From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 19 02:23:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21781 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:23:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (sac-port400.jps.net [209.63.247.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA21775 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:23:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id CAA05145 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:25:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980719022528.A4451@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:25:28 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spam References: <199807182056.OAA12812@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Faried Nawaz on Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 05:41:38PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jul 18, 1998 at 05:41:38PM -0700, Faried Nawaz wrote: > > How does one drop all spam? Gravity? Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 19 02:34:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA23214 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:34:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22733; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 02:30:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA28776; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 04:26:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980719042614.00605@futuresouth.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 04:26:14 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Scott Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: pr440fx and sound References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Scott on Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:22:01PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org NOTE: this started on -current, but it's not about current (and I'm not using current on this machine), and it doesn't fit too well anywhere else, so here it is on -chat. Bcc'd to multimedia incase anyone's interested On Sun, Jul 05, 1998 at 11:22:01PM -0400, Scott woke me up to tell me: > > Has anyone ever gotten the sound on the pr440fx (onboard crystal cs4236) > to work? > > I've been playing with this one for a few months. I was hoping there might > be something documented somewhere. I just got it to work. It's been being detected for a week, but I finally got it working: device pcm0 at isa? port 0x530 tty irq 5 drq 1 flags 0x0 vector pcmintr (one line, of course) And NO controller pnp0. With the pnp controller in, it would grok this as pcm1, and I couldn't for the life of me convince anything (mxaudio in particular) to use pcm0 instead of pcm1. I don't know how to use the standard sound drivers to run it, but it's working, and I'm happily listening to Foo Fighters ATM ;) *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 19 07:36:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18689 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 07:36:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dns.webwizard.net.mx (mexcom.net.mx [207.249.162.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18682 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 07:36:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eculp@webwizard.org.mx) Received: from pc_alfa.pue.udlap.mx (ppp-5.mexcom.net [206.103.65.197]) by dns.webwizard.net.mx (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id JAA12891; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:35:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <35B204FF.3D39BD28@webwizard.org.mx> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 09:38:55 -0500 From: Edwin Culp Organization: Mexico Communicates, S.C. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" CC: Scott , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: pr440fx and sound X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19980719042614.00605@futuresouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I just got it to work. mine works with pnp and linking audio dsp dspW etc to the correct device, but the quality sucks. How's yours with mp3 files? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 19 13:32:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18267 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:32:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from locnar.336.net (root@locnar.336.net [207.69.181.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18262 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 13:32:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sevn@336.net) Received: from locnar.336.net (sevn@locnar.336.net [207.69.181.130]) by locnar.336.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA17626; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:31:27 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from sevn@336.net) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 16:31:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Scott To: Edwin Culp cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: pr440fx and sound In-Reply-To: <35B204FF.3D39BD28@webwizard.org.mx> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I got mine working a little while ago and noticed the sound quality was aweful. I don't have what you'd call a critical ear when it comes to sound quality, but it was really scratchy. I ended up picking up an SB32 at auction and following the instructions for the sb16 PnP kernel config. Now everything is working great. Thanks to all the people that offered suggestions on getting the onboard chip to work though. Scott Wilson On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Edwin Culp wrote: > > I just got it to work. > > mine works with pnp and linking audio dsp dspW etc to the correct > device, but > the quality sucks. How's yours with mp3 files? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 19 15:03:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29539 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:03:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA29534 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 15:03:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA15433; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:03:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980719170313.28607@futuresouth.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 17:03:13 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Scott Cc: Edwin Culp , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: pr440fx and sound References: <35B204FF.3D39BD28@webwizard.org.mx> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Scott on Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 04:31:27PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 04:31:27PM -0400, Scott woke me up to tell me: > > I got mine working a little while ago and noticed the sound quality > was aweful. I don't have what you'd call a critical ear when it comes to > sound quality, but it was really scratchy. I ended up picking up an SB32 > at auction and following the instructions for the sb16 PnP kernel config. > Now everything is working great. Thanks to all the people that offered > suggestions on getting the onboard chip to work though. > > On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Edwin Culp wrote: > > > > mine works with pnp and linking audio dsp dspW etc to the correct > > device, but > > the quality sucks. How's yours with mp3 files? Sounds pretty good, actually mxaudio is running in stereo, and it's eating a whopping 8% of CPU time. I have a fairly decent ear for sound, having spent a good bit of time running audio production etc, and it sounds nicely CD-quality. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 19 18:09:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21330 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:09:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21321; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:09:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807200109.SAA21321@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: quick peek at what can fail in mail In-Reply-To: <35B0CE03.68BBA9A9@pipeline.ch> from IBS / Andre Oppermann at "Jul 18, 98 06:32:03 pm" To: andre@pipeline.ch (IBS / Andre Oppermann) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Cc: eivind@yes.no, jmb@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org IBS / Andre Oppermann wrote: > Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 05:20:09PM -0700, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > > > > > > anything to go wrong ;) > > > > That sort of bounces (FreeBSD DNS related) is because FreeBSD.ORG > > hasn't got any nameservers in Europe. It Should. > > We can offer secondary nameservice, who is the DNS manager for > FreeBSD.org? David Greenman...davidg@freebsd.org. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 19 18:15:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22195 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:15:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22189; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:15:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807200115.SAA22189@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Spam In-Reply-To: <199807182056.OAA12812@lariat.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Jul 18, 98 02:51:38 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 18:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Just got an obnoxious spam care of this list. Why are these being allowed > through? which obnoxious spam was it? if you are referring to leadsearch.com, they have been added to the list of blocked sites. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 19 21:18:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17198 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:18:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17193 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:18:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id VAA07450 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:18:16 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id VAA22767 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:18:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:15:12 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK I am not really "hacking" per se. Following Mr. Hubbard's comments on his recent editorial, I am reusing code. This contest has provided an impetus for me to finally nail down the fine details of my X desktop. I have tried many of the ports looking for that right combination of utility and sexy. I am getting pretty close now. I just have to tell everyone who doesn't already know. TKDESK ROCKS. TKGOOSDSTUFF ROCKS TOO. (Yes caps, I really like 'em.) The two apps should be on everyones desktop. (Too bad motif is proprietary. I have pretty much neglected motif apps for this philosophical reason.) The coolness of these tk products kinda makes me wonder why the KDE crowd is doing things the way they do. KDE seems to me to be a huge effort to redo things that have already been done. TkDesk really kicks KFM in the behind IMHO. Also, Tcl/Tk doesn't have the encumberances that Qt has. I have a few more weeks until the DDD. (snicker, I love acronyms) A simple combination of Fvwm2, TkDesk, TkGoodStuff and some configuration is looking reaaaallly nice. See you in August. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 19 21:21:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17709 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:21:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp13.bellglobal.com (smtp13.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17702 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:21:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1568.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.32]) by smtp13.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA14197; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 00:20:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA23216; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:22:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:22:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 19 Jul 1998, Jason C. Wells wrote: > I have a few more weeks until the DDD. (snicker, I love acronyms) A simple Hmm... I'd bet on Desktop Deadline Date. :) -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jul 19 21:48:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21604 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:48:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21598 for ; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 21:48:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA26198; Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:48:27 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35B2CC1B.5D2ECFBE@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 22:48:27 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells wrote: > > OK I am not really "hacking" per se. Following Mr. Hubbard's comments on > his recent editorial, I am reusing code. > > This contest has provided an impetus for me to finally nail down the fine > details of my X desktop. I have tried many of the ports looking for that > right combination of utility and sexy. I am getting pretty close now. I'm glad someone is doing it. I was thinking about packaging up my desktop and sending it in, just to kick start the contest. It's not too fancy, but it works. I basically consists of Enlightenment, Emacs, and Netscape, with the "SwingMetal" theme slightly customized to my needs. We need more submissions, folks. Grab your CD, put E! or TkDesk or Fvwm or whatever on your desktop, hack around a bit, and submit it. I'd really like for someone to submit a complete, working KDE environment just to compare against. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 20 02:01:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA12977 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:01:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw-nl1.philips.com (gw-nl1.philips.com [192.68.44.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA12972 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Jos.Backus@nl.origin-it.com) Received: from smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-nl1.philips.com with ESMTP id LAA29367 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:00:59 +0200 (MEST) (envelope-from Jos.Backus@nl.origin-it.com) Received: from hal.mpn.cp.philips.com (hal.mpn.cp.philips.com [130.139.64.195]) by smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (8.8.5/8.6.10-1.2.2m-970826) with SMTP id LAA07218 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:00:59 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (qmail 2630 invoked by uid 666); 20 Jul 1998 08:58:47 -0000 Message-ID: <19980720105847.A2509@mpn.cp.philips.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:58:47 +0200 From: Jos Backus To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Let's close the door to "stack hacks" References: <199807171948.NAA19746@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <199807171948.NAA19746@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Jul 17, 1998 at 01:47:34PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As an aside, I believe this is one of the reasons Dan Bernstein (of qmail fame) uses his own routines to do file/char/string/memops instead of those provided by libc. Cheers, -- Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ "Reliability means never _/ _/ _/ having to say you're sorry." _/ _/_/_/ -- D. J. Bernstein _/ _/ _/ _/ Jos.Backus@nl.origin-it.com _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 20 02:28:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA14171 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:28:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freefall.pipeline.ch (intranet.pipeline.ch [195.134.128.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA14166 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:28:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre@pipeline.ch) Received: from pipeline.ch ([195.134.128.41]) by freefall.pipeline.ch (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA195; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:26:47 +0200 Message-ID: <35B30D5C.D0D0B8E2@pipeline.ch> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:26:52 +0200 From: "IBS / Andre Oppermann" Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jos Backus CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Let's close the door to "stack hacks" References: <199807171948.NAA19746@lariat.lariat.org> <19980720105847.A2509@mpn.cp.philips.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jos Backus wrote: > > As an aside, I believe this is one of the reasons Dan Bernstein (of qmail > fame) uses his own routines to do file/char/string/memops instead of those > provided by libc. Yea, but it's really hard to read it in the beginning. He uses always a structure containing the data and the length. All return values are checked, at least 70% of the 'if' statements are for error checking. Sometimes he does really fancy things with it; eg. he builds up a 'structure' with "string1"NULL"string2"NULL"string3" and the length of it. First he does "x = structure" to assign the first part of the 'structure' and after that he scans for NULL until he reaches the end indicated by length. This works and is perfectly legal in C, but a little bit obfuscated and very hard to read and understand (and he doesn't comment his code). BTW, he had won the 'Best of Show award' of the 'International Obfuscated C Code Contest' back in 1991. I think he hasn't really recovered from that... (http://reality.sgi.com/csp/ioccc/years.html#1991_brnstnd) BTW, the 1998 contest is looking for judges, I think the FreeBSD community has enough high profile C jugglers to get the whole contest... ;-) In case you are interested, mailto judges@toad.com. (http://reality.sgi.com/csp/ioccc/news/24jun98.html) -- Andre Oppermann CEO / Geschaeftsfuehrer Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) Hardstrasse 235, 8005 Zurich, Switzerland Fon +41 1 277 75 75 / Fax +41 1 277 75 77 http://www.pipeline.ch ibs@pipeline.ch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 20 02:34:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA14401 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:34:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgate.cadence.com (mailgate.Cadence.COM [158.140.2.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA14396 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:34:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: (from smap@localhost) by mailgate.cadence.com (8.8.5/8.6.8) id CAA14624; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 02:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807200934.CAA14624@mailgate.cadence.com> Received: from unknown(194.32.96.136) by mailgate.cadence.com via smap (mjr-v1.2) id xma900927266.014621; Mon, 20 Jul 98 02:34:26 -0700 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Duncan Barclay" To: "IBS / Andre Oppermann" Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 10:34:11 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Let's close the door to "stack hacks" Reply-to: dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <35B30D5C.D0D0B8E2@pipeline.ch> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.53/R1) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Jos Backus wrote: > > > > As an aside, I believe this is one of the reasons Dan Bernstein (of qmail > > fame) uses his own routines to do file/char/string/memops instead of those > > provided by libc. What about ripping the dynmic string routines out of Tcl, these malloc themselves and provide a clean API for creation and deletion? Duncan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 20 06:22:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA04771 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 06:22:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc8.ihf.RWTH-Aachen.DE [134.130.90.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA04719; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 06:22:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tg@ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de) Received: from ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de [134.130.90.6]) by ghpc8.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id PAA15057; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:18:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from tg@localhost) by ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id PAA12219; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:18:14 +0200 (CEST) To: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) Cc: jkh@time.cdrom.com, mph@pobox.com, kuriyama@sky.rim.or.jp, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Release schedule References: <199807201256.FAA18996@silvia.HIP.Berkeley.EDU> From: Thomas Gellekum Date: 20 Jul 1998 15:18:09 +0200 In-Reply-To: asami@FreeBSD.ORG's message of "Mon, 20 Jul 1998 05:56:48 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: <87iuksfyp9.fsf@ghpc6.ihf.rwth-aachen.de> Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi Asami) writes: > Gee, I'd really appreciate it if people send such important > announcements to the lists. "End of July" just doesn't have the same > urgency as "6PM on 20th" (which doesn't sound like "end" anyway...). > > At any rate, I just got back from my honeymoon, Gee, I'd really appreciate it if people send such important announcements to -chat. Congratulations. :-) tg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 20 14:10:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15266 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:10:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oldyeller.comtest.com (oahu-197.u.aloha.net [207.12.0.197]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA15238 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 14:10:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from randal@comtest.com) Received: from graphics.comtest.com (graphics.comtest.com [206.127.245.194]) by oldyeller.comtest.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA18217; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:17:55 -1000 (HST) (envelope-from randal@comtest.com) Message-Id: <199807202117.LAA18217@oldyeller.comtest.com> From: "Randal S. Masutani" Organization: ComTest Technologies, Inc. To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:12:46 -1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: new wcarchive record Reply-to: randal@comtest.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199807181830.LAA01184@implode.root.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 Jul 98, at 11:30, David Greenman wrote: > We set a new record yesterday on wcarchive... > > -DG What software are you using to collect these stats and are the reports generated automatically? Randal ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ComTest Technologies, Inc. 3049 Ualena St., Suite 1005 Honolulu, Hawaii 96819 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jul 20 15:06:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24681 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:06:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA24675 for ; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 15:06:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA02588; Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:06:20 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980720170620.24929@futuresouth.com> Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:06:20 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Wes Peters Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest References: <35B2CC1B.5D2ECFBE@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <35B2CC1B.5D2ECFBE@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 10:48:27PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 10:48:27PM -0600, Wes Peters woke me up to tell me: > Jason C. Wells wrote: > > > > OK I am not really "hacking" per se. Following Mr. Hubbard's comments on > > his recent editorial, I am reusing code. > > > > This contest has provided an impetus for me to finally nail down the fine > > details of my X desktop. I have tried many of the ports looking for that > > right combination of utility and sexy. I am getting pretty close now. > > I'm glad someone is doing it. I was thinking about packaging up my desktop > and sending it in, just to kick start the contest. It's not too fancy, > but it works. I basically consists of Enlightenment, Emacs, and Netscape, > with the "SwingMetal" theme slightly customized to my needs. > > We need more submissions, folks. Grab your CD, put E! or TkDesk or Fvwm > or whatever on your desktop, hack around a bit, and submit it. I'd really > like for someone to submit a complete, working KDE environment just to > compare against. Gee.... I use twm (I want an Icon Manager for my Icon Managers!), I have a disgustingly simple sh script to rotate pictures in my background, I have about 13 xbiffs, an xpostit, and an icon manager running off the bottom of the screen despite have another one on the other side of the screen. I don't think it qualifies as a 'scheme', more like a 'DIP' (disaster in progress) Which reminds me, has anyone seen a problem with xpostit's menu stopping working sometimes randomly? *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 02:03:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA10941 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:03:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA10923 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:03:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@oslo.sl.slb.com) Received: from sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (sunw110 [192.23.231.54]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA09850 ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:01:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA22014; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 11:01:38 +0200 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Wes Peters , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest References: <35B2CC1B.5D2ECFBE@softweyr.com> <19980720170620.24929@futuresouth.com> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 21 Jul 1998 11:01:38 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Matthew D. Fuller"'s message of Mon, 20 Jul 1998 17:06:20 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 30 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > I use twm (I want an Icon Manager for my Icon Managers!), I have a > disgustingly simple sh script to rotate pictures in my background, I have > about 13 xbiffs, an xpostit, and an icon manager running off the bottom > of the screen despite have another one on the other side of the screen. Bah, tvtwm rules. I have a hacked version of tvtwm (I added functions to move the pointer so I can bind them to keys; it works well except that the title bar highlight doesn't get updated properly when you move the pointer out of a window). I use the largest "Powered by FreeBSD" logo as background for my pager, the "Chuck on a rock staring at the moon" picture as desktop background, and tvtwm's built-in icon manager (the same as twm's) No xbiff, no xclock, no xload (where the h* is xload? it's not in /usr/X11R6/bin any more, and I can't find xfontsel either), nothing but xconsole, xterm, emacs 19.34 and an occasional Netscape Navigator. At University, I use plain twm, xwatch (a hacked-up xbiff), xclock and xload in the corner next to the icon manager, and nothing but xconsole, xterm, emacs 19.34 and an occasional Netscape Navigator. At work, I use plain twm, xbaff (another hacked-up xbiff), xclock and xload in the corner next to the icon manager, and nothing but xconsole, xterm, emacs 19.34 and an occasional Netscape Navigator. I don't think my desktops are worth submitting :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 02:38:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA16466 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:38:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA16453 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:38:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from (ragnet.demon.co.uk) [158.152.46.40] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yyYsC-0007bF-00; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:38:17 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yyYrX-0005xp-00; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:37:35 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:37:34 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: (Dag-Erling Coidan Smrgrav) Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jason C. Wells" , Wes Peters , "Matthew D. Fuller" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Jul-98 Dag-Erling Coidan Smrgrav wrote: > > Bah, tvtwm rules. I have a hacked version of tvtwm (I added functions > to move the pointer so I can bind them to keys; it works well except > that the title bar highlight doesn't get updated properly when you > move the pointer out of a window). I use the largest "Powered by > FreeBSD" logo as background for my pager, the "Chuck on a rock staring > at the moon" picture as desktop background, and tvtwm's built-in icon > manager (the same as twm's) No xbiff, no xclock, no xload (where the > h* is xload? it's not in /usr/X11R6/bin any more, and I can't find > xfontsel either), nothing but xconsole, xterm, emacs 19.34 and an > occasional Netscape Navigator. I'm fvwm 1.4, TkDesk and XFmail with X resources set to mimic XFMail's colour scheme (an odd shade of yellow) in XVile, XTerm, XMan ... And a boring plain blueish background. No virtual desktop as I never seen to use them. I've written a cpu graph monitor styled after something I saw on NeXTs years ago. It has three concentric rings representing different averaging times and it colours system, nice, user and idle times. http://www.ragnet.demon.co.uk/ and look for the xcpugraph page. Also, I'm slowing putting together a replacement for TkDesk's Linux centric PPP dialer and smart phone icon so that it works when running ppp -auto. And has things like setting logging modes, timeouts etc. Unfortuntaly the whole Desktop set breaks the competetion rules, I need an suid program for the cpu monitor, patches to TkDesk, a shell script version of xinit/startx and globs of X resource files, a very nice log file reader called Termite (not my own)... Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 02:45:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17594 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:45:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17572 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:45:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA13183; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:44:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807210944.CAA13183@implode.root.com> To: randal@comtest.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new wcarchive record In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 20 Jul 1998 11:12:46 -1000." <199807202117.LAA18217@oldyeller.comtest.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 02:44:26 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On 18 Jul 98, at 11:30, David Greenman wrote: > >> We set a new record yesterday on wcarchive... >> >> -DG > >What software are you using to collect these stats and are the reports >generated automatically? Custom software developed at WC CDROM. The reports are generated automatically each night. I make the reports publically available when we set new records, but otherwise they are only available to certain archive maintainers. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 05:38:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11908 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 05:38:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from klemm2.hightek.com ([195.90.203.76]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA11903 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 05:38:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aklemm@hightek.com) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm2.hightek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00405; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:37:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980721143753.18289@hightek.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:37:53 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Wes Peters , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest References: <35B2CC1B.5D2ECFBE@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <35B2CC1B.5D2ECFBE@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 10:48:27PM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jul 19, 1998 at 10:48:27PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > We need more submissions, folks. Grab your CD, put E! or TkDesk or Fvwm > or whatever on your desktop, hack around a bit, and submit it. I'd really > like for someone to submit a complete, working KDE environment just to > compare against. I could send my KDE Desktp in 'as is'. For more work I don't have time. -- B&K Gruppe - Wuppertal phone +49 202 7399 - 170 fax +49 202 7399 - 100 http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 05:45:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA12659 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 05:45:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from klemm2.hightek.com ([195.90.203.76]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA12650 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 05:45:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aklemm@hightek.com) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm2.hightek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00429; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:44:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980721144434.10683@hightek.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:44:34 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Duncan Barclay , Dag-Erling Coidan Smrgrav Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jason C. Wells" , Wes Peters , "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Duncan Barclay on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:37:34AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:37:34AM +0100, Duncan Barclay wrote: > On 21-Jul-98 Dag-Erling Coidan Smrgrav wrote: > > Bah, tvtwm rules. I have a hacked version of tvtwm (I added functions > I'm fvwm 1.4, TkDesk and XFmail with X resources set to mimic XFMail's colour Maybe someone has a little time to 'steal' from SuSE Linux. They hacked the scripts much and provide the possibility to switch between several window managers, but every windows manager at least has the same client configured, so you can really choose between 'look and feel' and 'functionality', not 'what desktop has the most clients configured' ;-) So I'd love to see an approach, where people think, what functionality a Unix Desktop has to offer - what client programs - what pointer (mouse) / keyboard functionality and then do it in every windowmanager ... Swallow, where swallowing makes sense and bind top to the swallowed xload and such ... And make it possible, to switch between several window managers ... afterstep, fvwm, fvwm95, kde, enlightenment, ... and make that look the same for every window manager platform. Amen ;-) -- B&K Gruppe - Wuppertal phone +49 202 7399 - 170 fax +49 202 7399 - 100 http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 06:14:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA17221 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:14:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA17216 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:14:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@oslo.sl.slb.com) Received: from sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (sunw110 [192.23.231.54]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA22882 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:13:54 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA22193; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:13:53 +0200 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Weeee! Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 21 Jul 1998 15:13:52 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 5 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One down, five billion to go :) DES (who just converted a colleague to FreeBSD) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 06:38:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19540 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:38:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA19535 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 06:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29295; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:37:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199807211337.HAA29295@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Weeee! In-Reply-To: from =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dag=2DErling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= at "Jul 21, 98 03:13:52 pm" To: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 07:37:32 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > One down, five billion to go :) > > DES (who just converted a colleague to FreeBSD) I got one yesterday, too. Jordan says we already had about a million yoosers, so now we've only got 4,998,999,998 to go. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 08:15:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09525 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:15:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from klemm2.hightek.com ([195.90.203.76]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09520 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:15:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aklemm@hightek.com) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm2.hightek.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00975; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:15:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980721171501.62621@hightek.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:15:01 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Wes Peters , =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Weeee! References: <199807211337.HAA29295@obie.softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199807211337.HAA29295@obie.softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 07:37:32AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 07:37:32AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > One down, five billion to go :) > > > > DES (who just converted a colleague to FreeBSD) > > I got one yesterday, too. Mee too, on collegue installed -current at home ;-) -- B&K Gruppe - Wuppertal phone +49 202 7399 - 170 fax +49 202 7399 - 100 http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 08:20:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09969 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:20:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09958 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 08:20:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA08186; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:20:03 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <35B4B1A3.41642923@plutotech.com> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:20:03 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andreas Klemm CC: Wes Peters , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest References: <35B2CC1B.5D2ECFBE@softweyr.com> <19980721143753.18289@hightek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I could send my KDE Desktp in 'as is'. > For more work I don't have time. Agreed. Even straight KDE out of the box looks and works quite nicely. --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 09:23:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20468 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:23:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA20436 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:23:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) id CAA27226; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:21:57 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19980722022154.29029@welearn.com.au> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:21:54 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Sean Kelly Cc: Andreas Klemm , Wes Peters , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest References: <35B2CC1B.5D2ECFBE@softweyr.com> <19980721143753.18289@hightek.com> <35B4B1A3.41642923@plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <35B4B1A3.41642923@plutotech.com>; from Sean Kelly on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 09:20:03AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 09:20:03AM -0600, Sean Kelly wrote: > > I could send my KDE Desktp in 'as is'. > > For more work I don't have time. > > Agreed. Even straight KDE out of the box looks and works quite nicely. I'd like to see a good KDE desktop win... err, I mean come second (that disk is mine! all mine!). But I am troubled by the need to rebuild the kernel before KDE will work, and wonder how that can be handled in order to have what the FAQ describes as an "out-of-the-box desktop configuration more helpful to new users" "a comprehensive default user profile for root" "giving him/her the options he/she needs to manage their system" To me this implies a quick and easy setup that allows administration tasks to be performed in a comfortable GUI right from the beginning. You know, things like rebuilding the kernel with the FAQ and Handbook in full view. There is nothing on the xcontest pages that indicates that the kernel rebuilding is the responsibility of the contest entry, and I don't believe it should be. Nor can we say "Your first impression of FreeBSD will be wonderful for a new user, believe us, just learn how to rebuild your kernel to suit KDE before running X!" The stipulation of "a stock FreeBSD 2.2.6 system" seems to refer specifically to pkg_add, which, for 2.2.6, did not behave as intended. By default it actually completed the installation for a package if some of its dependencies (or their dependencies) were not found. If the winning entry uses KDE then someone will have to work out how to deal with the kernel before plugging it in as the default new user configuration. Maybe the GENERIC kernel needs to be modified to accommodate KDE. I don't know if that's a possibility or not. So far nobody else seems to be the slightest bit concerned that the winning entry might not work after all unless something is done. Maybe I haven't shouted in the right ears yet (which ears are they??) Consider this fair warning that I'll be sitting back ready to cackle "I told you so" if such boring practicalities are forgotten about when the time comes :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 09:37:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22992 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from niobe.ewox.org (ppp002.uio.no [129.240.240.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22972 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from finrod@niobe.ewox.org) Received: (from finrod@localhost) by niobe.ewox.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10645; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:36:20 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from finrod) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Dying Languages Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit From: finrod@niobe.ewox.org (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 21 Jul 1998 18:36:19 +0200 Message-ID: <86yatncgak.fsf@niobe.ewox.org> Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just received the July number of Scientific American. There is a rather entertaining item in the _Letters to the Editors_ on page 5: Rodger Doyle's piece on "Languages, Disappearing and Dead" ["By the Numbers", News and Analysis, March] seems to have an omission for the U.S. You left out Appletalk. But I leave it to you to decide wether or not Apple should be classified as "endangered" or "moribund". Doug Waud Worcester, Mass. DES -- Sorry, no .sig today. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 09:50:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25627 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:50:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terror.hungry.com (qmailr@terror.hungry.com [199.181.107.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA25620 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:50:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fn@hungry.com) Received: (qmail 24731 invoked by uid 507); 21 Jul 1998 16:50:00 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest References: From: Faried Nawaz Date: 21 Jul 1998 09:50:00 -0700 In-Reply-To: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com's message of 21 Jul 1998 02:03:44 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.37/XEmacs 19.16 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smxrgrav) writes: Bah, tvtwm rules. I have a hacked version of tvtwm (I added functions to move the pointer so I can bind them to keys; it works well except that the title bar highlight doesn't get updated properly when you move the pointer out of a window). I use the largest "Powered by FreeBSD" logo as background for my pager, the "Chuck on a rock staring at the moon" picture as desktop background, and tvtwm's built-in icon manager (the same as twm's) No xbiff, no xclock, no xload (where the h* is xload? it's not in /usr/X11R6/bin any more, and I can't find xfontsel either), nothing but xconsole, xterm, emacs 19.34 and an occasional Netscape Navigator. You need to compile and install ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/XFree86/current/source/X332contrib.tgz I use a hacked version of tvtwm as well -- it's called "piewm". ftp://ftp.crynwr.com/piewm/index.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 09:54:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26227 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:54:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26144 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:54:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA00839; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807211652.JAA00839@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Faried Nawaz cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest In-reply-to: Your message of "21 Jul 1998 09:50:00 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:52:41 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You need to compile and install > > ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/pub/XFree86/current/source/X332contrib.tgz Is there a tarball that's part of the XF86 release that contains the contrib binaries? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 10:36:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02950 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:36:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@[194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA02916 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 10:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01040; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:27:12 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35B4CF8E.DA61C891@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:27:42 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andreas Klemm CC: Duncan Barclay , Dag-Erling Coidan Smrgrav , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jason C. Wells" , Wes Peters , "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest References: <19980721144434.10683@hightek.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andreas Klemm wrote: > > So I'd love to see an approach, where people think, what > functionality a Unix Desktop has to offer > - what client programs it would be absolutely excellent if there was a common interface that ports of window managers could provide to add and remove programs from their menu (in most cases a perl or shell script would be quite enough) - other ports/pkgs could gradually be converted over, coupled with an X-based package installer it would give a more user-friendly mechanism for downloading and installing applications than Microsoft has. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 12:40:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23937 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:40:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23926 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 12:40:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA15713; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:39:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:39:49 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to the following press release, the $10 admission charge for O'Reilly's "Open Source Town Meeting" will be donated to the Free Software Foundation. I believe that this is inappropriate, as the Free Software Foundation has an anti-business ideology and supports only one form of "open source" software license -- a form with which many of us do not agree. Those who believe that there should be other approaches to licensing of open source software should contact the address below and register their concerns, asking that there be an opportunity to direct one's admission charges to a different group. (FreeBSD.org would not be inappropriate, IMHO.) --Brett Glass FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: July 20, 1998 CONTACT: Sara Winge, 707/829-0515 x285, sara@oreilly.com, More information at http://opensource.oreilly.com/townmeet.html O'REILLY HOSTS OPEN SOURCE TOWN MEETING "Open Source is Open for Business" is Theme of Public Forum SEBASTOPOL, CA--The burgeoning open source (TM) software community will gather at the first Open Source Town Meeting on Friday, August 21 from 5:00-6:30 pm at the Fairmont Hotel in San Jose, CA. O'Reilly & Associates is sponsoring the Town Meeting, which caps off their Open Source Developer Day. More information and registration is at http://opensource.oreilly.com/townmeet.html. Admission is $10. O'Reilly will donate all proceeds from the Open Source Town Meeting to the Free Software Foundation. The Open Source Town Meeting is for software developers, corporate IS managers, entrepreneurs, and others who want to take advantage of the open source development and business models. A panel discussion on the topic "Open Source is Open for Business" will kick off the Town Meeting. Moderator Tim O'Reilly, CEO of O'Reilly & Associates, will be joined by key open source leaders including: * Larry Wall, creator of Perl and Senior Developer, O'Reilly & Associates * James Barry, HTTP and WebSphere product manager, IBM * Jim Hamerley, Vice President, Client Products Division, Netscape Communications Corp. * David Filo, co-founder of Yahoo, which uses FreeBSD, Apache, and other open source tools * Richard Stallman, founder of the GNU project * Bob Young, President, Red Hat Software * Brian Behlendorf, a founder of the Apache group and vice president of Web Applications at C2Net Software, Inc. * John Ousterhout, CEO, Scriptics Corp. and creator of the Tcl scripting language * Jordan Hubbard, a founder of the FreeBSD project * Eric Raymond, independent developer; open source evangelist; author of the influential paper, "The Cathedral and the Bazaar." The Open Source Town Meeting will include ample time for audience comment and questions. O'Reilly's partners in the event will have informational displays on their open source-related efforts. Partners include: Apache Group C2Net Software, Inc. Crynwr Linux International Linux Journal Penguin Computing Red Hat Software, Inc. Samba Scriptics Corporation Sendmail, Inc. Silicon Valley Linux User Group Songline Studios USENIX Whistle Communications The Open Source Town Meeting is a followup to the private Open Source Summit that O'Reilly hosted for a small group of key open source developers in April 1998. Another outgrowth of that meeting is Open Source Developer Day (http://opensource.oreilly.com/osdd), a daylong workshop for those who want to learn how to develop and market open source software, which takes place from 9:00am-4:30pm the day of the Town Meeting. # # # "Open Source" is a Certification Mark of Software in the Public Interest. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 13:53:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09748 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:53:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA09717 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 13:53:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA08270; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:52:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 16:52:56 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Jul 21, 98 01:39:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > According to the following press release, the $10 admission charge > for O'Reilly's "Open Source Town Meeting" will be donated to > the Free Software Foundation. I believe that this is inappropriate, > as the Free Software Foundation has an anti-business ideology and > supports only one form of "open source" software license -- a form > with which many of us do not agree. > > Those who believe that there should be other approaches to licensing > of open source software should contact the address below and > register their concerns, asking that there be an opportunity to > direct one's admission charges to a different group. (FreeBSD.org > would not be inappropriate, IMHO.) > > --Brett Glass Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. There's a large percentage of the Open Source Software built with Gnu compilers and tools and seeing each group attending this forum wanting a splintered cut of the take would discourage cooperation. I think we can let this opportunity to be difficult slide. Can you imagine the screams if the Linux folks were told a part of the take was going to support the Freebsd or NetBSD project. Bill To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 14:04:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12124 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:04:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12098; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:03:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17229; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:03:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:03:16 -0600 To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> References: <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: >Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. >However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. They even oppose the notion of "Open Source" software; see http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html >There's a large percentage of the Open Source Software built with Gnu >compilers and tools and seeing each group attending this forum >wanting a splintered cut of the take would discourage cooperation. Contributing to the FSF discourages cooperation, as it openly disparages all other forms of "open source" software (again, see the Web page cited above). >I think we can let this opportunity to be difficult slide. I think it's vital to take it. >Can you imagine the screams if the Linux folks were told a part of the >take was going to support the Freebsd or NetBSD project. Why shouldn't we scream just as loudly? Supporting FSF *is* supporting Linux. I think that FreeBSD's advocacy group should make a formal request that if O'Reilly is to call the event an "Open Source Town Hall," it is inappropriate for the proceeds to go to one faction that consistently denigrates all other viewpoints. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 14:24:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16852 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:24:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16682; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:23:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA02010; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:21:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807212121.OAA02010@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Brett Glass cc: Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 Jul 1998 15:03:16 MDT." <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 14:21:39 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Can you imagine the screams if the Linux folks were told a part of the > >take was going to support the Freebsd or NetBSD project. > > Why shouldn't we scream just as loudly? Supporting FSF *is* supporting > Linux. Definitely. > I think that FreeBSD's advocacy group should make a formal request that > if O'Reilly is to call the event an "Open Source Town Hall," it is > inappropriate > for the proceeds to go to one faction that consistently denigrates all other > viewpoints. The challenge here is to compete effectively for mindspace with the Linux crowd without wearing the decidedly unprofessional image that comes with their tactics. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 17:03:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16173 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:03:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16095; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA08254; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:31:21 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:31:21 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 03:03:16PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 15:03:16 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > >> Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. >> However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. > > I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to > promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 17:13:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18836 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18585; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:12:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA02892; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:08:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807220008.RAA02892@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:31:21 +0930." <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:08:58 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 15:03:16 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > > > >> Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. > >> However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. > > > > I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to > > promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. > > That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of > that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. You're making the mistake that the FSF want you to; namely that they are the sole source of "GNU" software. What you may mean is that we should not stop using GPL'd software. Whether that's desirable is arguable, but note that AFAIK almost none of the GPL'd components we use (for example) are developed or have their development supported substantially by the FSF. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 17:16:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19471 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (root@jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA19373 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id RAA22410; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:15:19 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id RAA02733; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:12:17 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu To: Stuart Henderson cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest In-Reply-To: <35B4CF8E.DA61C891@internationalschool.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Stuart Henderson wrote: >- other ports/pkgs could gradually be converted over, coupled with an >X-based package installer it would give a more user-friendly mechanism >for downloading and installing applications than Microsoft has. Noooooooo!!!!!!!!! Leave my ports collection alone. Xified ports... Baaah! I have the technology to develop nuclear weapons and I am not afraid to use it in defense of the ports collection. This is as zealous as I get. '$ make;make install' is too easy. A Tcl/Tk front end to ports might be ok if you absolutely must click a button, but only if I never see it. :) Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 17:21:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20870 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:21:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20783; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA08302; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:50:17 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980722095017.F8098@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:50:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) References: <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220008.RAA02892@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807220008.RAA02892@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 05:08:58PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 17:08:58 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >> On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 15:03:16 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >>> At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: >>> >>>> Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. >>>> However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. >>> >>> I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to >>> promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. >> >> That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of >> that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. > > You're making the mistake that the FSF want you to; namely that they > are the sole source of "GNU" software. What you may mean is that we > should not stop using GPL'd software. I'm not sure we're understanding each other here. My question was rhetorical, with an implicit "no" as answer. Looking in /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin, I see: bc cvs gdb gzip ptx tar binutils dc genclass ld rcs texinfo bison dialog gperf man sdiff as cc diff grep patch send-pr awk cpio diff3 groff perl sort Of these, I use frequently and believe we have no alternative source of: cvs gdb gzip rcs texinfo bison grep patch awk groff perl sort I also use Emacs and bash, both of which are GPLd. I have no intention of even trying to change. > Whether that's desirable is arguable, but note that AFAIK almost > none of the GPL'd components we use (for example) are developed or > have their development supported substantially by the FSF. gcc, gdb, Emacs, bash, grep, awk? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 17:24:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21509 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:24:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (root@jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21411 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:23:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id RAA15662 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:23:17 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id RAA04274 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:20:14 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Weeee! In-Reply-To: <19980721171501.62621@hightek.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Andreas Klemm wrote: >On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 07:37:32AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >> > One down, five billion to go :) I got a wannbe programmer month ago with my old 2.2.2 disc that I no longer need. He looked at the price of Borland C++ and birthed a large farm animal. I told him he could get top notch C/C++ compiler and libraries for nothing. He said he didn't want some crackpot hacked version of Borland. I said "No No NO!" Here try this... The rest is history. He now likes his text plain old ascii, no formatting. I am so proud. :) Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 17:42:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA24796 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:42:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA24749; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:42:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA03042; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807220039.RAA03042@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Mike Smith , Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:50:17 +0930." <19980722095017.F8098@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:39:02 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 17:08:58 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > >> On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 15:03:16 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >>> At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > >>> > >>>> Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. > >>>> However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. > >>> > >>> I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to > >>> promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. > >> > >> That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of > >> that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. > > > > You're making the mistake that the FSF want you to; namely that they > > are the sole source of "GNU" software. What you may mean is that we > > should not stop using GPL'd software. > > I'm not sure we're understanding each other here. My question was > rhetorical, with an implicit "no" as answer. Looking in > /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin, I see: > > bc cvs gdb gzip ptx tar binutils dc genclass ld rcs texinfo bison > dialog gperf man sdiff as cc diff grep patch send-pr awk cpio diff3 > groff perl sort > > Of these, I use frequently and believe we have no alternative source > of: > > cvs gdb gzip rcs texinfo bison grep patch awk groff perl sort > > I also use Emacs and bash, both of which are GPLd. I have no > intention of even trying to change. I never suggested otherwise. I merely ask you what makes you think that the FSF are the only organisation that's supporting the development of these tools. I didn't even touch on whether we should be considering supporting other organisations and individuals which support and develop other worthwhile material but receive less support already. > > Whether that's desirable is arguable, but note that AFAIK almost > > none of the GPL'd components we use (for example) are developed or > > have their development supported substantially by the FSF. > > gcc, gdb, Cygnus are the only organisation that seems to have spent any real time on these of late, and that significantly with funding from commercial vendors. You omitted the binutils, which fall into the same category. > Emacs, A cast of thousands. > bash, I never use it. > grep, A cast of several, with no clear affiliation (other than that the bit written by RMS is the worst). > awk? An FSF original. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 17:46:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA25440 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:46:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1661.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA25398; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:46:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17206; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:45:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980721204519.A15969@zappo> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:45:19 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 03:03:16PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 03:03:16PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > They even oppose the notion of "Open Source" software; see > > http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html Your comment is somewhat misleading... That reference is a specific attack on Eric Raymond's preferred set of lingo. I think the below-quote basically sums the reference: "The obvious meaning for ``open source'' is ``You can get the source code.'' This category is distinctly not the same as free software." I think most of us will agree with that. Especially those of us who have argued in the past that GNU software is not free software. On a related note, I'm not sure what I think of their Free Software Award, but if _someone_ has to win that, it sure would be cool (and probably a good thing in a grand universal-harmony sense) to see someone from the "BSD camp" win that. Isn't chairman of the award committee Peter Salus known to prefer BSD (sans advertising clause) license? > Contributing to the FSF discourages cooperation, as it openly disparages > all other forms of "open source" software (again, see the Web page cited > above). Try again. You could probably find some web page showing that the FSF disparages all other forms of "open source" software, but that is _definately_ not it. > >Can you imagine the screams if the Linux folks were told a part of the > >take was going to support the Freebsd or NetBSD project. > > Why shouldn't we scream just as loudly? Supporting FSF *is* supporting > Linux. Unfortunately, I think this is true. The problem, though, is that of all the _creditable_ organizations I can think of offhand, the FSF is the only one even close to supporting all free software. I trust esr to administer money quite a bit less than I trust rms, for example. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 17:55:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA27317 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:55:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27310; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 17:55:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21379; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:54:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:54:44 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:31 AM 7/22/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of >that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. The "people who supply it" will not get any of the money. The money will go entirely to an organization whose purpose is to promote the GPL, and software published under it, to the detriment of those who don't agree that the GPL is The Word. In short, to the detriment of FreeBSD. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 18:01:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27995 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:01:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA27977; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21498; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:00:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807220100.TAA21498@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:00:35 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722102033.H8098@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199807220039.RAA03042@dingo.cdrom.com> <19980722095017.F8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220039.RAA03042@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:20 AM 7/22/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >OK, I suppose we need to ask the question "Why support at all?". >There are some signs that the FSF are going down the tubes, quite >possibly as a result of rms's attitude, but definitely also because >they're not the only kid on the block any more. It would be fair to >ask "what have they done recently?". Nonetheless, I think an donation >is appropriate as long as we use their stuff, even if their main >contribution nowadays may be maintaining the source trees. It's not "their stuff." Others contributed all but a miniscule part of the time and effort. What's certain is that they will use the money to promote GPL'ed software AT THE EXPENSE OF efforts like FreeBSD. Worse still, the speakers at the event (including Jordan and Brian) were snookered. They weren't informed that there would be an admission charge or that it would go entirely to a group that does not support, and in many cases actively opposes, what they do because it doesn't fall under the Holy GPL. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 18:02:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28312 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:02:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28298; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:02:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA08786; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:31:27 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980722103127.I8098@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:31:27 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 06:54:44PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 18:54:44 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:31 AM 7/22/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of >> that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. > > The "people who supply it" will not get any of the money. The money will > go entirely to an organization whose purpose is to promote the GPL, and > software published under it, to the detriment of those who don't agree that > the GPL is The Word. In short, to the detriment of FreeBSD. In fact, I've just looked at the FSF web page, and it brought back to me that I keep confusing the FSF and the GNU project. What I was talking about is really the GNU project, the people who actually deal in software, rather than the FSF, which is a political wing rather akin to Sinn Fein. I've never been too keen on them. OK, then, who *should* get the donation? Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 18:03:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28455 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:03:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28439; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:03:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA03158; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807220100.SAA03158@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Greg Lehey cc: Mike Smith , Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:20:33 +0930." <19980722102033.H8098@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:00:16 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > OK, I suppose we need to ask the question "Why support at all?". > There are some signs that the FSF are going down the tubes, quite > possibly as a result of rms's attitude, but definitely also because > they're not the only kid on the block any more. It would be fair to > ask "what have they done recently?". Nonetheless, I think an donation > is appropriate as long as we use their stuff, even if their main > contribution nowadays may be maintaining the source trees. Not an unreasonable question. I would want to ask "what are they going to do for me"? Perhaps it is time for them to move on? It's all a bit rhetorical, as I won't be able to go anyway. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 18:07:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA28956 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:07:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA28948 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:07:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id VAA14902; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:07:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199807220107.VAA14902@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:07:02 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722103127.I8098@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Jul 22, 98 10:31:27 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 18:54:44 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 09:31 AM 7/22/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >> That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of > >> that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. > > > > The "people who supply it" will not get any of the money. The money will > > go entirely to an organization whose purpose is to promote the GPL, and > > software published under it, to the detriment of those who don't agree that > > the GPL is The Word. In short, to the detriment of FreeBSD. > > In fact, I've just looked at the FSF web page, and it brought back to > me that I keep confusing the FSF and the GNU project. What I was > talking about is really the GNU project, the people who actually deal > in software, rather than the FSF, which is a political wing rather > akin to Sinn Fein. I've never been too keen on them. > > OK, then, who *should* get the donation? > > Greg > Anyone outside of Redmond. I'd love to see Cygnus... but they're not a non-profit. There's Free/Net/OpenBSD. (Yeah, right..) How about FreeVMS 8-) How about O'Reilly using the money to donate some of their books to school and small town libraries? Realistically -- at least it's not going to Redmond. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 18:16:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29989 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:16:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29967; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:16:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21772; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:15:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:15:07 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722103127.I8098@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:31 AM 7/22/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >In fact, I've just looked at the FSF web page, and it brought back to >me that I keep confusing the FSF and the GNU project. What I was >talking about is really the GNU project, the people who actually deal >in software, rather than the FSF, which is a political wing rather >akin to Sinn Fein. I've never been too keen on them. They claim that the Free Software Foundation is "a tax-exempt charity that raises funds for work on the GNU Project" -- in short, that the FSF is the GNU Project's fundraising arm. But in fact, the two Web sites http://www.gnu.org and http://www.fsf.org are different in name only. They contain virtually all of the same material. It seems probable that much of the money raised by FSF in fact goes into promoting the GPL over alternatives. >OK, then, who *should* get the donation? If there is no truly neutral group (some say that Eric Raymond's Open Source entity is neutral, but I don't know if it is or not), it should be split among the groups participating. Or attendees should be able to select one. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 18:20:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA00890 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:20:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA00144; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:16:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA08764; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:20:33 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980722102033.H8098@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:20:33 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: Brett Glass , Bill/Carolyn Pechter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) References: <19980722095017.F8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220039.RAA03042@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807220039.RAA03042@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 05:39:02PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 17:39:02 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >> On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 17:08:58 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >>>> On Tuesday, 21 July 1998 at 15:03:16 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >>>>> At 04:52 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. >>>>>> However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. >>>>> >>>>> I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to >>>>> promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. >>>> >>>> That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of >>>> that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. >>> >>> You're making the mistake that the FSF want you to; namely that they >>> are the sole source of "GNU" software. What you may mean is that we >>> should not stop using GPL'd software. >> >> I'm not sure we're understanding each other here. My question was >> rhetorical, with an implicit "no" as answer. Looking in >> /usr/src/gnu/usr.bin, I see: >> >> bc cvs gdb gzip ptx tar binutils dc genclass ld rcs texinfo bison >> dialog gperf man sdiff as cc diff grep patch send-pr awk cpio diff3 >> groff perl sort >> >> Of these, I use frequently and believe we have no alternative source >> of: >> >> cvs gdb gzip rcs texinfo bison grep patch awk groff perl sort >> >> I also use Emacs and bash, both of which are GPLd. I have no >> intention of even trying to change. > > I never suggested otherwise. I merely ask you what makes you think > that the FSF are the only organisation that's supporting the > development of these tools. Ah. What makes you think I think that the FSF are the only organisation that's supporting the development of these tools? There were other good reasons mentioned for singling out the FSF (mainly, that they supplied some tools to *every* open source effort, and thus a donation to them wouldn't upset anybody (much :-)) >>> Whether that's desirable is arguable, but note that AFAIK almost >>> none of the GPL'd components we use (for example) are developed or >>> have their development supported substantially by the FSF. >> >> gcc, gdb, > > Cygnus are the only organisation that seems to have spent any real time > on these of late, and that significantly with funding from commercial > vendors. You omitted the binutils, which fall into the same category. I wasn't sure we didn't have an alternative for them. >> Emacs, > > A cast of thousands. But a solid FSF base. >> grep, > > A cast of several, with no clear affiliation (other than that the bit > written by RMS is the worst). How do you recognize that? >> awk? > > An FSF original. OK, I suppose we need to ask the question "Why support at all?". There are some signs that the FSF are going down the tubes, quite possibly as a result of rms's attitude, but definitely also because they're not the only kid on the block any more. It would be fair to ask "what have they done recently?". Nonetheless, I think an donation is appropriate as long as we use their stuff, even if their main contribution nowadays may be maintaining the source trees. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 18:33:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03423 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:33:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from polaris.pacificnet.net (polaris.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03385; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:32:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@pacificnet.net) Received: from shell (shell.pacificnet.net [207.171.0.231]) by polaris.pacificnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA21259; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:32:16 -0700 (PDT) env-from (bear@pacificnet.net) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 18:30:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@shell To: Brett Glass cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-Reply-To: <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > > >OK, then, who *should* get the donation? > > If there is no truly neutral group (some say that Eric Raymond's Open Source > entity is neutral, but I don't know if it is or not), it should be split among > the groups participating. Or attendees should be able to select one. > > --Brett Hmm....who should get the money, eh? Good people from good *free* pojects like FreeBSD, KDE, some of the GNU contributors (the Emacs people, etc. I'd like to see the X enviroment to be further developed so I'm biased towards helping out those who write software for X. :) All this is IMHO of course. :) Joey > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 20:52:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA24608 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:52:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1592.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA24558; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:52:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24808; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:51:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980721235055.A24112@zappo> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:50:55 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722103127.I8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 07:15:07PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 07:15:07PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > If there is no truly neutral group (some say that Eric Raymond's Open Source > entity is neutral, but I don't know if it is or not), it should be split among > the groups participating. Or attendees should be able to select one. Is there anyone here familiar with both esr and rms who would seriously trust esr over rms with their money? Not to denigrate esr's name, but I certainly wouldn't... [Or, more accurately, "organizations controlled by [esr|rms]".] Somehow splitting the money seems to go against the whole idea of a conference involving all fractions (factions?) in the free software world. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 20:57:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25374 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:57:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1592.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25365 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 20:57:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24967; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:54:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980721235454.B24112@zappo> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:54:54 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: "Jason C. Wells" , Stuart Henderson Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest References: <35B4CF8E.DA61C891@internationalschool.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 05:12:17PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 05:12:17PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: [Re: mechanism allowing ports to automatically tell window-managers about themselves.] > Noooooooo!!!!!!!!! [...] > defense of the ports collection. This is as zealous as I get. '$ make;make > install' is too easy. Actually, I think it's a pretty cool idea. :) -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 21:19:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28799 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:19:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28794; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:19:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24798; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:18:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807220418.WAA24798@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:17:58 -0600 To: Tim Vanderhoek , Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980721235055.A24112@zappo> References: <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org> <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722103127.I8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:50 PM 7/21/98 -0400, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: >Somehow splitting the money seems to go against the whole idea of a >conference involving all fractions (factions?) in the free software >world. Well, giving the money to just one faction is worse. Especially when it's the biggest and is slamming the others publicly. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 21:51:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02354 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:51:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02340 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 21:51:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00738; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:51:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199807220451.WAA00738@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Open Source Town Meeting fees To: sara@oreilly.com Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:51:22 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sara, Thank you for the notification of your "Open Source Town Meeting" event. While I support the concept of your meeting, I do not wish to donate $10 to the Free Software Foundation. If you can find a way to designate other Free Source enterprises as targets of your donations, I will be happy to reconsider. In particular, I think the FreeBSD Project would be a suitable enterprise to support, as well as NetBSD, OpenBSD, any of the Linux distributors, Sendmail Inc, the Internet Software Consortium, etc. Thank you for your support -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 22:00:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03676 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:00:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03638; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA02304; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:59:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:59:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Adrian Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Joey Garcia cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Joey Garcia wrote: > > On Tue, 21 Jul 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > >OK, then, who *should* get the donation? > > > > If there is no truly neutral group (some say that Eric Raymond's Open Source > > entity is neutral, but I don't know if it is or not), it should be split among > > the groups participating. Or attendees should be able to select one. > > > > --Brett > > Hmm....who should get the money, eh? Good people from good *free* pojects > like FreeBSD, KDE, some of the GNU contributors (the Emacs people, etc. > > I'd like to see the X enviroment to be further developed so I'm biased > towards helping out those who write software for X. :) > > All this is IMHO of course. :) I second this! The XFree86 folks are as OS neutral a free-source project as there ever will be. And it is one group which everyone is well put to support. Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 22:06:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04723 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:06:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04715; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:06:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@shell.futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA11446; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:05:42 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:05:42 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Adrian Filipi-Martin Cc: Joey Garcia , Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Adrian Filipi-Martin on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:59:53AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:59:53AM -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin woke me up to tell me: > > > > I'd like to see the X enviroment to be further developed so I'm biased > > towards helping out those who write software for X. :) > > > > All this is IMHO of course. :) > > I second this! The XFree86 folks are as OS neutral a free-source > project as there ever will be. And it is one group which everyone is well > put to support. Third. To a vote. All in favor, say 'Aye'. All opposed, shaddup and go back to your cons25 :p. *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 22:12:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA05761 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:12:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA05755; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13416; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:12:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd013391; Tue Jul 21 22:12:28 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA05092; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:12:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807220512.WAA05092@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:12:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Jul 22, 98 09:31:21 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Brett -- I also disagree with the Free Software Foundation's philosophy. > >> However, I think it's a reasonable place for the funding to go. > > > > I disagree. The Free Software Foundation's main objective nowadays is to > > promote the notion that the GPL is the One True Way. > > That may be. But do you intend to stop using GNU software because of > that? If not, I think it's fair to support the people who supply it. I'd actually be very happy to switch over to TenDRA. Barring that, which no one will ever agree to, because it would actually involve work... I'd be happy to see the money go to Cygnus to pay them to support FreeBSD in binutils, and other places where FreeBSD support is lacking. FSF is not the only source of GNU software, and it's not the only source of Open Source software. How do I know that FSF won't spend the money on HURD? Or spend the money on other things, and use the money they would have spent on those other things themselves, on HURD? Why do I want to support an institution that wants to fragment the Open Source community with yet-another-OS because of NIH? Frankly, I'd prefer subsidizing commercial ports to Linux (which could at least run under emulation). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 22:29:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA07818 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:29:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (sac-port55.jps.net [209.63.114.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07813; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:29:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id WAA16531; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:31:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:31:51 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:05:42AM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:05:42AM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:59:53AM -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin woke me up to tell me: > > > > > > I'd like to see the X enviroment to be further developed so I'm biased > > > towards helping out those who write software for X. :) > > > > I second this! The XFree86 folks are as OS neutral a free-source > > project as there ever will be. And it is one group which everyone is well > > put to support. > > Third. To a vote. All in favor, say 'Aye'. All opposed, shaddup and go > back to your cons25 :p. I still think that the FSF is a good place for the donations to go, but The XFree86 Project is an excellent choice as well. They might need the money more lately because they're doing independent development due to the Open Group's decision. I know this will just stir up trouble in the thread, but... if X11 was free software instead of just open source, TOG couldn't have changed the license to a semicommercial one. Of course, if free in this case was GPL, X11 couldn't have been packaged with any commerical Unix. There are tradeoffs to each type of license... and I'm still not convinced which is best. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 22:30:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08064 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:30:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA07985 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:30:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00821; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:29:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199807220529.XAA00821@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest In-Reply-To: <19980722022154.29029@welearn.com.au> from Sue Blake at "Jul 22, 98 02:21:54 am" To: sue@welearn.com.au (Sue Blake) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:29:22 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue stands accused of retorting: > I'd like to see a good KDE desktop win... err, I mean come second (that > disk is mine! all mine!). > > But I am troubled by the need to rebuild the kernel before KDE will > work, and wonder how that can be handled in order to have what the FAQ > describes as an > "out-of-the-box desktop configuration more helpful to new users" > "a comprehensive default user profile for root" > "giving him/her the options he/she needs to manage their system" > To me this implies a quick and easy setup that allows administration > tasks to be performed in a comfortable GUI right from the beginning. > You know, things like rebuilding the kernel with the FAQ and Handbook > in full view. What we're really looking for here is a default user interface to install for rookies in the future. If KDE requires some option(s) in the kernel and they're not dangerous to other parts of the system, we can just add those to the default kernel configuration. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 22:36:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA08699 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:36:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (daemon@smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA08688; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:36:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20688; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:36:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd020672; Tue Jul 21 22:36:08 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA06411; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:36:03 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807220536.WAA06411@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:36:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mike@smith.net.au, brett@lariat.org, pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722095017.F8098@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Jul 22, 98 09:50:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > bc cvs gdb gzip ptx tar binutils dc genclass ld rcs texinfo bison > dialog gperf man sdiff as cc diff grep patch send-pr awk cpio diff3 > groff perl sort > > Of these, I use frequently and believe we have no alternative source > of: > > cvs gdb gzip rcs texinfo bison grep patch awk groff perl sort Which of these are maintained by FSF? CVS was originally a non-GPL'ed comp.sources.unix posting. gdb -- well, I have to admit to using backtrace once in a while; however, there are much better (X-only, admittely) source debuggers available. gzip? -- use compress. RCS? Paul Eggert touched it last -- who's he work for? texinfo? Not needed. Bison? Use yacc instead; mostly needed for the non-standard grammars used by GNU make, GCC, GNU configure, etc.. Grep? There are free alternatives. patch? Larry Wall, NOT FSF. awk? Brian Kernighan's version is still actively maintained. perl? Larry Wall, NOT FSF. I would personally not miss it in the slightest; it's yet another syntax-incompatible scripting language. sort? This was a "conveniece" import, like taking GNU tar instead of (the superior) Berkeley "pax". That basically leaves "groff". And that's because the original free "troff" clone for C/A/T typesetting wasn't very good at PostScript. If I want printed copies, I'll buy them from O'Reilly; otherwise I'll use ditroff. > I also use Emacs and bash, both of which are GPLd. I have no > intention of even trying to change. Fine. Send in your check today... just don't sign my name for me without asking me... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 22:55:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12204 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:55:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12173 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:54:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21910; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:54:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd021895; Tue Jul 21 22:54:35 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA07497; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 22:54:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807220554.WAA07497@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:54:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, mike@smith.net.au, brett@lariat.org, pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722151117.P8993@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Jul 22, 98 03:11:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > CVS was originally a non-GPL'ed comp.sources.unix posting. > > Right, but like many others here, it's now under GPL. You can bitch > about that all you want (and I suppose you will), but it doesn't > change the fact that it's GPL and without an adequate replacement. Actually... FreeBSD has been offered, a number of times, a commercial source code control system developed on FreeBSD. I believe it addresses most of the issues that normally bite me on the arse, such a seperate history maintenance for non-committers, unlike CVS... As far as complaining, I'd much rather complain about the Sleepycat license, which is for all intents and purposes GPL'ing the BSD dbm code, and unlike the GPL does not poison-pill itself against the UCB license. All of FreeBSD could be distributed under such a license, and we would, of course, be screwed to the GPL cross if any were so stupid as to donate code back to the wrong place first. > > gdb -- well, I have to admit to using backtrace once in a while; > > however, there are much better (X-only, admittely) source > > debuggers available. > > Really? And they don't have backtrace? Anyway, point me to them. No, they have backtrace; I'm just a CLI-person, and too lazy to rewrite my alias. But of course, this isn't a point to you in any case... GPL'ed software is "free" software (why don't they just call it "liberated software" and quit confusing everyone?). As such, I can utilize it all I want and not pay them a dime. Just as they can utilize the code I've put out there under UCB license the same way. > > gzip? -- use compress. > > And lose a whole lot of compression. If you are really worried about this, rewrite the code. The algorithms are not shrouded in mystery. If they were, they wouldn't be able to use them. PS: I believe Berkeley compress uses Terry Welch's code, and thus gets better compression than you give it credit for; the gzip code uses lonly Lempil-Ziv (when compressing) and public algorithms, such as adaptive Huffman, when not). > I can also use ex instead of Emacs, but it's a little more difficult to use. So use "vi", and avoid carpel-tunnel syndrome at the same time... > > Bison? Use yacc instead; mostly needed for the non-standard grammars > > used by GNU make, GCC, GNU configure, etc.. > > Is there a free yacc? I thought the only one we had was bison under a > different name. Berkeley yacc. I have personally done maintenance on it, including making it spit out C++ and JAVA code. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 23:09:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14713 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:09:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14703 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:09:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00964; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:08:59 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-Reply-To: <19980721184615.A15764@notabene.zer0.org> from Gregory Sutter at "Jul 21, 98 06:46:15 pm" To: gsutter@pobox.com (Gregory Sutter) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:08:59 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory S. Sutter recently uttered: > I disagree with you. The FSF doesn't oppose Open Source software > any more than Linux opposes FreeBSD. You OBVIOUSLY haven't read anything written by RMS, including most of the political diatributes included with every piece of FSF code you get. I use, and appreciate, Emacs, GCC, GDB, etc., just as much as the next guy, but Stallman's rantings about software hoarding are just so much communist drivel. I contribute, and often convince my employers to contribute, directly to the creators of software like GCC, GDB, etc., and no longer contribute to the FSF directly, because I do not support their political agenda or their attacks on software distributed under Berkeley-style copyrights. Stallman has written at length in public on the evils of the copyright and licensing scheme used by sendmail, BIND, etc., which are virutally identical to the copyright and license under which FreeBSD is distributed. If you give O'Reilly $10 to give to the FSF, you are paying RMS and his political hacks to attack the FreeBSD license model on any front they can. Brett hit this one on the nose: demand the right to direct where your entry fee will go, or don't attend. Tell your Linux friends, too. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 23:10:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14926 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:10:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (daemon@smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14910; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:10:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25637; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:09:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd025615; Tue Jul 21 23:09:55 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA08751; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:09:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807220609.XAA08751@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction To: gsutter@pobox.com (Gregory Sutter) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:09:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> from "Gregory Sutter" at Jul 21, 98 10:31:51 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I know this will just stir up trouble in the thread, but... > if X11 was free software instead of just open source, TOG couldn't have > changed the license to a semicommercial one. That's because DEC wouldn't have funded Project Athena, nor would MIT, which licenses its code under UCB/CMU stlyle license, have participated in its developement. X is a Cathedral, to use ESR's terminology. You can watch the Bazaar all your life and not see Notre Dame rise slowly but surely over the grubby cloth awnings on the street below. Some things are simply not possible in a Bazaar model, mostly things which are long term or require a long term vision. Feel free to work at changing my mind; the day Rockwell lands a man on the moon without public funding would be a good time to tell me "I told you so". Even PBS needed public funding to recreate a tiny pyramid. PS: For all its impressive press, it is very clear to me that the people giving the most attention to ESR's paper have failed to go look at the source code of the project it documents. This is not to denigrate his efforts, but it ain't no Cathedral... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 23:17:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA15931 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:17:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15910; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:17:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA26625; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:15:46 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807220615.AAA26625@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 00:15:46 -0600 To: Adrian Filipi-Martin , Joey Garcia From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:59 AM 7/22/98 -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > I second this! The XFree86 folks are as OS neutral a free-source >project as there ever will be. And it is one group which everyone is well >put to support. > > Adrian I like this idea. With X being "privatized," it pays to contribute to keeping the freely-available version up to date. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 23:20:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16421 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:20:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news1.gtn.com (news1.gtn.com [192.109.159.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16402 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:20:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by news1.gtn.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with UUCP id IAA27636; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:15:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA03335; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:58:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from andreas) Message-ID: <19980722075835.A3328@klemm.gtn.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:58:35 +0200 From: Andreas Klemm To: Sue Blake , Sean Kelly Cc: Andreas Klemm , Wes Peters , "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest References: <35B2CC1B.5D2ECFBE@softweyr.com> <19980721143753.18289@hightek.com> <35B4B1A3.41642923@plutotech.com> <19980722022154.29029@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <19980722022154.29029@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 02:21:54AM +1000 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 02:21:54AM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > But I am troubled by the need to rebuild the kernel before KDE will > work, and wonder how that can be handled in order to have what the FAQ > describes as an Why do you need to rebuild the kernel for KDE ? I think it's not necessary. For what ? Maybe I don't get the clue, because I run a custom kernel for years ... but I can't figure out what "magic Johnson" option is missing ?! -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas What gives you 90% more speed, for example, in kernel compilation ? http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html "NT = Not Today" (Maggie Biggs) ``powered by FreeBSD SMP'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 23:41:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA20467 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:41:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA20045 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:39:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id QAA11528; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:07:15 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980722160715.R8993@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:07:15 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , Gregory Sutter Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980721184615.A15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:08:59AM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 July 1998 at 0:08:59 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > Brett hit this one on the nose: demand the right to direct where your > entry fee will go, or don't attend. Tell your Linux friends, too. Sure. Ignore them and they'll go away. Maybe the friendliest solution for this problem is to have two or three alternatives (the X consortium and maybe something else) and give each attendee the choice of which box he sticks his $10 into. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jul 21 23:45:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21225 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:45:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [139.130.136.133] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA20485 for ; Tue, 21 Jul 1998 23:42:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id QAA11539; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:09:50 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980722160950.A11534@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:09:50 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , Gregory Sutter Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980721184615.A15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> <19980722160715.R8993@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980722160715.R8993@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 04:07:15PM +0930 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 22 July 1998 at 16:07:15 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > Maybe the friendliest solution for this problem is to have two or > three alternatives (the X consortium and maybe something else) and > give each attendee the choice of which box he sticks his $10 into. Aargh! Before you come down on me like a ton of bricks, I meant to say XFree86, not the X consortium, of course. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 01:13:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05576 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:13:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA05560; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@oslo.sl.slb.com) Received: from sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (sunw110 [192.23.231.54]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA22733 ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:11:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA22780; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:11:27 +0200 To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <199807211939.NAA15713@lariat.lariat.org> <199807212052.QAA08270@shell.monmouth.com> <199807212103.PAA17229@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722093121.E8098@freebie.lemis.com> <199807220054.SAA21379@lariat.lariat.org> <199807220115.TAA21772@lariat.lariat.org> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 22 Jul 1998 10:11:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of Tue, 21 Jul 1998 19:15:07 -0600 Message-ID: Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > They claim that the Free Software Foundation is "a tax-exempt > charity that raises funds for work on the GNU Project" -- in short, > that the FSF is the GNU Project's fundraising arm. But in fact, the > two Web sites http://www.gnu.org and http://www.fsf.org are > different in name only. They contain virtually all of the same > material. smoergrd@odin ~> nslookup www.fsf.org Server: geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com Address: 134.32.44.131 Non-authoritative answer: Name: www.gnu.org Address: 206.126.32.23 Aliases: www.fsf.org 'nuff said. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 01:28:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA08888 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:28:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08796 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:27:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@oslo.sl.slb.com) Received: from sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (sunw110 [192.23.231.54]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA23325 ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:22:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA22782; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 10:22:16 +0200 To: Terry Lambert Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), mike@smith.net.au, brett@lariat.org, pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) References: <199807220554.WAA07497@usr04.primenet.com> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 22 Jul 1998 10:22:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of Wed, 22 Jul 1998 05:54:31 +0000 (GMT) Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > I can also use ex instead of Emacs, but it's a little more difficult to use. > So use "vi", and avoid carpel-tunnel syndrome at the same time... Bullshit. Emacs does not require the use of a mouse any more than vi does, unless you're too lazy (or stupid) to learn to use it properly. Hint: (menu-bar-mode -1). OTOH, I wouldn't be sorry to see someone write an alternative to GNU Emacs (no, don't say "XEmacs") since, as I see it, GNU Emacs is currently in a handbasket well on it's way to hell. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 01:35:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10891 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:35:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10779 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:34:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA28716; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:34:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd028707; Wed Jul 22 01:34:15 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id BAA09318; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 01:34:08 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807220834.BAA09318@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) To: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Sm?rgrav) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:34:07 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, mike@smith.net.au, brett@lariat.org, pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Coidan Sm?rgrav" at Jul 22, 98 10:22:15 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I can also use ex instead of Emacs, but it's a little more difficult > > > to use. > > So use "vi", and avoid carpel-tunnel syndrome at the same time... > > Bullshit. Emacs does not require the use of a mouse any more than vi > does, unless you're too lazy (or stupid) to learn to use it properly. > Hint: (menu-bar-mode -1). The carpel-tunnel syndrome is caused by the large number of widely spread keays in order to invoke a command, not by the use of a mouse. It is only Sun mice that are widely known as contributory factors... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 02:02:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA17388 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:02:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (sac-port55.jps.net [209.63.114.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA17358 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:02:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id CAA16946; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:03:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980722020343.C15764@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:03:43 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980721184615.A15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:08:59AM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 12:08:59AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > Gregory S. Sutter recently uttered: > > I disagree with you. The FSF doesn't oppose Open Source software > > any more than Linux opposes FreeBSD. > > You OBVIOUSLY haven't read anything written by RMS, including most > of the political diatributes included with every piece of FSF code > you get. > > I use, and appreciate, Emacs, GCC, GDB, etc., just as much as the > next guy, but Stallman's rantings about software hoarding are just > so much communist drivel. I _have_ read several of RMS's essays as well as the diatribes, as you (mean to) say, that come with FSFware. I don't really consider what RMS says as "ranting" and I worry about your seemingly- automatic association of "communist" with "drivel". First of all, it's not communist, it's socialist. Second, socialism, while idealistic to the extreme (at least when compared to our present form of societal management), is hardly drivel. Indeed, _in the ideal_, I can hardly think of a better form of society. While some of RMS's ideas are definitely on the edge of acceptability, you can't deny that he has some fantastic thoughts about information and property. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 03:12:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27881 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 03:12:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27853 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 03:12:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA28073 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 03:11:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807221011.DAA28073@implode.root.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: another new record for wcarchive From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 03:11:11 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We set another new traffic record of 366GB/day yesterday on wcarchive. Detailed stats attached. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project Dual Log Stats : Jul 22 1998 -------------------------------------------------- Current Record Delta --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Bytes 365,881,877,981 365,881,877,981 New Record! Files 837,895 1,315,689 -477,794 FTP Bytes 365,881,877,981 365,881,877,981 New Record! FTP Files 837,895 914,070 -76,175 HTTP Bytes 58,081,249,072 -58,081,249,072 HTTP Files 567,700 -567,700 =============================================================================== Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ /linux 76,032M 76,032M 0M 325,726 325,726 0 20.78 38.87 /FreeBSD 44,475M 44,475M 0M 216,634 216,634 0 12.16 25.85 /3dfxmania 40,099M 40,099M 0M 9,319 9,319 0 10.96 1.11 /planetquake 32,185M 32,185M 0M 22,262 22,262 0 8.80 2.66 /simtelnet 27,345M 27,345M 0M 50,019 50,019 0 7.47 5.97 /gamesdomain 25,277M 25,277M 0M 2,925 2,925 0 6.91 0.35 /idgames 24,017M 24,017M 0M 16,395 16,395 0 6.56 1.96 /cnet 20,004M 20,004M 0M 12,046 12,046 0 5.47 1.44 /games 16,178M 16,178M 0M 13,096 13,096 0 4.42 1.56 /idgames2 15,037M 15,037M 0M 37,997 37,997 0 4.11 4.53 /demos 12,138M 12,138M 0M 25,228 25,228 0 3.32 3.01 /3drealms 10,460M 10,460M 0M 15,923 15,923 0 2.86 1.90 /XFree86 4,501M 4,501M 0M 10,688 10,688 0 1.23 1.28 /audio 2,694M 2,694M 0M 9,583 9,583 0 0.74 1.14 /dresden 1,963M 1,963M 0M 3,078 3,078 0 0.54 0.37 /unreal 1,513M 1,513M 0M 4,548 4,548 0 0.41 0.54 /artpacks 1,310M 1,310M 0M 1,566 1,566 0 0.36 0.19 /gutenberg 1,264M 1,264M 0M 3,664 3,664 0 0.35 0.44 /ARCHIVE 1,103M 1,103M 0M 1,171 1,171 0 0.30 0.14 /sac 1,025M 1,025M 0M 1,904 1,904 0 0.28 0.23 /tex 1,002M 1,002M 0M 4,909 4,909 0 0.27 0.59 /delphi 787M 787M 0M 9,453 9,453 0 0.22 1.13 /japanese 732M 732M 0M 655 655 0 0.20 0.08 /novell 463M 463M 0M 1,743 1,743 0 0.13 0.21 /gt 405M 405M 0M 75 75 0 0.11 0.01 /abuse 371M 371M 0M 226 226 0 0.10 0.03 /cheats 367M 367M 0M 1,504 1,504 0 0.10 0.18 /perl 316M 316M 0M 1,964 1,964 0 0.09 0.23 /gnu 311M 311M 0M 379 379 0 0.09 0.05 /bsd-sources 227M 227M 0M 264 264 0 0.06 0.03 /povray 195M 195M 0M 736 736 0 0.05 0.09 /infozip 166M 166M 0M 965 965 0 0.05 0.12 /security 162M 162M 0M 647 647 0 0.04 0.08 /os2 155M 155M 0M 1,045 1,045 0 0.04 0.12 /python 142M 142M 0M 13,929 13,929 0 0.04 1.66 /languages 138M 138M 0M 514 514 0 0.04 0.06 /garbo 126M 126M 0M 572 572 0 0.03 0.07 /x2ftp 119M 119M 0M 880 880 0 0.03 0.11 /avalon 115M 115M 0M 1,118 1,118 0 0.03 0.13 /gus 114M 114M 0M 232 232 0 0.03 0.03 /delphideli 108M 108M 0M 978 978 0 0.03 0.12 /X11 96M 96M 0M 617 617 0 0.03 0.07 /cdrom 78M 78M 0M 1,149 1,149 0 0.02 0.14 /mozilla 66M 66M 0M 20 20 0 0.02 0.00 /irc 66M 66M 0M 226 226 0 0.02 0.03 /tomahawk 62M 62M 0M 254 254 0 0.02 0.03 /unixfreeware 52M 52M 0M 262 262 0 0.01 0.03 /asme 43M 43M 0M 346 346 0 0.01 0.04 /mac 40M 40M 0M 125 125 0 0.01 0.01 /NetBSD 33M 33M 0M 2,971 2,971 0 0.01 0.35 /java 30M 30M 0M 311 311 0 0.01 0.04 /tcl 26M 26M 0M 65 65 0 0.01 0.01 /beos 23M 23M 0M 148 148 0 0.01 0.02 /obi 19M 19M 0M 133 133 0 0.01 0.02 /algorithms 11M 11M 0M 2,176 2,176 0 0.00 0.26 /math 11M 11M 0M 390 390 0 0.00 0.05 /internet 10M 10M 0M 324 324 0 0.00 0.04 /viseng 8M 8M 0M 25 25 0 0.00 0.00 /hamradio 8M 8M 0M 139 139 0 0.00 0.02 /netlib 8M 8M 0M 349 349 0 0.00 0.04 /unix-c 7M 7M 0M 66 66 0 0.00 0.01 /MacSciTech 5M 5M 0M 42 42 0 0.00 0.01 /ARCHIVE-INFO 3M 3M 0M 535 535 0 0.00 0.06 /png 2M 2M 0M 116 116 0 0.00 0.01 /PUB 2M 2M 0M 423 423 0 0.00 0.05 /sde 516k 516k 0k 31 31 0 0.00 0.00 /4cust 335k 335k 0k 5 5 0 0.00 0.00 /games_patches 36k 36k 0k 21 21 0 0.00 0.00 /ETC 23k 23k 0k 66 66 0 0.00 0.01 -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ 69 archives 365,881M 365,881M 0M 837,895 837,895 0 ~100.0 ~100.0 (k) = 1,000 bytes (M) = 1,000,000 bytes =============================================================================== Yesterday Average (30 days) Delta ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 837,895 643,140 194,755 Hits (HTTP) 206,574 -206,574 Hits (combo) 837,895 849,714 -11,819 Bytes (FTP) 365,881,877,981 291,122,199,792 74,759,678,189 Bytes (HTTP) 14,268,049,735 -14,268,049,735 Bytes (combo) 365,881,877,981 305,390,249,528 60,491,628,453 Past 7 Days Past 30 Days Since 26 Feb 1997 ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 4,973,007 19,294,219 223,602,211 Hits (HTTP) 0 6,197,228 154,476,821 Hits (combo) 4,973,007 25,491,447 378,079,042 Bytes (FTP) 2,285,255,042,107 8,733,665,993,784 91,116,087,942,662 Bytes (HTTP) 0 428,041,492,076 10,106,100,542,342 Bytes (combo) 2,285,255,042,107 9,161,707,485,860 101,222,188,484,904 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 03:13:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27986 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 03:13:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA27973 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 03:13:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@oslo.sl.slb.com) Received: from sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (sunw110 [192.23.231.54]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA29386 ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:11:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA22838; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 12:11:41 +0200 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980721184615.A15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> <19980722020343.C15764@notabene.zer0.org> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 22 Jul 1998 12:11:40 +0200 In-Reply-To: Gregory Sutter's message of Wed, 22 Jul 1998 02:03:43 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter writes: > While some of RMS's ideas are definitely on the edge of acceptability, > you can't deny that he has some fantastic thoughts about information > and property. Absolutely - "fantastic", as in "without any basis in reality". DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 06:27:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA29823 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:27:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1721.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA29774; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 06:27:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19577; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:25:47 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980722092547.C16686@zappo> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:25:47 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com> <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org>; from Gregory Sutter on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:31:51PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:31:51PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > I know this will just stir up trouble in the thread, but... > if X11 was free software instead of just open source, TOG couldn't have > changed the license to a semicommercial one. Of course, if free in Naw, then they could just have demanded copyright assignment like the FSF and then have changed the license into a fully commercial one. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 07:53:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14726 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:53:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA14715; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 07:53:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA23577; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:53:11 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA02038; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:53:06 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980722165304.57689@follo.net> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:53:04 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com> <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org>; from Gregory Sutter on Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:31:51PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:31:51PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > I know this will just stir up trouble in the thread, but... > if X11 was free software instead of just open source, TOG couldn't have > changed the license to a semicommercial one. This is wrong. If it had been locked-down software (e.g, GPL) as opposed to free software, they couldn't have added more licensing terms. With any fully free license (the type the FreeBSD project encourage :-) this could be done. Anybody could take most of the FreeBSD sources and do the same thing - however, we'd be likely to out-develop them, so it isn't of real interest. > Of course, if free in this case was GPL, X11 couldn't have been > packaged with any commerical Unix. There are tradeoffs to each type > of license... and I'm still not convinced which is best. It depend on what kind of project you're doing, how distributed the set of developers are, in which phase of development you are, and if you think a commercial entity is likely to be able to out-develop your free software team. Just be certain you can manage to have the right license at each and every step (including the ability to change some parts of the license during development if necessary). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 08:07:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17126 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:07:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17121 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:07:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04257; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:07:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807221507.JAA04257@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:07:26 -0600 To: Wes Peters , gsutter@pobox.com (Gregory Sutter) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> References: <19980721184615.A15764@notabene.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For one of Stallman's MILDER diatribes against Open Source, see http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html He, and others from the FSF, attack it (and *BSD) much more bluntly during speaking engagements. --Brett At 12:08 AM 7/22/98 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > >Gregory S. Sutter recently uttered: >> I disagree with you. The FSF doesn't oppose Open Source software >> any more than Linux opposes FreeBSD. > >You OBVIOUSLY haven't read anything written by RMS, including most >of the political diatributes included with every piece of FSF code >you get. > >I use, and appreciate, Emacs, GCC, GDB, etc., just as much as the >next guy, but Stallman's rantings about software hoarding are just >so much communist drivel. > >I contribute, and often convince my employers to contribute, directly >to the creators of software like GCC, GDB, etc., and no longer >contribute to the FSF directly, because I do not support their >political agenda or their attacks on software distributed under >Berkeley-style copyrights. Stallman has written at length in public >on the evils of the copyright and licensing scheme used by sendmail, >BIND, etc., which are virutally identical to the copyright and >license under which FreeBSD is distributed. > >If you give O'Reilly $10 to give to the FSF, you are paying RMS and >his political hacks to attack the FreeBSD license model on any front >they can. > >Brett hit this one on the nose: demand the right to direct where your >entry fee will go, or don't attend. Tell your Linux friends, too. > >-- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > >Wes Peters Softweyr LLC >http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 08:14:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18154 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:14:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18145 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04373; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:13:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807221513.JAA04373@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 09:13:47 -0600 To: Gregory Sutter , Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980722020343.C15764@notabene.zer0.org> References: <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> <19980721184615.A15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:03 AM 7/22/98 -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: >I _have_ read several of RMS's essays as well as the diatribes, as >you (mean to) say, that come with FSFware. I don't really consider >what RMS says as "ranting" and I worry about your seemingly- >automatic association of "communist" with "drivel". First of all, >it's not communist, it's socialist. Nope, it's communist. He wants all software development to be done by collectives that are subservient to the Supreme Soviet (oops, I mean the FSF). >While some of RMS's ideas are definitely on the edge of acceptability, >you can't deny that he has some fantastic thoughts about information >and property. "fantastic" as in "the stuff of fantasy." Richard still adheres to the extreme notion that the concept intellectual property is fundamentally wrong and evil, as are businesses that build intellectual capital. And, of course, now that the MacArthur Foundation has given him a "genius grant," he believes himself to be "Saint Stallman." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 08:21:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18898 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:21:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lorax.ubergeeks.com (lorax.ubergeeks.com [206.205.41.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18880; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 08:21:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Received: from localhost (adrian@localhost) by lorax.ubergeeks.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA00588; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:20:19 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from adrian@lorax.ubergeeks.com) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 11:20:19 -0400 (EDT) From: ADRIAN Filipi-Martin Reply-To: Adrian Filipi-Martin To: Brett Glass cc: Joey Garcia , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-Reply-To: <199807220615.AAA26625@lariat.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:59 AM 7/22/98 -0400, Adrian Filipi-Martin wrote: > > > I second this! The XFree86 folks are as OS neutral a free-source > >project as there ever will be. And it is one group which everyone is well > >put to support. > > > > Adrian > > I like this idea. With X being "privatized," it pays to contribute to keeping > the freely-available version up to date. > > --Brett Absolutly. This is a point I forgot to make. With XFree86 going their own way and the Open Group going theirs, it is indescribably important that the XFree86 people be supported. Who knows... showing that poeple/companies are more willing to give money to a truly open source project as opposed to paying under pressure to an organization with "open" and backs proprietary standards such as Motif.... maybe we a meessage couyld be sent to TOG to shape up. Yes, this last paragraph is very wishful thinking. I also wish the open software community wielded enough clout to make this happen. Hell, I wish they wielded enough clout to start working on their own standards without company politics... now what to we do about developer personalities... cheers, Adrian -- [ adrian@ubergeeks.com -- Ubergeeks Consulting -- http://www.ubergeeks.com/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 13:24:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17542 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:24:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (crbowman.erols.com [209.122.47.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17517 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from fermion (fermion [10.0.1.2]) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA01222; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:21:57 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Message-Id: <199807222121.QAA01222@quark.ChrisBowman.com> X-Sender: crb@quark.ChrisBowman.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:19:57 -0400 To: Terry Lambert From: "Christopher R. Bowman" Subject: Re: GNU software (was: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction) Cc: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Sm?rgrav), tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, mike@smith.net.au, brett@lariat.org, pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807220834.BAA09318@usr07.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:34 AM 7/22/98 , Terry Lambert wrote: >> > > I can also use ex instead of Emacs, but it's a little more difficult >> > > to use. >> > So use "vi", and avoid carpel-tunnel syndrome at the same time... >> >> Bullshit. Emacs does not require the use of a mouse any more than vi >> does, unless you're too lazy (or stupid) to learn to use it properly. >> Hint: (menu-bar-mode -1). > >The carpel-tunnel syndrome is caused by the large number of widely >spread keays in order to invoke a command, not by the use of a mouse. > >It is only Sun mice that are widely known as contributory factors... > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. I tend to believe otherwise. The four months of VLSI layout I did at school using magic did not involve a "large number of widely spread keys in order to invoke a command". What they did involve were large numbers of transitions from keyboard to mouse with the concomitant hyperextension of the wrist when done with out taking the eyes off screen. This was aggravated by approximately 15 hours per week of Ice Hockey. (I am right handed but left eye dominant so I tend to play "stick" sports left handed which in Ice hockey would aggravate carpel tunnel in the right hand since left handed players have their right hand at the top of the stick. In Ice Hockey the top stick hand performs most of the fine motor control.) -------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com http://www.ChrisBowman.com/~crb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 13:31:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18750 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:31:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18738 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id QAA20041 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:31:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199807222031.QAA20041@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Sun Joins Linux International in May 1998 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:31:00 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Looks like the article on Page 8 of the August 1998 Linux Journal shows Sun joining Linux international in May 1998. Anyone know if this still true or did it fall apart when the FreeBSD -Sun Microelectronics effort was cut? Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 13:34:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19424 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:34:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from canonware.com (canonware.com [206.184.206.112]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA19366 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:34:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jasone@canonware.com) Received: (qmail 12247 invoked by uid 1001); 22 Jul 1998 20:33:44 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 22 Jul 1998 20:33:44 -0000 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 13:33:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jason Evans To: Bill/Carolyn Pechter cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sun Joins Linux International in May 1998 In-Reply-To: <199807222031.QAA20041@shell.monmouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Bill/Carolyn Pechter wrote: > Looks like the article on Page 8 of the August 1998 Linux Journal shows > Sun joining Linux international in May 1998. > > Anyone know if this still true or did it fall apart when the > FreeBSD -Sun Microelectronics effort was cut? Completely separate groups within Sun headed these two efforts. They had absolutely no influence on each other. Jason Jason Evans Email: [jasone@canonware.com] Web: [http://www.canonware.com/~jasone] Home phone: [(650) 856-8204] Work phone: [(408) 774-8007] Quote: ["Invention is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration" - Thomas Edison] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 14:41:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00896 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:41:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (sac-port55.jps.net [209.63.114.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00891; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:41:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id OAA19223; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:43:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980722144350.F15764@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 14:43:50 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Eivind Eklund , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com> <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> <19980722165304.57689@follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <19980722165304.57689@follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 04:53:04PM +0200 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 04:53:04PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Tue, Jul 21, 1998 at 10:31:51PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > I know this will just stir up trouble in the thread, but... > > if X11 was free software instead of just open source, TOG couldn't have > > changed the license to a semicommercial one. > > This is wrong. If it had been locked-down software (e.g, GPL) as > opposed to free software, they couldn't have added more licensing > terms. With any fully free license (the type the FreeBSD project > encourage :-) this could be done. Anybody could take most of the > FreeBSD sources and do the same thing - however, we'd be likely to > out-develop them, so it isn't of real interest. Sorry, I made an unstated assumption. Locked-down free software is what I should have said. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 15:10:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06712 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:10:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (sac-port55.jps.net [209.63.114.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06633 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:10:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id PAA19266 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:12:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980722151250.G15764@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:12:50 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980721184615.A15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> <199807221507.JAA04257@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <199807221507.JAA04257@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 09:07:26AM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 09:07:26AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > For one of Stallman's MILDER diatribes against Open Source, see > http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html > He, and others from the FSF, attack it (and *BSD) much more bluntly > during speaking engagements. > >Gregory S. Sutter recently uttered: > >> I disagree with you. The FSF doesn't oppose Open Source software > >> any more than Linux opposes FreeBSD. I think you missed my analogy. Linux doesn't oppose BSD, it just uses a different and incompatible licensing scheme. The GPL isn't opposing the BSD License, it just is a different and incompatible licensing scheme. However immediately incompatible the two schemes are, they both support open source software. The GPL (and the FSF) support a subset of open source: totally free software. To get this discussion back to where it started, giving money to the FSF is giving money for free software. Is that bad? It is doubtful that RMS is going to convince a knowledgeable person to release under the GPL instead of a BSD-style license with any amount of money. If someone supports RMS's ideas about freedom of information, then they'll release GPLed software; if not, they'll release under a different license. Either way, if the source code is available, the goal has been reached. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 15:24:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08635 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (sac-port55.jps.net [209.63.114.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08600 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:24:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id PAA19281 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:26:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980722152643.H15764@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 15:26:43 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> <19980721184615.A15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> <19980722020343.C15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807221513.JAA04373@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <199807221513.JAA04373@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 09:13:47AM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 09:13:47AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:03 AM 7/22/98 -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > >I _have_ read several of RMS's essays as well as the diatribes, as > >you (mean to) say, that come with FSFware. I don't really consider > >what RMS says as "ranting" and I worry about your seemingly- > >automatic association of "communist" with "drivel". First of all, > >it's not communist, it's socialist. > > Nope, it's communist. He wants all software development to be done > by collectives that are subservient to the Supreme Soviet (oops, > I mean the FSF). Now you're obviously just ranting. First, there's nothing wrong with a collective working on a project. Isn't that how FreeBSD has been built? Second, nothing in the GPL has anything to do with subservience. If people accept the GPL, then the information will be free forever. If not, that's their choice. There's no hierarchy there. > >While some of RMS's ideas are definitely on the edge of acceptability, > >you can't deny that he has some fantastic thoughts about information > >and property. > > "fantastic" as in "the stuff of fantasy." Richard still adheres to the > extreme notion that the concept intellectual property is fundamentally > wrong and evil, as are businesses that build intellectual capital. And, I seem to have chosen the wrong word. :) I did say, however, that some of his ideas are "on the edge of acceptability", which is a definition of extreme. He may be right, though -- for most instances of intellectual property, there is really no need for ownership. Unfortunately, this view is incompatible with capitalism. That doesn't make it something to be reviled. Most people who immediately ridicule RMS's ideas are never fully cognizant of their implications. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 16:59:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24250 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:59:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from id.hungry.com (id.hungry.com [199.181.107.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA24245 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 16:59:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from self@id.hungry.com) From: self@id.hungry.com Received: (qmail 7063 invoked by uid 100); 22 Jul 1998 23:57:39 -0000 Date: 22 Jul 1998 23:57:38 -0000 Message-ID: <19980722235738.7062.qmail@id.hungry.com> To: mike@smith.net.au CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: Mike Smith's message of Tue, 21 Jul 1998 09:52:41 -0700 <199807211652.JAA00839@dingo.cdrom.com> Subject: Hacking Furiously for the Desktop Contest Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is there a tarball that's part of the XF86 release that contains the contrib binaries? I don't believe so. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jul 22 17:31:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00126 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:31:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29992 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 17:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14021; Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:30:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807230030.SAA14021@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:30:42 -0600 To: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-Reply-To: <19980722152643.H15764@notabene.zer0.org> References: <199807221513.JAA04373@lariat.lariat.org> <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> <19980721184615.A15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> <19980722020343.C15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807221513.JAA04373@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:26 PM 7/22/98 -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: >Most people who immediately >ridicule RMS's ideas are never fully cognizant of their implications. I'm very cognizant of their implications. And argued with Richard about them years before most people even had any idea who he was. That's why I see the GPL as scary; it's designed to implement part of a broad-based agenda. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 02:04:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA12224 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:04:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA12183 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:04:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@obie.softweyr.com) Received: (from wes@localhost) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03491; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:04:00 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes) From: Wes Peters Message-Id: <199807230904.DAA03491@obie.softweyr.com> Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-Reply-To: <19980722152643.H15764@notabene.zer0.org> from Gregory Sutter at "Jul 22, 98 03:26:43 pm" To: gsutter@pobox.com (Gregory Sutter) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:04:00 -0600 (MDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > > I seem to have chosen the wrong word. :) I did say, however, that some > of his ideas are "on the edge of acceptability", which is a definition > of extreme. He may be right, though -- for most instances of > intellectual property, there is really no need for ownership. > Unfortunately, this view is incompatible with capitalism. That > doesn't make it something to be reviled. Most people who immediately > ridicule RMS's ideas are never fully cognizant of their implications. Right -- anyone who disagrees with you is obviously too stupid to really understand what he's saying, or too lazy to bother to understand it. Did it ever occur to you that the rest of us may be fully cognizant of the implications of his ideas and STILL reject them as crackpot? Or, did it occur to you that WE now place you in the same category? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 02:51:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA18411 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:51:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from notabene.zer0.org (sac-port55.jps.net [209.63.114.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA18402 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:51:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@n1.dyn.ml.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by notabene.zer0.org (8.8.7/8.8.8) id CAA21242; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Message-ID: <19980723025446.D19731@notabene.zer0.org> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 02:54:46 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980722152643.H15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807230904.DAA03491@obie.softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <199807230904.DAA03491@obie.softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 03:04:00AM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 03:04:00AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, this view is incompatible with capitalism. That > > doesn't make it something to be reviled. Most people who immediately > > ridicule RMS's ideas are never fully cognizant of their implications. > > Right -- anyone who disagrees with you is obviously too stupid to > really understand what he's saying, or too lazy to bother to > understand it. > > Did it ever occur to you that the rest of us may be fully cognizant > of the implications of his ideas and STILL reject them as crackpot? > Or, did it occur to you that WE now place you in the same category? I didn't say that you specifically fit into that category. There is no way for me to know whether you, or anyone else on the list, had glanced at the FSF web pages once or twice, or was RMS's college roommate for four years. That's why I stated it as I did. You're twisting this as if it was a personal attack, which it wasn't. If you want to discuss the FSF's beliefs or the correctness of a mandatory donation to them for entrance to an open source convention, do so. Don't assume, with an all-inclusive "WE", that everyone else on the list is backing your point of view, and _please_ don't descend to name-calling. Regards, Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 03:34:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA23330 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:34:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.119.24.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA23273 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:33:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA13757; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:33:30 GMT Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA06349; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:33:29 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19980723123329.52636@follo.net> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:33:29 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> <19980721184615.A15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807220608.AAA00964@obie.softweyr.com> <19980722020343.C15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807221513.JAA04373@lariat.lariat.org> <19980722152643.H15764@notabene.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <19980722152643.H15764@notabene.zer0.org>; from Gregory Sutter on Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 03:26:43PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 03:26:43PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On Wed, Jul 22, 1998 at 09:13:47AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > Nope, it's communist. He wants all software development to be done > > by collectives that are subservient to the Supreme Soviet (oops, > > I mean the FSF). > > Now you're obviously just ranting. First, there's nothing wrong with > a collective working on a project. Isn't that how FreeBSD has been > built? No, it actually isn't. FreeBSD has been built (for a large part) from enlightened self-interest. My motivation for the not-immediately-needed work I do on FreeBSD is (1) It is fun :-) (2) I can "buy goodwill" from the community, meaning that as I do work, I'm more likely to get help if I'm stuck (3) Keeping noise down - by fixing the things that create noise/problems, I can help keep the general development along (4) General sense of engineering aestethics, and the hope that this will keep development speed up. (5) I like helping people :-) All of it lead up to my own interest, which tend towards creating great products based on FreeBSD. I'm not contributing because of some collective forcing me to do it "for the benefit of society" - I'm doing it out of my own interest. > Second, nothing in the GPL has anything to do with subservience. If > people accept the GPL, then the information will be free forever. > If not, that's their choice. There's no hierarchy there. The software won't be "free" forever - only 50 years after the death of the programmer (this may be changed to 100 years - there was some talk of changing the international agreement, but I never got the conclusion). Then it enter the public domain, and become truly free (and also possible to base properitary products on again). And we're talking a sort of hierarchy - "the benefits to society" placed over "the benefits to the individuals of the society". This is sometimes good, sometimes bad - but it should be recognized. > I seem to have chosen the wrong word. :) I did say, however, that some > of his ideas are "on the edge of acceptability", which is a definition > of extreme. He may be right, though -- for most instances of > intellectual property, there is really no need for ownership. > Unfortunately, this view is incompatible with capitalism. That > doesn't make it something to be reviled. Most people who immediately > ridicule RMS's ideas are never fully cognizant of their implications. This goes for all ideas and all persons. As for "incompatible with capitalism", that brings a sour taste to my mouth. In most cases it seems the alternative is to place all your eggs in one basket, pulling the society together to be one "virtual organism" instead of multiple competing ones. Without correct growth checks (and I've never seen any state having this), this inevitably lead to the wrong parts growing and creating more and more red tape. I think the need for intellectual property is the same as the need for physical property - I can see it deriving from the exact same causes. If you don't think of the right to hold property as a god-given right, you'll find that the causes and effects are about equal for physical and intellectual property. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 03:35:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA23660 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (geos01.oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com [134.32.44.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA23631 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:35:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from smoergrd@oslo.sl.slb.com) Received: from sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (sunw110 [192.23.231.54]) by oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA14637 ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:34:18 +0200 (MET DST) Received: by sunw110.oslo.Geco-Prakla.slb.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA23601; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:34:17 +0200 To: Wes Peters Cc: gsutter@pobox.com (Gregory Sutter), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <199807230904.DAA03491@obie.softweyr.com> Organization: Schlumberger Geco-Prakla X-Disclaimer: I speak only for myself. From: smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com (Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav) Date: 23 Jul 1998 12:34:17 +0200 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:04:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: Lines: 19 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters writes: > Did it ever occur to you that the rest of us may be fully cognizant > of the implications of his ideas and STILL reject them as crackpot? > Or, did it occur to you that WE now place you in the same category? Who're "we"? I don't think "we" - at least not all of us - are as quick as you are to place people in neat little labeled cubbyholes. There's no reason to categorize someone as a crackpot simply because he or she adheres to RMS's - or anyone else's - ideology. Everyone has a right to his or her opinion. I did not write off RMS because of his ideology - though I disapprove of it - but because of the way he is promoting it. Specifically, what I find most distasteful is his lack of respect for differing opinions and the disdain with which he treats anyone who does not see things his way. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - smoergrd@oslo.geco-prakla.slb.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 05:10:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06009 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 05:10:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA05908 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 05:09:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA12988 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 05:08:34 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807231208.FAA12988@implode.root.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: another wcarchive From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 05:08:34 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm beginning to sound like a "broken record" (pun intended :-)). 387GB/day is the new record. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: burden@web1.cdrom.com Received: from wcarchive.cdrom.com (wcarchive.cdrom.com [209.155.82.18]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA12294 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web1.cdrom.com (web1.cdrom.com [209.155.82.19]) by wcarchive.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA05258 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from burden@localhost) by web1.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA29695 for ftp-stats@ftp.cdrom.com; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:04:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from burden) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 03:04:27 -0700 (PDT) From: John Burden Message-Id: <199807231004.DAA29695@web1.cdrom.com> To: ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com Subject: Dual Log Stats - 1998/07/23 Dual Log Stats : Jul 23 1998 -------------------------------------------------- Current Record Delta --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Bytes 387,446,697,553 387,446,697,553 New Record! Files 1,003,879 1,315,689 -311,810 FTP Bytes 387,446,697,553 387,446,697,553 New Record! FTP Files 1,003,879 1,003,879 New Record! HTTP Bytes 58,081,249,072 -58,081,249,072 HTTP Files 567,700 -567,700 =============================================================================== Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ /FreeBSD 93,109M 93,109M 0M 444,258 444,258 0 24.03 44.25 /linux 68,450M 68,450M 0M 283,181 283,181 0 17.67 28.21 /3dfxmania 31,886M 31,886M 0M 7,776 7,776 0 8.23 0.77 /planetquake 29,158M 29,158M 0M 18,701 18,701 0 7.53 1.86 /simtelnet 24,480M 24,480M 0M 37,840 37,840 0 6.32 3.77 /idgames 22,944M 22,944M 0M 11,424 11,424 0 5.92 1.14 /gamesdomain 22,437M 22,437M 0M 2,659 2,659 0 5.79 0.26 /cnet 19,301M 19,301M 0M 11,123 11,123 0 4.98 1.11 /games 18,430M 18,430M 0M 14,711 14,711 0 4.76 1.47 /idgames2 13,874M 13,874M 0M 35,645 35,645 0 3.58 3.55 /demos 12,396M 12,396M 0M 24,575 24,575 0 3.20 2.45 /3drealms 9,355M 9,355M 0M 17,351 17,351 0 2.41 1.73 /XFree86 3,276M 3,276M 0M 4,562 4,562 0 0.85 0.45 /audio 2,634M 2,634M 0M 9,376 9,376 0 0.68 0.93 /sac 1,922M 1,922M 0M 2,378 2,378 0 0.50 0.24 /unreal 1,839M 1,839M 0M 5,433 5,433 0 0.47 0.54 /dresden 1,567M 1,567M 0M 2,998 2,998 0 0.40 0.30 /artpacks 1,447M 1,447M 0M 1,877 1,877 0 0.37 0.19 /tex 1,135M 1,135M 0M 11,454 11,454 0 0.29 1.14 /ARCHIVE 786M 786M 0M 1,072 1,072 0 0.20 0.11 /japanese 671M 671M 0M 685 685 0 0.17 0.07 /delphi 650M 650M 0M 12,205 12,205 0 0.17 1.22 /gnu 486M 486M 0M 1,487 1,487 0 0.13 0.15 /gt 433M 433M 0M 84 84 0 0.11 0.01 /novell 404M 404M 0M 1,854 1,854 0 0.10 0.18 /X11 390M 390M 0M 3,239 3,239 0 0.10 0.32 /abuse 372M 372M 0M 223 223 0 0.10 0.02 /delphideli 315M 315M 0M 1,833 1,833 0 0.08 0.18 /languages 305M 305M 0M 2,694 2,694 0 0.08 0.27 /perl 250M 250M 0M 2,887 2,887 0 0.06 0.29 /unixfreeware 225M 225M 0M 397 397 0 0.06 0.04 /bsd-sources 221M 221M 0M 85 85 0 0.06 0.01 /netlib 205M 205M 0M 7,145 7,145 0 0.05 0.71 /cheats 187M 187M 0M 702 702 0 0.05 0.07 /infozip 177M 177M 0M 978 978 0 0.05 0.10 /os2 170M 170M 0M 956 956 0 0.04 0.10 /gutenberg 167M 167M 0M 673 673 0 0.04 0.07 /java 159M 159M 0M 600 600 0 0.04 0.06 /irc 152M 152M 0M 449 449 0 0.04 0.04 /povray 145M 145M 0M 659 659 0 0.04 0.07 /security 129M 129M 0M 745 745 0 0.03 0.07 /python 126M 126M 0M 4,853 4,853 0 0.03 0.48 /x2ftp 120M 120M 0M 786 786 0 0.03 0.08 /garbo 109M 109M 0M 570 570 0 0.03 0.06 /avalon 84M 84M 0M 706 706 0 0.02 0.07 /gus 56M 56M 0M 162 162 0 0.01 0.02 /cdrom 46M 46M 0M 889 889 0 0.01 0.09 /tomahawk 43M 43M 0M 227 227 0 0.01 0.02 /beos 29M 29M 0M 188 188 0 0.01 0.02 /asme 23M 23M 0M 332 332 0 0.01 0.03 /hamradio 19M 19M 0M 788 788 0 0.01 0.08 /NetBSD 19M 19M 0M 971 971 0 0.00 0.10 /mac 17M 17M 0M 98 98 0 0.00 0.01 /mozilla 16M 16M 0M 9 9 0 0.00 0.00 /algorithms 12M 12M 0M 2,490 2,490 0 0.00 0.25 /tcl 11M 11M 0M 52 52 0 0.00 0.01 /math 9M 9M 0M 241 241 0 0.00 0.02 /internet 8M 8M 0M 239 239 0 0.00 0.02 /MacSciTech 7M 7M 0M 37 37 0 0.00 0.00 /unix-c 5M 5M 0M 49 49 0 0.00 0.00 /obi 4M 4M 0M 44 44 0 0.00 0.00 /ARCHIVE-INFO 4M 4M 0M 506 506 0 0.00 0.05 /png 2M 2M 0M 62 62 0 0.00 0.01 /PUB 2M 2M 0M 439 439 0 0.00 0.04 /4cust 976k 976k 0k 7 7 0 0.00 0.00 /sde 935k 935k 0k 21 21 0 0.00 0.00 /viseng 398k 398k 0k 57 57 0 0.00 0.01 /games_patches 36k 36k 0k 18 18 0 0.00 0.00 /ETC 22k 22k 0k 64 64 0 0.00 0.01 - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ 69 archives 387,446M 387,446M 0M 1,003,879 1,003,879 0 ~100.0 ~100.0 (k) = 1,000 bytes (M) = 1,000,000 bytes =============================================================================== Yesterday Average (30 days) Delta - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 1,003,879 657,862 346,017 Hits (HTTP) 193,369 -193,369 Hits (combo) 1,003,879 851,232 152,647 Bytes (FTP) 387,446,697,553 295,933,732,101 91,512,965,452 Bytes (HTTP) 13,437,974,083 -13,437,974,083 Bytes (combo) 387,446,697,553 309,371,706,185 78,074,991,368 Past 7 Days Past 30 Days Since 26 Feb 1997 - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 5,332,391 19,735,878 224,606,090 Hits (HTTP) 0 5,801,083 154,476,821 Hits (combo) 5,332,391 25,536,961 379,082,921 Bytes (FTP) 2,362,791,618,126 8,878,011,963,036 91,503,534,640,215 Bytes (HTTP) 0 403,139,222,518 10,106,100,542,342 Bytes (combo) 2,362,791,618,126 9,281,151,185,554 101,609,635,182,457 ------- End of Forwarded Message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 05:23:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA07216 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 05:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA07210 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 05:23:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08947; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:14:05 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35B72911.99598B45@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:14:09 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: another wcarchive References: <199807231208.FAA12988@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman wrote: > > I'm beginning to sound like a "broken record" (pun intended :-)). > 387GB/day is the new record. and this time the OS are in the right order :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 07:43:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA25954 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:43:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA25935; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 07:43:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yzMaP-0005tq-00; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:43:13 +0200 Message-ID: <19980723164312.C21310@cityip.co.za> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:43:12 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The following was posted to a mailing list dealing (more or less) with general Internet industry events here in South Africa. The posting is by an old net.acquaintance of mine - a NetBSD man, he. However, I found the idea intriguing, and I wondered if anyone in the FreeBSD community might not have useful input. Bear in mind that: (a) SA hangs precariously in the balance between first and third world. (b) SA is going through a bit of a financial crisis. (c) The SA Government and civil service are still reeling from the incredible changes which took place in this country but a few years ago, and are therefore in a state of flux. (d) There are many (MANY) initiatives underway by both the SA Government and the private sector to bring telecommunications (and the net) to disadvantaged (and still very poor) rural communities. The possible implications for, say, health care (to name but one field) you can probably imagine. The posting has resulted in a fairly lively thread, including the predictable flames (including one from a Microsoft employee) about "free" software having a higher cost of ownership, no support, no continuity, etc. etc. UniForum SA is the SA arm of UniForum, and it handles the registration for the co.za domain. It is therefore sitting on a large cash cache (haha), and for some time there has been lively debate about how it should apply this money. Does anyone have any statistics / stories about free software / open source software being successfully applied in government / civil service anywhere in the world? I do seem to remember something about the US Post Office using Linux... ----- Forwarded message from Lucio de Re ----- > It has been suggested, somewhat tongue-in-cheek, that UniForum SA (no, > I don't currently have a bee in my bonnet about them, as you'll see) > should be petitioning the South African Government to mandate the use > of one or more flavours of Free Unix and other Open Source Software in > Government Departments wherever it is not absolutely essential to use > proprietary software. This mandate should even require Government > Departments to investigate the possibility of using Free Software to > replace existing proprietary systems, and in addition should require > careful consideration of submissions to ensure that they facilitate, > rather than preclude, later migration to Free Software. > > The concept is nothing short of genial, specially in the cash-strapped > situation our government finds itself. Irrespective, then, of a role > UniForum may be able to play in this issue, I'd like to open a > discussion as to whether this is as desirable as I perceive it, what > its merits and disadvantages are, and how (a) Government should embark > on such a project and (b) how we can lobby Government to do so and (c) > how Government can rely on the local community to ensure that the > necessary support is available. > > Just an idea, but one that has now been bugging me for a while, and > definitely required venting. > > ++L ----- End forwarded message ----- -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 09:01:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA08175 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:01:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (root@intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA08141; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:01:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo.tis [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA09610; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:56:56 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <35B75D4F.A7E78418@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:57:03 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: The International School X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Johann Visagie CC: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) References: <19980723164312.C21310@cityip.co.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org on a (slightly :-) related subject from a mailing list I sometimes read: ========= 1. On 7 July ,the Malaysian Ministry for Domestic Trade and Consumer Affairs will start action against 20 companies for unlicensed use of software. These major users include banks, insurance, finance and securities companies, architect and engineering firms. Company owners face jail and sentences up to 5 years and heavy fines if convicted of unauthorized use of software. Malaysia set 10 May as a deadline for legalizing all software use, after a one month awareness raising campaign. High profile action by the ministry's Enforcement Division aims to reassure IT companies of Malaysia's determination to act as a responsible mass-user of IT in all sectors. 2. In an associated move, the Ministry of Education has established a loan fund for teachers to purchase PCs. Besides its "smart schools" initiative (which applies to 90 trial schools),the Minister has stated that all Malaysian schools should draw up a strategic plan for the introduction of IT into school management and into the classroom. The Deputy Minister has recently encouraged companies to donate replaced equipment to educational institutions, since older generation equipment is still adequate for educational purposes. ========= might be a good place for some advocacy.. I was quite amused about the 'open source town meeting' messages - why are they donating to FSF, when FSF's web pages make such a point of distinguishing between open source and free software? :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 09:39:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15177 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:39:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dillinger.io.com (euclid@dillinger.io.com [199.170.88.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15149 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 09:39:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from euclid@dillinger.io.com) Received: (from euclid@localhost) by dillinger.io.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) id LAA09235; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:39:04 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19980723113904.27081@io.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 11:39:04 -0500 From: Matthew Jason Euclid Barnhart To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Xig's maXimum cde/OS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i X-Barnyard-Animals: Chickens Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Would this be a replacement for the (long-ago) mentioned FreeBSD/Xig "Professional Desktop"? http://www.xig.com/media/980710pr.html -- Matthew Jason Euclid Barnhart - euclid@io.com - http://www.io.com/~trc/Euclid/ The Transcontinental Recording Company - trc@io.com - http://www.io.com/~trc/ "God shows his contempt for wealth by the kind of person He selects to receive it." -- Austin O'Malley (1858-1952) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 10:12:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21201 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:12:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21184 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:11:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id NAA25448; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:11:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199807231711.NAA25448@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: DECnet To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:11:30 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Perhaps this shold've gone to hackers -- however: Is anyone working DECnet this for FreeBSD. It looks like Linux is coming out with DECnet capability. I guess from the website --http://eeshack3.swan.ac.uk/~gw7rrm/DECnet/status.html > > 23/7/98 > > By the time you read this my new version of DECnet code will be on the > ftp site. There are user tools available as well. The code has been largely > derrived from work done by Eduardo Marcelo Serrat and Patrick Caulfield. > User level tools are available on Eduardo's ftp site. Expect another version > soon, there are many loose ends that need sorting out. The version for 2.1.xx > kernels will never make it into the mainstream kernel now before the next > developmet series. Expect to see it as soon as the next development series of > kernel is announced. As usual, please send bug reports to me > SteveW@ACM.org as well as any comments etc. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 10:33:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23808 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:33:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (daemon@smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23798; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:33:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06188; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:32:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd006121; Thu Jul 23 10:32:36 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25434; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 10:32:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807231732.KAA25434@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) To: wjv@cityip.co.za (Johann Visagie) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:32:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19980723164312.C21310@cityip.co.za> from "Johann Visagie" at Jul 23, 98 04:43:12 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The posting has resulted in a fairly lively thread, including the predictable > flames (including one from a Microsoft employee) about "free" software having > a higher cost of ownership, no support, no continuity, etc. etc. I would actually be interested in reading this -- is it archived on the net somewhere (via hypermail or whatever)? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 12:36:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16294 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:36:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx.serv.net (mx.serv.net [205.153.153.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16225 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:36:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fewtch@serv.net) Received: from desktop-pentium (dialup543.serv.net [207.207.70.108]) by mx.serv.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA16013 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:35:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19980723123524.0081c9a0@mx.serv.net> X-Sender: fewtch@mx.serv.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:35:24 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Tim Gerchmez Subject: My verdict on 2.2.7... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, finally got done installing 2.2.7, and unfortunately, *MY* verdict is in (although admittedly I'm not "the judge"): Don't bother. (1) The new sysinstall is so buggy, you'd better keep a can of RAID by your computer when using it (I'll explain as I go along here)... (2) The new update of X-windows is either really buggy, or it was the sysinstall utility that screwed it up (or a combination of both). Parts of the PC98 server libraries got mixed in with the regular Xfree86 libraries. Not all the new X binaries work properly, either. (3) Package dependencies are all screwed up (half of what I tried said "Can't find libxx.xx.x), even after installing the dependencies given by pkg_add -v. Also, **some packages that exist on the site aren't listed in the sysinstall package installer** (yes, I DID download the new INDEX file), including my favorite Email reader, xfmail (I had to install it manually via pkg_add, and grab an older version of XForms from the 2.2.6 installation). (4) Certain problems exist with PPP. For one, I noticed that it was slower than a snail at certain times. Also, when called by sysinstall in getting the network up, an error message appeared saying something like "Warning: Config: dns: no such key word. Warning: enable: Failed 1." I'll leave someone else to figure this out. (5) When installing X, if you only select certain parts of it, it doesn't get installed at all. The only way to install it in sysinstall is to select ALL of it, then go back and deselect what you DON'T want. This is an obvious bug. Even after doing this, the wrong files were installed (I got a mix of PC98 and regular server stuff that just didn't work together correctly. I had to extensively edit XF86Config by hand. I had no problems like these whatsoever when installing 2.2.6. In my opinion, 2.2.7 is not production quality, and I think this verdict will be slowly arriving from more people than just me (they may even yank this version - the sysinstall is just impossibly buggy). They've basically crossed v2.2.6 with v3.0 here, and the two just don't seem to mix properly :-(. I'm going back to 2.2.6 until 3.0 is out (OF COURSE I deleted all of 2.2.6, so it's time to start downloading again............................................................) Anyone with similar experiences to mine with v2.2.7 is invited to Email me at fewtch@serv.net. Tim -- My web site starts at http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/index.html - lots of goodies for everyone, have a look if you have the time. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 12:55:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19998 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:55:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA19988 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:55:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA00678; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807231953.MAA00678@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Tim Gerchmez cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:35:24 PDT." <3.0.5.32.19980723123524.0081c9a0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 12:53:25 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Most of these seem to be related to a single bug in sysinstall (which should be fixed by now). > Well, finally got done installing 2.2.7, and unfortunately, *MY* verdict is > in (although admittedly I'm not "the judge"): Don't bother. > > (1) The new sysinstall is so buggy, you'd better keep a can of RAID by your > computer when using it (I'll explain as I go along here)... This sounds like it's not so much an item as an observation. > (2) The new update of X-windows is either really buggy, or it was the > sysinstall utility that screwed it up (or a combination of both). Parts of > the PC98 server libraries got mixed in with the regular Xfree86 libraries. > Not all the new X binaries work properly, either. Can you be more specific about "work properly"? > (3) Package dependencies are all screwed up (half of what I tried said > "Can't find libxx.xx.x), even after installing the dependencies given by > pkg_add -v. Also, **some packages that exist on the site aren't listed in > the sysinstall package installer** (yes, I DID download the new INDEX > file), including my favorite Email reader, xfmail (I had to install it > manually via pkg_add, and grab an older version of XForms from the 2.2.6 > installation). The list in sysinstall is based on the INDEX file it retrieves from the distribution site. If there's stuff on the site that's not in the INDEX, that's something you should take up with the maintainer. It's also possible that the libraries are not being found because the package is not reloading the shared library cache. Have you tried rebooting or running 'ldconfig -mv'? > (4) Certain problems exist with PPP. For one, I noticed that it was slower > than a snail at certain times. Also, when called by sysinstall in getting > the network up, an error message appeared saying something like "Warning: > Config: dns: no such key word. Warning: enable: Failed 1." I'll leave > someone else to figure this out. That's one for Brian. > (5) When installing X, if you only select certain parts of it, it doesn't > get installed at all. The only way to install it in sysinstall is to > select ALL of it, then go back and deselect what you DON'T want. This is > an obvious bug. Even after doing this, the wrong files were installed (I > got a mix of PC98 and regular server stuff that just didn't work together > correctly. I had to extensively edit XF86Config by hand. This is the same bug as in (2). Please only complain about one bug once. 8) > I had no problems like these whatsoever when installing 2.2.6. In my > opinion, 2.2.7 is not production quality, and I think this verdict will be > slowly arriving from more people than just me (they may even yank this > version - the sysinstall is just impossibly buggy). I think you are sadly confusing sysinstall with the operating system. "They" are more likely to fix the bugs in sysinstall than "yank" it. > They've basically > crossed v2.2.6 with v3.0 here, and the two just don't seem to mix properly > :-(. If you want to make pronouncements like this, you'd better be ready with your CVS logs to prove it. We have all our source out on display; if you can prove the above, go ahead. Otherwise I think that a public apology would be in order. > Anyone with similar experiences to mine with v2.2.7 is invited to Email me > at fewtch@serv.net. Actually, people with problems with 2.2.7 are encouraged to mention these problems in detail on the -stable list so that we can *fix* them. Of course, if you had purchased a 2.2.6 CDROM in order to sponsor our development efforts, you wouldn't have to download anything... -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 13:38:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01092 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:38:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from donny.ida.net (mail.ida.net [204.228.203.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01073 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 13:38:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from muck@ida.net) Received: from falcon (tc-if5-7.ida.net [208.141.175.16]) by donny.ida.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA04521; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:38:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19980723203807.00667db0@mail.ida.net> X-Sender: muck@mail.ida.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 14:38:07 -0600 To: Tim Gerchmez From: Mike Jackson Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:35 PM 7/23/98 -0700, you wrote: [...] >I'm going back to 2.2.6 until 3.0 is out (OF COURSE I deleted all of >2.2.6, so it's time to start downloading >again............................................................) It might be a good idea to create a separate ufs partition and save your downloaded files on it. And keep the partition unmounted unless you're reinstalling, that way if your system crashes the data on that partition wont be touched. That's what I do. Then, if I have to reinstall, I can do it off of that partition, which is much faster that downloading it all again or installing off of a FAT16 partition. Mike To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 15:24:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16038 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:24:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16026 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:24:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04750; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:24:10 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35B7B80A.755D8D83@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:24:10 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav" Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980722152643.H15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807230904.DAA03491@obie.softweyr.com> <19980723025446.D19731@notabene.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 03:04:00AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > > > > Unfortunately, this view is incompatible with capitalism. That > > > doesn't make it something to be reviled. Most people who immediately > > > ridicule RMS's ideas are never fully cognizant of their implications. > > > > Right -- anyone who disagrees with you is obviously too stupid to > > really understand what he's saying, or too lazy to bother to > > understand it. > > > > Did it ever occur to you that the rest of us may be fully cognizant > > of the implications of his ideas and STILL reject them as crackpot? > > Or, did it occur to you that WE now place you in the same category? > > I didn't say that you specifically fit into that category. There is > no way for me to know whether you, or anyone else on the list, had > glanced at the FSF web pages once or twice, or was RMS's college > roommate for four years. That's why I stated it as I did. You're > twisting this as if it was a personal attack, which it wasn't. You said this in response to my previous email; I had to believe it was aimed at me as well as others. I did not take it as a personal attack, but rather as an attack on the ability of myself and others of similar beliefs to intelligently perceive the intricate insights of RMSism. > If you want to discuss the FSF's beliefs or the correctness of a > mandatory donation to them for entrance to an open source convention, > do so. Don't assume, with an all-inclusive "WE", that everyone else > on the list is backing your point of view, and _please_ don't descend > to name-calling. That is what we are doing, and who are you to be giving advice? If YOU want to discuss the FSF's beliefs or the IDIOCY of a "mandatory donation" (look it up, the two words are mutually exclusive), then argue the points of conversation rather than labelling your opponents ill-informed, lazy, or just too dim-witted to follow the conversation. And, DES, when I wrote "WE", I meant "WE who believe that RMS' ideas on intellectual property are crackpot, and therefore those who follow along with him must be crackpot too." I neither know nor care wether you are a member of this set, but will defend to death if necessary your right to share your ideas with us. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 15:34:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17430 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:34:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17374; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:33:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04767; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:32:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35B7BA13.EF8A4ED2@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:32:51 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) References: <199807231732.KAA25434@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > The posting has resulted in a fairly lively thread, including the predictable > > flames (including one from a Microsoft employee) about "free" software having > > a higher cost of ownership, no support, no continuity, etc. etc. > > I would actually be interested in reading this -- is it archived on > the net somewhere (via hypermail or whatever)? I'd like to see it as well. I once wrote one of these, a comparison of the costs of installing my Security Toolkit/UNIX product vs. COPS for a largish network of UNIX servers and workstations. We came out on top, by far, but that was the whole point, wasn't it? It'd be interesting to hear what the Evil Empire has to say about cost of ownership of NT vs. FreeBSD/Linux/anything on the planet that doesn't crash daily. FreeBSD vs. NT anecdote: I was chatting with a friend at Intel here in town yesterday, and I asked him about the source code server I setup before I left. He said they've bought several more Perforce licenses since I left; they have some engineers from a site in California and one from Oregon using it over the intranet now. Other that installing the license file, they haven't touched it since I left. This is (amusingly enough) a K5-133 running 2.2.5 + a couple of security updates, and hasn't been rebooted since they changed its IP address on Jan 20. ;^) This machine originally ran NT Workstation 4.0, but was crashing and eating its disk drive, physically ruining the disk, about every 5 weeks. Since I installed FreeBSD on a new IDE drive, it has been rock-solid stable. The machine also runs Apache 1.1(something) with a few local HTML pages for testing against, and ftpd. So yes, Intel Corp. is an official FreeBSD user too. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 15:43:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19049 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:43:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18950 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:42:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04784; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:42:19 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35B7BC4B.5FF08029@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:42:19 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Jackson CC: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... References: <1.5.4.32.19980723203807.00667db0@mail.ida.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Jackson wrote: > > At 12:35 PM 7/23/98 -0700, you wrote: > > [...] > > >I'm going back to 2.2.6 until 3.0 is out (OF COURSE I deleted all of > >2.2.6, so it's time to start downloading > >again............................................................) > > It might be a good idea to create a separate ufs partition and save your > downloaded files on it. And keep the partition unmounted unless you're > reinstalling, that way if your system crashes the data on that partition > wont be touched. That's what I do. Then, if I have to reinstall, I can do > it off of that partition, which is much faster that downloading it all again > or installing off of a FAT16 partition. I keep mine on a separate ISO9660 filesystem, which has the added advantage of being a read-only media and therefore not overwritable. It costs less than magnetic media, too; the physical mechanism is only about $40 these days and enough media to store the entire FreeBSD distribution is only $25. You can even get it pre-packaged for that price, and the proceeds go to the FreeBSD Project. Cool, eh? For more info, see http://www.cdrom.com/ and look for the FreeBSD 2.2.7 link. It should be there in a few days. When you sign up, click the "subscription" button and they'll send you each release as it comes out, while billing your credit card a mere $25 (in the USA; your exchange rates and shipping may differ, depending on how geopolitically enabled you are). ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 15:49:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20136 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:49:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20116 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 15:49:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05957; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:48:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807232248.QAA05957@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:48:42 -0600 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980723123524.0081c9a0@mx.serv.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yikes! Would a few folks care to comment on whether these problems are widespread and/or serious enough to warrant delaying upgrades? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 16:03:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21704 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA21685; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:03:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA01643; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199807232301.QAA01643@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0zeta 7/24/97 To: Brett Glass cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, stable@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:48:42 MDT." <199807232248.QAA05957@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:01:26 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Would a few folks care to comment on whether these problems are widespread > and/or serious enough to warrant delaying upgrades? There's an observed problem with sysinstall where it's not handling X correctly; we're cutting a new release right now to test this, and there should be an updated boot image on ftp.freebsd.org shortly. See the CVS logs for the grisly details. As for the reported package problems; the package collection is regularly heavily used so such a widespread set of problems suddenly emerging is surprising. We're not aware of any problems, and the plaintiff has been unwilling to specify exactly what, if any, they actually encountered. We'll be trying hard to break it tomorrow. I would, as always, be suggesting that you install/upgrade under controlled circumstances in order to qualify the process for your local conditions. If you do so, please take a few moments to report your results in detail so that corrective action (if any is required) can be taken. Thanks. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 16:12:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23364 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:12:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23346; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:12:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06342; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:11:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807232311.RAA06342@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:11:46 -0600 To: Eivind Eklund , Gregory Sutter , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction In-Reply-To: <19980722165304.57689@follo.net> References: <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> <19980722000542.56979@futuresouth.com> <19980721223151.B15764@notabene.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:53 PM 7/22/98 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >This is wrong. If it had been locked-down software (e.g, GPL) as >opposed to free software, they couldn't have added more licensing >terms. With any fully free license (the type the FreeBSD project >encourage :-) this could be done. Anybody could take most of the >FreeBSD sources and do the same thing - however, we'd be likely to >out-develop them, so it isn't of real interest. I think competition between commercial and open source versions of the same software is great. It keeps the commercial developers hopping when they might rest on their laurels; even if they're not "out-developed," they still need to stay a good deal ahead of the pack or add other value (as BSDI does). In return for their extra effort, they can earn a good living. At the same time, the open source version provides a route for widespread review of the source. So, let's encourage people to take our source and go private if they're willing to shoulder that burden. In the long run, all software will get better, and we'll have more options. That's what, I think, we really want. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 17:39:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04294 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:39:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (daemon@smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04273; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17756; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:38:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd017685; Thu Jul 23 17:38:50 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA21575; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 17:38:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199807240038.RAA21575@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:38:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: eivind@yes.no, gsutter@pobox.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199807232311.RAA06342@lariat.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Jul 23, 98 05:11:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >This is wrong. If it had been locked-down software (e.g, GPL) as > >opposed to free software, they couldn't have added more licensing > >terms. With any fully free license (the type the FreeBSD project > >encourage :-) this could be done. Anybody could take most of the > >FreeBSD sources and do the same thing - however, we'd be likely to > >out-develop them, so it isn't of real interest. > > I think competition between commercial and open source versions of the same > software is great. It keeps the commercial developers hopping when they might > rest on their laurels; even if they're not "out-developed," they still > need to stay a good deal ahead of the pack or add other value (as BSDI > does). In return for their extra effort, they can earn a good living. > > At the same time, the open source version provides a route for > widespread review of the source. So, let's encourage people to take our > source and go private if they're willing to shoulder that burden. In the > long run, all software will get better, and we'll have more options. > That's what, I think, we really want. While so far I think the XFree group is the front running candidate to whom I'd forward entry fees... What about Tim Wilkerson, who has just released KAFFE under GPL, and has actually implemented what appears to be the first freely available version of classes.zip -- shrugging off the not-inconsiderable Sun JVM licensing fees that companies must pay to use JVM? I'm sure Tim is about to need funding for legal help to prove the clean-room implemetnation. Sun is apparently going to audit him to make sure that it was a clean-room implementation. Another potential candidate is the Willows people, who have released their code under GPL. It provides a Windows-compatible compilation platform for use by appications vendors wanting to port Windows apps to non-Windows systems; in addition, it provides for an ABI emulation environment as part of the developement code (even though it specifically disclaims an intent at a WABI)... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 21:44:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA13438 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:44:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA13433 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 21:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA01938; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:13:48 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id OAA10438; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:13:48 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980724141348.X716@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:13:48 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: Brian Behlendorf , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: someone should be starting an archive of these... References: <19980722212025.20301.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980722212025.20301.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980724093021.J716@freebie.lemis.com> <19980724003043.22764.qmail@hyperreal.org> <19980724101026.K716@freebie.lemis.com> <35B80E36.D5D5D549@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35B80E36.D5D5D549@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 10:31:50PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moving to -chat) On Thursday, 23 July 1998 at 22:31:50 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >>> - yet a whole ship was more or less incapacitated (it had to be >>> *towed* to port!) >> >> Claims were made to that effect. I personally think that a problem of >> that magnitude would have become known earlier. > > Hah! Little do you know! I used to work as a test engineer and > programmer for defense contractors. We had one night in a test > lab when a fellow test engineer, Sue Duhring, was idly tapping the > enter key on the keyboard for the U.S. Air Force Airborne Launch > Control Center -- the "doomsday bird" that is the backup control > center for the Intercontinental Ballistic Missile wings. The > system crashed. She happened to hit on a rate that caused the system > to read the keyboard buffer slowly due to a pathological problem, > and the keyboard buffer overflowed and overwrote something *very* > important. > > We caught this in testing by sheer luck. > >>> for days because of this. >>> >>> There shouldn't be *anything* that can be typed into the >>> system that could have such an effect, intentional or not! >> >> Sure, but is that an OS problem? GIGO: write bad software for FreeBSD >> and it'll run badly too. >> >> I think Microsoft's "operating systems" stink. But we've got to >> remember that applications aren't just operating systems, and this one >> just doesn't look like an OS problem. > > Exactly right: it looks like a combination "bonehead programmer" and > "inadequate testing" problem, which cannot be attributed to Microsoft, > but rather to the application developers. They need to change their > GIGO to GIDO: Garbage In, Diagnostics Out (or to my favorite variant > of this, GIAO: Garbage In, Abuse Out. ;^) Yes, I like that one. Check out the vinum sources: there's a function in there called throw_rude_remark. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jul 23 22:45:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21342 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:45:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (mail.tor.shaw.wave.ca [24.64.63.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21337 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 1998 22:45:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from purebeef@shaw.wave.ca) Received: from shaw.wave.ca ([24.64.141.185]) by norquay.tor.shaw.wave.ca (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA23742; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:46:34 -0400 Message-ID: <35B81F0C.C4DC29B6@shaw.wave.ca> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:43:40 -0400 From: Lanny Baron Organization: York Hill Foods X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... References: <199807231953.MAA00678@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Smith wrote: > > Anyone with similar experiences to mine with v2.2.7 is invited to Email me > > at fewtch@serv.net. > > Actually, people with problems with 2.2.7 are encouraged to mention > these problems in detail on the -stable list so that we can *fix* them. > > Of course, if you had purchased a 2.2.6 CDROM in order to sponsor our > development efforts, you wouldn't have to download anything... > > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message I must reply to this. Do you have any idea how many times i have complained only to find it was my own fault. How can one say that a version of a greater value or number is less than its predecessor? I invite you to my condo to fix my pc and make all work. Don't mean to badger you, but with the ppl at the helm of FreeBSD, I know that compedence is a forfront. l8trz Lanny To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 00:43:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08084 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:43:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08067; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:43:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id JAA25426; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:43:00 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:43:00 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Terry Lambert , Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) References: <199807231732.KAA25434@usr04.primenet.com> <35B7BA13.EF8A4ED2@softweyr.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 24 Jul 1998 09:42:59 +0200 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of "Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:32:51 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA08069 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters writes: > haven't touched it since I left. This is (amusingly enough) a K5-133 > running 2.2.5 + a couple of security updates, and hasn't been rebooted > since they changed its IP address on Jan 20. ;^) What, they rebooted the computer just for an IP change? The mind boggles. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 00:50:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09271 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:50:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (0@ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA09232 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 00:50:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id JAA25964; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:50:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:50:04 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav" Subject: Re: "Open Source Town Meeting" supports only one faction References: <19980722152643.H15764@notabene.zer0.org> <199807230904.DAA03491@obie.softweyr.com> <19980723025446.D19731@notabene.zer0.org> <35B7B80A.755D8D83@softweyr.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling Coidan =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 24 Jul 1998 09:50:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: Wes Peters's message of "Thu, 23 Jul 1998 16:24:10 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id AAA09257 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters writes: > And, DES, when I wrote "WE", I meant "WE who believe that RMS' ideas > on intellectual property are crackpot, and therefore those who follow > along with him must be crackpot too." I neither know nor care wether > you are a member of this set, but will defend to death if necessary > your right to share your ideas with us. ;^) Hmm... "Frère, loin de me léser, nos différences m'enrichissent" -- Antoine de St Exupery Words to live by. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 01:48:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA20991 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:48:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA20979 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:48:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA02742; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:17:10 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id SAA12396; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:17:03 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980724181703.L716@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:17:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Wes Peters Cc: Terry Lambert , Johann Visagie , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) References: <199807231732.KAA25434@usr04.primenet.com> <35B7BA13.EF8A4ED2@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3Cxzpn29zvgn0=2Efsf=40hrotti=2Eifi=2Euio=2Eno=3E=3B_from?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Dag-Erling_Coidan_Sm=F8rgrav__on_Fri=2C_Jul_24=2C_1998_a?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?t_09:42:59AM_+0200?= WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (trimmed -advocacy) On Friday, 24 July 1998 at 9:42:59 +0200, Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > Wes Peters writes: >> haven't touched it since I left. This is (amusingly enough) a K5-133 >> running 2.2.5 + a couple of security updates, and hasn't been rebooted >> since they changed its IP address on Jan 20. ;^) > > What, they rebooted the computer just for an IP change? The mind > boggles. That would be a bit over the top, wouldn't it? Sounds like Microsoft brain damage. But Wes didn't say that they booted it then, just that they didn't boot it since. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 01:57:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA22884 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:57:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA22858 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 01:57:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yzddK-000191-00; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:55:22 +0200 Message-ID: <19980724105522.A4384@cityip.co.za> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:55:22 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Wes Peters Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) Mail-Followup-To: Wes Peters , chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199807231732.KAA25434@usr04.primenet.com> <35B7BA13.EF8A4ED2@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35B7BA13.EF8A4ED2@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Jul 23, 1998 at 04:32:51PM -0600 X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc X-URL: http://www.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 23 Jul 1998 at 16:32 SAT, Wes Peters wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > I would actually be interested in reading this -- is it archived on > > the net somewhere (via hypermail or whatever)? > > I'd like to see it as well. I've put up a hastily hypermail-archived copy of the list in question at: http://ns.cityip.co.za/~wjv/ioz/ The thread in question is towards the end. [ I replied to Terry Lambert's original question, CC'ing to -chat and -advocacy, and the MLM rejected my posting saying I had CC'd to _three_ lists (-chat, and -advocacy twice). Strange. ] -- V Johann Visagie | Email: wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 05:44:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29958 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:44:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from garlic.acadiau.ca (root@garlic.acadiau.ca [131.162.2.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA29953 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 05:44:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc@acadiau.ca) Received: from iceberg (iceberg [131.162.2.91]) by garlic.acadiau.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA07611; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:43:47 -0300 (ADT) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:43:46 -0300 (ADT) From: Marc Fournier X-Sender: marc@iceberg To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: the_gang@hub.org Subject: [FYI] Tribute to the Year 2000 (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (Read to the tune of "Gilligan's Island," more or less) Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale Of the doom that is our fate. That started when programmers used Two digits for a date. Two digits for a date. Main memory was smaller then; Hard disks were smaller, too. "Four digits are extravagant, So let's get by with two. So let's get by with two." "This works through 1999," The programmers did say. "Unless we rewrite before that It all will go away. It all will go away." But Management had not a clue: "It works fine now, you bet! A rewrite is a straight expense; We won't do it just yet. We won't do it just yet." Now when 2000 rolls around It all goes straight to @#%&, For zero's less than ninety-nine, As anyone can tell. As anyone can tell. The mail won't bring your pension check It won't be sent to you When you're no longer sixty-eight, But minus thirty-two. But minus thirty-two. The problems we're about to face Are frightening, for sure. And reading every line of code's The only certain cure. The only certain cure. [key change, big finish] There's not much time, There's too much code. (And Cobol-coders, few) When the century is finished with, We may be finished, too. We may be finished, too. Eight thousand years from now I hope That things weren't left too late, And people aren't then lamenting Four digits for a date. Four digits for a date. -- Helpdesk Phone: (902) 542-HELP (4357) User Support Centre Toll Free: 1-888-609-3330 Vaughan Memorial Library Fax: (902) 585-1764 Acadia University EMail: helpdesk@acadiau.ca Wolfville, NS Canada URL: http://www.acadiau.ca/helpdesk/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 08:09:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22458 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:09:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22453 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:09:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06014; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:09:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35B8A397.6034D5B9@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:09:11 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav" CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Free software and politics (Forwarded from lucio@proxima.alt.za) References: <199807231732.KAA25434@usr04.primenet.com> <35B7BA13.EF8A4ED2@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Coidan Smørgrav wrote: > > Wes Peters writes: > > haven't touched it since I left. This is (amusingly enough) a K5-133 > > running 2.2.5 + a couple of security updates, and hasn't been rebooted > > since they changed its IP address on Jan 20. ;^) > > What, they rebooted the computer just for an IP change? The mind > boggles. They wanted to make sure they'd gotten the configuration files right, so it would come up correctly if it ever needed to reboot again. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 08:38:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA27011 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:38:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26943; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:38:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06050; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:37:53 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <35B8AA50.E49392DE@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:37:52 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary of final changes to FreeBSD 2.2.7 References: <11967.901261832@time.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > As I previously announced, there were some problems encountered with > sysinstall in the 11th hour during our CDROM media testing which I > fixed, rolled an updated boot.flp for, and uploaded to the master FTP > site. > > I also fixed a problem I introduced at the last minute via a fumbled > file copy which caused the XF86Setup utility to be replaced by the > Japanese version (heh). In addition to this, I've just received > updated distribution tarballs from The XFree86 Project which merge all > of the 3.3.2.3 security updates directly into the "standard" tarballs > rather than having an extra update file (X3323upd.tgz) which needed to > be applied by hand. In other words, it's totally plug-and-play now. > Just install XFree86 as you normally would to get the latest security > fixes and the correct setup utility for your language. Since the > X332*upd.tgz files are now obsolete, they have also been removed. > > My apologies to those who were momentarily inconvenienced by this, but > c'mon, this is free software and a 24 hour turnaround time is pretty > good in any part of this industry! :-) 24-hour turnaround is incredible in this industry; most companies won't promise anything in 24 hours, and the few who do mostly promise just to have somebody *look at it* within 24 hours. Three cheers for Jordan, the release team, the core team, and everyone else associated with FreeBSD. I know each and every one of you are concentrating on keeping Doug White's workload as low as possible. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 08:49:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA29974 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:49:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA29926 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:49:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id LAA23906; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:48:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199807241548.LAA23906@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: Summary of final changes to FreeBSD 2.2.7 To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:48:38 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <35B8AA50.E49392DE@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Jul 24, 98 09:37:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > As I previously announced, there were some problems encountered with > > sysinstall in the 11th hour during our CDROM media testing which I > > fixed, rolled an updated boot.flp for, and uploaded to the master FTP > > site. > > > > My apologies to those who were momentarily inconvenienced by this, but > > c'mon, this is free software and a 24 hour turnaround time is pretty > > good in any part of this industry! :-) > > 24-hour turnaround is incredible in this industry; most companies won't > promise anything in 24 hours, and the few who do mostly promise just to > have somebody *look at it* within 24 hours. > > Three cheers for Jordan, the release team, the core team, and everyone > else associated with FreeBSD. I know each and every one of you are > concentrating on keeping Doug White's workload as low as possible. ;^) Damned straight. The 24 hour turnaround is great. 2.2.7 has been working fine on my machine (as has the biweekly 2.2-STABLE versions that I've been building.) Great job by the release engineering team, core team and hopefully we'll get the publicity and recognition we deserve. As soon as the CD hits me here it's update the office web servers (currently running 2.2.5). Also, congrats on an install that's so easy my cats can do it. FreeBSD is by FAR easier to install and configure than Linux, SCO (Unixware and Open Server). (Which Linux versions -- I've used Red Hat and SLS and Slackware Linux). Nice job guys. Bill +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 08:54:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01297 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:54:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (root@time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA01167; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:53:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18227; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:52:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Wes Peters cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary of final changes to FreeBSD 2.2.7 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:37:52 MDT." <35B8AA50.E49392DE@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:52:23 -0700 Message-ID: <18223.901295543@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Three cheers for Jordan, the release team, the core team, and everyone > else associated with FreeBSD. I know each and every one of you are > concentrating on keeping Doug White's workload as low as possible. ;^) Thanks, that's most appreciated. We'll just keep doing our best, even though that may not always be perfect. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 08:57:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02120 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:57:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from joshua.enteract.com (joshua.enteract.com [207.229.129.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02037 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 08:57:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from djhoward@joshua.enteract.com) Received: (qmail 10280 invoked by uid 1032); 24 Jul 1998 15:56:53 -0000 Message-ID: <19980724105653.E8063@enteract.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:56:53 -0500 From: dannyman To: Lanny Baron , Mike Smith , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... Mail-Followup-To: Lanny Baron , Mike Smith , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <199807231953.MAA00678@dingo.cdrom.com> <35B81F0C.C4DC29B6@shaw.wave.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93i In-Reply-To: <35B81F0C.C4DC29B6@shaw.wave.ca>; from Lanny Baron on Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 01:43:40AM -0400 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 01:43:40AM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: [...] > I must reply to this. Do you have any idea how many times i have > complained only to find it was my own fault. How can one say that a > version of a greater value or number is less than its predecessor? I > invite you to my condo to fix my pc and make all work. Don't mean to > badger you, but with the ppl at the helm of FreeBSD, I know that > compedence is a forfront. You get what you pay for. What's your contribution to FreeBSD? Do you expect Bill Gates to come to your house every time you have a rough go at upgrading the OS? You are acting like a petulant, ungrateful child. Please either act responsibly and try to help everyone else figure out what's wrong, or shut up and use something better, or purchase a service contract off someone upon whom you are entitled to heap your abuse. Touching on the issue of competence, I also appeal to you to install and learn to use a copy of ispell. -danny -- // dannyman yori aiokomete || Our Honored Symbol deserves \\/ http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ || an Honorable Retirement (UIUC) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 09:34:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09558 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:34:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (dynamic39.pm04.san-mateo.best.com [205.149.174.231]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA09526; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:33:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA09523; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:33:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19980724093320.A9448@mooseriver.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:33:20 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Wes Peters , jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary of final changes to FreeBSD 2.2.7 Reply-To: jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com References: <11967.901261832@time.cdrom.com> <35B8AA50.E49392DE@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <35B8AA50.E49392DE@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 09:37:52AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 09:37:52AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> >> As I previously announced, there were some problems encountered with >> sysinstall in the 11th hour during our CDROM media testing which I >> fixed, rolled an updated boot.flp for, and uploaded to the master FTP >> site. >> >> I also fixed a problem I introduced at the last minute via a fumbled >> file copy which caused the XF86Setup utility to be replaced by the >> Japanese version (heh). In addition to this, I've just received >> updated distribution tarballs from The XFree86 Project which merge all >> of the 3.3.2.3 security updates directly into the "standard" tarballs >> rather than having an extra update file (X3323upd.tgz) which needed to >> be applied by hand. In other words, it's totally plug-and-play now. >> Just install XFree86 as you normally would to get the latest security >> fixes and the correct setup utility for your language. Since the >> X332*upd.tgz files are now obsolete, they have also been removed. >> >> My apologies to those who were momentarily inconvenienced by this, but >> c'mon, this is free software and a 24 hour turnaround time is pretty >> good in any part of this industry! :-) > >24-hour turnaround is incredible in this industry; most companies won't >promise anything in 24 hours, and the few who do mostly promise just to >have somebody *look at it* within 24 hours. > >Three cheers for Jordan, the release team, the core team, and everyone >else associated with FreeBSD. I know each and every one of you are >concentrating on keeping Doug White's workload as low as possible. ;^) Look at the problem? Hell, you can't get most of this industry to answer the phone in under 24 hours. I have upgraded 3 of my machines to 2.2.7 using cvsup with out any problems. Jordan, the core team, the release team, and the rest of the players have done their usual fine job. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 09:43:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11640 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:43:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from root@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA11619; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 09:43:15 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199807241643.JAA11619@hub.freebsd.org> To: test, chat, chat Subject: asdf Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 10:31:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20747 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA20708 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from (ragnet.demon.co.uk) [158.152.46.40] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0yzlfn-0003cw-00; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 17:30:28 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 0yzba2-0005cu-00; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:43:50 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980723123524.0081c9a0@mx.serv.net> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 07:43:50 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: Tim Gerchmez Subject: RE: My verdict on 2.2.7... Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 23-Jul-98 Tim Gerchmez wrote: > Well, finally got done installing 2.2.7, and unfortunately, *MY* verdict is > in (although admittedly I'm not "the judge"): Don't bother. > > (1) The new sysinstall is so buggy, you'd better keep a can of RAID by your > computer when using it (I'll explain as I go along here)... So you don't keep backups of your data when doing inconsequential things like changing the OS on your machine? > (2) The new update of X-windows is either really buggy, or it was the > sysinstall utility that screwed it up (or a combination of both). Parts of > the PC98 server libraries got mixed in with the regular Xfree86 libraries. > Not all the new X binaries work properly, either. Which binaries? What problems are you seeing? Are they FreeBSD related or XFree86 related? > (3) Package dependencies are all screwed up (half of what I tried said > "Can't find libxx.xx.x), even after installing the dependencies given by > pkg_add -v. Also, **some packages that exist on the site aren't listed in > the sysinstall package installer** (yes, I DID download the new INDEX > file), including my favorite Email reader, xfmail (I had to install it > manually via pkg_add, and grab an older version of XForms from the 2.2.6 > installation). Maybe you are confusing packages and ports? The packages are a subset of the ports because some ports cannot be packaged due to license restrictions, for example, until Netscape changed how Communicator was licenesed you had to download it from their sites. > (4) Certain problems exist with PPP. For one, I noticed that it was slower > than a snail at certain times. Also, when called by sysinstall in getting > the network up, an error message appeared saying something like "Warning: > Config: dns: no such key word. Warning: enable: Failed 1." I'll leave > someone else to figure this out. > (5) When installing X, if you only select certain parts of it, it doesn't > get installed at all. The only way to install it in sysinstall is to > select ALL of it, then go back and deselect what you DON'T want. This is > an obvious bug. Even after doing this, the wrong files were installed (I > got a mix of PC98 and regular server stuff that just didn't work together > correctly. I had to extensively edit XF86Config by hand. I always do anyway. > > I had no problems like these whatsoever when installing 2.2.6. In my > opinion, 2.2.7 is not production quality, and I think this verdict will be > slowly arriving from more people than just me (they may even yank this > version - the sysinstall is just impossibly buggy). They've basically > crossed v2.2.6 with v3.0 here, and the two just don't seem to mix properly >:-(. I'm going back to 2.2.6 until 3.0 is out (OF COURSE I deleted all of > 2.2.6, so it's time to start downloading > again............................................................) Unlikely that any of 3.0 has slipped into stable. > > Anyone with similar experiences to mine with v2.2.7 is invited to Email me > at fewtch@serv.net. > Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 10:41:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23230 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:41:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1657.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23173 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 10:41:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12257; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:40:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19980724134051.A9997@zappo> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:40:51 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Lanny Baron , Mike Smith , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... References: <199807231953.MAA00678@dingo.cdrom.com> <35B81F0C.C4DC29B6@shaw.wave.ca> <19980724105653.E8063@enteract.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19980724105653.E8063@enteract.com>; from dannyman on Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 10:56:53AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 10:56:53AM -0500, dannyman wrote: > On Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 01:43:40AM -0400, Lanny Baron wrote: > [...] > > I must reply to this. Do you have any idea how many times i have > > complained only to find it was my own fault. How can one say that a > > version of a greater value or number is less than its predecessor? I > > invite you to my condo to fix my pc and make all work. Don't mean to > > badger you, but with the ppl at the helm of FreeBSD, I know that > > compedence is a forfront. [...] > You are acting like a petulant, ungrateful child. Please either act Um, Danny, I think that Lanny was actually paying us quite a high compliment. :) To the original poster (Lanny): Thanks. Admittedly, one of the big industry secrets is that we make people believe a problem is their own fault when really, the dirty secret is that it is ours. ;-) Sometimes just reporting which things are difficult to use or make work is useful, even if it is not a bug. OTOH, sometimes you are right and the problem is not that we don't know somethings wrong, but that we're too busy reading complaints to fix it... My rule of thumb is: "If it seems to obvious, it's probably not broken." :) However, all of us have at sometime or another (probably a lot more often than that) cursed something that we thought was a bug only to find-out later it was our fault. Of course, there is an awfully fine line between doing something wrong vs. not using a correct work-around... :) > Touching on the issue of competence, I also appeal to you to install > and learn to use a copy of ispell. I kinda liked it. :) -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 11:15:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA01810 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:15:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6448.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01784 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:15:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA13831; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:15:14 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 14:15:14 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: patl@phoenix.volant.org cc: Tim Gerchmez , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved from -bugs and -newbies] On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 patl@phoenix.volant.org wrote: > So you just threw the former download away? Unless the call was free, > downloading probably cost more than the CD would have. And there are Uh, I don't know where you live, but around here, there wouldn't be any comparison at all. I could probably make the call long-distance and it would still be cheaper to download it. And that's not even taking the exchange rate into account, which is absolutely murder now-a-days. Not to discourage anyone from buying the CD (esp. when all profits go to FreeBSD.ORG! :), but I personally hold no grudges against someone who forgoes buying every new CD and downloads it instead. Heck, even MS provides some of its upgrades (aka. bugfixes) for free download. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 11:42:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05486 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:42:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.volant.org (phoenix.volant.org [205.179.79.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA05480 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:42:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from patl@phoenix.volant.org) From: patl@phoenix.volant.org Received: from asimov.phoenix.volant.org ([205.179.79.65]) by phoenix.volant.org with smtp (Exim 1.92 #8) id 0yzmn7-0005I6-00; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:42:05 -0700 Received: from localhost by asimov.phoenix.volant.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA13521; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:42:02 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 11:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: patl@phoenix.volant.org Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... To: ac199@hwcn.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > So you just threw the former download away? Unless the call was free, > > downloading probably cost more than the CD would have. And there are > > Uh, I don't know where you live, but around here, there wouldn't > be any comparison at all. I could probably make the call > long-distance and it would still be cheaper to download it. And > that's not even taking the exchange rate into account, which is > absolutely murder now-a-days. Ok, let's take long distance. Long distance carriers are currently touting their 'ten cents a minute' plans. So a 20 hour download would cost $120. Local rates for a business line run around five cents a minute, which would cut it to $60. Local residential rates are a bit more complex; but could drop it under the CD price. (Going to a 4 CD set kicked the price up enough to make the equation more reasonable.) If you are doing an FTP install, there is also the risk that there will be some problem that will require starting over; which raises the time and total communications charges. > Not to discourage anyone from buying the CD (esp. when all > profits go to FreeBSD.ORG! :), but I personally hold no grudges > against someone who forgoes buying every new CD and downloads it > instead. Nor do I. In fact, I've downloaded a few releases myself. I was attempting to point out that with a slow line, it may actually be more economical to buy the CD. And you get the various other advantages of having a relatively fast, non- volatile, read-only distribution which includes distfiles for most of the ports, a live filesystem, etc. And if your time is valuable, you need to figure that into the equation. I.e., Exactly how much of your personal time would the CD need to save to pay for itself. (Or for the additional cost over a download.) One more factor on CD-vs-download. When a CD-release is being prepaired, it is fairly likely that the initial release made available for FTP will need to be re-rolled at least once before the final CD master is cut. What happens if the re-rolled version replaces the previous one while you are in the middle of a download install? (Usually, not much. But the potential is there...) > Heck, even MS provides some of its upgrades (aka. > bugfixes) for free download. Unless they've changed in the last year or so, that's only for patches. You can't download an entire upgrade release of the OS. To get the intermediate releases which correspond to FreeBSD's FTP-able releases, you must join the MSDN, which is a bit pricey for a personal budget... -Pat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 12:36:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14566 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:36:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp6448.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.208.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14560 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 12:36:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA16101; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:36:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:36:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: patl@phoenix.volant.org cc: ac199@hwcn.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 patl@phoenix.volant.org wrote: > Ok, let's take long distance. Long distance carriers are currently > touting their 'ten cents a minute' plans. So a 20 hour download > would cost $120. Local rates for a business line run around five > cents a minute, which would cut it to $60. Local residential rates > are a bit more complex; but could drop it under the CD price. (Going > to a 4 CD set kicked the price up enough to make the equation more > reasonable.) You actually want to argue this!? Okay... Deal with local calls first. Local rates for a business is: zero cents @ minute. They only need to cover the monthly fee and their Internet access. 'net costs can vary, but I'll take what I pay: $25 for 200hours (if you check my ISP's homepage it'll say 150hours, but it's wrong :). I'll discount the monthly line fee, since that's a prereq for owning a business in the first place. That's 12cents an hour. That means a business will pay something on the order of $2.40 cents to download FreeBSD. The case for a non-business (in this case, me) works out to be about the same. Okay, what about the long-distance case? Well, we'll keep the same ISP. Nevermind that this particular ISP happens to have connection points in most major centres, we'll still make the ld call home. My reference to long-distance was perhaps unfair. Because someone in this house works for Bell (the phone company), our phone bill gets chopped in half. Since the exchange rate makes the CDs $60 (non-subscription), it'll be close. However, if you can find a bulk reseller with lines that are high-quality enough to use a modem over, you'll be able to beat the CD price no problem, I believe. Of course, this is totally unreal. Internet access is available within the local calling area for almost everyone now-a-days (still keeping the same caveat about "Uh, I don't know where you live, but..." :). There is simply no comparison at all for the local case. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 13:22:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22158 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:22:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.volant.org (phoenix.volant.org [205.179.79.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22145 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from patl@phoenix.volant.org) From: patl@phoenix.volant.org Received: from asimov.phoenix.volant.org ([205.179.79.65]) by phoenix.volant.org with smtp (Exim 1.92 #8) id 0yzoME-00067u-00; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:22:26 -0700 Received: from localhost by asimov.phoenix.volant.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA13563; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:22:23 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 13:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: patl@phoenix.volant.org Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... To: ac199@hwcn.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 patl@phoenix.volant.org wrote: > > > Ok, let's take long distance. Long distance carriers are currently > > touting their 'ten cents a minute' plans. So a 20 hour download > > would cost $120. Local rates for a business line run around five > > cents a minute, which would cut it to $60. Local residential rates > > are a bit more complex; but could drop it under the CD price. (Going > > to a 4 CD set kicked the price up enough to make the equation more > > reasonable.) > > You actually want to argue this!? No, I hadn't intended to. I was just responding to a question. It certainly wasn't intended to be argumentative. > Local rates for a business is: zero cents @ minute. Where do you live? Who's the local phone company? Pac Bell charges $.05/minute for local calls from a business line. They don't offer businesses any equivalent to the residential 'unlimited local calls' plan. (Or if they do, it's a new addition in the last couple of years.) I suspect that most RBOCs are the same. Outside the US, I wouldn't even care to speculate. Since the discussion started with 'Unless the call was free', I felt justified in restricting the response to long-distance and local toll calls. (Although, I'll admit that I should have phrased it as 'local toll calls' in my previous message.) > They only > need to cover the monthly fee and their Internet access. 'net > costs can vary, but I'll take what I pay: $25 for 200hours (if > you check my ISP's homepage it'll say 150hours, but it's wrong > :). I'll discount the monthly line fee, since that's a prereq > for owning a business in the first place. > > That's 12cents an hour. That means a business will pay something > on the order of $2.40 cents to download FreeBSD. Err. $25/200hrs == $2.50/20hrs. Exactly. No need to approximate. (Remember, the original message stipulated 20 hours for the download.) Assuming that you use up your entire time allotment for the month. If that download was the only logon for the month, it cost $25. If you go over the 200 hours, you need to amortize the total expense over the total number of hours used. It looks to me like you've just argued that what I called a 'free call' actually costs you $2.50... (I didn't bother to count ISP charges at all on the theory that it wasn't worth the trouble.) > The case for a non-business (in this case, me) works out to be > about the same. > > Okay, what about the long-distance case? > > Well, we'll keep the same ISP. Nevermind that this particular > ISP happens to have connection points in most major centres, > we'll still make the ld call home. > > My reference to long-distance was perhaps unfair. Because > someone in this house works for Bell (the phone company), our > phone bill gets chopped in half. Since the exchange rate makes > the CDs $60 (non-subscription), it'll be close. That is, indeed, an unfair advantage. There are various other plans available from a variety of long distance carriers that could net a user rates in the three-to-five cents a minute range. But most of us won't qualify for them. I chose ten cents because that seemed to be the lowest rate readily available to the average consumer. > However, if you can find a bulk reseller with lines that are > high-quality enough to use a modem over, you'll be able to beat > the CD price no problem, I believe. Yep, you probably can. But how much work will you have to put in, and what are the trade-offs? (Don't bother answering, it was a rhetorical question.) I was aiming at the general populace. People who are happy with their current phone company; or who want to stick with one of the big well known names. Remember, I wasn't trying to claim that it is -always- cheaper to buy the CD, only that it often can be; especially if you are stuck with a slow modem. > Of course, this is totally unreal. Internet access is available > within the local calling area for almost everyone now-a-days > (still keeping the same caveat about "Uh, I don't know where you > live, but..." :). There is simply no comparison at all for the > local case. Good thing you kept the 'almost'. Personally, I have absolutely no difficulty at all. I live in the heart of Silicon Valley, and have a Frame Relay line running into my home office. HOWEVER, my sister, living in one of the ten largest cities in New Mexico(*), has to make a long distance call to get to an ISP. It costs her 25 cents a minute. -Pat (*)Ok, I'm not actually sure where it ranks in the listings any more. But over half of the population of New Mexico is in the greater Albuquerque area. Add Santa Fe and Las Cruces, and there isn't much left. So it's a pretty safe bet that Silver City is still in the top 10. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 15:28:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12173 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:28:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from localhost.my.domain (ppp1716.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12142 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:28:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by localhost.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA16314; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:27:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ac199@hwcn.org) X-Authentication-Warning: localhost.my.domain: tim owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:27:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Tim Vanderhoek X-Sender: tim@localhost Reply-To: ac199@hwcn.org To: patl@phoenix.volant.org cc: ac199@hwcn.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 24 Jul 1998 patl@phoenix.volant.org wrote: > > Local rates for a business is: zero cents @ minute. > > Where do you live? Who's the local phone company? Pac Bell [...] > Outside the US, I wouldn't even care to speculate. Bingo! > > That's 12cents an hour. That means a business will pay something > > on the order of $2.40 cents to download FreeBSD. > > Err. $25/200hrs == $2.50/20hrs. Exactly. No need to approximate. > (Remember, the original message stipulated 20 hours for the download.) Of course, I'm not very likely to need all 20h of download, either. > Assuming that you use up your entire time allotment for the month. > If that download was the only logon for the month, it cost $25. > If you go over the 200 hours, you need to amortize the total expense > over the total number of hours used. That really depends on your accounting practices. In my case the 20hours used to download everything would go to waste (since the (primary) purpose of my connection is not to download FreeBSD, and we come nowhere near using all 200h (even after using 20h to download data)). [Of course, this was in the context of a business] If that download was the only logon for the month, you should not have gone with the 200h Internet package and should have chosen another one instead. It's not downloading FreeBSD that cost $25 in that case, but the blunder you made calculating how much 'net time you needed that cost $25. > That is, indeed, an unfair advantage. There are various other > plans available from a variety of long distance carriers that > could net a user rates in the three-to-five cents a minute range. > But most of us won't qualify for them. I chose ten cents because > that seemed to be the lowest rate readily available to the average > consumer. I think one company here (Sprint?) is offering something (very) significantly lower, provided you're willing to restrict your calls to weekends (which I'd be more than happy to do in exchange for saving $60). [I don't pay particularly close attention to the various offers, since switching isn't an option for the same reason we get half off all our phone bills :-] > Yep, you probably can. But how much work will you have to put in, > and what are the trade-offs? (Don't bother answering, it was > a rhetorical question.) I was aiming at the general populace. > People who are happy with their current phone company; or who > want to stick with one of the big well known names. If they stay with a big well-known name when that costs them a hefty premium, spending $40-$60 (less on a subscript) every three months for a CD is probably not a big deal, anyways. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 15:35:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13113 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:35:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (ppp1000.lariat.org@[206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13089; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 15:34:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA27752; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:34:29 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199807242234.QAA27752@lariat.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:34:18 -0600 To: Wes Peters , jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Summary of final changes to FreeBSD 2.2.7 In-Reply-To: <35B8AA50.E49392DE@softweyr.com> References: <11967.901261832@time.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Agree wholeheartedly; this shows both dedication and professionalism on the part of Jordan and the rest of the team. Of course, since I'm upgrading production servers, what I'm REALLY looking for is a "golden" release -- that is, a version that for some reason (fate, luck, magic, sweat) came out more trouble-free and stable than most after the last minute patches were applied. I'm hoping 2.2.7 will be it, as it is unclear whether there will be a 2.2.8 and I can't afford to gamble on -current on these machines. --Brett At 09:37 AM 7/24/98 -0600, you wrote: >Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> >> As I previously announced, there were some problems encountered with >> sysinstall in the 11th hour during our CDROM media testing which I >> fixed, rolled an updated boot.flp for, and uploaded to the master FTP >> site. >> >> I also fixed a problem I introduced at the last minute via a fumbled >> file copy which caused the XF86Setup utility to be replaced by the >> Japanese version (heh). In addition to this, I've just received >> updated distribution tarballs from The XFree86 Project which merge all >> of the 3.3.2.3 security updates directly into the "standard" tarballs >> rather than having an extra update file (X3323upd.tgz) which needed to >> be applied by hand. In other words, it's totally plug-and-play now. >> Just install XFree86 as you normally would to get the latest security >> fixes and the correct setup utility for your language. Since the >> X332*upd.tgz files are now obsolete, they have also been removed. >> >> My apologies to those who were momentarily inconvenienced by this, but >> c'mon, this is free software and a 24 hour turnaround time is pretty >> good in any part of this industry! :-) > >24-hour turnaround is incredible in this industry; most companies won't >promise anything in 24 hours, and the few who do mostly promise just to >have somebody *look at it* within 24 hours. > >Three cheers for Jordan, the release team, the core team, and everyone >else associated with FreeBSD. I know each and every one of you are >concentrating on keeping Doug White's workload as low as possible. ;^) > >-- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > >Wes Peters Softweyr LLC >http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 16:09:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA20022 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.volant.org (phoenix.volant.org [205.179.79.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA19961 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:08:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from patl@phoenix.volant.org) From: patl@phoenix.volant.org Received: from asimov.phoenix.volant.org ([205.179.79.65]) by phoenix.volant.org with smtp (Exim 1.92 #8) id 0yzqwk-0007UT-00; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:08:18 -0700 Received: from localhost by asimov.phoenix.volant.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA13612; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:08:15 -0700 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 1998 16:08:15 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: patl@phoenix.volant.org Subject: Re: My verdict on 2.2.7... To: ac199@hwcn.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Of course, I'm not very likely to need all 20h of download, > either. That was the actual time as reported in the original message. It obviously depends upon your modem speed, upstream congestion, choice of installation set, etc. > > Assuming that you use up your entire time allotment for the month. > > If that download was the only logon for the month, it cost $25. > > If you go over the 200 hours, you need to amortize the total expense > > over the total number of hours used. > > That really depends on your accounting practices. In my case the > 20hours used to download everything would go to waste (since the > (primary) purpose of my connection is not to download FreeBSD, > and we come nowhere near using all 200h (even after using 20h to > download data)). All of the computations we've been doing depend somewhat on your accounting practices. > [Of course, this was in the context of a business] In the context of personal finances, it is still very useful to keep at least informal accounting. Your budget is likely to be tighter, and it helps you recognize when you might have been engaging in false economies. (Like downloading when it would have been cheaper to buy a CD. Or vice-versa.) > ... > > > Yep, you probably can. But how much work will you have to put in, > > and what are the trade-offs? (Don't bother answering, it was > > a rhetorical question.) I was aiming at the general populace. > > People who are happy with their current phone company; or who > > want to stick with one of the big well known names. > > If they stay with a big well-known name when that costs them a > hefty premium, spending $40-$60 (less on a subscript) every three > months for a CD is probably not a big deal, anyways. Some people are worried about not getting the desired level or quality of service from a company they've never heard of. Inertia and brand-loyalty are major factors in consumer marketing. Also, it isn't always easy to get a real apples-to-apples comparison of the different plans offered by the different companies. What would be most helpful would be if your bill came with a list of comparative prices for the same calls under various other plans from a variety of companies. Then you could establish a long-term trend based on your actual calling patterns. -Pat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 18:50:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19193 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:50:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA19149; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 18:49:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA07471; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:18:42 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA17721; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:18:38 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19980725111837.F716@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 11:18:37 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Wes Peters , jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary of final changes to FreeBSD 2.2.7 References: <11967.901261832@time.cdrom.com> <35B8AA50.E49392DE@softweyr.com> <199807242234.QAA27752@lariat.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199807242234.QAA27752@lariat.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Jul 24, 1998 at 04:34:18PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 24 July 1998 at 16:34:18 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:37 AM 7/24/98 -0600, you wrote: > >> Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>> >>> As I previously announced, there were some problems encountered with >>> sysinstall in the 11th hour during our CDROM media testing which I >>> fixed, rolled an updated boot.flp for, and uploaded to the master FTP >>> site. >>> >>> I also fixed a problem I introduced at the last minute via a fumbled >>> file copy which caused the XF86Setup utility to be replaced by the >>> Japanese version (heh). In addition to this, I've just received >>> updated distribution tarballs from The XFree86 Project which merge all >>> of the 3.3.2.3 security updates directly into the "standard" tarballs >>> rather than having an extra update file (X3323upd.tgz) which needed to >>> be applied by hand. In other words, it's totally plug-and-play now. >>> Just install XFree86 as you normally would to get the latest security >>> fixes and the correct setup utility for your language. Since the >>> X332*upd.tgz files are now obsolete, they have also been removed. >>> >>> My apologies to those who were momentarily inconvenienced by this, but >>> c'mon, this is free software and a 24 hour turnaround time is pretty >>> good in any part of this industry! :-) >> >> 24-hour turnaround is incredible in this industry; most companies won't >> promise anything in 24 hours, and the few who do mostly promise just to >> have somebody *look at it* within 24 hours. >> >> Three cheers for Jordan, the release team, the core team, and everyone >> else associated with FreeBSD. I know each and every one of you are >> concentrating on keeping Doug White's workload as low as possible. ;^) > > Agree wholeheartedly; this shows both dedication and professionalism > on the part of Jordan and the rest of the team. > > Of course, since I'm upgrading production servers, what I'm REALLY > looking for is a "golden" release -- that is, a version that for > some reason (fate, luck, magic, sweat) came out more trouble-free > and stable than most after the last minute patches were applied. > I'm hoping 2.2.7 will be it, as it is unclear whether there will > be a 2.2.8 and I can't afford to gamble on -current on these > machines. While I agree with this sentiment, I think we should bear in mind that it could have been better. This time, for some reason, there were a lot of dissenting voices in the mailing lists. Didn't we use to do a Beta release? If Jordan had released 2.2.7 beta on Monday (or even the Wednesday before) and let people download it, within a week the rough edges would have been knocked off, there would have been less stress, and less idiots sending out messages saying that FreeBSD 2.2.7 was a load of shit. Greg -- See complete headers for address and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jul 24 19:41:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA24830 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:41:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgw01.execpc.com (mailgw01.execpc.com [169.207.2.78]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA24806; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 19:41:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fpawlak@execpc.com) Received: from darkstar.connect.com (narn-1-158.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.136.32]) by mailgw01.execpc.com (8.9.0) id VAA22881; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:41:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from fpawlak@localhost) by darkstar.connect.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id VAA00738; Fri, 24 Jul 1998 21:41:01 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frank Pawlak" Message-Id: <980725024100.ZM737@darkstar.connect.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 02:41:00 +0000 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey "Re: Summary of final changes to FreeBSD 2.2.7" (Jul 25, 11:18am) References: <11967.901261832@time.cdrom.com> <35B8AA50.E49392DE@softweyr.com> <199807242234.QAA27752@lariat.lariat.org> <19980725111837.F716@freebie.lemis.com> X-Mailer: Z-Mail (5.0.0 30July97) To: Greg Lehey , Brett Glass , Wes Peters , jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Summary of final changes to FreeBSD 2.2.7 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Jul 25, 11:18am, Greg Lehey wrote: > Subject: Re: Summary of final changes to FreeBSD 2.2.7 > On Friday, 24 July 1998 at 16:34:18 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 09:37 AM 7/24/98 -0600, you wrote: > > > >> Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >>> > >>> As I previously announced, there were some problems encountered with > >>> sysinstall in the 11th hour during our CDROM media testing which I > >>> fixed, rolled an updated boot.flp for, and uploaded to the master FTP > >>> site. > >>> > >>> I also fixed a problem I introduced at the last minute via a fumbled > >>> file copy which caused the XF86Setup utility to be replaced by the > >>> Japanese version (heh). In addition to this, I've just received > >>> updated distribution tarballs from The XFree86 Project which merge all > >>> of the 3.3.2.3 security updates directly into the "standard" tarballs > >>> rather than having an extra update file (X3323upd.tgz) which needed to > >>> be applied by hand. In other words, it's totally plug-and-play now. > >>> Just install XFree86 as you normally would to get the latest security > >>> fixes and the correct setup utility for your language. Since the > >>> X332*upd.tgz files are now obsolete, they have also been removed. > >>> > >>> My apologies to those who were momentarily inconvenienced by this, but > >>> c'mon, this is free software and a 24 hour turnaround time is pretty > >>> good in any part of this industry! :-) > >> > >> 24-hour turnaround is incredible in this industry; most companies won't > >> promise anything in 24 hours, and the few who do mostly promise just to > >> have somebody *look at it* within 24 hours. > >> > >> Three cheers for Jordan, the release team, the core team, and everyone > >> else associated with FreeBSD. I know each and every one of you are > >> concentrating on keeping Doug White's workload as low as possible. ;^) > > > > Agree wholeheartedly; this shows both dedication and professionalism > > on the part of Jordan and the rest of the team. > > > > Of course, since I'm upgrading production servers, what I'm REALLY > > looking for is a "golden" release -- that is, a version that for > > some reason (fate, luck, magic, sweat) came out more trouble-free > > and stable than most after the last minute patches were applied. > > I'm hoping 2.2.7 will be it, as it is unclear whether there will > > be a 2.2.8 and I can't afford to gamble on -current on these > > machines. While agreeing with most of the above, my vote must be with Greg. We did a beta release with 2.2.6, and the release was a very solid one. A side benefit was the silence of the idiots. Frank > > While I agree with this sentiment, I think we should bear in mind that > it could have been better. This time, for some reason, there were a > lot of dissenting voices in the mailing lists. Didn't we use to do a > Beta release? If Jordan had released 2.2.7 beta on Monday (or even > the Wednesday before) and let people download it, within a week the > rough edges would have been knocked off, there would have been less > stress, and less idiots sending out messages saying that FreeBSD 2.2.7 > was a load of shit. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >-- End of excerpt from Greg Lehey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jul 25 16:57:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16727 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:57:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16721 for ; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 16:57:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca) Received: (from taob@localhost) by tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01152; Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:56:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 1998 19:56:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao X-Sender: taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca To: David Greenman cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: another wcarchive In-Reply-To: <199807231208.FAA12988@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, David Greenman wrote: > > Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total > Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files > -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ > /FreeBSD 93,109M 93,109M 0M 444,258 444,258 0 24.03 44.25 > /linux 68,450M 68,450M 0M 283,181 283,181 0 17.67 28.21 Release of FreeBSD 2.2.7, I take it? -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message