From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 00:08:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA25637 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 00:08:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA25621 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 00:08:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08352; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 01:07:23 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36171EAB.ACBB0D9B@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 01:07:23 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: Terry Lambert , Daniel Berlin , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: OED (was: JOBOP RELIABILITY ENGINEER) References: <199810040233.TAA20198@usr06.primenet.com> <19981004122813.O10081@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > Moved to -chat > > On Sunday, 4 October 1998 at 2:33:39 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > >> If they can't spell development right (It's not "developement"), they have > >> larger problems. > > > > That's how I spell it, frequently. Yes, I know it's not the > > American spelling, but I was corrupted by an unabridged OED at > > an early age... > > Was that a corrupted unabridged OED? No, Terry was adulterated by a corrupted OED. I find myself making the same spelling error occasionally. Must have been something in the water (or the dictionary) at Weber State, huh? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 00:14:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA26269 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 00:14:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA26203 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 00:13:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA08370; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 01:13:12 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36172008.501DE41E@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 01:13:12 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: spork , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Overhead Displays Was: Slowly going blind ;-) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells wrote: > > On Fri, 2 Oct 1998, spork wrote: > > >Is it just me, or is the LCD screen easiest to look at for long stretches? > > Has anyone done any extensive computing on a projected LCD display? (The > type that are commonly reserved for presentations.) > > I am wondering if that was an enjoyable experience. It seems cool. It > would also seem to have some ergonomic benefit. I've worked in an environment that made extensive use of rear- projection large-screen displays connected to SGI workstations. They were impressive in size, but not in video features. We had a little control box that would allow us to switch any video source, including the SGIs, between one of four video monitors, the large screens, or the large screens in quarter-screen mode. The bad part was the video control box, which was designed for video signals from half-inch tape drives (Beta). The entire video system ran at 30 Hz, including our computer displays. They looked quite acceptable for our uses, but you wouldn't want to read code on them. And size? Our small "briefing rooms" used 25" video monitors and 45" rear-projection displays, the "auditorium" used 37" video monitors and 108" rear-projection displays. 'dogfight' looked great on those from the 14th row of seats, where the keyboard/mouses for the workstations were located. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 08:51:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21126 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 08:51:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21120; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 08:51:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199810041551.IAA21120@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-Reply-To: from "James D. Butt" at "Oct 3, 98 01:04:36 pm" To: jbutt@mwci.net (James D. Butt) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 08:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James D. Butt wrote: > > To add to this thread I just had someone send me this.. > > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm > > I am sorry if this has been posted or anything like that.. > > This above document makes me sick and makes me not ever want to run any > microsoft software... > > If anything things like this should be a clue to anyone that microsoft > stuff is bad... > > As far as I am concerned anyone staying with the NT platform after reading much better: take a look at this link: http://www.microsoft.com/misc/backstage/solutions.htm they claim "More than 6 Gigabytes (GB) of successful downloads a day" Walnut Creek is doing only 400GB per day from a single server. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 11:18:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06119 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:18:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06110 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:18:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hel.ifi.uio.no (2602@hel.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.91]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id UAA27119; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:18:21 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hel.ifi.uio.no ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:18:20 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "James D. Butt" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement References: Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 04 Oct 1998 20:18:19 +0200 In-Reply-To: "James D. Butt"'s message of "Sat, 3 Oct 1998 13:04:36 -0500 (CDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 9 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 20.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id LAA06113 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "James D. Butt" writes: > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm Yuck. Who are these Weak & Wanker people anyway? This is so warm-n-fuzzy-feel-good I might just puke. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 11:50:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA10221 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:50:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iplink.net (iplink.net [192.139.81.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA10209 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 11:50:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alexp@iplink.net) Received: from alexp@localhost by caesar.iplink.net id <26990-6657>; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:40:05 -0400 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:40:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: "Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=" cc: "James D. Butt" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 4 Oct 1998, Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= wrote: > "James D. Butt" writes: > > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm > > Yuck. Who are these Weak & Wanker people anyway? This is so > warm-n-fuzzy-feel-good I might just puke. What really bugs the hell out of me is Microsoft's attitude that they invented load balancing solutions using a single IP. I think someone has to wake them up to the realities of NAT, and products such as Cisco's LocalDirector (which btw can do the job96237589235x better than any NT server ever could). Oh and speaking of 100% availability, none of my machines get unscheduled downtime.. hmmm.. I wonder why Microsoft's do. That's my $0.02 Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 12:32:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA15017 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:32:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA15003 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:31:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24327; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:31:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:31:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Chris Coleman cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Bon the Brett Glass front .. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bumping this over to -chat because of the time restriction involved... On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Chris Coleman wrote: > Its probably not archived on the Net anywhere is it.... It would be cool > to include a link to it in my next RQN. Brett was on 9/29/1998. Looks like these live for the previous week only, so get 'em while you still can: 28kbit realvideo: http://play.rbn.com/?zdtv/zdtv/demand/tue_silspin20.rm 56kbit realvideo: http://play.rbn.com/?zdtv/zdtv/demand/tue_silspin45.rm These are recordings of the *entire* half-hour or so, including the commercials! :-( > > -Chris > > On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Doug White wrote: > > > I was going to mention this on -chat... > > > > Brett's been going to bat for FreeBSD in the popular press. He was on > > ZDTV (Ziff-Davis TV, we get it through DirecTV/satellite) a couple of > > nights ago extoling the merits of free UNIX with Dvorak and friends. > > Pretty cool :) > > > > Doug White > > Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve > > http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | www.freebsd.org > > > > > Doug White Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 12:48:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA16871 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:48:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16864 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:48:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05839; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:48:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd005808; Sun Oct 4 12:47:55 1998 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08953; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 12:47:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199810041947.MAA08953@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: OED (was: JOBOP RELIABILITY ENGINEER) To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:47:49 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com, tlambert@primenet.com, dberlin@danberlin.resnet.rochester.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36171EAB.ACBB0D9B@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Oct 4, 98 01:07:23 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > That's how I spell it, frequently. Yes, I know it's not the > > > American spelling, but I was corrupted by an unabridged OED at > > > an early age... > > > > Was that a corrupted unabridged OED? > > No, Terry was adulterated by a corrupted OED. > > I find myself making the same spelling error occasionally. Must have > been something in the water (or the dictionary) at Weber State, huh? I read the OED back in 4th grade, at "Valley Elemetary School". This was before puberty, when my memory was fully eidetic, instead of selectively eidetic. I suppose if I swallowed a bunch of Piracetim and read a Webster's, I could "fix" my spelling, but it's really not worth the nosebleeds. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 13:18:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20559 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 13:18:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch ([62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA20544 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 13:18:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 16798 invoked from network); 4 Oct 1998 20:18:27 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.140.1) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 4 Oct 1998 20:18:27 -0000 Message-ID: <3617D7E5.E0573961@pipeline.ch> Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 22:17:41 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Perel CC: "Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav" , "James D. Butt" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alex Perel wrote: > > On 4 Oct 1998, Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= wrote: > > > "James D. Butt" writes: > > > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm > > > > Yuck. Who are these Weak & Wanker people anyway? This is so > > warm-n-fuzzy-feel-good I might just puke. > > What really bugs the hell out of me is Microsoft's attitude that > they invented load balancing solutions using a single IP. I think someone > has to wake them up to the realities of NAT, and products such as Cisco's > LocalDirector (which btw can do the job96237589235x better than any NT > server ever could). > > Oh and speaking of 100% availability, none of my machines get > unscheduled downtime.. hmmm.. I wonder why Microsoft's do. Did someone ever saw www.netscape.com not responding? (except network failures of course) They don't run NT, they run UNIX (I think SGI IRIX). -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 14:15:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29288 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:15:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch ([62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA29259 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 26299 invoked from network); 4 Oct 1998 21:15:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.140.1) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 4 Oct 1998 21:15:42 -0000 Message-ID: <3617E550.7D385B55@pipeline.ch> Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 23:14:56 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alex Perel CC: "Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav" , "James D. Butt" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alex Perel wrote: > > On 4 Oct 1998, Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= wrote: > > > "James D. Butt" writes: > > > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm > > > > Yuck. Who are these Weak & Wanker people anyway? This is so > > warm-n-fuzzy-feel-good I might just puke. > > What really bugs the hell out of me is Microsoft's attitude that > they invented load balancing solutions using a single IP. I think someone > has to wake them up to the realities of NAT, and products such as Cisco's > LocalDirector (which btw can do the job96237589235x better than any NT > server ever could). Sigle IP? It looks like they have failed... nothing new... % nslookup www.microsoft.com Server: barbarella.pipeline.ch Address: 195.134.128.59 Non-authoritative answer: Name: www.microsoft.com Addresses: 207.46.130.149, 207.46.130.150, 207.46.131.13, 207.46.131.15 207.46.131.16, 207.46.131.135, 207.46.131.137, 207.46.130.14, 207.46.130.15 207.46.130.138, 207.46.130.139 > Oh and speaking of 100% availability, none of my machines get > unscheduled downtime.. hmmm.. I wonder why Microsoft's do. They run bugs... haha... -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 15:53:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13206 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:53:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iplink.net (iplink.net [192.139.81.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13191 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:53:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alexp@iplink.net) Received: from alexp@localhost by caesar.iplink.net id <26941-6657>; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:43:09 -0400 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:43:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Andre Oppermann cc: "Dag-Erling C. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=" , "James D. Butt" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-Reply-To: <3617E550.7D385B55@pipeline.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Andre Oppermann wrote: > Alex Perel wrote: > > > > On 4 Oct 1998, Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= wrote: > > > > > "James D. Butt" writes: > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm > > > > > > Yuck. Who are these Weak & Wanker people anyway? This is so > > > warm-n-fuzzy-feel-good I might just puke. > > > > What really bugs the hell out of me is Microsoft's attitude that > > they invented load balancing solutions using a single IP. I think someone > > has to wake them up to the realities of NAT, and products such as Cisco's > > LocalDirector (which btw can do the job96237589235x better than any NT > > server ever could). > > Sigle IP? It looks like they have failed... nothing new... > > Non-authoritative answer: > Name: www.microsoft.com > Addresses: 207.46.130.149, 207.46.130.150, 207.46.131.13, 207.46.131.15 > 207.46.131.16, 207.46.131.135, 207.46.131.137, > 207.46.130.14, > 207.46.130.15 207.46.130.138, 207.46.130.139 Well that is a Single IP with a captial S, as in SUCKERS. Somehow I am not surprised that NT could not handle the intricacies of load balancing. I guess they had to put their claim that 'they could revert to the old system within an hour' to the text. I bet it took them a day too :) > > Oh and speaking of 100% availability, none of my machines get > > unscheduled downtime.. hmmm.. I wonder why Microsoft's do. > > They run bugs... haha... Microsoft Cockroach NT Server 4.0: Guaranteed to survive a nuclear war. Now available with load balancing. Just PLEASE keep the RAID cans away... Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 15:58:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13702 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:58:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iplink.net (iplink.net [192.139.81.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13656 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:57:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alexp@iplink.net) Received: from alexp@localhost by caesar.iplink.net id <26936-11558>; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:47:34 -0400 Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 19:47:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Andre Oppermann cc: "Dag-Erling C. =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?=" , "James D. Butt" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-Reply-To: <3617D7E5.E0573961@pipeline.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Alex Perel wrote: > > > > On 4 Oct 1998, Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= wrote: > > > > > "James D. Butt" writes: > > > > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm > > > > > > Yuck. Who are these Weak & Wanker people anyway? This is so > > > warm-n-fuzzy-feel-good I might just puke. > > > > What really bugs the hell out of me is Microsoft's attitude that > > they invented load balancing solutions using a single IP. I think someone > > has to wake them up to the realities of NAT, and products such as Cisco's > > LocalDirector (which btw can do the job96237589235x better than any NT > > server ever could). > > > > Oh and speaking of 100% availability, none of my machines get > > unscheduled downtime.. hmmm.. I wonder why Microsoft's do. > > Did someone ever saw www.netscape.com not responding? (except network > failures of course) > They don't run NT, they run UNIX (I think SGI IRIX). And I bet if they ran NT MS would find a way to sneak in ads for Internet Exploder on their site. That and load balancing solutions. Yup yup, Single IP Load Balancing Solutions from the people who brought you Minesweeper for Windows 3.1. I have GOT to run THAT.. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 16:56:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA21210 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 16:56:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA21174; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 16:56:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA16186; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:25:53 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA26106; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:25:37 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981005092536.K2545@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:25:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD Chat Cc: dg@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: To comemorate ftp.cdrom.com's resurrection References: <199810041103.EAA29623@wcarchive.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199810041103.EAA29623@wcarchive.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sun, Oct 04, 1998 at 04:03:59AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moved to -chat) On Sunday, 4 October 1998 at 4:03:59 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > (and these new Mylex RAID arrays look like it was well-worth the downtime) > I've rolled and uploaded a new 3.0 BETA snapshot, How about a snapshot of the new ftp.cdrom.com? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 17:14:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23655 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 17:14:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA23625 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 17:14:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from perry@zso.dec.com) Received: from rust.zso.dec.com (rust.zso.dec.com [16.64.0.1]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0g) with SMTP id UAA10415 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 20:13:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.zso.dec.com by rust.zso.dec.com (5.65/DECwest-CLUSTRIX-mwd-12Dec94) id AA09271; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 17:13:58 -0700 From: perry@zso.dec.com (Reginald Perry) To: Subject: RE: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 17:11:04 -0700 Message-Id: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F2FA@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD06BA4E@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thats not enough addresses. They supposedly have over 40 servers. So they still could be using this hiding mechanism. But notice that it clearly takes so much of a hit on an individual set of servers that they have to group them in such a way as to round-robin through 11 IP addresses. :-) -Reggie -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Andre Oppermann Sent: Sunday, October 04, 1998 2:15 PM To: Alex Perel Cc: Dag-Erling C. Smxrgrav; James D. Butt; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement Alex Perel wrote: > > On 4 Oct 1998, Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= wrote: > > > "James D. Butt" writes: > > > http://www.microsoft.com/backstage/column_T2_1.htm > > > > Yuck. Who are these Weak & Wanker people anyway? This is so > > warm-n-fuzzy-feel-good I might just puke. > > What really bugs the hell out of me is Microsoft's attitude that > they invented load balancing solutions using a single IP. I think someone > has to wake them up to the realities of NAT, and products such as Cisco's > LocalDirector (which btw can do the job96237589235x better than any NT > server ever could). Sigle IP? It looks like they have failed... nothing new... % nslookup www.microsoft.com Server: barbarella.pipeline.ch Address: 195.134.128.59 Non-authoritative answer: Name: www.microsoft.com Addresses: 207.46.130.149, 207.46.130.150, 207.46.131.13, 207.46.131.15 207.46.131.16, 207.46.131.135, 207.46.131.137, 207.46.130.14, 207.46.130.15 207.46.130.138, 207.46.130.139 > Oh and speaking of 100% availability, none of my machines get > unscheduled downtime.. hmmm.. I wonder why Microsoft's do. They run bugs... haha... -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 4 21:02:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA25062 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:02:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24922 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:01:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA05982; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 21:00:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810050400.VAA05982@implode.root.com> To: Greg Lehey cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD Chat , tech@cdrom.com Subject: Re: To comemorate ftp.cdrom.com's resurrection In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 09:25:36 +0930." <19981005092536.K2545@freebie.lemis.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 21:00:38 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >(moved to -chat) > >On Sunday, 4 October 1998 at 4:03:59 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> (and these new Mylex RAID arrays look like it was well-worth the downtime) >> I've rolled and uploaded a new 3.0 BETA snapshot, > >How about a snapshot of the new ftp.cdrom.com? In fact I did take a couple of digital pictures of the machine before I left. I'll see about getting one online at www.cdrom.com RSN. Note that this configuration will be rather short lived; an upgrade to a Xeon/400 is planned in about a month or so and I'll also be moving the whole machine to a new co-lo facility at the same time. This past week has been quite hellish for me. Everything imaginable that could go wrong, did. I had more than 10 contigency plans for various possible, but unlikely problems, and I invoked all of those and a few more that I had to develop on the spot. It started with my flight being two hours late. Then I lost my wallet with ID and credit cards in the Taxi as I arrived at the hotel. I found myself 500 miles from home with no money. no ID, and no place to stay; not a pleasant experiance. I did eventually recover it, but not until I had put blocks on the credit cards and sweated for several hours. The problems with the upgrade ranged the full spectrum - from the RAID controller being damaged in shipping to the BIOS not being able to boot a 125GB "disk". At one point I lost _all_ of the files on wcarchive (!!! this is BAD with a capital "B"), but after spending a full day on the problem, I was able to recover the screwed-up RAID sets. Suggestion: If you ever get a Mylex RAID controller, DON'T try to reorganize the distribution of disk drives on the various SCSI channels after you've already put irreplaceable data on them. Although the RAID controller is supposed to properly recognize the moving of drives to different channels/SCSI IDs automatically, the firmware has serious bugs and will screw you over and scramble your configuration! Anyway, I apologize for the extended downtime. In the end, sheer determination won out and I made it all work. The new hardware is (so far) working flawlessly and now I get to look forward to the next upgrade. :-) -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 02:38:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA10892 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 02:38:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA10803 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 02:37:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from jarnsaxa.ifi.uio.no (2602@jarnsaxa.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.44]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id LAA23290; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:36:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by jarnsaxa.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:36:04 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com Cc: Greg Lehey , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD Chat , tech@cdrom.com Subject: Re: To comemorate ftp.cdrom.com's resurrection References: <199810050400.VAA05982@implode.root.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 05 Oct 1998 11:36:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: David Greenman's message of "Sun, 04 Oct 1998 21:00:38 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.44/Emacs 20.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id CAA10839 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman writes: > [...] > Anyway, I apologize for the extended downtime. In the end, sheer > determination won out and I made it all work. The new hardware is (so far) > working flawlessly and now I get to look forward to the next upgrade. :-) You are our hero! :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 07:06:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10487 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 07:06:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from voland.freenet.bishkek.su (voland.freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10444 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 07:06:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fygrave@freenet.bishkek.su) Received: from freenet.kg (mail@freenet.bishkek.su [193.125.230.1]) by voland.freenet.bishkek.su (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA22942; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:03:15 +0500 (KGT) Received: from localhost (fygrave@localhost) by freenet.kg (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id TAA02319; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:24:54 +0500 (KGT) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:24:54 +0500 (KGT) From: CyberPsychotic To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Smith , Frank Pawlak , Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981003233749.040c07d0@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: X-copyright: The content of this message is intellectual property of its author. So are all mistakes. X-warning: Anyone sending unwanted advertising e-mail to this address will be charged 25USD for network traffic and computing time. By extracting my address from this message or its header you agree to these terms. X-lummer: Bill Gates MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > That's the right thing to do! However, if you did that, you really didn't > have to install 2.2.6 first. You could have just started with the 2.2.7 > floppy diskette, and it would have gone faster. really?:) but would it be able to set up PPP over leased line and other things?:) here I had to finetune pppd daemon alot before got it working :-) > >What were those security issues anyway? I checked bugtraq, but > >didnt find much.. any other place, where I could have a look? > > Bugtraq covered most of them. The freebsd-security list covered pretty > much all. CERT reported 4 as formal advisories. is there any online-browsable freebsd-security archive list? I looked cert advisories, but didnt any later (1998 persumambly is the year when 2.2.6 is out) some remote-r00t exploitable things. mmap, some teardrop-like posts, and nfs problem.. is there anything I haven't noted? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 08:10:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20976 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 08:10:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20965 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 08:10:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12585; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:07:39 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <3618E0C6.7B897775@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 16:07:50 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: http://www.internationalschool.co.uk/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass CC: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Status Report on 2.2.6 Giveaway CD's References: <4.1.19981003121246.041c3330@mail.lariat.org> <13859.907436889@time.cdrom.com> <4.1.19981003121246.041c3330@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981003203743.0423c360@mail.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > Again, I'd prepare a sticker for the disk, a program to patch > the known holes, and/or instructions for an immediate, painless > upgrade. iirc one of the readme's mentions that you should read the errata file on the ftp site, and the painless upgrade (cvsupit) isn't all that hard to find out about... if any sticker was needed for 2.2.6 it's one that explains how to setup ppp when you didn't install DES :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 10:13:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA13853 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:13:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Genesis.Denninger.Net (kdhome-2.pr.mcs.net [205.164.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA13846 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 10:13:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from karl@Genesis.Denninger.Net) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Genesis.Denninger.Net (8.9.1/8.8.2) id MAA15294 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:13:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19981005121318.A15283@Denninger.Net> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:13:18 -0500 From: Karl Denninger To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Advocacy - SAMBA as an NTAS replacement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Organization: Karl's Sushi and Packet Smashers X-Die-Spammers: Spammers will be LARTed and the remains fed to my cat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Folks, If you want to know where you can REALLY make a dent in the Microsoft Juggernaut, let me give you a hint: Samba Really. About two weeks ago I took an NTAS machine which I had been using for quite some time for file service at my home. I measured, carefully, the performance levels I was getting from the machine for file service requests. Then I reloaded the box with FreeBSD, loaded the Samba port, configured, and retested. I was frankly shocked. The SAME P166/64MB machine was almost FOUR TIMES as fast on disk I/O, it came up on the first try, and it "just worked". Impressed isn't even the right word for it. I was floored. The automated user directory management along with the rest was more than enough for me, not to mention the easier administration *and better security*. I doubt I'll ever find a valid use for NTAS again (PC file and print service was the ONE place that I found NTAS to be worthwhile). And yes, it authenticates just like an NT machine - in fact, you'd be hard-pressed to tell the difference from the client side. Then price NTAS and then compare it with $0 + $0 (FreeBSD + Samba). Tell me why everyone in their right mind isn't doing exactly this? -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 12:08:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06528 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:08:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from geek.grf.ov.com (geek.grf.ov.com [192.251.86.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06414 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:08:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from pebbles (pebbles.cam.veritas.com [166.98.49.16]) by geek.grf.ov.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id PAA15983 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:07:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: X-Sender: ksmm@mail.cybercom.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 15:06:33 -0400 To: FreeBSD Chat From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Finding FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As a friendly note to all FreeBSD users in the Greater Boston area, I've found that FreeBSD CD-ROMs can be purchased at the Coop in Harvard Square. (Good luck finding the software in the three-store maze.) As of this writing, the software is current (version 2.2.7) and they have version of Greg Lehey's "The Complete FreeBSD" with 2.2.7 CD-ROMs as well. If you want the CD-ROMs only, they can be purchased on the cheap at the Micro Center on Memorial Drive in Cambridge. Quantum Books in Kendall Square, Cambridge, will also special order any books or CD-ROMs, including the FreeBSD series. K.S. Somerville, MA To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 12:40:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13961 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:40:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail11.digital.com (mail11.digital.com [192.208.46.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA13947 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:40:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from perry@zso.dec.com) Received: from rust.zso.dec.com (rust.zso.dec.com [16.64.0.1]) by mail11.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0g) with SMTP id PAA13136; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:15:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.zso.dec.com by rust.zso.dec.com (5.65/DECwest-CLUSTRIX-mwd-12Dec94) id AA28051; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:15:44 -0700 From: perry@zso.dec.com (Reginald Perry) To: Subject: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:12:50 -0700 Message-Id: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F2FF@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi there, There is an article in the Net Tools, From The Bench section of PC Magazine talking about FreeBSD 2.2.7. Looks pretty factual, but there was one confusing statement. They initially configured both machines with 128MB of RAM. They then increased the RAM and noted that as you do this NT surpasses FreeBSD in their performance measure. They state that this is because of a cache limitation in Apache and FreeBSD. Is this true? Could someone describe this in more detail if so? Thanks. -Reggie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 13:21:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22308 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:21:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt053nb4.san.rr.com (dt053nb4.san.rr.com [204.210.34.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22282 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:21:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Received: from dal.net (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt053nb4.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22909; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:21:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Message-ID: <36192A34.8236DFD0@dal.net> Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 13:21:08 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE-0929 i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Karl Denninger CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Advocacy - SAMBA as an NTAS replacement References: <19981005121318.A15283@Denninger.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Karl Denninger wrote: > Then price NTAS and then compare it with $0 + $0 (FreeBSD + Samba). > > Tell me why everyone in their right mind isn't doing exactly this? Actually a lot of people are. I hear stories (from reliable sources) all the time about people in IS departments who've quietly been replacing NT machines with some variation of Unix + Samba because the NT stuff was a nightmare to maintain and secure. In more than one location I know of people who've kept the NT boxes "out front" with shiny things on the screen for the managers to point to when doing tours. If my experience is representative of a larger trend (and from what I've read it is), the next wave of upgrades won't be to NT 5, it'll be "upgrading back" to unix. Should be interesting. :) Doug (who thinks that FreeBSD + Samba could become as big or bigger than FreeBSD + Apache is now with the right marketing...) -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** Go PADRES! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 13:29:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24218 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:29:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Genesis.Denninger.Net (kdhome-2.pr.mcs.net [205.164.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24198 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:29:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from karl@Genesis.Denninger.Net) Received: (from karl@localhost) by Genesis.Denninger.Net (8.9.1/8.8.2) id PAA16615; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:28:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19981005152856.A16611@Denninger.Net> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:28:56 -0500 From: Karl Denninger To: Studded Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Advocacy - SAMBA as an NTAS replacement References: <19981005121318.A15283@Denninger.Net> <36192A34.8236DFD0@dal.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <36192A34.8236DFD0@dal.net>; from Studded on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 01:21:08PM -0700 Organization: Karl's Sushi and Packet Smashers X-Die-Spammers: Spammers will be LARTed and the remains fed to my cat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 01:21:08PM -0700, Studded wrote: > Karl Denninger wrote: > > > Then price NTAS and then compare it with $0 + $0 (FreeBSD + Samba). > > > > Tell me why everyone in their right mind isn't doing exactly this? > > Actually a lot of people are. I hear stories (from reliable sources) > all the time about people in IS departments who've quietly been > replacing NT machines with some variation of Unix + Samba because the NT > stuff was a nightmare to maintain and secure. In more than one location > I know of people who've kept the NT boxes "out front" with shiny things > on the screen for the managers to point to when doing tours. > > If my experience is representative of a larger trend (and from what > I've read it is), the next wave of upgrades won't be to NT 5, it'll be > "upgrading back" to unix. Should be interesting. :) > > Doug (who thinks that FreeBSD + Samba could become as big or bigger than > FreeBSD + Apache is now with the right marketing...) Well, the performance differential ALONE is worth it. The only thing that appears to be missing is complete domain services (ie: the ability to have lots of Samba servers but have them all share SMB authentication data). There are auditing/ACL issues (most Unices just don't do this stuff at present) but they are relatively minor for most people. The siren song of that kind of capability is far more compelling than the fact of it. I remember doing NFS file servers for Windows on B&W NFS years ago to a Unix system as a means of avoiding what I consider to be "Hell on Earth" - that was spelled "NOVELL". Now I see the same capability *NATIVE* on Unix, and I like it - a lot. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@denninger.net) http://www.mcs.net/~karl I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 13:30:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA24487 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24391 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:30:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA02154; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:27:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA07520; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:27:11 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19981005222711.23452@follo.net> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:27:11 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Reginald Perry , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F2FF@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F2FF@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com>; from Reginald Perry on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 12:12:50PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 12:12:50PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > Hi there, > There is an article in the Net Tools, From The Bench section of PC Magazine > talking about FreeBSD 2.2.7. Looks pretty factual, but there was one > confusing statement. They initially configured both machines with 128MB of > RAM. They then increased the RAM and noted that as you do this NT surpasses > FreeBSD in their performance measure. They state that this is because of a > cache limitation in Apache and FreeBSD. Is this true? Could someone describe > this in more detail if so? FreeBSD is tuned to have max performance when it get under load - ie, when it actually is doing something. There should not be any limitations to the use of cache - FreeBSD basically regard _everything_ as cache. Your entire RAM is just a cache for the disk. I'd guess the benchmark interpretation comes from the reviewer doing a wild guess on why FreeBSD was slower. BTW: How much was the difference? And how much did they increase the RAM size? Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 13:56:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00827 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:56:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00819 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:56:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from perry@zso.dec.com) Received: from rust.zso.dec.com (rust.zso.dec.com [16.64.0.1]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0g) with SMTP id QAA12419 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:56:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.zso.dec.com by rust.zso.dec.com (5.65/DECwest-CLUSTRIX-mwd-12Dec94) id AA00211; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:56:30 -0700 From: perry@zso.dec.com (Reginald Perry) To: Subject: RE: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:53:35 -0700 Message-Id: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F300@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD06BB3A@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org They didn't say. This is the relevant paragraph: "We tested FreeBSD in one of its most common applications: Web serving. We set up two Dell PowerEdge 2200 servers with 128MB RAM and a single Pentium II CPU, installing FreeBSD with Apache 1.3.0 on one and Windows NT 4.0 with IIS 4.0 on the other. On our ZD WebBench 2.0 tests, performance leveled off quickly; memory was the bottleneck for both NOSs. FreeBSD outperformed Windows NT by a sizable margin, however, as you increase RAM, Windows NT surpasses FreeBSD because of a cache limitation in Apache and FreeBSD." At the bottom of the page, is a WebBench graph of clients on the X axis and requests/second on the Y axis that shows both leveling off at about 8 clients with NT starting to level off above 4 clients and FreeBSD leveling off very sharply at 8 clients. The level is at ~200 requests/second for NT and ~600 requests/second for FreeBSD, if I am extrapolating this graph correctly. The graph measures out to 60 clients. Of course they failed to show a graph for average maximum requests/second vs. amount of RAM. -Reggie -----Original Message----- From: Eivind Eklund [mailto:eivind@yes.no] Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 1:27 PM To: Reginald Perry; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 12:12:50PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > Hi there, > There is an article in the Net Tools, From The Bench section of PC Magazine > talking about FreeBSD 2.2.7. Looks pretty factual, but there was one > confusing statement. They initially configured both machines with 128MB of > RAM. They then increased the RAM and noted that as you do this NT surpasses > FreeBSD in their performance measure. They state that this is because of a > cache limitation in Apache and FreeBSD. Is this true? Could someone describe > this in more detail if so? FreeBSD is tuned to have max performance when it get under load - ie, when it actually is doing something. There should not be any limitations to the use of cache - FreeBSD basically regard _everything_ as cache. Your entire RAM is just a cache for the disk. I'd guess the benchmark interpretation comes from the reviewer doing a wild guess on why FreeBSD was slower. BTW: How much was the difference? And how much did they increase the RAM size? Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 14:41:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07001 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:41:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06890 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id XAA11821; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:30:05 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:30:05 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Reginald Perry , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F2FF@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> <19981005222711.23452@follo.net> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 05 Oct 1998 23:30:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: Eivind Eklund's message of "Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:27:11 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA06978 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund writes: > I'd guess the benchmark interpretation comes from the reviewer doing a > wild guess on why FreeBSD was slower. Hear hear. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that FreeBSD lagged behind NT as load increased simply because they didn't have a competent FreeBSD admin tuning the box. There are a couple of things you can do to a FreeBSD system that will make it positively scream for Web use but aren't in the default config; the squid docs mention some of it (e.g. tuning the number and size of mbufs) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 15:15:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA13917 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:15:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA13899 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:15:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA03203; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:12:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA07907; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:12:38 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19981006001237.11507@follo.net> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:12:37 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Reginald Perry , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD06BB3A@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F300@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F300@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com>; from Reginald Perry on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 01:53:35PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 01:53:35PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > They didn't say. This is the relevant paragraph: > > "We tested FreeBSD in one of its most common applications: Web serving. We > set up two Dell PowerEdge 2200 servers with 128MB RAM and a single Pentium > II CPU, installing FreeBSD with Apache 1.3.0 on one and Windows NT 4.0 with > IIS 4.0 on the other. On our ZD WebBench 2.0 tests, performance leveled off > quickly; memory was the bottleneck for both NOSs. FreeBSD outperformed > Windows NT by a sizable margin, however, as you increase RAM, Windows NT > surpasses FreeBSD because of a cache limitation in Apache and FreeBSD." > > At the bottom of the page, is a WebBench graph of clients on the X axis and > requests/second on the Y axis that shows both leveling off at about 8 > clients with NT starting to level off above 4 clients and FreeBSD leveling > off very sharply at 8 clients. The level is at ~200 requests/second for NT > and ~600 requests/second for FreeBSD, if I am extrapolating this graph > correctly. The graph measures out to 60 clients. Of course they failed to > show a graph for average maximum requests/second vs. amount of RAM. So FreeBSD has about 3x higher performance than NT on the same hardware? Anyway; 600 requests/second is about 10MBit/(600*8) = 2184 bytes transfer per request. This fit pretty well with the fact that they're trying to emulate a typical web-server load (according to the WebBench description at http://www.zdnet.com/zdbop/webbench/1main/1wrktree.htm). If that is IT (ie, they're using a 10MBit NIC) I'm not surprised at the sharp cutoff - I'd expect a sharp cut-off around the capacity of the network :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 15:19:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA15137 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:19:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA15132 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:19:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id PAA17558; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:19:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA24724; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:19:17 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id QAA19768; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:19:17 -0600 Message-ID: <361945E4.2FA1CDCC@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 16:19:16 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: To comemorate ftp.cdrom.com's resurrection References: <199810050400.VAA05982@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav wrote: > > David Greenman writes: > > [...] > > Anyway, I apologize for the extended downtime. In the end, sheer > > determination won out and I made it all work. The new hardware is (so far) > > working flawlessly and now I get to look forward to the next upgrade. :-) > > You are our hero! :) Hear, hear. Thanks, David, for all the hard work you've put into this upgrade and your many other contributions over the years. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 15:24:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16352 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA16282 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:24:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from perry@zso.dec.com) Received: from rust.zso.dec.com (rust.zso.dec.com [16.64.0.1]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0g) with SMTP id SAA29193; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:23:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.zso.dec.com by rust.zso.dec.com (5.65/DECwest-CLUSTRIX-mwd-12Dec94) id AA02764; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:23:53 -0700 From: perry@zso.dec.com (Reginald Perry) To: "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Dag-Erling_C._Sm=F8rgrav_'?=" , "'Eivind Eklund'" Cc: Subject: RE: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:20:58 -0700 Message-Id: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F302@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD06BB42@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I figured that there was a misinterpretation on the reviewers part. What I wanted to accomplish was to determine where the disconnect was and to see if there was a way that users could easily fix this. From the discussion so far, it looks like this wont be an issue unless you have a very high traffic site, but I still wish there was some correction that could be sent to these people. I like seeing FreeBSD in the press, but I hate misleading information. Also, Elvind just noted that the saturation point is the network saturation point. I wasnt so much worried about that as I was interested in this statement that "however, as you increase RAM, Windows NT surpasses FreeBSD because of a cache limitation in Apache and FreeBSD.". Otherwise I wasnt really worried about the article too much. It is entertaining that the 600 requests/second is the network saturation point. :-) -Reggie -----Original Message----- From: Dag-Erling C. Smxrgrav [mailto:dag-erli@ifi.uio.no] Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 2:30 PM To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Reginald Perry; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD Eivind Eklund writes: > I'd guess the benchmark interpretation comes from the reviewer doing a > wild guess on why FreeBSD was slower. Hear hear. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that FreeBSD lagged behind NT as load increased simply because they didn't have a competent FreeBSD admin tuning the box. There are a couple of things you can do to a FreeBSD system that will make it positively scream for Web use but aren't in the default config; the squid docs mention some of it (e.g. tuning the number and size of mbufs) DES -- Dag-Erling Smxrgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 16:03:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26335 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:03:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26322 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:03:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from perry@zso.dec.com) Received: from rust.zso.dec.com (rust.zso.dec.com [16.64.0.1]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0g) with SMTP id TAA03504; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:03:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.zso.dec.com by rust.zso.dec.com (5.65/DECwest-CLUSTRIX-mwd-12Dec94) id AA03449; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:03:22 -0700 From: perry@zso.dec.com (Reginald Perry) To: "'Eivind Eklund'" , Subject: RE: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:00:28 -0700 Message-Id: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F304@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD06BB49@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org DUH! Well of course NT was able to increase from ~200 requests/second to catch up with FreeBSD. The FreeBSD box had saturated the network and had nowhere else to go. The NT box still had 400 requests/second worth of head room before network saturation! So who is going to write the author and request a correction? -----Original Message----- From: Eivind Eklund [mailto:eivind@yes.no] Sent: Monday, October 05, 1998 3:13 PM To: Reginald Perry; freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 01:53:35PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > They didn't say. This is the relevant paragraph: > > "We tested FreeBSD in one of its most common applications: Web serving. We > set up two Dell PowerEdge 2200 servers with 128MB RAM and a single Pentium > II CPU, installing FreeBSD with Apache 1.3.0 on one and Windows NT 4.0 with > IIS 4.0 on the other. On our ZD WebBench 2.0 tests, performance leveled off > quickly; memory was the bottleneck for both NOSs. FreeBSD outperformed > Windows NT by a sizable margin, however, as you increase RAM, Windows NT > surpasses FreeBSD because of a cache limitation in Apache and FreeBSD." > > At the bottom of the page, is a WebBench graph of clients on the X axis and > requests/second on the Y axis that shows both leveling off at about 8 > clients with NT starting to level off above 4 clients and FreeBSD leveling > off very sharply at 8 clients. The level is at ~200 requests/second for NT > and ~600 requests/second for FreeBSD, if I am extrapolating this graph > correctly. The graph measures out to 60 clients. Of course they failed to > show a graph for average maximum requests/second vs. amount of RAM. So FreeBSD has about 3x higher performance than NT on the same hardware? Anyway; 600 requests/second is about 10MBit/(600*8) = 2184 bytes transfer per request. This fit pretty well with the fact that they're trying to emulate a typical web-server load (according to the WebBench description at http://www.zdnet.com/zdbop/webbench/1main/1wrktree.htm). If that is IT (ie, they're using a 10MBit NIC) I'm not surprised at the sharp cutoff - I'd expect a sharp cut-off around the capacity of the network :-) Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 16:18:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28635 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:18:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA28628 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:18:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA05920; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:18:02 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 17:17:00 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Pascal for Linux won't work on FreeBSD.... Why? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just tried to run the "Free Pascal" compiler, which can be found at http://tfdec1.fys.kuleuven.ac.be:80/~michael/fpc/download.html on a FreeBSD 2.2.7 machine with the Linux emulation package installed. (Alas, the compiler is GPL'ed and only compiles programs to ELF format.) Here's what happened: develop: {47} ppc386 ELF binary type not known Abort trap develop: {48} I tried using the "brandelf" utility to brand the ELF executable file with the type "Linux" -- no dice. Got the same message. What's wrong? --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 16:46:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04007 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:46:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03988 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:46:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA04043; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 01:46:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA08333; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 01:46:11 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19981006014611.35325@follo.net> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 01:46:11 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pascal for Linux won't work on FreeBSD.... Why? References: <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 05:17:00PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 05:17:00PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Just tried to run the "Free Pascal" compiler, which can be found at > > http://tfdec1.fys.kuleuven.ac.be:80/~michael/fpc/download.html > > on a FreeBSD 2.2.7 machine with the Linux emulation package installed. > (Alas, the compiler is GPL'ed and only compiles programs to ELF format.) > > Here's what happened: > > develop: {47} ppc386 > ELF binary type not known > Abort trap > develop: {48} > > I tried using the "brandelf" utility to brand the ELF executable file with > the type "Linux" -- no dice. Got the same message. > > What's wrong? First guesses: You've not loaded the Linux emulator, or it is trying to execute more ELF binaries after having run that one. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 17:09:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA09257 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:09:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terror.hungry.com (terror.hungry.com [199.181.107.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA09189 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:09:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fn@hungry.com) Received: (qmail 8582 invoked by uid 507); 6 Oct 1998 00:08:54 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F2FF@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> From: Faried Nawaz <__undead@LISP-READER.Hungry.COM> Date: 05 Oct 1998 17:08:53 -0700 In-Reply-To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no's message of 5 Oct 1998 16:30:47 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.37/XEmacs 19.16 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Perhaps we need a set of 'GENERIC'-like kernels sitting on an ftp server somewhere that are optimized for different tasks. After the user has selected the distributions to install, sysinstall could ask them if the machine is going to be used as a mailhost/webserver/whatever, and install the appropriate kernel. To be really effective, we need something like a kernel link kit that has a few .o or .a files that generates a working kernel -- like the XFree86 server link kit. Perhaps ELF will help with that... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 17:38:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17006 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16958 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:37:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA06935; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:37:42 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981005180601.041b4e00@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 18:13:51 -0600 To: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pascal for Linux won't work on FreeBSD.... Why? In-Reply-To: <19981006014611.35325@follo.net> References: <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:46 AM 10/6/98 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >First guesses: You've not loaded the Linux emulator, or it is trying >to execute more ELF binaries after having run that one. Turns out it was a little more complex than that, but I managed to get it to run. However, it generated code that the FreeBSD version of as didn't like for some reason. For example, when I entered the program program Hello; begin Writeln('Hello, world!'); end. it spewed a whole bunch of bogus output (see below) and then died. Is there something wrong that's obvious from what's below? It'd be really nice to compile some of my old Turbo Pascal to run on FreeBSD. --Brett Free Pascal Compiler version 0.99.8 [1998/09/29] for i386 Copyright (c) 1993-98 by Florian Klaempfl Target OS: Linux-i386 Compiling hello.pas Assembling hello pushl %ebp: template 1 operands opcode 55 #1 type r16, r32, modrm: mode 0 reg 0 reg/mem 0 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: r32, ebp movl %esp,%ebp: template 2 operands opcode 89 DW #1 type r8, r16, r32, #2 type r8, r16, r32, Mem8, Mem16, Mem32, BaseIndex, d8, d16, d32, modrm: mode 3 reg 4 reg/mem 5 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: r32, esp #2: r32, ebp subl $4,%esp: template 2 operands opcode 83 ext 5 #1 type i8s, #2 type r16, r32, Mem16, Mem32, BaseIndex, d8, d16, d32, modrm: mode 3 reg 5 reg/mem 4 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: i8s, segment absolute add_number 4 (4) #2: r32, esp call INIT$$SYSLINUX: template 1 operands opcode e8 #1 type d32, modrm: mode 0 reg 0 reg/mem 0 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: d32, segment unknown add_number 0 (0) add_symbol INIT$$SYSLINUX type unknown leal U_SYSLINUX_OUTPUT,%edi: template 2 operands opcode 8d #1 type Mem16, Mem32, BaseIndex, d8, d16, d32, #2 type r16, r32, modrm: mode 0 reg 7 reg/mem 5 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: Mem32, d32, segment unknown add_number 0 (0) add_symbol U_SYSLINUX_OUTPUT type unknown #2: r32, edi movl %edi,-4(%ebp): template 2 operands opcode 89 DW #1 type r8, r16, r32, #2 type r8, r16, r32, Mem8, Mem16, Mem32, BaseIndex, d8, d16, d32, modrm: mode 1 reg 7 reg/mem 5 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: r32, edi #2: Mem32, BaseIndex, d8, d32, segment absolute add_number -4 (fffffffc) pushl $.L5: template 1 operands opcode 68 #1 type i16, i32, modrm: mode 0 reg 0 reg/mem 0 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: i32, segment unknown add_number 0 (0) add_symbol .L5 type unknown pushl -4(%ebp): template 1 operands opcode ff ext 6 #1 type r16, r32, Mem16, Mem32, BaseIndex, d8, d16, d32, modrm: mode 1 reg 6 reg/mem 5 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: Mem32, BaseIndex, d8, d32, segment absolute add_number -4 (fffffffc) pushl $0: template 1 operands opcode 6a #1 type i8s, modrm: mode 0 reg 0 reg/mem 0 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: i8s, segment absolute add_number 0 (0) call WRITE_TEXT_STRING: template 1 operands opcode e8 #1 type d32, modrm: mode 0 reg 0 reg/mem 0 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: d32, segment unknown add_number 0 (0) add_symbol WRITE_TEXT_STRING type unknown pushl -4(%ebp): template 1 operands opcode ff ext 6 #1 type r16, r32, Mem16, Mem32, BaseIndex, d8, d16, d32, modrm: mode 1 reg 6 reg/mem 5 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: Mem32, BaseIndex, d8, d32, segment absolute add_number -4 (fffffffc) call WRITELN_END: template 1 operands opcode e8 #1 type d32, modrm: mode 0 reg 0 reg/mem 0 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: d32, segment unknown add_number 0 (0) add_symbol WRITELN_END type unknown call __EXIT: template 1 operands opcode e8 #1 type d32, modrm: mode 0 reg 0 reg/mem 0 base 0 index 0 scale 0 #1: d32, segment unknown add_number 0 (0) add_symbol __EXIT type unknown leave: template 0 operands opcode c9 modrm: mode 0 reg 0 reg/mem 0 base 0 index 0 scale 0 ret: template 0 operands opcode c3 modrm: mode 0 reg 0 reg/mem 0 base 0 index 0 scale 0 Linking hello Warning: Error while linking Closing script ppas.sh 4 Lines compiled, 0.0 sec To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 17:46:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18860 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:46:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA18789 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:45:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA04893; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 02:45:37 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA08974; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 02:45:37 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19981006024537.00778@follo.net> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 02:45:37 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pascal for Linux won't work on FreeBSD.... Why? References: <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> <19981006014611.35325@follo.net> <4.1.19981005180601.041b4e00@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981005180601.041b4e00@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 06:13:51PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 06:13:51PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:46 AM 10/6/98 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > >First guesses: You've not loaded the Linux emulator, or it is trying > >to execute more ELF binaries after having run that one. > > Turns out it was a little more complex than that, but I managed to > get it to run. However, it generated code that the FreeBSD version of > as didn't like for some reason. For example, when I entered the program > > program Hello; > begin > Writeln('Hello, world!'); > end. > > it spewed a whole bunch of bogus output (see below) and then died. Is > there something wrong that's obvious from what's below? It'd be really > nice to compile some of my old Turbo Pascal to run on FreeBSD. Hmm, it seems it is pushing out the assembly code on stdout/stderr instead of (or in addition to) pushing it to a file, and possibly that it is executing ld incorrectly. Have you tried running linuxktrace (need older kernel, I think) or truss on it? The output from either of this might prove enlightening. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 17:56:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21683 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:56:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21593 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:56:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA07092; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:56:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981005185216.041e8760@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 18:54:37 -0600 To: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pascal for Linux won't work on FreeBSD.... Why? In-Reply-To: <19981006024537.00778@follo.net> References: <4.1.19981005180601.041b4e00@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> <19981006014611.35325@follo.net> <4.1.19981005180601.041b4e00@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:45 AM 10/6/98 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: >Hmm, it seems it is pushing out the assembly code on stdout/stderr >instead of (or in addition to) pushing it to a file, I think that the assembler is displaying stuff that it's rejecting. ld doesn't seem to be getting anything it can use. I wonder: is FreeBSD's as significantly different from the Linux as? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 17:57:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA21815 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:57:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from redfish.go2net.com (redfish.go2net.com [207.178.55.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA21803 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:57:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@go2net.com) Received: from marcs by redfish.go2net.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zQLGI-0002al-00; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:45:58 -0700 Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:45:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Marc Slemko X-Sender: marcs@redfish To: Eivind Eklund cc: Reginald Perry , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19981005222711.23452@follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 12:12:50PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > > Hi there, > > There is an article in the Net Tools, From The Bench section of PC Magazine > > talking about FreeBSD 2.2.7. Looks pretty factual, but there was one > > confusing statement. They initially configured both machines with 128MB of > > RAM. They then increased the RAM and noted that as you do this NT surpasses > > FreeBSD in their performance measure. They state that this is because of a > > cache limitation in Apache and FreeBSD. Is this true? Could someone describe > > this in more detail if so? > > FreeBSD is tuned to have max performance when it get under load - ie, > when it actually is doing something. There should not be any > limitations to the use of cache - FreeBSD basically regard > _everything_ as cache. Your entire RAM is just a cache for the disk. > > I'd guess the benchmark interpretation comes from the reviewer doing a > wild guess on why FreeBSD was slower. Partly. In my experience, zdnet has had this odd assumption for the past year or so that web servers must have a large in memory cache or else they can't be fast. From what I have been told, both by people there and from other vendors, is that when they went from webbench 1.1(?) to 2.0, the size of the test set increased a lot. One of Netscape's servers had been using a fixed size cache containing a copy of the data to get good benchmark numbers; with the smaller working set of documents in 1.1, this worked well. Then they went to 2.0, their cache was too small so it resulted in massive thrashing and very slow numbers. When Netscape ran back to the office and compiled a new DLL with a bigger cache size that could hold the document tree in memory and threw it in (saying something about fixing the cache), performance shot up. Therefore, certain people at zdnet decided that you always need to have a seperate in memory cache. Michael Johnson (Red Hat) and I tried to get them to understand that the OS is the thing that should be doing the caching, and while some people appeared to get the hint, others probably still don't have the hint. The environment also sucks clueons away very quickly. Who are the authors on the review? Note that in the typical zd setup, the reviewers are in New York but the benchmarking is done somewhere else (often the Bay area) and the zdbench people that write their testing software is in yet another location. So you have these massive three way (or four, with a vendor) conference calls on really pathetic phones. Now, as to the reason why it dropped off, there are several possibilities. First, MaxClients was set too low. Unlikely, since someone posted that they only went up to 60 clients, which is typical (I won't get started on exactly what sort of environment such benchmarks simulate and how I have seldom seen anything even close to that in real life) of zdnet. Second, they had low process limits. If they installed Apache themself or if the port is bogus (dont' know, haven't looked), things like low processes per user limits could certainly hurt this. Now, there _is_ some validity to the suggestion that IIS does better caching. With Apache, you have to get the metadata about each file again for each hit, you have to open and close the file for each hit, etc. IIS essentially keeps a cache of open descriptors and has a few optimizations to let NT pump the data from the descriptor to the network very quickly. I would like to see them do a comparison for dynamic in-process content using an Apache module vs. ISAPI. (They don't have an Apache module in the current webbench distribution so won't run tests using Apache modules, and when I keep asking over and over for them to include one, even offering a pre-written one that does just what they need, I get no response). With IIS, using a module for dynamic content (very trivial dynamic content; essentially a printenv) results in a fair performance drop. With Apache, it could well result in a performance improvement. I am suprised that they didn't contact anyone at FreeBSD; it would be useful for someone there to get in touch with them and gently remind them, for the future, that people are available to help. Vendor help in configuration is the norm. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 17:59:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22150 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:59:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22114 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:59:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA05073; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 02:59:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id CAA09053; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 02:59:11 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19981006025911.49443@follo.net> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 02:59:11 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pascal for Linux won't work on FreeBSD.... Why? References: <4.1.19981005180601.041b4e00@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> <19981006014611.35325@follo.net> <4.1.19981005180601.041b4e00@mail.lariat.org> <19981006024537.00778@follo.net> <4.1.19981005185216.041e8760@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981005185216.041e8760@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 06:54:37PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 06:54:37PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:45 AM 10/6/98 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > >Hmm, it seems it is pushing out the assembly code on stdout/stderr > >instead of (or in addition to) pushing it to a file, > > I think that the assembler is displaying stuff that it's rejecting. > ld doesn't seem to be getting anything it can use. I wonder: is > FreeBSD's as significantly different from the Linux as? It shouldn't be, but I think we may be running an older version. You could compile up the latest version of binutils and put the as under /compat/linux/ as a test, I guess. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 18:48:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29770 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29763 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:48:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id SAA31698; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:48:10 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id SAA17703; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:48:00 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: The Classiest Man Alive cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Finding FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Excellent topic! Anyone looking for FreeBSD in Seattle area can find it at: University of Washington Bookstore The Elliot Bay Bookstore They have (at last glance) the Book/CDROM bundles on the shelf and can order any of the unbundled items. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 19:25:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA05204 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:25:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05199 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:25:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA20757; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:55:31 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA00194; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:55:30 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981006115529.K27781@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:55:29 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pascal for Linux won't work on FreeBSD.... Why? References: <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> <19981006014611.35325@follo.net> <4.1.19981005180601.041b4e00@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981005180601.041b4e00@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 06:13:51PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 5 October 1998 at 18:13:51 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:46 AM 10/6/98 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > >> First guesses: You've not loaded the Linux emulator, or it is trying >> to execute more ELF binaries after having run that one. > > Turns out it was a little more complex than that, but I managed to > get it to run. However, it generated code that the FreeBSD version of > as didn't like for some reason. For example, when I entered the program > > program Hello; > begin > Writeln('Hello, world!'); > end. > > it spewed a whole bunch of bogus output (see below) and then died. Is > there something wrong that's obvious from what's below? > ... > Free Pascal Compiler version 0.99.8 [1998/09/29] for i386 > Copyright (c) 1993-98 by Florian Klaempfl > Target OS: Linux-i386 > Compiling hello.pas > Assembling hello > pushl %ebp: template 1 operands opcode 55 > #1 type r16, r32, > modrm: mode 0 reg 0 reg/mem 0 base 0 index 0 scale 0 > #1: r32, > ebp > movl %esp,%ebp: template 2 operands opcode 89 DW > #1 type r8, r16, r32, > #2 type r8, r16, r32, Mem8, Mem16, Mem32, BaseIndex, d8, d16, d32, > modrm: mode 3 reg 4 reg/mem 5 base 0 index 0 scale 0 > #1: r32, > esp > #2: r32, > ebp > (etc) Yes. I'd guess that it's your mailer, which appears to be adding gratuitous line wraps. That makes it a pain to read. > It'd be really nice to compile some of my old Turbo Pascal to run on > FreeBSD. I thought we had a Pascal compiler somewhere. Hmmm. Maybe not. I've got one here for the PDP-11, and one from 3BSD, which may be the same one, but nothing modern. How about GNU: gpc is the GNU Pascal Compiler. It can be found in ftp://kampi.hut.fi/jtv/gnu-pascal/ Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 19:32:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06465 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:32:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06460 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:32:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01632; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:35:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810060235.TAA01632@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pascal for Linux won't work on FreeBSD.... Why? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 18:54:37 MDT." <4.1.19981005185216.041e8760@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 19:35:30 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 02:45 AM 10/6/98 +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > >Hmm, it seems it is pushing out the assembly code on stdout/stderr > >instead of (or in addition to) pushing it to a file, > > I think that the assembler is displaying stuff that it's rejecting. You shouldn't, because it doesn't do that. > ld doesn't seem to be getting anything it can use. I wonder: is > FreeBSD's as significantly different from the Linux as? No, especially not in the New Elf World. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 19:34:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06763 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:34:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06656 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA20792; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:03:56 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA00219; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:03:36 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981006120336.M27781@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:03:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI References: <199810051613.JAA03441@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199810051613.JAA03441@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 09:13:29AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moved to -chat) On Monday, 5 October 1998 at 9:13:29 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > Here's RMS and his own personal brand of FUD again, this time coming up > with good reasons why UDI will make us all a cargo cult. Actually, he > doesn't talk about us at all, just those G-cattle. > > http://slashdot.org/articles/98/10/04/2211242.shtml Is this interesting? rms is getting rather predictable. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 19:44:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08644 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:44:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08380 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:42:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22448; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:42:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19981005194243.B22408@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:42:43 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Subject: October BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) Meeting Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- BAFUG -- The Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, October 8. This months meeting will be held at The Silicon Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> Nicole Harrington and Josef Grosch will tag-team on the topic of TCP wrappers. TCP Wrappers, which is part of our ports collection, is a package to monitor and filter incoming service requests at an IP layer. Hence it is very handy in security work. ==> Nicole Harrington and Josef Grosch will talk about their plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on October 24 at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Cow Palace in Daly City. This Install-a-thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux) See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> bafug.org is off and running! Thanks to Jan Koum and Nicole Harrington. The FreeBSD Retail page and Counter page have been moved to this site. Suggestions are welcome. ==> Donations of hardware are needed to build BAFUG a test machine for use at the Install-a-thons. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at the Silicon Reef in San Francisco. The Silicon Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By Muni: Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights stop nearby. By BART: Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, on the right (south) side. By Car: From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.arachna.com/freebsd/freebsd-sf.html http://www.reef.com http://www.freebsd-support.com http://www.bafug.org/Install.html Contact: Please contact either Ian Kallen, Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before October 8th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Ian Kallen can be reached at ian@gamespot.com Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com $Id: Oct98Announce.txt,v 1.2 1998/10/03 12:08:57 jgrosch Exp jgrosch $ -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 19:59:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11930 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:59:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11901 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:59:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA08215; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:59:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981005205151.04252590@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:52:30 -0600 To: Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pascal for Linux won't work on FreeBSD.... Why? Cc: Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810060235.TAA01632@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:35 PM 10/5/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >> I think that the assembler is displaying stuff that it's rejecting. > >You shouldn't, because it doesn't do that. Then, pray tell, what IS wrong? There's no indication of whence the messages came. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 20:18:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15136 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:18:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Raccoon.ChipChat.com (Raccoon.ChipChat.com [206.2.228.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15128 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:18:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mrc@ChipChat.com) Received: from ChipChat.com (MRC-Tiger.ChipChat.com [206.2.228.141]) by Raccoon.ChipChat.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id DAA29974 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 03:18:40 GMT Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:18:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Marty Cawthon To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux vs BSD Message-ID: X-X-Sender: mrc@Raccoon.ChipChat.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello BSDaemons, BACKGROUND I frequently encounter the question "Linux vs BSD" from people who use neither. A simple question, but without a simple answer. A credible answer requires a person well versed in both systems without a 'religious' bias. In discussing this topic with two of my brothers it occurred to me just how much is actually common to both systems. For example, an end-user sees the same X11R6 in each case (recompiled for each O.S.), the same Bash, a programmer uses the same gcc, an administrator uses the same sendmail, named, samba, etc. IDEA I think a web page that lists, side by side, many of the components of a "Linux Distribution" and that of a FreeBSD 'distribution' (and NetBSD and OpenBSD) might be very interesting, and a useful reference for discussing "Linux vs BSD". Such a web page would show, without bias or bashing, just how much is in common, and just what is different. DISCUSSION Linux is getting much positive press, a very good thing, but it does put BSD advocates in the position of "selling uphill" when presenting BSD as a preferred solution. All of those books at the bookstore, and the articles in the press make a newcomer wary of FreeBSD. "Why not just 'go with the flow' and use Linux?" If the newcomer could easily see just how much is in common, they might realize that their choice was not as critical or irrevocable as they might think. It might help to convince newcomers that "BSD is a 'safe' choice, as is Linux" because most of the skills you learn and use can move immediately to the other platform. Once convinced of that, it is possible to escape the "bandwagon shadow" of Linux and discuss the merits and uniqueness of BSD. QUESTION Do other BSDaemons think this idea has merit? Has it been done before? I KNOW I WILL REGRET THIS BUT, If there is support for this idea, I will volunteer to do it, or at least start it, with help from others, especially those more knowledgeable than myself. SUMMARY Unlike the path with Microsoft software, a decision to use Linux does not preclude somebody from moving to BSD relatively easily - or vice-versa. A choice in open source operating systems is a strength. It can help both BSD and Linux. My thought is to exploit that strength, and help people feel comfortable about choosing BSD. Marty Cawthon ChipChat P.S. As I am sure it is with other volunteers on FreeBSD, I really don't have time to do this. Nevertheless, I'll give it a go if others think it might have a place, and has not yet been done. "There is no such thing as a Free Lunch" and the same is true of BSD. Perhaps this can be a small contribution I can make, as I am thrilled to learn and use FreeBSD after years of enjoyment with OS/2. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 20:20:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15409 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:20:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15400 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:20:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01937; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:24:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810060324.UAA01937@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Oct 1998 12:03:36 +0930." <19981006120336.M27781@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:24:07 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > (moved to -chat) > > On Monday, 5 October 1998 at 9:13:29 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > Here's RMS and his own personal brand of FUD again, this time coming up > > with good reasons why UDI will make us all a cargo cult. Actually, he > > doesn't talk about us at all, just those G-cattle. > > > > http://slashdot.org/articles/98/10/04/2211242.shtml > > Is this interesting? rms is getting rather predictable. No. Anyone familiar with his style could have written it. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 20:24:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16199 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:24:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16186 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:24:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA08462; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:24:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981005212116.042f9e40@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 21:23:07 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pascal for Linux won't work on FreeBSD.... Why? In-Reply-To: <19981006115529.K27781@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19981005180601.041b4e00@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19981005170436.04226870@mail.lariat.org> <19981006014611.35325@follo.net> <4.1.19981005180601.041b4e00@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:55 AM 10/6/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >gpc is the GNU Pascal Compiler. It can be found in >ftp://kampi.hut.fi/jtv/gnu-pascal/ GNU Pascal is ANSI, though, not Turbo. The dialects have different semantics (and the semantics of ANSI are much more loosely defined than those of Turbo). So, I was hoping to use the other. I'd consder doing a port, but it's GPLed, and I don't particularly want to write GPLed code. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 20:25:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16378 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:25:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA16354 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:25:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01982; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:28:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810060328.UAA01982@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Smith , Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Pascal for Linux won't work on FreeBSD.... Why? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:52:30 MDT." <4.1.19981005205151.04252590@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:28:40 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 07:35 PM 10/5/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > >> I think that the assembler is displaying stuff that it's rejecting. > > > >You shouldn't, because it doesn't do that. > > Then, pray tell, what IS wrong? There's no indication of whence > the messages came. No idea. I can't imagine why it would be spewing that sort of stuff out on stdout/stderr. Is this a development product, or something that's meant to be in production? Have you tried ktracing it and running linux_kdump over the output? You should be fine with the package (you can't build the port at the moment). -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 20:59:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAB20928 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:59:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA20917 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:59:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA08785; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:59:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981005215430.042f4e90@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 21:58:12 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: RMS on UDI In-Reply-To: <19981006120336.M27781@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199810051613.JAA03441@dingo.cdrom.com> <199810051613.JAA03441@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:03 PM 10/6/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >(moved to -chat) > >On Monday, 5 October 1998 at 9:13:29 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >> >> Here's RMS and his own personal brand of FUD again, this time coming up >> with good reasons why UDI will make us all a cargo cult. Actually, he >> doesn't talk about us at all, just those G-cattle. >> >> http://slashdot.org/articles/98/10/04/2211242.shtml > >Is this interesting? rms is getting rather predictable. > He's getting looney. In this tirade, he basically says that anything that would cause Linux to coexist or cooperate with non-GPLed software is e-vile. He also shows a lack of technical knowledge by claiming that using a UDI driver would involve statically linking it into the kernel. Guys, we gotta pull FreeBSD out of its rut, if for no other reason than to provide an alternative to this lunacy. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 21:03:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA22136 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:03:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22096 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:03:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from remote.my.domain (root@host-209-214-79-59.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.79.59]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA28209 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:03:03 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by remote.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01636 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:03:26 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810060403.AAA01636@remote.my.domain> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:24:07 PDT." <199810060324.UAA01937@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 00:03:26 -0400 From: Jerry Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So what is the attitude around FreeBSD toward UDI? Not the concept, which nearly everyone agrees is a Good Thing, but this particular set of proposals from SCO, Intel, et al. I'm more than a little paranoid about I20 and suspicious of UDI too... Cheers, Jerry Hicks jerry.hicks@glenayre.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 21:11:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA24259 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:11:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA24233 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:10:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA21105; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:40:41 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id NAA01588; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:40:40 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981006134040.W27781@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:40:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI References: <199810051613.JAA03441@dingo.cdrom.com> <199810051613.JAA03441@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981006120336.M27781@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981005215430.042f4e90@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981005215430.042f4e90@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 09:58:12PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 5 October 1998 at 21:58:12 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:03 PM 10/6/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> (moved to -chat) >> >> On Monday, 5 October 1998 at 9:13:29 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >>> >>> Here's RMS and his own personal brand of FUD again, this time coming up >>> with good reasons why UDI will make us all a cargo cult. Actually, he >>> doesn't talk about us at all, just those G-cattle. >>> >>> http://slashdot.org/articles/98/10/04/2211242.shtml >> >> Is this interesting? rms is getting rather predictable. > > He's getting looney. In this tirade, he basically says that anything that > would cause Linux to coexist or cooperate with non-GPLed software is > e-vile. Yup. At the AUUG, he went up the Linux (sorry, GNU Linux) stands and looked at their wares, finally walking away from Caldera and saying that he now knew they were evil because they put GPL and non-GPL software on the same CD. Peter Wemm got quite concerned when I later gave him a FreeBSD giveaway CD-ROM--take a look at http://www.lemis.com/~grog/Images/Stallman-and-Wemm.jpeg, where Peter's explaining the source code layout. That's the giveaway CD-ROM in Stallman's right hand. > He also shows a lack of technical knowledge by claiming that using a > UDI driver would involve statically linking it into the kernel. That wasn't lack of technical knowledge. He tends to make claims like that. Here's another (I hope he won't mind me quoting personal mail): > From: rms@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Richard Stallman) > Message-Id: <9109202105.AA19305@mole.gnu.ai.mit.edu> > To: grog@devnull > In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of Fri, 20 Sep 91 14:50:27 MST <9109201250.AA11122@timex.mpd.tandem.com> > Subject: Another gnu? > Status: RO > > I don't know how to post news. So could you find the computergram > address for me? > Guys, we gotta pull FreeBSD out of its rut, if for no other reason than > to provide an alternative to this lunacy. Sorry, I don't understand. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 21:29:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA28361 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:29:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA28339; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:29:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (wes@zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11753; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:29:11 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36199C97.2F2B5E96@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 22:29:11 -0600 From: Wes Peters Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Garance A Drosihn CC: Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: nominate your favorite enemy corporation References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Garance A Drosihn wrote: > > At 8:23 AM +0000 10/5/98, Don Wilde wrote: > >> http://webreview.com/wr/pub/98/10/02/frames/index.html#top > > > > ... is the URL for Michael Swaine's Inertia Awards contest. I've > > nominated a certain company from the Northwest, but I'm sure > > multiple nominations won't hurt... ;D > > My understanding is that this mailing list is for us to discuss > how to advocate FreeBSD to new customers, and not a list to waste > time with name-calling of the competition. Pissing on microsoft > might be fun, but it doesn't convince anyone to "buy into" freebsd. > > Now, I am sincere in saying it might very well be fun to do, I'm > just saying it will not help to advocate freebsd. Which means the original message should have appeared on freebsd-chat, as this and subsequent followups will. Please note that "piss on Microsoft" threads are OPENLY WELCOMED on freebsd-chat. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 21:54:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA01992 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:54:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from beef.cybertouch.org (h24-64-136-88.mt.wave.shaw.ca [24.64.136.88]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01983 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:54:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from beef@cybertouch.org) From: beef@cybertouch.org Received: from ribs (h24-64-136-84.mt.wave.shaw.ca [24.64.136.84]) by beef.cybertouch.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA02803; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:52:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from beef@cybertouch.org) Message-Id: <199810060452.AAA02803@beef.cybertouch.org> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Marty Cawthon Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:52:40 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Linux vs BSD In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Date sent: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:18:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Marty Cawthon To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Linux vs BSD > Hello BSDaemons, > > BACKGROUND > I frequently encounter the question "Linux vs BSD" from people who use > neither. If they have seen neither, and you want to promote FreeBSD, why would you point to another OS? A simple question, but without a simple answer. A credible answer > requires a person well versed in both systems without a 'religious' bias. > > In discussing this topic with two of my brothers it occurred to me just > how much is actually common to both systems. For example, an end-user > sees the same X11R6 in each case (recompiled for each O.S.), the same > Bash, a programmer uses the same gcc, an administrator uses the same > sendmail, named, samba, etc. If that is the case then why not compare to AIX or SCO? > > IDEA > I think a web page that lists, side by side, many of the components of a > "Linux Distribution" and that of a FreeBSD 'distribution' (and NetBSD and > OpenBSD) might be very interesting, and a useful reference for discussing > "Linux vs BSD". Such a web page would show, without bias or bashing, just > how much is in common, and just what is different. > If I were doing the marketing with FreeBSD, I would not at any initial stage, put ANYONE elses name beside FreeBSD. What you want to do is to get the NAME FreeBSD to be synonymous with UNIX. In the same way we (or most of us anyway, refer to Kleenex). This business of comparison between different systems will just lead to fights. And that is a total waste of time. I don't know how old linux is, but there are commercial apps around for it. If you happen to be good at making programs, why not spend the time to make not good, but great commercial applications for FreeBSD. Applications that are useful to companies or the general public are the second best way of getting more people to buy FreeBSD. Obviously the best way to get people to buy FreeBSD is by word of mouth. I for one have a future brother-in-law who sells networking to companies. He is from the "old school" where in University he was doing cobol. His idea of unix is "Lanny you want to still use the horse and cart when the rest of the world is driving cars"? That got me mad as hell. I have been trying to learn FreeBSD for over 2 years. As you can see from this mail, it is sent from Pegaus. The thing is, it is sent not to my isp but to my FreeBSD box sitting or purring rather, beside me here. Now I can invite him to my condo to show him what "the cart and horse can do". As I type this letter I am able to play mp3's via samba, use microsoft word7 again, via samba. Things he said can't be done with out throwing tons of hardware to a unix machine. He says he gets SCO unix for clients that need Unix systems. I want to prove to him that FreeBSD is the way to go. With cablemodems slowly taking over the isp business, as it will. The need to rely on, on-site servers, will increase. I see FreeBSD having a great share in that. Small firms will be able to have file- servers that are web servers, mail servers. With the added feature of knowing the files reside on thier premises. I am no unix guru as some people in the FreeBSD community know. But then I dont give up and die. The point is, that there are millions and i mean millions more, that know about 5% of what I know. Having said that, the ultimate success for FreeBSD and the FreeBSD community lies in both marketing and in increased ready made software/solutions. Lanny > > If the newcomer could easily see just how much is in common, they > might realize that their choice was not as critical or irrevocable as they > might think. It might help to convince newcomers that "BSD is a > 'safe' choice, as is Linux" because most of the skills you learn and use > can move immediately to the other platform. > Once convinced of that, it is possible to escape the "bandwagon shadow" > of Linux and discuss the merits and uniqueness of BSD. I think you are forgetting one thing here. The average "joe" that works at a factory. Comes home to play on his/her pc. They are not interested in the merits of either or any unix system. They want to play games, use irc, look at pics...whatever. System Administrators, academics, people involved in networking and system sales are probably far more interested in the merits of FreeBSD. > > QUESTION > Do other BSDaemons think this idea has merit? > Has it been done before? > Yeah,. Coke and Pepsi doit all the time on T.V....what is there advertising budget? Or was it Mazda and Mistubishi? I forgot. > I KNOW I WILL REGRET THIS BUT, > If there is support for this idea, I will volunteer to do it, or at > least start it, with help from others, especially those more knowledgeable > than myself. > > SUMMARY > Unlike the path with Microsoft software, Microsoft is one of the worlds greatest marketing efforts. a decision to use Linux does > not preclude somebody from moving to BSD relatively easily - or > vice-versa. > A choice in open source operating systems is a strength. It can > help both BSD and Linux. My thought is to exploit that strength, and help > people feel comfortable about choosing BSD. > > Marty Cawthon > ChipChat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 21:56:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02254 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:56:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02249 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:56:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA09214; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:56:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981005224616.042d51d0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 22:55:17 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: RMS on UDI In-Reply-To: <19981006134040.W27781@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19981005215430.042f4e90@mail.lariat.org> <199810051613.JAA03441@dingo.cdrom.com> <199810051613.JAA03441@dingo.cdrom.com> <19981006120336.M27781@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19981005215430.042f4e90@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:40 PM 10/6/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >Yup. At the AUUG, he went up the Linux (sorry, GNU Linux) stands and >looked at their wares, finally walking away from Caldera and saying >that he now knew they were evil because they put GPL and non-GPL >software on the same CD. Oy! Traif! ;-) [For those of you not versed in Jewish lore, the word "traif" is used to refer to food that is considered "unclean," and therefore unfit to eat, according to the Jewish dietary laws. One way in which food can become "traif" is if it contains certain things mixed together (e.g. meat and dairy products), or if it is "contaminated" by contact with certain forbidden foods (such as pork).] >> Guys, we gotta pull FreeBSD out of its rut, if for no other reason than >> to provide an alternative to this lunacy. > >Sorry, I don't understand. > >Greg Linux is accumulating a groundswell of support that FreeBSD isn't. WHENEVER I hear of a company developing a product for Linux and ask, "What about FreeBSD?" they seem to say, "Free-who?" In my experience, FreeBSD doesn't enjoy even the recognition that OS/2, dying ember that it is, commands. That's a rut, folks. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 22:00:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02778 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:00:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02771 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:00:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA09241; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:59:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981005225602.042f1350@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 22:57:33 -0600 To: Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Pascal for Linux won't work on FreeBSD.... Why? Cc: Mike Smith , Eivind Eklund , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810060328.UAA01982@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:28 PM 10/5/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >No idea. I can't imagine why it would be spewing that sort of stuff >out on stdout/stderr. Is this a development product, or something >that's meant to be in production? It's a beta, a few weeks away from release as version 1.0. >Have you tried ktracing it and running linux_kdump over the output? >You should be fine with the package (you can't build the port at the >moment). I'm not sure what to look for. I've written the developers but have gotten no response. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 22:14:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA04924 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:14:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles100.castles.com [208.214.165.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA04867 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:13:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00379; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810060519.WAA00379@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jerry Hicks cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Oct 1998 00:03:26 EDT." <199810060403.AAA01636@remote.my.domain> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 22:19:07 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So what is the attitude around FreeBSD toward UDI? Not the concept, which > nearly everyone agrees is a Good Thing, but this particular set of proposals > from SCO, Intel, et al. It has potential as a future thing. > I'm more than a little paranoid about I20 and suspicious of UDI too... I2O is a very different animal. I2O is a completely closed, proprietary architecture developed basically for Windows NT by a pile of hardware vendors. UDI is a completely open driver architecture co-developed by a large number of software vendors. They have a strong interest in seeing it stay open. The only possible reason for drawing a parallel between I2O and UDI is to cast FUD upon the latter. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 23:19:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13835 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:19:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13825 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:19:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23291; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:19:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19981005231918.A23265@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:19:18 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jason C. Wells" , The Classiest Man Alive Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Finding FreeBSD Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 06:48:00PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 06:48:00PM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Excellent topic! > > Anyone looking for FreeBSD in Seattle area can find it at: > > University of Washington Bookstore > The Elliot Bay Bookstore > > They have (at last glance) the Book/CDROM bundles on the shelf and can > order any of the unbundled items. The Retail page (http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html) list the retail outlets that carry FreeBSD. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Oct 5 23:21:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA14317 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA14306 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:21:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23310; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:21:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19981005232113.B23265@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:21:13 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: The Classiest Man Alive , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Finding FreeBSD Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from The Classiest Man Alive on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 03:06:33PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 03:06:33PM -0400, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > As a friendly note to all FreeBSD users in the Greater Boston area, I've > found that FreeBSD CD-ROMs can be purchased at the Coop in Harvard Square. > (Good luck finding the software in the three-store maze.) As of this > writing, the software is current (version 2.2.7) and they have version of > Greg Lehey's "The Complete FreeBSD" with 2.2.7 CD-ROMs as well. > > If you want the CD-ROMs only, they can be purchased on the cheap at the > Micro Center on Memorial Drive in Cambridge. > > Quantum Books in Kendall Square, Cambridge, will also special order any > books or CD-ROMs, including the FreeBSD series. The FreeBSD Retail page (http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html) also lists Softpro (http://www.softpro.com) in Burlington. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 00:44:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24043 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:44:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23995 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:43:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA17315; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:43:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass cc: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 22:55:17 MDT." <4.1.19981005224616.042d51d0@mail.lariat.org> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 00:43:33 -0700 Message-ID: <17310.907659813@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Linux is accumulating a groundswell of support that FreeBSD isn't. WHENEVER > I hear of a company developing a product for Linux and ask, "What about > FreeBSD?" they seem to say, "Free-who?" In my experience, FreeBSD doesn't > enjoy even the recognition that OS/2, dying ember that it is, commands. > > That's a rut, folks. Sigh. I evidently just don't know how to communicate the message I've been trying to get across over these last 4 or 5 exchanges, but I'll try just one more time, this time with as much of a rein on my emotions as I can manage and an honest desire to see an end to this kind of destructive spiral rather than get into yet another cycle of argument. Consider this message my response to both the above and a distillation of last week's fracas. I saw Brett on some TV talk show recently (Silicon somethingorother), a program on which it was quite clear that the principal object of discussion was going to be Linux and that he had better say some nice things about it (which he did) if he wanted any camera time at all. I thought that Brett balanced this quite well, and even though he might have gagged internally on some of the things he had to say in order to get the opportunity to even mention FreeBSD in the same context (which he also did), he said them and basically did what he had to do in order to get the chance to smile on TV with some suits. I thought it was a great example of advocacy done as best possible given the real-world constraints of the situation. This example also illustrates why it's been such a heated issue between Brett and I when he's then turned around and basically used an entirely different set of standards for us, essentially damning us all to hell for failing to achieve perfection in the face of some of those very same real-world constraints and attacking the works of those few allies we have rather than focusing his hostility on those who are genuinely against us. I'm quite sure Brett doesn't see it that way, but you can take it as god's honest truth that I and many other people cannot see it any other way and it's also an attack with no conceivable purpose, from where we're sitting, since being abused has never inspired and never is going to inspire us to achieve greater things than we would have tried to achieve anyway. As a "wake up call" or attempt at inspiration, it fails utterly. This is made all the more painful by the fact that Brett has frequently been a great help to us, yet during those times where Brett has flipped-over and gone on the attack, he becomes no different than RMS, Russell Nelson or Larry McVoy in my eyes and that's pretty sad since I also consider those folks "the enemy" in many respects and have to constantly watch my back, so to speak, while they're around. It's frankly not the kind of duality we need in our lives. A Brett one minute doing a really kick-ass job of advocating FreeBSD and the next minute kicking me and a lot of other hard-working people square in the nuts is not a Brett who can be trusted since it's just a bit too much like being raised by an alcoholic parent: You never know what kind of shit is going to come down on a given day, you just know that it's going to be random, unpredicable and very nasty. So, in the interests of stress-reduction and general harmony where I currently see a lot of very needless dischord, I ask only this (of everyone in this discussion): Even if you don't think they might be doing the best possible job, please avoid this kind of "friendly fire" at the various folks who contributing to FreeBSD, both commercially and privately. Just skip it. We have few enough of those kinds of people to go around as it is without making the situation any more difficult, and this kind of severely judgemental back-seat driving makes it very difficult indeed. Don't think this kind of talk doesn't get back to the source - it does and it causes only pain, NOT more rapid progress. If you (the generic you) also think you can do a better job, in any category, of promoting or "selling" freebsd to the masses then by all means please feel more than free to just dive in and start doing it. Leave all the worrying about schisms and such to the fates and focus purely on what you, personally, have gotta do. Do the right thing, as they say, and the right things will happen. If you aren't prepared to step into someone else's shoes, on the other hand, then at least do them the most basic courtesy of not spitting on them while under the misapprehension that you're inspiring them to run faster. It just does not work that way, and I can tell you this from ample personal experience. More than a little saddened and disillusioned by what has been going on lately, I thank you for listening to one last lamentation on my part about all of this. If it ends up making absolutely no difference at all, I guess I can live with that too. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 01:11:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA29066 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 01:11:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA29056 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 01:11:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA21797; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 01:11:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810060811.BAA21797@implode.root.com> To: tech@cdrom.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: new wcarchive record From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 01:11:07 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We set a new one-day download record on wcarchive yesterday (Monday). This is the first full weekday after the upgrade when this could happen...so this bodes well for the new RAID storage. Anyway, 435GB beats the old record of 432GB set last Sept. 2nd by less than 1%, but it's a new record nonetheless. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project Dual Log Stats : Oct 06 1998 -------------------------------------------------- Current Record Delta --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Bytes 435,311,816,437 435,311,816,437 New Record! Files 769,379 1,315,689 -546,310 FTP Bytes 435,311,816,437 435,311,816,437 New Record! FTP Files 769,379 1,003,879 -234,500 HTTP Bytes 58,081,249,072 -58,081,249,072 HTTP Files 567,700 -567,700 =============================================================================== Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ /3dfiles 94,948M 94,948M 0M 8,921 8,921 0 21.81 1.16 /FreeBSD 84,255M 84,255M 0M 239,102 239,102 0 19.36 31.08 /linux 64,821M 64,821M 0M 291,880 291,880 0 14.89 37.94 /planetquake 30,697M 30,697M 0M 13,187 13,187 0 7.05 1.71 /gamesdomain 28,328M 28,328M 0M 2,065 2,065 0 6.51 0.27 /simtelnet 25,104M 25,104M 0M 30,897 30,897 0 5.77 4.02 /games 22,409M 22,409M 0M 9,187 9,187 0 5.15 1.19 /idgames 21,506M 21,506M 0M 10,467 10,467 0 4.94 1.36 /idgames2 14,376M 14,376M 0M 37,467 37,467 0 3.30 4.87 /demos 13,794M 13,794M 0M 36,943 36,943 0 3.17 4.80 /3drealms 10,490M 10,490M 0M 17,822 17,822 0 2.41 2.32 /cnet 7,460M 7,460M 0M 5,658 5,658 0 1.71 0.74 /unreal 2,191M 2,191M 0M 5,280 5,280 0 0.50 0.69 /dresden 2,029M 2,029M 0M 3,227 3,227 0 0.47 0.42 /artpacks 1,721M 1,721M 0M 4,592 4,592 0 0.40 0.60 /XFree86 1,651M 1,651M 0M 9,156 9,156 0 0.38 1.19 /gutenberg 1,085M 1,085M 0M 3,099 3,099 0 0.25 0.40 /jn4 897M 897M 0M 108 108 0 0.21 0.01 /japanese 774M 774M 0M 873 873 0 0.18 0.11 /tex 663M 663M 0M 3,871 3,871 0 0.15 0.50 //ls-lR.gz 551M 551M 0M 61 61 0 0.13 0.01 /gt 537M 537M 0M 95 95 0 0.12 0.01 /languages 517M 517M 0M 6,288 6,288 0 0.12 0.82 /audio 422M 422M 0M 4,660 4,660 0 0.10 0.61 /cheats 392M 392M 0M 1,700 1,700 0 0.09 0.22 /bsd-sources 341M 341M 0M 47 47 0 0.08 0.01 /sac 327M 327M 0M 921 921 0 0.08 0.12 /novell 305M 305M 0M 1,528 1,528 0 0.07 0.20 /gnu 271M 271M 0M 287 287 0 0.06 0.04 /infozip 271M 271M 0M 1,233 1,233 0 0.06 0.16 /delphi 271M 271M 0M 5,664 5,664 0 0.06 0.74 /perl 252M 252M 0M 3,012 3,012 0 0.06 0.39 /abuse 243M 243M 0M 183 183 0 0.06 0.02 /X11 168M 168M 0M 384 384 0 0.04 0.05 /povray 143M 143M 0M 583 583 0 0.03 0.08 /os2 141M 141M 0M 671 671 0 0.03 0.09 //ls-lR 132M 132M 0M 4 4 0 0.03 0.00 /NetBSD 114M 114M 0M 339 339 0 0.03 0.04 /unixfreeware 73M 73M 0M 271 271 0 0.02 0.04 /avalon 71M 71M 0M 666 666 0 0.02 0.09 /tomahawk 64M 64M 0M 267 267 0 0.01 0.03 /beos 57M 57M 0M 216 216 0 0.01 0.03 /mozilla 53M 53M 0M 14 14 0 0.01 0.00 /garbo 46M 46M 0M 346 346 0 0.01 0.04 /java 44M 44M 0M 253 253 0 0.01 0.03 /irc 43M 43M 0M 208 208 0 0.01 0.03 /cdrom 39M 39M 0M 789 789 0 0.01 0.10 /delphideli 38M 38M 0M 312 312 0 0.01 0.04 /gus 38M 38M 0M 111 111 0 0.01 0.01 /x2ftp 35M 35M 0M 268 268 0 0.01 0.03 /security 31M 31M 0M 229 229 0 0.01 0.03 /mac 16M 16M 0M 63 63 0 0.00 0.01 /algorithms 7M 7M 0M 1,440 1,440 0 0.00 0.19 /wcarchive.jpg 5M 5M 0M 82 82 0 0.00 0.01 /hamradio 5M 5M 0M 132 132 0 0.00 0.02 /math 3M 3M 0M 100 100 0 0.00 0.01 /python 3M 3M 0M 54 54 0 0.00 0.01 /README 2M 2M 0M 438 438 0 0.00 0.06 //gmon.out 2M 2M 0M 18 18 0 0.00 0.00 /unix-c 2M 2M 0M 30 30 0 0.00 0.00 /asme 1M 1M 0M 42 42 0 0.00 0.01 /png 1M 1M 0M 18 18 0 0.00 0.00 /internet 1M 1M 0M 35 35 0 0.00 0.00 /obi 1M 1M 0M 13 13 0 0.00 0.00 //UPLOADS.TXT 779k 779k 0k 284 284 0 0.00 0.04 /wcarchive.txt 592k 592k 0k 191 191 0 0.00 0.02 /netlib 524k 524k 0k 61 61 0 0.00 0.01 /sde 452k 452k 0k 11 11 0 0.00 0.00 //README 440k 440k 0k 633 633 0 0.00 0.08 //catalog 345k 345k 0k 6 6 0 0.00 0.00 /tcl 338k 338k 0k 31 31 0 0.00 0.00 /3.0-19981003-BETA/bin 240k 240k 0k 1 1 0 0.00 0.00 /slow.txt 236k 236k 0k 167 167 0 0.00 0.02 /viseng 68k 68k 0k 16 16 0 0.00 0.00 /MacSciTech 52k 52k 0k 14 14 0 0.00 0.00 /games_patches 46k 46k 0k 28 28 0 0.00 0.00 //catalog.spa 40k 40k 0k 1 1 0 0.00 0.00 //.message 17k 17k 0k 13 13 0 0.00 0.00 /msg.toomany 15k 15k 0k 43 43 0 0.00 0.01 /mng 6k 6k 0k 1 1 0 0.00 0.00 /.message 0k 0k 0k 1 1 0 0.00 0.00 -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ 81 archives 435,311M 435,311M 0M 769,379 769,379 0 ~100.0 ~100.0 (k) = 1,000 bytes (M) = 1,000,000 bytes =============================================================================== Yesterday Average (30 days) Delta ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 769,379 718,665 50,714 Hits (HTTP) 0 0 Hits (combo) 769,379 718,665 50,714 Bytes (FTP) 435,311,816,437 385,032,479,500 50,279,336,937 Bytes (HTTP) 0 0 Bytes (combo) 435,311,816,437 385,032,479,500 50,279,336,937 Past 7 Days Past 30 Days Since 26 Feb 1997 ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 4,822,410 21,559,966 277,366,630 Hits (HTTP) 0 0 154,476,821 Hits (combo) 4,822,410 21,559,966 431,843,461 Bytes (FTP) 2,724,244,125,916 11,550,974,385,015 119,203,032,892,897 Bytes (HTTP) 0 0 10,106,100,542,342 Bytes (combo) 2,724,244,125,916 11,550,974,385,015 129,309,133,435,139 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 02:19:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA09005 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 02:19:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA08980 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 02:18:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA00420; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:18:26 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:18:26 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry Reply-To: Andrew Perry To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI In-Reply-To: <17310.907659813@time.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > More than a little saddened and disillusioned by what has been going > on lately, I thank you for listening to one last lamentation on my > part about all of this. If it ends up making absolutely no difference > at all, I guess I can live with that too. > Jordan, far be it for me to claim to be the silent majority, however I am sure that many people who, like me, do not usually contribute much to the lists will agree that you (plural) are doing a "kick-ass job" of promoting FreeBSD and getting things done. I don't like to just heap praise on you all the time and get branded as someone who never does much for FreeBSD and just sits back and uses the system, however that is pretty much what I do. (apart from the heaps of praise anyway) Rather than flood you with mail all the time saying what a great job you are doing I prefer to just stay out of the way and let you get on with it. However, rest assured that I am not alone, and a great many people (in my ignorant and biased opionion) think that you are doing GREAT THINGS. I don't like to let morale drop though and it sounds as though it is. Just because we don't instantly jump on the thread and hurl abuse doesn't mean that we don't wish it to stop. Usually hurling abuse just continues it :-) I must agree with you though. This is a volunteer effort. Don't give people who dedicate so much of their free time a hard time. enough rambling, but don't be disheartened, I believe you are doing good things and I'm not the only one. Andrew Perry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 04:07:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA25253 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 04:07:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA25230 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 04:07:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from bergelmir.ifi.uio.no (2602@bergelmir.ifi.uio.no [129.240.65.172]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id NAA05159; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:06:45 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by bergelmir.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:06:45 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Josef Karthauser Cc: Marty Cawthon , jkh@time.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New artwork for 3.0 CD cover? References: <19981005173511.I26632@pavilion.net> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 06 Oct 1998 13:06:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: Josef Karthauser's message of "Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:35:11 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id EAA25243 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Karthauser writes: > On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 10:34:00AM -0400, Marty Cawthon wrote: > > SUMMARY: > > A BSDaemon 'in motion' with 'lively eyes' and a 'personaility' > > was important in getting my attention to FreeBSD. This mascot is very > > important to 'represent and popularize' a complex product like BSD. > Where can we buy the cuddly toy? (follow the link to the "Un*x Fan Shop" and click the "Zu den Artikeln" button) DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 07:36:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA27200 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 07:36:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from out2.ibm.net (out2.ibm.net [165.87.194.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA27151 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 07:36:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@ibm.net) Received: from ibm.net (slip-32-100-79-135.ca.us.ibm.net [32.100.79.135]) by out2.ibm.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id OAA167564; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:35:51 GMT Message-ID: <361A29A5.A27A2066@ibm.net> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 07:31:01 -0700 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG CC: Garance A Drosihn , wes@softweyr.com Subject: Re: nominate your favorite enemy corporation References: <36199C97.2F2B5E96@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know, but who has time for -chat anymore? Thanks for the reminder, Wes, it was appropriate. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde [dwilde1 @ ibm.net] [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 08:17:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03917 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:17:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03895 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:17:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id BAA27330; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:17:07 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:17:07 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: anybody got gnome working? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've been having a painful time this evening trying to install Gnome. At this stage I've managed to recompile gtk 1.1.1 and glib, and am getting hurt by ORBit not compiling. I attempted to use the ORBit port, but it appears to be broken. It looks like it'll be a long night ahead... Has anyone here had success with gnome? Nick -- Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 08:20:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04616 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:20:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04604 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:20:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA12418; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:20:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981006085422.04379a10@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 08:55:45 -0600 To: Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: RMS on UDI In-Reply-To: <199810060403.AAA01636@remote.my.domain> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:03 AM 10/6/98 -0400, Jerry Hicks wrote: >So what is the attitude around FreeBSD toward UDI? Not the concept, which >nearly everyone agrees is a Good Thing, but this particular set of proposals >from SCO, Intel, et al. > >I'm more than a little paranoid about I20 and suspicious of UDI too... As well we should be. However, the UDI spec is being distributed for free, without a demand for large fees, and there really don't seem to be strings attached. It seems sort of like the AT&T ABI specs in this regard. If so, it's a Good Thing. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 08:20:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04632 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:20:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04609 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:20:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA12421; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:20:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981006085836.0424cba0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 09:19:21 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: RMS on UDI Cc: Greg Lehey , Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <17310.907659813@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:43 AM 10/6/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >This example also illustrates why it's been such a heated issue >between Brett and I when he's then turned around and basically used an >entirely different set of standards for us, I haven't "turned around" or applied any different standard to you or anyone else. I'm evaluating the market situation, and -- basically -- it sucks. Linux is getting all the press, all the third party support, all the hot new stuff. FreeBSD isn't. That's just the way it is. Sorry, Jordan, but anyone who denies this has his head buried in the sand. >essentially damning us all >to hell for failing to achieve perfection in the face of some of those >very same real-world constraints You know perfectly well that this is NOT what I'm doing. (Perhaps you're saying so because it makes it easier to deny or dismiss what I say?) I'm not "damning" everyone for failing to achieve "perfection" (as if Linux were perfect!). However, Linux's runaway success, and FreeBSD's relegation to "also-ran" status, shows that something is indeed lacking. >and attacking the works of those few allies we have I haven't attacked any of FreeBSD's allies. Again, you seem to be making this assertion as a way of dismissing what I *am* saying. >rather than focusing his hostility on those who are genuinely against us. Well, there are only two groups that are genuinely against FreeBSD. The first consists of the Linux zealots and the companies that publish versions of Linux for profit. They consistently put FreeBSD down and claim that it's worthless. I've watched them do it. What's the second? Not Microsoft, as some might think.... Microsoft has never disparaged the BSDs as it has Linux, and in fact has used BSD code in its own operating systems. The second is, alas, the group of people who bury their heads in the sand and say that the current situation -- in which Linux precludes third party software development for FreeBSD -- is somehow a good thing. Linux's popularity is NOT a rising tide that floats all boats; it's the ship that swamps the other boats with its wake. >I'm quite sure Brett doesn't see it that way, >but you can take it as god's honest truth that I and many other people >cannot see it any other way and it's also an attack with no >conceivable purpose, In other words, a serious evaluation of the situation by someone who's out there and watching the market is threatening to you, and you cannot see it as anything but an attack. >from where we're sitting, since being abused has >never inspired and never is going to inspire us to achieve greater >things than we would have tried to achieve anyway. As a "wake up >call" or attempt at inspiration, it fails utterly. Again, you seem to be "tuning out" what I say by labeling it as "abuse" rather than acting. This is a convenient form of denial, but it will make the situation worse -- not better. >This is made all >the more painful by the fact that Brett has frequently been a great >help to us, yet during those times where Brett has flipped-over and >gone on the attack, Jordan, you're only making yourself look like an ostrich with all this "attack" stuff. Crying, "Mommy, mommy, Brett's attacking me" is not particularly productive, especially since you really know (and, yes, I'm convinced you do) that I'm not attacking you; I'm reporting the status quo and sounding the alarm. >It's frankly not the kind of duality we need in our lives. A Brett >one minute doing a really kick-ass job of advocating FreeBSD and the >next minute kicking me and a lot of other hard-working people square >in the nuts is not a Brett who can be trusted since it's just a bit >too much like being raised by an alcoholic parent: You never know what >kind of shit is going to come down on a given day, you just know that >it's going to be random, unpredicable and very nasty. What I'm saying is not at all "random," Jordan, and you know it; I've been completely consistent AND upfront in everything I've said. The truth, I'm afraid, is that you don't like what the messenger is saying, so you're attempting to kill the messenger via weak attempts at character assassination like the above. What you should be doing, Jordan, is listening and acting. Denial, and personal attacks on those who dare to mention what's really going on, do not show you in a positive light. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 08:39:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08525 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:39:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch ([62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA08499 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 08:39:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 13274 invoked from network); 6 Oct 1998 15:40:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.140.1) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 6 Oct 1998 15:40:02 -0000 Message-ID: <361A39B1.D4D90010@pipeline.ch> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 17:39:29 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav" CC: Eivind Eklund , Reginald Perry , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F2FF@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> <19981005222711.23452@follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav wrote: > > Eivind Eklund writes: > > I'd guess the benchmark interpretation comes from the reviewer doing a > > wild guess on why FreeBSD was slower. > > Hear hear. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that FreeBSD lagged > behind NT as load increased simply because they didn't have a > competent FreeBSD admin tuning the box. There are a couple of things > you can do to a FreeBSD system that will make it positively scream for > Web use but aren't in the default config; the squid docs mention some > of it (e.g. tuning the number and size of mbufs) They can only tune what they know about. We should have a high-performance serving and benchmarking document like the Apache guys have. That's also the reason I asked DG about the tunings involved in wcarchive. It would be nice to collect the various tuning tip & tricks together and produce a tuning FAQ. I try to do that but my time is limited at the moment (I got sick). -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 09:38:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22239 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:38:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22195 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:38:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA18942 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:38:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Oct 1998 09:19:21 MDT." <4.1.19981006085836.0424cba0@mail.lariat.org> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 09:38:17 -0700 Message-ID: <18939.907691897@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [Brett Glass writes] > I haven't "turned around" or applied any different standard to you or > anyone else. I'm evaluating the market situation, and -- basically -- Needless to say, folks, I still think Brett is completely full of shit here but we're not going to get any further debating this in public so I've taken it offline. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 10:17:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA28831 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:17:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA28825 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:17:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id KAA48148 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:16:40 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id KAA18002 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:16:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Disclaimers In-Reply-To: <19981005152856.A16611@Denninger.Net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give >up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. Is there some sort of history behind these, "I speak only for myself" disclaimers? I have seen a few of them. Frankly, they seem odd. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 10:25:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29725 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:25:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA29670 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:24:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id KAA14976; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:24:09 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id KAA01170; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:23:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Reginald Perry cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F304@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Reginald Perry wrote: >room before network saturation! So who is going to write the author and >request a correction? Sounds like you just volunteered. :) Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 10:43:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03026 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:43:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclops.xtra.co.nz (cyclops.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03015 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 10:43:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker (210-55-210-87.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.210.87]) by cyclops.xtra.co.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id GAA15007; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:43:14 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810061743.GAA15007@cyclops.xtra.co.nz> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: "Jason C. Wells" Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:43:14 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Disclaimers Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19981005152856.A16611@Denninger.Net> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 6 Oct 98, at 10:16, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give > >up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. > > Is there some sort of history behind these, "I speak only for myself" > disclaimers? I have seen a few of them. Frankly, they seem odd. It's mostly a USA thing. Denial of liability in case you do what they say and it goes wrong. It also serves to disassociate the company from the individual comments. For example, it attempts to prevent the company from promoting line of thinking which it may not wish to promote, say if an employee goes postal over something. -- Dan Langille DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - my [mis]adventures http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 12:09:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA21846 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:09:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA21791 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:09:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id VAA25049; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:08:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:08:41 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Greg Lehey , Mike Smith , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI References: <4.1.19981006085836.0424cba0@mail.lariat.org> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 06 Oct 1998 21:08:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Tue, 06 Oct 1998 09:19:21 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 20 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id MAA21834 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 12:43 AM 10/6/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >This example also illustrates why it's been such a heated issue > >between Brett and I when he's then turned around and basically used an > >entirely different set of standards for us, > [...] > Sorry, Jordan, but anyone who denies this has his head buried in the > sand. Please, please, please stop arguing about this, at least until 3.0 is released and we can all lean back in our respective chairs and take a deep breath before getting to work on 3.1. It's not productive and from where I'm standing I can see both sides slinging mud and whatnot in roughly equal quantities. Having two prominent FreeBSD figures dogfighting over these issues is not going to help raise the grunts' morale. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 12:13:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22753 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:13:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from headache.hungry.com (headache.hungry.com [199.181.107.55]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA22733 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:12:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fn@Hungry.COM) Received: (from fn@localhost) by headache.hungry.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) id MAA19486; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:12:52 -0700 (PDT) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Java-based Crypto Decoder Ring gets NIST FIPS 140-1 certification (fwd) References: From: Faried Nawaz Date: 06 Oct 1998 12:12:51 -0700 In-Reply-To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no's message of 6 Oct 1998 04:03:57 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 6 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. Smørgrav) writes: ITYM "two X chromosomes". HTH, HAND! Technically, there are people with XX, XY, X (Turner's Syndrome), XYY, and XXY (Kleinfelter's Syndrome) chromosomes... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 12:16:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA23567 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:16:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23560 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:16:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id MAA25534; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id MAA14130; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:15:01 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id NAA25885; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:15:00 -0600 Message-ID: <361A6C34.4AD93BAE@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 13:15:00 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass CC: Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI References: <4.1.19981006085422.04379a10@mail.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 12:03 AM 10/6/98 -0400, Jerry Hicks wrote: > > >So what is the attitude around FreeBSD toward UDI? Not the concept, which > >nearly everyone agrees is a Good Thing, but this particular set of proposals > >from SCO, Intel, et al. > > > >I'm more than a little paranoid about I20 and suspicious of UDI too... > > As well we should be. However, the UDI spec is being distributed for free, > without a demand for large fees, and there really don't seem to be strings > attached. It seems sort of like the AT&T ABI specs in this regard. If so, > it's a Good Thing. If anything, it seems more like UDI is a plot created by SCO to get us "Open Source" developers to write device drivers for THEM. I personally have NO feelings whatsoever about this; anyone silly enough to use SCO when FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and Linux will ALL run on the same hardware deserve what they get. I share Brett's (and RMS' -- imagine THEM agreeing on something!) reservations about Intel's motivation in this. I think most contributors to the free software community feel that commercial organizations should not benefit from free software unless they give something back. If, however, this encourages Intel or any other hardware company to be more open with specifications and other documentation required to write drivers, they WILL be giving something back. If Intel undertakes to develope UDI drivers for the various hardware products they produce, this will benefit FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, SCO, Sun, and anyone else who uses UDI drivers. It'll be interesting to see if Microsoft tries to horn in on this and sway the UDI spec into agreeing with NT as well. There's somebody to be leery of, brothers and sisters. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 12:36:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26584 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:36:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26571 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:36:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00782; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 12:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810061938.MAA00782@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Wes Peters cc: Brett Glass , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Oct 1998 13:15:00 MDT." <361A6C34.4AD93BAE@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 12:38:10 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I share Brett's (and RMS' -- imagine THEM agreeing on something!) > reservations about Intel's motivation in this. I think most contributors > to the free software community feel that commercial organizations should > not benefit from free software unless they give something back. If, > however, this encourages Intel or any other hardware company to be more > open with specifications and other documentation required to write drivers, > they WILL be giving something back. If Intel undertakes to develope UDI > drivers for the various hardware products they produce, this will benefit > FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, SCO, Sun, and anyone else who uses UDI > drivers. Actually, Intel approached the UDI folks and said "we think that UDI on Linux would be a good thing", and offered the resources to do the development work. This is definitely giving up front. The other UDI partners were quietly developing UDI for their own mutual benefit before this; they were attempting to make life easier for vendors of hardware for their environments (eg. Adaptec, Interphase, &c.) to do driver development. Their goal was never to attempt to seduce the free software community, just to reduce their own costs by sharing technology in an admirably bullshit-free fashion. > It'll be interesting to see if Microsoft tries to horn in on this and sway > the UDI spec into agreeing with NT as well. There's somebody to be leery > of, brothers and sisters. I haven't heard anything about this yet. I suspect the UDI camp would be playing it fairly quiet. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 13:21:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08129 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:21:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08118 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA15512; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:20:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981006141546.0430a1d0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 14:19:47 -0600 To: Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: RMS on UDI Cc: Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <361A6C34.4AD93BAE@softweyr.com> References: <4.1.19981006085422.04379a10@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:15 PM 10/6/98 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >I share Brett's (and RMS' -- imagine THEM agreeing on something!) >reservations about Intel's motivation in this. Given what I now know about UDI, I don't have many reservations. It looks like an open spec, akin to the AT&T ABIs. RMS, however, thinks the whole CONCEPT of sharing drivers with non-open-source OSes is heresy. Especially if -- heaven forbid! -- the manufacturer doesn't supply source. >It'll be interesting to see if Microsoft tries to horn in on this and sway >the UDI spec into agreeing with NT as well. There's somebody to be leery >of, brothers and sisters. Well, Microsoft drivers by nature are very different. They'd have to build software "shims" which would slow the UDI drivers down. And you'd still need special ".INF" files, etc. So, I think Microsoft will just put more pressure on the hardware vendors to make their hardware Microsoft-specific. They've already been successful with many modems, scanners, and printers. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 13:29:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA09910 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:29:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA09885 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:29:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20253; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:28:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass cc: Wes Peters , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Oct 1998 14:19:47 MDT." <4.1.19981006141546.0430a1d0@mail.lariat.org> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 13:28:55 -0700 Message-ID: <20249.907705735@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > RMS, however, thinks the whole CONCEPT of sharing drivers with > non-open-source OSes is heresy. Especially if -- heaven forbid! -- > the manufacturer doesn't supply source. The foolishness of such an attitude transcends even that. In RMS's world, for example, it would be preferable to go out and buy some piece of new hardware (say a camera or scanner with some custom interface) and have only Windows and possibly Macintosh support on the floppies provided with the kit, just as things are now. The user's best interests are sacrificed on the altar of RMS's vision of a perfect world where things are either done "correctly" or not at all. -Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 13:44:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13753 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13685 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:44:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA15729; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:44:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981006144211.042df4b0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 14:42:44 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: RMS on UDI Cc: Wes Peters , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <20249.907705735@time.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You mean -- gasp! -- we AGREE on something? ;-) --Brett At 01:28 PM 10/6/98 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> RMS, however, thinks the whole CONCEPT of sharing drivers with >> non-open-source OSes is heresy. Especially if -- heaven forbid! -- >> the manufacturer doesn't supply source. > >The foolishness of such an attitude transcends even that. In RMS's >world, for example, it would be preferable to go out and buy some >piece of new hardware (say a camera or scanner with some custom >interface) and have only Windows and possibly Macintosh support on the >floppies provided with the kit, just as things are now. The user's >best interests are sacrificed on the altar of RMS's vision of a perfect >world where things are either done "correctly" or not at all. > >-Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 16:08:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22713 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:08:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22663 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:07:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA27864; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:07:36 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA13466; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:07:34 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19981007010733.53798@follo.net> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:07:33 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Jason C. Wells" , Reginald Perry Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F304@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 10:23:57AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 10:23:57AM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Reginald Perry wrote: > > >room before network saturation! So who is going to write the author and > >request a correction? > > Sounds like you just volunteered. :) I have already mailed quite a bit back and forth with him, and we're trying to track down if something could be done to better the results. It averaged out around 27Mb/s, which I think sound a little low (but that might be wrong). My present suspicion is atime updates; it seems the server was not configured noatime, which seem like it would strange the disk with synchronous write requests. That would be reasonably consistent with the numbers. However, it may also be that the test is fair - IIS has done a lot to optimize this, including (if I understand correctly) NT kernel support just to serve static pages faster. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 16:12:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23503 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:12:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23439 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:11:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA27915; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:11:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA13498; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:11:32 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19981007011131.32248@follo.net> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:11:31 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: "Jason C. Wells" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Disclaimers References: <19981005152856.A16611@Denninger.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 10:16:28AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 10:16:28AM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >I ain't even *authorized* to speak for anyone other than myself, so give > >up now on trying to associate my words with any particular organization. > > Is there some sort of history behind these, "I speak only for myself" > disclaimers? I have seen a few of them. Frankly, they seem odd. A combination of the american liability laws and the general unpleasantness of being taken to talk for somebody when you don't. Historically, it goes back to early USENET days, I think. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 16:18:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24968 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:18:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mrmell (ppp5723.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.198.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24899 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:18:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: (from tim@localhost) by mrmell (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA28853; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:21:26 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19981006192122.A28765@mrmell> Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:21:22 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Frank Pawlak , Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement References: <23307.907176696@time.cdrom.com> <36127E46.C50BA0DF@softweyr.com> <4.1.19981002190913.040f3b60@mail.lariat.org> <19981002220715.B11661@execpc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981002220715.B11661@execpc.com>; from Frank Pawlak on Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 10:07:15PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Oct 02, 1998 at 10:07:15PM -0500, Frank Pawlak wrote: > > > > History has proven exactly the opposite. The introduction of Windows > > application support in OS/2 actually accelerated its demise. If FreeBSD > > starts billing itself as "a better Linux than Linux" it will fall into > > precisely the same trap and will never catch up. > > Bingo!! I almost thought you guys were serious for a second. Then I remembered that the second question the last person I converted to FreeBSD(*) asked was "Do you have Linux emulation?". Folks... Free software is not a zero-sum game. Commercially-driven, by comparison, is. If Linux emulation lets FreeBSD serve its (_its_) users better, if Linux emulation makes FreeBSD a better citizen in the grand opera of operating systems, then it is my opinion that FreeBSD should stand-up and take this opportunity and even responsibility. I don't think most FreeBSD developers would want anything less. They are, after-all, not here to make IBM's shareholders a profit. (*) Actually, he's decided to wait a couple weeks for 3.0 since he needs a CAM-only device. -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 16:27:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26711 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:27:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dt053nb4.san.rr.com (dt053nb4.san.rr.com [204.210.34.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26665 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:26:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Received: from dal.net (Studded@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dt053nb4.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24167; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:26:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@dal.net) Message-ID: <361AA730.5A2A2FEA@dal.net> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 16:26:40 -0700 From: Studded Organization: Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE-0929 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters CC: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI References: <4.1.19981006085422.04379a10@mail.lariat.org> <361A6C34.4AD93BAE@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters wrote: > If anything, it seems more like UDI is a plot created by SCO to get us > "Open Source" developers to write device drivers for THEM. I was starting to wonder if I was the only one who thought this way. Although if it turns out to be even partly as good as it looks on paper I think it will be a win for everyone. Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** Go PADRES! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 19:00:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00670 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:00:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA00638 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 19:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA24963; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:30:06 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA04487; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:30:04 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981007113003.G27781@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:30:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , Brett Glass Cc: Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: RMS on UDI References: <4.1.19981006085422.04379a10@mail.lariat.org> <361A6C34.4AD93BAE@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <361A6C34.4AD93BAE@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 01:15:00PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 6 October 1998 at 13:15:00 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: >> >> At 12:03 AM 10/6/98 -0400, Jerry Hicks wrote: >> >>> So what is the attitude around FreeBSD toward UDI? Not the concept, which >>> nearly everyone agrees is a Good Thing, but this particular set of proposals >>> from SCO, Intel, et al. >>> >>> I'm more than a little paranoid about I20 and suspicious of UDI too... >> >> As well we should be. However, the UDI spec is being distributed for free, >> without a demand for large fees, and there really don't seem to be strings >> attached. It seems sort of like the AT&T ABI specs in this regard. If so, >> it's a Good Thing. > > If anything, it seems more like UDI is a plot created by SCO to get us > "Open Source" developers to write device drivers for THEM. > > I personally have NO feelings whatsoever about this; anyone silly enough to > use SCO when FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and Linux will ALL run on the same > hardware deserve what they get. > > I share Brett's (and RMS' -- imagine THEM agreeing on something!) > reservations about Intel's motivation in this. I think most contributors > to the free software community feel that commercial organizations should > not benefit from free software unless they give something back. Well, that's simple: put it under the GPL and they can't. This is really an argument against the Berkeley licence. > If, however, this encourages Intel or any other hardware company to > be more open with specifications and other documentation required to > write drivers, they WILL be giving something back. If Intel > undertakes to develope UDI drivers for the various hardware products > they produce, this will benefit FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, > SCO, Sun, and anyone else who uses UDI drivers. Precisely. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 20:55:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA25480 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:55:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA25443 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:55:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA19366; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 21:54:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981006213950.0432ab40@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 21:45:01 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , Wes Peters From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: RMS on UDI Cc: Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <19981007113003.G27781@freebie.lemis.com> References: <361A6C34.4AD93BAE@softweyr.com> <4.1.19981006085422.04379a10@mail.lariat.org> <361A6C34.4AD93BAE@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:30 AM 10/7/98 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> I share Brett's (and RMS' -- imagine THEM agreeing on something!) >> reservations about Intel's motivation in this. I think most contributors >> to the free software community feel that commercial organizations should >> not benefit from free software unless they give something back. > >Well, that's simple: put it under the GPL and they can't. This is >really an argument against the Berkeley licence. The Berkeley license is much better for drivers. Why? Because it lets hardware vendors derive their drivers from time-tested existing ones, even if they DON'T open the source. This increases the chances that devices will work and work well. >> If, however, this encourages Intel or any other hardware company to >> be more open with specifications and other documentation required to >> write drivers, they WILL be giving something back. If Intel >> undertakes to develope UDI drivers for the various hardware products >> they produce, this will benefit FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Linux, >> SCO, Sun, and anyone else who uses UDI drivers. > >Precisely. Agree. The interchangeability of the drivers is already a great step forward. Let's not scare the hardware vendors away from the idea by making them reveal their source. Many manufacturers believe that their drivers are key to their performance advantage, and/or reveal what they're doing in hardware to speed things up, so this is quite important. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Oct 6 23:02:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA16492 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:02:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk ([194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16302 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:02:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA07425; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:28:23 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <361A4539.70547242@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 17:28:41 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: http://ints.ml.org/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hallam Oaks P/L list account CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Win95/NT drivers on FreeBSD? References: <199809301547.BAA25615@mail.aussie.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hallam Oaks P/L list account wrote: > > >supported WinNT (and some Win98) device drivers, as shipped by the OEM. > >Why WinNT and not Win95? Because WinNT drivers are more like Unix device > >drivers. They have well defined interfaces to the O/S, and are _not_ > > It would be within the realms of possibility to write support code that made > an NT driver think it was running under an NT kernel within FreeBSD. Would it not be easier to do this with SCO drivers than NT ones? It would be somewhat easier to configure a driver designed for some kind of unix than an NT driver that likely relies on a control panel applet or similar... also presumably more of the emulation code already works :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 00:21:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA00885 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:21:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00626 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:20:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04994; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:19:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19981007001940.A4978@mooseriver.com> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:19:40 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Headcount for BAFUG meeting Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday, October 8th, Noon it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 00:56:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06997 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:56:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclops.xtra.co.nz (cyclops.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06987 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:56:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker (210-55-210-87.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.210.87]) by cyclops.xtra.co.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA21331; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:55:24 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810070755.UAA21331@cyclops.xtra.co.nz> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Josef Grosch Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:55:24 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Headcount for BAFUG meeting Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19981007001940.A4978@mooseriver.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 7 Oct 98, at 0:19, Josef Grosch wrote: > Heads up! > > > I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays > meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee > to get. If you could respond by Thursday, October 8th, Noon it would be > very helpful. > > Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Pizza and soda? Yum! I'd love to. [sorry, could not resist] -- Dan Langille DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - my [mis]adventures http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 04:15:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA03942 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 04:15:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA03937 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 04:15:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id HAA10390; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:09:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199810071109.HAA10390@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Disclaimers In-Reply-To: <19981007011131.32248@follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Oct 7, 98 01:11:31 am" To: eivind@yes.no (Eivind Eklund) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:09:10 -0400 (EDT) Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > A combination of the american liability laws and the general > unpleasantness of being taken to talk for somebody when you don't. > > Historically, it goes back to early USENET days, I think. Liability laws now-a-days, maybe. I believe it is because historically people posted from company accounts. They used to mostly say "I don't speak for Big Co". Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 05:57:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA13197 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 05:57:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA13192 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 05:57:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id FAA10817; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 05:56:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810071256.FAA10817@implode.root.com> To: tech@cdrom.com cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: wcarchive picture From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 05:56:18 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 9524 copies of my new picture of wcarchive were downloaded yesterday from wcarchive. If I had known it would be so popular, I would have had a professional photographer take it with a professional camera. :-) -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 06:52:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22273 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:52:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles29.castles.com [208.214.165.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA22152 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:51:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA03135; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:56:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810071356.GAA03135@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dg@root.com cc: tech@cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive picture In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Oct 1998 05:56:18 PDT." <199810071256.FAA10817@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 06:56:44 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > 9524 copies of my new picture of wcarchive were downloaded yesterday > from wcarchive. If I had known it would be so popular, I would have had a > professional photographer take it with a professional camera. :-) Heh. You got /.-ed it seems. Sorry about that. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 06:56:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA23045 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:56:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA23032 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 06:56:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@mail.HiWAAY.net) Received: (from dkelly@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) id IAA15709; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:56:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:56:20 -0500 (CDT) From: David Kelly Message-Id: <199810071356.IAA15709@mail.HiWAAY.net> To: dg@root.com, tech@cdrom.com Subject: Re: wcarchive picture Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > 9524 copies of my new picture of wcarchive were downloaded yesterday > from wcarchive. If I had known it would be so popular, I would have had a > professional photographer take it with a professional camera. :-) Aw heck! I missed the first announcement and now can't find the picture else I'd up the count to 9525. :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net (hm) ====================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 07:04:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24482 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:04:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA24459 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:04:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA12020; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810071404.HAA12020@implode.root.com> To: David Kelly cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive picture In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Oct 1998 08:56:20 CDT." <199810071356.IAA15709@mail.HiWAAY.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 07:04:00 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> 9524 copies of my new picture of wcarchive were downloaded yesterday >> from wcarchive. If I had known it would be so popular, I would have had a >> professional photographer take it with a professional camera. :-) > >Aw heck! I missed the first announcement and now can't find the picture >else I'd up the count to 9525. :-) ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.jpg -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 07:07:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA24962 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:07:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA24936 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:07:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA12044; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:06:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810071406.HAA12044@implode.root.com> To: Mike Smith cc: tech@cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive picture In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Oct 1998 06:56:44 PDT." <199810071356.GAA03135@dingo.cdrom.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 07:06:31 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> 9524 copies of my new picture of wcarchive were downloaded yesterday >> from wcarchive. If I had known it would be so popular, I would have had a >> professional photographer take it with a professional camera. :-) > >Heh. You got /.-ed it seems. Sorry about that. 8) It only amounted to 829MB of traffic - less than .2% of the total for the day. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 07:26:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29365 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:26:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch ([62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA29357 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:26:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 14521 invoked from network); 7 Oct 1998 14:27:02 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.140.4) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 7 Oct 1998 14:27:02 -0000 Message-ID: <361B7A1C.F8B63AB7@pipeline.ch> Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 16:26:36 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: tech@cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive picture References: <199810071256.FAA10817@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman wrote: > > 9524 copies of my new picture of wcarchive were downloaded yesterday > from wcarchive. If I had known it would be so popular, I would have had a > professional photographer take it with a professional camera. :-) Great, but where do I find it? -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 08:22:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09675 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA09661 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:22:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id LAA23898; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:22:08 -0400 Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:22:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: David Greenman cc: tech@cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive picture In-Reply-To: <199810071256.FAA10817@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, David Greenman wrote: > 9524 copies of my new picture of wcarchive were downloaded yesterday > from wcarchive. If I had known it would be so popular, I would have had a > professional photographer take it with a professional camera. :-) There's a link to it from slashdot, which may account for the heavy traffic. Jamie Bowden -- Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 11:01:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11602 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:01:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11581 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:01:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id LAA19514 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:00:55 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id LAA31699 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:00:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive picture In-Reply-To: <199810071256.FAA10817@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, David Greenman wrote: > 9524 copies of my new picture of wcarchive were downloaded yesterday >from wcarchive. If I had known it would be so popular, I would have had a I would like to see a picture of the awesome 40 server array that MS uses next to this dimunitive and unassuming rack. ::Picture a TV ad:: Joe Suit - "What's all of this?" DG - "Oh, that's an NT server farm. There are forty machines there. They can handle 300 Gig in a day." Joe Suit - "Impressive... Hey, who's that little guy over there." DG - "That's our FreeBSD box. It pulled a 415 gig load in one day." Joe Suit - "With just one server?" DG - "Just one. But that was before the upgrade." Joe Suit - "Impressive... Really impressive." Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 11:25:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16372 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:25:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA16351 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:25:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA26518 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:24:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:24:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just got this from another list, but it's so outrageous, I had to post it here (it certainly applies to us!) Apparently, Microsoft has patented array indexing! Take a look, it seems real! ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (NetBSD). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:02:50 +0200 (MET DST) From: David Stes Reply-To: objc-users@peti.gmd.de To: objc-users@peti.gmd.de Subject: Microsoft has a patent on [] It looks like we're in trouble with the use of [] in Objective-C. >From http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5742828 : INTL. CLASS (Ed. 6): G06F 009/45; U.S. CLASS: 395/708 FIELD OF SEARCH: 395-700,701,702,705,707,708 ; ABSTRACT: Source code including application defined expressions and non-conforming identifiers are compiled to executable code. The source code is written with an application defined expression or non-conforming identifier enclosed between a predefined pair of matching separators, such as square brackets. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Portable Object Compiler Users Mailinglist To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 11:52:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22535 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:52:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22517 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:52:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01683; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:57:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810071857.LAA01683@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Chuck Robey cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Oct 1998 14:24:23 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 11:57:23 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I just got this from another list, but it's so outrageous, I had to post > it here (it certainly applies to us!) Apparently, Microsoft has > patented array indexing! > > Take a look, it seems real! It's real, but it involves taking a character string between separators (eg. []) and passing it to a run-time evaluator contained in a library. I can't see this impacting [] in general use, and the date on the application means that Tcl is probably applicable as "prior art", as this is how it handles command substitution. Looks like another bogus software patent to me. > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data > chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. > 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | > Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic (FreeBSD-current) > (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (NetBSD). > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:02:50 +0200 (MET DST) > From: David Stes > Reply-To: objc-users@peti.gmd.de > To: objc-users@peti.gmd.de > Subject: Microsoft has a patent on [] > > > It looks like we're in trouble with the use of [] in Objective-C. > > >From http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?patent_number=5742828 : > > INTL. CLASS (Ed. 6): > G06F 009/45; > U.S. CLASS: > 395/708 > FIELD OF SEARCH: > 395-700,701,702,705,707,708 ; > > ABSTRACT: Source code including application defined expressions and > non-conforming identifiers are compiled to executable code. The source > code is written with an application defined expression or non-conforming > identifier enclosed between a predefined pair of matching separators, such > as square brackets. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Portable Object Compiler Users Mailinglist > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 12:14:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26222 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:14:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26175 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:13:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from perry@zso.dec.com) Received: from rust.zso.dec.com (rust.zso.dec.com [16.64.0.1]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0h) with SMTP id PAA00400; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:13:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.zso.dec.com by rust.zso.dec.com (5.65/DECwest-CLUSTRIX-mwd-12Dec94) id AA01176; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:13:35 -0700 From: perry@zso.dec.com (Reginald Perry) To: "'Eivind Eklund'" , "'Jason C. Wells'" Cc: Subject: RE: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:10:45 -0700 Message-Id: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F30D@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD06BCE9@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So are you saying that you dont think that the network was saturated? -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Eivind Eklund Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 1998 4:08 PM To: Jason C. Wells; Reginald Perry Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD On Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 10:23:57AM -0700, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Reginald Perry wrote: > > >room before network saturation! So who is going to write the author and > >request a correction? > > Sounds like you just volunteered. :) I have already mailed quite a bit back and forth with him, and we're trying to track down if something could be done to better the results. It averaged out around 27Mb/s, which I think sound a little low (but that might be wrong). My present suspicion is atime updates; it seems the server was not configured noatime, which seem like it would strange the disk with synchronous write requests. That would be reasonably consistent with the numbers. However, it may also be that the test is fair - IIS has done a lot to optimize this, including (if I understand correctly) NT kernel support just to serve static pages faster. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 12:14:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26385 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:14:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26362 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:14:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA25201; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:13:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981007131127.041747f0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 13:12:45 -0600 To: Mike Smith , Chuck Robey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) Cc: FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810071857.LAA01683@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:57 AM 10/7/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >> I just got this from another list, but it's so outrageous, I had to post >> it here (it certainly applies to us!) Apparently, Microsoft has >> patented array indexing! >> >> Take a look, it seems real! > >It's real, but it involves taking a character string between separators >(eg. []) and passing it to a run-time evaluator contained in a library. Not quite. What it means is that there's late binding. In other words, any INTERPRETER that can take an expression as an array subscript is covered. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 12:24:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA28219 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:24:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rdc.cl (mailnet.rdc.cl [200.27.2.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28143 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gollum@rdc.cl) Received: from wingate (gollum@[200.27.4.173]) by rdc.cl (8.8.8/8.8.5-obm-seg) with SMTP id QAA20481 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:24:54 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981007192019.00799a70@rdc.cl> X-Sender: gollum@rdc.cl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 19:20:19 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Anders Subject: Re: wcarchive picture In-Reply-To: References: <199810071256.FAA10817@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:00 AM 10/7/98 -0700, you wrote: >On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, David Greenman wrote: > >> 9524 copies of my new picture of wcarchive were downloaded yesterday >>from wcarchive. If I had known it would be so popular, I would have had a > Ahhhhh....such beauty... (*sigh*) :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 12:54:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04902 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:54:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04846 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:53:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA26679; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:52:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:52:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981007131127.041747f0@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:57 AM 10/7/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > >> I just got this from another list, but it's so outrageous, I had to post > >> it here (it certainly applies to us!) Apparently, Microsoft has > >> patented array indexing! > >> > >> Take a look, it seems real! > > > >It's real, but it involves taking a character string between separators > >(eg. []) and passing it to a run-time evaluator contained in a library. > > Not quite. What it means is that there's late binding. In other words, > any INTERPRETER that can take an expression as an array subscript is covered. So that includes awk, perl, tcl, .... and almost anything constructive I might want to do with the [] operator in C++. This is then just another example of software-patent insanity. The only thing that gets me is that the damn thing is dated 1998. I'd thought maybe the patent office was through making themselves look like low-grade idiots. OK, I'll stop, I just had to post (it riled me up). > > --Brett Glass > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run Journey2 and picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (NetBSD). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 13:06:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA08540 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:06:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08453 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:05:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id WAA17714; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:05:28 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:05:27 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Mike Smith , Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) References: <4.1.19981007131127.041747f0@mail.lariat.org> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 07 Oct 1998 22:05:27 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Wed, 07 Oct 1998 13:12:45 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id NAA08494 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 11:57 AM 10/7/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > It's real, but it involves taking a character string between separators > > (eg. []) and passing it to a run-time evaluator contained in a library. > Not quite. What it means is that there's late binding. In other words, > any INTERPRETER that can take an expression as an array subscript is covered. So, how old is awk, anyway? twenty years? twenty-five? DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 13:15:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10757 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10733 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA25823; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:15:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981007140512.0405ad00@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 14:08:13 -0600 To: Chuck Robey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) Cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19981007131127.041747f0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:52 PM 10/7/98 -0400, Chuck Robey wrote: >So that includes awk, perl, tcl, .... and almost anything constructive I >might want to do with the [] operator in C++. It wouldn't include C++, but would include Perl, SNOBOL, BASIC, LISP.... In fact, it includes anything with late binding of function names, so that you can define a function during execution and then use its return value to subscript an array. >This is then just another example of software-patent insanity. The only >thing that gets me is that the damn thing is dated 1998. The insanity isn't confined to software patents. The Patent Office issues all kinds of ludicrous patents every year. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 13:39:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17308 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:39:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17269 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:38:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02254; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:42:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810072042.NAA02254@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Smith , Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Oct 1998 13:12:45 MDT." <4.1.19981007131127.041747f0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 13:42:08 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 11:57 AM 10/7/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > >> I just got this from another list, but it's so outrageous, I had to post > >> it here (it certainly applies to us!) Apparently, Microsoft has > >> patented array indexing! > >> > >> Take a look, it seems real! > > > >It's real, but it involves taking a character string between separators > >(eg. []) and passing it to a run-time evaluator contained in a library. > > Not quite. What it means is that there's late binding. In other words, > any INTERPRETER that can take an expression as an array subscript is covered. You should read the definition: 1 providing a library associated with the application program, the library defining an evaluator for evaluating expressions according to the second syntax. 2 compiling the source code according to the first syntax into object code for executing on a computer. 3 interpreting a syntax structure in the source code consisting of a character string enclosed between a predefined pair of separators as an application-defined expression 4 converting said syntax structure to coded instructions in the object code (consisting) of a function call for invoking the evaluator with the character string as a parameter whereby the evaluator is invoked to evaluate the character string according to the second syntax on execution of the object code. Interpreters are specifically excluded (they don't produce object code). It's arguable whether a JIT bytecoder intrudes on enough of this to be covered. It seems to be a patent on a hack for handling associative arrays whereby you pretend that the language itself supports them. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 13:43:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA18433 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:43:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18403 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:43:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA26087; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:42:58 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981007144036.00c00ad0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 14:41:47 -0600 To: Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) Cc: Mike Smith , Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810072042.NAA02254@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:42 PM 10/7/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >Interpreters are specifically excluded (they don't produce object >code). Many interpreted languages compile to object code for a virtual machine and then interpret from there. Perl is the most popular example. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 13:50:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19948 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:50:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch ([62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA19874 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:50:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 14815 invoked from network); 7 Oct 1998 20:50:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.140.4) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 7 Oct 1998 20:50:11 -0000 Message-ID: <361BD3ED.2CADC2C4@pipeline.ch> Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:49:49 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Smith CC: Brett Glass , Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) References: <199810072042.NAA02254@dingo.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Smith wrote: -snip- > You should read the definition: > > 1 providing a library associated with the application program, the > library defining an evaluator for evaluating expressions according > to the second syntax. > 2 compiling the source code according to the first syntax into object > code for executing on a computer. > 3 interpreting a syntax structure in the source code consisting of a > character string enclosed between a predefined pair of separators > as an application-defined expression > 4 converting said syntax structure to coded instructions in the object > code (consisting) of a function call for invoking the evaluator > with the character string as a parameter whereby the evaluator is > invoked to evaluate the character string according to the second > syntax on execution of the object code. > > Interpreters are specifically excluded (they don't produce object > code). It's arguable whether a JIT bytecoder intrudes on enough of > this to be covered. > > It seems to be a patent on a hack for handling associative arrays > whereby you pretend that the language itself supports them. That sounds for me like VisualBasic... -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 13:55:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20863 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:55:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20858 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:55:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA02414; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:59:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810072059.NAA02414@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Smith , Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Oct 1998 14:41:47 MDT." <4.1.19981007144036.00c00ad0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 13:59:10 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 01:42 PM 10/7/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > >Interpreters are specifically excluded (they don't produce object > >code). > > Many interpreted languages compile to object code for a virtual > machine and then interpret from there. Perl is the most popular > example. You feel like responding to the next sentence, where I pointed this out? > > Interpreters are specifically excluded (they don't produce object > > code). It's arguable whether a JIT bytecoder intrudes on enough of > > this to be covered. "bytecode" is a generic term for just that, as is P-code, etc. Most popular interpreters these days (Perl, Tcl, Java, etc.) are either JIT- or pre-bytecoders. As I said, it's arguable as to whether this is covered or not. If it is, then there are literally decades of prior art, and if not, then it's really only applicable to someone trying to produce a compiler/support library that turns any scripting language with associative arrays into real object code. Since people have been doing the latter since before 1994 when the patent application was filed, I think we can fairly safely consider this patent manifest but bogus. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 14:01:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21853 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:01:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21846 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:01:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id OAA08295 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:01:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:01:39 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Apachecon anyone? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello, Who is going to be at Apache conference (www.apachecon.com) next week? I am giving a talk, but don't know many people there myself - feels kind of awkward. -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 14:05:07 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22396 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:05:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22369 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:05:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA26297; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:04:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981007150153.0403d560@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 15:02:49 -0600 To: Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) Cc: Mike Smith , Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810072059.NAA02414@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:59 PM 10/7/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >> > Interpreters are specifically excluded (they don't produce object >> > code). It's arguable whether a JIT bytecoder intrudes on enough of >> > this to be covered. > >"bytecode" is a generic term for just that, as is P-code, etc. Most >popular interpreters these days (Perl, Tcl, Java, etc.) are either JIT- >or pre-bytecoders. As I said, it's arguable as to whether this is >covered or not. Microsoft's only product that does this is VB, which is what the patent was intended to cover. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 14:05:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22404 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:05:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA22379 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:05:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA26292; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:04:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981007145657.04032220@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 15:01:26 -0600 To: Andre Oppermann , Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) Cc: Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <361BD3ED.2CADC2C4@pipeline.ch> References: <199810072042.NAA02254@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:49 PM 10/7/98 +0200, Andre Oppermann wrote: >That sounds for me like VisualBasic... Which operates EXACTLY the same way as Perl, Lahey FORTRAN, MicroFocus COBOL, Java, many SNOBOL implementations, and the UCSD P-System (little used nowadays because the vendor that licensed it from the University of California has made the suicidal move of charging runtime royalties on programs compiled with it). Since the patent is clearly meant to apply to VB, it applies to all of these other languages too. In fact, it applies to ANYTHING that tokenizes and/or compiles to an intermediate code prior to runtime. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 14:17:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA24732 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:17:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA24725 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:17:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02625; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:21:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810072121.OAA02625@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Smith , Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Oct 1998 15:02:49 MDT." <4.1.19981007150153.0403d560@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 14:21:01 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 01:59 PM 10/7/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: > > >> > Interpreters are specifically excluded (they don't produce object > >> > code). It's arguable whether a JIT bytecoder intrudes on enough of > >> > this to be covered. > > > >"bytecode" is a generic term for just that, as is P-code, etc. Most > >popular interpreters these days (Perl, Tcl, Java, etc.) are either JIT- > >or pre-bytecoders. As I said, it's arguable as to whether this is > >covered or not. > > Microsoft's only product that does this is VB, which is what the patent > was intended to cover. That much is clear. Was I giving them too much credit in assuming that VB actually produces machine instructions? The short-form implies that machine-executed instructions are generated, while the longer statement of claim is very careful to avoid any such mention. Incidentally, the patent claims (#6 and #7 in particular) cover both early and late binding. Still. Software patents suck, period. I'm happy to agree there. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 14:45:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29279 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:45:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from redfish.go2net.com (redfish.go2net.com [207.178.55.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA29246 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:45:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@go2net.com) Received: from marcs by redfish.go2net.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zR1MN-000322-00; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:43:03 -0700 Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:43:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Marc Slemko X-Sender: marcs@redfish To: "Jan B. Koum " cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Apachecon anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Hello, > > Who is going to be at Apache conference (www.apachecon.com) next > week? I am giving a talk, but don't know many people there myself - feels > kind of awkward. Of course. I'm giving a talk too, once I finish writing it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 14:47:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29738 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:47:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29694 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:46:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23249; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:46:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19981007164618.24615@futuresouth.com> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:46:18 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: patl@phoenix.volant.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Two Y chromosomes [ Was: Java-based Crypto Decoder Ring ...] References: <19981006045145.26603@futuresouth.com> <3.0.5.32.19981007084546.009431a0@mail.scancall.no> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981007084546.009431a0@mail.scancall.no>; from Marius Bendiksen on Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 08:45:46AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Moved to chat, this is too far from 'security' for my taste...] On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 08:45:46AM +0200, Marius Bendiksen woke me up to tell me: > > >Actually, there are some -very- rare individuals who have two Y > >chromosomes. But they also have an X chromosome. And there are > >some equally rare folks with two Xes and a Y. IIRC, there are > >no obvious physical signs; but such folk tend to be subject to > >various extremes of anti-social and violent behavour. > > Actually, there are (iirc) some physical signs. The only > permutations which don't cause any problems are: > > XX, XY, XXXY Ha! I can't think of many things that have caused more problems and complications than the first... Interesting enough, those in that category say the same about the second... I guess the less common ones really ARE safer... ;) *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 15:28:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09629 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:28:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09623 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:28:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA27126; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 16:28:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981007162509.04218d50@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 16:26:20 -0600 To: Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Microsoft has a patent on [] (fwd) Cc: Mike Smith , Chuck Robey , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810072121.OAA02625@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:21 PM 10/7/98 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >That much is clear. Was I giving them too much credit in assuming that >VB actually produces machine instructions? Yep. Only the very latest version can produce machine instructions upon request. Most versions do not. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 15:43:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12052 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ryouko.nas.nasa.gov (ryouko.nas.nasa.gov [129.99.34.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA12047 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from greg@ryouko.nas.nasa.gov) Received: from ryouko.nas.nasa.gov (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ryouko.nas.nasa.gov (8.8.7/NAS8.8.7n) with ESMTP id PAA16857; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 15:43:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810072243.PAA16857@ryouko.nas.nasa.gov> To: Luigi Rizzo cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Dummynet In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Oct 1998 18:38:51 BST." <199810071738.SAA08935@labinfo.iet.unipi.it> Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 15:43:10 -0700 From: "Gregory P. Smith" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually monitors are heading the right direction these days. With the introduction of desktop flat panel monitors the "viewable" measurement is appearing everywhere... > disk capacities... there K and M were used for 2^10 and 2^20 > respectively, but now it is more and more common to use them for 10^3 > and 10^6, and i hope the unit will not shrink as it happened to the > "monitor inch" ! > > cheers > luigi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 17:13:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA00553 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:13:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA00499 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:13:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA29079; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:43:08 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA06816; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:42:45 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981008094245.Q27781@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 09:42:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Marius Bendiksen Cc: patl@phoenix.volant.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Two Y chromosomes [ Was: Java-based Crypto Decoder Ring ...] References: <19981006045145.26603@futuresouth.com> <3.0.5.32.19981007084546.009431a0@mail.scancall.no> <19981007164618.24615@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19981007164618.24615@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 04:46:18PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 7 October 1998 at 16:46:18 -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > [Moved to chat, this is too far from 'security' for my taste...] > > On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 08:45:46AM +0200, Marius Bendiksen woke me up to tell me: >> >>> Actually, there are some -very- rare individuals who have two Y >>> chromosomes. But they also have an X chromosome. And there are >>> some equally rare folks with two Xes and a Y. IIRC, there are >>> no obvious physical signs; but such folk tend to be subject to >>> various extremes of anti-social and violent behavour. I knew a (girl?) with XXY. IIRC it's called Turner's syndrome. She didn't look completely abnormal, apart from the scars where, at birth, they had detached her ears from her neck and shoulders. She had two *very* good-looking (XX) sisters, who also looked quite like each other, and by comparison she looked a little strange. I was told she had a sharply reduced life expectancy (about 40), and it wouldn't surprise anybody to know that she was infertile. >> Actually, there are (iirc) some physical signs. The only >> permutations which don't cause any problems are: >> >> XX, XY, XXXY XXXY? How many of them turn up? > I can't think of many things that have caused more problems and > complications than the first... > Interesting enough, those in that category say the same about the > second... I guess the less common ones really ARE safer... ;) I'm not sure I understand this. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 17:18:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA01671 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:18:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01662 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 17:18:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA00474; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:18:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19981007191806.10091@futuresouth.com> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:18:06 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Greg Lehey Cc: Marius Bendiksen , patl@phoenix.volant.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Two Y chromosomes [ Was: Java-based Crypto Decoder Ring ...] References: <19981006045145.26603@futuresouth.com> <3.0.5.32.19981007084546.009431a0@mail.scancall.no> <19981007164618.24615@futuresouth.com> <19981008094245.Q27781@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: <19981008094245.Q27781@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 09:42:45AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 09:42:45AM +0930, Greg Lehey woke me up to tell me: > > >> Actually, there are (iirc) some physical signs. The only > >> permutations which don't cause any problems are: > >> > >> XX, XY, XXXY > > XXXY? How many of them turn up? > > > I can't think of many things that have caused more problems and > > complications than the first... > > Interesting enough, those in that category say the same about the > > second... I guess the less common ones really ARE safer... ;) > > I'm not sure I understand this. I don't think it hangs together well myself... I wondered a bit as soon as I sent it... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 20:21:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02681 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:21:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newmail.rma.edu (mail.rma.edu [207.0.141.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02611 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:20:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjalwan@pop3.rma.edu) Received: from mjalwan (USR1-149.rmaonline.net [207.48.171.149] (may be forged)) by newmail.rma.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25116 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:18:36 -0400 Message-Id: <199810080218.WAA25116@newmail.rma.edu> X-Sender: mjalwan@pop3.rma.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 23:19:25 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Michael Alwan Subject: PC Magazine Review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To all: Just thought I'd pass this along--there's a review of 2.2.7 in October's PC Magazine: "A No-Cost NOS" on pg. 227. (It doesn't appear to be online at ZDNet). Mostly complimentary, though not hearty advocacy. M. Alwan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Oct 7 20:21:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA02877 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:21:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from newmail.rma.edu (mail.rma.edu [207.0.141.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA02861 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 20:21:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mjalwan@pop3.rma.edu) Received: from mjalwan (USR1-149.rmaonline.net [207.48.171.149] (may be forged)) by newmail.rma.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA25159 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:19:17 -0400 Message-Id: <199810080219.WAA25159@newmail.rma.edu> X-Sender: mjalwan@pop3.rma.edu X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 23:20:06 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Michael Alwan Subject: Subscribe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 01:14:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19185 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 01:14:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.27.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA19107 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 01:14:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11805; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 01:14:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19981008011405.A11785@mooseriver.com> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 01:14:05 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Headcount for BAFUG meeting (second notice) Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday, October 8th, Noon it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 2.2.7 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 06:34:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA26979 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 06:34:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA26963 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 06:34:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA22236; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:34:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA18842; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:34:19 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19981008153419.04963@follo.net> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:34:19 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Reginald Perry , "'Jason C. Wells'" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD06BCE9@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F30D@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F30D@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com>; from Reginald Perry on Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:10:45PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:10:45PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > So are you saying that you dont think that the network was saturated? Yes. 27Mb/s does not saturate a 100Mbit NIC, and 27Mb/s were (according to the author) what they got. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 08:11:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13624 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:11:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: (from jmb@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA13612; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:11:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmb) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Message-Id: <199810081511.IAA13612@hub.freebsd.org> Subject: Re: wcarchive picture In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at "Oct 7, 98 11:00:44 am" To: jcwells@u.washington.edu Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells wrote: > DG - "Just one. But that was before the upgrade." > > Joe Suit - "Impressive... Really impressive." "Impressive... Very impressive." with James Earl Jones doing the Darth Vader voice jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 08:27:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16175 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:27:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA16150; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:26:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id IAA13954; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:26:43 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id IAA30354; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:26:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive picture In-Reply-To: <199810081511.IAA13612@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > "Impressive... Very impressive." > with James Earl Jones doing the Darth Vader voice > >jmb "The circle is complete. Now FreeBSD is the master." $.02 and not worth that much. :) Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 12:20:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27929 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:20:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch ([62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA27846 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:20:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 15908 invoked from network); 8 Oct 1998 19:20:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.140.7) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 8 Oct 1998 19:20:16 -0000 Message-ID: <361D105F.2E7757CD@pipeline.ch> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 21:19:59 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann Organization: Internet Business Solutions Ltd. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund CC: Reginald Perry , "'Jason C. Wells'" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD06BCE9@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F30D@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> <19981008153419.04963@follo.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:10:45PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > > So are you saying that you dont think that the network was saturated? > > Yes. 27Mb/s does not saturate a 100Mbit NIC, and 27Mb/s were > (according to the author) what they got. Did you say they used DELL boxes? I thought with DELL you'll get 3c509 cards or something like that... -- Andre To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 12:47:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03456 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:47:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03445 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 12:47:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA27328; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:44:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA20363; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:44:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19981008214451.07950@follo.net> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:44:51 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Andre Oppermann Cc: Reginald Perry , "'Jason C. Wells'" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD06BCE9@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F30D@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> <19981008153419.04963@follo.net> <361D105F.2E7757CD@pipeline.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <361D105F.2E7757CD@pipeline.ch>; from Andre Oppermann on Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 09:19:59PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 09:19:59PM +0200, Andre Oppermann wrote: > Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:10:45PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > > > So are you saying that you dont think that the network was saturated? > > > > Yes. 27Mb/s does not saturate a 100Mbit NIC, and 27Mb/s were > > (according to the author) what they got. > > Did you say they used DELL boxes? I thought with DELL you'll get 3c509 > cards or something like that... You get either 3C905 or Intel EtherExpress 10/100+. They'd used Intel Etherexpresses. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 14:08:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20486 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:08:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA20202 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:07:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id WAA29961; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 22:57:07 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 22:57:07 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Andre Oppermann , Reginald Perry , "'Jason C. Wells'" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD06BCE9@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F30D@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> <19981008153419.04963@follo.net> <361D105F.2E7757CD@pipeline.ch> <19981008214451.07950@follo.net> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 08 Oct 1998 22:57:06 +0200 In-Reply-To: Eivind Eklund's message of "Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:44:51 +0200" Message-ID: Lines: 26 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA20434 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund writes: > On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 09:19:59PM +0200, Andre Oppermann wrote: > > Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:10:45PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > > > > So are you saying that you dont think that the network was saturated? > > > Yes. 27Mb/s does not saturate a 100Mbit NIC, and 27Mb/s were > > > (according to the author) what they got. > > Did you say they used DELL boxes? I thought with DELL you'll get 3c509 > > cards or something like that... > You get either 3C905 or Intel EtherExpress 10/100+. They'd used Intel > Etherexpresses. On a good day, my Etherexpress NICs (connected with a crossover Cat 5 UTP cable) max out at about 23 Mbps, as measured by 'netstat -i 1' while running 'rsh luna cat /dev/zero > /dev/null' from Niobe. Luna is a P133 and Niobe is a P166. Running top on Luna shows 40% CPU usage (most of it in cat, which spends a lot of time in sbwait) (running in 100baseTX full duplex of course) One is entitled to wonder where the bottleneck is - in the adapter, in the bus or CPU, in the driver, or in some other part of the kernel. DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 14:09:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA20669 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:09:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA20647 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:09:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00692 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:14:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810082114.OAA00692@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: GPL kills KDE distribution Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 14:14:10 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Note that this means that we *cannot* ship KDE components as packages: http://www.linuxtoday.com/story.pl?sn=158 Chalk one up to the GPL really screwing things up. 8( -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 14:11:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA21242 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:11:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA21146 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:11:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA19444; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:10:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19981008161028.15309@futuresouth.com> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:10:28 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: David B Swann Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Dag-Erling_C=2E_Sm=F8rgrav?= , Nate Williams , patl@phoenix.volant.org, Wes Peters , FreeBSD-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Two Y chromosomes [ Was: Java-based Crypto Decoder Ring ...] References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from David B Swann on Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 10:15:07AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Slowly dragging bits and pieces of the thread to -chat] On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 10:15:07AM -0400, David B Swann woke me up to tell me: > Could this thread be moved off the FreeBSD security list? Unless, of > course, this aids in the security of my UNIX box ;) Are you crazy? You know how bad normal users can get... think if they were all XYY!! Then again, they wouldn't reproduce that way... *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 14:16:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA22104 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:16:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from redfish.go2net.com (redfish.go2net.com [207.178.55.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA22062 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:16:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@go2net.com) Received: from marcs by redfish.go2net.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zRNOq-0007Jz-00; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:15:04 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:15:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Marc Slemko X-Sender: marcs@redfish To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <361D105F.2E7757CD@pipeline.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This short article is now online at http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/pclabs/nettools/1718/bench1.html If a machine has enough memory to keep most (for certain definitions of most) of the working set of the static benchmark content in memory, then IIS and NT do have an advantage over FreeBSD and Apache (both the OS and the webserver) due to various optimizations. Well, until NT crashes. The benefit of these optimizations in non-benchmark situations does exist, but it is questionable and quite situation specific as to if it is nontrivial or not. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 14:45:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26442 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:45:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26419 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:44:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id XAA04260; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 23:43:04 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 23:43:04 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Marc Slemko Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ X-unnamed-manufactor: Datavarehuset IIRC From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 08 Oct 1998 23:43:03 +0200 In-Reply-To: Marc Slemko's message of "Thu, 8 Oct 1998 14:15:04 -0700 (PDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 16 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA26427 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marc Slemko writes: > If a machine has enough memory to keep most (for certain definitions of > most) of the working set of the static benchmark content in memory, then > IIS and NT do have an advantage over FreeBSD and Apache (both the OS and > the webserver) due to various optimizations. Well, until NT crashes. Reminds me of the time when (five or six years ago) a norwegian computer manufactor which shall remain unnamed turned in one of their newest "home computing" models to PC World Norway for benchmarking. The computer they sent in had a caching IDE controller with 16 MB of cache, which at that time represented twice the amount of RAM (and one-eighth the amount of disk space) in an average home PC... DES -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 15:18:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA02981 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA02902 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA13109; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:18:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA29900; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:18:20 -0600 Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:18:20 -0600 Message-Id: <199810082218.QAA29900@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: James Wyatt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Compiler likes tabs better than spaces?? (was Re: ..logging (the problem is fixed)) In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19981007131531.0408a100@mail.lariat.org> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Moved to -chat, as this is really not security related... ] > Tabs in source can compile a *lot* faster in large C++ source and > headers. I also used it over NFS to do *nix programming before I got > my vi-feet... Now, this is one of those statements I *really* like to see, since it has no basis on factual data. Using tabs vs. spaces won't make your program compile measurably faster. Whoever told you this was smoking something.... Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 15:46:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08904 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:46:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08805 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:46:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17690; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:46:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sef) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:46:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199810082246.PAA17690@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL kills KDE distribution In-Reply-To: <199810082114.OAA00692.kithrup.freebsd.chat@dingo.cdrom.com> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <199810082114.OAA00692.kithrup.freebsd.chat@dingo.cdrom.com> you write: >Chalk one up to the GPL really screwing things up. 8( No, chalk it up to people using non-free licensing terms (e.g., Qt's license) and other people insisting that onl non-GPL licenses are truly free. You get what you deserve: you want software to be able to be non-free, you end up with software that is non-free. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 15:50:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA09746 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:50:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA09614 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:50:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA01220 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:55:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810082255.PAA01220@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL kills KDE distribution In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 08 Oct 1998 15:46:14 PDT." <199810082246.PAA17690@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 15:55:08 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In article <199810082114.OAA00692.kithrup.freebsd.chat@dingo.cdrom.com> you write: > >Chalk one up to the GPL really screwing things up. 8( > > No, chalk it up to people using non-free licensing terms (e.g., Qt's license) > and other people insisting that onl non-GPL licenses are truly free. > > You get what you deserve: you want software to be able to be non-free, you > end up with software that is non-free. The GPL is the spanner in the works here. The QT license is quite open to it being used in free software. The problem is that the GPL wants to infect everything it comes into contact with, and QT is immune. The result is the death of the host. Cause of death is Poisoning by GPL. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 15:58:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11417 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:58:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11330 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:57:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id PAA14733; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:57:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 15:57:29 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Nate Williams cc: James Wyatt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compiler likes tabs better than spaces?? (was Re: ..logging (the problem is fixed)) In-Reply-To: <199810082218.QAA29900@mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org But it will run faster.. Err.. doh! .. who put crack in my coffee? -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Nate Williams wrote: >[ Moved to -chat, as this is really not security related... ] > >> Tabs in source can compile a *lot* faster in large C++ source and >> headers. I also used it over NFS to do *nix programming before I got >> my vi-feet... > >Now, this is one of those statements I *really* like to see, since it >has no basis on factual data. Using tabs vs. spaces won't make your >program compile measurably faster. Whoever told you this was smoking >something.... > > > >Nate > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 16:09:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA14043 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:09:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13950 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:08:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA00906; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810082304.QAA00906@implode.root.com> To: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) cc: Eivind Eklund , Andre Oppermann , Reginald Perry , "'Jason C. Wells'" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "08 Oct 1998 22:57:06 +0200." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 16:04:44 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Eivind Eklund writes: >> On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 09:19:59PM +0200, Andre Oppermann wrote: >> > Eivind Eklund wrote: >> > > On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 12:10:45PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: >> > > > So are you saying that you dont think that the network was saturated? >> > > Yes. 27Mb/s does not saturate a 100Mbit NIC, and 27Mb/s were >> > > (according to the author) what they got. >> > Did you say they used DELL boxes? I thought with DELL you'll get 3c509 >> > cards or something like that... >> You get either 3C905 or Intel EtherExpress 10/100+. They'd used Intel >> Etherexpresses. > >On a good day, my Etherexpress NICs (connected with a crossover Cat 5 >UTP cable) max out at about 23 Mbps, as measured by 'netstat -i 1' >while running 'rsh luna cat /dev/zero > /dev/null' from Niobe. Luna is >a P133 and Niobe is a P166. Running top on Luna shows 40% CPU usage >(most of it in cat, which spends a lot of time in sbwait) > >(running in 100baseTX full duplex of course) > >One is entitled to wonder where the bottleneck is - in the adapter, in >the bus or CPU, in the driver, or in some other part of the kernel. I have 2.1.x and 2.2.x machines here, Pentium (133-166), and all have Intel Pro/100B cards. I have no trouble getting >10MB/sec on these: [implode:dg] ttcp -p9 -n8192 -t core ttcp-t: buflen=8192, nbuf=8192, align=16384/+0, port=9 tcp -> core ttcp-t: socket ttcp-t: nopush ttcp-t: connect ttcp-t: 67108864 bytes in 6.49 real seconds = 10100.44 KB/sec +++ ttcp-t: 8192 I/O calls, msec/call = 0.81, calls/sec = 1262.55 ttcp-t: 0.0user 5.3sys 0:06real 83% 152i+341d 130maxrss 0+2pf 0+123csw 0.086u 5.377s 0:06.49 83.9% 153+341k 0+0io 0pf+0w [core:dg] ttcp -p9 -n8192 -t implode ttcp-t: buflen=8192, nbuf=8192, align=16384/+0, port=9 tcp -> implode ttcp-t: socket ttcp-t: nopush ttcp-t: connect ttcp-t: 67108864 bytes in 5.75 real seconds = 11400.66 KB/sec +++ ttcp-t: 8192 I/O calls, msec/call = 0.72, calls/sec = 1425.08 ttcp-t: 0.0user 3.2sys 0:05real 56% 143i+369d 76maxrss 0+2pf 13787+15csw -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 16:16:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15854 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:16:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15744 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:16:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA25853; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:16:06 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19981008181606.48811@futuresouth.com> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:16:06 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jan B. Koum " Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compiler likes tabs better than spaces?? (was Re: ..logging (the problem is fixed)) References: <199810082218.QAA29900@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88 In-Reply-To: ; from Jan B. Koum on Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 03:57:29PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 03:57:29PM -0700, Jan B. Koum woke me up to tell me: > > But it will run faster.. Err.. doh! .. who put crack in my coffee? More to the point, who put crack in your coffee and passed up mine? *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | FreeBSD; the way computers were meant to be | * "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is * | that I haven't figured out how to light the middle yet."| * fullermd@futuresouth.com :-} MAtthew Fuller * | http://keystone.westminster.edu/~fullermd | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 16:20:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA16686 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:20:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail11.digital.com (mail11.digital.com [192.208.46.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA16577 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:20:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from perry@zso.dec.com) Received: from rust.zso.dec.com (rust.zso.dec.com [16.64.0.1]) by mail11.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0h) with SMTP id TAA26470 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 19:19:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.zso.dec.com by rust.zso.dec.com (5.65/DECwest-CLUSTRIX-mwd-12Dec94) id AA05390; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:19:57 -0700 From: perry@zso.dec.com (Reginald Perry) To: Subject: RE: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:16:46 -0700 Message-Id: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F311@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD22C21D@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From my perspective. I just wanted to be sure that the article was accurate and that if what the article said about the cache limitation was true, what the exact problem was if it indeed is a problem. The answer seems to be that the statement about the cache is incorrect, but that there seems to be a bottleneck somewhere, but 1) its unclear where, 2) its unclear that its a problem. -Reggie -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Marc Slemko Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 2:15 PM To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD This short article is now online at http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/pclabs/nettools/1718/bench1.html If a machine has enough memory to keep most (for certain definitions of most) of the working set of the static benchmark content in memory, then IIS and NT do have an advantage over FreeBSD and Apache (both the OS and the webserver) due to various optimizations. Well, until NT crashes. The benefit of these optimizations in non-benchmark situations does exist, but it is questionable and quite situation specific as to if it is nontrivial or not. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 16:27:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA18068 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de [194.233.237.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17934 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:26:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cracauer@gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by gilgamesch.bik-gmbh.de (8.8.8/8.7.3) id BAA22615; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 01:25:44 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19981009012543.A22607@cons.org> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 01:25:43 +0200 From: Martin Cracauer To: Mike Smith , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL kills KDE distribution References: <199810082114.OAA00692@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.1i In-Reply-To: <199810082114.OAA00692@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 02:14:10PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <199810082114.OAA00692@dingo.cdrom.com>, Mike Smith wrote: > > Note that this means that we *cannot* ship KDE components as packages: > > http://www.linuxtoday.com/story.pl?sn=158 > > Chalk one up to the GPL really screwing things up. 8( The readhat folks came to the same conclusion a few weeks ago and announced they will not ship KDE in the future. slashdot.org carries the story. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer BSD User Group Hamburg, Germany http://www.bsdhh.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 16:47:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA22188 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:47:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22179 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:46:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA07307; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:46:49 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.1.19981008173746.0429fc30@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 17:40:54 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL kills KDE distribution In-Reply-To: <199810082246.PAA17690@kithrup.com> References: <199810082114.OAA00692.kithrup.freebsd.chat@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, I can't help thinking that if the KDE people had used a Berkeley-esque license, they'd be fine. Maybe we should recommend this. Incidentally, the GPL has a chilling effect on the development of drivers for hardware for the same reason it runs into problems with KDE. Suppose a hardware vendor is willing to supply a driver in object code form, but doesn't want to open the source because it reveals hardware trade secrets or gives it an "edge" over other companies using similar chips. The Berkeley license doesn't preclude linking in someone's closed source driver; the GPL does. We have an edge here that perhaps we should be exploiting. --Brett At 03:46 PM 10/8/98 -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: >In article <199810082114.OAA00692.kithrup.freebsd.chat@dingo.cdrom.com> you >write: >>Chalk one up to the GPL really screwing things up. 8( > >No, chalk it up to people using non-free licensing terms (e.g., Qt's license) >and other people insisting that onl non-GPL licenses are truly free. > >You get what you deserve: you want software to be able to be non-free, you >end up with software that is non-free. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 16:53:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23001 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:53:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA22968 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:52:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id QAA18567; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id QAA13781; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 16:51:22 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id RAA15510; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:51:21 -0600 Message-ID: <361D4FF9.F4A9CA63@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 17:51:21 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nate Williams CC: James Wyatt , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compiler likes tabs better than spaces?? (was Re: ..logging (the problem is fixed)) References: <4.1.19981007131531.0408a100@mail.lariat.org> <199810082218.QAA29900@mt.sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nate Williams wrote: > > [ Moved to -chat, as this is really not security related... ] > > > Tabs in source can compile a *lot* faster in large C++ source and > > headers. I also used it over NFS to do *nix programming before I got > > my vi-feet... > > Now, this is one of those statements I *really* like to see, since it > has no basis on factual data. Using tabs vs. spaces won't make your > program compile measurably faster. Whoever told you this was smoking > something.... Or compiling on an NFS mount over a 300-baud PPP link. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 17:31:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29700 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:31:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from seera.nttlabs.com (seera.nttlabs.com [204.162.36.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA29660 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:31:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gene@nttlabs.com) Received: from localhost (gene@localhost) by seera.nttlabs.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA24760; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:30:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gene@nttlabs.com) X-Authentication-Warning: seera.nttlabs.com: gene owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:30:48 -0700 (PDT) From: "Eugene M. Kim" To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List cc: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL kills KDE distribution In-Reply-To: <4.1.19981008173746.0429fc30@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I strongly second his opinion; one reason FreeBSD had been selected for the company project I work on was that FreeBSD does not have such restrictive licensing terms. GPL-protected platfomrs were not suitable, because they would demand the product to be ``wide open'' (pronounced ``vulnerable to other companies' reverse engineering''). A Berkeley-style license recommends the software be shared. The GPL urges the software be shared. I like the first idea, which doesn't so choke my throat that I would starve to death. :-) (Hmm... Another catch-phrase? ``FreeBSD: the corporate-friendly operating system'' Well never mind *^^*) Eugene On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Brett Glass wrote: | Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 17:40:54 -0600 | From: Brett Glass | To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG | Subject: Re: GPL kills KDE distribution | | Well, I can't help thinking that if the KDE people had used a Berkeley-esque | license, they'd be fine. | | Maybe we should recommend this. | | Incidentally, the GPL has a chilling effect on the development of drivers | for hardware for the same reason it runs into problems with KDE. Suppose | a hardware vendor is willing to supply a driver in object code form, but | doesn't want to open the source because it reveals hardware trade | secrets or gives it an "edge" over other companies using similar | chips. The Berkeley license doesn't preclude linking in someone's closed | source driver; the GPL does. We have an edge here that perhaps we should | be exploiting. | | --Brett | | At 03:46 PM 10/8/98 -0700, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: | | >In article <199810082114.OAA00692.kithrup.freebsd.chat@dingo.cdrom.com> you | >write: | >>Chalk one up to the GPL really screwing things up. 8( | > | >No, chalk it up to people using non-free licensing terms (e.g., Qt's license) | >and other people insisting that onl non-GPL licenses are truly free. | > | >You get what you deserve: you want software to be able to be non-free, you | >end up with software that is non-free. | > | | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 18:22:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA10925 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:22:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (host-e186.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA10758 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:22:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) id VAA03264; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:18:44 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19981008211843.A3259@tidalwave.net> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:18:43 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Reginald Perry , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD22C21D@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F311@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F311@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com>; from Reginald Perry on Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 04:16:46PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 04:16:46PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > The answer seems to be that the statement about the cache is incorrect, but > that there seems to be a bottleneck somewhere, but 1) its unclear where, 2) > its unclear that its a problem. I read that article, and that statement about cache just seems to be a total non-sequitur. It flies right in the face of the graph they gave, and the wording of the article before they said this, so I think it's an error. -- Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | mailto:lcremean@tidalwave.net http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net | Powered by FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 18:28:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA12244 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:28:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from redfish.go2net.com (redfish.go2net.com [207.178.55.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA12078 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:27:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcs@go2net.com) Received: from marcs by redfish.go2net.com with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zRRKK-0002SR-00; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:26:40 -0700 Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:26:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Marc Slemko X-Sender: marcs@redfish To: lcremean@tidalwave.net cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19981008211843.A3259@tidalwave.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 04:16:46PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > > The answer seems to be that the statement about the cache is incorrect, but > > that there seems to be a bottleneck somewhere, but 1) its unclear where, 2) > > its unclear that its a problem. > > I read that article, and that statement about cache just seems to be a total > non-sequitur. It flies right in the face of the graph they gave, and the It is completely consistent with the graph. The graph is clients vs. ops with _one_ amount of RAM. They are saying that with an increasing amount of RAM, NT gets more gains. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 18:34:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13955 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:34:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13743 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:33:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA03512; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:03:41 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA03639; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:03:40 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981009110339.L3369@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:03:39 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Nate Williams , James Wyatt Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compiler likes tabs better than spaces?? (was Re: ..logging (the problem is fixed)) References: <4.1.19981007131531.0408a100@mail.lariat.org> <199810082218.QAA29900@mt.sri.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199810082218.QAA29900@mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 04:18:20PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 8 October 1998 at 16:18:20 -0600, Nate Williams wrote: > [ Moved to -chat, as this is really not security related... ] > >> Tabs in source can compile a *lot* faster in large C++ source and >> headers. I also used it over NFS to do *nix programming before I got >> my vi-feet... > > Now, this is one of those statements I *really* like to see, since it > has no basis on factual data. Using tabs vs. spaces won't make your > program compile measurably faster. Whoever told you this was smoking > something.... Or maybe he'd been asleep for 20 years. Like many such legends, it's based in fact, like the claim in the compiler spec I'm currently reviewing that integrating the preprocessor and the compiler would make it faster. 20 years ago this might have made sense. Remember the multi-minute compiles of 500 and 1000 line source files? But 20 years ago the machines were about .1% of the speed of modern machines. Compilers do a lot more now, and lexical analysis is only a small part. I've half ported the original PDP 11 C compiler to FreeBSD, and compilations are so fast that I can't measure them. I'm wondering whether I could do a make world of 2.11BSD in under a minute... Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 18:36:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14376 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:36:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (st-lcremean.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13843 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:34:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) id VAA03317; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:33:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19981008213339.B3259@tidalwave.net> Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 21:33:39 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Marc Slemko , lcremean@tidalwave.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <19981008211843.A3259@tidalwave.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Marc Slemko on Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 06:26:40PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 06:26:40PM -0700, Marc Slemko wrote: > On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > > On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 04:16:46PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > > > The answer seems to be that the statement about the cache is incorrect, but > > > that there seems to be a bottleneck somewhere, but 1) its unclear where, 2) > > > its unclear that its a problem. > > > > I read that article, and that statement about cache just seems to be a total > > non-sequitur. It flies right in the face of the graph they gave, and the > > It is completely consistent with the graph. The graph is clients vs. > ops with _one_ amount of RAM. They are saying that with an increasing > amount of RAM, NT gets more gains. Ah, I did not notice this. -- Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | mailto:lcremean@tidalwave.net http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net | Powered by FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 18:58:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA20585 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:58:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA20511 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:58:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA03643; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:27:12 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA04183; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:27:10 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981009112710.P3369@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:27:10 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Reginald Perry , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD22C21D@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F311@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F311@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com>; from Reginald Perry on Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 04:16:46PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 8 October 1998 at 16:16:46 -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: >> [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Marc Slemko >> Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 2:15 PM >> >> This short article is now online at >> http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/pclabs/nettools/1718/bench1.html >> >> If a machine has enough memory to keep most (for certain definitions of >> most) of the working set of the static benchmark content in memory, then >> IIS and NT do have an advantage over FreeBSD and Apache (both the OS and >> the webserver) due to various optimizations. Well, until NT crashes. >> >> The benefit of these optimizations in non-benchmark situations does exist, >> but it is questionable and quite situation specific as to if it is >> nontrivial or not. > > From my perspective. I just wanted to be sure that the article was accurate > and that if what the article said about the cache limitation was true, what > the exact problem was if it indeed is a problem. > > The answer seems to be that the statement about the cache is incorrect, but > that there seems to be a bottleneck somewhere, but 1) its unclear where, 2) > its unclear that its a problem. Has anybody contacted the author? Offering help for isolating the problem might help. I'll do it if nobody else does or has. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 22:01:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21197 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 22:01:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21168 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 22:01:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA06883; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:53:17 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:53:16 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: "Eugene M. Kim" cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List , Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL kills KDE distribution In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Eugene M. Kim wrote: [...] > (Hmm... Another catch-phrase? ``FreeBSD: the corporate-friendly > operating system'' Well never mind *^^*) > > Eugene Another phrase used to describe FreeBSD recently, by a Netbsd afficionado was: "FreeBSD: The Linux of the BSD World". :) Nick -- Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Oct 8 22:29:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA25437 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 22:29:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA25432 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 22:29:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (tulip18.verinet.com [199.45.181.210]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id XAA16499; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 23:29:13 -0600 Received: from verinet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25677; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 23:28:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Message-ID: <361D9EF4.42B85935@verinet.com> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 23:28:20 -0600 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ncb05@uow.edu.au CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL kills KDE distribution References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > > On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Eugene M. Kim wrote: > > [...] > > (Hmm... Another catch-phrase? ``FreeBSD: the corporate-friendly > > operating system'' Well never mind *^^*) > > > > Eugene > > Another phrase used to describe FreeBSD recently, by a Netbsd > afficionado was: "FreeBSD: The Linux of the BSD World". :) > > Nick Is this a hit or a compliment? -- Allen Campbell | If it's good enough for Oracle, allenc@verinet.com | it's good enough for me. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 00:26:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14024 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:26:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14009 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:26:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id RAA26324; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:26:35 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:26:35 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: Allen Campbell cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL kills KDE distribution In-Reply-To: <361D9EF4.42B85935@verinet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Allen Campbell wrote: > Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: [...] > > Another phrase used to describe FreeBSD recently, by a Netbsd > > afficionado was: "FreeBSD: The Linux of the BSD World". :) > > > > Nick > > Is this a hit or a compliment? > > -- > Allen Campbell | If it's good enough for Oracle, > allenc@verinet.com | it's good enough for me. > I believe it was a derogatory statement, coming from a "purist" user of netbsd. To many of these "purists", anything that is used by a large number of people, is relatively easy to use - must be the spawn of the devil. Just my $0.02, Nick -- Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 00:31:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA14941 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:31:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA14913 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:31:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id AAA29572; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:31:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 00:31:40 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Marc Slemko cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think it was a good review over all. -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Marc Slemko wrote: >This short article is now online at >http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/pclabs/nettools/1718/bench1.html [snip] > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 02:23:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA26337 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:23:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw (bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw [140.112.18.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA26318 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:23:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from woju@bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw) From: woju@bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw Received: (qmail 8221 invoked by uid 9999); 9 Oct 1998 09:24:56 -0000 Date: 9 Oct 1998 09:24:56 -0000 Message-ID: <19981009092456.8220.qmail@bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw> Reply-To: woju@bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FSF Award Finalists X-Disclaimer: »O€j¹qŸ÷ Maxwell ¯ž¹ï¥»«H€º®e®€€£­t³d¡C Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's really wonderful to see Jordan in the list! I love Jordan :-) - woju ( FreeBSD Chinese BIG5 Document/FAQ http://bsd.wj.ml.org ) ------- Start of forwarded message ------- From: Tim Ney Newsgroups: gnu.announce,comp.os.linux.misc,gnu.misc.discuss Subject: FSF Award Finalists Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:00:16 -0400 Organization: MIT Artificial Intelligence Lab Message-ID: To: info-gnu@gnu.org by mescaline.gnu.org (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA27603; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 18:00:16 -0400 List of Finalists Free Software Foundation Award for the Advancement of Free Software The winner will be announced on October 9th. --------------------------- The Apache Project is a collaborative software development effort aimed at creating a robust, commercial-grade, featureful, and freely-available source code implementation of an HTTP (Web) server. OA "Apache has demonstrated that free software can be the best available in open (market) competition, measured by commercial standards of quality, and that an open, distributed development process can produce such software. While there are many other pieces of commercial-quality free software available, I believe Apache is unique in both being clearly preferred to its commercial competitors *and* having been developed in a relatively decentralized manner." Donald J. Becker was nominated for network device drivers for GNU/Linux, and for the Beowulf project. He is a Staff Scientist with the Center of Excellence in Space Data and Information Sciences. CESDIS is part of the University Space Research Association, a non-profit consortium of universities that funds space-related university research and runs research groups such as RIACS and ICASE. He is also the principal investigator on the Beowulf Project, an effort to develop a software distribution to help others build high-performance workstations based on a cluster of off-the-shelf processing nodes running GNU/Linux. Tim Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web, an internet-based hypermedia initiative for global information sharing. He directs the World Wide Web (W3) Consortium, an open forum of companies and organizations with the mission to realize the full potential of the Web. "In the course of history, Hypertext and the concept of a universal document and linking system has been invented dozens of times. Tim's unique contribution was enabled by, and indisputably demonstrated, the inexorable power of free software. Upon this infrastructure, the World Wide Web came into being, and more than anything else, changed the world's perception of the intrinsic value of free software." L. Peter Deutsch was nominated for Ghostscript, an interpreter for the PostScript (TM) language. A PostScript interpreter usually takes as input a set of graphics commands. The output is usually a page bitmap which is then sent to an output device such as a printer or display. PostScript is embedded in many printers. "Ghostscript is the base of virtually all GNU/Linux (and possibly other free OS) printing systems." Jordan Hubbard was one of the founders of the FreeBSD Project and is its public relations officer and release engineer, as well as President and CEO of FreeBSD, Inc. "Number One cat herder." FreeBSD is an advanced BSD UNIX operating system for "PC-compatible" computers. Jordan Hubbard will chair the FREENIX track at USENIX '99 in Monterey, CA on June 6-11, 1999. Donald Knuth, one of the acknowledged fathers of computer science, was nominated for his TeX typesetting system and his technique of `literate programming.' "His special contribution is that he >>explained<< a large program that does "real life" work." His books include _The Art of Computer Programming_, _Literate Programming_, and _Digital Typography_. He is Professor Emeritus of The Art of Computer Programming at Stanford University. In 1974 Donald Knuth won the Turing Award, the ACM's most prestigious technical award. In 1996 he received the Kyoto Prize, Japan's highest private award for lifetime achievement, the closest thing to a Nobel Prize in computer science. Ted Lemon was nominated for his work with the Internet Software Consortium. The ISC is a nonprofit corporation for the implementation of publicly-available code for key portions of the Internet infrastructure. Its current programs include widely-used implementations of the Domain Name System (BIND), Netnews (INN) and the Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol (DHCP). Ted Lemon is Architect and programmer on ISC DHCP, which automates most of the management of IP addresses on client machines, and he participates actively in the support list for that product. "Ted is excellent at considering the suggestions for changes in the software and incorporating those which will make the product more useful, while keeping the code base "rock solid" and making sure that everything complies with the pertinent RFCs. If more people worked through an idea before releasing the product the way Ted does, computer software would be much more reliable and would interact with other software and hardware more easily." Brian Paul is the author of the Mesa 3D graphics library. Mesa uses the OpenGL API (Application Programming Interface). Most applications written for OpenGL can use Mesa instead without changing the source code. Mesa was originally designed for Unix/X11 systems and is still best supported on those systems. Others have contributed drivers for the Amiga, Apple Macintosh, BeOS, NeXT, OS/2, MS-DOS, VMS, and Windows 95/NT. Brian Paul now works at Avid Technology in Tewksbury, Mass., but his work there is not associated with Mesa. He was formerly employed at the Space Science and Engineering Center at the University of Wisconsin - Madison. Eric S. Raymond was nominated for his writings, especially his essay "The Cathedral and the Bazaar." This paper was described by Netscape Communications, Inc., as a major factor in their decision to release their client software as open source. He is also editor of _The New Hackers' Dictionary_; principal researcher and author of _Portable C and UNIX Systems Programming_; programmer of "C-INTERCAL", an INTERCAL-to-C compiler; principal co-developer of ncurses, a freeware screen-handling library with an API compatible with System V curses(3); co-curator of the Retrocomputing Museum; and Technical Director of the Chester County Internet Link (CCIL). He "defined what it means to be Open Source" and was "single-handedly responsible for Netscape going open source." "His fetchmail program (not to mention that delightful Intercal to C translator :) ) is a great goodness." Henry Spencer is a widely quoted UNIX systems programmer who developed robust and widely used software to handle regular expressions. He ran the first Usenet site in Canada, and is well-known as a Usenet contributor in many areas, notably the space and C groups. He and David Lawrence wrote _Managing Usenet_. He also wrote _The Ten Commandments For C Programmers_, and the "regular expressions" chapter for _Software Solutions in C_. He has written various pieces of freely-available software: the public-domain getopt, the first redistributable string library, the widely-used redistributable regular-expression library, the 4.4BSD POSIX regular-expression library, the awf text formatter, etc. He and Geoff Collyer wrote C News, one of the two major software packages for network news transport and storage. Larry Wall was nominated for his many contributions to the advancement of freely distributed software, most notably Perl, a robust scripting language for sophisticated text manipulation and system management. His other widely-used programs include rn (news reader), patch (development and distribution tool), metaconfig (a program that writes Configure scripts), and the Warp space-war game. "... Perl, a tool that takes the UNIX ideas of flexibility and portability further than almost any program before it. Perl is probably the most powerful and widely applicable GNU program." "Larry Wall has always promoted keeping his implementations free for all to study, enhance, and build on, without restrictions, and the freedom for all to benefit in whatever ways they can from his products." ------- End of forwarded message ------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 02:24:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA26620 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:24:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA26597 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:24:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zRYlu-0007nV-00; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:23:38 +0200 Message-ID: <19981009112338.A29959@cityip.co.za> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:23:38 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Nicholas Charles Brawn Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL kills KDE distribution Mail-Followup-To: Nicholas Charles Brawn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <361D9EF4.42B85935@verinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Nicholas Charles Brawn on Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 05:26:35PM +1000 X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 09 Oct 1998 at 17:26 SAT, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Allen Campbell wrote: > > > Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > > [...] > > > Another phrase used to describe FreeBSD recently, by a Netbsd > > > afficionado was: "FreeBSD: The Linux of the BSD World". :) > > > > > > Nick > > > > Is this a hit or a compliment? > > > > -- > > Allen Campbell | If it's good enough for Oracle, > > allenc@verinet.com | it's good enough for me. > > > > I believe it was a derogatory statement, coming from a "purist" user of > netbsd. To many of these "purists", anything that is used by a large > number of people, is relatively easy to use - must be the spawn of the > devil. So where does that leave Linux? "The Windows95 of the Unix world"? ;-) -- V Johann Visagie | wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 | ICQ: 20645559 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 02:29:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA27301 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:29:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from time.cdrom.com (time.cdrom.com [204.216.27.226]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA27290 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:29:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) Received: from time.cdrom.com (jkh@localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by time.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA05948; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:28:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@time.cdrom.com) To: woju@bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FSF Award Finalists In-reply-to: Your message of "09 Oct 1998 09:24:56 -0000." <19981009092456.8220.qmail@bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 02:28:26 -0700 Message-ID: <5943.907925306@time.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It's really wonderful to see Jordan in the list! Hmmmmm. Boy, talk about being in some seriously disreputable company. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 02:46:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA29972 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:46:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA29956 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 02:46:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id TAA26614; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:46:24 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:46:24 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: age check :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After seeing a recent article on slashdot, about a new game that's being ported to Linux (http://www.linuxpower.org/display_item.phtml?id=65), I was curious at the demographics of the FreeBSD userbase, and whether we'd have enuf young 'uns to justify a port of similar games in the future. Plus, it's interesting to know. :) As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, 20-25, or 25+? Cheers, Nick (who just fits into the 16-20 age bracket) -- Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 03:04:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02587 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:04:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.cityip.co.za (ns.cityip.co.za [196.25.223.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA02576 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:04:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wjv@cityip.co.za) Received: from wjv by ns.cityip.co.za with local (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0zRZOo-000064-00; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:03:50 +0200 Message-ID: <19981009120350.A368@cityip.co.za> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:03:50 +0200 From: Johann Visagie To: Nicholas Charles Brawn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) Mail-Followup-To: Nicholas Charles Brawn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Nicholas Charles Brawn on Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 07:46:24PM +1000 X-PGP: ftp://ftp.cityip.co.za/users/wjv/pubkey.asc Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 09 Oct 1998 at 19:46 SAT, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > > After seeing a recent article on slashdot, about a new game that's being > ported to Linux (http://www.linuxpower.org/display_item.phtml?id=65), I > was curious at the demographics of the FreeBSD userbase, and whether > we'd have enuf young 'uns to justify a port of similar games in the > future. Plus, it's interesting to know. :) > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > 20-25, or 25+? 25+ However, both from my own experience and from statistics I've seen, I believe that the average age of serious gamers is on the rise. I suppose that that can be ascribed to the fact that the first generation of people who grew up with computers in the home is now reaching the 25+ bracket. -- V Johann Visagie | wjv@CityIP.co.za | Tel: +27 21 419-7878 | ICQ: 20645559 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 03:10:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03182 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:10:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03173 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:10:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id UAA19788; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:09:57 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19981009200951.60385@welearn.com.au> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:09:51 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Nicholas Charles Brawn Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Nicholas Charles Brawn on Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 07:46:24PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 07:46:24PM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > After seeing a recent article on slashdot, about a new game that's being > ported to Linux (http://www.linuxpower.org/display_item.phtml?id=65), I > was curious at the demographics of the FreeBSD userbase, and whether > we'd have enuf young 'uns to justify a port of similar games in the > future. Plus, it's interesting to know. :) Has age got something to do with interest in games, or is this particular game age-restricted? Maybe this is explained in web page you mentioned, but I can't read bright white and yellow on black. (Does that give you some clue to the next question?) > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > 20-25, or 25+? What you're asking is, out of freebsd-chat readers (a very small group of FreeBSD users, possibly older than on our other lists but not necessarily), what are the ages of those list members who are both willing to reveal their ages and also think it is worth answering. > Nick (who just fits into the 16-20 age bracket) Tell me, why is it that people in this age group are so obsessed with other people's ages? I never see older people take much interest in ages, but teenagers can't relax until they know. Meeting strangers on the Internet must must be awfully uncomfortable for you. Anyway, you don't have an age bracket for me that I could point to without being misleading :-) Is it still OK if I play games? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 03:18:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03936 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:18:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03931 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:18:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.03 #1) id 0zRZck-0004Zx-00; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:18:15 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA02081; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:18:10 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05859; Fri, 9 Oct 98 11:18:09 BST Message-Id: <361DE2DF.9DD81E4A@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 11:18:07 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Nicholas Charles Brawn Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > [snip] > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > 20-25, or 25+? > 25+, even older than Unix :-( > Cheers, > Nick (who just fits into the 16-20 age bracket) > > -- > Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb > Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane. Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 03:43:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA07599 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:43:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA07572 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:43:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.03 #1) id 0zRa0i-0001d4-00; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:43:01 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id LAA02156; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:42:55 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06314; Fri, 9 Oct 98 11:42:55 BST Message-Id: <361DE8AD.594CB59A@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 11:42:53 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: woju@bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FSF Award Finalists References: <19981009092456.8220.qmail@bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org woju@bbs.ee.ntu.edu.tw wrote: > > It's really wonderful to see Jordan in the list! > I love Jordan :-) > > - woju ( FreeBSD Chinese BIG5 Document/FAQ http://bsd.wj.ml.org ) > [snip] > > Jordan Hubbard was one of the founders of the FreeBSD Project and is > its public relations officer and release engineer, as well as > President and CEO of FreeBSD, Inc. "Number One cat herder." FreeBSD > is an advanced BSD UNIX operating system for "PC-compatible" > computers. > Jordan Hubbard will chair the FREENIX track at USENIX '99 in > Monterey, CA on June 6-11, 1999. > Well done Jordan! You should be justifiably proud of this. It's recognition by the Linux/GPL camp, who generally criticise the use of BSD/Berkeley Licence, that FreeBSD is making a significant contribution to the Advancement of Free Software and also the good work you do in promoting/advocating FreeBSD for which we should all be grateful. -- When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane. Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 03:55:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA08753 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:55:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from proxy.grad.kiev.ua (grad-UTC-28k8.ukrtel.net [195.5.25.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA08745 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 03:55:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA) Received: from Shevchenko.Kiev.UA (cam [10.0.0.50]) by proxy.grad.kiev.ua (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id NAA15236; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:55:42 +0300 (EEST) (envelope-from Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA) Message-ID: <361DEB37.828C68C@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 13:53:43 +0300 From: Ruslan Shevchenko Reply-To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.5-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicholas Charles Brawn CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=koi8-r Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > > After seeing a recent article on slashdot, about a new game that's being > ported to Linux (http://www.linuxpower.org/display_item.phtml?id=65), I > was curious at the demographics of the FreeBSD userbase, and whether > we'd have enuf young 'uns to justify a port of similar games in the > future. Plus, it's interesting to know. :) > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > 20-25, or 25+? > 25+ :) And my favorite game is still tetris. (Interesting, than my coworkers in age 20-25 all prefer Doom) > Cheers, > Nick (who just fits into the 16-20 age bracket) > > -- > Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb > Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- @= //RSSH mailto:Ruslan@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA CORBA in Ukraine & ex-USSR: http://www.corbadev.kiev.ua To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 04:02:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA09969 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 04:02:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA09957 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 04:02:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.03 #1) id 0zRaI3-00078R-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:00:55 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id MAA02285 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:00:46 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06606; Fri, 9 Oct 98 12:00:46 BST Message-Id: <361DECDC.C249DD35@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 12:00:44 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: A novel Y2K solution (humour) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone fancy porting FreeBSD?..... > A lower cost alternative for Desktop conversions that > also addresses the Y2K (Year 2000) issue has been defined: > > The goal is to remove all computers from the desktop by > Jan, 1999. > > Instead, everyone will be provided with an Etch-A-Sketch. > > There are many sound reasons for doing this: > > 1. No Y2K problems > 2. No technical glitches, keeping work from being done. > 3. No more wasted time reading and writing emails. > 4. Substantial hardware cost savings. > > Frequently Asked Questions from the Etch-A-Sketch Help Desk: > > Q: My Etch-A-Sketch has all of these funny little > lines all over the screen. What do I do? > A: Pick it up and shake it > > Q: How do I turn my Etch-A-Sketch off? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: What's the shortcut for Undo? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: How do I create a New Document window? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: How do I set the background and foreground to > the same colour? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: What is the proper procedure for rebooting my > Etch-A-Sketch? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: How do I delete a document on my Etch-A-Sketch? > A: Pick it up and shake it. > > Q: How do I save my Etch-A-Sketch document? > A: Don't shake it. -- When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane. Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 04:51:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA17404 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 04:51:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA17383 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 04:51:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from remote.my.domain (root@host-209-214-74-144.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.74.144]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA04736; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by remote.my.domain (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id HAA00537; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:52:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810091152.HAA00537@remote.my.domain> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Nicholas Charles Brawn cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Oct 1998 19:46:24 +1000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 07:52:02 -0400 From: Jerry Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Nick, Jerry Hicks: 37 -- going on 17 (father) Nate Hicks: 17 -- going on 37 (son) :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks jerry.hicks@glenayre.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 05:04:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19090 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 05:04:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (intschool.easynet.co.uk [194.72.37.214]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA18975; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 05:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuart@internationalschool.co.uk) Received: from internationalschool.co.uk (bamboo [10.0.0.70]) by internationalschool.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13827; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:02:29 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <361DFB7D.4EF2D787@internationalschool.co.uk> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 13:03:09 +0100 From: Stuart Henderson Organization: http://www.internationalschool.co.uk/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" CC: "James D. Butt" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement References: <199810041551.IAA21120@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > If anything things like this should be a clue to anyone that microsoft > > stuff is bad... > > > > As far as I am concerned anyone staying with the NT platform after reading > > much better: take a look at this link: > http://www.microsoft.com/misc/backstage/solutions.htm > > they claim "More than 6 Gigabytes (GB) of successful downloads a day" I wonder if a web page where you get the top bar and nothing else counts as a successful download? I can't see how they would tell the difference! I like this bit on the column_t2_1 page... Wanke: We needed to figure out why our servers were crashing, which requires them to be taken offline for debugging. Although not as funny as the bit about eating their own dog food :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 05:05:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA19304 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 05:05:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (banshee.cs.uow.edu.au [130.130.188.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA19250 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 05:05:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au) Received: (from ncb05@localhost) by banshee.cs.uow.edu.au (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id WAA26797; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:04:41 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:04:40 +1000 (EST) From: Nicholas Charles Brawn X-Sender: ncb05@banshee.cs.uow.edu.au To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) In-Reply-To: <19981009200951.60385@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > Has age got something to do with interest in games, or is this > particular game age-restricted? Maybe this is explained in web page you > mentioned, but I can't read bright white and yellow on black. (Does > that give you some clue to the next question?) The page described a game that the developers are porting from windows to Linux. I instantly wondered whether we would ever have a similar situation with FreeBSD, and whether the actual userbase is of the same demographics as that of the average gamer. Of course, my perception of the "average" gamer is someone between 15-25, with regard to age at least. > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > > 20-25, or 25+? > > What you're asking is, out of freebsd-chat readers (a very small group > of FreeBSD users, possibly older than on our other lists but not > necessarily), what are the ages of those list members who are both > willing to reveal their ages and also think it is worth answering. True, but I don't see why it's such a problem. If you don't wish to reply to my mail, there's no pressure to. > > Nick (who just fits into the 16-20 age bracket) > > Tell me, why is it that people in this age group are so obsessed with > other people's ages? I never see older people take much interest in > ages, but teenagers can't relax until they know. Meeting strangers on > the Internet must must be awfully uncomfortable for you. I am "obsessed" by your definition, simply because I feel myself to be a minority - a teenager whose choise of operating system is unix, and whose personal preference is FreeBSD. I'm curious as to how many others my age there are out there. And with regard to meeting strangers on the internet - that's never been much concern, as you soon learn to judge someone based on their mental age, and by their actions and words. From experience, many a 15yo has acted in a more mature way than some 30yo's i've met. Of course, there are still a large number of immature people out there, regardless of age. :) > Anyway, you don't have an age bracket for me that I could point to > without being misleading :-) Is it still OK if I play games? Sure. My main interest was in determining what the demographics - age-wise are with regards to FreeBSD users. And the hope that there are more young 'uns like me taking it up. :) > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > Nick -- Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 06:39:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA03233 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 06:39:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (crbowman.erols.com [209.122.47.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA03227 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 06:39:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from fermion (fermion [10.0.1.2]) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA02821; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:34:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Message-Id: <199810091434.JAA02821@quark.ChrisBowman.com> X-Sender: crb@quark X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 21:31:01 -0400 To: Nicholas Charles Brawn From: "Christopher R. Bowman" Subject: Re: age check :) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:46 PM 10/9/98 +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: >After seeing a recent article on slashdot, about a new game that's being >ported to Linux (http://www.linuxpower.org/display_item.phtml?id=65), I >was curious at the demographics of the FreeBSD userbase, and whether >we'd have enuf young 'uns to justify a port of similar games in the >future. Plus, it's interesting to know. :) > >As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, >20-25, or 25+? 29 -------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com http://www.ChrisBowman.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 06:44:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA04099 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 06:44:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA04082 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 06:44:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bear@mediaone.net) Received: from satan.demon.net (we-24-130-60-145.we.mediaone.net [24.130.60.145]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id GAA01263 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 06:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 06:50:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Joey Garcia X-Sender: bear@satan.demon.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > 20-25, or 25+? I'm 23 years old, although I'm not much into games anymore. I used to love Nintendo. I even had an Atari 2600 way back in the days. I think I still have it in some box somewhere in the garage. Well, that's all I gotta say. :) Catch you later, Joey bear Garcia To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 07:10:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA08173 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:10:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stade.demon.co.uk (stade.demon.co.uk [158.152.29.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA08151 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA02500 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:15:08 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Message-ID: <19981009141508.B1341@stade.co.uk> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:15:08 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Nicholas Charles Brawn on Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 07:46:24PM +1000 Organization: Stade Computers Ltd, UK X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 07:46:24PM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > 20-25, or 25+? 25+ (45, a grandfather, growing old disgracefully ....) -- Adrian Wontroba, Stade Computers Limited. phone: (+44) 121 681 6677 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 07:25:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA09247 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:25:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from satsuma.mail.easynet.net (satsuma.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA09223 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:25:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from c.raven@ukonline.co.uk) Received: from hertz.ukonline.co.uk ([195.40.5.13] ident=qmailr) by satsuma.mail.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 2.02 #3) id 0zRdUV-00058g-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:25:59 +0100 Received: (qmail 6875 invoked from network); 9 Oct 1998 14:38:21 -0000 Received: from lon6-2.ukonline.co.uk (HELO ukonline.co.uk) (195.40.113.130) by hertz.ukonline.co.uk with SMTP; 9 Oct 1998 14:38:21 -0000 Message-ID: <361E1CC1.A377C117@ukonline.co.uk> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 15:25:05 +0100 From: Christopher Raven Organization: CIAN X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicholas Charles Brawn CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > > After seeing a recent article on slashdot, about a new game that's being > ported to Linux (http://www.linuxpower.org/display_item.phtml?id=65), I > was curious at the demographics of the FreeBSD userbase, and whether > we'd have enuf young 'uns to justify a port of similar games in the > future. Plus, it's interesting to know. :) > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > 20-25, or 25+? > > Cheers, > Nick (who just fits into the 16-20 age bracket) > 26 yrs old BTW, most of the Quakers (yes Quake 2 sucks) I know (a lot) are my age ~ 25+. A likely reason is that a lot of professionals play from work, a lot of the guys/girls I know are systems admins/programers or at university. rgds Chris R. -- [ Christopher Raven [ E-mail: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk [ ICQ: 2254369 [ To err is human, to power is FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 07:50:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13601 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:50:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pompano.pcola.gulf.net (pompano.pcola.gulf.net [198.69.72.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13552 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:50:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from calvin@pompano.pcola.gulf.net) Received: from localhost (calvin@localhost) by pompano.pcola.gulf.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id JAA06369; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:48:27 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:48:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Calvin M Meloon To: rssh@grad.kiev.ua cc: Nicholas Charles Brawn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) In-Reply-To: <361DEB37.828C68C@Shevchenko.Kiev.UA> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > And my favorite game is still tetris. > (Interesting, than my coworkers in age 20-25 all prefer Doom) > tetris (the text version) is still my favorite as well. That also gives my age... :-) _____ __ _ / ___/__ _/ / __(_)__ Gulf Coast Internet Calvin M. Meloon / /__/ _ `/ / |/ / / _ \ Pensacola, FL Unix Administrator \___/\_,_/_/|___/_/_//_/ (850)438-5700 writer of code ~~~~ calvin@gulf.net ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Proponent of FreeBSD To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 08:40:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20056 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20039 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:40:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id IAA14256; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:40:26 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id IAA29646; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:40:25 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:40:12 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Mark Ovens cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A novel Y2K solution (humour) In-Reply-To: <361DECDC.C249DD35@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Mark Ovens wrote: > When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane. > >Mark Ovens, CNC Applications Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd >Sheet Metal CAD/CAM Solutions >mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com I have a special request of you. I have a friend who is getting started in his CS degree. He is currently a journeyman machinist and a CNC programmer. Would it be OK if I put him in touch with you? This would be so he can get an idea of where he might expect his school and experience to take him. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 08:59:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA23618 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:59:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us (taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us [165.29.134.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA23611 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 08:59:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcoffman@taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us) Received: from localhost (jcoffman@localhost) by taurus.oursc.k12.ar.us (8.9.0/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA28603 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:05:27 -0500 Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 11:05:27 -0500 (CDT) From: Jon Misc Reply-To: Jon Misc To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm in the 16-20 group (fairly close to 20) Jonnie On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > After seeing a recent article on slashdot, about a new game that's being > ported to Linux (http://www.linuxpower.org/display_item.phtml?id=65), I > was curious at the demographics of the FreeBSD userbase, and whether > we'd have enuf young 'uns to justify a port of similar games in the > future. Plus, it's interesting to know. :) > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > 20-25, or 25+? > > Cheers, > Nick (who just fits into the 16-20 age bracket) > > -- > Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb > Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 09:03:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24604 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:03:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA24535 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:03:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id MAA26353; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:03:03 -0400 Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:03:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Joey Garcia cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Joey Garcia wrote: > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > > 20-25, or 25+? > > > I'm 23 years old, although I'm not much into games anymore. I used to > love Nintendo. I even had an Atari 2600 way back in the days. I think I > still have it in some box somewhere in the garage. 28, and had an original pong. Bought for 5 bucks from Robert Hall Village (or something close to that...old, dead, dept. store) during their 'We're broke, and really need our inventory to go away' sale. Jamie Bowden -- Systems Administrator, iTRiBE.net If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 09:40:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02259 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:40:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA01931 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 09:39:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 29426 invoked by uid 1003); 9 Oct 1998 12:38:20 -0000 Message-ID: <19981009143819.A27517@rucus.ru.ac.za> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 14:38:19 +0200 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Nicholas Charles Brawn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: wjv@cityip.co.za Subject: Re: GPL kills KDE distribution References: <361D9EF4.42B85935@verinet.com> <19981009112338.A29959@cityip.co.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981009112338.A29959@cityip.co.za>; from Johann Visagie on Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 11:23:38AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri 1998-10-09 (11:23), Johann Visagie wrote: > > So where does that leave Linux? "The Windows95 of the Unix world"? ;-) > > -- V We (the FreeBSD people who inhabit the channel) have been using that as a slogan whenever there's a Linux vs FreeBSD fight in #linux (on ZAnet). :) (On the first day we started #FreeBSD, we had 11 of the 27 #linux people in there too, and we're now on our second day.) (of course, what we really need is some sort of IRC channel symlink, so we can all sit in something like #unix, and people who join #linux and #FreeBSD actually go there, but anyway *grin*) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 10:36:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09954 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:36:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gamma.aei.ca (gamma.aei.ca [206.123.6.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09894 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 10:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from malartre@aei.ca) Received: from aei.ca (dialA35.aei.ca [206.123.6.73]) by gamma.aei.ca (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02707; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:35:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <361E493B.9DA45671@aei.ca> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 13:34:51 -0400 From: Malartre X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicholas Charles Brawn CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > > After seeing a recent article on slashdot, about a new game that's being > ported to Linux (http://www.linuxpower.org/display_item.phtml?id=65), I > was curious at the demographics of the FreeBSD userbase, and whether > we'd have enuf young 'uns to justify a port of similar games in the > future. Plus, it's interesting to know. :) > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > 20-25, or 25+? > > Cheers, > Nick (who just fits into the 16-20 age bracket) Hey you!.. I'm 15 and proud of it ;-) -- [Malartre][malartre@aei.ca][http://www.aei.ca/~malartre/] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 12:12:35 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27657 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:12:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27650 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:12:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id MAA25144; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id MAA01125; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:10:00 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id NAA21937; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:09:57 -0600 Message-ID: <361E5F84.14E9660@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 13:09:56 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: Nicholas Charles Brawn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) References: <19981009200951.60385@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 07:46:24PM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > > 20-25, or 25+? > > What you're asking is, out of freebsd-chat readers (a very small group > of FreeBSD users, possibly older than on our other lists but not > necessarily), what are the ages of those list members who are both > willing to reveal their ages and also think it is worth answering. That's a pretty interesting grouping, too. 25+ covers a LOT of age, and I for one cannot determine why we would ALL get lumped together. (Oops, let out what category I'm in there, huh?) This category not only covers me, my siblings and spouse, but also my parents, and all those people Willard Scott talks about in the morning. You're assuming ALL OF US have the same level of interest in your game? You're most decidedly wrong. Unless you're looking for potential students -- is this for FreeMathBlaster or something like that? Perhaps you should just enquire about: o Primary school o Secondary school o Undergraduate o Postgraduate o They didn't have schools when I was little -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 12:33:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00937 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:33:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00915 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:33:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@best.com) Received: from localhost (jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) with SMTP id MAA11961; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:32:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: shell6.ba.best.com: jkb owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:32:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jan B. Koum " X-Sender: jkb@shell6.ba.best.com To: Nicholas Charles Brawn cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org 20-25 and I almost never play games.. just don't get them.. :) -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: >After seeing a recent article on slashdot, about a new game that's being >ported to Linux (http://www.linuxpower.org/display_item.phtml?id=65), I >was curious at the demographics of the FreeBSD userbase, and whether >we'd have enuf young 'uns to justify a port of similar games in the >future. Plus, it's interesting to know. :) > >As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, >20-25, or 25+? > >Cheers, >Nick (who just fits into the 16-20 age bracket) > >-- >Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb >Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 12:34:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01167 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from terror.hungry.com (terror.hungry.com [199.181.107.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA01115 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:34:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fn@hungry.com) Received: (qmail 18440 invoked by uid 507); 9 Oct 1998 19:33:48 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: fwtk and skey authorization References: From: Faried Nawaz <__undead@LISP-READER.Hungry.COM> Date: 09 Oct 1998 12:33:47 -0700 In-Reply-To: Jeff@Wagsky.com's message of 9 Oct 1998 08:50:43 -0700 Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.4.37/XEmacs 19.16 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeff@Wagsky.com (Jeff Kletsky) writes: authsrv# passwd jeff "some passwrod phrase typed here" /usr/libexec/ld.so: Undefined symbol "_MD4Init" called from authsrv:/usr/lib/libskey.so.2.0 at 0x2003d218 Any suggestions as to what I've missed? Is authsrv linked with libmd? I think you might need to place -lmd in your makefile. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 12:57:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05993 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:57:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA05965; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:57:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id MAA25439; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id MAA02089; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 12:52:48 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id NAA22208; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:52:47 -0600 Message-ID: <361E698F.A03C843E@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 13:52:47 -0600 From: Wes Peters Reply-To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stuart Henderson CC: "Jonathan M. Bresler" , "James D. Butt" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement References: <199810041551.IAA21120@hub.freebsd.org> <361DFB7D.4EF2D787@internationalschool.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stuart Henderson wrote: > > Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > If anything things like this should be a clue to anyone that microsoft > > > stuff is bad... > > > > > > As far as I am concerned anyone staying with the NT platform after reading > > > > much better: take a look at this link: > > http://www.microsoft.com/misc/backstage/solutions.htm > > > > they claim "More than 6 Gigabytes (GB) of successful downloads a day" > > I wonder if a web page where you get the top bar and nothing else counts as a > successful download? I can't see how they would tell the difference! > > I like this bit on the column_t2_1 page... > > Wanke: We needed to figure out why our servers were crashing, which > requires them to be taken offline for debugging. We oughtta write up a FreeBSD/Walnut Creek version of this page and shout it's existance from the highest treetops. Sounds like a job for "The Advocates," thus I've cc'd them and directed followups there. I'm game to do the writing, if someone can help me with statistics. ;^) -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 13:37:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA13996 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:37:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail13.digital.com (mail13.digital.com [192.208.46.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA13891 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:36:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from perry@zso.dec.com) Received: from rust.zso.dec.com (rust.zso.dec.com [16.64.0.1]) by mail13.digital.com (8.8.8/8.8.8/WV1.0h) with SMTP id QAA09857 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:35:36 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wakko.zso.dec.com by rust.zso.dec.com (5.65/DECwest-CLUSTRIX-mwd-12Dec94) id AA27883; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:35:34 -0700 From: perry@zso.dec.com (Reginald Perry) To: Subject: RE: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:32:21 -0700 Message-Id: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F312@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD22C22C@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Importance: Normal X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2120.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The problem is that the author asserted that the reason FreeBSD+Apache did not get those gains is because of a cache problem with FreeBSD+Apache. In order to back that statement up there needed to be another set of data showing max ops/second vs. amount of RAM and then some text stating that they talked to someone associated with FreeBSD who indeed verifyed that it was a cache problem. I would have then just posted a message saying that there is an interesting article in PC mag that is suprisingly positive about FreeBSD. I wonder if M$ have been missing their monthly payments. :-) -Reggie -----Original Message----- From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Marc Slemko Sent: Thursday, October 08, 1998 6:27 PM To: lcremean@tidalwave.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 04:16:46PM -0700, Reginald Perry wrote: > > The answer seems to be that the statement about the cache is incorrect, but > > that there seems to be a bottleneck somewhere, but 1) its unclear where, 2) > > its unclear that its a problem. > > I read that article, and that statement about cache just seems to be a total > non-sequitur. It flies right in the face of the graph they gave, and the It is completely consistent with the graph. The graph is clients vs. ops with _one_ amount of RAM. They are saying that with an increasing amount of RAM, NT gets more gains. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 15:19:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA04840 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:19:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA04738; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 15:19:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id SAA25214; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:18:50 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:18:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG cc: Stuart Henderson , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , "James D. Butt" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-Reply-To: <361E698F.A03C843E@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > We oughtta write up a FreeBSD/Walnut Creek version of this page and shout > it's existance from the highest treetops. Sounds like a job for "The > Advocates," thus I've cc'd them and directed followups there. I agree there, the thing I would like to see on it is a daily output of how much traffic wcarchive puts out. I think david has a script but he only publishes results when he breaks a previous record, I would like to see the results published daily. Our worst day probably equals at least a week of MS's servers being online traffic wise. Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 16:59:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24204 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:59:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA24171 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 16:59:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (willow3.verinet.com [199.45.181.35]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id RAA25717; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:59:11 -0600 Received: from verinet.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA27389; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:29:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Message-ID: <361E9C58.DBA08B2C@verinet.com> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 17:29:28 -0600 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b1 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicholas Charles Brawn CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > > After seeing a recent article on slashdot, about a new game that's being > ported to Linux (http://www.linuxpower.org/display_item.phtml?id=65), I > was curious at the demographics of the FreeBSD userbase, and whether > we'd have enuf young 'uns to justify a port of similar games in the > future. Plus, it's interesting to know. :) > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > 20-25, or 25+? > > Cheers, > Nick (who just fits into the 16-20 age bracket) > > -- > Email: ncb@poboxes.com - http://www.poboxes.com/ncb > Key fingerprint = DE 30 33 D3 16 91 C8 8D A7 F8 70 03 B7 77 1A 2A > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message 28. I am attempting to write a game. Does that count? -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 17:54:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05521 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:54:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (st-lcremean.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA05498 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 17:54:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) id UAA27879 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:54:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19981009205435.A27851@tidalwave.net> Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:54:35 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Me? I'm 21. :) -- Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet) A! JW223 YWD+++^ri P&B++ SL+++^i GDF B&M KK--i MD+++i P++ I++++ Did $++ E5/10/70/3c/73ac/95/96 H2 PonPippi Ay77 M | mailto:lcremean@tidalwave.net http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net | Powered by FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 18:08:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08088 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:08:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ridge.spiritone.com (ridge.spiritone.com [205.139.108.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08027 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:08:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dionn@spiritone.com) From: dionn@spiritone.com Received: from spiritone.com (us4b-111.spiritone.com [206.98.120.111]) by ridge.spiritone.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA31518; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:07:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <361EABB5.214DBC72@spiritone.com> Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 17:35:02 -0700 Organization: The Foundation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nicholas Charles Brawn CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) (I miss Wolfie) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9-Oct-98 @ 09:46:24 wrote: > > After seeing a recent article on slashdot, about a new game that's being > ported to Linux (http://www.linuxpower.org/display_item.phtml?id=65), I > was curious at the demographics of the FreeBSD userbase, and whether > we'd have enuf young 'uns to justify a port of similar games in the > future. Plus, it's interesting to know. :) > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > 20-25, or 25+? Age is a state of mind, but I'm out of my mind at the moment so I can't check which state it's in. The calendar says I'll be 20 in six months-- something else for me to not cope with. Just who the H E double-hockey- sticks ever said that computer games are for kids? Just ask my dad, he's fifty and just as immature as any kid I know. I love playing XDoom, I changed all the shaved gorillas into Barneys, what fun! The look on my five-year-old cousin's face when I tear into a the Purple Bastard with my chainsaw is just precious! Is it just me, or is that hissing sound unfitting for the cacodaemons? Why someone would want to spend thousands on machine so they can play games that are nothing more than steroid-crazed rehashes of Duke is beyond me. Damnit, they're too real anyway, gives me nightmares. 30-foot tall mechdaemons indeed. Whatever happened to the good ol' days when we ran around shooting Nazis and listened to those awesome sound effects on the internal speaker? Which reminds me, I need to fix my Adlib card and my 5.25" floppy drive so I can get Lemmings reinstalled. Now if you'll excuse me, I seem to be out of Jolt Cola and Dr. Pepper. Haze, who's looking for a new Nintendo light gun. -- Knowledge is the perception of truth distorted by reality To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 18:08:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08095 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:08:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA08029 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:08:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA09633; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:37:56 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA02190; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:37:52 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981010103752.I3369@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:37:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters , Sue Blake Cc: Nicholas Charles Brawn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) References: <19981009200951.60385@welearn.com.au> <361E5F84.14E9660@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <361E5F84.14E9660@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 01:09:56PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 X-Mutt-References: <361E5F84.14E9660@softweyr.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 9 October 1998 at 13:09:56 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: >> >> On Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 07:46:24PM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: >> >>> As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, >>> 20-25, or 25+? >> >> What you're asking is, out of freebsd-chat readers (a very small group >> of FreeBSD users, possibly older than on our other lists but not >> necessarily), what are the ages of those list members who are both >> willing to reveal their ages and also think it is worth answering. > > That's a pretty interesting grouping, too. 25+ covers a LOT of age, and > I for one cannot determine why we would ALL get lumped together. (Oops, > let out what category I'm in there, huh?) This category not only covers > me, my siblings and spouse, but also my parents, and all those people > Willard Scott talks about in the morning. You're assuming ALL OF US have > the same level of interest in your game? You're most decidedly wrong. Come, come, he's just viewing things from his perspective. Agreed, 25+ is not a useful category. I'm old enough to remember the last time somebody asked this question (about 2 years ago). At that time, we discovered that there were a surprising number of over 40s and over 50s in the FreeBSD team. I haven't seen any admit to this kind of age so far this time round. In fact, the ones who answered did fit quite well into Nicholas Charles's categories. If you want to be serious, though, 1. Wait until 3.0 is out of the door. A lot of the key players in FreeBSD read -chat, but they're too busy right now. 2. Take categories in a maximum of 10 year increments, or just plain ask "(int) how_old_are_you ()". Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 18:44:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13338 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:44:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (suebla.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13320 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 18:44:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA24253; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:44:04 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19981010114400.38126@welearn.com.au> Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:44:01 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: Wes Peters , Nicholas Charles Brawn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) References: <19981009200951.60385@welearn.com.au> <361E5F84.14E9660@softweyr.com> <19981010103752.I3369@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19981010103752.I3369@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 10:37:52AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 10:37:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > I'm old enough to remember the last time somebody asked this question > (about 2 years ago). At that time, we discovered that there were a > surprising number of over 40s and over 50s in the FreeBSD team. Has there ever been a gender check? :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 19:31:14 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19464 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:31:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cyclops.xtra.co.nz (cyclops.xtra.co.nz [202.27.184.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19443 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:31:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker (210-55-210-87.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.210.87]) by cyclops.xtra.co.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA00717; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 15:30:14 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199810100230.PAA00717@cyclops.xtra.co.nz> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Sue Blake Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 15:30:20 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: age check :) Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19981010114400.38126@welearn.com.au> References: <19981010103752.I3369@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 10:37:52AM +0930 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01b) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10 Oct 98, at 11:44, Sue Blake wrote: > On Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 10:37:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > I'm old enough to remember the last time somebody asked this question > > (about 2 years ago). At that time, we discovered that there were a > > surprising number of over 40s and over 50s in the FreeBSD team. > > Has there ever been a gender check? :-) Sue volunteers! -- Dan Langille DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - my [mis]adventures http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 19:31:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19490 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:31:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19460 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:31:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id WAA14859 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:31:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:31:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Funny cartoon from A.S.R Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not really FreeBSD related but I found it amusing. Take it whatever context you wish :) www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/98oct/19981008.html Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 19:43:57 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA20887 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:43:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.auracom.net (mail1.auracom.net [165.154.140.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA20882 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:43:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from arthur@col.auracom.com) Received: from outpost.col.auracom.com (ts2-28.tru.auracom.com [165.154.114.92]) by mail1.auracom.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA19021; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:46:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.2 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 23:44:13 -0300 (ADT) Reply-To: arthur@col.auracom.com From: Mike Pulsifer To: Nicholas Charles Brawn Subject: RE: age check :) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 09-Oct-98 Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > 20-25, or 25+? .. 25+6 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - arthur@col.auracom.com In a world without fences, is there a need for Gates --end-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 19:53:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA21913 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:53:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA21908 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:53:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA00301 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 22:53:13 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) In-Reply-To: <19981010103752.I3369@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Greg Lehey wrote: > Come, come, he's just viewing things from his perspective. Agreed, > 25+ is not a useful category. > > I'm old enough to remember the last time somebody asked this question > (about 2 years ago). At that time, we discovered that there were a > surprising number of over 40s and over 50s in the FreeBSD team. I > haven't seen any admit to this kind of age so far this time round. It just takes us a little longer. :( 47 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 20:07:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA23186 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:07:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA23181 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:07:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dag-erli@ifi.uio.no) Received: from hrotti.ifi.uio.no (2602@hrotti.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.15]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id FAA23025; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 05:07:26 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from dag-erli@localhost) by hrotti.ifi.uio.no ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 05:07:25 +0200 (MET DST) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: perry@zso.dec.com (Reginald Perry) Cc: Subject: Re: PC Magazine 10/20/1998 Article about FreeBSD References: <69CAF7F9AF57D2118D9A0000F881B4DD02F312@zsoexc1.zso.dec.com> Organization: University of Oslo, Department of Informatics X-url: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~dag-erli/ X-other-addresses: 'finger dag-erli@ifi.uio.no' for a list X-disclaimer-1: The views expressed in this article are mine alone, and do X-disclaimer-2: not necessarily coincide with those of any organisation or X-disclaimer-3: company with which I am or have been affiliated. X-Stop-Spam: http://www.cauce.org/ From: dag-erli@ifi.uio.no (Dag-Erling C. =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= ) Date: 10 Oct 1998 05:07:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: perry@zso.dec.com's message of "Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:32:21 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 37 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id UAA23182 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org perry@zso.dec.com (Reginald Perry) writes: > The problem is that the author asserted that the reason FreeBSD+Apache did > not get those gains is because of a cache problem with FreeBSD+Apache. In > order to back that statement up there needed to be another set of data > showing max ops/second vs. amount of RAM and then some text stating that > they talked to someone associated with FreeBSD who indeed verifyed that it > was a cache problem. I think it must have been part misunderstanding and part misexpression. The cause for the difference is (as far as I've understood) not a "cache problem in Apache + FreeBSD" but rather the fact that IIS4 caches documents aggressively (memory permitting) in order to look good in benchmarks. Apache doesn't, because it doesn't work on a real-life high-traffic site and it's not worth it on a small low-traffic site... Interestingly, I ran into Gisle Hannemyr (founder of Norway's first commercial ISP) earlier today in a lab at Uni; he was busy scanning a box of Pep (a retired brand of detergent) to make icons for a "file washer" program he maintains (called pep), and I was busy rebooting one of my test boxes after a make world (which hadn't run to completion, but that's a different story). He's always been a BSD fan, and keeps recommending FreeBSD to customers when he does consulting (I think he switched over from BSDI). I mentioned the benchmark; he said he was regularly impressed by FreeBSD's performance and especially its network throughput. Not bad coming from the guy who used to Norway's number one expert on commercial Internet solutions. BTW, Gisle has a very interesting home page (he calls it a virtual workbook): . I especially recommend the nerd test. DES (it's been a loooong day...) -- Dag-Erling Smørgrav - dag-erli@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 20:36:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA27848 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:36:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27820 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:36:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20029; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:34:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810100334.UAA20029@implode.root.com> To: Greg Lehey cc: Wes Peters , Sue Blake , Nicholas Charles Brawn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:37:52 +0930." <19981010103752.I3369@freebie.lemis.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 20:34:19 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Come, come, he's just viewing things from his perspective. Agreed, >25+ is not a useful category. > >I'm old enough to remember the last time somebody asked this question >(about 2 years ago). At that time, we discovered that there were a >surprising number of over 40s and over 50s in the FreeBSD team. I The majority of the FreeBSD core team (including myself), with exception of perhaps 2 or 3 people, are in the 30-40 range. This make me feel old for some reason. :-) -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 20:48:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00976 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:48:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00953; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:48:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA20171; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 20:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810100347.UAA20171@implode.root.com> To: Open Systems Networking cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Stuart Henderson , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , "James D. Butt" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Oct 1998 18:18:50 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 20:47:04 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> We oughtta write up a FreeBSD/Walnut Creek version of this page and shout >> it's existance from the highest treetops. Sounds like a job for "The >> Advocates," thus I've cc'd them and directed followups there. > >I agree there, the thing I would like to see on it is a daily output of >how much traffic wcarchive puts out. I think david has a script but he >only publishes results when he breaks a previous record, I would like to >see the results published daily. Our worst day probably equals at least a >week of MS's servers being online traffic wise. I'm a bit nervous about providing detailed information on a daily basis, but I don't see a problem with providing totals. I'll consider it. Wcarchive has been averaging around 400GB/day for several months now. There are various upgrades that will occur in the next 6 weeks that should get us out of this rut. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 23:14:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22811 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:14:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stratos.net (pm3-3-1.stratos.net [207.86.132.129]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22616 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:12:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) Received: from stratos.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stratos.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10458; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 02:18:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) Message-Id: <199810100618.CAA10458@stratos.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Sue Blake cc: Greg Lehey , Wes Peters , Nicholas Charles Brawn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:44:01 +1000." <19981010114400.38126@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 02:18:54 -0400 From: Rob Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:44:01 +1000 (Fri 21:44 EDT), Sue Blake wrote: > On Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 10:37:52AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > I'm old enough to remember the last time somebody asked this question > > (about 2 years ago). At that time, we discovered that there were a > > surprising number of over 40s and over 50s in the FreeBSD team. > > Has there ever been a gender check? :-) > > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- You know, this is starting to look like IRC. -Rob [Who is only several weeks away from having my auto insurance lowered, /allegedly/] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 23:26:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24547 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:26:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24485 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:26:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA10754; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 15:56:04 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) id PAA20504; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 15:56:02 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19981010155602.V3369@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 15:56:02 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Open Systems Networking , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Funny cartoon from A.S.R References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Watson on Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 10:31:04PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 9 October 1998 at 22:31:04 -0400, Chris Watson wrote: > > Not really FreeBSD related but I found it amusing. Take it whatever > context you wish :) > > www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/98oct/19981008.html Well, think of "Linux" as including "FreeBSD" in this context. Also, there's more context here than meets the eye. Look back to the beginning of September, where they had the same pain (no, doubtless more) migrating in the other direction. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 23:31:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA24914 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:31:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Tasha.STARDreams.org (maccess-01-070.magna.com.au [203.111.85.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA24895; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:31:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kevla@studentmail.dis.unimelb.edu.au) Received: from EventHorizon (EventHorizon.STARDreams.org [10.144.144.1]) by Tasha.STARDreams.org (8.9.1/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA12413; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 02:29:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from kevla@studentmail.dis.unimelb.edu.au) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981010162322.00b77360@studentmail.dis.unimelb.edu.au> X-Sender: kevla@studentmail.dis.unimelb.edu.au X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 16:23:22 +1000 To: dg@root.com, Open Systems Networking From: Kevin Lam Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Stuart Henderson , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , "James D. Butt" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810100347.UAA20171@implode.root.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 20:47 10/9/98 -0700, you wrote: > I'm a bit nervous about providing detailed information on a daily basis, >but I don't see a problem with providing totals. I'll consider it. > Wcarchive has been averaging around 400GB/day for several months now. There >are various upgrades that will occur in the next 6 weeks that should get us >out of this rut. The detailed information about wcarchive's performance can already be found at http://www.emsphone.com/stats.. about how many MB/sec it puts out on average, how many users, etc. Nothing really confidential, not like someone would try and kill wcarchive would they :P -- K "Deliver yesterday, code today, think tomorrow." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Oct 9 23:54:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27201 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:54:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.webspan.net (mail.webspan.net [206.154.70.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27043; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 23:54:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from opsys@mail.webspan.net) Received: from orion.webspan.net (orion.webspan.net [206.154.70.5]) by mail.webspan.net (WEBSPAN/970608) with SMTP id CAA19122; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 02:53:38 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 02:53:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Open Systems Networking X-Sender: opsys@orion.webspan.net To: Kevin Lam cc: dg@root.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Stuart Henderson , "Jonathan M. Bresler" , "James D. Butt" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19981010162322.00b77360@studentmail.dis.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The detailed information about wcarchive's performance can already be found > at http://www.emsphone.com/stats.. about how many MB/sec it puts out on > average, how many users, etc. Nothing really confidential, not like someone > would try and kill wcarchive would they :P emsphone only shows the ammount of data being sent or received by the NIC card itself, not how much data has been sent TOTAL from wcarchive from a certain time to a certain time. Were looking for an accumulative volume meter, not an average of how much data on an ethernet segment is being sent. Chris -- "You both seem to be ignoring the fact that the networking market is driven by so-called 'IT professionals' these days, most of whom can't tell the difference between an ARP and a carp." -Wes Peters ===================================| Open Systems Networking And Consulting. FreeBSD 2.2.7 is available now! | Phone: 316-326-6800 -----------------------------------| 1402 N. Washington, Wellington, KS-67152 FreeBSD: The power to serve! | E-Mail: opsys@open-systems.net http://www.freebsd.org | Consulting-Network Engineering-Security ===================================| http://open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 04:52:27 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA29633 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 04:52:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from www.scancall.no (www.scancall.no [195.139.183.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA29628 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 04:52:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Marius.Bendiksen@scancall.no) Received: from super2.langesund.scancall.no [195.139.183.29] by www with smtp id IZHRFTAJ; Sat, 10 Oct 98 11:52:09 GMT (PowerWeb version 4.04r6) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981010134714.0092da10@mail.scancall.no> X-Sender: Marius@mail.scancall.no X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 13:47:14 +0200 To: Jamie Bowden From: Marius Bendiksen Subject: Re: Two Y chromosomes [ Was: Java-based Crypto Decoder Ring ...] Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19981007174414.C18686@orcrist.mediacity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >So, where I get the version of FreeBSD that runs on organic computers? Actually, if you're good at visualizing, and go through a lot of long- term hypnotherapy, I think it would be possible in one of the following ways: (1) Learn to manually emulate a computer (2) Learn to superimpose a mental image over reality, so solid you can use it Obtw; I'm not subscribed to FreeBSD-chat, so please CC: me. --- Marius Bendiksen, IT-Trainee, ScanCall AS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 06:05:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05301 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 06:05:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA05295 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 06:05:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca) Received: (from taob@localhost) by tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23937; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:04:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:04:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao X-Sender: taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca To: David Greenman cc: tech@cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive picture In-Reply-To: <199810071256.FAA10817@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, David Greenman wrote: > > 9524 copies of my new picture of wcarchive were downloaded yesterday > from wcarchive. If I had known it would be so popular, I would have > had a professional photographer take it with a professional camera. :-) Are those Kingston Datasilos holding the drives? I've got three of them here (but in black ;-)), and they do a very nice job of keeping a shelf full of Cheetah drives cool. -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 07:44:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA12923 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 07:44:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA12915 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 07:44:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from ben by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.05 #3) id 0zRz86-0007DM-00; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:32:18 +0100 Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:32:18 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Nicholas Charles Brawn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) Message-ID: <19981010143218.A27710@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/0.94.3i (FreeBSD 3.0-BETA i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > 20-25, or 25+? 16-20 (16, to be exact) -- Ben Smithurst : ben@scientia.demon.co.uk : http://www.scientia.demon.co.uk/ PGP: 0x99392F7D - 3D 89 87 42 CE CA 93 4C 68 32 0E D5 36 05 3D 16 http://www.scientia.demon.co.uk/ben/pgp-key.html (or use keyservers) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 09:37:24 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA25886 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25860 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:37:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul3.u.washington.edu (root@saul3.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.1]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id JAA26556 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:37:11 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul3.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id JAA00725 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:36:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am as old as the sands of time and I play DESCENT. Did you know that Parallax released DESCENT source code? Yep! It's supposedly requires a watcom(?) assembly compiler or something. If I get really ambitious I may look at it. Descent was one of the best early first person fully 3D games and it still kicks cwache in the ass. It was also an early 3D game that ran over the net. A certain fellow (Jay Cotton) wrote IHHD (internet head to head daemon) and shortly there after KALI was born. KALI was the best 20 bucks I have ever spent on software. If you still use winblows, your should try DESCENT over KALI. Just try not to get to embarassed when you get completely lost and run into walls. A friend of mine even said playing DESCENT on a projection screen made him throw up. The sensation of movement is REALLY that good. Head to head gaming is the only gaming that is truly a challenge. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ | 206-633-5994 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 09:41:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26658 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:41:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26644 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:41:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul4.u.washington.edu (root@saul4.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.2]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with ESMTP id JAA51748; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:41:11 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul4.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW98.06) with SMTP id JAA30978; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:41:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:40:56 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: David Greenman cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Device Drivers for Linux and Intel's annoucement In-Reply-To: <199810100347.UAA20171@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, David Greenman wrote: > Wcarchive has been averaging around 400GB/day for several months now. There >are various upgrades that will occur in the next 6 weeks that should get us >out of this rut. Rut?! Strange comment maybe, but it is nice to know that you guys never rest on your laurels. You know, maybe the net was just low traffic last night. I did a download from ftp.freebsd.org last night and it was hyper fast. Catchya Later, | UW Mechanical Engineering Jason Wells | http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 09:57:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28746 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from relay2.impsat1.com (relay2.impsat1.com [200.31.1.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28731 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:57:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nestorm@impsat1.com.ar) Received: from nes (rrosd10.impsat.net.ar [200.32.116.74]) by relay2.impsat1.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id NAA28544 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 13:55:29 +0300 (GMT) Message-Id: <199810101055.NAA28544@relay2.impsat1.com> From: "NESTOR A. MARTINEZ" To: Subject: Re: age check :) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:26:29 -0300 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1162 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > >As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > >20-25, or 25+? > > 34 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 10:36:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04884 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:36:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mrmell (ppp1511.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.226.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04807 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:36:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: (from tim@localhost) by mrmell (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21152; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 13:32:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Message-ID: <19981010133249.B21109@mrmell> Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 13:32:49 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: Nicholas Charles Brawn , Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) References: <19981009200951.60385@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Nicholas Charles Brawn on Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 10:04:40PM +1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Oct 09, 1998 at 10:04:40PM +1000, Nicholas Charles Brawn wrote: > > Sure. My main interest was in determining what the demographics - > age-wise are with regards to FreeBSD users. And the hope that there are > more young 'uns like me taking it up. :) If you happen to be at university, try comparing the ratio of fourth&fifth years running-Linux:running-FreeBSD to the ratio of first years running-Linux:running-FreeBSD. That'll probably give you a more accurate answer. Probably a little more satisfying answer, too. :) -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 10:43:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06000 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:43:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from papaya.mail.easynet.net (papaya.mail.easynet.net [195.40.1.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA05989 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:43:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@sour.cream.org) Received: (qmail 29223 invoked from network); 10 Oct 1998 17:43:35 -0000 Received: from boothman.easynet.co.uk (194.154.100.117) by papaya.mail.easynet.net with SMTP; 10 Oct 1998 17:43:35 -0000 Received: by Boothman.easynet.co.uk (VPOP3 - Unregistered) with SMTP; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 18:42:37 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981010184237.007aa910@ice.cream.org> X-Sender: andrew@ice.cream.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 18:42:37 +0100 To: ncb05@uow.edu.au From: Andrew Boothman Subject: Re: age check :) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Server: VPOP3 V1.2.0d Unregistered Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You wrote: >As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, >20-25, or 25+? 16-20 :) -- Andrew Boothman http://sour.cream.org PGP Key Available From Public Servers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 11:33:09 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12741 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:33:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (implode.root.com [198.145.90.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12690 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:33:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00509; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810101831.LAA00509@implode.root.com> To: Brian Tao cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive picture In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 10 Oct 1998 09:04:49 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 11:31:32 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, David Greenman wrote: >> >> 9524 copies of my new picture of wcarchive were downloaded yesterday >> from wcarchive. If I had known it would be so popular, I would have >> had a professional photographer take it with a professional camera. :-) > > Are those Kingston Datasilos holding the drives? Yes. > I've got three >of them here (but in black ;-)), and they do a very nice job of >keeping a shelf full of Cheetah drives cool. They do at that. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 16:02:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12847 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 16:02:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12831 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 16:02:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA12419 for ; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 09:02:29 +1000 (EST) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 1998 09:02:28 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) In-Reply-To: <19981010143218.A27710@scientia.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > As a quick check, how many people here are between the ages of 16-20, > > 20-25, or 25+? 25+ Andrew Perry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 18:07:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA24783 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 18:07:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA24767 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 18:06:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id RAA00423 for chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 17:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19981010173427.A228@best.com> Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 17:34:27 -0700 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: ORA Parody on Linux books! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heh.. I find those somewhat funny: http://magic.hurrah.com/~ryan/ora.html -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 19:50:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA01739 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 19:50:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from k6n1.znh.org (dialup13.gaffaneys.com [208.155.161.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA01705 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 19:50:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zach@gaffaneys.com) Received: (from zach@localhost) by k6n1.znh.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA27419; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 02:49:45 GMT (envelope-from zach) Message-ID: <19981010214945.A27330@znh.org> Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 21:49:45 -0500 From: Zach Heilig To: "Jan B. Koum " , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ORA Parody on Linux books! References: <19981010173427.A228@best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981010173427.A228@best.com>; from Jan B. Koum on Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 05:34:27PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 05:34:27PM -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > Heh.. I find those somewhat funny: > http://magic.hurrah.com/~ryan/ora.html Did you notice the 3rd mispronounciation of Linux? :-) -- Zach Heilig If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have to at least consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidæ on our hands (Douglas Adams -- Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 20:00:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA03462 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:00:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA03457 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:00:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.0/8.9.0/best.sh) id TAA15046; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 19:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <19981010195942.A14912@best.com> Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 19:59:42 -0700 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: Zach Heilig , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ORA Parody on Linux books! References: <19981010173427.A228@best.com> <19981010214945.A27330@znh.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981010214945.A27330@znh.org>; from Zach Heilig on Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 09:49:45PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 09:49:45PM -0500, Zach Heilig wrote: > On Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 05:34:27PM -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > > Heh.. I find those somewhat funny: > > http://magic.hurrah.com/~ryan/ora.html > > Did you notice the 3rd mispronounciation of Linux? :-) > > -- > Zach Heilig > If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have to at least consider > the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidæ on > our hands (Douglas Adams -- Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency) No, I don't have audio going at the moment. What does it say? Let me guess - FreeBSD? -- Yan I don't have the password .... + Jan Koum But the path is chainlinked .. | Spelled Jan, pronounced Yan. There. So if you've got the time .... | Web: http://www.best.com/~jkb Set the tone to sync ......... + OS: http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 20:22:10 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05620 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:22:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from k6n1.znh.org (dialup13.gaffaneys.com [208.155.161.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05423 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 20:21:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zach@gaffaneys.com) Received: (from zach@localhost) by k6n1.znh.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA27543; Sun, 11 Oct 1998 03:21:14 GMT (envelope-from zach) Message-ID: <19981010222114.B27330@znh.org> Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 22:21:14 -0500 From: Zach Heilig To: "Jan B. Koum " , Zach Heilig , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ORA Parody on Linux books! References: <19981010173427.A228@best.com> <19981010214945.A27330@znh.org> <19981010195942.A14912@best.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19981010195942.A14912@best.com>; from Jan B. Koum on Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 07:59:42PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 07:59:42PM -0700, Jan B. Koum wrote: > On Sat, Oct 10, 1998 at 09:49:45PM -0500, Zach Heilig wrote: > > Did you notice the 3rd mispronounciation of Linux? :-) > No, I don't have audio going at the moment. What does it say? Let > me guess - FreeBSD? Yep.. The first two seem to be just gibberish (perhaps 'linux' with the audio played backwards). -- Zach Heilig If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, we have to at least consider the possibility that we have a small aquatic bird of the family Anatidæ on our hands (Douglas Adams -- Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 21:10:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA11179 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 21:10:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ninbox.ml.org (hsv1-196.airnet.net [207.242.81.196]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA11151 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 21:10:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ninbox.ml.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA01329; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:07:34 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Message-ID: <36202F06.4C53372E@airnet.net> Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:07:34 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Absolutely None! X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: Greg Lehey , Wes Peters , Nicholas Charles Brawn , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: age check :) References: <19981009200951.60385@welearn.com.au> <361E5F84.14E9660@softweyr.com> <19981010103752.I3369@freebie.lemis.com> <19981010114400.38126@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > > Has there ever been a gender check? :-) > What and risk being sued? -- Kris Kirby UAH Mail UAH CS Home WWW ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 21:27:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA12959 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 21:27:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from RWSystems.net (Commie.RWSystems.net [204.251.23.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA12953; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 21:27:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jwyatt@rwsystr.RWSystems.net) Received: from rwsystr.RWSystems.net([204.251.23.1]) (2936 bytes) by RWSystems.net via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:11:48 -0500 (CDT) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #1 built 1998-Jul-31) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 18:01:04 -0500 (CDT) From: James Wyatt To: Nate Williams cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compiler likes tabs better than spaces?? (was Re: ..logging (the problem is fixed)) In-Reply-To: <199810082218.QAA29900@mt.sri.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Nate Williams wrote: > [ Moved to -chat, as this is really not security related... ] > > Tabs in source can compile a *lot* faster in large C++ source and > > headers. I also used it over NFS to do *nix programming before I got > Now, this is one of those statements I *really* like to see, since it > has no basis on factual data. Using tabs vs. spaces won't make your > program compile measurably faster. Whoever told you this was smoking > something.... btw: I'll answer here (once) because you were rather snippy in your answer, you were wrong and our relay doesn't get -chat. I can understand why your (Free) BS Detector might go off. 8{) I said the same thing a while back when I heard it a while ago, so I measured it. For heavy C++ (lotsa big headers made pretty and readable) and code w/ASCII depictions of the structures and PVCS headers, tabs make a very measurable (and sometimes noticable) difference. If you drop 7 (or 3) char for every tab and have lots of them, your file reads go down, the compiler reads more file per line (thus by a clock, compiles faster 8{), and you save disk space. You also have less IO to your editor and such. Your PVCS (or SCCS/RCS/CVS/etc...) archives will also be smaller. You're right if you note that everything past the precompiler is usually constant, though. The effect is also reduced if your compiler utilizes precompiled headers. Removing any successive whitespace, will also speed things up, but at the expense of readability. OTOH, if one doesn't tabbify, comment, or use headers much one might not notice... 8{( As I said, I *did* time this a while back to measure the effect, so this *is* based on fact and I was *not* smoking anything at the time... 8{) Ron Light, the guy who drove me to Unix showed me how nice it was to 'entab' the system headers and frequent-flyers when I was learning C and unix/xenix long ago. (You'll notice FreeBSDs curses.h has tabs) I also loved Borland when they implemented precompiled headers in Borland C++ back in the Win 3.1 days. Sorry to have wasted your time in replying to me, I'll try to be clearer next time - Jy@ (James Wyatt jwyatt@rwsystems.net) My favorite programming language is still solder - David Gunn KA5WAM To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Oct 10 21:57:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA15875 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 21:57:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from RWSystems.net (Commie.RWSystems.net [204.251.23.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15860 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 21:57:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jwyatt@rwsystr.RWSystems.net) Received: from rwsystr.RWSystems.net([204.251.23.1]) (1611 bytes) by RWSystems.net via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:37:42 -0500 (CDT) (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #1 built 1998-Jul-31) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 18:27:08 -0500 (CDT) From: James Wyatt To: "H. Eckert" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The necessary steps for logging (the problem is fixed) In-Reply-To: <19981010115719.40914@nostromo.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, H. Eckert wrote: > On Thu, Oct 08, 1998 at 11:27:20AM -0500, James Wyatt wrote: > > I *really* liked the (DOS-based) editor 'Multi-Edit' when I used to do > > Win3.1 MultiMedia work. It showed a tab as a small circle, but still > > had the tab-width - the rest was normal spaces. It let you ensure you had > > You may like Sven Guckes' experiments about syntax coloring > involving visible tabs. He made up a syntax-file that even > shows whether leading/trailing whitespace consists of tabs, > spaces, or a mix of both. Thanks. I'm not a vim user, but use vi on FreeBSD, linix (elvis?), AIX, and Sun. I'll look for the FBSD port. > > Wishing vi would support ^T like bash - Jy@ (jwyatt@rwsystems.net) > What does ^T do in bash ? In my tcsh it justs swaps to adjacent chars. Same thing in bash. Someone suggested a macro in vi for 'xp' which I usually use. I found it in bash the same way I find my favorite vi commands, by typo! Thanks - Jy@ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message