From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 24 20:39:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA13582 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:39:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA13575 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:39:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA28817; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:39:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990124203921.A28796@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:39:21 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Stanford Linux people harass microslug, film at 11 Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Found this on slashdot. http://david.weekly.org/writings/antims.html "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 24 21:58:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA21767 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:58:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (host-e186.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA21760 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:58:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id AAA02158; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:58:13 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990125005813.E1916@tidalwave.net> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:58:13 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Stanford Linux people harass microslug, film at 11 Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <19990124203921.A28796@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990124203921.A28796@mooseriver.com>; from Josef Grosch on Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 08:39:21PM -0800 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 08:39:21PM -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > > Found this on slashdot. http://david.weekly.org/writings/antims.html > The best way to defeat an enemy is to become them, y'know. :) (Redhat, this means you.) -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet)| | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Jan 24 22:59:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28676 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:59:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28661; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 22:59:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id AAA13378; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:59:46 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990125005946.U2971@futuresouth.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:59:46 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Matt Dillon Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/etc rc References: <199901250440.UAA00590@freefall.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199901250440.UAA00590@freefall.freebsd.org>; from Matt Dillon on Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 08:40:54PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 08:40:54PM -0800, a little birdie told me that Matt Dillon remarked > dillon 1999/01/24 20:40:54 PST > > Modified files: > etc rc > Log: > Introduce rc script for BOOTP 'diskless' boot. Well, not quite diskless This brings to mind a though that's been perking in my head in various incarnations for a while. 1) As soon as I aquire some new hardware (primarily motherboard for this system), I'm going to be making my home network a lot neater, with central fileserver etc. I was looking at using CODA for filesharing. I have two systems with flaky IDE controllers (well, they're Compaqs), so I'm probably going to just run them diskless instead of putzing with them. Now, enter the truely interesting part... I have some systems I'd like to keep on -STABLE (3.0 now), like my dialup-router, etc. And I'd like to play with -CURRENT. Now, here's the kicker; using NFS (or perhaps preferably, CODA), set it up so this diskless workstation can be booted as either 3.0 or 4.0. I realize this could well involve some truely ugly hackery (or 2 floppies, but that's cheating). Since I'll probably have both trees on the fileserver anyway, I wouldn't think it'd be that much trouble to fluctuate. Who wants to be the first to shoot it down? ;> --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 11:50:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00754 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:50:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smarter.than.nu (lal-99-91.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.99.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00749 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:50:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smarter.than.nu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA04704 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:50:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:50:21 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian W. Buchanan" X-Sender: brian@smarter.than.nu To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: freebsd-admin v0.2 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've released alpha version 0.2 of my GUI admin tool for FreeBSD. There aren't many visible changes, but a lot of internal reorganization was done to make things more modular, so that external modules can be easily plugged-in. It's at http://www.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/~brian/freebsd-admin/ -- Brian Buchanan brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org daemon(n): 1. an attendant power or spirit : GENIUS 2. the cute little mascot of the FreeBSD operating system To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 13:35:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14706 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:35:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14690 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:35:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA01014 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:35:44 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36ACE38A.BB715FC4@seattleu.edu> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 13:35:06 -0800 From: Eric Hodel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG" Subject: Half-Life Daemon Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------0F6C6080FC0BDDAE84ACA8F8" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------0F6C6080FC0BDDAE84ACA8F8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If any of you happen to get over to Winblows to play Half-Life online, I turned the lovely FreeBSD logo into a spraypaint for halflife (attached) -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu --------------0F6C6080FC0BDDAE84ACA8F8 Content-Type: image/x-MS-bmp; name="daemon.bmp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="daemon.bmp" 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHK2rsK8zsnGWwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABbtcGqtMXMx6BcXFkAWwAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAFtytq60 wb/OuMnEZ1sAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAGJ+oYt+tIt+Y1wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA= --------------0F6C6080FC0BDDAE84ACA8F8-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 16:10:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08894 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:10:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08875 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:10:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA18772; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:10:17 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990126111014.13423@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:10:14 +1100 From: Val Blake To: Steve Kargl Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: removing f2c from base distribution References: <199901252234.OAA02595@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199901252234.OAA02595@troutmask.apl.washington.edu>; from Steve Kargl on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 02:34:55PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 02:34:55PM -0800, Steve Kargl wrote: > Ladies and Gents, > > I have completed the portification of f2c and its support library. It's a plot! It's a plot! So, they've found and evicted sue.c have they. Hmph! I'll have to change my name, that's all :-) -- Regards, -*val*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 21:14:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02336 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:14:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02316 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:13:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA04727 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:56 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id PAA93493 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:55 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:54 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Message-ID: <19990126154354.A93469@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I picked this up in the PUPS (PDP UNIX Preservation Society) mailing list. Comments? Greg ----- Forwarded message from Michael Sokolov ----- > Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:23:32 -0500 > To: pups@minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au > Precedence: bulk > > You know, if your interest is in resurrecting CSRG, my advice to you is not to > bother with 4.4BSD-*, but to join Quasijarus Project instead. The break point > in the history of CSRG was in late 1988. Everything after that is so far from > True UNIX that I have decided to put a big X over it, turn the Universe clock > back to that point (using my SCCS Time Machine), declare all of CSRG's > post-1988 work "not really CSRG", and declare myself CSRG's true successor. > > If you look at my mail signature, you'll see that I'm the new official > maintainer of Berkeley UNIX and the principal architect of its further > development, known as Quasijarus Project. As far as I am concerned, 4.4BSD > never existed except as a "side branch" from True UNIX, and the last True UNIX > release from CSRG was 4.3BSD-Tahoe. I picked it up from that point and now I'm > maintaining and developing it just as CSRG did until 1988. I am the true > successor of true CSRG. If you want CSRG, here I am. > > BTW, it's not just that I suddenly declared myself to be the new CSRG. I earned > this title, not just assumed it. Marshall Kirk McKusick himself (the previous > maintainer of CSRG) acknowledges me as the new principal maintainer and > architect. Oh, and he doesn't even object to my decision to undo all of his and > others' 1988-1995 work with the SCCS Time Machine. He said himself in a private > E-mail that he would love to see the golden old non-bloated system resurrected. > > I have used the term "True UNIX" several times in this message. Let me explain > what I mean. While others may view the history of UNIX as a tree (you hear > about UNIX history tree diagrams all the time), I view it as a straight line. > The straight line of _mainstream_ True UNIX development looks like this: > > V6 (Bell) -> V7 (Bell) -> 32V (Bell) -> 3BSD (UCB) -> 4.0BSD (UCB) -> 4.1BSD > (UCB) -> 4.2BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD (UCB) -> 4.3BSD-Tahoe (UCB) -> > 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 (Michael Sokolov) -> future Quasijarus releases (Michael > Sokolov). > > For each release the responsible entity is indicated in parentheses. There are > several things worth noting here. Notice how after V7 and 32V the torch of True > UNIX development moves from Bell to UCB, never to return to Bell again. This is > because everything Bell did after that (System V and such) deviates from the > True UNIX ideology and loses the True UNIX torch. In late 1970s or early 1980s > UCB picks up this torch and carries it until 1988. In 1988 UCB starts deviating > from True UNIX too with the evil spirit of POSIX and everything, and loses the > torch. The torch was laying on the ground from that point until the 27th of > December 1998 when I picked it up with the 4.3BSD-Quasijarus0 release. Now I'm > carrying it into the next millennium. > > Check out the Quasijarus Project WWW page referenced in my mail signature. > > Michael Sokolov > TUHS 4BSD Coordinator > 4.3BSD-* Maintainer > Quasijarus Project Principal Architect & Developer > Phone: 440-449-0299 or 216-217-2579 > ARPA Internet SMTP mail: mxs46@k2.scl.cwru.edu > TUHS WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/TUHS/ > Quasijarus WWW page: http://minnie.cs.adfa.edu.au/Quasijarus/ ----- End forwarded message ----- -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 21:16:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02562 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:16:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA02557 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:16:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA19651; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:17:12 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:54 +1030." <19990126154354.A93469@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:17:12 -0800 Message-ID: <19624.917327832@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I picked this up in the PUPS (PDP UNIX Preservation Society) mailing > list. Comments? "Oooookaay!" :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 21:22:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03208 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.atl.bellsouth.net (mail.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA03169 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:22:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (root@host-209-214-68-227.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.68.227]) by mail.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01696; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA73087; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:38:33 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199901260538.AAA73087@bellsouth.net> To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat , wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:54 +1030." <19990126154354.A93469@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:38:33 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anybody remember True BASIC? It wasn't really very useful, even among BASIC aficionados. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 21:30:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04292 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:30:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles37.castles.com [208.214.165.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04283 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:30:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14434; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:26:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199901260526.VAA14434@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:43:54 +1030." <19990126154354.A93469@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:26:24 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I picked this up in the PUPS (PDP UNIX Preservation Society) mailing > list. Comments? Great. Another religious fanatic wielding the "I am BSD" banner. Just the sort of PR we can do with. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 21:34:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA04704 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:34:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA04696 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:34:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id VAA23254 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:34:30 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id VAA06728 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:34:29 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 05:33:55 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) In-Reply-To: <19990126154354.A93469@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan was wrong all along. There is "one true way". I never knew that the one true way did not even include AT&T. Now that we know the "one true way" we will all have to get our kilts changed again. And don't forget to get rid of all that bloat that results in a 1 MB kernel. I wish him well. Jason To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 22:17:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA10508 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:17:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA10503 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:17:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.77]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA2733; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:17:55 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990126111014.13423@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:26:22 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Val Blake Subject: Re: removing f2c from base distribution Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Steve Kargl Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jan-99 Val Blake wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 02:34:55PM -0800, Steve Kargl wrote: >> Ladies and Gents, >> >> I have completed the portification of f2c and its support library. > > It's a plot! It's a plot! > > So, they've found and evicted sue.c have they. Hmph! > I'll have to change my name, that's all :-) Next on Oprah: Women who change their names because their sources got restructured. Ah well, things could have been worse if we had a sue.h ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 22:24:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA11111 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:24:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA11106 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:24:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id BAA18510; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:24:04 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:24:04 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Mike Smith cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) In-Reply-To: <199901260526.VAA14434@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Mike Smith wrote: > Great. Another religious fanatic wielding the "I am BSD" banner. Just > the sort of PR we can do with. You know that the simple solution is to rename FreeBSD to Linux/BSD. This way we are able to use the propaganda machine that has thrust Linux into the spotlight and attract the mongol hordes. (At which point we will sweep over the whole of China! Nothing will remain un-raped!) The only downside would be forcing ourselves to put that lethargic penguin on the webpage. April approaches. I see great need. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 22:33:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12524 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:33:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA12513 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:33:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id WAA66456; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:33:24 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id WAA14697; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:33:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 06:32:49 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: "Matthew N. Dodd" cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >You know that the simple solution is to rename FreeBSD to Linux/BSD. This Uggh! This would probably actually work. Uggh! Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 22:43:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA13786 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:43:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA13753; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:43:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22645; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:46:37 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990126174636.C21039@caamora.com.au> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:46:36 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DVDs [and MPEG decoder hardware] Mail-Followup-To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-questions@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <199901252248.QAA55335@jake.lodgenet.com> <88102.917315784@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <88102.917315784@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 05:56:24PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 05:56:24PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'm looking at the same card. We're supposed to have one in this > > week. I've started a dialog with Sigma Designs to see if we can > > get the programming infos. > > Well, that's more promising news on the DVD front than I've seen for > awhile, great stuff! > > I hope something comes of this, and my letter to Brian concerning > creative labs should not be considered to be directed at Brian alone > if anyone else has interest in the CL product. :) They're cheap enough > and important enough to FreeBSD's multimedia picture that I'd be just > happy to buy a couple of them as one. before i drive yet another nail into my own coffin .. on second thoughs i;ve removed the people from teh cc: line, i have enough enemies after my head, i dont need more nemies. this is good news on the hardware compaitabity front, if i ever get a dvd kit i will thank you all for your persaverance. now, on to my rant .... you guys (freebsd users, not yiu guys in particular) are all so heated up about getting another stinking dvd, super expensive bit of new tommorrow hardware .. all teh pretty bits that bloody minded equipemt makers cannot get out of teh way of thier feet fast enough to get into your greedy hands all for waht .. free software driver development. i cna relate to that, i;d do the sme thing if the saps were so keen to get a few bits of garbage hardware .. i;d go laughing all the way to the bank. BUT .. what of teh people who have been excluded freom using freebsd by dint of teh fact that freebsd dosent have suitable video 'driver' of teh textmode console to provide a character set that is readble by people with diminished visual capacity .. i'm not going to thoush the neurolological defeciets, but, its all part of the same deal. its not pretty to work on a bit of software that will be used by some ugly deforemed of body or slured and drooling mouthed person whost speach is so hard to follow most so called normal people turn away in disgust and writeoff the stinking carcase as a 'moron' with an "iq" in the minus region. because they cannot deal with the reality that not all people are picture perfect america adverisement postcrd cut out people, it ain't pretty and its not finaccilly rewarding. i know about a dozen people who would be chuffed to bits to be able to sue a computer to bea ble to talk to other people .. sure this group would hide behind teh anonimity we all do in email .. the www and email is a place where minds can meet and people can get to know people .. where the physical, teh repulsive viseral reality can be set aside and people can, people do talk to people on a more or less equal footing. a dvd player kit is probely no more expensive than a 21 inch sony or hitachi, well the sony definately .. hitachi are sill high quality enough to hold thier price. .. yes a few hitachi 21 inch monitors and possibly matrox's or stb velocituies . or some other card cable of being drive to 1600x1400x256. and a real programmer of two to help the visually imperared group to 'develop' a text mode driver that will enable teh std console in text mode to display characters that are about 10 times higer and some 8 times wider than currently available . so that not just us uglies can use your sanitarily cleansed politically corrected self defence mechanism .. older people who have retired can beomce once more usefull contributors, young people with severly dsyfunctionla viusl corext deveoplemnt can have an avenue to communiice, dsylexics could have a chance to lear to read and to write. we are sorry that all you poeple are just vultures hang around teh dvd give outs .. wasting so much talent on worthless development when so many cry out for just a little concideration. i won;t appologies for the harshness of my address, i an sick and tired of seeing souch gratious developemnt .. the hig end is so wonderfully supported, bu tthe devil take the hindmost if you are not like the hurd .. your only alternative is teh microsoft environment and teh vilification of the jerk element that is making it self disgustingly self evident even here in the sanity that once prevailed freebsd- mailinglists. i once ask a freind of mine about support for the disabled .. her responce sickened me .. she was so concerned abouyt the small number, the so little return on investment the strain on teh poor volunter developers working for so little return. i trikes me a a triffle ludicrust .. how many people are going to embrace dvd's. propbly far less than their are people who could use freensd if they could read the bloody screen .. who knows what sort of taleent is beiong driven awya by our disgusting obvious repulsion of teh real needs of real people. ok rant mode ended .. for this time take care the only difference between me, the use of teh disabl;ed world is the i got here before you did .. you will greo old, you will loose you rteeth, you will get incontinet, you will loose your sppech and sight you will beomce senile .. your wonderfull meidacl system cannot stop you from getting old. normally i spen some time rewriting my posts to remove the typos caused by my broken brian pros and the miss-seeings caused by using a 14 nch montit and type suze a lawyer would be proud to call 'the fine print'. regards jonathan for the spelling elitists .. you loose 35 percent of you brain and see how well you spell .. if yo can still wlak and talk and yse your hands that is. -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 22:57:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA15515 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:57:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA15495 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:57:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02010; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:57:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990125225728.A1891@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 22:57:28 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jason C. Wells" , "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 06:32:49AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 06:32:49AM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > >You know that the simple solution is to rename FreeBSD to Linux/BSD. This > > Uggh! This would probably actually work. The Borg solution. shutter! Assimilation is death. No thanks. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Jan 25 23:46:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA21905 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:46:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (st-lcremean.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA21897 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:46:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id CAA22058; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:46:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990126024619.A21739@tidalwave.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 02:46:19 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: Mike Smith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <19990126154354.A93469@freebie.lemis.com> <199901260526.VAA14434@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199901260526.VAA14434@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 09:26:24PM -0800 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 09:26:24PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > I picked this up in the PUPS (PDP UNIX Preservation Society) mailing > > list. Comments? > > Great. Another religious fanatic wielding the "I am BSD" banner. Just > the sort of PR we can do with. Not that it'd matter, really; read his page, this puppy only works on VAX hardware anyhow. I'd say a lot more people own PCs than own VAXen of any sort. He's not trying to be innovative (something CSRG was in spades) -- he could care less as long as his VAX runs 4.3BSD. --lee, who tends to back away slowly from anyone who calls a software project a Sacred Mission -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet)| | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 00:00:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA23587 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:00:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23581 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:00:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id AAA19053; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:00:35 -0800 (PST) To: jonathan michaels cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: DVDs [and MPEG decoder hardware] In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:46:36 +1100." <19990126174636.C21039@caamora.com.au> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 00:00:34 -0800 Message-ID: <19049.917337634@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > before i drive yet another nail into my own coffin .. Hmmmm. That posting was frankly bizarre and for the most part incoherent, nor do I see why it needed to be cross-posted to both -questions and -chat, so I've gone to -chat only on the follow-up. I think you have a rather bizarre idea of how people in this country view the handicapped, to say the least, not to mention a set of values so plainly skewed as to think that any semi-coherent screed is going to "improve" your perceived situation in any way at all. Quite the opposite, I'd say, and aside from perhaps being deliberately self-destructive for reasons known best to yourself, I can divine no constructive purpose whatsoever in what I just read. As to what is developed or who develops it in FreeBSD, that's entirely up to motivated self-interest and always has been. That's called "part of life" and its global constraints like this that you and I just have to live with, no matter how many limbs we were born with or without. You also don't get people interested in something by screaming in their ear, at least not in any family I've ever spent significant time with, you get it by somehow appealing to their self interest. This means that if it's some driver you want written, you find someone who has both the desire and the ability to write it and you do whatever you can to facilitate their progress - if that someone is yourself then all the better. If you don't know such a person then, by golly, you go out and you find one - maybe there's someone in a research center attached to the local hospital in search of a grant project, for example, or another group of developers working on aids for the handicapped who can be found with a web search. Any truly motivated person WILL FIND A WAY and get on with it whereas someone who's just indulging in a little public self-pity will simply whine about it like you just did. I worked with the blind and various other physically handicapped folks during my programming time at the Smith-Kettlewell institute of visual research, where we worked on various sight and communications aids, and I saw people overcome all manner of adversity with a degree of cheerfulness that would put half of this lists' Mother Theresa clones to shame. They never felt that anyone "owed" them an easier time of it, or that volunteer labor which made their lives easier in some way was anything but the purest of blessings, and helping such folks out was ALWAYS a pleasure. It made me feel good to work with them, and so I did. There's that enlightened self-interest again, you see how that works? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 01:10:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA01769 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:10:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sinbad.hq.cninfo.net ([202.100.219.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA01763 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:10:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hahalee@163.net) Received: by 163.net via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:10:54 +0800 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:10:54 +0800 From: Eric Lee To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Message-ID: <19990126171054.A1615@sinbad.hq.cninfo.net> References: <199901260526.VAA14434@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Matthew N. Dodd on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 01:24:04AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 01:24:04AM -0500, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > You know that the simple solution is to rename FreeBSD to Linux/BSD. This > way we are able to use the propaganda machine that has thrust Linux into > the spotlight and attract the mongol hordes. (At which point we will > sweep over the whole of China! Nothing will remain un-raped!) hey! there IS some chinese people listening to this list. why do you think about "rape" china? is it interesting? i'm unhappy with your words, and it's not funny. (a personal question: are you japanese?) > The only downside would be forcing ourselves to put that lethargic penguin > on the webpage. hehe, some poeple said that you can put the penguin on Chuck's fork..... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 07:03:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14904 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:03:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA14887 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:03:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id KAA04624; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:03:00 -0500 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:03:00 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Eric Lee cc: "Matthew N. Dodd" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) In-Reply-To: <19990126171054.A1615@sinbad.hq.cninfo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Eric Lee wrote: > On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 01:24:04AM -0500, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > > You know that the simple solution is to rename FreeBSD to Linux/BSD. This > > way we are able to use the propaganda machine that has thrust Linux into > > the spotlight and attract the mongol hordes. (At which point we will > > sweep over the whole of China! Nothing will remain un-raped!) > hey! there IS some chinese people listening to this list. > why do you think about "rape" china? is it interesting? > i'm unhappy with your words, and it's not funny. > (a personal question: are you japanese?) It was in reference to the mongol hordes that swept across china (and later europe) in the ~900 to ~1400 AD range. It was a joke, and I thought it was funny. Lighten up. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 08:10:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA24951 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:10:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA24946 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:10:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul2.u.washington.edu (root@saul2.u.washington.edu [140.142.56.21]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id IAA48328; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:10:34 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul2.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id IAA07873; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:10:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:09:55 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Eric Lee cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) In-Reply-To: <19990126171054.A1615@sinbad.hq.cninfo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Eric Lee wrote: > hey! there IS some chinese people listening to this list. > why do you think about "rape" china? is it interesting? > i'm unhappy with your words, and it's not funny. > (a personal question: are you japanese?) Is this meant to imply that Japanese people are rapists? There are some Japanese people listening to this list. Is it interesting? I'm unhappy with your words and you are not as clever as you thought in your retort. Be careful when trying to take the high moral ground. Someone might see up your skirt. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 09:03:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA01409 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:03:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sinbad.hq.cninfo.net ([202.100.219.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA01401 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:03:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hahalee@163.net) Received: by 163.net via sendmail from stdin id (Debian Smail3.2.0.102) for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:03:34 +0800 (CST) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 01:03:34 +0800 From: Eric Lee To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Message-ID: <19990127010334.A309@sinbad.hq.cninfo.net> References: <19990126171054.A1615@sinbad.hq.cninfo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 04:09:55PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 04:09:55PM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Is this meant to imply that Japanese people are rapists? There are some Oh no no, I didn't. Every nation has rapists, right? The word "rape" means "pillage" in Mr.Dodd's mail, I know this, and you? > Japanese people listening to this list. Is it interesting? I'm unhappy Of course there are. Mr. Dodd's domain name (jurai.net) sounds like that it's a Japanese net. so... sorry, it's my fault.(Mr.Dodd just mailed me and corrected me) I should check it out first before the message. > with your words and you are not as clever as you thought in your retort. Mogolians have ruled China for a long period (the Yuan Dynasty), so many Chinese people are definitely Mogolian's descent. It's the history. Most Chinese people really don't hate Mongolians, so do I. _Some_ Japanese people _once_ have done horrible bad things to Chinese people, It's also the truth. Today many Chinese still not happy to recall this, so do I. So the question is: If a Japanese people used the stinging words like "sweep", "rape" with "China", How could you expect that I'll keep silent? Maybe I'm a little too drastic, but I'm right at this point. (Mr.Dodd is not Japanese, it's OK.) > Be careful when trying to take the high moral ground. Someone might see up > your skirt. This time you're wrong and I'll shut up. (can we stop here? we have many useful things to do...) sorry for wasting your time, and bandwidth. Regards. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 09:52:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA06615 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:52:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA06602 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:52:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA04217; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:52:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990125233846.0451bc20@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 23:41:04 -0700 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" , Mike Smith From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Cc: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: References: <199901260526.VAA14434@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:24 AM 1/26/99 -0500, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >You know that the simple solution is to rename FreeBSD to Linux/BSD. This >way we are able to use the propaganda machine that has thrust Linux into >the spotlight and attract the mongol hordes. Maybe we can call FreeBSD "Binux;" the Berkeley successor to Linux. I can't believe the hype Linux is getting, though. It's being touted as a cure for warts, wrinkles, and hangnails. >The only downside would be forcing ourselves to put that lethargic penguin >on the webpage. How about using a chicken instead? Maybe a rubber chicken. >April approaches. I see great need. Of material? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 10:37:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12993 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:37:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12987 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:37:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA29451; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:36:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:36:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass cc: Mike Smith , Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990125233846.0451bc20@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >April approaches. I see great need. > > Of material? No, for an April 1st release of Linux/BSD. The frightening part is that it would probably work if we made sure binary RPMs worked out of the box. I'd be inclined to say that Debian binary packages would be useful as well. Setting up a Linux crosscompile environment would complete the coup. Anyhow, I probably shouldn't be encouraging this as someone is far too likely to do it. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 11:33:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA19012 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:33:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA19000 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:33:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.45]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA43A8; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:32:50 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990126024619.A21739@tidalwave.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:41:22 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: lcremean@tidalwave.net Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jan-99 Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 09:26:24PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: >> Great. Another religious fanatic wielding the "I am BSD" banner. Just >> the sort of PR we can do with. > > Not that it'd matter, really; read his page, this puppy only works on VAX > hardware anyhow. I'd say a lot more people own PCs than own VAXen of any > sort. He's not trying to be innovative (something CSRG was in spades) -- > he could care less as long as his VAX runs 4.3BSD. Sorry, but after reading this page I merely had to name the poor guy a sucker, because FreeBSD, NetBSD & OpenBSD have been advancing the BSD banner for quite some time now, and Mr. I-Am-BSD-Incarnate is going to use 4.3-RENO to start a new BSD? *sigh* Talk about reinventing the wheel, which also applied to his resurection of SCCS. He'd be better off helping Open or Net to expand more of their platform support or FreeBSD... Just my 0.02 Euro --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 12:18:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24118 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:18:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ska.bsn (d172.syd2.zeta.org.au [203.26.9.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24097 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:18:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01490; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:24:59 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from atrn) Message-ID: <19990127072459.B1291@ska.bsn> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 07:24:59 +1100 From: Andy Newman To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) References: <199901260526.VAA14434@dingo.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990125233846.0451bc20@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990125233846.0451bc20@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:41:04PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I can't believe the hype Linux is getting, though. It's being touted > as a cure for warts, wrinkles, and hangnails. The thing that pisses me off is they think they invented it all (Unix). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 12:30:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA25705 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:30:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA25695 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:30:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA12015; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:30:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:30:22 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Glass Cc: Chat Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Message-ID: <19990126123022.B11697@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <199901260526.VAA14434@dingo.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990125233846.0451bc20@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990125233846.0451bc20@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:41:04PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 11:41:04PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > I can't believe the hype Linux is getting, though. It's being touted > as a cure for warts, wrinkles, and hangnails. Well, compared to the product it's replacing, it just might be one of those miracle cures. People see that it's available and rush out to get it, never checking around to see if there is a different or better "miracle cure". Compared to Windows, just about anything is a miracle. cure. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter My reality check just bounced. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 12:49:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27753 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:49:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27746 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:49:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA19107; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:48:42 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:48:41 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: jonathan michaels cc: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France In-Reply-To: <19990121110151.C7737@caamora.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, jonathan michaels wrote: > On Wed, Jan 20, 1999 at 11:23:01PM +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > According to jonathan michaels: > > > on teh web .. i've just seen people say how bad it is .. could you explain > > > what the wassenaar arrangement is and how it would be bad, please > > > > The main thing is that export for commercial usage/products is restricted > > to the same level as in the USA (i.e. RC2/40, RC5/40 and so forth). DES may > > be at 56 bits (not sure here). > > > > What is really delicious is that free software is not restricted apparently. > > yes, this is teh bit i fond most interesting, all sorts of places are poping > up and saying you cant do 'commercial' 'strong encryption', but you can give > it away, as in freeware .. japan is teh most recent one, i;ve notices and only > as part of teh ip6 thingies in the KAME project. > > interesting to see what happens next .. grin sortta > > regards > > jonathan > Uhhh... 1) Wassennaar is an international agreement. Has anyone really ratified it? 2) Ratifing it means that the states agree to some time in the future have limits on the export of crypto software And that's all. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > -- > =============================================================================== > Jonathan Michaels > PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia > =========================================================== > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 12:57:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA29096 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:57:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA29085 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:57:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA19169; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:56:34 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:56:34 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Terry Lambert cc: andrsn@andrsn.stanford.edu, brett@lariat.org, jon@caamora.com.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Change in crypto policy in France In-Reply-To: <199901211900.MAA22124@usr06.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 21 Jan 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > Three points to add to this little chat... > > (1) The US is not bound by any treaties until they are ratified > by congress; many treaties are signed, but never ratified > (e.g. "the moon treaty" outlawing deployment of orbital > nuclear weapons, weapons platforms, and EMP devices). > You mean there are places with parliament that this is not true? > (2) No one willing to blow up the world trade center would > ever risk the penalties for exporting cryptography; neither > would foreign powers hostile to US interests (yeah, right). > No foreign nation or governemt would have the resources to develop secure crypto. Take for example IDEA... 8-) > (3) Technically, use of evidence obtained via wiretapping may > be a violation of the 5th ammendment to the US constitution, > which acknowledges the right to avoid self incrimination. In > combination with the Miranda ruling, this means that any > surreptiously obtained evidence can not be used for criminal > prosecution. Test cases which would determine the legality > of wiretapping evidence at the apellate level have a habit of > being dropped before they can become binding case law. > > On the other hand, privacy is not explicitly guaranteed, only > the ability to be secure in your person and property without > due process (color me a constitutional constructionist, but > Hoover and Ness tended to overstep a lot of bounds as a means > to an end). > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 13:07:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00182 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:07:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (host-e186.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00174 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:07:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id QAA24479; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:06:55 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990126160654.A24171@tidalwave.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:06:54 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , lcremean@tidalwave.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <19990126024619.A21739@tidalwave.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 08:41:22PM +0100 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 08:41:22PM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 26-Jan-99 Lee Cremeans wrote: > > On Mon, Jan 25, 1999 at 09:26:24PM -0800, Mike Smith wrote: > > >> Great. Another religious fanatic wielding the "I am BSD" banner. Just > >> the sort of PR we can do with. > > > > Not that it'd matter, really; read his page, this puppy only works on VAX > > hardware anyhow. I'd say a lot more people own PCs than own VAXen of any > > sort. He's not trying to be innovative (something CSRG was in spades) -- > > he could care less as long as his VAX runs 4.3BSD. > > Sorry, but after reading this page I merely had to name the poor guy a > sucker, because FreeBSD, NetBSD & OpenBSD have been advancing the BSD > banner for quite some time now, and Mr. I-Am-BSD-Incarnate is going to use > 4.3-RENO to start a new BSD? *sigh* Talk about reinventing the wheel, which > also applied to his resurection of SCCS. My thoughts exactly; the point I was trying to make above is that his idea is so fanatical that few people, if anyone at all, will even bother listening. Like I said, he just wants to live in the past and be nostalgic, not actually do anything for the common good. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet)| | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 13:18:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA01568 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:18:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01562 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:18:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.45]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA4838; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:18:12 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990126160654.A24171@tidalwave.net> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:26:45 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: lcremean@tidalwave.net Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 26-Jan-99 Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 08:41:22PM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> Sorry, but after reading this page I merely had to name the poor guy a >> sucker, because FreeBSD, NetBSD & OpenBSD have been advancing the BSD >> banner for quite some time now, and Mr. I-Am-BSD-Incarnate is going to >> use 4.3-RENO to start a new BSD? *sigh* Talk about reinventing the wheel, >> which also applied to his resurection of SCCS. > > My thoughts exactly; the point I was trying to make above is that his > idea is so fanatical that few people, if anyone at all, will even bother > listening. Like I said, he just wants to live in the past and be > nostalgic, not actually do anything for the common good. Couldn't agree more with ye Lee... Thank god a lot of people see this error and will support the three BSD's... Btw, is it me, or is his project name a weird, meaningless word? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 14:01:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA06873 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:01:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA06848; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:01:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA15068; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:03:50 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:03:50 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Steve Glass cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When did FreeBSD begin supporting the 4.4 BSD network kernel? In-Reply-To: <36AE1D0A.4D6BE73C@ntc.nokia.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to -chat from -questions: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Steve Glass wrote: > That about sums it up (email needs a tag in the subject for "that's > all, folks")... I've seen people use [nt] or *nt* for "no [additional] text". Then again, it's an ugly looking combination of letters. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 14:23:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA09843 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from axl01it.ntc.nokia.com (axl01it.ntc.nokia.com [131.228.118.232]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA09831 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:23:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sglass@NASBPD01BS.ntc.nokia.com) Received: from miller.americas.nokia.com (miller.americas.nokia.com [172.18.180.20]) by axl01it.ntc.nokia.com (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id AAA10275; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:22:25 +0200 (EET) Received: from rhino.ntc.nokia.com (rhino.americas.nokia.com [172.18.180.45]) by miller.americas.nokia.com (8.8.6 (PHNE_14041)/8.8.6) with ESMTP id RAA08057; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:23:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from Microsoft Mail (PU Serial #1991) by rhino.ntc.nokia.com (PostalUnion/SMTP(tm) v2.1.9c for Windows NT(tm)) id AA-1999Jan26.172011.1991.451658; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:20:56 -0500 From: sglass@NASBPD01BS.ntc.nokia.com (Glass Steve NTC/Boston) To: jooji@webnology.com (Jasper O'Malley) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) Message-ID: <1999Jan26.172011.1991.451658@rhino.ntc.nokia.com> X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail via PostalUnion/SMTP for Windows NT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Organization: Nokia Telecommunications Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:20:56 -0500 Subject: Re: When did FreeBSD begin supporting th Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by hub.freebsd.org id OAA09839 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, UG-ly (and disgustingly relavent to me here at work). I tried to get most of the people I communicate regularly with to use (subject Is content), but it has latin "complications". It isn't too far of a stretch for me, but it seems to be for others. Maybe I'll try to go with (yes, "that's all folks")... Cheers, Steve ---------- From: Jasper O'Malley To: Steve Glass Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: When did FreeBSD begin supporting the 4.4 BSD network kernel? Date: Tuesday, 26 January, 1999 04:03PM Moved to -chat from -questions: On Tue, 26 Jan 1999, Steve Glass wrote: > That about sums it up (email needs a tag in the subject for "that's > all, folks")... I've seen people use [nt] or *nt* for "no [additional] text". Then again, it's an ugly looking combination of letters. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 16:06:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23603 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:06:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23597 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:06:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA01073; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:06:19 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990126180618.I16540@futuresouth.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:06:18 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Andy Newman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) References: <199901260526.VAA14434@dingo.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990125233846.0451bc20@mail.lariat.org> <19990127072459.B1291@ska.bsn> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990127072459.B1291@ska.bsn>; from Andy Newman on Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 07:24:59AM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 07:24:59AM +1100, a little birdie told me that Andy Newman remarked > > I can't believe the hype Linux is getting, though. It's being touted > > as a cure for warts, wrinkles, and hangnails. > > The thing that pisses me off is they think they invented it all (Unix). Gaah... you're not kidding. And it's fanned out so far. I can't count the number of times I've (patiently, calmly) said the words, 'No, Unix is not like Linux, Linux is like Unix', and had to explain what I mean... Then hear 'Yeah, but Unix was never popular like Linux is...' *whap*whap*whap*whap*whap* PERSPECTIVE, PEOPLE!!! --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 16:10:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23958 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:10:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA23941 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:10:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA09732; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:40:15 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id KAA97723; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:40:15 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:40:15 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Andy Newman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Message-ID: <19990127104014.R66239@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901260526.VAA14434@dingo.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990125233846.0451bc20@mail.lariat.org> <19990127072459.B1291@ska.bsn> <19990126180618.I16540@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990126180618.I16540@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 06:06:18PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 26 January 1999 at 18:06:18 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 07:24:59AM +1100, a little birdie told me > that Andy Newman remarked >>> I can't believe the hype Linux is getting, though. It's being touted >>> as a cure for warts, wrinkles, and hangnails. >> >> The thing that pisses me off is they think they invented it all (Unix). > > Gaah... you're not kidding. > And it's fanned out so far. > I can't count the number of times I've (patiently, calmly) said the > words, 'No, Unix is not like Linux, Linux is like Unix', and had to > explain what I mean... > Then hear 'Yeah, but Unix was never popular like Linux is...' Well, that's right. Think about it in terms of number of users. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 16:22:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA25574 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:22:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA25567 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:22:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA01842; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:22:02 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990126182202.J16540@futuresouth.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:22:02 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Greg Lehey Cc: Andy Newman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) References: <199901260526.VAA14434@dingo.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990125233846.0451bc20@mail.lariat.org> <19990127072459.B1291@ska.bsn> <19990126180618.I16540@futuresouth.com> <19990127104014.R66239@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990127104014.R66239@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 10:40:15AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 10:40:15AM +1030, a little birdie told me that Greg Lehey remarked > On Tuesday, 26 January 1999 at 18:06:18 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 07:24:59AM +1100, a little birdie told me > > that Andy Newman remarked > >>> I can't believe the hype Linux is getting, though. It's being touted > >>> as a cure for warts, wrinkles, and hangnails. > >> > >> The thing that pisses me off is they think they invented it all (Unix). > > > > Gaah... you're not kidding. > > And it's fanned out so far. > > I can't count the number of times I've (patiently, calmly) said the > > words, 'No, Unix is not like Linux, Linux is like Unix', and had to > > explain what I mean... > > Then hear 'Yeah, but Unix was never popular like Linux is...' > > Well, that's right. Think about it in terms of number of users. No, you can't compare like that... that's like saying that... hm, I dunno if I can pull any contemporary analogies here... You have to measure it by relative market share. Raw numbers are fairly meaningless. And I don't think Linux by itself has the market share that Unix as a whole (heck, I'll even include AIX in that category ;) has enjoyed through much of its history... --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 16:30:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA26345 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:30:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA26339 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:30:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rainking@shell.futuresouth.com) Received: from localhost (rainking@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with SMTP id SAA02251; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:30:18 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:30:18 -0600 (CST) From: Owen Barnett To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: Greg Lehey , Andy Newman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) In-Reply-To: <19990126182202.J16540@futuresouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Then hear 'Yeah, but Unix was never popular like Linux is...' > > > > Well, that's right. Think about it in terms of number of users. > Number of users in the OS market seems to be a regressive indicator of efficiency and power... (windows) Owen Barnett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 19:25:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15542 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:25:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15537 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:25:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id EAA07636; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 04:25:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: sglass@NASBPD01BS.ntc.nokia.com (Glass Steve NTC/Boston) Cc: jooji@webnology.com (Jasper O'Malley), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG (freebsd-chat) Subject: Re: When did FreeBSD begin supporting th References: <1999Jan26.172011.1991.451658@rhino.ntc.nokia.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 27 Jan 1999 04:25:02 +0100 In-Reply-To: sglass@NASBPD01BS.ntc.nokia.com's message of "Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:20:56 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org sglass@NASBPD01BS.ntc.nokia.com (Glass Steve NTC/Boston) writes: > Yes, UG-ly (and disgustingly relavent to me here at work). I > tried to get most of the people I communicate regularly with to > use (subject Is content), but it has latin > "complications". It isn't too far of a stretch for me, but it > seems to be for others. Maybe I'll try to go with (yes, > "that's all folks")... What's wrong with just putting "SSIA" (Subject Says It All) in the body, like everyone else does? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Jan 26 19:26:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15604 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:26:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA15591 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 19:26:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4004.ime.net [209.90.195.14]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id WAA91141 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:26:18 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990126221947.00c4eee0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:26:18 -0500 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Make World Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I tell ya, the last few Make worlds have been pretty messy.. This time around I was missing libs or something, errors immediately. Well, 'ta hell with it' I said. I nuked /usr/obj/* and tried again. Well gee Droo, that was dumb. Finally started to go through the source folders individually. After manually make/make install to several of the libs, it seems like I've finally got a handle. I have yet to figure out if I have a full ELF or not. It says in my ./compile/ONEEX/Makefile that KERNFORMAT=elf. ldconfig defaults to elf. and /etc/make.conf says OBJFORMAT=elf. Anyone have similar problems? I tried to build /boot as well so I could build the loader. Well, got to the loader. Errors. Maybe after my latest make world some of these problems will be soluted. I started out as a 3.0-SNAP, then just kept synchronizing. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 05:21:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA14278 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:21:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from animaniacs.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA14273 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 05:21:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by animaniacs.itribe.net (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id IAA05656; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:20:54 -0500 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:20:54 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Greg Lehey cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Andy Newman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) In-Reply-To: <19990127104014.R66239@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 26 January 1999 at 18:06:18 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > On Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 07:24:59AM +1100, a little birdie told me > > that Andy Newman remarked > >>> I can't believe the hype Linux is getting, though. It's being touted > >>> as a cure for warts, wrinkles, and hangnails. > >> > >> The thing that pisses me off is they think they invented it all (Unix). > > > > Gaah... you're not kidding. > > And it's fanned out so far. > > I can't count the number of times I've (patiently, calmly) said the > > words, 'No, Unix is not like Linux, Linux is like Unix', and had to > > explain what I mean... > > Then hear 'Yeah, but Unix was never popular like Linux is...' > > Well, that's right. Think about it in terms of number of users. So, SunOS is king then? Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 06:31:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA20978 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:31:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA20967 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:31:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.nws.net) Received: from pechter.nws.net (bg-tc-ppp44.monmouth.com [209.191.60.45]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA21266; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:30:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.nws.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) id JAA04808; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:29:15 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199901271429.JAA04808@pechter.nws.net> Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) To: jamie@itribe.net (Jamie Bowden) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:29:14 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from Jamie Bowden at "Jan 27, 99 08:20:54 am" Reply-to: pechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > On Tuesday, 26 January 1999 at 18:06:18 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > > explain what I mean... > > > Then hear 'Yeah, but Unix was never popular like Linux is...' > > > > Well, that's right. Think about it in terms of number of users. > > So, SunOS is king then? > > Jamie Bowden Actually, there's probably more SCO out there. Think of McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Hotel Reservation systems... SunOS and AIX and HPUX are also up there... Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 08:22:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04667 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:22:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04659 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:22:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id RAA22630; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 17:22:29 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com Cc: jamie@itribe.net (Jamie Bowden), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) References: <199901271429.JAA04808@pechter.nws.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 27 Jan 1999 17:22:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: Bill Pechter's message of "Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:29:14 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bill Pechter writes: > > So, SunOS is king then? > Actually, there's probably more SCO out there. Think of > McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Hotel Reservation systems... Do not underestimate OS/2... A lot of ATMs, POS systems, airport information systems etc. run OS/2. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 08:58:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA09523 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:58:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09515 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 08:58:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.48]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA10988 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:00:52 +0500 Message-ID: <36AF4361.DC99F730@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:48:34 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Fwd: Famous Quotes Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Do we have these in fortune() ? FAMOUS QUOTES: > Question: If you could live forever, would you and why? > > Answer: I would not live forever, because we should not live forever, > because if we were supposed to live forever, then we would live forever, > but we cannot live forever, which is why I would not live forever. > -Miss Alabama in the 1994 Miss Universe contest > > > Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in > the country. > -Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC > > > I've never had major knee surgery on any other part of my body. > -Winston Bennett, University of Kentucky basketball forward > > > Whenever I watch TV and see those poor starving kids all over the world, I > can't help but cry. I mean I'd love to be skinny like that but not with > all those flies and death and stuff. > -Mariah Carey, pop singer > > > I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers. We are the > president. > -Hillary Clinton commenting on the release of subpoenaed documents > > > The police are not here to create disorder. They're here to preserve > disorder." > -Former Chicago mayor Daley during the infamous 1968 Democratic Party > convention > > > China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese. > -Former French President Charles de Gaulle > > > I haven't committed a crime. What I did was fail to comply with the law. > -David Dinkins, New York City Mayor, answering accusations that he failed > to pay his taxes. > > > The Internet is a great way to get on the Net. > -Republican presidential candidate Bob Dole > > > Things are more like they are now than they ever were before. > -Former U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower > > > Traditionally, most of Australia's imports come from overseas. > -Former Australian cabinet minister Keppel Enderbery > > > We're going to turn this team around 360 degrees. > -Jason Kidd, upon his drafting to the Dallas Mavericks > > > Researchers have discovered that chocolate produces some of the same > reactions in the brain as marijuana.... The researchers also discovered > other similarities between the two, but can't remember what they are. > -Matt Lauer on NBC's Today show, August 22 > > > It's like an Alcatraz around my neck." > -Boston mayor Menino on the shortage of city parking spaces > > > Half this game is ninety percent mental. > -Philadelphia Phillies manager Danny Ozark > > > They're multi-purpose. Not only do they put the clips on, but they take > them off. > -Pratt & Whitney spokesperson explaining why the company charged the Air > Force nearly $1,000 for an ordinary pair of pliers > > > It is wonderful to be here in the great state of Chicago. > -Former U.S. Vice-President Dan Quayle > > > I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I have was > that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could converse with those > people. > -Former U.S. Vice-President Dan Quayle > > > It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in > our air and water that are doing it. > Former U.S. Vice-President Dan Quayle > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 09:21:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12374 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:21:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12353 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:21:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.nws.net) Received: from pechter.nws.net (bg-tc-ppp44.monmouth.com [209.191.60.45]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA15027; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:21:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.nws.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) id MAA05121; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:19:35 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199901271719.MAA05121@pechter.nws.net> Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:19:34 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from Dag-Erling Smorgrav at "Jan 27, 99 05:22:28 pm" Reply-to: pechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Bill Pechter writes: > > > So, SunOS is king then? > > Actually, there's probably more SCO out there. Think of > > McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Hotel Reservation systems... > > Do not underestimate OS/2... A lot of ATMs, POS systems, airport > information systems etc. run OS/2. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > Yup, so do I 8-) I got to like it in my short time at IBM. It's got a pretty solid IP stack, networks well, runs NFS and can fit nicely into a network of IP and NETBIOS. The new version (which I hope will be in client as well as in server) has the AIX journaling file system and logical volume manager. Put Win95 application support as well and it'd be my work desktop instead of switching between Unix and Win95. (I'd even purchase it for work use. They've mandated Win95 or NT -- and with a Pentium Overdrive on a 486 chassis NT's not an option and 95's networking flakes out.) It's my second favorite OS behind FreeBSD. (It just recently displaced VAX/VMS in my heart. FreeBSD pushed that one out about a year ago. I just got a Vax and I'm waiting for the OpenVMS cd to arrive.) Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 10:38:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA21671 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:38:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA21656 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:38:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA31862; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:40:39 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:40:38 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fwd: Famous Quotes In-Reply-To: <36AF4361.DC99F730@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Do we have these in fortune() ? FYI, the fortune data files are in /usr/share/games/fortune. That being said... > Things are more like they are now than they ever were before. > -Former U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower This is the only one currently in the fortune data files. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 11:05:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA25418 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:05:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp.interlog.com (smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA25347 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 11:05:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA22795 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:05:01 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:06:59 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Griffith To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Readers praise BSD, other January articles (from the SunWorld editors) (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paul Griffith <> paulg@interlog.com ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 09:28:18 EST From: SunWorld Editor-in-Chief To: paulg@interlog.com Subject: Readers praise BSD, other January articles (from the SunWorld editors) snip READER FEEDBACK We've received a lot of mail this month. Here's what our readers had to say about some of the more popular January features and columns: THE RETURN OF BSD by Greg Lehey "Nice overview article, refreshingly free of the advocacy seen all too often on the Web and Usenet. Keep up the good work!" "An excellent, educative, and wonderful article for any system administrator who wants to start building his own site. Very insightful." "Very nice technical sniplet, Greg. Definitely worth reading for some interesting insights into just how BSD's development has come about." http://www.sunworld.com/swol-01-1999/swol-01-bsd.html?0126a /snip To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 15:00:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA26097 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:00:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA26086 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:00:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA15540; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:30:42 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id JAA03899; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:30:41 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:30:41 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: pechter@shell.monmouth.com, Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Message-ID: <19990128093041.A66239@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199901271429.JAA04808@pechter.nws.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 05:22:28PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 27 January 1999 at 17:22:28 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Bill Pechter writes: >>> So, SunOS is king then? >> Actually, there's probably more SCO out there. Think of >> McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Hotel Reservation systems... > > Do not underestimate OS/2... A lot of ATMs, POS systems, airport > information systems etc. run OS/2. Agreed. So OS/2 is the most popular form of UNIX? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 15:15:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA28008 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:15:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA28002 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:15:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id AAA24017; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:15:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , pechter@shell.monmouth.com, Jamie Bowden , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) References: <199901271429.JAA04808@pechter.nws.net> <19990128093041.A66239@freebie.lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 28 Jan 1999 00:15:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:30:41 +1030" Message-ID: Lines: 18 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Wednesday, 27 January 1999 at 17:22:28 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Bill Pechter writes: > >>> So, SunOS is king then? > >> Actually, there's probably more SCO out there. Think of > >> McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Hotel Reservation systems... > > Do not underestimate OS/2... A lot of ATMs, POS systems, airport > > information systems etc. run OS/2. > Agreed. So OS/2 is the most popular form of UNIX? No. I believe we were talking of operating systems in general, not of Unix in particular. (and for what it's worth, OS/2 has a lot of Unix code in it...) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 18:06:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18321 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:06:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA18309 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:06:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA27447; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:10:13 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990128131012.A27400@caamora.com.au> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:10:12 +1100 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A successor to CSRG (was: 4.4BSD) Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199901271429.JAA04808@pechter.nws.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 05:22:28PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 05:22:28PM +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Bill Pechter writes: > > > So, SunOS is king then? > > Actually, there's probably more SCO out there. Think of > > McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Hotel Reservation systems... > > Do not underestimate OS/2... A lot of ATMs, POS systems, airport > information systems etc. run OS/2. from memory, in teh early days .. ther was a motorola 68b09e in every cd player and it ran os9 to read teh cd filesystem and to do teh io .. that is to play teh music .. so if head counts equate to supremacy then os9 would be close to teh top and qnx runtime must be a close second. there are far more 'hidden' processors running realtime systems (os9, lynx, qnx, even rtos etc etc) than thier will ever be paople sitting infront of keyboards bashing out the works of shakspear (spelling?) another point ov view .. music cd players, video recorders et al are computers running operating systems with higly customised keyboards -- command input consoles. regards jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 21:52:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA17650 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:52:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA17632 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:52:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA23249; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:22:49 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id QAA06850; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:22:47 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:22:46 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: Yana Lehey Subject: Back to school Message-ID: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My daughter has just gone back to school after the summer break. She brought back a sheet of paper today with various hints on how to use their Microsoft system. One thing I found particularly interesting: * Deleting a file is simple. Right click on the Start button and choose Explore. * Scroll down to the Network Neighbourhood. Navigate your way to the folder as before. * Move the mouse on to the file you want to change and right click. You can now delete or rename the file. Is there something wrong with me to think that this is more complicated than `rm file'? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 22:10:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19949 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:10:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19944 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:10:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.231]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA945; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:10:55 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 07:19:30 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Greg Lehey Subject: RE: Back to school Cc: Yana Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 28-Jan-99 Greg Lehey wrote: > Is there something wrong with me to think that this is more > complicated than `rm file'? Depends, I was taught and learned Commodore-64 systems at school and home. I also used the MSX, Spectrum Z-80 and some others like the Amiga later on. I never knew that a GUI existed and I loved command lines. Nowadays most of the new generation only know GUI's and may find their use way easier than remember those archaic command line instructions. And they don't teach DOS anymore, which might be a slight benefit as it will make explaining some theories that make 'nix tick more easier (I had a hard time at first to understand why putting . in yer PATH is a Bad Thing(tm)) I foresee golden periods in which the true learned ones (e.g. the people that make IP tick, like the Unix and Unix clone folks) leading the less knowledgeable ones. Then again, I can also be dead wrong ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 22:11:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19983 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:11:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (host-e186.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19977 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:11:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id BAA30310; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:10:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990128011051.B30224@tidalwave.net> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:10:51 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Back to school Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 04:22:46PM +1030 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT X-Evil: microsoft.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 04:22:46PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > My daughter has just gone back to school after the summer break. She > brought back a sheet of paper today with various hints on how to use > their Microsoft system. One thing I found particularly interesting: > > * Deleting a file is simple. Right click on the Start button and > choose Explore. > > * Scroll down to the Network Neighbourhood. Navigate your way to > the folder as before. > > * Move the mouse on to the file you want to change and right click. > You can now delete or rename the file. > > Is there something wrong with me to think that this is more > complicated than `rm file'? Not at all. :) (That's the problem with teaching a GUI environment...they say that a picture is worth a thousand words, and this proves that statement well, in spirit if not in letter...) -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet)| | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 22:12:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20046 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:12:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20035 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:12:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA29132; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:11:30 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990128171124.48589@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:11:24 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Yana Lehey Subject: Re: Back to school References: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 04:22:46PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 04:22:46PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > My daughter has just gone back to school after the summer break. She > brought back a sheet of paper today with various hints on how to use > their Microsoft system. One thing I found particularly interesting: > > * Deleting a file is simple. Right click on the Start button and > choose Explore. > > * Scroll down to the Network Neighbourhood. Navigate your way to > the folder as before. > > * Move the mouse on to the file you want to change and right click. > You can now delete or rename the file. > > Is there something wrong with me to think that this is more > complicated than `rm file'? I don't know. You decide :-) * Deleting a file is simple. Left click on the root window and choose xterm. * Give that xterm the focus (either by moving the mouse over it or left clicking on it) and type 'locate filename'. * If that doesn't work you might need to create your locate database. One way is to su to root and run /etc/weekly. Otherwise, study the man page for locate. * When you have discovered the full path of the file, type 'rm path/filename'. * If there are no problems with permissions, the command should succeed, in which case you will see no acknowledgement. If you need to change the permissions, type 'man chmod' and study for a while. If you need to change the owner, the command to study is chown but you'll need to su before you can use it. * When you have deleted the file, close iconise or leave the xterm, right click on the root window, and select the program you are working with. * If you are not using fvwm2 with Sue's fvwm2rc of December 1998, the above instructions will need to be modified. Consult your window manager's man page to learn how to read its config file, to find out how menus, etc, if they exist, can be activated. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 22:27:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA21581 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:27:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21563 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:27:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA23445; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:57:47 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id QAA07248; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:57:45 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:57:45 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Yana Lehey Subject: Re: Back to school Message-ID: <19990128165745.B4819@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com> <19990128171124.48589@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990128171124.48589@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 05:11:24PM +1100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 28 January 1999 at 17:11:24 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > On Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 04:22:46PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> My daughter has just gone back to school after the summer break. She >> brought back a sheet of paper today with various hints on how to use >> their Microsoft system. One thing I found particularly interesting: >> >> * Deleting a file is simple. Right click on the Start button and >> choose Explore. >> >> * Scroll down to the Network Neighbourhood. Navigate your way to >> the folder as before. >> >> * Move the mouse on to the file you want to change and right click. >> You can now delete or rename the file. >> >> Is there something wrong with me to think that this is more >> complicated than `rm file'? > > I don't know. You decide :-) > > * Deleting a file is simple. Left click on the root window and > choose xterm. You should have one open if you're using the machine. > * Give that xterm the focus (either by moving the mouse over it > or left clicking on it) and type 'locate filename'. This is a more detailled level than that of the original. And if you want to delete a file, you don't need to use locate. With the method described in the info sheet, you have no choice. > * If that doesn't work you might need to create your locate > database. One way is to su to root and run /etc/weekly. > Otherwise, study the man page for locate. Again, not needed. Anyway, this is a system administration task which the students aren't allowed to perform. > * When you have discovered the full path of the file, > type 'rm path/filename'. Right. You need to do this. > * If there are no problems with permissions, the command should > succeed, in which case you will see no acknowledgement. > If you need to change the permissions, type 'man chmod' and > study for a while. If you need to change the owner, the command > to study is chown but you'll need to su before you can use it. Not handled in the original sheet. I hope so, anyway: what happens if one student wants to delete somebody else's files? > * When you have deleted the file, close iconise or leave the xterm, > right click on the root window, and select the program you are > working with. No, leave it open. You're not using X correctly. > * If you are not using fvwm2 with Sue's fvwm2rc of December 1998, > the above instructions will need to be modified. Consult your > window manager's man page to learn how to read its config file, to > find out how menus, etc, if they exist, can be activated. Again, outside the scope of the discussion. I can see you're trying to be the devil's advocate here, but it doesn't really fit. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 22:40:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23015 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:40:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23005 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:40:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id RAA29232; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:40:18 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990128174013.37143@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 17:40:13 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Yana Lehey Subject: Re: Back to school References: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com> <19990128171124.48589@welearn.com.au> <19990128165745.B4819@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990128165745.B4819@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 04:57:45PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 04:57:45PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 28 January 1999 at 17:11:24 +1100, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 04:22:46PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> > >> Is there something wrong with me to think that this is more > >> complicated than `rm file'? > > > > I don't know. You decide :-) > > > > * Deleting a file is simple. Left click on the root window and > > choose xterm. > > You should have one open if you're using the machine. Not necessarily. Depends how it's set up and used. > This is a more detailled level than that of the original. Quite so. And your 'rm file' was a different level again. If you want a realistic comparison, the school example could be expressed at the level that you used, by saying: Click on the filename and press the Delete key. > I can see you're trying to be the devil's advocate here, Of course :-) > but it doesn't really fit. Oh, but it does, it does. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 22:45:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23437 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:45:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailbox.ttc.co.jp (ns.ttc.co.jp [210.160.64.114]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23420 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 22:44:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from yasushi@ttc.co.jp) Received: from shisa.ttc.co.jp (shisa.ttc.co.jp [210.160.64.115]) by mailbox.ttc.co.jp (8.8.8+2.7Wbeta7/3.6W) with ESMTP id PAA23516 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:44:51 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199901280644.AA00397@Think.ttc.co.jp> From: Yasushi Taira Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 15:44:04 +0900 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: AL-Mail32 Version 1.10 beta7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org subscribe freebsd-chat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 23:16:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28181 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:16:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Access.ETSU.Edu ([151.141.99.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28176 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:16:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from higginsj@iname.com) Received: from pt51.bnoc.net ([208.25.249.146]) by Access.ETSU.Edu (PMDF V5.2-29 #30676) with ESMTP id <01J7235PP0OM8ZES6Q@Access.ETSU.Edu> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:16:40 EST Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:19:06 -0500 (EST) From: James Subject: RE: Back to school In-reply-to: X-Sender: higginsj@radiosity.org To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Greg Lehey , Yana Lehey , FreeBSD Chat Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > I foresee golden periods in which the true learned ones (e.g. the people > that make IP tick, like the Unix and Unix clone folks) leading the less > knowledgeable ones. They are well on the way. I recently started a new semester as a senior in a computer science cirricula. I am taking "Intro to Data Communications" which is a 4400 level course at my school and populated with students most would assume to be reasonably knowledgeable although a bit green around the edges. As soon as it was announced that UNIX is the preferred platform for assignments a student announced, "Why can't we use NT?!?!". He also seemed upset that he would *GASP* have to edit text files for system configuration. Not to mention that in the sophomore "File Processing" course all students seem to gripe after being drug away from learning C/C++ in Windows to writing for a UNIX machine. James Higgins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Jan 27 23:41:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA01876 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:41:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA01869 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 23:41:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA23814; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:11:01 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id SAA08591; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:10:59 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 18:10:59 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Nate Williams Cc: Archie Cobbs , Garrett Wollman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: -Wall (was: btokup() macro in sys/malloc.h) Message-ID: <19990128181059.C8473@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901280540.WAA26288@mt.sri.com>; from Nate Williams on Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 10:40:16PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Wednesday, 27 January 1999 at 22:40:16 -0700, Nate Williams wrote: >> Anyway, if we're going to -Wall'ify the kernel (as we should) >> then we need to update sytle(9) to reflect that. >> >> In fact, style(9) should say: >> >> If at all possible, your code should compile without warnings >> when the gcc -Wall flag is given. > > I disagree. As has been shown many times in the past (and I suspect the > down-under constituent will show that at least a couple of the > 'warnings' fixes will be wrong and hide bogus code), making -Wall a goal > causes people to cover up bad code with bad casts and such. > > '-Wall' is *NOT* a good design goal. It works both ways. On the one hand, I hate having to put dummy initialization in for variables that never get used uninitialized, but in ways that the optimizer can't recognize. On the other hand, just today (or yesterday, depending on how you look at it), Matt Dillon changed some stuff in vinum to remove some warnings, and at the same time coincidentally fixed a latent bug. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 00:03:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04324 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:03:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA04319 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:03:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 31298 invoked by uid 1000); 28 Jan 1999 08:03:42 -0000 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:03:42 +0100 From: Andreas Braukmann To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Back to school Message-ID: <19990128090342.B26208@paert.tse-online.de> References: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com> <19990128171124.48589@welearn.com.au> <19990128165745.B4819@freebie.lemis.com> <19990128174013.37143@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <19990128174013.37143@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 05:40:13PM +1100 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, > > You should have one open if you're using the machine. > Not necessarily. Depends how it's set up and used. Definately necessarily. I'm in the unix world since 1989 and never, never found a X-Terminal or a X-Workstation not running one or two xterms (as a minimum). > > This is a more detailled level than that of the original. I had the same expression as Greg. The 'how-to-delete-a-file-with-explorer'-info-sheet (this word is quite as nice as the named tool) implied like Greg's commandline example, that the user knows where the file is located. > Quite so. And your 'rm file' was a different level again. If you want a > realistic comparison, the school example could be expressed at the > level that you used, by saying: > Click on the filename and press the Delete key. no. Because using the explorer you just _have_ to navigate the whole way down to the directory containing the file. I would just type [the sysadmin;) gave me a comfortable interactive shell]: paert:[~] rm ~projwwventanno ... and out of the sudden I just need to press return for deleting a file at a location I've only known rather vaguely beforehand. But to handle one file at a time is something for wheenies, ... the commandlines power strikes when it comes to a bunch of files. A few days ago one of our webdesigners (relatively new employess) came to me admitting that he just had named _all_ these graphic-files conflicting to our internal naming conventions. (ca. 100 files in 3 directories) He asked, if we just should go along with it for 'this project' or if he had really to rename all of them with the explorer. phhh. You should have seen his unbelieving face as a 'one-liner' at the zsh-prompt solved our problem. Regards, Andreas -- : TSE TeleService GmbH : Gsf: Arne Reuter : : : Hovestrasse 14 : Andreas Braukmann : We do it with : : D-48351 Everswinkel : HRB: 1430, AG WAF : FreeBSD/SMP : :--------------------------------------------------------------------: : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 00:35:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA08376 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:35:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA08368 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 00:35:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 105mvM-0002L3-00; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:35:41 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA01593; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:35:07 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02182; Thu, 28 Jan 99 08:35:04 GMT Message-Id: <36B0211F.E6059DC2@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:34:39 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: James Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Back to school References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org James wrote: > > I recently started a new semester as a senior in a computer science > cirricula. I am taking "Intro to Data Communications" which is a > 4400 level course at my school and populated with students most would > assume to be reasonably knowledgeable although a bit green around the > edges. > > As soon as it was announced that UNIX is the preferred platform for > assignments a student announced, "Why can't we use NT?!?!". He also > seemed upset that he would *GASP* have to edit text files for system > configuration. Sounds like a good school to me ;-) An opportunity for you to do a bit of advocacy here methinks. Point out that having all the sys config stuff in text files means that if you cock it up and the system won't boot you can ``boot -s'' and fix it. If they reckon NT can repair a stuffed config then tell them to try disabling ATAPI.SYS on an all-IDE machine, then trying to get it to boot (it'll BSoD with "inaccessible boot device"), even the Repair option from the 3 floppy boot can't fix it....time to re-install (and if you're wondering, yes it happened to me). > > Not to mention that in the sophomore "File Processing" course all students > seem to gripe after being drug away from learning C/C++ in Windows to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Err, is this not a contradiction it terms? > writing for a UNIX machine. > Well, they'll be able to call themselves programmers then, won't they, not just drag 'n' drop GUI builders. > James Higgins > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 01:05:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11617 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:05:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cs.Technion.AC.IL (csa.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA11603 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:05:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.csa (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by cs.Technion.AC.IL (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA13694; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:06:36 +0200 (IST) Received: from localhost by csd.csa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA06608; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:06:33 +0200 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:06:33 +0200 (IST) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Mark Ovens cc: James , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Back to school In-Reply-To: <36B0211F.E6059DC2@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > James wrote: > > [snip] > > > > Not to mention that in the sophomore "File Processing" course all students > > seem to gripe after being drug away from learning C/C++ in Windows to > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Err, is this not a contradiction it terms? > > > writing for a UNIX machine. > > > > Well, they'll be able to call themselves programmers then, won't they, > not just drag 'n' drop GUI builders. Where are the days when File Processing was taught in PL/1 under MVS? Students don't get enough challenges these days ;-) Nothing like writing JCL to make you appreciate the UNIX environment. Talking of students and Windows/UNIX mentality: I'm teaching this semester a course call Introduction to System Programming, which is basically the second semester programming course for undergrads here. The first part of this course is title "Advanced C", and teaches things like pointer arithmetics, data structures in C, and the like. Students are forced to submit code that runs on Solaris using gcc. However, at home most of them use Windows or DOS (mostly because they can get Borland C for DOS for free, not that Solaris isn't free for students). After they had their first home assignment they all came complaining: My program works find under DOS, but in UNIX I get Segmentation Fault. What is wrong with this computer??? When asked: Does your computer continue working after your run your program at home, many answered: "Sometimes we have to cycle the power on it after out program runs, but it *does* run". Sigh. I spent a whole hour explaining to them that Segmentation Fault was simply the result of the system protecting itself from their silly mistakes, and allowing them to catch them as they happen. They never thought that the fact that their program, after generating the required output, locks up the machine means that there's something wrong with it. They're probably used for M$ software to behave the same :-( > > > James Higgins > > Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 01:36:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16401 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:36:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA16387 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:36:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 105nrg-00034U-00; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:35:57 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA01904; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:35:25 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03041; Thu, 28 Jan 99 09:35:23 GMT Message-Id: <36B02F41.C255BB02@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:34:57 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Nadav Eiron Cc: James , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Back to school References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nadav Eiron wrote: > > Sigh. I spent a whole hour > explaining to them that Segmentation Fault was simply the result of the > system protecting itself from their silly mistakes, and allowing them to > catch them as they happen. They never thought that the fact that their > program, after generating the required output, locks up the machine means > that there's something wrong with it. > > They're probably used for M$ software to behave the same :-( > That says it all really, doesn't it? > > > > > James Higgins > > > > > Nadav > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 02:25:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA22893 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:25:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA22871 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 02:25:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 105od8-0001dE-00; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:24:59 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id KAA00454; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:24:27 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA03683; Thu, 28 Jan 99 10:24:25 GMT Message-Id: <36B03AC0.97BC1551@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:24:00 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Yana Lehey Subject: Re: Back to school References: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > My daughter has just gone back to school after the summer break. She > brought back a sheet of paper today with various hints on how to use > their Microsoft system. One thing I found particularly interesting: > > * Deleting a file is simple. Right click on the Start button and > choose Explore. > > * Scroll down to the Network Neighbourhood. Navigate your way to > the folder as before. > > * Move the mouse on to the file you want to change and right click. > You can now delete or rename the file. > > Is there something wrong with me to think that this is more > complicated than `rm file'? > You haven't Cc:'d this to the school ;-) Serious question Greg. Does your daughter use a computer at home, other than for games? If so does she use one of your Unix boxes or do you have a Windows PC? I ask because I've setup KDE and fvwm95 on my machine (I use olvwm) together with a selection of games and editor/word processor packages (Wordpad type things) to see if I could get the kids to use FreeBSD instead of Win95. It has proved quite a successful exercise but my eldest daughter (12) is now starting to get research type homework tasks for which a Multimedia Encyclopaedia (no, we don't use M$ Encarta) is invaluable. As all of these are Windows-only it really prevents me from being able to remove Win95 (and give FreeBSD another 255MB). OK, such research could be done on the Internet, but telephone charges could make this prohibitive, especially for schools. I rather hope that with the increased acceptance of Linux in the mainstream we may see Linux versions of such software available in the not too distant future. Then I can get rid of 95. > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 06:40:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA24314 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:40:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Access.ETSU.Edu ([151.141.99.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA24303 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:40:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from higginsj@iname.com) Received: from pt15.bnoc.net ([208.25.249.110]) by Access.ETSU.Edu (PMDF V5.2-29 #30676) with ESMTP id <01J72IN3B1MG8ZDW0R@Access.ETSU.Edu> for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:39:48 EST Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:42:11 -0500 (EST) From: James Higgins Subject: Re: Back to school In-reply-to: <36B0211F.E6059DC2@uk.radan.com> X-Sender: higginsj@localhost To: xyMark Ovens Cc: FreeBSD Chat Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > James wrote: > > > > Not to mention that in the sophomore "File Processing" course all students > > seem to gripe after being drug away from learning C/C++ in Windows to > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > Err, is this not a contradiction it terms? > > > writing for a UNIX machine. > > > > Well, they'll be able to call themselves programmers then, won't they, > not just drag 'n' drop GUI builders. In a little defense of my department. We do start in CS 1 and 2 doing WIn32 console programs. Not quite drag and drop, although the new version of Visual C++ is getting to the point where even thta is. If we want we can opt to take an MFC or VB class after our algorithms course. Until we get there it is all at least command line driven at a Win32 commnd prompt. James To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 08:01:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04513 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:01:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA04507 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 08:01:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA18081 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:03:38 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:03:38 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Back to school In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Let's be completely honest, guys. We look like a bunch of zealots when we exaggerate. It's equally easy in both a UNIX/X environment and a Winblows environment to delete a file whose full path you know. UNIX/X: 1) Open an Xterm 2) rm /full/path/to/file WINBLOWS: 1) Start -> Run -> command 2) del "/full/path/to/file" If you don't know the file's path: UNIX/X: 1) Open an Xterm 2) locate file (may have to /usr/libexec/locate.updatedb) 3) rm /full/path/to/file WINBLOWS: 1) Start -> Find -> Files or Folders 2) Find the file 3) Highlight the file and Shift-Delete Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 11:08:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA26238 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:08:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from monsoon.dial.pipex.net (monsoon.dial.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA26229 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:08:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kojak@i.am) Received: (qmail 19641 invoked from network); 28 Jan 1999 19:08:22 -0000 Received: from userl313.uk.uudial.com (HELO kojak) (193.149.74.126) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 28 Jan 1999 19:08:22 -0000 Message-ID: <36AF63DE.167EB0E7@i.am> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:07:10 +0000 From: Kojak X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: This is outrageous Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This made me so angry, please spare a moment to check out this article:- http://www.mp3.com/news/159.html This is either a very sick joke or a growing problem to the function of the internet. -Tony To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 11:15:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27262 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:15:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA27201 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:15:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4019.ime.net [209.90.195.29]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id OAA75491; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:14:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990128140336.00b40c50@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:04:59 -0500 To: Kojak , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: This is outrageous In-Reply-To: <36AF63DE.167EB0E7@i.am> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:07 PM 1/27/99 , Kojak wrote: >This made me so angry, please spare a moment to check out >this article:- > >http://www.mp3.com/news/159.html > > This is either a very sick joke or a growing problem to >the function of the internet. > >-Tony Didn't know they were still selling music. But I think this is rather stupid considering Mp3.com is exploiting the achievement of Indie bands (and a few labelers as well I.e. Iced Earth). I think this is GOOD for those bands. People should target 'bad' things. As if mp3.com is aiming for IPO any time soon or something.. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 12:38:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA10381 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:38:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10376 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:38:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (root@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id MAA62830; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:37:33 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id MAA07544; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:37:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 20:36:56 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Mark Ovens cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Back to school In-Reply-To: <36B03AC0.97BC1551@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: >OK, such research could be done on the Internet, but telephone charges >could make this prohibitive, especially for schools. I rather hope >that with the increased acceptance of Linux in the mainstream we may >see Linux versions of such software available in the not too distant >future. Then I can get rid of 95. I think that free software can make this happen. Of course, it would be really nice if the folks at Apple who like our code so much would build a BSD version of Quicktime. Most of these programs are just collections of standard format clips, pics, and some formatting. All most all of them are built with multimedia toolkits like QuickTime or Director. Tools for unix to display the data formats exists. If there were a quicktime or director clone, then the data on the CD could be read and displayed as it would be on a PC. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 14:03:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA23804 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:03:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA23785 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:02:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #1) id 105zWX-00077v-00; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:02:54 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id WAA02709; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:02:13 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11495; Thu, 28 Jan 99 22:02:10 GMT Message-Id: <36B0DE2B.9CB4A6E2@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:01:15 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Back to school References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > >OK, such research could be done on the Internet, but telephone charges > >could make this prohibitive, especially for schools. I rather hope > >that with the increased acceptance of Linux in the mainstream we may > >see Linux versions of such software available in the not too distant > >future. Then I can get rid of 95. > > I think that free software can make this happen. Of course, it would be > really nice if the folks at Apple who like our code so much would build a > BSD version of Quicktime. > That would certainly help, maybe we should ask them? > Most of these programs are just collections of standard format clips, > pics, and some formatting. All most all of them are built with multimedia > toolkits like QuickTime or Director. > We've got IBM World Book and whilst what you say about using std format clips etc is true unfortunately they are all packed in proprietry format archives (wb.dat - 250MB) and they don't even put OS/2 binaries on the CD - it's Windows only. > Tools for unix to display the data formats exists. If there were a > quicktime or director clone, then the data on the CD could be read and > displayed as it would be on a PC. > Unless they will divulge these proprietry formats then there's not much hope of this happening :-( > Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. > Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It was this thinking that caused the problem in the first place. FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 14:44:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29324 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:44:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29313 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:44:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA27139; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:09:28 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id JAA10641; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:09:26 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:09:26 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Back to school Message-ID: <19990129090926.J8473@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jasper O'Malley on Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 10:03:38AM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 28 January 1999 at 10:03:38 -0600, Jasper O'Malley wrote: > > Let's be completely honest, guys. We look like a bunch of zealots when we > exaggerate. It's equally easy in both a UNIX/X environment and a Winblows > environment to delete a file whose full path you know. > > UNIX/X: > > 1) Open an Xterm > 2) rm /full/path/to/file > > WINBLOWS: > > 1) Start -> Run -> command > 2) del "/full/path/to/file" Well, yes, I know there are other ways to do these things. When I'm forced to use Microsoft, I open an ``MS-DOS Command Prompt'', effectively a toy xterm. My main comment was that this is the way they're taught to do it (``and it's simple''). Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 14:45:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA29477 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:45:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA29466 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA27169; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:15:25 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id JAA10668; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:15:24 +1030 (CST) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:15:24 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Yana Lehey Subject: Computers for kids (was: Back to school) Message-ID: <19990129091524.K8473@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com> <36B03AC0.97BC1551@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36B03AC0.97BC1551@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 10:24:00AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 28 January 1999 at 10:24:00 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> My daughter has just gone back to school after the summer break. She >> brought back a sheet of paper today with various hints on how to use >> their Microsoft system. One thing I found particularly interesting: >> >> * Deleting a file is simple. Right click on the Start button and >> choose Explore. >> >> * Scroll down to the Network Neighbourhood. Navigate your way to >> the folder as before. >> >> * Move the mouse on to the file you want to change and right click. >> You can now delete or rename the file. >> >> Is there something wrong with me to think that this is more >> complicated than `rm file'? >> > > You haven't Cc:'d this to the school ;-) I'm still waiting for the answer to my last message. > Serious question Greg. Does your daughter use a computer at home, > other than for games? Yes. > If so does she use one of your Unix boxes or do you have a Windows > PC? The machine she has is dual boot. Most of the time she runs FreeBSD, but occasionally she has to boot Microsoft for games or some such. > I ask because I've setup KDE and fvwm95 on my machine (I use olvwm) > together with a selection of games and editor/word processor packages > (Wordpad type things) to see if I could get the kids to use FreeBSD > instead of Win95. She uses fvwm2, not fvwm95. > It has proved quite a successful exercise but my eldest daughter (12) > is now starting to get research type homework tasks for which a > Multimedia Encyclopaedia (no, we don't use M$ Encarta) is invaluable. > As all of these are Windows-only it really prevents me from being able > to remove Win95 (and give FreeBSD another 255MB). Agreed. This annoys me a lot as well > OK, such research could be done on the Internet, but telephone charges > could make this prohibitive, especially for schools. I rather hope > that with the increased acceptance of Linux in the mainstream we may > see Linux versions of such software available in the not too distant > future. Then I can get rid of 95. I suppose it depends on what you mean by ``not too distant''. I don't see any evidence of people doing any extra work here, and that's what it would boil down to. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 16:29:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA17282 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:29:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA17271 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:29:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA25418; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:04:54 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36B0D0F8.260F9618@seattleu.edu> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:04:56 -0800 From: Eric Hodel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Kojak CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This is outrageous References: <36AF63DE.167EB0E7@i.am> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kojak wrote: > > This made me so angry, please spare a moment to check out > this article:- > > http://www.mp3.com/news/159.html The original message was meant to be serious, but from the look of the patents, that original message won't have any weight. The patents describe a method of distributing digital streams of audio or video (or whatever), which are not the same as MP3s, or any other compressed file. Furthermore, you have to be selling digital streams in order to come close to violating the patents, I think. (No patent expert am I.) -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 19:09:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06159 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:09:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06154 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 19:08:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4019.ime.net [209.90.195.29]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id WAA75879; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:08:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990128215619.00a92d20@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:05:45 -0500 To: Eric Hodel , Kojak From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: This is outrageous Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36B0D0F8.260F9618@seattleu.edu> References: <36AF63DE.167EB0E7@i.am> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:04 PM 1/28/99 , Eric Hodel wrote: >Kojak wrote: >> >> This made me so angry, please spare a moment to check out >> this article:- >> >> http://www.mp3.com/news/159.html > >The original message was meant to be serious, but from the look of the >patents, that original message won't have any weight. The patents >describe a method of distributing digital streams of audio or video >(or whatever), which are not the same as MP3s, or any other compressed >file. Furthermore, you have to be selling digital streams in order to >come close to violating the patents, I think. (No patent expert am >I.) >From what I gathered we were talking DISTRIBUTION in those patents.. While I was over there I noticed a modified version of the A2B was dubbed "MP4". That is going to hit the fan. Supposedly they're trying to clean up the corruption that mp3 has brought. Give me a break, I'll just go old school and copy a cd if I wanted to screw anyone out of money. What bugs me is they say any sort of reverse grabbing of the audio will cause degregation. What stops me from digitally prodding my sound card's output and taking it in as an input stream? The thing is full-duplex, so I could do it. I'll just have to try and find out I guess. Mpeg-4 comes out later this year, I'll be interested to find what they 'call' it.. But also if the file sizes are going to drop significantly or not. Right now the average is about 4mb for a song at 128k/44khz/stereo. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Jan 28 22:35:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29803 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:35:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29794 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:35:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.91]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA4514; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:35:17 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990128140336.00b40c50@genesis.ispace.com> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 07:43:52 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: This is outrageous Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 28-Jan-99 Drew Baxter wrote: > Didn't know they were still selling music. But I think this is rather > stupid considering Mp3.com is exploiting the achievement of Indie bands > (and a few labelers as well I.e. Iced Earth). I think this is GOOD for > those bands. People should target 'bad' things. As if mp3.com is aiming > for IPO any time soon or something.. This the reason why Iced Earth took away the mp3's from their site? Anyways, Iced Earth rocks ;) (something wicked this way comes is a great album) regards, --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven It's a Dance of Energy, asmodai(at)wxs.nl when the Mind goes Binary... Network/Security Specialist BSD & picoBSD: The Power to Serve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 03:28:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02879 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 03:28:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA02874 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 03:28:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id MAA62804; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:28:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Drew Baxter Cc: Eric Hodel , Kojak , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This is outrageous References: <36AF63DE.167EB0E7@i.am> <4.1.19990128215619.00a92d20@genesis.ispace.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 29 Jan 1999 12:28:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: Drew Baxter's message of "Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:05:45 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 11 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Drew Baxter writes: > Mpeg-4 comes out later this year, I'll be interested to find what they > 'call' it.. But also if the file sizes are going to drop significantly or > not. Right now the average is about 4mb for a song at 128k/44khz/stereo. No, the file size is not going to drop. Ever wondered what that "128k" part up there means? furrfu. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 03:32:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03401 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 03:32:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03396 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 03:32:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id MAA66662; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:32:02 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Time to expire some mail From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 29 Jan 1999 12:32:02 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 35 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org des@flood ~/Mail$ du -sk * 1 active 93792 freebsd 1 lists 8005 mail 183 ping 2500 postfix 1303 sent 77 slashdot des@flood ~/Mail$ cd freebsd/ des@flood ~/Mail/freebsd$ du -sk * 949 advocacy 98 announce 536 arch 5841 bugs 3765 chat 23066 committers 18246 current 1502 doc 8470 hackers 1404 isp 20 jobs 1097 net 21772 questions 1851 scsi 1838 security 3019 stable 305 test 12 user-groups Owwie! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 08:48:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA07490 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:48:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA07478 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:48:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 106H61-0005cd-00; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:48:41 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id QAA03847; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:48:13 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA11671; Fri, 29 Jan 99 16:48:12 GMT Message-Id: <36B1E630.D0A44B2@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:47:44 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Yana Lehey , Mark C Ovens Subject: Re: Computers for kids (was: Back to school) References: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com> <36B03AC0.97BC1551@uk.radan.com> <19990129091524.K8473@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > > OK, such research could be done on the Internet, but telephone charges > > could make this prohibitive, especially for schools. I rather hope > > that with the increased acceptance of Linux in the mainstream we may > > see Linux versions of such software available in the not too distant > > future. Then I can get rid of 95. > > I suppose it depends on what you mean by ``not too distant''. I don't > see any evidence of people doing any extra work here, and that's what > it would boil down to. > I get the feeling that the porting of (commercial) apps to Linux (let's face it, that's where they'll get ported first) should start to accelerate now that Corel have produced WP8, and plan to port the whole WP Suite, because there is now a big name mainstream (i.e. end-user or desktop) app available. This should make Linux a viable alternative to Windows in the commercial environment. The reason/excuse; "...but we can't run M$ Office on it" is now invalid. Once a couple more big names "jump on the bandwagon" things should start to snowball I would expect as Linux would be a more realistic option to Windows and it's increased user base would make it an attractive oppotunity for the commercial software companies. As Jason Wells pointed out, Multimedia Encyclopaedias are just a large volume of data in various standard formats, JPEG, MPEG, HTML, etc. and the binaries needed to produce the user interface are a very small part of the product compared to an Office suite. For this reason porting these things to another OS should be a relatively simple (cheap) exercise as viewers for all these formats are readily available so they would be an attractive product for companies to use for getting a share of the new market. In fact the only thing stopping Open source programs being produced to use, say, IBM's World Book is that all these standard format files are stored in proprietry compressed archives with proprietry index files. BTW, on your homepage, how about adding a description of the hardware you are sat in front of in the photo? > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 09:08:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA10334 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:08:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu [18.24.4.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA10328 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:08:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wollman@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu) Received: (from wollman@localhost) by khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA22267; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:08:02 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wollman) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:08:02 -0500 (EST) From: Garrett Wollman Message-Id: <199901291708.MAA22267@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> To: Brian Feldman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: <19990129004749.A8899@netmonger.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org < said: > I seem to remember there once was a comment in a well-known body of code, which > went something like: > "You are not supposed to understand this." The comment was actually ``You are not expected to understand this'', and it was in v7's swtch(). -GAWollman -- Garrett A. Wollman | O Siem / We are all family / O Siem / We're all the same wollman@lcs.mit.edu | O Siem / The fires of freedom Opinions not those of| Dance in the burning flame MIT, LCS, CRS, or NSA| - Susan Aglukark and Chad Irschick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 12:22:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05775 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:22:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA05768 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:21:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4044.ime.net [209.90.195.54]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id PAA77237; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:21:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990129150921.03e581a0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:10:23 -0500 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: This is outrageous Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990128140336.00b40c50@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:43 AM 1/29/99 , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >This the reason why Iced Earth took away the mp3's from their site? > >Anyways, Iced Earth rocks ;) (something wicked this way comes is a great >album) Just saw "My Own Savior" on there less than a week ago. Although their search engine is horrid.. So I'm not sure what you mean there :) If you go under 'metal' you'll see somewhere around #7 is My Own Savior. Unless this changed just within the last week. I have the album, yeah it rocks. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 12:24:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06185 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:24:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06163 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 12:23:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4044.ime.net [209.90.195.54]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.1/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id PAA77241; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:23:10 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990129151038.03e69100@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:12:23 -0500 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: This is outrageous Cc: Eric Hodel , Kojak , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <36AF63DE.167EB0E7@i.am> <4.1.19990128215619.00a92d20@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:28 AM 1/29/99 , Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >Drew Baxter writes: >> Mpeg-4 comes out later this year, I'll be interested to find what they >> 'call' it.. But also if the file sizes are going to drop significantly or >> not. Right now the average is about 4mb for a song at 128k/44khz/stereo. > >No, the file size is not going to drop. Ever wondered what that "128k" >part up there means? furrfu. More for less.. 112K and still CD Audio. The target is CD-Quality audio. the bitrate is variable as long as I still get CD-Quality. I don't mean RealNetworks version of CD-Quality Stereo either, which is something in the 4k/s range. It may be 'better', but it's not CD-Quality. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP ID: 409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 16:00:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04770 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:00:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04739 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:00:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA05603; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:19:14 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id KAA23968; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:19:12 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:19:12 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Sheldon Hearn , Poul-Henning Kamp , Mikhail Teterin , FreeBSD Chat Subject: English style (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) Message-ID: <19990130101911.V8473@freebie.lemis.com> References: <90073.917600532@axl.noc.iafrica.com> <36B1CABD.BCC90EC7@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36B1CABD.BCC90EC7@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 11:50:37PM +0900 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to chat] On Friday, 29 January 1999 at 23:50:37 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > Sheldon Hearn wrote: >> >> I didn't have a problem reading the sentence, even though you left out >> required commas. The only thing that caused a problem was your use of >> split infinitive. ;-) > > Split infinitive is a urban legend. It has *never* been outlawed in > the english language, except for some crazy people in this century > and, I think, later last century. How many English language laws are older? > In fact, when I learned this I saw some interesting examples of very > unreadable text because of lack of split infinitive. :-) Do share. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 16:01:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04939 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:01:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from remus.clara.net (remus.clara.net [195.8.69.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04925 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:01:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ackerj@easynet.co.uk) Received: from ackerj.easynet.co.uk (du-026-0053.claranet.co.uk [195.8.89.53]) by remus.clara.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA13212; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:59:35 GMT (envelope-from ackerj@easynet.co.uk) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990129235250.00689304@mail.easynet.co.uk> X-Sender: ackerj@mail.easynet.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:52:50 +0000 To: Mark Ovens From: Jon Acker Subject: Re: Back to school Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <36B03AC0.97BC1551@uk.radan.com> References: <19990128162246.A4819@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:24 28/01/99 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: >Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> My daughter has just gone back to school after the summer break. She >> brought back a sheet of paper today with various hints on how to use >> their Microsoft system. One thing I found particularly interesting: >> >> * Deleting a file is simple. Right click on the Start button and >> choose Explore. >> >> * Scroll down to the Network Neighbourhood. Navigate your way to >> the folder as before. >> >> * Move the mouse on to the file you want to change and right click. >> You can now delete or rename the file. >> >> Is there something wrong with me to think that this is more >> complicated than `rm file'? > >Serious question Greg. Does your daughter use a computer at home, >other than for games? If so does she use one of your Unix boxes or do >you have a Windows PC? > >I ask because I've setup KDE and fvwm95 on my machine (I use olvwm) >together with a selection of games and editor/word processor packages >(Wordpad type things) to see if I could get the kids to use FreeBSD >instead of Win95. > Interesting to hear someone else talk about this subject. I wanted to try and set up WindowMaker (my fav. wm at the mo.) for my girlfriend (whose used mainly Mac's) to try and use and see how she would cope but fear there aren't enough graphics apps around (she a graphic designer) for FreeBSD/Linux for me to convince her. Still Unix/X is *so* configurable that there might be *some* selling point. >It has proved quite a successful exercise but my eldest daughter (12) >is now starting to get research type homework tasks for which a >Multimedia Encyclopaedia (no, we don't use M$ Encarta) is invaluable. >As all of these are Windows-only it really prevents me from being able >to remove Win95 (and give FreeBSD another 255MB). I haven't tried WINE (windows emulator) myself, but maybe that would some sort of solution? * Jonathan Acker * 0181 374-1012 * ackerj@easynet.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 16:27:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA10837 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:27:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA10814 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:27:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA05740; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:57:43 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id KAA24105; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:57:42 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:57:42 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Garrett Wollman Cc: Brian Feldman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: You are not expected to understand this (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) Message-ID: <19990130105741.X8473@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990129004749.A8899@netmonger.net> <199901291708.MAA22267@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901291708.MAA22267@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu>; from Garrett Wollman on Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 12:08:02PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 29 January 1999 at 12:08:02 -0500, Garrett Wollman wrote: > < said: > >> I seem to remember there once was a comment in a well-known body of code, which >> went something like: >> "You are not supposed to understand this." > > The comment was actually ``You are not expected to understand this'', > and it was in v7's swtch(). Almost. From the Sixth Edition, /usr/sys/ken/slp.c, the end of swtch(): rp = p; curpri = n; /* * Switch to stack of the new process and set up * his segmentation registers. */ retu(rp->p_addr); sureg(); /* * If the new process paused because it was * swapped out, set the stack level to the last call * to savu(u_ssav). This means that the return * which is executed immediately after the call to aretu * actually returns from the last routine which did * the savu. * * You are not expected to understand this. */ if(rp->p_flag&SSWAP) { rp->p_flag =& ~SSWAP; aretu(u.u_ssav); } /* * The value returned here has many subtle implications. * See the newproc comments. */ return(1); } This code had changed completely by the Seventh Edition (and the directory name had changed to /usr/sys/sys). Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 18:52:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA01070 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:52:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA01063 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 18:52:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.11 #1) id 106QWH-0006ld-00; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:52:26 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id CAA00618; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:51:47 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15583; Sat, 30 Jan 99 02:51:45 GMT Message-Id: <36B27388.E1E1D99A@uk.radan.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:50:48 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Sheldon Hearn , Poul-Henning Kamp , Mikhail Teterin , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: English style (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) References: <90073.917600532@axl.noc.iafrica.com> <36B1CABD.BCC90EC7@newsguy.com> <19990130101911.V8473@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > [moved to chat] > > On Friday, 29 January 1999 at 23:50:37 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > Sheldon Hearn wrote: > >> > >> I didn't have a problem reading the sentence, even though you left out > >> required commas. The only thing that caused a problem was your use of > >> split infinitive. ;-) > > > > Split infinitive is a urban legend. It has *never* been outlawed in > > the english language, except for some crazy people in this century > > and, I think, later last century. > Not according to the OED. It is only in the most recent edition that the split infinitive is officially recognized as grammatically correct. The classic example is Star Trek; "To boldly go.....", until now it should have been "Boldly to go...", or "To go boldly....". Still, what the hell. We all speak American nowadays anyway ;-) > How many English language laws are older? > > > In fact, when I learned this I saw some interesting examples of very > > unreadable text because of lack of split infinitive. :-) > > Do share. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It was this thinking that caused the problem in the first place. My homepage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com Radan Computational Ltd | http://www.radan.com Bath, England. CAD/CAM solutions | FreeBSD - The Power To Serve for the Sheetmetal Work industry.| http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 19:03:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA02205 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:03:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA02198 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:03:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA06511; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:32:54 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id NAA36298; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:32:15 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:32:14 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Sheldon Hearn , Poul-Henning Kamp , Mikhail Teterin , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: English style (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) Message-ID: <19990130133214.J8473@freebie.lemis.com> References: <90073.917600532@axl.noc.iafrica.com> <36B1CABD.BCC90EC7@newsguy.com> <19990130101911.V8473@freebie.lemis.com> <36B27388.E1E1D99A@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36B27388.E1E1D99A@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 02:50:48AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 30 January 1999 at 2:50:48 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> [moved to chat] >> >> On Friday, 29 January 1999 at 23:50:37 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >>> Sheldon Hearn wrote: >>>> >>>> I didn't have a problem reading the sentence, even though you left out >>>> required commas. The only thing that caused a problem was your use of >>>> split infinitive. ;-) >>> >>> Split infinitive is a urban legend. It has *never* been outlawed in >>> the english language, except for some crazy people in this century >>> and, I think, later last century. >> > > Not according to the OED. It is only in the most recent edition that the > split infinitive is officially recognized as grammatically correct. > > The classic example is Star Trek; "To boldly go.....", until now it > should have been "Boldly to go...", or "To go boldly....". > > Still, what the hell. We all speak American nowadays anyway ;-) >From an authority that the Americans are more likely to accept, I quote the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th Edition, section 2.98 (footnote): The thirteenth edition of this manual included split infinitives among the examples of ``errors and infelicities'' but tempered the inclusion by adding, in parentheses, that they are ``debatable `error' ''. The term has been dropped from the fourteenth edition because the Press now regards the intelligent and discriminating use of the construction as a legitimate form of expression and nothing writers or editors need feel uneasy about. Indeed, it seems to us that in many cases clarity ad naturalness of expression are best served by a judicious splitting of infinitives. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 19:59:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA08398 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:59:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA08393 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 19:59:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20269; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:59:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd020213; Fri Jan 29 20:58:51 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA22512; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:58:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199901300358.UAA22512@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: English style (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) To: marko@uk.radan.com (Mark Ovens) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 03:58:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com, dcs@newsguy.com, axl@iafrica.com, phk@critter.freebsd.dk, mi@kot.ne.mediaone.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36B27388.E1E1D99A@uk.radan.com> from "Mark Ovens" at Jan 30, 99 02:50:48 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Not according to the OED. It is only in the most recent edition that the > split infinitive is officially recognized as grammatically correct. > > The classic example is Star Trek; "To boldly go.....", until now it > should have been "Boldly to go...", or "To go boldly....". > > Still, what the hell. We all speak American nowadays anyway ;-) "You can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor" "You can't look too long at a nuclear cloud" Ah, English... so many rules, up with which we do not put. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 20:09:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09828 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:09:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09815 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:09:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 106Rim-00024s-00; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:09:25 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id EAA00750; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:08:50 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (rasnt-1) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA15935; Sat, 30 Jan 99 04:08:45 GMT Message-Id: <36B2856E.FE4B1383@uk.radan.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:07:10 +0000 From: Mark Ovens X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Sheldon Hearn , Poul-Henning Kamp , Mikhail Teterin , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: English style (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) References: <90073.917600532@axl.noc.iafrica.com> <36B1CABD.BCC90EC7@newsguy.com> <19990130101911.V8473@freebie.lemis.com> <36B27388.E1E1D99A@uk.radan.com> <19990130133214.J8473@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Saturday, 30 January 1999 at 2:50:48 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > > > Greg Lehey wrote: > >> > >> [moved to chat] > >> > >> On Friday, 29 January 1999 at 23:50:37 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > >>> Sheldon Hearn wrote: > >>>> > >>>> I didn't have a problem reading the sentence, even though you left out > >>>> required commas. The only thing that caused a problem was your use of > >>>> split infinitive. ;-) > >>> > >>> Split infinitive is a urban legend. It has *never* been outlawed in > >>> the english language, except for some crazy people in this century > >>> and, I think, later last century. > >> > > > > Not according to the OED. It is only in the most recent edition that the > > split infinitive is officially recognized as grammatically correct. > > > > The classic example is Star Trek; "To boldly go.....", until now it > > should have been "Boldly to go...", or "To go boldly....". > > > > Still, what the hell. We all speak American nowadays anyway ;-) > > >From an authority that the Americans are more likely to accept, I > quote the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th Edition, section 2.98 > (footnote): > "...that the Americans are more likely to accept..."?. I thought we were talking about English?. The official definition of the English language is the OED, so to quote an obviously American journal on a point of English grammar is inappropriate. American-English and Australian-English are both derivatives of English (I object to the term "British-English"). If Americans have considered the split infinitive grammatically correct for many years then that is up to them, but in _English_ it has only recently become accepted as grammatically correct. > The thirteenth edition of this manual included split infinitives > among the examples of ``errors and infelicities'' but tempered the > inclusion by adding, in parentheses, that they are ``debatable > `error' ''. The term has been dropped from the fourteenth edition > because the Press now regards the intelligent and discriminating use > of the construction as a legitimate form of expression and nothing > writers or editors need feel uneasy about. Indeed, it seems to us > that in many cases clarity ad naturalness of expression are best > served by a judicious splitting of infinitives. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Trust the computer industry to shorten Year 2000 to Y2K. It was this thinking that caused the problem in the first place. My homepage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, | mailto:marko@uk.radan.com Radan Computational Ltd | http://www.radan.com Bath, England. CAD/CAM solutions | FreeBSD - The Power To Serve for the Sheetmetal Work industry.| http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 20:14:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10170 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:14:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA10158 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:14:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA06796; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:44:17 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id OAA48691; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:44:16 +1030 (CST) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:44:16 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Sheldon Hearn , Poul-Henning Kamp , Mikhail Teterin , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: English style (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) Message-ID: <19990130144416.Q8473@freebie.lemis.com> References: <90073.917600532@axl.noc.iafrica.com> <36B1CABD.BCC90EC7@newsguy.com> <19990130101911.V8473@freebie.lemis.com> <36B27388.E1E1D99A@uk.radan.com> <19990130133214.J8473@freebie.lemis.com> <36B2856E.FE4B1383@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36B2856E.FE4B1383@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 04:07:10AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 30 January 1999 at 4:07:10 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Saturday, 30 January 1999 at 2:50:48 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: >>> Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> [moved to chat] >>>> >>>> On Friday, 29 January 1999 at 23:50:37 +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: >>>>> Sheldon Hearn wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I didn't have a problem reading the sentence, even though you left out >>>>>> required commas. The only thing that caused a problem was your use of >>>>>> split infinitive. ;-) >>>>> >>>>> Split infinitive is a urban legend. It has *never* been outlawed in >>>>> the english language, except for some crazy people in this century >>>>> and, I think, later last century. >>>> >>> >>> Not according to the OED. It is only in the most recent edition that the >>> split infinitive is officially recognized as grammatically correct. >>> >>> The classic example is Star Trek; "To boldly go.....", until now it >>> should have been "Boldly to go...", or "To go boldly....". >>> >>> Still, what the hell. We all speak American nowadays anyway ;-) >> >>> From an authority that the Americans are more likely to accept, I >> quote the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th Edition, section 2.98 >> (footnote): >> > > "...that the Americans are more likely to accept..."?. I thought we were > talking about English?. In English, a statement doesn't end with a question mark. But to quote you: >>> Still, what the hell. We all speak American nowadays anyway ;-) >> The thirteenth edition of this manual included split infinitives >> among the examples of ``errors and infelicities'' but tempered the >> inclusion by adding, in parentheses, that they are ``debatable >> `error' ''. The term has been dropped from the fourteenth edition >> because the Press now regards the intelligent and discriminating use >> of the construction as a legitimate form of expression and nothing >> writers or editors need feel uneasy about. Indeed, it seems to us >> that in many cases clarity ad naturalness of expression are best >> served by a judicious splitting of infinitives. > > The official definition of the English language is the OED, so to > quote an obviously American journal on a point of English grammar is > inappropriate. It's not a journal, it's the definitive style guide for the US. > American-English and Australian-English are both derivatives of > English (I object to the term "British-English"). If Americans have > considered the split infinitive grammatically correct for many years > then that is up to them, but in _English_ it has only recently > become accepted as grammatically correct. What I quoted indicates that the situation is similar in the USA. The thirteenth edition was published in 1982, the fourteenth in 1993. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 20:39:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12564 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:39:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA12558 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:39:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul5.u.washington.edu (root@saul5.u.washington.edu [140.142.83.3]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id UAA26504 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:39:56 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul5.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id UAA16316 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 20:39:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:39:17 +0000 (GMT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Day Laters Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It seems like all of the right responses go unnoticed and all the wrong responses garner one a dozen emails a day or two later. Unfortunately, the internet has no technology for yelling, "All Right. All Right. Now would you just leave me alone!" Is there some method the more experience emailers know of to get yourself trimmed out of a thread that will not f*ing die? Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 22:58:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22238 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:58:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22233 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:58:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA87109; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:58:51 -0800 (PST) To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Day Laters In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 30 Jan 1999 04:39:17 GMT." Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 22:58:50 -0800 Message-ID: <87105.917679530@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Is there some method the more experience emailers know of to get yourself > trimmed out of a thread that will not f*ing die? Unsubscribe or use procmail. There's just no way to get people to shut up in the large town hall of email. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Jan 29 23:07:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA23154 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:07:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from stade.demon.co.uk (stade.demon.co.uk [158.152.29.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA23149 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 23:07:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.1) id GAA50586; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 06:15:44 GMT (envelope-from aw1) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 06:15:44 +0000 From: Adrian Wontroba To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Day Laters Message-ID: <19990130061544.A45799@titus.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 04:39:17AM +0000 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 04:39:17AM +0000, Jason C. Wells wrote: > Is there some method the more experience emailers know of to get yourself > trimmed out of a thread that will not f*ing die? Well, a threading MUA like mutt makes it easy to get rid of many messages at once. -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 30 02:09:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08924 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:09:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA08915 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 02:08:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id TAA25075; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 19:03:23 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36B2C611.641223EC@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 17:42:57 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens CC: Greg Lehey , Sheldon Hearn , Poul-Henning Kamp , Mikhail Teterin , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: English style (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) References: <90073.917600532@axl.noc.iafrica.com> <36B1CABD.BCC90EC7@newsguy.com> <19990130101911.V8473@freebie.lemis.com> <36B27388.E1E1D99A@uk.radan.com> <19990130133214.J8473@freebie.lemis.com> <36B2856E.FE4B1383@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > > "...that the Americans are more likely to accept..."?. I thought we were > talking about English?. The official definition of the English language > is the OED, so to quote an obviously American journal on a point of > English grammar is inappropriate. American-English and > Australian-English are both derivatives of English (I object to the term > "British-English"). If Americans have considered the split infinitive > grammatically correct for many years then that is up to them, but in > _English_ it has only recently become accepted as grammatically correct. Err... you mean, *after* it only became incorrect in the second half of last century? Because *before* that, there has never been any talk about split infinitives being incorrect. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 30 06:52:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA00483 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 06:52:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA00477 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 06:52:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA19909; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:02:29 GMT (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 09:02:29 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: Greg Lehey Cc: Garrett Wollman , Brian Feldman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You are not expected to understand this (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) Message-ID: <19990130090229.A19159@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19990129004749.A8899@netmonger.net> <199901291708.MAA22267@khavrinen.lcs.mit.edu> <19990130105741.X8473@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990130105741.X8473@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 10:57:42AM +1030 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 10:57:42AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > The comment was actually ``You are not expected to understand this'', > > and it was in v7's swtch(). > > Almost. From the Sixth Edition, /usr/sys/ken/slp.c, the end of > swtch(): FWIW, there's a similar comment in sys/i386/boot/biosboot/io.c and sys/pci/ncr.c. I have memories of a particularly hairy piece of code somewhere in the time/date libraries, with the comment "You are expected not to understand this", but I can't find it now. N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 30 07:06:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA01581 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 07:06:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from janus.syracuse.net (janus.syracuse.net [205.232.47.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA01574 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 07:06:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from green@unixhelp.org) Received: from localhost (green@localhost) by janus.syracuse.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA29013; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:06:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 10:06:18 -0500 (EST) From: Brian Feldman X-Sender: green@janus.syracuse.net To: Nik Clayton cc: Greg Lehey , Garrett Wollman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You are not expected to understand this (was: btokup().. patch to STYLE(9) (fwd)) In-Reply-To: <19990130090229.A19159@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 30 Jan 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 1999 at 10:57:42AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > The comment was actually ``You are not expected to understand this'', > > > and it was in v7's swtch(). > > > > Almost. From the Sixth Edition, /usr/sys/ken/slp.c, the end of > > swtch(): > > > > FWIW, there's a similar comment in sys/i386/boot/biosboot/io.c and > sys/pci/ncr.c. What am I not expected to understand about the one in io.c? tw_chars is most likely ('|' | '/' << 8 | '-' << 16 | '\\' << 24) (I sure hope I got operator precedence right, if not, then tw_chars is int = *(int *)"|/-\\"). tw_chars = (tw_chars >> 8) | ((tw_chars & (unsigned long)0xFF) << 24); would simply change tw_chars from "|/-\\" to "/-\\|" and so on. I think that someone made too much out of this to be quoting Ken. > > I have memories of a particularly hairy piece of code somewhere in the > time/date libraries, with the comment "You are expected not to understand > this", but I can't find it now. > > N > -- > Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole > Brian Feldman _ __ ___ ___ ___ green@unixhelp.org _ __ ___ | _ ) __| \ http://www.freebsd.org/ _ __ ___ ____ | _ \__ \ |) | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! _ __ ___ ____ _____ |___/___/___/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 30 12:39:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA09106 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:39:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com (assurance.rstcorp.com [206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09097 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 12:39:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22020 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:39:15 -0500 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma022017; Sat, 30 Jan 99 15:38:30 -0500 Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA10559 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:38:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) id PAA55647; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:38:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 15:38:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199901302038.PAA55647@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: home automation, anyone? X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is anyone using home automation products with FreeBSD? I know we have the X10 daemon in the base distribution, and was wondering which specific products people were using with it. Also, is X10 the way to go? or are there other competing protocols that could also be used? Thanks Viren -- Viren Shah | "You can't trust code that you did not totally Research Associate, RST Inc. | create yourself. (Especially code from viren@rstcorp.com | companies that employ people like me.)" http://www.rstcorp.com/~vshah | - Ken Thompson "Reflections on Trusting Trust" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 30 13:34:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17232 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:34:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17222 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:34:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01071; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:34:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd000977; Sat Jan 30 14:34:03 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA19818; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:33:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199901302133.OAA19818@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Day Laters To: jcwells@u.washington.edu Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:33:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at Jan 30, 99 04:39:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Is there some method the more experience emailers know of to get yourself > trimmed out of a thread that will not f*ing die? Post something really derogatory, and set the "Reply-To" header. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 30 21:57:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14851 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:57:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA14846 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:57:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA01999; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:57:09 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36B3F0BB.CD142ADE@seattleu.edu> Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 21:57:15 -0800 From: Eric Hodel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: This is outrageous References: <36AF63DE.167EB0E7@i.am> <4.1.19990128215619.00a92d20@genesis.ispace.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Drew Baxter writes: > > Mpeg-4 comes out later this year, I'll be interested to find what they > > 'call' it.. But also if the file sizes are going to drop significantly or > > not. Right now the average is about 4mb for a song at 128k/44khz/stereo. > > No, the file size is not going to drop. Ever wondered what that "128k" > part up there means? furrfu. I think it is bits per second, which equates to the sample rate. 128k == 44100 kHz, I think. -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Jan 30 22:30:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17895 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:30:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17889 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 22:30:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from [158.152.46.40] (helo=ragnet.demon.co.uk) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 106qOp-0002Is-00; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 06:30:28 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 1.82 #1) id 106l97-00012A-00; Sun, 31 Jan 1999 00:53:53 +0000 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199901302333.QAA24304@usr04.primenet.com> Date: Sun, 31 Jan 1999 00:53:53 -0000 (GMT) From: Duncan Barclay To: Terry Lambert Subject: Re: USB drivers Cc: patl@phoenix.volant.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, (Kevin Day) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to chat. On 30-Jan-99 Terry Lambert wrote: >> The cost for running two production lines, extra fabs, and just the overhead >> of having more than one SKU isn't worth it for most manufacturers. > > Going to FAB on an ASIC is ~$30k; if you intend any volume at all, > then you can afford an ASIC very easily. Terry 30k is not the cost of an ASIC. Sure the fab may charge you that but consider: NRE on design 100k (design and layout costs) Wait 2 months A re-spin 50k Wait 2 months So we have to have maybe four months from tape-out to product pre-production, not good in a market with 6 month product life. Then, because you are not a volume customer the fab die costs will be higher than that which chipset suppliers get. In this business "volume" means millions of parts/year. Other segments are different. An ASIC development nowadays should only be done to gain functionality that doesn't exist elsewhere or aggressive cost reduction. Some realistic options for smaller volumes are special packages, buy the die at cost and put them in smaller packages. But then we get the board manufacture: >> It also would cost us more to get a motherboard without them stuffing the >> USB port connector on it. The connector costs like $.15, but the costs for >> making a different run, different model number, etc, far exceed that, unless >> you're buying hundreds of thousands. > > Right; if that's all you were diking out... Yeah, NRE, re-spins (I've never seen any board not need at least one), inventory control, setting up a line, FCC/UL/EEC testing : it's all hassle. For PC motherboards you go with the flow. Other segments of the electronics industry are different, it's a viable proposition to do it yourself. Labour in the Far East is very cheap but getting access to it is hard if you don't own a factory. A couple of examples to bring this into perspective: PC - Have a look at the shell ends of serial/parallel connectors bundled in mother boards. These are hand soldered because it is cheaper to do that than use IDC connectors on a production line. Hair curling tongs - My wife bought an electrically heated curling tong for UKP2.95, complete with electrical cable and plug, from a high street store. Made in China and by hand. Considering that there is probably 200% markup manufacturing cost (part and labour) was about $1. >> So.. In some cases, if all you want is an ISA/PCI bridge, you're >> better off buying an ISA/PCI bridge that also has IDE, Floppy, >> Serial, Parallel, USB, and a bunch of other stuff, because everyone >> wants those features, so you can sneak in and buy a chip with high >> volume because it's cheap. > > Right, but if you're looking at no PCI, no ISA, just USB, you could > easily use one of the chips they use in mice cameras, or whatever, > with a tiny amount of glue. It shouldn't even take an ASIC at all > to make it go. But a PCI to USB bridge was needed, so PCI is required. > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message