From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 28 1:10:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73A83151F9 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 01:10:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jabley@buddha.clear.net.nz) Received: from buddha.clear.net.nz (buddha.clear.net.nz [192.168.24.106]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id WAA08886; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:09:42 +1300 (NZDT) Received: (from jabley@localhost) by buddha.clear.net.nz (8.9.2/8.9.1) id WAA57849; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:09:42 +1300 (NZDT) (envelope-from jabley) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:09:42 +1300 From: Joe Abley To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: jabley@clear.co.nz Subject: FreeBSD 2.2.8 CD in Singapore? Message-ID: <19990228220942.A57838@clear.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm in Singapore right now for Apricot, and have wound up with a laptop with a PCI/PCMCIA bridge that I CANNOT get 3.1 or CURRENT to recognise. The PAO/2.2.8 boot floppy can see it just fine, however. I don't suppose there is anybody here in town with a 2.2.8 CD about their person, or who knows where I could buy one? There's a beer in it for you :) Drop me a note if you're thirsty (or give me a ring on +65 338-8585, room 1269 - Westin Stamford). Joe To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 28 4:30:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 539A7151FD for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 04:29:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id NAA10221 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 13:29:27 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 2676E8704; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:58:07 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:58:07 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Joining maillists Message-ID: <19990228125807.A8229@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD-chat References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Marco on Sun, Feb 28, 1999 at 12:33:34AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5098 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Marco: > Can I still join FreeBSD mail lists by using a newsreader, or can I better > use my email app. You could use a mail2news gateway for that or use a threaded mail reader like Mutt or Gnus. > This is also a test to see if it works. Don't do that. Use freebsd-test instead. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #70: Sat Feb 27 09:43:08 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 28 10: 0:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay5.ftech.net (onyx.ftech.net [195.200.12.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFFBF14FF4 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 10:00:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from goddard@acm.org) Received: from ruby.ftech.net ([195.200.12.8] helo=dmg) by relay5.ftech.net with smtp (Exim 2.05ftechp2 #2) id 10HAVq-00056o-00 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 18:00:23 +0000 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990228174005.0091f180@mailgate.ftech.net> X-Sender: dmg@mailgate.ftech.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 17:40:05 +0000 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Goddard Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: FreeBSD mailing lists in italian In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990225093300.00952d10@194.184.65.4> References: <19990225081910.14352.qmail@flatline.laser.dsi.unimi.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:37 25/02/99 +0100, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: >Great :-) We have another in italian too, since more than an year at >freebsd@masternet.it. >It is the offical Mailing list of our user group ... >A small group, indeed , but very active :-) Hmmm... I signed up to the UK user group a while ago and as far as I can tell, activity here in .uk (as far as user-group stuff goes) is pretty negligible :-( Dave (yes, I know that *I* could try and do something about it ) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 28 12:49: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6041A152B5 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 12:49:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA92336; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:45:59 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 15:45:59 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey To: chris@calldei.com Cc: Julian Elischer , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cobalt blames linux for their security problems! In-Reply-To: <19990228143304.A4692@holly.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Chris Costello wrote: This is the THIRD time I've redirected this to chat ... please be reasonable and leave it that way. Remember, no one can jump on you for in chat. > On Fri, Feb 26, 1999, Julian Elischer put this into my mailbox: > > > > > > http://www.wired.com/news/news/technology/story/18109.html > > > > There's a good idea.. use a free OS and then blame it for your problems.. > > > > BTW did I tell you about the huge security holes we got from BSD (only > > kidding) > > > FreeBSD is a bad OS. This ASM code causes a memory > fault! > > .globl _start > .type start,@function > _start: > jmpl 0xffffffff > > and when I run it... > > (chris@holly) misc-> make > as -o crash.o crash.s > ld -nostdlib -o crash crash.o > strip crash > (chris@holly) misc-> ./crash > Memory fault (core dumped) > > > > > > > > julian > > > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > > > -- > Powered by FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE. "The Power to Serve!" > > In the FreeBSD handbook, on a network routing diagram, next to "Windows 95 > box," there is commented "(Do not admit to owning one.)" > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Feb 28 19:18: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EE1E151D3 for ; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 19:18:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chuckr@mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA50682; Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:16:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:16:23 -0500 (EST) From: Chuck Robey To: alexandr@mail.eecis.udel.edu Cc: The Hermit Hacker , "David O'Brien" , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: gcc In-Reply-To: <199903010309.WAA11408@earth.mat.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Feb 1999 alexandr@mail.eecis.udel.edu wrote: > In Reply to Your Message of Sun, 28 Feb 1999 20: 38:49 -0400 > Date: Sun, 28 Feb 1999 22:08:14 -0500 > From: Jerry Alexandratos > Message-ID: <199902282208.aa04295@mail.eecis.udel.edu> > > The Hermit Hacker says: > : On Sun, 28 Feb 1999, Chuck Robey wrote: > : > : > Your argument about CS students needing the better compiler was true, > : > but totally ignored the fact that getting the CS students their compiler > : > IS NOT the top priority, especially since ports can do it (did for me). > : > : Ummmm, you mis-quoted. I agree with your above, and my statement had to > : do with an inability of FreeBSD to run on the hardware that we have (IBM > : thinkpad laptops) then anything software related (other then > : kernel/driver)... > > I think I take offense to this statement. I've been running FreeBSD on > various models of StinkPads for the past two+ years. The combo works > (mostly) like a charm too. Hmmm, Jerry's taking offense at a remark sent to me, in reply to a remark that I incorrectly attributed to the wrong person. Honey, where did I leave my motion-sickness pills? The topic's been covered (slimed?) by now, so let's move this to chat (see my redirection). > > --Jerry > > 8) Jerry Alexandratos % - % "Nothing inhabits my (8 > 8) alexandr@louie.udel.edu % - % thoughts, and oblivion (8 > 8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu % - % drives my desires." (8 > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@glue.umd.edu | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 1 4:19:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from big-gw.tellique.de (big-gw.tellique.de [195.126.133.179]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7476414E33 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 04:19:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ni@tellique.de) Received: from tellique.de (nolde.tellique.de [62.144.106.52]) by big-gw.tellique.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA15168; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:19:15 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <36DA85C3.4771FEE3@tellique.de> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 13:19:15 +0100 From: Juergen Nickelsen Organization: Tellique GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: User friendly Linux Distribution Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello all, I think some of you might like to see today's "User friendly" cartoon at http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99mar/19990301.html for the benefits of having multiple Linux distributions. :-) -- Juergen Nickelsen Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25, 13355 Berlin, Germany Tel. +49 30 46307-552 / Fax +49 30 46307-579 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 1 12:42: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CE3815458 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 12:41:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.15]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA2B4; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:41:34 +0100 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon.ninth-circle.org [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA34119; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 21:42:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <36DA85C3.4771FEE3@tellique.de> Date: Mon, 01 Mar 1999 21:42:16 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Juergen Nickelsen Subject: RE: User friendly Linux Distribution Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Mar-99 Juergen Nickelsen wrote: > Hello all, > > I think some of you might like to see today's "User friendly" cartoon at > http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99mar/19990301.html for > the benefits of having multiple Linux distributions. :-) Replace Red Hat, Debian & S.u.S.E with FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD and yer having the same comic =P btw, funny thing from reading www.insecure.org/nmap, according to the OS fingerprinting www.openbsd.org ran on Solaris for a while (or still does). Now that's hypocritical *G* --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The idea does not replace the work... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 1 13:23: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wcug.wwu.edu (sloth.wcug.wwu.edu [140.160.164.200]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A722314ED1 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:23:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tcole@wcug.wwu.edu) Received: (qmail 20586 invoked by uid 1085); 1 Mar 1999 21:22:43 -0000 Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 13:22:43 -0800 From: Travis Cole To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Juergen Nickelsen , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: User friendly Linux Distribution Message-ID: <19990301132243.A18211@wcug.wwu.edu> References: <36DA85C3.4771FEE3@tellique.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:42:16PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:42:16PM +0100, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > btw, funny thing from reading www.insecure.org/nmap, according to the OS > fingerprinting www.openbsd.org ran on Solaris for a while (or still does). > Now that's hypocritical *G* Take a look at where its hosted. nslookup www.openbsd.org Name: www.openbsd.org Address: 129.128.5.191 nslookup 129.128.5.191 Name: openbsd.sunsite.ualberta.ca Address: 129.128.5.191 I think it was just the best place they could get it hosted for no cost. sunsite.ualberta.ca is also an OpenBSD cvs and ftp mirror. -- --Travis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 1 14:19:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB97715586 for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:18:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id QAA06130; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:18:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 16:18:31 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Juergen Nickelsen Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: User friendly Linux Distribution Message-ID: <19990301161831.A23366@shell.futuresouth.com> References: <36DA85C3.4771FEE3@tellique.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <36DA85C3.4771FEE3@tellique.de>; from Juergen Nickelsen on Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 01:19:15PM +0100 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 01:19:15PM +0100, a little birdie told me that Juergen Nickelsen remarked > Hello all, > > I think some of you might like to see today's "User friendly" cartoon at > http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99mar/19990301.html for > the benefits of having multiple Linux distributions. :-) I take it tomorrow they agree on FreeBSD, right? --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 1 14:23:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.93.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD84D1558B for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 14:23:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA16038; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:22:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 1999 17:22:08 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: John Baldwin Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , William Lloyd , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org, "\"Joe \\\"Marcus\\\" Clarke\"" Subject: Re: 3.1 Release splash image In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, John Baldwin wrote: > On 25-Feb-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > [redirected to -chat this thread has long since departed the realm of > > -stable] > > > > This sort of begs the question - who wants to take on the job of > > collecting all these splash screen bitmaps, along with the > > instructions on how to use them, and get it into a central web page > > which we can point to and/or merge at www.freebsd.org? There > > certainly seems to be a demand, and rather than have to point people > > to 47 different URLS.... :-) > > > > - Jordan > > I've already started an effort: check out http://www.baldwin.cx/splash/ > > There's much room for improvement, so please give me some feedback. The only sad thing is that the version number is stamped into a lot of these images. I'd like a scalable image with no version number requirement :-). Or at least, I run 4.0 on my development machines and would like a splash screen for them (especially since they are notebooks and I tend to tote them around and show them to people). Did that FreeBSD desktop theme contest ever get back off the ground? Robert N Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ Safeport Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 1 20:29: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nhj.nlc.net.au (nhj.nlc.net.au [203.24.133.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 1FAE114C3C for ; Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:27:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from john.saunders@nlc.net.au) Received: (qmail 21841 invoked by uid 1000); 2 Mar 1999 15:27:29 +1100 Date: 2 Mar 1999 15:27:29 +1100 Message-ID: <19990302042729.21840.qmail@nhj.nlc.net.au> From: "John Saunders" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: Robert Watson Subject: Re: 3.1 Release splash image X-Newsgroups: nlc.lists.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: User-Agent: tin/pre-1.4-980818 ("Laura") (UNIX) (Linux/2.0.37 (i686)) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Robert N Watson wrote: > On Thu, 25 Feb 1999, John Baldwin wrote: >> >> I've already started an effort: check out http://www.baldwin.cx/splash/ >> >> There's much room for improvement, so please give me some feedback. > The only sad thing is that the version number is stamped into a lot of > these images. I'd like a scalable image with no version number > requirement :-). Or at least, I run 4.0 on my development machines and > would like a splash screen for them (especially since they are notebooks > and I tend to tote them around and show them to people). I have a version neutral splash screen at: http://www.nlc.net.au/~john/splash.bmp It's nothing flash but does the job. Cheers. -- +------------------------------------------------------------+ . | John Saunders - mailto:john@nlc.net.au (EMail) | ,--_|\ | - http://www.nlc.net.au/ (WWW) | / Oz \ | - 02-9489-4932 or 04-1822-3814 (Phone) | \_,--\_/ | NORTHLINK COMMUNICATIONS P/L - Supplying a professional, | v | and above all friendly, internet connection service. | +------------------------------------------------------------+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 0:50:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0AC9314D71 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 00:50:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 912 invoked by alias); 2 Mar 1999 08:49:49 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 886 invoked by uid 0); 2 Mar 1999 08:49:48 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 08:49:48 -0000 Message-ID: <36DBA62D.C51D28B7@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 00:49:49 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Saunders Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Robert Watson Subject: Re: 3.1 Release splash image References: <19990302042729.21840.qmail@nhj.nlc.net.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.freebsd.org/~yokota/sc_update.txt I didn't see it mention which encoding method to use for the bitmap. Should the bitmaps be run-length or RGB? My $.02: PNG and vector support would be great. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 3:33:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02B0614C29 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 03:33:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 18767 invoked by alias); 2 Mar 1999 11:32:51 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 18754 invoked by uid 0); 2 Mar 1999 11:32:50 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 11:32:50 -0000 Message-ID: <36DBCC64.934E57AE@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 03:32:52 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: John Saunders Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: 3.1 Release splash image References: <001001be649f$2f8251c0$69d4fea9@pacer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [format recovered] John Saunders wrote: >Nocturne wrote: >>I didn't see it mention which encoding method to use for the bitmap. >>Should the bitmaps be run-length or RGB? > >I don't think 256 color BMPs can be RGB encoded. I just used the >BMP that GIMP saved. Windows bitmaps can be saved in RLE, where all the data for each color is grouped together, or RGB where are all the data for each pixel is grouped together. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 8:30:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kewanee.net (207.32.31.111.galesburg.net [207.32.31.111]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B8B14D85 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:29:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from denny@kewanee.net) Received: (from denny@localhost) by frohike.dentoncompanies.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id KAA02367 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:27:54 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from denny) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:27:54 -0600 From: Dennis Reiter To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Good InfoWorld Article Message-ID: <19990302102754.A2304@inw.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just read this article on the Infoworld website, which has a mention of FreeBSD, and deals with the SPI/OSI controversy. http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/petrel/petrel.htm regards, Denny Reiter denny@kewanee.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 8:40:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D39E14BD2 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 08:40:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA01191; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:40:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302093341.040f2100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 09:35:09 -0700 To: Dennis Reiter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Good InfoWorld Article In-Reply-To: <19990302102754.A2304@inw.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The only bad thing about Petreley's article is that he claims to be of what he calls the "Who Cares movement," meaning that he doesn't care (or claims not to care) about licensing issues. This is very bad judgment, because he is ignoring the destructive effects of the GPL. --Brett At 10:27 AM 3/2/99 -0600, Dennis Reiter wrote: > >Just read this article on the Infoworld website, which has a mention >of FreeBSD, and deals with the SPI/OSI controversy. > >http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/petrel/petrel.htm > > >regards, > >Denny Reiter >denny@kewanee.net > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 9: 2:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3021515A for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:01:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17510; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:00:25 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:00:24 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: Brett Glass Cc: Dennis Reiter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good InfoWorld Article In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302093341.040f2100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, personally, let them do that, they have every freedom and right in the US to do what they want as far as licensing issues are concerned. And I have every freedom in the US to support FreeBSD and not attack anyone else's projects. Deal with it. I don;t like Stallman, I don;t like the FSF's resemblance to Communism, but I also respect everyone's right to license thier software how *they* want to license it. Maybe we should educate people on the merits of the BSD style license than try to pound into their heads the evils of the GPL. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY ___________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > The only bad thing about Petreley's article is that he claims to be > of what he calls the "Who Cares movement," meaning that he doesn't > care (or claims not to care) about licensing issues. This is very > bad judgment, because he is ignoring the destructive effects of > the GPL. > > --Brett > > At 10:27 AM 3/2/99 -0600, Dennis Reiter wrote: > > > > >Just read this article on the Infoworld website, which has a mention > >of FreeBSD, and deals with the SPI/OSI controversy. > > > >http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/petrel/petrel.htm > > > > > >regards, > > > >Denny Reiter > >denny@kewanee.net > > > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 9: 9:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B1FB14D75 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 09:09:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id KAA01464; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 10:08:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302100423.00b4bef0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 10:07:03 -0700 To: Pat Lynch From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Good InfoWorld Article Cc: Dennis Reiter , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990302093341.040f2100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:00 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Pat Lynch wrote: >Brett, personally, let them do that, they have every freedom and right in >the US to do what they want as far as licensing issues are concerned. The GPL has never been found by a court to be enforceable. Even if it were, however, it's still unethical to license one's code via the GPL. The purpose of the GPL is to destroy markets and programmers' livelihoods, and to participate in that process is, IMHO, a very destructive thing to do. It is thus important that programmers be informed of what the GPL does and recommend AGAINST its use. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 11:57:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 867CA14D01 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 11:57:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 23283 invoked from network); 2 Mar 1999 19:57:14 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 2 Mar 1999 19:57:14 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA66407; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:56:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903021956.OAA66407@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Good InfoWorld Article In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302093341.040f2100@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Mar 2, 99 09:35:09 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:56:59 -0500 (EST) Cc: mcneills@inw.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said: > > The only bad thing about Petreley's article is that he claims to be > of what he calls the "Who Cares movement," meaning that he doesn't > care (or claims not to care) about licensing issues. This is very > bad judgment, because he is ignoring the destructive effects of > the GPL. > There are two predominant groups who like GPL: 1) Those who don't understand that it is contrary to their long term interests, like programmers. 2) Those who understand that it keeps programmers out of the money pipeline -- in essence, those who use GPLed code as fuel for their business and don't want the risk of the programmers being able to wrestle control of the software (with the programmers innovations.) There is also a third group: 3) Those who hate the notion that creative programming should be profitable to the small-time programmer. It is probably some kind of self hatred complex. (The GPL-leader seems to be in this category.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 12:33:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sonic.digital-web.net (sonic.digital-web.net [216.65.27.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D4214DEA for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 12:33:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Received: from localhost (jmscott@localhost) by sonic.digital-web.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id PAA21155 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:30:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:30:24 -0500 (EST) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: jmscott@sonic.digital-web.net Reply-To: Joseph Scott To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Options for licensing perl scripts Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org With all the chat about GPL, LGPL, BSD, etc in regards to licensing I was curious what options were available to licensing perl scripts. Most of the ones that I've seen are usually the same as perl itself, GPL or "artistic". Honestly I haven't gone through the rather lengthly reading yet, and was hoping to hear what others had done in this situation. Joseph Scott joseph@randomnetworks.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 13:40: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEA31503E for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 13:39:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id OAA04209; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:39:11 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302143754.03fd0f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 14:39:07 -0700 To: Joseph Scott , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Options for licensing perl scripts In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Perl community seems to frown upon closed source Perl. In their FAQ, they try to make it sound as if it's a lost cause to do anything that's not open source, when in fact it's just the tools that make it a pain in the neck. --Brett At 03:30 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Joseph Scott wrote: > > With all the chat about GPL, LGPL, BSD, etc in regards to >licensing I was curious what options were available to licensing perl >scripts. Most of the ones that I've seen are usually the same as perl >itself, GPL or "artistic". > Honestly I haven't gone through the rather lengthly reading yet, >and was hoping to hear what others had done in this situation. > > >Joseph Scott >joseph@randomnetworks.com > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 14:52:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sonic.digital-web.net (sonic.digital-web.net [216.65.27.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AC8214E63 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:52:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Received: from localhost (jmscott@localhost) by sonic.digital-web.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA13631; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:49:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:49:04 -0500 (EST) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: jmscott@sonic.digital-web.net Reply-To: Joseph Scott To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Options for licensing perl scripts In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302143754.03fd0f00@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > The Perl community seems to frown upon closed source Perl. In their > FAQ, they try to make it sound as if it's a lost cause to do > anything that's not open source, when in fact it's just the tools > that make it a pain in the neck. I wasn't considering closed source really. Just a different license, more in the BSD vain that didn't require the person making mods to give them back to the world. Then again I was also thinking that perl scripts may survive, and not ruffle any moral feathers, as GPL just fine. > > --Brett > > At 03:30 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Joseph Scott wrote: > > > > > With all the chat about GPL, LGPL, BSD, etc in regards to > >licensing I was curious what options were available to licensing perl > >scripts. Most of the ones that I've seen are usually the same as perl > >itself, GPL or "artistic". > > Honestly I haven't gone through the rather lengthly reading yet, > >and was hoping to hear what others had done in this situation. > > > > > >Joseph Scott > >joseph@randomnetworks.com > > > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Joseph Scott joseph@randomnetworks.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 14:55:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70BE715583 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 14:55:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id PAA04960; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 15:55:30 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302155403.00a0d9a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 15:55:25 -0700 To: Joseph Scott From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Options for licensing perl scripts Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990302143754.03fd0f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The GPL is a bad idea because it would prevent people from using those scripts in, say, an embedded product such as a turnkey Internet router without publishing their changes to it. They'd probably just throw them away and do a needless rewrite. If you want to make any money off it, go closed source. If you just want to benefit fellow programmers, use the BSD license or just put it in the public domain. --Brett At 05:49 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Joseph Scott wrote: > >On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >> The Perl community seems to frown upon closed source Perl. In their >> FAQ, they try to make it sound as if it's a lost cause to do >> anything that's not open source, when in fact it's just the tools >> that make it a pain in the neck. > > I wasn't considering closed source really. Just a different >license, more in the BSD vain that didn't require the person making mods >to give them back to the world. > > Then again I was also thinking that perl scripts may survive, and >not ruffle any moral feathers, as GPL just fine. > > >> >> --Brett >> >> At 03:30 PM 3/2/99 -0500, Joseph Scott wrote: >> >> > >> > With all the chat about GPL, LGPL, BSD, etc in regards to >> >licensing I was curious what options were available to licensing perl >> >scripts. Most of the ones that I've seen are usually the same as perl >> >itself, GPL or "artistic". >> > Honestly I haven't gone through the rather lengthly reading yet, >> >and was hoping to hear what others had done in this situation. >> > >> > >> >Joseph Scott >> >joseph@randomnetworks.com >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >> >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >> > > >Joseph Scott >joseph@randomnetworks.com > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 16:18:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6EB8F155CB for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:18:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 95324 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Mar 1999 00:18:18 -0000 Date: 2 Mar 1999 16:18:18 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 16:18:18 -0800 From: Unfurl To: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD User Groups , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Seattle FreeBSD Users Group - March Meeting Message-ID: <19990302161818.A95241@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The Seattle FreeBSD Users Group (SeaFUG) will be having it's March meeting this Sunday the 7th. The meeting will be at Varlamos Pizzaria in the U District at 6:00pm. Being that this is only our second meeting we will be focusing on the future direction of the group. Anyone with input on this matter should attend. (this means everyone) :) Meeting info can be found on the SeaFUG web site at: http://www.seafug.org/meetings.phtml If you have any questions please feel free to contact me at unfurl@dub.net. -Bill Swingle -- unfurl@dub.net - This is a munition. Fight Back! #!/bin/perl -sp0777i; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 17:48:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA18459; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:18:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd018415; Tue Mar 2 19:18:52 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA29832; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 18:48:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903030148.SAA29832@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Good InfoWorld Article To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 01:48:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: mcneills@inw.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302093341.040f2100@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 2, 99 09:35:09 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The only bad thing about Petreley's article is that he claims to be > of what he calls the "Who Cares movement," meaning that he doesn't > care (or claims not to care) about licensing issues. This is very > bad judgment, because he is ignoring the destructive effects of > the GPL. This is the distinction between "use" and "utilize", again. If you are merely going to utilize the code, instead of using to prepare derivative works, then you honestly don't care about the license. For example, FreeBSD utilizes GNU programming tools to build FreeBSD, and could really care less that they are GNU (with the exception that binutils orphaned a.out). If FreeBSD cared, there would be a strong push for different tools (e.g. TenDRA). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 19:12:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.154.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DBB414E5B for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 19:12:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA81028 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:12:32 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:12:32 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.ibm.com/news/1999/03/02.phtml Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 20: 2:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 767EA14E00 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:02:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA07661; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:02:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302210116.009fe670@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 21:02:31 -0700 To: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As far as IBM, Intel, and the trade press are concerned, yes. If folks would like to see FreeBSD go ANYWHERE in terms of market share, reputation, and installed base, it's time to strategize. I've got a plan; who's with me? --Brett At 11:12 PM 3/2/99 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > >http://www.ibm.com/news/1999/03/02.phtml > >Marc G. Fournier >Systems Administrator @ hub.org >primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 20:11:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A261714CAF for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:11:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 9619 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999 04:11:33 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 04:11:33 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA00446; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:11:34 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903030411.XAA00446@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: from The Hermit Hacker at "Mar 2, 99 11:12:32 pm" To: scrappy@hub.org (The Hermit Hacker) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:11:34 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org (Mini-rant, not meant to be flamage, so just be patient that this is a rant of frustration, not a flame...) The Hermit Hacker said: > > http://www.ibm.com/news/1999/03/02.phtml > I haven't read that article, but there has been a severe lack of official (proper) advocacy by FreeBSD, and needs to be a full time effort for at least 2-3 people at this time. If at least one core member isn't working FULL time on PR, then there is an even more severe problem. Media contacts are critical, and I suspect that FreeBSD doesn't have enough (or our contacts aren't making enough progress.) FreeBSD has good technical people on the project, but still a severe lack of schmoozing. FreeBSD could stagnate technically for 1yr, but with proper marketing, could grow amazingly well. Technical excellence isn't an issue in the market today, because the comparisons are so inferior in many of the important ways (except for geek appeal, and now buzzword appeal.) FYI, my Dad just asked about Linux, and I explained that it was like FreeBSD (that I used to work on), and had to suggest that since his friends are most likely going to run Linux, that he might consider it also. This sickened me, but makes the Linux decision almost like the Windows decision of past days. I explained the license issue to him, and he agrees that GPL is a mess -- but I still claim that Linux is still a better choice for him :-(. FreeBSD *should* have been a better choice... Sure, I am trying to work on some advanced stuff, but that isn't going to make ANY difference in FreeBSD's (or any OSes) future for a couple of years. The key here is to make the contacts. I hear of FreeBSD in a similar vain to hearing about OS/2 or Betamax... :-(. BTW, I have 2 EDBeta decks, so I have previously backed loosers, and would hate to do so again... The really cool/sad thing is that today, one can get a digital video deck, which TOTALLY BLOWS the alternatives away for consumer purposes... Now, the question is: what is EDBeta? The answer: Who cares? The deciding factor on FreeBSD's success is PR, and it will be primarily PR, marketing and name recognition that supports FreeBSD's success or it's failure. A little insider note: I happen to have access to the insides of the proverbial largest computer manufacturer, and they really love FreeBSD. The reason why it isn't being used in certain applications has NOTHING to do with technical excellence. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 20:34:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E1F9014E7F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:34:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 16132 invoked by alias); 3 Mar 1999 04:34:17 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 16095 invoked by uid 0); 3 Mar 1999 04:34:16 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 04:34:16 -0000 Message-ID: <36DCBBC9.CB17CC87@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 20:34:17 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Active advocacy [Was: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...?] References: <199903030411.XAA00446@y.dyson.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "John S. Dyson" wrote: > FYI, my Dad just asked about Linux, and I explained that > it was like FreeBSD (that I used to work on), and had to > suggest that since his friends are most likely going to > run Linux, that he might consider it also. This sickened > me, but makes the Linux decision almost like the Windows > decision of past days. I explained the license issue to > him, and he agrees that GPL is a mess -- but I still claim > that Linux is still a better choice for him :-(. FreeBSD > *should* have been a better choice... You should have recommended FreeBSD, and when his friends start asking, try to get them to switch. Your actions follow suit with the lack of advocacy you're complaining about. Sheeple logic doesn't work. In this past week I've gotten two people to try FreeBSD, one is a newbie to computing (a mind untarnished by MS BS) and the other is a long time Linux user who's reasons for not switching were so that he could use software not written for FreeBSD, but I knew to work through the emulator. They've both read the handbook and they've both ordered CDs from WC. I even had, with their permission, majordomo send them help info and auth requests to be added to -newbies. (I think this should also go to -advocacy, but I'm not going to cross post unless people think I should.) -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 20:52:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD2E014E62 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:51:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id VAA08086; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:51:14 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990302214823.009792c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 21:51:09 -0700 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Good mention on ZDTV Silicon Spin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Watch the first item on Silicon Spin for Tuesday, March 2 at http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/siliconspin/ (it'll be up for one week). Michael Miller, Publisher of PC Magazine, points out that FreeBSD has a better reputation as a serious Web server than Linux. First time I've seen anyone other than Yours Truly point this out on the air.... --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 20:54:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B2B614DD5 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:54:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 97769 invoked by uid 1001); 3 Mar 1999 04:54:01 -0000 Date: 2 Mar 1999 20:54:00 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:54:00 -0800 From: Unfurl To: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: Active advocacy Message-ID: <19990302205400.A97649@dub.net> References: <199903030411.XAA00446@y.dyson.net> <36DCBBC9.CB17CC87@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <36DCBBC9.CB17CC87@uswest.net>; from Nocturne on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 08:34:17PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 08:34:17PM -0800, Nocturne wrote: > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > FYI, my Dad just asked about Linux, and I explained that > > it was like FreeBSD (that I used to work on), and had to > > suggest that since his friends are most likely going to > > run Linux, that he might consider it also. This sickened > > me, but makes the Linux decision almost like the Windows > > decision of past days. I explained the license issue to > > him, and he agrees that GPL is a mess -- but I still claim > > that Linux is still a better choice for him :-(. FreeBSD > > *should* have been a better choice... > > You should have recommended FreeBSD, and when his friends start > asking, try to get them to switch. Your actions follow suit > with the lack of advocacy you're complaining about. Sheeple > logic doesn't work. > > In this past week I've gotten two people to try FreeBSD, one is > a newbie to computing (a mind untarnished by MS BS) and the other > is a long time Linux user who's reasons for not switching were > so that he could use software not written for FreeBSD, but I knew > to work through the emulator. They've both read the handbook and > they've both ordered CDs from WC. I even had, with their permission, > majordomo send them help info and auth requests to be added to > -newbies. > > (I think this should also go to -advocacy, but I'm not going to > cross post unless people think I should.) I agree with this attitude. Advocacy really needs to start on a person to person basis. It needs to start with the people you know personally that might be persueded to try FreeBSD. I work in a Solaris shop but when I gave out 7 copies of old 2.2.6 disk sets what OS do you think they all switched to at home? FreeBSD of course. They didnt know that some non-commercial unix could be so cool because no one had been around to tell them about it.. Most of the time it just takes a bit of personal nudging to get someone to try FreeBSD. The average Linux user is most likely not going to reach out and try it on his/her own. Two years ago I became convinced that the best way to do this was to start a local users group. Not only does it create a group of *local* ppl that can help each other hands-on, but it also starts a network of people that bring others into the group Two years ago I lived in Tucson,AZ. After a few newsgroup posts and a meeting or two we had a really great group going. Today they have over 130 members. In January, after moving to Seattle, WA I posted a request to various newsgroups and mailing lists to see if there was any interest in a Seattle area users group. Now, two months later, the group is getting ready for it's second meeting and has 25 people on the mailing list. Some of these people are newbies that are getting their "mother's milk" from others on the list. Some of them might have given up without that initial boost. I'm rambling. All I really have to say is "start small", don't wait for someone to come up with some grand advocacy scheme, do it yourself on a level that you are capable of doing it on: LOCALLY. my .10 -Bill Swingle (I think it should go to -advocacy too so I will cross post it :) ) -- unfurl@dub.net - This is a munition. Fight Back! #!/bin/perl -sp0777i; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:54:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG) Received: from shibumi (shibumi [203.41.114.182]) by shibumi.feralmonkey.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F5A7A3C; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:57:35 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:57:35 +1100 (EST) From: To: Brett Glass Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302210116.009fe670@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Plan's are generally the easy part. Implementing them is where they fail. Nick -- "We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?" - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962) On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > As far as IBM, Intel, and the trade press are concerned, yes. > > If folks would like to see FreeBSD go ANYWHERE in terms of > market share, reputation, and installed base, it's time > to strategize. I've got a plan; who's with me? > > --Brett > > > At 11:12 PM 3/2/99 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > >http://www.ibm.com/news/1999/03/02.phtml > > > >Marc G. Fournier > >Systems Administrator @ hub.org > >primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 21: 0:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AD22714E96 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 20:58:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 21153 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999 04:58:13 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 04:58:13 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id XAA23291; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:58:14 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903030458.XAA23291@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Active advocacy [Was: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...?] In-Reply-To: <36DCBBC9.CB17CC87@uswest.net> from Nocturne at "Mar 2, 99 08:34:17 pm" To: dpilgrim@uswest.net (Nocturne) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:58:14 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > FYI, my Dad just asked about Linux, and I explained that > > it was like FreeBSD (that I used to work on), and had to > > suggest that since his friends are most likely going to > > run Linux, that he might consider it also. This sickened > > me, but makes the Linux decision almost like the Windows > > decision of past days. I explained the license issue to > > him, and he agrees that GPL is a mess -- but I still claim > > that Linux is still a better choice for him :-(. FreeBSD > > *should* have been a better choice... > > You should have recommended FreeBSD, and when his friends start > asking, try to get them to switch. Your actions follow suit > with the lack of advocacy you're complaining about. Sheeple > logic doesn't work. > I care more about my Dad not getting frustrated than I do about FreeBSD. Maybe he doesn't want to be a pioneer (which he doesn't.) Each problem needs a different solution, and there are still cases where I would tell a friend to use WinNT, because I care about them. To me, it is an issue of honesty, and support. > > In this past week I've gotten two people to try FreeBSD, one is > a newbie to computing (a mind untarnished by MS BS) and the other > is a long time Linux user who's reasons for not switching were > so that he could use software not written for FreeBSD, but I knew > to work through the emulator. They've both read the handbook and > they've both ordered CDs from WC. I even had, with their permission, > majordomo send them help info and auth requests to be added to > -newbies. > One has to create a solution for each person, and maybe FreeBSD is better in your cited cases. It is almost always better for me, but I am atypical (in my opinion, FreeBSD is almost always better for a programmer type.) The world is generally not made up of programmer types though, and the userbase will get what they want no matter what transpires. The ONLY reason why Linux might be better than FreeBSD is in critical mass (and the side-effect of having supported applications) or in advocacy. Maybe there is a higher proportion of BLIND advocacy in the Linux camp, and that is where I cannot morally function well. Well thought out advocacy is something that I can participate in -- and it still hurts that my Dad will likely be happier with Linux than with FreeBSD. (Remember, I have probably put 5-6 person years into FreeBSD, and have as much invested as most people do.) This is not an issue that I take lightly. I might boot FreeBSD for him, but his buddies will be running Linux, and that is where he will end up, no matter what I say. In my world, I have done what I have been able to do to move FreeBSD forward technically. It is time for those who CAN advocate to move forward. Also, it is important to quit being snobbish about avoiding advocacy. I am a technical person, with the PR abilities of our favorite independent prosecutor. > > (I think this should also go to -advocacy, but I'm not going to > cross post unless people think I should.) > I never know the right thing to do in that area... Someone will likely redirect it. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 21: 4:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.154.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6F6C14E7F for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:04:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA09131; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 01:04:19 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 01:04:18 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302210116.009fe670@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > As far as IBM, Intel, and the trade press are concerned, yes. And Compaq... > If folks would like to see FreeBSD go ANYWHERE in terms of > market share, reputation, and installed base, it's time > to strategize. I've got a plan; who's with me? My all ears... > At 11:12 PM 3/2/99 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > >http://www.ibm.com/news/1999/03/02.phtml > > > >Marc G. Fournier > >Systems Administrator @ hub.org > >primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 21:21:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-out.visi.com (tele.visi.com [209.98.98.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C1E714EA3 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 21:20:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mestery@visi.com) Received: from isis.visi.com (isis.visi.com [209.98.98.8]) by mail-out.visi.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB0701F801; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:20:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (mestery@localhost) by isis.visi.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA16118; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:20:28 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: isis.visi.com: mestery owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:20:28 -0600 (CST) From: To: Brett Glass Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990302210116.009fe670@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > As far as IBM, Intel, and the trade press are concerned, yes. > > If folks would like to see FreeBSD go ANYWHERE in terms of > market share, reputation, and installed base, it's time > to strategize. I've got a plan; who's with me? > Well, I think there are a lot of people on this list that would like to do what they can, me being one. What is this plan of yours? -- Kyle Mestery StorageTek's Storage Networking Group Protect your right to privacy: www.freecrypto.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 22:13:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 55D5B14EB6 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 22:13:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 27641 invoked by alias); 3 Mar 1999 06:13:18 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 27624 invoked by uid 0); 3 Mar 1999 06:13:17 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 06:13:17 -0000 Message-ID: <36DCD2FF.5F47940D@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 22:13:19 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Active advocacy [Was: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...?] References: <199903030458.XAA23291@dyson.iquest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > You should have recommended FreeBSD, and when his friends start > > asking, try to get them to switch. Your actions follow suit > > with the lack of advocacy you're complaining about. Sheeple > > logic doesn't work. > > > I care more about my Dad not getting frustrated than I do > about FreeBSD. Maybe he doesn't want to be a pioneer (which > he doesn't.) Each problem needs a different solution, and > there are still cases where I would tell a friend to use > WinNT, because I care about them. To me, it is an issue of > honesty, and support. Had you recommended FreeBSD, and he had grown frustrated or shown a lack of interest, you would have been able to say that you had at least tried and offered. Instead you made a judgment based on perception, not real truth. Don't feel bad, it's a common mistake when dealing with those close to you, you wouldn't want to draw lines in the sand. But you could have told your father to give it a shot and, if he didn't like it, you would be happy to help him setup the OS of his choice. > > (I think this should also go to -advocacy, but I'm not going to > > cross post unless people think I should.) > > > I never know the right thing to do in that area... Someone will > likely redirect it. I already got nailed for it once, and it put a knot in my stomach, making me feel like I had really blown it. So from now on I'll let others make the decision to cross. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 23:10:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AF4A14EC6 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:09:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA39913; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:08:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:12:32 -0400." Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:08:57 -0800 Message-ID: <39909.920444937@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > http://www.ibm.com/news/1999/03/02.phtml While I'm not denying IBM's residual importance in the marketplace (and that's still pretty darn big), I hardly see this as having "lost" anything at all. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 23:21:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A76714EC6 for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:21:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA40010; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:21:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good mention on ZDTV Silicon Spin In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 02 Mar 1999 21:51:09 MST." <4.1.19990302214823.009792c0@localhost> Date: Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:21:09 -0800 Message-ID: <40007.920445669@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yay! [really!] > Watch the first item on Silicon Spin for Tuesday, March 2 at > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/siliconspin/ > > (it'll be up for one week). Michael Miller, Publisher of > PC Magazine, points out that FreeBSD has a better reputation > as a serious Web server than Linux. First time I've seen > anyone other than Yours Truly point this out on the air.... > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 2 23:36:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E75914E4A for ; Tue, 2 Mar 1999 23:36:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id BAA08146; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 01:36:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 01:36:18 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Message-ID: <19990303013618.E25217@futuresouth.com> References: <39909.920444937@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <39909.920444937@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 11:08:57PM -0800 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Mar 02, 1999 at 11:08:57PM -0800, a little birdie told me that Jordan K. Hubbard remarked > > http://www.ibm.com/news/1999/03/02.phtml > > While I'm not denying IBM's residual importance in the marketplace > (and that's still pretty darn big), I hardly see this as having > "lost" anything at all. While I strive very hard to avoid taking extreme views on anything (OK, you can stop laughing now), I kinda agree with the 'lost' comment. As far as a lot of the 'mainstream' market is concerned, what everyone else is saying and what big companies are saying is what's right. Why else would NT be being used anywhere? Intel's chipped in a bit to Linux. Now here's IBM (pretty darn big, in Jordan's words) doing it too. Dell (I think?) has said they'll begin shipping systems with Linux. They've pretty well hit critical mass, and it's just going to snowball. The mainstream market has found it's blue-eyed baby boy. Bad? Good? I'm not going to pass judgement on this. Have we 'lost' the server market? Well, that's a tough one, since it's hard to say anyone has 'won' the market, or even if 'lost' and 'won' have any meaning. But we're certainly behind some balls, and one of them has a disturbing figure closely resembling "8" on it. --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 1:37:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Thingol.KryptoKom.DE (Thingol.KryptoKom.DE [194.245.91.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BDA014EBA for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 01:37:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eT@KryptoKom.DE) Received: (from mail@localhost) by Thingol.KryptoKom.DE (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA19432 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:37:36 +0100 Received: from cirdan.kryptokom.de by via smtpp (Version 1.1.1beta6) id kwa19430; Wed Mar 03 10:37:29 1999 Received: from borg.kryptokom.de (borg.Kryptokom.DE [192.168.6.132]) by Cirdan.KryptoKom.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA03617 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:40:07 +0100 Received: from kryptokom.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by borg.kryptokom.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01212 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:42:22 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from eT@kryptokom.de) Message-ID: <36DD03FB.E48F9051@kryptokom.de> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:42:19 +0100 From: eT Organization: KryptoKom GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-19980804-SNAP i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Windows NT3.1 really works! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hey guys! must say i knew that there was something good about NT3.1. for a long time i had this problem on my desk. no matter how hard i tried to stir my coffee gently, i always seem to leave these coffee stains/rings on my desk. well, no more! a friend of mine gave me a few NT3.1 CD's and ever since, by carefully placing the coffee mug on the CD whenever not drinking from it, no more stains! the stains are successfully blocked by NT3.1. question is, will this work for NT4.x? eT -- Etienne de Bruin; edebruin@iname.com visit eT on the web: http://listen.to/eT (last update: 20 Feb 1999) "god is there, there's no denying, supernatural" - dc talk, supernatural. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 1:53:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stratos.net (unknown [207.86.132.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D343814EEB; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 01:53:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) Received: (from drifter@localhost) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA02014; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 04:53:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from drifter) Message-ID: <19990303045313.B1500@net> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 04:53:13 -0500 From: Rob To: Matthew Hunt , "Ben J. Cohen" Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Dictionary References: <19990301135117.A74364@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990301135117.A74364@wopr.caltech.edu>; from Matthew Hunt on Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 01:51:17PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ X-ed to FreeBSD-Chat ] On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 01:51:17PM -0800, Matthew Hunt wrote: > On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:24:10PM +0000, Ben J. Cohen wrote: > > > I have been using it with a friend to try and solve crosswords and it > > hasn't been too brilliant---for instance it doesn't have the words > > "Internet" or "cheapskate". (Of course, our crossword solving skill > > aren't brilliant either.) > > Note the README: > > # Welcome to web2 (Webster's Second International) all 234,936 words worth. > # The 1934 copyright has elapsed, according to the supplier. The > # supplemental 'web2a' list contains hyphenated terms as well as assorted > # noun and adverbial phrases. The wordlist makes a dandy 'grep' victim. > > The lack of "Internet" in a 1934 dictionary should not be surprising. > We have that dictionary because its copyright expired, not because > anyone donated it. I don't know whether there are any more recent > or more complete dictionaries available for free. > > -- > Matthew Hunt * Science rules. > http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * This might sound like a stupid question, but how is it possible to "copyright" a dictionary? I(c) mean(c), they(c) don't(c) own(c) the(c) words(c), do they? At the very least, it would seem that Webster's would be hard- pressed to prove that somebody "stole" their word list. -Rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 2: 2: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398C214EBA for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:02:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id DAA09633; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:01:44 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 03:01:41 -0700 To: The Hermit Hacker From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990302210116.009fe670@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:04 AM 3/3/99 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >> If folks would like to see FreeBSD go ANYWHERE in terms of >> market share, reputation, and installed base, it's time >> to strategize. I've got a plan; who's with me? > >My all ears... OK, I'm traveling this week, so I'll need to outline this in several steps. The first thing is to form several teams out of those who are active on these lists. Here are the four I envision. (Each will appeal to certain personality types, as you'll see.) 1) The Raving Loonies. This is the fun one. You get to go totally over the top on public forums, starting flame wars, bashing and baiting the competition. Think "Team OS/2," but even more out of control. The more fuss this "lunatic fringe" makes, the better. The purpose of this group is really not to sell the product but merely to draw attention to it; after that, the next group takes over. So, it needs to be the most slavering, slobbering, fanatical, over-the-top kind of "advocacy" -- advocacy which sometimes backfires but GETS ATTENTION. Asbestos underwear required to endure flames. 2) The Voices of Reason. These folks also speak in public forums, but apologize for the activities of the loonies. They then offer carefully chosen studies and data showing that the product really is superior. They present papers at conference describing the superior technical features of the product. Jordan Hubbard would be an excellent member of, or leader for, this contingent, since he is already doing some of this. But we need more. 3) The Salespeople. These people sell the product to OEMs, VARs, and retailers. The idea: to promote FreeBSD as an installation option on new PCs and to get it carried in bookstores and computer stores. These people will be empowered to offer free Web listings -- essentially, ads -- to vendors that sign on. They'll also have a budget of free CDs to hand out. They work with the next group to generate mentions of these vendors in the press. 4) The Press Release Writers. This group generates one press release per week about the product. The press releases are essentially "pre-written" articles that are easy for magazines to drop into the space they must fill in their publications -- especially when there's a tight deadline. This group uses a "shotgun" approach; it's unpredictable which press releases will actually be printed in what publications. But they need to keep them coming -- again, once a week -- and posting them and mailing them as widely as possible. Netxt, I'll want to discuss what each of these four groups should start doing. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 2: 9:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BDB014F04 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:09:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10I8a5-0005Y4-00; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:08:46 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from beavis.uk.radan.com (beavis [193.114.228.122]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id KAA02143; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:08:38 GMT Received: from uk.radan.com (gppsun4) by beavis.uk.radan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04023; Wed, 3 Mar 99 10:06:36 GMT Message-Id: <36DD099F.3DC701E3@uk.radan.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:06:24 +0000 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB Mime-Version: 1.0 To: eT Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Windows NT3.1 really works! References: <36DD03FB.E48F9051@kryptokom.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org eT wrote: > > hey guys! must say i knew that there was something good about NT3.1. > > for a long time i had this problem on my desk. no matter how hard i tried > to stir my coffee gently, i always seem to leave these coffee stains/rings > on my desk. well, no more! a friend of mine gave me a few NT3.1 CD's > and ever since, by carefully placing the coffee mug on the CD whenever > not drinking from it, no more stains! the stains are successfully blocked > by NT3.1. > You're still putting your coffee cup on the desk?. The problem of coffee stains on desks was addressed by PC manufacturers years ago. There should be a little button on the front of your PC. Press it, and out will slide a small tray for you to put your cup on ;-) > question is, will this work for NT4.x? > Don't see why not > eT > > -- > Etienne de Bruin; edebruin@iname.com > visit eT on the web: http://listen.to/eT (last update: 20 Feb 1999) > "god is there, there's no denying, supernatural" - dc talk, supernatural. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 2:13:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shibumi.feralmonkey.org (shibumi.feralmonkey.org [203.41.114.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F03115504 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:13:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG) Received: from shibumi (shibumi [203.41.114.182]) by shibumi.feralmonkey.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE29E7A3C for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:17:08 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:17:08 +1100 (EST) From: To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD/BSD users in Sydney CBD? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm unaware of a current user group in Sydney, so please correct me if there is already one. However, in the event that there isn't one, I'm asking for a show of interest in forming one for the Sydney region, primarily for those who work/live around the CBD area. The idea would be to meet on a monthly basis, possibly the first friday of every month, to catch up and trade war stories, etc. Let me know if you're interested. Cheers, Nick -- "We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?" - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 2:29:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92D31547A for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:29:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: (from hamellr@localhost) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id CAA05670; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:22:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:22:43 -0800 (PST) From: rick hamell To: Rob Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Dictionary In-Reply-To: <19990303045313.B1500@net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This might sound like a stupid question, but how is it possible > to "copyright" a dictionary? I(c) mean(c), they(c) don't(c) own(c) > the(c) words(c), do they? > At the very least, it would seem that Webster's would be hard- > pressed to prove that somebody "stole" their word list. Not really, Websters tends to define words differently then other dictionary compaines. As such they could easily prove that a list of words is 'thier's.' It would be nice to have a more up to date list, but until someone has the time to sit down and enter them.... perhaps there is already an onnline resource that 'we' could borrow from? I know there are tons of scrabble dictionaries onnline... Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 2:41: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7CD75155CC for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:41:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 5601 invoked by alias); 3 Mar 1999 10:40:47 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 5561 invoked by uid 0); 3 Mar 1999 10:40:46 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 10:40:46 -0000 Message-ID: <36DD11AE.7EE0CF6E@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 02:40:46 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? References: <39909.920444937@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990303013618.E25217@futuresouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > shipping systems with Linux. They've pretty well hit critical mass, and > it's just going to snowball. The mainstream market has found it's > blue-eyed baby boy. One really key thing about popularity and mainstream explosions is that they acid test the product. Any flaws are going to show up *real* fast. We (being the FreeBSD community) should be poised to chime in, when applicable, to say that FreeBSD doesn't have that particular flaw. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 2:43:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA536154CE for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:42:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 11049 invoked by alias); 3 Mar 1999 10:42:40 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 11004 invoked by uid 0); 3 Mar 1999 10:42:40 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 10:42:40 -0000 Message-ID: <36DD1220.842A741C@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 02:42:40 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eT Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Windows NT3.1 really works! References: <36DD03FB.E48F9051@kryptokom.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org eT wrote: > > hey guys! must say i knew that there was something good about NT3.1. > > for a long time i had this problem on my desk. no matter how hard i tried > to stir my coffee gently, i always seem to leave these coffee stains/rings > on my desk. well, no more! a friend of mine gave me a few NT3.1 CD's > and ever since, by carefully placing the coffee mug on the CD whenever > not drinking from it, no more stains! the stains are successfully blocked > by NT3.1. > > question is, will this work for NT4.x? Amazing, a protection feature of NT that actually works! There is the problem of the security hole at the center of the disc though, but I heard MS is releasing a service pack sometime before 2010 to fix the problem. :-) -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 2:52:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Thingol.KryptoKom.DE (Thingol.KryptoKom.DE [194.245.91.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86BC214F38; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 02:52:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eT@KryptoKom.DE) Received: (from mail@localhost) by Thingol.KryptoKom.DE (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA21263; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:53:09 +0100 Received: from cirdan.kryptokom.de by via smtpp (Version 1.1.1beta6) id kwa21252; Wed Mar 03 11:52:55 1999 Received: from borg.kryptokom.de (borg.Kryptokom.DE [192.168.6.132]) by Cirdan.KryptoKom.DE (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA04824; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:55:33 +0100 Received: from kryptokom.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by borg.kryptokom.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA01297; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:57:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from eT@kryptokom.de) Message-ID: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 11:57:44 +0100 From: eT Organization: KryptoKom GmbH X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-19980804-SNAP i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: what's in a name? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am wondering why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first place? could it be that the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly operating system than FreeBSD? and that because of this new users are more susceptible to using it? i mean, just all the different versions of linux out there would make me think twice about even starting off with it? is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more than ever before! eT -- Etienne de Bruin; edebruin@iname.com visit eT on the web: http://listen.to/eT (last update: 20 Feb 1999) "god is there, there's no denying, supernatural" - dc talk, supernatural. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 3: 4:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orcrist.mediacity.com (orcrist.mediacity.com [208.138.36.146]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69F7514F07; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:04:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@orcrist.mediacity.com) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by orcrist.mediacity.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA27788; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:04:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:04:28 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: eT Cc: FreeBSD Chat , freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: what's in a name? Message-ID: <19990303030428.E26015@orcrist.mediacity.com> Reply-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org References: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de>; from eT on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:57:44AM +0100 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:57:44AM +0100, eT wrote: > > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant > of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more > than ever before! > > Etienne de Bruin; edebruin@iname.com Why not change your name to Joe Camel, so you have more marketability and better name recognition? ... Same reason. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter The best way to accelerate Windows mailto:gsutter@pobox.com is at 9.8 m/s^2. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 3:12:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shibumi.feralmonkey.org (shibumi.feralmonkey.org [203.41.114.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9754E14E9C; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:12:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG) Received: from shibumi (shibumi [203.41.114.182]) by shibumi.feralmonkey.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303767A3C; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:15:22 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:15:22 +1100 (EST) From: To: eT Cc: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Without an image behind it, a name is nothing. Nick -- "We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?" - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962) On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, eT wrote: > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am wondering > why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first place? could it be that > the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly operating system than > FreeBSD? and that because of this new users are more susceptible to > using it? > > i mean, just all the different versions of linux out there would make me > think twice about even starting off with it? > > is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? > > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant > of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more > than ever before! > > eT > > -- > Etienne de Bruin; edebruin@iname.com > visit eT on the web: http://listen.to/eT (last update: 20 Feb 1999) > "god is there, there's no denying, supernatural" - dc talk, supernatural. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 3:14:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from postman.bayarea.net (postman.bayarea.net [205.219.84.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A787214F04; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:14:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Dave@Yost.com) Received: from [205.219.69.138] (205-219-69-138.bayarea.net [205.219.69.138]) by postman.bayarea.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA05041; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:14:18 -0800 (PST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Sender: dayost@mail.bayarea.net Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:13:58 -0800 To: eT From: Dave Yost Subject: Re: what's in a name? Cc: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:57 AM +0100 1999-03-03, eT wrote: > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am wondering > why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first place? could it be t= hat > the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly operating system than > FreeBSD? and that because of this new users are more susceptible to > using it? Yes! Linux is warm and fuzzy, like Linus, the kid with the fuzzy blanket. = FreeBSD is techie and acrinomious, acronymical. (Yes, I know, there will= be a chorus of fans who like it to sound techie.) And it sounds like= freebie, which has the connotation of el cheapo marketing. > is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? Absolutely. > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant > of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more > than ever before! schroedix? snoopix? peanix? (this one makes me laugh) blankie? blankix? fuzzix? paulinx? VitaminCeex? warmvm? steamingvm? weenix? geex? geexooks? wannabeex? berx? (not good for the U.K. -- well, it would make for a good book title: berx for Berks.) ;-) I'm getting carried away... But seriously, there's a totally great name out there waiting to be discover= ed. Do you think Zip drives would have caught on as well if they had been called= Bernoulli III? or FloppyXYZ? Dave Too much crazed wordplay for one night... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 3:51:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from corp.au.triax.com (slwag1p25.ozemail.com.au [203.108.157.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2599F1508A; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:50:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jim@corp.au.triax.com) Received: (from jim@localhost) by corp.au.triax.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA03824; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:50:00 +1100 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:49:59 +1100 From: Jim Mock To: eT Cc: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? Message-ID: <19990303224958.A3681@corp.au.triax.com> Reply-To: jim@corp.au.triax.com References: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 03 Mar 1999 at 11:57:44 +0100, eT wrote: > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am > wondering why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first > place? Plain and simple.. publicity. Linux is what's talked about in the news. Alot of people don't even know they have any other options. Blame it on the media.. it seems they like to call all free unices "Linux". > could it be that the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly > operating system than FreeBSD? and that because of this new users > are more susceptible to using it? > Eh? How does Linux sound more user-friendly? > i mean, just all the different versions of linux out there would > make me think twice about even starting off with it? > There's different *BSDs too. > is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? > Doubtful. Why would it be? > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant of linux? i > agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more than ever > before! > I think you've spent too much time "phoning home" eT. There's nothing wrong with the name.. the problem is getting the word out that there are alternatives to Linux. I mean you can call a lump of shit sugar, but it's still a lump of shit right? The point is, the name's got nothing to do with it, doing something about the situation is what it's all about. Some media outlets are finally catching on.. there was a post from Brett Glass earlier about ZDTV mentioning FreeBSD, and even Bill Gates himself has mentioned FreeBSD. Articles need to be written and sent to magazines.. writing articles for sites like The FreeBSD 'zine and Daemon News.. posting stuff on Slashdot.. getting a friend to convert from Linux or Windows to FreeBSD.. starting a user group in your area (unless you're in my boat and in a technologically challenged area, i.e., you mention the word computer and people look at you like you've got a big snot hangin' from your nose, let alone bring up UNIX or FreeBSD).. those are the kinds of things that need to be done, not a name change. Anyway, I'm rambling.. time to shut up, but I think you get my point. Btw, anyone interested in contributing an article to The FreeBSD 'zine, drop me an email or hunt me down in #FreeBSD on Undernet, and we'll go from there. Later, -- : Jim Mock | [jim@corp.au.triax.com] : : System Administrator | http://www.triax.com/ : : Triax Internet Services | ----------------------------- : : Portland, OR USA | The FreeBSD 'zine : : Wagga Wagga, NSW Australia | http://www.freebsdzine.org/ : : FreeBSD: The Power To Serve | http://www.freebsd.org/ : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 3:55:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ska.bsn (d178.syd2.zeta.org.au [203.26.9.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 212E314F10 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 03:55:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA11076; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:02:23 +1100 (EST) (envelope-from atrn) Message-ID: <19990303230221.A11032@ska.bsn> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:02:21 +1100 From: Andy Newman To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Crongratulations to all at USENIX Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Looked at the program for the USENIX Technical Conference today and was happy to see FreeBSD well represented. Well done people. Pity I can't afford the airfare to witness it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 4:23: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.154.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B51D14F3B for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 04:23:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA61264; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:22:43 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:22:42 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <39909.920444937@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 2 Mar 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > http://www.ibm.com/news/1999/03/02.phtml > > While I'm not denying IBM's residual importance in the marketplace > (and that's still pretty darn big), I hardly see this as having > "lost" anything at all. Alot of companies tend to still prefer the "commericial server vendors", which, other then Gateway, are all moving towards Linux recogniztion or direct support... IBM and Compaq are two the of the large ones that are shipping with Linux Oracle, a predominate server market, is shipping for Linux Intel just jumped behind Linux through VAResearch - Slashdot -> VA Going Bigtime article How does one work at curbing this trend? How do we become more visible? For my part, once Applixware is released, I'm going to pick up a copy of it...add my voice of one to sales, hopefully to help show that there is a market for stuff like that, but that's one voice :( Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 4:46:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E3F615518 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 04:46:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id NAA16567; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:45:42 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24809; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:45:42 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:45:42 +0100 (CET) From: Marius Bendiksen To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > For my part, once Applixware is released, I'm going to pick up a copy of > it...add my voice of one to sales, hopefully to help show that there is a > market for stuff like that, but that's one voice :( Had we had proper kernel threads, I'm pretty sure we could've convinced StarDivision to port to FreeBSD. I've not had a chance to try out applixware for any platform, but StarOffice works well enough to suit all my needs, both private and commercial. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 5: 0:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.154.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD02C14F28 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:00:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA61520; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:00:27 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:00:26 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Nocturne Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <36DD11AE.7EE0CF6E@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Nocturne wrote: > "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > > shipping systems with Linux. They've pretty well hit critical mass, and > > it's just going to snowball. The mainstream market has found it's > > blue-eyed baby boy. > > One really key thing about popularity and mainstream explosions is that > they acid test the product. Any flaws are going to show up *real* fast. And, with the number of developers over in that camp, they get *fixed* real fast too... The problem, as I see it, is in a statement Jordan made in response to a question I made a few weeks back, after buying this really nice Video card...we aren't even looking at the desktop market anymore. Except, the server market is such a small one in comparison, our visibility is small. Here's a thought...due to the whole QT licensing issue a while back, KDE appears to have gotten a bad name in the Linux community. I believe RedHat went from distributing/backing KDE to moving tover to Gnome, as a result...now that that issue is under-the-bridge, so to say, why don't we jump behind the KDE developers? Start a 'freebsd-kde' mailing list...I personally think that KDE makes for a nice, easy, desktop environment ... supporting that project might be the direction required to get us *into* the desktop environment. An odd question, but ... who do *we* support? Projects wise...is there a list? For instance, FreeBSD, Inc is, in my opinion, making an investment into Applixware, through the port...I'm planning on picking that up once its released, as a method of showing support for such endeavors in the future. Here's one...how about coming up with some way of showing physical numbers of sales to hardware/software vendors? For instance, I just picked up a Creative Graphics RivaTNT card...beautiful thing, but, of course, none of the advanced features are supported by FreeBSD. Its in my FreeBSD machine though...somehow provide a means of listing it as a "FreeBSD Sale". Someone else mentioned that one before, where they bought software, but only if the company would register it as a FreeBSD sale, even though it was a Linux version running under emulation? Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 5: 5: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat193.154.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.193.154]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1C0A14EE0 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:05:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA61524; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:02:06 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:02:06 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > For my part, once Applixware is released, I'm going to pick up a copy of > > it...add my voice of one to sales, hopefully to help show that there is a > > market for stuff like that, but that's one voice :( > > Had we had proper kernel threads, I'm pretty sure we could've convinced > StarDivision to port to FreeBSD. I've not had a chance to try out > applixware for any platform, but StarOffice works well enough to suit all > my needs, both private and commercial. If I wanted to run a Linux program, I'd install Linux. I'll pay to have an Office Suite that is native... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 5:41:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 218D9151AA for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:40:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id AAA25205; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:40:03 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <19990304003956.54321@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:39:56 +1100 From: Sue Blake To: nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD/BSD users in Sydney CBD? References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 09:17:08PM +1100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 09:17:08PM +1100, nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG wrote: > I'm unaware of a current user group in Sydney, so please correct me if > there is already one. No, there isn't. > However, in the event that there isn't one, I'm > asking for a show of interest in forming one for the Sydney region, > primarily for those who work/live around the CBD area. > > The idea would be to meet on a monthly basis, possibly the first friday of > every month, to catch up and trade war stories, etc. > > Let me know if you're interested. I don't actually live in Sydney but I could be tempted to travel from Gosford once a month or two, so add me to the list. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 5:45:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oitunix.oit.umass.edu (nscs23p15.remote.umass.edu [128.119.179.58]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A9E14F42 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 05:45:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gp@oitunix.oit.umass.edu) Received: (from gp@localhost) by oitunix.oit.umass.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA27514; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:45:01 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gp) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:45:01 -0500 From: Greg Pavelcak To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Message-ID: <19990303084501.A27440@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> References: <4.1.19990302210116.009fe670@localhost> <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 03:01:41AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 03:01:41AM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:04 AM 3/3/99 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > OK, I'm traveling this week, so I'll need to outline this in > several steps. > > The first thing is to form several teams out of those who are > active on these lists. Here are the four I envision. (Each > will appeal to certain personality types, as you'll see.) > > 1) The Raving Loonies. This is the fun one. You get to go > totally over the top on public forums, starting flame wars, > bashing and baiting the competition. Think "Team OS/2," but > even more out of control. The more fuss this "lunatic fringe" > makes, the better. The purpose of this group is really not to > sell the product but merely to draw attention to it; after that, > the next group takes over. So, it needs to be the most slavering, > slobbering, fanatical, over-the-top kind of "advocacy" -- > advocacy which sometimes backfires but GETS ATTENTION. Asbestos > underwear required to endure flames. > I don't see how it can ever be good to become associated with assholes and morons. You have this one backwards. You need loyal FreeBSD people to pose as Linux and Microsoft supporters. These people can appear at software related events all over the country, always drunk, always rude, constantly urinating in public. They should especially target FreeeBSD. Is Jordan willing to be peed on for the cause? Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 7: 2:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.GTS.NET (whambam.gts.net [204.138.66.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 667ED14FFE; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 07:02:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tronix!signalpath.on.ca!louis@GTS.NET) Received: from tronix by mail.GTS.NET (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1; 1998-Nov-20) (4630 bytes) via rmail with /P:uucp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp id (sender ) for FreeBSD.ORG!freebsd-advocacy; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:02:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from tronix.signalpath.on.ca([192.168.250.1]) (4309 bytes) by tronix.signalpath.on.ca via sendmail with P:esmtp/R:smart_host/T:uux (sender: ) id for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:25:53 -0500 (EST) (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1 built 1999-Jan-2) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:25:53 -0500 (EST) From: Louis Bertrand Reply-To: Louis Bertrand To: Jim Mock Cc: eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <19990303224958.A3681@corp.au.triax.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pardon an interloper from OpenBSD. I just subscribed and caught this thread which echoes a draft of an opinion piece I was going to do for DaemonNews. On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Jim Mock wrote: > > could it be that the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly > > operating system than FreeBSD? and that because of this new users > > are more susceptible to using it? > > > > Eh? How does Linux sound more user-friendly? > 1) Because it's associated with a real person's name, whose hype as a philantropic boy-genius from Finland catches the attention of non-techies (may it's that Mozart thing...). I'm not running Linus down -- he is articulate and media-savvy and has a lot to do with the success of Linux. But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in trouble with Nike. 2) Because a name is one of the hardest things to remember about a person -- it's an arbitrary choice by parents, and not tied back to a physical characteristic. Hence you try to make the name representative and associated with mnemonic clues (Linux -> Linus) A big no-no in marketing is using initials (IBM is big enough to get away with it -- a freenix OS isn't). Try explaining BSD to a non-techie, then quiz him/her the next day. If they even remember the name, you'll get DBS, BBS, BSB... Hence you use something that evokes a warm fuzzy response and you're more likely to be remembered. Media scribes are like the rest of us: over-worked and underpaid. You need to catch their attention. > > i mean, just all the different versions of linux out there would > > make me think twice about even starting off with it? > > > > There's different *BSDs too. > > > is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? > > > > Doubtful. Why would it be? One word: Marketing. Have you ever seen the movie "The Shawshank Redemption"? Good movie, lousy name; it flopped at the box office. Same with Isuzu automobiles: their sales took off when they started sub-branding (RODEO by Isuzu, in North America). > > > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant of linux? i > > agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more than ever > > before! > > > > I think you've spent too much time "phoning home" eT. There's nothing > wrong with the name.. the problem is getting the word out that there > are alternatives to Linux. I mean you can call a lump of shit sugar, > but it's still a lump of shit right? The point is, the name's got > nothing to do with it, doing something about the situation is what > it's all about. There is something wrong with the name but I agree that calling FreeBSD a variant of Linux is a very bad idea. However, we could use some better marketing. It's a conundrum of the open source groups that there are more developers than marketers (exact opposite in large software companies). Another problem is that there are no applications aimed at non-expert users. By non-expert user, I mean someone who is an expert in a non-computer field but has to use a computer to get their job done, like a graphic artist, a stock market analyst, a writer, a sales person, etc. They're treated like boobs by the hackers in the open source movement. If you want respect from the community at large, you have to earn it since, unlike Nike, MS and Camel, you can't buy it. You won't solve the problem by going into denial. Ciao! --Louis Louis Bertrand, Bowmanville, ON, Canada OpenBSD: One fish, two fish, blowfish http://www.OpenBSD.org/crypto.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 8: 0:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A1E815477; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:00:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA09072; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:58:57 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36DD5C3F.A0FC6C1F@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 08:58:55 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Louis Bertrand Cc: Jim Mock , eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Louis Bertrand wrote: > > Pardon an interloper from OpenBSD. I just subscribed and caught this > thread which echoes a draft of an opinion piece I was going to do for > DaemonNews. > > On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Jim Mock wrote: > > > > could it be that the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly > > > operating system than FreeBSD? and that because of this new users > > > are more susceptible to using it? > > > > > > > Eh? How does Linux sound more user-friendly? > > > > 1) Because it's associated with a real person's name, whose hype as a > philantropic boy-genius from Finland catches the attention of non-techies > (may it's that Mozart thing...). I'm not running Linus down -- he is > articulate and media-savvy and has a lot to do with the success of Linux. > > But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in > trouble with Nike. TerryBSD lives! > 2) Because a name is one of the hardest things to remember about a person > -- it's an arbitrary choice by parents, and not tied back to a physical > characteristic. Hence you try to make the name representative and > associated with mnemonic clues (Linux -> Linus) A big no-no in marketing > is using initials (IBM is big > enough to get away with it -- a freenix OS isn't). Try explaining BSD to a > non-techie, then quiz him/her the next day. If they even remember the > name, you'll get DBS, BBS, BSB... Or worse, DSB, that terrible disease that afflicts teenage boys EVERYwhere. Comments about TerryDSB are unwelcome in this forum... > Hence you use something that evokes a > warm fuzzy response and you're more likely to be remembered. Media scribes > are like the rest of us: over-worked and underpaid. You need to catch > their attention. We'll have to make the TerryBSD daemon thinner, with freckles. That oughtta remove any sinister connotations. > You won't solve the problem by going into denial. I can if I deny there is a problem. I don't have any personal need for FreeBSD to become a whopping commercial success; I do not seek the validation of the marketplace for my choices in using and contributing to FreeBSD. How's that for denial? -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 8:18: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mamut.isi.wat.waw.pl (mamut.isi.wat.waw.pl [193.59.144.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CA60C14FE8 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:17:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwojtas@mamut.isi.wat.waw.pl) Received: (qmail 1501 invoked by uid 1030); 3 Mar 1999 16:18:56 -0000 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:18:56 +0100 (EET) From: Dariusz Wojtas To: FreeBSD Chat Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <36DD5C3F.A0FC6C1F@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > TerryBSD lives! Terry? I always thought it was Chuck! ChuckBSD lives! Sag ____ ___ _______ Sentencja na dzis :) / __/______ ___ / _ )/ __/ _ \ +====================+ / _// __/ -_) -_) _ |\ \/ // / Szczesciem jednego czlowieka /_/ /_/ \__/\__/____/___/____/ jest drugi czlowiek. ----- The Power to Serve ----- (Jean Paul Sartre) http://www.freebsd.org +====================+ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 8:28:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAA6914DD5; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:28:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id LAA05177; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:35:43 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199903031635.LAA05177@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Dictionary In-Reply-To: <19990303045313.B1500@net> from Rob at "Mar 3, 99 04:53:13 am" To: drifter@stratos.nospam.net (Rob) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:35:43 -0500 (EST) Cc: mph@astro.caltech.edu, bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rob wrote, > This might sound like a stupid question, but how is it possible > to "copyright" a dictionary? I(c) mean(c), they(c) don't(c) own(c) > the(c) words(c), do they? > At the very least, it would seem that Webster's would be hard- > pressed to prove that somebody "stole" their word list. So I could make photocopies Websters and go sell them on the corner, and you would see no problem with that? Greg Lehey's book on FreeBSD must not be copyrighted because he does not own FreeBSD. Likewise and book on history, science, etc., basically any work on non-fiction must not be copyrighted. Compilation of those words represents many man-years of labor. Websters or any other entity has the right to protect that hard work from plagiarism. As for the last point, taking the moral highground, I see, "I know it is wrong, but I cannot be caught, so it is OK." But wait, there is the ol' urban legend that dictionaries put in bogus entries just to be able to catch copyright infringments. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 8:54:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5388B14F55 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 08:54:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem30.masternet.it [194.184.65.40]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id RAA24460 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:53:58 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990303180126.009bbba0@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 18:02:32 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: References: <36DD5C3F.A0FC6C1F@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 17.18 03/03/99 +0100, you wrote: >> TerryBSD lives! > >Terry? >I always thought it was Chuck! >ChuckBSD lives! Naaa, what about JordaX :-) Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 9:34:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hyperhost.net (ether.lightrealm.com [207.159.132.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58E1D14E97; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:34:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from patseal@hyperhost.net) Received: from port9.annex8.radix.net (port9.annex8.radix.net [205.252.108.9]) by hyperhost.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA08215; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:33:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:32:51 -0500 (EST) From: Patrick Seal To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Rob , mph@astro.caltech.edu, bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk, questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Dictionary In-Reply-To: <199903031635.LAA05177@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think what he meant is web2a contains only words, not definitions. So in theory, all non trademarked or whatever words can be reproduced. (just the words, not definitions) Correct me if I'm wrong, I have no idea what the hell I'm talking about, and I'm glad I'm not a lawyer. ------------------------------------ _____________________________________ Patrick Seal |"Microsoft isn't evil, they just make | really crappy operating systems." Hyperhost - http://www.hyperhost.net| -Linus Torvalds hosting and Design http://www.freebsd.org - http://www.linux.org On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Crist J. Clark wrote: > Rob wrote, > > This might sound like a stupid question, but how is it possible > > to "copyright" a dictionary? I(c) mean(c), they(c) don't(c) own(c) > > the(c) words(c), do they? > > At the very least, it would seem that Webster's would be hard- > > pressed to prove that somebody "stole" their word list. > > So I could make photocopies Websters and go sell them on the corner, > and you would see no problem with that? Greg Lehey's book on FreeBSD > must not be copyrighted because he does not own FreeBSD. Likewise and > book on history, science, etc., basically any work on non-fiction must > not be copyrighted. > > Compilation of those words represents many man-years of > labor. Websters or any other entity has the right to protect that hard > work from plagiarism. > > As for the last point, taking the moral highground, I see, "I know it > is wrong, but I cannot be caught, so it is OK." But wait, there is the > ol' urban legend that dictionaries put in bogus entries just to be > able to catch copyright infringments. > -- > Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 9:53:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6960614F53; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:53:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA233733545; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:52:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:52:25 -0500 (EST) From: Bill Fumerola To: Louis Bertrand Cc: Jim Mock , eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Louis Bertrand wrote: > enough to get away with it -- a freenix OS isn't). Try explaining BSD to a > non-techie, then quiz him/her the next day. If they even remember the > name, you'll get DBS, BBS, BSB... Hence you use something that evokes a > warm fuzzy response and you're more likely to be remembered. Media scribes > are like the rest of us: over-worked and underpaid. You need to catch > their attention. One of my bosses often states that we run 'FreeDSB' - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 9:56:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3BE14F44 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:56:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA41719; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 09:55:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Mar 1999 13:45:42 +0100." Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 09:55:55 -0800 Message-ID: <41715.920483755@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > StarDivision to port to FreeBSD. I've not had a chance to try out > applixware for any platform, but StarOffice works well enough to suit all Given my dealings with them up to now, I seriously doubt this. It's not kernel threads that seems to be their principal issue at all (it's market size). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 10:13:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FD8214F53 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:12:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA05107; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:12:36 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990303131235.A1022@netmonger.net> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:12:35 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <39909.920444937@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990303013618.E25217@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19990303013618.E25217@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 01:36:18AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 01:36:18AM -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > Intel's chipped in a bit to Linux. Now here's IBM (pretty darn big, in > Jordan's words) doing it too. Dell (I think?) has said they'll begin > shipping systems with Linux. They've pretty well hit critical mass, and > it's just going to snowball. The mainstream market has found it's > blue-eyed baby boy. > > Bad? Good? I'm not going to pass judgement on this. Have we 'lost' the Good is that there is a choice. Microsoft's stranglehold is being broken. We will be able to buy computers that don't come with software we don't want preinstalled on them. Yesterday it was Windows only. Today it's Windows or Linux. "One, Two, Many". -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 10:28:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 736B2154A4 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:28:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA41923; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:28:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Christopher Masto Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Mar 1999 13:12:35 EST." <19990303131235.A1022@netmonger.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 10:28:27 -0800 Message-ID: <41919.920485707@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yesterday it was Windows only. Today it's Windows or Linux. > "One, Two, Many". Thank you for being apparently one of the very few people who actually understand this point. :( - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 10:52:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.volant.org (phoenix.volant.org [205.179.79.193]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7458115086; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:51:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from patl@phoenix.volant.org) Received: from asimov.phoenix.volant.org ([205.179.79.65]) by phoenix.volant.org with smtp (Exim 1.92 #8) id 10IGjq-0005d0-00; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:51:22 -0800 Received: from localhost by asimov.phoenix.volant.org (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA15279; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:51:17 -0800 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:51:17 -0800 (PST) From: patl@phoenix.volant.org Reply-To: patl@phoenix.volant.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Dictionary To: Rob Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990303045313.B1500@net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This might sound like a stupid question, but how is it possible > to "copyright" a dictionary? I(c) mean(c), they(c) don't(c) own(c) > the(c) words(c), do they? They don't own the words; but they do own the wording of the definitions. It requires quite a bit of research to ensure that you have the proper pronunciations, etymology, and definitions. There is also a lot of work involved in compiling, typesetting, and proofreading. By protecting the details of the result, the copyright protects the effort of the compilers. > At the very least, it would seem that Webster's would be hard- > pressed to prove that somebody "stole" their word list. Not at all. Different dictionaries have different lists of words. They tend to intersect quite a bit; but there are sufficient differences to be detectable. This should be particularly apparent in the choice of which obsolete or rarely used words and meanings are included. (Map makers tag their maps with intentional small mistakes to detect just this sort of copyright infringement.) -Pat To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 10:59:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kewanee.net (host-127.68.galesburg.net [207.177.68.127]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2147414FE6 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 10:58:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from denny@kewanee.net) Received: (from denny@localhost) by kewanee.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id MAA68413; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:58:15 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from denny) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:58:15 -0600 From: Dennis Reiter To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? Message-ID: <19990303125815.A68370@inw.net> References: <36DD5C3F.A0FC6C1F@softweyr.com> <4.1.19990303180126.009bbba0@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990303180126.009bbba0@194.184.65.4>; from Gianmarco Giovannelli on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 06:02:32PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoting Gianmarco Giovannelli (gmarco@scotty.masternet.it): > At 17.18 03/03/99 +0100, you wrote: > >> TerryBSD lives! > > > >Terry? > >I always thought it was Chuck! > >ChuckBSD lives! > > Naaa, what about JordaX :-) > > > > Best Regards, > Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" > http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco > http://www2.masternet.it Now _THAT_ would be too cool......... Denny Reiter denny@kewanee.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 11:55: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7132A14F87 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 11:55:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 421 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999 19:54:26 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 19:54:26 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA01376; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:54:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903031954.OAA01376@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <41919.920485707@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 3, 99 10:28:27 am" To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:54:24 -0500 (EST) Cc: chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > Yesterday it was Windows only. Today it's Windows or Linux. > > "One, Two, Many". > > Thank you for being apparently one of the very few people who > actually understand this point. :( > I guess that OS/2 and BetaMAX being superior products were properly carried by the competition? FreeBSD will not be "carried" by the competition, and it must stand on it's own. (But taking advantage of the competition only when appropriate.) People seem to have a product herding instinct, and a critical mass is important. The only way that people can and will choose FreeBSD is if the product shows it's distinguishing features (in the customers face.) The very informed individual and/or company will often choose FreeBSD, but the vast majority of the public will likely not distinguish between FreeBSD,NetBSD,OpenBSD,Linux, etc. They'll just choose what is available and by name recognition. It is time for the low-life "in your face" attitude that alot of the Linux crew has had for a long time. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 12: 2:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rachel (mail.glenatl.glenayre.com [157.230.160.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2E83915489 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:02:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jhicks@glenatl.glenayre.com) Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com by rachel (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA09153; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:52:16 -0500 Received: from jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com (8.9.2/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA02753 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:54:17 GMT Message-Id: <199903031954.TAA02753@jhicks.glenatl.glenayre.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: OSS comes to computer telephony integration Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 19:54:17 +0000 From: Jerry Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Good news from the CT Expo in Los Angeles: http://www.eet.com/story/OEG19990301S0038 The code released by this consortium will include some items of interest not strictly limited to CTI, including an infrastructure for hotswap with CompactPCI. Cheers, Jerry Hicks Jerry.Hicks@Glenayre.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 12: 3:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A092A15096 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:03:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 6600 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999 20:01:47 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 20:01:47 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA01396; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:01:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903032001.PAA01396@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> from eT at "Mar 3, 99 11:57:44 am" To: eT@KryptoKom.DE (eT) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:01:45 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org eT said: > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am wondering > why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first place? could it be that > the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly operating system than > FreeBSD? and that because of this new users are more susceptible to > using it? > > i mean, just all the different versions of linux out there would make me > think twice about even starting off with it? > > is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? > > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant > of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more > than ever before! > IMO, the BSD people have generally more dignity and are generally older. The few that are aggressive like the Linux/GPL crew are not considered to be part of the clique. The problems with advocacy are not in the name, but in a false sense of what is needed to make it in the marketplace. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 12: 6:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B46E14F3A for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:06:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 10868 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999 20:05:59 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 20:05:59 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA01405; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:05:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903032005.PAA01405@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Active advocacy [Was: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...?] In-Reply-To: <36DCD2FF.5F47940D@uswest.net> from Nocturne at "Mar 2, 99 10:13:19 pm" To: dpilgrim@uswest.net (Nocturne) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:05:59 -0500 (EST) Cc: toor@dyson.iquest.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nocturne said: > "John S. Dyson" wrote: > > > You should have recommended FreeBSD, and when his friends start > > > asking, try to get them to switch. Your actions follow suit > > > with the lack of advocacy you're complaining about. Sheeple > > > logic doesn't work. > > > > > I care more about my Dad not getting frustrated than I do > > about FreeBSD. Maybe he doesn't want to be a pioneer (which > > he doesn't.) Each problem needs a different solution, and > > there are still cases where I would tell a friend to use > > WinNT, because I care about them. To me, it is an issue of > > honesty, and support. > > Had you recommended FreeBSD, and he had grown frustrated or shown a > lack of interest, you would have been able to say that you had at > least tried and offered. > And my Dad would go back to '95 or upgrade to the latest windows code. The barrier of having to be an island is sufficient to cause avoidance. Maybe he would install Linux, but he has a wife who also wants a really running system. Installing non-supported Linux apps isn't a pretty notion for an end user situation. > > Instead you made a judgment based on > perception, not real truth. > Sorry, but the real truth is the clique that he is involved in. As time goes on (in age), the need or desire to advocate often wanes. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 12: 8:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F40DC14F3A for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:07:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 4266 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999 19:58:49 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 19:58:49 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA01384; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:58:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903031958.OAA01384@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Crongratulations to all at USENIX In-Reply-To: <19990303230221.A11032@ska.bsn> from Andy Newman at "Mar 3, 99 11:02:21 pm" To: atrn@zeta.org.au (Andy Newman) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:58:47 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andy Newman said: > Looked at the program for the USENIX Technical Conference today and > was happy to see FreeBSD well represented. Well done people. Pity I > can't afford the airfare to witness it. > Yes, from the technical side, FreeBSD is doing well. IMO, several of the FreeBSD crew are among the brightest and best OS developers that there are. FreeBSD's future is not hanging on technical excellence right now, but on marketing. The technical excellence is a given. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 12:12:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8543814F9F for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:12:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 15367 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999 20:11:15 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 20:11:15 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA01416; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:11:13 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903032011.PAA01416@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <19990303224958.A3681@corp.au.triax.com> from Jim Mock at "Mar 3, 99 10:49:59 pm" To: jim@corp.au.triax.com Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:11:13 -0500 (EST) Cc: eT@KryptoKom.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jim Mock said: > On Wed, 03 Mar 1999 at 11:57:44 +0100, eT wrote: > > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am > > wondering why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first > > place? > > Plain and simple.. publicity. Linux is what's talked about in the > news. Alot of people don't even know they have any other options. > Blame it on the media.. it seems they like to call all free unices > "Linux". > "Blame it on the media?" Nope, it is a problem with exposure, and the media being as "lazy"* as it is, they do need to be schmoozed and spoon-fed. Part of PR is being part of the "network". * By "lazy" I mean will not dig deep, if on the surface the info looks complete. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 12:53:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7984F15190; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:53:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA09089; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 12:46:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199903032046.MAA09089@rah.star-gate.com> To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: jim@corp.au.triax.com, eT@KryptoKom.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Mar 1999 15:11:13 EST." <199903032011.PAA01416@y.dyson.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:46:46 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Perhaps if have a a SWAT press team to attack or educate those lazy reporters they may think twice about only writing about L****. SWAT press team come equip with the latest literature on FreeBSD and a standard treatise on BSD vs. GPL . Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 13:19:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lambic.physics.montana.edu (lambic.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.128]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74FED15477 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:19:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from handy@lambic.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (handy@localhost) by lambic.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id OAA08764 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:18:52 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from handy@lambic.physics.montana.edu) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:18:52 -0700 (MST) From: Brian Handy To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Whither Applixware? Message-ID: X-files: The truth is out there MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey folks, Just to ask a stupid question...what's up with the Applixware port? I remember the announcement, I remember sending in my credit card number, I remember words that "we're working on it..." And then on the web page I see it's not due out until November. (I'm guessing November 1999, but who knows.) November??? Can this be real??? Wondering, Brian To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 13:46:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA929154E4 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:46:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA02299; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 13:45:53 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36DDADBF.BFCCBAFE@seattleu.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 13:46:39 -0800 From: Eric Hodel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: rick hamell Cc: Rob , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Dictionary References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org rick hamell wrote: > > > This might sound like a stupid question, but how is it possible > > to "copyright" a dictionary? I(c) mean(c), they(c) don't(c) own(c) > > the(c) words(c), do they? > > At the very least, it would seem that Webster's would be hard- > > pressed to prove that somebody "stole" their word list. > > Not really, Websters tends to define words differently then other > dictionary compaines. As such they could easily prove that a list of > words is 'thier's.' It would be nice to have a more up to date list, but > until someone has the time to sit down and enter them.... perhaps there > is already an onnline resource that 'we' could borrow from? I know there > are tons of scrabble dictionaries onnline... > > Rick Actually, dictionaries have non-real words in the dictionary, say like Foomeister and define it with some non-definition, like: foomeister (n.) [from the Latin foumize] - To read fortune -o for days at a time Then if anybody copies the dictionary, you just have to have your lawyer ask you "What is the meaning of foomeister?" and you can reply "It has no meaning." he will say "How is that? It says right here in your dictionary 'blah.'" and you reply, "It is a fake word, and means nothing at all. I only put it in there to catch plagarists." Case closed. -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu Where do you want to go today? http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 14:34:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0AC15240; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:34:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id HAA01888; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:34:11 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DDAC44.A54AF2C9@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:40:20 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Yost Cc: eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dave Yost wrote: > > But seriously, there's a totally great name out there waiting to be discovered. Beastie! This might be appropriate for -chat (I wouldn't know), but silly waste of our time is not really -advocacy material, no matter how much we seek to prove otherwise. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 14:34:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A03314FBC; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:34:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id HAA01900; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:34:17 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DDAD74.33EF597A@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:45:24 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Louis Bertrand Cc: Jim Mock , eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Louis Bertrand wrote: > > > Eh? How does Linux sound more user-friendly? > > > > 1) Because it's associated with a real person's name, whose hype as a > philantropic boy-genius from Finland catches the attention of non-techies > (may it's that Mozart thing...). I'm not running Linus down -- he is > articulate and media-savvy and has a lot to do with the success of Linux. > > But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in > trouble with Nike. > > 2) Because a name is one of the hardest things to remember about a person > -- it's an arbitrary choice by parents, and not tied back to a physical > characteristic. Hence you try to make the name representative and > associated with mnemonic clues (Linux -> Linus) A big no-no in marketing > is using initials (IBM is big > enough to get away with it -- a freenix OS isn't). Try explaining BSD to a > non-techie, then quiz him/her the next day. If they even remember the > name, you'll get DBS, BBS, BSB... Hence you use something that evokes a > warm fuzzy response and you're more likely to be remembered. Media scribes > are like the rest of us: over-worked and underpaid. You need to catch > their attention. Well, since FreeBSD is not changing it's name, I think we won't know the answer until Mr. Lambert finally releases TerryBSD. ;-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 14:35: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DB715640; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:35:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id HAA01907; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:34:21 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <36DDADCC.B6ED12B8@newsguy.com> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 06:46:52 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Louis Bertrand , Jim Mock , eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <36DD5C3F.A0FC6C1F@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters wrote: > > > But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in > > trouble with Nike. > > TerryBSD lives! DAMN! You beat me to it! :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "FreeBSD is Yoda, Linux is Luke Skywalker." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 14:45:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089FC1567A for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 14:45:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from outpost.co.nz (b001-m006-p055.wgtn.clear.net.nz [203.167.241.119]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id LAA18367; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:45:23 +1300 (NZDT) Message-Id: <199903032245.LAA18367@fep1-orange.clear.net.nz> Received: (qmail 9893 invoked from network); 3 Mar 1999 22:16:44 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.acme.gen.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by evil-smelling-bugger.acme.gen.nz with SMTP; 3 Mar 1999 22:16:44 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:16:16 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers-digest V4 #414 Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew Dillow wrote: > Ok, we're making progress. I found a major bug ( that Julian is > committing now ). Hmmm, no wonder FreeBSD is having problems with technical advancement!! -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 15:24:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stratos.net (pm3-7-22.stratos.net [207.86.133.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8757D15716 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:22:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) Received: (from drifter@localhost) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA18575; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:18:54 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from drifter) Message-ID: <19990303181853.B12020@net> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:18:53 -0500 From: Rob To: rick hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Dictionary References: <19990303045313.B1500@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from rick hamell on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 02:22:43AM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 02:22:43AM -0800, rick hamell wrote: > > > This might sound like a stupid question, but how is it possible > > to "copyright" a dictionary? I(c) mean(c), they(c) don't(c) own(c) > > the(c) words(c), do they? > > At the very least, it would seem that Webster's would be hard- > > pressed to prove that somebody "stole" their word list. > > Not really, Websters tends to define words differently then other > dictionary compaines. As such they could easily prove that a list of > words is 'thier's.' It would be nice to have a more up to date list, but > until someone has the time to sit down and enter them.... perhaps there > is already an onnline resource that 'we' could borrow from? I know there > are tons of scrabble dictionaries onnline... > > > Rick Actually, I wasn't talking about copying the definitions, just using the words in a list. But I suppose that can be proven as well, still it did seem kind of funny when you think about it. So, anyone have suggestions for a word list? I'll give a few of my own: aardvark ant apple ... I'll even offer it under the BSDL :) -Rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 15:57:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B49D14C21 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 15:57:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA08217; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:57:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990303185721.A6776@netmonger.net> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:57:21 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Dictionary Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990303045313.B1500@net> <19990303181853.B12020@net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19990303181853.B12020@net>; from Rob on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 06:18:53PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This being 1999, one could write a trivial web crawler which produces a very large list of words. One could require that such words appear on at least X web pages, to try to weed some portion of the spelling errors and obscure terms. One could then remove the ones which already appear in the dictionary, sort the remainder by frequency, and manually examine them for possible inclusion in a dictionary supplement. It should be possible to do this in a way that results in a large proportion of the commonly-used-but-not-in-the-current-dictionary words being up front, so they can be added early. Eventually, I think it would be too much boring work to have to look up words like skrjabingylus for someone who isn't being paid to do it. -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 16:15:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 371C914D5D; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:15:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA18199; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:15:20 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd018151; Wed Mar 3 17:15:17 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23340; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:15:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903040015.RAA23340@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: what's in a name? To: nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:15:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: eT@KryptoKom.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG" at Mar 3, 99 10:15:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Without an image behind it, a name is nothing. Obey your thirst. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 16:17:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC157151EC; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:17:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA10776; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:16:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd010731; Wed Mar 3 17:16:39 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23442; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:16:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903040016.RAA23442@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: what's in a name? To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:16:35 +0000 (GMT) Cc: louis@signalpath.on.ca, jim@corp.au.triax.com, eT@KryptoKom.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36DD5C3F.A0FC6C1F@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Mar 3, 99 08:58:55 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in > > trouble with Nike. > > TerryBSD lives! I prefer Win/BSD. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 16:18: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEABB15635 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:18:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA26225; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:17:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd026176; Wed Mar 3 17:17:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23476; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:17:30 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903040017.RAA23476@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: what's in a name? To: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it (Gianmarco Giovannelli) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:17:30 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990303180126.009bbba0@194.184.65.4> from "Gianmarco Giovannelli" at Mar 3, 99 06:02:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Naaa, what about JordaX :-) "Err Jordan"... "To Err is human". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 16:19:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A001815681; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:19:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA19968; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:19:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd019873; Wed Mar 3 17:19:16 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA23544; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:19:13 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903040019.RAA23544@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: what's in a name? To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:19:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, jim@corp.au.triax.com, eT@KryptoKom.DE, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, hasty@rah.star-gate.com In-Reply-To: <199903032046.MAA09089@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Mar 3, 99 12:46:46 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Perhaps if have a a SWAT press team to attack or educate those lazy > reporters they may think twice about only writing about L****. > > SWAT press team come equip with the latest literature on FreeBSD and > a standard treatise on BSD vs. GPL . Don't look at me. I was in the only picture of Windows Refund Day published by the NY Times, wearing my blue Daemon shirt. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 16:38:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD4B14DFF for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 16:38:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA02417; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:38:17 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:38:17 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG Cc: eT , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: what's in a name? Message-ID: <19990303183817.G25217@futuresouth.com> References: <36DD15A7.DB479EDB@kryptokom.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:15:22PM +1100 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Die -advocacy crosspost! ;] On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:15:22PM +1100, a little birdie told me that nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG remarked > Without an image behind it, a name is nothing. Bull. Xerox. PC. DOS. Viagra even ;> --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 17:52:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 264F714FF7 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 17:52:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA03992; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:21:52 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA10669; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:21:51 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990304122150.V441@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 12:21:50 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens , eT Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Windows NT3.1 really works! References: <36DD03FB.E48F9051@kryptokom.de> <36DD099F.3DC701E3@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <36DD099F.3DC701E3@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:06:24AM +0000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 3 March 1999 at 10:06:24 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > eT wrote: >> >> hey guys! must say i knew that there was something good about NT3.1. >> >> for a long time i had this problem on my desk. no matter how hard i tried >> to stir my coffee gently, i always seem to leave these coffee stains/rings >> on my desk. well, no more! a friend of mine gave me a few NT3.1 CD's >> and ever since, by carefully placing the coffee mug on the CD whenever >> not drinking from it, no more stains! the stains are successfully blocked >> by NT3.1. >> > > You're still putting your coffee cup on the desk?. The problem of > coffee stains on desks was addressed by PC manufacturers years ago. > There should be a little button on the front of your PC. Press it, and > out will slide a small tray for you to put your cup on ;-) > >> question is, will this work for NT4.x? >> > > Don't see why not Beware! See http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99feb/19990228.html for possible pitfalls. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 18:12:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E24261500B for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:05:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.37]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA1432 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:03:59 -0500 Message-ID: <36DDACB4.629BE5B7@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 16:42:12 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: The GPL might kill itself ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Too beautiful to be true, but according to the GPL's objective, no code without source code availability should be included in/with the Linux kernel . This basicly kills two projects (under Linux): UDI and MOSIX. Look, for example at: http://www.mosix.cs.huji.ac.il/txt_gpl.html If Linux and the FSF don't surrender their ideals, we could have a clear road ahead... Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 18:17:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from godzilla.zeta.org.au (godzilla.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29EE714A2F for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:17:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from atrn@godzilla.zeta.org.au) Received: (from atrn@localhost) by godzilla.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA14038 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:17:08 +1100 From: Andy Newman Message-Id: <199903040217.NAA14038@godzilla.zeta.org.au> Subject: Re: Crongratulations to all at USENIX To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:17:08 +1100 (EST) In-Reply-To: <199903031958.OAA01384@y.dyson.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 3, 99 02:58:47 pm Content-Type: text Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Dyson writes: > FreeBSD's future is not hanging on technical excellence right now, > but on marketing. The technical excellence is a given. Although I didn't say it in the mail I was hoping to imply that this technical excellence be used as a marketing angle ... Which platform do researchers use for their Unix R&D? And why they pick FreeBSD. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 18:26:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7915A14FFC for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:25:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-67-119.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.67.119]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA29082; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:24:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from wghicks (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA11301; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 21:15:14 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199903040215.VAA11301@bellsouth.net> To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: The GPL might kill itself ? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Mar 1999 16:42:12 EST." <36DDACB4.629BE5B7@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 21:15:14 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A new license emerges: http://www.opentelecom.org/ They say that it is most like the Mozilla license... I haven't covered it in detail. I believe this is much bigger news, in the long run, than was the Netscape announcement. It's very likely to be good for FreeBSD since these will be often be server type applications and after all... FreeBSD: The Power to Serve :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 18:51:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.on.home.com (ha1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com [24.2.9.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B3AB14FB6; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:51:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from interlog.com ([24.66.17.104]) by mail.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail v4.00.03 201-229-104) with ESMTP id <19990304025110.CBMF14824.mail.rdc1.on.home.com@interlog.com>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 18:51:10 -0800 Message-ID: <36DDF41C.3230EB48@interlog.com> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 21:46:52 -0500 From: Paul Griffith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.7 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <199903040016.RAA23442@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in > > > trouble with Nike. > > > > TerryBSD lives! > > I prefer Win/BSD. > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org Hey don't give Microsoft any ideas. Next thing you know we have a MS Press Release pre-announcing WinBSD 2000 with Native Linux Support. I kinda like MyBSD "Have It Your Way" :-) -- Paul Griffith <> paulg@interlog.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 19: 5:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aloha.cc.columbia.edu (aloha.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA04B15142; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:05:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stuyman@confusion.net) Received: from confusion.net (dialup-22-2.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.47.86]) by aloha.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA27609; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:04:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36DDF831.B3B0604A@confusion.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 22:04:17 -0500 From: Laurence Berland Organization: B.R.A.T.T. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dave Yost Cc: eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Name doesnt do much, otherwise either CKBe by calvin klein would fail, or BeOS would be really popular. Go figure Dave Yost wrote: > At 11:57 AM +0100 1999-03-03, eT wrote: > > you know, this whole lin*x thing has me baffled. ... i am wondering > > why linux has a larger user/suport base in the first place? could it be that > > the word linux just 'sounds' more like a friendly operating system than > > FreeBSD? and that because of this new users are more susceptible to > > using it? > > Yes! > > Linux is warm and fuzzy, like Linus, the kid with the fuzzy blanket. FreeBSD is techie and acrinomious, acronymical. (Yes, I know, there will be a chorus of fans who like it to sound techie.) And it sounds like freebie, which has the connotation of el cheapo marketing. > > > is linux perhaps a more 'marketable' name than FreeBSD? > > Absolutely. > > why not let's change the name FreeBSD to some variant > > of linux? i agree that the time for advocacy has come upon us more > > than ever before! > > schroedix? > snoopix? > peanix? (this one makes me laugh) > blankie? > blankix? > > fuzzix? > > paulinx? > VitaminCeex? > > warmvm? > steamingvm? > > weenix? > geex? > geexooks? > wannabeex? > > berx? (not good for the U.K. -- well, it would make for a good book title: > berx for Berks.) > > ;-) > > I'm getting carried away... > > But seriously, there's a totally great name out there waiting to be discovered. > > Do you think Zip drives would have caught on as well if they had been called Bernoulli III? or FloppyXYZ? > > Dave > > Too much crazed wordplay for one night... > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message -- Laurence Berland, Stuyvesant HS Debate <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Windows 98: n. useless extension to a minor patch release for 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. http://stuy.debate.net icq #7434346 aol imer E1101 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 19: 6:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shibumi.feralmonkey.org (shibumi.feralmonkey.org [203.41.114.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8E1815054 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:06:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG) Received: from shibumi (shibumi [203.41.114.182]) by shibumi.feralmonkey.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0B247A3C; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:10:18 +1100 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:10:18 +1100 (EST) From: To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: eT , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <19990303183817.G25217@futuresouth.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Xerox: "If everyone appears to be using it, so should I". (typical market response) PC: Ditto. DOS: Came with above. Viagra: Who doesn't want to have sex? Nick -- "We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?" - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962) On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > [Die -advocacy crosspost! ;] > > On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:15:22PM +1100, a little birdie told me > that nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG remarked > > Without an image behind it, a name is nothing. > > Bull. > > Xerox. > PC. > DOS. > Viagra even ;> > > > > --- > > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd | > * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * > | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | > * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * > | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | > * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * > | middle yet" | > *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 19:14:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [192.139.81.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 609C61556A for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:14:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([192.139.81.180]:30212 "EHLO shattered" ident: "IDENT-NONSENSE") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id <61611-271>; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:15:17 -0500 Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:15:16 -0500 (EST) From: Alex Perel To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL might kill itself ? In-Reply-To: <199903040215.VAA11301@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > A new license emerges: > > http://www.opentelecom.org/ > > FreeBSD: The Power to Serve :-) Uhm. Is it me, or does that site look STRANGELY like www.freebsd.org? I suppose we can take this as collective flattery, but I find it disturbing. So can someone explain te penguin at the bottom? Very very nasty.. I smell a penguin^Wrat.... Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 alexp@iplink.net -=- (work) veers@disturbed.net -=- (play) Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 19:46:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (mail0.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79AB514C21 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 19:46:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-67-119.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.67.119]) by mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA03205; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:46:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA11643; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:36:17 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: veers@disturbed.net Cc: wghicks@bellsouth.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL might kill itself ? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:15:16 -0500 (EST)" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990303223610E.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 22:36:10 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 58 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: Alex Perel Subject: Re: The GPL might kill itself ? Date: Wed, 3 Mar 1999 22:15:16 -0500 (EST) > On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > A new license emerges: > > > > http://www.opentelecom.org/ > > > > FreeBSD: The Power to Serve :-) > > Uhm. > > Is it me, or does that site look STRANGELY like www.freebsd.org? I > suppose we can take this as collective flattery, but I find it disturbing. I don't know our SGML documentation format yet but my guess is that they both derive from a common ancestor. Nik Clayton could elaborate on this... The FreeBSD team has often stated that the resources of the project are available for the taking. Even if they had derived from FreeBSD I'd guess this is OK with the project. It *is* FreeBSD :-) > > So can someone explain te penguin at the bottom? Very very nasty.. > > I smell a penguin^Wrat.... *Shrug* I suppose that the person responsible for the site is familiar with Linux. I expect FreeBSD to be very popular with the types of developers who will be interested in this, be patient and lend us a hand with some good advocacy on behalf of FreeBSD. We don't need to alienate ourselves from the action. IMHO this is a project that is very good for FreeBSD. I certainly hope that some of -core get interested in the project as well. I believe very strongly that CTI is very late coming around to FreeBSD which seems to be a natural fit for those applications. Today's announcement of Microsoft buying into Dialogic has been largely overshadowed by this one. I'm thrilled! Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth. > > Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 > alexp@iplink.net -=- (work) > veers@disturbed.net -=- (play) > > Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD > == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 20:51:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from chopin.seattleu.edu (chopin.seattleu.edu [206.81.198.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B214E14DD0 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:51:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hodeleri@seattleu.edu) Received: from seattleu.edu ([172.17.41.90]) by chopin.seattleu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA15852; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 20:50:51 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <36DE1139.741651A9@seattleu.edu> Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 20:51:05 -0800 From: Eric Hodel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Viagra: Who doesn't want to have sex? Nuns, priests, other devoutly celibate religious fanatics... -- Eric Hodel hodeleri@seattleu.edu Where do you want to go today? http://www.FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 23:16:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shibumi.feralmonkey.org (shibumi.feralmonkey.org [203.41.114.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBBBD14CDF for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:16:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG) Received: from shibumi (shibumi [203.41.114.182]) by shibumi.feralmonkey.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 408BF7A3C for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:19:39 +1100 (EST) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:19:39 +1100 (EST) From: To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Organisation scheduling? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The company I work for has requested that a solution be found that will allow us to identify where staff members will be at a given time/date. This is primarily aimed at the engineers and consultants who are often onsite. One suggested method has been using Outlook's scheduler, which I'm hoping to avoid. Is anyone aware of another solution? Preferably with an html frontend/gui. Cheers, Nick -- "We all agree that your theory is crazy, but is it crazy enough?" - Niels Bohr (1885 - 1962) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 23:39:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CCA414DA4 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:39:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA19903; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:39:12 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990303120036.0097e260@localhost> Message-Id: <4.1.19990303120036.0097e260@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:04:24 -0700 To: Greg Pavelcak From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19990303084501.A27440@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> References: <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> <4.1.19990302210116.009fe670@localhost> <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:45 AM 3/3/99 -0500, Greg Pavelcak wrote: >> 1) The Raving Loonies. This is the fun one. You get to go >> totally over the top on public forums, starting flame wars, >> bashing and baiting the competition. Think "Team OS/2," but >> even more out of control. The more fuss this "lunatic fringe" >> makes, the better. The purpose of this group is really not to >> sell the product but merely to draw attention to it; after that, >> the next group takes over. So, it needs to be the most slavering, >> slobbering, fanatical, over-the-top kind of "advocacy" -- >> advocacy which sometimes backfires but GETS ATTENTION. Asbestos >> underwear required to endure flames. >> >I don't see how it can ever be good to become associated with >assholes and morons. No, you don't understand. The "raving loonies" are NOT "assholes and morons," especially from a marketing perspective. Their existence -- and the more the better -- gives the world a sense that the product is something worth being fanatical about. If an OS doesn't have fanatics, the world does not consider it to be worthy of notice or respect at all. The size of the lunatic fringe associated with Linux is largely responsible for its success. >You have this one backwards. You need loyal FreeBSD people to pose >as Linux and Microsoft supporters. These people can appear at >software related events all over the country, always drunk, always >rude, constantly urinating in public. They should especially target >FreeeBSD. Is Jordan willing to be peed on for the cause? Sorry, but that one won't work. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 3 23:39:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A3BC14DE4 for ; Wed, 3 Mar 1999 23:39:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id AAA19899; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:39:09 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990303115907.00978890@localhost> Message-Id: <4.1.19990303115907.00978890@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 Mar 1999 12:00:16 -0700 To: The Hermit Hacker , Nocturne From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <36DD11AE.7EE0CF6E@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:00 AM 3/3/99 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >Here's a thought...due to the whole QT licensing issue a while back, KDE >appears to have gotten a bad name in the Linux community. I believe >RedHat went from distributing/backing KDE to moving tover to Gnome, as a >result...now that that issue is under-the-bridge, so to say, why don't we >jump behind the KDE developers? And get them to jump behind us? I've proposed before that they relicense under the MIT X license and serve as the default desktop for FreeBSD. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 0:56:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F29A14DD1 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:54:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA43606; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 00:54:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: dyson@iquest.net Cc: chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 03 Mar 1999 14:54:24 EST." <199903031954.OAA01376@y.dyson.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 00:54:38 -0800 Message-ID: <43602.920537678@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It is time for the low-life "in your face" attitude that alot of the > Linux crew has had for a long time. Completely disagree. Many of the Linux people are strident and intolerable only because they don't know any better. We do know better and for us it would be abandoning the high road and most of our personal principles for some purely hypothetical short-term gain in mind share. Of course, by the time we got those users we'd find that our former users had left us in disgust and it wouldn't be a big gain so much as a trade. Do you know how many people (linux users) have approached us at Linux World to say that they appreciate a voice of reason amongs all the screaming young advocates there, somebody to add a little *balance*? Did you read ;login this month? There's an interesting rant by a Linux advocate about how much he hates everything you and Brett have been suggesting WRT the foaming edge of advocacy. If you haven't read it, I suggest it. Do we need better advocacy? Of course, that's a boolean constant. Are we making progress with this? Yes. More than ever before, in fact. I'm not spending this week in San Jose for my health, ya know. :) Do we need an advocate corps of trolls, flamers and blatant scam-debate marketslimers on our side to do this? Most definitely not. Remember the old "we had to destroy the village in order to save it" quote from Vietnam? That's the kind of insane logic trap I think this discussion's now heading in. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 1:24:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep02-svc.tin.it (mta02-acc.tin.it [212.216.176.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC1B114EEB for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 01:24:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from molter@tin.it) Received: from nympha.ecomotor.it ([212.216.29.97]) by fep02-svc.tin.it (InterMail v4.0 201-221-105) with SMTP id <19990304092414.SLTA5552.fep02-svc@nympha.ecomotor.it> for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:24:14 +0100 Received: (qmail 6253 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Mar 1999 09:23:39 -0000 From: "Marco Molteni" Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:23:39 +0100 (CET) X-Sender: molter@nympha To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: The GPL might kill itself ? In-Reply-To: <36DDACB4.629BE5B7@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Too beautiful to be true, but according to the GPL's objective, no code > without source code availability should be included in/with the Linux > kernel . This basicly kills two projects (under Linux): UDI and MOSIX. > > Look, for example at: > http://www.mosix.cs.huji.ac.il/txt_gpl.html > > If Linux and the FSF don't surrender their ideals, we could have a clear > road ahead... For those who don't know MOSIX, the following is taken from their web page: MOSIX is a software module for supporting cluster computing. The core of MOSIX are adaptive resource sharing (load-balancing and memory ushering) algorithms and a preemptive (transparent) process migration mechanism, that allow a cluster of PCs (workstations and servers) to work cooperatively as if part of a single system. The MOSIX software provides some SMP/NUMA functionalities in a scalable cluster of PCs, for efficient execution of sequential and parallel applications. I contacted them about a year ago. Do you know the platform on wich they developed Mosix? BSD/OS!!!! I asked them if they planned a port to FreeBSD. They replied that they were considering to move to Linux due _only_ to Linux widespread use (ie they understood it was a "marketing" move)! They started with a BSD kernel and then moved to Linux. Now they have problems with the GPL. Maybe it's the right time to contact them and remember them of what the BSD licence is! ;-) Marco --- "Hi, I have a Compaq machine running Windows 95. How do I install FreeBSD?" "I'm sorry, this is device driver testing: brain implants are two doors down on the right". (Bill Paul, on the freebsd-net mailing list) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 3:50:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from oitunix.oit.umass.edu (nscs25p18.remote.umass.edu [128.119.179.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51FF514E1D for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 03:50:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gp@oitunix.oit.umass.edu) Received: (from gp@localhost) by oitunix.oit.umass.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA00333; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 06:49:53 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from gp) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 06:49:53 -0500 From: Greg Pavelcak To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Message-ID: <19990304064953.A252@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> References: <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> <4.1.19990302210116.009fe670@localhost> <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> <19990303084501.A27440@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <4.1.19990303120036.0097e260@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990303120036.0097e260@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:04:24PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 12:04:24PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:45 AM 3/3/99 -0500, Greg Pavelcak wrote: > > >> 1) The Raving Loonies. This is the fun one. You get to go > >> totally over the top on public forums, starting flame wars, > >> bashing and baiting the competition. Think "Team OS/2," but > >> even more out of control. The more fuss this "lunatic fringe" > >> makes, the better. The purpose of this group is really not to > >> sell the product but merely to draw attention to it; after that, > >> the next group takes over. So, it needs to be the most slavering, > >> slobbering, fanatical, over-the-top kind of "advocacy" -- > >> advocacy which sometimes backfires but GETS ATTENTION. Asbestos > >> underwear required to endure flames. > >> > >I don't see how it can ever be good to become associated with > >assholes and morons. > > No, you don't understand. The "raving loonies" are NOT "assholes > and morons," especially from a marketing perspective. Their > existence -- and the more the better -- gives the world a > sense that the product is something worth being fanatical about. Well, let's see. When I see people at Packers' games in the winter with their clothes off, I don't think the Packers are worth being fanatical about, I think lots of sports fans are idiots. When I see e-mails of the `mine is bigger than yours type' regarding OSes, it reminds me that many people really *into* the software game are not just young but children, in more ways than one. Of course, I often notice that I just assume other people react to things like I do, and I turn out to be wrong. Clinton's presidency often brings this point home to me. > If an OS doesn't have fanatics, the world does not consider it to > be worthy of notice or respect at all. Perhaps OSes are unique in this regard then. Although I'm sure that there are, for example, Michael Jordan and Stevie Ray Vaughan fanatics, I doubt that their talents very often get noticed and respected *because* there are fanatics. > > The size of the lunatic fringe associated with Linux is largely > responsible for its success. > Seems tough to establish this. Again, my own inclination is to disassociate myself from fanatics. > >You have this one backwards. You need loyal FreeBSD people to pose > >as Linux and Microsoft supporters. These people can appear at > >software related events all over the country, always drunk, always > >rude, constantly urinating in public. They should especially target > >FreeeBSD. Is Jordan willing to be peed on for the cause? > > Sorry, but that one won't work. > Actually I was just kidding -- a brief recollection of the G. Gordon Liddy school of campaigning. However, on reflection, I don't see why you don't like the idea. People should get the idea that FreeBSD is worth being fanatical about from the existence of people fanatically opposed to it just as well as from people fantically in favor of it, and on this approach FreeBSD doesn't get tainted by the association with fanatics. Anyway, my vote would be to refrain from being obnoxious, even if it sells. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 4:10:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A507D14E50 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 04:10:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 20993 invoked by alias); 4 Mar 1999 12:09:56 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 20968 invoked by uid 0); 4 Mar 1999 12:09:55 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 12:09:55 -0000 Message-ID: <36DE7814.3EECFF61@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 04:09:56 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Dru , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd supported References: <3.0.6.32.19990303215810.007c73d0@istar.ca> <36DE3EF1.6A7C1E3B@newsguy.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [redirected to -chat from -advocacy as my reply has nothing to do with BSDevangelism.] "Daniel C. Sobral" wrote: >Dru wrote: >> http://www.windowstechedge.com/wte-1999-03/wte-03-vmware.html?0301 >> >> Interesting concept. Even more interesting that FreeBSd is one of the >> supported operating systems. Think of the ramifications: users can compare >> FreeBSD to 7 other operating systems and decide for themselves. If a person actually wanted to run five different versions of Windows I'd personally buy them the disks and a nice quiet room at the local assylum... What I found particularly interesting what the host OS idea. Where you could have an OS running underneath the virtual platform providing services, devices, etc. What the performance degradation of using a Microsoft OS as the host would be I have no idea. The host OS could provide a serial interface for a winmodem. PCI sound cards that can emulated legacy boards could provide audio in FreeBSD and Linux without sacrificing advanced features in OSes that support them. Virtual hardware could drastically lower the cost of developing support for new tech. Switching hardware configs would be a simple matter of loading a new driver in the host OS. Imagine: Two monitors, each with their own keyboard and mouse, all plugging into one case, one console running FreeBSD, one running the alternate of choice (like an older version of FreeBSD--now there's an idea for CAMing 2.x SCSI drivers...) IT Nightmare or Economical Dream Come True? (that's assuming clashing software licenses don't trigger nuclear fission) My only concern is what happens when multiple OSes want to access the same hardware to do different things? Like one OS sending a fax when another wants to setup a PPP connection? BTW, for those who read it, who noticed that it was a WOMAN who founded VMware? In the words of my sarcastic ultra-feminist alter ego: GO CHICKS!!! :-) -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 4:18:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stratos.net (unknown [209.119.11.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D97A714EB5 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 04:17:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) Received: (from drifter@localhost) by stratos.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA29357; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:17:25 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from drifter) Message-ID: <19990304071725.B29308@net> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:17:25 -0500 From: Rob To: cjclark@home.com Cc: mph@astro.caltech.edu, bjc23@hermes.cam.ac.uk, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Dictionary References: <19990303045313.B1500@net> <199903031635.LAA05177@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199903031635.LAA05177@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>; from Crist J. Clark on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:35:43AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 11:35:43AM -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: > Rob wrote, > > This might sound like a stupid question, but how is it possible > > to "copyright" a dictionary? I(c) mean(c), they(c) don't(c) own(c) > > the(c) words(c), do they? > > At the very least, it would seem that Webster's would be hard- > > pressed to prove that somebody "stole" their word list. > > So I could make photocopies Websters and go sell them on the corner, > and you would see no problem with that? Greg Lehey's book on FreeBSD > must not be copyrighted because he does not own FreeBSD. Likewise and > book on history, science, etc., basically any work on non-fiction must > not be copyrighted. That's not what I said. > > Compilation of those words represents many man-years of > labor. Websters or any other entity has the right to protect that hard > work from plagiarism. Fine, point taken -- though I kind of viewed the copyright law as being more geared towards the final result (in this case a, an electronic file full of a list of words and no definitions) and its uniqueness (could you copy right a book solely with nursury rhymes with no additional essays or editorials?). If people used words everyday, I wondered, how could you copyright that, no matter how much effort you spent typesetting it? > As for the last point, taking the moral highground, I see, "I know it > is wrong, but I cannot be caught, so it is OK." But wait, there is the > ol' urban legend that dictionaries put in bogus entries just to be > able to catch copyright infringments. I was not saying that it was "OK" to distribute copyrighted material. I just said the general idea of copyrighting a book whose main material is a list of words was kind of funny. I wasn't trying to make a major point, which is why I cc'd this to chat... -Rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 4:24:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 366D214EB7 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 04:24:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 25595 invoked by alias); 4 Mar 1999 12:24:14 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 25575 invoked by uid 0); 4 Mar 1999 12:24:13 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 12:24:13 -0000 Message-ID: <36DE7B6E.482EE22@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 04:24:14 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? References: <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> <4.1.19990302210116.009fe670@localhost> <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> <4.1.19990303120036.0097e260@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > The size of the lunatic fringe associated with Linux is largely > responsible for its success. I think this has more to do with the fact that its developers make up the primary of body of said fringe. There's nothing more powerful than a devoted lunatic enboldened with technical knowledge of the object of her/his lunacy. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 4:59:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F46B14CA5 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 04:59:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id NAA11170; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:59:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04358; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:59:10 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:59:10 +0100 (CET) From: Marius Bendiksen To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If I wanted to run a Linux program, I'd install Linux. I'll pay to have > an Office Suite that is native... Dual booting with four different platforms according to task is a non-alternative. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 5: 1:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2D814EBC for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 05:00:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id OAA11549; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:00:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04386; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:00:26 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:00:26 +0100 (CET) From: Marius Bendiksen To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <41715.920483755@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > StarDivision to port to FreeBSD. I've not had a chance to try out > > applixware for any platform, but StarOffice works well enough to suit all > > Given my dealings with them up to now, I seriously doubt this. > It's not kernel threads that seems to be their principal issue at > all (it's market size). And they're porting to OS/2? Wierd. Maybe we could get some deal with them if we could offer to have some of our development crew working on it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 5: 2:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AF5C14F23 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 05:02:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.0/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id OAA11995; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:01:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04396; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:01:52 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:01:52 +0100 (CET) From: Marius Bendiksen To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Christopher Masto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <41919.920485707@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Thank you for being apparently one of the very few people who > actually understand this point. :( Actually, I'm sure many people understand this point. However, our efforts must be targetted at forwarding our own alternative. If we're content to just see someone provide an alternative, and fail to pursue our own agenda, our alternative will disappear. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 5:36:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat196.27.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.196.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 487ED14EFD for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 05:36:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA89223; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:36:11 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 09:36:11 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Brett Glass Cc: Nocturne , "Matthew D. Fuller" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990303115907.00978890@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 09:00 AM 3/3/99 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > >Here's a thought...due to the whole QT licensing issue a while back, KDE > >appears to have gotten a bad name in the Linux community. I believe > >RedHat went from distributing/backing KDE to moving tover to Gnome, as a > >result...now that that issue is under-the-bridge, so to say, why don't we > >jump behind the KDE developers? > > And get them to jump behind us? I've proposed before that they relicense > under the MIT X license and serve as the default desktop for FreeBSD. Why rely on someone else to "jump behind us"...let's jump behind them instead... First thing, we really really need to fix our port for KDE...I believe its been stated in the past that the problem isn't the KDE port, but ports in general, but you can't go into kde11 and type 'make install' if kde is already installed...ports has no way to determine that the older version *is* an older version, so it doesn't update things properly... Second, all the KDE stuff should be 'centralized'...create an x11-kde directory...give one place to go to to build it. Do the same for x11-gnome if you want...having to go searching through the ports tree trying to find the individual pieces is a pain. Third, improve the KDE support. A mailing list dedicated to it or something like that. I've been spending the past *long* time tryng to get koffice built, and with our current port, it isn't possible. kdelibs has to be compiled with --with-new-stuff enabled, but, from what I'm able to tell, our compiler is much too out of date to compoile with that enabled, and I hvaven't yet been able to do it with the egcs port either, since it doesn't install a shared libstdc++ :( Fourth, get it incorporated as an install option on the CD, seperate from but dependant on, X... Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 7:17: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF17E14CFE for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:17:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA17744; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:16:44 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990304101644.B15601@netmonger.net> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:16:44 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <41919.920485707@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Marius Bendiksen on Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 02:01:52PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 02:01:52PM +0100, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > Thank you for being apparently one of the very few people who > > actually understand this point. :( > > Actually, I'm sure many people understand this point. However, our efforts > must be targetted at forwarding our own alternative. If we're content to > just see someone provide an alternative, and fail to pursue our own > agenda, our alternative will disappear. FreeBSD will not disappear as long as we continue using it. While I would like to see as many other people happy and free and possible, I am content being able to do _my_ job. FreeBSD is free software. If Walnut Creek goes away, the software is still available, and anyone can still pick it up and make improvements. There may be people who work on FreeBSD only because they are being paid by WC, but that is not the only motivation out there. As for the other interpretation of your comment, there is a very _positive_ aspect of Linux running on IBM computers that I'm sure some people would prefer not to admit. Linux is GPLed software. If IBM has to change Linux to work with their hardware, they have to publish the source code. This means that we will have access to it. It is in IBM's best interest to provide open, standards-compliant hardware (they haven't learned from MCA?), but whether they realize that or not, their decision to support Linux will document any idiosyncrasies in the form of source code. One other thought. IBM seems to want to provide choices. I remember reading that they intend to provide a choice of Windows NT, OS/2, Linux, or AIX. I seem to remember reading on this list that FreeBSD's only obstacle is that there are some incompatabilities which are being resolved right now. This whole attitude that we can't coexist peacefully with Linux is annoying. Particularly when it mutates into "whatever Linux does, let's do the opposite". (They're using GNOME, so let's use KDE.. huh?) -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 7:18:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 58FE314FA1 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:18:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 11139 invoked by uid 1001); 4 Mar 1999 15:17:46 -0000 Date: 4 Mar 1999 07:17:46 -0800 Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 07:17:46 -0800 From: Bill Swingle To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Message-ID: <19990304071746.A11084@dub.net> References: <4.1.19990303115907.00978890@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from The Hermit Hacker on Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 09:36:11AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 09:36:11AM -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > First thing, we really really need to fix our port for KDE...I believe > its been stated in the past that the problem isn't the KDE port, but ports > in general, but you can't go into kde11 and type 'make install' if kde is > already installed...ports has no way to determine that the older version > *is* an older version, so it doesn't update things properly... This already works. I installed kde1.1 last week on a brand new machine like this. > Second, all the KDE stuff should be 'centralized'...create an x11-kde > directory...give one place to go to to build it. Do the same for > x11-gnome if you want...having to go searching through the ports tree > trying to find the individual pieces is a pain. From the description of x11/kde11: "This package does not contain anything by itself -- it is a "meta-port" that depends on other KDE packages. Its sole purpose is to require dependencies so users can install this package only and have all the KDE stuff pulled in by the port/package dependency mechanism." Check out x11/gnome-99.3. It's the same way. Just a a "heads up". -Bill -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- All right, brain, I don't like you and you don't like me - so let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you with beer. --Homer Simpson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 10:28: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 36C8915092 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:27:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 5314 invoked from network); 4 Mar 1999 18:27:00 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 18:27:00 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA99873; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:27:00 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903041827.NAA99873@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <43602.920537678@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at "Mar 4, 99 00:54:38 am" To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 13:27:00 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > It is time for the low-life "in your face" attitude that alot of the > > Linux crew has had for a long time. > > Completely disagree. Many of the Linux people are strident and > intolerable only because they don't know any better. We do know > better and for us it would be abandoning the high road and most of our > personal principles for some purely hypothetical short-term gain in > mind share. > The market pie is still growing, and there is a need for making one more visible. Those *stupid* Linux fairs do work. For one, I hate being around twitchy people though (they make me nervous.) A lot of them aren't twitchy, and sometimes you might be able to make progress with a few of them... > > There's an > interesting rant by a Linux advocate about how much he hates everything > you and Brett have been suggesting WRT the foaming edge of advocacy. > If you haven't read it, I suggest it. > I am not talking about "foaming edge", and that kind of comment polarizes. If you look, Linus and ESR are at that edge (and have been) also. In fact, ESR is kind of pathetic (from reports that I have read) in the PR dept. Maybe it is better to be pathetic than unknown? JKH, are you wearing a demon outfit? :-). > > Do we need better advocacy? Of course, that's a boolean constant. > Yes, and what has been happening for the last several years? Whatever has been happening in the advocacy arena, it is only the technical advantages (and some license advantages) that move FreeBSD forward. (Remember Beta and OS/2?) Those two failed due to marketing stupidity (in the case of Beta, it was early on that the fate was sealed.) > > Are we making progress with this? Yes. More than ever before, in > fact. I'm not spending this week in San Jose for my health, ya > know. > How many opportunities in the past have been lost? I see inaction for years, and only recently a little bit is being done. The San Jose Linux thing is on the *coattails* of Linux, and there should be no need for that. However, it is good that action has been taken, since the way things have been going -- there is now a need. How's about more interface with the press? How many press releases have been done over the last few years, and how often are they taken seriously? If there have done alot, then it is obviously not working well, and if there have been few done, then there needs to be more. How many phone numbers of press people does the FreeBSD PR person have? (And those phone calls would be acted upon?) It would be good if those results would be more apparent. (At least the CNN news items seem to appear for Linux.) Linux is the default alternative OS of choice, and historically, more than two predominant choices isn't a very stable state. (Microsoft isn't going away totally.) > > Remember the old "we had to destroy the village in order to save it" > quote from Vietnam? That's the kind of insane logic trap I think > this discussion's now heading in. > That analogy is fallacious... "We have to make some people aware of the inadequacies of other OSes, so they might be more open and choose FreeBSD - that doesn't have those certain problems." Also: "We have to make people (in general) aware of FreeBSD, so that they can sometimes make the FreeBSD choice by default." Both need to be done, and each of the above are being done inadequately. (Technical people sometimes utilize the second mechanism above -- but otherwise, the critical mass is in the Linux camp.) There is NO destruction here. This is a pincer movement, if done properly -- but it isn't happening in a way that it is on the map. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 10:28:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat196.27.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.196.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2064515081 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:27:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA93325 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:27:09 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:27:08 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: More ideas? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://lwn.net/1999/0304/pcquest.html "PC Quest (http://www.pcquest.com), with a print run of almost 70,000 issues a month, and an estimated readership of 3:1, has pushed almost a quarter of a million Linux CDs for free into the Indian market since 1996." Marc G. Fournier Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 10:30:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F8081508D for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:29:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA24073; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:29:05 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990304110928.00ba9b10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:28:35 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , dyson@iquest.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Cc: chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <43602.920537678@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan: While I understand that you personally would never want to be what anyone would consider a "rabid" advocate of FreeBSD, any product or project that has any hope of success needs at least some of these. Guy Kawasaki, who more than anyone was responsible for the marketing success of the Macintosh platform, has a lot to say about the importance of having fanatic supporters. If you haven't read his books, you should. Again, any product that doesn't have its share of pull-out-all-the- stops, rabid, wild, total FANATICS as supporters is not only unlikely to succeed but unlikely to be worthwhile at all. This is one of the standard benchmarks for a really good product: if it's worth anything at all, at least SOME people will fall in love with it. I'm not suggesting that YOU be such a fanatic or that you give an unconditional blessing to the actions of such people. But at the same time, as a level-headed proponent of the platform, you must recognize their importance in the larger scheme of things. Your part, as a "voice of reason," is vital, too, but again, it's only one component of the whole picture (just as the marketing types and press relations people are). >Do we need better advocacy? Of course, that's a boolean constant. >Are we making progress with this? Yes. More than ever before, in >fact. I'm not spending this week in San Jose for my health, ya >know. :) Do we need an advocate corps of trolls, flamers and blatant >scam-debate marketslimers on our side to do this? Most definitely >not. Again, Jordan, if you take a level-headed look at the history of successful products and platforms, you can see that fanatics are necessary -- in fact, vital. Linux would be nowhere without them. And the Amiga failed largely because it didn't have enough of them (as well as enough competent press relations people). The "voices of reason" were there, and it wasn't enough. This isn't to say that this contingent should descend to being "trolls, flamers and blatant scam-debate marketslimers." But the fact that people are fanatical DOES attract necessary attention and interest. That's when your cooler-headed group can take over and close the sale. >Remember the old "we had to destroy the village in order to save it" >quote from Vietnam? That's the kind of insane logic trap I think >this discussion's now heading in. The notion that you should discourage fanatacism is EXACTLY that kind of argument. Don't let your personal distaste for doing such activities yourself get in the way of the big picture. FreeBSD *needs* one or two raving loonies and a larger number of very eager boosters who are fanatical to a lesser degree. To restrict promotion of FreeBSD to the kind of advocacy that you PERSONALLY like to do (and are VERY GOOD at doing, I might add) will doom it altogether. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 10:35:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565FC15139 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:35:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA24130; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:35:16 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990304113144.03f2bbe0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:34:56 -0700 To: Nocturne From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36DE7B6E.482EE22@uswest.net> References: <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> <4.1.19990302210116.009fe670@localhost> <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> <4.1.19990303120036.0097e260@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:24 AM 3/4/99 -0800, Nocturne wrote: >Brett Glass wrote: >> The size of the lunatic fringe associated with Linux is largely >> responsible for its success. > >I think this has more to do with the fact that its developers make >up the primary of body of said fringe. There's nothing more powerful >than a devoted lunatic enboldened with technical knowledge of the >object of her/his lunacy. I agree, and we especially need those types, even if they do occasionally foam at the mouth, as Stallman does. (Have you noticed just how much press Stallman gets?) As Jung said: "Be careful when casting out your daemons, for you may be casting out the best part of you." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 10:47: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104E9150B3 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 10:46:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id LAA24245; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:46:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990304114332.03f29920@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 11:46:03 -0700 To: Greg Pavelcak From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19990304064953.A252@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> References: <4.1.19990303120036.0097e260@localhost> <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> <4.1.19990302210116.009fe670@localhost> <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> <19990303084501.A27440@oitunix.oit.umass.edu> <4.1.19990303120036.0097e260@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:49 AM 3/4/99 -0500, Greg Pavelcak wrote: >Well, let's see. When I see people at Packers' games in the >winter with their clothes off, I don't think the Packers are >worth being fanatical about, I think lots of sports fans are >idiots. Maybe; you'd be the type who'd listen to the "voice of reason" types. But many people's attention is captured by such fanatics. Folks say, "Geeze, if this is so exciting that those people are parading around with their shirts off in the dead of winter, maybe it's worth my notice!" >When I see e-mails of the `mine is bigger than yours type' >regarding OSes, it reminds me that many people really *into* the >software game are not just young but children, in more ways than >one. The MAJORITY of people act like children. They just act like different KINDS of children. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 11:21: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E3254150B0 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 11:20:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 26933 invoked from network); 4 Mar 1999 19:20:08 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 19:20:08 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA00172; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:20:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903041920.OAA00172@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990304114332.03f29920@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Mar 4, 99 11:46:03 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:20:08 -0500 (EST) Cc: gpavelcak@philos.umass.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass said: > At 06:49 AM 3/4/99 -0500, Greg Pavelcak wrote: > > >Well, let's see. When I see people at Packers' games in the > >winter with their clothes off, I don't think the Packers are > >worth being fanatical about, I think lots of sports fans are > >idiots. > > Maybe; you'd be the type who'd listen to the "voice of reason" > types. But many people's attention is captured by such fanatics. > Folks say, "Geeze, if this is so exciting that those people are > parading around with their shirts off in the dead of winter, > maybe it's worth my notice!" > Some people think that everyone thinks like that they do. As a (believe it or not, very rational person), I have seen and met my share of crazies. It seems that the #crazies >> #rational. (Not all crazies are crazy, it is just their style.) There is a diversity, and the "party" needs to be inclusive. Is FreeBSD the republicans of the free software industry? There is a difference between pandering and communicating. Just because a product is sold and marketed with enthusiasm doesn't mean that there is pandering going on. The problem with advocacy is that there are those who don't believe the message, but ride the wave of that advocacy. Some people communicate with zeal. I am one of the few people (it seems) that loves to discuss religion and politics with people in person. It doesn't degrade into hatred, but sometimes becomes "animated." Not everyone is made from the same formula. One of my favorite co-workers was a very leftist (communist) person from India. He probably doesn't realize that I appreciate him so much (it has been years ago when I worked with him.) I am right of center and am still tolerant. Please be tolerant and support people who might have a style different than the provincial view that all of us tend to create for ourselves. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 14:58:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DE925150E4 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 14:58:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 5232 invoked from network); 4 Mar 1999 22:58:18 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 4 Mar 1999 22:58:18 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA00582; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:58:18 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903042258.RAA00582@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <19990304101644.B15601@netmonger.net> from Christopher Masto at "Mar 4, 99 10:16:44 am" To: chris@netmonger.net (Christopher Masto) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:58:18 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christopher Masto said: > On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 02:01:52PM +0100, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > > Thank you for being apparently one of the very few people who > > > actually understand this point. :( > > > > Actually, I'm sure many people understand this point. However, our efforts > > must be targetted at forwarding our own alternative. If we're content to > > just see someone provide an alternative, and fail to pursue our own > > agenda, our alternative will disappear. > > FreeBSD will not disappear as long as we continue using it. > I continued to use ED Beta, long after it "disappeared" from the market. It isn't sufficient for a product to be "just used." -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 16:18:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47170150CC for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:18:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA27063; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:17:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990304170339.0404c800@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:05:28 -0700 To: Christopher Masto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <19990304101644.B15601@netmonger.net> References: <41919.920485707@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:16 AM 3/4/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: >As for the other interpretation of your comment, there is a very >_positive_ aspect of Linux running on IBM computers that I'm sure some >people would prefer not to admit. Linux is GPLed software. If IBM >has to change Linux to work with their hardware, they have to publish >the source code. This means that we will have access to it. No can do. If you use the GPLed source, you're creating a derivative work that must also be GPLed. >This whole attitude that we can't coexist peacefully with Linux is >annoying. Unfortunately, that's the attitude of those promoting and developing Linux. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 16:18:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60401150DB for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:18:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA27058; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:17:47 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990304165819.04049340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:00:16 -0700 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Christopher Masto From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <41919.920485707@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alas, as the American political system shows, the public actually resists having more than two choices. It's "one, two, too many." Software vendors are ESPECIALLY resistant to supporting more than two platforms, no matter how good the third one is. --Brett At 10:28 AM 3/3/99 -0800, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Yesterday it was Windows only. Today it's Windows or Linux. >> "One, Two, Many". > >Thank you for being apparently one of the very few people who >actually understand this point. :( > >- Jordan > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 16:18:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4176150E1 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:18:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id RAA27068; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 17:17:59 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990304171115.0404ced0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 17:17:04 -0700 To: dyson@iquest.net From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Cc: gpavelcak@philos.umass.edu, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199903041920.OAA00172@y.dyson.net> References: <4.1.19990304114332.03f29920@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:20 PM 3/4/99 -0500, John S. Dyson wrote: >There is a diversity, and the "party" needs to be inclusive. Is >FreeBSD the republicans of the free software industry? Hear, hear! >Some people communicate with zeal. I am one of the few people >(it seems) that loves to discuss religion and politics with >people in person. It doesn't degrade into hatred, but sometimes >becomes "animated." Not everyone is made from the same formula. Strongly agree. That's the reason I advocate having four PR teams with different foci and approaches. Someone who has a broad perspective and is a good communicator can help to coordinate these teams to make sure that every team that can make a positive difference is present in a given venue. For example, at a trade show, all of the teams would be out in force; however, in an online forum, (1) and (2) should be represented. >One of my favorite co-workers was a very leftist (communist) >person from India. He probably doesn't realize that I appreciate >him so much (it has been years ago when I worked with him.) I >am right of center and am still tolerant. Please be tolerant and >support people who might have a style different than the >provincial view that all of us tend to create for ourselves. Absolutely. Here's what I propose: Let's solicit members for the four teams, and get a leader for each. Let's then appoint a coordinator (or "opportunity seeker") whose job is to identify opportunities for advocacy and make sure those teams are alerted to them and show up. We can then take ADVANTAGE of the different styles and points of view by leveraging them all. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 16:57:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9AC2A150B9 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 16:57:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 17116 invoked by alias); 5 Mar 1999 00:57:08 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 17006 invoked by uid 0); 5 Mar 1999 00:57:03 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 5 Mar 1999 00:57:03 -0000 Message-ID: <36DF2BDD.4873FAE1@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 16:57:01 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: Greg Pavelcak , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? References: <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> <4.1.19990302210116.009fe670@localhost> <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> <4.1.19990303120036.0097e260@localhost> <4.1.19990304113144.03f2bbe0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:24 AM 3/4/99 -0800, Nocturne wrote: > >Brett Glass wrote: > >> The size of the lunatic fringe associated with Linux is largely > >> responsible for its success. > > > >I think this has more to do with the fact that its developers make > >up the primary of body of said fringe. There's nothing more powerful > >than a devoted lunatic enboldened with technical knowledge of the > >object of her/his lunacy. > > I agree, and we especially need those types, even if they do occasionally > foam at the mouth, as Stallman does. (Have you noticed just how much > press Stallman gets?) [...] If I could read C and understand what it's doing, and had a spare month to get through the key areas, I could become one very emboldened lunatic (I'm only timid one now) -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 18: 3:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5EDF715063 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:03:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 4974 invoked from network); 5 Mar 1999 02:03:27 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 5 Mar 1999 02:03:27 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA00351; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:03:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903050203.VAA00351@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: The GPL might kill itself ? In-Reply-To: from Marco Molteni at "Mar 4, 99 10:23:39 am" To: molter@tin.it (Marco Molteni) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:03:26 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marco Molteni said: > > They started with a BSD kernel and then moved to Linux. Now they have > problems with the GPL. Maybe it's the right time to contact them and > remember them of what the BSD licence is! ;-) > All it takes is an risk of the GPL people causing the problems that they have every right to impose, and alternative solutions will be sought out. People who take licenses seriously, and read them (and getting professional opinions of the effects) will be the best armed when dealing with free and errsatz-free software. Frankly, the best thing that would ever be for free software, would be for Linus to contact all of the contributors to Linux kernel and get agreement to relax the GPL restrictions, and move to a free license. Even if he wanted to, getting agreement from all of the authors would be impractical. The GPL keeps Linux from the free software world, even though it mistakenly and informally continues to be referred to as free, by those who cannot distinguish the difference between GPL and free, or those who choose to advantage themselves against those who cannot distinguish the reality of the ramifications of GPL. This (fortunately or unfortunately) leaves *BSD as the only significant free OSen for now. In the (learned) academic community, soft spoken advocacy is probably best, though. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 18: 6:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9C12615138 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:06:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 7899 invoked from network); 5 Mar 1999 02:06:09 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 5 Mar 1999 02:06:09 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA00360; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:06:09 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903050206.VAA00360@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Crongratulations to all at USENIX In-Reply-To: <199903040217.NAA14038@godzilla.zeta.org.au> from Andy Newman at "Mar 4, 99 01:17:08 pm" To: atrn@zeta.org.au (Andy Newman) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:06:09 -0500 (EST) Cc: chat@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andy Newman said: > John Dyson writes: > > FreeBSD's future is not hanging on technical excellence right now, > > but on marketing. The technical excellence is a given. > > Although I didn't say it in the mail I was hoping to imply that > this technical excellence be used as a marketing angle ... Which > platform do researchers use for their Unix R&D? And why they pick > FreeBSD. > So far, BSD is still in the game for research, but with Linux's predominance, that might change. The key to keeping share for BSD, is to warn about the GPL encumberances of research works. Any research organization worth it's salt will have legal staff available. The key here is awareness so that the licensing terms will be reviewed. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 18:52:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8E2015122 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 18:52:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA19440; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:52:39 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990304215239.A29789@netmonger.net> Date: Thu, 4 Mar 1999 21:52:39 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <41919.920485707@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990304101644.B15601@netmonger.net> <4.1.19990304170339.0404c800@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990304170339.0404c800@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 05:05:28PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 05:05:28PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > >This whole attitude that we can't coexist peacefully with Linux is > >annoying. > > Unfortunately, that's the attitude of those promoting and developing Linux. Brett, can we make a deal? Don't respond to my posts and I won't respond to yours. I think you are a twit, and you undoubtedly think the same of me, so I propose a no-fly-zone. -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 19:10:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463C215154 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 19:10:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA12459; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:10:06 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd012435; Thu Mar 4 20:10:02 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA22673; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 20:09:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903050309.UAA22673@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 03:09:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990304165819.04049340@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 4, 99 05:00:16 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Alas, as the American political system shows, the public actually > resists having more than two choices. It's "one, two, too many." Incorrect. The two party system is a macroscopic artifact of the electoral college, which was invented in the days when you couldn't have general elections because of communications and trust issues which are no longer relevent. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Mar 4 22:45: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4096914FE2 for ; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 22:45:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id XAA29954; Thu, 4 Mar 1999 23:44:36 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990304234347.03e51f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 23:44:26 -0700 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903050309.UAA22673@usr01.primenet.com> References: <4.1.19990304165819.04049340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:09 AM 3/5/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Alas, as the American political system shows, the public actually >> resists having more than two choices. It's "one, two, too many." > >Incorrect. > >The two party system is a macroscopic artifact of the electoral >college, which was invented in the days when you couldn't have >general elections because of communications and trust issues >which are no longer relevent. If that's so, please explain why two-party systems dominate in every democracy without a coalition government. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 0:41: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B505E150A3 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 00:39:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA16017; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:37:38 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA41731; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:37:03 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:36:53 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Christopher Masto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Message-ID: <19990305093653.B38288@bitbox.follo.net> References: <41919.920485707@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990304165819.04049340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990304165819.04049340@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 05:00:16PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 05:00:16PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > Alas, as the American political system shows, the public actually > resists having more than two choices. It's "one, two, too many." Wrong. The US political system is fu^H^Hrigged from the start to create two parties. This is the effect of having a forced choice of one representative from each area; "winner takes all". It also forces the two parties to be very much like each other. I've always believed that this was a deliberate choice by the founding fathers, choosing stability over having the political system match what the people actually believe. If you want an example of how you get a lot of parties, look at Denmark. (At this point I left my computer with the window open and hoped for some dane to jump in and finish off my mail by describing the danish voting system, but it didn't happen). Since nobody present seems able to describe the danish voting system in anything resembling reasonable detail and accuracy, I'll go on to describe the norwegian one, which resembles it and which I'm more familiar with. The country is divided into a number of counties. When there is a national election, the representatives are choosen by county - with each county sending about 12 (?) representatives (the actual number is somewhat related to the number of people in the county) to the equvalent of congress. These representatives are choosen according to the number of votes they got inside the county; they do NOT come after a vote in a smaller area. In addition to this, we have something called 'adjustment mandates'. These are based on "vote overflow" in the counties; they make up a total of about 10% of the mandates, I think. They will (by the laws of mathematics) tend to favour the large parties, but this is a rather small advantage. The result of the above system is a division similar to this (numbers are from memory, so bear with me that they're not accurate): Arbeiderpartiet (~25%) Fremskrittspartiet (~19%) Høyre (~16%) Kristelig Folkeparti (~13%) Kystpartiet (1 representative) Rød Valgallianse (1 or 2 representatives) Senterpartiet (~15%) Sosialistisk Venstreparti (~10%) Venstre (~3%) ... with the governing power held by a coalition of Venstre, Kristelig Folkeparti, and Senterpartiet. The reason that Arbeiderpartiet isn't governing (either in minority or in coalition with somebody else) is that they refused to take the responsibility unless they got some certain minimum number of votes. The reason Fremskrittspartiet (a populistic/liberal party, the one that is most similar to the US parties) isn't in the governing business is that nobody would cooperate with them. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 1:59:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C56C714DDC for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 01:59:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 93489 invoked by uid 1003); 5 Mar 1999 11:59:10 -0000 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:59:10 +0000 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brett Glass Cc: Terry Lambert , jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Message-ID: <19990305115910.A87593@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: <4.1.19990304165819.04049340@localhost> <199903050309.UAA22673@usr01.primenet.com> <4.1.19990304234347.03e51f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990304234347.03e51f00@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 11:44:26PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 1999-03-04 (23:44), Brett Glass wrote: > >The two party system is a macroscopic artifact of the electoral > >college, which was invented in the days when you couldn't have > >general elections because of communications and trust issues > >which are no longer relevent. > > If that's so, please explain why two-party systems dominate in > every democracy without a coalition government. Certainly not here (Democratic Party, (New) National Party, African National Congress, Inkhata Freedom Party, Pan Africanist Congress, and tons of others), and increasingly not so in Britain, I think, although my stats are nearly a year out of date. Of course one can always blame the two-party system (Republican/Democrat and Liberal/Conservative) on the insane fear of the evil red bastards taking over our country and destroying freedom whilst educating all our children and making sure noone starves. (Humour tags are hereby inserted for those without the ability to differentiate, and yes, I do think we can make easy comparisons to the current context) This is not to say that I think that we should sit back and enjoy being "one of the many", since as described above (in South Africa), you start to have "one of the too many". Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 2: 7:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from firewall1.lehman.com (firewall1.Lehman.COM [192.147.65.82]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF4815153 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 02:07:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nclayton@lehman.com) Received: from relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com by firewall1.lehman.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id FAA15433; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 05:07:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from lonmailhost.lehman.com by relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id FAA27535; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 05:06:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by lonmailhost.lehman.com (SMI-8.6/Lehman Bros. V1.5) id KAA28181; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:06:35 GMT Message-ID: <19990305100635.N5328@lehman.com> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:06:35 +0000 From: nclayton@lehman.com To: W Gerald Hicks , veers@disturbed.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL might kill itself ? References: <19990303223610E.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19990303223610E.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net>; from W Gerald Hicks on Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:36:10PM -0500 Organization: Lehman Brothers Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 03, 1999 at 10:36:10PM -0500, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > > > > A new license emerges: > > > > > > http://www.opentelecom.org/ > > > > > > FreeBSD: The Power to Serve :-) > > > > Uhm. > > > > Is it me, or does that site look STRANGELY like www.freebsd.org? I > > suppose we can take this as collective flattery, but I find it disturbing. > > I don't know our SGML documentation format yet but my guess is that > they both derive from a common ancestor. Nik Clayton could elaborate on > this... Not exactly -- our web pages are written in HTML, just as theres are. The general design and layout does look a little familiar (although obviously not as slick and well put together as ours :-) ). > The FreeBSD team has often stated that the resources of the project > are available for the taking. Even if they had derived from FreeBSD > I'd guess this is OK with the project. It *is* FreeBSD :-) Pretty much, yes. > > So can someone explain te penguin at the bottom? Very very nasty.. > > > > I smell a penguin^Wrat.... > > *Shrug* I suppose that the person responsible for the site is familiar > with Linux. More specifically, the machine hosting the website is running Linux. > I expect FreeBSD to be very popular with the types of developers > who will be interested in this, be patient and lend us a hand with some > good advocacy on behalf of FreeBSD. We don't need to alienate ourselves > from the action. > > IMHO this is a project that is very good for FreeBSD. I certainly hope > that some of -core get interested in the project as well. I believe > very strongly that CTI is very late coming around to FreeBSD which seems > to be a natural fit for those applications. If anyone knows anything about these sorts of applications, an e-mail to them that started something like; I was browsing your site the other day, and was struck by the similarity in appearance to the FreeBSD site at http://www.freebsd.org/. FreeBSD is another Unix-like operating system where the source code is freely available -- indeed, some would argue it is more free than Linux, because it doesn't have the GPL restrictions attached. [ and then start talking about whatever it is you actually want to talk about ] Might be a good idea. N -- --+==[ Systems Administrator, Year 2000 Test Lab, Lehman Brothers, Inc. ]==+-- --+==[ 1 Broadgate, London, EC2M 7HA 0171-601-0011 x5514 ]==+-- --+==[ Year 2000 Testing: It's about time. . . ]==+-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 7: 1:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AEC61514C; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:01:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA02393; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:00:48 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990305074539.00c10db0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 08:00:32 -0700 To: Eivind Eklund From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Christopher Masto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990305093653.B38288@bitbox.follo.net> References: <4.1.19990304165819.04049340@localhost> <41919.920485707@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.1.19990304165819.04049340@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:36 AM 3/5/99 +0100, Eivind Eklund wrote: =20 >On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 05:00:16PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: >> Alas, as the American political system shows, the public actually >> resists having more than two choices. It's "one, two, too many." > >Wrong. The US political system is fu^H^Hrigged from the start to >create two parties. This is the effect of having a forced choice of >one representative from each area; "winner takes all". It also forces >the two parties to be very much like each other. I've always believed >that this was a deliberate choice by the founding fathers, choosing >stability over having the political system match what the people >actually believe. Not so. There is nothing inherent in the works of the Founding Fathers that mandates or even encourages a two-party system. That system was later enshrined in law by other legislation (such as that relating=20 to elections and campaign funding) but not by the Constitution itself. [SNIP] >The result of the above system is a division similar to this (numbers >are from memory, so bear with me that they're not accurate): > >Arbeiderpartiet (~25%) >Fremskrittspartiet (~19%) >H=F8yre (~16%) >Kristelig Folkeparti (~13%) >Kystpartiet (1 representative) >R=F8d Valgallianse (1 or 2 representatives) >Senterpartiet (~15%) >Sosialistisk Venstreparti (~10%) >Venstre (~3%) Could you translate these names? I only know enough Norwegian to be able to figure out what a few of them are -- mainly via German or=20 English cognates. >... with the governing power held by a coalition of Venstre, Kristelig >Folkeparti, and Senterpartiet. > >The reason that Arbeiderpartiet isn't governing (either in minority or >in coalition with somebody else) is that they refused to take the >responsibility unless they got some certain minimum number of votes. > >The reason Fremskrittspartiet (a populistic/liberal party, the one >that is most similar to the US parties) isn't in the governing >business is that nobody would cooperate with them. If they're anything like EITHER of our parties, I don't blame them. I am not registered with a political party here in the US, because I cannot find one that appears to exercise good sense, foresight, and=20 moderation on even a fraction of the issues. Ironically (and, I might=20 add, as a result of laws which institutionalize the two-party system into the government). this reduces the power of my vote by more than 50%. Thus, the principled person who does not believe that a choice between only two menu items is a real choice loses out. My theory is that there is a Newtonian "action and reaction" principle at work here. All political systems tend to adjust themselves, within the framework allowed by the Constitution or other fundamental rule set, to minimize the public's ability influence them. All of this is severe topic drift, though. My original point is that most consumers of software, like voters, want no more than a binary choice.= =20 So do most developers when targeting platforms. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 7: 5:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fledge.watson.org (FLEDGE.RES.CMU.EDU [128.2.93.229]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C54D315181 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:05:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Received: from fledge.watson.org (robert@fledge.pr.watson.org [192.0.2.3]) by fledge.watson.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA11941; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:04:51 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from robert@cyrus.watson.org) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:04:51 -0500 (EST) From: Robert Watson X-Sender: robert@fledge.watson.org Reply-To: Robert Watson To: nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , eT , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 4 Mar 1999 nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG wrote: > Xerox: "If everyone appears to be using it, so should I". (typical market > response) > PC: Ditto. > DOS: Came with above. > Viagra: Who doesn't want to have sex? Wow -- that's a great selling point: FreeBSD: You can sleep with as many people as Chuck does. Hmm. I wonder what web server the Viagra web site uses (I assume there is one). Robert N Watson robert@fledge.watson.org http://www.watson.org/~robert/ PGP key fingerprint: 03 01 DD 8E 15 67 48 73 25 6D 10 FC EC 68 C1 1C Carnegie Mellon University http://www.cmu.edu/ TIS Labs at Network Associates, Inc. http://www.tis.com/ Safeport Network Services http://www.safeport.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 7:31:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210651516C for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 07:31:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id IAA02808; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:31:17 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990305082624.0095ef00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 08:31:04 -0700 To: Christopher Masto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <19990304215239.A29789@netmonger.net> References: <4.1.19990304170339.0404c800@localhost> <41919.920485707@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990304101644.B15601@netmonger.net> <4.1.19990304170339.0404c800@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:52 PM 3/4/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: >Brett, can we make a deal? Don't respond to my posts and I won't >respond to yours. I think you are a twit, and you undoubtedly think >the same of me, so I propose a no-fly-zone. Sorry, but to duck out of a conversation merely because you made the last comment would be awkward. If you don't want to be responded to in a public forum, it's best not to post! --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 8:28:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3206E1515D; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 08:28:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id JAA03398; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:27:54 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990305092628.00c111a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 09:27:40 -0700 To: Wes Peters , Louis Bertrand From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: what's in a name? Cc: Jim Mock , eT , FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Advocacy In-Reply-To: <36DD5C3F.A0FC6C1F@softweyr.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:58 AM 3/3/99 -0700, Wes Peters wrote: >I can if I deny there is a problem. I don't have any personal need >for FreeBSD to become a whopping commercial success; I do not seek >the validation of the marketplace for my choices in using and >contributing to FreeBSD. How's that for denial? It's not denial. It's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's not it's NOT! ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 9:50:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E66A15211 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 09:50:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA20200; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:24:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd020132; Fri Mar 5 11:24:11 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA08676; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:49:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903051749.KAA08676@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:49:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990304234347.03e51f00@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Mar 4, 99 11:44:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Alas, as the American political system shows, the public actually > >> resists having more than two choices. It's "one, two, too many." > > > >Incorrect. > > > >The two party system is a macroscopic artifact of the electoral > >college, which was invented in the days when you couldn't have > >general elections because of communications and trust issues > >which are no longer relevent. > > If that's so, please explain why two-party systems dominate in > every democracy without a coalition government. Corruption? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 10: 8: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB5C151F7; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:07:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA28876; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:07:13 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd028822; Fri Mar 5 11:07:04 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10136; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:07:04 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903051807.LAA10136@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? To: eivind@FreeBSD.ORG (Eivind Eklund) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:07:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990305093653.B38288@bitbox.follo.net> from "Eivind Eklund" at Mar 5, 99 09:36:53 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Alas, as the American political system shows, the public actually > > resists having more than two choices. It's "one, two, too many." > > Wrong. The US political system is fu^H^Hrigged from the start to > create two parties. This is the effect of having a forced choice of > one representative from each area; "winner takes all". It also forces > the two parties to be very much like each other. I've always believed > that this was a deliberate choice by the founding fathers, choosing > stability over having the political system match what the people > actually believe. Actually, Jefferson said "beware the folly of party". Ben Franklin had a number of choice words on the subject, as well. > If you want an example of how you get a lot of parties, look at > Denmark. (At this point I left my computer with the window open and > hoped for some dane to jump in and finish off my mail by describing > the danish voting system, but it didn't happen). The Australians use a weighted polling process, with roll-over. > The country is divided into a number of counties. When there is a > national election, the representatives are choosen by county - with > each county sending about 12 (?) representatives (the actual number is > somewhat related to the number of people in the county) to the > equvalent of congress. These representatives are choosen according to > the number of votes they got inside the county; they do NOT come after > a vote in a smaller area. In addition to this, we have something > called 'adjustment mandates'. These are based on "vote overflow" in > the counties; they make up a total of about 10% of the mandates, I > think. They will (by the laws of mathematics) tend to favour the > large parties, but this is a rather small advantage. > > The result of the above system is a division similar to this (numbers > are from memory, so bear with me that they're not accurate): In the US, there are "electors" equal to the number of senators and representatives of a state. Electors are chosen based on proportional returns. That is, if a state has 2 sentors and 3 representatives, and so 5 electors, then if 21% of the popular vote is for one candidate, 42% for another, and 57% for another, then there is a 1:2:2 division of electors between each of these parties candidates. The electors can vote for whoever they want. Because the electors are not direct representatives of a constituency, there is a fear that small states would be overpowered by states with larger numbers of electors. As a result, it is a felony in most small states for the electors to not vote for the same candidate, regardless of their personal choice (e.g., they are there as warm bodies, not as instruments of a constituency's judgement). It is this law, enacted locally, that results in the bipartisan nature of the American system. In general, we can trace this law to (1) the existance of electors -- the US is technically a Republic, not a Democracy, for the highest offices, (2) the fact that early returns are reported, and (3) the fact that all polls do ont open and close at the same time, Zulu, regardless of timezone. My prescription, should anyone care to hear it, would be: 1) Open all polls at 8AM Eastern Standard time. Close them all the next day at 8AM Eastern Standard time. 2) Make exit polling illegal. 3) Make early return (e.g. all ballots in in Podunkville, Maine) reporting illegal. > ... with the governing power held by a coalition of Venstre, Kristelig > Folkeparti, and Senterpartiet. > > The reason that Arbeiderpartiet isn't governing (either in minority or > in coalition with somebody else) is that they refused to take the > responsibility unless they got some certain minimum number of votes. > > The reason Fremskrittspartiet (a populistic/liberal party, the one > that is most similar to the US parties) isn't in the governing > business is that nobody would cooperate with them. The problem with coalition governments is the problem with the U.N.; when it comes to requiring teeth of any kind, they fall apart. You could actually paint this as a strength, in that it allows the system to recover hysteresis quickly following preterbation. But if attacked by an external enemy, it is most frequently a weakness, in that it prevents uniform and decisive action. Actually, you have to look no further than John Major's government to see that a coalition tends to roll over under external presure. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 10:10:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3583015200 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 10:10:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA29557; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:44:16 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd029385; Fri Mar 5 11:44:02 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA10364; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 11:09:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903051809.LAA10364@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? To: nbm@mithrandr.moria.org (Neil Blakey-Milner) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:09:27 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, tlambert@primenet.com, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990305115910.A87593@rucus.ru.ac.za> from "Neil Blakey-Milner" at Mar 5, 99 11:59:10 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >The two party system is a macroscopic artifact of the electoral > > >college, which was invented in the days when you couldn't have > > >general elections because of communications and trust issues > > >which are no longer relevent. > > > > If that's so, please explain why two-party systems dominate in > > every democracy without a coalition government. > > Certainly not here (Democratic Party, (New) National Party, African National > Congress, Inkhata Freedom Party, Pan Africanist Congress, and tons of > others), and increasingly not so in Britain, I think, although my stats are > nearly a year out of date. Besides which, given the existance of an electoral college, the US is a Republic, not a Democracy. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 12:13:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81BBA1522F for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 12:13:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.40]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA4743 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 15:11:56 -0500 Message-ID: <36E03AD3.F178DABE@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 15:13:07 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The GPL might kill itself ? References: <19990303223610E.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> <19990305100635.N5328@lehman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hmm...maybe I should send a message like this to Whistle.com : the last time I looked, Netcraft reported they were using a M$ machine ! Pedro. nclayton@lehman.com wrote: > ... > > More specifically, the machine hosting the website is running Linux. > > > I expect FreeBSD to be very popular with the types of developers > > who will be interested in this, be patient and lend us a hand with some > > good advocacy on behalf of FreeBSD. We don't need to alienate ourselves > > from the action. > > > > IMHO this is a project that is very good for FreeBSD. I certainly hope > > that some of -core get interested in the project as well. I believe > > very strongly that CTI is very late coming around to FreeBSD which seems > > to be a natural fit for those applications. > > If anyone knows anything about these sorts of applications, an e-mail to > them that started something like; > > I was browsing your site the other day, and was struck by the > similarity in appearance to the FreeBSD site at > http://www.freebsd.org/. > > FreeBSD is another Unix-like operating system where the source code > is freely available -- indeed, some would argue it is more free than > Linux, because it doesn't have the GPL restrictions attached. > > [ and then start talking about whatever it is you actually want to > talk about ] > > Might be a good idea. > > N To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 14:14:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cheddar.netmonger.net (cheddar.netmonger.net [209.54.21.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED12514CC4 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 14:14:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from chris@cheddar.netmonger.net) Received: (from chris@localhost) by cheddar.netmonger.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA23061; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:14:16 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <19990305171415.A22709@netmonger.net> Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:14:15 -0500 From: Christopher Masto To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: what's in a name? Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Robert Watson on Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 10:04:51AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 10:04:51AM -0500, Robert Watson wrote: > I wonder what web server the Viagra web site uses (I assume there is one). There is, but they don't seem to be up right now. :-) -- Christopher Masto Director of Operations NetMonger Communications chris@netmonger.net info@netmonger.net http://www.netmonger.net Free yourself, free your machine, free the daemon -- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 17:52:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aauu.aaweber.com (cs9340-138.austin.rr.com [24.93.40.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F69B14D78 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 17:51:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aaweber@austin.rr.com) Received: (from aaweber@localhost) by aauu.aaweber.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id TAA17716; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 19:50:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 19:50:53 -0600 From: Alan Weber To: "Roychowdhury, Debashish" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Business Alliance Message-ID: <19990305195053.B17620@austin.rr.com> References: <199903040535.LAA10710@gtlprimenet.globsyn.co.in> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199903040535.LAA10710@gtlprimenet.globsyn.co.in>; from Roychowdhury, Debashish on Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 11:05:22AM +0530 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 11:05:22AM +0530, Roychowdhury, Debashish wrote: --> Dear Sir/Madam, --> We are a IT Services company with core area of expertise in IBM Mainframe, --> AS/400 platforms, Client Server and Internet Technologies. FreeBSD is definitely an important internet technology. I am glad you are expressing an interest in utilizing this operating system. --> Our consultants have functional expertise in the areas of Banking, --> Insurance, Power(Utility) and Year 2000. We also have a R&D cell working on --> multi-media, Corba, Component Technology and Internet/Intranet. Among our --> clients are IBM Global Services, Perot Systems and Erie Insurance Group. FreeBSD also has an impressive list of clients including Yahoo, and is utilized in many industries for inter/intra net services. Look at the transfer records for ftp.cdrom.com and you will see that NT is lost in the shadow of FreeBSD. --> Globsyn Technologies has its marketing office located in New Jersey and --> California, USA. Our Software development center is located in Calcutta, --> India along with offices in Delhi and Bangalore in India. FreeBSD is not only used globally, but the development, maintenance and support operations are also global and available around the clock. --> Globsyn is rapidly expanding its operations globally and our focus is on Web --> Enablement of Legacy Systems and other development on Web related --> technologies like Java, Corba, JavaBeans, CGI & PERL. Our strategic alliance --> with Sun MicroSystems gives us the necessary confidence and resources to --> provide services on the above mentioned technological areas. FreeBSD also runs Java, CGI and Perl for much lower cost than Sun solutions. --> We feel that tie-ups and alliances with companies who have similar --> interests and goals is essential to grow and sustain in the vastly --> competitive IT Services Industry. We are very keen in working with companies --> like yours which can lead to mutual business benefits. We can tie-up to --> provide IT Services to clients globally specially in USA. We can very well --> be your back-end partner doing the resource / manpower management and --> providing you a very efficient and cost-effective off-shore development --> center. Our infrastructure in India is fully equipped to handle all kind of --> projects. --> You will find a number of projects on the web site at www.freebsd.org for which additional assistance would be greatly appreciated. --> We are basically looking for 3 different modes of operations: --> 1) Offshore software development. FreeBSD is currently being developed globally and would be able to work with your volunteers wherever they are located. --> 2) Onsite consultancy /Contracting services. You will find that recommending and implementing FreeBSD systems will be a profitable venture. --> 3) Providing skilled manpower. Again, Look at the projects on the web site and dive in. --> We have our own IBM S/390 mainframe and AS/400 systems and are an IBM --> Business Partner and BesTeam member. We have also entered into an strategic --> alliance with Sun Microsystems and Lotus Corporation for providing --> certification programs in JavaTM, and Lotus DominoTM /Notes, respectively. --> We have our own education wing - TechnoCampus, which is also known as an --> "IBM Center for Software Excellence", the only one of its kind in Asia. Having your own s/390 mainframe and AS/400 systems would be a plus if you are interested in porting FreeBSD to those platforms. Given that IBM is charging hundreds of thousands of dollars for the licenses to use their software on the s/390 architecture, a FreeBSD system could provide substantial savings for those organizations using the s/390 systems. As the AS/400 is just a glorified PowerPC platform you could work on porting FreeBSD to AS/400 with the Power PC group. --> Our alliances with all these above companies give us the necessary --> confidence and trained manpower for executing Projects on-site and off-shore --> on various technological platforms. Whatever manpower you can commit to the FreeBSD project would be welcome. --> If you need, I can provide you with more information on our company and its --> line of business. What level of commitment can you make to this project? Manpower, financial, marketing are areas of need. --> If this sounds any interest to you then please let me know so that we can --> initiate a dialogue on this ASAP. --> We look forward to your response. This is a response. --> Warm Regards --> Debashish Roychowdhury --> Manager --> Business Development --> GLOBSYN TECHNOLOGIES LIMITED --> Web site: http://www.globsyn.com -- When I was a kid I had to rub sticks together to multiply and divide numbers. A calculator was a job description. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 18:40:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9875715266; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 18:39:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA17293; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:08:13 +1030 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA09304; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:07:41 +1030 (CST) Message-ID: <19990306130741.N490@lemis.com> Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:07:41 +1030 From: Greg Lehey To: Bill Fumerola , "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: "Ron G. Minnich" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Microsoft dies after 47 days (was: Moving on and check out my .sig) References: <36DDB131.630AF7F1@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Bill Fumerola on Thu, Mar 04, 1999 at 01:54:43PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moving from -hackers to -chat] On Thursday, 4 March 1999 at 13:54:43 -0500, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > >>> Note my .sig. 49.7 days is how long it takes a 32-bit millisecond counter >>> to roll over to zero. It's kind of hilarious that nobody seems to have had >>> windows up that long until now. >> >> What's worse is that this problem looks obvious. I wonder if whoever >> was responsible for this part of the code did not simply think along >> the line "Windows running for 49 days straight? Get real!" > > A mentioned this to a few of my co-workers who responded, "what part of > Windows". Is there a page that has the gory details somewhere? http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q216/6/41.asp Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 20:30:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smarter.than.nu (lal-99-91.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.99.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DCC14DFC for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:30:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smarter.than.nu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA30300 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:30:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:30:24 -0800 (PST) From: "Brian W. Buchanan" X-Sender: brian@smarter.than.nu To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: A BSD-licensed GUI toolkit? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, Troll Tech just unveiled version 1.0 of their QPL (Qt Public License) for Qt Free Edition, and after a quick read-over, I don't think it's compatible with BSD-licensed software. Excerpt: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 6. You may develop application programs, reusable components and other software items that link with the original or modified versions of the Software. These items, when distributed, are subject to the following requirements: a. You must ensure that all recipients of machine-executable forms of these items are also able to receive and use the complete machine-readable source code to the items without any charge beyond the costs of data transfer. b. You must explicitly license all recipients of your items to use and re-distribute original and modified versions of the items in both machine-executable and source code forms. The recipients must be able to do so without any charges whatsoever, and they must be able to re-distribute to anyone they choose. c. If the items are not available to the general public, and the initial developer of the Software requests a copy of the items, then you must supply one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- First and foremost, this is invalid. One cannot assert a copyright on an API, and therefore they cannot declare that anything that will link with their library falls under their license. The previous clause, however, states ("Software" == Qt): 5. You may use the original or modified versions of the Software to compile, link and run application programs legally developed by you or by others. If one takes the phrase 'legally developed' to mean 'compliant with section 6', this means that BSD-licensed software cannot be linked with Qt, but GPLed software can. This, well, sucks. Basically, if one wants to distribute software linked with Qt, or that the end-user can legally link with Qt upon compiling, it must be released under a GPL-like license. So... I think that it's about time that a good GUI toolkit for X be developed and released under the two-clause BSD license, both so that developers like myself can release software with a clean conscience, knowing that's *free* and completely unencumbered, not just "Open Source(r)", and to encourage commercial developers to port their software to Unix/X11, as they would not have to purchase a Motif or Qt license, use some LGPLed library, or write their own toolkit from scratch. Would anyone here be interested in participating in such a project by leading it, hosting it, writing code for it, helping to design it, or in any other way? -- Brian Buchanan brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org daemon(n): 1. an attendant power or spirit : GENIUS 2. the cute little mascot of the FreeBSD operating system To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 20:40:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 438C514DE5 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:40:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25144; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:40:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:40:05 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: Brett Glass Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org YOu *REALLY* want to be the "Raving Loonie" contingent don't you? -P ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY ___________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:04 AM 3/3/99 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > >> If folks would like to see FreeBSD go ANYWHERE in terms of > >> market share, reputation, and installed base, it's time > >> to strategize. I've got a plan; who's with me? > > > >My all ears... > > OK, I'm traveling this week, so I'll need to outline this in > several steps. > > The first thing is to form several teams out of those who are > active on these lists. Here are the four I envision. (Each > will appeal to certain personality types, as you'll see.) > > 1) The Raving Loonies. This is the fun one. You get to go > totally over the top on public forums, starting flame wars, > bashing and baiting the competition. Think "Team OS/2," but > even more out of control. The more fuss this "lunatic fringe" > makes, the better. The purpose of this group is really not to > sell the product but merely to draw attention to it; after that, > the next group takes over. So, it needs to be the most slavering, > slobbering, fanatical, over-the-top kind of "advocacy" -- > advocacy which sometimes backfires but GETS ATTENTION. Asbestos > underwear required to endure flames. > > 2) The Voices of Reason. These folks also speak in public > forums, but apologize for the activities of the loonies. > They then offer carefully chosen studies and data showing > that the product really is superior. They present papers > at conference describing the superior technical features > of the product. Jordan Hubbard would be an excellent member > of, or leader for, this contingent, since he is already > doing some of this. But we need more. > > 3) The Salespeople. These people sell the product to OEMs, > VARs, and retailers. The idea: to promote FreeBSD as an > installation option on new PCs and to get it carried in > bookstores and computer stores. These people will be empowered > to offer free Web listings -- essentially, ads -- to vendors > that sign on. They'll also have a budget of free CDs to hand > out. They work with the next group to generate mentions of > these vendors in the press. > > 4) The Press Release Writers. This group generates one press > release per week about the product. The press releases are > essentially "pre-written" articles that are easy for magazines > to drop into the space they must fill in their publications -- > especially when there's a tight deadline. This group uses a > "shotgun" approach; it's unpredictable which press releases > will actually be printed in what publications. But they need > to keep them coming -- again, once a week -- and posting them > and mailing them as widely as possible. > > Netxt, I'll want to discuss what each of these four groups should > start doing. > > --Brett Glass > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 20:51:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1B2014E51 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:51:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25201; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:50:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:50:42 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: "John S. Dyson" Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <199903031954.OAA01376@y.dyson.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org at this point, I want to step in and mention a phenomenon that seems to be happening everywhere. It happened to me, and its happening to alot of people I know. X installs linux, X likes linux, Y says "Try FreeBSD", Y happens to be somewhat of a "guru" in FreeBSD, X respects Y, X listens, X tries FreeBSD, X *loves* FreeBSD, X starts to get clued and starts spreading the word. I think its this type of "Grassroots" marketing that works very well for us. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY ___________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, John S. Dyson wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard said: > > > Yesterday it was Windows only. Today it's Windows or Linux. > > > "One, Two, Many". > > > > Thank you for being apparently one of the very few people who > > actually understand this point. :( > > > I guess that OS/2 and BetaMAX being superior products were properly > carried by the competition? FreeBSD will not be "carried" by the > competition, and it must stand on it's own. (But taking advantage > of the competition only when appropriate.) > > People seem to have a product herding instinct, and a critical mass > is important. The only way that people can and will choose FreeBSD > is if the product shows it's distinguishing features (in the customers > face.) > > The very informed individual and/or company will often choose FreeBSD, > but the vast majority of the public will likely not distinguish between > FreeBSD,NetBSD,OpenBSD,Linux, etc. They'll just choose what is available > and by name recognition. > > It is time for the low-life "in your face" attitude that alot of the > Linux crew has had for a long time. > > -- > John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, > dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid > jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 20:56:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6389414D95; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 20:56:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA25248; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:56:13 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:56:13 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: Paul Griffith Cc: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: <36DDF41C.3230EB48@interlog.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Peter Philippe and I were talking about having a "MyBSD" thing going, but it was when we were disgruntled about support being dropped when it came to 2.2.8-STABLE stuff. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY ___________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Paul Griffith wrote: > Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > > But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in > > > > trouble with Nike. > > > > > > TerryBSD lives! > > > > I prefer Win/BSD. > > > > Terry Lambert > > terry@lambert.org > > Hey don't give Microsoft any ideas. Next thing you know we have a MS > Press Release pre-announcing WinBSD 2000 with Native Linux Support. > > I kinda like MyBSD "Have It Your Way" :-) > > -- > Paul Griffith <> paulg@interlog.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 21:12: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4022D14DFE for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 21:12:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25321; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:11:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:11:31 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: dyson@iquest.net, chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <43602.920537678@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > It is time for the low-life "in your face" attitude that alot of the > > Linux crew has had for a long time. > > Completely disagree. Many of the Linux people are strident and > intolerable only because they don't know any better. We do know > better and for us it would be abandoning the high road and most of our > personal principles for some purely hypothetical short-term gain in > mind share. Of course, by the time we got those users we'd find that > our former users had left us in disgust and it wouldn't be a big gain > so much as a trade. Thanks, I think this was my point, that we can gain those users but a different type of "marketing" alot of people that were jumping on the bandwagon with linux have changed to FreeBSD when they met someone who recommended it. I know three or 4 that are close friends of mine off the top of my head. There is a revolution, and believe it or not, linux seems to the gateway to FreeBSD. > Do you know how many people (linux users) have > approached us at Linux World to say that they appreciate a voice of > reason amongs all the screaming young advocates there, somebody to add > a little *balance*? Did you read ;login this month? There's an > interesting rant by a Linux advocate about how much he hates everything > you and Brett have been suggesting WRT the foaming edge of advocacy. > If you haven't read it, I suggest it. > It was kind of neat to be at USENIX with the FreeBSD crowd, within the technical crowd, we had a REALLY good showing last summer. there were about 50 hardcore freebsd people that all went out to dinner and got ripped off, and a bunch of linux folks that were genuinely interested in what we were doing. > Do we need better advocacy? Of course, that's a boolean constant. > Are we making progress with this? Yes. More than ever before, in > fact. I'm not spending this week in San Jose for my health, ya > know. :) Do we need an advocate corps of trolls, flamers and blatant > scam-debate marketslimers on our side to do this? Most definitely > not. > I think those types are really annoying, I think slow but steady progress is better than a bunch of fanatics. To just give you a few examples of the stupidity of some fanatics that worship the Icons of Free Software (tm), Me and my girlfriend, also involved in FreeBSD advocacy, were walking down Decatur in New Orleans at USENIX, and a geek runs up to us, running and trying to find RMS, frantically. He said "Did you see Stallman anywhere?", and my response was "Why would I notice another Dirty Hippie on the streets of New Orleans". Noone ran after Jordan that way at USENIX, but many people got a chance to sit down with him and talk on a social *and* technical level (I being one of them). I mean these people just *blindly* follow these people. Do I want people like this involved in FreeBSD advocacy, not really. Like I said, slow but steady progress, and the slowness is the price to pay for keeping our IQ level up. > Remember the old "we had to destroy the village in order to save it" > quote from Vietnam? That's the kind of insane logic trap I think > this discussion's now heading in. > > - Jordan > Thanks. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 21:24:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C513914DF1 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 21:24:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25372; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:23:41 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:23:40 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: Brett Glass Cc: Christopher Masto , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990304170339.0404c800@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The point is this : we can gain technical insights on IBM hardware (rs/6k) from GPLed drivers, we've already done it. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY ___________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:16 AM 3/4/99 -0500, Christopher Masto wrote: > > >As for the other interpretation of your comment, there is a very > >_positive_ aspect of Linux running on IBM computers that I'm sure some > >people would prefer not to admit. Linux is GPLed software. If IBM > >has to change Linux to work with their hardware, they have to publish > >the source code. This means that we will have access to it. > > No can do. If you use the GPLed source, you're creating a derivative > work that must also be GPLed. > > >This whole attitude that we can't coexist peacefully with Linux is > >annoying. > > Unfortunately, that's the attitude of those promoting and developing Linux. > > --Brett > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 21:33:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC9815068 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 21:33:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25429; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:32:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 00:32:42 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: Robert Watson Cc: nick@FERALMONKEY.ORG, "Matthew D. Fuller" , eT , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: what's in a name? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 5 Mar 1999, Robert Watson wrote: > I wonder what web server the Viagra web site uses (I assume there is one). There is one, but it seems to be down (NT?) pfizer's website is running Netscape Enterprise 2.0 on Solarisd according to www.netcraft.net. ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 22:29: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E51315051 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:28:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (zaphod.softweyr.com [204.68.178.35]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA15391; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:28:02 -0700 (MST) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <36E0CAF1.3192DDB3@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 23:28:01 -0700 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr llc X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Bill Fumerola , "Daniel C. Sobral" , "Ron G. Minnich" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Microsoft dies after 47 days (was: Moving on and check out my .sig) References: <36DDB131.630AF7F1@newsguy.com> <19990306130741.N490@lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > [moving from -hackers to -chat] > > On Thursday, 4 March 1999 at 13:54:43 -0500, Bill Fumerola wrote: > > On Thu, 4 Mar 1999, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > > > >>> Note my .sig. 49.7 days is how long it takes a 32-bit millisecond counter > >>> to roll over to zero. It's kind of hilarious that nobody seems to have had > >>> windows up that long until now. > >> > >> What's worse is that this problem looks obvious. I wonder if whoever > >> was responsible for this part of the code did not simply think along > >> the line "Windows running for 49 days straight? Get real!" > > > > A mentioned this to a few of my co-workers who responded, "what part of > > Windows". Is there a page that has the gory details somewhere? > > http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q216/6/41.asp What's the likelihood of keeping a Win95/Win98 machine up for 49.7 days in the first place? One of my co-workers opined that this is rather like warning people if they manage to flap their arms fast enough to leave the atomosphere they will suffocate. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 22:59:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from axl.noc.iafrica.com (axl.noc.iafrica.com [196.31.1.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF87114C35 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 22:59:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.noc.iafrica.com) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.noc.iafrica.com) by axl.noc.iafrica.com with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10JB1f-000I66-00; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 08:57:31 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Greg Lehey Cc: Bill Fumerola , "Daniel C. Sobral" , "Ron G. Minnich" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Microsoft dies after 47 days (was: Moving on and check out my .sig) In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 06 Mar 1999 13:07:41 +1030." <19990306130741.N490@lemis.com> Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 08:57:31 +0200 Message-ID: <69569.920703451@axl.noc.iafrica.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Note my .sig. 49.7 days is how long it takes a 32-bit millisecond > counter to roll over to zero. It's kind of hilarious that nobody seems > to have had windows up that long until now. Hi Greg, There they are worrying about the Year 2000 Bug and they can't even manage the Day 49 Issue. They do still call their bugs issues, right? I've been having great fun with all my Microsoft Certified Sales Engineer friends since you posted that URL. One of them started to argue that the Microsoft web site must have been hacked and a false support article posted, then dribbled off into mumbles when his brain caught up with his mouth. Thanks! Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 23: 9: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 63CEA15102 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:08:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 21002 invoked by alias); 6 Mar 1999 07:08:36 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 20963 invoked by uid 0); 6 Mar 1999 07:08:36 -0000 Received: from bdsl224.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.169.224) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 6 Mar 1999 07:08:36 -0000 Message-ID: <36E0D473.742A5C89@uswest.net> Date: Fri, 05 Mar 1999 23:08:35 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Pat Lynch Cc: Paul Griffith , Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [format recovered] Pat Lynch wrote: >On Wed, 3 Mar 1999, Paul Griffith wrote: >>Terry Lambert wrote: >>>>> But if you changed the name of FreeBSD to Jordan, you'd get in >>>>> trouble with Nike. >>>> >>>> TerryBSD lives! >>> >>> I prefer Win/BSD. >> >> Hey don't give Microsoft any ideas. Next thing you know we have a MS >> Press Release pre-announcing WinBSD 2000 with Native Linux Support. >> >> I kinda like MyBSD "Have It Your Way" :-) > >Peter Philippe and I were talking about having a "MyBSD" thing going, but >it was when we were disgruntled about support being dropped when it came >to 2.2.8-STABLE stuff. How about Freenix? Or has that one been taken/suggested already? -- dpilgrim@uswest.net ICQ: 29880099 gryph@mindless.com PGP DH/DSS key available If you're gonna build a house of cards, use the plastic coated kind Cuz I'll bet the homeowner's insurance won't cover flood damage To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 23:16:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01E9114D35 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:16:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA25085; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 02:16:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 02:16:14 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: Wes Peters Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Microsoft dies after 47 days (was: Moving on and check out my .sig) In-Reply-To: <36E0CAF1.3192DDB3@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mar 5 Wes Peters wrote: > What's the likelihood of keeping a Win95/Win98 machine up for 49.7 > days in the first place? Perhaps it could be done with no programs launched at startup, no mouse, no keyboard, no network connection, no serial or parallel port connections, no USB connections, no APM, and no screen saver? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Mar 5 23:54:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D1D114D35 for ; Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:54:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 27813 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Mar 1999 07:54:23 -0000 Date: 5 Mar 1999 23:54:23 -0800 Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1999 23:54:23 -0800 From: Bill Swingle To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: USENIX 99 [was: Guess we've lost the server market too...?] Message-ID: <19990305235423.A27578@dub.net> References: <43602.920537678@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Pat Lynch on Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 12:11:31AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 12:11:31AM -0500, Pat Lynch wrote: > It was kind of neat to be at USENIX with the FreeBSD crowd, within the > technical crowd, we had a REALLY good showing last summer. there were > about 50 hardcore freebsd people that all went out to dinner and got > ripped off, and a bunch of linux folks that were genuinely interested in > what we were doing. Speaking of USENIX, how many people are planning on going? I have never been but am really excited about going (or *trying* to go, gotta find the $$). The Freenix track looks really great! -Bill -- -------------------------------------------------------------------- All right, brain, I don't like you and you don't like me - so let's just do this and I'll get back to killing you with beer. --Homer Simpson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 1:11:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flax.cs.uchicago.edu (flax.cs.uchicago.edu [128.135.20.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 169F815162 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 01:11:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sfarrell@flax.cs.uchicago.edu) Received: (from sfarrell@localhost) by flax.cs.uchicago.edu (8.9.2/8.9.0) id DAA73389; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 03:10:55 -0600 (CST) To: freebsd chat mailing list Subject: RE: What are the differences between the BSDs From: stephen farrell Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.108) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Date: 06 Mar 1999 03:10:55 -0600 Message-ID: <87pv6ndluo.fsf@flax.cs.uchicago.edu> Lines: 24 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.42/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Hi! everybody, > I am currently running linux. I would like also to give a try to bsd > (frebsd, openbsd, netbsd). My question would what is the difference > between the different versions of free bsd compare to the different > versions of linux (Debian, red hat, suse,...). I do not want to compare > bsd to linux, both are free well build OSes, my interest is just in the > operation of the OS itself. > Thank you in advance for any answers. > Utheza Didier. > (ddutheza@bu.edu) I, and I'm sure many others here, have used FreeBSD and Linux and prefer FreeBSD. You may as well. In answer you to your question, there are many resources if you search around (say dejanews.com, google.com) that discuss this very issue. This might be a good starting point, however: http://www.sunworld.com/swol-01-1999/swol-01-bsd.html -- Steve Farrell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 3:42:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C74A14E78 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 03:42:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: (from brett@localhost) by lariat.lariat.org (8.8.8/8.8.6) id EAA12763; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 04:41:38 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.1.19990306043933.00c47d70@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 04:41:28 -0700 To: Pat Lynch From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? Cc: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.1.19990303025641.03ef9ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:40 PM 3/5/99 -0500, Pat Lynch wrote: >YOu *REALLY* want to be the "Raving Loonie" contingent don't you? -P Actually, I'm better at identifying PR opportunities, and so might be best at feeding information to the leaders of the subgroups. However, I could certainly be on the "Daemon team" as well. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 6:24:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 34597151BD for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 06:23:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 2910 invoked from network); 6 Mar 1999 14:23:35 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 6 Mar 1999 14:23:35 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id JAA00359; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 09:23:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903061423.JAA00359@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: Guess we've lost the server market too...? In-Reply-To: from Pat Lynch at "Mar 5, 99 11:50:42 pm" To: lynch@rush.net (Pat Lynch) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 09:23:31 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chris@netmonger.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pat Lynch said: > at this point, I want to step in and mention a phenomenon that seems to be > happening everywhere. It happened to me, and its happening to alot of > people I know. > > X installs linux, X likes linux, Y says "Try FreeBSD", Y happens to be > somewhat of a "guru" in FreeBSD, X respects Y, X listens, X tries FreeBSD, > X *loves* FreeBSD, X starts to get clued and starts spreading the word. > > I think its this type of "Grassroots" marketing that works very well for > us. > Well, that is encouraging... I wonder if that has enough impact to effect a critical mass for FreeBSD? Alot of Linux installations are "good enough", just as alot of NT installations are "good enough". In reality, the improvement of FreeBSD over Linux is often significant, but not nearly the magnitude of improvement that one will see in moving from NT. People do make emotional decisions, and what you show above is yet another kind of emotional decision (one based upon trust.) There are also decisions based upon hype, and market presence. -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 9:31:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2CFF15292 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 09:31:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.111]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA100C; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 18:31:09 +0100 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon.ninth-circle.org [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24415; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 18:32:03 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 18:32:03 +0100 (CET) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Brian W. Buchanan" Subject: RE: A BSD-licensed GUI toolkit? Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Robert Garrett Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 06-Mar-99 Brian W. Buchanan wrote: > I think that it's about time that a good GUI toolkit for X be developed > and released under the two-clause BSD license, both so that developers > like myself can release software with a clean conscience, knowing that's > *free* and completely unencumbered, not just "Open Source(r)", and to > encourage commercial developers to port their software to Unix/X11, as > they would not have to purchase a Motif or Qt license, use some LGPLed > library, or write their own toolkit from scratch. *nods* Very good points. > Would anyone here be interested in participating in such a project by > leading it, hosting it, writing code for it, helping to design it, or in > any other way? Leading such a project would be better off in hands like someone as Terry. I unfortunately am stuck at a company who has resources, which I cannot abuse for non-company related matters. I could however help design it, write code for it and document it. My current `experience' lies primarily with GDK, glib, GTk+ and Gnome with some Qt experiments. I would be happy to donate my already sparse free time on such a project wherever possible. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The idea does not replace the work... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 9:31:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8F3C15292 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 09:31:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA00692; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:31:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd000665; Sat Mar 6 10:31:20 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA00762; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:31:17 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903061731.KAA00762@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Microsoft dies after 47 days (was: Moving on and check out my .sig) To: sheldonh@iafrica.com (Sheldon Hearn) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:31:17 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com, billf@chc-chimes.com, dcs@newsguy.com, rminnich@sarnoff.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <69569.920703451@axl.noc.iafrica.com> from "Sheldon Hearn" at Mar 6, 99 08:57:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > There they are worrying about the Year 2000 Bug and they can't even > manage the Day 49 Issue. They do still call their bugs issues, right? Har. "Is your software safe from the Y0.00013616K bug?" Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 9:36:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DB8D15278; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 09:36:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA12963; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:35:59 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd012937; Sat Mar 6 10:35:50 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA01139; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:35:48 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903061735.KAA01139@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: what's in a name? To: dpilgrim@uswest.net (Nocturne) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 17:35:48 +0000 (GMT) Cc: lynch@rush.net, paulg@interlog.com, tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36E0D473.742A5C89@uswest.net> from "Nocturne" at Mar 5, 99 11:08:35 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >Peter Philippe and I were talking about having a "MyBSD" thing going, but > >it was when we were disgruntled about support being dropped when it came > >to 2.2.8-STABLE stuff. > > How about Freenix? Or has that one been taken/suggested already? The reason this question keeps raising its ugly head is the negative marketing value of the "Free" in "FreeBSD". It's probably not go over well in "Freenix", either. I think "Mustard" might be best. I can see it now: "Get a clue: run Mustard Kernel in the Library with an IBM PC". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 10:13:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E90314E75 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:13:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA06637; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:48:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd006627; Sat Mar 6 11:48:01 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA03755; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:12:11 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903061812.LAA03755@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: A BSD-licensed GUI toolkit? To: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 18:12:11 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, eagle@phc.igs.net In-Reply-To: from "Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai" at Mar 6, 99 06:32:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I think that it's about time that a good GUI toolkit for X be developed > > and released under the two-clause BSD license, both so that developers > > like myself can release software with a clean conscience, knowing that's > > *free* and completely unencumbered, not just "Open Source(r)", and to > > encourage commercial developers to port their software to Unix/X11, as > > they would not have to purchase a Motif or Qt license, use some LGPLed > > library, or write their own toolkit from scratch. > > *nods* > > Very good points. > > > Would anyone here be interested in participating in such a project by > > leading it, hosting it, writing code for it, helping to design it, or in > > any other way? > > Leading such a project would be better off in hands like someone as Terry. I already have a Motif clone partially completed. It runs up through chapter 4 in the Young book, and all O'Reilly examples, but is a hell of a long way from Mozilla. My criteria for participation are harsh: 1) You must not own or otherwise have access to a copy of Motif, unless you are in charge of compiling statically linked comparative binaries. 2) You can only work from published information in books and source code on the net. 3) You may *not* use the LessTif code base, since they used examination of header file contents, name lists of libraries, and other quasi-legal means to obtain their information. 4) All internal structures must be documented as to their derivation from public information. The point of doing this is to ensure that, once complete, the former OSF doesn't come and rain on your parade when you start taking market share away from them. So far, I'm the only participant, and I haven't been participating for about 8 months. I am now of the opinion that pursuing Motif is a mistake, but if you meet the above criteria, I can clean up a snapshot of the code and ship it off to you, even though I think you would be wasting your time, in the long run. If you want to use a mostly complete Motif clone, I'd suggest using LessTif, which should be around until it really works, which, like WINE, I think will take a long time. > I would be happy to donate my already sparse free time on such a project > wherever possible. I was always reluctant to pursue it because the whole "look and feel" issue for applications. I think that the "look and feel" should be embedded in the window manager, and that the clients should make higher level requests, like "create a popup list box" or "Add a button with the label 'OK'" (this has been my opinion since at least 1988). I actually believe that the future lies with things like "VNC": http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/ Because VNC can replicate frame buffer contents over a network (a simplified description, to be sure), you can get rid of most of the overhead of X11 by declaring that your network transport is a replication mechanism of some kind. This basically means that there are three pieces to be built: 1) A distributed, coherent virtual framebuffer piece with an Alpha channel This is the tricky part. This basically allows applications on multiple machines to write to the same frame buffer, and to introduce clipping based on a police enforced by a management piece (traditionally, a window manager) for each virtual connection to the framebuffer. Clearly, backing store is the responsibility of the client. 2) A replication piece Ideally, you would replicate by taking a virtual framebuffer, making it a Corba object, and embedding it in a real framebuffer. 3) A direct-to-framebuffer graphics library interface This should probably resemble the Win32 API, in order to make applications easy to port. You could probably leveage the commercial backing of the WINE API library code (WINE itself continues to languish). 4) A real framebuffer object, preferrably capable of having a CORBA frambuffer object embedded in it. This *must* be very thin. Target it for no more than 512k. Expect to implement it on VESA on DOS (or DR-DOS), and expect to implement it on a single FreeBSD boot floppy or a FLASH RAM card. It must include transport interfaces. The idea would be to be able to build the thinnest dispaly and I/O possible. Targets include: http://www.franklin.com/rex/ http://www.palm.com/home.html http://www.qubit.net/ The last one in this list is the most sexy. Business Week states a target retail price of less than $350. The implied CORBA requirement allows it to all come together with applications like KDE and KOffice, which are sitting on top of X11, and as a result, tend to have a very large GUI footprint (minimally, eight times the available RAM in most portable devices). It also allows proxy (assuming a Win32 ABI) for real Windows applications. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 10:18:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23C05152D0; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:18:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gummibear@we.mediaone.net) Received: from gummibear (we-24-130-60-137.we.mediaone.net [24.130.60.137]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA04996; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:17:53 -0800 (PST) From: gummibear@we.mediaone.net Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990306102112.007ada60@we.mediaone.net> X-Sender: gummibear@we.mediaone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 10:21:12 -0800 To: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Concerning PC Mags pitiful mention of FreeBSD Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey all! I'm writing to let you know about something that really bugged me in PC Magazine. Ok, this is concerning the ariticle in PC Magazine's March edition (Vol. 18, No. 6 Marche 23, 1999). To make a long story short, they had like too articles on Linux and the GPL. The first one was some editors note, then the other was a full blown Unix timeline, installation guide, and comparisons between 4 different distributions. Well actually, they called it more of an "Open Source" aritcle. Not just a Linux article. Okay, I guess I can get passed the Linux thing. What bugged me the most is that they explained the differences between the GPL and the BSD license (very brieftly). They even sort of made the BSD license sound kinda bad. And they went on to mention that FreeBSD and Apache was under the BSD license but in *really* small print. FreeBSD also got a brief mention in their "timeline". But it never really went to explaining what FreeBSD is. That's what bugged me!! grrrrr Well, okay so the Linux article bugged me too. If they're gonna claim to be talking about Open Source Software then don't just mention *one* damn Operating System when there is alot more than just one. Hell, they didn't even really mention Hurd (which is GPL). It just goes to show their ignorance. I'm considering writing the editor a letter explaining the merits of the BSD license and also explaining how great the BSD's are. Sure they have a time line that mentions BSD, but they seem not to appreciate what BSD has done for us. If not for BSD and the CSRG (the DoD too) the Internet might have not happpened. The Internet!! Something that we all have grown to love (or hate -- if you get alot of spam or your gf ran off with some guy that she met on IRC). Maybe if these Magazine editors got enough mail about the BSD's (BSDi, FreeBSD, OpenBSD, NetBSD) they might publish a similar article. We have to remind them of all the big Internet players that run BSD based software. It might work. Anyways, I just needed to vent. Thanks for listening. Joey PS If you want to contact the editor, here's his email address: pcmag@zd.com ================================================================ Joey Bear Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net ================================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 10:28:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [192.139.81.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F5CA152F6 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 10:28:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([192.139.81.180]:41736 "EHLO shattered" ident: "IDENT-NONSENSE") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id <61467-273>; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:30:25 -0500 Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:30:24 -0500 (EST) From: Alex Perel To: jack Cc: Wes Peters , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Microsoft dies after 47 days (was: Moving on and check out my .sig) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, jack wrote: > On Mar 5 Wes Peters wrote: > > > What's the likelihood of keeping a Win95/Win98 machine up for 49.7 > > days in the first place? > > Perhaps it could be done with no programs launched at startup, no > mouse, no keyboard, no network connection, no serial or parallel > port connections, no USB connections, no APM, and no screen > saver? Nope - Windows gets all confused if you don't launch a myraid of useless things on startup. The only way to keep windows from crashing is encasing the machine in concrete and sending it to the bottom of the ocean. If it is not running, it's not going to crash, now is it..? Oh wait it's windows! Never mind.... Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 alexp@iplink.net -=- (work) veers@disturbed.net -=- (play) Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 11: 3:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6294B15257 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:03:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.2/8.9.1) id LAA46185; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:03:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 11:03:24 -0800 From: Matthew Hunt To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: what's in a name? Message-ID: <19990306110324.A46003@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <36E0D473.742A5C89@uswest.net> <199903061735.KAA01139@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199903061735.KAA01139@usr06.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 05:35:48PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 05:35:48PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > "Get a clue: run Mustard Kernel in the Library with an IBM PC". http://sunsite.unc.edu/Dave/Dr-Fun/df9707/df970710.jpg -- Matthew Hunt * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 12:48:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4237152C7 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 12:48:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id VAA09364 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 21:48:31 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id E7ACE883B; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:20:25 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 20:20:25 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX 99 [was: Guess we've lost the server market too...?] Message-ID: <19990306202025.A32343@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <43602.920537678@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990305235423.A27578@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990305235423.A27578@dub.net>; from Bill Swingle on Fri, Mar 05, 1999 at 11:54:23PM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5120 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Bill Swingle: > Speaking of USENIX, how many people are planning on going? I have never > been but am really excited about going (or *trying* to go, gotta find > the $$). The Freenix track looks really great! Two friends from France (even if one is now half-dane) and I plan to go to Monterey (like we did last year). I stronly encourage people to attend at least one USENIX. It is great fun, you may learn may interesting things and, most important, you'll meet a lot of people, some you've been in touch with mail for years and never seen. Great experience that. The feasting is quite nice too :-) PS: one just have to avoid 50 bucks/meal restaurants (semi-private joke). -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #70: Sat Feb 27 09:43:08 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 13:42:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from maxcow.borg.com (MaxCow.borg.com [205.217.206.188]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58B7414C30; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 13:42:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@borg.com) Received: from mail.borg.com (mail.borg.com [205.217.206.192]) by maxcow.borg.com (8.9.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA08423; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from borg.com (ip181a.borg.com [208.3.180.181]) by mail.borg.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA28802; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:42:12 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <36E1A23F.80EF39E2@borg.com> Date: Sat, 06 Mar 1999 16:46:39 -0500 From: "Mark S. Reichman" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Rob Cc: questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Dictionary References: <19990301135117.A74364@wopr.caltech.edu> <19990303045313.B1500@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The next time you are in a bookstore take a look at all the dictionaries available. Almost all of them say Websters on them and they are sold by a multitude of different publishing companies. The term "Webster" doesnt mean a thing anymore. It used to, but not anymore. Feel free to make a dictionary and put Websters on it if you like. Quoting a websters dictionary only means that that particular publishing company, look inside the front cover, defines the word that way. Open an entirely different Websters and it will/may have a totaly different definition. Oh.. Who was that guy named Roget anyway. I hear he has the same problem as Webster. Rob wrote: > > [ X-ed to FreeBSD-Chat ] > On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 01:51:17PM -0800, Matthew Hunt wrote: > > On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 09:24:10PM +0000, Ben J. Cohen wrote: > > > > > I have been using it with a friend to try and solve crosswords and it > > > hasn't been too brilliant---for instance it doesn't have the words > > > "Internet" or "cheapskate". (Of course, our crossword solving skill > > > aren't brilliant either.) > > > > Note the README: > > > > # Welcome to web2 (Webster's Second International) all 234,936 words worth. > > # The 1934 copyright has elapsed, according to the supplier. The > > # supplemental 'web2a' list contains hyphenated terms as well as assorted > > # noun and adverbial phrases. The wordlist makes a dandy 'grep' victim. > > > > The lack of "Internet" in a 1934 dictionary should not be surprising. > > We have that dictionary because its copyright expired, not because > > anyone donated it. I don't know whether there are any more recent > > or more complete dictionaries available for free. > > > > -- > > Matthew Hunt * Science rules. > > http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * > > This might sound like a stupid question, but how is it possible > to "copyright" a dictionary? I(c) mean(c), they(c) don't(c) own(c) > the(c) words(c), do they? > At the very least, it would seem that Webster's would be hard- > pressed to prove that somebody "stole" their word list. > > -Rob > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-questions" in the body of the message -- \|/ (@ @) +----------oOO----(_)------------------+ | Mark S. Reichman FreeBSD | | mark@borg.com Got source? | | | | May the source be with you! | | | +------------------------oOO-----------+ |__|__| || || ooO Ooo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 14:32:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from elvis.mu.org (elvis.mu.org [206.156.231.253]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00D77152C3 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 14:32:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from paul@elvis.mu.org) Received: (from paul@localhost) by elvis.mu.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA27899; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:31:56 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from paul) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 16:31:56 -0600 From: Paul Saab To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX 99 [was: Guess we've lost the server market too...?] Message-ID: <19990306163156.A27628@elvis.mu.org> References: <43602.920537678@zippy.cdrom.com> <19990305235423.A27578@dub.net> <19990306202025.A32343@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990306202025.A32343@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 08:20:25PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ollivier Robert (roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) wrote: > According to Bill Swingle: > > Speaking of USENIX, how many people are planning on going? I have never > > been but am really excited about going (or *trying* to go, gotta find > > the $$). The Freenix track looks really great! > > Two friends from France (even if one is now half-dane) and I plan to go to > Monterey (like we did last year). I stronly encourage people to attend at > least one USENIX. It is great fun, you may learn may interesting things > and, most important, you'll meet a lot of people, some you've been in touch > with mail for years and never seen. I agree. I went to my first one last year and am going again this year. It was great fun and I recomend it to anyone who is thinking of going. > Great experience that. The feasting is quite nice too :-) > > PS: one just have to avoid 50 bucks/meal restaurants (semi-private joke). Isn't that the truth. Just don't ask the hotel employees where to go eat and I think you'll be fine. :) paul To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 18:31:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB2AA152EB; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 18:31:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10JTLN-000GyQ-0C; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 02:31:06 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id CAA00634; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 02:30:52 GMT Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA00338; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 02:26:22 GMT (envelope-from marko) Message-ID: <19990307022622.C216@localhost> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 02:26:22 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Terry Lambert Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: Re: what's in a name? References: <36E0D473.742A5C89@uswest.net> <199903061735.KAA01139@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199903061735.KAA01139@usr06.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 05:35:48PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 06, 1999 at 05:35:48PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > I think "Mustard" might be best. I can see it now: > > "Get a clue: run Mustard Kernel in the Library with an IBM PC". > :-) > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 19:52:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8096A14BE9 for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 19:52:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03589; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 22:51:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 1999 22:51:51 -0500 (EST) From: Pat Lynch To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX 99 [was: Guess we've lost the server market too...?] In-Reply-To: <19990306202025.A32343@keltia.freenix.fr> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 6 Mar 1999, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > Great experience that. The feasting is quite nice too :-) > > PS: one just have to avoid 50 bucks/meal restaurants (semi-private joke). > -- yah, that kinda sucked, but New Orleans is known for the locals taking advantage of the tourists. They knew they could with us. *sigh* And it was so expensive that Lorraine and I just ate one plate btwn the two of us. (we were the only people that seemed to ask about prices beforehand) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 6 22:45:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eagle.phc.igs.net (eagle.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D52C14CCC for ; Sat, 6 Mar 1999 22:45:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eagle@eagle.phc.igs.net) Received: (from eagle@localhost) by eagle.phc.igs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA02704; Sun, 7 Mar 1999 01:41:47 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from eagle) Message-Id: <199903070641.BAA02704@eagle.phc.igs.net> Date: Sun, 7 Mar 1999 01:41:37 -0500 (EST) From: eagle@phc.igs.net Subject: Re: A BSD-licensed GUI toolkit? To: tlambert@primenet.com Cc: asmodai@wxs.nl, brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903061812.LAA03755@usr06.primenet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert was seen writing: > I actually believe that the future lies with things like "VNC": > > http://www.uk.research.att.com/vnc/ > > > Because VNC can replicate frame buffer contents over a network > (a simplified description, to be sure), you can get rid of most > of the overhead of X11 by declaring that your network transport > is a replication mechanism of some kind. > > This basically means that there are three pieces to be built: > > 1) A distributed, coherent virtual framebuffer piece with > an Alpha channel > > This is the tricky part. This basically allows applications > on multiple machines to write to the same frame buffer, and > to introduce clipping based on a police enforced by a > management piece (traditionally, a window manager) for each > virtual connection to the framebuffer. > > Clearly, backing store is the responsibility of the client. > > 2) A replication piece > > Ideally, you would replicate by taking a virtual framebuffer, > making it a Corba object, and embedding it in a real > framebuffer. > > 3) A direct-to-framebuffer graphics library interface > > This should probably resemble the Win32 API, in order to > make applications easy to port. You could probably > leveage the commercial backing of the WINE API library > code (WINE itself continues to languish). > > 4) A real framebuffer object, preferrably capable of having > a CORBA frambuffer object embedded in it. > > This *must* be very thin. Target it for no more than > 512k. Expect to implement it on VESA on DOS (or DR-DOS), > and expect to implement it on a single FreeBSD boot floppy > or a FLASH RAM card. It must include transport interfaces. > I fail to see how this solves the issue at hand, with x library's as this kind of implementation would have to replace x, destroying the compatibility with existing software in the proccess. While vnc's frame buffer replication ideas are indeed interesting, it goes nowhere to solving the problem that we do have. that is quite simply a stable usefull x toolkit, I do agree that mofif is dead, and that work on it would be aproaching useless though. So that leaves us with the prospect of designing and implementing a new gui toolkit. Rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message