From owner-freebsd-small Sun Oct 4 06:02:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA05873 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 06:02:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hda.hda.com (hda-bicnet.bicnet.net [208.220.66.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA05807 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 06:02:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dufault@hda.hda.com) Received: (from dufault@localhost) by hda.hda.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA10533; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 08:54:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Peter Dufault Message-Id: <199810041254.IAA10533@hda.hda.com> Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: <199810032345.TAA21910@whizzo.transsys.com> from "Louis A. Mamakos" at "Oct 3, 98 07:45:30 pm" To: louie@TransSys.COM (Louis A. Mamakos) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 08:54:36 -0400 (EDT) Cc: small@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL25 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Again, I fully agree with you - that's also my intention. And I see a > > Forth -based shell as a means to accomplish it - to glue all these > > elements together, at the same time giving it flexibility and programming > > abilities far beyond those of /bin/sh. > > I can certainly see how having an extensible shell would be a very > attractive thing. But if you expect mere mortals to be able to > run (and extend) the thing, I think a FORTH-based approach is doomed > to fail (again). > > Why wouldn't something based on TCL be a better choice? Sysadmins are > probably more likely to be familiar with it (perhaps due to experience > with "expect"). It has a pretty reasonable syntax, and perhaps > a more familair procedural type model. One thing about Tcl is you have to start thinking about it as if it is LISP to get a handle on it, and in that way the syntax is not intuitive. Also, you have to be disciplined in your coding style if you want things to be reusable: Tcl modularity is inadequate and can only be solved by personal standardization on the approach to modularity. I think incr tcl addresses this but I haven't looked at it. Our own configuration and communication for microcontrollers (we're talking 64K types of things now) tied back to FreeBSD systems is Tcl and Tk based. The "send" (to execute scripts on a trusted host) for distributed systems, the integration with Tk for GUIs, and the "current"cy of it are advantages. Peter -- Peter Dufault (dufault@hda.com) Realtime development, Machine control, HD Associates, Inc. Safety critical systems, Agency approval To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Oct 4 13:40:36 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23379 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 13:40:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23281 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 13:40:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA25526; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:43:58 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:43:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: "Louis A. Mamakos" cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: <199810032345.TAA21910@whizzo.transsys.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Louis A. Mamakos wrote: > > > Again, I fully agree with you - that's also my intention. And I see a > > Forth -based shell as a means to accomplish it - to glue all these > > elements together, at the same time giving it flexibility and programming > > abilities far beyond those of /bin/sh. > > I can certainly see how having an extensible shell would be a very > attractive thing. But if you expect mere mortals to be able to > run (and extend) the thing, I think a FORTH-based approach is doomed > to fail (again). > > Why wouldn't something based on TCL be a better choice? Sysadmins are > probably more likely to be familiar with it (perhaps due to experience > with "expect"). It has a pretty reasonable syntax, and perhaps > a more familair procedural type model. The reason fo this is very simple: size. Give me a complete TCL interpreter in 50kB, and then I'll begin to think seriously about using it. OTOH, if you define a carefully constructed set of Forth words, normal users may even be unaware of running a Forth interpreter, and power-users will have a power tool. Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Oct 4 13:59:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA26573 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 13:59:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA26553 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 13:59:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.64]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA536E; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 22:59:03 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 22:35:19 +0200 To: "Louis A. Mamakos" From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Cc: Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small , Andrzej Bialecki In-Reply-To: <199810032345.TAA21910@whizzo.transsys.com> References: Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 01:45 04-10-98 , Louis A. Mamakos wrote: > >> Again, I fully agree with you - that's also my intention. And I see a >> Forth -based shell as a means to accomplish it - to glue all these >> elements together, at the same time giving it flexibility and programming >> abilities far beyond those of /bin/sh. > >I can certainly see how having an extensible shell would be a very >attractive thing. But if you expect mere mortals to be able to >run (and extend) the thing, I think a FORTH-based approach is doomed >to fail (again). > >Why wouldn't something based on TCL be a better choice? Sysadmins are >probably more likely to be familiar with it (perhaps due to experience >with "expect"). It has a pretty reasonable syntax, and perhaps >a more familair procedural type model. Well the whole issue is NOT the language, but the UI and that UI should be an executable which can alter all the nessecary files (UID of root nessecary or would that be done by daemoning it?). The goal we have to reach is providing a usable frontend regardless of which language we use... As such I have a few suggestions already based on IOS/Shiva SpiderSoftware command syntax: grouping of commands under another keyword, for example: ip, ipx, dial, etc... Also, will we be using autocompletion of partially typed commands? Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhfN94Y752GnxADpEQIecgCg/B9yHuuhrTB5LT3qSfirJ5152pYAoN5x VRz2IaB2lNjpNU4grU+7PHYM =AdjK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Oct 4 14:17:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29772 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:17:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles320.castles.com [208.214.167.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29750 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:17:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06790; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:22:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810042122.OAA06790@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small , Andrzej Bialecki Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 04 Oct 1998 22:35:19 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 14:22:19 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > As such I have a few suggestions already based on IOS/Shiva SpiderSoftware > command syntax: > > grouping of commands under another keyword, for example: ip, ipx, dial, etc... As long as the syntax is consistent. IOS is not a good example to follow here. > Also, will we be using autocompletion of partially typed commands? Go right ahead and write it. I'd recommend you look at libedit (man 3 editline). -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Oct 4 14:39:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA02761 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:39:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA02755 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 14:39:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.64]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA2916; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 23:38:53 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Sun, 04 Oct 1998 23:40:34 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Cc: Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 00:39 04-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: >On Sat, 3 Oct 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> At 07:59 02-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: >> >On Thu, 1 Oct 1998, Jerry Hicks wrote: >> >Heh.. Thanks for confirmation :-) Well, I know it's not _that_ popular >> >, but it gives tremendous programmability and >> >flexibility, compared to what /bin/sh gives with much more bloat. And I'd >> >rather not invent YAPL, tripping over the same pitfalls as others did - >> >Forth is very mature and well defined. >> >> Never played with Forth, what does it compare to? > >Hard to tell... It's definitely different than other popular languages. >It's built around a concept of stack (all operations are done on its >internal stacks), it's a cross between compiler and interpreter, uses a >Reverse Polish Notation for most of its operations (now, this is not the >reason I started to play with it :-)), etc, etc, - see www.forth.org for >more info. Reverse polish notation? I know of Hungarian notation, but not Polish, want to enlighten me? >> That wasn't my suggestion, but the current setup of FreeBSD is too limiting >> or too scattered throughout directories to be of any use for the picoBSD >> setup. > >Exactly! This is the issue I want to address. Then I understood ye correctly ;) >> But I think that's the question, how far are ye willing to go to >> preserve usability on the picoBSD setups, as far as I now can foresee, we >> use these disks for quick and 'dirty' routers. How much use is there to >> support every known command that don't actually add on to the purpose of >> which the disks were designed (correct me if wrong offcourse =). As I see >> it, we should/could use the FreeBSD cores, extend it with things like Zebra >> and the likes and modify the UI/shell to resemble configuration commands >> like IOS and Shiva/SpiderSoftware routing stuff... > >Again, I fully agree with you - that's also my intention. And I see a >Forth -based shell as a means to accomplish it - to glue all these >elements together, at the same time giving it flexibility and programming >abilities far beyond those of /bin/sh. Dang, have to learn Forth than don't I? =) How far do we need to adhere to Cisco's IOS/Shiva's SpiderSoftware command syntaxing? Most of it is good and usable. Regards, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhfdQ4Y752GnxADpEQKTAgCfYL7FQY3gTx4TuhPqNgNDlsywNAMAnR+G sUK1KxdBi06fR3PrcKBGUAmC =zKNr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sun Oct 4 15:06:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA06623 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:06:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA06590 for ; Sun, 4 Oct 1998 15:05:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.64]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA6609; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:05:02 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 00:06:42 +0200 To: Mike Smith From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Cc: "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small , Andrzej Bialecki In-Reply-To: <199810042122.OAA06790@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 23:22 04-10-98 , Mike Smith wrote: >> As such I have a few suggestions already based on IOS/Shiva SpiderSoftware >> command syntax: >> >> grouping of commands under another keyword, for example: ip, ipx, dial, etc... > >As long as the syntax is consistent. IOS is not a good example to >follow here. Well it might be a source for command names ;) Let's start to flesh out some proposals then... Might take long enough to finish it up anyways =) >> Also, will we be using autocompletion of partially typed commands? > >Go right ahead and write it. I'd recommend you look at libedit >(man 3 editline). I will have a look, thanks =) Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhfjYoY752GnxADpEQJdvQCfdRqx5ZBIiDLbKx1ClgMdLIf1ST0AoKyq Mq5C+/UErbf+WYRtSVb7lXkf =C0y4 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 00:16:15 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA22387 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:16:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA22378 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:16:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA21118; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:20:20 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:20:19 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >Hard to tell... It's definitely different than other popular languages. > >It's built around a concept of stack (all operations are done on its > >internal stacks), it's a cross between compiler and interpreter, uses a > >Reverse Polish Notation for most of its operations (now, this is not the > >reason I started to play with it :-)), etc, etc, - see www.forth.org for > >more info. > > Reverse polish notation? I know of Hungarian notation, but not Polish, want > to enlighten me? A.k.a. postfix notation. E.g. if you want to compute (3+4)*7 you enter it this way: 3 4 + 7 * This is natural consequence of choosing the stack as the backbone of the language. This makes it somewhat harder to read, but it's much more natural for most machines to execute. :-) > >Again, I fully agree with you - that's also my intention. And I see a > >Forth -based shell as a means to accomplish it - to glue all these > >elements together, at the same time giving it flexibility and programming > >abilities far beyond those of /bin/sh. > > Dang, have to learn Forth than don't I? =) > > How far do we need to adhere to Cisco's IOS/Shiva's SpiderSoftware command > syntaxing? Most of it is good and usable. Hmmm... They are just an idea to start from, I think. We need to sit and think about a model of the system, in terms of hierarchy of subsystems. Some of them would be such subsystems as User mgmt, IP config (interfaces, routing, bridging, NAT...), Startup, Access control etc etc.. Then , basing on this description, we could go down to the bottom of the final command which would look like: user add john *my_password* user delete evil_doer ip route add a.b.c.d e.f.g.h nnn ip nat add .... access user john permit line any access ip permit any from any startup delete 100 sendmail startup add 101 bind startup add 102 thttpd etc. etc..... and you could do this step by step, eg: # user User# ? add Add user delete Delete user exit Go one level up User# add ? TEXT Username User# add john % Incomplete command User# add john ? TEXT Password User# add john his_password ok User# exit # bye .Connection closed by foreign host. :-) I know, this resembles IOS very close. If you happen to know other UI, you can share with us how this would look like... anyway, I hope you get the idea. Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 00:33:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA24047 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:33:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles140.castles.com [208.214.165.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA24040 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA00893; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 00:37:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810050737.AAA00893@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: Mike Smith , "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small , Andrzej Bialecki Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 00:06:42 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 00:37:53 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > At 23:22 04-10-98 , Mike Smith wrote: > >> As such I have a few suggestions already based on IOS/Shiva SpiderSoftware > >> command syntax: > >> > >> grouping of commands under another keyword, for example: ip, ipx, dial, > etc... > > > >As long as the syntax is consistent. IOS is not a good example to > >follow here. > > Well it might be a source for command names ;) Not even that. IOS's command interface is a festering abomination. Emulating it would be a major error. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 05:02:32 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA26050 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 05:02:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fan.net.au (fan.net.au [203.20.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA26041; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 05:02:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hannama@fan.net.au) Received: from andrewh.famzon.com.au (dialup-nas1-32.bris.fan.net.au [202.179.224.33]) by fan.net.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id WAA26892; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:02:04 +1000 (EST) From: "Andrew Hannam" To: Cc: "FreeBSDSmall" , "AndrzejBialecki" Subject: RE: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:00:20 +1000 Message-ID: <000201bdf057$b991c100$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <199810050737.AAA00893@dingo.cdrom.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > >> grouping of commands under another keyword, for example: ip, > ipx, dial, > > etc... As long as you are doing the hierarchy breakdown of commands - why not do it as a set of web page constructs. A tiny web server, a few text files (html pages - forget pictures) and possibly a command interpreter of any flavour. This approach is easier for the administrator (no command set to learn). Management of the various parts of the system can be separated into separate 'cgi-bin' programs of either compiled or interpreted variety depending on the situation. The one catch: You need to establish an IP address before this will work. Subnet mask can initially default to 0.0.0.0 (and similarly gateway in this circumstance is not relevant). There are two solutions to this... a) Have a serial (or something else) connection just to set the initial IP address. b) Use the scheme that many standalone devices such as print servers use. Until an IP address is programmed via the web front end - all non-broadcast addresses sent to the ethernet card are accepted. Using a static ARP entry for the device with any suitable IP address is then sufficient to talk to it in this initial state. Comments Please ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 05:19:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA29217 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 05:19:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA29209; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 05:18:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA11798; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:22:27 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:22:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Andrew Hannam cc: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSDSmall Subject: RE: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: <000201bdf057$b991c100$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Andrew Hannam wrote: > > > >> grouping of commands under another keyword, for example: ip, > > ipx, dial, > > > etc... > > As long as you are doing the hierarchy breakdown of commands - why not do it > as a set of web page constructs. A tiny web server, a few text files (html > pages - forget pictures) and possibly a command interpreter of any flavour. > This approach is easier for the administrator (no command set to learn). > Management of the various parts of the system can be separated into separate > 'cgi-bin' programs of either compiled or interpreted variety depending on > the situation. I personally am a big hater of WWW config interfaces... but that's just me. IMHO it's useful mostly for marketing hype and (maybe) for people who are complete newbies, but for those who want to get the job done it just stands in the way... OTOH, perhaps I had just a bad experience - that one I tried to use was completely useless, because I could do the same job much quicker using command-line i/f with completion... > > The one catch: > You need to establish an IP address before this will work. Subnet mask can > initially default to 0.0.0.0 (and similarly gateway in this circumstance is > not relevant). > > There are two solutions to this... > a) Have a serial (or something else) connection just to set the initial IP > address. Ugh... If you go to such measures as connecting it via serial console, what prevents you from using a PPP connection on it, and do all the job using serial console? > b) Use the scheme that many standalone devices such as print servers use. > Until an IP address is programmed via the web front end - all non-broadcast > addresses sent to the ethernet card are accepted. Using a static ARP entry > for the device with any suitable IP address is then sufficient to talk to it > in this initial state. Hmmm... This would probably require putting the interface in promiscuous mode, and using some kind of BPF thing to read the packets... Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 06:44:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA06901 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 06:44:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fan.net.au (fan.net.au [203.20.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA06803; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 06:43:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hannama@fan.net.au) Received: from andrewh.famzon.com.au (dialup-nas1-32.bris.fan.net.au [202.179.224.33]) by fan.net.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA07460; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:43:10 +1000 (EST) From: "Andrew Hannam" To: "Andrzej Bialecki" Cc: , "FreeBSDSmall" Subject: RE: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 23:41:28 +1000 Message-ID: <000401bdf065$da48a900$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I personally am a big hater of WWW config interfaces... but that's just > me. IMHO it's useful mostly for marketing hype and (maybe) for people who > are complete newbies, but for those who want to get the job done it just > stands in the way... OTOH, perhaps I had just a bad experience - that one > I tried to use was completely useless, because I could do the same job > much quicker using command-line i/f with completion... I agree they can be bad, and I share your love of the command line. However, a well designed set of pages can do the job and be much easier to use for newbie's or those without the time to study manuals. This probably includes most people and applications for this type of device other than (as they are sometimes called in my country) "propeller-heads" such as me (and you). > > a) Have a serial (or something else) connection just to set the > initial IP > > address. > Ugh... If you go to such measures as connecting it via serial console, > what prevents you from using a PPP connection on it, and do all the job > using serial console? Again I agree. I never said it was a nice solution - just possible. I personally prefer the second method. > > b) Use the scheme that many standalone devices such as print > servers use. > > Until an IP address is programmed via the web front end - all > non-broadcast > > addresses sent to the ethernet card are accepted. Using a > static ARP entry > > for the device with any suitable IP address is then sufficient > to talk to it > > in this initial state. > > Hmmm... This would probably require putting the interface in promiscuous > mode, and using some kind of BPF thing to read the packets... Sounds complicated under PicoBSD - it would be nice if it worked however. You then have a way to bootstrap configurations without a console. I come from the dedicated micro world where such things are designed into the TCP stacks (or rather layers of "full implementation" are turned off to get this effect). Whether you use a TCP bootstrap method to run a WWW server or not - bootstraping the machine using method (b) allows you to get away without any console (either vga or serial based). Again you have the chance to "embed" a little more of the system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 07:07:12 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA10577 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 07:07:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fan.net.au (fan.net.au [203.20.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA10492; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 07:06:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hannama@fan.net.au) Received: from andrewh.famzon.com.au (dialup-nas1-32.bris.fan.net.au [202.179.224.33]) by fan.net.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id AAA09713; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:06:12 +1000 (EST) From: "Andrew Hannam" To: "Andrzej Bialecki" Cc: , "FreeBSDSmall" Subject: RE: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:04:30 +1000 Message-ID: <000501bdf069$12346d60$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <000401bdf065$da48a900$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I personally am a big hater of WWW config interfaces... but that's just > > me. IMHO it's useful mostly for marketing hype and (maybe) for > people who > > are complete newbies, but for those who want to get the job done it just > > stands in the way... OTOH, perhaps I had just a bad experience > - that one > > I tried to use was completely useless, because I could do the same job > > much quicker using command-line i/f with completion... > > I agree they can be bad, and I share your love of the command > line. However, > a well designed set of pages can do the job and be much easier to use for > newbie's or those without the time to study manuals. This > probably includes > most people and applications for this type of device other than > (as they are > sometimes called in my country) "propeller-heads" such as me (and you). [Opinion] WWW is just another GUI, although a cheap one from the server point of view. Like all GUI's you can design good and bad applications. The point with html is that by nature you tend to end up with bad interfaces unless you do the design work first. Who these days has time to do anything other than a quick and dirty implementation? Only the marketing people who see it like any other form of trend marketing. This explains the many bad interfaces we see. They are either bad from being "quick and dirty" or bad from being too glossy with limited functionality. Point is... design an interface properly in html and it should be as good as any other GUI implementation. The same applies to command lines. If you design badly you get a bad result (hence the comments earlier in this group about how bad Cisco IOS is. Command line completion does a lot to "rescue" the useability of Cisco IOS). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 08:43:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA25929 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 08:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rachel (mail.glenatl.glenayre.com [157.230.160.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA25836 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 08:42:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhicks@glenatl.glenayre.com) Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com by rachel (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA21143; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:32:53 -0400 Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA10779; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:32:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Louis A. Mamakos" cc: Andrzej Bialecki , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Oct 1998 19:45:30 EDT." <199810032345.TAA21910@whizzo.transsys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 11:32:42 -0400 From: Jerry Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Again, I fully agree with you - that's also my intention. And I see a > > Forth -based shell as a means to accomplish it - to glue all these > > elements together, at the same time giving it flexibility and programming > > abilities far beyond those of /bin/sh. > > I can certainly see how having an extensible shell would be a very > attractive thing. But if you expect mere mortals to be able to > run (and extend) the thing, I think a FORTH-based approach is doomed > to fail (again). Not necessarily... Quite a few mortals know how to code Forth. I have enjoyed a fair amount of success over the years introducing Forth to new programmers. Anyone who used WordPerfect or bootstraps a late model Sun also qualifies as a user of a Forth system. > Why wouldn't something based on TCL be a better choice? Sysadmins are > probably more likely to be familiar with it (perhaps due to experience > with "expect"). It has a pretty reasonable syntax, and perhaps > a more familair procedural type model. I can see getting a complete Forth onto the PicoBSD floppy within 8K or so. We can't do that with TCL. Forth is considered a procedural language, although there are some implementations which offer expert systems and object-oriented support. I'll bet we will find a new set of FreeBSD aficionados created when some implementation gets released. See comp.lang.forth for lively discussion. Forth is very much alive and kicking. When one is seeking a minimalist solution, I can't think of a better alternative to assembly code. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jerry.hicks@glenayre.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 09:34:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04599 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:34:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from atlantis.bus.ucf.edu (atlantis.bus.ucf.edu [132.170.121.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04586 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 09:34:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from david@bus.ucf.edu) Received: from localhost (david@localhost) by atlantis.bus.ucf.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA03795 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:44:55 -0400 Posted-Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:44:55 -0400 X-Beware: Message signed by CBA main Mail Server Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:44:55 -0400 (EDT) From: David Collantes To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 11:18:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25807 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:18:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dworkin.amber.org (dworkin.amber.org [209.31.146.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25766 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:17:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from petrilli@dworkin.amber.org) Received: (from petrilli@localhost) by dworkin.amber.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA04166; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:17:35 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19981005141735.53074@amber.org> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:17:35 -0400 From: "Christopher G. Petrilli" To: FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Small References: <199810032345.TAA21910@whizzo.transsys.com> <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com>; from Jerry Hicks on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 11:32:42AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 11:32:42AM -0400, Jerry Hicks wrote: > > [snip: various arguments] > > Not necessarily... Quite a few mortals know how to code Forth. I have > enjoyed a fair amount of success over the years introducing Forth to new > programmers. This is really not a valid argument. Quite a few mortals know x86 assembler, but that hardly makes it attractive I think the reality is that RPN is totally foreign to most people, at least those who don't keep a traditional HP calculator by their sides. > Anyone who used WordPerfect or bootstraps a late model Sun also qualifies as a > user of a Forth system. Regardless, user is one thing, coder is a totally seperate thing. > > Why wouldn't something based on TCL be a better choice? Sysadmins are > > probably more likely to be familiar with it (perhaps due to experience > > with "expect"). It has a pretty reasonable syntax, and perhaps > > a more familair procedural type model. > > I can see getting a complete Forth onto the PicoBSD floppy within 8K or so. This is a bonus in so much as it presumes that it's needed. > We can't do that with TCL. > I'll bet we will find a new set of FreeBSD aficionados created when some > implementation gets released. See comp.lang.forth for lively discussion. Thiss is NOT why you do things, this is a poor excuse. Heck, then we should use perl! <0.5 wink> > Forth is very much alive and kicking. When one is seeking a minimalist > solution, I can't think of a better alternative to assembly code. Have we really even yet determined that any such solution is needed, or in fact are we trying to find a hammer to a nail that is only in the imagination of those among us? I would appreciate CLEAR CONCISE descriptions of REAL-WORLD problems that this would solve, not some hyperbole about how it would make thus and such possi ble, which presumes that anyone in their right midn would WANT it. Remember, PicoBSD is designed to be small and simple, choosing obtuse (for most people) languages as extension sets is just plain SILLY. BTW, this is no flame, I used to write Forht code. Chris -- | Christopher Petrilli | petrilli@amber.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 11:57:48 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA03445 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:57:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03412 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 11:57:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.96]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAB53E2; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:57:01 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:58:45 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Cc: FreeBSD Small In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 09:20 05-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: >On Sun, 4 Oct 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> Reverse polish notation? I know of Hungarian notation, but not Polish, want >> to enlighten me? > >A.k.a. postfix notation. E.g. if you want to compute (3+4)*7 you enter it >this way: > >3 4 + 7 * Ahh right'o, the awkward notation for humans ;) >This is natural consequence of choosing the stack as the backbone of the >language. This makes it somewhat harder to read, but it's much more >natural for most machines to execute. :-) I had a look at Forth today, looks workable enough... Now to gain some expertise in it... =) >> How far do we need to adhere to Cisco's IOS/Shiva's SpiderSoftware command >> syntaxing? Most of it is good and usable. > >Hmmm... They are just an idea to start from, I think. We need to sit and >think about a model of the system, in terms of hierarchy of subsystems. >Some of them would be such subsystems as User mgmt, IP config (interfaces, >routing, bridging, NAT...), Startup, Access control etc etc.. Then , >basing on this description, we could go down to the bottom of the final >command which would look like: [snip Cisco IOS like example] >I know, this resembles IOS very close. If you happen to know other UI, you >can share with us how this would look like... anyway, I hope you get the >idea. I will, will type some of Shiva's examples soon, for the moment, here's one: Category Description - ---------------------------------------------- Booting Booting Commands Filters Filter Management Commands Hosts Hosts and Services Commands Install Installation Commands Line Line and Session Commands Management Network Management Commands Menu Menu Commands Phone Phone Commands Routing Routing Commands Statistics Statistical Information Commands Terminal Terminal Configuration Commands User User Commands Utility Utility Commands regards, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhkI1YY752GnxADpEQLyFQCgqbjC8ecQwhHTJ/tDMnpZid/RFL0AnR20 YZ6ckLq2lwBNxTXwM9915h8D =EK8u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 12:19:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08926 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:19:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from torrentnet.com (bacardi.torrentnet.com [198.78.51.104]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA08918 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:19:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jds@bacardi.torrentnet.com) Received: from bacardi.torrentnet.com (localhost.torrentnet.com [127.0.0.1]) by torrentnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21621; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:18:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810051918.PAA21621@torrentnet.com> To: Mike Smith cc: FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 15:18:27 -0400 From: James da Silva Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > >IOS is not a good example to follow here. > > Well it might be a source for command names ;) > Not even that. IOS's command interface is a festering abomination. > Emulating it would be a major error. Unless you're trying to sell a router to people who have it memorized already, warts and all. :-) It seems to me that the basic goal here for picoBSD is to be able to configure the whole thing from one script file, including perhaps some extensibility (which IOS does not have). An extensible config language can be very small and very quickly implemented. I had thought the TCL interpreter core (minus all the library routines) was very small, maybe something went wrong. Forth certainly qualifies. Small schemes (eg siod) qualify. A simple line-based mini- language can be cons'ed up in a weekend. Choosing among these is pure religion. But that's not the problem. The problem is the mapping from this small simple script-based language onto the "real" configuration base of the system. This can bloat up in a hurry. Eg, does each subsystem read from the config file, or is there a single command shell that updates some registry (ldap and agentx spring to mind for the registry)? Either way, you have to modify all your programs to get their config info from this centralized place. Or, if you don't want to do that, you can have your script processor generate the traditional conf files. The mapping can be complicated if you aren't careful. If forth is being considered as way to implement a lot of the non-performance critical "glue" code, and not necessarily as the interface through which the admin operates, then that's less controversial. Wouldn't Java or some other bytecode language be similarly compact, or at least in the same ballpark? I know, a typical java runtime, like tcl, is bloated; but how much of that is necessary? How big would a simple JVM with only the basic classes be? Jaime ........................................................................... : James da Silva : Stand on my shoulders, : : Torrent Networking Technologies Corp. : not on my toes. : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 12:23:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10061 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:23:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10032 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:23:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.96]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA5B30; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:23:24 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 21:25:07 +0200 To: Mike Smith From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Cc: "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small , Andrzej Bialecki In-Reply-To: <199810050737.AAA00893@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 09:37 05-10-98 , Mike Smith wrote: >> At 23:22 04-10-98 , Mike Smith wrote: >> >> As such I have a few suggestions already based on IOS/Shiva SpiderSoftware >> >> command syntax: >> >> >> >> grouping of commands under another keyword, for example: ip, ipx, dial, >> etc... >> > >> >As long as the syntax is consistent. IOS is not a good example to >> >follow here. >> >> Well it might be a source for command names ;) > >Not even that. IOS's command interface is a festering abomination. >Emulating it would be a major error. Want to support yer statement? =) Just curious about the how and why... Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhkPBIY752GnxADpEQLigwCfTN77BSD3D3+dMeROw8GFvOjhfqYAoM+A CbTOS4owXv7zwy+8xXHLwbnK =aP95 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 12:33:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12281 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:33:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rachel (mail.glenatl.glenayre.com [157.230.160.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA12214 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 12:33:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhicks@glenatl.glenayre.com) Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com by rachel (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA28132; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:22:02 -0400 Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA11350; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:21:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810051921.PAA11350@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Christopher G. Petrilli" cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 14:17:35 EDT." <19981005141735.53074@amber.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 15:21:54 -0400 From: Jerry Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [no need to repeat all that :)] > Remember, PicoBSD is designed to be small and simple, choosing obtuse > (for most people) languages as extension sets is just plain SILLY. > > BTW, this is no flame, I used to write Forht code. > Chris I see... so that's when you learned how to spell it? :-) Seriously, I think your concerns about RPN are exaggerated. While programming languages become a religious topic for some, it's also a bit of a stretch to label Forth an obtuse language simply because of its postfix notation. Remember, Lisp uses 'notInfix' notation and this doesn't seem to be hampering Emacs in the least. All indications are that its user base is growing. But then again maybe my concerns about space might be exaggerated too. I've rolled quite a few custom PicoBSD's here (including one with an auxiliary disk to provide Perl for PicoBSD). We are constantly trying to find just a few more bytes to accomodate more functionality. There are even LALR(1) parser and lexical scanner generators written in Forth which could help us implement a command set with infix notation. All in a very small space which has predictable runtime requirements. How would we do that with Perl or TCL? Maybe I _am_ just being SILLY... thanks for pointing that out without flaming me. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net > -- > | Christopher Petrilli > | petrilli@amber.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 13:49:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00431 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:49:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freeby.mesanet.com (mesa.dial.idiom.com [209.157.70.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00417 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:49:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pcw@mesanet.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freeby.mesanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA26143 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 13:41:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Wallace To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: <199810051921.PAA11350@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Whats the big deal about cramming this onto a single floppy... Wouldn't a real embedded FreeBSD application use a small flash drive? The smallest chips that we use now are 4 M Bytes and about $12.00, cheaper than a floppy drive! Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 14:20:03 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03321 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:20:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rachel (mail.glenatl.glenayre.com [157.230.160.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA02963 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhicks@glenatl.glenayre.com) Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com by rachel (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA00469; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:09:46 -0400 Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA11605 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 17:09:41 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810052109.RAA11605@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 13:41:01 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 17:09:41 -0400 From: Jerry Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > Whats the big deal about cramming this onto a single floppy... > Wouldn't a real embedded FreeBSD application use a small flash drive? The > smallest chips that we use now are 4 M Bytes and about $12.00, cheaper > than a floppy drive! Good Point! Of course, flash drives are hardly ubiquitous just now. Older PC's with floppy drive are abundantly available to the average user. And I think you meant 4 Mbit are the smallest devices you are using (providing only 524288 bytes of raw capacity). Twelve dollars is the amount for flash chips, not a usable 'flash drive'. Those are still more expensive than a floppy drive. Cheers, Jerry Hicks jerry.hicks@glenayre.com > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 14:47:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA08505 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:47:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freeby.mesanet.com (mesa.dial.idiom.com [209.157.70.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA08488 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:47:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pcw@mesanet.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freeby.mesanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id OAA00234; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 14:44:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Wallace To: Jerry Hicks cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: <199810052109.RAA11605@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Jerry Hicks wrote: > > > > > > > > Whats the big deal about cramming this onto a single floppy... > > Wouldn't a real embedded FreeBSD application use a small flash drive? The > > smallest chips that we use now are 4 M Bytes and about $12.00, cheaper > > than a floppy drive! > > Good Point! > > Of course, flash drives are hardly ubiquitous just now. Older PC's with > floppy drive are abundantly available to the average user. Of course our interest is more for embedded systems than people with a spare PC... > > And I think you meant 4 Mbit are the smallest devices you are using (providing > only 524288 bytes of raw capacity). Twelve dollars is the amount for flash > chips, not a usable 'flash drive'. No, $12.00 is for 4M bytes (32 Mbit chip - TC58V32 same as SmartMedia in different package) -- added circuitry for a flash drive is less than $1.00 for a software FFS flash drive and about $11.00 for an hardware IDE compatible flash drive. > > Those are still more expensive than a floppy drive. Not for an OEM, but whats really missing for minimum cost is an unencumbered FFS for XXXBSD, Linux etc. Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics > > Cheers, > > Jerry Hicks > jerry.hicks@glenayre.com > > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > Mesa Electronics > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 15:09:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12489 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:09:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rachel (mail.glenatl.glenayre.com [157.230.160.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA12460 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:09:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jhicks@glenatl.glenayre.com) Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com by rachel (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA01515; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:01:40 -0400 Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA11763; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:01:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199810052201.SAA11763@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Peter Wallace cc: Jerry Hicks , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 14:44:48 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 18:01:29 -0400 From: Jerry Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > [snips] > > And I think you meant 4 Mbit are the smallest devices you are using (providing > > only 524288 bytes of raw capacity). Twelve dollars is the amount for flash > > chips, not a usable 'flash drive'. > > No, $12.00 is for 4M bytes (32 Mbit chip - TC58V32 same as > SmartMedia in different package) -- added circuitry for a flash drive is > less than $1.00 for a software FFS flash drive and about $11.00 for an > hardware IDE compatible flash drive. WoW! Nifty.... :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks jerry.hicks@glenayre.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 15:17:40 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14460 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:17:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14431; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:17:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.34]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA16AD; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:17:30 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 00:18:20 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki , Andrew Hannam From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: RE: Command-line i/f (and versioning) Cc: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSDSmall In-Reply-To: References: <000201bdf057$b991c100$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 14:22 05-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: >On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Andrew Hannam wrote: >> As long as you are doing the hierarchy breakdown of commands - why not do it >> as a set of web page constructs. A tiny web server, a few text files (html >> pages - forget pictures) and possibly a command interpreter of any flavour. >> This approach is easier for the administrator (no command set to learn). >> Management of the various parts of the system can be separated into separate >> 'cgi-bin' programs of either compiled or interpreted variety depending on >> the situation. >I personally am a big hater of WWW config interfaces... but that's just >me. IMHO it's useful mostly for marketing hype and (maybe) for people who >are complete newbies, but for those who want to get the job done it just >stands in the way... OTOH, perhaps I had just a bad experience - that one >I tried to use was completely useless, because I could do the same job >much quicker using command-line i/f with completion... I myself am a sucker for textbased commandline configurating... WWW interfaces require too much point and click, then again, it might be better suited for those that aren't that wellgifted with CLI's =) >> b) Use the scheme that many standalone devices such as print servers use. >> Until an IP address is programmed via the web front end - all non-broadcast >> addresses sent to the ethernet card are accepted. Using a static ARP entry >> for the device with any suitable IP address is then sufficient to talk to it >> in this initial state. > >Hmmm... This would probably require putting the interface in promiscuous >mode, and using some kind of BPF thing to read the packets... Lame statement though: we are going to make disks, we boot using a disk, so we probably have a keyboard nearby? Correct me if wrong, but the resources might be lying around ;) Also, let's get the picoBSD internals as stable as possible and then continue onwards to enhancing the interface. So my vote for now is, discuss and plan enhancements, yet stick with CLI's now. Also, how are we seperating the STABLE and CURRENT-derived picoBSD's from each other? do they also have a prefix? Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhk3nYY752GnxADpEQIdnACgzlBsI4EUlvVrcSHPRDrmjN/El/MAoOKX ZxOJJHzR6SJNHfvwdUpDA30E =YcAn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 15:17:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14466 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:17:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14440 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:17:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.34]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAB16AD; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:17:32 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 00:12:02 +0200 To: "Andrew Hannam" From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: RE: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Cc: "FreeBSDSmall" , "AndrzejBialecki" Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 14:00 05-10-98 , you wrote: >> > >> grouping of commands under another keyword, for example: ip, >> ipx, dial, >> > etc... > >As long as you are doing the hierarchy breakdown of commands - why not do it >as a set of web page constructs. A tiny web server, a few text files (html >pages - forget pictures) and possibly a command interpreter of any flavour. >This approach is easier for the administrator (no command set to learn). >Management of the various parts of the system can be separated into separate >'cgi-bin' programs of either compiled or interpreted variety depending on >the situation. At this point, I find WWW pages not the top priority, the idea might be very useful later on in the development, offcourse, one could keep sidenotes about implementing it in order to ease it's process later on, but at this point I say, let's start with an engine first and then enhance it... [snip of catch] >There are two solutions to this... >a) Have a serial (or something else) connection just to set the initial IP >address. Like configuring a Cisco/Shiva router for the first time... >b) Use the scheme that many standalone devices such as print servers use. >Until an IP address is programmed via the web front end - all non-broadcast >addresses sent to the ethernet card are accepted. Using a static ARP entry >for the device with any suitable IP address is then sufficient to talk to it >in this initial state. Sounds acceptable... Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhk084Y752GnxADpEQIgKgCg343ysxyfJyegWsTvqR87OV7IK0cAoPUr vwo+Ukms4LmnYm/T9/aD961c =WIDD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 15:32:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18252 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:32:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18234 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:32:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.34]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA4241; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:32:43 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 00:23:20 +0200 To: "Andrew Hannam" From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: RE: Command-line i/f vs WWW i/f Cc: "FreeBSDSmall" , "Andrzej Bialecki" In-Reply-To: <000401bdf065$da48a900$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> References: Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 15:41 05-10-98 , Andrew Hannam wrote: >> I personally am a big hater of WWW config interfaces... but that's just >> me. IMHO it's useful mostly for marketing hype and (maybe) for people who >> are complete newbies, but for those who want to get the job done it just >> stands in the way... OTOH, perhaps I had just a bad experience - that one >> I tried to use was completely useless, because I could do the same job >> much quicker using command-line i/f with completion... > >I agree they can be bad, and I share your love of the command line. However, >a well designed set of pages can do the job and be much easier to use for >newbie's or those without the time to study manuals. This probably includes >most people and applications for this type of device other than (as they are >sometimes called in my country) "propeller-heads" such as me (and you). True, yet see my other post about the ideas I have a this point about CLI vs WWW. Enough to say that should we have to implement the www pages, we need a very minimal HTTP 1.0 compliant daemon, plus the pages, and that all mounts against the diskspace, then again, giving the complete redesign we might have lying before us of the commands, that would not be a critical point. Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhk4yIY752GnxADpEQImrACg4sKTO15kc0Vs9KidyhFwoqfJFHYAn0+e VaDgv4nxCeaU5yNvrUjQrU6q =2u8k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 15:32:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18261 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:32:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18239 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:32:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.34]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAB4241; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:32:45 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 00:31:03 +0200 To: "Andrew Hannam" From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: RE: WWW i/f Cc: "FreeBSDSmall" , "Andrzej Bialecki" In-Reply-To: <000501bdf069$12346d60$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> References: <000401bdf065$da48a900$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 16:04 05-10-98 , Andrew Hannam wrote: >[Opinion] >WWW is just another GUI, although a cheap one from the server point of view. >Like all GUI's you can design good and bad applications. The point with html >is that by nature you tend to end up with bad interfaces unless you do the >design work first. True, well, ye can try some designs already, except the point is that when ye are going to go for HTML 1.0, 2.x, 3.x, or 4,x compliance, the HTTPd code gets enlarged by a factor 2 or something due to extra functionality. The question we should ask is do we need every option available? Are there tags available that might be benificial to the configuration? Another lame question that's evading my eyes is, how are we going to write the config? Does a simple POST do the trick? >Who these days has time to do anything other than a quick and dirty >implementation? Only the marketing people who see it like any other form of >trend marketing. This explains the many bad interfaces we see. >They are either bad from being "quick and dirty" or bad from being too >glossy with limited functionality. Any familiarity with 3Com's Hubs and Switches? They have a nice WWW interface and useable too... >Point is... > design an interface properly in html and it should be as good as any other >GUI implementation. Care to disagree, I find CLI's too be much more enjoyable and better to manipulate... WWW might be better in layout of data and their current settings. Matter of preference? >The same applies to command lines. If you design badly you get a bad result >(hence the comments earlier in this group about how bad Cisco IOS is. >Command line completion does a lot to "rescue" the useability of Cisco IOS). What's so wrong about IOS? I still don't see it. Hence I suggested the completion too, Andrej might have had the opinion voiced on the list at some earlier time too, but I haven't found that though =) regards, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhk6mIY752GnxADpEQJP4wCfRzpPwsgvS2FxRgoM5riPrVP3lcMAoIvh lvZegpfjj3+pQRXQdo00t4g1 =PpVR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 15:33:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18284 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:33:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18253 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 15:32:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.34]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAC4241; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 00:32:47 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 00:34:27 +0200 To: Jerry Hicks From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f using Forth Cc: Andrzej Bialecki , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small , "Louis A. Mamakos" In-Reply-To: <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> References: Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 17:32 05-10-98 , Jerry Hicks wrote: >> >> > Again, I fully agree with you - that's also my intention. And I see a >> > Forth -based shell as a means to accomplish it - to glue all these >> > elements together, at the same time giving it flexibility and programming >> > abilities far beyond those of /bin/sh. >> >> I can certainly see how having an extensible shell would be a very >> attractive thing. But if you expect mere mortals to be able to >> run (and extend) the thing, I think a FORTH-based approach is doomed >> to fail (again). > >Not necessarily... Quite a few mortals know how to code Forth. I have >enjoyed a fair amount of success over the years introducing Forth to new >programmers. Definately need to try it now =) >> Why wouldn't something based on TCL be a better choice? Sysadmins are >> probably more likely to be familiar with it (perhaps due to experience >> with "expect"). It has a pretty reasonable syntax, and perhaps >> a more familair procedural type model. > >I can see getting a complete Forth onto the PicoBSD floppy within 8K or so. > >We can't do that with TCL. That's the #1 argument for everything pico(BSD), the size (and yet still be useful) >Forth is considered a procedural language, although there are some >implementations which offer expert systems and object-oriented support. Do we need those implementations? As far as my opinion goes, we don't need OO, but expert might come in handy when routing approaches the stage where they can be predicted (bad thing(tm) mayhaps). >I'll bet we will find a new set of FreeBSD aficionados created when some >implementation gets released. See comp.lang.forth for lively discussion. Might check it out... >Forth is very much alive and kicking. When one is seeking a minimalist >solution, I can't think of a better alternative to assembly code. Ahh ok... *looking* =) Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhk7ZIY752GnxADpEQLjIQCbBkFRHoDuKJ8BFoI7O1/kbRNcwWQAoNuQ Ro8fgqTPLBNtOkvn6PyOxcOJ =bEza -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 16:33:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01330 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:33:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01303 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:32:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00680; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810052337.QAA00680@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small , Andrzej Bialecki Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 21:25:07 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 16:37:24 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > At 09:37 05-10-98 , Mike Smith wrote: > >> At 23:22 04-10-98 , Mike Smith wrote: > >> >> As such I have a few suggestions already based on IOS/Shiva > SpiderSoftware > >> >> command syntax: > >> >> > >> >> grouping of commands under another keyword, for example: ip, ipx, dial, > >> etc... > >> > > >> >As long as the syntax is consistent. IOS is not a good example to > >> >follow here. > >> > >> Well it might be a source for command names ;) > > > >Not even that. IOS's command interface is a festering abomination. > >Emulating it would be a major error. > > Want to support yer statement? =) Just curious about the how and why... The major nits which get me: - Inconsistent terminology. - There's usually at least 2 ways of doing something, and at most one of those will be like how you would do a similar thing to a slightly different object. - No structure (you will usually visit several subsystems in order to perform any configuration task). - No scriptability (there's an IOS with Tcl embedded inside Cisco, but they won't let it out). Basically, IOS's command interface is a hack. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 16:34:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01563 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:34:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01489 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:33:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00695; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:38:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810052338.QAA00695@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Peter Wallace cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 13:41:01 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 16:38:57 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Whats the big deal about cramming this onto a single floppy... > Wouldn't a real embedded FreeBSD application use a small flash drive? The > smallest chips that we use now are 4 M Bytes and about $12.00, cheaper > than a floppy drive! They don't have mounting screws, nor can you plug them into a standard motherboard. 8) Lots of "embedded" stuff involves an ordinary PC bolted to the inside of a big wooden box or similar. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 16:56:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05895 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:56:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freeby.mesanet.com (mesa.dial.idiom.com [209.157.70.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05883 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:56:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pcw@mesanet.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freeby.mesanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA08268 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 16:54:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Wallace To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: <199810052338.QAA00695@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > Whats the big deal about cramming this onto a single floppy... > > Wouldn't a real embedded FreeBSD application use a small flash drive? The > > smallest chips that we use now are 4 M Bytes and about $12.00, cheaper > > than a floppy drive! > > They don't have mounting screws, nor can you plug them into a standard > motherboard. 8) > > Lots of "embedded" stuff involves an ordinary PC bolted to the inside > of a big wooden box or similar. > But I think lots _more_ embedded stuff will be: higher reliability / wider ambient temperature range / smaller size / and lower cost than can be achieved with a floppy for boot device... I guess it depends on what the imagined target for PicoBSD is. Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 18:01:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA22662 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:01:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (whizzo.TransSys.COM [144.202.42.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22645 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 18:01:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Received: from whizzo.transsys.com (localhost.transsys.com [127.0.0.1]) by whizzo.transsys.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA03187; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 21:00:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from louie@whizzo.transsys.com) Message-Id: <199810060100.VAA03187@whizzo.transsys.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: Mike Smith , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small , Andrzej Bialecki From: "Louis A. Mamakos" Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) References: In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 21:25:07 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 21:00:37 -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >Not even that. IOS's command interface is a festering abomination. > >Emulating it would be a major error. > > Want to support yer statement? =) Just curious about the how and why... It's horrible. It suffers from trying to be backwards comptible with ancient code, and being extended into new and wonderful directions. Here's a trick: examine a Cisco router configuration, and try to figure out which configuration lines affect a particular router interface. Outside of the obvious interface commands, you have route-maps, access lists, routing protocol interface subcommends sprinked everywhere. Yes, the context specific command completion is great (and almost necessary given the complexity of the underlying goo), but I wouldn't take a lot more than that. louie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 19:48:06 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA09381 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:48:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dworkin.amber.org (dworkin.amber.org [209.31.146.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09376 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 19:48:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from petrilli@dworkin.amber.org) Received: (from petrilli@localhost) by dworkin.amber.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) id WAA12067; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:48:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19981005224801.49099@amber.org> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 1998 22:48:01 -0400 From: "Christopher G. Petrilli" To: FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Small References: <199810060100.VAA03187@whizzo.transsys.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199810060100.VAA03187@whizzo.transsys.com>; from Louis A. Mamakos on Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 09:00:37PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 09:00:37PM -0400, Louis A. Mamakos wrote: > > > >Not even that. IOS's command interface is a festering abomination. > > >Emulating it would be a major error. > > > > Want to support yer statement? =) Just curious about the how and why... > > It's horrible. > > It suffers from trying to be backwards comptible with ancient code, and > being extended into new and wonderful directions. When I worked for a large Telco, we were using over 500 undocumented hacks in the IOS configuration "language" to tweak things, and often if you used one way to set something, it would behave differently than if you did another. Let's just accept it sucks, and design somethin that avoids such bogocity. Chris -- | Christopher Petrilli | petrilli@amber.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 20:13:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA14138 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:13:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA14133 for ; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:13:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA01889; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:16:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810060316.UAA01889@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Peter Wallace cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 05 Oct 1998 16:54:41 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 05 Oct 1998 20:16:36 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > Whats the big deal about cramming this onto a single floppy... > > > Wouldn't a real embedded FreeBSD application use a small flash drive? The > > > smallest chips that we use now are 4 M Bytes and about $12.00, cheaper > > > than a floppy drive! > > > > They don't have mounting screws, nor can you plug them into a standard > > motherboard. 8) > > > > Lots of "embedded" stuff involves an ordinary PC bolted to the inside > > of a big wooden box or similar. > > But I think lots _more_ embedded stuff will be: higher reliability > / wider ambient temperature range / smaller size / and lower cost than can > be achieved with a floppy for boot device... For that sort of thing, definitely. "Embedded" systems cover an enormous range, and if you're manufacturing your own hardware, the story changes rapidly. > I guess it depends on what the imagined target for PicoBSD is. Extremely varied - I certainly see it being used on flash-based systems; don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an unencumberd TFFS clone. 8) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Mon Oct 5 20:37:22 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA18030 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:37:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from opera.iinet.net.au (opera.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA18019; Mon, 5 Oct 1998 20:37:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@rama-tech.com) Received: from grunge.iinet.net.au (grunge.iinet.net.au [203.59.24.9]) by opera.iinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26935; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:36:51 +0800 Received: from jupiter.rama.com.au (reggae-13-44.nv.iinet.net.au [203.59.73.44]) by grunge.iinet.net.au (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id LAA32389; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:36:41 +0800 Received: from rama-tech.com (chris [192.156.249.56]) by jupiter.rama.com.au (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA00976; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:31:45 +0800 Message-ID: <36198EAC.488D6796@rama-tech.com> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 11:29:48 +0800 From: Chris Avis Organization: RAMA Technologies Pty Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Hannam CC: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSDSmall Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) References: <000201bdf057$b991c100$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I say go with the tiny Web based solution. I think the debate over command line and web based interfaces was decided long before this discussion started. I can guarantee the answer to this question if taken to the Marketing Division of any organisation. On this issue I believe we go with the flow or become marginalised. Wether we like it or not the market demands that "successful" embedded products support a Web Interface. Option "b" below sounds progressive and a positive step forward. I propose we adopt this and get something started. I am prepared to contribute, how do we start this going. regards Chris Andrew Hannam wrote: > > > > >> grouping of commands under another keyword, for example: ip, > > ipx, dial, > > > etc... > > As long as you are doing the hierarchy breakdown of commands - why not do it > as a set of web page constructs. A tiny web server, a few text files (html > pages - forget pictures) and possibly a command interpreter of any flavour. > This approach is easier for the administrator (no command set to learn). > Management of the various parts of the system can be separated into separate > 'cgi-bin' programs of either compiled or interpreted variety depending on > the situation. > > The one catch: > You need to establish an IP address before this will work. Subnet mask can > initially default to 0.0.0.0 (and similarly gateway in this circumstance is > not relevant). > > There are two solutions to this... > a) Have a serial (or something else) connection just to set the initial IP > address. > b) Use the scheme that many standalone devices such as print servers use. > Until an IP address is programmed via the web front end - all non-broadcast > addresses sent to the ethernet card are accepted. Using a static ARP entry > for the device with any suitable IP address is then sufficient to talk to it > in this initial state. > > Comments Please ... > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message -- Chris Avis (c.avis@rama-tech.com) _--_|\ RAMA Technologies Pty Ltd, 28 Walters Drive / \ Osborne Park, Western Australia 6017, Australia \_.--._/ Tel: +61 8 9445 7999 Fax: +61 8 9445 7666 v http://www.rama-tech.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 05:17:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA05567 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 05:17:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA05558 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 05:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA06110; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:19:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 14:19:36 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Peter Wallace cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Peter Wallace wrote: > > > Peter Wallace > Mesa Electronics > > On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > Whats the big deal about cramming this onto a single floppy... > > > Wouldn't a real embedded FreeBSD application use a small flash drive? The > > > smallest chips that we use now are 4 M Bytes and about $12.00, cheaper > > > than a floppy drive! > > > > They don't have mounting screws, nor can you plug them into a standard > > motherboard. 8) > > > > Lots of "embedded" stuff involves an ordinary PC bolted to the inside > > of a big wooden box or similar. > > > > But I think lots _more_ embedded stuff will be: higher reliability > / wider ambient temperature range / smaller size / and lower cost than can > be achieved with a floppy for boot device... You're of course right. The truly embedded solution would be to use an SBC with DiskOnChip and no moving parts. But that's much more expensive... > I guess it depends on what the imagined target for PicoBSD is. The ability to run from flash disk is very important for me, as this is probably the best choice for building a reliable device (no moving parts, fast access etc..). And you're right that it usually will mean that the available disk size can be bigger (though it depends - low end SBCs sometimes are able to accomodate only 1.5MB of flash, and there are still questions of cost/unit). So, this is one of the important targets. OTOH, there are many people who want to use their spare, old PCs as a turnkey networking device. For them, ability to boot the system from such inferior (but standard) device as floppy is very important. So is for me - and as long as this is possible (without twisting our brains in knots :-) I'd like to keep the size of picobsd below 1.44MB. Of course, this is also a matter of how flexible is the building procedure, so that you could easily change the size parameters if you have enough space on the target media. I'd say it's pretty easy even with current building process. It can be improved, of course... patches are welcome :-) Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 06:23:54 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA15084 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA14979 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 06:22:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA13055; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:26:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:26:00 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: James da Silva cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Small Subject: Yet another configuration model (long) In-Reply-To: <199810051918.PAA21621@torrentnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, James da Silva wrote: > It seems to me that the basic goal here for picoBSD is to be able to > configure the whole thing from one script file, including perhaps some > extensibility (which IOS does not have). Yes, that was my goal when I started this discussion... > But that's not the problem. The problem is the mapping from this small > simple script-based language onto the "real" configuration base of the > system. This can bloat up in a hurry. Yes, that's the main problem. I proposed Forth as an alternative to /bin/sh, because it's smaller and more flexible _for_writing_programs_, not as a user shell per se. Anyway, still the main problem is the structure of the (single) config file, and its relation to UI and existing config files, which are often application-specific (but large part of them is not). My idea was to keep and change the config basing on a single file, and then regenerate needed files on the fly. But I have yet another idea how this could be done... Read on. > Eg, does each subsystem read from the config file, or is there a single > command shell that updates some registry (ldap and agentx spring to mind > for the registry)? Either way, you have to modify all your programs to get > their config info from this centralized place. Or, if you don't want to do It depends on the type of the system. In some cases, all you have to do is just to ifconfig, add static routes and off you go. Besides, we still need (IMVHO) to write more picobsd-ified versions of standard system utilities - making them compatible with the new config scheme would be simple then. > that, you can have your script processor generate the traditional conf > files. The mapping can be complicated if you aren't careful. > > If forth is being considered as way to implement a lot of the > non-performance critical "glue" code, and not necessarily as the interface > through which the admin operates, then that's less controversial. Performance of Forth programs is _way_ better than that of normal shell scripts, at least that's what people say... > > Wouldn't Java or some other bytecode language be similarly compact, or at > least in the same ballpark? I know, a typical java runtime, like tcl, is > bloated; but how much of that is necessary? How big would a simple JVM > with only the basic classes be? I highly doubt you could beat Forth when it comes to resource consumption (not only static size, but also RAM footprint). Unless you can share with us your (free) implementation of the JavaCard standard... :-) But as you noted above, the main problem lies not in the tool with which we write the "configurator", but in its interaction with multiple config files needed by various programs. As a side note: Not long ago I implemented in Java a flexible hierarchical configuration database, where you could store and retrieve device parameters just like this: String loc; Base base=new Base(10); Base b; // Store an object in database. 3rd param. is a type name. // This also does an equivalent of mkdir -p /main_db/devices/UPS/UPS1 base.put("/main_db/devices/UPS/UPS1/location","Main building","String"); b=base.chdir("/main_db/devices/UPS1"); // Retrieve the object. I can also check its type using Base.getType() loc=b.getString("location"); b=b.chdir("../"); // List available keys for( Enumeration e=b.keys(); e.hasMoreElements(); ) { ... } etc, etc... I can imagine something similar to store and change parameters for FreeBSD subsystems (this is what I meant by saying "a config database"), other issue here is something what Java people call "serialization", i.e. changing this database to a flat file. Yet another issue is when exactly the change of a parameter affects running configuration. The "configurator" should monitor what changes were made, and be able to restart appropriate services. And now, for the really wild idea... :-) Yet another idea occured to me: it's also possible to view "the configurator" as a "service (daemon) providing its clients necessary configuration data". In this model, the database could be stored in some internal format known only to the config daemon, and converted on the fly when it receives a request from some client to supply config data. Of course, all programs would have to be converted in order to make calls to the config daemon on startup, register with him to receive notification when configuration changes or when the service should be stopped. Some general aspects of the system (such as ifconfig, static routes, hostname) could be performed by the config daemon itself. Hopefully, one could hide most of the gory details in some library which would translate ordinary calls to read the config file, to calls to the config daemon. Now, what do you think of it? Go, you can laugh at me... ;-) Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 09:01:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA13412 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:01:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpha.netvision.net.il (alpha.netvision.net.il [194.90.1.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13406 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 09:01:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from estein@netvision.net.il) Received: from netvision.net.il (RAS5-p78.hfa.netvision.net.il [62.0.147.78]) by alpha.netvision.net.il (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA12986 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:00:09 +0300 (IDT) Received: from 1 [192.168.0.2] by charlotte.co.il [127.0.0.1] with SMTP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP4.R) for ; Tue, 06 Oct 1998 18:05:47 +0200 Received: by 1 with Microsoft Mail id <01BDF154.1CFCD340@1>; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:07:00 -0000 Message-ID: <01BDF154.1CFCD340@1> From: Eli Stein To: "'freebsd-small@freebsd.org'" Subject: freebsd on embedded pentium??? Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 18:06:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: freebsd-small@freebsd.org X-Return-Path: estein@netvision.net.il Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, I am considering to use a freebsd on an embedded Pentium board. 1. Are there commercial companies that support such application (development environment etc.) 2. If not, can anyone suggest a good starting point to handle such a project. Thanks and best regards Eli Stein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 11:25:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA11087 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:25:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from red.juniper.net (red.juniper.net [208.197.169.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA11059 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:25:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tli@juniper.net) Received: from chimp.juniper.net (chimp.juniper.net [208.197.169.196]) by red.juniper.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA13016; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tli@localhost) by chimp.juniper.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id LAA28018; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 11:25:31 -0700 (PDT) To: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WWW i/f References: <000501bdf069$12346d60$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> From: Tony Li Date: 06 Oct 1998 11:25:30 -0700 In-Reply-To: asmodai@wxs.nl's message of 5 Oct 98 22:31:03 GMT Message-ID: <82hfxhzgx1.fsf@chimp.juniper.net> Lines: 32 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) writes: > >The same applies to command lines. If you design badly you get a bad result > >(hence the comments earlier in this group about how bad Cisco IOS is. > >Command line completion does a lot to "rescue" the useability of Cisco IOS). > > What's so wrong about IOS? I still don't see it. The problem with IOS is that the command structure and interaction is completely inconsistent from command to command. This came about because the command parsing and consistency was originally done by one engineer, but as Cisco scaled up, it got distributed and there was no centralized design to provide for consistency across the command line. Some processes were put in place to try to control this, but it was not a clear focus of the company and by then the basic damage was done. To be fair, the other problem was that there was incremental development of many features and it was never possible to grapple with the entire human interface until after it had already shipped. We should separate the results of the above problem with the good aspects of IOS: the command completion (blatantly stolen from Tops-20) and help strings made the command line tolerable. Bottom line: if you can map out the command hierarchy today for everything that you want to do for the next 3 years, you're probably ok with a command line interface. Tony [cisco employee '91-'96] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 13:04:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03625 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:04:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from pak.texar.com (pak.texar.com [207.112.49.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03600 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:04:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dseg@pak.texar.com) Received: (from dseg@localhost) by pak.texar.com (8.8.7/8.8.3) id QAA24716; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:08:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 16:08:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Seguin To: FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Jerry Hicks wrote: > > I'll bet we will find a new set of FreeBSD aficionados created when some > implementation gets released. See comp.lang.forth for lively discussion. > > Forth is very much alive and kicking. When one is seeking a minimalist > solution, I can't think of a better alternative to assembly code. > > Cheers, > > Jerry Hicks > jerry.hicks@glenayre.com > Has anyone considered Scheme48? It is completely scalable, and implementing your own language (keyword, tokens or otherwise) is extremely simple. It is a virtual machine based intrepreter/compiler and you can have as small or as big of an implementation as you need. It was developed for embedded purposes, namely robotic control. There is also (albeit big) implementation as an extended shell. Dan Seguin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 13:54:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16380 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:54:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailhub1.anasazi.com (mailhub1.anasazi.com [138.113.128.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16258 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:54:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chad@rez.com) Received: from chad.anasazi.com (chad.anasazi.com [138.113.128.36]) by mailhub1.anasazi.com (8.8.5/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA00425 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 13:54:00 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from chad@anasazi.com) Message-ID: <361A8367.3F54BC7E@anasazi.com> Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 13:53:59 -0700 From: "Chad R. Larson" Organization: Anasazi, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04 (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: New microdrives from IBM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Another storage solution. http://www.storage.ibm.com/hardsoft/diskdrdl/micro/index.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 15:37:28 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17535 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17437 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.58.124]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA50E; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:36:58 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 23:37:35 +0200 To: "Christopher G. Petrilli" From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f Cc: FreeBSD Small In-Reply-To: <19981005141735.53074@amber.org> References: <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> <199810032345.TAA21910@whizzo.transsys.com> <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 20:17 05-10-98 , Christopher G. Petrilli wrote: >On Mon, Oct 05, 1998 at 11:32:42AM -0400, Jerry Hicks wrote: >> >> [snip: various arguments] >> >> Not necessarily... Quite a few mortals know how to code Forth. I have >> enjoyed a fair amount of success over the years introducing Forth to new >> programmers. > >This is really not a valid argument. Quite a few mortals know x86 >assembler, but that hardly makes it attractive I think the >reality is that RPN is totally foreign to most people, at least those >who don't keep a traditional HP calculator by their sides. Heh, depends on what it will be used for... It is small though ;) >> Anyone who used WordPerfect or bootstraps a late model Sun also qualifies as a >> user of a Forth system. > >Regardless, user is one thing, coder is a totally seperate thing. Very true, hence the fact that most *NIX users still have some affection/background with programming-related issues... And then there is the Linux 'l33t groups ;) >> > Why wouldn't something based on TCL be a better choice? Sysadmins are >> > probably more likely to be familiar with it (perhaps due to experience >> > with "expect"). It has a pretty reasonable syntax, and perhaps >> > a more familair procedural type model. >> >> I can see getting a complete Forth onto the PicoBSD floppy within 8K or so. > >This is a bonus in so much as it presumes that it's needed. Aye, we have to keep thinking small, yet useable... >> We can't do that with TCL. Dunno... Might all be dependant on the amount of supportcode that makes it into the 'kernel' as well as the understanding of the language by it's coder/user. >> I'll bet we will find a new set of FreeBSD aficionados created when some >> implementation gets released. See comp.lang.forth for lively discussion. > >This is NOT why you do things, this is a poor excuse. Heck, then we >should use perl! <0.5 wink> Perl sounds good too ;) Well, the fact that attracted me to picoBSD a few days/weeks ago was the fact that it was going to do the things Cisco/Shiva and other box-routers can do except then for embedded systems or small memory footprint setups... My choice of support was the latter. Not to say I don't see any future in the first, it's just something I cannot discuss about as my knowledge is zero in that area, hence why all my posts take a small setup based on diskettes as startpoint. Narrowminded? Mayhaps =) >> Forth is very much alive and kicking. When one is seeking a minimalist >> solution, I can't think of a better alternative to assembly code. > >Have we really even yet determined that any such solution is needed, or >in fact are we trying to find a hammer to a nail that is only in the >imagination of those among us? I would appreciate CLEAR CONCISE >descriptions of REAL-WORLD problems that this would solve, not some >hyperbole about how it would make thus and such possi ble, which >presumes that anyone in their right midn would WANT it. True, it might be trying to find a nail. The fact is that we have to provide an UI. That's something we all agree upon, as we all see the need to change the default /bin/sh to something less versatile, yet more useful for our goal. See also another post of mine: picoBSD Goals >Remember, PicoBSD is designed to be small and simple, choosing obtuse >(for most people) languages as extension sets is just plain SILLY. Might have a valid point there, but ye forgot one point, the UI will be written in Forth if I understood Andrej correctly. It won't be usable by the admin/user... Regards, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhp/j4Y752GnxADpEQJBfQCgrOda29PbSt04hSwq+Vv3lxHOtn0AoOz9 0/3fxFsfULR9ESfAmA6OW0EQ =YsqV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 15:37:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17576 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17440 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.58.124]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAB50E; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:37:00 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Tue, 06 Oct 1998 23:56:52 +0200 To: FreeBSD Small From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: picoBSD Goals Cc: Andrzej Bialecki Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi, mayhaps unneeded and redundant, if so, just say so, but I think we need some more light in the darkness if we are going to make it all work alright. As far as I can see it the goals below are either my understanding of people's requests or my ideas of what might have a future for picoBSD... Please feel free to comment on it, enhance it, even delete it or add to it ;) Clear goals and ideas for picoBSD: 1) Small OS with emphasis on networking and all related to networking such as routing, bridging & dial solutions, but not limited to those afore mentioned topics. 2) Use of the FreeBSD STABLE, RELEASE and CURRENT/BETA kernels for picoBSD basis. 3) Addition of wide accepted routing protocols at first, maybe expanded with lesser used protocols in traditional *NIX environments, IPX/SPX, XNS, X.25 and what else spring to mind. 4) Security is a prerequisite for configuration safeguarding. 5) Hierarchical grouping structure of command set that allows for clear and useful configuration. Starting from toplevel generic classifications down to very specific configurations. Also, command set versioning independant from kernel versioning. E.g.: --- Dialing | --- User | --- Networking | | | --- IP | | | --- IPX | --- Miscellaneous (Note, above is a very rough idea of how it COULD be, this is going to be one of the better discussions on the list which I foresee in near future ;) 6) Webbased interface for configuration. In my opinion a nice addition to the whole, except in my eyes not that high a priority at this moment, but if/when we are going to start work on the command set we need to check the usefulness on the webinterface too, although that might work totally independant of the command set. 7) Deletion of many subdirectories and commands and a restructuring of the remaining directories in order to create some order for the picoBSD kernel. 8) Make online configuration easy to retrieve info from, not like IOS' list of data, but instead grouped and formatted. 9) Decide on configuration file formats, filenames and directories. 10) Getting rid of *sh's and implement own UI/shell for configuration. Please respond, add, etc... flames: /dev/null ;) Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhqEFYY752GnxADpEQKxpACcDN4FezNhoh7HpM7i9MG/7vuWYd8AoOdl wagmhbZl3f5WIo+q4Q5fAaBP =GWIc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 15:37:42 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17564 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17447 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.58.124]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAC50E; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:37:02 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:02:11 +0200 To: James da Silva From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Cc: FreeBSD Small , Mike Smith In-Reply-To: <199810051918.PAA21621@torrentnet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 21:18 05-10-98 , James da Silva wrote: > > > >IOS is not a good example to follow here. > > > Well it might be a source for command names ;) > > Not even that. IOS's command interface is a festering abomination. > > Emulating it would be a major error. > >Unless you're trying to sell a router to people who have it memorized >already, warts and all. :-) But that's not what we're aiming at ;) >It seems to me that the basic goal here for picoBSD is to be able to >configure the whole thing from one script file, including perhaps some >extensibility (which IOS does not have). Extensibility sounds good, would an basic UI work as a start point and then for the various configs create some sort of plug-in that allows normal FreeBSD boxen to creates personalized disks of picoBSD (each with his own components needed to perform a given task)? >An extensible config language can be very small and very quickly >implemented. I had thought the TCL interpreter core (minus all the library >routines) was very small, maybe something went wrong. Forth certainly >qualifies. Small schemes (eg siod) qualify. A simple line-based mini- >language can be cons'ed up in a weekend. Choosing among these is pure >religion. What we have to look at with the languages are: size, speed, extensibility and especially use. >If forth is being considered as way to implement a lot of the >non-performance critical "glue" code, and not necessarily as the interface >through which the admin operates, then that's less controversial. I thought Andrej was very clear in that? Or maybe I was misinterpreting him, but as far as I understood it, he wanted to use Forth for the whole UI thing which provides the command set for the admins to use. >Wouldn't Java or some other bytecode language be similarly compact, or at >least in the same ballpark? I know, a typical java runtime, like tcl, is >bloated; but how much of that is necessary? How big would a simple JVM >with only the basic classes be? Dunno, any way of finding out? Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhqFVIY752GnxADpEQJxHQCg/U5OMBzkI427XshJqcbqugH1XA4An21a h2TcEZIMQxnLNQQov5Cpz+LN =intb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 15:37:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17586 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17484 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.58.124]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAF50E; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:37:07 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:08:43 +0200 To: Mike Smith From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Cc: "Louis A. Mamakos" , Jerry Hicks , FreeBSD Small , Andrzej Bialecki In-Reply-To: <199810052337.QAA00680@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 01:37 06-10-98 , Mike Smith wrote: >> Want to support yer statement? =) Just curious about the how and why... > >The major nits which get me: > > - Inconsistent terminology. > - There's usually at least 2 ways of doing something, and at most one > of those will be like how you would do a similar thing to a slightly > different object. > - No structure (you will usually visit several subsystems in order to > perform any configuration task). > - No scriptability (there's an IOS with Tcl embedded inside Cisco, but > they won't let it out). > >Basically, IOS's command interface is a hack. So then I guess we have to do our utmost attempt as to provide a much, much, much better interface/command set =) All voice opinions please! Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhqG3IY752GnxADpEQJP0gCfQ/5sc7ZQslIjbjGUWAokiPLvm/kAn2ja pBmlBBFcL27f+/ad0lC8GEpN =2ipW -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 15:37:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17601 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17502 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.58.124]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAD50E; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:37:04 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:05:02 +0200 To: Peter Wallace , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: References: <199810051921.PAA11350@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 22:41 05-10-98 , Peter Wallace wrote: > Whats the big deal about cramming this onto a single floppy... >Wouldn't a real embedded FreeBSD application use a small flash drive? The >smallest chips that we use now are 4 M Bytes and about $12.00, cheaper >than a floppy drive! See my other post for that... I am just speaking from out of the point of people/departments having underpowered machines that cannot hold a full 'empty' FreeBSD setup (because of lack of CD-ROM, HD space, whatever). Another term might be 'quick and dirty router' regards, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhqF/oY752GnxADpEQJtzgCfe5y/EKLt3nIeQeUaL8NHG2mh2zAAn131 CkAnCdQ/+UReJ798BoAYzRLo =75ld -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 15:37:52 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17611 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17486 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.58.124]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAG50E; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:37:09 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:15:24 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki , Peter Wallace From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 14:19 06-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: >On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Peter Wallace wrote: >> On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: >> >> > > Whats the big deal about cramming this onto a single floppy... >> > > Wouldn't a real embedded FreeBSD application use a small flash drive? The >> > > smallest chips that we use now are 4 M Bytes and about $12.00, cheaper >> > > than a floppy drive! >> > >> > Lots of "embedded" stuff involves an ordinary PC bolted to the inside >> > of a big wooden box or similar. >> >> But I think lots _more_ embedded stuff will be: higher reliability >> / wider ambient temperature range / smaller size / and lower cost than can >> be achieved with a floppy for boot device... > >You're of course right. The truly embedded solution would be to use an SBC >with DiskOnChip and no moving parts. But that's much more expensive... > >> I guess it depends on what the imagined target for PicoBSD is. > >OTOH, there are many people who want to use their spare, old PCs as a >turnkey networking device. For them, ability to boot the system from such >inferior (but standard) device as floppy is very important. So is for me - >and as long as this is possible (without twisting our brains in knots :-) >I'd like to keep the size of picobsd below 1.44MB. Aye, isn't there a mechanism that allows us to boot from one disk and then work on the second one? Caching everything we need from disk #1 into memory and then load the actual UI from the second disk. This solution is based on the fact that we might end up with a kickass picoBSD that beats IOS and SpiderSoftware's router software, but requires two disks for all the stuff *dreaming now* =) Another advantage this set-up might have is that the config files are safe on disk #2 and might be easily upgraded by the new software on disk#1 should it become available. >Of course, this is also a matter of how flexible is the building >procedure, so that you could easily change the size parameters if you have >enough space on the target media. I'd say it's pretty easy even with >current building process. It can be improved, of course... patches are >welcome :-) Well, one thing me could add (didn't see it in the current version) is a sort of script that takes advantage of the local HD (if it is there) and prepares a native FreeBSD slice to be used by the system... As always, reactions please =) Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhqIbYY752GnxADpEQL0/wCgsUOdtJhezHCNkmhkXVa4BmReE0sAn04x Vd01Uf0BQ3RdK6plRnWddkQA =1fHr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 15:37:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17628 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17523 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.58.124]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAH50E; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:37:11 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:29:22 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki , James da Silva From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Yet another configuration model (long) Cc: Mike Smith , FreeBSD Small In-Reply-To: References: <199810051918.PAA21621@torrentnet.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 15:26 06-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: >On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, James da Silva wrote: >> But that's not the problem. The problem is the mapping from this small >> simple script-based language onto the "real" configuration base of the >> system. This can bloat up in a hurry. > >Yes, that's the main problem. I proposed Forth as an alternative to >/bin/sh, because it's smaller and more flexible _for_writing_programs_, >not as a user shell per se. Anyway, still the main problem is the >structure of the (single) config file, and its relation to UI and existing >config files, which are often application-specific (but large part of them >is not). Why would we need to allow programming to admins/users on a, say, router? As far as I can see we only need an UI with a command set to let the admin manipulate the device. Note that I am speaking out of my router/dial up/in experiences mostly... >My idea was to keep and change the config basing on a single file, and >then regenerate needed files on the fly. But I have yet another idea how >this could be done... Read on. One file? Hmmm, sounds awkward. Better would be to use small files based on toplevel structuring or some other similar grouping, as constantly updating one big file when one change 172.16.0.5 to 172.16.0.4 sound tedious. All IMO offcourse... >> Eg, does each subsystem read from the config file, or is there a single >> command shell that updates some registry (ldap and agentx spring to mind >> for the registry)? Either way, you have to modify all your programs to get >> their config info from this centralized place. Or, if you don't want to do > >It depends on the type of the system. In some cases, all you have to do is >just to ifconfig, add static routes and off you go. Besides, we still need >(IMVHO) to write more picobsd-ified versions of standard system utilities >- making them compatible with the new config scheme would be simple then. OK, that's one of the top priorities I think, to strip all the useful networking manipulation tools to the barest minimum, yet usable, form. Any pointers how to create a work directory under FreeBSD 3.0 in which I can maintain different picoBSD images along with the patches/diffs? I have some ideas, but some of you have already done it and might warn me for some pitfalls. >> that, you can have your script processor generate the traditional conf >> files. The mapping can be complicated if you aren't careful. >> >> If forth is being considered as way to implement a lot of the >> non-performance critical "glue" code, and not necessarily as the interface >> through which the admin operates, then that's less controversial. > >Performance of Forth programs is _way_ better than that of normal shell >scripts, at least that's what people say... Lame Q, was Forth a scripting language or a progamming language? I have been to forth.org and read the discussion but haven't paid attention to that point... =| >But as you noted above, the main problem lies not in the tool with which >we write the "configurator", but in its interaction with multiple config >files needed by various programs. > >And now, for the really wild idea... :-) *Bracing self* >Yet another idea occured to me: it's also possible to view "the >configurator" as a "service (daemon) providing its clients necessary >configuration data". In this model, the database could be stored in some >internal format known only to the config daemon, and converted on the fly >when it receives a request from some client to supply config data. Of >course, all programs would have to be converted in order to make calls to >the config daemon on startup, register with him to receive notification >when configuration changes or when the service should be stopped. Some >general aspects of the system (such as ifconfig, static routes, hostname) >could be performed by the config daemon itself. Hopefully, one could hide >most of the gory details in some library which would translate ordinary >calls to read the config file, to calls to the config daemon. > >Now, what do you think of it? Go, you can laugh at me... ;-) OK, lemme repharse all that: O = database of configuration * = client (service/daemon) admin tries to ping from the router, and the IP stack hasn't done any config of the router yet (lame and very lame example =P ) so the client will ask the IP number, netmask and gateway from the Configuration Database Manager(CDM)? Admin | IP # ping 172.16.0.8 ( * --------[get IP config data request]-----> O * <-------[supplied IP config data ack]----- 0 ) Or am I missing something? (I know the example sucks heavily, better one would be with dial up, fetching remote adresses from the CDM including PAP/CHAP authentication specifics, telephone numbers, etc) regards, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhqLs4Y752GnxADpEQIrLQCfeskKBhVyc7Psb8bddWcvHwmHchMAoIhC /lE1x9obO99eR5O4heV46PkR =N6Xj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 15:37:55 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17635 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17466 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.58.124]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAE50E; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:37:05 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:07:19 +0200 To: Peter Wallace , Jerry Hicks From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199810052109.RAA11605@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 23:44 05-10-98 , Peter Wallace wrote: >On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Jerry Hicks wrote: >> > Whats the big deal about cramming this onto a single floppy... >> > Wouldn't a real embedded FreeBSD application use a small flash drive? The >> > smallest chips that we use now are 4 M Bytes and about $12.00, cheaper >> > than a floppy drive! >> Of course, flash drives are hardly ubiquitous just now. Older PC's with >> floppy drive are abundantly available to the average user. > Of course our interest is more for embedded systems than people >with a spare PC... Indeed, we have currently two types of picoBSD users defined, the ones for real embedded system set-ups and the ones using them on 'underpowered' machines/PC's, as Jerry and me said... regards, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhqGh4Y752GnxADpEQL23gCfV44boEr5OPPwve4f3FESYBdUqlsAoN/n 7iwo0O06L1j+Qtj9KrpbddT+ =vIId -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 15:38:00 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA17667 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:38:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA17504 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 15:37:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.58.124]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAI50E; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:37:14 +0200 Message-Id: X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:31:41 +0200 To: Tony Li From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: WWW i/f Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <82hfxhzgx1.fsf@chimp.juniper.net> References: <000501bdf069$12346d60$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 At 20:25 06-10-98 , Tony Li wrote: >asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) writes: > >> What's so wrong about IOS? I still don't see it. > >The problem with IOS is that the command structure and interaction is >completely inconsistent from command to command. This came about because >the command parsing and consistency was originally done by one engineer, >but as Cisco scaled up, it got distributed and there was no centralized >design to provide for consistency across the command line. So we have to keep the command set a central repository of discussion in order to avoid the above mentioned problems... >We should separate the results of the above problem with the good aspects >of IOS: the command completion (blatantly stolen from Tops-20) and help >strings made the command line tolerable. Aye, I liked the command completion, and the help worked good too... >Bottom line: if you can map out the command hierarchy today for everything >that you want to do for the next 3 years, you're probably ok with a command >line interface. Suggestions towards achieving this goal? Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0 for non-commercial use iQA/AwUBNhqMPoY752GnxADpEQJelQCeNSTtk5Yn8LARNt5wWxS61Npe7c0Anj3a rf2M0tCpypu0viNVlWJshjnL =FJNA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 17:35:16 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10709 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:35:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from chickenbean.ais-gwd.com (chickenbean.com [205.160.97.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA10537; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:34:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from charlespeters@tecpro.com) Received: from ci1000971-d.sptnbrg1.sc.home.com (sandman@ci1000971-d.sptnbrg1.sc.home.com [24.4.115.200]) by chickenbean.ais-gwd.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id UAA07911; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:50:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from charlespeters@tecpro.com) Reply-To: From: "Charles A. Peters" To: , Subject: Setting up PicoBSD Dialup to do network routing for a lan via dialup ppp and network interface card Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 20:35:01 -0400 Message-ID: <001601bdf18a$52932dc0$c8730418@ci1000971-d.sptnbrg1.sc.home.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I am interested in setting up picobsd to do routing for my small lan via a dialup connection. I would like to have the network card in the bsd box (ip=192.168.0.1) be the default gateway for my Win95, Win98, and WinNT users. I then would like the bsd box to dialup the internet and establish the connection, and begin routing traffic for my local net. I would like the system to disconnect whenever the line is idle for 15 mins., but to automatically reconnect whenever it sees internet traffic on 192.168.0.1. I already have picobsd dialup running ppp, but am a little lost about where to go from here. Also, what changes are required in rc.conf, etc. Thanks in advance! Charles mailto:charlespeters@tecpro.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 17:38:02 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA11377 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:38:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from red.juniper.net (red.juniper.net [208.197.169.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA11270 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:37:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tli@juniper.net) Received: from chimp.juniper.net (chimp.juniper.net [208.197.169.196]) by red.juniper.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA13618; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tli@localhost) by chimp.juniper.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id RAA29327; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 1998 17:37:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810070037.RAA29327@chimp.juniper.net> From: Tony Li To: asmodai@wxs.nl CC: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: (message from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:31:41 +0200) Subject: Re: WWW i/f Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | >Bottom line: if you can map out the command hierarchy today for everything | >that you want to do for the next 3 years, you're probably ok with a command | >line interface. | | Suggestions towards achieving this goal? Warm up the crystal ball. ;-) Tony To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 23:39:25 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA22980 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:39:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA22966 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:39:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA22720; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:43:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 08:43:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Eli Stein cc: "'freebsd-small@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: freebsd on embedded pentium??? In-Reply-To: <01BDF154.1CFCD340@1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Eli Stein wrote: > Hi, > > I am considering to use a freebsd on an embedded Pentium board. > > 1. Are there commercial companies that support such application > (development environment etc.) Well, not that I'm aware of... but see the www.freebsd.org link under commercial support. Now, that you asked this question directly, perhaps someone will speak up... :-) > 2. If not, can anyone suggest a good starting point to handle such a > project. See the archives of this list - there are quite a few people here who already went through this experience. Ask them. Then share the results with rest of us, if you can :-) Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Tue Oct 6 23:43:44 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23781 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:43:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from red.juniper.net (red.juniper.net [208.197.169.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23776 for ; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:43:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tli@juniper.net) Received: from chimp.juniper.net (chimp.juniper.net [208.197.169.196]) by red.juniper.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA29969; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:43:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tli@localhost) by chimp.juniper.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id XAA00122; Tue, 6 Oct 1998 23:43:26 -0700 (PDT) To: chad@rez.com (Chad R. Larson) cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New microdrives from IBM References: <361A8367.3F54BC7E@anasazi.com> From: Tony Li Date: 06 Oct 1998 23:43:25 -0700 In-Reply-To: chad@rez.com's message of 6 Oct 98 20:53:59 GMT Message-ID: <82vhlwc1o2.fsf@chimp.juniper.net> Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG chad@rez.com (Chad R. Larson) writes: > Another storage solution. > > http://www.storage.ibm.com/hardsoft/diskdrdl/micro/index.htm Unfortunately, they don't seem to be touting the incredibly high MTBF numbers that one might like for an embedded systems product. Tony To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 00:34:31 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03119 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:34:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03114 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:34:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA24120; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:39:24 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:39:24 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: picoBSD Goals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > Clear goals and ideas for picoBSD: > > 1) Small OS with emphasis on networking and all related to networking such > as routing, bridging & dial solutions, but not limited to those afore > mentioned topics. I understand "small" as "limited and predictable resource consumption". With this definition, a system which uses 40MB flash disk running on a 4MB SBC also fits within our interests... > 2) Use of the FreeBSD STABLE, RELEASE and CURRENT/BETA kernels for picoBSD > basis. Yes. BTW. If anyone wants to take care of producing -STABLE floppies, step up, please :-) - all machines within my reach are running -current... > 3) Addition of wide accepted routing protocols at first, maybe expanded > with lesser used protocols in traditional *NIX environments, IPX/SPX, XNS, > X.25 and what else spring to mind. Your point 2) contradicts with 3), unless you are willing to resurrect support for these protocols in the standard FreeBSD kernel... Do we have enough people to work exclusively on making a _PICO_ BSD specific kernel? I don't think so. Let's better stick with the standard /sys (providing necessary patches and features, of course). So, for the nearest future we'll stick with IP (perhaps IPX and ATM). > 4) Security is a prerequisite for configuration safeguarding. Wellll... yes (though I'm not sure I understand the above... :-) Let me rephrase it. 4) Security measures should be such that prevent unauthorized users to either change it's configuration and/or operation, or gain access to sensitive data (passwords, SNMP community strings etc..), while at the same time allowing for convenient access for authorized users. Well, but I'd say it's true in every situation, isn't it? Here's what I think should be added, and what's specific to our target "market": 4a) Use of widely accepted protocols for distributed authentication (such as Radius, Tacacs, Kerberos). > 5) Hierarchical grouping structure of command set that allows for clear > and useful configuration. Starting from toplevel generic classifications > down to very specific configurations. Also, command set versioning > independant from kernel versioning. > > E.g.: --- Dialing > | > --- User > | > --- Networking > | | > | --- IP > | | > | --- IPX > | > --- Miscellaneous > > (Note, above is a very rough idea of how it COULD be, this is going to be > one of the better discussions on the list which I foresee in near future ;) Yes, definitely. The above describes only how it could look from the user's perspective, and doesn't say anything about how to translate the UI commands to the actual configuration requests for the underlying subsystems. > 6) Webbased interface for configuration. In my opinion a nice addition to > the whole, except in my eyes not that high a priority at this moment, but > if/when we are going to start work on the command set we need to check the > usefulness on the webinterface too, although that might work totally > independant of the command set. Well, I think we can keep in mind that perhaps some day we will want to present the config data via WWW. But we need to resolve the more basic issues first... > 7) Deletion of many subdirectories and commands and a restructuring of the > remaining directories in order to create some order for the picoBSD kernel. s/kernel/userland/. With this change - yes. But it's natural consequence of different configuration scheme. > 8) Make online configuration easy to retrieve info from, not like IOS' > list of data, but instead grouped and formatted. > > 9) Decide on configuration file formats, filenames and directories. > > 10) Getting rid of *sh's and implement own UI/shell for configuration. I think 8 and 9 are just consequences of 10. Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 00:38:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04044 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:38:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles29.castles.com [208.214.165.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04025 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:38:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01190; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810070743.AAA01190@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Andrzej Bialecki cc: Eli Stein , "'freebsd-small@freebsd.org'" Subject: Re: freebsd on embedded pentium??? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Oct 1998 08:43:37 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 00:43:27 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I am considering to use a freebsd on an embedded Pentium board. > > > > 1. Are there commercial companies that support such application > > (development environment etc.) > > Well, not that I'm aware of... but see the www.freebsd.org link under > commercial support. > > Now, that you asked this question directly, perhaps someone will speak > up... :-) What sort of "development environment" are you looking for? FreeBSD includes a fairly comprehensive one already. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 00:56:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA07052 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:56:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from red.juniper.net (red.juniper.net [208.197.169.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA07047 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:56:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tli@juniper.net) Received: from chimp.juniper.net (chimp.juniper.net [208.197.169.196]) by red.juniper.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02674; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:56:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tli@localhost) by chimp.juniper.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id AAA00363; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 00:56:17 -0700 (PDT) To: estein@netvision.net.il (Eli Stein) cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd on embedded pentium??? References: <01BDF154.1CFCD340@1> From: Tony Li Date: 07 Oct 1998 00:56:17 -0700 In-Reply-To: estein@netvision.net.il's message of 6 Oct 98 18:06:59 GMT Message-ID: <82u31gbyam.fsf@chimp.juniper.net> Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG estein@netvision.net.il (Eli Stein) writes: > I am considering to use a freebsd on an embedded Pentium board. > > 1. Are there commercial companies that support such application (development environment etc.) > > 2. If not, can anyone suggest a good starting point to handle such a project. Dunno exactly what you're looking at, but you might wanna look around at CompactPCI. Start with Motorola and Ziatech. Both will run FreeBSD. Tony To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 01:23:43 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10797 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:23:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fw.tue.le (pC19F2307.dip.t-online.de [193.159.35.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10791 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 01:23:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from thz@lennartz-electronic.de) Received: from mezcal.tue.le (mezcal.tue.le [192.168.201.20]) by fw.tue.le (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA15252; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:24:32 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from thz@mezcal.tue.le) Received: (from thz@localhost) by mezcal.tue.le (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04951; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:24:32 +0200 (MET DST) (envelope-from thz) Message-ID: <19981007092432.A4913@tue.le> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:24:32 +0200 From: Thomas Zenker To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f vs WWW i/f References: <000401bdf065$da48a900$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 12:23:20AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 12:23:20AM +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > True, yet see my other post about the ideas I have a this point about CLI > vs WWW. Enough to say that should we have to implement the www pages, we > need a very minimal HTTP 1.0 compliant daemon, plus the pages, and that all have a look at thttpd of Jef Poskanzer at http://www.acme.com/software/thttpd Very smart, really small footprint, BSD style copyright. I have it running here in our intranet on 386/33 8MB, which has to do other things too. We use FBSD in an embedded application with a 40 MB HD, (20MB + 20MB swap), for configuring the first time we connect VGA/keyboard. But for some time now I am thinking about other solutions as well - WWW would be much more feasible for our customers, they aren't unix freaks at all. -- Thomas Zenker at work thz@lennartz-electronic.de private thz@tuebingen.netsurf.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 04:22:18 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA04639 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 04:22:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fan.net.au (fan.net.au [203.20.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA04629 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 04:22:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hannama@fan.net.au) Received: from andrewh.famzon.com.au (dialup-nas1-54.bris.fan.net.au [202.179.224.55]) by fan.net.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA06511; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:21:22 +1000 (EST) From: "Andrew Hannam" To: "Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai" , "Christopher G. Petrilli" Cc: "FreeBSD Small" Subject: RE: Command-line i/f Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:19:36 +1000 Message-ID: <000101bdf1e4$5e0279e0$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >> Not necessarily... Quite a few mortals know how to code > Forth. I have > >> enjoyed a fair amount of success over the years introducing > Forth to new > >> programmers. > > > >This is really not a valid argument. Quite a few mortals know x86 > >assembler, but that hardly makes it attractive I think the > >reality is that RPN is totally foreign to most people, at least those > >who don't keep a traditional HP calculator by their sides. > > Heh, depends on what it will be used for... It is small though ;) With all this discussion on Forth, I ask myself why people are looking for alternatives to the most common script language/command line (/bin/sh). The obvious answer is size but yet it was not so long ago that I remember seeing versions of sh below the 10K mark in size (albiet 16 bit versions). What happenned ? - Job control, command line completion and all sorts of other very nice features. Has anyone looked back into history to find a far more minimal version of the shell that is more suitable to PicoBSD's requirements ? Whilst writing 32 bit code may cause larger binaries - we have the advantages of shared libraries to help reduce it again. Anyone know of such an implementation with appropriate source licenses? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 05:27:34 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA10218 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 05:27:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA10207 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 05:27:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA08948; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:31:30 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:31:29 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Andrew Hannam cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Christopher G. Petrilli" , FreeBSD Small Subject: RE: Command-line i/f In-Reply-To: <000101bdf1e4$5e0279e0$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Andrew Hannam wrote: > With all this discussion on Forth, I ask myself why people are looking for > alternatives to the most common script language/command line (/bin/sh). The > obvious answer is size but yet it was not so long ago that I remember seeing > versions of sh below the 10K mark in size (albiet 16 bit versions). What > happenned ? - Job control, command line completion and all sorts of other > very nice features. > Has anyone looked back into history to find a far more minimal version of > the shell that is more suitable to PicoBSD's requirements ? > Whilst writing 32 bit code may cause larger binaries - we have the > advantages of shared libraries to help reduce it again. > Anyone know of such an implementation with appropriate source licenses? Yes. If I have enough time, I may perhaps even today add a link to it on picobsd home page. I took it from Minix distribution. It does most things the /bin/sh does (though I haven't tested it thoroughly yet), and it's small (ca. 40kB). The most obvious deficiency is lack of support for user-defined functions, and this is a serious one. I plan also to port an editor from Minix - it comes out slightly smaller than our ee. Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 05:38:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA11269 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 05:38:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA11258 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 05:38:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA14894; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:43:01 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:43:01 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Andrew Hannam cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Christopher G. Petrilli" , FreeBSD Small Subject: RE: Command-line i/f In-Reply-To: <000101bdf1e4$5e0279e0$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Andrew Hannam wrote: > With all this discussion on Forth, I ask myself why people are looking for > alternatives to the most common script language/command line (/bin/sh). The ...and I forgot to add that /bin/sh scripts don't completely solve our problems. /bin/sh requires many additional utilities in order to build a usable script, such as "test", "echo", "date", "expr", "kill" etc, etc... However, I admit that it's syntax is more known that that of Forth ;-) Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 07:00:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA23784 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:00:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dworkin.amber.org (dworkin.amber.org [209.31.146.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA23779 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:00:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from petrilli@dworkin.amber.org) Received: (from petrilli@localhost) by dworkin.amber.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA03261; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:00:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19981007100029.30754@amber.org> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:00:29 -0400 From: "Christopher G. Petrilli" To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New microdrives from IBM Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG References: <361A8367.3F54BC7E@anasazi.com> <82vhlwc1o2.fsf@chimp.juniper.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <82vhlwc1o2.fsf@chimp.juniper.net>; from Tony Li on Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 11:43:25PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 11:43:25PM -0700, Tony Li wrote: > chad@rez.com (Chad R. Larson) writes: > > > Another storage solution. > > > > http://www.storage.ibm.com/hardsoft/diskdrdl/micro/index.htm > > > Unfortunately, they don't seem to be touting the incredibly high MTBF > numbers that one might like for an embedded systems product. Unfortunately most embedded environments I've worked with, moving disks aren't really acceptable as the G forces will kill them... try saking your notebook around while it's runnning and slamming it against the wall, etc :-) Please don't call me for warranty I think it's extreemly important to focus on a GOOD flash file system---I'd settle for something a'la RT-11 and contiguous files---that doesn't have huge impact on flash re-write lifetimes. As for the IBM drives, they look mega-cool, and will probably be useful for a large number of applications, but I hazard they'll be IDE attached immediately, if not sooner, and therefore aren't anything to worry about :-) BTW, for those worrying about cramming it onto a 1.44Mb floppy for reasons of flash size, I went looking, and it's damned hard to find anything under 2MB of flash any more, and many many many boards support up to 72MB of FlashDisk. While I understand the need to conservce space---if not the need to spell correctly ---I think that it is important to focus on what the embedded world needs, and make sure we can STRIP it to fit on a floppy, but not that we obsess over making sure it fits in all forms. Chris -- | Christopher Petrilli | petrilli@amber.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 07:31:33 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29958 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:31:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.intercom.com ([207.51.55.117]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA29951 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:31:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jason@intercom.com) Received: from intercom.com (shagalicious.com [206.98.165.250]) by mail.intercom.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA22783 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:31:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <361B7B87.CE5B9D96@intercom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:32:39 -0400 From: "Jason J. Horton" X-Sender: "Jason J. Horton" <@mail.intercom.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5b2 [en]C-NECCK (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: Command-line i/f References: <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> <199810032345.TAA21910@whizzo.transsys.com> <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Quick question. Has support been added to the standard router distrib to handle T1, Frame Relay, E1, FDDI, ATM and HSSI cards? Also, has anyone heard if anyone is developing a solution for multiport ethernet cards, maybe even trying to create a Fast EtherChannel like driver? -J To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 07:42:50 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01612 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:42:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from samizdat.uucom.com (samizdat.uucom.com [198.202.217.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA01595 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 07:42:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cshenton@uucom.com) Received: (from cshenton@localhost) by samizdat.uucom.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id KAA26198; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:42:40 -0400 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: FreeBSD Small , Andrzej Bialecki Subject: Re: picoBSD Goals References: From: Chris Shenton Date: 07 Oct 1998 10:42:40 -0400 In-Reply-To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai's message of Tue, 06 Oct 1998 23:56:52 +0200 Message-ID: <86af381li7.fsf@samizdat.uucom.com> Lines: 42 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 20.2 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I'm looking at PicoBSD as an outsider rather than a coder -- looks like it could be very useful/interesting/fun. Just some views on what I'd like in a tiny net-centric OS. Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai writes: > 3) Addition of wide accepted routing protocols at first, maybe expanded > with lesser used protocols in traditional *NIX environments, IPX/SPX, XNS, > X.25 and what else spring to mind. > 4) Security is a prerequisite for configuration safeguarding. > 6) Webbased interface for configuration. > > 9) Decide on configuration file formats, filenames and directories. > > 10) Getting rid of *sh's and implement own UI/shell for configuration. I'd want routing/bridging first, with PPP dial; multipoint PPP a la "mpd" would be a win. Then I'd want firewall features, at least router-style ACL capability, and NAT would be neat. I'd be happy if it had sshd instead of telnet/rsh/ftp. I don't need a web interface, unless it consumes LESS critical resources (disk, mem) than a text file or curses GUI. I would think a web i/f would be more difficult to secure, unless you're doing SSL and that seems large. I personally don't need IPX, X.25, Appletalk, UUCP, etc. Is the intention that I could build a PicoBSD image and just choose what functionality I want in a kernel config file? Like: enable router, bridge, ssh, ipfw, snmp disable ipx, atalk, wwwizard Would be nice to chop-and-change what everyone wants their box to do, based on their boot device (e.g., if I only have a floppy) and memory available (4MB isn't gonna do SSL :-) Cool stuff, thanks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 09:27:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA23498 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:27:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from red.juniper.net (red.juniper.net [208.197.169.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA23459 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:27:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tli@juniper.net) Received: from chimp.juniper.net (chimp.juniper.net [208.197.169.196]) by red.juniper.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA23557; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tli@localhost) by chimp.juniper.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA01216; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:27:26 -0700 (PDT) To: jason@intercom.com (Jason J. Horton) cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f References: <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> <361B7B87.CE5B9D96@intercom.com> From: Tony Li Date: 07 Oct 1998 09:27:26 -0700 In-Reply-To: jason@intercom.com's message of 7 Oct 98 14:32:39 GMT Message-ID: <82k92c2v81.fsf@chimp.juniper.net> Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG jason@intercom.com (Jason J. Horton) writes: > Quick question. Has support been added to the standard router distrib > to handle T1, Frame Relay, E1, FDDI, ATM and HSSI cards? There are working T1, HSSI and FDDI cards today. [SDL, SDL, and DEC, respectively] The ATM card is almost there today, but has some problems. I know of no useful E1 or Frame Relay implementations out there. Tony To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 10:26:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03216 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:26:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03206 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:26:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA26532; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:31:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:31:03 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: "Christopher G. Petrilli" cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New microdrives from IBM In-Reply-To: <19981007100029.30754@amber.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Christopher G. Petrilli wrote: > I think it's extreemly important to focus on a GOOD flash file > system---I'd settle for something a'la RT-11 and contiguous > files---that doesn't have huge impact on flash re-write lifetimes. Hmmm.. What's an RT-11? > BTW, for those worrying about cramming it onto a 1.44Mb floppy for > reasons of flash size, I went looking, and it's damned hard to find > anything under 2MB of flash any more, and many many many boards support > up to 72MB of FlashDisk. While I understand the need to conservce > space---if not the need to spell correctly ---I think that it is > important to focus on what the embedded world needs, and make sure we > can STRIP it to fit on a floppy, but not that we obsess over making > sure it fits in all forms. Good points! This touches one very important issue: currently used way to build the target picobsd system is as inflexible and inconvenient as it could ever get.. :-( We need _some_ way of making it more modular, and easier to modify, without requiring a total recompile each time... Any ideas are welcome (about half a year ago I tried to create a picobsd version which used separate binaries and shared libs... and failed miserably - the whole thing was much bigger and consumed much more memory...). Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 10:30:29 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04381 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:30:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA04361 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:30:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA28233; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:35:26 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 19:35:26 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: "Jason J. Horton" cc: FreeBSD Small Subject: Re: Command-line i/f In-Reply-To: <361B7B87.CE5B9D96@intercom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Jason J. Horton wrote: > Quick question. Has support been added to the standard router distrib > to handle T1, Frame Relay, E1, FDDI, ATM and HSSI cards? T1 and FR require (binary) drivers from particular vendor. ATM - sure, this can be added easily now that we have HARP in the tree - in fact, I use such a floppy presently, and modification were really minor. But this isn't a very common hardware, is it? > Also, has anyone heard if anyone is developing a solution for multiport > ethernet cards, maybe even trying to create a Fast EtherChannel like > driver? As far as I know, multiport eth. cards are seen just like any other cards, except you see just that many of interfaces instead of a single one. Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 10:38:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA05962 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:38:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dworkin.amber.org (dworkin.amber.org [209.31.146.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA05907 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from petrilli@dworkin.amber.org) Received: (from petrilli@localhost) by dworkin.amber.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA06823; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:38:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19981007133806.21614@amber.org> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:38:06 -0400 From: "Christopher G. Petrilli" To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Flash and Configuration Ideas [Was: Re: New microdrives from IBM] Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19981007100029.30754@amber.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Andrzej Bialecki on Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 07:31:03PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 07:31:03PM +0200, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Christopher G. Petrilli wrote: > > > I think it's extreemly important to focus on a GOOD flash file > > system---I'd settle for something a'la RT-11 and contiguous > > files---that doesn't have huge impact on flash re-write lifetimes. > > Hmmm.. What's an RT-11? Oh dear, I date myself :-) RT-11 was an OS from DEC in the 70s and 80s that ran on PDP-11s and was used for real-time systems. I think at one point or another, about half the planet ran on it ;-) The file system was very simple, and didn't have directory structures, which was fine for the time, since RL02 disk packs weren't very big :-) Basically, it required that all files be contiguous (and if I recall, you couldn't append, so you sized it right up front), and if there wasn't enough contiguouos space available for your file (even if there was enough space overall) then you couldn't write it. On occasion you would compact the drive (a deliberate process) and recover space. The reason I rbing this up is multi-fold. One it's trivial simple to implement, even with a directory strucutre. Second it's perfect for configuration files, and such, that don't change much in size. It would reduce the number of read/write/erase cycles on a flash device. BTW, there's another reason for this style file system (Plan 9 offered it as well, I believe in their file server, and Amoeba---a'la Andy Tannenbaum used it as well)--- it's amazingly fast. It runs at the theoretical limits of the device itself. Common benchmarks put FFS at something UNDER 30% utilization because of the seaks, etc. NTFS/FAT are worse than that. A contiguous file system can run at 90%+. This can make a big difference if you have a slow sotrage medium---i.e. PCMCIA flash cards. Just an idea... I can work up some modified Amoeba ideas (no reason to totally reinvent the wheel) if we want. I implemented this once as a prototype for USENET as well, worked 3-4x faster, but was too weird for some people. > > BTW, for those worrying about cramming it onto a 1.44Mb floppy for > > reasons of flash size, I went looking, and it's damned hard to find > > anything under 2MB of flash any more, and many many many boards support > > up to 72MB of FlashDisk. While I understand the need to conservce > > space---if not the need to spell correctly ---I think that it is > > important to focus on what the embedded world needs, and make sure we > > can STRIP it to fit on a floppy, but not that we obsess over making > > sure it fits in all forms. > > Good points! > > This touches one very important issue: currently used way to build the > target picobsd system is as inflexible and inconvenient as it could ever > get.. :-( We need _some_ way of making it more modular, and easier to > modify, without requiring a total recompile each time... Any ideas are > welcome (about half a year ago I tried to create a picobsd version which > used separate binaries and shared libs... and failed miserably - the whole I think what would be nice is a reduced configuration spec (less than the current kernel complexities), that could be used to define what you wanted to build. Maybe even a GNU autoconf style thing? You know, like this: ./configure --enable-ip --enable-routing --enable-ppp --enable-x Or, a simple file that could be parsed quickly to generate teh correct information. It's important I think to realise that it's not important how big the PicoBSD distribution is in it's full form, it's important to keep the CORE piece (kernel, basic utils, ip code) as small as possible, but let the rest grow as necessary. Additionally, a simple command line configuration tool to generate floppy images on the fly would be amazingly useful.... alas, I don't know enough to write such a thing :-) Chris -- | Christopher Petrilli | petrilli@amber.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 10:40:01 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA06201 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:40:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dworkin.amber.org (dworkin.amber.org [209.31.146.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA06180 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:39:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from petrilli@dworkin.amber.org) Received: (from petrilli@localhost) by dworkin.amber.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) id NAA06833; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:39:38 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19981007133938.13295@amber.org> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:39:38 -0400 From: "Christopher G. Petrilli" To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> <361B7B87.CE5B9D96@intercom.com> <82k92c2v81.fsf@chimp.juniper.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <82k92c2v81.fsf@chimp.juniper.net>; from Tony Li on Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 09:27:26AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 09:27:26AM -0700, Tony Li wrote: > jason@intercom.com (Jason J. Horton) writes: > > > Quick question. Has support been added to the standard router distrib > > to handle T1, Frame Relay, E1, FDDI, ATM and HSSI cards? > > > There are working T1, HSSI and FDDI cards today. [SDL, SDL, and DEC, > respectively] The ATM card is almost there today, but has some problems. I > know of no useful E1 or Frame Relay implementations out there. Since this is up your alley Tony :-) Is anyone working on IP-over-SONET? I have a few customers who would like to use this for some applications of connecting high-speed servers to BFRs. Chris -- | Christopher Petrilli | petrilli@amber.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 10:47:11 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA07678 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:47:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freeby.mesanet.com (mesa.dial.idiom.com [209.157.70.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA07660 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:47:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pcw@mesanet.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freeby.mesanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA12491; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:44:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Wallace To: "Christopher G. Petrilli" cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New microdrives from IBM In-Reply-To: <19981007100029.30754@amber.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > BTW, for those worrying about cramming it onto a 1.44Mb floppy for > reasons of flash size, I went looking, and it's damned hard to find > anything under 2MB of flash any more, and many many many boards support > up to 72MB of FlashDisk. While I understand the need to conservce > space---if not the need to spell correctly ---I think that it is > important to focus on what the embedded world needs, and make sure we > can STRIP it to fit on a floppy, but not that we obsess over making > sure it fits in all forms. Thats just what I was trying to say about size & embedded systems... Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 10:56:47 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10444 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:56:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freeby.mesanet.com (mesa.dial.idiom.com [209.157.70.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10420 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:56:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pcw@mesanet.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freeby.mesanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA13079; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:54:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:54:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Wallace To: Mike Smith cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: <199810060316.UAA01889@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics On Mon, 5 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > Whats the big deal about cramming this onto a single floppy... > > > > Wouldn't a real embedded FreeBSD application use a small flash drive? The > > > > smallest chips that we use now are 4 M Bytes and about $12.00, cheaper > > > > than a floppy drive! > > > > > > They don't have mounting screws, nor can you plug them into a standard > > > motherboard. 8) > > > > > > Lots of "embedded" stuff involves an ordinary PC bolted to the inside > > > of a big wooden box or similar. > > > > But I think lots _more_ embedded stuff will be: higher reliability > > / wider ambient temperature range / smaller size / and lower cost than can > > be achieved with a floppy for boot device... > > For that sort of thing, definitely. "Embedded" systems cover an > enormous range, and if you're manufacturing your own hardware, the > story changes rapidly. > > > I guess it depends on what the imagined target for PicoBSD is. > > Extremely varied - I certainly see it being used on flash-based > systems; don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an unencumberd TFFS clone. > 8) Maybe we could give away our BIOS INT 13 FFS code and some kind FreeBSD hacker could munge it into unix land... Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 11:11:13 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13285 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:11:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA13276 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:11:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01379; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:14:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810071814.LAA01379@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Peter Wallace cc: Mike Smith , freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Oct 1998 10:54:11 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 11:14:56 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > Extremely varied - I certainly see it being used on flash-based > > systems; don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an unencumberd TFFS clone. > > 8) > > Maybe we could give away our BIOS INT 13 FFS code and some kind > FreeBSD hacker could munge it into unix land... That'd be an excellent start. I take it that your FFS is proprietary (ie. it's not TFFS-compatible)? I might be available to do this, but if not I'd be more than happy to help anyone that felt like undertaking the development of a generic flash covering layer. (It's not really a filesystem so much as a block manager, correct?) -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 11:33:04 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18216 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:33:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freeby.mesanet.com (mesa.dial.idiom.com [209.157.70.63]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18177 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:32:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pcw@mesanet.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freeby.mesanet.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA15342; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:30:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Peter Wallace To: Mike Smith cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-Reply-To: <199810071814.LAA01379@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Mike Smith wrote: > > > > > > Extremely varied - I certainly see it being used on flash-based > > > systems; don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an unencumberd TFFS clone. > > > 8) > > > > Maybe we could give away our BIOS INT 13 FFS code and some kind > > FreeBSD hacker could munge it into unix land... > > That'd be an excellent start. I take it that your FFS is proprietary > (ie. it's not TFFS-compatible)? Yes, but compatibility for non-removeble media may not be so important... > > I might be available to do this, but if not I'd be more than happy to > help anyone that felt like undertaking the development of a generic > flash covering layer. > > (It's not really a filesystem so much as a block manager, correct?) Right, just logical-physical sector remapping - statistical erase-block/write-target ranking and maintaining erase block statistics in a distributed way. Our method is fairly memory intensive (about 4K RAM per M byte of drive) so mainly suited to smaller drives. Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics > > -- > \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith > \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au > \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org > \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 11:35:17 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19003 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:35:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18977 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pechter@shell.monmouth.com) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by shell.monmouth.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) id OAA03528; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:34:20 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill/Carolyn Pechter Message-Id: <199810071834.OAA03528@shell.monmouth.com> Subject: Re: Flash and Configuration Ideas [Was: Re: New microdrives from IBM] To: petrilli@amber.org (Christopher G. Petrilli) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:34:19 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981007133806.21614@amber.org> from "Christopher G. Petrilli" at Oct 7, 98 01:38:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 07:31:03PM +0200, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > > On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Christopher G. Petrilli wrote: > > > > > I think it's extreemly important to focus on a GOOD flash file > > > system---I'd settle for something a'la RT-11 and contiguous > > > files---that doesn't have huge impact on flash re-write lifetimes. > > > > Hmmm.. What's an RT-11? > > Oh dear, I date myself :-) RT-11 was an OS from DEC in the 70s and 80s > that ran on PDP-11s and was used for real-time systems. I think at one > point or another, about half the planet ran on it ;-) > > The file system was very simple, and didn't have directory structures, > which was fine for the time, since RL02 disk packs weren't very big :-) > Basically, it required that all files be contiguous (and if I recall, > you couldn't append, so you sized it right up front), and if there > wasn't enough contiguouos space available for your file (even if there > was enough space overall) then you couldn't write it. On occasion you > would compact the drive (a deliberate process) and recover space. I believe you could append as long as you didn't hit the contiguous block problem. If there was unused block space behind your file you could extend it. If not...you had to compress the file first or write it to a new series of blocks that could hold the entire file. (Recovering lost files was trivial, you just created a file where the old one was and it's data was back... kind of like CP/M and MS-DOS unerasure.) Bill (old RT11 hacker...) +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Bill and/or Carolyn Pechter | pechter@shell.monmouth.com | | Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in | | a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller | +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 11:46:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21192 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:46:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from freebie.dcfinc.com (freebie.dcfinc.com [138.113.5.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21140 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:46:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chad@freebie.dcfinc.com) Received: (from chad@localhost) by freebie.dcfinc.com (8.8.7/8.8.3a) id LAA24566; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:44:48 -0700 (MST) From: "Chad R. Larson" Message-Id: <199810071844.LAA24566@freebie.dcfinc.com> Subject: Re: New microdrives from IBM To: petrilli@amber.org (Christopher G. Petrilli) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:44:48 -0700 (MST) Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981007100029.30754@amber.org> from "Christopher G. Petrilli" at "Oct 7, 98 10:00:29 am" Reply-to: chad@dcfinc.com X-unexpected: The Spanish Inquisition X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL22 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > On Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 11:43:25PM -0700, Tony Li wrote: > > Unfortunately most embedded environments I've worked with, moving disks > aren't really acceptable as the G forces will kill them... try saking > your notebook around while it's runnning and slamming it against the > wall, etc :-) Please don't call me for warranty Well, they aren't shipping yet, so who really knows. But the initial target market is to replace flash memory cards in digital cameras. In other words, portable consumer products. -crl -- Chad R. Larson (CRL15) 602-953-1392 Brother, can you paradigm? chad@dcfinc.com chad@larsons.org chad@anasazi.com larson1@home.net DCF, Inc. - 14623 North 49th Place, Scottsdale, Arizona 85254-2207 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 11:50:30 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22114 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:50:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dworkin.amber.org (dworkin.amber.org [209.31.146.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22077 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 11:50:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from petrilli@dworkin.amber.org) Received: (from petrilli@localhost) by dworkin.amber.org (8.9.0/8.9.0) id OAA19921; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:50:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <19981007145000.13227@amber.org> Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 14:50:00 -0400 From: "Christopher G. Petrilli" To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New microdrives from IBM Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19981007100029.30754@amber.org> <199810071844.LAA24566@freebie.dcfinc.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89.1i In-Reply-To: <199810071844.LAA24566@freebie.dcfinc.com>; from Chad R. Larson on Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 11:44:48AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 11:44:48AM -0700, Chad R. Larson wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 11:43:25PM -0700, Tony Li wrote: > > > > Unfortunately most embedded environments I've worked with, moving disks > > aren't really acceptable as the G forces will kill them... try saking > > your notebook around while it's runnning and slamming it against the > > wall, etc :-) Please don't call me for warranty > > Well, they aren't shipping yet, so who really knows. But the initial target > market is to replace flash memory cards in digital cameras. In other words, > portable consumer products. I know, but this is quite different than a lot of embedded applications. We'll see anyway, flash is here to stay for the forseeable future, especially since most people don't need 340MB :-) Chris -- | Christopher Petrilli | petrilli@amber.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 12:09:21 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25376 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:09:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25367 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:09:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01805 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:14:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199810071914.MAA01805@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f (Re: PicoBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 07 Oct 1998 11:30:07 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 12:14:32 -0700 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > > > > > > Extremely varied - I certainly see it being used on flash-based > > > > systems; don't get me wrong, I'd love to see an unencumberd TFFS clone. > > > > 8) > > > > > > Maybe we could give away our BIOS INT 13 FFS code and some kind > > > FreeBSD hacker could munge it into unix land... > > > > That'd be an excellent start. I take it that your FFS is proprietary > > (ie. it's not TFFS-compatible)? > > Yes, but compatibility for non-removeble media may not be so important... Indeed, and having something would be much better than having nothing. 8) Most of the removable media these days seems to be ATA-based anyway, with the FFS embedded in the device itself. > > I might be available to do this, but if not I'd be more than happy to > > help anyone that felt like undertaking the development of a generic > > flash covering layer. > > > > (It's not really a filesystem so much as a block manager, correct?) > > Right, just logical-physical sector remapping - statistical > erase-block/write-target ranking and maintaining erase block statistics in > a distributed way. Our method is fairly memory intensive (about 4K RAM per > M byte of drive) so mainly suited to smaller drives. It sounds like it would best be implemented as a covering layer which looks like a block device on top and uses a set of basic access primitives on the bottom to access the flash device itself. Hmm. Is your code in C or x86 assembler? Do you have (ready to hand) functional documentation on the on-chip data structures, etc.? -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 12:54:20 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04989 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:54:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04911 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:54:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.122]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAD5AD4; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:53:56 +0200 X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 21:53:47 +0200 To: Chris Shenton From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: picoBSD Goals Cc: FreeBSD Small , Andrzej Bialecki In-Reply-To: <86af381li7.fsf@samizdat.uucom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <771898EF14E6.AAD5AD4@smtp01.wxs.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 16:42 07-10-98 , Chris Shenton wrote: >I'm looking at PicoBSD as an outsider rather than a coder -- looks >like it could be very useful/interesting/fun. Just some views on what >I'd like in a tiny net-centric OS. Indeed, although I have no idea what I started with some of my remarks since I joined the list a week or two ago ;) I now see more and more posts, that's good... Hope that makes Andrzej happy ;) >I'd want routing/bridging first, with PPP dial; multipoint PPP a la >"mpd" would be a win. Then I'd want firewall features, at least >router-style ACL capability, and NAT would be neat. I'd be happy if >it had sshd instead of telnet/rsh/ftp. is mpd a FreeBSD standard or is it a package out there on the web? If so, have an URL handy ? >I don't need a web interface, unless it consumes LESS critical >resources (disk, mem) than a text file or curses GUI. I would think a >web i/f would be more difficult to secure, unless you're doing SSL >and that seems large. Well, obviously as I am starting to see now thanks to some on this list, picoBSD is already used in commercial environments where there will be (l)users administrating the system that don't know jack of command line configuration or that aren't willing to learn. >I personally don't need IPX, X.25, Appletalk, UUCP, etc. So these could make it to the selection menu for custom picoBSD's? I myself need IPX, as we run a Novell orientated network which uses some NetWare/IP, but we have to wait for the implementation of NetWare 5 before we can migrate... >Is the intention that I could build a PicoBSD image and just choose >what functionality I want in a kernel config file? Like: > > enable router, bridge, ssh, ipfw, snmp > disable ipx, atalk, wwwizard Well that's what I am aiming to with my customising/plug-in/modular setup idea. Just enable that which ye like and leave out the rest... >Would be nice to chop-and-change what everyone wants their box to do, >based on their boot device (e.g., if I only have a floppy) and memory >available (4MB isn't gonna do SSL :-) > >Cool stuff, thanks. That's what gives us a woody ;) Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 12:54:37 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05142 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:54:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04966 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:54:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.122]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAB5AD4; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 21:53:53 +0200 X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 21:42:15 +0200 To: Tony Li From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: WWW i/f Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199810070037.RAA29327@chimp.juniper.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <771898EF14E6.AAB5AD4@smtp01.wxs.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:37 07-10-98 , Tony Li wrote: > >| >Bottom line: if you can map out the command hierarchy today for everything >| >that you want to do for the next 3 years, you're probably ok with a command >| >line interface. >| >| Suggestions towards achieving this goal? > > >Warm up the crystal ball. ROFL! =) But seriously, surely there must be some prediction we can make for a half year or year's worth of commands? ;) With a business as this we obviously need some other methods to achieve that goal then. Is something along the plug-in module line usable? If someone has better ideas to achieve this goal, please share them as this may be the biggest hangman for the command set... regards Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 12:58:56 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06606 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:58:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from red.juniper.net (red.juniper.net [208.197.169.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06579 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:58:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tli@juniper.net) Received: from chimp.juniper.net (chimp.juniper.net [208.197.169.196]) by red.juniper.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09195; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tli@localhost) by chimp.juniper.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id MAA02081; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199810071957.MAA02081@chimp.juniper.net> From: Tony Li To: asmodai@wxs.nl CC: chad@rez.com, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <771898EF14E6.AAC5AD4@smtp01.wxs.nl> (message from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Wed, 07 Oct 1998 21:43:08 +0200) Subject: Re: New microdrives from IBM Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG | >> http://www.storage.ibm.com/hardsoft/diskdrdl/micro/index.htm | > | > | >Unfortunately, they don't seem to be touting the incredibly high MTBF | >numbers that one might like for an embedded systems product. | | Call me lame, but what was MTBF again? Thought it was related to HD's ? Mean Time Between Failure. It applies to components as well as systems. Yes, they relate to HD's (which the IBM disk _is_). Without a MTBF similar to that of a flash device (very high -- no moving parts), a HD will drag down the MTBF numbers of the overall system. Not good if you have to absolutely, positively not fail. Tony To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 12:59:49 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06881 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:59:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alakai.mindsong.com (alakai.mindsong.com [204.145.255.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06806 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 12:59:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danno@mindsong.com) Received: from m142.mindsong.com (m142.mindsong.com [204.145.255.142]) by alakai.mindsong.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA19199 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 10:01:56 -1000 (HST) Received: by m142.mindsong.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BDF1D9.0F1D0800@m142.mindsong.com>; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:58:40 -1000 Message-ID: <01BDF1D9.0F1D0800@m142.mindsong.com> From: dan bigelow To: "'freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: what constitutes 'stripped' (basic needs)? was Re: new micro drives... Date: Wed, 7 Oct 1998 09:58:38 -1000 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG given the following edited stuff... >> ...I think that it is >> important to focus on what the embedded world needs, and make sure we >> can STRIP it to fit on a floppy, but not that we obsess over making >> sure it fits in all forms. > > Thats just what I was trying to say about size & embedded >systems... > >Peter Wallace How about a quick baseline... what constitutes the 'stripped' - basic machine? As a framework to work from, let's assume the function of the 'basic' machine (either in the building stage or initial run stage), is to boot, run, and be able to start included programs, or add/start kits at will. I think this has to be distinguished from any other function of the box (routing, file-server, web-server, ???) to be a useful discussion... e.g. before the box is useful, when is it 'alive' and what does it take to get to that point...and beyond! So - naturally we need a kernel and basic file system (ramdisk or flash or floppy or...). To be minimal, the kernel, modules/drivers for the chosen hardware and filesystem need to be selectable and available quite early (true minimums). At the build stage, only the desired stuff can be added. Not very generic, but nice and small! Next, add the tools to get the system resources (mount, a shell(?), inits, updates, crons, etc.) up, and the actual system resources (init, crond...)... here's where the idea of minimum get's interesting and relative... What shells and start-ups are really the minimums before we go 'useful'? Next, the archiving, compression, and related kit management tools (tar, cpio, gunzip, etc) to extract the desired kits from the chosen fs or tftp (if they've been separated...) - net stuff may go here in some configs, later if possible... Process control utils (basically ps and kill to start with), maybe the /proc fs Then, shell utils for file handling (mknod, chmod, chown, ls, rm, mv, cp, ln, ...) can be built into a single busybox... - (charles, remember 'PIP' ? peripheral interchange program on the rsx-11s?) Then, the system monitor/control programs (ps, df, du, top...) Then phase 2 function adding? network tools (ifconfig, netstat, route, ppp, diald, etc.), hardware drivers to work the interfaces The good stuff - server daemons, data, mail, remote access (telnetd sshd), small editors, backup utils to save system states... Then the luxuries - vi, emacs(so much for flash disk ;^), perl, shells, file utils (head, od, tail, ?), docs, ??? Comments? things out of order? missed things? To define these layers may actually help enhance the build and install process of these systems by grouping the design decisions coherently at each layer - birth then life then communication then interaction then learning then function then stability... i dunno - but i'd like to. --danno (hormel@mindsong.com) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 13:15:45 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10845 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:15:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from red.juniper.net (red.juniper.net [208.197.169.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10779 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:15:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tli@juniper.net) Received: from chimp.juniper.net (chimp.juniper.net [208.197.169.196]) by red.juniper.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA10334; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:15:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from tli@localhost) by chimp.juniper.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) id NAA02189; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:15:10 -0700 (PDT) To: petrilli@amber.org (Christopher G. Petrilli) cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Command-line i/f References: <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> <19981007133938.13295@amber.org> From: Tony Li Date: 07 Oct 1998 13:15:10 -0700 In-Reply-To: petrilli@amber.org's message of 7 Oct 98 17:39:38 GMT Message-ID: <82emskdt81.fsf@chimp.juniper.net> Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG petrilli@amber.org (Christopher G. Petrilli) writes: > Since this is up your alley Tony :-) Is anyone working on > IP-over-SONET? I have a few customers who would like to use this for > some applications of connecting high-speed servers to BFRs. Yes, there is one card that supports IP over SONET. The driver is not yet in reasonable shape and the card is known to be suboptimal. If someone was interested in a small high-end hardware project, this would be a Good Thing IMHO. Tony To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 13:22:58 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12869 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:22:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12859 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.122]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA41E8; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:22:42 +0200 X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:07:16 +0200 To: Thomas Zenker From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f vs WWW i/f Cc: small@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19981007092432.A4913@tue.le> References: <000401bdf065$da48a900$0104010a@andrewh.famzon.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <771898F08C1.AAA41E8@smtp04.wxs.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:24 07-10-98 , Thomas Zenker wrote: >On Tue, Oct 06, 1998 at 12:23:20AM +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> True, yet see my other post about the ideas I have a this point about CLI >> vs WWW. Enough to say that should we have to implement the www pages, we >> need a very minimal HTTP 1.0 compliant daemon, plus the pages, and that all > >We use FBSD in an embedded application with a 40 MB HD, (20MB + 20MB swap), >for configuring the first time we connect VGA/keyboard. But for some time >now I am thinking about other solutions as well - WWW would be much more >feasible for our customers, they aren't unix freaks at all. Aye, that is something that slipped past my thoughts... That might also mean that command set would be the biggest userland usable configuration tool, next to the web interface and any other ingenious solutions not yet brought forward... Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 13:23:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12901 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:23:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12882 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:23:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.122]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAB41E8; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:22:44 +0200 X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:24:38 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: picoBSD Goals Cc: FreeBSD Small In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <771898F08C1.AAB41E8@smtp04.wxs.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 09:39 07-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: >On Tue, 6 Oct 1998, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >> Clear goals and ideas for picoBSD: >> >> 1) Small OS with emphasis on networking and all related to networking such >> as routing, bridging & dial solutions, but not limited to those afore >> mentioned topics. > >I understand "small" as "limited and predictable resource consumption". >With this definition, a system which uses 40MB flash disk running on a 4MB >SBC also fits within our interests... My idea of small is as in small memory footprint, small code yer powerful and strong. >> 2) Use of the FreeBSD STABLE, RELEASE and CURRENT/BETA kernels for picoBSD >> basis. > >Yes. > >BTW. If anyone wants to take care of producing -STABLE floppies, step up, >please :-) - all machines within my reach are running -current... Lemme finish up my other partition for STABLE then... Then I can work on both CURRENT as well as STABLE (2.2.7 declared STABLE yet?) >> 3) Addition of wide accepted routing protocols at first, maybe expanded >> with lesser used protocols in traditional *NIX environments, IPX/SPX, XNS, >> X.25 and what else spring to mind. > >Your point 2) contradicts with 3), unless you are willing to resurrect >support for these protocols in the standard FreeBSD kernel... I already raised my voice for that on the Networking list. Except it's hard to get documentation about XNS and X.25 without paying, any pointers are welcome, or at least where I can order them. IPX/SPX is still widely used... >Do we have enough people to work exclusively on making a _PICO_ BSD >specific kernel? I don't think so. Let's better stick with the standard >/sys (providing necessary patches and features, of course). Dunno, do we? Could we open a seperate CVS directory in which we could put stripped down versions of the /sys-sources? Just a suggestion... >So, for the nearest future we'll stick with IP (perhaps IPX and ATM). IP sounds good =) > > 4) Security is a prerequisite for configuration safeguarding. > >Wellll... yes (though I'm not sure I understand the above... :-) Let me >rephrase it. > >4) Security measures should be such that prevent unauthorized users to >either change it's configuration and/or operation, or gain access to >sensitive data (passwords, SNMP community strings etc..), while at the >same time allowing for convenient access for authorized users. That's what I said ;) >Well, but I'd say it's true in every situation, isn't it? Here's what I >think should be added, and what's specific to our target "market": Aye, but often the most obvious things that stare us in the face are forgotten... >4a) Use of widely accepted protocols for distributed authentication (such >as Radius, Tacacs, Kerberos). Yeah been scoping up some docs about them. Got any more reference URL's? I have two RFCs about TACACS, plus a draft from Cisco about XTACACS. Also isn't Kerberos resticted? Radius? Know the name, there ends my understanding =) >> 5) Hierarchical grouping structure of command set that allows for clear >> and useful configuration. Starting from toplevel generic classifications >> down to very specific configurations. Also, command set versioning >> independant from kernel versioning. >> >> E.g.: --- Dialing >> | >> --- User >> | >> --- Networking >> | | >> | --- IP >> | | >> | --- IPX >> | >> --- Miscellaneous >Yes, definitely. The above describes only how it could look from the >user's perspective, and doesn't say anything about how to translate the UI >commands to the actual configuration requests for the underlying >subsystems. Indeed, it's just a global cut. As far as I see it, certain commands alter certain files for the reasons I stated in another mail (too long a config file/one command needs to rewrite the whole file) [reply to point 6, WWW interface] >Well, I think we can keep in mind that perhaps some day we will want to >present the config data via WWW. But we need to resolve the more basic >issues first... My idea exactly. >> 7) Deletion of many subdirectories and commands and a restructuring of the >> remaining directories in order to create some order for the picoBSD kernel. > >s/kernel/userland/. With this change - yes. But it's natural consequence >of different configuration scheme. Offcourse, yet again, the obvious might have to be restated for all to know the how and what. >> 8) Make online configuration easy to retrieve info from, not like IOS' >> list of data, but instead grouped and formatted. >> >> 9) Decide on configuration file formats, filenames and directories. >> >> 10) Getting rid of *sh's and implement own UI/shell for configuration. > >I think 8 and 9 are just consequences of 10. Aye, I realized that as I wrote it, but I felt the need to split them up so they wouldn't be too crowded... Btw, if people want me to, I could write a text file that carries these point and to which we could draft other ideas/goals as to make it publicaly available to allow 'outsiders' to see what we are up to, apart from our secret missions offcourse ;) Imagine the Linux people getting air of the revolution we are planning *G* =) Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 13:28:08 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14124 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:28:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14063 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:28:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.122]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAAD00; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:27:52 +0200 X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:29:40 +0200 To: "Jason J. Horton" From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f Cc: FreeBSD Small In-Reply-To: <361B7B87.CE5B9D96@intercom.com> References: <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> <199810032345.TAA21910@whizzo.transsys.com> <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <771898F0ABF.AAAD00@smtp01.wxs.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 16:32 07-10-98 , Jason J. Horton wrote: >Quick question. Has support been added to the standard router distrib >to handle T1, Frame Relay, E1, FDDI, ATM and HSSI cards? The answer to that lies, currently (future might be slightly different), in the CURRENT and RELEASE/STABLE kernels, if they have it, we can implement it, most likely. >Also, has anyone heard if anyone is developing a solution for multiport >ethernet cards, maybe even trying to create a Fast EtherChannel like >driver? Again, see the above and please let us know the results. I would love to answer yer questions, but I don't know the answers (yet) =) Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 13:37:38 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16685 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16624 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:37:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.122]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA104E; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:37:08 +0200 X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:33:36 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki , "Christopher G. Petrilli" From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: New microdrives from IBM Cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19981007100029.30754@amber.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <771898F0E7A.AAA104E@smtp02.wxs.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 19:31 07-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: >On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Christopher G. Petrilli wrote: > >> BTW, for those worrying about cramming it onto a 1.44Mb floppy for >> reasons of flash size, I went looking, and it's damned hard to find >> anything under 2MB of flash any more, and many many many boards support >> up to 72MB of FlashDisk. While I understand the need to conservce >> space---if not the need to spell correctly ---I think that it is >> important to focus on what the embedded world needs, and make sure we >> can STRIP it to fit on a floppy, but not that we obsess over making >> sure it fits in all forms. > >This touches one very important issue: currently used way to build the >target picobsd system is as inflexible and inconvenient as it could ever >get.. :-( We need _some_ way of making it more modular, and easier to >modify, without requiring a total recompile each time... Any ideas are >welcome (about half a year ago I tried to create a picobsd version which >used separate binaries and shared libs... and failed miserably - the whole >thing was much bigger and consumed much more memory...). That's what I have been nagging about in my last few posts =) We need to 'develop'/establish a method of modular building under the FreeBSD box we have at out disposal. I am going to need to switch to my FreeBSD partition for all my work instead of this NT partition. Hard to switch from one system to another completely ;) I shall try to put something on paper tomorrow about how to achieve the goal in my eyes and will then mail it to the group. Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 13:37:39 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16693 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:37:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16637 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:37:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.122]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAB104E; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:37:09 +0200 X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:35:15 +0200 To: Andrzej Bialecki , "Jason J. Horton" From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f Cc: FreeBSD Small In-Reply-To: References: <361B7B87.CE5B9D96@intercom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <771898F0E7A.AAB104E@smtp02.wxs.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 19:35 07-10-98 , Andrzej Bialecki wrote: >On Wed, 7 Oct 1998, Jason J. Horton wrote: > >> Quick question. Has support been added to the standard router distrib >> to handle T1, Frame Relay, E1, FDDI, ATM and HSSI cards? > >T1 and FR require (binary) drivers from particular vendor. ATM - sure, >this can be added easily now that we have HARP in the tree - in fact, I >use such a floppy presently, and modification were really minor. But this >isn't a very common hardware, is it? True, but isn't his the point in which we have to profile picoBSD? Multirouting/dialing solution for embedded and underpowered systems? >> Also, has anyone heard if anyone is developing a solution for multiport >> ethernet cards, maybe even trying to create a Fast EtherChannel like >> driver? > >As far as I know, multiport eth. cards are seen just like any other cards, >except you see just that many of interfaces instead of a single one. Ah, ok, that enlightened me =) regards, Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 13:37:41 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16695 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:37:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16639 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 13:37:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from diabolique ([195.121.59.122]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAC104E; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 22:37:11 +0200 X-Sender: skywise@pop.wxs.nl X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Demo Date: Wed, 07 Oct 1998 22:38:42 +0200 To: "Christopher G. Petrilli" From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: Command-line i/f Cc: FreeBSD Small In-Reply-To: <19981007133938.13295@amber.org> References: <82k92c2v81.fsf@chimp.juniper.net> <199810051532.LAA10779@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> <361B7B87.CE5B9D96@intercom.com> <82k92c2v81.fsf@chimp.juniper.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-ID: <771898F0E7A.AAC104E@smtp02.wxs.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 19:39 07-10-98 , Christopher G. Petrilli wrote: >On Wed, Oct 07, 1998 at 09:27:26AM -0700, Tony Li wrote: >> jason@intercom.com (Jason J. Horton) writes: >> >> > Quick question. Has support been added to the standard router distrib >> > to handle T1, Frame Relay, E1, FDDI, ATM and HSSI cards? >> >> There are working T1, HSSI and FDDI cards today. [SDL, SDL, and DEC, >> respectively] The ATM card is almost there today, but has some problems. I >> know of no useful E1 or Frame Relay implementations out there. > >Since this is up your alley Tony :-) Is anyone working on >IP-over-SONET? I have a few customers who would like to use this for >some applications of connecting high-speed servers to BFRs. Let's draw up a list of protocols which are being requested/used a lot and not a lot and let's try to see how we can implement most of them on short term and others on long term, I for one would be happy to dedicate a lot of time to get those protocols back up to CURRENT and RELEASE/STABLE. I hope others might want to help out too? Because I see this as THE point in which picoBSD may be stronger than 'competitors'. That's all my opinion though, and everyone on this list knows by know that I am protocol/routing mad and love disks =) *chuckles* Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven / Asmodai ICQ-UIN: 1564317 .:. Ninth Circle Enterprises Network/Security Specialist /==|| FreeBSD and picoBSD, the Power to Serve ||==\ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Wed Oct 7 23:15:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA29952 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 23:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Thingol.KryptoKom.DE (Thingol.KryptoKom.DE [194.245.91.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA29947 for ; Wed, 7 Oct 1998 23:15:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Reinier.Bezuidenhout@KryptoKom.DE) Received: (from mail@localhost) by Thingol.KryptoKom.DE (8.8.7/8.8.4) id IAA01566; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:06:52 +0200 Received: from cirdan.kryptokom.de by via smtpp (Version 1.1.1b4) id kwa01564; Thu Oct 08 08:06:33 1998 Received: by Cirdan.KryptoKom.DE (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA10020; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:11:58 +0200 Received: (from bez@localhost) by borg.kryptokom.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01229; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:13:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from bez) From: Reinier Bezuidenhout Message-Id: <199810080613.IAA01229@borg.kryptokom.de> Subject: Re: New microdrives from IBM In-Reply-To: from Andrzej Bialecki at "Oct 7, 1998 7:31: 3 pm" To: abial@nask.pl (Andrzej Bialecki) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:13:36 +0200 (CEST) Cc: petrilli@amber.org, freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi ... > > can STRIP it to fit on a floppy, but not that we obsess over making > > sure it fits in all forms. > > Good points! > > This touches one very important issue: currently used way to build the > target picobsd system is as inflexible and inconvenient as it could ever > get.. :-( We need _some_ way of making it more modular, and easier to > modify, without requiring a total recompile each time... Any ideas are I agree on this .. at the moment I want picobsd to run on a 40MB flash disk ... that looks like an IDE .. it would be great to have some kind of installation that can be configure on which size disk you want it, 1.44 or XX MB .. I have to get such a system up and running pretty soon and I would not mind helping in getting some kind of installation / configuration thingy working. Reinier To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Oct 8 05:11:59 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA20245 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 05:11:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iglou.com (iglou1.iglou.com [192.107.41.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA20229 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 05:11:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from patrick@cre8tivegroup.com) Received: from [204.255.227.127] (helo=gateway.cre8tivegroup.com) by iglou.com with esmtp (8.9.1/8.9.1) id 0zREuG-0003rZ-00; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:10:56 -0400 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <771898EF14E6.AAD5AD4@smtp01.wxs.nl> Date: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 08:10:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Patrick Gardella To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Subject: Re: picoBSD Goals Cc: Andrzej Bialecki , FreeBSD Small , Chris Shenton Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 07-Oct-98 Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >>I'd want routing/bridging first, with PPP dial; multipoint PPP a la >>"mpd" would be a win. > > is mpd a FreeBSD standard or is it a package out there on the web? If so, > have an URL handy ? Take a look at /ports/net/mpd. Never used it, but looks like we have a port! (More details at ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/archie/mpd/). I thought Brian had brought this code into the latest version of userland ppp. Or he is working on it now. Patrick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Oct 8 08:55:26 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA22636 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:55:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from chaco.whistle.com (s205m9.whistle.com [207.76.205.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA22604 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:55:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bmann@whistle.com) Received: from chaco.whistle.com (chaco.whistle.com [207.76.205.9]) by chaco.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA19589; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:54:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 1998 08:54:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Bryan Mann To: Patrick Gardella cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Andrzej Bialecki , FreeBSD Small , archie@whistle.com, Chris Shenton Subject: Re: picoBSD Goals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 8 Oct 1998, Patrick Gardella wrote: > > On 07-Oct-98 Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >>I'd want routing/bridging first, with PPP dial; multipoint PPP a la > >>"mpd" would be a win. > > > > is mpd a FreeBSD standard or is it a package out there on the web? If so, > > have an URL handy ? > > Take a look at /ports/net/mpd. Never used it, but looks like we have a port! > (More details at ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/archie/mpd/). I thought Brian had > brought this code into the latest version of userland ppp. Or he is working on > it now. > Just to pile on a bit more regarding mpd. Archie has been working on mpd in -current for awhile now and recently released a new and improved version. I believe that while it's available as a port you shouldn't have any problems with it on either -stable or -current. Note, I've CC'ed Archie on this email so he can straighten me out :-) Bryan. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- When the weight of the paperwork equals the weight of the plane, the plane will fly. -- Donald Douglas (This signature brought to you courtesy of fortune(6) and cron(8).) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Oct 8 17:31:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA29753 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:31:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hilda.sci.usq.edu.au (hilda.sci.usq.edu.au [139.86.144.152]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA29701 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 17:31:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vance@usq.edu.au) Received: (qmail 14430 invoked by uid 205); 9 Oct 1998 00:31:17 -0000 Message-ID: <19981009003117.14417.qmail@usq.edu.au> X-Face: VBG60|k'4FzQAk.lEL//A=jDc@.*^5c^^(#755qSb~E~lhP7%JOW!_)Oauu?Y(|)0Xn|UBK Wb$c5EvA>x<^g&TNFNLS9}\FDFw{F,b8%u%>Xb_2}4b}p Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 09 Oct 1998 10:31:17 +1000 From: Christopher JS Vance Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In message , Andrz ej Bialecki wrote: | I'm glad to announce that the whole PicoBSD source tree has been imported | into official FreeBSD CVS tree under: | | src/release/picobsd This appears to be true only in 3.0-current, not in 2.2.7-stable. Does picobsd compile/build under -stable, or do I have to compile/ build under -current? How much of -current do I need build before I can build pBSD? -- Christopher To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Thu Oct 8 22:54:53 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29752 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 22:54:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29747 for ; Thu, 8 Oct 1998 22:54:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA23433; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:59:06 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 07:59:06 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Christopher JS Vance cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PicoBSD CVS tree In-Reply-To: <19981009003117.14417.qmail@usq.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 9 Oct 1998, Christopher JS Vance wrote: > In message l>, Andrz > ej Bialecki wrote: > > | I'm glad to announce that the whole PicoBSD source tree has been imported > | into official FreeBSD CVS tree under: > | > | src/release/picobsd > > This appears to be true only in 3.0-current, not in 2.2.7-stable. Yes, this was a deliberate decision. > Does picobsd compile/build under -stable, or do I have to compile/ > build under -current? How much of -current do I need build before I > can build pBSD? As others tested this, it should build without any problem on 2.2.7 and higher. You can download the standalone tar archive with the tree. Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Fri Oct 9 13:02:23 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07791 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:02:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07716 for ; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 13:02:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from erbas@erbas.demon.co.uk) From: erbas@erbas.demon.co.uk Received: from [212.228.57.75] (helo=erbas.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.03 #1) id 0zRhny-0007cY-00 for small@freebsd.org; Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:02:22 +0000 To: small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Web site online order Form Message-Id: Date: Fri, 9 Oct 1998 19:02:22 +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dear customer We have had communication in the past and this email is to notify you that our Web page has been completed. Take a look at http://www.Douglasvalley.co.uk The Email address is Jason@Douglasvalley.co.uk Email dave@erbas.demon.co.uk Douglas Valley Breakers still the Uk's Largest Prestige Car Dismanlter & Performance Part Retailer. Dismantling Rolls, Ferrari, subaru, TVR, Lotus, Porsche, Mercedes & BMW. Regards Dave Erbas Jones Customer Account Manager To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Oct 10 10:28:05 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA03101 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:28:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from neuron.hippocampus.net (neuron.hippocampus.net [204.138.241.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03020 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 10:28:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc@hippocampus.ca) Received: from localhost (marc@localhost) by neuron.hippocampus.net (Stealth/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA25697 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 13:28:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 13:28:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Nicholas X-Sender: marc@neuron.hippocampus.net To: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: LM78 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey folks... Our new SBCs have LM78 onboard and I got to thinking it would be nice to utilize it ;-) Are there any development efforts already in this area? If not, I was toying with the idea of cooking up some LM78 code... Comments, ideas, flames? -marc -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hippocampus OSD, Inc. "Industrial Strength Internet Solutions" vox://416.979.9000 fax://416.979.8223 http://www.hippocampus.net =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Host your business website for only $29/month! 1.877.GO.HIPPO To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Oct 10 14:36:19 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04089 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:36:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from korin.warman.org.pl (korin.nask.waw.pl [148.81.160.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04082 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 14:36:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from abial@nask.pl) Received: from localhost (abial@localhost) by korin.warman.org.pl (8.9.1/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA22122; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:40:41 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: korin.warman.org.pl: abial owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 23:40:40 +0200 (CEST) From: Andrzej Bialecki X-Sender: abial@korin.warman.org.pl To: Marc Nicholas cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: LM78 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Marc Nicholas wrote: > Hey folks... > > Our new SBCs have LM78 onboard and I got to thinking it would be nice to > utilize it ;-) > > Are there any development efforts already in this area? If not, I was > toying with the idea of cooking up some LM78 code... > > Comments, ideas, flames? Sure - what is LM87? :-) BTW. Does it mean that you actually produce these SBCs? Andrzej Bialecki -------------------- ++-------++ ------------------------------------- ||PicoBSD|| FreeBSD in your pocket? Go and see: Research & Academic |+-------+| "Small & Embedded FreeBSD" Network in Poland | |TT~~~| | http://www.freebsd.org/~picobsd/ -------------------- ~-+==---+-+ ------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-small Sat Oct 10 15:46:46 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11732 for freebsd-small-outgoing; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 15:46:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from neuron.hippocampus.net (neuron.hippocampus.net [204.138.241.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA11727 for ; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 15:46:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc@hippocampus.ca) Received: from localhost (marc@localhost) by neuron.hippocampus.net (Stealth/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA26120; Sat, 10 Oct 1998 18:47:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 1998 18:47:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Marc Nicholas X-Sender: marc@neuron.hippocampus.net To: Andrzej Bialecki cc: freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: LM78 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-small@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, 10 Oct 1998, Andrzej Bialecki wrote: > > Our new SBCs have LM78 onboard and I got to thinking it would be nice to > > utilize it ;-) > > > > Are there any development efforts already in this area? If not, I was > > toying with the idea of cooking up some LM78 code... > > > > Comments, ideas, flames? > Sure - what is LM87? :-) http://www.national.com/news/1996/9608/lm78.html Basically, it's an IC that monitors temperature, fan speed, voltage, etc. Some motherboards have them built-in or have support for the chip. Ideal for embedded, industrial, server or appliance systems. > BTW. Does it mean that you actually produce these SBCs? Nope...I just meant the SBCs we use... -marc -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Hippocampus OSD, Inc. "Industrial Strength Internet Solutions" vox://416.979.9000 fax://416.979.8223 http://www.hippocampus.net =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Host your business website for only $29/month! 1.877.GO.HIPPO To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-small" in the body of the message