From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 01:39:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00405 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:39:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (lightgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA00395 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:39:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 5327 invoked from network); 7 Feb 1999 09:39:19 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.39.157) by lightgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 7 Feb 1999 09:39:19 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA00458; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:45:23 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:45:23 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" Reply-To: "Oben O. Candemir" To: Josef Grosch cc: Greg Lehey , Drew Baxter , Jamie Bowden , Julian Elischer , Charlie ROOT , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Getting older versions of FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19990203212330.B19080@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > > >> In fact, the 2.0 CD *is* marked Jaunary 1994. Wrong year, and they > > >> spelt the month wrong. It's a collector's item :-) > > The month is mis-spelled in the edge of the jewel case, "Jaunary 1994" and > Chuck has green sneakers instead of the normal red. An error is a collector's item... hmmmm. To put a medical spin on it... the designer of the case and 'Chuck' the sneaker wearing demon may have red-green colour blindness. $0.02 added to the coffers _____________________________________________________________ ___ ___ ____ | / _ \ / _ \ / ___| | To receive my PGP key for email... | | | | | | | | | | | Put 'pgpkey' in the Subject: of a | |_| | | |_| | | |___ | blank email addressed to me; and \___(_) \___(_) \____| | it will be yours in the next post. _________________________|___________________________________ >>>>> obenc[at]nt2(dot)health(dot)usyd(dot)edu(dot)au <<<<< >>>>> dunya[at]one(dot)net(dot)au <<<<< _____________________________________________________________ It's easier to fight for ones principles than live up to them To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 01:39:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00543 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:39:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (lightgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA00420 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:39:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 5332 invoked from network); 7 Feb 1999 09:39:23 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.39.157) by lightgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 7 Feb 1999 09:39:23 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA00443; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:33:04 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:33:04 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" Reply-To: "Oben O. Candemir" To: "Matthew D. Fuller" cc: Terry Lambert , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , marko@uk.radan.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Window managers In-Reply-To: <19990203211255.S16540@futuresouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Feb 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Wed, Feb 03, 1999 at 10:21:38PM +0000, a little birdie told me > that Terry Lambert remarked > > > > > BTW, IWBNI one could tell FvwmWinList not to quit when it got a > > > > ^^^^^ > > > > ??? > > > > > > *sigh* you guys'll make me wear my fingers down to the bone. IWBNI is > > > short for "it would be nice if". > > > > WOCTTOIR... > > > > ("Well Of Course, That's Totally Obvious In Retrospect") > > IOTTMCO > > ("Intuitively Obvious To The Most Casual Observer") > WANK ("We Are Now Knowledgable") To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 01:39:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00563 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:39:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (lightgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA00556 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:39:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 5464 invoked from network); 7 Feb 1999 09:39:38 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.39.157) by lightgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 7 Feb 1999 09:39:38 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA00366; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:15:01 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:14:54 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" Reply-To: "Oben O. Candemir" To: Brett Glass cc: W Gerald Hicks , marko@uk.radan.com, jcwells@u.washington.edu, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets Endorse KDE Was: some slashdot thread In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990201113308.04678240@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:33 AM 2/1/99 -0500, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > >Is it really that important to attract a horde of whiny > >Windows users into FreeBSD? > > Actually, yes. FreeBSD is now seen as having faded into > insignificance as Linux gathers steam. And folks who > don't understand WHY that's happened are assuming that > it must be inferior in quality. FreeBSD is getting > slammed unfairly, and the core team isn't getting the > credit and respect it deserves for its hard, high > quality work. > > The way to fix this *is* to broaden the user base. > > Don't worry that they'll overload the developers > with FAQs. The newbies will start to help one another. > It's happened elsewhere. > Excellent appraisal Brett. I liken it to a great and beautiful monument that is built off the beaten track. If you can't get visitors to come and look at it then was it worth building it? To the builders, possibly yes; to the world at large, ... O Candemir -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBNrzpFFgX7vvUHVY9AQGSqAf+Oy8I0Wm5oWSDm6rlfO1l76eH7qw6wSAz f0NyHGIm4DBvEaAyS/Z6xjXc43oxOFbg6ZPO+Hm11/Kah9iQhnNIQ0zzXGMCqy/l On6LBIGMa1oPKUurt17D4omxjuX0/S35PwkvfhkJR+fu0LyGuObW44E7Cu2nOpxE VlFLROjW6JcFgLbZk9aAxoYD+ku/JKgB0f/n38i0ZtJ6azn8SQUPIepEVhfG7Ow3 IftdPRUZB+cdDpf1MJ2tc0RviU9zPuEwOIYTBspGBGOcKmY6ty5ITAsctgLIIfzR JfMXzXU1ONmDreFEmipjyTxzQRs8OpM0pCCvn7RVB0n5WE8NNtoO4A== =wIRM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 01:40:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00674 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:40:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (lightgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA00583 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:40:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 5476 invoked from network); 7 Feb 1999 09:39:45 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.39.157) by lightgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 7 Feb 1999 09:39:45 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA00324; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:50:13 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:50:13 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" Reply-To: "Oben O. Candemir" To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Sore Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 01-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > People have been talking about this kind of thing for ages. > > What we lack is someone to actually DO THE WORK. :) > > I guess). It would make it easier on newbies (in fact it could be made a > novice install option only as the rest of us know, ahum =), what to do). Some working definitions in the freebsd world: |futile (noun): | Any reasonable request for support for people new to FreeBSD. How can someone 'DO THE WORK' without first learning *HOW* to do it? That is something that Jordan is overlooking I guess... the plainer points of causality. Another working definition: |newbie (slang): | See low-life, lame, retard, pain-in-the-rear. The FreeBSD 'team' looks like they are in trouble when it comes to supporting newbies. A truly dirty word. Documentation rules supreme in this age of information. Perhaps the 'core team' needs to be renamed to the "sore team" from all the scars taken from battles and opportunities lost in winning over new users. Regards, O Candemir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 01:56:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA02078 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:56:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA02073 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 01:56:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.35]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAAD71; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:56:50 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 11:05:51 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Oben O. Candemir" Subject: RE: Sore Support Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jason C. Wells" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Feb-99 Oben O. Candemir wrote: > On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> On 01-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> > People have been talking about this kind of thing for ages. >> > What we lack is someone to actually DO THE WORK. :) >> >> I guess). It would make it easier on newbies (in fact it could be made a >> novice install option only as the rest of us know, ahum =), what to do). > > Some working definitions in the freebsd world: > >|futile (noun): >| Any reasonable request for support for people new to FreeBSD. > > How can someone 'DO THE WORK' without first learning *HOW* to do it? That > is something that Jordan is overlooking I guess... the plainer points of > causality. I beg yer pardon? FreeBSD support is one of the best I have thus far seen on a multitude of mailinglists (only the Amanda list surpasses it). Btw, the quotations above totally mess up the context they were placed in, what I was speaking about was people who start with FreeBSD for the first time. The rest of us, heavily experienced or slightly above newbie level like myself, know what to expect from the install menu's. There is one thing I keep emphasizing time and again, we cannot teach/help/mentor those who are not willing to learn. Sure I started off with a couple of nitwit questions myself about 6 months back (I still remember half the core team going insane over me, probably they still are) but I got pointed to documentation and try to read before going off asking things that were answered about a dozen times before in the past. If someone asks me to explain basic firewalling or beyond, my first question will be: "Do you know TCP/IP networking in detail to the packets?" 80% will answer: no. Then I won't answer until they catch up on TCP/IP so that I won't have to make the whole story 3 times as broad. > Another working definition: > >|newbie (slang): >| See low-life, lame, retard, pain-in-the-rear. Remember that there are two types of newbies: the above mentioned and the ones willing to learn. > The FreeBSD 'team' looks like they are in trouble when it comes to > supporting newbies. A truly dirty word. Documentation rules supreme in > this age of information. Perhaps the 'core team' needs to be renamed to > the "sore team" from all the scars taken from battles and opportunities > lost in winning over new users. The core team isn't really here to help newbies IMHO, they aren't core just to help newbies, their plans are to direct the project in more general lines and be more busy on the actual inner workings. The reason that commit privileges are restricted and that core watches over the total process ensures that the quality of FreeBSD in general remains intact. It's up to users amongst each other to help each other. You know it, else you wouldn't be writing for the ezine just as I am. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 02:38:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA06057 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 02:38:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (darkgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA06051 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 02:38:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 7489 invoked from network); 7 Feb 1999 10:38:36 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.39.157) by darkgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 7 Feb 1999 10:38:36 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA03338; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:40:55 +1100 (EST) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:40:55 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" Reply-To: "Oben O. Candemir" To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: "Oben O. Candemir" , "Jason C. Wells" , "Jason C. Wells" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: RE: Sore Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It's up to users amongst each other to help each other. You know it, else > you wouldn't be writing for the ezine just as I am. Jeroen, I take your points... the email was half in jest though :) It would be an ideal world where everyone was willing to both teach and learn. I am used to dealing with people who are wanting to learn because of my extensive links with education and because my profession (ophthalmology/medicine) depends on people teaching each other and learning from each other. I understand that people in the computer industry who work with computers nine to five have a different perspective than I do. I'm just giving a different viewpoint. I don't have to 'be nice' and 'be careful of toes' lest I step on them like some other enthusiasts here who have dreams of joining 'teams' etc. I just use my computer for enjoyment and developing end user solutions. I do that well, and I am always willing to help others without attempting to classify them into various boxes before I deal with them. That comes from my medical training, where noone is refused services. Once you start helping on the basis of some parameter then you have strictly speaking discriminated. I leave it to others to decide whether they wish to discriminate... Oben Candemir To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 02:58:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA08465 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 02:58:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA08450 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 02:58:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.35]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA2AAC; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:57:57 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:06:50 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Oben O. Candemir" Subject: RE: Sore Support Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Feb-99 Oben O. Candemir wrote: > >> It's up to users amongst each other to help each other. You know it, >> else you wouldn't be writing for the ezine just as I am. > > Jeroen, I take your points... the email was half in jest though :) Please, please, please use smiley's next time then... > It would be an ideal world where everyone was willing to both teach > and learn. The people whom I meet on IRC, the lists and in Real Life(tm) are often willing to learn. > I understand that people in the computer industry who work with computers > nine to five have a different perspective than I do. I'm just giving a > different viewpoint. I don't have to 'be nice' and 'be careful of toes' > lest I step on them like some other enthusiasts here who have dreams of > joining 'teams' etc. Well, given the fact that some people consider getting the Nobel award the highest achievement, others might think so of joining something like a core team or whatever other thing that means a lot for an invidual for his hobbies/interest. For some it's personal gratification, for others its the recognition, and others don't give jack about it =) > I just use my computer for enjoyment and developing end user solutions. I > do that well, and I am always willing to help others without attempting > to classify them into various boxes before I deal with them. That comes > from my medical training, where noone is refused services. Once you start > helping on the basis of some parameter then you have strictly speaking > discriminated. End user eh? Likeable testsubject for our latest newbie helping ideas is more like it =) > I leave it to others to decide whether they wish to discriminate... Well an honest answer to honest statement, I discriminate, as I rather spend my time on people willing to learn than those not willing. That way it is more enjoyable for both the one to explain as the one trying to grasp it. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 03:25:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA12501 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 03:25:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA12307; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 03:25:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id WAA15058; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:24:41 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990207222432.36384@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:24:32 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Licia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Nicole Harrington , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 11:21:32AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat (from -advocacy)] On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 11:21:32AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 07-Feb-99 Licia wrote: > > On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Sue Blake wrote: > >> On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 11:17:06PM -0600, Licia wrote: > > >> > (laughing) Ok, where does that leave -gay- women? :) > > >> Attracted to FreeBSD? :-) > > > ahh... that's why I like FreeBSD so much? > > > > (digging through /usr/src/ looking for the #include > > statements!) > > *cough, choke, laugh* > > UGGGH, there went my tea again... Could ye lads 'n lasses please prefix > something like FUN: in the subject line? That would make me put away my tea > on forehand ;) > > Actually, on a sidenote, the number of female IT specialists if slowly > growing afaik. Just curious which jobs/positions they fullfill as most I > know/have known were more into management and other more `economic-related' > positions than pure techiework such as coding, sysadmining or > networkmanaging. On the occasions I've been an employee, people have had a lot of trouble working out where to slot me in. It's like there's a slot at the bottom and a slot at the top, but nobody wants to see unusual people working at the benches like a Normal. It's OK to be an expert, to train people, to write about it, to boss people around and spend money, to present papers at prestigious national and international events, or to change policies that affect the working lives of millions; it's not OK to do the actual bloody work. I have no reason to put this down to being a woman, but it has happened most in situations where I was the only woman in the workplace, or in the whole industry, the only anglo-looking member of the Buddhist society, or the only recorder player in the symphony orchestra, the only FreeBSD user, or soemthing like that. Suddenly someone spots a spuriously wonderful talent, and instantly Cinderella becomes Mother Theresa and can't say fuck any more. It seems that any people who are different from others in a field are more easily accepted as exceptional people than as human beings with the standard range of skills and weaknesses. Think also of sports people belonging to racial minorities, university undergraduates older than 30, and the many blind musicians who have average talent. Treating someone as a god doesn't necessarily mean you can really handle them being there. Nor does it do much to help them. I don't know if this is what other women experience or what happens in IT, or not (no data to go on), but if it is, it's just part of a broader human nature stuffup. It's also yet another reason why we must get our numbers up quickly. When we're allowed to find our own level and fail a bit just like everyone else, we will be starting to succeed. Meanwhile, it looks like a larger than expected proportion of us, regardless of gender, are united by our mutual interest in women :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 03:34:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13529 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 03:34:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA13430 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 03:33:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id WAA15081; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:32:51 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990207223247.52458@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:32:47 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: "Oben O. Candemir" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: Sore Support References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 12:06:50PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry guys, I feel obliged to say something because I can see where you're both coming from, but I don't want to buy into the arguments because they're false. You both believe all the same things, but you're arguing from different contexts. Just in case this helps some: Mailing lists (particularly -questions) are for support and sharing IRC is for flame practice Mix and match at your own peril. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 03:43:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA14992 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 03:43:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA14986 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 03:43:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.35]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA5710; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:43:30 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990207223247.52458@welearn.com.au> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 12:52:31 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Sue Blake Subject: Re: Sore Support Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jason C. Wells" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Oben O. Candemir" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 07-Feb-99 Sue Blake wrote: > > Sorry guys, I feel obliged to say something because I can see where > you're both coming from, but I don't want to buy into the arguments > because they're false. You both believe all the same things, but you're > arguing from different contexts. False? In what way? > Just in case this helps some: > > Mailing lists (particularly -questions) are for support and sharing > IRC is for flame practice > Mix and match at your own peril. Uggghh, yer generalising again Sue... I don't know which IRC server you tried, but it's common knowledge that different IRC networks have different attitudes, my happy go-along style didn't match EFNet (too 'l33t in my opinion) and DALNet (too restrictive in some ways), so I ended up on Undernet and have to say that the channels I frequent there are some of the friendliest I know... But to step out of the IRC discussion again, the mailinglists aren't always that helpful as well. It's the attitudes of the posters than designate the tone of conversation, and on some lists (not here) it can be worse than IRC if I may judge the scale on your citation above. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 04:12:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA19581 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 04:12:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA19511 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 04:11:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id EAA33492; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 04:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: Sore Support In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Feb 1999 11:50:13 +1100." Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 04:11:35 -0800 Message-ID: <33488.918389495@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > |futile (noun): > | Any reasonable request for support for people new to FreeBSD. lazy (noun): The real problem with most people who write this kind of lame justifcation. :) > How can someone 'DO THE WORK' without first learning *HOW* to do it? That That's your problem - what were you expecting, a free education? Take an extention course if that's what you're interested in here. In any case, there is a huge difference between "newbie" and "whiner." I see no newbies in this discussion. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 04:18:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA20478 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 04:18:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA20471 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 04:18:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id EAA33525; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 04:18:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) cc: "Oben O. Candemir" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: Sore Support In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Feb 1999 04:11:35 PST." <33488.918389495@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 04:18:32 -0800 Message-ID: <33521.918389912@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > lazy (noun): > The real problem with most people who write this kind of lame > justifcation. :) Just before I get ten million corrections, let me just say that (noun) above is a paste-o. I don't actually think that the word "lazy" is a noun, so please, save your fingers. :) -= Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 10:50:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA27204 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:50:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA27199 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 10:50:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.31]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA4244 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:48:49 -0500 Message-ID: <36BDE077.D1C80F2F@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 13:50:31 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: New CODA release Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BAD news; Coda is now GPL'd, that gives a good-bye to seeing this code integrated by any commercial UNIX :-(. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 11:00:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28049 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:00:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA28044 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:00:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09317; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:00:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:00:29 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New CODA release In-Reply-To: <36BDE077.D1C80F2F.kithrup.freebsd.chat@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <36BDE077.D1C80F2F.kithrup.freebsd.chat@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> you write: >Coda is now GPL'd, that gives a good-bye to seeing this code integrated >by any commercial UNIX :-(. Yes, because that damn GPL has certainly prevented gcc from being the single most popular compiler ever available for unix systems. And that damn GPL has certainly prevented emacs from being distributed by commercial UNIX vendors. And, gosh, that damn GPL has certainly prevented Samba from being of ANY use to ANYONE, it's a good thing the FreeBSD Project won't touch it. Whiner. You don't like it, go write your own. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 11:54:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA04960 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:52:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles235.castles.com [208.214.165.235]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04946 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:52:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06918; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 11:48:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199902071948.LAA06918@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: Sore Support In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Feb 1999 11:50:13 +1100." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 11:48:16 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We carefully note that you are doing a great deal of complaining, but no actual work. Would you care to align youself with the problem, or the solution? We'll gladly accept any real effort you care to expend on the Project, but if call you can do is whine about how someone else isn't doing what you personally think they should, then you really should just go and get lost. Yes, we need more help. Yes, we know this. No, you're not providing any. Please recitfy the situation. > On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > > On 01-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > People have been talking about this kind of thing for ages. > > > What we lack is someone to actually DO THE WORK. :) > > > > I guess). It would make it easier on newbies (in fact it could be made a > > novice install option only as the rest of us know, ahum =), what to do). > > Some working definitions in the freebsd world: > > |futile (noun): > | Any reasonable request for support for people new to FreeBSD. > > How can someone 'DO THE WORK' without first learning *HOW* to do it? That > is something that Jordan is overlooking I guess... the plainer points of > causality. > > Another working definition: > > |newbie (slang): > | See low-life, lame, retard, pain-in-the-rear. > > > The FreeBSD 'team' looks like they are in trouble when it comes to > supporting newbies. A truly dirty word. Documentation rules supreme in > this age of information. Perhaps the 'core team' needs to be renamed to > the "sore team" from all the scars taken from battles and opportunities > lost in winning over new users. > > Regards, > O Candemir > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 12:02:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06247 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:02:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kendra.ne.mediaone.net (kendra.ne.mediaone.net [24.128.94.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06239 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:02:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from software@kew.com) Received: from sonata.hh.kew.com (root@sonata-dmz.hh.kew.com [192.168.205.1]) by kendra.ne.mediaone.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA27420; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:02:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from kew.com (minerva.hh.kew.com [192.168.203.144]) by sonata.hh.kew.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id PAA00363; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:02:19 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36BDF14A.3520C89D@kew.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:02:18 -0500 From: Drew Derbyshire Organization: Kendra Electronic Wonderworks, Stoneham, MA 02180 (http://www.kew.com) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New CODA release References: <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The sarcasm was uncalled for. Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > In article <36BDE077.D1C80F2F.kithrup.freebsd.chat@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> you write: > >Coda is now GPL'd, that gives a good-bye to seeing this code integrated > >by any commercial UNIX :-(. > > Yes, because that damn GPL has certainly prevented gcc from being the single > most popular compiler ever available for unix systems. > > And that damn GPL has certainly prevented emacs from being distributed by > commercial UNIX vendors. > > And, gosh, that damn GPL has certainly prevented Samba from being of ANY use > to ANYONE, it's a good thing the FreeBSD Project won't touch it. > > Whiner. You don't like it, go write your own. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Drew Derbyshire UUPC/extended e-mail: software@kew.com Telephone: 617-279-9812 Harris's Lament: All the good ones are taken To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 12:06:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA06621 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:06:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06616 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 12:06:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (bangor-1.ime.net [209.90.195.58]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.2/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id PAA01210; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:05:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990207145714.03cf0b10@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 15:03:03 -0500 To: Mike Smith , "Oben O. Candemir" From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Sore Support Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" In-Reply-To: <199902071948.LAA06918@dingo.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:48 PM 2/7/99 , Mike Smith wrote: > >We carefully note that you are doing a great deal of complaining, but >no actual work. > >Would you care to align youself with the problem, or the solution? > >We'll gladly accept any real effort you care to expend on the Project, >but if call you can do is whine about how someone else isn't doing >what you personally think they should, then you really should just go >and get lost. > >Yes, we need more help. Yes, we know this. No, you're not providing >any. Please recitfy the situation. People are willing to learn if they want to try something new. So I wouldn't be one to say that FreeBSD Users aren't getting support. As it goes, you pay 0$ for something and *anything* is worth what you paid. Getting people to notice things is hard when people that are just starting out on computers are looking to the mass media (print and television, lately web as well). The fact that I run FreeBSD in a small town in the middle of nowhere gets questions asked. If people know whats there, they're likely to want to find out how to swing it if they have an application. After all, that's why I use FreeBSD. If anything it does/did/can do what I want and more. At the very least be a cheerleader if you can't do the work yourself. I wouldn't go blasting people because a device driver isn't totally functioning. Everyone on the boards has lives, and jobs that pay the bills, thus supercede this atmosphere at least a little.. Alright, I admit it, I don't have a life. But someone out there must. :-) My $0.02 (Taxed it'd be 0.03$). --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA Network Operations, Developer, Jackass: Orland Consolidated School, Orland Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 13:06:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA14419 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:06:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from fep02-svc.tin.it (mta02-acc.tin.it [212.216.176.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA14408 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 13:06:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@tin.it) Received: from nympha.ecomotor.it ([212.216.1.217]) by fep02-svc.tin.it (InterMail v4.0 201-221-105) with SMTP id <19990207210556.AZP13403.fep02-svc@nympha.ecomotor.it> for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:05:56 +0100 Received: (qmail 660 invoked by uid 1000); 7 Feb 1999 20:17:54 -0000 From: "Marco Molteni" Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 21:17:54 +0100 (CET) X-Sender: molter@nympha To: "Oben O. Candemir" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sore Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Oben O. Candemir wrote: [..] > How can someone 'DO THE WORK' without first learning *HOW* to do it? That > is something that Jordan is overlooking I guess... the plainer points of > causality. [..] > The FreeBSD 'team' looks like they are in trouble when it comes to > supporting newbies. A truly dirty word. Documentation rules supreme in > this age of information. Perhaps the 'core team' needs to be renamed to > the "sore team" from all the scars taken from battles and opportunities > lost in winning over new users. Oben, I strongly disagree with you. I always had very good help from the variuos FreeBSD mailing lists, and I always saw expert or totally newby people being helped. The core is the core. Their job isn't helping users. Their job is providing us this hi-quality OS. Nonetheless, I saw many times core members helping people. Sometimes one forgets that FreeBSD is *FREE*, you don't pay for it. FreeBSD isn't a graphical front end to a pseudo OS, FreeBSD is a *real* OS, is Unix. The learning curve may be hard at the beginning (how do you say it in english, steep ?) but, once you see the light, you can do *everything* you want. Oh well, I'd have much more to say, but it has been said many times already. Read the handbook, read the FAQ, go get some good book on Unix, do your homework, be happy, enjoy the life :-) Thanks to all the folks who bring us this fantastic OS. Marco --- "Hi, I have a Compaq machine running Windows 95. How do I install FreeBSD?" "I'm sorry, this is device driver testing: brain implants are two doors down on the right". (Bill Paul, on the freebsd-net mailing list) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 15:00:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA29949 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:00:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA29935 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 15:00:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.39]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA4373 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:59:11 -0500 Message-ID: <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 18:00:53 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New CODA release References: <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > Whiner. You don't like it, go write your own. > Ohh.. so everyone that doesn't like GPL is a whiner nowadays...The nice thing of a filesystem like CODA would be being able to use it with a LOT of platforms (yes, including commercial ones with expensive suport) without the license getting in your way. There's no need to write my own, I'll just ignore the GPL version..., ohh and I hope that if this get's committed to the FreeBSD tree we start with version 4.0 so I can undo the GPL stuff. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 16:29:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA12229 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:29:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA12218 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:29:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA09575; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:28:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:28:48 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New CODA release Message-ID: <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co>; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 06:00:53PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 06:00:53PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > > Whiner. You don't like it, go write your own. > > Ohh.. so everyone that doesn't like GPL is a whiner nowadays...The nice No, the guy that was whining was a whiner. The coders of Coda made up their minds to go with the GPL. The whining guy didn't try to influence their decision, didn't present new reasons why Coda shouldn't be GPLed, but was just bitching and moaning about it. That's fine, but then if Sean wants to call him a whiner, he won't be far off. > thing of a filesystem like CODA would be being able to use it with a LOT > of platforms (yes, including commercial ones with expensive suport) > without the license getting in your way. Yes, it would be nice. No, it won't happen in commercial systems unless the Coda people can be convinced to either not use the GPL or provide an alternative licensing scheme. That's life. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter If I had finished this sentence mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 17:29:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA20723 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:29:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA20691 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:29:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.32]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA4620; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 20:27:57 -0500 Message-ID: <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:29:16 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New CODA release References: <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 06:00:53PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > > > > Whiner. You don't like it, go write your own. > > > > Ohh.. so everyone that doesn't like GPL is a whiner nowadays...The nice > > No, the guy that was whining was a whiner. The coders of Coda made up > their minds to go with the GPL. The whining guy didn't try to > influence their decision, didn't present new reasons why Coda shouldn't > be GPLed, but was just bitching and moaning about it. That's fine, but > then if Sean wants to call him a whiner, he won't be far off. > OK, I didn't bitch and moan so I still don't classify :-)...There was a short discussion about it in the coda-announce list, the reason seemed pretty stupid to me: "- Coda is now GPL'd - primarily because we want to indicate that we are really an OSS project." Theo d'Raadt, speaking for OpenBSD _only_ responded: > > good move -- you've just alienated all the other operating systems and > ensured that none of them will ever fully integrate coda into the > default install. i bet you'll be seeing freebsd and netbsd deleting > coda in the next couple of days, since they have rules against > dropping GPL code into their kernel tree. > > We'll stick with ARLA. It's really _free_ software. > Since you wanna hear reasons why it isn't a good idea: -Commercial distributions don't like to be forced to carry sources for parts of their OS. That's of course part of the success of X and many BSD tools. I haven't heard of any commercial UNIX bundling gcc yet.. - From an economical point of view, the GPL has a negative effect over capitalism, and will eventually have some effect on employment (I'm not kidding, I'll have to write a dissertation about this, but I haven't found the time). The BSD license doesn't have this effect. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 17:46:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA22591 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:46:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA22580 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:46:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA41166; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 17:44:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902080144.RAA41166@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" cc: Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New CODA release In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Feb 1999 20:29:16 EST." <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 17:44:23 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Pedro, Save your typing for an audience which has the minimal intelligence level of at least walking and chewing gum at the same time 8) Cheers, Amancio > Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > > On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 06:00:53PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > > Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > > > > > > Whiner. You don't like it, go write your own. > > > > > > Ohh.. so everyone that doesn't like GPL is a whiner nowadays...The nice > > > > No, the guy that was whining was a whiner. The coders of Coda made up > > their minds to go with the GPL. The whining guy didn't try to > > influence their decision, didn't present new reasons why Coda shouldn't > > be GPLed, but was just bitching and moaning about it. That's fine, but > > then if Sean wants to call him a whiner, he won't be far off. > > > OK, I didn't bitch and moan so I still don't classify :-)...There was a > short discussion about it in the coda-announce list, the reason seemed > pretty stupid to me: > > "- Coda is now GPL'd - primarily because we want to indicate that we are > really an OSS project." > > Theo d'Raadt, speaking for OpenBSD _only_ responded: > > > > good move -- you've just alienated all the other operating systems and > > ensured that none of them will ever fully integrate coda into the > > default install. i bet you'll be seeing freebsd and netbsd deleting > > coda in the next couple of days, since they have rules against > > dropping GPL code into their kernel tree. > > > > We'll stick with ARLA. It's really _free_ software. > > > > Since you wanna hear reasons why it isn't a good idea: > > -Commercial distributions don't like to be forced to carry sources for > parts of their OS. That's of course part of the success of X and many > BSD tools. I haven't heard of any commercial UNIX bundling gcc yet.. > > - From an economical point of view, the GPL has a negative effect over > capitalism, and will eventually have some effect on employment (I'm not > kidding, I'll have to write a dissertation about this, but I haven't > found the time). The BSD license doesn't have this effect. > > Pedro. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 18:18:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26440 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:18:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA26425; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:18:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA19717; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 19:18:14 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36BE4965.E2CDC046@softweyr.com> Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 19:18:13 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake CC: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Licia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Nicole Harrington , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: <19990207222432.36384@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > > On the occasions I've been an employee, people have had a lot of > trouble working out where to slot me in. It's like there's a slot at > the bottom and a slot at the top, but nobody wants to see unusual > people working at the benches like a Normal. It's OK to be an expert, > to train people, to write about it, to boss people around and spend > money, to present papers at prestigious national and international > events, or to change policies that affect the working lives of > millions; it's not OK to do the actual bloody work. > > I have no reason to put this down to being a woman, but it has happened > most in situations where I was the only woman in the workplace, or in > the whole industry, the only anglo-looking member of the Buddhist > society, or the only recorder player in the symphony orchestra, the > only FreeBSD user, or soemthing like that. Suddenly someone spots a > spuriously wonderful talent, and instantly Cinderella becomes Mother > Theresa and can't say fuck any more. > > It seems that any people who are different from others in a field are > more easily accepted as exceptional people than as human beings with > the standard range of skills and weaknesses. Think also of sports > people belonging to racial minorities, university undergraduates older > than 30, and the many blind musicians who have average talent. Treating > someone as a god doesn't necessarily mean you can really handle them > being there. Nor does it do much to help them. > > I don't know if this is what other women experience or what happens in > IT, or not (no data to go on), but if it is, it's just part of a > broader human nature stuffup. It's also yet another reason why we must > get our numbers up quickly. When we're allowed to find our own level > and fail a bit just like everyone else, we will be starting to succeed. I think you've hit on an important point here, Sue. It's never quite comfortable being "odd man out," or in this case "odd woman out." My office has 17 software engineers, of which 3 are female. They are all pretty much just a part of the team, and bring different talents and abilities, just like the 14 males. They are different enough that we don't have any sort of "women's caucus," as are the men. The groups that naturally form in any human group tend to form more along the lines of sense of humor, education, etc. I don't think this would happen quite so well if there were only one woman on the engineering team, or in the office, she'd always be treated differently. So, let's all go out and recruit more female FreeBSD contributors, so we can get around to treating the lot of them as badly as we treat each other right now. ;^) > Meanwhile, it looks like a larger than expected proportion of us, > regardless of gender, are united by our mutual interest in women :-) Women fascinate me; they always have. And I'm not even looking for a date. I have 1.2 women at home with me now, and have a date with 1 every Tuesday night, when .2 is at my parent's house for the evening. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 18:25:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA27308 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:25:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA27303 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 18:25:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA25725; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:55:32 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id MAA47293; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:55:30 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:55:30 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Message-ID: <19990208125530.X86778@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co>; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 08:29:16PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 7 February 1999 at 20:29:16 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: >> >> On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 06:00:53PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >>> Sean Eric Fagan wrote: >>>> >>>> Whiner. You don't like it, go write your own. >>> >>> Ohh.. so everyone that doesn't like GPL is a whiner nowadays...The nice >> >> No, the guy that was whining was a whiner. The coders of Coda made up >> their minds to go with the GPL. The whining guy didn't try to >> influence their decision, didn't present new reasons why Coda shouldn't >> be GPLed, but was just bitching and moaning about it. That's fine, but >> then if Sean wants to call him a whiner, he won't be far off. > > OK, I didn't bitch and moan so I still don't classify :-)...There was a > short discussion about it in the coda-announce list, the reason seemed > pretty stupid to me: > > "- Coda is now GPL'd - primarily because we want to indicate that we are > really an OSS project." > > Theo d'Raadt, speaking for OpenBSD _only_ responded: >> >> good move -- you've just alienated all the other operating systems and >> ensured that none of them will ever fully integrate coda into the >> default install. i bet you'll be seeing freebsd and netbsd deleting >> coda in the next couple of days, since they have rules against >> dropping GPL code into their kernel tree. >> >> We'll stick with ARLA. It's really _free_ software. As you say, Theo was speaking for OpenBSD _only_. He also has a good understanding of alienating others. > Since you wanna hear reasons why it isn't a good idea: > > -Commercial distributions don't like to be forced to carry sources for > parts of their OS. That's of course part of the success of X and many > BSD tools. I haven't heard of any commercial UNIX bundling gcc yet.. It was the standard compiler for OSF/1, so there's a good chance it is for Digital UNIX as well. And there's nothing in the GPL that says you must be forced to carry sources, just supply them (for a price that you can name) if somebody demands them. This means you can say ``OK, I'll get you the sources for $5000, or you can get them yourselves for free from ftp.gnu.org''. > - From an economical point of view, the GPL has a negative effect over > capitalism, and will eventually have some effect on employment (I'm not > kidding, I'll have to write a dissertation about this, but I haven't > found the time). The BSD license doesn't have this effect. Why not? In each case, it's free software. And people are making more money out of GPL software than Berkeley Licence software. Why do so many people blow this GPL issue out of proportion? There's so much FUD about it that you'd think somebody has a hidden agenda. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 22:00:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA17298 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:00:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from netcom3.netcom.com (netcom3.netcom.com [192.100.81.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA17291 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:00:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from das@netcom.com) Received: (from das@localhost) by netcom3.netcom.com (8.8.5-r-beta/8.8.5/(NETCOM v1.02)) id WAA08774; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:00:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:00:14 -0800 (PST) From: Das Devaraj Subject: Re: Berkeley BAFUG Meetings, Part II To: Josef Grosch cc: announce@bafug.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, eric@transbay.net In-Reply-To: <19990205070131.A27432@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > I cast the first vote for the 4th Thursday > of each month which means our first meeting will be on March 25th. Is there any particular reason that it has to be on Thursday only? There may be other people (like me) who may find any Thursday difficult to attend. Since we already have one meeting on Thursday (SF group), why don't we have the Berkeley one on any other day? Say Wednesday or Tuesday of the last week of the month. It is generous of Transbay to let us hold meetings there. But it will be cool to hold these meetings at UC Berkeley itself. After all, Linux folks do that. (Now that I am on a roll with suggestions) please consider having a different format from the SF group. Might bring some new people in. das To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 22:21:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19896 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:21:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19888 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:21:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00793; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:20:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990207222048.A706@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:20:48 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Das Devaraj Cc: announce@bafug.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, eric@transbay.net Subject: Re: Berkeley BAFUG Meetings, Part II Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990205070131.A27432@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Das Devaraj on Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 10:00:14PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 10:00:14PM -0800, Das Devaraj wrote: > On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > I cast the first vote for the 4th Thursday > > of each month which means our first meeting will be on March 25th. > > Is there any particular reason that it has to be on Thursday > only? There may be other people (like me) who may find any > Thursday difficult to attend. > > Since we already have one meeting on Thursday (SF group), > why don't we have the Berkeley one on any other day? > Say Wednesday or Tuesday of the last week of the month. I am more than happy to entertain any day of the week except the second Thursday of the month since that is the date of the San Francisco BAFUG. I really don't want to hold the meetings on Wednesday because I would miss "Deep Space 9". Sorry if that sounds really juvenile but what can I say. If everybody is dead set on Wednesday than so be it. But have a look the Berkeley BAFUG vote page, http://www.bafug.org/BerkeleyBafugVote.html, only 7 people have written in. I'm sure that we will have more members in the future but at first we will be lucky if we can scratch up enough cash to get an extra large from Fat Slice! > It is generous of Transbay to let us hold meetings there. > But it will be cool to hold these meetings at UC Berkeley > itself. After all, Linux folks do that. (Now that I am on > a roll with suggestions) please consider having a different > format from the SF group. Might bring some new people in. Well, the reason we are holding the meetings at Transbay and not UC Berkeley is because Transbay offered me the space not UC Berkeley ;-) If we grow out of the space at Transbay then we will look else where. Maybe by then I will have found a contact at UC Berkeley but doing something just because the Linux people are doing it is not always a good idea. Anybody who knows me will be glad to tell you that I am not a fan of lemming behavior. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 22:21:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA19949 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:21:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA19944 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:21:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA07458; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:21:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990207230639.009284c0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:21:07 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Cc: Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990208125530.X86778@freebie.lemis.com> References: <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:55 PM 2/8/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> - From an economical point of view, the GPL has a negative effect over >> capitalism, and will eventually have some effect on employment (I'm not >> kidding, I'll have to write a dissertation about this, but I haven't >> found the time). The BSD license doesn't have this effect. > >Why not? In each case, it's free software. And people are making >more money out of GPL software than Berkeley Licence software. They're not making money from the software itself. They're making money by providing services RELATED TO the software, such as books, CDs with the software pressed onto them, etc. As the Net becomes ubiquitous and very fast, the market for CD-ROMs of free software will dry up. (Who needs the CD when you can download instantly and for free?) The markets for support, consulting, and books won't (You'll still make money from FreeBSD books), but they won't make people rich, either. As for why the GPL is bad for business: it treats business unfairly. Users can use GPLed software to serve THEIR needs, but commercial software companies can't use it to fulfill THEIRS. That's the intent: to drive commercial software companies out of business. One way it does this is to drive the market value of a product with a given feature set to zero, while keeping its cost to commercial software vendors (either in development or licensing costs) high. Free software can and does take away business opportunities. But the BSD license, unlike the GPL, "gives back" by allowing commercial software companies to build on the code and add value without forfeiting the money they could make from their labor. >Why do so many people blow this GPL issue out of proportion? I guess it's a matter of your sense of proportion, Greg. I see the concern as very justified. In fact, I think that even MORE concern is justified than we see expressed. >There's so much FUD about it that you'd think somebody has a hidden >agenda. Well, you might say that the GPL has a "hidden" agenda, in that its purpose is to destroy commercial software. While it's true that many who place their code under the GPL do not share this goal, this is its effect. (It's sort of like a virus. You don't have to MEAN to get the next person sick to do so.) We're still at the beginning of the learning curve, so we haven't seen the full impact yet. But the phenomenon is about to pass the "tipping point" -- the point where the effects are tough to reverse even though they're just beginning to be felt. I realize that not everyone agrees with this prediction, but to me at least the pattern is striking and extremely clear. I think that it's very important that we resist the GPL -- born of spite and popularized by sheer accident -- before we REALLY start to see negative effects. --Brett Glass "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 22:23:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA20083 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:23:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA20074 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:23:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00820; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:23:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990207222311.B706@mooseriver.com> Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:23:11 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Das Devaraj Cc: announce@bafug.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, eric@transbay.net Subject: Re: Berkeley BAFUG Meetings, Part II Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990205070131.A27432@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Das Devaraj on Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 10:00:14PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 10:00:14PM -0800, Das Devaraj wrote: > On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > I cast the first vote for the 4th Thursday > > of each month which means our first meeting will be on March 25th. > > Is there any particular reason that it has to be on Thursday > only? There may be other people (like me) who may find any > Thursday difficult to attend. > > Since we already have one meeting on Thursday (SF group), > why don't we have the Berkeley one on any other day? > Say Wednesday or Tuesday of the last week of the month. > > It is generous of Transbay to let us hold meetings there. > But it will be cool to hold these meetings at UC Berkeley > itself. After all, Linux folks do that. (Now that I am on > a roll with suggestions) please consider having a different > format from the SF group. Might bring some new people in. Also, if you have any suggestion on the format of the meeting, please let us know. I am always interested in anything that might improve BAFUG. See you at the meeting. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 22:38:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA22390 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:38:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA22385 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:38:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA42408; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:36:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902080636.WAA42408@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass cc: Greg Lehey , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:21:07 MST." <4.1.19990207230639.009284c0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:36:06 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nice explanation of GPL's intent. I just call the intent the commodification of the software business 8) The Coda team has a problem with business making money off their research hence they opted for the GPL licensing scheme. In fact , according to their leader he thinks it is unfair --- well that is all I remember when this issue last came up . What I wonder if it is okay to distribute a kernel module with a given licensing scheme then all of the sudden perhaps inspire by fad to switch the licensing scheme specially when it is well known that kernel modules sometimes are decided to be included in a distribution due to their licensing scheme. Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 22:50:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA23519 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:50:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA23512 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:50:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12612; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:50:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:50:01 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Message-ID: <19990207225001.M27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990208125530.X86778@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19990207230639.009284c0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990207230639.009284c0@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 11:21:07PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 11:21:07PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 12:55 PM 2/8/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > > >There's so much FUD about it that you'd think somebody has a hidden > >agenda. You know, as soon as I read this, the name "Brett Glass" popped into my head. Then, wouldn't you know it, he has to continue his crusade against it, by chiming in as soon as it's mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised, Brett, if you had some scripts set up to ferret out every instance of "GPL", "Stallman", and "FSF" on the net and autoreply with a random selection of canned sentences. That's certainly what it seems like. > it's very important that we resist the GPL -- born of spite and > popularized by sheer accident -- before we REALLY start to see > negative effects. Some people don't believe that we will. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter I'm not a COMPLETE idiot! mailto:gsutter@pobox.com Some parts are missing. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 22:55:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24033 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:55:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24027 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:55:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA43085; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:53:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902080653.WAA43085@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Gregory Sutter cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:50:01 PST." <19990207225001.M27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:53:14 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Some people don't believe that we will. Curious are you a programmer ? Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 22:56:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA24207 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:56:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA24202 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:56:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA12776; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:56:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 22:56:40 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Message-ID: <19990207225640.N27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <19990207225001.M27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <199902080653.WAA43085@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <199902080653.WAA43085@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 10:53:14PM -0800 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 10:53:14PM -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Some people don't believe that we will. > > Curious are you a programmer ? I program some, but not at the level that many others do. I'm not very good yet. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Failing sardine factory cans employees! mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 23:09:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25416 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:09:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25398 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:09:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA07811; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:09:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:09:14 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199902080709.XAA07811@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <199902080636.WAA42408.kithrup.freebsd.chat@rah.star-gate.com> References: Your message of "Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:21:07 MST." <4.1.19990207230639.009284c0@mail.lariat.org> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <199902080636.WAA42408.kithrup.freebsd.chat@rah.star-gate.com> you write: >What I wonder if it is okay to distribute a kernel module with >a given licensing scheme then all of the sudden perhaps inspire >by fad to switch the licensing scheme specially when it is well >known that kernel modules sometimes are decided to be included >in a distribution due to their licensing scheme. Last time I checked, the kernel code was not going under the GPL, and, in fact, the Coda team had expressed willingess to assign copyright of those modules to the NetBSD/FreeBSD/whatever project. Did that change, or did you not bother to find out what the actual license terms were and just made a knee-jerk reaction? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 23:37:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA27676 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:37:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27671 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:37:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA46976; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:35:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902080735.XAA46976@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Sean Eric Fagan cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:09:14 PST." <199902080709.XAA07811@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 07 Feb 1999 23:35:51 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, what do you know the kernel modules are not covered by GPL and thats good news ! Here is their current license file: Coda is distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License, as shown below. Certain modules of Coda that may be useful independently as libraries are distributed under the terms of the less restrictive GNU Library General Public License, also shown below. The copyright notice at the beginning of each source file indicates the applicable license. Note that GPL and LGPL shown below are copyrighted by the Free Software Foundation, but the instances of the code they refer to in Coda is copyrighted by Carnegie Mellon University and/or other technical contributors. M. Satyanarayanan School of Computer Science Carnegie Mellon University December 1998 Notes: Our intent is that code which is a derivative work of this distribution be covered by the GPL. At the same time, we wish to allow creation of proprietary system components that are written to external interfaces in Coda so long as such proprietary code is written independent of this distribution. As explained below, examples of such interfaces include the client-server RPC interface, the kernel-Venus interface, and the ioctl interface used to Venus. 1. Each file will say what its license is. The libbase, LWP, RPC2 and RVM subsystems come under the LGPL. All files defining RPC interfaces, such as those used by cache manager, volume utilities and other utilities are LGPL'd. This allows you, for example, to build a proprietary cache manager using this interface. Most of these interfaces are defined in the coda-src/vicedep directory. 2. The use of the kernel interfaces is considered ordinary use of the system, so, for example, the ioctl's used in repair can be used by any software not withstanding its license. Similarly using the network and kernel interfaces in the cache manager and file servers is considered ordinary use of the system. So, for example, it is possible to write proprietary kernel code which uses those interfaces when you port Coda to a new operating system. 3. A very limited number of files describe the interface between the kernel and the cache manager, e.g. kernel-src/vfs/includes/coda.h. This file is shared by the kernel code and the user level components and you may distribute this file under the under the BSD-style license included in that file in this distribution or the LGPL at your discretion. If you have questions, please contact us at coda@cs.cmu.edu. --------------- GNU GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE --------------- Version 2, June 1991 Copyright (C) 1989, 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed. Preamble The licenses for most software are designed to take away your freedom to share and change it. By contrast, the GNU General Public License is intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change free software--to make sure the software is free for all its users. This General Public License applies to most of the Free Software Foundation's software and to any other program whose authors commit to using it. (Some other Free Software Foundation software is covered by the GNU Library General Public License instead.) You can apply it to your programs, too. When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price. Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for this service if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs; and that you know you can do these things. To protect your rights, we need to make restrictions that forbid anyone to deny you these rights or to ask you to surrender the rights. These restrictions translate to certain responsibilities for you if you distribute copies of the software, or if you modify it. For example, if you distribute copies of such a program, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that you have. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights. We protect your rights with two steps: (1) copyright the software, and (2) offer you this license which gives you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify the software. Also, for each author's protection and ours, we want to make certain that everyone understands that there is no warranty for this free software. If the software is modified by someone else and passed on, we want its recipients to know that what they have is not the original, so that any problems introduced by others will not reflect on the original authors' reputations. Finally, any free program is threatened constantly by software patents. We wish to avoid the danger that redistributors of a free program will individually obtain patent licenses, in effect making the program proprietary. To prevent this, we have made it clear that any patent must be licensed for everyone's free use or not licensed at all. The precise terms and conditions for copying, distribution and modification follow. TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION 0. This License applies to any program or other work which contains a notice placed by the copyright holder saying it may be distributed under the terms of this General Public License. The "Program", below, refers to any such program or work, and a "work based on the Program" means either the Program or any derivative work under copyright law: that is to say, a work containing the Program or a portion of it, either verbatim or with modifications and/or translated into another language. (Hereinafter, translation is included without limitation in the term "modification".) Each licensee is addressed as "you". Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what the Program does. 1. You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Program's source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate copyright notice and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact all the notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty; and give any other recipients of the Program a copy of this License along with the Program. You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, and you may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange for a fee. 2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Program or any portion of it, thus forming a work based on the Program, and copy and distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1 above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions: * a) You must cause the modified files to carry prominent notices stating that you changed the files and the date of any change. * b) You must cause any work that you distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License. * c) If the modified program normally reads commands interactively when run, you must cause it, when started running for such interactive use in the most ordinary way, to print or display an announcement including an appropriate copyright notice and a notice that there is no warranty (or else, saying that you provide a warranty) and that users may redistribute the program under these conditions, and telling the user how to view a copy of this License. (Exception: if the Program itself is interactive but does not normally print such an announcement, your work based on the Program is not required to print an announcement.) These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Program, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Program, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it. Thus, it is not the intent of this section to claim rights or contest your rights to work written entirely by you; rather, the intent is to exercise the right to control the distribution of derivative or collective works based on the Program. In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Program with the Program (or with a work based on the Program) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License. 3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following: * a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, * b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, * c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.) The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable. However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable. If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering access to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the source code from the same place counts as distribution of the source code, even though third parties are not compelled to copy the source along with the object code. 4. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, or distribute the Program except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense or distribute the Program is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such parties remain in full compliance. 5. You are not required to accept this License, since you have not signed it. However, nothing else grants you permission to modify or distribute the Program or its derivative works. These actions are prohibited by law if you do not accept this License. Therefore, by modifying or distributing the Program (or any work based on the Program), you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so, and all its terms and conditions for copying, distributing or modifying the Program or works based on it. 6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to these terms and conditions. You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. You are not responsible for enforcing compliance by third parties to this License. 7. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program. If any portion of this section is held invalid or unenforceable under any particular circumstance, the balance of the section is intended to apply and the section as a whole is intended to apply in other circumstances. It is not the purpose of this section to induce you to infringe any patents or other property right claims or to contest validity of any such claims; this section has the sole purpose of protecting the integrity of the free software distribution system, which is implemented by public license practices. Many people have made generous contributions to the wide range of software distributed through that system in reliance on consistent application of that system; it is up to the author/donor to decide if he or she is willing to distribute software through any other system and a licensee cannot impose that choice. This section is intended to make thoroughly clear what is believed to be a consequence of the rest of this License. 8. If the distribution and/or use of the Program is restricted in certain countries either by patents or by copyrighted interfaces, the original copyright holder who places the Program under this License may add an explicit geographical distribution limitation excluding those countries, so that distribution is permitted only in or among countries not thus excluded. In such case, this License incorporates the limitation as if written in the body of this License. 9. The Free Software Foundation may publish revised and/or new versions of the General Public License from time to time. Such new versions will be similar in spirit to the present version, but may differ in detail to address new problems or concerns. Each version is given a distinguishing version number. If the Program specifies a version number of this License which applies to it and "any later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions either of that version or of any later version published by the Free Software Foundation. If the Program does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software Foundation. 10. If you wish to incorporate parts of the Program into other free programs whose distribution conditions are different, write to the author to ask for permission. For software which is copyrighted by the Free Software Foundation, write to the Free Software Foundation; we sometimes make exceptions for this. Our decision will be guided by the two goals of preserving the free status of all derivatives of our free software and of promoting the sharing and reuse of software generally. NO WARRANTY 11. BECAUSE THE PROGRAM IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE PROGRAM, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES PROVIDE THE PROGRAM "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE PROGRAM IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE PROGRAM PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION. 12. IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW OR AGREED TO IN WRITING WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR REDISTRIBUTE THE PROGRAM AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES, INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE PROGRAM (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE PROGRAM TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER PROGRAMS), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. END OF TERMS AND CONDITIONS --------------- GNU LIBRARY GENERAL PUBLIC LICENSE ------------- Version 2, June 1991 Copyright (C) 1991 Free Software Foundation, Inc. 59 Temple Place - Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this license document, but changing it is not allowed. [This is the first released version of the library GPL. It is numbered 2 because it goes with version 2 of the ordinary GPL.] Preamble The licenses for most software are designed to take away your freedom to share and change it. By contrast, the GNU General Public Licenses are intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change free software--to make sure the software is free for all its users. This license, the Library General Public License, applies to some specially designated Free Software Foundation software, and to any other libraries whose authors decide to use it. You can use it for your libraries, too. When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price. Our General Public Licenses are designed to make sure that you have the freedom to distribute copies of free software (and charge for this service if you wish), that you receive source code or can get it if you want it, that you can change the software or use pieces of it in new free programs; and that you know you can do these things. To protect your rights, we need to make restrictions that forbid anyone to deny you these rights or to ask you to surrender the rights. These restrictions translate to certain responsibilities for you if you distribute copies of the library, or if you modify it. For example, if you distribute copies of the library, whether gratis or for a fee, you must give the recipients all the rights that we gave you. You must make sure that they, too, receive or can get the source code. If you link a program with the library, you must provide complete object files to the recipients so that they can relink them with the library, after making changes to the library and recompiling it. And you must show them these terms so they know their rights. Our method of protecting your rights has two steps: (1) copyright the library, and (2) offer you this license which gives you legal permission to copy, distribute and/or modify the library. Also, for each distributor's protection, we want to make certain that everyone understands that there is no warranty for this free library. If the library is modified by someone else and passed on, we want its recipients to know that what they have is not the original version, so that any problems introduced by others will not reflect on the original authors' reputations. Finally, any free program is threatened constantly by software patents. We wish to avoid the danger that companies distributing free software will individually obtain patent licenses, thus in effect transforming the program into proprietary software. To prevent this, we have made it clear that any patent must be licensed for everyone's free use or not licensed at all. Most GNU software, including some libraries, is covered by the ordinary GNU General Public License, which was designed for utility programs. This license, the GNU Library General Public License, applies to certain designated libraries. This license is quite different from the ordinary one; be sure to read it in full, and don't assume that anything in it is the same as in the ordinary license. The reason we have a separate public license for some libraries is that they blur the distinction we usually make between modifying or adding to a program and simply using it. Linking a program with a library, without changing the library, is in some sense simply using the library, and is analogous to running a utility program or application program. However, in a textual and legal sense, the linked executable is a combined work, a derivative of the original library, and the ordinary General Public License treats it as such. Because of this blurred distinction, using the ordinary General Public License for libraries did not effectively promote software sharing, because most developers did not use the libraries. We concluded that weaker conditions might promote sharing better. However, unrestricted linking of non-free programs would deprive the users of those programs of all benefit from the free status of the libraries themselves. This Library General Public License is intended to permit developers of non-free programs to use free libraries, while preserving your freedom as a user of such programs to change the free libraries that are incorporated in them. (We have not seen how to achieve this as regards changes in header files, but we have achieved it as regards changes in the actual functions of the Library.) The hope is that this will lead to faster development of free libraries. The precise terms and conditions for copying, distribution and modification follow. Pay close attention to the difference between a "work based on the library" and a "work that uses the library". The former contains code derived from the library, while the latter only works together with the library. Note that it is possible for a library to be covered by the ordinary General Public License rather than by this special one. TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING, DISTRIBUTION AND MODIFICATION 0. This License Agreement applies to any software library which contains a notice placed by the copyright holder or other authorized party saying it may be distributed under the terms of this Library General Public License (also called "this License"). Each licensee is addressed as "you". A "library" means a collection of software functions and/or data prepared so as to be conveniently linked with application programs (which use some of those functions and data) to form executables. The "Library", below, refers to any such software library or work which has been distributed under these terms. A "work based on the Library" means either the Library or any derivative work under copyright law: that is to say, a work containing the Library or a portion of it, either verbatim or with modifications and/or translated straightforwardly into another language. (Hereinafter, translation is included without limitation in the term "modification".) "Source code" for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. For a library, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the library. Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running a program using the Library is not restricted, and output from such a program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the Library (independent of the use of the Library in a tool for writing it). Whether that is true depends on what the Library does and what the program that uses the Library does. 1. You may copy and distribute verbatim copies of the Library's complete source code as you receive it, in any medium, provided that you conspicuously and appropriately publish on each copy an appropriate copyright notice and disclaimer of warranty; keep intact all the notices that refer to this License and to the absence of any warranty; and distribute a copy of this License along with the Library. You may charge a fee for the physical act of transferring a copy, and you may at your option offer warranty protection in exchange for a fee. 2. You may modify your copy or copies of the Library or any portion of it, thus forming a work based on the Library, and copy and distribute such modifications or work under the terms of Section 1 above, provided that you also meet all of these conditions: * a) The modified work must itself be a software library. * b) You must cause the files modified to carry prominent notices stating that you changed the files and the date of any change. * c) You must cause the whole of the work to be licensed at no charge to all third parties under the terms of this License. * d) If a facility in the modified Library refers to a function or a table of data to be supplied by an application program that uses the facility, other than as an argument passed when the facility is invoked, then you must make a good faith effort to ensure that, in the event an application does not supply such function or table, the facility still operates, and performs whatever part of its purpose remains meaningful. (For example, a function in a library to compute square roots has a purpose that is entirely well-defined independent of the application. Therefore, Subsection 2d requires that any application-supplied function or table used by this function must be optional: if the application does not supply it, the square root function must still compute square roots.) These requirements apply to the modified work as a whole. If identifiable sections of that work are not derived from the Library, and can be reasonably considered independent and separate works in themselves, then this License, and its terms, do not apply to those sections when you distribute them as separate works. But when you distribute the same sections as part of a whole which is a work based on the Library, the distribution of the whole must be on the terms of this License, whose permissions for other licensees extend to the entire whole, and thus to each and every part regardless of who wrote it. Thus, it is not the intent of this section to claim rights or contest your rights to work written entirely by you; rather, the intent is to exercise the right to control the distribution of derivative or collective works based on the Library. In addition, mere aggregation of another work not based on the Library with the Library (or with a work based on the Library) on a volume of a storage or distribution medium does not bring the other work under the scope of this License. 3. You may opt to apply the terms of the ordinary GNU General Public License instead of this License to a given copy of the Library. To do this, you must alter all the notices that refer to this License, so that they refer to the ordinary GNU General Public License, version 2, instead of to this License. (If a newer version than version 2 of the ordinary GNU General Public License has appeared, then you can specify that version instead if you wish.) Do not make any other change in these notices. Once this change is made in a given copy, it is irreversible for that copy, so the ordinary GNU General Public License applies to all subsequent copies and derivative works made from that copy. This option is useful when you wish to copy part of the code of the Library into a program that is not a library. 4. You may copy and distribute the Library (or a portion or derivative of it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange. If distribution of object code is made by offering access to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the source code from the same place satisfies the requirement to distribute the source code, even though third parties are not compelled to copy the source along with the object code. 5. A program that contains no derivative of any portion of the Library, but is designed to work with the Library by being compiled or linked with it, is called a "work that uses the Library". Such a work, in isolation, is not a derivative work of the Library, and therefore falls outside the scope of this License. However, linking a "work that uses the Library" with the Library creates an executable that is a derivative of the Library (because it contains portions of the Library), rather than a "work that uses the library". The executable is therefore covered by this License. Section 6 states terms for distribution of such executables. When a "work that uses the Library" uses material from a header file that is part of the Library, the object code for the work may be a derivative work of the Library even though the source code is not. Whether this is true is especially significant if the work can be linked without the Library, or if the work is itself a library. The threshold for this to be true is not precisely defined by law. If such an object file uses only numerical parameters, data structure layouts and accessors, and small macros and small inline functions (ten lines or less in length), then the use of the object file is unrestricted, regardless of whether it is legally a derivative work. (Executables containing this object code plus portions of the Library will still fall under Section 6.) Otherwise, if the work is a derivative of the Library, you may distribute the object code for the work under the terms of Section 6. Any executables containing that work also fall under Section 6, whether or not they are linked directly with the Library itself. 6. As an exception to the Sections above, you may also compile or link a "work that uses the Library" with the Library to produce a work containing portions of the Library, and distribute that work under terms of your choice, provided that the terms permit modification of the work for the customer's own use and reverse engineering for debugging such modifications. You must give prominent notice with each copy of the work that the Library is used in it and that the Library and its use are covered by this License. You must supply a copy of this License. If the work during execution displays copyright notices, you must include the copyright notice for the Library among them, as well as a reference directing the user to the copy of this License. Also, you must do one of these things: * a) Accompany the work with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code for the Library including whatever changes were used in the work (which must be distributed under Sections 1 and 2 above); and, if the work is an executable linked with the Library, with the complete machine-readable "work that uses the Library", as object code and/or source code, so that the user can modify the Library and then relink to produce a modified executable containing the modified Library. (It is understood that the user who changes the contents of definitions files in the Library will not necessarily be able to recompile the application to use the modified definitions.) * b) Accompany the work with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give the same user the materials specified in Subsection 6a, above, for a charge no more than the cost of performing this distribution. * c) If distribution of the work is made by offering access to copy from a designated place, offer equivalent access to copy the above specified materials from the same place. * d) Verify that the user has already received a copy of these materials or that you have already sent this user a copy. For an executable, the required form of the "work that uses the Library" must include any data and utility programs needed for reproducing the executable from it. However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable. It may happen that this requirement contradicts the license restrictions of other proprietary libraries that do not normally accompany the operating system. Such a contradiction means you cannot use both them and the Library together in an executable that you distribute. 7. You may place library facilities that are a work based on the Library side-by-side in a single library together with other library facilities not covered by this License, and distribute such a combined library, provided that the separate distribution of the work based on the Library and of the other library facilities is otherwise permitted, and provided that you do these two things: * a) Accompany the combined library with a copy of the same work based on the Library, uncombined with any other library facilities. This must be distributed under the terms of the Sections above. * b) Give prominent notice with the combined library of the fact that part of it is a work based on the Library, and explaining where to find the accompanying uncombined form of the same work. 8. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, link with, or distribute the Library except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense, link with, or distribute the Library is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such parties remain in full compliance. 9. You are not required to accept this License, since you have not signed it. However, nothing else grants you permission to modify or distribute the Library or its derivative works. These actions are prohibited by law if you do not accept this License. Therefore, by modifying or distributing the Library (or any work based on the Library), you indicate your acceptance of this License to do so, and all its terms and conditions for copying, distributing or modifying the Library or works based on it. 10. Each time you redistribute the Library (or any work based on the Library), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor to copy, distribute, link with or modify the Library subject to these terms and conditions. You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. You are not responsible for enforcing compliance by third parties to this License. 11. If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Library at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Library by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Library. If any portion of this section is held invalid or unenforceable under any particular circumstance, the balance of the section is intended to apply, and the section as a whole is intended to apply in other circumstances. It is not the purpose of this section to induce you to infringe any patents or other property right claims or to contest validity of any such claims; this section has the sole purpose of protecting the integrity of the free software distribution system which is implemented by public license practices. Many people have made generous contributions to the wide range of software distributed through that system in reliance on consistent application of that system; it is up to the author/donor to decide if he or she is willing to distribute software through any other system and a licensee cannot impose that choice. This section is intended to make thoroughly clear what is believed to be a consequence of the rest of this License. 12. If the distribution and/or use of the Library is restricted in certain countries either by patents or by copyrighted interfaces, the original copyright holder who places the Library under this License may add an explicit geographical distribution limitation excluding those countries, so that distribution is permitted only in or among countries not thus excluded. In such case, this License incorporates the limitation as if written in the body of this License. 13. The Free Software Foundation may publish revised and/or new versions of the Library General Public License from time to time. Such new versions will be similar in spirit to the present version, but may differ in detail to address new problems or concerns. Each version is given a distinguishing version number. If the Library specifies a version number of this License which applies to it and "any later version", you have the option of following the terms and conditions either of that version or of any later version published by the Free Software Foundation. If the Library does not specify a license version number, you may choose any version ever published by the Free Software Foundation. 14. If you wish to incorporate parts of the Library into other free programs whose distribution conditions are incompatible with these, write to the author to ask for permission. For software which is copyrighted by the Free Software Foundation, write to the Free Software Foundation; we sometimes make exceptions for this. Our decision will be guided by the two goals of preserving the free status of all derivatives of our free software and of promoting the sharing and reuse of software generally. NO WARRANTY 15. BECAUSE THE LIBRARY IS LICENSED FREE OF CHARGE, THERE IS NO WARRANTY FOR THE LIBRARY, TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW. EXCEPT WHEN OTHERWISE STATED IN WRITING THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND/OR OTHER PARTIES PROVIDE THE LIBRARY "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. THE ENTIRE RISK AS TO THE QUALITY AND PERFORMANCE OF THE LIBRARY IS WITH YOU. SHOULD THE LIBRARY PROVE DEFECTIVE, YOU ASSUME THE COST OF ALL NECESSARY SERVICING, REPAIR OR CORRECTION. 16. IN NO EVENT UNLESS REQUIRED BY APPLICABLE LAW OR AGREED TO IN WRITING WILL ANY COPYRIGHT HOLDER, OR ANY OTHER PARTY WHO MAY MODIFY AND/OR REDISTRIBUTE THE LIBRARY AS PERMITTED ABOVE, BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR DAMAGES, INCLUDING ANY GENERAL, SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES ARISING OUT OF THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE THE LIBRARY (INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO LOSS OF DATA OR DATA BEING RENDERED INACCURATE OR LOSSES SUSTAINED BY YOU OR THIRD PARTIES OR A FAILURE OF THE LIBRARY TO OPERATE WITH ANY OTHER SOFTWARE), EVEN IF SUCH HOLDER OR OTHER PARTY HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. END OF TERMS AND CONDITIONS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 7 23:41:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA28203 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:41:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (sgi-b.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.27] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA28198 for ; Sun, 7 Feb 1999 23:41:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-216-76-138-167.ath.bellsouth.net [216.76.138.167]) by mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA28787; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 02:41:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA03440; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 02:58:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: gsutter@pobox.com Cc: pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New CODA release In-Reply-To: Your message of "Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:28:48 -0800" <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990208025857M.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 02:58:57 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 61 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Gregory Sutter Subject: Re: New CODA release Date: Sun, 7 Feb 1999 16:28:48 -0800 > On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 06:00:53PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > > > > > > Whiner. You don't like it, go write your own. > > > > Ohh.. so everyone that doesn't like GPL is a whiner nowadays...The nice > > No, the guy that was whining was a whiner. The coders of Coda made up > their minds to go with the GPL. The whining guy didn't try to > influence their decision, didn't present new reasons why Coda shouldn't > be GPLed, but was just bitching and moaning about it. That's fine, but > then if Sean wants to call him a whiner, he won't be far off. Pedro has made quite a few useful contributions to the ports collection, one of which became a toolchain used in the successful development of several large software projects here last year. He's not, by a far stretch, a do-nothing whiner. I always thought that the negative smiley :-( indicates a sense of sadness. I don't know of one indicating that one is whining. I'm sad about the CODA decision too and regret that we cannot consider using it here in a major project underway, per corporate legal counsel. As far as I recall, there wasn't much opportunity to lobby against the licensing changes, but you are correct, it *is* their code to license as they wish. Their reasons given for the change didn't convince me, but I doubt they care very much about that either. Also, there exists an exemption from GPL for grandfathered kernel code right? Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net > > > thing of a filesystem like CODA would be being able to use it with a LOT > > of platforms (yes, including commercial ones with expensive suport) > > without the license getting in your way. > > Yes, it would be nice. No, it won't happen in commercial systems > unless the Coda people can be convinced to either not use the GPL or > provide an alternative licensing scheme. That's life. > > Greg > -- > Gregory S. Sutter If I had finished this sentence > mailto:gsutter@pobox.com > http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ > PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 00:18:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01509 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:18:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01501 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:18:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01135; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:18:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990208001810.A1125@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:18:10 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: announce@bafug.org Subject: Feb. BAFUG Meeting (Second Notice) Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- BAFUG -- The Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, February 11th. This months meeting will be held at The Silicon Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> Jordan K. Hubbard will be giving a post-"State of the Union" talk. This talk will most likely include a discussion of the release of 3.0, the move to ELF, the start of the 3.X branch, and the possible inclusion of IPv6 into 3.1. Of course we will have our famous "Ask Jordan" session. ==> Nicole Harrington and Josef Grosch will talk about their plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on February 20th at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Oakland Convention Center. We will also be holding our traditional Install-A-Thon at the Cow Place in Daly City. The date for this show is February 27th. This Install-A-Thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux). See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> Julian Elischer will give a talk on his work with Netgraph. ==> bafug.org is off and running! Thanks to Jan Koum and Nicole Harrington. The FreeBSD Retail page and Counter page have been moved to this site. Suggestions are welcome. ==> Thanks for all the donations of hardware to build BAFUG scratch machine for use at the Install-a-thons. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at the Silicon Reef in San Francisco. The Silicon Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By Muni: Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights stop nearby. By BART: Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, on the right (south) side. By Car: From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.reef.com http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before February 11th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 00:22:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA01803 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:22:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA01798 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:22:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13620; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:21:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:21:41 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New CODA release Message-ID: <19990208002141.O27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <19990208025857M.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <19990208025857M.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net>; from W Gerald Hicks on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 02:58:57AM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 02:58:57AM -0500, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > Pedro has made quite a few useful contributions to the ports collection, > one of which became a toolchain used in the successful development of > several large software projects here last year. > > He's not, by a far stretch, a do-nothing whiner. One who whines is a whiner. I never said, and don't intend to say, that Pedro is do-nothing. Nor is Pedro a whiner in any given situation, only in this one, and even that only in my opinion. Please don't blow my words out of proportion. > I'm sad about the CODA decision too and regret that we cannot consider > using it here in a major project underway, per corporate legal counsel. Well, there is nothing that says that they can't license the software specifically to your company. Why don't you ask them about the terms of such a license? > Also, there exists an exemption from GPL for grandfathered kernel > code right? The kernel code isn't GPLed. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter I got a Pentium II for my girlfriend. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com Good trade, eh? http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 00:31:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA02803 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:31:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA02791 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:31:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA19342; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:26:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from s204m82.isp.whistle.com(207.76.204.82) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpdf19340; Mon Feb 8 08:26:26 1999 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:26:06 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer X-Sender: julian@s204m82.isp.whistle.com To: announce@bafug.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Feb. BAFUG Meeting (Second Notice) In-Reply-To: <19990208001810.A1125@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group > -- BAFUG -- > > > The Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly > meeting on Thursday, February 11th. This months meeting will be held at The > Silicon Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will > start at 7:30 pm. > > > Agenda: > ==> Jordan K. Hubbard will be giving a post-"State of the Union" > talk. This talk will most likely include a discussion of the > release of 3.0, the move to ELF, the start of the 3.X branch, and > the possible inclusion of IPv6 into 3.1. Of course we will have our > famous "Ask Jordan" session. > > ==> Nicole Harrington and Josef Grosch will talk about their plans for > the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on February 20th at the > Robert Austin Computer show at the Oakland Convention Center. We will > also be holding our traditional Install-A-Thon at the Cow Place in > Daly City. The date for this show is February 27th. This > Install-A-Thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux > Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux). See > > http://www.bafug.org/Install.html > > for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow > Palace. > > ==> Julian Elischer will give a talk on his work with Netgraph. > > ==> bafug.org is off and running! Thanks to Jan Koum and Nicole > Harrington. The FreeBSD Retail page and Counter page have been > moved to this site. Suggestions are welcome. > > ==> Thanks for all the donations of hardware to build BAFUG scratch > machine for use at the Install-a-thons. I thought that was what the IJ was for?.. portable ftp server.. > > ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. > > ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics > > > Location: > This months meeting will be held at the Silicon Reef in San Francisco. > The Silicon Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison > Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. > > > Time: > The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The > meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so > to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. > > > Directions: > > By Muni: > Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights > stop nearby. > > By BART: > Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning > left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, > on the right (south) side. > > By Car: > From the South Bay and Peninsula > Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn > left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed > eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa > dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th > Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. > > From the East Bay: > Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th > street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine > blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes > under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed > about one full block, and park where you can. > > From the North Bay: > Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into > Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van > Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. > > > WWW info: > More info can be found at the following URLs > > http://www.reef.com > http://www.bafug.org > > > Contact: > Please contact either Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before > February 11th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and > coffee we will need. > > Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com > Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com > > > > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > > ## This is the BAFUG Announce List ## > ** To subscribe or unsubscribe send comands to majordomo@bafug.org ** > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 00:43:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04107 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:43:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04100 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:43:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA03870; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:43:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990208004330.A3845@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 00:43:30 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Julian Elischer , announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Feb. BAFUG Meeting (Second Notice) Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990208001810.A1125@mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Julian Elischer on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 12:26:06AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 12:26:06AM -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > [ DELETED ] > > ==> Thanks for all the donations of hardware to build BAFUG scratch > > machine for use at the Install-a-thons. > > I thought that was what the IJ was for?.. portable ftp server.. [ DELETED ] Yes, you are correct. Thanks for catching that. Just slipped my mind. I'll send out a corrected notice in the next few minutes. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 01:10:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA07293 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:10:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA07285 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:09:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04031; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:09:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990208010950.A3950@mooseriver.com> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:09:50 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: (CORRECTION) Feb. BAFUG Meeting (second notice) Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- BAFUG -- The Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, February 11th. This months meeting will be held at The Silicon Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> Jordan K. Hubbard will be giving a post-"State of the Union" talk. This talk will most likely include a discussion of the release of 3.0, the move to ELF, the start of the 3.X branch, and the possible inclusion of IPv6 into 3.1. Of course we will have our famous "Ask Jordan" session. ==> Nicole Harrington and Josef Grosch will talk about their plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on February 20th at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Oakland Convention Center. We will also be holding our traditional Install-A-Thon at the Cow Place in Daly City. The date for this show is February 27th. This Install-A-Thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux). See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> Julian Elischer will give a talk on his work with Netgraph. ==> bafug.org is off and running! Thanks to Jan Koum and Nicole Harrington. The FreeBSD Retail page and Counter page have been moved to this site. Suggestions are welcome. ==> Thanks for all the donations of hardware to build BAFUG display & demo machine for use at the Install-a-thons. A big thanks to Whistle Communications for providing us with a very long term loan of a Whistle Interjet for us to use as an FTP server at our Install-A-Thons. Whistle Communications can be found at www.whistle.com ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at the Silicon Reef in San Francisco. The Silicon Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By Muni: Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights stop nearby. By BART: Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, on the right (south) side. By Car: From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.reef.com http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before February 11th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com $Id: Feb99Announce.txt,v 1.4 1999/02/08 08:56:01 jgrosch Exp $ -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 01:35:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10226 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:35:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10219 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:35:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15116; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:35:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:35:08 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Message-ID: <19990208013508.E27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990208125530.X86778@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <19990208125530.X86778@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 12:55:30PM +1030 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 12:55:30PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Sunday, 7 February 1999 at 20:29:16 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > > > -Commercial distributions don't like to be forced to carry sources for > > parts of their OS. That's of course part of the success of X and many > > BSD tools. I haven't heard of any commercial UNIX bundling gcc yet.. > > It was the standard compiler for OSF/1, so there's a good chance it is > for Digital UNIX as well. And there's nothing in the GPL that says It's not anymore, but you've made your point. thisbox gsutter ~ $uname -a OSF1 thisbox.here.com V4.0 464 alpha thisbox gsutter ~ $which cc /usr/bin/cc thisbox gsutter ~ $cc -V cc (cc) Digital UNIX Compiler Driver 3.11 DEC C V5.2-038 on Digital UNIX V4.0 (Rev. 464) Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Failing sardine factory cans employees! mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 01:37:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA10540 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:37:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA10535 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:37:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15151; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:36:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 01:36:07 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New CODA release Message-ID: <19990208013607.F27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co>; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 08:29:16PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 08:29:16PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > - From an economical point of view, the GPL has a negative effect over > capitalism, and will eventually have some effect on employment (I'm not > kidding, I'll have to write a dissertation about this, but I haven't > found the time). The BSD license doesn't have this effect. I don't think it will have a negative effect on employment. We'll just have to redefine employment to include net-style work. The core team and several others are practically employed for the project anyway, and the license doesn't appear to make a difference, as people do the same thing for other free projects such as Linux and Apache. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter My reality check just bounced. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 03:42:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA21594 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:42:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA21586 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:42:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA09258; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 04:42:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208043419.0460cbe0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:42:44 -0700 To: Gregory Sutter From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Cc: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990207225001.M27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <4.1.19990207230639.009284c0@mail.lariat.org> <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990208125530.X86778@freebie.lemis.com> <4.1.19990207230639.009284c0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:50 PM 2/7/99 -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: >> it's very important that we resist the GPL -- born of spite and >> popularized by sheer accident -- before we REALLY start to see >> negative effects. > >Some people don't believe that we will. You're absolutely entitled to that opinion. I say we're seeing evidence already. What I say is not a "script," however. It's true that I've repeated some of the information about these issues in several forums, but that's because I think the issue is important. I was also one of the first people to detail why I thought Microsoft's anti-competitive practices were harmful and should be curtailed, and met with a similar response. (This was before the days when Internet access was common; it happened on CompuServe.) Again, you're entitled to disagree. But please do consider what I say not as a matter of "religion" but as a cool, reasoned view from someone who makes his predictions very carefully and after a LOT of consideration. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 03:49:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22029 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:49:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA22024 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:49:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.nws.net) Received: from pechter.nws.net (bg-tc-ppp721.monmouth.com [209.191.63.157]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id GAA06980; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.nws.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) id GAA03263; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:46:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199902081146.GAA03263@pechter.nws.net> Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208043419.0460cbe0@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Feb 8, 1999 4:42:44 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:46:38 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: pechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 10:50 PM 2/7/99 -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > >> it's very important that we resist the GPL -- born of spite and > >> popularized by sheer accident -- before we REALLY start to see > >> negative effects. > > > >Some people don't believe that we will. > > You're absolutely entitled to that opinion. And he's not the only one who agrees with it. > Again, you're entitled to disagree. But please do consider what > I say not as a matter of "religion" but as a cool, reasoned view > from someone who makes his predictions very carefully and after > a LOT of consideration. > > --Brett Unfortunately the DOJ isn't assured of having any effective solution. Microsoft will change only when it's in their own best interests and it makes them more $$$. The GPL will fail to spread only when more people realize it will hurt their freedom and bottom line (personal and corporate). Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 03:54:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA22904 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:54:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA22898 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:54:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA09370; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 04:54:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208044608.00c8a9f0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:54:17 -0700 To: Gregory Sutter , "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: Brett Glass Subject: Effects of the GPL Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990208013607.F27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:36 AM 2/8/99 -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: >On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 08:29:16PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >> >> - From an economical point of view, the GPL has a negative effect over >> capitalism, and will eventually have some effect on employment (I'm not >> kidding, I'll have to write a dissertation about this, but I haven't >> found the time). The BSD license doesn't have this effect. > >I don't think it will have a negative effect on employment. I think it will. The GPL limits opportunities for entrepreneurship, because it's tough to start a company that creates, and profits from, useful software. And it hurts innovation, because inventive programmers can't base their work on what came before and reap the benefits of their additions. Instead, they must reimplement the wheel first. This imposes such a hefty penalty that few will try. Paul Vixie was going to present a talk on this issue at LinuxWorld, but recently cancelled, alas. I was going to fill in, but discovered that the session had been scheduled directly opposite one by Nick Petreley -- Editorial Director of the online LinuxWorld magazine and a key cheerleader for the GPL. I therefore opted out; wrong forum, bad time slot. But I would welcome contributions to an online presentation about the subject. I'd like to call it "The Fortress, the Cathedral, and the Bazaar." Microsoft, of course, would be the Fortress; the theology-motivated FSF (with Linux and the GPL) the Cathedral; and the commercial software world and the BSD movement the Bazaar. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 03:58:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA23279 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:58:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA23271 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 03:58:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA09400; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 04:58:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208045524.00cc3f10@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 04:58:00 -0700 To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902081146.GAA03263@pechter.nws.net> References: <4.1.19990208043419.0460cbe0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:46 AM 2/8/99 -0500, Bill Pechter wrote: >The GPL will fail to spread only when more people realize it will hurt >their freedom and bottom line (personal and corporate). Good point, Bill. But at what point will they realize it? By the time a significant number of people learned the full story about Microsoft, the horse was long out of the barn and the barn had burned nearly to the ground. A whole lot of people had been hurt. Must recognition come only after the phenomenon has run away? Is there a way to sound the alarm sooner? Or is it a lost cause? --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 04:18:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA28105 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 04:18:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (lightgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA28097 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 04:18:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 11061 invoked from network); 8 Feb 1999 12:18:28 -0000 Received: from modem50-mel-isp-6.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.13.51) by lightgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 8 Feb 1999 12:18:28 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA00738; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:20:45 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:20:45 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" Reply-To: "Oben O. Candemir" To: Sue Blake cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Licia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Nicole Harrington , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) In-Reply-To: <19990207222432.36384@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [moved to -chat (from -advocacy)] > > On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 11:21:32AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > On 07-Feb-99 Licia wrote: > > > On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Sue Blake wrote: > > >> On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 11:17:06PM -0600, Licia wrote: > > > > >> > (laughing) Ok, where does that leave -gay- women? :) > > > > >> Attracted to FreeBSD? :-) > > > > > ahh... that's why I like FreeBSD so much? > > > > > > (digging through /usr/src/ looking for the #include > > > statements!) > > > > *cough, choke, laugh* > [SNIP] > > Meanwhile, it looks like a larger than expected proportion of us, > regardless of gender, are united by our mutual interest in women :-) Like I heard on a sitcom once... "I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body" :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 04:21:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA28339 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 04:21:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (darkgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA28334 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 04:21:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 19164 invoked from network); 8 Feb 1999 12:21:15 -0000 Received: from modem50-mel-isp-6.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.13.51) by darkgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 8 Feb 1999 12:21:15 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA00919; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:23:36 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:23:36 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" Reply-To: "Oben O. Candemir" To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: Sue Blake , "Jason C. Wells" , "Jason C. Wells" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Oben O. Candemir" Subject: Re: Sore Support In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I don't know which IRC server you tried, but it's common knowledge that > different IRC networks have different attitudes, my happy go-along style > didn't match EFNet (too 'l33t in my opinion) and DALNet (too restrictive in > some ways), so I ended up on Undernet and have to say that the channels I > frequent there are some of the friendliest I know... > Jeroen, I must agree that the Undernet channel is the finest of the #freebsd bunch. It has great people who genuinely want the OS to go places... OOC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 04:27:15 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA28936 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 04:27:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from one.net.au (lightgrey.one.net.au [203.17.224.212]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA28928 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 04:27:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dunya@one.net.au) Received: (qmail 13805 invoked from network); 8 Feb 1999 12:27:09 -0000 Received: from modem50-mel-isp-6.one.net.au (HELO fireball.2000.com.au) (203.101.13.51) by lightgrey.one.net.au with SMTP; 8 Feb 1999 12:27:09 -0000 Received: from localhost (dunya@localhost) by fireball.2000.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA01216; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:29:30 +1100 (EST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:29:30 +1100 (EST) From: "Oben O. Candemir" Reply-To: "Oben O. Candemir" To: Mike Smith cc: "Oben O. Candemir" , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: Sore Support In-Reply-To: <199902071948.LAA06918@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Mike Smith wrote: > > We carefully note that you are doing a great deal of complaining, but > no actual work. > > Would you care to align youself with the problem, or the solution? > > We'll gladly accept any real effort you care to expend on the Project, > but if call you can do is whine about how someone else isn't doing > what you personally think they should, then you really should just go > and get lost. > > Yes, we need more help. Yes, we know this. No, you're not providing > any. Please recitfy the situation. With all due respect Mike, I'm not a programmer but I do have a modest talent for writing how-to articles and a love for helping people... I have written two articles for the February FreeBSD 'zine. Out now. I think you guys ought to lose some of the 'attitude' and perhaps be more accepting of people who can help in ways other than codin'. There are people smarter and more talented than even you... get used to the idea I say. OOC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 04:37:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA00149 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 04:37:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA00143; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 04:37:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id XAA18805; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:37:25 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990208233720.61928@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:37:21 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: "Oben O. Candemir" Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Licia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Nicole Harrington , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: <19990207222432.36384@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Oben O. Candemir on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:20:45PM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:20:45PM +1100, Oben O. Candemir wrote: > > > [moved to -chat (from -advocacy)] > > > > On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 11:21:32AM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > > On 07-Feb-99 Licia wrote: > > > > On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Sue Blake wrote: > > > >> On Sat, Feb 06, 1999 at 11:17:06PM -0600, Licia wrote: > > > > > > >> > (laughing) Ok, where does that leave -gay- women? :) > > > > > > >> Attracted to FreeBSD? :-) > > > > > > > ahh... that's why I like FreeBSD so much? > > > > > > > > (digging through /usr/src/ looking for the #include > > > > statements!) > > > > > > *cough, choke, laugh* > > > [SNIP] > > > > Meanwhile, it looks like a larger than expected proportion of us, > > regardless of gender, are united by our mutual interest in women :-) > > > Like I heard on a sitcom once... > > "I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body" :) Hmm, you're not gonna find a lesbian who wants someone with a man's body, no matter what's inside it. But don't despair! Given the thousands of men's bodies around here it is highly likely there's another "lesbian trapped in a man's body" who's looking for someone just like you! :-) If I hear of someone else like that I'll send him your way. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 05:15:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA02878 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:15:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA02869 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:15:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.40]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA5161; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:12:40 -0500 Message-ID: <36BEE029.94A6D195@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 08:01:29 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) References: <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990208125530.X86778@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Sunday, 7 February 1999 at 20:29:16 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > Gregory Sutter wrote: > >> > >> On Sun, Feb 07, 1999 at 06:00:53PM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > >>> Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Whiner. You don't like it, go write your own. > >>> > >>> Ohh.. so everyone that doesn't like GPL is a whiner nowadays...The nice > >> > >> No, the guy that was whining was a whiner. The coders of Coda made up > >> their minds to go with the GPL. The whining guy didn't try to > >> influence their decision, didn't present new reasons why Coda shouldn't > >> be GPLed, but was just bitching and moaning about it. That's fine, but > >> then if Sean wants to call him a whiner, he won't be far off. > > > > OK, I didn't bitch and moan so I still don't classify :-)...There was a > > short discussion about it in the coda-announce list, the reason seemed > > pretty stupid to me: > > > > "- Coda is now GPL'd - primarily because we want to indicate that we are > > really an OSS project." > > > > Theo d'Raadt, speaking for OpenBSD _only_ responded: > >> > >> good move -- you've just alienated all the other operating systems and > >> ensured that none of them will ever fully integrate coda into the > >> default install. i bet you'll be seeing freebsd and netbsd deleting > >> coda in the next couple of days, since they have rules against > >> dropping GPL code into their kernel tree. > >> > >> We'll stick with ARLA. It's really _free_ software. > > As you say, Theo was speaking for OpenBSD _only_. He also has a good > understanding of alienating others. > > > Since you wanna hear reasons why it isn't a good idea: > > > > -Commercial distributions don't like to be forced to carry sources for > > parts of their OS. That's of course part of the success of X and many > > BSD tools. I haven't heard of any commercial UNIX bundling gcc yet.. > > It was the standard compiler for OSF/1, so there's a good chance it is > for Digital UNIX as well. And there's nothing in the GPL that says > you must be forced to carry sources, just supply them (for a price > that you can name) if somebody demands them. This means you can say > ``OK, I'll get you the sources for $5000, or you can get them > yourselves for free from ftp.gnu.org''. > Since the redistribution of the source code cannot be limited the only acceptable price is redistribution cost. No one can make money of the development, it's like writing a book so that the published gets rich but you (the author) are left to the good will of the people. BTW, our literature nobel prize is not publishing any of his books in Colombia for this same reason. > > - From an economical point of view, the GPL has a negative effect over > > capitalism, and will eventually have some effect on employment (I'm not > > kidding, I'll have to write a dissertation about this, but I haven't > > found the time). The BSD license doesn't have this effect. > > Why not? In each case, it's free software. And people are making > more money out of GPL software than Berkeley Licence software. > Brett already made a good attempt to explain it. I'll leave this for a paper I'm writing. > Why do so many people blow this GPL issue out of proportion? There's > so much FUD about it that you'd think somebody has a hidden agenda. > It's not evident, that's what makes it so dangerous. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 05:32:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA04995 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:32:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA04985 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:32:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id OAA91215; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:32:01 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Oben O. Candemir" Cc: Mike Smith , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Terry Lambert , "Jason C. Wells" Subject: Re: Sore Support References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Feb 1999 14:32:00 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Oben O. Candemir"'s message of "Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:29:30 +1100 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 23 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Oben O. Candemir" writes: > On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Mike Smith wrote: > > Yes, we need more help. Yes, we know this. No, you're not providing > > any. Please recitfy the situation. > [...] > I think you guys ought to lose some of the 'attitude' and perhaps be more > accepting of people who can help in ways other than codin'. There are > people smarter and more talented than even you... get used to the idea I > say. That is utter bullshit. Go tell the good people on freebsd-doc that we don't respect people who can't code, and watch them laugh in your face. We do not, however, respect people who come out of the blue with no documented experience and tell us how to run our shop. I have yet to see you post something on this (or any) list that isn't venomous or arrogant or both. Show us that you *can* contribute something valuable, *then* come tell us how to do things better. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 05:53:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA06621 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:53:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cons.org (knight.cons.org [194.233.237.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA06614 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 05:53:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@cons.org) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by cons.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id OAA08393 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:53:25 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:53:25 +0100 From: Martin Cracauer To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: 100Mbit ethernet card comparision Message-ID: <19990208145325.A8384@cons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just had three 100MBit/sec ethernet cards in reach and though I could do a little experimenting: Operating Systems: FreeBSD: FreeBSD-current from Jan, 22, 1999 (before 4.0 branch) Linux: 2.2.0-pre9, userland mostly Debian-1.3.1 Ethernet cards: de - DEC 21140 fxp - Intel 82558 rl - Realtek 8139 Machine: Celeron 300A in Asus P2B (BX) at 4.5x83.5MHz Benchmark: Send 1 GB of data over a rsh connection, using cstream (a dd replacement with accurate timing, bandwidth limiting and /dev/null built in), using 8 KB blocks. The CPU numbers are taken from top(1) with a delay of 15 seconds. OS Card MioByte/sec %user %sys %interrupt ---------------------------------------------------------- Linux de 10.93-10.96 3 26-28 - FreeBSD de 10.70-10.72 3 29-31 4-5 FreeBSD fxp 10.66-10.67 3 25-28 5-6 FreeBSD rl 10.55-10.56 3 28-31 14-16 Linux rl 10.85-11.14 3 28-30 - Linux fxp doesn't work The fxp module (eepro100) on Linux loads, but ifconfiging hangs the machine (reset button mode). The de (tulip) driver on Linux needs manual selection of media type, whereas none of the other test combinations did (rl on Linux worked out of the box). Of course, Linux doesn't have section 4 manpages for drivers, so I went through the linux-src/Documentation -> C-source -> Web site mentioned in there cicle as well. And had to specify options at module load time (as compared to anytime with ifconfig under FreeBSD) and had to calculate hex number OR combinations (where FreeBSD has cleartext options). The Intel chip got hot, the Realtek and DEC stayed cool. Well, one intersting question is: Where's that interrupt handler CPU time on Linux? In system CPU time? Hidden? To get a clearer picture, I did a benchmark that approached the question "If two processes compete, and one just consumes userland CPU and the other just tries to TCP stream over a more or less interrupt intensive device, how much CPU does the CPU-intensive process get?" I run a number of dhrystones one after another so that the time for all of them was about 1 min. Just before the first dhrystone starts, the same TCP streaming benchmark as above is being started, and immedeatly after the dhrystones end SIGHUP is sent to the cstream tool, which ends its loop then and reports the throughput. OS/card seconds r/u/s on throughput of on CPU process network process ----------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD/de: 10.36/10.26/0.02 2.10 MioB/sec FreeBSD/de: 10.36/10.26/0.02 2.21 MioB/sec FreeBSD/rl: 10.41/10.24/0.02 0.38 MioB/sec FreeBSD/rl: 10.39/10.24/0.02 0.28 MioB/sec FreeBSD/rl: 10.41/10.24/0.02 0.24 MioB/sec Linux/rl: 27.8/14.7/0.6 8.44 MioB/sec Linux/rl: 22.9/14.4/4.4 6.50 MioB/sec Linux/rl: 26.4/14.7/5.8 7.81 MioB/sec Linux/de: 20.7/14.6/0.9 9.21 MioB/sec Linux/de: 20.5/13.8/1.0 9.14 MioB/sec Linux/de: 21.0/14.2/1.2 9.64 MioB/sec Example read: With rl Ethernet, Linux leaves half the CPU for the CPU intensive process and gets ~8 MB/sec for the networking process, while FreeBSD leaves 99% CPU for the CPU eater and gets 0.25-0.4 MB/sec out of the networking connection. Remark: Don't ask me why a dhrystone takes more CPU on Linux than on FreeBSD. Identical source, gcc-2.7.2.x, timings verified with stopwatch etc. Probably a symbol more in a shared library. It is not a typo that time(1) reports significant system CPU for the dhrystones on some (but not all) of the Linux/rl runs. Definitivly bad accounting here. Quick shot answer: this looks like the time spent in the interrupt handle is being added to unrelated userland processes. Glad I asked: The supposed ninja-macho networker's tool FreeBSD is actually a little slower, while the supposed we-have-more-drivers-and-every-idiot-can-configure-them OS runs on one out of three cards without problems, one with enough digging to drive unconviced people away and crashes on the last. -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ Tel.: (private) +4940 5221829 Fax.: (private) +4940 5228536 Paper: (private) Waldstrasse 200, 22846 Norderstedt, Germany To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 06:34:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12055 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:34:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA12045 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:34:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.2/8.9.2) id QAA29096; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:32:53 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:32:52 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Effects of the GPL Message-ID: <19990208163252.C96974@shale.csir.co.za> References: <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990208013607.F27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <4.1.19990208044608.00c8a9f0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208044608.00c8a9f0@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 04:54:17AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 04:54:17AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Paul Vixie was going to present a talk on this issue at LinuxWorld, > but recently cancelled, alas. I was going to fill in, but discovered > that the session had been scheduled directly opposite one by Nick > Petreley -- Editorial Director of the online LinuxWorld magazine > and a key cheerleader for the GPL. I therefore opted out; wrong > forum, bad time slot. But I would welcome contributions to an > online presentation about the subject. I'd like to call it "The > Fortress, the Cathedral, and the Bazaar." Microsoft, of course, > would be the Fortress; the theology-motivated FSF (with Linux and > the GPL) the Cathedral; and the commercial software world and the > BSD movement the Bazaar. (Using Eric Raymond's terms) It's interesting to note that the Cathedral has no god while the Bazaar seems to have a shrine on every corner... RMS, Linus, ESR, Alan Cox, etc, etc. -Jeremy -- | "I could be anything I wanted to, but one things true --+-- Never gonna be as big as Jesus, never gonna hold the world in my hand | Never gonna be as big as Jesus, never gonna build a promised land | But that's, that's all right, OK with me..." -Audio Adrenaline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 06:38:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA12672 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:38:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA12667 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 06:38:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id IAA11302; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:38:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:38:22 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Brett Glass cc: Greg Lehey , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990207230639.009284c0@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > As for why the GPL is bad for business: it treats business unfairly. > Users can use GPLed software to serve THEIR needs, but commercial > software companies can't use it to fulfill THEIRS. That's the > intent: to drive commercial software companies out of business. That might be RMS' intent, but it sure as hell isn't the intent of most people I know that have GPLed their software. Don't cloud the issue with rhetoric, Brett. At least in my experience, people GPL their software because they have a fundamental desire to keep other people from profiting from their freely given work. I can completely understand how someone would GPL their work for reasons like this, just as I understand how others (myself included) would put a BSD license on software to stimulate commercial interest in a project. > One way it does this is to drive the market value of a product > with a given feature set to zero, while keeping its cost to > commercial software vendors (either in development or licensing costs) > high. So it remains a completely public development effort, rather than a commercial development effort, or a commercial-public effort. It's not evil, my man, simply different. Will it stunt the growth of some projects? Will it fragment others? Maybe. But when a BSD-licensed chunk of code is used by a company, there's no guarantee that they'll contribute back to the community from whence the code came, either. There's no silver bullet here, Brett. > Free software can and does take away business opportunities. But the > BSD license, unlike the GPL, "gives back" by allowing commercial > software companies to build on the code and add value without > forfeiting the money they could make from their labor. Yes, but realize there that people who use the BSD license are making a rational decision to give away valuable work. People who use GPL simply don't want anyone else to take their valuable, freely-given work, close the development, add proprietary extensions, and make gobs of money. Selfish? Maybe, but it's their choice, because they wrote the software. I don't use the GPL now (although I have) because it does, as you point out, have the potential to stunt development efforts in some projects, but again, it's the author's choice, just as it is your choice whether or not you'd like to use a GPLed work as a basis for your own new software projects. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 07:06:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA17153 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:06:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA17145 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:06:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id QAA91496; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:06:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Feb 1999 16:06:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jasper O'Malley"'s message of "Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:38:22 -0600 (CST)" Message-ID: Lines: 21 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jasper O'Malley" writes: > Yes, but realize there that people who use the BSD license are making a > rational decision to give away valuable work. People who use GPL simply > don't want anyone else to take their valuable, freely-given work, close > the development, add proprietary extensions, and make gobs of money. If that was really their only motivation, they'd use something non-contagious. The contagion element of the GPL buys the developer nothing; it's there solely to prevent other people from making money from their own hard work. The primary motivation for using the GPL is the same as a sheep's motivation for following the flock, or a lemming's motivation for jumping into the water. There's this tall bearded guy up front who says the world will be a better place if they follow him, and Ghod forbid that they should spend the energy to form thoughts of their own. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 07:13:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18147 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:13:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18137 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:13:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.2/8.9.2) id RAA29258; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:10:47 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:10:47 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Message-ID: <19990208171047.D96974@shale.csir.co.za> References: <4.1.19990207230639.009284c0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jasper O'Malley on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 08:38:22AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 08:38:22AM -0600, Jasper O'Malley wrote: > That might be RMS' intent, but it sure as hell isn't the intent of most > people I know that have GPLed their software. Don't cloud the issue with > rhetoric, Brett. At least in my experience, people GPL their software > because they have a fundamental desire to keep other people from profiting > from their freely given work. I can completely understand how someone > would GPL their work for reasons like this, just as I understand how > others (myself included) would put a BSD license on software to stimulate > commercial interest in a project. The Mozilla Public Licence (http://www.mozilla.org/) are much better for the job of protecting ones work. It is middle of the road: If someone wants to change the code they have to contribute those changes back, but if they want to extend the code, then they can choose their own licence (BSD, NPL/MPL, etc). They can't use the GPL, because of the GPL requires that they ensure that all of their code base is licensed under the GPL, and the MPL explictly limits relicensing. FreeBSD could use MPL licensed code in the kernel or main libraries without any problems, since it is non polluting, and commercial companies can reuse the code provided they return their bug fixes. To my mind, the idea of protecting ones ideas is quite valid, and I'd MPL my own code if I thought I was going to get ripped off by a commercial company. It's using the GPL to gain access to others intellectual property, by 'blackmailing' them if they want to use mine, which I don't like one bit. Regards, -Jeremy -- | "I could be anything I wanted to, but one things true --+-- Never gonna be as big as Jesus, never gonna hold the world in my hand | Never gonna be as big as Jesus, never gonna build a promised land | But that's, that's all right, OK with me..." -Audio Adrenaline To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 07:21:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA18723 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:21:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA18717 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 07:21:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA11961; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:21:31 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:21:31 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav cc: Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 Feb 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > If that was really their only motivation, they'd use something > non-contagious. The contagion element of the GPL buys the developer > nothing; Sure it does. It says, "if you've got a piece of software that's got 90% or my code in it and 10% of yours, you can't sell it unless you make the source code available." > it's there solely to prevent other people from making money > from their own hard work. I'm honestly no fan of the GPL, you must believe me, but, playing Devil's Advocate, if the base product weren't that valuable to you, you wouldn't use it. Again, as Devil's Advocate, what I see here are people demanding that you give away your code completely free if you're going to give it away at all. To that, the GPLer would say, "Don't like the terms under which I give away my software? Fine, don't use it." > The primary motivation for using the GPL is the same as a sheep's > motivation for following the flock, or a lemming's motivation for > jumping into the water. There's this tall bearded guy up front who > says the world will be a better place if they follow him, and Ghod > forbid that they should spend the energy to form thoughts of their > own. And this is the *real* danger. I have no problems if individuals slap the GPL on their work. Again, if it's not useful to me, I simply won't use it; likewise, if I can't accept the licensing terms, I won't use it. When you get large groups of people slapping the GPL on their work because they think that's what you do with open source software, you have a problem, because none of those people have considered the greater implications of the license. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 08:34:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA26078 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:34:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA26070 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:34:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.nws.net) Received: from pechter.nws.net (bg-tc-ppp721.monmouth.com [209.191.63.157]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA11377; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:34:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.nws.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) id LAA03677; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:31:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199902081631.LAA03677@pechter.nws.net> Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208045524.00cc3f10@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Feb 8, 1999 4:58: 0 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:31:54 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: pechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 06:46 AM 2/8/99 -0500, Bill Pechter wrote: > > >The GPL will fail to spread only when more people realize it will hurt > >their freedom and bottom line (personal and corporate). > > Good point, Bill. But at what point will they realize it? By the time a > significant number of people learned the full story about Microsoft, > the horse was long out of the barn and the barn had burned nearly to the > ground. A whole lot of people had been hurt. Must recognition come > only after the phenomenon has run away? Is there a way to sound the > alarm sooner? Or is it a lost cause? > > --Brett Probably a lost cause. Probably when all the research stuff done in the last few years ends up GPL'd and the non-Univ. R&D stuff goes non-OSS... someone's going to re-invent Public Domain and the Berkeley Copyright over again... I was a History major once -- eventually the pendulum swings back... Remember when IBM ruled the computer world. Remember when DEC was the timesharing leader... and a major player (). Remember when Digital Research began and the early business basic Remember when the 68k was the hot microprocessor for use on Unix business machines. IBM and Motorola may be alive but they're not the dominant figures they were... but they may be again. DEC's gone as anything but a memory. (As is their matrix management way of doing business and their competing product lines.) Digital Research is a name I see on monitors. (Someone buy this name?) Ebasic became Cbasic (before Symantec began swallowing companies and killing off products and everything they sold was Norton something or other... I remember when Norton wasn't a brand, but a person. (or a character on the Honeymooners). Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 08:55:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA28033 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:55:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA28026 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 08:55:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA11954; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:53:21 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208093715.04647610@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:53:16 -0700 To: "Jasper O'Malley" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Cc: Greg Lehey , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990207230639.009284c0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:38 AM 2/8/99 -0600, Jasper O'Malley wrote: >> As for why the GPL is bad for business: it treats business unfairly. >> Users can use GPLed software to serve THEIR needs, but commercial >> software companies can't use it to fulfill THEIRS. That's the >> intent: to drive commercial software companies out of business. > >That might be RMS' intent, but it sure as hell isn't the intent of most >people I know that have GPLed their software. True. And that's the problem. While they don't INTEND to realize RMS's goals, they are furthering them nonetheless. It is, in some ways, similar to harboring a virus. You don't have to INTEND to make other people sick; you may not know you have the bug, or if you do, you may go into work because your co-workers need you (or your family needs to eat). Nonetheless, you are spreading the virus. If the virus was (as in this case) created to accomplish a specific end, you may be furthering that end unwittingly. This, I believe, is the case with authors who use the GPL. >Don't cloud the issue with rhetoric, Brett. It's not I but RMS who cloaks the issue with rhetoric. He has told me as much! He realized that he would not get far by preaching to the world that the notion of intellectual property is fundamentally wrong. So, instead, he couched his description of the GPL in terms of goodness, light, and "freedom." >At least in my experience, people GPL their software >because they have a fundamental desire to keep other people from profiting >from their freely given work. I can completely understand how someone >would GPL their work for reasons like this, just as I understand how >others (myself included) would put a BSD license on software to stimulate >commercial interest in a project. The problem is, it doesn't work. Red Hat profits greatly from Linux and doesn't pay the authors a dime! And who can really tell if someone "lifts" some GPLed code and compiles it into a product? The only way to ensure that no one profits from your source code is not to disclose it. >> One way it does this is to drive the market value of a product >> with a given feature set to zero, while keeping its cost to >> commercial software vendors (either in development or licensing costs) >> high. > >So it remains a completely public development effort, rather than a >commercial development effort, or a commercial-public effort. It's not >evil, my man, simply different. To use the word "evil" implies a moral or religious judgment, which I am not making here. However, the GPL is, indeed, dangerous in that its intent is to wipe out commercial software. It is possible to have public development efforts without being destructive. >Will it stunt the growth of some projects? >Will it fragment others? Maybe. But when a BSD-licensed chunk of code is >used by a company, there's no guarantee that they'll contribute back to >the community from whence the code came, either. There's no silver bullet >here, Brett. I'm not trying to "kill" anything, therefore a "bullet" wouldn't be of much use! ;-) However, I see nothing wrong with a company using BSD-licensed code for its own commercial products. It's like checking a book out from the library and using the information in your work. If your efforts are successful, another good product will be available in the marketplace, and that's beneficial, too. >> Free software can and does take away business opportunities. But the >> BSD license, unlike the GPL, "gives back" by allowing commercial >> software companies to build on the code and add value without >> forfeiting the money they could make from their labor. > >Yes, but realize there that people who use the BSD license are making a >rational decision to give away valuable work. People who use GPL simply >don't want anyone else to take their valuable, freely-given work, close >the development, add proprietary extensions, and make gobs of money. They can't "close" the existing development effort, nor can they "take" the code. The code is out there and will remain so. Anyone who makes money from a product that uses the code will do so due to his or her valuable additions -- in fact, SOLELY due to those additions, because the code he or she started with (and its functionality) are freely available. By themselves, they have a market value of zero. So, if someone makes gobs of money from BSD-licensed code, it is because that person DESERVES it. >Selfish? Maybe, but it's their choice, because they wrote the software. >I don't use the GPL now (although I have) because it does, as you point >out, have the potential to stunt development efforts in some projects, but >again, it's the author's choice, just as it is your choice whether or not >you'd like to use a GPLed work as a basis for your own new software >projects. The problem is that, before people realize what the GPL does, they will have done a great deal of damage by releasing their code that way. It is important that those of us who can SEE what is going on explain this to developers. Otherwise, we'll all be hurt in the long run. --Brett Glass "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 09:04:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28827 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:04:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28821 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:04:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA12108; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:03:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208095441.00c43100@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:00:33 -0700 To: "Jasper O'Malley" , Dag-Erling Smorgrav From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Cc: Greg Lehey , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:21 AM 2/8/99 -0600, Jasper O'Malley wrote: >[The GPL] says, "if you've got a piece of software that's got 90% >or my code in it and 10% of yours, you can't sell it unless you make the >source code available." Or ONE LINE of my code in it and all the rest is yours. >I'm honestly no fan of the GPL, you must believe me, but, playing Devil's >Advocate, if the base product weren't that valuable to you, you wouldn't >use it. Again, as Devil's Advocate, what I see here are people demanding >that you give away your code completely free if you're going to give it >away at all. To that, the GPLer would say, "Don't like the terms under >which I give away my software? Fine, don't use it." The "GPLer" (Interesting term!) may not realize the broader effects of licensing code under the GPL. They extend much farther than his or her personal desire to be paid when someone else makes good! Also, that person may not realize that the odds of being paid are slim to none, because it's a poor business proposition to pay to license GPLed code. Think about it. The market value of GPLed code -- that is, the amount that a customer is willing to pay for its functionality -- is zero, because it can be had for free. For a developer to pay more than zero to achieve functionality that has zero market value is a losing proposition. (Some GPL authors, by the way, won't license their code at any price -- and the existence of multiple authors, not all of whom can be identified, usually makes licensing infeasible.) The developer who wants to use GPLed code is shafted from the start! This is as RMS intended, though it is may not be obvious until one thinks it through from that viewpoint. >And this is the *real* danger. I have no problems if individuals slap the >GPL on their work. Again, if it's not useful to me, I simply won't use it; >likewise, if I can't accept the licensing terms, I won't use it. That's not the real danger. The real danger is the harm that's done to innovation and to programmers' livelihoods. >When you get large groups of people slapping the GPL on their work because >they think that's what you do with open source software, you have a >problem, because none of those people have considered the greater >implications of the license. Very true! --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 09:08:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA29435 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:08:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA29430 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:08:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04735; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:08:17 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:08:17 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208093715.04647610@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't mean to be inflamatory, but if the GPL upsets you this much, wouldn't the most effective way to oppose it be to take the time and make the effort to carefully create a new and detailed license focused on your own particular goals, then make this license widely available to the general public? I honestly don't think any amount of posting of this type will have any effect on the GPL one way or the other. It will simply continue to stir up arguments and earn you a public label that I doubt you would want to have. I've posted an article as to my own thoughts on software licensing, which is available at : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/writing/articles/licensing.html The article includes some commentary on creating a new license that may be useful. :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 09:16:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00419 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:16:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA00411 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:16:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id SAA91856; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:15:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Brett Glass , Greg Lehey , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Feb 1999 18:15:57 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jasper O'Malley"'s message of "Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:21:31 -0600 (CST)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jasper O'Malley" writes: > On 8 Feb 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > If that was really their only motivation, they'd use something > > non-contagious. The contagion element of the GPL buys the developer > > nothing; > Sure it does. It says, "if you've got a piece of software that's got 90% > or my code in it and 10% of yours, you can't sell it unless you make the > source code available." Why should I need to make my 10% available? Is it not enough that I make your 90% available? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 09:17:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA00691 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:17:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA00685 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:17:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA12283; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:17:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208100915.00be6840@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:16:56 -0700 To: Licia From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990208093715.04647610@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:08 AM 2/8/99 -0600, Licia wrote: >I don't mean to be inflamatory, but if the GPL upsets you this much, >wouldn't the most effective way to oppose it be to take the time and >make the effort to carefully create a new and detailed license focused >on your own particular goals, then make this license widely available >to the general public? It's simple. I recommend the 2-clause Berkeley license with the following additional clause: Neither this code, nor any derivative work based on this code, may be published under a license that conditions its use upon the publication of source code. This prevents the code, or something based on it, from being GPLed. >I honestly don't think any amount of posting of this type will have >any effect on the GPL one way or the other. It will simply continue >to stir up arguments and earn you a public label that I doubt you >would want to have. "Labeling" people is generally unwise; and I'd hope that smart people would know better than to do that. But if people recognize that I see the GPL as destructive, that's fine; that is indeed what I think. >I've posted an article as to my own thoughts on software licensing, >which is available at : > >http://www.o-o.org/~licia/writing/articles/licensing.html > >The article includes some commentary on creating a new license that >may be useful. :) Maybe. I think it's odd, though, that you state that a license should have a "Preamble." Only the GPL has one. In fact, it is the GPL's "Preamble" that attempts to hide the GPL's true intent, by saying that RMS wants software to be "free" rather than that he wants to destroy commercial software companies. --Brett Glass "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 09:37:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02616 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:37:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA02611 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:37:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA02624; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:37:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass cc: Licia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Feb 1999 10:16:56 MST." <4.1.19990208100915.00be6840@mail.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:37:20 -0800 Message-ID: <2620.918495440@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It's simple. I recommend the 2-clause Berkeley license with the following > additional clause: > > Neither this code, nor any derivative work based on this code, may be > published under a license that conditions its use upon the publication > of source code. No offense, but this is unwise. Either you're for absolute freedom of movement or you're against it, and the whole beauty of the 2 clause BSD license is that it's simple and specifically does NOT attempt to place undue restrictions upon reuse. That last paragraph there is very legally ambiguous ("publication" is a very loose term which any lawyer could make legal hash out of) and only obfuscates the license for what is probably zero legal gain. I honestly do not and cannot recommend that anyone use a license other than the 2 clause Berkeley license, unmodified and unmolested in any way. Its very simplicity is a precise and deliberate part of its attractiveness in the first place. Start mucking with it and the GPL, with all its good intentions and mountains of legaese, is the next stop in the road. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 09:47:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04123 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:47:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04113 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:47:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04846; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:47:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:47:53 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208100915.00be6840@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:08 AM 2/8/99 -0600, Licia wrote: > > >I don't mean to be inflamatory, but if the GPL upsets you this much, > >wouldn't the most effective way to oppose it be to take the time and > >make the effort to carefully create a new and detailed license focused > >on your own particular goals, then make this license widely available > >to the general public? > > It's simple. I recommend the 2-clause Berkeley license with the following > additional clause: > > Neither this code, nor any derivative work based on this code, may be > published under a license that conditions its use upon the publication > of source code. > > This prevents the code, or something based on it, from being GPLed. > Then perhaps you should write that clause, attach it to a copy of a BSL, apply a specific name to it, and advocate this license by name, publicly? > >I honestly don't think any amount of posting of this type will have > >any effect on the GPL one way or the other. It will simply continue > >to stir up arguments and earn you a public label that I doubt you > >would want to have. > > "Labeling" people is generally unwise; and I'd hope that smart people > would know better than to do that. But if people recognize that I > see the GPL as destructive, that's fine; that is indeed what I > think. > Labeling is sad, I agree. I have been the victim of it many times. However, it does still happen, and at times the effect of that labeling must be considered if our work is to have any effect. > >I've posted an article as to my own thoughts on software licensing, > >which is available at : > > > >http://www.o-o.org/~licia/writing/articles/licensing.html > > > >The article includes some commentary on creating a new license that > >may be useful. :) > > Maybe. I think it's odd, though, that you state that a license should > have a "Preamble." Only the GPL has one. In fact, it is the GPL's > "Preamble" that attempts to hide the GPL's true intent, by saying that > RMS wants software to be "free" rather than that he wants to destroy > commercial software companies. > > --Brett Glass > In what way do you find it odd that I mention that some licenses have preambles? Have you read many software licenses Mr. Glass? Quite a large number of licenses use preambles, including the artistic license authored by Larry Wall which is one of the two licenses Perl is released under (and to which there is a link in the article) along with most commercial licenses. I take exception Mr. Glass, to your misquoting and paraphrasing of what I said regarding preambles. I point out, if you had actually read the article, that "many licenses actually disregard this section." additionally, at no point say did I say that one 'should' be included. What I said regarding a preamble is this : * The Preamble : Usually contains commentary about the purpose of the license, philosophy, etc. This should be kept short if possible, and many licenses actually disregard this section. This is also a good place to comment on the copyright and license for the license itself. (that being a direct cut and paste from our beloved Lynx) In the future please do not misrepresent what I've said. [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 09:54:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA04961 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:54:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles315.castles.com [208.214.167.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04955 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:54:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA13456; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 09:50:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199902081750.JAA13456@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Martin Cracauer cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 100Mbit ethernet card comparision In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Feb 1999 14:53:25 +0100." <19990208145325.A8384@cons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 09:50:22 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I run a number of dhrystones one after another so that the time for > all of them was about 1 min. Just before the first dhrystone starts, > the same TCP streaming benchmark as above is being started, and > immedeatly after the dhrystones end SIGHUP is sent to the cstream > tool, which ends its loop then and reports the throughput. > > OS/card seconds r/u/s on throughput of > on CPU process network process > ----------------------------------------------------- > FreeBSD/de: 10.36/10.26/0.02 2.10 MioB/sec > FreeBSD/de: 10.36/10.26/0.02 2.21 MioB/sec > FreeBSD/rl: 10.41/10.24/0.02 0.38 MioB/sec > FreeBSD/rl: 10.39/10.24/0.02 0.28 MioB/sec > FreeBSD/rl: 10.41/10.24/0.02 0.24 MioB/sec > Linux/rl: 27.8/14.7/0.6 8.44 MioB/sec > Linux/rl: 22.9/14.4/4.4 6.50 MioB/sec > Linux/rl: 26.4/14.7/5.8 7.81 MioB/sec > Linux/de: 20.7/14.6/0.9 9.21 MioB/sec > Linux/de: 20.5/13.8/1.0 9.14 MioB/sec > Linux/de: 21.0/14.2/1.2 9.64 MioB/sec > > Example read: With rl Ethernet, Linux leaves half the CPU for the CPU > intensive process and gets ~8 MB/sec for the networking process, while > FreeBSD leaves 99% CPU for the CPU eater and gets 0.25-0.4 MB/sec out > of the networking connection. Did you look at the relative process priorities during this run? We've seen this behaviour reported before; I'm wondering if the I/O-bound process is being penalised for doing large amounts of (small?) I/O... -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 10:37:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09567 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:37:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09559 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:37:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA13242; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:37:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208113442.00c08cd0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:37:01 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Cc: Licia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <2620.918495440@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:37 AM 2/8/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >No offense, but this is unwise. Either you're for absolute freedom of >movement or you're against it, and the whole beauty of the 2 clause >BSD license is that it's simple and specifically does NOT attempt to >place undue restrictions upon reuse. That last paragraph there is >very legally ambiguous ("publication" is a very loose term which any >lawyer could make legal hash out of) and only obfuscates the license >for what is probably zero legal gain. I honestly do not and cannot >recommend that anyone use a license other than the 2 clause Berkeley >license, unmodified and unmolested in any way. Its very simplicity is >a precise and deliberate part of its attractiveness in the first >place. Start mucking with it and the GPL, with all its good >intentions and mountains of legaese, is the next stop in the road. Jordan: I see your point about the language. Still I strongly believe that, if we do not place a "poison pill" against the GPL in our licenses, we will see the GPL subsume all else. If you were to add something that would prevent open source code from being relicensed under the GPL, how would you phrase it? --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 10:45:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10313 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:45:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10290; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:45:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.70]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA389D; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:45:27 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990208233720.61928@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:54:40 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Sue Blake Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nicole Harrington , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Licia , "Oben O. Candemir" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 08-Feb-99 Sue Blake wrote: > On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:20:45PM +1100, Oben O. Candemir wrote: >> "I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body" :) > > Hmm, you're not gonna find a lesbian who wants someone with a man's > body, no matter what's inside it. But don't despair! Given the > thousands of men's bodies around here it is highly likely there's > another "lesbian trapped in a man's body" who's looking for someone > just like you! :-) If I hear of someone else like that I'll send him > your way. Whoaha, ye guys don't shun deep philosophical subjects eh? *goes off to think about the sheer simplicity of `just' being straight* =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 10:45:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA10329 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:45:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10281 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:45:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.70]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA388E; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:45:24 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 19:54:37 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Sore Support Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , "Jason C. Wells" , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Mike Smith , "Oben O. Candemir" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 08-Feb-99 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Oben O. Candemir" writes: >> On Sun, 7 Feb 1999, Mike Smith wrote: >> > Yes, we need more help. Yes, we know this. No, you're not providing >> > any. Please recitfy the situation. >> [...] >> I think you guys ought to lose some of the 'attitude' and perhaps be >> more >> accepting of people who can help in ways other than codin'. There are >> people smarter and more talented than even you... get used to the idea I >> say. > > That is utter bullshit. Go tell the good people on freebsd-doc that we > don't respect people who can't code, and watch them laugh in your > face. I agree with DES here. Nik Clayton has done a great job reorganising the documents and Wolfram has done great things maintaining the WWW pages. Repect to them both. > We do not, however, respect people who come out of the blue with no > documented experience and tell us how to run our shop. I have yet to > see you post something on this (or any) list that isn't venomous or > arrogant or both. Show us that you *can* contribute something > valuable, *then* come tell us how to do things better. Here I have to side with Oben though, he has written some very good documents IMHO for the FreeBSD ezine (at www.freebsdzine.org). But guys let's just drop all the bullshit and sharp remarks to both sides and start to work on what we love to contribute to eh? *goes off to mess with some patches and writing up some docs* --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 10:54:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA11203 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:54:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11197 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 10:54:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA13469; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:54:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208115114.0457c800@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:53:55 -0700 To: Martin Cracauer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: 100Mbit ethernet card comparision In-Reply-To: <19990208145325.A8384@cons.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:53 PM 2/8/99 +0100, Martin Cracauer wrote: >I just had three 100MBit/sec ethernet cards in reach and though I >could do a little experimenting: > >Operating Systems: >FreeBSD: FreeBSD-current from Jan, 22, 1999 (before 4.0 branch) >Linux: 2.2.0-pre9, userland mostly Debian-1.3.1 > >Ethernet cards: >de - DEC 21140 >fxp - Intel 82558 >rl - Realtek 8139 [SNIP] >OS Card MioByte/sec %user %sys %interrupt >---------------------------------------------------------- >Linux de 10.93-10.96 3 26-28 - >FreeBSD de 10.70-10.72 3 29-31 4-5 >FreeBSD fxp 10.66-10.67 3 25-28 5-6 >FreeBSD rl 10.55-10.56 3 28-31 14-16 >Linux rl 10.85-11.14 3 28-30 - >Linux fxp doesn't work Very interesting. I'm surprised that there is so little difference between the cards! I'd been given to understand that the fxp driver was significantly more efficient than de or especially rl, but it seems not to matter in practice. Maybe I should buy more of those cheap rl cards. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:01:20 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA12689 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:01:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12675 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:01:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA03071; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:01:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass cc: Licia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:37:01 MST." <4.1.19990208113442.00c08cd0@mail.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 11:01:06 -0800 Message-ID: <3067.918500466@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I see your point about the language. Still I strongly believe that, > if we do not place a "poison pill" against the GPL in our licenses, > we will see the GPL subsume all else. If you were to add something > that would prevent open source code from being relicensed under > the GPL, how would you phrase it? I wouldn't add a thing. Poison pills have a way of poisoning the owners and I don't see them as an effective or desirable form of defense at all. For each degree of increased freedom always comes a corresonding degree of increased risk and that's just life. I think the freedom/risk ratio is already well balanced in the 2-clause BSD license and I wouldn't be inclined to do anything which alters that balance. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:03:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13002 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:03:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA12997 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:03:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.70]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA53F0; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:03:29 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208044608.00c8a9f0@mail.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:12:42 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Effects of the GPL Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Gregory Sutter Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 08-Feb-99 Brett Glass wrote: > I think it will. The GPL limits opportunities for entrepreneurship, > because it's tough to start a company that creates, and profits from, > useful software. And it hurts innovation, because inventive programmers > can't base their work on what came before and reap the benefits of their > additions. Instead, they must reimplement the wheel first. This > imposes such a hefty penalty that few will try. Just an interesting sidenote, aren't all the people who offer binary gz's of their programs licensed under GPL in violation, or would the seperate available download of the source be sufficient? > But I would welcome contributions to an > online presentation about the subject. I'd like to call it "The > Fortress, the Cathedral, and the Bazaar." Microsoft, of course, > would be the Fortress; the theology-motivated FSF (with Linux and > the GPL) the Cathedral; and the commercial software world and the > BSD movement the Bazaar. Brett, with all pleasure... I was thinking the same after reading ESR's documents and the Halloweens docs. Mail me =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:03:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13058 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:03:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA13016 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:03:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.70]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA6A8D; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:03:33 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990208163252.C96974@shale.csir.co.za> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:12:46 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Jeremy Lea Subject: Re: Effects of the GPL Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 08-Feb-99 Jeremy Lea wrote: > (Using Eric Raymond's terms) It's interesting to note that the > Cathedral has no god while the Bazaar seems to have a shrine on every > corner... RMS, Linus, ESR, Alan Cox, etc, etc. Don't forget Jordan, Terry, Mike and Matthew, LOL! =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:05:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA13406 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:05:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cons.org (knight.cons.org [194.233.237.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA13386 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:05:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@cons.org) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by cons.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id UAA09164; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:05:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:05:23 +0100 From: Martin Cracauer To: Brett Glass Cc: Martin Cracauer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 100Mbit ethernet card comparision Message-ID: <19990208200523.A9112@cons.org> References: <19990208145325.A8384@cons.org> <4.1.19990208115114.0457c800@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208115114.0457c800@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:53:55AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <4.1.19990208115114.0457c800@mail.lariat.org>, Brett Glass wrote: > >OS Card MioByte/sec %user %sys %interrupt > >---------------------------------------------------------- > >Linux de 10.93-10.96 3 26-28 - > >FreeBSD de 10.70-10.72 3 29-31 4-5 > >FreeBSD fxp 10.66-10.67 3 25-28 5-6 > >FreeBSD rl 10.55-10.56 3 28-31 14-16 > >Linux rl 10.85-11.14 3 28-30 - > >Linux fxp doesn't work > > > Very interesting. I'm surprised that there is so little difference > between the cards! I'd been given to understand that the fxp driver > was significantly more efficient than de or especially rl, but it > seems not to matter in practice. Maybe I should buy more of those > cheap rl cards. The fxp driver needs about 12% less system CPU than the de driver, that is significant. A different matter is that the de driver seems to need a little less interrupt time (which does more damage than system time), but the difference is little and could be benchmarking sloopyness. How could you come to the conclusion the rl is as good as the de. Read my mail again, rl under FreeBSD is suicide. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ Tel.: (private) +4940 5221829 Fax.: (private) +4940 5228536 Paper: (private) Waldstrasse 200, 22846 Norderstedt, Germany To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:15:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14075 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:15:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14069 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:15:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA13748; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:15:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208120931.04582e90@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:15:02 -0700 To: Martin Cracauer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: 100Mbit ethernet card comparision Cc: Martin Cracauer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990208200523.A9112@cons.org> References: <4.1.19990208115114.0457c800@mail.lariat.org> <19990208145325.A8384@cons.org> <4.1.19990208115114.0457c800@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:05 PM 2/8/99 +0100, Martin Cracauer wrote: >How could you come to the conclusion the rl is as good as the de. Read >my mail again, rl under FreeBSD is suicide. I just noted that rl was about as fast as de. Yes, there's more interrupt overhead, but does this qualify as suicide? Most of my FreeBSD machines -- even the 486es -- lope along with such low CPU utilization that they could probably spare the CPU. This doesn't mean, of course, that the rl chip design isn't brain dead; it is. I'd really like to see a network card that was built to do the right things with IPv4 and IPv6 packets -- that is, to make it easy to extract the header. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:16:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14165 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:16:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (st-lcremean.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14134 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:15:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id OAA02696; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:10:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990208141042.A2652@tidalwave.net> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:10:42 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Licia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <2620.918495440@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990208113442.00c08cd0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208113442.00c08cd0@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:37:01AM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:37:01AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:37 AM 2/8/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I see your point about the language. Still I strongly believe that, > if we do not place a "poison pill" against the GPL in our licenses, > we will see the GPL subsume all else. If you were to add something > that would prevent open source code from being relicensed under > the GPL, how would you phrase it? > Brett, you're missing the point yet again. The BSD license as we see it is free to _all_ comers, no matter what bent they may be -- GPL, proprietary, even (*shudder*) Microsoft. Putting a "poison pill" in the license would make it just as distasteful to the champions of free software as the GPL is to corporations. Like Jordan said, this is one of the great things about the license we have now; it doesn't assume that one group of users is inherently "evil". That said, if you're so concerned about it, you could always write your own license, as has been suggested many times already. Mark our words, though -- _any_ license that prohibits changing its terms is bad news in the long run. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on DALnet and WTnet)| | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:18:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA14470 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:18:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14465 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:18:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA13804; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:18:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208121541.0457d5d0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:18:33 -0700 To: lcremean@tidalwave.net, "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Cc: Licia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990208141042.A2652@tidalwave.net> References: <4.1.19990208113442.00c08cd0@mail.lariat.org> <2620.918495440@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990208113442.00c08cd0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:10 PM 2/8/99 -0500, Lee Cremeans wrote: >Brett, you're missing the point yet again. The BSD license as we see it is >free to _all_ comers, no matter what bent they may be -- GPL, proprietary, >even (*shudder*) Microsoft. Putting a "poison pill" in the license would >make it just as distasteful to the champions of free software as the GPL is >to corporations. Like Jordan said, this is one of the great things about the >license we have now; it doesn't assume that one group of users is inherently >"evil". I don't see it as a matter of good and evil but as a matter of basic fairness. I don't think it's good to offer the code on one set of terms to users and on another (very onerous) set of terms to commercial developers. I'd like to see some ideas about how to avoid this! For example, should I write a whizzy new driver for FreeBSD, I'd hate to see it incorporated into Linux when my intent is to promote BSD-licensed software. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:27:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15395 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:27:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15380 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:27:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id FAA29008; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:56:57 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id FAA50809; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:56:55 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 05:56:55 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: lcremean@tidalwave.net, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Licia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Message-ID: <19990209055655.P86778@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990208113442.00c08cd0@mail.lariat.org> <2620.918495440@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990208113442.00c08cd0@mail.lariat.org> <19990208141042.A2652@tidalwave.net> <4.1.19990208121541.0457d5d0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208121541.0457d5d0@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 12:18:33PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 8 February 1999 at 12:18:33 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:10 PM 2/8/99 -0500, Lee Cremeans wrote: > >> Brett, you're missing the point yet again. The BSD license as we see it is >> free to _all_ comers, no matter what bent they may be -- GPL, proprietary, >> even (*shudder*) Microsoft. Putting a "poison pill" in the license would >> make it just as distasteful to the champions of free software as the GPL is >> to corporations. Like Jordan said, this is one of the great things about the >> license we have now; it doesn't assume that one group of users is inherently >> "evil". > > I don't see it as a matter of good and evil but as a matter of basic fairness. > I don't think it's good to offer the code on one set of terms to users and > on another (very onerous) set of terms to commercial developers. I'd like to see > some ideas about how to avoid this! For example, should I write a whizzy > new driver for FreeBSD, I'd hate to see it incorporated into Linux when > my intent is to promote BSD-licensed software. Why should incorporating it into Linux be worse than incorporating it into System V? That's where the greatest proportion of the BSD code has gone. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:28:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15429 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:28:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15424 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:27:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20925; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:27:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:27:56 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199902081927.LAA20925@kithrup.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208095441.00c43100.kithrup.freebsd.chat@mail.lariat.org> References: Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <4.1.19990208095441.00c43100.kithrup.freebsd.chat@mail.lariat.org> you write: >>[The GPL] says, "if you've got a piece of software that's got 90% >>or my code in it and 10% of yours, you can't sell it unless you make the >>source code available." >Or ONE LINE of my code in it and all the rest is yours. And if you can't rewrite that one line (and, frankly, I doubt brett could -- he's demonstrated a huge amount of idiocy), then why the hell should you be entitled to it? Listen very carefully: You are not forced to use any code. You don't like it, don't use it. But if you do use it, you damned well better be willing to accept the licensing terms the author wants. And stop your whining. Net/1 would not have come about had the GPL not already made some inroads. 386BSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD would not have come about had gcc not existed. The X Windowing System would not have been pushed to have been freely available outside of the commercial group had RMS not had such a presence and influence at MIT. Without Linux, there would be no commercial interest in supporting any freely-distributable OS, save of the sorts Walnut Creek has (CD-ROM sales). And then I see you whiners supporting the hypocrisy that is the "Mozilla Pubilc License." Wow. Must be because there's a company behind it, and not a single person with a vision and goal that have helped every single person reading this message. Oh, and I suggest all of you whiners -- Brett the Idiot in particular -- take a look at BSDi's commercial success vs. Caldera's or Red Hat's commercial success. BSDi took the so-called "free" software, and made it proprietary, and is languishing. And yet Caldera and Red Hat, which are using the apparantly anti-commercial GPL'd code, and are flourishing. Idiots. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:32:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA15947 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:32:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cons.org (knight.cons.org [194.233.237.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA15937 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:32:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@cons.org) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by cons.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id UAA09211; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:10:58 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:10:58 +0100 From: Martin Cracauer To: Mike Smith Cc: Martin Cracauer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 100Mbit ethernet card comparision Message-ID: <19990208201058.B9112@cons.org> References: <19990208145325.A8384@cons.org> <199902081750.JAA13456@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199902081750.JAA13456@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 09:50:22AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <199902081750.JAA13456@dingo.cdrom.com>, Mike Smith wrote: > > I run a number of dhrystones one after another so that the time for > > all of them was about 1 min. Just before the first dhrystone starts, > > the same TCP streaming benchmark as above is being started, and > > immedeatly after the dhrystones end SIGHUP is sent to the cstream > > tool, which ends its loop then and reports the throughput. > > > > OS/card seconds r/u/s on throughput of > > on CPU process network process > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > FreeBSD/de: 10.36/10.26/0.02 2.10 MioB/sec > > FreeBSD/de: 10.36/10.26/0.02 2.21 MioB/sec > > FreeBSD/rl: 10.41/10.24/0.02 0.38 MioB/sec > > FreeBSD/rl: 10.39/10.24/0.02 0.28 MioB/sec > > FreeBSD/rl: 10.41/10.24/0.02 0.24 MioB/sec > > Linux/rl: 27.8/14.7/0.6 8.44 MioB/sec > > Linux/rl: 22.9/14.4/4.4 6.50 MioB/sec > > Linux/rl: 26.4/14.7/5.8 7.81 MioB/sec > > Linux/de: 20.7/14.6/0.9 9.21 MioB/sec > > Linux/de: 20.5/13.8/1.0 9.14 MioB/sec > > Linux/de: 21.0/14.2/1.2 9.64 MioB/sec > > > > Example read: With rl Ethernet, Linux leaves half the CPU for the CPU > > intensive process and gets ~8 MB/sec for the networking process, while > > FreeBSD leaves 99% CPU for the CPU eater and gets 0.25-0.4 MB/sec out > > of the networking connection. > > Did you look at the relative process priorities during this run? We've > seen this behaviour reported before; I'm wondering if the I/O-bound > process is being penalised for doing large amounts of (small?) I/O... I didn't. But I already took into account that I missed information important to some of you and since the test setup is difficult to reproduce for anyone else, I will rerun all the tests with an eye to whatever you guys need. Submissions welcome. The network process does 8KB transfers in all cases, but it does it to a (shell-opened) pipe to rsh. P.S. Anyone in Hamburg/Germany with one of the 3com 100MBit models? Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ Tel.: (private) +4940 5221829 Fax.: (private) +4940 5228536 Paper: (private) Waldstrasse 200, 22846 Norderstedt, Germany To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:42:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17674 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:42:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA17668 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:42:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA14050; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:42:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208123527.04580960@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:42:07 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <199902081927.LAA20925@kithrup.com> References: <4.1.19990208095441.00c43100.kithrup.freebsd.chat@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:27 AM 2/8/99 -0800, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: >And stop your whining. Sean, you seem to have a habit of claiming that anyone who disagrees with oyou is "whining." This adds nothing but rancor to the discussion. Why must you do it? >Net/1 would not have come about had the GPL not already made some inroads. > >386BSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, and FreeBSD would not have come about had gcc not >existed. Why not? There are other publicly available compilers, such as TenDRA. What's more, it would (at least at that time) have been possible to adopt an inexpensive commercial compiler before GCC drove all of them from the market. >The X Windowing System would not have been pushed to have been freely >available outside of the commercial group had RMS not had such a presence and >influence at MIT. There were plenty of other, more sensible advocates of this than RMS. And, frankly, they prevailed, as X is not under the GPL. >Without Linux, there would be no commercial interest in supporting any >freely-distributable OS, save of the sorts Walnut Creek has (CD-ROM sales). This support is misguided. By supporting the GPL, these companies will commit suicide themselves. >And then I see you whiners supporting the hypocrisy that is the "Mozilla Pubilc >License." Again, the unnecessary ad hominem attack -- and the accusation of "whining" when someone disagrees with you. You're also very much off base, as I have never advocated the MPL. >Oh, and I suggest all of you whiners -- Brett the Idiot in particular -- Calling me an "idiot" really helps to prove your point. I'm convinced. ;-) >take a look at BSDi's commercial success vs. Caldera's or Red Hat's commercial >success. BSDi took the so-called "free" software, and made it proprietary, >and is languishing. And yet Caldera and Red Hat, which are using the >apparantly anti-commercial GPL'd code, and are flourishing. That's because they're disk foundries and little else. BSDi actually COULD be doing much better, since they offer unique value added. However, their marketing is not good. --Brett > >Idiots. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:42:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA18148 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:42:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18124 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:42:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA14046; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:42:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208123300.04582220@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 12:34:02 -0700 To: Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Cc: lcremean@tidalwave.net, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Licia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990209055655.P86778@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990208121541.0457d5d0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990208113442.00c08cd0@mail.lariat.org> <2620.918495440@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990208113442.00c08cd0@mail.lariat.org> <19990208141042.A2652@tidalwave.net> <4.1.19990208121541.0457d5d0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:56 AM 2/9/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >Why should incorporating it into Linux be worse than incorporating it >into System V? Because the intent of Linux -- like the GPL -- is to destroy markets for commercial software. I do not support this goal and hence do not want to see my code appear in Linux. How best to avoid this? --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:48:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20774 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:48:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20769 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:48:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id NAA16589; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:49:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:49:16 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Brett Glass cc: Greg Lehey , lcremean@tidalwave.net, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Licia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208123300.04582220@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Because the intent of Linux -- like the GPL -- is to destroy markets > for commercial software. I do not support this goal and hence do > not want to see my code appear in Linux. How best to avoid this? Unless you want to be a hypocrite, you don't. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 11:55:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA21812 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:55:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cons.org (knight.cons.org [194.233.237.86]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA21806 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 11:55:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cracauer@cons.org) Received: (from cracauer@localhost) by cons.org (8.8.8/8.7.3) id UAA09463; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:55:34 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 20:55:34 +0100 From: Martin Cracauer To: Brett Glass Cc: Martin Cracauer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 100Mbit ethernet card comparision Message-ID: <19990208205534.A9430@cons.org> References: <4.1.19990208115114.0457c800@mail.lariat.org> <19990208145325.A8384@cons.org> <4.1.19990208115114.0457c800@mail.lariat.org> <19990208200523.A9112@cons.org> <4.1.19990208120931.04582e90@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208120931.04582e90@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 12:15:02PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In <4.1.19990208120931.04582e90@mail.lariat.org>, Brett Glass wrote: > I just noted that rl was about as fast as de. Yes, there's more interrupt > overhead, but does this qualify as suicide? Please read second tabsle of my original mail. > Most of my FreeBSD machines -- > even the 486es -- lope along with such low CPU utilization that they > could probably spare the CPU. Yes, but throughput is mimimized. Martin -- %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Martin Cracauer http://www.cons.org/cracauer/ Tel.: (private) +4940 5221829 Fax.: (private) +4940 5228536 Paper: (private) Waldstrasse 200, 22846 Norderstedt, Germany To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 12:33:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA26916 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:33:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA26898 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:33:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id VAA97999; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:32:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Jeremy Lea , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass Subject: Re: Effects of the GPL References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Feb 1999 21:32:43 +0100 In-Reply-To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai's message of "Mon, 08 Feb 1999 20:12:46 +0100 (CET)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai writes: > On 08-Feb-99 Jeremy Lea wrote: > > (Using Eric Raymond's terms) It's interesting to note that the > > Cathedral has no god while the Bazaar seems to have a shrine on every > > corner... RMS, Linus, ESR, Alan Cox, etc, etc. > Don't forget Jordan, Terry, Mike and Matthew, LOL! =) Nononono. Bruce is the One True Prophet. All hail Bruce! DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 12:38:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27532 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:38:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA27524 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:38:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA14752; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:38:49 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208133546.04530e80@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:38:42 -0700 To: "Jasper O'Malley" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990208123300.04582220@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:49 PM 2/8/99 -0600, Jasper O'Malley wrote: >Unless you want to be a hypocrite, you don't. Actually,. I think that ALLOWING my code to become part of Linux would be hypocritical. The GPL seeks to stamp out exactly the sort of free exchange of ideas (and code!) that I (and most of the folks present here) advocate, and I would not want to aid or abet this process in any way. I don't like to be "anti-" anything, but when one sees a clear and present danger it's important to take a stand against it. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 13:01:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00780 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:01:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA00775 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:01:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.2/8.9.2) id XAA34158 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:01:30 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:01:30 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Message-ID: <19990208230130.F96974@shale.csir.co.za> References: <4.1.19990208095441.00c43100.kithrup.freebsd.chat@mail.lariat.org> <199902081927.LAA20925@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199902081927.LAA20925@kithrup.com>; from Sean Eric Fagan on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:27:56AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:27:56AM -0800, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > And then I see you whiners supporting the hypocrisy that is the "Mozilla > Pubilc License." Wow. Must be because there's a company behind it, and > not a single person with a vision and goal that have helped every single > person reading this message. Since I'm the only person in this thread to mention the MPL, I'd really like you to explain your comments... Regards, -Jeremy -- | "Come home my prodigal son, come home and lets be one, --+-- don't want to see you cry, don't make me tell you why, | you've lived in a house with me, my blood has set you free, | in the world you'll surely die, nothing else will satisfy." -MIC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 13:13:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA03431 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:13:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA03426 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 13:13:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.70]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA2C94; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:13:49 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 22:23:03 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Effects of the GPL Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jeremy Lea Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 08-Feb-99 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai writes: >> On 08-Feb-99 Jeremy Lea wrote: >> > (Using Eric Raymond's terms) It's interesting to note that the >> > Cathedral has no god while the Bazaar seems to have a shrine on every >> > corner... RMS, Linus, ESR, Alan Cox, etc, etc. >> Don't forget Jordan, Terry, Mike and Matthew, LOL! =) > > Nononono. Bruce is the One True Prophet. All hail Bruce! What does that make ESR then? *ducks, _then_ runs* --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 14:03:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA10786 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:03:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA10779 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:03:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA16140 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:03:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd016104; Mon Feb 8 15:03:36 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA01994 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:03:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902082203.PAA01994@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: New CODA release To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:03:13 +0000 (GMT) In-Reply-To: <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> from "Sean Eric Fagan" at Feb 7, 99 11:00:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Coda is now GPL'd, that gives a good-bye to seeing this code integrated > >by any commercial UNIX :-(. > > Yes, because that damn GPL has certainly prevented gcc from being the single > most popular compiler ever available for unix systems. > > And that damn GPL has certainly prevented emacs from being distributed by > commercial UNIX vendors. > > And, gosh, that damn GPL has certainly prevented Samba from being of ANY use > to ANYONE, it's a good thing the FreeBSD Project won't touch it. And look at all that kernel code we've incorporated from Linux, saving us from having to reimplement all sorts of drivers. Oh, wait. That didn't happen. GPL is a barrier to commercial adoption for kernel components. The best you can hope for is a loadable module for those systems that support loadable modules, and independent installation (i.e.: it will never bee the boot FS for a commercial kernel, unless it is reimplemented/released under another license and/or as proprietary code from the OS vendor). > Whiner. You don't like it, go write your own. Good advice, even if the sentiment it came with is a bit caustic. 8-). I'd suggest taking the previous release as a starting point. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 14:06:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA11059 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:06:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA11039 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:05:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA18727; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:07:27 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:07:27 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Brett Glass cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208133546.04530e80@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 8 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Actually,. I think that ALLOWING my code to become part of Linux would be > hypocritical. The GPL seeks to stamp out exactly the sort of free exchange > of ideas (and code!) that I (and most of the folks present here) advocate, > and I would not want to aid or abet this process in any way. I don't like > to be "anti-" anything, but when one sees a clear and present danger it's > important to take a stand against it. But by doing so, you negate your own arguments to this point. By your own line of reasoning, BSD code that's integrated into GPLed projects isn't developmentally dead; it's just entered a proprietary product, more or less. If someone snarks BSD code and sticks it in a commercial product, you don't get the benefit of future development unless they voluntarily release their proprietary code additions. Likewise, if you simply consider all GPLed products "dead," I fail to see how incorporating BSD code into GPLed projects differs from incorporating BSD code into proprietary projects whose source code will never see the public light of day. If the GPLed project only contains 10% of your BSD-licensed source code, who are you to say that the other 90% can't be licensed as the author pleases? Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 14:34:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16497 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:30:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA16434 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:30:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12101; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:29:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd011991; Mon Feb 8 15:29:41 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA02958; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:29:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902082229.PAA02958@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:29:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, gsutter@pobox.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19990208125530.X86778@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 8, 99 12:55:30 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It was the standard compiler for OSF/1, so there's a good chance it is > for Digital UNIX as well. And there's nothing in the GPL that says > you must be forced to carry sources, just supply them (for a price > that you can name) if somebody demands them. 3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following: a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.) > This means you can say ``OK, I'll get you the sources for $5000, b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or, > or you can get them yourselves for free from ftp.gnu.org''. Presuming that they incorporate your changes in the standard distribution of whatever software you are modifying. If they don't like your changes, or don't carry them, then you have to carry them yourself. > Why do so many people blow this GPL issue out of proportion? There's > so much FUD about it that you'd think somebody has a hidden agenda. Including the FUD that comes from reading the Preamble and not the license itself? 8-). http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html (Legally excerpted for educational purposes). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 14:36:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17400 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:36:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17392 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:36:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA16015; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:36:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208152613.046278a0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 15:29:22 -0700 To: "Jasper O'Malley" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990208133546.04530e80@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:07 PM 2/8/99 -0600, Jasper O'Malley wrote: >But by doing so, you negate your own arguments to this point. By your own >line of reasoning, BSD code that's integrated into GPLed projects isn't >developmentally dead; it's just entered a proprietary product, more or >less. Unfortunately, it's not proprietary; it's something significantly different. It's part of a product whose purpose is to destroy the market for commercial products. >If someone snarks BSD code and sticks it in a commercial product, >you don't get the benefit of future development unless they voluntarily >release their proprietary code additions. Likewise, if you simply consider >all GPLed products "dead," I fail to see how incorporating BSD code >into GPLed projects differs from incorporating BSD code into proprietary >projects whose source code will never see the public light of day. I wouldn't call them "dead;" I'd call them "killers." They'd like to kill both "evil" commercial software and those annoying BSDers who support it. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 14:36:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA17409 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:36:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA17394 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 14:36:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA16012; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:36:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208134903.00bd9320@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 13:49:36 -0700 To: Martin Cracauer From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: 100Mbit ethernet card comparision Cc: Martin Cracauer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990208205534.A9430@cons.org> References: <4.1.19990208120931.04582e90@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990208115114.0457c800@mail.lariat.org> <19990208145325.A8384@cons.org> <4.1.19990208115114.0457c800@mail.lariat.org> <19990208200523.A9112@cons.org> <4.1.19990208120931.04582e90@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:55 PM 2/8/99 +0100, Martin Cracauer wrote: >Yes, but throughput is mimimized. Ah.... I see. I was looking at your CPU usage figures and thinking that the first column indicated throughput. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 15:05:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA20853 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:05:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (baerenklau.de.freebsd.org [195.185.195.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20837 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:05:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id AAA09955 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:05:44 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by paula.panke.de.freebsd.org (8.9.1/8.8.8) id XAA54961; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:59:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from wosch) Message-ID: <19990208235956.41109@panke.de.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:59:56 +0100 From: Wolfram Schneider To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: 10.000 Bug reports Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I expect the 10.000th Problem Report this week. Current number is 9970 (Mon, 8 Feb 99 22:41:12 +0000 (GMT)) -- Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 15:14:53 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22006 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:14:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA21983 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:14:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.2/8.9.2) id BAA83872; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 01:13:20 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 01:13:20 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: Wolfram Schneider Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 10.000 Bug reports Message-ID: <19990209011319.J96974@shale.csir.co.za> References: <19990208235956.41109@panke.de.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990208235956.41109@panke.de.freebsd.org>; from Wolfram Schneider on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:59:56PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:59:56PM +0100, Wolfram Schneider wrote: > I expect the 10.000th Problem Report this week. > Current number is 9970 (Mon, 8 Feb 99 22:41:12 +0000 (GMT)) What's the prize... ;-) -Jeremy -- | "Come home my prodigal son, come home and lets be one, --+-- don't want to see you cry, don't make me tell you why, | you've lived in a house with me, my blood has set you free, | in the world you'll surely die, nothing else will satisfy." -MIC To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 15:31:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23124 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:31:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cis.ohio-state.edu (mail.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.115.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23118 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:31:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cmcurtin@cis.ohio-state.edu) Received: from gold.cis.ohio-state.edu (gold.cis.ohio-state.edu [164.107.112.16]) by cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA27247; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:30:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from cmcurtin@localhost) by gold.cis.ohio-state.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA29855; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:30:34 -0500 (EST) To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) References: <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990208125530.X86778@freebie.lemis.com> From: Matt Curtin Date: 08 Feb 1999 18:30:34 -0500 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Mon, 8 Feb 1999 12:55:30 +1030" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > And people are making more money out of GPL software than Berkeley > Licence software. Wow. That's a pretty bold statement, given the inclusion of Berkeley-licensed code in essentially every commercial Unix implementation and the amount of money that Sun, et al, are making. Got figures? -- Matt Curtin cmcurtin@interhack.net http://www.interhack.net/people/cmcurtin/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 15:33:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23484 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:33:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA23477 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:33:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA16756; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:33:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990208163219.044c9810@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:32:41 -0700 To: Wolfram Schneider , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: 10.000 Bug reports In-Reply-To: <19990208235956.41109@panke.de.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good; that means all the bugs must be gone now. ;-) --Brett At 11:59 PM 2/8/99 +0100, Wolfram Schneider wrote: >I expect the 10.000th Problem Report this week. >Current number is 9970 (Mon, 8 Feb 99 22:41:12 +0000 (GMT)) > >-- >Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/ > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 15:42:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA24410 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:42:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA24379 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:41:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA00633; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:40:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:40:21 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: Jeremy Lea cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 10.000 Bug reports In-Reply-To: <19990209011319.J96974@shale.csir.co.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Jeremy Lea wrote: > On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:59:56PM +0100, Wolfram Schneider wrote: > > I expect the 10.000th Problem Report this week. > > Current number is 9970 (Mon, 8 Feb 99 22:41:12 +0000 (GMT)) > > What's the prize... The winner will be responsible for closing all of the previous 9,999 that are still open. > ;-) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 15:52:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25589 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:52:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA25576 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 15:52:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA08623; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:53:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd008567; Mon Feb 8 16:53:07 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA29019; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:52:38 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902082352.QAA29019@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: New CODA release To: gsutter@pobox.com (Gregory Sutter) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:52:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990208013607.F27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> from "Gregory Sutter" at Feb 8, 99 01:36:07 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > - From an economical point of view, the GPL has a negative effect over > > capitalism, and will eventually have some effect on employment (I'm not > > kidding, I'll have to write a dissertation about this, but I haven't > > found the time). The BSD license doesn't have this effect. > > I don't think it will have a negative effect on employment. We'll just > have to redefine employment to include net-style work. The core team > and several others are practically employed for the project anyway, > and the license doesn't appear to make a difference, as people do the > same thing for other free projects such as Linux and Apache. He said "some effect on employment". He didn't say "negative", but in truth, the implication is there. Here's why: The GPL is an instrument of the FSF instrumentality, and has as its intended consequences those outlined in the GNU Manifesto. If the GNU Manifesto is to be believed, the intent is to reduce the potential source of software related revenue to: o Work for hire/Job shop work o Support/Integration services (c.v. Red Hat/Caldera) o Communal "large projects" that are funded by groups of interested parties (c.v. Cygnus). And to specifically disallow: o Proprietary source development o Profit from fee based distribution The upshot of this is the death of the professional programmer as a career in all but exceptional cases (communal development); that's because it's impossible to amortize expensive development costs over the lifetime of a product, if someone can take your code and undercut your price. The death of the professional programmer is the death of real architecture work, and the death of complex systems (which require a professional programmer to implement). I also believe that few people will want to go through four years (or more) of college to become the software equivalent of a day laborer. So yeah, if you ask me, in the phrase "some effect on employment", the effect is negative. I'm constantly taken aback by the number of people who subscribe to the GPL as an instrument, without understanding the full ramifications of it, or without having read the GNU Manifesto, or investigated the instrumentality that created the instrument. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 16:19:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA00917 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:19:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA00910 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:18:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05261; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:18:50 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd005216; Mon Feb 8 17:18:44 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01928; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:18:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902090018.RAA01928@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:18:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jooji@webnology.com, brett@lariat.org, grog@lemis.com, pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, gsutter@pobox.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Feb 8, 99 04:06:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Yes, but realize there that people who use the BSD license are making a > > rational decision to give away valuable work. People who use GPL simply > > don't want anyone else to take their valuable, freely-given work, close > > the development, add proprietary extensions, and make gobs of money. > > If that was really their only motivation, they'd use something > non-contagious. The contagion element of the GPL buys the developer > nothing; it's there solely to prevent other people from making money > from their own hard work. Ugh. People really need to read the thing, and the manifesto, more carefully. The reasoning behind putting something out under the GPL is force the contagion. They want the contagion, since it means they can benefit from the changes others make to their code, since the contaigin forces them to give the modified code back to the original author (if the author asks for it). A side effect of the contagion is that it is a two edged sword: once someone gives you GPL'ed modifications and you roll them in, you *can't* relicense the code under another license, if you include the modifications. This is the downside that people don't see until they graduate and have worked as a wage-slave for someone else, and find that they can't use their own code to start their own company because the code is inextricably tied up. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 16:27:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA01673 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:27:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA01668 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:27:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.210.87]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990209002743.UVBC682101.mta1-rme@wocker> for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:27:43 +1300 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:28:00 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: 10.000 Bug reports Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz References: <4.1.19990208163219.044c9810@mail.lariat.org> In-reply-to: <19990208234213.CPD678125.mta2-rme@wocker> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990209002743.UVBC682101.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org originally sent to questions instead of chat. sorry. On 9 Feb 99, at 12:41, Dan Langille wrote: > On 8 Feb 99, at 16:32, Brett Glass wrote: > > > Good; that means all the bugs must be gone now. ;-) > > Or, as one CEO was heard to say: > > "It must be a really buggy system if there's that many found. Look at > Apple, they never issue bug fixes. It must be really bug free". -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 16:45:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03927 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:45:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03919 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:45:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18110; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:45:42 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd017982; Mon Feb 8 17:45:36 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA04714; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:45:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902090045.RAA04714@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 00:45:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, licia@o-o.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <2620.918495440@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 8, 99 09:37:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It's simple. I recommend the 2-clause Berkeley license with the following > > additional clause: > > > > Neither this code, nor any derivative work based on this code, may be > > published under a license that conditions its use upon the publication > > of source code. > > No offense, but this is unwise. Either you're for absolute freedom of > movement or you're against it, and the whole beauty of the 2 clause > BSD license is that it's simple and specifically does NOT attempt to > place undue restrictions upon reuse. That last paragraph there is > very legally ambiguous ("publication" is a very loose term which any > lawyer could make legal hash out of) and only obfuscates the license > for what is probably zero legal gain. I honestly do not and cannot > recommend that anyone use a license other than the 2 clause Berkeley > license, unmodified and unmolested in any way. Its very simplicity is > a precise and deliberate part of its attractiveness in the first > place. Start mucking with it and the GPL, with all its good > intentions and mountains of legaese, is the next stop in the road. The ability to add a GPL-type viral clause to BSD licensed code is precisely why FreeBSD has not updated it's version of dbm: See: http://www.sleepycat.com/license.net Here is the relevent piece: * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions * are met: * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. * 3. Redistributions in any form must be accompanied by information on * how to obtain complete source code for the DB software and any * accompanying software that uses the DB software. The source code * must either be included in the distribution or be available for no * more than the cost of distribution plus a nominal fee, and must be * freely redistributable under reasonable conditions. For an * executable file, complete source code means the source code for all * modules it contains. It does not mean source code for modules or * files that typically accompany the operating system on which the * executable file runs, e.g., standard library modules or system * header files. In other words, it's the GPL's "no other restrictions clause" that keeps BSD licensed code from being virulized, not anything inherent in the act of virulization, or an inherent conflict with the BSD license. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 16:47:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04141 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:47:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp (rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp [133.34.17.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04131 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 16:47:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tanimura@naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp) Received: from rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp (8.9.1a/3.7W-Naklab-2.1-19981120) with ESMTP id JAA34421; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 09:47:39 +0900 (JST) Message-Id: <199902090047.JAA34421@rina.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp> To: wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 10.000 Bug reports From: Seigo TANIMURA In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:59:56 +0100" References: <19990208235956.41109@panke.de.freebsd.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.70 on Emacs 19.34.1 / Mule 2.3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 09:47:38 +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:59:56 +0100, Wolfram Schneider said: wosch> I expect the 10.000th Problem Report this week. wosch> Current number is 9970 (Mon, 8 Feb 99 22:41:12 +0000 (GMT)) Is the PR database 10k-compliant? Seigo TANIMURA |M1 Nakagawa Lab, Dept of Electronics & CS =========================|Faculty of Engineering, Yokohama National Univ Powered by SIEMENS, |http://www.naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp/~tanimura/ FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT |http://www.sakura.ne.jp/~tcarrot/ (16th Jan 1999) & muesli.|tanimura@naklab.dnj.ynu.ac.jp tcarrot@sakuramail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 17:21:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08424 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:21:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08418 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:21:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA00783; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:51:25 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id LAA52467; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:51:22 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:51:22 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jasper O'Malley" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Message-ID: <19990209115122.D86778@freebie.lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990208133546.04530e80@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990208152613.046278a0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208152613.046278a0@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 03:29:22PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 8 February 1999 at 15:29:22 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:07 PM 2/8/99 -0600, Jasper O'Malley wrote: > >> But by doing so, you negate your own arguments to this point. By your own >> line of reasoning, BSD code that's integrated into GPLed projects isn't >> developmentally dead; it's just entered a proprietary product, more or >> less. > > Unfortunately, it's not proprietary; it's something significantly > different. It's part of a product whose purpose is to destroy > the market for commercial products. If I were interested enough, I would ask you to step back two or three steps and explain your view of the marketplace. It's obviously so radically different from that of most of us that it's part of our difficulty understanding you. But then, I'm not interested enough. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 17:23:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08814 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:23:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08804 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:23:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA00810; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:53:32 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id LAA52483; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:53:31 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:53:30 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Matt Curtin Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Message-ID: <19990209115330.E86778@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199902071900.LAA09317@kithrup.com> <36BE1B25.653A5341@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990207162848.L27505@orcrist.mediacity.com> <36BE3DEC.433E8A2E@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> <19990208125530.X86778@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Matt Curtin on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 06:30:34PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 8 February 1999 at 18:30:34 -0500, Matt Curtin wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: > >> And people are making more money out of GPL software than Berkeley >> Licence software. > > Wow. That's a pretty bold statement, given the inclusion of > Berkeley-licensed code in essentially every commercial Unix > implementation and the amount of money that Sun, et al, are making. > > Got figures? I've already retracted that after somebody pointed out that System V is about 50% BSD code, and that just about every TCP/IP stack includes at least some BSD code. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 17:24:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08903 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:24:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA08893 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 17:24:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19458; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:24:32 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd019185; Mon Feb 8 18:24:21 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA15254; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:23:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902090123.SAA15254@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 01:23:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, lcremean@tidalwave.net, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, licia@o-o.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990209055655.P86778@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 9, 99 05:56:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Why should incorporating it into Linux be worse than incorporating it > into System V? That's where the greatest proportion of the BSD code > has gone. I just checked my hard drive, and found that my BSD code is *not* gone. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 18:09:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14516 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:09:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ratatosk.assetfactory.com (lightwave-outpost.com [199.108.32.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14509 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:09:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from moof@ratatosk.assetfactory.com) From: moof@ratatosk.assetfactory.com Received: (from root@localhost) by ratatosk.assetfactory.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id VAA04027 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:32:06 -0800 Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:32:06 -0800 Message-Id: <199902090532.VAA04027@ratatosk.assetfactory.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: new freebsd news site Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.roms.cx - new freebsd news website, updated daily. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 18:14:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15469 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:14:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15464 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:14:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id SAA17598 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:14:42 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id SAA24120 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:14:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:13:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Applixware News ? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone here have any news about the mid February release of Applixware? Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 18:28:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA17498 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:28:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA17489 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:28:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.210.87]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990209022950.BPCX678125.mta2-rme@wocker> for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:29:50 +1300 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:29:11 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: new freebsd news site Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz In-reply-to: <199902090532.VAA04027@ratatosk.assetfactory.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990209022950.BPCX678125.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 Feb 99, at 21:32, moof@ratatosk.assetfactory.co wrote: > http://www.roms.cx - new freebsd news website, updated daily. Don't bother. It's spam. Nothing to do with freebsd. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 18:46:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA19775 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:46:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA19769 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:46:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26492; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:46:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 18:46:51 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: moof@ratatosk.assetfactory.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new freebsd news site Message-ID: <19990208184650.C23702@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <199902090532.VAA04027@ratatosk.assetfactory.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <199902090532.VAA04027@ratatosk.assetfactory.com>; from moof@ratatosk.assetfactory.com on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 09:32:06PM -0800 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 09:32:06PM -0800, moof@ratatosk.assetfactory.com wrote: > http://www.roms.cx - new freebsd news website, updated daily. This is untrue; the site redirects you to their advertisement for some kind of towel that gives you a tan. Fscking spammer. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter My reality check just bounced. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 19:11:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22222 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:11:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22208 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 19:11:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-71-83.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.71.83]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA21879; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:11:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA06697; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:29:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: brett@lariat.org Cc: wosch@panke.de.freebsd.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 10.000 Bug reports In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 08 Feb 1999 16:32:41 -0700" <4.1.19990208163219.044c9810@mail.lariat.org> References: <4.1.19990208163219.044c9810@mail.lariat.org> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990208222907O.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 22:29:07 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 33 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ports count too. They aren't bugs. Well, most of them aren't... ;-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net From: Brett Glass > > Good; that means all the bugs must be gone now. ;-) > > --Brett > > At 11:59 PM 2/8/99 +0100, Wolfram Schneider wrote: > > >I expect the 10.000th Problem Report this week. > >Current number is 9970 (Mon, 8 Feb 99 22:41:12 +0000 (GMT)) > > > >-- > >Wolfram Schneider http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/ > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 21:14:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA05051 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:14:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05046 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:14:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA04829; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 21:14:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Gregory Sutter cc: moof@ratatosk.assetfactory.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new freebsd news site In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 08 Feb 1999 18:46:51 PST." <19990208184650.C23702@orcrist.mediacity.com> Date: Mon, 08 Feb 1999 21:14:24 -0800 Message-ID: <4826.918537264@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org assetfactory.com has now been blacklisted. > On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 09:32:06PM -0800, moof@ratatosk.assetfactory.com wrot e: > > http://www.roms.cx - new freebsd news website, updated daily. > > This is untrue; the site redirects you to their advertisement for > some kind of towel that gives you a tan. Fscking spammer. > > Greg > -- > Gregory S. Sutter My reality check just bounced. > mailto:gsutter@pobox.com > http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ > PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 22:35:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA14339 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:35:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA14332 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:35:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (root@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id WAA21624 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:35:45 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.9.1+UW98.09/8.9.1+UW98.09) with ESMTP id WAA05614 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:35:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 8 Feb 1999 22:35:11 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Win32 Kerberos Client Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know of a Win32 Kerberos client that I can run on an NT box at school? It needs to be able to run without being "installed" by an NT admin. Fat lot of good kerberos/ssh does me when I have to telnet to a campus unix box in the clear in order to rlogin/slogin to my home unix box securely. :) Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 23:33:49 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18746 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:33:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA18739 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:33:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id IAA29814 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:33:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 65F431516; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:16:06 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:16:06 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Message-ID: <19990209081606.A3013@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.1.19990208123300.04582220@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990208133546.04530e80@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208133546.04530e80@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 01:38:42PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5026 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Brett Glass: > hypocritical. The GPL seeks to stamp out exactly the sort of free exchange > of ideas (and code!) that I (and most of the folks present here) advocate, Not exactly. The GPL wants to _force_ you to share it, whether you want it or not. That's not freedom in my book and why I don't like it. I've been involved in some discussions about the GPL in the french hierarchy fr.* and that was what I told GPL proponents. At least the BSD licence is consistent with its use of 'freedom'... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #69: Mon Jan 18 02:02:12 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 8 23:39:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA19247 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:39:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA19242 for ; Mon, 8 Feb 1999 23:39:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 29525 invoked by uid 1000); 9 Feb 1999 07:39:47 -0000 Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:39:47 +0100 From: Andreas Braukmann To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) Message-ID: <19990209083947.G1047@paert.tse-online.de> References: <19990209055655.P86778@freebie.lemis.com> <199902090123.SAA15254@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <199902090123.SAA15254@usr01.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Feb 09, 1999 at 01:23:13AM +0000 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 09, 1999 at 01:23:13AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Why should incorporating it into Linux be worse than incorporating it > > into System V? That's where the greatest proportion of the BSD code > > has gone. > I just checked my hard drive, and found that my BSD code is *not* > gone. cool, ... and soooo short ;) ==> fortune database ... -ab -- : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 04:24:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA10124 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:24:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA10107 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:24:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id NAA00937; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:24:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new freebsd news site References: <19990209022950.BPCX678125.mta2-rme@wocker> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 09 Feb 1999 13:24:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Dan Langille"'s message of "Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:29:11 +1300" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dan Langille" writes: > On 8 Feb 99, at 21:32, moof@ratatosk.assetfactory.co wrote: > > http://www.roms.cx - new freebsd news website, updated daily. > Don't bother. It's spam. Nothing to do with freebsd. What did you expect from a .cx address? DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 04:58:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA12511 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:58:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA12506 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 04:58:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.nws.net) Received: from pechter.nws.net (bg-tc-ppp730.monmouth.com [209.191.63.166]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA24651; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:57:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.nws.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) id HAA05945; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:55:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199902091255.HAA05945@pechter.nws.net> Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) In-Reply-To: <36BE5007.53F1C198@softweyr.com> from Wes Peters at "Feb 7, 1999 7:46:31 pm" To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 07:55:18 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-to: pechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Wes Peters wrote: > > Yeah, I'm so manly I converted her. > > (From VMS to FreeBSD. To the best of my knowlege, she was not and > is not a lesbian.) I've got one observation... Interesting how many Ex-VMS types move to FreeBSD instead of Linux. Anyone have any idea as to what that reason is... I've got mine -- the fact that VMS is an operating system rather than a kernel and a different distribution. I've been very surprised how many current DEC-er-Compaq folks are running Linux now. I suspect the Alpha support is the reason why. Bill (waiting for FreeVMS...) --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 06:14:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA19212 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:14:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA19207 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:14:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA10853; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:13:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990209061357.A10821@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:13:57 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Gregory Sutter Cc: moof@ratatosk.assetfactory.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new freebsd news site Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990208184650.C23702@orcrist.mediacity.com> <4826.918537264@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4826.918537264@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 09:14:24PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 09:14:24PM -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > assetfactory.com has now been blacklisted. Thank you -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 06:42:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22590 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:42:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cs.Technion.AC.IL (csa.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA22584 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:41:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.csa (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by cs.Technion.AC.IL (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id QAA14118; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:43:28 +0200 (IST) Received: from localhost by csd.csa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA15333; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:43:19 +0200 Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:43:19 +0200 (IST) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: pechter@shell.monmouth.com cc: Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) In-Reply-To: <199902091255.HAA05945@pechter.nws.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Bill Pechter wrote: > > Wes Peters wrote: > > > > Yeah, I'm so manly I converted her. > > > > (From VMS to FreeBSD. To the best of my knowlege, she was not and > > is not a lesbian.) > > I've got one observation... > > > Interesting how many Ex-VMS types move to FreeBSD instead of Linux. > Anyone have any idea as to what that reason is... > > I've got mine -- the fact that VMS is an operating system rather than > a kernel and a different distribution. I don't think so. At least that's not my reason. I think it's a matter of market segment it aims at: VMS aims at servers that need to run without a crash for years, and that's what FreeBSD excels at as well. > > I've been very surprised how many current DEC-er-Compaq folks are > running Linux now. I suspect the Alpha support is the reason why. Guess so. They even market OS-less AlphaServers now as "Linux-ready" AlphaServers (see recent press releases/cutomer updates on www.digital.com). Perhaps when the FreeBSD/axp ports is in good enough shape they should be convinced to call these FreeBSD-ready??? > > Bill > (waiting for FreeVMS...) Or to make the money to pay for the non free one :-) > --- > Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a > villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller > bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 06:45:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA22956 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:45:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA22948 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:45:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA11043; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:45:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990209064519.A11017@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:45:19 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Feb. BAFUG headcount Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 06:47:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA23289 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:47:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [208.221.12.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA23273 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:47:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA04663; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:45:22 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902091445.GAA04663@implode.root.com> To: Nadav Eiron cc: pechter@shell.monmouth.com, Wes Peters , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 09 Feb 1999 16:43:19 +0200." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 06:45:22 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> > Wes Peters wrote: >> > >> > Yeah, I'm so manly I converted her. >> > >> > (From VMS to FreeBSD. To the best of my knowlege, she was not and >> > is not a lesbian.) >> >> I've got one observation... >> >> >> Interesting how many Ex-VMS types move to FreeBSD instead of Linux. >> Anyone have any idea as to what that reason is... >> >> I've got mine -- the fact that VMS is an operating system rather than >> a kernel and a different distribution. > >I don't think so. At least that's not my reason. I think it's a matter of >market segment it aims at: VMS aims at servers that need to run without a >crash for years, and that's what FreeBSD excels at as well. For what it's worth, I was a long-time VAX/VMS guy prior to getting involved with BSD Unix. Several other core members also have significant amounts of VMS in their history. I'm not sure this says anything in particular, but I think it's interesting nonetheless. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 08:03:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA02394 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:03:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA02379 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:02:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 29861 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1999 16:02:50 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1999 16:02:50 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA10281; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:02:48 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902091602.LAA10281@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: New CODA release In-Reply-To: <199902082352.QAA29019@usr06.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Feb 8, 99 11:52:37 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:02:48 -0500 (EST) Cc: gsutter@pobox.com, pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said: > > I'm constantly taken aback by the number of people who subscribe to > the GPL as an instrument, without understanding the full ramifications > of it, or without having read the GNU Manifesto, or investigated the > instrumentality that created the instrument. > I agree... It seems that alot of people (who subscribe to GPL) tend have made it into their religion well before they have thought about and realized how insidious it is. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 08:11:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03308 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:11:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA03303 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:11:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA04429; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:05:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from s204m82.isp.whistle.com(207.76.204.82) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpduC4423; Tue Feb 9 16:04:57 1999 Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:04:37 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer X-Sender: julian@s204m82.isp.whistle.com To: announce@bafug.org cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Feb. BAFUG headcount In-Reply-To: <19990209064519.A11017@mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org obviously I'll be there. julian On Tue, 9 Feb 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > Heads up! > > > I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays > meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to > get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. > > Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. > > > > Josef > > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > > ## This is the BAFUG Announce List ## > ** To subscribe or unsubscribe send comands to majordomo@bafug.org ** > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 08:12:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03547 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:12:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA03539 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:12:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 10682 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1999 16:12:36 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1999 16:12:36 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA10722; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:12:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902091612.LAA10722@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <199902081927.LAA20925@kithrup.com> from Sean Eric Fagan at "Feb 8, 99 11:27:56 am" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:12:36 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Eric Fagan said: > > Oh, and I suggest all of you whiners -- Brett the Idiot in particular -- take > a look at BSDi's commercial success vs. Caldera's or Red Hat's commercial > success. BSDi took the so-called "free" software, and made it proprietary, > and is languishing. And yet Caldera and Red Hat, which are using the > apparantly anti-commercial GPL'd code, and are flourishing. > You are misreading the difference, and it is obvious: free source availability. BSDI isn't cheap anymore. GPL is not the difference, other than companies like red-hat acting like leaches from the bright eyed and bushy tailed young developers who don't have the sense that they'll have to earn livings later in their lives. CDROM distributors have pretty much a free ride, and don't fund development. Walnut Creek is doing some good by funding a real-free development, and one has to applaud their support. > > Idiots. > Yep, those fools who are doing the work for free, without ever the chance of being able to leverage their own genius, given the viral effects from bugfixes from the net. The vast majority of people out there aren't very smart, and GPL demonstrates that. This kind of reminds me of young people who have realized the benefits of the results of their puberty. They have lots of fun playing a risky and losing game -- and it takes them a few years to realize how stupid they have been. When the reality of understanding how the world works sets in, then they'll quit giving it away for free. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 08:14:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA03761 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:14:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA03750 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:14:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 12544 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1999 16:14:12 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1999 16:14:12 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA10727; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:14:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902091614.LAA10727@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990208121541.0457d5d0@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Feb 8, 99 12:18:33 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:14:12 -0500 (EST) Cc: lcremean@tidalwave.net, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, licia@o-o.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said: > At 02:10 PM 2/8/99 -0500, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > >Brett, you're missing the point yet again. The BSD license as we see it is > >free to _all_ comers, no matter what bent they may be -- GPL, proprietary, > >even (*shudder*) Microsoft. Putting a "poison pill" in the license would > >make it just as distasteful to the champions of free software as the GPL is > >to corporations. Like Jordan said, this is one of the great things about the > >license we have now; it doesn't assume that one group of users is inherently > >"evil". > > I don't see it as a matter of good and evil but as a matter of basic fairness. > I don't think it's good to offer the code on one set of terms to users and > on another (very onerous) set of terms to commercial developers. I'd like to see > some ideas about how to avoid this! For example, should I write a whizzy > new driver for FreeBSD, I'd hate to see it incorporated into Linux when > my intent is to promote BSD-licensed software. > Just make sure you add an advertising clause, and/or explicitly allow people who redistribute binary code to choose to redistribute source. Also, make the code clean, and it certainly wouldn't fit in :-). -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 08:17:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA04177 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:17:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA04169 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 08:17:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 16026 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1999 16:17:20 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1999 16:17:20 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA10735; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:17:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902091617.LAA10735@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <19990208141042.A2652@tidalwave.net> from Lee Cremeans at "Feb 8, 99 02:10:42 pm" To: lcremean@tidalwave.net Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:17:20 -0500 (EST) Cc: brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, licia@o-o.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lee Cremeans said: > On Mon, Feb 08, 1999 at 11:37:01AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > At 09:37 AM 2/8/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > I see your point about the language. Still I strongly believe that, > > if we do not place a "poison pill" against the GPL in our licenses, > > we will see the GPL subsume all else. If you were to add something > > that would prevent open source code from being relicensed under > > the GPL, how would you phrase it? > > > > Brett, you're missing the point yet again. The BSD license as we see it is > free to _all_ comers, no matter what bent they may be -- GPL, proprietary, > even (*shudder*) Microsoft. Putting a "poison pill" in the license would > make it just as distasteful to the champions of free software as the GPL is > to corporations. Like Jordan said, this is one of the great things about the > license we have now; it doesn't assume that one group of users is inherently > "evil". > The standard BSD license is already poison pilled. In fact, it is quite fair by requiring attribution. Just be sure to provide an extra 20-30K of CDROM space for attribution. :-). One other reason for not publicizing the use of BSD code, is the advertisment clause. That is actually a disadvantage. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 10:11:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17124 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:11:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17119 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:11:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA04730; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:10:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990209110549.0457f100@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 11:10:35 -0700 To: dyson@iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New CODA release Cc: gsutter@pobox.com, pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902091602.LAA10281@y.dyson.net> References: <199902082352.QAA29019@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:02 AM 2/9/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >I agree... It seems that alot of people (who subscribe to GPL) tend have >made it into their religion well before they have thought about and realized >how insidious it is. So, the question remains: What can we do? What does it PAY to do? I wish to have options other than Microsoft or GPLed compilers, utilities, etc. Commercial products are disappearing as Microsoft and the GPL enter and destroy markets, and there's only a limited amount of stuff available under BSD-type licenses. (What's more, more of this code seems to be falling prey to the GPL virus daily.) How can I maximize my chances of having a real choice in the future? The twin pincers of Microsoft and the GPL seem destined to cut off all else except the relatively small amount of BSD-licensed software that's out there. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 10:18:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17796 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:18:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17784 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:18:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.210.87]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990209181848.QQF682101.mta1-rme@wocker>; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:18:48 +1300 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:19:21 +1300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: new freebsd news site Reply-to: junkmale@xtra.co.nz CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: "Dan Langille"'s message of "Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:29:11 +1300" In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990209181848.QQF682101.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 9 Feb 99, at 13:24, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Dan Langille" writes: > > On 8 Feb 99, at 21:32, moof@ratatosk.assetfactory.co wrote: > > > http://www.roms.cx - new freebsd news website, updated daily. > > Don't bother. It's spam. Nothing to do with freebsd. > > What did you expect from a .cx address? Oh, I dunno. What do you expect to find at http://www.freebsd.freebsddiary.cx? -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 10:39:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA20144 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:39:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from consuella.vortex4.net (consuella.vortex4.net [140.174.185.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA20138 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 10:39:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bmath@vortex4.net) Received: (qmail 22592 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1999 18:39:13 -0000 Received: from arthur.vortex4.net (HELO localhost) (140.174.185.252) by consuella.vortex4.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1999 18:39:13 -0000 To: announce@bafug.org, jgrosch@mooseriver.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Feb. BAFUG headcount In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 9 Feb 1999 06:45:19 -0800" <19990209064519.A11017@mooseriver.com> References: <19990209064519.A11017@mooseriver.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on Emacs 20.2 / Mule 3.0 (MOMIJINOGA) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990209103858P.bmath@vortex4.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 10:38:58 -0800 From: Brian Matheson X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 2 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Count me in. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 11:02:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22901 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:02:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22895 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:02:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA02841; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:03:17 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd002772; Tue Feb 9 12:03:11 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA16493; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:01:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902091901.MAA16493@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Win32 Kerberos Client To: jcwells@u.washington.edu Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:01:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Jason C. Wells" at Feb 8, 99 10:35:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Does anyone know of a Win32 Kerberos client that I can run on an NT box at > school? It needs to be able to run without being "installed" by an NT > admin. > > Fat lot of good kerberos/ssh does me when I have to telnet to a campus > unix box in the clear in order to rlogin/slogin to my home unix box > securely. :) Contact Jeremy Allison of SAMBA. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 11:03:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA22978 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:03:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns.ge.com (ns.ge.com [192.35.39.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA22973 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:03:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Paul.Bauer@amermsx.med.ge.com) Received: from thomas.ge.com (thomas-o.ge.com [10.47.28.21]) by ns.ge.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA04279 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:03:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from gemed.med.ge.com (gemed.med.ge.com [3.7.12.4]) by thomas.ge.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id OAA07825 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:03:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from uswaumsxbhmedge.med.ge.com by gemed.med.ge.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA00665; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:04:24 -0600 Received: by uswaumsxbhmedge.med.ge.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <1PVWA34D>; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:03:00 -0600 Message-ID: <6791DA0AB4B0D21199490060B0672B341ABF21@USWAUMSX01MEDGE> From: "Bauer, Paul (MED)" To: "'freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: new FreeBSD news website Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:02:59 -0600 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org TANTOWEL(r) THE SELF-TANNING TOWELETTE LOOK GOOD... FEEL GOOD... STAY HEALTHY !!! that is what you get when you go the "new freebsd news website, updated daily" so save your time. Paul Bauer Global Technology Engineering Services X-ray division GE Medical Systems Paul.Bauer@amermsx.med.ge.com (414)548-2018 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 11:11:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA23735 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:11:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA23730 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:11:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 25867 invoked from network); 9 Feb 1999 19:11:47 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 9 Feb 1999 19:11:47 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA60370; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:11:41 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902091911.OAA60370@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: New CODA release In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990209110549.0457f100@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Feb 9, 99 11:10:35 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:11:41 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, tlambert@primenet.com, gsutter@pobox.com, pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said: > At 11:02 AM 2/9/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > >I agree... It seems that alot of people (who subscribe to GPL) tend have > >made it into their religion well before they have thought about and realized > >how insidious it is. > > So, the question remains: What can we do? What does it PAY to do? I wish > to have options other than Microsoft or GPLed compilers, utilities, etc. > Commercial products are disappearing as Microsoft and the GPL enter and > destroy markets, and there's only a limited amount of stuff available > under BSD-type licenses. (What's more, more of this code seems to be > falling prey to the GPL virus daily.) > > How can I maximize my chances of having a real choice in the future? The > twin pincers of Microsoft and the GPL seem destined to cut off all else > except the relatively small amount of BSD-licensed software that's > out there. > It seems that there are two very insidious forces. IMO, it also appears that we need to realize that the most effective force for sanity will be when the market starts drying up. When the indoctorinated programmers start finding that they need to feed their families, and that the zealots and profiteers have played a terrible number on them, then we'll start seeing changes. There'll always be the under 25 set that don't need to worry about their futures, and in a twisted way, compare themselves with the CDROM manufacturers who are making the money. I sure hope that they eventually realize that the distributors of GPLed code have all of the control that the developers have, without the time investment. (time doesn't equal money for those who are still living off of their parents or living off of grants.) When the commerical market starts drying up, then the not-so-young anymore programmers will stop giving it away like the high school wild girls, and will start realizing that they need to take care of themselves, or be working at McDonald's... Survival will motivate those misled idealistic people to revisit their mistakes. Take a look at the majority of the '60's people who have had to grow up -- the change and evolution takes time, but only after significant damage :-(. In the meantime, all we can do is to plant the ideas in their heads, and hope that the ideas grow into something better than the poison that is in there right now. We cannot control the situation, and simply observe and deal with the folly right now. Each of us is already very gainfully employed, and we all just need to take care of ourselves to maintain our lifestyles and families. GPL isn't taking over the world, but is becoming more significant, only as a side-effect of all of the free labor that has been taken advantage of. The key and eventual reason why GPL will fall in on itself, is that the benefit of working on the code is insignificant (except for those who can work for free, or who are playing a shell game with "support fees"), and the maturity of real products (both commercial and free/non_GPL) due to the experience of the more established developers. Those soon to be ex-GPL developers will have to leave the GPL world, when their child is hungry and crying. It makes no sense to argue that companies who are pressing CDROMs or overcharging for support fees are in the same category as the individual who is really doing the development work. I suspect that in a few years, as the people who are being taken advantage of by the GPL pyramid grow up, they'll still love the idea of free software, but realize that over the years that they have been working on GPLed works, that they haven't really been working on "free software". They'll realize that they had been working on software that is "feeding" those who are overcharging on support contracts or on software that is "feeding" those who are pressing CDROMs, mostly not paying for the meat of the development. There'll always be a market for free and quality commercial software. It is those who are selling themselves short like a promiscuous girl who will continue to be taken advantage of, and continue to be pawns of those who have significant political, economic or other agendas. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 11:16:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA24199 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:16:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA24176 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 11:16:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.50]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA9039; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:14:39 -0500 Message-ID: <36C0895C.1A4C2EB9@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 14:15:40 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert CC: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New CODA release References: <199902082352.QAA29019@usr06.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > ... > > He said "some effect on employment". He didn't say "negative", but > in truth, the implication is there. Here's why: > Basicly correct. I have no doubt about the sign, but rather the "size" of this unemployment, I don't see any reason why it should be limited to kernel development. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 12:11:40 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA00459 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:11:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from destroyer.CS.Berkeley.EDU (destroyer.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.35.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00454 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:11:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bks@destroyer.CS.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from destroyer.CS.Berkeley.EDU (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by destroyer.CS.Berkeley.EDU (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA09577; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:11:26 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199902092011.MAA09577@destroyer.CS.Berkeley.EDU> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: announce@bafug.org cc: Josef Grosch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, eric@transbay.net Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Re: Berkeley BAFUG Meetings, Part II In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 07 Feb 1999 22:00:14 PST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 12:11:26 -0800 From: "Brian K. Shiratsuki" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -------- > On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > ...It is generous of Transbay to let us hold meetings there. > But it will be cool to hold these meetings at UC Berkeley > itself... i think the main difficulty in having meetings at the university would be parking. if most attendees will not need to park, or would be willing to walk several blocks in, i could look into the possibilities here. brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 12:37:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA03649 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:37:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from transbay.net (dns1.transbay.net [209.133.53.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA03633 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:37:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ecsd@transbay.net) Received: from transbay.net (rigel.transbay.net [209.133.53.177]) by transbay.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA20305; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 12:41:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ecsd@transbay.net) Message-ID: <36C09CA5.CF6CE287@transbay.net> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 1999 12:37:57 -0800 From: "Eric C. S. Dynamic" Organization: TransBay.Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Brian K. Shiratsuki" CC: announce@bafug.org, Josef Grosch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, eric@transbay.net Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Re: Berkeley BAFUG Meetings, Part II References: <199902092011.MAA09577@destroyer.CS.Berkeley.EDU> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There is an open-air parking lot 1/4 block West of the intersection of Blake and Telegraph with a capacity of 26 vehicles. In the evening there are only a handful of cars parked there. It is a paid lot, but only checked once a day at about 11AM. If your conscience bothered you enough you could cough up $3. This parking lot is about a softball pitch's distance from the meeting place. -ecsd@transbay.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 13:07:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA07315 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:07:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA07309 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:07:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA00452; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:08:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd029807; Tue Feb 9 14:08:23 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA01631; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:06:00 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902092106.OAA01631@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) To: dyson@iquest.net Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:05:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lcremean@tidalwave.net, brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, licia@o-o.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902091617.LAA10735@y.dyson.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Feb 9, 99 11:17:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The standard BSD license is already poison pilled. In fact, it is quite fair > by requiring attribution. Just be sure to provide an extra 20-30K of CDROM > space for attribution. :-). Wrong. http://sleepycat.com/license.net Only the GPL prevents BSD licensed code from being virulized; other licenses are not so kind as to exclude themselves from contaminating BSD licensed code. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 13:51:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12895 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:51:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12877 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 13:51:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA14235; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:51:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd014024; Tue Feb 9 14:51:29 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA05230; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 14:51:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902092151.OAA05230@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: New CODA release To: dyson@iquest.net Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 21:51:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, tlambert@primenet.com, gsutter@pobox.com, pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902091911.OAA60370@y.dyson.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Feb 9, 99 02:11:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It seems that there are two very insidious forces. Can't resist... must not hit post... must save Enterprise... AIEIEEE! "What's that?" "It's a ``light grenade''." "How's it work?" "When someone picks it up, it disintegrates them!" "Why would they pick it up?" [ Shows label: ``PICK ME UP'' ] "Insidious... isn't it?" Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 15:06:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22314 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:06:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA22298 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 15:06:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA05465; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:36:14 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id JAA69273; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:36:13 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:36:13 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: lcremean@tidalwave.net, brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, licia@o-o.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSD license (was: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release)) Message-ID: <19990210093613.B86778@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990208141042.A2652@tidalwave.net> <199902091617.LAA10735@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199902091617.LAA10735@y.dyson.net>; from John S. Dyson on Tue, Feb 09, 1999 at 11:17:20AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 9 February 1999 at 11:17:20 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > The standard BSD license is already poison pilled. In fact, it is quite fair > by requiring attribution. Just be sure to provide an extra 20-30K of CDROM > space for attribution. :-). Whatever came of the UCB/System V lawsuit about attribution? The BSD-derived System V sources I've seen don't even have the license in them. > One other reason for not publicizing the use of BSD code, is the > advertisment clause. That is actually a disadvantage. It's also vague. On the one hand you have to state that the code includes BSD-derived code, on the other hand you can't use it for advertising. Where's the distinction? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 16:11:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03685 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:11:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA03678 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:11:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 13258 invoked from network); 10 Feb 1999 00:11:04 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 10 Feb 1999 00:11:04 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA61330; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:10:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902100010.TAA61330@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) In-Reply-To: <199902092106.OAA01631@usr02.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Feb 9, 99 09:05:59 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 19:10:59 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, lcremean@tidalwave.net, brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, licia@o-o.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said: > > The standard BSD license is already poison pilled. In fact, it is quite fair > > by requiring attribution. Just be sure to provide an extra 20-30K of CDROM > > space for attribution. :-). > > Wrong. > > http://sleepycat.com/license.net > > Only the GPL prevents BSD licensed code from being virulized; other > licenses are not so kind as to exclude themselves from contaminating > BSD licensed code. > Well, I tend to think in terms of GPL, simply because it is predominant. In the general case of poison pill-ing, you probably have to tune it on a per license basis. Maybe I was wrong in thinking that the context was GPL? -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 16:14:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA04356 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:14:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA04332 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:14:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA05009; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:14:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd004649; Tue Feb 9 17:13:59 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01329; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:13:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902100013.RAA01329@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: BSD license (was: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release)) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:13:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, lcremean@tidalwave.net, brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, licia@o-o.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990210093613.B86778@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 10, 99 09:36:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > One other reason for not publicizing the use of BSD code, is the > > advertisment clause. That is actually a disadvantage. > > It's also vague. On the one hand you have to state that the code > includes BSD-derived code, on the other hand you can't use it for > advertising. Where's the distinction? No. If your advertising mentions features of the code, as opposed to features of your product that happens to include the code, then you have to state where you got the code. You don't *have* to mention features explicitly tied to the code. You also can't use the name to promote the product, e.g.: o Use's Eric Allman's Sendmail program Not vague at all, IMO. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 16:21:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA05123 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:21:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05118 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 16:21:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA08059; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:21:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd007938; Tue Feb 9 17:21:19 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA01583; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 17:20:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902100020.RAA01583@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GPL *again* (was: New CODA release) To: dyson@iquest.net Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 00:20:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, lcremean@tidalwave.net, brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, licia@o-o.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902100010.TAA61330@y.dyson.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Feb 9, 99 07:10:59 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > The standard BSD license is already poison pilled. In fact, it > > > is quite fair by requiring attribution. Just be sure to provide > > > an extra 20-30K of CDROM space for attribution. :-). > > > > Wrong. > > > > http://sleepycat.com/license.net > > > > Only the GPL prevents BSD licensed code from being virulized; other > > licenses are not so kind as to exclude themselves from contaminating > > BSD licensed code. > > Well, I tend to think in terms of GPL, simply because it is predominant. > In the general case of poison pill-ing, you probably have to tune it > on a per license basis. Maybe I was wrong in thinking that the context > was GPL? The problem is that it's the GPL "poison pilled" against the UCB license, not the other way around. As long as that's the case, people can "route around" the GPL's brain damage to destructively license UCB code. That's what the SleepyCat people did to dbm 2.x. I'm not saying that they didn't add significant value; but they licensed the code under a commercially damaging license. A derivative work prepared by a third party would retain the virus, and, further, not be reversible. The only saving grace is that they are actively maintaining the code, so it hasn't floated elsewhere... yet. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 20:19:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05252 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:19:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA05247 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:18:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15710; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:18:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990209201847.C15639@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:18:47 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, eric@transbay.net Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Re: Berkeley BAFUG Meetings, Part II Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <199902092011.MAA09577@destroyer.CS.Berkeley.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199902092011.MAA09577@destroyer.CS.Berkeley.EDU>; from Brian K. Shiratsuki on Tue, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:11:26PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:11:26PM -0800, Brian K. Shiratsuki wrote: > -------- > > On Fri, 5 Feb 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > ...It is generous of Transbay to let us hold meetings there. > > But it will be cool to hold these meetings at UC Berkeley > > itself... > > i think the main difficulty in having meetings at the university would be > parking. if most attendees will not need to park, or would be willing to > walk several blocks in, i could look into the possibilities here. >From what I can see, parking on the campus is murder. One lot I pulled into the other day had a _MIN_ parking fee of $5.00. Needles to say I parked else where. I usually walk in Berkeley. There is parking around Transbay. A couple of block walk will not kill anyone. Sorry guys this is Berkeley, not a shopping mall. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 20:47:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA08304 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:47:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA08299 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:46:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15836; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:46:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990209204647.D15639@mooseriver.com> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 20:46:48 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org, "Brian K. Shiratsuki" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, eric@transbay.net Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Re: Berkeley BAFUG Meetings, Part II Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <199902092011.MAA09577@destroyer.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <36C09CA5.CF6CE287@transbay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <36C09CA5.CF6CE287@transbay.net>; from Eric C. S. Dynamic on Tue, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:37:57PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 09, 1999 at 12:37:57PM -0800, Eric C. S. Dynamic wrote: > There is an open-air parking lot 1/4 block West of the intersection > of Blake and Telegraph with a capacity of 26 vehicles. > In the evening there are only a handful of cars parked there. > > It is a paid lot, but only checked once a day at about 11AM. > If your conscience bothered you enough you could cough up $3. > > This parking lot is about a softball pitch's distance from > the meeting place. Like I said in my earlier email. This is the People's Republic of Berkeley not the wilds of Contra Costa county. Walking is good for you. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 9 23:40:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA25607 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:40:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iserver.itworks.com.au (iserver.itworks.com.au [203.32.61.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25602 for ; Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:40:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gavin@itworks.com.au) Received: from localhost (gavin@localhost) by iserver.itworks.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA05629 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:40:24 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from gavin@itworks.com.au) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:40:24 +1100 (EST) From: Gavin Cameron To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Melbourne, Australia FreeBSD users Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A mailing list has been established for FreeBSD users in Melbourne Australia with the hope of fostering discussion on FreeBSD related matters. You can join the mailing list send an E-mail to majordomo@itworks.com.au and place the text subscribe melb-fbsd in the text of the message Cheers, Gavin Cameron []-----------------------------------+------------------------------------[] | Gavin Cameron | ITworks Consulting | | Ph : 0418 390350 | Suite 100, 85 Grattan Street | | Fax : +61 3 9347 6544 | Carlton, Victoria | | Email : gavin@itworks.com.au | Australia, 3053 | []-----------------------------------+------------------------------------[] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 03:07:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA11789 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:07:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send102.yahoomail.com (send102.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA11783 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:07:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thallgren@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990210110744.28561.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Received: from [131.116.188.217] by send102.yahoomail.com; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:07:44 PST Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:07:44 -0800 (PST) From: Tommy Hallgren Subject: Linus on IRC To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! Linus attended to an IRC chat recently, you can find the log at: http://farcaster.net/linus.html >From the log: Josh Bell: What do you think about the BSD project that is now starting to get more and more support, do you think it will take Linux's hype away, once more and more people learn about the free distributions of BSD? I actually think that they have been going away instead of actually making a comeback. And I think they were interesting projects. What an ignorant and unfair answer! I actually thought that Linus was a sensible and well-informed man. == -- Regards, Tommy Hallgren Briljantg. 31, SE-421 49, V. Frölunda Tel.: 0709 312 404 (GSM) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 03:42:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA13859 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:42:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA13854 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:42:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA63055; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:40:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902101140.DAA63055@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Tommy Hallgren cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linus on IRC In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:07:44 PST." <19990210110744.28561.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 03:40:43 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I can see why he may think that we are not interesting . Linux is enjoying wide popularity and it seems that it is growing every month and it most be a lot of fun trying to make sense out of it 8) Linus also mentioned that the GPL is preventing Linux from splitting apart ... Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 04:42:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA21523 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:42:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA21518 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:42:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA13925 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:42:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902101242.EAA13925@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: GPL vs. BSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:42:52 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OSKit just recently switched to GPL if anyone cares here is the mailing list: ftp://flux.cs.utah.edu/flux/oskit/mail/html/oskit-users/index.html Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 04:46:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA22053 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:46:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from send103.yahoomail.com (send103.yahoomail.com [205.180.60.92]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id EAA22048 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:45:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from thallgren@yahoo.com) Message-ID: <19990210124604.15283.rocketmail@send103.yahoomail.com> Received: from [131.116.188.217] by send103.yahoomail.com; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:46:04 PST Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 04:46:04 -0800 (PST) From: Tommy Hallgren Subject: Re: Linus on IRC To: Amancio Hasty Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ---Amancio Hasty wrote: > Linus also mentioned that the GPL is preventing Linux from splitting > apart ... I know that David S Miller has a CVS-tree that he sometimes tries to merge with Linus' "tree". And then we have mkLinux and LinuxPPC, are both really in Linus' tree? == -- Regards, Tommy Hallgren Briljantg. 31, SE-421 49, V. Frölunda Tel.: 0709 312 404 (GSM) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 05:15:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA24456 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:15:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA24451 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 05:15:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id WAA26842; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:15:27 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36C18649.6B5AF27A@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:14:49 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What's inside your chips? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thought some of you might like this: http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/creatures/index.html -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org Well, as a computer geek, I have to believe in the binary universe. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 06:13:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id GAA01546 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 06:13:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id GAA01540 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 06:13:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.24]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA34E9; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:13:38 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990210110744.28561.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:22:32 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Tommy Hallgren Subject: RE: Linus on IRC Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-Feb-99 Tommy Hallgren wrote: > Linus attended to an IRC chat recently, you can find the log at: > http://farcaster.net/linus.html > > From the log: > > Josh Bell: What do you think about the BSD project that > is now starting to get more and more support, do you think it will > take Linux's hype away, once more and more people learn about the free > distributions of BSD? > > I actually think that they have been going away > instead of actually making a comeback. And I think they were > interesting projects. > > What an ignorant and unfair answer! I actually thought that Linus was > a sensible and well-informed man. Sorry to shatter dreams, but Linus has been ignorant in a lot of ways. He took Andy's Minix sources, changed them to work for Intel chips, discussed this all with Tanenbaum, Andy does however admire the work Linux has done but Linus has been an ungrateful `student'. I think all the attention has in fact gone to his mind, IMHO since everyone has been `praising' the `earth-shattering' work he has done with Linux he has simply grown arrogant. At least that's my perception on the whole issue. We haven't seen (most) of the commiters and core members proclaim they're the best coder(s) out there and they'll even admit making mistakes. This kind of attitude is only reserved for a small number of Linux people I had dealt with... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 07:48:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA13797 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:48:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13751 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:47:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA25297; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:46:24 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36C1A9CF.8B744006@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:46:23 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com CC: Nadav Eiron , pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VAXen in FreeBSD ( was Re: Women in FreeBSD) References: <199902091445.GAA04663@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman wrote: > > >> > Wes Peters wrote: > >> > > >> > Yeah, I'm so manly I converted her. > >> > > >> > (From VMS to FreeBSD. To the best of my knowlege, she was not and > >> > is not a lesbian.) > >> > >> Interesting how many Ex-VMS types move to FreeBSD instead of Linux. > >> Anyone have any idea as to what that reason is... > >> > >> I've got mine -- the fact that VMS is an operating system rather than > >> a kernel and a different distribution. > > > >I don't think so. At least that's not my reason. I think it's a matter of > >market segment it aims at: VMS aims at servers that need to run without a > >crash for years, and that's what FreeBSD excels at as well. Funny, I got there through the workstations that need to run without a crash for years avenue. If course, I used to work in UNIX work- stations that used Oracle on VMS as a data store. That was a sick (and stupid) thing to do, but not my call. > For what it's worth, I was a long-time VAX/VMS guy prior to getting > involved with BSD Unix. And you're feeling much better now, right? ;^) > Several other core members also have significant > amounts of VMS in their history. I'm not sure this says anything in > particular, but I think it's interesting nonetheless. I think most of them ended up in VMS jr. -- Winders NT. At least, most of the ones I worked with did. Good riddance to bad rubbish, in most cases. They've almost finished the latest release of their all-seeing, all-knowing security analysis product for NT, a port from my original UNIX version. They were "on the verge" of releasing it when I left the company 4.5 years ago, if that gives you any idea of their level of productivity on NT. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 07:50:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14010 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:50:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA13979 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:50:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4016.ime.net [209.90.195.26]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.3/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id KAA01525; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:49:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990210104411.03d41e50@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 10:49:33 -0500 To: Tommy Hallgren , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Linus on IRC In-Reply-To: <19990210110744.28561.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:07 AM 2/10/99 , Tommy Hallgren wrote: >Hi! > >Linus attended to an IRC chat recently, you can find the log at: >http://farcaster.net/linus.html > >From the log: > > Josh Bell: What do you think about the BSD project that >is now starting to get more and more support, do you think it will >take Linux's hype away, once more and more people learn about the free > distributions of BSD? > > I actually think that they have been going away >instead of actually making a comeback. And I think they were >interesting projects. > >What an ignorant and unfair answer! I actually thought that Linus was >a sensible and well-informed man. Except when you're tooting your own horn on IRC in front of a lot of people, I guess. I haven't seen any of the original distribs 'go away'. OpenBSD just released 2.3 a little while ago (and maybe they're out with 2.4 and I just haven't been over there). NetBSD is out and about, the whole iMAC issue is sure to make some waves if exploited properly. Then FreeBSD, well, 3.0 is out with ELF and finally Droo's make world works again :-). And lastly, the thousands of isps running FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD worldwide. Let alone anyone using a Whistle Interjet or other integrated device using BSD. (and any of the distribs I happened to leave out...) I'd say all in all, BSD is in some ventures that Linux isn't. The population is growing from my angle (lot more people on IRC using FreeBSD, for one), not depleating. But hey, Linus can dream :) --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP DSS/1024 Public Key ID: 0x409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 07:53:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA14914 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:53:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from cs.Technion.AC.IL (csa.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id HAA14868 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 07:53:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.csa (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by cs.Technion.AC.IL (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id RAA27490; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:55:15 +0200 (IST) Received: from localhost by csd.csa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA28985; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:55:08 +0200 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:55:08 +0200 (IST) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: Wes Peters cc: dg@root.com, pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: VAXen in FreeBSD ( was Re: Women in FreeBSD) In-Reply-To: <36C1A9CF.8B744006@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > David Greenman wrote: > > > > >I don't think so. At least that's not my reason. I think it's a matter of > > >market segment it aims at: VMS aims at servers that need to run without a > > >crash for years, and that's what FreeBSD excels at as well. > > Funny, I got there through the workstations that need to runwithout > a crash for years avenue. If course, I used to work in UNIX work- > stations that used Oracle on VMS as a data store. That was a sick > (and stupid) thing to do, but not my call. > > > For what it's worth, I was a long-time VAX/VMS guy prior to getting > > involved with BSD Unix. > > And you're feeling much better now, right? ;^) > > > Several other core members also have significant > > amounts of VMS in their history. I'm not sure this says anything in > > particular, but I think it's interesting nonetheless. > > I think most of them ended up in VMS jr. -- Winders NT. At least, > most of the ones I worked with did. Good riddance to bad rubbish, > in most cases. They've almost finished the latest release of their > all-seeing, all-knowing security analysis product for NT, a port from > my original UNIX version. They were "on the verge" of releasing it > when I left the company 4.5 years ago, if that gives you any idea of > their level of productivity on NT. Some. When WNT came out I remember (was a VMSer back then) that DEC tried really hard to push it as being similar to VMS (with all the hype that goes with Dave Cutler, the HAL/IBM thing, etc.). Privately, even DEC said it will take NT 10 years to become what VMS already was. Since then, NT went in the wrong direction and, regretably, DEC (sorry, Compaq) seems to continue pushing it as an enterprise platform, which it is definitly not (a platform I mean - not even thinking of enterprise ;-) ) The people I used to work for on VMS still use it and are happy with it, but management pushes hard to move to NT. I hope they won't be switching anytime soon. > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 08:09:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16392 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:09:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA16387 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:09:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id IAA24557; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:06:42 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19990210080642.A24061@best.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:06:42 -0800 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: Drew Baxter , Tommy Hallgren , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Mail-Followup-To: Drew Baxter , Tommy Hallgren , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990210110744.28561.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> <4.1.19990210104411.03d41e50@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990210104411.03d41e50@genesis.ispace.com>; from Drew Baxter on Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:49:33AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:49:33AM -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: > At 06:07 AM 2/10/99 , Tommy Hallgren wrote: > >Hi! > > > >Linus attended to an IRC chat recently, you can find the log at: > >http://farcaster.net/linus.html > > > >From the log: > > > > Josh Bell: What do you think about the BSD project that > >is now starting to get more and more support, do you think it will > >take Linux's hype away, once more and more people learn about the free > > distributions of BSD? > > > > I actually think that they have been going away > >instead of actually making a comeback. And I think they were > >interesting projects. Hi Linus. Yahoo uses FreeBSD. Not Linux. Sorry. Bye. -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 08:11:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA16649 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:11:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA16642 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:11:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4016.ime.net [209.90.195.26]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.3/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id LAA01570; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:11:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990210111040.03d536d0@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 11:11:07 -0500 To: "Jan B. Koum " , Tommy Hallgren , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Linus on IRC In-Reply-To: <19990210080642.A24061@best.com> References: <4.1.19990210104411.03d41e50@genesis.ispace.com> <19990210110744.28561.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> <4.1.19990210104411.03d41e50@genesis.ispace.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:06 AM 2/10/99 , Jan B. Koum wrote: >On Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 10:49:33AM -0500, Drew Baxter > wrote: >> At 06:07 AM 2/10/99 , Tommy Hallgren wrote: >> >Hi! >> > >> >Linus attended to an IRC chat recently, you can find the log at: >> >http://farcaster.net/linus.html >> > >> >From the log: >> > >> > Josh Bell: What do you think about the BSD project that >> >is now starting to get more and more support, do you think it will >> >take Linux's hype away, once more and more people learn about the free >> > distributions of BSD? >> > >> > I actually think that they have been going away >> >instead of actually making a comeback. And I think they were >> >interesting projects. > > Hi Linus. Yahoo uses FreeBSD. Not Linux. Sorry. Bye. > >-- Yan And shot from out of nowhere, shoots, shoots, SCORE! --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP DSS/1024 Public Key ID: 0x409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 08:19:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA17471 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:19:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA17461 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:19:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id RAA14236; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:18:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Feb 1999 17:18:51 +0100 In-Reply-To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai's message of "Mon, 08 Feb 1999 07:22:17 +0100 (CET)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai writes: > Djeez, gotta love Techie humor... These are the kind of mails that get me > all laughing behind my comp and the rest looking at me if I were some sort > of idiot... "as if you were"? Why the conditional? ;) DES (sorry, couldn't resist) -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 08:35:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA18965 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:35:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA18960 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:35:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA20722; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:38:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd020583; Wed Feb 10 09:38:11 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA09577; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:35:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902101635.JAA09577@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linus on IRC To: jkb@best.com (Jan B. Koum) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:35:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com, thallgren@yahoo.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990210080642.A24061@best.com> from "Jan B. Koum" at Feb 10, 99 08:06:42 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > I actually think that they have been going away > > >instead of actually making a comeback. And I think they were > > >interesting projects. > > Hi Linus. Yahoo uses FreeBSD. Not Linux. Sorry. Bye. Oh yeah? What about the Internet Movie Database? Er, uh, I meant HotMail. Er, uh, I meant slashdot.org. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 08:36:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19204 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:36:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19197 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:36:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21002; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:39:10 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd020871; Wed Feb 10 09:39:01 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA09639; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:36:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902101636.JAA09639@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linus on IRC To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:36:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: thallgren@yahoo.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902101140.DAA63055@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Feb 10, 99 03:40:43 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Linus also mentioned that the GPL is preventing Linux from splitting > apart ... This is utter hogwash, or Cygnus and FSF would have one compiler source tree between them. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 08:39:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19372 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:39:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19366 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:39:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id RAA14383; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:39:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Terry Lambert Cc: jkb@best.com (Jan B. Koum), netmonger@genesis.ispace.com, thallgren@yahoo.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linus on IRC References: <199902101635.JAA09577@usr07.primenet.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Feb 1999 17:39:08 +0100 In-Reply-To: Terry Lambert's message of "Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:35:09 +0000 (GMT)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > Er, uh, I meant slashdot.org. Slashdot is a Linux box, according to queso: root@flood ~# /usr/local/sbin/queso www.slashdot.org 206.170.14.75:80 * Standard: Solaris 2.x, Linux 2.1.???, MacOS Solaris and MacOS don't sound very likely, which leaves us with Linux. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 08:46:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19903 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:46:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19898 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:46:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA22503; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:46:14 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd022420; Wed Feb 10 09:46:05 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA10289; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 09:45:58 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902101645.JAA10289@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linus on IRC To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:45:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkb@best.com, netmonger@genesis.ispace.com, thallgren@yahoo.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Feb 10, 99 05:39:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Er, uh, I meant slashdot.org. > > Slashdot is a Linux box, according to queso: > > root@flood ~# /usr/local/sbin/queso www.slashdot.org > 206.170.14.75:80 * Standard: Solaris 2.x, Linux 2.1.???, MacOS > > Solaris and MacOS don't sound very likely, which leaves us with Linux. I was petulantly defending the honor and widespread use of Linux, as counter examples to the "FreeBSD runs Yahoo" claim. Only my first two counter examples didn't work. ;-). Jokes just aren't as funny, if you have to explain them... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 08:53:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA20512 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:53:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA20506 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:53:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.47]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA4ECF; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:53:04 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:01:59 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-Feb-99 Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai writes: >> Djeez, gotta love Techie humor... These are the kind of mails that get >> me all laughing behind my comp and the rest looking at me if I were >> some sort of idiot... > > "as if you were"? Why the conditional? ;) *G* Well, _I_ at least look normal, heheh... Erhm, at least, I think I do =P Besides, being an idiot has its privileges... But I have to say DES, touche ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl Time is merely a residue of Reality... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 12:26:59 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14806 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:26:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA14799 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 12:26:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA18515; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:26:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990210132536.03f7a610@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:26:28 -0700 To: Amancio Hasty , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL vs. BSD In-Reply-To: <199902101242.EAA13925@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, and there's FreeBSD code in there. Again, this is why we need SOME way of keeping our code out of the Borg. --Brett At 04:42 AM 2/10/99 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: >OSKit just recently switched to GPL if anyone cares here is the mailing >list: >ftp://flux.cs.utah.edu/flux/oskit/mail/html/oskit-users/index.html > > Amancio > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 13:07:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19241 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:07:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA19234 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:06:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.40]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA11755 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:05:15 -0500 Message-ID: <36C1F4F0.B27659EE@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:06:56 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL vs. BSD References: <4.1.19990210132536.03f7a610@mail.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There's nothing we can do here, one part is GPL'd so it infects the rest. however the BSD code is still available if people know where to look, and that's why the credit "restriction" must be kept. BTW, anyone knows why there is no GPL'd X11 ?? I recall vaguely the GRX guys couldn't change the MIT license of the fonts used from the older release of X11. Pedro. Brett Glass wrote: > > Yes, and there's FreeBSD code in there. Again, this is why we need > SOME way of keeping our code out of the Borg. > > --Brett > > At 04:42 AM 2/10/99 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > >OSKit just recently switched to GPL if anyone cares here is the mailing > >list: > >ftp://flux.cs.utah.edu/flux/oskit/mail/html/oskit-users/index.html > > > > Amancio > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 13:20:41 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA20454 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:20:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20449 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:20:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA19052; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:20:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990210141609.040cf220@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:20:26 -0700 To: Amancio Hasty , Tommy Hallgren From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902101140.DAA63055@rah.star-gate.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:40 AM 2/10/99 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: >Linus also mentioned that the GPL is preventing Linux from splitting >apart ... This is a myth which seems to have been most recently propagated by the supposed "Hallowe'en Memo" -- the notion that the GPL somehow prevents development projects from "forking." (Since the authenticity of the whole memo has never been proven, it's possible that ESR or someone else inserted it as a way of intentionally creating FUD about BSD.) If the GPL prevents projects from forking, how come there are Debian, SlackWare, Red Hat, Caldera, and SuSE versions of Linux? (There are only 3 open source BSDs, and one commercial one, as far as I know.) --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 13:25:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21216 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:25:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA21208 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:25:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 20007 invoked from network); 10 Feb 1999 21:24:44 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 10 Feb 1999 21:24:44 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA02507; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:24:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902102124.QAA02507@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Linus on IRC In-Reply-To: from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai at "Feb 10, 99 03:22:32 pm" To: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:24:35 -0500 (EST) Cc: thallgren@yahoo.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai said: > On 10-Feb-99 Tommy Hallgren wrote: > > Linus attended to an IRC chat recently, you can find the log at: > > http://farcaster.net/linus.html > > > > From the log: > > > > Josh Bell: What do you think about the BSD project that > > is now starting to get more and more support, do you think it will > > take Linux's hype away, once more and more people learn about the free > > distributions of BSD? > > > > I actually think that they have been going away > > instead of actually making a comeback. And I think they were > > interesting projects. > > > > What an ignorant and unfair answer! I actually thought that Linus was > > a sensible and well-informed man. > > Sorry to shatter dreams, but Linus has been ignorant in a lot of ways. He > took Andy's Minix sources, changed them to work for Intel chips, discussed > this all with Tanenbaum, Andy does however admire the work Linux has done > but Linus has been an ungrateful `student'. > I tend to think that people sometimes mistake a kindly or superficially pleasant manner with it being the same as a kind, intelligent and non-arrogant person. Kindly manner can be practiced, and has nothing to do with a persons inner self. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 13:40:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22602 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:40:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22594 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:40:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.240]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3DE0; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:40:25 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199902102124.QAA02507@y.dyson.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:49:22 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "John S. Dyson" Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, thallgren@yahoo.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-Feb-99 John S. Dyson wrote: > I tend to think that people sometimes mistake a kindly or superficially > pleasant manner with it being the same as a kind, intelligent and > non-arrogant person. > Kindly manner can be practiced, and has nothing to do with a persons > inner self. Heh, example number #2: Bill Gates. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl This is my Truth, tell me your's... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 13:40:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22617 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:40:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA22597 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:40:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.240]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3DD2; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:40:23 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990210141609.040cf220@mail.lariat.org> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:49:20 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Tommy Hallgren , Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-Feb-99 Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:40 AM 2/10/99 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >>Linus also mentioned that the GPL is preventing Linux from splitting >>apart ... > If the GPL prevents projects from forking, how come there are Debian, > SlackWare, Red Hat, Caldera, and SuSE versions of Linux? (There are > only 3 open source BSDs, and one commercial one, as far as I know.) Forgetting MkLinux, Hurd, Stampede, Yggdrasil, Mandrake, LinuxPPC, LinuxWare, TruboLinux, DLXLinux, DOS Linux, hal91 (picoBSD like), tomsrtbt (picoBSD like), Connectiva, Delix DLD Linux, Eagle Linux, Eurilec Linux, Kheops Linux, MNIS Linux, Trinux (picoBSD) for a second. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl This is my Truth, tell me your's... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 13:51:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23746 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:51:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23741 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:51:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA19390; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:51:27 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990210143806.040cfed0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:51:24 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Anonymous flame received (Was: Linus on IRC) In-Reply-To: <199902102134.WAA22603@replay.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For some reason, someone who's reading the FreeBSD-Chat list is flaming me about my postings via an anonymous remailer. (Why this person is so much of a coward as to want to hide his or her identity and/or not copy the list is beyond me.) In any event, At 10:34 PM 2/10/99 +0100, Anonymous wrote: >Re: Linus on IRC > >Issue 1: >The Halloween documents have been positively identified as factual >documents by Microsoft itself. It hasn't asserted that the documents were not edited, changed, or amended. >Issue 2: >Debian >Slackware FreeBSD >Red Hat vs. OpenBSD >Caldera NetBSD >and SuSE > >*ALL* share the same *IDENTICAL* kernel. >The BSDs do *NOT* share the same kernel. So? The BSDs share identical versions of other components. And the various Linux releases are far from identical in other respects. >GPL or BSD licenses have zilch to do with it. My original point was that the GPL does nothing to prevent code forking. Whoever you are, you seem to be supporting my point. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 14:17:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA26983 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:17:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA26974 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:17:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA30918; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:17:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902102217.OAA30918@rah.star-gate.com> To: Brett Glass cc: Amancio Hasty , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: GPL vs. BSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 10 Feb 1999 13:26:28 MST." <4.1.19990210132536.03f7a610@mail.lariat.org> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:17:23 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, I glanced at their mailing and I think the only FreeBSD users there or the majority were the oskit developers . I think it would be nice if you could write a nice article on the implication of GPL and include opposite arguments so when the GPL vs. BSD debate starts again we can point people to go read it first also it would not be a bad idea to post the url to major companies such as Sun , HP, SGI , etc... heck they linux cone-heads have periodically invaded our news groups ... Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 14:21:03 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27329 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:21:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27321 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:21:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (root@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id OAA16150; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:20:56 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id OAA27170; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:20:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:20:18 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL vs. BSD In-Reply-To: <36C1F4F0.B27659EE@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >BTW, anyone knows why there is no GPL'd X11 ?? I recall vaguely the GRX >guys couldn't change the MIT license of the fonts used from the older >release of X11. TOG owns X since MIT gave it to them. TOG establishes the licensing. Xfree86 uses what TOG puts out. As long as Xfree86 is happy with the licensing it will remain under the MIT license which is pretty BSDish. I suppose someone _could_ release their own GPLed X. In fact... I hereby announce the release of GPL X. Download it from Xfree86 but don't use it commercially. You can download the license from the FSF. If you have any questions contact someone else. This is truly a great advance for free softare. :) Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 14:49:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01246 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:49:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01235 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:49:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA10998; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:19:39 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.2/8.9.0) id JAA79634; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:19:39 +1030 (CST) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:19:39 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Wes Peters Cc: dg@root.com, Nadav Eiron , pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: WNT (was: VAXen in FreeBSD (was Re: Women in FreeBSD)) Message-ID: <19990211091938.I71962@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199902091445.GAA04663@implode.root.com> <36C1A9CF.8B744006@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36C1A9CF.8B744006@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Wed, Feb 10, 1999 at 08:46:23AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 10 February 1999 at 8:46:23 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > David Greenman wrote: >> Several other core members also have significant >> amounts of VMS in their history. I'm not sure this says anything in >> particular, but I think it's interesting nonetheless. > > I think most of them ended up in VMS jr. -- Winders NT. At least, > most of the ones I worked with did. Good riddance to bad rubbish, > in most cases. They've almost finished the latest release of their > all-seeing, all-knowing security analysis product for NT, a port from > my original UNIX version. They were "on the verge" of releasing it > when I left the company 4.5 years ago, if that gives you any idea of > their level of productivity on NT. To be fair to DEC and VMS, ISTR that the WNT project had been canned at DEC. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 14:55:19 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA01924 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:55:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01919 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:55:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA20102; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:55:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990210155320.03fc67f0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:55:08 -0700 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Tommy Hallgren From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Linus on IRC Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990210110744.28561.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:22 PM 2/10/99 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >Sorry to shatter dreams, but Linus has been ignorant in a lot of ways. He >took Andy's Minix sources, changed them to work for Intel chips, discussed >this all with Tanenbaum, Andy does however admire the work Linux has done >but Linus has been an ungrateful `student'. What's more, because he looked at Andy's source and made gradual changes to it, Linux -- as a work -- is a derivative of Minix. Therefore, Andy has a right to any money that's made from Linux and could actually prohibit its use or distribution. He could sue Linus for copyright infringement and Red Hat for contributory infringement. --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 15:04:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA03495 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:04:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA03483 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:04:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.39]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA12589; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:59:19 -0500 Message-ID: <36C20F7D.31EB94D2@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:00:13 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" CC: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL vs. BSD References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells wrote: > > TOG owns X since MIT gave it to them. TOG establishes the licensing. > Xfree86 uses what TOG puts out. As long as Xfree86 is happy with the > licensing it will remain under the MIT license which is pretty BSDish. > It is not exactly equal, in the FSF site they recommend the MIT licnese over the BSD license for some obscure reason Mr. Stallman didn't care to explain. As I said before, I saw an attempt (GRX) to re-release some fonts from the X11R3 or X11R4 under GPL, but it seemed like the license didn't permit this. > I suppose someone _could_ release their own GPLed X. In fact... > > I hereby announce the release of GPL X. Download it from Xfree86 but don't > use it commercially. You can download the license from the FSF. If you > have any questions contact someone else. This is truly a great advance for > free softare. :) > > Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. > Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ GPL'd X11 ??? I also prefer a typewriter :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 15:35:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08363 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:35:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0716.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.208]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08305 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:34:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA04333 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:34:53 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 19:34:53 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: An Operating Systems Survey, of sorts... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A couple of weeks back, we were talking about proportion of operating systems and what not, and its kinda difficult to come up with a fixed number, but... I ran across QueSO today, and was so intrigued by it that I built up a quick script to scan through my WWW logs, using it to determine who is running what. The script just started, so there are only just over 500 hosts listed so far (the log file I"m reading has 269,000 distinct IPs, do it has a ways to go), but if anyone is interested in these sorts of stats, check out: http://www.hub.org/OS_Survey I have more work that I want to do on it, but its a start... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 15:40:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA08964 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:39:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA08951 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:39:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (root@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id PAA30982 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 15:39:16 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id OAA27072 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:35:36 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:34:58 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Ultra Fresh Splash Bitmap Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I adapted a bitmap from Daemon News to use a splash screen. http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/graphics/splash.bmp I couldn't figure out how to get gimp to reduce to to 256 color so you'll need VESA. If you like it, use it. I personally think it looks pretty cool. The little guy's lurking in there somewhere running processes. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 16:03:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA13546 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:03:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA13524 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:03:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06692; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:03:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd006625; Wed Feb 10 17:03:09 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23955; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 17:03:03 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902110003.RAA23955@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: An Operating Systems Survey, of sorts... To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:03:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "The Hermit Hacker" at Feb 10, 99 07:34:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > A couple of weeks back, we were talking about proportion of operating > systems and what not, and its kinda difficult to come up with a fixed > number, but... > > I ran across QueSO today, and was so intrigued by it that I built up a > quick script to scan through my WWW logs, using it to determine who is > running what. The script just started, so there are only just over 500 > hosts listed so far (the log file I"m reading has 269,000 distinct IPs, do > it has a ways to go), but if anyone is interested in these sorts of stats, > check out: > > http://www.hub.org/OS_Survey > > I have more work that I want to do on it, but its a start... You should break out by "major number". In other words, you should subtotal all Berkely, subtotal all SYSV, and subtotal all Linux, where possible, and give a total overall, as well. Not volunteering, though. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 16:09:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15723 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15715 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 16:09:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id SAA00140; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:39:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:39:42 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Women in FreeBSD ( was Re: Is there a reseller program?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > Besides, being an idiot has its privileges... Go home. Your village misses you. :) -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 18:05:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA29281 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:05:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from wichita.gate.net (wichita.gate.net [198.206.134.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA29274 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:05:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ddnsg@icanect.net) Received: from vogmudet (txmia4-16.gate.net [207.234.172.16]) by wichita.gate.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA381422 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:05:43 -0500 Message-Id: <199902110205.VAA381422@wichita.gate.net> From: "mantha" To: Subject: Mailing lists Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:31:37 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To whom it may concern, I am looking for a mailing list for newbies. Could you please e-mail me a list at your earliest conveniece. Thankyou. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 18:31:39 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA02991 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:31:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA02981 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:31:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id DAA15772 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:31:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10Ajek-000WyhC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:06:58 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Date: 11 Feb 1999 01:06:55 +0100 Message-ID: <79t6uv$1kq$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <19990210110744.28561.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tommy Hallgren wrote: > Linus attended to an IRC chat recently, you can find the log at: It was some kind of "web chat" rather than IRC. Also, if you read the log, you'll find a statement to the effect that they had Linus on the phone and somebody else was typing his part. > I actually think that [the free distributions of > BSD] have been going away instead of actually making a comeback. And I > think they were interesting projects. Yes. Among BSD people there is a lot of casual Linux bashing, usually devoid of technical justification. Snide remarks against Linux have become fashionable on the freebsd mailing lists. You don't see much of this in other direction. To Linux people, BSD is mostly a non-issue. It's invisible, who runs it anyway?, they're hopelessly split up. That's what you are likely to hear. And this attitude starts from the top down, see Linus' comment above, see ESR's remarks, and a few months ago I witnessed Maddog Hall giving a similar response when asked about his opinions on BSD. And the large numbers of Linux users at the bottom pick it up. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de carpe librum: books 'n' reviews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 18:31:42 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03010 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:31:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03001 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:31:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id DAA15775 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:31:39 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10Ajml-000WyhC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:15:15 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Anonymous flame received Date: 11 Feb 1999 01:15:12 +0100 Message-ID: <79t7eg$1m4$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <199902102134.WAA22603@replay.com> <4.1.19990210143806.040cfed0@mail.lariat.org> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:34 PM 2/10/99 +0100, Anonymous wrote: > [multiple Linux distributions vs. *BSD] > >*ALL* share the same *IDENTICAL* kernel. > >The BSDs do *NOT* share the same kernel. If you want to be pedantic, and somebody's who's yelling ought to be, you should note that at least SuSE and Red Hat typically patch up the kernels they ship with distro-specific modifications. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de carpe librum: books 'n' reviews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 18:31:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA03025 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:31:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA03020 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 18:31:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id DAA15783 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:31:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10Ajue-000WyhC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Thu, 11 Feb 1999 01:23:24 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Date: 11 Feb 1999 01:23:21 +0100 Message-ID: <79t7tp$1n8$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <199902101140.DAA63055@rah.star-gate.com> <4.1.19990210141609.040cf220@mail.lariat.org> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > This is a myth which seems to have been most recently propagated by > the supposed "Hallowe'en Memo" -- the notion that the GPL somehow prevents > development projects from "forking." (Since the authenticity of the > whole memo has never been proven, it's possible that ESR or someone else > inserted it as a way of intentionally creating FUD about BSD.) You're being overly paranoid. As a Linux advocate, ESR doesn't need to create FUD about BSD. It's not on his map at all. It's a non-issue. I think it was Jordan who mentioned pretty early on that the Halloween document is what you get when you browse Linux advocacy on the net. Yes, a lot of the Halloween paper reads like ESR--that's because the author swalled ESR's papers head and tail and occasionally didn't understand everything. > If the GPL prevents projects from forking, how come there are Debian, > SlackWare, Red Hat, Caldera, and SuSE versions of Linux? The Linux distributions aren't forks. They are different collections. There is no common ancestor. (Strictly speaking, you can probably derive family relationships for some of them.) -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de carpe librum: books 'n' reviews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 20:21:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA15860 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:21:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA15847 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:21:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gummibear@mediaone.net) Received: from mediaone.net (we-24-130-60-145.we.mediaone.net [24.130.60.145]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id UAA20721 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:21:23 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36C25BF1.4AF49878@mediaone.net> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 20:26:25 -0800 From: Joey Garcia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: /usr/games/fortune & Married with Children Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I had a neat idea. I don't know in how many countries the show called "Married with Children" was aired, but for those of you in the U.S. that enjoyed this show, wouldn't it be neat to have a compilation of all the Al Bundy quotes? Like the nudy bar sayings that he had and stuff like that. Most of them of them are derogatory towards women, but then again so is alot of stuff in `fortune -o`. Only problem is that someone would have to watch a hell of alot of "Married with Children" reruns to write them all down. Any other interesting fortune ideas? Joey -- =============================================== Joseph Garcia gummibear@mediaone.net Downey, CA =============================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 21:05:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA20611 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:05:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20590 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:05:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id PAA04091; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:35:23 +1030 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA30009; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:35:16 +1030 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 15:35:16 +1030 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An Operating Systems Survey, of sorts... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > I ran across QueSO today, and was so intrigued by it that I built up a > quick script to scan through my WWW logs, using it to determine who is > running what. The script just started, so there are only just over 500 > hosts listed so far (the log file I"m reading has 269,000 distinct IPs, do > it has a ways to go), but if anyone is interested in these sorts of stats, > check out: Look into nmap - it does a better job of identifying OS versions since it's based on a larger number of tests. It would be interesting to see the results of this, although the stats might be self-selected if, e.g., you have useful OS-specific pages on your site (higher number of users accessing them using that OS than from a random population sample). Kris ----- (ASP) Microsoft Corporation (MSFT) announced today that the release of its productivity suite, Office 2000, will be delayed until the first quarter of 1901. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 21:24:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA23540 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:24:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jumping-spider.aracnet.com (jumping-spider.aracnet.com [205.159.88.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA23535 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:24:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@linux4life.com) Received: from sara.linux4life.com (IDENT:mark@ppp-a13.cust.aracnet.com [216.99.195.17]) by jumping-spider.aracnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with SMTP id VAA02008; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:24:27 -0800 Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:26:00 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Byram To: Joey Garcia cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /usr/games/fortune & Married with Children In-Reply-To: <36C25BF1.4AF49878@mediaone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well animated shows like South Park, B&B, Simpsons, King of the Hill, etc... would be cool too. Fortune files are pretty strait forward to write yourself, and kind of a cool way to "contribute." I wish I had the time :-) On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Joey Garcia wrote: > I had a neat idea. I don't know in how many countries the show called > "Married with Children" was aired, but for those of you in the U.S. that > enjoyed this show, wouldn't it be neat to have a compilation of all the > Al Bundy quotes? Like the nudy bar sayings that he had and stuff like > that. Most of them of them are derogatory towards women, but then again > so is alot of stuff in `fortune -o`. > > Only problem is that someone would have to watch a hell of alot of > "Married with Children" reruns to write them all down. > > Any other interesting fortune ideas? > > Joey > -- > > > > =============================================== > Joseph Garcia > gummibear@mediaone.net > Downey, CA > =============================================== > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Sincerely, %###% (0-0) ----oOO----(_)----------- | Mark Byram | | | | UNIX is all you need! | -------------------oOO--- |__I__| || || ooO Ooo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 21:44:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA26147 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:44:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA26141 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:44:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id VAA26162; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:44:19 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id VAA20856; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:44:18 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:43:38 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: mantha cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mailing lists In-Reply-To: <199902110205.VAA381422@wichita.gate.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, mantha wrote: > To whom it may concern, >I am looking for a mailing list for newbies. Could you please e-mail me a >list at your earliest conveniece. Thankyou. > John Look a little closer where you found this list and you will see freebsd-newbies. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 22:01:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA27746 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:01:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA27737 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:00:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul1.u.washington.edu (root@saul1.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.10]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id VAA32246; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:32:38 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul1.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id VAA16414; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:32:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 21:31:57 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Joey Garcia cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /usr/games/fortune & Married with Children In-Reply-To: <36C25BF1.4AF49878@mediaone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Joey Garcia wrote: >Any other interesting fortune ideas? If God didn't want us to eat animals he wouldn't have made them out of meat. -Homer J. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 22:05:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28096 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:05:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0716.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.208]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28082 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA09689; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:04:53 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:04:52 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Kris Kennaway cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An Operating Systems Survey, of sorts... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > I ran across QueSO today, and was so intrigued by it that I built up a > > quick script to scan through my WWW logs, using it to determine who is > > running what. The script just started, so there are only just over 500 > > hosts listed so far (the log file I"m reading has 269,000 distinct IPs, do > > it has a ways to go), but if anyone is interested in these sorts of stats, > > check out: > > Look into nmap - it does a better job of identifying OS versions since it's > based on a larger number of tests. It would be interesting to see the results > of this, although the stats might be self-selected if, e.g., you have useful > OS-specific pages on your site (higher number of users accessing them using > that OS than from a random population sample). Just looked at nmap, and...ack. At least from the DESCR file, it basically pounds the hell out of each host to determine the information it requires. I don't want to know what ports are open on each machine, nor do I want to set off each and every intrusion detection system out there :( I may have missed something, but the man page doesn't seem to indicate a way of *just* doing the fingerprinting...its an extra :( Nice program though, tried it out on one of my hosts and the results it gives back are quite impressive... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 22:07:54 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA28325 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:07:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA28315 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:07:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.8]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA86F; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:07:46 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199902110205.VAA381422@wichita.gate.net> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:16:46 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: mantha Subject: RE: Mailing lists Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11-Feb-99 mantha wrote: > To whom it may concern, > I am looking for a mailing list for newbies. Could you please e-mail me a > list at your earliest conveniece. Thankyou. newbies@freebsd.org questions@freebsd.org Those are what ye want I guess --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl This is my Truth, tell me your's... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 22:16:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA29222 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:16:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA29217 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:16:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.3]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA446D; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:16:08 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <79t6uv$1kq$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:25:08 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11-Feb-99 Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Among BSD people there is a lot of casual Linux bashing, usually devoid > of technical justification. Snide remarks against Linux have become > fashionable on the freebsd mailing lists. Mayhaps, but most Linux users and Linux coders view only their OS as the One True Way, and they don't see how hopelessly broken/hacked at some places it realy is. Also, there's so much about the development process of some Linux programming efforts that causes alot of patching before it's even suitable for cross platform development (the only way that works i by use of automake/autoconf/autoheader). Talk to a bunch of (other) developers about this, horror stories amass... > You don't see much of this in other direction. To Linux people, BSD is > mostly a non-issue. It's invisible, who runs it anyway?, they're > hopelessly split up. That's what you are likely to hear. And this > attitude starts from the top down, see Linus' comment above, see ESR's > remarks, and a few months ago I witnessed Maddog Hall giving a similar > response when asked about his opinions on BSD. And the large numbers of > Linux users at the bottom pick it up. They wouldn't know *BSD if it bit them in the butt. Funniest thing happened the other day, someone asked me if FreeBSD was released under the GPL. Most of 'em have no sense of the history if 'nix anyways... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl This is my Truth, tell me your's... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 22:30:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00302 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:30:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA00282 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:30:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id QAA05008; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:47:54 +1030 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA32256; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:47:48 +1030 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:47:47 +1030 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An Operating Systems Survey, of sorts... In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > Look into nmap - it does a better job of identifying OS versions since it's > > based on a larger number of tests. It would be interesting to see the results > > of this, although the stats might be self-selected if, e.g., you have useful > > OS-specific pages on your site (higher number of users accessing them using > > that OS than from a random population sample). > > Just looked at nmap, and...ack. At least from the DESCR file, it > basically pounds the hell out of each host to determine the information it > requires. I don't want to know what ports are open on each machine, nor > do I want to set off each and every intrusion detection system out there > :( It just needs to find an open port (and a closed one, which it does by picking a high-numbered random port which it hasn't discovered to be open). queso does fingerprinting by attempting port 80 by default (as far as I remember), which isn't necessarily going to be listened to. You can tell nmap to just scan port 80 for fingerprinting purposes if you wanted to, with the caveat that machines which aren't running a webserver won't be fingerprinted. Kris ----- (ASP) Microsoft Corporation (MSFT) announced today that the release of its productivity suite, Office 2000, will be delayed until the first quarter of 1901. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 22:58:06 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02990 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:58:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from obie.softweyr.com ([204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02985 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:58:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA27151; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:57:26 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36C27F55.F9B591BC@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 23:57:25 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey CC: dg@root.com, Nadav Eiron , pechter@shell.monmouth.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: WNT (was: VAXen in FreeBSD (was Re: Women in FreeBSD)) References: <199902091445.GAA04663@implode.root.com> <36C1A9CF.8B744006@softweyr.com> <19990211091938.I71962@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Wednesday, 10 February 1999 at 8:46:23 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: > > David Greenman wrote: > >> Several other core members also have significant > >> amounts of VMS in their history. I'm not sure this says anything in > >> particular, but I think it's interesting nonetheless. > > > > I think most of them ended up in VMS jr. -- Winders NT. At least, > > most of the ones I worked with did. Good riddance to bad rubbish, > > in most cases. They've almost finished the latest release of their > > all-seeing, all-knowing security analysis product for NT, a port from > > my original UNIX version. They were "on the verge" of releasing it > > when I left the company 4.5 years ago, if that gives you any idea of > > their level of productivity on NT. > > To be fair to DEC and VMS, ISTR that the WNT project had been canned > at DEC. I know they were heavily involved in getting 4.0 out the door, but haven't followed them at all since then. They'd finally slid into irrelevance. It'll be interesting to see if Compaq actually manages to revive them, or just puts the final bullet in that old dog. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 10 22:59:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA03130 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:59:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat0716.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.190.208]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA03125 for ; Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:59:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA10061; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:59:16 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:59:16 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Kris Kennaway cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: An Operating Systems Survey, of sorts... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 11 Feb 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > You can tell nmap to just scan port 80 for fingerprinting purposes if you > wanted to, with the caveat that machines which aren't running a webserver > won't be fingerprinted. I reduced nmap-services down to about 10 or so of the "core" ones...the results are much cleaner, and, appear to be, more accurate, then using QueSO...but its one helluva lot slower... Interesting to see how much more reasonable this looks now... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 11 00:03:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA09781 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:03:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-punt-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.36]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA09772 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:03:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10Ar5Q-0002gI-00; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:03:01 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id IAA01613; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:02:29 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02089; Thu, 11 Feb 99 08:02:27 GMT Message-Id: <36C28E7D.A6F34C09@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:02:05 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: Joey Garcia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /usr/games/fortune & Married with Children References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Joey Garcia wrote: > > >Any other interesting fortune ideas? > > If God didn't want us to eat animals he wouldn't have made them out of > meat. -Homer J. > ...and in the same vein... Are you a vegetarian because you love animals, or because you hate plants? > Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. > Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 11 00:32:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA12794 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:32:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA12764 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:31:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA22817; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:31:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990211003149.A22757@mooseriver.com> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:31:49 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Changes to BAFUG mailing lists Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We have made a few changes to the BAFUG mailing lists. Announce is now a moderated list. I am the list moderator. The list is for announcements, job postings, etc. Chat is an unmoderated list and is for idle chatter. I am probably most guilty of posting endless drek to announce but we have gotten more that a few complaints that the signal to noise ratio on announce was just too low. Everyone who was subscribed to announce is now also subscribed to chat. You can unsubscribe by either sending email to majordomo@bafug.org with the line "unsubscribe chat" in the body of the message or you can use the subscription form at; http://www.bafug.org/bafug_mail.html Thanks Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 11 02:05:23 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA23126 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:05:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA23114 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:05:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 15404 invoked from network); 11 Feb 1999 10:05:15 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 11 Feb 1999 10:05:15 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA03785; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:05:15 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902111005.FAA03785@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Linus on IRC In-Reply-To: <79t6uv$1kq$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> from Christian Weisgerber at "Feb 11, 99 01:06:55 am" To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:05:15 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber said: > > You don't see much of this in other direction. To Linux people, BSD is > mostly a non-issue. It's invisible, who runs it anyway?, they're > hopelessly split up. That's what you are likely to hear. And this > attitude starts from the top down, see Linus' comment above, see ESR's > remarks, and a few months ago I witnessed Maddog Hall giving a similar > response when asked about his opinions on BSD. And the large numbers of > Linux users at the bottom pick it up. > The above notion that "BSD" isn't on their map has been true even for the last 3 or so years (per my conversations with the indoctorinated.) It is part of both a strategy of the advocates, and partly a result of the lack of information of those who know nothing else. One of the best ways to put down what you think the competition might be, is to assert their being inconsequential. The key is to not become angry, but simply ignore the political statements of those with the agenda, and the ignorance of those who know no better. The best way to combat the ignorance is to present a less narrow view of the world. BTW, my use of the word "ignorance" doesn't imply a "sin", but only a handicap. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 11 02:07:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA23384 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:07:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA23378 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:07:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 16120 invoked from network); 11 Feb 1999 10:07:45 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 11 Feb 1999 10:07:45 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA03790; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:07:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902111007.FAA03790@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Linus on IRC In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990210155320.03fc67f0@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Feb 10, 99 03:55:08 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:07:46 -0500 (EST) Cc: asmodai@wxs.nl, thallgren@yahoo.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said: > At 03:22 PM 2/10/99 +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > >Sorry to shatter dreams, but Linus has been ignorant in a lot of ways. He > >took Andy's Minix sources, changed them to work for Intel chips, discussed > >this all with Tanenbaum, Andy does however admire the work Linux has done > >but Linus has been an ungrateful `student'. > > What's more, because he looked at Andy's source and made gradual changes > to it, Linux -- as a work -- is a derivative of Minix. Therefore, Andy > has a right to any money that's made from Linux and could actually prohibit > its use or distribution. He could sue Linus for copyright infringement and > Red Hat for contributory infringement. > The above is very interesting. However, that is one reason why software that is licensed under restrictive terms should be shunned when creating free works. Since alot of people, who really understand the ramifications of licenses, consider the GPL to be restrictive, it follows that GPL'ed code should be shunned or ignored as reference implementations. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 11 02:10:26 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA23705 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:10:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA23696 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:10:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 16704 invoked from network); 11 Feb 1999 10:10:19 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 11 Feb 1999 10:10:19 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA03799; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:10:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902111010.FAA03799@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Anonymous flame received (Was: Linus on IRC) In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990210143806.040cfed0@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Feb 10, 99 02:51:24 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:10:20 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said: > > >GPL or BSD licenses have zilch to do with it. > > My original point was that the GPL does nothing to prevent code > forking. Whoever you are, you seem to be supporting my point. > I agree -- critical mass of developers on the Net is what keeps the code from forking. (Or actually, it is a deterrent.) It seems to me that Linux distributions are forked from many more vendors than FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, or yadaBSD. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 11 02:13:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA24064 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:13:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id CAA24058 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 02:13:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 17475 invoked from network); 11 Feb 1999 10:13:31 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 11 Feb 1999 10:13:31 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id FAA03804; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:13:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902111013.FAA03804@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Linus on IRC In-Reply-To: <199902101645.JAA10289@usr07.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Feb 10, 99 04:45:57 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:13:29 -0500 (EST) Cc: des@flood.ping.uio.no, tlambert@primenet.com, jkb@best.com, netmonger@genesis.ispace.com, thallgren@yahoo.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said: > > > Er, uh, I meant slashdot.org. > > > > Slashdot is a Linux box, according to queso: > > > > root@flood ~# /usr/local/sbin/queso www.slashdot.org > > 206.170.14.75:80 * Standard: Solaris 2.x, Linux 2.1.???, MacOS > > > > Solaris and MacOS don't sound very likely, which leaves us with Linux. > > I was petulantly defending the honor and widespread use of Linux, > as counter examples to the "FreeBSD runs Yahoo" claim. Only my > first two counter examples didn't work. ;-). > > Jokes just aren't as funny, if you have to explain them... > Easy to misunderstand them, especially when emotions run high. I remember one time that I told Linus that I wasn't going to hack FreeBSD to make it benchmark faster, and he interpreted it as being that I said that Linux had been hacked to make it benchmark faster. My language was unambiguous, but apparently there was a presumption that what I said wasn't what I meant. Written communication is sometimes difficult, when either the recipient cannot read (like in the above case), or when the sender tries to be humorous (and that has happened to me also.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 11 07:31:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA02370 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:31:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flatline.laser.dsi.unimi.it (flatline.laser.dsi.unimi.it [149.132.132.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id HAA02359 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 07:31:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@laser.dsi.unimi.it) Received: (qmail 19240 invoked by uid 1001); 11 Feb 1999 15:31:52 -0000 Message-ID: <19990211153152.19239.qmail@flatline.laser.dsi.unimi.it> From: "Marco Molteni" Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 16:31:52 +0100 (CET) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Q. about emiclock :-) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I use the nice X clock emiclock (in the ports). Does anybody know how to enable the "trasparent dress" costume? Marco --- "Hi, I have a Compaq machine running Windows 95. How do I install FreeBSD?" "I'm sorry, this is device driver testing: brain implants are two doors down on the right". (Bill Paul, on the freebsd-net mailing list) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 11 09:14:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA14237 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:14:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA14198 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:14:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id SAA21441; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:14:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Ultra Fresh Splash Bitmap References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 11 Feb 1999 18:14:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells"'s message of "Wed, 10 Feb 1999 14:34:58 -0800 (PST)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jason C. Wells" writes: > I adapted a bitmap from Daemon News to use a splash screen. > http://weber.u.washington.edu/~jcwells/graphics/splash.bmp > > I couldn't figure out how to get gimp to reduce to to 256 color so you'll > need VESA. VESA won't help. The splash code only supports 256-color modes. Right-click on the image, select the Image sub-menu, then select Indexed and click OK in the dialog that pops up. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 11 11:41:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06095 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:41:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA06083 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:41:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id MAA01436; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:40:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990211123440.00add100@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:35:55 -0700 To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linus on IRC In-Reply-To: <79t7tp$1n8$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <199902101140.DAA63055@rah.star-gate.com> <4.1.19990210141609.040cf220@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:23 AM 2/11/99 +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote: >The Linux distributions aren't forks. They are different collections. >There is no common ancestor. I would think that Linus' kernel (which many of them patch or add modules to) could be considered a common ancestor. And many of the utilities have common origins. Yes, there's some original work in each, but that's true of the BSDs too, right? --Brett "Rules? This is the Internet." -- Dan Gillmor To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 11 13:00:33 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16653 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:00:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ska.bsn (d225.syd2.zeta.org.au [203.26.9.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA16645 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 13:00:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08011; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:07:25 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from atrn) Message-ID: <19990212080724.A7317@ska.bsn> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 08:07:24 +1100 From: Andy Newman To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linus on IRC References: <79t6uv$1kq$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <199902111005.FAA03785@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <199902111005.FAA03785@y.dyson.net>; from John S. Dyson on Thu, Feb 11, 1999 at 05:05:15AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 11, 1999 at 05:05:15AM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > my use of the word "ignorance" doesn't imply a "sin", but > only a handicap. An old quote... Ignorance is curable. Stupidity isn't. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 11 19:33:58 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10110 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:33:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from shell.dhp.com (shell.dhp.com [199.245.105.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA10105 for ; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 19:33:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fyodor@shell.dhp.com) Received: (from fyodor@localhost) by shell.dhp.com (8.9.0.Beta5/8.6.12) id WAA01108; Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:33:49 -0500 Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 22:33:47 -0500 (EST) From: Fyodor To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG cc: scrappy@hub.org, nmap-hackers@insecure.org Subject: Re: An Operating Systems Survey, of sorts... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org on Thu, 11 Feb 1999 in freebsd-chat, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > I reduced nmap-services down to about 10 or so of the "core" ones...the > results are much cleaner, and, appear to be, more accurate, then using > QueSO...but its one helluva lot slower... You should be able to get it going much faster than Queso, but you need to use the right arguments to suit what you are trying to do. Here is the approximate command line I would suggest: nmap -i -m output_file -n -O -sS -p21,22,23,25,80,139 The first part (-i iplist) is crucial. Nmap starts up in a very slow, conservative mode just in case the user is scanning some host on another continent while using a 300 baud modem which shares bandwidth with a major porn server. If you give nmap a big list with -i, it will use previous tests to benchmark your network performance and should quickly speed up. If you run a separate execution of nmap for each IP, you will always be in the initial slow mode. Using a list of IPs rather than hostnames is preferable so that nmap doesn't have to resolve them (not a big deal). The -n argument tells nmap not to reverse-resolve the hosts you give it. For your purposes, there is no point in wasting time doing this. The -sS (SYN scan) should be fast enough and is more courteous since most sytems won't waste disk space logging it :). -sT might be a little faster in some cases. The -p argument is very important since by default nmap scans more than 2000 common ports. You said you trimmed nmap-services. This should work fine * as long as you use -F *. Otherwise nmap will still scan ports 1-1024. Using a few more ports than I have up there won't hurt you much (they are done in parallel). But scanning thousands of ports will cost you. These options should give you plenty of performance, but if you need more you can reduce the number of retries nmap performs on unrecognized hosts (in osscan.c) and perhaps reduce the PING_TIMEOUT in nmap.h. Then recompile. Cheers, Fyodor -- Fyodor 'finger pgp@www.insecure.org | pgp -fka' Frustrated by firewalls? Try nmap: http://www.insecure.org/nmap/ "Girls are different from hacking. You can't just brute force them if all else fails." --SKiMo, quoted in _Underground_ (good book) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 00:18:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA06627 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:18:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA06621 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:18:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA19997 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:18:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902120818.AAA19997@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Fascinating GPL License 8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:18:18 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What is really interesting is that the oskit team uses FreeBSD a lot :( Amancio /oskit-0.97/threads/x86/switch.S /* * Copyright (c) 1998 University of Utah and the Flux Group. * All rights reserved. * * This file is part of the Flux OSKit. The OSKit is free software, also known * as "open source;" you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms * of the GNU General Public License (GPL), version 2, as published by the Free * Software Foundation (FSF). To explore alternate licensing terms, contact * the University of Utah at csl-dist@cs.utah.edu or +1-801-585-3271. * * The OSKit is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but WITHOUT ANY * WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS * FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GPL for more details. You should have * received a copy of the GPL along with the OSKit; see the file COPYING. If * not, write to the FSF, 59 Temple Place #330, Boston, MA 02111-1307, USA. */ /* * Copyright (c) UNIX System Laboratories, Inc. All or some portions * of this file are derived from material licensed to the * University of California by American Telephone and Telegraph Co. * or UNIX System Laboratories, Inc. and are reproduced herein with * the permission of UNIX System Laboratories, Inc. */ /*- * Copyright (c) 1990 The Regents of the University of California. * All rights reserved. * * This code is derived from software contributed to Berkeley by * William Jolitz. * * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions * are met: * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer. * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software * must display the following acknowledgement: * This product includes software developed by the University of * California, Berkeley and its contributors. * 4. Neither the name of the University nor the names of its contributors * may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software * without specific prior written permission. * * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE REGENTS AND CONTRIBUTORS ``AS IS'' AND * ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE * IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE * ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE REGENTS OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE * FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL * DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS * OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT * LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF * SUCH DAMAGE. * */ /* * Task switch code. */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 09:06:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA07528 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:06:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07518 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:06:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA02028; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:06:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990212090639.A1949@mooseriver.com> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 09:06:39 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BAFUG participation in Bay Area Microsoft Refund Day Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, February 15, the Bay Area FreeBSD community can join with other PC users in returning unused, unwanted, bundled copies of Win9x and other Microsoft software _to Microsoft_ in Foster City, for refund. With television coverage and reporters from all over the world. (This right is guaranteed by _Microsoft's own_ license contract. See: http://www.nl.linux.org/geldterug/license.html) The event is being coordinated with similar events (the same day) in Orange County, New York City, New Zealand, France, Japan, and the Netherlands -- and has gotten huge amounts of publicity. See: http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html (all articles, and timeline) Main Windows Refund Day sites: * http://hugin.imat.com/refund/ <- Monitor this one for the Bay Area. * http://LinuxMall.com/refund/ * http://zork.net/refund/ * http://www.deirdre.org/rebellion.html * http://www.netmonger.net/~onr/refund.html * http://hugin.imat.com/refund/japan/ * http://www.nl.linux.org/geldterug/ * http://www.linux-center.org/detaxe/index.shtml * http://www.uniforum.org.nz/windowsrefund/ Here in the Bay Area, *BSD and Linux people are invited to assemble at any of four "posse" locations, _before_ 10 AM, Monday, when we will all carpool/caravan to Foster City. Open-source essayist Eric S. Raymond will be there. The band "Severe Tire Damage" ("the first band on the Internet") is supposed to be do a gig there, AND send it out over the MBONE. Is Microsoft just a tad nervous? They might be, given that we troublemakers have already transformed two of their recent company PR events into open-source ones: * http://www.svlug.org/events/tea-party-199811.shtml * http://hugin.imat.com/svlug/ * http://www.penguincomputing.com/svlug-rally.html * http://hugin.imat.com/launch98/ * http://www.svlug.org/events/launch98.shtml We are also getting a large amount of press coverage. At last count we had 62 articles including ones from India, Malaysia, France, Australia, New Zealand, England, Sweden, and the Netherlands. Copies of these articles can be found at http://hugin.imat.com/refund/coverage.html A whole flock of people from SCO are even hoping to turn up, _and_ maybe some from Sun Microsystems. And that's not to mention the party in San Francisco, afterwards. (IMPORTANT: See http://hugin.imat.com/refund/directions.html for full details on the following, including directions and maps.) ==> Mountain View: Meet Posse organizer Chris Di Bona outside VA Research, 1235 Pear Ave. #111. near N. Shoreline Blvd. Also, please notify Chris immediately that you will be coming, at mv@linuxmafia.com. (Directions.) (Map.) ==> Oakland: Meet Posse organizer Scott McNeil at the passenger pickup zone at the entrance to MacArthur BART, no later than 10 AM. Also, please notify Scott immediately that you will be coming, at ebay@linuxmafia.com. Please include if you can offer or are in need of a ride! Please note that the BART parking lot is for BART patrons. There is nearby on-street parking. (Directions.) (Map.) ==> San Francisco: Meet Posse organizer Rick Moen inside The CoffeeNet Internet cafe, 744 Harrison @ 3rd/4th Streets, no later than 10 AM. Also, please notify Rick immediately that you will be coming, at sf@linuxmafia.com. (Directions.) (Map.) ==> Santa Clara: Meet Posse organizer Ian Kluft outside the Hotel Marriott Santa Clara, 2700 Mission College Blvd @ Great America, at the "F7" parking post near the tennis courts. Also, please notify Ian immediately that you will be coming, at sc@linuxmafia.com. (Directions.) (Map.) Stick around, because we're also going to have a party to remember afterwards, at The CoffeeNet in San Francisco. Wear your BSD t-shirts! Bring pitchforks and images of Chuck the daemon! Heck, bring BSDI and the blessed ghost of CSRG; it's going to be a blast, in any event. This notice is also available on the BAFUG web site at http://www.bafug.org/RefundDay.html Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 10:48:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA18774 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:48:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA18766 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:48:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id TAA91115; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:48:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Ever wondered what made Unix people special? From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 12 Feb 1999 19:48:04 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 5 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 13:00:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05580 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:58:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from transbay.net (dns1.transbay.net [209.133.53.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA05575 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:58:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ecsd@transbay.net) Received: from rigel.transbay.net (rigel.transbay.net [209.133.53.177]) by transbay.net (8.9.1/8.8.8) with SMTP id MAA14822; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:59:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ecsd@transbay.net) Message-ID: <36C49643.7DE14518@transbay.net> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:59:47 -0800 From: "Eric C. S. Dynamic" Organization: TransBay.Net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com CC: announce@bafug.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, eric@transbay.net Subject: Re: {BAFUG-A} Re: Berkeley BAFUG Meetings, Part II References: <199902092011.MAA09577@destroyer.CS.Berkeley.EDU> <19990209201847.C15639@mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: > >From what I can see, parking on the campus is murder. One lot I pulled into > the other day had a _MIN_ parking fee of $5.00. Needles to say I parked > else where. I usually walk in Berkeley. > > There is parking around Transbay. A couple of block walk will not kill > anyone. Sorry guys this is Berkeley, not a shopping mall. The distance from the lot to the storefront might be more accurately described as 1/2 block. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 13:53:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA12188 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:53:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gras-varg.worldgate.com (gras-varg.worldgate.com [198.161.84.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA12182 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 13:53:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from skafte@gras-varg.worldgate.com) Received: (from skafte@localhost) by gras-varg.worldgate.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA09277 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:53:07 -0700 (MST) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:53:06 -0700 From: Greg Skafte To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: /usr/games/fortune & Married with Children Message-ID: <19990212145306.G8244@gras-varg.worldgate.com> References: <36C28E7D.A6F34C09@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <36C28E7D.A6F34C09@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Thu, Feb 11, 1999 at 08:02:05AM +0000 Organization: WorldGate Inc. X-PGP-Fingerprint: 42 9C 2C A8 4D 2B C9 C4 7D B6 00 B0 50 47 20 97 X-URL: http://gras-varg.worldgate.com/~skafte Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoting Mark Ovens (marko@uk.radan.com) On Subject: Re: /usr/games/fortune & Married with Children Date: Thu, Feb 11, 1999 at 08:02:05AM +0000 > "Jason C. Wells" wrote: > > > > On Wed, 10 Feb 1999, Joey Garcia wrote: > > > > >Any other interesting fortune ideas? > > > > If God didn't want us to eat animals he wouldn't have made them out of > > meat. -Homer J. > > > > ...and in the same vein... > > Are you a vegetarian because you love animals, or because you hate > plants? or Vegetables are what food eats. > > > > Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. > > Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov > _______________________________________________________________ > Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK > CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry > mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Email: skafte@worldgate.com Voice: +403 413 1910 Fax: +403 421 4929 #575 Sun Life Place * 10123 99 Street * Edmonton, AB * Canada * T5J 3H1 -- -- When things can't get any worse, they simplify themselves by getting a whole lot worse then complicated. A complete and utter disaster is the simplest thing in the world; it's preventing one that's complex. (Janet Morris) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 14:05:09 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA13633 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:05:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA13620 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:05:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul10.u.washington.edu (root@saul10.u.washington.edu [140.142.13.73]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id OAA04578; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:04:56 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul10.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id OAA16340; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:04:55 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:04:17 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: Amancio Hasty cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fascinating GPL License 8) In-Reply-To: <199902120818.AAA19997@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote: > * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software > * must display the following acknowledgement: > * This product includes software developed by the University of > * California, Berkeley and its contributors. I wonder how often this tenent of the BSD license is maintained. This is not about a notice in the source or binaries. . This is about advertising. Anyone who advertises software subject to this license must display this attribution. Now Berkeley TCP/IP is ubiqitous right? Why haven't I seen this plastered all over the net? I don't think MS complies. I don't think Sun complies. I know Whistle does. Does the OSKIT webpage? I'll have to check. Hmmm.... nope. Just the GPL as far as I can tell. Yes, they thank FreeBSD folk. No, They do not state that their software uses software from Berkelely as stated in the license. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 14:46:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18082 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:46:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA18077 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 14:46:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA11056; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:46:08 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990212154305.04be99d0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:46:02 -0700 To: "Jason C. Wells" , Amancio Hasty From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Fascinating GPL License 8) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199902120818.AAA19997@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If I ever advertise a product based on code that incorporates that license, I may need to point to a Web page and say that the list of credits on the page is "incorporated by reference." Otherwise, I'd overflow any ad I could afford, even if I used minuscule type! The folks deserve the credit, but I don't think the intent was to make it impossible to advertise. --Brett At 02:04 PM 2/12/99 -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: >On Fri, 12 Feb 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >> * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software >> * must display the following acknowledgement: >> * This product includes software developed by the University of >> * California, Berkeley and its contributors. > >I wonder how often this tenent of the BSD license is maintained. > >This is not about a notice in the source or binaries. . This is about >advertising. Anyone who advertises software subject to this license must >display this attribution. > >Now Berkeley TCP/IP is ubiqitous right? Why haven't I seen this plastered >all over the net? > >I don't think MS complies. I don't think Sun complies. I know Whistle >does. > >Does the OSKIT webpage? I'll have to check. Hmmm.... nope. Just the GPL as >far as I can tell. Yes, they thank FreeBSD folk. No, They do not state >that their software uses software from Berkelely as stated in the license. > >Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | >http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 15:04:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA19202 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:04:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA19194 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 15:04:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15550; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:03:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd015298; Fri Feb 12 16:03:46 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA23640; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:02:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902122302.QAA23640@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Fascinating GPL License 8) To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 23:02:38 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jcwells@u.washington.edu, hasty@rah.star-gate.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990212154305.04be99d0@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 12, 99 03:46:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If I ever advertise a product based on code that incorporates that > license, I may need to point to a Web page and say that the list > of credits on the page is "incorporated by reference." Otherwise, I'd > overflow any ad I could afford, even if I used minuscule type! The > folks deserve the credit, but I don't think the intent was to make > it impossible to advertise. [ ... ] > >> * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software ------------------------------------------- > >> * must display the following acknowledgement: > >> * This product includes software developed by the University of > >> * California, Berkeley and its contributors. So, for example, if you used sendmail before the license changed, and one of your bullet items was "Supports Delivery Status Notification", you would have to display the acknowledgement. But if you didn't bullet-item any features particular to the software, and you didn't bullet item something like "Industry standard sendmail", then you wouldn't have to display the acknowledgement. It's only if you are advertising specific features or incorporation of specific software that you have to acknowledge where you got it. This whole "the advertising clause is too onerous" idiocy is just that: idiocy. You wouldn't be able to bullet item all of the features of just sendmail on one page. Fitting the list of features is more of a problem than the list of acknowledgements that would be required as a result of doing so. FYI, the reason that Berkeley had assignment of license requirements, and the reason code says "contains code donated to Berkeley by Genentech" and similar organizations is to leave the clause at "the University of California, Berkeley and its contributors". If anything, the lack of a requirement to assign license to "The FreeBSD Project, Inc." or some other single entity, and the number of unassigned incorporated programs is what makes the list so large, were you to trigger the advertising clause. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 16:46:18 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA03555 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:46:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA03546 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:46:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id QAA11380 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:46:10 -0800 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.9.2+UW99.01/8.9.2+UW99.01) with ESMTP id QAA23935 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:46:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:45:32 -0800 (PST) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSD Not Compatible With GPL? In-Reply-To: <199902122302.QAA23640@usr01.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.slashdot.org/articles/99/02/12/0939216.shtml Funny, opensource.org says that BSD and GPL are both "opensource". Now FSF says that the advertising clause (recently pointed out in this forum) is not compatible with GPL. This is what I see: The FSF doesn't want to advertise the use of BSD code. The FSF must comply with the BSD license. The FSF must remove BSD code or reimpliment pursuant to the above two statements. Do they purport to reimpliment the world for the sake of the GPL? People cannot just slap GPL on everything in sight, can they? Eventually, through the use of the GPL, any incremental improvements to software cannot be taken advantage _even by the original author_ of a piece of software, if the original author refuse to put GPL on his original work. (a priori the author produces software under a "free" license) Software that varies by license only will diverge. A race for "head count" will ensue. If your software doesn't get mindshare quickly, it may well die. The original authors work becomes the work of someone who GPLed improvements and wouldn't give back. Someone needs to walk over to FSF and slap someone HARD. No Linux is not the enemy. No GPL is not the enemy. If the FSF refuses to allow any software to be distributed without a GPL then how is freedom served? It is starting to seem to me that relicensing software under GPL is taking away from "freesoftware at large" and giving to "freesoftware a la FSF". I am sorry. I love to use my bash and other software. I must say that I am starting to wonder about the politics of the GPL. Isn't this example an example of NIH that Jordan warned us about on freshmeat? (It is nice to see Linux friendly slashdot readers bemoaning the politics of the FSF.) Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 17:16:29 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA06522 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:16:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA06514 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:16:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA69405; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:16:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902130116.RAA69405@rah.star-gate.com> To: "Jason C. Wells" cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: BSD Not Compatible With GPL? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:45:32 PST." Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 17:16:00 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sounds like the GPL industry is setting itself to financial support the BSD industry 8) Enjoy, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 18:37:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14248 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:37:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14241 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:37:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id DAA29605 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:37:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10BTT4-000WydC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:01:58 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Date: 13 Feb 1999 02:01:55 +0100 Message-ID: <7a2iu3$mej$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <19990210110744.28561.rocketmail@send102.yahoomail.com> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > Sorry to shatter dreams, but Linus has been ignorant in a lot of ways. I'm under the impression that the man himself would be the first to agree. It's silly to make out Linus as some kind of God, but he sure ain't no idiot either. > He took Andy's Minix sources, changed them to work for Intel chips, > discussed this all with Tanenbaum, Andy does however admire the work > Linux has done but Linus has been an ungrateful `student'. Do you know this? Do you guess? Generally, BSD people's "factual" statements about Linux are about as correct and accurate as those by Linux people about BSD. Minix already ran fine on Intel x86 CPUs. I haven't bothered too closely with the details of how Linux came about, but my understanding is that the Linux kernel was developed to work with the Minix userland, because that's what was available at the time. Minix quickly gave way to GNU in a feedback process: as Linux gradually supported more of the traditional Unix API, more GNU tools became available, and this became a motivation to further improve kernel functionality. > [silly sniping deleted] -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de >H Deutsche Transhumanismus-Mailingliste echo 'subscribe trans-de' | mail majordomo@lists.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 18:37:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14268 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:37:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14250 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:37:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id DAA29613 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:37:07 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10BTFj-000WydC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:48:11 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Date: 13 Feb 1999 01:48:08 +0100 Message-ID: <7a2i48$md2$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <79t6uv$1kq$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > Mayhaps, but most Linux users and Linux coders view only their OS as the > One True Way, and they don't see how hopelessly broken/hacked at some > places it realy is. Substitute any arbitrary operating system in place of "Linux" above and the statement still rings true. > Also, there's so much about the development process of some Linux > programming efforts that causes alot of patching before it's even > suitable for cross platform development Nothing new or remarkable there. People usually develop on their preferred platform and dependencies and assumptions creep in. When I started with Unix, which incidentally wasn't that long ago, most free software on the net simply assumed you were running a BSD-ish system. (Which Linux 0.99 with GNU userland fulfilled quite nicely.) Getting things to run on a System-V-system, even a supposedly unifying-all-SVR4 Solaris 2.1, took extra work. > > To Linux people, BSD is mostly a non-issue. > They wouldn't know *BSD if it bit them in the butt. I don't know. It *doesn't* bite them in the butt. We have an embryonic Unix user's group (UUG-RN) here. If it hadn't been for my lobbying, it would have been christened a Linux user's group. In fact, I'm not sure how long I'll be able to stem the tide. As far as I can tell out of the one or two dozen people, I'm the only one who regularly runs anything other than Linux. Like it or not, Linux is the Unix market leader. And it shapes people's expectations. At one UUG-RN meeting I brandished the OpenBSD 2.4 CD-ROM. One chap was curious enough to install it. "I was quite disappointed, it doesn't even come with bash!" (Actually, it does come with a i386 *package* for bash.) > Funniest thing happened the other day, someone asked me if FreeBSD was > released under the GPL. I hope you didn't scorn him but rather explained a few things. A great many people equate Open Source with the GPL. They don't know any better, they've never been told. > Most of 'em have no sense of the history if 'nix anyways... Sure. Linux lures more people into the Unix world than anything else before. At the rate of growth it has enjoyed for the last couple of years, most of its user base are bleeding newbies at any point in time. It's a natural development. And those that don't have a university background are unlikely to have had any prior Unix exposure or any awareness that Linux even *is* a Unix. Linux isn't the enemy. Linux isn't technically bad. Modern Linux distributions make for perfectly fine Unices. Most of the Linux bashing I observe from BSD people has no better basis than a splitting of the world into "us" and "them", and rising hate at the realization that "they" enjoy greater popularity. I suggest less fanaticism and more rationality. And folks, please let's drop the unwarranted ad hominem attacks. Lately, with the rising anti- Microsoft sentiments, people paint Bill Gates as some kind of devil. This is absurd. Mr. Gates is simply a very successful business man. Whether due to great ability or sheer luck I can't tell and I don't particularly care about. Now similar mud slinging appears in the BSD community directed against Linus Torvalds. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de >H Deutsche Transhumanismus-Mailingliste echo 'subscribe trans-de' | mail majordomo@lists.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 18:37:16 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14284 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:37:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14270 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:37:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id DAA29616 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:37:11 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10BTnP-000WydC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 02:22:59 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Date: 13 Feb 1999 02:22:56 +0100 Message-ID: <7a2k5g$mgp$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <79t6uv$1kq$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <199902111005.FAA03785@y.dyson.net> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John S. Dyson wrote: > The above notion that "BSD" isn't on their map has been true even for the > last 3 or so years (per my conversations with the indoctorinated.) Yes. Does this surprise you? In the big picture, BSD certainly was less visible then than it is now. You might argue that it should have been more prominent to the few people who delt with an equally invisible Linux back then, but I'm not sure that holds any water. > It is part of both a strategy of the advocates, and partly a result of > the lack of information of those who know nothing else. I don't think anybody is advocating against BSD. Nobody used to advocate against Linux either. People used to shrug, "Linux, what's that?", "does it run MS DOS/Windows software?", "there aren't any applications for it, are there?", "those are just a few hackers in a barn, they can't compete with the professionalism and support of a commercial organization". BSD is still at that level, that's all. Ironically enough, the Linux community, if pointed to it, looks at BSD just the way other people used to look at Linux not that long ago. Linux, on the other hand, has by now grown into big enough a target that people feel compelled to actually advocate against it. > One of the best ways to put down what you think the competition might be, is > to assert their being inconsequential. Linux use isn't growing, it's exploding. That may be the case for BSD too, but it's at a much earlier point on the curve. The Linux advocates have no reason to look at BSD as a competitor. The BSD advocates of course feel smothered. > The key is to not become angry, but simply ignore the political > statements of those with the agenda, and the ignorance of those who > know no better. I see less of an agenda out there than you do, but yes, I basically agree with this. > The best way to combat the ignorance is to present a less narrow view > of the world. Indeed. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de >H Deutsche Transhumanismus-Mailingliste echo 'subscribe trans-de' | mail majordomo@lists.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 18:37:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA14326 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:37:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14309 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:37:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id DAA29636 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 03:37:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10BSUv-000WydC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Sat, 13 Feb 1999 00:59:49 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Date: 13 Feb 1999 00:59:46 +0100 Message-ID: <7a2f9i$mab$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <79t7tp$1n8$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <4.1.19990211123440.00add100@mail.lariat.org> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >The Linux distributions aren't forks. They are different collections. > >There is no common ancestor. > > I would think that Linus' kernel (which many of them patch or add > modules to) could be considered a common ancestor. And many of > the utilities have common origins. Yes, there's some original work > in each, but that's true of the BSDs too, right? I think you don't understand the organizational model behind a Linux distribution. Yes, there is some small amount of original work in most distributions, relating to package management, set-up tools and such, but even those are often shared. However, nearly all of the software that makes up a Linux distribution is maintained elsewhere and only integrated by the makers of the distro into one big system. If you were to organize a Linux distribution in BSD fashion, almost all the source would reside under /usr/src/contrib. The tree model with code forking into branches just doesn't apply to Linux distributions. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de >H Deutsche Transhumanismus-Mailingliste echo 'subscribe trans-de' | mail majordomo@lists.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 18:50:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA15917 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:50:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA15911 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:50:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA13579; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:50:45 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990212194617.04d49c70@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:47:08 -0700 To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linus on IRC In-Reply-To: <7a2f9i$mab$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <79t7tp$1n8$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <4.1.19990211123440.00add100@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:59 AM 2/13/99 +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote: >The tree model with code forking into branches just doesn't apply to >Linux distributions. If Linux isn't a tree, then, what is it? I know: it's a blob. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 18:53:34 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA16215 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:53:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA16209 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 18:53:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA13610; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:53:29 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990212195102.04c70790@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:53:20 -0700 To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linus on IRC In-Reply-To: <7a2k5g$mgp$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <79t6uv$1kq$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <199902111005.FAA03785@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:22 AM 2/13/99 +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote: >I don't think anybody is advocating against BSD. Actually, there's quite a lot of anti-BSD activism on Slashdot, and somewhat covertly by ESR. (It's ESR who has been circulating papers claiming that the GPL is superior to the MIT or BSD licenses because it prevents this evil thing called "forking.") >Linux, on the other hand, has by now grown into big enough a target that >people feel compelled to actually advocate against it. Actually, it's the GPL that really should be the target. It's the GPL that turns Linux into a monster. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 12 19:56:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA22029 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:56:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA22022 for ; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 19:56:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA14100; Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:56:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990212205236.03ebb7c0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 20:55:57 -0700 To: "Jason C. Wells" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD Not Compatible With GPL? In-Reply-To: References: <199902122302.QAA23640@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:45 PM 2/12/99 -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: >http://www.slashdot.org/articles/99/02/12/0939216.shtml > >Funny, opensource.org says that BSD and GPL are both "opensource". Now FSF >says that the advertising clause (recently pointed out in this forum) is >not compatible with GPL. We can expect the FSF, and Stallman in particular, to become bolder as Linux grows more popular. They will both appropriate code without proper permission and seek to prevent others from using it. We may even see the FSF begin to take out software patents and license them ONLY to people who write code that's licensed under the GPL. Stallman claims that the purpose of the GPL is to make code "free," unlike that of Microsoft. Well, as the Who song so aptly put it, "Meet the new boss; same as the old boss." --Brett Glass P.S. -- The message tree at the above URL really *is* worth a read if one has even a passing interest in licensing issues. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 13 01:16:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA15681 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:16:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA15676 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:16:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.62]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA32F2; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:16:27 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7a2i48$md2$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:25:47 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13-Feb-99 Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > >> Mayhaps, but most Linux users and Linux coders view only their OS as the >> One True Way, and they don't see how hopelessly broken/hacked at some >> places it realy is. > > Substitute any arbitrary operating system in place of "Linux" above and > the statement still rings true. *nod* True as well... >> Also, there's so much about the development process of some Linux >> programming efforts that causes alot of patching before it's even >> suitable for cross platform development > > Nothing new or remarkable there. People usually develop on their > preferred platform and dependencies and assumptions creep in. When I > started with Unix, which incidentally wasn't that long ago, most free > software on the net simply assumed you were running a BSD-ish system. > (Which Linux 0.99 with GNU userland fulfilled quite nicely.) Getting > things to run on a System-V-system, even a supposedly unifying-all-SVR4 > Solaris 2.1, took extra work. Aye, but let me elaborate, I have been compiling sources from the Linux world for a while now, and they have this tendency to fix code for one platform and thus breaking it in a multitude of other ways. What I thus observed so far from *BSD initiated projects is that most of those coders think about stability in the source first and then expand on the features. Then again, where this works, there's always some projects where it is the opposite. > Like it or not, Linux is the Unix market leader. And it shapes people's > expectations. At one UUG-RN meeting I brandished the OpenBSD 2.4 CD-ROM. > One chap was curious enough to install it. "I was quite disappointed, it > doesn't even come with bash!" (Actually, it does come with a i386 > *package* for bash.) Heh, sorry, can't feel sorry, Korn shell addict myself... >> Funniest thing happened the other day, someone asked me if FreeBSD was >> released under the GPL. > > I hope you didn't scorn him but rather explained a few things. A great > many people equate Open Source with the GPL. They don't know any better, > they've never been told. Yeah, I told him that we had this great other license which was less restrictive than the GPL. People react funny to that =) >> Most of 'em have no sense of the history if 'nix anyways... > > Sure. Linux lures more people into the Unix world than anything else > before. At the rate of growth it has enjoyed for the last couple of > years, most of its user base are bleeding newbies at any point in time. > It's a natural development. And those that don't have a university > background are unlikely to have had any prior Unix exposure or any > awareness that Linux even *is* a Unix. Which is bad and sad. Most of them think Linux is some sort of advanced MS-DOS. And thus we get all these great things like PATH containing a . mails from root@whatever.com, systems open and wide connected to the Internet. I'm not saying it's bad to be a newbie, but to be clueless is the greatest danger, and with the lemminglike craze that came over Linux, that's what we are seeing now. Sure Linux did great things for a kernel designed by Andy Tanenbaum. But to view him as the True God of Programming like most Linuxers do is absurd. If one talks with kernel programmers on the Linux front it appears that one would have to rewrite the complete kernel to allow for better modularity. > Linux isn't the enemy. Linux isn't technically bad. Modern Linux > distributions make for perfectly fine Unices. Most of the Linux bashing > I observe from BSD people has no better basis than a splitting of the > world into "us" and "them", and rising hate at the realization that > "they" enjoy greater popularity. Mayhaps, I view it more as a fact of technologically adept and people with a sense of quality. Sure, I know of a large number of excellent Linux programmers who exactly follow this, but (it could be blamed on their development model) there simply isn't no-one who tries to maintain sanity in that crazy lot. > I suggest less fanaticism and more rationality. And folks, please let's > drop the unwarranted ad hominem attacks. Lately, with the rising anti- > Microsoft sentiments, people paint Bill Gates as some kind of devil. > This is absurd. Mr. Gates is simply a very successful business man. > Whether due to great ability or sheer luck I can't tell and I don't > particularly care about. Now similar mud slinging appears in the BSD > community directed against Linus Torvalds. When it comes to fanaticism, Linux users win. I find more rationality in the posts I've read from *BSD users. Then again, it might be that same clueless newbie base giving it a bad name. Bill Gates is en entirely different matter. For an Operating System he had marketing advertise as the One True OS for workstation and Server he has failed horribly time and again in my eyes. And I have worked with AIX, *BSD, Linux, NT Server and Workstation and Novell NetWare. The Unices and alike and NetWare win it time and again. I merely addressed Linus Torvalds for being ignorant and hypocrite. For being the `headmeister' for the Linux community and someone embracing GPL fully, he is ignorant of the unwritten rule, give credit where due as well as seeing into the long term future. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl This is my Truth, tell me your's... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 13 01:19:55 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16054 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:19:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA16049 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:19:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.62]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3A45; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:19:51 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990212205236.03ebb7c0@mail.lariat.org> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:29:12 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD Not Compatible With GPL? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jason C. Wells" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13-Feb-99 Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:45 PM 2/12/99 -0800, Jason C. Wells wrote: > >>http://www.slashdot.org/articles/99/02/12/0939216.shtml >> >>Funny, opensource.org says that BSD and GPL are both "opensource". Now >>FSF says that the advertising clause (recently pointed out in this >>forum) is not compatible with GPL. > > We can expect the FSF, and Stallman in particular, to become bolder as > Linux grows more popular. They will both appropriate code without > proper permission and seek to prevent others from using it. We > may even see the FSF begin to take out software patents and license > them ONLY to people who write code that's licensed under the GPL. I'll be the first to raise my voice against that, since that kind of practice would really be akin to any commercial company's bag o' dirty tricks. > Stallman claims that the purpose of the GPL is to make code "free," > unlike that of Microsoft. Any fool who becomes to passioned about a item dear to it is a madman ready to snap. We call it `baby-cherising' at work when a worker can't release a project he's been working on to a multitude of people. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl This is my Truth, tell me your's... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 13 01:27:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA16601 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:27:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA16596 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 01:27:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.62]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA6170; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:27:16 +0100 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7a2iu3$mej$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:36:37 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13-Feb-99 Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> He took Andy's Minix sources, changed them to work for Intel chips, >> discussed this all with Tanenbaum, Andy does however admire the work >> Linux has done but Linus has been an ungrateful `student'. > > Do you know this? Do you guess? Generally, BSD people's "factual" > statements about Linux are about as correct and accurate as those by > Linux people about BSD. No, I know this. I have been studying Operating Systems internals for quite some years now. Linux posted a message on the minix newsgroup asking for testers for the kernel he wrote after messing with Andy's kernel for Minix. He then changed it to work for Intel's (as in that he was trying to support more and more of the architecture). And for your information I have both used Linux and since a month or 8 I have been hooked on FreeBSD (*BSD) for a few simple facts which are motivations for myself to have made the switch. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven join #FreeBSD on Undernet asmodai(at)wxs.nl This is my Truth, tell me your's... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 13 08:31:57 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19707 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:31:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA19702 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:31:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id RAA02073 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 17:31:51 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 6FB511516; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:53:40 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:53:40 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Not Compatible With GPL? Message-ID: <19990213115340.A2172@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199902122302.QAA23640@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Jason C. Wells on Fri, Feb 12, 1999 at 04:45:32PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5026 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Jason C. Wells: > Someone needs to walk over to FSF and slap someone HARD. No Linux is not The guy to slap is rms himself. Recently, he's been attacking the Debian developpers (!!) saying that they should stop from distributing "non-free" software (i.e. non GPL), including separating FTP sites and such. A few Debian developpers I know are quite pissed off about this. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #69: Mon Jan 18 02:02:12 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 13 09:30:50 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA24243 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:30:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA24238 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 09:30:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA20948; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:12:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990213101106.04074da0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 10:12:13 -0700 To: Ollivier Robert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: BSD Not Compatible With GPL? In-Reply-To: <19990213115340.A2172@keltia.freenix.fr> References: <199902122302.QAA23640@usr01.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd like to quote some of this in other forums where people have expressed incredulity about RMS's intentions. Where can I find transcripts of RMS's speeches in which he says such things? --Brett At 11:53 AM 2/13/99 +0100, Ollivier Robert wrote: >According to Jason C. Wells: >> Someone needs to walk over to FSF and slap someone HARD. No Linux is not > >The guy to slap is rms himself. Recently, he's been attacking the Debian >developpers (!!) saying that they should stop from distributing "non-free" >software (i.e. non GPL), including separating FTP sites and such. > >A few Debian developpers I know are quite pissed off about this. >-- >Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr >FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #69: Mon Jan 18 02:02:12 CET 1999 > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 13 11:13:25 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA05082 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:13:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA05063 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 11:13:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 1654 invoked from network); 13 Feb 1999 19:13:12 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 13 Feb 1999 19:13:12 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA05365; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:13:12 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902131913.OAA05365@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Linus on IRC In-Reply-To: <7a2k5g$mgp$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> from Christian Weisgerber at "Feb 13, 99 02:22:56 am" To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 14:13:12 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber said: > > > It is part of both a strategy of the advocates, and partly a result of > > the lack of information of those who know nothing else. > > I don't think anybody is advocating against BSD. > Your statement might be true (that you don't see that it is and has happened), but it is indeed also true that there is and has been significant advocacy in the Linux camp against *BSD and the BSD license. Alot of advocacy happens by word of mouth, and it does exist. Linux's only major handicap as time goes on is and will be the GPL. No matter how good it gets, it is stuck with it now. That doesn't mean that the *BSD's should be complacent because of it's superior free license, and part of my work is to support leapfrogging some technology for the (free) BSD projects. I respect, but am not strongly influenced by other peoples political or economic agenda associated with hatred of companies or certain industry. My interest is that free work that I do be free, and not be encumbered with silly hoops for users of my work to jump through. The "manifesto" seems to be born out of hatred and/or frustration, and maybe it is simply from day one orthogonal to my interests. I kind of like the sort of license that says: use my code, but don't steal credit from me. You don't even have recode my work to get credit or freer use, and so in order to avoid that, I already give you very free use. I also don't take away your right to spend hours, days or months to enhance the work that I did, and profit by selling the derived works -- I support your freedom to do with your own source code as you see fit, including freely redistributing it, without my own excessive control over you. I am not crazy enough to believe that your selling the derived works makes my original code unavailable, because it is my intent and desire to help others with my labor -- but not overly influence (force or trick) you to give your time away. The really cool thing about this is that others who are really moral and ethical tend either to free their derived works or keep it proprietary. It seems to me that those who arbitrarily relicense derived works are being petty (unless, of course their work is substantial), and violate the spirit of free software. In this case the relicensers are no different or even worse than the proprietary redistributors. Proprietary redistributors have the moral advantage of profiting from their work -- profit is not bad, unless excessive. In our world, profit is the way to feed families, give to charities, and to jumpstart the flow of money. By restricting redistribution for "religious" purposes, it only restricts the degrees of freedom for profit, and with decreased interest in a source base for reference works. The possibility of taint comes into play, where patches made against code with ugly and restrictive license will likely come under the more restrictive and unfriendly terms. Those who believe that credits requirements are "wrong" should reconsider their values, because those credits are being requested by the owner and developer of the software. If someone is advertising a specific feature as provided by a piece of software it seems to be fair payment to the developer to provide some kind of credit... The same kind of thing happens in the entertainment industry, and isn't really right or wrong. It is also possible to avoid mentioning the feature, and this allows the small startup, or someone who is not depending primarily on the feature to avoid the complications (however minor) of providing credits on ads. Of course, the cost of providing credits in binary and/or source and documentation distributions is trivial, and not worth talking about. Such (distribution, non ad) credits are necessary in any case using the BSDL, but as I said, trivial in cost. IP workers produce IP for their living. I contend that it is immoral to suggest that workers not get paid for work whose results are valued. Since the worker *will* get paid, money has to be derived from a source other than their direct effort. Licenses that do not value the work provided by past, current or future labor have little in the way of morality to show for themselves. In fact, support schemes depend on the IP workers work being defective, in order for a support product to be worthwhile!!!! Licenses that force cloaking development costs as support costs don't provide for the open and honest communication between supplier and customer as to the real support cost overhead needed to fulfill the support contract. Also, such a support supplier, often very dependent on the free labor from the net, easily sell access to software that is normally available on the net, without full disclosure as to the real costs and effort involved. This is purely an artifact of net-wisdom that supports the sometimes mistaken notion that there is incremental value-added provided to that customer, when there is often little other than packaging, and effectively and FTP command and CDROM pressing :-). Given that, access to free software should cost about what WC charges for a CDROM product, and support should cost a reasonable rate. By restricting access to free software, it is very dishonest to call the software free. Most good software that I use needs very little support. If I need to pay for lots of support, it calls the quality of the software into question... Or maybe... I shouldn't be paying for support, if the software is of reasonable quality, right? -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 13 13:42:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA21479 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:42:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from superior.mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21463 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:42:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@superior.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by superior.mooseriver.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA10655; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:42:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Message-ID: <19990213134206.A10635@mooseriver.com> Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 13:42:06 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Gary Kline Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux tactics Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <199902132126.NAA14285@athena.tera.com>; from Gary Kline on Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 01:26:28PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org *NOTE* This has been moved to chat. BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) is also involved in this. BAFUG has been coordating the Linux people here in the Bay Area to pull this off. More details can be found at our web site; http://www.bafug.org/RefundDay.html Josef On Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 01:26:28PM -0800, Gary Kline wrote: > > Sorry if this would be better considered for -chat or > -advocacy; given the many strengths of *BSD, I don't > think posting this to questions is a waste of bandwidth. > Esp'ly not if it inspires any of our FreeBSD groups to > copy our brother freeunix-lovers tactics. > > I build both of my PC's from nearly from scratch, so didn't > have to pay for DOS/Win; but when I bought my newer P90 box > it _did_ come with DOS. ---This from a cheap mail-order > place, which only proves the total pervasiveness of M$. > > ... > > gary kline > > > Encl: edited news clipping. > > SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A small but growing group of computer owners > who would rather use the upstart Linux operating system than Windows are > demanding refunds for the built-in Microsoft software they do not use. > > In an initiative called Windows Refund Day, a grass-roots group plans to > converge on one of Microsoft Corp.'s Silicon Valley offices Monday in > the hopes of getting refunds. > > The refund movement is gaining widespread support among users of Linux, > a version of the multi-user UNIX operating system designed to run on > personal computers and server computers based on Intel Corp. chips. > > Linux, developed by a Finnish programmer Linus Torvalds in 1991, is > still maintained by Torvalds and a group of far-flung programmers, and > given away over the Internet. No company has control of Linux, but a few > companies now distribute the software for a fee and provide Linux > service and support. > > Windows Refund Day organizers are hoping to glean more attention for the > alternative operating system, which is becoming more widely used in > network servers, and to protest against the fact that it is nearly > impossible to buy a personal computer without Microsoft Windows already > installed. > > All copies of PCs sold with Windows come with an end-user licensing > agreement that states that, if the user does not agree to the terms of > the agreement, they can request a refund. > > But people who seeks a refund usually find themselves in a Catch-22 > bureaucratic nightmare. > > "A lot of people have tried to get their refunds for unused Microsoft > products in the past and they run into bureaucratic obstacles," said Don > Marti, an organizer of Windows Refund Day and president of Electric > Lichen, a Linux marketing company based in San Francisco. > > A Microsoft spokesman, Adam Sohn, said that users who do not agree to > the terms of the licensing agreement should contact their computer > manufacturer for a refund. > > "They might say, 'hey if we sold you the PC and you are not using > Windows, we don't want to be supporting a PC that is not using > Windows,"' Sohn said. "Their license expressly states that, if you don't > agree to the terms, that person should go and contact their OEM > (original equipment manufacturer) and get instructions for a return and > a refund." > > And the nightmare begins. Most computer makers require the user to bring > back the whole computer for a refund, not just the software. > > Dell Computer Corp., for example, requires the user to send back the > entire PC to obtain a refund for the whole system within 30 days. > > "In our current build-to-order system, an operating system is required > to build and ship a fully-tested system," said T.J. Reid, a Dell > spokesman. > > Dell will offer customers Linux on servers, if they request it, but Reid > said it is "extraordinarily rare" for a customer to request an operating > system other than Windows on a desktop computer. > > While the percentage of Linux users on the PC is indeed still a small > fraction compared to Windows, which dominates the market, International > Data Corp. recently said Linux is the fastest growing network operating > system and 1998 server installations were growing at a faster pace than > Windows NT. > > One intrepid individual, an Australian named Geoffrey Bennett, over a > four-month period argued in e-mails with Toshiba Corp. that the contract > says he can return the operating system to the manufacturer, not the PC. > > > Bennett was eventually sent a refund of $110 (Australian) by Toshiba and > he published his saga on the Internet, which has inspired users of other > alternative operating systems, such as Linux, BeOs, FreeBSD and others. > > So what started out as a small grass-roots movement in the San Francisco > Bay Area for a Windows Refund Day has now attracted the attention of > other Linux groups around the world. > > Web sites in other countries, such as Japan, the Netherlands, France and > New Zealand, have been created, explaining to users how to seek refunds > by returning the world's dominant operating system. > > Linux users in two areas of Los Angeles and in New York City also plan > their own refund days Monday, with organized visits to Microsoft offices > in those regions. > > Information posted on the Windows Refund Day Web site > (www.hugin.imat.com/refund/) explains that all participants must be > polite but firm as they descend upon Microsoft offices and the purpose > is not to complain about Microsoft products. > > Organizers for the visit to Microsoft's Foster City, Calif. office said > they expect hundreds of participants, because with the President's Day > holiday in the U.S., many people with the day off will be able to join. > Microsoft's offices are going to be open, they said. > > "It will be a spectacle in some way. That spectacle will depend on the > people and the energy that all comes together in that place," said > Marti. > > Larry Augustin, chief executive of VA Research, a privately held systems > vendor that develops PCs and server computers running Linux, said one of > his staff plans to drive a truck with a rock band. T-shirts will also be > given out, perhaps with a Penguin logo, the symbol for Linux because its > creator Torvalds loves Penguins. > > Do the organizers really expect Microsoft to begin writing checks when > they arrive? > > "Microsoft is very good at handling press. I expect them to be prepared > with something. I don't know what it will be," Augustin said. "It's > going to be a fun event...regardless what Microsoft does, we will have a > good time." > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.0 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 13 18:32:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA04344 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:32:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA04333 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:32:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA23339; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 16:00:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990213154251.03fa0e30@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:49:36 -0700 To: dyson@iquest.net, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linus on IRC Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902131913.OAA05365@y.dyson.net> References: <7a2k5g$mgp$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:13 PM 2/13/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >Your statement might be true (that you don't see that it is and has happened), >but it is indeed also true that there is and has been significant advocacy >in the >Linux camp against *BSD and the BSD license. There is indeed. The strongest voice in this camp is, not surprisingly, Richard Stallman -- who has a proprietary interest in seeing the FSF grow as powerful as possible. >I respect, but am not strongly influenced by other peoples political or >economic >agenda associated with hatred of companies or certain industry. My interest is >that free work that I do be free, and not be encumbered with silly hoops for >users >of my work to jump through. The "manifesto" seems to be born out of hatred >and/or >frustration, and maybe it is simply from day one orthogonal to my interests. It was. John, do you know the full story of the GPL? It was born, or so I'm told, out of Stallman's resentment of commercial spinoffs of academic research. >I kind of like the sort of license that says: use my code, but don't steal >credit >from me. You don't even have recode my work to get credit or freer use, and >so in >order to avoid that, I already give you very free use. I also don't take away >your right to spend hours, days or months to enhance the work that I did, and >profit by selling the derived works -- I support your freedom to do with your >own source code as you see fit, including freely redistributing it, without >my own excessive control over you. I am not crazy enough to believe that your >selling the derived works makes my original code unavailable, because it is >my intent and desire to help others with my labor -- but not overly influence >(force or trick) you to give your time away. Hear, hear! >Licenses that force cloaking development >costs as support costs don't provide for the open and honest communication >between supplier and customer as to the real support cost overhead needed to >fulfill >the support contract. True. Of course, cloaking of payments is all the rage nowadays. Asking for direct payments is a huge turnoff; that's why Slate couldn't make it as a paid subscription site but COULD make it when supported by advertisers. The readers are still paying; they can just delude themselves into believing they're not. They may in fact pay a smidgen less because the cost is spread to other consumers who don't benefit, but this actually is unfair. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 13 18:47:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA06779 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:47:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA06768 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 18:47:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA22884; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:45:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd022864; Sat Feb 13 15:45:23 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA00182; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 15:45:14 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902132245.PAA00182@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linus on IRC To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 22:45:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <7a2i48$md2$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> from "Christian Weisgerber" at Feb 13, 99 01:48:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Like it or not, Linux is the Unix market leader. Pull the other one. Solaris has 5000 times as many applications as Linux. Linux is the Apple of the UNIX market. > Linux isn't technically bad. Yes, it is, from a commercial standpoint. So is BSD. Both of them have interfaces that change far too frequently to be worthwhile porting all the software that exists to them. You write something for DOS or Windows, and it continues to run forever. Same for Solaris, save for the foot-shot of the switch to SVR4, which was necessary because BSD couldn't do SMP. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 13 19:25:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA11493 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:25:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA11477 for ; Sat, 13 Feb 1999 19:25:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id EAA28177 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 04:24:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id ABB6E157F; Sun, 14 Feb 1999 02:44:33 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 14 Feb 1999 02:44:33 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Not Compatible With GPL? Message-ID: <19990214024433.A773@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199902122302.QAA23640@usr01.primenet.com> <19990213115340.A2172@keltia.freenix.fr> <4.1.19990213101106.04074da0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990213101106.04074da0@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Sat, Feb 13, 1999 at 10:12:13AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5026 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Brett Glass: > I'd like to quote some of this in other forums where people have expressed > incredulity about RMS's intentions. Where can I find transcripts of > RMS's speeches in which he says such things? I don't know if there are archives of the various Debian mailing-lists but if so, you should be able to find rms' postings. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #69: Mon Jan 18 02:02:12 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message