From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 0:20:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D6FE15123 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:20:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Dave@Yost.com) Received: from [205.219.69.138] (205-219-69-138.bayarea.net [205.219.69.138]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA03207; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:20:26 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: dayost@mail.bayarea.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:19:55 -0800 To: stox@enteract.com From: Dave Yost Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:13 AM -0600 1999-02-28, Kenneth P. Stox wrote: > RANT MODE ignored. What you say will have to stand on its merits. > OK folks, let me make this clear, GET A CLUE!! > > The endless bickering between a minority of the Linux and FreeBSD > communities is completely counter-productive. Positioning FreeBSD against > Linux is about as useful as getting a job for the Microsoft PR department > as far as getting the real goals achieved. And the real goals are: _______ > > 1) FreeBSD developments have helped the Linux community. > > 2) Linux developments have helped the FreeBSD community. > > 3) FSF developments have helped both communities. All true. > > Let's keep it that way, and work off each other's strengths, instead of > picking apart each other's weaknesses. > > We should be making allies of the Linux community and encourage them to > make allies of us. FreeBSD and Linux can complement each other. How? Maybe I'm dumb. Please educate me as to how they complement each other? If one gets more mindshare than another, does all work stop on free unices? No. If 95% of the ongoing work (including the porting and marketing of commercial software) goes to linux, then what happens to FreeBSD? Every platform competes with every other platform for mindshare, some more than others. That's the way it is. All of the free unices are competing now against each other because of the big press frenzy over linux, and linux is being pushed way to the top by the press. Why? Not because it's better. I want to see the best of the free unices enjoy the biggest mindshare and therefore most software availability. > We should > be working to that end. > > Just a silly thought to put into you heads, have you ever thought that > just maybe, the instigators of many of these arguments in public forums > just might be professional Microsoft evangelists ? We might be playing > right into their hands. I think that's probably true, though "evangelists" may not be the right identification. The main idea, I think, on this round, was to trump up something, anything, as a worthy competitor to make themselves look less invulnerable. Linux seemed the best candidate at the moment. If all this is true, then they have created a PR monster, but it is to the detriment of FreeBSD mindshare all the same. I have seen many linux articles and TV reports in recent weeks, and _never_ even a mention of the existence of FreeBSD or other free unices. This is a PR disaster. > Does the idea of "Divide and conquer" come to mind? Interesting idea. > > Dave To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 6: 2:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1EBC14F00 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 06:02:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-057.thuntek.net [207.66.52.57]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA02555; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 07:02:23 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36D95A1F.B240306C@thuntek.net> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 07:00:47 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Yost Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dave - The name game can get too ugly for a publicity stunt. From what I've seen of the two sides, opinions are strongly held. There's also the matter of 'BSD', which we are only allowed to use in conjunction with Free, Net or Open by the graces of BSDi in the original AT&T settlement (from what I gather in 5 yrs of BSD-list watching). Another issue sure to come up would be Beastie, our BSD mascot. Guarantee that'd get ugly, just scan back through -advocacy, it has come up regularly. I've been on both sides of that issue. A far better 'spectacle' would be the re-integration of the three freebies mentioned above into one super-BSD, or at least full compatibility between the three as far as binaries and ports go. If it's "back to", would you care to write some articles for http://www.DaemonNews.com or take a stab at submitting to a trade pub like InfoWorld or Dr. Dobbs or WebTechniques? These are gentler, but less dangerous in the long run. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 8:14:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0049615299 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 08:14:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA212118443; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:14:03 -0500 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 11:14:03 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Dave Yost Cc: stox@enteract.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Dave Yost wrote: > > The endless bickering between a minority of the Linux and FreeBSD > > communities is completely counter-productive. Positioning FreeBSD against > > Linux is about as useful as getting a job for the Microsoft PR department > > as far as getting the real goals achieved. > > And the real goals are: _______ Widespread use and powerful native commercial software sound nice. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 13:49:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E4015396 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:49:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14534; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:16:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd014518; Sun Feb 28 15:16:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA06378; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 14:48:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902282148.OAA06378@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) To: stox@enteract.com Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:48:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Kenneth P. Stox" at Feb 28, 99 00:13:06 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > OK folks, let me make this clear, GET A CLUE!! > > The endless bickering between a minority of the Linux and FreeBSD > communities is completely counter-productive. Positioning FreeBSD against > Linux is about as useful as getting a job for the Microsoft PR department > as far as getting the real goals achieved. You are missing the point, I think. He isn't talking about "market share" here any more, he is talking about "press share". Right now, Linux has the dominant "press share" of any OS (I guess it's a monopoly... }B^p). > Just a silly thought to put into you heads, have you ever thought that > just maybe, the instigators of many of these arguments in public forums > just might be professional Microsoft evangelists ? We might be playing > right into their hands. Does the idea of "Divide and conquer" come to > mind? > > No, I don't think they are professional Microsoft evangelists; but I thing that they are the beginnings of a more professional form of BSD evangelist, and I think that scares a lot of people. A good evangelist tends to have a lot of control over the direction of that which he or she is evangelizing. If you are carrying a flag, and a professional flag carrier comes along to walk with you, and attracts several other people to walk with you as well, and then you hand them the flag while you tie your shoes, there's no telling where that flag is going to be carried. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 16:57:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74A5A15324 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:57:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@pike.cdrom.com) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by pike.cdrom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA24952; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:58:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> To: Dave Yost Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@pike.cdrom.com Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:56:06 PST." Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:58:42 -0800 From: "Robert A. Bruce" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dave Yost said... >First order of business, I think is that http://www.freebsd.org/ must have a >prominent main heading: > FreeBSD vs. linux and others >which leads to some simple, forthright information suitable for nontechnical >journalists and TV news people. It should also have a big, forbidding table >with lots of X marks for stuff FreeBSD has that linux doesn't and as much >technical backup material as possible. What does FreeBSD have that Linux doesn't? I don't think that such a table would be very "forbidding". Seriously, I am working on a chart to hand out at the FreeBSD booth at LinuxWorld next week, and I am having a hard time coming up with a list of things that FreeBSD does better than Linux. Most claims of FreeBSD superiority boil down to: 1. "FreeBSD is more reliable", with no objective evidence to back up that claim. 2. "FreeBSD has better performance", with little evidence to back up that claim either. FreeBSD seems to have better performance on network intensive applications when the system is heavily loaded (http://advisor.gartner.com/n_inbox/hotcontent/hc_2121999_3.html) but I haven't seen any clear evidence that FreeBSD outperforms Linux in other areas or under other conditions. There are other points that people bring up, such as better kernel architecture, etc. But that is pretty meaningless to an typical end-user. If I was trying to come up with the opposite list (areas where Linux beats FreeBSD) the job would be much easier: 1. Linux runs on way more platforms (sparc, powerpc, mips,... heck it even runs on a PalmPilot). 2. Linux has better support for realtime operations. 3. Linux supports more perephrials (USB, etc.) 4. Linux has real multiprocessor threads 5. Linux has a lot more native commercial applications. 6. etc... So if you can send me a list of areas where FreeBSD beats Linux, I would greatly appreciate it. If you can back up any claims of better performance/reliability with published reports or repeatable benchmarks, that would be great. But I am happy to take anecdotes too. The chart is pretty sparse right now, so I am not picky. -bob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 17:49:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bga.com (apm7-203.realtime.net [204.96.0.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F333C150F1 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:48:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jktheowl@bga.com) Received: (from jktheowl@localhost) by bga.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA22222; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:57:43 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:57:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199903010157.TAA22222@bga.com> From: John Kenagy To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: Dave Yost , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> References: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.31 under 20.2 XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert A. Bruce writes: > Dave Yost said... > >First order of business, I think is that http://www.freebsd.org/ must have a > >prominent main heading: > > FreeBSD vs. linux and others > >which leads to some simple, forthright information suitable for nontechnical > >journalists and TV news people. It should also have a big, forbidding table > >with lots of X marks for stuff FreeBSD has that linux doesn't and as much > >technical backup material as possible. > > > What does FreeBSD have that Linux doesn't? I don't think that such > a table would be very "forbidding". > > Seriously, I am working on a chart to hand out at the FreeBSD booth > at LinuxWorld next week, and I am having a hard time coming up with > a list of things that FreeBSD does better than Linux. > > Most claims of FreeBSD superiority boil down to: > > 1. "FreeBSD is more reliable", with no objective evidence to back > up that claim. > > 2. "FreeBSD has better performance", with little evidence to back > up that claim either. FreeBSD seems to have better performance > on network intensive applications when the system is heavily > loaded (http://advisor.gartner.com/n_inbox/hotcontent/hc_2121999_3.html) > but I haven't seen any clear evidence that FreeBSD outperforms Linux > in other areas or under other conditions. > > There are other points that people bring up, such as better kernel > architecture, etc. But that is pretty meaningless to an typical > end-user. > You forgot the one that sold me. A few years ago, when looking into "unix" for my PC, I was about ready to go for Linux when I cam upon FreeBSD. Having seen that Linux comes from "many sources" or lots of contributors working independantly (a worthy thing, too), I found that FreeBSD was of the BSD lineage and was a "single source" (ignoring all of the nitpicking about this definition). Result: FreeBSD wins, no contest, period. This is MY choice. Others may not find it as compelling but I do. I do not wish to worry about whether my new kernel will run with existing stuff or where I will have to go to complete my upgrade. I also find that the proliferation of the "commercial" linuces to be indicative of the same problem... for me. I'm sure these products are fine but I have no interest in variations on a theme. > If I was trying to come up with the opposite list (areas where Linux > beats FreeBSD) the job would be much easier: > > 1. Linux runs on way more platforms (sparc, powerpc, mips,... heck it > even runs on a PalmPilot). I don't have a palm pilot. I buy hardware from the Goodwill Computer shop here in Austin and have _never_ been stumped at Getting FreeBSD running on anything I've tried. (I even cleaned rat poop out of an old 486 and got it to run text based training manuals at work!) > > 2. Linux has better support for realtime operations. > > 3. Linux supports more perephrials (USB, etc.) > I have a Win98 (blech) machine in the kitchen that spools spiffy print output to an old Panasonic on my FreeBSD server. All of the necessary filtering and formating is done by the server. It was a no brainer. It _was_ more difficult to figure out how to get Win98 to print at all. > 4. Linux has real multiprocessor threads > > 5. Linux has a lot more native commercial applications. > I run all that I need to with the ports and packages. I manage a web site for my church, write documentation for my job, and control a LAN here at home (Adding a 5th machine - an old Apple LC II). I even use some of the commercial Linux applications. They are just fine. I will buy the FreeBSD Applixware when available. > 6. etc... > > So if you can send me a list of areas where FreeBSD beats Linux, > I would greatly appreciate it. If you can back up any claims > of better performance/reliability with published reports or > repeatable benchmarks, that would be great. But I am happy to > take anecdotes too. The chart is pretty sparse right now, so > I am not picky. > > -bob The issue has _never_ been FreeBSD vs Linux. It is reliability. I _beleive_ FreeBSD has a greater probability of reliable performance based on the coordinated and comprehensive development and distribution of releases from FreeBSD.org. I have _not_ been disapointed. I do not think it a good idea to get caught up in slaming the other guy. As an ole' time sales guy, you don't do that. It can get real embarrasing to later find yourself peddling the former competition.;-) John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 19: 6:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D79151BD for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:06:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id EAA20160; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 04:04:25 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19990301040425.B19859@foobar.franken.de> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 04:04:25 +0100 From: Harold Gutch To: "Robert A. Bruce" , Dave Yost Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com>; from Robert A. Bruce on Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 04:58:42PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 04:58:42PM -0800, Robert A. Bruce wrote: > If I was trying to come up with the opposite list (areas where Linux > beats FreeBSD) the job would be much easier: > > 1. Linux runs on way more platforms (sparc, powerpc, mips,... heck it > even runs on a PalmPilot). > I followed an IRC conversation with a couple of people a few days ago on exactly this topic - one of the conclusions was that a UNIX(-clone) for the PalmPilot did not make much sense, as it's CPU for example did not have any memory protection - at least not a really useful one. I am no expert on this subject, and the above is only one of the things I just remember somehow, perhaps somebody with a more technical insight can say more on this topic :). All that I'm trying to say with this is that even if somebody wrote/ported/whatever something to run on the PalmPilot which *looks* similar to Linux or any other UNIX/UNIX-clone, it probably is _far_ away from "the real thing". Linux does run on more platforms that FreeBSD (currently ? :) ) does, but you can always use NetBSD on other architectures if you want - the only thing I can report on this from my own experience is that we wanted to install a free UNIX(-clone, whatever) on 2 SUN4s and were able to install NetBSD without too much of a problem (at least after setting up the netboot-stuff etc. which I hadn't ever done before) and the machine was up and running without the slightest problems until one of the harddisks failed, whileas Linux panicd already when booting over the net. > 5. Linux has a lot more native commercial applications. > Which run faster under FreeBSD's Linux-emulation :). In fact, I today heard of a guy, who doesn't have much UNIX-knowledge, but one thing he did notice after installing Linux over his FreeBSD-installation was that in his opinion the system became a lot less responsive than it had been before. This indeed can be called a major plus for FreeBSD, a friend and me even started joking saying we'd start a consulting company which would help people "speed up their Linux applications" [... by installing FreeBSD and then running the applications under the Linux-Emulation ;) ]. > So if you can send me a list of areas where FreeBSD beats Linux, > I would greatly appreciate it. If you can back up any claims > of better performance/reliability with published reports or > repeatable benchmarks, that would be great. But I am happy to > take anecdotes too. The chart is pretty sparse right now, so > I am not picky. > bye, Harold -- Sleep is an abstinence syndrome wich occurs due to lack of caffein. Wed Mar 4 04:53:33 CET 1998 #unix, ircnet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 21:20:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E6B152FC for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:19:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Dave@Yost.com) Received: from [205.219.69.138] (205-219-69-138.bayarea.net [205.219.69.138]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA22732; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:19:08 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: dayost@mail.bayarea.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> References: Your message of "Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:56:06 PST." Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:18:20 -0800 To: "Robert A. Bruce" From: Dave Yost Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@pike.cdrom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 4:58 PM -0800 1999-02-28, Robert A. Bruce wrote: > So if you can send me a list of areas where FreeBSD beats Linux, > I would greatly appreciate it. If you can back up any claims > of better performance/reliability with published reports or > repeatable benchmarks, that would be great. But I am happy to > take anecdotes too. Sorry. I've been going on extensive hearsay. You guys who use these heavily will have to come up with the comparison. > The chart is pretty sparse right now, so > I am not picky. Gee, is linux really the better one as well as the most publicized? Dave To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 21:44:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12E9715374 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:44:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA32312; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:43:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Dave Yost Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:18:20 PST." Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:43:59 -0800 Message-ID: <32308.920267039@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Sorry. I've been going on extensive hearsay. You guys who use > these heavily will have to come up with the comparison. And perhaps now you begin to realize the extent of the problem. Effective marketing isn't created as a result of people running around screaming "disaster! calamity!", it's created by people actually doing the work of creating comparisons and other promotional material. Considering your earlier burst of enthusiasm, I find your "someone else will have to come up with something tangible" attitude to be a little inexplicable. :-) That's just not how things get done around here. > Gee, is linux really the better one as well as the most publicized? The only problem I see here is that people don't agree on what "better" means, nor do they necessarily know how to quantify it when they see it in words that others can understand. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 22:17:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F0201530D for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:17:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA17075; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:16:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990228230524.03f56a70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:12:26 -0700 To: "Robert A. Bruce" , Dave Yost From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@pike.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:58 PM 2/28/99 -0800, Robert A. Bruce wrote: >Seriously, I am working on a chart to hand out at the FreeBSD booth >at LinuxWorld next week, and I am having a hard time coming up with >a list of things that FreeBSD does better than Linux. Easier installs, especially network installs -- and runs the first time on more platforms. The FreeBSD Ports collection is the most accessible and easiest to use library of free software packages in the business. Better track record with regard to security holes. Survey Bugtraq; far more Linux bugs than FreeBSD bugs appear. Unencumbered by the GPL. You can really USE the code! More and better courseware and documentation out there than for any other operating system, bar none. Why? Because it's Berkeley UNIX! Better drivers -- especially for Intel Etherexpress Pro and other best of breed cards. Yahoo and Hotmail use it in preference to Linux. Can run all of its own software PLUS 99% of all Linux software. Uses the networking stack upon which all others are based. And more.... --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 22:40:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2165D1520C for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:40:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@pike.cdrom.com) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by pike.cdrom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA28915; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:40:16 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903010640.WAA28915@pike.cdrom.com> To: Harold Gutch Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@pike.cdrom.com Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Mar 1999 04:04:25 +0100." <19990301040425.B19859@foobar.franken.de> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:40:12 -0800 From: "Robert A. Bruce" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Harold Gutch said... > >> 5. Linux has a lot more native commercial applications. >> >Which run faster under FreeBSD's Linux-emulation :). Which applications run faster on FreeBSD? How much faster? Where is this published or how is it replicated? -bob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 23: 1: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C30E151F9 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:59:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@pike.cdrom.com) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by pike.cdrom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA29024; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:00:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903010700.XAA29024@pike.cdrom.com> To: Brett Glass Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , Dave Yost , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@pike.cdrom.com Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:12:26 MST." <4.1.19990228230524.03f56a70@localhost> Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:00:28 -0800 From: "Robert A. Bruce" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass said... >At 04:58 PM 2/28/99 -0800, Robert A. Bruce wrote: > >>Seriously, I am working on a chart to hand out at the FreeBSD booth >>at LinuxWorld next week, and I am having a hard time coming up with >>a list of things that FreeBSD does better than Linux. > >Easier installs, especially network installs Okay. This is a good point. I have heard that until recently Linux didn't support upgrades at all, but required complete re-installs. >-- and runs the first time on more platforms. Is this really true? I have heard that Linux has more support for obscure hardware. >The FreeBSD Ports collection is the most accessible and easiest to use >library of free software packages in the business. Okay. >Better track record with regard to security holes. Survey Bugtraq; >far more Linux bugs than FreeBSD bugs appear. I didn't have this. Yes, this is good. >Unencumbered by the GPL. You can really USE the code! Okay. But this is a controversial issue. >More and better courseware and documentation out there than for >any other operating system, bar none. Why? Because it's Berkeley >UNIX! Yes, this is another very good point that I hadn't thought of. >Better drivers -- especially for Intel Etherexpress Pro and other >best of breed cards. Yes, but I think this is a fleeting advantage. Linux will catch up. >Yahoo and Hotmail use it in preference to Linux. Okay. I have a list of these, plus others, such as Xoom.com, USWest, etc. Hotmail is an especially good propaganda point, since it is owned by Microsoft. >Can run all of its own software PLUS 99% of all Linux software. Is 99% a real number, or should I just say "most"? >Uses the networking stack upon which all others are based. > >And more.... If you have more, I would appreciate if you can send them. This is exactly the sort of information that I need. Thanks. -bob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sun Feb 28 23:17:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2995A152E7 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:17:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id XAA73332; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:16:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 23:16:45 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: Dave Yost , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Message-ID: <19990228231645.A73172@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com>; from Robert A. Bruce on Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 04:58:42PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 04:58:42PM -0800, Robert A. Bruce wrote: > Dave Yost said... > >First order of business, I think is that http://www.freebsd.org/ must have a > >prominent main heading: > > FreeBSD vs. linux and others > >which leads to some simple, forthright information suitable for nontechnical > >journalists and TV news people. It should also have a big, forbidding table > >with lots of X marks for stuff FreeBSD has that linux doesn't and as much > >technical backup material as possible. > > > What does FreeBSD have that Linux doesn't? I don't think that such > a table would be very "forbidding". > > Seriously, I am working on a chart to hand out at the FreeBSD booth > at LinuxWorld next week, and I am having a hard time coming up with > a list of things that FreeBSD does better than Linux. An example of FreeBSD beating Linux (and microsoft for that matter) is right in your backyard. On Oct 24, 1998 wcarchive.cdrom.com pushed 724 Gigabyte in a single 24 hour period. See http://www.bafug.org/NewRecord.html FreeBSD has a superior VM and network subsystem. I'll try and find the post that Matt Dillon sent to hackers several weeks ago. In this post he analyzed the Linux VM system and explained why FreeBSD is better. FreeBSD has a unified development model. The entire source code tree, from the kernel to the utility, is under the control of the FreeBSD developers. Linux is a kernel with distributions wrapped around it. The result of this is that Linux, the OS, is balkanized with each group jumping up and down saying, "we are the best!". Today Red Hat is the leader. Last year it was what? Debian ? Slackware? Caldera? Next year it's what? S.u.S.E. ? http://www.linux.org/dist/english.html list no less that 17 distributions. The result of this is that there are slight incompatible in the code base making it "interesting" moving code back and forth between the distributions. Another feature of the Linux development model is that with each new kernel one gets to play "OK, now what is broke" This is becoming less common but still a new kernel should not be braking anything. The softupdates file system is a huge leap forward in file system technology. Softupdates, developed on FreeBSD by Marshall Kirk McKusick, one of the giants of the Unix world, guarantees that a file system will never get trashed again. Another befit of this technology is that the speed of file system access is vastly increased. These are just a few points. If I think of any others I'll send email. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 0:29:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D0E152E2 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:29:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id RAA15713; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:28:56 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DA4F25.951D91E4@newsguy.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:26:13 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , Dave Yost , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> <19990228231645.A73172@ontario.mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Josef Grosch wrote: > > FreeBSD has a superior VM and network subsystem. I'll try and find the post > that Matt Dillon sent to hackers several weeks ago. In this post he > analyzed the Linux VM system and explained why FreeBSD is better. Here it is. General Overview I've been looking at the linux kernel VM - mainly just to see what they've changed since I last looked at it. It's quite interesting... not bad at all though it is definitely a bit more memory-resource-intensive then FreeBSD's. However, it needs a *lot* of work when it comes to freeing up pages. I apologize in advance for any mistakes I've made! Basically, the linux kernel uses persistent hardware-level page tables in a mostly platform-independant fashion. The function of the persistent page tables is roughly equivalent to the function of FreeBSD's vm_object's. That is, the page tables are used to manage sharing and copy-on-write functions for VM objects. For example, when a process fork()'s, pages are duplicated literally by copying pte's. Writeable MAP_PRIVATE pages are write-protected and marked for copy-on-write. A global resident-page array is used to keep track of shared reference counts. Swapped-out pages are also represented by pte's and also marked for copy-on-write as appropriate. The swap block is stored in the PFN area of the pte (as far as I can tell). The swap system keeps a separate shared reference count to manage swap usage. The overhead is around 3 bytes per swap page (whether it is in use or not), and another pte-sized (int usually) field when storing the swap block in the pagetable. Linux cannot swap out its page tables, mainly due to the direct use of the page tables in handling VM object sharing. In general terms, linux's VM system is much cleaner then FreeBSD's... and I mean a *whole lot* cleaner, but at the cost of eating some extra memory. It isn't a whole lot of extra memory - maybe a meg or two for a typical system managing a lot of processes, and much less for typical 'small' systems. They are able to completely avoid the vm_object stacking (and related complexity) that we do, and they are able to completely avoid most of the pmap complexity in FreeBSD as well. Linux appears to implement a unified buffer cache. It's pretty straight forward except the object relationship is stored in the memory-map management structures in each process rather then in a vm_object type of structure. Linux appears to map all of physical memory into KVM. This avoids FreeBSD's (struct buf) complexity at the cost of not being able to deal with huge-memory configurations. I'm not 100% sure of this, but its my read of the code until someone corrects me. Problems Swap allocation is terrible. Linux uses a linear array which it scans looking for a free swap block. It does a relatively simple swap cluster cache, but eats the full linear scan if that fails which can be terribly nasty. The swap clustering algorithm is a piece of crap, too -- once swap becomes fragmented, the linux swapper falls on its face. It does read-ahead based on the swapblk which wouldn't be bad if it clustered writes by object or didn't have a fragmentation problem. As it stands, their read clustering is useless. Swap deallocation is fast since they are using a simple reference count array. File read-ahead is half-hazard at best. The paging queues ( determing the age of the page and whether to free or clean it) need to be written... the algorithms being used are terrible. * For the nominal page scan, it is using a one-hand clock algorithm. All I can say is: Oh my god! Are they nuts? That was abandoned a decade ago. The priority mechanism they've implemented is nearly useless. * To locate pages to swap out, it takes a pass through the task list. Ostensibly it locates the task with the largest RSS to then try to swap pages out from rather then select pages that are not in use. From my read of the code, it also botches this badly. Linux does not appear to do any page coloring whatsoever, but it would not be hard to add it in. Linux cannot swap-out its page tables or page directories. Thus, idle tasks can eat a significant amount of memory. This isn't a big deal for most systems ( small systems: no problem. Big systems: probably have lots of memory anyway ). But, mmap()'d files can create a significant burden if you have a lot of forked processes ( news, sendmail, web server, etc...). Not only does Linux have to scan the page tables for all the processes mapping the file, whether or not they are actively using the page being checked for, but Linux's swapout algorithm scans page tables and, effectively, makes redundant scans of shared objects. What FreeBSD can learn Well, the main thing is that the Linux VM system is very, very clean compared to the FreeBSD implementation. Cleaning up FreeBSD's VM system complexity is what I've been concentrating on and will continue to concentrate on. However, part of the reason that FreeBSD's VM system is more complex is because it does not use the page tables to store reference information. Instead, it uses the vm_object and pmap modules. I actually like this feature of FreeBSD. A lot. The biggest thing we need to do to clean up our VM system is, basically, to completely rewrite the struct buf filesystem buffering mechanism to make it much, much less complex - basically it should only be used as placeholders for read and write ops and not used to cache block number mappings between the files and the VM system, nor should it be used to map pages into KVM. Separating out these three mechanisms into three different subsystems would simplify the code enormously, I think. For example, we could implement a simple vm_object KVM mapping mechanism using FreeBSD's existing vm_object stacking model to map portions of a vm_object (aka filesystem partition) into KVM. Linux demarks interrupts from supervisor code much better then we do. If we move some of the more sophisticated operational capabilities out of our interrupt subsystem, we could get rid of most of the spl*() junk we currently have to do. This is a real sore spot in current FreeBSD code. Interrupts are just too complex. I'd also get rid of FreeBSD's intermediate 'software interrupt' layer, which is able to do even more complex things then hard interrupt code. The latency considerations just don't make any sense verses running pending software interrupts synchronously in tsleep(), prior to actually sleeping. We need to do this anyway ( or move softints to kernel threads ) to be able to take advantage of SMP mechanisms. The *only* thing our interrupts should be allowed to do is finish I/O on a page or use zalloc(). -Matt Matthew Dillon -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "To make it absolutely clear: you stand on the wrong end of my blasters, so you better get lost before I start target practice!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 0:29:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC6F152CD for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 00:29:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id RAA15700; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:28:49 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DA4E86.E7CF8A2A@newsguy.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:23:34 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: Brett Glass , Dave Yost , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <199903010700.XAA29024@pike.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Robert A. Bruce" wrote: > > >Unencumbered by the GPL. You can really USE the code! > > Okay. But this is a controversial issue. Controversial to whom? It is just a matter of your intended audience, of how you sell this. "In contrast to the GPL license used by Linux, FreeBSD gives preference to the BSD license, meaning that business enterprises can use the source code as it sees fit with no strings attached, besides the copyright notice." Of course, there is GPL code on the FreeBSD distribution, but marketing is marketing. Don't target the OSS crowd, as they already use an open source operating system. Target people who are new to this, attracted by the Linux histeria. Business. SOHO. People who want start an Internet enterprise. Explain to them how they can use the BSD license to their advantage, contrasting this to GPL. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "To make it absolutely clear: you stand on the wrong end of my blasters, so you better get lost before I start target practice!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 1:15:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 334D015228 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 01:15:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA32824; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 01:15:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: Dave Yost , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 28 Feb 1999 16:58:42 PST." <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 01:15:11 -0800 Message-ID: <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What does FreeBSD have that Linux doesn't? I don't think that such > a table would be very "forbidding". It's not so much that it's forbidding so much as highly angle-of-view dependent. Once you set out to work on enunciating what you find so attractive about FreeBSD from your particular perspective, you quickly see how much of it really is just a matter of personal preference and a "feel" to the OS that's also very difficult to describe in textual form to someone else. It's a lot like one's preference for automobiles of a certain manufacture. If you'd driven 4 different Mazdas and 4 different Toyotas in your lifetime and the various Mazdas just always impressed you in some set of ways as being "better" than the Toyotas, then one would probably understand your having some preference for Mazdas as a general rule - you subjected 8 different models to your selection criteria and the Mazdas "won." Get into a Toyota mailing list and say "The Mazda is a better car", however, and you'll very quickly find out that a lot of your selection criteria are not shared by the members of that list, or perhaps they share your selection criteria but draw completely different conclusions from it; either way it's a very subjective thing. So it is with FreeBSD and Linux. I've installed and looked at both (one would hope :) and I have a penchant for certain organizational methodologies in an OS which FreeBSD simply comes closer to providing. I can install the base bits and get a /usr/src tree containing the source for every piece of the OS I might ever want to build (or even just INSPECT), available right there in the same form that was used to build the binaries I'm running in case I want to reproduce the same results. I don't need to learn multiple arcane autoconf/configure/whatever build systems to build each separate component, it all just fits together under the Berkeley make system. Even stuff which is wildly outside "the BSD way" gets forced to toe the line through the ports collection, a mechanism which at least makes sure that things don't attempt to pollute things directly in my "system" directories like /bin, /usr/bin, etc. If I then wish to syncronize this source (or ports) tree with the official project version, there are several commands provided (CTM, anoncvs, CVSup) which will also allow me to track the changes to this whole pile of bits on an ongoing basis, public mailing lists also giving me the option of actually seeing the change log messages as things in my tree get modified. These may seem like a small things, but when you're trying to figure out just what parts of a system are supposed to be there and which were just added by the trojan horse weenies who broke in at 2am, the more organized your binaries are the better. If you've got nice, organized build systems on tap, you can also rebuild and replace all those binaries in a systematic fashion and if the problem involves a security problem which has since been fixed by FreeBSD.org, you can run your usual source-syncronization command to catch up with these latest changes. No hand-applied patches to figure out, no special build procedures to follow, just cvsup, build the world and call me in the morning. I guess if I had to encapsulate this in a sound bite, I'd say that FreeBSD was simple more developer friendly. We have a well-organized source tree, a publically exported CVS repository, lots of fancy web tools for querying or indexing our sources (http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi and http://lxr.linux.no/freebsd/source to cite two examples), we simply have the basic MIND SET that developers should have all the best tools available for developing and managing the OS, that just happening to suit the needs of a certain kind of user rather well also. I think a lot of Linux folks would *like* that sort of approach but I don't see any of the big distributions putting as much work into making the OS developer friendly as they are into adding desktop gee-gaws and such for the traditional Windows user. Then we get into "stability", another one of those words which is very much viewpoint dependent. I'll go out on a limb here and say that any OS which makes it easy for developers to fix problems quickly and for users to track those fixes in an organized fashion (not just "here are 20 patches on my FTP site! Come and get 'em!") is going to be the "more stable" OS in the long run. I think that also applies to any OS which is run by inherently conservative people who, in many cases, are old and wizened and a little closer in temperment to Yoda than Luke Skywalker. Luke might be flashier and get all the girls, but he makes more mistakes. :-) And no, I don't want "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker!" on this comparison - it was merely another analogy. :-) Like most things, I think we're not going to "win" so much here by attempting to score points off Linux as we are by enumerating our strengths. We run Yahoo, Hotmail, Link exchange, etc. and are very popular among ISPs. We have a long history. We pull our socks up. We're bad-ass. And so on... - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 1:19:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BB101535A for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 01:19:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Dave@Yost.com) Received: from [205.219.69.138] (205-219-69-138.bayarea.net [205.219.69.138]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA12089; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 01:18:54 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: dayost@mail.bayarea.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32308.920267039@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Your message of "Sun, 28 Feb 1999 21:18:20 PST." Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 01:18:22 -0800 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Dave Yost Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 9:43 PM -0800 1999-02-28, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Sorry. I've been going on extensive hearsay. You guys who use >> these heavily will have to come up with the comparison. > > And perhaps now you begin to realize the extent of the problem. > > Effective marketing isn't created as a result of people running around > screaming "disaster! calamity!", it's created by people actually doing > the work of creating comparisons and other promotional material. > Considering your earlier burst of enthusiasm, I find your "someone > else will have to come up with something tangible" attitude to be a > little inexplicable. :-) I knew someone would say all of this. I have my reasons for remaining on the sidelines. And the discussion is humming along very nicely now with useful information coming forth. I am grateful to all of the contributors to FreeBSD et al. Dave To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 1:45:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pez.hyperreal.org (pez.hyperreal.org [207.181.224.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ED67515312 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 01:44:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@hyperreal.org) Received: (qmail 30905 invoked by uid 4000); 1 Mar 1999 09:44:32 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs@127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 1 Mar 1999 09:44:32 -0000 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 01:44:32 -0800 (PST) From: Brian Behlendorf To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > And no, I don't want "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker!" on > this comparison - it was merely another analogy. :-) Sounds like a terrific bumper sticker. :) Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 2:15:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172C1152FF for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:15:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id VAA15708; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:15:07 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990301211503.54377@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:15:03 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , Dave Yost , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 01:15:11AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 01:15:11AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I think that also applies to any OS which is run by inherently > conservative people who, in many cases, are old and wizened and a > little closer in temperment to Yoda than Luke Skywalker. Luke might > be flashier and get all the girls, but he makes more mistakes. :-) Who's Yoda and Luke Skywalker? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 2:19:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00B6D152ED for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 02:19:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id LAA20769; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:17:51 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19990301111751.A20739@foobar.franken.de> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:17:51 +0100 From: Harold Gutch To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <19990301040425.B19859@foobar.franken.de> <199903010640.WAA28915@pike.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199903010640.WAA28915@pike.cdrom.com>; from Robert A. Bruce on Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 10:40:12PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 10:40:12PM -0800, Robert A. Bruce wrote: > >> 5. Linux has a lot more native commercial applications. > >> > >Which run faster under FreeBSD's Linux-emulation :). > > Which applications run faster on FreeBSD? How much faster? > Where is this published or how is it replicated? > *shrug* unfortunately this is merely based on somewhat personal experiance and reports of people I know, partially *BSD-users, partially Linux-users. I heard comments like "FreeBSD's scheduler is better, that's the reason for this", but I unfortunately have no publications or so to base my claims on. bye, Harold -- Sleep is an abstinence syndrome wich occurs due to lack of caffein. Wed Mar 4 04:53:33 CET 1998 #unix, ircnet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 3:45: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 017AD15331 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 03:44:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 7806 invoked by alias); 1 Mar 1999 11:44:39 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 7784 invoked by uid 0); 1 Mar 1999 11:44:39 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 1 Mar 1999 11:44:39 -0000 Message-ID: <36DA7DA6.9A7E6D99@uswest.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 03:44:39 -0800 From: D Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: Dave Yost , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Feb 29, 1999 @ around 00:59 GMT, "Robert A. Bruce" wrote: > What does FreeBSD have that Linux doesn't? I don't think that such > a table would be very "forbidding". Emulation of the other OS for starters. Legacy ancestry for another. How's about the fact that the DALnet IRC network does not permit Linux based servers due to Linux being unable to handle the high client loads (it's a threading problem)? What OS did they switch their Linux machines over too? Why, FreeBSD, of course. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 3:53:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rt2.synx.com (tech.boostworks.com [194.167.81.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5291915361 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 03:53:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@synx.com) Received: from synx.com (rn.synx.com [192.1.1.241]) by rt2.synx.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA16861; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:59:36 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199903011159.MAA16861@rt2.synx.com> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:51:32 +0100 (CET) From: Remy Nonnenmacher Reply-To: remy@synx.com Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) To: sue@welearn.com.au Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, rab@pike.cdrom.com, Dave@Yost.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990301211503.54377@welearn.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 1 Mar, Sue Blake wrote: > On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 01:15:11AM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> I think that also applies to any OS which is run by inherently >> conservative people who, in many cases, are old and wizened and a >> little closer in temperment to Yoda than Luke Skywalker. Luke might >> be flashier and get all the girls, but he makes more mistakes. :-) > > Who's Yoda and Luke Skywalker? > > You know : "to be or not to be...." Hum....no, i remember : Yoda is the guy who said "this is old, therefore good" and Luke is the guy who said : "This is newer, therefore better". (Hence the discussion about gcc/egcs....) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 7:10:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7816A153D3 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:10:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA19617; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:09:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990301080314.03f30a70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:09:37 -0700 To: "Robert A. Bruce" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , Dave Yost , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@pike.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199903010700.XAA29024@pike.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:00 PM 2/28/99 -0800, Robert A. Bruce wrote: >>Easier installs, especially network installs > >Okay. This is a good point. I have heard that until recently >Linux didn't support upgrades at all, but required complete re-installs. There's no procedure like Jordan's semi-automatic upgrader. >>-- and runs the first time on more platforms. > >Is this really true? I have heard that Linux has more support for >obscure hardware. Yes, but not out of the box! You have to know what you have and bring it in. FreeBSD excels at getting the system running from the (single) original boot floppy. >>Unencumbered by the GPL. You can really USE the code! > >Okay. But this is a controversial issue. In this case, controversy is good! Many people are uneasy with Stallmanism and/or don't realize that the GPL was motivated by animus toward commercial software. Saying, "Here -- you can use this for free, no strings attached" is ALWAYS good, especially in the Age of the Internet. >>Better drivers -- especially for Intel Etherexpress Pro and other >>best of breed cards. > >Yes, but I think this is a fleeting advantage. Linux will catch up. I think FreeBSD will probably stay ahead. Berkeley drivers are easier to write, and the model for them is simpler and more powerful. >>Can run all of its own software PLUS 99% of all Linux software. > >Is 99% a real number, or should I just say "most"? 99% is a conservative guess. About the only thing that's not emulated is kernel threads, and less than one in 100 Linux programs out there use it. >If you have more, I would appreciate if you can send them. This is exactly >the sort of information that I need. Thanks. Why not post to "chat" asking for bullet points? The "advocacy" list is not well read. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 7:29: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC72D153BF for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:29:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA19747; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:28:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:21:04 -0700 To: Brian Behlendorf , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG More bumper sticker ideas: "Use the Source, Luke" "Powered by daemons" Or, in the totally tasteless category: "I have a bad feeling about this" (Shows the Linux penguin with a pitchfork stuck in his middle) --Brett At 01:44 AM 3/1/99 -0800, Brian Behlendorf wrote: >On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> And no, I don't want "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker!" on >> this comparison - it was merely another analogy. :-) > >Sounds like a terrific bumper sticker. :) > > Brian > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 7:57: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3A5150BD for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 07:57:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03772; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:56:34 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36DAB8B2.48F26C86@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 08:56:34 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Yost Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dave Yost wrote: > > Forgive me if this has been endlessly hashed and rehashed here. > I've just joined the mailing list. And run off at the keyboard without bothering to read the archives or lurk quietly for a while, apparently. > Some young lone wolf in Finland writes a barebones unix kernel > called linux, and it captures the imagination of the world. Later, > the press latches on to linux as THE alternative to Windows and NT > and creates a firestorm. Every time they do a report on linux, > they neglect even to mention FreeBSD. Please take the time to format your diatribes so they can be read before zapping them into our faces. Thank you. > This is a disaster, and it must be attacked with full force as > soon as possible or FreeBSD will become hopelessly marginalized. No, quite the opposite: the popularity of Linux in the press has helped us and will continue to help us. Please see this month's Daemons Advocate column at http://www.daemonnews.org/ for a contrasting point of view. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 8:52:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from wcug.wwu.edu (sloth.wcug.wwu.edu [140.160.164.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF5C814BDB for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:52:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tcole@wcug.wwu.edu) Received: (qmail 8475 invoked by uid 1085); 1 Mar 1999 16:51:55 -0000 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:51:55 -0800 From: Travis Cole To: Brett Glass Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , Dave Yost , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Message-ID: <19990301085155.C8259@wcug.wwu.edu> References: <199903010700.XAA29024@pike.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990301080314.03f30a70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990301080314.03f30a70@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 08:09:37AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 08:09:37AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:00 PM 2/28/99 -0800, Robert A. Bruce wrote: > > >>Easier installs, especially network installs > > > >Okay. This is a good point. I have heard that until recently > >Linux didn't support upgrades at all, but required complete re-installs. > > There's no procedure like Jordan's semi-automatic upgrader. Actualy Debian supports very easy upgrades with dselect, and once apt is rolled into a release (in 7 hours 12 min) upgrading debian from one release to another will pretty much be a matter of typing: # apt-get update # apt-get dist-upgrade That will download, or copy off a CD or HD partition all the new packages needed and install them in the correct order to satisfy any dependancy problems, and prompts you on how to deal with new config files and such. It has worked quite well in my experience. Although I do prefer # make buildworld # make installworld -- --Travis I think that also applies to any OS which is run by inherently conservative people who, in many cases, are old and wizened and a little closer in temperment to Yoda than Luke Skywalker. Luke might be flashier and get all the girls, but he makes more mistakes. :-) (Jordan K. Hubbard on FreeBSD vs Linux) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 8:56:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D010B15427 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 08:56:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-026.thuntek.net [207.66.52.26]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id JAA15870; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:55:31 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DAD10C.58F4A985@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 09:40:28 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert A. Bruce wrote: > > Dave Yost said... > >First order of business, I think is that http://www.freebsd.org/ must have a > >prominent main heading: > > FreeBSD vs. linux and others > >which leads to some simple, forthright information suitable for nontechnical > >journalists and TV news people. It should also have a big, forbidding table > >with lots of X marks for stuff FreeBSD has that linux doesn't and as much > >technical backup material as possible. > > What does FreeBSD have that Linux doesn't? I don't think that such > a table would be very "forbidding". > > Seriously, I am working on a chart to hand out at the FreeBSD booth > at LinuxWorld next week, and I am having a hard time coming up with > a list of things that FreeBSD does better than Linux. > I would much rather we take the high road and just talk about FreeBSD superiority. Ignore Linux and NT completely, though (of course) counter each of their strong points with your strong points. For example, "BSD does not allow kernel threads, which can let a user process lock up the whole OS and crash the machine." "FreeBSD allows full use of open source software, removing the dangers of the Not Invented Here syndrome so prevalent in the commercial world." You'd be damaging our cause if you crawl into THEIR den and argue with them. > Most claims of FreeBSD superiority boil down to: > > 1. "FreeBSD is more reliable", with no objective evidence to back > up that claim. > FreeBSD disk filesystems are mounted with synchronous writes, making data safe in the event of a hardware crash, and even when other OSen are configured the same way, FreeBSD metadata (data about the filesystem itself) is still protected better. David Greenman will be glad to support you in establishing this. When a FreeBSD system is under heavy networking load, it's performance degrades gracefully as more resources are dedicated to the traffic, rather than crashing. FreeBSD does not permit any user process direct access to the kernel, preventing the crash of the OS even if a user process goes astray. > 2. "FreeBSD has better performance", with little evidence to back > up that claim either. FreeBSD seems to have better performance > on network intensive applications when the system is heavily > loaded (http://advisor.gartner.com/n_inbox/hotcontent/hc_2121999_3.html) > but I haven't seen any clear evidence that FreeBSD outperforms Linux > in other areas or under other conditions. > You raise a good point. I have heard that FreeBSD runs native Linux X apps like Mesa faster than Linux. We should establish this by benchmark. > There are other points that people bring up, such as better kernel > architecture, etc. But that is pretty meaningless to an typical > end-user. > > If I was trying to come up with the opposite list (areas where Linux > beats FreeBSD) the job would be much easier: > > 1. Linux runs on way more platforms (sparc, powerpc, mips,... heck it > even runs on a PalmPilot). FreeBSD is optimized for the x86 architecture of commodity PC's. Our best developers do not splinter their time in supporting many architectures, some of which are unsuited to run multitasking OSen. If you want alternatives for Macs, visit our friends at NetBSD. > > 2. Linux has better support for realtime operations. > Meaningless. When you impose deterministic operation on a UNIX-like OS, it no longer is a UNIX-like OS. PicoBSd can be deterministic, too. > 3. Linux supports more perephrials (USB, etc.) > There aren't many USB peripherals out. All I've seen are hubs built into monitors. We still have time on this. > 4. Linux has real multiprocessor threads See above. Threads are dangerous on anything other than a dedicated or toy machine. No multiuser OS should allow kernel threads. > > 5. Linux has a lot more native commercial applications. > If FreeBSD runs them, and runs them faster, who cares? We do need to document these, though. > 6. etc... FreeBSD does not cater to the hordes of kiddie thrashers that are so prevalent in other OSen worlds. Our mailing lists don't flame nearly as much. Another poster has already made the point that FBSD has only two development tracks, and the Ports are always synchronized and tested with the release version. Finally, what I consider the most important point, FreeBSD is much better documented technically. There are hundreds of books published about BSD UNIX and its tools from reputable publishers like Prentice-Hall, Addison-Wesley and O'Reilly and Associates. > > So if you can send me a list of areas where FreeBSD beats Linux, > I would greatly appreciate it. If you can back up any claims > of better performance/reliability with published reports or > repeatable benchmarks, that would be great. But I am happy to > take anecdotes too. The chart is pretty sparse right now, so > I am not picky. > Once again, please DON'T make a comaprison chart. Make a 'superiority' chart, but don't mention Linux by name. > -bob > -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 9:20:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.93.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AB9155D8 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 09:20:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA13767; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:20:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:20:17 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: Don Wilde Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <36DAD10C.58F4A985@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG So one thing the OpenBSD people have done is integrate ARLA; my bet is that if we had integrated AFS support, that would be a great thing to advertise, especially to the college-crowd, given that AFS is used fairly widely at large academic institutions (for the obvious reason). My understanding is also that Arla runs significantly better under BSD than under Linux: at least, every time I talk to Linux people around here, they say "I tried that but it was really unstable" or the like. I installed Arla/XFS from their FTP site (not the port, that is out of date?) and it worked out of the box. I've run into four bugs since then, and they were all fixed within a day. Once this latest one is fixed, I would describe Arla as being extremely stable (for single-realm use). Comments such as "Designed for large-scale distributed systems" (Kerberos, AFS in base package) are sure to sell. Now if only we had a more recent version of Kerberos in the base install (a newer version of KTH, for example). Robert N Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 10:35:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EA5D153ED for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 10:35:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08225; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:03:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd008169; Mon Mar 1 12:03:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA13695; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:34:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903011834.LAA13695@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) To: rab@pike.cdrom.com (Robert A. Bruce) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 18:34:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: Dave@Yost.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@pike.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> from "Robert A. Bruce" at Feb 28, 99 04:58:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > What does FreeBSD have that Linux doesn't? I don't think that such > a table would be very "forbidding". > > Seriously, I am working on a chart to hand out at the FreeBSD booth > at LinuxWorld next week, and I am having a hard time coming up with > a list of things that FreeBSD does better than Linux. > > Most claims of FreeBSD superiority boil down to: [ ... listening to the wrong claims ... ] > If I was trying to come up with the opposite list (areas where Linux > beats FreeBSD) the job would be much easier: > > 1. Linux runs on way more platforms (sparc, powerpc, mips,... heck it > even runs on a PalmPilot). > > 2. Linux has better support for realtime operations. No, it doesn't. No more than FreeBSD does with Peter's modules loaded. Neither one of them support deadlining, deterministic interrupt processing times, rate monotonic scheduling, etc., etc.. The lack of a commitment to had RT support is one of my biggest misgivings about FreeBSD, but Linux is certainly no better. > 3. Linux supports more perephrials (USB, etc.) Depends on how you count. If you count only hadware currently in production... > 4. Linux has real multiprocessor threads No. Linux has kernel threads, and kernel threads have a certain scalability to SMP. But the cost for this is too high, and it limits SMP scalability severely (most literature suggests 4 CPU's as the point of diminishing returns for this architecture). FreeBSD is no better (since it also has Linux kernel threads, as an LKM), but the Linux kernel threads, surprisingly, perform better in a FreeBSD kernel than they do in a Linux kernel. > 5. Linux has a lot more native commercial applications. Linux applications run on FreeBSD. So do FreeBSD applications. But FreeBSD applications don't run on Linux. > 6. etc... etc. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 11:10:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 405F715399 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:10:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id LAA11705; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:09:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id LAA05661; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:08:46 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id MAA16379; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:08:38 -0700 Message-ID: <36DAE5C3.C1B6182B@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 12:08:51 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Wilde Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <199903010058.QAA24952@pike.cdrom.com> <36DAD10C.58F4A985@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > > Robert A. Bruce wrote: > > > > If I was trying to come up with the opposite list (areas where Linux > > beats FreeBSD) the job would be much easier: > > > > 1. Linux runs on way more platforms (sparc, powerpc, mips,... heck it > > even runs on a PalmPilot). > > FreeBSD is optimized for the x86 architecture of commodity PC's. Our > best developers do not splinter their time in supporting many > architectures, some of which are unsuited to run multitasking OSen. If > you want alternatives for Macs, visit our friends at NetBSD. In many ways, the different BSD projects are more alike than the different Linux "distributions." This point can be emphasized without downplaying the role of FreeBSD, or any other BSD. > > 2. Linux has better support for realtime operations. > > > Meaningless. When you impose deterministic operation on a UNIX-like OS, > it no longer is a UNIX-like OS. PicoBSd can be deterministic, too. And Linux really doesn't have any support for realtime operations. RT-Linux, which does, consists of a realtime kernel with Linux running as a task; normal Linux programs have NO access to the realtime aspects and realtime programs have limited access to the Linux environment. RTMX, based on OpenBSD, is a similar implementation of realtime support in a UNIX-like environment. > > 3. Linux supports more perephrials (USB, etc.) > > > There aren't many USB peripherals out. All I've seen are hubs built into > monitors. We still have time on this. > > > 4. Linux has real multiprocessor threads > > See above. Threads are dangerous on anything other than a dedicated or > toy machine. No multiuser OS should allow kernel threads. In some applications, the user-level threads support on FreeBSD may be faster, as you don't have change kernel context to change thread context. There are pros and cons to both, and both are viable approaches to multi-threaded applications. Neither make a bit of difference for the vast majority of software available for FreeBSD and Linux, which are not implicitly threaded. > > 5. Linux has a lot more native commercial applications. > > > If FreeBSD runs them, and runs them faster, who cares? We do need to > document these, though. Never mind faster, just runs them acceptably fast. And yes, we do need to document these. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 11:28:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538161536F for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:28:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA19951; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:27:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd019909; Mon Mar 1 12:27:47 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA15288; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:27:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903011927.MAA15288@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) To: dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:27:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com, brett@lariat.org, Dave@Yost.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36DA4E86.E7CF8A2A@newsguy.com> from "Daniel C. Sobral" at Mar 1, 99 05:23:34 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > >Unencumbered by the GPL. You can really USE the code! > > > > Okay. But this is a controversial issue. > > Controversial to whom? It is just a matter of your intended > audience, of how you sell this. "In contrast to the GPL license used > by Linux, FreeBSD gives preference to the BSD license, meaning that > business enterprises can use the source code as it sees fit with no > strings attached, besides the copyright notice." To make this argument, you need to make the semantic distinction between "use" and "utilize". You are free to utilize Linux, but not use Linux source code to prepare proprietary derivative works. > Target people who are new to this, attracted by > the Linux histeria. Business. SOHO. People who want start an > Internet enterprise. Explain to them how they can use the BSD > license to their advantage, contrasting this to GPL. It may not be politically correct, but after seeing the "persiankitty" link on the FreeBSD user's page, thinking that the page had been hacked by a spammer, being corrected by Jordan, and then hearing the story behind it, it's a good marketing tool. Here's a second-hand summary from a second-hand summary of a Scout Report (a searchable archive is located at http://wwwscout.cs.wisc.edu/scout/report/ ): A woman, new to the internet, decided to see how many hits she could generate for her site. She was going for a record. Her methodology wasn't to put up a sex site (most of the previous record holders were sex sites). Instead, she put up an index of sex sites. Within 36 hours, her ISP had shut her down, because her site was saturating his T1. So she moved to another ISP, one with multiple T1's, and put the site back up. Within 24 hours, that ISP shut her down. Now her server is colocated, with multiple high speed connections. www.persiankitty.com is a FreeBSD machine. The woman makes well in excess of US$1 million per year: http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/content/inwk/0406/inwk0027.html Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 11:40:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smarter.than.nu (lal-99-91.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.99.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7846315437 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:40:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smarter.than.nu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA03107 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:39:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:39:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian W. Buchanan" X-Sender: brian@smarter.than.nu To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD and Linux on portables Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG While we're on this FreeBSD vs. Linux thread, how does FreeBSD's support for portable computers compare to that of Linux? My Libretto is running PAO for 2.2.8, and it runs beautifully. It was quite possibly the most painless FreeBSD installation I ever performed (excepting 'make installworld', of course), as it detected my PCMCIA network card and floppy drive right off the bat and everything installed from the local FreeBSD mirror without a hitch. A reboot, an automatic config file patching and kernel build, and another reboot later, I had a fully functional system. Luigi's pcm driver supports the integrated sound controller fairly well, so I can even listen to my MP3 collection on the go now. :) I don't know anyone who runs Linux on a laptop, so I don't have even the slightest idea how it measures up. In any case, it would be a good idea to use FreeBSD and FreeBSD-PAO's usability on portable machines as a point in our favor. Just being able to carry FreeBSD around is also good for advocacy on its own. I get lots of curious and interested looks when I pop open the Libretto and people notice that the screen looks nothing like Win98. Them: "Wow, your computer is so small! What operating system is that running?" Me: (points to stickers) "That's FreeBSD. The GUI you see is Window Maker running under X11." Them: (boggle for a second) "FreeBSD? Is that like Linux?" At this point, I either sigh and shake my head sadly, or, if they show some faint glimmer of the ability to comprehend what I'd say, attempt to explain the difference. -- Brian Buchanan brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org daemon(n): 1. an attendant power or spirit : GENIUS 2. the cute little mascot of the FreeBSD operating system To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 11:44:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D968150BD for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:44:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27847; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:44:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd027711; Mon Mar 1 12:44:18 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA15900; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:44:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903011944.MAA15900@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 19:44:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com, Dave@Yost.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990301080314.03f30a70@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 1, 99 08:09:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >>Easier installs, especially network installs > > > >Okay. This is a good point. I have heard that until recently > >Linux didn't support upgrades at all, but required complete re-installs. > > There's no procedure like Jordan's semi-automatic upgrader. I hear you can switch it to full auto, and that it can do three machine bursts. 8-) 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 11:50:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gwdu60.gwdg.de (gwdu60.gwdg.de [134.76.10.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A83E153FD for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 11:50:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de) Received: from localhost (kheuer@localhost) by gwdu60.gwdg.de (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA01885; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:49:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:49:01 +0100 (CET) From: Konrad Heuer To: Wes Peters Cc: Don Wilde , "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <36DAE5C3.C1B6182B@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Shame on me - I didn't read this thread of discussion completely. I hope, I don't state anything which has already been discussed. I'm convinced the FreeBSD is superior to Linux if we discuss technical questions. But the world isn't really interested in. The success of the Microsoft systems does illustrate it. The main of advantage of Linux is its ongoing success in the commercial scene because people deciding for Linux feel calmed by the existence of RedHat or Caldera. For them Linux is now more reliable, it's nearly like a commercial operating system. We don't want that for FreeBSD. But in the long term one or two or three Linux distributions will even go more commercial and will win the race. FreeBSD will stay a free operating system (I hope so) and will get only a small part of the market. That's what I expect. Nevertheless, let's try to make FreeBSD more popular day by day! :-) Regards // // Konrad Heuer ____ ___ _____= __=20 // Gesellschaft f=FCr wissenschaftliche / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __= / _ \ // Datenverarbeitung mbH G=D6ttingen / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/= // / // Am Fa=DFberg, D-37077 G=D6ttingen /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___= /____/=20 // Deutschland (Germany) ----- The Power to Serve ----= - // http://www.freebsd.org // kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de // To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 12:13:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D1714FE3 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:13:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-026.thuntek.net [207.66.52.26]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id NAA26245; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:13:14 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DB02C3.4E77AF6B@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:12:35 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Konrad Heuer Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Konrad Heuer wrote: > > Shame on me - I didn't read this thread of discussion completely. I hope, > I don't state anything which has already been discussed. > > I'm convinced the FreeBSD is superior to Linux if we discuss > technical questions. But the world isn't really interested in. The success > of the Microsoft systems does illustrate it. > Nevertheless, if we discuss technical issues in userland English (or German... ;-) , we can get the point across. What we need to do most of all is to attract more commercial / non-commercial developers to the BSD-licensed Open Source model. Sites like Forrest Cavalier's http://www.mibsoftware.com/reuse are a real jump forward in this direction. I wrote an article for InfoWorld on this, but I haven't heard back from them yet. > The main of advantage of Linux is its ongoing success in the commercial > scene because people deciding for Linux feel calmed by the existence of > RedHat or Caldera. For them Linux is now more reliable, it's nearly like a > commercial operating system. > > We don't want that for FreeBSD. But in the long term one or two or three > Linux distributions will even go more commercial and will win the race. > FreeBSD will stay a free operating system (I hope so) and will get only a > small part of the market. That's what I expect. > Jordan hopes to prove you wrong... without going explicitly 'commercial'... > Nevertheless, let's try to make FreeBSD more popular day by day! :-) > hear, hear! :-D > Regards > > // > // Konrad Heuer -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 13: 4:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C07F15458 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:03:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id WAA22352; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:01:38 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19990301220138.A22241@foobar.franken.de> Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 22:01:38 +0100 From: Harold Gutch To: Brett Glass , Brian Behlendorf , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 08:21:04AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 08:21:04AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > More bumper sticker ideas: > > "Use the Source, Luke" > "Use the Source, Yoda" ? :) > Or, in the totally tasteless category: > > "I have a bad feeling about this" (Shows the Linux penguin > with a pitchfork stuck in his middle) > Sounds like http://sol-r.franken.de/~logix/killer.gif bye, Harold -- Sleep is an abstinence syndrome wich occurs due to lack of caffein. Wed Mar 4 04:53:33 CET 1998 #unix, ircnet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 13: 5:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6638214ED1 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:05:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id NAA13227; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:04:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id NAA09639; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:04:01 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id OAA00778; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:03:57 -0700 Message-ID: <36DB00CA.7A08FCE8@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:04:10 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Don Wilde Cc: Konrad Heuer , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <36DB02C3.4E77AF6B@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Don Wilde wrote: > > Konrad Heuer wrote: > > > > We don't want that for FreeBSD. But in the long term one or two or three > > Linux distributions will even go more commercial and will win the race. > > FreeBSD will stay a free operating system (I hope so) and will get only a > > small part of the market. That's what I expect. > > > Jordan hopes to prove you wrong... without going explicitly > 'commercial'... Yes, and most FreeBSD users agree with him. We're willing to make FreeBSD more palatable to commercial developers only if we don't have to change the nature of FreeBSD to do it. Silly suggestions like changing the name of the project, or getting rid of the daemon mascot, just aren't going to help. ;^) Non-silly suggestions like a better installation system or a SECURE web- based system administration tool are welcomed, but real work along these lines is even more welcomed. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 13:10:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA6E7153B2 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:10:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 18694 invoked from network); 1 Mar 1999 21:10:17 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 1 Mar 1999 21:10:17 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA24626; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:10:07 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903012110.QAA24626@y.dyson.net> Subject: VM notes In-Reply-To: <36DA4F25.951D91E4@newsguy.com> from "Daniel C. Sobral" at "Mar 1, 99 05:26:13 pm" To: dcs@newsguy.com (Daniel C. Sobral) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:10:07 -0500 (EST) Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, rab@pike.cdrom.com, Dave@Yost.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Daniel C. Sobral said: > Josef Grosch wrote: > > > > FreeBSD has a superior VM and network subsystem. I'll try and find the post > > that Matt Dillon sent to hackers several weeks ago. In this post he > > analyzed the Linux VM system and explained why FreeBSD is better. > > Here it is. > .... > > -Matt > > Matthew Dillon > I do like Matt's review. IMO, the FreeBSD VM code started with a very soundly designed (but in-need-of-productizing) VM concept from the MACH project. What DG and I (plus others) did was to clean-up alot of the chaffe, rework the parts that were just broken, and improve some of the algorithms (e.g. paging, collapsing, etc.) In the case of the L-word, it would have been best to stand-back, and review what is needed in a VM system, and redesign from scratch. The really bad things about the FreeBSD VM code have to do with issues such as the pmap and VM layering being in slightly the wrong place. In a sense, it seems that Linux VM takes a totally opposed approach from the MACH ancestory. Doing it all over again, I would put MORE machine dependent bits into pmap, and move the layering upwards. Also, I would just "punt" and produce three flavors of pmap abstractions ((2,3,4 level) PTE, TLB, and inverse PTE.) So, my VM code would look like this: Upper level VM -- Page datastructure abstraction -- hardware abstraction. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Today's pmap. In some machines, the page datastructure abstraction -- hardware abstraction, might be fairly simple, because microcode does alot of the work. The key to this is to design the upper level VM to support optimizations based upon the three major schemes. Some of the optimizations would be ifdefed or stubbed, but the VM code itself would be entirely the same. I suspect that with proper design, the additional overhead would be nil, and more effort could be placed on optimization for multiple architectures. The total effect would be to see a net improvement in performance over more architectures as the project evolves. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 13:11:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF2314ED1 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:11:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA23272; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:10:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990301140945.03f161b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:10:14 -0700 To: Harold Gutch , Brian Behlendorf , "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990301220138.A22241@foobar.franken.de> References: <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost> <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:01 PM 3/1/99 +0100, Harold Gutch wrote: >Sounds like > http://sol-r.franken.de/~logix/killer.gif I want that on a T-shirt for LinuxWorld!!!!!! --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 13:45:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF9B153EF for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:44:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-111.thuntek.net [207.66.52.111]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id OAA22167 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:43:55 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DB1806.47F1CA58@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:43:18 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Will work for Free! References: <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost> <19990301220138.A22241@foobar.franken.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Who's the copyright holder for the neat little Daemon with the "Will work for Free" sign? I think that's the _best_ FreeBSD advertisement. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 13:51:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7087A15428 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:49:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA34983; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:49:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Harold Gutch , Brian Behlendorf , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:10:14 MST." <4.1.19990301140945.03f161b0@localhost> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:49:03 -0800 Message-ID: <34979.920324943@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > http://sol-r.franken.de/~logix/killer.gif > > I want that on a T-shirt for LinuxWorld!!!!!! It would be rather amusing to see someone being chased down the street by 500 pissed-off geeks, go for it Brett! :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 13:58:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143D41546B for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:58:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA23794; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:58:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990301145500.03f5a1f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:56:10 -0700 To: Don Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Will work for Free! In-Reply-To: <36DB1806.47F1CA58@thuntek.net> References: <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost> <19990301220138.A22241@foobar.franken.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Sm@rt Reseller magazine. I imagine that the best person to contact for permission to use the art would be Gary Bolles. All ZD e-mail addresses are of the form firstname_lastname@zd.com. --Brett Glass At 02:43 PM 3/1/99 -0800, Don Wilde wrote: >Who's the copyright holder for the neat little Daemon with the "Will >work for Free" sign? I think that's the _best_ FreeBSD advertisement. >-- > oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * > o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ > V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] >/oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 13:58:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 330DA1546D for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:58:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA23797; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:58:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990301145621.03f0f2a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 14:57:56 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Cc: Harold Gutch , Brian Behlendorf , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <34979.920324943@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:49 PM 3/1/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> > http://sol-r.franken.de/~logix/killer.gif >> >> I want that on a T-shirt for LinuxWorld!!!!!! > >It would be rather amusing to see someone being chased down the street >by 500 pissed-off geeks, go for it Brett! :-) > >- Jordan Hey, at least that way FreeBSD would get some ATTENTION. ;-) Seriously, though, there SHOULD be some of this sort of "advocacy" in the "raving lunatics" sector of the PR campaign. (If you want to hear my theory of OS PR and how to do it, I'll elaborate on what I mean by this.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 14: 6: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 86690154BA for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:06:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 21908 invoked from network); 1 Mar 1999 22:05:34 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 1 Mar 1999 22:05:34 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA24766; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:05:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903012205.RAA24766@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <34979.920324943@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 1, 99 01:49:03 pm" To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:05:29 -0500 (EST) Cc: brett@lariat.org, logix@foobar.franken.de, brian@hyperreal.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > > http://sol-r.franken.de/~logix/killer.gif > > > > I want that on a T-shirt for LinuxWorld!!!!!! > > It would be rather amusing to see someone being chased down the street > by 500 pissed-off geeks, go for it Brett! :-) > Don't be tweaking those cultists!!! No matter how much some people might disagree with the intensity of Brett's views, I am sure that all of us would be sad if he was hurt. (Luckily, those who are chasing him, might be doing so with Phasers, so there might not be all that much damage :-)). -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 14:10: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D96515490 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:09:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA23915; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:09:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990301150714.03ef4c60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 15:09:03 -0700 To: dyson@iquest.net, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Cc: logix@foobar.franken.de, brian@hyperreal.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903012205.RAA24766@y.dyson.net> References: <34979.920324943@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05:05 PM 3/1/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >Don't be tweaking those cultists!!! No matter how much some people >might disagree with the intensity of Brett's views, I am sure that >all of us would be sad if he was hurt. (Luckily, those who are chasing >him, might be doing so with Phasers, so there might not be all that >much damage :-)). Don't worry; the Linux cultists don't seem to be anywhere NEAR as violent as Amway salesmen. And I've dealt with THOSE cultists. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 14:14: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A943154D3 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:12:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-119.thuntek.net [207.66.52.119]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id PAA27516; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:12:33 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DB1EBF.BA2545ED@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 15:11:59 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost> <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost> <4.1.19990301140945.03f161b0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 10:01 PM 3/1/99 +0100, Harold Gutch wrote: > > >Sounds like > > http://sol-r.franken.de/~logix/killer.gif > > I want that on a T-shirt for LinuxWorld!!!!!! > > --Brett > Okay, but if YOU get skewered we'll all stand back... -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 14:16:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C899E154D9 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:16:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-119.thuntek.net [207.66.52.119]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id PAA27911; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:15:42 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DB1F7D.B781563A@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 15:15:09 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <199903012205.RAA24766@y.dyson.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John S. Dyson wrote: > > Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > > > http://sol-r.franken.de/~logix/killer.gif > > > > > > I want that on a T-shirt for LinuxWorld!!!!!! > > > > It would be rather amusing to see someone being chased down the street > > by 500 pissed-off geeks, go for it Brett! :-) > > > Don't be tweaking those cultists!!! No matter how much some people > might disagree with the intensity of Brett's views, I am sure that > all of us would be sad if he was hurt. (Luckily, those who are chasing > him, might be doing so with Phasers, so there might not be all that Agreed. We need Brett and Terry around to keep us dishonest. Actually, 500 phasers going "fwee, fwee!" would be rather hard on the ears. > much damage :-)). > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 14:30: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 998CD15542 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:29:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA24122; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:28:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990301152814.03f0c100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 15:28:45 -0700 To: Don Wilde , dyson@iquest.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36DB1F7D.B781563A@thuntek.net> References: <199903012205.RAA24766@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:15 PM 3/1/99 -0800, Don Wilde wrote: >John S. Dyson wrote: >> Don't be tweaking those cultists!!! No matter how much some people >> might disagree with the intensity of Brett's views, I am sure that >> all of us would be sad if he was hurt. (Luckily, those who are chasing >> him, might be doing so with Phasers, so there might not be all that > >Agreed. We need Brett and Terry around to keep us dishonest. Actually, >500 phasers going "fwee, fwee!" would be rather hard on the ears. I'll just have Scotty beam me up. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 15:50:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B08C14CB9 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:50:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id IAA20004; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:49:57 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DB275E.E0299062@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 08:48:46 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , Dave Yost , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <4.1.19990301080314.03f30a70@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > Yes, but not out of the box! You have to know what you have and > bring it in. FreeBSD excels at getting the system running from the > (single) original boot floppy. Alas, not single anymore. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 15:54:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AE515457 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 15:54:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id IAA20725; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:53:30 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DB2835.B1BF5F96@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 08:52:21 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harold Gutch Cc: Brett Glass , Brian Behlendorf , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost> <19990301220138.A22241@foobar.franken.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Harold Gutch wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 08:21:04AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > More bumper sticker ideas: > > > > "Use the Source, Luke" > > > "Use the Source, Yoda" ? :) You fail to grasp the real meaning of the phrase. FreeBSD is Yoda. *You* are a young, reckless jedi-wannabe who needs to be taught. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 16: 2:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DE8014CDE for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:02:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA25001; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:01:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990301165843.03f141f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 16:59:23 -0700 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , Dave Yost , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36DB275E.E0299062@newsguy.com> References: <4.1.19990301080314.03f30a70@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:48 AM 3/2/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: >> >> Yes, but not out of the box! You have to know what you have and >> bring it in. FreeBSD excels at getting the system running from the >> (single) original boot floppy. > >Alas, not single anymore. It is when *I* install it. I certainly hope it hasn't overflowed. That would mean that the kernel is porking out. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 16: 2:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5D0715402 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:02:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA25008; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:01:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990301170100.03f63e90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 17:01:43 -0700 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Harold Gutch From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) Cc: Brian Behlendorf , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36DB2835.B1BF5F96@newsguy.com> References: <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost> <19990301220138.A22241@foobar.franken.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:52 AM 3/2/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." No, Linux is Anakin Skywalker. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Mar 1 16: 7:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 942F8154AB for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:07:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id JAA23600; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:06:51 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DB2B53.C85E18C7@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:05:39 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brett Glass , Harold Gutch , Brian Behlendorf , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <34979.920324943@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > > http://sol-r.franken.de/~logix/killer.gif > > > > I want that on a T-shirt for LinuxWorld!!!!!! > > It would be rather amusing to see someone being chased down the street > by 500 pissed-off geeks, go for it Brett! :-) Who I buy tapes from? :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 0:16:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from gwdu60.gwdg.de (gwdu60.gwdg.de [134.76.10.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A47B14F13 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:16:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de) Received: from localhost (kheuer@localhost) by gwdu60.gwdg.de (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA03348; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:15:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:15:36 +0100 (CET) From: Konrad Heuer To: Don Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <36DB02C3.4E77AF6B@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Don Wilde wrote: > Konrad Heuer wrote: > >=20 > > Shame on me - I didn't read this thread of discussion completely. I hop= e, > > I don't state anything which has already been discussed. > >=20 > > I'm convinced the FreeBSD is superior to Linux if we discuss > > technical questions. But the world isn't really interested in. The succ= ess > > of the Microsoft systems does illustrate it. > >=20 >=20 > Nevertheless, if we discuss technical issues in userland English (or > German... ;-) , we can get the point across. Please don't get me wrong: Technical discussions are very interesting, and I like them. But how can we make the outside world listen to such arguments? I often tried to convince people but finally they choose Linux because it's so popular ... > > The main of advantage of Linux is its ongoing success in the commercial > > scene because people deciding for Linux feel calmed by the existence of > > RedHat or Caldera. For them Linux is now more reliable, it's nearly lik= e a > > commercial operating system. > >=20 > > We don't want that for FreeBSD. But in the long term one or two or thre= e > > Linux distributions will even go more commercial and will win the race. > > FreeBSD will stay a free operating system (I hope so) and will get only= a > > small part of the market. That's what I expect. > >=20 > Jordan hopes to prove you wrong... without going explicitly > 'commercial'... I hope so, too; and in this case I'd like to be proven wrong. I'm no friend of Linux. I don't hate it (killer.gif is a nice idea anyway), and I don't like it. > > Nevertheless, let's try to make FreeBSD more popular day by day! :-) > >=20 > hear, hear! :-D I'll do my best ...=09:-) // Konrad Heuer ____ ___ _____= __=20 // Gesellschaft f=FCr wissenschaftliche / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __= / _ \ // Datenverarbeitung mbH G=D6ttingen / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/= // / // Am Fa=DFberg, D-37077 G=D6ttingen /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___= /____/=20 // Deutschland (Germany) ----- The Power to Serve ----= - // http://www.freebsd.org // kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de // To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 2: 4:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D88D14BEE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 02:04:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@pike.cdrom.com) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by pike.cdrom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA01177; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 02:05:20 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903021005.CAA01177@pike.cdrom.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com Subject: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 02:05:19 -0800 From: "Robert A. Bruce" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Okay, the first draft of the FreeBSD vs Linux chart is done. I included Windows NT, because it is always fun to make Microsoft look bad, and it keeps this from looking too anti-Linux. http://www.cdrom.com/~rab/bsd_chart.html I appreciate any feedback or suggestions. Also spelling/grammer errors, etc. This is for San Jose LinuxWorld, so it needs to go to Kinko's by 8am PST. But late input is still appreciated. I can print out a new edition for Wednesday and Thursday. Does anyone have a good URL for an explaination of "Softupdates"? A lot of people will not know what it is, and I would like to provide a link. -bob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 2:39: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ns.wan (trltech.demon.co.uk [194.222.7.191]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B2614C57 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 02:37:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from trltech.co.uk (rdls.dhcp.sw.wan [192.9.201.75]) by ns.wan (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15754; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:36:35 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Message-ID: <36DBBF5E.E060A284@trltech.co.uk> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 10:37:18 +0000 From: Richard Smith Reply-To: richard@jezebel.demon.co.uk Organization: http://www.trltech.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (WinNT; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <199903021005.CAA01177@pike.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert A. Bruce wrote: > > http://www.cdrom.com/~rab/bsd_chart.html Link doesn't work :( All I get is the WC "Time to update your bookmarks" page. Richard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 3: 7:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (penguin-ext.wise.edt.ericsson.se [194.237.142.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1F7114C7F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 03:07:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from seb@erix.ericsson.se) Received: from super.du.etx.ericsson.se (root@super.du.etx.ericsson.se [130.100.34.16]) by penguin.wise.edt.ericsson.se (8.9.0/8.9.0/WIREfire-1.2) with ESMTP id MAA09426; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:06:54 +0100 (MET) Received: from scotch.du.etx.ericsson.se (seb@scotch [130.100.34.76]) by super.du.etx.ericsson.se (8.9.3/8.9.3/erix-1.6) with ESMTP id MAA26867; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:07:00 +0100 (MET) Received: by scotch.du.etx.ericsson.se (8.8.8/client-1.4) id MAA22218; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:07:00 +0100 (CET) To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <199903021005.CAA01177@pike.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII From: Sebastian Strollo Date: 02 Mar 1999 12:07:00 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Robert A. Bruce"'s message of Tue, 02 Mar 1999 02:05:19 -0800 Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.3/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Robert A. Bruce" writes: > > Does anyone have a good URL for an explaination of "Softupdates"? > A lot of people will not know what it is, and I would like to > provide a link. The URL to the report "Soft Updates: A Solution to the Metadata Update Problem in File Systems" (which I found very interesting) is: http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/papers/CSE-TR-254-95/ -- Sebastian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 3:10: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9747A14C11 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 03:10:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rab@pike.cdrom.com) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by pike.cdrom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id DAA04457; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 03:11:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903021111.DAA04457@pike.cdrom.com> To: richard@jezebel.demon.co.uk Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@pike.cdrom.com Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Mar 1999 10:37:18 GMT." <36DBBF5E.E060A284@trltech.co.uk> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 03:11:03 -0800 From: "Robert A. Bruce" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Oops. Please try it again. It looks like the file was deleted by a cronjob that mirrors pages from ftp.cdrom.com over to www.cdrom.com, and I put it there just before it ran. -bob Richard Smith said... >Robert A. Bruce wrote: >> >> http://www.cdrom.com/~rab/bsd_chart.html > >Link doesn't work :( > >All I get is the WC "Time to update your bookmarks" page. > >Richard. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 6:57:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8700314D4D for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 06:57:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-057.thuntek.net [207.66.52.57]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA03572; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:56:51 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DC09E3.2F959909@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 07:55:15 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Konrad Heuer Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG In a nutshell, when you score a technical point, you finish up with a brutally blunt statement that makes it clear that there's real danger involved. For ex: FreeBSD uses synchronous writes of data, whereas Linux, by default, uses asynchronous writes. This means that Linux doesn't write immediately: your data is saved in RAM until the machine is less busy, and then it writes. If your machine dies, you've lost the data. FreeBSD makes sure your data is saved immediately, and it's so much more efficient that even with safer writing policies FreeBSD is faster. Even if Linux is set up with synchronous writes (much slower!), there's still a list of data in RAM called 'metadata' that's the working list of filesystem information. FreeBSD makes sure this is recoverable; if your Linux system burps while files are open, you may lose the entire filesystem irretrievably. Everything! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 7: 5:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA13114E00 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 07:05:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-057.thuntek.net [207.66.52.57]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA04815; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:04:32 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DC0BAF.A688F35A@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 08:02:55 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <199903021005.CAA01177@pike.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert - Add 2 more chart sections: licensing (BSD : GNU : Payware) documentation (BSD textbooks : Linux HowTos : Microsoft misinformation :) ) Other than that, looks very good, mostly diplomatic... I think the overwhelming superiority of the BSD documentation from O'Reilly, A-W and Prentice-Hall is a major point in our favor, at least for serious users. Even the weenies benefit, because they know SOMEBODY out there's reading the docs and writing good code. Linux has nothing comparable, and Windows documentation just shows up its weak points for serious developers. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 8:26:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1776614CB8 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:24:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA01012; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:24:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302092127.03ff9da0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:23:57 -0700 To: "Robert A. Bruce" , richard@jezebel.demon.co.uk From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, rab@pike.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199903021111.DAA04457@pike.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Good chart! I'd change the bottom left-hand box to say that FreeBSD can install ITSELF across the Internet via a PPP or direct Internet connection after you boot only one floppy. As far as I know, none of the Linux distributions is as easy to install this way. (Do continue to plug the CD-ROMs too, of course.) Also, you might mention that the 24/7 Linux support companies are EXPENSIVE. --Brett At 03:11 AM 3/2/99 -0800, Robert A. Bruce wrote: >Oops. Please try it again. It looks like the file was deleted >by a cronjob that mirrors pages from ftp.cdrom.com over to >www.cdrom.com, and I put it there just before it ran. > > -bob > > >Richard Smith said... >>Robert A. Bruce wrote: >>> >>> http://www.cdrom.com/~rab/bsd_chart.html >> >>Link doesn't work :( >> >>All I get is the WC "Time to update your bookmarks" page. >> >>Richard. >> >> >>To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >>with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 8:58:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from isinet.com (mail.isinet.com [199.4.155.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E6714D9E for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:58:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aturoff@isinet.com) Received: by pandora.isinet.com id <113920>; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:45:16 -0500 Message-Id: <99Mar2.114516est.113920@pandora.isinet.com> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:57:14 -0500 From: Adam Turoff Reply-To: aturoff@isinet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.34 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <4.1.19990302092127.03ff9da0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > Good chart! I'd change the bottom left-hand box to say that > FreeBSD can install ITSELF across the Internet via a PPP > or direct Internet connection after you boot only one > floppy. As far as I know, none of the Linux distributions > is as easy to install this way. (Do continue to plug the > CD-ROMs too, of course.) I don't think that's strictly true. I have a friend who installed RedHat 4.x (maybe 3.x) over FTP a few years ago. These days, most distributions install off of a single floppy but may require a second floppy to do a network install (esp. with bizarre/non PCI ethernet hardware). I installed RH 5.0 this way about a year ago on a laptop that 2.2.5 didn't seem to like. Many linuxen still require 2 floppies to install on alien hardware, such as Alphas, etc. I think all of the major linux distributions can install over-the-wire these days. The interface may not be as intuitive or as highly publicized in the install docs, but it can be done. You could do _much_ worse. FreeBSD: ++ (can be done, single-floppy install) Linux: + (can be done, may require a second floppy) NT: -- (Must have CD + 3-4 floppies, + license number +...) > Also, you might mention that the 24/7 Linux support > companies are EXPENSIVE. Isn't 24x7 support expensive in general? -- Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 8:59: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021F214CF2 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:59:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA01334; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:58:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302095757.00b3f350@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:58:37 -0700 To: "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: <199903021005.CAA01177@pike.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 02:05 AM 3/2/99 -0800, Robert A. Bruce wrote: >I appreciate any feedback or suggestions. Also spelling/grammer >errors, etc. s/grammer/grammar/ ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 9: 2:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0E6150DF for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:01:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA01369; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:01:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 10:00:48 -0700 To: aturoff@isinet.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <99Mar2.114516est.113920@pandora.isinet.com> References: <4.1.19990302092127.03ff9da0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:57 AM 3/2/99 -0500, Adam Turoff wrote: >Isn't 24x7 support expensive in general? Yes, but especially so for Linux, for some reason. Price Cygnus sometime. Whew! As for the network installs: in many cases, you have to FTP the entire Linux distribution onto one partition and then install onto another. Not exactly user-friendly. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 9: 9: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from dalamar.cs.uwec.edu (dalamar.cs.uwec.edu [137.28.109.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D2714D77 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from godfreja@dalamar.cs.uwec.edu) Received: from localhost (godfreja@localhost) by dalamar.cs.uwec.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA25650; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:04:47 -0600 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:04:46 -0600 (EST) From: Jason Andrew Godfrey To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <199903021005.CAA01177@pike.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hope this isn't too late, but one slight correction. I've been informed (because I made the same claim about linux only running linux binaries) that Linux can run SCO binaries with the proper module. Of course, FreeBSD still can run more binary types. -- Jason On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Robert A. Bruce wrote: > Okay, the first draft of the FreeBSD vs Linux chart is done. I > included Windows NT, because it is always fun to make Microsoft > look bad, and it keeps this from looking too anti-Linux. > > http://www.cdrom.com/~rab/bsd_chart.html > > I appreciate any feedback or suggestions. Also spelling/grammer > errors, etc. This is for San Jose LinuxWorld, so it needs to go > to Kinko's by 8am PST. But late input is still appreciated. I > can print out a new edition for Wednesday and Thursday. > > Does anyone have a good URL for an explaination of "Softupdates"? > A lot of people will not know what it is, and I would like to > provide a link. > > -bob > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 9:38:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pcslink.com (pcslink.com [206.43.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F020150D4 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:38:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ryan@pcslink.com) Received: (from ryan@localhost) by pcslink.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id KAA24155; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:38:19 -0700 (MST) From: Ryan Mooney Message-Id: <199903021738.KAA24155@pcslink.com> Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <36DC0BAF.A688F35A@thuntek.net> from Don Wilde at "Mar 2, 99 08:02:55 am" To: dwilde1@thuntek.net (Don Wilde) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:38:19 -0700 (MST) Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL31H (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I would be nervous about toughting our lead in book based documentation. While there are some very good books that are applicable to FBSD there are a LOT of linux books out there (been to the book store lately - eek). Also a lot of the books listed on the FBSD web site are generic un*x reference (yes yes a lot contain BSD specific sections, but thats also relevant to OS's that emulate some *BSD functionality - like AIX). The handbook and the online docs are leaps and bounds ahead of the Linux howto cruft, but a weenie who walks into the book store will see 50+ linux books and no FreeBSD books. I feel that we need to be carefull to not fall into the unsubstantiated claims trap. > Other than that, looks very good, mostly diplomatic... I think the > overwhelming superiority of the BSD documentation from O'Reilly, A-W and > Prentice-Hall is a major point in our favor, at least for serious users. > Even the weenies benefit, because they know SOMEBODY out there's reading > the docs and writing good code. Linux has nothing comparable, and > Windows documentation just shows up its weak points for serious > developers. >-=-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-<>-=-=-=-=-=-=-< Ryan Mooney Phone (602)265-9188 PCSLink ryan@pcslink.com Internet Services NT is an excellent choice for managers who need to show that they used up their fiscal year budget for hardware/software expenditures. <-=-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-><-=-=-=-=-=-=-> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 9:50:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81BE0154D5 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:50:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id SAA04682; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:48:00 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19990302184800.B4386@foobar.franken.de> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:48:00 +0100 From: Harold Gutch To: Don Wilde , Konrad Heuer Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <36DC09E3.2F959909@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <36DC09E3.2F959909@thuntek.net>; from Don Wilde on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 07:55:15AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 07:55:15AM -0800, Don Wilde wrote: > FreeBSD uses synchronous writes of data, whereas Linux, by default, uses > asynchronous writes. This means that Linux doesn't write immediately: > your data is saved in RAM until the machine is less busy, and then it > writes. If your machine dies, you've lost the data. FreeBSD makes sure > your data is saved immediately, and it's so much more efficient that > even with safer writing policies FreeBSD is faster. I saw a posting by Martin Cracauer to a German BSD-newsgroup a couple of days ago, which can be summed up to "normal synchronous writes (the 'classic' FreeBSD thing) are slow, asynchronous writes (what Linux does) are dangerous - softupdates are a little slower than asynchronous writes, but ensure the reliability of synchronous writes. Is there some real good comparism of all the three, like in what case you might lose data with each of the three possibilities (according to that posting, there's a small chance of data-loss with synchronous writes, so I guess that it's the same for softupdates, too) and (rough) speed-comparisms of them ? bye, Harold -- Sleep is an abstinence syndrome wich occurs due to lack of caffein. Wed Mar 4 04:53:33 CET 1998 #unix, ircnet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 9:56: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from unix1.it-datacntr.louisville.edu (unix1.it-datacntr.louisville.edu [136.165.4.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BEF6114CFB for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:55:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from k.stevenson@louisville.edu) Received: from homer.louisville.edu (ktstev01@homer.louisville.edu [136.165.1.20]) by unix1.it-datacntr.louisville.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id MAA20978 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:55:41 -0500 Received: (from ktstev01@localhost) by homer.louisville.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04897 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:55:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990302125540.A28002@homer.louisville.edu> Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:55:40 -0500 From: Keith Stevenson To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <4.1.19990302092127.03ff9da0@localhost> <99Mar2.114516est.113920@pandora.isinet.com> <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 10:00:48AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 10:00:48AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > As for the network installs: in many cases, > you have to FTP the entire Linux distribution > onto one partition and then install onto > another. Not exactly user-friendly. I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree here. I've done more RedHat Linux installs than I care to admit to, and all you need to install it over the internet is a pair of floppies. You write the install images on to the floppies, boot the first one, and then insert the second one to load the device drivers for most network cards. After you hand enter your network configuration and the target FTP URL, the installer goes and installs the system onto the disks you configured in a prior step. All in all, the process is _very_ similar (read that as practically identical) to the process of installing FreeBSD over a network connection. My previous experiences have been with RedHat, but my Linux-user friends tell me that SuSE is very similar. Actually, I don't think that FreeBSD can keep claiming that its installer is "more user friendly" than Linux. I used Linux for a long time before discovering FreeBSD a year ago. The Linux installer has come a long way since the early Slackware distributions. In fact, the first few times I installed FreeBSD, I spent a lot of time cursing the installer before I got used to its quirks. If anything, I think that both OS's have achieved parity in the ease of installation category. Regards, --Keith Stevenson-- -- Keith Stevenson System Programmer - Data Center Services - University of Louisville k.stevenson@louisville.edu PGP key fingerprint = 4B 29 A8 95 A8 82 EA A2 29 CE 68 DE FC EE B6 A0 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 11:20:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C18BA14DB0 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:20:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-089.thuntek.net [207.66.52.89]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id MAA07245; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:20:09 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DC479F.66BF458B@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 12:18:39 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ryan Mooney Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <199903021738.KAA24155@pcslink.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Ryan Mooney wrote: > > I would be nervous about toughting our lead in book based documentation. > While there are some very good books that are applicable to FBSD there are > a LOT of linux books out there (been to the book store lately - eek). > Also a lot of the books listed on the FBSD web site are generic un*x > reference (yes yes a lot contain BSD specific sections, but thats also > relevant to OS's that emulate some *BSD functionality - like AIX). > The handbook and the online docs are leaps and bounds ahead of the Linux > howto cruft, but a weenie who walks into the book store will see 50+ > linux books and no FreeBSD books. I feel that we need to be carefull to > not fall into the unsubstantiated claims trap. > Yes, but most of the Linux books are crap, (everything you always wanted to know about your kitchen sink!) quickly rushed into publication on a 90-day deadline. Most textbooks are written by BSD users, and usually academic users at that. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 11:56:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com [195.139.121.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C25C714D93 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:56:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pms@jancomulti.com) Received: from jancomulti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA00416; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:53:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from pms@jancomulti.com) Message-ID: <36DC41B6.B4E2B587@jancomulti.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:53:26 +0100 From: "Pål Sommerhein" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <199903021005.CAA01177@pike.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Robert A. Bruce wrote: > > Okay, the first draft of the FreeBSD vs Linux chart is done. I > included Windows NT, because it is always fun to make Microsoft > look bad, and it keeps this from looking too anti-Linux. > > http://www.cdrom.com/~rab/bsd_chart.html > > I appreciate any feedback or suggestions. Also spelling/grammer [...] Nice chart! Under "Performance" I would add "FAST FTP Search" as an example of who uses FreeBSD. Quote from http://ftpsearch.lycos.com: What is FTP search anyway ? --------------------------- Search the world's biggest file download site. With over 100 million files, Lycos FTP Search has your software, mp3s, games, screensavers, pictures, pilotware and more. See also: http://web.fast.no/product/SW/det.asp?id=57 (see under heading Performance) (ftp search page: http://www.fastftp.lycos.com) (MP3 search page: http://mp3.fast.no) Paal Sommerhein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 12:11:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C545514D00 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:11:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA03337; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:11:28 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302130844.00ca3740@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 13:09:39 -0700 To: Keith Stevenson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <19990302125540.A28002@homer.louisville.edu> References: <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost> <4.1.19990302092127.03ff9da0@localhost> <99Mar2.114516est.113920@pandora.isinet.com> <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 12:55 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Keith Stevenson wrote: >I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree here. I've done more RedHat Linux >installs than I care to admit to, and all you need to install it over the >internet is a pair of floppies. You write the install images on to the >floppies, boot the first one, and then insert the second one to load the >device drivers for most network cards. IIRC, you can't use PPP for Red Hat at all, though. And this is the way most users connect to the Net. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 12:15:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com [195.139.121.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F082814D89 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:14:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pms@jancomulti.com) Received: from jancomulti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00441; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:11:25 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from pms@jancomulti.com) Message-ID: <36DC45ED.260266EE@jancomulti.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 21:11:25 +0100 From: "Pål Sommerhein" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <4.1.19990302092127.03ff9da0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > Good chart! I'd change the bottom left-hand box to say that > FreeBSD can install ITSELF across the Internet via a PPP > or direct Internet connection after you boot only one > floppy. ^^^ ^^^^^^ I'm afraid we now use two floppies. ftp://ftp.freebsd.org/pub/FreeBSD/3.1-RELEASE/floppies/README.TXT reads: [For a normal CDROM or network installation, all you need to copy onto actual floppies from this directory are the kern.flp and mfsroot.flp images (for 1.44MB floppies). Get two blank, freshly formatted floppies and image copy kern.flp onto one and mfsroot.flp onto the other. These images are NOT DOS ...] Take care, Paal Sommerhein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 12:19:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0624414D8B for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:19:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA088495947; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:19:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:19:07 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Adam Turoff Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <99Mar2.114516est.113920@pandora.isinet.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Adam Turoff wrote: > FreeBSD: ++ (can be done, single-floppy install) This is not true anymore. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 12:27:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B5414E58 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:27:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA03504; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:26:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 13:26:52 -0700 To: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <99Mar2.114516est.113920@pandora.isinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, as I understand it, FreeBSD 3.x is still not what's recommended for production applications. (I'm installing 2.2.8 on all of the productions machines I bring up.) So does this count? I still think it's an unfortunate development, though. Maybe it's possible to bring in more code from the Net or the CD after the boot, to keep the boot to one floppy. --Brett At 03:19 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Bill Fumerola wrote: >On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Adam Turoff wrote: > >> FreeBSD: ++ (can be done, single-floppy install) > >This is not true anymore. > >- bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - >- ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 12:36:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E5E5414DFD for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:36:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 6692 invoked from network); 2 Mar 1999 20:35:48 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 20:35:48 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA66502; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:35:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903022035.PAA66502@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <19990302184800.B4386@foobar.franken.de> from Harold Gutch at "Mar 2, 99 06:48:00 pm" To: logix@foobar.franken.de (Harold Gutch) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:35:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: dwilde1@thuntek.net, kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Harold Gutch said: > On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 07:55:15AM -0800, Don Wilde wrote: > > FreeBSD uses synchronous writes of data, whereas Linux, by default, uses > > asynchronous writes. This means that Linux doesn't write immediately: > > your data is saved in RAM until the machine is less busy, and then it > > writes. If your machine dies, you've lost the data. FreeBSD makes sure > > your data is saved immediately, and it's so much more efficient that > > even with safer writing policies FreeBSD is faster. > > I saw a posting by Martin Cracauer to a German BSD-newsgroup a > couple of days ago, which can be summed up to "normal synchronous > writes (the 'classic' FreeBSD thing) are slow, asynchronous > writes (what Linux does) are dangerous - softupdates are a little > slower than asynchronous writes, but ensure the reliability of > synchronous writes. > In many cases, it seems that softupdates is slower than full async. However, softupdates, being much more intelligent, can avoid doing data I/O at all under certain circumstances. (Temp files.) Async isn't quite as smart. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 12:38:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B01014D89 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:38:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA095657081; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:38:01 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:38:01 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Well, as I understand it, FreeBSD 3.x is still not what's > recommended for production applications. (I'm installing 2.2.8 on > all of the productions machines I bring up.) So does this count? RELENG_2_2 is dead. RELENG_3 is whats here and now. > I still think it's an unfortunate development, though. Maybe > it's possible to bring in more code from the Net or the CD > after the boot, to keep the boot to one floppy. We've put this off long enough. jkh can give you million reasons why he is more happy with the 2-floppy solution. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 12:42:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FAC914E0B for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:41:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 13083 invoked from network); 2 Mar 1999 20:41:31 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 20:41:31 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA66511; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:41:30 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903022041.PAA66511@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Mar 2, 99 10:00:48 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:41:30 -0500 (EST) Cc: aturoff@isinet.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass said: > At 11:57 AM 3/2/99 -0500, Adam Turoff wrote: > > >Isn't 24x7 support expensive in general? > > Yes, but especially so for Linux, for some > reason. Price Cygnus sometime. Whew! > Much of the "support" for GPLed works from named firms is VERY expensive. The notion of "support" of GPLed works, kind of reminds me of the kind of "support" that one gets from a bicycle without a seat. :-). In some ways, the "support" is alot less than you want, but in the ways that you don't want, it is alot more :-). Also, support firms often embargo GPLed works, unless you pay for the "support." -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 12:48:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6B9E14E00 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:48:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA03696; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:48:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 13:48:13 -0700 To: Bill Fumerola From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:38 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Bill Fumerola wrote: >RELENG_2_2 is dead. RELENG_3 is whats here and now. If so, it's dead too soon. One should always wait for the .2 or .3 release of ANYTHING one is using on a production system. Especially since 3.0 was SPECIFICALLY labeled as not ready for mission-critical systems. >We've put this off long enough. jkh can give you million reasons why he is >more happy with the 2-floppy solution. Well, we all know that Jordan worked long and hard on the install code and did all sorts of tricks to keep it to one floppy. Nonetheless, I think that this is an important selling point. Also, from a technical standpoint, there's no reason why a single floppy can't reach out to the installation media and bring in any code that won't fit. This may well be an opportunity to leapfrog Linux once again. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 12:54: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A07EA14D27 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:54:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA03767; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:53:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302135100.00a0f680@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 13:53:41 -0700 To: advocacy@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: "No licensing restrictions?" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The chart at http://www.cdrom.com/~rab/bsd_chart.html says, in the bottom box in the middle column, that Linux has "no licensing restrictions." This is not so. The GPL severely restricts commercial reuse of the code and prevents the addition of customized features by value-added resellers unless they give away their work (and, hence, their unique advantage). This should be mentioned here. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 12:55:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 985EE14DED for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:55:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA03779; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:55:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302135424.00a10330@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 13:54:59 -0700 To: dyson@iquest.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: aturoff@isinet.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903022041.PAA66511@y.dyson.net> References: <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:41 PM 3/2/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >Also, support firms often embargo GPLed works, >unless you pay for the "support." What does this mean, exactly? It does not sound good. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 13:22:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE79B15559 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:21:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19022; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:20:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:20:52 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990302132052.C18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 01:48:13PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 01:48:13PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:38 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Bill Fumerola wrote: > > >We've put this off long enough. jkh can give you million reasons why he is > >more happy with the 2-floppy solution. > > Also, from a technical standpoint, there's no reason why a single > floppy can't reach out to the installation media and bring in any > code that won't fit. This may well be an opportunity to leapfrog > Linux once again. Well, Brett, if you can't fit a generic kernel and networking code on the same disk, then you can't reach out to your installation media in the first place. Having two floppies is far far better than having different floppies for different types of installations (e.g. the network install floppies, the cdrom install floppy, the nullmodem install floppy (ouch), etc.). The goal is not to leapfrog Linux or any other operating system. The goal is to provide the best possible OS. This sometimes means making compromises in certain areas in exchange for superior overall quality -- which is what was done here. If attaining that level of quality means that FreeBSD leapfrogs other OSes in certain areas, that's all the better, but it isn't a goal. The FreeBSD project is _not_ driven by marketing, and I will certainly do my (albeit small) part to ensure that it stays that way. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "Very funny, Scotty. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com Now beam down my clothes." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 13:36:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5046515477 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:35:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA04147; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:35:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302142419.00adaba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:34:07 -0700 To: Gregory Sutter From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990302132052.C18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:20 PM 3/2/99 -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: >Well, Brett, if you can't fit a generic kernel and networking code on >the same disk, then you can't reach out to your installation media in >the first place. Given that the older installation disks contained that and also much more, I find it hard to believe that a newer one couldn't do so as well. Admittedly, it might require using a kernel that omitted some device support to get at those things, but that's not a problem; you don't need (for example) MS-DOS file system support or magtape support in an installation kernel. >Having two floppies is far far better than having >different floppies for different types of installations (e.g. the >network install floppies, the cdrom install floppy, the nullmodem >install floppy (ouch), etc.). Actually, having a separate CD-ROM install floppy would be fine, because it'd be easy to generate it from the CD-ROM if need be. People doing network installs would generate their floppies from the Net. But I think that even this just MIGHT be avoidable if the install kernel were simply streamlined for installation. >The goal is not to leapfrog Linux or any other operating system. The goal is always to improve the system's usability. And in this case, it's a very worthy goal to leapfrog Linux as well. The BSDs have been unfairly maligned by the Linux "faithful" and need a boost. >The goal is to provide the best possible OS. The best possible OS would install from one floppy at most. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 13:56:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765BF155D0 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:55:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19253; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:54:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:54:54 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990302135454.D18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <19990302132052.C18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> <4.1.19990302142419.00adaba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302142419.00adaba0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 02:34:07PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 02:34:07PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:20 PM 3/2/99 -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > >Having two floppies is far far better than having > >different floppies for different types of installations (e.g. the > >network install floppies, the cdrom install floppy, the nullmodem > >install floppy (ouch), etc.). > > Actually, having a separate CD-ROM install floppy would be fine, > because it'd be easy to generate it from the CD-ROM if need be. > People doing network installs would generate their floppies from > the Net. But I think that even this just MIGHT be avoidable if > the install kernel were simply streamlined for installation. Two floppies for any situation strikes me as better than one-disk and two-disk separate sets for different situations. Having two floppies also allows more space for things like the new installation system that will be in 4.0. I haven't seen the system, but from its list of features, it seems like trying to cram that along with a generic kernel and associated tools onto one floppy would be very difficult. > >The goal is not to leapfrog Linux or any other operating system. > > The goal is always to improve the system's usability. And in this > case, it's a very worthy goal to leapfrog Linux as well. The > BSDs have been unfairly maligned by the Linux "faithful" and > need a boost. Does it matter if they malign FreeBSD? Let them! The clueful will do as they always do and use the product that they find best. The clueless will plant their feet and refuse to consider alternatives, instead choosing to malign and spread disinformation about everything except their chosen product. > >The goal is to provide the best possible OS. > > The best possible OS would install from one floppy at most. You didn't read a word I wrote, did you? I said specifically, "This sometimes means making compromises in certain areas in exchange for superior overall quality." We've compromised on the single-floppy install in exchange for superior quality of installation, and therefore, superior quality overall. A second floppy is not that big a compromise. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter The best way to accelerate Windows mailto:gsutter@pobox.com is at 9.8 m/s^2. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 14: 2:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2F014EDE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:01:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA19455; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:00:45 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:00:45 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Well, as I understand it, FreeBSD 3.x is still not what's > recommended for production applications. (I'm installing 2.2.8 on > all of the productions machines I bring up.) So does this count? There's a reason we now have 3.1-STABLE. The 2.2.* branch is dead and eventually (probably fairly quickly) ports will stop compiling correctly for the 2.2 branch even if they have the ports updates correctly installed. Brett ****************************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu http://peloton.physics.montana.edu/brett/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 14:20: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B97814DBB for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:20:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id OAA29944; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:19:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id OAA19389; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:19:13 -0800 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id PAA00423; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:19:06 -0700 Message-ID: <36DC63EB.3A4AE7E6@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:19:23 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "No licensing restrictions?" References: <4.1.19990302135100.00a0f680@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > The chart at > > http://www.cdrom.com/~rab/bsd_chart.html > > says, in the bottom box in the middle column, that Linux has "no licensing > restrictions." This is not so. The GPL severely restricts commercial reuse > of the code and prevents the addition of customized features by value-added > resellers unless they give away their work (and, hence, their unique advantage). > This should be mentioned here. I believe Linux *does* have SCO binary emulation capability, too. The chart should reflect this. -- Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket? Wes Peters +1.801.915.2061 Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 14:52:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9E0914E26 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:51:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA04900; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:51:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302154008.00c93c80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:45:13 -0700 To: Gregory Sutter From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990302135454.D18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <4.1.19990302142419.00adaba0@localhost> <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <19990302132052.C18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> <4.1.19990302142419.00adaba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 01:54 PM 3/2/99 -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: >Two floppies for any situation strikes me as better than one-disk >and two-disk separate sets for different situations. Having two >floppies also allows more space for things like the new installation >system that will be in 4.0. This, again, could either be fit on the disk with a stripped-down kernel or downloaded after the machine first starts. One advantage of downloading it is that it can give the user a choice of versions on the fly. This would be a novel feature: the first part of the installation program could interrogate the server or CD, find out which versions were there (say, 2.2.8-RELEASE, 3.1-RELEASE, and 3.1-CURRENT) and offer a choice. It would then download the installer for that version. This would be far better than what we have now, and also smaller than the 1-disk install code for 2.2.8. >Does it matter if they malign FreeBSD? Let them! Yes, it matters. Big time. The GPL is spreading like the virus that it is. If we want to have a livelihood tomorrow, we'll fight this NOW. >> The best possible OS would install from one floppy at most. > >You didn't read a word I wrote, did you? I said specifically, "This >sometimes means making compromises in certain areas in exchange for >superior overall quality." We've compromised on the single-floppy >install in exchange for superior quality of installation, and therefore, >superior quality overall. A second floppy is not that big a compromise. It's a HUGE compromise, and may show an unwillingness to "think outside the box" and innovate something better. I think it's a rotten idea. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 14:53: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C2AA14E3A for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:51:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA04903; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:51:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302154522.03fb3730@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:51:13 -0700 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 03:00 PM 3/2/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >There's a reason we now have 3.1-STABLE. The 2.2.* branch is dead and >eventually (probably fairly quickly) ports will stop compiling correctly >for the 2.2 branch even if they have the ports updates correctly >installed. Sorry, but recent releases that are used in existing mission critical systems are NOT "dead limbs" to be sawn off within only a couple of months of release. I can see the Linuxoids ranting now: "See? The FreeBSD team doesn't even provide ports for a release that's less than 6 months old! So much for their 'great ports collection.' That's the kind of support you'll get if you use FreeBSD." Sad to say, they'll have a point. Conservative users who lag behind a version or two to ensure stability are the LAST people the FreeBSD team should want to disenfranchise. ("The power to serve," remember?) The ports had BETTER keep working for AT LEAST a year after release. To do anything less is to hurt users and damage FreeBSD's reputation beyond repair. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 15:12: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29E1C14ECE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:12:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA19902; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:10:54 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:10:54 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302154522.03fb3730@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:00 PM 3/2/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: > > >There's a reason we now have 3.1-STABLE. The 2.2.* branch is dead and > >eventually (probably fairly quickly) ports will stop compiling correctly > >for the 2.2 branch even if they have the ports updates correctly > >installed. > Sorry, but recent releases that are used in existing mission critical > systems are NOT "dead limbs" to be sawn off within only a couple of > months of release. I can see the Linuxoids ranting now: "See? The > FreeBSD team doesn't even provide ports for a release that's less than > 6 months old! So much for their 'great ports collection.' That's the > kind of support you'll get if you use FreeBSD." Bzzzt. The 2.2.8 ports collection will be around for a long while yet since it was the end of the 2.2.* branch. If you want to keep your ports collection stuck at 2.2.8 you're fine. BUT if you, for example, want to update some port because a new security exploit has been found or the new version has some features you just can't live without and you're running 2.2.8 still you _may_ not be able to upgrade easily because the ports track STABLE. That's it. Trying to maintain ELF and a.out versions of ports is non-trivial. Ask Satoshi or Steve Price or any number of maintainers what a pain it was to try to make both work. If you want to try to maintain a set of 2100 ports for 2.2.8 that is continuously updated with appropriate bsd.port.*.Mk files to track what's happening in STABLE then I'm sure some would appreciate it, but the ports team will not be the ones doing it. > Sad to say, they'll have a point. Conservative users who lag behind a > version or two to ensure stability are the LAST people the FreeBSD > team should want to disenfranchise. Nobody said the ports tree from 2.2.8 was going away anytime soon. Remember how you went off about the qpopper exploit? Say that happens now. Say that qpopper is/was one of the ports that was difficult to make both ELF and a.out versions build. Ports track STABLE; STABLE is ELF; new version that fixes exploit might not compile cleanly for a.out so those running a.out systems (read 2.2.8) are now on their own. We already have enough people who grab copies of updated ports and don't even know to grab the port_upgrade packages. Trying to maintain both a.out and ELF will only magnify the current problems. > The ports had BETTER keep working for AT LEAST a year after release. > To do anything less is to hurt users and damage FreeBSD's reputation > beyond repair. By your reasoning we should also be still trying to support the 2.2.6 ports tree (2.2.6 came out in Mar 98). It's long since gone and I haven't heard you complaining about that. You could at least be consistent in your rants. Brett (definitely not Glass) Taylor *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 15:19:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0BB1505E for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:19:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-063.thuntek.net [207.66.52.63]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id QAA23998; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:18:36 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DC7F82.63C6820A@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:17:06 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <4.1.19990302154522.03fb3730@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:00 PM 3/2/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: > > >There's a reason we now have 3.1-STABLE. The 2.2.* branch is dead and > >eventually (probably fairly quickly) ports will stop compiling correctly > >for the 2.2 branch even if they have the ports updates correctly > >installed. > > Sorry, but recent releases that are used in existing mission critical systems > are NOT "dead limbs" to be sawn off within only a couple of months of > release. I can see the Linuxoids ranting now: "See? The FreeBSD team doesn't > even provide ports for a release that's less than 6 months old! So much > for their 'great ports collection.' That's the kind of support you'll get if > you use FreeBSD." > > Sad to say, they'll have a point. Conservative users who lag behind a version > or two to ensure stability are the LAST people the FreeBSD team should want > to disenfranchise. ("The power to serve," remember?) The ports had BETTER keep > working for AT LEAST a year after release. To do anything less is to hurt > users and damage FreeBSD's reputation beyond repair. > > --Brett I __STRONGLY__ concur with this. I will scream to high heaven if major ports stop working on 2.2.8, unless it can be guaranteed that 3.1 is as stable and forgiving in all production situations. I am now installing 3.1 to test, so I'm sure I'll find out soon myself, but if I put a client machine up and it barfs I -- and FreeBSD -- are dead meat for that client. I know it's a lot of work to maintain three trees, especially when the compiler has gone ELF, but, please, even if you have to teach ME how to do it, do it!!! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 15:21:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 940DB14CD2 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:21:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA05241; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:20:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302161355.00ad66b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:20:49 -0700 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990302154522.03fb3730@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:10 PM 3/2/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >By your reasoning we should also be still trying to support the 2.2.6 >ports tree (2.2.6 came out in Mar 98). It's long since gone and I haven't >heard you complaining about that. You could at least be consistent in >your rants. It appears that you're the one who's denying the basic need for consistent support. Yes, 2.2.6 is less than a year old, so there SHOULD be a ports tree for it. There's nothing more frustrating than running /stand/sysinstall to grab a port and discovering that the ports for your version are gone only a few months after you installed. And you know why so few people use those "upgrade kits?" It's because they're buried in an obscure portion of the Web site with precious few pointers to them. The software should take the user to the right place and/or install them as a dependency. As for the switch to ELF: yes, it makes maintaining ports a little trickier, but if we want to keep loyal users it is inappropriate to make this THEIR problem just because they are (wisely) being conservative about upgrading to a very different version. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 15:35:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721BE14F99 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:35:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id QAA20109; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:34:39 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:34:39 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302161355.00ad66b0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, > And you know why so few people use those "upgrade kits?" It's because > they're buried in an obscure portion of the Web site with precious few > pointers to them. The software should take the user to the right place > and/or install them as a dependency. Let's see... go to http://www.freebsd.org/ports/. Near the top in the text it says, and I quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- The ports listed on these web pages are continually being updated. Consequently, you may need to update a few files on your FreeBSD system to make use of ports developed after your version of FreeBSD was released. Please install one of the following depending on the release you are running. Also, if you are running FreeBSD-stable or FreeBSD-current that is more than a few days old, you are recommended to install an appropriate upgrade kit as well; the ports system is changing very fast at times. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Now if you use CVSup to follow the ports tree you will get the correct *.mk files. You won't if you grab individual ports. And having the upgrade kit does nothing to make ports difficult to compile for a.out easier now that we've switched to ELF. > As for the switch to ELF: yes, it makes maintaining ports a little > trickier, but if we want to keep loyal users it is inappropriate to > make this THEIR problem just because they are (wisely) being > conservative about upgrading to a very different version. I won't argue what the core team has decided. The move to ELF is required if you want to keep up w/ the Linux world which you desperately seem to want. Go read the archives to find out why. That said I see you maintain no ports at all (http://www.freebsd.org/~fenner/portsurvey/maintainers.html) and yet you think it's possible to keep up 2 very different kinds of ports trees - one for a.out and one for ELF STABLE. It's hard enough maintaining it for one tree as it is - don't think so? Go check the number of open PRs. As more and more ports get added (2100 now) that workload increases. We're a volunteer effort and as Greg Sutter said in a different email, sacrifices have to be made to get the best overall quality. To keep the ports tree as good as it is requires that we not keep a 2.2.* up to date. *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 15:37:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F96214DE3 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:37:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 8681 invoked from network); 2 Mar 1999 23:36:59 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 23:36:59 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA66800; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:36:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903022336.SAA66800@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302135424.00a10330@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Mar 2, 99 01:54:59 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:36:59 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, aturoff@isinet.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass said: > At 03:41 PM 3/2/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > >Also, support firms often embargo GPLed works, > >unless you pay for the "support." > > What does this mean, exactly? It does not sound > good. > People supplying GPLed works, can embargo giving them to you, if you don't "pay them." What the support companies can do is to keep from giving you the externally available GPLed works, plus their enhancements, without you giving them a "consideration." This blows away the notion of GPL software definitely releasing ideas to the public, but trades it for a misrepresentation of "support" actually being a sale. That scheme mostly only works for big support companies, at the expense of the small time developer. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 15:47:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9662514CFB for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:47:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA162048429; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:47:09 -0500 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:47:09 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302161355.00ad66b0@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Yes, 2.2.6 is less than a year old, so there SHOULD be a ports tree for it. > There's nothing more frustrating than running /stand/sysinstall to grab a port > and discovering that the ports for your version are gone only a few months > after you installed. $ cvs co -rRELEASE_2_2_6 ports There, ports support for 2.2.6 You can't move forward and hold to old releases forever, what was released is still supported inasmuch that it still exists, but maintaining 3 trees is unrealistic. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 16: 9:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDF1214E01 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:09:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA05728; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:08:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302165551.00c88510@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:58:00 -0700 To: dyson@iquest.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: dyson@iquest.net, aturoff@isinet.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903022336.SAA66800@y.dyson.net> References: <4.1.19990302135424.00a10330@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:36 PM 3/2/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >People supplying GPLed works, can embargo giving >them to you, if you don't "pay them." What the >support companies can do is to keep from giving >you the externally available GPLed works, plus >their enhancements, without you giving them a >"consideration." In other words, they don't release the works to anyone unless SOMEONE pays them to do the work. Cute. >This blows away the notion of GPL software definitely >releasing ideas to the public, but trades it for >a misrepresentation of "support" actually being a sale. True. It's not a sale, because you can't "sell" the code. >That scheme mostly only works for big support >companies, at the expense of the small time developer. Gee, it seems as if this whole GPL thing is designed to hurt the little guys at the expense of the big guys. (Of course, Stallman, having claimed credit for Linux, now considers himself to be a Big Guy.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 16:11:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DF814E05 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:09:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA05725; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:08:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302163944.00a1e620@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:55:20 -0700 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990302161355.00ad66b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:34 PM 3/2/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >Now if you use CVSup to follow the ports tree Stop right there. Most users don't even know what CVSup is, much less use it to update source. They don't want a system that changes every day, nor do they want the overhead of updating everything constantly. >> As for the switch to ELF: yes, it makes maintaining ports a little >> trickier, but if we want to keep loyal users it is inappropriate to >> make this THEIR problem just because they are (wisely) being >> conservative about upgrading to a very different version. > >I won't argue what the core team has decided. The move to ELF is required >if you want to keep up w/ the Linux world which you desperately seem to >want. Sorry, but NOT moving to ELF is required if I want to install proven, stable versions of FreeBSD. I'm still installing 2.2.8, and will CONTINUE to install 2.2.8 until there are at least one or two more releases along the 3.0-STABLE branch. I and my clients have been burned by upgrading too fast before. We need stability. Period. ELF has no advantages in this regard. >That said I see you maintain no ports at all True. I haven't been asked to. Nor would I want to, if the ports system left users in the cold like that. >and yet you think it's possible to keep up 2 very different kinds of ports >trees - one for a.out and one for ELF STABLE. It's hard enough >maintaining it for one tree as it is - don't think so? Go check the >number of open PRs. If it's a problem, it's a problem with the system. Compiling to two formats should not be THAT difficult. But if it's REALLY such a big deal for you to compile to anything but ELF, why not create a module that lets 2.2.x load ELF binaries that use native FreeBSD APIs? It sounds to me as if this would merely involve adapting the Linux compatibility module for 2.2.x to do this when it saw a FreeBSD-branded ELF binary. This module could be brought in as a dependency in the port, along with any "upgrade kit" that was required. >As more and more ports get added (2100 now) that >workload increases. We're a volunteer effort and as Greg Sutter said in a >different email, sacrifices have to be made to get the best overall >quality. To keep the ports tree as good as it is requires that we not >keep a 2.2.* up to date. A tiny amount of cleverness and innovation can solve these problems. But nothing that disenfranchises loyal existing users is acceptable, EVER. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 16:18:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 809AE155CD for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:18:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 95324 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Mar 1999 00:18:18 -0000 Date: 2 Mar 1999 16:18:18 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:18:18 -0800 From: Unfurl To: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD User Groups , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Seattle FreeBSD Users Group - March Meeting Message-ID: <19990302161818.A95241@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The Seattle FreeBSD Users Group (SeaFUG) will be having it's March meeting this Sunday the 7th. The meeting will be at Varlamos Pizzaria in the U District at 6:00pm. Being that this is only our second meeting we will be focusing on the future direction of the group. Anyone with input on this matter should attend. (this means everyone) :) Meeting info can be found on the SeaFUG web site at: http://www.seafug.org/meetings.phtml If you have any questions please feel free to contact me at unfurl@dub.net. -Bill Swingle -- unfurl@dub.net - This is a munition. Fight Back! #!/bin/perl -sp0777i; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:22:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA20587; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:21:25 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:21:25 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302163944.00a1e620@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:34 PM 3/2/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: > >That said I see you maintain no ports at all > > True. I haven't been asked to. Nor would I want to, if the ports system > left users in the cold like that. Hint 1 - no one ASKS people to maintain ports. Like all of FreeBSD you volunteer to help. You could certainly volunteer some of your time to try to make an a.out ports tree that stays in lockstep w/ the STABLE tree. Second, as usual, it seems you're happy to complain but not actually willing to do the work. Good - that's the kind of volunteer we need. :-P Please go back to bitching about the GPL and how it will destroy the universe. > If it's a problem, it's a problem with the system. Compiling to two > formats should not be THAT difficult. But if it's REALLY such a big > deal for you to compile to anything but ELF, why not create a module > that lets 2.2.x load ELF binaries that use native FreeBSD APIs? It > sounds to me as if this would merely involve adapting the Linux > compatibility module for 2.2.x to do this when it saw a > FreeBSD-branded ELF binary. This module could be brought in as a > dependency in the port, along with any "upgrade kit" that was > required. It's not that it's hard to get it to do ELF _or_ a.out but to be able to do BOTH in one system. Until you actually start trying to maintain some ports and do some work in this area, or let Satoshi explain to you in simple terms WHY it's hard then it's clear we're not going anywhere. Face it - the ports tree is a moving target. If you want to be able to fix, update, or run ports that have changed or been created since 2.2.8 then move to 3.1-STABLE, otherwise... Or go find us the 200 or so volunteers to keep the 2.2.8 ports branch in lockstep w/ the STABLE branch. *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 16:31: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (danman.isdn.uiuc.edu [192.17.16.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E61EB14F7E for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:30:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 15367 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1999 00:30:17 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:30:17 -0600 From: dannyman To: Brett Glass Cc: Keith Stevenson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990302183017.A15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost> <4.1.19990302092127.03ff9da0@localhost> <99Mar2.114516est.113920@pandora.isinet.com> <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost> <19990302125540.A28002@homer.louisville.edu> <4.1.19990302130844.00ca3740@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302130844.00ca3740@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 01:09:39PM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 01:09:39PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:55 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Keith Stevenson wrote: > > >I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree here. I've done more RedHat Linux > >installs than I care to admit to, and all you need to install it over the > >internet is a pair of floppies. You write the install images on to the > >floppies, boot the first one, and then insert the second one to load the > >device drivers for most network cards. > > IIRC, you can't use PPP for Red Hat at all, though. And this is the way > most users connect to the Net. I'd expect most sane people would sooner buy the CD than do a modum install. ;) -d -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 16:39:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (danman.isdn.uiuc.edu [192.17.16.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1B2D314DDB for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:39:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 15454 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1999 00:39:30 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:39:30 -0600 From: dannyman To: Brett Glass Cc: Gregory Sutter , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990302183930.B15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <4.1.19990302142419.00adaba0@localhost> <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <19990302132052.C18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> <4.1.19990302142419.00adaba0@localhost> <19990302135454.D18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> <4.1.19990302154008.00c93c80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302154008.00c93c80@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 03:45:13PM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 03:45:13PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:54 PM 3/2/99 -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: > >We've compromised on the single-floppy install in exchange for superior > >quality of installation, and therefore, superior quality overall. A second > >floppy is not that big a compromise. > > It's a HUGE compromise, and may show an unwillingness to "think outside the > box" and innovate something better. I think it's a rotten idea. Hhrmm. I see two systems: 1) A two-floppy install that works today. 2) A touvhy-feely improvement showing thinking "outside of the box" that exists only in Brett's starry eyes. Now which one am I going to tell my roommate to use when it comes time for him to install FreeBSD? ;) -danny -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 16:44:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (danman.isdn.uiuc.edu [192.17.16.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 693C014D13 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:44:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 15519 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1999 00:44:24 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:44:24 -0600 From: dannyman To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990302184424.C15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <4.1.19990302154522.03fb3730@localhost> <4.1.19990302161355.00ad66b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302161355.00ad66b0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 04:20:49PM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 04:20:49PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Yes, 2.2.6 is less than a year old, so there SHOULD be a ports tree for it. > There's nothing more frustrating than running /stand/sysinstall to grab a port > and discovering that the ports for your version are gone only a few months > after you installed. And you know why so few people use those "upgrade [...] Ugh, that's when you go to the bloody config screen and change your RELEASE to 2.2.8. Yes, I think this could be more intuitive, but it works well enough right now. ;) -danny -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:18:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1804114DB2 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:18:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA06361; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:17:52 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302181055.00ad67a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:14:14 -0700 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990302163944.00a1e620@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 05:21 PM 3/2/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >Hint 1 - no one ASKS people to maintain ports. Like all of FreeBSD you >volunteer to help. I've volunteered on several occasions and did not meet with a warm response. >You could certainly volunteer some of your time to try >to make an a.out ports tree that stays in lockstep w/ the STABLE tree. Again, you're not being creatve or innovative here. Again, why not just adapt the Linux emulator to bring in FreeBSD ELFs? >It's not that it's hard to get it to do ELF _or_ a.out but to be able to >do BOTH in one system. Until you actually start trying to maintain some >ports and do some work in this area, or let Satoshi explain to you in >simple terms WHY it's hard then it's clear we're not going anywhere. Then eliminate the need for that. Again, you're not "thinking outside the box." I think it requires a certain level of maturity to think in terms of the users who want a stable, tested version rather than the bleeding edge and accommodate them. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:18:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B437714D81 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:18:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA06368; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:17:55 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302181700.00c56d10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:17:44 -0700 To: dannyman From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990302184424.C15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <4.1.19990302161355.00ad66b0@localhost> <4.1.19990302154522.03fb3730@localhost> <4.1.19990302161355.00ad66b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:44 PM 3/2/99 -0600, dannyman wrote: >Ugh, that's when you go to the bloody config screen and change your RELEASE to >2.2.8. And find out that the port is old and buggy because they're only maintaining things in ELF now and you can't run FreeBSD ELFs. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:18:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21DE14DA3 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:18:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA06364; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:17:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302181452.00c541f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:16:18 -0700 To: dannyman From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: Gregory Sutter , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990302183930.B15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <4.1.19990302154008.00c93c80@localhost> <4.1.19990302142419.00adaba0@localhost> <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <19990302132052.C18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> <4.1.19990302142419.00adaba0@localhost> <19990302135454.D18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> <4.1.19990302154008.00c93c80@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 06:39 PM 3/2/99 -0600, dannyman wrote: >I see two systems: > >1) A two-floppy install that works today. > >2) A touvhy-feely improvement showing thinking "outside of the box" that >exists only in Brett's starry eyes. Gee, I guess that any desirable goal that hasn't actually been realized is just "touchy-feely" and "exists only in Brett's starry eyes" and therefore isn't worth considering. Yeah, right. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:28:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (danman.isdn.uiuc.edu [192.17.16.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1D85A14E72 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:27:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 15741 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1999 01:27:29 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:27:29 -0600 From: dannyman To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990302192729.D15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <4.1.19990302161355.00ad66b0@localhost> <4.1.19990302154522.03fb3730@localhost> <19990302184424.C15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <4.1.19990302181700.00c56d10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302181700.00c56d10@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 06:17:44PM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 06:17:44PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:44 PM 3/2/99 -0600, dannyman wrote: > > >Ugh, that's when you go to the bloody config screen and change your RELEASE > >to 2.2.8. > > And find out that the port is old and buggy because they're only maintaining > things in ELF now and you can't run FreeBSD ELFs. Uhhhh, no ... if you try to install something for 2.2.8, you're not going to get any ELFs. That's why we have -RELEASE versions. If you can't get the 2.2.6 ports dist, then the 2.2.8 ports dist should work just fine. This point was made earlier in the thread, though I don't know why I had bothered to read that far in ... -danny -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:28:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-47.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E34EC14E79 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:27:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA16967; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:26:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:26:52 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: dannyman Cc: Brett Glass , Keith Stevenson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <19990302183017.A15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, dannyman wrote: > I'd expect most sane people would sooner buy the CD than do a modum install. > ;) *shrug* I've done like 11 ftp installs over my trusty 33.6 modem. And that's what actually got me started with fbsd as opposed to Linux. I didn't have space to download then install on the ThinkPad I was using, so I did an ftp install of 2.2.2... sure it had to fit into 70 megs.. but it was a good place to start (even though it did reboot when something segfaulted). - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:30: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (danman.isdn.uiuc.edu [192.17.16.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9534014CFB for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:29:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 15774 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1999 01:29:45 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:29:45 -0600 From: dannyman To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Brett Glass , Keith Stevenson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990302192945.E15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <19990302183017.A15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Alex Zepeda on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 05:26:52PM -0800 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 05:26:52PM -0800, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, dannyman wrote: > > > I'd expect most sane people would sooner buy the CD than do a modum > > install. ;) > > *shrug* > > I've done like 11 ftp installs over my trusty 33.6 modem. And that's what [...] ``FreeBSD: The Power to Serve the Insane'' -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:36:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D4C14ED6 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:35:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id KAA09401; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:35:41 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DC8D70.B7780F9F@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:16:32 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > Well, we all know that Jordan worked long and hard on the install > code and did all sorts of tricks to keep it to one floppy. > Nonetheless, I think that this is an important selling point. > Also, from a technical standpoint, there's no reason why a single > floppy can't reach out to the installation media and bring in any > code that won't fit. This may well be an opportunity to leapfrog > Linux once again. True enough. As the boot disks move to a PicoBSD-based solution, and support for kld increases, it might be viable for network installs (given the widespread boot capability of cd-roms nowadays, this might not have much demand on cd-rom installs). But people will have to work to make it happen. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:36:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7572414EDE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:35:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id KAA09392; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:35:35 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DC8BE7.246DD3BA@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:09:59 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <99Mar2.114516est.113920@pandora.isinet.com> <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > Well, as I understand it, FreeBSD 3.x is still not what's > recommended for production applications. (I'm installing 2.2.8 on > all of the productions machines I bring up.) So does this count? 3.1-RELEASE/3.1-STABLE is what is recommended for new installations on production machines. 2.2.x, right now, is probably kind of how you feel about 2.1.x. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:36:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CBF114ED7 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:35:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id KAA09382; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:35:28 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DC8B20.A60848E7@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:06:40 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dannyman Cc: Brett Glass , Keith Stevenson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost> <4.1.19990302092127.03ff9da0@localhost> <99Mar2.114516est.113920@pandora.isinet.com> <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost> <19990302125540.A28002@homer.louisville.edu> <4.1.19990302130844.00ca3740@localhost> <19990302183017.A15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG dannyman wrote: > > I'd expect most sane people would sooner buy the CD than do a modum install. > ;) There are only -RELEASE and occasional current snapshots available for sale. If you want to go directly to -current, or directly to -stable, or if you leave someplace where cd-roms can take months to arrive from the US with no local alternative (and there are a LOT of places like that), or if you just can't wait to get FreeBSD installed (like me when I came back to work on the loader :), a modem install beats the crap out of a CD install. :-) So what, if it takes a few hours to do a full install (including sources)? Flat fees are common, so it is not going to cost you anything more, and you can always leave it installed while you go out/sleep/whatever. An FTP install by modem is not insane by any means at all. Perhaps your judgment might be skewed by easy availability (and fast delivery) of the cds? That's not so common around the world... -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:36:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBA014E80 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:36:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id KAA09408; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:35:43 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DC8F1A.6B7C3EDC@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:23:38 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <4.1.19990302154522.03fb3730@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > Sorry, but recent releases that are used in existing mission critical systems > are NOT "dead limbs" to be sawn off within only a couple of months of > release. I can see the Linuxoids ranting now: "See? The FreeBSD team doesn't > even provide ports for a release that's less than 6 months old! So much > for their 'great ports collection.' That's the kind of support you'll get if > you use FreeBSD." I seem to recall that 2.2.8-RELEASE, which, mind you, was released *after* 3.0-RELEASE, was announced to be the last 2.2.x-RELEASE. If people didn't get a clue from that... -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:38:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-47.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E37F15096 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:38:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA17013; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:38:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:38:20 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: dannyman Cc: Brett Glass , Keith Stevenson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <19990302192945.E15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, dannyman wrote: > ``FreeBSD: The Power to Serve the Insane'' ``FreeBSD: The Power to Serve.. those challenged by reality'' - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:42:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (danman.isdn.uiuc.edu [192.17.16.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 06DB914E30 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:42:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 15876 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1999 01:42:15 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:42:15 -0600 From: dannyman To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Brett Glass , Keith Stevenson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990302194215.F15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost> <4.1.19990302092127.03ff9da0@localhost> <99Mar2.114516est.113920@pandora.isinet.com> <4.1.19990302095928.00b3d4c0@localhost> <19990302125540.A28002@homer.louisville.edu> <4.1.19990302130844.00ca3740@localhost> <19990302183017.A15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <36DC8B20.A60848E7@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <36DC8B20.A60848E7@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:06:40AM +0900 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:06:40AM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > dannyman wrote: > > > > I'd expect most sane people would sooner buy the CD than do a modum install. > > ;) [... a catalog of great points ...] > An FTP install by modem is not insane by any means at all. > > Perhaps your judgment might be skewed by easy availability (and fast > delivery) of the cds? That's not so common around the world... Actually, I'm just being a tease. I've always had high-speed access available to me and have sometimes wanted to be able to brag about having done a modem install. I think the PPP support is a great thing that definately gives FreeBSd an edge. Still, it is slightly silly to download your OS via modem, even if the alternatives may be even sillier. I personally rspect those who perservere through this silliness. :) -danny -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:52:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A606D14CE0 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:52:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA06708; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:52:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302183847.00a22f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:40:16 -0700 To: dannyman From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990302192729.D15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <4.1.19990302181700.00c56d10@localhost> <4.1.19990302161355.00ad66b0@localhost> <4.1.19990302154522.03fb3730@localhost> <19990302184424.C15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <4.1.19990302181700.00c56d10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 07:27 PM 3/2/99 -0600, dannyman wrote: >Uhhhh, no ... if you try to install something for 2.2.8, you're not going to >get any ELFs. That's why we have -RELEASE versions. True. But since the newest versions of the ports are all in ELF format, what you'll get will be old. Again, there ought to be a way to get the most up-to-date ports for any RELEASE version that's up to a year old. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:52:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C7314CE0 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:52:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA06713; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:52:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302184058.00c4a1c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:46:17 -0700 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36DC8BE7.246DD3BA@newsguy.com> References: <99Mar2.114516est.113920@pandora.isinet.com> <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:09 AM 3/3/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >3.1-RELEASE/3.1-STABLE is what is recommended for new installations >on production machines. > >2.2.x, right now, is probably kind of how you feel about 2.1.x. :-) If I upgrade machines to 3.1-RELEASE, I know I'll have major work to do rewriting maintenance scripts, etc. because things like the utmp format have changed. This means downtime for the client. Also, since 3.0-RELEASE was explicitly NOT for production machines, the earliest version I will install on ANY production machine will be 3.2-RELEASE (and only then with special permission from the client, because our general policy is to wait for the third "real" release of anything before relying on it for mission-critical functions). Sorry to sound so utterly conservative, but that's 'cause we are. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:52:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC2F14E38 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:52:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA06717; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:52:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302184645.00c56630@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:48:36 -0700 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36DC8D70.B7780F9F@newsguy.com> References: <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:16 AM 3/3/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: >> >> Well, we all know that Jordan worked long and hard on the install >> code and did all sorts of tricks to keep it to one floppy. >> Nonetheless, I think that this is an important selling point. >> Also, from a technical standpoint, there's no reason why a single >> floppy can't reach out to the installation media and bring in any >> code that won't fit. This may well be an opportunity to leapfrog >> Linux once again. > >True enough. As the boot disks move to a PicoBSD-based solution, and >support for kld increases, it might be viable for network installs >(given the widespread boot capability of cd-roms nowadays, this >might not have much demand on cd-rom installs). > >But people will have to work to make it happen. It has so many advantages that those now working on the install should jump at the idea. It makes their lives easier, as they can generate one boot disk that covers LOTS of releases. Once it works, they don't have to change it except to add new NIC drivers now and then. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:52:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5599714E6B for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:52:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA06721; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:52:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302184855.00c4f9f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 18:50:47 -0700 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36DC8F1A.6B7C3EDC@newsguy.com> References: <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <4.1.19990302154522.03fb3730@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 10:23 AM 3/3/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >I seem to recall that 2.2.8-RELEASE, which, mind you, was released >*after* 3.0-RELEASE, was announced to be the last 2.2.x-RELEASE. If >people didn't get a clue from that... They got a clue. And that clue was that they should stick with it until 3.x had settled, with the expectation that the ports would be maintained and patches would be available for any really egregious bugs or security holes. It ought to be the culmination of all the work done up to that point -- not abandoned, but considered to be a "golden" release that could be used for awhile. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 17:54:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (danman.isdn.uiuc.edu [192.17.16.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 504441511B for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:54:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 15969 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1999 01:54:38 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:54:38 -0600 From: dannyman To: Alex Zepeda Cc: Brett Glass , Keith Stevenson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990302195438.G15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <19990302192945.E15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Alex Zepeda on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 05:38:20PM -0800 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 05:38:20PM -0800, Alex Zepeda wrote: > On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, dannyman wrote: > > > ``FreeBSD: The Power to Serve the Insane'' > > ``FreeBSD: The Power to Serve.. those challenged by reality'' D00D!!!! We need an animated gif: Chuckie blinks his eyes and then looks down to notice a mushroom in front of him. He leans his trident down, scoops up the mushroom, and pops it into his mouth. These cool psychedelic colors start forming in his eyes, and they ooze out of his head to cover the entire area, then he starts flying through an enchanted land filled with Giant penguins drinking Guinness, and he lands atop this platform surrounded by fire, dressed in full medieval armour, and does battle with this huge green fire-breathing dragon who looks a lot like Bill Gates. He whips out a trident from behind his back, stabbing the dragon in the throat. The dragon dies and he tosses it over his shoulder and into the fiery lava below, creating big wonderful flames, steam and smoke. He looks around again and sees himself from above, only this time there's several platforms just out of his hopping distance. Kinda like some old Mario Bros game. He aims his trident and boom, the fiery put becomes a shiny green motherboard and the platforms are transformed into shiny Multi-symmetric processors, and a bunch of those Intel bunny people come out and start doing a square-dance around him to a modern techno version of dueling banjos. But Chuckie's trippin' - he puts a finger to his temple and all of a sudden the bunnies start dancing really well, to an impressively powerful sounding Full Symphony Orchestra. Flowers start falling from the sky and the sun sets in a beautifully breathtaking array of colors. The view zooms out, and Chuckie leaps about and resumes his traditional stance, trident in hand, as the beautiful colors of the shroom-induced sunset fade behind him, and the pretty colors fade from his eyes, and he looks a little bloodshot. Of course, this gif must be less than 800k in size. Any takers? -danny -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 18: 4:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (danman.isdn.uiuc.edu [192.17.16.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 69D9714CE0 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:04:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 16051 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1999 02:04:12 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:04:12 -0600 From: dannyman To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990302200412.H15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <4.1.19990302181700.00c56d10@localhost> <4.1.19990302161355.00ad66b0@localhost> <4.1.19990302154522.03fb3730@localhost> <19990302184424.C15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <4.1.19990302181700.00c56d10@localhost> <19990302192729.D15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <4.1.19990302183847.00a22f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302183847.00a22f00@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 06:40:16PM -0700 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 06:40:16PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 07:27 PM 3/2/99 -0600, dannyman wrote: > > >Uhhhh, no ... if you try to install something for 2.2.8, you're not going to > >get any ELFs. That's why we have -RELEASE versions. > > True. But since the newest versions of the ports are all in ELF format, > what you'll get will be old. Awww damn, you mean if I'm running an older version of the OS, only older versions of the ports are going to be supplied?!? Gosh dang! I recently had the job of admining a shell server that's still running 2.1.x era. We eventually just broke the ports tree because we're just as well off installing stuff the hard way. It really wasn't that bad, and I was appreciative that so many current ports still functioned when I *did* try to get them built. I drive a 1972 Super Beetle. It isn't as easy to find parts or knowledgeable service. If you're running the old thing, you're going to have to work a little harder to find the older accessories that work. > Again, there ought to be a way to get the most up-to-date ports for any > RELEASE version that's up to a year old. Then by all means, please step up and make it so! You could be to 2.2.6 users what Rocky Mountain Motorworks is to old Volkswagen owners. If you're willing to do the work and find the needed volunteers to help you ports ports to older ports trees, then I'm sure you'll have FreeBSd's blessing and tacit support. Otherwise, you've been told we don't have the resources, and unless you can contribute the resources, or engineer a better way, you'd serve us all best if you stopped whining. -danny -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 18: 8:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A965414ED7 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:08:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA19540; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:08:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd019414; Tue Mar 2 19:08:24 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01172; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:08:22 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903030208.TAA01172@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart To: gsutter@pobox.com (Gregory Sutter) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:08:22 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, billf@chc-chimes.com, aturoff@isinet.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990302132052.C18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> from "Gregory Sutter" at Mar 2, 99 01:20:52 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, Brett, if you can't fit a generic kernel and networking code on > the same disk, then you can't reach out to your installation media in > the first place. Having two floppies is far far better than having > different floppies for different types of installations (e.g. the > network install floppies, the cdrom install floppy, the nullmodem > install floppy (ouch), etc.). KLD's for minority hardware on the seperate disk! KLD's for minority hardware on the seperate disk! "Please insert additional driver disks and hit return, or just hit return to start the installation" 1) Keep the MSDOS VFS on the "single install floppy". 2) Make any "additional drivers" disk MS-DOS format. 3) Make it look in the DOS subdirectory "FreeBSD". 4) Give the drivers to the vendors of hardware so that they can ship official FreeBSD drivers for the hardware on their DOS driver disks, even if their drivers are already in the kernel on the "single install floppy", since their hardware may become minority later. 5) Get vendors to print "Includes drivers for FreeBSD" on the box. 6) Help FreeBSD rule the world. 7) Pick up dry cleaning. 8) Kill Dilbert. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 18:10:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAE9114C1D for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:10:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id LAA13375; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:10:26 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DC99B9.1E2BB9A@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 11:08:57 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Harold Gutch Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <36DC09E3.2F959909@thuntek.net> <19990302184800.B4386@foobar.franken.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Harold Gutch wrote: > > Is there some real good comparism of all the three, like in what > case you might lose data with each of the three possibilities > (according to that posting, there's a small chance of data-loss > with synchronous writes, so I guess that it's the same for > softupdates, too) and (rough) speed-comparisms of them ? Well, I think it goes down like this: There are two kinds of write: metadata writes and data writes. Data is the information that goes inside the files. Metadata concerns the structure of the filesystem. Data loss implies having data supposedly written being lost in case of panic/power failure/etc. As the data would be lost anyway, this only matters in case the application depends on it to ensure data consistency. If it does, it ought to be using fsync(), so, again, it wouldn't matter. Metadata loss implies having metadata supposedly written being lost. As a result, you could have files pointing to unallocated data, allocated data not being pointed by files, etc. Now, remember that it is impossible to *prevent* any kind data loss through the use of any algorithms. If some kind of data is bound to be written and the system crashes right before the write is requested, there is simply no way you could have prevented loosing that information, right? What is important, then, is how much damage is done. As I understand, FreeBSD's ufs have three "sync" states. Normal mount, async and sync. And here are the trade-offs: Sync mount: data and metadata are written immediately. Whoever requested the write is blocked until the data is safely on the disk (or maybe unsafely on the disk cache, actually -- but it doesn't pay to go into this here). In case of crash, you can have one level of metadata loss. For example, you could have a directory created but with nothing pointing to it, or unreferenced allocated data. This is a *recoverable* state, because you never got so screwed up that your file system gets completely hosed. Normal mount: data is written asynchronously, metadata is written synchronously. This way, you still can get into an inconsistent data state, but your metadata loss is still restricted to one level. Async mount: everything is written asynchronously. This means that the filesystem can get into a state so inconsistent that you will be unable to recover it except through a very arduous manual procedure. Ok, now, for softupdates. Softupdates is similar to an async mount, with one huge difference. The data is written to the disk in an *ordered* way. This order is chosen so that the consistency of the filesystem structure is always equivalent to that of sync mounts. Actually, it is better, since the sync mount doesn't actually order the writes to garantee the level of consistency that softupdates does. This gives you async speed (almost) with sync safety (a little better). In fact, because of the way softupdate works, in some scenarios you get performance *better* than async mount, because softupdates coalesces metadata writes. So, instead of writing some piece of metadata to create four inodes by writting the same block four times, it could turn these four writes into a single one. Does that sound too good to be true? Sorry, we can't do anything about it. "Unfortunately," it is that good, believe it or not. :-) So, you ask, why is everybody still running the other kinds of mounts? Well, for one, there is the license. Softupdates is not under a BSD license. Also, there are some very specific cases where async mounts are superior. Aside from that... beats me! :-) AFAIK, everyone who knows about softupdates and doesn't have problems with the license is running it. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 18:12:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB1814ED7 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:11:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA26867; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:41:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd026821; Tue Mar 2 19:41:30 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA01293; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:10:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903030210.TAA01293@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) To: logix@foobar.franken.de (Harold Gutch) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:10:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dwilde1@thuntek.net, kheuer@gwdu60.gwdg.de, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990302184800.B4386@foobar.franken.de> from "Harold Gutch" at Mar 2, 99 06:48:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I saw a posting by Martin Cracauer to a German BSD-newsgroup a > couple of days ago, which can be summed up to "normal synchronous > writes (the 'classic' FreeBSD thing) are slow, asynchronous > writes (what Linux does) are dangerous - softupdates are a little > slower than asynchronous writes, but ensure the reliability of > synchronous writes. > > Is there some real good comparism of all the three, like in what > case you might lose data with each of the three possibilities > (according to that posting, there's a small chance of data-loss > with synchronous writes, so I guess that it's the same for > softupdates, too) and (rough) speed-comparisms of them ? http://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/papers/CSE-TR-254-95/ Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 18:18:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8240414CF7 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:18:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-080.thuntek.net [207.66.52.80]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id TAA01238; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:18:08 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DCA981.5FA11504@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 19:16:17 -0800 From: Don Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dannyman Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <19990302192945.E15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <19990302195438.G15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If I supply the GIF, will you supply the shrooms that can give me that trip? Especially the part about forking Billy boy. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 18:26:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96B9814CEB for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:25:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA06996; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:24:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302191923.00b4e690@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 19:20:26 -0700 To: dannyman From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990302200412.H15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <4.1.19990302183847.00a22f00@localhost> <4.1.19990302181700.00c56d10@localhost> <4.1.19990302161355.00ad66b0@localhost> <4.1.19990302154522.03fb3730@localhost> <19990302184424.C15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <4.1.19990302181700.00c56d10@localhost> <19990302192729.D15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <4.1.19990302183847.00a22f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:04 PM 3/2/99 -0600, dannyman wrote: >> Again, there ought to be a way to get the most up-to-date ports for any >> RELEASE version that's up to a year old. > >Then by all means, please step up and make it so! You could be to 2.2.6 users >what Rocky Mountain Motorworks is to old Volkswagen owners. If you're willing >to do the work and find the needed volunteers to help you ports ports to older >ports trees, then I'm sure you'll have FreeBSd's blessing and tacit support. > >Otherwise, you've been told we don't have the resources, And I'm telling you that you don't NEED special resources if you just use your noggin (and avoid those funny 'shrooms you mentioned in your posting earlier ;-). --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 18:31:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (danman.isdn.uiuc.edu [192.17.16.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7663114E29 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:31:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 16238 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1999 02:30:51 -0000 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:30:51 -0600 From: dannyman To: Don Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990302203051.J15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <19990302192945.E15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <19990302195438.G15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <36DCA981.5FA11504@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <36DCA981.5FA11504@thuntek.net>; from Don Wilde on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 07:16:17PM -0800 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 07:16:17PM -0800, Don Wilde wrote: > If I supply the GIF, will you supply the shrooms that can give me that > trip? Especially the part about forking Billy boy. Only if I can get credit for it on the "FreeBSD Contributors" web page. :) -danny -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 18:58:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17BB914E5E for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:58:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id LAA18453; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:58:23 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DCA441.A517C9F5@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 11:53:53 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Gregory Sutter , brett@lariat.org, billf@chc-chimes.com, aturoff@isinet.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <199903030208.TAA01172@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > KLD's for minority hardware on the seperate disk! > KLD's for minority hardware on the seperate disk! :-) > "Please insert additional driver disks and hit return, > or just hit return to start the installation" In fact, loader can do that with it even before booting the kernel (if, for some reason, there is need for the driver to be present at boot time). And since loader uses BIOS... > 7) Pick up dry cleaning. > > 8) Kill Dilbert. I don't see how that is going to help us get back to one-disk installs, though. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 19:23:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 937D414E72 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:22:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA21698; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:21:55 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:21:55 -0700 (MST) From: Brett Taylor To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302181055.00ad67a0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:21 PM 3/2/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: > >Hint 1 - no one ASKS people to maintain ports. Like all of FreeBSD > >you volunteer to help. > > I've volunteered on several occasions and did not meet with a warm > response. What the hell do you need a response for?! No one ASKED me to maintain the ports I maintain - I just do it. It's pretty simple Brett. Find yourself a piece of software that hasn't been ported. Now make a port of it - inside the Makefile put: MAINTAINER= brett@lariat.org And there you go - you're a port maintainer. If this is that difficult to comprehend you shouldn't be maintaining ports anyway. Better yet, go through the tree and find ports that don't have a maintainer and make yourself its caretaker. There are plenty that don't have one (they'll have MAINTAINER= ports@freebsd.org). If you're talking about being a committer I can see why they didn't give you the commit privileges - you haven't even maintained a port, why would they trust you to have commit privileges on them? > > It's not that it's hard to get it to do ELF _or_ a.out but to be able > > to do BOTH in one system. Until you actually start trying to > > maintain some ports and do some work in this area, or let Satoshi > > explain to you in simple terms WHY it's hard then it's clear we're > > not going anywhere. > Then eliminate the need for that. Again, you're not "thinking outside > the box." We DID eliminate the need to do both. FreeBSD is now ELF - deal w/ it. If you don't think 3.1 is stable then deal w/ the fact that new ports are not going to be available to you. > Again, you're not being creatve or innovative here. Again, why not > just adapt the Linux emulator to bring in FreeBSD ELFs? If you think it's so easy to pull in FreeBSD ELF apps as is done for the Linux stuff then do it. Back up all these "this should be done" comments w/ real action instead of talk and maybe then people would listen to you. > I think it requires a certain level of maturity to think in terms of > the users who want a stable, tested version rather than the bleeding > edge and accommodate them. The ports track STABLE. 3.* is the new STABLE branch. It was tested by lots of people when it was -CURRENT. It's tested by lots of people now. My machine has been up since I converted it to -CURRENT (back when it was 3.0) in December. I've run my numerical code to look at quantum mechanical effects on black holes on it. I've made world -j4 many times. It's stable. Have I tested everything? Certainly not - that's why it was tested as -CURRENT before it went to STABLE. If you don't like it don't run it, but don't complain when the latest version of Gimp or something else appears and it won't build on your 2.2 system. Finally, it'd be nice if you showed some maturity and stopped whining about the GPL constantly. I'm done w/ this as I might as well be talking to a fence post. Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 19:41:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-4.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61F6514E5E for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:40:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA17405; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:39:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:39:59 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: Brett Taylor Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > > What the hell do you need a response for?! To make sure you're not duplicating or otherwise clobbering someone else's work. An absent response is not a good thing, warm fuzzies are always nice if someone is expected/going to go out of their way to maintain something. Just ask the Qt port maintainer ;) > And there you go - you're a port maintainer. If this is that difficult to > comprehend you shouldn't be maintaining ports anyway. Better yet, go > through the tree and find ports that don't have a maintainer and make > yourself its caretaker. There are plenty that don't have one (they'll > have MAINTAINER= ports@freebsd.org). Ah, and I was beginning to wonder why I see so many "FreeBSD and MacOS users are more elitest than any other group of people" rants on /. . > We DID eliminate the need to do both. FreeBSD is now ELF - deal w/ it. > If you don't think 3.1 is stable then deal w/ the fact that new ports are > not going to be available to you. Yes, but you've still got 2.2.x out there. Keep in mind 2.2.8 is newer than 3.0, and there's likely quite a few people who are still using 2.2.x. Perhaps by 3.2 not supporting 2.2-STABLE will be completely worth while. > > Again, you're not being creatve or innovative here. Again, why not > > just adapt the Linux emulator to bring in FreeBSD ELFs? And then you roll the 3.0 kernel with all its new syscalls and soforth into a 2.2.x kernel. Not a good idea. > Finally, it'd be nice if you showed some maturity and stopped whining > about the GPL constantly. > I'm done w/ this as I might as well be talking to a fence post. That can be arranged, and it comes with a complimentary straight jacket. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 20: 5:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from m4.stox.sa.enteract.com (stox.sa.enteract.com [207.229.132.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4AC14E30 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:05:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@stox.sa.enteract.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.stox.sa.enteract.com [127.0.0.1]) by m4.stox.sa.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA00617; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:05:15 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:05:15 -0600 (CST) From: "Kenneth P. Stox" Reply-To: stox@enteract.com To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <199903030208.TAA01172@usr04.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > 6) Help FreeBSD rule the world. > > 8) Kill Dilbert. Best two ideas Terry has had yet! In that order, I hope. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 20:15:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5057E14CAF for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:15:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA07773; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:15:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302210310.009fccf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 21:15:00 -0700 To: Brett Taylor From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990302181055.00ad67a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:21 PM 3/2/99 -0700, Brett Taylor wrote: >What the hell do you need a response for?! No one ASKED me to maintain >the ports I maintain - I just do it. It's pretty simple Brett. Find >yourself a piece of software that hasn't been ported. Now make a port of >it - inside the Makefile put: > > MAINTAINER= brett@lariat.org In other words, just grab it? In the past, when I've asked to do such things, TPTB have basically shooed me away. >If you're talking about being a committer I can see why they didn't give >you the commit privileges - I haven't even ASKED for commit privileges. I've asked to work on things such as hardware compatibility, workarounds for rogue hardware, etc. The people who were in charge of those and related areas considered me to be trespassing on their turf and told me, perhaps not in so many words, to go take a hike. >> > It's not that it's hard to get it to do ELF _or_ a.out but to be able >> > to do BOTH in one system. Until you actually start trying to >> > maintain some ports and do some work in this area, or let Satoshi >> > explain to you in simple terms WHY it's hard then it's clear we're >> > not going anywhere. > >> Then eliminate the need for that. Again, you're not "thinking outside >> the box." > >We DID eliminate the need to do both. FreeBSD is now ELF - deal w/ it. Sorry, I'm running 2.2.8, which was released less than 90 days ago, and it's not ELF. Deal with it. >If you don't think 3.1 is stable then deal w/ the fact that new ports are >not going to be available to you. Bzzzzt -- wrong answer. Not just for me, but for users in general. You don't just drop support for a recently released product and try to force an upgrade to a version that's only POSSIBLY the first stable one in its branch. That's not only dumb, it's inconsiderate. >If you think it's so easy to pull in FreeBSD ELF apps as is done for the >Linux stuff then do it. Back up all these "this should be done" comments >w/ real action instead of talk and maybe then people would listen to you. Again, in the past, when I've attempted to work on code that's someone's "territory" I've been told to get lost. So, as I've now learned, the appropriate thing to do is to post a message that the person who maintains that code is likely to find and read. That's what I've done. >> I think it requires a certain level of maturity to think in terms of >> the users who want a stable, tested version rather than the bleeding >> edge and accommodate them. > >The ports track STABLE. 3.* is the new STABLE branch. Too new to be considered for mission critical servers, I'm afraid. Sorry, but I only ONCE made the mistake of jumping to a new version too quickly. Never again. You can do that on your personal machine; I can't do that on servers on which hundreds of users rely. >Finally, it'd be nice if you showed some maturity and stopped whining >about the GPL constantly. Funny how the ignorant, the clueless, and the apathetic tend to brand others' concerns as "whines." >I'm done w/ this as I might as well be talking to a fence post. In other words, I might have a point, but rather than admit that you're leaving. Fine. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 20:54:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 36B3A14DD4 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:54:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 97769 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Mar 1999 04:54:01 -0000 Date: 2 Mar 1999 20:54:00 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:54:00 -0800 From: Unfurl To: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: Active advocacy Message-ID: <19990302205400.A97649@dub.net> References: <199903030411.XAA00446@y.dyson.net> <36DCBBC9.CB17CC87@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36DCBBC9.CB17CC87@uswest.net>; from Nocturne on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 08:34:17PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 08:34:17PM -0800, Nocturne wrote: > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > FYI, my Dad just asked about Linux, and I explained that > > it was like FreeBSD (that I used to work on), and had to > > suggest that since his friends are most likely going to > > run Linux, that he might consider it also. This sickened > > me, but makes the Linux decision almost like the Windows > > decision of past days. I explained the license issue to > > him, and he agrees that GPL is a mess -- but I still claim > > that Linux is still a better choice for him :-(. FreeBSD > > *should* have been a better choice... > > You should have recommended FreeBSD, and when his friends start > asking, try to get them to switch. Your actions follow suit > with the lack of advocacy you're complaining about. Sheeple > logic doesn't work. > > In this past week I've gotten two people to try FreeBSD, one is > a newbie to computing (a mind untarnished by MS BS) and the other > is a long time Linux user who's reasons for not switching were > so that he could use software not written for FreeBSD, but I knew > to work through the emulator. They've both read the handbook and > they've both ordered CDs from WC. I even had, with their permission, > majordomo send them help info and auth requests to be added to > -newbies. > > (I think this should also go to -advocacy, but I'm not going to > cross post unless people think I should.) I agree with this attitude. Advocacy really needs to start on a person to person basis. It needs to start with the people you know personally that might be persueded to try FreeBSD. I work in a Solaris shop but when I gave out 7 copies of old 2.2.6 disk sets what OS do you think they all switched to at home? FreeBSD of course. They didnt know that some non-commercial unix could be so cool because no one had been around to tell them about it.. Most of the time it just takes a bit of personal nudging to get someone to try FreeBSD. The average Linux user is most likely not going to reach out and try it on his/her own. Two years ago I became convinced that the best way to do this was to start a local users group. Not only does it create a group of *local* ppl that can help each other hands-on, but it also starts a network of people that bring others into the group Two years ago I lived in Tucson,AZ. After a few newsgroup posts and a meeting or two we had a really great group going. Today they have over 130 members. In January, after moving to Seattle, WA I posted a request to various newsgroups and mailing lists to see if there was any interest in a Seattle area users group. Now, two months later, the group is getting ready for it's second meeting and has 25 people on the mailing list. Some of these people are newbies that are getting their "mother's milk" from others on the list. Some of them might have given up without that initial boost. I'm rambling. All I really have to say is "start small", don't wait for someone to come up with some grand advocacy scheme, do it yourself on a level that you are capable of doing it on: LOCALLY. my .10 -Bill Swingle (I think it should go to -advocacy too so I will cross post it :) ) -- unfurl@dub.net - This is a munition. Fight Back! #!/bin/perl -sp0777i; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:56:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA39330; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:56:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Mar 1999 13:48:13 MST." <4.1.19990302134418.00a12530@localhost> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:56:06 -0800 Message-ID: <39326.920436966@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, we all know that Jordan worked long and hard on the install > code and did all sorts of tricks to keep it to one floppy. Anyone wishing to try some more tricks of their own are welcome to give it a shot and send me the results. I'm all out of tricks on this one or, to put it more accurately, I'm out of patience on looking for them. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 21: 0:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA96C14EDE for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:59:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA39360; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:59:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Brett Glass , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Mar 1999 13:54:54 PST." <19990302135454.D18602@orcrist.mediacity.com> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:59:11 -0800 Message-ID: <39356.920437151@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Can I just note for a second here that we used a 2 floppy install from the very beginning (boot.flp and root.flp) and only managed to go to one for a comparatively short segment of the project's overall timeline? It was a nifty trick, but it just ran out of steam. Most "fans" of boot.flp don't even realize that it was actually crippled somewhat severely for many types of machines there for some time, but I was sneaky enough in my selection of things to "unofficially unsupport" (for the purposes of installation, anyway) that few people complained much less caught on. I'm very happy to be using GENERIC (modulo that stuff which is still truly unnecessary for an installation) again. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 21: 6:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B08514E4B for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:06:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA39396; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:06:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , Bill Fumerola , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Mar 1999 16:55:20 MST." <4.1.19990302163944.00a1e620@localhost> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 21:06:02 -0800 Message-ID: <39392.920437562@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG People who want to run 2.2.8 should install it from CDROM and Be Happy. If they want distfiles, most if not all are on the CD (or still scattered around the net). If they want packages, they're there too. Since, as you yourself note, most people wouldn't know a CVSup from their left elbow, having their /usr/ports suddenly change is also not an issue. They can continue to use the 2.2.8 ports collection as it was at 2.2.8-RELEASE time with a high degree of success (which, with n thousand ports, is about the best stats you can ever hope for) and that's all there is to it. Enough said on this topic I think! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 21: 9:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A36D14BEC for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:09:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA39416; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:09:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: dannyman , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Mar 1999 19:20:26 MST." <4.1.19990302191923.00b4e690@localhost> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 21:09:43 -0800 Message-ID: <39412.920437783@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Can we please stop arguing about this now? It passed into the realm of "argument for argument's sake" about 10 iterations ago and I no longer wish to see anything from Brett Glass on this topic. He's said his 50,000 words and should know that even for a journalist, that's probably just too damn much on the topic and it's time to shut the hell up. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 21:34:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.dyn.ml.org (pm3-18.ppp.wenet.net [206.15.85.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C42B214E8B for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:33:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Received: from localhost (garbanzo@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.dyn.ml.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA82283 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:33:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garbanzo@hooked.net) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:33:26 -0800 (PST) From: Alex Zepeda To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD in print! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG As I arrived home today, I noticed a copy of the latest MicroTimes and Computer Currents on the counter. Thanks Dad, but no thanks; knowing that both were somewhat "trendy" mags. Both featured a lot on Windows, Mac, and MT did some OS/2 and Unix stuff but I hadn't seen much before. Flipping thru the 'Currents revealed nothing interesting, flipping to the Letters from the Editor of MT however.. I came across what seemed like a full page (MT is at least legal size paper, 3 of 4 columns used) letter to the editor. I haven't read the whole article but the opening paragraph read: Linux..You're Not Alone Dear Editor, I'm writing this because I was so appalled that someone could write your fine magazine and come off like a "free software supporter" yet only mention _one_ free operating system. I'm here to let Matt Lewis know that there are a lot more free UNIXs out there on the Internet, Linux is not the only one. In scanning the page I saw 70s, KDE, CSRG, BSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD, Hurt, and of course FreeBSD ("one of the most popular of the free BSD based systems"..."FreeBSD is just as free as Linux, if not more free") all mentioned. This seems like a well rounded advocacy. Three cheers for Joey Garcia. I just fired off a letter to editors@microtimes.com just in case there's space on freefall (or whatever the web server is now) for this kinda stuff. - alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Mar 2 23:23:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16B814F2D for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:23:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA40023; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:23:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Unfurl Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: Active advocacy In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:54:00 PST." <19990302205400.A97649@dub.net> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:23:04 -0800 Message-ID: <40020.920445784@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [directed just to -advocacy] > Two years ago I lived in Tucson,AZ. After a few newsgroup posts > and a meeting or two we had a really great group going. Today they > have over 130 members. In January, after moving to Seattle, WA I > posted a request to various newsgroups and mailing lists to see if > there was any interest in a Seattle area users group. Now, two > months later, the group is getting ready for it's second meeting > and has 25 people on the mailing list. Some of these people are > newbies that are getting their "mother's milk" from others on the > list. Some of them might have given up without that initial boost. Wow, that's a nice little "success story" there - any chance of getting an article on "how to start your own user group" for the mythical and much-rumored issue #3 of the FreeBSD Newsletter? :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 0:54: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6CBC14ED0 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:53:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA26241; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:53:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 00:53:23 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: dannyman Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990303005323.A26015@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <19990302192945.E15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <19990302195438.G15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990302195438.G15210@stumpy.dannyland.org>; from dannyman on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 07:54:38PM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 07:54:38PM -0600, dannyman wrote: > > D00D!!!! We need an animated gif: > > Chuckie blinks his eyes and then looks down to notice a mushroom in front of > him. He leans his trident down, scoops up the mushroom, and pops it into his > mouth. These cool psychedelic colors start forming in his eyes, and they ooze [...] > Of course, this gif must be less than 800k in size. Any takers? D00d, I've got one, only it's 1024x768 at 10 frames per second. It will fit in 2.88MB, but there's no way we're getting it in 800K. Is it completely worthless to you? Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Black holes were created mailto:gsutter@pobox.com when God divided by zero. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 1:58:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 761F614F0D for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 01:58:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 27160 invoked by alias); 3 Mar 1999 09:58:06 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 27142 invoked by uid 0); 3 Mar 1999 09:58:05 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 09:58:05 -0000 Message-ID: <36DD07AC.DA062FEE@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 01:58:04 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: dannyman , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <19990302192945.E15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <19990302195438.G15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <19990303005323.A26015@orcrist.mediacity.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 07:54:38PM -0600, dannyman wrote: > > > > D00D!!!! We need an animated gif: > > > > Chuckie blinks his eyes and then looks down to notice a mushroom in front of > > him. He leans his trident down, scoops up the mushroom, and pops it into his > > mouth. These cool psychedelic colors start forming in his eyes, and they ooze > [...] > > > Of course, this gif must be less than 800k in size. Any takers? > > D00d, I've got one, only it's 1024x768 at 10 frames per second. It will > fit in 2.88MB, but there's no way we're getting it in 800K. Is it > completely worthless to you? I've got the tools to size it down to a less imposing size if you need. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 2:52:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from Thingol.KryptoKom.DE (Thingol.KryptoKom.DE [194.245.91.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86BC214F38; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:52:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eT@KryptoKom.DE) Received: (from mail@localhost) by Thingol.KryptoKom.DE (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA21263; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:53:09 +0100 Received: from cirdan.kryptokom.de by via smtpp (Version 1.1.1beta6) id kwa21252; Wed Mar 03 11:52:55 1999 Received: from borg.kryptokom.de (borg.Kryptokom.DE [192.168.6.132]) by Cirdan.KryptoKom.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04824; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:55:33 +0100 Received: from kryptokom.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by borg.kryptokom.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01297; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:57:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from eT@kryptokom.de) Message-ID: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 11:57:44 +0100 From: eT Organization: KryptoKom GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-19980804-SNAP i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: what's in a name? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am wondering why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first place? could it be that the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly operating system than FreeBSD? and that because of this new users are more susceptible to using it? i mean, just all the different versions of linux out there would make me think twice about even starting off with it? is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more than ever before! eT -- Etienne de Bruin; edebruin@iname.com visit eT on the web: http://listen.to/eT (last update: 20 Feb 1999) "god is there, there's no denying, supernatural" - dc talk, supernatural. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 2:57:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5ECB214E4B for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:57:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.210.87]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990303105727.PIOI682101.mta1-rme@wocker>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:57:27 +1300 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: eT Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:56:45 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: what's in a name? Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy In-reply-to: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990303105727.PIOI682101.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 3 Mar 99, at 11:57, eT wrote: > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am wondering > why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first place? could it be that > the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly operating system than > FreeBSD? and that because of this new users are more susceptible to > using it? From what I understand, it's a matter of time. Linux has been around longer. Well, I guess I should say, available longer. FreeBSD was caught up in copyright issues for a while. As far as I'm concerned, the name isn't an issue. It's the quality. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 3: 4:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F7514F07; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:04:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27788; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:04:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:04:28 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: eT Cc: FreeBSD Chat , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: what's in a name? Message-ID: <19990303030428.E26015@orcrist.mediacity.com> Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de>; from eT on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:57:44AM +0100 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:57:44AM +0100, eT wrote: > > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant > of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more > than ever before! > > Etienne de Bruin; edebruin@iname.com Why not change your name to Joe Camel, so you have more marketability and better name recognition? ... Same reason. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter The best way to accelerate Windows mailto:gsutter@pobox.com is at 9.8 m/s^2. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 3:12:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shibumi.feralmonkey.org (shibumi.feralmonkey.org [203.41.114.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9754E14E9C; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:12:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG) Received: from shibumi (shibumi [203.41.114.182]) by shibumi.feralmonkey.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303767A3C; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:15:22 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:15:22 +1100 (EST) From: To: eT Cc: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Without an image behind it, a name is nothing. Nick -- "We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?" - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962) On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, eT wrote: > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am wondering > why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first place? could it be that > the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly operating system than > FreeBSD? and that because of this new users are more susceptible to > using it? > > i mean, just all the different versions of linux out there would make me > think twice about even starting off with it? > > is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? > > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant > of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more > than ever before! > > eT > > -- > Etienne de Bruin; edebruin@iname.com > visit eT on the web: http://listen.to/eT (last update: 20 Feb 1999) > "god is there, there's no denying, supernatural" - dc talk, supernatural. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 3:14:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A787214F04; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Dave@Yost.com) Received: from [205.219.69.138] (205-219-69-138.bayarea.net [205.219.69.138]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA05041; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:14:18 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Sender: dayost@mail.bayarea.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:13:58 -0800 To: eT From: Dave Yost Subject: Re: what's in a name? Cc: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:57 AM +0100 1999-03-03, eT wrote: > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am wondering > why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first place? could it be t= hat > the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly operating system than > FreeBSD? and that because of this new users are more susceptible to > using it? Yes! Linux is warm and fuzzy, like Linus, the kid with the fuzzy blanket. = FreeBSD is techie and acrinomious, acronymical. (Yes, I know, there will= be a chorus of fans who like it to sound techie.) And it sounds like= freebie, which has the connotation of el cheapo marketing. > is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? Absolutely. > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant > of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more > than ever before! schroedix? snoopix? peanix? (this one makes me laugh) blankie? blankix? fuzzix? paulinx? VitaminCeex? warmvm? steamingvm? weenix? geex? geexooks? wannabeex? berx? (not good for the U.K. -- well, it would make for a good book title: berx for Berks.) ;-) I'm getting carried away... But seriously, there's a totally great name out there waiting to be discover= ed. Do you think Zip drives would have caught on as well if they had been called= Bernoulli III? or FloppyXYZ? Dave Too much crazed wordplay for one night... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 3:51:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from corp.au.triax.com (slwag1p25.ozemail.com.au [203.108.157.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2599F1508A; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:50:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@corp.au.triax.com) Received: (from jim@localhost) by corp.au.triax.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA03824; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:50:00 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:49:59 +1100 From: Jim Mock To: eT Cc: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? Message-ID: <19990303224958.A3681@corp.au.triax.com> Reply-To: jim@corp.au.triax.com References: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 03 Mar 1999 at 11:57:44 +0100, eT wrote: > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am > wondering why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first > place? Plain and simple.. publicity. Linux is what's talked about in the news. Alot of people don't even know they have any other options. Blame it on the media.. it seems they like to call all free unices "Linux". > could it be that the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly > operating system than FreeBSD? and that because of this new users > are more susceptible to using it? > Eh? How does Linux sound more user-friendly? > i mean, just all the different versions of linux out there would > make me think twice about even starting off with it? > There's different *BSDs too. > is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? > Doubtful. Why would it be? > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant of linux? i > agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more than ever > before! > I think you've spent too much time "phoning home" eT. There's nothing wrong with the name.. the problem is getting the word out that there are alternatives to Linux. I mean you can call a lump of shit sugar, but it's still a lump of shit right? The point is, the name's got nothing to do with it, doing something about the situation is what it's all about. Some media outlets are finally catching on.. there was a post from Brett Glass earlier about ZDTV mentioning FreeBSD, and even Bill Gates himself has mentioned FreeBSD. Articles need to be written and sent to magazines.. writing articles for sites like The FreeBSD 'zine and Daemon News.. posting stuff on Slashdot.. getting a friend to convert from Linux or Windows to FreeBSD.. starting a user group in your area (unless you're in my boat and in a technologically challenged area, i.e., you mention the word computer and people look at you like you've got a big snot hangin' from your nose, let alone bring up UNIX or FreeBSD).. those are the kinds of things that need to be done, not a name change. Anyway, I'm rambling.. time to shut up, but I think you get my point. Btw, anyone interested in contributing an article to The FreeBSD 'zine, drop me an email or hunt me down in #FreeBSD on Undernet, and we'll go from there. Later, -- : Jim Mock | [jim@corp.au.triax.com] : : System Administrator | http://www.triax.com/ : : Triax Internet Services | ----------------------------- : : Portland, OR USA | The FreeBSD 'zine : : Wagga Wagga, NSW Australia | http://www.freebsdzine.org/ : : FreeBSD: The Power To Serve | http://www.freebsd.org/ : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 5: 4:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0472814EE0 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:04:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.ddns.org) Received: from pechter.ddns.org (bg-tc-ppp194.monmouth.com [209.191.60.195]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA18277; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:03:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.ddns.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) id IAA01648; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:03:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199903031303.IAA01648@pechter.ddns.org> Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <199903030411.XAA00446@y.dyson.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 2, 1999 11:11:34 pm" To: dyson@iquest.net Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:03:39 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > A little insider note: I happen to have access to the insides > of the proverbial largest computer manufacturer, and they really > love FreeBSD. The reason why it isn't being used in certain > applications has NOTHING to do with technical excellence. > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. Having worked at IBM two years ago, I know the one of the reasons they went to Linux was probably it's market recognition and it's internal use by the techies (including myself) who used Linux instead of FreeBSD due to the Token Ring support which wasn't in FreeBSD 2.1 and wasn't going to be there unless someone with a vested interest in Token Ring hardware did something. I ran Linux at work on my desktop. Linux's support of non-high end hardware still beats FreeBSD. I've already begun to lose the battle. I've got two machines at work running 2.2.8 that will go Linux, since there's no Scsi support for their controllers in FreeBSD 3.x. (We shouldn't have lost the AIC and NCR5380 support in 3.1.) Unfortunately, coding this stuff is beyond my poor old sysadmin capabilities. I can script, compile and test -- but not code stuff like that. The way I got FreeBSD in to work was showing it's excellent server capabilities on low end (5 year old) hardware. We're losing this battle. Linux used to have some drivers out a little before FreeBSD, but FreeBSD has walked away from the desktop towards server class hardware and isn't doing what it needs to to support the widest range of hardware. I've offered loaner hardware up to anyone doing the drivers. I've already lent two NCR5380's to John Ruschmeyer who worked on the NetBSD NCR5380 drivers. I really would like to see someone CAM-ize the FreeBSD drivers from 2.2.8. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 7: 2:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.GTS.NET (whambam.gts.net [204.138.66.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 667ED14FFE; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tronix!signalpath.on.ca!louis@GTS.NET) Received: from tronix by mail.GTS.NET (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1; 1998-Nov-20) (4630 bytes) via rmail with /P:uucp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp id (sender ) for FreeBSD.ORG!freebsd-advocacy; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from tronix.signalpath.on.ca([192.168.250.1]) (4309 bytes) by tronix.signalpath.on.ca via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:smart_host/T:uux (sender: ) id for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:25:53 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1 built 1999-Jan-2) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:25:53 -0500 (EST) From: Louis Bertrand Reply-To: Louis Bertrand To: Jim Mock Cc: eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <19990303224958.A3681@corp.au.triax.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Pardon an interloper from OpenBSD. I just subscribed and caught this thread which echoes a draft of an opinion piece I was going to do for DaemonNews. On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Jim Mock wrote: > > could it be that the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly > > operating system than FreeBSD? and that because of this new users > > are more susceptible to using it? > > > > Eh? How does Linux sound more user-friendly? > 1) Because it's associated with a real person's name, whose hype as a philantropic boy-genius from Finland catches the attention of non-techies (may it's that Mozart thing...). I'm not running Linus down -- he is articulate and media-savvy and has a lot to do with the success of Linux. But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in trouble with Nike. 2) Because a name is one of the hardest things to remember about a person -- it's an arbitrary choice by parents, and not tied back to a physical characteristic. Hence you try to make the name representative and associated with mnemonic clues (Linux -> Linus) A big no-no in marketing is using initials (IBM is big enough to get away with it -- a freenix OS isn't). Try explaining BSD to a non-techie, then quiz him/her the next day. If they even remember the name, you'll get DBS, BBS, BSB... Hence you use something that evokes a warm fuzzy response and you're more likely to be remembered. Media scribes are like the rest of us: over-worked and underpaid. You need to catch their attention. > > i mean, just all the different versions of linux out there would > > make me think twice about even starting off with it? > > > > There's different *BSDs too. > > > is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? > > > > Doubtful. Why would it be? One word: Marketing. Have you ever seen the movie "The Shawshank Redemption"? Good movie, lousy name; it flopped at the box office. Same with Isuzu automobiles: their sales took off when they started sub-branding (RODEO by Isuzu, in North America). > > > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant of linux? i > > agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more than ever > > before! > > > > I think you've spent too much time "phoning home" eT. There's nothing > wrong with the name.. the problem is getting the word out that there > are alternatives to Linux. I mean you can call a lump of shit sugar, > but it's still a lump of shit right? The point is, the name's got > nothing to do with it, doing something about the situation is what > it's all about. There is something wrong with the name but I agree that calling FreeBSD a variant of Linux is a very bad idea. However, we could use some better marketing. It's a conundrum of the open source groups that there are more developers than marketers (exact opposite in large software companies). Another problem is that there are no applications aimed at non-expert users. By non-expert user, I mean someone who is an expert in a non-computer field but has to use a computer to get their job done, like a graphic artist, a stock market analyst, a writer, a sales person, etc. They're treated like boobs by the hackers in the open source movement. If you want respect from the community at large, you have to earn it since, unlike Nike, MS and Camel, you can't buy it. You won't solve the problem by going into denial. Ciao! --Louis Louis Bertrand, Bowmanville, ON, Canada OpenBSD: One fish, two fish, blowfish http://www.OpenBSD.org/crypto.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 7:27: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E55C14F4D for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:26:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id QAA07053; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:22:57 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19990303162257.A7022@foobar.franken.de> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:22:57 +0100 From: Harold Gutch To: Brett Glass , Brian Behlendorf , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost> <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990301220138.A22241@foobar.franken.de> <4.1.19990301140945.03f161b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990301140945.03f161b0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 02:10:14PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 02:10:14PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >Sounds like > > http://sol-r.franken.de/~logix/killer.gif > > I want that on a T-shirt for LinuxWorld!!!!!! > A friend of mine (rhoenie@chillout.org) created a completely new pic with rather similar contents. It's available at ftp://ftp.mayn.de/pub/data/PICS/rhoenie-chuck_and_tux.jpg or, for the people who want it on a T-shirt at ftp://ftp.mayn.de/pub/data/PICS/rhoenie-chuck_and_tux.tif BTW, he uses Linux :). bye, Harold -- Sleep is an abstinence syndrome wich occurs due to lack of caffein. Wed Mar 4 04:53:33 CET 1998 #unix, ircnet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 7:47: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.WorldMediaCo.com (unknown [207.252.121.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F37AA1553B for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:46:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from opsys@omaha.com) Received: from freebsd.omaha.com ([207.252.122.220]) by mail1.WorldMediaCo.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-55573U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:37:52 -0600 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:45:49 -0600 (CST) From: opsys@omaha.com (opsys) To: Nocturne Cc: Gregory Sutter , dannyman , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <36DD07AC.DA062FEE@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Has anyone thought of using PNG for the graphics? Just a though. I convert most of my images to PNG. -- "Paranoia, Paranoia, Everybody's coming to get me" Chris cwatson@worldmediaco.com opsys@open-systems.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 8: 0:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A1E815477; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:00:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09072; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:58:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36DD5C3F.A0FC6C1F@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 08:58:55 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Louis Bertrand Cc: Jim Mock , eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Louis Bertrand wrote: > > Pardon an interloper from OpenBSD. I just subscribed and caught this > thread which echoes a draft of an opinion piece I was going to do for > DaemonNews. > > On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Jim Mock wrote: > > > > could it be that the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly > > > operating system than FreeBSD? and that because of this new users > > > are more susceptible to using it? > > > > > > > Eh? How does Linux sound more user-friendly? > > > > 1) Because it's associated with a real person's name, whose hype as a > philantropic boy-genius from Finland catches the attention of non-techies > (may it's that Mozart thing...). I'm not running Linus down -- he is > articulate and media-savvy and has a lot to do with the success of Linux. > > But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in > trouble with Nike. TerryBSD lives! > 2) Because a name is one of the hardest things to remember about a person > -- it's an arbitrary choice by parents, and not tied back to a physical > characteristic. Hence you try to make the name representative and > associated with mnemonic clues (Linux -> Linus) A big no-no in marketing > is using initials (IBM is big > enough to get away with it -- a freenix OS isn't). Try explaining BSD to a > non-techie, then quiz him/her the next day. If they even remember the > name, you'll get DBS, BBS, BSB... Or worse, DSB, that terrible disease that afflicts teenage boys EVERYwhere. Comments about TerryDSB are unwelcome in this forum... > Hence you use something that evokes a > warm fuzzy response and you're more likely to be remembered. Media scribes > are like the rest of us: over-worked and underpaid. You need to catch > their attention. We'll have to make the TerryBSD daemon thinner, with freckles. That oughtta remove any sinister connotations. > You won't solve the problem by going into denial. I can if I deny there is a problem. I don't have any personal need for FreeBSD to become a whopping commercial success; I do not seek the validation of the marketplace for my choices in using and contributing to FreeBSD. How's that for denial? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 8:16:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (danman.isdn.uiuc.edu [192.17.16.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E86941558E for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:16:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: (qmail 25689 invoked by uid 1000); 3 Mar 1999 16:16:18 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:16:18 -0600 From: dannyman To: Gregory Sutter Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart Message-ID: <19990303101618.A25653@stumpy.dannyland.org> References: <19990302192945.E15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <19990302195438.G15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <19990303005323.A26015@orcrist.mediacity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <19990303005323.A26015@orcrist.mediacity.com>; from Gregory Sutter on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:53:23AM -0800 X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:53:23AM -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 07:54:38PM -0600, dannyman wrote: > > > > D00D!!!! We need an animated gif: > > > > Chuckie blinks his eyes and then looks down to notice a mushroom in front > > of him. He leans his trident down, scoops up the mushroom, and pops it > > into his mouth. These cool psychedelic colors start forming in his eyes, > > and they ooze > [...] > > > Of course, this gif must be less than 800k in size. Any takers? > > D00d, I've got one, only it's 1024x768 at 10 frames per second. It will fit > in 2.88MB, but there's no way we're getting it in 800K. Is it completely > worthless to you? iT's k00l I h4v3 k-rAD iSDn linez !28k!!!1! -- dannyman - http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 8:18: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mamut.isi.wat.waw.pl (mamut.isi.wat.waw.pl [193.59.144.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C022114FA5 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:17:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwojtas@mamut.isi.wat.waw.pl) Received: (qmail 1501 invoked by uid 1030); 3 Mar 1999 16:18:56 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:18:56 +0100 (EET) From: Dariusz Wojtas To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <36DD5C3F.A0FC6C1F@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > TerryBSD lives! Terry? I always thought it was Chuck! ChuckBSD lives! Sag ____ ___ _______ Sentencja na dzis :) / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __/ _ \ +====================+ / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/ // / Szczesciem jednego czlowieka /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___/____/ jest drugi czlowiek. ----- The Power to Serve ----- (Jean Paul Sartre) http://www.freebsd.org +====================+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 9:33:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A1C614F2A for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:33:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA226792376; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:32:56 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:32:56 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: Brett Taylor , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302163944.00a1e620@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Stop right there. Most users don't even know what CVSup is, much > less use it to update source. They don't want a system that > changes every day, nor do they want the overhead of updating > everything constantly. If the users aren't updating their sources/ports, then the new (lack of) support will not alienate them. Either Users want new/updated ports, and they keep their source current. or Users want stability in ports, and keep their trees the same. You can't have it both ways. > >That said I see you maintain no ports at all > > True. I haven't been asked to. Nor would I want to, if the ports system > left users in the cold like that. Whine, whine, bitch, bitch. The ports tree doesn't change on users unless they want it to, and they should understand those consequences. > If it's a problem, it's a problem with the system. Compiling to two > formats should not be THAT difficult. But if it's REALLY such a big > deal for you to compile to anything but ELF, why not create a module that > lets 2.2.x load ELF binaries that use native FreeBSD APIs? It > sounds to me as if this would merely involve adapting the Linux > compatibility module for 2.2.x to do this when it saw a > FreeBSD-branded ELF binary. This module could be brought in as > a dependency in the port, along with any "upgrade kit" that was > required. I'll be waiting for your package to come through the PR system. > A tiny amount of cleverness and innovation can solve these problems. > But nothing that disenfranchises loyal existing users is acceptable, EVER. The existing users aren't the ones being hurt. It's the ones who are moving targets right now. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 9:37:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE0F114FEF for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:37:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA228492641; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:37:21 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:37:20 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: dannyman , Brett Taylor , Adam Turoff , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302181700.00c56d10@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >Ugh, that's when you go to the bloody config screen and change your RELEASE to > >2.2.8. > > And find out that the port is old and buggy because they're only maintaining > things in ELF now and you can't run FreeBSD ELFs. ... and then you stop listening to Brett and remember that as of the 2.2.8-RELEASE, a.out ports were still supported. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 9:44: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F197F1549E for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:42:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA230272923; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:42:03 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:42:03 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Brett Glass Cc: dannyman , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302183847.00a22f00@localhost> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > True. But since the newest versions of the ports are all in ELF format, > what you'll get will be old. What you will get is ports that were stable at that time, which seems to be your goal. You say "... I don't need the bleeding edge, current blah blah", then you say "... what you'll get will be old". Make up your mind. > Again, there ought to be a way to get the most up-to-date ports for any > RELEASE version that's up to a year old. There also ought to be a paid staff of 2000 people maintaining said ports. We don't always get what we want, but the ports system as it stands now is the best compromise. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 9:53:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6960614F53; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:53:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA233733545; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:52:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:52:25 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Louis Bertrand Cc: Jim Mock , eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Louis Bertrand wrote: > enough to get away with it -- a freenix OS isn't). Try explaining BSD to a > non-techie, then quiz him/her the next day. If they even remember the > name, you'll get DBS, BBS, BSB... Hence you use something that evokes a > warm fuzzy response and you're more likely to be remembered. Media scribes > are like the rest of us: over-worked and underpaid. You need to catch > their attention. One of my bosses often states that we run 'FreeDSB' - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 10: 2: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1DDC14FD3 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:01:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id DAA19901; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 03:00:54 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DCA5FF.5D2A3478@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:01:19 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dannyman Cc: Alex Zepeda , Brett Glass , Keith Stevenson , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <19990302192945.E15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> <19990302195438.G15210@stumpy.dannyland.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG dannyman wrote: > > D00D!!!! We need an animated gif: > [...] > > Of course, this gif must be less than 800k in size. Any takers? Well, I started doing it, and managed to got to the end at ~917Kb, but then I noticed that there was no support for sound on animated GIFs and, out of frustration, deleted everything. Oh, well. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 10: 2: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFF8214FC7 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:01:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA41744; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:01:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: eT Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Mar 1999 11:57:44 +0100." <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:01:09 -0800 Message-ID: <41740.920484069@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [Just -advocacy; let's not go overboard] > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant > of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more > than ever before! Oh Jesus Christ on a Rubber Crutch. Not THIS damn thread again, and cross-posted to both chat and advocacy at that. Are people really so devoid of more important challenges to work on that they have time for lost causes like this one? Hmmm. I can clearly see you folks aren't being kept BUSY enough. Can I sign Etienne up to do a German book on FreeBSD? That'll keep him busy! :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 10: 2:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E04511549F for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:02:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA09300; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:01:38 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36DD7902.3BCEC7E@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 11:01:38 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Unfurl , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: Active advocacy References: <40020.920445784@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > [directed just to -advocacy] > > > Two years ago I lived in Tucson,AZ. After a few newsgroup posts > > and a meeting or two we had a really great group going. Today they > > have over 130 members. In January, after moving to Seattle, WA I > > posted a request to various newsgroups and mailing lists to see if > > there was any interest in a Seattle area users group. Now, two > > months later, the group is getting ready for it's second meeting > > and has 25 people on the mailing list. Some of these people are > > newbies that are getting their "mother's milk" from others on the > > list. Some of them might have given up without that initial boost. > > Wow, that's a nice little "success story" there Remember the slogan "Think globally, act locally"? Works, doesn't it? Keep that in mind when planning advocacy activities. It's OK to start small, and advocacy always starts at home. To steal another slogan (from a prominent local church) "Every member is a missionary." ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 12: 3:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9BB9914F89 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:03:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 6600 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999 20:01:47 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 20:01:47 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA01396; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:01:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903032001.PAA01396@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> from eT at "Mar 3, 99 11:57:44 am" To: eT@KryptoKom.DE (eT) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:01:45 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG eT said: > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am wondering > why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first place? could it be that > the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly operating system than > FreeBSD? and that because of this new users are more susceptible to > using it? > > i mean, just all the different versions of linux out there would make me > think twice about even starting off with it? > > is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? > > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant > of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more > than ever before! > IMO, the BSD people have generally more dignity and are generally older. The few that are aggressive like the Linux/GPL crew are not considered to be part of the clique. The problems with advocacy are not in the name, but in a false sense of what is needed to make it in the marketplace. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 12:12:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FC2814F8D for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:12:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 15367 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999 20:11:15 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 20:11:15 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA01416; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:11:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903032011.PAA01416@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <19990303224958.A3681@corp.au.triax.com> from Jim Mock at "Mar 3, 99 10:49:59 pm" To: jim@corp.au.triax.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:11:13 -0500 (EST) Cc: eT@KryptoKom.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jim Mock said: > On Wed, 03 Mar 1999 at 11:57:44 +0100, eT wrote: > > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am > > wondering why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first > > place? > > Plain and simple.. publicity. Linux is what's talked about in the > news. Alot of people don't even know they have any other options. > Blame it on the media.. it seems they like to call all free unices > "Linux". > "Blame it on the media?" Nope, it is a problem with exposure, and the media being as "lazy"* as it is, they do need to be schmoozed and spoon-fed. Part of PR is being part of the "network". * By "lazy" I mean will not dig deep, if on the surface the info looks complete. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 12:53:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7984F15190; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:53:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09089; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:46:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199903032046.MAA09089@rah.star-gate.com> To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: jim@corp.au.triax.com, eT@KryptoKom.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Mar 1999 15:11:13 EST." <199903032011.PAA01416@y.dyson.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:46:46 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Perhaps if have a a SWAT press team to attack or educate those lazy reporters they may think twice about only writing about L****. SWAT press team come equip with the latest literature on FreeBSD and a standard treatise on BSD vs. GPL . Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 13:13:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 296A814FF0 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:13:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.ddns.org) Received: from pechter.ddns.org (bg-tc-ppp194.monmouth.com [209.191.60.195]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA06107; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:13:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.ddns.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) id QAA02609; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:13:07 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199903032113.QAA02609@pechter.ddns.org> Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <199903032011.PAA01416@y.dyson.net> from "John S. Dyson" at "Mar 3, 1999 3:11:13 pm" To: dyson@iquest.net Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:13:06 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John Dyson said: > "Blame it on the media?" Nope, it is a problem with exposure, and > the media being as "lazy"* as it is, they do need to be schmoozed and > spoon-fed. Part of PR is being part of the "network". > > * By "lazy" I mean will not dig deep, if on the surface the info looks > complete. > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. John -- most of the press folks I worked with in the late '70's and early 80's were non-technical to the extreme. I remember teaching one how to jumpstart a car in the parking lot. The press are not deep in math, science and computer adept types. Most of 'em took a long look at computer science and electrical engineering classes and ran the other way (myself included at that time). My background is pretty unusual for a SysAdmin. I used to do PR and newspaper reporting and editing until I realized I was getting $2.50/hr and the guy who was fixing the typesetting equipment was getting $12.50/hr. What's that say for the journalists and their value in an open Free-market society. 8-( My BA was in History and second major Political Science... which made me kind of an unusual guy for DeVry Tech in '80 and in DEC Field Service in '82. They need professional explainers to help them understand what this FreeBSD stuff means. PR's not just spin control and handouts. (Alright, sometime it is...) Most of them have pretty good people skills and backgrounds in History, Psychology, Political Science etc. They can take information and organize it and deliver it well. They don't have the resources and knowledge to deeply jump into the Open Source Software issues... Remember, it's just like they didn't do too well in the mid-80's in the Proprietary - Open Systems debate. How open's SunOS 4 or HP-UX. Can you see the source code? Well, DEC shipped source microfiche for VAX/VMS for less than an AT&T source license (about 10x less). And now they think Microsoft COTS stuff is "OPEN" -- geez. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 14:34:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0AC15240; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:34:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id HAA01888; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:34:11 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DDAC44.A54AF2C9@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:40:20 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Yost Cc: eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dave Yost wrote: > > But seriously, there's a totally great name out there waiting to be discovered. Beastie! This might be appropriate for -chat (I wouldn't know), but silly waste of our time is not really -advocacy material, no matter how much we seek to prove otherwise. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 14:35: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A03314FBC; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:34:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id HAA01900; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:34:17 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DDAD74.33EF597A@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:45:24 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Louis Bertrand Cc: Jim Mock , eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Louis Bertrand wrote: > > > Eh? How does Linux sound more user-friendly? > > > > 1) Because it's associated with a real person's name, whose hype as a > philantropic boy-genius from Finland catches the attention of non-techies > (may it's that Mozart thing...). I'm not running Linus down -- he is > articulate and media-savvy and has a lot to do with the success of Linux. > > But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in > trouble with Nike. > > 2) Because a name is one of the hardest things to remember about a person > -- it's an arbitrary choice by parents, and not tied back to a physical > characteristic. Hence you try to make the name representative and > associated with mnemonic clues (Linux -> Linus) A big no-no in marketing > is using initials (IBM is big > enough to get away with it -- a freenix OS isn't). Try explaining BSD to a > non-techie, then quiz him/her the next day. If they even remember the > name, you'll get DBS, BBS, BSB... Hence you use something that evokes a > warm fuzzy response and you're more likely to be remembered. Media scribes > are like the rest of us: over-worked and underpaid. You need to catch > their attention. Well, since FreeBSD is not changing it's name, I think we won't know the answer until Mr. Lambert finally releases TerryBSD. ;-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 14:35: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DB715640; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:35:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id HAA01907; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:34:21 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DDADCC.B6ED12B8@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:46:52 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Louis Bertrand , Jim Mock , eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <36DD5C3F.A0FC6C1F@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Wes Peters wrote: > > > But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in > > trouble with Nike. > > TerryBSD lives! DAMN! You beat me to it! :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 14:48:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F5B915764 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:48:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 29329 invoked by alias); 3 Mar 1999 22:47:53 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 29279 invoked by uid 0); 3 Mar 1999 22:47:52 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 22:47:52 -0000 Message-ID: <36DDBC16.95DB8B85@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 14:47:50 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: opsys Cc: Gregory Sutter , dannyman , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG opsys wrote: > > Has anyone thought of using PNG for the graphics? > Just a though. I convert most of my images to PNG. PNGs are handy, if you want to use more than 256 colors and want perfect reproduction. But even a low-compression JPG that returns near-perfect reproduction would yield much smaller images. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 15:11:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from m4.stox.sa.enteract.com (stox.sa.enteract.com [207.229.132.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1169914D42 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:11:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@stox.sa.enteract.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.stox.sa.enteract.com [127.0.0.1]) by m4.stox.sa.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id RAA01203 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:11:12 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:11:12 -0600 (CST) From: "Kenneth P. Stox" Reply-To: stox@enteract.com To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <199903032046.MAA09089@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Perhaps if have a a SWAT press team to attack or educate those lazy > reporters they may think twice about only writing about L****. > From my experience with the Press ( New York Times, Chicago Tribune, The Wall Street Journal, to name a few ), you would be amazed at how little they actually write. Instead, paraphrasing press releases and other material that is sent to them by "interested" parties. Why do yo think Red Hat has gotten so much press, they are feeding the media. We must do the same. What we need is a team of writers. We need to spoon feed them. -Ken To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 16:15:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 371C914D5D; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:15:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18199; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:15:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd018151; Wed Mar 3 17:15:17 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23340; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:15:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903040015.RAA23340@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: what's in a name? To: nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:15:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: eT@KryptoKom.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG" at Mar 3, 99 10:15:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Without an image behind it, a name is nothing. Obey your thirst. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 16:17:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC157151EC; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:17:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10776; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:16:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd010731; Wed Mar 3 17:16:39 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23442; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:16:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903040016.RAA23442@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: what's in a name? To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:16:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: louis@signalpath.on.ca, jim@corp.au.triax.com, eT@KryptoKom.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36DD5C3F.A0FC6C1F@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Mar 3, 99 08:58:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in > > trouble with Nike. > > TerryBSD lives! I prefer Win/BSD. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 16:19:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A001815681; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:19:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19968; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:19:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd019873; Wed Mar 3 17:19:16 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23544; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:19:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903040019.RAA23544@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: what's in a name? To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:19:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, jim@corp.au.triax.com, eT@KryptoKom.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com In-Reply-To: <199903032046.MAA09089@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Mar 3, 99 12:46:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Perhaps if have a a SWAT press team to attack or educate those lazy > reporters they may think twice about only writing about L****. > > SWAT press team come equip with the latest literature on FreeBSD and > a standard treatise on BSD vs. GPL . Don't look at me. I was in the only picture of Windows Refund Day published by the NY Times, wearing my blue Daemon shirt. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 16:36:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3CD014E9C for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:36:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from genisis@istar.ca) Received: from ts7-06.kin.istar.ca ([207.216.1.133] helo=genisis) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 10IM7F-0002vr-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:35:54 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990303194202.007d8d80@istar.ca> X-Sender: genisis@istar.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:42:02 -0500 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Dru Subject: my bit for the cause Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Last Monday, I started a FreeBSD users group at the technical school I teach at (in Kingston, Ontario). We started with an Installathon and will be tackling a project every Monday evening. This week was PPP, next week we compile new kernels. So far we have a list of weekly projects that should keep us busy for several months of Mondays. We started with 10 users who brought in 2 extra converts the 2nd Monday. Users have NO previous experience with BSD, and varying experience working with Netware, NT, and Linux. All are agreed that BSD was the easiest install of these OSs and that connecting to the Net was effortless as compared to Linux. None of the users had any experience with using mailing lists, so I set up a private list on listbot.com so they can learn proper netiquette and how to provide what technical assistance they've acquired thus far. One of our later projects will be setting up a list using Majordomo. At some point, the FreeBSD lists will have an extra dozen or so subscribers that will know how to correctly post to a list (after reading the manpages first, and from a proper mailer--as soon as I figure out how teach them to use one!) That's it for now. Can keep the list posted on our progress if any one is interested. Dru She didn't know it couldn't be done, so she went ahead and did it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 18:51:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.on.home.com (ha1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com [24.2.9.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3AB14FB6; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:51:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from interlog.com ([24.66.17.104]) by mail.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail v4.00.03 201-229-104) with ESMTP id <19990304025110.CBMF14824.mail.rdc1.on.home.com@interlog.com>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:51:10 -0800 Message-ID: <36DDF41C.3230EB48@interlog.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 21:46:52 -0500 From: Paul Griffith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.7 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <199903040016.RAA23442@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in > > > trouble with Nike. > > > > TerryBSD lives! > > I prefer Win/BSD. > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org Hey don't give Microsoft any ideas. Next thing you know we have a MS Press Release pre-announcing WinBSD 2000 with Native Linux Support. I kinda like MyBSD "Have It Your Way" :-) -- Paul Griffith <> paulg@interlog.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 18:53:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCEE314E95 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:52:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from genisis@istar.ca) Received: from ts9-09.kin.istar.ca ([207.216.1.104] helo=genisis) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 10IOEx-00079W-00 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:52:00 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990303215810.007c73d0@istar.ca> X-Sender: genisis@istar.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 21:58:10 -0500 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: Dru Subject: freebsd supported Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Has anyone seen this yet? http://www.windowstechedge.com/wte-1999-03/wte-03-vmware.html?0301 Interesting concept. Even more interesting that FreeBSd is one of the supported operating systems. Think of the ramifications: users can compare FreeBSD to 7 other operating systems and decide for themselves. Dru One often meets his destiny on the road one takes to avoid it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 19: 5:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from aloha.cc.columbia.edu (aloha.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA04B15142; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:05:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: from confusion.net (dialup-22-2.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.47.86]) by aloha.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA27609; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:04:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36DDF831.B3B0604A@confusion.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 22:04:17 -0500 From: Laurence Berland Organization: B.R.A.T.T. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Yost Cc: eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Name doesnt do much, otherwise either CKBe by calvin klein would fail, or BeOS would be really popular. Go figure Dave Yost wrote: > At 11:57 AM +0100 1999-03-03, eT wrote: > > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am wondering > > why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first place? could it be that > > the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly operating system than > > FreeBSD? and that because of this new users are more susceptible to > > using it? > > Yes! > > Linux is warm and fuzzy, like Linus, the kid with the fuzzy blanket. FreeBSD is techie and acrinomious, acronymical. (Yes, I know, there will be a chorus of fans who like it to sound techie.) And it sounds like freebie, which has the connotation of el cheapo marketing. > > > is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? > > Absolutely. > > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant > > of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more > > than ever before! > > schroedix? > snoopix? > peanix? (this one makes me laugh) > blankie? > blankix? > > fuzzix? > > paulinx? > VitaminCeex? > > warmvm? > steamingvm? > > weenix? > geex? > geexooks? > wannabeex? > > berx? (not good for the U.K. -- well, it would make for a good book title: > berx for Berks.) > > ;-) > > I'm getting carried away... > > But seriously, there's a totally great name out there waiting to be discovered. > > Do you think Zip drives would have caught on as well if they had been called Bernoulli III? or FloppyXYZ? > > Dave > > Too much crazed wordplay for one night... > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Laurence Berland, Stuyvesant HS Debate <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Windows 98: n. useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. http://stuy.debate.net icq #7434346 aol imer E1101 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 20:26:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7960414D42 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:26:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-081.thuntek.net [207.66.52.81]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id VAA19870; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:26:12 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DE0B01.604C2F6D@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 21:24:33 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [chat stripped from cc:s] nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG wrote: > > Without an image behind it, a name is nothing. ahhh. some sanity. FreeBSD has always had (in serious circles, anyway), a careful, stable image because it has been maintained by hoary old codgers like Jordan. He's even starting to get crabby and crotchety! If you look at the LinuxWorld article back in December, you'll note the almost reverent attitude the authors have towards FreeBSD. If you talk to Linuxen older than spoiled-brat age, you'll get the same attitude. We see it more and more in the press we are getting, even in rabid Linux pubs anbd e-zines. As long as we don't descend to their level, especially in public forums like IW Electric and ZDnet, we will maintain this. Sure, Linux is gaining market share. So is BSD. What counts is that WE'VE made the right choice, and WE can make our systems run rings around anybody else's. WE should get busy proving it. The name (and Beastie) have a proud history of success. Let's add to it! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 20:31:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B404814EFA for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:31:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id NAA09561; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:31:15 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DDECE8.87906C49@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:16:08 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd vs. linux and NT chart References: <99Mar2.114516est.113920@pandora.isinet.com> <4.1.19990302132445.040f6d40@localhost> <4.1.19990302184058.00c4a1c0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > If I upgrade machines to 3.1-RELEASE, I know I'll have major work > to do rewriting maintenance scripts, etc. because things like the utmp > format have changed. This means downtime for the client. Also, since > 3.0-RELEASE was explicitly NOT for production machines, the earliest > version I will install on ANY production machine will be 3.2-RELEASE > (and only then with special permission from the client, because our > general policy is to wait for the third "real" release of anything > before relying on it for mission-critical functions). > > Sorry to sound so utterly conservative, but that's 'cause we are. If so, why do you insist on having the latest release of whatever there is in the ports? -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 20:31:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C74615064 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:31:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id NAA09610; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:31:33 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DDF2B9.3F149D6A@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:40:57 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Harold Gutch , Brian Behlendorf , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <32820.920279711@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990301081859.03f2e140@localhost> <19990301220138.A22241@foobar.franken.de> <4.1.19990301170100.03f63e90@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Brett Glass wrote: > > At 08:52 AM 3/2/99 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > > "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." > > No, Linux is Anakin Skywalker. I take an issue with that! I always thought Darth Vader really cool, while Luke could barely survive a single day on his own, always screwing up. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 20:32: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62DC315065 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:31:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id NAA09630; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:31:39 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DDF480.A58C372A@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:48:32 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com, brett@lariat.org, Dave@Yost.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The Linux PR firestorm disaster (w.r.t. FreeBSD) References: <199903011927.MAA15288@usr09.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Controversial to whom? It is just a matter of your intended > > audience, of how you sell this. "In contrast to the GPL license used > > by Linux, FreeBSD gives preference to the BSD license, meaning that > > business enterprises can use the source code as it sees fit with no > > strings attached, besides the copyright notice." > > To make this argument, you need to make the semantic distinction > between "use" and "utilize". You are free to utilize Linux, but > not use Linux source code to prepare proprietary derivative works. This is stuff to feed the masses. I claim we can get fuzzy here, because the press would do that anyway. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 20:37:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A292E1500B for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:37:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-081.thuntek.net [207.66.52.81]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id VAA23281; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:37:35 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DE0DAC.6BD5D15D@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 21:35:56 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: stox@enteract.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kenneth P. Stox wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > Perhaps if have a a SWAT press team to attack or educate those lazy > > reporters they may think twice about only writing about L****. > > > >From my experience with the Press ( New York Times, Chicago Tribune, The > Wall Street Journal, to name a few ), you would be amazed at how little > they actually write. Instead, paraphrasing press releases and other > material that is sent to them by "interested" parties. Why do yo think Red > Hat has gotten so much press, they are feeding the media. We must do the > same. What we need is a team of writers. We need to spoon feed them. > YES, you've got it! > -Ken > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 20:40:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B55A14E6D for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:40:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-081.thuntek.net [207.66.52.81]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id VAA23513; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:40:02 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DE0E3F.EEE9B575@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 21:38:23 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dru Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: my bit for the cause References: <3.0.6.32.19990303194202.007d8d80@istar.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dru - Can you package this course on HTML and submit it to DaemonNews, or give us monthly updates a page at a time??? Pix of the students, warm fuzzies, you know. Good stuff!!!! ;-D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 20:50:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from regpc30.murdoch.edu.au (regpc30.murdoch.edu.au [134.115.241.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E78D14BFD for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:50:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com) Received: from guru.wow.aust.com (regmac23.murdoch.edu.au [134.115.241.182]) by regpc30.murdoch.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23214; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:49:29 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com) Message-ID: <36DE10DF.3F57D6A7@guru.wow.aust.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 12:50:00 +0800 From: Jarvis Cochrane Reply-To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: stox@enteract.com Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Kenneth P. Stox" wrote: > On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > Perhaps if have a a SWAT press team to attack or educate those lazy > > reporters they may think twice about only writing about L****. > > > >From my experience with the Press ( New York Times, Chicago Tribune, The > Wall Street Journal, to name a few ), you would be amazed at how little > they actually write. Instead, paraphrasing press releases and other > material that is sent to them by "interested" parties. Why do yo think Red > Hat has gotten so much press, they are feeding the media. We must do the > same. What we need is a team of writers. We need to spoon feed them. Hey, this is something I can _do_! I've been looking for a way to contribute to the BSD and Open Source cause... Who do I email? Jarvis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 20:52: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D0014E5C for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:52:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-081.thuntek.net [207.66.52.81]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id VAA25741; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:51:39 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DE10F9.76429C52@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 21:50:01 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <36DE10DF.3F57D6A7@guru.wow.aust.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Major news orgs and trade e-zines have mailto:s on their contact pages and bylines. -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 21:33:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from regpc30.murdoch.edu.au (regpc30.murdoch.edu.au [134.115.241.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C4F14BEA for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:33:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com) Received: from guru.wow.aust.com (regmac23.murdoch.edu.au [134.115.241.182]) by regpc30.murdoch.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23316; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:32:04 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com) Message-ID: <36DE1AD9.17789F39@guru.wow.aust.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 13:32:39 +0800 From: Jarvis Cochrane Reply-To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Donald Wilde Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <36DE10DF.3F57D6A7@guru.wow.aust.com> <36DE10F9.76429C52@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde wrote: > Major news orgs and trade e-zines have mailto:s on their contact pages > and bylines. I think we might have a minor misunderstanding here... While I'm interested in writing BSD advocacy articles and submitting them to news orgs and ezines, I'm not really prepared to do that without input and direction from... well... the core team, I suppose. I suppose I was thinking of a process more like: (a) Someone suggests a good topic for an article ("3.1 released and it's fabulous"). (b) I write it. (c) It gets posted somewhere for comment (d) I submit it to... whoever... reuters :-) (I guess I'm just very cautious about writing anything for 'FreeBSD' rather than just for me. So, I'll happily stand up and write about my personal experiences and opinions and stuff in a public forum, but I'd be much more cautious about writing, in some sense, on behalf of a larger group...) Jarvis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 23: 4: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B96AF14D55 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:03:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id QAA27021; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:03:39 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DE3004.653B4027@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 16:02:28 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <36DE10DF.3F57D6A7@guru.wow.aust.com> <36DE10F9.76429C52@thuntek.net> <36DE1AD9.17789F39@guru.wow.aust.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jarvis Cochrane wrote: > > (I guess I'm just very cautious about writing anything for 'FreeBSD' > rather than just for me. So, I'll happily stand up and write about my > personal experiences and opinions and stuff in a public forum, but I'd be > much more cautious about writing, in some sense, on behalf of a larger > group...) There is no such thing as "bad publicity". Anything you write that has the word FreeBSD on it and gets published is useful. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Mar 3 23:30: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from regpc30.murdoch.edu.au (regpc30.murdoch.edu.au [134.115.241.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C5F14D25 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:30:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com) Received: from guru.wow.aust.com (regmac23.murdoch.edu.au [134.115.241.182]) by regpc30.murdoch.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23505; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 15:28:46 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com) Message-ID: <36DE3633.566B1C58@guru.wow.aust.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 15:28:57 +0800 From: Jarvis Cochrane Reply-To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lbruno@cmp.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Technical questions about BSD References: <8525672A.00205CC7.00@NotesSMTP-01.cmp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Lee, I'm far from the being the most knowledgeable person on this list, but perhaps I can make a start on your questions... lbruno@cmp.com wrote: > I'm in the process of writing a feature story about open source Linux and BSD. > I'm doing some comparisons between them and commercial NOSes such as Netware and > NT. However, I have a few unresolved questions I need answered. > First, I am > curious to know how many thousands of lines of code make up the BSD kernel? I can't help you with this. Perhaps another 'lister' will be able to? > Second, what hardware platforms does it run on Intel, SPARC, Amiga, > Alpha---etc.? FreeBSD is available for the x86 PC architecture and the Alpha architecture. Work is proceeding on a SPARC port, but I believe it is still in pre-alpha. I believe the SPARC port has the at least tacet support of Sun. > What scripting languages can be used with BSD-- such as TCL, C, > C++, PERL, Java, Bourne, Korn ...etc.? All of theses are supported (TCL, Perl and java tools are available in the ports collection). The standard OS installation includes a pretty complete collection of development tools - debuggers, assemblers, make, etc. > What is the maximum number of processors > that FreeBSD can run on a SMP box--- 16 or 32? I can't help you with this. Perhaps another 'lister' will be able to? > What are some basic differences > between BSD and Linux? Linux is really only the kernel written by Linuws Torvalds. Each of the Linux distributions 'wrap' their own set of utilities and applications around the kernel, resulting in numerous slightly different environments. FreeBSD has a single distribution for each release. The Linux development model is very 'loose' and decentralised. The BSD development model is more centralised and changes to the distribution are carefully controlled. The Linux kernel is a 'unix work-alike', (loosely) based on the 'Minix' system written by AS Tanenbaum. FreeBSD is a direct lineal descendent of BSD unix, with all of the AT&T code removed. Linux distributions tend to lean more towards the SYSV style of Unix. FreeBSD is a BSD style unix! Linux has a much greater slab of the 'mindshare' then FreeBSD, and hence there is more commercial support. FreeBSD, however, provides much better stability and performance, especially under heavy loads. FreeBSD will run most (~99%) of Linux binaries. > What directories does an administrator working with > FreeBSD have an option of using--- NIS from Sun, DNS, X.500--others? NIS and DNS are standard in the distribution. My own experience is that these implementation work very well. I believe there is an LDAP server available, but I don't know about X.500. > What is > the maximum file size that can run on a FreeBSD operating system-- 64 Mbytes? I can't help you with this. Perhaps another 'lister' will be able to? Um. BSD uses the Berkely FFS, so I guess the maximum file size is whatever the FFS supports. > Is > clustering supported on FreeBSD? There is a project to use FreeBSD as a platform for high performance file and compute servers. See under 'projects' on the FreeBSD web site (www.freebsd.org). > What is the minimum footprint of hard disk > memory that BSD can run on? PicoBSD will boot from a floppy disk. This distribution is sufficient to allow the user to use PPP and telnet. PicoBSD is designed to be used as platform for dedicated systems such as routers or firewalls. I have run a complete and very useful FreeBSD system on a Toshiba laptop with a 200 Mbyte hard drive. Perhaps it was even smaller than that - I forget exactly! > Can you point out any other significant differences > between FreeBSD and other versions of BSD, such as OpenBSD and NetBSD? NetBSD's specialty is running the same distribution on 'every machine under the sun.' OpenBSD is similar to NetBSD, but really, really security conscious. FreeBSD is optimised for the x86 architecture. > Similarly, can you point out any differences between FreeBSD and Linux---as well > as NT and Netwre? Try this link as a starting place. http://www.cdrom.com/~rab/bsd_chart.html > Hope this isn't too much to ask...the trouble is I couldn't > locate the info in any other place. I hope this is at least a start for you. Have you tried looking through the www.freebsd.org site? I've always found this to be a very useful source of information. Hope this helps, Jarvis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 0: 9:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 350FB14E44 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:07:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id RAA05038; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:07:21 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DE3EF1.6A7C1E3B@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:06:09 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dru Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd supported References: <3.0.6.32.19990303215810.007c73d0@istar.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Dru wrote: > > Has anyone seen this yet? > > http://www.windowstechedge.com/wte-1999-03/wte-03-vmware.html?0301 > > Interesting concept. Even more interesting that FreeBSd is one of the > supported operating systems. Think of the ramifications: users can compare > FreeBSD to 7 other operating systems and decide for themselves. Innovative? As in, compared to pre-vm/360 machines??? -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 0:48:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDA714E61 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:48:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id RAA10151; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:48:24 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DE47EA.4D3E21FD@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:44:26 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com Cc: lbruno@cmp.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Technical questions about BSD References: <8525672A.00205CC7.00@NotesSMTP-01.cmp.com> <36DE3633.566B1C58@guru.wow.aust.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jarvis Cochrane wrote: > > All of theses are supported (TCL, Perl and java tools are available in the ports > collection). The standard OS installation includes a pretty complete collection of > development tools - debuggers, assemblers, make, etc. Perl is part of the standard distribution. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 0:48:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07ED914E6F for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:48:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id RAA10143; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:48:17 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DE478D.71693519@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:42:53 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com Cc: lbruno@cmp.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Technical questions about BSD References: <8525672A.00205CC7.00@NotesSMTP-01.cmp.com> <36DE3633.566B1C58@guru.wow.aust.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jarvis Cochrane wrote: > > FreeBSD is available for the x86 PC architecture and the Alpha architecture. Work > is proceeding on a SPARC port, but I believe it is still in pre-alpha. I believe > the SPARC port has the at least tacet support of Sun. Work is also proceeding in the MIPS port, as recent commits indicate. The SPARC port, though, seems not to have anyone actually committed to it at Sun, which was the original case. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 1:27:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2960314D18 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:27:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA43729; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:26:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 04 Mar 1999 13:32:39 +0800." <36DE1AD9.17789F39@guru.wow.aust.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 01:26:58 -0800 Message-ID: <43725.920539618@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > (I guess I'm just very cautious about writing anything for 'FreeBSD' > rather than just for me. So, I'll happily stand up and write about my > personal experiences and opinions and stuff in a public forum, but I'd be > much more cautious about writing, in some sense, on behalf of a larger > group...) You really shouldn't feel this way. From the perspective of advocacy, each and every one of you are more than free (encouraged, cajoled, wheedled, begged) to speak on its behalf. You should naturally try and get your facts as straight as possible and not attempt to speak "for" FreeBSD in the sense that you're making commitments or predicting future policy, but aside from that the field is open. Grab a ball and run with it! We've also tried "suggesting projects" in the past ("write about ipfw! write about natd! write about creating a monster porn server!") but this doesn't tend to work in actual practice since people are much more inclined to actually finish an article on something they're personally comfortable with. A randomly selected topic is not likely to find a good match. Why not instead write an article based more directly on your own experiences with FreeBSD? If you've not done anything "interesting enough", in your own estimation, then pick a project that interests you and make learning it and writing an article about the process a parallel set of goals. Ever wanted to learn Apache/php3? How about a comprehensive review of server-side scripting languages (on FreeBSD) and where you might use them? There are topics literally lying on the ground at your feet - what is your INTEREST, that is the important question here! :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 2: 1:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D633915110 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 02:01:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.210.87]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990304100156.YLAI682101.mta1-rme@wocker>; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:01:56 +1300 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:01:34 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: what's in a name? Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <36DE1AD9.17789F39@guru.wow.aust.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990304100156.YLAI682101.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On 4 Mar 99, at 13:32, Jarvis Cochrane wrote: > (I guess I'm just very cautious about writing anything for 'FreeBSD' > rather than just for me. So, I'll happily stand up and write about my > personal experiences and opinions and stuff in a public forum, but I'd be > much more cautious about writing, in some sense, on behalf of a larger > group...) Neah! If anyone takes your writing and thrashes, bugger them. If you want to write something, just have a look at FreeBSD'zine (www.freebsdzine.org) [or indeed, my website ]. The authors there are not gurus or gods. They're just like you and me. Speaking for myself, I consider myself a newbie. I used some Unix at university and I've been using FreeBSD for about 10 months now. But I certainly don't know a great deal. But what I did for my website was write about what I was doing and how I did it. And I wrote it plain and simple. For other newbies. That's all you have to do. Stuff like that is invaluable! At least, that's what the feedback I've been getting. Just throw something together and put it to the freebsdzine and get it published. We proof read each others work. But don't be worried about making mistakes. We all make them. And they get corrected. I've never been flamed about mistakes. But when I'm unsure about something, I'm always careful to emphasize that point. So the next time you are installing a new port, or making some changes to your configuration, write those notes up and submit them. For sure, someone else will want to do the same thing and they'll be glad to have your article! -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 4:54:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428EB14FE0 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 04:54:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.ddns.org) Received: from pechter.ddns.org (bg-tc-ppp238.monmouth.com [209.191.60.239]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA26814; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:53:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.ddns.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) id HAA00598; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:53:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199903041253.HAA00598@pechter.ddns.org> Subject: Re: Crongratulations to all at USENIX In-Reply-To: <199903040217.NAA14038@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Andy Newman at "Mar 4, 1999 1:17: 8 pm" To: atrn@zeta.org.au (Andy Newman), freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:53:23 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > John Dyson writes: > > FreeBSD's future is not hanging on technical excellence right now, > > but on marketing. The technical excellence is a given. > > Although I didn't say it in the mail I was hoping to imply that > this technical excellence be used as a marketing angle ... Which > platform do researchers use for their Unix R&D? And why they pick > FreeBSD. Interesting, but Lucent's now using Linux. (*I keep pushing FreeBSD but Linux has more mind share*) Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 6:21: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from unix2.it-datacntr.louisville.edu (unix2.it-datacntr.louisville.edu [136.165.4.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 437F314E61 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 06:20:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from k.stevenson@louisville.edu) Received: from homer.louisville.edu (ktstev01@homer.louisville.edu [136.165.1.20]) by unix2.it-datacntr.louisville.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA39332 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:20:26 -0500 Received: (from ktstev01@localhost) by homer.louisville.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA26696 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:20:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990304092040.C16326@homer.louisville.edu> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:20:40 -0500 From: Keith Stevenson To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd supported References: <3.0.6.32.19990303215810.007c73d0@istar.ca> <36DE3EF1.6A7C1E3B@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <36DE3EF1.6A7C1E3B@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 05:06:09PM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 05:06:09PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > Innovative? As in, compared to pre-vm/360 machines??? I showed this to our mainframe administrators. They laughed a lot. While its cool that FreeBSD can be a guest OS, it would be much cooler if FreeBSD could be the host. Regards, --Keith Stevenson-- -- Keith Stevenson System Programmer - Data Center Services - University of Louisville k.stevenson@louisville.edu PGP key fingerprint = 4B 29 A8 95 A8 82 EA A2 29 CE 68 DE FC EE B6 A0 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 6:42:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from m4.stox.sa.enteract.com (stox.sa.enteract.com [207.229.132.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02BEA14EB5 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 06:42:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ken@stox.sa.enteract.com) Received: from localhost (localhost.stox.sa.enteract.com [127.0.0.1]) by m4.stox.sa.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.6.12) with ESMTP id IAA02526; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:41:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:41:41 -0600 (CST) From: "Kenneth P. Stox" Reply-To: stox@enteract.com To: Jarvis Cochrane Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <36DE1AD9.17789F39@guru.wow.aust.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I can't make a definate promise yet, but I approached the Marketing and P/R guy, who just joined my company, with this. He is interested and thinking about it. If he will join in, ( big if there ), I'd be willing to act as a central point of coordination for such efforts. More details as they are available.....( fingers crossed :-) -Ken On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Jarvis Cochrane wrote: > Donald Wilde wrote: > > > Major news orgs and trade e-zines have mailto:s on their contact pages > > and bylines. > > I think we might have a minor misunderstanding here... > > While I'm interested in writing BSD advocacy articles and submitting them > to news orgs and ezines, I'm not really prepared to do that without input > and direction from... well... the core team, I suppose. > > I suppose I was thinking of a process more like: > > (a) Someone suggests a good topic for an article ("3.1 released and it's > fabulous"). > (b) I write it. > (c) It gets posted somewhere for comment > (d) I submit it to... whoever... reuters :-) > > (I guess I'm just very cautious about writing anything for 'FreeBSD' > rather than just for me. So, I'll happily stand up and write about my > personal experiences and opinions and stuff in a public forum, but I'd be > much more cautious about writing, in some sense, on behalf of a larger > group...) > > Jarvis > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 7:48:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B3531504C for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:48:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-100.thuntek.net [207.66.52.100]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA15324; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:47:41 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DEAAB8.5BA21FCD@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 08:46:00 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <36DE10DF.3F57D6A7@guru.wow.aust.com> <36DE10F9.76429C52@thuntek.net> <36DE1AD9.17789F39@guru.wow.aust.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jarvis Cochrane wrote: > > Donald Wilde wrote: > > > Major news orgs and trade e-zines have mailto:s on their contact pages > > and bylines. > > I think we might have a minor misunderstanding here... > > While I'm interested in writing BSD advocacy articles and submitting them > to news orgs and ezines, I'm not really prepared to do that without input > and direction from... well... the core team, I suppose. > > I suppose I was thinking of a process more like: > > (a) Someone suggests a good topic for an article ("3.1 released and it's > fabulous"). > (b) I write it. > (c) It gets posted somewhere for comment > (d) I submit it to... whoever... reuters :-) > > (I guess I'm just very cautious about writing anything for 'FreeBSD' > rather than just for me. So, I'll happily stand up and write about my > personal experiences and opinions and stuff in a public forum, but I'd be > much more cautious about writing, in some sense, on behalf of a larger > group...) > > Jarvis I'm really glad to hear that. Caution is good. Too many have given us a bad name by engaging in flame wars and blatant misrepresentation in public forums. Fortunately, more LINUXen do that, so we still seem to have a better reputation. Jordan's advice to me has been to concentrate on articles for mainstream press outlets (not news outlets). We're getting more press in Dr. Dobbs and SysAdmin and places like that now. I've tried both InfoWorld and Popular Science, but neither picked up my submissions. Doesn't mean it wasn't worth trying, though, and the more we place ourselves squarely in front of their noses, the better reception we will get the next time, as long as we're polite and have our facts right. This mailing list is the place to post news items for critique. We will be glad to shoot holes in anything. ;-D As far as "writing on behalf of...", even the core team is only "writing on behalf of". You are as much FreeBSD as I am, as long as you ACT like you're a proud -- and accurate -- representative. I'm NOT anywhere close to being -core, but I keep learning and trying and making mistakes and trying some more. I get respect because I acknowledge my mistakes and try again. Another really positive thing you can do, which I'm working on pretty intensely, is making demos for local school groups. You can get writeups in local papers and LOTS of warm fuzzies from this, and you actually reach as many people as you would if you got a national blurb. Find -- or create -- a local Users' Group and make yourself a good example by putting your shoulder to the wheel. Ours was started by LINUXen, but it's now at least 50% FreeBSD and the LINUXen ask _us_ for advice and guidance. Most Users' Groups are hungry for leadership and goals. As long as you don't put down THEIR choices, eventually their choices will starty to look a lot like yours, and you've got them. :-D -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 8:14:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E4AF14BFD for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:14:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA73732; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:15:41 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990303215810.007c73d0@istar.ca> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:14:25 -0500 To: Dru , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: freebsd supported - VM Ware Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 9:58 PM -0500 3/3/99, Dru wrote: > Has anyone seen this yet? > > http://www.windowstechedge.com/wte-1999-03/wte-03-vmware.html?0301 > > Interesting concept. Even more interesting that FreeBSD is one > of the supported operating systems. Think of the ramifications: > users can compare FreeBSD to 7 other operating systems and decide > for themselves. I have noticed a few articles on this. It is quite interesting to me, too. One thing to note is that it supports FreeBSD as a guest operating system, but not as a host operating system. Initially it will run on linux as a host operating system, and a little later they hope to have it run on WinNT as a host operating system. For my own purposes, it would be much nicer to have freebsd or openbsd supported as a host operating system. I could setup a machine with linux and run vmware under that, but I know a lot more about administering FreeBSD than linux, and would rather have my main system be FreeBSD (OpenBSD would be fine with me too, since I like the emphasis on security that's in OpenBSD). I sent them a polite request to them, noting that I will probably buy a copy to run on linux, but I would feel a lot more comfortable if there were a freebsd version available. They said they are considering additional host platforms, and that they would save my request Perhaps it would be good (well, for me...) if a few other *BSD'ers might look at the product, too. If it is something that you really would buy, then send them along a similar request. See also http://www.vmware.com Please keep any messages to ADVOCATING freebsd, and not insulting them for writing a program for linux. The fact that they are testing (and mentioning) FreeBSD as a guest operating system shows that they already know FreeBSD is worth some attention. We just have to show that it's also a worthwhile investment for them to support it as a host operating system. If this program works as advertised, it could be a very useful program for someone like me. It looks like it could be great for debugging cross-platform issues of a given program, for instance. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 8:31:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.its.rpi.edu (mail1.its.rpi.edu [128.113.100.7]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C74F514BCC for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:31:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drosih@rpi.edu) Received: from [128.113.24.47] (gilead.acs.rpi.edu [128.113.24.47]) by mail1.its.rpi.edu (8.8.8/8.8.6) with ESMTP id LAA04134; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:32:09 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Sender: drosih@pop1.rpi.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36DE3EF1.6A7C1E3B@newsguy.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990303215810.007c73d0@istar.ca> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:30:52 -0500 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Dru From: Garance A Drosihn Subject: Re: freebsd supported Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 5:06 PM +0900 3/4/99, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >Dru wrote: >> >> Has anyone seen this yet? >> >> http://www.windowstechedge.com/wte-1999-03/wte-03-vmware.html?0301 >> >> Interesting concept. Even more interesting that FreeBSd is one of the >> supported operating systems. Think of the ramifications: users can compare >> FreeBSD to 7 other operating systems and decide for themselves. > > Innovative? As in, compared to pre-vm/360 machines??? Innovative, as in every time I have asked about this in the past, people have said that it was not possible to do this on the Intel chipsets. IBM hardware was designed to make this doable at near native-speeds, but (I have been told in the past) Intel's instruction set would have to be simulated to get it done right. The innovation isn't the "VM" idea, it's getting it to work on this particular hardware. --- Garance Alistair Drosehn = gad@eclipse.acs.rpi.edu Senior Systems Programmer or drosih@rpi.edu Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 8:44:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.toronto.istar.net (mail1.toronto.istar.net [209.89.75.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C8C2150A4 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 08:44:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from genisis@istar.ca) Received: from ts7-11.kin.istar.ca ([207.216.1.138] helo=genisis) by mail1.toronto.istar.net with smtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 10IbEL-00072e-00; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:44:15 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990304114814.007a8c00@istar.ca> X-Sender: genisis@istar.ca X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:48:14 -0500 To: Garance A Drosihn , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Dru Subject: Re: freebsd supported - VM Ware In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19990303215810.007c73d0@istar.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 11:14 AM 04/03/99 -0500, Garance A Drosihn wrote: >I sent them a polite request to them, noting that I will probably >buy a copy to run on linux, but I would feel a lot more comfortable >if there were a freebsd version available. They said they are >considering additional host platforms, and that they would save >my request > >Perhaps it would be good (well, for me...) if a few other *BSD'ers >might look at the product, too. If it is something that you really >would buy, then send them along a similar request. See also >http://www.vmware.com I had already signed up as a beta tester as we run all 7 OSs on the PCs at school. Of course, all 3 of my own PCs only run FreeBSD, so I'll have to beta test on a school machine ;^) Anyways, consider an e-mail sent to VmWare indicating my interest of buying a product with FreeBSD as the hosting OS. Dru I shall never forget that the probability of a miracle, though infinitesimally small, is never zero. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 9:42:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 861DA150F5 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:42:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27129; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:42:33 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd027043; Thu Mar 4 10:42:20 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA25246; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:42:18 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903041742.KAA25246@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: freebsd supported To: drosih@rpi.edu (Garance A Drosihn) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:42:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dcs@newsguy.com, genisis@istar.ca, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Garance A Drosihn" at Mar 4, 99 11:30:52 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Innovative, as in every time I have asked about this in the past, people > have said that it was not possible to do this on the Intel chipsets. That would be the people who have never installed a copy of "WinICE", a piece of software that can debug a protected mode OS (Windows 95/98/NT) using the "ICEBP" found in standard parts, but generally without the ICE pins and additional hardware, useless until WinICE. PS: WinICE is what FreeBSD's kernel debugged could be if it grew up. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 11:27:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C9AA015105 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:26:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 2307 invoked from network); 4 Mar 1999 19:25:44 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 19:25:44 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA00188; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:25:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903041925.OAA00188@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <36DEAAB8.5BA21FCD@thuntek.net> from Donald Wilde at "Mar 4, 99 08:46:00 am" To: dwilde1@thuntek.net (Donald Wilde) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:25:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde said: > > Jordan's advice to me has been to concentrate on articles for mainstream > press outlets (not news outlets). We're getting more press in Dr. Dobbs > and SysAdmin and places like that now. > That is very good, but only part of the needed strategy. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 11:41:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8DF3A15074 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:41:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 18287 invoked from network); 4 Mar 1999 19:41:00 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 19:41:00 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA00205; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:40:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903041940.OAA00205@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Crongratulations to all at USENIX In-Reply-To: <199903041253.HAA00598@pechter.ddns.org> from Bill Pechter at "Mar 4, 99 07:53:23 am" To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:40:53 -0500 (EST) Cc: atrn@zeta.org.au, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Bill Pechter said: > > John Dyson writes: > > > FreeBSD's future is not hanging on technical excellence right now, > > > but on marketing. The technical excellence is a given. > > > > Although I didn't say it in the mail I was hoping to imply that > > this technical excellence be used as a marketing angle ... Which > > platform do researchers use for their Unix R&D? And why they pick > > FreeBSD. > > Interesting, but Lucent's now using Linux. (*I keep pushing FreeBSD > but Linux has more mind share*) > Before the AT&T and Lucent split, I tried to convince the Inferno marketing to support FreeBSD -- to no avail, but they did support Linux. This was a long time ago, when frothing advocacy was more predominant in Linux (probably because there was little sane advocacy.) Before I left AT&T (after split), I had a strong possibility of a funded effort to work on FreeBSD, but I found a job in the Bay area which on the face of it looked better for FreeBSD. Alas, a combo of changes at my employer, and a problem with FreeBSD strategic direction, FreeBSD is now pretty much gone from there also... It is being used for development, but not in product. Where I work, there was a window for FreeBSD (which I believe that JKH, YAHOO and others opened), but that window closed with several unfortunate (for FreeBSD) events. I was the last very strong advocate. I could still advocate it, but without the multi-platform capabilities of the alternatives, (or a future direction more applicable than the alternatives for multi-platform support) I would appear to be one of those mindless and frothing people. Alas, this has made it hard for me to justify significant effort on FreeBSD, and mostly act as an advisor and user. (I get to hack on FreeBSD a little though, look forward to the time that I can allocate, and really enjoy it.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 16: 1:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D12914DF9 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:01:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-022.thuntek.net [207.66.52.22]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id RAA00316; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:00:39 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DF1E41.6113F592@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 16:58:57 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd supported References: <199903041742.KAA25246@usr07.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Terry Lambert wrote: > > PS: WinICE is what FreeBSD's kernel debugged could be if it grew up. > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- Dammit, Terry, instead of making snide remarks, why don't you go bug Intel for the undocumented register info and MAKE the debugger work that well! -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 16: 6:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E70E515104 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:06:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-022.thuntek.net [207.66.52.22]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id RAA04824; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:05:56 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36DF1F7E.A03B0D9D@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:04:14 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <199903041925.OAA00188@y.dyson.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG John S. Dyson wrote: > > Donald Wilde said: > > > > Jordan's advice to me has been to concentrate on articles for mainstream > > press outlets (not news outlets). We're getting more press in Dr. Dobbs > > and SysAdmin and places like that now. > > > That is very good, but only part of the needed strategy. > Of course, but if EACH of us does what he can, lots gets done. The main strategy has to be to get LOTS done. Lots of _high_class_ "lots", of course. BTW, glad to see you back, John. Can I hope that your educated touch is again being applied to the -core code? -- oooOOO O O O o * * * * * * o ___ _________ _________ _________ ___==__ V_=_=_DW ===--- Don Wilde dwilde1@thuntek.net [ = = ] /oo0000oo-oo--oo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-ooo---ooo-oo---oo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 17:13:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A2D0B150E3 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:13:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 13339 invoked from network); 5 Mar 1999 01:12:48 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 5 Mar 1999 01:12:48 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA02502; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:12:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903050112.UAA02502@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <36DF1F7E.A03B0D9D@thuntek.net> from Donald Wilde at "Mar 4, 99 05:04:14 pm" To: dwilde1@thuntek.net (Donald Wilde) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:12:48 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde said: > > BTW, glad to see you back, John. Can I hope that your educated touch is > again being applied to the -core code? > I am in the periphery, trying to help. I cannot really be in a position of time consuming responsibility, but do want FreeBSD to flourish. I think that the ALC/Matt team (which I am helping with in the background) has a really good chance of doing well. The mix of Matt's energy and ALC's very in-depth knowledge (not to compare the two, but to extoll the substantial virtues of each) has a potential of being "magic." There is a chance of small amounts being contributed to that team being multiplied by them into amazing feats. Ideas should be presented to ALC and/or Matt... ALC has been helping me with VM issues (when I was working on the code) for a few years. Some of the bits 'n pieces that he had helped me(us) with were alot more valuable than it might seem on the surface. In fact, with him, Tor Egge and a few others, it made working on the VM code personally much more satisfying in the last few years, than it might have been. The key to things working are the mix of energy and structure both. The FreeBSD code is no longer able to be "hacked on" due to it being more and more critical in it's application. The more formal review process will help keep quality high, only slowing down innovation slightly, but erasing one of the costs of innovation being instability. When I was working on it, a lack of structure (which it should have been my responsibility to impose) was a significant problem. I think that FreeBSD will be getting the best of all worlds with the new, evolving situation. I'll be feeding info and help to ALC (supporting him when he sees fit), but cannot be a key player in FreeBSD. I suspect that I have enough influence to help, when needed, but as time is moving on during this evolution, things will become stronger and stronger -- perhaps more institutional, working on a "team" basis. The good thing is that the current constituents will probably be able to "add" their skills (things are still settling out, but I feel that the future bodes well, with a only little more self-organizing needed.) My real interest is in a new project that I still haven't made enough progress yet, but the FreeBSD work is still a love of mine and am very satisifed with what is now happening. IMO, the future of FreeBSD is more in the hands of marketing than in technical achievement -- and the future of my project will be depending on the *BSD's in general (with a personal bias towards FreeBSD.) I want/need for FreeBSD to succeed. As a side-note, since I am dependent on innovation being a sellable skill, I want to see codebases out there that can be used as fuel for developers, marketeers, and end users. *BSD's have a good (if not nearly ideal) license for almost everyone in the economic foodchain. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 18:18:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from foobar.franken.de (foobar.franken.de [194.94.249.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39D4515145 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:18:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from logix@foobar.franken.de) Received: (from logix@localhost) by foobar.franken.de (8.8.8/8.8.5) id DAA10625; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 03:16:24 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <19990305031624.A10616@foobar.franken.de> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 03:16:24 +0100 From: Harold Gutch To: Terry Lambert , Garance A Drosihn Cc: dcs@newsguy.com, genisis@istar.ca, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd supported References: <199903041742.KAA25246@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199903041742.KAA25246@usr07.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 05:42:17PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 05:42:17PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > That would be the people who have never installed a copy of "WinICE", > a piece of software that can debug a protected mode OS (Windows 95/98/NT) > using the "ICEBP" found in standard parts, but generally without the ICE > pins and additional hardware, useless until WinICE. > Are you talking of "SoftICE" (or the Windows version of it, hence the name) or are these 2 different debuggers ? bye, Harold -- Sleep is an abstinence syndrome wich occurs due to lack of caffein. Wed Mar 4 04:53:33 CET 1998 #unix, ircnet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 19: 6:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E6A15109 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:04:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20223; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:04:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd020195; Thu Mar 4 20:04:28 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA22223; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:04:26 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903050304.UAA22223@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: freebsd supported To: dwilde1@thuntek.net (Donald Wilde) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 03:04:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36DF1E41.6113F592@thuntek.net> from "Donald Wilde" at Mar 4, 99 04:58:57 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > PS: WinICE is what FreeBSD's kernel debugged could be if it grew up. > > Dammit, Terry, instead of making snide remarks, why don't you go bug > Intel for the undocumented register info and MAKE the debugger work that > well! ICEBP is well documented, both in "The Undocumented PC", and in the various MindShare x86 Architecture books. I can't do the work for FreeBSD until it adopts GGI, and supports ELF sections other than merely "BSS", "code", and "data" in the KLD and in the boot loader. The GGI people have been looking for someone (with commit priviledges, obviously) to do a FreeBSD port, and have gone so far as to put the kernel pieces of their predominantly Linux project *in the public domain*. Contingent on these changes, the code would have to be committed to FreeBSD proper if the changes were not made. I'd be happy to do what is, in effect, severable code, once the GGI and section support goes in, since then I wouldn't have to worry about it being committed, since it could be simply a KLD. So back at you: you want applications developement, then provide the interfaces for application developement. I'm not going to do code that can be vetoed; I've tried that before, and it doesn't work. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Mar 4 19:20:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A81814D74 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:20:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15934; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:20:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd015915; Thu Mar 4 20:20:18 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA23357; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:20:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903050320.UAA23357@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: freebsd supported To: logix@foobar.franken.de (Harold Gutch) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 03:20:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, drosih@rpi.edu, dcs@newsguy.com, genisis@istar.ca, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990305031624.A10616@foobar.franken.de> from "Harold Gutch" at Mar 5, 99 03:16:24 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > That would be the people who have never installed a copy of "WinICE", > > a piece of software that can debug a protected mode OS (Windows 95/98/NT) > > using the "ICEBP" found in standard parts, but generally without the ICE > > pins and additional hardware, useless until WinICE. > > Are you talking of "SoftICE" (or the Windows version of it, hence > the name) or are these 2 different debuggers ? Yes. The old version I had was called WinICE, so I've had that firmly lodged in my brain, even after the name change. Either that, or the name is different under 95 vs. NT (don't think it is). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 5 3:21:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from regpc30.murdoch.edu.au (regpc30.murdoch.edu.au [134.115.241.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46048150CD for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 03:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com) Received: from guru.wow.aust.com (regmac23.murdoch.edu.au [134.115.241.182]) by regpc30.murdoch.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA26078; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 19:20:00 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com) Message-ID: <36DFBDE6.C96533C5@guru.wow.aust.com> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 19:21:01 +0800 From: Jarvis Cochrane Reply-To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lbruno@cmp.com Cc: "freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Re: Technical questions about BSD References: <8525672A.0029E66C.00@NotesSMTP-01.cmp.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Lee, An answer to another of your questions... > > First, I am > > curious to know how many thousands of lines of code make up the BSD kernel? I counted lines of code by running the following commands in the /usr/src/sys directory - the source code for the FreeBSD kernel (Version 2.2.8, BTW). wc -l `find ./ -name "*.c" -print` gives 525,527 lines of 'c' code, including comments wc -l `find ./ -name "*.h" -print` gives 108,923 lines of C header files, including comments. wc -l `find ./ -name "*.s" -print` gives 8,562 lines of assembly language files, including comments. So the kernel sources for FreeBSD 2.2.8 total some 644,012 lines of code and comments. Adding to that, the kernel code _may_ (I haven't checked this) compile some standard C library functions into the code, which would increase the number of lines of code in the kernel. However, I think it would be very rare for a production kernel to be configured to contain all of the available device drivers and options available, using less code and making the resulting kernel smaller. For example, the 2.2.8 'GENERIC' kernel is 1,601,351 bytes on my system. My custom configured kernel is only 984,922 bytes - 61% of the size. This is probably _way_ more detail than you needed! Lets just call it 650 thousand lines of code! Jarvis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 5 7:38:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A3B41514C for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:38:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA13719; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:37:16 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36DFFA26.CD53C6DD@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 08:37:10 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jarvis@guru.wow.aust.com Cc: lbruno@cmp.com, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Technical questions about BSD References: <8525672A.00205CC7.00@NotesSMTP-01.cmp.com> <36DE3633.566B1C58@guru.wow.aust.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jarvis Cochrane wrote: > > Lee, > > I'm far from the being the most knowledgeable person on this list, but perhaps I > can make a start on your questions... > > lbruno@cmp.com wrote: > > > I'm in the process of writing a feature story about open source Linux and BSD. > > I'm doing some comparisons between them and commercial NOSes such as Netware and > > NT. However, I have a few unresolved questions I need answered. > > > First, I am > > curious to know how many thousands of lines of code make up the BSD kernel? > > I can't help you with this. Perhaps another 'lister' will be able to? 953,409 raw lines in .c and .h files, as of 3.0-RELEASE. > > Second, what hardware platforms does it run on Intel, SPARC, Amiga, > > Alpha---etc.? > > FreeBSD is available for the x86 PC architecture and the Alpha architecture. Work > is proceeding on a SPARC port, but I believe it is still in pre-alpha. I believe > the SPARC port has the at least tacet support of Sun. Actually, it's currently pre-booting. ;^) > > What scripting languages can be used with BSD-- such as TCL, C, > > C++, PERL, Java, Bourne, Korn ...etc.? > > All of theses are supported (TCL, Perl and java tools are available in the ports > collection). The standard OS installation includes a pretty complete collection of > development tools - debuggers, assemblers, make, etc. C, C++, Fortran, Ada -- any GNU compiled language is available. The DEC Modula-3 compiler is available too. > > What is the minimum footprint of hard disk > > memory that BSD can run on? > > PicoBSD will boot from a floppy disk. This distribution is sufficient to allow the > user to use PPP and telnet. PicoBSD is designed to be used as platform for > dedicated systems such as routers or firewalls. > > I have run a complete and very useful FreeBSD system on a Toshiba laptop with a 200 > Mbyte hard drive. Perhaps it was even smaller than that - I forget exactly! I used to run a little "server" box on a 386sx/16 with 5MB RAM and a 100MB disk. It was a source code server for a small source code base. > > Can you point out any other significant differences > > between FreeBSD and other versions of BSD, such as OpenBSD and NetBSD? > > NetBSD's specialty is running the same distribution on 'every machine under the > sun.' Or the Apple, or the Atari, or the Amiga, or the HP, etc. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 5 8:28:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3206E1515D; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:28:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA03398; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:27:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990305092628.00c111a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 09:27:40 -0700 To: Wes Peters , Louis Bertrand From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: what's in a name? Cc: Jim Mock , eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy In-Reply-To: <36DD5C3F.A0FC6C1F@softweyr.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 08:58 AM 3/3/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >I can if I deny there is a problem. I don't have any personal need >for FreeBSD to become a whopping commercial success; I do not seek >the validation of the marketplace for my choices in using and >contributing to FreeBSD. How's that for denial? It's not denial. It's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's NOT! ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 5 16:23:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.93.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 953011527C for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 16:23:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA14140 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 19:23:20 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 19:23:20 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Forwarded mail.... IBM and FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG I haven't called them yet, but here was their response from my filling out a web form asking about FreeBSD. Presumably this comes down to supply and demand... But perhaps WC wants to talk to them? Robert N Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ Safeport Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 5 Mar 99 17:10:13 MST From: askibm@VNET.IBM.COM To: robert@fledge.watson.org IBM-CALLOWN INTERNET RESPONSE FACILITY To......: robert@fledge.watson.org Subject.: IBM BUSINESS PARTNER AND SUPPLIER RELATIONS INFORMATION Dear Mr. Watson, Thank you for contacting IBM. If you would like IBM to consider using your FreeBSD software, please prepare and submit a formal proposal to our Supplier Relations Department at the following e-mail address: supplier_relations@vnet.ibm.com Should you prefer to speak to a representative, please call the IBM Customer Service Center at 1-800-426-4968, and ask to be connected to the Supplier Relations Department. Should you wish to become an IBM Business Partner to supply software solutions and products, please contact the IBM Partnerline or BESTeam by calling 1-800-426-9990. An IBM representative will be happy to assist you further. Additional information on the IBM Business Partner Programs may be obtained by visiting the following IBM Web site: http://www.ibm.com/partners/ Thank you for using the IBM Electronic Response System. Linda (l.J.) Grant (ASKIBM@vnet.ibm.com) IBM Internet Support Group 1-800-IBM-4YOU CALLOWN Log Number: 1216025 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Received: from content11c.advantis.com [204.146.18.211] by vnet.IBM.COM (IBM VM SMTP V2R4a) via TCP with SMTP ; Wed, 03 Mar 1999 23:32:08 2 E Received: (from nobody@localhost) by content11c.advantis.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id EAA29792; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 04:32:17 GMT Message-Id: <199903040432.EAA29792@content11c.advantis.com> Date: Thu Mar 4 04:32:16 1999 To: askibm@vnet.ibm.com, ibmweb2@us.ibm.com From: robert@fledge.watson.org (Robert Watson) Subject: Solutions: IBM support for Linux--how about FreeBSD? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Thu Mar 4 04:32:16 1999 From: robert@fledge.watson.org (Robert Watson) Subject: Solutions: IBM support for Linux--how about FreeBSD? User-agent: Mozilla/4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386; Nav) Remote-host: TROJANHORSE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.91.224] Country-code: us (United States) Referred-from: http://www.software.ibm.com/is/mp/linux/ Privacy: YES Category: Solutions Profile: Prospective customer ----------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD is a power server-class operating system available for a number of platforms (primarily Intel and Alpha-based). As with Linux, it is open source, only with a longer history as based on the Berkeley UNIX. Unlike Linux, it offers a liberal license that does not require the application of GPL to ones own code when extending the existing code. This makes it far more appealing to corporations who want to invest in software development, but not necessarily give away their work when reselling machines. With your support of Linux, we are hopeful that you will add support for FreeBSD also. For more information, please visit http://www.freebsd.org/ For our company, FreeBSD provides superior licensing, flexibility, and unlike Linux, source code maturity. Thanks, and I look forward to hearing from you (especially as we are currently in the market for a number of server machines and workstations :-). ----------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 5 20:56:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6389414D95; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:56:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25248; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:56:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:56:13 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: Paul Griffith Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <36DDF41C.3230EB48@interlog.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Peter Philippe and I were talking about having a "MyBSD" thing going, but it was when we were disgruntled about support being dropped when it came to 2.2.8-STABLE stuff. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY ___________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Paul Griffith wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > > But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in > > > > trouble with Nike. > > > > > > TerryBSD lives! > > > > I prefer Win/BSD. > > > > Terry Lambert > > terry@lambert.org > > Hey don't give Microsoft any ideas. Next thing you know we have a MS > Press Release pre-announcing WinBSD 2000 with Native Linux Support. > > I kinda like MyBSD "Have It Your Way" :-) > > -- > Paul Griffith <> paulg@interlog.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Mar 5 23: 9: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 752B215106 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:08:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 21005 invoked by alias); 6 Mar 1999 07:08:36 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 20963 invoked by uid 0); 6 Mar 1999 07:08:36 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 6 Mar 1999 07:08:36 -0000 Message-ID: <36E0D473.742A5C89@uswest.net> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 23:08:35 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pat Lynch Cc: Paul Griffith , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG [format recovered] Pat Lynch wrote: >On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Paul Griffith wrote: >>Terry Lambert wrote: >>>>> But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in >>>>> trouble with Nike. >>>> >>>> TerryBSD lives! >>> >>> I prefer Win/BSD. >> >> Hey don't give Microsoft any ideas. Next thing you know we have a MS >> Press Release pre-announcing WinBSD 2000 with Native Linux Support. >> >> I kinda like MyBSD "Have It Your Way" :-) > >Peter Philippe and I were talking about having a "MyBSD" thing going, but >it was when we were disgruntled about support being dropped when it came >to 2.2.8-STABLE stuff. How about Freenix? Or has that one been taken/suggested already? -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 6 9:36:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB8D15278; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 09:36:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12963; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:35:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd012937; Sat Mar 6 10:35:50 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01139; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:35:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903061735.KAA01139@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: what's in a name? To: dpilgrim@uswest.net (Nocturne) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:35:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lynch@rush.net, paulg@interlog.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36E0D473.742A5C89@uswest.net> from "Nocturne" at Mar 5, 99 11:08:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > >Peter Philippe and I were talking about having a "MyBSD" thing going, but > >it was when we were disgruntled about support being dropped when it came > >to 2.2.8-STABLE stuff. > > How about Freenix? Or has that one been taken/suggested already? The reason this question keeps raising its ugly head is the negative marketing value of the "Free" in "FreeBSD". It's probably not go over well in "Freenix", either. I think "Mustard" might be best. I can see it now: "Get a clue: run Mustard Kernel in the Library with an IBM PC". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 6 10:18:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C05152D0; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:18:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gummibear@we.mediaone.net) Received: from gummibear (we-24-130-60-137.we.mediaone.net [24.130.60.137]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04996; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:17:53 -0800 (PST) From: gummibear@we.mediaone.net Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990306102112.007ada60@we.mediaone.net> X-Sender: gummibear@we.mediaone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 10:21:12 -0800 To: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Concerning PC Mags pitiful mention of FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey all! I'm writing to let you know about something that really bugged me in PC Magazine. Ok, this is concerning the ariticle in PC Magazine's March edition (Vol. 18, No. 6 Marche 23, 1999). To make a long story short, they had like too articles on Linux and the GPL. The first one was some editors note, then the other was a full blown Unix timeline, installation guide, and comparisons between 4 different distributions. Well actually, they called it more of an "Open Source" aritcle. Not just a Linux article. Okay, I guess I can get passed the Linux thing. What bugged me the most is that they explained the differences between the GPL and the BSD license (very brieftly). They even sort of made the BSD license sound kinda bad. And they went on to mention that FreeBSD and Apache was under the BSD license but in *really* small print. FreeBSD also got a brief mention in their "timeline". But it never really went to explaining what FreeBSD is. That's what bugged me!! grrrrr Well, okay so the Linux article bugged me too. If they're gonna claim to be talking about Open Source Software then don't just mention *one* damn Operating System when there is alot more than just one. Hell, they didn't even really mention Hurd (which is GPL). It just goes to show their ignorance. I'm considering writing the editor a letter explaining the merits of the BSD license and also explaining how great the BSD's are. Sure they have a time line that mentions BSD, but they seem not to appreciate what BSD has done for us. If not for BSD and the CSRG (the DoD too) the Internet might have not happpened. The Internet!! Something that we all have grown to love (or hate -- if you get alot of spam or your gf ran off with some guy that she met on IRC). Maybe if these Magazine editors got enough mail about the BSD's (BSDi, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD) they might publish a similar article. We have to remind them of all the big Internet players that run BSD based software. It might work. Anyways, I just needed to vent. Thanks for listening. Joey PS If you want to contact the editor, here's his email address: pcmag@zd.com ================================================================ Joey Bear Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net ================================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 6 18:31:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB2AA152EB; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 18:31:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10JTLN-000GyQ-0C; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 02:31:06 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id CAA00634; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 02:30:52 GMT Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00338; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 02:26:22 GMT (envelope-from marko) Message-ID: <19990307022622.C216@localhost> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 02:26:22 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <36E0D473.742A5C89@uswest.net> <199903061735.KAA01139@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199903061735.KAA01139@usr06.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 05:35:48PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 05:35:48PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I think "Mustard" might be best. I can see it now: > > "Get a clue: run Mustard Kernel in the Library with an IBM PC". > :-) > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Mar 6 20: 1:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.93.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 250E614F96 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:01:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA03984 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 23:01:27 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 23:01:26 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Pricing a moderate workstation machine for development and co nferencing (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On asking Dell for more details. Robert N Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ Safeport Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:31:44 -0600 From: "Sales, US" To: 'Robert Watson' Subject: RE: Pricing a moderate workstation machine for development and co nferencing Dear Robert At this time we do not offer computer systems without Microsoft application software. We are aware of the growing demand for Linux and its many flavors. We are currently watching the development of this market at this time. I will be happy to go over the specifics of the components if you are researching for drivers. Let us know if there is anything that we can do and we'll be happy to help. Please check our web site for more information on what computers options are available. -- Kent Seaton Gateway Internet Specialist mailto:sales@gateway.com Hours: Friday-Tuesday 8am-5pm, Central Standard Time. Please include all correspondence when replying with further questions. -----Original Message----- From: Robert Watson [mailto:robert@cyrus.watson.org] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 1999 3:12 PM To: sales@gateway.com Subject: Re: Pricing a moderate workstation machine for development and conferencing Gateway, Your lack of response on pricing a simple workstation is a little disappointing. It has been over a month now since I requested a quote. Is there a problem I should be aware of? On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Robert Watson wrote: > Gateway, > > I'm currently pricing a machine to use as a development workstation. I > was wondering if you can provide quotes by email? > > If so, here's an approximate description: > > PII 400 or 450Mhz > 128MB of memory > 21" monitor > No need for 3d acceleration on the video card, but performance for video > conferencing an large-scale window systems/frame buffers is important. > Similarly, a sound card suitable for use in moderate quality > video-conferencing. > 10/100baset ethernet card > SCSI disk subsystem with: > At least 6gig hard disk (largely disk cache for a distributed file > system such as AFS) > CD-ROM drive (any speed) > Ergonomic keyboard, mouse > No modem > No need for a backup device > No Applications > FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE operating system, with X-windows (XIG or XFree86) > > Please let me know about how much such a machine might cost at current > prices; it might be a little while before I get around to buying it, but > I'd like to get a feel for the approximate cost for a reasonable machine > is. > > Robert N Watson > > robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ > PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C > > Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ > TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ > SafePort Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ > > > Robert N Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ Safeport Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message