Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This might be (probably is) old news: http://editorials.freshmeat.net/lsb/ It goes a long way towards redeeming the Linux community in my eyes. It might save Linux from becoming a hopeless morass, and should go a long ways towards convincing commercial software houses to port to Linux. Which should be good for all of us. It will also remove one of the main reasons I have for preferring FreeBSD to Linux in a production environment. But only one. ;-) -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 11:57:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01774 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:57:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.video-collage.com (root@www.video-collage.com [206.15.171.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01757 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 11:57:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi@xxx.video-collage.com) Received: from xxx.video-collage.com (mi@xxx.video-collage.com [199.232.254.68]) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02954 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:58:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mi@localhost) by xxx.video-collage.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id OAA14104 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:57:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi) From: Mikhail Teterin Message-Id: <199807151857.OAA14104@xxx.video-collage.com> Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. In-Reply-To: <19980715122529.C18373@zappo> from Tim Vanderhoek at "Jul 15, 98 12:25:29 pm" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 14:57:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7w hJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" lists are handled by the same server. This header will also contain only => "official" list names, for your convinience. =For your convenience, all messages contain a Message-id: header. Now, =with great confidence and shutzpah, I urge you, please, use it! Mail coming from decent servers will have it. I count hub as one... =I don't own my own domain and can't create email addresses at will. Mm. Indeed. Well, right now, majordomo has a per-user option of mailing a message to its sender. A similar option can be introduced to allow for per-user configuration of what to do with user on multiple lists handled by the same machine. The default values of that option for a new user can be left to the list's maintainer. => =Finally, those headers are not altogether reliable. => => Well, I'm not sure what you mean by this. =Look at the headers to this message. It was also sent to -chat, but =you don't see that in the To: or Cc:. Weird, I admit, unless you did this on purpose (through Bcc, or smth)... => It is a _problem_ only when it's rampant. But it is always an anoyance. =I can think of many things that are annoyances, or potential =annoyances... Absolutely, but this one just recently came up... =And this is one of them: people who have to (repeately) ask "Please =Cc: me your answer." With proper -list policy such requests are not =necessary. They are if the person asking is not subscribed to the list... =[And yes, majordomo removed it...it was only a temporary snafu on =jmb's part, though...otoh, it was well-timed] It looks like a special header a-la Newsgroups: (X-MalingLists) is needed. Which reminds one, that the whole mailing lists structure has overgrown itself and should be converted to Usenet newsgroups ASAP (moderated and robo-moderated). -mi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 15:53:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00748 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:53:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA00721 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:53:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA06582; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:53:05 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980716085300.28556@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:53:01 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. References: <19980715122529.C18373@zappo> <199807151857.OAA14104@xxx.video-collage.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199807151857.OAA14104@xxx.video-collage.com>; from Mikhail Teterin on Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 02:57:30PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 02:57:30PM -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > Tim Vanderhoek once stated: > > It looks like a special header a-la Newsgroups: (X-MalingLists) is needed. Hehe, I wonder how pleased the linux-newbie people would be to see that I read so many freebsd lists, or what the ladies in crochet-partners would think if my mail suddenly bulked out with the names of 58 technical sounding mailing lists in the header :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 15:58:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA01399 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:58:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.video-collage.com (root@www.video-collage.com [206.15.171.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01382 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 15:58:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mi@xxx.video-collage.com) Received: from xxx.video-collage.com (mi@xxx.video-collage.com [199.232.254.68]) by www.video-collage.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA11172 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:59:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from mi@localhost) by xxx.video-collage.com (8.8.8/8.8.7) id SAA17222 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:58:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from mi) From: Mikhail Teterin Message-Id: <199807152258.SAA17222@xxx.video-collage.com> Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. In-Reply-To: <19980716085300.28556@welearn.com.au> from Sue Blake at "Jul 16, 98 08:53:01 am" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:58:07 -0400 (EDT) X-Face: %UW#n0|w>ydeGt/b@1-.UFP=K^~-:0f#O:D7w hJ5G_<5143Bb3kOIs9XpX+"V+~$adGP:J|SLieM31VIhqXeLBli" Tim Vanderhoek once stated: => => It looks like a special header a-la Newsgroups: (X-MalingLists) is needed. =Hehe, I wonder how pleased the linux-newbie people would be to see that =I read so many freebsd lists, or what the ladies in crochet-partners =would think if my mail suddenly bulked out with the names of 58 =technical sounding mailing lists in the header :-) This would only happen if you were to crosspost the same message to all those lists. -mi (Who would be just as "pleased" to see that) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 16:23:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03894 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:23:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03886 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 16:23:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA06671; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:23:19 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980716092315.15276@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 09:23:15 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Mikhail Teterin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. References: <19980716085300.28556@welearn.com.au> <199807152258.SAA17222@xxx.video-collage.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199807152258.SAA17222@xxx.video-collage.com>; from Mikhail Teterin on Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 06:58:07PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 06:58:07PM -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > Sue Blake once stated: > > =On Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 02:57:30PM -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > => Tim Vanderhoek once stated: > => > => It looks like a special header a-la Newsgroups: (X-MalingLists) is needed. > > =Hehe, I wonder how pleased the linux-newbie people would be to see that > =I read so many freebsd lists, or what the ladies in crochet-partners > =would think if my mail suddenly bulked out with the names of 58 > =technical sounding mailing lists in the header :-) > > This would only happen if you were to crosspost the same message to > all those lists. Oh, I misread the context and missed the newsgroup analogy. Poo. I thought you were proposing this as a way of letting others know, for example, if you're subscribed to -chat or need a personal response. Silly me, just when I thought we were having fun! -- Regards, -*Sue*- ========================================================================= ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: I am subscribed to most FreeBSD ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: mailing lists, including -chat, ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: but I have no objection to being ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: sent personal copies. In fact, I ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: prefer to have the second copy ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: because it arrives much quicker, ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: is easier to identify, and makes ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: makes my mail processing simpler. ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: But don't worry, do whatever you ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: find most convenient when replying. ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: ::::::::::::: ========================================================================= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 18:47:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23197 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:47:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA23191 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:47:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: from (titus.stade.co.uk) [158.152.29.164] by post.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ywcoQ-0005Vq-00; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:26:22 +0000 Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.stade.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07653; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:02:42 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Message-ID: <19980716010242.A5889@stade.co.uk> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:02:42 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: STOP THE BLOODY CROSS POSTING! Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <199807150443.AAA16033@xxx.video-collage.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Tim Vanderhoek on Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:43:24PM -0400 Organization: Stade Computers Ltd, UK X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 14, 1998 at 11:43:24PM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > If something happens to belong in -multimedia, -mobile, and > -current (and poster's opinion had damn better agree with the > opinion of the list charters on this), then it should be posted > to all three. In the hopefully rare cases of this being necessary, I'd suggest that the poster sends the message separately to each of the lists involved, which should cut down the multiple copies of replies. The downside is that it will also fragment discussion. I recall that jmb (I think) has already mentioned a cross-posting limit of 2 lists. Reducing it to 1 (perhaps with the exception of a very small and select group of posters) would enforce this. -- Adrian Wontroba, Stade Computers Limited. phone: (+44) 121 681 6677 Mail info@accu.org for information about the Association of C and C++ Users or see To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 18:52:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23652 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:52:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA23646 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:52:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23010; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:52:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980715205221.44961@futuresouth.com> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 20:52:21 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: aw1@stade.co.uk Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: STOP THE BLOODY CROSS POSTING! References: <199807150443.AAA16033@xxx.video-collage.com> <19980716010242.A5889@stade.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <19980716010242.A5889@stade.co.uk>; from Adrian Wontroba on Thu, Jul 16, 1998 at 01:02:42AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 16, 1998 at 01:02:42AM +0100, Adrian Wontroba woke me up to tell me: > In the hopefully rare cases of this being necessary, I'd suggest that > the poster sends the message separately to each of the lists involved, > which should cut down the multiple copies of replies. The downside is > that it will also fragment discussion. I think that's a really big downside. Most (if not all) of the point of (reasonable) crossposting is that the subject (and relies and discussion thereon) are of interest to the multiple groups. Fragmenting would destroy that, and would actually subject those of use who are subscribed to both/all the lists to more senseless duplication of mail and effort than just the crosspost. > I recall that jmb (I think) has already mentioned a cross-posting limit > of 2 lists. Reducing it to 1 (perhaps with the exception of a very small > and select group of posters) would enforce this. Reducing to 1 is going to far. For instance, moving a discussion. That really should take place on both the original and the destination lists. Often (read: when I remember ;) I Bcc: the list we're moving off of so they know where it's going if they want to follow it, and because it's blinded, it would take special effort to send it to both lists, which presumably would only be made if it should be done. But it prevents mindless 'reply to all' from causing pointless duplication. OK, I think that's long enough for now... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 18:54:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23915 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23899; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:54:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807160154.SAA23899@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: STOP THE BLOODY CROSS POSTING! In-Reply-To: <19980716010242.A5889@stade.co.uk> from Adrian Wontroba at "Jul 16, 98 01:02:42 am" To: aw1@stade.co.uk Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 18:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Adrian Wontroba wrote: > > I recall that jmb (I think) has already mentioned a cross-posting limit > of 2 lists. Reducing it to 1 (perhaps with the exception of a very small > and select group of posters) would enforce this. i picked 2 so that a person can transfer a thread of discussion from one list to another withou having to send 2 emails. threads often migrate to chat from the other lists. aint in concrete, we'll see how it works. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 23:33:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23435 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:33:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA23375 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:33:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ywhbL-00050D-00; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:33:11 +0200 Message-ID: <19980716083311.A19214@cityip.co.za> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 08:33:11 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: "From MSWord to MSWorld" Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org An interesting series of articles on MS's global domination plans are to be found at: http://www.netaction.org/msoft/world/ -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 15 23:43:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24899 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:43:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24889 for ; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:43:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim@localhost.my.domain) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1727.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.191]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA12815; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 02:42:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA20495; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 00:42:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980716004244.B20457@zappo> Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 00:42:44 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Mikhail Teterin , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stopping the bloody cross posting. References: <19980715122529.C18373@zappo> <199807151857.OAA14104@xxx.video-collage.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807151857.OAA14104@xxx.video-collage.com>; from Mikhail Teterin on Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 02:57:30PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 15, 1998 at 02:57:30PM -0400, Mikhail Teterin wrote: > > Mm. Indeed. Well, right now, majordomo has a per-user option of mailing > a message to its sender. A similar option can be introduced to allow for > per-user configuration of what to do with user on multiple lists handled > by the same machine. The default values of that option for a new user > can be left to the list's maintainer. Go Mikhail, go! "If you build it, they will come." > => =Finally, those headers are not altogether reliable. > => Well, I'm not sure what you mean by this. > =Look at the headers to this message. It was also sent to -chat, but > =you don't see that in the To: or Cc:. > Weird, I admit, unless you did this on purpose (through Bcc, or smth)... It was intended to clarify my above-quoted comment, the one preceeded by the "> => =". [Incidentally I've heard par(1) can fix-up those quote chars... I'm going to slosh through that manpage sometime, yet... :-] > =And this is one of them: people who have to (repeately) ask "Please > =Cc: me your answer." With proper -list policy such requests are not > =necessary. > > They are if the person asking is not subscribed to the list... _With_ _proper_ -list _policy_ such requests _are_ _not_ necessary. ie. You (just now) didn't Cc: me. You should have. I happened to get this message because it luckily happened to get caught in my kibbo.Mailbox and because I happened to have time to read -chat today. Next time the world may not be so lucky. :( -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 16 12:59:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04458 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:59:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.well.com (smtp.well.com [206.80.6.147]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04449 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:58:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rogue@well.com) Received: from well.com (nobody@well.com [206.15.64.10]) by smtp.well.com (8.8.6/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA23154 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from rogue@localhost) by well.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA17474 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:58:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "L. Brett Glass" Message-Id: <199807161958.MAA17474@well.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: We are under attack Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Our FreeBSD server has been under attack for the past 24 hours by crackers seeking to exploit a buffer overflow bug in Qualcomm's QPopper POP3 server. I just got back from a two-week honeymoon and had not heard about the potential exploit when we got hit. I figured out what was going on from the system logs, which showed large amounts of bogus input to the daemon. The attacks seem to be originating from a domain in New York City; the name of the system is "eastcoast.hitnet.org" (AKA "hitman.com"). From the sound of it, this is an organized, nationwide group. They obviously have experience with FreeBSD, as they compiled Trojan horse versions of at least two system utilities and replaced the existing ones with them. I realized we'd been "rooted" when I saw that these files, which were owned by root:wheel, had been replace. We've contacted the FBI and hope for a speedy response. In the meantime, don't wait; if you're using FreeBSD with the Qualcomm POP3 server, get the new one NOW. It may also be a good idea to block traffic from the subnet 207.198.185.X, where the attacks on our system originated. Help from the FreeBSD community in recovering from this root compromise would be MUCH appreciated. --Brett Glass (normally brett@lariat.org) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 16 13:28:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08853 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (jkb@shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08848 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:28:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id NAA27706; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:28:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 13:28:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: "L. Brett Glass" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: We are under attack In-Reply-To: <199807161958.MAA17474@well.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, L. Brett Glass wrote: >Our FreeBSD server has been under attack for the past 24 hours by crackers >seeking to exploit a buffer overflow bug in Qualcomm's QPopper POP3 server. >I just got back from a two-week honeymoon and had not heard about the >potential exploit when we got hit. I figured out what was going on from >the system logs, which showed large amounts of bogus input to the daemon. Yeah, BSD and Linux exploits were posted on bugtraq a few weeks ago. You do have a backup admin when you leave, right? :) Also, check out www.nfr.net -- it can help you during break in to see what took place. > >The attacks seem to be originating from a domain in New York City; the name >of the system is "eastcoast.hitnet.org" (AKA "hitman.com"). From the sound >of it, this is an organized, nationwide group. They obviously have experience >with FreeBSD, as they compiled Trojan horse versions of at least two system >utilities and replaced the existing ones with them. I realized we'd been >"rooted" when I saw that these files, which were owned by root:wheel, >had been replace. www.hitman.com seem to be an ISP. Most likely they got 0wned with same exploit, backdoored it and use it now to stage new attacks. > >We've contacted the FBI and hope for a speedy response. In the meantime, >don't wait; if you're using FreeBSD with the Qualcomm POP3 server, get >the new one NOW. It may also be a good idea to block traffic from the subnet >207.198.185.X, where the attacks on our system originated. Help from the >FreeBSD community in recovering from this root compromise would be MUCH >appreciated. Hehe.. guess what? FBI doesn't care unless you have at least 100K loss or theft. Qualcomm bug was mentioned here and on bugtraq. You have excuse - you were gone. Someone else, if they don't know about qualcomm, it is their fault. Now, about recovering .. suspect ALL your data. Get a new system. Install 2.2.6 on it. Then cvsup to -stable and make world to make sure you have all the patches. Then move over user data only from /usr/home (or other place where you have user data). Copy other files by hand and check them for backdoors (/etc/crontab, /etc/aliases, etc, etc). Install tripwire on your new system also. :) Do post your progress or if you have any further questions. -- Yan > >--Brett Glass (normally brett@lariat.org) > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 16 14:07:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14401 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:07:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA14375 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:07:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA07832; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:06:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807162106.PAA07832@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:03:14 -0600 To: "Jan B. Koum " , "L. Brett Glass" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: We are under attack Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199807161958.MAA17474@well.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:28 PM 7/16/98 -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > Yeah, BSD and Linux exploits were posted on bugtraq a few weeks >ago. You do have a backup admin when you leave, right? :) Yes, but he's primarily an NT whiz. ;-S > www.hitman.com seem to be an ISP. Most likely they got 0wned with >same exploit, backdoored it and use it now to stage new attacks. I don't think so. Their InterNIC registration seems to use a fraudulently obtained e-mail address. I think they're hiding behind something. And, again, "eastcoast" implies a "westcoast", so this could be a nationwide thing. > Hehe.. guess what? FBI doesn't care unless you have at least 100K >loss or theft. This is a big public e-mail server. There's a LOT of valuable business data on it. (Or, I should say, there WAS. One thing about buffer overflow exploits is that they usually corrupt RAM. They sideswiped the disk cache and we experienced some disk corruption as a result: files with nonexistent owners, etc. We have good backups, but unfortunately the attack did go into the business day. >Qualcomm bug was mentioned here and on bugtraq. You have >excuse - you were gone. Someone else, if they don't know about qualcomm, >it is their fault. I first found info on it -- after I deduced that this was what was going on -- on CERT's Web site. They published the report on the 14th. I might have seen it earlier, but I was out of touch in the Scottish Highlands. > Now, about recovering .. suspect ALL your data. Get a new system. >Install 2.2.6 on it. Then cvsup to -stable and make world to make sure you >have all the patches. How long 'till 2.2.7? >Then move over user data only from /usr/home (or >other place where you have user data). Copy other files by hand and check >them for backdoors (/etc/crontab, /etc/aliases, etc, etc). Install >tripwire on your new system also. :) Only one problem: PASSWORDS may have been compromised, too. The crackers got root. Fortunately, we have a very small number of people with root privilege, and we can take care of all of them. But we still care about the users; we don't want their data compromised. I think the big mistake was in using ANYTHING from Qualcomm. Eudora Pro is incredibly buggy, bloated, and slow, and their tech support is the worst on Earth.... I should have known. Anyone know of a better POP server? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 16 14:29:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19436 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:29:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19402; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:29:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18030; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:29:33 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199807162129.PAA18030@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: What about announcing the creation of new mailing lists? In-Reply-To: from Marco Molteni at "Jul 15, 98 08:15:46 pm" To: molter@tin.it (Marco Molteni) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:29:32 -0600 (MDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marco proposed: > > I'd like to suggest to announce the new lists on -announce or something > similar. What do you think about it? I like this idea, too. Including the list charter would be a good idea, if it isn't too much traffic. Or perhaps just including a link to the list charter on the web page, and a senctence describing the purpose of the list; this would keep the message size reasonable. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 16 19:19:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06428 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:19:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from baygull.rtd.com (baygull.rtd.com [198.102.68.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06422 for ; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:19:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from uusite!ANGUSSF@baygull.rtd.com) Received: from uusite.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by baygull.rtd.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) with UUCP id TAA26223 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:19:00 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <199807170219.TAA26223@baygull.rtd.com> Received: by sf.geoapps.com (MG PM3-Waf 3.42D); Thu, 16 Jul 98 19:15:25 -0700 (MST) From: "Angus Scott-Fleming" Organization: GeoApps To: The Classiest Man Alive Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 19:07:53 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jordan's editorial Reply-to: angussf@geoapps.com CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.54) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Jul 98 at 16:03, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > Did you guys read Jordan's editorial on the free software > movement? It's at http://editorials.freshmeat.net/jordan980713. FYI the URL needs a trailing "/" http://editorials.freshmeat.net/jordan980713/ ---- Angus Scott-Fleming, GeoApplications angussf@geoapps.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 01:27:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04995 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:27:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA04989 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:27:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@oslo.sl.slb.com) Received: from sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (sunw110 [192.23.231.54]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA05571 ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:25:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA19774; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:25:06 +0200 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jan B. Koum " , "L. Brett Glass" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: We are under attack References: <199807161958.MAA17474@well.com> <199807162106.PAA07832@lariat.lariat.org> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 17 Jul 1998 10:25:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of Thu, 16 Jul 1998 15:03:14 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > I think the big mistake was in using ANYTHING from Qualcomm. Eudora Pro is > incredibly buggy, bloated, and slow, and their tech support is the worst on > Earth.... I should have known. Anyone know of a better POP server? Cyrus? It's in the ports. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 01:51:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07525 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:51:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@[194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07520 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 01:51:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA10155; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:42:52 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35AF0E8B.D041B5D3@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:42:51 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass CC: "Jan B. Koum" , "L. Brett Glass" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: We are under attack References: <199807161958.MAA17474@well.com> <199807162106.PAA07832@lariat.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > I think the big mistake was in using ANYTHING from Qualcomm. Eudora Pro is > incredibly buggy, bloated, and slow, and their tech support is the worst on > Earth.... I should have known. Anyone know of a better POP server? cucipop, or if you can change mailbox format then qmail or cyrus. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 08:41:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21052 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:41:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (root@smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21030 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 08:41:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA20583 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:41:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 11:41:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Paul Griffith To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSD at the movies Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If you happen to rent/watch the movie Sphere check out the part entitled "The Exchange" you will notice Samual L. jackson running a prgeam from /usr/home, then in the next screen shot will you see BSD on the command line. Paul Griffith - paulg@interlog.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 09:22:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07666 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:22:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07644; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:22:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807171622.JAA07644@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: What about announcing the creation of new mailing lists? In-Reply-To: <199807162129.PAA18030@obie.softweyr.com> from Wes Peters at "Jul 16, 98 03:29:32 pm" To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 09:22:16 -0700 (PDT) Cc: molter@tin.it, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters wrote: > Marco proposed: > > > > I'd like to suggest to announce the new lists on -announce or something > > similar. What do you think about it? > > I like this idea, too. Including the list charter would be a good > idea, if it isn't too much traffic. Or perhaps just including a > link to the list charter on the web page, and a senctence describing > the purpose of the list; this would keep the message size reasonable. i believe that it did go out to announce. i expect that all new lists will appear in the "quick newsletter" which goes to announce. it appeared in cvs updates :) when the web pages changed. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 10:27:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17469 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:27:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA17458 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:27:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: (qmail 28167 invoked by uid 1001); 17 Jul 1998 17:27:16 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 17 Jul 1998 17:27:16 -0000 Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 10:27:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Evans To: Paul Griffith cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD at the movies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Paul Griffith wrote: > If you happen to rent/watch the movie Sphere check out the part entitled > "The Exchange" you will notice Samual L. jackson running a prgeam from > /usr/home, then in the next screen shot will you see BSD on the command > line. I watched it last night, and the only coherent thing I picked up was (I think) reading from /vmunix. I didn't rewind to make sure though. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 12:48:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA07451 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:48:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA07440 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 12:48:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19746; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:48:39 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807171948.NAA19746@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:47:34 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Let's close the door to "stack hacks" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm in the process of orchestrating a long, painstaking cleanup after a cracker rooted our system via a buffer overflow exploit in Qualcomm's POP server. We're going to reinstall the entire OS, recompile every utility from known good source, and go over every script line by line -- about 3 man months of effort. Worse, the exploit did more than just give the cracker root access; it also trashed our disk. (The corruption must have extended into memory used by the disk cache or file system code.) Now, I realize that buffer overflows are a fundamental problem of the C language -- and are, in fact, one of the reasons why I avoid programming in it when I can. Nonetheless, a weakness in a language and/or its libraries shouldn't spark an endless war against OS security holes. I'd therefore like to initiate a discussion of ways to make it impossible for a buffer overflow to allow the sort of "root canal" we experienced. Can it be made difficult or impossible to execute code from the stack? Alternatively, is there a way to prevent code inserted into the stack from being position-independent enough to run there? Is there a good way to check stack integrity after a call that might compromise it? Is it possible to remove library routines that allow uncounted strings to trash memory? FreeBSD has a lot to gain by coming up with good safeguards against such attacks, since it could then claim that it's light years ahead of Linux vis-a-vis security. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 13:03:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10645 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:03:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [207.126.97.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10640 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:03:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19039 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:03:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:03:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199807172003.NAA19039@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Once again, I have been summarily removed from a variety of lists, without notification. This is the last time i will make any effort to get back on. If the person or people who run the mailing lists can't be bothered to not remove people who want to be on th elists, I give up. This is the third time I've been removed from some lists. And I am fed up with it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 13:19:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13048 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:19:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13041; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:19:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA15674; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807172018.NAA15674@implode.root.com> To: Sean Eric Fagan cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:03:24 PDT." <199807172003.NAA19039@kithrup.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:18:35 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Once again, I have been summarily removed from a variety of lists, without >notification. > >This is the last time i will make any effort to get back on. If >the person or people who run the mailing lists can't be bothered to >not remove people who want to be on th elists, I give up. > >This is the third time I've been removed from some lists. And I am >fed up with it. I believe Jonathan's scripts that do the removals are automated and non- discriminatory. Even core members can be removed if their email delievery becomes unreliable. I don't know why you got removed, but I suggest talking to Jonathan about it. jmb@freebsd.org. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 13:19:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13128 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:19:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from panzer.plutotech.com (ken@panzer.plutotech.com [206.168.67.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13121 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:19:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ken@panzer.plutotech.com) Received: (from ken@localhost) by panzer.plutotech.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id OAA14508; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:19:17 -0600 (MDT) From: "Kenneth D. Merry" Message-Id: <199807172019.OAA14508@panzer.plutotech.com> Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* In-Reply-To: <199807172003.NAA19039@kithrup.com> from Sean Eric Fagan at "Jul 17, 98 01:03:24 pm" To: sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:19:17 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL28s (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Eric Fagan wrote... > Once again, I have been summarily removed from a variety of lists, without > notification. > > This is the last time i will make any effort to get back on. If > the person or people who run the mailing lists can't be bothered to > not remove people who want to be on th elists, I give up. > > This is the third time I've been removed from some lists. And I am > fed up with it. I can't speak for jmb, since I have no idea why you've gotten bumped off the lists. However, I can speak as the administrator of about 15 different mailing lists. When I start getting bounced messages from various lists, I try to remove the user in question pretty quickly. It's no use trying to mail them if their mail is bouncing. It is often the case that people will subscribe to mailing lists, and then let their account lapse/go away/expire without first unsubscribing to all the lists they're on. Personally, whenever I see bounced mail, I almost always delete the person in question from every list I control, unless I know the person's circumstances. (i.e. temporary system problem is causing bounced mail, etc.) My guess is that you've been removed because mail to you was bouncing for some reason... If that's the case, it's not surprising at all that you weren't notified. I would just ask jmb(@FreeBSD.ORG) why you've been removed from the lists. He's the postmaster, and he may remember why he removed you. Ken -- Kenneth Merry ken@plutotech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 13:21:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13539 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:21:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [207.126.97.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13534 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:21:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20400; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:21:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:21:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199807172021.NAA20400@kithrup.com> To: dg@root.com Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807172018.NAA15674@implode.root.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I believe Jonathan's scripts that do the removals are automated and non- >discriminatory. Even core members can be removed if their email delievery >becomes unreliable. My mail was not unreliable, unless it was CRL's or freebsd.org's fault. I had a thre day period of unreliability three weeks ago, but I wasn't removed *then*. This is the fourth time this has happened, and I GIVE UP. Apparantly maintaining subscribers it a lower priority item than removing them, and I don't have the time to figure out which lists I'm on, and on what addresses, and what the list names were, anymore. > I don't know why you got removed, but I suggest talking to Jonathan >about it. jmb@freebsd.org. I have. And, gosh, I am *still* not subscribed to the lists I was removed from, despite sending in a subscription request a couple of hours ago. Which, it looks like, majordomo ignored all but two lines of. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 13:28:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14280 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:28:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [207.126.97.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14275 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:28:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21116; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:27:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:27:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199807172027.NAA21116@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ken@plutotech.com Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* In-Reply-To: <199807172019.OAA14508@panzer.plutotech.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I can't speak for jmb, since I have no idea why you've gotten >bumped off the lists. However, I can speak as the administrator of about >15 different mailing lists. Right, I"ve *NEVER* run large mailing lists, I have *NO* idea what it's like. (He said sarcastically.) My current netconnection is considerably better and more reliable than Walnut Creek's (not counting ftp.cdrom.com -- if I wanted better connectivity than that machine, it would cost me a couple hundred a month). I had a brief period of problems, three days, when my ISP died, but I wasn't removed then-- I was still getting messages until the middle of last week. > I would just ask jmb(@FreeBSD.ORG) why you've been removed from >the lists. He's the postmaster, and he may remember why he removed you. What makes you thnnk I hadn't? He said something about a fibre cut, and when it was restored, lots of mail came flooding in, and caused file corruption. And files were truncated. "i believe that a number of files. that the files truncated were the files that store the list of subscribers." So why weren't the files restored from backup? Why wasn't a note sent to the various lists to try to find people who were affected? Why is the first time I've heard about this file corruption, which should have affected lots of people, more than a week after I was removed rom lists? I don't really have time these days to track down what lists I was on, nor figure out how to resubscribe to them. Especially when, while it takes no time to be deleted, it has taken nearly a week to get back on at times. Today is the first day with enough idle time I've had in a week to get around to reading the various lists -- and imagine my surprise when there wasn't anything in most of them. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 13:39:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17004 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:39:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16996; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:38:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807172038.NAA16996@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* In-Reply-To: <199807172003.NAA19039@kithrup.com> from Sean Eric Fagan at "Jul 17, 98 01:03:24 pm" To: sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > Once again, I have been summarily removed from a variety of lists, without > notification. > > This is the last time i will make any effort to get back on. If > the person or people who run the mailing lists can't be bothered to > not remove people who want to be on th elists, I give up. > > This is the third time I've been removed from some lists. And I am > fed up with it. > around july 8th, there was a massive fiber cut between philly and dc. when service was restored, hub was flooded with email that had stacked up trying to reach it. each email created many more as the lists were exploded. hub was not up to the task and a number of subscriber files seem to have been affected. since then, hub has gotten another 128MB of memory (thanks mike! no more swapping) about a dozen people were affected. as a precaution, the admin passwords for all the lists were changed. in the past you have bounced mail. anyone that bounces more than 20 messages in a 24 hour period may be removed from the lists. i dont send them email saying "your being removed because you're bouncing mail" because they are bouncing mail ;) "can't be bothered to not remove people who want to be on the lists"? i hope everyone who subscribes wants to be on the lists. should i leave people that bounce mail on the lists? to what end? for how long? mail will not for at least 3 days. so if a site will not accept mail for 3 days. they may be removed. i believe that this is a reasonable course of action. UNLESS...the site loses its DNS. then the mail will bounce immediately. both of these problem can be remedied thru diversely connected MX and NS servers. in you case the MX servers, kithrup.com and data.pa.vix.com, are diversely connected. Unfortunately, your NS servers are not. you have only two NS records, both at scruz.net. scruz.net is served, according to my current version of the BGP-4 table, by uu.net. uu.net does suffer outages, just like the rest of us. this is why my employer has two isp's which are diversely connected: uu.net and crl.com. the implication is that in the past you may have suffered lose of NS service....and immediate mail bounce. that will get you unsubscribed pretty quickly if you are on a high volume list or it happens during a high volume spurt on a normally quiet list. i am sorry for the loss of service that you and others suffered as a result of the events on or about july 8th. though it is small consolation, all mail messages are archived on ftp.freebsd.org in /pub/FreeBSD/mailing-lists/archive. all mail since the second week of december 1994 is there. jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Core Team, Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--The Power to Serve JMB193 http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 13:43:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17818 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:43:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from redfish.go2net.com (redfish.go2net.com [207.178.55.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA17798; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:43:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@go2net.com) Received: from marcs by redfish.go2net.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yxHK4-00063c-00; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:41:44 -0700 Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:41:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Marc Slemko X-Sender: marcs@redfish To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* In-Reply-To: <199807172038.NAA16996@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: [...] > in the past you have bounced mail. anyone that bounces > more than 20 messages in a 24 hour period may be removed > from the lists. i dont send them email saying "your being > removed because you're bouncing mail" because they are > bouncing mail ;) It would be useful if such mail could be sent x (eg. 2-4) days after the fact to handle the common case where there is some temporary problem. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 13:47:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18588 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:47:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18578; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:47:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807172047.NAA18578@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* In-Reply-To: from Marc Slemko at "Jul 17, 98 01:41:44 pm" To: marcs@znep.com (Marc Slemko) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:47:26 -0700 (PDT) Cc: jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc Slemko wrote: > On Fri, 17 Jul 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > [...] > > in the past you have bounced mail. anyone that bounces > > more than 20 messages in a 24 hour period may be removed > > from the lists. i dont send them email saying "your being > > removed because you're bouncing mail" because they are > > bouncing mail ;) > > It would be useful if such mail could be sent x (eg. 2-4) days after the > fact to handle the common case where there is some temporary problem. i started adding people to a bounces mailing list. mail is sent once a day to all bounces subscribers telling them of their plight, how to resubscribe, how to unsubscribe from bounces and how to contact me. no one ever did! i gave up adding people after a couple months. guess i didnt wait long enough. some of them may yet come back from the dead ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 13:49:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18860 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [207.126.97.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18852; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:49:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23035; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:49:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:49:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199807172049.NAA23035@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* In-Reply-To: <199807172038.NAA16996@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > in you case the MX servers, kithrup.com and data.pa.vix.com, > are diversely connected. Unfortunately, your NS servers > are not. you have only two NS records, both at scruz.net. > > scruz.net is served, according to my current version of > the BGP-4 table, by uu.net. uu.net does suffer outages, > just like the rest of us. this is why my employer has two > isp's which are diversely connected: uu.net and crl.com. > > the implication is that in the past you may have suffered > lose of NS service....and immediate mail bounce. that will > get you unsubscribed pretty quickly if you are on a high > volume list or it happens during a high volume spurt on a > normally quiet list. I would strongly suggest you have evidence of that. I actively watch my net connectivty, basicly continuously as I can (while I am awake and near a computer). Guess what: i know excatly when my NS information was out. I also know how long it is cached, when it is valid, and when it was lost. My NS information has not been lost to the point of having "kithrup.com" being invalid, since early 1996, when I moved and switched ISP's. You do understand that it's cached, don't you? It takes seven days for the information to expire. Now, make up your mind: was I removed because mail bounced? You said no, earlier. You claimed it was because a fibre cut resulted in corrupted files. Which is it? Note that I informed you, via a note to postmaster@freebsd.org, on the weekend of June 27/28, that my connectivity was down, and there might be some mail bounces, but it would be fixed by Monday, June 29th, morning. And, gosh, it *WAS*. But, amazingly enough, mail was continusouly delivered to my MX host throughout the weekend. (There were some bounces Monday morning, when I had several thousand mail messages come through simultaneously, and used up my open file space. Fixed a bit later. But that is not three days worth of bounces.) If you remove at first bounce, you're doing the wrong thing. If you do not keep track of which ones were removed due to bouncing, so they can be added when a transient problem is corrected, you are doing the wrong thing. If you are not sure why addresses were removed en masse, you are doing the wrong thing. And, even more interesting, I WAS STILL ON THE LISTS AS OF JULY 7th. That's last week. Two and a half weeks after my ISP went out. So why am I not on all the lists I am supposed to be? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 13:58:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20572 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:58:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20544; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:58:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807172058.NAA20544@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* In-Reply-To: <199807172049.NAA23035@kithrup.com> from Sean Eric Fagan at "Jul 17, 98 01:49:31 pm" To: sef@kithrup.com (Sean Eric Fagan) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > in you case the MX servers, kithrup.com and data.pa.vix.com, > > are diversely connected. Unfortunately, your NS servers > > are not. you have only two NS records, both at scruz.net. > > > > scruz.net is served, according to my current version of > > the BGP-4 table, by uu.net. uu.net does suffer outages, > > just like the rest of us. this is why my employer has two > > isp's which are diversely connected: uu.net and crl.com. > > > > the implication is that in the past you may have suffered > > lose of NS service....and immediate mail bounce. that will > > get you unsubscribed pretty quickly if you are on a high > > volume list or it happens during a high volume spurt on a > > normally quiet list. > > I would strongly suggest you have evidence of that. I actively watch my net > connectivty, basicly continuously as I can (while I am awake and near a > computer). > > Guess what: i know excatly when my NS information was out. I also know how > long it is cached, when it is valid, and when it was lost. > > My NS information has not been lost to the point of having "kithrup.com" being > invalid, since early 1996, when I moved and switched ISP's. You do understand > that it's cached, don't you? It takes seven days for the information to > expire. > > Now, make up your mind: was I removed because mail bounced? You said no, > earlier. You claimed it was because a fibre cut resulted in corrupted files. you count 4 times. i claim two reasons. > Which is it? Note that I informed you, via a note to postmaster@freebsd.org, > on the weekend of June 27/28, that my connectivity was down, and there might > be some mail bounces, but it would be fixed by Monday, June 29th, morning. and you were not removed from the lists. > And, gosh, it *WAS*. But, amazingly enough, mail was continusouly delivered > to my MX host throughout the weekend. (There were some bounces Monday > morning, when I had several thousand mail messages come through > simultaneously, and used up my open file space. Fixed a bit later. But that > is not three days worth of bounces.) 20 is my cut off....more that than in a 24 hour period qualifies an address for removal. > If you remove at first bounce, you're doing the wrong thing. If you do not > keep track of which ones were removed due to bouncing, so they can be added > when a transient problem is corrected, you are doing the wrong thing. > > If you are not sure why addresses were removed en masse, you are doing the > wrong thing. > > And, even more interesting, I WAS STILL ON THE LISTS AS OF JULY 7th. > > That's last week. Two and a half weeks after my ISP went out. > > So why am I not on all the lists I am supposed to be? please re-read my earlier email. its time for me to take the kids to swim practice, so i'll be off the net for a while. i got go swim my laps as well ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 14:09:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22833 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:09:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [207.126.97.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22818 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:09:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25446 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:09:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 14:09:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199807172109.OAA25446@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: And it's back Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was lost from more lists than I thought. Ouch. No wonder I've not had so much stuff to skip the past week or so... My subscription request to majordomo was apparantly corrupted by it. eeep! jmb added me back to the lists, fortunately. (Er, "by it" means, "by majordomo" there.) (Now, mind you, some of them are very low volume :).) As I said, this was the fourth time in the past three years that I've been removed, somehow, from various mailing lists. Some of it I don't mind -- I stopped reading freebsd-bugs for a year or so. But mysteriously disappearing off of -hackers has happened, and I vanished from seven or eight lists this time... Is this a majordomo problem, or a freebsd-load-related problem? Any one have any ideas? I've got a better list of which ones I'm on now, for future reference. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 15:14:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA05781 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from titus.stade.co.uk (stade.demon.co.uk [158.152.29.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05775 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 15:14:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.stade.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA06061; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:59:20 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Message-ID: <19980717225920.A1388@stade.co.uk> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:59:20 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: And it's back Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199807172109.OAA25446@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807172109.OAA25446@kithrup.com>; from Sean Eric Fagan on Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 02:09:33PM -0700 Organization: Stade Computers Ltd, UK X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 02:09:33PM -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > Is this a majordomo problem, or a freebsd-load-related problem? Any one have > any ideas? In my opinion, both. I used to look after a system using Majordomo on a relatively small FreeBSD system (P120, 16MB). Majordomo can somewhat process happy - and if it runs in to the process limit while attempting to claim a lock file evil things happen to the alias list. I ruined several list by mailing 32 separate subscription approvals to Majordomo from my dialup machine. When I connected they they arrived in quick succession on the server, and the machine and majordomo went nuts, with sendmail and perl processes everywhere. When the dust settled I discovered that the alias file was empty. After restoring from a backup and perusing log files for later subscriptions, I circumvented the problem by setting sendmail to queued delivery only, with a queue run every 5 minutes. Not ideal, but the machine carries a light mail load. It is arguable that I should have tuned it better. A majordomo list I subscribe to recently lost all its subscribers, I assume due to a similar event. -- Adrian Wontroba, Stade Computers Limited. phone: (+44) 121 681 6677 Mail info@accu.org for information about the Association of C and C++ Users or see To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 16:18:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13108 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:18:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA13096 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:18:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from (ragnet.demon.co.uk) [158.152.46.40] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yxJlj-0001HL-00; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 23:18:28 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yxHFb-0005E9-00; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:37:07 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199807172027.NAA21116@kithrup.com> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:37:07 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: Sean Eric Fagan Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* Cc: ken@plutotech.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17-Jul-98 Sean Eric Fagan wrote: >> I can't speak for jmb, since I have no idea why you've gotten >>bumped off the lists. However, I can speak as the administrator of about >>15 different mailing lists. > > Right, I"ve *NEVER* run large mailing lists, I have *NO* idea what it's like. > (He said sarcastically.) > > My current netconnection is considerably better and more reliable than Walnut > Creek's (not counting ftp.cdrom.com -- if I wanted better connectivity than > that machine, it would cost me a couple hundred a month). I had a brief > period of problems, three days, when my ISP died, but I wasn't removed then-- > I was still getting messages until the middle of last week. > I too was un-subscribed from all the lists sometime overnight (UK time) on 8th or 9th of July. >> I would just ask jmb(@FreeBSD.ORG) why you've been removed from >>the lists. He's the postmaster, and he may remember why he removed you. > > What makes you thnnk I hadn't? > > He said something about a fibre cut, and when it was restored, lots of mail > came flooding in, and caused file corruption. And files were truncated. "i > believe that a number of files. that the files truncated were the files that > store the list of subscribers." > > So why weren't the files restored from backup? Why wasn't a note sent to the > various lists to try to find people who were affected? Why is the first time > I've heard about this file corruption, which should have affected lots of > people, more than a week after I was removed rom lists? Ditto. Fortunately for me, FreeBSD is a hobby but as I can appreciate the hassle that is causes people you need the lists to make money. Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 16:31:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15226 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15220; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807172331.QAA15220@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Majordomo [was Re: And it's back] In-Reply-To: <19980717225920.A1388@stade.co.uk> from Adrian Wontroba at "Jul 17, 98 10:59:20 pm" To: aw1@stade.co.uk Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 16:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Adrian Wontroba wrote: > On Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 02:09:33PM -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > Is this a majordomo problem, or a freebsd-load-related problem? Any one have > > any ideas? > > In my opinion, both. > > I used to look after a system using Majordomo on a relatively small > FreeBSD system (P120, 16MB). Majordomo can somewhat process happy - and > if it runs in to the process limit while attempting to claim a lock > file evil things happen to the alias list. I ruined several list by > mailing 32 separate subscription approvals to Majordomo from my dialup > machine. When I connected they they arrived in quick succession on the > server, and the machine and majordomo went nuts, with sendmail and perl > processes everywhere. When the dust settled I discovered that the alias > file was empty. After restoring from a backup and perusing log files for wow! please be careful here. i read "aliases files" and nearly filled my shorts! i dont see how /etc/aliases could have been affected....majordomo doesnt have root. so your list file (or subscribers file) got toasted. hmm.... which version of majordomo? are you grouping addresses, say 10 per outbound email, or are you sending 1 message per address and creating a sendmail process for each? we run in daemon mode. 1 message per 10 addresses (generally). addresses sorted by domain (not MX) but we use relays to handle outbound mail sorted by domain. jmb > later subscriptions, I circumvented the problem by setting sendmail to > queued delivery only, with a queue run every 5 minutes. Not ideal, but > the machine carries a light mail load. It is arguable that I should have > tuned it better. > > A majordomo list I subscribe to recently lost all its subscribers, I > assume due to a similar event. > > -- > Adrian Wontroba, Stade Computers Limited. phone: (+44) 121 681 6677 > Mail info@accu.org for information about the Association of C and C++ Users > or see > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 17:20:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23518 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:20:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23512 for chat; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:20:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:20:09 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807180020.RAA23512@hub.freebsd.org> To: chat Subject: quick peek at what can fail in mail Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org anything to go wrong ;) The original message was received at Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:01:40 -0700 (PDT) from daemon@localhost ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to ann.indigo.ie.: >>> MAIL From: SIZE=1357 <<< 553 ... Access denied, name FreeBSD.ORG u nknown to DNS 501 ... Data format error --RAB20168.900720522/hub.freebsd.org Content-Type: message/delivery-status jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 18:24:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01057 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:24:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01051 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 18:24:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim@localhost.my.domain) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6456.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.48]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA29747; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:22:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA29631; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:23:40 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980717192339.B29560@zappo> Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:23:39 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Sean Eric Fagan , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, ken@plutotech.com Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* References: <199807172019.OAA14508@panzer.plutotech.com> <199807172027.NAA21116@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807172027.NAA21116@kithrup.com>; from Sean Eric Fagan on Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 01:27:58PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 01:27:58PM -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > I don't really have time these days to track down what lists I was on, nor > figure out how to resubscribe to them. Especially when, while it takes no > time to be deleted, it has taken nearly a week to get back on at times. Today Since being involved in a recent thread discussing various possible majordomo features, I've been toying with the idea of automatically checking (and renewing, if necessary) my subscription to mailing-lists. Judging from the last time I was unsubscribed, I suspect it may pay for itself after one FreeBSD.ORG unsubscribbification. :-) OTOH, I will miss the opportunity (provided when I'm unsubscribed) to reread the list of FreeBSD -lists picking random ones to resubscribe to! [If you want, I can happily provide whatever code (procmail) I come-up with to handle this :] -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 19:03:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA03888 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:03:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pobox.com (indobok-104.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.82.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA03883 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:03:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Message-Id: <199807180203.TAA03883@hub.freebsd.org> Received: (qmail 21822 invoked from network); 17 Jul 1998 21:00:28 -0500 Received: from localhost (HELO pobox.com) (127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 17 Jul 1998 21:00:28 -0500 To: Sean Eric Fagan cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 17 Jul 1998 13:27:58 PDT." <199807172027.NAA21116@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 21:00:28 -0500 From: Jon Hamilton Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <199807172027.NAA21116@kithrup.com>, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: } > I can't speak for jmb, since I have no idea why you've gotten } >bumped off the lists. However, I can speak as the administrator of about } >15 different mailing lists. } } Right, I"ve *NEVER* run large mailing lists, I have *NO* idea what it's like. } (He said sarcastically.) Oh, calm down. } My current netconnection is considerably better and more reliable than Walnut } Creek's (not counting ftp.cdrom.com -- if I wanted better connectivity than } that machine, it would cost me a couple hundred a month). I had a brief } period of problems, three days, when my ISP died, but I wasn't removed then-- } I was still getting messages until the middle of last week. } } > I would just ask jmb(@FreeBSD.ORG) why you've been removed from } >the lists. He's the postmaster, and he may remember why he removed you. } } What makes you thnnk I hadn't? It wasn't clear from your message that you had; he was just trying to be helpful. Want to go kick his dog a few times and see if that makes you feel better? -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 19:15:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05053 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:15:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05048 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:15:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA15791; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:15:21 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980718121517.46832@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:15:17 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* References: <199807172019.OAA14508@panzer.plutotech.com> <199807172027.NAA21116@kithrup.com> <19980717192339.B29560@zappo> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19980717192339.B29560@zappo>; from Tim Vanderhoek on Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 07:23:39PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 07:23:39PM -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 01:27:58PM -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > > I don't really have time these days to track down what lists I was on, nor > > figure out how to resubscribe to them. Especially when, while it takes no > > time to be deleted, it has taken nearly a week to get back on at times. Today > > Since being involved in a recent thread discussing various possible > majordomo features, I've been toying with the idea of automatically > checking (and renewing, if necessary) my subscription to mailing-lists. Is there anything wrong with simply sending a subscribe request to majordomo? If you're currently subscribed, majordomo will tell you that. If you're not, it will subscribe you and ask you to confirm. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 19:28:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06139 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:28:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gutenberg.uoregon.edu (gutenberg.uoregon.edu [128.223.56.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06134 for ; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sharding@gutenberg.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (sharding@localhost) by gutenberg.uoregon.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA18158; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:32:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 19:32:00 -0700 From: Sean Harding Reply-To: Sean Harding To: Sue Blake cc: Tim Vanderhoek , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* In-Reply-To: <19980718121517.46832@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 18 Jul 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > Is there anything wrong with simply sending a subscribe request to > majordomo? If you're currently subscribed, majordomo will tell you 'which' will tell you what lists you are on, if that's all you're trying to determine. Sean -- Sean Harding sharding@oregon.uoregon.edu|"It's not a habit, it's cool. http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~sharding/ | I feel alive." NeXTMail OK! | --k's Choice To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 17 22:54:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21674 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:54:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from titus.stade.co.uk (stade.demon.co.uk [158.152.29.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21633; Fri, 17 Jul 1998 22:53:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.stade.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA09568; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 06:50:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Message-ID: <19980718065051.A25700@stade.co.uk> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 06:50:51 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Majordomo [was Re: And it's back] Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk Mail-Followup-To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19980717225920.A1388@stade.co.uk> <199807172331.QAA15220@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i In-Reply-To: <199807172331.QAA15220@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 04:31:23PM -0700 Organization: Stade Computers Ltd, UK X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 04:31:23PM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > wow! please be careful here. i read "aliases files" and > nearly filled my shorts! i dont see how /etc/aliases > could have been affected....majordomo doesnt have root. Sorry - very poor choice of words. > so your list file (or subscribers file) got toasted. > hmm.... Yes. > which version of majordomo? 1.94 (quite old). I seem to recall having seen similar problems with even older majordomos run under SCO Open Server. > are you grouping addresses, say 10 per outbound email, or > are you sending 1 message per address and creating a sendmail > process for each? Grouped - with one outbound mail for the entire list. None of the lists are large. -- Adrian Wontroba, Stade Computers Limited. phone: (+44) 121 681 6677 Mail info@accu.org for information about the Association of C and C++ Users or see To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 03:03:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA07251 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (root@wraith.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.64.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA07246 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:03:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@uow.edu.au) Received: from wumpus.its.uow.edu.au (wumpus.its.uow.edu.au [130.130.68.12]) by wraith.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA23514; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:02:43 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 20:02:43 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@wumpus.its.uow.edu.au To: "L. Brett Glass" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: We are under attack In-Reply-To: <199807161958.MAA17474@well.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 16 Jul 1998, L. Brett Glass wrote: > Our FreeBSD server has been under attack for the past 24 hours by crackers > seeking to exploit a buffer overflow bug in Qualcomm's QPopper POP3 server. > I just got back from a two-week honeymoon and had not heard about the > potential exploit when we got hit. I figured out what was going on from > the system logs, which showed large amounts of bogus input to the daemon. > > The attacks seem to be originating from a domain in New York City; the name > of the system is "eastcoast.hitnet.org" (AKA "hitman.com"). From the sound > of it, this is an organized, nationwide group. They obviously have experience > with FreeBSD, as they compiled Trojan horse versions of at least two system > utilities and replaced the existing ones with them. I realized we'd been > "rooted" when I saw that these files, which were owned by root:wheel, > had been replace. It's good practice not to mention specific host names or IP addresses if such an attack occurs. More often than not the site the attack appears to be coming from is in fact another hacked site which the attackers are bouncing from. Some organisations have been hit with libel suits as a result of such posts (or claimed "defamation"). Also, one does not have to be particularly "organised" or "experienced" in order to install such a kit. I have seen many a "rootkit" that contained instructions even the lamest script kiddie could follow. > --Brett Glass (normally brett@lariat.org) Nick -- Email: ncb05@uow.edu.au - http://rabble.uow.edu.au/~nick Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A "When in doubt, ask someone wiser than yourself..." -unknown To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 07:07:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA22830 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:07:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA22822; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 07:07:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA00129; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:06:51 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA11386; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:06:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980718160650.04158@follo.net> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:06:50 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: quick peek at what can fail in mail References: <199807180020.RAA23512@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199807180020.RAA23512@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 05:20:09PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 05:20:09PM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > anything to go wrong ;) That sort of bounces (FreeBSD DNS related) is because FreeBSD.ORG hasn't got any nameservers in Europe. It Should. Eivind, who unfortunately can't offer, due to knowing his IP address space is likely to change in a short while. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 09:32:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07446 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:32:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.pipeline.ch (intranet.pipeline.ch [195.134.128.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07440; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 09:32:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre@pipeline.ch) Received: from pipeline.ch ([195.134.140.2]) by freefall.pipeline.ch (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA135; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:31:00 +0200 Message-ID: <35B0CE03.68BBA9A9@pipeline.ch> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:32:03 +0200 From: "IBS / Andre Oppermann" Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund CC: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: quick peek at what can fail in mail References: <199807180020.RAA23512@hub.freebsd.org> <19980718160650.04158@follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 05:20:09PM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > > > anything to go wrong ;) > > That sort of bounces (FreeBSD DNS related) is because FreeBSD.ORG > hasn't got any nameservers in Europe. It Should. We can offer secondary nameservice, who is the DNS manager for FreeBSD.org? > Eivind, who unfortunately can't offer, due to knowing his IP address > space is likely to change in a short while. -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 10:27:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10139 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:27:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from usc.usc.unal.edu.co ([200.21.26.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA10133 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 10:27:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from unalmodem12.usc.unal.edu.co by usc.usc.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12696; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:07:31 -0400 Message-Id: <35B0DAA9.C8D1CB59@asme.org> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:26:01 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Pslmpilots and FreeBSD. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Howdy: I'm trying to find out if I should buy a palm pilot-like and which, and I know many people use these with FreeBSD. It would seem like the best option for a FreeBSD user is a 3COM, right ? Should I buy the profesional PalmPilot and later on upgrade 2M, or is the Palm III really worth the higher price from the start? thanks for your help, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 11:31:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13989 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:31:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA13969 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:31:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA01184; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:30:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807181830.LAA01184@implode.root.com> To: tech@cdrom.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: new wcarchive record From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 11:30:42 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We set a new record yesterday on wcarchive... -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: burden@web1.cdrom.com Received: from wcarchive.cdrom.com (wcarchive.cdrom.com [209.155.82.18]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA27055 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:04:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web1.cdrom.com (web1.cdrom.com [209.155.82.19]) by wcarchive.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA10057 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:02:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from burden@localhost) by web1.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA18142 for ftp-stats@ftp.cdrom.com; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:02:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from burden) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 03:02:46 -0700 (PDT) From: John Burden Message-Id: <199807181002.DAA18142@web1.cdrom.com> To: ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com Subject: Dual Log Stats - 1998/07/18 Dual Log Stats : Jul 18 1998 -------------------------------------------------- Current Record Delta --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Bytes 359,781,421,212 359,781,421,212 New Record! Files 849,686 1,315,689 -466,003 FTP Bytes 359,781,421,212 359,781,421,212 New Record! FTP Files 849,686 914,070 -64,384 HTTP Bytes 58,081,249,072 -58,081,249,072 HTTP Files 567,700 -567,700 =============================================================================== Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ /linux 81,216M 81,216M 0M 339,718 339,718 0 22.57 39.98 /planetquake 36,814M 36,814M 0M 18,860 18,860 0 10.23 2.22 /FreeBSD 35,370M 35,370M 0M 205,450 205,450 0 9.83 24.18 /3dfxmania 30,020M 30,020M 0M 9,875 9,875 0 8.34 1.16 /idgames 28,137M 28,137M 0M 12,968 12,968 0 7.82 1.53 /simtelnet 25,908M 25,908M 0M 53,124 53,124 0 7.20 6.25 /gamesdomain 25,025M 25,025M 0M 2,985 2,985 0 6.96 0.35 /cnet 19,922M 19,922M 0M 11,583 11,583 0 5.54 1.36 /games 18,400M 18,400M 0M 13,256 13,256 0 5.11 1.56 /demos 13,712M 13,712M 0M 29,662 29,662 0 3.81 3.49 /idgames2 12,825M 12,825M 0M 38,259 38,259 0 3.56 4.50 /3drealms 10,121M 10,121M 0M 18,144 18,144 0 2.81 2.14 /XFree86 3,672M 3,672M 0M 4,199 4,199 0 1.02 0.49 /audio 2,833M 2,833M 0M 10,120 10,120 0 0.79 1.19 /dresden 2,453M 2,453M 0M 3,591 3,591 0 0.68 0.42 /unreal 2,328M 2,328M 0M 4,365 4,365 0 0.65 0.51 /artpacks 1,824M 1,824M 0M 3,611 3,611 0 0.51 0.42 /sac 1,106M 1,106M 0M 2,239 2,239 0 0.31 0.26 /tex 1,058M 1,058M 0M 25,970 25,970 0 0.29 3.06 /ARCHIVE 651M 651M 0M 1,072 1,072 0 0.18 0.13 /japanese 625M 625M 0M 578 578 0 0.17 0.07 /gt 459M 459M 0M 80 80 0 0.13 0.01 /bsd-sources 444M 444M 0M 58 58 0 0.12 0.01 /perl 437M 437M 0M 5,767 5,767 0 0.12 0.68 /abuse 395M 395M 0M 204 204 0 0.11 0.02 /delphi 394M 394M 0M 6,190 6,190 0 0.11 0.73 /povray 386M 386M 0M 1,692 1,692 0 0.11 0.20 /gnu 311M 311M 0M 373 373 0 0.09 0.04 /cheats 297M 297M 0M 1,194 1,194 0 0.08 0.14 /NetBSD 285M 285M 0M 4,399 4,399 0 0.08 0.52 /novell 271M 271M 0M 999 999 0 0.08 0.12 /os2 226M 226M 0M 1,525 1,525 0 0.06 0.18 /gutenberg 214M 214M 0M 1,157 1,157 0 0.06 0.14 /irc 207M 207M 0M 721 721 0 0.06 0.08 /unixfreeware 202M 202M 0M 474 474 0 0.06 0.06 /delphideli 172M 172M 0M 1,304 1,304 0 0.05 0.15 /languages 165M 165M 0M 657 657 0 0.05 0.08 /infozip 146M 146M 0M 952 952 0 0.04 0.11 /X11 88M 88M 0M 2,731 2,731 0 0.02 0.32 /garbo 87M 87M 0M 468 468 0 0.02 0.06 /avalon 70M 70M 0M 616 616 0 0.02 0.07 /security 60M 60M 0M 296 296 0 0.02 0.03 /cdrom 58M 58M 0M 1,118 1,118 0 0.02 0.13 /java 51M 51M 0M 361 361 0 0.01 0.04 /gus 39M 39M 0M 144 144 0 0.01 0.02 /x2ftp 36M 36M 0M 269 269 0 0.01 0.03 /asme 35M 35M 0M 270 270 0 0.01 0.03 /tcl 27M 27M 0M 136 136 0 0.01 0.02 /tomahawk 27M 27M 0M 95 95 0 0.01 0.01 /mozilla 22M 22M 0M 19 19 0 0.01 0.00 /algorithms 19M 19M 0M 3,314 3,314 0 0.01 0.39 /hamradio 17M 17M 0M 568 568 0 0.00 0.07 /beos 16M 16M 0M 79 79 0 0.00 0.01 /4cust 13M 13M 0M 10 10 0 0.00 0.00 /mac 11M 11M 0M 85 85 0 0.00 0.01 /math 9M 9M 0M 149 149 0 0.00 0.02 /obi 6M 6M 0M 133 133 0 0.00 0.02 /python 6M 6M 0M 60 60 0 0.00 0.01 /sde 6M 6M 0M 9 9 0 0.00 0.00 /internet 5M 5M 0M 149 149 0 0.00 0.02 /ARCHIVE-INFO 3M 3M 0M 459 459 0 0.00 0.05 /MacSciTech 3M 3M 0M 29 29 0 0.00 0.00 /unix-c 2M 2M 0M 50 50 0 0.00 0.01 /PUB 2M 2M 0M 368 368 0 0.00 0.04 /png 1M 1M 0M 93 93 0 0.00 0.01 /viseng 942k 942k 0k 39 39 0 0.00 0.00 /netlib 926k 926k 0k 88 88 0 0.00 0.01 /games_patches 70k 70k 0k 40 40 0 0.00 0.00 /ETC 23k 23k 0k 66 66 0 0.00 0.01 - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ 69 archives 359,781M 359,781M 0M 849,686 849,686 0 ~100.0 ~100.0 (k) = 1,000 bytes (M) = 1,000,000 bytes =============================================================================== Yesterday Average (30 days) Delta - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 849,686 619,112 230,574 Hits (HTTP) 251,817 -251,817 Hits (combo) 849,686 870,930 -21,244 Bytes (FTP) 359,781,421,212 282,740,689,577 77,040,731,635 Bytes (HTTP) 17,281,250,563 -17,281,250,563 Bytes (combo) 359,781,421,212 300,021,940,140 59,759,481,072 Past 7 Days Past 30 Days Since 26 Feb 1997 - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 4,962,729 18,573,371 220,779,192 Hits (HTTP) 0 7,554,537 154,476,821 Hits (combo) 4,962,729 26,127,908 375,256,023 Bytes (FTP) 2,227,751,413,291 8,482,220,687,331 89,831,773,471,775 Bytes (HTTP) 0 518,437,516,898 10,106,100,542,342 Bytes (combo) 2,227,751,413,291 9,000,658,204,229 99,937,874,014,017 ------- End of Forwarded Message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 12:36:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAB19003 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:36:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA18998 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:36:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tim@localhost.my.domain) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6422.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.14]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11000; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:36:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11967; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:05:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980718130544.A11959@zappo> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:05:44 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Sue Blake Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dropped of the lists, *AGAIN* References: <199807172019.OAA14508@panzer.plutotech.com> <199807172027.NAA21116@kithrup.com> <19980717192339.B29560@zappo> <19980718121517.46832@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980718121517.46832@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 12:15:17PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 12:15:17PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > Is there anything wrong with simply sending a subscribe request to > majordomo? If you're currently subscribed, majordomo will tell you > that. If you're not, it will subscribe you and ask you to confirm. Yea. It's a PITA, particularly with the confirmation-requests it does now. And keeping track of which high-volume mailing-lists have been strangely silent is harder to do in your head than in a script. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 12:40:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19405 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:40:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from webserv.nlc-bnc.ca (webserv.nlc-bnc.ca [142.78.40.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19387 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 12:40:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sitespeed@leadsearch.com) From: sitespeed@leadsearch.com Message-Id: <199807181940.MAA19387@hub.freebsd.org> Received: from webserv.nlc-bnc.ca ([205.241.121.92]) by webserv.nlc-bnc.ca (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAJ28127; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:24:09 -0400 To: recipient@mailbox.com Date: Sat, 18 Jul 98 13:12:52 EST Subject: Speed up your website Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Speed your site with SiteSpeed For all you web designers who have cool sites, but not much action, SiteSpeed compresses your site's graphics so they download from two to five times faster, without sacrificing your image's screen size, or quality. In addition to image compression, SiteSpeed also provides you with an FTP interface to transfer images to and from your internet provider, and helpful tips and tricks for speeding up your site through proper design. Come check out our site at http://www.leadsearch.com/sitespeed We're speeding up the web one page at a time... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message complies with the proposed United States Federal requirements for commercial email bill, Section 301. For additional info see: http://www.senate.gov/~murkowski/commercialemail/EMailAmendText.html SiteSpeed 12 Greenway Plaza, 11th Floor Houston, TX 77046 713-871-5WEB Per Section 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of S. 1618, further transmissions to you by the sender of this email may be stopped at no cost to you by sending a reply to this email address with the word "remove" in the subject line. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 13:31:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24646 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:31:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24640 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:31:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24037; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:31:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35B1061F.F3D0BF2C@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:31:27 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pslmpilots and FreeBSD. References: <35B0DAA9.C8D1CB59@asme.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > Howdy: > I'm trying to find out if I should buy a palm pilot-like and which, and > I know many people use these with FreeBSD. It would seem like the best > option for a FreeBSD user is a 3COM, right ? > Should I buy the profesional PalmPilot and later on upgrade 2M, or is > the Palm III really worth the higher price from the start? The other big difference between the Pro and III is the IR port. If you're planning on doing some development work for Pilot, an IR sync program for FreeBSD would be completely, totally cool. ;^) Did you catch the misspelling in your Subject line? When I first read it, I wondered if 3Com had come up with a special version for Judeo-Christian users, the PsalmPilot. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 13:56:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27447 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:56:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA27442 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 13:56:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12812; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:56:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807182056.OAA12812@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 14:51:38 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Spam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just got an obnoxious spam care of this list. Why are these being allowed through? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 15:03:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03698 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:03:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA03693 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 15:03:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id AAA07647 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 00:03:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id XAA01529 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:42:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980718234258.A1526@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:42:58 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pslmpilots and FreeBSD. Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org References: <35B0DAA9.C8D1CB59@asme.org> <35B1061F.F3D0BF2C@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i In-Reply-To: <35B1061F.F3D0BF2C@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 02:31:27PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4462 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Wes Peters: > The other big difference between the Pro and III is the IR port. If > you're planning on doing some development work for Pilot, an IR sync > program for FreeBSD would be completely, totally cool. ;^) The upgrade from PPro to PIII includes the IR port (in fact it is already on the "motherboard" on the PPro). The various serial hotsync programs work pretty well. I've tried the Perl-based one, PilotManager. Works fine. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #61: Sun Jul 12 14:38:23 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 16:31:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10143 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:31:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from usc.usc.unal.edu.co ([200.21.26.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA10128 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 16:30:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from giffunip@asme.org) Received: from unalmodem16.usc.unal.edu.co by usc.usc.unal.edu.co (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA05540; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:09:36 -0400 Message-Id: <35B12B8C.F71CB0FA@asme.org> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:11:08 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pslmpilots and FreeBSD. References: <35B0DAA9.C8D1CB59@asme.org> <35B1061F.F3D0BF2C@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters wrote: > Did you catch the misspelling in your Subject line? When I first > read it, I wondered if 3Com had come up with a special version for > Judeo-Christian users, the PsalmPilot. ;^) > (Hmm...I won't change it so that it keeps on the same thread on my mailer)Hadn't noticed, thanks...Anyway, I played a bit with the java demo, and I suspect it will become a religion sooner or later, something like soccer in Brazil :-). I wonder how would I physically read and write new email? Can I upload and download my email using FreeBSD ? Their site states that after the upgrade of the Palm Pro you get the complete power of the Palm III, but can the Palm III be expanded further...(like for example, to keep the FreeBSD mailing lists in memory :- ) ? I dunno, perhaps I'm looking for a FreeBSD based PDA..., I'd buy it without thinking thanks, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 17:42:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15597 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:42:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terror.hungry.com (qmailr@terror.hungry.com [199.181.107.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA15544 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:42:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fn@hungry.com) Received: (qmail 12893 invoked by uid 507); 19 Jul 1998 00:41:40 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spam References: <199807182056.OAA12812@lariat.lariat.org> From: Faried Nawaz Date: 18 Jul 1998 17:41:38 -0700 In-Reply-To: brett@lariat.org's message of 18 Jul 1998 13:56:23 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 6 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.37/XEmacs 19.16 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) writes: Just got an obnoxious spam care of this list. Why are these being allowed through? How does one drop all spam? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 17:53:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16509 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:53:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from priscilla.mu.org (paul@priscilla.mu.org [206.156.231.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16504 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 17:53:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@priscilla.mu.org) Received: (from paul@localhost) by priscilla.mu.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA04568 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:53:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from paul) Message-ID: <19980718195306.A4564@mu.org> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:53:06 -0500 From: Paul Saab To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: oracle 8 to be shipped for Linux Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hopefully we can run it under emulation: http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?980717.whorlinux.htm Paul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 18:23:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18466 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:23:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA18460 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 18:23:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA18723; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:23:23 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980719112320.62786@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:23:20 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Faried Nawaz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spam References: <199807182056.OAA12812@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Faried Nawaz on Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 05:41:38PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 05:41:38PM -0700, Faried Nawaz wrote: > > > How does one drop all spam? Flick the spam switch. It's that big red one on the front of the computer. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 19:07:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20765 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:07:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20754 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:07:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id EAA17986 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 04:07:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from roberto@localhost) by keltia.freenix.fr (8.9.0.Beta4/keltia-2.14/nospam) id BAA02237 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 01:46:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Message-ID: <19980719014611.A2227@keltia.freenix.fr> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 01:46:11 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pslmpilots and FreeBSD. Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org References: <35B0DAA9.C8D1CB59@asme.org> <35B1061F.F3D0BF2C@softweyr.com> <35B12B8C.F71CB0FA@asme.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i In-Reply-To: <35B12B8C.F71CB0FA@asme.org>; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 06:11:08PM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT ctm#4462 AMD-K6 MMX @ 225 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Pedro F. Giffuni: > I wonder how would I physically read and write new email? Can I upload and > download my email using FreeBSD ? Yes, there are several IMAP/POP clients, even one with support for 4 different accounts. The PIII has a complete TCP/IP stack and you get PPP/SLIP. > Their site states that after the upgrade of the Palm Pro you get the > complete power of the Palm III, but can the Palm III be expanded > further...(like for example, to keep the FreeBSD mailing lists in memory :- There is a 8 MB RAM card. There is even a Linux version for it (although without memory protection, the 68k processor in the Pilot lakcing a MMU). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #61: Sun Jul 12 14:38:23 CEST 1998 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 19:12:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21100 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:12:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from id.hungry.com (id.hungry.com [199.181.107.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA21094 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 19:12:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from self@id.hungry.com) From: self@id.hungry.com Received: (qmail 6072 invoked by uid 100); 19 Jul 1998 02:10:38 -0000 Date: 19 Jul 1998 02:10:37 -0000 Message-ID: <19980719021037.6071.qmail@id.hungry.com> To: sue@welearn.com.au CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Sue Blake's message of Sun, 19 Jul 1998 11:23:20 +1000 <19980719112320.62786@welearn.com.au> Subject: Spam Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks, but I was being rhetorical. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 21:30:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29878 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:30:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29873 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:30:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24555; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:29:34 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35B1762D.95EA9AA1@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:29:33 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ollivier Robert CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pslmpilots and FreeBSD. References: <35B0DAA9.C8D1CB59@asme.org> <35B1061F.F3D0BF2C@softweyr.com> <35B12B8C.F71CB0FA@asme.org> <19980719014611.A2227@keltia.freenix.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ollivier Robert wrote: > > According to Pedro F. Giffuni: > > I wonder how would I physically read and write new email? Can I upload and > > download my email using FreeBSD ? > > Yes, there are several IMAP/POP clients, even one with support for 4 > different accounts. The PIII has a complete TCP/IP stack and you get > PPP/SLIP. This certainly sounds like the way to go. Anyone got a PPro they want to sell? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 21:49:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01002 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:49:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (root@bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00996 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 21:49:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (willow10.verinet.com [199.45.181.42]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id WAA27918; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:49:16 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22461; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:49:02 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Message-ID: <19980718224902.A21361@verinet.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:49:02 -0600 From: allen campbell To: Paul Saab Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: oracle 8 to be shipped for Linux References: <19980718195306.A4564@mu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980718195306.A4564@mu.org>; from Paul Saab on Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 07:53:06PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 07:53:06PM -0500, Paul Saab wrote: > Hopefully we can run it under emulation: > http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayStory.pl?980717.whorlinux.htm Speculation at slashdot.org is Oracle will use raw devices for its Linux tablespaces. Apparently the ext2fs is limited to < 2G files. I would guess (because I really don't know) that this would pose a significant emulation problem. Speculation by someone who does know would be greatly appreciated. Jordan's recent advocacy at www.freshmeat.net for solid Linux emulation (among many other things) is very relevant here. I have been advocating FreeBSD and Linux to my employers and colleagues for some time now. I am _certain_ that this will go a long way towards acceptance. I advocate Oracle on anything other that NT anyhow; it would be nice to see FreeBSD get a piece of this. I think this lends a great deal of credibility to Linux, and indirectly FreeBSD. When I attended the May OAUG in San Diego (Oracle Applications User Group,) a presenter mentioned her preference for Unix as a production platform over NT during her config and sizing presentation. This evoked enthusiastic applause from several hundred Oracle DBA types. This market will definitely take notice of Linux as an alternative to NT for smaller vertical applications that use Oracle. This is one place NT is gaining a lot of market in otherwise Unix shops (and disappointing a lot of DBAs.) I have little doubt Linux (and hopefully FreeBSD) can do better. According to the Infoworld article, Oracle will make its official announcement Tuesday. It will be quite something to browse into the download/demo pages at www.Oracle.com and see Linux alongside Sun and Microsoft. I doubt I'll download the demo; I'll probably just buy it ASAP and run whatever I have too to make it work. :) -- Allen Campbell allenc@verinet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 18 22:47:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03934 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:47:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03929 for ; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 22:47:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24653; Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:47:14 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35B18861.168DAB55@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 18 Jul 1998 23:47:13 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: allen campbell CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: oracle 8 to be shipped for Linux References: <19980718195306.A4564@mu.org> <19980718224902.A21361@verinet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org allen campbell wrote: > > Speculation at slashdot.org is Oracle will use raw devices for its > Linux tablespaces. Apparently the ext2fs is limited to < 2G files. > I would guess (because I really don't know) that this would pose > a significant emulation problem. Speculation by someone who does > know would be greatly appreciated. Jordan's recent advocacy at > www.freshmeat.net for solid Linux emulation (among many other > things) is very relevant here. The use of raw devices makes limitations of ext2fs unimportant; if you use a raw device, you won't have a filesystem on it. Typically Oracle can run with either a file or a raw device. The raw device is accessed with open(2), read(2), and write(2), and thus depends only on the block disk device driver. > I have been advocating FreeBSD and Linux to my employers and > colleagues for some time now. I am _certain_ that this will go a > long way towards acceptance. I advocate Oracle on anything other > that NT anyhow; it would be nice to see FreeBSD get a piece of > this. Yeah, this is great: now we have an application that can make even FreeBSD look slow. ;^) > I think this lends a great deal of credibility to Linux, and > indirectly FreeBSD. When I attended the May OAUG in San Diego > (Oracle Applications User Group,) a presenter mentioned her preference > for Unix as a production platform over NT during her config and > sizing presentation. This evoked enthusiastic applause from several > hundred Oracle DBA types. This market will definitely take notice > of Linux as an alternative to NT for smaller vertical applications > that use Oracle. This is one place NT is gaining a lot of market > in otherwise Unix shops (and disappointing a lot of DBAs.) I have > little doubt Linux (and hopefully FreeBSD) can do better. A friend of mine is a sysadmin at a big HP and Oracle shop. One organization developed an application using NT and MS-SQL Server, because they thought they were going to save a ton of money. When they fielded it, it didn't last three hours under the load thrown at it. They ended up redeveloping it on Oracle and HP-UX, and moving it to a part of a server owned by another group. Oracle on an Pentium 200 or K6 probably could have handled their load, they had a max of 12 users poking at the database. ;^) > According to the Infoworld article, Oracle will make its official > announcement Tuesday. It will be quite something to browse into > the download/demo pages at www.Oracle.com and see Linux alongside > Sun and Microsoft. I doubt I'll download the demo; I'll probably > just buy it ASAP and run whatever I have too to make it work. :) I'm anxious to try it under Linux emulation. I'll probably poke and prod at the demo version for a little while; I've got an OpenLinux 1.2 system at work to hack on if needed. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message