From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 3:46:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.wxs.nl (smtp05.wxs.nl [195.121.6.57]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC8BD11BEF for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 03:46:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.51]) by smtp05.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA32AB; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:46:14 +0100 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (daemon.ninth-circle.org [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00405; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:55:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199902210330.VAA88702@nospam.hiwaay.net> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:55:22 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: David Kelly , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Question Cc: "Richard E. Hawkins" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ moved to -chat] On 21-Feb-99 David Kelly wrote: > There are several theories as to that. And as to the origin of our > little red daemon. Some would say the obvious, he's a cooled off devil. > But where does the heat go? Some would observe a cold penguin might > provide an appropriate sink for the heat. Penguins and devils are more > alike than one might think, neither can wear tennis shoes. Tennis shoes > crack and fall off due to the chill of a penguin. What becomes of a > warmed up penguin? A warm pengiun can not remain a penguin else melt > thru the ice and get his tennis shoes wet. Once penguins can wear tennis > shoes do they become daemons too? Or do warmed up penguins taste like > chicken? Truly, this is a major topic of debate for the top philosophers > of our day. :-) Warmed up penguins? www.satanic.org =) That might answer a few questions and raise a tonload of others... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven http://www.freebsdzine.org> asmodai(at)wxs.nl This is my Truth, tell me your's... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 10:12:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33BB211A12 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:12:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id TAA05801 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:12:15 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10EarW-000WyYC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Sun, 21 Feb 1999 16:32:06 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD Date: 21 Feb 1999 16:32:04 +0100 Message-ID: <7ap8tk$pqg$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <7af7uh$dnb$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <199902181552.KAA15641@gatekeeper.itribe.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden wrote: > > Linux uses the standard PC partition model. FreeBSD treats standard > > partitions as slices and creates its own partitions within. Different > > approach, and the FreeBSD one is certainly harder to understand. > > I'm curious why you make this claim? Because that is the impression I get when I need to explain the concept to newbies. Also, simple observation on FreeBSD forums shows that confusion about "slices" and "partitions" is rampant. Heck, even I haven't figured out how disklabel(8) fits into that mess. > It's no more difficult to understand than the dos users concept of an > extended partition with multiple logical drives defined within it. Sure, it's not intrinsically difficult to understand. But extended partitions are just partitions that can be used by the various PC operating systems. FreeBSD does its own thing. I can't re-use the partitions in a FreeBSD slice for, say, Linux. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de >H Deutsche Transhumanismus-Mailingliste echo 'subscribe trans-de' | mail majordomo@lists.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 10:16:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6C6411694 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 10:15:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id TAA18101 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 19:15:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 9F1B71516; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:33:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:33:07 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage... Message-ID: <19990221123307.A18761@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <4.1.19990219111231.03fbef00@mail.lariat.org> <199902210552.AAA18634@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 06:08:45PM +1030 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5026 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Greg Lehey: > To be fair to rms, if GNU is communist (and there's a lot going for > that theory; I've proposed it myself. Funnily, rms wasn't amused), > then FreeBSD is anarchist. That didn't work in society either. Well, I'd say that it has been even less tested than communism... One could argue with me but I don't think one can take USSR example as a real test for communism as it was more a dictatorship than anything else. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #69: Mon Jan 18 02:02:12 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 11:24:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 981F01167C for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 11:24:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 15456 invoked from network); 21 Feb 1999 19:24:12 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 21 Feb 1999 19:24:12 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA02025; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:24:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage... In-Reply-To: <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Feb 21, 99 06:08:45 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 14:24:09 -0500 (EST) Cc: jamie@itribe.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey said: > > To be fair to rms, if GNU is communist (and there's a lot going for > that theory; I've proposed it myself. Funnily, rms wasn't amused), > then FreeBSD is anarchist. That didn't work in society either. > I don't *quite* agree with the characterization that FreeBSD is anarchist. Actually, from a development standpoint (which is where GPL and BSD MOSTLY differ), the BSD approach optionally allows for ownership of ones own investment into derived works. GPL seems to ignore the value in the sense of capital. That GPL helps the merchandising from the standpoint that the derived code *has* to be exposed under certain terms, at the expense of the people with mostly development skills. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 12: 5: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1DA2114A9 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:04:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-65-89.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.65.89]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA10861; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:04:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from wghicks (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA11490; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:22:45 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199902212022.PAA11490@bellsouth.net> To: Jamie Bowden Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage... In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 21 Feb 1999 00:49:04 EST." <199902210552.AAA18634@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 15:22:44 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > What crack is he on? Maybe he didn't notice that communism as a social > experiment failed before it ever got off the ground. The leninist > states that grew out of it also failed, though it took far longer. From a global perspective, it's probably a smart bet for RMS to take a quasi-communist stance. Worldwide, I'd guess that there remain a large number of communists. Having a strong dislike for communism *is* more prominent among Americans. I don't have faith in the traditional form of communist ideology either, but do believe that the _voluntary_ form of communism sweeping through the software industry today is of historical importance and that this "revolution" is borne of similar frustations felt by the serfs (engineers) toward the czars (big business). For these reasons, don't be surprised to find quite a few people in the free software movement possessing strong communist belief systems. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 12:46:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86A4510EBF for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 12:46:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id VAA70698; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:46:41 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD References: <7af7uh$dnb$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <199902181552.KAA15641@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <7ap8tk$pqg$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 21 Feb 1999 21:46:40 +0100 In-Reply-To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de's message of "21 Feb 1999 16:32:04 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) writes: > Jamie Bowden wrote: > Heck, even I haven't figured out how disklabel(8) fits into that mess. I'd be curious to hear what your use of the word "even" is based on. I don't find disklabel particularly difficult to understand. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 13:19: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ska.bsn (d211.syd2.zeta.org.au [203.26.9.83]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5F311A55 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 13:18:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA01473; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:25:25 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from atrn) Message-ID: <19990222082525.A1429@ska.bsn> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:25:25 +1100 From: Andy Newman To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage... References: <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i In-Reply-To: <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net>; from John S. Dyson on Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 02:24:09PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Greg Lehey said: > > > > To be fair to rms, if GNU is communist (and there's a lot going for > > that theory; I've proposed it myself. Funnily, rms wasn't amused), > > then FreeBSD is anarchist. That didn't work in society either. > > > I don't *quite* agree with the characterization that FreeBSD is > anarchist. Actually, from a development standpoint (which is > where GPL and BSD MOSTLY differ), the BSD approach optionally > allows for ownership of ones own investment into derived > works. I think both are capitalist, or at least both methods rely upon the idea of ownership of something (I just posted about this so I'm all revved up about it....excuse me :). Both the BSD license and GPL allow owners of something to control how it may be used. Both allow individual to own things and even to profit and make private capital from them. There's no similarity to (the theoretically perfect) communism where the state owns everything and people worked for the public good etc... The two licenses are just methods of distributing something you own. Both enforce various restrictions on the user (with the GPL being rather more restrictive and over- stepping the boundaries by restricting the licensing available to users of GPL'd things to essentially the GPL). > GPL seems to ignore the value in the sense of > capital. That GPL helps the merchandising from the standpoint > that the derived code *has* to be exposed under certain > terms, at the expense of the people with mostly development > skills. Well it (GPL) forces the public exposure and lack of ownership of intellectual property. It limits the capital available to a person. It doesn't say you can't own expressions of intellectual property. But does restrict how others can use your expressions and forces the same restrictions on them (only a little thing ! :). So trade secrets go to hell with the GPL. As do patents. Leaving you only with copyright to protect the ownership of your work and that only counts for the expression of an idea and not the idea itself which blows a big chunk out of the available means to generate capital in our changing economy. In summary: I guess you're right. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 18:33:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED43110FBC for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 18:33:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id DAA10061 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 03:33:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10EjKB-000WydC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:34:15 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Linux vs FreeBSD Date: 22 Feb 1999 01:34:12 +0100 Message-ID: <7aq8m4$tpa$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <7af7uh$dnb$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Heck, even I haven't figured out how disklabel(8) fits into that mess. > I'd be curious to hear what your use of the word "even" is based on. That "even" is based on my arrogant assumption that I'm not the most bleeding newbie any more. Of course you may disagree. > I don't find disklabel particularly difficult to understand. The way I understand the concept and the man page, disklabel read/ writes/edits the partition table of a dedicated disk or a slice, respectively. But then, disklabel also serves to install a bootstrap. On a sliced disk, it obviously needs to automagically install something outside the FreeBSD slice, because the BIOS is not going to boot from a BSD partition. So disklabel is working both on the inside and somehow on the outside of the FreeBSD slice. That's not very transparent to me. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de See another pointless homepage at . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 21:24:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB91910FA3 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:24:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA09024; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:24:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd009006; Sun Feb 21 22:24:33 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id WAA00679; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:24:30 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902220524.WAA00679@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage... To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 05:24:29 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jamie@itribe.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 21, 99 06:08:45 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Are you now writing, or have you ever written, GPL'ed code? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 21:40:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38FA510F1D for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 21:40:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA09959; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:10:07 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id QAA46425; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:10:06 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990222161006.B93492@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:10:06 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert Cc: jamie@itribe.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage... References: <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> <199902220524.WAA00679@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199902220524.WAA00679@usr07.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 05:24:29AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 February 1999 at 5:24:29 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Are you now writing, No. > or have you ever written, GPL'ed code? Yes. Am I now an outcast? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 22:16:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from spinner.netplex.com.au (spinner.netplex.com.au [202.12.86.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5AB010E36 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:16:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from peter@netplex.com.au) Received: from spinner.netplex.com.au (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spinner.netplex.com.au (8.9.2/8.9.2/Netplex) with ESMTP id OAA23273; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:15:26 +0800 (WST) (envelope-from peter@spinner.netplex.com.au) Message-Id: <199902220615.OAA23273@spinner.netplex.com.au> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Terry Lambert , jamie@itribe.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:10:06 +1030." <19990222161006.B93492@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:15:26 +0800 From: Peter Wemm Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 22 February 1999 at 5:24:29 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: [..] > > or have you ever written, GPL'ed code? > > Yes. Am I now an outcast? Quick, out with the tar and feathers!! :-) Seriously though, I suspect a lot of people have written code that goes under GPL, but that's probably a hell of a lot more than people who have actually written a package and decided to GPL it. There's a lot of stuff out there that people (myself included) write chunks of code intended to be distributed in a GPL'd package. > Greg Cheers, -Peter To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 22:25:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB37910F20 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:25:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gummibear@we.mediaone.net) Received: from ale (we-24-130-60-145.we.mediaone.net [24.130.60.145]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA23919 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:25:03 -0800 (PST) From: gummibear@we.mediaone.net Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990221222916.0079fbb0@we.mediaone.net> X-Sender: gummibear@we.mediaone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:29:16 -0800 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Drivers and Stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was wondering... What ever happened to that Uniform Driver thing that SCO was proposing? Don't remember correctly if they were the ones that actually had anything to do with it, but I think it was a deal that brought the idea of having a uniform method of writing device drivers for "Unix" and "Unix-like" operating systems. Did this die out? Just wondering.. Joey ================================================================ Joey Bear Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net ================================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 22:32:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB0110F0B for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:32:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA18687; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:51:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd018669; Sun Feb 21 23:51:03 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA23079; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:32:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902220632.XAA23079@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage... To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 06:32:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jamie@itribe.net, brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990222161006.B93492@lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 22, 99 04:10:06 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Monday, 22 February 1999 at 5:24:29 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Are you now writing, > > No. > > > or have you ever written, GPL'ed code? > > Yes. Am I now an outcast? Sorry; it was an attempt at referential humor, that would be lost on non-Americans who weren't historians. "Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the Communist Party?" Was "The Question" of Representitive Joseph McCarthy, Chariman of the House Unamerican Activities Committee (HUAC). At the height of the Cold War, the United States conducted "witch hunts", looking for Communists under every rock, and, according to most historical accounts, trampling the Bill Of Rights (the first 10 ammendments to the U.S. Constitution and the basis for most civil liberties in the United States). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 22:34:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B33D6111D5 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:34:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gummibear@we.mediaone.net) Received: from ale (we-24-130-60-145.we.mediaone.net [24.130.60.145]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA27407 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:34:13 -0800 (PST) From: gummibear@we.mediaone.net Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990221223827.007aeab0@we.mediaone.net> X-Sender: gummibear@we.mediaone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:38:27 -0800 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: User Groups and Stuff Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey all!! Well, I decided to just go ahead and start a BSD based user group in the Los Angeles area. I am trying to fill a niche in the Los Angeles based Unix community. I have seen tons of Linux groups, but I don't want to join one of those groups and be labeled as a Linux user. I use *BSD, and I'm DAMN proud of it!! :) Anyways, I needed some help. Before I start going wild promoting the idea and what not, I just needed a bit of help. I have been working on the homepage for this organization and I needed some constructive criticism. The one part where I really need some ideas on is a one-liner description of what BSD is and where/why/how it was created. You can take a look of what I came up with, but I'm not too happy with it. The site needs alot more to go. I hope to have it all up and ready by March. Also, I do have a Yahoo club about BSD...actually my club is on freebsd.org under User Groups. I guess now I *really* have to get it up and moving. ;) Don't want to dissappoint anyone, right? I have decided to call it: BSD Users of Los Angeles (BSDULA) Sort of long and clunky, huh? Oh well, it gets the point across. Oh yeah, I didn't want to just keep it FreeBSD only either so I decided to make it a general BSD user group. I guess Linux people are welcome too, but we'll just try to convert them. *grin* Thanks for your help! Joey ================================================================ Joey Bear Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net ================================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 22:37:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134C810F6A for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 22:37:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA19067; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:37:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:37:17 -0700 To: Andy Newman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) In-Reply-To: <19990222082525.A1429@ska.bsn> References: <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:25 AM 2/22/99 +1100, Andy Newman wrote: >I think both are capitalist, or at least both methods rely upon >the idea of ownership of something (I just posted about this so >I'm all revved up about it....excuse me :). Not so. Copyleft PRETENDS to rely upon the notion of intellectual property but actually twists it so that everyone who subscribes to the notion of IP is shafted. This includes the developer who thinks that, under the GPL, he retains some control of his code. He doesn't, though, because while he can relicense his own version he doesn't have access to any of the modifications made by others. He thus has only the oldest, cruftiest, least debugged version to license. What's more, anyone who would PAY to license code that's available to users for free is a sucker; he cannot make money from that functionality, and so is paying -- perhaps dearly -- for nothing. >Both the BSD license >and GPL allow owners of something to control how it may be used. Nope. See above. >Both allow individual to own things and even to profit and make >private capital from them. Not so. The purpose of the GPL is to destroy businesses, markets, and livelihoods, while duping developers into believing that it somehow protects their interests. >There's no similarity to (the theoretically >perfect) communism where the state owns everything and people worked >for the public good etc... Actually, the similarity is very great. >The two licenses are just methods of distributing something you own. Nope, because the "ownership" is token and valueless. >Well it (GPL) forces the public exposure and lack of ownership of >intellectual property. This contradicts what you said earlier. However, it's closer to reality. >So trade secrets go >to hell with the GPL. As do patents. Leaving you only with copyright >to protect the ownership of your work Under the GPL, copyright doesn't protect you either. In fact, it works against you; hence "Copyleft." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 23:19:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C8310FFE for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:19:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gummibear@we.mediaone.net) Received: from ale (we-24-130-60-145.we.mediaone.net [24.130.60.145]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id XAA10684 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:19:17 -0800 (PST) From: gummibear@we.mediaone.net Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990221232332.007a6760@we.mediaone.net> X-Sender: gummibear@we.mediaone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:23:32 -0800 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: User Groups ... I forgot to send the URL Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Woops!! I started yappin' away so much that I forgot the URL. Here it is: http://people.we.mediaone.net/gummibear/bsdula Right now it's on my ISP's site, but I'm going to mirror it off my box at home. I think my cable modem could handle the traffic just fine. :) Joey ================================================================ Joey Bear Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net ================================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 21 23:51: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9952911647 for ; Sun, 21 Feb 1999 23:50:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA04180; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:09:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd004149; Mon Feb 22 01:09:31 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id AAA21103; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:50:34 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902220750.AAA21103@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: User Groups and Stuff To: gummibear@we.mediaone.net Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:50:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990221223827.007aeab0@we.mediaone.net> from "gummibear@we.mediaone.net" at Feb 21, 99 10:38:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have decided to call it: BSD Users of Los Angeles (BSDULA) > > Sort of long and clunky, huh? Oh well, it gets the point across. How about BULA? Think singing "Boola... Boola, Boola". - | (pause) - | - | boola boola boola Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 0:14:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cs.Technion.AC.IL (csa.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B2D1177D; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:14:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nadav@cs.technion.ac.il) Received: from csd.csa (csd.cs.technion.ac.il [132.68.32.8]) by cs.Technion.AC.IL (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA18841; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:15:52 +0200 (IST) Received: from localhost by csd.csa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA13238; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:15:46 +0200 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:15:46 +0200 (IST) From: Nadav Eiron X-Sender: nadav@csd To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Wes Peters , tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, Dom.Mitchell@palmerharvey.co.uk, desar@club-internet.fr, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: UNIX license issues (was: Searching an "old" BSD stdio) In-Reply-To: <199902220521.WAA00546@usr07.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Also unfortunately, I don't have media, and I think media costs on > > > SVR3 still exceed $100. 8-(. > > > > I've probably still got Johnnie's set in a box downstairs. It took > > a LOT of 1.2MB 5.25" floppies to store the entire SVR3 source code, > >you know? > > It's OK, you're in the clear; they're dead by now. > > > > Now VAX/VMS source was really hard to get your hands on, but we had > > that, too. Or, you could just get it the way Kevin Mitnick did - > > steal it from Rob Clyde. ;^) > > The VMS source license was on microfiche, more's the pity. It's still > in "The VAX Cave". You could get the source on mag tape, and you could > get a Bliss compiler ("Bliss is Ingnorance"), but they were too expensive. > I seem to remember it being a choice between Icarus and machine readable > VMS sources. That was *very* long time ago. About 3 years ago, when I was with my previous employer, we got the OpenVMS/Alpha sources, on CD, for about $2000 (and DEC's Bliss compiler is now in the public domain). Still, you don't get the code for the LMF (license management facility) and other stuff DEC doesn't want you to know about, and it's only listings, so you have to work hard to get source that compiles from it. On the other hand, it was fun (and sometimes even useful) reading. > > Heh. We probably ought to take "old fart days" off the list, or at > least move it to chat (I've set the "Reply-To:"). > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are myown and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > Nadav To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 0:49:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BBBC10F92 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 00:49:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem19.masternet.it [194.184.65.29]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA10218; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:49:05 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222094657.00ae5930@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:57:44 +0100 To: gummibear@we.mediaone.net From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: FreeBSD early days... Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990221223827.007aeab0@we.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 22.38 21/02/99 -0800, you wrote: >Anyways, I needed some help. Before I start going wild promoting the idea >and what not, I just needed a bit of help. I have been working on the In the book The complete FreeBSD, by Greg Lehey you can find history, Linux comparison and other BSD short descriptions. I am wrting my final thesis for graduate on a project. The component projects are FreeBSD, Apache, PostgreSQL, HeiTML (so you can imagine what it deal about :-) and I write a lot about FreeBSD, his history, his market and in comparison with LINUX. Nate Williams told me something about the first days of the project and of a box called : bsd.coe.montana.edu which was a 486 at 33mhz ... Perhaps if Jordan would tell me more about that days ... I'll be very hapy to write it ... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 1: 7: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A552910E84 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:06:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem19.masternet.it [194.184.65.29]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA10505 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:06:47 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222101452.00aeed30@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:15:27 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: FreeBSD early days... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222094657.00ae5930@194.184.65.4> References: <3.0.6.32.19990221223827.007aeab0@we.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09.57 22/02/99 +0100, you wrote: >I am wrting my final thesis for graduate on a project. The component >projects are FreeBSD, Apache, PostgreSQL, HeiTML (so you can imagine what >it deal about :-) and I write a lot about FreeBSD, his history, his market >and in comparison with LINUX. >Nate Williams told me something about the first days of the project and of >a box called : bsd.coe.montana.edu which was a 486 at 33mhz ... >Perhaps if Jordan would tell me more about that days ... I'll be very hapy >to write it ... >I am wrting my final thesis for graduate on a project. The component >projects are FreeBSD, Apache, PostgreSQL, HeiTML (so you can imagine what >it deal about :-) and I write a lot about FreeBSD, his history, his market >and in comparison with LINUX. >Nate Williams told me something about the first days of the project and of >a box called : bsd.coe.montana.edu which was a 486 at 33mhz ... >Perhaps if Jordan would tell me more about that days ... I'll be very hapy >to write it ... Ehm obviusly if there is here someone that would tell me more on the other components I'll be very happy to hear about him/her ... :-) If it is off-topics for the mailing lists please send me a private email... Thanks to everyone ... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 1:13: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7CF5110B9 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:13:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA33764; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:10:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902220910.BAA33764@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: gummibear@we.mediaone.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD early days... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:57:44 +0100." <4.1.19990222094657.00ae5930@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 01:10:15 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You can also ask Julian Elisher julian@whistle.com -- FreeBSD or 386bsd I forgot which really got a boost by allowing hackers from all over the world to hack on the system 8) Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 2:29: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ska.bsn (d178.syd2.zeta.org.au [203.26.9.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB72A110EB for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 02:28:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA02279; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:34:35 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from atrn) Message-Id: <199902221034.VAA02279@ska.bsn> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:34:35 +1100 (EST) From: Andy Newman Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) To: Brett Glass Cc: Andy Newman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (Having re-read the GPL and thinking more I probably agree with everything Brett and John say however I must defend my earlier POV :) On 21 Feb, Brett Glass wrote: > Not so. Copyleft PRETENDS to rely upon the notion of intellectual > property but actually twists it so that everyone who subscribes > to the notion of IP is shafted. This includes the developer who > thinks that, under the GPL, he retains some control of his code. I definitely agree with the point about IP. The GPL destroys the idea of intellectual property by a) forcing publication with no real right of monetary gain and consequently destroying the ability to use trade secrets to protect that IP, and, (b) explicitly disallows patent protection of the IP. However there are (at least) two objects involved, the IP itself and the actual expression of that IP. The expression has a simple amount of copyright in that the author(s) still "own" the expression - not that they have much control over it thanks to the other factors of the GPL as you correctly point out. > Not so. The purpose of the GPL is to destroy businesses, markets, > and livelihoods, while duping developers into believing that it > somehow protects their interests. It destroys the IP business at least. You can derive some value though. The support business of course (as the GPL fans like to stress) - they'll be in a mess if someone can argue that knowledge of the structure of, say, gcc is derived from gcc and covered by the GPL. [GPL & communism] > Actually, the similarity is very great. Definitely closer than I first thought with the "effectively worthless" ownership. There are other ways though... > Nope, because the "ownership" is token and valueless. Pretty much. There is the ability, a la Alladin, to work with the GPL and still derive benefits of ownership (and yes I know about the version differences). It may not be a good model but is certainly exists. And some one is making money out of it. > Under the GPL, copyright doesn't protect you either. In fact, it works > against you; hence "Copyleft." Yes. On closer inspection it does. I don't have a huge problem with it though. As long as I don't want to use the code in ways that forces the GPL on things I don't want it to. It's happened at times, and will probably happen again. I work for a company that pushes IP (Canon) and we often have to avoid GPL'd things in our work. But we have also used and modified GPL'd things and had to make code available, quite happily BTW. You just need to be extremely careful what you do with the GPL'd code. Yes it does suck as a license if you want to freely use the code. You can't. Most people don't comprehend it - I'd never thought about it much, basically ignored it (and avoided using GPL code in work). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 4:45:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw5.pacbell.net (mail-gw5.pacbell.net [206.13.28.23]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 255CD10E7C for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:45:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from jackv (adsl-209-76-108-106.dsl.pacbell.net [209.76.108.106]) by mail-gw5.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id EAA13909 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 04:45:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000301be5e61$32179ec0$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> Reply-To: "Jack Velte" From: "Jack Velte" To: Subject: San Jose Mercury News Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:39:40 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Timing is everything, and for Linux it's good BY CHRIS NOLAN CNolan@sjmercury.com Mercury News Staff Writer THIS Linux thing is really taking off, isn't it? With announcements that IBM, Hewlett-Packard and others are shipping machines with Linux software inside, the guerrilla movement is inching its way toward becoming a small-scale revolution. Last week, the IBM announcement was credited by the Associated Press with lowering Microsoft's stock price by more than $4 a share. ``That makes my day,'' said Paul McNamara, vice president of business development for Red Hat Inc., the software company that sells a variety of Linux-based software packages for IBM and others. Even if Linux isn't the main reason stock traders are off Microsoft, the perception that the Linux operating system represents a threat is a measure of its new influence. That's saying something for a piece of computer code that's distributed free, that relies on a network that is unpaid and unconnected -- except by expertise, enthusiasm and programming knowledge -- to innovate and expand. It's just the kind of success that Netscape was hoping for when it released the source code for its browser. That move was widely regarded as an acknowledgment that Microsoft had trounced Netscape in the browser wars, but it doesn't seem to have worked too well. So why is Linux doing so well? Is it the Silicon Valley Linux User Group's gift for public relations? That's the rag-tag bunch that stormed Microsoft's local office last week looking for refunds for their unused Windows software. Maybe. Is it the general perception that Microsoft, once considered invincible because of its wealth, is getting trounced by the Department of Justice? An unfavorable ruling would open the way for rival operating systems like Linux to thrive. Possibly. But maybe Linux just has good timing. One of the phenomena that's clearly helping Linux develop is the enthusiasm of those self-described idealistic programmers who, having made buckets of money at companies like Apple Computer Inc. and Netscape Communications Corp., are happy to tweak Linux. They like to write code and they don't have day jobs. Apple Macintosh designer Andy Hertzfeld, who is generally credited with designing that machine's friendly software, is quietly doing Linux work. Hertzfeld is sincerely adamant about not talking to the press; not even The Gossip Columnist could break his resolve. So it's hard to know exactly what's on his mind or to say what's he doing. But his interest in Linux says a lot. With the Netscape-AOL deal moving ahead, there's going to be another group of code jocks like Hertzfeld casting about for new projects. And, of course, it's easy for all these programmers to talk to one another. ``It really is the Internet that's enabled this to happen,'' said McNamara. ``The Internet allows the guy sitting in Hungary to do what he loves and to collaborate with a bunch of guys in North Carolina.'' Linux has good timing in another respect. It's coming along just as the interest in developing embedded systems -- devices that come with ready-to-go software -- is getting more intense. ``This free product is just more reliable,'' said Jim Barton, chief technical officer for TiVo, a Sunnyvale start-up that runs Linux in its television set-tops. ``It just works better.'' And when it doesn't work, it's easier to fix, said Barton. He can either fix the bug himself or rely on work done by others, who are required by the terms of the code's license to make their work public. Small developers don't have to wait for the tech guys at some big company to fix bugs that might be affecting their product development. That's all important as embedded systems become more ubiquitous, said Barton. Either way, people are making money. ``It's sort of like thinking the only business model for highways is to collect tolls,'' said McNamara. ``We look at it differently: We have the contract to clear snow.'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 7:38:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ogurok.com (ogurok.com [208.212.72.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF2F10E8D for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 07:37:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from oleg@ogurok.com) Received: from birch (birch.ogurok.com [209.208.150.186]) by ogurok.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA88269 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:57:23 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from oleg@ogurok.com) Message-ID: <006b01be5e79$ce490be0$ba96d0d1@birch.ogurok.com> From: "Oleg Ogurok" To: Subject: Lawsuit with Novel Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:41:24 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3610.800 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3610.800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all. I heard about some lawsuit between FreeBSD and Novel. What was this about? Any info on web? Just personal curiousity. Thank you. Oleg Ogurok oleg@ogurok.com http://www.ogurok.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 8:31:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CE5E10EE8 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:31:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gummibear@we.mediaone.net) Received: from ale (we-24-130-60-145.we.mediaone.net [24.130.60.145]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id IAA12567 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:31:08 -0800 (PST) From: gummibear@we.mediaone.net Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990222083515.007a6c00@we.mediaone.net> X-Sender: gummibear@we.mediaone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:35:15 -0800 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD early days... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222094657.00ae5930@194.184.65.4> References: <3.0.6.32.19990221223827.007aeab0@we.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:57 AM 2/22/99 +0100, you wrote: >At 22.38 21/02/99 -0800, you wrote: > >In the book The complete FreeBSD, by Greg Lehey you can find history, Linux >comparison and other BSD short descriptions. Yes, I have the book right here and I used it as a refrence (I'll be using it alot too...Greg I hope you won't mind. :) ) Also, I have read the introduction to the BSD 4.4 book (the red book) which has a pretty good history section. Although, I think I should first explain what BSD is, then move on to explaining what Free/Open/Net BSD is. Basically, my website has a sort of "splash" screen which has my BSDULA logo and I wanted a one-liner description/definition of BSD. I feel that is will help people that came to the site by accident understand what the site is about before moving into the more informative documents. Also, you brought up another important issue....the comparisons between Linux and *BSD. I probably should mention something about GPL vs. BSD License, but I don't know enough about it to say anything accurate. Anyone wanna help me on that? A nice short write up on the pro's and cons' of each license? Thanks for the ideas and pointers. Joey >Best Regards, >Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" >http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco >http://www2.masternet.it ================================================================ Joey Bear Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net ================================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 8:47: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4870A10E5F for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:47:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from jackv (adsl-209-76-108-106.dsl.pacbell.net [209.76.108.106]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id IAA27103 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 08:47:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <000301be5e82$f69a0140$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> Reply-To: "Jack Velte" From: "Jack Velte" To: Subject: Little Linux Is Picking Up Some Big Buddies Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:46:46 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (http://www.businessweek.com/today.htm) While most of Bill Gates's attention has been focused on his legal battle with the Justice Dept., a stealthier enemy has snuck up behind Microsoft (MSFT) and may be poised to strike it a body blow. The enemy is Linux, the relatively new computer operating system that's a version of an older one called Unix. Now that the upstart operating system has IBM Corp.'s (IBM) blessing, thanks to a Feb. 18 agreement with a private Linux distribution company called Red Hat Software Inc., Corporate America will be more likely to accept it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 9:48:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4736911024 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 09:48:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18631 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:48:12 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:48:12 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Donating Copyrights? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A thread I've seen elsewhere caused me to begin wondering, is there some sort of process, program, etc for people to donate the copyrights of various things to the FreeBSD project if they wish to? [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 10: 8:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92895115A0 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:08:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem22.masternet.it [194.184.65.32]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA16969; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:05:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222190829.009d1f00@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:10:40 +0100 To: gummibear@we.mediaone.net From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: FreeBSD early days... Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990222083515.007a6c00@we.mediaone.net> References: <4.1.19990222094657.00ae5930@194.184.65.4> <3.0.6.32.19990221223827.007aeab0@we.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Yes, I have the book right here and I used it as a refrence (I'll be using >it alot too...Greg I hope you won't mind. :) ) Also, I have read the >introduction to the BSD 4.4 book (the red book) which has a pretty good >history section. Yes I have it too ... the one written by McKusick, Bostic, Karels and Quarterman ... >Also, you brought up another important issue....the comparisons between >Linux and *BSD. I probably should mention something about GPL vs. BSD >License, but I don't know enough about it to say anything accurate. Anyone >wanna help me on that? A nice short write up on the pro's and cons' of >each license? I need it too, so please cc to me too :-) Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 10:29: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32859115B7 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:28:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem22.masternet.it [194.184.65.32]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA17172; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:27:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222191438.009d3f00@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:36:25 +0100 To: "Oleg Ogurok" , From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: Lawsuit with Novel In-Reply-To: <006b01be5e79$ce490be0$ba96d0d1@birch.ogurok.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10.41 22/02/99 -0500, Oleg Ogurok wrote: >Hi all. > >I heard about some lawsuit between FreeBSD and Novel. What was this about? >Any info on web? Just personal curiousity. Thank you. "In 1992, AT&T's subsidiary USL (UNIX System Labs) filled a lawsuit against Berkeley Software Development Inc. (BSDI), the manufacteur of the BSD/386 and (later) BSD/OS operating systems, for alleged distribution of AT&T source code in violation of license agreements. They subsequently extended the case to University of California at Berkeley." (The Complete FreeBSD, Lehey) The final agreement arrive in 1994 between Novel (who had bought the right from AT&T in the meantime) and BSDI. Novel was attribuited of all rights on NET/2 distribution, but in exchange bless the new upcoming 4.4BSD to be free from any duties. FreeBSD and all other OS based on NET/2 distribution where obliged to be rewritten using only source code from 4.4BSD (which they are prepared to do in any case...). FreBSD 1.1.5.1 was the last based on NET/2 and was released in July 1994. They worked hard to release the new version, even because the 4.4BSD was not fully complete at this time. FreeBSD version 2.0 was the first relase based on the 4.4BSD and was released in December 1994. Then in January I arrived and bought my first CD, but I was not able to install it. :-) Is it correct ? Any actors can confirm ? Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 10:36: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uswgne6.uswc.uswest.com (uswgne6.uswest.com [204.26.87.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44D1F10FDB for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:35:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mmeola@ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com) Received: from egate.mnet.uswest.com (mailgate.uswc.uswest.com [151.119.130.8]) by uswgne6.uswc.uswest.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA01457 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:36:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from ima2wk6.ima2 (ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com [151.116.151.207]) by egate.mnet.uswest.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA17936 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:35:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from ima2wk6.uswc.uswest.com by ima2wk6.ima2 (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA22585; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:35:37 -0700 Message-Id: <199902221835.LAA22585@ima2wk6.ima2> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 From: Matt Meola To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:35:37 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, 18 Feb 1999, Matt Meola wrote: > > > Well, it seems that we've been going in parallel paths; I've written a > > Python script to do essentially the same thing, 'cept that it will go > > ahead and build/install the necessary ports as well. > > > > The only thing is, making a port will install over an older version, > > yet the pkg stuff for the old version remains in /var/db/pkg/. So, is > > it proper to do a "make deinstall" before the "make all install"? > > How will that cope with ports that are installed and rely on the port you > are about to "make deinstall"? Darn good question. Perhaps I ought to concentrate instead on a script which would look for "old" ports and optionally hack them off the hard drive... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 10:46:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E417711A7C for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 10:44:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem22.masternet.it [194.184.65.32]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id TAA17439; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:43:36 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222194935.009c8660@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:52:16 +0100 To: gcross@netspace.net.au, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool In-Reply-To: <199902181150.WAA13777@whirlwind.netspace.net.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Out of sheer originality, I have named it portcheck, and you can read >about it and download the tarball from: > > http://www.netspace.net.au/~gcross/portcheck.html > >I would appreciate comments, bug reports, etc, before I announce it to >a wider audience. A good thing to think too is to make a proggy which delete/archive/move the old distfile files when they are not required anymore from their port (perhaps because the port was upgraded to a newer version) Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 11:34:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0846115B7 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:34:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA18170; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:34:17 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:34:16 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) References: <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990222082525.A1429@ska.bsn> <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 11:37:17PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 11:37:17PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >Both allow individual to own things and even to profit and make > >private capital from them. > > Not so. The purpose of the GPL is to destroy businesses, markets, > and livelihoods, while duping developers into believing that it > somehow protects their interests. Come off it. As a strong FreeBSD supporter who prefers the GPL to the various other free software licenses I've seen, I find this thread quite disturbing. People seem to be simultaneously upset about something that they percieve as taking away the freedom to use whatever license they want, while complaining about people who choose to use a different license. The purpose of the GPL is to allow people to license their code under the GPL. Period. When I write software, I happen to want the restrictions of the GPL. I do not want my code to ever become non-free. That's my right - it's my code. The reason that I write free software in the first place is that I have seen what comes of proprietary software, and I don't like it, and I will never be a part of it. The GPL allows me to produce free software, and yes, it does hurt people who want to use my code in proprietary programs, but that's too bad - I'm not interested in helping the makers of proprietary programs. Can't we stop all this nonsensical comparison of software licenses to various "evil" political/economic systems, and just acknowledge that we have differences of opinion when it comes to the way software should be licensed? I will never be convinced that proprietary software is good, and many people will never be convinced that it is bad. We can still get along. Every day I use FreeBSD it bothers me a little that things like softupdates and parts of vinum are not free software. Maybe one day I or someone else will write free replacements for those things, and I will be a little less bothered. But for now, I file that away with the guy who didn't signal before changing lanes and the Dilbert strip not being particularly funny today and the thousands of other things that bother me, and life goes on. -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net "Good tools allow users to do stupid things." -- Clay Shirky To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 11:42:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 668BB10F49 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:42:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19065; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:42:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990222144214.B25682@netmonger.net> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:42:14 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: San Jose Mercury News References: <000301be5e61$32179ec0$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <000301be5e61$32179ec0$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net>; from Jack Velte on Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 07:39:40AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 07:39:40AM -0500, Jack Velte wrote: > Timing is everything, and for Linux it's good [...] > So why is Linux doing so well? Is it the Silicon Valley Linux User Group's > gift for public relations? [...] > Is it the general perception that Microsoft [is in legal trouble]? [...] > But maybe Linux just has good timing. Does it ever occur to these reporters that Linux's success just might have something to do with the fact that Microsoft products simply do not work, and Linux does? -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net "Good tools allow users to do stupid things." -- Clay Shirky To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 12:34:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED60F11591 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:33:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA25435; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:33:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222132000.04005810@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:33:41 -0700 To: Christopher Masto , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) In-Reply-To: <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net> References: <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990222082525.A1429@ska.bsn> <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:34 PM 2/22/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: >As a strong FreeBSD supporter who prefers the GPL to the various other >free software licenses I've seen, I find this thread quite disturbing. Perhaps you don't understand the full intent, implications, or effects of the GPL. If you did, you might find the GPL to be quite disturbing. I certainly do. >People seem to be simultaneously upset about something that they >percieve as taking away the freedom to use whatever license they want, >while complaining about people who choose to use a different license. Most of the people who use the GPL are unaware of its history, its intent, or its effects. They mistakenly believe that the use of the GPL benefits them (it does not), and do not understand the way in which it sabotages developers who seek to make an honest living. >When I write software, I happen to want the >restrictions of the GPL. I do not want my code to ever become >non-free. If you use a Berkeley-style license, your code will not become "non-free." In fact, it is MORE free than it is under the GPL, because it can be used by anyone for any purpose. It has been published for the world to see, and that cannot be taken away. Only code that others write to work with your code may be kept private, and that is their right. >That's my right - it's my code. The reason that I write >free software in the first place is that I have seen what comes of >proprietary software, and I don't like it, Arguments that "what comes of proprietary software" is bad are generally specious and/or appeal solely to one egregious example: Microsoft. >The GPL allows me to produce free software, and yes, it does >hurt people who want to use my code in proprietary programs, but >that's too bad - I'm not interested in helping the makers of >proprietary programs. In that case, you are intentionally sabotaging the ability of all developers to make a living. As such, you are engaged in a process that's destructive, rather than constructive. >Can't we stop all this nonsensical comparison of software licenses to >various "evil" political/economic systems, and just acknowledge that >we have differences of opinion when it comes to the way software >should be licensed? It is not appropriate to "stop" discussions of such an important issue. The fact is that the GPL is anti-business, anti-consumer, and anti-competitive, and was created in an atmosphere of spite and destructiveness. It's not nonsensical; it's so. >I will never be convinced that proprietary software is good, I see: Making an honest living as a developer is OBVIOUSLY evil and wrong. So, you intend to take it upon yourself to make sure that these horrible people cannot find jobs doing the work they love. What a positive attitude! Oh, and by the way, better throw out your computer. Its ROMs contain -- evil of evils -- PROPRIETARY software! Oh, and better do the same with your hard drive, your laser printer, your modem, your microwave oven, your car.... You wouldn't want to be seen as a supporter of such an evil horror, would you? --Brett GLass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 12:44:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA73811662 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:44:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA25581; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:44:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222134234.0400ce70@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:44:26 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: San Jose Mercury News In-Reply-To: <19990222144214.B25682@netmonger.net> References: <000301be5e61$32179ec0$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> <000301be5e61$32179ec0$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:42 PM 2/22/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: >Does it ever occur to these reporters that Linux's success just might >have something to do with the fact that Microsoft products simply do >not work, and Linux does? If it were merely that, then FreeBSD would be equally successful -- more successful, in fact, as it it smore reliable. Timing, PR, and advocacy (though done largely by fanatics) allowed Linux to gain a foothold and eclipse the technologically superior BSD derivatives. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 12:49:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D1111AC1 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:49:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA19941 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:49:42 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:49:42 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: reviewers for a free software license Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Would anyone care to review a software license I and a friend are working on? The goal is to present the basic ideas in a berkeley style license in a simple text file that people can simple include with their work or refer to by name/url the way they can with the GPL and Artistic licenses. (a secondary goal is to make the license applicable to non software work, such as tutorials, man pages, etc) Feedback would be very appreciated. :) The license is at http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ufl.txt or finger ufl@o-o.org Thank you :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 12:59:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D20F810FBE for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 12:59:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA25764; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:59:22 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222135121.03fb4a10@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:59:20 -0700 To: Licia , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Is this a scam? The link below is bogus; it redirects to http://phf.apache.org/phf_abuse_log.cgi A URL which logs attempts to break into Web servers via a CGI script shipped with old versions of Apache. --Brett Glass At 02:49 PM 2/22/99 -0600, Licia wrote: > >Would anyone care to review a software license I and a friend are working on? >The goal is to present the basic ideas in a berkeley style license in a >simple text file that people can simple include with their work or refer >to by name/url the way they can with the GPL and Artistic licenses. > >(a secondary goal is to make the license applicable to non software work, such > as tutorials, man pages, etc) > >Feedback would be very appreciated. :) > >The license is at http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ufl.txt >or finger ufl@o-o.org > >Thank you :) > > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] > [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] > [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] > > main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 13: 9:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E262011ADE for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:09:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20022; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:09:36 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:09:36 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222135121.03fb4a10@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm not sure in what way someone would attempt to use the development of a license as a scam, however I am sure you will inform me. It was a minor problem with file permissions. It is available through the web url now that I've fixed it and was already available at the finger address specified. Thank you so much for checking both addresses before leaping to accuse someone of something. On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Is this a scam? The link below is bogus; it redirects to > > http://phf.apache.org/phf_abuse_log.cgi > > A URL which logs attempts to break into Web servers via a CGI script shipped > with old versions of Apache. > > --Brett Glass > > At 02:49 PM 2/22/99 -0600, Licia wrote: > > > > >Would anyone care to review a software license I and a friend are working on? > >The goal is to present the basic ideas in a berkeley style license in a > >simple text file that people can simple include with their work or refer > >to by name/url the way they can with the GPL and Artistic licenses. > > > >(a secondary goal is to make the license applicable to non software work, such > > as tutorials, man pages, etc) > > > >Feedback would be very appreciated. :) > > > >The license is at http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ufl.txt > >or finger ufl@o-o.org > > > >Thank you :) > > > > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] > > [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] > > [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] > > > > main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 13: 9:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF67511C6B for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:09:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA28274; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:09:43 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990222160942.A24590@netmonger.net> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:09:42 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) References: <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990222082525.A1429@ska.bsn> <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net> <4.1.19990222132000.04005810@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222132000.04005810@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 01:33:41PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 01:33:41PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:34 PM 2/22/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: > > >As a strong FreeBSD supporter who prefers the GPL to the various other > >free software licenses I've seen, I find this thread quite disturbing. > > Perhaps you don't understand the full intent, implications, or effects > of the GPL. If you did, you might find the GPL to be quite disturbing. > I certainly do. Perhaps you don't understand that SOME OF US ARE NOT YOU. I certainly do. > >People seem to be simultaneously upset about something that they > >percieve as taking away the freedom to use whatever license they want, > >while complaining about people who choose to use a different license. > > Most of the people who use the GPL are unaware of its history, its > intent, or its effects. They mistakenly believe that the use of > the GPL benefits them (it does not), and do not understand the way > in which it sabotages developers who seek to make an honest living. You claim that you are making "an honest living". I claim that you are hurting your neighbors. > >When I write software, I happen to want the > >restrictions of the GPL. I do not want my code to ever become > >non-free. > > If you use a Berkeley-style license, your code will not become > "non-free." In fact, it is MORE free than it is under the GPL, because > it can be used by anyone for any purpose. I do not want my code to be used for non-free purposes. > Only code that others write to work with your code may be kept > private, and that is their right. No, it's not. It's my code, and it's my right to not give them that permission. If you want to use my code, you have to accept my terms, and my terms are that it remain free. If you don't like that, you'll have to write your own code instead of using mine. > >That's my right - it's my code. The reason that I write > >free software in the first place is that I have seen what comes of > >proprietary software, and I don't like it, > > Arguments that "what comes of proprietary software" is bad are generally > specious and/or appeal solely to one egregious example: Microsoft. I'm not making an argument against proprietary software. I do not care to have such an argument. I have my reasons for not wanting to be a part of the proprietary software world. That is why I use the GPL. > >The GPL allows me to produce free software, and yes, it does > >hurt people who want to use my code in proprietary programs, but > >that's too bad - I'm not interested in helping the makers of > >proprietary programs. > > In that case, you are intentionally sabotaging the ability of all > developers to make a living. As such, you are engaged in a process > that's destructive, rather than constructive. No, I'm deciding how the code I write is allowed to be used. The same way you can decide to hoard your code. > >Can't we stop all this nonsensical comparison of software licenses to > >various "evil" political/economic systems, and just acknowledge that > >we have differences of opinion when it comes to the way software > >should be licensed? > > It is not appropriate to "stop" discussions of such an important issue. > The fact is that the GPL is anti-business, anti-consumer, and > anti-competitive, and was created in an atmosphere of spite and > destructiveness. It's not nonsensical; it's so. It sounds like the atmosphere of spite and destructiveness is coming from you. > >I will never be convinced that proprietary software is good, > > I see: Making an honest living as a developer is OBVIOUSLY evil and wrong. You can make an honest living as a developer without hurting your neighbors. I do not believe that certain things are right to do just because you are paid for them. Making an honest living as a gas chamber operator is OBVIOUSLY evil and wrong. > So, you intend to take it upon yourself to make sure that these horrible > people cannot find jobs doing the work they love. What a positive > attitude! So, you intend to take it upon yourself to make sure than these horrible people (free software developers) cannot find happiness donating the work they love, because you're afraid that it will decrease the amount of money you're able to grub. What a positive attitude! > Oh, and by the way, better throw out your computer. Its ROMs contain -- > evil of evils -- PROPRIETARY software! Oh, and better do the same with your > hard drive, your laser printer, your modem, your microwave oven, your > car.... You wouldn't want to be seen as a supporter of such an evil > horror, would you? I would like to see free replacements for these things. But you don't seem to understand that I am capable of rational behavior. You see GPL and have a shit-fit. As I mentioned before, I am not happy with FreeBSD's license, but I use it anyway. I am not happy with proprietary BIOS software in my computer, but I use it anyway. I am not happy with the Southern State Parkway, but I use it anyway. I live in the real world, unlike those who believe that the very existence of the GNU GPL as an option under which I can license my code is undermining the very fabric of our glorious capitalist software industry. -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net "Good tools allow users to do stupid things." -- Clay Shirky To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 13:20:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22AD4110DD for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:20:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem12.masternet.it [194.184.65.22]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA19204; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:19:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222222427.00a96ef0@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:28:34 +0100 To: Licia From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 14.49 22/02/99 -0600, you wrote: > >Would anyone care to review a software license I and a friend are working on? >The goal is to present the basic ideas in a berkeley style license in a >simple text file that people can simple include with their work or refer >to by name/url the way they can with the GPL and Artistic licenses. > >(a secondary goal is to make the license applicable to non software work, such > as tutorials, man pages, etc) > >Feedback would be very appreciated. :) > >The license is at http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ufl.txt >or finger ufl@o-o.org I can make an italian translation if you need it... Even if I think there are not too many italian developer here :-) Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 13:26:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F22710F2D for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:24:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20168; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:24:19 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:24:19 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222222427.00a96ef0@194.184.65.4> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > At 14.49 22/02/99 -0600, you wrote: > > > >Would anyone care to review a software license I and a friend are working on? > >The goal is to present the basic ideas in a berkeley style license in a > >simple text file that people can simple include with their work or refer > >to by name/url the way they can with the GPL and Artistic licenses. > > > >(a secondary goal is to make the license applicable to non software work, such > > as tutorials, man pages, etc) > > > >Feedback would be very appreciated. :) > > > >The license is at http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ufl.txt > >or finger ufl@o-o.org > > I can make an italian translation if you need it... > Even if I think there are not too many italian developer here :-) > That would be absolutely wonderful! :) You might want to wait for a month or so though, until we settle on an absolute final version, and find some sort of 'responsible agency' we can donate the copyright to the license to :) (I'm a bit uncomfortable with having myself as copyright holder for some reason :) ) You are more than welcome to do so now of course, just advising that the text may change a bit as people more educated than myself and my friend weigh in with their thoughts on the matter :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 13:48:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00E281118D for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 13:48:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA26342; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:48:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222144038.03fa9100@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:48:02 -0700 To: Licia From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990222135121.03fb4a10@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:09 PM 2/22/99 -0600, Licia wrote: >I'm not sure in what way someone would attempt to use the development of a >license as a scam, however I am sure you will inform me. URLs in postings to mailing lists are sometimes used to attract readers of the list to a page that exploits a browser security hole. >It was a minor problem with file permissions. It is available through the >web url now that I've fixed it and was already available at the finger address >specified. > >Thank you so much for checking both addresses before leaping to accuse someone >of something. Many firewalls block finger, because it is so often used for nefarious purposes. However, even if it worked, it would not necessarily mean that there was not an exploit at the URL. Note that I did not *say* it was a scam; I asked. However, it give the appearance of one.... Especially since it accused the READER of attempting to break into the system via an exploit attempted mostly by "skript kiddies." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 14:32:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 618AE11194 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:32:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA26778; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:32:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222144835.0404ba70@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:32:42 -0700 To: Christopher Masto , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) In-Reply-To: <19990222160942.A24590@netmonger.net> References: <4.1.19990222132000.04005810@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990222082525.A1429@ska.bsn> <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net> <4.1.19990222132000.04005810@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:09 PM 2/22/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: >You claim that you are making "an honest living". I claim that you >are hurting your neighbors. Gee, I guess I'm also "hurting" my neighbors by not giving them my car, my house, and the contents of my bank account. >> If you use a Berkeley-style license, your code will not become >> "non-free." In fact, it is MORE free than it is under the GPL, because >> it can be used by anyone for any purpose. > >I do not want my code to be used for non-free purposes. Do you use your house for "non-free" purposes? Your computer? Your car? Heck, that's not fair. Better give them away. You're hurting your neighbors by depriving them of everything you own. ;-) >> Only code that others write to work with your code may be kept >> private, and that is their right. > >No, it's not. It's my code, and it's my right to not give them that >permission. You can't really keep them from doing so anyway. This is another fallacy often put forth by GPL proponents: that they'd be able to catch someone who used their code in a commercial product. Sorry, guy, if someone did that, odds are you'd never know. And if you suspected, what would you do? Do you have the money to sue a large corporation such as Microsoft? It's a fool's errand. Again, get real. >If you want to use my code, you have to accept my terms, >and my terms are that it remain free. If you don't like that, you'll >have to write your own code instead of using mine. In which case, you will hurt the small developers -- who can't afford to reimplement everything -- and not the large ones (like Microsoft) who can. You will actually support Microsoft's monopoly position and damage its potential competitors. Not something I imagine you would want to do. >> Arguments that "what comes of proprietary software" is bad are generally >> specious and/or appeal solely to one egregious example: Microsoft. > >I'm not making an argument against proprietary software. I do not >care to have such an argument. I have my reasons for not wanting to >be a part of the proprietary software world. That is why I use the >GPL. Care to enumerate these mysterious "reasons?" >> In that case, you are intentionally sabotaging the ability of all >> developers to make a living. As such, you are engaged in a process >> that's destructive, rather than constructive. > >No, I'm deciding how the code I write is allowed to be used. The same >way you can decide to hoard your code. No, you're sabotaging them. By releasing code for free to users but "hoarding" it (as you put it) from developers, you are reducing the market value of that code's functionality to zero while requiring developers to spend money reimplementing it. Of course, given the attitudes you've expressed in this thread, I'm sure that's your intent -- to get back at those greedy bastards who are "hurting their neighbors" by not giving all of their work away for free. >> I see: Making an honest living as a developer is OBVIOUSLY evil and wrong. > >You can make an honest living as a developer without hurting your >neighbors. Gee, wondered why my neighbors were dropping like flies. They're being terribly hurt because I'm being justly compensated for my efforts. Guess I'll turn to dealing drugs instead. That won't hurt my neighbors -- just their kids. >I do not believe that certain things are right to do just >because you are paid for them. Making an honest living as a gas >chamber operator is OBVIOUSLY evil and wrong. Fweeet! Godwin's Law. >I would like to see free replacements for these things. But you don't >seem to understand that I am capable of rational behavior. It sure doesn't sound like you are capable of rational THOUGHT. >You see GPL and have a shit-fit. No, However, I strongly advise against its use and suggest that it might even be illegal under the Robinson-Patman Act. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 15: 5: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B131911646 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:04:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA27134; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:04:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222155920.0404e9d0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:04:53 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One concern I've always had about the GPL and the FSF is that they appear to violate the Robinson-Patman Act. They make code free to users, free to developers of GPLed software, and expensive or utterly unattainable to developers of commercial software. Richard Stallman specifically states that an effect of the GPL will be to remove software from the realm of competition. Is this illegal price discrimination? Here's a copy of the relevant language: The Robinson-Patman Act, 15 U.S.C.A. Section 13 Section 13. Discrimination in price, services, or facilities (a) Price; selection of customers. It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, either directly or indirectly, to discriminate in price between different purchasers of commodities of like grade and quality, where either or any of the purchases involved in such discrimination are in commerce, where such commodities are sold for use, consumption, or resale within the United States or any Territory thereof or the District of Columbia or any insular possession or other place under the jurisdiction of the United States, and where the effect of such discrimination may be substantially to lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce, or to injure, destroy, or prevent competition with any person who either grants or knowingly receives the benefit of such discrimination, or with customers of either of them.... Hmmm. Sounds like there could be a case here. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 15:13:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F1AA11380 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:13:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11240; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:13:03 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990222181303.A758@netmonger.net> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:13:03 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: San Jose Mercury News References: <000301be5e61$32179ec0$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> <000301be5e61$32179ec0$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> <19990222144214.B25682@netmonger.net> <4.1.19990222134234.0400ce70@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222134234.0400ce70@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 01:44:26PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 01:44:26PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:42 PM 2/22/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: > > >Does it ever occur to these reporters that Linux's success just might > >have something to do with the fact that Microsoft products simply do > >not work, and Linux does? > > If it were merely that, then FreeBSD would be equally successful -- > more successful, in fact, as it it smore reliable. Timing, PR, and > advocacy (though done largely by fanatics) allowed Linux to gain a > foothold and eclipse the technologically superior BSD derivatives. While timing is certainly a factor in Linux's mindshare vs. BSD, Linux would have a significantly harder time gaining acceptance among corporate types if Microsoft products actually worked. I did not say "merely", I said "something to do with". Linux came along at a time and in such a way that large numbers of people were motivated to work on it and spread it to their friends. This was well before it became "Linux vs. NT", but by the time that issue arrived, Linux had accumulated a huge base of followers and was able to gain the perception of a support mechanism. Even then, in my experience, Microsoft's products are tried first, and Linux (or FreeBSD) is only an option when NT has caused colossal amounts of loss. My experiences may not be typical, but I've certainly had a lot of them when it comes to people trying to use Microsoft products for Internet servers. They have been uniformly negative. -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net "Good tools allow users to do stupid things." -- Clay Shirky To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 15:20:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11F011061 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:20:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11998; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:20:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990222182049.A11427@netmonger.net> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:20:49 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) References: <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990222082525.A1429@ska.bsn> <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net> <4.1.19990222132000.04005810@mail.lariat.org> <19990222160942.A24590@netmonger.net> <4.1.19990222144835.0404ba70@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222144835.0404ba70@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 03:32:42PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, You have obviously been severely traumatized at the hands of the evil GPL proponents. You have gone from irrational to incoherent, at which point I think it best that I call it quits. I wish you a speedy recovery. -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net "Good tools allow users to do stupid things." -- Clay Shirky To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 15:48:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCCE111A1 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:48:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA14163; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:48:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:48:31 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199902222348.PAA14163@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222155920.0404e9d0.kithrup.freebsd.chat@mail.lariat.org> Organization: Kithrup Enterprises, Ltd. Cc: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My god, the twit brett has reached a new low in idiocy. I shall pass this on to someone who will hopefully inform the FSF's lawyers -- brett having arguably slandered teh FSF and RMS. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 16: 8: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 231A310F84 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 16:07:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA14622; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:37:53 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA48860; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:37:51 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990223103751.Z93492@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:37:51 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Gianmarco Giovannelli , gummibear@we.mediaone.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD early days... References: <3.0.6.32.19990221223827.007aeab0@we.mediaone.net> <4.1.19990222094657.00ae5930@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222094657.00ae5930@194.184.65.4>; from Gianmarco Giovannelli on Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 09:57:44AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 February 1999 at 9:57:44 +0100, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > At 22.38 21/02/99 -0800, you wrote: > >> Anyways, I needed some help. Before I start going wild promoting the idea >> and what not, I just needed a bit of help. I have been working on the > > In the book The complete FreeBSD, by Greg Lehey you can find history, Linux > comparison and other BSD short descriptions. A lot of this was lifted from the online handbook. You'd probably be better off looking there. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 17: 1:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E54710FFD for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:01:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4002.ime.net [209.90.195.12]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.3/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id UAA39915; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:01:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990222195914.03df0f10@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:00:40 -0500 To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: San Jose Mercury News In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222134234.0400ce70@mail.lariat.org> References: <19990222144214.B25682@netmonger.net> <000301be5e61$32179ec0$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> <000301be5e61$32179ec0$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:44 PM 2/22/99 , Brett Glass wrote: >At 02:42 PM 2/22/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: > >>Does it ever occur to these reporters that Linux's success just might >>have something to do with the fact that Microsoft products simply do >>not work, and Linux does? > >If it were merely that, then FreeBSD would be equally successful -- >more successful, in fact, as it it smore reliable. Timing, PR, and >advocacy (though done largely by fanatics) allowed Linux to gain a >foothold and eclipse the technologically superior BSD derivatives. One of the MAJOR attractive items of Linux is that it can run for months and years without a reboot.. My NT machine needs a good boot rather often, but not as much as my Win95 machine, which can run less than a day on the boot.. Stability is everything.. Noone can access network services if the machine is always being rebooted, and it takes 5-20 minutes to do it at that. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP DSS/1024 Public Key ID: 0x409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 17:18:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BECA111198 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:18:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA15027; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:48:36 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA49028; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:48:29 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990223114829.D93492@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:48:29 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Christopher Masto , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) References: <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990222082525.A1429@ska.bsn> <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net>; from Christopher Masto on Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 02:34:16PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 February 1999 at 14:34:16 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: > Can't we stop all this nonsensical comparison of software licenses to > various "evil" political/economic systems, and just acknowledge that > we have differences of opinion when it comes to the way software > should be licensed? I think you're missing the point in the comparison with political systems. I wasn't claiming they were evil; both communism and anarchy have significant merits, they've just shown that they are failures as social systems. That doesn't mean that they need to fail as systems for writing software. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 17:39:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp.interlog.com (smtp.interlog.com [207.34.202.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC07110EE6 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:39:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from shell1.interlog.com (paulg@shell1.interlog.com [207.34.202.8]) by smtp.interlog.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id UAA13754; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:39:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:41:39 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Griffith To: Christopher Masto Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: San Jose Mercury News In-Reply-To: <19990222181303.A758@netmonger.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Christopher Masto wrote: > Linux came along at a time and in such a way that large numbers of > people were motivated to work on it and spread it to their friends. > This was well before it became "Linux vs. NT", but by the time that > issue arrived, Linux had accumulated a huge base of followers and was > able to gain the perception of a support mechanism. Even then, in my > experience, Microsoft's products are tried first, and Linux (or > FreeBSD) is only an option when NT has caused colossal amounts of > loss. I second this, Microsoft has done such a good marketing job, I have seen people take down a working Novell Server to install Win NT 4.0. Everyone seems to take the sh*t from Microsoft. It's really to bad. I would like to able to have a choice on the desktop, and the server. Paul Griffith To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 18: 1: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45ADD11BA0 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:00:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA28961; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:00:57 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222185908.0400bb00@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:00:55 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-Reply-To: <199902222348.PAA14163@kithrup.com> References: <4.1.19990222155920.0404e9d0.kithrup.freebsd.chat@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:48 PM 2/22/99 -0800, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: >I shall pass this on to someone who will hopefully inform the FSF's lawyers -- >brett having arguably slandered teh FSF and RMS. Good luck. The information from Stallman is a direct quote, so good luck to anyone who tries to sue for slander. And Stallman represents the FSF. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 18: 1: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFAAA11BA0 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:00:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA28958; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:00:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222185258.03ffaba0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:53:25 -0700 To: Drew Baxter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: San Jose Mercury News In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222195914.03df0f10@genesis.ispace.com> References: <4.1.19990222134234.0400ce70@mail.lariat.org> <19990222144214.B25682@netmonger.net> <000301be5e61$32179ec0$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> <000301be5e61$32179ec0$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:00 PM 2/22/99 -0500, Drew Baxter wrote: >One of the MAJOR attractive items of Linux is that it can run for months >and years without a reboot.. So? FreeBSD is even more stable. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 18: 2:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E7B111CB0 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:02:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA28974; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:02:46 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222190133.03ffe500@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:02:44 -0700 To: Christopher Masto , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) In-Reply-To: <19990222182049.A11427@netmonger.net> References: <4.1.19990222144835.0404ba70@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990222082525.A1429@ska.bsn> <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net> <4.1.19990222132000.04005810@mail.lariat.org> <19990222160942.A24590@netmonger.net> <4.1.19990222144835.0404ba70@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Let's hope that those who are damaged by your zeal to harm their livelihoods will recover quickly. I'm quite fine, thank you. --Brett Glass At 06:20 PM 2/22/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: >Brett, > >You have obviously been severely traumatized at the hands of the evil >GPL proponents. You have gone from irrational to incoherent, at which >point I think it best that I call it quits. I wish you a speedy >recovery. >-- >Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications >chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net > > "Good tools allow users to do stupid things." -- Clay Shirky > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 18:31:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0D3410ED5 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:31:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA61965; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:31:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Licia Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:49:42 CST." Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:31:46 -0800 Message-ID: <61961.919737106@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Would anyone care to review a software license I and a friend are working on? > The goal is to present the basic ideas in a berkeley style license in a > simple text file that people can simple include with their work or refer > to by name/url the way they can with the GPL and Artistic licenses. I like the basic idea of encapsulating the sentiments of the berkeley license in a "simple text file", however I don't see one of those here. :-) My definition of a simple text file which conveyed the "basic ideas" of the BSDL would be: The Universal Simple License ---------------------------- The following materials are copyright (C) Joe Blow, 1999 and may be used, modified and redistributed in any form for any purpose provided that the following provisions are strictly adhered to: Do not remove or modify the text of this license agreement or attempt to assert authorship for unmodified portions of the code. The author is giving you the code, grant them at least due credit for it in return. The author assumes no liability whatsoever for this code. You break it, you fix it, and what you see here you use entirely at your own risk. That's 97 words, including "(C) Joe Blow, 1999", text which would obviously get longer if you covered more years or shorter if your name was something like "Prince." A license in 100 words or less is the kind of license I like to see! For a rather more extreme example of this, those of you who keep track of such things may also have noticed the "license" I very deliberately used for the ports collection mechanism itself (in bsd.port.mk): # bsd.port.mk - 940820 Jordan K. Hubbard. # This file is in the public domain. .. the intention being to try and get the other *BSDs at least to adopt it (Linux would be nice, but Berkeley make is a special hurdle for them). That whole process took a little longer than some people might have hoped for, but if there were any impediments to progress that people complained about during the process, the license was never raised as one of them and I rather liked that. Considering how much free software people love to screech in 3 different keys about this kind of thing in any pan-OS effort, you might even consider it "fucking amazing" that nobody complained. Sometimes a simple license really does have its merits. :-) Anyway, going PD might be a bit too far for some, but I think the "USL" I suggested above might find some adherents. I find the burgeoning trend towards "empty legalese which only sounds impressive" in software licenses to be rather disturbing, personally, and I think some of us are aping it only because it "seems like the safe thing to do" when you're out looking for some boilerplate text. Ugh. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 18:35:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CCA910EBD for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:34:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA10863; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:34:28 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd010795; Mon Feb 22 19:34:23 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA13718; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:34:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902230234.TAA13718@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Lawsuit with Novel To: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it (Gianmarco Giovannelli) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 02:34:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: oleg@ogurok.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222191438.009d3f00@194.184.65.4> from "Gianmarco Giovannelli" at Feb 22, 99 07:36:25 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >I heard about some lawsuit between FreeBSD and Novel. What was this about? > >Any info on web? Just personal curiousity. Thank you. > > "In 1992, AT&T's subsidiary USL (UNIX System Labs) filled a lawsuit against > Berkeley Software Development Inc. (BSDI), the manufacteur of the BSD/386 > and (later) BSD/OS operating systems, for alleged distribution of AT&T > source code in violation of license agreements. They subsequently extended > the case to University of California at Berkeley." (The Complete FreeBSD, > Lehey) BSDI = Berekeley Software Design, Inc. Novel = Novell > The final agreement arrive in 1994 between Novel (who had bought the right > from AT&T in the meantime) and BSDI. Novel was attribuited of all rights on > NET/2 distribution, but in exchange bless the new upcoming 4.4BSD to be > free from any duties. Novell bought USL from AT&T. It became the Novell UNIX Systems Group, or "Novell/USG". The USL lawsuit alleged disclosure of USL Trade Secrets through publication of Net/2 by UCB's CSRG (University of California at Berkeley, Computer Science Research Group). UCB filed countersuit, claiming fully 50% of UNIX System V was in violation of the UCB license by way of the license having been removed from UCB sources incorporated into SVR4 (System V release 4). UCB and USL settled, even though the judge all but dismissed the charges made by USL. As part of this, files from several critical subsystems were deemed "tainted", and removed from BSD 4.4 prior to distribution. UCB subsequently removed the code from distribution, and requested that others remove the code as well. Few people complied, since (1) the license is irrevocable, and (2) USL did not press the matter, probably for fear of someone who wouldn't settle would take up the banner. The code is still available from gatekeeper.dec.com, among other FTP archives. > FreeBSD and all other OS based on NET/2 distribution where obliged to be > rewritten using only source code from 4.4BSD (which they are prepared to do > in any case...). > FreBSD 1.1.5.1 was the last based on NET/2 and was released in July 1994. After the UCB/USL settlement, BSDI was sent a letter permitting its distribution of the binaries for the Net/2 derived OS, but denying permission to continue distribution of the sources. This was the beginning of binary-only BSDI distributions. The principles associated with 386BSD, FreeBSD, and NetBSD were not initially given the same deal as BSDI. Instead, they were individually served with "Cease And Desist" orders. Through several meetings I had over the period of a week with Mike DeFazio, then head of Novell/USG under Bob Frakenburg, in which, among other facts, I pointed out that the code was archived off shore in countries without intellectual property treaties with the US, and thus cessation could not be ordered by a US Court, Novell/USG releneted, and allowed the non-BSDI Net/2 based code to continue distribution until such time as the BSD 4.4-Lite code could be substituted. > They worked hard to release the new version, even because the 4.4BSD was > not fully complete at this time. FreeBSD version 2.0 was the first relase > based on the 4.4BSD and was released in December 1994. It is my opinion that it was Novell/USG's opinion at the time that the non-BSDI Net/2 based projects would be unable to recreate the supposedly "tainted" files, and thus not threaten the Novell/USG UNIX royalty monopoly. It is my opinion that the files removed were removed not for their content, but for their criticality. The CSRG quickly integrated pieces to replace the components, including a hackish integration of John Heidemann's vnode stacking architecture, from the UCLA (University of California at Los Angeles) FICUS project. > Then in January I arrived and bought my first CD, but I was not able to > install it. :-) > > Is it correct ? Any actors can confirm ? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 18:37:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7ED10EBD for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:37:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA29304; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:37:02 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222193349.03fc1ba0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:36:58 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Licia From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <61961.919737106@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can you write a <100-word license that does all of these things and is also incompatible with the GPL? After recent exchanges in several forums, it is my opinion that preventing the use of one's code in GPLed products is important. --Brett Glass At 06:31 PM 2/22/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I like the basic idea of encapsulating the sentiments of the berkeley >license in a "simple text file", however I don't see one of those >here. :-) > >My definition of a simple text file which conveyed the "basic ideas" >of the BSDL would be: > >The Universal Simple License >---------------------------- >The following materials are copyright (C) Joe Blow, 1999 and may be >used, modified and redistributed in any form for any purpose provided >that the following provisions are strictly adhered to: > > Do not remove or modify the text of this license agreement > or attempt to assert authorship for unmodified portions of > the code. The author is giving you the code, grant them at > least due credit for it in return. > > The author assumes no liability whatsoever for this code. You > break it, you fix it, and what you see here you use entirely at > your own risk. > >That's 97 words, including "(C) Joe Blow, 1999", text which would >obviously get longer if you covered more years or shorter if your name >was something like "Prince." A license in 100 words or less is the >kind of license I like to see! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 18:40:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 211D8113EB for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:40:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id NAA16000; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:10:37 +1030 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA21699; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:10:34 +1030 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:10:32 +1030 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Jack Velte Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Little Linux Is Picking Up Some Big Buddies In-Reply-To: <000301be5e82$f69a0140$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Jack Velte wrote: > Subject: Little Linux Is Picking Up Some Big Buddies Just a question - why are you forwarding all of these to -chat? Most of them dont have any real information content over and above the usual reporting "fluff" and that which has already been reported here. The only relevance to FreeBSD is indirect. Kris ----- (ASP) Microsoft Corporation (MSFT) announced today that the release of its productivity suite, Office 2000, will be delayed until the first quarter of 1901. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 18:46:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1CB510EBD for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:46:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15170; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:46:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd015044; Mon Feb 22 19:46:25 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA14178; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:46:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902230246.TAA14178@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) To: chris@netmonger.net (Christopher Masto) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 02:46:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net> from "Christopher Masto" at Feb 22, 99 02:34:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The purpose of the GPL is to allow people to license their code under > the GPL. Period. With respect, the GPL is an instrumentality of the GNU Manifesto. http://www.gnu.org/gnu/manifesto.html The purpose of the GPL is to advance the goals of the GNU Manifesto. If you don't support the goals of the GNU Manifesto, then don't use the GPL. If you support the goals of the GNU Manifesto, then I'd argue that the GPL is a poor instrument by which the instrumentality that the GNU Manifesto intends can be realized. A better instrument would be the Cygnus ECOS Public License, since it takes specific notice of patent law and tit-for-tat patent cross-licensing. http://www.cygnus.com/ecos/license.html Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 18:52:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 174771109F for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 18:52:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA03112; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:52:04 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990222215203.A18876@netmonger.net> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:52:03 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <61961.919737106@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990222193349.03fc1ba0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222193349.03fc1ba0@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 07:36:58PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I can't resist. On Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 07:36:58PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Can you write a <100-word license that does all of these things and > is also incompatible with the GPL? After recent exchanges in several > forums, it is my opinion that preventing the use of one's code in > GPLed products is important. One concern I would have about such a license is that it would appear to violate the Robinson-Patman Act. It would make code free to users, free to developers of non-GPLed software, and expensive or utterly unattainable to developers of GPLed software. Brett Glass specifically states that an effect of his proposed modification would be to prevent code being used in competing GPLed products. -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net "Good tools allow users to do stupid things." -- Clay Shirky To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19: 2:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3389E110B4 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:02:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA11181; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:02:15 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd011000; Mon Feb 22 20:02:00 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA14813; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:01:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902230301.UAA14813@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Compaq and the Robinson-Patman Act To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 03:01:53 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222155920.0404e9d0@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 22, 99 04:04:53 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The Robinson-Patman Act, 15 U.S.C.A. Section 13 > > Section 13. Discrimination in price, services, or facilities > > (a) Price; selection of customers. It shall be unlawful for any person > engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, either directly or > indirectly, to discriminate in price between > different purchasers of commodities of like grade and quality, where either > or any of the purchases involved in such discrimination are in commerce, > where such commodities are sold for > use, consumption, or resale within the United States or any Territory > thereof or the District of Columbia or any insular possession or other > place under the jurisdiction of the United > States, and where the effect of such discrimination may be substantially to > lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce, or > to injure, destroy, or prevent > competition with any person who either grants or knowingly receives the > benefit of such discrimination, or with customers of either of them.... Actually, this sounds like it would apply to Compaq not selling you a laptop without you having to buy Windows... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19: 2:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC0EC11377 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:02:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA15531; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:32:28 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA49228; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:32:27 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990223133226.L93492@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:32:26 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Terry Lambert , Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: oleg@ogurok.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lawsuit with Novel References: <4.1.19990222191438.009d3f00@194.184.65.4> <199902230234.TAA13718@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199902230234.TAA13718@usr08.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 02:34:15AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23 February 1999 at 2:34:15 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >>> I heard about some lawsuit between FreeBSD and Novel. What was this about? >>> Any info on web? Just personal curiousity. Thank you. >> >> "In 1992, AT&T's subsidiary USL (UNIX System Labs) filled a lawsuit against >> Berkeley Software Development Inc. (BSDI), the manufacteur of the BSD/386 >> and (later) BSD/OS operating systems, for alleged distribution of AT&T >> source code in violation of license agreements. They subsequently extended >> the case to University of California at Berkeley." (The Complete FreeBSD, >> Lehey) > > BSDI = Berekeley Software Design, Inc. Oops. Thanks for picking up this one. > Novel = Novell This one isn't mine. > As part of this, files from several critical subsystems were deemed > "tainted", and removed from BSD 4.4 prior to distribution. > > UCB subsequently removed the code from distribution, and requested > that others remove the code as well. Few people complied, since (1) > the license is irrevocable, and (2) USL did not press the matter, > probably for fear of someone who wouldn't settle would take up the > banner. The code is still available from gatekeeper.dec.com, among > other FTP archives. Dr. Dobbs is also sitting on what I suspect is quite a pile of "386BSD 1.0" CD-ROMs, which are Net/2 based. They came out in late 1994. > The principles associated with 386BSD, FreeBSD, and NetBSD were not > initially given the same deal as BSDI. Instead, they were > individually served with "Cease And Desist" orders. Are you sure Bill Jolitz got one? Dr. Dobbs were still actively marketing their CD in late 1995. >> They worked hard to release the new version, even because the 4.4BSD was >> not fully complete at this time. FreeBSD version 2.0 was the first relase >> based on the 4.4BSD and was released in December 1994. > > It is my opinion that it was Novell/USG's opinion at the time that the > non-BSDI Net/2 based projects would be unable to recreate the supposedly > "tainted" files, and thus not threaten the Novell/USG UNIX royalty > monopoly. It is my opinion that the files removed were removed not for > their content, but for their criticality. I don't understand what you're trying to say here. They had the files in question, just as BSDI did. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19: 5:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ABC911514 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:04:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA29636; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:04:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222200400.03fc1ce0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:04:38 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Compaq and the Robinson-Patman Act Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902230301.UAA14813@usr08.primenet.com> References: <4.1.19990222155920.0404e9d0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:01 AM 2/23/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> The Robinson-Patman Act, 15 U.S.C.A. Section 13 >> >> Section 13. Discrimination in price, services, or facilities >> >> (a) Price; selection of customers. It shall be unlawful for any person >> engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, either directly or >> indirectly, to discriminate in price between >> different purchasers of commodities of like grade and quality, where either >> or any of the purchases involved in such discrimination are in commerce, >> where such commodities are sold for >> use, consumption, or resale within the United States or any Territory >> thereof or the District of Columbia or any insular possession or other >> place under the jurisdiction of the United >> States, and where the effect of such discrimination may be substantially to >> lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce, or >> to injure, destroy, or prevent >> competition with any person who either grants or knowingly receives the >> benefit of such discrimination, or with customers of either of them.... > >Actually, this sounds like it would apply to Compaq not selling you >a laptop without you having to buy Windows... I don't know about that, but it would *certainly* apply to Gateway not getting as good a price as Compaq for Windows. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:12:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB5310F91 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:12:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA02597; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:03:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpdQc2594; Tue Feb 23 03:03:20 1999 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:03:17 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD early days... (fwd) In-Reply-To: <19990223130123.F93492@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > [moved to -chat] > > On Monday, 22 February 1999 at 14:42:27 -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > > > > I was asked to write a bit on my memories.. > > so having done it, I figured it needed to be shared out and maybe those > > there might comment. (also tell me how to spell cgd's name) > > > > In 1990 I started working for TFS, a branch of TRW, a large american > > company with fingers in many industries. The section I was working for was > > doing back-end processing systems for banks and similar financial > > institutions. As part of these systems they needed small unix-based > > workstations with specialised hardware. We chose to use MACH 2.5 which was > > based upon BSD4.3 for much of it's userland and kernel functions. > > In 1991 > > If we're talking about 386BSD, it was 1992. Version 0.0 was released > in March 1992, version 0.1 was released on 14 July 1992, only 6 weeks > before NetBSD 0.9. I'm attaching a very few of the messages I saved, > mainly from USENET, at the time. Actually I think you are write and wrong.. I guess it was mid 1992 for 386BSD, but it's got to be one YEAR and 6 weeks till NetBSD I think you'll find.. there wouldn't have been time for us to develope the patchkit, LKMs the SCSI system, boot/install floppies etc. all in 6 weeks. NetBSD inheritted all this from 386BSD when they diverged. I'm sure that charles Hnnum an dothers were active on ref for a long time.. certainly not 6 weeks. At least it must have been over 6 months.. julian > > > I attended a course at UC Berkeley on BSD4.4 Kernel internals (taught by > > Kirk McKusick). At that course, Chris Demitriou (spelling?) > > Demetriou. (thanks :-) > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:17:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pobox.com (lakertya-1-107.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.118.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D365F112F7 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:16:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Received: from pobox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E088B46688; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:16:02 -0600 (CST) To: Brett Glass Cc: Christopher Masto , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Feb 1999 15:32:42 MST." <4.1.19990222144835.0404ba70@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:16:02 -0600 From: Jon Hamilton Message-Id: <19990223031602.E088B46688@pobox.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <4.1.19990222144835.0404ba70@mail.lariat.org>, Brett Glass wrote: } At 04:09 PM 2/22/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: } } >You claim that you are making "an honest living". I claim that you } >are hurting your neighbors. } } Gee, I guess I'm also "hurting" my neighbors by not giving them my } car, my house, and the contents of my bank account. You'll convince more people to see things your way if you dial back the antagonism several dozen notches and make your points in a calm manner without the needless rhetoric. There is some substance behind your position, but you're unlikely to sway anyone by insulting them and metaphorically kicking them in the head. [ ... ] } >I would like to see free replacements for these things. But you don't } >seem to understand that I am capable of rational behavior. } } It sure doesn't sound like you are capable of rational THOUGHT. Then why are you arguing with him? -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:19:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BC3A113F1 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:19:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA29872; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:19:24 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222200825.03ffb500@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:19:21 -0700 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license In-Reply-To: <19990222215203.A18876@netmonger.net> References: <4.1.19990222193349.03fc1ba0@mail.lariat.org> <61961.919737106@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990222193349.03fc1ba0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:52 PM 2/22/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: >One concern I would have about such a license is that it would appear >to violate the Robinson-Patman Act. It would make code free to users, >free to developers of non-GPLed software, and expensive or utterly >unattainable to developers of GPLed software. Brett Glass >specifically states that an effect of his proposed modification would >be to prevent code being used in competing GPLed products. If the GPL is shown to be illegal (which I hope it will be), then such a clause would be invalidated in the new license, too. It would then revert to being the standard BSD license, which is (I believe) what would ideally be used in the first place. In short, the defense against the GPL works unless the GPL itself is ruled invalid, in which case it's not necessary anyway. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:19:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6C1B10FC1 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:19:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA29876; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:19:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222201531.03fc77d0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:18:31 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902230246.TAA14178@usr08.primenet.com> References: <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:46 AM 2/23/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >If you support the goals of the GNU Manifesto, then I'd argue that >the GPL is a poor instrument by which the instrumentality that the >GNU Manifesto intends can be realized. > >A better instrument would be the Cygnus ECOS Public License, since >it takes specific notice of patent law and tit-for-tat patent >cross-licensing. > > http://www.cygnus.com/ecos/license.html > True, but it also forces disclosure of source code. This is a VERY serious issue in an embedded product, since the source code is key to differentiation in this market. The licensing essentially gives anyone the ability to copy the hard work you put into your product, gratis. Rather a Faustian bargain, I'd say. It's a bad business proposition. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:20: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 146D3115E2 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:20:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA19746; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:19:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd019587; Mon Feb 22 20:19:30 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA15386; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:19:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902230319.UAA15386@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Lawsuit with Novel To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 03:19:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, gmarco@scotty.masternet.it, oleg@ogurok.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990223133226.L93492@lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 23, 99 01:32:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The principles associated with 386BSD, FreeBSD, and NetBSD were not > > initially given the same deal as BSDI. Instead, they were > > individually served with "Cease And Desist" orders. > > Are you sure Bill Jolitz got one? Dr. Dobbs were still actively > marketing their CD in late 1995. I remember talking with Lynne on the phone about it, when Bill was off consulting at Sun. > >> They worked hard to release the new version, even because the 4.4BSD was > >> not fully complete at this time. FreeBSD version 2.0 was the first relase > >> based on the 4.4BSD and was released in December 1994. > > > > It is my opinion that it was Novell/USG's opinion at the time that the > > non-BSDI Net/2 based projects would be unable to recreate the supposedly > > "tainted" files, and thus not threaten the Novell/USG UNIX royalty > > monopoly. It is my opinion that the files removed were removed not for > > their content, but for their criticality. > > I don't understand what you're trying to say here. They had the files > in question, just as BSDI did. Right. What I'm saying is that it is my opinion that the suit was filed to stop competition, not because there was a true belief that Trade Secrets were being infringed. My non-professional, personal opinion is that once a Trade Secret is disclosed, it's disclosed, and that you can only collect damages based on the act of disclosure doing you irreperable harm. In other words, people to whom the secret is disclosed are free to use it, regardless of whether or not the disclosure was illegal. Consider the secret of how Russia is able to smelt Zirconium about 10 times more efficiently than the US. It is a trade secret, and is not protected by patent. If disclosed, then anyone else who wants to smelt zirconium could use the method. Actually, there is a long line of kiln/furnace/smelting analogies, with large historical precedent. When you try to protect something with Trade Secret status instead of a Patent (which requires disclosure to obtain protection), then the penalties are based solely on the act of disclosure. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:25:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AD3610FC2 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:24:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA15672; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:54:04 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA49261; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:54:02 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990223135401.N93492@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:54:01 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Julian Elischer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD early days... (fwd) References: <19990223130123.F93492@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Julian Elischer on Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 07:03:17PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 22 February 1999 at 19:03:17 -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> [moved to -chat] >> >> On Monday, 22 February 1999 at 14:42:27 -0800, Julian Elischer wrote: >>> >>> I was asked to write a bit on my memories.. >>> so having done it, I figured it needed to be shared out and maybe those >>> there might comment. (also tell me how to spell cgd's name) >>> >>> In 1990 I started working for TFS, a branch of TRW, a large american >>> company with fingers in many industries. The section I was working for was >>> doing back-end processing systems for banks and similar financial >>> institutions. As part of these systems they needed small unix-based >>> workstations with specialised hardware. We chose to use MACH 2.5 which was >>> based upon BSD4.3 for much of it's userland and kernel functions. >>> In 1991 >> >> If we're talking about 386BSD, it was 1992. Version 0.0 was released >> in March 1992, version 0.1 was released on 14 July 1992, only 6 weeks >> before NetBSD 0.9. I'm attaching a very few of the messages I saved, >> mainly from USENET, at the time. > > Actually I think you are write and wrong.. I guess it was mid 1992 for > 386BSD, but it's got to be one YEAR and 6 weeks till NetBSD I think you'll > find.. Oops, yes. How did I miss that? Of course, it was all in the attachments. > there wouldn't have been time for us to develope the patchkit, LKMs > the SCSI system, boot/install floppies etc. all in 6 weeks. NetBSD > inheritted all this from 386BSD when they diverged. I'm sure that > charles Hnnum an dothers were active on ref for a long > time.. certainly not 6 weeks. At least it must have been over 6 > months.. This was 0.9. I don't know when they did the first release. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:25:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066A311013 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:24:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA01917; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:24:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd001722; Mon Feb 22 20:24:09 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA15544; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:23:49 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902230323.UAA15544@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 03:23:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222201531.03fc77d0@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 22, 99 08:18:31 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >If you support the goals of the GNU Manifesto, then I'd argue that > >the GPL is a poor instrument by which the instrumentality that the > >GNU Manifesto intends can be realized. > > > >A better instrument would be the Cygnus ECOS Public License, since > >it takes specific notice of patent law and tit-for-tat patent > >cross-licensing. > > > > http://www.cygnus.com/ecos/license.html > > > > True, but it also forces disclosure of source code. This is a VERY > serious issue in an embedded product, since the source code is key > to differentiation in this market. The licensing essentially gives > anyone the ability to copy the hard work you put into your product, > gratis. I think you have misread the license: 3.7. Larger Works. You may create a Larger Work by combining Covered Code with other code not governed by the terms of this License and distribute the Larger Work as a single product. In such a case, You must make sure the requirements of this License are fulfilled for the Covered Code. > Rather a Faustian bargain, I'd say. It's a bad business proposition. "If you support the goals of the GNU Manifesto..." Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:26:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F3F110A8 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:26:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA29981; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:26:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222201937.00977b90@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:25:50 -0700 To: Jon Hamilton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990223031602.E088B46688@pobox.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:16 PM 2/22/99 -0600, Jon Hamilton wrote: >} Gee, I guess I'm also "hurting" my neighbors by not giving them my >} car, my house, and the contents of my bank account. > >You'll convince more people to see things your way if you dial back the >antagonism several dozen notches and make your points in a calm manner >without the needless rhetoric. There is some substance behind your >position, but you're unlikely to sway anyone by insulting them and >metaphorically kicking them in the head. Er, "Boot to the head?" ;-) Seriously, though, I know I verge on the sarcastic side here. I'm doing so to point out the silliness of the argument being presented. Alas, I have found that very few adherents of the GPL are willing to listen to critiques of it (this one in particular seems to be at the extreme end of the spectrum, having expressed the belief -- as Stallman does -- that the concept of intellectual property is evil). I'm not very hopeful that this person will listen -- but I figure my best chance is to show him just how extreme and untenable a stance he's taking. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:30:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C1010F06 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:30:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA16676; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:30:11 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd016642; Mon Feb 22 20:29:57 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA15850; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:29:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902230329.UAA15850@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 03:29:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: licia@o-o.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <61961.919737106@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 22, 99 06:31:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > My definition of a simple text file which conveyed the "basic ideas" > of the BSDL would be: > > The Universal Simple License > ---------------------------- > The following materials are copyright (C) Joe Blow, 1999 and may be > used, modified and redistributed in any form for any purpose provided > that the following provisions are strictly adhered to: > > Do not remove or modify the text of this license agreement > or attempt to assert authorship for unmodified portions of > the code. The author is giving you the code, grant them at > least due credit for it in return. > > The author assumes no liability whatsoever for this code. You > break it, you fix it, and what you see here you use entirely at > your own risk. If this is just a text file (a "preamble" for the UCB License), then fine. If this is intended as a license itself, then I have a real problem with the "hold harmless" clause, since it could be assuming the code is working in the first place. The author assumes no liability whatsoever for this code. If you use this code, it is entirely at your own risk. In any case, any new license should be run past a real lawyer, one with a firm footing in contract law. You could still restrict them to English, though. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:33:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2134311140 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:33:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA17976; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:33:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd017833; Mon Feb 22 20:33:09 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA15907; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:32:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902230332.UAA15907@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 03:32:57 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222200825.03ffb500@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 22, 99 08:19:21 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If the GPL is shown to be illegal (which I hope it will be), then such > a clause would be invalidated in the new license, too. It would then > revert to being the standard BSD license, which is (I believe) what > would ideally be used in the first place. The standard UCB license does not contain a severability clause, so a failure of one term fails back to "no license to use". GPL does the same thing. Also, neither license specifically acknowledges DFARS. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:35: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1FA1112E for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:35:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA62291; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:34:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Licia , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:36:58 MST." <4.1.19990222193349.03fc1ba0@mail.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:34:47 -0800 Message-ID: <62287.919740887@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Can you write a <100-word license that does all of these things and > is also incompatible with the GPL? After recent exchanges in several Bleah, I thought I'd already made it clear that such is not my aim. I'm not looking for a poison pill, I'm looking for a simple license that anyone can use. The GPL as a collection of bits describing a licensing methodology is essentially irrelevant, when you actually stop to think about it, since it's only when people USE the GPL that the issues described therein actually become pertinent. If you want to have people stop using the GPL then it will be because you have a BETTER license that is more ATTRACTIVE than the GPL, not because you set out poisoned traps to eliminate any GPL people who might wander in your direction. To put it another way, it is precisely the GPL's higher degree of attractiveness when compared to other commercial shrink-wrap licenses that leads people to apply it to their code. Most young and idealistic programmers just starting out in the free software biz cast around for a license to use and generally pick the GPL simply because it happens to be rather prominently stuck onto EMACS or GCC or some other piece of software they're familiar with. They don't read it all that carefully and I was one of those young and idealistic programmers MYSELF just 20 years ago, slapping the GPL on things because it seemed righteous and in strong opposition to the forces of proprietary evil. Later in life, I learned to see more subtle forms of coercion for what they were and gravitated towards the public domain, which seemed the most ethical of all software licenses. Unfortunately, PD doesn't disclaim liability or handle a number of other things which are reasonably important and so I moved on in turn to the BSD / X Consortium style licenses, both of which have been very successful *just as they are* but are unfortunately also not as well known. The problem of the BSD license vs the GPL is much the same as the problem of FreeBSD vs Linux. In many arguable ways it's a superior way to go, but it's also poorly "marketed" and that's the greatest area of weakness to be addressed, not the fundamental technology or the wording of the licenses. They are just fine the way they are and comprise our greatest asset in winning people over, not through force but through simply being BETTER. The minute you try and "prevent" anything, you've lost the moral high ground and you're right down there with RMS, trying to use the license agreement as a mechanism for advancing a specific, limited agenda rather than a much larger, omnidirectional one. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:44:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73A410EE6 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:44:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA62381; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:44:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: licia@o-o.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Feb 1999 03:29:56 GMT." <199902230329.UAA15850@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:44:08 -0800 Message-ID: <62377.919741448@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In any case, any new license should be run past a real lawyer, one > with a firm footing in contract law. You could still restrict them > to English, though. 8-). I tried that with mine. He just looked at me in silence for 10 minutes and then wrote me a bill. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:48:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pobox.com (lakertya-1-107.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.118.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E75B1102E for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:48:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Received: from pobox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1E4745C1A; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:48:12 -0600 (CST) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:25:50 MST." <4.1.19990222201937.00977b90@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:48:12 -0600 From: Jon Hamilton Message-Id: <19990223034812.F1E4745C1A@pobox.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <4.1.19990222201937.00977b90@mail.lariat.org>, Brett Glass wrote: } At 09:16 PM 2/22/99 -0600, Jon Hamilton wrote: } } >} Gee, I guess I'm also "hurting" my neighbors by not giving them my } >} car, my house, and the contents of my bank account. } > } >You'll convince more people to see things your way if you dial back the } >antagonism several dozen notches and make your points in a calm manner } >without the needless rhetoric. There is some substance behind your } >position, but you're unlikely to sway anyone by insulting them and } >metaphorically kicking them in the head. } } Er, "Boot to the head?" ;-) } } Seriously, though, I know I verge on the sarcastic side here. I'm I suggest to you that referring to your delivery as "verg[ing] on the sarcastic side" is a good submission for understatement of the month. Several people on the list have indicated that they feel your approach is outright overbearing and unproductive (perhaps even counter productive), and I agree. } doing so to point out the silliness of the argument being presented. A better approach might be to calmly point out why you feel the argument is silly, rather than engaging in shill hysterics. People generally respond much better to rational arguments than sarcasm, hysteria, or insults. } Alas, I have found that very few adherents of the GPL are willing to listen } to critiques of it (this one in particular seems to be at the extreme end Given the style of your writing on the lists, I'd frankly be surprised if more than a small percentage of your audience took anything you said particularly seriously. The only thing you're going to accomplish by going about it the way you have is to alienate not only those who disagree with you, but many of those who agree with you as well. Shrinking your audience doesn't serve to make your point. } of the spectrum, having expressed the belief -- as Stallman does -- } that the concept of intellectual property is evil). I'm not } very hopeful that this person will listen -- but I figure my best chance } is to show him just how extreme and untenable a stance he's taking. You can do that without berating him with vitriolic ranting. Yes, there _are_ people who won't be swayed no matter which argument you put forth, but you'd do better to argue calmly and at least convince them that yours is a worthy position with which they disagree than by insulting them and shouting at them. Are you really trying to change peoples' minds, or are you just shouting because it makes you feel good? If the former, I don't think your methods suit your purpose particularly well. -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:58:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A80C11001 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:58:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA00442; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:58:04 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222202747.00978280@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:55:44 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902230323.UAA15544@usr08.primenet.com> References: <4.1.19990222201531.03fc77d0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:23 AM 2/23/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >I think you have misread the license: > >3.7. Larger Works. > You may create a Larger Work by combining Covered Code with > other code not governed by the terms of this License and > distribute the Larger Work as a single product. In such a > case, You must make sure the requirements of this License > are fulfilled for the Covered Code. What I saw was: | 1.9. "Modifications" means any addition to or deletion from the substance | or structure of either the Original Code or any previous Modifications. When | Covered Code is released as a series of files, a Modification is: | | A.Any addition to or deletion from the contents of a file containing | Original Code or previous Modifications. | | B.Any new file that contains any part of the Original Code or previous | Modifications. And then.... | 3.2. Availability of Source Code. Any Modification which You create or to which You contribute must be made | available in Source Code form under the terms of this License This is a little snaky. If the definition of "file" includes the binary file from which you burn your ROMS, you're toast. Ditto if device drivers that are statically linked (and eCos doesn't seem to have dynamic device driver loading) must have source code published. So, I'm not sure how safe one is. It might turn out to be more benign than the GPL, but I'd ask a lawyer before assuming I wouldn't get bit. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 19:58:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C6F311093 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:58:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA00445; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:58:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222205711.00974cd0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:58:00 -0700 To: Jon Hamilton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990223034812.F1E4745C1A@pobox.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:48 PM 2/22/99 -0600, Jon Hamilton wrote: >Are you really trying to change peoples' minds, or are you just shouting >because it makes you feel good? I don't really see myself as doing either. I'm engaging in what I perceive as genteel, if pointed, sarcasm. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 20: 8:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pobox.com (lakertya-1-107.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.118.107]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDF8110E64 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:07:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Received: from pobox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D87A45C1A; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:07:40 -0600 (CST) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:58:00 MST." <4.1.19990222205711.00974cd0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:07:40 -0600 From: Jon Hamilton Message-Id: <19990223040740.5D87A45C1A@pobox.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <4.1.19990222205711.00974cd0@mail.lariat.org>, Brett Glass wrote: } At 09:48 PM 2/22/99 -0600, Jon Hamilton wrote: } } >Are you really trying to change peoples' minds, or are you just shouting } >because it makes you feel good? } } I don't really see myself as doing either. I'm engaging in what I perceive } as genteel, if pointed, sarcasm. To what end? "Just because"? -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 20:20:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D3481158D for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:20:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA00690; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:20:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222210259.0097a6c0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:04:02 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902230332.UAA15907@usr08.primenet.com> References: <4.1.19990222200825.03ffb500@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:32 AM 2/23/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >The standard UCB license does not contain a severability clause, >so a failure of one term fails back to "no license to use". GPL >does the same thing. So, it might be desirable to make the anti-GPL clause severable. Couldn't this be done with one sentence in that clause? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 20:20:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3BE1157A for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:20:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA00693; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:20:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222210441.00b6d680@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:19:04 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license Cc: Licia , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <62287.919740887@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:34 PM 2/22/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I'm not looking for a poison pill, I'm looking for a simple license >that anyone can use. ... >If you want >to have people stop using the GPL then it will be because you have a >BETTER license that is more ATTRACTIVE than the GPL, not because you >set out poisoned traps to eliminate any GPL people who might wander in >your direction. The point, in this case, would be to prevent code that was released under the new license from being released under the GPL. For example, if I wrote a FreeBSD device driver, I wouldn't want to see it ported to Linux and GPLed. I do not want to contribute to the base of GPLed code because I believe that the GPL is destructive. >To put it another way, it is precisely the GPL's higher degree of >attractiveness when compared to other commercial shrink-wrap licenses >that leads people to apply it to their code. That may be. They may also do it because, like most of the press, they believe that it is "the" open source software license or that it is responsible for the success of Linux. Or because they know of no other options. Or, they start with some GPLed code and so are forced to use the GPL. >Most young and >idealistic programmers just starting out in the free software biz cast >around for a license to use and generally pick the GPL simply because >it happens to be rather prominently stuck onto EMACS or GCC or some >other piece of software they're familiar with. They don't read it all >that carefully and I was one of those young and idealistic programmers >MYSELF just 20 years ago, slapping the GPL on things because it seemed >righteous and in strong opposition to the forces of proprietary evil. This case should be covered too, of course. It's not productive to do something UNattractive. >Later in life, I learned to see more subtle forms of coercion for what >they were and gravitated towards the public domain, which seemed the >most ethical of all software licenses. Unfortunately, PD doesn't >disclaim liability or handle a number of other things which are >reasonably important and so I moved on in turn to the BSD / X >Consortium style licenses, both of which have been very successful >*just as they are* but are unfortunately also not as well known. >The problem of the BSD license vs the GPL is much the same as the >problem of FreeBSD vs Linux. In many arguable ways it's a superior >way to go, but it's also poorly "marketed" and that's the greatest >area of weakness to be addressed, not the fundamental technology or >the wording of the licenses. They are just fine the way they are and >comprise our greatest asset in winning people over, not through force >but through simply being BETTER. Can we do both? I do not see the two approaches as mutually exclusive. I'd like to see a license that is attractive AND defeats the GPL's attempts to limit commercial use. That way, I'd feel comfortable releasing code under it. >The minute you try and "prevent" anything, you've lost the moral high >ground and you're right down there with RMS, trying to use the license >agreement as a mechanism for advancing a specific, limited agenda >rather than a much larger, omnidirectional one. Well, what if, 5 minutes after you release your code, someone copies it and turns it toward RMS's specific, limited agenda? I would not feal comfortable with that. I'd like to see a license that not only has no limited agenda but PRECLUDES one. In other words, an "anti-limitation" rather than a limitation. Am I making sense here? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 20:21:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C59F8116ED for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:21:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA00711; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:21:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222212036.00976830@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:21:48 -0700 To: Jon Hamilton From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990223040740.5D87A45C1A@pobox.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:07 PM 2/22/99 -0600, Jon Hamilton wrote: >} I don't really see myself as doing either. I'm engaging in what I perceive >} as genteel, if pointed, sarcasm. > >To what end? "Just because"? Partially because I enjoy discussions. Partially because I'm writing a paper on the subject and such discussions help to hone the arguments used therein. And partially because others are listening, and they might either enjoy the repartee or be swayed by the arguments. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 20:48:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kithrup.com (kithrup.com [205.179.156.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5038A10E5C for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:48:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef@kithrup.com) Received: (from sef@localhost) by kithrup.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA05278 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:48:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sef) Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:48:20 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan Message-Id: <199902230448.UAA05278@kithrup.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: I'm outta here Reply-To: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For the past six weeks, this list has consisted of almost nothing but the twit brett's whines about linux and the GPL. Here's a clue for all the needful: anytime you need to build yourself up by attacking some other person, entity, or project, you're along the path of failure. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 21: 0:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D2FA10EBD for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:00:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA01110; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:00:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222215304.00b51d70@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:00:27 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: I'm outta here Cc: In-Reply-To: <199902230448.UAA05278@kithrup.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:48 PM 2/22/99 -0800, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: >For the past six weeks, this list has consisted of almost nothing but >the twit brett's whines about linux and the GPL. > >Here's a clue for all the needful: anytime you need to build yourself >up by attacking some other person, entity, or project, you're along the >path of failure. In your message above, you attack both me (by calling me a "twit") and my messages (by calling them "whines"). I think that these attacks are unwarranted. Nonetheless, I sincerely hope that you are able to avoid the failure you predict. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 21: 8:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D73F10EDE for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA62891; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:08:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Licia , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:19:04 MST." <4.1.19990222210441.00b6d680@mail.lariat.org> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:08:25 -0800 Message-ID: <62887.919746505@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, what if, 5 minutes after you release your code, someone > copies it and turns it toward RMS's specific, limited agenda? I would It's not important since to "win" that battle, I lose the war. To put it another way, I'm just not interested in trading strategic defeat for flashy tactical victories. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 21:15:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D76911092 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:15:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA01285; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:15:33 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990222221114.00b5e190@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:15:25 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license Cc: Licia , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <62887.919746505@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:08 PM 2/22/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >It's not important since to "win" that battle, I lose the war. Do you really? I don't see any reason why it is not possible to win both. It'd be easy to have a license that says something like the following: "You may incorporate this code into your own work without publishing source. However, if you do publish the source to this or a derivative work, you must do so under this license." That's only one sentence. Of course, I'm sure the language could be improved, since I just dashed it off.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 23:19:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BD85D119F1 for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:19:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 3401 invoked from network); 23 Feb 1999 07:19:42 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 23 Feb 1999 07:19:42 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id CAA02615 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 02:19:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902230719.CAA02615@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: I'm outta here In-Reply-To: <199902230448.UAA05278@kithrup.com> from Sean Eric Fagan at "Feb 22, 99 08:48:20 pm" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 02:19:41 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sean Eric Fagan said: > For the past six weeks, this list has consisted of almost nothing but > the twit brett's whines about linux and the GPL. > > Here's a clue for all the needful: anytime you need to build yourself > up by attacking some other person, entity, or project, you're along the > path of failure. > I truely agree. However, GPL has done so, by demonizing the notion of owning your creations, especially if derived from other GPLed works. (Why is proprietary bad? It is a choice... Proprietary works create an excellent opportunity of making a fair profit, which can be used to pay bills, feed kids, help poor people, etc.) It seems that the GPL demonizes ownership of ideas, expensively created (esp when derived from GPLed works :-))... However, it is not the *purpose* of all GPL authors (but only some) to demonize others who might have to spend months or years on creations. It is only a side-effect in many cases, and has made progress partially because it has been a default license of choice. FreeBSD has to base itself on it's quality (by whatever measure), but there are LOTS of types of quality. One kind of quality is freedom of use, modification and redistribution by those who get a copy of FreeBSD. There are areas where other OSes have better quality than FreeBSD, but FreeBSD has to learn to capitalize better (in a figurative sense) on it's advantages. Sometimes comparison is very difficult without showing the flaws that FreeBSD doesn't have (for certain large classes of users and customers.) It would be wonderful if the common knowledge about licenses was more accurate, and more information was common knowledge, but that is just not true. Since this is a FreeBSD list, it seems that strategizing might be sometimes (but not incessantly) appropriate here. It does seem that flaming isn't productive though, and there doesn't really seem like there has been a lot of that recently. Maybe some people have more zeal than others, and if (zeal <= Stallmanzeal) or (zeal <= newLinuxUser), what is wrong with that? :-). Sure, it might not be optimal, but where in this world are things even nearly optimal? -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Feb 22 23:37: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7606710EBC for ; Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:36:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id IAA23686 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:36:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 8BE8F8839; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:27:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:27:46 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD early days... (fwd) Message-ID: <19990223082746.A32965@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990223130123.F93492@lemis.com> <19990223135401.N93492@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990223135401.N93492@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 01:54:01PM +1030 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5084 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Greg Lehey: > This was 0.9. I don't know when they did the first release. NetBSD's first release was 0.8, not 0.9. I can find the approx. date for this as a friend of mine (now a FreeBSD committer :-)) used it at some point before we introduced him to FreeBSD. I think 0.0 was in '91 (or early 92) and 0.1 in '92. The Great Flame War was in March or April '93 and NetBSD was created around that date. I know that I upgraded to FreeBSD 1.0.2 in Sep. 93. I started using 1.1-CURRENT just after that. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #69: Mon Jan 18 02:02:12 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 0: 2:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EE7F411EBE for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:02:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 26795 invoked from network); 23 Feb 1999 08:02:08 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 23 Feb 1999 08:02:08 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id DAA02845; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 03:02:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902230802.DAA02845@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222155920.0404e9d0@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Feb 22, 99 04:04:53 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 03:02:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said: > One concern I've always had about the GPL and the FSF is that they appear > to violate the Robinson-Patman Act. They make code free to users, free to > developers of GPLed software, and expensive or utterly unattainable to > developers of commercial software. Richard Stallman specifically states > that an effect of the GPL will be to remove software from the realm of > competition. > > Is this illegal price discrimination? Here's a copy of the relevant language: > .... RMS's lawyers are likely bigger than a reasonable size of us could pool together and afford to hire. I suspect that it would be a battle of lawyers, and since the world tends towards socialism and/or totalitarianism without vigilance and lots of effort, this would be a life-long cause. ..... What *will* happen, is that times will be less fat in the future, than they are now... People will end up doing less and less for free, and worry more about feeding their kids, parents, and maybe themselves. At that point, the gratis programming efforts will diminish, and the jobless programmers (if it ever happens) will wish that there is more code under the BSD license, and avoid anything that they can't profit on based upon their skills... Either that, they'll be picking fruit in the fields... :-(. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 0: 9:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DA631130D; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:09:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA16573; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:39:16 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id SAA49981; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:39:10 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990223183910.P93492@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:39:10 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD advocacy list , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Bill Gates: "FreeBSD is our competitor" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In an otherwise forgettable interview with Bill Gates published in issue 4/1999 of the German magazine c't, I note the following question and answer fragment: c't: How much competition does Linux really pose to Windows NT? More and more large companies are using Linux. Could that become dangerous for NT? Gates: Windows NT has always had some competition. FreeBSD has been around for a long time. Apache, free software, has been used by large companies for a long time. Maybe you have only noticed it now. We have had competition from free software for a long time. Our job is to do the things that people expect from an operating system [excuse me while a laugh myself silly. Ah, that's better] and to bring it to a completely new level. That is what we're doing with Windows 2000. That is what we will do if future versions. [More stuff omitted. He did *not* mention Linux in his answer. This is pretty typical of the interview, which I found a bit disappointing. The interviewers could have really hammered him in a couple of places, but if they did, they didn't publish it]. For those of you who read c't, it's in the middle of the right-hand column on page 20. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 0:16:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8EF11F6E for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:16:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA02820; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:16:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990223010632.00b594b0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:08:06 -0700 To: dyson@iquest.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199902230802.DAA02845@y.dyson.net> References: <4.1.19990222155920.0404e9d0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:02 AM 2/23/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >RMS's lawyers are likely bigger than a reasonable size of us could pool >together and afford to hire. Why? Does he have huge amounts of cash? If so, why does he live in a cubicle at MIT? >What *will* happen, is that times will be less fat in the future, than >they are now... People will end up doing less and less for free, and worry >more about feeding their kids, parents, and maybe themselves. At that >point, the gratis programming efforts will diminish, and the jobless >programmers (if it ever happens) will wish that there is more code under >the BSD license, and avoid anything that they can't profit on based upon >their skills... Either that, they'll be picking fruit in the fields... :-(. We'll see. I personally think that the legality of the GPL should be determined regardless. It's better when one knows what one is up against. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 0:19:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1CF812020; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:18:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA16598; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:48:43 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id SAA49999; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:48:41 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990223184841.Q93492@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:48:41 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , FreeBSD advocacy list , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Bill Gates: "FreeBSD is our competitor" References: <19990223183910.P93492@lemis.com> <4.1.19990223011331.0097bb80@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990223011331.0097bb80@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 01:16:15AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23 February 1999 at 1:16:15 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:39 PM 2/23/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> In an otherwise forgettable interview with Bill Gates published in >> issue 4/1999 of the German magazine c't, I note the following question >> and answer fragment: >> >> c't: How much competition does Linux really pose to Windows NT? >> More and more large companies are using Linux. Could that >> become dangerous for NT? >> >> Gates: Windows NT has always had some competition. FreeBSD has been >> around for a long time. Apache, free software, has been used >> by large companies for a long time. Maybe you have only >> noticed it now. We have had competition from free software for >> a long time. Our job is to do the things that people expect >> from an operating system [excuse me while a laugh myself silly. >> Ah, that's better] and to bring it to a completely new level. >> That is what we're doing with Windows 2000. That is what we >> will do if future versions. >> >> [More stuff omitted. He did *not* mention Linux in his answer. >> This is pretty typical of the interview, which I found a bit >> disappointing. The interviewers could have really hammered him >> in a couple of places, but if they did, they didn't publish >> it]. >> >> For those of you who read c't, it's in the middle of the right-hand >> column on page 20. > > Microsoft execs have a practice of decreeing that employees must > NOT mention a major competitor's name, especially in the presence > of reporters. They would, for instance, pay a fine if they mentioned > the "N-word" (that is, "Netscape") instead of saying, "that browser > company." > > I suspect that the same sort of edict has been issued with regard > to Linux. Certainly I thought that he used the name FreeBSD to change the subject, but firstly I don't think any such edict would apply to King Bill, and secondly he spoke at length about Netscape, AOL and Sun in the interview (without saying very much). Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 0:19:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E26FD11EF5 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:16:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem15.masternet.it [194.184.65.25]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA23307; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:15:45 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990223092301.0092e9c0@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:24:23 +0100 To: Greg Lehey From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: Lawsuit with Novel Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19990223133226.L93492@lemis.com> References: <199902230234.TAA13718@usr08.primenet.com> <4.1.19990222191438.009d3f00@194.184.65.4> <199902230234.TAA13718@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> Novel = Novell >This one isn't mine. Eheheh it's mine, but I am only half guilty because I copy what I found in the original msg I replied :-) Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 0:20:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA86711F57 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:16:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA25638; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:16:08 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA08040; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:16:06 +0100 (MET) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:16:06 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Christopher Masto Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) Message-ID: <19990223091605.D2606@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990222082525.A1429@ska.bsn> <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net>; from Christopher Masto on Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 02:34:16PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 02:34:16PM -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: > On Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 11:37:17PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > bad. We can still get along. Every day I use FreeBSD it bothers me a > little that things like softupdates and parts of vinum are not free > software. Maybe one day I or someone else will write free Soft updates come under a license that is approximately as restrictive as the GPL. Vinum has parts restrictively licensed to pay for the development of the other parts. The parts that haven't been freed yet will be freed later (if I understood Greg Lehey correctly). These aren't the parts that bother me. What bothers me is the restrictively licensed "core parts" - awk, dc, cpio, grep, diff, grep, gzip, sort, tar, uucp. I'm bothered a tiny bit by the toolchain being restrictively licensed, but not as much. I believe that a restrictive license like the GPL may be the right choice for development tools (though NOT the GPL itself, due to the number of ways you can screw yourself with it, and the lack of ability of a reasonable entity to gran exceptions). Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 0:20:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from www.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BBAB12031 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:19:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from suzy (modem15.masternet.it [194.184.65.25]) by www.giovannelli.it (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA02648 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:18:57 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <4.1.19990223092439.00931d60@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.4 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:27:46 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Thanks.. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd like to thanks everyone for have writing his memories/opinions/ideas and so on FreeBSD early days and about the "historical" background . It is very usefull for me. It is not so common to find so kind persons. Thanks again... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 0:20:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E2EA11F8C; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:16:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA02823; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:16:18 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990223011331.0097bb80@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:16:15 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD advocacy list , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Bill Gates: "FreeBSD is our competitor" In-Reply-To: <19990223183910.P93492@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Microsoft execs have a practice of decreeing that employees must NOT mention a major competitor's name, especially in the presence of reporters. They would, for instance, pay a fine if they mentioned the "N-word" (that is, "Netscape") instead of saying, "that browser company." I suspect that the same sort of edict has been issued with regard to Linux. --Brett At 06:39 PM 2/23/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >In an otherwise forgettable interview with Bill Gates published in >issue 4/1999 of the German magazine c't, I note the following question >and answer fragment: > >c't: How much competition does Linux really pose to Windows NT? > More and more large companies are using Linux. Could that > become dangerous for NT? > >Gates: Windows NT has always had some competition. FreeBSD has been > around for a long time. Apache, free software, has been used > by large companies for a long time. Maybe you have only > noticed it now. We have had competition from free software for > a long time. Our job is to do the things that people expect > from an operating system [excuse me while a laugh myself silly. > Ah, that's better] and to bring it to a completely new level. > That is what we're doing with Windows 2000. That is what we > will do if future versions. > > [More stuff omitted. He did *not* mention Linux in his answer. > This is pretty typical of the interview, which I found a bit > disappointing. The interviewers could have really hammered him > in a couple of places, but if they did, they didn't publish > it]. > >For those of you who read c't, it's in the middle of the right-hand >column on page 20. > >Greg >-- >See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers >finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 0:22:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E27D1206C; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:22:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA02863; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:22:13 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990223012028.00b55bf0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:22:10 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , FreeBSD advocacy list , FreeBSD Chat From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Bill Gates: "FreeBSD is our competitor" In-Reply-To: <19990223184841.Q93492@lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990223011331.0097bb80@mail.lariat.org> <19990223183910.P93492@lemis.com> <4.1.19990223011331.0097bb80@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:48 PM 2/23/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >Certainly I thought that he used the name FreeBSD to change the >subject, but firstly I don't think any such edict would apply to King >Bill, and secondly he spoke at length about Netscape, AOL and Sun in >the interview (without saying very much). The edict expires when the competitor is neutralized. However, the fines for the rich execs are higher than for the rank and file -- in fact, they're rumored to be 5 digits or more. Sort of a high-stakes game that's played among them. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 2: 1:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ifi.uio.no (ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D3A110AF for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 02:01:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@ifi.uio.no) Received: from bilskirnir.ifi.uio.no (2602@bilskirnir.ifi.uio.no [129.240.64.135]) by ifi.uio.no (8.8.8/8.8.7/ifi0.2) with ESMTP id LAA27375 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:01:37 +0100 (MET) Received: (from des@localhost) by bilskirnir.ifi.uio.no ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:01:37 +0100 (MET) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Refund this! From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 23 Feb 1999 11:01:36 +0100 Message-ID: Lines: 5 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@ifi.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 3:34:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77EA110FEE for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 03:34:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id MAA20732 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:34:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10FFnr-000WyeC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:15:03 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: GPL issues Date: 23 Feb 1999 12:14:59 +0100 Message-ID: <7au2jj$ehs$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <19990223031602.E088B46688@pobox.com> <4.1.19990222201937.00977b90@mail.lariat.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, it seems to me that freebsd-chat is entirely the wrong place to fight the GPL. Why don't you sit back, wipe the foam off your mouth, and write a well-reasoned paper comparing several "free" licenses, or why the BSD license is preferable to GPL, or some such. An eloquent document to point people to would do the community a much better service than loads of emotionally charged, transient flaming. For most people I know the GPL is *the* license. It's the license that covers all that great software (Linux, gcc, Emacs, GNU *, KDE, ...), so it must be the best, no? People tend to accept it uncritically. Now, if I point somebody to the BSD license, the answer will inevitably be "but it allows Microsoft to rip off my code". To make some headway I need something to point people to that discontructs this myth. You are spending a prodigious amount of time preaching to the converted and putting them off of you personally. Why not do something constructive instead? EUR 0.02, -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de 100+ SF Book Reviews: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 4:45:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gatekeeper.itribe.net (gatekeeper.itribe.net [209.49.144.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 94A0611054 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:45:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jamie@itribe.net) Message-Id: <199902231248.HAA11060@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Received: forwarded by SMTP 1.5.2. Received: from localhost (jamie@localhost) by marsellus.itribe.net (8.8.5/8.8.6) with SMTP id HAA27012 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:45:11 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:45:10 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I'm outta here In-Reply-To: <199902230448.UAA05278@kithrup.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Sean Eric Fagan wrote: > For the past six weeks, this list has consisted of almost nothing but > the twit brett's whines about linux and the GPL. > > Here's a clue for all the needful: anytime you need to build yourself > up by attacking some other person, entity, or project, you're along the > path of failure. Feeling just a little hipocritical this morning, Sean? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Feb 1999 22:23:55 -0800 (PST) From: Sean Eric Fagan To: jamie@itribe.net Subject: Re: More important Windows Refund Day coverage... >So the authors that create the content of the books aren't supposed to be >able to pay their mortgages? Greg, you wanna give back all the money from >_Porting UNIX Software_ because RMS thinks you should starve? You're an idiot. Go away. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 5:39: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw6.pacbell.net (mail-gw6.pacbell.net [206.13.28.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0745410E6A for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:39:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jackv@earthling.net) Received: from jackv (adsl-209-76-108-106.dsl.pacbell.net [209.76.108.106]) by mail-gw6.pacbell.net (8.8.8/8.7.1+antispam) with SMTP id FAA02249 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:39:02 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <001d01be5f31$dbb71e80$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> Reply-To: "Jack Velte" From: "Jack Velte" To: Subject: RealNetworks releases Linux content tool Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:32:06 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.real.com/products/tools/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/990223-000012.html Posted 23/02/99 1:09pm by a staff writer RealNetworks releases Linux content tool RealNetworks has released a beta version of its content-creation application RealProducer Plus G2 for Linux. The company also announced today the final version of the software for Compaq's Tru64 incarnation of Unix, and the final release of the more advanced RealProducer Pro G2 for Windows 95/98/NT. RealProducer Plus is RealNetwork's entry-level tool for creating streamable versions of audio and video files, and integrating them into Web pages. The Pro release adds timelining and synchronisation features, plus the ability to worth with SMIL (Synchronised Multimedia Integration Language) and handle batch processing tasks. According to the company, the Unix versions of RealProducer Plus have been optimised for live audio and video encoding, and support the OS' remote control and administration facilities. RealProducer Plus costs $149.99 from RealNetworks' Web site; RealProducer Pro costs $499.99. ® To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 5:39:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD4C611122 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:39:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10FI3N-000O0j-00; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:39:15 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id NAA03215; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:38:39 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA09620; Tue, 23 Feb 99 13:38:36 GMT Message-Id: <36D2AF58.A2FB5E82@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:38:32 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act References: <4.1.19990222155920.0404e9d0@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990223010632.00b594b0@mail.lariat.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 03:02 AM 2/23/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > >RMS's lawyers are likely bigger than a reasonable size of us could pool > >together and afford to hire. > > Why? Does he have huge amounts of cash? If so, why does he live in > a cubicle at MIT? > I've been following the threads about the GPL with interest, but one thing puzzles me, and now that someone has mentioned lawyers it seems an appropriate time to ask. Surely the only way to enforce the terms of either the GPL or Berkeley licence is through the courts, but could any organization in the free software world actually afford such litigation (which I imagine would run into millions of dollars in the US)? If FreeBSD Inc. were to take GPL'd code and add it to the source tree under a Berkeley-style licence what could the FSF do about it? The 2 comments quoted above suggest that the FSF could possibly afford legal action against FreeBSD, but what if it was Sun, IBM, M$ etc. I can't believe that they could afford to take on a company of that size. In other words does this not mean that the GPL etc. relies on other people being honourable and observing the terms of the licence even though they may not agree with those terms? -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 7:42:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stade.demon.co.uk (stade.demon.co.uk [158.152.29.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3772E11DDF for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:42:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.1) id GAA93736 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 06:34:52 GMT (envelope-from aw1) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 06:34:51 +0000 From: Adrian Wontroba To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Port upgrade check/report tool Message-ID: <19990223063451.A60928@titus.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk References: <199902181150.WAA13777@whirlwind.netspace.net.au> <4.1.19990222194935.009c8660@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990222194935.009c8660@194.184.65.4>; from Gianmarco Giovannelli on Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 07:52:16PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 07:52:16PM +0100, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > A good thing to think too is to make a proggy which delete/archive/move the > old distfile files when they are not required anymore from their port > (perhaps because the port was upgraded to a newer version) /usr/ports/sysutils/pib/pkg/DESCR The Ports Index Browser provides a quick and powerful means for browsing the FreeBSD Ports Collection INDEX file and performing related functions. It provides an intuitive GUI interface, online help and useful distfile management functions. (including zapping distfiles with incorrect checksums, no longer referenced in Makefiles, etc) -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 8: 8:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4ABF120AF for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:08:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23241; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:08:11 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:08:10 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: reviewers for a free software license In-Reply-To: <61961.919737106@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Would anyone care to review a software license I and a friend are working on? > > The goal is to present the basic ideas in a Berkeley style license in a > > simple text file that people can simple include with their work or refer > > to by name/url the way they can with the GPL and Artistic licenses. > > I like the basic idea of encapsulating the sentiments of the Berkeley > license in a "simple text file", however I don't see one of those > here. :-) > I think I miscommunicated when I used that phrase. :) You see I believe that the actual keys to the GPL's popularity are such factors as ease of use, formality, and appearance of legitimacy. When I say a simple text file, I don't mean the content of the file. I mean that someone can use the license by simply copying it to their license.txt file, and placing a note or two in the source and documentation that the material is UFL'ed the way they can now with the GPL. What we're trying to do is create a license that is not limited to software, achieves the same basic goals as the Berkeley style license, but is easier for the average lazy person to use and feel comfortable with. (we are not necessarily opposed to the GPL and this license is not intended to combat it. This is simply an attempt to create a friendly license that achieves something different. We refer to the GPL mainly as a 'success model' to follow :) > My definition of a simple text file which conveyed the "basic ideas" > of the BSDL would be: > > The Universal Simple License > ---------------------------- > The following materials are copyright (C) Joe Blow, 1999 and may be > used, modified and redistributed in any form for any purpose provided > that the following provisions are strictly adhered to: > > Do not remove or modify the text of this license agreement > or attempt to assert authorship for unmodified portions of > the code. The author is giving you the code, grant them at > least due credit for it in return. > > The author assumes no liability whatsoever for this code. You > break it, you fix it, and what you see here you use entirely at > your own risk. > > That's 97 words, including "(C) Joe Blow, 1999", text which would > obviously get longer if you covered more years or shorter if your name > was something like "Prince." A license in 100 words or less is the > kind of license I like to see! > This covers all the same ideas, but honestly if we were to do it along these lines, I would copy the BSL verbatim (if I could figure out who owns is and get their permission :) ) with just the changes needed to make it apply to non-software, and to be generic enough for people to say "this package is covered by the BSL". We're attempting to achieve the other goal as well though, which is formality. Saying everything clearly and with no confusion, as well as putting in words things people worry about with the BSL such as "if I use the BSL then someone else can make my code not be free!" and "Oh no, The Evil Ones will relicense my code as GPL!!!!" without changing the actual meaning of the license :) > For a rather more extreme example of this, those of you who keep track > of such things may also have noticed the "license" I very deliberately > used for the ports collection mechanism itself (in bsd.port.mk): > > # bsd.port.mk - 940820 Jordan K. Hubbard. > # This file is in the public domain. > > .. the intention being to try and get the other *BSDs at least to > adopt it (Linux would be nice, but Berkeley make is a special hurdle > for them). > > That whole process took a little longer than some people might have > hoped for, but if there were any impediments to progress that people > complained about during the process, the license was never raised as > one of them and I rather liked that. Considering how much free > software people love to screech in 3 different keys about this kind of > thing in any pan-OS effort, you might even consider it "fucking > amazing" that nobody complained. Sometimes a simple license really > does have its merits. :-) > > Anyway, going PD might be a bit too far for some, but I think the > "USL" I suggested above might find some adherents. I find the > burgeoning trend towards "empty legalese which only sounds impressive" > in software licenses to be rather disturbing, personally, and I think > some of us are aping it only because it "seems like the safe thing to > do" when you're out looking for some boilerplate text. Ugh. :-) > > - Jordan > I would love to live in a world that made it safe to release things into the public domain on a regular basis :) I tend to think of the BSL as "PD with protection" and like it a lot for my own works, as unworthy as they may be :) We're not actually trying for any form of impressive sounding legalese, but aiming for a certain degree of formality in our text to specify things clearly and without any doubt or confusion. Something around the level of Larry Wall's artistic-license, though we're not as good at it as he is, though with BSL intentions. Our third goal, 'legitimacy' is a more difficult one, and will require that I pay a lawyer when we're all done to get this 'authenticated' and then find some established group to donate the entire thing to, to get my name out of it :) I'm sorry, I'm babbling a bit :) I updated the ufl a small bit based on the feedback we've received so far, although it's only perhaps a 5% change... still here's hoping for more feedback, detailed suggestions, etc :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 10:32: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD3B114CD for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:31:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA22318; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:30:48 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:30:48 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Mark Ovens Cc: Brett Glass , dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-Reply-To: <36D2AF58.A2FB5E82@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > Brett Glass wrote: > > > > At 03:02 AM 2/23/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > >RMS's lawyers are likely bigger than a reasonable size of us could pool > > >together and afford to hire. > > > > Why? Does he have huge amounts of cash? If so, why does he live in > > a cubicle at MIT? > > > > I've been following the threads about the GPL with interest, but one > thing puzzles me, and now that someone has mentioned lawyers it seems > an appropriate time to ask. > > Surely the only way to enforce the terms of either the GPL or Berkeley > licence is through the courts, but could any organization in the free > software world actually afford such litigation (which I imagine would > run into millions of dollars in the US)? > > If FreeBSD Inc. were to take GPL'd code and add it to the source tree > under a Berkeley-style licence what could the FSF do about it? The 2 > comments quoted above suggest that the FSF could possibly afford legal > action against FreeBSD, but what if it was Sun, IBM, M$ etc. I can't > believe that they could afford to take on a company of that size. > a) it would be the worst thing to do - for FreeBSD a complete PR catastrophe. b) they would not depend upon courts but on publicity and flaming and boycotts, etc. Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > In other words does this not mean that the GPL etc. relies on other > people being honourable and observing the terms of the licence even > though they may not agree with those terms? > > -- > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov > _______________________________________________________________ > Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK > CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry > mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 10:55:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AE989112FF for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:55:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 10687 invoked from network); 23 Feb 1999 18:55:09 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 23 Feb 1999 18:55:09 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA03712; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:55:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902231855.NAA03712@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) In-Reply-To: <19990223091605.D2606@bitbox.follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Feb 23, 99 09:16:06 am" To: eivind@FreeBSD.ORG (Eivind Eklund) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:55:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: chris@netmonger.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund said: > > These aren't the parts that bother me. What bothers me is the > restrictively licensed "core parts" - awk, dc, cpio, grep, diff, grep, > gzip, sort, tar, uucp. > The thing about the above tools, is that there is little use in modifying them substantially. In essense, as a developer, I wouldn't be basing a big part of a product on the above tools, and modifying them. GPL is "ok" in the sense as just grabbing the code, running away with it, and using it and giving away source. So, I have to distribute the source for "grep" on the CDROMs for my product? :-). The source for "grep" might be smaller than the binary... In fact, the additional cost for GPLed works, in the sense of giving away "bits", might sometimes be on the order of "BSDL", with the numerous acknowledgements. > > I'm bothered a tiny bit by the toolchain being restrictively licensed, > but not as much. I believe that a restrictive license like the GPL > may be the right choice for development tools (though NOT the GPL > itself, due to the number of ways you can screw yourself with it, and > the lack of ability of a reasonable entity to gran exceptions). > In the case of GPL development tools, it is (IMO) a little worse, due to the possibility of actually adding creative enhancements. If one takes the attitude of just using the tools as a black box, hands off, other than to distribute source, then GPL is okay there. The problem with GPL, IMO, is where it infringes upon areas where creative endeavors might be involved. Most of what is GPLed is pretty much logical copies of what has been done for years. Look at TenDRA (non-GPL) for serious innovation, for example. (They have an intriguing non-traditional structure.) It is the IP worker (programmer, and innovative designer) that is specifically targeted and discriminated against by GPL. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 11: 4:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CF156110BE for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:04:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 22257 invoked from network); 23 Feb 1999 19:04:31 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 23 Feb 1999 19:04:31 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA03725; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:04:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902231904.OAA03725@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990223010632.00b594b0@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Feb 23, 99 01:08:06 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:04:32 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said: > At 03:02 AM 2/23/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > >RMS's lawyers are likely bigger than a reasonable size of us could pool > >together and afford to hire. > > Why? Does he have huge amounts of cash? If so, why does he live in > a cubicle at MIT? > Doesn't FSF have a pool of cash, and perhaps an agenda that really sounds good to the liberal elite? This is a perfect case for organizations who have the attitude of "knowing what is best for everyone else." The silly manifesto reeks of that attitude. > > >What *will* happen, is that times will be less fat in the future, than > >they are now... People will end up doing less and less for free, and worry > >more about feeding their kids, parents, and maybe themselves. At that > >point, the gratis programming efforts will diminish, and the jobless > >programmers (if it ever happens) will wish that there is more code under > >the BSD license, and avoid anything that they can't profit on based upon > >their skills... Either that, they'll be picking fruit in the fields... :-(. > > We'll see. I personally think that the legality of the GPL should be > determined regardless. It's better when one knows what one is up against. > Maybe I don't *hate* GPL nearly as much as just wanting to make sure that people know that they are following a lazy path that has been paved by those who "know more than they do." People who are innovative IP workers need to consciously control what they do with their works. Just because someone is a good programmer, doesn't mean that they really understand the effects of the disposition of their works. Note that I used to work in the military complex, and had real problems with the disposition of my work (even though I am a conservative hawk.) When things get up-front and personal, feelings change. In the case of my work, I decided that just hacking code (or making weapons) wasn't good enough. I really want to make sure that work that I do goes to a cause that supports the ability of other people like me to feed their kids, etc. GPL is just not that kind of license. The GPL legacy isn't for the programmer, but optimizes the exploitation of programmers, even more so in some respects than proprietary works. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 11: 9:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5094611061 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:09:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 28275 invoked from network); 23 Feb 1999 19:09:25 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 23 Feb 1999 19:09:25 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA03734; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:09:23 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902231909.OAA03734@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-Reply-To: <36D2AF58.A2FB5E82@uk.radan.com> from Mark Ovens at "Feb 23, 99 01:38:32 pm" To: marko@uk.radan.com (Mark Ovens) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:09:23 -0500 (EST) Cc: brett@lariat.org, dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens said: > > Surely the only way to enforce the terms of either the GPL or Berkeley > licence is through the courts, but could any organization in the free > software world actually afford such litigation (which I imagine would > run into millions of dollars in the US)? > > If FreeBSD Inc. were to take GPL'd code and add it to the source tree > under a Berkeley-style licence what could the FSF do about it? The 2 > comments quoted above suggest that the FSF could possibly afford legal > action against FreeBSD, but what if it was Sun, IBM, M$ etc. I can't > believe that they could afford to take on a company of that size. > > In other words does this not mean that the GPL etc. relies on other > people being honourable and observing the terms of the licence even > though they may not agree with those terms? > One of the basis of my beliefs is to follow the licenses of others, in meaning and legally. I could not knowingly violate someone elses license and be happy with myself. In a sense, the GPL world is depending on the honor of those who it is most destructive. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 11:27: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2908A10E7C for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:27:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00150; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:27:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:27:02 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Jack Velte Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: RealNetworks releases Linux content tool Message-ID: <19990223112701.D27934@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <001d01be5f31$dbb71e80$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <001d01be5f31$dbb71e80$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net>; from Jack Velte on Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 08:32:06AM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 08:32:06AM -0500, Jack Velte wrote: > http://www.real.com/products/tools/ > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/990223-000012.html > Posted 23/02/99 1:09pm by a staff writer > > RealNetworks releases Linux content tool > > RealNetworks has released a beta version of its content-creation application > RealProducer Plus G2 for Linux. But they don't even have a G2 _player_ for Linux yet! Maybe they're getting a bit ahead of themselves here, a bit too caught up in the "Linux is a server, Windows is a desktop" bug that's going around. Feel free to s/Linux/FreeBSD/ these paragraphs if the L word offends you. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasmic. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 12: 2:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C4F1117B for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:02:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA09015; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:02:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990223124854.03ff5c20@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:49:41 -0700 To: Narvi , Mark Ovens From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act Cc: dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <36D2AF58.A2FB5E82@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:30 PM 2/23/99 +0200, Narvi wrote: >a) it would be the worst thing to do - for FreeBSD a complete PR > catastrophe. No one is suggesting that the FreeBSD project file the suit. A commercial developer should. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 12:33:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2450311375 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:33:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10FOWQ-0000r9-00; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:33:39 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id UAA08924; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:32:39 GMT Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA00290; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:30:52 GMT (envelope-from marko) Message-ID: <19990223203052.B216@localhost> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:30:52 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Narvi Cc: Brett Glass , dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act References: <36D2AF58.A2FB5E82@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Narvi on Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 08:30:48PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 08:30:48PM +0200, Narvi wrote: > > On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > If FreeBSD Inc. were to take GPL'd code and add it to the source tree > > under a Berkeley-style licence what could the FSF do about it? The 2 > > comments quoted above suggest that the FSF could possibly afford legal > > action against FreeBSD, but what if it was Sun, IBM, M$ etc. I can't > > believe that they could afford to take on a company of that size. > > > > a) it would be the worst thing to do - for FreeBSD a complete PR > catastrophe. > b) they would not depend upon courts but on publicity and flaming and > boycotts, etc. > I realize that, and that is, I suspect, the main reason why we respect the terms of the GPL (even if we don't agree with them). What I was more interested in was the legal situation if a commercial organization were to use GPL'd code in that way. I hardly think M$ would be concerned about bad PR from the Linux world. -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 12:54:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3373F11639 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:54:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA24721; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:54:09 +0200 (EET) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:54:09 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Mark Ovens Cc: Brett Glass , dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-Reply-To: <19990223203052.B216@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 08:30:48PM +0200, Narvi wrote: > > > > On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > > > If FreeBSD Inc. were to take GPL'd code and add it to the source tree > > > under a Berkeley-style licence what could the FSF do about it? The 2 > > > comments quoted above suggest that the FSF could possibly afford legal > > > action against FreeBSD, but what if it was Sun, IBM, M$ etc. I can't > > > believe that they could afford to take on a company of that size. > > > > > > > a) it would be the worst thing to do - for FreeBSD a complete PR > > catastrophe. > > b) they would not depend upon courts but on publicity and flaming and > > boycotts, etc. > > > > I realize that, and that is, I suspect, the main reason why we > respect the terms of the GPL (even if we don't agree with them). UHHH.... I am pretty much sure the FreeBSD project respects GPL for just the reason that the FreeBSD project respects copyrights, period. > > What I was more interested in was the legal situation if a commercial > organization were to use GPL'd code in that way. I hardly think M$ > would be concerned about bad PR from the Linux world. > a) they would be concerned. If proven, it would be very bad PR in general. Remeber that MS is very active in that FUD terrorist organisation BSA. b) An easy case would also be an easy case in the court more likely than not. MS cannot take a long copyright infringement case, at least not right now. c) What's the reason? MS can always hire n more programmers to write the exact same code without major delay. > -- > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov > _______________________________________________________________ > Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK > CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry > mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 13: 2:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE133116BA for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:02:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA09640; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:01:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990223140048.04015de0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:01:50 -0700 To: Narvi , Mark Ovens From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act Cc: dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990223203052.B216@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:54 PM 2/23/99 +0200, Narvi wrote: >c) What's the reason? MS can always hire n more programmers to write the >exact same code without major delay. Not only that: They can clean-room it, which is easier if the code is subtle. The GPL isn't any protection at all from a big company. It only hurts SMALL independent developers. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 13:29:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gras-varg.worldgate.com (gras-varg.worldgate.com [198.161.84.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D0311774 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:29:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from skafte@gras-varg.worldgate.com) Received: (from skafte@localhost) by gras-varg.worldgate.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id OAA25608 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:29:01 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:29:00 -0700 From: Greg Skafte To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Some Tuesday levity Message-ID: <19990223142900.J23992@gras-varg.worldgate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i Organization: WorldGate Inc. X-PGP-Fingerprint: 42 9C 2C A8 4D 2B C9 C4 7D B6 00 B0 50 47 20 97 X-URL: http://gras-varg.worldgate.com/~skafte Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org this came across my email today and ..... The organization is like a tree full of monkeys, all on different limbs at different levels, some climbing up, some fooling around some simply just idling. The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but assholes. -- Email: skafte@worldgate.com Voice: +403 413 1910 Fax: +403 421 4929 #575 Sun Life Place * 10123 99 Street * Edmonton, AB * Canada * T5J 3H1 -- -- When things can't get any worse, they simplify themselves by getting a whole lot worse then complicated. A complete and utter disaster is the simplest thing in the world; it's preventing one that's complex. (Janet Morris) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 13:32:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DB6911790 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:32:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA09987; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:32:37 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990223143139.0402c250@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:32:31 -0700 To: Greg Skafte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Some Tuesday levity In-Reply-To: <19990223142900.J23992@gras-varg.worldgate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:29 PM 2/23/99 -0700, Greg Skafte wrote: >this came across my email today and ..... > > > >The organization is like a tree full of monkeys, all on different limbs > at different levels, some climbing up, some fooling around some > simply just idling. > > The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. > The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but assholes. ...and it's the ones at the bottom who get hit with all the [excrement] from above. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 14: 7:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4119117F9 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:07:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10FPzM-00078r-00; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:07:37 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-2 [193.114.228.212]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id WAA05488; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:06:55 GMT Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00495; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:04:39 GMT (envelope-from marko) Message-ID: <19990223220438.C216@localhost> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:04:38 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act References: <36D2AF58.A2FB5E82@uk.radan.com> <199902231909.OAA03734@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199902231909.OAA03734@y.dyson.net>; from John S. Dyson on Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 02:09:23PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 02:09:23PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > One of the basis of my beliefs is to follow the licenses of others, in > meaning and legally. I could not knowingly violate someone elses license > and be happy with myself. Which, of course, is the right and proper thing to do. > In a sense, the GPL world is depending on > the honor of those who it is most destructive. > This confirms what I thought. The GPL and Berkeley-style licence work more through a "Gentlemens Agreement" than the threat of a law suit and, as another poster pointed out, a PR disaster if, for example, FreeBSD were to hijack GPL code and release it under a Berkeley-style licence. None of this of course is protection against M$ taking a Linux or FreeBSD distribution and releasing it with an M$ logo (Minux or Winux?) under their EULA. The bad PR is hardly likely to concern them. After all everyone slags off M$ anyway, so a bit more isn't going to make any difference. A daft idea M$ releasing a version of Linux/FreeBSD? Not necessarily. Linux/FreeBSD with an M$ logo would be a lot more attractive to the suits than Linux with a Red Hat logo. It would evolve more and more towards NT until it disappeared, but it would give them a lot of control over the "free" Unix market and severely damage the market share of real Linux/FreeBSD. After all they didn't release IE to make a profit on it as a product but to influence and exert control on the market, the ultimate aim of which I suspect is control of the Internet. And what could anyone do to stop them? I doubt FreeBSD would have a case as it wouldn't contravene the FreeBSD licence (would it?) and the only way the FSF could enforce the GPL is through the courts, but could they afford to take on M$?. > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 14:31: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691EC11B96 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:31:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10FQLy-0007H6-00; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:30:59 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-2 [193.114.228.212]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id WAA14270; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:30:13 GMT Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00534; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:28:29 GMT (envelope-from marko) Message-ID: <19990223222829.D216@localhost> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:28:29 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Narvi Cc: Brett Glass , dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act References: <19990223203052.B216@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Narvi on Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 10:54:09PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 10:54:09PM +0200, Narvi wrote: > > a) they would be concerned. If proven, it would be very bad PR in general. > Remeber that MS is very active in that FUD terrorist organisation BSA. > Hmmm, I'm not so sure. What's M$ good at? Marketing and influencing markets, that's what. Their PR machine would just play on the fact that it's free/Open source software and gloss over the "small print" (like having to contribute code back etc.) > b) An easy case would also be an easy case in the court more likely than > not. It seems from where I'm sitting that it takes no less than the US govt. to bring M$ to heel. > MS cannot take a long copyright infringement case, at least not right > now. Obviously not at the moment and the future activities of M$ will be determined to a greater or lesser extent by the outcome of the current DoJ case (God help us if M$ win). > > c) What's the reason? MS can always hire n more programmers to write the > exact same code without major delay. > True, but if the code is already available "free", would they? -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 14:32: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B93B11BEF for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:31:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id XAA04976 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:31:56 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 01C748839; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:31:28 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:31:28 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD early days... (fwd) Message-ID: <19990223203128.A36210@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990223130123.F93492@lemis.com> <19990223135401.N93492@lemis.com> <19990223082746.A32965@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990223082746.A32965@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 08:27:46AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5084 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Ollivier Robert: > I think 0.0 was in '91 (or early 92) and 0.1 in '92. The Great Flame War > was in March or April '93 and NetBSD was created around that date. I know I think I got this backward. The NetBSD group (and sun-lamp and what went with it) was created before the flame-war. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #69: Mon Jan 18 02:02:12 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 14:35:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (dingo.cdrom.com [204.216.28.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CF1D11CBB for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:35:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost.cdrom.com [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA01372; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:30:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199902232230.OAA01372@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Christopher Masto Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Feb 1999 14:34:16 EST." <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:30:30 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 11:37:17PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > >Both allow individual to own things and even to profit and make > > >private capital from them. > > > > Not so. The purpose of the GPL is to destroy businesses, markets, > > and livelihoods, while duping developers into believing that it > > somehow protects their interests. > > Come off it. > > As a strong FreeBSD supporter who prefers the GPL to the various other > free software licenses I've seen, I find this thread quite disturbing. > People seem to be simultaneously upset about something that they > percieve as taking away the freedom to use whatever license they want, > while complaining about people who choose to use a different license. No, the issue here is that there are people that don't understand that the GPL is a political weapon intended to seriously change the face of the software world. You can't use the GPL with accepting the fundamental nature of what it is. > > The purpose of the GPL is to allow people to license their code under > the GPL. Period. When I write software, I happen to want the > restrictions of the GPL. I do not want my code to ever become > non-free. That's my right - it's my code. And because of this, it will never become anything other than what you make it. Nobody can take your code away from you; you don't need the GPL to "protect" you from this. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 15:45: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 972001139D for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:45:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA24483; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:44:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd024408; Tue Feb 23 16:44:42 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA18256; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:44:41 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902232344.QAA18256@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act To: marko@uk.radan.com (Mark Ovens) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:44:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990223220438.C216@localhost> from "Mark Ovens" at Feb 23, 99 10:04:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > In a sense, the GPL world is depending on > > the honor of those who it is most destructive. > > This confirms what I thought. The GPL and Berkeley-style licence > work more through a "Gentlemens Agreement" than the threat of a > law suit and, as another poster pointed out, a PR disaster if, for > example, FreeBSD were to hijack GPL code and release it under a > Berkeley-style licence. > > None of this of course is protection against M$ taking a Linux or > FreeBSD distribution and releasing it with an M$ logo (Minux or > Winux?) under their EULA. The bad PR is hardly likely to concern > them. After all everyone slags off M$ anyway, so a bit more isn't > going to make any difference. This is actually false. The FSF has filed suit against an RC5 library, in hopes of weakening the patent protection, for inclusion of a glue layer specifically designed to interact with GPL'ed code. The resoloution was to make a library that wasn't GPL'ed to the GPL'ed libraries interface, to make the glue code non-specific. The FSF has filed suit on two occasions on behalf of SAMBA, based on commercial incorporation of SAMBA code, with modification, into commercial products. The FSF has a pool of money for sueing people set aside and all ready to go, with a specific emphasis on corporations who, god help them, release code that includes patented algorithms or processes under the GPL. RMS hates intellectual property law, period. He will use his instrument (the GPL) to make his manifesto reality, at any reasonable opportunity. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 16:31:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DEE6113A5; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:31:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA20125; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:01:39 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA51753; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:01:37 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990224110137.B93492@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:01:37 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Eivind Eklund , Christopher Masto Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Vinum license (was: GPL issues (Was: More important Windows Refund Day coverage)) References: <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990221180845.J93492@lemis.com> <199902211924.OAA02025@y.dyson.net> <19990222082525.A1429@ska.bsn> <4.1.19990221233032.03fffba0@mail.lariat.org> <19990222143416.A25682@netmonger.net> <19990223091605.D2606@bitbox.follo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990223091605.D2606@bitbox.follo.net>; from Eivind Eklund on Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 09:16:06AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23 February 1999 at 9:16:06 +0100, Eivind Eklund wrote: > On Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 02:34:16PM -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: >> On Sun, Feb 21, 1999 at 11:37:17PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >> bad. We can still get along. Every day I use FreeBSD it bothers me a >> little that things like softupdates and parts of vinum are not free >> software. Maybe one day I or someone else will write free > > Soft updates come under a license that is approximately as restrictive > as the GPL. No, I'd say it's more restrictive. > Vinum has parts restrictively licensed to pay for the development of > the other parts. The parts that haven't been freed yet will be freed > later (if I understood Greg Lehey correctly). Not quite. The parts are restrictively licensed to pay for the development of exactly those parts. The remainder of Vinum is still usable and offers more than ccd. I had the choice of developing the RAID-5 software for ccd and leaving it with Cybernet, or putting it in Vinum and getting it released on a Berkeley license after 18 months. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 16:34:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D169112C3 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:34:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA20137; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:04:30 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA51767; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:04:29 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990224110428.C93492@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:04:28 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Refund this! References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 11:01:36AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 23 February 1999 at 11:01:36 +0100, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Why did you put it on your web site? I suspect that's breach of copyright, and you could just as well have pointed to the original URL. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 16:44: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 148A410F06 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:43:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id QAA65758; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:43:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Greg Skafte Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Some Tuesday levity In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:29:00 MST." <19990223142900.J23992@gras-varg.worldgate.com> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:43:52 -0800 Message-ID: <65754.919817032@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The organization is like a tree full of monkeys, all on different limbs > at different levels, some climbing up, some fooling around some > simply just idling. > > The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. > The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but assholes. Man, that sure describes the FreeBSD Project in a nutshell! :-) I need that on a poster. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 17: 4:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77A9B1139D for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:04:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10FSkZ-0002iy-00; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:04:31 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id BAA29960; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:03:46 GMT Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00728; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:02:04 GMT (envelope-from marko) Message-ID: <19990224010204.B679@localhost> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:02:04 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act References: <19990223220438.C216@localhost> <199902232344.QAA18256@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199902232344.QAA18256@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 11:44:40PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 11:44:40PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > This is actually false. > > The FSF has filed suit against an RC5 library, in hopes of weakening > the patent protection, for inclusion of a glue layer specifically > designed to interact with GPL'ed code. The resoloution was to make > a library that wasn't GPL'ed to the GPL'ed libraries interface, to > make the glue code non-specific. > > The FSF has filed suit on two occasions on behalf of SAMBA, based > on commercial incorporation of SAMBA code, with modification, > into commercial products. > So the FSF obviously takes the GPL _very_ seriously. > The FSF has a pool of money for sueing people set aside and all > ready to go, with a specific emphasis on corporations who, god help > them, release code that includes patented algorithms or processes > under the GPL. > That almost sounds like a contradiction in terms; an organization representing *free* software having vast financial resources. I presume their funds come from donations from the likes of Red Hat, Cygnus etc.? > RMS hates intellectual property law, period. He will use his > instrument (the GPL) to make his manifesto reality, at any > reasonable opportunity. > I am interested in the history of all this, such as why RMS manages to have such a powerful influence over so many people (I believe it started with a paper he wrote whilst at MIT(?)) that instills such fervour in support of the GPL (he's not the anti-Christ is he ;-) ) but I don't want to drag this thread down an inappropriate path so do you know of any URLs or books that will provide this information? Thanks > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 17:16:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5900D11036 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:16:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (bangor-1.ime.net [209.90.195.58]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.3/8.8.8-Loki) with SMTP id UAA65928; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:16:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.1.19990223201517.009a8c50@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:15:33 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Greg Skafte From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Some Tuesday levity Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <65754.919817032@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:43 PM 2/23/99 , Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> The organization is like a tree full of monkeys, all on different limbs >> at different levels, some climbing up, some fooling around some >> simply just idling. >> >> The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. >> The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but assholes. > >Man, that sure describes the FreeBSD Project in a nutshell! :-) > >I need that on a poster. Or a Hallmark card :) --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP DSS/1024 Public Key ID: 0x409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 17:37:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pobox.com (harconia-1-135.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.133.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B88201169E for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:37:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Received: from pobox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C84946381; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:37:36 -0600 (CST) To: Mark Ovens Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 24 Feb 1999 01:02:04 GMT." <19990224010204.B679@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:37:36 -0600 From: Jon Hamilton Message-Id: <19990224013736.4C84946381@pobox.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <19990224010204.B679@localhost>, Mark Ovens wrote: } Terry Labmert wrote: } > The FSF has a pool of money for sueing people set aside and all } > ready to go, with a specific emphasis on corporations who, god help } > them, release code that includes patented algorithms or processes } > under the GPL. } } That almost sounds like a contradiction in terms; an organization } representing *free* software having vast financial resources. I From the FSF perspective, _free_ refers to freedom, not to price. } presume their funds come from donations from the likes of Red Hat, } Cygnus etc.? They also sell documentation, source tapes, consulting, and take donations. -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 17:51:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 858B111C2B for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:51:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 20252 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 01:51:03 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 01:51:03 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA04896; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:51:02 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902240151.UAA04896@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-Reply-To: <19990223220438.C216@localhost> from Mark Ovens at "Feb 23, 99 10:04:38 pm" To: marko@uk.radan.com (Mark Ovens) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:51:02 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, brett@lariat.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens said: > On Tue, Feb 23, 1999 at 02:09:23PM -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: > > > > One of the basis of my beliefs is to follow the licenses of others, in > > meaning and legally. I could not knowingly violate someone elses license > > and be happy with myself. > > Which, of course, is the right and proper thing to do. > > > In a sense, the GPL world is depending on > > the honor of those who it is most destructive. > > > > This confirms what I thought. The GPL and Berkeley-style licence > work more through a "Gentlemens Agreement" than the threat of a > law suit and, as another poster pointed out, a PR disaster if, for > example, FreeBSD were to hijack GPL code and release it under a > Berkeley-style licence. > That isn't exactly what I really meant. GPL aspires to high values of a sort of morality. However, it is easy to ignore what is being traded away. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 18: 0: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D666111036 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:59:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 28801 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 01:59:43 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 01:59:43 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA04909; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:59:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902240159.UAA04909@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-Reply-To: <19990224013736.4C84946381@pobox.com> from Jon Hamilton at "Feb 23, 99 07:37:36 pm" To: hamilton@pobox.com (Jon Hamilton) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:59:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: marko@uk.radan.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jon Hamilton said: > > > From the FSF perspective, _free_ refers to freedom, not to price. > > } presume their funds come from donations from the likes of Red Hat, > } Cygnus etc.? > > They also sell documentation, source tapes, consulting, and take > donations. > I want the freedom to have a free copy of their documentation, source tapes and consulting... -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 23 18:29: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pobox.com (harconia-1-135.mdm.mke.execpc.com [169.207.133.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5514511670 for ; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:29:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Received: from pobox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B1E046381; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:28:56 -0600 (CST) To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: marko@uk.radan.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:59:42 EST." <199902240159.UAA04909@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:28:56 -0600 From: Jon Hamilton Message-Id: <19990224022856.5B1E046381@pobox.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <199902240159.UAA04909@y.dyson.net>, "John S. Dyson" wrote: } Jon Hamilton said: } > } > } > From the FSF perspective, _free_ refers to freedom, not to price. } > } > } presume their funds come from donations from the likes of Red Hat, } > } Cygnus etc.? } > } > They also sell documentation, source tapes, consulting, and take } > donations. } I want the freedom to have a free copy of their documentation, source } tapes and consulting... I want lots of things, but that doesn't mean that I can demand that people give them to me free. You chopped off the bit where Mark wrote that it sounded like a contradiction for an enterprise representing *free* software to have lots of money. All I'm saying is that when they say *free* they don't mean price. While I disagree with their agenda, I do think it's important to at least try to accurately represent it rather than spreading inaccurate information. I was merely trying to correct what appeared to be a misinterpretation. -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 13:28:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 480CC111E0 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:19:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA15518; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:22:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990223231923.0401a2a0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:19:57 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Greg Skafte From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Some Tuesday levity Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <65754.919817032@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:43 PM 2/23/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I need that on a poster. Wallpaper would be more appropriate. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 13:29:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E921186D for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:28:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA27929; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:34:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd027908; Wed Feb 24 11:34:06 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03092; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:33:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902241833.LAA03092@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act To: marko@uk.radan.com (Mark Ovens) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:33:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990224010204.B679@localhost> from "Mark Ovens" at Feb 24, 99 01:02:04 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The FSF has a pool of money for sueing people set aside and all > > ready to go, with a specific emphasis on corporations who, god help > > them, release code that includes patented algorithms or processes > > under the GPL. > > > > That almost sounds like a contradiction in terms; an organization > representing *free* software having vast financial resources. I > presume their funds come from donations from the likes of Red Hat, > Cygnus etc.? It's not. If an organization has a patent, and it releases GPL'ed code incorporating technology covered by the patent, then the GPL will be used to tear down the patent protection. This is intentional. I wish people would quit telling me what they think the "spirit of the GPL" was intended to be, without their having read the manifesto; it seems to be endemic to zealots to not read scripture. If anyone rememebrs history, that's where the Knight's Templar and the Spanish Inquisition derived from. > > RMS hates intellectual property law, period. He will use his > > instrument (the GPL) to make his manifesto reality, at any > > reasonable opportunity. > > I am interested in the history of all this, such as why RMS manages > to have such a powerful influence over so many people (I believe > it started with a paper he wrote whilst at MIT(?)) that instills > such fervour in support of the GPL (he's not the anti-Christ is he > ;-) ) but I don't want to drag this thread down an inappropriate > path so do you know of any URLs or books that will provide this > information? http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/philosophy.html Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 13:31:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78BD511996 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 13:30:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA10676 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:05:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:05:42 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Generic Unix term? Message-ID: <19990223200542.L27934@orcrist.mediacity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There's BSD, Linux, AIX, SCO, Solaris, Citrix, etc, but is there a single, non-copyrighted, non-trademarked term describing all systems that are based on or function like Unix? Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "Software is like sex; it's better mailto:gsutter@pobox.com when it's free." -- Linus Torvalds http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 14: 6:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF7B11D5A for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:04:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09093; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:26:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902240626.WAA09093@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass Cc: Narvi , Mark Ovens , dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:01:50 MST." <4.1.19990223140048.04015de0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:26:21 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I mean if big companies can steal code from each other whats going to prevent something like Microsoft who at least in a couple of incidents have been proven in court "stealing" code . If only the GPL could license "thought:" or ideas we could actually move closer to "1984". Cheers, Amancio > At 10:54 PM 2/23/99 +0200, Narvi wrote: > > >c) What's the reason? MS can always hire n more programmers to write the > >exact same code without major delay. > > Not only that: They can clean-room it, which is easier if the code is > subtle. The GPL isn't any protection at all from a big company. It > only hurts SMALL independent developers. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 14: 7:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796101175C for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:04:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA80882; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:57:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902240357.TAA80882@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jack Velte" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: RealNetworks releases Linux content tool In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 23 Feb 1999 08:32:06 EST." <001d01be5f31$dbb71e80$6a6c4cd1@jackv.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:57:56 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just pestered them for a FreeBSD version given that realnetwork stuff was developed on FreeBSD platforms. Their market-heads probably will respond by saying that there is no FreeBSD market and thats where YOU come in by showing interest on a native FreeBSD version of their product for both client and servers. If YOU don't ask RealNetworks for a native FreeBSD binaries it will never happen. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 14:16:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C8F3122F9 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:12:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14180; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:04:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd014111; Wed Feb 24 12:04:11 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03910; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:41:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902241841.LAA03910@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:41:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hamilton@pobox.com, dyson@iquest.net, marko@uk.radan.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902240334.WAA12374@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Feb 23, 99 10:34:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > (This was meant to be a humorous commentary on those who believe in the > notion of social engineering, an example of such would be GPL and the GNU > manifesto.) Or the US Constitution, or the Magna Carta. Social engineering is not inherently evil. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 14:16:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A326911F79 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:12:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA13139; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 12:02:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd013071; Wed Feb 24 12:02:03 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03866; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:39:30 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902241839.LAA03866@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act To: hamilton@pobox.com (Jon Hamilton) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:39:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: marko@uk.radan.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990224013736.4C84946381@pobox.com> from "Jon Hamilton" at Feb 23, 99 07:37:36 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > From the FSF perspective, _free_ refers to freedom, not to price. The correct word for this is "liberty", not "freedom". The use of "free" is because the antecedant to "liberty" that bears the same relationship as "free" does to "freedom" is "liberated". The phrase "liberated software" stikes too close to the truth of the matter in its connotations, even if its denotation is correct. As in "John Dillinger liberated the money from the bank", or "The libertines attacked once again, but the duly elected governemnt sent soldiers in to protect the lives of the peace loving citizenry". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 14:16:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from couatl.uchicago.edu (couatl.uchicago.edu [128.135.21.64]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21CC211D43 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:13:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sfarrell@couatl.uchicago.edu) Received: (from sfarrell@localhost) by couatl.uchicago.edu (8.9.2/8.9.0) id IAA57885; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:19:42 -0600 (CST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: bsd dying according to os counter? From: stephen farrell Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 24 Feb 1999 08:19:42 -0600 Message-ID: <87g17v51fl.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu> Lines: 14 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.42/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to this counter, bsd is losing market share on the net rapidly... http://leb.net/hzo/ioscount/ http://leb.net/hzo/ioscount/data/r.9901.txt can this be accurate? -- Steve Farrell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 14:20:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FAE0115EA for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:16:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA26134; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:16:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990224151431.03fc7c40@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:16:31 -0700 To: Gregory Sutter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Generic Unix term? In-Reply-To: <19990223200542.L27934@orcrist.mediacity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Generix? ;-) --Brett At 08:05 PM 2/23/99 -0800, Gregory Sutter wrote: >There's BSD, Linux, AIX, SCO, Solaris, Citrix, etc, but is there a >single, non-copyrighted, non-trademarked term describing all systems >that are based on or function like Unix? > >Greg >-- >Gregory S. Sutter "Software is like sex; it's better >mailto:gsutter@pobox.com when it's free." -- Linus Torvalds >http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ >PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 14:51:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quark.ChrisBowman.com (crbowman.erols.com [209.122.47.155]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496A411061 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:51:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Received: from fermion (fermion.ChrisBowman.com [10.0.1.2]) by quark.ChrisBowman.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA26677; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:53:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from crb@ChrisBowman.com) Message-Id: <199902242253.RAA26677@quark.ChrisBowman.com> X-Sender: crb@quark X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.1 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:48:10 -0500 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: "Christopher R. Bowman" Subject: Re: Some Tuesday levity Cc: Greg Skafte , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <65754.919817032@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:43 PM 2/23/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> The organization is like a tree full of monkeys, all on different limbs >> at different levels, some climbing up, some fooling around some >> simply just idling. >> >> The monkeys on top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. >> The monkeys on the bottom look up and see nothing but assholes. > >Man, that sure describes the FreeBSD Project in a nutshell! :-) > >I need that on a poster. > >- Jordan Perhaps this ought to go into the fortune file? -------- Christopher R. Bowman crb@ChrisBowman.com http://www.ChrisBowman.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 16: 5:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8CB14CFA for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:04:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00465 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:03:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:03:14 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What happened? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can someone located at Walnut Creek tell us what happened, why we lost freebsd.org for so long? Just this once, maybe the reply *ought* to be crossposted a little? ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 17:24:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A8A114C32 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:24:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA28218; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:24:06 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990224181938.03fe05b0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:23:59 -0700 To: stephen farrell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: bsd dying according to os counter? In-Reply-To: <87g17v51fl.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Queso is so inaccurate that it isn't worth considering. Note that the percentage of "unrecognized" hosts is 21% all by itself, and that they don't include any metric of how accurate their count is. --Brett At 08:19 AM 2/24/99 -0600, stephen farrell wrote: > >According to this counter, bsd is losing market share on the net >rapidly... > >http://leb.net/hzo/ioscount/ > >http://leb.net/hzo/ioscount/data/r.9901.txt > >can this be accurate? > >-- > >Steve Farrell > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 17:49:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DDEFB14C43 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:49:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 14569 invoked from network); 24 Feb 1999 03:34:23 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 24 Feb 1999 03:34:23 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA12374; Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:34:16 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199902240334.WAA12374@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-Reply-To: <19990224022856.5B1E046381@pobox.com> from Jon Hamilton at "Feb 23, 99 08:28:56 pm" To: hamilton@pobox.com (Jon Hamilton) Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 22:34:16 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, marko@uk.radan.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > In message <199902240159.UAA04909@y.dyson.net>, "John S. Dyson" wrote: > } Jon Hamilton said: > } > > } > > } > From the FSF perspective, _free_ refers to freedom, not to price. > } > > } > } presume their funds come from donations from the likes of Red Hat, > } > } Cygnus etc.? > } > > } > They also sell documentation, source tapes, consulting, and take > } > donations. > > } I want the freedom to have a free copy of their documentation, source > } tapes and consulting... > > I want lots of things, but that doesn't mean that I can demand that > people give them to me free. > > You chopped off the bit where Mark wrote that it sounded like a contradiction > for an enterprise representing *free* software to have lots of money. > All I'm saying is that when they say *free* they don't mean price. > While I disagree with their agenda, I do think it's important to at least > try to accurately represent it rather than spreading inaccurate information. > I was merely trying to correct what appeared to be a misinterpretation. > I guess what I was trying to say is that it would improve dissemination of information and improve freedom. I mean, all we would be doing is creating servitude for a few, to educate alot of people. :-). The sum total of freedom would be tremendously increased. (This was meant to be a humorous commentary on those who believe in the notion of social engineering, an example of such would be GPL and the GNU manifesto.) John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 18:37:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D407114BEF for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:37:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id TAA29072; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:37:01 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990224192004.03fc8450@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:35:38 -0700 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today, a client asked me if I would install the commercial version of Tripwire on his FreeBSD server, which had been compromised and needed a thorough cleaning. I browsed Tripwire's Web site and then called to confirm what appeared to be true: Tripwire has no implementation for FreeBSD. They support Solaris and Red Hat Linux, period -- and are working on an NT port. The person who answered the phone said that he doubted there would ever be an implementation for FreeBSD because "no one uses it." When I pointed out that FreeBSD's estimated user base is two thirds that of Linux, and that large companies like Yahoo! use Linux, he said, "Well, I'm sorry, but we haven't even considered doing a port because we don't believe there's any demand." (Translation: an operating system that doesn't get a lot of press is assumed not to be in demand.) Given that, I think that FreeBSD's profile needs a considerable boost. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 19: 2:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell6.ba.best.com (shell6.ba.best.com [206.184.139.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B2F214BE7 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:02:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkb@shell6.ba.best.com) Received: (from jkb@localhost) by shell6.ba.best.com (8.9.3/8.9.2/best.sh) id TAA09496; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:01:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <19990224190103.A8308@best.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:01:03 -0800 From: "Jan B. Koum " To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD References: <4.1.19990224192004.03fc8450@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990224192004.03fc8450@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:35:38PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:35:38PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Today, a client asked me if I would install the commercial version of > Tripwire on his FreeBSD server, which had been compromised and needed a > thorough cleaning. I browsed Tripwire's Web site and then called to confirm > what appeared to be true: Tripwire has no implementation for FreeBSD. They > support Solaris and Red Hat Linux, period -- and are working on an NT port. > > The person who answered the phone said that he doubted there would ever be > an implementation for FreeBSD because "no one uses it." When I pointed out > that FreeBSD's estimated user base is two thirds that of Linux, and that > large companies like Yahoo! use Linux, he said, "Well, I'm sorry, but we > haven't even considered doing a port because we don't believe there's any > demand." (Translation: an operating system that doesn't get a lot of press > is assumed not to be in demand.) > > Given that, I think that FreeBSD's profile needs a considerable boost. > > --Brett Glass > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message This simply means BSD has better security then Solaris, Linux and NT. -- Yan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 19: 6:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5EC5A14C81 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:06:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id VAA21222; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:08:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:08:13 -0600 (CST) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Gregory Sutter Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Generic Unix term? In-Reply-To: <19990223200542.L27934@orcrist.mediacity.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Gregory Sutter wrote: > There's BSD, Linux, AIX, SCO, Solaris, Citrix, etc, but is there a > single, non-copyrighted, non-trademarked term describing all systems > that are based on or function like Unix? Although I kinda like Brett's Generix suggestion, I've always used the word UN*X to denote a non-specific UNIX-like operating system. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 19:36:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC0D14CD3 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:35:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA26212; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:04:47 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA04312; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:04:45 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990225140444.I52343@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:04:44 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD References: <4.1.19990224192004.03fc8450@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990224192004.03fc8450@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 07:35:38PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 24 February 1999 at 19:35:38 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Today, a client asked me if I would install the commercial version of > Tripwire on his FreeBSD server, which had been compromised and needed a > thorough cleaning. I browsed Tripwire's Web site and then called to confirm > what appeared to be true: Tripwire has no implementation for FreeBSD. They > support Solaris and Red Hat Linux, period -- and are working on an NT port. > > The person who answered the phone said that he doubted there would ever be > an implementation for FreeBSD because "no one uses it." When I pointed out > that FreeBSD's estimated user base is two thirds that of Linux, You probably lost him at this point. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 19:41:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8FBC14CD4 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:41:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20299; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:41:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd020279; Wed Feb 24 20:41:02 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA22559; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:40:53 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902250340.UAA22559@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:40:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990225140444.I52343@lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Feb 25, 99 02:04:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The person who answered the phone said that he doubted there would ever be > > an implementation for FreeBSD because "no one uses it." When I pointed out > > that FreeBSD's estimated user base is two thirds that of Linux, > > You probably lost him at this point. Yeah. Just say it's 66% of Linux's installed base. Let him use the estimate for Linux to inflate FreeBSD's figures, since there's really no count of the Linux installed base, other than estimates. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 19:43:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8F5614CB5 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 19:43:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA26286; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:12:56 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA10963; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:12:56 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990225141255.L52343@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:12:55 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: stephen farrell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: bsd dying according to os counter? References: <87g17v51fl.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <87g17v51fl.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu>; from stephen farrell on Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 08:19:42AM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 24 February 1999 at 8:19:42 -0600, stephen farrell wrote: > > According to this counter, bsd is losing market share on the net > rapidly... > > http://leb.net/hzo/ioscount/ > > http://leb.net/hzo/ioscount/data/r.9901.txt > > can this be accurate? For those who can't be bothered to look, here's the table: Host OS recognized (grouped, sorted) 09/98 %recog 01/99 %recog +/-% ------------------------------------ ------- ------ ------- ------ ---- 1.( ) Linux 223441 27.6 287093 30.8 +3.2 2.( 4.) Solaris/SunOS 109579 13.5 178350 19.1 +5.6 3.( 2.) Windows 95/98/NT 190726 23.6 171829 18.4 -5.2 4.( 3.) BSD Family 170228 21.0 150961 16.2 -4.8 5.( ) IRIX 43987 5.4 52941 5.7 +0.3 6.( 7.) AIX 15132 1.9 17362 1.9 0.0 7.( 6.) Mac/Apple 15929 2.0 16170 1.7 -0.3 8.(10.) Reliant Unix/Sinix 4242 0.5 12848 1.4 +0.9 9.( 8.) HPUX 13530 1.7 10416 1.1 -0.6 10.( 9.) Digital Unix 4922 0.6 5016 0.5 -0.1 11.( ) SCO Unix 3268 0.4 3787 0.4 0.0 12.( ) Novel Netware 2726 0.3 3656 0.4 +0.1 ----------- ------ ---- ----- ----- ++checksums 797710 98.6 910429 97.6 According to this table, Microsoft NT is taking an even bigger hit, while Solaris has the largest gain. These jumps don't seem plausible. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 20: 8: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E48CD14CF9 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:08:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA00205; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:07:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990224210345.03fdd100@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:06:06 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <19990225140444.I52343@lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990224192004.03fc8450@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990224192004.03fc8450@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:04 PM 2/25/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >You probably lost him at this point. > >Greg Why? Oh, and I also pointed out that Solaris was BSD-derived; the code for Solaris might even compile as-is. This didn't seem to impress them. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 20: 9: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1382F14D0F for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:08:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA00208; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:07:42 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990224210648.03fcf670@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:07:38 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902250340.UAA22559@usr07.primenet.com> References: <19990225140444.I52343@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:40 AM 2/25/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> > The person who answered the phone said that he doubted there would ever be >> > an implementation for FreeBSD because "no one uses it." When I pointed out >> > that FreeBSD's estimated user base is two thirds that of Linux, >> >> You probably lost him at this point. > >Yeah. > >Just say it's 66% of Linux's installed base. I don't get it. Why would a percentage be any different than a fraction? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 20:15:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AEFE14C11 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:15:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA26606; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:45:28 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA26119; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:45:27 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990225144526.A26110@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:45:26 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD References: <4.1.19990224192004.03fc8450@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990224192004.03fc8450@mail.lariat.org> <19990225140444.I52343@lemis.com> <4.1.19990224210345.03fdd100@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990224210345.03fdd100@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:06:06PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 24 February 1999 at 21:06:06 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 02:04 PM 2/25/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> You probably lost him at this point. > > Why? If you don't know now, telling you won't help. > Oh, and I also pointed out that Solaris was BSD-derived; the code > for Solaris might even compile as-is. This didn't seem to impress > them. Nor should it. He was probably thinking of Solaris 2, which is based on System V. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 20:22:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBECF14CAC for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:22:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id WAA01795; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:21:32 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990224222131.J596@futuresouth.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:21:31 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Brett Glass , Terry Lambert , Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD References: <19990225140444.I52343@lemis.com> <199902250340.UAA22559@usr07.primenet.com> <4.1.19990224210648.03fcf670@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990224210648.03fcf670@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:07:38PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:07:38PM -0700, a little birdie told me that Brett Glass remarked > At 03:40 AM 2/25/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >> > The person who answered the phone said that he doubted there would ever be > >> > an implementation for FreeBSD because "no one uses it." When I pointed out > >> > that FreeBSD's estimated user base is two thirds that of Linux, > >> > >> You probably lost him at this point. > > > >Yeah. > > > >Just say it's 66% of Linux's installed base. > > I don't get it. Why would a percentage be any different than a fraction? Because after rounding, 2/3 becomes 67%, which is more ;-) --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 20:26: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5F814D00 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:25:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA12611; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:25:40 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990224232539.A8410@netmonger.net> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:25:39 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: bsd dying according to os counter? Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <87g17v51fl.fsf@couatl.uchicago.edu> <19990225141255.L52343@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19990225141255.L52343@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:12:55PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:12:55PM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 24 February 1999 at 8:19:42 -0600, stephen farrell wrote: > > > > According to this counter, bsd is losing market share on the net > > rapidly... [...] > > According to this table, Microsoft NT is taking an even bigger hit, > while Solaris has the largest gain. These jumps don't seem plausible. It is human nature to want a simple summarization.. a table with simple numbers saying up and down by such and such percent. Often, as in this case, all of the messy details that have been removed in the production of the table mean that the table alone is useless. If you refer to the description of how this survey is conducted, with particular emphasis on what changed between the last run and this run, you will see what happened. It does tell us something, but it's not the something that is implied. -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 20:26: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BCE814CCF for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:25:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (allenc.verinet.com [199.45.180.181]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id VAA06030; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:25:18 -0700 Received: from verinet.com (struct. [192.168.1.3]) by struct. (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA00761; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:25:11 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Message-ID: <36D4D0A7.A1CA0E81@verinet.com> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:25:11 -0700 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.7-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD References: <199902250340.UAA22559@usr07.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > The person who answered the phone said that he doubted there would ever be > > > an implementation for FreeBSD because "no one uses it." When I pointed out > > > that FreeBSD's estimated user base is two thirds that of Linux, > > > > You probably lost him at this point. > > Yeah. > > Just say it's 66% of Linux's installed base. > > Let him use the estimate for Linux to inflate FreeBSD's figures, since > there's really no count of the Linux installed base, other than estimates. Red Hat is saying ten million according to Bob Young during a CNN interview aired tonight. Prior to that, the oft quoted number was seven million. Total guesswork. Why not eleven million? Fifteen? Who could possibly contradict him with any more credibility? -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 21: 5:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 165B914DA6 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:03:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA71336; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:01:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902250501.VAA71336@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Terry Lambert Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:40:52 GMT." <199902250340.UAA22559@usr07.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:01:38 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And if anyone else is interested on Tripwire now is a good time to ask for a native Freebsd port also if the phone sales jerk refuses to acknowledge FreeBD just simply ask for his manager don't arque with the front - line guy for most likely they act like untelligent automatas --- I was going say intelligent automata however in the case of TripWire most likely the term does not apply Cheers, Amancio > > > The person who answered the phone said that he doubted there would ever be > > > an implementation for FreeBSD because "no one uses it." When I pointed out > > > that FreeBSD's estimated user base is two thirds that of Linux, > > > > You probably lost him at this point. > > Yeah. > > Just say it's 66% of Linux's installed base. > > Let him use the estimate for Linux to inflate FreeBSD's figures, since > there's really no count of the Linux installed base, other than estimates. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 21:20:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0C96014E2E for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:20:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 12449 invoked from network); 25 Feb 1999 05:20:09 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 25 Feb 1999 05:20:09 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id AAA08064; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:20:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902250520.AAA08064@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-Reply-To: <199902241841.LAA03910@usr04.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Feb 24, 99 06:41:44 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:20:09 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, hamilton@pobox.com, dyson@iquest.net, marko@uk.radan.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert said: > > (This was meant to be a humorous commentary on those who believe in the > > notion of social engineering, an example of such would be GPL and the GNU > > manifesto.) > > Or the US Constitution, or the Magna Carta. > > Social engineering is not inherently evil. > Lately it seems to have been. We have a good framework now, and more engineering seems to be more restrictions. If there was no contract now, then engineering might be a good thing, but I sure wouldn't trust our current group of politicians. I also wouldn't often trust programmers with a very specific and narrow minded agendas being predominant social engineers. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 21:26:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB13014D0E for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:26:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id WAA01033; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:26:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990224222503.03fd09e0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:25:48 -0700 To: Amancio Hasty , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902250501.VAA71336@rah.star-gate.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:01 PM 2/24/99 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: >And if anyone else is interested on Tripwire now is a good time to ask for a >native Freebsd port Can we marshal an effort to do this? They're at http://www.tripwiresecurity.com/. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 23: 5:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE5EE14C48 for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:05:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id XAA11258; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:04:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:04:56 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Allen Campbell Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990224230455.A11162@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <199902250340.UAA22559@usr07.primenet.com> <36D4D0A7.A1CA0E81@verinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <36D4D0A7.A1CA0E81@verinet.com>; from Allen Campbell on Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:25:11PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:25:11PM -0700, Allen Campbell wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > > The person who answered the phone said that he doubted there would ever be > > > > an implementation for FreeBSD because "no one uses it." When I pointed out > > > > that FreeBSD's estimated user base is two thirds that of Linux, > > > > > > You probably lost him at this point. > > > > Yeah. > > > > Just say it's 66% of Linux's installed base. > > > > Let him use the estimate for Linux to inflate FreeBSD's figures, since > > there's really no count of the Linux installed base, other than estimates. > > Red Hat is saying ten million according to Bob Young during a CNN > interview aired tonight. Prior to that, the oft quoted number was seven > million. Total guesswork. Why not eleven million? Fifteen? Who could > possibly contradict him with any more credibility? Read his paper on estimating the installed base of Linux. It's pure hand waving. I suspect that Bob Young did not take statistics in University. I did and if I had turned in work like that I would have flunked. If he can say 10 million then I can say the installed base of FreeBSD is 6 million. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Feb 24 23:11:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FBAA14C9A for ; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:11:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA74172; Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:09:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902250709.XAA74172@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), toor@dyson.iquest.net, hamilton@pobox.com, marko@uk.radan.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:20:09 EST." <199902250520.AAA08064@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:09:07 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hush, I heard that the so called social politicians are now placing illegal taps on e-mail lists! Time To Relax Dude Amancio > Terry Lambert said: > > > (This was meant to be a humorous commentary on those who believe in the > > > notion of social engineering, an example of such would be GPL and the GNU > > > manifesto.) > > > > Or the US Constitution, or the Magna Carta. > > > > Social engineering is not inherently evil. > > > Lately it seems to have been. We have a good framework now, and more > engineering seems to be more restrictions. > > If there was no contract now, then engineering might be a good thing, > but I sure wouldn't trust our current group of politicians. I also > wouldn't often trust programmers with a very specific and narrow > minded agendas being predominant social engineers. > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 0:20:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flatline.laser.dsi.unimi.it (flatline.laser.dsi.unimi.it [149.132.132.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F5D314CCE for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:19:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@laser.dsi.unimi.it) Received: (qmail 14353 invoked by uid 1001); 25 Feb 1999 08:19:10 -0000 Message-ID: <19990225081910.14352.qmail@flatline.laser.dsi.unimi.it> From: "Marco Molteni" Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:19:10 +0100 (CET) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: ANNOUNCE: FreeBSD mailing lists in italian MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [english translation at bottom of document] Ciao a tutti, volevo informarvi che ho appena configurato due mailing lists in italiano su FreeBSD (ma volentieri possono diventare su *BSD): * freebsd-announce@laser.dsi.unimi.it moderata, aperta a tutti, per informare sugli eventi piu' importanti di FreeBSD in Italia (es: seminari) e nel mondo (es: problemi di sicurezza, nuove releases) * freebsd-questions@laser.dsi.unimi.it non moderata, aperta a tutti, per formulare domande e ricevere risposte _in italiano_ ;-) Per iscriversi basta mandare una mail (il body vuoto, conta solo l'indirizzo nel To:) a: * freebsd-announce-subscribe@laser.dsi.unimi.it * freebsd-questions-subscribe@laser.dsi.unimi.it ----------------------------------------------------------------------- English translation: Hi all, this is to inform you of the availability of two mailing lists in italian regarding FreeBSD (no problem to talk about *BSD too): * freebsd-announce@laser.dsi.unimi.it moderated, open to all, to inform about important events regarding FreeBSD in Italy (eg seminars) and in the world (eg security problems, new releases) * freebsd-questions@laser.dsi.unimi.it not moderated, open to all, to make questions and get answers _in italian_ ;-) To subscribe send an email (empty body, only the address in the To: header matters) to: * freebsd-announce-subscribe@laser.dsi.unimi.it * freebsd-questions-subscribe@laser.dsi.unimi.it --------- Cheers Marco Molteni --- Laboratorio sicurezza e reti Dipartimento di Scienze dell'Informazione, Universita' di Milano To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 0:29:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6699F14C09 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:29:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem02.masternet.it [194.184.65.12]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA01800; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:28:24 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990225093300.00952d10@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:37:08 +0100 To: "Marco Molteni" From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: FreeBSD mailing lists in italian Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19990225081910.14352.qmail@flatline.laser.dsi.unimi.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09.19 25/02/99 +0100, you wrote: >this is to inform you of the availability of two mailing lists in >italian regarding FreeBSD (no problem to talk about *BSD too): Great :-) We have another in italian too, since more than an year at freebsd@masternet.it. It is the offical Mailing list of our user group ... A small group, indeed , but very active :-) Italian language preferred, even if english is ok ... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 0:56:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF95914CBF for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:56:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id CAA14102; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:55:22 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990225025522.G3203@futuresouth.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:55:22 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Michael C. Vergallen" , Yev Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: resizing partitions? References: <36D4C713.C7AE0C24@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Michael C. Vergallen on Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 06:26:39AM +0100 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moving to -chat, this could be an interesting thread but it's not -stable fodder] On Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 06:26:39AM +0100, a little birdie told me that Michael C. Vergallen remarked > I personally use : > > / 100MB > /swap 2x actual memory upto max off 256MB > /var 200MB > /usr 1600MB > /home 100MB per user > /usr/local rest of disc [Generally good rationale snipped] My take: Obviously, it matters a lot what this is for... production server looks a lot different than my workstation, which looks a lot different than Joe Blow's I-wanna-learn-FreeBSD system. Here's what I tend towards for a generic system: / 40-200 megs (depending on space avail.) swap at least twice physical, up to some utterly insane maximum (I always prefer to overdo swap. Disk is cheap, better safe than sorry) /var Generally left on / unless it's REALLY gonna get traffic /home Often (Joe Blow's machine case) symlinked to /usr/home /usr Everything else That's a good basic config that gives you room to grow, without too many restrictions, but still with segmentation. On some smaller systems, I stick var -> /usr/var as well. I practically always, except in severe cases, have a seperate / and /usr. /home on a vast number of systems (unless they're explicitly 'lots of people login directly' machines) goes under /usr nicely and uses space more efficiently. Swap. You can NEVER have enough swap. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER!!!! This machine has 128 meg of RAM. (ttyp1):{1715}% pstat -s Device 1024-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/wd0s1b 131072 94872 36136 72% Interleaved /dev/wd2s1b 131072 94772 36236 72% Interleaved /dev/sd1s1b 262144 95168 166912 36% Interleaved /dev/sd0s1b 262144 94836 167244 36% Interleaved Total 786176 379648 406528 48% I remember thinking 'hehehe, maybe someday I'll go completely nuts and use 64 meg of swap space'. Joke woulda been on me if I hadn't overplanned, eh? ;> Source/make world stuff. On most machines, I install src/sys. Generally, I handle {build|install}world's from a central machine (this workstation, in this case) with seperate async,noatime /usr/src and /usr/obj to really go nuts. Production servers are a completely different story of course. News has a seperate (ccd) /usr/local/news. Web server has a /usr/local/www or the like. Mail server has a /mail. Any machine that serves as a 'lots of people login to me' has a seperate /home. And so on... But the above general idea works pretty well for most non-specific systems, with hard drive space from 100 megs to perhaps 3-4 gigs; beyond that, you will want to segment more, of course. /usr/obj is particularly nice to seperate; newfs is a lot faster than (rm -rf ; chflags -R ; rm -rf). My $0.02. --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 1:37:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18FDA14CC5 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:37:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id KAA67721; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:37:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: "Michael C. Vergallen" , Yev , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: resizing partitions? References: <36D4C713.C7AE0C24@ix.netcom.com> <19990225025522.G3203@futuresouth.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 Feb 1999 10:37:03 +0100 In-Reply-To: "Matthew D. Fuller"'s message of "Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:55:22 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 28 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" writes: > [lots of stuff about fs size deleted] > Swap. You can NEVER have enough swap. NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER!!!! True. This machine (my home box) is a P166 with 128 MB RAM: des@niobe ~% df Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/da0s1a 63503 19268 39155 33% / /dev/da0s1f 254063 205366 28372 88% /usr /dev/da0s1d 2402674 742333 1468128 34% /home /dev/da0s1e 63503 17463 40960 30% /var /dev/da0s1g 508143 326826 140666 70% /usr/local /dev/da0s1h 508143 311239 156253 67% /usr/src procfs 4 4 0 100% /proc /dev/da1s1f 765665 580032 124380 82% /home/ncvs des@niobe ~% swapinfo Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/da0s1b 524288 13640 510648 3% Interleaved /dev/da1s1b 262144 13648 248496 5% Interleaved Total 786432 27288 759144 3% Some of the partition names look weird (da1s1f with no da1s1e) because I've been known to relabel "live" disks. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 1:42:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 062DF14D3D for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 01:42:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA07009; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:41:46 +0200 (EET) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:41:46 +0200 (EET) From: Narvi To: Mark Ovens Cc: Brett Glass , dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL and the Robinson-Patman Act In-Reply-To: <19990223222829.D216@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 23 Feb 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: [snip] > > b) An easy case would also be an easy case in the court more likely than > > not. > > It seems from where I'm sitting that it takes no less than the US > govt. to bring M$ to heel. > Well, OK, they would settle out of court pretty quickly. After all there is no scarcity of cases when they have been caught, challenged and they have caved in. [snip] > > -- > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov > _______________________________________________________________ > Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK > CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry > mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 3:54:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED27214D32 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:54:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id UAA03842; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:50:28 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36D538C4.EE2D93C3@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:49:24 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dom Mitchell Cc: Konstantin Chuguev , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ELF default format vs. a.out default binary name References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dom Mitchell wrote: > > On 23 February 1999, Konstantin Chuguev proclaimed: > > Just curious: if ELF is the default binary file format now, then why gcc > > still produces a.out file by default? > > > > Well, I know, I've changed the reason and the consequence, so it's a > > kind of joke :-) > > Well: > > It'd confuse people who aren't used to it. > > It didn't happen the last time a binary format change happened > (COFF on SysV?). > > It's still Assembler OUTput. > > The Union Of Pixies raised an objection claiming racism. As long as the gnomes stay out of the discussion, we ought to be safe. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "To make it absolutely clear: you stand on the wrong end of my blasters, so you better get lost before I start target practice!" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 5:11:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E12B114D7D for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 05:10:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id OAA74706; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:10:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD References: <19990225140444.I52343@lemis.com> <4.1.19990224210648.03fcf670@mail.lariat.org> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 25 Feb 1999 14:10:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Wed, 24 Feb 1999 21:07:38 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 03:40 AM 2/25/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > that FreeBSD's estimated user base is two thirds that of Linux, > > > You probably lost him at this point. > > Just say it's 66% of Linux's installed base. > I don't get it. Why would a percentage be any different than a fraction? Any marketroid can understand percentages, but for fractions you need to know how to count. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 10:43:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D87514DD4 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:43:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03975; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:42:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: John Baldwin Cc: "Joe \"Marcus\" Clarke" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, William Lloyd Subject: Re: 3.1 Release splash image In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 24 Feb 1999 18:11:09 EST." Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:42:41 -0800 Message-ID: <3969.919968161@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to -chat this thread has long since departed the realm of -stable] This sort of begs the question - who wants to take on the job of collecting all these splash screen bitmaps, along with the instructions on how to use them, and get it into a central web page which we can point to and/or merge at www.freebsd.org? There certainly seems to be a demand, and rather than have to point people to 47 different URLS.... :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 11:43:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CA8D14DEB for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:43:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12684; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA25169; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:43:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3969.919968161@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:43:09 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: 3.1 Release splash image Cc: William Lloyd , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, "\"Joe \\\"Marcus\\\" Clarke\"" , John Baldwin Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > [redirected to -chat this thread has long since departed the realm of > -stable] > > This sort of begs the question - who wants to take on the job of > collecting all these splash screen bitmaps, along with the > instructions on how to use them, and get it into a central web page > which we can point to and/or merge at www.freebsd.org? There > certainly seems to be a demand, and rather than have to point people > to 47 different URLS.... :-) > > - Jordan I've already started an effort: check out http://www.baldwin.cx/splash/ There's much room for improvement, so please give me some feedback. --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 12: 5: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F3814E48 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:04:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.48]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA17994; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:50:14 -0500 Message-ID: <36D58D89.3B46A2EA@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:51:05 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: gummibear@we.mediaone.net Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Drivers and Stuff References: <3.0.6.32.19990221222916.0079fbb0@we.mediaone.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have been monitoring them for some time: http://www.sco.com/udi/ The project is still active, but somewhat slow. They are about to release the first version of the specification but it seems to me like most of the discussion is going on in a closed group of UNIX vendors. They haven't mentioned when an implementation will be available. Pedro. gummibear@we.mediaone.net wrote: > > I was wondering... What ever happened to that Uniform Driver thing that SCO > was proposing? Don't remember correctly if they were the ones that > actually had anything to do with it, but I think it was a deal that brought > the idea of having a uniform method of writing device drivers for "Unix" > and "Unix-like" operating systems. Did this die out? Just wondering.. > > Joey > > ================================================================ > Joey Bear Garcia > Downey, CA > bear@pacificnet.net > ================================================================ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 12:12:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F46C14EEA for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:12:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id NAA08531; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:11:56 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990225130843.0403ddd0@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:11:50 -0700 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Sm@rt Reseller review features many Linuxes, no FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/infopack/0,5483,387506,00.html Sm@rt Reseller states that Linux is "the best Windows file server" and "the Web server's choice." (See the links in the sidbar.) It ignores the existence of FreeBSD altogether. I feel that it also gives the impression of "cheerleading" for Linux rather than considering all of the alternatives to NT in a thoughtful manner. I think that this warrants some tactful advocacy. It makes sense to respond to the authors of this article by pointing out that FreeBSD is better at both functions, and that sites such as CDROM.COM and Yahoo have chosen it over Linux for their production servers. It may pay to mention that FreeBSD doesn't share some of the problems of the Linux distributions they tested -- including ones they rated highly. The article says, "In our tests, we found, for example, that OpenLinux couldn't find our Intel EtherExpress Pro/100B network interface card and none of the three could locate our EtherExpress Pro/10+ cards." FreeBSD's driver for the EtherExpress Pro/100 series is about the best there is anywhere; it's what CDROM.COM's FTP server uses to set records. It's also worth pointing them to commercial support options for FreeBSD, which can be found at http://www.freebsdmall.com/ Finally, it's worth pointing out that resellers can provide unique customization for FreeBSD without releasing the source code that provides value added. This cannot be done with Linux. For all of these reasons, it's important to advocate FreeBSD via the "Talkback" at the bottom of the article and directly, via e-mail, to all of Sm@rt Reseller's editors. If you're a reseller, your opinion will probably be given greater consideration. [Disclaimer: Until January, I wrote a Q&A column for Sm@rt Reseller. However, I was never on staff and don't have any more influence on editorial policy than any reader.] --Brett Glass P.S.: In deference to the wishes of Jordan and others, I'm not crossposting this, but I am putting a separate copy of it on each of two lists -- chat and advocacy -- because advocacy seems to be somewhat sparsely populated. -BG To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 12:58:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDCEB14E0C for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:57:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id VAA02996 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:57:33 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id DD3ED8832; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:39:17 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:39:17 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: resizing partitions? Message-ID: <19990225213917.A12515@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <36D4C713.C7AE0C24@ix.netcom.com> <19990225025522.G3203@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 10:37:03AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5084 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Dag-Erling Smorgrav: > True. This machine (my home box) is a P166 with 128 MB RAM: K6-200, 128 MB RAM. My home machine too. 2x 4 GB + 1x 2 GB. 207 [21:35] roberto@keltia:~> df Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Mounted on /dev/da0s2a 25247 19693 3535 85% / /dev/da0s2e 199631 135783 63848 68% /usr /dev/da1s1a 199631 73033 110628 40% /var /dev/da1s1e 808583 441054 302843 59% /usr/local /dev/da0s2f 501231 375403 85730 81% /opt /dev/da0s2g 399287 252165 115180 69% /users /dev/da1s1f 384943 143155 210992 40% /news /dev/da0s2h 698831 431006 211919 67% /src /dev/da1s1d 1031919 579152 370214 61% /spare [CVS tree] /dev/da0s2d 851149 419316 363742 54% /work /dev/da2s1e 1975955 1238452 579427 68% /ftp /dev/da1s1g 1585547 1 1458703 0% /z procfs 4 4 0 100% /proc /dev/da0s1 207648 161056 46592 78% /dos/c /dev/da0s5 1159872 714944 444928 62% /dos/d 207 [21:36] roberto@keltia:~> pstat -sk Device 1K-blocks Used Avail Capacity Type /dev/da0s2b 131072 384 130560 0% Interleaved /dev/da1s1b 131072 320 130624 0% Interleaved /dev/da2s1b 122880 256 122496 0% Interleaved Total 384640 960 383680 0% -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 3.0-CURRENT #69: Mon Jan 18 02:02:12 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 13:15:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3892914E72 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:15:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA25138; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:15:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd025120; Thu Feb 25 14:15:02 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16959; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:15:01 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902252115.OAA16959@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:15:01 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990224210648.03fcf670@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 24, 99 09:07:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> > The person who answered the phone said that he doubted there > >> > would ever be an implementation for FreeBSD because "no one > >> > uses it." When I pointed out that FreeBSD's estimated user > >> > base is two thirds that of Linux, > >> > >> You probably lost him at this point. > > > >Yeah. > > > >Just say it's 66% of Linux's installed base. > > I don't get it. Why would a percentage be any different than a fraction? My original complaint was that you used the word "estimated". But to answer the question, why is $49.95 ten dollars cheaper than $50.00? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 13:39:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E893014DBB for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 13:39:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA09506; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:38:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990225143722.03fcbf10@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:38:41 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902252115.OAA16959@usr09.primenet.com> References: <4.1.19990224210648.03fcf670@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:15 PM 2/25/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >My original complaint was that you used the word "estimated". Well, Linux's installed base is "estimated" as well. No one knows how big it is, or isn't. >But to answer the question, why is $49.95 ten dollars cheaper than $50.00? Hmmm. Does 2/3 seem smaller than 66%? Not to me.... But then, maybe I'm too mathematically minded. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 14:12:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 512C314E15 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:12:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.46]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA18734; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:10:15 -0500 Message-ID: <36D5CA8A.AE2E9A55@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:11:22 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Drivers and Stuff References: <3.0.6.32.19990221222916.0079fbb0@we.mediaone.net> <36D58D89.3B46A2EA@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There is an announcement on SCO's site: http://www.sco.com/press/releases/1999/6846.html "Also today, Project UDI announced intentions by member companies to provide reference implementations and sample drivers to accompany the upcoming 1.0 specification release. These reference implementations include: a Linux reference port developed by Intel, a UnixWare 7 reference port developed by SCO, and an HP-UX reference port developed by Hewlett-Packard, along with a sample 100Base-T NIC driver from Interphase Corporation and a SCSI driver from Adaptec. These reference ports and sample drivers will assist other system vendors and IHVs to implement UDI-based products for their customers." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 14:14:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C02414E5B for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10G92z-0005rQ-00; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:14:22 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id WAA03547; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:13:29 GMT Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA00456; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:11:16 GMT (envelope-from marko) Message-ID: <19990225221115.B293@localhost> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:11:15 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: John Baldwin , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: William Lloyd , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, "Joe \\Marcus\\ Clarke\"" Subject: Re: 3.1 Release splash image References: <3969.919968161@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from John Baldwin on Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:43:09PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 02:43:09PM -0500, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 25-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > This sort of begs the question - who wants to take on the job of > > collecting all these splash screen bitmaps, along with the > > instructions on how to use them, and get it into a central web page > > which we can point to and/or merge at www.freebsd.org? There > > certainly seems to be a demand, and rather than have to point people > > to 47 different URLS.... :-) > > I've already started an effort: check out http://www.baldwin.cx/splash/ > > There's much room for improvement, so please give me some feedback. > Excellent John. I've bookmarked it. Just waiting for my 3.1 CDs to arrive :-). Well, I guess I'll have to try to create one myself, I've got a couple of ideas. > --- > > John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ > PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 14:25:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6D9A14D74 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:25:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA00741; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:48:39 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd000689; Thu Feb 25 15:48:30 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20308; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:24:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902252224.PAA20308@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:24:46 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990225143722.03fcbf10@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 25, 99 02:38:41 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >My original complaint was that you used the word "estimated". > > Well, Linux's installed base is "estimated" as well. No one knows how > big it is, or isn't. Marketing lesson #1: "Estimated" -- bad. "Bald-ass statement that may not be true" -- good. Exercise: Read an article extolling the virtues of something with which you are more familiar than the reporter. Count the relative number of estimates vs. bald-ass statements. > >But to answer the question, why is $49.95 ten dollars cheaper than $50.00? > > Hmmm. Does 2/3 seem smaller than 66%? Not to me.... But then, maybe I'm > too mathematically minded. Marketing lesson #2: Any percentage greater than 59% is "almost as much", while any fraction is smaller than one. Exercise: Ask a non-techincal person whether they would like 3/17 of as a raise, or a full 15% raise. Don't let them use a calculator or a pen and paper. Alternate exeercise: Instead of a raise, ask them if they prefer a coupon for 3/17ths off or 15% off some item. Marketing lesson #3: Ending numbers have the following collation sequence: 1 < 3 < 5 < 2 < 4 < 7 < 8 < 9 < 6 < 0 Exercise: Go through a Sears catalog or a Sharper Image store. For every item, write down the ending two digits of the price. Make a graph of the frequency count. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 14:54:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A940314E27 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:54:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA01786; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:23:05 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA07430; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:22:22 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990226092222.K431@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:22:22 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Allen Campbell Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD References: <199902250340.UAA22559@usr07.primenet.com> <36D4D0A7.A1CA0E81@verinet.com> <19990224230455.A11162@ontario.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990224230455.A11162@ontario.mooseriver.com>; from Josef Grosch on Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 11:04:56PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 24 February 1999 at 23:04:56 -0800, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Wed, Feb 24, 1999 at 09:25:11PM -0700, Allen Campbell wrote: >> Terry Lambert wrote: >>> >>>>> The person who answered the phone said that he doubted there would ever be >>>>> an implementation for FreeBSD because "no one uses it." When I pointed out >>>>> that FreeBSD's estimated user base is two thirds that of Linux, >>>> >>>> You probably lost him at this point. >>> >>> Yeah. >>> >>> Just say it's 66% of Linux's installed base. >>> >>> Let him use the estimate for Linux to inflate FreeBSD's figures, since >>> there's really no count of the Linux installed base, other than estimates. >> >> Red Hat is saying ten million according to Bob Young during a CNN >> interview aired tonight. Prior to that, the oft quoted number was seven >> million. Total guesswork. Why not eleven million? Fifteen? Who could >> possibly contradict him with any more credibility? > > Read his paper on estimating the installed base of Linux. It's pure hand > waving. I suspect that Bob Young did not take statistics in University. I > did and if I had turned in work like that I would have flunked. > > If he can say 10 million then I can say the installed base of FreeBSD is 6 > million. In fact, I made an estimate a while ago. It went something like this: 1. We have 20,000 registered FreeBSD users. 2. It's difficult to say how many people register, since there is no requirement to do so. It could be as low as 0.1% of users. 3. This would imply that there could be up to 20,000,000 users of FreeBSD. This is a best-case estimate. 4. Let's split the difference and say 10,010,000 users. This means that we have 10,000 users more than Linux :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 15:34:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A6914E81 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:34:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id AAA25356 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:34:06 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10G7e4-000WyfC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:44:32 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD Date: 25 Feb 1999 21:44:29 +0100 Message-ID: <7b4cnd$csh$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <19990225140444.I52343@lemis.com> <4.1.19990224210345.03fdd100@mail.lariat.org> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > Oh, and I also pointed out that Solaris was BSD-derived; the code > for Solaris might even compile as-is. Solaris (without an explicit version number the name is generally understood to refer to Solaris 2.x aka SunOS 5.x) is SVR4-derived. If you ever had the misfortune to have to use Solaris, you should have noticed quickly that it isn't close to BSD at all. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de >H Deutsche Transhumanismus-Mailingliste echo 'subscribe trans-de' | mail majordomo@lists.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 15:34:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8786C14E48 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:34:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id AAA25359 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:34:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10G9Do-000WyfC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:25:32 +0100 (CET) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: If Brett only knew... Date: 25 Feb 1999 23:25:29 +0100 Message-ID: <7b4ikp$d26$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Over on debian-devel they're debating a potential Debian GNU/FreeBSD project. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de >H Deutsche Transhumanismus-Mailingliste echo 'subscribe trans-de' | mail majordomo@lists.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 15:48:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 643A114EAD for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:48:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA11145; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:47:43 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990225164531.0401b440@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:47:42 -0700 To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... In-Reply-To: <7b4ikp$d26$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, now I know. All I can say is that this shows the "greed" of the very people who claim that commercial software developers are greedy. They will have licensing problems, of course, since major parts of FreeBSD are licensed under the original Berkeley license with the advertising clause. They can't use that code and license it under the GPL. Nor can they link it to GPLed code. --Brett At 11:25 PM 2/25/99 +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote: >Over on debian-devel they're debating a potential Debian GNU/FreeBSD >project. > >-- >Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de > >H Deutsche Transhumanismus-Mailingliste > echo 'subscribe trans-de' | mail majordomo@lists.rhein-neckar.de > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 15:48:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from control.colossus.dynip.com (206-18-112-12.la.inreach.net [206.18.112.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D9C14DDB for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:48:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr@control.colossus.dynip.com) Received: (from dburr@localhost) by control.colossus.dynip.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA12473 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:48:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dburr) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:48:24 -0800 (PST) Organization: Computer Help From: Donald Burr To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux Expo anyone? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeah, I know, I said the dreaded "L" word, but surely there will be SOME people from the FreeBSD crowd in attendance (you know what they say, "study your enemy" and all that) (at the very least, surely Walnut Creek will be having a booth since they sell Linux cd's too...) So I'd kinda like to meet some of the people behind the names. Maybe we could have a "FreeBSD Dinner" or somesuch? Also - I'm trying to make arrangements to stay with a friend of mine, but those might fall through. Is anyone willing to split the costs of a hotel/motel/whatever room? Look forward to meeting you folks! --- Donald Burr | PGP: Your *NEW* WWW HomePage: http://more.at/dburr/ ICQ #16997506 | right to Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 15:51:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67DAE14EB0 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:51:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id QAA11197; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:50:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990225164934.03ed3360@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:50:45 -0700 To: Donald Burr , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Linux Expo anyone? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I will be in town and will visit the show. (I could use a FreeBSD T-shirt to wear on that trip, if I can find out how to get one.) Yes, I'd be interested in meeting folks for lunch or dinner. How about Pho? --Brett At 03:48 PM 2/25/99 -0800, Donald Burr wrote: >Yeah, I know, I said the dreaded "L" word, but surely there will be SOME >people from the FreeBSD crowd in attendance (you know what they say, >"study your enemy" and all that) (at the very least, surely Walnut Creek >will be having a booth since they sell Linux cd's too...) > >So I'd kinda like to meet some of the people behind the names. Maybe we >could have a "FreeBSD Dinner" or somesuch? > >Also - I'm trying to make arrangements to stay with a friend of mine, but >those might fall through. Is anyone willing to split the costs of a >hotel/motel/whatever room? > >Look forward to meeting you folks! >--- >Donald Burr | PGP: Your >*NEW* WWW HomePage: http://more.at/dburr/ ICQ #16997506 | right to >Address: P.O. Box 91212, Santa Barbara, CA 93190-1212 | 'Net privacy. >Phone: (805) 957-9666 FAX: (800) 492-5954 | USE IT. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 16: 5:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A639214E44; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:04:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01874; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:04:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:04:08 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: chat@freebsd.org, hackers@freebsd.org Subject: FUNY Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey all.... just a reminder that tomorrow night we will be holding a meeting of the FreeBSD Users of New York at the Bombay Palace at 30 West 52nd Street. (btwn 5th and 6th) We will meet for socialization around 7:30 with business to be attended to around 8:15-8:30. Reservations are under my name. Hope to see you all (the NYC people) there! -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking Remark made by Bertrand Meyer (inventor of the Eiffel language) at a panel discussion at OOPSLA '89: "COBOL programmers are destined to code COBOL for the rest of their lives, and thereafter." ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 16:27:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (castles204.castles.com [208.214.165.204]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 889F114E4D for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:27:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Received: from dingo.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by dingo.cdrom.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA02823; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:22:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@dingo.cdrom.com) Message-Id: <199902260022.QAA02823@dingo.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Licia Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Donating Copyrights? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 22 Feb 1999 11:48:12 CST." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:22:07 -0800 From: Mike Smith Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > A thread I've seen elsewhere caused me to begin wondering, is there some > sort of process, program, etc for people to donate the copyrights of various > things to the FreeBSD project if they wish to? You can assign the copyright of anything you create to another entity simply by listing that entity as the copyright owner when you produce it. Eg. list "FreeBSD Inc." as the copyright owner in the standard BSD copyright text. See lots of NetBSD code for how they do this. -- \\ Sometimes you're ahead, \\ Mike Smith \\ sometimes you're behind. \\ mike@smith.net.au \\ The race is long, and in the \\ msmith@freebsd.org \\ end it's only with yourself. \\ msmith@cdrom.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 16:53:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5960614E4E for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:53:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA11895; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:53:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990225172551.04025880@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:53:08 -0700 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: GNU/FreeBSD? Not by that name Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just scanned the Debian mailing list threads regarding their interest in creating what they are calling "Debian GNU/FreeBSD". Contrary to my initial concerns, at least some of the people who are proposing such an effort have an honest desire to develop something good, as opposed to GPL-izing or sabotaging FreeBSD. However, the FreeBSD community should not give its blessing or support to such a project unless two simple conditions are met. These conditions would avoid problems with "religious wars" and/or with code being licensed in a way which violated the authors' wishes. First, FreeBSD Inc. should not allow the use of the FreeBSD trademark if the resulting product were called "GNU/FreeBSD." The name "GNU/FreeBSD" would imply that Richard Stallman and the FSF, which continue to disparage the various BSD efforts, were somehow responsible for the project and/or "came first." (The "GNU/Linux" moniker, IMHO, represents Richard Stallman's attempt to jump in front of the open source parade and claim that he is leading it and dictates the rules for it.) Second, the licensing of code from FreeBSD (or enhancements to FreeBSD) under the GPL would defy the wishes of many, if not most, contributors to the project. As Jordan so eloquently puts it in the FreeBSD Handbook: "The goals of the FreeBSD Project are to provide software that may be used for any purpose and without strings attached. Many of us have a significant investment in the code (and project) and would certainly not mind a little financial compensation now and then, but we're definitely not prepared to insist on it. We believe that our first and foremost "mission" is to provide code to any and all comers, and for whatever purpose, so that the code gets the widest possible use and provides the widest possible benefit. This is, I believe, one of the most fundamental goals of Free Software and one that we enthusiastically support." Unlike the FSF, the Debian group DOES consider the BSD licenses to fall within its definition of "free software" (see http://www.debian.org/social_contract). In fact, they're specifically cited as acceptible to that group in Debian's "Free Software Guidelines." Therefore, there should be an agreement that enhancements to the FreeBSD code base should be licensed under a BSD license rather than the GPL. The FreeBSD trademark should not be used, and FreeBSD's Core Team should refuse to incorporate modifications from that project, unless enhancements to existing FreeBSD code were licensed under a BSD license. BSDI should take a similar stance with regard to the use of the trademark "BSD," especially since it would not want to be precluded, by the GPL, from incorporating some of the code in its own products. On the other hand, contributions and improvements made under a BSD license should be warmly welcomed. If these two conditions were met, I think it might be not only feasible but beneficial to have a "Debian FreeBSD" or a "Debian BSD." Just my 2 cents. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 17:20:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 325F714E62 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:20:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA02660; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:50:35 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA44314; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:50:28 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990226115028.P431@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:50:28 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... References: <7b4ikp$d26$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <4.1.19990225164531.0401b440@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990225164531.0401b440@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 04:47:42PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 25 February 1999 at 16:47:42 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 11:25 PM 2/25/99 +0100, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > >> Over on debian-devel they're debating a potential Debian GNU/FreeBSD >> project. > > Well, now I know. I'm surprised you didn't before. I forwarded a thread a few days ago, and we discussed it at some length. > All I can say is that this shows the "greed" of the very people who > claim that commercial software developers are greedy. I see you're focussing on the positive side of things. > They will have licensing problems, of course, since major parts of > FreeBSD are licensed under the original Berkeley license with the > advertising clause. They can't use that code and license it under > the GPL. Nor can they link it to GPLed code. Oh yes, I forgot. That's why we had to develop our own compilers. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 17:33: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 763C514E5C for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:33:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-15-141.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.15.141]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA28553; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:32:48 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA52038; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:32:38 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199902260132.TAA52038@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Igor Roshchin Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: David Kelly Subject: Re: FreeBSD [3.1] is Unix ??? (Was: Re: 3.1 Release splash image) In-reply-to: Message from Igor Roshchin of "Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:08:25 CST." <199902252308.RAA22574@alecto.physics.uiuc.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:32:38 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (moved to -chat) Igor Roshchin writes: > > In reality FreeBSD is a true blue-blood Un*x system, traceable to the > > origins of Unix. [...] > > I know what FreeBSD is, and I refer to it as "Unix" between my > friends/colleagues and myself. However, if technically speaking it > is not Unix (TM) according to the current definition, - > it should not be called that way either on the official web-page, or > on the logo-s. That's why I spelled it "Un*x". And apparently a splash screen author did the same. In the past others have named their product, "Xinu" (Unix spelled backwords) to avoid the trademark issue. One thing about a trademark, if its used generically, and widely, and not actively defended by the trademark owners, then the courts will not honor the trademark and it reverts to the public domain. But first somebody has to get sued and fight back. I don't know anybody looking for a fight. Certainly not myself. "Unix" is a term widely used these days in context not refering to the trademark owner's property. One would stand a good chance of winning. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 17:33:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89E8914EFE for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:33:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-15-141.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.15.141]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA24346; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:33:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA52046; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:33:02 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199902260133.TAA52046@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD In-reply-to: Message from Greg Lehey of "Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:22:22 +1030." <19990226092222.K431@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:33:02 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > In fact, I made an estimate a while ago. It went something like this: > > 1. We have 20,000 registered FreeBSD users. > 2. It's difficult to say how many people register, since there is no > requirement to do so. It could be as low as 0.1% of users. > 3. This would imply that there could be up to 20,000,000 users of > FreeBSD. This is a best-case estimate. > 4. Let's split the difference and say 10,010,000 users. > > This means that we have 10,000 users more than Linux :-) 1. There are 2.5 computers in my office at work. SGI O2, Irix 6.5.2 P-133, FreeBSD 2.2.8 P-200, Win95 2. The Win95 machine only counts as half because its used less than the others and turned on less than half the time. 3. Conclusion: FreeBSD and Irix have the same market share. 4. Said market share is twice that of Windows. 5. The above is not an estimate. Its hard fact, in my office FreeBSD has twice the market share as Windows. Or at worst, equal. 6. Linux has zero market share in my office. Therefore there must be infinitly more FreeBSD systems than Linux systems. Anybody else an AIRHead? http://www.improbable.com/ -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 17:35:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA6C414EE0 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:35:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA12361; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:35:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990225183253.03ed1640@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:35:03 -0700 To: Greg Lehey , Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... In-Reply-To: <19990226115028.P431@lemis.com> References: <4.1.19990225164531.0401b440@mail.lariat.org> <7b4ikp$d26$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <4.1.19990225164531.0401b440@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:50 AM 2/26/99 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> They will have licensing problems, of course, since major parts of >> FreeBSD are licensed under the original Berkeley license with the >> advertising clause. They can't use that code and license it under >> the GPL. Nor can they link it to GPLed code. > >Oh yes, I forgot. That's why we had to develop our own compilers. Non sequitur. The use of GCC does not involve relicensing code that was licensed under a Berkeley license under the GPL. And since the runtime libraries used in FreeBSD are not GPLed, it doesn't involve linking one with the other. Also see my subsequent message. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 17:46:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2B614E97 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:45:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-15-141.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.15.141]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA28101; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:45:24 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA53780; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:45:22 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199902260145.TAA53780@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD In-reply-to: Message from Brett Glass of "Wed, 24 Feb 1999 22:25:48 MST." <4.1.19990224222503.03fd09e0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:45:21 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > At 09:01 PM 2/24/99 -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > >And if anyone else is interested on Tripwire now is a good time to ask for a > >native Freebsd port > > Can we marshal an effort to do this? They're at http://www.tripwiresecurity.c om/. Why? What does the commercial version of tripwire have over the free version? And of that, what's so terribly hard to implement? Checking their homepage there is mention of deficiencies in Tripwire 1.2: http://www.tripwiresecurity.com/products/ASR1_3.html Naming, "Tripwire v1.3 Academic Source Release" sounds much like something "for educators only" but it appears one would have to download it to find out. Clicking on download it asks me to register without telling me what I'm registering for or what they will do with this registration information. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 17:57:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 024BE14E43 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:57:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA23801; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:57:25 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd023791; Thu Feb 25 18:57:19 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA11483; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:57:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902260157.SAA11483@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:57:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990225164531.0401b440@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 25, 99 04:47:42 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, now I know. All I can say is that this shows the "greed" > of the very people who claim that commercial software developers > are greedy. No it doesn't, not if you jump in and stop them. Besides which, their ability to do this is predicated on the license that we chose intentionally to allow people to do this. More power to them. > They will have licensing problems, of course, since major parts > of FreeBSD are licensed under the original Berkeley license with > the advertising clause. They can't use that code and license > it under the GPL. Nor can they link it to GPLed code. The intent is to take as much of the user space as possible from the Debian stuff to make it Debian "branded", from the question that was poseted to advocacy by one of the people involved. In any case, the agregate won't be full GPL'able, and they are aware of that, and it doesn't bother them. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 18:17:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4A414E7D for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:17:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06606; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:41:00 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd006570; Thu Feb 25 19:40:55 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA13458; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:16:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902260216.TAA13458@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD [3.1] is Unix ??? (Was: Re: 3.1 Release splash image) To: dkelly@hiwaay.net (David Kelly) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 02:16:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: igor@physics.uiuc.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902260132.TAA52038@nospam.hiwaay.net> from "David Kelly" at Feb 25, 99 07:32:38 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > One thing about a trademark, if its used generically, and widely, and > not actively defended by the trademark owners, then the courts will not > honor the trademark and it reverts to the public domain. But first > somebody has to get sued and fight back. I don't know anybody looking > for a fight. Certainly not myself. > > "Unix" is a term widely used these days in context not refering to the > trademark owner's property. One would stand a good chance of winning. The BSDI/UCB vs. USL "shooting war" started over the UNIX trademark. Some idiot marketeer at BSDI decided to get the BSDI ordering number to spell "1-800-ITS-UNIX". This woke up the lawyers. BSDI was a small company, and so they immediately bent over for USL. But it was too late; the lawyers were awake. Filing lawsuits is like eating potato chips. You can't stop at just one. USL filed against BSDI for infringement of trade secrets. Theoretically, if they're that soft a touch, you can make them go away before they become a market threat. BSDI claimed "Net/2 + proprietary to BSDI enhancements". To get a larger player involved, they screamed "Due Dilligence!". And pointed to UCB. UCB was named as co-defendant. USL didn't want this, it was only interested in competition quashing. But now it had to cross the T's and dot the I's. So it did. When the dust settled, Linux had had FUD going for it for so long that it was out in front, and BSD has been fighting the FUD ever since. Let the lawyers sleep, or when the dust settles you'll find that you are running after Linux AND Microsoft. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 18:37:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [156.153.255.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00F5B14E83; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:37:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from piet@cup.hp.com) Received: from hpfsvr02.cup.hp.com (root@hpfsvr02.cup.hp.com [15.28.74.198]) by palrel1.hp.com (8.8.6/8.8.5tis) with ESMTP id SAA04939; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:37:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from piet1.sparc.engr.sgi.com (piet1.cup.hp.com [15.28.75.241]) by hpfsvr02.cup.hp.com with SMTP (8.8.6/8.7.3 TIS Messaging 5.0) id SAA24779; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:37:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:37:25 -0800 (PST) From: Piet Delaney Message-Id: <199902260237.SAA24779@hpfsvr02.cup.hp.com> To: johns@umr.edu Subject: Re: 24ibt on ZX/leo framebuffer, cg8/12, and doing kernel src debugging with kernel kgdb stub and ddd+gdb Cc: toddf@acm.org, frivara@otmcorp.com, obrien@nuxi.com, hasty@star-gate.com, piet@piet.net, piet@hpfsvr02.cup.hp.com, charleymeyer@earthlink.net, Loc.Tran@Eng.Sun.COM, netbsd-help@netBSD.Org, tech-kern@netBSD.Org, port-sparc@netBSD.Org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.Org, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.Org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.Org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi John: This afternoon I received mail from Todd Fries and he suggested touching bases with you on working on the leo driver(s). I've got a Leo and an sbus based cg8/cg12, I'll have to check which, anyway both are 24 bit true color cards and I wrote a 24 bit true color driver a while back and was wondering about helping out on one. I've got NetBSD, OpenBSD, and Linix running at home on some old SPARCstations and I'm about to install FreeBSD on an Ultra SCSI dual processor Pentium. I'd like to work on the kernel with kgdb but I've been having trouble getting the kgdb stub code linked on the OpenBSD kernel. I used something like kgdb here at HP and have used it on SunOS and Solaris (kdbx). Seems ddd on top should be no sweat. I find it hard to believe that the OpenBSD kernel hackers aren't using kgdb on OpenBSD. Worlds a bit strange. I have to admit I didn't try very hard yet; just a few hours. We really should be running the stub over it's own ethernet code and minimal hooks into the ethernet drivers. Then you can remote debug a lot of kernel bugs on system anywhere in the world; it's real slick. I was a bit impressed that microsoft releases NT with a version compiled -g on the CD for remote src level debugging. I wonder why the major UNIX corporation aren't also doing this. Seem like some lawyers told them the debugger information could be reverse engineered back into code; I really doubt that. If you have any suggestion on the true color frame buffer drivers on setting up kgdb on openbsd, I'd appreciate hearing about it. I know it works on Linux but I'm not sure abot FreeBSD. Likley still works on NetBSD but the code has changes a lot since my old NetBSD got installed. OpenBSD is running pretty good these days, I used ddd and gdb on a core file but the problem wasn't obvious other than I unpluged the scsi connector; seems it shouldn't panic. I set up kgdb on sunos over a few weekends so I doubt it will take very long. The frame buffer driver I did last took about 3 months but all I had was adb. With kgdb I'd expect we could get it working in a few weeks. -piet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 19:24:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8651914EA2 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:24:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA13363; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:24:10 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990225201741.04032520@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:24:08 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... Cc: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902260157.SAA11483@usr06.primenet.com> References: <4.1.19990225164531.0401b440@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:57 AM 2/26/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Well, now I know. All I can say is that this shows the "greed" >> of the very people who claim that commercial software developers >> are greedy. > >No it doesn't, not if you jump in and stop them. > >Besides which, their ability to do this is predicated on the license >that we chose intentionally to allow people to do this. Well, there's actually some question about whether the license DOES allow them to do this. There are two clauses in the GPL that are problematic. First, the GPL says: "This License applies to any program or other work which contains a notice placed by the copyright holder saying it may be distributed under the terms of this General Public License." None of the files in FreeBSD has such a notice. Thus, the GPL cannot be used unless the author is willing to place a notice in the code saying that he or she agrees to release it under the GPL. Second, the GPL is incompatible with the advertising clause that's on many BSD files. Finally, the names "FreeBSD" and "BSD" are trademarks. You can bet that BSDI would (justifiably) object to the use of "BSD" on GPLed code, since (a) it would be misleading and (b) they wouldn't be able to merge the changes into their own code base. Second, the FreeBSD Project should not let them use the FreeBSD mark on code that's been GPLed. It should insist that changes to the FreeBSD kernel be released under a BSD license if the mark is to be used. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 19:26:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67CCE14DC2 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:26:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id UAA13398; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:25:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990225202444.04035190@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:25:25 -0700 To: David Kelly From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902260145.TAA53780@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <4.1.19990224222503.03fd09e0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:45 PM 2/25/99 -0600, David Kelly wrote: >Checking their homepage there is mention of deficiencies in Tripwire >1.2: http://www.tripwiresecurity.com/products/ASR1_3.html > >Naming, "Tripwire v1.3 Academic Source Release" sounds much like >something "for educators only" but it appears one would have to >download it to find out. Clicking on download it asks me to register >without telling me what I'm registering for or what they will do with >this registration information. Looks like Anne Nonymous should register and download a copy. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 19:38:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AE6014EA2 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:38:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4040.ime.net [209.90.195.50]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.3/8.8.8-Loki) with ESMTP id WAA99725; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:37:39 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.2.0.25.19990225223505.03bf4d90@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.25 (Beta) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:37:19 -0500 To: Brett Glass , David Kelly From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990225202444.04035190@mail.lariat.org> References: <199902260145.TAA53780@nospam.hiwaay.net> <4.1.19990224222503.03fd09e0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:25 PM 2/25/99 , Brett Glass wrote: >At 07:45 PM 2/25/99 -0600, David Kelly wrote: > >>Checking their homepage there is mention of deficiencies in Tripwire >>1.2: http://www.tripwiresecurity.com/products/ASR1_3.html >> >>Naming, "Tripwire v1.3 Academic Source Release" sounds much like >>something "for educators only" but it appears one would have to >>download it to find out. Clicking on download it asks me to register >>without telling me what I'm registering for or what they will do with >>this registration information. > >Looks like Anne Nonymous should register and download a copy. ;-) Privacy statement: In the following survey, we ask for your name and other information only for purposes of corresponding with you about your ideas on improving the Tripwire line of products. We do not sell, trade, or disclose any of this information to any other party (except to law enforcement upon presentation of a valid subpoena). Looks like it does to me. http://www.tripwiresecurity.com/cgi-bin/transfer.cgi?prod=ids1.3unix.tar.gz [Source] Here you go. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP DSS/1024 Public Key ID: 0x409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 19:51: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us [169.244.111.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1059214EA7 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:50:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) Received: from celeris (56k-port4040.ime.net [209.90.195.50]) by Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us (8.9.3/8.8.8-Loki) with ESMTP id WAA99749; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:50:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from netmonger@genesis.ispace.com) X-Server-ID: Loki.orland.u91.k12.me.us, OCSNet - Orland Maine USA X-Coord-Name: Drew "Droobie" Baxter, OneNetwork Exchange X-Coord-Addr: Droobie@Openlink.orland.me.us X-Coord-Pager: USA: 207-471-2719, http://pagedroo.orland.me.us Message-Id: <4.2.0.25.19990225224837.03b6a510@genesis.ispace.com> X-Sender: netmonger@genesis.ispace.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.25 (Beta) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:49:46 -0500 To: Brett Glass , David Kelly From: Drew Baxter Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.25.19990225223505.03bf4d90@genesis.ispace.com> References: <4.1.19990225202444.04035190@mail.lariat.org> <199902260145.TAA53780@nospam.hiwaay.net> <4.1.19990224222503.03fd09e0@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:37 PM 2/25/99 , Drew Baxter wrote: >At 10:25 PM 2/25/99 , Brett Glass wrote: >>At 07:45 PM 2/25/99 -0600, David Kelly wrote: >> >>>Checking their homepage there is mention of deficiencies in Tripwire >>>1.2: http://www.tripwiresecurity.com/products/ASR1_3.html >>> >>>Naming, "Tripwire v1.3 Academic Source Release" sounds much like >>>something "for educators only" but it appears one would have to >>>download it to find out. Clicking on download it asks me to register >>>without telling me what I'm registering for or what they will do with >>>this registration information. >> >>Looks like Anne Nonymous should register and download a copy. ;-) > >Privacy statement: In the following survey, we ask for your name and other >information only for purposes of corresponding with you about your ideas on >improving the Tripwire line of products. We do not sell, trade, or disclose >any of this information to any other party (except to law enforcement upon >presentation of a valid subpoena). > >Looks like it does to me. > >http://www.tripwiresecurity.com/cgi-bin/transfer.cgi?prod=ids1.3unix.tar.gz >[Source] > >Here you go. DOH sorry. That whines bout cookies. http://www.tripwiresecurity.com/file_ftp/tripwire-1.30-1.tar.gz There ya go :) Sorry bout that. --- Drew "Droobie" Baxter Network Admin/Professional Computer Nerd(TM) OneEX: The OneNetwork Exchange, Bangor Maine USA http://www.droo.orland.me.us PGP DSS/1024 Public Key ID: 0x409A1F7D To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 19:59: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 679A714DD6 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:58:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA20497; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:58:27 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:58:27 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Mike Smith Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Donating Copyrights? In-Reply-To: <199902260022.QAA02823@dingo.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Mike Smith wrote: > > A thread I've seen elsewhere caused me to begin wondering, is there some > > sort of process, program, etc for people to donate the copyrights of various > > things to the FreeBSD project if they wish to? > > You can assign the copyright of anything you create to another entity > simply by listing that entity as the copyright owner when you produce > it. Eg. list "FreeBSD Inc." as the copyright owner in the standard BSD > copyright text. See lots of NetBSD code for how they do this. > Hmm, but what if that entity doesn't -want- the copyright, and does not want their name/trademarks/etc associated with it? :) I was asking more about some sort of review/permission process :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 22:44: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 409AB14EC2 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:43:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA05271; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:43:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd005255; Thu Feb 25 23:43:36 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA21693; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:43:32 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902260643.XAA21693@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:43:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990225201741.04032520@mail.lariat.org> from "Brett Glass" at Feb 25, 99 08:24:08 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Besides which, their ability to do this is predicated on the license > >that we chose intentionally to allow people to do this. > > Well, there's actually some question about whether the license > DOES allow them to do this. There are two clauses in the GPL > that are problematic. First, the GPL says: You are missing the point. They are not GPL'ing FreeBSD code, they are merely proposing to create a product that is an agregate of a UCB licensed kernel and such necessary UCB licensed user space tools as are required, with the rest of the user space made up of the "standard Debian user space"... which, itself, contains some code under licenses other than GPL, as well. Then they are proposing naming the thing GNU/FreeBSD (or GNU/BSD, so they can take NetBSD's pieces for other platforms not supported by FreeBSD) to give it a Debian "brand identity". Repeat, "GNU/BSD", *NOT* "GPL/BSD". > Finally, the names "FreeBSD" and "BSD" are trademarks. You can > bet that BSDI would (justifiably) object to the use of "BSD" on > GPLed code, since (a) it would be misleading and (b) they wouldn't > be able to merge the changes into their own code base. The "BSDI" trademark is defensible. The "BSD" trademark is not defensible, since there have been "Berkeley Standard Distribution" releases for long before BSDI was formed, making it a term in common use prior to their trademark application. In addition (if that weren't enough) Bill Jolitz, on my recommendation, trademarked "386BSD". It was this fact that allowed him to refuse to allow FreeBSD to use the 386BSD name following Lynne's famous "One third of the patches in the patchkit are good, one third are benign and do nothing, and one third are harmful", with the implied "I'm not going to tell you which third is which". That the code was itching to be released anyway is the reason there is a FreeBSD instead of a 386BSD 3.1 today. This trademark predates the BSDI trademark application, and since it is a substring, the "BSD" trademark is invalid. If tested in court, BSDI could uphold "BSDI", but would lose "BSD", just as Coke, Inc. lost "COLA", and Microsoft lost "DOS". > Second, > the FreeBSD Project should not let them use the FreeBSD mark > on code that's been GPLed. It should insist that changes to > the FreeBSD kernel be released under a BSD license if the > mark is to be used. The code could not be released under a GPL license, since then they could not distribute a live system. There is some wiggle room (which no one need tell them about) for screwing up the licensing, and Jordan had consistently removed the advertising clause (can he legally do that?), and yes, it might be a good idea to make the UCB license "infectious" for derived works of the FreeBSD kernel, and such user space as necessary to implement functionality not available under Debian, under the agregate license to use the FreeBSD trademark. I actually don't think they'd have a problem with that, since they have a vested interest in not diverging from the main line source for the next time they revise their CDROM. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 22:46:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6397F14CCC for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:46:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA00997; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:46:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd000944; Thu Feb 25 23:46:14 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id XAA21837; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:46:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902260646.XAA21837@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Donating Copyrights? To: licia@o-o.org (Licia) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:46:13 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mike@smith.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Licia" at Feb 25, 99 09:58:27 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hmm, but what if that entity doesn't -want- the copyright, and does not want > their name/trademarks/etc associated with it? :) I was asking more about some > sort of review/permission process :) It's also a bit hard to make someone hold you harmless, as the author of the work, from damages resulting from its use, unless it's a condition of the license. Also, copyrights have to be held by humans, and assigned to legal entities, just like patents. The length of a copyright is 50 years following the death of the author. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 23: 4: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 252C514F05 for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:03:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA16222; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:03:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902260703.XAA16222@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Terry Lambert Cc: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Feb 1999 06:43:32 GMT." <199902260643.XAA21693@usr05.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:03:14 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > There is some wiggle room (which no one need tell them about) for > screwing up the licensing, and Jordan had consistently removed the > advertising clause (can he legally do that?), and yes, it might > be a good idea to make the UCB license "infectious" for derived > works of the FreeBSD kernel, and such user space as necessary to > implement functionality not available under Debian, under the > agregate license to use the FreeBSD trademark. Perhaps Jordan accidently deleted the advertisement clause , can you post a few files which contain the missing advertisement clause? Tnks, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Feb 25 23:17:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 278DD14EEF for ; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:17:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA06909; Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:15:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Terry Lambert , brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass), naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:03:14 PST." <199902260703.XAA16222@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:15:47 -0800 Message-ID: <6906.920013347@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have only, to my knowledge, removed clauses 3 and 4 from my own original work. Some others have chosen to do the same. I don't think we're talking about anyone going into code released by the U.C. Regents or the University of Utah or whatever and modifying their 4 clause copyright. That would be silly. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 0:28: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from waldorf.appli.se (waldorf.appli.se [194.198.196.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24AFB14EE4; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 00:27:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from niklas@petra.appli.se) Received: from petra.appli.se (petra.appli.se [194.198.196.24]) by waldorf.appli.se (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA00123; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:14:47 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199902260814.JAA00123@waldorf.appli.se> To: Piet Delaney Cc: johns@umr.edu, toddf@acm.org, frivara@otmcorp.com, obrien@nuxi.com, hasty@star-gate.com, piet@piet.net, piet@hpfsvr02.cup.hp.com, charleymeyer@earthlink.net, Loc.Tran@Eng.Sun.COM, netbsd-help@netBSD.Org, tech-kern@netBSD.Org, port-sparc@netBSD.Org, misc@openbsd.org, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.Org, freebsd-sparc@FreeBSD.Org, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.Org Subject: Re: 24ibt on ZX/leo framebuffer, cg8/12, and doing kernel src debugging with kernel kgdb stub and ddd+gdb In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:37:25 PST." <199902260237.SAA24779@hpfsvr02.cup.hp.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:14:47 +0100 From: Niklas Hallqvist Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 18:37:25 -0800 (PST) > From: Piet Delaney > If you have any suggestion on the true color frame buffer drivers on > setting up kgdb on openbsd, I'd appreciate hearing about it. I have KGDB in the pipe, at least for i386, should not be hard to fix for sparc. The only problem is with me getting time to test this stuff. I used the NetBSD support as a base. Most of us have developped a skill with DDB so KGDB has not been as asked for as it could be. I agree DDB is a poor substitute for KGDB though. But it works on a single machine, KGDB requires 2, so it has at least one advantage. Niklas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 1: 5:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D87DB14F17 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 01:04:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10GJBX-0003S5-00; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:03:53 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id JAA00882; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:03:09 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01434; Fri, 26 Feb 99 08:00:26 GMT Message-Id: <36D65492.142B94C9@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:00:18 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD References: <199902260133.TAA52046@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > 1. There are 2.5 computers in my office at work. > SGI O2, Irix 6.5.2 > P-133, FreeBSD 2.2.8 > P-200, Win95 > > 2. The Win95 machine only counts as half because its used less than > the others and turned on less than half the time. > But don't forget, Win95 is only half an operating system so it only really counts as a quarter ;-) -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 2: 1:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16B8414F6F for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 02:01:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA21046; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 02:00:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 02:00:48 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Mark Ovens Cc: David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990226020047.A20813@orcrist.mediacity.com> References: <199902260133.TAA52046@nospam.hiwaay.net> <36D65492.142B94C9@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <36D65492.142B94C9@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 08:00:18AM +0000 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 08:00:18AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > David Kelly wrote: > > > > 1. There are 2.5 computers in my office at work. > > SGI O2, Irix 6.5.2 > > P-133, FreeBSD 2.2.8 > > P-200, Win95 > > > > 2. The Win95 machine only counts as half because its used less than > > the others and turned on less than half the time. > > But don't forget, Win95 is only half an operating system so it only > really counts as a quarter ;-) And to think, all this time I thought it was OS/2 that was half an operating system. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 7:32:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79CFC14F15 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:32:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA22677; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:32:08 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:32:08 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: Terry Lambert Cc: mike@smith.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donating Copyrights? In-Reply-To: <199902260646.XAA21837@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Hmm, but what if that entity doesn't -want- the copyright, and does not want > > their name/trademarks/etc associated with it? :) I was asking more about some > > sort of review/permission process :) > > It's also a bit hard to make someone hold you harmless, as the author > of the work, from damages resulting from its use, unless it's a > condition of the license. > > Also, copyrights have to be held by humans, and assigned to legal > entities, just like patents. The length of a copyright is 50 years > following the death of the author. > I suppose I need to clarify more. (making a note to myself to be more complete in the future.) I was specifically asking if there is a formal or traditional procedure to be followed by individuals wishing to donate the copyright of an original work to the FreeBSD Project. I'm not asking about copyright law, but about procedures regarding donating them specifically to the FreeBSD project. As an example, if I develop an application, kernel module, bit of documentation, advocacy flyer, etc and want to donate the copyright to that material to the FreeBSD Project, does FreeBSD have an established process for handling this? [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 7:40:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E67B514F77 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:40:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09995; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:39:59 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990226103959.A8072@netmonger.net> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:39:59 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: GNU/FreeBSD? Not by that name References: <4.1.19990225172551.04025880@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990225172551.04025880@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 05:53:08PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 05:53:08PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Unlike the FSF, the Debian group DOES consider the BSD licenses to fall > within its definition of "free software" Brett, we understand that you feel hurt by the FSF and hurting them back is the only way you can currently deal with your anger, but please don't make such blatant lies. To quote a page from fsf.org: "There are many different non-copyleft free software licenses, including the X10 license, the XFree86 license, and the FreeBSD license, and the BSD (Berkeley System Distribution) license." After you get some therapy, you may want to read http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/categories.html where you can find that even the evil mind-control organization known to you as GNU doesn't mind non-GPLed software. I thought perhaps the FreeBSD community could display a more sensible, level-headed, moderate image compared to the ranting and raving of the Linux Fandom. This alone would help our PR. Unfortunately, the merest suggestion that Linux, GNU, and Richard Stallman are not our most mortal enemies results in gibbering flames from the like of Brett Glass. If we can't all get along, can't we all at least just calm down? Linux got some media attention recently, much of which was in the form of pictures of people carrying banners and picket signs and storming Microsoft headquarters. In contrast to that, if FreeBSD presents itself as a community more concerned about functionality and code correctness than in making public fools of ourselves, we can expect a positive response from many corporate sectors. -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 7:52: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE3C914F7B for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 07:52:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA18983; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:51:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990226084333.04079300@mail.lariat.org> X-Sender: brett@mail.lariat.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:51:39 -0700 To: Christopher Masto , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: GNU/FreeBSD? Not by that name In-Reply-To: <19990226103959.A8072@netmonger.net> References: <4.1.19990225172551.04025880@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990225172551.04025880@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:39 AM 2/26/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: >Brett, we understand that you feel hurt by the FSF and hurting them >back is the only way you can currently deal with your anger, Bullshit. >but >please don't make such blatant lies. To quote a page from fsf.org: > > "There are many different non-copyleft free software licenses, > including the X10 license, the XFree86 license, and the FreeBSD > license, and the BSD (Berkeley System Distribution) license." They then go on to trash the Berkeley licenses, on their Web pages and even more so at public appearances and in e-mail. >After you get some therapy, you may want to read >http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/categories.html where you can find that >even the evil mind-control organization known to you as GNU doesn't >mind non-GPLed software. After you get through with their propaganda, you may want to digest the following recent quote from RMS: >> In the GNU Project, discrimination against proprietary software is not >> just a policy--it's the principle and the purpose. Proprietary >> software is fundamentally unjust and wrong, so when we have the >> opportunity to place it at a disadvantage, that is a good thing. Stallman and Perens both brand the BSDs as "evil" because they provide help to "the enemy": commercial software. >Unfortunately, the >merest suggestion that Linux, GNU, and Richard Stallman are not our >most mortal enemies results in gibbering flames from the like of Brett >Glass. Sorry to disappoint you, but it's YOUR "gibbering flames" that are out of line. I'm merely pointing out the obvious. >If we can't all get along, can't we all at least just calm down? Again, you seem to be the one who's agitated when anyone dares to criticize the GPL zealots. I'm simply restating what they themselves have said. >Linux got some media attention recently, much of which was in the form >of pictures of people carrying banners and picket signs and storming >Microsoft headquarters. In contrast to that, if FreeBSD presents >itself as a community more concerned about functionality and code >correctness than in making public fools of ourselves, we can expect a >positive response from many corporate sectors. Perhaps you'd better stick to programming; you clearly don't know much about PR. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 8: 2:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EF2014F7B for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:02:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@mail.ucf.edu) Received: from mail.ucf.edu ([132.170.243.150]:1757 "HELO mail.ucf.edu" ident: "NO-IDENT-SERVICE") by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu with SMTP id <91738-22361>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:58:28 -0500 Received: from ucf-mc-Message_Server by mail.ucf.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:01:29 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:01:06 -0500 From: "Eric Wayte" To: , , Subject: Re: GNU/FreeBSD? Not by that name Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ouch! And I thought it was only the teenage Linuxen that went on like this! Perhaps we need another list: freebsd-flame Eric Wayte >>> Brett Glass 2/26/99 10:51:39 >>> At 10:39 AM 2/26/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: >Brett, we understand that you feel hurt by the FSF and hurting them >back is the only way you can currently deal with your anger, Bullshit. >but >please don't make such blatant lies. To quote a page from fsf.org: > > "There are many different non-copyleft free software licenses, > including the X10 license, the XFree86 license, and the FreeBSD > license, and the BSD (Berkeley System Distribution) license." They then go on to trash the Berkeley licenses, on their Web pages and even more so at public appearances and in e-mail. >After you get some therapy, you may want to read >http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/categories.html where you can find that >even the evil mind-control organization known to you as GNU doesn't >mind non-GPLed software. After you get through with their propaganda, you may want to digest the following recent quote from RMS: >> In the GNU Project, discrimination against proprietary software is not >> just a policy--it's the principle and the purpose. Proprietary >> software is fundamentally unjust and wrong, so when we have the >> opportunity to place it at a disadvantage, that is a good thing. Stallman and Perens both brand the BSDs as "evil" because they provide help to "the enemy": commercial software. >Unfortunately, the >merest suggestion that Linux, GNU, and Richard Stallman are not our >most mortal enemies results in gibbering flames from the like of Brett >Glass. Sorry to disappoint you, but it's YOUR "gibbering flames" that are out of line. I'm merely pointing out the obvious. >If we can't all get along, can't we all at least just calm down? Again, you seem to be the one who's agitated when anyone dares to criticize the GPL zealots. I'm simply restating what they themselves have said. >Linux got some media attention recently, much of which was in the form >of pictures of people carrying banners and picket signs and storming >Microsoft headquarters. In contrast to that, if FreeBSD presents >itself as a community more concerned about functionality and code >correctness than in making public fools of ourselves, we can expect a >positive response from many corporate sectors. Perhaps you'd better stick to programming; you clearly don't know much about PR. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 9: 1:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88CE14F2A for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:01:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.46]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA21123 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:57:30 -0500 Message-ID: <36D6CD66.3E0792FA@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:35:50 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... References: <199902260157.SAA11483@usr06.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I read most of the thread and I found it very interesting: - Some people think that *BSD is a dead end and that they should focus only on Linux or Hurd, others find BSD attractive. One comment that caught my attention was similar to this "Well, linux will soon be the most popular OS in the network and I don't want to be like everyone, I want to use FreeBSD and Hurd". - Most people in the Debian list want to see a mix of FreeBSD with everything they like from Linux. If they don't mess up the licensing issues, I think this can be the best that ever happened to FreeBSD. I personally believe that WC would not lose many users, but Debian could end up moving lot's of campers from Linux to FreeBSD. - I hadn't noticed how much harm OpenBSD has done to the PR with *BSD, and especially to the NetBSD guys. I used to think that FreeBSD developers were sometimes innecessarily aggressive, well after reading the Theo vs. NetBSD core team flame war, we are kittens :-). - The name is important: I hope they stay with "Debian FreeBSD". Actually, I am sure the first person to complain against a "Debian/GNU FreeBSD" would be RMS. In sum, Debian and any other distributor is welcome (All of this IMHO). Pedro. Terry Lambert wrote: > ... > > The intent is to take as much of the user space as possible from > the Debian stuff to make it Debian "branded", from the question > that was poseted to advocacy by one of the people involved. > > In any case, the agregate won't be full GPL'able, and they are > aware of that, and it doesn't bother them. > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 10:31: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.monmouth.com (shell.monmouth.com [205.231.236.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47A87150E4 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:29:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pechter@pechter.ddns.org) Received: from pechter.ddns.org (bg-tc-ppp141.monmouth.com [209.191.60.142]) by shell.monmouth.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA14839; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pechter@localhost) by pechter.ddns.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) id NAA34088; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:29:31 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from pechter) From: Bill Pechter Message-Id: <199902261829.NAA34088@pechter.ddns.org> Subject: Re: GNU/FreeBSD? Not by that name In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990226084333.04079300@mail.lariat.org> from Brett Glass at "Feb 26, 1999 8:51:39 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:29:24 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Reply-To: bpechter@shell.monmouth.com X-Phone-Number: 908-389-3592 X-OS-Type: FreeBSD 3.0-Stable X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass Said... > At 10:39 AM 2/26/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: > > >After you get some therapy, you may want to read > >http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/categories.html where you can find that > >even the evil mind-control organization known to you as GNU doesn't > >mind non-GPLed software. > > After you get through with their propaganda, you may want to digest > the following recent quote from RMS: > > >> In the GNU Project, discrimination against proprietary software is not > >> just a policy--it's the principle and the purpose. Proprietary > >> software is fundamentally unjust and wrong, so when we have the > >> opportunity to place it at a disadvantage, that is a good thing. > > Stallman and Perens both brand the BSDs as "evil" because they > provide help to "the enemy": commercial software. Brett -- he's just in denial. > >If we can't all get along, can't we all at least just calm down? This I'll agree with. GPL is a bad thing to many of us. I don't even write software for a living and I see it's restrictions on freedom. The GPL has kept a lot of stuff restricted. Right now I release my stuff the same way I did in the CP/M days. It's free in the least restrictive manor -- PUBLIC DOMAIN. Bill --- Bill Gates is a Persian cat and a monocle away from being a villain in a James Bond movie -- Dennis Miller bpechter@shell.monmouth.com|pechter@pechter.nws.net|pechter@pechter.ddns.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 10:33:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFB5A14BCF for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:33:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA23536 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:33:39 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:33:39 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: profiled 00.01 beta (an alternative to fingerd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For anyone who's interested i've hacked together a small alternative to fingerd that offers a few nifty features. It's located at : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/projects/profiled/ and is released under a berkeley style license :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 10:41:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C020A14DC2 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:41:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA15692; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:41:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:41:12 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990225164531.0401b440@mail.lariat.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Well, now I know. All I can say is that this shows the "greed" > of the very people who claim that commercial software developers > are greedy. > > They will have licensing problems, of course, since major parts > of FreeBSD are licensed under the original Berkeley license with > the advertising clause. They can't use that code and license > it under the GPL. Nor can they link it to GPLed code. As Debian is mainly concerned with packagaing and integration I don't see how their efforts would conflict with any goals that FreeBSD has. I do think that such efforts would imply a great deal of duplicated effort and that the Linux mindset might not grasp the whole 'FreeBSD as a -system- not just a kernel' but if they want to try and use as much of the GNU utils and GLIBC as possible then more power to 'em. I think if they could work with the ports people to get the features they need to run apt( I believe this is the name of the dselect replacement) against the ports tree I do believe that a number of common goals would be satisfied. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 10:47:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gte.net (1Cust70.tnt2.oxnard.ca.da.uu.net [208.252.94.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 17A5C15357 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:47:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris.holden@gte.net) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 10:47:18 -0800 From: "Chris Holden" Message-ID: To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Ooops, Typo! Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I happened upon your web site and noticed that the word "Beginning" is misspelled (you have it as "Begining"). The URL of the page is: http://cle.linux.org.tw/~mailer/freebsd-chat/msg00530.html I hope this helps. Chris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 11:46:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 557C315025 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:46:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA09283; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:45:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Licia Cc: Terry Lambert , mike@smith.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donating Copyrights? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Feb 1999 09:32:08 CST." Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:45:28 -0800 Message-ID: <9279.920058328@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm not asking about copyright law, but about procedures regarding donating > them specifically to the FreeBSD project. > > As an example, if I develop an application, kernel module, bit of > documentation, advocacy flyer, etc and want to donate the copyright to that > material to the FreeBSD Project, does FreeBSD have an established process for > handling this? The procedure is really simple - just stick a copyright something like this on it: * Copyright (c) 1995 * Joe Blow. All rights reserved. * * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions * are met: * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer, * verbatim and that no modifications are made prior to this * point in the file. * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. * * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY JOE BLOW ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS * OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED * WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE * ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL JOE BLOW OR HIS HOUSEPLANTS BE LIABLE * FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL * DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS * OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, LIFE OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT * LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF * SUCH DAMAGE. And you're done. That's literally all there is to it. You don't need to "assign the copyright away", you just need to use open licensing terms like the above for us to be entirely happy with it. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 11:49:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A1715087 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:49:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA06645; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:49:18 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:49:18 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: Christopher Masto Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: GNU/FreeBSD? Not by that name In-Reply-To: <19990226103959.A8072@netmonger.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Christopher Masto wrote: > On Thu, Feb 25, 1999 at 05:53:08PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > > Unlike the FSF, the Debian group DOES consider the BSD licenses to fall > > within its definition of "free software" > > Brett, we understand that you feel hurt by the FSF and hurting them > back is the only way you can currently deal with your anger, but > please don't make such blatant lies. To quote a page from fsf.org: > And, although I wasn;t going to say anything, hasn;t it occured to Brett that very few people agree with him here? > "There are many different non-copyleft free software licenses, > including the X10 license, the XFree86 license, and the FreeBSD > license, and the BSD (Berkeley System Distribution) license." > > After you get some therapy, you may want to read > http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/categories.html where you can find that > even the evil mind-control organization known to you as GNU doesn't > mind non-GPLed software. > > I thought perhaps the FreeBSD community could display a more sensible, > level-headed, moderate image compared to the ranting and raving of the > Linux Fandom. This alone would help our PR. Unfortunately, the > merest suggestion that Linux, GNU, and Richard Stallman are not our > most mortal enemies results in gibbering flames from the like of Brett > Glass. If we can't all get along, can't we all at least just calm down? > Seems to me its only Brett thats got his panties in a bunch over FSF, personally, I'm not a fan of Stallman, or the GPL, but I think it fairly lame that Grett feels he has to lead some kind of one man campaign against them. I mean, don;t you have better things to do with your time Brett? > Linux got some media attention recently, much of which was in the form > of pictures of people carrying banners and picket signs and storming > Microsoft headquarters. In contrast to that, if FreeBSD presents > itself as a community more concerned about functionality and code > correctness than in making public fools of ourselves, we can expect a > positive response from many corporate sectors. > -- which is one of the reasons people like us use it. looking forward to meeting with you to discuss this tonight =) -Pat > Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications > chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net > > Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 11:55: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5173914FEA for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 11:54:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA23954; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:54:28 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:54:28 -0600 (CST) From: Licia To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Terry Lambert , mike@smith.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donating Copyrights? In-Reply-To: <9279.920058328@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I'm not asking about copyright law, but about procedures regarding donating > > them specifically to the FreeBSD project. > > > > As an example, if I develop an application, kernel module, bit of > > documentation, advocacy flyer, etc and want to donate the copyright to that > > material to the FreeBSD Project, does FreeBSD have an established process for > > handling this? > > The procedure is really simple - just stick a copyright something like > this on it: > > * Copyright (c) 1995 > * Joe Blow. All rights reserved. > * > * Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without > * modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions > * are met: > * 1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright > * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer, > * verbatim and that no modifications are made prior to this > * point in the file. > * 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright > * notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the > * documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution. > * > * THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY JOE BLOW ``AS IS'' AND ANY EXPRESS > * OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED > * WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE > * ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL JOE BLOW OR HIS HOUSEPLANTS BE LIABLE > * FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL > * DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS > * OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, LIFE OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) > * HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT > * LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY > * OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF > * SUCH DAMAGE. > > And you're done. That's literally all there is to it. You don't need > to "assign the copyright away", you just need to use open licensing > terms like the above for us to be entirely happy with it. > > - Jordan > (smile) I already understood the licensing part, I was just wondering specifically about the copyright thing :) So the FreeBSD project has no interest in having copyrights donated directly to it? [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 12:46: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96A0E1500B for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:46:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA09683; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:45:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Licia Cc: Terry Lambert , mike@smith.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donating Copyrights? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:54:28 CST." Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:45:32 -0800 Message-ID: <9679.920061932@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > (smile) I already understood the licensing part, I was just wondering > specifically about the copyright thing :) So the FreeBSD project has no > interest in having copyrights donated directly to it? None whatsoever, we're only interested in being able to redistribute the bits freely. Who actually holds the copyright on them has only proven itself to be of theoretical rather than practical relevance to us in the last 5 years, and the issue is one which people generally just get emotional about when anyone's foolish enough to raise it as a point of theoretical relevance in any case. It's really just not worth thinking about. I've never tried granting the copyright to some deceased composer I respect, or perhaps a cartoon character, but both would be interesting possibilities for those looking for alternatives in copyright assignment. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 13:34:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CAEF15186 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:34:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #12) id 10GUtI-000DFV-00; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:33:48 +0000 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:33:48 +0000 From: Ben Smithurst To: Chris Holden Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ooops, Typo! Message-ID: <19990226213348.A50704@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Holden wrote: > I happened upon your web site and noticed that the word "Beginning" is > misspelled (you have it as "Begining"). The URL of the page is: > http://cle.linux.org.tw/~mailer/freebsd-chat/msg00530.html Um. Yes. That's just a message in an archive of this mailing list, hardly crucial that there's a typo in there, really. If you spot a typo on the real FreeBSD website, (that's www.freebsd.org) by all means report it to webmaster@freebsd.org, but this hardly seems relevant. -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk send a blank message to ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 13:48:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5AAB14FB5 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:48:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA16205; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:48:26 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd016180; Fri Feb 26 14:48:21 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11520; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:48:20 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902262148.OAA11520@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Donating Copyrights? To: licia@o-o.org (Licia) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:48:20 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, mike@smith.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Licia" at Feb 26, 99 09:32:08 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It's also a bit hard to make someone hold you harmless, as the author > > of the work, from damages resulting from its use, unless it's a > > condition of the license. > > > > Also, copyrights have to be held by humans, and assigned to legal > > entities, just like patents. The length of a copyright is 50 years > > following the death of the author. > > I suppose I need to clarify more. (making a note to myself to be more complete > in the future.) > > I was specifically asking if there is a formal or traditional procedure to be > followed by individuals wishing to donate the copyright of an original work to > the FreeBSD Project. > > I'm not asking about copyright law, but about procedures regarding donating > them specifically to the FreeBSD project. > > As an example, if I develop an application, kernel module, bit of > documentation, advocacy flyer, etc and want to donate the copyright to that > material to the FreeBSD Project, does FreeBSD have an established process for > handling this? See /sys/kern/kern_lockf.c. The software is contributed, and the Regents claim copyright on a derived work, which is what expresses protction for the original author. Then the holds harmless specifies "REGENTS AND CONTRIBUTORS", rather than an author. The advertising clause does likewise: * 3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software * must display the following acknowledgement: * This product includes software developed by the University of * California, Berkeley and its contributors. The lockf code in this example is from Scooter Morris at Genentech Inc. (yes, the genetic engineering company that invented Humalin). In this case, the UCB is the "deep pockets", and the original developer could claim bug introduction in the derivation process, to escape from any lawsuit. I don't know if Jordan would want to do this for FreeBSD Inc., since there would be some risk involved. It would help to have a non-profit entity, to make any potential plaintiff look like a bully to a jury. FWIW, a Subchapter S non-profit would help for tax deductability of donations. It might be time to consider a "FreeBSD Foundation, Inc.", or a "FreeBSD Institute, Inc.". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 13:55:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6267014FF1 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 13:55:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id OAA26816; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:55:20 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA23690; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:55:12 -0700 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:55:12 -0700 Message-Id: <199902262155.OAA23690@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donating Copyrights? In-Reply-To: <9679.920061932@zippy.cdrom.com> References: <9679.920061932@zippy.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > (smile) I already understood the licensing part, I was just wondering > > specifically about the copyright thing :) So the FreeBSD project has no > > interest in having copyrights donated directly to it? > > None whatsoever, we're only interested in being able to redistribute > the bits freely. That brings up something that I *just* noticed (18 months late). In /sys/kern/init_main.c (2.2.*), the following copyright appears at boot time. Copyright (c) 1992-1998 FreeBSD Inc.\n" (In -current/-stable this is in /sys/copyright.h) There are no files in the entire FreeBSD kernel distribution that are assigned to FreeBSD Inc. (which is the company you and David started if I understand things correctly). Why is this copyright there? 'wosch' added it, but I have no idea since he had no right to assign the kernel or any files to this. (Not that I care a whole lot, but it was confusing why it is there....) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 14: 6:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E65DA14EBD for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:06:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA23685; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:06:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd023659; Fri Feb 26 15:06:19 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA12640; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:06:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902262206.PAA12640@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 22:06:16 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, tlambert@primenet.com, brett@lariat.org, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <6906.920013347@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Feb 25, 99 11:15:47 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have only, to my knowledge, removed clauses 3 and 4 from my own > original work. Some others have chosen to do the same. I don't think > we're talking about anyone going into code released by the > U.C. Regents or the University of Utah or whatever and modifying their > 4 clause copyright. That would be silly. Yeah. Let me be the first to say that this is true. I was actually thinking more in terms of the agregate license, and the possibility for misinterpretation of allowing GPL'ing. The stuff that Jordan has put out is capable of being GPL'ed, unlike the stuff from CSRG. I personally disagree with putting code out under a license that allows someone to coopt it, make it still nominally liberated, and later claim that I saw a derived work, instead of independantly arriving at a soloution. It's a situation in which you can be claimed to have been "polluted" by your own source code. I understand buying into the argument about the "advertising clause". That's why there is an assignment of copyright, and a common redefinition of all but the final licensee as "and contributors". The "proliferation problem" only occurs if you specifically mention features or use of the code; in other words, only if you try to turn everything into a marketing bullet item... and if you do, the list doubles per line item only in the case that the features came from different sources. I think, therefore, that the "proliferation problem" doesn't exist, and that the correct approach to strategic limitation is to take the UCB approach, and ask for contribution of rights. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 14:20:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D167415064 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:20:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id PAA27031 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:20:31 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA23886; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:20:23 -0700 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:20:23 -0700 Message-Id: <199902262220.PAA23886@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I'm outta here In-Reply-To: <199902230448.UAA05278@kithrup.com> References: <199902230448.UAA05278@kithrup.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ Because this is -chat .... ] > Here's a clue for all the needful: anytime you need to build yourself > up by attacking some other person, entity, or project, you're along the > path of failure. I've gotta jump in here, just to get Sean's goat. :) How do you then propose we 'improve' on a person/entity/prjoject etc.., without taking a critical look at the process/code/goals. One person's attack is another person's constructive criticism. Can I not 'criticize/critique' another entities business practices with the intent on doing things differently. Or, more on a technical note, often doing things 'better' requires looking at what another person has done, and improving the things they do badly. Case in point, in a project I was working on, the previous programmer had a construct of the type (in Java). for (int i = 1; i < vector.getSize(); i++) doSomething(new Integer(vector[0]), vector[i]); Was this wrong? Of course not, but after running it through a profiler, it turns out that this code was used *ALOT*, and was a bottleneck. So, I recoded it. Integer index = new Integer(vector[0]; int size = vector.getSize(); for (int i = 1; i < size; i++) doSomething(index, vector[i]); Now, this isn't a big deal, and probably not worthy of criticism, but I have fixed *STUPID* errors in programmers, and in my position as technical lead, pointed to them the error of their ways in the vain hope that somehow this kind of dumb mistake wouldn't happen again. (Hopefully I communicate better in person than in email. ;) I see much of the discussion (if you take out some of the rhetoric and name calling) as someone's attempt to 'educate' others of the pitfalls of the GPL that occur due to idealism. Finally, just so anyone assumes I'm not revealing my bias. I do not think the GPL is evil, but neither do I think that most people who use it on their code understand the true nature of what putting their code under the GPL means. And no I won't go into details, since most of those 'reason' have already been spelled out, amidst the name-calling and other rhetoric by both sides. :) Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 15:20:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 370B315014 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:20:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA10353; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:20:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Nate Williams Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donating Copyrights? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Feb 1999 14:55:12 MST." <199902262155.OAA23690@mt.sri.com> Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:20:23 -0800 Message-ID: <10349.920071223@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > There are no files in the entire FreeBSD kernel distribution that are > assigned to FreeBSD Inc. (which is the company you and David started if > I understand things correctly). Correct. > Why is this copyright there? 'wosch' added it, but I have no idea since > he had no right to assign the kernel or any files to this. I have no idea either, perhaps because John Fieber had originally copyrighted the handbook this way (not at my urging) Wolfram saw this as a statement of general intent or something. AFAIK, the handbook and web pages have been changed to "(C) The FreeBSD Project" which doesn't actually mean anything per-se and is probably why FreeBSD, Inc. was chosen before - it seemed just a little more tangible. But it's no skin off my nose either way, that's for sure. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 15:36:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (sri-gw.MT.net [206.127.105.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9BCC1500B for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 15:35:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA27688; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:35:36 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA24415; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:35:28 -0700 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 16:35:28 -0700 Message-Id: <199902262335.QAA24415@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nate Williams , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Donating Copyrights? In-Reply-To: <10349.920071223@zippy.cdrom.com> References: <199902262155.OAA23690@mt.sri.com> <10349.920071223@zippy.cdrom.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > There are no files in the entire FreeBSD kernel distribution that are > > assigned to FreeBSD Inc. (which is the company you and David started if > > I understand things correctly). > > Correct. > > > Why is this copyright there? 'wosch' added it, but I have no idea since > > he had no right to assign the kernel or any files to this. > > I have no idea either, perhaps because John Fieber had originally > copyrighted the handbook this way (not at my urging) Wolfram saw this > as a statement of general intent or something. Ahh, that makes sense. > AFAIK, the handbook > and web pages have been changed to "(C) The FreeBSD Project" which > doesn't actually mean anything per-se and is probably why FreeBSD, > Inc. was chosen before - it seemed just a little more tangible. > > But it's no skin off my nose either way, that's for sure. So, should the copyright be updated to the project? Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 18:53:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE59415045 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:52:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-131.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.131] (may be forged)) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA09544 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:52:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA57400 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:52:12 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199902270252.UAA57400@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD In-reply-to: Message from Gregory Sutter of "Fri, 26 Feb 1999 02:00:48 PST." <19990226020047.A20813@orcrist.mediacity.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:52:12 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter writes: > On Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 08:00:18AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > But don't forget, Win95 is only half an operating system so it only > > really counts as a quarter ;-) > > And to think, all this time I thought it was OS/2 that was half an > operating system. Won't get any argument from me that Win95 is half the operating system that OS/2 is. In agreement with Mark, Win95 is only 1/4. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 18:55:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E37F150C5 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 18:55:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA09707; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:24:50 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA07368; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:24:47 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990227132446.B7279@lemis.com> Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:24:46 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett Glass , Christopher Masto , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Stallman uses FreeBSD (was: GNU/FreeBSD? Not by that name) References: <4.1.19990225172551.04025880@mail.lariat.org> <4.1.19990225172551.04025880@mail.lariat.org> <19990226103959.A8072@netmonger.net> <4.1.19990226084333.04079300@mail.lariat.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990226084333.04079300@mail.lariat.org>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 08:51:39AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 26 February 1999 at 8:51:39 -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:39 AM 2/26/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: > >> Brett, we understand that you feel hurt by the FSF and hurting them >> back is the only way you can currently deal with your anger, > > Bullshit. Right, he forgot that you also take it out on other FreeBSD people. >> but please don't make such blatant lies. To quote a page from >> fsf.org: >> >> "There are many different non-copyleft free software licenses, >> including the X10 license, the XFree86 license, and the FreeBSD >> license, and the BSD (Berkeley System Distribution) license." > > They then go on to trash the Berkeley licenses, on their Web pages > and even more so at public appearances and in e-mail. Since you mention this, here's a story from the AUUG Winter 1998 conference. I had signed up for the Emacs tutorials on the Monday, held by Stallman. When the class started, he wasn't there. I decided to go upstairs and get my laptop, and when I came down Stallman was in the foyer, looking lost. I took him to his class, where he discovered that he had left the power supply to his laptop behind. In the end, I lent him mine, running FreeBSD of course, and he held the tutorial on that. He was completely reasonable about FreeBSD ("of course, we'd prefer it to be GPL, but it's free software, and that's the important thing"). For those of you who are interested, you'll see a picture of him holding a FreeBSD CD-ROM set and talking to Peter Wemm of the FreeBSD core team at http://www.lemis.com/grog/auug98.html. To prepare for your inevitable rebuttal: yes, rms is not known for consistency. But he can show himself to be reasonable. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 20: 5:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3072B1507A for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:05:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA48489; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:02:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:02:26 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey To: Julian Elischer Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cobalt blames linux for their security problems! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Julian Elischer wrote: [moved to chat, Julian] > > > http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/18109.html > > There's a good idea.. use a free OS and then blame it for your problems.. > > BTW did I tell you about the huge security holes we got from BSD (only > kidding) Did you read the rest of that article, Julian? It's depressing when both sides get their facts *so* wrong! Either that, or the reporter *wanted* to give that impression, in order to jazz up the article. OTOH, when was the last time that you read an article in any news media at all (which was pointed at the general public, my only qualification here) that had, as it's topic, security, and *wasn't* more than 50% utter garbage? I wonder if maybe there's an article in there somewhere, on just how bad the reporting has been on that topic? ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 20:22:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C6C15098 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:21:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA94524; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:21:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902270421.UAA94524@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: David Kelly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:52:12 CST." <199902270252.UAA57400@nospam.hiwaay.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:21:14 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Huh??? Win95 a 1/2 of an OS?? Give me a break . Win95 is an app 8) Cheers, Amancio > Gregory Sutter writes: > > On Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 08:00:18AM +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > But don't forget, Win95 is only half an operating system so it only > > > really counts as a quarter ;-) > > > > And to think, all this time I thought it was OS/2 that was half an > > operating system. > > Won't get any argument from me that Win95 is half the operating system > that OS/2 is. In agreement with Mark, Win95 is only 1/4. > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 20:25:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE4215087 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:25:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@mail.ucf.edu) Received: from mail.ucf.edu ([132.170.243.150]:1155 "HELO mail.ucf.edu" ident: "NO-IDENT-SERVICE") by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu with SMTP id <91964-22362>; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:21:46 -0500 Received: from ucf-mc-Message_Server by mail.ucf.edu with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:24:38 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:24:26 -0500 From: "Eric Wayte" To: , Cc: Subject: Re: Commercial Tripwire available for Linux, not FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Win95 isn't an app - it's DOS virus! >>> Amancio Hasty 2/26/99 23:21:14 >>> >Huh??? Win95 a 1/2 of an OS?? Give me a break . Win95 is an app 8) > Cheers, > Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 20:45:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6F7AE150BC for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 20:45:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 8212 invoked from network); 27 Feb 1999 04:45:25 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 27 Feb 1999 04:45:25 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA00514; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:45:17 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199902270445.XAA00514@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... In-Reply-To: <199902260703.XAA16222@rah.star-gate.com> from Amancio Hasty at "Feb 25, 99 11:03:14 pm" To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:45:17 -0500 (EST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, brett@lariat.org, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty said: > > > > There is some wiggle room (which no one need tell them about) for > > screwing up the licensing, and Jordan had consistently removed the > > advertising clause (can he legally do that?), and yes, it might > > be a good idea to make the UCB license "infectious" for derived > > works of the FreeBSD kernel, and such user space as necessary to > > implement functionality not available under Debian, under the > > agregate license to use the FreeBSD trademark. > > Perhaps Jordan accidently deleted the advertisement clause , can you post a few > files which contain the missing advertisement clause? > Any files that I have fully authored (which isn't really very many) have a license without advertising clause. If you find my fully owned code with the clause, let me know, and I'll tell a core member to correct it. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 21: 2:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7549F150A4 for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:02:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA05955; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:01:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199902270501.VAA05955@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, brett@lariat.org, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 26 Feb 1999 23:45:17 EST." <199902270445.XAA00514@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:01:59 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tnks for reminding me I just checked the Bt848 driver to make sure that the adverisement clause was there. Tnks Again! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Feb 26 21:13:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4DE9150BC for ; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:13:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA01482; Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:04:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpdVo1480; Sat Feb 27 05:04:17 1999 Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 21:04:12 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Chuck Robey Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cobalt blames linux for their security problems! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Chuck Robey wrote: > On Fri, 26 Feb 1999, Julian Elischer wrote: > > [moved to chat, Julian] > > > > > > > http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/18109.html > > > > There's a good idea.. use a free OS and then blame it for your problems.. > > > > BTW did I tell you about the huge security holes we got from BSD (only > > kidding) > > Did you read the rest of that article, Julian? It's depressing when > both sides get their facts *so* wrong! Either that, or the reporter > *wanted* to give that impression, in order to jazz up the article. yes I did. and I was refering to the following line.. "Vivek Mehra, vice president of product development at Cobalt, said the hole, which could give a hacker access to a history file documenting a user's activities, wasn't specific to their appliance, but to the Linux operating system. " How can you blame Linux for the apparent fault? (It's not actually a problem in linux just in the configuration) It's the integrator's job to ensure that the log files aren't exposed to the web. That seems somehow to be the problem. I'm just amazed at how quickly the finger get's pointed and how the free OS is a sitting duck. It's tricky trying to think of every security flaw. I'm just crossing my fingers that WE (Whistle) will be quick off the mark when our turn comes.. > > OTOH, when was the last time that you read an article in any news media > at all (which was pointed at the general public, my only qualification > here) that had, as it's topic, security, and *wasn't* more than 50% > utter garbage? I wonder if maybe there's an article in there somewhere, > on just how bad the reporting has been on that topic? > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data > chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. > 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | > Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) > (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 27 0:55:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D9115118 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:55:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id AAA23541; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:55:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 00:55:00 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, nicole@webweaver.net, rick@hugin.imat.com, gsutter@pobox.com Subject: FreeBSD Install-A-Thon at Cow Place CANCELLED Message-ID: <19990227005459.A23491@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Due to a family emergency my wife and I have to leave for Chicago Sunday morning. Since Nicole is attending a Perl class for the next 6 weeks this left just my wife and I to run the Install-A-Thon. Sorry guys but I must be in Chicago by Monday evening. The next Install-A-Thon is on March 20th at the Oakland Convention Center. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 27 4:15:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shale.csir.co.za (shale.csir.co.za [146.64.46.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86D6015006 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 04:15:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from reg@shale.csir.co.za) Received: (from reg@localhost) by shale.csir.co.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA40800; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:14:13 +0200 (SAT) (envelope-from reg) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 14:14:13 +0200 From: Jeremy Lea To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... Message-ID: <19990227141413.E91815@shale.csir.co.za> References: <199902260157.SAA11483@usr06.primenet.com> <36D6CD66.3E0792FA@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <36D6CD66.3E0792FA@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co>; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 11:35:50AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Fri, Feb 26, 1999 at 11:35:50AM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > - Most people in the Debian list want to see a mix of FreeBSD with > everything they like from Linux. If they don't mess up the licensing > issues, I think this can be the best that ever happened to FreeBSD. I > personally believe that WC would not lose many users, but Debian could > end up moving lot's of campers from Linux to FreeBSD. My personal feeling on this is that it's a good thing, provided they don't try to mess with the licence of the FreeBSD kernel. Think about it: Linus says FreeBSD is irrelevant, and dying; but there are a noticable group of Linux users (in the Linux heartland), who think that FreeBSD's kernel is better than Linux - why else would they want to use it? That says a lot to me... and used very diplomatically, can be used for many miles of good PR. Regards, -Jeremy -- | What will people think when they hear that I'm a Jesus freak? --+-- What will people do when they find that it's true? | I don't really care if they label me a Jesus Freak, | There ain't no disguising the truth. - d c Talk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 27 7:55: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DE4A14D0F for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 07:55:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA21187; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 09:20:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd021161; Sat Feb 27 09:20:47 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id IAA27494; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 08:54:30 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199902271554.IAA27494@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: If Brett only knew... To: dyson@iquest.net Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:54:30 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hasty@rah.star-gate.com, tlambert@primenet.com, brett@lariat.org, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199902270445.XAA00514@y.dyson.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Feb 26, 99 11:45:17 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Dyson writes: > Any files that I have fully authored (which isn't really very many) have a > license without advertising clause. If you find my fully owned code with the > clause, let me know, and I'll tell a core member to correct it. Cool. Let's integrate them into Linux. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 27 10:39:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FFE150CC for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 10:39:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA00867; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:39:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:39:24 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: members@funy.org Subject: FUNY Inaugural Meeting Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well all, we had our first FreeBSD Users of New York meeting last night at the Bombay Palace at 30 West 52nd Street, Manhattan. We had a whopping 8 people! (I really didn;t expect many anyway, this was more than enough for a start) We started off by socializing, people that were there included DES (who was visiting from .no), Al Perlstein, Chris Masto, Nathan Dorfman, Jordan Coleman, Seth Bromberger, Lorraine Trause, and of course, Me. We kicked off dinner about 8:30 by ordering some kickass Indian food (and discussing the direction we should be taking... DES helped a bit with that having formed a users group back home. We decided that for now, the actual meetinsg will be dinners, and special events will be planned along side. And we have no date for the next meeting yet. (All important things are discussed over food?) We also have a website (which only includes one picture at this point) at http://www.funy.org and a mailing list (members@funy.org). If anyone wants to get on the list, email members-request@funy.org with "subscribe" in the body of the message. We will be working out the future of this group on the list =) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 27 13:18:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 900C315160 for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 13:17:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA50188; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:14:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 27 Feb 1999 16:14:27 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey To: Robert Hough Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cobalt blames linux for their security problems! In-Reply-To: <199902272008.PAA03540@zoe.iserve.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 27 Feb 1999, Robert Hough wrote: > Lots of good information here, but I got it several other places too, we > have several raq's in our office, cause their just purty. But... What > exactly does any of this have to do with FreeBSD, because this is actually > the last place I expected to see anything about hardware that is running > linux... Good point. This is the SECOND time I've redirected this to chat, for that very reason. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Feb 27 15:34: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nexus.multiweb.nl (nexus.multiweb.net [195.114.239.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 956B91508C for ; Sat, 27 Feb 1999 15:33:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mput@nexus.multiweb.nl) Received: from localhost (mput@localhost) by nexus.multiweb.nl (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA99814 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:33:35 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mput@nexus.multiweb.nl) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 00:33:34 +0100 (CET) From: Marco To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Joining maillists Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can I still join FreeBSD mail lists by using a newsreader, or can I better use my email app. This is also a test to see if it works. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message