From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 4 11:54:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.jorsm.com (mercury.jorsm.com [207.112.128.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBA7715510 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 11:53:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jer@jorsm.com) Received: from localhost (jer@localhost) by mercury.jorsm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA09825 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:53:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 13:53:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremy Shaffner To: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Request for More Submissions Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Whenever there is a Linux conference or expo, there's at least one story posted on Slashdot every day. There has only been one story on FreeBSDCon (last month). On Friday I sent in a submission with links to the Program Overview and Event Schedule (recently updated last week.) They haven't yet posted it. If enough of us submitting it, maybe they won't look/toss it over. -=========================================================================- Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet, Regional Internet Services System Administrator 7 Area Codes in Chicagoland and NW Indiana jer@jorsm.com 100Mbps+ Connectivity, 56K-DS3, V.90, ISDN support@jorsm.com Quality Service, Affordable Prices http://www.jorsm.com Serving Gov't, Business, Individuals Since 1995 -=========================================================================- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 4 12:24:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB3941555F for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 12:23:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11005; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:23:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 15:23:04 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Jeremy Shaffner Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > Whenever there is a Linux conference or expo, there's at least one story > posted on Slashdot every day. There has only been one story on FreeBSDCon > (last month). > > On Friday I sent in a submission with links to the Program Overview and > Event Schedule (recently updated last week.) They haven't yet posted it. If you go back to the "submit story" page, and you're logged in, you'll see the status of your submission. I've posted a number of items about the latest issue of Daemon News including the SMP comparison story and they were all rejected. Brett ***************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 4 17: 5:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA5041529E for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:05:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gryph@mindless.com) Received: from mindless.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11816; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:01:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37F94070.5B8E0561@mindless.com> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 17:04:00 -0700 From: "D.M.P." Organization: dmp@aracnet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Shaffner Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > Whenever there is a Linux conference or expo, there's at least one story > posted on Slashdot every day. There has only been one story on FreeBSDCon > (last month). > > On Friday I sent in a submission with links to the Program Overview and > Event Schedule (recently updated last week.) They haven't yet posted it. > > If enough of us submitting it, maybe they won't look/toss it over. Myself and at least six other people I know have submitted the FreeBSDCon program for posting on /. and all of us were rejected. As a matter of fact, the only things I have ever had posted were either pro-Linux or unrelated to computer software. I've since drawn the conclusion that the people running Slashdot have lost any objectivity they may have had. -- "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of the human mind." -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 4 17:35:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.jorsm.com (mercury.jorsm.com [207.112.128.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B524215379 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jer@jorsm.com) Received: from localhost (jer@localhost) by mercury.jorsm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA27756; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:34:53 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 19:34:53 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremy Shaffner To: "D.M.P." Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions In-Reply-To: <37F94070.5B8E0561@mindless.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG One would think that with the up & coming BSD feature section on Slashdot that they wouldn't casually toss BSD related submissions aside. -=========================================================================- Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet, Regional Internet Services System Administrator 7 Area Codes in Chicagoland and NW Indiana jer@jorsm.com 100Mbps+ Connectivity, 56K-DS3, V.90, ISDN support@jorsm.com Quality Service, Affordable Prices http://www.jorsm.com Serving Gov't, Business, Individuals Since 1995 -=========================================================================- On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, D.M.P. wrote: > Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > > > Whenever there is a Linux conference or expo, there's at least one story > > posted on Slashdot every day. There has only been one story on FreeBSDCon > > (last month). > > > > On Friday I sent in a submission with links to the Program Overview and > > Event Schedule (recently updated last week.) They haven't yet posted it. > > > > If enough of us submitting it, maybe they won't look/toss it over. > > Myself and at least six other people I know have submitted the > FreeBSDCon program for posting on /. and all of us were rejected. As > a matter of fact, the only things I have ever had posted were either > pro-Linux or unrelated to computer software. > > I've since drawn the conclusion that the people running Slashdot have > lost any objectivity they may have had. > > -- > "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth > and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of > the human mind." -- Cicero > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 4 18:23: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8328A150F2 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 18:22:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: from localhost (chrisc@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01749; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:22:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Jeremy Shaffner Cc: "D.M.P." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, post them do DN Daily and you will see them. http://daily.daemonnews.org Chris Coleman Daemon News Editor in Chief http://www.daemonnews.org Bringing BSD together On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > One would think that with the up & coming BSD feature section on Slashdot > that they wouldn't casually toss BSD related submissions aside. > > > -=========================================================================- > Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet, Regional Internet Services > System Administrator 7 Area Codes in Chicagoland and NW Indiana > jer@jorsm.com 100Mbps+ Connectivity, 56K-DS3, V.90, ISDN > support@jorsm.com Quality Service, Affordable Prices > http://www.jorsm.com Serving Gov't, Business, Individuals Since 1995 > -=========================================================================- > > > On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, D.M.P. wrote: > > > Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > > > > > Whenever there is a Linux conference or expo, there's at least one story > > > posted on Slashdot every day. There has only been one story on FreeBSDCon > > > (last month). > > > > > > On Friday I sent in a submission with links to the Program Overview and > > > Event Schedule (recently updated last week.) They haven't yet posted it. > > > > > > If enough of us submitting it, maybe they won't look/toss it over. > > > > Myself and at least six other people I know have submitted the > > FreeBSDCon program for posting on /. and all of us were rejected. As > > a matter of fact, the only things I have ever had posted were either > > pro-Linux or unrelated to computer software. > > > > I've since drawn the conclusion that the people running Slashdot have > > lost any objectivity they may have had. > > > > -- > > "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth > > and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of > > the human mind." -- Cicero > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 4 18:29:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.jorsm.com (mercury.jorsm.com [207.112.128.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3240C15177 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 18:29:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jer@jorsm.com) Received: from localhost (jer@localhost) by mercury.jorsm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id UAA06033; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:27:03 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:27:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremy Shaffner To: Chris Coleman Cc: "D.M.P." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hm..thought that was were I first saw it myself. It not, consider it done. -=========================================================================- Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet, Regional Internet Services System Administrator 7 Area Codes in Chicagoland and NW Indiana jer@jorsm.com 100Mbps+ Connectivity, 56K-DS3, V.90, ISDN support@jorsm.com Quality Service, Affordable Prices http://www.jorsm.com Serving Gov't, Business, Individuals Since 1995 -=========================================================================- On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Chris Coleman wrote: > Well, post them do DN Daily and you will see them. > > http://daily.daemonnews.org > > Chris Coleman > Daemon News Editor in Chief > http://www.daemonnews.org > Bringing BSD together > > On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > > > > One would think that with the up & coming BSD feature section on Slashdot > > that they wouldn't casually toss BSD related submissions aside. > > > > > > -=========================================================================- > > Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet, Regional Internet Services > > System Administrator 7 Area Codes in Chicagoland and NW Indiana > > jer@jorsm.com 100Mbps+ Connectivity, 56K-DS3, V.90, ISDN > > support@jorsm.com Quality Service, Affordable Prices > > http://www.jorsm.com Serving Gov't, Business, Individuals Since 1995 > > -=========================================================================- > > > > > > On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, D.M.P. wrote: > > > > > Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > > > > > > > Whenever there is a Linux conference or expo, there's at least one story > > > > posted on Slashdot every day. There has only been one story on FreeBSDCon > > > > (last month). > > > > > > > > On Friday I sent in a submission with links to the Program Overview and > > > > Event Schedule (recently updated last week.) They haven't yet posted it. > > > > > > > > If enough of us submitting it, maybe they won't look/toss it over. > > > > > > Myself and at least six other people I know have submitted the > > > FreeBSDCon program for posting on /. and all of us were rejected. As > > > a matter of fact, the only things I have ever had posted were either > > > pro-Linux or unrelated to computer software. > > > > > > I've since drawn the conclusion that the people running Slashdot have > > > lost any objectivity they may have had. > > > > > > -- > > > "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth > > > and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of > > > the human mind." -- Cicero > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 4 18:35:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 695B3151A3 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 18:34:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 95737 invoked from network); 5 Oct 1999 01:34:42 -0000 Received: from 207-229-172-153.d.enteract.com (HELO wildrock) (207.229.172.153) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 5 Oct 1999 01:34:42 -0000 From: "Chris Silva" To: "Jeremy Shaffner" , "D.M.P." Cc: Subject: RE: Request for More Submissions Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 20:35:10 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Enter - makeworld.com ;) > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Jeremy Shaffner > Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 7:35 PM > To: D.M.P. > Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions > > > > One would think that with the up & coming BSD feature section on Slashdot > that they wouldn't casually toss BSD related submissions aside. > > > -================================================================= > ========- > Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet, Regional Internet Services > System Administrator 7 Area Codes in Chicagoland and NW Indiana > jer@jorsm.com 100Mbps+ Connectivity, 56K-DS3, V.90, ISDN > support@jorsm.com Quality Service, Affordable Prices > http://www.jorsm.com Serving Gov't, Business, Individuals Since 1995 > -================================================================= > ========- > > > On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, D.M.P. wrote: > > > Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > > > > > Whenever there is a Linux conference or expo, there's at > least one story > > > posted on Slashdot every day. There has only been one story > on FreeBSDCon > > > (last month). > > > > > > On Friday I sent in a submission with links to the Program > Overview and > > > Event Schedule (recently updated last week.) They haven't > yet posted it. > > > > > > If enough of us submitting it, maybe they won't look/toss it over. > > > > Myself and at least six other people I know have submitted the > > FreeBSDCon program for posting on /. and all of us were rejected. As > > a matter of fact, the only things I have ever had posted were either > > pro-Linux or unrelated to computer software. > > > > I've since drawn the conclusion that the people running Slashdot have > > lost any objectivity they may have had. > > > > -- > > "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth > > and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of > > the human mind." -- Cicero > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 4 18:36:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from vnode.vmunix.com (vnode.vmunix.com [209.112.4.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D921151A3 for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 18:36:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chrisc@vmunix.com) Received: from localhost (chrisc@localhost) by vnode.vmunix.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01815; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:36:09 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:36:09 -0400 (EDT) From: Chris Coleman To: Jeremy Shaffner Cc: "D.M.P." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Hm..thought that was were I first saw it myself. It not, consider it > done. :-) We could also post some stuff about BoF's, Dinner's , incidental organized events that would never make it on Slashdot. Slashdot always posts lots of stuff prior to events. We are going to want to hype Lisa99 also. BSD is growing ... :-) Chris Coleman Daemon News Editor in Chief http://www.daemonnews.org Bringing BSD together On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > > -=========================================================================- > Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet, Regional Internet Services > System Administrator 7 Area Codes in Chicagoland and NW Indiana > jer@jorsm.com 100Mbps+ Connectivity, 56K-DS3, V.90, ISDN > support@jorsm.com Quality Service, Affordable Prices > http://www.jorsm.com Serving Gov't, Business, Individuals Since 1995 > -=========================================================================- > > > On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Chris Coleman wrote: > > > Well, post them do DN Daily and you will see them. > > > > http://daily.daemonnews.org > > > > Chris Coleman > > Daemon News Editor in Chief > > http://www.daemonnews.org > > Bringing BSD together > > > > On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > > > > > > > One would think that with the up & coming BSD feature section on Slashdot > > > that they wouldn't casually toss BSD related submissions aside. > > > > > > > > > -=========================================================================- > > > Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet, Regional Internet Services > > > System Administrator 7 Area Codes in Chicagoland and NW Indiana > > > jer@jorsm.com 100Mbps+ Connectivity, 56K-DS3, V.90, ISDN > > > support@jorsm.com Quality Service, Affordable Prices > > > http://www.jorsm.com Serving Gov't, Business, Individuals Since 1995 > > > -=========================================================================- > > > > > > > > > On Mon, 4 Oct 1999, D.M.P. wrote: > > > > > > > Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Whenever there is a Linux conference or expo, there's at least one story > > > > > posted on Slashdot every day. There has only been one story on FreeBSDCon > > > > > (last month). > > > > > > > > > > On Friday I sent in a submission with links to the Program Overview and > > > > > Event Schedule (recently updated last week.) They haven't yet posted it. > > > > > > > > > > If enough of us submitting it, maybe they won't look/toss it over. > > > > > > > > Myself and at least six other people I know have submitted the > > > > FreeBSDCon program for posting on /. and all of us were rejected. As > > > > a matter of fact, the only things I have ever had posted were either > > > > pro-Linux or unrelated to computer software. > > > > > > > > I've since drawn the conclusion that the people running Slashdot have > > > > lost any objectivity they may have had. > > > > > > > > -- > > > > "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth > > > > and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of > > > > the human mind." -- Cicero > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Mon Oct 4 21: 5:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7111D14BEA for ; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 21:05:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [204.68.178.39] (helo=softweyr.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 11YLqX-0001Yf-00; Mon, 4 Oct 1999 22:05:02 -0600 Message-ID: <37F978ED.F9DC2479@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1999 22:05:01 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Coleman Cc: Jeremy Shaffner , "D.M.P." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Coleman wrote: > > > > > Hm..thought that was were I first saw it myself. It not, consider it > > done. > > :-) > > We could also post some stuff about BoF's, Dinner's , incidental organized > events that would never make it on Slashdot. But should. Speaking of which, are we planning on having a Daemon News BoF? I've not gotten any reponse so far. The event calendar is fairly full. > Slashdot always posts lots of stuff prior to events. We are going to want > to hype Lisa99 also. BSD is growing ... :-) Screw slashdot, they never did want us anyhow. The few things they do post there just draw crowds of Linux kiddies showing off what asses they can be anyhow. The last sensible comment I read there was written by Greg Lehey several months ago... -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 1:28: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from azazel.zer0.org (ip53200.transbay.net [209.133.53.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E6714D57 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 01:27:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@azazel.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by azazel.zer0.org (8.9.3/8.9.2) id BAA62008; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 01:27:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 01:27:12 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Wes Peters Cc: Chris Coleman , Jeremy Shaffner , "D.M.P." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions Message-ID: <19991005012712.C56393@azazel.zer0.org> References: <37F978ED.F9DC2479@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <37F978ED.F9DC2479@softweyr.com> Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 10:05:01PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > But should. Speaking of which, are we planning on having a Daemon News BoF? > I've not gotten any reponse so far. The event calendar is fairly full. I just checked the schedule and it _is_ pretty full! We'd have to have it Thursday night or squeeze it in around beer bashes and cruises. Ideas? I'm game for a BoF. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Heisenberg might have been here. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 1:59:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7DDD01534F for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 01:57:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 35067 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Oct 1999 08:56:24 -0000 Date: 5 Oct 1999 01:56:24 -0700 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 01:56:24 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Wes Peters , Chris Coleman , Jeremy Shaffner , "D.M.P." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions Message-ID: <19991005015624.A34984@dub.net> References: <37F978ED.F9DC2479@softweyr.com> <19991005012712.C56393@azazel.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <19991005012712.C56393@azazel.zer0.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Oct 05, 1999 at 01:27:12AM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > On Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 10:05:01PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > But should. Speaking of which, are we planning on having a Daemon News BoF? > > I've not gotten any reponse so far. The event calendar is fairly full. > > I just checked the schedule and it _is_ pretty full! We'd have to have > it Thursday night or squeeze it in around beer bashes and cruises. > Ideas? I'm game for a BoF. I'm down with this too, although it may be that it happens later on one evening. -Bill -- -=| --- B i l l S w i n g l e --- http://www.dub.net/ -=| unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| Different all twisty a of in maze are you, passages little To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 3:57:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA06E14FC3 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 03:56:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p08-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.163.200.105]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id TAA16197; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:53:55 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37F9BD6E.C187FDC8@newsguy.com> Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 17:57:18 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeremy Shaffner Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > Whenever there is a Linux conference or expo, there's at least one story > posted on Slashdot every day. There has only been one story on FreeBSDCon > (last month). > > On Friday I sent in a submission with links to the Program Overview and > Event Schedule (recently updated last week.) They haven't yet posted it. > > If enough of us submitting it, maybe they won't look/toss it over. I send the final line up the day it showed up on daily.daemonnews. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org Rule 69: Do unto other's code as you'd have it done unto yours To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 13:38:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 04DBB152EC for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:35:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 45922 invoked by uid 1001); 5 Oct 1999 20:33:07 -0000 Date: 5 Oct 1999 13:33:07 -0700 Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 13:33:07 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Jeremy Shaffner , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions Message-ID: <19991005133307.C45206@dub.net> References: <37F9BD6E.C187FDC8@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <37F9BD6E.C187FDC8@newsguy.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, Oct 05, 1999 at 05:57:18PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > > > > Whenever there is a Linux conference or expo, there's at least one story > > posted on Slashdot every day. There has only been one story on FreeBSDCon > > (last month). > > > > On Friday I sent in a submission with links to the Program Overview and > > Event Schedule (recently updated last week.) They haven't yet posted it. > > > > If enough of us submitting it, maybe they won't look/toss it over. > > I send the final line up the day it showed up on daily.daemonnews. I submitted it to /. again yesterday. No joy. Oh well. -Bill -- -=| --- B i l l S w i n g l e --- http://www.dub.net/ -=| unfurl@dub.net - unfurl@freebsd.org - bill@cdrom.com -=| Different all twisty a of in maze are you, passages little To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 15:29:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2239815689 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:28:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org id 11Yd42-00041W-00; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:28:06 +0100 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA25484 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:28:06 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:28:05 +0100 (BST) From: J McKitrick To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Linux convert... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Well, here i am .. finally made the switch. Should i be worried about linux leaving us in the dust in a year or two? -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 15:31:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from charlie.cns.iit.edu (charlie.cns.iit.edu [216.47.143.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AD7C1530F for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 15:31:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maneben@charlie.cns.iit.edu) Received: from localhost (maneben@localhost) by charlie.cns.iit.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id RAA23627 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:31:38 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:31:38 -0500 (CDT) From: "Benjamin M. Manes" To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions In-Reply-To: <19991005133307.C45206@dub.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I submitted it to /. again yesterday. No joy. Oh well. > > -Bill 'Roblimo' has numerously said he will post messages he wouldn't otherwise if he's flooded, just to "shut people up." So, I'm sure the way to get past their bias is just to annoy them enough with submissions and they'll do it. Otherwise, its like fighting a river. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 16:34: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4480F15642 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:33:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from localhost (jkh@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA11405; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 16:30:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: J McKitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 05 Oct 1999 23:28:05 BST." Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1999 16:30:08 -0700 Message-ID: <11402.939166208@localhost> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Well, here i am .. finally made the switch. Should i be worried about > linux leaving us in the dust in a year or two? No. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 17: 3:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1E6614E62 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:03:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA27714; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 17:20:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: J McKitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, J McKitrick wrote: > Well, here i am .. finally made the switch. Should i be worried about > linux leaving us in the dust in a year or two? Didn't I just answer a question like this from you a few days ago? It really depends what you mean by "leaving us in the dust", if you mean pretty bootup sequences with color checkboxes like so: starting xyz [ OK ] and splash screens with blue progress indicators, along with userland tools that attempt to outsmart you... then we are already "in the dust". Fortunatly we aren't striving to be a pretty MS-Windows replacement so this shouldn't concern you. FreeBSD 4.0 is shaping up to be more than just an overhyped eye catcher, it's truly an amazing daemon. Stick around, it's worth the ride. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 19:25:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D981156AE for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 19:25:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02442; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:22:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:22:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Bill Swingle Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Jeremy Shaffner , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions In-Reply-To: <19991005133307.C45206@dub.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi On 5 Oct 1999, Bill Swingle wrote: [big snip of /. ignoring BSD related items] > I submitted it to /. again yesterday. No joy. Oh well. I'm 0 for 3 in the past few days - I also tried the schedule and it again got rejected. I've contemplated e-mailing Rob and seeing if he really meant for more BSD news to be posted there or what, but didn't want it to seem like a "BSD people pick on Rob" day if others were too. :-) Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 20:56: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565A5156AE for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 20:55:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11Yi9J-000FpZ-00; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 04:53:53 +0100 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id EAA28050; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 04:53:53 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 04:53:53 +0100 (BST) From: J McKitrick To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Will it be difficult to upgrade to 4.0? I just got 3.2, and i am leery of updating to 3.3 and breaking my system (even though it has features i could use) since i've seen some problems on the questions list. Won't 4.0 be even more likely to do that? -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 21:54: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from orion.ac.hmc.edu (Orion.AC.HMC.Edu [134.173.32.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DFAD1570C for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:53:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brooks@one-eyed-alien.net) Received: from localhost (brdavis@localhost) by orion.ac.hmc.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29450; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:48:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Authentication-Warning: orion.ac.hmc.edu: brdavis owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1999 21:48:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Brooks Davis X-Sender: brdavis@orion.ac.hmc.edu To: J McKitrick Cc: Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, J McKitrick wrote: > Will it be difficult to upgrade to 4.0? I just got 3.2, and i am leery of > updating to 3.3 and breaking my system (even though it has features i > could use) since i've seen some problems on the questions list. Won't 4.0 > be even more likely to do that? There will certaintly be issues, there always are. On the other hand I survived going to source upgrade route from 2.2.8 to 3.1 with minimal problems by reading the lists carefully before hand. That upgrade replaced the entire aout userland and kernel with an ELF userland and kernel and upgraded the bootloader, certaintly nothing to sneeze at. As to the move form 3.2 to 3.3, I wouldn't worry, I've been happily tracking stable on my router since 2.2.8 and on my laptop since 3.1 with no real problems. Heck, my laptop runs way better under FreeBSD then under windows. Once Warner Losh gets PCCard support working under newbus and current has a quiet moment, I plan run current and try my hand as some kernel hacking. As Alfred mentioned, it looks like 4.0 is going to kick some serious ass. -- Brooks To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 22: 3:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from bbcon.com.au (firewall.bbcon.com.au [203.28.19.210]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66600152DE for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 22:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jsutton@bbcon.com.au) Received: from office.bbcon.com.au (stargate [10.0.0.1]) by bbcon.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA09701 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:03:14 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jsutton@bbcon.com.au) Received: from localhost (jsutton@localhost) by office.bbcon.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA03333 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:05:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jsutton@bbcon.com.au) X-Authentication-Warning: stargate.home: jsutton owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:05:34 +1000 (EST) From: Joel Sutton X-Sender: jsutton@stargate.home To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Do any of the Linux distributions make it really easy to upgrade? translated... Can FreeBSD's upgradability be used as a selling point? Thanks, Joel... On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, J McKitrick wrote: > Will it be difficult to upgrade to 4.0? I just got 3.2, and i am leery of > updating to 3.3 and breaking my system (even though it has features i > could use) since i've seen some problems on the questions list. Won't 4.0 > be even more likely to do that? > > -jm > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > --- Joel Sutton | Busy Bee Consulting Phone: (0409) 426-563 | Melbourne, Australia Email: jsutton@bbcon.com.au | http://www.bbcon.com.au/ VicFUG Webmaster/Acting President | http://www.vicfug.au.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Tue Oct 5 23:52:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A77C156B3 for ; Tue, 5 Oct 1999 23:50:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA62202; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:59:29 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:59:29 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Jeremy Shaffner Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions Message-ID: <19991006005929.A61900@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeremy Shaffner on Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 01:53:32PM -0500 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 01:53:32PM -0500, Jeremy Shaffner wrote: > Whenever there is a Linux conference or expo, there's at least one story > posted on Slashdot every day. There has only been one story on FreeBSDCon > (last month). > > On Friday I sent in a submission with links to the Program Overview and > Event Schedule (recently updated last week.) They haven't yet posted it. > > If enough of us submitting it, maybe they won't look/toss it over. This will change *very* shortly. I'm in the throes of moving house at the moment, and finishing up the aftermath from that. When that's finished, nik@slashdot.org will start going through all the incoming submissions working out what to post. Look for this to start happening around the middle of next week. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 0:47:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2372E14D0F for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:47:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA08464; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:04:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: J McKitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, J McKitrick wrote: > Will it be difficult to upgrade to 4.0? I just got 3.2, and i am leery of > updating to 3.3 and breaking my system (even though it has features i > could use) since i've seen some problems on the questions list. Won't 4.0 > be even more likely to do that? 4.0 is the developer version and not recommeneded for people new to FreeBSD. It's intended audiance is developers, early adopters (people in absolute need of new features) and people willing to fix bumps they come across. http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/cutting-edge.html#CURRENT Simply, if you have a problem with 3.x it's more than likely someone will want to walk you through the problem, however with 4.0 they'll more than likely ask you where the patches to fix the problem are. You'll probably find this helpful as a guide for 3.x: http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/stable.html as well as: http://www.nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk/FreeBSD/make-world/make-world.html Stick with 3.x for now, even the most experienced developers sometimes get bitten by -current (4.x). -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 0:50:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.jorsm.com (mercury.jorsm.com [207.112.128.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 868D714E15 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 00:50:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jer@jorsm.com) Received: from localhost (jer@localhost) by mercury.jorsm.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id CAA14066; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 02:50:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 02:50:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Jeremy Shaffner To: Brett Taylor Cc: Bill Swingle , "Daniel C. Sobral" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Thought about it, but it's better coming from a name he recognizes. -=========================================================================- Jeremy Shaffner JORSM Internet, Regional Internet Services System Administrator 7 Area Codes in Chicagoland and NW Indiana jer@jorsm.com 100Mbps+ Connectivity, 56K-DS3, V.90, ISDN support@jorsm.com Quality Service, Affordable Prices http://www.jorsm.com Serving Gov't, Business, Individuals Since 1995 -=========================================================================- On Tue, 5 Oct 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi > > On 5 Oct 1999, Bill Swingle wrote: > > [big snip of /. ignoring BSD related items] > > > I submitted it to /. again yesterday. No joy. Oh well. > > I'm 0 for 3 in the past few days - I also tried the schedule and it again > got rejected. I've contemplated e-mailing Rob and seeing if he really > meant for more BSD news to be posted there or what, but didn't want it to > seem like a "BSD people pick on Rob" day if others were too. :-) > > Brett > ***************************************************** > Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * > Dept of Chem and Physics * > Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * > Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * > Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * > ***************************************************** > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 1: 1:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92B5314E15 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:01:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA08872; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:20:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Joel Sutton Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Joel Sutton wrote: > On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, J McKitrick wrote: > > > Will it be difficult to upgrade to 4.0? I just got 3.2, and i am leery of > > updating to 3.3 and breaking my system (even though it has features i > > could use) since i've seen some problems on the questions list. Won't 4.0 > > be even more likely to do that? > > > Do any of the Linux distributions make it really easy to upgrade? > > translated... > > Can FreeBSD's upgradability be used as a selling point? > Ah, you aren't familiar with the FreeBSD much hyped (or maybe not hyped enough... hrm) "make world" facility. http://www.nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk/FreeBSD/make-world/make-world.html it makes for upgrades of entire machines a breeze. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 1: 2: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 200C514E77 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 01:02:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p08-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.137]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id RAA21509; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:00:45 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FAF9F8.3F9B277E@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 16:27:52 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: J McKitrick Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG J McKitrick wrote: > > Will it be difficult to upgrade to 4.0? I just got 3.2, and i am leery of > updating to 3.3 and breaking my system (even though it has features i > could use) since i've seen some problems on the questions list. Well... you know, there are hundreds of thousands of FreeBSD users, and some then are bound to have problems. And, when they do, the appropriate channel for them to seek help is -questions. So, I'd not let problem reports on -questions stop you. Just make sure to read the release notes and the errata. > Won't 4.0 be even more likely to do that? It sure will. One of the main causes for problem report is failure to read the release notes. As the system changes, people need to do special procedures during the upgrade, such as moving from an aout to an elf world, installing new boot blocks, or changing certain configuration files. We try to keep this to a minimum, but not at the expense of evolution, so there are always some of these things in the way. Like any major release upgrade, 4.0 will have a number of these problems, much more so than a simple minor release (which, in principle, shouldn't have any at all). People who read the release notes, pay attention to the errata, and, generally speaking, follow the upgrade procedure correctly and don't screw up, will be fine, though. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 6:25:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E545155E1 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 06:25:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11Yr4C-000MDt-00; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:25:12 +0100 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA33323; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:25:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:25:12 +0100 (BST) From: J McKitrick To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Actually, i was referring to 4.0 Stable when it came out ;-) With all these overhauls, how ugly will the upgrade be? Someone just commented, but maybe you would have more insight. -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 9: 0:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from valis.worldgate.ca (valis.worldgate.ca [198.161.84.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0875115701 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from skafte@worldgate.ca) Received: from worldgate.ca (skafte@diskless4.worldgate.ca [198.161.84.132]) by valis.worldgate.ca (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA93433; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:00:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37FB7203.F78CF4B5@worldgate.ca> Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 10:00:04 -0600 From: Greg Skafte Organization: WorldGate Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: An article from Microsoft Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------F331C89D05F6A973E60AC0C2" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F331C89D05F6A973E60AC0C2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A very interesting artical on the weaknesses of linux to bad it's trying to promote NT .... http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/news/msnw/linuxmyths.asp -- Email: skafte@worldgate.com Voice: +780 413 1910 Fax: +780 421 4929 #575 Sun Life Place * 10123 99 Street * Edmonton, AB * Canada * T5J 3H1 -- -- When things can't get any worse, they simplify themselves by getting a whole lot worse then complicated. A complete and utter disaster is the simplest thing in the world; it's preventing one that's complex. (Janet Morris) --------------F331C89D05F6A973E60AC0C2 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="skafte.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Greg Skafte Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="skafte.vcf" begin:vcard n:Skafte;Greg tel;pager:(780) 491 4791 tel;fax:(780) 421 4929 tel;work:(780) 413 1910 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.worldgate.ca org:;Network Operations version:2.1 email;internet:skafte@worldgate.ca title:Operations Manager adr;quoted-printable:;;#575 Sun Life Place =0D=0A10123 99 Street;Edmonton;Alberta;T5J 3H1;Canada x-mozilla-cpt:;3360 fn:Greg Skafte end:vcard --------------F331C89D05F6A973E60AC0C2-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 9:40:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4919D15717 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:40:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p17-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.132.6.146]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id BAA08670; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:40:26 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FB7B12.812F6A6B@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 01:38:42 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Skafte Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft References: <37FB7203.F78CF4B5@worldgate.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Greg Skafte wrote: > > A very interesting artical on the weaknesses of linux to > bad it's trying to promote NT .... > > http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/news/msnw/linuxmyths.asp It's mostly FUD based on biased reports previously released, with unsupported generalizations when it comes to promote NT or critize Linux, and denial of fair generalizations when they would have promoted Linux. It also has some downright incorrect information (ie, lies). -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 10:36:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from exchange.cfunet.net (exchange.cfunet.net [206.29.238.241]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FA9F151E8 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:36:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jodonald@cfunet.net) Received: by CFU9 with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:32:25 -0500 Message-ID: <73FC0300EDDAD211872300902746017B01D14F@CFU9> From: Jim O'Donald To: "'freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org'" Subject: RE: An article from Microsoft Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:31:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Of course the fact that it's written by Microsoft makes it biased. Does anyone know anything about benchmarking? I would love to take a default installation of Windows NT/IIS and a default installation of FreeBSD/Samba/Apache and do some real-world tests. I would recommend performing this on test on equipment that I routinely see implemented in networks, not high-end 4-way servers. If anyone knows about benchmarking, please let me know. I have the equipment to do this testing with, but don't know anything about how to go about measuring the response times. Thanks. Jim O'Donald -----Original Message----- From: Greg Skafte [mailto:skafte@worldgate.ca] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 11:00 AM To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: An article from Microsoft A very interesting artical on the weaknesses of linux to bad it's trying to promote NT .... http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/news/msnw/linuxmyths.asp -- Email: skafte@worldgate.com Voice: +780 413 1910 Fax: +780 421 4929 #575 Sun Life Place * 10123 99 Street * Edmonton, AB * Canada * T5J 3H1 -- -- When things can't get any worse, they simplify themselves by getting a whole lot worse then complicated. A complete and utter disaster is the simplest thing in the world; it's preventing one that's complex. (Janet Morris) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 10:48:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (sol.cc.u-szeged.hu [160.114.8.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D912E15741 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:47:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (8.9.1b+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id TAA17351; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:47:16 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local-smtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11YvBN-0003Lf-00; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:48:53 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 19:48:53 +0200 (CEST) From: Adam Szilveszter Reply-To: Adam Szilveszter To: Greg Skafte Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft In-Reply-To: <37FB7203.F78CF4B5@worldgate.ca> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Greg Skafte wrote: > A very interesting artical on the weaknesses of linux to > bad it's trying to promote NT .... > > > http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/news/msnw/linuxmyths.asp Hi! Hmmmm.... Again the typical M$ style thing of mixing truth, assumptions, references to authority that you might or might not understand but not question without looking an idiot and some outright propaganda... Just to demonstrate a few highlights (although the article was written about Linux, there is no reason to think that they have a different opinion on any OpenSource UNIX-derivate...) -Win NT has a lower TCO than Linux. Then the text says the same for UNIX and then there is a link to demonstrate that which points to comparison of WinNT on Intel and Solaris on SPARC... no comment. I'd like to see the much-hyped Win2000 to be ported to that platform first...(or, in fact to any platform apart from x86 and Alpha:-) -They quote better SMP and clustering support but somehow forget to mention that to get SMP beyond two processors, you need to purchase the irrationally-expensive Enterprise Edition and for clusters the even-more expensive Cluster Server...BTW ever wondered what difference there is between WinNT WS and SRV? Nothing, but the more advanced features are simply disabled in cheaper versions... but they are certainly right in saying that you need couple of PIII XEONs to run NT fast enough in demanding situations:-) -They say that support for Linux is expensive but then they say that it does not exist to a great degree which means that it cannot be expensive...and of course forget to tell about their "inexpensive" support options...but they are certainly right in saying that it takes time to train real SAs who understand what's going on instead of people who just point-and-click-and-damn-it_wont_work-so-try_again-or-i_dunno:-) -the best item is:"Linux makes no sense on the desktop" (sic!) No comment... i use FBSD as my desktop machine for more than half a year now exclusively and never wanted to go back to win ever since...and the machine cannot even demonstrate its server abilities because the univ sysadmin will not allow this for students... :-( I will not even mention the infamous comments about benchmark results a la Mindcraft, the security issues, etc. Of course there are many items of truth in there as well, which partly apply to us as well... eg the Journalling FS issue... others are more Linux-specific like the lack of a centralised repository (i'd recommend www.freebsd.org...it will not be easy to find something comparable for Linux) and as for the security ratings, the Hungarian Government has not certified any version of NT yet and that is what counts for me first:-))))) On the other hand, for a more-or-less biased but critical view it is good to read mags like the WinNT Magazine (www.winntmag.com) where they point out interesting stuff for commercial UNICES as well which M$ officially cannot do... and then read our sources for a biased but critical view of NT:-)) Regards: Szilveszter ADAM To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 10:52:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 5E5FF15729; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533631CD471; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 10:52:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: J McKitrick Cc: Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, J McKitrick wrote: > Actually, i was referring to 4.0 Stable when it came out ;-) > With all these overhauls, how ugly will the upgrade be? Someone just > commented, but maybe you would have more insight. We'll do what we can to make it as painless as possible - but on the other hand the thing about major releases (2.0, 3.0, 4.0) is that a lot has changed between them, so you need to go into it with your eyes open (i.e. read the release notes!) to make sure you don't get bit by one of them. I wouldn't worry about it - the difference between 3.x and 4.0 won't be nearly as big as between 2.x and 3.0 (which diverged for several years before 3.0-RELEASE came around), and most people survived that epochal event without major hassles. The best thing to do when that day rolls around next year is to wait a few weeks, watch what problems others run into, and then proceed cautiously yourself. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 11:25:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22E4D14D5B for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:25:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA05870; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:24:37 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:24:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Adam Szilveszter Cc: Greg Skafte , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Adam Szilveszter wrote: Just one quick comment: > -Win NT has a lower TCO than Linux. Then the text says the same for > UNIX and then there is a link to demonstrate that which points to > comparison of WinNT on Intel and Solaris on SPARC... no comment. I'd > like to see the much-hyped Win2000 to be ported to that platform > first...(or, in fact to any platform apart from x86 and Alpha:-) MS abandoned porting to the alpha. This means they have no testbed right now for running/developing 2000 on a 64-bit chip, like say Merced, I mean Itanium. :-) Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 11:33:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC44214FE3; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:33:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA21363; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 11:52:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Kris Kennaway Cc: J McKitrick , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, 6 Oct 1999, J McKitrick wrote: > > > Actually, i was referring to 4.0 Stable when it came out ;-) > > With all these overhauls, how ugly will the upgrade be? Someone just > > commented, but maybe you would have more insight. > > We'll do what we can to make it as painless as possible - but on the other > hand the thing about major releases (2.0, 3.0, 4.0) is that a lot has > changed between them, so you need to go into it with your eyes open (i.e. > read the release notes!) to make sure you don't get bit by one of them. > > I wouldn't worry about it - the difference between 3.x and 4.0 won't be > nearly as big as between 2.x and 3.0 (which diverged for several years > before 3.0-RELEASE came around), and most people survived that epochal > event without major hassles. The best thing to do when that day rolls > around next year is to wait a few weeks, watch what problems others run > into, and then proceed cautiously yourself. Not only that but several people worked very hard on 'upgrade kits' that many people were successful with when the followed the directions. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 12:38:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from charlie.cns.iit.edu (charlie.cns.iit.edu [216.47.143.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5791215767 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 12:37:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maneben@charlie.cns.iit.edu) Received: from localhost (maneben@localhost) by charlie.cns.iit.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id OAA36782; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:38:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 14:38:20 -0500 (CDT) From: "Benjamin M. Manes" To: Adam Szilveszter Cc: Greg Skafte , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > -Win NT has a lower TCO than Linux. Then the text says the same for UNIX > and then there is a link to demonstrate that which points to comparison of > WinNT on Intel and Solaris on SPARC... no comment. I'd like to see the > much-hyped Win2000 to be ported to that platform first...(or, in fact to > any platform apart from x86 and Alpha:-) Windows NT 4.x runs on Alpha, x86, and PowerPC. Of course, only x86 is currently supported. Windows 2000 (NT kernel) runs on IA-64, though who knows how much, but no one knows how much Linux runs on it too. The only real comparison of NT and UNIX was the famous NT vs. Unix article (forget URL), the rest have been opinions or real-world examples. > > -They quote better SMP and clustering support but somehow forget to > mention that to get > SMP beyond two processors, you need to purchase the irrationally-expensive > Enterprise Edition and for clusters the even-more expensive Cluster > Server...BTW ever wondered what difference there is between WinNT WS and > SRV? > Nothing, but the more advanced features are simply disabled in cheaper > versions... but they are certainly right in saying > that you need couple of PIII XEONs to run NT fast enough in demanding > situations:-) NT Workstation supports 1 - 2 proccessors (if you convert after install, you need the resource kit or to reinstall the OS), server supports 1-4 processors, and Enterprise supports 1-8 processors. I've used all of these, just not enterprise for long. :) Workstation vs. Server is only a minor regestry and application changes. However, you are not paying for the extras, more for the clients, MS support, and to stay legal when auditted. This is not an oddity, as just in the hardware world Intel does the same from the Celeron to the PII, to the Xeon. Or even better yet, the laptop versions are merely 128kb L1 cache changes. I don't see why people are more annoyed at Microsoft for doing a common practice in the business world, and not as much as others, such as Intel. It could be argued Intel has more of a lock than MS does. NT workstation/server to enterprise is mostly kernel changes. One example is to give applications 3gb and the kernel 1gb of ram, rather than giving each 2gb. I have the document of changes incase your really interested. > -They say that support for Linux is expensive but then they say that it > does not exist to a great degree which means that it cannot be > expensive...and of course forget to tell about > their "inexpensive" support options...but they are certainly right in > saying that it takes time to train real SAs who understand what's going on > instead of people who just > point-and-click-and-damn-it_wont_work-so-try_again-or-i_dunno:-) TOC is estimated as the cost of hardware, software, maintance, and cost of downtime. UNIX SA cost more than Windows ones, the hardware/OS costs range from who you use (Sun, SGI, IBM), downtime MS calls ~$0 with the 100% iniative. UNIX is traditionally more expensive in the short run. Software for UNIX is always more expensive in CADs, etc. Versions of programs, such as IDL, the now dead MathCAD, Maple, MatLab, etc are more costly. However, the UNIX varients usually include support such as xterm and other more poewrful distributed network abilities. > -the best item is:"Linux makes no sense on the desktop" (sic!) > No comment... i use FBSD as my desktop machine for more than half a year > now exclusively and never wanted to go back to win ever since...and the > machine cannot even demonstrate its server abilities because the univ > sysadmin will not allow this for students... :-( For a desktop, the amount of usable apps are important, and so is ease of use, along with it actually working. UNIX has some great tools that compete, some that are not on Windows, but in general, Windows has more. UNIX only in the last few years has had real office suites, and Lotus/Corel/MS suites on Windows are in many ways superior. Desktop is considered personal client machine, not acting as a server. > Journalling FS issue... others are more Linux-specific like the lack of a > centralised repository (i'd recommend www.freebsd.org...it will not be > easy to find something comparable for Linux) and as for the security The JFS is footnoted too. regards, Ben To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 13:20:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (sol.cc.u-szeged.hu [160.114.8.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12394152AF for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 13:20:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sziszi@petra.hos.u-szeged.hu) Received: from petra.hos.u-szeged.hu by sol.cc.u-szeged.hu (8.9.1b+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id WAA25271; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:20:08 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from sziszi by petra.hos.u-szeged.hu with local-smtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 11YxZM-0005GT-00; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:21:48 +0200 Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:21:48 +0200 (CEST) From: Adam Szilveszter To: "Benjamin M. Manes" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi! > NT Workstation supports 1 - 2 proccessors (if you convert after install, I did not know this... I have never seen an NT4 WS on SMP...:-) > > Workstation vs. Server is only a minor regestry and application changes. > However, you are not paying for the extras, more for the clients, MS > support, and to stay legal when auditted. This is not an oddity, as just > in the hardware world Intel does the same from the Celeron to the PII, to > the Xeon. Or even better yet, the laptop versions are merely 128kb L1 > cache changes. I don't see why people are more annoyed at Microsoft for > doing a common practice in the business world, and not as much as others, > such as Intel. It could be argued Intel has more of a lock than MS does. I did not say that I like Intel's practices, did I? :-) On the other hand there *is* a huge difference. If you somehow work around Intel's limitations on cheaper processors, you only loose support but if you do this for MS NT4 you go to jail... at least here in Hungary ...however I would not say this is a common practice in the business world... in the IT world maybe. If I buy a less expensive item, I normally do not find a crippled luxury one inside:-) > > NT workstation/server to enterprise is mostly kernel changes. One example > is to give applications 3gb and the kernel 1gb of ram, rather than giving > each 2gb. I have the document of changes incase your really interested. Yes, I certainly *am* interested. If you could do this, I would be grateful. > TOC is estimated as the cost of hardware, software, maintance, and cost of > downtime. UNIX SA cost more than Windows ones, the hardware/OS costs range > from who you use (Sun, SGI, IBM), downtime MS calls ~$0 with the 100% > iniative. UNIX is traditionally more expensive in the short run. Software > for UNIX is always more expensive in CADs, etc. Versions of programs, such > as IDL, the now dead MathCAD, Maple, MatLab, etc are more costly. However, > the UNIX varients usually include support such as xterm and other more > poewrful distributed network abilities. Well if they are capable of more than the higher price is justified... on the other hand I was simply pointing out that it was not fair to compare SPARC and x86 in terms of h/w costs. Maybe if they took the Alpha...but I am certainly aware that commercial UNIX is expensive. OTOH the document was dealing with Linux...and they simply extrapolated from the TOC calculations for commercial systems. Funny. > For a desktop, the amount of usable apps are important, and so is ease of > use, along with it actually working. UNIX has some great tools that > compete, some that are not on Windows, but in general, Windows has more. > UNIX only in the last few years has had real office suites, and > Lotus/Corel/MS suites on Windows are in many ways superior. I could not agree more. A year and a half ago I decided to put off the conversion issue exactly for this reason. But as for now, the two can already compete if you want nothing special but just the usual spreadsheet/wordprocessing/websurfing etc. (Eg. the Muncipial Court in my hometown uses not only Linux servers but also clients... although office clerks do not tend to be very computer-savvy in general:-) Of course if you want something complex then things look different... As far as I can see FBSD is rather advanced in this respect, for the others I have no experience yet (although I would like to try OpenBSD some day:-) As for ease of use, well there are alternatives beyond twm:-) And I really do not see why MS Office would be superior to, say, Star Office. The latter even got hyped recently on the Win32 platform as a good idea to try...my only problem with it is that it consumes way too many resources. Desktop is > considered personal client machine, not acting as a server. I know, I was just referring to the fact that in addition to the above, the machine could act as a full-featured server as well while a Win9x box might have a prettier desktop with more apps on it (if you have lots of money to buy them) but will not be even a suitable Web server, at least IMHO. > regards, > Ben Sorry for taking this long but felt the need to explain... Regards: Szilveszter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 15:32:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0C6C14A03 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:32:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id AAA23957 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:31:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by bigeye.rhein-neckar.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA80437 for freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 00:03:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from daemon) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Linux convert... Date: 7 Oct 1999 00:03:11 +0200 Message-ID: <7tgguv$2eh7$1@bigeye.rhein-neckar.de> References: To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Joel Sutton wrote: > Do any of the Linux distributions make it really easy to upgrade? Debian does. > Can FreeBSD's upgradability be used as a selling point? That depends on what audience you are talking to. Most new Linux users I meet come from the MS-Windows world (surprise) and are horrified at the thought of compiling the system from source. Compilers are dark magic normal users are not supposed to touch, you know. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 15:37: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DA61C15773 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:36:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 8874 invoked from network); 6 Oct 1999 22:36:29 -0000 Received: from userbr37.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.146.230) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 1999 22:36:29 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA12049; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:36:22 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:36:22 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: "Benjamin M. Manes" Cc: Adam Szilveszter , Greg Skafte , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft Message-ID: <19991006233622.B400@marder-1> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 02:38:20PM -0500, Benjamin M. Manes wrote: > > > -Win NT has a lower TCO than Linux. Then the text says the same for UNIX > > and then there is a link to demonstrate that which points to comparison of > > WinNT on Intel and Solaris on SPARC... no comment. I'd like to see the > > much-hyped Win2000 to be ported to that platform first...(or, in fact to > > any platform apart from x86 and Alpha:-) > > Windows NT 4.x runs on Alpha, x86, and PowerPC. Of course, only x86 is > currently supported. Windows 2000 (NT kernel) runs on IA-64, though who > knows how much, but no one knows how much Linux runs on it too. The only From an article in November's PC Magazine about the Intel Developers Forum: Intel previews 64-bit Merced "...With only a couple of weeks to put the working Merced chips into systems and port software, it was impressive that the company could show Windows NT64 (in command-line mode only) and Linux already running. The Linux demonstration even had the Apache Web Server running with a Windows 98 client." Looks like Linux is ahead of M$ :) -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 15:46:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6555315794 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:45:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA28813; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:43:04 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 23:43:03 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Joel Sutton , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... Message-ID: <19991006234303.A28145@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Alfred Perlstein on Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 01:20:26AM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 01:20:26AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > Ah, you aren't familiar with the FreeBSD much hyped > (or maybe not hyped enough... hrm) "make world" facility. > > http://www.nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk/FreeBSD/make-world/make-world.html For future reference: the version of this that's now in the Handbook is the canonical version. The URL above will (this weekend) be replaced with a pointer to the Handbook. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 15:48:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from charlie.cns.iit.edu (charlie.cns.iit.edu [216.47.143.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0AB7153B6 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 15:48:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maneben@charlie.cns.iit.edu) Received: from localhost (maneben@localhost) by charlie.cns.iit.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id RAA43829; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:45:22 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:45:21 -0500 (CDT) From: "Benjamin M. Manes" To: Mark Ovens Cc: Adam Szilveszter , Greg Skafte , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft In-Reply-To: <19991006233622.B400@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > Intel previews 64-bit Merced > > "...With only a couple of weeks to put the working Merced > chips into systems and port software, it was impressive > that the company could show Windows NT64 (in command-line > mode only) and Linux already running. The Linux > demonstration even had the Apache Web Server running with > a Windows 98 client." > > Looks like Linux is ahead of M$ :) Perhaps, but there are a lot of differences still, ones that IMO, make it much harder for MS. Linux has a far easier time, since its still only the kernel. Windows is the OS... Anyways, this is not FreeBSD advocacy, and I believe the MS bashing should not become popular in BSD advocacy, its worse enough to have it continously streamed with any Linux advocacy comment. This thread is better offlist, or if viable on any FreeBSD list, -chat. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Wed Oct 6 17:30: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (staff.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 26B0D15798 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:29:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mhenry@black.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au) Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 10:27:46 +1000 (EST) From: "Michael Kenneth Henry" In-Reply-To: <37FB7203.F78CF4B5@worldgate.ca> from "Greg Skafte" at Oct 6, 99 10:00:04 am Content-Type: text Content-Length: 916 Message-Id: <19991007002950.26B0D15798@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > A very interesting artical on the weaknesses of linux to > bad it's trying to promote NT .... > > > http://www.microsoft.com/ntserver/nts/news/msnw/linuxmyths.asp The only point I agree with is "Linux can replace Windows on the desktop" Yes, I know Linux and *BSD are great desktop OSs, but only for people who know how to use UNIX. For the average joe/jane, Windows and MacOS are currently the best options. I honestly believe Microsoft has drawn so much attention to Linux to draw attention *away* from FreeBSD. Microsoft uses FreeBSD, they know how it performs and how stable it is. In the beginning they probably rejoiced at having Linux with which to compare WinNT, because Linux really wasn't a contender as a server OS and Microsoft was able to say they didn't have a monopoly. Unfortunately for Microsoft, Linux has grown up since then, and Microsoft (I hope) will get bitten by its own FUD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 1:33:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C0814EA5 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 01:33:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p08-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.137]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id RAA29748; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:32:28 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FC5775.6057C161@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 17:19:01 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Kenneth Henry Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft References: <19991007002950.26B0D15798@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Michael Kenneth Henry wrote: > > The only point I agree with is "Linux can replace Windows on the desktop" > > Yes, I know Linux and *BSD are great desktop OSs, but only for people > who know how to use UNIX. For the average joe/jane, Windows and MacOS > are currently the best options. Let me respectfully disagree with you. Linux and *BSD, if pre-installed and running gnome or kde with a carefully prepared desktop and office-type applications is as easy to use as anything else out there. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 2:42:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (staff.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DE283157E5 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 02:42:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mhenry@black.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au) Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:41:51 +1000 (EST) From: "Michael Kenneth Henry" In-Reply-To: <37FC5775.6057C161@newsguy.com> from "Daniel C. Sobral" at Oct 7, 99 05:19:01 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 575 Message-Id: <19991007094207.DE283157E5@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > The only point I agree with is "Linux can replace Windows on the desktop" > > > > Yes, I know Linux and *BSD are great desktop OSs, but only for people > > who know how to use UNIX. For the average joe/jane, Windows and MacOS > > are currently the best options. > > Let me respectfully disagree with you. Linux and *BSD, if > pre-installed and running gnome or kde with a carefully prepared > desktop and office-type applications is as easy to use as anything > else out there. I'm not just talking about ease-of-use. I'm talking about availability of applications. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 7:19:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B87151C1; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 07:19:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gryph@mindless.com) Received: from mindless.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA16433; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 07:14:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37FCABC4.449A4FB9@mindless.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 07:18:44 -0700 From: "D.M.P." Organization: dmp@aracnet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kris Kennaway Cc: J McKitrick , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Kris Kennaway wrote: > I wouldn't worry about it - the difference between 3.x and 4.0 won't be > nearly as big as between 2.x and 3.0 (which diverged for several years > before 3.0-RELEASE came around), and most people survived that epochal > event without major hassles. The best thing to do when that day rolls > around next year is to wait a few weeks, watch what problems others run > into, and then proceed cautiously yourself. Usually, when I upgrade the OS on a system, I take the opportunity to hardware upgrades and reload the entire system (exlcuding my archives) so I can get it all done over a weekend and manage to get away with almost no business-hours downtime. So usually my "upgrade" consists of dumping /etc to tape and reloading it after the install. That leaves one major question: What config-file rework will be needed to load 3.x configs into 4.0? -- "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of the human mind." -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 7:26:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDEDD14D51 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 07:26:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p16-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.163.200.113]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id XAA21859; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:24:18 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FCACAA.ABA7E2A1@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 23:22:34 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Kenneth Henry , advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft References: <19991007094207.DE283157E5@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Michael Kenneth Henry wrote: > > > Let me respectfully disagree with you. Linux and *BSD, if > > pre-installed and running gnome or kde with a carefully prepared > > desktop and office-type applications is as easy to use as anything > > else out there. > > I'm not just talking about ease-of-use. I'm talking about availability > of applications. I claim most desktops do nothing but games and office-type applications, both of which are available to Linux. Alas... is there any kind of application *not* available to Linux? -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 7:49:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C98A81514F; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 07:49:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p16-dn02kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.163.200.113]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id XAA27931; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:49:33 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FCB294.B3523148@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 23:47:48 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "D.M.P." Cc: Kris Kennaway , J McKitrick , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... References: <37FCABC4.449A4FB9@mindless.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "D.M.P." wrote: > > Usually, when I upgrade the OS on a system, I take the opportunity > to hardware upgrades and reload the entire system (exlcuding my > archives) so I can get it all done over a weekend and manage to get > away with almost no business-hours downtime. So usually my "upgrade" > consists of dumping /etc to tape and reloading it after the install. This is not recommended. An upgrade of /etc is recommended to avoid problems. > That leaves one major question: What config-file rework will be > needed to load 3.x configs into 4.0? A tool called mergemaster, present in the ports, is usually indicated. It makes /etc upgrades quite agreeable. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 9:13:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from guppy.pond.net (guppy.pond.net [205.240.25.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE4414E4D; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:13:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gryph@mindless.com) Received: from mindless.com (snapuser2-89.pacificcrest.net [216.36.34.89]) by guppy.pond.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28658; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:08:20 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37FCC689.67341BD8@mindless.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 09:12:57 -0700 From: "D.M.P." Organization: dmp@aracnet.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Kris Kennaway , J McKitrick , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... References: <37FCABC4.449A4FB9@mindless.com> <37FCB294.B3523148@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > "D.M.P." wrote: > > > > Usually, when I upgrade the OS on a system, I take the opportunity > > to hardware upgrades and reload the entire system (exlcuding my > > archives) so I can get it all done over a weekend and manage to get > > away with almost no business-hours downtime. So usually my "upgrade" > > consists of dumping /etc to tape and reloading it after the install. > > This is not recommended. An upgrade of /etc is recommended to avoid > problems. I load it back using /oldinst as the root. Lets me do a side-by-side as I reload the configs. Cut and paste, modify as needed. Just wondering how much of a difference there was going to be going from 3.2-R and 3.3-R to 4.0. > > That leaves one major question: What config-file rework will be > > needed to load 3.x configs into 4.0? > > A tool called mergemaster, present in the ports, is usually > indicated. It makes /etc upgrades quite agreeable. Ah... I'll have a look at it. Thanks for the bit of help. -- "Nothing is more noble, nothing more venerable than fidelity. Truth and faithfulness are the most sacred excellences and endowments of the human mind." -- Cicero To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 11:48: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B7BF14C1A for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 11:47:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-119.thuntek.net [207.66.52.119]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id MAA10082; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:47:40 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37FCED79.ED5B0E6@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 12:59:05 -0600 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Michael Kenneth Henry , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft References: <19991007094207.DE283157E5@hub.freebsd.org> <37FCACAA.ABA7E2A1@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > Michael Kenneth Henry wrote: > I claim most desktops do nothing but games and office-type > applications, both of which are available to Linux. > > Alas... is there any kind of application *not* available to Linux? > Having just gone through the wringer on this one, I can unequivocably say YES. I tried using both "electric" and "GNU EDA" (on FreeBSD/X11R6) for circuit design, and both are woefully inadequate for real world use. I ended up buying OrCAD. Its schematic capture is decent, and although the PCB layout portion has serious bugs, it's usable. If anybody wants to make a mint (I've already spent $5K, and still need the Cadence autorouter (another $5-$9K, not counting the W98 grief I've been through!!!), please make a layout program that's as stable as our OS... :-) -- Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 12:51:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2052814DFB for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:51:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 18205 invoked from network); 7 Oct 1999 19:50:25 -0000 Received: from userbl49.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.144.156) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 7 Oct 1999 19:50:25 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA00850; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:49:45 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 20:49:45 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Nik Clayton Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Joel Sutton , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux convert... Message-ID: <19991007204945.A817@marder-1> References: <19991006234303.A28145@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991006234303.A28145@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:43:03PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 01:20:26AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > Ah, you aren't familiar with the FreeBSD much hyped > > (or maybe not hyped enough... hrm) "make world" facility. > > > > http://www.nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk/FreeBSD/make-world/make-world.html > > For future reference: the version of this that's now in the Handbook > is the canonical version. The URL above will (this weekend) be replaced > with a pointer to the Handbook. > I used this doc when I did my first cvsup src-all. One thing that should be changed is the reference to using dircmp.pl "which is installed by default on FreeBSD versions 2.0 and above". Not on 3.1 it ain't (and it doesn't run under perl5 either). This should be changed to mergemaster (in the ports). > N > -- > [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, > non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs > the links. > -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 12:58: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id AA5D314DFB; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:58:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1CC61CD479; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:58:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 12:58:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: "D.M.P." Cc: J McKitrick , Alfred Perlstein , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux convert... In-Reply-To: <37FCABC4.449A4FB9@mindless.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, 7 Oct 1999, D.M.P. wrote: > That leaves one major question: What config-file rework will be > needed to load 3.x configs into 4.0? I left my crystal ball at home today, so perhaps you can defer that question until there actually is a 4.0 release, eh? Kris ---- XOR for AES -- join the campaign! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 17:26:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (staff.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8A2BF153BE for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:26:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mhenry@black.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au) Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:26:20 +1000 (EST) From: "Michael Kenneth Henry" In-Reply-To: <37FCACAA.ABA7E2A1@newsguy.com> from "Daniel C. Sobral" at Oct 7, 99 11:22:34 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 581 Message-Id: <19991008002631.8A2BF153BE@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > I'm not just talking about ease-of-use. I'm talking about availability > > of applications. > > I claim most desktops do nothing but games and office-type > applications, both of which are available to Linux. You're kidding, right? Just because xboing is available for Linux does not mean it's a substitute for "The Need for Speed". > Alas... is there any kind of application *not* available to Linux? Well, Microsoft Office, Links386 (a golf game which I enjoyed immensely in my days on DOS), a flight simulator is another app I miss, and my Dad wants to use Quicken. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 17:39: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (staff.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BFB6014BB7 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:38:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mhenry@black.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au) Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:37:37 +1000 (EST) From: "Michael Kenneth Henry" In-Reply-To: <37FCED79.ED5B0E6@thuntek.net> from "Donald Wilde" at Oct 7, 99 12:59:05 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 1691 Message-Id: <19991008003859.BFB6014BB7@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG The only app I can think of is XFig, but I suppose it is a little bit short on functionality for your purposes. To quote the manual: "XFig can serve as a printed circuit board layout tool for simple PC board designs, when most of the circuit is discrete components. It is not really up to a complex design or one where a large number of ICs are involved, but for analog circuits or preliminary layout of a design, it's quite useful". > > "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > > > Michael Kenneth Henry wrote: > > > I claim most desktops do nothing but games and office-type > > applications, both of which are available to Linux. > > > > Alas... is there any kind of application *not* available to Linux? > > > Having just gone through the wringer on this one, I can unequivocably > say YES. I tried using both "electric" and "GNU EDA" (on FreeBSD/X11R6) > for circuit design, and both are woefully inadequate for real world use. > > I ended up buying OrCAD. Its schematic capture is decent, and although > the PCB layout portion has serious bugs, it's usable. If anybody wants > to make a mint (I've already spent $5K, and still need the Cadence > autorouter (another $5-$9K, not counting the W98 grief I've been > through!!!), please make a layout program that's as stable as our OS... > :-) > -- > Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" > ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== > PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 > Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 17:49:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2D2E14D1B for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:49:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (ind.alcatel.com 2.3 [OUT])) id RAA20008; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA04136; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 17:47:21 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA17765; Thu, 7 Oct 99 17:47:04 PDT Message-Id: <37FD3F16.F71A319C@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 18:47:18 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Chris Coleman , Jeremy Shaffner , "D.M.P." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions References: <37F978ED.F9DC2479@softweyr.com> <19991005012712.C56393@azazel.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 10:05:01PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > > > But should. Speaking of which, are we planning on having a Daemon News BoF? > > I've not gotten any reponse so far. The event calendar is fairly full. > > I just checked the schedule and it _is_ pretty full! We'd have to have > it Thursday night or squeeze it in around beer bashes and cruises. > Ideas? I'm game for a BoF. OK, Greg's gamey, who else is going to show up given that? ;^) Check out the thread on daily, I moved the discussion there. I hope. It's a comment to the posting about the Con schedule. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 18:35:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFFA71510F for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 18:35:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-175.thuntek.net [207.66.52.175]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id TAA03466; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:35:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37FD4D1E.62F585E8@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 19:47:10 -0600 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Kenneth Henry Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft References: <19991008003859.BFB6014BB7@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Michael Kenneth Henry wrote: > > The only app I can think of is XFig, but I suppose it is a little > bit short on functionality for your purposes. > > To quote the manual: > > "XFig can serve as a printed circuit board layout tool for simple > PC board designs, when most of the circuit is discrete components. > It is not really up to a complex design or one where a large number I'll give you a clue... that's an understatement. :-) I need something which will work for multiple generations of a board, ending up with a surface-mount design. I need design-rule checking on the fly, because often the schematic changes on an hourly basis. I also need stuff thast makes drill 'tapes' for production boards as well. The reality is that FreeBSD (and that L OS) are far short of engineeering tools with the notable exception of Mathematica. I have some neat blue film that works directly from the laser printer to allow me to make simple circuit boards at home on demand. Between the CAD software and that, plus my chip emulators and programmers, I've literally got a control computer factory at home. However, these are just crude proto's. One evenmtually needs to send the client pro-quality boards, and neither of the Open Source EDA packages can fill the bill. Electric is the closest, but it's geared toward MOSIS chip masks, not digital circuits, although it has some notable capabilities. > of ICs are involved, but for analog circuits or preliminary layout > of a design, it's quite useful". > If I was just a home user cribbing boards for myself, I could have gotten away with any of the above, and I'd probably have the time to help develop one of the packages... if I was a hobbyist. Unfortunately, money runs away if time grows long, and I ran out of time trying to succeed with O-S software. -- Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 19: 1: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5DE152FE for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:01:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-175.thuntek.net [207.66.52.175]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id TAA03656; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:37:34 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37FD4DAE.A388DEE2@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 19:49:34 -0600 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Gregory Sutter , Chris Coleman , Jeremy Shaffner , "D.M.P." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions References: <37F978ED.F9DC2479@softweyr.com> <19991005012712.C56393@azazel.zer0.org> <37FD3F16.F71A319C@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Re: DN BOF Thurs night I'm gamey too. (phew!) ;-) -- Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 19: 2:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440EE153AB for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:02:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA96019; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:31:58 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:31:57 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: Gregory Sutter , Chris Coleman , Jeremy Shaffner , "D.M.P." , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Request for More Submissions Message-ID: <19991008113157.W78191@freebie.lemis.com> References: <37F978ED.F9DC2479@softweyr.com> <19991005012712.C56393@azazel.zer0.org> <37FD3F16.F71A319C@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <37FD3F16.F71A319C@softweyr.com> WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, 7 October 1999 at 18:47:18 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 10:05:01PM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >>> >>> But should. Speaking of which, are we planning on having a Daemon News BoF? >>> I've not gotten any reponse so far. The event calendar is fairly full. >> >> I just checked the schedule and it _is_ pretty full! We'd have to have >> it Thursday night or squeeze it in around beer bashes and cruises. >> Ideas? I'm game for a BoF. > > OK, Greg's gamey, who else is going to show up given that? ;^) > > Check out the thread on daily, I moved the discussion there. I hope. > It's a comment to the posting about the Con schedule. Change the subject so that I'll see it. In principle I'm interested, but I can see we're all going to be pretty busy. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 19: 4:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from buddy.pacificcoast.net (tubby.pacificcoast.net [204.209.208.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77BBC153AB for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:04:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mmarkowitz@ceiss.org) Received: from io.ceiss.org (io.ceiss.org [139.142.96.2]) by buddy.pacificcoast.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16538 for ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:36:42 -0700 Received: by io.ceiss.org with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:50:08 -0700 Message-ID: From: Maury Markowitz To: "'freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: RE: An article from Microsoft Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 09:50:01 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Wednesday, October 06, 1999 9:00 AM, Greg Skafte [SMTP:skafte@worldgate.ca] wrote: > A very interesting artical on the weaknesses of linux to > bad it's trying to promote NT .... Interesting part that I noticed right off the bat... 110 percent better performance on a 4-way system than similarly configured single processor and 4-way Linux/SAMBA systems. They're testing _Windows_ printing performance on Unix using 3rd party software and saying it's not as good as a pure Windows printing solution. Is this supposed to surprise me? Notably when it appears that MS goes out of it's way to break SAMBA with every upgrade? Linux Needs Real World Proof Points Rather than Anecdotal Stories Ok, here's my "real world" one. Last week NT4.0SP5 did a blue-screen on me. I was using it to edit a web page in DreamWeaver at the time - the page included text and one picture (_no_ java or scripts or anything). If it can't do that without crashing the kernel, you expect me to run an e-business on it?! The week before that (actually three weeks ago now) a single message in a remote POP mailbox stopped the entire mail system from working. Whenever it attempted to get mail from that mailbox, the MAPI DLL would start taking up 99% of the CPU - forever. The machine slowed to a crawl. Now do they propose that making all mail retrieval go through a single DLL is a good idea for stability? And why is it that Netscape had no problem reading it (thus clearing the logjam)? The IT guys had no idea what to do, they wanted to do a re-install or suggested I use something else for POP because this sort of thing happened "all the time". So maybe that's anecdotal, but frankly MS, I don't give a damb. Maury To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 19:22:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from buddy.pacificcoast.net (tubby.pacificcoast.net [204.209.208.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 031F514E45 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:22:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mmarkowitz@ceiss.org) Received: from io.ceiss.org (io.ceiss.org [139.142.96.2]) by buddy.pacificcoast.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA11098 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 08:57:06 -0700 Received: by io.ceiss.org with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:11:43 -0700 Message-ID: From: Maury Markowitz To: "'freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: RE: An article from Microsoft Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 09:11:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thursday, October 07, 1999 7:23 AM, Daniel C. Sobral [SMTP:dcs@newsguy.com] wrote: > > I'm not just talking about ease-of-use. I'm talking about availability > > of applications. > > I claim most desktops do nothing but games and office-type > applications, both of which are available to Linux. > > Alas... is there any kind of application *not* available to Linux? Sadly it's no longer "kind" that's important, but specific names. If your platform does not run a product called "Microsoft Office xx" (where XX is a very recent version) then it does not make a good desktop platform. That may sound silly when you have a product that is a clone of it, but we're talking MIS here. The long and short of it is that if MS doesn't support the platform, it's not a desktop platform. I'm not saying that's logical, the way it should be, or a goal - it's just the way it is. Maury To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 19:37:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from charlie.cns.iit.edu (charlie.cns.iit.edu [216.47.143.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7C414F94 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:37:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maneben@charlie.cns.iit.edu) Received: from localhost (maneben@localhost) by charlie.cns.iit.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id VAA96086; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:38:55 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:38:55 -0500 (CDT) From: "Benjamin M. Manes" To: Maury Markowitz Cc: "'freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: RE: An article from Microsoft In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > They're testing _Windows_ printing performance on Unix using 3rd party > software and saying it's not as good as a pure Windows printing solution. > Is this supposed to surprise me? Notably when it appears that MS goes out of > it's way to break SAMBA with every upgrade? I still don't think this should be on the list... but I'll shout out to stop some mistruths. If you listen to linux4u.com, the samba co-founder actuall says MS helps them, sending them reports for w2k, and such. MS uses it, and it uses MS's protocals and such perfectly. He was not anti-MS, or for MS.. he merely seemed very happy to be able to bring UNIX and Windows together. > > Linux Needs Real World Proof Points Rather than Anecdotal Stories > > Ok, here's my "real world" one. Last week NT4.0SP5 did a blue-screen on > me. I was using it to edit a web page in DreamWeaver at the time - the page > included text and one picture (_no_ java or scripts or anything). If it > can't do that without crashing the kernel, you expect me to run an > e-business on it?! Some of this is because applications are poorly written and try to use memory they aren't allowed, and thus the BSOD. Of course, that's still an MS fault with a poor memory manager.. but also, after using NT as a desktop OS for 1.5-2 years, and seeing it in the workplace, its not meant for average use. It dies, badly. And NTFS is hell. If you run only a few applications, which is all that people do in the workplace (ie, IDL, MathCad, etc) and no more, than it never dies. If you vary a lot, it does. That's why MS made w9x and NT, they are meant for different usages. The IT guys had no idea what to do, they wanted > to do a re-install or suggested I use something else for POP because this > sort of thing happened "all the time". To be fair, reinstalling is one of the most efficent ways to fix an NT system. Just doing that can solve many conflicts, and if your smart, you setup scripts to automaticly reinstall / configure your applications. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 19:58:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (staff.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BB69E14A14 for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 19:58:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mhenry@black.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au) Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 12:58:20 +1000 (EST) From: "Michael Kenneth Henry" In-Reply-To: from "Benjamin M. Manes" at Oct 7, 99 07:51:40 pm Content-Type: text Content-Length: 730 Message-Id: <19991008025832.BB69E14A14@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > > > > Alas... is there any kind of application *not* available to Linux? > > > > Well, Microsoft Office, Links386 (a golf game which I enjoyed immensely > > in my days on DOS), a flight simulator is another app I miss, and my > > Dad wants to use Quicken. > > You left yourself very widely open: > Office - StarOffice, Aplix, Corel (Corel only WP) I said "Microsoft Office", not "An application that has similar functionality to Microsoft Office". > Links386 - dosemu On a desktop machine being run by everyday (ie. clueless) users? I don't think so. > Quicken - eventually WINE, poor quality UNIX alternatives. As above. > Quicken is > slowly adding Web based version too. So you have to be online to use it? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Thu Oct 7 21:20: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E57C114BDE for ; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 21:19:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org ([216.62.157.60]) by mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FJ900I0HO0LCU@mta1.rcsntx.swbell.net> for advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 7 Oct 1999 23:19:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA00572 for advocacy@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 07 Oct 1999 23:19:04 -0500 (CDT envelope-from chris) X-URL: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~chris/ Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 23:19:04 -0500 From: Chris Costello Subject: (fwd) Re: Wanted Unix Administrator To: advocacy@FreeBSD.org Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <19991007231903.U86678@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT (i386) Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Throwing a juicy piece of steak into the advocacy pit. :) Ignoring the contraversial first non-quoted paragraph, this is a great article. This article's Message-ID is ----- Forwarded message ----- Rev. Don Kool wrote: >danielt@danielt.dgii.com wrote: >> Rev. Don Kool wrote >> >"Gary L. Burnore" wrote: >> >> Chris Costello wrote: >> >> >Rev. Don Kool wrote: >> > >> >> >>> The world record for transfers is currently held by a non-cray, non-sgi, >> >> >>> non-sun, non-Digital Unix system. Is a world record considered high end? >> >> > >> >> >> No, it is considered a stunt. Do you belive that Cindy Margolis is >> >> >> the most beautiful girl in the world? >> >> > >> >> > No, handling high amounts of data in the real world is >> >> >called "reliability." >> >> >> >> Reverand Don obviously only keeps his "church" records on his computer. He >> >> doesn't NEED real world reliability. He doesn't NEED high end or world record >> >> data throughput. Because he doesn't need it, he can't understand why anyone >> >> else would. Since he's never understood the innerworkings of operating systems >> >> with the minutely possible exception of his favorite brand, he's trapped >> >> himself and he can't get up. >> > >> > You'll have to excuse Gary. He's still trying to figure out how to >> >work a kill file. ROTFLOLASTD!! > >> Are you trying to say that you want to be added to our killfiles Don? > > No, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other. You just need to >know Gary's ways to understand it. He talks a big show about >putting people in his killfile (like they should care) and then >keeps responding to them. He's mad at me because one time when he >got shitty with me I checked him out on the 'net and found out that >he is on probation for being a child molester. He flames everyone >but never contributes any help beyond RTFM. I'm sure you'll see him >around here some more. Notwithstanding your hatred of Gary Burnore, who is not a child molester, though who is perhaps a perplexed soul who needs, and, I trust, has found help, your implicit challenge as the non-pareil of UNIX admins could not go unchallenged. I had never used FreeBSD before, but I decided to give it a try after your unending diatribes against it (and against Linux). See, you come off as half-smart, but not truly smart -- about as smart as a robot. How could a man who claims to know so much about all of UNIX be so thick-headed and closed-minded, I asked myself. Mind you, I'm no huge fan of Linux, though I do have it running as my DNS servers. I prefer AIX, myself, including a smallish SP complex. Sun is OK. Digital (Compaq) Unix is adequate, though nothing special. HP-UX I know nothing about. We run BSDI on our firewalls. I followed some fellow's advice (posted in comp.unix.admin a couple of days ago) about downloading two diskette images and installing BSD over the net. Well, he had the URL wrong, but it was not difficult to find them at the www.freebsd.org website. I created the diskettes. I updated the firewall so I had internet access from the IP address I assigned the box I was installing. I booted the machine. It asked me a few questions about addressing and such. I looked at it about every 15 minutes. Sometimes it wanted answers to questions like "what additional software do you want to install?" This was the most time-consuming question because I didn't want everything. (Man, there's huge amounts of proggies available!) I answered them and went back to work. I config'ed X (KDE) with XF86Setup. A while later I rebooted. Shazzam! A UNIX box! This was the *easiest* UNIX I've ever installed. I didn't have to read any release notes, how-tos, or anything else. I am much impressed. I suspect you are a troll, Don, and not a true UNIX man, for your mindless intransigence against one of the two revered branches of UNIX could not come from a thinking man. I further suspect this is why you call yourself "Rev." Kool --- to be anti-reverent and to be inflammatory --- to cast fire but provide no light. You are not "kool" though you are a wet blanket. I understand now why you work for the government, for you would perish in a real-world, customer-driven environment. ----- End forwarded message ----- -- |Chris Costello |Programming is an unnatural act. `---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 3:38:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D8414FEB for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 03:38:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p13-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.132.6.142]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id TAA08551; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:37:57 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FD89FB.A73DC41@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:06:51 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Cc: Michael Kenneth Henry , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft References: <19991008003859.BFB6014BB7@hub.freebsd.org> <37FD4D1E.62F585E8@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde wrote: > > I'll give you a clue... that's an understatement. :-) I need something > which will work for multiple generations of a board, ending up with a > surface-mount design. I need design-rule checking on the fly, because > often the schematic changes on an hourly basis. I also need stuff thast > makes drill 'tapes' for production boards as well. The reality is that > FreeBSD (and that L OS) are far short of engineeering tools with the > notable exception of Mathematica. If Intel can use it, why can't you??? > just crude proto's. One evenmtually needs to send the client pro-quality > boards, and neither of the Open Source EDA packages can fill the bill. Ah, but we are not restricting ourselves to the Open Source EDA packages, are we? There are commercial EDAs available. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 3:38:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2549314F85 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 03:38:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p13-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.132.6.142]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id TAA08540; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 19:37:54 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FD8964.54EB9E5B@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:04:20 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Michael Kenneth Henry Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft References: <19991008002631.8A2BF153BE@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Michael Kenneth Henry wrote: > > > I claim most desktops do nothing but games and office-type > > applications, both of which are available to Linux. > > You're kidding, right? Just because xboing is available for Linux > does not mean it's a substitute for "The Need for Speed". It has Quake and Civ:CTP, what else do you want? :-) Sure, Windows has MUCH more. But Linux does have decent games. > > Alas... is there any kind of application *not* available to Linux? > > Well, Microsoft Office, Links386 (a golf game which I enjoyed immensely > in my days on DOS), a flight simulator is another app I miss, and my > Dad wants to use Quicken. Microsoft Office is of the kind "office suit". Applixware exists. Games are games. Quicken-like applications also exist. So, all kinds of applications you enumerated exist. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 4:33:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B540C14E91 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 04:33:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-002.thuntek.net [207.66.52.2]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id FAA13200; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 05:33:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37FDD981.734B902D@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 05:46:09 -0600 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Michael Kenneth Henry , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft References: <19991008003859.BFB6014BB7@hub.freebsd.org> <37FD4D1E.62F585E8@thuntek.net> <37FD89FB.A73DC41@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > Ah, but we are not restricting ourselves to the Open Source EDA > packages, are we? There are commercial EDAs available. > That will run on FreeBSD? Tell me more! -- Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 6:14:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from fed-ef1.frb.gov (fed.frb.gov [132.200.32.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C94FA14E7B for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:14:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from seth@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org) Received: by fed-ef1.frb.gov; id JAA02380; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 09:14:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: from m1pmdf.frb.gov(192.168.3.38) by fed.frb.gov via smap (V4.2) id xma002008; Fri, 8 Oct 99 09:13:38 -0400 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:13:31 -0400 From: Seth Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft In-reply-to: <37FD8964.54EB9E5B@newsguy.com> To: advocacy@freebsd.org Message-id: <19991008091331.A71866@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii References: <19991008002631.8A2BF153BE@hub.freebsd.org> <37FD8964.54EB9E5B@newsguy.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Um, Points all very well taken, but we seem to be a bit off-topic here with all the discussion about applications & games available to *Linux*. Last I checked, this was *freebsd*-advocacy. :) SB > Michael Kenneth Henry wrote: > > > > > I claim most desktops do nothing but games and office-type > > > applications, both of which are available to Linux. > > > > You're kidding, right? Just because xboing is available for Linux > > does not mean it's a substitute for "The Need for Speed". > > It has Quake and Civ:CTP, what else do you want? :-) > > Sure, Windows has MUCH more. But Linux does have decent games. > > > > Alas... is there any kind of application *not* available to Linux? > > > > Well, Microsoft Office, Links386 (a golf game which I enjoyed immensely > > in my days on DOS), a flight simulator is another app I miss, and my > > Dad wants to use Quicken. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 6:31:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.xmission.com (mail.xmission.com [198.60.22.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2725014D87 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 06:31:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from [204.68.178.39] (helo=softweyr.com) by mail.xmission.com with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 11Za7Y-0004Hd-00; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:31:41 -0600 Message-ID: <37FDF239.2E7B3A40@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 07:31:37 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chris@calldei.com Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Wanted Unix Administrator References: <19991007231903.U86678@holly.calldei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Chris Costello wrote: > > Throwing a juicy piece of steak into the advocacy pit. :) > > Ignoring the contraversial first non-quoted paragraph, this is > a great article. Was this posted on Usenet? Perhaps someone should ask the original author if we can use the part I've excerpted below as a customer testimonial, or a short article for DN. ;^) > This article's Message-ID is > > > ----- Forwarded message ----- > > I had never used FreeBSD before, but I decided to give it a try > after your unending diatribes against it (and against Linux). See, > you come off as half-smart, but not truly smart -- about as smart as > a robot. How could a man who claims to know so much about all of > UNIX be so thick-headed and closed-minded, I asked myself. > > Mind you, I'm no huge fan of Linux, though I do have it running as > my DNS servers. I prefer AIX, myself, including a smallish SP > complex. Sun is OK. Digital (Compaq) Unix is adequate, though > nothing special. HP-UX I know nothing about. We run BSDI on our > firewalls. > > I followed some fellow's advice (posted in comp.unix.admin a couple > of days ago) about downloading two diskette images and installing > BSD over the net. Well, he had the URL wrong, but it was not > difficult to find them at the www.freebsd.org website. > > I created the diskettes. I updated the firewall so I had internet > access from the IP address I assigned the box I was installing. I > booted the machine. It asked me a few questions about addressing and > such. I looked at it about every 15 minutes. Sometimes it wanted > answers to questions like "what additional software do you want to > install?" This was the most time-consuming question because I didn't > want everything. (Man, there's huge amounts of proggies available!) > I answered them and went back to work. I config'ed X (KDE) with > XF86Setup. A while later I rebooted. Shazzam! A UNIX box! This was > the *easiest* UNIX I've ever installed. I didn't have to read any > release notes, how-tos, or anything else. I am much impressed. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 7:53:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35BA914BEF for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:53:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p17-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.132.6.146]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id XAA27385; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:53:22 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FE04F9.B428F3B5@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:51:37 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Cc: Michael Kenneth Henry , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft References: <19991008003859.BFB6014BB7@hub.freebsd.org> <37FD4D1E.62F585E8@thuntek.net> <37FD89FB.A73DC41@newsguy.com> <37FDD981.734B902D@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde wrote: > > "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > > Ah, but we are not restricting ourselves to the Open Source EDA > > packages, are we? There are commercial EDAs available. > > > That will run on FreeBSD? Tell me more! I don't know about FreeBSD. The article discusses Linux, and that's what I'm discussing in this thread, in freebsd-advocacy. It's off-topic, but it's off-topic from the first message. What do we care what Microsoft says about Linux, as far as freebsd-advocacy goes? I started to make a list of vendors/products, but realized it would be simpler just to point to http://www.linuxeda.com/. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 7:55:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F5B514BEF for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 07:55:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p17-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.132.6.146]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id XAA27880; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 23:55:09 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FE0565.AF1D8B08@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 23:53:25 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Cc: Michael Kenneth Henry , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft References: <19991008003859.BFB6014BB7@hub.freebsd.org> <37FD4D1E.62F585E8@thuntek.net> <37FD89FB.A73DC41@newsguy.com> <37FDD981.734B902D@thuntek.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Donald Wilde wrote: > > "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > > Ah, but we are not restricting ourselves to the Open Source EDA > > packages, are we? There are commercial EDAs available. > > > That will run on FreeBSD? Tell me more! Another link I forgot (well, it's cross referenced, but...): http://SAL.KachinaTech.COM/Z/1/index.shtml -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 10:41: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A81714D6C for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:40:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA25407; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:40:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd025319; Fri Oct 8 10:40:47 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA06122; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 10:40:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199910081740.KAA06122@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Benchmarks: FreeBSD vs. Windows vs. Linux To: jodonald@cfunet.net (Jim O'Donald) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:40:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <73FC0300EDDAD211872300902746017B01D14F@CFU9> from "Jim O'Donald" at Oct 6, 99 12:31:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Of course the fact that it's written by Microsoft makes it biased. Does > anyone know anything about benchmarking? I would love to take a default > installation of Windows NT/IIS and a default installation of > FreeBSD/Samba/Apache and do some real-world tests. I would recommend > performing this on test on equipment that I routinely see implemented in > networks, not high-end 4-way servers. > > If anyone knows about benchmarking, please let me know. I have the > equipment to do this testing with, but don't know anything about how to go > about measuring the response times. Samba on Linux or FreeBSD can't beat Windows, especially in the SMP case, and especially without stacking the deck in favor of Samba by using Windows NT workstation instead of Windows 98 clients (which is ridiculous, since most people are _not_ running NT workstation on their desktops). FreeBSD (and Linux) need a lot of kernel API work, and Samba nees some modifications, for either system to do as well as a Windows server. It's possible, but no one has integrated the work, or is willing to "pollute" (their wirds, not mine) their kernel API in support of this. That said, the tests you want are "NetBench" and "ServerBench", they are available from: http://www.zdnet.com/zdbop/netbench/netbench.html and http://www.zdnet.com/zdbop/svrbench/svrbench.html respectively. If you want to run "ServerBench", you will need to do so under Linux emulation, as there is not a FreeBSD port. You could also run the older "LANPerf" program. It appears to only be available from: http://tiimibbs.icl.fi/LMUTILS/LANPERF.ZIP I'll tell you right now, having worked for a company that optimized a Linux server (and Linux itself) to get good marks on "LANPerf" (Artisoft, Inc., Tucson, AZ), that Linux or FreeBSD out of the box, with Samba, will not perform as well as a native windows system on these tests. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 11:17:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A61E14A29 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 11:17:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p23-dn01kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.132.6.152]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id DAA27815 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 03:17:26 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FE1EF1.6544AB38@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 01:42:25 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG There is an interesting critic to the famous ESR's article at http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue4_10/bezroukov/index.html. Interestingly, FreeBSD (and Jordan) is mentioned. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 13:27: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pike.cdrom.com (pike.cdrom.com [204.216.28.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4561D14A0D for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:27:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rab@pike.cdrom.com) Received: from pike.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by pike.cdrom.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA10339; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:28:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199910082028.NAA10339@pike.cdrom.com> To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: rab@pike.cdrom.com Subject: What makes the Big Sites Run? Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 13:28:21 -0700 From: "Robert A. Bruce" Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On page 112 of the Oct 19th PC-Magazine, they have a list titled "What makes the Big Sites Run?", listing the OS, hardware, database, webserver and search engine that 15 big sites use. Here is the info on OS'es: About.com FreeBSD, Win-NT, Solaris Amazon.com Unix BroadCast.com FreeBSD, Linux, MacOS, Win-NT, Solaris eBay Win-NT, Solaris GO Network Win-NT, Solaris Go2Net BSDi, FreeBSD, Linux, Win-NT, Solaris Juno Solaris Looksmart Solaris Lycos Digital Unix, Win-NT, Solaris Microsoft.com Win-NT RealNetworks Linux Viacom Online Solaris Xoom.com FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris Yahoo! FreeBSD ZDNet Solaris -bob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 13:44:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 460F214D29 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:44:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org ([216.62.157.60]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FJA00DYNXMD0E@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:44:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA02477; Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:43:55 -0500 (CDT envelope-from chris) X-URL: http://www.FreeBSD.org/~chris/ Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 15:43:54 -0500 From: Chris Costello Subject: Re: (fwd) Re: Wanted Unix Administrator In-reply-to: <37FDF239.2E7B3A40@softweyr.com> To: Wes Peters Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Message-id: <19991008154354.V86678@holly.calldei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.4i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT (i386) References: <19991007231903.U86678@holly.calldei.com> <37FDF239.2E7B3A40@softweyr.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, Oct 08, 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > Was this posted on Usenet? Perhaps someone should ask the original author > if we can use the part I've excerpted below as a customer testimonial, or > a short article for DN. ;^) I'll leave it up to DN people: From: rsheffield@trestigres.com (Raymond Sheffield) Newsgroups: comp.unix.admin Subject: Re: Wanted Unix Administrator -- |Chris Costello |It is easier to change the specification to fit the program than vice versa. `---------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 13:57:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 140EE14D29 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:57:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (ind.alcatel.com 2.3 [OUT])) id NAA04121; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id NAA00340; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 13:55:49 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA15667; Fri, 8 Oct 99 13:55:25 PDT Message-Id: <37FE5A4C.E2086B96@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 14:55:40 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: dwilde1@thuntek.net, Michael Kenneth Henry , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft References: <19991008003859.BFB6014BB7@hub.freebsd.org> <37FD4D1E.62F585E8@thuntek.net> <37FD89FB.A73DC41@newsguy.com> <37FDD981.734B902D@thuntek.net> <37FE04F9.B428F3B5@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > Donald Wilde wrote: > > > > "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > > > > Ah, but we are not restricting ourselves to the Open Source EDA > > > packages, are we? There are commercial EDAs available. > > > > > That will run on FreeBSD? Tell me more! > > I don't know about FreeBSD. The article discusses Linux, and that's > what I'm discussing in this thread, in freebsd-advocacy. It's > off-topic, but it's off-topic from the first message. What do we > care what Microsoft says about Linux, as far as freebsd-advocacy > goes? Not necessarily. To a great extent, Linux apps *are* FreeBSD apps, and advocacy of open systems is FreeBSD advocacy. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 14: 8:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A79515284 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:08:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA88427; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 14:08:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <37FE5D4F.CF099EC6@owp.csus.edu> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 21:08:31 +0000 From: Joseph Scott Organization: Water Programs - CSU Sacramento X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.36 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Robert A. Bruce" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What makes the Big Sites Run? References: <199910082028.NAA10339@pike.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Robert A. Bruce" wrote: > > On page 112 of the Oct 19th PC-Magazine, they have a list > titled "What makes the Big Sites Run?", listing the OS, > hardware, database, webserver and search engine that 15 > big sites use. Here is the info on OS'es: > > About.com FreeBSD, Win-NT, Solaris > Amazon.com Unix > BroadCast.com FreeBSD, Linux, MacOS, Win-NT, Solaris > eBay Win-NT, Solaris > GO Network Win-NT, Solaris > Go2Net BSDi, FreeBSD, Linux, Win-NT, Solaris > Juno Solaris > Looksmart Solaris > Lycos Digital Unix, Win-NT, Solaris > Microsoft.com Win-NT > RealNetworks Linux > Viacom Online Solaris > Xoom.com FreeBSD, Linux, Solaris > Yahoo! FreeBSD > ZDNet Solaris > > -bob Is this online anywhere? -- Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Office Of Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 15: 2:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B94A714F78; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:02:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (ind.alcatel.com 2.3 [OUT])) id PAA05500; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:02:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id PAA03381; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:02:03 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn0.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA19690; Fri, 8 Oct 99 15:01:47 PDT Message-Id: <37FE69D9.D0CB3836@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 16:02:01 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar References: <37FE1EF1.6544AB38@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > There is an interesting critic to the famous ESR's article at > http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue4_10/bezroukov/index.html. > Interestingly, FreeBSD (and Jordan) is mentioned. This is quite a good article, with some interesting points to make. For instance, I think many in -hackers will find this all too close to the target: Yet little is known about how Internet-based virtual teams (IVT) really operate and what problems develop in that sort of cooperation. Some evident problems are: o overload and subsequent burnout of leading developers due to excessive load, with significant loss of interest in a given product; o a conservative approach to architecture (it's really difficult to change the architecture of a product after its development has started) o e-mail based written communication to some degree tends to distort meaning and invite fights and flame wars. Hmm. Sound familiar? This is worth a read for everyone, that's why I've emailed this to -chat as well. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC wes@softweyr.com http://softweyr.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 15:14:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB4BE14DF3 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:14:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-048.thuntek.net [207.66.52.48]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id QAA27281; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:14:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37FE6CCC.7216A29A@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 16:14:36 -0600 From: Donald Wilde Reply-To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Organization: Wilde Media X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.2-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Joseph Scott Cc: "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What makes the Big Sites Run? References: <199910082028.NAA10339@pike.cdrom.com> <37FE5D4F.CF099EC6@owp.csus.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG They also missed the one that was discovered a few days ago. What was it, homepages.msn.com on some UNIX OS w/Apache? -- Donald Wilde "Linking Minds and Micros" ================= S i l v e r L y n x =================== PMB 117, 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd SE v: 505-771-0709 f: 771-1356 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 web: http://www.Wilde-Media.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 15:49:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8BA214F6B for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 15:49:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16083; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:49:11 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:49:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Donald Wilde Cc: Joseph Scott , "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What makes the Big Sites Run? In-Reply-To: <37FE6CCC.7216A29A@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hi, On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: from Netcraft: homepages.msn.com is running Apache/1.3.9 (Unix) on Solaris Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 16: 3:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id F1F0514E33; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E37ED1CD460; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:03:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:03:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Taylor Cc: Donald Wilde , Joseph Scott , "Robert A. Bruce" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What makes the Big Sites Run? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Fri, 8 Oct 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > from Netcraft: > > homepages.msn.com is running Apache/1.3.9 (Unix) on Solaris Anyone happen to know what their excuse for this one is? They can't claim it was a pre-existing setup, because they BUILT msn. Kris ---- XOR for AES -- join the campaign! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 16:18:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from charlie.cns.iit.edu (charlie.cns.iit.edu [216.47.143.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90C7214FA1; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 16:18:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maneben@charlie.cns.iit.edu) Received: from localhost (maneben@localhost) by charlie.cns.iit.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id SAA82648; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:19:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 18:19:30 -0500 (CDT) From: "Benjamin M. Manes" To: Wes Peters Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar In-Reply-To: <37FE69D9.D0CB3836@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > This is quite a good article, with some interesting points to make. For > instance, I think many in -hackers will find this all too close to the > target: Yet, in some ways its not. Its somewhere in the middle of being good, and of being.. bad. Some parts of it, which you noted, are worthy to bookmark and use this as a reference, while others.... I'll simply refer to ESR's responce: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/response-to-bezroukov.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 20:43:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C5A15357; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 20:43:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10631; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:42:55 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991008205825.044453d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 21:21:23 -0600 To: Wes Peters , "Daniel C. Sobral" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37FE69D9.D0CB3836@softweyr.com> References: <37FE1EF1.6544AB38@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG At 04:02 PM 10/8/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >"Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: > > > > There is an interesting critic to the famous ESR's article at > > http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue4_10/bezroukov/index.html. > > Interestingly, FreeBSD (and Jordan) is mentioned. > >This is quite a good article, with some interesting points to make. And a few REALLY serious mistakes, especially where FreeBSD is concerned. For example: " Being less PC-friendly then Linux and due to legal problems with AT&T, at some point the FreeBSD movement lost momentum and later suffered also from an internal split (OpenBSD)." Like many writers who cover open source, he seems to go out of his way to dismiss the BSDs, applying several of the bogus arguments in Raymond's "Halloween memo." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Fri Oct 8 22: 5: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.mindspring.com (smtp6.mindspring.com [207.69.200.110]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2E1814CA2 for ; Fri, 8 Oct 1999 22:05:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: from confusion.net (user-2iveaav.dialup.mindspring.com [165.247.41.95]) by smtp6.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA27315; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:05:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <37FECCD9.467A056A@confusion.net> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 01:04:25 -0400 From: Laurence Berland Organization: B.R.A.T.T. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Seth Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An article from Microsoft References: <19991008002631.8A2BF153BE@hub.freebsd.org> <37FD8964.54EB9E5B@newsguy.com> <19991008091331.A71866@freebie.dp.ny.frb.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG If you're one of the many people who believe Linux growth will help FreeBSD as well, than it seems pertinent. Also, if they can run it we can run it (ok, not always, but most of the time) under emulation, so it becomes defacto available for freebsd. I guess I for one believe that as open source in general grows, people will start looking, stumble on FreeBSD, and see how great it really is. On a side note about the office wars, IMO applix or staroffice are not an adequate replacement for MS Office, especially for people like my mother who don't get why xyz feature isn't in them, or why it takes so long to load (with SO you load the whole suit at once). Hopefully Koffice will change that. (does anybody know if they're gonna make sure it runs on FBSD? the website doesnt really say) Laurence Seth wrote: > > Um, > > Points all very well taken, but we seem to be a bit off-topic here with > all the discussion about applications & games available to *Linux*. > > Last I checked, this was *freebsd*-advocacy. :) > > SB > > > Michael Kenneth Henry wrote: > > > > > > > I claim most desktops do nothing but games and office-type > > > > applications, both of which are available to Linux. > > > > > > You're kidding, right? Just because xboing is available for Linux > > > does not mean it's a substitute for "The Need for Speed". > > > > It has Quake and Civ:CTP, what else do you want? :-) > > > > Sure, Windows has MUCH more. But Linux does have decent games. > > > > > > Alas... is there any kind of application *not* available to Linux? > > > > > > Well, Microsoft Office, Links386 (a golf game which I enjoyed immensely > > > in my days on DOS), a flight simulator is another app I miss, and my > > > Dad wants to use Quicken. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Laurence Berland, Stuyvesant HS Debate <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Windows 98: n. useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. http://stuy.debate.net icq #7434346 aol imer E1101 The above email Copyright (C) 1999 Laurence Berland All rights reserved To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 9 0: 9:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F8EF158FD; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 00:09:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com (p20-dn03kiryunisiki.gunma.ocn.ne.jp [210.232.224.149]) by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) with ESMTP id QAA02574; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 16:09:10 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37FEE9AC.DA06F3AF@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 16:07:24 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en,pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Benjamin M. Manes" Cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG "Benjamin M. Manes" wrote: > > > This is quite a good article, with some interesting points to make. For > > instance, I think many in -hackers will find this all too close to the > > target: > > Yet, in some ways its not. Its somewhere in the middle of being good, and > of being.. bad. Some parts of it, which you noted, are worthy to bookmark > and use this as a reference, while others.... I'll simply refer to ESR's > responce: http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/response-to-bezroukov.html Well, the part about OpenBSD splitting from FreeBS was a little bit... off the mark? :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "I always feel generous when I'm in the inner circle of a conspiracy to subvert the world order and, with a small group of allies, just defeated an alien invasion. Maybe I should value myself a little more?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 9 1:41:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 634BE14F8C; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 01:41:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.197.20]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAE370E; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:41:13 +0200 Received: (from asmodai@localhost) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA28102; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:39:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:39:41 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: Wes Peters , "Daniel C. Sobral" , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Critic to The Cathedral and The Bazaar Message-ID: <19991009103941.E28001@daemon.ninth-circle.org> References: <37FE1EF1.6544AB38@newsguy.com> <37FE69D9.D0CB3836@softweyr.com> <4.2.0.58.19991008205825.044453d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991008205825.044453d0@localhost> Organisation: Ninth-Circle Enterprises Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On [19991009 08:00], Brett Glass (brett@lariat.org) wrote: >At 04:02 PM 10/8/99 -0600, Wes Peters wrote: >>"Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: >> > There is an interesting critic to the famous ESR's article at >> > http://www.firstmonday.dk/issues/issue4_10/bezroukov/index.html. >> > Interestingly, FreeBSD (and Jordan) is mentioned. >>This is quite a good article, with some interesting points to make. >And a few REALLY serious mistakes, especially where FreeBSD >is concerned. For example: I won't start on that door you just opened. =P >" Being less PC-friendly then Linux and due to legal problems with AT&T, >at some point the FreeBSD movement lost momentum and later suffered also >from an internal split (OpenBSD)." s/FreeBSD/NetBSD right? I seriously wonder why people why write articles which `attack' other articles do not do proper research prior to releasing it. I mean, this is an error which actually puts FreeBSD in a somewhat negative light whilst being completely untrue. *sigh* -- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven/Asmodai asmodai(at)wxs.nl The BSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist BSD: Technical excellence at its best Delirious again, mesmerise my senses, our Souls entwine one more time... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 9 8:24:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from pop3-3.enteract.com (pop3-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5B0111502C for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 08:24:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bitsurfr@enteract.com) Received: (qmail 20870 invoked from network); 9 Oct 1999 15:24:05 -0000 Received: from 207-229-142-145.d.enteract.com (HELO wildrock) (207.229.142.145) by pop3-3.enteract.com with SMTP; 9 Oct 1999 15:24:05 -0000 From: "Chris Silva" To: "advocacy@FreeBSD. ORG" Subject: Some suggestions please. Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:24:37 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG Hey folks - Ok - I have makeworld.com online - My intensions (With God' help) is to maybe provide support for Free, Net and Open on this site. I'm very new to this - I am willing to devote as much time as needed (I want to make this work). FreeBSD *is* and *always* will be the main focus, but I thought supporting the other less-known would help all around. Please - feel free to criticize, help, suggest, etc. I'm very open... Like I said, I *want* to make this work... I intend to make this *my* contribution to the project. Thanks for your ears ;) Best regards, Chris _____________________________________________________________________ RSA Key Fingerprint = 6D0B 5536 7825 3D09 9093 384A 9694 FDB6 RSA Key Fingerprint = 4390 44E5 E316 F2AA A11E 5755 F3F9 D69B DH/DSS Fingerprint = 089B 0B5C 75C7 A7B4 B050 DD14 2D65 5DD6 E87D 239A PGP Mail encouraged / preferred - keys available on common key servers _____________________________________________________________________ Proud supporter of FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and BSDi To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 9 11:53:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from mail.netwalk.com (mail.netwalk.com [216.69.192.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D0715453 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 11:53:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from pokey.local.net (root@arc9-100.wblt.netwalk.net [216.69.202.100]) by mail.netwalk.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12977; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:53:29 -0400 Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA16477; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:53:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:59:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: Chris Silva Cc: "advocacy@FreeBSD. ORG" Subject: Re: Some suggestions please. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG :Hey folks - : : Ok - I have makeworld.com online - My intensions (With God' help) :is to maybe provide support for Free, Net and Open on this site. : : I'm very new to this - I am willing to devote as much time as :needed (I want to make this work). : : FreeBSD *is* and *always* will be the main focus, but I thought :supporting the other less-known would help all around. : : Please - feel free to criticize, help, suggest, etc. :I'm very open... Like I said, I *want* to make this work... : : I intend to make this *my* contribution to the project. :Thanks for your ears ;) : :Best regards, : Chris I don't know if others feel this way, but I'm pretty fond of the various daemonnews.org sites. At this point, my suggestion would be to contact the folks who currently maintain that site and ask if you can do anything for them. I would rather see one central point for all things BSD than see 15 or 20 *BSD sites all struggling to survive. Just my opinion though, for whatever that's worth. -- Jim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 9 12:27:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4897D14D01; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 12:27:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA20500; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 18:12:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 18:12:19 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Mark Ovens Cc: Nik Clayton , Alfred Perlstein , Joel Sutton , freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux convert... Message-ID: <19991009181219.A20278@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19991006234303.A28145@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <19991007204945.A817@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19991007204945.A817@marder-1>; from Mark Ovens on Thu, Oct 07, 1999 at 08:49:45PM +0100 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG On Thu, Oct 07, 1999 at 08:49:45PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:43:03PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 01:20:26AM -0700, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > Ah, you aren't familiar with the FreeBSD much hyped > > > (or maybe not hyped enough... hrm) "make world" facility. > > > > > > http://www.nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk/FreeBSD/make-world/make-world.html > > > > For future reference: the version of this that's now in the Handbook > > is the canonical version. The URL above will (this weekend) be replaced > > with a pointer to the Handbook. > > > > I used this doc when I did my first cvsup src-all. One thing that > should be changed is the reference to using dircmp.pl "which is > installed by default on FreeBSD versions 2.0 and above". Not on > 3.1 it ain't (and it doesn't run under perl5 either). This should > be changed to mergemaster (in the ports). Diffs! Diffs! Diffs! This is why it's now in the tree. I haven't got the time to maintain it properly now, so the 'community' can support it. send-pr as usual should do the trick. N -- PS: Sorry for the delay in replying. What with work, buying a house, moving in to the house, fixing the plumbing in the house, and paying the bills, I've been a little busy recently. I'm back to e-mail now, and catching up. . . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 9 18: 1:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from staff.cs.usyd.edu.au (staff.cs.usyd.edu.au [129.78.8.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2473014E75 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 18:01:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mhenry@black.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au) Subject: Re: Some suggestions please. To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 11:01:24 +1000 (EST) From: "Michael Kenneth Henry" In-Reply-To: from "Chris Silva" at Oct 9, 99 10:24:37 am Content-Type: text Content-Length: 981 Message-Id: <19991010010131.2473014E75@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > Ok - I have makeworld.com online - My intensions (With God' help) > is to maybe provide support for Free, Net and Open on this site. > > I'm very new to this - I am willing to devote as much time as > needed (I want to make this work). I think we (the FreeBSD community) need to co-operate more on our advocacy sites. If everyone ploughs ahead and makes an advocacy site, we will not get the most "value for money". We currently have daily.daemonnews.org and freebsd.tesserae.com doing basically the same thing. (ie. Slashdot-like news sites). I'm not sure the market exists for yet another advocacy site. You say it will "provide support"; does this mean something like freebsd.peon.net? > FreeBSD *is* and *always* will be the main focus, but I thought > supporting the other less-known would help all around. This is a good idea. (Although I wouldn't call them "less-known". If there were any advocates of Net or OpenBSD around you might start a flame war :) ). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-advocacy Sat Oct 9 18:29:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Received: from charlie.cns.iit.edu (charlie.cns.iit.edu [216.47.143.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BED14C37 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 18:29:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from maneben@charlie.cns.iit.edu) Received: from localhost (maneben@localhost) by charlie.cns.iit.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id UAA25509 for ; Sat, 9 Oct 1999 20:31:06 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 20:31:06 -0500 (CDT) From: "Benjamin M. Manes" To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Some suggestions please. In-Reply-To: <19991010010131.2473014E75@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.ORG > I'm not sure the market exists for yet another advocacy site. You say > it will "provide support"; does this mean something like freebsd.peon.net? > > > FreeBSD *is* and *always* will be the main focus, but I thought > > supporting the other less-known would help all around. > > This is a good idea. (Although I wouldn't call them "less-known". If there > were any advocates of Net or OpenBSD around you might start a flame war :) ). Makeworld.xxx was dropped as an advocacy site name because it should not be a FreeBSD, or FreeBSD orionted advocacy site. If it was to become an advoacy site, it would be best to have people from all three groups maintain and contribute to the site. But, alas, we should probably rally behind a few advocacy news sites, such as DN, rather than having a bunch of little ones. Instead of making it a slashdot-like news site, why not make it an archive for a huge amount of resources. There's so much more than news out there, and contibuting articles among other things would be very beneficial. Modelling it after Linux.com and Linux.org (both of which are 'ok,' but lack a lot IMO) would be a good starter. Advoacy doesn't need to be in the form of news, or just articles, it can be of showing users a real resource. New users can learn about makeworld, old users might hear some about develoement improvements that aren't quite news worthy, some new tricks for apache, some high level book reviews - whatever. There's a lot out there you can do, and I'd recomend scouting out the netbsd/openbsd advocacy list for suggestions, and a few loyalists to contribute material where you leave off. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message