From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 4:27:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0493156ED for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 04:26:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10REeD-000MJy-0C; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:26:38 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA01079; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:26:31 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id MAA05117; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:36:37 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:36:37 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: paul@originative.co.uk Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: We're not that different Message-ID: <19990328123636.H264@marder-1.localhost> References: <19990327192324.C53452@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990327192324.C53452@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 07:23:24PM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [moved to -chat] > > On Thursday, 25 March 1999 at 17:24:15 -0000, paul@originative.co.uk wrote: > > This is probably asking for trouble since it's not even remotely FreeBSD > > related (then again it sort of is, see points below). Some of you may have > > seen it but a little light relief is a good thing at times :-) > > >>> Q: How many internet mail list subscribers does it take to change a > >>> light bulb? > >>> > >>> A: 1,343 > >>> > >>> 1 to change the light bulb and to post to the mail list that the > >>> light bulb has been changed; > >>> > >>> 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how > >>> the light bulb could have been changed differently; > >>> [..... rest of answer snipped] ROFL :-) I love it. This has just displaced the Pentium designers as one of my all time favourite top three Light bulb changers (it's going to take me a while to memorize it though ;-) ). FWIW, the other 2 are: How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb? Two. One to turn the kangaroo and the other to fill the bath-tub with brightly coloured machine tools How many Social Workers does it take to change a light bulb? None, but it takes 15 to write a paper entitled "Coping with darkness". -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 4:27:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80D86156EA for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 04:26:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10REe9-0005sd-0B; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:26:34 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA01073; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:26:03 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id MAA05057; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:17:46 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 12:17:46 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysadmins (was: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI') Message-ID: <19990328121745.F264@marder-1.localhost> References: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> <36FB890E.2178904E@uk.radan.com> <19990327110547.S425@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990327110547.S425@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 11:05:47AM +1030 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 11:05:47AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Friday, 26 March 1999 at 13:18:06 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Remy Nonnenmacher wrote: > >> > >> On 25 Mar, Wes Peters wrote: > >>> > >>> Hey, that's ME they're talking about there... > > > > Ah, so it was you in the picture that Greg Lehey posted a few days ago > > (in the thread about dressing up in Daemon costumes) ;-) > > Nope, as I said, that one was a core team member. Ah yes, so you did. I didn't have your e-mail to hand when I replied to Wes. > And nobody has come up with who he might be. > Was it a quiz, Greg, or were you asking because you can't remember? > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 4:46:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E94FF15285 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 04:46:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-072.thuntek.net [207.66.52.72]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id FAA26380; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 05:46:01 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FE2400.76272225@thuntek.net> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 05:43:44 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Benson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Working in the IT Field - Trials and Tribulations References: <000001be78e9$294a4980$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Benson wrote: > > > On Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 12:07:03AM -0500, Brad Benson wrote: > > > You said before the network isn't connected to the Internet. If it's a > > > closed system you shouldn't have to worry a lot about your > > security on the > > > NT box. Unless you have some skilled and disgruntled employees. > > I would make > > > > What's that statistic again about the percentage of security incidents > > that come from the inside? > > I don't know about the statistics. I can say that the biggest security > issues I've had, in the companies I've done work for, had little to do with > the OS. Employees working on these closed networks often take security as a > joke. I can't count the times I've gone into a company where most employees > new the root or admin password. I used to do a lot of work with NetWare and > it was even worse. People would setup a network and just give every user > supervisory rights. It doesn't matter how tight the OS is if everyone has > the password, or no one setup the security right in the first place. I'd put > money on the fact that any statistic on internal security has a lot to do > with this type of problem. > I've worked at companies that _were_ connected to the Internet where the CEO insisted we take passwords _off_ all the W95 clients so he could do his employees' work himself or snoop theirs. One wanted to kill the server passwords, too, but I drew the line... =8-O Actually, SOftware magazine had a security article a while back ( ~9 months ) and I think the percentage was around 90% for _internal_ sabotage. CEO's don't like to know there are ramifications for screwing their employees. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 10: 9: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871B11564D for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 10:09:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.42]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA12025; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 13:05:38 -0500 Message-ID: <36FE5AAC.38E791D3@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 11:37:00 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 2.2.7-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jay Sachs Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: any sign of these books? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jay Sachs wrote: > > A friend has asked me to help him locate a copy of the following: > > 1. UNIX User's Reference Manual (URM) 4.3 Berleley Software > Distribution Virtual VAX-11 Version, April 1986 > > 2. A Fast File System for UNIX, UNIX System Manager's Manual (SMM) 4.3 > Berkeley Software Distribution Virtual VAX-11 Version, April 1986 > Maybe ... /usr/share/doc/smm/05.fastfs > Anyone have ideas where I might find them? > Look in gatekeeper.dec.com, the 4.4BSD Manuals (from Oreilly?) might also have something. cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 14:30:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8991C14C29 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:30:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 1783 invoked by alias); 28 Mar 1999 22:30:31 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 1763 invoked by uid 0); 28 Mar 1999 22:30:31 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 28 Mar 1999 22:30:31 -0000 Message-ID: <36FEAD80.8667A3CB@uswest.net> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:30:24 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: Jay Sachs , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: any sign of these books? References: <36FE5AAC.38E791D3@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > Jay Sachs wrote: > > > > A friend has asked me to help him locate a copy of the following: > > > > 1. UNIX User's Reference Manual (URM) 4.3 Berleley Software > > Distribution Virtual VAX-11 Version, April 1986 > > > > 2. A Fast File System for UNIX, UNIX System Manager's Manual (SMM) 4.3 > > Berkeley Software Distribution Virtual VAX-11 Version, April 1986 > > > Maybe ... > /usr/share/doc/smm/05.fastfs > > > Anyone have ideas where I might find them? > > > > Look in gatekeeper.dec.com, the 4.4BSD Manuals (from Oreilly?) might > also have something. If they have ISBNs almost any bookstore can order them for you. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey availble To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 16: 5:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 669DF154C2 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 16:05:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA21416; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:34:55 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA06438; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:34:54 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990329093454.L413@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:34:54 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysadmins (was: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI') References: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> <36FB890E.2178904E@uk.radan.com> <19990327110547.S425@lemis.com> <19990328121745.F264@marder-1.localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990328121745.F264@marder-1.localhost>; from Mark Ovens on Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 12:17:46PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 28 March 1999 at 12:17:46 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sat, Mar 27, 1999 at 11:05:47AM +1030, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Friday, 26 March 1999 at 13:18:06 +0000, Mark Ovens wrote: >>> Remy Nonnenmacher wrote: >>>> >>>> On 25 Mar, Wes Peters wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hey, that's ME they're talking about there... >>> >>> Ah, so it was you in the picture that Greg Lehey posted a few days ago >>> (in the thread about dressing up in Daemon costumes) ;-) >> >> Nope, as I said, that one was a core team member. > > Ah yes, so you did. I didn't have your e-mail to hand when I replied > to Wes. > >> And nobody has come up with who he might be. >> > > Was it a quiz, Greg, or were you asking because you can't remember? It's a quiz. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 16:17:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from limbo.rtfm.net (limbo.rtfm.net [216.44.71.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04709156DB for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 16:17:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nathan@limbo.rtfm.net) Received: (from nathan@localhost) by limbo.rtfm.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id TAA87033 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:16:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from nathan) Message-ID: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:16:02 -0500 From: Nathan Dorfman To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: tattoos? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html Anyone up for a BSD daemon tattoo? Shucks, I'm <18, someone else will have to do it. :-) -- Nathan Dorfman The statements and opinions in my Unix Admin @ Frontline Communications public posts are mine, not FCC's. "The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching train." --/usr/games/fortune To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 17:30:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBEEF153E1 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 17:30:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id DAA01398 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 03:30:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10RQrO-000WyWC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Mon, 29 Mar 1999 03:29:02 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Chuck is cute Date: 29 Mar 1999 03:28:59 +0200 Message-ID: <7dml0r$v3b$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I spent Saturday at the "Journées du Libre" (Free Software Days) at Strasbourg. Organized by the local Linux user group, the event was mostly concerned with Linux. So I brought my daemon plushie along (the 30cm one you can order from www.freibergnet.de). This proved to be a great way to break the ice, people were instantly smitten by Chuck's inherent cuteness. On a somewhat related note, ScotGold Products from Scotland sell 25x25mm daemon badges that you can stick on your PC. However, as far as I can figure from their website, the minimum order is 250, which is a tad more than I expect to need anytime soon. Are these available anywhere (preferably in Europe) in more reasonable quantities, say a strip of 10 or so? -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de 100+ SF Book Reviews: To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 19:29:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D722615743 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 19:29:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-054.thuntek.net [207.66.52.54]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id UAA29917; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:29:14 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FEF2F9.66342DD6@thuntek.net> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:26:49 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nathan Dorfman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tattoos? References: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, we could do transfers... First guy to suggest it. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 20:11:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8975014E62 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id BB82D34E7; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:07:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 23:07:37 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: Nocturne Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Jay Sachs , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: any sign of these books? In-Reply-To: <36FEAD80.8667A3CB@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not if they're out of print, they can't! On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Nocturne wrote: > Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 14:30:24 -0800 > From: Nocturne > To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" > Cc: Jay Sachs , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: any sign of these books? > > "Pedro F. Giffuni" wrote: > > > > Jay Sachs wrote: > > > > > If they have ISBNs almost any bookstore can order them for you. > > -- > dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the > gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world > ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a > DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey availble > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 20:16:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56EE214E62 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:16:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: from bb-b1-11a (ppp68.pm3-0.pdx.dsinw.com [207.149.41.68]) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA13099; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:14:09 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:14:18 -0800 () From: Rick Hamell To: Eric Wayte Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: any sign of these books? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: hamellr@dsinw.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Not if they're out of print, they can't! > > > > If they have ISBNs almost any bookstore can order them for you. Yes they can. They'll just find them in the used section. www.powells.com specializes in out-of-print books, especially technical ones. www.amazon.com may have it in stock too, though they tend to tell you they have it then tell you it's backordered for weeks at a time. www.mx-bookfinder.com searches about 10 used book stores all at the same time. Optionally, any small local bookstore that specializes in rare books will have access to the bookfinder network. It tends to be a tad bit more expensive going that way but 90% of the time they have it. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 20:40:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0261C14D30 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:40:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with SMTP id WAA23669 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:39:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:39:53 -0600 (CST) From: Steve Price To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Anyone want ESR's job? :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.netaxs.com/~esr/writings/take-my-job-please.html To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 20:58:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rascal.honk.org (cr523413-a.wlfdle1.on.wave.home.com [24.112.177.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80C9514CD3; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 20:58:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mpoulin@rascal.honk.org) Received: from localhost (mpoulin@localhost) by rascal.honk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA20584; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:01:44 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mpoulin@rascal.honk.org) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 00:01:43 -0500 (EST) From: Marty Poulin To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990326213540.008f2c90@mail.bfm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > Interesting. I received your message right after I spent considerable time > at a place that compares various window managers (got there through a link > from FreeBSD.org). I was going to download KDE, but came up on another > stumbling point: Just which of the gadzillion files do I need. Boy, do I > hate ftp! Just a list of file names with no description. Have you taken a look at the ports collection? There is a "metaport" that installs everything you need for KDE in there - it's what I used and it worked quite well. > But back to the topic of desktop managers like KDE. Does all X software run > under all of them, or do you have to have different software (I mean > applications) for, say, KDE and afterstep? I got the impression from KDE > web site that applications must be written specifically for KDE... No, no. Any software written for X will run in X, regardless of the window manager. There are applications written specifically for KDE which will only run under KDE, but you can run any X application in KDE or afterstep or FVWM... that's the whole nature of X. ================== Quote of the Day ===================== What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - it's the size of the fight in the dog. - Dwight D. Eisenhower To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 22: 1:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [208.138.36.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CDA31543E for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:01:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id WAA45725; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:00:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:00:54 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Nathan Dorfman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tattoos? Message-ID: <19990328220054.B45528@001101.zer0.org> References: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net>; from Nathan Dorfman on Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html > > Anyone up for a BSD daemon tattoo? Shucks, I'm <18, someone else > will have to do it. :-) Based on my personal survey, I imagine there are many more people out there with Beastie tattoos than with penguins. I know, in completely separate contexts, three people with Beastie tats. One has Lasseter's beastie (from the cover of the "Design and Implementation" books), one Tatsumi's walking beastie, and one an original(?) 4BSD beastie (the one that was originally drawn with his fork poking a Unix balloon). I know nobody with a Linux tattoo. Now _that_ would be an interesting statistic: the date when Linux gains enough "cool" momentum to make the number of Tux tats greater than the number of beastie tats... too bad data for that are so hard to come by. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Failing sardine factory cans employees! mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 22:19:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4ECC5152D9 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:19:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 57940 invoked by uid 1000); 29 Mar 1999 06:19:04 -0000 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:19:04 +0200 From: Andreas Braukmann To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Message-ID: <19990329081904.A57680@paert.tse-online.de> References: <7dml0r$v3b$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <7dml0r$v3b$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 03:28:59AM +0200 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 03:28:59AM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > On a somewhat related note, ScotGold Products from Scotland sell 25x25mm > daemon badges that you can stick on your PC. yes. They are really nice. > However, as far as I can > figure from their website, the minimum order is 250, which is a tad more > than I expect to need anytime soon. Hmmm. I ordered 25 of them and got them a few days ago. I found several 'Daemon Badge'-Packs in the online-catalogue's 'daemon badges' category: http://www.net800.co.uk/netstart/scotgold/cgi-bin/search.pl Daemon Badge (Pack 3) Pack of 25 Daemon badges. £ 8.75 > Are these available anywhere > (preferably in Europe) in more reasonable quantities, say a strip of 10 > or so? There was even a pack of 10 available. -Andreas -- : TSE TeleService GmbH : Gsf: Arne Reuter : : : Hovestrasse 14 : Andreas Braukmann : We do it with : : D-48351 Everswinkel : HRB: 1430, AG WAF : FreeBSD/SMP : :--------------------------------------------------------------------: : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Mar 28 22:58:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E62115052 for ; Sun, 28 Mar 1999 22:58:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10RVzX-000IZY-0C; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:57:47 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA01432; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:57:25 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA01280; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:57:23 +0100 Message-ID: <36FF242F.EB42C9C8@uk.radan.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:56:48 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Chuck is cute References: <7dml0r$v3b$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > I spent Saturday at the "Journes du Libre" (Free Software Days) at > Strasbourg. Organized by the local Linux user group, the event was > mostly concerned with Linux. So I brought my daemon plushie along (the > 30cm one you can order from www.freibergnet.de). This proved to be a > great way to break the ice, people were instantly smitten by Chuck's > inherent cuteness. > That Website appears to be only in German, do you know if there's an English language site that sells those plushies? > On a somewhat related note, ScotGold Products from Scotland sell 25x25mm > daemon badges that you can stick on your PC. However, as far as I can > figure from their website, the minimum order is 250, which is a tad more > than I expect to need anytime soon. Are these available anywhere > (preferably in Europe) in more reasonable quantities, say a strip of 10 > or so? > I think you've mis-read the Website. The 250 minimum order refers to *customized* PC badges (http://www.scotgold.com/Prices.htm) . There standard range are available singly, take a look at http://www.scotgold.com/Daemon.htm , 35p each for *upto* 499 badges. HTH > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de > 100+ SF Book Reviews: > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 5:38:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49C4D151E5 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 05:38:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id D98D1348D; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:34:47 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:34:47 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Wayte To: Mark Ovens Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Chuck is cute In-Reply-To: <36FF242F.EB42C9C8@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The FreeBSD mall (www.freebsdmall.com) has just added the plushies to their extensive line of merchandise. Eric Wayte, DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:56:48 +0100 > From: Mark Ovens > To: Christian Weisgerber > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Chuck is cute > > Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > > > I spent Saturday at the "Journes du Libre" (Free Software Days) at > > Strasbourg. Organized by the local Linux user group, the event was > > mostly concerned with Linux. So I brought my daemon plushie along (the > > 30cm one you can order from www.freibergnet.de). This proved to be a > > great way to break the ice, people were instantly smitten by Chuck's > > inherent cuteness. > > > > That Website appears to be only in German, do you know if there's an > English language site that sells those plushies? > > > On a somewhat related note, ScotGold Products from Scotland sell 25x25mm > > daemon badges that you can stick on your PC. However, as far as I can > > figure from their website, the minimum order is 250, which is a tad more > > than I expect to need anytime soon. Are these available anywhere > > (preferably in Europe) in more reasonable quantities, say a strip of 10 > > or so? > > > > I think you've mis-read the Website. The 250 minimum order refers to > *customized* PC badges (http://www.scotgold.com/Prices.htm) . There > standard range are available singly, take a look at > http://www.scotgold.com/Daemon.htm , 35p each for *upto* 499 badges. > > HTH > > > > -- > > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de > > 100+ SF Book Reviews: > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > -- > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov > _______________________________________________________________ > Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK > CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry > mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 6:26:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rascal.honk.org (cr523413-a.wlfdle1.on.wave.home.com [24.112.177.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DBD61535F; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 06:26:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mpoulin@rascal.honk.org) Received: from localhost (mpoulin@localhost) by rascal.honk.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id JAA21108; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:30:16 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from mpoulin@rascal.honk.org) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:30:15 -0500 (EST) From: Marty Poulin To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <36FF0B8E.D1B051B1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 28 Mar 1999, Ryan A. Carris wrote: > I personsally prefer Windowmaker. > It uses much less memory and looks a lot less windowish. > > > Ryan A. Carris > racarris@earthlink.net > I used to think that KDE looked too much like windows also, until I discovered their desktop themes. Now my KDE looks more like Enlightenment than windows. ================== Quote of the Day ===================== The release of atomic energy has not created a new problem. It has merely made more urgent the necessity of solving an existing one.-Albert Einstein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 7: 5:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CBD214E67 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:05:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-027.thuntek.net [207.66.52.27]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA23472; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:04:41 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FF9605.275D22C4@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:02:29 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Steve Price Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Anyone want ESR's job? :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Steve Price wrote: > > http://www.netaxs.com/~esr/writings/take-my-job-please.html > I think we'll be helping to spread the load with my new commitment. The time is past for there to be ONE Richard Stallman or Eric Raymond who speaks for us. We are a community of many interests, and it will improve our standing in the real-world perception for there to be several of us who cannot be knocked down and blown away. This will just lead to a showcasing of our benefits vs. theirs, and we will _all_ come out ahead of the game through the visibility. The losers will be the dinosaurs. I also ask you to note the downsides of the job that he speaks of. They are real, and I ask you to cut _all_ of us the slack we need to survive, especially as I grow into the job. We have all benefited from RS's years of effort with GNU _and_ from the rise in market perception that ESR has orchestrated. We have felt the frustration of trying to get ESR to mention FreeBSD with Linux. Now, the BSD-licensed software -- and I intend to speak up for ALL, from Apache to XFree86 -- will have its own visible advocate. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 7:45:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B31F14E76 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:45:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-027.thuntek.net [207.66.52.27]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA29762; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:44:18 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FF9F4F.EC102A44@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:42:07 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Nathan Dorfman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tattoos? References: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> <19990328220054.B45528@001101.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html > > > > Anyone up for a BSD daemon tattoo? Shucks, I'm <18, someone else > > will have to do it. :-) > > Based on my personal survey, I imagine there are many more people out > there with Beastie tattoos than with penguins. I know, in completely > separate contexts, three people with Beastie tats. One has Lasseter's > beastie (from the cover of the "Design and Implementation" books), one > Tatsumi's walking beastie, and one an original(?) 4BSD beastie (the one > that was originally drawn with his fork poking a Unix balloon). I know > nobody with a Linux tattoo. Now _that_ would be an interesting > statistic: the date when Linux gains enough "cool" momentum to make the > number of Tux tats greater than the number of beastie tats... too bad > data for that are so hard to come by. > so now my job includes getting the hardheads to wear Beastie instead of FatButt? ;-) -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 7:50:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nefertiti.lightningweb.com (nefertiti.lightningweb.com [198.68.191.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6632B14E76 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:50:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from keith@lightningweb.com) Received: from localhost (keith@localhost) by nefertiti.lightningweb.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA28209; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:51:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 07:51:27 -0800 (PST) From: Keith Woodman To: Donald Wilde Cc: Gregory Sutter , Nathan Dorfman , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tattoos? In-Reply-To: <36FF9F4F.EC102A44@thuntek.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'll submit some skin to the cause. Already got a full sleeve tat. What's one more. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Woodman Technical Coordinator Keith@lightningweb.com Lightningweb LLC personal http://www.cydonia.net/~saxon work http://www.lightningweb.com/~keith pid 7962 (sniffit), uid 0: exited on signal 10 (core dumped) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Donald Wilde wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > > On Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html > > > > > > Anyone up for a BSD daemon tattoo? Shucks, I'm <18, someone else > > > will have to do it. :-) > > > > Based on my personal survey, I imagine there are many more people out > > there with Beastie tattoos than with penguins. I know, in completely > > separate contexts, three people with Beastie tats. One has Lasseter's > > beastie (from the cover of the "Design and Implementation" books), one > > Tatsumi's walking beastie, and one an original(?) 4BSD beastie (the one > > that was originally drawn with his fork poking a Unix balloon). I know > > nobody with a Linux tattoo. Now _that_ would be an interesting > > statistic: the date when Linux gains enough "cool" momentum to make the > > number of Tux tats greater than the number of beastie tats... too bad > > data for that are so hard to come by. > > > so now my job includes getting the hardheads to wear Beastie instead of > FatButt? ;-) > -- > Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" > Wilde Media > 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 > Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 8: 4:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB6EB15148; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:04:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-059.thuntek.net [207.66.52.59]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id JAA03899; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:04:08 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <36FFA3F6.41AA8CC@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:01:58 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-advocacy@freebsd.org, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: advocacy opportunities bazaar! Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Please visit http://www.thuntek.net/~dwilde1/advotasks.html, everybody. _Don't_ respond to this post, please start new threads for discussions. -- Donald Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 8:19:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 898B114D0C for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:19:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 33140 invoked by uid 1001); 29 Mar 1999 16:18:51 -0000 Date: 29 Mar 1999 08:18:51 -0800 Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:18:51 -0800 From: Bill Swingle To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Message-ID: <19990329081851.A33101@dub.net> References: <36FF242F.EB42C9C8@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Eric Wayte on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 08:34:47AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hrmm, I thought chuckie was a mean little doll that killed people in movies.... -Bill On Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 08:34:47AM -0500, Eric Wayte wrote: > The FreeBSD mall (www.freebsdmall.com) has just added the plushies to > their extensive line of merchandise. > > > Eric Wayte, DBA > Univ. of Central Florida > ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu -- -=| Bill Swingle - -=| "I hate quotations." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -=| FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! - http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 8:40:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop03.globecomm.net (pop03.globecomm.net [206.253.130.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 744BC1527E for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:40:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r33.bfm.org [208.18.213.129]) by pop03.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA24990; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:40:21 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990329102615.008f94a0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:26:15 -0600 To: David Kelly From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903270339.VAA21330@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <3.0.6.32.19990326093033.00919230@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 21:39 26-03-1999 -0600, David Kelly wrote: >8M is more than plenty if its VIDEO RAM, but for core? 16M is the often >quoted minimum. At work they'll only give me 24MB. Works. Netscape has >to swap most every time I pull down a menu. But it works. 8M for video? Don't I wish! Got 1 M for that, upgradeable to 2 M. I have since reinstalled the ports, the entire X11* part was somehow missing. Yesterday I reinstalled X from the ports (before, I had it from the distributions) and went back to twm. It was working for a while, much longer than before, with just one xterm and the clock. The whole think locked up when I clicked on the clock. Strange thing. I could probably live with twm for now if it did not lose focus when the mouse cursor moves out of the window. When I have some time, I'll have to analyze its source code and see if I can modify it not to lose focus. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 8:41:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop03.globecomm.net (pop03.globecomm.net [206.253.130.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5471215368; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:41:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r33.bfm.org [208.18.213.129]) by pop03.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA24999; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:40:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990329103358.008fe920@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:33:58 -0600 To: Marty Poulin From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19990326213540.008f2c90@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 00:01 29-03-1999 -0500, Marty Poulin wrote: >Have you taken a look at the ports collection? There is a "metaport" that >installs everything you need for KDE in there - it's what I used and it >worked quite well. Yes, thank you. I have since found and installed it. And I definitely need more memory. :-( I am going to experiment with bigger swap area to see if it works for now. Just received a tip from Unix Guru Universe how to increase the swap area without label, so I want to play with that. >No, no. Any software written for X will run in X, regardless of the >window manager. There are applications written specifically for KDE which >will only run under KDE, but you can run any X application in KDE or >afterstep or FVWM... that's the whole nature of X. Oh good. Thanks, Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 8:41:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop03.globecomm.net (pop03.globecomm.net [206.253.130.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 061471527E; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:41:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r33.bfm.org [208.18.213.129]) by pop03.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA25007; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:40:26 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990329103927.008fa890@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:39:27 -0600 To: "Ryan A. Carris" , Marty Poulin From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <36FF0B8E.D1B051B1@earthlink.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 23:11 28-03-1999 -0600, Ryan A. Carris wrote: >I want to expand on this by reminding everyone that at anytime you can >type "/stand/sysinstall" and go to the configure menu then select >ports. If you are connected to the internet of have the CD you can then >just browse the lise of ports, select and in 95% of the time the port >gets installed perfectly. KDE is like this. If you go through this >procedure and select KDE meta port, which inculdes almost everything and >is HUGE, you will have KDE running withing the time it takes to download >it. All you have to do after this is create a file called ".xinitrc" >with one line that says "startkde". I personsally prefer Windowmaker. >It uses much less memory and looks a lot less windowish. One strange thing though: I did that (installing KDE via /stand/sysinstall), and it kept complaining that X was not installed even though it was, just not from the ports (Pressing enter each time kept it moving along, just that I had to press it some 100 times or so). I have since reinstalled X from the ports. But I wonder if there is a way to register software somehow, so ports knows it already is installed for future reference. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 9: 3:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gaia.gutierrez.com (gaia.gutierrez.com [206.105.100.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5C1C14DB2 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:03:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from carlos@gutierrez.com) Received: from localhost (carlos@localhost) by gaia.gutierrez.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06630 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:44:36 -0400 (AST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:44:36 -0400 (AST) From: "Carlos M. Gutierrez" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: NATO JETS BOMB REDMOND, WASHINGTON (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org NATO JETS BOMB REDMOND, WASHINGTON (AP Redmond) In a surprise night raid, fighter planes from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization bombed Microsoft headquarters in Redmond, Washington. Jim Shea, spokesman for NATO described the situation in Redmond as a "humanitarian catastrophe". "Hundreds of innocent software firms were being put out of business by Microsoft; NATO had to act to prevent businesscide", Shead added. Meanwhile, in a CNN interview Microsoft Chairman Bill Gates was irate: "We _need_ all the other software firms! It is not true that we are trying to exterminate them... It is THEM that are trying to exterminate us! Please understand...". NATO General Wesley Clark indicated "Microsoft will make peace, or we will destroy its capacity to make war on other small software companies..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 9:16:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF1E314DB2 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:15:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #4) id 10RcU4-0007J8-00; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:53:44 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:53:44 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Greg Lehey Cc: Mark Ovens , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysadmins (was: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI') Message-ID: <19990329145344.B28074@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> <36FB890E.2178904E@uk.radan.com> <19990327110547.S425@lemis.com> <19990328121745.F264@marder-1.localhost> <19990329093454.L413@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990329093454.L413@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> Ah, so it was you in the picture that Greg Lehey posted a few days ago >>>> (in the thread about dressing up in Daemon costumes) ;-) [..] >> Was it a quiz, Greg, or were you asking because you can't remember? > > It's a quiz. Where is this picture? I must have missed it, or perhaps it was first mentioned on a list I'm not subscribed to. -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk send a blank message to ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 10:18:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 0CD2214EF1; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:18:13 -0800 (PST) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: dwilde1@thuntek.net Cc: gsutter@pobox.com, nathan@rtfm.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <36FF9F4F.EC102A44@thuntek.net> (message from Donald Wilde on Mon, 29 Mar 1999 08:42:07 -0700) Subject: Re: tattoos? References: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> <19990328220054.B45528@001101.zer0.org> <36FF9F4F.EC102A44@thuntek.net> Message-Id: <19990329181813.0CD2214EF1@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:18:13 -0800 (PST) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > On Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html > so now my job includes getting the hardheads to wear Beastie instead of > FatButt? ;-) should be a lot easier to get hardtail riders wearing a beastie tattoo that a fatbutt. ;) jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 13:41:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (pinnacle.internet.co.nz [210.48.55.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDCD614DB0 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 13:41:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.2]) by kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20601 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:36:08 +1200 (NZST) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:36:08 +1200 (NZST) From: Jonathan Chen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: ftp.nz.freebsd.org Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Just out of curiousity, I wondered whether ftp.nz.freebsd.org was in use, and I was surprised when `ftp ftp.nz.freebsd.org' actually came back with something! Hmm. No FreeBSD mirror there. It's Clear-Net's (a major NZ ISP) FTP server. Anybody know the reason why ftp.nz.freebsd.org is pointing there? Cheers. -- Jonathan Chen Once is dumb luck. Twice is coincidence. Three times and Somebody Is Trying To Tell You Something. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 14: 3:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.sfba.home.com (ha1.rdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.0.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7976814F94; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:03:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from charon@freethought.org) Received: from c40948-a ([24.1.7.99]) by mail.rdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail v4.00.03 201-229-104) with SMTP id <19990329220334.TWUW6529.mail.rdc1.sfba.home.com@c40948-a>; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:03:34 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990329140310.00a32df0@mail> X-Sender: tuathadedanann@mail X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:03:10 -0800 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" From: charon@freethought.org Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990329103927.008fa890@mail.bfm.org> References: <36FF0B8E.D1B051B1@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:39 AM 3/29/99 -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >One strange thing though: I did that (installing KDE via >/stand/sysinstall), and it kept complaining that X was not installed even >though it was, just not from the ports (Pressing enter each time kept it >moving along, just that I had to press it some 100 times or so). I have >since reinstalled X from the ports. But I wonder if there is a way to >register software somehow, so ports knows it already is installed for >future reference. mkdir /var/db/pkg XFree86-3.3.3.1 __________________________________________ Charon@freethought.org http://members.home.net/tuathadedanann/ "Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth." -Albert Einstein __________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 15: 6:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE02C15388 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:06:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA27210; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:36:01 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id IAA23993; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:35:45 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990330083545.J413@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:35:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ben Smithurst Cc: Mark Ovens , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Spot the core team member (was: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysadmins (was: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI')) References: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> <36FB890E.2178904E@uk.radan.com> <19990327110547.S425@lemis.com> <19990328121745.F264@marder-1.localhost> <19990329093454.L413@lemis.com> <19990329145344.B28074@scientia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990329145344.B28074@scientia.demon.co.uk>; from Ben Smithurst on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 02:53:44PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Monday, 29 March 1999 at 14:53:44 +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > >>>>> Ah, so it was you in the picture that Greg Lehey posted a few days ago >>>>> (in the thread about dressing up in Daemon costumes) ;-) > > [..] > >>> Was it a quiz, Greg, or were you asking because you can't remember? >> >> It's a quiz. > > Where is this picture? I must have missed it, or perhaps it was first > mentioned on a list I'm not subscribed to. You must have missed it. I posted it on this list a few weeks back. I'm attaching it again. For everybody now (core team members excluded :-): who is this? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp Content-Type: image/jpeg Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Mystery-core-team-member.jpeg" /9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD//gBIQ1JFQVRPUjogWFYgVmVyc2lvbiAzLjEwYSAgUmV2 OiAxMi8yOS85NCAgUXVhbGl0eSA9IDc1LCBTbW9vdGhpbmcgPSAwCv/bAEMACAYGBwYFCAcH BwkJCAoMFA0MCwsMGRITDxQdGh8eHRocHCAkLicgIiwjHBwoNyksMDE0NDQfJzk9ODI8LjM0 Mv/bAEMBCQkJDAsMGA0NGDIhHCEyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIy MjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMjIyMv/AABEIAoAB4AMBIgACEQEDEQH/xAAfAAABBQEBAQEBAQAAAAAA AAAAAQIDBAUGBwgJCgv/xAC1EAACAQMDAgQDBQUEBAAAAX0BAgMABBEFEiExQQYTUWEHInEU MoGRoQgjQrHBFVLR8CQzYnKCCQoWFxgZGiUmJygpKjQ1Njc4OTpDREVGR0hJSlNUVVZXWFla Y2RlZmdoaWpzdHV2d3h5eoOEhYaHiImKkpOUlZaXmJmaoqOkpaanqKmqsrO0tba3uLm6wsPE xcbHyMnK0tPU1dbX2Nna4eLj5OXm5+jp6vHy8/T19vf4+fr/xAAfAQADAQEBAQEBAQEBAAAA AAAAAQIDBAUGBwgJCgv/xAC1EQACAQIEBAMEBwUEBAABAncAAQIDEQQFITEGEkFRB2FxEyIy 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B8McqTyKkik2ybULEE96zZVKkZOMOB+lXLRjLwO2BWbTNUtTUjfJxj6j0NLIxUYU8GkUBdzE +maZI236ZqLMqxxPjWDztNZh1U7sVLoMw/sSzB/54gflTfF8hGnSY4PaqWgTB9HtB/dUj/x4 10xu4Iwkv3mhpeIj/wAU7J3O9Pw5rhc12/iBgfDsnf5k/nXDZPWtaS0M6z94634fuRrcoHJM JrufCsn+jqPauC+H7bdffgY8pq7bwySsag+p/nXn4te+zrwz/do6q4ceSfpXlfi4qBIzHGJe T7ZjNenTNlGrzTxXA06zwx/fdzj8VX/4msqOkrmsk2rI6Lw5H9lvNQtfMSTyZWj3r0bDEZFa 9w3WsHRL1L3xDq1xHCIUllaQRhvu5atqdutTJMq+pz1+23UrY+j12EEmbT8K4jUn23kBH98V 19q3+ij6VM1qmNO9zgvFJA1lD7Cu18PPmwj+lcR4s/5CkRx2rrfDUhNkgPpWlVfu4siHxMsa 5zay/wC6ayvC8uNw7YrU1g/uHH+ya5/w7IVlI9qIK9OSCT9+LP/Z --LQksG6bCIzRHxTLp-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 15:21:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F07D914C18 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:21:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: (from norn@localhost) by norn.ca.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA27591; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:20:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990330083545.J413@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:20:28 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: Chris Piazza From: Chris Piazza To: Greg Lehey Subject: RE: Spot the core team member (was: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysad Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Mark Ovens , Ben Smithurst Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Mar-99 Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 29 March 1999 at 14:53:44 +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: >> Greg Lehey wrote: >> >>>> Was it a quiz, Greg, or were you asking because you can't remember? >>> >>> It's a quiz. >> >> Where is this picture? I must have missed it, or perhaps it was first >> mentioned on a list I'm not subscribed to. > > You must have missed it. I posted it on this list a few weeks back. > I'm attaching it again. > > For everybody now (core team members excluded :-): who is this? > Peter. (I hope ;) --- Chris Piazza Abbotsford, BC, Canada cpiazza@home.net finger norn@norn.ca.eu.org for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 16:21:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from icicle.winternet.com (icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4810014C3A for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:21:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com) Received: (from adm@localhost) by icicle.winternet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA26833; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:21:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from tundra.winternet.com(198.174.169.11) by icicle.winternet.com via smap (V2.0) id xma026803; Mon, 29 Mar 99 18:20:59 -0600 Received: (from nrahlstr@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id SAA01965; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:20:58 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <19990329182058.A1961@winternet.com> Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:20:58 -0600 From: Nathan Ahlstrom To: Chris Piazza , Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Spot the core team member (was: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysad References: <19990330083545.J413@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Chris Piazza on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 03:20:28PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Piazza wrote: > On 29-Mar-99 Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Monday, 29 March 1999 at 14:53:44 +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: > >> Greg Lehey wrote: > >> > >>>> Was it a quiz, Greg, or were you asking because you can't remember? > >>> > >>> It's a quiz. > >> > >> Where is this picture? I must have missed it, or perhaps it was first > >> mentioned on a list I'm not subscribed to. > > > > You must have missed it. I posted it on this list a few weeks back. > > I'm attaching it again. > > > > For everybody now (core team members excluded :-): who is this? > > > > Peter. (I hope ;) Blind guess, Bruce. -- Nathan Ahlstrom FreeBSD: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ nrahlstr@winternet.com PGP KeyID: 67BC9D19 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 16:33:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C128214E5D for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:33:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-173.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.173]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA09783; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA37289; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:11 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199903300033.SAA37289@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Ben Smithurst , Mark Ovens , FreeBSD Chat From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Spot the core team member (was: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysadmins (was: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI')) In-reply-to: Message from Greg Lehey of "Tue, 30 Mar 1999 08:35:45 +0930." <19990330083545.J413@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:11 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: [...] > For everybody now (core team members excluded :-): who is this? Steve Wozniak? :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 16:34: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA39B150A9 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:34:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-173.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.173]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA04991; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA37297; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:25 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199903300033.SAA37297@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-reply-to: Message from "G. Adam Stanislav" of "Mon, 29 Mar 1999 10:26:15 CST." <3.0.6.32.19990329102615.008f94a0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:25 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" writes: > At 21:39 26-03-1999 -0600, David Kelly wrote: > >8M is more than plenty if its VIDEO RAM, but for core? 16M is the often > >quoted minimum. At work they'll only give me 24MB. Works. Netscape has > >to swap most every time I pull down a menu. But it works. > > 8M for video? Don't I wish! Got 1 M for that, upgradeable to 2 M. I stumbled upon an 8M Matrox Millenium II for $62 last year. Snapped it up. And also snapped up a used 4M card locally for $25 (all gone now). [...] > I could probably live with twm for now if it did not lose focus when the > mouse cursor moves out of the window. When I have some time, I'll have to > analyze its source code and see if I can modify it not to lose focus. Its not that hard. "man twm" and search for focus. I find "less" from the ports is A Real Good Thing To Have, especially when reading man pages. "setenv PAGER /usr/local/bin/less" and "setenv LESS -aij5sm" then your searches will highlight the hits, the top hit on line 5. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 16:34:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CE9E151F8; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 16:34:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-173.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.173]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA31618; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA37306; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:46 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199903300033.SAA37306@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-reply-to: Message from charon@freethought.org of "Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:03:10 PST." <3.0.5.32.19990329140310.00a32df0@mail> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:46 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org charon@freethought.org writes: > At 10:39 AM 3/29/99 -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > >One strange thing though: I did that (installing KDE via > >/stand/sysinstall), and it kept complaining that X was not installed even > >though it was, just not from the ports (Pressing enter each time kept it > >moving along, just that I had to press it some 100 times or so). I have > >since reinstalled X from the ports. But I wonder if there is a way to > >register software somehow, so ports knows it already is installed for > >future reference. > > mkdir /var/db/pkg XFree86-3.3.3.1 ^ needs a slash right here The above will make most packages and ports happy but won't let you pkg_delete XFree86-3.3.3.1 as it doesn't know what to remove. As for myself, have decided building X is a good test of a freshly installed system. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 17:38: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5A2C14F17; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:38:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id UAA28595; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:37:42 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199903300137.UAA28595@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: from Dag-Erling Smorgrav at "Mar 27, 99 11:32:30 pm" To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:37:42 -0500 (EST) Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, zen@buddhist.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote, > David Kelly writes: > > I never could remember how to spell apropos but could always remember, > > "man -k". > > "apropos" has two characters too many, and the letters are further > apart on the keyboard than "man -k". No contest. But 'apropos' only actually has 5 different characters and 'a'-'s' and 'o'-'p' are neighboring pairs on the keyboard. 'man -k' has that really long reach for the '-.' There is a contest. ;P (But if you alias 'apropos' to 'apr,' then there really is no contest. Hehe.) -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 17:53:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FF7414C0B; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:53:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA20198; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:52:44 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 19:52:43 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: cjclark@home.com Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , dkelly@hiwaay.net, zen@buddhist.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Message-ID: <19990329195243.Y17547@futuresouth.com> References: <199903300137.UAA28595@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199903300137.UAA28595@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>; from Crist J. Clark on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 08:37:42PM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 08:37:42PM -0500, a little birdie told me that Crist J. Clark remarked > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote, > > David Kelly writes: > > > I never could remember how to spell apropos but could always remember, > > > "man -k". > > > > "apropos" has two characters too many, and the letters are further > > apart on the keyboard than "man -k". No contest. > > But 'apropos' only actually has 5 different characters and 'a'-'s' and > 'o'-'p' are neighboring pairs on the keyboard. 'man -k' has that > really long reach for the '-.' There is a contest. ;P > > (But if you alias 'apropos' to 'apr,' then there really is no > contest. Hehe.) [19:52:15] mortis:~ (ttyp2):{432}% grep apropos .tcshrc alias ? 'apropos' Even easier ;> --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 18:33:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92CDB14D27 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r0.bfm.org [208.18.213.96]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id VAA13567; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:33:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990329203142.008fae20@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:31:42 -0600 To: David Kelly From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903300033.SAA37297@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <3.0.6.32.19990329102615.008f94a0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:33 29-03-1999 -0600, David Kelly wrote: >Its not that hard. "man twm" and search for focus. Alas, there is no command listed that would prevent a window from losing focus once the pointer leaves it. :-( I thought that NoTitleFocus might do that, but it did not. This is in accordance with what Unix Unleashed says: You need something other than twm if you want to keep focus on a window when you move the pointer out of it. So, for now, I should probably stick to using FreeBSD in console mode only. I need more memory, and I cannot afford it at this time (I know people say memory is cheap; it is not cheap to me with my $6.25-an-hour income, and I just bought the hard disk). I happen to be the ultimate proof that Stallman is full of it when he says programmers can earn a living by giving their software away for free (which I keep doing but certainly not to make a living). But I better not get started on that one. :-) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 18:49: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1F5314F64; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:48:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id EAA10965; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 04:48:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: cjclark@home.com Cc: dkelly@hiwaay.net, zen@buddhist.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars References: <199903300137.UAA28595@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 30 Mar 1999 04:48:36 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Crist J. Clark"'s message of "Mon, 29 Mar 1999 20:37:42 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Crist J. Clark" writes: > But 'apropos' only actually has 5 different characters and 'a'-'s' and > 'o'-'p' are neighboring pairs on the keyboard. 'man -k' has that > really long reach for the '-.' There is a contest. ;P It's not a really long reach on a norwegian keyboard :) DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 21: 7:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B01414BDA; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:07:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id AAA29299; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:05:22 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199903300505.AAA29299@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <19990329195243.Y17547@futuresouth.com> from "Matthew D. Fuller" at "Mar 29, 99 07:52:43 pm" To: fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:05:22 -0500 (EST) Cc: cjclark@home.com, des@flood.ping.uio.no, dkelly@hiwaay.net, zen@buddhist.com, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Matthew D. Fuller wrote, > On Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 08:37:42PM -0500, a little birdie told me > that Crist J. Clark remarked > > > > (But if you alias 'apropos' to 'apr,' then there really is no > > contest. Hehe.) > > [19:52:15] mortis:~ > (ttyp2):{432}% grep apropos .tcshrc > alias ? 'apropos' > > Even easier ;> Eep! Aliasing it to a character that has special meaning to the shell?! That's begging for trouble. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 21:28:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFD3A14D7B for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:28:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id VAA21878; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:28:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:28:20 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: Nathan Dorfman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tattoos? Message-ID: <19990329212820.B21644@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net>; from Nathan Dorfman on Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html > > Anyone up for a BSD daemon tattoo? Shucks, I'm <18, someone else > will have to do it. :-) My best friend and partner in crime, Nicole, has one. It's very cool. I have to find the time to get one just like it. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 22:19:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4065B14CB2 for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:19:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990330062052.ELKW5470601.mta2-rme@wocker>; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:20:52 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Jonathan Chen Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:19:01 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: ftp.nz.freebsd.org Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990330062052.ELKW5470601.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 30 Mar 99, at 9:36, Jonathan Chen wrote: > Just out of curiousity, I wondered whether ftp.nz.freebsd.org was in > use, and I was surprised when `ftp ftp.nz.freebsd.org' actually came > back with something! > > Hmm. No FreeBSD mirror there. It's Clear-Net's (a major NZ ISP) FTP > server. Anybody know the reason why ftp.nz.freebsd.org is pointing > there? No idea. I actually thought it was about to be delegated to myself. At least, that's what I understood was in motion... -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 22:45:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2499114C3B for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:45:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #4) id 10Rlak-00097f-00; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:37:14 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 00:37:13 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Greg Lehey Cc: Mark Ovens , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Spot the core team member (was: Bearded and hairy UNIX sysadmins (was: For French readers: Nice article in 'LMI')) Message-ID: <19990330003713.A35005@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <199903261308.OAA12081@rt2.synx.com> <36FB890E.2178904E@uk.radan.com> <19990327110547.S425@lemis.com> <19990328121745.F264@marder-1.localhost> <19990329093454.L413@lemis.com> <19990329145344.B28074@scientia.demon.co.uk> <19990330083545.J413@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990330083545.J413@lemis.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: >> Where is this picture? I must have missed it, or perhaps it was first >> mentioned on a list I'm not subscribed to. > > You must have missed it. I posted it on this list a few weeks back. > I'm attaching it again. > > For everybody now (core team members excluded :-): who is this? Peter Wemm? -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk send a blank message to ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Mar 29 22:50:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E42AF14C3B for ; Mon, 29 Mar 1999 22:50:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10RsLm-0007aS-0A; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 06:50:14 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA01907; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 07:49:46 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA01298; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 07:49:45 +0100 Message-ID: <370073E5.8A887571@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 07:49:09 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars References: <3.0.6.32.19990329102615.008f94a0@mail.bfm.org> <3.0.6.32.19990329203142.008fae20@mail.bfm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > Alas, there is no command listed that would prevent a window from losing > focus once the pointer leaves it. :-( > > I thought that NoTitleFocus might do that, but it did not. > > This is in accordance with what Unix Unleashed says: You need something > other than twm if you want to keep focus on a window when you move the > pointer out of it. > > So, for now, I should probably stick to using FreeBSD in console mode only. > I need more memory, I forget what started this discussion, but it sounds as though you are wanting a WM with low resource overhead abd which allows a window to retain focus when the mouse pointer leaves it. If this is the case why not try olvwm (Sun's OpenLook)? It uses single colour icons, has no task bar etc. and has a "ClickToType" resource setting that keeps focus on a window until you click in another (I personally use the traditional "focus follows mouse" method). HTH -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 5:58:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5426D15AF5 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 05:58:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-064.thuntek.net [207.66.52.64]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id GAA10322; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 06:53:03 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3700D6CA.A427640@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 06:51:06 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars References: <3.0.6.32.19990329102615.008f94a0@mail.bfm.org> <3.0.6.32.19990329203142.008fae20@mail.bfm.org> <370073E5.8A887571@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > > "G. Adam Stanislav" wrote: > > > > Alas, there is no command listed that would prevent a window from losing > > focus once the pointer leaves it. :-( > > > > I thought that NoTitleFocus might do that, but it did not. > > > > This is in accordance with what Unix Unleashed says: You need something > > other than twm if you want to keep focus on a window when you move the > > pointer out of it. > > > > So, for now, I should probably stick to using FreeBSD in console mode only. > > I need more memory, > > I forget what started this discussion, but it sounds as though you are > wanting a WM with low resource overhead abd which allows a window to > retain focus when the mouse pointer leaves it. If this is the case why > not try olvwm (Sun's OpenLook)? It uses single colour icons, has no > task bar etc. and has a "ClickToType" resource setting that keeps > focus on a window until you click in another (I personally use the > traditional "focus follows mouse" method). > and fvwm can be configured with a one-line change to be ClickToFocus. I've always thought it to be 'low-resource', but then I never build an X machine with less than 32M... -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 9:36:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailgate.nortel.ca (mailgate.NortelNetworks.com [192.58.194.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864D414CCA for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 09:36:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mmercer@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from zcars01t by mailgate.nortel.ca; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:34:36 -0500 Received: from zrchb213.us.nortel.com by zcars01t; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:31:44 -0500 Received: from zrtpd00n.us.nortel.com ([47.156.175.67]) by zrchb213.us.nortel.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id H8H6R35L; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:31:32 -0600 Received: from brtphb42.us.nortel.com by zrtpd00n.us.nortel.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.0.1460.8) id 1WMNY8DM; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:31:33 -0500 Message-ID: <37010A7D.AFCF022D@nortelnetworks.com> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:31:41 -0500 From: "Michael Mercer" Reply-To: "Michael Mercer" , mmercer@ipass.net Organization: Nortel X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51C-CCK-MCD [en] (X11; I; HP-UX B.10.20 9000/778) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Thanks to Greg Lehey. and PicoBSD. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Orig: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg, I would have sent you a thank to your email except I am at work now. Thanks for your help involving the 3.1 Stable kernel just hanging... the PicoBSD you suggested worked like a charm! Also a Thanks to the PICOBSD project crew! later Michael Mercer -- - Smile!! It makes people wonder what you're up to! - Michael E. Mercer Alumni - Fayetteville State University - Nortel - Research Triangle Park - mmercer@nortelnetworks.com - Work - mmercer@ipass.net - Personal - mercer@sequent.uncfsu.edu - School - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 10:23:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6334314CCD; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:23:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA22705; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:32:09 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd022622; Tue Mar 30 12:31:57 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA14513; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:23:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903301823.LAA14513@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars To: dyson@iquest.net Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:23:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hamellr@dsinw.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903261019.FAA00733@y.dyson.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 26, 99 05:19:14 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Linux-Alpha doesn't have the 2 gig problem, and the 2.2 series does have > > > patches available to go past the 2 gig limit. > > > > Which is why I personally don't like Linux. It seems that you're > > always loading patches to fix little problems. :) Granted FreeBSD has > > patches too. But when was the last time you needed a patch? :) Anyways, > > isn't the Linux patch still limited to 8 gigs or so? > > IMO, it is *silly* that Linux doesn't support large files correctly. If > it doesn't support large files on an X86, then it doesn't support large > files. There was alot of pressure from the user and developer base when > FreeBSD didn't properly support large files, and I am surprised that > either the Linux base hasn't pressured for proper support for large files, > or the Linux developers can't figure out how to do it. (I sure hope that > it isn't arrogance on their part that it isn't "needed.") Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only 6 months ahead, like everyone else. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 10:40:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C68015114 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:40:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09282; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:40:02 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd009199; Tue Mar 30 11:39:54 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA15833; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:39:52 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903301839.LAA15833@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:39:52 +0000 (GMT) Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903261129.GAA08569@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 26, 99 06:29:33 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Don't be intentionally ignorant. As I stated above, there are patches. > > Logically, one might take that to mean that Linux developers can indeed > > figure out how to do it. Fanaticism is soooo irritating. > > Well, why isn't it in the distribution? Why has it taken soooo long? The > key is that I listened to the user base, and did some seriously grungy > programming. There was little elitism, but simply to do what was needed. Why doesn't FreeBSD FS stacking work? Why was X.25 broken, and then not fixed? Why was LFS broken, and then not fixed? Why does the VM system like to write password database pages back to the crontab, if you stress the system by running newsyslog once a minute from a cron that modifes copy-on-write pages mmap'ping the password database into code, as if the pointers in the pwent pointed back to static buffers in the C library? Why does it take more than one floppy to install, when we have sufficient BIOS thunking technology that a boot floppy doesn't *need* any native drivers for hardware? Why is the resolver still in the C library, instead of in "libresolv"? Why is it single threaded? Why is it hopelessly out of date? Why hasn't anyone with any official standing with the project contacted MITRE for their FreeBSD NetBEUI implementation? Where is IPv6? Where is the IPv4 compatability, with IPv6 enabled by default as the transport of choice? Where's the FreeBSD nsswitch code? How is it possible that professional engineers can still check in code that won't build when it's checked out? In a more general sense: Why are most of the Usenix papers scheduled this year not about work done on FreeBSD, if FreeBSD is the premeire research OS? Where is the research? FreeBSD has it's own problems in the "show me the money" vein. > made, and FreeBSD development being mired in short term expediency. In > fact, the FreeBSD solution has been being discussed on the Linux mailing > lists, and wonder if they looked at what we did? It is much easier to > copy a design, than to actually think... Linux has shown a willingness to implement design that FreeBSD has only given lip service to, time and again. Linux is, unfortunately, where research is taking place. > It seems that fanaticism is where an inferior decision is being made, > whilst a correct solution already exists :-). A little verbal sparring > is nowhere near the insanity of wasting effort with reimplementation. E.g., FreeBSD's implementation of a kernel linker *after* Linux? I tried to implement a kernel linker for FreeBSD, and was met with a "not in *my* kernel". I had to settle for an inferior external linker mechanism; and viola, LKM's were born. Similar stories exist elsehwere in the history of the project: POSIX threads, the addition of system calls, like "issetuid" (or whatever). Julian's right; someone needs to do real architectural work. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 10:57:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF8BE153E9 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 10:57:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA16384; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:56:56 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd016270; Tue Mar 30 11:56:47 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA17612; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:56:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903301856.LAA17612@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: http://www.peterzale.com/377.html To: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:56:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199903261856.MAA14323@free.pcs> from "Jonathan Lemon" at Mar 26, 99 12:56:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Yeah, me too. Do they really have women like that at MIT? :-) > >> > >> So will somebody tell me the answer to the riddle at > >> http://www.peterzale.com/vacation.html ? > > > >Dunno. The 76th is an engineering battalian. > > I have no idea either, but I think you meant the the 86th Army of Indiana, > which is an engineering battalion. > > It could be the 76th Fighter Squadron of the 23rd Fighter group, 14th AF. > Or VC-76, of the Navy. I have no idea what the strip is referring to. Probably it's more proper to say they "were an engineering battalion in the Korean war". I picked the Korean war due to the reference to "VC Gunner"; I guess "VC" could be a Vietnam reference, but I'm pretty sure the 76th din't have any Viet Cong soldiers officially attached to them. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 11: 7:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33ABC153E9 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:07:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA11695; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:16:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd011624; Tue Mar 30 13:16:06 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA18598; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:07:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903301907.MAA18598@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Why no FreeBSD coffee mugs? To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr (Ollivier Robert) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:07:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990327004128.A35888@keltia.freenix.fr> from "Ollivier Robert" at Mar 27, 99 00:41:29 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Walnut Creek used to sell FreeBSD mugs two years ago but stopped because > the high ratio of broken ones during shipping. I ordered 14 for a few > friends and I at that time and 6 were broken... > > WC changed them and I can understand them stopping selling 'em. > > I show mine at work whenever possible :-) In the book "A complaint is a gift", a similar example is given in two different locations. Rather than not shipping product, the companies involved changed their packaging system used for shipping thier products. Amazingly enough, these companies are both thriving today; if I remember correctly, it has something to do with being able to get goods to customers intact. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 11:23:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1024114FE1 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:23:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr06.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA27303; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:22:52 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr06.primenet.com(206.165.6.206) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd027274; Tue Mar 30 12:22:51 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr06.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA19972; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:22:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903301922.MAA19972@usr06.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Sweet news 8) To: hasty@rah.star-gate.com (Amancio Hasty) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:22:44 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903270307.TAA01299@rah.star-gate.com> from "Amancio Hasty" at Mar 26, 99 07:07:56 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "Major e-mail virus " hits corporate hard . The article reports that in one > company > 60,000 machines were affected . > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2233030,00.html > > Perhaps some of the security oriented FreeBSD companies can capitalize on the > good news!! "FreeBSD can protect you from the Melissa virus" (despite the fact that it's techniocally a bacterium. ontologically speaking...). Here is a Melissa "patch" for sendmail .mc files (from sendmail.com): --------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOCAL_RULESETS # Kludgey Melissa virus checking routine. # Just need enough of a pattern to match. # Instructional note: # The format for the rule is # RExactly the thing you want to quote # No quote marks, no tabs, absolutely nothing in # parentheses (like this, they're considered comments # and will be removed before they get to the rules). # After the exact thing, then a tab, and the $#error. # Note, the $* matches anything, so it's useful for # wildcarding. This also scans all messages with # Subject: headers and invokes a rule, so there is # a performance hit. HSubject: $>Check_Subject D{MPat}Important Message From D{MMsg}This message may contain the Melissa virus. SCheck_Subject R${MPat} $* $#error $: 553 ${MMsg} RRe: ${MPat} $* $#error $: 553 ${MMsg} --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Make sure you replace the spaces between "$*" and "$#" with a single tab. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 11:51:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from geek.grf.ov.com (geek.grf.ov.com [192.251.86.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68E9B15AD9 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 11:51:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from pebbles (pebbles.cam.veritas.com [166.98.49.16]) by geek.grf.ov.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id OAA06407; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:51:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: X-Sender: ksmm@mail.cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:45:11 -0500 To: Terry Lambert From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: FreeBSD is running out of time Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903301823.LAA14513@usr06.primenet.com> References: <199903261019.FAA00733@y.dyson.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So what are these additional fields being used for now? And is there a solution available or in the works to solve the 2038 bug in FreeBSD? Or will we just all be using Linux after that point? :-/ K.S. At 01:23 PM 3/30/99, Terry Lambert wrote: > >Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... > >IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were >reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't >exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. > >But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only >6 months ahead, like everyone else. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 12:28:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 133A814D21 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 12:28:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 5996 invoked from network); 30 Mar 1999 20:28:29 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 30 Mar 1999 20:28:29 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA16589; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:28:27 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903302028.PAA16589@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <199903301839.LAA15833@usr06.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 30, 99 06:39:52 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:28:23 -0500 (EST) Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Don't be intentionally ignorant. As I stated above, there are patches. > > > Logically, one might take that to mean that Linux developers can indeed > > > figure out how to do it. Fanaticism is soooo irritating. > > > > Well, why isn't it in the distribution? Why has it taken soooo long? The > > key is that I listened to the user base, and did some seriously grungy > > programming. There was little elitism, but simply to do what was needed. > > Why doesn't FreeBSD FS stacking work? > It never did, and there hasn't been much demand. It actually would be worthwhile to totally remove the stacking, or fix it with a VM approach. It is totally wrong to use buffer/VP approach, but there are those who advocate it (too many people are "bp" heads -- bp's are good only for I/O, not object or caching representation.) FS stacking will not help to gain commercial work, but properly working reasonbly sized file I/O does. > > Why was X.25 broken, and then > not fixed? > I don't know. I guess that it is an orphan, where the implementation hasn't been commercially interesting (or the companies aren't contributing the work back.) It certainly isn't interesting from a research or fun standpoint. Since companies like Whistle do networking, it would be nice to see a contribution in that area? (I know that there is supposedly alot of X.25 stuff out there, but why hasn't it been supported? Answer: apparently other types of X.25 interfacing methods are being used.) > > Why was LFS broken, and then not fixed? > It was always broken, and has always been basically a festering mess. LFS wasn't rewritten because softupdates has been the better answer for most of what LFS can do. It is totally wrong to implement a bp based LFS anyway, note the hacks in vfs_bio to support that travesty. > > Why does the VM > system like to write password database pages back to the crontab, if > you stress the system by running newsyslog once a minute from a cron > that modifes copy-on-write pages mmap'ping the password database into > code, as if the pointers in the pwent pointed back to static buffers > in the C library? > Which version? and please PR it. I have *never* seen it in person recently, and locally hacked kernels can cause unexpected brokenness. The problem of modified programs has been fixed a long time ago. Also, it has taken awhile to find someone competent to work on the VM/VFS code. There is a possibility now, but most of the people with the "balls" to work on the code with commit frenzies, are often not careful enough to do so. Time for cowboys is LONG LONG gone, and it seems that cowboys are the most commonly available resource. > > In a more general sense: Why are most of the Usenix papers scheduled > this year not about work done on FreeBSD, if FreeBSD is the premeire > research OS? Where is the research? > Alot of work is done privately. Research != papers, there is NO advantage for a FreeBSD team member to give away the mechanisms for FreeBSD's behavior. > > FreeBSD has it's own problems in the "show me the money" vein. > > > > made, and FreeBSD development being mired in short term expediency. In > > fact, the FreeBSD solution has been being discussed on the Linux mailing > > lists, and wonder if they looked at what we did? It is much easier to > > copy a design, than to actually think... > > Linux has shown a willingness to implement design that FreeBSD has > only given lip service to, time and again. Linux is, unfortunately, > where research is taking place. > The ones doing real work will continue to use BSD for now. I don't consider the catchup game that you have alluded to as "research", but only catchup. You are confusing "catchup" with research. Do you see the difference? (Linux's VM research is a very entertaining example: can you say lots of knobs that you need to tweak?) FreeBSD's VM has lots of knobs, but those knobs are only desirable for atypical configurations. > > > It seems that fanaticism is where an inferior decision is being made, > > whilst a correct solution already exists :-). A little verbal sparring > > is nowhere near the insanity of wasting effort with reimplementation. > > E.g., FreeBSD's implementation of a kernel linker *after* Linux? I > tried to implement a kernel linker for FreeBSD, and was met with a > "not in *my* kernel". I had to settle for an inferior external > linker mechanism; and viola, LKM's were born. Similar stories exist > elsehwere in the history of the project: POSIX threads, the addition > of system calls, like "issetuid" (or whatever). > > You can talk a good talk, but I would have adopted your work if it was worthwhile to do so (I wanted to, in fact.) I didn't have the energy to maintain the mess that your changes would have caused. It is better to deal with the mess one knows, rather than the mess that one doesn't :-). The changes that did get adopted were good, but did require support. (Sometimes your stuff was good, but much of the time, not complete enough.) > > Julian's right; someone needs to do real architectural work. > Time for Julian/Terry BSD. I am not really interested in armchair quarterbacks unless they are willing and able to help solve the problems. One reason why my code hadn't made it into FreeBSD's tree when I left, was because of QC issues. It takes restraint to keep from hacking the tree, and yet there is the need for architectural work. But who? There are precious few people available to do the FreeBSD architectural work (who are competent enough.) I do not include myself in that group, but would support someone who is willing and able. If my work would not be wasted, I would aggressively support such a developer (and continually do in the background.) John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 13: 7:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D998B14D0D for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:07:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA12977; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:06:55 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd012947; Tue Mar 30 14:06:49 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA00916; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:06:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903302106.OAA00916@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD is running out of time To: ksmm@threespace.com (The Classiest Man Alive) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:06:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "The Classiest Man Alive" at Mar 30, 99 02:45:11 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So what are these additional fields being used for now? And is there a > solution available or in the works to solve the 2038 bug in FreeBSD? Or > will we just all be using Linux after that point? :-/ > > >Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... > > > >IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were > >reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't > >exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. > > > >But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only > >6 months ahead, like everyone else. The fields were coopted for nanosecond "accuracy" for the make(1) modification time dependency to support sub-second granularity. Since only the modification time has this exposure requirement, this could have easily been accomplished via use of a spare field. In reality, the requirement only exists for generated files for which the graph closure is dynamically updated between the time of the file generation and the next run. Basically, in order to trigger a "problem" from, this, you would need to generate a generated file from a generated file during a 3 Makefile recursive descent, or you would need a two Makefile lateral dependency (this is just bad Makefile coding, but it's a possible scenario). The failure mode would cause the regeneration of the target file; in other words, the failure is harmless. An alternate workaround would be to ensure that the time has increased from the last stamping. This is a potential "round up" to one second for all operations. Considering that what we're talking about is subsecond operations, redoing the operation is hardly a hardship, though it might cause your "make world" ``benchmark'' to take a second more than it would have (big whoop). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 13:13:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (pinnacle.internet.co.nz [210.48.55.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF0AC14F8B for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:13:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.2]) by kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01418 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:10:37 +1200 (NZST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:10:37 +1200 (NZST) From: Jonathan Chen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD is running out of time In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 30 Mar 1999, The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > So what are these additional fields being used for now? And is there a > solution available or in the works to solve the 2038 bug in FreeBSD? Or > will we just all be using Linux after that point? :-/ > > K.S. > > > At 01:23 PM 3/30/99, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > >Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... > > > >IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were > >reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't > >exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. Other points to consider: Will/Should the solution be backward-compatible with all the FreeBSD FFS already created out there? Will we still be using FFS? -- Jonathan Chen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- "A person should be able to do a small bit of everything, specialisation is for insects" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 13:33:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freed.libdns.qc.ca (derby.JSP.UMontreal.CA [132.204.45.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5392150D6 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 13:33:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from spidey@libdns.qc.ca) Received: from localhost (spidey@localhost) by freed.libdns.qc.ca (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id QAA03390 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:32:56 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from spidey@libdns.qc.ca) X-Authentication-Warning: freed.libdns.qc.ca: spidey owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:32:55 -0500 (EST) From: Spidey Reply-To: Spidey To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Checkpassword port (stupid question) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What does this port do? I don't understand the DESCR in the ports, no more than the files in the distribution... Does it replace the login/ftp/whatever interfaces??? thanks for comments (not for flames though! :) When a man lies he murders some part of the world These are the pale deaths which men miscall their lives All this I can witness any longer Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 14: 0:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B532B1502E for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:00:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 27639 invoked from network); 30 Mar 1999 22:00:03 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 30 Mar 1999 22:00:03 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA16694; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:00:02 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903302200.RAA16694@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <199903301823.LAA14513@usr06.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 30, 99 06:23:05 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:00:02 -0500 (EST) Cc: dyson@iquest.net, hamellr@dsinw.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > Linux-Alpha doesn't have the 2 gig problem, and the 2.2 series does have > > > > patches available to go past the 2 gig limit. > > > > > > Which is why I personally don't like Linux. It seems that you're > > > always loading patches to fix little problems. :) Granted FreeBSD has > > > patches too. But when was the last time you needed a patch? :) Anyways, > > > isn't the Linux patch still limited to 8 gigs or so? > > > > IMO, it is *silly* that Linux doesn't support large files correctly. If > > it doesn't support large files on an X86, then it doesn't support large > > files. There was alot of pressure from the user and developer base when > > FreeBSD didn't properly support large files, and I am surprised that > > either the Linux base hasn't pressured for proper support for large files, > > or the Linux developers can't figure out how to do it. (I sure hope that > > it isn't arrogance on their part that it isn't "needed.") > > Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... > > IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were > reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't > exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. > > But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only > 6 months ahead, like everyone else. > Since the *fix* wasn't implemented, then the fix wasn't broken. Nothing additional was broken, and a better fix will eventually be created (e.g. changed inode structure for ACL support?) If you think that the ODS needs to be fixed, then fix it!!! :-). If it ends up being a solution rather than a hack, then it might just be adopted. If the "fix" ends up requiring lots of support from others, then the chance of the "idea" being adopted is lessened. But, please don't proclaim an idea as an implementation, and don't proclaim a piece of hackery as a "solution." I understand your frustration, but because YOUR projects don't get the highest priority doesn't mean that you are being ignored. It seems odd to me that some people think that others should support their works. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 14: 8:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A1A615A9E for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:08:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10662; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:07:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd010643; Tue Mar 30 15:07:45 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA05079; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:07:43 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903302207.PAA05079@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:07:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903302028.PAA16589@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 30, 99 03:28:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Why doesn't FreeBSD FS stacking work? > > It never did, and there hasn't been much demand. Hey, speak for yourself. I've gone so far as to approach John Heidemann about rereleasing his code donated to the CSRG under the GPL for a Linux implementation (yes, I'm deadly serious). John's stuff worked before it was damaged into inoperability, and it currently works fine on BSDI. > It actually would be worthwhile to totally remove the stacking, or fix > it with a VM approach. It is totally wrong to use buffer/VP approach, > but there are those who advocate it (too many people are "bp" heads -- > bp's are good only for I/O, not object or caching representation.) It is wrong to think of vnodes as caching objects instead of backing objeccts. Yes, I know all of the unified VM and buffer cache centric arguments in favor of this, but the point of having a well defined framework and API is the ability to share FS code with other OS's. And not all other OS's have unified VM and buffer caches. Implemetnation of a common API must take into account the lowest common denominator, or you will be creating a FreeBSD specific API that is not generally useful. > FS stacking will not help to gain commercial work, but properly working > reasonbly sized file I/O does. It is (or should be, since the announcement on these lists last week) well known that Veritas is porting to Linux. This code would work in FreeBSD as well, if the Linux and FreeBSD VFS stacking frameworks were identical API's. Because the API's are not identical (in fact, both are sufficiently fluid and architecturally damaged as to render them nearly useless), this work is bound to be another checkmark in the Linux column that will remain absent from the FreeBSD column. > > Why was X.25 broken, and then > > not fixed? > > I don't know. I guess that it is an orphan, where the implementation hasn't > been commercially interesting (or the companies aren't contributing the work > back.) It certainly isn't interesting from a research or fun standpoint. > Since companies like Whistle do networking, it would be nice to see a > contribution in that area? (I know that there is supposedly alot of X.25 > stuff out there, but why hasn't it been supported? Answer: apparently > other types of X.25 interfacing methods are being used.) The real answer is that it was broken when someone was permitted to change interfaces upon which it depended, but was not thereafter held accountable for keeping the "unsexy" code working. To use your terminology, "it was a cowboy what done it". > > Why was LFS broken, and then not fixed? > > It was always broken, and has always been basically a festering mess. I think Margo Seltzer would take some issue with this. I would trust her authority as an FS expert above that of anyone in the core team; after all, file systems are her life's work. > LFS wasn't rewritten because softupdates has been the better answer > for most of what LFS can do. Soft updates as they are realized in FreeBSD are a tiny fraction of what they could, and should, have been. I have had discussions with Both Ganger and Patt via email, and discussions in person with Kirk about the general soloution for the problem. The FreeBSD soloution is far from general (or dependencies would be capable of spanning stacking layers, and it would be possible to build a transaction system into the kernel, accessible from user space, and making such implied data consistency guarantees as need to support true database systems). While Dr. McKusick has made some good points in favor of the less general soloution (including "that's not what Whistle paid him to do"), his arguments about dependency representation are not among them. There is no reason for the dependency representation to bloat up as a result of generalizing the relationships. The code that is lacking generality is not the dependency representation, nor the dependency conflict resoloution, but in fact the conflict and dependent event registration mechanisms. Right now, the edges and the nodal relationships are hard coded in the structure of the code. It is entirely possible to replace this code with code that implements resolver and event-of-interest registration at the time filesystems are instanced. Yes, this requires either a Warshall's algorithm at instance time to precalculate the relationships -- BUT THIS IS NOT RUNTIME OVERHEAD, any more than the VOP descriptor arrays should constitute runtime overhead. Clever use of Hamiltonians would allow incremental caluclation of Warshall's by precomputing everything but leaf nodes. Sedgewick discusses this algorithm in his book. Even so, there is still a reason for Journalling and Logging. If nothing else, it allows for deterministic failure recovery, whereas asoft updates merely guarantee consistency, without any recourse for software fault tolernace in the fact of implied relationships (e.g., the relationship between a "rerods" file and an "index" file in a simple relational database). These issues can not be resolved until it is possible to acknowledge a transaction as having completed ONLY AFTER SUFFICIENT INFORMATION IS COMMITTED TO STABLE STORAGE, SUCH THAT IT MAY BE ROLLED FORWARD AFTER A FAILURE. This distinction is of paramount importances, and can not be over-emphasized. > It is totally wrong to implement a bp > based LFS anyway, note the hacks in vfs_bio to support that travesty. With respect, these are historical artifacts that also applied to the FFS of the same code vintage, and which predate the unification of the VM and buffer cache code. This is a case of failure to cross "T"'s and dot "I"'s during the VM and buffer cache unification wherein the equivalent FFS issues *were* addressed. Code does not mutate. If code stops working, it is a failure in maintenance, not a failure of the code (presuming it worked beforehand -- and LFS did; it merely lacked a cleaner process to deal with issue like garbage collection and fragmentations -- issues addressed in later versions of Margo's code). > > Why does the VM > > system like to write password database pages back to the crontab, if > > you stress the system by running newsyslog once a minute from a cron > > that modifes copy-on-write pages mmap'ping the password database into > > code, as if the pointers in the pwent pointed back to static buffers > > in the C library? > > Which version? and please PR it. I have *never* seen it in person recently, > and locally hacked kernels can cause unexpected brokenness. The problem > of modified programs has been fixed a long time ago. Also, it has taken > awhile to find someone competent to work on the VM/VFS code. There > is a possibility now, but most of the people with the "balls" to work > on the code with commit frenzies, are often not careful enough to do so. I believe Matt has much of this in hand. But it is certainly not finding it's way back into 2.x-STABLE, per the developement model. Yes, I know that -current is 4.x now, and 3.1-STABLE is the maintenance target, but the fact remains that these problems were identified during the period of time when the 2.x-STABLE branch was *supposedly* being actively maintained. I *personnaly* identified two of these problems, in great gory detail, and their existance was "pooh-pooh"'ed until 2.x was no longer an active maintenance release. I had to fincd explicity demonstration cases for the people who didn't feel like bothering to try to follow my theoretical arguments, and refused to work from anything but concrete examples. > Time for cowboys is LONG LONG gone, and it seems that cowboys are the most > commonly available resource. What do you expect, when you set up camp outside Dodge City? Bankers? > > In a more general sense: Why are most of the Usenix papers scheduled > > this year not about work done on FreeBSD, if FreeBSD is the premeire > > research OS? Where is the research? > > Alot of work is done privately. Research != papers, there is NO advantage > for a FreeBSD team member to give away the mechanisms for FreeBSD's behavior. Malarkey. What do you care if the software running the ATM machine and using the correct algorithm is FreeBSD, or some other software using the correct algorithm? The point of the exercise is to increase overall correctness in the world. What's the point of using a BSD license, if the intent is not to spread the code as far and as wide as possible? C.v. TCP/IP. Obscurity hurts everyone. The obscurity of the VM algorithms (not to pick favorites, but the VM system is one place where complexity was allowed to grow in FreeBSD unshackled by the "we must understand this if you do" mentality) was, in fact, damaging to Matt's ability to contribute. It was not Matt's cowboy nature, but rather the inability of a core team to impose a vetting process on somone who could spend between 12 and 16 hours a day coding on nothing but FreeBSD. > > Linux has shown a willingness to implement design that FreeBSD has > > only given lip service to, time and again. Linux is, unfortunately, > > where research is taking place. > > The ones doing real work will continue > to use BSD for now. I don't consider the catchup game that you have alluded > to as "research", but only catchup. You are confusing "catchup" with > research. Do you see the difference? (Linux's VM research is a very > entertaining example: can you say lots of knobs that you need to tweak?) > FreeBSD's VM has lots of knobs, but those knobs are only desirable for > atypical configurations. I see the difference. However, the VM system is about the only place that this can be inexpertly defended. All other places, Linux is close enough that you have to defend such issues with very hard facts. But compare either to SVR4 ES/MP, or Dynix, of 5 years ago, and both FreeBSD and Linux have areas which are still *laughably* primative, with no apparent interest or desire to address them. SMP is one such area; a firm DDI/DKI is another. > You can talk a good talk, but I would have adopted your work if it > was worthwhile to do so (I wanted to, in fact.) I didn't have the > energy to maintain the mess that your changes would have caused. It > is better to deal with the mess one knows, rather than the mess > that one doesn't :-). The changes that did get adopted were good, > but did require support. > > (Sometimes your stuff was good, but much of the time, not complete > enough.) "Better the devil you know" has never been a sound technological argument. I don't need to reach into my own arse for my examples (though such examples abound); I can point at the networking stuff that Garret did, which was brilliant, but which was ripped out due to it not being completed in what someone arbitrarily decided was a timely pashion. There is code from Julian, PHK, and Bruce Evans that falls into this same category. William's serial driver code, or Vadim Antonov's floppy tape driver design (from BSDI). There are literally thousands of such examples. > > Julian's right; someone needs to do real architectural work. > > Time for Julian/Terry BSD. You've been reading too much advocacy. I have had sufficient opportunity for such a thing in the past. And I have resisted. I have resisted not only my own opportunity, but that of others, as well. Schism is not the answer, unless you have a social framework ready to go in the post-schism universe. I am frankly of the opinion now that much of "the FreeBSD problem" is a macro effect of a micro rule, imposed by the tools available, and, in fact, CVS in particular. Many macro behaviours derive from micro rules which prohibit individual behaviours which are, in fact, available to the group. Like the patchkit before it (something which, sociologically, I still deeply regret), the use of CVS in the current system limits the size, length, magnitude, and duration of branches which diverge from the common vision (and common visions, themselves, are myopic by their natures). > I am not really interested in armchair > quarterbacks unless they are willing and able to help solve the problems. And likewise, for people willing and able to accept that help. The sword of Damocles is a two edged blade, as were most gladius's, and that blade cuts both ways. > One reason why my code hadn't made it into FreeBSD's tree when I left, > was because of QC issues. It takes restraint to keep from hacking the > tree, and yet there is the need for architectural work. But who? Pick someone. Someone with a vision in excess of six months. Pick Kirk McKusick, if he's willing, or David Greenman, if he can be freed from the morass of crises an minutia into which has obviously been dragging him away from the architects drafting table. Don't involve the architect(s) (or allow them to involve themselves!) in the petty day-to-day infighting. But for God's sake, pick someone. > There are precious few people available to do the FreeBSD architectural > work (who are competent enough.) I do not include myself in that group, > but would support someone who is willing and able. If my work would not > be wasted, I would aggressively support such a developer (and continually > do in the background.) As would I. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 14:19: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AEA15C13; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 14:19:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA10504; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:18:41 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd010408; Tue Mar 30 15:18:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA06239; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:18:29 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903302218.PAA06239@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:18:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dyson@iquest.net, hamellr@dsinw.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903302200.RAA16694@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 30, 99 05:00:02 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... > > > > IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were > > reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't > > exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. > > > > But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only > > 6 months ahead, like everyone else. > > Since the *fix* wasn't implemented, then the fix wasn't broken. Since the "fix" contradicted a clear architectural direction set by CSRG with clear foresight of the Y2038 problem, it violated the architectural principles which resulted in the field reservation. > Nothing additional was broken, and a better fix will eventually be > created Excuse me, ask Kirk. He designed the damn FFS with those reserved fields for a reason. > (e.g. changed inode structure for ACL support?) This is what stacking layers and namespace escapes were invented for. This is why John's students have been able to implement such VFS stacking layers (albeit, not in FreeBSD, where layer stacking is broken), but the architectural principles are surely not that difficult to grasp. I am aware of the ideas being floated to support ACL's in NetBSD; an implementation that doubles the size of the inode is a bad idea. Take it from me; I doubled the size of the inode for a commercial FS, so I well know of that which I speak. > If you think that the ODS needs to be fixed, then fix it!!! :-). If > it ends up being a solution rather than a hack, then it might just be > adopted. If the "fix" ends up requiring lots of support from others, > then the chance of the "idea" being adopted is lessened. How could the intended use of the fields, now that they contain non-zero data instead of zeros, per the backward compatability requirement of the original design for the Y2038 fix, be anything *but* a hack? The data is on the disks; the damage is done. > But, please don't proclaim an idea as an implementation, and don't > proclaim a piece of hackery as a "solution." I understand your frustration, > but because YOUR projects don't get the highest priority doesn't mean > that you are being ignored. It seems odd to me that some people think > that others should support their works. What about CSRG's project? Those spare fields were intentional, not accidental. Rail as you might, those fields were coopted, not architected, away. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 15: 3:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 3C3F514C2D for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:03:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 4826 invoked from network); 30 Mar 1999 23:03:16 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 30 Mar 1999 23:03:16 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA16794; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:03:10 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903302303.SAA16794@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <199903302218.PAA06239@usr04.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 30, 99 10:18:28 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:03:10 -0500 (EST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dyson@iquest.net, hamellr@dsinw.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... > > > > > > IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were > > > reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't > > > exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. > > > > > > But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only > > > 6 months ahead, like everyone else. > > > > Since the *fix* wasn't implemented, then the fix wasn't broken. > > Since the "fix" contradicted a clear architectural direction set by CSRG > with clear foresight of the Y2038 problem, it violated the architectural > principles which resulted in the field reservation. > That begs the issue that nothing was broken, because the fields weren't used. The fix didn't exist at all in FreeBSD. > > > > Nothing additional was broken, and a better fix will eventually be > > created > > Excuse me, ask Kirk. He designed the damn FFS with those reserved fields > for a reason. > Those reserved, unused fields? It makes little difference as to how the problem is fixed, if the problem isn't fixed :-). > > > > (e.g. changed inode structure for ACL support?) > > This is what stacking layers and namespace escapes were invented for. > This is why John's students have been able to implement such VFS stacking > layers (albeit, not in FreeBSD, where layer stacking is broken), but the > architectural principles are surely not that difficult to grasp. > The framework as it is, is super broken, and any fixes to date are only expedient and insufficient. It requires total architecture rewrite if you want reasonable efficiency (not throwing performance away) and coherency. Half solutions need not apply -- if the framework as it was conceived and implemented so far in *BSD was fully implemented, there would either be intractable coherency problems, or probably intolerable efficiency issues. If one stayed in the SYSVr2 API world, the framework as-is would be okay -- however, we are far away from those days. > > I am aware of the ideas being floated to support ACL's in NetBSD; an > implementation that doubles the size of the inode is a bad idea. Take > it from me; I doubled the size of the inode for a commercial FS, so I > well know of that which I speak. > Which slow, commercial OS did you work on? Why do you put words in my mouth about doubling inode size? Straw man... > > > If you think that the ODS needs to be fixed, then fix it!!! :-). If > > it ends up being a solution rather than a hack, then it might just be > > adopted. If the "fix" ends up requiring lots of support from others, > > then the chance of the "idea" being adopted is lessened. > > How could the intended use of the fields, now that they contain non-zero > data instead of zeros, per the backward compatability requirement of the > original design for the Y2038 fix, be anything *but* a hack? The data > is on the disks; the damage is done. > The ODS will need rework before Y2038 anyway. I suspect that if the code is working by 2010, things will be all well. A UFS2 would eventually be a good thing. > > > > But, please don't proclaim an idea as an implementation, and don't > > proclaim a piece of hackery as a "solution." I understand your frustration, > > but because YOUR projects don't get the highest priority doesn't mean > > that you are being ignored. It seems odd to me that some people think > > that others should support their works. > > What about CSRG's project? Those spare fields were intentional, not > accidental. Rail as you might, those fields were coopted, not architected, > away. > Fallacy of appealing to authority? Those fields aren't owned until they are used. The ODS will be changed in the future anyway. It makes little difference as to where the data is. There is room in the inode, if needed. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 15: 6:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E843214F8D for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:06:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA13468; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:03:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199903302303.PAA13468@implode.root.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: unknown@riverstyx.net, dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:07:43 GMT." <199903302207.PAA05079@usr04.primenet.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:03:32 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I really shouldn't get into this, but a couple of points: 1) According to people who should know, John H. did the implementation and integration of the stackable filesystems support in 4.4BSD himself, so if you have a complaint about they way it was done, then blame him and not anyone else. 2) If (1) "works" in BSD/OS (and after hearing what Mike K. has to say, I'm certainly not convinced of this), it's only because they spent a lot of time making it work. 3) There were/are a lot of architectural problems in the LFS code. That it takes 1MB of RAM per mounted filesystem is one of them. Its amusing buffer management mechanisms are another. Margo knows this as well as anyone. LFS was never production quality; it was written as a proof of concept that worked well enough to get some benchmark numbers from and that's about it. The benchmark numbers weren't that great, so there wasn't sufficient interest to put in that last 10% that takes 90% of the time. 4) The use of the spare time field in FFS for sub-second time keeping is consistent with what BSD/OS (and apparantly Solaris and others) have done. Kirk's of the opinion that we'll have to move to larger inodes anyway due to the limitations of [32bit] block pointers, so using the spare field for sub-second time keeping, rather than Y2038, isn't an issue in his opinion. 5) Kirk is ready to see your generalized "soft updates", so get busy. 6) Regarding IPv6: Time has proven that we made the right decision by waiting. It was sufficient motivation to get the various camps to merge their efforts. The merged IPv6 will be brought into FreeBSD as soon as it is ready. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 15:36:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CC5FB14DD7 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:36:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 15130 invoked from network); 30 Mar 1999 23:36:20 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 30 Mar 1999 23:36:20 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA16847; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:36:20 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199903302336.SAA16847@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <199903302207.PAA05079@usr04.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 30, 99 10:07:43 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:36:20 -0500 (EST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Why doesn't FreeBSD FS stacking work? > > > > It never did, and there hasn't been much demand. > > Hey, speak for yourself. I've gone so far as to approach John Heidemann > about rereleasing his code donated to the CSRG under the GPL for a > Linux implementation (yes, I'm deadly serious). > > John's stuff worked before it was damaged into inoperability, and > it currently works fine on BSDI. > With coherency? It sure wasn't coherent (per the original 4.4 code.) > > > > It actually would be worthwhile to totally remove the stacking, or fix > > it with a VM approach. It is totally wrong to use buffer/VP approach, > > but there are those who advocate it (too many people are "bp" heads -- > > bp's are good only for I/O, not object or caching representation.) > > It is wrong to think of vnodes as caching objects instead of backing > objeccts. > I agree with that, but I didn't say anything contrary to that. I do claim that the concept of 'bp' caching is the wrong concept. > > Yes, I know all of the unified VM and buffer cache centric arguments > in favor of this, but the point of having a well defined framework > and API is the ability to share FS code with other OS's. > I agree that the framework should be better defined, once it works. The current framework, if defined, will still not work. The current framework, with all of Terry's fixes that have been proposed to me, will still not work. Many of the important problems are orthogonal to what is being fixed. > > And not all > other OS's have unified VM and buffer caches. > Most OSes (for servers/workstations) competing with FreeBSD that don't have merged caches are missing a major capability. (IMO, are broken.) > > Implemetnation of a > common API must take into account the lowest common denominator, or > you will be creating a FreeBSD specific API that is not generally useful. > My concept can support that, and has been well thought out. However, it is frightening that someone might still stay with the old, broken 'bp' approach that is guaranteed to limit flexibility and capability. A 'bp' is too concrete, but so is a 'vnode' as it is today. Given a choice, I would keep the concept of a 'vnode' though. (At least the notion of a 'vnode' can be abstracted such that the current usage isn't damaging.) > > > FS stacking will not help to gain commercial work, but properly working > > reasonbly sized file I/O does. > > It is (or should be, since the announcement on these lists last week) > well known that Veritas is porting to Linux. > Good for them. > > This code would work in FreeBSD as well, if the Linux and FreeBSD > VFS stacking frameworks were identical API's. > Just don't adopt a broken scheme that doesn't support networked layers. > > Because the API's are not identical (in fact, both are sufficiently > fluid and architecturally damaged as to render them nearly useless), > this work is bound to be another checkmark in the Linux column that > will remain absent from the FreeBSD column. > If I ever get to implement an API, it will be very clean and not limited by the type of scheme that FreeBSD has. > > > > Why was LFS broken, and then not fixed? > > > > It was always broken, and has always been basically a festering mess. > > I think Margo Seltzer would take some issue with this. I would trust > her authority as an FS expert above that of anyone in the core team; > after all, file systems are her life's work. > Don't set up a disgreement between me and her. All it takes is a competent programmer to see that the code is a mess. Maybe some of her ideas are great, but the implementation is pretty messy. It even does copying to build the segments, and is limited by the way it uses the buffer cache :-(. Hack alert. (I have written my share of messy code, so it takes one to know one :-)). A complete reimplementation of what exists, plus an intelligent cleaner would be necessary to bring it up to the quality of FFS. With the work of re-creating it, and implementing a really good cleaner (that might do 'fsck' in background), it would end up being at best, very slightly better than ffs with softupdates. In most areas, there would be no gain. You seem to confuse the fact that an idea isn't an implementation. It is the implementation that I think is inadequate. It doesn't take an expert to see that (and only assume that you haven't looked at or worked on the code because you don't know about all of its problems) the code is "rough." If I had my druthers, I would prefer a journaled filesystem, and leave softupdates for most of the applications that a LFS would be useful for. > > > It is totally wrong to implement a bp > > based LFS anyway, note the hacks in vfs_bio to support that travesty. > > With respect, these are historical artifacts that also applied to > the FFS of the same code vintage, and which predate the unification > of the VM and buffer cache code. This is a case of failure to cross > "T"'s and dot "I"'s during the VM and buffer cache unification wherein > the equivalent FFS issues *were* addressed. Code does not mutate. If > code stops working, it is a failure in maintenance, not a failure of > the code (presuming it worked beforehand -- and LFS did; it merely > lacked a cleaner process to deal with issue like garbage collection > and fragmentations -- issues addressed in later versions of Margo's code). > I kept the code somewhat compatible with the original vfs_bio for the reason that there is a chance to grab technology from other versions of *BSD. For example, if I would have made a 100% break, the chance of applying other *BSD softupdates would have been much smaller. There were some subtile incompatbilities, but much of it seemed to be the fact that FreeBSD doesn't need 'bp's for caching. (People kept on forgetting the fact that FreeBSD logically, FreeBSD doesn't need 'bp's to support caching -- they are for I/O.) Converting FFS would take me a few hours (okay, a couple of days.) > > > > Which version? and please PR it. I have *never* seen it in person recently, > > and locally hacked kernels can cause unexpected brokenness. The problem > > of modified programs has been fixed a long time ago. Also, it has taken > > awhile to find someone competent to work on the VM/VFS code. There > > is a possibility now, but most of the people with the "balls" to work > > on the code with commit frenzies, are often not careful enough to do so. > > I believe Matt has much of this in hand. > Actually certain others seem to really understand the code. The most recent problem was only a few days ago, and just running silly benchmarks would have caught that problem. > > I had to fincd explicity > demonstration cases for the people who didn't feel like bothering to > try to follow my theoretical arguments, and refused to work from > anything but concrete examples. > Your 'theoretical' arguments are wrong often enough to make them "unuseful." It is like the boy who cried 'wolf': sometimes people just cannot accept the statements without verification. > > > > Alot of work is done privately. Research != papers, there is NO advantage > > for a FreeBSD team member to give away the mechanisms for FreeBSD's behavior. > > Malarkey. What do you care if the software running the ATM machine and > using the correct algorithm is FreeBSD, or some other software using > the correct algorithm? The point of the exercise is to increase overall > correctness in the world. > The point of the exercise is to improve FreeBSD, and not damage it. Things that seem to be partially understood can be exposed. There are things that are just not in the interest of FreeBSD to give away. > > Obscurity hurts everyone. The obscurity of the VM algorithms (not to > pick favorites, but the VM system is one place where complexity was > allowed to grow in FreeBSD unshackled by the "we must understand this > if you do" mentality) was, in fact, damaging to Matt's ability to > contribute. > Matt's ability to contribute was damaged by his inablility to listen. If the tools available aren't used, but are made available, and mistakes are being made, then the problem is with the contributor. There are things about the VM code that aren't written down, but the info is available. There are bits and pieces that I won't give away, but nothing to do with the FreeBSD code itself. John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 15:48:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D69A314CEA for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:48:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id BAA06571 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 01:48:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10S7KN-000WycC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:49:47 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Date: 31 Mar 1999 00:49:44 +0200 Message-ID: <7drke8$lmn$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <7dml0r$v3b$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <19990329081904.A57680@paert.tse-online.de> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andreas Braukmann wrote: > Hmmm. I ordered 25 of them and got them a few days ago. > I found several 'Daemon Badge'-Packs in the online-catalogue's > 'daemon badges' category: > http://www.net800.co.uk/netstart/scotgold/cgi-bin/search.pl Oh, there they are. Thanks. Now, how do I order?... Shopping basket remains empty... Oh, I see, a shopping system that requires cookies. (And it doesn't even say so. Talk about slapping your customers in the face.) I don't buy from these as a rule, but I guess there's no alternative supplier here. Okay, now the NetBanx hurdle has stopped me for good. "Cardholder's Postcode"? "Issue number (Switch only)"? Where can I find these on my credit card? Can't remember ever having been asked for anything but issuing company, holder's name, card number, and expiration date. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de See another pointless homepage at . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 16: 0:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from trickster.net (trickster.net [199.1.13.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB77514CFD for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:00:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from travis@trickster.net) Received: from [206.175.107.193] (hil-qbu-pto-vty65.as.wcom.net [206.175.107.193]) by trickster.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id SAA00458; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:59:47 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903302359.SAA00458@trickster.net> Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:16:28 -0500 x-sender: travis@wildebeest.trickster.net x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v3, January 22, 1998 From: Travis Ruthenburg To: "Christian Weisgerber" , Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 3/30/99 5:49 PM, Christian Weisgerber (naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) uttered: >rule, but I guess there's no alternative supplier here. The FreeBSD Mall sells "aluminized" plate logos for $1 a piece. Although, their site might use cookies too. Travis Ruthenburg bjork bjork bjork travis@trickster.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 16:43:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19EEA14D22 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 16:43:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-140.thuntek.net [207.66.52.140]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id RAA15178; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:42:46 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <37016EED.3901DF05@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:40:13 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Why no FreeBSD coffee mugs? References: <199903301907.MAA18598@usr06.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > Walnut Creek used to sell FreeBSD mugs two years ago but stopped because > > the high ratio of broken ones during shipping. I ordered 14 for a few > > friends and I at that time and 6 were broken... > > > > WC changed them and I can understand them stopping selling 'em. > > > > I show mine at work whenever possible :-) > > In the book "A complaint is a gift", a similar example is given in > two different locations. > > Rather than not shipping product, the companies involved changed > their packaging system used for shipping thier products. > > Amazingly enough, these companies are both thriving today; if I > remember correctly, it has something to do with being able to > get goods to customers intact. > Bob just told me they're meeting with people about getting better mugs made. Sounds like they're going to be _really_ snazzy! (and, no, I'm NOT going to tell you the secret!) :-) -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 17:27:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2265D14BF9 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:27:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id KAA04659; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:27:09 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37017982.3B1C15BD@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:25:22 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [Fwd: USEFUL WORK PHRASES] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have noticed the level of insults is increasing greatly on the various freebsd lists. However, the quantitative increase is not being followed by a qualitative increase, making the various flamewars increasingly boring. With that in mind, here is something to help us all express our true feeling to each other in a more interesting way. :-) ===================== **USEFUL WORK PHRASES Submitted by iVillager Kathleen W. 1. Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view. 2. The fact that no one understands you doesn't mean you're an artist. 3. I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce. 4. Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental. 5. I have plenty of talent and vision. I just don't care. 6. I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid. 7. What am I? Flypaper for freaks!? 8. I'm not being rude. You're just insignificant. 9. I'm already visualizing the duct tape over your mouth. 10. I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you. 11. It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off. 12. Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial. 13. No, my powers can only be used for good. 14. How about never? Is never good for you? 15. I'm really easy to get along with once you people learn to worship me. 16. You sound reasonable...Time to up my medication. 17. I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter. 18. I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message... 19. I don't work here. I'm a consultant. 20. Who me? I just wander from room to room. 21. My toys! My toys! I can't do this job without my toys! 22. It might look like I'm doing nothing, but at the cellular level I'm really quite busy. 23. At least I have a positive attitude about my destructive habits. 24. You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers. 25. I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public. 26. Someday, we'll look back on this, laugh nervously and change the subject. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 17:53:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9ECC615565 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 17:53:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-15-14.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.15.14]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id TAA23899; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:53:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA42075; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:53:31 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199903310153.TAA42075@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Terry Lambert Cc: jlemon@americantv.com (Jonathan Lemon), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: http://www.peterzale.com/377.html In-reply-to: Message from Terry Lambert of "Tue, 30 Mar 1999 18:56:44 GMT." <199903301856.LAA17612@usr06.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 19:53:31 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes: > > Probably it's more proper to say they "were an engineering battalion > in the Korean war". > > I picked the Korean war due to the reference to "VC Gunner"; I guess > "VC" could be a Vietnam reference, but I'm pretty sure the 76th din't > have any Viet Cong soldiers officially attached to them. But, but, but, the riddle says its a test of one's knowledge of *internet* history. Korean and Vietnam wars pre-dated the internet. "This 76th VC gunner had two kills enroute to a takeover." VC = VisiCalc? VC = Virtual Computer? is there an online game that might be refered to as VC? takeover? Corporate? VC == Venture Capital! Corporate Takeovers! Who would be the 76th venture capital takeover artist who would have picked up two extra on the way to close a deal? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 20:31: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91A1015A63 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:31:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id GAA24793 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:30:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10SA4V-000WycC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Wed, 31 Mar 1999 03:45:35 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Date: 31 Mar 1999 03:45:32 +0200 Message-ID: <7druns$ngs$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <199903302359.SAA00458@trickster.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Travis Ruthenburg wrote: > The FreeBSD Mall sells "aluminized" plate logos > for $1 a piece. However, at least according to the picture there, those explicitly say "FreeBSD". I'm looking for generic BSD ones. Actually, I just got mail from Chris Engel at ScotGold, so I hope we'll be able to make this E-commerce issue work out. :-) -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de See another pointless homepage at . To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 20:57: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EEF414D96; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 20:56:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA05025; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:26:35 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA56908; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:26:34 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990331142633.O413@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:26:33 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Benson Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <37019498.D4EF2AB8@uswest.net> <000201be7b31$8f0d9ac0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <000201be7b31$8f0d9ac0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob>; from Brad Benson on Tue, Mar 30, 1999 at 11:47:19PM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [following up to -chat] On Tuesday, 30 March 1999 at 23:47:19 -0500, Brad Benson wrote: >> >> That aside, the key feature of Outlook is the remarkable ability to >> both piss people off with HTML e-mails while being infected with >> prank-viruses like Melissa and Happy99. Those Micro$oft folk are >> geniuses, aren't they? > > First I have to say that I'm not a fan of Microsoft in any way. I also have > to admit that I use Outlook98. Yes there can be some extremely annoying > problems with HTML mail and such, but users with a little knowledge can > easily disable such features. As far as handling large amount of email goes, > I couldn't survive without the auto sorting features built into outlook. As > far as prank-viruses go, almost any windows mail program can be dangerous if > you don't pay attention to the attachments that come in your mail. I think > it should be said that most people should think about what could be in an > attachment they weren't expecting. OK, I think we can agree that any Microsoft mailer can fall prey to worms such as Melissa, and that most problems with Outlook are due to incorrect configuration. On the other hand, it seems that Outlook encourages incorrect configuration. I also think that some of its "features" are brain-damaged. For more details, take a look at http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html. In particular, if you can tell me how to stop Outlook from mutilating quoted text from previous messages, I'll be grateful (and put the explanation on the web page). What I mean is: how do you get Outlook not to mutilate the following text when replying? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That aside, the key feature of Outlook is the remarkable ability to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both piss people off with HTML e-mails while being infected with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prank-viruses like Melissa and Happy99. Those Micro$oft folk are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> geniuses, aren't they? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 21:20: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B9C414E23 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:19:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@y.dyson.net) Received: (qmail 4802 invoked from network); 31 Mar 1999 05:19:38 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (HELO y.dyson.net) (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 31 Mar 1999 05:19:38 -0000 Received: (from toor@localhost) by y.dyson.net (8.9.3/8.9.1) id AAA01061; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:19:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903310519.AAA01061@y.dyson.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD is running out of time In-Reply-To: from Jonathan Chen at "Mar 31, 99 09:10:37 am" To: jonc@pinnacle.co.nz (Jonathan Chen) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:19:36 -0500 (EST) Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: "John S. Dyson" Reply-To: dyson@iquest.net X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathan Chen said: > > Will/Should the solution be backward-compatible with all the > FreeBSD FFS already created out there? > > Will we still be using FFS? > Two good questions, and lead to the position that I am taking. A difference of a year or two for the solution is probably not that big a deal. It would be a good thing to structurally update FFS and add nice features (like placement policy and finer grained consistancy control.) The indirect block (mis?)feature (good for the past, but maybe not for the future) is another thing to look at. I am not suggesting that a new filesystem is needed today, but it will be needed (or valuable) someday soon. There is alot of experience on filesystem usage, and I suspect that some improvements could be valuable. What is the threshold for the cost/benefit, and are we close to it? (I don't really know -- this is rhetorical.) -- John | Never try to teach a pig to sing, dyson@iquest.net | it makes one look stupid jdyson@nc.com | and it irritates the pig. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 21:22:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from charleston.softhome.net (charleston.SoftHome.net [204.144.231.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9FBAE14E23 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:22:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bradley@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 22836 invoked by uid 417); 31 Mar 1999 05:43:28 -0000 Received: from max2-ppp-38.cyberix.com (HELO BillyJoeBob) (207.8.199.102) by smtp.softhome.net with SMTP; 31 Mar 1999 05:43:28 -0000 From: "Brad Benson" To: Subject: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:21:15 -0500 Message-ID: <000701be7b36$4cc9da20$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 X-Mimeole: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -----Original Message----- From: Brad Benson [mailto:bradley@softhome.net] Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 1999 12:16 AM To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) > OK, I think we can agree that any Microsoft mailer can fall prey to > worms such as Melissa, and that most problems with Outlook are due to > incorrect configuration. On the other hand, it seems that Outlook > encourages incorrect configuration. I also think that some of its > "features" are brain-damaged. For more details, take a look at > http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html. In particular, if you > can tell me how to stop Outlook from mutilating quoted text from > previous messages, I'll be grateful (and put the explanation on the > web page). What I mean is: how do you get Outlook not to mutilate the > following text when replying? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That aside, the key feature of Outlook is the remarkable ability to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both piss people off with HTML e-mails while being infected with > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prank-viruses like Melissa and Happy99. Those Micro$oft folk are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> geniuses, aren't they? > > Greg sorry, I sent this to advocacy instead of chat by accident. I didn't pay attention to the move. Like I've said, I'm not a Microsoft fan. One of the biggest reasons for this is that they will try to bend everything to there way. They've changed the standards to everything they've touched. Look at PPP and IE-HTML for examples. The only thing I can say about the wrapping problem is that by default Outlook will insert a new line every 76 characters. This option can be set to what ever you want. If you were to set it to 100 characters it wouldn't mess up the line, but the writer would have to remember to hit enter every 70 or so characters so that the mail could be read on none windows machines. I've tried this here to see if it works. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 21:27:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD471512B for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:27:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id OAA05139; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:57:19 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id OAA87746; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:57:18 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990331145717.Q413@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:57:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brad Benson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000701be7b36$4cc9da20$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <000701be7b36$4cc9da20$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob>; from Brad Benson on Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 12:21:15AM -0500 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 31 March 1999 at 0:21:15 -0500, Brad Benson wrote: > On Wednesday, March 31, 1999 12:16 AM, Brad Benson wrote: > >> OK, I think we can agree that any Microsoft mailer can fall prey to >> worms such as Melissa, and that most problems with Outlook are due to >> incorrect configuration. On the other hand, it seems that Outlook >> encourages incorrect configuration. I also think that some of its >> "features" are brain-damaged. For more details, take a look at >> http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html. In particular, if you >> can tell me how to stop Outlook from mutilating quoted text from >> previous messages, I'll be grateful (and put the explanation on the >> web page). What I mean is: how do you get Outlook not to mutilate the >> following text when replying? >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That aside, the key feature of Outlook is the remarkable ability to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both piss people off with HTML e-mails while being infected with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prank-viruses like Melissa and Happy99. Those Micro$oft folk are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> geniuses, aren't they? >> >> Greg > > sorry, I sent this to advocacy instead of chat by accident. > I didn't pay attention to the move. You just needed to do a group reply :-) > Like I've said, I'm not a Microsoft fan. One of the biggest reasons > for this is that they will try to bend everything to there way. > They've changed the standards to everything they've touched. Look > at PPP and IE-HTML for examples. > > The only thing I can say about the wrapping problem is that by > default Outlook will insert a new line every 76 characters. This > option can be set to what ever you want. If you were to set it to > 100 characters it wouldn't mess up the line, but the writer would > have to remember to hit enter every 70 or so characters so that the > mail could be read on none windows machines. I've tried this here > to see if it works. Sure, that works, but it's a workaround, and a barely acceptable one at that. I've been corresponding with users of Microsoft platform mailers (there, Terry!), and they continually run into trouble because they're used to autowrap. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 21:47: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from charleston.softhome.net (charleston.SoftHome.net [204.144.231.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8292814E8F for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 21:47:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bradley@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 32427 invoked by uid 417); 31 Mar 1999 06:07:50 -0000 Received: from max2-ppp-27.cyberix.com (HELO BillyJoeBob) (207.8.199.91) by smtp.softhome.net with SMTP; 31 Mar 1999 06:07:50 -0000 From: "Brad Benson" To: "Greg Lehey" Cc: Subject: RE: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 00:45:37 -0500 Message-ID: <000001be7b39$b40c2640$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <19990331145717.Q413@lemis.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Sure, that works, but it's a workaround, and a barely acceptable one > at that. I've been corresponding with users of Microsoft platform > mailers (there, Terry!), and they continually run into trouble because > they're used to autowrap. > > Greg > -- I'm constantly moving between various UNIX, FreeBSD, and Microsoft machines and have become used to the work arounds involved. I would hope that most people on these list could handle some basic work arounds. after all Work arounds are a way of life in the computer world unfortunately. I know there are problems with the Netscape mail program, but are they only on the Windows version? Are these problems present in most GUI based mailers? Mac, X-Windows, and such. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Mar 30 22:25:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 105E915510 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:25:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id WAA29086; Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:25:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 30 Mar 1999 22:25:00 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: April San Francisco BAFUG Meeting Message-ID: <19990330222500.A29048@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- San Francisco BAFUG -- The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, April 8th. This months meeting will be held at The Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> Bob Bruce, Owner of Walnut Creek CDROM, will give a talk on the relationship between Walnut Creek and FreeBSD. Walnut Creek CDROM has been our biggest booster over the years. Aside from pressing all our CDs since Rel. 1.0 and paying for all the computer and network infrastructure we use, they have under written a large part of the cost of development of FreeBSD including paying several key developers salary. He will share his vision of the future of FreeBSD and Walnut Creek. ==> Josef Grosch will talk about BAFUGs plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on April 10th at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Oakland Convention Center. This Install-A-Thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux). We will also be holding our traditional Install-A-Thon at the Cow Place in Daly City. The date for this show is April 24th. See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> Thanks for all the donations of hardware to build BAFUG display & demo machine for use at the Install-a-thons. A big thinks to Whistle Communications for providing us with a very long time loan of a Whistle Interjet for us to use as an FTP server at our Install-A-Thons. Whistle Communications can be found at www.whistle.com ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the tab will be picked up by Walnut Creek CDROM. Thanks guys! ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at The Reef in San Francisco. The Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By Muni: Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights stop nearby. By BART: Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, on the right (south) side. By Car: From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Street. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.reef.com http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before April 8th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 2:20:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.promo.de (mail.Promo.DE [194.45.188.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 870AF1543F for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 02:20:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stefan@promo.de) Received: from d225.promo.de (d225.Promo.DE [194.45.188.225]) by mail.promo.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01523 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:20:08 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:20:07 +0200 From: Stefan Bethke To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Welcome to Berkeley California song Message-ID: <56571.3131871607@d225.promo.de> Originator-Info: login-id=stefan; server=mail X-Mailer: Mulberry (MacOS) [1.4.2, s/n U-301178] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.pressanykey.com/humor/berkeleysong.html :-) -- Stefan Bethke Promo Datentechnik | Tel. +49-40-851744-18 + Systemberatung GmbH | Fax. +49-40-851744-44 Eduardstrasse 46-48 | e-mail: stefan@Promo.DE D-20257 Hamburg | http://www.Promo.DE/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 6:49:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6736E14E8C for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 06:49:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r9.bfm.org [208.18.213.105]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id JAA18329; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:47:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990331084816.009099f0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 08:48:16 -0600 To: Greg Lehey , Brad Benson From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <19990331142633.O413@lemis.com> References: <000201be7b31$8f0d9ac0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <37019498.D4EF2AB8@uswest.net> <000201be7b31$8f0d9ac0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 14:26 31-03-1999 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That aside, the key feature of Outlook is the remarkable ability to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both piss people off with HTML e-mails while being infected with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prank-viruses like Melissa and Happy99. Those Micro$oft folk are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> geniuses, aren't they? It has its positive side, too. I used the occasion to place an "editorial" on my home page explaining that my system was not and will not be infected by Melissa because it runs on FreeBSD. I then suggested to my callers that if they are concerned about computer safety they, too, should switch to FreeBSD. Just seizing the day. :-) On a related topic: I read on wired news that Melissa originated at Technical University in Bratislava, my home town. I studied at that school decades ago! I'm not sure if I should be proud or ashamend. :-) Adam ===> Whiz Kid Technomagic <=== http://www.whizkidtech.net/ The resource center for webmasters and web users Winner of the Starting Point Hot Site award Winner of the Lighthouse Award Home of the Web Magic Award To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 7:14: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com (unknown [206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4073E15C09 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:13:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA14912 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:14:35 -0500 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma014904; Wed, 31 Mar 99 15:14:30 GMT Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA11292 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:13:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA87889; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:13:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:13:29 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903311513.KAA87889@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD tshirts and fatbrain.com X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just a note for people thinking about getting FreeBSD t-shirts: fatbrain.com (formerly computerliteracy.com) has a $15 rebate (enter the code FATBRAIN) on any purchase. And they also have FreeBSD t-shirts and polo-shirts on sale. :-) Not to mention Greg Lehey's FreeBSD book. Viren -- Viren R. Shah viren @ rstcorp . com "The amount of common sense is fixed, but the population keeps going up" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 7:59:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from geek.grf.ov.com (geek.grf.ov.com [192.251.86.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D741545B for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 07:59:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from pebbles (pebbles.cam.veritas.com [166.98.49.16]) by geek.grf.ov.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id KAA27202; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:59:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199903311559.KAA27202@geek.grf.ov.com> X-Sender: ksmm@mail.cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 10:58:53 -0500 To: "John S. Dyson" , tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: FreeBSD is running out of time Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903302303.SAA16794@dyson.iquest.net> References: <199903302218.PAA06239@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not pretending to understand all of the issues, but won't this be rendered moot on a 64-bit architecture? Do we still expect people to be running 32-bit FreeBSD in 40 years? (Yeah, yeah, I know...did we expect to be running COBOL on mainframes in 2000?) On that note, does FreeBSD have any timetables in place for moving to 64-bit and/or dropping 32-bit? K.S. At 06:03 PM 3/30/99 , John S. Dyson wrote: >> > > Well, as long as we are beating dead horses here... >> > > >> > > IMO, it is *silly* that FreeBSD coopted the fields in FFS that were >> > > reserved for dealing with the Y2038 "bug", which technically didn't >> > > exist in BSD 4.4 until these fields were coopted. >> > > >> > > But then, who am I to look 39 years into the future, instead of only >> > > 6 months ahead, like everyone else. >> > >> > Since the *fix* wasn't implemented, then the fix wasn't broken. >> >> Since the "fix" contradicted a clear architectural direction set by CSRG >> with clear foresight of the Y2038 problem, it violated the architectural >> principles which resulted in the field reservation. >> >That begs the issue that nothing was broken, because the fields >weren't used. The fix didn't exist at all in FreeBSD. > >> >> >> > Nothing additional was broken, and a better fix will eventually be >> > created >> >> Excuse me, ask Kirk. He designed the damn FFS with those reserved fields >> for a reason. >> >Those reserved, unused fields? It makes little difference as to how the >problem is fixed, if the problem isn't fixed :-). > >> >> >> > (e.g. changed inode structure for ACL support?) >> >> This is what stacking layers and namespace escapes were invented for. >> This is why John's students have been able to implement such VFS stacking >> layers (albeit, not in FreeBSD, where layer stacking is broken), but the >> architectural principles are surely not that difficult to grasp. >> >The framework as it is, is super broken, and any fixes to date are >only expedient and insufficient. It requires total architecture >rewrite if you want reasonable efficiency (not throwing performance >away) and coherency. Half solutions need not apply -- if the framework >as it was conceived and implemented so far in *BSD was fully implemented, >there would either be intractable coherency problems, or probably >intolerable efficiency issues. If one stayed in the SYSVr2 API world, >the framework as-is would be okay -- however, we are far away from those >days. > >> >> I am aware of the ideas being floated to support ACL's in NetBSD; an >> implementation that doubles the size of the inode is a bad idea. Take >> it from me; I doubled the size of the inode for a commercial FS, so I >> well know of that which I speak. >> >Which slow, commercial OS did you work on? Why do you put words in my >mouth about doubling inode size? Straw man... > >> >> > If you think that the ODS needs to be fixed, then fix it!!! :-). If >> > it ends up being a solution rather than a hack, then it might just be >> > adopted. If the "fix" ends up requiring lots of support from others, >> > then the chance of the "idea" being adopted is lessened. >> >> How could the intended use of the fields, now that they contain non-zero >> data instead of zeros, per the backward compatability requirement of the >> original design for the Y2038 fix, be anything *but* a hack? The data >> is on the disks; the damage is done. >> >The ODS will need rework before Y2038 anyway. I suspect that if the code >is working by 2010, things will be all well. A UFS2 would eventually be a >good thing. > >> >> >> > But, please don't proclaim an idea as an implementation, and don't >> > proclaim a piece of hackery as a "solution." I understand your frustration, >> > but because YOUR projects don't get the highest priority doesn't mean >> > that you are being ignored. It seems odd to me that some people think >> > that others should support their works. >> >> What about CSRG's project? Those spare fields were intentional, not >> accidental. Rail as you might, those fields were coopted, not architected, >> away. >> >Fallacy of appealing to authority? Those fields aren't owned until they are >used. The ODS will be changed in the future anyway. It makes little difference >as to where the data is. There is room in the inode, if needed. > >You are making a mountain out of a molehill. > >John > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 9:19:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (mail0.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A5EB14D39 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:19:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-216-76-138-94.atl.bellsouth.net [216.76.138.94]) by mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA09158; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:18:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA01887; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:18:58 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: Matthew.Alton@anheuser-busch.com Cc: DLADM@anheuser-busch.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: AIX going BSD In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 31 Mar 1999 09:54:24 -0600" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990331121857B.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 12:18:57 -0500 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 24 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [to -chat] From: "Alton, Matthew" > This lends credence to my lond-held hypothesis that all > commercial UNICES are secretly floating on 4.4BSD UNIX - > The OS that God runs on his PDP/11 up in Heaven. No > wonder they won't free up their source code. It'd be too > embarassing. > No. God runs FreeBSD on an Alpha. :-) BTW: Can you arrange for some free samples of your company's products? Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 13:42:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 376ED14C25; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 13:42:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA25147; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:52:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd025093; Wed Mar 31 15:52:19 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA21836; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:41:59 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903312141.OAA21836@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:41:58 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dyson@iquest.net, hamellr@dsinw.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903302303.SAA16794@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Mar 30, 99 06:03:10 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Since the "fix" contradicted a clear architectural direction set by CSRG > > with clear foresight of the Y2038 problem, it violated the architectural > > principles which resulted in the field reservation. > > That begs the issue that nothing was broken, because the fields > weren't used. The fix didn't exist at all in FreeBSD. ??? The disk had the correct data on it. The only bug was that it wouldn't be updated until the OS went to an int64_t for time_t. > > Excuse me, ask Kirk. He designed the damn FFS with those reserved fields > > for a reason. > > Those reserved, unused fields? It makes little difference as to how the > problem is fixed, if the problem isn't fixed :-). Ugh. Now you're just trying to get my goat. > > > (e.g. changed inode structure for ACL support?) > > > > This is what stacking layers and namespace escapes were invented for. > > This is why John's students have been able to implement such VFS stacking > > layers (albeit, not in FreeBSD, where layer stacking is broken), but the > > architectural principles are surely not that difficult to grasp. > > The framework as it is, is super broken, and any fixes to date are > only expedient and insufficient. And or "too complicated to swallow in a small amount of time without fully understanding the problem". > It requires total architecture > rewrite if you want reasonable efficiency (not throwing performance > away) and coherency. Half solutions need not apply -- if the framework > as it was conceived and implemented so far in *BSD was fully implemented, > there would either be intractable coherency problems, or probably > intolerable efficiency issues. Any putative efficiency penalties (granting their existance for the sake of discussion) would be paid only by the stacking layers themselves, and as it currently doesn't work, you aren't going to be paying an efficiency penalty for anything you currently use. So efficiency is a NULL argument. The coherency and efficiency issues which do exist are related to object coherency between layers for very special cases, such as your and Matt's MFS design. I think the intentional intorduction of VM alias objects, given the year or more that FreeBSD has struggled with the *unintentional* introduction of aliases, and the problems that result from such things existing (file corruption, page alises, page not present errors when an alias is used to reap a page in a low memory situation, etc.) are sufficiently negative that it is *worth* the inefficiency in this special case. At the very least, it's no less performant than what exists today. IF VM alias objects are to be introduced (and that's a big mother "if", in my opinion), it should only be done *after* it is proven, using formal analysis methods, that unintentional aliases have been rendered impossible. I think that trying to track an unintentional alias problem would be, frankly, damn near impossible, if there were no way to distinguish an unintentional one from an intentional one. The only way I see clear for this to happen is if they don't both exist in the code at the same time. As an aside, the MFS issues you and Matt are hung up on, and which seem to be the driving force behind the object alias design, could be adequately addressed by creating a device that uses anonymous kernel memory in place of anonymous swap, and putting the FS on that device instead. > If one stayed in the SYSVr2 API world, > the framework as-is would be okay -- however, we are far away from those > days. The framework as-is is inadequate. At best, it kind-of works for some limited cases that people are too afraid to do anything which might preterb them for the situation to get any better. At worst, it fails to match the design document from which it was instanced, and therefore fails any reasonability test. You can't get somewhere using a map in hand unless you know where on the map you are starting. > > I am aware of the ideas being floated to support ACL's in NetBSD; an > > implementation that doubles the size of the inode is a bad idea. Take > > it from me; I doubled the size of the inode for a commercial FS, so I > > well know of that which I speak. > > Which slow, commercial OS did you work on? SVR4 ES/MP. I also did kernel work in SunOS, AIX, and Solaris as part of a number of products. > Why do you put words in my mouth about doubling inode size? Straw man... You are mentioning ACL's. The most current FS ACL work is being done in NetBSD (not FreeBSD). I thought you were referencing a modern research project when you referenced ACL's. My mistake. > > How could the intended use of the fields, now that they contain non-zero > > data instead of zeros, per the backward compatability requirement of the > > original design for the Y2038 fix, be anything *but* a hack? The data > > is on the disks; the damage is done. > > The ODS will need rework before Y2038 anyway. I suspect that if the code > is working by 2010, things will be all well. A UFS2 would eventually be a > good thing. Fie. You are the one who originally posted about seeing years of work frittered away. I am not prepared to repeat that journey; it is a fool's quest. > > > But, please don't proclaim an idea as an implementation, and don't > > > proclaim a piece of hackery as a "solution." I understand your > > > frustration, but because YOUR projects don't get the highest > > > priority doesn't mean that you are being ignored. It seems odd > > > to me that some people think that others should support their works. > > > > What about CSRG's project? Those spare fields were intentional, not > > accidental. Rail as you might, those fields were coopted, not architected, > > away. > > Fallacy of appealing to authority? Fallacy of implied ownership of an issue, merely because I raised it in this forum instead of the original authors of the issue? > Those fields aren't owned until they are used. Those fields were used. That's why they were marked "reserved", not "spare"; an intentional semantic distinction. Do not confuse a field as unused merely because all current instances of the field are zero-valued. By that argument, I could claim that all values that are currently less than Log2 50% of their maximum magnitude are twice as large as they need to be, and those bits are "spare" for me to use. There is a difference between "range" and "allowed range". > The ODS will be changed in the future anyway. It makes little > difference as to where the data is. There is room in the inode, if > needed. > > You are making a mountain out of a molehill. I think you need to go byte counting in the inode structure looking for the room you claim is there. Without modifying the inode into incompatability with existing FS's, it's just not there. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 14:24:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BFA414C26 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:24:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA08995; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:53:56 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id HAA89437; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:53:54 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990401075354.E413@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:53:54 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Brad Benson Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000201be7b31$8f0d9ac0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <37019498.D4EF2AB8@uswest.net> <000201be7b31$8f0d9ac0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <19990331142633.O413@lemis.com> <3.0.6.32.19990331084816.009099f0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990331084816.009099f0@mail.bfm.org>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 08:48:16AM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Format recovered--see http://www.lemis.com/email/email-format.html] On Wednesday, 31 March 1999 at 8:48:16 -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > At 14:26 31-03-1999 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That aside, the key feature of Outlook is the remarkable > ability to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both piss people off with HTML e-mails while being > infected with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prank-viruses like Melissa and Happy99. Those Micro$oft > folk are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> geniuses, aren't they? Didn't you mean to quote like this? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That aside, the key feature of Outlook is the remarkable ability to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both piss people off with HTML e-mails while being infected with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> prank-viruses like Melissa and Happy99. Those Micro$oft folk are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> geniuses, aren't they? This is exactly the point I wanted to make. If your mail reader wants to limit the length of the line, it should maintain the quote levels, like this: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That aside, the key feature of Outlook is the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarkable ability to both piss people off with HTML >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> e-mails while being infected with prank-viruses like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Melissa and Happy99. Those Micro$oft folk are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> geniuses, aren't they? That's one keystroke under Emacs; you'd expect a purpose-built mailer to be able to do it too. > It has its positive side, too. I used the occasion to place an "editorial" > on my home page explaining that my system was not and will not be infected > by Melissa because it runs on FreeBSD. Then why does it claim this? X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) I checked all mailboxes on my system, but none seems to have received a Melissa. Anybody else? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 14:24:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19C3C14C26 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 14:24:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA11262; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:24:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd011239; Wed Mar 31 15:24:32 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA24710; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:24:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199903312224.PAA24710@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:24:30 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, dyson@iquest.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199903302303.PAA13468@implode.root.com> from "David Greenman" at Mar 30, 99 03:03:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I really shouldn't get into this, but a couple of points: > > 1) According to people who should know, John H. did the implementation and > integration of the stackable filesystems support in 4.4BSD himself, so if > you have a complaint about they way it was done, then blame him and not > anyone else. The problems were not the stacking layer architecture itself, but the variant nature of the vnode object outside the stacking architecture, and the breakage that resulted from the change in VM model and lock management. There is also the NFS cookie stuff in VOP_LOOKUP, which I believe is traceable to a NetBSD design. If there are two problems with the model itself, as integrated, they the freeing of the pathname buffer in VOP_ABORTOP ("callee frees") and the non-veto nature of certain non-atomic but idempotent operations. These are both *trivial* to fix, and they can be blamed more on the model of hanging lists (e.g. advisory locks) off of FS objects instead of vnodes... a consequence of the environment into which the code was being integrated, not the code itself. One might make an argument for the inability to inherit POSIX namespace escapes down agross pathname component lookups; however, I view this as an artifact of the pathname lookup code that makes the VOP calls, and thus exogenous damage. > 2) If (1) "works" in BSD/OS (and after hearing what Mike K. has to say, I'm > certainly not convinced of this), it's only because they spent a lot of > time making it work. The BSD4.4-Lite2 release aggravated the situation by elevating certain problems. Chief among these are the lockmgr changes, which centralized code, but failed to push the calling interfaces for the code up. Another failure of this code was the reliance on existing instances for the initilization cases. Finally, we can blame this code for the mount model changes being, best case, benign reorganization, and at worst, detrimental to the possibility of a future where device existance is more dynamic than should require a human to intervene in the mount status of a volume. > 3) There were/are a lot of architectural problems in the LFS code. That it > takes 1MB of RAM per mounted filesystem is one of them. Its amusing > buffer management mechanisms are another. Margo knows this as well as > anyone. LFS was never production quality; it was written as a proof of > concept that worked well enough to get some benchmark numbers from and > that's about it. The benchmark numbers weren't that great, so there wasn't > sufficient interest to put in that last 10% that takes 90% of the time. I know this. The problem I have is that the LFS code worked as a proof of concept, and now, due to maintenance failures on the part of the responsible persons making tangential changes, the code no longer functions as a proof of concept. I personally despise the term "bit rot"; code does not mutate, it is only orphaned through improper maintenance. I am fully willing to admit that this might be a character flaw. It's very obvious that FreeBSD is currently poorly able to support a corporate LDAP directory (for example) in a reliable and fault-tolerant way, without resorting to custom hardware soloutions. > 4) The use of the spare time field in FFS for sub-second time keeping is > consistent with what BSD/OS (and apparantly Solaris and others) have done. > Kirk's of the opinion that we'll have to move to larger inodes anyway > due to the limitations of [32bit] block pointers, so using the spare > field for sub-second time keeping, rather than Y2038, isn't an issue in > his opinion. The 32 bit block issue is resolvable, although unprettily, with the addition of another indirect block type and a flag bit. The sub-second time keeping is only really meanful to programs which now depend upon it. This limits the utility to the mtime alone, and there is sufficient spare space that this could have been kept at sub-32 bit precision without taking the reserved fields. If it's true that this was a benign change rather than a short-sighted one, then this begs the question of new FS design. Unfortunately, the brokenenss of the existing stacking does not lend itself to resolving this problem, and it appear likely that this issue will remain unaddressed so long as those capable of addressing it don't/can't do so. > 5) Kirk is ready to see your generalized "soft updates", so get busy. They are on my list. For them to be verified to work, FS stacking must first work. I may also need an indemnification against claims of derivation due to my position at Whistle, my familiarity with Kirk's code, and the commercial license under which it is distributed. It may well be that I have to wait the two years based on the license. To give perspective to this, I have 145 critical technologies on my list. Just one of these is taking me three internet drafts to address adequately (so far), and a possible reformation of the DNSIND working group. > 6) Regarding IPv6: Time has proven that we made the right decision by > waiting. Agreed. > It was sufficient motivation to get the various camps to merge their > efforts. The merged IPv6 will be brought into FreeBSD as soon as it is > ready. The issue is one of migration strategy. There are other areas of research of which remain woefully unexplored. Unfortunately, I don't have as much time as it would take to explore everything which needs to be explored; I should probablly "sell out" for a few years to put myself in Matt's position where he can dedicate 16 hours a day to the problems he sees as most important. Several IPv4/IPv6 migration related issues are obvious, however, so there is no need for a detailed defense of their existance, merely their enumeration: o Link management based on the credentials of the entity creating the link demand for transiently connected (NOT mobile) systems. o Binding of sockets to interfaces instead of addresses, so that deamons don't need to be reconfigured when network configuration is changed. o Trust of interfaces based on physical topology (Obtuse systems addresses this issue, somewhat, though not very publically). o Connection to service rather than to server. This is an important one, as it impinges on server anonymity. I view these areas as "best performed in the context of an IPv6 and with a knowledge of the ``blessed'' IPv4-to-IPv6 migration strategy". This may seem silly; but to put it in context, it was the large scale distribution of BSD4.4 derivatives with TTCP/IP and 1323 which drove routers to support option negotiation. It is the wide scale distribution of a standardized research platform (not merely patches) that will enable these research areas. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 15: 9:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A0014ED9 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:09:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10SU6t-0005jK-0A; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:09:24 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA00395; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:08:54 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id AAA00789; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:05:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:05:55 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Amancio Hasty Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sweet news 8) Message-ID: <19990401000555.D259@marder-1.localhost> References: <199903270307.TAA01299@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199903270307.TAA01299@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:07:56PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Mar 26, 1999 at 07:07:56PM -0800, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > "Major e-mail virus " hits corporate hard . The article reports that in one > company > 60,000 machines were affected . > > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2233030,00.html > Follow some of the Talkback links at the end of the article as well, there's some good ones, like this: "Just proves that Microsoft is not a monopoly. If they were, they would have both made the virus and anit-virus software. Windows users also are more robust than Linux or Unix slaves. And we leave email addresses." -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 15:33:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9E914F96 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:33:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA33527 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:32:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199903312332.PAA33527@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Nato Web's site 8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:32:48 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It appears that Nato's web site is under intense attack like being pounded by 2000 email messages per day.. Its got to be running Windows !! http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2234899,00.html Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 15:54:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat192.236.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.192.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CCB15D79 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 15:54:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA83002 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:54:20 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:54:20 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: A little levity in an ever stressful life... :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.pressanykey.com/humor/berkeleysong.html Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 16:56:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CF0514FC4 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:56:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by mail.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:46:46 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Amancio Hasty" , Subject: RE: Nato Web's site 8) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 16:55:50 -0800 Message-ID: <000001be7bda$62b923a0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <199903312332.PAA33527@rah.star-gate.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It appears that Nato's web site is under intense attack like > being pounded by > 2000 email messages per day.. Its got to be running Windows !! > http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2234899,00.html A web site being pounded by emails? That's, umm, interesting. DS <-- Got the firmware for a 3359A terminal server? I need it badly. --> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 17: 0: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D7F14DB1 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 17:00:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01058; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:29:30 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199903311559.KAA27202@geek.grf.ov.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 10:29:30 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: FreeBSD is running out of time Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, (Terry Lambert) , "John S. Dyson" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 31-Mar-99 The Classiest Man Alive wrote: > Not pretending to understand all of the issues, but won't this be rendered > moot on a 64-bit architecture? Do we still expect people to be running Have a think about it.. The structures on disk are fixed in size regardless of your hardware (how could it be any other way?) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 18:44:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B7D151A3; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:44:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-15-157.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.15.157]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA08441; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:44:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA46321; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:43:49 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199904010243.UAA46321@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: HDD led stops working after FreeBSD...? In-reply-to: Message from Greg Black of "Thu, 01 Apr 1999 06:41:38 +1000." <19990331204139.7697.qmail@alpha.comkey.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:43:49 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If this is to continue it really should be on -chat. Greg Black writes: > > Okay you guys, this is fascinating -- but why do you care about > LEDs on your disks? I haven't had a (visible) LED on a disk for > at least ten years and have never wished I had. Is there some > reason for wanting them? It proves to your PHB (Pointy Haired Bosse) that the machine is working its ass off for him. This impresses PHB's who then go back to their office, order more HD's on their Windows Box, and try to replicate the demo. A 6' rack of StorageTek (Clariion) was delivered for a project. Had 3 bays that would hold 30 disks each. But only 24 disks were delivered. I rearanged those into (4) RAID-5's, (3) hot swaps, and (1) Plain Old Disk. Then under Irix striped the RAID-5's into one 137G FS. Then when VIP's showed up, would launch a big "dd if=/dev/zero of=/file-on-raid" so all 20 HD LED's would be flashing. Everybody always loved the show. Even those who knew how silly it was because they *knew* I was putting on a show. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 18:45: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9614415688 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:45:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-15-157.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.15.157]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA07178; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:44:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA46337; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:44:38 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199904010244.UAA46337@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: Sweet news 8) In-reply-to: Message from Mark Ovens of "Thu, 01 Apr 1999 00:05:55 +0100." <19990401000555.D259@marder-1.localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:44:38 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > Follow some of the Talkback links at the end of the article as > well, there's some good ones, like this: > > "Just proves that Microsoft is not a monopoly. If they were, they > would have both made the virus and anit-virus software. The above needs proper attribution and addition to fortunes. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 18:46:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 727DF151A3 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:46:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-15-157.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.15.157]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA22561; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:46:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA46356; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:46:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199904010246.UAA46356@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat From: David Kelly Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) In-reply-to: Message from Greg Lehey of "Thu, 01 Apr 1999 07:53:54 +0930." <19990401075354.E413@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 20:46:04 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > I checked all mailboxes on my system, but none seems to have received > a Melissa. Anybody else? Not I, but my office mate (recently retired Army, so you *know* his contacts are Microsoft-soaked) said he has recieved 16 copies so far. This weekend my ISP launched a search of their thousands of active mailboxes and claim to have found only 2 copies. But found hundreds or thousands of warnings. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 19:17:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wna1.wna-linknet.com (wna1.wna-linknet.com [208.128.88.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE6D114D25 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:17:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frodo@wna-linknet.com) Received: from brenda (cust138.wna-linknet.com [208.128.88.138]) by wna1.wna-linknet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA18467 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:17:20 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004b01be7bed$8612d7c0$0200000a@wnalinknet.com> From: "Edward Rempala" To: Subject: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:09:47 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org auth 3d24397a subscribe freebsd-chat frodo@wna-linknet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 19:17:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wna1.wna-linknet.com (wna1.wna-linknet.com [208.128.88.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D60241516F for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 19:17:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from frodo@wna-linknet.com) Received: from brenda (cust138.wna-linknet.com [208.128.88.138]) by wna1.wna-linknet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id WAA18470 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:17:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <004c01be7bed$86b929e0$0200000a@wnalinknet.com> From: "Edward Rempala" To: Subject: Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:10:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org auth 3d24397a subscribe freebsd-chat frodo@wna-linknet.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 21:33:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69E8614FBA for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:33:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990401053439.ZHJC5470601.mta2-rme@wocker> for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:34:39 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:33:41 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: User Friendly has been shut down Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990401053439.ZHJC5470601.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.userfriendly.org/ -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 21:44: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6210D14E93 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:44:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA10631; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:13:43 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA91200; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:13:43 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990401151342.V413@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:13:42 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down References: <19990401053439.ZHJC5470601.mta2-rme@wocker> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990401053439.ZHJC5470601.mta2-rme@wocker>; from Dan Langille on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 05:33:41PM +1200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 17:33:41 +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > http://www.userfriendly.org/: > Shut Down Pending Litigation > > User Friendly the Comic Strip has been discontinued indefinitely in > accordance with an injunction secured against the site. Until > litigation has been completed, the content author ('Illiad') has > agreed to cease all operation of the site as advised by legal counsel. > > Further information regarding this litigation will be made available > within the next 72 hours. > > Michael Scott DeWitt > Legal Counsel for userfriendly.org Sheesh. I wonder who that was. Somebody should mirror it way away from the USA. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 21:50:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 411E314CDF for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:50:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA07474; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:49:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:49:55 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Greg Lehey Cc: junkmale@xtra.co.nz, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down Message-ID: <19990331234955.J17547@futuresouth.com> References: <19990401053439.ZHJC5470601.mta2-rme@wocker> <19990401151342.V413@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990401151342.V413@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 03:13:42PM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 03:13:42PM +0930, a little birdie told me that Greg Lehey remarked > > > > User Friendly the Comic Strip has been discontinued indefinitely in > > accordance with an injunction secured against the site. Until > > litigation has been completed, the content author ('Illiad') has > > agreed to cease all operation of the site as advised by legal counsel. > > > > Further information regarding this litigation will be made available > > within the next 72 hours. > > > > Michael Scott DeWitt > > Legal Counsel for userfriendly.org > > Sheesh. I wonder who that was. > > Somebody should mirror it way away from the USA. Indeed. Of course, the part of me which relies on UF for my continued sanity is screaming 'LOOK WHAT DAY IT IS'... --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 21:51: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B02B1516E for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:50:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA05184; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:20:04 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990401151342.V413@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 15:20:04 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, junkmale@xtra.co.nz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Apr-99 Greg Lehey wrote: > Sheesh. I wonder who that was. Microsoft? Intel? Pick your favourite litigious company. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 21:53:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC71A14F93 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 21:53:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990401055442.ZLOY5470601.mta2-rme@wocker>; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:54:42 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:53:44 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990331234955.J17547@futuresouth.com> References: <19990401151342.V413@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 03:13:42PM +0930 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990401055442.ZLOY5470601.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 31 Mar 99, at 23:49, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > Indeed. > Of course, the part of me which relies on UF for my continued sanity is > screaming 'LOOK WHAT DAY IT IS'... I didn't want to mention that one. But it would be good! note the lawyers name. "Michael Scott DeWitt" - a bit funny. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 22: 6:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46E1C15D09 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:06:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from norn@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 8E225165B; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:05:50 -0800 (PST) Content-Length: 919 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990331234955.J17547@futuresouth.com> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:05:50 -0800 (PST) Reply-To: Chris Piazza From: Chris Piazza To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, junkmale@xtra.co.nz, Greg Lehey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Apr-99 Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 03:13:42PM +0930, a little birdie told me > that Greg Lehey remarked >> >> Sheesh. I wonder who that was. >> >> Somebody should mirror it way away from the USA. > > Indeed. > Of course, the part of me which relies on UF for my continued sanity is > screaming 'LOOK WHAT DAY IT IS'... > It's not April 1 where the server is (and I'm quite certain Illiad lives around here (in Vancouver, BC), too). There was something about this a few weeks ago so unless this was an elaborate joke, and Illiad wanted to catch the EST crowd, I don't doubt the validity. Joining #userfriendly on Undernet yields this topic, though: --> [topic(#userfriendly)] "There's evidence either way - don't freak out and make assumptions, please" hmm... ;^) --- Chris Piazza Abbotsford, BC, Canada cpiazza@home.net finger norn@norn.ca.eu.org for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 22:27:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2312615BB4 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:27:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA07144; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:27:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Chuck is cute In-reply-to: Your message of "31 Mar 1999 00:49:44 +0200." <7drke8$lmn$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:27:15 -0800 Message-ID: <7142.922948035@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Now, how do I order?... Shopping basket remains empty... Oh, I see, a > shopping system that requires cookies. (And it doesn't even say so. Talk > about slapping your customers in the face.) I don't buy from these as a > rule, but I guess there's no alternative supplier here. I think this whole paranoia about cookies really goes a bit far. I don't see how a shopping cart aplication can really work reasonably without them, unless Christian here would like to provide us with one which doesn't and yet provides the same functionality. :) - Jordan > > Okay, now the NetBanx hurdle has stopped me for good. > "Cardholder's Postcode"? > "Issue number (Switch only)"? > Where can I find these on my credit card? Can't remember ever having > been asked for anything but issuing company, holder's name, card number, > and expiration date. > > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de > See another pointless homepage at . > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 22:29:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat192.236.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.192.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78207151AF for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:29:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA86202 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:29:19 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:29:19 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.userfriendly.org :( Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 22:31:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 262A3155BC for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:31:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05430; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:01:29 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7142.922948035@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 16:01:28 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, (Christian Weisgerber) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Apr-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I think this whole paranoia about cookies really goes a bit far. I > don't see how a shopping cart aplication can really work reasonably > without them, unless Christian here would like to provide us with one > which doesn't and yet provides the same functionality. :) Well, you can pass a 'cookie' around using CGI, but its a bit clunky, and prone to a replay attack. So gee, which is the lesser of 2 evils? Bring on the cookies! --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 22:47:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iquest3.iquest.net (iquest3.iquest.net [209.43.20.203]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4FF62151AB for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 22:47:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from toor@dyson.iquest.net) Received: (qmail 16961 invoked from network); 1 Apr 1999 06:47:22 -0000 Received: from dyson.iquest.net (198.70.144.127) by iquest3.iquest.net with SMTP; 1 Apr 1999 06:47:22 -0000 Received: (from root@localhost) by dyson.iquest.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id BAA19102; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:47:20 -0500 (EST) From: "John S. Dyson" Message-Id: <199904010647.BAA19102@dyson.iquest.net> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: <199903312141.OAA21836@usr07.primenet.com> from Terry Lambert at "Mar 31, 99 09:41:58 pm" To: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:47:20 -0500 (EST) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dyson@iquest.net, hamellr@dsinw.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL32 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > Excuse me, ask Kirk. He designed the damn FFS with those reserved fields > > > for a reason. > > > > Those reserved, unused fields? It makes little difference as to how the > > problem is fixed, if the problem isn't fixed :-). > > Ugh. Now you're just trying to get my goat. > Not really. > > > > > > This is what stacking layers and namespace escapes were invented for. > > > This is why John's students have been able to implement such VFS stacking > > > layers (albeit, not in FreeBSD, where layer stacking is broken), but the > > > architectural principles are surely not that difficult to grasp. > > > > The framework as it is, is super broken, and any fixes to date are > > only expedient and insufficient. > > And or "too complicated to swallow in a small amount of time without > fully understanding the problem". > I fully understand the problem, and know that the current structure is not the right way to do it. > > > It requires total architecture > > rewrite if you want reasonable efficiency (not throwing performance > > away) and coherency. Half solutions need not apply -- if the framework > > as it was conceived and implemented so far in *BSD was fully implemented, > > there would either be intractable coherency problems, or probably > > intolerable efficiency issues. > > Any putative efficiency penalties (granting their existance for the sake > of discussion) would be paid only by the stacking layers themselves, and > as it currently doesn't work, you aren't going to be paying an efficiency > penalty for anything you currently use. > > > So efficiency is a NULL argument. > It cannot be a NULL argument, because continual polishing the t*rd isn't really solving the problem. > > IF VM alias objects are to be introduced (and that's a big mother "if", > in my opinion), it should only be done *after* it is proven, using > formal analysis methods, that unintentional aliases have been rendered > impossible. > The current VM backing scheme is correct and needs only minor extension. In fact, the VM backing is natural (e.g. copy on write), whilst the current VFS layering doesn't handle the needed semantics for coherency without lots of traversal of the layers. Bottom line, the VM backing already DOES work, or nothing in the system would work. > > The only way I see clear for this to happen is if they don't both > exist in the code at the same time. > Yep, get rid of the unintentional VFS layering bugs, by taking advantage of the already needed VM layering for any kind of reasonable VM behavior. That VM stuff is there anyway, so why muck it up with a parallel, and semantically incorrect (or inefficient) structure? The VM layering already has the needed mechanisms for handling shared (and modified) memory "repositories." By constraining onself to the current VFS layering, it simply complicates the system with two different kinds of layering schemes. Don't forget that sometimes generalization of a problem, simplifies it -- and the VFS scheme is TOO conventionally-file oriented, and not very oriented towards data. The "file" abstraction is too specific. I admit that the VM schemes need to be better documented for those who haven't read the MACH (and the new deamon book) information, but once the underlying principles are understood, it is clear that files are a paradigm that are too focused towards one kind of thinking. Such new documentation would mostly be a repeat of already available materials anyway. As soon as a "file" is abstracted to "memory objects", then things become easier. A memory object can reside anywhere, and have all kinds of inheritance attributes, and interrelations. (A file can also, but the scheme as presented in 4.4BSD VFS doesn't do so -- and to expand the notion of file to what I call "memory objects", changes the current layering code so severely as to make it better to almost start over.) The Heidemann framework is a good document on the needed semantics from a file standpoint, but addresses weakly the issues of the memory objects (be they in memory, on disk, or across a network.) With correct protocols, the "memory object" scheme actually does what the programmer expects. The current VFS layering framework only very weakly handle the issues of the "data containers" or "memory objects" themselves. The non-bidirectional nature of the current layering also forgets the forward movement of OS design. (Of course, if every I/O call or access to memory traverses the entire chain, then the current framework might work.) The memory oriented approaches eliminate (or at least handle) the aliasing and local caching issues correctly. The original 4.4/2 framework was so bad, that even local mmaped objects are only weakly coherent (actually not even that), let alone any other caching in the pipeline. With the memory schemes, the problem solves itself (with only minor consideration for the additional expected file semantics.) It is only the proper implementation of VM coherency that the current code works local to a given vnode. It is only a small VM extension, and definition for use, to make an entire layered scheme work. By reworking the entire VFS layering scheme (still looking somewhat like the current implementation, but properly abstracted) the entire solution (instead of a hack solution) can be made available. Remember, both FILE and MEMORY data needs to be presented to the user, and FILE data is a narrow picture of memory. MEMORY can easily be made more specific by presenting it as a file -- however expanding the semantics of a file to memory is more complex (especially with sharing.) When a conversion to MEMORY from FILE and back again, has to be done at every layer, then a scheme is going to be very inefficient or complex. If the abstraction is kept as memory at each layer, then complexities are lessened. Since each layer might have to present a memory image (either as caching or mmap), then with a file representation, each layer has to do the "hard" conversion (given the anachronisitic file-only abstraction.) There is NO cost in keeping the abstraction as memory as long as possible in the chain. If a conversion is needed at machine boundaries, it might be possible to avoid the file abstraction entirely, and create a (MEMORY <--> SOCKET) protocol directly. (It might not be needed to create and use a more complex (MEMORY <--> NFS <--> SOCKET) thing.) > > > > Why do you put words in my mouth about doubling inode size? Straw man... > > You are mentioning ACL's. The most current FS ACL work is being done > in NetBSD (not FreeBSD). I thought you were referencing a modern > research project when you referenced ACL's. My mistake. > Yep... By assuming what I have been thinking about, it shows that arguments about such might be misguided. > > > > The ODS will need rework before Y2038 anyway. I suspect that if the code > > is working by 2010, things will be all well. A UFS2 would eventually be a > > good thing. > > Fie. You are the one who originally posted about seeing years of work > frittered away. I am not prepared to repeat that journey; it is a fool's > quest. > Fallacious argument -- you aren't the author of the original code or those changes are you? The author of the code apparently accepted the changes. (In fact, the changes were also compatible with other users and developers on the codebase.) > > > The ODS will be changed in the future anyway. It makes little > > difference as to where the data is. There is room in the inode, if > > needed. > > > > You are making a mountain out of a molehill. > > I think you need to go byte counting in the inode structure looking > for the room you claim is there. Without modifying the inode into > incompatability with existing FS's, it's just not there. > I suggest coming up with a solution then. Of course, I suggest that UFS/ODS2 needs to be thought through. By taking micro pot-shots doesn't really solve the problem (or the other problems that needed to be solved in the shorter term.) John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Mar 31 23:33: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40AC615194 for ; Wed, 31 Mar 1999 23:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA10323; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:32:31 +0300 (EEST) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:32:31 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Dan Langille Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down In-Reply-To: <19990401053439.ZHJC5470601.mta2-rme@wocker> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Want to bet it is slander ligitation from MS? Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Dan Langille wrote: > http://www.userfriendly.org/ > > -- > Dan Langille > The FreeBSD Diary > http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 0: 2:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 363BA15CE2 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:02:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA11149; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:02:26 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id RAA91409; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:01:19 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990401170119.A413@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:01:19 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from The Hermit Hacker on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 02:29:19AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 2:29:19 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > http://www.userfriendly.org :( Do you have any evidence that it was Microslop? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 0:16:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (host-e186.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B6F115DA2 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:13:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id DAA70065; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 03:12:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990401031238.A70058@tidalwave.net> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 03:12:38 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: Greg Lehey , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <19990401170119.A413@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990401170119.A413@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 05:01:19PM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE Organization: My room? Are you crazy? :) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 05:01:19PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 2:29:19 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > http://www.userfriendly.org :( > > Do you have any evidence that it was Microslop? Not a soul has said anything. Segfault, User Friendly, and BeDope are all affected by this, and they're all disturbingly mum about it. -lee...then again, this may well be one of the biggest AFJs ever pulled...but we have no proof. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 0:39:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 079A915D69 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:37:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA11603; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:36:30 +0300 (EEST) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:36:30 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: lcremean@tidalwave.net Cc: Greg Lehey , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... In-Reply-To: <19990401031238.A70058@tidalwave.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 05:01:19PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 2:29:19 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > > > http://www.userfriendly.org :( > > > > Do you have any evidence that it was Microslop? > > Not a soul has said anything. Segfault, User Friendly, and BeDope are all > affected by this, and they're all disturbingly mum about it. > > -lee...then again, this may well be one of the biggest AFJs ever > pulled...but we have no proof. > If it is April fools joke, then why shut down all the pages, including the links page? Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. > -- > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | > | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 0:53:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (host-e186.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75AFB14F41 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:53:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id DAA70171; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 03:52:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990401035252.A70137@tidalwave.net> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 03:52:52 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: Narvi Cc: Greg Lehey , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <19990401031238.A70058@tidalwave.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Narvi on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:36:30AM +0300 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE Organization: My room? Are you crazy? :) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:36:30AM +0300, Narvi wrote: > > On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 05:01:19PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 2:29:19 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > > > > > http://www.userfriendly.org :( > > > > > > Do you have any evidence that it was Microslop? > > > > Not a soul has said anything. Segfault, User Friendly, and BeDope are all > > affected by this, and they're all disturbingly mum about it. > > > > -lee...then again, this may well be one of the biggest AFJs ever > > pulled...but we have no proof. > > > > If it is April fools joke, then why shut down all the pages, including the > links page? [DISCLAIMER: I Am Not A Lawyer. Take the legal info in this with the requisite grain of salt.] That's the funny part. On the one hand, it makes it look all the more serious. On the other...it *would* seem a bit much to pull down the entire site, instead of whatever items offended the plaintiffs...in most IP-infringment cases, all you have to do to comply is to pull down whatever material is named in the cease and desist letter, and prove you did it. I don't know about other civil cases, though. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 0:54:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1F1714FFC for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:54:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk) Received: from brian.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.7]; by hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5/S-4.0) with ESMTP; id JAA27220; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:54:17 +0100 (BST) Received: (from scott@localhost) by brian.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id JAA02476; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:54:21 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <19990401095420.J1985@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:54:20 +0100 From: Scott Mitchell To: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Chuck is cute References: <7dml0r$v3b$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <19990329081904.A57680@paert.tse-online.de> <7drke8$lmn$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <7drke8$lmn$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 12:49:44AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Mar 31, 1999 at 12:49:44AM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Andreas Braukmann wrote: > > > Hmmm. I ordered 25 of them and got them a few days ago. > > I found several 'Daemon Badge'-Packs in the online-catalogue's > > 'daemon badges' category: > > http://www.net800.co.uk/netstart/scotgold/cgi-bin/search.pl > > Oh, there they are. Thanks. > > Now, how do I order?... Shopping basket remains empty... Oh, I see, a > shopping system that requires cookies. (And it doesn't even say so. Talk > about slapping your customers in the face.) I don't buy from these as a > rule, but I guess there's no alternative supplier here. > > Okay, now the NetBanx hurdle has stopped me for good. > "Cardholder's Postcode"? > "Issue number (Switch only)"? > Where can I find these on my credit card? Can't remember ever having > been asked for anything but issuing company, holder's name, card number, > and expiration date. Hee hee, UK-centric addresses! Well, it makes a change from always being asked for your 'state' and 'zip code', when you have neither. To answer your question though, the first one should be obvious and you don't need to worry about the other unless you have a Switch card... Scott. -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 0:55: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57C1415D49 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 00:55:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10SdFF-00025E-0K; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:54:38 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA00996; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:54:29 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA02997; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:54:27 +0100 Message-ID: <3703341E.B1EA69E3@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 09:53:50 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Narvi Cc: lcremean@tidalwave.net, Greg Lehey , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Narvi wrote: > > On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 05:01:19PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 2:29:19 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > > > > > http://www.userfriendly.org :( > > > > > > Do you have any evidence that it was Microslop? > > > > Not a soul has said anything. Segfault, User Friendly, and BeDope are all > > affected by this, and they're all disturbingly mum about it. > > > > -lee...then again, this may well be one of the biggest AFJs ever > > pulled...but we have no proof. > > > > If it is April fools joke, then why shut down all the pages, including the > links page? > To make it more convincing? > Sander > > There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - > all these are just illusions. > > > -- > > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > > | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | > > | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 1: 0:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CFDB14FFC for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:00:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00237 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:00:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199904010900.BAA00237@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:00:00 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: BayAreaFreeBSDJobs.txt,v 1.4 1999/03/19 16:25:54 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 1: 0:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FEFD15D06 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:00:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00272 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:00:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199904010900.BAA00272@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area Install-A-Thon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:00:09 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Install-A-Thon BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) will hold it's monthly Install-A-Thon in conjunction with the Robert Austin computer show on April 10th at the Oakland Convention Center and Cow Palace in Daly City on April 24th. The purpose of these Install-A-Thons is for new and experienced user to meet and solve problem they are having with FreeBSD. It is also a time to promote FreeBSD to potential users. The Oakland Convention Center is in downtown Oakland on the corner of 10th street and Clay Street. There is come on the street parking but your best bet is lot parking. The Cow Palace is in Daly City on the corner of Geneva and Santos. Parking is $5.00. Street parking is available but _VERY_ limited. Admission to the show is $5.00 unless you have a VIP pass. VIP passes can be gotten at Robert Austin's web page (http://www.robertaustin.com). The show hours are 10:00am to 4:00pm. We will be meeting at the Cow Palace or the Oakland convention center, respectively at 9:00am to setup and will be there till 4 when the show closes. Tear down usually takes about 30 minutes. If you are interested in helping please contact Josef Grosch - jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Nicole Harrington - nicole@mediacity.com More information about the show can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Install.html This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: InstallAnnounce.txt,v 1.11 1999/03/19 16:26:30 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 1: 0:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53C4B15143 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:00:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00256 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:00:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199904010900.BAA00256@agora.bafug.org> Subject: FreeBSD Counter Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:00:05 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: CounterPageAnnounce.txt,v 1.9 1999/03/19 16:26:06 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 1: 0:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74BB414FC0 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:00:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA00290 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:00:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199904010900.BAA00290@agora.bafug.org> Subject: FreeBSD Retail Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:00:14 -0800 (PST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: RetailAnnounce.txt,v 1.5 1999/03/19 16:25:34 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 1: 3:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E121914C8C for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:03:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 8144 invoked by alias); 1 Apr 1999 09:03:13 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 8131 invoked by uid 0); 1 Apr 1999 09:03:13 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 1 Apr 1999 09:03:13 -0000 Message-ID: <37033625.9932E171@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 01:02:29 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: I just can't take it anymore... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My apologies for posting something not entirely related to FreeBSD, but if there was ever a group of expert users... Can anyone recommend a heat sink/fan for an SEPP 400 MHz Celeron? It needs to be a tachometer fan and provide adequate cooling for a system that normally runs with a mainboard temp of 85F. A thermal sensor would be nice (Asus mainboard) but not necessary. This isn't hard to nail down, in fact my mainboard manual recommends two models (made by them/subsidiaries no less), but noise-levels are really hard to find out about. Ball-bearing fans are often really good and reliable, but whine. To me, a high quality fan should be make no more noise than that of the rush of air. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 1:11:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BB814FEE for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id TAA19222; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:10:04 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990401191001.10388@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:10:01 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Narvi Cc: lcremean@tidalwave.net, Greg Lehey , The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... References: <19990401031238.A70058@tidalwave.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Narvi on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:36:30AM +0300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:36:30AM +0300, Narvi wrote: > > On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 05:01:19PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > > On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 2:29:19 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > > > > > http://www.userfriendly.org :( > > > > > > Do you have any evidence that it was Microslop? > > > > Not a soul has said anything. Segfault, User Friendly, and BeDope are all > > affected by this, and they're all disturbingly mum about it. > > > > -lee...then again, this may well be one of the biggest AFJs ever > > pulled...but we have no proof. > > > > If it is April fools joke, then why shut down all the pages, including the > links page? If you had to shut down a site on or around 1 April, wouldn't you make a point of mentioning that it is not a joke? -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 1:12:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CF6B14F8A for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 01:12:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA11522; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:42:02 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id SAA91539; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:42:00 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990401184159.B413@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:41:59 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Sue Blake , Narvi Cc: lcremean@tidalwave.net, The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... References: <19990401031238.A70058@tidalwave.net> <19990401191001.10388@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990401191001.10388@welearn.com.au>; from Sue Blake on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 07:10:01PM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 19:10:01 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:36:30AM +0300, Narvi wrote: >> >> On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Lee Cremeans wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 05:01:19PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 2:29:19 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.userfriendly.org :( >>>> >>>> Do you have any evidence that it was Microslop? >>> >>> Not a soul has said anything. Segfault, User Friendly, and BeDope are all >>> affected by this, and they're all disturbingly mum about it. >>> >>> -lee...then again, this may well be one of the biggest AFJs ever >>> pulled...but we have no proof. >>> >> >> If it is April fools joke, then why shut down all the pages, including the >> links page? > > If you had to shut down a site on or around 1 April, wouldn't you make > a point of mentioning that it is not a joke? That depends on my frame of mind. If I were really upset about the whole business, or a lawyer, I might not do so. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 2:32: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB538151C7 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:32:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id MAA24869 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:31:41 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10Sdpa-000WyZC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:32:10 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Date: 1 Apr 1999 11:32:07 +0200 Message-ID: <7dveen$737$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <7drke8$lmn$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <7142.922948035@zippy.cdrom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > I think this whole paranoia about cookies really goes a bit far. Possibly. However, a whole lot of sites throw out cookies for every document served, and I certainly don't feel in control of thousands of cookies. I can't be bothered to change browser settings site by site. There's a basic rule about web technology: if it can be abused, it will be abused. And probably in the majority of cases where it is used at all. > I don't see how a shopping cart aplication can really work reasonably > without them, Dynamic URLs. See Amazon.com for a working example. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de LinuxTag '99 - 26./27. Juni, Uni Kaiserslautern - http://www.linuxtag.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 2:42:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.162]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 450DE15318 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:42:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scott@dcs.qmw.ac.uk) Received: from brian.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.7]; by hotpoint.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.5/S-4.0) with ESMTP; for ""; id LAA28492; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:42:14 +0100 (BST) Received: (from scott@localhost) by brian.dcs.qmw.ac.uk (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) id LAA12017 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:42:18 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <19990401114218.D7096@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:42:18 +0100 From: Scott Mitchell To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Chuck is cute References: <7drke8$lmn$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <7142.922948035@zippy.cdrom.com> <7dveen$737$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <7dveen$737$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:32:07AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:32:07AM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > I think this whole paranoia about cookies really goes a bit far. > > Possibly. However, a whole lot of sites throw out cookies for every > document served, and I certainly don't feel in control of thousands of > cookies. I can't be bothered to change browser settings site by site. > There's a basic rule about web technology: if it can be abused, it will > be abused. And probably in the majority of cases where it is used at > all. > > > I don't see how a shopping cart aplication can really work reasonably > > without them, > > Dynamic URLs. See Amazon.com for a working example. True, but amazon.com and amazon.co.uk also use cookies, and forget who I am when I turn them off... Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 2:53:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720BA14F48 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 02:53:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Sf5b-000GW6-0B; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:52:48 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA01470; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:52:37 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA05100; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:52:36 +0100 Message-ID: <37034FCE.96F06A76@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 11:51:58 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Hermit Hacker , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A little levity in an ever stressful life... :) References: <3703458C.86A825AA@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > > The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > http://www.pressanykey.com/humor/berkeleysong.html > > > > If you liked that, then you'll probably like the attached (I can't > remember the URL where I found it, that's why I've attached it). > Doh! 5 minutes after I sent it I noticed the tiny text at the bottom contained the URL. So here it is for everyone: http://www.MacKiDo.com/Humor/song_write_in_C.html -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 3:21:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from titan.metropolitan.at (unknown [195.212.98.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3348615220 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 03:20:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mladavac@metropolitan.at) Received: by TITAN with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <2AY77JHV>; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:22:51 +0200 Message-ID: <97A8CA5BF490D211A94F0000F6C2E55D097587@s-lmh-wi-900.corpnet.at> From: Ladavac Marino To: 'Mark Ovens' , Amancio Hasty Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: Sweet news 8) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:17:19 +0200 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Ovens [SMTP:marko@uk.radan.com] > Sent: Thursday, April 01, 1999 1:06 AM > To: Amancio Hasty > Cc: chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Sweet news 8) > > Follow some of the Talkback links at the end of the article as > well, there's some good ones, like this: > > "Just proves that Microsoft is not a monopoly. If they were, they > would have both made the virus and anit-virus software. > > Windows users also are more robust than Linux or Unix slaves. > And we leave email addresses." > [ML] This one is mine. You can use it as you see fit. "One should admire the Windows users. It takes a great deal of personal courage to trust Windows with your data." Yes, there is a horror story behind it (details available upon request:) /Marino > -- > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov > _______________________________________________________________ > Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK > CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry > mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 4:27:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dnh.pce.net (dnh.pce.net [207.1.59.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB88814D1F for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 04:27:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dave@dnh.pce.net) Received: from localhost (dave@localhost) by dnh.pce.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id HAA51691; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:25:52 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from dave@dnh.pce.net) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:25:51 -0500 (EST) From: Dave Hummel Reply-To: dhh@pce.net To: Greg Lehey Cc: Sue Blake , Narvi , lcremean@tidalwave.net, The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... In-Reply-To: <19990401184159.B413@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 19:10:01 +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:36:30AM +0300, Narvi wrote: > >> > >> On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Lee Cremeans wrote: > >> > >>> On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 05:01:19PM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > >>>> On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 2:29:19 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> http://www.userfriendly.org :( > >>>> > >>>> Do you have any evidence that it was Microslop? > >>> > >>> Not a soul has said anything. Segfault, User Friendly, and BeDope are all > >>> affected by this, and they're all disturbingly mum about it. > >>> > >>> -lee...then again, this may well be one of the biggest AFJs ever > >>> pulled...but we have no proof. > >>> > >> > >> If it is April fools joke, then why shut down all the pages, including the > >> links page? > > > > If you had to shut down a site on or around 1 April, wouldn't you make > > a point of mentioning that it is not a joke? > > That depends on my frame of mind. If I were really upset about the > whole business, or a lawyer, I might not do so. > It's a pretty good AFJ if it is one. Slashdot mentioned the threat to www.userfriendly.org and www.segfault.org on March 24, so the conspirator list is pretty big. Brief article and resulting discussion at http://www.slashdot.org/articles/99/03/24/2131201.shtml To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 5: 4:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DDB714F10 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 05:04:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-044.thuntek.net [207.66.52.44]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id GAA28437; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 06:04:01 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <37036E35.3EF9B766@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 06:01:41 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, junkmale@xtra.co.nz Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 01-Apr-99 Greg Lehey wrote: > > Sheesh. I wonder who that was. > > Microsoft? Intel? Pick your favourite litigious company. > Now, wait a minute, Daniel! Micros**t sues, yes, but Intel has not initiated any lawsuits! All this crap that's been going on has been initiated by that OTHER roach from AMD named Jerry Sanders. Too bad M$ and AMD aren't in the same business, they'd slaughter each other! Intel developed stuff that wen't far beyond the original second-source and patent-exchange agreements, and AMD didn't have anything comparable. They let the agreement lapse after the i386 generation, with just cause. (I was an assembly-code programmer in a previous life, and my first 'PC' was an Intel SDK-86 eval board. I've followed this for years in EETimes!) What is happening now is the noxious government in Washington is squeezing Intel because "it's bad for business" not to have cheap uP for PC's. AMD and Cyrix have NO right to ANY PORTION of the Pentium market unless they can clean-room it, and experience has shown that they can't. AMD even tried stealing a few years ago. That seems to be becoming ethically acceptable now, there's a company called Avant! in SilVal that's still doing business after it has been proven that they stole code from Cadence. Then again, with Bill Clinton in the White House ... -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 5: 6:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tuminfo2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (tuminfo2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de [131.159.0.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C545C14F10 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 05:06:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from schmidts@informatik.tu-muenchen.de) Received: from hpsystem14.informatik.tu-muenchen.de ([131.159.4.9] EHLO hpsystem14.informatik.tu-muenchen.de ident: root [port 4375]) by tuminfo2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de with ESMTP id <110887-229>; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:06:01 +0000 Received: from schmidts@localhost (fake: hphalle7.informatik.tu-muenchen.de) by hpsystem14.informatik.tu-muenchen.de id <12000-8141>; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:05:29 +0200 From: schmidts@informatik.tu-muenchen.de To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nato Web's site 8) Newsgroups: mpc.lists.freebsd.chat,muc.lists.freebsd.chat In-Reply-To: <199903312332.PAA33527@rah.star-gate.com> X-Newsreader: TIN [UNIX 1.3 unoff BETA 970516; 9000/720 HP-UX B.10.20] Message-Id: <19990401130542Z12000-8141+1817@hpsystem14.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:05:29 +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org : It appears that Nato's web site is under intense attack like being pounded by : 2000 email messages per day.. Its got to be running Windows !! : http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2234899,00.html check this: http://www.microsoft.com/security/resources/NATOCaseStudy.asp and count 1+1. ;-) stefan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 5:12:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat192.236.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.192.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C550515196 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 05:12:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA88807; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:11:53 -0400 (AST) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:11:52 -0400 (AST) From: The Hermit Hacker To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... In-Reply-To: <19990401170119.A413@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 2:29:19 -0400, The Hermit Hacker wrote: > > > > http://www.userfriendly.org :( > > Do you have any evidence that it was Microslop? No, and I thought about it afterwards, and they just did a cartoon on the PIII, where they have the assembly line paying an extra I on the PII chip...might have been Intel. The only other things they "play with" are Linux and FreeBSD, and I don't think either camp could *afford* to shut them down, nor would want to, since we're at least smart enough to realize its "in good fun"... Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 5:29:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com [195.139.121.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A94F15D3A for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 05:29:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from pms@jancomulti.com) Received: from jancomulti.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by pc16s121r4.jancomulti.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA03980 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 14:26:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from pms@jancomulti.com) Message-ID: <37036600.E6AC47B1@jancomulti.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 14:26:40 +0200 From: "Pål Sommerhein" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 2.2.8-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down References: <19990401053439.ZHJC5470601.mta2-rme@wocker> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Do you all remember the following reply from Mr. Dag-Erling Smorgrav? "Dan Langille" writes: > On 20 Mar 99, at 23:33, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Greg Lehey writes: > > > So are we all individually going to send them a big thank you? We > > > don't want this to be the last mention of FreeBSD. > > Actually, I expect to meet Iliad in the flesh during Easter. As you > > can see on http://www.userfriendly.org/, he's coming to TG, where I'm > > one of four Unix admins... > What is TG? Biggest LAN-party in the world: DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no Could it be that Illiad and Dag-Erling are having a good time at The Gathering in Norway - the "Biggest LAN-party in the world"? I'm inclined to believe so, cause here in Norway we are in the middle of the day of April the 1st. I haven't been fooled yet, or ... :-) Just my $0.02, Paal To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 7:50:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sonic.digital-web.net (sonic.digital-web.net [216.65.27.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DB4E150AC for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 07:50:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Received: from localhost (jmscott@localhost) by sonic.digital-web.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28886; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:46:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:46:04 -0500 (EST) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: jmscott@sonic.digital-web.net Reply-To: Joseph Scott To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Chuck is cute In-Reply-To: <7dveen$737$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1 Apr 1999, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > I think this whole paranoia about cookies really goes a bit far. I would agree with the above. > > Possibly. However, a whole lot of sites throw out cookies for every > document served, and I certainly don't feel in control of thousands of > cookies. I can't be bothered to change browser settings site by site. > There's a basic rule about web technology: if it can be abused, it will > be abused. And probably in the majority of cases where it is used at > all. In general I think I see whare you are coming from, but everything has it's limits as to what it can actually do. I think you'll find that many sites generate cookies for everything to make log reporting much more detailed and useful. Take a product like Web Trends ( the software is a pain, but it makes very nice reports ), it uses that info to provide very useful info, like: how many user sessions there were, how long they stayed, what path they took through the site, etc. If you are in the business/job of designing a web site that info is extremely useful. I don't want to start a battle over this, because you can always agrue against something, that's easy. > > > I don't see how a shopping cart aplication can really work reasonably > > without them, I would also tend to agree with this statement, after fighting with a co worker about different ways to deal with this, we always ended up coming back to cookies in way or another. > > Dynamic URLs. See Amazon.com for a working example. > > -- > Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de > LinuxTag '99 - 26./27. Juni, Uni Kaiserslautern - http://www.linuxtag.org > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Joseph Scott joseph@randomnetworks.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 8:11:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8645815D64 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:11:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r0.bfm.org [208.18.213.96]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id LAA23542; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:09:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990401094450.00904e30@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 09:44:50 -0600 To: Greg Lehey From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: <19990401075354.E413@lemis.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990331084816.009099f0@mail.bfm.org> <000201be7b31$8f0d9ac0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <37019498.D4EF2AB8@uswest.net> <000201be7b31$8f0d9ac0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <19990331142633.O413@lemis.com> <3.0.6.32.19990331084816.009099f0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:53 01-04-1999 +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> It has its positive side, too. I used the occasion to place an "editorial" >> on my home page explaining that my system was not and will not be infected >> by Melissa because it runs on FreeBSD. > >Then why does it claim this? > > X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Quite simple: My web site runs under FreeBSD, but I still do some things under W95 (on a different computer) - I still have a lot to learn before I can go 100% FreeBSD. But, I am happy to say, as of this week I am spending more time in FreeBSD than in W95! Once I can stop X11 from locking up my system constantly, W95 is history. Anyway, the system I was referring to is the one that runs my web site. >I checked all mailboxes on my system, but none seems to have received >a Melissa. Anybody else? Nothing here either. Even if it got in here somehow, I use none of the software that activates it. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 8:20: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from midget.dons.net.au (daniel.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.137.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD1C14D63 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:20:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from guppy.dons.net.au (guppy.dons.net.au [203.31.81.9]) by midget.dons.net.au (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA28347; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:45:48 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37036E35.3EF9B766@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 01:45:48 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel J. O'Connor" To: Donald Wilde Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down Cc: junkmale@xtra.co.nz, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Greg Lehey Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Apr-99 Donald Wilde wrote: > > > Sheesh. I wonder who that was. > > Microsoft? Intel? Pick your favourite litigious company. > Now, wait a minute, Daniel! Micros**t sues, yes, but Intel has not > initiated any lawsuits! All this crap that's been going on has been Well, actually, Intel *DO* file lawsuits. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 8:31:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B558B14E3E for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:31:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id SAA18183 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:31:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10Sk9t-000WyZC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:17:33 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Date: 1 Apr 1999 18:17:30 +0200 Message-ID: <7e066q$9i7$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <7dml0r$v3b$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <19990401095420.J1985@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Scott Mitchell wrote: > Hee hee, UK-centric addresses! Well, it makes a change from always being > asked for your 'state' and 'zip code', when you have neither. To answer > your question though, the first one should be obvious and you don't need to > worry about the other unless you have a Switch card... Indeed, now that it has been pointed out to me that "postcode" (a Briticism?) means postal code, aka "ZIP code" in American parlance, and that "Switch" is a credit card company (never heard of them before), the form starts to positively make sense. Amazing how a sum of small things can throw you off. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de carpe librum: books 'n' reviews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 8:32:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0872914E3E for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 08:32:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id SAA18186 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:31:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10SkGH-000WyZC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:24:09 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... Date: 1 Apr 1999 18:24:06 +0200 Message-ID: <7e06j6$9jb$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <19990401031238.A70058@tidalwave.net> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lee Cremeans wrote: > -lee...then again, this may well be one of the biggest AFJs ever > pulled...but we have no proof. I'm in favor of an April Fool's. What bugs me is that I can't find anything remotely funny or entertaining about it. The other things on Slashdot (Linus moving to Moscow, the referenced Russian page seems to just say the same thing; Linux riots; recharging your laptop battery through mouse movements) are at least worth a laugh. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de carpe librum: books 'n' reviews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 9: 0:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from geek.grf.ov.com (geek.grf.ov.com [192.251.86.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F33151B7 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:00:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ksmm@threespace.com) Received: from pebbles (pebbles.cam.veritas.com [166.98.49.16]) by geek.grf.ov.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id LAA24524; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:59:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199904011659.LAA24524@geek.grf.ov.com> X-Sender: ksmm@mail.cybercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 11:40:13 -0500 To: "Daniel O'Connor" From: The Classiest Man Alive Subject: Re: FreeBSD is running out of time Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199903311559.KAA27202@geek.grf.ov.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just assumed that once we made a change to something as fundamental as the architecture's word size that everything else built upon that (including the filesystem structures) would follow suit. In other words, I wasn't expecting that backward compatibility would be paramount after going 64-bit. K.S. At 07:59 PM 3/31/99 , Daniel O'Connor wrote: > >On 31-Mar-99 The Classiest Man Alive wrote: >> Not pretending to understand all of the issues, but won't this be rendered >> moot on a 64-bit architecture? Do we still expect people to be running > >Have a think about it.. > >The structures on disk are fixed in size regardless of your hardware (how could >it be any other way?) > >--- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 9:32:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59A60152BD for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:32:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-166.thuntek.net [207.66.52.166]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id KAA12773; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:32:12 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3703AD02.4B4091E@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 10:29:38 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Daniel J. O'Connor" Cc: junkmale@xtra.co.nz, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Greg Lehey Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Daniel J. O'Connor wrote: > > On 01-Apr-99 Donald Wilde wrote: > > > > Sheesh. I wonder who that was. > > > Microsoft? Intel? Pick your favourite litigious company. > > Now, wait a minute, Daniel! Micros**t sues, yes, but Intel has not > > initiated any lawsuits! All this crap that's been going on has been > > Well, actually, Intel *DO* file lawsuits. > Sure, but only in retaliation. In 20 years of serious Intel-watching (I programmed x51, x251, x930, x86, x286 and x386 in ASM), I have never seen them blast the first shot, even though AMD sorely warranted it. The only thing that I ever saw AMD come up that was worth watching (the LANCE was after the battle started) was their CAM subsystem-on-a-chip, and it was buggy as all 7734 and virtually impossible to use. -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 9:53:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (host-e186.tidalwave.net [208.213.203.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADD014BFF for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:53:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from lee@st-lcremean.tidalwave.net) Received: (from lee@localhost) by st-lcremean.tidalwave.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id MAA93890; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:53:05 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990401125305.A71307@tidalwave.net> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:53:05 -0500 From: Lee Cremeans To: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... Reply-To: lcremean@tidalwave.net References: <19990401031238.A70058@tidalwave.net> <7e06j6$9jb$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <7e06j6$9jb$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 06:24:06PM +0200 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE Organization: My room? Are you crazy? :) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 06:24:06PM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Lee Cremeans wrote: > > > -lee...then again, this may well be one of the biggest AFJs ever > > pulled...but we have no proof. > > I'm in favor of an April Fool's. What bugs me is that I can't find > anything remotely funny or entertaining about it. Yeah...it's too heavy-handed and drawn out to really be funny. Of course, this means that if it's revealed as nothing but a AFJ, people will be right pissed. Then again, it may not be that the legal action is an AFJ, just the shutdowns. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | | lcremean@tidalwave.net| http://st-lcremean.tidalwave.net/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 10:26: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BE5F15183 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:25:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA21762 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:25:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA20171 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:25:23 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <7e06j6$9jb$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 13:25:22 -0500 (EST) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: MicroSloth rears its ugly head once more ... Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 01-Apr-99 Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Lee Cremeans wrote: > >> -lee...then again, this may well be one of the biggest AFJs ever >> pulled...but we have no proof. > > I'm in favor of an April Fool's. What bugs me is that I can't find > anything remotely funny or entertaining about it. Yes, it is getting very old, very quick. There's gonna be a lot of mad people tomorrow, the question is who will they be mad at? --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 10:32:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vanessa.eliuk.org (sec3d12.dial.uniserve.ca [204.244.165.123]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D9F615D52 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:32:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net) Received: from localhost (cagey@localhost) by vanessa.eliuk.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00690 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:32:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cagey@vanessa.eliuk.org) X-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by vanessa.eliuk.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00664 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:25:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-brunix@belldandy.bortnak.com) Envelope-to: kevin_eliuk@sunshine.net X-Received: from sunshine.net by localhost with POP3 (fetchmail-4.7.0) for cagey@localhost (single-drop); Thu, 01 Apr 1999 18:25:51 +0000 (UTC) X-Received: from 168-51.dtm.bc.ca (belldandy.bortnak.com) [209.17.168.51] by pop.uniserve.com with esmtp (Exim 1.82 #4) id 10SluX-0002OF-00; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:09:50 -0800 X-Received: (from majord@localhost) by belldandy.bortnak.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA10475 for brunix-outgoing; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:26:51 -0800 X-Authentication-Warning: belldandy.bortnak.com: majord set sender to owner-brunix@lists.bortnak.com using -f X-Received: from pop.capcollege.bc.ca ([134.87.19.33]) by belldandy.bortnak.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id KAA10472 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:26:47 -0800 Message-Id: <199904011826.KAA10472@belldandy.bortnak.com> X-Received: (qmail 8758 invoked from network); 1 Apr 1999 17:24:22 -0000 X-Received: from unknown (HELO rchadder-ii) (204.239.152.238) by pop.capcollege.bc.ca with SMTP; 1 Apr 1999 17:24:22 -0000 From: "Richard Chadderton" Organization: Capilano College To: Brunix@belldandy.bortnak.com Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 09:22:46 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: WARNING: Internet Cleaning on April 1 Reply-To: RChadder@CapCollege.BC.CA X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Some of you folks might appreciate this... Others may not... ---------------------------- Internet Cleaning DO NOT CONNECT TO THE INTERNET FROM MARCH 31st 23:59 pm (GMT) UNTIL 12:01am (GMT) APRIL 2nd. *** Attention *** It's that time again! As many of you know, each year the Internet must be shut down for 24 hours in order to allow us to clean it. The cleaning process, which eliminates dead email and inactive ftp, www and gopher sites, allows for a better-working and faster Internet. This year, the cleaning process will take place from 23:59 pm (GMT) on March 31st until 00:01 am (GMT) on April 2nd. During that 24-hour period, five powerful Internet-crawling robots situated around the world will search the Internet and delete any data that they find. In order to protect your valuable data from deletion we ask that you do the following: 1. Disconnect all terminals and local area networks from their Internet connections. 2. Shut down all Internet servers, or disconnect them from the Internet. 3. Disconnect all disks and hardrives from any connections to the Internet. 4. Refrain from connecting any computer to the Internet in any way. We understand the inconvenience that this may cause some Internet users, and we apologize. However, we are certain that any inconveniences will be more than made up for by the increased speed and efficiency of the Internet, once it has been cleared of electronic flotsam and jetsam. We thank you for your cooperation. Fu Ling Yu Interconnected Network Maintenance Staff Main Branch, Massachusetts Institute of Technology Sysops and others: Since the last Internet cleaning, the number of Internet users has grown dramatically. Please assist us in alerting the public of the upcoming Internet cleaning by posting this message where your users will be able to read it. Please pass this message on to other sysops and Internet users as well. Thank you. ---------------------------- ----------------- Unsubscribe messages sent directly to brunix will be met with howls of laughter and a considerable amount of derision. If you really don't want to be here, send a message to brunix-request@lists.bortnak.com with no subject and the word "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) in the body of the message. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 10:38:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4418714F2D for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:38:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08498; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:49:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd008378; Thu Apr 1 12:49:12 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA06585; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 11:37:39 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904011837.LAA06585@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Chuck is cute To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:37:39 +0000 (GMT) Cc: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <7142.922948035@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Mar 31, 99 10:27:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Now, how do I order?... Shopping basket remains empty... Oh, I see, a > > shopping system that requires cookies. (And it doesn't even say so. Talk > > about slapping your customers in the face.) I don't buy from these as a > > rule, but I guess there's no alternative supplier here. > > I think this whole paranoia about cookies really goes a bit far. The thing about cookies, which the fools who don't mind them being shat upon their hard drives never seem to address, is that not all possible devices for browsing the Internet have volatile storage to where these cookies may be shat. If you can't store them, you're going to have a hell of a time sending them back. As a technology, they discourage storageless browsing devices. Which is fine, I suppose, if you are a storage device company, or if you are an OS vendor in the Redmond area whose "embeddable" OS requires non-volatile RAM, and you are interested in pushing your product more than you are interested in cheap, pervasive access to computing resources using portal devices. > I don't see how a shopping cart aplication can really work reasonably > without them, unless Christian here would like to provide us with one > which doesn't and yet provides the same functionality. :) It's very trivial. You use an authenticated session ID, and you store whatever you would have shat upon the unsuspecting hard drive as local state indexed by the session ID. JAVA Server Pages, and even the Microsoft IIS "V.I.P.E.R." framework can both operate in this mode. In addition, any HTTP 1.1 capable browser can be told to keep a TCP session open, thereby associating the session ID with a persistant socket as an identifier for the device that initiated the session. These are just the ones I *know* are deployed. There are literally hundreds of easy alternatives, and literally tens of obvious ones. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 10:40:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scalar.org (scalar.org [208.161.124.67]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A6014D03 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:40:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dougb@scalar.org) Received: (from dougb@localhost) by scalar.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id KAA05901; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:39:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dougb) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:39:05 -0800 From: Doug Beaver To: Scott Mitchell Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Message-ID: <19990401103905.B5764@scalar.org> References: <7drke8$lmn$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <7142.922948035@zippy.cdrom.com> <7dveen$737$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <19990401114218.D7096@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990401114218.D7096@dcs.qmw.ac.uk>; from Scott Mitchell on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:42:18AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:42:18AM +0100, Scott Mitchell wrote: > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:32:07AM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > > Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > > I think this whole paranoia about cookies really goes a bit far. > > > > Possibly. However, a whole lot of sites throw out cookies for every > > document served, and I certainly don't feel in control of thousands of > > cookies. I can't be bothered to change browser settings site by site. > > There's a basic rule about web technology: if it can be abused, it will > > be abused. And probably in the majority of cases where it is used at > > all. > > > > > I don't see how a shopping cart aplication can really work reasonably > > > without them, > > > > Dynamic URLs. See Amazon.com for a working example. > > True, but amazon.com and amazon.co.uk also use cookies, and forget who I am > when I turn them off... Hi Scott: Well, yeah, of course it's going to forget you if you don't have cookies turned on... Would you expect it to work any other way? ;-) Yes, they use cookies, but if you have cookies turned off, you can still use the site. You just have to login first, and then you can browse and it will remember who you are until you leave the site. Once you leave the site, you'll have to login again the next time you visit. Doug > > Scott > > -- > =========================================================================== > Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just > | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" > QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 10:44:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Radford.i-Plus.net (radford.i-plus.net [209.100.20.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8D714ECB for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 10:44:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rewt@i-Plus.net) Received: from rio.i-plus.net (rewt@rio.i-plus.net [209.100.20.25]) by Radford.i-Plus.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA24625 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:36:22 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 13:36:24 -0500 (EST) From: Troy Settle To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nato Web's site 8) In-Reply-To: <19990401130542Z12000-8141+1817@hpsystem14.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The information at that URL makes me laugh! Quickly implementing a robust network used to transmit sensitive data can prove to be a challenging task. And when NATO was responding to the Bosnia crisis in 1995...wide-area network based on Windows NT Server 4.0. NC3A got what it needed...could be deployed at less cost and in less time than one based on UNIX. Ok, let's see here. In 1995, NT 4.0 DID NOT EXIST! "less cost...less time" ??? WHAT?!?! I'm sorry, but I'm sure that even *I* could build and deploy a UNIX based network faster and cheaper than anyone could deploy an NT based network. What's M$ been smoking, and why aren't they sharing? -- Troy Settle Network Administrator, iPlus Internet Services http://www.i-Plus.net On Thu, 1 Apr 1999 schmidts@informatik.tu-muenchen.de wrote: > : It appears that Nato's web site is under intense attack like being pounded by > : 2000 email messages per day.. Its got to be running Windows !! > > : http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2234899,00.html > > check this: > http://www.microsoft.com/security/resources/NATOCaseStudy.asp > > and count 1+1. ;-) > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 12:46:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 949A514FD5 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:46:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA24111; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:45:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd017625; Thu Apr 1 12:34:56 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id MAA08863; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 12:34:46 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904011934.MAA08863@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD is running out of time To: ksmm@threespace.com (The Classiest Man Alive) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:34:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: doconnor@gsoft.com.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199904011659.LAA24524@geek.grf.ov.com> from "The Classiest Man Alive" at Apr 1, 99 11:40:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I just assumed that once we made a change to something as fundamental as > the architecture's word size that everything else built upon that > (including the filesystem structures) would follow suit. In other words, I > wasn't expecting that backward compatibility would be paramount after going > 64-bit. Nope. Try talking to a 21041 chip on the other side of a PCI bridge in anything except device register size units. Device drivers don't change because of memory bus size changes. Also note that on-disk structure sizes are chosen for their ability to be represented in integral multiples or fractions of a physical disk block. It is drastically easier to deal in terms of an atomic write to a single disk block (check out the FFS directory entry code to see what it would take to allow it to span two 512b disk blocks -- I've made the change for Unicode support... it's not pretty). Inodes are currently 128 bytes; the next integral fraction of a disk block is 256 bytes. Note that this would effectively double the amount of disk space that must be dedicated to inode storage, even though it meets the <= one disk block pseudo-requirement. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 15:34:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25DB314D58 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:34:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #4) id 10Soyu-000OLQ-00; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:26:32 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:26:32 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: schmidts@informatik.tu-muenchen.de Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nato Web's site 8) Message-ID: <19990401222632.A93571@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <199903312332.PAA33527@rah.star-gate.com> <19990401130542Z12000-8141+1817@hpsystem14.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990401130542Z12000-8141+1817@hpsystem14.informatik.tu-muenchen.de> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org schmidts@informatik.tu-muenchen.de wrote: > check this: > http://www.microsoft.com/security/resources/NATOCaseStudy.asp Here's what I get: Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a000d' Type mismatch: 'CInt' /security/inc/scripts.txt, line 279 And Microsoft say their pathetic OS can be used on servers? -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk send a blank message to ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 15:46:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 445C2152D2 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:46:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA14455; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:15:49 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA93108; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:15:48 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990402091548.D413@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:15:48 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?P=E5l_Sommerhein?= , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down References: <19990401053439.ZHJC5470601.mta2-rme@wocker> <37036600.E6AC47B1@jancomulti.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?=3C37036600=2EE6AC47B1=40jancomulti=2Ecom=3E=3B_from_P=E5?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?l_Sommerhein_on_Thu=2C_Apr_01=2C_1999_at_02:26:40PM_+0200?= WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 14:26:40 +0200, Pål Sommerhein wrote: > Do you all remember the following reply from Mr. Dag-Erling Smorgrav? > > > "Dan Langille" writes: >> On 20 Mar 99, at 23:33, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >>> Greg Lehey writes: >>>> So are we all individually going to send them a big thank you? We >>>> don't want this to be the last mention of FreeBSD. >>> Actually, I expect to meet Iliad in the flesh during Easter. As you >>> can see on http://www.userfriendly.org/, he's coming to TG, where I'm >>> one of four Unix admins... >> What is TG? > > Biggest LAN-party in the world: > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > > Could it be that Illiad and Dag-Erling are having a good time at > The Gathering in Norway - the "Biggest LAN-party in the world"? > > I'm inclined to believe so, cause here in Norway we are in the middle > of the day of April the 1st. I haven't been fooled yet, or ... :-) Well, it's Easter, so maybe DES can get the low-down from Illiad. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 15:46:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3D3F152D2 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:46:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by mail.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:36:10 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Ben Smithurst" , Cc: Subject: RE: Nato Web's site 8) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:45:52 -0800 Message-ID: <000001be7c99$c7105750$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <19990401222632.A93571@scientia.demon.co.uk> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That looks a lot like a bad script and suspiciously unlike an operating system problem. DS > > schmidts@informatik.tu-muenchen.de wrote: > > > check this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/security/resources/NATOCaseStudy.asp > > Here's what I get: > > Microsoft VBScript runtime > error '800a000d' > > Type mismatch: 'CInt' > > /security/inc/scripts.txt, line 279 > > And Microsoft say their pathetic OS can be used on servers? > > -- > Ben Smithurst > ben@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 16:42:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1DD3150AF for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 16:39:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id CAA64088; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 02:39:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Pål Sommerhein , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dag-Erling Smorgrav Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down References: <19990401053439.ZHJC5470601.mta2-rme@wocker> <37036600.E6AC47B1@jancomulti.com> <19990402091548.D413@lemis.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 02 Apr 1999 02:39:18 +0200 In-Reply-To: Greg Lehey's message of "Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:15:48 +0930" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey writes: > On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 14:26:40 +0200, Pål Sommerhein wrote: > > Could it be that Illiad and Dag-Erling are having a good time at > > The Gathering in Norway - the "Biggest LAN-party in the world"? > > > > I'm inclined to believe so, cause here in Norway we are in the middle > > of the day of April the 1st. I haven't been fooled yet, or ... :-) > Well, it's Easter, so maybe DES can get the low-down from Illiad. Yes, guys, it's a joke. Check the page again - a lot of people were in on it, including the Slahsdot, Segfault and BeDope people. DES (who hasn't had time to talk to Illiad yet) -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 17:16:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [208.138.36.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4783014F98 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:16:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id RAA19935; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:16:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:16:05 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down Message-ID: <19990401171605.U98992@001101.zer0.org> References: <19990401053439.ZHJC5470601.mta2-rme@wocker> <37036600.E6AC47B1@jancomulti.com> <19990402091548.D413@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 02:39:18AM +0200 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 02:39:18AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Greg Lehey writes: > > On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 14:26:40 +0200, Pål Sommerhein wrote: > > > Could it be that Illiad and Dag-Erling are having a good time at > > > The Gathering in Norway - the "Biggest LAN-party in the world"? > > > > > > I'm inclined to believe so, cause here in Norway we are in the middle > > > of the day of April the 1st. I haven't been fooled yet, or ... :-) > > Well, it's Easter, so maybe DES can get the low-down from Illiad. > > Yes, guys, it's a joke. Check the page again - a lot of people were in > on it, including the Slahsdot, Segfault and BeDope people. > > DES (who hasn't had time to talk to Illiad yet) Well, when you do, you might want to mention that the next time he wants to have an April Fool's joke, he should think of one that is even vaguely humorous. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter If ignorance is bliss, you must be orgasmic. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 17:27:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B28115383 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:27:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10SsjI-0002iN-0A; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:26:41 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id CAA00699; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 02:26:07 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id CAA00317; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 02:23:01 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 02:23:01 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Christian Weisgerber Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Message-ID: <19990402022301.A262@marder-1.localhost> References: <7dml0r$v3b$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <19990401095420.J1985@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> <7e066q$9i7$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <7e066q$9i7$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de>; from Christian Weisgerber on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 06:17:30PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 06:17:30PM +0200, Christian Weisgerber wrote: > Scott Mitchell wrote: > > > Hee hee, UK-centric addresses! Well, it makes a change from always being > > asked for your 'state' and 'zip code', when you have neither. To answer > > your question though, the first one should be obvious and you don't need to > > worry about the other unless you have a Switch card... > > Indeed, now that it has been pointed out to me that "postcode" (a > Briticism?) means postal code, aka "ZIP code" in American parlance, and postcode, postal code, same thing really > that "Switch" is a credit card company (never heard of them before), the Switch is a Debit Card. Use it and your bank account is debited directly. You use them instead of cheques (I assume you have the same in Germany but call them something else?) -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 17:33:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F48D154D9 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:33:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990402013507.CTMM5611744.mta2-rme@wocker>; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:35:07 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Gregory Sutter Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:33:43 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990401171605.U98992@001101.zer0.org> References: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 02:39:18AM +0200 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990402013507.CTMM5611744.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1 Apr 99, at 17:16, Gregory Sutter wrote: > Well, when you do, you might want to mention that the next time he wants > to have an April Fool's joke, he should think of one that is even vaguely > humorous. But it is humourous! Look at all the msgs that flew around! Everyone was taken in. That's the funny bit. You might also want to see a mouse that recharges laptop batteries: http://www.compaq.co.nz -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 17:56:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5E8514BE5 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:55:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA41461; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 17:54:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904020154.RAA41461@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "David Schwartz" Cc: "Ben Smithurst" , schmidts@informatik.tu-muenchen.de, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Nato Web's site 8) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 01 Apr 1999 15:45:52 PST." <000001be7c99$c7105750$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 17:54:00 -0800 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Perhaps is a bad script or the system corrupted the script or its script runtime 8) Cheers, Amancio > > That looks a lot like a bad script and suspiciously unlike an operating > system problem. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 18:19: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from granite.sentex.net (granite.sentex.ca [199.212.134.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BDE81517F for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:18:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mike@sentex.net) Received: from ospf-wat.sentex.net (ospf-wat.sentex.net [209.167.248.81]) by granite.sentex.net (8.8.8/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA10319 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 21:18:36 -0500 (EST) From: mike@sentex.net (Mike Tancsa) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nato Web's site 8) Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 02:28:27 GMT Message-ID: <3704296d.4225825605@mail.sentex.net> References: <199903312332.PAA33527@rah.star-gate.com> In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent .99e/32.227 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1 Apr 1999 08:06:19 -0500, in sentex.lists.freebsd.misc you wrote: >: It appears that Nato's web site is under intense attack like being pounded by >: 2000 email messages per day.. Its got to be running Windows !! > >: http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2234899,00.html > >check this: >http://www.microsoft.com/security/resources/NATOCaseStudy.asp > >and count 1+1. ;-) What really gets me is the statement "Our people can use and administer Windows NT [-based] systems with very little training." Why is it only in the IT realm, that people think like this "I know how to point and click the mouse in Windows. System Administration and Network Administration just means pointing and clicking. Therefore I am a Network Administrator."... Yeah, point and click your way to oblivion.... Its as if understanding what you are pointing and clicking on does not matter. No one would ever think "I know how to point and click the mouse in Windows. AccPac is a Windows program. I can point and click in AccPac. Therefore I am an Accountant"... Also, the C2 level security stuff... I thought that was only for a stand alone unit, and not in a networked environment. ---Mike Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) Sentex Communications Corp, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 18:32:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5F5414E0D for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:32:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by mail.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:22:44 -0800 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Mike Tancsa" , Subject: RE: Nato Web's site 8) Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:32:25 -0800 Message-ID: <000001be7cb1$0b6533f0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <3704296d.4225825605@mail.sentex.net> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Also, the C2 level security stuff... I thought that was only for a stand > alone unit, and not in a networked environment. Last I heard, NT makes C2 security with no removable media and no networking. FreeBSD makes C2 security with no power cord. A FreeBSD system with no power cord is at least as useful as an NT machine with no removable media or networking. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 18:52: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 01C2C15329 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:52:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 3273 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 02:51:43 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 3256 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 02:51:42 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 02:51:42 -0000 Message-ID: <37043093.E1801A18@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 18:50:59 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Feeling old Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For as long as I've been involved with computers, I've been told (in essence) that only the young folks fresh out of college are capable of writing great software. As if technological senility sets in by the time you're 25. Then I see pictures of the core team and other well- known members of the FreeBSD community and get confused. Then I see all the young faces of the various groups in my area and begin to feel old and even more confused. Does anyone really know the average age of the core team and said peripheral contributors? I know the age thing has been hashed endlessly, but each time the question has never really been answered IMO. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 19: 1: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 636F414E51 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 18:58:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id MAA31298; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:28:40 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA31069; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:28:30 +0930 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:28:29 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Ben Smithurst Cc: schmidts@informatik.tu-muenchen.de, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Nato Web's site 8) In-Reply-To: <19990401222632.A93571@scientia.demon.co.uk> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Ben Smithurst wrote: > > check this: > > http://www.microsoft.com/security/resources/NATOCaseStudy.asp > > Here's what I get: > > Microsoft VBScript runtime > error '800a000d' > > Type mismatch: 'CInt' > > /security/inc/scripts.txt, line 279 > > And Microsoft say their pathetic OS can be used on servers? The M$ site periodically breaks for me, even when using their own browser. I either get directed to totally wrong parts of the site, script fatal errors (sometimes exposing parts of the internal code) or it just doesn't load properly (I get a banner and nothing else). I find this hilarious, except when I actually need something from the site :-) Kris > > -- > Ben Smithurst > ben@scientia.demon.co.uk > > send a blank message to ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk for PGP key > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > ----- The Feynman problem-solving algorithm: 1. Write down the problem 2. Think real hard 3. Write down the solution To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 19:52:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stade.demon.co.uk (stade.demon.co.uk [158.152.29.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82A6C155C7 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 19:50:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.1) id EAA44475 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 04:38:27 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 04:38:27 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down Message-ID: <19990402043827.A43002@titus.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk References: ; <19990401171605.U98992@001101.zer0.org> <19990402013507.CTMM5611744.mta2-rme@wocker> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990402013507.CTMM5611744.mta2-rme@wocker>; from Dan Langille on Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 01:33:43PM +1200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 01:33:43PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > But it is humourous! Look at all the msgs that flew around! Everyone was > taken in. That's the funny bit. I don't think it at all funny. It would have been if it were contained within April 1st, but the long lead-in made most people suspect it was true for too long, wasting time, effort and sympathy - which might not be so forthcoming if the event were to occur for real. Remember the story about the child who called "Wolf!". -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 20: 8: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AD1FF15D90 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 20:07:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990402040902.DMPU5611744.mta2-rme@wocker> for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:09:02 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:07:43 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz In-reply-to: <19990402043827.A43002@titus.stade.co.uk> References: <19990402013507.CTMM5611744.mta2-rme@wocker>; from Dan Langille on Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 01:33:43PM +1200 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990402040902.DMPU5611744.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 2 Apr 99, at 4:38, Adrian Wontroba wrote: > On Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 01:33:43PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > > But it is humourous! Look at all the msgs that flew around! Everyone > > was taken in. That's the funny bit. > > I don't think it at all funny. It would have been if it were contained > within April 1st, but the long lead-in made most people suspect it was > true for too long, wasting time, effort and sympathy - which might not be > so forthcoming if the event were to occur for real. The only important point is that it did occur on 1 April. There was immedicate speculation that it was an AFJ. Those that rushed off wasting time, effort, and sympathey were premature. Everyone I spoke with adopted a wait-and-see attitude. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 21:13:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C50B514CC2 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 21:13:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA24867 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:13:27 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:13:27 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down In-Reply-To: <19990402040902.DMPU5611744.mta2-rme@wocker> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thought it was funny. I think it's in the nature of April Fool's jokes to irritate some people but I don't think that was their intent. I think a measure of it's success was the amount of people who seriously considered it to be true. Andrew Perry On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Dan Langille wrote: > Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:07:43 +1200 > From: Dan Langille > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: User Friendly has been shut down > > On 2 Apr 99, at 4:38, Adrian Wontroba wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 01:33:43PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > > > But it is humourous! Look at all the msgs that flew around! Everyone > > > was taken in. That's the funny bit. > > > > I don't think it at all funny. It would have been if it were contained > > within April 1st, but the long lead-in made most people suspect it was > > true for too long, wasting time, effort and sympathy - which might not be > > so forthcoming if the event were to occur for real. > > The only important point is that it did occur on 1 April. There was > immedicate speculation that it was an AFJ. Those that rushed off wasting > time, effort, and sympathey were premature. Everyone I spoke with adopted > a wait-and-see attitude. > > -- > Dan Langille > The FreeBSD Diary > http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 22:28: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 23D6A15634 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:27:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 2284 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 06:27:24 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 2254 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 06:27:23 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 06:27:23 -0000 Message-ID: <37046321.153C8966@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 22:26:41 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Benson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000701be7b36$4cc9da20$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Benson wrote: > The only thing I can say about the wrapping problem is that by > default Outlook will insert a new line every 76 characters. This > option can be set to what ever you want. If you were to set it to > 100 characters it wouldn't mess up the line, but the writer would > have to remember to hit enter every 70 or so characters so that the > mail could be read on none windows machines. I've tried this here > to see if it works. If you think that's bad, I think it was Exchange that let you use page-width as a line limiter when using non-monospace fonts in rich-text (RTF/Word markup, not HTML) encoded e-mails. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 22:38:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E9FC715508 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:38:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 11506 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 06:38:14 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 11484 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 06:38:14 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 06:38:14 -0000 Message-ID: <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 22:37:32 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Benson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000001be7b39$b40c2640$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Benson wrote: > > > > > Sure, that works, but it's a workaround, and a barely acceptable one > > at that. I've been corresponding with users of Microsoft platform > > mailers (there, Terry!), and they continually run into trouble because > > they're used to autowrap. > > > > Greg > > -- > > I'm constantly moving between various UNIX, FreeBSD, and Microsoft machines > and have become used to the work arounds involved. I would hope that most > people on these list could handle some basic work arounds. after all Work > arounds are a way of life in the computer world unfortunately. > > I know there are problems with the Netscape mail program, but are they only > on the Windows version? Are these problems present in most GUI based mailers? > Mac, X-Windows, and such. This message is sent using Netscape Messenger v4.51. Do you see any problems with the formatting? -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 22:47:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BADCD14E84 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:47:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 18548 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 06:46:47 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 18518 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 06:46:46 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 06:46:46 -0000 Message-ID: <370467AB.7A739857@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 22:46:04 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Brad Benson , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000201be7b31$8f0d9ac0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <37019498.D4EF2AB8@uswest.net> <000201be7b31$8f0d9ac0$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <19990331142633.O413@lemis.com> <3.0.6.32.19990331084816.009099f0@mail.bfm.org> <19990401075354.E413@lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > I checked all mailboxes on my system, but none seems to have received > a Melissa. Anybody else? I keep getting them from all of my clients that standardized on Office 97. About 170 so far. I just knew it was going to happen, so I wrote a form-letter explaining that they've got Melissa, not to panic, how to get rid of it, and offering a cleaning-service for a fee of $100. Should've made it $200. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 22:49:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from charleston.softhome.net (charleston.SoftHome.net [204.144.231.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E53CE15469 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:49:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bradley@softhome.net) Received: (qmail 740 invoked by uid 417); 2 Apr 1999 07:09:58 -0000 Received: from max1-ppp-3.cyberix.com (HELO BillyJoeBob) (207.106.53.182) by smtp.softhome.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 07:09:58 -0000 From: "Brad Benson" To: "Nocturne" Cc: Subject: RE: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 01:47:39 -0500 Message-ID: <000001be7cd4$b34f9240$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > and have become used to the work arounds involved. I would > hope that most > > people on these list could handle some basic work arounds. > after all Work > > arounds are a way of life in the computer world unfortunately. > > > > I know there are problems with the Netscape mail program, but > are they only > > on the Windows version? Are these problems present in most GUI > based mailers? > > Mac, X-Windows, and such. > > This message is sent using Netscape Messenger v4.51. Do you see any > problems with the formatting? > It looks fine to me. Most mailers are fine once you turn off the non standard features. I was wondering how Netscape handles quoted messages. Outlook and many others create some bad wrapping. The quotes above give some example of this. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 22:52:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABE4215253 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 22:52:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA16432; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:22:28 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id QAA95264; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:22:22 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990402162222.A413@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:22:22 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Nocturne , Brad Benson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000001be7b39$b40c2640$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net>; from Nocturne on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 10:37:32PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 22:37:32 -0800, Nocturne wrote: > Brad Benson wrote: >> >>> >>> Sure, that works, but it's a workaround, and a barely acceptable one >>> at that. I've been corresponding with users of Microsoft platform >>> mailers (there, Terry!), and they continually run into trouble because >>> they're used to autowrap. >> >> I'm constantly moving between various UNIX, FreeBSD, and Microsoft machines >> and have become used to the work arounds involved. I would hope that most >> people on these list could handle some basic work arounds. after all Work >> arounds are a way of life in the computer world unfortunately. >> >> I know there are problems with the Netscape mail program, but are they only >> on the Windows version? Are these problems present in most GUI based mailers? >> Mac, X-Windows, and such. > > This message is sent using Netscape Messenger v4.51. Do you see any > problems with the formatting? Not this one, but the maximum line length was 76 characters. You carefully omitted the original mutilation :-) Remember the original challenge? Something like this: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, that works, but it's a workaround, and a barely acceptable one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at that. I've been corresponding with users of Microsoft platform >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailers (there, Terry!), and they continually run into trouble because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're used to autowrap. If you can reply to that without mutilating it, without entering explicit CRs, and without making your own text too long, I'll be impressed. I think you *should* be allowed to reformat it, as long as you keep the indentation level, something like this: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, that works, but it's a workaround, and a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> barely acceptable one at that. I've been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> corresponding with users of Microsoft platform >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailers (there, Terry!), and they continually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> run into trouble because they're used to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> autowrap. Of course, even that gets a bit useless by the time you have 70 quotes :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 23: 2:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7BE3E150AF for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:02:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 1346 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 07:02:19 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 1310 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 07:02:17 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 07:02:17 -0000 Message-ID: <37046B4D.47BC1A7E@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 23:01:33 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brad Benson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000001be7b39$b40c2640$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net> <19990402162222.A413@lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, that works, but it's a workaround, and a barely acceptable one > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at that. I've been corresponding with users of Microsoft platform > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailers (there, Terry!), and they continually run into trouble because > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're used to autowrap. > > If you can reply to that without mutilating it, without entering > explicit CRs, and without making your own text too long, I'll be > impressed. I think you *should* be allowed to reformat it, as long as > you keep the indentation level, something like this: Done. As for explicit CRs, it's force of habit for me to hit return at the end of each line, it comes from my beginings of using pine which just scrolled over when your lines ran long. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 23: 4: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FD52150AF for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:03:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 2285 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 07:03:39 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 2272 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 07:03:39 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 07:03:39 -0000 Message-ID: <37046B9E.6F8AF2FE@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 23:02:54 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brad Benson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000001be7cd4$b34f9240$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brad Benson wrote: > > > I know there are problems with the Netscape mail program, but > > are they only > > > on the Windows version? Are these problems present in most GUI > > based mailers? > > > Mac, X-Windows, and such. The above is what happens when I forget to turn off line wrapping :-) > > This message is sent using Netscape Messenger v4.51. Do you see any > > problems with the formatting? > > > > It looks fine to me. Most mailers are fine once you turn off the non > standard features. I was wondering how Netscape handles quoted messages. > Outlook and many others create some bad wrapping. The quotes above give > some example of this. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 23: 7:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 413A914E0D for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:07:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA16491; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:37:30 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id QAA95322; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:37:28 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990402163727.C413@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:37:27 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Nocturne Cc: Brad Benson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000001be7b39$b40c2640$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net> <19990402162222.A413@lemis.com> <37046B4D.47BC1A7E@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <37046B4D.47BC1A7E@uswest.net>; from Nocturne on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:01:33PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 23:01:33 -0800, Nocturne wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, that works, but it's a workaround, and a barely acceptable one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at that. I've been corresponding with users of Microsoft platform >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailers (there, Terry!), and they continually run into trouble because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're used to autowrap. >> >> If you can reply to that without mutilating it, without entering >> explicit CRs, and without making your own text too long, I'll be >> impressed. I think you *should* be allowed to reformat it, as long as >> you keep the indentation level, something like this: > > Done. As for explicit CRs, it's force of habit for me to hit return > at the end of each line, it comes from my beginings of using pine > which just scrolled over when your lines ran long. Ah, but then you're working around the problem. Most people who use these mailers let the "editor" do the line wrap for them, but it's too stupid to distinguish between what you enter and what was there before. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 23:11:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4F83114C8D for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:11:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 7945 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 07:11:17 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 7930 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 07:11:16 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 07:11:16 -0000 Message-ID: <37046D68.D4E8F68C@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 23:10:32 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brad Benson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000001be7b39$b40c2640$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net> <19990402162222.A413@lemis.com> <37046B4D.47BC1A7E@uswest.net> <19990402163727.C413@lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 23:01:33 -0800, Nocturne wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, that works, but it's a workaround, and a barely acceptable one > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at that. I've been corresponding with users of Microsoft platform > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailers (there, Terry!), and they continually run into trouble because > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're used to autowrap. > >> > >> If you can reply to that without mutilating it, without entering > >> explicit CRs, and without making your own text too long, I'll be > >> impressed. I think you *should* be allowed to reformat it, as long as > >> you keep the indentation level, something like this: > > > > Done. As for explicit CRs, it's force of habit for me to hit return > > at the end of each line, it comes from my beginings of using pine > > which just scrolled over when your lines ran long. > > Ah, but then you're working around the problem. Most people who use > these mailers let the "editor" do the line wrap for them, but it's too > stupid to distinguish between what you enter and what was there > before. But the work around came from a problem with a very common unix-based mailer, not Netscape, so that makes it okay, right? :-) -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 23:25: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48B7115056 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:24:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id QAA16530; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:54:35 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id QAA95384; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:54:34 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990402165434.D413@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 16:54:34 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Nocturne Cc: Brad Benson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000001be7b39$b40c2640$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net> <19990402162222.A413@lemis.com> <37046B4D.47BC1A7E@uswest.net> <19990402163727.C413@lemis.com> <37046D68.D4E8F68C@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <37046D68.D4E8F68C@uswest.net>; from Nocturne on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:10:32PM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 23:10:32 -0800, Nocturne wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 23:01:33 -0800, Nocturne wrote: >>> Greg Lehey wrote: >>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, that works, but it's a workaround, and a barely acceptable one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at that. I've been corresponding with users of Microsoft platform >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailers (there, Terry!), and they continually run into trouble because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're used to autowrap. >>>> >>>> If you can reply to that without mutilating it, without entering >>>> explicit CRs, and without making your own text too long, I'll be >>>> impressed. I think you *should* be allowed to reformat it, as long as >>>> you keep the indentation level, something like this: >>> >>> Done. As for explicit CRs, it's force of habit for me to hit return >>> at the end of each line, it comes from my beginings of using pine >>> which just scrolled over when your lines ran long. >> >> Ah, but then you're working around the problem. Most people who use >> these mailers let the "editor" do the line wrap for them, but it's too >> stupid to distinguish between what you enter and what was there >> before. > > But the work around came from a problem with a very common unix-based > mailer, not Netscape, so that makes it okay, right? :-) I don't understand. Where's the problem with a UNIX-based mailer? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 1 23:39:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7E0D515056 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 1999 23:39:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 27447 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 07:39:05 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 27423 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 07:39:05 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 07:39:05 -0000 Message-ID: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 23:38:20 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brad Benson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000001be7b39$b40c2640$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net> <19990402162222.A413@lemis.com> <37046B4D.47BC1A7E@uswest.net> <19990402163727.C413@lemis.com> <37046D68.D4E8F68C@uswest.net> <19990402165434.D413@lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: >On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 23:10:32 -0800, Nocturne wrote: >> Greg Lehey wrote: >>> On Thursday, 1 April 1999 at 23:01:33 -0800, Nocturne wrote: >>>> Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sure, that works, but it's a workaround, and a barely acceptable one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at that. I've been corresponding with users of Microsoft platform >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mailers (there, Terry!), and they continually run into trouble because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're used to autowrap. >>>>> >>>>> If you can reply to that without mutilating it, without entering >>>>> explicit CRs, and without making your own text too long, I'll be >>>>> impressed. I think you *should* be allowed to reformat it, as long as >>>>> you keep the indentation level, something like this: >>>> >>>> Done. As for explicit CRs, it's force of habit for me to hit return >>>> at the end of each line, it comes from my beginings of using pine >>>> which just scrolled over when your lines ran long. >>> >>> Ah, but then you're working around the problem. Most people who use >>> these mailers let the "editor" do the line wrap for them, but it's too >>> stupid to distinguish between what you enter and what was there >>> before. >> >> But the work around came from a problem with a very common unix-based >> mailer, not Netscape, so that makes it okay, right? :-) > >I don't understand. Where's the problem with a UNIX-based mailer? The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. IMNSHO, relying on a computer to have any semblance of intelligence is asking for trouble. Then again, trusting a Windows user to have any semblance of intelligence is foolish. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 0:49:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EA2614C3C for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:49:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA01314; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 00:49:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199904020849.AAA01314@implode.root.com> To: Nocturne Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeling old In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 01 Apr 1999 18:50:59 PST." <37043093.E1801A18@uswest.net> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 00:49:27 -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >For as long as I've been involved with computers, I've been told (in >essence) that only the young folks fresh out of college are capable of >writing great software. As if technological senility sets in by the >time you're 25. Then I see pictures of the core team and other well- >known members of the FreeBSD community and get confused. Then I see >all the young faces of the various groups in my area and begin to feel >old and even more confused. Does anyone really know the average age >of the core team and said peripheral contributors? I know the age >thing has been hashed endlessly, but each time the question has never >really been answered IMO. I'm 31. Jordan is a few years older. About 90% of the core team is in the 30-45 range. I think John Polstra is the oldest, but I don't know his exact age (somewhere in the mid 40s). I'd guess the average age of contributors is around 25-30 due to a large number of college aged people skewing the average downward a bit. I don't recall ever feeling technologically senile. :-) -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 2:33:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [208.138.36.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1375414C8C for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 02:33:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id CAA27516; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 02:33:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 02:33:07 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Nocturne Cc: Brad Benson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Message-ID: <19990402023307.G98992@001101.zer0.org> References: <000001be7cd4$b34f9240$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <37046B9E.6F8AF2FE@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <37046B9E.6F8AF2FE@uswest.net>; from Nocturne on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:02:54PM -0800 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:02:54PM -0800, Nocturne wrote: > Brad Benson wrote: > > > > I know there are problems with the Netscape mail program, but > > > are they only > > > > on the Windows version? Are these problems present in most GUI > > > based mailers? > > > > Mac, X-Windows, and such. > > The above is what happens when I forget to turn off line wrapping :-) No, the above is what happens when Brad uses Outlook, which can't format text correctly to save its life. Your lines were pretty long but less than 80 columns. A decent mailer can format quoted sections correctly even when the lines are lengthy. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Black holes were created mailto:gsutter@pobox.com when God divided by zero. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 2:37:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [208.138.36.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3759414C8C for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 02:37:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id CAA27597; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 02:36:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 02:36:47 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: Nocturne Cc: Greg Lehey , Brad Benson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Message-ID: <19990402023647.H98992@001101.zer0.org> References: <000001be7b39$b40c2640$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net> <19990402162222.A413@lemis.com> <37046B4D.47BC1A7E@uswest.net> <19990402163727.C413@lemis.com> <37046D68.D4E8F68C@uswest.net> <19990402165434.D413@lemis.com> <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net>; from Nocturne on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:38:20PM -0800 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:38:20PM -0800, Nocturne wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > >I don't understand. Where's the problem with a UNIX-based mailer? > > The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it > hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem > didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. It lets your text run long if you allow it to. When my mailer of choice, Mutt, invokes my editor of choice, vi, to edit a message, it uses the option "set wm=8", which sets a right-margin 8 characters from the right-hand side of the screen. My text gets wrapped automatically as I type. Your editor may vary. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 4:18: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34AE14C57 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 04:18:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA11955; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 04:17:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Chuck is cute In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 01 Apr 1999 18:37:39 GMT." <199904011837.LAA06585@usr08.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 04:17:41 -0800 Message-ID: <11953.923055461@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > As a technology, they discourage storageless browsing devices. Cry me a river. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 4:57:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from SICs_Messaging_System (unknown [194.209.172.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B92B214D10 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 04:57:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from msauder-news@siconline.ch) Received: from SIC-NWC-Message_Server by SICs_Messaging_System with Novell_GroupWise; Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:50:42 +0200 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.2 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 14:50:07 +0200 From: Sauder-News To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Antw: FreeBSD Counter Page Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org the counter page does not work.. i tried to register bu got this error: Internal Server Error The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was = unable to complete your request. Please contact the server administrator, admin@bafug.org and inform them = of the time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may = have caused the error. Apache/1.3.1 Server at www.bafug.org Port 80 not nice but i'll try later on... marcel sauder msauder@siconline.ch *************************************************** SIC NetzWerk Center Marcel Sauder CNE / CNI msauder@siconline.ch *************************************************** Tel. +41 52 720 5540 Fax +41 52 720 4403 http://www.siconline.ch *************************************************** Why use windows when there is a door? *************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 5:18:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AF12114D41 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 05:18:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 22958 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 13:18:14 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 22931 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 13:18:13 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 13:18:13 -0000 Message-ID: <3704C36C.2C1C28DE@uswest.net> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 05:17:32 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Brad Benson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000001be7cd4$b34f9240$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <37046B9E.6F8AF2FE@uswest.net> <19990402023307.G98992@001101.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:02:54PM -0800, Nocturne wrote: > > Brad Benson wrote: > > > > > I know there are problems with the Netscape mail program, but > > > > are they only > > > > > on the Windows version? Are these problems present in most GUI > > > > based mailers? > > > > > Mac, X-Windows, and such. > > > > The above is what happens when I forget to turn off line wrapping :-) > > No, the above is what happens when Brad uses Outlook, which can't format > text correctly to save its life. Your lines were pretty long but less > than 80 columns. A decent mailer can format quoted sections correctly > even when the lines are lengthy. Actually that is my fault. That's my quote that did that, just take a look at the previous messages. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 5:19:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B92514D11 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 05:19:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 23434 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 13:19:30 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 23406 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 13:19:29 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 13:19:29 -0000 Message-ID: <3704C3B8.FB562CEF@uswest.net> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 05:18:48 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Greg Lehey , Brad Benson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000001be7b39$b40c2640$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net> <19990402162222.A413@lemis.com> <37046B4D.47BC1A7E@uswest.net> <19990402163727.C413@lemis.com> <37046D68.D4E8F68C@uswest.net> <19990402165434.D413@lemis.com> <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> <19990402023647.H98992@001101.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:38:20PM -0800, Nocturne wrote: > > Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > > >I don't understand. Where's the problem with a UNIX-based mailer? > > > > The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it > > hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem > > didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. > > It lets your text run long if you allow it to. When my mailer of > choice, Mutt, invokes my editor of choice, vi, to edit a message, it > uses the option "set wm=8", which sets a right-margin 8 characters from > the right-hand side of the screen. My text gets wrapped automatically > as I type. Your editor may vary. Pine uses it's own editor, pico, to compose messages. It's very primative. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 5:25:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7FA0E15254 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 05:25:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 25880 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 13:25:11 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 25864 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 13:25:11 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 13:25:11 -0000 Message-ID: <3704C50D.D865460B@uswest.net> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 05:24:29 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeling old References: <199904020849.AAA01314@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman wrote: > > >For as long as I've been involved with computers, I've been told (in > >essence) that only the young folks fresh out of college are capable of > >writing great software. As if technological senility sets in by the > >time you're 25. Then I see pictures of the core team and other well- > >known members of the FreeBSD community and get confused. Then I see > >all the young faces of the various groups in my area and begin to feel > >old and even more confused. Does anyone really know the average age > >of the core team and said peripheral contributors? I know the age > >thing has been hashed endlessly, but each time the question has never > >really been answered IMO. > > I'm 31. Jordan is a few years older. About 90% of the core team is in the > 30-45 range. I think John Polstra is the oldest, but I don't know his exact > age (somewhere in the mid 40s). I'd guess the average age of contributors is > around 25-30 due to a large number of college aged people skewing the average > downward a bit. > I don't recall ever feeling technologically senile. :-) Oh good, I don't feel so old anymore. I do have one more question, though: Is there some rule stating that one must sport face-fur? I don't think I've ever seen such a concentration of human whiskers in my life. :-) -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 6: 6:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 536D114E1A for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 06:06:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-034.thuntek.net [207.66.52.34]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA25343; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 07:06:27 -0700 (MST) Message-ID: <3704CE57.86BB6E8B@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 07:04:07 -0700 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nocturne Cc: dg@root.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Feeling old References: <199904020849.AAA01314@implode.root.com> <3704C50D.D865460B@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nocturne wrote: > > David Greenman wrote: > > > > >For as long as I've been involved with computers, I've been told (in > > >essence) that only the young folks fresh out of college are capable of > > >writing great software. As if technological senility sets in by the > > >time you're 25. Then I see pictures of the core team and other well- > > >known members of the FreeBSD community and get confused. Then I see > > >all the young faces of the various groups in my area and begin to feel > > >old and even more confused. Does anyone really know the average age > > >of the core team and said peripheral contributors? I know the age > > >thing has been hashed endlessly, but each time the question has never > > >really been answered IMO. > > > > I'm 31. Jordan is a few years older. About 90% of the core team is in the > > 30-45 range. I think John Polstra is the oldest, but I don't know his exact > > age (somewhere in the mid 40s). I'd guess the average age of contributors is > > around 25-30 due to a large number of college aged people skewing the average > > downward a bit. > > I don't recall ever feeling technologically senile. :-) > > Oh good, I don't feel so old anymore. I do have one more question, > though: Is there some rule stating that one must sport face-fur? I > don't think I've ever seen such a concentration of human whiskers in > my life. :-) > No, but one source has it that if you don't, you get doused with special hair-restorer until you have an afro... Which is worse??? -- Don Wilde "clean shaven" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 6:16:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9696614CE5 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 06:16:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA04079; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:15:32 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:15:32 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Mike Tancsa Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Nato Web's site 8) In-Reply-To: <3704296d.4225825605@mail.sentex.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Mike Tancsa wrote: [snip] > > What really gets me is the statement > > "Our people can use and administer Windows NT [-based] systems with very > little training." > > Why is it only in the IT realm, that people think like this > > "I know how to point and click the mouse in Windows. System Administration > and Network Administration just means pointing and clicking. Therefore I > am a Network Administrator."... Yeah, point and click your way to > oblivion.... > > Its as if understanding what you are pointing and clicking on does not > matter. No one would ever think "I know how to point and click the mouse > in Windows. AccPac is a Windows program. I can point and click in AccPac. > Therefore I am an Accountant"... > > > Also, the C2 level security stuff... I thought that was only for a stand > alone unit, and not in a networked environment. It's way worser than that. It is WinNT 3.51 that has ever gotten C2. WinNT 4.0 has not even been subjected to evaluation... > > ---Mike > Mike Tancsa (mdtancsa@sentex.net) > Sentex Communications Corp, > Waterloo, Ontario, Canada > There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 6:24: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FDB514C7F for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 06:23:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 57E2D3FD4; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:23:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4CF0F99F1; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:23:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:23:42 -0500 (EST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Nocturne Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) In-Reply-To: <199904021321.IAA14799@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Nocturne wrote: :Pine uses it's own editor, pico, to compose messages. It's very :primative. Pine does not have to use pico. It will use whatever editor you prefer. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 9:42:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0919814CA4 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 09:42:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id TAA25069 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 19:41:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10T6Mr-000WyZC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Fri, 2 Apr 1999 18:00:25 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Chuck is cute Date: 2 Apr 1999 18:00:22 +0200 Message-ID: <7e2pim$11m$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <199904011837.LAA06585@usr08.primenet.com> <11953.923055461@zippy.cdrom.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > As a technology, they discourage storageless browsing devices. > > Cry me a river. Yes, everybody runs a PC with MS-Windows 95/98 and Internet Explorer. Considering anything else is just a waste. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de >H Deutsche Transhumanismus-Mailingliste echo 'subscribe trans-de' | mail majordomo@lists.rhein-neckar.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 12:14:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 664B614D52 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:14:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 503 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 20:14:12 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 480 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 20:14:11 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 20:14:11 -0000 Message-ID: <370524EA.BC2B67D7@uswest.net> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 12:13:30 -0800 From: Nocturne Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jamie Bowden Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie Bowden wrote: > On Fri, 2 Apr 1999, Nocturne wrote: > > :Pine uses it's own editor, pico, to compose messages. It's very > :primative. > > Pine does not have to use pico. It will use whatever editor you prefer. You know you're right, so let me rephrase: Pine used pico because that's the only editor the admin on industrial would let us have. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 12:43:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9375614C9C for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:43:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA13438; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 12:43:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Chuck is cute In-reply-to: Your message of "02 Apr 1999 18:00:22 +0200." <7e2pim$11m$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 12:43:22 -0800 Message-ID: <13436.923085802@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yes, everybody runs a PC with MS-Windows 95/98 and Internet Explorer. > Considering anything else is just a waste. I think you misunderstand my essential point - trying to single-handedly take on the issue of cookies is more than I or any other FreeBSD person has time to do, and the implication of Terry's message is (as usual) that Somebody Should Do Something to prevent yet another technological injustice to be perpetrated against those poor, undefended storageless browser users. It's simply not our problem and Terry's points, like so many he chooses to make here, are of no substantial value whatsoever. He should be complaining in the various W2C forums or wherever people who actually determine the shape of the Internet's future web technologies, not in freebsd-chat. We're OS vendors and whether people choose to use cookies or not in their browsers is not and should not be our problem - we have more than enough which are uniquely our own to fix already. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 13:47:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83DAA14E32 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 13:47:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id HAA21237; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 07:16:56 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id HAA01162; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 07:16:54 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990403071653.G413@lemis.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 07:16:53 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Nocturne , Gregory Sutter Cc: Brad Benson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <000001be7b39$b40c2640$6400a8c0@BillyJoeBob> <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net> <19990402162222.A413@lemis.com> <37046B4D.47BC1A7E@uswest.net> <19990402163727.C413@lemis.com> <37046D68.D4E8F68C@uswest.net> <19990402165434.D413@lemis.com> <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> <19990402023647.H98992@001101.zer0.org> <3704C3B8.FB562CEF@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <3704C3B8.FB562CEF@uswest.net>; from Nocturne on Fri, Apr 02, 1999 at 05:18:48AM -0800 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 2 April 1999 at 5:18:48 -0800, Nocturne wrote: > Gregory Sutter wrote: >> >> On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:38:20PM -0800, Nocturne wrote: >>> Greg Lehey wrote: >>>> >>>> I don't understand. Where's the problem with a UNIX-based mailer? >>> >>> The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it >>> hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem >>> didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. >> >> It lets your text run long if you allow it to. When my mailer of >> choice, Mutt, invokes my editor of choice, vi, to edit a message, it >> uses the option "set wm=8", which sets a right-margin 8 characters from >> the right-hand side of the screen. My text gets wrapped automatically >> as I type. Your editor may vary. > > Pine uses it's own editor, pico, to compose messages. It's very > primative. It doesn't force you to. You can use an external editor if you want. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 2 15:48:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 49DE61519B for ; Fri, 2 Apr 1999 15:48:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 11291 invoked by alias); 2 Apr 1999 23:47:49 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 11268 invoked by uid 0); 2 Apr 1999 23:47:48 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 2 Apr 1999 23:47:48 -0000 Message-ID: <370556FA.3BCBE866@uswest.net> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 1999 15:47:06 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: The Classiest Man Alive Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The Window Manager Wars References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [this is long overdue to be moved to -chat] The Classiest Man Alive wrote: >On Thu, 1 Apr 1999, Nocturne wrote: >: You kids today with yer fancy KDE. Back in my day we had Openlook and >: we was thankful! Now mind you I had to walk barefoot and butt-nekid >: through 50 miles of .rc's to use it, but we was happy! :-) > >I agree completely. Back in the day, people ran twm not because it was >pretty, but because it was the only thing that worked on the 2-4 MB system >that you had. Nowadays it's cheaper to buy another 32 MB of RAM to run >your favorite window manager than it is to learn to edit .rc files. > >Incidentally, I still like the fvwm family. They're graphically >attractive, highly configurable, and (most importantly, IMO) lightweight. >Sure, they went a little awry with that whole fvwm95 thing, but other than >that, it's a solid choice as a WM. I like the "older" WMs for just those reasons, I've got a server that runs X on diskless terminals, there would be no way I could run (or afford) it if they used something as huge as KDE. It's almost getting to the point where your choice of window manager is a political statement. At least it seems that way. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 2:11:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [208.138.36.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B7DE14D4C; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 02:11:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id CAA51218; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 02:09:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 02:09:28 -0800 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: dwilde1@thuntek.net, nathan@rtfm.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: tattoos? Message-ID: <19990403020928.B51071@001101.zer0.org> References: <19990328191602.A87029@rtfm.net> <19990328220054.B45528@001101.zer0.org> <36FF9F4F.EC102A44@thuntek.net> <19990329181813.0CD2214EF1@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990329181813.0CD2214EF1@hub.freebsd.org>; from Jonathan M. Bresler on Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 10:18:13AM -0800 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Mar 29, 1999 at 10:18:13AM -0800, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > On Sun, Mar 28, 1999 at 07:16:02PM -0500, Nathan Dorfman wrote: > > > > http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~vsop/tattoos.html > > > so now my job includes getting the hardheads to wear Beastie instead of > > FatButt? ;-) > > should be a lot easier to get hardtail riders wearing a beastie > tattoo that a fatbutt. ;) This hardtail rider is considering it. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Failing sardine factory cans employees! mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 2:54:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CF8E14E84 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 02:54:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from suzy (modem18.masternet.it [194.184.65.28]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id KAA10016 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 10:52:26 GMT (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990403124424.00a501a0@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.4 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 12:53:29 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: pop & sendmail and more Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello everybody... Perhaps the following is a silly question... if yes consider this message only to wish everyone an Happy Easter...:-) The silly question is : Is there a pop3d/imapd that can read the /etc/mail/virtualusertable to allow user to get their mail with their pop account and not with their real account ? I.e Virtual domain : virtual.com Real box: box.real.com real account1 : user1@real.com virtual account : virtualuser@virtual.com When user1 send mail can obviusly send it as virtualuser@virtual.com (sendmail permitting), but when it have to get it he has to used user1@real.com Now what I looking for is a patch/hack or an existing pop3d/imapd that can use the virtualtable to associate the account with the username... I really don't know if it exist and if it can be possible, but I ask here to be sure of it :-) Ok... I understand ... Happy Easter to everybody :-) Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 13:16:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FF2514BD6 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 13:16:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA27540; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 15:29:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd027528; Sat Apr 3 15:28:58 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA11040; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:14:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904032114.OAA11040@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars To: toor@dyson.iquest.net (John S. Dyson) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:14:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dyson@iquest.net, hamellr@dsinw.com, unknown@riverstyx.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199904010647.BAA19102@dyson.iquest.net> from "John S. Dyson" at Apr 1, 99 01:47:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Any putative efficiency penalties (granting their existance for the sake > > of discussion) would be paid only by the stacking layers themselves, and > > as it currently doesn't work, you aren't going to be paying an efficiency > > penalty for anything you currently use. > > > > So efficiency is a NULL argument. > > It cannot be a NULL argument, because continual polishing the t*rd isn't > really solving the problem. And Occam's Razor implies that "anything that works is better than anything that doesn't". As long as people cling to an "evolutionary, not revolutionary" mentality to keep themselves within thei comfort zone, you are going to be able to address architectural modifications until after you have a working architecture to modify. What you may view as "polishing the turd" is in fact the minimal set of work necessary to get to a point where evolution is possible. I personally prefer revolution, since it moves things ahead a hell of a lot faster, but I'm not in charge. > > IF VM alias objects are to be introduced (and that's a big mother "if", > > in my opinion), it should only be done *after* it is proven, using > > formal analysis methods, that unintentional aliases have been rendered > > impossible. > > The current VM backing scheme is correct and needs only minor extension. > In fact, the VM backing is natural (e.g. copy on write), whilst the > current VFS layering doesn't handle the needed semantics for coherency > without lots of traversal of the layers. I don't buy this traversal argument, and I don't buy the coherency argument. VFS stacking layers are translational, functional, or semantic. The semantic and functional layers don't need local cache, and can instead refer to the underlying layers instead. These two classes make up the *vast* majority of what you would ever want to do with VFS stacking. The translational layers need local cache. For things like a cryptographic or compressing FS, the local cache only *correlates* to, not replicates the contents of, the underlying layer. This means that the coherency issue is one of synchronization, and can not be eliminated by hand waving or by fiat. This leaves the small subset of translational layers in which the translations is (A) linear, (B) scoped to page-sized objects, and (C) scoped to page aligned boundaries (e.g., it leaves out useful linear translations such as an FS that represents the tracks on audio CD's as files). As far as I can tell, this set contains the single element "MFS backed by a vnode object as swap store". > Bottom line, the VM backing already DOES work, or nothing in the system > would work. Bottom line: FreeBSD machines in the field are expercing a statistically rare type of file corruption that has common characteristics, and FreeBSD versions includinging and prior to FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE (*not* -STABLE) did not experience this corruption. Below the bottom line: It ain't gremlins, and it ain't pilot error on factory sealed units that don't offer shell access of any kind. > > The only way I see clear for this to happen is if they don't both > > exist in the code at the same time. > > Yep, get rid of the unintentional VFS layering bugs, by taking advantage > of the already needed VM layering for any kind of reasonable VM behavior. I'm referring to the existing VM bugs needing resolution before new VM bugs are (potentially) introduced by design changes. > That VM stuff is there anyway, so why muck it up with a parallel, and > semantically incorrect (or inefficient) structure? The VM layering already > has the needed mechanisms for handling shared (and modified) memory > "repositories." Files do not exist merely to serve the VM system. Files have abstract existance as modelled objects in user programs and ANSI C. Relatively, the VM has exposure as "the thing that makes mmap and sbrk work". Maybe there should be an entirely new, VM centric programming paradigm, but until one is ratified by an IEEE committee and given a POSIX ID number, I won't hold my breath. > By constraining onself to the current VFS layering, it simply complicates > the system with two different kinds of layering schemes. Don't forget > that sometimes generalization of a problem, simplifies it -- and the > VFS scheme is TOO conventionally-file oriented, and not very oriented > towards data. You mean like simultaneously having pty's, sockets, pipes, and FIFO's complicates things? Or like having CAM layering complicates things? I don't proget about problem generalization, but you should not forget that the major thorns in the VFS side are the *lack* of generalization in the BSD4.4 kernel with regard to file descriptor objects mapping to vnodes. > The "file" abstraction is too specific. I admit that the VM schemes > need to be better documented for those who haven't read the MACH > (and the new deamon book) information, but once the underlying principles > are understood, it is clear that files are a paradigm that are too > focused towards one kind of thinking. I understand that everyone's baby is the central and most important point of having a kernel in the first place. For some people, that's a realtime scheduler, and everything should be deterministic. For me, I'd at least like to move forward on the VFS front without having to reimplement everything in such a way as is most convenient for the VM system. I'm personally more concerned with dealing with the VM issues that exist, and being able to leverage VFS work taking place on other platforms. The second most important thing to me in this context is portability of VFS code between operating systems platforms, with the first being that the VFS code actually *work* on one or more platforms in the first place so that VFS actually takes place somewhere (can't leverage something without a fulcrum and a lever). > Such new documentation would mostly > be a repeat of already available materials anyway. But it would be specific, and free of all irrelevent and extraneous information that would get in the way of someone attempting to move forward while taking the constraints of the past into account. > As soon as a "file" is abstracted to "memory objects", then things become > easier. For people who lioke to treat everything as a memory object. Too bad user space code has to deal with files. > A memory object can reside anywhere, and have all kinds of > inheritance attributes, and interrelations. (A file can also, but the > scheme as presented in 4.4BSD VFS doesn't do so -- and to expand the > notion of file to what I call "memory objects", changes the current > layering code so severely as to make it better to almost start over.) I think inheritance of attributes is inherently evil. I prefer inheritance of semantics. If you inherit attributes, there is no accessor or mutator functions which are capable of being hooked to provide other interesting interpositions and notifications. It is more useful to me, writing a graphical file manager, for example, to be able to ask for notification when a directory changes, than it is for my MFS to be ten times instead of six times faster than the current MFS. > The Heidemann framework is a good document on the needed semantics > from a file standpoint, but addresses weakly the issues of the memory > objects (be they in memory, on disk, or across a network.) That's because a memory object is a cached copy of data from somewhere else. > With correct > protocols, the "memory object" scheme actually does what the programmer > expects. The current VFS layering framework only very weakly handle the > issues of the "data containers" or "memory objects" themselves. The > non-bidirectional nature of the current layering also forgets the > forward movement of OS design. (Of course, if every I/O call or access > to memory traverses the entire chain, then the current framework might work.) That's ridiculous. One of the design tenets, which Rosenthal didn't address in his vesrion of vnode stacking, is that null layers may be collapsed out. The current implementation is suffering in this regard *only* because there are default VOPs that are actually expected to do something other than return "not implemented". This is an error because of the case where you add a new VOP, and there is no longer a default VOP for every VOP: it assumes you recompile, then reinstance, everything. This flies in the face of the documented, intended, architecture. > The memory oriented approaches eliminate (or at least handle) the aliasing > and local caching issues correctly. This is really, really irrelevent. It assumes that all but a tiny fraction of all possible file systems will be using local media. If you don't solve the whole caching issue, you haven't solved the caching issue. The correct place for a coherency proptocol is in a seperate module that can, if need be, extended to encompass coherency between disparately located cache instances and/or clusters of such instances. This is obvious from the Sarnoff work in that regard. Most of you cache problems are stemming from an assumption that copies of the pages are hung off of multiple vnodes in a stack, and that this occurs because vnodes are vm_object_t containers. This is wrong from three perspecives: 1) You should *ask* the FS what the correct vm_object_t is, instead of dereferencing it out of a vnode directly. 2) Not all vnodes represent storage objects; many of them are containers for semantics, not data. 3) Those which do contain data *still* don't necessarily represent storage objects, but instead, translations of storage objects. It's *wrong* to turn a vnode into an alias for a vm_object_t. > The original 4.4/2 framework was so bad, > that even local mmaped objects are only weakly coherent (actually not even > that), let alone any other caching in the pipeline. With the memory > schemes, the problem solves itself (with only minor consideration for the > additional expected file semantics.) It is only the proper implementation > of VM coherency that the current code works local to a given vnode. It > is only a small VM extension, and definition for use, to make an entire > layered scheme work. I'll believe this when msync(2) becomes #define msync(x,y,z) /* nothing*/. > By reworking the entire VFS layering scheme (still looking somewhat > like the current implementation, but properly abstracted) the entire > solution (instead of a hack solution) can be made available. I agree that the current code needs changes. I just don't think it's a good idea to trade one experiment that doesn't work because the effort hasn't been expended to put in the fixes for another experiment that still not guaranteed to work, and still doesn't have the effort behind it. I believe the correct approach is to stabilize the existing code in line with it's original design document. > Remember, both FILE and MEMORY data needs to be presented to the user, and > FILE data is a narrow picture of memory. MEMORY can easily be made more > specific by presenting it as a file -- however expanding the semantics of > a file to memory is more complex (especially with sharing.) When a > conversion to MEMORY from FILE and back again, has to be done at every > layer, then a scheme is going to be very inefficient or complex. If the > abstraction is kept as memory at each layer, then complexities are lessened. First off, file data is a hell of a lot more prevalent than memory data. Everything on the entire net can be represented as file data, and even if you made a heroic effort, you simply don't have the bits to represent it as memory. Memory data must be viewed as cached copies of file data, with the potential that there is no file data backing a particular object (in other words, it's a cached copy of very volatile file data, and only the cached copy is useful). Second, as pointed out above, you only have to do the conversion at layers where you imply a relationship between a vnode (file data) and a vm_object_t (memory data). This relationship need not be implied *everywhere*; it need only be implied for: 1) The terminal backing vnode itself 2) Translational layers, where the translational layer vnode itself contains a cached version of the translated data from the terminal backing object (Semantic layers, obviously, don't need vm_object_t's at all, since they don't have persistant data). In the first case, there's not a coherency issue because there's no "ghosts". In the second case, there's a coherency issue, but it's an issue that *must* be handled by layer itself, since it contains the code that understands the translation process (and its reverse, if any). This means that if you want to implement a cryptographic or a compressing FS, *you have no choice* but to implement the code for VOP_{GET|PUT}PAGES, and let the VFS layer be responsible for the semantics. The same goes for VFS layers like the NFS client. The problems *only* occur when you *insist* that a non-terminal vnode have a vm_object_t. It is this insistance which is flawed, not the architecture that can't serve this insistance. > Since each layer might have to present a memory image (either as caching > or mmap), then with a file representation, each layer has to do the "hard" > conversion (given the anachronisitic file-only abstraction.) There is NO cost > in keeping the abstraction as memory as long as possible in the chain. If > a conversion is needed at machine boundaries, it might be possible to > avoid the file abstraction entirely, and create a (MEMORY <--> SOCKET) > protocol directly. (It might not be needed to create and use a more complex > (MEMORY <--> NFS <--> SOCKET) thing.) This is an assumption that I believe has very little basis: that most intermediate VFS stacking layers will have exposure in the filesystem namespace. You would *not* want this for cryptographic, ACL, file forking, auditing, monitoring, activating, event generating, quota enforcing, versioning, etc., etc. layers for VFS's underneath them. It would totally defeat their utility. The only cases where I can see this being useful are union, transparent, overlay, whiteout, and similar situations. These situations are relatively unique for several reasons: o They generally apply to multiple exposure of *the same layer* in different places in the namespace, and thus there is no cache coherency issues. o Where they *do* expose both the VFS and the VFS it is stacked upon to the namespace, the stacked VFS is a hybrid semantic and translational VFS layer. The interesting thing to note about hybrids is that they store their data using either structural or namespace escapes. In either case, their data objects are effectively "exclusive use". It would be a trivial extension to allow an upper layer to tell a lower layer to "guard these objects from change by anyone but me". Do I want to rewrite the VFS layering so that the bottom end is not an interface to the VM system at all, but instead a VFS representation of a variable granularity block store, which itself interfaces to the VM on behalf of all other VFS layers? Yes. Do I *need* to do this? For some applications, it'd be damn convenient to have the VFS architecture be symmertic for *all* VFS's, but it's not a requirement to make the current architecture useful. > > > Why do you put words in my mouth about doubling inode size? Straw man... > > > > You are mentioning ACL's. The most current FS ACL work is being done > > in NetBSD (not FreeBSD). I thought you were referencing a modern > > research project when you referenced ACL's. My mistake. > > Yep... By assuming what I have been thinking about, it shows that arguments > about such might be misguided. Sorry. I was recently approached about the work. I should have looked for zebras when I heard the ACL hoofbeats. ;-). > > Fie. You are the one who originally posted about seeing years of work > > frittered away. I am not prepared to repeat that journey; it is a fool's > > quest. > > Fallacious argument -- you aren't the author of the original code or > those changes are you? The author of the code apparently accepted the > changes. (In fact, the changes were also compatible with other users > and developers on the codebase.) I'm the author of at least two instances of the fixes that resolve the VFS stacking issues, both of which were "frittered away". [ ... on storing 64 bits of seconds for ctime, atime, and mtime ... ] > I suggest coming up with a solution then. Of course, I suggest that > UFS/ODS2 needs to be thought through. By taking micro pot-shots doesn't > really solve the problem (or the other problems that needed to be solved > in the shorter term.) Here's a soloution: 1) Back out the use of those fields for nanoseconds 2) Zero the coopted fields. This is the painful part, but you can use a bit in fs_unused_1 if you have to, or you could be truly sneaky and use inode 1. My preference would be adding an fs_flag value. However it's done, pennance for the sin must be paid. 3) Take a spare field for nanoseconds for *just* mtime 4) Modify make to look there instead of the mtime element of the coopted fields 5) Modify the quota code to put in a header containing a magic number and a version number in the frigging file so that we can tell the difference between old and new files at mount time. 6) Make time_t an int64_t instead of an int32_t in the new file format, and eat the performance hit with the old file format. 7) While you are at it, remove the 32 bit limitation on the block count. 8) Add an option to quota(1) to upgrade the file. 9) Know in your heart of hearts that quotas should be implemented as a VFS stacking layer using a namespace override so that quotas can work on any filesystem, not just UFS. 10) Find someone willing to commit the code before you write it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 13:40:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42AB114DBD for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 13:40:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA03590; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:38:34 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd003575; Sat Apr 3 14:38:25 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12005; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:38:24 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904032138.OAA12005@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) To: dpilgrim@uswest.net (Nocturne) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:38:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <370465AC.95322011@uswest.net> from "Nocturne" at Apr 1, 99 10:37:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This message is sent using Netscape Messenger v4.51. Do you see any > problems with the formatting? Yes, there isn't a folder browser to the left of the messages like there was in the good old days, so you can't drag messages to folders without a lot of work and window flipping. You have to use this obnoxious right button submenu way down at the bottom of the right button menu below all of these stupid things that you would rarely ever do with a message, like add it to your address book. I guess you could have a reason for adding someone to your address book... maybe so that you can never send mail to a real list or alias with that name that exists on your SMTP server without getting the address book entry instead because you were a moron. Or maybe because you don't have an LDAP server, and they don't support IMSP or LDAP directory entry addition for server-side address books. Oh, you meant formatting problems with your message... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 13:43:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C17D14DFD for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 13:43:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA04122; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:41:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd004115; Sat Apr 3 14:41:43 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12082; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:41:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) To: dpilgrim@uswest.net (Nocturne) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:41:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: grog@lemis.com, bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> from "Nocturne" at Apr 1, 99 11:38:20 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it > hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem > didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. :set wrapmargin=72 Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 13:49:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3310D14EAA for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 13:49:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA15775; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:47:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd015758; Sat Apr 3 14:47:17 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12254; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:47:15 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904032147.OAA12254@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Chuck is cute To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:47:15 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <11953.923055461@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 2, 99 04:17:41 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > As a technology, they discourage storageless browsing devices. > > Cry me a river. Oh. My. You really got me that time. You showed me. Yessiree. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 14: 1:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F34014BCC for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:01:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA06555; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 16:14:19 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd006544; Sat Apr 3 16:14:14 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA12667; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:59:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904032159.OAA12667@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Chuck is cute To: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:59:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <7e2pim$11m$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> from "Christian Weisgerber" at Apr 2, 99 06:00:22 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > As a technology, they discourage storageless browsing devices. > > > > Cry me a river. > > Yes, everybody runs a PC with MS-Windows 95/98 and Internet Explorer. > Considering anything else is just a waste. Yes. Anything which would get access technology into economically depressed regions at the price of not sending license fees to Redmond should be fought tooth and nail as damaging to innovation. $30-$50 devices are especially damaging to the Internet, as they would let all the riff-raff in to bother all us AOL users by seeking to use it as a tool in resolving their immediate mortal needs, like increasing crop yields beyond subsistance levels, taking all of the bandwidth away from more useful things like 20Mb dancing baby AVI and other such socially redeeming stuff. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 14:43:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C23014E5A for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 14:43:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id PAA18508; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 15:41:07 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd018493; Sat Apr 3 15:41:04 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA14402; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 15:41:04 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904032241.PAA14402@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: pop & sendmail and more To: gmarco@giovannelli.it (Gianmarco Giovannelli) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 22:41:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990403124424.00a501a0@194.184.65.4> from "Gianmarco Giovannelli" at Apr 3, 99 12:53:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The silly question is : Is there a pop3d/imapd that can read the > /etc/mail/virtualusertable to allow user to get their mail with their pop > account and not with their real account ? > > I.e > > Virtual domain : virtual.com > Real box: box.real.com > > real account1 : user1@real.com virtual account : virtualuser@virtual.com > > When user1 send mail can obviusly send it as virtualuser@virtual.com > (sendmail permitting), but when it have to get it he has to used > user1@real.com > Now what I looking for is a patch/hack or an existing pop3d/imapd that can > use the virtualtable to associate the account with the username... The problem here is the authentication database. You probably have the authentication database tied to the real UNIX password file, instead of a seperate authentication database. It's rather trivial to retarget the Cyrus and Qualcomm server code to use a different authentication database. You can also do it with the University of Washington code, but it's a bit harder. The main point is: you *can't* use the UNIX password database if you want to support POP3 APOP, anyway, so if you support this, you are already have a database in which you can create your virtual users. This is because the server has to know the cleartext of the shared secret in order to MD5 it with the generated timestamp to match the client software's hash. So my suggestion is to create the virtual user in your alternate authentication database, instead of relying on the virtuser table contents (where would you store the password? There's no field for a password in the virtusertable!). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 15:19:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E447E14D42 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 15:19:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA21882; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 15:16:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Chuck is cute In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 03 Apr 1999 21:47:15 GMT." <199904032147.OAA12254@usr04.primenet.com> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 15:16:49 -0800 Message-ID: <21880.923181409@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Your kung-fu is simply no good. Who's your master? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 16:53: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7D5A14EE2 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 16:53:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA19162; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 18:50:37 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 18:50:37 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nocturne , grog@lemis.com, bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Message-ID: <19990403185037.A12711@futuresouth.com> References: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 09:41:42PM +0000 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 09:41:42PM +0000, a little birdie told me that Terry Lambert remarked > > The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it > > hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem > > didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. > > :set wrapmargin=72 ITYM :set wraplen=72 (I use 73, it's prime, and therefor intrinsically better) --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 17:27: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A87914BDB for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:27:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA25946; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:55:02 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA04263; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:55:01 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:55:01 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Terry Lambert Cc: Nocturne , bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com> <19990403185037.A12711@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990403185037.A12711@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 06:50:37PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 3 April 1999 at 18:50:37 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 09:41:42PM +0000, a little birdie told me > that Terry Lambert remarked >>> The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it >>> hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem >>> didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. >> >> :set wrapmargin=72 > > ITYM > :set wraplen=72 > (I use 73, it's prime, and therefor intrinsically better) JOOI, how do you reformat a paragraph with vi? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 17:38:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D643914DE9 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:38:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA21022; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 19:36:19 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 19:36:18 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Greg Lehey Cc: Terry Lambert , Nocturne , bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Message-ID: <19990403193618.C12711@futuresouth.com> References: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com> <19990403185037.A12711@futuresouth.com> <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 10:55:01AM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 10:55:01AM +0930, a little birdie told me that Greg Lehey remarked > On Saturday, 3 April 1999 at 18:50:37 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > > > ITYM > > :set wraplen=72 > > (I use 73, it's prime, and therefor intrinsically better) > > JOOI, how do you reformat a paragraph with vi? Personally, I don't. I've never had a need too, since relatively little of my typing is in paragraphical format (read: code). A guy I work with does it with a map of some control key to fmt -someoptions (which I played with once, but could never get to work BTW). --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 17:58:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EF73614BDB for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:58:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 4947 invoked by alias); 4 Apr 1999 01:56:17 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 4914 invoked by uid 0); 4 Apr 1999 01:56:16 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 4 Apr 1999 01:56:16 -0000 Message-ID: <3706C68A.1E5AD037@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 17:55:22 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: grog@lemis.com, bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it > > hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem > > didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. > > :set wrapmargin=72 Ah, yes. I know that, now. Back when I was using pine, I was just a dumb 10-year-old kid who thought "Yoo-Nicks" and e-mail were the coolest things ever. At the time, hitting enter at the end of every line was a small price to pay for such priveledges as electronic communication, the habit just stuck. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 17:59:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from k6n1.znh.org (unknown [207.109.235.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F49714BDB for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 17:58:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from zach@uffdaonline.net) Received: (from zach@localhost) by k6n1.znh.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA59296; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 01:50:29 GMT (envelope-from zach) Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 19:50:29 -0600 From: Zach Heilig To: Terry Lambert Cc: Nocturne , grog@lemis.com, bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Message-ID: <19990403195028.A31656@k6n1.znh.org> References: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 09:41:42PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 09:41:42PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it > > hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem > > didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. > > :set wrapmargin=72 You probably meant :set wrapmargin=8 (it's measured from the right side of the screen) -- Zach Heilig To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 18: 1:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0063314BDB for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 18:01:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 7742 invoked by alias); 4 Apr 1999 01:59:20 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 7713 invoked by uid 0); 4 Apr 1999 01:59:19 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 4 Apr 1999 01:59:19 -0000 Message-ID: <3706C742.6905F80C@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 17:58:26 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <199904032138.OAA12005@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > This message is sent using Netscape Messenger v4.51. Do you see any > > problems with the formatting? > > Yes, there isn't a folder browser to the left of the messages like > there was in the good old days, so you can't drag messages to folders > without a lot of work and window flipping. You have to use this > obnoxious right button submenu way down at the bottom of the right > button menu below all of these stupid things that you would rarely > ever do with a message, like add it to your address book. I guess > you could have a reason for adding someone to your address book... > maybe so that you can never send mail to a real list or alias with > that name that exists on your SMTP server without getting the address > book entry instead because you were a moron. Or maybe because you > don't have an LDAP server, and they don't support IMSP or LDAP > directory entry addition for server-side address books. You're referring to Netscape 4.0x. Netscape 4.5x brought back the folder browser side bar and has support for IMAP and LDAP. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 19:41:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40A6214D27 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 19:41:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA14941; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:54:03 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd014908; Sat Apr 3 21:53:53 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA01208; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:39:05 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904040339.UAA01208@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Chuck is cute To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 03:39:05 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <21880.923181409@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 3, 99 03:16:49 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Your kung-fu is simply no good. Who's your master? > Your Ferocious Tiger style is no match for my Cowering Piglet! Give up now! Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 19:58:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1CEC14BE6 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 19:58:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA20333; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:56:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd020317; Sat Apr 3 20:56:53 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA01748; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:56:51 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904040356.UAA01748@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 03:56:51 +0000 (GMT) Cc: fullermd@futuresouth.com, tlambert@primenet.com, dpilgrim@uswest.net, bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Apr 4, 99 10:55:01 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >>> The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it > >>> hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem > >>> didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. > >> > >> :set wrapmargin=72 > > > > ITYM > > :set wraplen=72 > > (I use 73, it's prime, and therefor intrinsically better) > > JOOI, how do you reformat a paragraph with vi? !}fmt^M Will reformat from the cursor position to the end of the paragraph. If you care about quoting, write a script, or map a key, instead. Another common trick is to use abbreviation expansion in your .exrc: ab teh the ab cutsomer customer ab heirarchy hierarchy ab JOOI What the heck is this supposed to mean? Etc. See the VI FAQ for quoted text reformatting macros: http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/editor-faq/vi/part2/faq.html Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 20: 0:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E47414BE6 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:00:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22273; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:58:35 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd022264; Sat Apr 3 20:58:29 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id UAA01822; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:58:28 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904040358.UAA01822@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) To: zach@uffdaonline.net (Zach Heilig) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 03:58:28 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, dpilgrim@uswest.net, grog@lemis.com, bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19990403195028.A31656@k6n1.znh.org> from "Zach Heilig" at Apr 3, 99 07:50:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it > > > hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem > > > didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. > > > > :set wrapmargin=72 > > You probably meant > > :set wrapmargin=8 > > (it's measured from the right side of the screen) No, I neant for him to try it. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 20: 3:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEAE814BE6 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:03:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr08.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA00363; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:01:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr08.primenet.com(206.165.6.208) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd000344; Sat Apr 3 21:01:35 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr08.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id VAA01984; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 21:01:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904040401.VAA01984@usr08.primenet.com> Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) To: dpilgrim@uswest.net (Darren Pilgrim) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 04:01:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3706C742.6905F80C@uswest.net> from "Darren Pilgrim" at Apr 3, 99 05:58:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > You're referring to Netscape 4.0x. Netscape 4.5x brought back the > folder browser side bar and has support for IMAP and LDAP. Well I'll be horn-swoggled, you're right! Usually when some makes a UI blunder, they don't ever fix it. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 20:31:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D5DAA14DC5 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:31:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 7639 invoked by alias); 4 Apr 1999 04:29:25 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 7579 invoked by uid 0); 4 Apr 1999 04:29:24 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 4 Apr 1999 04:29:24 -0000 Message-ID: <3706EA6F.CEFD296D@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 20:28:32 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Zach Heilig , grog@lemis.com, bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <199904040358.UAA01822@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > > > > The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it > > > > hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem > > > > didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. > > > > > > :set wrapmargin=72 > > > > You probably meant > > > > :set wrapmargin=8 > > > > (it's measured from the right side of the screen) > > No, I neant for him to try it. 8-). If I still used pine I would. I would have thought you'd realized the cascade risk. :-) -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 20:33:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D8C214DC5 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:33:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 9659 invoked by alias); 4 Apr 1999 04:31:48 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 9625 invoked by uid 0); 4 Apr 1999 04:31:48 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 4 Apr 1999 04:31:48 -0000 Message-ID: <3706EAFF.51AC6A0E@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 20:30:55 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Lehey , fullermd@futuresouth.com, bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) References: <199904040356.UAA01748@usr08.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > ab JOOI What the heck is this supposed to mean? IIRC, Just Out Of Interest, HTH HAND. :-) -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 3 20:36:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E122714DC5 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 20:36:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 11762 invoked by alias); 4 Apr 1999 04:34:17 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 11739 invoked by uid 0); 4 Apr 1999 04:34:17 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 4 Apr 1999 04:34:17 -0000 Message-ID: <3706EB94.981B9EA3@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 20:33:24 -0800 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: Christian Weisgerber , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Chuck is cute References: <199904032159.OAA12667@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > $30-$50 devices are especially damaging to the Internet, as they > would let all the riff-raff in to bother all us AOL users by seeking > to use it as a tool in resolving their immediate mortal needs, like > increasing crop yields beyond subsistance levels, taking all of the > bandwidth away from more useful things like 20Mb dancing baby AVI and > other such socially redeeming stuff. No, no, no, dancing babies are LAST year's hot commodity. 8-} -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 0:21:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B5E914F75 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 00:21:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Ti7c-0005nm-0A; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 08:19:13 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA01227; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:18:40 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id JAA01822; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:16:10 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:16:10 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Greg Lehey Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Terry Lambert , Nocturne , bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Message-ID: <19990404091610.H299@marder-1.localhost> References: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com> <19990403185037.A12711@futuresouth.com> <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 10:55:01AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 10:55:01AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Saturday, 3 April 1999 at 18:50:37 -0600, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 03, 1999 at 09:41:42PM +0000, a little birdie told me > > that Terry Lambert remarked > >>> The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it > >>> hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem > >>> didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. > >> > >> :set wrapmargin=72 > > > > ITYM > > :set wraplen=72 > > (I use 73, it's prime, and therefor intrinsically better) > > JOOI, how do you reformat a paragraph with vi? !}fmt > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 0:37:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCDD14F75 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 00:37:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10TiNF-000L6f-0B; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 08:35:22 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA01234; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:33:33 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id JAA01852; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:31:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:31:03 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Terry Lambert Cc: Greg Lehey , fullermd@futuresouth.com, dpilgrim@uswest.net, bradley@softhome.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Message-ID: <19990404093103.I299@marder-1.localhost> References: <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com> <199904040356.UAA01748@usr08.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199904040356.UAA01748@usr08.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 03:56:51AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 03:56:51AM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > >>> The problem was that it would just let my text run long, making it > > >>> hard to review the e-mail before sending. The screen-width problem > > >>> didn't even exist then, everyone was using 80-column screens. > > >> > > >> :set wrapmargin=72 > > > > > > ITYM > > > :set wraplen=72 > > > (I use 73, it's prime, and therefor intrinsically better) > > > > JOOI, how do you reformat a paragraph with vi? Just Out Of Interest > > !}fmt^M > > Will reformat from the cursor position to the end of the paragraph. > > If you care about quoting, write a script, or map a key, instead. > > Another common trick is to use abbreviation expansion in your .exrc: > > ab teh the > ab cutsomer customer > ab heirarchy hierarchy > ab JOOI What the heck is this supposed to mean? > > Etc. > > See the VI FAQ for quoted text reformatting macros: > > http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/editor-faq/vi/part2/faq.html > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 6:32:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC92A14F90 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 06:32:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id PAA07769 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 15:30:26 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10Tkg9-000WyZC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Sun, 4 Apr 1999 13:03:01 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Date: 4 Apr 1999 13:02:58 +0200 Message-ID: <7e7gt2$k05$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com>, Greg Lehey wrote: > JOOI, how do you reformat a paragraph with vi? As others have pointed out somewhat cryptically, you pipe it through an external command that does the actual formatting. Apart from the rather primitive "fmt", there is also "par" (the textproc/par port), which allows you to specify the filling strategy, justification, quote recognition, etc in excruciating detail. Alas, it was written by a mathematician, and the manual is somewhat incomprehensible. (Well, it should be fine for Terry.) -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de LinuxTag '99 - 26./27. Juni, Uni Kaiserslautern - http://www.linuxtag.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 8:31:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [192.139.81.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B4BB514F87 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 08:31:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([192.139.81.180]:54027 "EHLO shattered" ident: "IDENT-NONSENSE") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id <61467-269>; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:32:53 -0400 Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:32:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: the meaning of this UserFriendly Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For those who have not caught it, http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99apr/19990404.html I just keep wondering as to the meanining of that flag the penguin is waving. Suspicious indeed.. Comments? Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 alexp@iplink.net -=- (work) veers@disturbed.net -=- (play) Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 9:11: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from valis.goatsucker.org (dialup-port4.dcs.qmw.ac.uk [138.37.88.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA64E14C09 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:10:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsm@acm.org) Received: (from scott@localhost) by valis.goatsucker.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA03058; Sat, 3 Apr 1999 19:37:26 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <19990403193726.00403@goatsucker.org> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 19:37:26 +0100 From: Scott Mitchell To: Doug Beaver Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Chuck is cute References: <7drke8$lmn$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <7142.922948035@zippy.cdrom.com> <7dveen$737$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> <19990401114218.D7096@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> <19990401103905.B5764@scalar.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <19990401103905.B5764@scalar.org>; from Doug Beaver on Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 10:39:05AM -0800 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 10:39:05AM -0800, Doug Beaver wrote: > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:42:18AM +0100, Scott Mitchell wrote: > > True, but amazon.com and amazon.co.uk also use cookies, and forget who I am > > when I turn them off... > > Hi Scott: > > Well, yeah, of course it's going to forget you if you don't have cookies > turned on... Would you expect it to work any other way? ;-) Not really... I guess that's the point I was trying to make. I have cookies turned on because they make my life easier; Amazon (for instance) already know my address and credit card number, so I can't really object to the cookie -- I wouldn't have told them all the other stuff if I thought they were going to misuse it. I guess it all depends on how paranoid you are :) Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 9:17:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94A6914C09 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 09:17:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #4) id 10TocZ-0008VA-00; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:15:35 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:15:35 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Mark Ovens Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Message-ID: <19990404161535.A32644@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com> <19990403185037.A12711@futuresouth.com> <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com> <19990404091610.H299@marder-1.localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990404091610.H299@marder-1.localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > !}fmt You mean, of course, !}par :-) The nice thing about par (in the ports) is that it automatically handles quoted text, even multileveled quoted text. I really couldn't live without this, with the amount of broken quoting that needs to be put back to <80 characters. Last time I looked, plain vanilla fmt didn't do that. Did I miss an option? -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk send a blank message to ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 10:13:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lab.cba.ualr.edu (lab.cba.ualr.edu [144.167.120.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E28A6150F3 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 10:12:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@lab.cba.ualr.edu) Received: from lab.cba.ualr.edu (joe@lab.cba.ualr.edu [144.167.120.221]) by lab.cba.ualr.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA21075; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 12:11:01 -0500 Date: Sun, 4 Apr 1999 12:11:01 -0500 (CDT) From: Joe To: Scott Mitchell Cc: Doug Beaver , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Chuck is cute In-Reply-To: <19990403193726.00403@goatsucker.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 3 Apr 1999, Scott Mitchell wrote: > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 10:39:05AM -0800, Doug Beaver wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 01, 1999 at 11:42:18AM +0100, Scott Mitchell wrote: > > > True, but amazon.com and amazon.co.uk also use cookies, and forget who I am > > > when I turn them off... > > > > Hi Scott: > > > > Well, yeah, of course it's going to forget you if you don't have cookies > > turned on... Would you expect it to work any other way? ;-) > > Not really... I guess that's the point I was trying to make. I have > cookies turned on because they make my life easier; Amazon (for instance) > already know my address and credit card number, so I can't really object to > the cookie -- I wouldn't have told them all the other stuff if I thought > they were going to misuse it. > > I guess it all depends on how paranoid you are :) > ln -s /dev/null cookies To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 16:58:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2450B15332 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 16:58:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10Twko-0006ni-0K; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:56:39 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA00280; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:56:04 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id AAA02617; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:53:59 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:53:59 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Ben Smithurst Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Message-ID: <19990405005359.K299@marder-1.localhost> References: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com> <19990403185037.A12711@futuresouth.com> <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com> <19990404091610.H299@marder-1.localhost> <19990404161535.A32644@scientia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990404161535.A32644@scientia.demon.co.uk>; from Ben Smithurst on Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 04:15:35PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 04:15:35PM +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: > Mark Ovens wrote: > > > !}fmt > > You mean, of course, > > !}par > > :-) > > The nice thing about par (in the ports) is that it automatically handles > quoted text, even multileveled quoted text. I really couldn't live > without this, with the amount of broken quoting that needs to be put > back to <80 characters. Last time I looked, plain vanilla fmt didn't do > that. Thanks for the pointer I'll check it out (we Luddites need the occasional prod with Chuck's fork :-) ) > Did I miss an option? Nope, don't think so > > -- > Ben Smithurst > ben@scientia.demon.co.uk > > send a blank message to ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk for PGP key > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 22:31:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 342E8150A1 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 22:31:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id OAA28303; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:59:44 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA14558; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:59:38 +0930 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:59:38 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Alex Perel Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: the meaning of this UserFriendly In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Alex Perel wrote: > I just keep wondering as to the meanining of that flag the penguin is > waving. Suspicious indeed.. It's a white flag reading "BSD", so it could be taken to mean Linux surrendering to BSD :-) Kris > Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 > alexp@iplink.net -=- (work) > veers@disturbed.net -=- (play) > > Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD > == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > ----- The Feynman problem-solving algorithm: 1. Write down the problem 2. Think real hard 3. Write down the solution To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 22:38:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D02A150AA for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 22:38:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA01388; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:06:40 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA07744; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:06:40 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990405150640.H2142@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:06:40 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Kris Kennaway , Alex Perel Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: the meaning of this UserFriendly References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Kris Kennaway on Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 02:59:38PM +0930 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 5 April 1999 at 14:59:38 +0930, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Alex Perel wrote: > >> I just keep wondering as to the meanining of that flag the penguin is >> waving. Suspicious indeed.. > > It's a white flag reading "BSD", so it could be taken to mean Linux > surrendering to BSD :-) I would have thought that the Microsoft rocket would be more significant, assuming it makes its target and explodes. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 22:41:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D3D8150A1 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 22:41:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from norn@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 699C516B6; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 22:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Content-Length: 505 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 22:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Reply-To: Chris Piazza From: Chris Piazza To: Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: the meaning of this UserFriendly Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Alex Perel Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-Apr-99 Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Alex Perel wrote: > >> I just keep wondering as to the meanining of that flag the penguin is >> waving. Suspicious indeed.. > > It's a white flag reading "BSD", so it could be taken to mean Linux > surrendering to BSD :-) > > Kris > I suppose, but more likely it's just a way to include the BSD's instead of just focusing on Linux. --- Chris Piazza Abbotsford, BC, Canada cpiazza@home.net finger norn@norn.ca.eu.org for PGP key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 22:45:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90EF714C1F for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 22:45:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id PAA23443; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:13:30 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA16514; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:13:26 +0930 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:13:26 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Greg Lehey Cc: Alex Perel , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: the meaning of this UserFriendly In-Reply-To: <19990405150640.H2142@lemis.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> I just keep wondering as to the meanining of that flag the penguin is > >> waving. Suspicious indeed.. > > > > It's a white flag reading "BSD", so it could be taken to mean Linux > > surrendering to BSD :-) > > I would have thought that the Microsoft rocket would be more > significant, assuming it makes its target and explodes. Well yeah, but we're talking subtext here :-) Of course, maybe it's saying that the missile is attempting to wipe out both camps.. Kris > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > ----- The Feynman problem-solving algorithm: 1. Write down the problem 2. Think real hard 3. Write down the solution To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 23:25:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F30915342 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:25:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id PAA25988; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 15:23:22 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3708567E.5D9E7BB8@newsguy.com> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 15:21:50 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: BOFH Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I was trying to locate the bofh text in my files, but it seems I'll have search through my backup cds... But before I engage in this activity, does anyone here has a copy at hand? -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "nothing better than the ability to perform cunning linguistics" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 4 23:55:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from k6n1.znh.org (unknown [207.109.235.47]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D34F814FAD for ; Sun, 4 Apr 1999 23:55:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zach@uffdaonline.net) Received: (from zach@localhost) by k6n1.znh.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id GAA49176; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 06:52:26 GMT (envelope-from zach) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:52:26 -0500 From: Zach Heilig To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BOFH Message-ID: <19990405015226.A49145@k6n1.znh.org> References: <3708567E.5D9E7BB8@newsguy.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <3708567E.5D9E7BB8@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 03:21:50PM +0900 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 03:21:50PM +0900, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > I was trying to locate the bofh text in my files, but it seems I'll > have search through my backup cds... But before I engage in this > activity, does anyone here has a copy at hand? BOFH -> Bastard Operator From Hell, right? I see that is it here: http://www.bsd.org/ find these links: * Additional Sources of Information on the Net / Miscellaneous Links * The Bastard Operator From Hell or just: http://prime-mover.cc.waikato.ac.nz/Bastard.html -- Zach Heilig To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 0: 9:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B27714E8F for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:09:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990405070903.EGJY5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:09:03 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Zach Heilig Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:08:27 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: BOFH Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <19990405015226.A49145@k6n1.znh.org> References: <3708567E.5D9E7BB8@newsguy.com>; from Daniel C. Sobral on Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 03:21:50PM +0900 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990405070903.EGJY5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 5 Apr 99, at 1:52, Zach Heilig wrote: > http://prime-mover.cc.waikato.ac.nz/Bastard.html It doesn't resolve. And using a NZ search engine, I couldn't find anything on BOFH. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 0:41:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B80C1503B for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:41:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA01794; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:09:29 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id RAA07972; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:09:28 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990405170927.P2142@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:09:27 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz, Zach Heilig Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BOFH References: <3708567E.5D9E7BB8@newsguy.com>; <19990405015226.A49145@k6n1.znh.org> <19990405070903.EGJY5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990405070903.EGJY5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; from Dan Langille on Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 07:08:27PM +1200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 5 April 1999 at 19:08:27 +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > On 5 Apr 99, at 1:52, Zach Heilig wrote: > >> http://prime-mover.cc.waikato.ac.nz/Bastard.html > > It doesn't resolve. It resolves. It's a CNAME for mrjollylivesnextdoor.cc.waikato.ac.nz, but the machine appears to be down. A traceroute gets as far as triton.waikato.ac.nz. > And using a NZ search engine, I couldn't find anything on BOFH. I don't think it's an NZ thing. I've read it, and it sounds pretty American to me. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 0:44:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from k6n1.znh.org (unknown [207.109.235.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8B8E151E7 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:44:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zach@uffdaonline.net) Received: (from zach@localhost) by k6n1.znh.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) id HAA49392; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 07:39:19 GMT (envelope-from zach) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 02:39:19 -0500 From: Zach Heilig To: Dan Langille Cc: Zach Heilig , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BOFH Message-ID: <19990405023919.A49376@k6n1.znh.org> References: <3708567E.5D9E7BB8@newsguy.com>; <19990405015226.A49145@k6n1.znh.org> <19990405070903.EGJY5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990405070903.EGJY5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; from Dan Langille on Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 07:08:27PM +1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 07:08:27PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > On 5 Apr 99, at 1:52, Zach Heilig wrote: > > http://prime-mover.cc.waikato.ac.nz/Bastard.html > It doesn't resolve. And using a NZ search engine, I couldn't find > anything on BOFH. Yes, noticed that after I posted. They were there a couple months ago (that's where the link from www.bsd.org points). -- Zach Heilig To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 0:51:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1A8C15371 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:51:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990405075114.EPHM5752963.mta2-rme@wocker>; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:51:14 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Greg Lehey Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:50:18 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: BOFH Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990405170927.P2142@lemis.com> References: <19990405070903.EGJY5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; from Dan Langille on Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 07:08:27PM +1200 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990405075114.EPHM5752963.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 5 Apr 99, at 17:09, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 5 April 1999 at 19:08:27 +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > > On 5 Apr 99, at 1:52, Zach Heilig wrote: > > > >> http://prime-mover.cc.waikato.ac.nz/Bastard.html > > > > It doesn't resolve. My fault. I tried cc.waikato.ac.nz. My mistake. > > It resolves. It's a CNAME for mrjollylivesnextdoor.cc.waikato.ac.nz, but > the machine appears to be down. A traceroute gets as far as > triton.waikato.ac.nz. > > > And using a NZ search engine, I couldn't find anything on BOFH. > > I don't think it's an NZ thing. I've read it, and it sounds pretty > American to me. I didn't mean to say it was. Only that I couldn't find a link to the site. And I can't locate the nz archie atm. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 1: 7:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6CAA61503B for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:07:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by mail.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 00:56:08 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Greg Lehey" , "Kris Kennaway" , "Alex Perel" Cc: Subject: RE: the meaning of this UserFriendly Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 01:05:12 -0700 Message-ID: <000401be7f3b$07a3b5c0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-reply-to: <19990405150640.H2142@lemis.com> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Perhaps the Penguin is surrendering to Microsoft, using BSD's well-worn surrendering flag. DS > On Monday, 5 April 1999 at 14:59:38 +0930, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Alex Perel wrote: > > > >> I just keep wondering as to the meanining of that flag the penguin is > >> waving. Suspicious indeed.. > > > > It's a white flag reading "BSD", so it could be taken to mean Linux > > surrendering to BSD :-) > > I would have thought that the Microsoft rocket would be more > significant, assuming it makes its target and explodes. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 2:36:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bamf.demon.co.uk (bamf.demon.co.uk [158.152.173.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A1AE3153D7 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 02:36:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rich@dynamite.org) Received: from clyde (unverified [192.168.1.2]) by clyde.chugaboom.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Mon, 05 Apr 1999 10:34:18 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Rich Wood" Organization: dynamite.org To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 10:34:18 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: BOFH Reply-To: rich@dynamite.org In-reply-to: <3708567E.5D9E7BB8@newsguy.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.02b14) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 5 Apr 99, at 15:21, Daniel C. Sobral wrote: > I was trying to locate the bofh text in my files, but it seems I'll > have search through my backup cds... But before I engage in this > activity, does anyone here has a copy at hand? http://www.networkweek.com/bofh/ Rich -- rich@dynamite.org If that's what they call normal, I'd rather be insane. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 7:14:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [192.139.81.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E84B14BCF for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 07:14:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([192.139.81.180]:60934 "EHLO shattered" ident: "IDENT-NONSENSE") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id <61467-264>; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 10:16:06 -0400 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 10:16:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Greg Lehey Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: the meaning of this UserFriendly In-Reply-To: <19990405150640.H2142@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 5 April 1999 at 14:59:38 +0930, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Alex Perel wrote: > > > >> I just keep wondering as to the meanining of that flag the penguin is > >> waving. Suspicious indeed.. > > > > It's a white flag reading "BSD", so it could be taken to mean Linux > > surrendering to BSD :-) > > I would have thought that the Microsoft rocket would be more > significant, assuming it makes its target and explodes. Or maybe the linux camp is trying to convince Microsoft that their rocket did in fact wipe out the FreeBSD camp, to minimize their losses. I resent that. I do rather like the white surrender flag idea though :) Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 alexp@iplink.net -=- (work) veers@disturbed.net -=- (play) Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 10:47:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C0421547C for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 10:47:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from outpost.co.nz (b001-m006-p026.wgtn.clear.net.nz [203.167.241.90]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id FAA28371; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 05:45:25 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199904051745.FAA28371@fep1-orange.clear.net.nz> Received: (qmail 1058 invoked from network); 5 Apr 1999 12:51:53 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.acme.gen.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by evil-smelling-bugger.acme.gen.nz with SMTP; 5 Apr 1999 12:51:53 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 00:51:31 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: BOFH Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz In-reply-to: <19990405170927.P2142@lemis.com> References: <19990405070903.EGJY5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; from Dan Langille on Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 07:08:27PM +1200 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > And using a NZ search engine, I couldn't find anything on BOFH. > > I don't think it's an NZ thing. I've read it, and it sounds pretty > American to me. I think he was looking on NZ search engines as the author, Simon Travaglia, was working at Waikato University at the time (and, I think, still is). I assume he's a kiwi, but I don't have independent proof of that assumption. -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 12:51:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 35B4F14C8F for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 12:51:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 6013 invoked by alias); 5 Apr 1999 19:49:49 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 5985 invoked by uid 0); 5 Apr 1999 19:49:48 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 5 Apr 1999 19:49:48 -0000 Message-ID: <370913A7.797BFAC0@uswest.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 12:48:55 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Zach Heilig Cc: Dan Langille , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: BOFH References: <3708567E.5D9E7BB8@newsguy.com>; <19990405015226.A49145@k6n1.znh.org> <19990405070903.EGJY5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990405023919.A49376@k6n1.znh.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Zach Heilig wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 07:08:27PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > > On 5 Apr 99, at 1:52, Zach Heilig wrote: > > > http://prime-mover.cc.waikato.ac.nz/Bastard.html > > > It doesn't resolve. And using a NZ search engine, I couldn't find > > anything on BOFH. > > Yes, noticed that after I posted. They were there a couple months ago > (that's where the link from www.bsd.org points). http://www.iinet.net.au/~bofh/ has it as well -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 14:27:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D2D7B1547D for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 14:27:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 7177 invoked by alias); 5 Apr 1999 21:25:28 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 7139 invoked by uid 0); 5 Apr 1999 21:25:26 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 5 Apr 1999 21:25:26 -0000 Message-ID: <37092A0F.9CEE0A21@uswest.net> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 14:24:32 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dan Cc: hammelr@dsinw.com, dg@root.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Portland FreeBSD users group References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [CCed -chat, it only makes sense] Dan wrote: > On Mon, 5 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > >rick hamell wrote: > >> > >> Our first official meeting is scheduled for the 22nd of this > >> month. As of this point location has not been announced yet, we would > >> like to get a general number of people first. :) If you're interested > >> please let me know! > > > >As in Portland, Oregon? > > I'm a Portland, OR based FreeBSD user. I would be interested in joining > a user group in the area. Please let me know where and what time > you are planning to meet. > > I'm glad someone finally took the initiative to start a user group in > this area. I'll show up, if we can decide where to meet by, say, the 17th? I need the lead time to clear it with the powers that be and to arrange transportation if needed. This is assuming we're talking about Portland, Oregon. Rick? Where is everyone coming from? If I have a layout for my IG idea by the meeting time, I'll be sure to bring it. What goes on at these meetings, anyhow? -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 16:51: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75F8014FA4 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA08005; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:48:47 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990406094843.38993@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:48:43 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nik Clayton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Fatherless figures References: <19990405234615.B6083@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990405234615.B6083@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 11:46:15PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 03:53:13PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > [1] Do you know you've arrived in the FreeBSD project when people just > > refer to you by your first name? > > No, you just know that your first name is still unique enough to make > that even possible. :-) No, take another look. He only thought two people needed a family name. (Either that or he thought we were related) There was a common and an uncommon first name in each group: On Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 11:46:15PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > Hi folks, > > People seem to be a bit more active on this list recently, so I'm reposting > something from November last year. Now that the DocBook conversion is > done I'm looking at this in more detail, and would appreciate comments. > > Sean Kelly, Jordan, Eivind, and Sue Blake[1] will recognise some of this. > > Also, this is long, sorry about that. > > N > > [1] Do you know you've arrived in the FreeBSD project when people just > refer to you by your first name? I've never heard of anyone else called Eivind, but I reckon the probability of discovering another gasbag round these parts whose name is Sue is even slimmer :-) And without quoting it all again, the Handbook Reorganisation proposal posted to -doc looks great! I wanna buy one already :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 16:55:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73BF715406 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 16:55:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (kelly@tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA09911; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:53:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Message-ID: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 17:53:02 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nik Clayton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fatherless figures References: <19990405234615.B6083@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <19990406094843.38993@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No, take another look. He only thought two people needed a family name. > (Either that or he thought we were related) There was a common and an > uncommon first name in each group: Just for that, I'm going to have to change my name. Hmmm, Jordan Eivind Kelly-Blake? --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 17: 2: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78F12153CB for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 17:01:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:01:12 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Sean Kelly Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:59:52 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Fatherless figures Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nik Clayton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 5 Apr 99, at 17:53, Sean Kelly wrote: > > No, take another look. He only thought two people needed a family name. > > (Either that or he thought we were related) There was a common and an > > uncommon first name in each group: > > Just for that, I'm going to have to change my name. Hmmm, Jordan Eivind > Kelly-Blake? I, for one, am quite sure there'll be few around with my surname. There's only one other entry in the phone book here in NZ. But it's quite common in Canada where the Ottawa phone book has about 3 pages of us in various spellings (Langil, Langill, Langile, etc). It's Norman. Not as in Cheers, but as in France. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 18:57:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (notabene.zer0.org [206.24.105.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F7E014D72 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:57:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id SAA43390; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:55:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 18:55:30 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Dan Langille Cc: Sean Kelly , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Nik Clayton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fatherless figures Message-ID: <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org> References: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; from Dan Langille on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 11:59:52AM +1200 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 11:59:52AM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > On 5 Apr 99, at 17:53, Sean Kelly wrote: > > > > No, take another look. He only thought two people needed a family name. > > > (Either that or he thought we were related) There was a common and an > > > uncommon first name in each group: > > > > Just for that, I'm going to have to change my name. Hmmm, Jordan Eivind > > Kelly-Blake? > > I, for one, am quite sure there'll be few around with my surname. There's > only one other entry in the phone book here in NZ. But it's quite common > in Canada where the Ottawa phone book has about 3 pages of us in various > spellings (Langil, Langill, Langile, etc). It's Norman. Not as in > Cheers, but as in France. I just moved from Pennsylvania, USA (near Atlantic) to California, USA (near Pacific). I've also gone from having my surname misspelt (Futter, Suter, Sutler, etc), mispronounced (Soo-ter, most commonly) and generally bent out of shape... to having a surfeit of Sutter. Everything in northern California seems to be named Sutter, thanks to the gent on whose property gold was discovered in 1849. There is a Sutter County, Sutter's Fort, Sutter's Mill, as well as Sutter hospital, countless Sutter streets, and so on, and so on, and so on. The one benefit is that nobody here asks me to spell or pronounce my name. Jordan, are you oft asked of you relation to L. Ron? P.S. Sean, if you know Dru, Dru says hi. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter "How do I read this file?" mailto:gsutter@pobox.com "You uudecode it." http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ "I I I decode it?" PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 19:30:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C668B152C8 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:30:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA14924; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:28:19 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:28:19 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Gregory Sutter Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fatherless figures Message-ID: <19990405212819.P11572@futuresouth.com> References: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org>; from Gregory Sutter on Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 06:55:30PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 06:55:30PM -0700, a little birdie told me that Gregory Sutter remarked > > I just moved from Pennsylvania, USA (near Atlantic) to California, USA > (near Pacific). I've also gone from having my surname misspelt (Futter, > Suter, Sutler, etc), mispronounced (Soo-ter, most commonly) and > generally bent out of shape... to having a surfeit of Sutter. > Everything in northern California seems to be named Sutter, thanks to > the gent on whose property gold was discovered in 1849. There is a > Sutter County, Sutter's Fort, Sutter's Mill, as well as Sutter hospital, > countless Sutter streets, and so on, and so on, and so on. The one > benefit is that nobody here asks me to spell or pronounce my name. Don't forget Sutter Home vineyards. Quite fine wine, I especially reccomend the Zinfandel. --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 19:39:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (notabene.zer0.org [206.24.105.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75580155C3 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:39:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id TAA43911; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 19:37:31 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fatherless figures Message-ID: <19990405193731.I24767@001101.zer0.org> References: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org> <19990405212819.P11572@futuresouth.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990405212819.P11572@futuresouth.com>; from Matthew D. Fuller on Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 09:28:19PM -0500 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 09:28:19PM -0500, Matthew D. Fuller wrote: > On Mon, Apr 05, 1999 at 06:55:30PM -0700, a little birdie told me > that Gregory Sutter remarked > > > > I just moved from Pennsylvania, USA (near Atlantic) to California, USA > > (near Pacific). I've also gone from having my surname misspelt (Futter, > > Suter, Sutler, etc), mispronounced (Soo-ter, most commonly) and > > generally bent out of shape... to having a surfeit of Sutter. > > Everything in northern California seems to be named Sutter, thanks to > > the gent on whose property gold was discovered in 1849. There is a > > Sutter County, Sutter's Fort, Sutter's Mill, as well as Sutter hospital, > > countless Sutter streets, and so on, and so on, and so on. The one > > benefit is that nobody here asks me to spell or pronounce my name. > > Don't forget Sutter Home vineyards. > Quite fine wine, I especially reccomend the Zinfandel. Really? I'm not much of a wine snob, but I've always considered that winery a blight on the family name. Maybe I am a wine snob. :) Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter The best way to accelerate Windows mailto:gsutter@pobox.com is at 9.8 m/s^2. http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 21: 5: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.actrix.gen.nz (mail2.actrix.gen.nz [203.96.16.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF1E15079 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:04:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@xtra.co.nz) Received: from actrix.gen.nz (actrix@lemuria.actrix.gen.nz [203.96.16.20]) by mail.actrix.gen.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id QAA06434 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:02:53 +1200 (NZST) From: "Dan Langille" Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:02:58 +1200 Subject: FreeBSD = ? X-Mailer: DMailWeb Web to Mail Gateway 1.6f, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <37098772.625d.0@actrix.gen.nz> X-User-Info: 202.37.52.5 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Someone at work overhead a few of us talking about FreeBSD and asked what it was. So we told them. "Ahhh. And does BSD mean Big Sexy Devils?" [no, they're not devils, they're daemons] Strangely enough, the person in question would never have seen the beastie images. -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary -http://www.freebsddiary.com/freebsd/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 5 23:33:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4237815013 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:33:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id XAA70095; Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:31:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 23:31:23 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: announce@bafug.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: San Francisco chapter BAFUG April meeting Message-ID: <19990405233123.A70077@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- San Francisco BAFUG -- The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, April 8th. This months meeting will be held at The Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> Bob Bruce, Owner of Walnut Creek CDROM, will give a talk on the relationship between Walnut Creek and FreeBSD. Walnut Creek CDROM has been our biggest booster over the years. Aside from pressing all our CDs since Rel. 1.0 and paying for all the computer and network infrastructure we use, they have under written a large part of the cost of development of FreeBSD including paying several key developers salary. He will share his vision of the future of FreeBSD and Walnut Creek. ==> Josef Grosch will talk about BAFUGs plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on April 10th at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Oakland Convention Center. This Install-A-Thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux). We will also be holding our traditional Install-A-Thon at the Cow Place in Daly City. The date for this show is April 24th. See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> Thanks for all the donations of hardware to build BAFUG display & demo machine for use at the Install-a-thons. A big thinks to Whistle Communications for providing us with a very long time loan of a Whistle Interjet for us to use as an FTP server at our Install-A-Thons. Whistle Communications can be found at www.whistle.com ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the tab will be picked up by Walnut Creek CDROM. Thanks guys! ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at The Reef in San Francisco. The Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By Muni: Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights stop nearby. By BART: Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, on the right (south) side. By Car: From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.reef.com http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before April 8th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 2: 7:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13BF6151C4 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 02:07:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id CAA71599; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 02:05:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 02:05:26 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: announce@bafug.org Subject: Head count for April BAFUG meeting Message-ID: <19990406020526.A71570@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 2: 9:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28A41153AD for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 02:09:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id CAA71687 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 02:07:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 02:07:20 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Head count for April BAFUG meeting Message-ID: <19990406020720.A71675@ontario.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Approved: announce.BSDadmin Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 4: 5:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D89DE150FE for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 04:05:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-028.thuntek.net [207.66.52.28]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id FAA13372; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 05:03:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3709E9DA.72130DB4@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 05:02:50 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fatherless figures References: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gregory Sutter wrote: > > > I just moved from Pennsylvania, USA (near Atlantic) to California, USA > (near Pacific). I've also gone from having my surname misspelt (Futter, > Suter, Sutler, etc), mispronounced (Soo-ter, most commonly) and > generally bent out of shape... to having a surfeit of Sutter. When I was in Hollywood, the question was always "Are you related to Oscar?" and I'm not. My family is German, not English, and it's "Will-dee" from old G "Vil-deh", meaning "of the wilderness" (North Woods), but when in Hollywood you don't correct the Producers, so I gave up and used "Don Wilde" ("Wild") as a "stage name". In the East, I also got a dozen different mispronunciations. In California, EVERYBODY knew my name was "Wild"... such is life... :-) -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 5:30:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03D6814BF1 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 05:30:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10UUxj-000Q05-0B; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:28:16 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA02827; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:27:46 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id NAA03198; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:25:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:25:12 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Donald Wilde Cc: Gregory Sutter , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fatherless figures Message-ID: <19990406132512.L1360@marder-1.localhost> References: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org> <3709E9DA.72130DB4@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <3709E9DA.72130DB4@thuntek.net>; from Donald Wilde on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 05:02:50AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 05:02:50AM -0600, Donald Wilde wrote: > > When I was in Hollywood, the question was always "Are you related to > Oscar?" and I'm not. > > My family is German, not English, and it's "Will-dee" from old G Oscar Wilde was Irish, not English -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 5:56: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from iserver.itworks.com.au (iserver.itworks.com.au [203.32.61.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A1EC1516E for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 05:56:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gavin@itworks.com.au) Received: from localhost (gavin@localhost) by iserver.itworks.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09349 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:54:08 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from gavin@itworks.com.au) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:54:07 +1000 (EST) From: Gavin Cameron To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: User's group in Melbourne Australia Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, Calling all FreeBSD users in Melbourne who would like to get together with other local FreeBSD users. The users groups is very much in its infancy but we already have an E-mail list that you can join, and a WWW page is on its way (thanks Joel!). The mailing list is under control of the Majordomo mailing list manager and you can join the list by sending a message to majordomo@itworks.com.au with the text "subscribe melb-fbsd" in the text of the message. Look forward to hearing from all of you. Cheers, Gavin Cameron []-----------------------------------+------------------------------------[] | Gavin Cameron | ITworks Consulting | | Ph : +61 3 9667 0297 | Suite 100, 85 Grattan Street | | Fax : +61 3 9347 6544 | Carlton, Victoria | | Email : gavin@itworks.com.au | Australia, 3053 | []-----------------------------------+------------------------------------[] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 6: 3: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F50A1516E for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 06:03:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-028.thuntek.net [207.66.52.28]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA27743; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 07:00:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <370A054F.5DFF0473@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 06:59:59 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fatherless figures References: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org> <3709E9DA.72130DB4@thuntek.net> <19990406132512.L1360@marder-1.localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry, my Dad always calls them "the English Wildes". -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 8:44:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5971815077 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 08:44:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (kelly@tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id JAA29682; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 09:42:32 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Message-ID: <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 09:42:32 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fatherless figures References: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org> <19990405212819.P11572@futuresouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Don't forget Sutter Home vineyards. > Quite fine wine, I especially reccomend the Zinfandel. Not bad. For zinfandel, I absolutely adore Renwood. The 95 "grandpere" is spicy and full of character. Yum! Is it lunch time yet? (It's gotta be lunch time somewhere ... let's drink!) --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 11:17:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E68B15691 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:17:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10UaNm-0001g2-0K; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:15:31 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id TAA03939; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:14:17 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id TAA03555; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:12:15 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:12:15 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Sean Kelly Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , Gregory Sutter , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fatherless figures Message-ID: <19990406191215.O1360@marder-1.localhost> References: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org> <19990405212819.P11572@futuresouth.com> <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com>; from Sean Kelly on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 09:42:32AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 09:42:32AM -0600, Sean Kelly wrote: > > Don't forget Sutter Home vineyards. > > Quite fine wine, I especially reccomend the Zinfandel. > > Not bad. For zinfandel, I absolutely adore Renwood. The 95 "grandpere" > is spicy and full of character. Yum! Is it lunch time yet? (It's > gotta be lunch time somewhere ... let's drink!) > And you'll even find bottles of Sutter Home (a Merlot IIRC) in my local pub here in England. In view of your comments, I might even try a glass this evening :-) > --Sean > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 11:25:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.tellique.de (big-gw.tellique.de [195.126.133.179]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A45115691 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 11:25:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ni@tellique.de) Received: from tellique.de (nolde.tellique.de [62.144.106.52]) by mail.tellique.de (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA07704; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:23:15 +0200 Message-ID: <370A5111.BC24412C@tellique.de> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 20:23:13 +0200 From: Juergen Nickelsen Organization: Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH, Germany X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: the meaning of this UserFriendly References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway wrote: > > On Sun, 4 Apr 1999, Alex Perel wrote: > > > I just keep wondering as to the meanining of that flag the penguin > > is waving. Suspicious indeed.. > > It's a white flag reading "BSD", so it could be taken to mean Linux > surrendering to BSD :-) I am sure that this relates to the fact that Columbia Internet has not, to my knowledge, switched back from FreeBSD to Linux. Probably they simply recognized The Power. -- Juergen Nickelsen Tellique Kommunikationstechnik GmbH Gustav-Meyer-Allee 25, 13355 Berlin, Germany Tel. +49 30 46307-552 / Fax +49 30 46307-579 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 12:22:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F98D15734 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 12:22:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id VAA13439 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:20:43 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id CC818884E; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:54:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:54:47 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Fatherless figures Message-ID: <19990406205447.A53891@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org> <19990405212819.P11572@futuresouth.com> <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com>; from Sean Kelly on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 09:42:32AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5173 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Sean Kelly: > Not bad. For zinfandel, I absolutely adore Renwood. The 95 "grandpere" > is spicy and full of character. Yum! Is it lunch time yet? (It's > gotta be lunch time somewhere ... let's drink!) Last time I was in London for a meeting, I got to drink a bottle of red wine, a Pinot Noir 95 from a wine grower named Morton in New Zealand. Very good, tasty and light, like the french Côte Châlonnaise (eqiv. is Mercurey and Givry in France). Very nice especially considering that I'm _very_ fond of the Pinot Noir (the base for 95% of the Burgundies). I must confess having 60% of my wine cellar filled with Burgundies :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #70: Sat Feb 27 09:43:08 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 13: 9: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75AAB14BFA for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:09:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990406200824.QCCP5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:08:24 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Ollivier Robert Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:07:01 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: Re: Fatherless figures Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <19990406205447.A53891@keltia.freenix.fr> References: <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com>; from Sean Kelly on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 09:42:32AM -0600 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990406200824.QCCP5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 6 Apr 99, at 20:54, Ollivier Robert wrote: > Last time I was in London for a meeting, I got to drink a bottle of red > wine, a Pinot Noir 95 from a wine grower named Morton in New Zealand. Very > good, tasty and light, like the french C=F4te Ch=E2lonnaise (eqiv. is Mercurey > and Givry in France). That would be Morton Estate I believe. Not a bad drop. If I come to France for some mountain biking, I'll bring you a bottle if they can be found. > Very nice especially considering that I'm _very_ fond of the Pinot Noir > (the base for 95% of the Burgundies). I must confess having 60% of my wine > cellar filled with Burgundies :-) At one time, I enjoyed wine several times a week, but over the past 5 years or so, my consumption has dropped to almost nil. Mostly because of the mountain biking... -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 13:51: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B38A155D2 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:50:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id GAA20414; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:54:15 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199904062054.GAA20414@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: User's group in Melbourne Australia In-Reply-To: from Gavin Cameron at "Apr 6, 1999 10:54: 7 pm" To: gavin@itworks.com.au (Gavin Cameron) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:54:15 +1000 (EST) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gavin Cameron wrote: > Calling all FreeBSD users in Melbourne who would like to get together with > other local FreeBSD users. The users groups is very much in its infancy > but we already have an E-mail list that you can join, and a WWW page is on > its way (thanks Joel!). OK, I subscribed to the list. I hope it's low volume! -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 14:29:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E3031562B for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:28:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id XAA18941 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:27:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 6F5E5884E; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:34:47 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:34:47 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fatherless figures Message-ID: <19990406233447.A600@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org References: <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com>; <19990406205447.A53891@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990406200824.QCCP5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990406200824.QCCP5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; from Dan Langille on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 08:07:01AM +1200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5173 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Dan Langille: > That would be Morton Estate I believe. Not a bad drop. If I come to > France for some mountain biking, I'll bring you a bottle if they can be > found. That's the one ! Thanks for the offer. If you go there, I'll make you drink one of mine :-) > At one time, I enjoyed wine several times a week, but over the past 5 > years or so, my consumption has dropped to almost nil. Mostly because of > the mountain biking... Well, I don't have this problem and since drinking good wine doesn't prevent me playing badminton... :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #70: Sat Feb 27 09:43:08 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 15:38:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c523578-a.sttls1.wa.home.com (c523578-a.sttls1.wa.home.com [24.5.122.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36EA14F53 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:38:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tbackman@c523578-a.sttls1.wa.home.com) Received: from localhost (tbackman@localhost) by c523578-a.sttls1.wa.home.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00507 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:39:36 -0700 Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:39:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Backman To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Good pic of chuck... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone have a good pic of chuck the BSD Daemon? I am thinking about getting him as a new tattoo. ;^) Thanks in advance... no comments from the peanut gallery please! ;^P To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 15:41: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 12A5414F53 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:41:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 76880 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Apr 1999 22:39:08 -0000 Date: 6 Apr 1999 15:39:08 -0700 Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:39:08 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good pic of chuck... Message-ID: <19990406153908.A76847@dub.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Todd Backman on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 03:39:36PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Here is the pic of chuck that is on the new 3.1 disks: http://www.freebsdmall.com/advocacy/images/deamon-drink.jpg There are a bunch more images in the directory you might want to look at. -Bill On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 03:39:36PM -0700, Todd Backman wrote: > > Does anyone have a good pic of chuck the BSD Daemon? I am thinking about > getting him as a new tattoo. ;^) > > Thanks in advance... > > no comments from the peanut gallery please! ;^P -- -=| Bill Swingle - -=| "I hate quotations." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -=| FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! - http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 15:44:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54F90157B2 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:44:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (kelly@tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id QAA47909; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:42:03 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Message-ID: <370A8DBB.5F08B428@plutotech.com> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:42:03 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Bill Swingle Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good pic of chuck... References: <19990406153908.A76847@dub.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > http://www.freebsdmall.com/advocacy/images/deamon-drink.jpg Our motto, "The Power to Serve," is a good one, but this isn't the image I quite had in mind. It's been bugging me ever since I got my 3.1 CDs. Maybe it's seeing Chuck's teeth ... but something's wrong here. --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 15:46:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0998C15620 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:46:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 77033 invoked by uid 1001); 6 Apr 1999 22:44:43 -0000 Date: 6 Apr 1999 15:44:43 -0700 Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:44:43 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good pic of chuck... Message-ID: <19990406154443.B76969@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 04:42:03PM -0600, Sean Kelly wrote: > > http://www.freebsdmall.com/advocacy/images/deamon-drink.jpg > > Our motto, "The Power to Serve," is a good one, but this isn't the image > I quite had in mind. It's been bugging me ever since I got my 3.1 CDs. > Maybe it's seeing Chuck's teeth ... but something's wrong here. > > --Sean I am growing more fond of the new chuck as time goes by. I think it's neat that he has some sort of character now, the previous chuck seemed too much like a doll I guess. -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - -=| "I hate quotations." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -=| FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! - http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 15:51: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from c523578-a.sttls1.wa.home.com (c523578-a.sttls1.wa.home.com [24.5.122.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1AB415654 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:51:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tbackman@c523578-a.sttls1.wa.home.com) Received: from localhost (tbackman@localhost) by c523578-a.sttls1.wa.home.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA00527; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:51:45 -0700 Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:51:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Todd Backman To: Sean Kelly Cc: Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good pic of chuck... In-Reply-To: <370A8DBB.5F08B428@plutotech.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I kinda miss the tail and pitchfork... -Todd On Tue, 6 Apr 1999, Sean Kelly wrote: > > http://www.freebsdmall.com/advocacy/images/deamon-drink.jpg > > Our motto, "The Power to Serve," is a good one, but this isn't the image > I quite had in mind. It's been bugging me ever since I got my 3.1 CDs. > Maybe it's seeing Chuck's teeth ... but something's wrong here. > > --Sean > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 16: 7:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (notabene.zer0.org [206.24.105.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35FE14BE1 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:07:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id QAA62352; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:05:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:05:08 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Bill Swingle Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good pic of chuck... Message-ID: <19990406160508.J47697@001101.zer0.org> References: <19990406154443.B76969@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990406154443.B76969@dub.net>; from Bill Swingle on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 03:44:43PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 03:44:43PM -0700, Bill Swingle wrote: > On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 04:42:03PM -0600, Sean Kelly wrote: > > > http://www.freebsdmall.com/advocacy/images/deamon-drink.jpg > > > > Our motto, "The Power to Serve," is a good one, but this isn't the image > > I quite had in mind. It's been bugging me ever since I got my 3.1 CDs. > > Maybe it's seeing Chuck's teeth ... but something's wrong here. > > I am growing more fond of the new chuck as time goes by. I think it's > neat that he has some sort of character now, the previous chuck seemed > too much like a doll I guess. He does have more character now, but he always had more than Aptenodytes forsteri tuxii (a.k.a. Aptenodytes forsterii grandrumpii). Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter My reality check just bounced. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 16:12:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A829914F50 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:12:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (kelly@tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA49170; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:10:22 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Message-ID: <370A945E.16AA8119@plutotech.com> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:10:22 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good pic of chuck... References: <19990406154443.B76969@dub.net> <19990406160508.J47697@001101.zer0.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > He does have more character now, but he always had more than Aptenodytes > forsteri tuxii (a.k.a. Aptenodytes forsterii grandrumpii). Indeed ... that fellow started out overweight. He's even got breasts! :-) --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 16:13:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66A4614F50 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:13:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-072.thuntek.net [207.66.52.72]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id RAA25131; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:11:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <370A9440.A5C8E6F4@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:09:53 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sean Kelly Cc: Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good pic of chuck... References: <19990406153908.A76847@dub.net> <370A8DBB.5F08B428@plutotech.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeah, I'm not too happy with the "clumsy" impression the new image gives. I would have much preferred a "Jeeves"-type stuffy butler image to go with "The Power to Serve". This guy looks pretty punchy. -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 16:22:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6451E151D6 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:22:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA14893; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:20:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Donald Wilde Cc: Sean Kelly , Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good pic of chuck... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Apr 1999 17:09:53 MDT." <370A9440.A5C8E6F4@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 16:20:41 -0700 Message-ID: <14891.923440841@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yeah, I'm not too happy with the "clumsy" impression the new image > gives. I would have much preferred a "Jeeves"-type stuffy butler image > to go with "The Power to Serve". This guy looks pretty punchy. Guys, guys, this is your reality check in the mail again. Artwork doesn't grown on trees you know and if you want to see some better imagery, go out and make some! I'll be happy to consider any and every submission for CD labels, tee-shirts, whatever. The original artwork appeared in exactly that way and nobody has seen fit, to date, to submit any more. That is the real problem here, not the size of the daemon's teeth or whether he looks like "Norman Bates, Waiter" or anything like that, OK? :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 16:25:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6328B151D6 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:25:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) id AAA03976; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:04:32 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:04:32 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Dan Langille Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD = ? Message-ID: <19990407000432.A69894@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <37098772.625d.0@actrix.gen.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <37098772.625d.0@actrix.gen.nz>; from Dan Langille on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 04:02:58PM +1200 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 04:02:58PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > [no, they're not devils, they're daemons] "They're not devils, they're martians!" N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 16:34:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C46115453 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 16:34:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA11060; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:02:17 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA12779; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:02:15 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990407090214.N2142@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:02:14 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Ollivier Robert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Wine (was: Fatherless figures) References: <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com>; <19990406205447.A53891@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990406200824.QCCP5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990406233447.A600@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990406233447.A600@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 11:34:47PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 6 April 1999 at 23:34:47 +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Dan Langille: >> At one time, I enjoyed wine several times a week, but over the past 5 >> years or so, my consumption has dropped to almost nil. Mostly because of >> the mountain biking... > > Well, I don't have this problem and since drinking good wine doesn't > prevent me playing badminton... :-) You people have your priorities wrong. If your sport gets in the way of drinking good wine, change your sport :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 17:36: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shrike.depaul.edu (shrike.depaul.edu [140.192.1.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D09414C17; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:35:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mhughes@shrike.depaul.edu) Received: from localhost (mhughes@localhost) by shrike.depaul.edu (8.8.3/8.5) with ESMTP id PAA10845; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:44:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 15:43:49 -0500 (CDT) From: Matthew J Hughes To: Marty Poulin Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux vs. FreeBSD: The Storage Wars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does that apply for GNOME? I mean if it works for X will it work for the GNOME project? Matt Web site modified 2/18/99 http://shrike.depaul.edu/~mhughes On Mon, 29 Mar 1999, Marty Poulin wrote: > > > On Fri, 26 Mar 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > > > Interesting. I received your message right after I spent considerable time > > at a place that compares various window managers (got there through a link > > from FreeBSD.org). I was going to download KDE, but came up on another > > stumbling point: Just which of the gadzillion files do I need. Boy, do I > > hate ftp! Just a list of file names with no description. > > Have you taken a look at the ports collection? There is a "metaport" that > installs everything you need for KDE in there - it's what I used and it > worked quite well. > > > But back to the topic of desktop managers like KDE. Does all X software run > > under all of them, or do you have to have different software (I mean > > applications) for, say, KDE and afterstep? I got the impression from KDE > > web site that applications must be written specifically for KDE... > > No, no. Any software written for X will run in X, regardless of the > window manager. There are applications written specifically for KDE which > will only run under KDE, but you can run any X application in KDE or > afterstep or FVWM... that's the whole nature of X. > > > ================== Quote of the Day ===================== > What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight - > it's the size of the fight in the dog. - Dwight D. Eisenhower > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 17:39:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E67914C17 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:39:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr09.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA17183; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:37:48 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr09.primenet.com(206.165.6.209) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd017157; Tue Apr 6 17:37:41 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr09.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id RAA29312; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:37:40 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904070037.RAA29312@usr09.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Good pic of chuck... To: kelly@plutotech.com (Sean Kelly) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:37:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: unfurl@dub.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <370A8DBB.5F08B428@plutotech.com> from "Sean Kelly" at Apr 6, 99 04:42:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > http://www.freebsdmall.com/advocacy/images/deamon-drink.jpg > > Our motto, "The Power to Serve," is a good one, but this isn't the image > I quite had in mind. It's been bugging me ever since I got my 3.1 CDs. > Maybe it's seeing Chuck's teeth ... but something's wrong here. Heh. "FreeBSD: Would you like fries with that?" Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 17:44:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A931561F for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:44:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10UgQS-0003jM-0A; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:42:41 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id BAA00615; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:42:13 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id BAA04139; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:40:21 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:40:21 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Gregory Sutter Cc: Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good pic of chuck... Message-ID: <19990407014021.V1360@marder-1.localhost> References: <19990406154443.B76969@dub.net> <19990406160508.J47697@001101.zer0.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990406160508.J47697@001101.zer0.org>; from Gregory Sutter on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 04:05:08PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 04:05:08PM -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > Aptenodytes forsteri tuxii (a.k.a. Aptenodytes forsterii grandrumpii). It all looks like ROT13 encoding to me :-) > > Greg > -- > Gregory S. Sutter My reality check just bounced. > mailto:gsutter@pobox.com > http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ > PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 18:35:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55DC6156F0; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:35:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id DAA60784; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 03:33:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Lightbulbs revisited From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 Apr 1999 03:33:35 +0200 Message-ID: Lines: 83 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Q) How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a light bulb? A) One thousand, one hundred and seventy-two: Twenty-three to complain to -current about the lights being out; Four to claim that it is a configuration problem, and that such matters really belong on -questions; Three to submit PRs about it, one of which is misfiled under doc and consists only of "it's dark"; One to commit an untested lightbulb which breaks buildworld, then back it out five minutes later; Eight to flame the PR originators for not including patches in their PRs; Five to complain about buildworld being broken; Thirty-one to answer that it works for them, and they must have cvsupped at a bad time; One to post a patch for a new lightbulb to -hackers; One to complain that he had patches for this three years ago, but when he sent them to -current they were just ignored, and he has had bad experiences with the PR system; besides, the proposed new lightbulb is non-reflexive; Thirty-seven to scream that lightbulbs do not belong in the base system, that committers have no right to do things like this without consulting the Community, and WHAT IS -CORE DOING ABOUT IT!? Two hundred to complain about the color of the bicycle shed; Three to point out that the patch breaks style(9); Seventeen to complain that the proposed new lightbulb is under GPL; Five hundred and eighty-six to engage in a flame war about the comparative advantages of the GPL, the BSD license, the MIT license, the NPL, and the personal hygiene of unnamed FSF founders; Seven to move various portions of the thread to -chat and -advocacy; One to commit the suggested lightbulb, even though it shines dimmer than the old one; Two to back it out with a furious flame of a commit message, arguing that FreeBSD is better off in the dark than with a dim lightbulb; Forty-six to argue vociferously about the backing out of the dim lightbulb and demanding a statement from -core; Eleven to request a smaller lightbulb so it will fit their Tamagotchi if we ever decide to port FreeBSD to that platform; Seventy-three to complain about the SNR on -hackers and -chat and unsubscribe in protest; Thirteen to post "unsubscribe", "How do I unsubscribe?", or "Please remove me from the list", followed by the usual footer; One to commit a working lightbulb while everybody is too busy flaming everybody else to notice; Thirty-one to point out that the new lightbulb would shine 0.364% brighter if compiled with TenDRA (although it will have to be reshaped into a cube), and that FreeBSD should therefore switch to TenDRA instead of EGCS; One to complain that the new lightbulb lacks fairings; Nine (including the PR originators) to ask "what is MFC?"; Fifty-seven to complain about the lights being out two weeks after the bulb has been changed. DES (with a little help from my friend) -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 18:43:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0875D15374 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10UhLI-0001I2-0A; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:41:24 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id CAA00716; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:41:15 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id CAA04395; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:34:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:58:23 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Gregory Sutter Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fatherless figures Message-ID: <19990407015823.Y1360@marder-1.localhost> References: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org> <19990405212819.P11572@futuresouth.com> <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com> <19990406191215.O1360@marder-1.localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990406191215.O1360@marder-1.localhost>; from Mark Ovens on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 07:12:15PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 07:12:15PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 09:42:32AM -0600, Sean Kelly wrote: > > > Don't forget Sutter Home vineyards. > > > Quite fine wine, I especially reccomend the Zinfandel. > > > > Not bad. For zinfandel, I absolutely adore Renwood. The 95 "grandpere" > > is spicy and full of character. Yum! Is it lunch time yet? (It's > > gotta be lunch time somewhere ... let's drink!) > > > > And you'll even find bottles of Sutter Home (a Merlot IIRC) in my > local pub here in England. In view of your comments, I might even > try a glass this evening :-) > and I did. Very pleasant too, a Merlot 1996, a touch dry for my taste but very nice. In fact I had two glasses, (Sean asked me to have one for him) -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 18:43:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 702CF14EF0 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:43:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10UhLJ-000P9p-0B; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:41:26 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id CAA00710; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:40:49 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id BAA04212; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:58:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:58:23 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Gregory Sutter Cc: "Matthew D. Fuller" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Fatherless figures Message-ID: <19990407015823.Y1360@marder-1.localhost> References: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org> <19990405212819.P11572@futuresouth.com> <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com> <19990406191215.O1360@marder-1.localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990406191215.O1360@marder-1.localhost>; from Mark Ovens on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 07:12:15PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 07:12:15PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 09:42:32AM -0600, Sean Kelly wrote: > > > Don't forget Sutter Home vineyards. > > > Quite fine wine, I especially reccomend the Zinfandel. > > > > Not bad. For zinfandel, I absolutely adore Renwood. The 95 "grandpere" > > is spicy and full of character. Yum! Is it lunch time yet? (It's > > gotta be lunch time somewhere ... let's drink!) > > > > And you'll even find bottles of Sutter Home (a Merlot IIRC) in my > local pub here in England. In view of your comments, I might even > try a glass this evening :-) > and I did. Very pleasant too, a Merlot 1996, a touch dry for my taste but very nice. In fact I had two glasses, (Sean asked me to have one for him) -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 18:43:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net (post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7C415248 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:43:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.10 #2) id 10UhLO-0006lR-0K; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:41:31 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id CAA00720; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:41:20 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id CAA04313; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:03:14 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:03:14 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Greg Lehey Cc: Ollivier Robert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wine (was: Fatherless figures) Message-ID: <19990407020313.Z1360@marder-1.localhost> References: <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com>; <19990406205447.A53891@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990406200824.QCCP5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990406233447.A600@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990407090214.N2142@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990407090214.N2142@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 09:02:14AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 09:02:14AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 6 April 1999 at 23:34:47 +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: > > According to Dan Langille: > >> At one time, I enjoyed wine several times a week, but over the past 5 > >> years or so, my consumption has dropped to almost nil. Mostly because of > >> the mountain biking... > > > > Well, I don't have this problem and since drinking good wine doesn't > > prevent me playing badminton... :-) > > You people have your priorities wrong. If your sport gets in the way > of drinking good wine, change your sport :-) > I can agree with that :-) What would you recommend as a good Australian wine? I have a bottle of Jacob's Creek Semillon Chardonnay chilling in the fridge although I much prefer the red. > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 18:50: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260A814EF0 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:49:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA11640; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:17:54 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA12982; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:17:52 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990407111752.W2142@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:17:52 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mark Ovens Cc: Ollivier Robert , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wine (was: Fatherless figures) References: <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com>; <19990406205447.A53891@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990406200824.QCCP5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990406233447.A600@keltia.freenix.fr> <19990407090214.N2142@lemis.com> <19990407020313.Z1360@marder-1.localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990407020313.Z1360@marder-1.localhost>; from Mark Ovens on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 02:03:14AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 7 April 1999 at 2:03:14 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 09:02:14AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Tuesday, 6 April 1999 at 23:34:47 +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: >>> According to Dan Langille: >>>> At one time, I enjoyed wine several times a week, but over the past 5 >>>> years or so, my consumption has dropped to almost nil. Mostly because of >>>> the mountain biking... >>> >>> Well, I don't have this problem and since drinking good wine doesn't >>> prevent me playing badminton... :-) >> >> You people have your priorities wrong. If your sport gets in the way >> of drinking good wine, change your sport :-) > > I can agree with that :-) What would you recommend as a good > Australian wine? I have a bottle of Jacob's Creek Semillon > Chardonnay chilling in the fridge although I much prefer the red. Hmm. I'm quite partial to the Semillon Chardonnays, though they tend to be a little sweet. We've tended to drink more Chenin Blanc for everyday use. We get given so many bottles of good wine that we haven't gone out looking for anything ourselves. It's a good arrangement, but it puts me in a poor position to recommend anything specific. Of course I can always say "If it's from McLaren Vale, it's got to be good", and if you find a bottle of Château Kuitpo (uit pronounced as the English word "eye"), you shouldn't pass it up. I think that, on the whole, the Australian reds are not as good as the whites. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 18:53:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D6F1516A for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:53:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA22000; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:51:19 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:51:19 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Mark Ovens Cc: Gregory Sutter , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wines(2) (Was Re: Fatherless figures) Message-ID: <19990406205119.V11572@futuresouth.com> References: <37094CDE.56F1268F@plutotech.com> <19990406000112.JCJL5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990405185530.F24767@001101.zer0.org> <19990405212819.P11572@futuresouth.com> <370A2B68.A3CECF83@plutotech.com> <19990406191215.O1360@marder-1.localhost> <19990407015823.Y1360@marder-1.localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990407015823.Y1360@marder-1.localhost>; from Mark Ovens on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 01:58:23AM +0100 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 01:58:23AM +0100, a little birdie told me that Mark Ovens remarked > > > > And you'll even find bottles of Sutter Home (a Merlot IIRC) in my > > local pub here in England. In view of your comments, I might even > > try a glass this evening :-) > > > > and I did. Very pleasant too, a Merlot 1996, a touch dry for my > taste but very nice. In fact I had two glasses, (Sean asked me to > have one for him) Indeed. I personally prefer their Merlot to their Zinfandel, but it seems to me that, as Merlot's go, theirs is lower on the 'overall' scale than is their Zinfandel. Wow, that was moderately ungrammatical and obfuscated. Have another glass, it'll get clearer ;) --- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 18:53:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DF6715093 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:53:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10UhVO-0001vZ-0A; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:51:51 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id CAA00755; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:51:24 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id CAA04507; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:49:35 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:49:35 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited Message-ID: <19990407024935.B4453@marder-1.localhost> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 03:33:35AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 03:33:35AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Q) How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a light bulb? > ROFLVVL :-) [answer snipped] -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 19: 2:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 457DD15093 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:02:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-020.thuntek.net [207.66.52.20]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id UAA22744; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:00:09 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <370ABBCC.67F3333F@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 19:58:36 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ... and one to point out that we've wasted many hours on chat discussing lightbulbs and nothing's ever come of it. -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 19:21:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119C7154D4 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:21:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA15439; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 19:20:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Donald Wilde Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 06 Apr 1999 19:58:36 MDT." <370ABBCC.67F3333F@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 19:20:06 -0700 Message-ID: <15437.923451606@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > ... and one to point out that we've wasted many hours on chat discussing > lightbulbs and nothing's ever come of it. Yeah yeah, OK, I'll take my lumps there like a man. :) I think perhaps my problem is that I've simply become too busy for chat and what started in fun has now become an irritation for somebody who gets as much email as myself. An excellent suggestion would probably be for me to unsubscribe to -chat, wouldn't it? Hmmmm. Damn, why didn't I think of that before? ;) - Jordan (who's just now gotten a clue and reduced his email flow by just a bit more). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 20:17:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E91114CE1 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 20:17:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Uiod-000GJ8-0C; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 03:15:47 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id EAA00862; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 04:15:16 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id EAA04847; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 04:13:29 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 02:12:48 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Sean Kelly Cc: Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Good pic of chuck... Message-ID: <19990407021248.A1360@marder-1.localhost> References: <19990406153908.A76847@dub.net> <370A8DBB.5F08B428@plutotech.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <370A8DBB.5F08B428@plutotech.com>; from Sean Kelly on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 04:42:03PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 04:42:03PM -0600, Sean Kelly wrote: > > http://www.freebsdmall.com/advocacy/images/deamon-drink.jpg > > Our motto, "The Power to Serve," is a good one, but this isn't the image > I quite had in mind. It's been bugging me ever since I got my 3.1 CDs. > Maybe it's seeing Chuck's teeth ... but something's wrong here. > I think the image at http://www.freebsdmall.com/advocacy/images/deamon-forklift.jpg also used at http://www.uk.freebsd.org/releases/ just cries out to be called "Keep on Chuckin'" (yeah,yeah, I know, ) > --Sean > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 21: 0:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from janus.syracuse.net (janus.syracuse.net [205.232.47.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE59A14E93 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 21:00:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from green@unixhelp.org) Received: from localhost (green@localhost) by janus.syracuse.net (8.9.2/8.8.7) with ESMTP id XAA58160; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:58:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:58:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Feldman X-Sender: green@janus.syracuse.net To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org *ROFL* That's getting posted on my wall! Brian Feldman _ __ ___ ____ ___ ___ ___ green@unixhelp.org _ __ ___ | _ ) __| \ FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! _ __ | _ \__ \ |) | http://www.freebsd.org _ |___/___/___/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 22:37:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6456157B5 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:37:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA12474; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:05:38 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA13337; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:05:36 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990407150536.G2142@lemis.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:05:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Donald Wilde Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited References: <370ABBCC.67F3333F@thuntek.net> <15437.923451606@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <15437.923451606@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 07:20:06PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 6 April 1999 at 19:20:06 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> ... and one to point out that we've wasted many hours on chat discussing >> lightbulbs and nothing's ever come of it. > > Yeah yeah, OK, I'll take my lumps there like a man. :) > > I think perhaps my problem is that I've simply become too busy for > chat and what started in fun has now become an irritation for somebody > who gets as much email as myself. An excellent suggestion would > probably be for me to unsubscribe to -chat, wouldn't it? Hmmmm. > Damn, why didn't I think of that before? ;) > > - Jordan (who's just now gotten a clue and reduced his email flow by just > a bit more). > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message unsubscribe -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 22:48: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 601D5150B6 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 22:47:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from outpost.co.nz (b001-m006-p060.wgtn.clear.net.nz [203.167.241.124]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA06369; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:45:29 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199904070545.RAA06369@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> Received: (qmail 7513 invoked from network); 7 Apr 1999 02:53:02 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.acme.gen.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by evil-smelling-bugger.acme.gen.nz with SMTP; 7 Apr 1999 02:53:02 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:52:41 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Wine (was: Fatherless figures) Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz In-reply-to: <19990407111752.W2142@lemis.com> References: <19990407020313.Z1360@marder-1.localhost>; from Mark Ovens on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 02:03:14AM +0100 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > I think that, on the whole, the Australian reds are not as good as > the whites. [In the thickest Australian accent you can muster:] "A lot of people in this country pooh-pooh Australian table wines......." -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 6 23:19:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.albertons.com (ns.albertsons.com [204.200.28.220]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2495D151D5 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 1999 23:19:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eric_floerchinger@albertsons.com) Received: from S7352c.7000.albertsons.com (S7352c.7000.albertsons.com [167.234.12.204]) by ns.albertons.com (AIX4.3/UCB 8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA13076 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:05:02 -0600 From: eric_floerchinger@albertsons.com Received: from xprimary.7000.albertsons.com by S7352c.7000.albertsons.com (AIX 3.2/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA227230; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:19:02 -0600 Received: by xprimary.7000.albertsons.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) id <2F85QN0L>; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:15:47 -0600 Message-Id: <6003A12BBDC9D011A32D0001FA7E022109060BBF@xprimary.7000.albertsons.com> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: VIRUES ALERT - HAPPY99.EXE Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:15:47 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.1960.3) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yeah except when they're *FORCED* to use such crappy products at work... X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange 5.0 blah! > ---------- > From: Ollivier Robert[SMTP:roberto@keltia.freenix.fr] > Reply To: FreeBSD Chat Mailing List > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 1999 12:06 AM > To: freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: VIRUES ALERT - HAPPY99.EXE > > According to Benjamin George: > > Do NOT execute the file "happy99.exe" on any Windows machine... it IS a > > virus! Sorry, I did not mean to send it... my little sister infected > > our computer with it. > > Don't worry, sensible people don't use Winlose software to read the > FreeBSD > lists [ducks and runs] > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- > roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #70: Sat Feb 27 09:43:08 CET 1999 > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hardware" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 0:58:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from caladan.tdx.co.uk (caladan.tdx.co.uk [195.188.177.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 829C7155FF for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 00:58:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kpielorz@tdx.co.uk) Received: from tdx.co.uk (lorca-tx.tdx.co.uk [195.188.177.242]) by caladan.tdx.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3/Kp) with ESMTP id IAA24041; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:56:07 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <370B0F96.881A0503@tdx.co.uk> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 08:56:06 +0100 From: Karl Pielorz Organization: TDX - The Digital eXchange X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Q) How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a light bulb? You forgot the one poor person who points out that Linux, infact has always had two light bulbs, and the other three who point out that neither of them actually work... :-) -Kp To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 1: 9:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stade.demon.co.uk (stade.demon.co.uk [158.152.29.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7A4A15743 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:09:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA49804 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:42:54 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:42:54 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wine (was: Fatherless figures) Message-ID: <19990407084254.B27106@titus.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk References: <19990407020313.Z1360@marder-1.localhost>; <19990407111752.W2142@lemis.com> <199904070545.RAA06369@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199904070545.RAA06369@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz>; from Craig Harding on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 02:52:41PM +1200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 02:52:41PM +1200, Craig Harding wrote: > "A lot of people in this country pooh-pooh Australian table > wines......." How times, and Australian wine making, have changed. Who remembers "This is not a wine for drinking. It is a wine for laying down and avoiding." This used to be genericly true - and is now usually false. -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 1:36:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A68511527D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 01:36:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.32]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA34F3; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:34:48 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13926; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:34:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990407000432.A69894@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 10:34:58 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Nik Clayton Subject: Re: FreeBSD = ? Cc: chat@freebsd.org, Dan Langille Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 06-Apr-99 Nik Clayton wrote: > On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 04:02:58PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: >> [no, they're not devils, they're daemons] > > "They're not devils, they're martians!" Been listening to War of the Worlds a little too much Nik? =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The idea does not replace the work... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 3:21:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD4514D12 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 03:21:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id TAA26974; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:19:26 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <370B2D49.69891FA7@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 19:02:49 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Q) How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a light bulb? > > A) One thousand, one hundred and seventy-two: [etc] This is the new text explaining to new committers how things works around here, right? I noticed a few places where you could name names to make it clearer to the beginners, but I suppose you wanted them to have the sense of satisfaction of identifying our folkloric figures. :-) BTW, I didn't see any mention of perl scripts... -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "nothing better than the ability to perform cunning linguistics" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 5:57: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (wya-lfd85.hotmail.com [207.82.252.149]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 717C414F7D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 05:56:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from caldwell_david@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 77817 invoked by uid 0); 7 Apr 1999 12:54:58 -0000 Message-ID: <19990407125458.77816.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 152.175.146.170 by wy1lg.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 07 Apr 1999 05:54:47 PDT X-Originating-IP: [152.175.146.170] From: "David Caldwell" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Lets see what kind of response I can generate Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 05:54:47 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hello Again, I am David Caldwell and I generated quite a response from a question I proposed to the group some time ago about teaching my children a better OS than Microstuff point and click. Time restraints have kept me from doing anything with this, but as soon as time permits (and good equipment falls into place) I'll send the results. Here is my latest question: I need A Virtual Private Network...here's the details: I work for the cheapest company around, so money constraints are tight (which makes anything other the multi copper lines out of the question...no adsl or isdn). Here's the proposal I have been working on: I want to put together a Pentium machine (from existing surplus) with 3 good 56K modems and a nic and proxy this up to the network while utilizing all three of the current isp accounts we have (only two are being used currently and very limited use at that). I came up with this idea when trying to get them better access to the net. In turn this company has some 20+ remote sites with as many as 250 users spread out over those sites. I propose to put a similar box in at each site and set up acounts with the local ISPs so they will also have access. Now can this same box be used for the VPN with encryption and firewalls set up or will I have to set up a second box. Are there any open source firewall progs that are effective or should I look for a commercial setup. Same goes for the encryption...commercial or open source. Any and all input is welcome... By the way...how do I register for Chat here???? David Caldwell (The Unix Inept...but creative...LOL) _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 6:44:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sun-1.crystalsugar.com. (unknown [207.0.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C392314DA5 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 06:44:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danderso@crystalsugar.com) Received: from sun-1.crystalsugar.com by sun-1.crystalsugar.com. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA17295; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:42:43 -0500 Received: from ngw.crystalsugar.com (mail.crystalsugar.com [207.0.65.31]) by ns.crystalsugar.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA24424 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:42:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from JCEDO-Message_Server by ngw.crystalsugar.com with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 07 Apr 1999 08:42:08 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 08:42:00 -0500 From: "Dale Anderson" To: Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And one more to note that Windows never had a light bulb, but wil now = steal FreeBSD's and call it there own. :) >>> Karl Pielorz 04/07/99 02:56AM >>> Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: =20 > Q) How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a light bulb? You forgot the one poor person who points out that Linux, infact has = always had two light bulbs, and the other three who point out that neither of = them actually work... :-) -Kp To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org=20 with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 8: 2:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sonic.digital-web.net (sonic.digital-web.net [216.65.27.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE40E14D72 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 08:02:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Received: from localhost (jmscott@localhost) by sonic.digital-web.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10535; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:56:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:56:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: jmscott@sonic.digital-web.net Reply-To: Joseph Scott To: David Caldwell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lets see what kind of response I can generate In-Reply-To: <19990407125458.77816.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, David Caldwell wrote: > I want to put together a Pentium machine (from existing surplus) with > 3 good 56K modems and a nic and proxy this up to the network while > utilizing all three of the current isp accounts we have (only two are > being used currently and very limited use at that). I came up with > this idea when trying to get them better access to the net. > > In turn this company has some 20+ remote sites with as many as 250 > users spread out over those sites. I propose to put a similar box in > at each site and set up acounts with the local ISPs so they will also > have access. > > Now can this same box be used for the VPN with encryption and > firewalls set up or will I have to set up a second box. Are there any > open source firewall progs that are effective or should I look for a > commercial setup. Same goes for the encryption...commercial or open > source. The ORielly VPN book just came out with a 2nd Edition, one of the things it covers is vpn using ssh and linux, which should be fairly straight forward to adapt to shh and freebsd. This would provide you with a low cost setup. > > Any and all input is welcome... > > By the way...how do I register for Chat here???? If you are asking how to sign up for the freebsd-chat mailing list, see : http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-MAIL > > David Caldwell > (The Unix Inept...but creative...LOL) > Joseph Scott joseph@randomnetworks.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 9:10:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A66015849 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 09:10:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Uus4-000BcG-0C; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:08:08 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id RAA02580; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:08:02 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id RAA02123; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:04:55 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:04:55 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Adrian Wontroba Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wine (was: Fatherless figures) Message-ID: <19990407170455.C2018@marder-1.localhost> References: <19990407020313.Z1360@marder-1.localhost>; <19990407111752.W2142@lemis.com> <199904070545.RAA06369@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> <19990407084254.B27106@titus.stade.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990407084254.B27106@titus.stade.co.uk>; from Adrian Wontroba on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 08:42:54AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 08:42:54AM +0100, Adrian Wontroba wrote: > On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 02:52:41PM +1200, Craig Harding wrote: > > "A lot of people in this country pooh-pooh Australian table > > wines......." > > How times, and Australian wine making, have changed. Who remembers > "This is not a wine for drinking. It is a wine for laying down and > avoiding." This used to be genericly true - and is now usually false. > Are you referring to the early '80's when Yates' Wine Lodge used to sell Australian White, from 100 gallon barrels behind the bar, that looked and tasted like cheap cooking sherry but was a cheap way to get pissed on Saturday (or any other day) night? If so, then I remember, hic :-) > -- > Adrian Wontroba > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 10:49:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pluto.plutotech.com (mail.plutotech.com [206.168.67.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0A2D1582E for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 10:49:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Received: from plutotech.com (kelly@tampopo.plutotech.com [206.168.67.161]) by pluto.plutotech.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA73876; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 11:47:17 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from kelly@plutotech.com) Message-ID: <370B9A25.516F7561@plutotech.com> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 1999 11:47:17 -0600 From: Sean Kelly Organization: Pluto Technologies X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aw1@stade.co.uk Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wine (was: Fatherless figures) References: <19990407020313.Z1360@marder-1.localhost>; <19990407111752.W2142@lemis.com> <199904070545.RAA06369@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> <19990407084254.B27106@titus.stade.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > How times, and Australian wine making, have changed. Who remembers > "This is not a wine for drinking. It is a wine for laying down and > avoiding." This used to be genericly true - and is now usually false. Agreed. One of my favorite bottles to come out of the land of Oz is Penfolds cabernet/shiraz blend, with a taste of peppercorns and blackberries. Yum! --Sean To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 12:32:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 088B31585A for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:32:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) id UAA79749; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 20:11:29 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 20:11:29 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited Message-ID: <19990407201128.B78880@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Dag-Erling Smorgrav on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 03:33:35AM +0200 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 03:33:35AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > Q) How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a light bulb? > > A) One thousand, one hundred and seventy-two: [...] I was laughing quite hard at this. And then I thought, "Hang on, shouldn't there be '1 to document it.' in that list somewhere?" And then I was enlightened :-) N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 12:33:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB7421585E for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 12:32:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) id UAA79297; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 20:07:54 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 20:07:54 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Nik Clayton , chat@freebsd.org, Dan Langille Subject: Re: FreeBSD = ? Message-ID: <19990407200754.A78880@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19990407000432.A69894@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 10:34:58AM +0200 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 10:34:58AM +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 06-Apr-99 Nik Clayton wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 06, 1999 at 04:02:58PM +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > >> [no, they're not devils, they're daemons] > > > > "They're not devils, they're martians!" > > Been listening to War of the Worlds a little too much Nik? =) Yes. Bought the W98 game the other day. *Very* pretty intro. Games like that are the only reason I have a W98 box . N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 14:48:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eagle.phc.igs.net (eagle.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEC0D14CF3 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 14:48:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@eagle.phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by eagle.phc.igs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA85015; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:44:00 GMT (envelope-from eagle@eagle.phc.igs.net) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:44:00 +0000 (GMT) From: eagle To: Nik Clayton Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited In-Reply-To: <19990407201128.B78880@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 7 Apr 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 03:33:35AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Q) How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a light bulb? > > > > A) One thousand, one hundred and seventy-two: > > [...] > > I was laughing quite hard at this. > > And then I thought, "Hang on, shouldn't there be '1 to document it.' > in that list somewhere?" > > And then I was enlightened :-) > you trying to say even when there joking the documentation gets left out nik ? rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 15:12:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0809158BD for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:12:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id IAA16953; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:10:29 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990408081025.21350@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 08:10:25 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Karl Pielorz Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited References: <370B0F96.881A0503@tdx.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <370B0F96.881A0503@tdx.co.uk>; from Karl Pielorz on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 08:56:06AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 08:56:06AM +0100, Karl Pielorz wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > Q) How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a light bulb? > > You forgot the one poor person who points out that Linux, infact has always > had two light bulbs, and the other three who point out that neither of them > actually work... At least we wouldn't need one to remind us that Macintosh has sensibly never provided lightbulbs because users might get burned, electricuted, cut themselves on broken glass, or go blind staring at it wondering what to do with it :-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 15:50:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2F4B14BF3 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:50:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA16560; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:49:16 -0600 Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpds.tP7a; Wed Apr 7 16:49:07 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA22840; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 15:48:00 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904072248.PAA22840@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited To: nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (Nik Clayton) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 22:47:59 +0000 (GMT) Cc: des@flood.ping.uio.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990407201128.B78880@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> from "Nik Clayton" at Apr 7, 99 08:11:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Q) How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a light bulb? > > > > A) One thousand, one hundred and seventy-two: > > [...] > > I was laughing quite hard at this. > > And then I thought, "Hang on, shouldn't there be '1 to document it.' > in that list somewhere?" > > And then I was enlightened :-) I'm pretty sure that it was supposed to be in place of: ] One to commit a working lightbulb while everybody is too busy flaming ] everybody else to notice; Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 16: 9:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B7E415950 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:09:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA35302; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:08:05 -0600 Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpdNYEWEa; Wed Apr 7 17:07:53 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA24204; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 16:06:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904072306.QAA24204@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Lets see what kind of response I can generate To: caldwell_david@hotmail.com (David Caldwell) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 23:06:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990407125458.77816.qmail@hotmail.com> from "David Caldwell" at Apr 7, 99 05:54:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Here is my latest question: > > I need A Virtual Private Network...here's the details: > > I work for the cheapest company around, so money constraints are tight > (which makes anything other the multi copper lines out of the > question...no adsl or isdn). > > Here's the proposal I have been working on: > > I want to put together a Pentium machine (from existing surplus) with > 3 good 56K modems and a nic and proxy this up to the network while > utilizing all three of the current isp accounts we have (only two are > being used currently and very limited use at that). I came up with > this idea when trying to get them better access to the net. I'd suggest an InterJet, but it can't do 3 modems (hardware, not software, limitation). Depending on the service area, I wouldn't rule out ISDN. If you can find an ISP in your LATA, you can get a Centrex based soloution with no message units, and virtual full time connection (ISP brings up the link when there are incoming packets) for the same price as your ISP with 3 accounts. The RBOC itself is also an option. US West is now flat rate in some areas, where it was message-unit based before (e.g., my dad has a US West connection for $70/Month that includes 2 B channels for 128k, two POTS breakouts off the CSU/DSU -- a Netopia? -- for his FAX machine and a Western Union machine. The POTS can take over 1 B channel, as needed, for inbound POTS traffic, while keeping the network link up). There is also a lot of DSL being deployed in various areas, though generally only within spitting distance (1.5 miles) of the LATA. Nicole Harrington (of BAFUG fame) works for a company that does the cable modem thing, last I heard, and that may be an option as well. Also, be aware that ISP's monitor uptime on a per account basis; if you go with the 56k soloution, if you aren't already paying "business account" rates on the accounts, expect to be soon. A modem is one of an ISP's most overcomiited resources. > In turn this company has some 20+ remote sites with as many as 250 > users spread out over those sites. I propose to put a similar box in > at each site and set up acounts with the local ISPs so they will also > have access. > > Now can this same box be used for the VPN with encryption and > firewalls set up or will I have to set up a second box. Are there any > open source firewall progs that are effective or should I look for a > commercial setup. Same goes for the encryption...commercial or open > source. If the same box is a FreeBSD box, it's possible. FreeBSD doesn't support VPN by itself (though the FreeBSD based InterJet supports Microsoft-style GRE based VPN), since it doesn't have the software support (an integrated IPv6 with IPSEC would do the trick, but FreeBSD has held off integrating IPv6. This has the plus that INRIA, KAME, and NRL have been able to get together on integration, but the minus that an unmodified FreeBSD can't do what you need at this time). > Any and all input is welcome... I noticed someone else suggested and ssh based soloution. The drawback with using ssh is that it (1) won't work through all firewalls, and (2) is only client-to-UNIX (or UNIX-to-UNIX). If the intent is to VPN a bunch of disparately located Windows machines into a single "network neighborhood", ssh is not an answer. An InterJet can do this, with a limit on the point-to-point VPN connections, and will even proxy nmbd correctly so that the "network neighborhood" is unified between the locations; you'd have to send mail to Archie Cobb to get the exact list of limitations that this would impose. Your bandwidth requirements are generally outside the scope of a modem-only soloution for an InterJet at this time, though... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 17:45:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4055915912 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 17:45:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA17012; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:13:14 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA19701; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:13:11 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990408101311.J2142@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 10:13:11 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Nik Clayton , Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited References: <19990407201128.B78880@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990407201128.B78880@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 08:11:29PM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 7 April 1999 at 20:11:29 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 03:33:35AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: >> Q) How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a light bulb? >> >> A) One thousand, one hundred and seventy-two: > > [...] > > I was laughing quite hard at this. > > And then I thought, "Hang on, shouldn't there be '1 to document it.' > in that list somewhere?" > > And then I was enlightened :-) Well, I think this might make a worthwhile addition to the handbook. How about a humour section? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 19:21:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF0C014D3B for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:21:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.2/8.9.1) id TAA88662 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:19:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 19:19:34 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Head count for April San Francisco BAFUG meeting Message-ID: <19990407191934.A88647@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 7 21:59:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stade.demon.co.uk (stade.demon.co.uk [158.152.29.164]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3974714CE7 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 1999 21:59:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA31974 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 05:24:38 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 05:24:38 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wine (was: Fatherless figures) Message-ID: <19990408052438.B31509@titus.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk References: <19990407020313.Z1360@marder-1.localhost>; <19990407111752.W2142@lemis.com> <199904070545.RAA06369@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> <19990407084254.B27106@titus.stade.co.uk> <19990407170455.C2018@marder-1.localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990407170455.C2018@marder-1.localhost>; from Mark Ovens on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 05:04:55PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 05:04:55PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > Are you referring to the early '80's when Yates' Wine Lodge used > .... No. To Monty Python. But I had a real shock when I entered the Solihull Yates recently. They're considerably more upmarket than they were 20 years ago. Now, why are we Brits talking about booze in at least two FreeBSD lists? -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 8 1:33: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C84BB158A5 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:32:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA19067; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:00:55 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id SAA21865; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:00:45 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990408180045.D2142@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:00:45 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: aw1@stade.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Wine (was: Fatherless figures) References: <19990407020313.Z1360@marder-1.localhost>; <19990407111752.W2142@lemis.com> <199904070545.RAA06369@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> <19990407084254.B27106@titus.stade.co.uk> <19990407170455.C2018@marder-1.localhost> <19990408052438.B31509@titus.stade.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990408052438.B31509@titus.stade.co.uk>; from Adrian Wontroba on Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 05:24:38AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 8 April 1999 at 5:24:38 +0100, Adrian Wontroba wrote: > On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 05:04:55PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: >> Are you referring to the early '80's when Yates' Wine Lodge used >> .... > > No. To Monty Python. But I had a real shock when I entered the Solihull > Yates recently. They're considerably more upmarket than they were 20 > years ago. > > Now, why are we Brits talking about booze in at least two FreeBSD > lists? Don't know. Let's talk about Vinum instead. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 8 1:50:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E4A4158FB for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:50:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990408084955.GXER5752963.mta2-rme@wocker>; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:49:55 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Greg Lehey Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:48:12 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Wine (was: Fatherless figures) Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <19990408180045.D2142@lemis.com> References: <19990408052438.B31509@titus.stade.co.uk>; from Adrian Wontroba on Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 05:24:38AM +0100 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990408084955.GXER5752963.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 Apr 99, at 18:00, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 8 April 1999 at 5:24:38 +0100, Adrian Wontroba wrote: > > Now, why are we Brits talking about booze in at least two FreeBSD > > lists? > > Don't know. Let's talk about Vinum instead. OK. Who knew this was going to be Greg talking about Vinum before you opened the msg? [I did] -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 8 1:50:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cimlogic.com.au (cimlog.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.51.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6243158FB for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 01:50:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jb@cimlogic.com.au) Received: (from jb@localhost) by cimlogic.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA26144; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:54:05 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jb) From: John Birrell Message-Id: <199904080854.SAA26144@cimlogic.com.au> Subject: Re: Wine (was: Fatherless figures) In-Reply-To: <19990408180045.D2142@lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Apr 8, 1999 6: 0:45 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 18:54:05 +1000 (EST) Cc: aw1@stade.co.uk, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 8 April 1999 at 5:24:38 +0100, Adrian Wontroba wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 05:04:55PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > >> Are you referring to the early '80's when Yates' Wine Lodge used > >> .... > > > > No. To Monty Python. But I had a real shock when I entered the Solihull > > Yates recently. They're considerably more upmarket than they were 20 > > years ago. > > > > Now, why are we Brits talking about booze in at least two FreeBSD > > lists? > > Don't know. Let's talk about Vinum instead. Is that a red or a white? 8-) -- John Birrell - jb@cimlogic.com.au; jb@freebsd.org http://www.cimlogic.com.au/ CIMlogic Pty Ltd, GPO Box 117A, Melbourne Vic 3001, Australia +61 418 353 137 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 8 6: 6: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EED314E39 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 06:06:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id XAA13269; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:04:04 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990408230403.C13213@caamora.com.au> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:04:03 +1000 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: freebsd user group - sydney Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hello all, just to let you all know that we have gotten a freebsd user group started in sydney nsw australia. our next meeting is scheduled for sunday, 9th may at 1 pm our venue will be announced when we know more accurately how many are likely to be there, so please email or post to teh postal adress in teh signiture, below. thank you regards jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 8 6:36:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB66D150E4 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 06:36:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10VEwx-000Evq-0C; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:34:32 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA03040; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 14:33:28 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id NAA04356; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:38:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 13:38:19 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Adrian Wontroba Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Wine (was: Fatherless figures) Message-ID: <19990408133819.H2997@marder-1.localhost> References: <19990407020313.Z1360@marder-1.localhost>; <19990407111752.W2142@lemis.com> <199904070545.RAA06369@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> <19990407084254.B27106@titus.stade.co.uk> <19990407170455.C2018@marder-1.localhost> <19990408052438.B31509@titus.stade.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990408052438.B31509@titus.stade.co.uk>; from Adrian Wontroba on Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 05:24:38AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 05:24:38AM +0100, Adrian Wontroba wrote: > > Now, why are we Brits talking about booze in at least two FreeBSD > lists? > Because it makes a change from, and is more interesting than, Microsoft or Linux? > -- > Adrian Wontroba > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 8 11:22: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2433B14D0E for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:21:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.2/8.9.1) id LAA56237 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:19:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 11:19:51 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Civilization: CTP Message-ID: <19990408111951.A56189@wopr.caltech.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So... has anybody attempted to run the Civilization: CTP beta under FreeBSD's Linux emulation yet? -- Matthew Hunt * UNIX is a lever for the http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * intellect. -J.R. Mashey To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 8 12: 0:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2C0F14C3B for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:00:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) id TAA55706; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:52:04 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:52:03 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Greg Lehey Cc: Nik Clayton , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited Message-ID: <19990408195202.A55297@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19990407201128.B78880@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <19990408101311.J2142@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990408101311.J2142@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 10:13:11AM +0930 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 10:13:11AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 7 April 1999 at 20:11:29 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 03:33:35AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > >> Q) How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a light bulb? [...] > > And then I was enlightened :-) > > Well, I think this might make a worthwhile addition to the handbook. > How about a humour section? "Bring out your diffs. Bring out your diffs. . ." N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 8 12:25: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A35214DC9 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 12:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10VKNq-0000sS-0B; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 19:22:38 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id UAA03974; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:21:41 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id UAA04924; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:19:17 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 20:19:17 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Nik Clayton Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited Message-ID: <19990408201916.L2997@marder-1.localhost> References: <19990407201128.B78880@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <19990408101311.J2142@lemis.com> <19990408195202.A55297@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990408195202.A55297@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 07:52:03PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 07:52:03PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 10:13:11AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Wednesday, 7 April 1999 at 20:11:29 +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 03:33:35AM +0200, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > >> Q) How many FreeBSD hackers does it take to change a light bulb? > [...] > > > And then I was enlightened :-) > > > > Well, I think this might make a worthwhile addition to the handbook. > > How about a humour section? > > "Bring out your diffs. Bring out your diffs. . ." > Q: How does a UNIX guru have sex? A: unzip;strip;touch;finger;mount;fsck;more;yes;umount;sleep Q: How do you tell if he needs Viagra? A: nologin Q: What does he (or she) do when his/her Significant Other isn't in the mood? A: finger @localhost > N > -- > Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 8 15: 4: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77F8414C20 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:04:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) id XAA80118; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:01:54 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:01:54 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Mark Ovens Cc: Nik Clayton , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited Message-ID: <19990408230154.A79940@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <19990407201128.B78880@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <19990408101311.J2142@lemis.com> <19990408195202.A55297@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <19990408201916.L2997@marder-1.localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990408201916.L2997@marder-1.localhost>; from Mark Ovens on Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 08:19:17PM +0100 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 08:19:17PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > Q: How does a UNIX guru have sex? > > A: unzip;strip;touch;finger;mount;fsck;more;yes;umount;sleep ;zzz N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 8 15: 4:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (pinnacle.internet.co.nz [210.48.55.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D76F14C20 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:04:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jonc@pinnacle.co.nz) Received: from kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz [202.37.163.2]) by kiwi.pinnacle.co.nz (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01816; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:00:01 +1200 (NZST) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 10:00:01 +1200 (NZST) From: Jonathan Chen To: Matthew Hunt Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Civilization: CTP In-Reply-To: <19990408111951.A56189@wopr.caltech.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 8 Apr 1999, Matthew Hunt wrote: > So... has anybody attempted to run the Civilization: CTP beta > under FreeBSD's Linux emulation yet? Hm. I just bought this for Windows *just* last night - didn't realise there was a Linux version for it. -- Jonathan Chen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 8 15:45:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A2514DEE for ; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 15:45:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10VNVq-0006Hl-0A; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 22:43:06 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA04507; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:42:30 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id XAA05335; Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:40:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1999 23:40:12 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Nik Clayton Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Lightbulbs revisited Message-ID: <19990408234012.O2997@marder-1.localhost> References: <19990407201128.B78880@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <19990408101311.J2142@lemis.com> <19990408195202.A55297@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <19990408201916.L2997@marder-1.localhost> <19990408230154.A79940@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990408230154.A79940@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 11:01:54PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 11:01:54PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > On Thu, Apr 08, 1999 at 08:19:17PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > > Q: How does a UNIX guru have sex? > > > > A: unzip;strip;touch;finger;mount;fsck;more;yes;umount;sleep > ;zzz > Didn't know about that one, not having a laptop. Mind you, I guess the question should be changed to a FreeBSD guru as zzz(8) seems to be a FreeBSD utility. > N > -- > Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 9 3: 0:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.caamora.com.au (jonath5.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.41.237]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C018B15399 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 03:00:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jon@gw.caamora.com.au) Received: (from jon@localhost) by gw.caamora.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA15377; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 19:58:40 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from jon) Message-ID: <19990409195839.G14399@caamora.com.au> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 19:58:39 +1000 From: jonathan michaels To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: freebsd user group, sydney Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD gw.caamora.com.au 2.2.7-RELEASE i386 X-Mood: i'm alive, if it counts Organisation: Caamora, PO Box 144, Rosebery NSW 1445 Australia Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org all, # OOPS # to teh people on chat and newbies, sorry, i'm posting this # again, sun 9th may is mothers day. just to let you all know that we have gotten a freebsd user group started in sydney nsw australia. our next meeting is scheduled for sunday, 9th may at 1 pm i have just been informed that this is motherday, looks like we will need to shift teh date back a week, stay tuned our venue will be announced when we know more accurately how many are likely to be there, so please email or post to teh postal adress in teh signiture, below. thank you and please accept my apologies for the cross post, my hands are getting sore. regards jonathan -- =============================================================================== Jonathan Michaels PO Box 144, Rosebery, NSW 1445 Australia =========================================================== To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 9 14:38:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49E00151CF for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:33:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA00535; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:31:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904092131.OAA00535@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Viren R. Shah" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: seti@home clients In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 09 Apr 1999 15:59:44 EDT." <199904091959.PAA05358@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 09 Apr 1999 14:31:23 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why are these people looking for "Aliens" ??? Don't they know they are called linuxians and microsoftians!! Amancio > > Well, they don't have the FreeBSD client out yet, but the Linux client > works well. > > http://seti.ssl.berkeley.edu/ > > It is still in beta though. > > Viren > -- > Viren R. Shah > WindowsNT:n. 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an > 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, > written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 9 14:40: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com (assurance.rstcorp.com [206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D04162BC for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:39:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04474; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:38:29 -0400 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma004466; Fri, 9 Apr 99 21:37:56 GMT Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA02146; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id RAA07894; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 17:36:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904092136.RAA07894@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: Keith Woodman Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: seti@home clients In-Reply-To: References: <199904091959.PAA05358@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>> "Keith" == Keith Woodman writes: Keith> Can I ask what the is regarding? Keith> Could this be the seti radio astronamy deal that I've been Keith> hearing about? Yup. They are trying to use distributed clients to help them process the data they are getting from the radio telescopes. >> http://seti.ssl.berkeley.edu/ Viren -- Viren R. Shah | Nibley's Gas Law of Learning: viren@rstcorp.com | Any amount of learning, however small, http://www.rstcorp.com/~vshah/ | will expand to fill any intellectual void, Reliable Software Technologies | however large. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 9 15: 6:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nefertiti.lightningweb.com (nefertiti.lightningweb.com [198.68.191.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA21515F13 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:43:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keith@lightningweb.com) Received: from localhost (keith@localhost) by nefertiti.lightningweb.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03824; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:14:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:14:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Keith Woodman To: "Viren R. Shah" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: seti@home clients In-Reply-To: <199904091959.PAA05358@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can I ask what the is regarding? Could this be the seti radio astronamy deal that I've been hearing about? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Woodman Technical Coordinator Keith@lightningweb.com Lightningweb LLC pid 7962 (sniffit), uid 0: exited on signal 10 (core dumped) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Viren R. Shah wrote: > > Well, they don't have the FreeBSD client out yet, but the Linux client > works well. > > http://seti.ssl.berkeley.edu/ > > It is still in beta though. > > Viren > -- > Viren R. Shah > WindowsNT:n. 32-bit extensions and a graphical shell for a 16-bit patch to an > 8-bit operating system originally coded for a 4-bit microprocessor, > written by a 2-bit company that can't stand for 1 bit of competition. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 9 15: 6:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nefertiti.lightningweb.com (nefertiti.lightningweb.com [198.68.191.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E16FE15F42 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keith@lightningweb.com) Received: from localhost (keith@localhost) by nefertiti.lightningweb.com (8.8.7/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA05193; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:45:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 1999 14:45:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Keith Woodman To: "Viren R. Shah" Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: seti@home clients In-Reply-To: <199904092136.RAA07894@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sign me up. I had no idea they were going to be having software to allow FreeBSD to do this. Great. Where can I get more info on this? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Woodman Technical Coordinator Keith@lightningweb.com Lightningweb LLC pid 7962 (sniffit), uid 0: exited on signal 10 (core dumped) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Fri, 9 Apr 1999, Viren R. Shah wrote: > >>>>> "Keith" == Keith Woodman writes: > > Keith> Can I ask what the is regarding? > Keith> Could this be the seti radio astronamy deal that I've been > Keith> hearing about? > > Yup. They are trying to use distributed clients to help them process > the data they are getting from the radio telescopes. > > > >> http://seti.ssl.berkeley.edu/ > > > Viren > -- > Viren R. Shah | Nibley's Gas Law of Learning: > viren@rstcorp.com | Any amount of learning, however small, > http://www.rstcorp.com/~vshah/ | will expand to fill any intellectual void, > Reliable Software Technologies | however large. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 9 18:27:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from corp.au.triax.com (slwag2p14.ozemail.com.au [203.108.157.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEDA814EC3; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 18:27:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jim@corp.au.triax.com) Received: (from jim@localhost) by corp.au.triax.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA08398; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:25:00 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:25:00 +1000 From: Jim Mock To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: The Advocacy Project web site Message-ID: <19990410112459.A8358@corp.au.triax.com> Reply-To: jim@corp.au.triax.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi folks, As you may or may not know, Rob Garrett and myself have been appointed co-webmasters for the advocacy project. We've spent the last week or so putting together the framework for the new advocacy pages (which will be put into the FreeBSD www tree in about two weeks or so), and we'd like some input and info from all of you. We've got a prototype of the site up temporarily at http://www.ghis.net/~jim/FreeBSD/ . What we're looking for is the following: o Updated user group information. If you've started or belong to a user group, please check the site to a) make sure your group is listed, b) make sure the info there is accurate, and c) if it isn't, please send us updates. o Pictures from user group meetings and/or other events. o News and press releases. Anything you've stumbled across (web sites, magazine or ezine articles, etc.) that feature FreeBSD would be appreciated. We want to keep the news and press sections as updated as possible. o Articles. URLs to any articles about FreeBSD or if you'd like to write an "advocacy" article (such as starting a user group, etc.) let us know. o PowerPoint or MagicPoint presentations. o Links, graphics, pictures (I already mentioned that) and anything else you can find that should be on the advocacy site. Btw, if/when you go to the web site, there are some links that aren't working (everything under 'In the Press', and a few others). We're still working on that stuff. We need content for those pages, which is the reason for this message. If you've got anything you'd like to contribute, please get in touch with either Rob or myself and we'll go from there. If you've got pictures we can use, please either tar them up and put them somewhere we can grab them, or give us the URL to them and we'll grab them. Please don't send us a giant tarball by email. If you don't have anywhere to put them, let me know and I'll give you somewhere to upload them. Later, -- Jim Mock System Administrator jim@corp.au.triax.com ,-._|\ FreeBSD work: Triax Internet Services http://www.triax.com/ / \ The personal: http://www.triax.com/~jim/ \_,--._/ Power To The FreeBSD 'zine http://www.freebsdzine.org/ v Serve! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 9 22:40: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from terror.hungry.com (terror.hungry.com [199.181.107.40]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CC23B14D51 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 1999 22:40:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fn@hungry.com) Received: (qmail 28376 invoked by uid 0); 10 Apr 1999 05:37:53 -0000 Received: from siren.hungry.com (undead@199.181.107.129) by terror.hungry.com with SMTP; 10 Apr 1999 05:37:53 -0000 Received: (qmail 25765 invoked by uid 507); 10 Apr 1999 05:37:57 -0000 From: Faried Nawaz To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: seti@home clients Reply-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org References: <199904092136.RAA07894@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> Date: 09 Apr 1999 22:37:57 -0700 In-Reply-To: keith@lightningweb.com's message of "9 Apr 1999 15:29:36 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/XEmacs 20.4 - "Emerald" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org keith@lightningweb.com (Keith Woodman) writes: Sign me up. I had no idea they were going to be having software to allow FreeBSD to do this. Great. Where can I get more info on this? Have you even tried the web page in the message you followed up to, twice? In case you missed it, here it is again: http://seti.ssl.berkeley.edu/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 10 3:58:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2730714DAD for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 03:58:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA06696 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 03:56:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904101056.DAA06696@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: I Bet this is a windoze systems 8) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 03:56:30 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Report says that FAA's New Radar System is up to 3 times slower than the 30year old technology is replacing --- I am telling you is got to be running something like NT 8) http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/travel/DailyNews/radar_faa990407.html Cheers, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 10 4:27:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17DDA14EB9 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 04:27:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from struct. (allenc.verinet.com [199.45.180.181]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.8/8.7.1) with ESMTP id FAA17768; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 05:24:54 -0600 Received: (from allenc@localhost) by struct. (8.9.2/8.9.2) id FAA00385; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 05:24:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from allenc) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 05:24:47 -0600 From: Allen Campbell To: Amancio Hasty Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I Bet this is a windoze systems 8) Message-ID: <19990410052447.A344@struct.> References: <199904101056.DAA06696@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199904101056.DAA06696@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:56:30AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:56:30AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Report says that FAA's New Radar System is up to 3 times slower than > the 30year old technology is replacing --- I am telling you is got to > be running something like NT 8) > > http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/travel/DailyNews/radar_faa990407.html > > Cheers, > Amancio The original air traffic control system is a test, promulgated by the space aliens who designed it. Our inability to match that system is a measure of our unworthiness. Upon achieving this goal, our mentors will return and welcome us into the Great One. No doubt, this will require several hundred billion dollars more 'development'. Cha'Ching! -- Allen Campbell | Lurking at the bottom of the allenc@verinet.com | gravity well, getting old. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 10 11:50:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0A314C89 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 11:50:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10W2nr-000LRI-0C; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 18:48:28 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id TAA01814; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 19:47:56 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id OAA00353; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 14:47:02 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 14:47:02 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Amancio Hasty Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I Bet this is a windoze systems 8) Message-ID: <19990410144702.B271@marder-1.localhost> References: <199904101056.DAA06696@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199904101056.DAA06696@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:56:30AM -0700 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:56:30AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Report says that FAA's New Radar System is up to 3 times slower > than the 30year old technology is replacing --- I am telling > you is got to be running something like NT 8) > If it is NT then travelling by bus appears suddenly attractive. > http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/travel/DailyNews/radar_faa990407.html > > Cheers, > Amancio > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 10 14: 8:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.physics.montana.edu (peloton.physics.montana.edu [153.90.192.177]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57EB2153D2; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 14:08:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.physics.montana.edu (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA09957; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:05:28 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:05:28 -0600 (MDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Jim Mock Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Advocacy Project web site In-Reply-To: <19990410112459.A8358@corp.au.triax.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Sat, 10 Apr 1999, Jim Mock wrote: > If you've got anything you'd like to contribute, please get in touch > with either Rob or myself and we'll go from there. I've got a few comments - in the image gallery, at least so far on the "new daemon" page you are requiring the browser to scale the images for the "thumbnails." This is bad - the user still has to load the entire 90kB image instead of a smaller thumbnail. Please make smaller versions of the images to use as the thumbnails - both xv and gimp will do this easily. For example the daemon-doc (which by the way you have daemon misspelled as "deamon" for all of the graphics names) image, scaled down to 200x170 as you've done in the HTML changes size as follows: hot-monkey: {2} ll deamon-doc* -rw-rw-r-- 1 brett wheel 11576 Apr 10 14:56 deamon-doc-small.jpg -rw-r--r-- 1 brett wheel 93090 Apr 10 14:54 deamon-doc.jpg That's 9x (roughly) less data to transfer for the end user. For all 5 images that's a BIG time savings over a modem. You appear to have done this on EVERY page of images. This really needs to be changed or you're defeating the entire purpose of the thumbnail. I'm also wondering what the "Super Advocates" link is for... In the main text in paragraph 2 you have a mistake in the HTML for the projects list. The link should point to: http://www.freebsd.org/projects/#advocacy not http://www.freebsd.org/projects/#advocacy/. In the April 1999 "In the press" section there is a link to CNN as: http://www.cnn.com/ I'd remove this link and just have the pointer to the article at CNN as you do. I figured the "CNN" link would take me to the actual article. That's about it for now. One thing I would also suggest is going through each and every link and making sure it points where you expect it to. :-) Other than the above things though it looks great. Nice job. Brett *********************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.physics.montana.edu * brett@daemonnews.org * * http://www.daemonnews.org/ * *********************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 10 15:33:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DFEF215111 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:33:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 718 invoked by alias); 10 Apr 1999 22:31:39 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 697 invoked by uid 0); 10 Apr 1999 22:31:39 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 10 Apr 1999 22:31:39 -0000 Message-ID: <370FD115.776182C9@uswest.net> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:30:45 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: Amancio Hasty , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I Bet this is a windoze systems 8) References: <199904101056.DAA06696@rah.star-gate.com> <19990410144702.B271@marder-1.localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:56:30AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> Report says that FAA's New Radar System is up to 3 times slower >> than the 30year old technology is replacing --- I am telling >> you is got to be running something like NT 8) > > If it is NT then travelling by bus appears suddenly attractive. Gives a whole new meaning to system crash. -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 10 16:19:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from einstein.fisica.ist.utl.pt (unknown [193.136.100.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49902150C0 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 16:19:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gabriel@maquina.com) Received: from localhost (gabriel@localhost) by einstein.fisica.ist.utl.pt (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA09313 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 00:17:49 +0100 Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 00:17:49 +0100 (WET) From: Jose Gabriel J Marcelino X-Sender: gabriel@einstein.fisica.ist.utl.pt To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Civ for Linux under FreeBSD? (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I just got this mail from Scott Draeker. This is very good news and proves just how flexible is FreeBSD. :) (thanks to all the emulator guys!) I would love a native version, maybe they'll do it later. Regards, Gabriel ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 15:57:32 -0700 From: Scott Draeker To: Jose Gabriel Marcelino Subject: Re: Civ for Linux under FreeBSD? >I look forward to see Civ: CTP for Linux coming out, I'm waiting for >credit card International pre-order to make my order. > >The main reason for my mail is that I'd like to know if your game will >be able to run under FreeBSD's Linux emulation. I have access to a couple >of machines, running FreeBSD or Linux but my main desktop is FreeBSD. It >would be great to know if it did work or if I would have to install it >on another computer. > >I'd be happy to help check it too if you'd like. My desktop runs >FreeBSD-CURRENT 4.0, and my neighbor's runs FreeBSD-3.1. >I can provide any information you require for your beta testers, just >let me know what you need. Jose: We have several beta tester who run Civ:CTP on FreeBSD under emulation. Obviously, this configuration is not supported. That said, it seems to work fine. Regards, Scott Draeker President Loki Entertainment Software To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 10 16:58:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay5.ftech.net (onyx.ftech.net [195.200.12.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A857915129 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 16:58:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from goddard@acm.org) Received: from ruby.ftech.net ([195.200.12.8] helo=dmg) by relay5.ftech.net with smtp (Exim 2.05ftechp2 #2) id 10W7bS-0004c8-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 00:55:59 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990411005541.00977950@mailgate.ftech.net> X-Sender: dmg@mailgate.ftech.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 00:55:41 +0100 To: chat@freebsd.org From: David Goddard Subject: A wee bit of advice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, I'm after some advice :-) I've done little real coding since leaving university a few years back (having, sadly, taken a more suit-like career path) but would like to get back into it. I guess you could call me a born-again newbie (not that I was ever a *guru* exactly)... Specifically, I'd like to code in an area that interests me - such as FreeBSD (system or applications - I'm flexible), where I've been a happy user for a number of years but not exactly contributed much. I've read the relevant section of the handbook, with the todo lists &c., but I'm still at a bit of a loss for where to start - having trouble seeing the wood from the trees I think... Any tips (such as ideas for a project, anecdotes or pointers to some good texts on systems programming)? Thanks, Dave -- David Goddard ~ goddard@acm.org ~ http://freeweb.ftech.net/dmg Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 10 19:15:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E79E14D08 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 19:15:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id EAA07497 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 04:12:45 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 9B88C87B6; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 00:28:12 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 00:28:12 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I Bet this is a windoze systems 8) Message-ID: <19990411002812.A30252@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199904101056.DAA06696@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199904101056.DAA06696@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 03:56:30AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5173 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Amancio Hasty: > Report says that FAA's New Radar System is up to 3 times slower than the > 30year I don't know US aeronautical systems (I work for the european equiv. of the FAA - Eurocontrol) but we're now doing experiments in ATN systems using FreeBSD boxes (with ARINC cards). The guy who did the development was to install Linux but I got him hooked on FreeBSD before :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@eurocontrol.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #70: Sat Feb 27 09:43:08 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 10 20:28: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89F65152C8 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:28:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-002.thuntek.net [207.66.52.2]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id VAA27634; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 21:25:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <371015EC.BBEDB2A1@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 21:24:28 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Goddard Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: A wee bit of advice References: <3.0.3.32.19990411005541.00977950@mailgate.ftech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd recommend that you look at the links under #projects at the FreeBSD.org site, and also at my advocacy task page, http://www.thuntek.net/~dwilde1/advotasks.html. We have a simple Perl project going on that'll be very important to FreeBSD.org's future because it involves a mechanism to help people like you solve the problem you're having now: where do I annonce my willingness, and where do I sign up? If you're after deeper projects, there are Ports to update and maintain, to-do lists for the Kernel, and serious work to be done on the sysinstall project. If you're good, but not quite ready for the kernel, Bob Bruce of WC-CDROM (rab@cdrom.com) is looking for programmers willing to commit to building install scripts for everything from trick desktops to firewalls. He'd like to enhance the ease-of-use of the CD package so that we can get FreeBSD into more places, a move that will benefit us all. -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 10 20:32: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9606F15102 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 20:32:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.61]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA5423; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 23:27:04 -0400 Message-ID: <370FEC97.13D31CD0@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 19:28:08 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es,en-US,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Goddard Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: A wee bit of advice References: <3.0.3.32.19990411005541.00977950@mailgate.ftech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Goddard escribió: > > Specifically, I'd like to code in an area that interests me - such as FreeBSD > (system or applications - I'm flexible), where I've been a happy user for a > number of years but not exactly contributed much. I've read the relevant > section of the handbook, with the todo lists &c., but I'm still at a bit of > a loss for where to start - having trouble seeing the wood from the trees I > think... > The only thing I can say is.have fun. If it's not fun, it's probably not worth it anyway. Start by taking your preferred programming language and doing trivial things. Progressively you will find there are some things you have ALWAYS wanted to do and...BANG you're lost :-). > > Any tips (such as ideas for a project, anecdotes or pointers to some good > texts on systems programming)? > Everyone nowadays uses C or a C++ derived language (Java, Python...); somehow it's not important what you want to use as long as you solve your own requirements. I have tried to start learning Modula-3 (I was a good Pascal programmer once), but I always end up porting something in C that I need, or "suggesting" the features I want to see... That said, I unpacked my old 3D Studio to hopefully do some nice FreeBSD animated logos. Hope I didn't confuse you more, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 10 21: 7: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49F5150E0 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 21:06:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-002.thuntek.net [207.66.52.2]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id WAA02518; Sat, 10 Apr 1999 22:04:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37101F08.A49D535C@thuntek.net> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 1999 22:03:20 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ollivier Robert Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I Bet this is a windoze systems 8) References: <199904101056.DAA06696@rah.star-gate.com> <19990411002812.A30252@keltia.freenix.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org They're supposed to be testing its Y2K readiness _tonight_ in the new Denver Airport. Glad I got home _last_light_... :-) -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 11 1:22: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B773F15426 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 01:21:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.109]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3D9A; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:19:41 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA54182; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:19:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19990411005541.00977950@mailgate.ftech.net> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 10:19:30 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: David Goddard Subject: RE: A wee bit of advice Cc: chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 10-Apr-99 David Goddard wrote: > Specifically, I'd like to code in an area that interests me - such as > FreeBSD (system or applications - I'm flexible), where I've been a happy > user for a number of years but not exactly contributed much. I've read > the relevant section of the handbook, with the todo lists &c., but I'm > still at a bit of a loss for where to start - having trouble seeing the > wood from the trees I think... > > Any tips (such as ideas for a project, anecdotes or pointers to some good > texts on systems programming)? Aye, in the /usr/ports directory are a lot of ports with a lot of subdirectories called patches. Those can be tried to be merged back into the projects where the source came from. Just be sure ye know what all them stuff in the Makefiles and patches try to do ;) Other thing is the Programmer's Documentation Project on which I am working together with Robert Garrett and Adrian Chadd. This Project tries to document FreeBSD's functions and a lot more. The current page is a little stale due to my moving to DocBook. Please see .sig for my homepage and PDP. --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The idea does not replace the work... Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 11 15:47:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A348915673 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:42:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul9.u.washington.edu (root@saul9.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.7]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id MAA38038 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:59:01 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul9.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id MAA31623 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 12:58:18 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: /etc/defaults/really_defaults/really_really_defaults Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org What's the functional difference between the former rc.conf and defaults/rc.conf? Why not /etc/defaults/really_defaults/really_really_defaults/rc.conf? (Rhetorical question) If we realllllly shouldn't change settings in defaults/rc.conf then just roll those variable assignments into /etc/rc which we are also warned not to play with. (This is where a developer should tell me I don't see the grand scheme.) My vote from userland is scrap /etc/defaults. Change mergemaster a bit. Use rc and rc.conf and be done with it. Let make world handle rc but leave rc.conf. Boy, if I ever become a committer I will rename all of those files to the most perfectly correct and canonical *.ini! Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 11 16:17:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat192.236.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.192.236]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A103315471 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 15:56:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id RAA35225 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:17:30 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:17:30 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: login in to freefall... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry to repeat this question, since I did see the answer a little while ago and thought I had saved it :( Can someone please send me instructions on what information I have to send to whom in order to get my password/connectivity reset? :( Thanks... Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 11 16:47:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A9B415524 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:24:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA26752; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:42:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904110942.CAA26752@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: Charles Henrich Subject: Charles Henrich a Star? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 02:42:06 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Went to see today the movie Matrix cool movie !! Tried to see if freebsd was mentioned on the list of credits --- yes I know I am a dreamer -- instead I saw Charles Henrich mentioned ! -- Congrats! For those of you who don't already know , some of the movie shots in the Matrix were rendered with FreeBSD boxes 8) Enjoy, Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 11 16:56:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id EB75114CD3 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:56:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 45094 invoked by uid 1003); 11 Apr 1999 18:46:44 -0000 Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:46:44 +0000 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Ben Smithurst Cc: Mark Ovens , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Message-ID: <19990411184644.A44768@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com> <19990403185037.A12711@futuresouth.com> <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com> <19990404091610.H299@marder-1.localhost> <19990404161535.A32644@scientia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990404161535.A32644@scientia.demon.co.uk>; from Ben Smithurst on Sun, Apr 04, 1999 at 04:15:35PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi > The nice thing about par (in the ports) is that it > automatically handles quoted text, even multileveled > quoted text. I really couldn't live without this, with the > amount of broken quoting that needs to be put back to <80 > characters. Last time I looked, plain vanilla fmt didn't > do that. Did I miss an option? To get this effect, I typed "{gq}" after setting tw=60 (in vim5) Hope this helps Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 11 17: 6:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9108414C2D for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:06:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 46674 invoked by uid 1003); 11 Apr 1999 18:56:48 -0000 Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:56:48 +0000 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Good pic of chuck... Message-ID: <19990411185648.B44768@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: <370A8DBB.5F08B428@plutotech.com> <199904070037.RAA29312@usr09.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199904070037.RAA29312@usr09.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Wed, Apr 07, 1999 at 12:37:40AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed 1999-04-07 (00:37), Terry Lambert wrote: > Heh. > > "FreeBSD: Would you like fries with that?" No way. I was on the bus back home from varsity and started working on a couple of things I'd like to work on, which started to include tons of port/packaging frontend work. (which is incidental) In any case, I came up with "FRIES" as a name, and was going to use that as a tagline. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 11 17:17:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C78114C1D for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:17:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA33772; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:15:35 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:15:35 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: /etc/defaults/really_defaults/really_really_defaults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Jason C. Wells wrote: > What's the functional difference between the former rc.conf and > defaults/rc.conf? Now you get to switch between consoles to read man pages or the defaults rather than just edit one file with the syntax, defaults, and comments right there. > My vote from userland is scrap /etc/defaults. Mine too. But don't forget with a little bit of editing you can always do away with the "new and improved version" on your own systems. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 11 17:39:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EEE814D6A for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:39:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul6.u.washington.edu (root@saul6.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.1]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id RAA27780; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:37:23 -0700 Received: from S8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul6.u.washington.edu (8.9.3+UW99.02/8.9.3+UW99.01) with ESMTP id RAA25586; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 17:36:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jcw@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: jack Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: /etc/defaults/really_defaults/really_really_defaults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, jack wrote: >Mine too. But don't forget with a little bit of editing you can >always do away with the "new and improved version" on your own >systems. :) Yes. Thank goodness we always have that option. Catchya Later, | Give me UNIX or give me a typewriter. Jason Wells | http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 11 22:53:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EDB315014 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 1999 22:53:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990412055250.LJPW5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:52:50 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: "Jason C. Wells" Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:51:16 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: /etc/defaults/really_defaults/really_really_defaults Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990412055250.LJPW5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 11 Apr 99, at 12:58, Jason C. Wells wrote: > My vote from userland is scrap /etc/defaults. Change mergemaster a bit. > Use rc and rc.conf and be done with it. Let make world handle rc but leave > rc.conf. Neah. The new rc.conf is way easier. With 3.1, you specify the non- default values. If you have a problem with the system, you have a much smaller file to deal with. If you have to show someone in a mailing list what your configuration is, it's only a few lines instead of the whole file. But I take it that isn't your beef. it's with the existance of the /etc/defaults/rc.conf file. I see. But at least it's easier having it here so we know what values we can override in rc.conf. cheers. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 1:43:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orbit.flnet.com (orbit.flnet.com [205.240.232.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7876A1521E for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:43:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henrich@orbit.flnet.com) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by orbit.flnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id EAA26746; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 04:40:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:40:46 -0700 From: Charles Henrich To: Amancio Hasty Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Message-ID: <19990412014046.C17685@orbit.flnet.com> References: <199904110942.CAA26752@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199904110942.CAA26752@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sun, Apr 11, 1999 at 02:42:06AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA_A X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1024/F7 FD C7 3A F5 6A 23 BF 76 C4 B8 C9 6E 41 A4 4F Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On the subject of Charles Henrich a Star?, Amancio Hasty stated: > Went to see today the movie Matrix cool movie !! Glad you liked it! What were your favorite bits? Im no star, just a systems guy who got tired of IRIX :) > Tried to see if freebsd was mentioned on the list of credits --- yes I know > I am a dreamer -- instead I saw Charles Henrich mentioned ! -- Congrats! FreeBSD didnt come into the picture into well after the credits were already finalized, otherwise I would've tried :) -Crh Charles Henrich Manex Visual Effects henrich@flnet.com http://orbit.flnet.com/~henrich To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 1:52:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BC7414F23 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:52:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA33235; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:49:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904120849.BAA33235@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Charles Henrich Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:40:46 PDT." <19990412014046.C17685@orbit.flnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:49:45 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, there were quite a few cool shots so let me not spoil it for those who haven't seen it . Okay I will talk about an early scene, I did like the shot where the heroine was going to kick a cop , where she jump in the air the camera froze her and it looked like she was flying like a bird then camera just panned around her . Was that shot render with FreeBSD? Kudos Again! Amancio > On the subject of Charles Henrich a Star?, Amancio Hasty stated: > > > Went to see today the movie Matrix cool movie !! > > Glad you liked it! What were your favorite bits? Im no star, just a systems > guy who got tired of IRIX :) > > > Tried to see if freebsd was mentioned on the list of credits --- yes I know > > I am a dreamer -- instead I saw Charles Henrich mentioned ! -- Congrats! > > FreeBSD didnt come into the picture into well after the credits were already > finalized, otherwise I would've tried :) > > -Crh > > Charles Henrich Manex Visual Effects henrich@flnet.com > > http://orbit.flnet.com/~henrich To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 1:56:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B51DC14F23 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:56:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990412085515.MNLW5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:55:15 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Charles Henrich Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:53:46 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990412014046.C17685@orbit.flnet.com> References: <199904110942.CAA26752@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sun, Apr 11, 1999 at 02:42:06AM -0700 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990412085515.MNLW5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12 Apr 99, at 1:40, Charles Henrich wrote: > On the subject of Charles Henrich a Star?, Amancio Hasty stated: > > > Went to see today the movie Matrix cool movie !! > > Glad you liked it! What were your favorite bits? Im no star, just a > systems guy who got tired of IRIX :) The wake up scene. When the machine picked up up and snapped off the cables! WOW! > > Tried to see if freebsd was mentioned on the list of credits --- yes I > > know I am a dreamer -- instead I saw Charles Henrich mentioned ! -- > > Congrats! > > FreeBSD didnt come into the picture into well after the credits were > already finalized, otherwise I would've tried :) I couldn't wait for the credits. But I will when I see it next time. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 1:56:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACFCD14F23 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 01:56:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA14704; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:23:49 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199904120849.BAA33235@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:26:34 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Charles Henrich Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12-Apr-99 Amancio Hasty wrote: > Okay I will talk about an early scene, I did like the shot where the heroine > was going to kick a cop , where she jump in the air the camera froze her > and > it looked like she was flying like a bird then camera just panned around her > . > Was that shot render with FreeBSD? You can do that without computers (well.. they assist).. What they do is have a line of cameras which are synced together, and instead of playing the film from one camera you play one frame from the first camera and one from the second etc.. So the object appears frozen in time, but the camera moves.. Of course they use computers to interpolate the frames inbetween, but hey :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 3:18: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from firewall1.lehman.com (firewall.Lehman.COM [192.147.65.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CD23150B6; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 03:17:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nclayton@lehman.com) Received: from relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com by firewall1.lehman.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) id GAA18679; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 06:15:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from lonmailhost.lehman.com by relay.messaging-svcs2.lehman.com (8.9.3/8.8.5) id GAA01004; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 06:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by lonmailhost.lehman.com (SMI-8.6/Lehman Bros. V1.5) id LAA11804; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:15:07 +0100 Message-ID: <19990412111502.P14492@lehman.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 11:15:02 +0100 From: nclayton@lehman.com To: jim@corp.au.triax.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Advocacy Project web site References: <19990410112459.A8358@corp.au.triax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.1i In-Reply-To: <19990410112459.A8358@corp.au.triax.com>; from Jim Mock on Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 11:25:00AM +1000 Organization: Lehman Brothers Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 10, 1999 at 11:25:00AM +1000, Jim Mock wrote: > We've spent the last week or so putting together the framework for the > new advocacy pages (which will be put into the FreeBSD www tree in > about two weeks or so), and we'd like some input and info from all of > you. We've got a prototype of the site up temporarily at > http://www.ghis.net/~jim/FreeBSD/ . Personal bug bear -- the main header graphic has a white background. So does the web page. If Netscape is in a low colour situation, it will *dither* the white on the header graphic, leaving ugly stipples. Please use giftrans (or possibly called transgif) in the ports tree to set the background of the GIF to transparent, as well as white. > What we're looking for is the following: > > o Updated user group information. If you've started or belong > to a user group, please check the site to a) make sure your > group is listed, b) make sure the info there is accurate, > and c) if it isn't, please send us updates. The UK information looks accurate. Is this page intended to replace the FreeBSD Usergroups information on the main web site, or to duplicate it? I'm a little uneasy at having duplicate sources for the same information. Experience tells me they always get out of sync. Couldn't this section just link back to the user groups stuff on the main web site? N -- --+==[ Systems Administrator, Year 2000 Test Lab, Lehman Brothers, Inc. ]==+-- --+==[ 1 Broadgate, London, EC2M 7HA 0171-601-0011 x5514 ]==+-- --+==[ Year 2000 Testing: It's about time. . . ]==+-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 3:35:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE89D150B6; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 03:35:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-019.thuntek.net [207.66.52.19]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id EAA23116; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 04:33:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3711CBA5.8437FFD2@thuntek.net> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 04:32:05 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: nclayton@lehman.com Cc: jim@corp.au.triax.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Advocacy Project web site References: <19990410112459.A8358@corp.au.triax.com> <19990412111502.P14492@lehman.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org We'll be taking over the User's Groups, Press links and Gallery sections, Nik. Wolfram can't wait to get out from under it! When we're ready, he and we will e-chat until we get it all straightened out, then we'll deploy it all at once. -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 4:48:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep04-svc.tin.it (mta04-acc.tin.it [212.216.176.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE5C514FB8 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 04:48:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from molter@tin.it) Received: from nympha.ecomotor.it ([212.216.29.120]) by fep04-svc.tin.it (InterMail v4.0 201-221-105) with SMTP id <19990412114557.CWFU1469.fep04-svc@nympha.ecomotor.it> for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:45:57 +0200 Received: (qmail 592 invoked by uid 1000); 12 Apr 1999 11:45:47 -0000 From: "Marco Molteni" Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:45:47 +0200 (CEST) X-Sender: molter@localhost To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: /etc/defaults/really_defaults/really_really_defaults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 11 Apr 1999, Jason C. Wells wrote: [..] > My vote from userland is scrap /etc/defaults. Change mergemaster a bit. > Use rc and rc.conf and be done with it. Let make world handle rc but leave > rc.conf. agreed. I don't like this new configuration scheme. It is clumsier. Marco To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 10: 0:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orbit.flnet.com (orbit.flnet.com [205.240.232.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFF1B15236 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:00:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henrich@orbit.flnet.com) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by orbit.flnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id MAA05764; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:58:22 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 09:57:33 -0700 From: Charles Henrich To: "Daniel O'Connor" Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Message-ID: <19990412095733.B5248@orbit.flnet.com> References: <199904120849.BAA33235@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Daniel O'Connor on Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 06:26:34PM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA_A X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1024/F7 FD C7 3A F5 6A 23 BF 76 C4 B8 C9 6E 41 A4 4F Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On the subject of Re: Charles Henrich a Star?, Daniel O'Connor stated: Note, if you havent seen the film, Im talking about scenes below :) > You can do that without computers (well.. they assist).. > > What they do is have a line of cameras which are synced together, and > instead of playing the film from one camera you play one frame from the > first camera and one from the second etc.. So the object appears frozen in > time, but the camera moves.. Of course they use computers to interpolate the > frames inbetween, but hey :) The camera rig is run byt computers :) Our rig doesnt have the cameras sync'd together. We can vary when each camea fires at will. So for example in the Trinity Kick if you look you can see her arms and fingers moving, all of our "Flo-Mo" sequences were actually running forward in time (no stills), just at immensly fast frame rates, I think some of them were virtually 1000fps. We then used lots of bits of software to do interpolation, and even some paint work to clean it up. The most amazing of them all as far as technology goes, is in the sequence where Laurence Fishburn gets shot in the leg was done from something silly like 6 original frames of film. We have an amazing crew of VFX folks here! -Crh Charles Henrich Manex Visual Effects henrich@flnet.com http://orbit.flnet.com/~henrich To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 10: 3: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orbit.flnet.com (orbit.flnet.com [205.240.232.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6E0E15236 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:03:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henrich@orbit.flnet.com) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by orbit.flnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id NAA05916; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:00:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:00:46 -0700 From: Charles Henrich To: Amancio Hasty Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Message-ID: <19990412100046.E5248@orbit.flnet.com> References: <19990412014046.C17685@orbit.flnet.com> <199904120849.BAA33235@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199904120849.BAA33235@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 01:49:45AM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA_A X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1024/F7 FD C7 3A F5 6A 23 BF 76 C4 B8 C9 6E 41 A4 4F Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On the subject of Re: Charles Henrich a Star?, Amancio Hasty stated: > Actually, there were quite a few cool shots so let me not spoil it for those > who haven't seen it . > > Okay I will talk about an early scene, I did like the shot where the heroine > was going to kick a cop , where she jump in the air the camera froze her > and it looked like she was flying like a bird then camera just panned around > her . Was that shot render with FreeBSD? No, that was composited with Kodak's Cineon product. The FreeBSD stuff was in the heavy CG areas, i.e. the fetus fields, and the sentinals etc.. _Crh Charles Henrich Manex Visual Effects henrich@flnet.com http://orbit.flnet.com/~henrich To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 10: 5:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orbit.flnet.com (orbit.flnet.com [205.240.232.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03DED14EF4 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:05:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henrich@orbit.flnet.com) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by orbit.flnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id NAA06087; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 13:03:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:03:31 -0700 From: Charles Henrich To: Dan Langille Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Message-ID: <19990412100331.F5248@orbit.flnet.com> References: <199904110942.CAA26752@rah.star-gate.com>; <19990412014046.C17685@orbit.flnet.com> <19990412085515.MNLW5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990412085515.MNLW5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; from Dan Langille on Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 08:53:46PM +1200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA_A X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1024/F7 FD C7 3A F5 6A 23 BF 76 C4 B8 C9 6E 41 A4 4F Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The wake up scene. When the machine picked up up and snapped off the > cables! WOW! Yea the DocBot is pretty damn cool :) One of the things that is interesting is that most of the CG models are amazingly beautiful, but a lot of the detail was lost in the lighting stage when everything was darkened down to match the mood of the film. Our CG crew is pretty amazing I have to say! > I couldn't wait for the credits. But I will when I see it next time. :) There's no mention of FreeBSD I'm afraid. Just the names of all those who worked hard on the film! -Crh Charles Henrich Manex Visual Effects henrich@flnet.com http://orbit.flnet.com/~henrich To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 10:15:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A862514D31 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #4) id 10WiNK-0000yw-00; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:11:50 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:11:50 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: "Jason C. Wells" Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: /etc/defaults/really_defaults/really_really_defaults Message-ID: <19990412161150.B3679@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jason C. Wells wrote: > What's the functional difference between the former rc.conf and > defaults/rc.conf? Why not > /etc/defaults/really_defaults/really_really_defaults/rc.conf? (Rhetorical > question) > > If we realllllly shouldn't change settings in defaults/rc.conf then just > roll those variable assignments into /etc/rc which we are also warned not > to play with. (This is where a developer should tell me I don't see the > grand scheme.) It makes it easier to see what the defaults are, imho. If I wanted to find all the other defaults, I'd have to grep all the rc* files, find what context it was used in, etc. Also, if a variable is used more than once, especially in more than one file, changes made by FreeBSD developers to the default setting need only be made once. -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 10:16:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A11214C23 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:16:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #4) id 10WiEI-0000y9-00; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:02:30 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:02:30 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: outlook mail was:(RE: Logo merchandise) Message-ID: <19990412160230.A3679@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <370473EC.6DFF6E3E@uswest.net> <199904032141.OAA12082@usr04.primenet.com> <19990403185037.A12711@futuresouth.com> <19990404105501.O2142@lemis.com> <19990404091610.H299@marder-1.localhost> <19990404161535.A32644@scientia.demon.co.uk> <19990411184644.A44768@rucus.ru.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990411184644.A44768@rucus.ru.ac.za> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > To get this effect, I typed "{gq}" after setting tw=60 > > (in vim5) I don't use vim most of the time, although it is installed here. Most of the time I just use FreeBSD's standard vi (nvi, whatever it's called). Vim has just a few really minor things which annoy me. -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 10:48:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D59314CA1 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:48:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from outpost.co.nz (b001-m006-p018.wgtn.clear.net.nz [203.167.241.82]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id FAA12310; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:45:31 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199904121745.FAA12310@fep1-orange.clear.net.nz> Received: (qmail 1586 invoked from network); 12 Apr 1999 12:58:08 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.acme.gen.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by evil-smelling-bugger.acme.gen.nz with SMTP; 12 Apr 1999 12:58:08 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:57:47 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz In-reply-to: <19990412014046.C17685@orbit.flnet.com> References: <199904110942.CAA26752@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Sun, Apr 11, 1999 at 02:42:06AM -0700 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Charles Henrich wrote: > On the subject of Charles Henrich a Star?, Amancio Hasty stated: > > > Went to see today the movie Matrix cool movie !! > > Glad you liked it! What were your favorite bits? Im no star, just > a systems guy who got tired of IRIX :) Saw it tonight, it's a great movie overall, and the FX are very nicely done. Obviously Manex are a clever bunch of people. So how much of the rendered bits did you guys do? The main reason I want to know is to be able to explain to people "you know XXX in the film? Done on FreeBSD", and then act just a little smug. I liked the slomo bullets and bullet trails, but I'm picking the Manex bits were probably the "spaceship" underground scenes with the Sentinels? Very nicely done! It's a very good film BTW, for people who haven't seen it. Does a few new things in a stylistic sense for an action movie, and does them well. I really liked the slomo gunfights, I just kept watching all the flying particles (eg storming the building lobby) and the people in close proximity and thinking "how they do that?". > > Tried to see if freebsd was mentioned on the list of credits --- > > yes I know I am a dreamer -- instead I saw Charles Henrich > > mentioned ! -- Congrats! > > FreeBSD didnt come into the picture into well after the credits were > already finalized, otherwise I would've tried :) Yeah, congrats Charles, following Amancio's tipoff I hung round to make sure I saw it. The scroll the bastards damn fast though, almost missed it. -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 12:18:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC7CA155F6 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:18:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA36426; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:15:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904121915.MAA36426@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Charles Henrich Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 12 Apr 1999 10:00:46 PDT." <19990412100046.E5248@orbit.flnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:15:23 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The sentinels were really cool they were like a mix between spiders and a jelly fish. They look darn real to me in fact I think the creatures look much better than the under water scenes in Alien Resurrection were the "Aliens" were chasing the humans. Noticed that the voice of the Agent sounded like Carl Sagan and the scene were he was saying : ".... Humans are a disease and We are The Cure" -- that short scene gave me the shills Cheers Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 12:19:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (unknown [208.149.16.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 752E515053; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:19:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA02852; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:16:53 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:16:52 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: DoS from local users (fwd) X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14098.17765.31841.546055@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org : "What was their user name again?" : *click xterm click* : ps aux | grep ^user | wc -l : "Hmm, you're right, fifty processes called 'cpuwaster'." : rmuser user : "They've been eliminated, thank you for letting us know of problems you have!" : : It's called "being a sysadmin". If someone's abusing the machine, delete em. [ Redirected to chat ] There are several points which I would like to make in response to this posting. 1) cpuwaster may be solving a significant problem. One man's cpuwaster is another man's breadandbutter. 2) Adding useful new scheduling policy options to the system allows a good sysadmin to be a better sysadmin. That's a Good Thing. 3) One man's sysadmin is another man's asshole. (Made you think, didn't I?) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 12:42:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79AB215087 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 12:42:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.40]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA7329; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:37:05 -0400 Message-ID: <37124B6A.6669DF8D@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:37:15 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es,en-US,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Charles Henrich Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? References: <199904110942.CAA26752@rah.star-gate.com>; <19990412014046.C17685@orbit.flnet.com> <19990412085515.MNLW5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990412100331.F5248@orbit.flnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Charles Henrich escribió: > > > I couldn't wait for the credits. But I will when I see it next time. > > :) There's no mention of FreeBSD I'm afraid. Just the names of all those who > worked hard on the film! > Ughh..No mysterious guy named Chuck in the crew?? ...:) A real shame that movies arrive three months late to Colombia :(. Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 14:46:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B6F15542; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 14:46:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) id TAA09278; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:37:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:37:51 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Charles Henrich , advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Message-ID: <19990412193751.A8799@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <199904110942.CAA26752@rah.star-gate.com>; <19990412014046.C17685@orbit.flnet.com> <19990412085515.MNLW5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990412100331.F5248@orbit.flnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990412100331.F5248@orbit.flnet.com>; from Charles Henrich on Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:03:31AM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ For the -advocacy folks; FreeBSD was used to do {some,all} of the CGI SFX in the new file _The Matrix_. Our own Charles Henrich is in the credits, but FreeBSD isn't ] On Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 10:03:31AM -0700, Charles Henrich wrote: > > I couldn't wait for the credits. But I will when I see it next time. > > :) There's no mention of FreeBSD I'm afraid. Just the names of all > those who worked hard on the film! This just screams "Press Release" at me. Paging Don Wilde, paging Don Wilde, we have your first case here. Particularly if we can say something like "The Effects are x% more involved than those in Titanic (which used the popular Linux OS), but were achieved in y% of the time, due to FreeBSD's superior scalability. . ." N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 17: 0:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eterna.binary.net (eterna.binary.net [12.13.84.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05A714EA0 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:00:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nathan@rtfm.net) Received: from matrix.binary.net (nathan@matrix.binary.net [12.13.120.2]) by eterna.binary.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA97920; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:58:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from nathan@localhost) by matrix.binary.net (8.9.1a/8.9.1) id SAA22717; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 18:58:34 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:58:34 -0400 From: Nathan Dorfman To: Ben Smithurst Cc: "Jason C. Wells" , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: /etc/defaults/really_defaults/really_really_defaults Message-ID: <19990412195834.A19651@rtfm.net> References: <19990412161150.B3679@scientia.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <19990412161150.B3679@scientia.demon.co.uk>; from Ben Smithurst on Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 04:11:50PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 04:11:50PM +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: > Jason C. Wells wrote: > > > What's the functional difference between the former rc.conf and > > defaults/rc.conf? Why not > > /etc/defaults/really_defaults/really_really_defaults/rc.conf? (Rhetorical > > question) > > > > If we realllllly shouldn't change settings in defaults/rc.conf then just > > roll those variable assignments into /etc/rc which we are also warned not > > to play with. (This is where a developer should tell me I don't see the > > grand scheme.) > > It makes it easier to see what the defaults are, imho. If I wanted to find > all the other defaults, I'd have to grep all the rc* files, find what > context it was used in, etc. Also, if a variable is used more than once, > especially in more than one file, changes made by FreeBSD developers to > the default setting need only be made once. On the other hand, setting up a nwe system is a PITA now, because you can't just edit the file and rely on comments already there to change default values to whatever you need. Now, you need to also open a copy of the defaults file, to read from, and copy over lines you want to change to your own file, and change them there. What about defaults changing, and suddenly values you rely on in rc.conf no longer having any effect? > -- > Ben Smithurst > ben@scientia.demon.co.uk > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Nathan Dorfman The statements and opinions in my Unix Admin @ Frontline Communications public posts are mine, not FCC's. "The light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an approaching train." --/usr/games/fortune To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 17: 2:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orbit.flnet.com (orbit.flnet.com [205.240.232.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63DDB14EA0; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:02:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henrich@orbit.flnet.com) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by orbit.flnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id TAA28055; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 19:59:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 16:59:40 -0700 From: Charles Henrich To: Nik Clayton Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, Dan Langille , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Message-ID: <19990412165940.F25425@orbit.flnet.com> References: <199904110942.CAA26752@rah.star-gate.com>; <19990412014046.C17685@orbit.flnet.com> <19990412085515.MNLW5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990412100331.F5248@orbit.flnet.com> <19990412193751.A8799@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990412193751.A8799@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 07:37:51PM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA_A X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1024/F7 FD C7 3A F5 6A 23 BF 76 C4 B8 C9 6E 41 A4 4F Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On the subject of Re: Charles Henrich a Star?, Nik Clayton stated: > Particularly if we can say something like "The Effects are x% more involved > than those in Titanic (which used the popular Linux OS), but were achieved > in y% of the time, due to FreeBSD's superior scalability. . ." I doubt you can say that :) In honest reality you could've done it on Linux, as we were using the linux binaries. I chose FreeBSD for its improved reliability and my happiness. -Crh Charles Henrich Manex Visual Effects henrich@flnet.com http://orbit.flnet.com/~henrich To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 17: 4:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orbit.flnet.com (orbit.flnet.com [205.240.232.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCB49153FA for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:04:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henrich@orbit.flnet.com) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by orbit.flnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id UAA28243; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 20:02:21 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:02:20 -0700 From: Charles Henrich To: Amancio Hasty Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Message-ID: <19990412170220.I25425@orbit.flnet.com> References: <19990412100046.E5248@orbit.flnet.com> <199904121915.MAA36426@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199904121915.MAA36426@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 12:15:23PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA_A X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1024/F7 FD C7 3A F5 6A 23 BF 76 C4 B8 C9 6E 41 A4 4F Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On the subject of Re: Charles Henrich a Star?, Amancio Hasty stated: > The sentinels were really cool they were like a mix between spiders and a > jelly fish. They look darn real to me in fact I think the creatures look > much better than the under water scenes in Alien Resurrection were the > "Aliens" were chasing the humans. Cool, I'll pass the comments onto the animators here who animated them! > Noticed that the voice of the Agent sounded like Carl Sagan and the scene > were he was saying : ".... Humans are a disease and We are The Cure" -- that > short scene gave me the shills Yea, Hugo Weaving is clearly the man. I believe he's a classically trained Australian actor. Great voice for sure! -Crh Charles Henrich Manex Visual Effects henrich@flnet.com http://orbit.flnet.com/~henrich To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 17:57:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06EF614CFD for ; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 17:57:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA20901; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:24:46 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990412170220.I25425@orbit.flnet.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:27:53 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Charles Henrich Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13-Apr-99 Charles Henrich wrote: > > were he was saying : ".... Humans are a disease and We are The Cure" -- > > short scene gave me the shills > Yea, Hugo Weaving is clearly the man. I believe he's a classically trained > Australian actor. Great voice for sure! Indeed he is.. Its very weird seing Hugo Weaving playing a character in an American sci fi flick tho =) Actually I thought he sounded like Dan Acroyd in the Blue Brothers the way he spoke (ie pausing before the end of the sentance) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 12 23:22:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A87E14C1B; Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:22:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990413062214.WDWZ5752963.mta2-rme@wocker>; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:22:14 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Charles Henrich Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:20:25 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <19990412165940.F25425@orbit.flnet.com> References: <19990412193751.A8799@catkin.nothing-going-on.org>; from Nik Clayton on Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 07:37:51PM +0100 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990413062214.WDWZ5752963.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 12 Apr 99, at 16:59, Charles Henrich wrote: > On the subject of Re: Charles Henrich a Star?, Nik Clayton stated: > > > Particularly if we can say something like "The Effects are x% more > > involved than those in Titanic (which used the popular Linux OS), but > > were achieved in y% of the time, due to FreeBSD's superior scalability. > > . ." > > I doubt you can say that :) In honest reality you could've done it on > Linux, as we were using the linux binaries. I chose FreeBSD for its > improved reliability and my happiness. Talk to Jordan. He was bragging last night that he's good at milking the most out of stuff like that. He'll guide you along when writing this press release. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 0:38:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD851530A; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:38:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) id IAA07437; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:27:13 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:27:12 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Charles Henrich Cc: Nik Clayton , advocacy@freebsd.org, Dan Langille , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Message-ID: <19990413082712.A7233@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <199904110942.CAA26752@rah.star-gate.com>; <19990412014046.C17685@orbit.flnet.com> <19990412085515.MNLW5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> <19990412100331.F5248@orbit.flnet.com> <19990412193751.A8799@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <19990412165940.F25425@orbit.flnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990412165940.F25425@orbit.flnet.com>; from Charles Henrich on Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 04:59:40PM -0700 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 12, 1999 at 04:59:40PM -0700, Charles Henrich wrote: > On the subject of Re: Charles Henrich a Star?, Nik Clayton stated: > > Particularly if we can say something like "The Effects are x% more involved > > than those in Titanic (which used the popular Linux OS), but were achieved > > in y% of the time, due to FreeBSD's superior scalability. . ." > > I doubt you can say that :) In honest reality you could've done it on Linux, > as we were using the linux binaries. I chose FreeBSD for its improved > reliability and my happiness. "Movie FX company chooses FreeBSD over Linux for increased reliability" Sounds good to me. N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 0:51:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB1D14D48; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:51:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA58592; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:49:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Nik Clayton Cc: Charles Henrich , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 Apr 1999 08:27:12 BST." <19990413082712.A7233@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:49:49 -0700 Message-ID: <58590.923989789@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "Movie FX company chooses FreeBSD over Linux for increased reliability" Or, even less combatatively: "Movie FX company chooses FreeBSD for overall reliability" Then in the article you can have a paragraph saying how Linux was evaluated and FreeBSD chosen instead, even though the renderman binary was a Linux one. Even if it just states reasons of personal preference for this, it's fine. Just so long as it's not in the headline or makes claims that Linux is somehow less reliable in general (stating a preference is not the same as making bold claims), we're fine. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 0:59:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B96415665; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:59:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA40104; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:56:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904130756.AAA40104@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Nik Clayton , Charles Henrich , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, Dan Langille , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:49:49 PDT." <58590.923989789@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:56:15 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nah , lets just be up front, We are the "Cure" for an Internet infested with virus and linux. Don't mind me just playing around. Have Fun Guys, Amancio > > "Movie FX company chooses FreeBSD over Linux for increased reliability" > > Or, even less combatatively: > > "Movie FX company chooses FreeBSD for overall reliability" > > Then in the article you can have a paragraph saying how Linux was > evaluated and FreeBSD chosen instead, even though the renderman binary > was a Linux one. Even if it just states reasons of personal > preference for this, it's fine. Just so long as it's not in the > headline or makes claims that Linux is somehow less reliable in > general (stating a preference is not the same as making bold claims), > we're fine. > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 5: 1: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D544F15188 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:01:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-065.thuntek.net [207.66.52.65]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id FAA11557; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:58:35 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37133137.34CEBFDE@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 05:57:43 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Charles Henrich , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? References: <58590.923989789@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've contacted Charles about Matrix. More important than the _wording_ of the release is the _permission_ to showcase it. If we're going to do this, we need to do it right! -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 9:37: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E86514BDA for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:37:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA60327; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:35:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: funny@cdrom.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: You find the oddest things when you netsearch for your own name... Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 09:35:14 -0700 Message-ID: <60325.924021314@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org While searching for an old article of mine to reference, I started running across some of the strangest items which I had though long buried, one in particular from Olin Shivers at CMU, which I had thankfully forgotten until now, probably being worth a read if only to learn a little more about my strange and sordid past. :-) http://people.qualcomm.com/ppomes/Articles/cs-guns.html Olin, of course, deserves the lion's share of credit for this madness. I just played straight man. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 10:43:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA3614D0A for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 10:43:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-008.thuntek.net [207.66.52.8]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id LAA16647; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:40:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37138178.17D54A04@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:40:08 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: funny@cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You find the oddest things when you netsearch for your own name... References: <60325.924021314@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Don't dial 911, call .45ACP. That's what we use in New Mexico. We have to, our roaches are bigger here and our politicians are teflon-coated Democrats! -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 11:26:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A27DD157D9 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:25:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990413182500.ZTHH5752963.mta2-rme@wocker>; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 06:25:00 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 06:23:13 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: You find the oddest things when you netsearch for your own name... Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <60325.924021314@zippy.cdrom.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990413182500.ZTHH5752963.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Apr 99, at 9:35, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Olin, of course, deserves the lion's share of credit for this madness. I > just played straight man. :) I don't know which to be more concerned about. That you wrote it. Or that you told us about it. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 11:53:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay5.ftech.net (onyx.ftech.net [195.200.12.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D216414D69 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 11:53:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from goddard@acm.org) Received: from ruby.ftech.net ([195.200.12.8] helo=dmg) by relay5.ftech.net with smtp (Exim 2.05ftechp2 #2) id 10X8GB-0006CV-00; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:50:12 +0100 Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990413191056.009d03a0@mailgate.ftech.net> X-Sender: dmg@mailgate.ftech.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:10:56 +0100 To: asmodai@wxs.nl, dwilde1@thuntek.net, pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co From: David Goddard Subject: RE: A wee bit of advice Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.3.32.19990411005541.00977950@mailgate.ftech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks for the responses guys - plenty to get on with, I guess I'll have to put my money where my mouth is now :-) [As soon as I get over the trauma induced by yesterday's rather unpleasant encounter with the Windows API] Dave -- David Goddard ~ goddard@acm.org ~ http://freeweb.ftech.net/dmg Some mornings it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 14:17:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hades.riverstyx.net [216.94.42.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3707515117; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:17:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA01888; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:14:51 -0700 Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 14:14:51 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-Reply-To: <58590.923989789@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Why fight Linux anyway? I'd say NT is a bigger threat. After all, you're trying to get this thru to IT managers at big corporations and the like. They're not comparing the Unices, they're looking at it from a "NT or... what?" kinda viewpoint. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > "Movie FX company chooses FreeBSD over Linux for increased reliability" > > Or, even less combatatively: > > "Movie FX company chooses FreeBSD for overall reliability" > > Then in the article you can have a paragraph saying how Linux was > evaluated and FreeBSD chosen instead, even though the renderman binary > was a Linux one. Even if it just states reasons of personal > preference for this, it's fine. Just so long as it's not in the > headline or makes claims that Linux is somehow less reliable in > general (stating a preference is not the same as making bold claims), > we're fine. > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 15:27:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32B8614C91; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 15:27:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA09418; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:24:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990413162355.00c458c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:24:45 -0600 To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz, Charles Henrich From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990413062214.WDWZ5752963.mta2-rme@wocker> References: <19990412165940.F25425@orbit.flnet.com> <19990412193751.A8799@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:20 PM 4/13/99 +1200, Dan Langille wrote: >Talk to Jordan. He was bragging last night that he's good at milking the >most out of stuff like that. He'll guide you along when writing this >press release. With all due respect, PR is not one of Jordan's strong points. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 16:29: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F28D158D2; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:28:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA61309; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:26:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: junkmale@xtra.co.nz, Charles Henrich , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:24:45 MDT." <4.2.0.32.19990413162355.00c458c0@localhost> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:26:49 -0700 Message-ID: <61307.924046009@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > With all due respect, PR is not one of Jordan's strong points. With all due respect, *your kind* of PR is not one of my strong points and I hope to god it never is. That would be like deciding to become a divorce lawyer. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 16:54:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from orbit.flnet.com (orbit.flnet.com [205.240.232.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DF6215271; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:54:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from henrich@orbit.flnet.com) Received: (from henrich@localhost) by orbit.flnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) id TAA21581; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:51:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:51:23 -0700 From: Charles Henrich To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brett Glass , junkmale@xtra.co.nz, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: PR Wars Message-ID: <19990413165123.A20346@orbit.flnet.com> References: <4.2.0.32.19990413162355.00c458c0@localhost> <61307.924046009@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <61307.924046009@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Apr 13, 1999 at 04:26:49PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2-BETA_A X-PGP-Fingerprint: 1024/F7 FD C7 3A F5 6A 23 BF 76 C4 B8 C9 6E 41 A4 4F Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > With all due respect, PR is not one of Jordan's strong points. > > With all due respect, *your kind* of PR is not one of my strong points and I > hope to god it never is. That would be like deciding to become a divorce > lawyer. :-) Alright, no flame wars under my name, change the subject line if your gonna fight :) -Crh Charles Henrich Manex Visual Effects henrich@flnet.com http://orbit.flnet.com/~henrich To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 16:58:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 999B714CC7; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 16:58:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10231; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:56:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990413175507.04df8100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:56:14 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Cc: junkmale@xtra.co.nz, Charles Henrich , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <61307.924046009@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org My kind of PR is EFFECTIVE PR. Your PR, which has burdened FreeBSD for many years, has set the OS so far behind Linux in market share and visibility that it may never catch up. --Brett Glass At 04:26 PM 4/13/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> With all due respect, PR is not one of Jordan's strong points. > >With all due respect, *your kind* of PR is not one of my strong points >and I hope to god it never is. That would be like deciding to become >a divorce lawyer. :-) > >- Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 17: 8:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60FE614D2B for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:08:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10350; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:06:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990413180127.04df8330@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:06:16 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <61559.924048093@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:01 PM 4/13/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Brett, that's just total bullshit and you know it. If your PR has >been so damn effective, why are we so far behind Linux as you say? Because you, as nominal head of the FreeBSD project, have rejected all offers of PR work before I did any. It is now highly unikely that I will ever volunteer any such effort. >I don't see that you're getting amazingly different results than I am That's because I'm not doing any -- again, thanks to your wonderful encouragement. I'll leave you to kill FreeBSD yourself. >This discussion is over and I'm not even going to continue it in the >lists because it's a waste of time. Besides, didn't you already stomp >off in a snit? Don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out >this time either. Indeed, you obviously intend to show anyone who might do EFFECTIVE work the door. It might make you look bad if they were successful. --Brett Glass P.S. -- Normally, I wouldn't quote from private e-mail on a public list, but I think that it's important for those on the list to see just how Jordan berates even those who have volunteered to help if they threaten his "turf." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 17:11:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E3B814F9C for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:11:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA61629; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:09:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:06:16 MDT." <4.2.0.32.19990413180127.04df8330@localhost> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:09:45 -0700 Message-ID: <61627.924048585@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > P.S. -- Normally, I wouldn't quote from private e-mail on a public list, Brett, there's no excuse for that under any circumstances and this merely shows the group a lot more about YOU than it does about me. As far as I'm concerned, you can't possibly be gone fast enough. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 17:20:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B89B814CBE for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:20:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA44960; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:17:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904140017.RAA44960@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:09:45 PDT." <61627.924048585@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:17:15 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just try to ignore each other and lets get back to the topic that is to find an angle to get good PR for FreeBSD out of the Movie Matrix. Cheers, Amancio > > P.S. -- Normally, I wouldn't quote from private e-mail on a public list, > > Brett, there's no excuse for that under any circumstances and this > merely shows the group a lot more about YOU than it does about me. > As far as I'm concerned, you can't possibly be gone fast enough. > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 17:45:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from madcow.borg.com (madcow.borg.com [205.217.206.165]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC65514DFE for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:45:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@borg.com) Received: from mail.borg.com (mail.borg.com [205.217.206.192]) by madcow.borg.com (8.9.0/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA27094; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:42:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: from borg.com (ip204a.borg.com [208.3.180.204]) by mail.borg.com (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA20874; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:42:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3713E5D7.F0CA7E7B@borg.com> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:48:23 -0400 From: "Mark S. Reichman" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: You find the oddest things when you netsearch for your own name... References: <60325.924021314@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: I read part of your article and just saw that you had an account on violet.berkeley.edu. I wrote a simple socket while I was at school (SUNY) in New York that accessed the time port. We used violet.berkeley.edu as a test machine for the distant end. What a small network we all compute on. > > While searching for an old article of mine to reference, I started > running across some of the strangest items which I had though long > buried, one in particular from Olin Shivers at CMU, which I had > thankfully forgotten until now, probably being worth a read if only to > learn a little more about my strange and sordid past. :-) > > http://people.qualcomm.com/ppomes/Articles/cs-guns.html > > Olin, of course, deserves the lion's share of credit for this madness. > I just played straight man. :) > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- \|/ (@ @) +---------------oOO---(_)------------------------+ | Mark S. Reichman FreeBSD | | mark@borg.com Got source? | | | | The "Paperless Office" looked good on paper. | +----------------------------oOO-----------------+ |__|__| || || ooO Ooo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 17:52:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 463931507B for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:52:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10714; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:49:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990413184852.04e25ca0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:49:35 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <61627.924048585@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:09 PM 4/13/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >Brett, there's no excuse for that under any circumstances and this >merely shows the group a lot more about YOU than it does about me. It shows that I care about exposing hypocrisy and poor leadership. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 17:57: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6404F1507B for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 17:56:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA09621; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:55:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:55:02 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Not again... (Was: Re: Charles Henrich a Star?) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990413184852.04e25ca0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > It shows that I care about exposing hypocrisy and poor leadership. Oh, for the love of Mike, please let this bloody thread die. Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 18: 2:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97DAE1507B for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:02:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA08458; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:29:51 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3713E5D7.F0CA7E7B@borg.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:33:31 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: "Mark S. Reichman" Subject: Re: You find the oddest things when you netsearch for your own n Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-Apr-99 Mark S. Reichman wrote: > "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > I read part of your article and just saw that you had an account > on violet.berkeley.edu. I wrote a simple socket while I was at > school (SUNY) in New York that accessed the time port. We used > violet.berkeley.edu as a test machine for the > distant end. What a small network we all compute on. I --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 18:44:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uhura.cc.rochester.edu (uhura.cc.rochester.edu [128.151.224.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F77714DCF for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:44:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dd002f@uhura.cc.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (dd002f@localhost) by uhura.cc.rochester.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA06551; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 21:42:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Davis To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990413180127.04df8330@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Snip lots o' stuff] Is it not just this sort of bickering that has hurt the progress of the BSD projects throughout? I realize that I have not been around long enough to know the half of it (I am probably not even old enough to know the half of it), but from all the history I have read, this seems to have been one of the major problems in the BSD community. It saddens me that even during the short time since I have gotten into FreeBSD, I have been witness to this sort of thing. To be honest, it turns me off to the BSD community. Granted, I have no intention of ditching it, but nor do I have any interest in becoming more involved as it stands now. I think others may experience similar feelings as they enter into the community if this is the norm. FreeBSD seems to have many volatile personalities involved; there is nothing wrong with that in itself, but those who fit this bill should probably step back and try to get some perspective on things before going off on someone. I do not mean to proselytize here, but it truly concerns me to see this sort of thing. I doubt anything that goes on within the community is worth arguing over (perhaps respectful debate, but no more). I merely want FreeBSD to become a significantly larger force than it is currently, as I consider it to be one of the best options available these days. I have a feeling everyone else receiving this shares my desire. So let us exert our energies in pursuit of this goal. -Davis. P.S. I am not normally like this; however more and more these days I see people lose all sense of perspective on things (I am guilty of it myself), and I cannot help but go off about it a little. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 18:47:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shibumi.feralmonkey.org (shibumi.feralmonkey.org [203.41.114.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B57F14DCF for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 18:47:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick@shibumi.feralmonkey.org) Received: from localhost (nick@localhost) by shibumi.feralmonkey.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA00352; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:40:34 GMT (envelope-from nick@shibumi.feralmonkey.org) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:40:32 +0000 (GMT) From: 0x1c To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990413184852.04e25ca0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 05:09 PM 4/13/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >Brett, there's no excuse for that under any circumstances and this > >merely shows the group a lot more about YOU than it does about me. > > It shows that I care about exposing hypocrisy and poor leadership. > > --Brett Glass Is it necessary that everybody see this? Take the pissing contest offline, or at least away from -chat. Nick -- Therefore those skilled at the unorthodox are as infinite as heaven and earth, inexhaustible as the great rivers. -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 19: 3: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80B2F14C10 for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:03:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA11280; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:00:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990413195904.04e421d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:00:24 -0600 To: Davis From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990413180127.04df8330@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I didn't expect it either. I was HORRIBLY disappointed to find out that my offers of help, time, coding, etc. were greeted with disdain. It turned ME off very much. I still have to be on these lists because I support some FreeBSD systems, but I am no longer optimistic about the product. --Brett At 09:42 PM 4/13/99 -0400, Davis wrote: >[Snip lots o' stuff] > >Is it not just this sort of bickering that has hurt the progress of the >BSD projects throughout? I realize that I have not been around long enough >to know the half of it (I am probably not even old enough to know the >half of it), but from all the history I have read, this seems to have been >one of the major problems in the BSD community. > >It saddens me that even during the short time since I have gotten into >FreeBSD, I have been witness to this sort of thing. To be honest, it turns >me off to the BSD community. Granted, I have no intention of ditching it, >but nor do I have any interest in becoming more involved as it stands now. >I think others may experience similar feelings as they enter into the >community if this is the norm. > >FreeBSD seems to have many volatile personalities involved; there is >nothing wrong with that in itself, but those who fit this bill should >probably step back and try to get some perspective on things before going >off on someone. > >I do not mean to proselytize here, but it truly concerns me to see this >sort of thing. I doubt anything that goes on within the community is worth >arguing over (perhaps respectful debate, but no more). I merely want >FreeBSD to become a significantly larger force than it is currently, as I >consider it to be one of the best options available these days. I have a >feeling everyone else receiving this shares my desire. So let us exert our >energies in pursuit of this goal. > >-Davis. > >P.S. I am not normally like this; however more and more these days I see >people lose all sense of perspective on things (I am guilty of it myself), >and I cannot help but go off about it a little. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 19:17:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [207.153.65.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E56514FA7; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 19:17:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id WAA22526; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:14:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 22:14:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , junkmale@xtra.co.nz, Charles Henrich , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990413175507.04df8100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > My kind of PR is EFFECTIVE PR. Your PR, which has burdened FreeBSD > for many years, has set the OS so far behind Linux in market share > and visibility that it may never catch up. Damn, it sucks so much that we're not Linux. Maybe we can beg Becker to write us some code so we can be just like Linux. (That is, if you think you can match each line to a rabid frothing zealot.) -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 20:44:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net.local.net (tcs1-51.netwalk.net [206.175.52.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C1B514D58; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 20:44:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net.local.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA01929; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:41:22 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:43:55 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: Brett Glass Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , junkmale@xtra.co.nz, Charles Henrich , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: [ enough already ] Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990413175507.04df8100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, no matter how you cut it, this is certainly negative PR. If I were a potential user and browsing this list I would certainly be disappointed to see this petty bickering. It's no secret that you two (Jordan and Brett) don't always share the same viewpoint, it would be nice however if you could keep you little flamewars in private mail and not the list. On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Brett Glass wrote: :My kind of PR is EFFECTIVE PR. Your PR, which has burdened FreeBSD :for many years, has set the OS so far behind Linux in market share :and visibility that it may never catch up. : :--Brett Glass : :At 04:26 PM 4/13/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: :>> With all due respect, PR is not one of Jordan's strong points. :> :>With all due respect, *your kind* of PR is not one of my strong points :>and I hope to god it never is. That would be like deciding to become :>a divorce lawyer. :-) :> :>- Jordan : : : :To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org :with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message : : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 23:17:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6278915128; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:17:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA68821; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:16:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:16:02 -0700 Message-ID: <68819.924070562@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-freebsd.html - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 13 23:35: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 92838155CE for ; Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:35:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 6990 invoked by alias); 14 Apr 1999 06:32:40 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 6964 invoked by uid 0); 14 Apr 1999 06:32:40 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 06:32:40 -0000 Message-ID: <37143650.3E962772@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 1999 23:31:44 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) References: <68819.924070562@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-freebsd.html Bookmarked, printed, stapled to the office wall. :-) Ok, ok, they don't let me staple things to the wall. This is great ammo for when someone asks me, "FreeBSD? Is that a Linux distribution?" -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 0:36: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hades.riverstyx.net [216.94.42.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 988AE14D67; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA27614; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:33:50 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:33:49 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Maybe y'all haven't noticed how many rabid frothing zealots exist on both sides of the fence? The difference here, is that there are actually different fences inside the BSD community... show some solidarity, brothers :-) --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > My kind of PR is EFFECTIVE PR. Your PR, which has burdened FreeBSD > > for many years, has set the OS so far behind Linux in market share > > and visibility that it may never catch up. > > Damn, it sucks so much that we're not Linux. > > Maybe we can beg Becker to write us some code so we can be just like > Linux. (That is, if you think you can match each line to a rabid frothing > zealot.) > > -- > | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | > | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | > | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 0:43:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E5D014F40; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:43:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id JAA20576; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:41:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07727; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:41:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:41:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) In-Reply-To: <68819.924070562@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-freebsd.html Great article. Keep up the good work. - Marius - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 0:47:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0114F14ED5 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:47:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id JAA21612; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:44:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA07750; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:44:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:44:33 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: "Jasper O'Malley" Cc: Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Not again... (Was: Re: Charles Henrich a Star?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Oh, for the love of Mike, please let this bloody thread die. *nod* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 1:31:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E87F214D27; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:31:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA31913; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:29:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:29:18 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) Message-ID: <19990414012918.A31874@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <68819.924070562@zippy.cdrom.com> <37143650.3E962772@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <37143650.3E962772@uswest.net>; from Darren Pilgrim on Tue, Apr 13, 1999 at 11:31:44PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 13, 1999 at 11:31:44PM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-freebsd.html > > Bookmarked, printed, stapled to the office wall. :-) Ok, ok, they > don't let me staple things to the wall. This is great ammo for when > someone asks me, "FreeBSD? Is that a Linux distribution?" This is uninformed question number 2 at our Install-A-Thons. What is uninformed question number 1 ? "Does FreeBSD run on Windows 95 ?" Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 3:16:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E525214C32; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 03:15:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990414101526.HSNI5752963.mta2-rme@wocker>; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:15:26 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:13:32 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz In-reply-to: <4.2.0.32.19990413162355.00c458c0@localhost> References: <19990413062214.WDWZ5752963.mta2-rme@wocker> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990414101526.HSNI5752963.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Apr 99, at 16:24, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:20 PM 4/13/99 +1200, Dan Langille wrote: > > >Talk to Jordan. He was bragging last night that he's good at milking the > >most out of stuff like that. He'll guide you along when writing this > >press release. > > With all due respect, PR is not one of Jordan's strong points. With all due respect, I think you have better things to do than jump into the middle of a positive thread and contaminate it with negative crap. Please do not reply to any of my messages in the future. I do not want my name associated with yours. -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 5:33:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9A64150F9; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 05:33:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip107.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.107]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B49093706E; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA00716; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:31:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:31:36 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) Message-ID: <19990414073136.B584@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <68819.924070562@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <68819.924070562@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Tue, Apr 13, 1999 at 11:16:02PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 14, 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-freebsd.html Excellent. More! We need more! > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Chris Costello It's 10 o'clock. Do you know where your child processes are? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 6: 5:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 549F214FA2 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 06:05:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28278 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:03:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA25522 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:03:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:03:18 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Can we cut down on the crossposting please? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think I counted 15 of the last 20 messages from -advocacy over here in -chat as well. Granted I've got a nice free connection, but some people are d/l'ing this stuff over a modem line that they pay for, so for their sake can we only say it once? Especially flame wars of all things! Thanks. --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 6:30:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86CE115752; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 06:30:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id WAA27071; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:27:40 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37148C4C.DA3929D5@newsguy.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:38:36 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) References: <68819.924070562@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-freebsd.html "Linus Torvalds is kind of a Cinderella story: 'Young Finnish computer science student from nowhere makes good,'" he said. By contrast, he said, all the BSD world has to offer is a decades-old code base maintained by grizzled Unixheads. " That was huge improvement over Luke/Yoda, Jordan. :-) -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "nothing better than the ability to perform cunning linguistics" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 7:35:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51C34157A7 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:35:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r45.bfm.org [208.18.213.141]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id KAA03538 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:34:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990414093232.00935870@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:32:32 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Not again... In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:44 14-04-1999 +0200, Marius Bendiksen wrote: >> Oh, for the love of Mike, please let this bloody thread die. > >*nod* I was going to second that, but now I just have to third it. :-) I started using FreeBSD sometime in November, and PR had nothing to do with it. I simply got it because the company that hosts my web site (pair Networks) uses it, and I wanted to be able to develop and test my CGI programs at home without having to telnet to pair all the time. Meanwhile, I am finding myself using FreeBSD more and more, not because of PR but because I like it. As for Jordan, I am amazed that he typically finds the time to respond to so many messages on all the lists. About a decade ago, I used to head a worldwide programming project (Opus, the Fidonet BBS), and it was very hard to try to reply to all the messages directed at me, let alone answer questions posted in echos (the Fidonet name for mailing lists). The members of the Opus team were strong individuals, and we sometimes disagreed (not always, mind you), but we always resolved our disagreements among ourselves. Members of the FreeBSD team are no doubt strong individuals, too. Otherwise they couldn't have possibly done so good a job. So, disagreements and clashes are inevitable. But, IMHO, they are best kept inside the team: That's where they started, that's where they should be resolved. By the way, having headed a major free programming project of worldwide magnitude was an exhausting experience, even though I was relatively young (I was in my late thirties). It led to total burnout. After that, I just resigned, and swore to myself I'd never work on free software again. I started releasing free software again now that I have FreeBSD, but not as a member of a team. I am sure Jordan is not perfect (I know I'm not), but being the head of a team that does all of its work for free is a major headache, and it is nice to see there are still people willing to do that. There is positively no reason to make his work even harder. So, Jordan, all I've got to say to you is: Hang in there, kid! Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 7:44:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF6D9157A7; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:44:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com ([204.68.178.225]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA11248; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:41:41 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <3714A925.37AD00CA@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:41:41 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) References: <68819.924070562@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-freebsd.html > You incompetent, bumbling fool. If you don't shut your yap, we're going to have thousands if not millions of clueless newbies wandering around here asking FAQs, installing FreeBSD on everything in sight (or is that everything in site?), and generally making a mess of things. Oh yeah, that's what we wanted to happen. And who are you calling "grizzled old Unixheads?" ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 9:13:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from octopus.originative (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FC70152B4; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:13:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by octopus with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <2RSVNRPF>; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:09:10 +0100 Message-ID: From: paul@originative.co.uk To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:09:02 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Jordan K. Hubbard [mailto:jkh@zippy.cdrom.com] > Sent: 14 April 1999 07:16 > To: advocacy@freebsd.org > Cc: chat@freebsd.org > Subject: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) > > > http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-fre > ebsd.html I don't think we should pigeon-hole ourselves as a server only OS. With the performance of hardware these days the distinction is not very distinct. One of the reasons NT gets chosen in companies is familiarity with the environment from the desktop. Inside the project it's fair enough to focus the direction on producing the best server platform we can but since that drives the quality of the OS up it makes it a good desktop box as well. Publically I think we should make more universal claims as to what FreeBSD is useful for. We don't genuinely believe that Linux or NT are better desktop boxes do we? Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 9:46:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E90715519; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16642; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:44:06 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990414104114.00b64f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:44:01 -0600 To: Gregory Sutter From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990413220357.D63380@001101.zer0.org> References: <4.2.0.32.19990413175507.04df8100@localhost> <61307.924046009@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.2.0.32.19990413175507.04df8100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:03 PM 4/13/99 -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: >Brett, I think we all liked it better after you said this: >>After pondering, silently, what to do about the attitudes I've seen >>expressed on this list, I've decided that I'd best save my time, >>bandwidth, and effort by resigning from it. Yes, I'm sure you were very proud of yourself and patted yourself on the back for having quelled dissent. No critical thinking allowed here! >Unfortunately, that only lasted about two weeks, and now you're back. No, I'm not "back." I resigned from the advocacy list and still am not on it. You are seeing my messages on that list only because it is a cross-posted topic. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 9:53: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9977715497; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:52:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16717; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:50:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990414104518.00b6ac10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:50:27 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <68819.924070562@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes, an ineffective article which claims that FreeBSD wants to cede the desktop market exclusively to Microsoft, and in the closing paragraphs is equivocal about any advantage that FreeBSD might have over Linux. --Brett Glass At 11:16 PM 4/13/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-freebsd.html > >- Jordan > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 9:57: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 54BB71580F for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:56:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 55438 invoked by uid 1001); 14 Apr 1999 16:54:09 -0000 Date: 14 Apr 1999 09:54:09 -0700 Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:54:09 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Cross Posting... Message-ID: <19990414095409.A55331@dub.net> References: <68819.924070562@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.2.0.32.19990414104518.00b6ac10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990414104518.00b6ac10@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 10:50:27AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can we PLEASE stop this cross-posting madness? There is no need to supply us two copies of the war you insist on waging. Let's just stick to -chat, ok? -Bill On Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 10:50:27AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Yes, an ineffective article which claims that FreeBSD wants to cede the > desktop market exclusively to Microsoft, and in the closing paragraphs > is equivocal about any advantage that FreeBSD might have over Linux. > > --Brett Glass > > At 11:16 PM 4/13/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-freebsd.html > > > >- Jordan -- -=| Bill Swingle - -=| "I hate quotations." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -=| FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! - http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 10: 6:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1300014DC5 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:06:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA58851; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:03:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904141703.KAA58851@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Bill Swingle Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:54:09 PDT." <19990414095409.A55331@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:03:38 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, there is not need to complain if you have a proper mail filter like I do. Amancio > Can we PLEASE stop this cross-posting madness? There is no need to > supply us two copies of the war you insist on waging. Let's just stick > to -chat, ok? > > -Bill > > > On Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 10:50:27AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > Yes, an ineffective article which claims that FreeBSD wants to cede the > > desktop market exclusively to Microsoft, and in the closing paragraphs > > is equivocal about any advantage that FreeBSD might have over Linux. > > > > --Brett Glass > > > > At 11:16 PM 4/13/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-freebsd.html > > > > > >- Jordan > > -- > -=| Bill Swingle - > -=| "I hate quotations." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson > -=| FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! - http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 10: 7:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from main-sd1.artnetonline.com (m0-hh-acr.artnetonline.com [195.90.219.77]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D3F8914F78 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:07:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kuehl@lgk.de) Received: from di-036.hamburg.dialin-gw.net (di-036.hamburg.dialin-gw.net [195.90.225.36]) by main-sd1.artnetonline.com (NTMail 3.03.0013/1.abqk) with ESMTP id na930813 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:04:17 +0200 Content-Length: 1736 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:05:44 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: kuehl@lgk.de From: kuehl@lgk.de To: paul@originative.co.uk Subject: RE: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-Apr-99 paul@originative.co.uk wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jordan K. Hubbard [mailto:jkh@zippy.cdrom.com] >> Sent: 14 April 1999 07:16 >> To: advocacy@freebsd.org >> Cc: chat@freebsd.org >> Subject: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) >> >> >> http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-fre >> ebsd.html > > I don't think we should pigeon-hole ourselves as a server only OS. With the > performance of hardware these days the distinction is not very distinct. > > One of the reasons NT gets chosen in companies is familiarity with the > environment from the desktop. > > Inside the project it's fair enough to focus the direction on producing the > best server platform we can but since that drives the quality of the OS up > it makes it a good desktop box as well. Publically I think we should make > more universal claims as to what FreeBSD is useful for. No. It is a splendid marketting goal, because 1. it defines a clear direction. 2. there are many people out who'd be very keen on having a real Server OS on their desktop boxes. 3. this way FreeBSD does not appear to be threatening established user environments. > We don't genuinely believe that Linux or NT are better desktop boxes do we? We do genuinely believe that FreeBSD is a better Server OS than Linux and NT are, don't we? My deep respect for this well-aimed PR effort! Lars /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ Lars Gerhard Kuehl Phone: +49 40 54768010 Mobile: +49 171 9307085 Fax : +49 40 54768012 Email : kuehl@lgk.de #ifdef is your friend, and everyone's else enemy #endif /* is your friend */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 10:25:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E52EF1572D for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:25:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA59081 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:22:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904141722.KAA59081@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:54:09 PDT." <19990414095409.A55331@dub.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:22:08 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org To eliminate duplicate messages you can use MH's slocal or procmail. From MH's slocal man page: Duplicate Message Suppression slocal is able to detect and supress duplicate messages. To enable this, create two empty files in your $HOME directory: .maildelivery.pag and .maildelivery.dir. These are ndbm files which are used to store the Message-IDs of incoming messages. In FreeBSD just create a .maildelivery.db Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 10:44:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C49B151EA for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:44:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10908; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:42:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:50:27 MDT." <4.2.0.32.19990414104518.00b6ac10@localhost> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:42:33 -0700 Message-ID: <10906.924111753@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yes, an ineffective article which claims that FreeBSD wants to cede the > desktop market exclusively to Microsoft, and in the closing paragraphs > is equivocal about any advantage that FreeBSD might have over Linux. I can clearly see that there's just no pleasing you, Brett, and I guess that's the essential gripe people have with you. You seem to feel that throwing rocks is an effective approach to getting people to follow you and, frankly, that just makes no sense at all. Are you determined to alienate everyone here, or just the 99% you appear to have managed so far? It seems like a lot of effort to exert for that additional 1%. And whatever happened to stomping off in a huff? This has got to be the longest "I'm leaving! I'm slamming the door! I'm getting my car keys out of my pocket!" divorce in history. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 11: 2: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14F815400 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:01:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17474; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:59:32 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990414114712.00cda740@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:59:27 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <10906.924111753@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:42 AM 4/14/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I can clearly see that there's just no pleasing you, Brett, Not so at all. But the current approach to PR is undermining FreeBSD rather than helping it, and this is certainly not pleasing. >You seem to >feel that throwing rocks is an effective approach to getting people to >follow you and, frankly, that just makes no sense at all. When things are going badly, it's important to point that out. In this case, Jordan, I'm afraid that you are playing the part of the Emperor with no clothes -- and counting on your followers to join you in denial. While there may be some resistance when it is pointed out that something is amiss, it is nonetheless very important that someone do so. >And whatever happened to stomping off in a huff? This has got to be >the longest "I'm leaving! I'm slamming the door! I'm getting my car >keys out of my pocket!" divorce in history. :) I'm sure that's what you'd love, Jordan: if no one who disapproved of what you did ever said anything. As it happens, I have already left the FreeBSD advocacy mailing list because there is clearly no point in attempting to do effective advocacy with you at the helm. You are undermining and sabotaging all such efforts. In particular, by voicing support for Microsoft's domination of the desktop and discouraging differentiation of FreeBSD from Linux, you are assuring FreeBSD's slide into obscurity. While I've given up on the advocacy list, I do administer several FreeBSD systems, and must remain subscribed to other lists in order to do this. When I see a particularly egregious example of The Wrong Thing, I may still speak up, though -- again -- I know that you'd rather I didn't point out your role as Emperor Nero, fiddling while FreeBSD goes down the tubes. Fortunately, there is a nascent but growing consensus that something needs to be done, and it pays to support it. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 11:20:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 708B015779 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:20:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA11146; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:18:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:59:27 MDT." <4.2.0.32.19990414114712.00cda740@localhost> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:18:37 -0700 Message-ID: <11144.924113917@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm sure that's what you'd love, Jordan: if no one who disapproved > of what you did ever said anything. That situation will never arise, so it's about as useful to contemplate as the idea of spontaneous world peace. In any case, none of this debate is important nor is it accomplishing anything, so you can continue it by yourself. This is the last message of yours I intend to reply to and if you choose to continue tossing mud at me in -chat, so be it, I simply won't read it. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 11:23:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B55A614F78 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:23:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17755; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:20:47 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990414121939.04e26d00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:20:43 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <11144.924113917@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:18 AM 4/14/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >In any case, none of this debate is important Alas, this exemplifies the importance Mr. Hubbard attaches to advocacy and effective marketing. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 11:36:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bamf.demon.co.uk (bamf.demon.co.uk [158.152.173.140]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B5DEC1582E for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rich@dynamite.org) Received: from clyde (unverified [192.168.1.2]) by clyde.chugaboom.net (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:33:14 +0100 Message-ID: From: "Rich Wood" Organization: dynamite.org To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:33:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) Reply-To: rich@dynamite.org In-reply-to: <4.2.0.32.19990414121939.04e26d00@localhost> References: <11144.924113917@zippy.cdrom.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.02b14) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14 Apr 99, at 12:20, Brett Glass wrote: > Alas, this exemplifies the importance Mr. Hubbard attaches to > advocacy and effective marketing. No. It exemplifies the importance he places upon you. I stopped taking you seriously long ago. I suspect many others did as well. Rich -- rich@dynamite.org If that's what they call normal, I'd rather be insane. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 11:52: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1570815208; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:52:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.133]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA182C; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:49:37 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14432; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:49:55 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:49:55 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, paul@originative.co.uk, kuehl@lgk.de Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-Apr-99 kuehl@lgk.de wrote: > > On 14-Apr-99 paul@originative.co.uk wrote: >> I don't think we should pigeon-hole ourselves as a server only OS. With >> the performance of hardware these days the distinction is not very >> distinct. >> >> One of the reasons NT gets chosen in companies is familiarity with the >> environment from the desktop. And afterwards they still wonder how on earth they could live with that crap... Truely, I cannot imagine people using NT for it being a stable product... And for those wondering, I administered NT, 9x, NetWare, FreeBSD, Linux, AIX, and a few other weird variants... >> Inside the project it's fair enough to focus the direction on producing >> the best server platform we can but since that drives the quality of the >> OS up it makes it a good desktop box as well. Publically I think we >> should make more universal claims as to what FreeBSD is useful for. > > No. It is a splendid marketting goal, because > > 1. it defines a clear direction. Indeed, cut the crap about desktops (well not really, but lets get the attention better out towards server side) and get working on snazzy server stuff... > 2. there are many people out who'd be very keen on > having a real Server OS on their desktop boxes. True, but then we must offer a system that provides a great level of modularity from within /stand/sysinstall / the install utilities in order to reach that point of which we can say that it doesn't matter where one installs FreeBSD and for what goal since it will install only that which the user wants (this _includes_ sendmail). And yes, I have looked at this, and no I have no patches since my time is being devoted into other projects which I place on a slightly higher level. >> We don't genuinely believe that Linux or NT are better desktop boxes do >> we? > > We do genuinely believe that FreeBSD is a better Server OS than > Linux and NT are, don't we? Believe? Facts proof this. Period. The points on which we unfortunately cannot do much is providing system support in the form of drivers due to the limits of the projects availability of hardware and other resources. Mayhaps in a few months I might be able to donate a server towards the Project or at least write the drivers for it. This is something _I_ aspire to and will try to figure out how to do... I think that a lot of people I have met in the last few months have done great work for the total professional representation, e.g.: Jordan himself, although I don't always agree with him I can understand where he's coming from and going to... Dan Langille, Jim Mock, Robert Garrett, for being a stimulating force behind helping new users with FreeBSD with their efforts such as the FreeBSD Diary and the FreeBSD 'zine... Also Robert Garrett and Adrian Chadd for helping me out with the Programmer's Documentation Project. And offcourse Eivind Eklund, Mike Smith, David O'Brien, JKH, and a number of other developers for voicing their advise... Nik Clayton for the Handbook and his help with my schreds into the DocBook universe... Now I ask you (the reader in general): are we doing under for Linux, NT or any other OS out there? I think not... We have maintained a level of professional quality (with exception of interim release 3.0 offcourse) which is continuous in the entire project and which will only keep growing stabler and more professional... For this to succeed we need a core, else we get a chaos system of development like Linus has, and which is not beneficial for the Project. Therefore I ask the core team to be more of a team (again) and try to focus with that team on some future directions for FreeBSD in order to maintain (and even expand) the position of our beloved OS on the server market... I know I am interested in seeing some viewpoints in that area... Sorry for this lengthy mail, but I think it's time we stopped bickering and focused on the road which is ahead of us... We still have a long way to go and internal grudges do not work well... People are who they are, respect them for that... They try to do the best they can in their own way, but words alone don't cover it (that's the main thing I learned in the last months)... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 12: 9:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6E681570C for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:09:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.57.133]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA2D1B; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:06:41 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA14470; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:07:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199904140017.RAA44960@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:07:04 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Brett Glass , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 14-Apr-99 Amancio Hasty wrote: > Just try to ignore each other and lets get back to the topic that is to > find an angle to get good PR for FreeBSD out of the Movie Matrix. Want PR? Get support for more RAID controllers... I got access towards Dell PERCs for those who are messing with the drivers for it... Think the hardware guy will let me play with them, but cannot UPS them to the developer though =( [fwd as neccesary towards -hackers or -current] --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 12:26: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D146214DE6 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:25:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18445; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:22:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990414132112.00d1b480@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:22:15 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990414121939.04e26d00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:59 PM 4/14/99 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >I find it curious that you criticise Jordan for what he did and still does, >while I still have, besides your continuous bemoaning on the mailinglists, >to see any positive action come from your side... I have already taken some very effective action. However, since it is being roundly discouraged, I don't see why I should be expected to do any more. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 12:27:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14FF514DE6 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:27:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA18462; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:24:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990414132231.009b6f10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:24:24 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Amancio Hasty From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" In-Reply-To: References: <199904140017.RAA44960@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:07 PM 4/14/99 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >Want PR? Get support for more RAID controllers... I got access towards Dell >PERCs for those who are messing with the drivers for it... Think the >hardware guy will let me play with them, but cannot UPS them to the >developer though =( RAID would be nice, but how about support for older Adaptec controllers? I've watched several people go to Linux in the past WEEK because FreeBSD has dropped support for this perfectly good older hardware. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 12:51:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eagle.phc.igs.net (eagle.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1EAD14EA9; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:51:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@eagle.phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by eagle.phc.igs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA62799; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:45:51 GMT (envelope-from eagle@eagle.phc.igs.net) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:45:49 +0000 (GMT) From: eagle To: Brett Glass Cc: Gregory Sutter , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990414104114.00b64f00@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:03 PM 4/13/99 -0700, Gregory Sutter wrote: > > >Brett, I think we all liked it better after you said this: > > >>After pondering, silently, what to do about the attitudes I've seen > >>expressed on this list, I've decided that I'd best save my time, > >>bandwidth, and effort by resigning from it. > > Yes, I'm sure you were very proud of yourself and patted yourself > on the back for having quelled dissent. No critical thinking allowed > here! > > >Unfortunately, that only lasted about two weeks, and now you're back. > > No, I'm not "back." I resigned from the advocacy list and still am > not on it. You are seeing my messages on that list only because it is > a cross-posted topic. > > --Brett Glass > Is it just me or has an amazing amount of advocacy tasks been accomplished or in progress since the last time i saw a post from brett.. its time to quit talking and flaming each other and get to work.. Rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 14:10:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (unknown [208.149.16.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B21158FA; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:10:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA25416; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:07:37 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:07:36 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: chuckr@picnic.mat.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <14100.62842.127882.239452@avalon.east> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14101.711.573218.994126@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth Chuck Robey on Wed, 14 April: : ... just so the one guy to : complain *at all* Someone is always the first person to recognize a defect. Until others do, they stand alone. : ...can not lose sleep over something that has causes no : problems at all with any ANSI code in a properly sized system. "properly sized system"? Smirk. Let's redirect this to chat. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 14:22:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A23DE14CAC for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:22:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA57622; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:18:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:18:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Anthony Kimball Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems In-Reply-To: <14101.711.573218.994126@avalon.east> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Anthony Kimball wrote: > Quoth Chuck Robey on Wed, 14 April: > : ... just so the one guy to > : complain *at all* > > Someone is always the first person to recognize a defect. Until > others do, they stand alone. > > : ...can not lose sleep over something that has causes no > : problems at all with any ANSI code in a properly sized system. > > "properly sized system"? Smirk. Let's redirect this to chat. I mean to say by that, if the problem was recognized on a given system it would happen on that system if memory overcommit *wasn't* the policy. The difference is that far less programs would be able to run. Nearly all programs that use lots of malloc, do it sparsely. Stopping memory overcommit would cause a system to begin returning correct data to malloc, at the cost of a small fraction of the number of processes being able to successfully run. One way of looking at this is to focus directly (and only) on malloc, but that is looking at things with blinders on, and asking for fixes that would cause egregious harm to nearly all users. > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@picnic.mat.net | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 14:28:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79D9E158FA; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:28:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id OAA09688; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from utah.XYLAN.COM by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id NAA03720; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:11:46 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com by utah.XYLAN.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (xylan utah [SPOOL])) id OAA26722; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:10:58 -0600 Message-ID: <3714F652.338C50DA@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:10:58 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: eagle Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org eagle wrote: > > Is it just me or has an amazing amount of advocacy tasks been accomplished > or in progress since the last time i saw a post from brett.. It's not just you, progress is being made. > its time to quit talking and flaming each other and get to work.. ^back As Jordan has. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 15: 7:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (unknown [208.149.16.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E4DB15038 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:07:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA25608; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:03:49 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:03:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: chuckr@picnic.mat.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <14101.711.573218.994126@avalon.east> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14101.3956.704332.389742@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth Chuck Robey on Wed, 14 April: : : I mean to say by that, if the problem was recognized on a given system : it would happen on that system if memory overcommit *wasn't* the policy. : The difference is that far less programs would be able to run. Nearly : all programs that use lots of malloc, do it sparsely. Stopping memory : overcommit would cause a system to begin returning correct data to : malloc, at the cost of a small fraction of the number of processes being : able to successfully run. Absolutely. Agreed. Overcommit is a good capability, and one which is typically a Good Thing. : One way of looking at this is to focus directly (and only) on malloc, : but that is looking at things with blinders on, and asking for fixes : that would cause egregious harm to nearly all users. I disagree. The ability to produce a deterministic execution in compliance with the ANSI C standard is a Good Thing too. Being able to specify such behaviour when it is required doesn't cause harm to anyone. I suggested one way to do that. mi suggested another -- discriminating the overcommit-overflow case by sending a distinct signal-related event which can be detected by program. That would be a lot more work, though, at the library level, and would be an inferior solution, in my opinion, for several reasons, among them the possibility of losing the overcommit kill lottery. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 15:29: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (unknown [208.149.16.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A1415985; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA25702; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:25:26 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:25:26 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: sheldonh@iafrica.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <14100.62842.127882.239452@avalon.east> <91577.924128119@axl.noc.iafrica.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14101.5050.590013.685243@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth Sheldon Hearn on Thu, 15 April: : : > : 3. Send patches. : > : > And I certainly don't care enough to do that!-) : : So, what? You're just arguing for fun? If so, then you and everyone else : doing like wise can just piss the hell off. [redirected to chat] No, I'm trying to contribute constructively to a discussion which may affect policy in the future. One party suggested that there was an admitted problem in the current system, but that "we" didn't know how to fix it. I suggested a fix. This makes it easier for anyone who cares enough to (1) write the code, and (2) fight the mugwump politics, to implement a solution to the benefit of everyone who uses the code. Do I care about this particular problem that much? No. My concerns lie elsewhere. I do think it is important the the actual problem be recognized, and that its solvability within acceptable constraints be recognized. Otherwise, people may make bad decisions -- for example, rejecting patches offered by persons for whom this issue is more pressing. Besides, when someone makes a reasonable complaint and is derided unfairly for it, it would be craven and despicable not to co-advocate. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 15:55:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76663157C5 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:55:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA58009; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:49:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Anthony Kimball Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems In-Reply-To: <14101.3956.704332.389742@avalon.east> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Anthony Kimball wrote: > I disagree. The ability to produce a deterministic execution in > compliance with the ANSI C standard is a Good Thing too. But, as long as you keep resources resonable, that's precisely what you get under memory overcommit. If you'd see a failure under memory overcommit, you'd have seen the failure far sooner without memory overcommit. The only other difference is which signal kills your program. With memory overcommit, the chances of that program running without errors, in full ANSI C compliance, are far, far higher. In order to stop that behaviour, you'd need to severely penalize all other programs running on the system. That'd be a wildly *unpopular* feature, causing direct harm to most users, as their programs begin failing much, much more often, due to unnecessary resource starvation. I could there might be one or two special users who would disagree, but it would be something on the order of much less than 1% of users (if they understood what was really at stake). Your statement above gives folks the idea that we are ANSI C non-compliant, and for nearly all situations, that's false. It's only in the failure mode, when you are running more programs than memory allows (including the large magnification allowed by memory overcommit) that you even can tell a difference. Being able > to specify such behaviour when it is required doesn't cause harm to > anyone. I suggested one way to do that. mi suggested another -- > discriminating the overcommit-overflow case by sending a distinct > signal-related event which can be detected by program. That would be > a lot more work, though, at the library level, and would be an > inferior solution, in my opinion, for several reasons, among them > the possibility of losing the overcommit kill lottery. > > > ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@picnic.mat.net | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 16:10:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (unknown [208.149.16.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 690B114D0C for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:10:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA25838; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:07:18 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:07:17 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: chuckr@picnic.mat.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <14101.3956.704332.389742@avalon.east> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14101.7616.979211.817420@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth Chuck Robey on Wed, 14 April: : On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Anthony Kimball wrote: : : > I disagree. The ability to produce a deterministic execution in : > compliance with the ANSI C standard is a Good Thing too. : : But, as long as you keep resources resonable, that's precisely what you : get under memory overcommit. If you'd see a failure under memory : overcommit, you'd have seen the failure far sooner without memory : overcommit. No, this is incorrect: You are confusing failure modes. A portable, well-written program can recognize that malloc failed and take appropriate steps. : The only other difference is which signal kills your : program. No signal kills a program which handles out-of-memory gracefully, in an environment which support ANSI C semantics. : With memory overcommit, the chances of that program running : without errors, in full ANSI C compliance, are far, far higher. Right. I'm not arguing against memory overcommit. I'm arguing that an application should be able to enforce commit. : In order to stop that behaviour, you'd need to severely penalize all : other programs running on the system. No, you don't need to penalize anyone. Overcommit everyone else. Just let my very special and important program execute according to spec, please. : That'd be a wildly *unpopular* : feature, causing direct harm to most users, as their programs begin : failing much, much more often, due to unnecessary resource starvation. I think this is a bugaboo made of FUD. : Your statement above gives : folks the idea that we are ANSI C non-compliant, and for nearly all : situations, that's false. I disagree, to the degree to which compliance requires determinism. Well-written, portable code should be able to rely upon specified determinism. : It's only in the failure mode, when you are : running more programs than memory allows (including the large : magnification allowed by memory overcommit) that you even can tell a : difference. Compliant failure modes are *very* important. Being able to gracefully handle failure is very important. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 16:20:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (unknown [208.149.16.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4384D14D7F for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:20:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA25882; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:17:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:17:15 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: chuckr@picnic.mat.net Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <14101.3956.704332.389742@avalon.east> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14101.8602.996328.135470@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think Andrew Reilly's suggestion of having malloc mmap it's own store file pretty well moots this disagreement. I can scarcely believe I didn't think of it in the first place. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 16:33:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0353714D0E for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:33:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA80093 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:30:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904142330.QAA80093@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: http://www.zdnet.com/zdnn/stories/news/0,4586,2241918,00.html Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:30:22 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It appears that this is FreeBSD Time 8) One of the main stabs at Linux is that it does not have a central testing site well it appears to me that FreeBSD.org serves just that plus central repository and source distribution flang by its huge beta customers!! Okay, I am not that great at advocacy however I do believe that there is enough here to write a great article -- thanks to Bill Gates ! Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 16:48: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85BEF14DAE for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:47:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from outpost.co.nz (b001-m008-p058.wgtn.clear.net.nz [203.167.241.250]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA05238; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:45:32 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199904142345.LAA05238@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> Received: (qmail 5181 invoked from network); 14 Apr 1999 23:32:48 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.acme.gen.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by evil-smelling-bugger.acme.gen.nz with SMTP; 14 Apr 1999 23:32:48 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:32:28 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Jordan The Evil! (was Re: More of my totally ineffective PR effo Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz In-reply-to: <4.2.0.32.19990414114712.00cda740@localhost> References: <10906.924111753@zippy.cdrom.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > As it happens, I have already left the FreeBSD advocacy mailing list > because there is clearly no point in attempting to do effective > advocacy with you at the helm. You are undermining and sabotaging > all such efforts. In particular, by voicing support for Microsoft's > domination of the desktop and discouraging differentiation of > FreeBSD from Linux, you are assuring FreeBSD's slide into obscurity. Okay Brett, name 3 specific examples where Jordan has "undermined and sabotaged" FreeBSD advocacy efforts by anyone. I don't just mean where he says something on a mailing list that conflicts with your viewpoint on an issue. Frankly Brett, I think your arguments are a load of bollocks, and I can't figure out why you persist in the way that you do. I also think that your complaints about FreeBSD advocacy and comparisons *entirely* miss the point. I've said it before and I'll say it again: Linux isn't successful because of a concerted PR effort by a small organised team. Linux achieved its profile through the rabid, half-crazed mutterings of several thousand university students around the world who, as the young and inexperienced tend to do, firmly believed that the OS they were running on their own machines was the single greatest, most reliable, technically advanced operating system in the known universe, irrespective of hard evidence to the contrary. LInux had thousands of wild-eyed zealots, and bucketloads of faith. For a successful religious movement, that's all you need. -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 16:54:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E894914D1F for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:54:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA80238; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:51:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904142351.QAA80238@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: crh@outpost.co.nz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan The Evil! (was Re: More of my totally ineffective PR effo In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:32:28 +1200." <199904142345.LAA05238@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:51:09 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How can we improve FreeBSD PR and image? Amancio Hint: lets focus on useful and productive agendas To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 17:22:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A6E914DB4 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:22:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by mail.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:10:58 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Chuck Robey" , "Anthony Kimball" Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:19:47 -0700 Message-ID: <000101be86d5$ab65bcc0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > But, as long as you keep resources resonable, that's precisely what you > get under memory overcommit. If you'd see a failure under memory > overcommit, you'd have seen the failure far sooner without memory > overcommit. The only other difference is which signal kills your > program. With memory overcommit, the chances of that program running > without errors, in full ANSI C compliance, are far, far higher. There is a very significant difference between failures a programmer can plan for and expect, such as malloc or fork returning a sensible error code, and failures a programmer cannot plan for or expect, such as receiving a fatal signal when performing a simple assignment operation. If a programmer doesn't correctly handle the case where malloc returns NULL, that's his fault. If the system returns him a pointer to memory and he faults when he tries to access it, that's not. It should, ideally, be at least possible to write programs that run reliably. That doesn't mean that some people won't want to be able to overcommit. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 17:25:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2267815329 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:25:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by mail.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:14:21 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: , Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:23:10 -0700 Message-ID: <000201be86d6$2464ed30$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <14101.8602.996328.135470@avalon.east> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I think Andrew Reilly's suggestion of having malloc > mmap it's own store file pretty well moots this disagreement. > I can scarcely believe I didn't think of it in the first place. You are assuming that malloc is the only overcommit case. I do not believe this is true. I believe that fork can cause an overcommit too. Likewise, even simply running multiple copies of the same executable causes an overcommit case. This may solve something, but it's not the general overcommit problem. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 17:27:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uhura.cc.rochester.edu (uhura.cc.rochester.edu [128.151.224.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFD5314D18 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:27:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dd002f@uhura.cc.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (dd002f@localhost) by uhura.cc.rochester.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA18542 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:25:11 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:25:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Davis To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD PR In-Reply-To: <199904142351.QAA80238@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I am not certain of a good way to accomplish this, but I think an excellent way to start is to aim at college students (in much the way that Microsoft is). Currently, many of my peers are completely unaware of FreeBSD, aside from some hardcore computer geeks (of course, I do my best to make them aware). If people start using FreeBSD during college years (perhaps the time of greatest increase in computer exposure for many, myself included), they will likely be hooked for life; I should know, I think I may be hooked myself. (= There is the added advantage amongst college students in that many dorms these days are equipped with Ethernet, offering the perfect testing ground for those who wish to learn (read: fool around with) http/ftp serving and the like. These may very well be tomorrow's sysadmins. Of course, I really do not know specifically how we might accomplish this. FreeBSD boot disks for all the comp. sci., math, and physics majors? (just kidding) Seriously, though, I think just making FreeBSD known in my neighborhood and emphasizing its strong networking abilities would do some good. Just my opinion. Feel free to call me a fool. I am young, so I am allowed to have silly ideas. (= -Davis On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote: >How can we improve FreeBSD PR and image? > > Amancio >Hint: lets focus on useful and productive agendas > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 17:38:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B91A15956 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA80500; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904150035.RAA80500@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Davis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD PR In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:25:11 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:35:02 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think we need a couple of themes or stories. Virus Vaccine: Get FreeBSD, The Next Unix Generation ! NATOs NT web site defense crumbles under the weight of 2000 email messages! Huh, My FreeBSD box handles that in less than hour and I can boot a full fledge system from a single floppy. Amancio To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 17:38:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65F4E14D18 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:38:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: from bb-b1-11a (ppp91.pm3-0.pdx.dsinw.com [207.149.41.91]) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA25265; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:34:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:34:30 -0700 () From: Rick Hamell To: Davis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD PR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: hamellr@dsinw.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I am not certain of a good way to accomplish this, but I think an > excellent way to start is to aim at college students (in much the way that > Microsoft is). Currently, many of my peers are completely unaware of How about starting local user groups? :) I'm doing it.... Take a clue from the Linux people, have local install-a-thons... I have one tentavily scheduled in July... Expound upon the abilities of FreeBSD to anyone who will listen. Again, follow the lead of the Linux people, put FreeBSD boxes in your IS department to take over mission critical applications. At my current job I'm working on not only moving our servers from Novell/NT to FreeBSD, BUT I'm working on porting our industry specific software from Win95/98/DOS to FreeBSD.... Which will add another selling point to our software and give us increased compatibility... :) Luckily my bosses are of the 'do what you want, just as long as it dosen't cost us money' mentallity. :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 17:47: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 03FB514E05 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:47:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 24306 invoked by alias); 15 Apr 1999 00:44:41 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 24285 invoked by uid 0); 15 Apr 1999 00:44:40 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 15 Apr 1999 00:44:40 -0000 Message-ID: <37153640.D419C366@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:43:44 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) References: <68819.924070562@zippy.cdrom.com> <37143650.3E962772@uswest.net> <19990414012918.A31874@ontario.mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: > On Tue, Apr 13, 1999 at 11:31:44PM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >> "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >>> http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-freebsd.html >> >> Bookmarked, printed, stapled to the office wall. :-) Ok, ok, they >> don't let me staple things to the wall. This is great ammo for when >> someone asks me, "FreeBSD? Is that a Linux distribution?" > > This is uninformed question number 2 at our Install-A-Thons. What is > uninformed question number 1 ? > > "Does FreeBSD run on Windows 95 ?" It runs on Windows, you install it with the fdisk program. :-) -- dpilgrim@uswest.net /\ / __ Our lies are merely the gryph@mindless.com / \/OC/URNE truth of another world ICQ: 29880099 Death is not a kill -9, just a DALnet: anim0s make world and shutdown -r now PGPKey available To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 18:23:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11CC14BEF; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 18:23:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA24398; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:51:17 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA25896; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:51:15 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990415105115.H23745@lemis.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:51:15 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Darren Pilgrim , jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) References: <68819.924070562@zippy.cdrom.com> <37143650.3E962772@uswest.net> <19990414012918.A31874@ontario.mooseriver.com> <37153640.D419C366@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <37153640.D419C366@uswest.net>; from Darren Pilgrim on Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 05:43:44PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 14 April 1999 at 17:43:44 -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Josef Grosch wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 13, 1999 at 11:31:44PM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >>> "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >>>> http://www.internetworld.com/print/current/webdev/19990412-freebsd.html >>> >>> Bookmarked, printed, stapled to the office wall. :-) Ok, ok, they >>> don't let me staple things to the wall. This is great ammo for when >>> someone asks me, "FreeBSD? Is that a Linux distribution?" >> >> This is uninformed question number 2 at our Install-A-Thons. What is >> uninformed question number 1 ? >> >> "Does FreeBSD run on Windows 95 ?" > > It runs on Windows, you install it with the fdisk program. :-) "Sure you can run FreeBSD on Windows 95. After that, you'll never run Windows again". Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 19:34:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (unknown [208.149.16.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D8A01513A for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:34:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA26551; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:31:14 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:31:14 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: davids@webmaster.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: swap-related problems References: <14101.8602.996328.135470@avalon.east> <000201be86d6$2464ed30$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14101.20211.969312.765706@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth David Schwartz on Wed, 14 April: : > I think Andrew Reilly's suggestion of having malloc : > mmap it's own store file pretty well moots this disagreement. : > I can scarcely believe I didn't think of it in the first place. : : You are assuming that malloc is the only overcommit case. I do not believe : this is true. I believe that fork can cause an overcommit too. Likewise, : even simply running multiple copies of the same executable causes an : overcommit case. : : This may solve something, but it's not the general overcommit problem. It solves the ANSI C compliance problem, which is one whose significance I understand fairly well, although I do not have to deal with it myself. ANSI C doesn't specify the behaviour of fork. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 19:50:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C17E14F44 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:50:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by mail.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:39:26 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:48:13 -0700 Message-ID: <000401be86ea$67f596d0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <14101.20211.969312.765706@avalon.east> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org : > : You are assuming that malloc is the only overcommit case. I > do not believe > : this is true. I believe that fork can cause an overcommit too. Likewise, > : even simply running multiple copies of the same executable causes an > : overcommit case. > : > : This may solve something, but it's not the general > overcommit problem. > > It solves the ANSI C compliance problem, which is one whose > significance I understand fairly well, although I do not have to deal > with it myself. ANSI C doesn't specify the behaviour of fork. What about running multiple copies of the same executable? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 19:52:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (mail2.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB86F14F44 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 19:52:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-73-220.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.73.220]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA05670 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:50:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA06053 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:50:30 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199904150250.WAA06053@bellsouth.net> To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:22:15 MDT." <4.2.0.32.19990414132112.00d1b480@localhost> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:50:30 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, just cool it a bit, eh? I believe the radical fringe might have its role but you've bent way beyond that to outright meanness. It's probably not even necessary for FreeBSD to command a large market share for it to be successful and to endure. I'm betting that it will though. In a user supported environment, like this one, it is very important that we treat each other with dignity and respect. Otherwise we might as well just concede to the unruly nature of the Linux mob you seem to dislike so much. Personally, I'm *glad* they exist. Jordan, I deeply appreciate your efforts and dedication to this project. I believe that you've shown great leadership and although I may disagree with some of your positions I have great respect for your accomplishments. It's amazing to me that you've been able to sustain your energy level all these years. I believe that your tactic of "walking softly and carrying a big stick" is right on. Can't we all just get along? (Sorry Rodney) Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 20: 2: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (unknown [208.149.16.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E02014F44 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:01:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id VAA26662; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:58:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:58:42 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: davids@webmaster.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: swap-related problems References: <14101.20211.969312.765706@avalon.east> <000401be86ea$67f596d0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14101.21892.460225.807747@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth David Schwartz on Wed, 14 April: : > : > It solves the ANSI C compliance problem, which is one whose : > significance I understand fairly well, although I do not have to deal : > with it myself. ANSI C doesn't specify the behaviour of fork. : : What about running multiple copies of the same executable? Can't affect ANSI compliance since it is outside the C world. Nor should it be a practical problem, since one just supplies distinct backing files. Inelegant perhaps, is the worst I could say of it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 20: 6:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (mail2.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5678314F44 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:06:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-73-220.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.73.220]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA15255; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA06097; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:04:16 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199904150304.XAA06097@bellsouth.net> To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: (removed by request) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:24:24 MDT." <4.2.0.32.19990414132231.009b6f10@localhost> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:04:16 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > RAID would be nice, but how about support for older Adaptec controllers? > I've watched several people go to Linux in the past WEEK because FreeBSD > has dropped support for this perfectly good older hardware. I suppose that you are referring to the AIC6360 controllers? They were an unfortunate casualty of the CAM progress and there is some ongoing work towards getting them revived. The older driver seems to have a few problems anyway, so the loss doesn't seem that great to me (and I *really* need that driver). No way _I'm_ switching to Linux because of this relatively minor inconvenience. We'll just use 2.2.8-STABLE on those boxes for now -- *shrug* I've been trying to convince a customer to pay Justin for the work to implement a new driver. Since they have a vested interest in the matter, this might happen. Those controllers are used extensively in the embedded STD-32 world. Be Happier, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 20:27:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C485156D8 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:27:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07971; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:24:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA06910; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:24:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:24:43 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Davis Subject: RE: FreeBSD PR Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15-Apr-99 Davis wrote: > Just my opinion. Feel free to call me a fool. I am young, so I am allowed > to have silly ideas. (= The reason I use BSD is that the CS department here uses, at least for the moment. In fact, myself and the other admins in the department are in a religous war because some of the faculty want to switch to Linux because it is more popular and because according to them, technical issues such as cost of support and reliability are irrelevant, despite the fact that FreeBSD servers run much the undergrad lab (which I help administrate) and the grad lab. Oh, well. I'm even convincing some non-CS majors in my dorm to try BSD instead of Windows. They are already impressed with the increased speed of even Netscape. > -Davis --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 20:27:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2B6B1526F for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 20:27:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07975; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:24:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA08043; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:24:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199904141722.KAA59081@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:24:44 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Cc: FreeBSD Chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Paying dial-up customers still have to pay to download a message just so it can get re-routed to /dev/null, so it is still more courteous to not crosspost entire threads. On 14-Apr-99 Amancio Hasty wrote: > > To eliminate duplicate messages you can use MH's slocal or procmail. > > From MH's slocal man page: > > > Duplicate Message Suppression > slocal is able to detect and supress duplicate messages. > To enable this, create two empty files in your $HOME > directory: .maildelivery.pag and .maildelivery.dir. These > are ndbm files which are used to store the Message-IDs of > incoming messages. > > In FreeBSD just create a .maildelivery.db > > Amancio > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 21:18:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C1615016 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:18:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-168.thuntek.net [207.66.52.168]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id WAA23847; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:15:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37156795.23B4D9C@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:14:13 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Davis , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD PR References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Not silly, what you need to do is to make some FreeBSD web/samba servers _publicly_available_ on your college network. Once people try, they will buy! -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 21:35: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE7614C03 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:34:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by mail.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:23:50 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 21:32:36 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be86f8$fcd4d2d0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-reply-to: <14101.21892.460225.807747@avalon.east> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Can't affect ANSI compliance since it is outside the C world. > Nor should it be a practical problem, since one just supplies > distinct backing files. Inelegant perhaps, is the worst I could > say of it. I'm not sure I'm following you. How are you suggesting a person write a portable application so that copy-on-write of its code or libraries doesn't cause it to blow up in an overcommit situation? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 22:30:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uhura.cc.rochester.edu (uhura.cc.rochester.edu [128.151.224.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4808150DB for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:30:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dd002f@uhura.cc.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (dd002f@localhost) by uhura.cc.rochester.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id BAA22553 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:27:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:27:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Davis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD PR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Rick Hamell wrote: > How about starting local user groups? :) I'm doing it.... Take a >clue from the Linux people, have local install-a-thons... I have one >tentavily scheduled in July... Expound upon the abilities of FreeBSD to >anyone who will listen. Again, follow the lead of the Linux people, put >FreeBSD boxes in your IS department to take over mission critical >applications. At my current job I'm working on not only moving our servers >from Novell/NT to FreeBSD, BUT I'm working on porting our industry >specific software from Win95/98/DOS to FreeBSD.... Which will add another >selling point to our software and give us increased compatibility... :) >Luckily my bosses are of the 'do what you want, just as long as it dosen't >cost us money' mentallity. :) > > > > Rick > I like the user group thing, but I am not in a good position to do something too involved myself. I graduate in a year, and considering the lack of FreeBSD users on this campus (I only know of 1 other user, who is not even a student), it would be tough to get something like that off the ground before I would have to leave it behind. However, it may be worth trying regardless, if I can stir up some amount of interest. Out of curiosity, is there some sort of list of existing FreeBSD user groups? I would be interested to see if there are any nearby who may be willing to help create some interest among the students here. -Davis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 22:34:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEAE1150DB for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:34:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: (from hamellr@localhost) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id WAA05910; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:29:58 -0700 (PDT) From: rick hamell To: Davis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD PR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Out of curiosity, is there some sort of list of existing FreeBSD user > groups? I would be interested to see if there are any nearby who may be > willing to help create some interest among the students here. Well, the one I've got at http://www.grendal.org/freebsd/ug.html looks like it will soon be superceeded by an 'official' list (per chatter here earlier this week.) There is also another list of groups on www.freebsd.org I believe I have a link to that from the above page. :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 22:48:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62E9C150DB for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:48:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from outpost.co.nz (b001-m006-p018.wgtn.clear.net.nz [203.167.241.82]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id RAA06361; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:45:44 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199904150545.RAA06361@fep1-orange.clear.net.nz> Received: (qmail 5599 invoked from network); 15 Apr 1999 03:24:14 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.acme.gen.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by evil-smelling-bugger.acme.gen.nz with SMTP; 15 Apr 1999 03:24:14 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:23:52 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz In-reply-to: <19990415105115.H23745@lemis.com> References: <37153640.D419C366@uswest.net>; from Darren Pilgrim on Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 05:43:44PM -0700 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "Does FreeBSD run on Windows 95 ?" FreeBSD doesn't run on Windows 95, it tramples! -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 22:57: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46991153C1; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:56:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: (from hamellr@localhost) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id WAA06571; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 22:52:46 -0700 (PDT) From: rick hamell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) In-Reply-To: <199904150545.RAA06361@fep1-orange.clear.net.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > "Does FreeBSD run on Windows 95 ?" > > FreeBSD doesn't run on Windows 95, it tramples! Windows 95? Hmmm... can't say that I've ever heard of it... oh wait, I remeber something in the news a while back about that... Bob... um... what'shisname and Windows 95. :) Rick ---- "Religion exists because man can't belive that he's nothing more then a random accident." http://www.grendal.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 23: 9: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (unknown [208.149.16.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57FAC14F06 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:09:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA27293; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:05:58 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:05:57 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: davids@webmaster.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: swap-related problems References: <14101.21892.460225.807747@avalon.east> <000001be86f8$fcd4d2d0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14101.32737.825891.700729@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth David Schwartz on Wed, 14 April: : : I'm not sure I'm following you. How are you suggesting a person write a : portable application so that copy-on-write of its code or libraries doesn't : cause it to blow up in an overcommit situation? I'm not -- but at least the parent of a child that dies in this way can detect it. And it won't die because of an operation which the ANSI C standard specifies should be legal and return null was performed, if mmap-backed malloc is used. Which is an improvement. Your comments point out that the issue is much more grey than my earlier postings have painted it: A reliable malloc is insufficient to prevent over-commit death. Okay, so it's not good enough, practically. Let's do better: How about an mmap-backed fork? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 23:18:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1D7F14F06 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:18:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by mail.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:07:12 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:15:58 -0700 Message-ID: <000101be8707$6d42ae80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <14101.32737.825891.700729@avalon.east> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Okay, so it's not good enough, practically. Let's do better: > How about an mmap-backed fork? Better, IMO, would be a system call you could invoke that would cause all of your process' (current and future) memory to be mmap-backed. This includes all current copy-on-write pages. The call could, of course, fail with an ENOMEM if necessary. This would allow a process to be guaranteed long-term reliable operation so long as it correctly handled all error codes. Though probably nobody would use it, it would also be nice to have a system-level flag to set all processes to default to this mode. Just so that you can say that FreeBSD can be 100% reliable in this respect if you want it to. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 23:29:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shibumi.feralmonkey.org (shibumi.feralmonkey.org [203.41.114.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EF4714F06 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:29:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick@shibumi.feralmonkey.org) Received: from localhost (nick@localhost) by shibumi.feralmonkey.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA02343 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:23:38 GMT (envelope-from nick@shibumi.feralmonkey.org) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:23:36 +0000 (GMT) From: 0x1c To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: another company supporting freebsd Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If there's a page for companies/products that support freebsd, add this one to it. http://www.uk.sohpos.com. They produce anti-virus products and have an evaluation copy for FreeBSD/Intel. :) Nick -- Therefore those skilled at the unorthodox are as infinite as heaven and earth, inexhaustible as the great rivers. -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 14 23:33:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A119014F06 for ; Wed, 14 Apr 1999 23:33:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA05645; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:01:14 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:05:37 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: 0x1c Subject: RE: another company supporting freebsd Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15-Apr-99 0x1c wrote: > If there's a page for companies/products that support freebsd, add this > one to it. http://www.uk.sohpos.com. They produce anti-virus products and > have an evaluation copy for FreeBSD/Intel. :) You mean http://www.{,uk.}sophos.com? --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 0:12:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shibumi.feralmonkey.org (shibumi.feralmonkey.org [203.41.114.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 683D014C83 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 00:12:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick@shibumi.feralmonkey.org) Received: from localhost (nick@localhost) by shibumi.feralmonkey.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA02432; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:06:34 GMT (envelope-from nick@shibumi.feralmonkey.org) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:06:32 +0000 (GMT) From: 0x1c To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: another company supporting freebsd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 15-Apr-99 0x1c wrote: > > If there's a page for companies/products that support freebsd, add this > > one to it. http://www.uk.sohpos.com. They produce anti-virus products and > > have an evaluation copy for FreeBSD/Intel. :) > > You mean http://www.{,uk.}sophos.com? Yep. Forgive my typo. :) > > --- > Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer > for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au > "The nice thing about standards is that there > are so many of them to choose from." > -- Andrew Tanenbaum > Nick -- Therefore those skilled at the unorthodox are as infinite as heaven and earth, inexhaustible as the great rivers. -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 0:15:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BEAC14C83 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 00:15:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA06082; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:43:19 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:47:41 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: 0x1c Subject: RE: another company supporting freebsd Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15-Apr-99 0x1c wrote: > > You mean http://www.{,uk.}sophos.com? > Yep. Forgive my typo. :) No problem, this tool seems very useful :) I'm trying to work out if/how it does mail checking, which would be very handy for FreeBSD mail gateways methinks.. (Then again I can imagine the pain when integrating with sendmail...) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 0:31: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shibumi.feralmonkey.org (shibumi.feralmonkey.org [203.41.114.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7542914C21 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 00:31:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick@shibumi.feralmonkey.org) Received: from localhost (nick@localhost) by shibumi.feralmonkey.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA02486; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:24:57 GMT (envelope-from nick@shibumi.feralmonkey.org) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:24:55 +0000 (GMT) From: 0x1c To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: another company supporting freebsd In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > No problem, this tool seems very useful :) > > I'm trying to work out if/how it does mail checking, which would be very handy > for FreeBSD mail gateways methinks.. > (Then again I can imagine the pain when integrating with sendmail...) The company I work for sells a similar product for NT. The way it works is extracts attachments to a temporary directory and scans them. Depending on the error code, you know whether there is a virus or not. Pretty simple in theory. :) Nick -- Therefore those skilled at the unorthodox are as infinite as heaven and earth, inexhaustible as the great rivers. -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 0:38: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eagle.phc.igs.net (eagle.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28D6614C21 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 00:38:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@eagle.phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by eagle.phc.igs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id CAA67194; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 02:34:41 GMT (envelope-from eagle@eagle.phc.igs.net) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 02:34:40 +0000 (GMT) From: eagle To: Davis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD PR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Davis wrote: > > > On Wed, 14 Apr 1999, Rick Hamell wrote: > > > How about starting local user groups? :) I'm doing it.... Take a > >clue from the Linux people, have local install-a-thons... I have one > >tentavily scheduled in July... Expound upon the abilities of FreeBSD to > >anyone who will listen. Again, follow the lead of the Linux people, put > >FreeBSD boxes in your IS department to take over mission critical > >applications. At my current job I'm working on not only moving our servers > >from Novell/NT to FreeBSD, BUT I'm working on porting our industry > >specific software from Win95/98/DOS to FreeBSD.... Which will add another > >selling point to our software and give us increased compatibility... :) > >Luckily my bosses are of the 'do what you want, just as long as it dosen't > >cost us money' mentallity. :) > > > > > > > > Rick > > > > > I like the user group thing, but I am not in a good position to do > something too involved myself. I graduate in a year, and considering the > lack of FreeBSD users on this campus (I only know of 1 other user, who is > not even a student), it would be tough to get something like that off the > ground before I would have to leave it behind. However, it may be worth > trying regardless, if I can stir up some amount of interest. > > Out of curiosity, is there some sort of list of existing FreeBSD user > groups? I would be interested to see if there are any nearby who may be > willing to help create some interest among the students here. > > -Davis there is a list on the freebsd site however its umm slightly out of date, once again if you have a freebsd user group and I havent contacted you, please send me current details.. rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 1: 2:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0F4C15878 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:02:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11009 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199904150800.BAA11009@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: BayAreaFreeBSDJobs.txt,v 1.4 1999/03/19 16:25:54 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 1: 2:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14DBF14C21 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:02:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11070 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:00:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199904150800.BAA11070@agora.bafug.org> Subject: FreeBSD Counter Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: CounterPageAnnounce.txt,v 1.9 1999/03/19 16:26:06 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 1: 2:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB4BD158E3 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:02:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11110 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:00:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199904150800.BAA11110@agora.bafug.org> Subject: FreeBSD Retail Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:00:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: RetailAnnounce.txt,v 1.5 1999/03/19 16:25:34 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 1: 2:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75BEF158B8 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:02:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA11093 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:00:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199904150800.BAA11093@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area Install-A-Thon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:00:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Install-A-Thon BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) will hold it's monthly Install-A-Thon in conjunction with the Robert Austin computer show on April 10th at the Oakland Convention Center and Cow Palace in Daly City on April 24th. The purpose of these Install-A-Thons is for new and experienced user to meet and solve problem they are having with FreeBSD. It is also a time to promote FreeBSD to potential users. The Oakland Convention Center is in downtown Oakland on the corner of 10th street and Clay Street. There is come on the street parking but your best bet is lot parking. The Cow Palace is in Daly City on the corner of Geneva and Santos. Parking is $5.00. Street parking is available but _VERY_ limited. Admission to the show is $5.00 unless you have a VIP pass. VIP passes can be gotten at Robert Austin's web page (http://www.robertaustin.com). The show hours are 10:00am to 4:00pm. We will be meeting at the Cow Palace or the Oakland convention center, respectively at 9:00am to setup and will be there till 4 when the show closes. Tear down usually takes about 30 minutes. If you are interested in helping please contact Josef Grosch - jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Nicole Harrington - nicole@mediacity.com More information about the show can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Install.html This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: InstallAnnounce.txt,v 1.11 1999/03/19 16:26:30 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 1: 3:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F1D271531A for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:03:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 22432 invoked by uid 1000); 15 Apr 1999 08:03:54 -0000 Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:03:54 +0200 From: Andreas Braukmann To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: another company supporting freebsd Message-ID: <19990415100354.B22409@paert.tse-online.de> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Daniel O'Connor on Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 04:05:37PM +0930 Organization: TSE TeleService GmbH Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, On Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 04:05:37PM +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > If there's a page for companies/products that support freebsd, add this > > one to it. http://www.uk.sohpos.com. They produce anti-virus products and > > have an evaluation copy for FreeBSD/Intel. :) > You mean http://www.{,uk.}sophos.com? ... I'm working on a port for the sophos product; but since I have to do it in my non-existing spare time it may take a little while .. There's also the 'avp' (sorry no url at hand) virus-scanner for linux. It's even free for personal use, but it seems to be a rather raw port of the DOS/Win-Version. (I didn't really tested 'avp', yet) -andreas -- : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 1: 7:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E8D31531A for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:07:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id KAA09510; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:05:15 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15830; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:05:15 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:05:15 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-Reply-To: <199904141703.KAA58851@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Actually, there is not need to complain if you have a proper mail filter like > I do. That is miles besides the point. Some people don't, and many use dialup connections to recieve their mail. If Brett wants to flame Jordan, he should at the very least take it to a single list, rather than crossposting. - Marius - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 1:14:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1E6014E22 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:14:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id KAA11717; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:12:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15847; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:12:05 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:12:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Rich Wood Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No. It exemplifies the importance he places upon you. I stopped taking you > seriously long ago. I suspect many others did as well. Very good point. I've considered unsubscribing to the list due to the volumes of mail coming in with Brett as a one-man swat team gone amok in a public park.... - Maris - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 1:14:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B83614C56 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:14:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 91835 invoked by uid 1003); 15 Apr 1999 10:10:54 -0000 Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:10:54 +0000 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Davis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD PR Message-ID: <19990415101054.A87661@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: <199904142351.QAA80238@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Davis on Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 08:25:11PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed 1999-04-14 (20:25), Davis wrote: > I am not certain of a good way to accomplish this, but I think an > excellent way to start is to aim at college students (in much the way that > Microsoft is). Currently, many of my peers are completely unaware of > FreeBSD, aside from some hardcore computer geeks (of course, I do my best > to make them aware). If people start using FreeBSD during college years > (perhaps the time of greatest increase in computer exposure for many, > myself included), they will likely be hooked for life; I should know, I > think I may be hooked myself. (= I was in the lucky position to arrive at the university that I did, which had a student computer society that provided tons of services (nice email address, web pages, irc, etc) and I was immediately snapped up by the process and ended up becoming one of the sysadmin, and in charge of giving courses. I think the system we have here is very good - we have a few clued people arriving every year, for their first year they hate us and try and break the system, and then by their second year they're our friends, we teach them things, and they teach us things. All through the year a team of people who use computers give courses from WordPerfect and other applications provided on the Windows systems in the labs, to advanced subjects, CGI, Apache administration, make, perl, the ports system, etc. This way we get our money for providing the courses for the people not really interested in the Unix side, and the clued people will start to realize we only give lame courses, and start to go to the ones that sound interesting, and so on. Since the local national Science and Arts festivals are hosted in our city, and we're the clued computer people in the city (according to the organizers, and even the Computer Science department), we give courses on using the Web to designing serious Web pages, and we get to have a course or two on "Unix, the alternative Operating System" (or something like that), and get to expound on how much FreeBSD [and Linux] rules compared to NT, with CDs on sale (for free next year), etc. Since Geoff Rehmet got involved with the society just after its inception, the society and the entire [clued] university student computer movement is FreeBSD-related, leaving a rich heritage to pass on as people leave, and new people arrive. (although we despair at leaving the society in the hands of the "hax0r-kiddies", our current bunch of friendly second years). > Of course, I really do not know specifically how we might accomplish this. > FreeBSD boot disks for all the comp. sci., math, and physics majors? (just > kidding) Seriously, though, I think just making FreeBSD known in my > neighborhood and emphasizing its strong networking abilities would do some > good. We're planning an installathon or two soon, and with our membership fee of only R35 (roughly 4-6 bottles of 2 litre cokes for international comparison), we manage to squish in a serious amount of advocacy and education. We also go behind the university's back and install FreeBSD servers for departments that want them for web or dial-up, since NT just doesn't seem to cut it for even them, and security is a huge problem. Another advantage we're accumulating is a reputation for being a FreeBSD-based university, which we try to cultivate, to make sure we start getting people who are clued to FreeBSD already heading our way, instead of converting or teaching people. Of course, we're also planning on extending this to other universities in the country, which seem to have poorly run, or more of a hax0r (as opposed to hacker) culture. (You may see the occasional pipe from und.ac.za, which is our cultural FreeBSD brother of sorts) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 1:30:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EE6214C30 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:30:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA83121; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:26:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904150826.BAA83121@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:05:15 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 01:26:57 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, I bet that the ones complaining about cross-posting are due to lack of a proper filter and not so much because they are paying for their dial up access as for the "flame war" it is gone . Long time ago we had time this problem on the mailing lists and the complains went down after people started using mail duplicate filters. Should people restrain themselves from cross-postings? Absolutly, nevertheless people still do so I put a filter on my system. Not sure if it matters to this argument however I pay for my net connection Amancio > > Actually, there is not need to complain if you have a proper mail filter like > > I do. > > That is miles besides the point. > > Some people don't, and many use dialup connections to recieve their mail. > > If Brett wants to flame Jordan, he should at the very least take it to a > single list, rather than crossposting. > > - Marius - > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 2:19:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6135014BE2 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 02:19:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id LAA22957; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:17:11 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: Rich Wood , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: More of my totally ineffective PR efforts in action. :-) References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 15 Apr 1999 11:17:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: Marius Bendiksen's message of "Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:12:05 +0200 (CEST)" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marius Bendiksen writes: > > No. It exemplifies the importance he places upon you. I stopped taking you > > seriously long ago. I suspect many others did as well. > Very good point. I've considered unsubscribing to the list due to the > volumes of mail coming in with Brett as a one-man swat team gone amok > in a public park.... Killfile, m'boy, *killfile* DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 2:34: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB51D153C1 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 02:34:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from suzy (modem21.masternet.it [194.184.65.31]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id JAA01477 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:31:33 GMT (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990415062639.0096eb30@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.4 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 06:30:04 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: login and chroot Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'd like to know when the (Licia) chroot modification to the login will be committed. I want to wipe out the restricted shell. :-) If it can be expanded to include also ftpd it will be great. Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 2:37:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (notabene.zer0.org [206.24.105.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90FCD157F6 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 02:37:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id CAA14498; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 02:34:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 02:34:57 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: 0x1c Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: another company supporting freebsd Message-ID: <19990415023457.B5762@001101.zer0.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from 0x1c on Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 05:23:36PM +0000 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 05:23:36PM +0000, 0x1c wrote: > If there's a page for companies/products that support freebsd, add this > one to it. http://www.uk.sohpos.com. They produce anti-virus products and > have an evaluation copy for FreeBSD/Intel. :) There is such a page. It is: http://dmoz.org/Computers/Operating_Systems/Unix/FreeBSD/Companies/ and you can suggest the addition yourself by selecting the "Add URL" link at the top of that page. The page is part of a larger FreeBSD hierarchy, which can be accessed by removing the directory "Companies" from the above URL. Regards, Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Mostly Harmless mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 3:33:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (news-ma.rhein-neckar.de [193.197.90.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 097E21512B for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 03:33:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: from mips.rhein-neckar.de (uucp@localhost) by news-ma.rhein-neckar.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with bsmtp id MAA00212 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:31:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de) Received: by mips.rhein-neckar.de id m10Xj5w-000WyYC (Debian Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #2); Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:10:04 +0200 (CEST) From: naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de (Christian Weisgerber) Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Date: 15 Apr 1999 12:10:01 +0200 Message-ID: <7f4dtp$lc1$1@mips.rhein-neckar.de> References: <19990414095409.A55331@dub.net> <199904141722.KAA59081@rah.star-gate.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty wrote: > To eliminate duplicate messages you can use MH's slocal or procmail. If you read your mailing lists behind a mail->news gateway, which is IMO about the only way to reasonably handle high traffic mailing lists such as the freebsd-* ones, you also get automatic dupe suppression. The unpleasant side effect is that now shreds of a crossposted thread hang around in both groups. -- Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy@mips.rhein-neckar.de carpe librum: books 'n' reviews To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 9: 0:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C03DE14CCB for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:00:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-046.thuntek.net [207.66.52.46]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id JAA28543; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:56:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37160BF3.BFB29315@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 09:55:31 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Neil Blakey-Milner Cc: Davis , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jim Mock , Rob Garrett Subject: Re: FreeBSD PR References: <199904142351.QAA80238@rah.star-gate.com> <19990415101054.A87661@rucus.ru.ac.za> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think this is _really_ interesting, Neil. I think that we should have a section on our site next to the Users Groups listing for Universities which have an active teaching / proseletyzing / using presence, especially in countries like yours where the vast majority of the people will never in their lifetime be able to afford one copy of MS Word... Kudos to you and your teammates! I've CC'd my webmasters for the new advocacy section of the freebsd.org site. Our goal is to begin racheting up the level of interaction between users, to make the FreeBSD community much more an active community that shares resources and advice on a global scale. The mailing lists we have are excellent for those who use them, what we want to do is to add other mechanisms to enhance the connectivity and the fun. Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > On Wed 1999-04-14 (20:25), Davis wrote: > > I am not certain of a good way to accomplish this, but I think an > > excellent way to start is to aim at college students (in much the way that > > Microsoft is). Currently, many of my peers are completely unaware of > > FreeBSD, aside from some hardcore computer geeks (of course, I do my best > > to make them aware). If people start using FreeBSD during college years > > (perhaps the time of greatest increase in computer exposure for many, > > myself included), they will likely be hooked for life; I should know, I > > think I may be hooked myself. (= > > I was in the lucky position to arrive at the university that I did, > which had a student computer society that provided tons of services > (nice email address, web pages, irc, etc) and I was immediately snapped > up by the process and ended up becoming one of the sysadmin, and in > charge of giving courses. > > I think the system we have here is very good - we have a few clued > people arriving every year, for their first year they hate us and try > and break the system, and then by their second year they're our friends, > we teach them things, and they teach us things. All through the year a > team of people who use computers give courses from WordPerfect and other > applications provided on the Windows systems in the labs, to advanced > subjects, CGI, Apache administration, make, perl, the ports system, etc. > > This way we get our money for providing the courses for the people not > really interested in the Unix side, and the clued people will start to > realize we only give lame courses, and start to go to the ones that > sound interesting, and so on. > > Since the local national Science and Arts festivals are hosted in our > city, and we're the clued computer people in the city (according to the > organizers, and even the Computer Science department), we give courses > on using the Web to designing serious Web pages, and we get to have a > course or two on "Unix, the alternative Operating System" (or something > like that), and get to expound on how much FreeBSD [and Linux] rules > compared to NT, with CDs on sale (for free next year), etc. > > Since Geoff Rehmet got involved with the society just after its > inception, the society and the entire [clued] university student > computer movement is FreeBSD-related, leaving a rich heritage to pass on > as people leave, and new people arrive. (although we despair at leaving > the society in the hands of the "hax0r-kiddies", our current bunch of > friendly second years). > > > Of course, I really do not know specifically how we might accomplish this. > > FreeBSD boot disks for all the comp. sci., math, and physics majors? (just > > kidding) Seriously, though, I think just making FreeBSD known in my > > neighborhood and emphasizing its strong networking abilities would do some > > good. > > We're planning an installathon or two soon, and with our membership fee > of only R35 (roughly 4-6 bottles of 2 litre cokes for international > comparison), we manage to squish in a serious amount of advocacy and > education. We also go behind the university's back and install FreeBSD > servers for departments that want them for web or dial-up, since NT just > doesn't seem to cut it for even them, and security is a huge problem. > > Another advantage we're accumulating is a reputation for being a > FreeBSD-based university, which we try to cultivate, to make sure we > start getting people who are clued to FreeBSD already heading our way, > instead of converting or teaching people. > > Of course, we're also planning on extending this to other universities > in the country, which seem to have poorly run, or more of a hax0r (as > opposed to hacker) culture. (You may see the occasional pipe from > und.ac.za, which is our cultural FreeBSD brother of sorts) > > Neil > -- > Neil Blakey-Milner > nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 10:12:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7430314EB7 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:12:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28496; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:10:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990415110155.045695d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:10:14 -0600 To: crh@outpost.co.nz, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-Reply-To: <199904142345.LAA05238@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> References: <4.2.0.32.19990414114712.00cda740@localhost> <10906.924111753@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:32 AM 4/15/99 +1200, Craig Harding wrote: >kay Brett, name 3 specific examples where Jordan has "undermined and >sabotaged" FreeBSD advocacy efforts by anyone. OK: Look at the article referenced earlier in this thread. In that article, Jordan equivocates about FreeBSD's superiority to Linux (that's one) and asserts that Microsoft should be allowed to take over the desktop (that's two -- and a particularly damaging one as many people will have a visceral reaction to it). He has also, by his own admission, encouraged developers NOT to develop native versions of their applications for FreeBSD but rather to do them for Linux. Three strikes, I'm afraid. >I've said it before and I'll say it again: Linux isn't successful >because of a concerted PR effort by a small organised team. Linux >achieved its profile through the rabid, half-crazed mutterings of >several thousand university students around the world who, as the >young and inexperienced tend to do, firmly believed that the OS they >were running on their own machines was the single greatest, most >reliable, technically advanced operating system in the known >universe, irrespective of hard evidence to the contrary. There's a lot that's good about engendering that type of advocacy. UNIX itself owes its success largely to its introduction into academia early on. Jordan, however, deplores that type of advocacy and says he will, in fact, discourage it. --Brett "For every action there is an equal and opposite government program." --Bob Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 10:24:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 144DC14EB7 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 10:24:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28558; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:22:11 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990415111443.04573890@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:22:08 -0600 To: W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: My effective PR efforts in action In-Reply-To: <199904150250.WAA06053@bellsouth.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:50 PM 4/14/99 -0400, W Gerald Hicks wrote: >Brett, just cool it a bit, eh? I believe the radical fringe might have its >role but you've bent way beyond that to outright meanness. I think that Jordan, and some others on this list, have in fact been the ones who have descended into meanness. He, and one or two other vitriolic posters, essentially told me that my efforts at advocacy were unwelcome, while Jordan at the same time was undermining FreeBSD as mentioned in an earlier message. They also failed to recognize the success of the efforts I DID make at advocacy. Besides starting one user group and morphing a Linux users' group into a UNIX users' group that included FreeBSD, I also provided the information which resulted in the following VERY POSITIVE article: http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/column/0,4712,398025,00.html --Brett Glass "For every action there is an equal and opposite government program." --Bob Wells To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 11:34:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED0F514BD5 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:34:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA61189; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:30:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:30:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Anthony Kimball Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems In-Reply-To: <14102.8184.91918.375800@avalon.east> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Anthony Kimball wrote: > Quoth Daniel C. Sobral on Thu, 15 April: > : > : FreeBSD executes ANSI C code reliably according to spec, as long as > : there is enough memory in the system. If there isn't, FreeBSD > : doesn't run reliably, much less executes any kind of code reliably. > : > I understand this. I concieve the purpose of this thread as being > a clear determination of the best known way to allow correctly > written code to run reliably when, for reasons perhaps out of the > control of the application, memory becomes overcommitted. It might have been that, if on the second line of your original post you didn't claim we were ANSI incompatible. As it was, it sounded much like chicken little yelling the sky was falling. Your position now seems to have changed quite a bit. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@picnic.mat.net | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 12:53:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (unknown [208.149.16.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D94914C35 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:53:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA30571; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:50:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:50:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: chuckr@picnic.mat.net Cc: dcs@newsguy.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <14102.8184.91918.375800@avalon.east> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14102.16644.178732.291963@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth Chuck Robey on Thu, 15 April: : > I understand this. I concieve the purpose of this thread as being : > a clear determination of the best known way to allow correctly : > written code to run reliably when, for reasons perhaps out of the : > control of the application, memory becomes overcommitted. : : It might have been that, if on the second line of your original post you : didn't claim we were ANSI incompatible. As it was, it sounded much like : chicken little yelling the sky was falling. Your position now seems to : have changed quite a bit. I'm glad to be corrected where I err. But we are ANSI incompatible if one cannot configure the system so that malloc failure semantics conform to the C spec. Being able to rely upon ANSI C malloc failure semantics is a contributory factor in being able to run a correctly written application reliably. It is not sufficient, however, as others have noted. In order to respond properly to the practical inadequacy of mere ANSI conformance, the scope of the discussion has expanded. My understanding of the state of play is this: While mmap-backed malloc suffices to provide ANSI C conformant malloc failure semantics, and this can be handled best at the library level, the best proposed solution to the broader practical problem is to provide a kernel-level facility to specify that a fork (and all children, recursively?) are to be backed by a specific file. In my opinion, this is not detectably better (in the sense of being less intrusive to implement) than a kernel facility to reserve swap for a fork (and all children, recursively?). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 13:13:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF767158A5 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:13:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id FAA08433; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 05:11:04 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3716476E.80DF2DBC@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 05:09:18 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: alk@pobox.com Cc: chuckr@picnic.mat.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <14102.8184.91918.375800@avalon.east> <14102.16644.178732.291963@avalon.east> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Kimball wrote: > > I'm glad to be corrected where I err. But we are ANSI incompatible > if one cannot configure the system so that malloc failure semantics > conform to the C spec. Being able to rely upon ANSI C malloc failure > semantics is a contributory factor in being able to run a correctly > written application reliably. It is not sufficient, however, as > others have noted. In order to respond properly to the practical > inadequacy of mere ANSI conformance, the scope of the discussion has > expanded. Ok, here is the error of your ways. You are assuming that malloc(3) will return memory when there is none. This is incorrect. What happens is that processes get killed when the system find itself needing more memory than it has available. There are two ways of preventing that. One is pre-allocate all memory. This is not useful, because the memory available to each process ends up being very small. As an experiment, run X Free with the pre-zero pages flag set. The second way is to set limits to the memory the processes can use, without actually giving up on-demand allocation. FreeBSD supports this. Man login.conf(5). -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Well, Windows works, using a loose definition of 'works'..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 13:26:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA60814DBD for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:26:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by mail.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:14:50 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" , Cc: , Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:24:27 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be877d$f5ddd410$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3716476E.80DF2DBC@newsguy.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm more interested in solving the general overcommit problem than in the malloc-specific overcommit problem. As you note, there are ways for a process to deal with malloc problems. However, the more general copy-on-write problem and demand load problem are not easily solved without kernel help. As I said, my preferred solution would be a system call that caused all of a process' demand load or copy-on-write pages (current and future) to be backed by swap. From that point on, memory failures could only occur at known failure points, such as malloc or mmap. > Ok, here is the error of your ways. You are assuming that malloc(3) > will return memory when there is none. This is incorrect. What > happens is that processes get killed when the system find itself > needing more memory than it has available. Right. But it's a lot better if malloc returns NULL. That way you don't lose vital long-running programs. It's really not a good selling point that an operating system kills off innocent processes when it's low on memory. It would be a lot nicer if it could simply refuse to allow existing ones to expand or start new ones. However, unfortunately, never overcommitting is a lousy solution. > There are two ways of preventing that. One is pre-allocate all > memory. This is not useful, because the memory available to each > process ends up being very small. As an experiment, run X Free with > the pre-zero pages flag set. Right. It makes sense only to pre-allocate for those processes that really need it. Then again, swap is cheap. In some cases, it might really make sense to make all allocations, demand fills, and copy-on-writes backed by swap system-wide. But again, I hardly think that's a good general solution. > The second way is to set limits to the memory the processes can use, > without actually giving up on-demand allocation. FreeBSD supports > this. Man login.conf(5). The problem is, there is no guarantee that I'll be able to use up to my memory limit. So I don't see how this helps. An overcommit can still result in a vital process being summarily terminated. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 13:47:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D424615962 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 13:47:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id FAA10698; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 05:45:11 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37164F6C.52BEB501@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 05:43:24 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <000001be877d$f5ddd410$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > > There are two ways of preventing that. One is pre-allocate all > > memory. This is not useful, because the memory available to each > > process ends up being very small. As an experiment, run X Free with > > the pre-zero pages flag set. > > Right. It makes sense only to pre-allocate for those processes that really > need it. Then again, swap is cheap. In some cases, it might really make > sense to make all allocations, demand fills, and copy-on-writes backed by > swap system-wide. But again, I hardly think that's a good general solution. One could get tired of saying this again and again, but I'm not at that point yet. :-) No, it doesn't make sense. Ok, you pre-allocate for some processes. The memory get filled. Then one of the processes using allocation on demand needs more memory. But there is no free memory, so a process gets killed. You are back where you started. Pre-allocation only works if you do it for all processes. And if you do that... Well, run the experiment I mentioned above. > > The second way is to set limits to the memory the processes can use, > > without actually giving up on-demand allocation. FreeBSD supports > > this. Man login.conf(5). > > The problem is, there is no guarantee that I'll be able to use up to my > memory limit. So I don't see how this helps. An overcommit can still result > in a vital process being summarily terminated. Eh? What are talking about? No garantee? See, you have this process that you wants to eat as much memory as possible. If you are not pre-allocating for all processes, you will have to know which process is that. Knowing that, you set a memory limit that leaves you with enough memory to run the rest of the system. Now, this is a limit you *must* find for any solution you try, *except* pre-allocating everything. If you are not pre-allocating everything, you'll have to know how much memory you can use before processes get killed. For example, suppose one uses the "solution" you mention above. Memory gets filled, and then some other process might need more memory, and something get killed. There is no way around this. If you think there is a way around it, think again. If you still think so, try to explain, in details. It is unavoidable. Now, we know processes will get killed. So, next, you want to be able to tell which processes must not get killed. Well, things will get killed as long as memory is needed. So, you need to be running processes for the express purpose of them getting killed, freeing memory so the system can run without anything getting killed. Surprise, what you did is figure out how much free memory is needed for the system to run without anything getting killed. This is equivalent of figuring out how much memory to limit a process to. If you won't/can't find how much memory each process/user can safely use, your only solution is to pre-allocate everything. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Well, Windows works, using a loose definition of 'works'..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 14:30: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from picnic.mat.net (picnic.mat.net [206.246.122.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB66151AC for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:29:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chuckr@picnic.mat.net) Received: from localhost (chuckr@localhost) by picnic.mat.net (8.9.3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA61715; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:25:15 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:25:15 -0400 (EDT) From: Chuck Robey To: Anthony Kimball Cc: dcs@newsguy.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems In-Reply-To: <14102.16644.178732.291963@avalon.east> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Anthony Kimball wrote: > Quoth Chuck Robey on Thu, 15 April: > > : > I understand this. I concieve the purpose of this thread as being > : > a clear determination of the best known way to allow correctly > : > written code to run reliably when, for reasons perhaps out of the > : > control of the application, memory becomes overcommitted. > : > : It might have been that, if on the second line of your original post you > : didn't claim we were ANSI incompatible. As it was, it sounded much like > : chicken little yelling the sky was falling. Your position now seems to > : have changed quite a bit. > > I'm glad to be corrected where I err. But we are ANSI incompatible No, we are not. Malloc does in fact fail on those conditions. There are additional failures brought on by the OS when some other, possibly unconnected process uses up all your memory, and this is quite thoroughly outside the purview of the ANSI C spec. mi has been told this numerous times, and simply likes to ignore it. The OS simply hunts for the biggest memory hog and kills it. It can't give a signal other than kill, because it' is out of memory, and MUST correct that situation immediately, it can't hunt down the offender (which would be quite difficult) and rely on the offender immediately exiting. It MUST free some memory. This is totally outside the purview of the spec, which we are in compliance with. Sheesh. I'm dropping this thread, if I see one more post from mi where it's obvious he hasn't bothered to read a response, I'll embarrass myself and get mad. What gets me is, the work done to get our memory overcommit working has given us a great, truly great VM situation, and you guys are pretty obviously shooting at it without much understanding. How a hobbyist-built system got so sophisticated amazes me. ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- Chuck Robey | Interests include any kind of voice or data chuckr@picnic.mat.net | communications topic, C programming, and Unix. 213 Lakeside Drive Apt T-1 | Greenbelt, MD 20770 | I run picnic (FreeBSD-current) (301) 220-2114 | and jaunt (Solaris7). ----------------------------+----------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 14:42:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (unknown [208.149.16.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43883151D2 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:42:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA31520; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:36:59 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:36:58 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: chuckr@picnic.mat.net Cc: dcs@newsguy.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <14102.16644.178732.291963@avalon.east> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14102.23330.685207.587287@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth Chuck Robey on Thu, 15 April: : No, we are not. Malloc does in fact fail on those conditions. Again, it seems to be a reasonable disagreement over semantics. To my mind, you haven't allocated memory successfully unless you can use it without processes dying, in this case including your self. To yours, the fact that you might be able to use the memory with no further program action suffices to constitute a successful allocation. No one is denigrating the system. We just disagree about what constitutes a successful allocation of memory. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 14:46:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05681151D2 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:46:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by mail.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:34:48 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:44:24 -0700 Message-ID: <000101be8789$210927b0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <37164F6C.52BEB501@newsguy.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No, it doesn't make sense. Ok, you pre-allocate for some processes. > The memory get filled. Then one of the processes using allocation on > demand needs more memory. But there is no free memory, so a process > gets killed. Huh? What memory? > You are back where you started. Pre-allocation only works if you do > it for all processes. And if you do that... Well, run the experiment > I mentioned above. What the hell are you talking about? If, for the vital process, you always reserve enough swap space to allow it to dirty all its pages, then that one process will never get killed because of overcommitting. > > The problem is, there is no guarantee that I'll be able > to use up to my > > memory limit. So I don't see how this helps. An overcommit can > still result > > in a vital process being summarily terminated. > > Eh? What are talking about? No garantee? > > See, you have this process that you wants to eat as much memory as > possible. If you are not pre-allocating for all processes, you will > have to know which process is that. Knowing that, you set a memory > limit that leaves you with enough memory to run the rest of the > system. I see, so to make X work, you have to fix everything else? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Besides, in a multi-user environment, resource limits don't work that way. To ensure that a vital process doesn't get killed, you'd have to make everyone else's memory limits way too low to be usable. > Now, this is a limit you *must* find for any solution you try, > *except* pre-allocating everything. If you are not pre-allocating > everything, you'll have to know how much memory you can use before > processes get killed. No. You reserve swap for the vital process. > For example, suppose one uses the "solution" you mention above. > Memory gets filled, and then some other process might need more > memory, and something get killed. There is no way around this. If > you think there is a way around it, think again. If you still think > so, try to explain, in details. It is unavoidable. I already did. You reserve enough swap to allow the vital process to dirty all its pages. It really is that simple. > Now, we know processes will get killed. So, next, you want to be > able to tell which processes must not get killed. Well, things will > get killed as long as memory is needed. So, you need to be running > processes for the express purpose of them getting killed, freeing > memory so the system can run without anything getting killed. > > Surprise, what you did is figure out how much free memory is needed > for the system to run without anything getting killed. This is > equivalent of figuring out how much memory to limit a process to. > > If you won't/can't find how much memory each process/user can safely > use, your only solution is to pre-allocate everything. I'm sorry, I don't understand at all. Please explain why reserving enough swap to allow the vital process to dirty all its pages is not a sufficient solution. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 14:49:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B879D14E80 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:49:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id GAA15162; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 06:46:52 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37165DE2.53AEA557@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 06:45:06 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: alk@pobox.com Cc: chuckr@picnic.mat.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <14102.16644.178732.291963@avalon.east> <14102.23330.685207.587287@avalon.east> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anthony Kimball wrote: > > Quoth Chuck Robey on Thu, 15 April: > : No, we are not. Malloc does in fact fail on those conditions. > > Again, it seems to be a reasonable disagreement over semantics. To my > mind, you haven't allocated memory successfully unless you can use it > without processes dying, in this case including your self. To yours, > the fact that you might be able to use the memory with no further > program action suffices to constitute a successful allocation. > > No one is denigrating the system. We just disagree about what > constitutes a successful allocation of memory. Err, not "we". You can go disagree with the ANSI standard. We, we'll stand by it. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Well, Windows works, using a loose definition of 'works'..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 15: 7:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (mail2.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DD8F1506C for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:07:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-66-15.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.66.15]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA04320; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:04:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA73783; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:05:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199904152205.SAA73783@bellsouth.net> To: Chuck Robey Cc: Anthony Kimball , dcs@newsguy.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: swap-related problems In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 1999 17:25:15 EDT." Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:05:03 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > How a hobbyist-built system got so sophisticated amazes me. Oh that's easy; It was built by professionals posing as passionate hobbyists. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 15:20:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79E01506C for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:20:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id HAA17580; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:16:30 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <371664D4.5337858C@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 07:14:44 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <000101be8789$210927b0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > What the hell are you talking about? I see you missed this... > If, for the vital process, you always reserve enough swap space to allow it > to dirty all its pages, then that one process will never get killed because > of overcommitting. ... > No. You reserve swap for the vital process. ... > I already did. You reserve enough swap to allow the vital process to dirty > all its pages. It really is that simple. ... > I'm sorry, I don't understand at all. Please explain why reserving enough > swap to allow the vital process to dirty all its pages is not a sufficient > solution. Main reason: if that process is the one filling most memory, that process is the one that will get killed. The process which gets killed *IS NOT* the one that tries to get memory when the memory is already full. Unless it happens to be the biggest one. Now, from the parts of the message I cut out of the quote, I infer you don't get the other aspects of this problem, so I'll try to explain them again. First, all this discussion centers on a program P being able to allocate all available memory. If a program doesn't try to do that, it will never run into a malloc(3) returning NULL, pre-allocate or not. Are we agreed on this? Second, run program P, using pre-allocation. At some point in the execution of P, all memory will allocated to it, and there will be no more free memory available. Correct? Ok, let's assume that program P will *not* get killed under any circunstances. That is not true, but let's suppose we changed FreeBSD to make it so. Well, we have a lot of programs running, none of them using pre-allocation. Theoretically, it would be possible that none of them ever demanded any more memory. Please, convince yourself that this is very unlikely. We can safely assume that a program is bound to request memory it hasn't used before. At the very least, there are all sorts of processes getting spawned automatically to do all sorts of things. There are data being read and written to disk, there are networks packets being received and transmitted. There are cron jobs running. There is syslogd. Etc. So, something needs to get killed. Is that something essential to you? Is syslogd essential? inetd? Maybe the terminal login asking for password on your console, or your shell? Well, protect all essential processes from getting killed. So, what we have now? Non-essential processes, which can get killed. Kill all of them. The remaining memory may or may not be enough. Maybe P was run in a particular low memory use situation, and there simply isn't enough space to run all essential processes. Let's make this easy, though. Assume that killing the non-essential processes gives you _at least_ the exact amount of memory you need to be able to run without any essential process getting killed. Let's call these non-essential processes N. Is this a sufficient solution? Yes. But there is a catch. You'll notice that you *need* to run N before running P. If N is not running at the time you run P, then you'll end up killing essential processes. If you can't see why, go back to the paragraph were I defined N, and think of possible alternate scenarios, and see where they got you. Well, you should realize then that you need to discover a set of processes N, which doesn't do anything essential to you, which you must run before running P. This is the same thing as defining a maximum size for P, only harder. Got it now? -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Well, Windows works, using a loose definition of 'works'..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 15:36:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stratos.net (pm3-12-21.stratos.net [207.86.134.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C581714D30 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:36:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) Received: (from drifter@localhost) by stratos.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id SAA60872; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:37:49 GMT (envelope-from drifter) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:37:49 +0000 From: Rob To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: (removed by request) Message-ID: <19990415183749.A60815@stratos.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990414132231.009b6f10@localhost> <199904150304.XAA06097@bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199904150304.XAA06097@bellsouth.net>; from W Gerald Hicks on Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 11:04:16PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 14, 1999 at 11:04:16PM -0400, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > RAID would be nice, but how about support for older Adaptec controllers? > > I've watched several people go to Linux in the past WEEK because FreeBSD > > has dropped support for this perfectly good older hardware. > > I suppose that you are referring to the AIC6360 controllers? They > were an unfortunate casualty of the CAM progress and there is some > ongoing work towards getting them revived. The older driver seems > to have a few problems anyway, so the loss doesn't seem that great > to me (and I *really* need that driver). > > No way _I'm_ switching to Linux because of this relatively minor > inconvenience. We'll just use 2.2.8-STABLE on those boxes for > now -- *shrug* Maybe more than a "minor" inconvenience. I have had the same problem (a perfectly good AHA1520B) and I wanted to upgrade to 3.1 to keep up with the latest -RELEASE. Since FreeBSD is, well free, I kept my whining to a minimum. But I did seriously consider switching to Linux myself, but fortunately I got a hold of a 3.1 GB IDE hard disk that I use for 3.1. I just can't access my 2.1 GB SCSI hard drive, ZIP drive, or tape with 3.1. I haven't a chance in hell in understanding enough about hardware or programming to try to write my own driver. In any case, like I said, it is free so I'm not complaining. I just don't personally care for the self-righteous "This hardware SUX, so screw it!" (and damn the fact that others invested money into it) attitude that I sometimes see from some people. > > I've been trying to convince a customer to pay Justin for the work > to implement a new driver. Since they have a vested interest in the > matter, this might happen. Those controllers are used extensively > in the embedded STD-32 world. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 15:44:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE39215000 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:44:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by mail.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:32:32 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 15:42:08 -0700 Message-ID: <000201be8791$31c7add0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <371664D4.5337858C@newsguy.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > First, all this discussion centers on a program P being able to > allocate all available memory. If a program doesn't try to do that, > it will never run into a malloc(3) returning NULL, pre-allocate or > not. Are we agreed on this? What does malloc returning NULL have to do with anything? *sigh* We're talking about a well-behaved program, P, that gets killed because of overcommitting caused by some combination of its behavior and the behavior of other processes. > Second, run program P, using pre-allocation. At some point in the > execution of P, all memory will allocated to it, and there will be > no more free memory available. Correct? No. It's possible that P will allocate all the memory it needs at startup, and it will be a very small amount. What do you mean by "all memory will allocated to it"? > Ok, let's assume that program P will *not* get killed under any > circunstances. That is not true, but let's suppose we changed > FreeBSD to make it so. > > Well, we have a lot of programs running, none of them using > pre-allocation. Theoretically, it would be possible that none of > them ever demanded any more memory. Please, convince yourself that > this is very unlikely. > > We can safely assume that a program is bound to request memory it > hasn't used before. At the very least, there are all sorts of > processes getting spawned automatically to do all sorts of things. > There are data being read and written to disk, there are networks > packets being received and transmitted. There are cron jobs running. > There is syslogd. Etc. > > So, something needs to get killed. Is that something essential to > you? Is syslogd essential? inetd? Maybe the terminal login asking > for password on your console, or your shell? Well, protect all > essential processes from getting killed. It is false that something needs to get killed. It's entirely possible that had the operating system anticipated this situation and handled it more smoothly, say by failing to fork or failing to malloc, other well-behaved programs would have reduced their memory load. The idea is to make it possible for well behaved programs to avoid this situation by anticipating it earlier, the moment the operating system began to overcommit. For example, one of the programs written by the company I work for has an internal memory tracker. We pre-allocate a few megabytes of memory to use as an emergency pool. If the operating system returns NULL when we call malloc, we defer memory-intensive tasks for later. In extreme cases, we may refuse to accept new incoming connections. Because of that, we can avoid running into the situation where something needs to be killed. The problem is, if the operating system incorrectly assumes that every malloc or fork is vital, it sets itself up for a situation later where a copy-on-write will result in a process needing to be killed. This need is solely the result of the operating system causing mallocs and forks to succeed in the past where their failure may not have been fatal to anything. You are assuming that processes can do better than the kernel on a failed allocation. This is so obviously false that I can't believe that you are even advancing it. > So, what we have now? Non-essential processes, which can get killed. > Kill all of them. The remaining memory may or may not be enough. > Maybe P was run in a particular low memory use situation, and there > simply isn't enough space to run all essential processes. Let's make > this easy, though. Assume that killing the non-essential processes > gives you _at least_ the exact amount of memory you need to be able > to run without any essential process getting killed. Let's call > these non-essential processes N. > > Is this a sufficient solution? Yes. But there is a catch. > > You'll notice that you *need* to run N before running P. If N is not > running at the time you run P, then you'll end up killing essential > processes. If you can't see why, go back to the paragraph were I > defined N, and think of possible alternate scenarios, and see where > they got you. > > Well, you should realize then that you need to discover a set of > processes N, which doesn't do anything essential to you, which you > must run before running P. This is the same thing as defining a > maximum size for P, only harder. > > Got it now? No. A process can handle a failed malloc or fork by doing something much less drastic than death. The kernel cannot. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 16:55:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37D7C14A2F for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 16:55:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id IAA25941; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:51:41 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37167B00.3B40F1D7@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:49:20 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <000201be8791$31c7add0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > > First, all this discussion centers on a program P being able to > > allocate all available memory. If a program doesn't try to do that, > > it will never run into a malloc(3) returning NULL, pre-allocate or > > not. Are we agreed on this? > > What does malloc returning NULL have to do with anything? *sigh* That would be the failed malloc(). It just happen to be the origin and, as far as I knew, the subject of this thread. If it changed along the way, sorry, I missed it. > We're talking about a well-behaved program, P, that gets killed because of > overcommitting caused by some combination of its behavior and the behavior > of other processes. Sure, and then you say: ... > an emergency pool. If the operating system returns NULL when we call malloc, > we defer memory-intensive tasks for later. In extreme cases, we may refuse ... and > No. A process can handle a failed malloc or fork by doing something much > less drastic than death. The kernel cannot. So, are we talking about malloc() returning NULL or not? If we are not setting a limit to a process' size, and a malloc fails, then the memory will be full. Thus, what I said in "first". And let me repeat here, if this well behaved program does not allocate all memory, it stands to reason that no malloc it tried could have failed. If no malloc is failing, it is moot what the program could do if it did fail. > > Second, run program P, using pre-allocation. At some point in the > > execution of P, all memory will allocated to it, and there will be > > no more free memory available. Correct? > > No. It's possible that P will allocate all the memory it needs at startup, > and it will be a very small amount. What do you mean by "all memory will > allocated to it"? If it allocates a small amount of memory, the memory won't get full, and thus no process will get killed. Unless you have something else behaving badly. If you have something else behaving badly, limit the datasize of *that*. If you don't want to limit the datasize of that, then call that P, and go back to "first". As an aside, if P does not expand to fill all memory, but you are still facing a situation where processes get killed because of overcommit, it is simply that you don't have enough memory to run what you are trying to run. > It is false that something needs to get killed. It's entirely possible that > had the operating system anticipated this situation and handled it more > smoothly, say by failing to fork or failing to malloc, other well-behaved > programs would have reduced their memory load. > > The idea is to make it possible for well behaved programs to avoid this > situation by anticipating it earlier, the moment the operating system began > to overcommit. Err, excuse me? Let's use a "numeric example", as we used to ask our algebra professor (only to have it say "Given three numbers, a, b and c, ..." :). We have 64 Mb of memory. We start running processes. At some point, they will try to allocate more than 64 Mb of memory. If at this point we make the malloc calls fail, we are pre-allocating everything. This doesn't work because your applications get to use a lot less memory than they would otherwise. A few very specialized systems have use for that. Unix is not among these systems, so pre-allocating systems are not relevant to this discussion. Thus, we let the applications allocate more than 64 Mb of memory before making mallocs fail. This is overcommitting. At this point it is theoretically possible that all memory will get touched, causing a process to die. In practice, that is unlikely. Ok, so let the applications grow some more. At some point the system will get dangerously close to actually facing a memory starvation situation. Before that happens, the system will start failing mallocs, so the situation does not worsen. Of course, the system must be smart enough to let enough free memory so that normal dirtying of pages already allocated won't cause the memory starvation, even without any new mallocs. It is simple to decide what point is that. When you finish this as your Ph.D. thesis, please send us a reference to your algorithm. > For example, one of the programs written by the company I work for has an > internal memory tracker. We pre-allocate a few megabytes of memory to use as > an emergency pool. If the operating system returns NULL when we call malloc, > we defer memory-intensive tasks for later. In extreme cases, we may refuse > to accept new incoming connections. Because of that, we can avoid running > into the situation where something needs to be killed. If the operating system returns NULL, it is either using the algorithm you'll describe in your Ph.D. thesis, or the memory is exhausted. If the later, some other process, which is not using pre-allocated memory, might dirty a page causing something to get killed. > The problem is, if the operating system incorrectly assumes that every > malloc or fork is vital, it sets itself up for a situation later where a > copy-on-write will result in a process needing to be killed. This need is > solely the result of the operating system causing mallocs and forks to > succeed in the past where their failure may not have been fatal to anything. I agree. I eagerly await to read your thesis on how an OS can decide when to stop. > You are assuming that processes can do better than the kernel on a failed > allocation. This is so obviously false that I can't believe that you are > even advancing it. Much on the contrary. I'm assuming the kernel cannot arbitrarily choose something other than memory full condition to fail on a malloc(), because it doesn't know anything about what the process needs or not. > No. A process can handle a failed malloc or fork by doing something much > less drastic than death. The kernel cannot. Well... ok, what would you have the kernel do? Please describe the entire scenario, not just one process. How much real memory exists? How much got allocated? When did the mallocs start to fail? How was each process memory allocated (pre-allocated or on-demand)? -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Well, Windows works, using a loose definition of 'works'..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 19: 0: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDFC4152AF for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 18:58:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14086; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:24:33 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990415110155.045695d0@localhost> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:29:23 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 15-Apr-99 Brett Glass wrote: > OK: Look at the article referenced earlier in this thread. In that > article, Jordan equivocates about FreeBSD's superiority to Linux > (that's one) and asserts that Microsoft should be allowed to take > over the desktop (that's two -- and a particularly damaging one > as many people will have a visceral reaction to it). He has also, > by his own admission, encouraged developers NOT to develop native > versions of their applications for FreeBSD but rather to do them > for Linux. Three strikes, I'm afraid. So you want to tell people who develop software to deliberatly reduce their userbase when a) its not truly necessary because our Linux emulation is 'pretty good', and b) we have no leverage to be demanging they do it anyway! Get a grip! As for the desktop, quite patently FreeBSD's approach is *not* desktop orriented, otherwise we would have more tools a la Red Hat for configuring our systems, but since we don't the inference is that our developers don't want that. (and since our developers are also our users..) > There's a lot that's good about engendering that type of advocacy. > UNIX itself owes its success largely to its introduction into > academia early on. > > Jordan, however, deplores that type of advocacy and says he will, > in fact, discourage it. Ahh, no, I doubt that, I don't think Jordan (yeesh, I'd be getting sick of having words put in my mouth by now if I where him 8-) is going to discourage the installation of FreeBSD in acadaemia.. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 19: 2:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2EA214D24 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:02:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from your-name (TC2-dial-67-215.oldslip.inch.com [207.240.215.67]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.1a/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA09975 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:57:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904160157.VAA09975@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:01:47 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Smart reseller article on FreeBSD ( was My effective PR efforts in action) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:22:08 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >http://www.zdnet.com/sr/stories/column/0,4712,398025,00.html Just saw this today and was going to put the URL here. It seems Smart Reseller may be a good publication to try to keep well informed (i.e. press releases) so they can do more mentions of FreeBSD. All in all Smart Reseller usually has good articles. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 19: 7:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from youknow.youwant.to (youknow.youwant.to [209.133.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D4414D24 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:07:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever (whenever.youwant.to [209.133.29.2]) by youknow.youwant.to (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA31346; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:05:20 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:05:19 -0700 Message-ID: <001101be87ad$94130900$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <37167B00.3B40F1D7@newsguy.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > First, all this discussion centers on a program P being able to > > > allocate all available memory. If a program doesn't try to do that, > > > it will never run into a malloc(3) returning NULL, pre-allocate or > > > not. Are we agreed on this? > > > > What does malloc returning NULL have to do with anything? *sigh* > > That would be the failed malloc(). It just happen to be the origin > and, as far as I knew, the subject of this thread. If it changed > along the way, sorry, I missed it. The idea is to make malloc return NULL (or fork) when the alternative would be to overcommit. So it has to do with malloc returning NULL _before_ the operating system runs into a serious overcommit situation. > > We're talking about a well-behaved program, P, that > gets killed because of > > overcommitting caused by some combination of its behavior and > the behavior > > of other processes. > > Sure, and then you say: > > ... > > an emergency pool. If the operating system returns NULL when we > call malloc, > > we defer memory-intensive tasks for later. In extreme cases, we > may refuse > ... > > and > > > No. A process can handle a failed malloc or fork by > doing something much > > less drastic than death. The kernel cannot. > > So, are we talking about malloc() returning NULL or not? We are talking about forcing malloc to return NULL. Not about what to do when/if malloc returns NULL. > If we are not setting a limit to a process' size, and a malloc > fails, then the memory will be full. Thus, what I said in "first". > > And let me repeat here, if this well behaved program does not > allocate all memory, it stands to reason that no malloc it tried > could have failed. If no malloc is failing, it is moot what the > program could do if it did fail. Correct. The idea is not to fail malloc but to prevent an overcommit situation from killing the process. The beauty of this setup is it can work even if no malloc ever fails. > > > Second, run program P, using pre-allocation. At some point in the > > > execution of P, all memory will allocated to it, and there will be > > > no more free memory available. Correct? > > > > No. It's possible that P will allocate all the memory > it needs at startup, > > and it will be a very small amount. What do you mean by "all memory will > > allocated to it"? > > If it allocates a small amount of memory, the memory won't get full, > and thus no process will get killed. Unless you have something else > behaving badly. If you have something else behaving badly, limit the > datasize of *that*. If you don't want to limit the datasize of that, > then call that P, and go back to "first". The problem is, you can't solve a problem in X by fixing the entire rest of the world. Not only that, but there is no sane algorithm for doing so. Suppose you have 64Mb of real memory, 512Mb of swap, and 2,500 users. You tell me what you limit them to. > As an aside, if P does not expand to fill all memory, but you are > still facing a situation where processes get killed because of > overcommit, it is simply that you don't have enough memory to run > what you are trying to run. No, it's simply that the operating system allowed a dangerous situation it could have avoided. > > It is false that something needs to get killed. It's > entirely possible that > > had the operating system anticipated this situation and handled it more > > smoothly, say by failing to fork or failing to malloc, other > well-behaved > > programs would have reduced their memory load. > > > > The idea is to make it possible for well behaved > programs to avoid this > > situation by anticipating it earlier, the moment the operating > system began > > to overcommit. > > Err, excuse me? Let's use a "numeric example", as we used to ask our > algebra professor (only to have it say "Given three numbers, a, b > and c, ..." :). > > We have 64 Mb of memory. We start running processes. At some point, > they will try to allocate more than 64 Mb of memory. Umm, are you assuming no swap? Without swap this whole thing doesn't work. Let's assume 512Mb of swap. Okay, so we try to allocate more than 64Mb of memory. > If at this point we make the malloc calls fail, we are > pre-allocating everything. This doesn't work because your > applications get to use a lot less memory than they would otherwise. > A few very specialized systems have use for that. Unix is not among > these systems, so pre-allocating systems are not relevant to this > discussion. Umm, we don't need to make mallocs fail. We can always swap dirty pages. So we're fine. > Thus, we let the applications allocate more than 64 Mb of memory > before making mallocs fail. This is overcommitting. At this point it > is theoretically possible that all memory will get touched, causing > a process to die. In practice, that is unlikely. > > Ok, so let the applications grow some more. At some point the system > will get dangerously close to actually facing a memory starvation > situation. Before that happens, the system will start failing > mallocs, so the situation does not worsen. Of course, the system > must be smart enough to let enough free memory so that normal > dirtying of pages already allocated won't cause the memory > starvation, even without any new mallocs. Exactly. > It is simple to decide what point is that. When you finish this as > your Ph.D. thesis, please send us a reference to your algorithm. The point is simple -- as soon as you have not enough swap to back all shared, copy on write pages. As an optimization, you can make it so that only 'critical' processes are backed by swap. It's up to the user to determine which process are critical. > > For example, one of the programs written by the company > I work for has an > > internal memory tracker. We pre-allocate a few megabytes of > memory to use as > > an emergency pool. If the operating system returns NULL when we > call malloc, > > we defer memory-intensive tasks for later. In extreme cases, we > may refuse > > to accept new incoming connections. Because of that, we can > avoid running > > into the situation where something needs to be killed. > > If the operating system returns NULL, it is either using the > algorithm you'll describe in your Ph.D. thesis, or the memory is > exhausted. If the later, some other process, which is not using > pre-allocated memory, might dirty a page causing something to get > killed. Right, some other process might dirty a page, but that shouldn't cause my well-behaved process to get killed. My process would prefer to have its malloc fail. In fact, if my malloc fails, I can even un-mmap some non-critical stuff (shrinking caches), saving the operating system from having to kill _anything_. All the operating system would have to do is refuse my malloc or fork if it doesn't have enough swap for that process to dirty every page. That's when you are overcommitted. > > The problem is, if the operating system incorrectly > assumes that every > > malloc or fork is vital, it sets itself up for a situation later where a > > copy-on-write will result in a process needing to be killed. > This need is > > solely the result of the operating system causing mallocs and forks to > > succeed in the past where their failure may not have been fatal > to anything. > > I agree. I eagerly await to read your thesis on how an OS can decide > when to stop. When it hasn't enough swap to back all 'vital' process' copy-on-write or fill-on-demand pages. The definition of vital is up to the implementation. 'owned by root' would be one definition. 'That successfully executed a certain system call' would be another. > > You are assuming that processes can do better than the > kernel on a failed > > allocation. This is so obviously false that I can't believe that you are > > even advancing it. > > Much on the contrary. I'm assuming the kernel cannot arbitrarily > choose something other than memory full condition to fail on a > malloc(), because it doesn't know anything about what the process > needs or not. That's an absolutely retarded assumption, and certainly not the assumption that many UNIXes use. > > No. A process can handle a failed malloc or fork by > doing something much > > less drastic than death. The kernel cannot. > > Well... ok, what would you have the kernel do? Please describe the > entire scenario, not just one process. How much real memory exists? > How much got allocated? When did the mallocs start to fail? How was > each process memory allocated (pre-allocated or on-demand). For the 400th time, the mallocs start to fail in 'critical' processes as soon as the kernel doesn't have enough physical memory plus swap to back all their allocations. The tradeoff is as follows: the process agrees not to take as much memory as the operating system might be willing to allocate to it and in exchange, the operating system agrees not to kill off the process due to memory conditions beyond that process' control. This gives the operating system the benefit of failing mallocs early and perhaps preventing it from having to kill off processes at all. This gives the vital process the benefit of not being killed off due to overcommitment -- the idea is to accept fewer resources in exchange for those resources being guaranteed. If the process is smart enough to do something sensible when malloc fails, such as return non-critical memory to the operating system, everybody wins. If it's not, nobody loses, the process simply gets less memory than it would otherwise want. Odds are, if it's well behaved, it won't be the one the kernel would have killed off anyway. Are you deliberately being dense? Or do you have some weird hidden agenda? DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 19: 9:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 069B414D24 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:09:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA03554; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:07:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990415195943.045f9100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:07:03 -0600 To: "Daniel O'Connor" From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990415110155.045695d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:29 AM 4/16/99 +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: >So you want to tell people who develop software to deliberatly reduce their >userbase Sounds like you're pretty down on FreeBSD yourself. If you honestly going to go around saying that targeting FreeBSD with a native port REDUCES one's user base, then you are, in fact, disparaging FreeBSD and in fact doing it a great deal of damage. It's statements such as this one that are rapidly killing FreeBSD's chances of ever getting near the mainstream. >when a) its not truly necessary because our Linux emulation is 'pretty >good', "Pretty good" is not sufficient. The VENDOR must test applications for compatibility, support them on the platform, and optimize them for efficient performance. Otherwise, why use FreeBSD at all? Users will go where the apps are. What's more, it'll be harder and harder to emulate Linux as it grows more complex. Emulation of another platform is a bad strategy and a losing battle. >and b) we have no leverage to be demanging they do it anyway! "Demand," no. Advocate, yes. That's what advocacy is about. >As for the desktop, quite patently FreeBSD's approach is *not* desktop >orriented, otherwise we would have more tools a la Red Hat for configuring our >systems, There's no reason why such tools could not be developed. They should be. >Ahh, no, I doubt that, I don't think Jordan (yeesh, I'd be getting sick of >having words put in my mouth by now if I where him 8-) is going to discourage >the installation of FreeBSD in acadaemia.. You obviously didn't read or understand the original message. The type of advocacy to which I was referring was gung-ho advocacy by students who had cut their teeth on the OS. Jordan is opposed to any sort of passionate advocacy, period. --Brett Glass "You're not just e-mailing her, you're e-mailing anyone she's ever e-mailed." -- Dayton Daily News Cartoonist Mike Peters on the "Melissa virus" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 19:16:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2BCF14E92 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:16:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA20973; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:29:23 +0930." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:12:14 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> There's a lot that's good about engendering that type of advocacy. >> UNIX itself owes its success largely to its introduction into >> academia early on. >> >> Jordan, however, deplores that type of advocacy and says he will, >> in fact, discourage it. > >Ahh, no, I doubt that, I don't think Jordan (yeesh, I'd be getting sick of >having words put in my mouth by now if I where him 8-) is going to discourage >the installation of FreeBSD in acadaemia.. Jordan (via WC CDROM) has given thousands of FreeBSD CDROMs to academia, and many of us have worked hard to get FreeBSD into the coursework at various universities. It's really offensive to read accusations of complacency (or worse) about what we've done in this area. I can't help but wonder if Brett (and others) have any idea what goes on behind the scenes, especially when it comes to Jordan's FreeBSD promotion efforts. Based on what I've been reading the last couple of days, it's clear that there is a tremendous under-appreciation or total ignorance about it. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 19:22:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D945C15046 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:22:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14299; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:50:00 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990415195943.045f9100@localhost> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:54:50 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Brett Glass Subject: RE: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-Apr-99 Brett Glass wrote: > >So you want to tell people who develop software to deliberatly reduce their > >userbase > Sounds like you're pretty down on FreeBSD yourself. If you honestly > going to go around saying that targeting FreeBSD with a native port > REDUCES one's user base, then you are, in fact, disparaging FreeBSD > and in fact doing it a great deal of damage. It's statements such > as this one that are rapidly killing FreeBSD's chances of ever getting > near the mainstream. Yeah, sure, try not to put thoughts into my mind next time.. A company is there to make money, so they will try to maximise their userbase, telling them to make a Linux port is a pragmatic solution the problem. (That problem being getting ANY software for your non-MS OS, let alone a native port). > >when a) its not truly necessary because our Linux emulation is 'pretty > >good', > "Pretty good" is not sufficient. The VENDOR must test applications for > compatibility, support them on the platform, and optimize them for > efficient performance. Otherwise, why use FreeBSD at all? Users will > go where the apps are. How about you meet them half way hmm? They have limited resources too you know. The 'it must all be my way' attitude makes its very hard for people to see your point because its so confrontational. > What's more, it'll be harder and harder to emulate Linux as it grows more > complex. Emulation of another platform is a bad strategy and a losing > battle. That may be so, but its more likely for us to get better emulation than for a company to dive right into the deep end and make a port for ANOTHER free OS when they're only getting their toes wet. > >and b) we have no leverage to be demanging they do it anyway! > "Demand," no. Advocate, yes. That's what advocacy is about. Sure, but it comes down to if they have the resources to make the port. If they don't then they just won't do it, not matter HOW often you ask them. > There's no reason why such tools could not be developed. They should be. Well, time and man power are 2 reasons I can think of. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 19:37: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CB4C14DE9 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:37:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA87855; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:33:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904160233.TAA87855@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: dg@root.com Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:12:14 PDT." <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:33:35 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > efforts. Based on what I've been reading the last couple of days, it's clear > that there is a tremendous under-appreciation or total ignorance about it. > It is NOT under-appreciation rather ignorance . Amancio -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 19:46:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lcremeans.erols.com (lcremeans.erols.com [216.164.87.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F423B14DE9 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 19:45:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@lcremeans.erols.com) Received: (from lee@localhost) by lcremeans.erols.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id WAA99894; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:43:08 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990415224308.A99868@erols.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:43:08 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: dg@root.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) References: <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 07:12:14PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE Organization: My room? Are you crazy? :) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 07:12:14PM -0700, David Greenman wrote: > Jordan (via WC CDROM) has given thousands of FreeBSD CDROMs to academia, > and many of us have worked hard to get FreeBSD into the coursework at > various universities. It's really offensive to read accusations of complacency > (or worse) about what we've done in this area. > I can't help but wonder if Brett (and others) have any idea what goes > on behind the scenes, especially when it comes to Jordan's FreeBSD promotion > efforts. Based on what I've been reading the last couple of days, it's clear > that there is a tremendous under-appreciation or total ignorance about it. All Brett sees is "Linux is beating us. I FSCKING HATE LINUX. Somethign Needs To Be Done." He's doing the whole "beatings will continue until morale improves" negative-reinforcement thing, and by this, he's spreading FUD and apathy _himself_. Not everyone wants to see a raving zealot screaming "The GPL sucks! Linux is lame! The End Is Near!"; the public, in general, tend to write such people off as insane. As for FreeBSD in academia, well, my using FreeBSD for almost 4 years, and reading and posting to the lists, is a direct result of that. I first found out about FreeBSD in mid-1995, when I was preparing to enter the Computer Science curriculum at Virginia Tech. That was back in the 2.0.5 days; FreeBSD was good enough even then to get VT to switch from DECstations running Digital OSF/1 and Ultrix as personal workstations. For that, at least, I figure some thanks are due; FreeBSD saved me from having to use Windows 95 on this machine, and taught me a lot that even my classes didn't do. -lee -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | | lcremeans@erols.com | http://wakky.dyndns.org/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 20: 7:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE6314DEB for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:07:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA04146; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:04:37 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990415205608.00c78d10@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:04:25 -0600 To: Lee Cremeans , dg@root.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990415224308.A99868@erols.com> References: <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:43 PM 4/15/99 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: >All Brett sees is "Linux is beating us. I FSCKING HATE LINUX. Somethign >Needs To Be Done." Bull. Perhaps YOU are full of irrational hatred (and therefore project it), but I am not. I see FreeBSD's continued failure to emerge into the limelight, in contrast with Linux's runaway success, as the result of serious problems in public relations, promotion, and advocacy. In particular, Jordan Hubbard's refusal to acknowledge his own shortcomings as a PR person, as well as WHAT WORKS, are to blame. Linux's success and FreeBSD's failure could have devastating long-term consequences in the computing world due to the promulgation of the GPL and Richard Stallman's destructive agenda. Thus, Jordan's actions stand to harm not only FreeBSD but the industry at large. --Brett Glass "You're not just e-mailing her, you're e-mailing anyone she's ever e-mailed." -- Dayton Daily News Cartoonist Mike Peters on the "Melissa virus" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 20:17:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1C8014DEB for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:17:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip107.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.107]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BC2B3709D; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:15:09 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA08569; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:15:28 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:15:27 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Brett Glass Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Message-ID: <19990415221527.I3986@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <4.2.0.32.19990415110155.045695d0@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990415195943.045f9100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990415195943.045f9100@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 08:07:03PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 15, 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >As for the desktop, quite patently FreeBSD's approach is *not* desktop > >orriented, otherwise we would have more tools a la Red Hat for configuring our > >systems, > > There's no reason why such tools could not be developed. They should be. The reason for the lack of these tools was explained in the sentence you quoted. "quote patently, FreeBSD's approach is *not* desktop oriented," -- this seems to explain it well. > > --Brett Glass > > > "You're not just e-mailing her, you're e-mailing anyone she's ever > e-mailed." > > -- Dayton Daily News Cartoonist Mike Peters on the "Melissa virus" -- Chris Costello One picture is worth 128K words. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 20:28:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from woodstock.monkey.net (mercury-1-177.mdm.mkt.execpc.com [169.207.86.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3ABB814F30 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:28:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamilton@pobox.com) Received: from pobox.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by woodstock.monkey.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90D58155; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:25:53 -0500 (CDT) To: Brett Glass Cc: Lee Cremeans , dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:04:25 MDT." <4.2.0.32.19990415205608.00c78d10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:25:53 -0500 From: Jon Hamilton Message-Id: <19990416032553.90D58155@woodstock.monkey.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <4.2.0.32.19990415205608.00c78d10@localhost>, Brett Glass wrote: } At 10:43 PM 4/15/99 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: } } >All Brett sees is "Linux is beating us. I FSCKING HATE LINUX. Somethign } >Needs To Be Done." } } Bull. Perhaps YOU are full of irrational hatred (and therefore project it), } but I am not. I think you do have some valid concerns regarding the GPL in general, but I continue to argue that your method of advocacy via kicking people in the crotch is self-defeating. If you've got rational arguments to make, then make them in a calm, reasonable manner; you'll convince lots more people that way. Behaving the way you have on the lists only serves to alienate people and draws attention away from your arguments, making the whole argument one based upon personalities rather than reasoning. This thread is just one example of exactly that. } I see FreeBSD's continued failure to emerge into the limelight, in } contrast with Linux's runaway success, as the result of serious problems } in public relations, promotion, and advocacy. In particular, Jordan } Hubbard's refusal to acknowledge his own shortcomings as a PR person, } as well as WHAT WORKS, are to blame. Others have argued that the rate of growth for both is roughly similar, and that most of the difference is attributable to Linux getting more or less a head start while the various *BSDs were tied up in legal limbo during and after the USL lawsuit. I think there's merit in that claim; whether it explains 100% of the difference I don't know. I don't think that FreeBSD has to take over the world, or even beat out Linux for market share, in order to be successful. } Linux's success and FreeBSD's failure could have devastating long-term } consequences in the computing world due to the promulgation of the GPL } and Richard Stallman's destructive agenda. Thus, Jordan's actions stand } to harm not only FreeBSD but the industry at large. Yeah, yeah. ``Death of FreeBSD, film at 11'' and all that. -- Jon Hamilton hamilton@pobox.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 20:35:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A53714F30 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:35:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA21257; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199904160331.UAA21257@implode.root.com> To: Brett Glass Cc: Lee Cremeans , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:04:25 MDT." <4.2.0.32.19990415205608.00c78d10@localhost> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:31:22 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >At 10:43 PM 4/15/99 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > >>All Brett sees is "Linux is beating us. I FSCKING HATE LINUX. Somethign >>Needs To Be Done." > >Bull. Perhaps YOU are full of irrational hatred (and therefore project it), >but I am not. > >I see FreeBSD's continued failure to emerge into the limelight, in >contrast with Linux's runaway success, as the result of serious problems >in public relations, promotion, and advocacy. In particular, Jordan >Hubbard's refusal to acknowledge his own shortcomings as a PR person, >as well as WHAT WORKS, are to blame. It's your perception that is broken. FreeBSD has in the past and continues to grow at nearly the _exact_ same exponential growth curve that Linux has; we're just about 2 years behind them and considering that they actually started two years before FreeBSD was formed, this should come as no surprise. It's definately not an even playing field and Linux clearly has a time advantage. There is definately room for improvement. While you have philosophical differences with Jordan, you must realize that we have grown from nothing to an estimated 2 million installed base and that we ARE quite successful in our advocacy efforts to date. You want more...great! Go for it! As I said to you in private email, you will never get official support for raving zealotry from the FreeBSD Project core. We've worked hard for more than 6 years to cultivate a professional reputation and we're not about to sacrifice that professionalism in an attempt at increasing market share. If you want to do that, as a disconnected part of the FreeBSD user community, then that's your business, but we (core) can't be part of it. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 20:51:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 496A714F30 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:51:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id NAA00177; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:19:09 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id NAA28219; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:19:07 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990416131907.H27806@lemis.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:19:07 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Brett vorm Kopf , Lee Cremeans , dg@root.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Brett the rabid (was: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!)) References: <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> <19990415224308.A99868@erols.com> <4.2.0.32.19990415205608.00c78d10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990415205608.00c78d10@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 09:04:25PM -0600 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 15 April 1999 at 21:04:25 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:43 PM 4/15/99 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > >> All Brett sees is "Linux is beating us. I FSCKING HATE LINUX. Somethign >> Needs To Be Done." > > Bull. Perhaps YOU are full of irrational hatred (and therefore project it), > but I am not. People, it's patently obvious that no amount of reasoning with Brett will change his mind. Why not do the obvious thing and ignore him? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 20:58:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lcremeans.erols.com (lcremeans.erols.com [216.164.87.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7471914C26 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:58:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@lcremeans.erols.com) Received: (from lee@localhost) by lcremeans.erols.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id XAA00192 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:55:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990415235551.A99992@erols.com> Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:55:51 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: On PR Wars and a Plea for Peace Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE Organization: My room? Are you crazy? :) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Over the past week, I've watched this thread mutate from a freindly thread about FreeBSD being used in a hit movie into yes another BSD-vs.-GPL thread...or more appropriately, a Brett Glass-vs.-everyone thread. I know that some people just won't ever get it, but here's where we stand: * It has been stated over and over again that "FreeBSD will die because it's not being marketed properly". Of course, this usually means "it's not in a nice pretty box next to Red Hat and Caldera, on a shelf at CompUSA/Fry's/etc.". I, personally, don't see this as a problem. People _are_ discovering FreeBSD in spite of all this, and usually by word-of-mouth (which is the best advertising you can get). I see at least 2 or 3 people a night in the two main #freebsd IRC channels that have come from Linux, and are asking for help -- say what you want about tech support over IRC, but people ARE finding us. * The GPL and "deferring" to Linux. All right, so Linux is GPL'd, and we as a general rule prefer BSD-licensed code to GPL. But the level of fervor I see Brett putting forth is rather scary; it's almost reminiscent of the Red Scares of the past 100 years, with Linux and the GPL people as the "dirty pinko Commies". I honestly don't see it that way; sure, RMS would like to see all software be free, but look at it like this: Red Hat, Caldera, hell, even Walnut Creek _itself_ make a killing on free software, of both sorts. I don't see good American software business (which btw has really only existed since 1976, when Microsoft Basic for the Altair came out) going down the tubes just yet. As for licensing, yes, I do prefer the BSD licensing, but let's keep an open mind about this. And deferring to Linux, given the current climate, is a _good_ thing because, let's face it, there's a lot more Linux users, at the moment, than FreeBSD users, and companies want to sell to the largest common denominator. If we get enough users, we can do a native version, but we need the critical mass to do that. Don't put the cart before the horse. * Finally, the fervor: I find all the frothing at the mouth and ad-hominem attacks VERY disturbing. As I said in my last post, people that get yelled at "your OS sucks! try this one or we'll beat the crap out of you!" will tend to either write you off as a lunatic, call the police, or both. The fact is, people prefer logical, calmly-stated arguments to why something is bad/something else is better, rather than ranting, screaming, insulting tirades. Also, things like posting private email to the lists and such are VERY rude, and IMO, that should have warranted a ban from the lists. I think that, at this point, everyone needs to back off this and get back to life. Spending time arguing about this, especially with someone who refuses to back down, is utterly pointless, and this will be my LAST post on the matter. -lee...flames to /dev/null. by procmail, if necessary. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | | lcremeans@erols.com | http://wakky.dyndns.org/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 21: 7:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 137C114DE9 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:07:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA04669; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:04:33 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990415215446.0095d610@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:56:44 -0600 To: chris@calldei.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz In-Reply-To: <19990415221527.I3986@holly.dyndns.org> References: <4.2.0.32.19990415195943.045f9100@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990415110155.045695d0@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990415195943.045f9100@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:15 PM 4/15/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > The reason for the lack of these tools was explained in the >sentence you quoted. "quote patently, FreeBSD's approach is *not* >desktop oriented," -- this seems to explain it well. No, Jordan's approach is not desktop-oriented. Which is a BIG mistake, and a decision he should not be allowed to make. Unless an OS can at least be adapted to be desktop-friendly, it will never fully enter the mainstream. --Brett Glass "You're not just e-mailing her, you're e-mailing anyone she's ever e-mailed." -- Dayton Daily News Cartoonist Mike Peters on the "Melissa virus" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 21:10:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BF0D14DE9 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:10:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id C96CD34CD; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:03:57 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:03:36 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: Jon Hamilton Cc: Lee Cremeans , dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-Reply-To: <19990416032553.90D58155@woodstock.monkey.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD is in good company - how many other long lasting computing projects have had their death greatly exaggerated? Unix, COBOL, mainframes, client/server, the PC, etc., etc. :-) Eric Wayte, DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Jon Hamilton wrote: > > Yeah, yeah. ``Death of FreeBSD, film at 11'' and all that. > > -- > Jon Hamilton > hamilton@pobox.com > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 21:17:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (notabene.zer0.org [206.24.105.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65062152D5 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:17:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id VAA37514; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:14:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:14:37 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: Brett Glass Cc: chris@calldei.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Message-ID: <19990415211437.H5762@001101.zer0.org> References: <4.2.0.32.19990415195943.045f9100@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990415110155.045695d0@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990415195943.045f9100@localhost> <19990415221527.I3986@holly.dyndns.org> <4.2.0.32.19990415215446.0095d610@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990415215446.0095d610@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 09:56:44PM -0600 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 09:56:44PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:15 PM 4/15/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > > > The reason for the lack of these tools was explained in the > >sentence you quoted. "quote patently, FreeBSD's approach is *not* > >desktop oriented," -- this seems to explain it well. > > No, Jordan's approach is not desktop-oriented. Which is a BIG mistake, > and a decision he should not be allowed to make. > > Unless an OS can at least be adapted to be desktop-friendly, it will > never fully enter the mainstream. Brett! IN CASE YOU HAVE SOMEHOW MISSED IT! The desktop-design contest was canceled for lack of participation. Nobody has stepped forward with a nice set of packages that FreeBSD could use as a standard desktop. We need a solid, utilitarian, yet good-looking desktop package to go with our solid, utilitarian, yet usually graceful OS. Since it seems from the lack of participation that nobody really wants to be the desktop designer, it's yet one more task on the lengthy list of potential improvements. Perhaps you'd like to form a team to take this one on. Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Failing sardine factory cans employees! mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 21:19:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eagle.phc.igs.net (eagle.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F2EC152D5 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:19:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@eagle.phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by eagle.phc.igs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA86377; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:11:29 GMT (envelope-from eagle@eagle.phc.igs.net) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:11:29 +0000 (GMT) From: eagle To: Brett Glass Cc: chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990415215446.0095d610@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:15 PM 4/15/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > > > The reason for the lack of these tools was explained in the > >sentence you quoted. "quote patently, FreeBSD's approach is *not* > >desktop oriented," -- this seems to explain it well. > > No, Jordan's approach is not desktop-oriented. Which is a BIG mistake, > and a decision he should not be allowed to make. > > Unless an OS can at least be adapted to be desktop-friendly, it will > never fully enter the mainstream. > > --Brett Glass > > "You're not just e-mailing her, you're e-mailing anyone she's ever > e-mailed." > > -- Dayton Daily News Cartoonist Mike Peters on the "Melissa virus" > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > Don't go away mad Brett just go away any future commonications from mr. glass will go to /dev/null here at least To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 21:29:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4803714C37 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA88342; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:23:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904160423.VAA88342@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Eric Wayte Cc: Jon Hamilton , Lee Cremeans , dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:03:36 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:23:49 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry the PERCEPTION is that we either don't exist or we are dying by virtue of Linux growing acceptance. The FreeBSD group or culture with respect to marketing has stayed the same since its inceptions any attempt to change for better or worse is bound to fail due to its mature resilient nature. We could take this argument to the linux usenet advocacy list or an nt advocacy list given that probably very few outside of FreeBSD ever read this mailing list. At any rate, I admire Brett for its stamina we just got to find a common ground to have him maket FreeBSD. HINT: He *IS* smart and can be a very powerful resource;however, I bet that is easier to bury and scare him away . My closing remark: Not too long ago I attended a dinner with some of my friends . They ask me what I thought of Linux so I explained my fundamental issue with Linux : The GPL. Their response: Oh my God! They simply didn't know about GPL . What is sad is that their company, SGI is endorsing Linux. Amancio > FreeBSD is in good company - how many other long lasting computing > projects have had their death greatly exaggerated? > > Unix, COBOL, mainframes, client/server, the PC, etc., etc. :-) > > > Eric Wayte, DBA > Univ. of Central Florida > ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu > > > On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Jon Hamilton wrote: > > > > > Yeah, yeah. ``Death of FreeBSD, film at 11'' and all that. > > > > -- > > Jon Hamilton > > hamilton@pobox.com > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 21:41:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27EB714C37 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:41:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA88389; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:35:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904160435.VAA88389@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: eagle Cc: Brett Glass , chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:11:29 -0000." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 21:35:19 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think that if Brett goes quite a few will go too and I am not talking about myself already got a few e-mails from old freebsd buddies which are switching to Linux and I expect that if the ease of use of the system does not get remedied that more will follow. Fortunately, linux and freebsd are open source so many of the linux programs can be ported to freebsd and in fact when it comes to application deployment that has been the main course which is not a bad strategy if people don't want to write applications. Amancio > Don't go away mad Brett just go away > > any future commonications from mr. glass will go to /dev/null > > here at least > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 22:43:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABDC714D00 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:43:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA47163; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:41:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:41:02 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass Cc: chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Message-ID: <19990415224102.A47059@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <4.2.0.32.19990415195943.045f9100@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990415110155.045695d0@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990415195943.045f9100@localhost> <19990415221527.I3986@holly.dyndns.org> <4.2.0.32.19990415215446.0095d610@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990415215446.0095d610@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 09:56:44PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 09:56:44PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:15 PM 4/15/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > > > The reason for the lack of these tools was explained in the > >sentence you quoted. "quote patently, FreeBSD's approach is *not* > >desktop oriented," -- this seems to explain it well. > > No, Jordan's approach is not desktop-oriented. Which is a BIG mistake, > and a decision he should not be allowed to make. > > Unless an OS can at least be adapted to be desktop-friendly, it will > never fully enter the mainstream. No one is stoping you from writing the tools needed to make FreeBSD a "desktop-oriented" system. Just as no one is stoping you from writing a FreeBSD emulator for Linux which, if I remember right, was you last obsession. If you feel that there are things missing from FreeBSD you need to go and build them. Brett, the reason people don't want to listen to you is not some deep, dark cabal that is out to silence you. It's very simple; no one likes someone who yells and scream about what they are should be doing but the person who is doing the complaining is not lifting a finger to help. Not to put too fine a point on it, no one likes a back seat driver. As many of us here on this list have told you _MANY_ times before, it's time to put up or shut up. Your a great one for talking but not much for doing anything. Tell you what, I plan on following Phish around the country this summer so why don't you post the schedule of your user group and Install-A-Thons you have started and I'll see if I can fit a visit into my schedule this summer. Time to put up or shut up Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 22:53: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hades.riverstyx.net [216.94.42.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF15B14C8B for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:53:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28877; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:51:09 -0700 Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:51:09 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Amancio Hasty Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-Reply-To: <199904160423.VAA88342@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There've been a couple people complaining about the GPL on this list in the past few messages -- any particular reason why? RMS is a bit of a prick (especially recently -- I can't believe he wants to rename Linux to GNU/Linux because it tends to ship with Gnu tools), but I don't see a problem with the actual license. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Not too long ago I attended a dinner with some of my friends . They ask me what > I thought of Linux so I explained my fundamental issue with Linux : The GPL. > Their response: Oh my God! > > They simply didn't know about GPL . What is sad is that their company, SGI > is endorsing Linux. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 23: 5:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F6014C8B for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:05:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA88836; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:01:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Cc: Brett Glass , chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:41:02 PDT." <19990415224102.A47059@ontario.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:01:51 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No one is stoping you from writing the tools needed to make FreeBSD a > "desktop-oriented" system. Just as no one is stoping you from writing a > FreeBSD emulator for Linux which, if I remember right, was you last > obsession. If you feel that there are things missing from FreeBSD you need > to go and build them. Actually, a better question is why are people not writing applications? Is it because they lack the programming skills, inefficient tools, targetted goals, etc... Amancio -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 23:12:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from eagle.phc.igs.net (eagle.phc.igs.net [207.210.17.201]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CBC814E44 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:12:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eagle@eagle.phc.igs.net) Received: from localhost (eagle@localhost) by eagle.phc.igs.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA86650; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:08:04 GMT (envelope-from eagle@eagle.phc.igs.net) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:08:04 +0000 (GMT) From: eagle To: Amancio Hasty Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, Brett Glass , chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-Reply-To: <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > No one is stoping you from writing the tools needed to make FreeBSD a > > "desktop-oriented" system. Just as no one is stoping you from writing a > > FreeBSD emulator for Linux which, if I remember right, was you last > > obsession. If you feel that there are things missing from FreeBSD you need > > to go and build them. > > Actually, a better question is why are people not writing applications? > Is it because they lack the programming skills, inefficient tools, targetted > goals, etc... > > Amancio > i've come to the conclusion that it has to do with available documentation, thus the PDP was started, however that will just cover freebsd internals, not the x protocol rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 23:18:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B47E614E44 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:18:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id XAA47380; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:14:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:14:13 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Amancio Hasty Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, Brett Glass , chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Message-ID: <19990415231413.A47332@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <19990415224102.A47059@ontario.mooseriver.com> <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 11:01:51PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 11:01:51PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > No one is stoping you from writing the tools needed to make FreeBSD a > > "desktop-oriented" system. Just as no one is stoping you from writing a > > FreeBSD emulator for Linux which, if I remember right, was you last > > obsession. If you feel that there are things missing from FreeBSD you need > > to go and build them. > > Actually, a better question is why are people not writing applications? > Is it because they lack the programming skills, inefficient tools, > targetted goals, etc... Finally an intelligent question. Thank you! I don't think it is a lack of programming skills. I have written both device drivers and accounting packages. Let me tell you, a device driver is a lot harder to write but accounting packages are just boring. I mean, how many different ways can you think of to calculate a payroll check? I think we have the tools to do just about anything you could think of. I think the problem is a lot of FreeBSD people want to be kernel hackers and don't want to get their hands dirty with double-entry bookkeeping, warehouse, order-entry, or assent management systems. There is just not a lot of glory in the hacker world for these kinds of programs. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 23:27:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B77FD14E44 for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:27:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: (from hamellr@localhost) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) id XAA20512; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:23:20 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:23:20 -0700 (PDT) From: rick hamell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: What's wrong with GPL? (was Re: Jordan the Confused) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > There've been a couple people complaining about the GPL on this list in > the past few messages -- any particular reason why? RMS is a bit of a > prick (especially recently -- I can't believe he wants to rename Linux to > GNU/Linux because it tends to ship with Gnu tools), but I don't see a > problem with the actual license. This was my questions too. What makes GPL worse then the FreeBSD licence? Maybe it's more obvious if I wasn't a relative newbie. Also, in regards to user friendlyness, what are people complaining about? Having just recently install Linux and FreeBSD for the first time within the last six months, I found the FreeBSD install much simpler. Pop in the CDROM, turn on the computer, hit novice install. Away it went... Linux was a pain in the arse... had to download the bootdisks and make them because the boot off cdrom option was broken in that release. In other words, the FreeBSD installation took less then an hour, the Linux one took me nearly two days! Now, the big problem I see as a newbie, is the lack of documentation, I'm sure this has been heard before! Even with the documentation we do have it seems to be slightly hard to find. Now, before anyone says anything, I've already started working on documentation myself... :) The only other problem I really see is the whole PPP thing, for a month it was the only thing to keep me from using FreeBSD all the time. I think it's confusing because there does not seem to always be a differance (doc wise,) between kernal and user ppp. I also realize that it's probally hard to do so, there are so many options! I'd like to see an installation script of sorts for this with a few simple questions. I.e. is this computer going to be the gateway for a network? Do you have a static IP or do you need to get one assigned? Is your modem PNP or other? Etc, etc. It is my intention to do this... once I figure out how to get ppp working right... :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 15 23:42:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lcremeans.erols.com (lcremeans.erols.com [216.164.87.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB01A14E7E for ; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:42:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@lcremeans.erols.com) Received: (from lee@localhost) by lcremeans.erols.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id CAA00762; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:40:04 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990416024004.A731@erols.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:40:04 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: rick hamell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's wrong with GPL? (was Re: Jordan the Confused) References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from rick hamell on Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 11:23:20PM -0700 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE Organization: My room? Are you crazy? :) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 11:23:20PM -0700, rick hamell wrote: > > > There've been a couple people complaining about the GPL on this list in > > the past few messages -- any particular reason why? RMS is a bit of a > > prick (especially recently -- I can't believe he wants to rename Linux to > > GNU/Linux because it tends to ship with Gnu tools), but I don't see a > > problem with the actual license. > > This was my questions too. What makes GPL worse then the FreeBSD > licence? Maybe it's more obvious if I wasn't a relative newbie. Well, the difference is that the BSD license is friendlier to people who want to "borrow" BSD code to use in a closed-source project. The GPL requires that all modifications to GPL'd code stay under the GPL, making it a pain to use when you want to make proprietary enhancements to it. BSD, however, just asks that you give credit where it's due. The GPL reflects a vision of RMS's where all software is free (i.e. comes with buildable source etc.). Not everyone wants to go quite that far. (as for RMS being a prick about GNU/Linux, I think he's just jealous because Linux beat him to having a working kernel by several years...remember, GNU was intended to be a full Unix clone.) -lee -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | | lcremeans@erols.com | http://wakky.dyndns.org/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 0:15: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9522614BEA for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:14:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA89239; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:11:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904160711.AAA89239@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Cc: Brett Glass , chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 1999 23:14:13 PDT." <19990415231413.A47332@ontario.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:11:26 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Josef, We do have applications programmers on board and companies that spend quite a bit of time writing applications . Perhaps a "user friendly environ" is what is needed in fact very much with what FreeBSD started as being. Just try to look at it from an outsider or application programmer point of view : do you want to put up with a lot of hazzle in having the code checked in or conductiong endless stupid debates. So be *extra* nice to applicaton programmers !! Amancio > On Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 11:01:51PM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > No one is stoping you from writing the tools needed to make FreeBSD a > > > "desktop-oriented" system. Just as no one is stoping you from writing a > > > FreeBSD emulator for Linux which, if I remember right, was you last > > > obsession. If you feel that there are things missing from FreeBSD you need > > > to go and build them. > > > > Actually, a better question is why are people not writing applications? > > Is it because they lack the programming skills, inefficient tools, > > targetted goals, etc... > > Finally an intelligent question. Thank you! > > I don't think it is a lack of programming skills. I have written both > device drivers and accounting packages. Let me tell you, a device driver is > a lot harder to write but accounting packages are just boring. I mean, how > many different ways can you think of to calculate a payroll check? > > I think we have the tools to do just about anything you could think of. I > think the problem is a lot of FreeBSD people want to be kernel hackers and > don't want to get their hands dirty with double-entry bookkeeping, > warehouse, order-entry, or assent management systems. There is just not a > lot of glory in the hacker world for these kinds of programs. > > > Josef > > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 0:44:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D11BF14FB7 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:44:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA89424; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:40:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904160740.AAA89424@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, Brett Glass , chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: App Idea: Configuration In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:11:26 PDT." <199904160711.AAA89239@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:40:56 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Proposal: Use ldap to build the foundation for configuration of FreeBSD systems and eliminate silly RC scripts. What is LDAP? You can find out at: http://www.openldap.org openldap compiles with no fuzz on Freebsd and there is an older version available in port/net/ldap. We can start real small like creating an ldap schema for email accounts . Netscape has released their java api for ldap and the ldap package comes with a C api;perhaps, there is C++ api for ldap for C++ fans. I think it would be cool to have a yellow pages of freebsd hackers around the world o=freebsd, c=world 8) To help the group get started on using ldap , try building the ports version or download ldap from www.openldap.org. What follows is a simple configuration. Here is my slapd.conf include /usr/local/etc/ldap/slapd.at.conf include /usr/local/etc/ldap/slapd.oc.conf schemacheck off referral ldap://ldap.itd.umich.edu ####################################################################### # ldbm database definitions ####################################################################### database ldbm suffix "o=star-gate.com, c=US" directory /usr/tmp/ldap rootdn "cn=root, o=star-gate.com, c=US" roopw ****** The start of my ldif file , myldif: dn:o=star-gate.com, c=US o:star-gate.com objectclass:organization dn:cn=Amancio Hasty, o=star-gate.com, c=US cn:Amancio Hasty sn:Hasty mail:hasty@star-gate.com telephoneNumber:+1 408 530 1915 objectclass:person To "batch" build ldap entries: ldif2ldbm -i myldif -i slapd.conf Here is my ldap.conf to store default values for my ldap server: cat ldap.conf # # LDAP Defaults # # See ldap.conf(5) for details # This file should be world readable. BASE o=star-gate.com, c=US #BASE dc=OpenLDAP, dc=Org HOST localhost #HOST ldap.openldap.org ldap-master.openldap.org:666 #PORT 389 #SIZELIMIT 12 #TIMELIMIT 15 Lets see if it works: ../../bin/ldapsearch "sn=hasty" dn: cn=Amancio Hasty, o=star-gate.com, c=US cn: Amancio Hasty sn: Hasty mail: hasty@star-gate.com telephonenumber: +1 408 530 1915 objectclass: person Cool, now I can have a networked email address book which I can access with Netscape's emailer. Apparently sendmail has has patches for ldap so a couple of tools begin to be easily manageable. For unix command-line fans they can always use ldap's programs: ldapsearch , ldapmodify, etc... This is the beginning's of an ldap email schema editor and it is written in java. http://www.iit.edu/~gawojar/ldap/download.html Sounds like the beginnings of a nice project and all of you are invited to play. I need database schema designers, database/file system designers, GUI people , application writers, documentation people, web designers, etc... -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 0:44:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 4577614FB7 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 00:44:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 27955 invoked by uid 1003); 16 Apr 1999 09:41:25 -0000 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:41:25 +0000 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Brett Glass Cc: Lee Cremeans , dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Message-ID: <19990416094124.A26629@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> <19990415224308.A99868@erols.com> <4.2.0.32.19990415205608.00c78d10@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990415205608.00c78d10@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 09:04:25PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu 1999-04-15 (21:04), Brett Glass wrote: > >All Brett sees is "Linux is beating us. I FSCKING HATE LINUX. Somethign > >Needs To Be Done." > > Bull. Perhaps YOU are full of irrational hatred (and therefore project it), > but I am not. Hmm.. "I know you are, but what am I"? (perhaps it's not as international as it appears to me, but it's a common argumentative tool used by 5-9 year olds when someone calls them a name they don't like (and usually which fits)) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 1: 8:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96AB514DC8 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:08:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA89595 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:04:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904160804.BAA89595@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Speeding up Application Development and Deployment Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:04:56 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Use a java to native code compiler such as Electrical Fire: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/ef/ The catch ? EF is a compiler on its early stages there is more work to be done however it does compile and run mighty fine on FreeBSD. ****Want a task list:********* Scott Furman from netscape wrote: Amancio Hasty wrote: >> As low level compiler works continues , is there a task list of things >> that needs to get done to get a robust fully functionable EF release? > There is the developer roadmap that hangs off the EF homepage. > I haven't updated it in more than a month, yet it's still fairly up to date: > > http://www.mozilla.org/projects/ef/plan.html >What this document probably does not do well is rank the importance >of the various tasks. Here are the top tasks, roughly in decreasing order of >importance > Integration of EF with Java runtime libraries, either ClassPath's or JDK1.2's or both > Integration of SportModel garbage collection code > Improved build system in which dependencies are handled properly, > possibly also with some unification between Windows/Unix > Automated build with Tinderbox reporting > Automated testing, probably using new Mauve test suite >At the moment, I'm spending my time on the build issues. > Hopefully, I'll have something usable in the next few weeks. --------------------------------------------------------------- Top priority implement JNI for EF so that GNU's classpath library (http://www.classpath.org ) can be integrated into EF. -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 1:37:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hades.riverstyx.net [216.94.42.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EAB014C37 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:37:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00431; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:36:09 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:36:09 -0700 (PDT) From: To: rick hamell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's wrong with GPL? (was Re: Jordan the Confused) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org That's actually quite different from my experiences. On the other hand, I may be missing out on the typical Linux installation difficulties, having had most of my experience under Linux. It's been a while since my first installation -- but the first UNIX-like OS that I ever installed was FreeBSD, and it definitely seemed more mysterious. The CD boot feature is pretty particular to you though AFAIK. Most installations of Linux that I do take under an hour. And they do (sometimes) ask you about setting up PPP, static IP, DHCP, etc. Redhat has a pretty slick user interface for setting up PPP (I used it once... who usees PPP anymore anyway? :-)) But in regards to the GPL, it seems like a fairly innocuous kinda thing. I write some software, declare it to be GPL'd, and thus guaranteeing that the source code shall remain available. It doesn't really limit me all that much. And if I write a new version, I can opt to not release it under the GPL, freeing me from its burdens should I decide that I want to go commercial with it. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, rick hamell wrote: > > > There've been a couple people complaining about the GPL on this list in > > the past few messages -- any particular reason why? RMS is a bit of a > > prick (especially recently -- I can't believe he wants to rename Linux to > > GNU/Linux because it tends to ship with Gnu tools), but I don't see a > > problem with the actual license. > > This was my questions too. What makes GPL worse then the FreeBSD > licence? Maybe it's more obvious if I wasn't a relative newbie. > Also, in regards to user friendlyness, what are people > complaining about? Having just recently install Linux and FreeBSD for the > first time within the last six months, I found the FreeBSD install much > simpler. Pop in the CDROM, turn on the computer, hit novice install. Away > it went... Linux was a pain in the arse... had to download the bootdisks > and make them because the boot off cdrom option was broken in that > release. In other words, the FreeBSD installation took less then an hour, > the Linux one took me nearly two days! > Now, the big problem I see as a newbie, is the lack of > documentation, I'm sure this has been heard before! Even with the > documentation we do have it seems to be slightly hard to find. Now, > before anyone says anything, I've already started working on > documentation myself... :) > The only other problem I really see is the whole PPP thing, for a > month it was the only thing to keep me from using FreeBSD all the time. I > think it's confusing because there does not seem to always be a > differance (doc wise,) between kernal and user ppp. I also realize that > it's probally hard to do so, there are so many options! I'd like to see > an installation script of sorts for this with a few simple questions. > I.e. is this computer going to be the gateway for a network? Do you have > a static IP or do you need to get one assigned? Is your modem PNP or > other? Etc, etc. It is my intention to do this... once I figure out how > to get ppp working right... :) > > > Rick > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 1:44:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hades.riverstyx.net [216.94.42.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38FC915330 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:44:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA00580; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:43:10 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:43:10 -0700 (PDT) From: To: Lee Cremeans Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's wrong with GPL? (was Re: Jordan the Confused) In-Reply-To: <19990416024004.A731@erols.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I guess that's important to some people... I don't see how it's a big deal though. My code, my option, right? At least under the GPL, any development done gets fed right back into the development cycle and increases the worth of the project. That's really the difference, I think. The GPL is designed to further the original project, while the BSD license is designed to increase the worth of the "universal code base". --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Thu, Apr 15, 1999 at 11:23:20PM -0700, rick hamell wrote: > > > > > There've been a couple people complaining about the GPL on this list in > > > the past few messages -- any particular reason why? RMS is a bit of a > > > prick (especially recently -- I can't believe he wants to rename Linux to > > > GNU/Linux because it tends to ship with Gnu tools), but I don't see a > > > problem with the actual license. > > > > This was my questions too. What makes GPL worse then the FreeBSD > > licence? Maybe it's more obvious if I wasn't a relative newbie. > > Well, the difference is that the BSD license is friendlier to people who > want to "borrow" BSD code to use in a closed-source project. The GPL > requires that all modifications to GPL'd code stay under the GPL, making it > a pain to use when you want to make proprietary enhancements to it. BSD, > however, just asks that you give credit where it's due. > > The GPL reflects a vision of RMS's where all software is free (i.e. comes > with buildable source etc.). Not everyone wants to go quite that far. > > (as for RMS being a prick about GNU/Linux, I think he's just jealous because > Linux beat him to having a working kernel by several years...remember, GNU > was intended to be a full Unix clone.) > > -lee > > -- > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | > | lcremeans@erols.com | http://wakky.dyndns.org/~lee | > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 1:45:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lcremeans.erols.com (lcremeans.erols.com [216.164.87.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F02115382 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 01:45:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@lcremeans.erols.com) Received: (from lee@localhost) by lcremeans.erols.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id EAA01033; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 04:41:42 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990416044142.A1020@erols.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 04:41:42 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Neil Blakey-Milner , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Pee-wee? (!) (was: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!)) References: <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> <19990415224308.A99868@erols.com> <4.2.0.32.19990415205608.00c78d10@localhost> <19990416094124.A26629@rucus.ru.ac.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990416094124.A26629@rucus.ru.ac.za>; from Neil Blakey-Milner on Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 09:41:25AM +0000 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE Organization: My room? Are you crazy? :) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 09:41:25AM +0000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > "I know you are, but what am I"? > > (perhaps it's not as international as it appears to me, but it's a > common argumentative tool used by 5-9 year olds when someone calls them > a name they don't like (and usually which fits)) International...hm. AFAIK, that's a line from Pee-Wee Herman's first movie in 1985 (Pee-Wee's Big Adventure), a movie from here in the States. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | | lcremeans@erols.com | http://wakky.dyndns.org/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 2:13:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA5F815389 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:13:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA11924; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 05:10:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA01453; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 05:10:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 05:10:51 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: unknown@riverstyx.net Subject: Re: What's wrong with GPL? (was Re: Jordan the Confused) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, rick hamell Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-Apr-99 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > But in regards to the GPL, it seems like a fairly innocuous kinda thing. > I write some software, declare it to be GPL'd, and thus guaranteeing that > the source code shall remain available. It doesn't really limit me all > that much. And if I write a new version, I can opt to not release it > under the GPL, freeing me from its burdens should I decide that I want to > go commercial with it. Actually, (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but if you release version 1.0 under GPL, and use any of the 1.0 code in version 2.0 that you try to sell w/o the source, then anyone can sue you for the source code to version 2.0 because it would be a derivative of 1.0 and by the GPL that means the source to 2.0 would have to be GPL'd and thus freely available, which prevents you from selling it, for all intents and purposes. It gets much worse when you have a large propietary product, such as your own OS specific to your application, and you want to add drivers for a newer network card. You wouldn't be able to use GPL'd code because you would screw yourself. You'd have to release the source code to your propietary OS, which your competitors would gladly take from you and sink you. OTOH, such a company can safely use BSL'd code without worrying about having to release the source to their competitors. And let's face it, not all software is going to be free, we do have to eat somehow. So we can't kill all possibility of selling software. > --- > tani hosokawa > river styx internet --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 2:27:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hades.riverstyx.net [216.94.42.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C4DD14D5F for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:27:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA01588; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:25:49 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:25:49 -0700 (PDT) From: To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's wrong with GPL? (was Re: Jordan the Confused) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm not saying that GPL is suited for everything. Obviously, it's not. Tax software comes to mind immediately... wouldn't be much point in compiling all that data and writing code to handle each year's taxation if anyone could come in and capitalize on your efforts any time the liked. However, for some purposes GPL is perfect. It seems to work great for operating system development... And your driver analogy is flawed. I'm pretty sure that driver's have already proven to be separate programs. So if you port a driver to your own personal OS, then you have to release your new driver code, but you shouldn't have to release your OS source. I'm positive that there are Linux drivers that don't have available source code. I use a closed source X server for my i870 card for example. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 16-Apr-99 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > > But in regards to the GPL, it seems like a fairly innocuous kinda thing. > > I write some software, declare it to be GPL'd, and thus guaranteeing that > > the source code shall remain available. It doesn't really limit me all > > that much. And if I write a new version, I can opt to not release it > > under the GPL, freeing me from its burdens should I decide that I want to > > go commercial with it. > > Actually, (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but if you release version 1.0 > under GPL, and use any of the 1.0 code in version 2.0 that you try to sell w/o > the source, then anyone can sue you for the source code to version 2.0 because > it would be a derivative of 1.0 and by the GPL that means the source to 2.0 > would have to be GPL'd and thus freely available, which prevents you from > selling it, for all intents and purposes. It gets much worse when you have a > large propietary product, such as your own OS specific to your application, > and you want to add drivers for a newer network card. You wouldn't be able to > use GPL'd code because you would screw yourself. You'd have to release the > source code to your propietary OS, which your competitors would gladly take > from you and sink you. OTOH, such a company can safely use BSL'd code without > worrying about having to release the source to their competitors. And let's > face it, not all software is going to be free, we do have to eat somehow. So > we can't kill all possibility of selling software. > > > --- > > tani hosokawa > > river styx internet > > --- > > John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ > PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 2:39:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hades.riverstyx.net [216.94.42.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF8714ECE for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:39:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA02029; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:37:33 -0700 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:37:33 -0700 (PDT) From: To: John Baldwin Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What's wrong with GPL? (was Re: Jordan the Confused) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After rereading the GPL from this slightly different perspective, I wish to change my position :-) The GPL is pretty borg-like. I'm now anti-GPL. I hadn't realised how many rights you end up giving up with that thing attached to your software... Lordy. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Fri, 16 Apr 1999 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > I'm not saying that GPL is suited for everything. Obviously, it's not. > Tax software comes to mind immediately... wouldn't be much point in > compiling all that data and writing code to handle each year's taxation if > anyone could come in and capitalize on your efforts any time the liked. > However, for some purposes GPL is perfect. It seems to work great for > operating system development... > > And your driver analogy is flawed. I'm pretty sure that driver's have > already proven to be separate programs. So if you port a driver to your > own personal OS, then you have to release your new driver code, but you > shouldn't have to release your OS source. I'm positive that there are > Linux drivers that don't have available source code. I use a closed > source X server for my i870 card for example. > > --- > tani hosokawa > river styx internet > > > On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, John Baldwin wrote: > > > > > On 16-Apr-99 unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > > > But in regards to the GPL, it seems like a fairly innocuous kinda thing. > > > I write some software, declare it to be GPL'd, and thus guaranteeing that > > > the source code shall remain available. It doesn't really limit me all > > > that much. And if I write a new version, I can opt to not release it > > > under the GPL, freeing me from its burdens should I decide that I want to > > > go commercial with it. > > > > Actually, (someone correct me if I'm wrong), but if you release version 1.0 > > under GPL, and use any of the 1.0 code in version 2.0 that you try to sell w/o > > the source, then anyone can sue you for the source code to version 2.0 because > > it would be a derivative of 1.0 and by the GPL that means the source to 2.0 > > would have to be GPL'd and thus freely available, which prevents you from > > selling it, for all intents and purposes. It gets much worse when you have a > > large propietary product, such as your own OS specific to your application, > > and you want to add drivers for a newer network card. You wouldn't be able to > > use GPL'd code because you would screw yourself. You'd have to release the > > source code to your propietary OS, which your competitors would gladly take > > from you and sink you. OTOH, such a company can safely use BSL'd code without > > worrying about having to release the source to their competitors. And let's > > face it, not all software is going to be free, we do have to eat somehow. So > > we can't kill all possibility of selling software. > > > > > --- > > > tani hosokawa > > > river styx internet > > > > --- > > > > John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ > > PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc > > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 2:40:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from opi.flirtbox.ch (unknown [62.48.0.50]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8BAF1151BB for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:40:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from oppermann@pipeline.ch) Received: (qmail 29279 invoked from network); 16 Apr 1999 09:38:01 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO pipeline.ch) (195.134.128.41) by opi.flirtbox.ch with SMTP; 16 Apr 1999 09:38:01 -0000 Message-ID: <371704EF.1B5B7265@pipeline.ch> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:37:51 +0200 From: Andre Oppermann X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (WinNT; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Amancio Hasty Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, Brett Glass , chris@calldei.com, Daniel O'Connor , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: App Idea: Configuration References: <199904160740.AAA89424@rah.star-gate.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Amancio Hasty wrote: -snip- > Cool, now I can have a networked email address book which I can access with > Netscape's emailer. Apparently sendmail has has patches for ldap so a couple of > tools begin to be easily manageable. For unix command-line fans they can > always use ldap's programs: ldapsearch , ldapmodify, etc... Not only sendmail has patches for LDAP, qmail too. We did it! You can get the qmail-LDAP patches from http://www.nrg4u.com/ (Note: There are quite old, we have now a CVS repository and roll the next patch very soon). -- Andre Oppermann CEO / Geschaeftsfuehrer Internet Business Solutions Ltd. (AG) Hardstrasse 235, 8005 Zurich, Switzerland Fon +41 1 277 75 75 / Fax +41 1 277 75 77 http://www.pipeline.ch ibs@pipeline.ch To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 2:43:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78F7515096 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Y57V-0007LX-0A; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:41:10 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA02162; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:40:05 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA03288; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:40:04 +0100 Message-ID: <37170542.ADA20EF3@uk.radan.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:39:14 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lee Cremeans Cc: Neil Blakey-Milner , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Pee-wee? (!) (was: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!)) References: <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> <19990415224308.A99868@erols.com> <4.2.0.32.19990415205608.00c78d10@localhost> <19990416094124.A26629@rucus.ru.ac.za> <19990416044142.A1020@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lee Cremeans wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 09:41:25AM +0000, Neil Blakey-Milner wrote: > > "I know you are, but what am I"? > > > > (perhaps it's not as international as it appears to me, but it's a > > common argumentative tool used by 5-9 year olds when someone calls them > > a name they don't like (and usually which fits)) > > International...hm. AFAIK, that's a line from Pee-Wee Herman's first movie > in 1985 (Pee-Wee's Big Adventure), a movie from here in the States. > I don't think he was claiming national ownership of the phrase, but pointing out that this is an infantile remark in S. Africa, but not necessarily in other countries. > -- > +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | > | lcremeans@erols.com | http://wakky.dyndns.org/~lee | > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 4:15:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 293C714E1C for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 04:15:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id UAA22520; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:12:42 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3717145B.6B4AB69F@newsguy.com> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:43:39 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <001101be87ad$94130900$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > The idea is to make malloc return NULL (or fork) when the alternative would > be to overcommit. So it has to do with malloc returning NULL _before_ the > operating system runs into a serious overcommit situation. That's full pre-allocation. We have been telling you that's a bad idea. If you have an AIX, turn on pre-allocation system-wide to see what happens. On FreeBSD, run 'ln -s Z /etc/malloc.conf'. It is not the same thing, but will give you a general idea of what we are talking about. Not a very good idea, because it does nothing about the copy-on-write behavior, but some idea. > We are talking about forcing malloc to return NULL. Not about what to do > when/if malloc returns NULL. Precisely. I was never talking about what the applications do. > The problem is, you can't solve a problem in X by fixing the entire rest of > the world. Not only that, but there is no sane algorithm for doing so. > Suppose you have 64Mb of real memory, 512Mb of swap, and 2,500 users. You > tell me what you limit them to. If you have that, you will *never* be able to run a pre-allocating system. What I have shown to you is that the problem of protecting a subset of processes from getting killed is equivalent to the problem of setting a limit to the datasize. As you said, there is no sane algorithm for doing so. > > As an aside, if P does not expand to fill all memory, but you are > > still facing a situation where processes get killed because of > > overcommit, it is simply that you don't have enough memory to run > > what you are trying to run. > > No, it's simply that the operating system allowed a dangerous situation it > could have avoided. It could *not* have been avoided by protecting a subset of programs. It could have been avoided by pre-allocating all memory, in which case you wouldn't have enough memory to run anywhere near as much as you was running in that scenario. > > Err, excuse me? Let's use a "numeric example", as we used to ask our > > algebra professor (only to have it say "Given three numbers, a, b > > and c, ..." :). > > > > We have 64 Mb of memory. We start running processes. At some point, > > they will try to allocate more than 64 Mb of memory. > > Umm, are you assuming no swap? Without swap this whole thing doesn't work. > Let's assume 512Mb of swap. Okay, so we try to allocate more than 64Mb of > memory. I'm assuming 64 Mb total. RAM, ROM, swap, EEPROM, dma buffers, whatever. All of it. Everything. The absolute value is irrelevant. Assume 640 Kb, assume 4 Tb, it doesn't matter. Since you missed this fundamental point, I'm requoting the whole argument. Please, read it. *** beginning > > If at this point we make the malloc calls fail, we are > > pre-allocating everything. This doesn't work because your > > applications get to use a lot less memory than they would otherwise. > > A few very specialized systems have use for that. Unix is not among > > these systems, so pre-allocating systems are not relevant to this > > discussion. > > Umm, we don't need to make mallocs fail. We can always swap dirty pages. So > we're fine. No, we can't swap, because the swap is part of this 64 Mb of memory. > > Thus, we let the applications allocate more than 64 Mb of memory > > before making mallocs fail. This is overcommitting. At this point it > > is theoretically possible that all memory will get touched, causing > > a process to die. In practice, that is unlikely. > > > > Ok, so let the applications grow some more. At some point the system > > will get dangerously close to actually facing a memory starvation > > situation. Before that happens, the system will start failing > > mallocs, so the situation does not worsen. Of course, the system > > must be smart enough to let enough free memory so that normal > > dirtying of pages already allocated won't cause the memory > > starvation, even without any new mallocs. > > > It is simple to decide what point is that. When you finish this as > > your Ph.D. thesis, please send us a reference to your algorithm. *** end > > If the operating system returns NULL, it is either using the > > algorithm you'll describe in your Ph.D. thesis, or the memory is > > exhausted. If the later, some other process, which is not using > > pre-allocated memory, might dirty a page causing something to get > > killed. > > Right, some other process might dirty a page, but that shouldn't cause my > well-behaved process to get killed. My process would prefer to have its > malloc fail. In fact, if my malloc fails, I can even un-mmap some > non-critical stuff (shrinking caches), saving the operating system from > having to kill _anything_. What should get killed then? Whatever it is, it is what I called N, a non-essential process. Go read that explanation again to see why this doesn't work. > When it hasn't enough swap to back all 'vital' process' copy-on-write or > fill-on-demand pages. The definition of vital is up to the implementation. > 'owned by root' would be one definition. 'That successfully executed a > certain system call' would be another. And what is left is N. Go back and read that explanation again. > > Much on the contrary. I'm assuming the kernel cannot arbitrarily > > choose something other than memory full condition to fail on a > > malloc(), because it doesn't know anything about what the process > > needs or not. > > That's an absolutely retarded assumption, and certainly not the assumption > that many UNIXes use. Sure. FreeBSD, for instance, doesn't assume that at all. That's what we call overcommitting. > > Well... ok, what would you have the kernel do? Please describe the > > entire scenario, not just one process. How much real memory exists? > > How much got allocated? When did the mallocs start to fail? How was > > each process memory allocated (pre-allocated or on-demand). > > For the 400th time, the mallocs start to fail in 'critical' processes as > soon as the kernel doesn't have enough physical memory plus swap to back all > their allocations. > > The tradeoff is as follows: the process agrees not to take as much memory > as the operating system might be willing to allocate to it and in exchange, > the operating system agrees not to kill off the process due to memory > conditions beyond that process' control. > > This gives the operating system the benefit of failing mallocs early and > perhaps preventing it from having to kill off processes at all. This gives > the vital process the benefit of not being killed off due to > overcommitment -- the idea is to accept fewer resources in exchange for > those resources being guaranteed. > > If the process is smart enough to do something sensible when malloc fails, > such as return non-critical memory to the operating system, everybody wins. > If it's not, nobody loses, the process simply gets less memory than it would > otherwise want. Odds are, if it's well behaved, it won't be the one the > kernel would have killed off anyway. > > Are you deliberately being dense? Or do you have some weird hidden agenda? No. Not at all. This you propose is, basically, pre-allocating everything. The idea of non-critical processes is flawed. Go see previous explanations on why. In fact, the system you describe will tend to run only critical processes, as non-critical processes will tend to get killed, because they are overcommitting and the critical processes never get killed. Realize that the memory can become full without any malloc being called, just by having non-critical processes use their overcommitted memory. When these non-critical processes get killed, their memory gets used by both critical and non-critical processes, reducing further the space available for non-critical processes. From time to time, critical processes will have their mallocs fail, will clamp down on memory consumption, and maybe free some memory. The freed memory will be taken by critical processes which did not have their mallocs fail, and non-critical processes. Eventually, the process which clamped down on memory usage will try a malloc again, it will succeed (eventually it will succeed, unless you get to a stable full memory state), and it will get it's business going again until another malloc fails. So, your system will eventually have almost only critical processes, unless you have enough memory to satisfy the need of all critical processes, and still have enough left for non-critical processes. Notice that, in this case, if you were not pre-allocating then no process would ever get killed, because there would be enough memory for all. (Not true in all cases, but in most enough cases.) If you only have critical processes (plus a few non-critical ones), that's equivalent of pre-allocating all memory. A number of people have told you this wastes too much resources. If you think otherwise, go do the experiments I mentioned at the beginning of this message. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Well, Windows works, using a loose definition of 'works'..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 4:27:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B961532C for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 04:27:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id NAA22683; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:24:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24733; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:24:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:24:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Brett Glass Cc: Lee Cremeans , dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990415205608.00c78d10@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Bull. Perhaps YOU are full of irrational hatred (and therefore project it), > but I am not. Bwahaha. This one has to be the joke of the year. Let's move this thread to freebsd-brett^Wjokes. > Linux's success and FreeBSD's failure could have devastating long-term > consequences in the computing world due to the promulgation of the GPL > and Richard Stallman's destructive agenda. Thus, Jordan's actions stand > to harm not only FreeBSD but the industry at large. Not full of irrational hatred? ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 4:29: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143F614E1C for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 04:29:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id NAA23361; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:26:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24745; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:26:39 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:26:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Greg Lehey Cc: Brett vorm Kopf , Lee Cremeans , dg@root.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Brett the rabid (was: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!)) In-Reply-To: <19990416131907.H27806@lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > People, it's patently obvious that no amount of reasoning with Brett > will change his mind. Why not do the obvious thing and ignore him? I would, if I could figure out how to stick him in my kill file... ... Marius To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 4:30:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EF8C14E1C for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 04:30:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id NAA23753; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:27:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA24751; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:27:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:27:50 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Brett Glass Cc: chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990415215446.0095d610@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No, Jordan's approach is not desktop-oriented. Which is a BIG mistake, > and a decision he should not be allowed to make. Why don't you just get out there and make BratBSD, then? Then you'd be in charge. .. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 8:48:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C70E15983 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:48:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA49898 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:46:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:46:12 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: SETI on FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990416084612.A49871@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The SETI@home project at Berkeley has released binaries for FreeBSD. The page address is http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/unix_cgi Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 8:50:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1946414D79 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:50:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id RAA26723; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:48:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Brett Glass Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) References: <4.2.0.32.19990414114712.00cda740@localhost> <10906.924111753@zippy.cdrom.com> <4.2.0.32.19990415110155.045695d0@localhost> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 16 Apr 1999 17:48:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: Brett Glass's message of "Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:10:14 -0600" Message-ID: Lines: 8 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: >[load of bullshit deleted] You never know when to give up, do you? Can you please *fuck* *off*? DES (way beyond tired of this all) -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 9:52:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1587715940 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:52:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.40]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA13417 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:49:21 -0400 Message-ID: <37176A74.42BA659C@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:51:01 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es,en-US,it MIME-Version: 1.0 Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) References: <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> <4.2.0.32.19990415205608.00c78d10@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I arrived late to this discussion, but since I'm getting known for being radically opposed to the GPL, and therefore Linux in general, I must say some words; If Linux is kicking, well ...it's not Jordan's fault. We all know FreeBSD is for people with extremely good taste, if people want to use Linux it's their problem, I really don't care. Jordan's work has been GREAT. Pedro. Brett Glass escribió: > At 10:43 PM 4/15/99 -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > > >All Brett sees is "Linux is beating us. I FSCKING HATE LINUX. Somethign > >Needs To Be Done." > > Bull. Perhaps YOU are full of irrational hatred (and therefore project it), > but I am not. > > I see FreeBSD's continued failure to emerge into the limelight, in > contrast with Linux's runaway success, as the result of serious problems > in public relations, promotion, and advocacy. In particular, Jordan > Hubbard's refusal to acknowledge his own shortcomings as a PR person, > as well as WHAT WORKS, are to blame. > > Linux's success and FreeBSD's failure could have devastating long-term > consequences in the computing world due to the promulgation of the GPL > and Richard Stallman's destructive agenda. Thus, Jordan's actions stand > to harm not only FreeBSD but the industry at large. > > --Brett Glass > > "You're not just e-mailing her, you're e-mailing anyone she's ever > e-mailed." > > -- Dayton Daily News Cartoonist Mike Peters on the "Melissa virus" > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 10:38:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from youknow.youwant.to (youknow.youwant.to [209.133.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB2A615970 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:38:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever (whenever.youwant.to [209.133.29.2]) by youknow.youwant.to (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id KAA31760; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:35:43 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 10:35:42 -0700 Message-ID: <000e01be882f$8d6109e0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <3717145B.6B4AB69F@newsguy.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > No. Not at all. This you propose is, basically, pre-allocating > everything. The idea of non-critical processes is flawed. Go see > previous explanations on why. In fact, the system you describe will > tend to run only critical processes, as non-critical processes will > tend to get killed, because they are overcommitting and the critical > processes never get killed. Realize that the memory can become full > without any malloc being called, just by having non-critical > processes use their overcommitted memory. When these non-critical > processes get killed, their memory gets used by both critical and > non-critical processes, reducing further the space available for > non-critical processes. From time to time, critical processes will > have their mallocs fail, will clamp down on memory consumption, and > maybe free some memory. The freed memory will be taken by critical > processes which did not have their mallocs fail, and non-critical > processes. Eventually, the process which clamped down on memory > usage will try a malloc again, it will succeed (eventually it will > succeed, unless you get to a stable full memory state), and it will > get it's business going again until another malloc fails. > > So, your system will eventually have almost only critical processes, > unless you have enough memory to satisfy the need of all critical > processes, and still have enough left for non-critical processes. > Notice that, in this case, if you were not pre-allocating then no > process would ever get killed, because there would be enough memory > for all. (Not true in all cases, but in most enough cases.) > > If you only have critical processes (plus a few non-critical ones), > that's equivalent of pre-allocating all memory. A number of people > have told you this wastes too much resources. If you think > otherwise, go do the experiments I mentioned at the beginning of > this message. Not so. As soon as the system has overcommitted by one byte, not a single 'critical' process will be able to allocate anything. In contrast, non-critical processes will continue to be able to overcommit. Since we know the system can remain stable in an overcommit situation (it does so now), there is no reason to assume that overcommitting will ever have to lead to any processes being killed. So long before critical processes can starve non-critical processes, the reverse will occur. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 11: 1:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5269415064 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:01:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id CAA22116; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:58:52 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <371779F1.7D5C28C2@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:57:05 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <000e01be882f$8d6109e0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > Not so. As soon as the system has overcommitted by one byte, not a single > 'critical' process will be able to allocate anything. In contrast, > non-critical processes will continue to be able to overcommit. Since we know > the system can remain stable in an overcommit situation (it does so now), > there is no reason to assume that overcommitting will ever have to lead to > any processes being killed. > > So long before critical processes can starve non-critical processes, the > reverse will occur. Ah, I see... you have a kind of point. You will find out, though, that no critical process will run, because the non-critical ones will long have overcommitted. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Well, Windows works, using a loose definition of 'works'..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 11: 9:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from youknow.youwant.to (youknow.youwant.to [209.133.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A37B15064 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:09:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever (whenever.youwant.to [209.133.29.2]) by youknow.youwant.to (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA31783; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:07:22 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:07:22 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be8833$f9dd1d80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <371779F1.7D5C28C2@newsguy.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > So long before critical processes can starve > non-critical processes, the > > reverse will occur. > > Ah, I see... you have a kind of point. You will find out, though, > that no critical process will run, because the non-critical ones > will long have overcommitted. There might be a demand for, for example, separate swap for critical and non-critical processes. Or there may be a wish to reserve a certain amount of swap just for critical processes, or to require overcommittment to exceed a certain amount before 'critical' processes have their allocations fail. This is a tuning question. It's easily possible to err in either direction. The point is, however, that a well-behaved process can't behave well without adequate feedback. And a fully-overcommitting kernel generally can't provide that feedback. A never-overcommitting kernel can, but unfortunately, that simply requires too much swap. Surely a reasonable compromise can be struck. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 11:32:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3599614E63 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:32:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA92462; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:28:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904161828.LAA92462@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Apr 1999 08:46:12 PDT." <19990416084612.A49871@ontario.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:28:59 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Most Cool, Now we have to find the Aliens in a FreeBSD for a permanent note in history !! > The SETI@home project at Berkeley has released binaries for FreeBSD. The > page address is > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/unix_cgi > > > Josef > > -- > Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 > jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 11:57: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B5B159D3 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 11:57:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id UAA23852 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:54:36 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 692AE8840; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:38:18 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:38:16 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: App Idea: Configuration Message-ID: <19990416193816.A40913@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199904160740.AAA89424@rah.star-gate.com> <371704EF.1B5B7265@pipeline.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <371704EF.1B5B7265@pipeline.ch>; from Andre Oppermann on Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 11:37:51AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5173 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Andre Oppermann: > Not only sendmail has patches for LDAP, qmail too. We did it! So can Postfix (while we're on MTAs :-)). BUILDING WITH LDAP SUPPORT ========================== You need to have LDAP libraries and include files installed somewhere on your system, and you need to configure the Postfix Makefiles accordingly. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #70: Sat Feb 27 09:43:08 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 12: 9: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CD3C14EBE for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:08:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA92711; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:05:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904161905.MAA92711@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Ollivier Robert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: App Idea: Configuration In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:38:16 +0200." <19990416193816.A40913@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:05:25 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cool Now lets keep the ball rolling and remind people that LDAP is not restricted to MTAs. I volunteer to write a FreeBSD LDAP Web Page to help out. What I need is specific instructions to enable LDAP for each MTA and how is LDAP used. Don't forget ALL of you are invited to participate > According to Andre Oppermann: > > Not only sendmail has patches for LDAP, qmail too. We did it! > > So can Postfix (while we're on MTAs :-)). > > BUILDING WITH LDAP SUPPORT > ========================== > > You need to have LDAP libraries and include files installed somewhere on > your system, and you need to configure the Postfix Makefiles > accordingly. > > -- > Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr > FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #70: Sat Feb 27 09:43:08 CET 1999 > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 12:50: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B2FA159D5 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:49:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id EAA27900; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 04:46:58 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37179347.D9D0FFEA@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 04:45:11 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <000001be8833$f9dd1d80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > There might be a demand for, for example, separate swap for critical and > non-critical processes. Or there may be a wish to reserve a certain amount > of swap just for critical processes, or to require overcommittment to exceed > a certain amount before 'critical' processes have their allocations fail. > > This is a tuning question. It's easily possible to err in either direction. > > The point is, however, that a well-behaved process can't behave well > without adequate feedback. And a fully-overcommitting kernel generally can't > provide that feedback. A never-overcommitting kernel can, but unfortunately, > that simply requires too much swap. Surely a reasonable compromise can be > struck. Sure. We call it limiting a process/user datasize. This solution is not more complicated than any other solution short of full pre-allocation, even if you do not believe so. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Well, Windows works, using a loose definition of 'works'..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 12:53:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from youknow.youwant.to (youknow.youwant.to [209.133.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E023114D4A for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:53:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever (whenever.youwant.to [209.133.29.2]) by youknow.youwant.to (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id MAA32138; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:50:52 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 12:50:52 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be8842$6ef48410$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <37179347.D9D0FFEA@newsguy.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Sure. We call it limiting a process/user datasize. This solution is > not more complicated than any other solution short of full > pre-allocation, even if you do not believe so. You seem to be under the impression that I am looking for a _simple_ solution. I am not. I am looking for a _good_ solution. And while process/user datasize limits are certainly part of a solution, I think I've already clearly demonstrated that they are not adequate. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 13:32:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C663E14DF0 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:32:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id FAA29624; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 05:30:16 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <37179B9E.D4434460@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 05:20:46 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <000001be8842$6ef48410$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > > Sure. We call it limiting a process/user datasize. This solution is > > not more complicated than any other solution short of full > > pre-allocation, even if you do not believe so. > > You seem to be under the impression that I am looking for a _simple_ > solution. I am not. I am looking for a _good_ solution. And while > process/user datasize limits are certainly part of a solution, I think I've > already clearly demonstrated that they are not adequate. Feel free to submit patches. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Well, Windows works, using a loose definition of 'works'..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 13:44:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from youknow.youwant.to (youknow.youwant.to [209.133.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52A321598B for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:44:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever (whenever.youwant.to [209.133.29.2]) by youknow.youwant.to (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id NAA32170; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:41:44 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 13:41:44 -0700 Message-ID: <000001be8849$8a1c4050$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <37179B9E.D4434460@newsguy.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Feel free to submit patches. It's not important enough to me. I'm more than happy to simply not recommend FreeBSD for mission-critical processes on multi-user systems. I don't have an agenda, so I have no incentive to do so. Why is it that discussions of features always degenerate into "I think that's stupid, but if you want it, then you code it"? Is there something really wrong with saying, "That's a good idea, but there are no resources to code it"? If it really is a bad idea, what's the point in submitting patches? If it's a good idea, why not state so, so that perhaps people will work on it. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 14: 7:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C700A15A0B for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:07:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA26230; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:47:13 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:47:13 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: Amancio Hasty Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: application developers [ was Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) ] In-Reply-To: <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > No one is stoping you from writing the tools needed to make FreeBSD a > > "desktop-oriented" system. Just as no one is stoping you from writing a > > FreeBSD emulator for Linux which, if I remember right, was you last > > obsession. If you feel that there are things missing from FreeBSD you need > > to go and build them. > > Actually, a better question is why are people not writing applications? > Is it because they lack the programming skills, inefficient tools, targetted > goals, etc... > > Amancio > > -- > > Amancio Hasty > hasty@star-gate.com (taking a break from catching up on everything she's 2 months behind on, this is a pet peeve :) ) I think the primary reason is lack of support by the user community. FreeBSD, being the completely free community it is, almost a pleasant anarchy, doesn't give the 'emotional support' a lot of applications developers need. I also tend to think that's why Linux has so -many- applications developers. Whenever I've posted a question to the effect "would anyone be interested in an application like (bbs, tcp terminal program, cross platform spam filter, isp billing system, etc)?" I've usually simply not gotten a response from the FreeBSD community. I'm not saying people are wrong for not encouraging me, but it makes it difficult to gauge wether there is enough interest in a project to justify spending my limited time on it. Even a simple "I'm not interested but I think others would be" or a clean "Sorry I don't think that would get used" would be helpful. Not for the developer's ego, but as a way to help them decide what projects to dump a lot of time and effort into. In contrast, for almost every project I've mentioned, I've had a lot of people from the Linux camp offer me support, including one gentleman who offered a shell account with as much storage space, cpu time, etc as I needed to develop a project under Linux. He wasn't so much interested in that particular application, as he was interested in encouraging me to develop applications for Linux. I think it's primarily just a difference in the user communities. The Linux users will encourage a developer, help test, give feedback, -just- to get them to develop for Linux. The FreeBSD community applies the old 'write it, and if we like it, we'll use it but don't bother us until then' standard. Great for people who talk about becoming involved with the FreeBSD project, bad bad way to handle people considering writing applications for it. I'm about to cancel one of my projects (bouncer) for example, simply because I have not managed to get -any- serious alpha testers, or even any feedback on it and it's either cancel it or move it to Linux, and I don't want to waste one of my machines to install Linux on. I started a FreeBSD Applications Developer's list to try to begin addressing this issue, but I'm not a mailing list expert and don't know how to 'energize' a list, draw in members, get conversations going, etc. Anyway that's my view of it, sorry for rambling... I'll get back to work now :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 14:13:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [192.139.81.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D34F153E6 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:13:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([192.139.81.180]:6151 "EHLO shattered" ident: "IDENT-NONSENSE") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id <61471-49659>; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:15:22 -0400 Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:15:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: Brett Glass , chris@calldei.com, Daniel O'Connor , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > No, Jordan's approach is not desktop-oriented. Which is a BIG mistake, > > and a decision he should not be allowed to make. > > Why don't you just get out there and make BratBSD, then? Oh $DEITY, this sounds almost like another BSD project that started with someone being kicked out... > > Then you'd be in charge. But who would follow? Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 alexp@iplink.net -=- (work) veers@disturbed.net -=- (play) Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 14:19:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop04.iname.net (pop04.iname.net [165.251.8.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57F921542E for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:18:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r15.bfm.org [208.18.213.111]) by pop04.iname.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id RAA18478 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990416161503.0092d260@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:15:03 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Applications In-Reply-To: <19990415231413.A47332@ontario.mooseriver.com> References: <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> <19990415224102.A47059@ontario.mooseriver.com> <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 23:14 15-04-1999 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: >I think the problem is a lot of FreeBSD people want to be kernel hackers and >don't want to get their hands dirty with double-entry bookkeeping, >warehouse, order-entry, or assent management systems. There is just not a >lot of glory in the hacker world for these kinds of programs. Hmmm... I have been writing applications for a long time (started programming in 1965). One of the first things I did when I got FreeBSD late last year was to write some tools. I mentioned that at one of the mailgroups, and received a lot of yawns in return. Indeed, any time I mention in any FreeBSD list that I wrote some program, I get a lot of negative replies, assuring me no one will ever need them and non-sense like that. Then I discovered freshmeat.net and announced my programs there. I received thousands of visitors from there, mostly Linuxites. I always get instant feedback from them. For example, version 2.0 of my Graphic Counter Language had some FreeBSD-specific code which made it impossible to compile under Linux. I received email from a Linux user who pointed out where exactly the problem was, and offered to test my software to make sure it compiles and runs under Linux. I have since made two or three submissions to the ports collection. I received an automated reply with a number assigned to them. That was last I heard of them (this was about a month ago). The idea behind one of these port submissions was that it was a library needed to a number of i18n tools I have developed since. These tools all need the library. But I cannot release them to the ports collection (although I find it silly to call them "ports" since I developed them on and for FreeBSD), I cannot release them because the library is still not in the ports collection, and they need the library. Meanwhile, I announced them all on freshmeat.net. They always get announced the next day, and my site is swamped by people downloading them. They use them, too, judging from the email I keep getting. So, it is rather ironic: I have developed tools for FreeBSD and am unable to submit them, while they are already being used by Linuxites all over the world. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 14:42:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAC30157DB for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 14:42:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12763; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:39:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990416153550.045b9d50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:39:47 -0600 To: Marius Bendiksen From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Cc: chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.32.19990415215446.0095d610@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:27 PM 4/16/99 +0200, Marius Bendiksen wrote: >> No, Jordan's approach is not desktop-oriented. Which is a BIG mistake, >> and a decision he should not be allowed to make. > >Why don't you just get out there and make BratBSD, then? > >Then you'd be in charge. Ironically, Jordan's desire for total control over FreeBSD -- in particular, the way it's marketed -- does parallel that of Theo de Raadt. Jordan has come close to saying that he'd rather see FreeBSD die than see it promoted with the sort of passionate advocacy it needs. We don't need splinter groups; we need to free FreeBSD from Jordan's peculiar preferences and obsessive need for control. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 15:28:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peach.ocn.ne.jp (peach.ocn.ne.jp [210.145.254.87]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE9681540B for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:28:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dcs@newsguy.com) Received: from newsguy.com by peach.ocn.ne.jp (8.9.1a/OCN) id HAA04928; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 07:25:47 +0900 (JST) Message-ID: <3717B87E.FF8B93AD@newsguy.com> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 07:23:58 +0900 From: "Daniel C. Sobral" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: pt-BR,ja MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Schwartz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: swap-related problems References: <000001be8849$8a1c4050$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Schwartz wrote: > > > Feel free to submit patches. > > It's not important enough to me. I'm more than happy to simply not > recommend FreeBSD for mission-critical processes on multi-user systems. I > don't have an agenda, so I have no incentive to do so. > > Why is it that discussions of features always degenerate into "I think > that's stupid, but if you want it, then you code it"? Is there something > really wrong with saying, "That's a good idea, but there are no resources to > code it"? > > If it really is a bad idea, what's the point in submitting patches? If it's > a good idea, why not state so, so that perhaps people will work on it. Not all discussions of feature degenerate so. The ones that go on and on and on do, so they are more visible. In this particular case, it comes down to this: the problem is a very complex one. A good solution, if one exists at all, is easily the subject of a Ph.D. thesis. Effective solutions exist. Do not run mission critical processes on machines were users cannot be trusted. Put a cap on maximum resource usage on a per-user basis to prevent mistakes they might make from bringing down the system. Give the system enough resources for it's intended use. People have said all of the above, and then, rather than repeating themselves, just gave up on this thread. Me, on the other hand, had to spent two nights crawling the web after a few things, leaving me a lot of free time between page downloads. I decided to spend this time explaining why the problem is so complex, why the effective solutions are effective, why the solutions proposed didn't solve anything. When you said you didn't want a simple solution, you wanted a good one, there were few ways I could have answered. That there are no resources it's obvious. It is a volunteer effort. The resources we have are the volunteers, who do what *they* want or what *they* need, not what other people want or need. I shouldn't have to tell you that. I could leave it at that, but I thought that would sound like saying it was a useless idea. Since it is not a useless idea, I decided to express it so: send the patches. -- Daniel C. Sobral (8-DCS) dcs@newsguy.com dcs@freebsd.org "Well, Windows works, using a loose definition of 'works'..." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 16:10:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27B5114CA5 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:10:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: from bb-b1-11a (ppp70.pm3-0.pdx.dsinw.com [207.149.41.70]) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA16604; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:06:10 -0700 () From: Rick Hamell To: Licia Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: application developers [ was Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) ] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: hamellr@dsinw.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > for people who talk about becoming involved with the FreeBSD project, bad bad > way to handle people considering writing applications for it. I'm about to > cancel one of my projects (bouncer) for example, simply because I have not > managed to get -any- serious alpha testers, or even any feedback on it and > it's either cancel it or move it to Linux, and I don't want to waste one of my > machines to install Linux on. What is bouncer? :) You have some good points though. Even being a relative newbie I see this problem, especially on the mailing lists. In fact there is someone right now complaining that he's sent 5 messages and not gotten an answer for any of them. :( I'd help... but I don't have the experience/knowledge yet to be able to do so. Heck, I'm still trying to figure out the differances between 2.2.8 and 3.1 and how it affects me...:) Perhaps part of our advocacy should be to encourage such projects? Not just encourage a growth in the user base. For me personally there are so many areas I'd like to contribute, the Sparc Project, the simplified PPP installation for other newbies, increased documentation AND pointers to that same documentation, updated CAM drivers for some of the older Adaptec cards, etc, etc, etc. I sure that y'all have a hundred other 'little' things that 'need' to be done too. Perchance getting somebody else to do the little things would get them more interested in FreeBSD, and in turn help the entire project? Rick ---- "Buckaroo, the Presidents on the line, he wants to know if everything is ok or should we nuke Russia?" "Tell him yes on one and no on two." "Was that yes to nuke Russia?" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 16:13:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from youknow.youwant.to (youknow.youwant.to [209.133.29.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7C114DC0 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:13:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever (whenever.youwant.to [209.133.29.2]) by youknow.youwant.to (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id QAA00597; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:10:59 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Daniel C. Sobral" Cc: Subject: RE: swap-related problems Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:10:58 -0700 Message-ID: <000601be885e$63713720$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <3717B87E.FF8B93AD@newsguy.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In this particular case, it comes down to this: the problem is a > very complex one. A good solution, if one exists at all, is easily > the subject of a Ph.D. thesis. Effective solutions exist. Do not run > mission critical processes on machines were users cannot be trusted. > Put a cap on maximum resource usage on a per-user basis to prevent > mistakes they might make from bringing down the system. Give the > system enough resources for it's intended use. The problem is, none of these suggested solutions, either alone or in combination can solve the actual problem. Resource limits don't help because root's processes can run amuck too and there's no sensible thing to set them to. Not running important processes on multiuser machines is the NT philosophy, not the UNIX one. Giving a system more resources doesn't help -- giving it more RAM simply pospones the problem. Giving it more swap simply allows it to run slowly. Again, what's missing is feedback. > People have said all of the above, and then, rather than repeating > themselves, just gave up on this thread. Me, on the other hand, had > to spent two nights crawling the web after a few things, leaving me > a lot of free time between page downloads. I decided to spend this > time explaining why the problem is so complex, why the effective > solutions are effective, why the solutions proposed didn't solve > anything. Why doesn't the following solve the problem: 1) A separate swap space for 'critical' processes. 2) Critical processes are never overcommitted. Instead calls like fork, mmap, and malloc fail. 3) Critical processes aren't killed when the system needs to kill processes due to overcommittment. Now, I'm not saying this is the best solution to use. I'm simply saying that it's not overly complex and solves a real problem. A response is, "If you think it's so great, code it" is not only unhelpful, it's downright rude. > When you said you didn't want a simple solution, you wanted a good > one, there were few ways I could have answered. That there are no > resources it's obvious. It is a volunteer effort. The resources we > have are the volunteers, who do what *they* want or what *they* > need, not what other people want or need. Yes, that's one of the major disadvantages of an open source effort. It's really amazing that as much gets done as does get done. I guess different people have very different ideas about what's interesting. But certainly it doesn't help to say that things shouldn't be done. It's too easy to say, "That's a bad feature, that's why FreeBSD doesn't have it", but it's ultimately discouraging to those who might help and it's very defeatist. > I shouldn't have to tell > you that. I could leave it at that, but I thought that would sound > like saying it was a useless idea. Since it is not a useless idea, I > decided to express it so: send the patches. I wish I had the time. I really do. It bothers me that our software doesn't run well on FreeBSD. But I think that's more because of a lack of good kernel threads support than anything else. Actually, it's at least in part due to 'poll' not working correctly in FreeBSD's user-space threads implementation. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 16:37:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5005B15AC6 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:37:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA94517; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:33:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904162333.QAA94517@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Licia Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: application developers In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Apr 1999 09:47:13 CDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:33:23 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On the App front , Lets start real small , how about mailing the following: Title: Author: Justification: URL/FTP: Status: Over the weekend , I will try to sort out the distribution . Lets keep rolling Boys and Gals! -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 16:42:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B26E2154C2 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:42:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA08831; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:39:43 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:39:43 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Price To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Applications In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990416161503.0092d260@mail.bfm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: # I have since made two or three submissions to the ports collection. I # received an automated reply with a number assigned to them. That was last I # heard of them (this was about a month ago). The idea behind one of these # port submissions was that it was a library needed to a number of i18n tools # I have developed since. These tools all need the library. But I cannot # release them to the ports collection (although I find it silly to call them # "ports" since I developed them on and for FreeBSD), I cannot release them # because the library is still not in the ports collection, and they need the # library. I just committed both of them, so there's no longer a need to hold off on send-pr'ing the others. I had to make minor mods to both of the ports before I committed them. Please take a look and if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. -steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 16:54: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2287314FE8 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:54:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA94707; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:49:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904162349.QAA94707@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Applications In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:15:03 CDT." <3.0.6.32.19990416161503.0092d260@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 16:49:56 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can you tell us a little bit more about your apps? Title: Author: Justification: URL/FTP: Status: Very interested in your web page counter for I forsee a need for a forum or a web page with all kinds of neat info on native freebsd apps . A native freebsd page counter would be nice to have. Also, I am thinking about sticking this app list in an ldap server which means we will be able to access the info from a variety of ways : shell scripts, cool graphic front-ends, applets, etc... Lets keep rolling Boys and Gals! -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 17:45:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BB4114C88 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:45:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r32.bfm.org [208.18.213.128]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id UAA18388; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:45:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990416192758.00796100@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 19:27:58 -0500 To: Steve Price From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Applications Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.19990416161503.0092d260@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:39 16-04-1999 -0500, Steve Price wrote: ># because the library is still not in the ports collection, and they need the ># library. > >I just committed both of them, so there's no longer a need to hold >off on send-pr'ing the others. Yes, I just got the message and thought, gee, I had just written in chat about it. What a timing! :-) >I had to make minor mods to both of >the ports before I committed them. Please take a look and if you >have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. I'll do that, and then will submit the rest of the tools sometime over the weekend. Thanks, Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 17:46:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D96414C88 for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 17:46:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.31]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA16261; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:46:36 -0400 Message-ID: <3717CC38.4CF1B824@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:48:09 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es,en-US,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Applications References: <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> <19990415224102.A47059@ontario.mooseriver.com> <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> <3.0.6.32.19990416161503.0092d260@mail.bfm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FWIW; I have had good success having my ports committed for a good reason: my ports usually cover a need that many people share. Everyone, for example, wants to be able to use their ghostscript fonts on X. I understand committers are also volunteers and I don't have any particular interest in pushing them to do something about my ports, but the applications that get committed earlier somehow represent general interest of the community. I sometimes look at freshmeat myself, but there also so much junk coming in, that I thank we don't carry all that bloat in the, already tight, CDs. I suggest that you submit the port for the utility and reference the PR number of the library for it in the new PR. No one is interested in committing a library unless it's used for something, and there are many non-committers that like to test the "fresh" ports. There are one or two libraries that I submitted sometime ago in order to build an Rlab port: nowadays I have no interest in porting Rlab, but if I had sent the complete Rlab port, it would have probably been committed. OTOH, if the port builds and work correctly don't expect much feedback :-). Pedro. "G. Adam Stanislav" escribió: > At 23:14 15-04-1999 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: > >I think the problem is a lot of FreeBSD people want to be kernel hackers and > >don't want to get their hands dirty with double-entry bookkeeping, > >warehouse, order-entry, or assent management systems. There is just not a > >lot of glory in the hacker world for these kinds of programs. > > Hmmm... I have been writing applications for a long time (started > programming in 1965). One of the first things I did when I got FreeBSD late > last year was to write some tools. I mentioned that at one of the > mailgroups, and received a lot of yawns in return. > > Indeed, any time I mention in any FreeBSD list that I wrote some program, I > get a lot of negative replies, assuring me no one will ever need them and > non-sense like that. > > Then I discovered freshmeat.net and announced my programs there. I received > thousands of visitors from there, mostly Linuxites. I always get instant > feedback from them. For example, version 2.0 of my Graphic Counter Language > had some FreeBSD-specific code which made it impossible to compile under > Linux. I received email from a Linux user who pointed out where exactly the > problem was, and offered to test my software to make sure it compiles and > runs under Linux. > > I have since made two or three submissions to the ports collection. I > received an automated reply with a number assigned to them. That was last I > heard of them (this was about a month ago). The idea behind one of these > port submissions was that it was a library needed to a number of i18n tools > I have developed since. These tools all need the library. But I cannot > release them to the ports collection (although I find it silly to call them > "ports" since I developed them on and for FreeBSD), I cannot release them > because the library is still not in the ports collection, and they need the > library. > > Meanwhile, I announced them all on freshmeat.net. They always get announced > the next day, and my site is swamped by people downloading them. They use > them, too, judging from the email I keep getting. > > So, it is rather ironic: I have developed tools for FreeBSD and am unable > to submit them, while they are already being used by Linuxites all over the > world. > > Adam > --- > Want to design your own web counter? > Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 18:48:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55A8714F8E for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:48:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r32.bfm.org [208.18.213.128]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id VAA15688; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:43:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990416204339.00924d30@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:43:39 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Applications Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3717CC38.4CF1B824@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> References: <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> <19990415224102.A47059@ontario.mooseriver.com> <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> <3.0.6.32.19990416161503.0092d260@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:48 16-04-1999 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >FWIW; > >I have had good success having my ports committed for a good reason: my ports >usually cover a need that many people share. Everyone, for example, wants to be >able to use their ghostscript fonts on X. You mean you can release fonts as ports? I have designed quite a few PostScript fonts some time ago (not lately, though), so that is something I am quite interested in. All of the fonts were hand coded (I wrote a font compiler and a font disassembler for that purpose, although right now it is on an old computer which currently I cannot take things from). >I understand committers are also >volunteers and I don't have any particular interest in pushing them to do >something about my ports, but the applications that get committed earlier somehow >represent general interest of the community. Oh, I certainly do not mean to push. I would have never mentioned it, except someone was asking why developers do not write as much software for FreeBSD as they do for Linux. It occured to me that one of the reasons might be the way we distribute software via ports. The system, naturally, takes longer than something like freshmeat. That does not mean I do not like the system: It has many advantages, and those outweigh the disadvantages (IMHO). The biggest advantage of the ports system is that it makes us think twice about releasing software before being reasonably sure that it works right. On freshmeat I have sometimes seen several versions of the same program released on the same day. Of course, to many Linux users that is probably an advantage, simply because they subscribe to a different philosophy: They often quote proudly that when they release a piece of software they receive bug fixes from all over the world within minutes. I personally prefer to torture my programs before I release them and work out the bugs myself. As I said, it is different philosophy. I am probably much older than the average Linux programmer (will be 49 in a week), so I do prefer the FreeBSD way. (Differences are good, as far as I am concerned.) > I sometimes look at freshmeat >myself, but there also so much junk coming in, that I thank we don't carry all >that bloat in the, already tight, CDs. Hehe. You could probably fill a different CD every week if you wanted to publish everything from freshmeat on it. I will not comment on much of it being junk because I choose never to decide what is junk and what is not when it comes to programming. Although I will admit that I was taught a completely different way of programming 30+ years ago than I see today. Our teacher beat it into our heads (and we were impressionable high schoolers) that after we write a program, we must go through it line by line and find the one line we can cut out. After that, we must go through the program line by line and find the one line we can cut out, and so on, until, theoretically we end up with one line of code (we were also assured that would never happen). I still work like that -- and mostly in assembly language. Some of my projects take years to finish. Sometimes, after working on a program for months, I throw it away and rewrite it from scratch. For example, I have been working on a video special effects generator since 1996. I wrote it in C++ at first - the first and last thing I did in that language (after I compiled it to assembly language and saw the overhead, I screamed). I then rewrote it in assembly language, several times, made it into a Windows DLL which I never released. Now I am rewriting it, from scratch, for FreeBSD, and will probably eventually submit it as a port. >I suggest that you submit the port for the utility and reference the PR number of >the library for it in the new PR. No one is interested in committing a library >unless it's used for something, and there are many non-committers that like to >test the "fresh" ports. There are one or two libraries that I submitted sometime >ago in order to build an Rlab port: nowadays I have no interest in porting Rlab, >but if I had sent the complete Rlab port, it would have probably been committed. OK, how? I prefer releasing the libraries separately from my programs so if someone wants to write a better program that uses the libraries (I am much better at libraries than at the programs that use them), I don't want them to have to list my program as a dependency, only the library. >OTOH, if the port builds and work correctly don't expect much feedback :-). Not immediately perhaps. But sometimes people ask you years later if you are the guy who wrote such and such thing. I created the Avatar console protocol for Opus BBS over a decade ago, wrote a DOS device driver for it, a language and a compiler, and things like that, all in assembly language. I received very little feedback at the time. I kept a very low profile for many years since, and now that I started getting active in FreeBSD lists, I started receiving messages from people asking me if I was the creator of Avatar and thanking me for it and how good it was. It was quite a surprise: I thought no one would ever remember (I mean, a decade in computer history is ancient, besides, while it was an improvement, it was nothing earth shaking) -- I'd probably have continued my low profile had I known this was going to happen. :-) Still, it's kinda neat - it makes one realize we programmers make more difference than we admit to ourselves (especially when one is "old" and remembers the days before computers, when chip was a piece of wood, hehehe). Adam P.S. Anything I post here should be read with an implied "IMHO" at the start of every sentence - I guess it does not hurt to state that explicitly every so often. --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 20:48: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E687114EEA for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:48:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA53243; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:44:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 20:44:18 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Amancio Hasty Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990416204418.B53178@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990416084612.A49871@ontario.mooseriver.com> <199904161828.LAA92462@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199904161828.LAA92462@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 11:28:59AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 11:28:59AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Most Cool, > > Now we have to find the Aliens in a FreeBSD for a permanent note in > history !! > > > > The SETI@home project at Berkeley has released binaries for FreeBSD. The > > page address is > > > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/unix_cgi I'd settle for finding intelligent life on any of the Bay Areas freeways. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 21:11: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 2035) id 3023114C45; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:11:08 -0700 (PDT) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: testing Message-Id: <19990417041108.3023114C45@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:11:08 -0700 (PDT) From: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG (Jordan K. Hubbard) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [sorry, trying to figure out why mail is broken] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 21:23:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 2035) id CFCC614C45; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:23:46 -0700 (PDT) To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Somewhat in my own defense Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-Id: <19990417042346.CFCC614C45@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:23:46 -0700 (PDT) From: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG (Jordan K. Hubbard) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [I've been trying to post this for 3 days, but it keeps vanishing into /dev/null; let's try one more time before sending a letter bomb to postmaster@freebsd.org. :-)] I've stayed out of these exchanges ever since I clearly saw that public fighting wasn't going to buy us anything, but there have been a number of points of view ascribed to me in this discussion stated as if they were "fact" rather than someone's self-serving fiction, and I just want to clear up any misconceptions people may have formed about how I really feel here in the process. First off, with respect to "passionate advocacy", I have absolutely no objection to people being passionate about FreeBSD any more so than I do about them being passionate about their wives or their professions. This is a GOOD thing, obviously, and only someone who was dead could possibly feel otherwise. What I've objected to all along, and I think quite a few of you know what I mean here, is raving advocacy with a lot of shouting and flying spit. That is to "passion" what a street riot is to "a group of people expressing their views" and really, we don't need it. As David has already said several times, we've gone to considerable lengths to ensure that FreeBSD is *not* associated in people's minds with people throwing rocks and bottles and we aim to keep it that way. Our reputation is more important than that and I've expended considerable personal effort in building bridges with the Linux community which I wouldn't care to see dynamited in the name of some short-term gain - it's just bad tactics. Second, there have been a lot of misconceptions about my stance concerning FreeBSD on the desktop or encouraging native ports to FreeBSD, largely because when I'm quoted the quoters usually strip out every bit of surrounding context and, as anyone familiar with the media knows, even Mother Theresa could be made to sound like Hitler if you were clever enough in selecting just certain parts of her public pronouncements. :-) The following, which I posted to USENET a couple of days ago, sums that up rather well so I'll just repost it here: >Date: 1999/04/14 >Forum: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc >Posted on: 1999/04/14 >Message-ID: <371576C6.9E0A2719@FreeBSD.org> >Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy >Organization: The FreeBSD Project >References: <924063216.639709173@news> Navindra Umanee wrote: [referencing my recent interview with Internet World] > Indeed! What a weird thing for Hubbard to have said... Not at all - it's called playing to your strengths. FWIW, I think Linux's desktop focus is not one which will result in long-term success if it's done to the exclusion of other, more important features which OSes like Win98 and BeOS lack. There are simply too many big guns aimed at this market and, what's more, Unix in general (and I include Linux) is coming from a long way behind and chasing a set of targets which aren't exactly standing still either when it comes to the desktop. Yes, I know about KDE and Gnome and while they're both noble efforts, they still don't really come close (for the typical computer user) to making it truly approachable. If you want empirical proof, just stick your mother or father in front of a Un*x box and see how much more productive they are with it vs Windows. Sure, there will always be somebody's grandmother who writes 1000 lines of C a day and can handle any Unix system you care to name, but that's hardly the "typical scenario" and it's definitely not what I've observed in the field. What's worse is that I can't even view a lot of web sites under Linux or *BSD because they use so damn many plug-ins that aren't even available for Netscape on *any* of its various Un*x incarnations. Or how about pointcast? You want a stock ticker-tape along the bottom of your screen, or the latest news from CNN automagically on your screen saver? Forget it. Win98, on the other hand, makes these sorts of features (which, believe it or not, a *lot* of people use) trivial to add and, again, I see a lot of my less computer literate friends using them and loving it. I don't mean to make it sound as if I'm glorifying Windows here or anything, I'm simply saying "know your enemy and don't attack his fortifications, go around - you can get killed charging machine gun nests you know! :)" Another slightly annoying thing is the extent to which I'm misquoted by some of these magazines (though this one got most things I said right, if you don't include the comment about grizzled unixheads :). For example, I'm widely quoted as saying that I actively discourage native FreeBSD ports when what I originally said was (and pay close attention) "For those companies who are contemplating ONLY a single port, or are just getting back into the Unix market and only have the initial resources for one port, I encourage them to port to Linux and get the widest possible user base." I didn't say I didn't want any FreeBSD ports at all, I said that if you're only going to do one, you might as well make it Linux and not, say, SCO or Solaris because our chances of running either binary are frankly much smaller. This is just common sense, especially when you figure that any company which does re-enter the Unix market and gets burned is not going to be a vendor which is easy to convince to try again. As far as my comment on ceding the desktop is concerned, that's another one which got somewhat overstated and is missing a lot of context. I believe the question was that if I had to choose a single focus, what would it be. I said the server, naturally, but that we'd also do what we could (given our limited resources) to make the desktop palatable also since a lot of us (including myself) do indeed use FreeBSD on the desktop. I also said that most of the desktop efforts Linux was currently engaged in, like KDE and Gnome, benefitted us just fine and that we've put a fair amount of work into encapsulating this work in the ports collection so that it's easily accessible. This is hardly the sign of a group who places no importance on the desktop whatsoever, and again the question was what our *focus* was, which is of course the server. I'm sure Linus Torvalds has this problem too and all it goes to show is that you have to take what you read in print with a grain of salt and certainly shouldn't be so naive as to assume that we've "made a pact with the devil" or any such paranoid nonsense. If you want to know my real opinion on something, try asking me. You know where to find me. :-) - Jordan Hubbard Co-founder/Release Engineer, The FreeBSD Project Walnut Creek CDROM To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 21:50:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (mail0.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7F114C2D for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:50:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-75-63.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.75.63]) by mail0.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA02211; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:47:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA07250; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:48:01 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199904170448.AAA07250@bellsouth.net> To: Brett Glass Cc: Marius Bendiksen , chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:39:47 MDT." <4.2.0.32.19990416153550.045b9d50@localhost> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 00:48:01 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > We don't need splinter groups; we need to free FreeBSD from Jordan's > peculiar preferences and obsessive need for control. Brett. Cool it a bit, eh? eh? eh? eh? Nevermind. Damnit, you've forced me to read the procmail docs. And I thought *I* was a radical idiot. Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 21:57:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 313611513F for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 21:57:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta2-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990417045645.HCBJ5752963.mta2-rme@wocker>; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:56:45 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: W Gerald Hicks Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:54:54 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199904170448.AAA07250@bellsouth.net> References: Your message of "Fri, 16 Apr 1999 15:39:47 MDT." <4.2.0.32.19990416153550.045b9d50@localhost> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990417045645.HCBJ5752963.mta2-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17 Apr 99, at 0:48, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > Nevermind. Damnit, you've forced me to read the procmail docs. You wouldn't believe the number of requests I've had for a procmail article in the past week or so. It's astounding. ;) -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.com/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 16 22:36:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6723114EFA for ; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 22:36:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA09520 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:34:22 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:34:21 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry Reply-To: Andrew Perry To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990416153550.045b9d50@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Ironically, Jordan's desire for total control over FreeBSD -- in particular, > the way it's marketed -- does parallel that of Theo de Raadt. Jordan has > come close to saying that he'd rather see FreeBSD die than see it promoted > with the sort of passionate advocacy it needs. I've followed chat for quite a while and I think that not only are you misinterpreting him but now openly putting words into his mouth that he has not said. On many occasions I have seen core members say that they will not support over zealous FreeBSD advocacy and I find myself agreeing totally with them. You have also been told that if you wish to advocate FreeBSD in this way ON YOUR OWN then you are free to go and do so. However you still appear to be slanging core members, Jordan in particular, who all have extrememly full plates and are promoting FreeBSD in the way they feel most appropriate, not only in their own opinions but in the opinions of the people in the industry who count. I dont mind you having your own opinion I just object to you ramming it down my throat. Andrew Perry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 17 1:45:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 43C5214D79 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 01:45:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.97]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3520; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:43:05 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08044; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:43:13 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:43:13 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Cc: crh@outpost.co.nz, "Daniel O'Connor" , chris@calldei.com, Brett Glass , jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, Amancio Hasty , eagle Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 16-Apr-99 eagle wrote: > On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >> > No one is stoping you from writing the tools needed to make FreeBSD a >> > "desktop-oriented" system. Just as no one is stoping you from writing >> > a FreeBSD emulator for Linux which, if I remember right, was you last >> > obsession. If you feel that there are things missing from FreeBSD you >> > need to go and build them. >> >> Actually, a better question is why are people not writing applications? >> Is it because they lack the programming skills, inefficient tools, >> targetted goals, etc... >> > i've come to the conclusion that it has to do with available > documentation, thus the PDP was started, however that will just cover > freebsd internals, not the x protocol Correct Rob, I am busy getting everything out on ASCII and have been getting involved a lot into device drivers and other lowlevel stuff in order to understand FreeBSD more to provide the documentation and make it as accurate as possible. However, I am currently busy with starting up a company and unfortunately that easts time. But I'm still there ;) To continue, I wrote to AMI with regard to their MegaRAID controllers and drivers in order to get them into FreeBSD. I hope to provide details soon. Also, I am working, alongside with Rob, on a graphical MUA which will be released under BSD style license... JFYI, --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 17 2:49:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from octopus.originative (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C45BA151C4; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 02:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by octopus with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <2RSVNTJQ>; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:45:07 +0100 Message-ID: From: paul@originative.co.uk To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Somewhat in my own defense Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:45:07 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG [mailto:jkh@FreeBSD.ORG] > Sent: 17 April 1999 05:24 > To: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG > Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Somewhat in my own defense much deleted > Another slightly annoying thing is the extent to which I'm > misquoted by > some of these magazines (though this one got most things I > said right, > if you don't include the comment about grizzled unixheads :). For > example, I'm widely quoted as saying that I actively > discourage native > FreeBSD ports when what I originally said was (and pay close > attention) > "For those companies who are contemplating ONLY a single port, or are > just getting back into the Unix market and only have the initial > resources for one port, I encourage them to port to Linux and get the > widest possible user base." I didn't say I didn't want any FreeBSD > ports at all, I said that if you're only going to do one, Jordan, I don't think anyone will dispute the effort you put into supporting the project. However, I do think there are some things you could do differently when talking to the press. Journalists like two things. 1) Ready made press releases, generally a small bit of prose that makes a single point clearly that they can more or less cut and paste into their publication without too much work. Journalists like to minimise their work (who doesn't). 2) Overly stated answers that can be pruned down a lot during editing to suit the slant that the author wants to take in the article. It's point 2 that you fall foul of and that's where the criticisms from within the group stem from. You just shouldn't say things like the above. A single one line response such as "yes we'd love companies to port their products to FreeBSD" should be the correct reply. It can't be turned around into anything else but it doesn't in any way burn bridges with other groups. Similarly, "our main strength is the server market" is a good quote, there's no reason to say "we've conceded the desktop market to Microsoft", that's a negative point not a positive one and can easily be turned around out of context in an article. I've done a lot of PR in my life and the above two points were good pieces of advice handed down to me from people who had a lot more experience and certainly they've borne true for me. Paul Richards Originative Solutions Ltd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 17 7: 8:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [192.139.81.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B562014E02 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 07:08:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([192.139.81.180]:50951 "EHLO shattered" ident: "IDENT-NONSENSE") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id <61471-49661>; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:09:50 -0400 Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:09:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: yet more disasterous Brett-PR Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A friend of mine pointed me to this: http://www.upside.com/texis/mvm/down_the_toilet?id=3714d4820 You know, it's funny - I've yet to find a negative article about FreeBSD... Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 alexp@iplink.net -=- (work) veers@disturbed.net -=- (play) Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 17 9: 8:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7C611515D for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:07:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.32]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA21794; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:04:48 -0400 Message-ID: <3718B184.8C3396C4@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:06:29 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es,en-US,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Applications References: <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> <19990415224102.A47059@ontario.mooseriver.com> <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> <3.0.6.32.19990416161503.0092d260@mail.bfm.org> <3.0.6.32.19990416204339.00924d30@mail.bfm.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "G. Adam Stanislav" escribió: > > You mean you can release fonts as ports? I have designed quite a few > PostScript fonts some time ago (not lately, though), so that is something I > am quite interested in. All of the fonts were hand coded (I wrote a font > compiler and a font disassembler for that purpose, although right now it is > on an old computer which currently I cannot take things from). > Take a look at the gsfonts port, these are type1 postscript fonts, so I used type1inst as a port dependency to generate the appropiate files. I never figured out how to add the font to the XF86Config line from the port (port author are lazy by definition), and the fonts want to run unscaled on certain low resolutions, but the GIMP and netscape are happy. > > I will not comment on much of it being junk because I choose never to > decide what is junk and what is not when it comes to programming. Although > I will admit that I was taught a completely different way of programming > 30+ years ago than I see today. Our teacher beat it into our heads (and we > were impressionable high schoolers) that after we write a program, we must > go through it line by line and find the one line we can cut out. After > that, we must go through the program line by line and find the one line we > can cut out, and so on, until, theoretically we end up with one line of > code (we were also assured that would never happen). > On school I also used to take quite a time to ensure less instructions, these were Pascal prgrams, but while someone found took the time write 2000 lines, I got it in 200. > > OK, how? I prefer releasing the libraries separately from my programs so if > someone wants to write a better program that uses the libraries (I am much > better at libraries than at the programs that use them), I don't want them > to have to list my program as a dependency, only the library. > You can use libraries as either build or runtime dependencies, there are many examples on the ports tree. Take a look, for example, at URT (ports/graphics). > > >OTOH, if the port builds and work correctly don't expect much feedback :-). > > Not immediately perhaps. But sometimes people ask you years later if you > are the guy who wrote such and such thing. I created the Avatar console > protocol for Opus BBS over a decade ago, wrote a DOS device driver for it, Maybe you could give FreeBSD's console a hand...I've always wanted to see module that supports those old BBS extensions (RIP, ANSI music)...probably no one else would appreciate it but...cool nevertheless :-) > > a language and a compiler, and things like that, all in assembly language. > I received very little feedback at the time. I kept a very low profile for > many years since, and now that I started getting active in FreeBSD lists, I > started receiving messages from people asking me if I was the creator of > Avatar and thanking me for it and how good it was. It was quite a surprise: > I thought no one would ever remember (I mean, a decade in computer history > is ancient, besides, while it was an improvement, it was nothing earth > shaking) -- I'd probably have continued my low profile had I known this was > going to happen. :-) Still, it's kinda neat - it makes one realize we > programmers make more difference than we admit to ourselves (especially > when one is "old" and remembers the days before computers, when chip was a > piece of wood, hehehe). > The time of the wooden computers and the iron programmers...I was just a baby in those days, but I heard the leyend ;-). > > Adam > > P.S. Anything I post here should be read with an implied "IMHO" at the > start of every sentence - I guess it does not hurt to state that explicitly > every so often. > --- > Want to design your own web counter? > Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 17 9:59:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0878F1511B for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 09:59:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r41.bfm.org [208.18.213.137]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id MAA11206; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:58:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990417115545.00915770@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 11:55:45 -0500 To: Amancio Hasty From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Applications Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199904162349.QAA94707@rah.star-gate.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:49 16-04-1999 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >Very interested in your web page counter for I forsee a need for a forum >or a web page with all kinds of neat info on native freebsd apps . A native >freebsd page counter would be nice to have. It is not a counter per se but a counter language. It allows you to design your own original counters. You provide gif files with images of the digits, and it will assemble the counter for you. You can also provide a background image, a head and a tail. The images can all be in separate files, in one file, or linked directly into the executable, or any combination of that. The counter can be horizontal or vertical, it can have a frame or not have one. If you use a background image, you can control the position of the digit layer as related to the background layer. You can kern the digits, align them along the center, bottom, or top (or left and right in vertical counters). It can be used to produce text counters instead of graphic ones; as well as display current date and time in any time zone, again either as an image or as text. You can set conditions as to when not to increase the count (e.g., I do not increase my counters when I log onto my web site). It can fork another program in the background which can read the count from an environment variable. It can be used to redirect the user to a different web page (or web site anywhere), and keep track of how many times that happened. It can keep track of visitors on a daily, weekly, monthly, or annual basis. Things like that. And, of course, you can create as many different counters with it as you want. You just write several lines of a script. You then execute the script from your web page. The count is inside the script (GCL will overwrite the script when it increases the counter), so you only need one file per counter (aside from the gifs, of course), which is plain text. The funniest thing about it is that I wrote it because I have a CGI tutorial on my web site, and wanted to write a simple counter program simply to teach people how they can write their own. But I kept adding features to it, and version 1.0 was more than 4,000 lines of C code (it took a week to write). Current version (2.10) has more than 5,000 lines of code. So it became one of those "we work hard so you don't have to" things. :-) There is only one thing I can think of adding in a future version: Changing it to BCD-style math internally. Right now it uses a 32-bit unsigned integer for its math, so it is limited to slightly more than 4 billion counts. That should not be a problem for most web sites, but I would like to remove that limitation. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 17 12:51:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D312014BD4 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:51:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r45.bfm.org [208.18.213.141]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id PAA22615; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 15:48:30 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990417144807.0091c100@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:48:07 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Applications Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3718B184.8C3396C4@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> References: <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> <19990415224102.A47059@ontario.mooseriver.com> <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> <3.0.6.32.19990416161503.0092d260@mail.bfm.org> <3.0.6.32.19990416204339.00924d30@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:06 17-04-1999 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Take a look at the gsfonts port, these are type1 postscript fonts, so I used >type1inst as a port dependency to generate the appropiate files. Thanks, done. I was postponing the installation of ghostscript (which I have used under Windows a lot) until I can get my X11 to work without locking up (I only have 8 Meg of RAM, and after April 15 $0 available - April 15 being the tax day in the US). But I got your fonts and installed ghostscript as well, so I can study your Makefile now. Some day I'll have to write a book on how to create ports. :-) But first I have to learn all its nuances. > I never figured >out how to add the font to the XF86Config line from the port (port author are lazy >by definition), and the fonts want to run unscaled on certain low resolutions, but >the GIMP and netscape are happy. I wouldn't know. As I said, my X11 is installed but I have problems with it, so I have not done much work in that area yet. But it is definitely on my list. >On school I also used to take quite a time to ensure less instructions, these were >Pascal prgrams, but while someone found took the time write 2000 lines, I got it >in 200. Excellent! Pruning is one of the most important stages of programming. Perhaps the most important one. Anyone can write a program, but if several programmers (or software companies) produce similar programs, the one that is the smallest and fastest will be the successful one. Uncle Bill should remember that! The success of FreeBSD and Linux (no flames pelase) over Windows is not so much because of the cost in dollars, but because Windows is so overblown while the Unices are lean. Just my opinion, of course. :-) >You can use libraries as either build or runtime dependencies, there are many >examples on the ports tree. Take a look, for example, at URT (ports/graphics). Thanks, I'll have to do that. My main problem seems to be that unless I have the library as a separate port, the linker will not know the library exists since it is ldconfiged in the post-install phase. So, the only way I know how to do it is by having the library as a separate port built as a build dependency before the main program is installed. There is another reason why I wanted libutf-8 as a separate port (and, yes, it's there as of today, in ports/converters): It is a library of conversion routines between 16- and 31-bit Unicode and the UTF-8 encoding. Since UTF-8 support is now mandated for any new web software, it seemed to make sense to have the library available separately for anyone who writes web software. It also made sense to release it under the BSD-style licence so it can be used both non-commercialy and commercialy. The internationalization of the web is very important to me: I often create web pages that cannot fit into any one ISO-8859 standard. I am a polyglot, and feel quite limited and frustrated when I cannot express myself without various diacritics. :-) >Maybe you could give FreeBSD's console a hand...I've always wanted to see module >that supports those old BBS extensions (RIP, ANSI music)...probably no one else >would appreciate it but...cool nevertheless :-) Hehe. The thought has occured to me. I just wish each day had 48 hours and I did not have to go to work to earn my keep. Then, there is the problem, I do not know anything about the FBSD console. If at least I knew which source code files to study first. If I knew where to begin on that, adding Avatar support should not be that hard. After all, I've done it before under DOS. Also, I am not sure it would be matter of too big a priority these days when everyone seems to be using X11. I think my time would be better spent working in that area. >The time of the wooden computers and the iron programmers...I was just a baby in >those days, but I heard the leyend ;-). Hehe. The wooden computers were a little bit before my time. We used plastic ones when I was in high school (they were called slide rules). And, of course, we used those huge things that we fed with punch cards and that had a lot of electron tubes inside. Except, they did not fit on the desktop, and no student could ever afford one anyway. So, the plastic ones had definite advantages. :-) Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 17 13:59:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7611B14D79 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:57:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id NAA61251; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:51:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 13:51:25 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Dave Rossow Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990417135125.B60711@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990416204418.B53178@ontario.mooseriver.com> <001301be890e$b4401a80$05c809c0@versa> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <001301be890e$b4401a80$05c809c0@versa>; from Dave Rossow on Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 01:13:05PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 01:13:05PM -0700, Dave Rossow wrote: > Anybody know how CPU intensive the SETI app is? I love to run it on > one of my servers, but not if it eats up my CPU. I would rather set > it up by itself on an old clunker hanging off my network. last pid: 61239; load averages: 1.00, 1.00, 1.00 up 7+19:20:47 13:49:28 65 processes: 3 running, 62 sleeping CPU states: 8.9% user, 86.0% nice, 2.7% system, 2.3% interrupt, 0.0% idle Mem: 84M Active, 12M Inact, 18M Wired, 5804K Cache, 8340K Buf, 3520K Free Swap: 256M Total, 30M Used, 226M Free, 12% Inuse PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND 49801 jgrosch 92 1 15036K 14532K RUN 25.9H 91.41% 91.41% setiathome 266 jgrosch 2 0 29284K 25564K select 826:44 4.30% 4.30% XF86_SVGA 278 jgrosch 2 0 4712K 2732K select 1:14 0.68% 0.68% mwm 61239 jgrosch 2 0 5684K 4760K select 0:01 0.54% 0.44% emacs 370 jgrosch 2 0 1688K 544K select 0:09 0.05% 0.05% rxvt 49712 jgrosch 2 0 37728K 24656K select 4:02 0.00% 0.00% netscape 279 jgrosch 2 0 2112K 908K select 2:04 0.00% 0.00% xclock 97 root 2 -12 1048K 512K RUN 1:13 0.00% 0.00% xntpd 118 root 2 0 296K 0K nfsd 0:43 0.00% 0.00% nfsd 60499 jgrosch 2 0 4088K 3156K select 0:42 0.00% 0.00% xmcd 15964 jgrosch 2 0 1692K 544K select 0:38 0.00% 0.00% rxvt Any questions ? Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 17 14: 9:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop03.globecomm.net (pop03.globecomm.net [206.253.130.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C6B14FAA for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:09:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r40.bfm.org [208.18.213.136]) by pop03.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id RAA25116; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 17:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990417160548.009243e0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 16:05:48 -0500 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: Applications Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3718B184.8C3396C4@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> References: <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> <19990415224102.A47059@ontario.mooseriver.com> <199904160601.XAA88836@rah.star-gate.com> <3.0.6.32.19990416161503.0092d260@mail.bfm.org> <3.0.6.32.19990416204339.00924d30@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:06 17-04-1999 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >examples on the ports tree. Take a look, for example, at URT (ports/graphics). Aha! Thanks! I was under the impression you could only have one distribution file per port. You have just saved me a lot of work: Now I can create just one port for all the i18n tools. Mui obligado, Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 17 14:38:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEBF9150B6 for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:38:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA04868; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:35:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904172135.OAA04868@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Alex Perel Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: yet more disasterous Brett-PR In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 17 Apr 1999 10:09:50 EDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 14:35:04 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The upside artice mentions about the problem of letting people know that FreeBSD was used to create some of the special effects in the Movie Matrix. What follows are a few humble suggestions: o Perhaps if an icon is added in the front page of www.freebsd.org which points to an area where people can download the Matrix Splash Screen also the Matrix Movie Trailer . o How about a creating a CD Jewel box cover showing off the Matrix Splash Screen for the next release of FreeBSD. I wouldn't mind having a cool Matrix poster or mug. Amancio > A friend of mine pointed me to this: > > http://www.upside.com/texis/mvm/down_the_toilet?id=3714d4820 > > You know, it's funny - I've yet to find a negative article about FreeBSD... > > > Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 > alexp@iplink.net -=- (work) > veers@disturbed.net -=- (play) > > Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD > == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 17 18:26:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 2EFC414EE9; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:26:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com Cc: funny@cdrom.com, chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <60325.924021314@zippy.cdrom.com> (jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: You find the oddest things when you netsearch for your own name... Message-Id: <19990418012635.2EFC414EE9@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 18:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > learn a little more about my strange and sordid past. :-) > > http://people.qualcomm.com/ppomes/Articles/cs-guns.html > i have always found it very difficult to obtain green tracers for the m16a1. the advantage of having the "right" color tracer is considerable. thats the beauty of the double clip holder, once can quickly switch from red to green tracers and back as needed. much better tahn giving away your position at night cause the tracers are the wrong color. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 17 20:30:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7105B14BCC for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 20:30:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA27129; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:28:13 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:28:13 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Dan Langille Cc: W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-Reply-To: <19990417045645.HCBJ5752963.mta2-rme@wocker> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Dan Langille wrote: > > Nevermind. Damnit, you've forced me to read the procmail docs. > > You wouldn't believe the number of requests I've had for a procmail > article in the past week or so. It's astounding. ;) That one's easy. :) :0 * ^From:.* Brett Glass /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 17 22:13: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EC7F150AB for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 22:12:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990418051209.LSTN5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:12:09 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: jack Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:10:33 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990417045645.HCBJ5752963.mta2-rme@wocker> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990418051209.LSTN5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 17 Apr 99, at 23:28, jack wrote: > Today Dan Langille wrote: > > > > Nevermind. Damnit, you've forced me to read the procmail docs. > > > > You wouldn't believe the number of requests I've had for a procmail > > article in the past week or so. It's astounding. ;) > > That one's easy. :) > > :0 > * ^From:.* Brett Glass > /dev/null neah! I meant people were asking me for articles on how to install and configure procmail... -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 2:21:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09CC14D98 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 02:21:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA01202; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 02:18:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Peter Wemm , Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: cvs commit: www/en/internal photos.sgml In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:44:46 +0930." <19990418184446.V37994@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 02:18:41 -0700 Message-ID: <1200.924427121@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Redirected to -chat from cvs-all; I'm not sure this has a lot to do with commit log messages at this point :-)] > That was later. Take a look at the photos > (http://www.lemis.com/grog/Images/AUUG-party-12.jpeg and > http://www.lemis.com/grog/Images/AUUG-party-19.jpeg). Hmmm. Balloons on the head, eh? Boy, you aussies really know how to party when you get drunk - over on this side of the Atlantic it would be a lampshade. :-) :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 3:52:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from crap.31337.net (node1484.a2000.nl [62.108.20.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63F0414D98 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 03:51:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alexlh@funk.org) Received: from funk.org (p [194.109.86.229]) by crap.31337.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA13940; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:50:01 GMT (envelope-from alexlh@funk.org) Message-ID: <3719B8A7.7FFC38AE@funk.org> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:49:11 +0200 From: Alex Le Heux X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Coleman , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Real Quick Newsletter March & April 1999 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Nokia VPN 200 Series Runs FreeBSD > http://www.iprg.nokia.com/products/vpn200/ Nice that it runs FreeBSD, just too bad that it doesn't do strong encryption. Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 4:16:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D1EF151F1 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 04:16:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA11949; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:43:40 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id UAA40514; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:43:12 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990418204312.C40482@lemis.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 20:43:12 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Peter Wemm , Mark Murray , chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Wemm vs. Stallman (was: cvs commit: www/en/internal photos.sgml) References: <19990418184446.V37994@lemis.com> <1200.924427121@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <1200.924427121@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 02:18:41AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sunday, 18 April 1999 at 2:18:41 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > [Redirected to -chat from cvs-all; I'm not sure this has a lot to do > with commit log messages at this point :-)] > >> That was later. Take a look at the photos >> (http://www.lemis.com/grog/Images/AUUG-party-12.jpeg and >> http://www.lemis.com/grog/Images/AUUG-party-19.jpeg). > > Hmmm. Balloons on the head, eh? Boy, you aussies really know how to > party when you get drunk - over on this side of the Atlantic it would > be a lampshade. :-) :-) Yes, we've always been upset about the lack of quality in US boozeups. Gr[eo]g -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 4:28:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D519214E01 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 04:28:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA36206; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 04:24:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904181124.EAA36206@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Alex Le Heux Cc: Chris Coleman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Real Quick Newsletter March & April 1999 In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:49:11 +0200." <3719B8A7.7FFC38AE@funk.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 04:24:23 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Where does it say in the web page that it runs FreeBSD? Tnks! Amancio > > > Nokia VPN 200 Series Runs FreeBSD > > http://www.iprg.nokia.com/products/vpn200/ > > Nice that it runs FreeBSD, just too bad that it doesn't do strong > encryption. > > Alex > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 6: 6:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5893114DEA for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 06:06:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip124.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.124]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D0D737079; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:04:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA37763; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 08:04:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 08:04:29 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Brett Glass Cc: Marius Bendiksen , chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Message-ID: <19990418080429.A37740@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <4.2.0.32.19990415215446.0095d610@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990416153550.045b9d50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990416153550.045b9d50@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 03:39:47PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 16, 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:27 PM 4/16/99 +0200, Marius Bendiksen wrote: > >> No, Jordan's approach is not desktop-oriented. Which is a BIG mistake, > >> and a decision he should not be allowed to make. > > > >Why don't you just get out there and make BratBSD, then? > > > >Then you'd be in charge. > > Ironically, Jordan's desire for total control over FreeBSD -- in particular, > the way it's marketed -- does parallel that of Theo de Raadt. Jordan has > come close to saying that he'd rather see FreeBSD die than see it promoted > with the sort of passionate advocacy it needs. I don't particularly like your irrational, extremist ways of convincing people, or expressing yourself. I'm new to -chat and -advocacy, but I would imagine that your ideas would be more accepted, perhaps even acted upon, if you didn't act the way you do. -Chris -- Chris Costello Bad command or file name. Go stand in the corner. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 6:39:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D989B151BC for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 06:39:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-034.thuntek.net [207.66.52.34]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA14533; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:37:04 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3719DFF0.DD15987@thuntek.net> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:36:48 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Cc: Dave Rossow , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD References: <19990416204418.B53178@ontario.mooseriver.com> <001301be890e$b4401a80$05c809c0@versa> <19990417135125.B60711@ontario.mooseriver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 01:13:05PM -0700, Dave Rossow wrote: > > Anybody know how CPU intensive the SETI app is? I love to run it on [snip] > CPU states: 8.9% user, 86.0% nice, 2.7% system, 2.3% interrupt, 0.0% idle > Mem: 84M Active, 12M Inact, 18M Wired, 5804K Cache, 8340K Buf, 3520K Free > Swap: 256M Total, 30M Used, 226M Free, 12% Inuse > > PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND > 49801 jgrosch 92 1 15036K 14532K RUN 25.9H 91.41% 91.41% setiathome > Any questions ? > > Josef > > -- In short, the SETI program will use everything that's left over, same with the RC5 client. You can set your 'niceness' to minimize its effect on your system. -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 7: 3:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 0) id C83F7153AD; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:03:13 -0700 (PDT) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Somewhat in my own defense... Date: Fri, 16 Apr 1999 18:19:18 -0700 From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've stayed out of these exchanges ever since I clearly saw that public fighting wasn't going to buy us anything, but there have been a number of points of view ascribed to me in this discussion stated as if they were "fact" rather than someone's self-serving fiction, and I just want to clear up any misconceptions people may have formed about how I really feel here in the process. First off, with respect to "passionate advocacy", I have absolutely no objection to people being passionate about FreeBSD any more so than I do about them being passionate about their wives or their professions. This is a GOOD thing, obviously, and only someone who was dead could possibly feel otherwise. What I've objected to all along, and I think quite a few of you know what I mean here, is raving advocacy with a lot of shouting and flying spit. That is to "passion" what a street riot is to "a group of people expressing their views" and really, we don't need it. As David has already said several times, we've gone to considerable lengths to ensure that FreeBSD is *not* associated in people's minds with people throwing rocks and bottles and we aim to keep it that way. Our reputation is more important than that and I've expended considerable personal effort in building bridges with the Linux community which I wouldn't care to see dynamited in the name of some short-term gain - it's just bad tactics. Second, there have been a lot of misconceptions about my stance concerning FreeBSD on the desktop or encouraging native ports to FreeBSD, largely because when I'm quoted the quoters usually strip out every bit of surrounding context and, as anyone familiar with the media knows, even Mother Theresa could be made to sound like Hitler if you were clever enough in selecting just certain parts of her public pronouncements. :-) The following, which I posted to USENET a couple of days ago, sums that up rather well so I'll just repost it here: Date: 1999/04/14 Forum: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc Posted on: 1999/04/14 Message-ID: <371576C6.9E0A2719@FreeBSD.org> Newsgroups: comp.unix.bsd.freebsd.misc,comp.os.linux.advocacy Organization: The FreeBSD Project References: <924063216.639709173@news> Navindra Umanee wrote: [referencing my interview with Internet World] > Indeed! What a weird thing for Hubbard to have said... Not at all - it's called playing to your strengths. FWIW, I think Linux's desktop focus is not one which will result in long-term success if it's done to the exclusion of other, more important features which OSes like Win98 and BeOS lack. There are simply too many big guns aimed at this market and, what's more, Unix in general (and I include Linux) is coming from a long way behind and chasing a set of targets which aren't exactly standing still either when it comes to the desktop. Yes, I know about KDE and Gnome and while they're both noble efforts, they still don't really come close (for the typical computer user) to making it truly approachable. If you want empirical proof, just stick your mother or father in front of a Un*x box and see how much more productive they are with it vs Windows. Sure, there will always be somebody's grandmother who writes 1000 lines of C a day and can handle any Unix system you care to name, but that's hardly the "typical scenario" and it's definitely not what I've observed in the field. What's worse is that I can't even view a lot of web sites under Linux or *BSD because they use so damn many plug-ins that aren't even available for Netscape on *any* of its various Un*x incarnations. Or how about pointcast? You want a stock ticker-tape along the bottom of your screen, or the latest news from CNN automagically on your screen saver? Forget it. Win98, on the other hand, makes these sorts of features (which, believe it or not, a *lot* of people use) trivial to add and, again, I see a lot of my less computer literate friends using them and loving it. I don't mean to make it sound as if I'm glorifying Windows here or anything, I'm simply saying "know your enemy and don't attack his fortifications, go around - you can get killed charging machine gun nests you know! :)" Another slightly annoying thing is the extent to which I'm misquoted by some of these magazines (though this one got most things I said right, if you don't include the comment about grizzled unixheads :). For example, I'm widely quoted as saying that I actively discourage native FreeBSD ports when what I originally said was (and pay close attention) "For those companies who are contemplating ONLY a single port, or are just getting back into the Unix market and only have the initial resources for one port, I encourage them to port to Linux and get the widest possible user base." I didn't say I didn't want any FreeBSD ports at all, I said that if you're only going to do one, you might as well make it Linux and not, say, SCO or Solaris because our chances of running either binary are frankly much smaller. This is just common sense, especially when you figure that any company which does re-enter the Unix market and gets burned is not going to be a vendor which is easy to convince to try again. As far as my comment on ceding the desktop is concerned, that's another one which got somewhat overstated and is missing a lot of context. I believe the question was that if I had to choose a single focus, what would it be. I said the server, naturally, but that we'd also do what we could (given our limited resources) to make the desktop palatable also since a lot of us (including myself) do indeed use FreeBSD on the desktop. I also said that most of the desktop efforts Linux was currently engaged in, like KDE and Gnome, benefitted us just fine and that we've put a fair amount of work into encapsulating this work in the ports collection so that it's easily accessible. This is hardly the sign of a group who places no importance on the desktop whatsoever, and again the question was what our *focus* was, which is of course the server. I'm sure Linus Torvalds has this problem too and all it goes to show is that you have to take what you read in print with a grain of salt and certainly shouldn't be so naive as to assume that we've "made a pact with the devil" or any such paranoid nonsense. If you want to know my real opinion on something, try asking me. You know where to find me. :-) -- - Jordan Hubbard Co-founder/Release Manager, The FreeBSD Project Walnut Creek CDROM To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 7:11: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 0E6FB15478; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:11:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990417042346.CFCC614C45@hub.freebsd.org> (jkh@FreeBSD.ORG) Subject: Re: Somewhat in my own defense Message-Id: <19990418141104.0E6FB15478@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > [I've been trying to post this for 3 days, but it keeps vanishing into > /dev/null; let's try one more time before sending a letter bomb to > postmaster@freebsd.org. :-)] > > I've stayed out of these exchanges ever since I clearly saw that > public fighting wasn't going to buy us anything, but there have been a > number of points of view ascribed to me in this discussion stated as > if they were "fact" rather than someone's self-serving fiction, and I > just want to clear up any misconceptions people may have formed about > how I really feel here in the process. [snip] Jordan hit our spam filters. Two of his emails were diverted from the lists to the mailman mailbox. Hopefully those who rant about Jordan being "special" may now understand that he too is subject to the same spam filters as the rest of us ;) Unfortunately, while catching up on my mail, I read Jordan's impassioned email to me asking why these two messages never reached the lists and resent them after modifing the spam filter slightly (the same spam filters apply to all of us, including Jordan). So you will receive two copies fo the messages. ;( jmb -- Jonathan M. Bresler FreeBSD Core Team, Postmaster jmb@FreeBSD.ORG FreeBSD--The Power to Serve JMB193 http://www.freebsd.org/ PGP 2.6.2 Fingerprint: 31 57 41 56 06 C1 40 13 C5 1C E3 E5 DC 62 0E FB To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 7:11:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14742154E2 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:11:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id QAA71200; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 16:08:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: jack , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) References: <19990417045645.HCBJ5752963.mta2-rme@wocker> <19990418051209.LSTN5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 18 Apr 1999 16:08:43 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Dan Langille"'s message of "Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:10:33 +1200" Message-ID: Lines: 22 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Dan Langille" writes: > On 17 Apr 99, at 23:28, jack wrote: > > Today Dan Langille wrote: > > > > Nevermind. Damnit, you've forced me to read the procmail docs. > > > You wouldn't believe the number of requests I've had for a procmail > > > article in the past week or so. It's astounding. ;) > > That one's easy. :) > > > > :0 > > * ^From:.* Brett Glass > > /dev/null > neah! I meant people were asking me for articles on how to install and > configure procmail... That one's even easier: # cd /usr/ports/mail/procmail # make install clean DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 7:21:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A25FE14D03 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:21:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02235 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:18:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Repostings. Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:18:51 -0700 Message-ID: <2233.924445131@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sorry for the repost, but our postmaster just woke back up and found the previous ones that had been trapped by an overly-aggressive spam filter at freebsd.org and gated them on through. Just whack delete on the latest copies - there's nothing new there. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 7:24:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8189C14C13; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:24:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02280; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:21:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: jkh@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Somewhat in my own defense In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:11:04 PDT." <19990418141104.0E6FB15478@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 07:21:49 -0700 Message-ID: <2278.924445309@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Unfortunately, while catching up on my mail, I read Jordan's > impassioned email to me asking why these two messages never reached > the lists and resent them after modifing the spam filter slightly > (the same spam filters apply to all of us, including Jordan). So you > will receive two copies fo the messages. ;( Not to worry, Jonathan, and let me just say that I appreciate that you've put the time and effort into making sure that we have any spam protection at all. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 9: 8:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 485FA154F4 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:08:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA22478; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:05:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA06557; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:05:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3719DFF0.DD15987@thuntek.net> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:05:11 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Donald Wilde Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dave Rossow , jgrosch@mooseriver.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18-Apr-99 Donald Wilde wrote: > Josef Grosch wrote: >> >> On Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 01:13:05PM -0700, Dave Rossow wrote: >> > Anybody know how CPU intensive the SETI app is? I love to run it on > > [snip] >> CPU states: 8.9% user, 86.0% nice, 2.7% system, 2.3% interrupt, 0.0% >> idle >> Mem: 84M Active, 12M Inact, 18M Wired, 5804K Cache, 8340K Buf, 3520K Free >> Swap: 256M Total, 30M Used, 226M Free, 12% Inuse >> >> PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND >> 49801 jgrosch 92 1 15036K 14532K RUN 25.9H 91.41% 91.41% setiathome > >> Any questions ? >> >> Josef >> >> -- > In short, the SETI program will use everything that's left over, same > with the RC5 client. You can set your 'niceness' to minimize its effect > on your system. I asssume that if you set it to run at an idle priority ( man idprio ) it has virtually no impact on the system. OTOH, if you run it at a niceness of 20, it can still have some impact because it always runs at least a little. With idprio it seems to only run when the system is truly idle. Granted, my experience is with the RC5 client, but the concepts should be the same for seti@home as well. > -- > Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" > Wilde Media > 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 > Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 9:24:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nostrum.com (mail.nostrum.com [206.28.8.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53E0B1507F; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:24:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pckizer@nostrum.com) Received: (from pckizer@localhost) by mail.nostrum.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id LAA25698; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:22:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199904181622.LAA25698@mail.nostrum.com> From: Philip Kizer To: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? X-Reposting-Policy: redistribute only with permission In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 13 Apr 1999 00:49:49 PDT." <58590.923989789@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:22:02 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >"Movie FX company chooses FreeBSD for overall reliability" > >Then in the article you can have a paragraph saying how Linux was >evaluated and FreeBSD chosen instead, even though the renderman binary >was a Linux one. Even if it just states reasons of personal >preference for this, it's fine. Just so long as it's not in the >headline or makes claims that Linux is somehow less reliable in >general (stating a preference is not the same as making bold claims), >we're fine. Is there a press release yet for that one to which we can point people? I'm mainly asking in relation to the latest User Friendly...I was about to pen a quick note to illiad, but was hoping for some "official" information: http://www.userfriendly.org/cartoons/archives/99apr/19990418.html -philip -- AKA: Philip Kizer Texas A&M CIS Operating Systems Group, Unix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 9:45:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from david.siemens.de (david.siemens.de [192.35.17.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A070154E5 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:45:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de) X-Envelope-Sender-Is: andre.albsmeier@mchp.siemens.de (at relayer david.siemens.de) Received: from mail2.siemens.de (mail2.siemens.de [139.25.208.14]) by david.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA07174 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:43:51 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from curry.mchp.siemens.de (curry.mchp.siemens.de [146.180.31.23]) by mail2.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA20074 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:43:12 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by curry.mchp.siemens.de (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA27476 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:43:13 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 18:43:12 +0200 From: Andre Albsmeier To: John Baldwin Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dave Rossow , jgrosch@mooseriver.com Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990418184312.A98865@internal> References: <3719DFF0.DD15987@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from John Baldwin on Sun, Apr 18, 1999 at 12:05:11PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 18-Apr-1999 at 12:05:11 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 18-Apr-99 Donald Wilde wrote: > > Josef Grosch wrote: > >> > >> On Sat, Apr 17, 1999 at 01:13:05PM -0700, Dave Rossow wrote: > >> > Anybody know how CPU intensive the SETI app is? I love to run it on > > > > [snip] > >> CPU states: 8.9% user, 86.0% nice, 2.7% system, 2.3% interrupt, 0.0% > >> idle > >> Mem: 84M Active, 12M Inact, 18M Wired, 5804K Cache, 8340K Buf, 3520K Free > >> Swap: 256M Total, 30M Used, 226M Free, 12% Inuse > >> > >> PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND > >> 49801 jgrosch 92 1 15036K 14532K RUN 25.9H 91.41% 91.41% setiathome > > > >> Any questions ? > >> > >> Josef > >> > >> -- > > In short, the SETI program will use everything that's left over, same > > with the RC5 client. You can set your 'niceness' to minimize its effect > > on your system. > > I asssume that if you set it to run at an idle priority ( man idprio ) it has > virtually no impact on the system. OTOH, if you run it at a niceness of 20, it Unfortunately, it has. I made the observation that, for example, nfs server performance goes down dramatically when a cpu intensive job is run on the machine even with idprio. I was explained that this is due to the fact that FreeBSD isn't a realtime operating system. You can find more about this discussion in the mailing lists; look for rc5 and idle priority, IIRC. -Andre > can still have some impact because it always runs at least a little. With > idprio it seems to only run when the system is truly idle. Granted, my > experience is with the RC5 client, but the concepts should be the same for > seti@home as well. > > > -- > > Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" > > Wilde Media > > 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 > > Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net > > --- > > John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ > PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 10:15:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BDF714DC1; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:15:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00636; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Philip Kizer Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:22:02 CDT." <199904181622.LAA25698@mail.nostrum.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:13:25 -0700 Message-ID: <634.924455605@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Is there a press release yet for that one to which we can point people? A press release requires a willing press. :) So far, we haven't had much luck there. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 10:54:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cerebus.nectar.com (nectar-gw.nectar.com [204.0.249.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E795F15547 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:54:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by cerebus.nectar.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA62442; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:51:53 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from spawn.nectar.com(10.0.0.101) by cerebus.nectar.com via smap (V2.1) id xma062440; Sun, 18 Apr 99 12:51:36 -0500 Received: from spawn.nectar.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spawn.nectar.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA40874; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:50:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from nectar@spawn.nectar.com) Message-Id: <199904181750.MAA40874@spawn.nectar.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-Exmh-Isig-CompType: repl X-Exmh-Isig-Folder: mlist/freebsd/chat X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-rsa.txt X-PGP-DSSfprint: AB2F 8D71 A4F4 467D 352E 8A41 5D79 22E4 71A2 8C73 X-PGP-DHfprint: 2D50 12E5 AB38 60BA AF4B 0778 7242 4460 1C32 F6B1 X-PGP-DH-DSSkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-dh-dss.txt From: Jacques Vidrine In-reply-to: <3719B8A7.7FFC38AE@funk.org> References: <3719B8A7.7FFC38AE@funk.org> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Real Quick Newsletter March & April 1999 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain To: Alex Le Heux Cc: Chris Coleman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:50:12 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 April 1999 at 12:49, Alex Le Heux wrote: > Nice that it runs FreeBSD, just too bad that it doesn't do strong > encryption. It runs CheckPoint Firewall-1, and should have all the features of that product, including strong encryption. Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 11: 1:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from crap.31337.net (node1484.a2000.nl [62.108.20.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0532A14BE5 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 11:01:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alexlh@funk.org) Received: from funk.org (p [194.109.86.229]) by crap.31337.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id TAA14792; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:59:39 GMT (envelope-from alexlh@funk.org) Message-ID: <371A1D58.6F09C000@funk.org> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 19:58:48 +0200 From: Alex Le Heux X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jacques Vidrine Cc: Chris Coleman , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Real Quick Newsletter March & April 1999 References: <3719B8A7.7FFC38AE@funk.org> <199904181750.MAA40874@spawn.nectar.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jacques Vidrine wrote: > > On 18 April 1999 at 12:49, Alex Le Heux wrote: > > Nice that it runs FreeBSD, just too bad that it doesn't do strong > > encryption. > > It runs CheckPoint Firewall-1, and should have all the features > of that product, including strong encryption. Well, the Nokia site seems to say otherwise: > A full set of encryption options is offered to cover your worldwide > deployment: 56-bit DES, FWZ-1 (Check Point's 48-bit exportable > encryption), DES-40 and RC4-40. Nothing's that 40 bits is strong crypto and since the last DES challenge no one considers 56 bit DES very strong either. Alex To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 12: 6:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E50AE14D98 for ; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 12:06:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.164.76]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990418190556.OHAE5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:05:56 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:04:18 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: "Dan Langille"'s message of "Sun, 18 Apr 1999 17:10:33 +1200" In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990418190556.OHAE5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 18 Apr 99, at 16:08, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > "Dan Langille" writes: > > On 17 Apr 99, at 23:28, jack wrote: > > > Today Dan Langille wrote: > > > > > Nevermind. Damnit, you've forced me to read the procmail docs. > > > > You wouldn't believe the number of requests I've had for a procmail > > > > article in the past week or so. It's astounding. ;) > > > That one's easy. :) > > > > > > :0 > > > * ^From:.* Brett Glass > > > /dev/null > > neah! I meant people were asking me for articles on how to install and > > configure procmail... > > That one's even easier: > > # cd /usr/ports/mail/procmail > # make install clean Hmmmm, well if it's that easy, why don't we get more people writing documentation? ;) -- Dan Langille The FreeBSD Diary http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/freebsd To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 18 13:18:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.nostrum.com (mail.nostrum.com [206.28.8.254]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB4D8155CC; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 13:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pckizer@nostrum.com) Received: (from pckizer@localhost) by mail.nostrum.com (8.9.0/8.9.0) id PAA29294; Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:15:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199904182015.PAA29294@mail.nostrum.com> From: Philip Kizer To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 18 Apr 1999 10:13:25 PDT." <634.924455605@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 15:15:57 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >A press release requires a willing press. :) So far, we haven't had >much luck there. -chuckle- Ah...good point... I'll go ahead and send a small (calm) reader type note to illiad that at least points to Charles' original article in the freebsd-chat archives. The irony of it just gets to me too much. Thanks, philip -- AKA: Philip Kizer Texas A&M CIS Operating Systems Group, Unix To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 1:53:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CCA314FD3 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 01:53:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10Z9lc-000Ea1-0C for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:51:00 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA01787 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:50:55 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA02144; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:50:54 +0100 Message-ID: <371AEDDD.89180EFE@uk.radan.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:48:29 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Sad, but true (humour) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org IT'S TIME TO TURN YOUR COMPUTER OFF & READ A BOOK WHEN... 1. You wake up at 3 am to go to the bathroom and stop to check your E-mail on the way back to bed. 2. You name your children Eudora, AOL and dotcom. 3. You turn off your modem and get this awful empty feeling, as if you just pulled the plug on a loved one. 4. You spend half of the plane trip with your laptop on your lap...and your child in the overhead compartment. 5. You decide to stay in college for an additional year or two, just for the free internet access. 6. You laugh at people with 14.4-baud modems. 7. You start using smileys in your snail mail. 8. You find yourself typing "com" after every period when using a word processor.com 9. You can't call your mother...she doesn't have a modem. 10. You check your mail. It says "no new messages." So you check it again. 11. You don't know what gender three of your closest friends are, because they have neutral screennames and you never bothered to ask. 12. You move into a new house and decide to Netscape before you Landscape 13. You tell the cab driver you live at : http://1000.garden/house/brick.html 14. You start tilting your head sideways to smile. 15. After reading this message, you immediately e-mail it to a friend. -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 2:10:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A65DB14F9E for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:10:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 39557 invoked by uid 1003); 19 Apr 1999 11:07:49 -0000 Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:07:49 +0000 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Ollivier Robert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: App Idea: Configuration Message-ID: <19990419110749.A38869@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: <19990416193816.A40913@keltia.freenix.fr> <199904161905.MAA92711@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199904161905.MAA92711@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Fri, Apr 16, 1999 at 12:05:25PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri 1999-04-16 (12:05), Amancio Hasty wrote: > I volunteer to write a FreeBSD LDAP Web Page to help out. > > What I need is specific instructions to enable LDAP for each > MTA and how is LDAP used. Since the majority are in ports, simply telling the ports team how to enable LDAP will enable them to create an "LDAP" variable people can set if they want support, or simply enable the support always, if that is a good idea. ie, cd /usr/ports/mail/qmail && make LDAP=yes install (yes, I volunteer) Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 2:13:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rucus.ru.ac.za (rucus.ru.ac.za [146.231.29.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 230EE14F9E for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:13:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za) Received: (qmail 40150 invoked by uid 1003); 19 Apr 1999 11:11:34 -0000 Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:11:33 +0000 From: Neil Blakey-Milner To: Dan Langille Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Message-ID: <19990419111133.B38869@rucus.ru.ac.za> References: <19990418190556.OHAE5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990418190556.OHAE5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; from Dan Langille on Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 07:04:18AM +1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon 1999-04-19 (07:04), Dan Langille wrote: > > That one's even easier: > > > > # cd /usr/ports/mail/procmail > > # make install clean > > Hmmmm, well if it's that easy, why don't we get more people writing > documentation? ;) Because it's not something you should need to learn by rote, but rather in a general way. (ie, how do you install ports? cd /usr/ports/category/name && make install). This should be handled in the ports section of the handbook. Maybe with the new cookbook ideas it'll be repeated in specific cases. Neil -- Neil Blakey-Milner nbm@rucus.ru.ac.za To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 2:18:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C83515227 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:16:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id LAA16440; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:14:09 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA18387; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:14:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:14:09 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-Reply-To: <199904150826.BAA83121@rah.star-gate.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Actually, I bet that the ones complaining about cross-posting are due > to lack of a proper filter and not so much because they are paying for their > dial up access as for the "flame war" it is gone . Long time ago we had > time this problem on the mailing lists and the complains went down after > people started using mail duplicate filters. Hey, listen up here. I pay for my dial-up. I don't pay to recieve crap. I'm on a tight enough budget as it is. Not everyone has free telephone, as is how the situation in the US is, compared to norway. The principle of crossposting unnecessary crap still doesn't change. Transferring work to the end user is what it's about. This is the same argument as used by spammers. EOD. - Marius - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 2:30:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2336F14E51 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:30:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA41659; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:26:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904190926.CAA41659@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:14:09 +0200." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 02:26:14 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, Yes, I agree that cross posting is bad and that in general people should not do it . The question is what should you do when people do cross post? In my case, I found it easier to apply a mail filter rather than keep asking people not to crosspost . My "dial-up " (SDSL) is not cheap and I pay for it. Cheers, Amancio -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 3: 4:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42B0B14C57 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 03:04:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id UAA04994; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:01:42 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990419200138.29295@welearn.com.au> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:01:38 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: <199904190926.CAA41659@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <199904190926.CAA41659@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 02:26:14AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 02:26:14AM -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > The question is what should you do when people do cross post? Kill the bastards. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 7: 5:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com (assurance.rstcorp.com [206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E572150A4 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:05:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA02752; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:04:23 -0400 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma002743; Mon, 19 Apr 99 14:04:05 GMT Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23796; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA01526; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904191402.KAA01526@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: John Baldwin Cc: Donald Wilde , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, Dave Rossow , jgrosch@mooseriver.com Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD In-Reply-To: References: <3719DFF0.DD15987@thuntek.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>> "John" == John Baldwin writes: John> I asssume that if you set it to run at an idle priority ( man John> idprio ) it has virtually no impact on the system. OTOH, if John> you run it at a niceness of 20, it can still have some impact John> because it always runs at least a little. With idprio it seems John> to only run when the system is truly idle. Granted, my John> experience is with the RC5 client, but the concepts should be John> the same for seti@home as well. 74 processes: 3 running, 70 sleeping, 1 zombie CPU states: % user, % nice, % system, % interrupt, % idle Mem: 73M Active, 28M Inact, 14M Wired, 7808K Cache, 8028K Buf, 632K Free Swap: 256M Total, 256M Free PID USERNAME PRI NICE SIZE RES STATE TIME WCPU CPU COMMAND 1001 vshah 105 1 14776K 14380K RUN 13:02 58.15% 58.15% setiatho 285 nobody 105 20 904K 380K RUN 22:36 33.74% 33.74% rc5des 722 vshah 2 0 13884K 12940K select 1:10 2.00% 2.00% xemacs-1 583 vshah 2 0 23232K 21236K select 0:45 1.27% 1.27% XF86_SVG 611 vshah 2 0 1924K 1280K select 0:01 0.05% 0.05% fvwm2 735 vshah 2 0 23644K 18848K select 0:09 0.00% 0.00% communic 620 vshah 10 0 2444K 1736K nanslp 0:05 0.00% 0.00% xearth I have both rc5 and seti running on my work machine. It does slow down big compiles, but just give the compile a higher priority. rc5 is running nice'd, but seti is running at normal priority. It doesn't affect "normal" interactive response. If I run x11amp on the, the sound output is as good as ever. This is on a PIi 400 w/ 128M RAM. Viren -- Viren R. Shah {viren @ rstcorp . com} Names : Vanadium(23) Iodine(53) RhEnium(75) Nitrogen(7) Density(g/mL): 5.8 4.92 21 0.0001251 Average Density: 7.93003 g/mL To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 7:17:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C062151BF for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:17:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gummibear@we.mediaone.net) Received: from gummibear.we.mediaone.net (we-24-130-60-137.we.mediaone.net [24.130.60.137]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA16924 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:15:11 -0700 (PDT) From: gummibear@we.mediaone.net Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990419071647.00796100@we.mediaone.net> X-Sender: gummibear@we.mediaone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:16:47 -0700 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Sad, but true (humour) In-Reply-To: <371AEDDD.89180EFE@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:48 AM 4/19/99 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: >IT'S TIME TO TURN YOUR COMPUTER OFF & READ A BOOK WHEN... > >1. You wake up at 3 am to go to the bathroom and > stop to check your E-mail on the way back to bed. > >2. You name your children Eudora, AOL and dotcom. Actually, I named him Daemon. Joey ================================================================ Joey Bear Garcia Downey, CA bear@pacificnet.net ================================================================ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 7:18:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from axl.noc.iafrica.com (axl.noc.iafrica.com [196.31.1.175]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DE991550A for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 07:18:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sheldonh@axl.noc.iafrica.com) Received: from sheldonh (helo=axl.noc.iafrica.com) by axl.noc.iafrica.com with local-esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10ZEpt-00016F-00; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:15:45 +0200 From: Sheldon Hearn To: Matthew Dillon Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: HEADS UP!!!! Important instructions for -current users! In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:04:36 MST." <199904171904.MAA75813@apollo.backplane.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:15:44 +0200 Message-ID: <4230.924531344@axl.noc.iafrica.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 17 Apr 1999 12:04:36 MST, Matthew Dillon wrote: > Point #2 : The language barrier. Language is always a barrier, > but it is made much worse when people to take a guy to task for > his 'bad english'. I would ask people to STOP DOING THIS. Um, so you're saying that it's once again okay to use split infinitives when discussing style(9)? :-P Ciao, Sheldon. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 8:44:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1191537A for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 08:44:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08842; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:41:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990419093753.0454e490@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 09:41:24 -0600 To: chris@calldei.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Cc: Marius Bendiksen , chris@calldei.com, "Daniel O'Connor" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz In-Reply-To: <19990418080429.A37740@holly.dyndns.org> References: <4.2.0.32.19990416153550.045b9d50@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990415215446.0095d610@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990416153550.045b9d50@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:04 AM 4/18/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: >I don't particularly like your irrational, extremist ways of >convincing people, or expressing yourself. What I've been saying is not only rational but borne out by history and by the way things are actually unfolding. Labels such as "extremist" are only an attempt to brand the messenger. But rather than engage in meta-discussion, it's more important to face the issues at hand. The world isn't waiting for FreeBSD, folks; it's passing it by. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 10: 1:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (dialin2017.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FD3815392 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 10:01:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA26036 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:11:22 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199904191711.MAA26036@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.44); 19 Apr 99 11:58:32 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.44); 19 Apr 99 11:58:20 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:58:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com In-reply-to: <4.2.0.32.19990419093753.0454e490@localhost> References: <19990418080429.A37740@holly.dyndns.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.02b21) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Apr 99, at 9:41, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:04 AM 4/18/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > >I don't particularly like your irrational, extremist ways of > >convincing people, or expressing yourself. > What I've been saying is not only rational but borne out > by history and by the way things are actually unfolding. > > Labels such as "extremist" are only an attempt to brand > the messenger. > But rather than engage in meta-discussion, it's more important > to face the issues at hand. The world isn't waiting for FreeBSD, > folks; it's passing it by. I wish I could say Brett were wrong. As a product reviewer for InfoWorld (1) I deal with a lot of vendors (2). And when they tell me they have a cross platform product covering NT, NetWare, and Unix, I ALWAYS ask, "which flavors of Unix - do you do any of the free Unices?". NO ONE has told me they support FreeBSD. When pressed on the matter, and I always ask, the usual response is, "what's that?" They see a lot of progress being made by Linux, and talk about how Linux is very popular with ISP's. My own sampling suggests that FreeBSD is even more popular among ISP's, but I don't have hard figures (3). The vendors just haven't heard of FreeBSD. While I've been using FreeBSD for about 4 years, I'm a FreeBSD newbie. My ISP installed it for me, and it's just been sitting in the corner doing it's thing - flawlessly - ever since. In 4 years, I've had to replace the CPU fan and the power supply (it's fan died too). A 133mhz 5x86 with 16 megs of ram has been my link to the internet. And more (it's also my SendMail host and my web server). I'm sold.... very sold. I've started looking at FreeBSD and the mailing lists more more because I need to upgrade to a more current system and realize I need to learn more. My biggest disappointment is the level of flaming here. Is Brett really the anti-FreeBSD? Or are we trying real hard to throw out the baby with the bath water? Brett is one of the very few mainstream writers who acknowledges that FreeBSD exists, much less praises it. Trust me, he has other things he can write about. And trust me again, his editors would probably be happier if he covered something more "commercially viable".(4) He is going out on a limb to provide the coverage he has. And his return, from what I can see, has been pretty bad. All in all, I think we need to stop, take a deep breath, and look at things they way they are, not the way we want them to be. If the growth of FreeBSD is where we want it, then we don't need to consider other ways of getting the word out. If it isn't where we want it, then we need to think about the effectiveness of how we are getting the word out, and other ways to get the word out. If you compare OS's to religous movements (5), religous movements rarely rely on a single way of getting converts. Even churches work hard and in varied ways to get visitors through the door, and to keep them in the fold after that. Advertisements, special programs, personal testimony, booths at fairs, billboards, television programs, courting the news media for coverage all have their place. And none of them are enough by themselves. If we want to grow, are we doing enough? As a newbie, I don't know, I just want to raise the question. Despite being a FreeBSD newbie, I have to say I think both sides of the issue have sounded irrational at times. Since Brett is a professional writer, his anger is surprising. I suspect he's been aroused - how many times can you be called names, and have your points ignored before you become strident and irrational? The worst part of flaming is it tends to cause the discussion to drop to the level of the flamer..... and then intelligent discourse is gone. Brett has the disadvantage that he's being attacked on all sides. And it DOES seem that he is being attacked. One recurring topic regards the dissection of press releases. Brett reads them and asks, "is this what you meant to say", and that is a very valid question. How do you feel when someone asks you how to put a server together, and you carefully evaluate their needs and suggest several 100baseT NICs. And later discover they went with a single ARCNet(6) NIC instead? And are complaining about the performance? And complaining about you since you spec'ed out the machine? They ignored your advice, and then complained about the results of ignoring your advice. Brett makes a portion of his living writing and editing. When he suggests that a press release doesn't communicate what it should, instead of calling him names, it might be wise to pause and consider the matter carefully. What are we trying to communicate? Did the press release communicate what we wanted, or was it open to misunderstanding? It's easy to put words together in ways that are open to misunderstanding - even professional wordslingers do it. So, can we all cool it and address the issues, and not the personalities? Mike (1) While Brett and I work for the same publication, he's a staffer and I'm a stringer or a freelancer. I don't know Brett and have never met him - I don't even know where he is based, but I think he's about 1,500 miles from my home office. I'm not writing this out of any sort of loyalty to Brett or the magazine we write for. Also, if you don't like the magazine, that's cool. If you feel you need to vent about it, please feel free to email me directly, as I don't think it's a valid topic for this list. (2) Yes, I have reviewed FreeBSD based products in the past. And want to do so in the future. Drop me a note if you have a commercial, enterprise class, product you would like to see covered. I can't promise anything other than I'll talk to you about it as stringers don't decide what gets covered, although they can make suggestions to the editors. (3) If you have hard figures regarding FreeBSD use by ISP's, I'd love to see them. Please send me a pointer, or a copy. (4) I don't know what life is like at other magazines, but at InfoWorld, the writers have *NO* contact with the marketing people. I've *NEVER* been told to tone it down, or to say something nice about these guys because they are a big advertiser. One time I commented that an advertiser had a brain dead user interface. They ran it, and went to bat for me when the advertiser was quite upset. Despite this, the editors do have some idea of what the readers are interested in. And the evidence suggests that it isn't FreeBSD, despite it's virtues. So, it doesn't get ink often. From my perspective, Brett is going out on a limb. And even if we don't agree with him (I don't know enough to judge), we probably shouldn't shoot the messenger. (5) Probably not a hopelessly bad comparison, when you get down to it. Extremists in religion or OS advocacy both seem to have lost touch with reality all too often. (6) A good friend was one of the designers of ARCNet. To him, I'll apologize in advance for the scurrilous characterization of his brain child as slow. Seriously, there are some places where I'd still suggest ARCNet - if I thought I had a chance in hell of getting the idea accepted. ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Is that my phone bill or the national debt? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 11:19:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9A5615636 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:19:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip124.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.124]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAEF737075; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:16:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA49946; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:16:48 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 13:16:47 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Mike Avery Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) Message-ID: <19990419131647.A44240@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990418080429.A37740@holly.dyndns.org> <4.2.0.32.19990419093753.0454e490@localhost> <199904191711.MAA26036@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <199904191711.MAA26036@hostigos.otherwhen.com>; from Mike Avery on Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 11:58:11AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 19, 1999, Mike Avery wrote: > I wish I could say Brett were wrong. As a product reviewer for > InfoWorld (1) I deal with a lot of vendors (2). And when they tell > me they have a cross platform product covering NT, NetWare, and > Unix, I ALWAYS ask, "which flavors of Unix - do you do any of the > free Unices?". NO ONE has told me they support FreeBSD. When > pressed on the matter, and I always ask, the usual response is, > "what's that?" I've never said Brett's type of advocacy was wrong, as far as I remember. I've seen some pretty good press release from him. I've also seen good from Jordan. I haven't been very ``into'' the advocacy side of things until recently, so I can't say I've seen anything bad coming from either of them. I'm thinking of ways to get FreeBSD more recognition without practicing the ``bad'' advocacy discussed before. > They see a lot of progress being made by Linux, and talk about how > Linux is very popular with ISP's. My own sampling suggests that > FreeBSD is even more popular among ISP's, but I don't have hard > figures (3). The vendors just haven't heard of FreeBSD. The local Micro Center ha[sd] a better FreeBSD selection than that for Linux. When I was reading the back of the box sometime last year around this time (this is when I first got FreeBSD), two people came buy and looked at Linux, and then bought FreeBSD instead. We must be doing something right. > While I've been using FreeBSD for about 4 years, I'm a FreeBSD > newbie. My ISP installed it for me, and it's just been sitting in the > corner doing it's thing - flawlessly - ever since. In 4 years, I've had > to replace the CPU fan and the power supply (it's fan died too). A > 133mhz 5x86 with 16 megs of ram has been my link to the internet. > And more (it's also my SendMail host and my web server). I'm sold.... > very sold. > > I've started looking at FreeBSD and the mailing lists more more > because I need to upgrade to a more current system and realize I > need to learn more. We need success stories, and we need to get Rob Malda to stop ignoring the FreeBSD stories. > (3) If you have hard figures regarding FreeBSD use by ISP's, I'd > love to see them. Please send me a pointer, or a copy. This is one of the things I'm looking into. I'm also looking into a decent figure as to how many large, commercial businesses are using FreeBSD. > ====================================================================== > Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com > (409)-842-2942 (work) > ICQ: 16241692 > > * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * > > A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: > Is that my phone bill or the national debt? Yes, it is. -- Chris Costello To err is human; to forgive, beyond the scope of the Operating System. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 11:40: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAA4B14F47 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:40:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA05918; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:37:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:58:11 CDT." <199904191711.MAA26036@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:37:26 -0700 Message-ID: <5916.924547046@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Evangelism begins at home. As I've told the readers if this list many times, if you want to see FreeBSD get more ink, WRITE SOMETHING. Publishers don't just make this stuff up on their own, people write articles and they publish them. Brett got a lot of support from us when he wrote for magazines like Smart Reseller - I even sent him a bit of glowing praise of my own for it, making a lie of the statement that he's never gotten any positive feedback from us for his actions. What gotten people riled up were some of his _less_ popular ideas, none of which involved writing for magazines or doing other more obvious, tangible advocacy, and Brett's refusal to understand that not all of his ideas are entirely good (or that one should back off/rethink in the face of opposition, not simply get progressively louder and more strident) are what got us into this mess with him. I've also pointed out the lack of books and magazine articles about FreeBSD many many times in this list and it's usually like shouting into a well. I clearly can't be a one-man writing machine and even if I were, I'd only manage to cover a small fraction of the available venues by myself. If this is to change, people like yourselves need to (and pardon my french) get up off your asses and DO something, not just complain in -advocacy or -chat that nobody is doing anything. That's clearly unproductive and is also like preaching to the choir. We know that already, what we're wondering now is who's going to write the articles and CHANGE this! And sorry for the caps, but you wouldn't believe how often I have to point this very obvious fact and how seldomly people are actually willing to do something about it. All the complaints in the world to these lists won't change FreeBSD's position one iota. Only getting out there and joining the volunteers at install-a-thons (see www.bafug.org for one such example in action), writing articles and submitting them for publication or visiting trade shows and evangelising on FreeBSD's behalf will make a real difference. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 11:46:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D9C8150CB for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:46:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #3) id 10ZIj6-00065h-00; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:25:00 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:25:00 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Sad, but true (humour) Message-ID: <19990419192500.B23332@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <371AEDDD.89180EFE@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <371AEDDD.89180EFE@uk.radan.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > 1. You wake up at 3 am to go to the bathroom and > stop to check your E-mail on the way back to bed. Hmm... It's not unusual for me to be awake at 3am, so I couldn't really wake up. And can you explain please why going to the bathroom should take higher priority than reading email, and email should wait till after you've been to the bathroom? You've got your priorities mixed up :-) > 15. After reading this message, you immediately > e-mail it to a friend. You forgot the last one which was there when I first read this: 16. You decide to give it to all your real life friends as well. Hang on... What real life friends?? -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 12:17:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from octopus.originative (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9197C158F0; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:17:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by octopus with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id <2RSVN4S5>; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:13:03 +0100 Message-ID: From: paul@originative.co.uk To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, pckizer@nostrum.com Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Charles Henrich a Star? Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:12:55 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Jordan K. Hubbard [mailto:jkh@zippy.cdrom.com] > Sent: 18 April 1999 18:13 > To: Philip Kizer > Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG; chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? > > > > Is there a press release yet for that one to which we can > point people? > > A press release requires a willing press. :) So far, we haven't had > much luck there. I take your point but actually, a press release is something we write and "release to the press", whether they print it or not is another matter :-) In this case it would be useful if someone could write something about the fact that matrix had special effects done with FreeBSD so that anyone with access to the press has the article to draw on. I'd be more than happy to get an article out to the press in the UK but I'm not in a position to write anything on this one since the film's not released over here and I'd never heard of it until it came up on this list. I will do a publicity push around this film when it gets to the UK if someone in the US can co-operate with me to write the release, I just don't have the info to do it at the moment. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 12:23:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DD4115392; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:23:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA06255; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:20:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: paul@originative.co.uk Cc: pckizer@nostrum.com, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:12:55 BST." Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:20:38 -0700 Message-ID: <6253.924549638@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I take your point but actually, a press release is something we write and > "release to the press", whether they print it or not is another matter :-) So far, the press that we know of (and most of us don't have much in the way of press contacts, I certainly don't) has not printed it. :( > In this case it would be useful if someone could write something about the > fact that matrix had special effects done with FreeBSD so that anyone with > access to the press has the article to draw on. See http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/matrix.html That's all I've had in the way of "press material" and, as I've said here many times, I suck at writing actual press releases so that's all you're going to get. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 12:44:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hp9000.chc-chimes.com (hp9000.chc-chimes.com [206.67.97.84]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D15E115098; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 12:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from billf@chc-chimes.com) Received: from localhost by hp9000.chc-chimes.com with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA246845627; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:27:07 -0400 Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:27:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Bill Fumerola To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-Reply-To: <6253.924549638@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > See http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/matrix.html This won't work, see below. > That's all I've had in the way of "press material" and, as I've said > here many times, I suck at writing actual press releases so that's > all you're going to get. :-) The company that used FreeBSD should make the press release, not FreeBSD. It's convincing and powerful to say "We used FreeBSD to do special effects for 'The Matrix'", directly from the mouths of the people in the credits. - bill fumerola - billf@chc-chimes.com - BF1560 - computer horizons corp - - ph:(800) 252-2421 - bfumerol@computerhorizons.com - billf@FreeBSD.org - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 14: 9:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (dialin2017.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33603155DF for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:09:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA26264 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:20:03 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199904192120.QAA26264@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.44); 19 Apr 99 16:07:13 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.44); 19 Apr 99 16:06:41 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:06:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Making press contacts (was: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? ) Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com References: Your message of "Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:12:55 BST." In-reply-to: <6253.924549638@zippy.cdrom.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.02b21) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Apr 99, at 12:20, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > I take your point but actually, a press release is something we write > > and "release to the press", whether they print it or not is another > > matter :-) > So far, the press that we know of (and most of us don't have much in > the way of press contacts, I certainly don't) has not printed it. :( Oh.... that's easily resolved. Magazines are there to print news. And every time the magazine is printed, something has to be in there. Feeding the hungry column inches isn't easy. So... your material might as well be in there instead of something else. The trick is you have to convince the writers and editors that your press release is news. Of course, what is news is subjective.... so spreading the message to more people is a good idea. Here's what I'd do... as you read magazines, note the names of the writers and editors. If any of them cover material that could also cover FreeBSD, jot down their name(s). (To put this in perspective - if Harvey Schwartz only covers printers, sending him a note is probably a waste of time. If Fred covers network operating systems, he needs your press releases.) Also, many magazines print the email addresses of the writers and editors on every article. If the magazine you're reading does that, jot that down too. If the magazine didn't include the email address, once you have all the names collected from a magazine, flip to the front of the magazine and look at the information there. Often in amongst the table of contents and other masthead information is a section on "how to contact us". If that hasn't helped, check their home page and look around. Do a search on the author and editors names. If you still haven't gotten it, call the magazine. Ask for the editor in charge of the appropriate section. Tell the editor how much you enjoyed the writer's recent piece on whatever, and that you'd like to send the writer a "thank you". And then ask for the email addresses of the guilty parties. Get the editor's email address also, if you haven't already. If an article is good, that suggests that an editor helped it. Sometimes by refining it, sometimes by not ruining it. Either way, they deserve thanks. Once you have the email addresses, put 'em into a distribution list or mailing list and use 'em. Also - set it up so people don't see all the addresses you sent it too. The best news is exclusive news. And while we all know it was sent to 100 other people (or more), we'd like to dream that we alone got it. And scrolling down 100 names in the "to:" and "cc:" sections is a real drag. You can try to setup a "FreeBSD Press Releases" mailing list, but subscribing to it would require action on the part of the people you are trying to reach... all in all, I don't think it would work too well. Needless to say, if some of the people get annoyed and ask to not receive any more press releases, stop sending 'em. You usually don't win points by annoying people. Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: One thing about pain....it proves you're alive. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 14:56:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FBC14C3E; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 14:56:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA03319; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:09:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:09:37 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Bill Fumerola Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Bill Fumerola wrote: > On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > See http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/matrix.html > > This won't work, see below. > > > That's all I've had in the way of "press material" and, as I've said > > here many times, I suck at writing actual press releases so that's > > all you're going to get. :-) > > The company that used FreeBSD should make the press release, not FreeBSD. > > It's convincing and powerful to say "We used FreeBSD to do special effects > for 'The Matrix'", directly from the mouths of the people in the credits. I can only dream how cool it would have been to see: "The Matrix was powered by FreeBSD (http://www.freebsd.org/)" Or something like that at the bottom of the credits.... -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 15: 3:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C331715121 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 15:03:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.237]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA6414; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:00:47 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA03250; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:00:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199904191722.KAA43892@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:00:52 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: newbus and modem(s) Cc: wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net, "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Daniel C. Sobral" , Alex Zepeda , W Gerald Hicks , Nate Williams , FreeBSD Chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ redirected to -chat ] On 19-Apr-99 Amancio Hasty wrote: >> All 'source code' control is guarded by a certain group of people in >> *every* project, and FreeBSD is no different. It just has different >> folks guarding it, who have different standards and requirements. > > Perhaps a good step towards understanding would be if those > "guarding" the process would actually state what is their > standard and requirements, if they have any. It coud start > by something like this: > > FreeBSD Development Guidelines and Motivation... > > It don't matter nothing has bee resolved with this issue for the last > year when I highlighted this problem and I doubt that anything > will come out of it this time. Funny thing, that's one of the things I am persuing with the Programmer's Handbook... So mayhaps Amancio, yer dream may come true =) Let me ask this other question: what do you, and others, think the guidelines and motivation of/for FreeBSD ought to be? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 16:14:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99DBF14BCE for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:14:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-67-19.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.67.19]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA13875; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA04193; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:10:54 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199904192310.TAA04193@bellsouth.net> To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Amancio Hasty , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Daniel C. Sobral" , Alex Zepeda , W Gerald Hicks , Nate Williams , FreeBSD Chat , wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: newbus and modem(s) In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:00:52 +0200." Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:10:54 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > what do you, and others, think the guidelines and motivation of/for FreeBSD > ought to be? Boy! That's a big one. I'll offer this: Advancing the state of the art in the tradition of BSD while maintaining a reasonable balance between concerns of portability and performance. At this point in time, I'm not as concerned about mainstream acceptance of FreeBSD as some people seem to be. That time will come... Although I would prefer that -core avoid social and political agendas, it's not a stretch to imagine that the emergence of free and open systems such as FreeBSD will have a lasting and important effect on our education processes and perhaps even our governments. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 16:46:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 688C514BF9; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:46:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07370; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:43:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Bill Fumerola Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 19 Apr 1999 11:27:07 EDT." Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 16:43:44 -0700 Message-ID: <7368.924565424@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It's convincing and powerful to say "We used FreeBSD to do special effects > for 'The Matrix'", directly from the mouths of the people in the credits. I believe Don has been pursuing that with Manex, but I don't know if he's had much luck. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 17:52: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E47881504A for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 17:51:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA13712; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:48:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990419171213.03ed5730@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:47:22 -0600 To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: FreeBSD and memetics In-Reply-To: <199904191711.MAA26033@hostigos.otherwhen.com> References: <4.2.0.32.19990419093753.0454e490@localhost> <19990418080429.A37740@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mike Avery has raised many good points here. >If you compare OS's to religous movements (5), religous movements >rarely rely on a single way of getting converts. Even churches work >hard and in varied ways to get visitors through the door, and to keep >them in the fold after that. Advertisements, special programs, >personal testimony, booths at fairs, billboards, television programs, >courting the news media for coverage all have their place. And none >of them are enough by themselves. If we want to grow, are we doing >enough? As a newbie, I don't know, I just want to raise the question. There are, indeed, many modes of advocacy, just as there are many modes of advertising. To understand why, it helps to see FreeBSD's situation from the perspective of "memetics" -- a set of useful ideas based on concepts from the fields of sociology, psychology, genetics, and comparative religion. Memes, to sum up the concept in a sentence, are mental constructs -- ideas or cultural elements -- which spread, compete, and evolve in a manner akin to that of the DNA in genes or viruses. Religions, brand loyalty, the "cultural" aspects of operating systems, multi-level marketing schemes, and aphorisms may all be said to be memes. (For a good introduction to the subject, see Richard Brodie's book "Virus of the Mind," ISBN 0-9636001-1-7.) The hardiest memes have more than one vector, just as the hardiest viruses do. (The Melissa virus, the fastest-spreading virus in history, used three vectors: e-mail to familiar correspondents, template infection, and file infection.) In fact, they work best when they have multiple propagation mechanisms with varying degrees of aggressiveness. Linux has this characteristic: among the mechanisms by which it propagates are the radical lunatic fringe (Richard Stallman), "pragmatic" advocates (Eric Raymond), a cult hero (Linus Torvalds) who garners press attention and general admiration, and corporate marketing (Red Hat Software and its cluster of allies). Some would say that Linux and FreeBSD are themselves memes, but to be more precise, they are each surrounded by a cloud of them. The "culture" of an OS, its user experience, its vocabulary, the consistent logic of its commands and architecture (in the case of FreeBSD, shared by all of the BSDs), its user community and the interactions within it, and brand loyalty to it are all memes. One of the reasons that Linux has done so well is that its memes -- in some cases by design, in some cases by accident -- give it some particularly adaptive traits. You might say it has "good memes" in the same way you might say that an unusually healthy person has "good genes." (1) FreeBSD, on the other hand, lacks some of the "good memes" of Linux and also has some maladaptive ones. One of the things about memes is that, good or bad, people tend to cling to them. We see this in the case of religion: humans will continue to embrace religions such as the cults of Branch Davidianism, Jim Jones, etc. even if it results in destruction. FreeBSD, and some members of the FreeBSD project, appear to be clinging to what I see as some maladaptive memes and resisting change. (This is a natural tendency.) At the same time, I believe, they are failing to develop for FreeBSD the new memes it needs to compete in the "software ecosystem." Mike's message describes some of these. Mike also makes the point that my questioning of some of these maladaptive memes has resulted in hostility from a few people. This is often true of memes; they tend to manifest as "touchy subjects." When a detached observer points out that someone's irrational but deeply heartfelt loyalty to, say, a football team or an odd religious concept (e.g. "Don't you think it's kind of a bad idea to undergo castration and then take poison so your soul can hitch a ride with aliens hiding behind a passing comet?"), one is often greeted with hostility even if the comment makes a great deal of sense. I think that this is what's happening here. (2) Some people on the list have even gone as far as to interpret these hostile RESPONSES to my messages as meaning that I myself have been intentionally hostile, which I haven't. I'm merely playing the part of the detached observer who, not having that particular meme, can see from the outside that it is maladaptive. One FreeBSD meme that seems to be pervasive, especially in FreeBSD's "inner circle," is a notion of "ownership" in proportion to the extent of one technical contributions -- that is, a consensus that one is not entitled to point out *any* of FreeBSD's memetic problems unless one had authored or worked on some substantial portion of the code. (I wonder if my attempts to contribute technically to FreeBSD were, in fact, rebuffed because the incorporation of my code would, in effect, grant me the "ownership" that was considered a prerequisite to doing this.) It seems to me, however, that a requirement that one make large technical contributions before one could comment on memes related to advocacy is itself a maladaptive meme. (FreeBSD's greatest memetic problems are almost entirely orthogonal to technical issues.) In any event, I didn't feel that it was a good idea to attempt to contribute in a climate where my proposed contributions were greeted with such intense hostility. So, I resigned from the advocacy list and committed the time I had reserved for FreeBSD advocacy to other pursuits. Now, again, on this list, I see similar hostility. But since I *must* remain on the "chat" list in order to catch issues which are important to me as a system administrator, I hope (as Mike does) that we can avoid the name-calling and reframe the discussion in a way that will be more productive. Can we talk? --Brett Glass P.S. -- By the way, Mike made one minor factual mistake in his message. I'm not an employee of InfoWorld, nor have I ever been one. I wrote a very popular column as an independent contractor for the magazine for 8 years, after which time it was abruptly cancelled. Some say that it was due to my published observations about Microsoft's behavior in court. Others say that it had to do with a cultural change in InfoWorld; that the magazine was moving toward appealing to the "pointy-haired boss" and away from the people who actually did corporate IT. In any event, I'm now writing for many other publications, including the ZDNet Help Channel and BoardWatch. (1) Some of Linux's memes, by the bye, were actually designed for a different purpose that which they ultimately serve for Linux. For example, the GPL was designed by Stallman not to make Linux popular but to annihilate commercial software. However, the rhetoric associated with it serves to attract those who are dissatisfied with Microsoft's products and/or its dominance in the industry. The power of promising a clear alternative to the growing disaffected class of Microsoft software users cannot be underestimated. (2) No, I'm not comparing the beliefs of any of the FreeBSD team to this sort of whacko religious cult. However, I *am* making the point that a perfectly innocent observation that seems like common sense to the detached observer can be heresy to -- and thereby invoke an extremely hostile response in -- someone who is "infected" by a particular meme. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 18:26:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A5C1505E for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:26:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA20774; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:53:39 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA44984; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:53:37 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990420105336.B40482@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:53:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Amancio Hasty , Marius Bendiksen Cc: Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: <199904190926.CAA41659@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199904190926.CAA41659@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 02:26:14AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 2:26:14 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > Hi, > > Yes, I agree that cross posting is bad and that in general people should not > do it . In fact, cross posting is good. The bad thing is that people on both lists get multiple copies, and that's a mail implementation issue. No, I don't know how to solve it (if it were easy, it would already have been solved). But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that people who cross-post often do it because they believe that it's relevant to each list. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 18:31:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9095150CA for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:31:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA58573; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:28:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904200128.SAA58573@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:53:36 +0930." <19990420105336.B40482@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:28:39 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Isn't there a message ID associated with each mail message so if I mail something to chat and -current the message should have the same ID and if so you can eliminate the copy . I may be missing something here. > On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 2:26:14 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Yes, I agree that cross posting is bad and that in general people should not > > do it . > > In fact, cross posting is good. The bad thing is that people on both > lists get multiple copies, and that's a mail implementation issue. > No, I don't know how to solve it (if it were easy, it would already > have been solved). But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that > people who cross-post often do it because they believe that it's > relevant to each list. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 18:55:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B63F514DFF for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:55:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA20911; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:22:33 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA45013; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:22:31 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990420112230.C40482@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:22:30 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Amancio Hasty Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: <19990420105336.B40482@lemis.com> <199904200128.SAA58573@rah.star-gate.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199904200128.SAA58573@rah.star-gate.com>; from Amancio Hasty on Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 06:28:39PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 18:28:39 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 2:26:14 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Yes, I agree that cross posting is bad and that in general people should not >>> do it . >> >> In fact, cross posting is good. The bad thing is that people on both >> lists get multiple copies, and that's a mail implementation issue. >> No, I don't know how to solve it (if it were easy, it would already >> have been solved). But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that >> people who cross-post often do it because they believe that it's >> relevant to each list. > > Isn't there a message ID associated with each mail message so if I > mail something to chat and -current the message should have the > same ID and if so you can eliminate the copy . I may be missing > something here. Sure. Your message had: Message-Id: <199904200128.SAA58573@rah.star-gate.com>, and I got two copies. How could that be caught earlier? Or if the mailing lists are on two different systems? The first chance to compare the message IDs is at the destination system. Mail readers *could* do that, and it's probably a good option, but it doesn't stop two messages from being delivered, and that's Marius's issue. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 18:56: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 590A514E15 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 18:56:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA01465; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:53:13 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA15331; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:53:12 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990420105336.B40482@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:53:12 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Bill Swingle , Marius Bendiksen , Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20-Apr-99 Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 2:26:14 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Yes, I agree that cross posting is bad and that in general people should not >> do it . > > In fact, cross posting is good. The bad thing is that people on both > lists get multiple copies, and that's a mail implementation issue. > No, I don't know how to solve it (if it were easy, it would already > have been solved). But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that > people who cross-post often do it because they believe that it's > relevant to each list. It's one thing to cross post an announcement. It's another thing to cross post an extended conversation of 20+ messages. It's that stuff that is bothersome, and expensive to some folks. > Greg --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 19: 5:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8805915659 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:05:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA58775; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:02:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904200202.TAA58775@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:22:30 +0930." <19990420112230.C40482@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:02:33 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Okay, I guess we can not eliminate duplicate messages with the same ID at the "ehem" mail list processing point even with the assistance of mail tools such as MH's slocal or procmail which can filter out the duplicate messages automatically. Amancio > On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 18:28:39 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >> On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 2:26:14 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> Yes, I agree that cross posting is bad and that in general people should not > >>> do it . > >> > >> In fact, cross posting is good. The bad thing is that people on both > >> lists get multiple copies, and that's a mail implementation issue. > >> No, I don't know how to solve it (if it were easy, it would already > >> have been solved). But we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that > >> people who cross-post often do it because they believe that it's > >> relevant to each list. > > > > Isn't there a message ID associated with each mail message so if I > > mail something to chat and -current the message should have the > > same ID and if so you can eliminate the copy . I may be missing > > something here. > > Sure. Your message had: Message-Id: > <199904200128.SAA58573@rah.star-gate.com>, and I got two copies. How > could that be caught earlier? Or if the mailing lists are on two > different systems? The first chance to compare the message IDs is at > the destination system. Mail readers *could* do that, and it's > probably a good option, but it doesn't stop two messages from being > delivered, and that's Marius's issue. > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 19:28:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 856EC14DB4 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:28:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08063; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:25:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey Cc: Amancio Hasty , Marius Bendiksen , Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:53:36 +0930." <19990420105336.B40482@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:25:52 -0700 Message-ID: <8061.924575152@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In fact, cross posting is good. The bad thing is that people on both > lists get multiple copies, and that's a mail implementation issue. I think you're ignoring human nature here - one cross-posted message invariably (and I mean almost *always*) leads to every single reply which follows it going also to multiple lists. For really contraversial threads, you can also count on the cross-posting fest to eventually mutate to the point where the messages being cross posted have nothing to do with *any* of the lists they're being posted to, making hash out of the "relevance" argument. And don't say it doesn't happen because I've probably chewed you out as much as anyone for ignoring inappropriate cc lines in your own replies. :-) When you're dealing with hundreds of emails, the predilection for simply replying without ever even looking at the cc lines is very strong indeed. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 19:36:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C7E315038 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:36:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA21184; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:03:48 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA45121; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:03:47 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990420120347.I40482@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:03:47 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: <19990420105336.B40482@lemis.com> <8061.924575152@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <8061.924575152@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 07:25:52PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 19:25:52 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> In fact, cross posting is good. The bad thing is that people on both >> lists get multiple copies, and that's a mail implementation issue. > > I think you're ignoring human nature here - one cross-posted message > invariably (and I mean almost *always*) leads to every single reply > which follows it going also to multiple lists. For really > contraversial threads, you can also count on the cross-posting fest to > eventually mutate to the point where the messages being cross posted > have nothing to do with *any* of the lists they're being posted to, > making hash out of the "relevance" argument. Agreed. That's a separate issue, though. I was referring to a case where the message really is relevant to several groups, and most members are on more than one of them. An allied problem is when following up to a message, it's appropriate to include the people personally, even though they're on the list, so that their mail reader has the opportunity to flag the message accordingly--thus I have replied to you and cc:d -chat, even though you're on -chat. > And don't say it doesn't happen because I've probably chewed you out > as much as anyone for ignoring inappropriate cc lines in your own > replies. :-) Sure. I certainly wasn't going to say that. But I do change the subject line where appropriate. And to avoid more chewing out, I've taken the others off the cc: list. > When you're dealing with hundreds of emails, the predilection for > simply replying without ever even looking at the cc lines is very > strong indeed. Right, that's why we've caught you at it, too :-) Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 19:44:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C09E915038 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:44:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r39.bfm.org [208.18.213.135]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id WAA08739; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:40:56 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990419214106.00925800@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:41:06 -0500 To: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990419171213.03ed5730@localhost> References: <199904191711.MAA26033@hostigos.otherwhen.com> <4.2.0.32.19990419093753.0454e490@localhost> <19990418080429.A37740@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 18:47 19-04-1999 -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >Mike Avery has raised many good points here. > >>If you compare OS's to religous movements (5), religous movements >>rarely rely on a single way of getting converts. Even churches work >>hard and in varied ways to get visitors through the door, and to keep >>them in the fold after that. Advertisements, special programs, >>personal testimony, booths at fairs, billboards, television programs, >>courting the news media for coverage all have their place. And none >>of them are enough by themselves. Guess what, I had to chuckle when I saw that. The fact is that the world's largest religion (as far as number of members goes), namely Buddhism, does not seek converts. Never did either. Never faught in religious wars. Its founder was reluctant to teach his disciples. Even to this day, when someone wants to convert to Buddhism, monks question his reasons and try to find out if there was a way for him to stay in his old religion, and only if there is no other way do they say OK, good idea. And the Buddha himself predicted that within 500 years of his time no one would even remember him or his teachings. That was 2500 years ago. I personally like the fact that no FreeBSD evangelists knock on my doors. I am also very happy that I discovered FreeBSD. I installed it originally on a 50 Meg partition I cut out of my 1 Gig Windows hard disk. I did that only because the host of my web site (pair Networks) uses FreeBSD, and I wanted to be able to develop my CGI programs without having to ftp and telnet to them everytime I changed something. Well, by now, my FreeBSD uses 8 Gig of disk space, and Windows only 3, of which 2 are shared with FreeBSD anyway. I also spend most of my time in FreeBSD now. I go to Windows mostly to read and write my email since I have years of messages stored in Eudora and do not want to lose continuity. Please do not underestimate the intelligence of the people. They will come just as I have come. There is nothing more powerful than the feeling that one has discovered something worth its while on one's own. Adam --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 19:44:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA52115648 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:44:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08237; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:42:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:03:47 +0930." <19990420120347.I40482@lemis.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:42:17 -0700 Message-ID: <8235.924576137@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Right, that's why we've caught you at it, too :-) You bet, I'm only human*! :-) - Jordan * Or a PERL script, depending on whom you believe. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 19:53: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8C2315659 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:53:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA08282; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:50:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:41:06 CDT." <3.0.6.32.19990419214106.00925800@mail.bfm.org> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:50:24 -0700 Message-ID: <8280.924576624@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Guess what, I had to chuckle when I saw that. The fact is that the world's > largest religion (as far as number of members goes), namely Buddhism, does > not seek converts. Never did either. Never faught in religious wars. Its > founder was reluctant to teach his disciples. Even to this day, when > someone wants to convert to Buddhism, monks question his reasons and try to > find out if there was a way for him to stay in his old religion, and only > if there is no other way do they say OK, good idea. And the Buddha himself > predicted that within 500 years of his time no one would even remember him > or his teachings. That was 2500 years ago. That's a pretty cool analogy and I'll have to remember it. I always wondered at the sincerity of any religion that required people to be virtually dragged in by the hair, either through guilt or literally at the point of a sword (the crusades). I guess it's no coincidence that of all the world's religions, Buddhism is the only one I actually respect. :-) - Jordan (who also spent 13 years living with a devout Zen buddhist girlfriend and now captures and frees his domestic insects rather than swatting them :). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 19:59:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D8115691 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 19:59:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id MAA04679; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:27:24 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA06423; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:27:26 +0930 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:27:25 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Brett Glass , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990419214106.00925800@mail.bfm.org> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > I go to Windows mostly to read and write my email since I have > years of messages stored in Eudora and do not want to lose continuity. Have you looked at using Netscape to read mail? At least the Windows version has an option to convert mailboxes from Eudora. Even if the Unix versions do not, you could install NS under Windows, convert there, and then (probably) read them using NS for UNIX. Kris ----- The Feynman problem-solving algorithm: 1. Write down the problem 2. Think real hard 3. Write down the solution To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 20:10:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lcremeans.erols.com (lcremeans.erols.com [216.164.87.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65C9B15648 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 20:10:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@lcremeans.erols.com) Received: (from lee@localhost) by lcremeans.erols.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id XAA02647; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:06:20 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990419230620.A2616@erols.com> Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:06:20 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Kris Kennaway , "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics References: <3.0.6.32.19990419214106.00925800@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Kris Kennaway on Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 12:27:25PM +0930 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE Organization: My room? Are you crazy? :) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 12:27:25PM +0930, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > > I go to Windows mostly to read and write my email since I have > > years of messages stored in Eudora and do not want to lose continuity. > > Have you looked at using Netscape to read mail? At least the Windows version > has an option to convert mailboxes from Eudora. Even if the Unix versions do > not, you could install NS under Windows, convert there, and then (probably) > read them using NS for UNIX. Even better: I believe Eudora, by default, uses Unix mbox format to store messages, the same as sendmail. You could just copy them over, in theory. -lee -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | | lcremeans@erols.com | http://wakky.dyndns.org/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 21:53:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C34714C29 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 21:53:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu) Received: from pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (pegasus.cc.ucf.edu [132.170.240.30]) Ident [ewayte] by pegasus.cc.ucf.edu (Postfix) with SMTP id A56023B02; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:13:53 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:13:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric Wayte To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Amancio Hasty , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , "Daniel C. Sobral" , Alex Zepeda , Nate Williams , FreeBSD Chat , wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: newbus and modem(s) In-Reply-To: <199904192310.TAA04193@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > Boy! That's a big one. > > I'll offer this: > > Advancing the state of the art in the tradition of BSD while > maintaining a reasonable balance between concerns of portability > and performance. > > As soon as I read this, the theme from ABC's Wide World of Sports popped into my head: "Spanning the globe to bring you the constant variety of code, From the thrill of ./configure, to the agony of make..." Eric Wayte, DBA Univ. of Central Florida ewayte@pegasus.cc.ucf.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 22:25: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DC3415151 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA01298; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:22:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA03483; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:22:18 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990419230620.A2616@erols.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:22:18 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Lee Cremeans Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "G. Adam Stanislav" , Kris Kennaway Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20-Apr-99 Lee Cremeans wrote: > Even better: I believe Eudora, by default, uses Unix mbox format to store > messages, the same as sendmail. You could just copy them over, in theory. In fact. Did it this past summer, and finally all but free'd myself of Windows. (Still have it for my occasional gaming session.) > -lee --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 22:28:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1793C15172 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:28:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.152.128]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990420052800.EPJA5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:28:00 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: Darren Pilgrim Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:26:20 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FW: Re: NetBSD: Certified mom-ready. Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <371C0F4A.45AD508C@uswest.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990420052800.EPJA5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 19 Apr 99, at 22:23, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Alex Zepeda wrote: > > On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > >> You mean to tell me, that in San Francisco, with one of the greatest > >> and most knowledgable drag queen populations in the worls, that you > >> can't make a guy like Jordan look like a girl? > > > > Nothing twenty pounds of duct tape, and some strategically placed crisco > > can't solve, but the true question is: would a sober Jordan oblige? > > Could you get him drunk enough in the first place? What makes you think he would need to? -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/freebsd/ NZ FreeBSD User Group - http://www.nzfug.nz.freebsd.org/ The Racing System - http://www.racingsystem.com/racingsystem.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 22:35:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2335E1534A for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:35:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.56.16]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA35EB; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:32:46 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01199; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:32:56 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8235.924576137@zippy.cdrom.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:32:56 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Greg Lehey , Wes Peters Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20-Apr-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> Right, that's why we've caught you at it, too :-) > > You bet, I'm only human*! :-) > > - Jordan > > * Or a PERL script, depending on whom you believe. Well, we cannot trust a PERL script to make us belief that Jordan is human now can you? I mean: freefall$ ll 24 -rwxr-xr-x 1 jordan jordan - 24195 Feb 16 1992 jordan.pl Can't we market this as the ultimate AI? =) Given, occasionally it's not being very co-operative *grin* --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 22:43:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20BC9156A5; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 22:43:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA22123; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:10:34 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA45463; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:10:32 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990420151032.X40482@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:10:32 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Darren Pilgrim , Alex Zepeda Cc: Wes Peters , Bill Fumerola , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , FreeBSD Chat , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Changing Jordan to Cinderella (was: NetBSD: Certified mom-ready.) References: <371C0F4A.45AD508C@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <371C0F4A.45AD508C@uswest.net>; from Darren Pilgrim on Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 10:23:22PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat before I get yet another chewing-out] On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 22:23:22 -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Alex Zepeda wrote: >> On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >>> You mean to tell me, that in San Francisco, with one of the greatest >>> and most knowledgable drag queen populations in the worls, that you >>> can't make a guy like Jordan look like a girl? >> >> Nothing twenty pounds of duct tape, and some strategically placed crisco >> can't solve, but the true question is: would a sober Jordan oblige? > > Could you get him drunk enough in the first place? I don't think so. He doesn't drink. Another thing that makes me suspicious. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 23:44:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A316815225 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:44:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id XAA78375; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:41:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:41:52 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: announce@bafug.org Subject: April Berkeley BAFUG meeting Message-ID: <19990419234152.A78346@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- Berkeley BAFUG -- The Berkeley chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, April 22nd. This months meeting will be held at Transbay / UC Computers at 2569 Telegraph in Berkeley. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> Due to an emergency family matter, our main speaker will not be able to attent our meeting. This months meeting will be your basic Pizza & Schmooz get together ==> Josef Grosch will talk about BAFUGs plans for the upcoming Install-a-thon to be held on April 24th at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Cow Palace in Daly City. See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at UC Computers / Transbay in Berkeley. UC Computers is located at 2569 Telegraph Ave. between Parker & Baker Streets. There is limited parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By AC Transit bus: By AC Transit bus: Routes 40 El Cerrito - Bayfair, 64 Downtown Berkeley - Merritt College, 51 Berkeley - Oakland - Alameda, 52 U.C. Village - U.C. Campus, 7 Del Norte BART - Rockridge BART, and "U" San Francisco - Berkeley stop nearby. By BART: From the downtown Berkeley station, walk uphill (east) one block on Allston Way to Oxford Street at the edge of the UC campus, turning right (south) two blocks to turn left (east) onto Bancroft Way. Walk three blocks uphill to turn right (south) onto Telegraph Avenue. Transbay/UC Computers is 5 1/2 short blocks ahead, at 2569 Telegraph. By Car: By car: From I-80, exit eastbound on University Avenue, and proceed two miles to the end, turning right (south) on Oxford Street. Proceed 11 blocks along Oxford (which becomes Fulton Street) to turn left (east) on Parker Street. Go three blocks to Telegraph, and park where you can. Transbay/UC Computers is at 2569 Telegraph. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.transbay.net http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before April 22nd so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Apr 19 23:52:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dingo.tmbg.net (dingo.tmbg.net [203.46.1.213]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCEE3151E9 for ; Mon, 19 Apr 1999 23:52:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from steven@dingo.tmbg.net) Received: (from steven@localhost) by dingo.tmbg.net (8.9.2/8.8.7) id QAA09827; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:51:07 +1000 (EST) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:51:06 +1000 From: Steven Lawrance To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: "G . Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Message-ID: <19990420165106.A9473@sia.net.au> References: <3.0.6.32.19990419214106.00925800@mail.bfm.org> <19990419230620.A2616@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990419230620.A2616@erols.com>; from Lee Cremeans on Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 11:06:20PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Apr 19, 1999 at 11:06:20PM -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > Even better: I believe Eudora, by default, uses Unix mbox format to store > messages, the same as sendmail. You could just copy them over, in theory. Indeed, I just tried it for myself. Any mailer like mutt, pine, elm will do the job. Now, if only I could get GnuPG (http://www.gnupg.org/) to compile under FreeBSD... ideas, anyone? -- Steven Lawrance KeyID 2048/0x9F030653 Fingerprint: EA 52 BF 9F 3A 75 73 9F A2 50 1E 50 2F CB 93 64 It's a good thing we don't get all the government we pay for. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 0:40:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (tele-post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33DCC14C1B; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 00:40:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10ZV6a-00030p-0K; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:38:05 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA02058; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:37:24 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA01584; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:37:22 +0100 Message-ID: <371C2E7C.1F07F64A@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:36:28 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Darren Pilgrim , Alex Zepeda , Wes Peters , Bill Fumerola , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , FreeBSD Chat , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Changing Jordan to Cinderella (was: NetBSD: Certified mom-ready.) References: <371C0F4A.45AD508C@uswest.net> <19990420151032.X40482@lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > [moved to -chat before I get yet another chewing-out] > > On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 22:23:22 -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > Alex Zepeda wrote: > >> On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > >>> You mean to tell me, that in San Francisco, with one of the greatest > >>> and most knowledgable drag queen populations in the worls, that you > >>> can't make a guy like Jordan look like a girl? > >> > >> Nothing twenty pounds of duct tape, and some strategically placed crisco > >> can't solve, but the true question is: would a sober Jordan oblige? > > > > Could you get him drunk enough in the first place? > > I don't think so. He doesn't drink. Another thing that makes me > suspicious. > Hmm, did you know that "Jordan K Hubbard" is an anagram of "Drunk had bar job"? (See http://www.anagramgenius.com/server.html if you want to have some fun with anagrams. You enter the name/phrase, select some options, and they e-mail you the results) > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 1: 0:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AE5C14C1B; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:00:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA22612; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:27:45 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id RAA45843; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:27:41 +0930 (CST) Message-ID: <19990420172741.C40482@lemis.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:27:41 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Smoker Van Cc: Darren Pilgrim , Alex Zepeda , Wes Peters , Bill Fumerola , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , FreeBSD Chat , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Changing Jordan to Cinderella (was: NetBSD: Certified mom-ready.) References: <371C0F4A.45AD508C@uswest.net> <19990420151032.X40482@lemis.com> <371C2E7C.1F07F64A@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <371C2E7C.1F07F64A@uk.radan.com>; from Mark Ovens on Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 08:36:28AM +0100 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 20 April 1999 at 8:36:28 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> [moved to -chat before I get yet another chewing-out] >> >> On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 22:23:22 -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >>> Alex Zepeda wrote: >>>> On Mon, 19 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >>>>> You mean to tell me, that in San Francisco, with one of the greatest >>>>> and most knowledgable drag queen populations in the worls, that you >>>>> can't make a guy like Jordan look like a girl? >>>> >>>> Nothing twenty pounds of duct tape, and some strategically placed crisco >>>> can't solve, but the true question is: would a sober Jordan oblige? >>> >>> Could you get him drunk enough in the first place? >> >> I don't think so. He doesn't drink. Another thing that makes me >> suspicious. > > Hmm, did you know that "Jordan K Hubbard" is an anagram of "Drunk had > bar job"? Well, I suppose I do now. Do I see it that you propose to change this to "Drunk had bra job"? > (See http://www.anagramgenius.com/server.html if you want to have some > fun with anagrams. You enter the name/phrase, select some options, and > they e-mail you the results) Ah, that's no fun. One of the nicest looking programs I ever saw was the following, from the obfuscated C contest, which does it locally. I have a script which runs it (the executable is called ag3): ag3 long a [4],b[ 4],c[4] ,d[0400],e=1; typedef struct f{long g ,h,i[4] ,j;struct f*k;}f;f g,* l[4096 ]; char h[256],*m,k=3; long n (o, p,q)long*o,*p,*q;{ long r =4,s,i=0;for(;r--;s=i^ *o^*p, i=i&*p|(i|*p)&~*o++,*q ++=s,p ++);return i;}t(i,p)long*p ;{*c=d [i],n(a,c,b),n(p,b,p);}u(j)f*j;{j->h =(j->g =j->i[0]|j->i[1]|j->i[2]|j->i[3])&4095;}v( j,s)f* j; {int i; for(j->k->k&&v(j->k, ' '),fseek( stdin, j->j, 0);i=getchar(),putchar(i-'\n'?i:s),i- '\n';);}w(o,r,j,x,p)f*o,*j;long p;{f q;int s,i=o->h;q.k=o;r>i?j=l[r=i]:r>1, s|=s >>2,s|=s>>4,s |=s>>8 ,j=l[r =((r&i |s)&~(s>>1))-1&i]):0;--x;for (;x&&!(p&i);p>>=1);for(;!x&&j;n(o->i,j->i,q. i),u(&q),q.g||(q.j=j->j,v(&q,'\n')),j=j->k);for(;x;j=x ?j->k:0){for(;!j&&((r=(r&i)-1&i)-i&&(r&p)?2:(x=0));j=l[r]);! x||(j->g&~o->g)||n (o->i,j->i,q.i)||( u(&q), q.j=j ->j,q.g?w(&q ,r,j->k,x ,p):v(&q, '\n')); }}y(){f j;char *z,*p; for(;m ? j.j= ftell( stdin) ,7,(m= gets(m ))||w( &g,315 *13,l[ 4095] ,k,64* 64)&0: 0;n(g .i,j.i, b)||(u (&j),j. k=l[j.h],l[j.h]= &j,y())){for(z= p=h;*z&&( d[*z++]||(p=0)););for(z=p?n(j.i ,j.i,j.i)+h:""; *z;t(*z++,j.i));}}main(o,p)char** p; {for(;m = *++p;)for(;*m- '-'?*m:(k= -atoi(m))&0;d[*m]||(d[*m ]=e,e<<=1),t(*m++,g.i)); u(& g),m=h ,y();} Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 1:27:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CCEB14F46 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 01:27:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id KAA11605; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:25:08 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA26392; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:25:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:25:08 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Sue Blake Cc: Amancio Hasty , Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-Reply-To: <19990419200138.29295@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The question is what should you do when people do cross post? > Kill the bastards. Finally a decent suggestion. - Marius - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 2: 6:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 806F415052 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 02:06:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10ZWRf-0008jW-0C; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:03:55 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id KAA02458; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:02:54 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA02755; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:02:52 +0100 Message-ID: <371C4286.85F13EAE@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:01:58 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Changing Jordan to Cinderella (was: NetBSD: Certified mom-ready.) References: <371C0F4A.45AD508C@uswest.net> <19990420151032.X40482@lemis.com> <371C2E7C.1F07F64A@uk.radan.com> <19990420172741.C40482@lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Tuesday, 20 April 1999 at 8:36:28 +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > > (See http://www.anagramgenius.com/server.html if you want to have some > > fun with anagrams. You enter the name/phrase, select some options, and > > they e-mail you the results) > > Ah, that's no fun. One of the nicest looking programs I ever saw was > the following, from the obfuscated C contest, which does it locally. > I have a script which runs it (the executable is called ag3): > > ag3 [obfuscated C code snipped] :-) I like it. Thanks. -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 4:38:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AF5E14CF1 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 04:38:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id VAA10273; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:06:12 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA06364; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:06:14 +0930 Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:06:14 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: MattR116@aol.com Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers-digest V4 #460 In-Reply-To: <3fb4cf36.244dae21@aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 MattR116@aol.com wrote: > UNSUBSCRIBE ME TOO :-) Kris ----- The Feynman problem-solving algorithm: 1. Write down the problem 2. Think real hard 3. Write down the solution To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 5:17: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99DFF15711 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 05:16:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id WAA10623; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:14:15 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990420221411.02722@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:14:11 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers-digest V4 #460 References: <3fb4cf36.244dae21@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Kris Kennaway on Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 09:06:14PM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 09:06:14PM +0930, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 MattR116@aol.com wrote: > > > UNSUBSCRIBE > > ME TOO I don't care how many of you shout at me to unsubscribe, I won't do it! > :-) ;-) -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 6: 5:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 44C3D14DB1 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:05:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 20401 invoked by alias); 20 Apr 1999 13:02:45 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 20358 invoked by uid 0); 20 Apr 1999 13:02:44 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 20 Apr 1999 13:02:44 -0000 Message-ID: <371C7AE3.36FA3E12@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:02:27 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: Sue Blake , Amancio Hasty , Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marius Bendiksen wrote: >>> The question is what should you do when people do cross post? >> Kill the bastards. > Finally a decent suggestion. Aye, a good suggestion indeed. However, ps aux | grep bastard doesn't return any pids. Should I be looking for the bastards under a different name? -- I don't like four lines! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 6:12: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E800015052 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:11:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id XAA10796; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:09:22 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990420230918.18733@welearn.com.au> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:09:18 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Amancio Hasty , Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: <371C7AE3.36FA3E12@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <371C7AE3.36FA3E12@uswest.net>; from Darren Pilgrim on Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 06:02:27AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 06:02:27AM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Marius Bendiksen wrote: > >>> The question is what should you do when people do cross post? > >> Kill the bastards. > > Finally a decent suggestion. > > Aye, a good suggestion indeed. However, > > ps aux | grep bastard > > doesn't return any pids. Should I be looking for the bastards under > a different name? Perhaps they're big bastards, in which case they might not appear with the command as you used it. Try this one instead: ps auxww | grep bastard -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 6:21:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B377C15755 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:21:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 24453 invoked by alias); 20 Apr 1999 13:19:10 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 24427 invoked by uid 0); 20 Apr 1999 13:19:10 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 20 Apr 1999 13:19:10 -0000 Message-ID: <371C7EBD.8929935D@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:18:53 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers-digest V4 #460 References: <3fb4cf36.244dae21@aol.com> <19990420221411.02722@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 09:06:14PM +0930, Kris Kennaway wrote: >> On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 MattR116@aol.com wrote: >> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE >> >> ME TOO > > I don't care how many of you shout at me to unsubscribe, I won't do it! Tsk-tsk. Sue, you haven't been keeping up on your AOL rules of chat room and e-mail ettitquette. These rules, written in multicoloured all caps blinking HTML for emphasis and ease of reading, clearly state that the next reply in the thread should have contained only the following line: SEND PRONO FTP LIST However, given current fashion, "U VV1LL 61\/3 /\/\3 VV4r32 0r 1 VV1l /\/u|<3 U!!!#&@%$" is acceptable as well. >> :-) > ;-) 8-) -- I don't like four lines! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 6:26:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EED515758 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:26:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id PAA82694; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:24:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Sue Blake , Amancio Hasty , Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: <371C7AE3.36FA3E12@uswest.net> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 20 Apr 1999 15:24:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: Darren Pilgrim's message of "Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:02:27 -0700" Message-ID: Lines: 17 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim writes: > Aye, a good suggestion indeed. However, > > ps aux | grep bastard > > doesn't return any pids. Should I be looking for the bastards under > a different name? Yes. Try this: # awk -F: '$1 == "wheel" { print "^(USER|" $4 ") " }' /etc/group | tr ',' '|' >goodguys # ps -aux | egrep -vf goodguys | awk '{ print $2 }' | xargs kill -9 DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 6:37:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A78614FEA for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:37:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-057.thuntek.net [207.66.52.57]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA17458; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:34:57 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <371C822F.5AAE408F@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:33:35 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics References: <4.2.0.32.19990419093753.0454e490@localhost> <19990418080429.A37740@holly.dyndns.org> <4.2.0.32.19990419171213.03ed5730@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > Mike Avery has raised many good points here. > > >If you compare OS's to religous movements (5), religous movements > >rarely rely on a single way of getting converts. Even churches work > >hard and in varied ways to get visitors through the door, and to keep > >them in the fold after that. Advertisements, special programs, > >personal testimony, booths at fairs, billboards, television programs, > >courting the news media for coverage all have their place. And none > >of them are enough by themselves. If we want to grow, are we doing > >enough? As a newbie, I don't know, I just want to raise the question. > > There are, indeed, many modes of advocacy, just as there are many > modes of advertising. > > To understand why, it helps to see FreeBSD's situation from the > perspective of "memetics" -- a set of useful ideas based on > concepts from the fields of sociology, psychology, genetics, and > comparative religion. > [snipped] Now, _that_ was well said, non-judgemental and very much worth reading. -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 6:38: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18DD014FEA for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:38:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10ZagY-0001fS-0B; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:35:35 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id OAA03542; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:34:55 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA07516; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:34:52 +0100 Message-ID: <371C8247.102C6FD3@uk.radan.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:33:59 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: <371C7AE3.36FA3E12@uswest.net> <19990420230918.18733@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 06:02:27AM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > >>> The question is what should you do when people do cross post? > > >> Kill the bastards. > > > Finally a decent suggestion. > > > > Aye, a good suggestion indeed. However, > > > > ps aux | grep bastard > > > > doesn't return any pids. Should I be looking for the bastards under > > a different name? > > Perhaps they're big bastards, in which case they might not appear with the > command as you used it. Try this one instead: > > ps auxww | grep bastard > Hmm, aren't bastards illegal child processes? Maybe they've already been killed off by their parents. > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 6:50:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3190A14FEA for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 06:50:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r40.bfm.org [208.18.213.136]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id JAA06756; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:49:31 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990420084338.00930570@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:43:38 -0500 To: Eric Wayte From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: newbus and modem(s) Cc: FreeBSD Chat In-Reply-To: References: <199904192310.TAA04193@bellsouth.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 00:13 20-04-1999 -0400, Eric Wayte wrote: >As soon as I read this, the theme from ABC's Wide World of Sports popped >into my head: > >"Spanning the globe to bring you the constant variety of code, > From the thrill of ./configure, to the agony of make..." Oh, is that's what it says? I always thought ABC was bragging about SPAMMING the globe... The first time I heard it I was wondering if they realized spamming was a bad word on the Internet. Of course, I was at work and not really paying attention to the TV, so I guess I misheard. :) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 7: 4:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CC4B14FEA for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:04:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from your-name (TC6-dial-152-212.oldslip.inch.com [207.240.212.152]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.1a/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA08754 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:59:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199904201359.JAA08754@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:03:11 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: FreeBSD friendly hardware vendor? Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone could recommend a FreeBSD friendly hardware reseller? The one I used to buy from (atipa) seems to be going the way of Linux. They stopped listing FreeBSD in their list of pre-isntalled OS and their re-designed site has Linux links on the top. I have a local reseller I use for Win stuff, but they have 0 knowledge of FreeBSD. I have looked at the gallery before, and just checked it again. Most stores don't seem to be doing much of an effort to attract FreeBSD users (i.e. their FreeBSD offers are stale). To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 7:25:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5A73157C4 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 07:25:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA27633; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:22:51 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <371C8DBA.A2CF1DB0@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:22:50 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD Chat , Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > On 20-Apr-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> Right, that's why we've caught you at it, too :-) > > > > You bet, I'm only human*! :-) > > > > - Jordan > > > > * Or a PERL script, depending on whom you believe. > > Well, we cannot trust a PERL script to make us belief that Jordan is human > now can you? > > I mean: > > freefall$ ll > > 24 -rwxr-xr-x 1 jordan jordan - 24195 Feb 16 1992 jordan.pl > > Can't we market this as the ultimate AI? =) > Given, occasionally it's not being very co-operative *grin* Maybe we can get Illiad to incorporate Jordan into one of the AI story lines. Jordan vs. the Sith Lord? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 8:15:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0118D152C2 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:15:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18551; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:12:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990420075641.00b1a5f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:11:05 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990419214106.00925800@mail.bfm.org> References: <4.2.0.32.19990419171213.03ed5730@localhost> <199904191711.MAA26033@hostigos.otherwhen.com> <4.2.0.32.19990419093753.0454e490@localhost> <19990418080429.A37740@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:41 PM 4/19/99 -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >Guess what, I had to chuckle when I saw that. The fact is that the world's >largest religion (as far as number of members goes), namely Buddhism, does >not seek converts. Never did either. Never faught in religious wars. Its >founder was reluctant to teach his disciples. Even to this day, when >someone wants to convert to Buddhism, monks question his reasons and try to >find out if there was a way for him to stay in his old religion, and only >if there is no other way do they say OK, good idea. And the Buddha himself >predicted that within 500 years of his time no one would even remember him >or his teachings. That was 2500 years ago. This is true of many branches of Buddhism, but is a bit of an oversimplification. First, the denial of a desire to evangelize is often seen as one of Zen Buddhism's many games of cognitive dissonance. In some ways, it plays on the ironic meme expressed by Groucho Marx and Woody Allen, among others: "I wouldn't want to be part of any club that wants me as a member." Also, not all Buddhist groups have the traits you mention. The most egregious example of a Buddhist group that went to the other extreme in terms of evangelism is the "Nishirin Shoshun" cult. This group does actively evangelize, and at its peak in the late 70's and early 80's had tens of thousands of members gathered in auditoriums, fervently chanting the Lotus Sutra. Many people adopt Buddhism because most varieties of it are "low overhead" as religions/philosophies go. They don't require a great deal of the member, e.g. going to church services or fasting or prayer. In fact, many Buddhists are members of another religion as well. (In Japan, it's common for people to embrace both Shinto and Buddhism.) It's easy to say "I'm a Buddhist." It requires far less commitment than, say, reformatting one's hard disk for a new operating system. ;-) To make a another analogy, it's kind of like running a Java Virtual Machine: you can do it within your own OS, whatever OS that might be. (This is an interesting argument for bringing FreeBSD emulation to other OSes, by the way. By doing so, one could give it Buddhism's adaptive trait of peaceful coexistence.) >I personally like the fact that no FreeBSD evangelists knock on my doors. This would make you a candidate for one particular mode of transmission of the FreeBSD memes. However, as I've mentioned earlier, the most successful memes have multiple vectors and modes of transmission. >There is nothing more powerful than the feeling that >one has discovered something worth its while on one's own. This is true for you, but I don't think it is for everyone. In the computer world especially, the overwhelming majority of users want -- in fact, demand! -- operating systems which are VISIBLY attracting large user bases and portfolios of third party applications. --Brett Glass P.S. -- Has anyone here ever heard a song called "Zen Gospel Singing?" It's a wonderful spoof -- a Zen Buddhist "hymn," done in the style of a gospel song. The multi-level irony is that the juxtaposition of Christian musical cliches and bad puns about both American Christianity and Zen Buddhism is, well, very Zen-like. I once joined in an impromptu performance where a group of musicians sang it a capella, in 4+ part harmony. Great fun. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 8:16:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724FD1579B for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:16:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA05653; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:29:57 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:29:56 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Kris Kennaway Cc: MattR116@aol.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers-digest V4 #460 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 MattR116@aol.com wrote: > > > UNSUBSCRIBE > > ME TOO reaching for high calibre pistol.... "did you happen to read the attached message at the bottom of EVERY EMAIL on this list?" "no" *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM* "unnnng" > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Quite literally it means: send an email to majordomo@freebsd.org with the only contents being the line: unsubscribe freebsd-chat thanks and could someone toss me a mop? -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 8:24: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mrelay.jrc.it (mrelay.jrc.it [139.191.1.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02AB2152C2 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:24:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nick.hibma@jrc.it) Received: from elpc36.jrc.it (elpc36.jrc.it [139.191.71.36]) by mrelay.jrc.it (LMC5692) with SMTP id RAA08935 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:25:26 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:21:35 +0200 (CEST) From: Nick Hibma X-Sender: n_hibma@elpc36.jrc.it Reply-To: Nick Hibma To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Microsoft-owned email service runs on FreeBSD, Apache Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.theregister.co.uk/990419-000028.html Most probably everybody knows this already, but what surpised me was the phrasing of one the paragraphs. "It's a good question, and there's an easy answer: Microsoft would desperately like to run Hotmail with NT/IIS but when it tried to switch over, it failed. And if Microsoft cannot get NT to scale, nobody can. Hotmail runs off FreeBSD, is on version 1.2.1 of Apache - and runs on - Solaris servers. Another factoid is that Microsoft is a web site management customer of Exodus Communications (CEO Ellen Hancock, late of IBM and Apple - where she was CTO until Gil Amelio, er, left)." ..runs off FreeBSD and Solaris servers. Which part is doing what? Nick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 8:32:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F709150A4 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:32:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA01673; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:45:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:45:30 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Nick Hibma Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft-owned email service runs on FreeBSD, Apache In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Nick Hibma wrote: > > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/990419-000028.html > > Most probably everybody knows this already, but what surpised me was the > phrasing of one the paragraphs. > > > "It's a good question, and there's an easy answer: Microsoft would > desperately like to run Hotmail with NT/IIS but when it tried to switch > over, it failed. And if Microsoft cannot get NT to scale, nobody can. > Hotmail runs off FreeBSD, is on version 1.2.1 of Apache - and runs on - > Solaris servers. Another factoid is that Microsoft is a web site > management customer of Exodus Communications (CEO Ellen Hancock, late of > IBM and Apple - where she was CTO until Gil Amelio, er, left)." > > > > ..runs off FreeBSD and Solaris servers. Which part is doing what? > afaik WWW and email respectivly. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 8:39:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net (tcs7-13.netwalk.net [206.175.76.141]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90E9814E04 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:39:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA13246; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:35:21 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:38:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Nick Hibma , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft-owned email service runs on FreeBSD, Apache In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD runs the web servers. Solaris runs the backend. On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: :On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Nick Hibma wrote: : :> :> :> http://www.theregister.co.uk/990419-000028.html :> :> Most probably everybody knows this already, but what surpised me was the :> phrasing of one the paragraphs. :> :> :> "It's a good question, and there's an easy answer: Microsoft would :> desperately like to run Hotmail with NT/IIS but when it tried to switch :> over, it failed. And if Microsoft cannot get NT to scale, nobody can. :> Hotmail runs off FreeBSD, is on version 1.2.1 of Apache - and runs on - :> Solaris servers. Another factoid is that Microsoft is a web site :> management customer of Exodus Communications (CEO Ellen Hancock, late of :> IBM and Apple - where she was CTO until Gil Amelio, er, left)." :> :> :> :> ..runs off FreeBSD and Solaris servers. Which part is doing what? :> : :afaik WWW and email respectivly. : :-Alfred : : : : :To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org :with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message : : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 8:46:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C11A4157E5 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 08:46:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #3) id 10ZcA6-0009OB-00; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:10:10 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:10:10 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Message-ID: <19990420161010.A36081@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <8235.924576137@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org WARNING: bad joke ahead Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 20-Apr-99 Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> * Or a PERL script, depending on whom you believe. > > Well, we cannot trust a PERL script to make us belief that Jordan is human > now can you? > > I mean: > > freefall$ ll > > 24 -rwxr-xr-x 1 jordan jordan - 24195 Feb 16 1992 jordan.pl ^ ^ ^ Does this mean we can execute him? :-) -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 9:26:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r29.bfm.org [208.18.213.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FF9114EA6 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:26:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id LAA00227; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:23:51 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Message-Id: <199904201623.LAA00227@whizkidtech.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics In-Reply-To: from John Baldwin at "Apr 20, 1999 1:22:18 am" To: jobaldwi@vt.edu (John Baldwin) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:22:49 -0500 (CDT) Cc: lcremeans@erols.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, zen@buddhist.com, kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On 20-Apr-99 Lee Cremeans wrote: > > Even better: I believe Eudora, by default, uses Unix mbox format to store > > messages, the same as sendmail. You could just copy them over, in theory. > > In fact. Did it this past summer, and finally all but free'd myself of > Windows. (Still have it for my occasional gaming session.) Fascinating! This actually works. Thanks to all of you who replied. I tried to get pine4 at first, but the install bombed on the sed scripts in its Makefile. So, I got elm instead, and that is what I am using at this moment. It can read all of my Eudora-stored messages, straight from the Windows formatted disk. Gosh, this FreeBSD is absolutely amazing! I think I'm in love! :-) Adam P.S. I'll still have to figure out how to do certain things, such as have it use a different From field since I am subscribed to this list as zen@buddhist.com, and, most importantly, how to receive messages from my ISP. Then I can toss Eudora forever. Did I say I love FreeBSD? :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 9:36:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca [207.181.89.12]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8778114EA6 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 09:36:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca) Received: (from taob@localhost) by tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14547; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:34:17 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 12:34:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Brian Tao X-Sender: taob@tor-dev1.nbc.netcom.ca To: FREEBSD-CHAT Subject: SANS'99 attendance? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Anyone heading to Baltimore for SANS'99? -- Brian Tao (BT300, taob@risc.org) "Though this be madness, yet there is method in't" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 10:47: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lcremeans.erols.com (lcremeans.erols.com [216.164.87.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D192A15128 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 10:46:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@lcremeans.erols.com) Received: (from lee@localhost) by lcremeans.erols.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id NAA31537; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:44:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990420134407.A31517@erols.com> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:44:07 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: lcremeans@erols.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, zen@buddhist.com Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics References: <199904201623.LAA00227@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <199904201623.LAA00227@whizkidtech.net>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 11:22:49AM -0500 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE Organization: My room? Are you crazy? :) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 11:22:49AM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > P.S. I'll still have to figure out how to do certain things, such as have it > use a different From field since I am subscribed to this list as > zen@buddhist.com, I don't remember how to do this in elm, but mutt will let you set your own From: line, and if all else fails, you could alias your machine in sendmail.cf as "buddhist.com" (if your username is zen, anyway). > and, most importantly, how to receive messages from my ISP. -lee...check out /usr/ports/mail/fetchmail. -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | | lcremeans@erols.com | http://wakky.dyndns.org/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 11:44:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r42.bfm.org [208.18.213.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CE2D15037 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:44:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id NAA05137; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:41:55 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Message-Id: <199904201841.NAA05137@whizkidtech.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990420075641.00b1a5f0@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Apr 20, 1999 9:11: 5 am" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:40:49 -0500 (CDT) Cc: zen@buddhist.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is true of many branches of Buddhism, but is a bit of an > oversimplification. First, the denial of a desire to evangelize is often seen > as one of Zen Buddhism's many games of cognitive dissonance. In some ways, > it plays on the ironic meme expressed by Groucho Marx and Woody Allen, > among others: "I wouldn't want to be part of any club that wants me as > a member." Whatever you say, Brett. > >I personally like the fact that no FreeBSD evangelists knock on my doors. > > This would make you a candidate for one particular mode of transmission > of the FreeBSD memes. However, as I've mentioned earlier, the most > successful memes have multiple vectors and modes of transmission. Cute. > This is true for you, but I don't think it is for everyone. In the > computer world especially, the overwhelming majority of users want > -- in fact, demand! -- operating systems which are VISIBLY attracting > large user bases and portfolios of third party applications. Then you obviously agree with Jordan: They should either go for Windows or for FreeBSD, depending on their needs. At least until the Wine project obsoletes the need for the former. :-) Incidentally, Jordan has made a wise choice not to get involved in the war raging between Windows and Linux. As a Slovak proverb says: "Where two sides fight, the third one wins." There is also an interesting story in Greek mythology. A hero whose name escapes me (since I read the story almost 40 years ago) was to overcome a whole group of fierce warriors. And all he had was a piece of rock. Instead of throwing the rock at them, which would do him no good, he threw it into their midst. They all wanted it. They started fighting and killing each other over it, until there was only one left. But after having fought all the others, the one left was so tired that the hero had no problem overcoming him. Maybe Jordan's way is not attracting hordes of users in the short run, but he is making wise moves for the long run. If the trends continue, FreeBSD will have the last laugh. People will knock on FreeBSD doors instead of the other way round. At least, that is the way it seems to me. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 11:45:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E6EB1509C for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 11:45:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #3) id 10ZeWX-0009j9-00; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:41:29 +0100 (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:41:29 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Sue Blake Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Message-ID: <19990420184129.A37360@scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <371C7AE3.36FA3E12@uswest.net> <19990420230918.18733@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990420230918.18733@welearn.com.au> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 06:02:27AM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > >> Aye, a good suggestion indeed. However, >> >> ps aux | grep bastard >> >> doesn't return any pids. Should I be looking for the bastards under >> a different name? > > Perhaps they're big bastards, in which case they might not appear with the > command as you used it. Try this one instead: > > ps auxww | grep bastard No, because the username is always the first column with -aux anyway, it doesn't matter how long the command being run is. -- Ben Smithurst ben@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 13: 3:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r2.bfm.org [208.18.213.98]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A588714EDB for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:03:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id PAA05763; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:00:41 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:00:40 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Lee Cremeans Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Message-ID: <19990420150040.A5735@whizkidtech.net> References: <199904201623.LAA00227@whizkidtech.net> <19990420134407.A31517@erols.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990420134407.A31517@erols.com>; from Lee Cremeans on Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 01:44:07PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 01:44:07PM -0400, Lee Cremeans wrote: > I don't remember how to do this in elm, but mutt will let you set your own > From: line, and if all else fails, you could alias your machine in > sendmail.cf as "buddhist.com" (if your username is zen, anyway). Hmmm... Nice program, this mutt. I think I am going to deinstall elm. :-) Gee, so many choices in this FreeBSD world! I feel like when I first came to the US and wanted to wash my hair. I was at St. Bonaventure University, and went to the college store to buy some shampoo. But they had so many different ones. In my home country we had two types: One for light hair, one for dark. I was totally confused. Luckily, my faculty advisor happened to be in the store. So I asked him which shampoo I should get. He gave me a very strange look, then went through all the brands and said: "This one. No, this one is cheaper." That was my first lesson in shopping in the US (except it does not apply to free software :). Anyway, I like this mutt. It also appears from whatever appeared on my screen during the install that it can be used with different languages. This is very important to me (my suite of i18n tools is about to be added to the ports). > > and, most importantly, how to receive messages from my ISP. > > -lee...check out /usr/ports/mail/fetchmail. Thanks, I already received a private message with the same suggestion, and have it installed. I think I will continue using Eudora at the receiving end until I am satisfied I have everything set up properly for sending messages and am comfortable with it. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 13:33:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1F415A28 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:33:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA01057 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:30:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904202030.NAA01057@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: http://rah.star-gate.com/ldap.xml Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:30:58 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just added a simple web page as a place holder for LDAP related stuff for FreeBSD. This site is under construction. The "simple web page " is an xml page page being served with Apache + JServ + Cocoon + LotusXML + SAX + DOM 8) Some thoughts: Connect the FreeBSD community using a world wide ring of ldap servers which can hold directory informantion such as: ports directory cool freebsd sites Create a user database schema : address, telephone, http sites , organization, etc... Tutorial on how to interface to ldap . Enjoy, Amancio -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 13:50:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA6B514F14 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 13:50:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA14451; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:48:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:48:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: Rick Hamell Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: application developers [ was Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) ] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 16 Apr 1999, Rick Hamell wrote: > > > for people who talk about becoming involved with the FreeBSD project, bad bad > > way to handle people considering writing applications for it. I'm about to > > cancel one of my projects (bouncer) for example, simply because I have not > > managed to get -any- serious alpha testers, or even any feedback on it and > > it's either cancel it or move it to Linux, and I don't want to waste one of my > > machines to install Linux on. > > What is bouncer? :) You have some good points though. Even being a > relative newbie I see this problem, especially on the mailing lists. In > fact there is someone right now complaining that he's sent 5 messages and > not gotten an answer for any of them. :( I'd help... but I don't have the > experience/knowledge yet to be able to do so. Heck, I'm still trying to > figure out the differances between 2.2.8 and 3.1 and how it affects > me...:) Bouncer is an antispam/relay filter, designed to provide a nice uniform solution regardless of which mail server you use, or which version of it. It's a frustrating situation, and I would go so far as to say that the problem isn't even lack of support, but lack of feedback. App developers will tend to go where their efforts are most appreciated and most rewarded, and feedback is an incredibly important form of appreciation to people like me :) Even if it's a simple "Sorry, I don't think -anyone- will have a use for that", it's better than letting someone trudge on in utter silence and a feeling of isolation... > Perhaps part of our advocacy should be to encourage such projects? > Not just encourage a growth in the user base. For me personally there are > so many areas I'd like to contribute, the Sparc Project, the simplified > PPP installation for other newbies, increased documentation AND pointers > to that same documentation, updated CAM drivers for some of the older > Adaptec cards, etc, etc, etc. I sure that y'all have a hundred other > 'little' things that 'need' to be done too. Perchance getting somebody > else to do the little things would get them more interested in FreeBSD, > and in turn help the entire project? > I'd say the best thing anyone can do to help grow the app developer community for freebsd, is -look- at their work, their ideas, etc and give them feedback. Even if it's not a program you have any use for, commentary like "Oh, this would look a lot better if it were moved over three spaces" -helps-... if nothing else the moral support is a relief ;) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 14:24:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r7.bfm.org [208.18.213.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19D8915791 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 14:24:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id QAA00273; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:21:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 16:21:11 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: chat@FreeBSD.org Cc: vol@inter7.com Subject: FreeBSD console fonts Message-ID: <19990420162111.B226@whizkidtech.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Vol on Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 02:53:31PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, all, I just received this message, and it gave me an idea: I would be willing to set up a page on my web site informing people where to find console fonts and keyboard maps that have not yet made it to the regular distribution, if there is interest and if authors of the maps and fonts let me know. Incidentally, I have created keyboard maps for various Central-European languages as well as a better (I think) VGA font for them than the one distributed with FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE. I did that because I was looking for a Slovak keymap and did not find one. If anyone needs it (or Czech, Romanian, and other CE languages), I have it at http://www.whizkidtech.net/ISO-8859-2/ I am also happy to announce I just received news that my i18ntools is now part of /usr/ports/converters/ . Anyway, if someone knows the answer to the message I received, please let Vol know. Adam On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 02:53:31PM -0500, Vol wrote: > > Hey. I saw your site, and I'm wondering if you know where I could > pick up some Japanese console fonts and keyboard maps. I've been looking > for JIS, and EUC ircII clients as well. I'm looking for syscons fonts, > not X11 or anything. > > Thanks, > vol@inter7.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 17:39:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A318C14F80 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 17:39:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA91797 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:37:16 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:37:16 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Linux comparison page gone Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just tried to send someone to http://advisor.gartner.com/n_inbox/hotcontent/hc_2121999_3.html seems that page is no longer there. Oddly enough, that day's other two, more favorable to linux, articles are still up. :( -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 18:54:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E19814FE3 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 18:54:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA27468; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:21:35 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA53824; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:21:34 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:21:34 +091800 From: Greg Lehey To: jack Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux comparison page gone Message-ID: <19990421112134.G53374@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from jack on Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 08:37:16PM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 20 April 1999 at 20:37:16 -0400, jack wrote: > I just tried to send someone to > > http://advisor.gartner.com/n_inbox/hotcontent/hc_2121999_3.html > > seems that page is no longer there. Yes, I've noticed that too. I have a copy somewhere, but I don't know if I can let people at it. I've been planning to send them a message and see what they think. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 19:43:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from home2.stratos.net (mail.tracside.com [209.117.220.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E38B11505C for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:43:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) Received: from stratos.net [207.86.134.79] by home2.stratos.net with ESMTP (SMTPD32-4.03) id AAA3114D002E; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:40:35 EDT Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:45:08 +0000 (GMT) From: Rob Subject: Re: Cross Posting... To: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19990420112230.C40482@lemis.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Message-Id: <19990421024315.E38B11505C@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20 Apr, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 18:28:39 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: >> [extra cite levels deleted] >> Isn't there a message ID associated with each mail message so if I >> mail something to chat and -current the message should have the >> same ID and if so you can eliminate the copy . I may be missing >> something here. > > Sure. Your message had: Message-Id: > <199904200128.SAA58573@rah.star-gate.com>, and I got two copies. How > could that be caught earlier? Or if the mailing lists are on two > different systems? The first chance to compare the message IDs is at > the destination system. Mail readers *could* do that, and it's > probably a good option, but it doesn't stop two messages from being > delivered, and that's Marius's issue. > > Greg This is far fetched. But what about a mailing list system that stores subscribers in a database, together with the lists they are subscribed to. That way, when the mailer gets ready to send out mail to each user, it could compare Message-Ids and only send one copy of a message (maybe to a preferred list?) Of course, this could only work on the systems that implement this idea, and would probably take some more CPU time doing the comparisons (unless it kept a running table of cross-posted email) Does this make any sense? I wonder if it could work. -Rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 19:52:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF9C114D24 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:52:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: from bb-b1-11a (ppp101.pm3-0.pdx.dsinw.com [207.149.41.101]) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA20361; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:46:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:45:15 -0700 () From: Rick Hamell To: Nick Hibma Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Microsoft-owned email service runs on FreeBSD, Apache In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: hamellr@dsinw.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > "It's a good question, and there's an easy answer: Microsoft would > desperately like to run Hotmail with NT/IIS but when it tried to switch > over, it failed. And if Microsoft cannot get NT to scale, nobody can. > Hotmail runs off FreeBSD, is on version 1.2.1 of Apache - and runs on - > > ..runs off FreeBSD and Solaris servers. Which part is doing what? I think that I saw Solaris was handling the actual e-mail part while FreeBSD handled the rest. If somebody could hit that news article about the guy who hacked Hotmail, I think it was mentioned there. Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 19:52:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF1B814D24 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:52:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24247; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:49:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:49:49 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Cc: zen@buddhist.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199904201841.NAA05137@whizkidtech.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990420075641.00b1a5f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:40 PM 4/20/99 -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >> This is true for you, but I don't think it is for everyone. In the >> computer world especially, the overwhelming majority of users want >> -- in fact, demand! -- operating systems which are VISIBLY attracting >> large user bases and portfolios of third party applications. > >Then you obviously agree with Jordan: They should either go for Windows >or for FreeBSD, depending on their needs. They should go for ANYTHING that serves their needs. The object, however, should be to make FreeBSD serve their needs in the majority of cases. >Incidentally, Jordan has made a wise choice not to get involved in the war >raging between Windows and Linux. As a Slovak proverb says: "Where two >sides fight, the third one wins." The analogy to physical war, in which the sides have exhaustible material resources, does not hold. In a genetic or memetic competition, that which does not compete is quickly overwhelmed. >There is also an interesting story in Greek mythology. A hero whose name >escapes me (since I read the story almost 40 years ago) was to overcome a >whole group of fierce warriors. And all he had was a piece of rock. > >Instead of throwing the rock at them, which would do him no good, he threw >it into their midst. They all wanted it. They started fighting and killing >each other over it, until there was only one left. But after having fought >all the others, the one left was so tired that the hero had no problem >overcoming him. Again, I don't see that the analogy fits. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 19:58:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stratos.net (pm3-10-15.stratos.net [207.86.134.79]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B80F014D24 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 19:58:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from drifter@stratos.net) Received: (from drifter@localhost) by stratos.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id XAA14800; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:00:05 GMT (envelope-from drifter) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:59:59 +0000 From: Rob To: Greg Lehey Cc: Amancio Hasty , Marius Bendiksen , Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Message-ID: <19990420225959.A9910@stratos.net> References: <19990420105336.B40482@lemis.com> <199904200128.SAA58573@rah.star-gate.com> <19990420112230.C40482@lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990420112230.C40482@lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 11:22:30AM +0930 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 11:22:30AM +0930, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Monday, 19 April 1999 at 18:28:39 -0700, Amancio Hasty wrote: > >> [ extra level quotes deleted ] > > > > Isn't there a message ID associated with each mail message so if I > > mail something to chat and -current the message should have the > > same ID and if so you can eliminate the copy . I may be missing > > something here. > > Sure. Your message had: Message-Id: > <199904200128.SAA58573@rah.star-gate.com>, and I got two copies. How > could that be caught earlier? Or if the mailing lists are on two > different systems? The first chance to compare the message IDs is at > the destination system. Mail readers *could* do that, and it's > probably a good option, but it doesn't stop two messages from being > delivered, and that's Marius's issue. > > Greg This might be stretching it, but here goes. What if the mailing list manager used the information stored in its database to only send one copy of a message to each user. When it readies to send a message, it would take the Message-ID of the letter, compares it to a list of duplicates, and only sends one copy to the users preferred default mailing list? Would this take too much CPU time to figure out? Am I making any sense? -Rob To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 20: 6:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 789691514F for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:06:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA03540; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA13791; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:03:58 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990421024315.E38B11505C@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:03:57 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Rob Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20-Apr-99 Rob wrote: > This is far fetched. But what about a mailing list system that > stores subscribers in a database, together with the lists they are > subscribed to. That way, when the mailer gets ready to send out mail > to each user, it could compare Message-Ids and only send one copy of > a message (maybe to a preferred list?) > Of course, this could only work on the systems that implement this > idea, and would probably take some more CPU time doing the comparisons > (unless it kept a running table of cross-posted email) > > Does this make any sense? I wonder if it could work. I just saw that we publicly humiliate people who insist on excessive cross-posting after being warned. We'll moderate ourselves. :) > -Rob --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 20: 8:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C09915239 for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:08:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA09806; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:04:49 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 22:04:49 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: Rob Cc: Greg Lehey , Amancio Hasty , Marius Bendiksen , Bill Swingle , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Message-ID: <19990420220448.N1229@futuresouth.com> References: <19990420105336.B40482@lemis.com> <199904200128.SAA58573@rah.star-gate.com> <19990420112230.C40482@lemis.com> <19990420225959.A9910@stratos.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990420225959.A9910@stratos.net>; from Rob on Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 10:59:59PM +0000 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 10:59:59PM +0000, a little birdie told me that Rob remarked > > This might be stretching it, but here goes. > What if the mailing list manager used the information stored in its > database to only send one copy of a message to each user. When it readies > to send a message, it would take the Message-ID of the letter, compares it > to a list of duplicates, and only sends one copy to the users preferred > default mailing list? > Would this take too much CPU time to figure out? Am I making any > sense? Some of us PREFER getting a copy in each list. Each freebsd-foo list gets procmail'd into a different folder for me. If someone crossposts to 2 lists, and 2 people reply to it, each restricting it to one of the 2 lists (each different), I'd end up half-lost in one place, especially if I read the wrong folder first. With a copy in each folder, it makes discussions much easier to track. To slightly modify a quote from Terry Lambert from long ago: > Does this strike anyone else as a discipline issue rather than > a technical control issue? -- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller MF4839 http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 20:29:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4AA914E2D for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 20:29:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id MAA17437; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:57:43 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA23682; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:57:44 +0930 Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:57:44 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: MattR116@aol.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd-hackers-digest V4 #460 In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > On Tue, 20 Apr 1999 MattR116@aol.com wrote: > > > > > UNSUBSCRIBE > > > > ME TOO > > reaching for high calibre pistol.... > > "did you happen to read the attached message at the bottom of EVERY > EMAIL on this list?" > "no" > *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM* *BLAM* > "unnnng" > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > Quite literally it means: > > send an email to majordomo@freebsd.org with the only contents being > the line: > > unsubscribe freebsd-chat UNSCUBSCRIBE FREEBSD-CHAT > > thanks and could someone toss me a mop? > -Alfred > > ----- The Feynman problem-solving algorithm: 1. Write down the problem 2. Think real hard 3. Write down the solution To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 23:23:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFB1A1515F for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:23:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id XAA86230 for chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:21:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:21:21 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [schoen@loyalty.org: (tech event 4/30) Linus Torvalds at UC Berkeley] Message-ID: <19990420232121.B85966@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ----- Forwarded message from Seth David Schoen ----- Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 21:19:13 -0700 From: Seth David Schoen To: listfoundation members Subject: (tech event 4/30) Linus Torvalds at UC Berkeley The Finnish Studies Program and others are pleased to host a panel of speakers including Linus Torvalds for a conference called "The Challenges of the Network Society" at UC Berkeley on April 30. This is not a technical conference, but the presence of Linus Torvalds, creator of Linux, may be of interest to many people. Advance registration is requested by the Finnish Studies Program at http://webrush.net/ The conference will take place from 1:00p to 4:00p in Pauley Ballroom (in the MLK Student Union on the UC Berkeley campus, by Sproul Plaza at Bancroft and Telegraph in Berkeley). ----- End forwarded message ----- -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 20 23:49:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09C9F14F6B for ; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:49:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13347; Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:46:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Licia Cc: Rick Hamell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: application developers [ was Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) ] In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Apr 1999 15:48:03 CDT." Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:46:47 -0700 Message-ID: <13345.924677207@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It's a frustrating situation, and I would go so far as to say that > the problem isn't even lack of support, but lack of feedback. App > developers will tend to go where their efforts are most appreciated I think what you need to understand here is that the equation simply cuts both ways. Users won't even bother using an application unless it solves a problem that's currently unsolved or solves it in a way which is obviously better than the other available methods. Coming to grips with a new application, or even evaluating it, takes time too and there are literally hundreds of thousands of applications out there now competing for user mindshare - just take a look at freshmeat.net sometime. Even if you do manage to get a few users for an application, keep in mind the fact that it may only be a short-term thing until some other apps developer completely outclasses your offering and relegates it to the software scrap heap. :-) I've had this happen to any number of things I've written and contributed over the years, some of which took non-trivial amounts of time to develop too. Software is just like that, and if there's any truism to be uttered here at all it's that you really should develop applications first and foremost for yourself and treat users as an almost secondary concern (I'm assuming a non- commercial application here, of course). That does appear to be how almost all the really enduring software (emacs, perl, even Unix itself) got its start - some hacker decided to do it not for fame, glory or adulation so much as the simple fact that there was no tool for doing what they wanted available and it _pissed them off_. :-) I know of no better motivator, myself, and it's what led me to do the ports collection, for example. I was *tired* of having to remember how to build all the various bits of software I needed to make a new machine a comfortable work environment, so I decided to do something about it. It was never important to me, at least initially, that anyone else use it. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 0: 6:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21081506C for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:06:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.1/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04595; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:04:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904210704.AAA04595@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Licia , Rick Hamell , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: application developers [ was Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) ] In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:46:47 PDT." <13345.924677207@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:04:01 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Initially, I had a hard time writing the bt848 driver because I didn't think anyone would care;however, I did have a need for a cool video capture device so I wrote it . Later on I was surprised by the interest that it generated . The same thing happen with the original TV application for FreeBSD which I did not think much of it and almost not worth writing and I was not alone in this thinking long time multimedia guru Jim Lowe felt the same . Jordan contributed the jpeg compression to TV later on Randall Hopper took on the task of writing a *real* TV application because the sample FreeBSD TV app was not good enough for him 8) Nevertheless, I do feel that the FreeBSD community should be friendlier to app developers . > I know of no better motivator, myself, and it's what led me to do the > ports collection, for example. I was *tired* of having to remember > how to build all the various bits of software I needed to make a new > machine a comfortable work environment, so I decided to do something > about it. It was never important to me, at least initially, that > anyone else use it. :-) > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 0:15:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9607F14CE7 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:15:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id JAA01557; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:11:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA04587; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:11:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:11:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Wes Peters Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD Chat , Greg Lehey , illiad@userfriendly.org Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-Reply-To: <371C8DBA.A2CF1DB0@softweyr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This must be one of the best plot lines of all time. CC:'ing it to Illiad. - Marius - > > >> Right, that's why we've caught you at it, too :-) > > > You bet, I'm only human*! :-) > > > - Jordan > > > * Or a PERL script, depending on whom you believe. > > Well, we cannot trust a PERL script to make us belief that Jordan is human > > now can you? > > I mean: > > freefall$ ll > > 24 -rwxr-xr-x 1 jordan jordan - 24195 Feb 16 1992 jordan.pl > > Can't we market this as the ultimate AI? =) > > Given, occasionally it's not being very co-operative *grin* > Maybe we can get Illiad to incorporate Jordan into one of the AI > story lines. Jordan vs. the Sith Lord? ;^) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 0:29:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3683115582 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:29:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA13658; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: John Baldwin Cc: Rob , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Apr 1999 23:03:57 EDT." Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:26:32 -0700 Message-ID: <13656.924679592@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is what I send to people who cross-post. I intend to keep sending it out, too. :-) If you're receiving this message, it's because you recently cross-posted something to more than one of the FreeBSD mailing lists, either directly or as a result of not trimming the cc on a follow-up, in a way that constitutes a direct violation of the posted mailing list charters. If you will be so good as to visit: http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources:charters.html You will see that posting to more than 2 lists, and frequently not even that many, is not allowed. A posting to even just two mailing lists is only rarely necessary and almost certainly never appropriate for simple questions, which should *always* go to the freebsd-questions mailing list. Why is this rule necessary? Several reasons: 1. Many of the other mailing lists, most specifically freebsd-hackers, were originally created purely for discussion of technical issues and do not constitute forums for providing tech support. Most cross-postings to -hackers and the other technical mailing lists are made in error by people thinking that they'll stand a better chance of getting an answer that way. This may in fact be occasionally true, but the flood of questions is also DESTROYING the effectiveness of these mailing lists for their original purpose (general discussion) and, in the long run, will only force the deletion of those mailing lists as ineffective communications media, driving all technical discussion "underground" to avoid this problem. This would be a sad loss for everyone and, in order to keep this from happening, the noise level in groups like -hackers MUST be significantly reduced, something which can only happen with user cooperation. 2. Most people, especially developers, subscribe to most (if not all) of the mailing lists and cross-posting only results in multiple copies being sent to each person. On some days, as many as 20 or 30 messages are duplicates and that only makes it even harder to keep up with the FreeBSD email load (which is often >500 messages a day) for those people, one of the worst (and most typical) offenses being to post to both -current and -hackers, resulting in many thousands of duplications. Remember: The more time these people have to spend reading email, the less time they have for development work and that impacts all of us. Thanking you in advance for your cooperation, - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 0:51:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stampede.cs.berkeley.edu (stampede.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.45.124]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B321583F for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:51:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@cs.berkeley.edu) Received: from silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (sji-ca3-251.ix.netcom.com [209.109.233.251]) by stampede.cs.berkeley.edu (8.8.7/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA28960; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:49:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from asami@localhost) by silvia.hip.berkeley.edu (8.9.2/8.6.9) id AAA91495; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:48:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199904210748.AAA91495@silvia.hip.berkeley.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: silvia.hip.berkeley.edu: asami set sender to asami@cs.berkeley.edu using -f To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com Cc: jobaldwi@vt.edu, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <13656.924679592@zippy.cdrom.com> (jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Subject: Re: Cross Posting... From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) References: <13656.924679592@zippy.cdrom.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" I don't want to flame you, but... * being sent to each person. On some days, as many as 20 or 30 messages * are duplicates and that only makes it even harder to keep up with "20 or 30"? I think I've seen upwards to 100 per day! -PW To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 0:52:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72E8153F9; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:52:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA13856; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) Cc: jobaldwi@vt.edu, drifter@stratos.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:48:51 PDT." <199904210748.AAA91495@silvia.hip.berkeley.edu> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:50:17 -0700 Message-ID: <13854.924681017@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I don't want to flame you, but... > > * being sent to each person. On some days, as many as 20 or 30 messages > * are duplicates and that only makes it even harder to keep up with > > "20 or 30"? I think I've seen upwards to 100 per day! OK, so I haven't updated my cross-posting flame in awhile. *scribble scribble* - done! :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 0:54:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B28BC158FF for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 00:54:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA29621; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:51:37 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <371D8388.2D462BB5@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:51:36 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD Chat , Greg Lehey , illiad@userfriendly.org Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > This must be one of the best plot lines of all time. CC:'ing it to Illiad. > > - Marius - > > > > >> Right, that's why we've caught you at it, too :-) > > > > You bet, I'm only human*! :-) > > > > - Jordan > > > > * Or a PERL script, depending on whom you believe. > > > Well, we cannot trust a PERL script to make us belief that Jordan is human > > > now can you? > > > I mean: > > > freefall$ ll > > > 24 -rwxr-xr-x 1 jordan jordan - 24195 Feb 16 1992 jordan.pl > > > Can't we market this as the ultimate AI? =) > > > Given, occasionally it's not being very co-operative *grin* > > Maybe we can get Illiad to incorporate Jordan into one of the AI > > story lines. Jordan vs. the Sith Lord? ;^) I just got back from "The Matrix." Jordan is THE ONE! -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 8: 1:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030D414EA6 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:01:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-046.thuntek.net [207.66.52.46]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id IAA01360; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:55:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <371DE6BF.CF40C94B@thuntek.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:54:55 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jack Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux comparison page gone References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org jack wrote: > > I just tried to send someone to > > http://advisor.gartner.com/n_inbox/hotcontent/hc_2121999_3.html > > seems that page is no longer there. Oddly enough, that day's > other two, more favorable to linux, articles are still up. :( > Let that be a lesson to us all. When we see an article, we need to make sure we snahg not just the link but also the atrticle itself including graphics for posterity. We'll worry about minor copyright issues if it becomes necessary, most will allow us to post if properly cited. The server Jordan's given us has 20GB of space, I'd much rather serve local than links... -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 8:10:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC3FB14EA6; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:10:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip82.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.82]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B754937013; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:07:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA86497; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:08:12 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:08:12 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Daniel C. Sobral" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) Message-ID: <19990421100812.D84628@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <371CF7C7.5F250ABE@newsguy.com> <13468.924678092@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <13468.924678092@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 12:01:32AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Could we have an ombudsman list? Ie, a mailing address for complains > > about us? While I fear it might get spammed with Brett Glass > > messages, I'm concerned that there isn't any obvious place for users > > to express their dissatisfactions. > > Hmmmm. You mean like complaints@freebsd.org or something? Is it also > OK if nobody from core actually subscribes to it? :-) echo "Jordan has cooties" | mail -s Jordan complaints@freebsd.org (This doesn't belong in -advocacy anyhow, so I'll take the liberty of setting replies to -chat) > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > -- Chris Costello The world will end in 5 minutes. Please log out. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 8:27:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r7.bfm.org [208.18.213.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E9111536D for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:27:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id KAA02683; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:25:20 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:24:49 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Message-ID: <19990421102449.B224@whizkidtech.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990420075641.00b1a5f0@localhost> <199904201841.NAA05137@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 08:49:49PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 08:49:49PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > >Then you obviously agree with Jordan: They should either go for Windows > >or for FreeBSD, depending on their needs. > > They should go for ANYTHING that serves their needs. The object, however, > should be to make FreeBSD serve their needs in the majority of cases. In other words, it has nothing to do with PR and evangelization. As for the object, from my limited perspective of having used FreeBSD for less than half a year, it appears that "should be" actually should be "is." I believe that object is a goal Jordan is and has been working on. And not just Jordan. Many other people. Mostly programmers. That is good. Very few writers. That is not good. (Although Jordan has done his share in that area, too). I have a suggestion for you: You are good at explaining things. You also appear to genuinely want FreeBSD to succeed. Why not write some good documentation for people who are new to Unix and *BSD. Not to replace current documentation. To complement it, heck, even to compete with it. You should probably do it on your own (since you do seem to have a rather strong, individualistic, personality :). You know, the "unofficial" guide to FreeBSD. Just do it, and post it somewhere on the web. Don't talk about genetics and memetics in it. Don't mention FreeBSD politics either. Instead, just write a no-nonsense guide to all the good things in FreeBSD, in a style that non-programmers can understand. Do that, and you may even end up in FreeBSD Hall of Fame. Just my three cents worth (adjusted for inflation and taxation). Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 8:53:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07EA814ED9 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 08:53:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA17782; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:51:32 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:51:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: application developers [ was Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) ] In-Reply-To: <13345.924677207@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 20 Apr 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > It's a frustrating situation, and I would go so far as to say that > > the problem isn't even lack of support, but lack of feedback. App > > developers will tend to go where their efforts are most appreciated > > I think what you need to understand here is that the equation simply > cuts both ways. Users won't even bother using an application unless > it solves a problem that's currently unsolved or solves it in a way > which is obviously better than the other available methods. Coming to > grips with a new application, or even evaluating it, takes time too > and there are literally hundreds of thousands of applications out > there now competing for user mindshare - just take a look at > freshmeat.net sometime. > Oh I understand and actually agree, I just think this lack of feedback and 'moral support' is the reason so many app developers favor Linux. While I personally feel FreeBSD has a 'higher quality user', Linux certainly has more -vocal- users, and that includes doing things like reviewing apps they don't actually want/need to use, giving opinions, suggestions, etc > Even if you do manage to get a few users for an application, keep in > mind the fact that it may only be a short-term thing until some other > apps developer completely outclasses your offering and relegates it to > the software scrap heap. :-) I've had this happen to any number of > things I've written and contributed over the years, some of which took > non-trivial amounts of time to develop too. Software is just like > that, and if there's any truism to be uttered here at all it's that > you really should develop applications first and foremost for yourself > and treat users as an almost secondary concern (I'm assuming a non- > commercial application here, of course). That does appear to be how > almost all the really enduring software (emacs, perl, even Unix > itself) got its start - some hacker decided to do it not for fame, > glory or adulation so much as the simple fact that there was no tool > for doing what they wanted available and it _pissed them off_. :-) > (grin) it's hard for me to be that way. I -want- to work on all my projects, but would prefer to work on the ones that would benefit others the most (to be honest, pretty much all my needs are filled at the moment except BBS software, which I'm working on :) ) When I say feed back, I don't mean fame, glory, adulation, etc... I mean people simply saying "Yes that might be useful, go ahead and write it", "No that would probably be ignored, don't bother", or "you spelled the third word of the second paragraph of the help screen wrong" :) > I know of no better motivator, myself, and it's what led me to do the > ports collection, for example. I was *tired* of having to remember > how to build all the various bits of software I needed to make a new > machine a comfortable work environment, so I decided to do something > about it. It was never important to me, at least initially, that > anyone else use it. :-) > > - Jordan (smiles) Frustration can be a motivator, but for people like me, motivation isn't really the issue. I'm plenty motivated, I just need to pick directions to go in... if I have two applications I want to develop and I'm equally interested in both, then feedback would help me pick which one to develop first :) For example, think how frustrating it would be if the core team commited a lot of changes, but no one even acknowledged those changes... did they work, fail, make no difference, etc? :) (note : I'm not trying to sound a clarion call, rant, complain, blow off steam, change the way the world works, etc. This is just my view of why applications developers focus so much on Linux. The resources they need are more available there) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 9:57:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A5EF153DC for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04535; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:53:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10246; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:53:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990421100812.D84628@holly.dyndns.org> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:53:46 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: chris@calldei.com Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Apr-99 Chris Costello wrote: > On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> > Could we have an ombudsman list? Ie, a mailing address for complains >> > about us? While I fear it might get spammed with Brett Glass >> > messages, I'm concerned that there isn't any obvious place for users >> > to express their dissatisfactions. >> >> Hmmmm. You mean like complaints@freebsd.org or something? Is it also >> OK if nobody from core actually subscribes to it? :-) > > echo "Jordan has cooties" | mail -s Jordan complaints@freebsd.org > > (This doesn't belong in -advocacy anyhow, so I'll take the > liberty of setting replies to -chat) I didn't know Perl scripts could have cooties. --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 10:34:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48DA41543B for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:33:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10a0qJ-0006MA-0C; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:31:23 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id SAA04335; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:30:41 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id SAA15629; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:26:39 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:26:39 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: John Baldwin Cc: chris@calldei.com, chat@freebsd.org, "Jordan K. Hubbard" Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) Message-ID: <19990421182639.C15547@marder-1> References: <19990421100812.D84628@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from John Baldwin on Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 12:53:46PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 12:53:46PM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: > > On 21-Apr-99 Chris Costello wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> > Could we have an ombudsman list? Ie, a mailing address for complains > >> > about us? While I fear it might get spammed with Brett Glass > >> > messages, I'm concerned that there isn't any obvious place for users > >> > to express their dissatisfactions. > >> > >> Hmmmm. You mean like complaints@freebsd.org or something? Is it also > >> OK if nobody from core actually subscribes to it? :-) > > > > echo "Jordan has cooties" | mail -s Jordan complaints@freebsd.org > > > > (This doesn't belong in -advocacy anyhow, so I'll take the > > liberty of setting replies to -chat) > > I didn't know Perl scripts could have cooties. > I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what are cooties? > --- > > John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ > PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 10:44:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.wxs.nl (smtp03.wxs.nl [195.121.6.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 755EE1543B for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:44:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.234]) by smtp03.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA6DC3; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:41:42 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01831; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:41:54 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <371D8388.2D462BB5@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:41:54 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Cc: illiad@userfriendly.org, Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Marius Bendiksen Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Apr-99 Wes Peters wrote: > Marius Bendiksen wrote: >> >> This must be one of the best plot lines of all time. CC:'ing it to >> Illiad. >> >> - Marius - >> >> > > >> Right, that's why we've caught you at it, too :-) >> > > > You bet, I'm only human*! :-) >> > > > - Jordan >> > > > * Or a PERL script, depending on whom you believe. >> > > Well, we cannot trust a PERL script to make us belief that Jordan is >> > > human >> > > now can you? >> > > I mean: >> > > freefall$ ll >> > > 24 -rwxr-xr-x 1 jordan jordan - 24195 Feb 16 1992 jordan.pl >> > > Can't we market this as the ultimate AI? =) >> > > Given, occasionally it's not being very co-operative *grin* >> > Maybe we can get Illiad to incorporate Jordan into one of the AI >> > story lines. Jordan vs. the Sith Lord? ;^) > > I just got back from "The Matrix." Jordan is THE ONE! I sure hope he's smarter than Ahnold though ;) Btw, speaking of trademarks, can't we market it like this: JordanBSD(r): The One!(tm/sm) Would be fun... A fully interactive AI and such... Then again, the other AI known as TerryBSD might complain ;) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 10:50:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15072154C3 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:49:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA15525; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA10330; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:47:17 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990421182639.C15547@marder-1> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:47:16 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Mark Ovens Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@freebsd.org, chris@calldei.com, John Baldwin Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Apr-99 Mark Ovens wrote: > On Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 12:53:46PM -0400, John Baldwin wrote: >> >> On 21-Apr-99 Chris Costello wrote: >> > On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >> >> > Could we have an ombudsman list? Ie, a mailing address for complains >> >> > about us? While I fear it might get spammed with Brett Glass >> >> > messages, I'm concerned that there isn't any obvious place for users >> >> > to express their dissatisfactions. >> >> >> >> Hmmmm. You mean like complaints@freebsd.org or something? Is it also >> >> OK if nobody from core actually subscribes to it? :-) >> > >> > echo "Jordan has cooties" | mail -s Jordan complaints@freebsd.org >> > >> > (This doesn't belong in -advocacy anyhow, so I'll take the >> > liberty of setting replies to -chat) >> >> I didn't know Perl scripts could have cooties. >> > > I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what are cooties? Fictitious little "things" that elementary school boys believe elementary school girls have. Thus, to elementary school boys, girls are to be avoided at all costs. Basically, it's a very trivial kind of fake insult whose only value once you are past the 5th/6th grade is humor value. :) --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 10:52:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F1C315822 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:51:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip82.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.82]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A005137077; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:49:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA87354; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:49:42 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:49:41 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) Message-ID: <19990421124941.H84628@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990421100812.D84628@holly.dyndns.org> <19990421182639.C15547@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <19990421182639.C15547@marder-1>; from Mark Ovens on Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 06:26:39PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > I didn't know Perl scripts could have cooties. > > > > I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what are cooties? It's a disease that occurs in childhood (specifically kindergarten and first grade) from liking girls. (It's made up.) > > --- > > > > John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ > > PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc > > "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org -- Chris Costello As of next week, passwords will be entered in Morse code. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 10:54:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90F98154C5 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:53:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.234]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAAE39; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:51:23 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA01848; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:51:38 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:51:38 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: John Baldwin Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chris@calldei.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Apr-99 John Baldwin wrote: > > On 21-Apr-99 Chris Costello wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >>> Hmmmm. You mean like complaints@freebsd.org or something? Is it also >>> OK if nobody from core actually subscribes to it? :-) >> >> echo "Jordan has cooties" | mail -s Jordan complaints@freebsd.org >> >> (This doesn't belong in -advocacy anyhow, so I'll take the >> liberty of setting replies to -chat) > > I didn't know Perl scripts could have cooties. It's a feature of Jordan, the Perl Script(tm). Cool huh? =) --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 11:25:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC653157A0 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:25:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip82.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.82]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A61537089; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:22:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA87467; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:23:16 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:23:16 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: John Baldwin , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chris@calldei.com Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) Message-ID: <19990421132316.J84628@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 07:51:38PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > On 21-Apr-99 John Baldwin wrote: > > > > On 21-Apr-99 Chris Costello wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >>> Hmmmm. You mean like complaints@freebsd.org or something? Is it also > >>> OK if nobody from core actually subscribes to it? :-) > >> > >> echo "Jordan has cooties" | mail -s Jordan complaints@freebsd.org > >> > >> (This doesn't belong in -advocacy anyhow, so I'll take the > >> liberty of setting replies to -chat) > > > > I didn't know Perl scripts could have cooties. > > It's a feature of Jordan, the Perl Script(tm). > > Cool huh? =) I'm just about to tar, feather, and gzip the old Jordan and install the new one, which has a less buggy love-sheep addiction. > > --- > Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl > The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project > Network/Security Specialist > *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how > -- Chris Costello Asking if computers can think is like asking if submarines can swim. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 11:28:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C93DE158B3 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:27:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00832; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:24:21 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <371E17D4.E31D0DE7@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:24:20 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: illiad@userfriendly.org, Greg Lehey , FreeBSD Chat , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Marius Bendiksen Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > On 21-Apr-99 Wes Peters wrote: > > Marius Bendiksen wrote: > >> > >> This must be one of the best plot lines of all time. CC:'ing it to > >> Illiad. > >> > >> - Marius - > >> > >> > > >> Right, that's why we've caught you at it, too :-) > >> > > > You bet, I'm only human*! :-) > >> > > > - Jordan > >> > > > * Or a PERL script, depending on whom you believe. > >> > > Well, we cannot trust a PERL script to make us belief that Jordan is > >> > > human > >> > > now can you? > >> > > I mean: > >> > > freefall$ ll > >> > > 24 -rwxr-xr-x 1 jordan jordan - 24195 Feb 16 1992 jordan.pl > >> > > Can't we market this as the ultimate AI? =) > >> > > Given, occasionally it's not being very co-operative *grin* > >> > Maybe we can get Illiad to incorporate Jordan into one of the AI > >> > story lines. Jordan vs. the Sith Lord? ;^) > > > > I just got back from "The Matrix." Jordan is THE ONE! > > I sure hope he's smarter than Ahnold though ;) It wasn't Ahnold, it was Keanu Reeves, who bears only a superficial resemblance to Jordan. Trinity was certainly attractive in her latex dress, though. Do you think we can get Jordan a date with her if we point out he is THE ONE? ;^) > Btw, speaking of trademarks, can't we market it like this: > > JordanBSD(r): The One!(tm/sm) > > Would be fun... A fully interactive AI and such... Imagine that -- immersive reality written in Perl. ;^) > Then again, the other AI known as TerryBSD might complain ;) No, but I understand TerryBSD has a "required" daemon that is hard- coded into init. It will search for any JordanBSD systems on the net and attack them by streaming physics texts into every available TCP port. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 11:35: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8495515824 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:34:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA14827; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:30:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199904211830.LAA14827@implode.root.com> To: Wes Peters Cc: illiad@userfriendly.org, FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:24:20 MDT." <371E17D4.E31D0DE7@softweyr.com> From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:30:47 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> > I just got back from "The Matrix." Jordan is THE ONE! >> >> I sure hope he's smarter than Ahnold though ;) > >It wasn't Ahnold, it was Keanu Reeves, who bears only a superficial >resemblance to Jordan. Uh, they both are male and have similar colored skin and hair, but I'd say any additional resemblance ends there. :-) -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 11:45:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F701586A for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:45:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:42:47 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Mark Ovens" Cc: Subject: RE: Ombudsman (sp? :) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 11:42:47 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01be8c26$c04473b0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <19990421182639.C15547@marder-1> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what are cooties? Originally, lice. But to little kids, it's a fictitious disease that you have if you're not popular. Alternatively, a boy/girl gets it if he/she touches a girl/boy. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 12:14:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.wxs.nl (smtp04.wxs.nl [195.121.6.59]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBB22158AB for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:13:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.197.123]) by smtp04.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA1B18; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:10:27 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00361; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:10:37 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <371E17D4.E31D0DE7@softweyr.com> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:10:37 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Wes Peters Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Cc: Marius Bendiksen , Marius Bendiksen , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , FreeBSD Chat , Greg Lehey , illiad@userfriendly.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Apr-99 Wes Peters wrote: > Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> On 21-Apr-99 Wes Peters wrote: >> > Marius Bendiksen wrote: >> >> This must be one of the best plot lines of all time. CC:'ing it to >> >> Illiad. >> >> > > >> Right, that's why we've caught you at it, too :-) >> >> > > > You bet, I'm only human*! :-) >> >> > > > - Jordan >> >> > > > * Or a PERL script, depending on whom you believe. >> >> > > Well, we cannot trust a PERL script to make us belief that Jordan >> >> > > is human now can you? >> >> > > I mean: >> >> > > freefall$ ll >> >> > > 24 -rwxr-xr-x 1 jordan jordan - 24195 Feb 16 1992 jordan.pl >> >> > > Can't we market this as the ultimate AI? =) >> >> > > Given, occasionally it's not being very co-operative *grin* >> >> > Maybe we can get Illiad to incorporate Jordan into one of the AI >> >> > story lines. Jordan vs. the Sith Lord? ;^) >> > >> > I just got back from "The Matrix." Jordan is THE ONE! >> >> I sure hope he's smarter than Ahnold though ;) > > It wasn't Ahnold, it was Keanu Reeves, who bears only a superficial > resemblance to Jordan. Trinity was certainly attractive in her > latex dress, though. Do you think we can get Jordan a date with > her if we point out he is THE ONE? ;^) Yeah, but I thought that the Jordan Perl script was fond of sheep instead of women? But to be frank, AFAIK the Matrix isn't out here yet... So I have no opinion on Trinity yet... >> Btw, speaking of trademarks, can't we market it like this: >> JordanBSD(r): The One!(tm/sm) >> >> Would be fun... A fully interactive AI and such... > > Imagine that -- immersive reality written in Perl. ;^) Nah, doesn't compute eh? ;) Mayhaps if we rewrote him in, ehm, lessee, Python? Nah... Expect! That's it... Jordan must have been written in Expect, how else can he answer so often that it doesn't see the patches attached... Yeah that's it... He's an Expect script... >> Then again, the other AI known as TerryBSD might complain ;) > > No, but I understand TerryBSD has a "required" daemon that is hard- > coded into init. It will search for any JordanBSD systems on the > net and attack them by streaming physics texts into every available > TCP port. ;^) Does that include the various snippets of book excerpts? =) Wonder what TerryBSD is written in... Must be pure C I reckon? --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 12:41: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id B5AD8153E7; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:39:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: wes@softweyr.com Cc: mbendiks@eunet.no, asmodai@wxs.nl, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com, illiad@userfriendly.org In-reply-to: <371D8388.2D462BB5@softweyr.com> (message from Wes Peters on Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:51:36 -0600) Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Message-Id: <19990421193921.B5AD8153E7@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 12:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:51:36 -0600 > From: Wes Peters > > I just got back from "The Matrix." Jordan is THE ONE! > hhmm.....could be. does look a little like keanu reeves......he's been doing martial arts.....but i dont know. jordan has cats. the only cat that i remember from the movie was bad news. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 13: 7: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2D281503B for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:06:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.152.128]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990421200604.ULIZ5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:06:04 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:04:22 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz Cc: mbendiks@eunet.no, asmodai@wxs.nl, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com, illiad@userfriendly.org References: <371D8388.2D462BB5@softweyr.com> (message from Wes Peters on Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:51:36 -0600) In-reply-to: <19990421193921.B5AD8153E7@hub.freebsd.org> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990421200604.ULIZ5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21 Apr 99, at 12:39, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:51:36 -0600 > > From: Wes Peters > > > > > I just got back from "The Matrix." Jordan is THE ONE! > > > > > hhmm.....could be. does look a little like keanu > reeves......he's been doing martial arts.....but i dont know. jordan has > cats. the only cat that i remember from the movie was bad news. No, that cat notified the people of something bad which was about to happen. It gave them time to prepare and repell the attackers. -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/freebsd/ NZ FreeBSD User Group - http://www.nzfug.nz.freebsd.org/ The Racing System - http://www.racingsystem.com/racingsystem.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 13: 7: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB6D915340 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:06:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.152.128]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990421200610.ULJN5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:06:10 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:04:22 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz In-reply-to: <19990421132316.J84628@holly.dyndns.org> References: ; from Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai on Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 07:51:38PM +0200 X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990421200610.ULJN5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21 Apr 99, at 13:23, Chris Costello wrote: > On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > On 21-Apr-99 John Baldwin wrote: > > > > > > On 21-Apr-99 Chris Costello wrote: > > >> On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > > >>> Hmmmm. You mean like complaints@freebsd.org or something? Is it > > >>> also OK if nobody from core actually subscribes to it? :-) > > >> > > >> echo "Jordan has cooties" | mail -s Jordan complaints@freebsd.org > > >> > > >> (This doesn't belong in -advocacy anyhow, so I'll take the > > >> liberty of setting replies to -chat) > > > > > > I didn't know Perl scripts could have cooties. > > > > It's a feature of Jordan, the Perl Script(tm). > > > > Cool huh? =) > > I'm just about to tar, feather, and gzip the old Jordan and > install the new one, which has a less buggy love-sheep addiction. Will the video be available for public distribution? -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/freebsd/ NZ FreeBSD User Group - http://www.nzfug.nz.freebsd.org/ The Racing System - http://www.racingsystem.com/racingsystem.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 13:36:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7236B158FE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:32:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA45166; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:29:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: John Baldwin Cc: Mark Ovens , chat@freebsd.org, chris@calldei.com Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:47:16 EDT." Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:29:00 -0700 Message-ID: <45164.924726540@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Fictitious little "things" that elementary school boys believe elementary > school girls have. Thus, to elementary school boys, girls are to be avoided Ficticious?! I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this is one of the very few playground facts I learned which remains true to this day! I just didn't realize quite how badly girls had cooties until much later.. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 13:36:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F81F1594A for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:35:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA45181; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:32:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Licia Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: application developers [ was Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) ] In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Apr 1999 10:51:32 CDT." Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:32:28 -0700 Message-ID: <45179.924726748@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > For example, think how frustrating it would be if the core team commited a lo t > of changes, but no one even acknowledged those changes... did they work, fail , > make no difference, etc? :) Actually, considering that the majority of people these days tend to either whine or say nothing about new features, this wouldn't be frustrating at all. Given a choice between whining and silence, I know which one *I* would pick. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 13:48: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB9C3158BD for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:47:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA18822; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:45:20 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:45:20 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: application developers [ was Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) ] In-Reply-To: <45179.924726748@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > For example, think how frustrating it would be if the core team commited a lo > t > > of changes, but no one even acknowledged those changes... did they work, fail > , > > make no difference, etc? :) > > Actually, considering that the majority of people these days tend to > either whine or say nothing about new features, this wouldn't be > frustrating at all. Given a choice between whining and silence, I > know which one *I* would pick. :-) > > - Jordan > (rotfl) well, I can sympathize with that, but you know what I mean :) [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 13:52:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA549158F0 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:51:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA45273; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:48:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: Wes Peters , Marius Bendiksen , FreeBSD Chat , Greg Lehey , illiad@userfriendly.org Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:10:37 +0200." Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 13:48:53 -0700 Message-ID: <45271.924727733@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Let me just apologise to Illiad right now for what must be one bizarre thread-from-hell at this point. I don't look like Keanu Reeves and it's taking me one hell of a lot longer to learn Kung Fu than it took him in the movie, so I don't think these comparisons hold much water. I will, however, (and for the record), be more than happy to go out with Carrie Anne Moss (the actress who played "Trinity") if she should call me. My number is in the book, Carrie! :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 14:27: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AF50158F4 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:26:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA18999; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:24:09 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:24:09 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: John Baldwin , Mark Ovens , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chris@calldei.com Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) In-Reply-To: <45164.924726540@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Fictitious little "things" that elementary school boys believe elementary > > school girls have. Thus, to elementary school boys, girls are to be avoided > > Ficticious?! I'm sorry to disappoint you, but this is one of the very > few playground facts I learned which remains true to this day! > > I just didn't realize quite how badly girls had cooties until much > later.. :) > > - Jordan > > I do -not- have cooties! :P [ licia@o-o.org ] [ http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Alias : Ladywolf] [ Telnet to o-o.org and log in as bbs ] [ ssh -l bbs -C o-o.org ] [ A happy user of FreeBSD : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] main(){int num[4]={1768122732,762265697,1919889007,103};printf("%s\n",num);} To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 14:32:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8A88215949 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:31:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 21123 invoked by alias); 21 Apr 1999 21:29:19 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 21116 invoked by uid 0); 21 Apr 1999 21:29:18 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 21 Apr 1999 21:29:18 -0000 Message-ID: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:28:59 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: I dream of Chuck... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Last night I had this dream about Chuck (no it's not sexual). The whole thing was done in povray-style graphics. In it Chuck is walking with the Penguin up a steep incline to a 1000 foot cliff where a caricatured Bill Gates is standing looking wistfully out over the expanse before him. He said, "I wish..." then both Chuck and the Penguin push him off the cliff. They listen to Gates screaming like a baby and hollering about SCO on the way down, then they both laugh-- the Penguin this maniacal cackle, and Chuck this hearty belly laugh. Then Chuck waves his pitchfork in an arc in front of them and chants "include bridge.h" and a giant bridge made of sterling silver 1s and 0s appears. Chuck and the Penguin walk off across it hand in hand whistling show tunes. Do you suppose it means something? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 14:38:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13D5D15916 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:38:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:35:39 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Licia" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Subject: RE: Ombudsman (sp? :) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:35:38 -0700 Message-ID: <000601be8c3e$e62359d0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I do -not- have cooties! :P > When boys are young, they think girls are icky and have cooties and such. Then as they get older, they start to think that girls are kind of neat, but what's really happening is they are simply horny. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 14:49:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C52DD15934 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:49:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 29048 invoked by alias); 21 Apr 1999 21:46:32 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 29015 invoked by uid 0); 21 Apr 1999 21:46:31 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 21 Apr 1999 21:46:31 -0000 Message-ID: <371E4724.F6DA9871@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:46:12 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: John Baldwin , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, chris@calldei.com Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > On 21-Apr-99 John Baldwin wrote: > > > > On 21-Apr-99 Chris Costello wrote: > >> On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > >>> Hmmmm. You mean like complaints@freebsd.org or something? Is it also > >>> OK if nobody from core actually subscribes to it? :-) > >> > >> echo "Jordan has cooties" | mail -s Jordan complaints@freebsd.org > >> > >> (This doesn't belong in -advocacy anyhow, so I'll take the > >> liberty of setting replies to -chat) > > > > I didn't know Perl scripts could have cooties. > > It's a feature of Jordan, the Perl Script(tm). > > Cool huh? =) Since when does jordan.pl run girls(6)? -- I don't like four lines! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 15: 5: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D247F15948 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:04:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA11977; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:01:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:01:58 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: announce@bafug.org Subject: Headcount for Berkeley BAFUG Message-ID: <19990421150158.A11965@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 15: 8:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0799E15935 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:08:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07855; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA31377; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:05:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990421200604.ULIZ5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:05:33 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Dan Langille Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Apr-99 Dan Langille wrote: > On 21 Apr 99, at 12:39, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > >> >> > Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org >> > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 01:51:36 -0600 >> > From: Wes Peters >> >> > >> > I just got back from "The Matrix." Jordan is THE ONE! >> > >> >> >> hhmm.....could be. does look a little like keanu >> reeves......he's been doing martial arts.....but i dont know. jordan has >> cats. the only cat that i remember from the movie was bad news. > > No, that cat notified the people of something bad which was about to > happen. It gave them time to prepare and repell the attackers. So now the question is: What dangers are Jordan's cats informing him of? --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 15:46:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CED81537F for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:45:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA02007; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:13:14 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id IAA84661; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:13:13 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:13:13 +091800 From: Greg Lehey To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... Message-ID: <19990422081313.D54567@freebie.lemis.com> References: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net>; from Darren Pilgrim on Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 02:28:59PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 21 April 1999 at 14:28:59 -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Last night I had this dream about Chuck (no it's not sexual). The > whole thing was done in povray-style graphics. In it Chuck is walking > with the Penguin up a steep incline to a 1000 foot cliff where a > caricatured Bill Gates is standing looking wistfully out over the > expanse before him. He said, "I wish..." then both Chuck and the > Penguin push him off the cliff. They listen to Gates screaming like a > baby and hollering about SCO on the way down, then they both laugh-- > the Penguin this maniacal cackle, and Chuck this hearty belly laugh. > Then Chuck waves his pitchfork in an arc in front of them and chants > "include bridge.h" and a giant bridge made of sterling silver 1s and > 0s appears. Chuck and the Penguin walk off across it hand in hand > whistling show tunes. > > Do you suppose it means something? You've been advocating too long? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 16: 3:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A509152AE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:02:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip82.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.82]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31E5E37085; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:00:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA01273; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:00:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:00:39 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Greg Lehey Cc: Darren Pilgrim , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... Message-ID: <19990421180039.B1053@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> <19990422081313.D54567@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <19990422081313.D54567@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 08:13:13AM +0918 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Wednesday, 21 April 1999 at 14:28:59 -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > Last night I had this dream about Chuck (no it's not sexual). The > > whole thing was done in povray-style graphics. In it Chuck is walking > > with the Penguin up a steep incline to a 1000 foot cliff where a > > caricatured Bill Gates is standing looking wistfully out over the > > expanse before him. He said, "I wish..." then both Chuck and the > > Penguin push him off the cliff. They listen to Gates screaming like a > > baby and hollering about SCO on the way down, then they both laugh-- > > the Penguin this maniacal cackle, and Chuck this hearty belly laugh. > > Then Chuck waves his pitchfork in an arc in front of them and chants > > "include bridge.h" and a giant bridge made of sterling silver 1s and > > 0s appears. Chuck and the Penguin walk off across it hand in hand > > whistling show tunes. > > > > Do you suppose it means something? > > You've been advocating too long? He's been smelling the inside of the new CDs too much. ;) > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Chris Costello Old mail has arrived. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 16: 8:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF75014E23 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:08:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.50]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA3459; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:05:41 -0400 Message-ID: <371E5A28.99CA55EB@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:07:22 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... References: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I hate to say this but...there's only ONE person that can answer that for you. Try: if his back hurts, it's probably real ! Otherwise read that other posting about when to drop your computer and take a book. Pedro. Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Last night I had this dream about Chuck (no it's not sexual). The > whole thing was done in povray-style graphics. In it Chuck is walking > with the Penguin up a steep incline to a 1000 foot cliff where a > caricatured Bill Gates is standing looking wistfully out over the > expanse before him. He said, "I wish..." then both Chuck and the > Penguin push him off the cliff. They listen to Gates screaming like a > baby and hollering about SCO on the way down, then they both laugh-- > the Penguin this maniacal cackle, and Chuck this hearty belly laugh. > Then Chuck waves his pitchfork in an arc in front of them and chants > "include bridge.h" and a giant bridge made of sterling silver 1s and > 0s appears. Chuck and the Penguin walk off across it hand in hand > whistling show tunes. > > Do you suppose it means something? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 16:25:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3163E1545D for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:24:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10a6Jm-0003U2-0A; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:22:11 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA00403; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:21:40 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id AAA00461; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:17:36 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:17:36 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... Message-ID: <19990422001736.B254@marder-1> References: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net>; from Darren Pilgrim on Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 02:28:59PM -0700 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 02:28:59PM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Last night I had this dream about Chuck (no it's not sexual). The > whole thing was done in povray-style graphics. In it Chuck is walking > with the Penguin up a steep incline to a 1000 foot cliff where a > caricatured Bill Gates is standing looking wistfully out over the > expanse before him. He said, "I wish..." then both Chuck and the > Penguin push him off the cliff. They listen to Gates screaming like a > baby and hollering about SCO on the way down, then they both laugh-- > the Penguin this maniacal cackle, and Chuck this hearty belly laugh. > Then Chuck waves his pitchfork in an arc in front of them and chants > "include bridge.h" and a giant bridge made of sterling silver 1s and > 0s appears. Chuck and the Penguin walk off across it hand in hand > whistling show tunes. > > Do you suppose it means something? > Time to kick your habit ;-) Mind you, it would make I great graphic - any POVray experts out there? > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 16:34:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E55815864 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:33:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) id SAA54368; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:32:45 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 18:32:45 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Message-ID: <19990421183245.A78365@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.2.0.32.19990420075641.00b1a5f0@localhost> <199904201841.NAA05137@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> <19990421102449.B224@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990421102449.B224@whizkidtech.net>; from G. Adam Stanislav on Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 10:24:49AM -0500 Organization: Nik at home, where there's nothing going on Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 10:24:49AM -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > I have a suggestion for you: You are good at explaining things. You also > appear to genuinely want FreeBSD to succeed. Why not write some good > documentation for people who are new to Unix and *BSD. Not to replace > current documentation. To complement it, heck, even to compete with it. With my Doc. Proj. hat on, I'll state for the record that I would welcome Brett's input and suggestions for the FreeBSD documentation. Interested parties should look at http://www.freebsd.org/~nik/primer/ (add "book.html" to the end of that if you want it all on one page) and the freebsd-doc mailing list. N -- Bagel: The carbohydrate with the hole To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 17: 2:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 155AD1540A for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 17:01:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 9614 invoked by alias); 21 Apr 1999 23:59:29 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 9602 invoked by uid 0); 21 Apr 1999 23:59:28 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 21 Apr 1999 23:59:28 -0000 Message-ID: <371E664C.F41F2DF7@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:59:08 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... References: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> <19990422001736.B254@marder-1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > On Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 02:28:59PM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >> Last night I had this dream about Chuck (no it's not sexual). The >> whole thing was done in povray-style graphics. In it Chuck is walking >> with the Penguin up a steep incline to a 1000 foot cliff where a >> caricatured Bill Gates is standing looking wistfully out over the >> expanse before him. He said, "I wish..." then both Chuck and the >> Penguin push him off the cliff. They listen to Gates screaming like a >> baby and hollering about SCO on the way down, then they both laugh-- >> the Penguin this maniacal cackle, and Chuck this hearty belly laugh. >> Then Chuck waves his pitchfork in an arc in front of them and chants >> "include bridge.h" and a giant bridge made of sterling silver 1s and >> 0s appears. Chuck and the Penguin walk off across it hand in hand >> whistling show tunes. >> >> Do you suppose it means something? > > Time to kick your habit ;-) I don't have a clicking problem! > Mind you, it would make I great graphic - any POVray experts out > there? There's an idea! Make a Quicktime or Fly movie out of my dream. Use it as part of the proposed FreeBSD demo, or at Linuxworld. BTW, I never saw my post or any of the replies (except for Greg's) in the list. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 19: 4: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D16159B8 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:03:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sprice@hiwaay.net) Received: from localhost (sprice@localhost) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA00361; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:00:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:00:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Steve Price To: Randall Hopper Cc: Doug White , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "dougwhite: fork failed - too many processes" In-Reply-To: <19990421211757.A5620@ipass.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Doug is indeed an amusing guy. Welcome back Doug! :) Just wait until you catch one of his lunch-time sprees where 50+ messages in succession will be from him. It is truly a beautiful site to behold. ;) -steve On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Randall Hopper wrote: # Man Doug! How do you do it!?! If I knew your secret, maybe I could use # the same trick to increase my productivity 8^) # # (I see more than 97 help replies from you in 2 days. Really incredible! :-) # # Randall To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 19:10:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0542151DB for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:10:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA09190; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA01493; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:07:53 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:07:52 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Darren Pilgrim Subject: RE: I dream of Chuck... Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Apr-99 Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Last night I had this dream about Chuck (no it's not sexual). The > whole thing was done in povray-style graphics. In it Chuck is walking > with the Penguin up a steep incline to a 1000 foot cliff where a > caricatured Bill Gates is standing looking wistfully out over the > expanse before him. He said, "I wish..." then both Chuck and the > Penguin push him off the cliff. They listen to Gates screaming like a > baby and hollering about SCO on the way down, then they both laugh-- > the Penguin this maniacal cackle, and Chuck this hearty belly laugh. > Then Chuck waves his pitchfork in an arc in front of them and chants > "include bridge.h" and a giant bridge made of sterling silver 1s and > 0s appears. Chuck and the Penguin walk off across it hand in hand > whistling show tunes. > > Do you suppose it means something? A few less drugs before bed? :) (j/k) Seriously, though, if you are dreaming about Chuck, it may be time to get out from in front of your computer, go enjoy the spring (or fall) air, and then get a good night's sleep not draped across your keyboard. :) --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 19:15:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AE9731581B for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:15:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 20724 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 02:12:58 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 20698 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 02:12:57 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 02:12:57 -0000 Message-ID: <371E858D.F2E64B62@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:12:29 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chris@calldei.com Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... References: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> <19990422081313.D54567@freebie.lemis.com> <19990421180039.B1053@holly.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Costello wrote: > On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: >> On Wednesday, 21 April 1999 at 14:28:59 -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >>> Last night I had this dream about Chuck (no it's not sexual). The >>> whole thing was done in povray-style graphics. In it Chuck is walking >>> with the Penguin up a steep incline to a 1000 foot cliff where a >>> caricatured Bill Gates is standing looking wistfully out over the >>> expanse before him. He said, "I wish..." then both Chuck and the >>> Penguin push him off the cliff. They listen to Gates screaming like a >>> baby and hollering about SCO on the way down, then they both laugh-- >>> the Penguin this maniacal cackle, and Chuck this hearty belly laugh. >>> Then Chuck waves his pitchfork in an arc in front of them and chants >>> "include bridge.h" and a giant bridge made of sterling silver 1s and >>> 0s appears. Chuck and the Penguin walk off across it hand in hand >>> whistling show tunes. >>> >>> Do you suppose it means something? >> >> You've been advocating too long? > > He's been smelling the inside of the new CDs too much. ;) I have not been smelling the new CDs! Now if you'll excuse, me I have a poker game to finish with Elvis and a couple of giant pink bunny rabbits. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 19:18:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (mail1.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D410153FF for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 19:18:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-74-80.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.74.80]) by mail1.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA17387; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:14:24 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA61402; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:15:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199904220215.WAA61402@bellsouth.net> To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:28:59 PDT." <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:15:38 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Do you suppose it means something? "Don't eat the brown acid, man..." ;-> Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 20:31:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3450414E71 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:31:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA46504; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:28:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 21 Apr 1999 14:28:59 PDT." <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 20:28:52 -0700 Message-ID: <46502.924751732@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Do you suppose it means something? Yeah, no more salsa before bedtime for *you*! - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 21: 2:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A47B158A6 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:02:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA01455; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:59:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:59:25 -0500 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: John Baldwin Cc: Darren Pilgrim , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... Message-ID: <19990421225925.X1229@futuresouth.com> References: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from John Baldwin on Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 10:07:52PM -0400 X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 10:07:52PM -0400, a little birdie told me that John Baldwin remarked > > A few less drugs before bed? :) (j/k) > > Seriously, though, if you are dreaming about Chuck, it may be time to get out > from in front of your computer, go enjoy the spring (or fall) air, and then get > a good night's sleep not draped across your keyboard. :) Sleep.... not.... keyboard.... Stop talking nonsense man! -- *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* | Matthew Fuller MF4839 http://www.over-yonder.net/ | * fullermd@futuresouth.com fullermd@over-yonder.net * | UNIX Systems Administrator Specializing in FreeBSD | * FutureSouth Communications ISPHelp ISP Consulting * | "The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, | * is because I haven't figured out how to light the * | middle yet" | *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 21: 4:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 14FAE150D5 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:04:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 3172 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 04:02:05 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 3164 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 04:02:04 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 04:02:04 -0000 Message-ID: <371E9F2A.CFE50129@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:01:46 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thank you all for your (feigned) concern about my mental health and/or drug habits, but I'm okay really. The doctors say I'm progressing very well. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 21:27:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DF86A151CC for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:27:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 17923 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 04:25:08 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 17863 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 04:25:05 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 04:25:05 -0000 Message-ID: <371EA48F.9320987D@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 21:24:47 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Matthew D. Fuller" Cc: John Baldwin , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... References: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> <19990421225925.X1229@futuresouth.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Matthew D. Fuller" wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 10:07:52PM -0400, a little birdie told me > that John Baldwin remarked > > > > A few less drugs before bed? :) (j/k) > > > > Seriously, though, if you are dreaming about Chuck, it may be time to get out > > from in front of your computer, go enjoy the spring (or fall) air, and then get > > a good night's sleep not draped across your keyboard. :) > > Sleep.... not.... keyboard.... > > Stop talking nonsense man! I know, some people just never realize that the purpose of computing is to height one's conciousness through sleep deprivation. The only reason I slept last night is because there's a PFUG meeting tomorrow and I wanted to be sure I was aware enough of my surroundings to take the bus there and back. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 22:35:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2F111527B for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:35:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05074; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:33:15 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990421150131.04614650@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 15:17:43 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990421102449.B224@whizkidtech.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990420075641.00b1a5f0@localhost> <199904201841.NAA05137@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:24 AM 4/21/99 -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: >On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 08:49:49PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: >> >Then you obviously agree with Jordan: They should either go for Windows >> >or for FreeBSD, depending on their needs. >> >> They should go for ANYTHING that serves their needs. The object, however, >> should be to make FreeBSD serve their needs in the majority of cases. > >In other words, it has nothing to do with PR and evangelization. Not so. People need to KNOW and BELIEVE that a product serves their needs, or it is immaterial whether it does or does not do so; it will not become popular nor will it be given the opportunity to do them good. >As for the object, from my limited perspective of having used FreeBSD for >less than half a year, it appears that "should be" actually should be "is." If you believe that, then you would not approve of the strategy embraced by Jordan. Jordan is attempting to position FreeBSD exclusively as a server operating system, and is actively steering developers toward another platform: Linux. These are losing and damaging strategies. The engineer, who has assumed the role of captain without the experience or worldview required for this very different position, is aiming the ship right for the rocks. Many previous ships have crashed on those rocks before. >I have a suggestion for you: You are good at explaining things. You also >appear to genuinely want FreeBSD to succeed. Why not write some good >documentation for people who are new to Unix and *BSD. Not to replace >current documentation. To complement it, heck, even to compete with it. This might be an interesting project. However, it will be in vain unless FreeBSD acquires what is needed for its survival. OS/2 was a good OS, also, and had some very good books written about it by authors I know. I wrote quite a few magazine articles about it -- good ones, I thought. It died (yes, I know that a very few people still do use it) nonetheless because of (among other things) poor marketing to end users, developers, and hardware vendors -- maladaptive memes. >Do that, and you may even end up in FreeBSD Hall of Fame. I have no interest in being in a "Hall of Fame." I would like to obtain, and be able to use, a robust, technically sound, VERY POPULAR operating system which is not encumbered by the GPL or doomed by the factors mentioned above. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 22:49:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63A2F15179 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:49:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from outpost.co.nz (b001-m004-p008.wgtn.clear.net.nz [203.167.240.200]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA12739; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:45:53 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199904220545.RAA12739@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> Received: (qmail 444 invoked from network); 22 Apr 1999 03:48:49 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.acme.gen.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by evil-smelling-bugger.acme.gen.nz with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 03:48:49 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:48:24 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Daemon Screen Saver Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is enormously cool! I've always liked the stars saver, which is pretty impressive for something done in ASCII text, but the Daemon saver (is this new to 3.1?) is something else entirely!!!! Fabbo! -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 22:50:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (fep2-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C78515109 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 22:50:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from outpost.co.nz (b001-m004-p008.wgtn.clear.net.nz [203.167.240.200]) by fep2-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA12683; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:45:46 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199904220545.RAA12683@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> Received: (qmail 406 invoked from network); 22 Apr 1999 03:26:08 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.acme.gen.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by evil-smelling-bugger.acme.gen.nz with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 03:26:08 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:25:44 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Another Successful Installation of FreeBSD Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan was just mentioning that people only notice when something goes wrong. So while I'm just completing the successful install of another brand new FreeBSD server for us, I thought I'd mention how superbly straightforward the installation procedure is. Unlike some here I don't have a room full of FreeBSD servers dating back 6 years, but I've had a single machine (which started FreeBSD life as a 386DX40 and is currently a P75) running FreeBSD since 2.0.5, and it's been uniformly a hassle-free existence. It's began life as a dialup UUCP server running INN in a very small way, for the last 16 months it's been my company's dialup PPP gateway and mail server, and now with (at last!) the imminent connection of a real Internet link I'm getting a couple more machines (nothing flash, one P166 and a 486DX4 100) to spread the load around so we can do a little web hosting for a few clients. As you can see, I don't do many installs, I subscribe to the CDs and typically install one version in three. But whenever I do, I'm always impressed by the ease of use of the install program. It just works, with a minimum of strife, and just enough prompting to remind me of the few tricky details I've forgotten since the last time. My hat is off to everyone involved. With FreeBSD I can run a lowcost fileserver for the office Macs and PCs, spend as little time as possible in maintenance/admin, and it just works. -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 23:46:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from uhura.cc.rochester.edu (uhura.cc.rochester.edu [128.151.224.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE97014FCE for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:46:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dd002f@uhura.cc.rochester.edu) Received: from localhost (dd002f@localhost) by uhura.cc.rochester.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id CAA02507 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:43:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Davis Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Another Successful Installation of FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <199904220545.RAA12683@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hear hear! I would like to say that I think the installation procedure for FreeBSD is absolutely wonderful, and is the reason I am currently using it rather than Linux. About a year and a half ago, I came upon Linux while searching for free compilers (I was getting my first real intro to Unix through a comp sci class I was taking). I started looking into it some more, and eventually ordered a Debian CD. However, I was not successful installing, so I gave up on it at the time. After looking for more Unix stuff, I came upon FreeBSD. I figured I would try it out after my unsuccessful Debian endeavour. I installed over ftp, left the installation procedure going while I slept. Woke up in the morning, and lo and behold, it worked! However, the semester ended, I lost my ethernet, and I needed to use the FreeBSD drive as a backup when Windows died, so I was BSD-less for a while. Once I was able to get myself some BSD CDs and a cable modem, I was back in BSD-land, and here I am today. (= Moral of the story: I would probably never have discovered FreeBSD if my interest had not been piqued by Linux. And the fact that BSD's installation procedure was nicer than Debian's kept me here. So Linux's popularity can definitely be a positive thing for FreeBSD, if only we can get the word out. Just thought I would add to the positive feedback for FreeBSD. Like most other people, I only really said anything before when I was having problems. However, I have nothing but praise for the FreeBSD team. You all have done an amazing job of putting out a great product. I wish I could contribute more than praise, but I am a poor college student who cannot code worth a damn (I knew I should have taken more than just those 2 comp sci courses!). Keep up the good work, Jordan et. al.! -Davis To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 23:47:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dewey.mindlink.net (dewey.mindlink.net [204.174.16.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B93BE15948 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from illiad@userfriendly.org) Received: from a2a00858.paralynx.bconnected.net ([209.53.12.221] helo=aspectus) by dewey.mindlink.net with smtp (Exim 2.11 #5) id 10aDDV-0006nw-00; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:44:09 -0700 Message-ID: <012a01be8c8b$f20af620$dd0c35d1@aspectus.bconnected.net> Reply-To: "Illiad" From: "Illiad" To: "Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Wes Peters" , "Marius Bendiksen" , "FreeBSD Chat" , "Greg Lehey" Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Date: Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:47:09 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >Let me just apologise to Illiad right now for what must be one bizarre >thread-from-hell at this point. I don't look like Keanu Reeves and >it's taking me one hell of a lot longer to learn Kung Fu than it took >him in the movie, so I don't think these comparisons hold much water. Quite frankly I found the whole thread rather refreshing. You BSDers are a mad bunch. :-) I should also say that you've given me a few ideas. Thanks people. >I will, however, (and for the record), be more than happy to go >out with Carrie Anne Moss (the actress who played "Trinity") if >she should call me. My number is in the book, Carrie! :-) Heh. Get in line. Behind me. Carrie-Anne Moss is from Vancouver, B.C., my hometown. ;-) Illiad ==================================== Illiad * illiad@userfriendly.org User Friendly, the Comic Strip http://www.userfriendly.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 21 23:58:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2043715948 for ; Wed, 21 Apr 1999 23:58:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10aDOy-0005Ec-0A; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:56:00 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id HAA02032; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:55:30 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id HAA01464; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:55:28 +0100 Message-ID: <371EC7A9.BF595F19@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:54:33 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: crh@outpost.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Daemon Screen Saver References: <199904220545.RAA12739@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Craig Harding wrote: > > This is enormously cool! I've always liked the stars saver, which is > pretty impressive for something done in ASCII text, but the Daemon > saver (is this new to 3.1?) is something else entirely!!!! Fabbo! > The ASCII art one has been around for several releases now. In 3.1 there's also a graphics mode one. > -- C. > -- > Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd > "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 0:25:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABB7514DAD for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:25:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id JAA14744 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:22:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12046 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:22:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:22:52 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church" In-Reply-To: <199904220352.WAA02149@neuman.interaccess.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Someone please block this sucker! --- Marius Bendiksen, ScanCall AS On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Book_Sale wrote: > CALL TODAY TO ORDER THIS BOOK - (800) 305-1458 [24hrs.] > -------------------------------------------------- > "What nobody had the nerve to tell you until now." > "Real evidence of what you only suspected." > "The Black Church as you've never known it before." > > > Pulpit Confessions: > Exposing The Black Church > > by > N. Moore > > $16.00 > ISBN: 0-9658299-2-8 > _____________________________ > Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church is an honest, > behind the scenes look at the African-American church. The > author spent a decade as a preacher and pastor in the black > church and is actually betraying an unofficial code of > silence by writing this book. > > The author began ministry in his teens and was pastoring > by his early twenties. He speaks frankly about his and other > ministers' odysseys from sincere, well intentioned prodigies > to cynical, sinful, showman. > > He soon discovered that things in the church were not as they > seemed. In this ground-breaking book, he describes a secular > and often profane ministerial community that is often shrouded > in pseudo holiness. > > He exposes the thoughts and motivations of both ministers and > congregations and their degenerate power struggles which > often turn violent. > > He pulls no punches when he untangles the myths, unravels the > mystique and reveals the secrets of the Black Church. > > _____________________________ > > ORDERING INFORMATION > **Book will be sent via COD.** > **COD charges are free for a limited time*** > Pulpit Confessions: > Exposing The Black Church > by > N. Moore > $16.00 > ISBN: 0-9658299-2-8 > $3.00 Shipping > _____________________________ > Order By Phone > 800-305-1458 > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 0:27:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7794C1513F for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 00:27:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id JAA15721; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:25:12 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12058; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:25:12 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:25:12 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... In-Reply-To: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, this could make wonderful advocacy, if rendered. --- Marius Bendiksen, ScanCall AS On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Last night I had this dream about Chuck (no it's not sexual). The > whole thing was done in povray-style graphics. In it Chuck is walking > with the Penguin up a steep incline to a 1000 foot cliff where a > caricatured Bill Gates is standing looking wistfully out over the > expanse before him. He said, "I wish..." then both Chuck and the > Penguin push him off the cliff. They listen to Gates screaming like a > baby and hollering about SCO on the way down, then they both laugh-- > the Penguin this maniacal cackle, and Chuck this hearty belly laugh. > Then Chuck waves his pitchfork in an arc in front of them and chants > "include bridge.h" and a giant bridge made of sterling silver 1s and > 0s appears. Chuck and the Penguin walk off across it hand in hand > whistling show tunes. > > Do you suppose it means something? > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 1:16:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D37114BD3 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 14414 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 08:13:55 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 14400 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 08:13:54 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 08:13:54 -0000 Message-ID: <371EDA2F.6D6C37D8@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:13:35 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marius Bendiksen wrote: > Hey, this could make wonderful advocacy, if rendered. I have the gift/curse of being able to always remember every vivid detail of every dream I have. If someone with skills in a multimedia animation program would be willing to be the hands, I can help them recreate my dream in animation. POR, the animation style I'm referring to is the kind in the TV shows "Reboot" and "Beast Wars" and a few other recent series. Static images would be okay, but then you wouldn't get to hear Bill Gates screaming like a baby. ;) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 1:53:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D146514EBC for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 01:53:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id KAA14599; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:50:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA12662; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:50:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:50:47 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... In-Reply-To: <371EDA2F.6D6C37D8@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I have the gift/curse of being able to always remember every vivid > detail of every dream I have. If someone with skills in a multimedia I used to be able to do that; now I can't anymore, because I haven't practiced in a while. Dreams are art. Treasure your dreams. :) > and a few other recent series. Static images would be okay, but then > you wouldn't get to hear Bill Gates screaming like a baby. ;) :))) As I said, this sounds great. It could be bundled with the base CD's :) - Marius - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 2: 2:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3A89150C8 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:02:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA47834; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:00:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church" In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:22:52 +0200." Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:00:19 -0700 Message-ID: <47832.924771619@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Someone please block this sucker! Just done. I don't know who interaccess.com is, but they're now spam filtered. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 2:31:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 174AD159BB for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:31:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 28986 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 09:28:40 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 28971 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 09:28:40 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 09:28:40 -0000 Message-ID: <371EEBB6.1B9599A7@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:28:22 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Marius Bendiksen Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Marius Bendiksen wrote: >> I have the gift/curse of being able to always remember every vivid >> detail of every dream I have. If someone with skills in a multimedia > > I used to be able to do that; now I can't anymore, because I haven't > practiced in a while. Dreams are art. Treasure your dreams. :) Well I very deliberately make sure never to write down anything about my dream unless I deem it absolutely neccessary to do so. I have memories of dreams from years ago, way back when I was just a kid. > > and a few other recent series. Static images would be okay, but then > > you wouldn't get to hear Bill Gates screaming like a baby. ;) > > :))) > > As I said, this sounds great. It could be bundled with the base CD's :) I do wonder about what people might think about seeing Chuck and the Penguin cooperating... it could be very controversial. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 2:33:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 02AA8150E2 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:33:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 29348 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 09:30:34 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 29328 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 09:30:33 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 09:30:33 -0000 Message-ID: <371EEC27.EB030491@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:30:15 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Marius Bendiksen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church" References: <47832.924771619@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > Someone please block this sucker! > > Just done. I don't know who interaccess.com is, but they're now > spam filtered. That reminds me, have any of the iName domains be filtered out? I have my roaming address, gryph@mindless.com, but when I tried to subscribe by that address, I never got a reply from majordomo. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 2:38:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2CE15989 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:38:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA48013; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:35:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: Marius Bendiksen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church" In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:30:15 PDT." <371EEC27.EB030491@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:35:40 -0700 Message-ID: <48011.924773740@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > That reminds me, have any of the iName domains be filtered out? I > have my roaming address, gryph@mindless.com, but when I tried to > subscribe by that address, I never got a reply from majordomo. Yep, that was blocked last year (Fri Nov 13 07:02:16 PST 1998) for abuse. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 3:33:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 00972159A3 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 03:25:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10aGdg-0009e1-0B; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:23:26 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id LAA02952; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:22:42 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA04921; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:22:40 +0100 Message-ID: <371EF839.75691F@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:21:45 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: Marius Bendiksen , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... References: <371EDA2F.6D6C37D8@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > Hey, this could make wonderful advocacy, if rendered. > > > I have the gift/curse of being able to always remember every vivid > detail of every dream I have. If someone with skills in a multimedia > animation program would be willing to be the hands, I can help them > recreate my dream in animation. POR, the animation style I'm > referring to is the kind in the TV shows "Reboot" and "Beast Wars" > and a few other recent series. Static images would be okay, but then > you wouldn't get to hear Bill Gates screaming like a baby. ;) > I'm looking at Tasumi Hosokawa's desert scene with Chuck standing on a pile of rocks (on my Sun desktop) and I can visualize your image in this style. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 4:11:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DCE9E15991 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 04:11:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 3610 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 11:08:36 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 3590 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 11:08:35 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 11:08:35 -0000 Message-ID: <371F0322.B7EE823B@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 04:08:18 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: Marius Bendiksen , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... References: <371EDA2F.6D6C37D8@uswest.net> <371EF839.75691F@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > > Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > > > Marius Bendiksen wrote: > > > Hey, this could make wonderful advocacy, if rendered. > > > > > > I have the gift/curse of being able to always remember every vivid > > detail of every dream I have. If someone with skills in a multimedia > > animation program would be willing to be the hands, I can help them > > recreate my dream in animation. POR, the animation style I'm > > referring to is the kind in the TV shows "Reboot" and "Beast Wars" > > and a few other recent series. Static images would be okay, but then > > you wouldn't get to hear Bill Gates screaming like a baby. ;) > > > > I'm looking at Tasumi Hosokawa's desert scene with Chuck standing on a > pile of rocks (on my Sun desktop) and I can visualize your image in > this style. That's quite close, the style in my dream had harder edges and more vivid colours. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 4:11:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.promo.de (mail.Promo.DE [194.45.188.65]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BB0015993 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 04:11:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from stefan.bethke@hanse.de) Received: from d225.promo.de (d225.Promo.DE [194.45.188.225]) by mail.promo.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA08908; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:08:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:08:32 +0200 From: Stefan Bethke To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD Message-ID: <486835.3133775312@d225.promo.de> In-Reply-To: <19990416084612.A49871@ontario.mooseriver.com> Originator-Info: login-id=stefan; server=mail X-Mailer: Mulberry (MacOS) [1.4.2, s/n U-301178] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Josef Grosch wrote: > The SETI@home project at Berkeley has released binaries for FreeBSD. The > page address is > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/unix_cgi You can now also use the port (ports/astro/setiathome). Stefan -- M=FChlendamm 12 | Voice +49-40-256848, +49-177-3504009 D-22089 Hamburg | e-mail: stefan.bethke@hanse.de Germany | stb@freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 4:53:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F2621596D for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 04:53:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 21878 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 11:50:41 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 21869 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 11:50:41 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 11:50:41 -0000 Message-ID: <371F0D00.DA22D070@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 04:50:24 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: When speaking about unix... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How do you one pronouce various programs and parts of unix? I'm always getting into little debates about the correct pronunication of commands/programs. One example would be gnome--silent g or gee-nome? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 4:57:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE4181596D for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 04:57:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA22953; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:54:42 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:54:42 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When speaking about unix... In-Reply-To: <371F0D00.DA22D070@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I thought it was guh-nome :-) Andrew Pery On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 04:50:24 -0700 > From: Darren Pilgrim > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: When speaking about unix... > > How do you one pronouce various programs and parts of unix? I'm > always getting into little debates about the correct pronunication of > commands/programs. One example would be gnome--silent g or gee-nome? > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 5: 4:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from octopus.originative (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 594301596D for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:03:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by octopus with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:59:17 +0100 Message-ID: From: paul@originative.co.uk To: dpilgrim@uswest.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: When speaking about unix... Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:59:17 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Darren Pilgrim [mailto:dpilgrim@uswest.net] > Sent: 22 April 1999 12:50 > To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: When speaking about unix... > > > How do you one pronouce various programs and parts of unix? I'm > always getting into little debates about the correct pronunication of > commands/programs. One example would be gnome--silent g or gee-nome? A web page on common pronunciations would be useful. I often have the same problem myself, not that it will stop the discussions since people pronounce things how they want mostly, Linux being one of my favourites since despite Linus putting out a sound sample of how it should be pronounced most users still insist it's the other way. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 5: 5: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from octopus.originative (originat.demon.co.uk [158.152.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42586159CB for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:05:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paul@originative.co.uk) Received: by octopus with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) id ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:00:39 +0100 Message-ID: From: paul@originative.co.uk To: dpilgrim@uswest.net, marko@uk.radan.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: I dream of Chuck... Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:00:38 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > -----Original Message----- > From: Darren Pilgrim [mailto:dpilgrim@uswest.net] > Sent: 22 April 1999 00:59 > To: Mark Ovens > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... > > > Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 02:28:59PM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > >> Last night I had this dream about Chuck (no it's not sexual). The > >> whole thing was done in povray-style graphics. In it > Chuck is walking > >> with the Penguin up a steep incline to a 1000 foot cliff where a > >> caricatured Bill Gates is standing looking wistfully out over the > >> expanse before him. He said, "I wish..." then both Chuck and the > >> Penguin push him off the cliff. They listen to Gates > screaming like a > >> baby and hollering about SCO on the way down, then they > both laugh-- > >> the Penguin this maniacal cackle, and Chuck this hearty > belly laugh. > >> Then Chuck waves his pitchfork in an arc in front of them > and chants > >> "include bridge.h" and a giant bridge made of sterling > silver 1s and > >> 0s appears. Chuck and the Penguin walk off across it hand in hand > >> whistling show tunes. > >> > >> Do you suppose it means something? > > > > Time to kick your habit ;-) > > I don't have a clicking problem! > > > Mind you, it would make I great graphic - any POVray experts out > > there? > > There's an idea! Make a Quicktime or Fly movie out of my dream. Use > it as part of the proposed FreeBSD demo, or at Linuxworld. > There are restrictions on what you can do with the daemon, attacking other OS's/Companies being one of them. The co-operation with the Penguin might be an useful image but you couldn't do one attacking Bill. Paul. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 5:19:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6BA15344 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:19:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip82.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.82]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B4FB37067; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:16:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA03690; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:17:19 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:17:18 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Dan Langille Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) Message-ID: <19990422071718.O1053@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: ; <19990421132316.J84628@holly.dyndns.org> <19990421200610.ULJN5596385.mta1-rme@wocker> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <19990421200610.ULJN5596385.mta1-rme@wocker>; from Dan Langille on Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 08:04:22AM +1200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 21, 1999, Dan Langille wrote: > Will the video be available for public distribution? Sure, why not? > -- > Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited > The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/freebsd/ > NZ FreeBSD User Group - http://www.nzfug.nz.freebsd.org/ > The Racing System - http://www.racingsystem.com/racingsystem.htm > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Chris Costello Unprecedented performance: Nothing ever ran this slow before. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 5:40:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B85B153FE for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:40:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10aIk2-0000AR-0B; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:38:07 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA03665; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:37:43 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA07854; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:37:41 +0100 Message-ID: <371F17DD.92FB75BC@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:36:45 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: paul@originative.co.uk Cc: dpilgrim@uswest.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org paul@originative.co.uk wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Darren Pilgrim [mailto:dpilgrim@uswest.net] > > Sent: 22 April 1999 00:59 > > To: Mark Ovens > > Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > > Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... > > > > > > Mark Ovens wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 02:28:59PM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > >> Last night I had this dream about Chuck (no it's not sexual). The > > >> whole thing was done in povray-style graphics. In it > > Chuck is walking > > >> with the Penguin up a steep incline to a 1000 foot cliff where a > > >> caricatured Bill Gates is standing looking wistfully out over the > > >> expanse before him. He said, "I wish..." then both Chuck and the > > >> Penguin push him off the cliff. They listen to Gates > > screaming like a > > >> baby and hollering about SCO on the way down, then they > > both laugh-- > > >> the Penguin this maniacal cackle, and Chuck this hearty > > belly laugh. > > >> Then Chuck waves his pitchfork in an arc in front of them > > and chants > > >> "include bridge.h" and a giant bridge made of sterling > > silver 1s and > > >> 0s appears. Chuck and the Penguin walk off across it hand in hand > > >> whistling show tunes. > > >> > > >> Do you suppose it means something? > > > > > > Time to kick your habit ;-) > > > > I don't have a clicking problem! > > > > > Mind you, it would make I great graphic - any POVray experts out > > > there? > > > > There's an idea! Make a Quicktime or Fly movie out of my dream. Use > > it as part of the proposed FreeBSD demo, or at Linuxworld. > > > > There are restrictions on what you can do with the daemon, attacking other > OS's/Companies being one of them. > > The co-operation with the Penguin might be an useful image I agree. I've never understood why there is such aggressive "competition" between Linux and *BSD, after all both are free OS's so neither has any real financial gain to be made (except for the distributors of course) by having a bigger market share. I've come to the conclusion that it's stubborn pride on the part of (some of) those main players in the projects. Promoting (& encouraging) a friendly relationship would be a Good Thing(tm), IMHO of course. > but you couldn't do one attacking Bill. > Why not? It's an international sport isn't it ;-) > Paul. -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 5:43:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tele-post-20.mail.demon.net (tele-post-20.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFF1515166 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by tele-post-20.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #2) id 10aImh-0002bD-0K; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:40:51 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA03668; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:39:53 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA07884; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:39:51 +0100 Message-ID: <371F185F.BBD9DB6E@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:38:56 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When speaking about unix... References: <371F0D00.DA22D070@uswest.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > How do you one pronouce various programs and parts of unix? I'm > always getting into little debates about the correct pronunication of > commands/programs. One example would be gnome--silent g or gee-nome? > I think of it as a slient 'g', but maybe it should be guh-nome, as in GNU? > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 5:45:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8EC1A14ED8 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:45:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10aIol-0000ql-0B; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:43:00 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id NAA03693; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:42:53 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA07942; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:42:52 +0100 Message-ID: <371F1915.7E2AC5E0@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:41:57 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: paul@originative.co.uk Cc: dpilgrim@uswest.net, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When speaking about unix... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org paul@originative.co.uk wrote: > > Linux being one of my favourites since despite > Linus putting out a sound sample of how it should be pronounced most users > still insist it's the other way. > That's because most English speakers think Linus is pronounced Line-uss, as in Charlie Brown & Peanuts. As Linus proves in the sound sample you mentioned, Scandanavians pronounce it Leen-uus. > Paul. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 5:57:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id A415414F27 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:57:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 28847 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 12:55:22 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 28826 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 12:55:21 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 12:55:21 -0000 Message-ID: <371F1C29.2E0A9EDA@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:55:05 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: paul@originative.co.uk, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When speaking about unix... References: <371F1915.7E2AC5E0@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > paul@originative.co.uk wrote: >> Linux being one of my favourites since despite >> Linus putting out a sound sample of how it should be pronounced most users >> still insist it's the other way. > > That's because most English speakers think Linus is pronounced > Line-uss, as in Charlie Brown & Peanuts. > > As Linus proves in the sound sample you mentioned, Scandanavians > pronounce it Leen-uus. I and my good friend Sam (who got me into Linux way back at kernel v1.2) pronounce it Lih-nicks. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 6: 1:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 5DBA81503A for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:01:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 29714 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 12:58:34 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 29693 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 12:58:34 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 12:58:34 -0000 Message-ID: <371F1CE9.4E51CC77@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 05:58:17 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Andrew Perry Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When speaking about unix... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew Perry wrote: > On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >> How do you one pronouce various programs and parts of unix? I'm >> always getting into little debates about the correct pronunication of >> commands/programs. One example would be gnome--silent g or gee-nome? > > I thought it was guh-nome Ah, but can you say that in public without sounding silly? I think not. Then again, most people dismiss unix folk as insane anyway so maybe it doesn't matter. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 6: 5: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 08784153E3 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:05:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 832 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 13:02:29 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 818 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 13:02:28 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 13:02:28 -0000 Message-ID: <371F1DD3.1B79D67E@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 06:02:11 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: When speaking about unix... References: <371F0D00.DA22D070@uswest.net> <371F185F.BBD9DB6E@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > > Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > > > How do you one pronouce various programs and parts of unix? I'm > > always getting into little debates about the correct pronunication of > > commands/programs. One example would be gnome--silent g or gee-nome? > > > > I think of it as a slient 'g', but maybe it should be guh-nome, as in > GNU? I though, up until I heard someone speak it, that GNU was pronounced "new". It makes we wonder why the unix people of lore didn't add a pronunication info to the man pages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 7:24:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1E2E15A1E for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:24:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id HAA45542; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:21:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:21:44 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Marius Bendiksen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church" Message-ID: <19990422072144.A45514@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <47832.924771619@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <47832.924771619@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 02:00:19AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 02:00:19AM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Someone please block this sucker! > > Just done. I don't know who interaccess.com is, but they're now > spam filtered. Interaccess is a small ISP on the North Shore of Chicago. I used to use them when I lived in Chicago. They were/are a FreeBSD shop. It looks like they are decending into spammer heaven. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 7:52: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C00159EE for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 07:52:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA02864; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:48:58 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <371F36D8.EB05BA62@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:48:56 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Illiad Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Marius Bendiksen , FreeBSD Chat , Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: <012a01be8c8b$f20af620$dd0c35d1@aspectus.bconnected.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Illiad wrote: > > >Let me just apologise to Illiad right now for what must be one bizarre > >thread-from-hell at this point. I don't look like Keanu Reeves and > >it's taking me one hell of a lot longer to learn Kung Fu than it took > >him in the movie, so I don't think these comparisons hold much water. > > Quite frankly I found the whole thread rather refreshing. You BSDers are a > mad bunch. :-) Why thank you. > I should also say that you've given me a few ideas. Thanks people. I can't wait. > >I will, however, (and for the record), be more than happy to go > >out with Carrie Anne Moss (the actress who played "Trinity") if > >she should call me. My number is in the book, Carrie! :-) > > Heh. Get in line. Behind me. Carrie-Anne Moss is from Vancouver, B.C., my > hometown. ;-) So who is she more likely to date, a famous talented cartoonist or the leader of the "Freenix" world? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 8:37: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC08014D64 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:36:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.2/8.9.1) id IAA50453 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:34:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mph) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:34:29 -0700 From: Matthew Hunt To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I dream of Chuck... Message-ID: <19990422083429.A50351@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <371E431B.1D123A85@uswest.net> <46502.924751732@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <46502.924751732@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 08:28:52PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 08:28:52PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Do you suppose it means something? > Yeah, no more salsa before bedtime for *you*! It should be fine as long as you don't use the "special" cilantro. -- Matthew Hunt * Science rules. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 9:35: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C2BD153A0 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:34:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id LAA93780; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:32:27 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:32:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When speaking about unix... In-Reply-To: <371F0D00.DA22D070@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > How do you one pronouce various programs and parts of unix? I'm > always getting into little debates about the correct pronunication of > commands/programs. One example would be gnome--silent g or gee-nome? Go watch 'The Wizard of Oz' for the correct pronunciation of gnome. ;-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures (SPARC under development). ( http://www.freebsd.org ) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 9:53: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lab.cba.ualr.edu (lab.cba.ualr.edu [144.167.120.221]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CC15159D7 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:52:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joe@lab.cba.ualr.edu) Received: from team7.cba.ualr.edu (team7.cba.ualr.edu [144.167.120.24]) by lab.cba.ualr.edu (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id LAA00563; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:51:17 -0500 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:48:31 -0500 (CDT) From: joe X-Sender: joe@team7.cba.ualr.edu To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: Andrew Perry , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When speaking about unix... In-Reply-To: <371F1CE9.4E51CC77@uswest.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > Andrew Perry wrote: > > On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > >> How do you one pronouce various programs and parts of unix? I'm > >> always getting into little debates about the correct pronunication of > >> commands/programs. One example would be gnome--silent g or gee-nome? > > > > I thought it was guh-nome > > Ah, but can you say that in public without sounding silly? I think > not. Then again, most people dismiss unix folk as insane anyway so > maybe it doesn't matter. :-) > In some Middle Eastern countries, the "guh-nome" pronunciation is a derogatory word and not to be spoken in public. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 9:53:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id CB668159E3; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:53:33 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: illiad@userfriendly.org Cc: asmodai@wxs.nl, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, wes@softweyr.com, mbendiks@eunet.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com In-reply-to: <012a01be8c8b$f20af620$dd0c35d1@aspectus.bconnected.net> (illiad@userfriendly.org) Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Message-Id: <19990422165333.CB668159E3@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:53:33 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Heh. Get in line. Behind me. Carrie-Anne Moss is from Vancouver, B.C., my > hometown. ;-) no problem....plenty of Carrie's to go around. whos wants the one from the moive "Carrie"? jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 9:58:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 0C5B114ECC; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:58:55 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: dpilgrim@uswest.net Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, mbendiks@eunet.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <371EEC27.EB030491@uswest.net> (message from Darren Pilgrim on Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:30:15 -0700) Subject: Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church" Message-Id: <19990422165855.0C5B114ECC@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > spam filtered. > > That reminds me, have any of the iName domains be filtered out? I > have my roaming address, gryph@mindless.com, but when I tried to > subscribe by that address, I never got a reply from majordomo. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > when was that ? if you have unexplainable mmajordomo problems, please let me know. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 10: 4:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52DE1159FE for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:04:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA10136; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:01:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:01:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Steve Price Cc: Randall Hopper , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "dougwhite: fork failed - too many processes" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Steve Price wrote: > Doug is indeed an amusing guy. Welcome back Doug! :) Just wait > until you catch one of his lunch-time sprees where 50+ messages > in succession will be from him. It is truly a beautiful site to > behold. ;) Yesterday I hadn't read for a while and had to mow through 700 messages .. that took a while. It takes 3-4 hours to run though that kind of load. > On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Randall Hopper wrote: > > # Man Doug! How do you do it!?! If I knew your secret, maybe I could use > # the same trick to increase my productivity 8^) > # > # (I see more than 97 help replies from you in 2 days. Really incredible! :-) As you may have guessed, things are a bit slow around the workplace. :) Doug White Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 10:21:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mescalero.asd1.rl.ac.uk (mescalero.asd1.rl.ac.uk [130.246.170.11]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAB0314EBB for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 10:21:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tmb@mescalero.asd1.rl.ac.uk) Received: (from tmb@localhost) by mescalero.asd1.rl.ac.uk (8.9.2/8.9.2) id SAA36077; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:18:24 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from tmb) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:18:24 +0100 From: Mark Blackman To: jack Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Linux comparison page gone Message-ID: <19990422181823.A36043@rcru.rl.ac.uk> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from jack on Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 08:37:16PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's still available but now you have to register and pay $1295 for it. Maybe it's an indication of how popular it was. On Tue, Apr 20, 1999 at 08:37:16PM -0400, jack wrote: > I just tried to send someone to > > http://advisor.gartner.com/n_inbox/hotcontent/hc_2121999_3.html > > seems that page is no longer there. Oddly enough, that day's > other two, more favorable to linux, articles are still up. :( > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst > jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. > Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. > PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD > enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Mark To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 11:37:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78C571508B for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 11:37:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id UAA09573; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:34:33 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA17648; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:34:33 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:34:33 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church" In-Reply-To: <47832.924771619@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Thanks. --- Marius Bendiksen, ScanCall AS On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Someone please block this sucker! > > Just done. I don't know who interaccess.com is, but they're now > spam filtered. > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 12:12:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA65614CCD; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:12:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA49760; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:09:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: illiad@userfriendly.org, asmodai@wxs.nl, wes@softweyr.com, mbendiks@eunet.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Apr 1999 09:53:33 PDT." <19990422165333.CB668159E3@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:09:56 -0700 Message-ID: <49758.924808196@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > no problem....plenty of Carrie's to go around. > whos wants the one from the moive "Carrie"? I'm cool with that too. I've always digged chicks who could blow things up and/or set them on fire. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 12:13:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C21D215B2D for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:13:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA49745; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:09:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Wes Peters Cc: Illiad , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , Marius Bendiksen , FreeBSD Chat , Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Apr 1999 08:48:56 MDT." <371F36D8.EB05BA62@softweyr.com> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:09:00 -0700 Message-ID: <49743.924808140@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So who is she more likely to date, a famous talented cartoonist or > the leader of the "Freenix" world? ;^) Time to settle this the old-fashioned way. A duel! :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 12:30:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFCC14D96 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-144.thuntek.net [207.66.52.144]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id NAA05676; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:26:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <371F7795.BC14E693@thuntek.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:25:09 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Wes Peters Cc: Illiad , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Marius Bendiksen , FreeBSD Chat , Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: <012a01be8c8b$f20af620$dd0c35d1@aspectus.bconnected.net> <371F36D8.EB05BA62@softweyr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wes Peters wrote: > > Illiad wrote: > > > > >Let me just apologise to Illiad right now for what must be one bizarre > > >thread-from-hell at this point. I don't look like Keanu Reeves and > > >it's taking me one hell of a lot longer to learn Kung Fu than it took > > >him in the movie, so I don't think these comparisons hold much water. > > > > Quite frankly I found the whole thread rather refreshing. You BSDers are a > > mad bunch. :-) > > Why thank you. > > > I should also say that you've given me a few ideas. Thanks people. > Sometimes "mad" around here has more than one meaning. It can get really funny, with "funny" having more than one meaning... ;-D -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 12:49:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shattered.disturbed.net (shattered.disturbed.net [192.139.81.180]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B05B415242 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 12:49:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from veers@disturbed.net) Received: from shattered.disturbed.net ([192.139.81.180]:41993 "EHLO shattered" ident: "IDENT-NONSENSE") by disturbed.net with ESMTP id <61514-49659>; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:51:26 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:51:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Alex Perel To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Marius Bendiksen , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church" In-Reply-To: <47832.924771619@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Someone please block this sucker! > > Just done. I don't know who interaccess.com is, but they're now > spam filtered. Rather well-sized ISP in the Chicago area.. Alex G. Perel -=- AP5081 alexp@iplink.net -=- (work) veers@disturbed.net -=- (play) Disturbed Networks - Powered exclusively by FreeBSD == The Power to Serve -=- http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 13:18:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from triton.net (mail.triton.net [209.172.0.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F22F514C01 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:18:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jshafer@triton.net) From: jshafer@triton.net (John Shafer) To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: jmb@hub.freebsd.org, postmaster@freebsd.org Subject: Spam blocking (was Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church") Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:00:35 GMT Message-ID: <37257aa5.29474792@mail.triton.net> References: <47832.924771619@zippy.cdrom.com> <371EEC27.EB030491@uswest.net> In-Reply-To: <371EEC27.EB030491@uswest.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.452 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The following is a message that I wrote earlier today, and accidentally sent it only to Darren instead of to the whole list: ---------- On Thu, 22 Apr 1999 02:30:15 -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >"Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: >>=20 >> > Someone please block this sucker! >>=20 >> Just done. I don't know who interaccess.com is, but they're now >> spam filtered. > >That reminds me, have any of the iName domains be filtered out? I >have my roaming address, gryph@mindless.com, but when I tried to >subscribe by that address, I never got a reply from majordomo. Good question. My normal email is jshafer@mindless.com, but everything I send to the lists from it disappears. I don't get bounce messages or anything. I really would prefer not to have to change my address settings here to reply to the lists... =20 ---------- It seems that mindless.com did indeed fall prey to the spam blocks. I do appreciate the spam-free nature of the lists, and realize it isn't an exact science, but I was wondering what our usual policy for dealing with spam was. Do we ban an entire site on the basis of one spammer? Do we make attempts to contact the ISPs in question first? When I first attempted to join -chat and -newbies I was confused because none of my messages received any response. This did _not_ make a very good first impression! I did just send a note to postmaster asking if an exception to the block on mindless.com could be made for my address. Otherwise it becomes prohibitively difficult to take part in list discussions, because first I have to change my mailer configs to use a different, non-blocked address & server, then change it back when I'm done. Thanks, John To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 13:41:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r0.bfm.org [208.18.213.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5846915441 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 13:41:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id PAA02337; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:38:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:38:04 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Message-ID: <19990422153804.B2321@whizkidtech.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990420075641.00b1a5f0@localhost> <199904201841.NAA05137@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> <19990421102449.B224@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990421150131.04614650@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990421150131.04614650@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 03:17:43PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 03:17:43PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Not so. People need to KNOW and BELIEVE that a product serves their needs, > or it is immaterial whether it does or does not do so; it will not become > popular nor will it be given the opportunity to do them good. I have never gotten the impression that FreeBSD was trying to win a popularity contest. :-) Some people appear to be evn worried about it becoming too watered down if it became too popular. Nevertheless, I never got the impression that Jordan was one of them. On the contrary, he is most helpful in answering people's questions, be they seasonsed hackers, or newbies. > If you believe that, then you would not approve of the strategy embraced > by Jordan. It is not mine to approve or disapprove. I am quite happy with FreeBSD running on my computer. And when I see something I need is missing, I write it. I needed tools to convert text files from various types of encoding (such as iso-8859-1, iso-8859-2, the windows nonstandard) to the UTF-8 encoding of Unicode. So, I wrote a library of conversion routines for my own use and posted it on a page of my web site. Much to my surprise, that page instantly became more popular than the rest of my web site combined. So, I submitted the library to the ports collection. Then I wrote four conversion programs that use the library, and submitted those, too. FreeBSD is a good and solid platform, that is all I care about. It is attracting developers such as myself because of its technical superiority. I also compiled the same tools under windows, and they do not work 100% right despite being in ANSI C. They work without a hitch under FreeBSD, and much faster, too. So guess which system all of my development efforts are targetted to? And it has nothing to do with PR. MS sends me regular email updates about all the "great" things they do. They even sent me NT 4 for free. It is sitting on the top of a pile of CD's. As a programmer I have enough technical knowledge to decide on my platform no matter what the PR people are saying. Other programmers have the exact same ability, and generally the same kind of attitude as I do. (Disclaimer: I do not know every programmer in the world, but those I do know tend to have a similar attitude.) > Jordan is attempting to position FreeBSD exclusively as > a server operating system, and is actively steering developers toward > another platform: Linux. These are losing and damaging strategies. Are they? Is he? Yes, he does emphasize the server end of the OS, but I do not have the impression he is doing it to the point of exclusivity. He is pointing out the strengths of FreeBSD. No other OS is as good for servers as FreeBSD. Why should he not bring it out? > The engineer, who has assumed the role of captain without the experience > or worldview required for this very different position, is aiming the > ship right for the rocks. Many previous ships have crashed on those rocks > before. Yes, NeXT comes to mind. The big difference was that NeXT was marketted as a commercial system. The average person could not afford it. Perhaps many of those who could afford it could not justify spending so much money on technology way beyond their perceived need. OS/2 was commercial as well. And it came from IBM, the company that already had its 15 minutes of fame. FreeBSD is free. The developers of free software have a totally different attitude than commercial software companies. Jordan just summed it up in his message to Licia: He writes software for himself, and you're welcome to use it if you want, but if you don't want to, that's fine. I have the same attitude towards my software. I created Graphic Counter Language because I could not find counter software that satisfied my needs. I made it available to anyone who wants it. But at the end of its FAQ I list a web site where people can find other counters if they want them. GCL may be too powerful for some people. All I care about is that people can run counters on their web sites. It makes no difference to me whose counter they use. It makes perfect sense to me that Jordan offers people a choice. He is not motivated by financial gain, but the desire to find a solution to different problems. The most important quality of a good programmer is the ability to solve problems, not the desire to have everyone use his software. Besides, there is an important subtlety in Jordan's method: People do try Linux, then decide FreeBSD is the way to go. Give the man some credit, he is shrewder than it appears. > This might be an interesting project. However, it will be in vain unless > FreeBSD acquires what is needed for its survival. In my humble opinion (not meaning to start any wars), FreeBSD needs easy to follow docs for its survival. Docs written by writers, not programmers. > OS/2 was a good OS, > also, and had some very good books written about it by authors I know. > I wrote quite a few magazine articles about it -- good ones, I thought. > It died (yes, I know that a very few people still do use it) nonetheless > because of (among other things) poor marketing to end users, developers, and > hardware vendors -- maladaptive memes. Yes, but OS/2 was commercial. It's a different ball game. > I have no interest in being in a "Hall of Fame." I would like to obtain, and > be able to use, a robust, technically sound, VERY POPULAR operating system > which is not encumbered by the GPL or doomed by the factors mentioned above. Then help it become popular. Don't look the gift horse in the mouth unless you are an equine dentist offering his services. Jordan et alii have given us freely. We cannot make demands on them. But we sure can join them. Incidentally, I believe that *commercial* developers will be willing to support free software only under the GPL. They will be willing to release source code only if their competition cannot use it for their own gain. Only the developers with the attitude discussed above ("I wrote it for myself, but if you want it you can have it") will use BSD-style licence. Of course, this is the type of developers who give us the best software. :-) The enlightened developers. The unselfish developers. The no-nonsense developers. The developers who are not control freaks. The non-restricting developers. The live-and-let-live developers. The I-do-my-thing-and-you-do-yours developers. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 14: 6:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 17E37159D1 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:06:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 3649 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 21:03:44 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 3583 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 21:03:38 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 21:03:38 -0000 Message-ID: <371F8E98.DF3F7C5B@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:03:20 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, mbendiks@eunet.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church" References: <19990422165855.0C5B114ECC@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jonathan M. Bresler" wrote: >>> spam filtered. >> >> That reminds me, have any of the iName domains be filtered out? I >> have my roaming address, gryph@mindless.com, but when I tried to >> subscribe by that address, I never got a reply from majordomo. > > when was that ? if you have unexplainable mmajordomo > problems, please let me know. It would have been mid/late February of this year. Well my message above covers it, I would send a message to majordomo and never get a reply. I've spoken the JKH about it and, per his recommendation, I sent a message to the postmaster about it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 14:13:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97BD3159A0 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:13:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11968; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:10:45 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:10:34 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990422153804.B2321@whizkidtech.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990421150131.04614650@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990420075641.00b1a5f0@localhost> <199904201841.NAA05137@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> <19990421102449.B224@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990421150131.04614650@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:38 PM 4/22/99 -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > have never gotten the impression that FreeBSD was trying to win a popularity >contest. :-) Some people appear to be evn worried about it becoming too >watered down if it became too popular. This is misguided. It is that which does not reproduce which whithers and dies because the resources are consumed by stronger competitors in the ecosystem. Memes must replicate or be overwhelmed and die. There is nothing whatsoever about the existence or use of more copies that would hurt FreeBSD. >It is not mine to approve or disapprove. I am quite happy with FreeBSD >running on my computer. This is a very narrow worldview. You are neglecting to recognize that, if FreeBSD does not flourish, key software applications will not be available for it and it will be smothered by Linux. >FreeBSD is a good and solid platform, that is all I care about. It is >attracting developers such as myself because of its technical superiority. Again, this is fine, so long as you embrace an individual, short-term viewpoint and neglect the big picture. >> Jordan is attempting to position FreeBSD exclusively as >> a server operating system, and is actively steering developers toward >> another platform: Linux. These are losing and damaging strategies. > >Are they? Is he? If you have not seen this, then you may not have taken the time to become adequately informed about the marketing and positioning of FreeBSD (what little is currently done). The slogan "The Power To Serve" appears on the FreeBSD Web site and on many of the proomotional materials. Representatives of the FreeBSD project and of Walnut Creek CD-ROM actively steer desktop users and software developers (ALL software developers, even if they develop server software) to Linux. >> The engineer, who has assumed the role of captain without the experience >> or worldview required for this very different position, is aiming the >> ship right for the rocks. Many previous ships have crashed on those rocks >> before. > >Yes, NeXT comes to mind. Steve Jobs is not an engineer. NeXT did fail to his blind spots, but they were different blind spots -- including targeting a market with zero potential. >The big difference was that NeXT was marketted as a >commercial system. Not so. NeXT was targeted at academia. On the day of the announcement, Jobs proclaimed that educational institutions were a huge market and he intended to capture it. The fact was, the market was already saturated and there was little demand there for his product. >The average person could not afford it. The machine was not targeted at "the average person." Which was a mistake, but that's another story. >Perhaps many of >those who could afford it could not justify spending so much money on >technology way beyond their perceived need. NeXTStep wasn't particularly advanced compared to other things being done at the time. >OS/2 was commercial as well. The point being? >FreeBSD is free. The developers of free software have a totally different >attitude than commercial software companies. This generalization doesn't wash. The developers of Linux have a very different attitude than the leaders of the FreeBSD development effort. >Jordan just summed it up in his >message to Licia: He writes software for himself, and you're welcome to use it >if you want, but if you don't want to, that's fine. An attitude that's fine for the occasional hacker, but inappropriate for the leader of a product development team. >Besides, there is an important subtlety in Jordan's method: People do try >Linux, then decide FreeBSD is the way to go. Give the man some credit, he is >shrewder than it appears. Do not assume that what worked on you -- a sample of one -- is necessarily shrewd or the correct way to go. MILLIONS of people choose Linux over FreeBSD and stick with it. >In my humble opinion (not meaning to start any wars), FreeBSD needs easy to >follow docs for its survival. Docs written by writers, not programmers. Documentation by no means ensures survival. It certainly didn't for OS/1. >Yes, but OS/2 was commercial. It's a different ball game. Not in this respect. >Incidentally, I believe that *commercial* developers will be willing to >support free software only under the GPL. This is wrongheaded and in fact the opposite of what will actually happen if developers are properly educated (something which should happen as a result of the proper promotion of FreeBSD). Most commercial developers would not support GPLed software if they knew its intent: to put them out of business. Those that are supporting Linux are naive and/or just stupidly hopping the bandwagon. --Brett Glass If nothing else, the brain is an educational toy. -- Tom Robbins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 14:15:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D1DF159D1 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:15:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 8085 invoked by alias); 22 Apr 1999 21:12:42 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 8064 invoked by uid 0); 22 Apr 1999 21:12:41 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 21:12:41 -0000 Message-ID: <371F90B7.86B21CFD@uswest.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:12:23 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Chris Dillon Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When speaking about unix... References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Dillon wrote: > > On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > > How do you one pronouce various programs and parts of unix? I'm > > always getting into little debates about the correct pronunication of > > commands/programs. One example would be gnome--silent g or gee-nome? > > Go watch 'The Wizard of Oz' for the correct pronunciation of gnome. > ;-) Somehow unix referencing The Wizard of Oz doesn't surprise me at all. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 14:22:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AF0F315A43 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:22:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13665; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:36:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:36:42 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Andrew Perry Cc: Darren Pilgrim , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When speaking about unix... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Andrew Perry wrote: > I thought it was guh-nome > :-) No, it's pronouced: "WHY IS IT LINKING EVERY LIBRARY ON MY WHOLE MACHINE???" -Alfred > > Andrew Pery > > On Thu, 22 Apr 1999, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 04:50:24 -0700 > > From: Darren Pilgrim > > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > > Subject: When speaking about unix... > > > > How do you one pronouce various programs and parts of unix? I'm > > always getting into little debates about the correct pronunication of > > commands/programs. One example would be gnome--silent g or gee-nome? > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 14:31: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D2AD14E31 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:30:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:28:20 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Brett Glass" Cc: Subject: RE: FreeBSD and memetics Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:28:19 -0700 Message-ID: <000101be8d07$0ae09350$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If you have not seen this, then you may not have taken the time to > become adequately informed about the marketing and positioning of > FreeBSD (what little is currently done). The slogan "The Power To Serve" > appears on the FreeBSD Web site and on many of the proomotional > materials. Representatives of the FreeBSD project and of Walnut > Creek CD-ROM actively steer desktop users and software developers > (ALL software developers, even if they develop server software) to > Linux. Let's face it, FreeBSD shines as a server and pales in comparison to NT as a desktop OS. You'd have to be pretty blind not to see that. If you had two machines, one to do all your server-type stuff and one to do all your desktop-type stuff, what OS would you run on each? Be honest. That's not to say that FreeBSD shouldn't go in the direction of being a stronger desktop OS. But as far as server OS goes, it's already there. > >Jordan just summed it up in his > >message to Licia: He writes software for himself, and you're > welcome to use it > >if you want, but if you don't want to, that's fine. > > An attitude that's fine for the occasional hacker, but > inappropriate for the > leader of a product development team. Exactly. And that's true whether the product is commercial or not. > >Incidentally, I believe that *commercial* developers will be willing to > >support free software only under the GPL. > > This is wrongheaded and in fact the opposite of what will actually > happen if developers are properly educated (something which should > happen as a result of the proper promotion of FreeBSD). Most > commercial developers > would not support GPLed software if they knew its intent: to put > them out of > business. Those that are supporting Linux are naive and/or just > stupidly hopping > the bandwagon. Actually, in my experience, commercial developers won't go anywhere near the GPL, because it's way to restrictive. Even the BSD license is too restrictive. Commercial developers need to be able to cut and paste code at will, without having to put disclaimers and notices in their manuals. If you want commercial developers to contribute to your code significantly, it really has to be free and unrestricted. Being a commercial developer, I can give you a very good example that occured just recently. One of the products whose development I manage needed a fast, light database. We looked at Gdbm, but we can't go distributing source code and putting notices in our manual. We looked at commercial stuff, and most of it is too slow and heavy, not available on all the platforms we need, or not available royalty-free. So we're going to develop our own. It will be pretty much a gdbm clone with a few extra features (multiple keys, non-unique keys, support for GUID-labelling). Had gdbm been really free, we'd have used it. And we'd happily have released the extra features back to the open source community -- the publicity would have benefitted us and others might have caught bugs that we would miss or enhanced our code for us in other ways. So now everybody loses. We have more work to do, increasing the cost of our software. The open source community loses the code we could have contributed. The quality of our code will probably be lower than it could have been. In my experience, this is _typical_ of open source's affect on the commercial development community. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 14:33: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13B1414E31 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:33:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id XAA96902; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:30:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: crh@outpost.co.nz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Daemon Screen Saver References: <199904220545.RAA12739@fep2-orange.clear.net.nz> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 22 Apr 1999 23:30:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: "Craig Harding"'s message of "Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:48:24 +1200" Message-ID: Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Craig Harding" writes: > This is enormously cool! I've always liked the stars saver, which is > pretty impressive for something done in ASCII text, but the Daemon > saver (is this new to 3.1?) is something else entirely!!!! Fabbo! No, it's been there as long for as I can remember. 3.1 has new graphical versions of both (warp_saver and logo_saver), courtesy of yours truly. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 14:44:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from leap.innerx.net (leap.innerx.net [38.179.176.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57D741596E for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:44:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ip82.houston2.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.11.201.82]) by leap.innerx.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB02037012; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:42:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA13552; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:42:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:42:38 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Brett Glass Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Message-ID: <19990422164235.A7013@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <4.2.0.32.19990421150131.04614650@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990420075641.00b1a5f0@localhost> <199904201841.NAA05137@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> <19990421102449.B224@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990421150131.04614650@localhost> <19990422153804.B2321@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 03:10:34PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 22, 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > >> Jordan is attempting to position FreeBSD exclusively as > >> a server operating system, and is actively steering developers toward > >> another platform: Linux. These are losing and damaging strategies. > > > >Are they? Is he? > > If you have not seen this, then you may not have taken the time to > become adequately informed about the marketing and positioning of > FreeBSD (what little is currently done). The slogan "The Power To Serve" > appears on the FreeBSD Web site and on many of the proomotional > materials. Representatives of the FreeBSD project and of Walnut > Creek CD-ROM actively steer desktop users and software developers > (ALL software developers, even if they develop server software) to > Linux. What you've missed is that FreeBSD representatives in fact do *not* steer users towards Linux. Where do you get this idea, anyway? > Do not assume that what worked on you -- a sample of one -- is necessarily > shrewd or the correct way to go. MILLIONS of people choose Linux over > FreeBSD and stick with it. How many times have you actively targeted users to get them to use FreeBSD? -- Chris Costello I bet the human brain is a kludge. - Marvin Minsky To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 15:38: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402DF14D74 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:37:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA12852; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:34:53 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990422162950.0459b4b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:34:40 -0600 To: chris@calldei.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990422164235.A7013@holly.dyndns.org> References: <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990421150131.04614650@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990420075641.00b1a5f0@localhost> <199904201841.NAA05137@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> <19990421102449.B224@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990421150131.04614650@localhost> <19990422153804.B2321@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:42 PM 4/22/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > What you've missed is that FreeBSD representatives >in fact do *not* steer users towards Linux. Where do >you get this idea, anyway? For two reasons. First, by saying that FreeBSD is positioned as a server, they chase people who are interested in UNIX on the client desktop to Linux. Second, they steer DEVELOPERS who are looking to target a UNIX platform toward Linux. Here is a direct quote from Jordan Hubbard: "I urge any ISV who's just thinking of getting into the Unix market for the first time to consider Linux as a first porting target in order to get the maximum bang for the buck." Of course, once they do, their next ports are to Solaris, then SCO, etc.... They just don't ever do FreeBSD, because FreeBSD users run their software under emulation. >How many times have you actively targeted users to >get them to use FreeBSD? Quite a few, at least when I was doing advocacy. I was asked to stop by Mr. Hubbard, who told me point blank -- at the LinuxWorld show, no less -- that he did not want FreeBSD to have passionate advocacy. --Brett Glass If nothing else, the brain is an educational toy. -- Tom Robbins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 16:48:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (fep1-orange.clear.net.nz [203.97.32.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3EAC15410 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:48:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: from outpost.co.nz (b001-m004-p030.wgtn.clear.net.nz [203.167.240.222]) by fep1-orange.clear.net.nz (1.5/1.11) with ESMTP id LAA12064; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:45:38 +1200 (NZST) Message-Id: <199904222345.LAA12064@fep1-orange.clear.net.nz> Received: (qmail 2786 invoked from network); 22 Apr 1999 23:31:17 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.acme.gen.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by evil-smelling-bugger.acme.gen.nz with SMTP; 22 Apr 1999 23:31:17 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: Brett Glass Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:30:57 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> References: <19990422153804.B2321@whizkidtech.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > >> Jordan is attempting to position FreeBSD exclusively as > >> a server operating system, and is actively steering developers > >> toward another platform: Linux. These are losing and damaging > >> strategies. > > > >Are they? Is he? > > If you have not seen this, then you may not have taken the time to > become adequately informed about the marketing and positioning of > FreeBSD (what little is currently done). The slogan "The Power To > Serve" appears on the FreeBSD Web site and on many of the > proomotional materials. Representatives of the FreeBSD project and > of Walnut Creek CD-ROM actively steer desktop users and software > developers (ALL software developers, even if they develop server > software) to Linux. Brett, this paragraph, in a nutshell, is why people find you incredibly irritating at times. Your long message that started this thread was remarkably well written and insightful, but your continued attacks on Jordan (and the core team collectively) are probably singularly responsible for encouraging people to disregard everything you say without really listening. Even when you say something interesting or useful, people are already not listening and so never get to hear it. In this specific case, only a week ago Jordan posted the following to FreeBSD Chat: JKH> For example, I'm widely quoted as saying that I actively JKH> discourage native FreeBSD ports when what I originally JKH> said was (and pay close attention) "For those companies JKH> who are contemplating ONLY a single port, or are just JKH> getting back into the Unix market and only have the JKH> initial resources for one port, I encourage them to port JKH> to Linux and get the widest possible user base." I didn't JKH> say I didn't want any FreeBSD ports at all, I said that if JKH> you're only going to do one, you might as well make it JKH> Linux and not, say, SCO or Solaris because our chances of JKH> running either binary are frankly much smaller. This is JKH> just common sense, especially when you figure that any JKH> company which does re-enter the Unix market and gets JKH> burned is not going to be a vendor which is easy to JKH> convince to try again. > Do not assume that what worked on you -- a sample of one -- is > necessarily shrewd or the correct way to go. MILLIONS of people > choose Linux over FreeBSD and stick with it. This is a superb example of creative writing with statistics. Actually I think you'll find that "MILLIONS" of peple choose Linux because they've never seen FreeBSD. I'm sure you'll now reply with a long tirade about how yes, that's exactly the problem, and it's all Jordan, the Core team, and Walnut Creek's fault for not doing marketing & PR well enough for those Linux novices to encounter FreeBSD..... Several things: 1. That argument is bullshit. 2. It's got nothing to do with FreeBSD's marketing or lack of. As many people have pointed out, Linux is bigger because it's bigger. It got going first. The more people use it, the more new people encounter it. Linux had a two year head start. 3. Newspaper (real or virtual) column inches are not reality. You, of all people, should know this. According to the people who are in a position to know (eg I think a recent message from David Greenman) FreeBSD usage continues to increase at an increasing rate. 4. In case you haven't already noticed, the guaranteed least successful way to have something done (changed/implemented/added/fixed) in FreeBSD is to point at it and scream loudly at some random assortment of developers "This is broken. Fix it!". Going into long detailed explanations about why specifically it's broken and how urgently it needs to be fixed doesn't change that. This applies as much to marketing as it does to NFS. > >The big difference was that NeXT was marketted as a > >commercial system. > > Not so. NeXT was targeted at academia. On the day of the > announcement, Jobs proclaimed that educational institutions were a > huge market and he intended to capture it. The fact was, the market > was already saturated and there was little demand there for his > product. Actually, you're both wrong. NeXT failed because they had the butt-ugliest logo known to mankind. -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 16:48:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r0.bfm.org [208.18.213.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B71A015416 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:48:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id SAA00264; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:45:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:45:13 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Message-ID: <19990422184513.A248@whizkidtech.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990421150131.04614650@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> <4.2.0.32.19990420075641.00b1a5f0@localhost> <199904201841.NAA05137@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990420204456.00b25160@localhost> <19990421102449.B224@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990421150131.04614650@localhost> <19990422153804.B2321@whizkidtech.net> <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 03:10:34PM -0600 X-Mutt-References: <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 03:10:34PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > have never gotten the impression that FreeBSD was trying to win a popularity > >contest. :-) Some people appear to be evn worried about it becoming too > >watered down if it became too popular. > > This is misguided. It is that which does not reproduce which whithers > and dies because the resources are consumed by stronger competitors in > the ecosystem. Memes must replicate or be overwhelmed and die. > > There is nothing whatsoever about the existence or use of more copies that > would hurt FreeBSD. No argument there. The more the merrier. I could not care less about the memes (heck, I have not see anyone taking them seriously for the last ten years), but I agree it is good to see FreeBSD usage growing. > >It is not mine to approve or disapprove. I am quite happy with FreeBSD > >running on my computer. > > This is a very narrow worldview. Yes, it is. At least when taken out of context. > You are neglecting to recognize that, > if FreeBSD does not flourish, key software applications will not be > available for it and it will be smothered by Linux. Of course, FreeBSD can run Linux applications faster than Linux. Isn't that neat? > >FreeBSD is a good and solid platform, that is all I care about. It is > >attracting developers such as myself because of its technical superiority. > > Again, this is fine, so long as you embrace an individual, short-term > viewpoint and neglect the big picture. Again, quoted out of context. It is all I care about as a developer choosing the right platform for my software. You were concerned about FreeBSD not attracting developers. It attracted me, without even trying. > If you have not seen this, then you may not have taken the time to > become adequately informed about the marketing and positioning of > FreeBSD (what little is currently done). The slogan "The Power To Serve" > appears on the FreeBSD Web site and on many of the proomotional > materials. Representatives of the FreeBSD project and of Walnut > Creek CD-ROM actively steer desktop users and software developers > (ALL software developers, even if they develop server software) to > Linux. I have taken the time, thank you. Jordan's position has been that there are many options to choose from and that it is good. I happen to agree, you appear not to. I see no threat in Linux. Linux serves a totally different purpose than FreeBSD. And people to whom it serves better purpose should be encouraged to use Linux. Different strokes for different folks. Yes, I have seen Jordan suggesting to developers (not ALL, though) to develop for Linux. Again, taken out of context, that may sound horrible, but within the context it made perfect sense (and still does). A developer who wants to write applications for as many users as possible should write them for Linux because then they can run on both platforms. Applications written for FreeBSD only, on the other hand, can only run on FreeBSD. This is the irony of being the more powerful and more flexible OS. Developers should only write FreeBSD specific software if that software requires the extra power of FreeBSD. If Jordan tried to convince developers to limit their programs to FreeBSD even if they could write them to run on both, he would be unethical. He is doing the right thing. It is not us vs. them when it comes to FreeBSD and Linux, it is about making good quality free software available to as many users as possible. We are in the same boat even if we use different brand of paddles. > >The big difference was that NeXT was marketted as a > >commercial system. > > Not so. NeXT was targeted at academia. On the day of the announcement, > Jobs proclaimed that educational institutions were a huge market and he > intended to capture it. The fact was, the market was already saturated > and there was little demand there for his product. Academia is commercial market. Everyone who pays for software is commercial market. Nor is it a bad strategy to target schools. It used to work for Apple quite well. Hook students on a system, and they will want the same system when they graduate. The reasons that Apple is no longer a major player have nothing to do with that strategy. It is the ridiculous demands they make on resellers. I live in a small town. I wanted to be an Apple reseller. Sure, as long as I guarantee I'll make Apple a million dollars a year. Even if every household in my town bought a brand new Mac every year I could not guarantee it. So, begrudgingly I stuck with Microsoft. That is, until I discovered FreeBSD. > >OS/2 was commercial as well. > > The point being? The point was discussed in that message at great length. I see no need to repeat it. > >FreeBSD is free. The developers of free software have a totally different > >attitude than commercial software companies. > > This generalization doesn't wash. The developers of Linux have a very different > attitude than the leaders of the FreeBSD development effort. Of course they do. They cater to a different niche. > >Jordan just summed it up in his > >message to Licia: He writes software for himself, and you're welcome to use it > >if you want, but if you don't want to, that's fine. > > An attitude that's fine for the occasional hacker, but inappropriate for the > leader of a product development team. That attitude is what made him the leader of the team. FreeBSD is developed by people who want a better OS for themselves, while having no problem sharing it with others. That is why it is so good. > >Besides, there is an important subtlety in Jordan's method: People do try > >Linux, then decide FreeBSD is the way to go. Give the man some credit, he is > >shrewder than it appears. > > Do not assume that what worked on you -- a sample of one -- is necessarily > shrewd or the correct way to go. MILLIONS of people choose Linux over > FreeBSD and stick with it. So? Millions of people have chosen something other than Buddhism and stick with it. That does not bother me. In fact, I am happy they found a path that works for them. We are not Immortals of Highlander: There can be more than one. > >In my humble opinion (not meaning to start any wars), FreeBSD needs easy to > >follow docs for its survival. Docs written by writers, not programmers. > > Documentation by no means ensures survival. It certainly didn't for OS/1. I did not say it ensures survival. I said we need it. I did not imply we need nothing else. I just think you would be good at writing documentation, and it would be helpful if you did. > >Incidentally, I believe that *commercial* developers will be willing to > >support free software only under the GPL. > > This is wrongheaded and in fact the opposite of what will actually > happen if developers are properly educated (something which should > happen as a result of the proper promotion of FreeBSD). Most commercial developers > would not support GPLed software if they knew its intent: to put them out of > business. Those that are supporting Linux are naive and/or just stupidly hopping > the bandwagon. It is not the developers I was talking about. It is about those who sign their paychecks. They are not likely to want to give out the source code to people who then can use it without letting them know how they improved it. In fact, I am surprised they give out the source code at all. But as long as they do, it makes better sense for them (and I am talking about a specific group of people, not generalizing) to make sure that if anyone does further work on their code, they have access to it. I don't believe it is going to work for them in the long though. I expect most commercial developers to go back to hiding their code again. Well, I typed this in a hurry. I gotta go see the Matrix... TTFN, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 17: 3:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1D9115454 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 17:03:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10aTOu-0007Sc-0C; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 00:01:00 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id BAA00429; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 01:00:23 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id AAA00367; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 00:56:16 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 00:56:16 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Wes Peters Cc: Illiad , Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Marius Bendiksen , FreeBSD Chat , Greg Lehey Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Message-ID: <19990423005616.C266@marder-1> References: <012a01be8c8b$f20af620$dd0c35d1@aspectus.bconnected.net> <371F36D8.EB05BA62@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <371F36D8.EB05BA62@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 08:48:56AM -0600 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 08:48:56AM -0600, Wes Peters wrote: > > So who is she more likely to date, .....the leader of the "Freenix" world? ;^) What? RMS? ;-) > > -- > "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" > > Wes Peters Softweyr LLC > http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 18:17: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2810615A28 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:17:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA08587; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:44:30 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA91596; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:44:30 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:44:30 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Doug White Cc: Steve Price , Randall Hopper , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "dougwhite: fork failed - too many processes" Message-ID: <19990423104429.I91260@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Doug White on Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 10:01:47AM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 22 April 1999 at 10:01:47 -0700, Doug White wrote: > On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Steve Price wrote: > >> Doug is indeed an amusing guy. Welcome back Doug! :) Just wait >> until you catch one of his lunch-time sprees where 50+ messages >> in succession will be from him. It is truly a beautiful site to >> behold. ;) > > Yesterday I hadn't read for a while and had to mow through 700 messages .. > that took a while. You mean you don't get that many every day? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 18:35:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (mail2.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 467F414C1D for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 18:35:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-66-221.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.66.221]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA10098; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:32:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA73973; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:32:59 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199904230132.VAA73973@bellsouth.net> To: "David Schwartz" Cc: "Brett Glass" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Apr 1999 14:28:19 PDT." <000101be8d07$0ae09350$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:32:59 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For your database needs I'd strongly recommend these folks: http://www.faircom.com They actively support FreeBSD and are a mature company with a stable code base. I have a C-Tree application that's been in the field in continuous operation for twelve years. Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 19:25:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B13031521B; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:25:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA50959; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:22:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: jshafer@triton.net (John Shafer) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@hub.freebsd.org, postmaster@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spam blocking (was Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church") In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:00:35 GMT." <37257aa5.29474792@mail.triton.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:22:33 -0700 Message-ID: <50957.924834153@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > It seems that mindless.com did indeed fall prey to the spam blocks. I > do appreciate the spam-free nature of the lists, and realize it isn't > an exact science, but I was wondering what our usual policy for > dealing with spam was. Do we ban an entire site on the basis of one > spammer? Do we make attempts to contact the ISPs in question first? I generally contact the site in question and, unless they reply to me saying "we're taking care of it", the whole domain is blocked. If they bounce mail sent to abuse@domain or postmaster@domain I also block them since any ISP who doesn't care enough to have a workable way of contacting them to report problems also probably doesn't care about spam and certainly hasn't given me any way to reasonably contact them. > I did just send a note to postmaster asking if an exception to the > block on mindless.com could be made for my address. Otherwise it Sorry, it doesn't work that way since our anti-spam software blocks on a TLD basis, not per-user. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 19:26:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81EEA1521B for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:26:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA13337; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:23:49 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd013318; Thu Apr 22 19:23:46 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA10599; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 19:23:45 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904230223.TAA10599@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: application developers [ was Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan To: licia@o-o.org (Licia) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 02:23:45 +0000 (GMT) Cc: hamellr@dsinw.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Licia" at Apr 20, 99 03:48:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'd say the best thing anyone can do to help grow the app developer community > for freebsd, is -look- at their work, their ideas, etc and give them feedback. > Even if it's not a program you have any use for, commentary like "Oh, this > would look a lot better if it were moved over three spaces" -helps-... if > nothing else the moral support is a relief ;) I don't know if anyone has mentioned JX. JX is a "componentware" application developement tool that has a large number of components, including ACE, and a nice integrated developement environment. If you are looking to develope applications, and you are either willing to release your source or willing to share your profits (yes, Virginia, yet another license), it is a damn nice thing. The web site is at: http://www.its.caltech.edu/~jafl/jx/ http://www.its.caltech.edu/~jafl/jx/features.html Caveat: You should probably use the g++28 port instead of the default egcs; they both have a "thunks" bug, but egcs has another bug that keeps a number of the modules from working. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 20:34:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C192415995 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:34:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA51209 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:31:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Apr 1999 15:10:34 MDT." <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:31:33 -0700 Message-ID: <51207.924838293@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > This is misguided. It is that which does not reproduce which whithers > and dies because the resources are consumed by stronger competitors in > the ecosystem. Memes must replicate or be overwhelmed and die. This is a very limited viewpoint, to say the least, as it presumes that Linux is somehow "poaching" from FreeBSD's potential mindshare. Nothing could be further from the truth, as both the realities of this market and our growth patterns over the last 3 years indicate. First off, as I've said before, when any MIS manager makes an OS decision which is not FreeBSD (or *BSD), he's going to take one of the following options: 1. NT 2. Solaris/AIX/some other commercial Unix 3. Linux (we'll discount OS/2 and Novell as effective players right now). If he choses option #1, he's almost certainly lost to us since even if things utterly fails to work, he has a very big target (Microsoft) to pin the blame one and, to modify an old saying somewhat, "nobody ever got fired for buying Microsoft." It's also a decision which is usually difficult to back away from for various political reasons in the workplace. I'm not saying it never happens, I'm simply saying that it's been rare in my experience. If he chooses option #2, it's likely that he's accepted the gospel of Unix into his heart (which is good) but also chose the commercial alternative for reasons of applications base or support, neither of which we can compete with in any reasonable way (and it does no good saying that we *should* be able to, that's the situation we still have to live with *right now*). If he chooses option #3, that's the easiest "upsell" possible for us since he's clearly accepted both Unix and the open source idea into his heart and can deal with all the support and commercial application shortcomings of that platform. If we can get him to give FreeBSD a taste test, we stand a very good chance of "making a sale", at least a far better chance than with options 1 or 2, and every customer which Linux attracts away from options 1 and 2 is a customer which is that much closer (far closer) to us. Second, with regard to "poaching", this market is expanding rather explosively at the moment and even the most conservative estimates place FreeBSD's growth at between 30-40% a year. That's a damn fine growth rate and I find it hard to believe that Linux is "hurting" us more than it's helping us (see above) given numbers like these. I talk to a lot of customers in the field, probably more than most anyone on this list does, and it's a very rare experience where I hear a customer say that they switched from FreeBSD to Linux or chose Linux over FreeBSD based on an evaluation of technical merit. We're just not competing in the same market space nor COULD we realistically compete there since it has nothing to do with PR, it has to do with our respective feature sets or lack thereof. Linux is currently the darling of the desktop set and that has nothing to do with what I may or may not have said about FreeBSD and the desktop, it has to do with our weak audio, PCCARD and general multimedia support. These are all things which I've gone far out of my way to try and drum up enthusiasm for and we just don't have the resources to match Linux here. I'm sure Brett will say this all stems from my attitude towards the desktop, or something, but that's a supposition which complete ignores history and the fact that I've been issuing calls for volunteers for YEARS in these areas, sponsored an X Desktop Theme contest which failed due to utter lack of interest, and have been practically crying for someone to own the Audio and/or PCCARD development for FreeBSD, all long before I ever uttered word one about our strategy for the desktop vs the server. Our slogan used to be "turning PCs into workstations", for god's sake, and I did my very best to deliver on that slogan but the resources to back up the slogan just weren't there. I can't write an audio subsystem by myself, nor can I support all the laptops in existence, and so I evolved the attitude I have today out of sheer necessity. I learned the hard way that you can write all the impassioned diatribes you like about how winning the desktop is just a matter of attracting enough users through better PR which will all lead back full-circle to a good desktop presence and lots of multimedia bells and whistles, but impassioned diatribes do not make it so and they don't win you back the several year's worth of advantage your competitors have gained on the desktop in the meantime. Like it or not, FreeBSD has simply evolved in a different direction and even minor course corrections won't be brought about through "impassioned advocacy" on the chat list, they'll be brought about by the one component that's been missing from the VERY BEGINNING here: The technical features which make FreeBSD on the desktop an attractive proposition when stacked against its competition. Claiming that the FreeBSD community would just be unreceptive to your efforts is also mere sophistry and a fine justification for not doing any of the necessary work while still retaining your rock-thrower's permit and it's nothing more than that. Sadly, a lot of people still haven't learned from what should have been 6 years' worth of hard-won experience by now and still think that simply shaking your fist at the sea will result in tangible progress. It doesn't. If you want to see FreeBSD be more popular or be a better solution to your problem set of choice, don't even bother making weak excuses about how this Just Isn't Wanted or the Evil Jordan will certainly impede your efforts through his meglomaniacal tendencies because at the end of the day, that's all they are - weak excuses. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 20:39:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 491A4154C2 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA51228; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:36:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: chris@calldei.com, "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Apr 1999 16:34:40 MDT." <4.2.0.32.19990422162950.0459b4b0@localhost> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:36:37 -0700 Message-ID: <51226.924838597@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Quite a few, at least when I was doing advocacy. I was asked to stop by > Mr. Hubbard, who told me point blank -- at the LinuxWorld show, no > less -- that he did not want FreeBSD to have passionate advocacy. I've told you before, what you define as "passion" is about as akin to actual passion as love is to rape. I have nothing against passionate advocacy, only rabid, unthinking advocacy and what I told you at the LinuxWorld show was that I couldn't support that kind of LA riot mentality. If you took this as my being down on "passionate advocacy" then I can only strongly question your definition of that word. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 20:47:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FA9814E35 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:47:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:44:30 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Subject: RE: FreeBSD and memetics Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 20:44:29 -0700 Message-ID: <000201be8d3b$97a03b40$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <51207.924838293@zippy.cdrom.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > If he chooses option #3, that's the easiest "upsell" possible for us > since he's clearly accepted both Unix and the open source idea into > his heart and can deal with all the support and commercial application > shortcomings of that platform. If we can get him to give FreeBSD a > taste test, we stand a very good chance of "making a sale", at least a > far better chance than with options 1 or 2, and every customer which > Linux attracts away from options 1 and 2 is a customer which is that > much closer (far closer) to us. FreeBSD often has two irrational arguments used against it. One is the lack of a big company to provider support. The other is that it's not easy to use. Every Linux user is one more person who won't use either of those two arguments against FreeBSD. I've never had a Linux user tell me to use NT instead of FreeBSD. I've never had a Linux user tell me to use Solaris instead of FreeBSD. A Linux user can tell me to use Linux instead of FreeBSD, but he can't give a strong-sounding reason. Certainly not one that would convince a management-type. > I find it hard to believe that Linux is "hurting" us > more than it's helping us (see above) given numbers like these. Absolutely. And vice-versa. Both give credibility to UNIX and to open source. The two's combined market shread help to decimate the 'nobody wants an unsupported operating system' type of arguments. > It's a very rare experience where I hear > a customer say that they switched from FreeBSD to Linux or chose Linux > over FreeBSD based on an evaluation of technical merit. Actually, I have seen quite a few people switch from FreeBSD to Linux over FreeBSD's lack of a stable, efficient threads implementation. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 21:37:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r0.bfm.org [208.18.213.96]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7DD914C59 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:37:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id XAA00255 for chat@FreeBSD.org; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:35:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:34:46 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: The Matrix software Message-ID: <19990422233446.D219@whizkidtech.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just went to see The Matrix tonight because I saw the discussion here about it being done with FreeBSD. I am wondering what specific software was used. Was it something from the ports or was it a commercial product for FreeBSD??? Also, if whoever worked on the movie is on this list: Good job! Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 21:47:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4656414C59 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:47:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA85648; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:45:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The Matrix software In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:34:46 CDT." <19990422233446.D219@whizkidtech.net> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 21:45:07 -0700 Message-ID: <85646.924842707@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I am wondering what specific software was used. Was it something from the por ts > or was it a commercial product for FreeBSD??? It was Pixar's RenderMan software. See http://www.freebsd.org/~jkh/matrix.html for the original mail from the guy at Manex Entertainment. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 22: 2:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r41.bfm.org [208.18.213.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC8614C59 for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:02:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id XAA00263; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:59:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:58:59 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: David Schwartz Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Message-ID: <19990422235859.E219@whizkidtech.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> <000101be8d07$0ae09350$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <000101be8d07$0ae09350$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 02:28:19PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 02:28:19PM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > Actually, in my experience, commercial developers won't go anywhere near > the GPL, because it's way to restrictive. Even the BSD license is too > restrictive. Commercial developers need to be able to cut and paste code at > will, without having to put disclaimers and notices in their manuals. If you > want commercial developers to contribute to your code significantly, it > really has to be free and unrestricted. What I meant was different. I was talking about those commercial developers (like Corel) who decide to release their own original software with source code. GPL would sound attractive precisely because it is so restrictive. As in: "All right, we'll give you the source but you cannot use it to compete with us." (I mean no implications about Corel's intentions specifically.) Personally, I never even look at GPL source code. I feel safer that way. Although it may be because I spent the first 29 years of my life in a Communist country and see too many ideological parallels between that and GPL. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 22: 9:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dewey.mindlink.net (dewey.mindlink.net [204.174.16.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E32D14FFB for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:09:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from illiad@userfriendly.org) Received: from a2a00858.paralynx.bconnected.net ([209.53.12.221] helo=aspectus) by dewey.mindlink.net with smtp (Exim 2.11 #5) id 10aY9l-00020g-00; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:05:41 -0700 Message-ID: <002d01be8d47$5bcb5800$dd0c35d1@aspectus.bconnected.net> Reply-To: "Illiad" From: "Illiad" To: "Wes Peters" , "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: "Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai" , "Marius Bendiksen" , "FreeBSD Chat" , "Greg Lehey" Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1999 22:08:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> So who is she more likely to date, a famous talented cartoonist or >> the leader of the "Freenix" world? ;^) > >Time to settle this the old-fashioned way. A duel! :-) Delta Force multiplayer? :-) Illiad ==================================== Illiad * illiad@userfriendly.org User Friendly, the Comic Strip http://www.userfriendly.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 22 23:33:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 260FD1514B for ; Thu, 22 Apr 1999 23:33:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id CAA79922; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 02:30:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 02:30:44 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics In-Reply-To: <51207.924838293@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For the foreseeable future nothing in the desktop market but that pseudo-OS from Redmond will be anything but a very small fish in a very big ocean. It is not fair, it is not logical, it is not `right', but that is the way it is. People just need to get over it. IMO, where FreeBSD can best expend its finite resources is in the area where it already excels, servers. An area where it can be a bigger fish in a smaller pond. We had a 2.2.6 box acting as a terminal server with 64 analog modems connected to it. It ran from last June, when lightning hit a pole down the street and the power company took a loooong lunch, until two weeks ago when we took it down to replace those modems with digital. Another box runs our user database, does account renewals, renewal notification, billing, RADIUS authentication and accounting, and a few other incidentals. That box ran from last July, when someone accidentally turned it off, until two weeks ago when it was updated from 2.2.6 to stable. (Scrappy if you're on this list, kudos to your group also, it's postgresql. We guesstimate about 750,000 transactions a day and the postmaster daemon ran the entire time.) Nearly every one of the few times a box has gone down in the past two plus years that we have run FreeBSD it has been either a hardware problem or pilot error. Perhaps [net|open]BSD would give us the same reliability, but I have no intention of abandoning what I know works to find out. I doubt BSDi would since our news server runs for months on FreeBSD but never ran for more than a few weeks on BSDi. From what I've seen of linux I have no reason to think it would perform as well. I know NT doesn't come anywhere near close to matching those uptimes. If someone needs/wants a particular bell or whistle for their desktop there is nothing stopping them from writing it themselves or hiring someone who can. FreeBSD needs to keep its resources directed toward remaining the quality, reliable, industrial strength OS that it is and not worry about quantity. Offering the greatest quality in a niche market is the best way to survive against Bill's $$$ and Linus' groupies. Rational advocacy of a solid platform is what is needed to increase the growth rate of the userbase. Rabid fanaticism doesn't work and is easily overlooked and upstaged. Just ask the poor SOB that went to all that trouble to blow up the World Trade Towers and then got bumped back to page five by OJ. :) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 0:35:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r17.bfm.org [208.18.213.113]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B57715A14 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 00:35:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id CAA00232; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 02:32:30 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 02:31:48 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Message-ID: <19990423023148.A220@whizkidtech.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> <51207.924838293@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <51207.924838293@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 08:31:33PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 08:31:33PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Linux is currently the darling of the desktop set and that has nothing > to do with what I may or may not have said about FreeBSD and the > desktop, it has to do with our weak audio, PCCARD and general > multimedia support. These are all things which I've gone far out of > my way to try and drum up enthusiasm for and we just don't have the > resources to match Linux here. May I help? I cannot help with PCCARD. But what do we need in the field of audio? Multimedia is my love. Is it device drivers that we lack? Or is it applications? I would seriously like to help. I said "shyly" because I am still relatively new to Unix. I have never written a device driver for Unix, although I have written AVATAR.SYS for MS DOS in assembly language, as well as other DOS device drivers. So I am familiar with the concept of device drivers, just would need to learn about the Unix end of it. As a matter of fact, I just read the section on device drivers on freebsd.org earlier today (oops, it's past midnight again, make that yesterday). It all makes sense, but I need an introduction to Unix device drivers. The site mentions two books with ISBN - a quick check at amazon shows both out of print, although other books are available (alas they cost more than $50). I also said "shyly" because I never worked with audio, although I did work with video. So I would need some pointers as where to learn more about audio. Finally, I said "shyly" because my audio card was hit by lightning last summer and has not been of much use since. My income is limited, so I was unable to replace it. However, if someone is willing to donate a decent audio card, lend me a book on Unix device drivers, and suggest resources I can study to learn about whatever I need to know about audio cards (perhaps sample Linux drivers), I would love to work on it. By the way, the reason I asked about the software for Matrix (thanks for the quick reply) was because over the past 3 years or so, I have been developing (off and on) a library of routines for video special effects as a Windows DLL. About a week ago I started converting it to a FreeBSD library. It is still going to take some time, and I thought if such a library already existed, I would channel my energy elsewhere. But your reply assured me I should continue working on it. Anyway, I am willing to help, providing someone helps me get jumpstarted. Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 2:32: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from login-2.eunet.no (login-2.eunet.no [193.71.71.239]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39DFC1544D for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 02:31:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) Received: from login-1.eunet.no (mbendiks@login-1.eunet.no [193.71.71.238]) by login-2.eunet.no (8.9.3/8.9.0/GN) with ESMTP id LAA09880; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:29:24 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (mbendiks@localhost) by login-1.eunet.no (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA20805; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:29:24 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from mbendiks@eunet.no) X-Authentication-Warning: login-1.eunet.no: mbendiks owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:29:24 +0200 (CEST) From: Marius Bendiksen To: paul@originative.co.uk Cc: dpilgrim@uswest.net, marko@uk.radan.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: I dream of Chuck... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > There are restrictions on what you can do with the daemon, attacking other > OS's/Companies being one of them. > > The co-operation with the Penguin might be an useful image but you couldn't > do one attacking Bill. How about slicing down Lord Crud with a light sabre? - Marius - To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 5:29:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.on.home.com (ha1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com [24.2.9.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2705D150D0 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 05:29:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from interlog.com ([24.65.60.52]) by mail.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail v4.00.03 201-229-104) with ESMTP id <19990423122727.CSGD8119.mail.rdc1.on.home.com@interlog.com> for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 05:27:27 -0700 Message-ID: <37206606.68806C8E@interlog.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:22:30 -0400 From: Paul Griffith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.7 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Encanto Networks, web applicance uses *BSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/odonnell/odonnell.htm Can any tell me if this web applicance is using FreeBSD -- Paul Griffith paulg@interlog.com | Bulls make money. Bears make money. Assume nothing. Expect anything. | Pigs get slaughtered. Sheeps get | sheared and Rabbits get skinned. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 7:47:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 0F2FE14D46; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 07:47:19 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: jshafer@triton.net Cc: chat@freebsd.org, postmaster@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <37257aa5.29474792@mail.triton.net> (jshafer@triton.net) Subject: Re: Spam blocking (was Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church") Message-Id: <19990423144719.0F2FE14D46@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 07:47:19 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org when we get spammed from a site. our procedure is send email to several addresses at the site (postmaster, abuse, root, whois addresses). sometimes i even call them. if the response if not reasonable, then they get blocked. if they do not respond in a reasonable amount of time given the amount of spam that we are receiving, they get blocked. get off the block list is easy.....they need to contact me and say that "we are trying" ;) then we remove them from the block list and wait to see if the problem reappears. if the problem returns, back on the list. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 10:23:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465A015122; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:23:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25166; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:20:00 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:20:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Brett Glass Cc: advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.32.19990413175507.04df8100@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett, I know this is a bit late, but some of us do a fine job af "marketing" and PR at a grassroots level, most of my students are now starting to use FreeBSD and consider it a more than viable alternative to Linux, this was by saying "Hey I respect Linux, but take a look at this" I've burned mroe copies of my 3.1 CD's in the past 2 months than I ever have. Another thing is, YOUR PR is very effective at inflaming people, not gaining them to your side. Thats what it is effective in doing. Not in promoting FreeBSD (at least from my standpoint) JOrdan is just the type of spokeperson that got some major FreeBSD representation at one of the Open Source discussion forums lately, as well as getting Eric Raymond to agree to wear a FreeBSD polo shirt if sent to him. You are just the person who tends to piss people off. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ On Tue, 13 Apr 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > My kind of PR is EFFECTIVE PR. Your PR, which has burdened FreeBSD > for many years, has set the OS so far behind Linux in market share > and visibility that it may never catch up. > > --Brett Glass > > At 04:26 PM 4/13/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > >> With all due respect, PR is not one of Jordan's strong points. > > > >With all due respect, *your kind* of PR is not one of my strong points > >and I hope to god it never is. That would be like deciding to become > >a divorce lawyer. :-) > > > >- Jordan > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 10:33:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 409A01549E for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:32:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.50]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA2355; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:29:47 -0400 Message-ID: <37209393.8614097F@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:36:52 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics References: <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> <000101be8d07$0ae09350$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> <19990422235859.E219@whizkidtech.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > On Thu, Apr 22, 1999 at 02:28:19PM -0700, David Schwartz wrote: > > Actually, in my experience, commercial developers won't go anywhere near > > the GPL, because it's way to restrictive. Even the BSD license is too > > restrictive. Commercial developers need to be able to cut and paste code at > > will, without having to put disclaimers and notices in their manuals. If you > > want commercial developers to contribute to your code significantly, it > > really has to be free and unrestricted. > > What I meant was different. I was talking about those commercial developers > (like Corel) who decide to release their own original software with source > code. GPL would sound attractive precisely because it is so restrictive. As > in: "All right, we'll give you the source but you cannot use it to compete > with us." (I mean no implications about Corel's intentions specifically.) > The GPL has more profound implications, for authors it means "we will not make any more money from this, but neither will you". Netscape and it's GPL-like license is an example: they lost the war with M$ (or so was said by one of their developers), so they poisoned the market in revenge. > > Personally, I never even look at GPL source code. I feel safer that way. > Although it may be because I spent the first 29 years of my life in a Communist > country and see too many ideological parallels between that and GPL. > This is true, everytime I read something about "Linux and the new economic model", I just amaze myself with the amount of BS. The problem is that while we would all love new tecnologies free for everyone to benefit from them, our economic system (called Capitalism) is based on money. If someone wants to talk about a REAL economical model that works with the GPL he will have to eliminate money as a means of survival..and of course no one will even suggest this upon fear of public ridicule. The minimalist suggestion, that "we have to find a way to pay the people that work on the net" has no weight here: free software isn't payed for, that's what makes it free. If people receive it freely, well someone will not receive money, and someone will eventually be unemployed because you cannot compete from scratch with GPL'd software that has several years of development on it.. Good thing I am a Mechanical Engineer.... Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 10:33:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D32B915306 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:33:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.50]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA2360; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:29:54 -0400 Message-ID: <3720A787.F28644B8@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:02:01 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics References: <51207.924838293@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In another attempt to confuse you all: As some people already said, the free software "market" isn't ruled by the same laws the commercial software is. Unless someone shows me a URL in the FreeBSD handbook that says otherwise, the objective behind free software development is not to make profit, so I am not really worried about those comments about "who has a bigger market share". OS/2 was always better than Windows, and they lost: one more case where the fittest doesn't survive, so what? free software is different, FreeBSD will survive because it doesn't depend on revenue. It is also clear, when we speak about commercial vs. free software, that Darwin's theory of "the survival of the fittest" has long ago been revaluated: only species that cooperate will survive, and it's also very common, in this context, that the weakest survive. What would be your reaction if you find a restaurant cooks sick animals because "they were the weakest so they deserve to die first" ?... the predator always attacks the fittest victim. Linux is tied by the GPL: they are *forced* to cooperate. We can take a look at the sources of everything they develop and do it better. Since ideas are not copyrighted, the GPL is difficult to enforce in practice: I am not a lawyer but there is no real reason why one can't just "read" the Linux code and reimplement it commercially, it would probably be against the US constitution not to be able to express freely because other people had the same idea first. I might be the first one to voice this but, I don't have anything personal against Microsoft. *If* they had good products, *if* they added real value I would be a happy costumer. Of course, most of us have sufficient experience to know they don't. Even hotmail knows that NT can't compete with FreeBSD: the real competitor is Linux. Linux might work better as a workstation today, but we use the same windowing system, and their source code is available, so I don't see a real reason to say the workstation market will better served by Linux than by FreeBSD. The greatest limitation I see in FreeBSD, is the low capacity to respond that we currently have, let's admit it; our mail lists, developers, supporters, etc. simply don't have the capacity to handle all the users that Linux has today. We are growing very fast, but if we had, let say, 5 times more users, the amount of noise in the lists would make the system unmanageable. If someone thinks that we can handle 5 times more users, please explain why there are so many open PRs, and uncommitted ports. What I do see, is that if we wanted to play the traditional marketing game, if having more users is important for FreeBSD, we have to attack Linux! In fact competing against Linux directly would be good for Linux, because they may end up improving their quality, and will also harm Microsoft because having two choices will take them out of the scene (in theory). But once again, is it important to have more users? How can we handle them when we get them? More books might help, but I am basicly expeculating here...Also take into account that once we have more users, it will be increasingly difficult to do big changes on the OS, some people depend on FreeBSD's stability, and on maintaining the old features and general compatibility. Even now, this is already an issue It's just IMHO, but I think the speed of FreeBSD's growth is fine: if we try a faster rate we might drown. I also think Linux will have problems; what we have to work on is covering the deficiencies that they have, so that we are still an option when they sink. Pedro. Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > This is misguided. It is that which does not reproduce which whithers > > and dies because the resources are consumed by stronger competitors in > > the ecosystem. Memes must replicate or be overwhelmed and die. > > This is a very limited viewpoint, to say the least, as it presumes > that Linux is somehow "poaching" from FreeBSD's potential mindshare. > Nothing could be further from the truth, as both the realities of this > market and our growth patterns over the last 3 years indicate. > > First off, as I've said before, when any MIS manager makes an OS > decision which is not FreeBSD (or *BSD), he's going to take one of the > following options: > > 1. NT > 2. Solaris/AIX/some other commercial Unix > 3. Linux > > (we'll discount OS/2 and Novell as effective players right now). > > If he choses option #1, he's almost certainly lost to us since even if > things utterly fails to work, he has a very big target (Microsoft) to > pin the blame one and, to modify an old saying somewhat, "nobody ever > got fired for buying Microsoft." It's also a decision which is > usually difficult to back away from for various political reasons in > the workplace. I'm not saying it never happens, I'm simply saying > that it's been rare in my experience. > > If he chooses option #2, it's likely that he's accepted the gospel of > Unix into his heart (which is good) but also chose the commercial > alternative for reasons of applications base or support, neither of > which we can compete with in any reasonable way (and it does no good > saying that we *should* be able to, that's the situation we still have > to live with *right now*). > > If he chooses option #3, that's the easiest "upsell" possible for us > since he's clearly accepted both Unix and the open source idea into > his heart and can deal with all the support and commercial application > shortcomings of that platform. If we can get him to give FreeBSD a > taste test, we stand a very good chance of "making a sale", at least a > far better chance than with options 1 or 2, and every customer which > Linux attracts away from options 1 and 2 is a customer which is that > much closer (far closer) to us. > > Second, with regard to "poaching", this market is expanding rather > explosively at the moment and even the most conservative estimates > place FreeBSD's growth at between 30-40% a year. That's a damn fine > growth rate and I find it hard to believe that Linux is "hurting" us > more than it's helping us (see above) given numbers like these. I > talk to a lot of customers in the field, probably more than most > anyone on this list does, and it's a very rare experience where I hear > a customer say that they switched from FreeBSD to Linux or chose Linux > over FreeBSD based on an evaluation of technical merit. We're just > not competing in the same market space nor COULD we realistically > compete there since it has nothing to do with PR, it has to do with > our respective feature sets or lack thereof. > > Linux is currently the darling of the desktop set and that has nothing > to do with what I may or may not have said about FreeBSD and the > desktop, it has to do with our weak audio, PCCARD and general > multimedia support. These are all things which I've gone far out of > my way to try and drum up enthusiasm for and we just don't have the > resources to match Linux here. I'm sure Brett will say this all stems > from my attitude towards the desktop, or something, but that's a > supposition which complete ignores history and the fact that I've been > issuing calls for volunteers for YEARS in these areas, sponsored an X > Desktop Theme contest which failed due to utter lack of interest, and > have been practically crying for someone to own the Audio and/or > PCCARD development for FreeBSD, all long before I ever uttered word > one about our strategy for the desktop vs the server. > > Our slogan used to be "turning PCs into workstations", for god's sake, > and I did my very best to deliver on that slogan but the resources to > back up the slogan just weren't there. I can't write an audio > subsystem by myself, nor can I support all the laptops in existence, > and so I evolved the attitude I have today out of sheer necessity. I > learned the hard way that you can write all the impassioned diatribes > you like about how winning the desktop is just a matter of attracting > enough users through better PR which will all lead back full-circle to > a good desktop presence and lots of multimedia bells and whistles, but > impassioned diatribes do not make it so and they don't win you back > the several year's worth of advantage your competitors have gained on > the desktop in the meantime. > > Like it or not, FreeBSD has simply evolved in a different direction > and even minor course corrections won't be brought about through > "impassioned advocacy" on the chat list, they'll be brought about by > the one component that's been missing from the VERY BEGINNING here: > The technical features which make FreeBSD on the desktop an attractive > proposition when stacked against its competition. > > Claiming that the FreeBSD community would just be unreceptive to your > efforts is also mere sophistry and a fine justification for not doing > any of the necessary work while still retaining your rock-thrower's > permit and it's nothing more than that. Sadly, a lot of people still > haven't learned from what should have been 6 years' worth of hard-won > experience by now and still think that simply shaking your fist at the > sea will result in tangible progress. It doesn't. If you want to see > FreeBSD be more popular or be a better solution to your problem set of > choice, don't even bother making weak excuses about how this Just > Isn't Wanted or the Evil Jordan will certainly impede your efforts > through his meglomaniacal tendencies because at the end of the day, > that's all they are - weak excuses. > > - Jordan > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 10:34:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from resnet.uoregon.edu (resnet.uoregon.edu [128.223.144.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D368215094 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:34:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Received: from localhost (dwhite@localhost) by resnet.uoregon.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA01128; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:31:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:31:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug White To: Greg Lehey Cc: Steve Price , Randall Hopper , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: "dougwhite: fork failed - too many processes" In-Reply-To: <19990423104429.I91260@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > On Thursday, 22 April 1999 at 10:01:47 -0700, Doug White wrote: > > On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Steve Price wrote: > > > >> Doug is indeed an amusing guy. Welcome back Doug! :) Just wait > >> until you catch one of his lunch-time sprees where 50+ messages > >> in succession will be from him. It is truly a beautiful site to > >> behold. ;) > > > > Yesterday I hadn't read for a while and had to mow through 700 messages .. > > that took a while. > > You mean you don't get that many every day? Aggregate, probably, but I wasn't including current, cvs-all, multimedia, newbies, or my personal mail in that count. :) Doug White Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 10:36:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A555114D40 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:36:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA29448; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:34:05 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd029424; Fri Apr 23 10:34:01 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA23028; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:34:00 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904231734.KAA23028@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Ombudsman (sp? :) To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:34:00 +0000 (GMT) Cc: marko@uk.radan.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000f01be8c26$c04473b0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Apr 21, 99 11:42:47 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what are cooties? > > Originally, lice. But to little kids, it's a fictitious disease that you > have if you're not popular. Alternatively, a boy/girl gets it if he/she > touches a girl/boy. Specifically, trench lice; the term originated during World War I. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 10:45:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D46714FFE for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:45:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25282; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:37:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:37:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: David Greenman Cc: "Daniel O'Connor" , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, crh@outpost.co.nz Subject: Re: Jordan the Confused (Was: Jordan The Evil!) In-Reply-To: <199904160212.TAA20973@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org He sent me 10 CD's at Stevens Tech alone, and he would have sent more had I not told him I had the facilities to burn more, I agree that people do not know what goes on behind the scenes and that the criticism of onmgoing efforts has to stop, FreeBSD is at its highest point in user base and in advocacy than it has ever been as far as I can see, so who thinks things are going bad? Abu FreeBSD! Abu Hubbard! -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ On Thu, 15 Apr 1999, David Greenman wrote: > >> There's a lot that's good about engendering that type of advocacy. > >> UNIX itself owes its success largely to its introduction into > >> academia early on. > >> > >> Jordan, however, deplores that type of advocacy and says he will, > >> in fact, discourage it. > > > >Ahh, no, I doubt that, I don't think Jordan (yeesh, I'd be getting sick of > >having words put in my mouth by now if I where him 8-) is going to discourage > >the installation of FreeBSD in acadaemia.. > > Jordan (via WC CDROM) has given thousands of FreeBSD CDROMs to academia, > and many of us have worked hard to get FreeBSD into the coursework at > various universities. It's really offensive to read accusations of complacency > (or worse) about what we've done in this area. > I can't help but wonder if Brett (and others) have any idea what goes > on behind the scenes, especially when it comes to Jordan's FreeBSD promotion > efforts. Based on what I've been reading the last couple of days, it's clear > that there is a tremendous under-appreciation or total ignorance about it. > > -DG > > David Greenman > Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org > Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 10:52: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E986E1522C for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:52:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA01893; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:22:12 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd001767; Fri Apr 23 12:22:00 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA23998; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:48:56 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904231748.KAA23998@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Cross Posting... To: asmodai@wxs.nl (Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:48:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: wes@softweyr.com, mbendiks@eunet.no, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com, illiad@userfriendly.org In-Reply-To: from "Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai" at Apr 21, 99 09:10:37 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Wonder what TerryBSD is written in... Must be pure C I reckon? K&R C, with upper case "VOLATILE" and "VOID" #defined based on the compiler compliance level. ANSI C has two problems: 1) Prototypes, which catch errors that could be caught at link time or avoided entirely using appropriate sign extension techniques and/or descriptor based calling, and which were introduced for hiding "near" and "far" in pre-Windows95 source code, which ran in medium model. 2) The "volatile" keyword, which is applied to variables, when it is obvious that any external reference by a function called in a seperate thread of context (e.g. signal handlers) are "volatile", and that any direct hardware manipulation (a compiler should know the system for which it is compiling code) could be table discovered and/or use a "hardware" keyword (alternately, it could use "pointers are volatile" semantics). It has the advantage of being compilable with any C compiler, all the way back to Aztec C for the Kaypro 2 under CP/M. It's much easier to port when part of the porting process is not becoming the maintainer of all the GNU tools for the year and a half after you quit distributing binaries, required by the license. Plus I always hated writing code generators for all the hardware the GNU tools doesn't support. 8-). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 10:52:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BE2714FFE for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:52:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA23272; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:49:40 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd023250; Fri Apr 23 10:49:38 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA24019; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:49:37 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904231749.KAA24019@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Cross Posting... To: jobaldwi@vt.edu (John Baldwin) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:49:37 +0000 (GMT) Cc: junkmale@xtra.co.nz, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com In-Reply-To: from "John Baldwin" at Apr 21, 99 06:05:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So now the question is: What dangers are Jordan's cats informing him of? Continued participation in theis thread? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 10:54:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275D414FFE for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:54:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA24075; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:51:45 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd024052; Fri Apr 23 10:51:41 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA24119; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:51:40 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904231751.KAA24119@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Cross Posting... To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:51:40 +0000 (GMT) Cc: illiad@userfriendly.org, asmodai@wxs.nl, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, mbendiks@eunet.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com In-Reply-To: <371F36D8.EB05BA62@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Apr 22, 99 08:48:56 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ ...Jordan vs. Illiad in a no-holds-barred jello wrestling match for the hand of Carrie-Anne Moss... ] > So who is she more likely to date, a famous talented cartoonist or > the leader of the "Freenix" world? ;^) Linus is married. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 10:56: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D703814FFE; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:55:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25376; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:52:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:52:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Philip Kizer , advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-Reply-To: <634.924455605@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lets beat them senseless and make them print the press release... (thats what some would have us do) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 18 Apr 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Is there a press release yet for that one to which we can point people? > > A press release requires a willing press. :) So far, we haven't had > much luck there. > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 10:59:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4E7154E4 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:59:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05173; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 12:29:43 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd005066; Fri Apr 23 12:29:29 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id KAA24296; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 10:56:27 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904231756.KAA24296@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics To: adam@whizkidtech.net (G. Adam Stanislav) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:56:26 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990421102449.B224@whizkidtech.net> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at Apr 21, 99 10:24:49 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >Then you obviously agree with Jordan: They should either go for Windows > > >or for FreeBSD, depending on their needs. > > > > They should go for ANYTHING that serves their needs. The object, however, > > should be to make FreeBSD serve their needs in the majority of cases. > > In other words, it has nothing to do with PR and evangelization. What if people's needs were to be informed about FreeBSD at the point in time when they have not yet committed to a decision, such that they get an OS that already serves their needs, only they would have never known about it, had they not been informed? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 11:16:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A176154B3 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:15:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25489; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:11:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:11:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-Reply-To: <45271.924727733@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well I guess since you said it yourself " We need posters of Trinity with "Powered by FreeBSD" tatooed to her arse. ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 21 Apr 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > Let me just apologise to Illiad right now for what must be one bizarre > thread-from-hell at this point. I don't look like Keanu Reeves and > it's taking me one hell of a lot longer to learn Kung Fu than it took > him in the movie, so I don't think these comparisons hold much water. > > I will, however, (and for the record), be more than happy to go > out with Carrie Anne Moss (the actress who played "Trinity") if > she should call me. My number is in the book, Carrie! :-) > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 11:20:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A0F14DF1 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:20:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA09409; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:17:37 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd009234; Fri Apr 23 11:17:26 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25296; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:17:19 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904231817.LAA25296@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD To: stefan.bethke@hanse.de (Stefan Bethke) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:17:19 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <486835.3133775312@d225.promo.de> from "Stefan Bethke" at Apr 22, 99 01:08:32 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > The SETI@home project at Berkeley has released binaries for FreeBSD. The > > page address is > > > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/unix_cgi > > You can now also use the port (ports/astro/setiathome). Which brings up an interesting idea... How about at the end of the install, people are offered a list of "CPU cycle charities" to which they can donate by checking the box? Like the "Contribute $1 to the Presidential Campaign Fund" box on US Income Tax forms... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 11:31:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3222F154A6 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:31:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA17112; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:28:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd017076; Fri Apr 23 11:28:49 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id LAA25830; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:28:47 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904231828.LAA25830@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: When speaking about unix... To: dpilgrim@uswest.net (Darren Pilgrim) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:28:47 +0000 (GMT) Cc: andrew@python.shoal.net.au, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <371F1CE9.4E51CC77@uswest.net> from "Darren Pilgrim" at Apr 22, 99 05:58:17 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> How do you one pronouce various programs and parts of unix? I'm > >> always getting into little debates about the correct pronunication of > >> commands/programs. One example would be gnome--silent g or gee-nome? > > > > I thought it was guh-nome > > Ah, but can you say that in public without sounding silly? I think > not. Then again, most people dismiss unix folk as insane anyway so > maybe it doesn't matter. :-) Never hurt the sales of Gnip-Gnop(tm)... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 11:41:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D77215297 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:41:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA03933; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:38:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904231838.LAA03933@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: Paul Griffith Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Encanto Networks, web applicance uses *BSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 23 Apr 1999 08:22:30 EDT." <37206606.68806C8E@interlog.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:38:17 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I think Encanto was supposed to be using linux . -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 13:30:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF80115363 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:30:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22279; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:28:23 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd021780; Fri Apr 23 13:27:56 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA27882; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:27:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904232027.NAA27882@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: "dougwhite: fork failed - too many processes" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:27:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu, sprice@hiwaay.net, aa8vb@ipass.net, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990423104429.I91260@freebie.lemis.com> from "Greg Lehey" at Apr 23, 99 10:44:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> Doug is indeed an amusing guy. Welcome back Doug! :) Just wait > >> until you catch one of his lunch-time sprees where 50+ messages > >> in succession will be from him. It is truly a beautiful site to > >> behold. ;) > > > > Yesterday I hadn't read for a while and had to mow through 700 messages .. > > that took a while. > > You mean you don't get that many every day? I think he meant "an hour or so" when he said "a while"... Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 13:47:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8D31550C; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:47:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA00443; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:45:04 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd000409; Fri Apr 23 13:44:58 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA28855; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:44:57 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904232044.NAA28855@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Spam blocking (was Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church") To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:44:56 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jshafer@triton.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@hub.freebsd.org, postmaster@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <50957.924834153@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 22, 99 07:22:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I generally contact the site in question and, unless they reply to me > saying "we're taking care of it", the whole domain is blocked. If > they bounce mail sent to abuse@domain or postmaster@domain I also > block them since any ISP who doesn't care enough to have a workable > way of contacting them to report problems also probably doesn't care > about spam and certainly hasn't given me any way to reasonably contact > them. FWIW, RFC-1123 states: | 5.2.7 RCPT Command: RFC-821 Section 4.1.1 | | A host that supports a receiver-SMTP MUST support the reserved | mailbox "Postmaster". So any machine that fails, bounces, or autoresponds to "postmaster" messages is in violation (an autoresponder is a "maildrop", not a "mailbox"). The "abuse" mailbox, however, is not required. RFC-2142 (MAILBOX NAMES FOR COMMON SERVICES, ROLES AND FUNCTIONS) only specifies that it is a current de-feacto standard, and that for that area and usage, if a mailbox exists, that it must be named "abuse". Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 13:59:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73C4214E09 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:59:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr07.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA23078; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:56:38 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr07.primenet.com(206.165.6.207) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd022984; Fri Apr 23 13:56:25 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA29655; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:56:25 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904232056.NAA29655@usr07.primenet.com> Subject: Re: Encanto Networks, web applicance uses *BSD To: paulg@interlog.com (Paul Griffith) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:56:24 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37206606.68806C8E@interlog.com> from "Paul Griffith" at Apr 23, 99 08:22:30 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > http://www.infoworld.com/cgi-bin/displayNew.pl?/odonnell/odonnell.htm > > Can any tell me if this web applicance is using FreeBSD Yes. They were using VxWorks, for a rumored $40/unit royalty cost, and ported to both FreeBSD and Linux. The other rumor is that the reason they chose FreeBSD over Linux was as the result of some unspecified "bake off". I don't know very much about it, other than that. You may want to contact long time BSD'er Jeffrey Hsu (they guy who released the first PIC patches for GCC in support of my LKM [released] and BSD style [torpedoed by Novell's purchase of USL] shared libraries), since he was consulting for them a while back. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 14: 6:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59E0B14BF2 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:06:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id OAA07375; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:02:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:02:26 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Terry Lambert Cc: Stefan Bethke , jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990423140226.A7324@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <486835.3133775312@d225.promo.de> <199904231817.LAA25296@usr02.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199904231817.LAA25296@usr02.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 06:17:19PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 06:17:19PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > > The SETI@home project at Berkeley has released binaries for FreeBSD. The > > > page address is > > > > > > http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/unix_cgi > > > > You can now also use the port (ports/astro/setiathome). > > > Which brings up an interesting idea... > > How about at the end of the install, people are offered a list > of "CPU cycle charities" to which they can donate by checking > the box? > > Like the "Contribute $1 to the Presidential Campaign Fund" box > on US Income Tax forms... Good idea, Terry! Of course, we can all hear Jordan chanting his mantra, "Great, send me the diffs". I'll look at the install code and see if I can figure how to fit this in. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 14:47:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (mail2.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFDF414D13 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:47:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-70-151.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.70.151]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (8.8.8-spamdog/8.8.5) with ESMTP id RAA12476; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:45:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from wghicks (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id RAA02332; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:45:45 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) Message-Id: <199904232145.RAA02332@bellsouth.net> To: Pat Lynch Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 23 Apr 1999 13:20:00 EDT." Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:45:45 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > JOrdan is just the type of spokeperson that got some major FreeBSD > representation at one of the Open Source discussion forums lately, as well > as getting Eric Raymond to agree to wear a FreeBSD polo shirt if sent to ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > him. Now *that's* amazing. Good job! Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 14:54:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66EA514DF1 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:54:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26710; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:51:18 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:51:17 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: W Gerald Hicks Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-Reply-To: <199904232145.RAA02332@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yah, I think ER's exact words were "If one of those was to show up on my doorstep, I'd wear it" -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, W Gerald Hicks wrote: > > JOrdan is just the type of spokeperson that got some major FreeBSD > > representation at one of the Open Source discussion forums lately, as well > > as getting Eric Raymond to agree to wear a FreeBSD polo shirt if sent to > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > him. > > Now *that's* amazing. Good job! > > Cheers, > > Jerry Hicks > wghicks@bellsouth.net > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 16:20:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A08414DB3; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:20:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA33729; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:18:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: jshafer@triton.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, jmb@hub.freebsd.org, postmaster@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Spam blocking (was Re: Book - "Pulpit Confessions: Exposing The Black Church") In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:44:56 -0000." <199904232044.NAA28855@usr07.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:18:04 -0700 Message-ID: <33727.924909484@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The "abuse" mailbox, however, is not required. RFC-2142 (MAILBOX NAMES The requirements mandated by RFCs and the requirements mandated by common sense only occasionally intersect. This does not make any of them less necessary, however. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 16:23:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C02B814DB3 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:23:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA33767; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:20:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Pat Lynch Cc: W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:51:17 EDT." Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:20:41 -0700 Message-ID: <33765.924909641@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > yah, I think ER's exact words were "If one of those was to show up on my > doorstep, I'd wear it" -Pat [And it did]. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 16:44:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dusk.memoryleak.com (ci254235-a.nash1.tn.home.com [24.2.114.70]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C85CF14F7A for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 16:44:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from darxpryte@dusk.memoryleak.com) Received: from localhost (darxpryte@localhost) by dusk.memoryleak.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA56024 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:41:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from darxpryte@dusk.memoryleak.com) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:41:14 -0500 (CDT) From: "Kris Z." To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: small typo in header for freebsd-chat-digest Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've noticed that in the last several issues of chat-digest there's a small typo in the header: In htis issue: Someone might want to fix this. -Kristopher To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 17:37: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D8F14D5D for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:36:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id RAA19852; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id RAA22030; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:33:21 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn5.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA06021; Fri, 23 Apr 99 17:33:16 PDT Message-Id: <3721114C.F6F5FBCD@softweyr.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:33:16 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: illiad@userfriendly.org, asmodai@wxs.nl, jkh@zippy.cdrom.com, mbendiks@eunet.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: <199904231751.KAA24119@usr02.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > [ ...Jordan vs. Illiad in a no-holds-barred jello wrestling match > for the hand of Carrie-Anne Moss... ] > > > So who is she more likely to date, a famous talented cartoonist or > > the leader of the "Freenix" world? ;^) > > Linus is married. No, that would be the leader of the Freen*ux* world, silly boy. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 18:34:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A7714D7C for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:34:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA34240; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:30:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Terry Lambert Cc: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters), illiad@userfriendly.org, asmodai@wxs.nl, mbendiks@eunet.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 23 Apr 1999 17:51:40 -0000." <199904231751.KAA24119@usr02.primenet.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:30:54 -0700 Message-ID: <34238.924917454@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [ ...Jordan vs. Illiad in a no-holds-barred jello wrestling match > for the hand of Carrie-Anne Moss... ] Jello Wrestling? Outdated. How about a Jello Ultimate Fighting Championship match in the Octagon? :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 18:59:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5014F14D4B for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:59:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA34697; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:55:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Cc: Terry Lambert , Stefan Bethke , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 23 Apr 1999 14:02:26 PDT." <19990423140226.A7324@ontario.mooseriver.com> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 18:55:44 -0700 Message-ID: <34695.924918944@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Good idea, Terry! Of course, we can all hear Jordan chanting his mantra, > "Great, send me the diffs". I'll look at the install code and see if I can > figure how to fit this in. Actually, I really don't think this is CharityBSD and I am not particularly enthused at the idea of detracting from the main focus of the installer, which is to install systems and nothing more, by going in the whole donation / banner advert direction. I'm sure it would have some useful effects, I'll readily grant that, but it just rubs me the wrong way to have it here. My mantra in this case is "I don't care if you send me diffs, I don't want that feature in the installer. Put it on a web page." :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 19:49:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA48814D68 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:49:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 6550F3FBA; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 59E57997E; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:47:23 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:47:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Terry Lambert Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Cross Posting... In-Reply-To: <199904231751.NAA00166@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 23 Apr 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: :It has the advantage of being compilable with any C compiler, :all the way back to Aztec C for the Kaypro 2 under CP/M. You're a sick man, Terry. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 19:56:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from whizkidtech.net (r10.bfm.org [208.18.213.106]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3143B14D84 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 19:56:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from adam@whizkidtech.net) Received: (from adam@localhost) by whizkidtech.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id VAA00379; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:52:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from adam) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:52:08 -0500 From: "G. Adam Stanislav" To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Message-ID: <19990423215208.C326@whizkidtech.net> References: <4.2.0.32.19990422144951.00c60f00@localhost> <000101be8d07$0ae09350$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> <19990422235859.E219@whizkidtech.net> <37209393.8614097F@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <37209393.8614097F@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co>; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 10:36:52AM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 10:36:52AM -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > What I meant was different. I was talking about those commercial developers > > (like Corel) who decide to release their own original software with source > > code. GPL would sound attractive precisely because it is so restrictive. As > > in: "All right, we'll give you the source but you cannot use it to compete > > with us." (I mean no implications about Corel's intentions specifically.) > > > > The GPL has more profound implications, for authors it means "we will not make any > more money from this, but neither will you". Netscape and it's GPL-like license is > an example: they lost the war with M$ (or so was said by one of their developers), > so they poisoned the market in revenge. Yes, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. Netscape added an interesting twist: They said they would keep the code public until MS stops its unfair practices. In other words, they reserve the right to take it all back, including all the improvements that others may have contributed. > This is true, everytime I read something about "Linux and the new economic model", > I just amaze myself with the amount of BS. The problem is that while we would all > love new tecnologies free for everyone to benefit from them, our economic system > (called Capitalism) is based on money. If someone wants to talk about a REAL > economical model that works with the GPL he will have to eliminate money as a means > of survival..and of course no one will even suggest this upon fear of public > ridicule. I have read and reread the section on how programmers can make money under that economic model, and I still don't get it. I would never release anything under GPL, because it would be the same as giving something to the Party (Communist Party) when I lived in Czechoslovakia. Sort of reminds me of an old joke we used to say: In Poland, the Party called in a goral (mountaineer) and asked him: "Say, Goral, if the Party wanted your house would you give it to us?" "Without hesitation." "And if the Party wanted your fields, would you give them to us?" "Absolutely!" "And if the Party wanted your cow, would you give it to us?" "You bet!" "And if the Party wanted your goat, would you give it to us?" "Nope!" "Why not?" "Because I have one!" > Good thing I am a Mechanical Engineer.... Lucky you! Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 20:38:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 001101.zer0.org (001101.zer0.org [206.24.105.163]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F173114D2A for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:38:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter@001101.zer0.org) Received: (from gsutter@localhost) by 001101.zer0.org (8.9.2/8.9.2) id UAA24869; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gsutter) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:35:03 -0700 From: Gregory Sutter To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, Terry Lambert , Stefan Bethke , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990423203503.T31305@001101.zer0.org> References: <19990423140226.A7324@ontario.mooseriver.com> <34695.924918944@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <34695.924918944@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 06:55:44PM -0700 Organization: Zer0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 06:55:44PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Good idea, Terry! Of course, we can all hear Jordan chanting his mantra, > > "Great, send me the diffs". I'll look at the install code and see if I can > > figure how to fit this in. > > Actually, I really don't think this is CharityBSD and I am not > particularly enthused at the idea of detracting from the main focus of > the installer, which is to install systems and nothing more, by going Agreed. How about a metaport, though? Greg -- Gregory S. Sutter Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage. mailto:gsutter@pobox.com http://www.pobox.com/~gsutter/ PGP DSS public key 0x40AE3052 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 20:52:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E14814D82 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:52:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA09436; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:48:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 20:48:13 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: jgrosch@mooseriver.com, Terry Lambert , Stefan Bethke , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD Message-ID: <19990423204813.A9416@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com References: <19990423140226.A7324@ontario.mooseriver.com> <34695.924918944@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <34695.924918944@zippy.cdrom.com>; from Jordan K. Hubbard on Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 06:55:44PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 23, 1999 at 06:55:44PM -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Good idea, Terry! Of course, we can all hear Jordan chanting his mantra, > > "Great, send me the diffs". I'll look at the install code and see if I can > > figure how to fit this in. > > Actually, I really don't think this is CharityBSD and I am not > particularly enthused at the idea of detracting from the main focus of > the installer, which is to install systems and nothing more, by going > in the whole donation / banner advert direction. I'm sure it would > have some useful effects, I'll readily grant that, but it just rubs me > the wrong way to have it here. My mantra in this case is "I don't care > if you send me diffs, I don't want that feature in the installer. Put > it on a web page." :-) OK, sounds reasonable to me. Another web page it is. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 21:37:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ocis.ocis.net (ocis.ocis.net [209.52.173.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4822714DC1 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:37:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from fcash@bigfoot.com) Received: from laptop (dial-57.ocis.net [209.52.173.235]) by ocis.ocis.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id VAA22347 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:32:40 -0700 Message-Id: <199904240432.VAA22347@ocis.ocis.net> From: "Freddie Cash" To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:33:23 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Reply-To: fcash@bigfoot.com X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > What you've missed is that FreeBSD representatives > >in fact do *not* steer users towards Linux. Where do > >you get this idea, anyway? > > For two reasons. First, by saying that FreeBSD is positioned > as a server, they chase people who are interested in UNIX > on the client desktop to Linux. > > Second, they steer DEVELOPERS who are looking to target a > UNIX platform toward Linux. Here is a direct quote from Jordan > Hubbard: > > "I urge any ISV who's just thinking of getting into the Unix market for > the first time to consider Linux as a first porting target in order to > get the maximum bang for the buck." > > Of course, once they do, their next ports are to Solaris, then SCO, > etc.... They just don't ever do FreeBSD, because FreeBSD users run their > software under emulation. Isn't this one of the reasons there weren't many native programs for OS/2? It ran windows programs better than windows. So well, in fact, that few developers wrote for OS/2. Why write for a small market (native app) when they could write for the larger market, and get the smaller one through emulation. While this is great for the short term to grab a big chunk of available applications, is it viable for the long-term? Freddie fcash@bigfoot.com ------------------------------------------------ I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I am not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 23 21:51:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48EEE14DC1 for ; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 21:51:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-024.thuntek.net [207.66.52.24]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id WAA11189; Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:47:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <37214C74.35BFEA4B@thuntek.net> Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1999 22:45:40 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Pat Lynch , W Gerald Hicks , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Charles Henrich a Star? References: <33765.924909641@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > > yah, I think ER's exact words were "If one of those was to show up on my > > doorstep, I'd wear it" -Pat > > [And it did]. > > - Jordan > fact(clap!) -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 24 8:31:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCBE14E5F for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 08:31:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01299; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:31:18 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.32.19990424091324.0463c100@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.32 (Beta) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:30:43 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: FreeBSD and memetics Cc: chris@calldei.com, "G. Adam Stanislav" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <51226.924838597@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:36 PM 4/22/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >I've told you before, what you define as "passion" is about as akin to >actual passion as love is to rape. By your analogy, giving even a willing partner a big hug instead of a peck on the cheek would be rape. > I have nothing against passionate >advocacy, only rabid, unthinking advocacy and what I told you at the >LinuxWorld show was that I couldn't support that kind of LA riot >mentality. If you took this as my being down on "passionate advocacy" >then I can only strongly question your definition of that word. Again, Jordan, you apparently are so frightened by any form of passion that any strong display of emotion is, to you, the equivalent of the horrible LA riots. This is an indication that, while you may be a good programmer (I haven't reviewed your coding style, but I am told that this is the case), you obviously do not have the stomach to do effective marketing or advocacy. It's just not your thing, and that's fine.... So long as you realize it. It really might be wise to leave this to others who are able to handle a greater range of approaches and levels of enthusiasm. Doing so would even help you with YOUR frustrations. Currently, you complain that you are unable to find sufficient manpower to perform needed development tasks. With a larger, more passionate, more activist base of users, there will also be more people who are willing to contribute to the code base. By stifling passionate advocacy of FreeBSD, you are guaranteeing a shortage of developers. (More are now needed even to keep pace with Linux.) This is how memes die; they are ousted by others for which there is greater enthusiasm and support. --Brett P.S. -- For those who don't believe that passionate advocacy is effective, see http://www.zdnet.com/zdtv/cgi-bin/rmplay.cgi?/zdtv/channel/freshgear/fg_2242081_crew2.rm at minute 3:00. If nothing else, the brain is an educational toy. -- Tom Robbins To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 24 10:30:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A93F414C37 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:30:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk) Received: from [158.152.46.40] (helo=ragnet.demon.co.uk) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10b6Fy-0000d3-0C for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:30:23 +0000 Received: from dmlb by ragnet.demon.co.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10b5Oo-000CrB-00 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:35:26 +0100 Content-Length: 981 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:35:26 +0100 (BST) From: Duncan Barclay To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: BBC report on open source taking on M$. Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just hearing on BBC Radio 4's PM program (the flag ship hour long news) a fairly resonable report on how Microsoft is being taken on by the free software community: RMS - sound bite from a speech in the US explaining copyleft ESR - talking about how the hackers are taking their revenge Linus - (from the Web) on pronunciation of Linux Tim O'Rielly - making money from free software. Some M$ PR guy - worried about IPR issues Chris Nuttal was the reporter. It was not sensationalist but simply summed up the position of RMS, ESR, Tim and M$. This is probably available as RealAudio from the BBC's web site: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4 Duncan --- ________________________________________________________________________ Duncan Barclay | God smiles upon the little children, dmlb@ragnet.demon.co.uk | the alcoholics, and the permanently stoned. ________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 24 10:36: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC86D14FBF for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 10:36:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA08655; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:35:42 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <372200ED.D0CE9698@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 11:35:41 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Terry Lambert , illiad@userfriendly.org, asmodai@wxs.nl, mbendiks@eunet.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: <34238.924917454@zippy.cdrom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > [ ...Jordan vs. Illiad in a no-holds-barred jello wrestling match > > for the hand of Carrie-Anne Moss... ] > > Jello Wrestling? Outdated. How about a Jello Ultimate Fighting > Championship match in the Octagon? :-) Perhaps a one-on-one ECO Challenge? *That* should impress her. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 24 13:30:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw3adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FFAF14F1B for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 13:30:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-12-81.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.12.81]) by mail-gw3adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA21318; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:29:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA14255; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:30:15 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 15:30:14 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Wes Peters Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Terry Lambert , illiad@userfriendly.org, asmodai@wxs.nl, mbendiks@eunet.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: Cross Posting... Message-ID: <19990424153012.C11941@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <34238.924917454@zippy.cdrom.com> <372200ED.D0CE9698@softweyr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="IpbVkmxF4tDyP/Kb"; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature" User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <372200ED.D0CE9698@softweyr.com>; from Wes Peters on Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 11:35:41AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org --IpbVkmxF4tDyP/Kb Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Apr 24, 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > >=20 > > > [ ...Jordan vs. Illiad in a no-holds-barred jello wrestling match > > > for the hand of Carrie-Anne Moss... ] > >=20 > > Jello Wrestling? Outdated. How about a Jello Ultimate Fighting > > Championship match in the Octagon? :-) >=20 > Perhaps a one-on-one ECO Challenge? *That* should impress her. ;^) I think the Jello Ultimate Fighting Championship would be more fun. -Chris -- I'm rewriting my random signature generator because it's slow. --IpbVkmxF4tDyP/Kb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBNyIp07fyXY/Dmk2NAQGBgAL/T4C1kLtN/BfXl6Cj8mGzUjpR2iZhTskh h4NHV+BhpJQVNp31m2PD6+wN6iXAworcjT2n2IyQg03HYtDmLV5F+/pgOULRvoEm KwIyzwL5iyfNpcJ3/Ddht0o2ER6cksIY =uMOR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --IpbVkmxF4tDyP/Kb-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 24 14:43:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (baerenklau.de.freebsd.org [195.185.195.14]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAFA5152DB for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 14:43:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from w@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by baerenklau.de.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with UUCP id XAA27235; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:43:03 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from w@panke.de.freebsd.org) Received: (from w@localhost) by paula.panke.de.freebsd.org (8.9.3/8.8.8) id XAA00509; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:06:29 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from w) Message-ID: <19990424230629.33366@panke.de.freebsd.org> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 23:06:29 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider To: Donald Wilde , jack Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux comparison page gone References: <371DE6BF.CF40C94B@thuntek.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <371DE6BF.CF40C94B@thuntek.net>; from Donald Wilde on Wed, Apr 21, 1999 at 08:54:55AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1999-04-21 08:54:55 -0600, Donald Wilde wrote: > jack wrote: > > > > I just tried to send someone to > > > > http://advisor.gartner.com/n_inbox/hotcontent/hc_2121999_3.html > > > > seems that page is no longer there. Oddly enough, that day's > > other two, more favorable to linux, articles are still up. :( > > > Let that be a lesson to us all. When we see an article, we need to make > sure we snahg not just the link but also the atrticle itself including > graphics for posterity. We'll worry about minor copyright issues if it > becomes necessary, most will allow us to post if properly cited. I have backups of most FreeBSD press articles, in HTML and PDF. -- Wolfram Schneider http://wolfram.schneider.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 24 17:31:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E68D14DB0 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 17:31:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA19051; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:01:09 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id KAA12394; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:01:08 +0930 (CST) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 10:01:08 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Wolfram Schneider Cc: Donald Wilde , jack , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux comparison page gone Message-ID: <19990425100107.D9887@freebie.lemis.com> References: <371DE6BF.CF40C94B@thuntek.net> <19990424230629.33366@panke.de.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <19990424230629.33366@panke.de.freebsd.org>; from Wolfram Schneider on Sat, Apr 24, 1999 at 11:06:29PM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 24 April 1999 at 23:06:29 +0200, Wolfram Schneider wrote: > On 1999-04-21 08:54:55 -0600, Donald Wilde wrote: >> jack wrote: >>> >>> I just tried to send someone to >>> >>> http://advisor.gartner.com/n_inbox/hotcontent/hc_2121999_3.html >>> >>> seems that page is no longer there. Oddly enough, that day's >>> other two, more favorable to linux, articles are still up. :( >>> >> Let that be a lesson to us all. When we see an article, we need to make >> sure we snahg not just the link but also the atrticle itself including >> graphics for posterity. We'll worry about minor copyright issues if it >> becomes necessary, most will allow us to post if properly cited. > > I have backups of most FreeBSD press articles, > in HTML and PDF. Is somebody brave enough to ask Gartner if we can use it? Considering they're now charging money for it, I have faint hopes. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 24 18:55: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from obie.softweyr.com (unknown [204.68.178.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEBF814D53 for ; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 18:54:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from softweyr.com (homer.softweyr.com [204.68.178.39]) by obie.softweyr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA09493; Sat, 24 Apr 1999 19:54:26 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Message-ID: <372275D0.B0B9407A@softweyr.com> Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 19:54:24 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chris@calldei.com Cc: "Jordan K. Hubbard" , Terry Lambert , illiad@userfriendly.org, asmodai@wxs.nl, mbendiks@eunet.no, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, grog@lemis.com Subject: Re: Cross Posting... References: <34238.924917454@zippy.cdrom.com> <372200ED.D0CE9698@softweyr.com> <19990424153012.C11941@holly.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chris Costello wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 24, 1999, Wes Peters wrote: > > "Jordan K. Hubbard" wrote: > > > > > > > [ ...Jordan vs. Illiad in a no-holds-barred jello wrestling match > > > > for the hand of Carrie-Anne Moss... ] > > > > > > Jello Wrestling? Outdated. How about a Jello Ultimate Fighting > > > Championship match in the Octagon? :-) > > > > Perhaps a one-on-one ECO Challenge? *That* should impress her. ;^) > > I think the Jello Ultimate Fighting Championship would be more > fun. More fun than watching someone else walk, run, swim, and bicycle 1,000 miles? Well, I am a sadist of course. ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Apr 25 15:39:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 558) id 5E75014CC3; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:39:36 -0700 (PDT) To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Encanto Networks, web applicance uses *BSD Message-Id: <19990425223936.5E75014CC3@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:39:36 -0700 (PDT) From: hsu@FreeBSD.ORG (Jeffrey Hsu) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert writes >: >> Can any tell me if this web applicance is using FreeBSD > Yes. I can confirm that they are using FreeBSD. > They were using VxWorks, for a rumored $40/unit royalty cost, and > ported to both FreeBSD and Linux. > The other rumor is that the reason they chose FreeBSD over Linux > was as the result of some unspecified "bake off". Also both confirmed. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 27 5:45:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 637FA151C7; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 05:45:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-069.thuntek.net [207.66.52.69]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id GAA25464; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:45:20 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3725B11F.C2FE5052@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:44:15 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeffrey Hsu Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Encanto Networks, web applicance uses *BSD References: <19990425223936.5E75014CC3@hub.freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jeffrey - Can you add a bit more detail? I'd like to do as has been suggested, and generate a real press release about this while Encanto is still hot. -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 27 6: 2:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from srv1.thuntek.net (srv1.thuntek.net [206.206.98.18]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07B32156AD for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:02:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dwilde1@thuntek.net) Received: from thuntek.net (abq-069.thuntek.net [207.66.52.69]) by srv1.thuntek.net (8.9.1/8.6.12TNT1.0) with ESMTP id HAA28251; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:02:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: <3725B515.F6D81A59@thuntek.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 07:01:09 -0600 From: Donald Wilde X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-STABLE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Greg Lehey Cc: Wolfram Schneider , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Linux comparison page gone References: <371DE6BF.CF40C94B@thuntek.net> <19990424230629.33366@panke.de.freebsd.org> <19990425100107.D9887@freebie.lemis.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > > On Saturday, 24 April 1999 at 23:06:29 +0200, Wolfram Schneider wrote: > > I have backups of most FreeBSD press articles, > > in HTML and PDF. > > Is somebody brave enough to ask Gartner if we can use it? Considering > they're now charging money for it, I have faint hopes. > I will do so. That's then crux of it, if we can't get permission, we can't post it. -- Don Wilde "Bringing the Internet to everyone!" Wilde Media 1380 Rio Rancho Blvd. SE #117 voice: 505-771-0709 Rio Rancho, New Mexico 87124 e-mail: dwilde1@thuntek.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 27 13:25:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF4E515174 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:25:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA22513; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:25:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd022475; Tue Apr 27 13:25:13 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA05147; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:25:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904272025.NAA05147@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: SETI on FreeBSD To: jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:25:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, tlambert@primenet.com, stefan.bethke@hanse.de, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <34695.924918944@zippy.cdrom.com> from "Jordan K. Hubbard" at Apr 23, 99 06:55:44 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Good idea, Terry! Of course, we can all hear Jordan chanting his mantra, > > "Great, send me the diffs". I'll look at the install code and see if I can > > figure how to fit this in. > > Actually, I really don't think this is CharityBSD and I am not > particularly enthused at the idea of detracting from the main focus of > the installer, which is to install systems and nothing more, by going > in the whole donation / banner advert direction. I'm sure it would > have some useful effects, I'll readily grant that, but it just rubs me > the wrong way to have it here. My mantra in this case is "I don't care > if you send me diffs, I don't want that feature in the installer. Put > it on a web page." :-) The point would be to encourage FreeBSD user's to painlessly participate in "CPU volunteerism" type projects, and thus raise the visibility of FreeBSD. I'm not asking that it beg you to do it, default to doing it, or give an actual list, unless you select the "volunteer CPU cycles" menu options. I know that I personally get a slanted view of the world when I go to one of these projects' home page and see 90 Linux boxes and 4 FreeBSD boxes (or whatever; the point is FreeBSD isn't the largest number). Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 27 14:43: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B124415430 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:42:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA19619; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:42:58 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpd019601; Tue Apr 27 14:42:56 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA09956; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 14:42:55 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199904272142.OAA09956@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] To: wes@softweyr.com (Wes Peters) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:42:55 +0000 (GMT) Cc: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk, nicole@nmhtech.com, chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <3724D149.7DEDD047@softweyr.com> from "Wes Peters" at Apr 26, 99 02:49:13 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to -chat... > > Also, to make so bold a leap and in the face of most current scientific > > opinion on these matters is itself somewhat naive. By that I mean > > blaming *violent* games for unbalanced children. > > And this wonderful scientific opinion has produced the utopia we now > live in. Gee, that's a comforting thought. I went to grades 3 through 9 in rural Utah, as Wes well knows... The principal of the school had a paddle prominently displayed on the wall in his office. There were no shootings, even though firearms were common: most boys, and a not inconsiderable fraction of girls, of 15 years or older owned a shotgun and usually a .22 caliber rifle, at a minimum. There were no knifings, even though knives were very common, and frequently (pocket knives and hunting knives) brought to school. I put the problems today down to children being "protected" from the knowledge that there are consequences to their actions. It used to be that if your child misbehaved at school, the child would be sent to the principal's office and, if necessary, given negative reinforcement for the misbehaviour by the principal as a proxy for the absent parent. Thus even if the parent failed to teach the child that there were consequences to ones actions, the school protected society at large by making it clear that the parents were not representative of the arger society, and that the larger society was where the child would be living, at least part time, and theat they better learn the rules which members of the society are expected to follow. This was our social "safety net"; now if a parent spanks the child, the child can get the parent arrested, and schools are permitted the same leeway as a British Bobby -- namely, they can yell "Stop, or I shall yell 'stop' again!". My sister is a "hands off" parent; the most frequent question she voices in response to compaints by other parents about one of my nephews is "but what could I do?". She won't accept the answer "spank him when he exhibits socially unacceptable behaviour". My nephew wears gang paraphenalia, which makes sense, since he is one of the, to be politically correct, "peer group leaders" at his school. With no adult enforcement of acceptable behaviour, I can only hope he lives long enough to attend and then graduate high school and join the Marines, since no one else is permitted (by my sister) to teach him self discipline. I find it surprising that people who have to think in statements like "if A then B" have such a hard time internalizing the idea of action and reaction. In my experience, most people who exhibit socially acceptable behaviour do so for fear of the consequences, not because people are inherently nice creatures at some genetic level. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 27 16:26:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-12.mail.demon.net (finch-post-12.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.41]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FD08154A8 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-12.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10cHFD-000FBj-0C; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:26:27 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id AAA00378; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 00:26:06 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id XAA00879; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:56:19 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:56:19 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Terry Lambert Cc: Wes Peters , c.raven@ukonline.co.uk, nicole@nmhtech.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] Message-ID: <19990427235619.C778@marder-1> References: <3724D149.7DEDD047@softweyr.com> <199904272142.OAA09956@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <199904272142.OAA09956@usr04.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:42:55PM +0000 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:42:55PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > Moved to -chat... > > This was our social "safety net"; now if a parent spanks the > child, the child can get the parent arrested, The EU is trying to make smacking kids a criminal offence throughout Europe. Jeez, who elects these people to power? > and schools are > permitted the same leeway as a British Bobby -- namely, they can > yell "Stop, or I shall yell 'stop' again!". > Yes, and now kids have no respect for the Police so they (the Police) have to carry CS spray and, far too often, guns. > In my experience, most people who exhibit socially acceptable > behaviour do so for fear of the consequences, not because people > are inherently nice creatures at some genetic level. > It's called respect for your elders. > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org > --- > Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present > or previous employers. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 27 16:33:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88A4315036 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:33:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id QAA20455; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:33:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id QAA26265; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 16:33:13 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn5.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA26415; Tue, 27 Apr 99 16:33:05 PDT Message-Id: <3726492E.B18F0564@softweyr.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 17:33:02 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: c.raven@ukonline.co.uk, nicole@nmhtech.com, chat@freebsd.org, Johnnie Peters Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] References: <199904272142.OAA09956@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > I went to grades 3 through 9 in rural Utah, as Wes well knows... > > The principal of the school had a paddle prominently displayed on > the wall in his office. > > There were no shootings, even though firearms were common: most > boys, and a not inconsiderable fraction of girls, of 15 years or > older owned a shotgun and usually a .22 caliber rifle, at a minimum. > > There were no knifings, even though knives were very common, and > frequently (pocket knives and hunting knives) brought to school. > > I put the problems today down to children being "protected" from > the knowledge that there are consequences to their actions. And I put the current situation down to children knowing for a certainty there *are no* negative consequences to their actions anymore. They screw up, they are counseled. They screw up again, they are counseled again. This information is legally withheld from their parents and law enforcement until they finally go over the deep end and kill someone. The parents don't talk to the teachers, the teachers don't talk to the parents, the principal doesn't talk to the parents OR the teachers, and NOBODY talks to the kids. We have sacrificied our entire society on the altar of our childrens self-esteem. Perhaps it is true that the rotten little shits should not have any self-esteem, unless they can be raised to be someone worthy of esteem? And no, this didn't just start happening. I went to school all over the USA, as Terry knows, and found some astonishing differences. In 1970, when forced bussing began in the South, I was living in Columbus Georgia. The year before, I attended a 2-year-old school 0.5 miles from my home, along with other children from my neighborhood. This year, my brothers and sister and I, along with the kids on our side of the street, were bussed 24 miles to George Washington Carver School, an integrated K-12 prison in the center of the city. We attended from the start of school to the Christmas break, during which time we had 4 firebombings, three mass fights, including one which involved grades 4-12, several busses shot at, and one lovely gentleman who expressed his opinion of bussing the "white trash" into his neighborhood by throwing a cinder block through our school bus window. It was a terrible time, and most of you are lucky you didn't live through it. *All* of our children now are living through it. > It used to be that if your child misbehaved at school, the child > would be sent to the principal's office and, if necessary, given > negative reinforcement for the misbehaviour by the principal as > a proxy for the absent parent. > > Thus even if the parent failed to teach the child that there were > consequences to ones actions, the school protected society at large > by making it clear that the parents were not representative of the > arger society, and that the larger society was where the child would > be living, at least part time, and theat they better learn the rules > which members of the society are expected to follow. > > This was our social "safety net"; now if a parent spanks the > child, the child can get the parent arrested, and schools are > permitted the same leeway as a British Bobby -- namely, they can > yell "Stop, or I shall yell 'stop' again!". > My sister is a "hands off" parent; the most frequent question she > voices in response to compaints by other parents about one of my > nephews is "but what could I do?". She won't accept the answer > "spank him when he exhibits socially unacceptable behaviour". My > nephew wears gang paraphenalia, which makes sense, since he is one > of the, to be politically correct, "peer group leaders" at his school. > > With no adult enforcement of acceptable behaviour, I can only hope > he lives long enough to attend and then graduate high school and > join the Marines, since no one else is permitted (by my sister) to > teach him self discipline. > > [...] > > I find it surprising that people who have to think in statements > like "if A then B" have such a hard time internalizing the idea of > action and reaction. Truly amazing, isn't it. The most terrifying part is the generation now moving into parenthood who think all of this is somehow "right," who have no experience of what the world was like when people had the sense to be ashamed of their antisocial, counterproductive activities. > In my experience, most people who exhibit socially acceptable > behaviour do so for fear of the consequences, not because people > are inherently nice creatures at some genetic level. Because they are not. I was carefully taught right and wrong BY MY MOTHER as a small child, because she was with us 24 hours a day and could do it. Who teaches children right from wrong these days? The babysitter? The woman in the neighborhood who takes in 12 other children so she can keep hers at home? The people at the day care center, who are paid $5.00 and hour to wipe noses and asses, sometimes with the same Kimwipe? Or the nannies we saw on Dateline last night, who throw infants across the room? This is one point Jordan has been 100% correct on: until you're ready to be a parent 24x7x52x18 -- that's 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, for 18 years, you're not ready to be a parent. Part-time parents are another cause of the uncontrolled human animals that prey upon our children now. I saw a sound bite from the mother of one of those animals from Colorado yesterday; she didn't know her son was building pipe bombs in the garage because "I didn't want to pry." Here's a counter-quote from MY mother this morning, who managed to raise at least ONE homicidal maniac into a contributing member of society: "That's not prying, that's parenting!" (My brother Johnnie, whom I've cc'd on this, can attest to the homicidal maniac part; he's yanked me back from the abyss once or twice.) Although it is considered a cliche, I'll offer the standard parting shot: those of you who are not parents, do NOT understand the terror of having your children endangered. They are NOT like your siblings, parents, pets, or anyone else you have a relationship with. I have loved and cared for nieces, nephews, and girlfriend's kids over the years, and they come close, but are still NOT the same. If you want some idea of what it feels like to have your child threatened, think for a couple of years (3, in my case) of what it would be like to have someone threaten to shoot or cut off/out one of your arms, or one of your lungs. That comes close. Given the choice of trading my life for Bailey's, it wouldn't take a single heartbeat to answer. And God save whoever it is threatening her. -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 27 19:26:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bamboo.verinet.com (bamboo.verinet.com [204.144.246.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA1414D5C for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:26:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Received: from const. (allenc.verinet.com [199.45.180.181]) by bamboo.verinet.com (8.8.7/8.7.1) with ESMTP id UAA03117; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:27:18 -0600 Received: from verinet.com (IDENT:allenc@pragma. [192.168.1.2]) by const. (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id CAA34904; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:27:06 GMT (envelope-from allenc@verinet.com) Message-ID: <372671F4.6C5F447E@verinet.com> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:27:00 -0600 From: Allen Campbell X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.2.5 i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] References: <199904272142.OAA09956@usr04.primenet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry Lambert wrote: > > Moved to -chat... > > > > Also, to make so bold a leap and in the face of most current scientific > > > opinion on these matters is itself somewhat naive. By that I mean > > > blaming *violent* games for unbalanced children. > > > > And this wonderful scientific opinion has produced the utopia we now > > live in. Gee, that's a comforting thought. > > I went to grades 3 through 9 in rural Utah, as Wes well knows... > > The principal of the school had a paddle prominently displayed on > the wall in his office. > > There were no shootings, even though firearms were common: most > boys, and a not inconsiderable fraction of girls, of 15 years or > older owned a shotgun and usually a .22 caliber rifle, at a minimum. > > There were no knifings, even though knives were very common, and > frequently (pocket knives and hunting knives) brought to school. Shootings, knifings and bombings. Our politicians appear to believe these are things to be reduced with more unenforced laws. Our popular culture considers these entertainment in one context and anonymous tragedy in another. To actually fire a weapon at another human being is a truly transcendental act of violence. As those who bear indirect witness to such acts, we unconsciously dilute this fact to cope with the shear magnitude of it. The human body is rather fragile relative to the physics of firearms. Despite this, killing an otherwise healthy human is not easy. One must have extreme focus and absolute intent, a fact that is universally discounted by parole boards. To kill 13 is beyond my ability to comprehend. To walk through one's high school and slowly and methodically murder classmates as the final act before suicide represents the absolute height of depravity. These acts can only be accomplished after totally divorcing one's self from all constraints, social, moral or otherwise. From this perspective, the arguments offered by the politicians and media pundits can have no relevance. No amount of investment in mental health programs could possibly serve to address this. Someone in this state could only see such efforts as contemptible, worthy of destruction. No amount of censorship of violent content will mediate this. For someone this far gone, pursing violence is a symptom, not a cause. No amount of unenforced gun legislation will prevent these acts. The means will always exist to inflict horror, whether that means constructing bombs or quietly knifing people on the roadside over a period of years. > I put the problems today down to children being "protected" from > the knowledge that there are consequences to their actions. > > It used to be that if your child misbehaved at school, the child > would be sent to the principal's office and, if necessary, given > negative reinforcement for the misbehaviour by the principal as > a proxy for the absent parent. > > Thus even if the parent failed to teach the child that there were > consequences to ones actions, the school protected society at large > by making it clear that the parents were not representative of the > arger society, and that the larger society was where the child would > be living, at least part time, and theat they better learn the rules > which members of the society are expected to follow. > > This was our social "safety net"; now if a parent spanks the > child, the child can get the parent arrested, and schools are > permitted the same leeway as a British Bobby -- namely, they can > yell "Stop, or I shall yell 'stop' again!". Could it really be this simple? I have to point out that discipline applied by a lout only breeds resentment. Authority must be worthy of respect before punishment of any sort, martial or otherwise, can result in positive behavioral change. I submit that the typical divorcee boomer parent has no one fooled, most especially the kids. Living at work to earn a Beamer while Nintendo baby sits the live-in 'Goth' does not, at some reserved point in time, give way to wholesome and respectful relations. > My sister is a "hands off" parent; the most frequent question she > voices in response to compaints by other parents about one of my > nephews is "but what could I do?". She won't accept the answer > "spank him when he exhibits socially unacceptable behaviour". My > nephew wears gang paraphenalia, which makes sense, since he is one > of the, to be politically correct, "peer group leaders" at his school. > > With no adult enforcement of acceptable behaviour, I can only hope > he lives long enough to attend and then graduate high school and > join the Marines, since no one else is permitted (by my sister) to > teach him self discipline. > > I find it surprising that people who have to think in statements > like "if A then B" have such a hard time internalizing the idea of > action and reaction. > > In my experience, most people who exhibit socially acceptable > behaviour do so for fear of the consequences, not because people > are inherently nice creatures at some genetic level. I think this notion needs to be applied to the parents of the 'Trench Coat Mafia' generation. If these boomers can't be expected to nurture and discipline their spawn such that they mature into something worthwhile, then perhaps we must codify criminal liability into parenthood. Fear of the consequences of their children's actions might mitigate some of this if not lead to some measure of improvement, assuming the consequences were actually enforced. Unfortunately, the current state of parenting suggests this as one imperative which, before our time, has not existed. Thanks for moving this thread to -chat from wherever it came. I really needed to experience some thoughtful and rational opinions on this. I live about 60 miles North of Columbine in Fort Collins, Colorado. Naturally, a great deal of informal discussion is taking place amongst my neighbors and co-workers. I've been forced to avoid most of it; the level of ignorance and self-deception is not tolerable. -- Allen Campbell | Anti-social behavior is a symptom of allenc@verinet.com | rampant social depravity To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 27 19:31:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 464D114FD5; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:31:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13004; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:30:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904280230.TAA13004@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: hsu@FreeBSD.ORG (Jeffrey Hsu) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Encanto Networks, web applicance uses *BSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:39:36 PDT." <19990425223936.5E75014CC3@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:30:49 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > They were using VxWorks, for a rumored $40/unit royalty cost, and > > ported to both FreeBSD and Linux. > > > The other rumor is that the reason they chose FreeBSD over Linux > > was as the result of some unspecified "bake off". Whats a "bake off" ? -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 27 19:46:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F239F15604; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:46:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:46:29 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Amancio Hasty" , "Jeffrey Hsu" Cc: Subject: RE: Encanto Networks, web applicance uses *BSD Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:46:29 -0700 Message-ID: <000101be9121$514865c0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199904280230.TAA13004@rah.star-gate.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See RFC1025. DS > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Amancio Hasty > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 1999 7:31 PM > To: Jeffrey Hsu > Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Re: Encanto Networks, web applicance uses *BSD > > > > > > > > They were using VxWorks, for a rumored $40/unit royalty cost, and > > > ported to both FreeBSD and Linux. > > > > > The other rumor is that the reason they chose FreeBSD over Linux > > > was as the result of some unspecified "bake off". > > Whats a "bake off" ? > > -- > > Amancio Hasty > hasty@star-gate.com > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 27 19:50:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F85214E83; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:50:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA07767; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:19:37 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199904280230.TAA13004@rah.star-gate.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 12:19:37 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Amancio Hasty Subject: Re: Encanto Networks, web applicance uses *BSD Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, (Jeffrey Hsu) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 28-Apr-99 Amancio Hasty wrote: > > > The other rumor is that the reason they chose FreeBSD over Linux > > > was as the result of some unspecified "bake off". > Whats a "bake off" ? Like when you have a contest to see who's the best cook.. They have a "bake off" Basically it means they tested Linux and FreeBSD under the conditions they'd use it and decide which one is better. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 27 19:55: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F189E14CA4; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:55:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA13149; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:54:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199904280254.TAA13149@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: hsu@FreeBSD.ORG (Jeffrey Hsu) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Encanto Networks, web applicance uses *BSD In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:39:36 PDT." <19990425223936.5E75014CC3@hub.freebsd.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:54:24 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org curious are you working for Encanto? Cheers -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Apr 27 21:58:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B0F3014CF9 for ; Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:58:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 20602 invoked by alias); 28 Apr 1999 04:58:47 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@freebsd.org@fixme Received: (qmail 20551 invoked by uid 0); 28 Apr 1999 04:58:46 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 28 Apr 1999 04:58:46 -0000 Message-ID: <37269587.CE4AC100@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:58:47 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Ovens Cc: Terry Lambert , Wes Peters , c.raven@ukonline.co.uk, nicole@nmhtech.com, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] References: <3724D149.7DEDD047@softweyr.com> <199904272142.OAA09956@usr04.primenet.com> <19990427235619.C778@marder-1> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens wrote: > On Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 09:42:55PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> In my experience, most people who exhibit socially acceptable >> behaviour do so for fear of the consequences, not because people >> are inherently nice creatures at some genetic level. > > It's called respect for your elders. Well I think most people do contain niceness. It's in there, somewhere, misfiled under the heading, "Point B." ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 28 2:21:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lcremeans.erols.com (lcremeans.erols.com [216.164.87.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0A1715698 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 02:21:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lee@lcremeans.erols.com) Received: (from lee@localhost) by lcremeans.erols.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id FAA32515; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 05:20:55 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from lee) Message-ID: <19990428052055.B31332@erols.com> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 05:20:55 -0400 From: Lee Cremeans To: Allen Campbell Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] References: <199904272142.OAA09956@usr04.primenet.com> <372671F4.6C5F447E@verinet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <372671F4.6C5F447E@verinet.com>; from Allen Campbell on Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 08:27:00PM -0600 X-OS: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE Organization: My room? Are you crazy? :) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 08:27:00PM -0600, Allen Campbell wrote: [Just so people know, I'm only 21, have no children, but have lived with younger brothers for years. That said, there are just some feelings I wanna get out about this.] > Terry Lambert wrote: > > I put the problems today down to children being "protected" from > > the knowledge that there are consequences to their actions. > > > > It used to be that if your child misbehaved at school, the child > > would be sent to the principal's office and, if necessary, given > > negative reinforcement for the misbehaviour by the principal as > > a proxy for the absent parent. > > > > Thus even if the parent failed to teach the child that there were > > consequences to ones actions, the school protected society at large > > by making it clear that the parents were not representative of the > > arger society, and that the larger society was where the child would > > be living, at least part time, and theat they better learn the rules > > which members of the society are expected to follow. > > > > This was our social "safety net"; now if a parent spanks the > > child, the child can get the parent arrested, and schools are > > permitted the same leeway as a British Bobby -- namely, they can > > yell "Stop, or I shall yell 'stop' again!". > > Could it really be this simple? I have to point out that discipline > applied by a lout only breeds resentment. Authority must be worthy of > respect before punishment of any sort, martial or otherwise, can result > in positive behavioral change. I submit that the typical divorcee > boomer parent has no one fooled, most especially the kids. Living at > work to earn a Beamer while Nintendo baby sits the live-in 'Goth' does > not, at some reserved point in time, give way to wholesome and > respectful relations. I feel the same way about this...what people seem to imagine when they hear "spanking" means having the living hell beaten out of little Johnnie or Katie with "the buckle in the belt" by an incoherently angry (preferably piss-drunk) dad. Personally, if and when I have kids, I would not "spank" them...maybe a slap on the wrist if necessary, but nothing really severe. For the other point -- absent parents -- it seems like there's a whole common thread in society, not just parenting, that needs to be addressed. The US, as a general whole, is unbelievably shallow. The key word is "convenience" -- people are used to doing things the quick and easy way, rather than taking the time and "slaving" over it. Look at the proliferation of things that are "quick and easy": we have convenience foods and fast food, convenience stores, FedEx, the Internet itself...and the list goes on and on. It also comes with a strong dollop of "you have to conform to this or else" -- non-believers get beaten up, picked on, ridiculed, even killed. One of these things is the way we react when a tragedy like this occurs. When something happens that 1) is horrible 2) we couldn't control 3) involves actual people with weapons instead of a machine that failed, people tend to deny that something is wrong (it'd upset their convenient culture) and look for the "quick and easy" way out -- and in our culture, the convenient way is to find a scapegoat and either sue it or legislate it out of existence. In the end, that ends up benefiting the lawyers or the Congresspeople and police more than it does anyone else. Kids that fit the "description", defend the shooters in any way, or anything else considered "dangerous" are harassed for no good reason other than to satisfy the need for this placement of blame, and to "kill the wabbit!" as it were. Also, consider the fact that, in a lot of school environments, if you're not beautiful, mindless, and staunchly loyal to school spirit, you become a non-believer, an outcast. I remember hating the show "saved by the bell" and just about every other high-school comedy because it put forth this image that the Beautiful People always get whatever they want, and the "geeks", "nerds", and "weirdoes" get laughed at and slammed into lockers. Part of this was because my school experience wasn't like that; I was hardly one of the jocks (I never did like sports), but I had people who respected me, at least, that were jocks and SCA people and such. Of course, it's not the same for everyone. And the hell of it is, when the Beautiful People kick some "non-believer's" ass, a lot of times the school authorities look the other way, write the person off as a "troublemaker" and never tell the parents until it's far too late. > > My sister is a "hands off" parent; the most frequent question she > > voices in response to compaints by other parents about one of my > > nephews is "but what could I do?". She won't accept the answer > > "spank him when he exhibits socially unacceptable behaviour". My > > nephew wears gang paraphenalia, which makes sense, since he is one > > of the, to be politically correct, "peer group leaders" at his school. > > > > With no adult enforcement of acceptable behaviour, I can only hope > > he lives long enough to attend and then graduate high school and > > join the Marines, since no one else is permitted (by my sister) to > > teach him self discipline. > > > > I find it surprising that people who have to think in statements > > like "if A then B" have such a hard time internalizing the idea of > > action and reaction. > > > > In my experience, most people who exhibit socially acceptable > > behaviour do so for fear of the consequences, not because people > > are inherently nice creatures at some genetic level. > > I think this notion needs to be applied to the parents of the 'Trench > Coat Mafia' generation. If these boomers can't be expected to nurture > and discipline their spawn such that they mature into something > worthwhile, then perhaps we must codify criminal liability into > parenthood. Fear of the consequences of their children's actions might > mitigate some of this if not lead to some measure of improvement, > assuming the consequences were actually enforced. Unfortunately, the > current state of parenting suggests this as one imperative which, before > our time, has not existed. I've heard people suggest that people actually get licenses to have children...a bit extreme, I'd say (you can't control sex and reproduction THAT easily), but I'd definitely say a good parenting class is a MUST for anyone expecting a child. Maybe with refresher courses for each subsequent. I don't know about criminal responsibility, though...there are already negligence laws on the books, but they only seem to come into play when you more or less abandon a child. > Thanks for moving this thread to -chat from wherever it came. I really > needed to experience some thoughtful and rational opinions on this. I > live about 60 miles North of Columbine in Fort Collins, Colorado. > Naturally, a great deal of informal discussion is taking place amongst > my neighbors and co-workers. I've been forced to avoid most of it; the > level of ignorance and self-deception is not tolerable. *sigh* indeed...I've not heard much about it from others except on IRC (not #freebsd, but #watertower on WTnet, which is where pretty much all of my longterm IRC buddies are), but every time I turn on the radio, it's "Congress is searching for answers to the Littleton tragedy"...more denial. They want the "quick and easy" way out, a "anti-sorrow" pill that'll make it all go away. I've got news for Congress...Homie don't play that. The best "answer" lies with the parents. Parents need to *parent* their children, talk to them, find out what's going on in their minds. The parents of the Littleton shooters had no CLUE what was happening, and the kids had been planning this for a whole year. :/ No amount of pointing fingers, suing people, or enacting new laws will make this go away...there will always be bad apples, and as I said before, more lawsuits and laws help no one but the lawyers and the police. Of course, this is highly "inconvenient", so people'd rather keep pointing fingers and fighting over it. As for the bigger picture, our society as a whole is a big problem. As I said before, it's the whole thing with laziness, conformity and greed. We've become a nation of whiny, self-important, bleating sheep, to put it bluntly. No one wants to *do* anything because it's "too hard" or "doesn't fit into my busy schedule" or "costs way too much, I'd rather do sheepy stuff with the money instead. now where's that 42-inch big-screen home theater at?". We've dropped from world's best in math and science to rock-bottom in the past 30 years. Voter turnout for polls is at an all-time low. We only have two major political parties, when some countries have 5 or even more, and when someone opens their mouth about a political issue, the chances are very high it'll be culled directly from the Republican or Democratic agenda sight unseen. We can't think for ourselves, we let the people that run the media do it, and then it comes down to money instead of the best interests of the people. We also can't take any responsibility for our actions -- the way the President handled the whole Lewinsky debacle is a glaring example of this, not to mention the OJ trial 4 years ago. What we need is more free thought. Don't be afraid to stand up to your boss (or yourself!) and stay home with your kids when you need to. Read up on things before you buy them. Go to vote, and if you don't like the candidates and you're allowed to do it, write one in. Get away from the TV and the computer and read a good book once in a while. When you watch TV, find something that makes you think about things rationally, instead of jumping to conclusions and looking for a neck to choke. And don't forget to look at yourself. Everything has a consequence or side-effect; if you do something with huge consequences, for God's sake, THINK ABOUT IT beforehand. And if you do something bad, it's not anyone's fault but your own; to say otherwise is to be a sheep. -lee -- +--------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | | lcremeans@erols.com | http://wakky.dyndns.org/~lee | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 28 8:49:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (law-f111.hotmail.com [209.185.131.174]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D83F15737 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:49:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsdlists@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 47773 invoked by uid 0); 28 Apr 1999 15:49:25 -0000 Message-ID: <19990428154925.47772.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.30.10.14 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:49:22 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.30.10.14] From: "Rob Robins" To: lcremeans@erols.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 08:49:22 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeah......make 2 copies of these and put my name at the top of one. Neill > >On Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 08:27:00PM -0600, Allen Campbell wrote: > >[Just so people know, I'm only 21, have no children, but have lived with >younger brothers for years. That said, there are just some feelings I wanna >get out about this.] > >> Terry Lambert wrote: >> > I put the problems today down to children being "protected" from >> > the knowledge that there are consequences to their actions. >> > >> > It used to be that if your child misbehaved at school, the child >> > would be sent to the principal's office and, if necessary, given >> > negative reinforcement for the misbehaviour by the principal as >> > a proxy for the absent parent. >> > >> > Thus even if the parent failed to teach the child that there were >> > consequences to ones actions, the school protected society at large >> > by making it clear that the parents were not representative of the >> > arger society, and that the larger society was where the child would >> > be living, at least part time, and theat they better learn the rules >> > which members of the society are expected to follow. >> > >> > This was our social "safety net"; now if a parent spanks the >> > child, the child can get the parent arrested, and schools are >> > permitted the same leeway as a British Bobby -- namely, they can >> > yell "Stop, or I shall yell 'stop' again!". >> >> Could it really be this simple? I have to point out that discipline >> applied by a lout only breeds resentment. Authority must be worthy of >> respect before punishment of any sort, martial or otherwise, can result >> in positive behavioral change. I submit that the typical divorcee >> boomer parent has no one fooled, most especially the kids. Living at >> work to earn a Beamer while Nintendo baby sits the live-in 'Goth' does >> not, at some reserved point in time, give way to wholesome and >> respectful relations. > >I feel the same way about this...what people seem to imagine when they hear >"spanking" means having the living hell beaten out of little Johnnie or >Katie with "the buckle in the belt" by an incoherently angry (preferably >piss-drunk) dad. Personally, if and when I have kids, I would not "spank" >them...maybe a slap on the wrist if necessary, but nothing really severe. >For the other point -- absent parents -- it seems like there's a whole >common thread in society, not just parenting, that needs to be addressed. > >The US, as a general whole, is unbelievably shallow. The key word is >"convenience" -- people are used to doing things the quick and easy way, >rather than taking the time and "slaving" over it. Look at the proliferation >of things that are "quick and easy": we have convenience foods and fast >food, convenience stores, FedEx, the Internet itself...and the list goes on >and on. It also comes with a strong dollop of "you have to conform to this >or else" -- non-believers get beaten up, picked on, ridiculed, even killed. > >One of these things is the way we react when a tragedy like this occurs. >When something happens that 1) is horrible 2) we couldn't control 3) >involves actual people with weapons instead of a machine that failed, people >tend to deny that something is wrong (it'd upset their convenient culture) >and look for the "quick and easy" way out -- and in our culture, the >convenient way is to find a scapegoat and either sue it or legislate it out >of existence. In the end, that ends up benefiting the lawyers or the >Congresspeople and police more than it does anyone else. Kids that fit the >"description", defend the shooters in any way, or anything else considered >"dangerous" are harassed for no good reason other than to satisfy the need >for this placement of blame, and to "kill the wabbit!" as it were. > >Also, consider the fact that, in a lot of school environments, if you're not >beautiful, mindless, and staunchly loyal to school spirit, you become a >non-believer, an outcast. I remember hating the show "saved by the bell" and >just about every other high-school comedy because it put forth this image >that the Beautiful People always get whatever they want, and the "geeks", >"nerds", and "weirdoes" get laughed at and slammed into lockers. Part of >this was because my school experience wasn't like that; I was hardly one of >the jocks (I never did like sports), but I had people who respected me, at >least, that were jocks and SCA people and such. Of course, it's not the same >for everyone. And the hell of it is, when the Beautiful People kick some >"non-believer's" ass, a lot of times the school authorities look the other >way, write the person off as a "troublemaker" and never tell the parents >until it's far too late. > >> > My sister is a "hands off" parent; the most frequent question she >> > voices in response to compaints by other parents about one of my >> > nephews is "but what could I do?". She won't accept the answer >> > "spank him when he exhibits socially unacceptable behaviour". My >> > nephew wears gang paraphenalia, which makes sense, since he is one >> > of the, to be politically correct, "peer group leaders" at his school. >> > >> > With no adult enforcement of acceptable behaviour, I can only hope >> > he lives long enough to attend and then graduate high school and >> > join the Marines, since no one else is permitted (by my sister) to >> > teach him self discipline. >> > >> > I find it surprising that people who have to think in statements >> > like "if A then B" have such a hard time internalizing the idea of >> > action and reaction. >> > >> > In my experience, most people who exhibit socially acceptable >> > behaviour do so for fear of the consequences, not because people >> > are inherently nice creatures at some genetic level. >> >> I think this notion needs to be applied to the parents of the 'Trench >> Coat Mafia' generation. If these boomers can't be expected to nurture >> and discipline their spawn such that they mature into something >> worthwhile, then perhaps we must codify criminal liability into >> parenthood. Fear of the consequences of their children's actions might >> mitigate some of this if not lead to some measure of improvement, >> assuming the consequences were actually enforced. Unfortunately, the >> current state of parenting suggests this as one imperative which, before >> our time, has not existed. > >I've heard people suggest that people actually get licenses to have >children...a bit extreme, I'd say (you can't control sex and reproduction >THAT easily), but I'd definitely say a good parenting class is a MUST for >anyone expecting a child. Maybe with refresher courses for each subsequent. >I don't know about criminal responsibility, though...there are already >negligence laws on the books, but they only seem to come into play when >you more or less abandon a child. > > >> Thanks for moving this thread to -chat from wherever it came. I really >> needed to experience some thoughtful and rational opinions on this. I >> live about 60 miles North of Columbine in Fort Collins, Colorado. >> Naturally, a great deal of informal discussion is taking place amongst >> my neighbors and co-workers. I've been forced to avoid most of it; the >> level of ignorance and self-deception is not tolerable. > >*sigh* indeed...I've not heard much about it from others except on IRC (not >#freebsd, but #watertower on WTnet, which is where pretty much all of my >longterm IRC buddies are), but every time I turn on the radio, it's >"Congress is searching for answers to the Littleton tragedy"...more denial. >They want the "quick and easy" way out, a "anti-sorrow" pill that'll make it >all go away. I've got news for Congress...Homie don't play that. > >The best "answer" lies with the parents. Parents need to *parent* their >children, talk to them, find out what's going on in their minds. The parents >of the Littleton shooters had no CLUE what was happening, and the kids had >been planning this for a whole year. :/ No amount of pointing fingers, suing >people, or enacting new laws will make this go away...there will always be >bad apples, and as I said before, more lawsuits and laws help no one but the >lawyers and the police. Of course, this is highly "inconvenient", so >people'd rather keep pointing fingers and fighting over it. > >As for the bigger picture, our society as a whole is a big problem. As I >said before, it's the whole thing with laziness, conformity and greed. We've >become a nation of whiny, self-important, bleating sheep, to put it bluntly. >No one wants to *do* anything because it's "too hard" or "doesn't fit into >my busy schedule" or "costs way too much, I'd rather do sheepy stuff with >the money instead. now where's that 42-inch big-screen home theater at?". >We've dropped from world's best in math and science to rock-bottom in the >past 30 years. Voter turnout for polls is at an all-time low. We only have >two major political parties, when some countries have 5 or even more, and >when someone opens their mouth about a political issue, the chances are very >high it'll be culled directly from the Republican or Democratic agenda sight >unseen. We can't think for ourselves, we let the people that run the media >do it, and then it comes down to money instead of the best interests of the >people. We also can't take any responsibility for our actions -- the way the >President handled the whole Lewinsky debacle is a glaring example of this, >not to mention the OJ trial 4 years ago. > >What we need is more free thought. Don't be afraid to stand up to your boss >(or yourself!) and stay home with your kids when you need to. Read up on >things before you buy them. Go to vote, and if you don't like the candidates >and you're allowed to do it, write one in. Get away from the TV and the >computer and read a good book once in a while. When you watch TV, find >something that makes you think about things rationally, instead of jumping >to conclusions and looking for a neck to choke. > >And don't forget to look at yourself. Everything has a consequence or >side-effect; if you do something with huge consequences, for God's sake, >THINK ABOUT IT beforehand. And if you do something bad, it's not anyone's >fault but your own; to say otherwise is to be a sheep. > >-lee > >-- >+-------------------------------------------------------------------- + >| Lee Cremeans -- Manassas, VA, USA (WakkyMouse on WTnet) | >| lcremeans@erols.com | http://wakky.dyndns.org/~lee | > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 28 16:45:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6BB53157CE for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:45:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 2546 invoked by alias); 28 Apr 1999 23:45:39 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 2523 invoked by uid 0); 28 Apr 1999 23:45:39 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 28 Apr 1999 23:45:39 -0000 Message-ID: <37279DA4.84E0B69B@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:45:40 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lee Cremeans Cc: Allen Campbell , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] References: <199904272142.OAA09956@usr04.primenet.com> <372671F4.6C5F447E@verinet.com> <19990428052055.B31332@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Lee Cremeans wrote: > On Tue, Apr 27, 1999 at 08:27:00PM -0600, Allen Campbell wrote: > [Just so people know, I'm only 21, have no children, but have lived with > younger brothers for years. That said, there are just some feelings I wanna > get out about this.] I'm 20, no kids, don't plan on having any for quite a few years. But I wonder why it's the people with the "real world experience" in these matters that can't see what's painfully obvious to me. > I've heard people suggest that people actually get licenses to have > children...a bit extreme, I'd say (you can't control sex and reproduction > THAT easily), but I'd definitely say a good parenting class is a MUST for > anyone expecting a child. Maybe with refresher courses for each subsequent. > I don't know about criminal responsibility, though...there are already > negligence laws on the books, but they only seem to come into play when > you more or less abandon a child. Here in Oregon, USA, if you get into an car accident and it can be proven that you were on your cell phone while driving, you become liable for damages. Perhaps there needs to be a similar liability law for parents, but have it be linked to parenting classes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 28 16:59:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DB114D57 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 16:59:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id JAA19849; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:59:20 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <19990429095916.61702@welearn.com.au> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 09:59:16 +1000 From: Sue Blake To: Darren Pilgrim Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] References: <199904272142.OAA09956@usr04.primenet.com> <372671F4.6C5F447E@verinet.com> <19990428052055.B31332@erols.com> <37279DA4.84E0B69B@uswest.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <37279DA4.84E0B69B@uswest.net>; from Darren Pilgrim on Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 04:45:40PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 04:45:40PM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: > > Here in Oregon, USA, if you get into an car accident and it can be > proven that you were on your cell phone while driving, you become > liable for damages. Perhaps there needs to be a similar liability > law for parents, but have it be linked to parenting classes. Definitely! Anyone who can be proven to have been using a cell phone during conception should be liable for damages. -- Regards, -*Sue*- (` () '` To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 28 18: 0:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.actrix.gen.nz (mail2.actrix.gen.nz [203.96.16.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B4EE14F17 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:00:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@xtra.co.nz) Received: from actrix.gen.nz (actrix@lemuria.actrix.gen.nz [203.96.16.20]) by mail.actrix.gen.nz (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id NAA24103 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:00:04 +1200 (NZST) From: "Dan Langille" Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:00:05 +1200 Subject: FreeBSD User Group needs some Pentium CPUs X-Mailer: DMailWeb Web to Mail Gateway 1.6f, http://netwinsite.com/top_mail.htm Message-id: <3727af15.6f86.0@actrix.gen.nz> X-User-Info: 202.37.52.5 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The NZ FreeBSD User Group is creating together a new box to replace the existing NZ mirror. We have been given a box which is capable of running dual P120s. But it contains only a 486. If you know where we can obtain some Pentium chips, we can sure use them. Donations to date include a DEC XL 590 box, about 5G in SCSI drives, and a monitor. Upgrading the CPUs is the next step. cheers. http://www.nzfug.nz.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 28 18: 6:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D35A2157C7 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:06:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 24773 invoked by alias); 29 Apr 1999 01:06:21 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-chat@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 24750 invoked by uid 0); 29 Apr 1999 01:06:20 -0000 Received: from fdsl89.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (216.161.80.89) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 29 Apr 1999 01:06:20 -0000 Message-ID: <3727B08C.4AA80108@uswest.net> Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 18:06:20 -0700 From: Darren Pilgrim Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] References: <199904272142.OAA09956@usr04.primenet.com> <372671F4.6C5F447E@verinet.com> <19990428052055.B31332@erols.com> <37279DA4.84E0B69B@uswest.net> <19990429095916.61702@welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > On Wed, Apr 28, 1999 at 04:45:40PM -0700, Darren Pilgrim wrote: >> Here in Oregon, USA, if you get into an car accident and it can be >> proven that you were on your cell phone while driving, you become >> liable for damages. Perhaps there needs to be a similar liability >> law for parents, but have it be linked to parenting classes. > > Definitely! Anyone who can be proven to have been using a cell phone > during conception should be liable for damages. It should work the other way too, any one proven to be having sex while driving should be held liable... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 28 19: 0:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F278115365 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:00:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r42.bfm.org [208.18.213.138]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id WAA22940 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:00:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990428205743.00949dc0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 20:57:43 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] In-Reply-To: <3727B08C.4AA80108@uswest.net> References: <199904272142.OAA09956@usr04.primenet.com> <372671F4.6C5F447E@verinet.com> <19990428052055.B31332@erols.com> <37279DA4.84E0B69B@uswest.net> <19990429095916.61702@welearn.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sue Blake wrote: > Definitely! Anyone who can be proven to have been using a cell phone > during conception should be liable for damages. Question is: How can there be conception without the use of cells? Or without establishing a proper connection? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 28 19: 7:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (CJC26.RESNET.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.234.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37E5B14E45 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:07:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA29737 for ; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 22:07:31 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 02:07:31 +0000 (GMT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [Fwd: Hopkins FBI] In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990428205743.00949dc0@mail.bfm.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org You have such a cool email address. I hate you. On Wed, 28 Apr 1999, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > Sue Blake wrote: > > Definitely! Anyone who can be proven to have been using a cell phone > > during conception should be liable for damages. > > Question is: How can there be conception without the use of cells? Or > without establishing a proper connection? Cliff Crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- i l i k e o a t m e a l )O( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 28 19:32:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aauu.aaweber.com (cs9343-148.austin.rr.com [24.93.43.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 028F814C39; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:32:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aaweber@austin.rr.com) Received: (from aaweber@localhost) by aauu.aaweber.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA21955; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:32:47 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:32:47 -0500 From: Alan Weber To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@aauu.aaweber.com Subject: FreeBSD Cook Book Message-ID: <19990428213247.A21918@austin.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have done some more work on my Cook Book Idea. I have put up a web page at http://home.austin.rr.com/aaweber/CookBook/cookbook.html to demonstrate in a more detailed manner what I have in mind. I would appreciate any feedback that people might have regarding this idea. I am trying to make something that will fit in with the style of the current FreeBSD site. -- When I was a kid I had to rub sticks together to multiply and divide numbers. A calculator was a job description. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 28 19:33:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aauu.aaweber.com (cs9343-148.austin.rr.com [24.93.43.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F39C14E8D; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:33:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aaweber@austin.rr.com) Received: (from aaweber@localhost) by aauu.aaweber.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA21966; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:33:52 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:33:52 -0500 From: Alan Weber To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@aauu.aaweber.com Subject: FreeBSD Cook Book Message-ID: <19990428213247.A21918@austin.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have done some more work on my Cook Book Idea. I have put up a web page at http://home.austin.rr.com/aaweber/CookBook/cookbook.html to demonstrate in a more detailed manner what I have in mind. I would appreciate any feedback that people might have regarding this idea. I am trying to make something that will fit in with the style of the current FreeBSD site. -- When I was a kid I had to rub sticks together to multiply and divide numbers. A calculator was a job description. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Apr 28 19:34:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aauu.aaweber.com (cs9343-148.austin.rr.com [24.93.43.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F96C14FA3; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 19:34:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aaweber@austin.rr.com) Received: (from aaweber@localhost) by aauu.aaweber.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA21977; Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:34:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 21:34:25 -0500 From: Alan Weber To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-doc@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@aauu.aaweber.com Subject: FreeBSD Cook Book Message-ID: <19990428213247.A21918@austin.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have done some more work on my Cook Book Idea. I have put up a web page at http://home.austin.rr.com/aaweber/CookBook/cookbook.html to demonstrate in a more detailed manner what I have in mind. I would appreciate any feedback that people might have regarding this idea. I am trying to make something that will fit in with the style of the current FreeBSD site. -- When I was a kid I had to rub sticks together to multiply and divide numbers. A calculator was a job description. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 29 0:32:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 958B014D23 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:32:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10clJR-0005Jm-0A for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 07:32:50 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id IAA02071 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:32:21 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA02004; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:32:20 +0100 Message-ID: <37280AC6.12FA0AF0@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:31:18 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Confused Compiler? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I noticed last night that if you don't specify an output filename (i.e. no ``-o'' option) the default compiler (2.7.1.2?) in 3.1 still calls the binary ``a.out'', even though it's an ELF file :-/ -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 29 0:43: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DCE514C1F for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 00:42:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA21940; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:12:37 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <37280AC6.12FA0AF0@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:12:37 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Mark Ovens Subject: RE: Confused Compiler? Cc: FreeBSD-chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 29-Apr-99 Mark Ovens wrote: > I noticed last night that if you don't specify an output filename > (i.e. no ``-o'' option) the default compiler (2.7.1.2?) in 3.1 still > calls the binary ``a.out'', even though it's an ELF file :-/ Its historical.. --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 29 4:16:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DE1F14E62 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 04:16:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.2/8.9.1) id NAA24886; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 13:15:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Mark Ovens Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Confused Compiler? References: <37280AC6.12FA0AF0@uk.radan.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 29 Apr 1999 13:15:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: Mark Ovens's message of "Thu, 29 Apr 1999 08:31:18 +0100" Message-ID: Lines: 10 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > I noticed last night that if you don't specify an output filename > (i.e. no ``-o'' option) the default compiler (2.7.1.2?) in 3.1 still > calls the binary ``a.out'', even though it's an ELF file :-/ a.out is short for 'assembler output'. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 29 4:37:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-11.mail.demon.net (finch-post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21FE214E62 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 04:37:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-11.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10cp8J-000CcU-0B; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 11:37:36 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from support-3.uk.radan.com (support-3 [193.114.228.220]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id MAA00527; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:37:19 +0100 Received: from uk.radan.com by support-3.uk.radan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA07010; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:37:16 +0100 Message-ID: <3728442F.8587538A@uk.radan.com> Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 12:36:15 +0100 From: Mark Ovens Organization: Radan Computational Ltd X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3_U1 sun4m) X-Accept-Language: en-GB MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Confused Compiler? References: <37280AC6.12FA0AF0@uk.radan.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > Mark Ovens writes: > > I noticed last night that if you don't specify an output filename > > (i.e. no ``-o'' option) the default compiler (2.7.1.2?) in 3.1 still > > calls the binary ``a.out'', even though it's an ELF file :-/ > > a.out is short for 'assembler output'. > I know. I found it amusing, not a problem. That's why I posted it to -chat and not -questions. > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 29 16:37:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFACB1526C; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 16:37:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA14907; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:07:34 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id JAA80593; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:07:33 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:07:33 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: FreeBSD Chat , FreeBSD Hackers Subject: USENIX: which hotel? Message-ID: <19990430090733.A80561@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I see that there are two different hotels associated with USENIX this year. Where are people planning to stay? Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 29 17:20:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smarter.than.nu (lal-99-91.Reshall.Berkeley.EDU [169.229.99.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4888314FB6 for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:20:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smarter.than.nu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23112; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:20:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 17:20:01 -0700 (PDT) From: "Brian W. Buchanan" X-Sender: brian@smarter.than.nu To: Greg Lehey Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: USENIX: which hotel? In-Reply-To: <19990430090733.A80561@freebie.lemis.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > I see that there are two different hotels associated with USENIX this > year. Where are people planning to stay? The Marriott and Doubletree are both booked solid. I'm staying at the Monterey Hotel. I'd recommend you make hotel reservations ASAP if you want to get a room near the conference. -- Brian Buchanan brian@CSUA.Berkeley.EDU -------------------------------------------------------------------------- FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! http://www.freebsd.org daemon(n): 1. an attendant power or spirit : GENIUS 2. the cute little mascot of the FreeBSD operating system To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 29 20:14:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from aauu.aaweber.com (cs9343-148.austin.rr.com [24.93.43.148]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D96F14F5D; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 20:14:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aaweber@austin.rr.com) Received: (from aaweber@localhost) by aauu.aaweber.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id WAA25404; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:15:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:15:16 -0500 From: Alan Weber To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: FreeBSD Cookbook Message-ID: <19990429221516.A25381@austin.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Apr 29, 1999 at 09:55:33PM -0500, Alan Weber wrote: I have made some further revisions to my cook book sample. Thanks to all reviewers to date. I have added a references section that will list manual pages and web sites. The pages for all but the dialup gateway are still skeletal. Please review the dialup gateway for structure, the content is still not complete. If I do not get any more significant comments I will detail the dialup gateway for final review. The cook book can be seen at http://home.austin.rr.com/aaweber/CookBook/cookbook.html -- When I was a kid I had to rub sticks together to multiply and divide numbers. A calculator was a job description. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Apr 29 22:31:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97DD315A3D for ; Thu, 29 Apr 1999 22:31:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA16236; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:01:32 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA81596; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:01:32 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:01:32 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Brian W. Buchanan" Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: USENIX: which hotel? Message-ID: <19990430150132.L80561@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990430090733.A80561@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Brian W. Buchanan on Thu, Apr 29, 1999 at 05:20:01PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 29 April 1999 at 17:20:01 -0700, Brian W. Buchanan wrote: > On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> I see that there are two different hotels associated with USENIX this >> year. Where are people planning to stay? > > The Marriott and Doubletree are both booked solid. I'm staying at the > Monterey Hotel. I'd recommend you make hotel reservations ASAP if you > want to get a room near the conference. Thanks for the warning. I found the Mariott booked out, but was able to get a room at the Doubletree. Maybe somebody cancelled. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 30 4:55:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 608) id 75BBD14BFA; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:55:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jonathan M. Bresler" To: grog@lemis.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990430090733.A80561@freebie.lemis.com> (message from Greg Lehey on Fri, 30 Apr 1999 09:07:33 +0930) Subject: Re: USENIX: which hotel? Message-Id: <19990430115553.75BBD14BFA@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 04:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > I see that there are two different hotels associated with USENIX this > year. Where are people planning to stay? > the doubletree. jmb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 30 5:26:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12AFA14E08; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 05:26:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA11042; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:26:25 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:26:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: "Jonathan M. Bresler" Cc: grog@lemis.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX: which hotel? In-Reply-To: <19990430115553.75BBD14BFA@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hrrrm guess I should make my reservations this week, eh? -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 30 Apr 1999, Jonathan M. Bresler wrote: > > > > I see that there are two different hotels associated with USENIX this > > year. Where are people planning to stay? > > > > > the doubletree. > > jmb > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-hackers" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 30 6:45: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from psv.oss.uswest.net (psv.oss.uswest.net [204.147.85.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D09E14CD1 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 06:45:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from greg@psv.oss.uswest.net) Received: (from greg@localhost) by psv.oss.uswest.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) id IAA01492; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:44:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from greg) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990430090733.A80561@freebie.lemis.com> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 08:44:17 -0500 (CDT) Reply-To: greg@uswest.net Organization: US WEST !NTERACT From: Greg Rowe To: Greg Lehey Subject: RE: USENIX: which hotel? Cc: FreeBSD Chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The DoubleTree looks better from the Web brochures and is rated higher. They had openings as of two days ago. Greg On 29-Apr-99 Greg Lehey wrote: > I see that there are two different hotels associated with USENIX this > year. Where are people planning to stay? > > Greg > -- > See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers > finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message Greg Rowe US WEST - Internet Service Operations "The telephone, for those of you who have forgotten, was a commonly used communications technology in the days before electronic mail. They're still easy to find in most large cities." -- Nathaniel Borenstein To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 30 10: 6:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2BD3151C9 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 10:05:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id TAA23502 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 19:05:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 0418F8840; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:56:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 07:56:18 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: USENIX: which hotel? Message-ID: <19990430075618.A88013@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: FreeBSD Chat References: <19990430090733.A80561@freebie.lemis.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <19990430090733.A80561@freebie.lemis.com>; from Greg Lehey on Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 09:07:33AM +0930 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5244 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Greg Lehey: > I see that there are two different hotels associated with USENIX this > year. Where are people planning to stay? We -- 3 frenchies -- will be at the DoubleTree, being lazy, we took the conference's hotel :-) Ollivier, who had a wonderful time last year... -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #2: Fri Apr 16 22:37:03 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 30 11:36:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DC5915466 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:36:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA71324; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:36:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:36:36 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Ollivier Robert Cc: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: USENIX: which hotel? Message-ID: <19990430113636.A71305@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <19990430090733.A80561@freebie.lemis.com> <19990430075618.A88013@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <19990430075618.A88013@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 07:56:18AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 07:56:18AM +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Greg Lehey: > > I see that there are two different hotels associated with USENIX this > > year. Where are people planning to stay? > > We -- 3 frenchies -- will be at the DoubleTree, being lazy, we took the > conference's hotel :-) Also at the DoubleTree. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 30 11:46:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from imap.ncsa.es (imap.ncsa.es [194.179.50.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86212158AF for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 11:46:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesusr@ncsa.es) Received: from ender.ncsa.es (ender.ncsa.es [194.179.50.15]) by imap.ncsa.es (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA23586; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:44:43 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990430113636.A71305@ontario.mooseriver.com> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 20:44:41 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: jesusr@ncsa.es Organization: Nexus Comunicaciones, S.A. From: Jesus Rodriguez To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Subject: Re: USENIX: which hotel? Cc: FreeBSD Chat , Ollivier Robert Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 30-Apr-99 Josef Grosch wrote: > On Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 07:56:18AM +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: >> According to Greg Lehey: >> > I see that there are two different hotels associated with USENIX this >> > year. Where are people planning to stay? >> >> We -- 3 frenchies -- will be at the DoubleTree, being lazy, we took the >> conference's hotel :-) > > Also at the DoubleTree. I've gone now to an online reservation site and says there are not available rooms for Usenix/Freenix dates at DoubleTree hotel :( . JesusR. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 30 12:25: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (Haldjas.folklore.ee [193.40.6.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F64F14C4A for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:25:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from narvi@haldjas.folklore.ee) Received: from haldjas.folklore.ee (haldjas.folklore.ee [172.17.2.1] (may be forged)) by haldjas.folklore.ee (8.8.8/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA05528; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:24:44 +0300 (EEST) Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:24:44 +0300 (EEST) From: Narvi To: Mark Ovens Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Confused Compiler? In-Reply-To: <3728442F.8587538A@uk.radan.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > Mark Ovens writes: > > > I noticed last night that if you don't specify an output filename > > > (i.e. no ``-o'' option) the default compiler (2.7.1.2?) in 3.1 still > > > calls the binary ``a.out'', even though it's an ELF file :-/ > > > > a.out is short for 'assembler output'. > > > > I know. I found it amusing, not a problem. That's why I posted it to > -chat and not -questions. > Well, I guess you could make a patch that caused it to generate an.elf instead (guarded by say #ifdef APRIL_FOOLS) and send-pr it? > > DES > > -- > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > -- > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov > _______________________________________________________________ > Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK > CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry > mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com > Sander There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - all these are just illusions. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 30 12:28:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from toxic.magnesium.net (toxic.magnesium.net [204.188.6.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7D05014C4A for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:28:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unfurl@toxic.magnesium.net) Received: (qmail 50194 invoked by uid 1001); 30 Apr 1999 19:28:03 -0000 Date: 30 Apr 1999 12:28:03 -0700 Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 12:28:03 -0700 From: Bill Swingle To: FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: USENIX: which hotel? Message-ID: <19990430122803.A50051@dub.net> References: <19990430113636.A71305@ontario.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Jesus Rodriguez on Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 08:44:41PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 08:44:41PM +0200, Jesus Rodriguez wrote: > I've gone now to an online reservation site and says there are not available > rooms for Usenix/Freenix dates at DoubleTree hotel :( . > > JesusR. Anyone willing to rent some floor space out to us sleeping-bag types? -Bill -- -=| Bill Swingle - -=| "I hate quotations." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson -=| FreeBSD - The Power to Serve! - http://www.freebsd.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 30 13:17:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from imap.ncsa.es (imap.ncsa.es [194.179.50.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3868415230 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 13:16:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jesusr@ncsa.es) Received: from ender.ncsa.es (ender.ncsa.es [194.179.50.15]) by imap.ncsa.es (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id WAA25150; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:15:46 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990430122803.A50051@dub.net> Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 22:15:45 +0200 (CEST) Reply-To: jesusr@ncsa.es Organization: Nexus Comunicaciones, S.A. From: Jesus Rodriguez To: Bill Swingle Subject: Re: USENIX: which hotel? Cc: FreeBSD Chat Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 30-Apr-99 Bill Swingle wrote: > On Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 08:44:41PM +0200, Jesus Rodriguez wrote: >> I've gone now to an online reservation site and says there are not available >> rooms for Usenix/Freenix dates at DoubleTree hotel :( . >> >> JesusR. > > Anyone willing to rent some floor space out to us sleeping-bag types? And maybe some one who wants share a room? JesusR. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 30 17:44:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01A3814D16 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 17:44:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marko@uk.radan.com) Received: from [158.152.75.22] (helo=uk.radan.com) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10dNt5-0005gJ-0A; Sat, 1 May 1999 00:44:12 +0000 Organisation: Radan Computational Ltd., Bath, UK. Phone: +44-1225-320320 Fax: +44-1225-320311 Received: from marder-1. (rasnt-1 [193.114.228.211]) by uk.radan.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with ESMTP id BAA00794; Sat, 1 May 1999 01:43:38 +0100 Received: (from marko@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id BAA00662; Sat, 1 May 1999 01:39:15 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from marko) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 01:39:15 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Narvi Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , FreeBSD-chat Subject: Re: Confused Compiler? Message-ID: <19990501013915.A629@marder-1> References: <3728442F.8587538A@uk.radan.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Narvi on Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 10:24:44PM +0300 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 10:24:44PM +0300, Narvi wrote: > > On Thu, 29 Apr 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > > > > > > Mark Ovens writes: > > > > I noticed last night that if you don't specify an output filename > > > > (i.e. no ``-o'' option) the default compiler (2.7.1.2?) in 3.1 still > > > > calls the binary ``a.out'', even though it's an ELF file :-/ > > > > > > a.out is short for 'assembler output'. > > > > > > > I know. I found it amusing, not a problem. That's why I posted it to > > -chat and not -questions. > > > > Well, I guess you could make a patch that caused it to generate an.elf > instead (guarded by say #ifdef APRIL_FOOLS) and send-pr it? > :-) > > > DES > > > -- > > > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > > > -- > > FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org > > My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov > > _______________________________________________________________ > > Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK > > CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry > > mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com > > > > Sander > > There is no love, no good, no happiness and no future - > all these are just illusions. > > > -- FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~markov _______________________________________________________________ Mark Ovens, CNC Apps Engineer, Radan Computational Ltd. Bath UK CAD/CAM solutions for Sheetmetal Working Industry mailto:marko@uk.radan.com http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Apr 30 18:14:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from paris.dppl.com (paris.dppl.com [205.230.74.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id D5DBD14DB0 for ; Fri, 30 Apr 1999 18:13:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from yds@ingress.net) Received: (qmail 68382 invoked from network); 1 May 1999 01:13:55 -0000 Received: from ichiban.ingress.com (HELO ichiban) (205.230.64.31) by paris.dppl.com with SMTP; 1 May 1999 01:13:55 -0000 Message-ID: <01bb01be936f$d54a45a0$1f40e6cd@ingress.com> From: "Yarema" To: "Amancio Hasty" Cc: , References: <199904161905.MAA92711@rah.star-gate.com> Subject: Re: App Idea: Configuration Date: Fri, 30 Apr 1999 21:13:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Now lets keep the ball rolling and remind people that LDAP is > not restricted to MTAs. > > I volunteer to write a FreeBSD LDAP Web Page to help out. > > What I need is specific instructions to enable LDAP for each > MTA and how is LDAP used. > > > Don't forget ALL of you are invited to participate > Been waiting for something like this to happen.. I took a stab at it and never got a working LDAP config. Now that there are some example I might try again. FWIW, here's my /usr/ports/mail/pine4/Makefile.local ---BEGIN--- BUILD_DEPENDS+= /nonexistent:${PORTSDIR}/net/ldap:build MAKE_ENV+= OPTIMIZE='${CFLAGS}' DEBUG='' post-extract: @${LN} -s ${PORTSDIR}/net/ldap/work/ldap-3.3 ${WRKSRC}/ldap ----END---- Dunno if the MAKE_ENV is still needed but it does make pine honor CFLAGS. unfortunately pine doesn't work with the latest openldap therefore it requires a build of the older net/ldap port. The post-extract target is all that's required for pine to find the ldap libraries and link them in. Then you can go to pine's SETUP CONFIGURATION screen and: [X] ldap-result-to-addrbook-add Shoulda probably submitted a port update, but I suspect this msg might do. I read somewhere that Red Hat wrote an LDAP PAM module. Perhaps that could be incorporated in to FreeBSD as well. -- Yarema To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 1 1: 0: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E64B1505C for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 01:00:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19219 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 1 May 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199905010800.BAA19219@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 01:00:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org San Francisco Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) has put up a web page of employers in the San Francisco Bay Area who are looking for employees, permanent or contact, who have FreeBSD skills. The URL is : http://www.bafug.org/BayAreaJobs.html Employers: The emphasis here is FreeBSD. The job you are advertising should have FreeBSD as a major component of the job. If you wish to advertise a job please send the URL to your web page with the job listings to jgrosch@MooseRiver.com. Employees: When contacting these employers please tell them that you saw this job listing on the Bay Area FreeBSD Jobs page. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: BayAreaFreeBSDJobs.txt,v 1.4 1999/03/19 16:25:54 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 1 1: 0:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9A5E15A13 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 01:00:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19243 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 1 May 1999 01:00:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199905010800.BAA19243@agora.bafug.org> Subject: FreeBSD Counter Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 01:00:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Counter Project The FreeBSD Counter project and BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) have put up the first public beta of its counter page. The Counter project is an attempt to gauge the installed base of FreeBSD. We current do not have a very good idea as to what is our installed base, how FreeBSD is being used and by whom. Because of this, FreeBSD is at a disadvantage when talking to ISVs and hardware and software vendors. You are invited to register with the counter project. The counter page can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/FbsdCounter.html Couple of caveats: * Your information is held to be confidential. Only those on the project, FreeBSD core group, and Walnut Creek CDROM will ever see this information. It will _NOT_ be handed over to spammers, direct marketers, and any of the other assorted bozos. * Suggestions and comments are welcome! * The database behind this page was built from the email registrations sent to Walnut Creek. If you registered at the time of an install chances are you are in this database. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: CounterPageAnnounce.txt,v 1.9 1999/03/19 16:26:06 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 1 1: 0:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC1415A18 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 01:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19261 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 1 May 1999 01:00:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199905010800.BAA19261@agora.bafug.org> Subject: Bay Area Install-A-Thon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 01:00:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Install-A-Thon BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) will hold it's monthly Install-A-Thon in conjunction with the Robert Austin computer show on April 10th at the Oakland Convention Center and Cow Palace in Daly City on April 24th. The purpose of these Install-A-Thons is for new and experienced user to meet and solve problem they are having with FreeBSD. It is also a time to promote FreeBSD to potential users. The Oakland Convention Center is in downtown Oakland on the corner of 10th street and Clay Street. There is come on the street parking but your best bet is lot parking. The Cow Palace is in Daly City on the corner of Geneva and Santos. Parking is $5.00. Street parking is available but _VERY_ limited. Admission to the show is $5.00 unless you have a VIP pass. VIP passes can be gotten at Robert Austin's web page (http://www.robertaustin.com). The show hours are 10:00am to 4:00pm. We will be meeting at the Cow Palace or the Oakland convention center, respectively at 9:00am to setup and will be there till 4 when the show closes. Tear down usually takes about 30 minutes. If you are interested in helping please contact Josef Grosch - jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Nicole Harrington - nicole@mediacity.com More information about the show can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Install.html This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: InstallAnnounce.txt,v 1.11 1999/03/19 16:26:30 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 1 1: 0:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from agora.bafug.org (agora.bafug.org [206.24.106.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D30C715083 for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 01:00:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@agora.bafug.org) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by agora.bafug.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA19278 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 1 May 1999 01:00:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) From: Joe Grosch Message-Id: <199905010800.BAA19278@agora.bafug.org> Subject: FreeBSD Retail Page To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 01:00:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Retail outlets for FreeBSD A common question for new users of FreeBSD is, "Where can I get a copy of FreeBSD"? Aside from Walnut Creek CDROM (http://www.cdrom.com) there are a number of retail outlets world wide. A partial list can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Retail.html Notice this is a partial list. We are collecting addresses (snail, email, and web) of retail outlets for FreeBSD. So, send us the address of you friendly (or not-so-friendly) store that carries FreeBSD. This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- $Id: RetailAnnounce.txt,v 1.5 1999/03/19 16:25:34 jgrosch Exp $ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 1 11: 3:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D085C152AA for ; Sat, 1 May 1999 11:03:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id LAA80876 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sat, 1 May 1999 11:03:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Sat, 1 May 1999 11:03:33 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Bay Area Install-A-Thon (correction) Message-ID: <19990501110333.B80754@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD Install-A-Thon BAFUG (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) will hold it's monthly Install-A-Thon in conjunction with the Robert Austin computer show on May 8th at the Cow Palace in Daly City and on May 15th at the Oakland Convention Center. The purpose of these Install-A-Thons is for new and experienced user to meet and solve problem they are having with FreeBSD. It is also a time to promote FreeBSD to potential users. The Oakland Convention Center is in downtown Oakland on the corner of 10th street and Clay Street. There is some on street parking but your best bet is lot parking. The Cow Palace is in Daly City on the corner of Geneva and Santos. Street parking is available but _VERY_ limited. There is, however, plenty of lot parking. Lot parking costs $5.00 Admission to the show is $5.00 unless you have a VIP pass. VIP passes can be gotten at Robert Austin's web page (http://www.robertaustin.com). The show hours are 10:00am to 4:00pm. We will be meeting at the Cow Palace or the Oakland convention center, respectively at 9:00am to setup and will be there till 4 when the show closes. Tear down usually takes about 30 minutes. If you are interested in helping please contact Josef Grosch - jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Nicole Harrington - nicole@mediacity.com More information about the show can be found at http://www.bafug.org/Install.html This notice is posted twice a month, on the 1st and the 15th of the month. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 1 23: 5:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D9A15330; Sat, 1 May 1999 23:05:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA27985; Sat, 1 May 1999 23:03:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905020603.XAA27985@implode.root.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: new picture of wcarchive From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sat, 01 May 1999 23:03:15 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A new picture of the new wcarchive is now available at: ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.jpg ...and an updated hardware description is available at: ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.txt -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 2 0:17:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from virtualia.combios.es (virtualia.combios.es [195.53.190.48]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6ADB114F34; Sun, 2 May 1999 00:17:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atras@bigfoot.com) Received: from bigfoot.com (195.53.104.11) by virtualia.combios.es (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.81) with SMTP id ; Sun, 02 May 1999 09:15:47 +0200 Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 09:15:47 +0200 Message-ID: From: atras@bigfoot.com To: atras@bigfoot.com Subject: SAVE UNTIL 70 % IN ITS INTERNATIONA Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ESTE MENSAJE ES BILINGUE - EAST MESSAGE IS BILINGUE AHORRE HASTA UN 70 % EN SUS LLAMADAS INTERNACIONALES QUIERE ECONOMIZAR EN SUS LLAMADAS INTERNACIONALES ?? 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Best regards, To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 2 4:16:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7EBA150CD; Sun, 2 May 1999 04:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id EAA28670; Sun, 2 May 1999 04:14:04 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905021114.EAA28670@implode.root.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: new traffic record for wcarchive From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 04:14:04 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org After the first full day of operation on the new server hardware for wcarchive, we set a new one-day traffic record of 969GB. Details below. 46% of the traffic was for Linux, due mainly to the release of Redhat 6.0. The fast ethernet was completely saturated for the 24 hour period. There are plans to add additional network capacity, but no agreement has been made on this yet. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com ------- Forwarded Message Return-Path: burden@web1.cdrom.com Received: from wcarchive.cdrom.com (wcarchive.cdrom.com [209.155.82.18]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA28605 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 03:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web1.cdrom.com (web1.cdrom.com [209.155.82.19]) by wcarchive.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id DAA87405 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 03:37:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from burden@web1.cdrom.com) Received: (from burden@localhost) by web1.cdrom.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA17788 for ftp-stats@ftp.cdrom.com; Sun, 2 May 1999 03:37:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from burden) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 03:37:26 -0700 (PDT) From: John Burden Message-Id: <199905021037.DAA17788@web1.cdrom.com> To: ftp-stats@wcarchive.cdrom.com Subject: Dual Log Stats - 1999/05/02 Dual Log Stats : May 02 1999 -------------------------------------------------- Current Record Delta --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Bytes 969,876,086,079 969,876,086,079 New Record! Files 2,522,598 2,988,298 -465,700 FTP Bytes 969,876,086,079 969,876,086,079 New Record! FTP Files 2,522,598 2,988,298 -465,700 HTTP Bytes 58,081,249,072 -58,081,249,072 HTTP Files 567,700 -567,700 =============================================================================== Total FTP HTTP Total FTP HTTP Total Total Bytes Bytes Bytes Files Files Files %Bytes %Files - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ /linux 452,284M 452,284M 0M 1,754,951 1,754,951 0 46.63 69.57 /3dfiles 131,810M 131,810M 0M 40,095 40,095 0 13.59 1.59 /planetquake 69,538M 69,538M 0M 47,540 47,540 0 7.17 1.88 /idgames 52,751M 52,751M 0M 30,801 30,801 0 5.44 1.22 /FreeBSD 50,832M 50,832M 0M 287,678 287,678 0 5.24 11.40 /cnet 37,561M 37,561M 0M 25,460 25,460 0 3.87 1.01 /simtelnet 31,091M 31,091M 0M 50,054 50,054 0 3.21 1.98 /games 27,992M 27,992M 0M 14,132 14,132 0 2.89 0.56 /gamesdomain 25,060M 25,060M 0M 8,333 8,333 0 2.58 0.33 /unreal 21,434M 21,434M 0M 10,305 10,305 0 2.21 0.41 /3drealms 13,716M 13,716M 0M 21,547 21,547 0 1.41 0.85 /idgames2 12,072M 12,072M 0M 34,880 34,880 0 1.24 1.38 /audio 11,058M 11,058M 0M 120,893 120,893 0 1.14 4.79 /demos 5,691M 5,691M 0M 10,555 10,555 0 0.59 0.42 /bluesnews 4,319M 4,319M 0M 1,180 1,180 0 0.45 0.05 /dresden 3,830M 3,830M 0M 4,851 4,851 0 0.39 0.19 /jn4 2,796M 2,796M 0M 676 676 0 0.29 0.03 /XFree86 2,005M 2,005M 0M 2,733 2,733 0 0.21 0.11 /gt 1,738M 1,738M 0M 524 524 0 0.18 0.02 /sac 1,354M 1,354M 0M 3,955 3,955 0 0.14 0.16 /cheats 1,053M 1,053M 0M 2,371 2,371 0 0.11 0.09 /os2 1,040M 1,040M 0M 4,025 4,025 0 0.11 0.16 /delphi 1,011M 1,011M 0M 4,319 4,319 0 0.10 0.17 /artpacks 924M 924M 0M 2,694 2,694 0 0.10 0.11 /japanese 863M 863M 0M 956 956 0 0.09 0.04 /perl 778M 778M 0M 7,390 7,390 0 0.08 0.29 /tex 640M 640M 0M 2,109 2,109 0 0.07 0.08 /gnu 483M 483M 0M 531 531 0 0.05 0.02 /gutenberg 451M 451M 0M 1,671 1,671 0 0.05 0.07 /delphideli 336M 336M 0M 1,247 1,247 0 0.03 0.05 //ls-lR 326M 326M 0M 996 996 0 0.03 0.04 //ls-lR.gz 323M 323M 0M 125 125 0 0.03 0.00 /languages 242M 242M 0M 1,424 1,424 0 0.02 0.06 /bsd-sources 239M 239M 0M 65 65 0 0.02 0.00 /povray 224M 224M 0M 615 615 0 0.02 0.02 /unixfreeware 195M 195M 0M 326 326 0 0.02 0.01 /gus 189M 189M 0M 372 372 0 0.02 0.01 /abuse 188M 188M 0M 216 216 0 0.02 0.01 /infozip 167M 167M 0M 1,024 1,024 0 0.02 0.04 /novell 158M 158M 0M 569 569 0 0.02 0.02 /x2ftp 135M 135M 0M 522 522 0 0.01 0.02 /ase 124M 124M 0M 916 916 0 0.01 0.04 /security 113M 113M 0M 542 542 0 0.01 0.02 /mozilla 95M 95M 0M 32 32 0 0.01 0.00 /NetBSD 78M 78M 0M 183 183 0 0.01 0.01 /garbo 65M 65M 0M 419 419 0 0.01 0.02 /qnx 55M 55M 0M 46 46 0 0.01 0.00 /irc 40M 40M 0M 347 347 0 0.00 0.01 /math 38M 38M 0M 296 296 0 0.00 0.01 /wcarchive.jpg 30M 30M 0M 352 352 0 0.00 0.01 /X11 30M 30M 0M 135 135 0 0.00 0.01 /cdrom 27M 27M 0M 700 700 0 0.00 0.03 /java 27M 27M 0M 319 319 0 0.00 0.01 /4cust 23M 23M 0M 7 7 0 0.00 0.00 /hamradio 23M 23M 0M 244 244 0 0.00 0.01 /tcl 18M 18M 0M 222 222 0 0.00 0.01 /viseng 18M 18M 0M 15 15 0 0.00 0.00 /mac 14M 14M 0M 116 116 0 0.00 0.00 /avalon 13M 13M 0M 175 175 0 0.00 0.01 /tomahawk 13M 13M 0M 54 54 0 0.00 0.00 /python 12M 12M 0M 167 167 0 0.00 0.01 /algorithms 11M 11M 0M 1,730 1,730 0 0.00 0.07 /beos 11M 11M 0M 69 69 0 0.00 0.00 //.message 10M 10M 0M 7,215 7,215 0 0.00 0.29 /asme 9M 9M 0M 187 187 0 0.00 0.01 /internet 8M 8M 0M 242 242 0 0.00 0.01 /netlib 7M 7M 0M 123 123 0 0.00 0.00 /obi 6M 6M 0M 94 94 0 0.00 0.00 /MacSciTech 5M 5M 0M 17 17 0 0.00 0.00 /vim 5M 5M 0M 19 19 0 0.00 0.00 /png 3M 3M 0M 39 39 0 0.00 0.00 /sde 2M 2M 0M 9 9 0 0.00 0.00 /wcarchive.txt 1M 1M 0M 571 571 0 0.00 0.02 //UPLOADS.TXT 1M 1M 0M 639 639 0 0.00 0.03 /unix-c 1M 1M 0M 16 16 0 0.00 0.00 /README 1M 1M 0M 254 254 0 0.00 0.01 /slow.txt 813k 813k 0k 607 607 0 0.00 0.02 //README 429k 429k 0k 617 617 0 0.00 0.02 //archive-info 96k 96k 0k 1 1 0 0.00 0.00 /games_patches 68k 68k 0k 40 40 0 0.00 0.00 /mng 50k 50k 0k 28 28 0 0.00 0.00 /msg.toomany 22k 22k 0k 55 55 0 0.00 0.00 /mutt 10k 10k 0k 1 1 0 0.00 0.00 /msg.toomany.real 9k 9k 0k 25 25 0 0.00 0.00 //config.txt 6k 6k 0k 2 2 0 0.00 0.00 /configuration 3k 3k 0k 1 1 0 0.00 0.00 - -------------- -------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- ------ ------ 86 archives 969,876M 969,876M 0M 2,522,598 2,522,598 0 ~100.0 ~100.0 (k) = 1,000 bytes (M) = 1,000,000 bytes =============================================================================== Yesterday Average (30 days) Delta - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 2,522,598 1,469,996 1,052,602 Hits (HTTP) 0 0 Hits (combo) 2,522,598 1,469,996 1,052,602 Bytes (FTP) 969,876,086,079 752,838,493,753 217,037,592,326 Bytes (HTTP) 0 0 Bytes (combo) 969,876,086,079 752,838,493,753 217,037,592,326 Past 7 Days Past 30 Days Since 26 Feb 1997 - ------------- --------------------- --------------------- --------------------- Hits (FTP) 11,027,534 44,099,884 562,429,691 Hits (HTTP) 0 0 154,476,821 Hits (combo) 11,027,534 44,099,884 716,906,522 Bytes (FTP) 5,348,720,123,645 22,585,154,812,591 261,846,494,661,275 Bytes (HTTP) 0 0 10,106,100,542,342 Bytes (combo) 5,348,720,123,645 22,585,154,812,591 271,952,595,203,517 ------- End of Forwarded Message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 2 6:45:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8FA31520D for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 06:45:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (Hamilton-ppp44810.sympatico.ca [206.172.76.3]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA17457; Sun, 2 May 1999 09:47:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id JAA19307; Sun, 2 May 1999 09:45:28 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 09:45:27 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: David Greenman Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: new traffic record for wcarchive Message-ID: <19990502094527.A19234@mad> References: <199905021114.EAA28670@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <199905021114.EAA28670@implode.root.com>; from David Greenman on Sun, May 02, 1999 at 04:14:04AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, May 02, 1999 at 04:14:04AM -0700, David Greenman wrote: > After the first full day of operation on the new server hardware for > wcarchive, we set a new one-day traffic record of 969GB. Details below. > 46% of the traffic was for Linux, due mainly to the release of Redhat 6.0. Does wcarchive start to kind-of glow with an internal radiance after this kind of thing? ;-) -- This .sig is not innovative, witty, or profund. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 2 7:27: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C710B14D9F; Sun, 2 May 1999 07:27:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-63.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.63]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id JAA11424; Sun, 2 May 1999 09:26:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id JAA15723; Sun, 2 May 1999 09:26:14 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199905021426.JAA15723@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: new picture of wcarchive In-reply-to: Message from David Greenman of "Sat, 01 May 1999 23:03:15 PDT." <199905020603.XAA27985@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 09:26:14 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman writes: > A new picture of the new wcarchive is now available at: > > ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.jpg Nice picture. But it needs an arrow pointing to which disk drive(s) the FreeBSD archives are kept. :-) -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 2 8:43:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from arutam.inch.com (ns.inch.com [207.240.140.101]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C85715247 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 08:43:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freyes@inch.com) Received: from your-name (TC2-dial-123-215.oldslip.inch.com [207.240.215.123]) by arutam.inch.com (8.9.1a/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA23250 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 11:42:01 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199905021542.LAA23250@arutam.inch.com> From: "Francisco Reyes" To: "FreeBSd Chat list" Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 11:44:51 -0400 Reply-To: "Francisco Reyes" X-Mailer: PMMail 98 Professional (2.01.1600) For Windows 98 (4.10.1998) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: New toolkit. Pricing and overlaps Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just noticed the Tookit and although it is a great deal for the usrs I think it should have been marketted different. For instance this has 6 CDs, 2.2.X and 3.X latest snapshots yet cost the same as a Release. Wouldn't it had made sense to have this package cost higher than Release? The other reasons for a price differentiation is that if the toolkits are generated in a schedule simmilar to the Releases then people may opt to drop their release subscriptions and go with the Toolkit. I could be wrong, but I would think that it cost more Walnut Creek to produce/ship the toolkit than it does a Release. One way to solve the problem would be to set the FreeBSD releases less often and have the toolkits in between. For instance if Releases in CDs were done no more frequent than twice a year then the toolkits could be done also twice a year falling 3 months after Releases. This does not need affect the FreeBSD releases (i.e. 3.2). I am only suggesting that CD Releases are made less often (i.e. no more than twice a year) and to complement then with Toolkits. Thoughts? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 2 9:28:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1142015107; Sun, 2 May 1999 09:28:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA17692; Sun, 2 May 1999 18:28:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id SAA33527; Sun, 2 May 1999 18:28:53 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Sun, 2 May 1999 18:28:53 +0200 From: Eivind Eklund To: Bryan Fullerton Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blowfish/Twofish Message-ID: <19990502182853.D32819@bitbox.follo.net> References: <21634.925539195@critter.freebsd.dk> <19990502144906.E23950@bitbox.follo.net> <199905021458.QAA02696@greenpeace.grondar.za> <19990502170929.B32819@bitbox.follo.net> <199905021541.RAA02885@greenpeace.grondar.za> <19990502181647.C32819@bitbox.follo.net> <19990502122142.A289@samurai.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <19990502122142.A289@samurai.com>; from Bryan Fullerton on Sun, May 02, 1999 at 12:21:43PM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Moved to -chat - please try to hold the lists reasonably to their topic. On Sun, May 02, 1999 at 12:21:43PM -0400, Bryan Fullerton wrote: > On Sun, May 02, 1999 at 06:16:47PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > > The point of this exercise would (IMO, at least) only be OpenBSD > > compatibility, where OpenBSD for marketeering reasons has decided to > > use Blowfish as part of their hash algorithm. If people can't migrate > > their password files, they are much less likely to migrate to FreeBSD, > > which means we should support their password formats if feasible. > > Are there many people migrating from OpenBSD to FreeBSD? I don't know - but the chance of there being many of them increases if there is a simple way for them to migrate. This needs to include the ability to keep their old password files. Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun May 2 16:47:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ACE714DD2 for ; Sun, 2 May 1999 16:47:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA25053; Sun, 2 May 1999 17:47:31 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990502174645.04604880@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Sun, 02 May 1999 17:47:19 -0600 To: David Kelly , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: new picture of wcarchive In-Reply-To: <199905021426.JAA15723@nospam.hiwaay.net> References: <199905020603.XAA27985@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's a RAID system, so it is doubtful that there is a unique answer to that question. --Brett Glass At 09:26 AM 5/2/99 -0500, David Kelly wrote: >David Greenman writes: > > A new picture of the new wcarchive is now available at: > > > > ftp://ftp.cdrom.com/archive-info/wcarchive.jpg > >Nice picture. But it needs an arrow pointing to which disk drive(s) the >FreeBSD archives are kept. :-) > > >-- >David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net >===================================================================== >The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its >capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 1:12: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EBC815637 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 01:11:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id BAA00833 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 3 May 1999 01:11:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 01:11:57 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: wcarchive new record Message-ID: <19990503011157.A810@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman's original post of this record can be found at : http://www.bafug.org/NewRecord.html Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 7:20:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5B3A15272; Mon, 3 May 1999 07:20:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA05884; Mon, 3 May 1999 10:20:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 10:20:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Eivind Eklund Cc: Bryan Fullerton , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Blowfish/Twofish In-Reply-To: <19990502182853.D32819@bitbox.follo.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I actually think this is a good idea, as I kept my OpenBSD sparc box up when I moved to FreeBSD, but it would have been nice to be able to move passwd files between them, would have made it less of a hassle for me. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sun, 2 May 1999, Eivind Eklund wrote: > Moved to -chat - please try to hold the lists reasonably to their > topic. > > On Sun, May 02, 1999 at 12:21:43PM -0400, Bryan Fullerton wrote: > > On Sun, May 02, 1999 at 06:16:47PM +0200, Eivind Eklund wrote: > > > > > > The point of this exercise would (IMO, at least) only be OpenBSD > > > compatibility, where OpenBSD for marketeering reasons has decided to > > > use Blowfish as part of their hash algorithm. If people can't migrate > > > their password files, they are much less likely to migrate to FreeBSD, > > > which means we should support their password formats if feasible. > > > > Are there many people migrating from OpenBSD to FreeBSD? > > I don't know - but the chance of there being many of them increases if > there is a simple way for them to migrate. This needs to include the > ability to keep their old password files. > > Eivind. > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-security" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 10:27:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from circe.tops.net (circe.tops.net [194.162.222.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8217414E33 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 10:27:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lederer@bonn-online.com) Received: from bonn-online.com (ppp157.dialin.bonn-online.com [194.162.223.157]) by circe.tops.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00323 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 19:26:57 +0200 Message-ID: <372DDC5C.BBB3CFDC@bonn-online.com> Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:26:52 +0200 From: Sebastian Lederer X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.07 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Another xdm replacement Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi, for those (like me) who do not want to install KDE just to get a decent-looking graphical login, I wrote another variant of xdm, named LoginPanel. See the web page at http://www.stud.fh-rhein-sieg.de/~sleder2s/Development/LoginPanel.html or the README file at http://www.stud.fh-rhein-sieg.de/~sleder2s/Development/LoginPanel/README - Sebastian Lederer -- Sebastian Lederer lederer@bonn-online.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 13:18:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCC014E65; Mon, 3 May 1999 13:18:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA03852; Mon, 3 May 1999 13:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905032016.NAA03852@implode.root.com> To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org Subject: wcarchive From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 13:16:24 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FYI, Micron has made info on the NetFRAME 9201 server (what wcarchive is made from) available on their web site at: http://www.micronpc.com/web/walnutcreek.html -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 13:37:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA36C14C0F; Mon, 3 May 1999 13:37:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.144]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA3666; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:37:01 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02067; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:37:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199905032016.NAA03852@implode.root.com> Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 22:37:52 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: David Greenman Subject: RE: wcarchive Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-May-99 David Greenman wrote: > FYI, Micron has made info on the NetFRAME 9201 server (what wcarchive > is > made from) available on their web site at: > > http://www.micronpc.com/web/walnutcreek.html Too bad they only mention Novell and NT as NOS's, I mean, they could at least brag about wcarchive and FreeBSD... Or I must have missed that part on the site... The URL links through to the commercial details... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 13:40:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5765714C20; Mon, 3 May 1999 13:40:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA04004; Mon, 3 May 1999 13:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905032037.NAA04004@implode.root.com> To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Cc: advocacy@freebsd.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: wcarchive In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 May 1999 22:37:52 +0200." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 13:37:56 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On 03-May-99 David Greenman wrote: >> FYI, Micron has made info on the NetFRAME 9201 server (what wcarchive >> is >> made from) available on their web site at: >> >> http://www.micronpc.com/web/walnutcreek.html > >Too bad they only mention Novell and NT as NOS's, I mean, they could at >least brag about wcarchive and FreeBSD... > >Or I must have missed that part on the site... > >The URL links through to the commercial details... This is all still very new. There are also problems with using the machine's onboard SCSI, so I'm not sure we're quite ready to say that FreeBSD is fully supported on it. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 13:49:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5503014C20; Mon, 3 May 1999 13:49:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.144]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA5A1A; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:49:26 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA02195; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:50:17 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199905032037.NAA04004@implode.root.com> Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 22:50:16 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: David Greenman Subject: Re: wcarchive Cc: chat@freebsd.org, advocacy@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 03-May-99 David Greenman wrote: > This is all still very new. There are also problems with using the > machine's onboard SCSI, so I'm not sure we're quite ready to say that > FreeBSD is fully supported on it. Well, supported or not, the thing does obscene amounts of data transferring =) *mumble, I need this RAID controller to work for those Dell's* --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 14:32:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from super-g.inch.com (super-g.com [207.240.140.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DD9F154E1 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 14:32:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from spork@super-g.com) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by super-g.inch.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA29282; Mon, 3 May 1999 17:31:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 17:31:41 -0400 (EDT) From: spork X-Sender: spork@super-g.inch.com To: David Greenman Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new traffic record for wcarchive In-Reply-To: <199905021114.EAA28670@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 2 May 1999, David Greenman wrote: > The fast ethernet was completely saturated for the 24 hour period. There > are plans to add additional network capacity, but no agreement has been > made on this yet. Just curious, when the net connection is saturated, do you come in out-of-band for maintenance? Or is the lag acceptable? Thanks, Charles > > -DG > > David Greenman > Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org > Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 14:38: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D2AA1517D for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 14:38:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA04185; Mon, 3 May 1999 14:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905032135.OAA04185@implode.root.com> To: spork Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: new traffic record for wcarchive In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 03 May 1999 17:31:41 EDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 14:35:11 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >On Sun, 2 May 1999, David Greenman wrote: > >> The fast ethernet was completely saturated for the 24 hour period. There >> are plans to add additional network capacity, but no agreement has been >> made on this yet. > >Just curious, when the net connection is saturated, do you come in >out-of-band for maintenance? Or is the lag acceptable? Same as everyone else. The lag isn't too bad right now. We're talking about adding a private 100Mbps network between the web server and ftp server so that admin things (daily backups, etc) can happen in a timely manner. We're also talking about gigabit ethernet. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 16: 3:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from xylan.com (postal.xylan.com [208.8.0.248]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D122B14E3B; Mon, 3 May 1999 16:03:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wes@softweyr.com) Received: from mailhub.xylan.com by xylan.com (8.8.7/SMI-SVR4 (xylan-mgw 2.2 [OUT])) id QAA23264; Mon, 3 May 1999 16:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omni.xylan.com by mailhub.xylan.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4 (mailhub 2.1 [HUB])) id QAA17686; Mon, 3 May 1999 16:03:08 -0700 Received: from softweyr.com (dyn3.utah.xylan.com) by omni.xylan.com (4.1/SMI-4.1 (xylan engr [SPOOL])) id AA08597; Mon, 3 May 99 16:03:05 PDT Message-Id: <372E2B29.FD51A457@softweyr.com> Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 17:03:05 -0600 From: Wes Peters Organization: Softweyr LLC X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en Mime-Version: 1.0 To: dg@root.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, advocacy@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: wcarchive References: <199905032016.NAA03852@implode.root.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Greenman wrote: > > FYI, Micron has made info on the NetFRAME 9201 server (what wcarchive is > made from) available on their web site at: > > http://www.micronpc.com/web/walnutcreek.html Cool! And great work, as usual, DG. Now can we get them to add a FreeBSD plug under "operating systems"???? ;^) -- "Where am I, and what am I doing in this handbasket?" Wes Peters Softweyr LLC http://www.softweyr.com/~softweyr wes@softweyr.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 16:49:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5001415112 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 16:49:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Mon, 3 May 1999 16:49:35 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Oscar Bonilla" , "Michael C. Vergallen" Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , Subject: RE: dos2unix Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 16:49:35 -0700 Message-ID: <000301be95bf$9959bd80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-Reply-To: <19990503174217.A691@fisicc-ufm.edu> Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > people: we're talking about a trivial piece of code. I wrote the > dos2unix and unix2dos utilities in C and would gladly give the code > away with whatever licence suites the FreeBSD project better... > i don't even need to be acknowledged for writing the code. It's sad how many people GPL their code simply because they don't know any better. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 16:58:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw3adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0772F15245 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 16:58:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-16-74.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.16.74]) by mail-gw3adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id SAA01176; Mon, 3 May 1999 18:58:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA09774; Mon, 3 May 1999 18:59:38 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 18:59:37 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: David Schwartz Cc: Oscar Bonilla , "Michael C. Vergallen" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dos2unix Message-ID: <19990503185936.G8709@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990503174217.A691@fisicc-ufm.edu> <000301be95bf$9959bd80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <000301be95bf$9959bd80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to>; from David Schwartz on Mon, May 03, 1999 at 04:49:35PM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 3, 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > people: we're talking about a trivial piece of code. I wrote the > > dos2unix and unix2dos utilities in C and would gladly give the code > > away with whatever licence suites the FreeBSD project better... > > i don't even need to be acknowledged for writing the code. > > It's sad how many people GPL their code simply because they don't know any > better. The truly sad thing is when people GPL their code knowing exactly what they're doing. Ever hear RMS sing? > > DS > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Chris Costello If God had intended Man to program, we would be born with serial I/O ports. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 17: 7:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 699F01566F for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 17:07:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.44]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA24289; Mon, 3 May 1999 19:06:10 -0400 Message-ID: <372E3A59.6709383@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:07:54 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es,en-US,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chris@calldei.com Cc: David Schwartz , Oscar Bonilla , "Michael C. Vergallen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dos2unix References: <19990503174217.A691@fisicc-ufm.edu> <000301be95bf$9959bd80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> <19990503185936.G8709@holly.dyndns.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org One case that actually made me laugh was SCO's linux emulator: the adopted something like the Mozilla license...and they know we emulate linux better ! Pedro. Chris Costello escribió: > On Mon, May 3, 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > people: we're talking about a trivial piece of code. I wrote the > > > dos2unix and unix2dos utilities in C and would gladly give the code > > > away with whatever licence suites the FreeBSD project better... > > > i don't even need to be acknowledged for writing the code. > > > > It's sad how many people GPL their code simply because they don't know any > > better. > > The truly sad thing is when people GPL their code knowing > exactly what they're doing. Ever hear RMS sing? > > > > > DS > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > -- > Chris Costello > If God had intended Man to program, we would be born with serial I/O ports. > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 17:11:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52061557B for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 17:11:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA91919 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 3 May 1999 17:08:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sgk) From: Steve Kargl Message-Id: <199905040008.RAA91919@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Subject: PCWeek article by Anne Chen To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 17:08:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FYI, Anne Chen has written a fairly decent article about FreeBSD in PCWEEK vol. 16(18) p. 67. There are a few misconceptions, but its still good press. -- Steve To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 17:12:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from angel.double-barrel.be (mail.double-barrel.be [194.7.102.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 552C915541 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 17:12:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mvergall@ws3.double-barrel.be) Received: from ws3.double-barrel.be (ws3.double-barrel.be [194.7.102.30]) by angel.double-barrel.be (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA08169; Tue, 4 May 1999 02:11:55 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (mvergall@localhost) by ws3.double-barrel.be (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id CAA05416; Tue, 4 May 1999 02:11:50 +0200 Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 02:11:50 +0200 (CEST) From: "Michael C. Vergallen" To: David Schwartz Cc: Oscar Bonilla , "Michael C. Vergallen" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: dos2unix In-Reply-To: <000301be95bf$9959bd80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org True, but eh now just speaking for myself here ... To me Trivial code sush as that and even filesystem code and all general purpouse stuff who's use is somewhat limited and is below 1000 lines of code should come with all the Free Licences so one can pick whatever one suites better the users needs on more complex works sush as perl one can choose allready between a couple of licences so why not do it for more programs ... I just don't want a certain big company in redmont to use certain code but for the rest I don't care what happens to code and who uses it as long as the autors name and details remain intact and also the names of poeple who fixed the code their details are mentioned. Sometimes I take a package make the chages I need for me to that code and put the code back in the original sites /incoming directory with a small note what changes I made to their code and why...then the authors are free to do with my changes what they want if they want to keep my version okey if they don't like my changes they can delete it..me don't care what happens to it as long as I offered my code back to them because afterall they wrote the original code I was able to modify. But that's me. Michael --- Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, Sportstraat 28 http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/ B 9000 Gent ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/ Belgium tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976 On Mon, 3 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > people: we're talking about a trivial piece of code. I wrote the > > dos2unix and unix2dos utilities in C and would gladly give the code > > away with whatever licence suites the FreeBSD project better... > > i don't even need to be acknowledged for writing the code. > > It's sad how many people GPL their code simply because they don't know any > better. > > DS > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 17:26:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C0B215541 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 17:25:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.44]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA24352; Mon, 3 May 1999 19:24:58 -0400 Message-ID: <372E3EC2.82F91F71@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:26:43 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [es] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: es,en-US,it MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael C. Vergallen" Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dos2unix References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, I don't care if that big company in Redmont takes the code and offers me a product I really like...furthermore, while I understand why many people hate certain monopolic companies, I don't see what free code has to do with it: people have to live on something, and becoming rich out of writting software is fine with me. however, I'm pretty sure that such big cmopanies won't need my help to write such a trivial tool, and that no one with brain would pay for it... Of course I am also speaking for myself here. Pedro. "Michael C. Vergallen" escribió: > True, but eh now just speaking for myself here ... > To me Trivial code sush as that and even filesystem code and all general > purpouse stuff who's use is somewhat limited and is below 1000 lines of > code should come with all the Free Licences so one can pick whatever one > suites better the users needs on more complex works sush as perl one can > choose allready between a couple of licences so why not do it for more > programs ... I just don't want a certain big company in redmont to use > certain code but for the rest I don't care what happens to code and who > uses it as long as the autors name and details remain intact and also the > names of poeple who fixed the code their details are mentioned. Sometimes > I take a package make the chages I need for me to that code and put the > code back in the original sites /incoming directory with a small note what > changes I made to their code and why...then the authors are free to do > with my changes what they want if they want to keep my version okey if > they don't like my changes they can delete it..me don't care what happens > to it as long as I offered my code back to them because afterall they > wrote the original code I was able to modify. But that's me. > > Michael > --- > Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, > Sportstraat 28 http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/ > B 9000 Gent ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/ > Belgium tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976 > > On Mon, 3 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > > people: we're talking about a trivial piece of code. I wrote the > > > dos2unix and unix2dos utilities in C and would gladly give the code > > > away with whatever licence suites the FreeBSD project better... > > > i don't even need to be acknowledged for writing the code. > > > > It's sad how many people GPL their code simply because they don't know any > > better. > > > > DS > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 17:56:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A38014D25 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 17:56:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r23.bfm.org [208.18.213.119]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id UAA16898 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990503195623.0094a480@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:56:23 -0500 To: From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: RE: dos2unix In-Reply-To: <000301be95bf$9959bd80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> References: <19990503174217.A691@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > people: we're talking about a trivial piece of code. I wrote the > dos2unix and unix2dos utilities in C and would gladly give the code > away with whatever licence suites the FreeBSD project better... > i don't even need to be acknowledged for writing the code. I guess I missed the original message here. But we already have such code donated to FreeBSD: cd /usr/ports/textproc/tuc make install man tuc Its licence expressly says that FreeBSD can do with it anything it wants. Cheers, Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 18:12:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw4adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2722156C6 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 18:12:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-16-74.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.16.74]) by mail-gw4adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA26193 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:12:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA10135 for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:12:57 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 20:12:55 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: BSDI dos2bsd/bsd2dos vs. others Message-ID: <19990503201255.A10097@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There seem to be lots of programs out there that convert from DOS to Unix file formats. Many of them have far more features than the utilities I have written. Since dos2bsd/bsd2dos are mentioned in the man page for doscmd, perhaps the utilities I have written can be entered into the base system, also seeing that the BSDI userland comes with them by default. Flames? Comments? -- Chris Costello Your fault, core dumped. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 18:48:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30CD514E7B for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 18:48:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07036; Mon, 3 May 1999 19:47:54 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990503194137.00d3a680@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 19:47:52 -0600 To: chris@calldei.com, David Schwartz From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dos2unix Cc: Oscar Bonilla , "Michael C. Vergallen" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990503185936.G8709@holly.dyndns.org> References: <000301be95bf$9959bd80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> <19990503174217.A691@fisicc-ufm.edu> <000301be95bf$9959bd80$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:59 PM 5/3/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > The truly sad thing is when people GPL their code knowing > exactly what they're doing. Ever hear RMS sing? It was truly an eardrum-shattering experience. After hearing him exude his "free software" song, I spent the rest of the day with a rejoinder running through my head. It went to the tune of "Casey Jones:" Verse: Once upon a time there was an engineer Richard Stallman was his name, we hear He had a problem with anyone Who made money off of software that makes computers run. Chorus: Stallman says: "You gotta share the software" Stallman says: "So give it all to me!" Stallman says: "You won't make a living 'Cause whatever you sell I'll give away for free." (There's more, but that's the basic idea.) --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 19:46:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from angel.double-barrel.be (mail.double-barrel.be [194.7.102.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9DDD14FB1 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 19:46:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mvergall@ws3.double-barrel.be) Received: from ws3.double-barrel.be (ws3.double-barrel.be [194.7.102.30]) by angel.double-barrel.be (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id EAA08284; Tue, 4 May 1999 04:45:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (mvergall@localhost) by ws3.double-barrel.be (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id EAA05568; Tue, 4 May 1999 04:45:33 +0200 Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 04:45:33 +0200 (CEST) From: "Michael C. Vergallen" To: Brett Glass Cc: chris@calldei.com, David Schwartz , Oscar Bonilla , "Michael C. Vergallen" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dos2unix In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990503194137.00d3a680@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yep well ... I think personally RMS's ideas are extreem but neccessary in the software world today... Becuase if poeple like RMS and others where not around the software bussiness would be the Mafia with protection rackets and all. Hell I find some of his ideas still to moderate... but I'm a exteemist and a true anarchist who has his own money so I can afford to be extreem ...it is easy to be extreem when you have the money to bail you out when you get into trouble like I allready have been on three counts of copyright infringements because I did not bother asking someone to publish a certain report on the net ... but my lawyer took care of this and I continue to distribute that document in the public interest and simply when they ask me to pay a fine well I let them ask for a while and eventually pay when it suits me. Michael --- Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, Sportstraat 28 http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/ B 9000 Gent ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/ Belgium tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976 On Mon, 3 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:59 PM 5/3/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > > > The truly sad thing is when people GPL their code knowing > > exactly what they're doing. Ever hear RMS sing? > > It was truly an eardrum-shattering experience. > > After hearing him exude his "free software" song, I spent > the rest of the day with a rejoinder running through my head. > It went to the tune of "Casey Jones:" > > Verse: > > Once upon a time there was an engineer > Richard Stallman was his name, we hear > He had a problem with anyone > Who made money off of software that makes computers run. > > Chorus: > > Stallman says: "You gotta share the software" > Stallman says: "So give it all to me!" > Stallman says: "You won't make a living > 'Cause whatever you sell I'll give away for free." > > (There's more, but that's the basic idea.) > > --Brett Glass > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 19:53:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw3adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF2214DC4 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 19:53:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-16-74.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.16.74]) by mail-gw3adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA08827; Mon, 3 May 1999 21:52:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA10808; Mon, 3 May 1999 21:53:45 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 21:53:43 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: "Michael C. Vergallen" Cc: Brett Glass , chris@calldei.com, David Schwartz , Oscar Bonilla , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dos2unix Message-ID: <19990503215342.D10291@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <4.2.0.37.19990503194137.00d3a680@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Michael C. Vergallen on Tue, May 04, 1999 at 04:45:33AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 3, 1999, Michael C. Vergallen wrote: > Yep well ... I think personally RMS's ideas are extreem but neccessary in Necessary? He wants to force people to use open code. He also pushes that horrible license (which forces people to use open code. Hmm.). I wholeheartedly agree with Brett's song. > the software world today... Becuase if poeple like RMS and others where > not around the software bussiness would be the Mafia with protection > rackets and all. Hell I find some of his ideas still to moderate... > but I'm a exteemist and a true anarchist who has his own money so I can > afford to be extreem ...it is easy to be extreem when you have the money > to bail you out when you get into trouble like I allready have been on > three counts of copyright infringements because I did not bother asking > someone to publish a certain report on the net ... but my lawyer took care > of this and I continue to distribute that document in the public interest > and simply when they ask me to pay a fine well I let them ask for a while > and eventually pay when it suits me. > > Michael > --- > Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, > Sportstraat 28 http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/ > B 9000 Gent ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/ > Belgium tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976 > > On Mon, 3 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > At 06:59 PM 5/3/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > > > > > The truly sad thing is when people GPL their code knowing > > > exactly what they're doing. Ever hear RMS sing? > > > > It was truly an eardrum-shattering experience. > > > > After hearing him exude his "free software" song, I spent > > the rest of the day with a rejoinder running through my head. > > It went to the tune of "Casey Jones:" > > > > Verse: > > > > Once upon a time there was an engineer > > Richard Stallman was his name, we hear > > He had a problem with anyone > > Who made money off of software that makes computers run. > > > > Chorus: > > > > Stallman says: "You gotta share the software" > > Stallman says: "So give it all to me!" > > Stallman says: "You won't make a living > > 'Cause whatever you sell I'll give away for free." > > > > (There's more, but that's the basic idea.) > > > > --Brett Glass > > > > > -- Chris Costello This is line 135 of .tags. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 20:13:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from angel.double-barrel.be (mail.double-barrel.be [194.7.102.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0BEB14FB1 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:13:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mvergall@ws3.double-barrel.be) Received: from ws3.double-barrel.be (ws3.double-barrel.be [194.7.102.30]) by angel.double-barrel.be (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA08301; Tue, 4 May 1999 05:13:06 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (mvergall@localhost) by ws3.double-barrel.be (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA05587; Tue, 4 May 1999 05:12:59 +0200 Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 05:12:59 +0200 (CEST) From: "Michael C. Vergallen" To: chris@calldei.com Cc: "Michael C. Vergallen" , Brett Glass , David Schwartz , Oscar Bonilla , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dos2unix In-Reply-To: <19990503215342.D10291@holly.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yes nesessary ... Look in the ideal world (where everyone could live of a grant or trust fund) his ideas would have been taken up a long time ago... You look at this this way ... if everyone had the money he or she needed and could afford to do what they wanted then his model would be ideal..e.i. everyone working for the greater good and all that ... now that is RMS's situation ... he can basically write his own ticket and has not to worry like most poeple about the where the next meal or rent check is going to come from... Thus because of that he can afford to tell poeple to give the code for free and tell poeple that a copywright licence is shit and why not just give the code away... I do understand that most poeple are not in that situation so they have to sell them selves into something I call slavery most poeple call it a job. That is okey if you have to but I don't ... You see what I mean... if everyone had the same amount of money to do what they really wanted they could be generous and work for free and give their work away... You are looking at the GPL from the way of someone who has to sell it's labour to make a living but in the world RMS lives in he does not have to and so he can be generous... Like if really that Redmont company wanted to they could do the same and the board of directors would not feel a thing...because they made enough money allready to live of for the next 100 years in the same style they live now Michael --- Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, Sportstraat 28 http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/ B 9000 Gent ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/ Belgium tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976 On Mon, 3 May 1999, Chris Costello wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 1999, Michael C. Vergallen wrote: > > Yep well ... I think personally RMS's ideas are extreem but neccessary in > > Necessary? He wants to force people to use open code. He > also pushes that horrible license (which forces people to use > open code. Hmm.). > > I wholeheartedly agree with Brett's song. > > > the software world today... Becuase if poeple like RMS and others where > > not around the software bussiness would be the Mafia with protection > > rackets and all. Hell I find some of his ideas still to moderate... > > but I'm a exteemist and a true anarchist who has his own money so I can > > afford to be extreem ...it is easy to be extreem when you have the money > > to bail you out when you get into trouble like I allready have been on > > three counts of copyright infringements because I did not bother asking > > someone to publish a certain report on the net ... but my lawyer took care > > of this and I continue to distribute that document in the public interest > > and simply when they ask me to pay a fine well I let them ask for a while > > and eventually pay when it suits me. > > > > Michael > > --- > > Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, > > Sportstraat 28 http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/ > > B 9000 Gent ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/ > > Belgium tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976 > > > > On Mon, 3 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > At 06:59 PM 5/3/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > > > > > > > The truly sad thing is when people GPL their code knowing > > > > exactly what they're doing. Ever hear RMS sing? > > > > > > It was truly an eardrum-shattering experience. > > > > > > After hearing him exude his "free software" song, I spent > > > the rest of the day with a rejoinder running through my head. > > > It went to the tune of "Casey Jones:" > > > > > > Verse: > > > > > > Once upon a time there was an engineer > > > Richard Stallman was his name, we hear > > > He had a problem with anyone > > > Who made money off of software that makes computers run. > > > > > > Chorus: > > > > > > Stallman says: "You gotta share the software" > > > Stallman says: "So give it all to me!" > > > Stallman says: "You won't make a living > > > 'Cause whatever you sell I'll give away for free." > > > > > > (There's more, but that's the basic idea.) > > > > > > --Brett Glass > > > > > > > > > > -- > Chris Costello > This is line 135 of .tags. > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 20:15:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AFFE15766; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:15:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from root@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA05495; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905040312.UAA05495@implode.root.com> To: advocacy@freebsd.org Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: press release From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 20:12:45 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FYI, my press release about wcarchive/Micron went out nationally via PRNewswire at 8:49pm EDT. I've already seen it show up at Fidelity Investments for news about Micron Electronics. Cool stuff. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com MICRON ELECTRONICS NETFRAME CHOSEN FOR INTERNET'S BUSIEST SITE San Francisco, CA., May 3, 1999 Walnut Creek CDROM, Inc. and Micron Electronics, Inc. announced today that Walnut Creek CDROM has chosen the Micron NetFRAME 9201 as the next-generation server platform for their hugely popular FTP archive at ftp.cdrom.com. "It's one of a very few Intel-architecture machines with the capability to handle our exceptionally high traffic loads", said David Greenman, Walnut Creek's Systems Manager. "We're very impressed with both the machine's performance and future expansion capabilities. With its 500MHz Intel Pentium-III Xeon CPU, 64bit PCI bus and high speed memory system, combined with the ultra high performance of the FreeBSD Operating System software, we're able to take full advantage of the upcoming gigabit ethernet connection to the Internet backbone." During its first full day of operation, the new NetFRAME 9201 server set a new all-time one day download record of 969GB of files, surpassing the previous record set last year of 873GB/day. Walnut Creek CDROM was founded in 1991 by its current president and owner, Mr. Robert Bruce. Since the beginning, Walnut Creek CDROM has maintained a philosophy of creating superior quality CDROM software products at a reasonable price to the consumer. The company is also the premier CDROM supplier of the popular FreeBSD and Slackware Linux Operating Systems. Walnut Creek CDROM provides these and a vast collection of other software free of charge to Internet users on its FTP site at ftp://ftp.cdrom.com. With more than 250,000 visitors a day that download nearly 1 terabyte (1000 gigabytes) of files, ftp.cdrom.com is widely known as the world's most popular public FTP software archive. For more information about Walnut Creek CDROM and its products, the company can be contacted at (800) 786-9907 (U.S. toll-free), (925) 674-0783 (international), by fax at (925) 674-0821, or by visiting their web site at http://www.cdrom.com. Micron Electronics, Inc. (Nasdaq: MUEI), a recognized industry leader and direct vendor known for its award-winning products and services, develops, manufactures and markets high-performance, competitively priced computing solutions to consumers, small businesses, commercial and public sector buyers. Its superior customer service and tollfree technical support is available to customers 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Micron offers value and convenience through direct sales via the Internet (www.micronpc.com), by phone 800-249-1179 or by fax 208-893-7240. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 20:19:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw1adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw1.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01FF4156B3 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:19:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-18-177.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.18.177]) by mail-gw1adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16597; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:18:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11077; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:18:56 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:18:55 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: "Michael C. Vergallen" Cc: chris@calldei.com, Brett Glass , David Schwartz , Oscar Bonilla , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dos2unix Message-ID: <19990503221854.F10291@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990503215342.D10291@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Michael C. Vergallen on Tue, May 04, 1999 at 05:12:59AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 3, 1999, Michael C. Vergallen wrote: > Yes nesessary ... Look in the ideal world (where everyone could live of a > grant or trust fund) his ideas would have been taken up a long time ago... > You look at this this way ... if everyone had the money he or she needed > and could afford to do what they wanted then his model would be > ideal..e.i. everyone working for the greater good and all that ... now > that is RMS's situation ... he can basically write his own ticket and has > not to worry like most poeple about the where the next meal or rent check > is going to come from... Thus because of that he can afford to tell poeple > to give the code for free and tell poeple that a copywright licence is > shit and why not just give the code away... I do understand that most > poeple are not in that situation so they have to sell them selves into > something I call slavery most poeple call it a job. That is okey if you > have to but I don't ... You see what I mean... if everyone had the same > amount of money to do what they really wanted they could be generous and > work for free and give their work away... You are looking at the GPL from > the way of someone who has to sell it's labour to make a living but in the > world RMS lives in he does not have to and so he can be generous... Like > if really that Redmont company wanted to they could do the same and the > board of directors would not feel a thing...because they made enough money > allready to live of for the next 100 years in the same style they live now The GPL forces you to keep your code open no matter how you look at it. Forcing people to do what he likes through some neato-looking license isn't good. It's bad. Microsoft has nothing to do with this. > > Michael > --- > Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, > Sportstraat 28 http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/ > B 9000 Gent ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/ > Belgium tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976 > > On Mon, 3 May 1999, Chris Costello wrote: > > > On Mon, May 3, 1999, Michael C. Vergallen wrote: > > > Yep well ... I think personally RMS's ideas are extreem but neccessary in > > > > Necessary? He wants to force people to use open code. He > > also pushes that horrible license (which forces people to use > > open code. Hmm.). > > > > I wholeheartedly agree with Brett's song. > > > > > the software world today... Becuase if poeple like RMS and others where > > > not around the software bussiness would be the Mafia with protection > > > rackets and all. Hell I find some of his ideas still to moderate... > > > but I'm a exteemist and a true anarchist who has his own money so I can > > > afford to be extreem ...it is easy to be extreem when you have the money > > > to bail you out when you get into trouble like I allready have been on > > > three counts of copyright infringements because I did not bother asking > > > someone to publish a certain report on the net ... but my lawyer took care > > > of this and I continue to distribute that document in the public interest > > > and simply when they ask me to pay a fine well I let them ask for a while > > > and eventually pay when it suits me. > > > > > > Michael > > > --- > > > Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, > > > Sportstraat 28 http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/ > > > B 9000 Gent ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/ > > > Belgium tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976 > > > > > > On Mon, 3 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > > > > At 06:59 PM 5/3/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > > > > > > > > > The truly sad thing is when people GPL their code knowing > > > > > exactly what they're doing. Ever hear RMS sing? > > > > > > > > It was truly an eardrum-shattering experience. > > > > > > > > After hearing him exude his "free software" song, I spent > > > > the rest of the day with a rejoinder running through my head. > > > > It went to the tune of "Casey Jones:" > > > > > > > > Verse: > > > > > > > > Once upon a time there was an engineer > > > > Richard Stallman was his name, we hear > > > > He had a problem with anyone > > > > Who made money off of software that makes computers run. > > > > > > > > Chorus: > > > > > > > > Stallman says: "You gotta share the software" > > > > Stallman says: "So give it all to me!" > > > > Stallman says: "You won't make a living > > > > 'Cause whatever you sell I'll give away for free." > > > > > > > > (There's more, but that's the basic idea.) > > > > > > > > --Brett Glass > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Chris Costello > > This is line 135 of .tags. > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Chris Costello In God we trust; all else we walk through. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 20:28:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98649156B3 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:28:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.46]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA3341; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:27:55 -0400 Message-ID: <372E69A7.5A93BBCC@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 22:29:44 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael C. Vergallen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dos2unix References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Just for a change, knowing that you are wrong, I'm gonna encourage you with this message I received today ;-) Subject: The "Zen" in Investment Banking > >> An investment banker was at the pier of a small >> coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one >> fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large >> yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on >> the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch >> them. >> >> The Mexican replied, only a little while. >> >> The banker then asked why didn't he stay out longer and >> catch more fish? >> >> The Mexican said he had enough to support his family's >> immediate needs. >> >> The banker then asked, "but what do you do with the rest >> of your time?" >> >> The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, >> play with my children, take siesta with my wife, Maria, >> stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and >> play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life." >> >> The banker scoffed, "I have an MBA and could help >> you. You should spend more time fishing and with the >> proceeds, buy a bigger boat with the proceeds from the >> bigger boat you could buy several boats, eventually you >> would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your >> catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the >> processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would >> control the product, processing and distribution. You would >> need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to >> Mexico City, then LA and eventually NYC where you will run >> your expanding enterprise." >> >> The Mexican fisherman asked, "But, how long will this all >> take?" >> >> To which the American replied, "15-20 years." >> >> "But what then?" >> >> The banker laughed and said that's the best part. "When >> the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your >> company stock to the public and become very rich, you would >> make millions." >> >> >> "Millions.. Then what?" >> >> The banker said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small >> coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a >> little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, >> stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip >> wine and play your guitar with your amigos." >> >> >THIS SHOULD KEEPS THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE!! > Michael C. Vergallen wrote: > Yes nesessary ... Look in the ideal world (where everyone could live of a > grant or trust fund) his ideas would have been taken up a long time ago... > You look at this this way ... if everyone had the money he or she needed > and could afford to do what they wanted then his model would be > ideal..e.i. everyone working for the greater good and all that ... now > that is RMS's situation ... he can basically write his own ticket and has > not to worry like most poeple about the where the next meal or rent check > is going to come from... Thus because of that he can afford to tell poeple > to give the code for free and tell poeple that a copywright licence is > shit and why not just give the code away... I do understand that most > poeple are not in that situation so they have to sell them selves into > something I call slavery most poeple call it a job. That is okey if you > have to but I don't ... You see what I mean... if everyone had the same > amount of money to do what they really wanted they could be generous and > work for free and give their work away... You are looking at the GPL from > the way of someone who has to sell it's labour to make a living but in the > world RMS lives in he does not have to and so he can be generous... Like > if really that Redmont company wanted to they could do the same and the > board of directors would not feel a thing...because they made enough money > allready to live of for the next 100 years in the same style they live now > > Michael > --- > Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, > Sportstraat 28 http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/ > B 9000 Gent ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/ > Belgium tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976 > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 20:41:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw3adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B298914D40 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:41:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-18-177.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.18.177]) by mail-gw3adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15329; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:41:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11249; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:42:22 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:42:22 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI dos2bsd/bsd2dos vs. others Message-ID: <19990503224220.G10291@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990503201255.A10097@holly.dyndns.org> <372E5C4A.51B8F3AA@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <372E5C4A.51B8F3AA@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co>; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Mon, May 03, 1999 at 09:32:42PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 3, 1999, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Is there a dos2unix command in the single UNIX specification? That might > be additional point in favor, however my network went down now :(. > > BTW, have you seen the flags supported by BSDI? We surely want to be > compatible. According to the man pages and my own experiments, there are no flags, except -? > > cheers, > Pedro. > > Chris Costello wrote: > > > There seem to be lots of programs out there that convert from > > DOS to Unix file formats. Many of them have far more features > > than the utilities I have written. Since dos2bsd/bsd2dos are > > mentioned in the man page for doscmd, perhaps the utilities I > > have written can be entered into the base system, also seeing > > that the BSDI userland comes with them by default. > > > > Flames? Comments? > > > > -- > > Chris Costello > > Your fault, core dumped. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Chris Costello Customer: A primitive life form at the bottom of the food chain. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 20:44: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw4adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.54]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BBC6157E7 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:43:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-18-177.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.18.177]) by mail-gw4adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA15995; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:43:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA11270; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:44:44 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Mon, 3 May 1999 22:44:44 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI dos2bsd/bsd2dos vs. others Message-ID: <19990503224443.H10291@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <19990503201255.A10097@holly.dyndns.org> <372E5C4A.51B8F3AA@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <372E5C4A.51B8F3AA@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co>; from Pedro F. Giffuni on Mon, May 03, 1999 at 09:32:42PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, May 3, 1999, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Is there a dos2unix command in the single UNIX specification? That might > be additional point in favor, however my network went down now :(. Oh, and there is no dos2unix command in the single UNIX spec, I just checked. However, if anything, I want to make the command work like the existing "standardized" command, such as what BSDI uses. > > BTW, have you seen the flags supported by BSDI? We surely want to be > compatible. > > cheers, > Pedro. > > Chris Costello wrote: > > > There seem to be lots of programs out there that convert from > > DOS to Unix file formats. Many of them have far more features > > than the utilities I have written. Since dos2bsd/bsd2dos are > > mentioned in the man page for doscmd, perhaps the utilities I > > have written can be entered into the base system, also seeing > > that the BSDI userland comes with them by default. > > > > Flames? Comments? > > > > -- > > Chris Costello > > Your fault, core dumped. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Chris Costello You forgot to do your backup 16 days ago. Tomorrow you'll need that version. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 20:48:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from angel.double-barrel.be (mail.double-barrel.be [194.7.102.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68C13157B4 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:48:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mvergall@ws3.double-barrel.be) Received: from ws3.double-barrel.be (ws3.double-barrel.be [194.7.102.30]) by angel.double-barrel.be (8.9.1b+Sun/8.9.1) with ESMTP id FAA08323; Tue, 4 May 1999 05:47:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from localhost (mvergall@localhost) by ws3.double-barrel.be (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id FAA05604; Tue, 4 May 1999 05:47:37 +0200 Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 05:47:37 +0200 (CEST) From: "Michael C. Vergallen" To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Cc: "Michael C. Vergallen" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dos2unix In-Reply-To: <372E69A7.5A93BBCC@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yep .... but why work your self to a early grave... ( Yes I am from a meditiranian desend ) so to us working is alian.. :-) my great granfather tried it and he told his son it was a experience not to be repeated ... so we didn't bother working more then we had to ...:-) Poeple die from it you know...:-) Mad Mike --- Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, Sportstraat 28 http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/ B 9000 Gent ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/ Belgium tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976 On Mon, 3 May 1999, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > Just for a change, knowing that you are wrong, I'm gonna encourage you with this > message I received today ;-) > > Subject: The "Zen" in Investment Banking > > > > >> An investment banker was at the pier of a small > >> coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one > >> fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large > >> yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on > >> the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch > >> them. > >> > >> The Mexican replied, only a little while. > >> > >> The banker then asked why didn't he stay out longer and > >> catch more fish? > >> > >> The Mexican said he had enough to support his family's > >> immediate needs. > >> > >> The banker then asked, "but what do you do with the rest > >> of your time?" > >> > >> The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, > >> play with my children, take siesta with my wife, Maria, > >> stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and > >> play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life." > >> > >> The banker scoffed, "I have an MBA and could help > >> you. You should spend more time fishing and with the > >> proceeds, buy a bigger boat with the proceeds from the > >> bigger boat you could buy several boats, eventually you > >> would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your > >> catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the > >> processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would > >> control the product, processing and distribution. You would > >> need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to > >> Mexico City, then LA and eventually NYC where you will run > >> your expanding enterprise." > >> > >> The Mexican fisherman asked, "But, how long will this all > >> take?" > >> > >> To which the American replied, "15-20 years." > >> > >> "But what then?" > >> > >> The banker laughed and said that's the best part. "When > >> the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your > >> company stock to the public and become very rich, you would > >> make millions." > >> > >> > >> "Millions.. Then what?" > >> > >> The banker said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small > >> coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a > >> little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, > >> stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip > >> wine and play your guitar with your amigos." > >> > >> > >THIS SHOULD KEEPS THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE!! > > > > > > > Michael C. Vergallen wrote: > > > Yes nesessary ... Look in the ideal world (where everyone could live of a > > grant or trust fund) his ideas would have been taken up a long time ago... > > You look at this this way ... if everyone had the money he or she needed > > and could afford to do what they wanted then his model would be > > ideal..e.i. everyone working for the greater good and all that ... now > > that is RMS's situation ... he can basically write his own ticket and has > > not to worry like most poeple about the where the next meal or rent check > > is going to come from... Thus because of that he can afford to tell poeple > > to give the code for free and tell poeple that a copywright licence is > > shit and why not just give the code away... I do understand that most > > poeple are not in that situation so they have to sell them selves into > > something I call slavery most poeple call it a job. That is okey if you > > have to but I don't ... You see what I mean... if everyone had the same > > amount of money to do what they really wanted they could be generous and > > work for free and give their work away... You are looking at the GPL from > > the way of someone who has to sell it's labour to make a living but in the > > world RMS lives in he does not have to and so he can be generous... Like > > if really that Redmont company wanted to they could do the same and the > > board of directors would not feel a thing...because they made enough money > > allready to live of for the next 100 years in the same style they live now > > > > Michael > > --- > > Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, > > Sportstraat 28 http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/ > > B 9000 Gent ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/ > > Belgium tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976 > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 20:49:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.on.home.com (ha1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com [24.2.9.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6E0B157C2 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:49:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from interlog.com ([24.65.60.52]) by mail.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail v4.00.03 201-229-104) with ESMTP id <19990504034920.DFVZ9723.mail.rdc1.on.home.com@interlog.com> for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 20:49:20 -0700 Message-ID: <372E6D10.3357C729@interlog.com> Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:44:16 -0400 From: Paul Griffith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.7 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Walnut Creek/Micron Makes Yahoo PR NEWSWIRE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/990503/walnut_cre_1.html -- Paul Griffith paulg@interlog.com | Bulls make money. Bears make money. Assume nothing. Expect anything. | Pigs get slaughtered. Sheeps get | sheared and Rabbits get skinned. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 21:20:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FB4E15365 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 21:20:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r12.bfm.org [208.18.213.108]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id AAA01499 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 00:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990503232009.0094d5e0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:20:09 -0500 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: dos2unix In-Reply-To: <19990503215342.D10291@holly.dyndns.org> References: <4.2.0.37.19990503194137.00d3a680@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 21:53 03-05-1999 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > Necessary? He wants to force people to use open code. He >also pushes that horrible license (which forces people to use >open code. Hmm.). Yep, his methods are those of brainwashing and mind control, sigh. Makes you feel guilty if you use BSD style license (or at least tries to make you feel guilty). Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 22: 3:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from umd5.umd.edu (umd5.umd.edu [128.8.10.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0588215122 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:03:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@umd5.umd.edu) Received: from poirot.umd.edu (poirot.umd.edu [128.8.10.129]) by umd5.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA11677; Tue, 4 May 1999 01:03:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by poirot.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id BAA16985; Tue, 4 May 1999 01:03:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: poirot.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 01:03:50 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@poirot.umd.edu To: chris@calldei.com Cc: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSDI dos2bsd/bsd2dos vs. others In-Reply-To: <19990503224443.H10291@holly.dyndns.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 3 May 1999, Chris Costello wrote: > On Mon, May 3, 1999, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > Is there a dos2unix command in the single UNIX specification? That might > > be additional point in favor, however my network went down now :(. > > Oh, and there is no dos2unix command in the single UNIX spec, > I just checked. However, if anything, I want to make the command > work like the existing "standardized" command, such as what BSDI > uses. As close as there is to a standard is probably the program dtox (and xtod) from UnixWare 7. dtox goes from DOS to Unix and xtod goes the other way. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 22:34:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B737914F22 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:34:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08784 for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 23:34:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990503232415.0468ae40@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:26:08 -0600 To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dos2unix In-Reply-To: References: <19990503215342.D10291@holly.dyndns.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:12 AM 5/4/99 +0200, Michael C. Vergallen wrote: >Yes nesessary ... Look in the ideal world (where everyone could live of a >grant or trust fund) his ideas would have been taken up a long time ago... If the world didn't have to deal with trivial things like reality, a whole LOT of things would be different. ;-) --Brett (Who's cutting the "To:" and "Cc:" lists so that everyone doesn't get double copies of the message) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 22:35:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F0361579E for ; Mon, 3 May 1999 22:35:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA08778; Mon, 3 May 1999 23:34:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990503232011.04689d90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Mon, 03 May 1999 23:23:24 -0600 To: "Michael C. Vergallen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dos2unix Cc: chris@calldei.com, David Schwartz , Oscar Bonilla , "Michael C. Vergallen" , "Pedro F. Giffuni" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.37.19990503194137.00d3a680@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:45 AM 5/4/99 +0200, Michael C. Vergallen wrote: >Yep well ... I think personally RMS's ideas are extreem but neccessary in >the software world today... Becuase if poeple like RMS and others where >not around the software bussiness would be the Mafia with protection >rackets and all. I've got to disagree with that. The FSF uses the same "mafia" tactics as Microsoft. It identifies markets, destroys them by dumping product at zero price, and attempts to take them over. That's why GCC is so dominant. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon May 3 23:33:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071441508E; Mon, 3 May 1999 23:32:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA09691; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:42:44 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id PAA38267; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:42:26 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:42:26 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Mike Smith Cc: Nick Hibma , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Hysterical names (was: names of globale variables) Message-ID: <19990504154225.S10134@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199905040143.SAA01330@dingo.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199905040143.SAA01330@dingo.cdrom.com>; from Mike Smith on Mon, May 03, 1999 at 06:43:09PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [following up to -chat] On Monday, 3 May 1999 at 18:43:09 -0700, Mike Smith wrote: >> >> Isn't the choice of the variables names below a bit odd? It crashed my >> machine three times because of a typo (buf instead of buffer) in the >> USB Communications Class Driver. >> >> Wouldn't some more elaborate names be more appropriate to avoid these >> problems? > > "struct buf" is actually a very longstanding BSD tradition. I don't > think we would easily be able to rename it, no. It goes back further than BSD. Here's the definition from a pre-BSD /usr/src/buf.h, probably some of the oldest C code in existence: -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 592 Jan 22 1973 buf.h struct buf { int b_flags; struct buf *b_forw; struct buf *b_back; struct buf *av_forw; struct buf *av_back; int b_dev; int b_wcount; char *b_addr; char *b_blkno; } buf[NBUF]; This is the Third Edition of AT&T UNIX (and no, it doesn't have a copyright notice :-). Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 1:41:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebsd.dk (freebsd.dk [212.242.42.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A501544A for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 01:41:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sos@freebsd.dk) Received: (from sos@localhost) by freebsd.dk (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA21824; Tue, 4 May 1999 10:41:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from sos) From: Soren Schmidt Message-Id: <199905040841.KAA21824@freebsd.dk> Subject: Re: Hysterical names (was: names of globale variables) In-Reply-To: <19990504154225.S10134@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "May 4, 1999 3:42:26 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 10:41:03 +0200 (CEST) Cc: mike@smith.net.au, hibma@skylink.it, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It seems Greg Lehey wrote: > > It goes back further than BSD. Here's the definition from a pre-BSD > /usr/src/buf.h, probably some of the oldest C code in existence: > > -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 592 Jan 22 1973 buf.h > > struct buf { > int b_flags; > struct buf *b_forw; > struct buf *b_back; > struct buf *av_forw; > struct buf *av_back; > int b_dev; > int b_wcount; > char *b_addr; > char *b_blkno; > } buf[NBUF]; I LOVE the simplicity of that though, our one is bloated beyond recognition... -Søren To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 2:19:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B86314DF1 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 02:19:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA10466; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:49:52 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id SAA47993; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:49:52 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:49:51 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Soren Schmidt Cc: mike@smith.net.au, hibma@skylink.it, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hysterical names (was: names of globale variables) Message-ID: <19990504184951.C40359@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990504154225.S10134@freebie.lemis.com> <199905040841.KAA21824@freebsd.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199905040841.KAA21824@freebsd.dk>; from Soren Schmidt on Tue, May 04, 1999 at 10:41:03AM +0200 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 4 May 1999 at 10:41:03 +0200, Soren Schmidt wrote: > It seems Greg Lehey wrote: >> >> It goes back further than BSD. Here's the definition from a pre-BSD >> /usr/src/buf.h, probably some of the oldest C code in existence: >> >> -rw-r--r-- 1 root wheel 592 Jan 22 1973 buf.h >> >> struct buf { >> int b_flags; >> struct buf *b_forw; >> struct buf *b_back; >> struct buf *av_forw; >> struct buf *av_back; >> int b_dev; >> int b_wcount; >> char *b_addr; >> char *b_blkno; >> } buf[NBUF]; > > I LOVE the simplicity of that though, our one is bloated beyond > recognition... Ah, the good old days. Note, of course, that here the struct bufs are statically allocated. But it did have its advantages: $ BLOCKSIZE=1024 du -s /S/pdp11/Third-Edition/ /usr/src/sys/dev/vinum/ 220 /S/pdp11/Third-Edition/ 375 /usr/src/sys/dev/vinum/ Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 3: 3:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tuminfo2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de (tuminfo2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de [131.159.0.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3EA14D0B for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 03:02:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lichtena@informatik.tu-muenchen.de) Received: from sunhalle25.informatik.tu-muenchen.de ([131.159.4.190] EHLO in.tum.de ident: IDENT-NONSENSE [port 36829]) by tuminfo2.informatik.tu-muenchen.de with ESMTP id <110588-224>; Tue, 4 May 1999 12:02:30 +0000 Message-ID: <372EC5AA.1AA5952C@in.tum.de> Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:02:18 +0200 From: Stephan Lichtenauer Reply-To: stephan.lichtenauer@v-vm.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; U; SunOS 5.7 sun4u) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: freebsd with microkernel?? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org just being cursious but... ...is it imaginable that a future FreeBSD could be microkernel-based (eg look at Flux/OSKit) and that it could allow some other OS-services running at the same time (remember IBMs "personality" concept that was planned for WorkplaceOS where OS/2, NT, AIX etc. should be integrated seamlessly with running on a new kernel architecture?) Wouldn't (assuming someone(s) would take a microkernel with a BSD-compatible license and write a FreeBSD "personality" on top of it) that improve portability and perhaps compatibility to additional operating systems if there are people that are interested in writing other "personalities", being not only emulations that have to struggle with an underlying OS that was not intended to serve for that function (eg. a "native" Win32-environment and not "only" Win32-exes that have to be started with a command "wine" and that are running on a X-desktop, more seamless like WinOS/2)?? I was just thinking about enhancing FreeBSDs capabilities and perhaps reputation that way because so it could have at least two (new) great advantages over Linux (improved portability and "compatibility", also perhaps through a Linux-personality replacing the Linux-emulation that again has to run on top of FreeBSD) and of course over all the other Un*x and PC-OS. I am really impressed by the knowledge, organisation and love that is put into FreeBSD so I just thought... Stephan Lichtenauer ps pls CC to me if possible... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 8:53:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ren.detir.qld.gov.au (ns.detir.qld.gov.au [203.46.81.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CBFB14F7B for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 08:53:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au) Received: by ren.detir.qld.gov.au; id BAA01723; Wed, 5 May 1999 01:53:07 +1000 (EST) Received: from ogre.detir.qld.gov.au(167.123.8.3) by ren.detir.qld.gov.au via smap (4.1) id xma001714; Wed, 5 May 99 01:52:49 +1000 Received: from atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (atlas.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.8.9]) by ogre.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA18565 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 01:52:46 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (nymph.detir.qld.gov.au [167.123.10.10]) by atlas.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA23247 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 01:52:43 +1000 (EST) Received: from nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (localhost.detir.qld.gov.au [127.0.0.1]) by nymph.detir.qld.gov.au (8.8.8/8.8.7) with ESMTP id BAA11924; Wed, 5 May 1999 01:52:42 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from syssgm@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au) Message-Id: <199905041552.BAA11924@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: syssgm@detir.qld.gov.au Subject: Personal Unix Source Code License Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 01:52:42 +1000 From: Stephen McKay Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi! I'm hoping some of the Personal Unix Source Code Licensees are on this list. If not, then maybe more of you should buy one. :-) Check out http://www.sco.com/offers/ancient_unix.html if none of this makes any sense. Then try http://www.mckusick.com/csrg/index.html to find out why I want the license. I just wanted to get a few opinions before I signed anything. Is anybody worried about "taint"? Back when USL was out to squash BSD, AT&T claimed that just seeing the code infected your mind with their intellectual property, and they wanted to put your brain in quarantine! The long and boring SCO agreement seems pretty tame, but I don't read these things often and might have missed something. I've had a few giggles over how I would reply if SCO ever exercised their right to know the "location, type and serial number of the DESIGNATED CPU". And the perpetually renewing 1 year agreements seem odd but harmless, unless SCO get bought out, I suppose. So, the real worry is that getting the Official (but Ancient) Unix Source might in some way inhibit my ability to engage in current day free Unix-like software development. Is it just the stuff they put in my water, or is there a valid reason for concern? Stephen. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 9:44:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8FC415781 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:44:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA27629; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:43:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd027507; Tue May 4 09:43:52 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA07952; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:42:23 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905041642.JAA07952@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dos2unix To: mvergall@mail.double-barrel.be (Michael C. Vergallen) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:42:23 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chris@calldei.com, mvergall@mail.double-barrel.be, brett@lariat.org, davids@webmaster.com, obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu, pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Michael C. Vergallen" at May 4, 99 05:12:59 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Yes nesessary ... Look in the ideal world (where everyone could live of a > grant or trust fund) his ideas would have been taken up a long time ago... Uh, in this "ideal world", who will grow the food? Or will we all be eating "dollar salad" with ranch dressing on it? Uh, in this "ideal world", who will make ranch dressing? Come to that, who will pulp the wood and print the "dollar salad"? > You look at this this way ... if everyone had the money he or she needed > and could afford to do what they wanted then his model would be > ideal..e.i. everyone working for the greater good and all that ... I guess we could give all the non-leisure jobs to migrant workers? Hey! We could even tax their earnings! That could be how we get all the money each of us needs to enable us to afford to do what we wanted! > now that is RMS's situation ... he can basically write his own ticket > and has not to worry like most poeple about the where the next meal > or rent check is going to come from... Thus because of that he can > afford to tell poeple to give the code for free and tell poeple that > a copywright licence is shit and why not just give the code away... So basically, you are saying that he is a bourgeoise dilettante, who, like many bourgeoise dilettantes, is at liberty to advocate whatever broken socialist economic model he wants, because of his position derived from the economic model he condemns. I guess you are "free" to hold that opinion... > You see what I mean... if everyone had the same amount of money to > do what they really wanted they could be generous and work for free > and give their work away... This is why, in the U.S., where we have the highest per capita income of nearly all nations, we are all so *incredibly* physically fit. We toil happily in the fields, donating our physical labor, since once we make more that the minimum wage times 52 week time 40 hours worth of money, everything after that is just gravy. I think the rest of the world needs to get in on this bounty... I hereby declare that sand is money. -- Somone, please buy this kid a copy of "Atlas Shrugged", and, after he has read it, buy him a copy of the antidote as well; we can't go around turning socialists into objectivists, or we'd be cutting off our noses to spite our faces. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 9:46:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B2ED15781 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:46:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA15144; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:46:08 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpd015069; Tue May 4 09:46:06 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA08175; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:46:03 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905041646.JAA08175@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dos2unix To: zen@buddhist.com (G. Adam Stanislav) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 16:46:03 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990503232009.0094d5e0@mail.bfm.org> from "G. Adam Stanislav" at May 3, 99 11:20:09 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Necessary? He wants to force people to use open code. He > >also pushes that horrible license (which forces people to use > >open code. Hmm.). > > Yep, his methods are those of brainwashing and mind control, sigh. Makes > you feel guilty if you use BSD style license (or at least tries to make you > feel guilty). Quick! Call the Lone Gunmen! Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 9:51:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop01.globecomm.net (pop01.globecomm.net [206.253.129.185]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56C4314BEC for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:51:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r24.bfm.org [208.18.213.120]) by pop01.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id MAA25386; Tue, 4 May 1999 12:50:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990504115059.00951640@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 11:50:59 -0500 To: Terry Lambert From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: dos2unix Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199905041646.JAA08175@usr02.primenet.com> References: <3.0.6.32.19990503232009.0094d5e0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:46 04-05-1999 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: >> Yep, his methods are those of brainwashing and mind control, sigh. Makes >> you feel guilty if you use BSD style license (or at least tries to make you >> feel guilty). > >Quick! Call the Lone Gunmen! Nah, there are better ways of dealing with brainwashing. :-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 9:52:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from assurance.rstcorp.com (assurance.rstcorp.com [206.29.49.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEE0C15800 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 09:52:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vshah@rstcorp.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by assurance.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA14885; Tue, 4 May 1999 12:53:50 -0400 Received: from sandbox.rstcorp.com(206.29.49.63) by assurance.rstcorp.com via smap (V2.0) id xma014879; Tue, 4 May 99 16:53:12 GMT Received: from jabberwock.rstcorp.com (jabberwock [206.29.49.98]) by sandbox.rstcorp.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA24599; Tue, 4 May 1999 12:51:38 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from vshah@localhost) by jabberwock.rstcorp.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA23567; Tue, 4 May 1999 12:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 12:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199905041651.MAA23567@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> From: "Viren R. Shah" To: Steve Kargl Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re:PCWeek article by Anne Chen In-Reply-To: <199905040008.RAA91919@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <199905040008.RAA91919@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: "Viren R. Shah" X-Face: )~y+U*K:yzjz{q<5lzpI_SVef'U.])9g[C9`1N@]u3,MHY7f*l7C)[_NjM4y4K8$uIUh|\u (K&&HS6,M!61&GMTk'mqmB/Qg]]X}"?TzsFl]"2v!bl8']dma.:^IY^a[lbOI>U:b<~FyK3q-p{HmZ mn~g.`~BE!5{2D:}Yi+\_KkWe?XaHj9$ko1k8iKLYv5*_2c8"G=?Up[}hn+7RNM(bzBZ_wWk6!Pf&B ?3Tcm7M7B~W%K/I0aX3]*=jP?aM]H6HBPT`oLk+0n^_;N\2\%|Rhy;p}34Q.jEsM\qtnxcm;ag%Nq Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >>>>> "Steve" == Steve Kargl writes: Steve> FYI, Steve> Anne Chen has written a fairly decent article about Steve> FreeBSD in PCWEEK vol. 16(18) p. 67. http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,400844,00.html Viren -- Viren R. Shah | Everyone was born right-handed. viren@rstcorp.com | Only the greatest overcome it. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 10:44:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gvr.gvr.org (gvr.gvr.org [194.151.74.97]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8C914F07 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 10:44:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from guido@gvr.org) Received: by gvr.gvr.org (Postfix, from userid 657) id EAD2A5AFA; Tue, 4 May 1999 19:44:49 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <19990504194449.A24041@gvr.org> Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 19:44:49 +0200 From: Guido van Rooij To: Ollivier Robert , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: USENIX: which hotel? References: <19990430090733.A80561@freebie.lemis.com> <19990430075618.A88013@keltia.freenix.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: <19990430075618.A88013@keltia.freenix.fr>; from Ollivier Robert on Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 07:56:18AM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Apr 30, 1999 at 07:56:18AM +0200, Ollivier Robert wrote: > According to Greg Lehey: > > I see that there are two different hotels associated with USENIX this > > year. Where are people planning to stay? > > We -- 3 frenchies -- will be at the DoubleTree, being lazy, we took the > conference's hotel :-) > Ill be at the Monterey Hotel. > Ollivier, who had a wonderful time last year... Me too. See you all again his year! -Guido To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 14:21:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF89714C8E for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:21:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.42]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA9813; Tue, 4 May 1999 16:20:44 -0400 Message-ID: <372F5A4A.E09421DB@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 15:36:27 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Michael C. Vergallen" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dos2unix References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ohh...you didn't read the hidden message there: Banker with MBA = Bill G. Mexican fisherman= programmer (lazy by nature :) Actually the Fisherman can choose to live his life, or follow the Banker's way. If the story had continued, they would have commented about Richard The Savior (RTS), which diagnostics that since fish come from the sea, and the sea belongs to everyone, the must be freely distributed. As a result all the fish caught be RTS and his followers, will be labelled with the "Fish Public License FPL" and returned to the sea (for public benefit of course). This license states that FPL'd fish and their derivative work can not be sold, only distributed...in a few years when the non FPL'd fishes have exhausted, neither Bill or the fisherman will have a choice. And BTW.... I am also a meditarranean descendant :-). cheers, Pedro. Michael C. Vergallen wrote: > yep .... but why work your self to a early grave... ( Yes I am from a > meditiranian desend ) so to us working is alian.. :-) my great granfather > tried it and he told his son it was a experience not to be repeated ... > so we didn't bother working more then we had to ...:-) Poeple die from it > you know...:-) > > Mad Mike > > --- > Michael C. Vergallen A.k.A. Mad Mike, > Sportstraat 28 http://www.double-barrel.be/mvergall/ > B 9000 Gent ftp://ftp.double-barrel.be/pub/linux/ > Belgium tel : 32-9-2227764 Fax : 32-9-2224976 > > On Mon, 3 May 1999, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: > > > Just for a change, knowing that you are wrong, I'm gonna encourage you with this > > message I received today ;-) > > > > Subject: The "Zen" in Investment Banking > > > > > > > >> An investment banker was at the pier of a small > > >> coastal Mexican village when a small boat with just one > > >> fisherman docked. Inside the small boat were several large > > >> yellow fin tuna. The American complimented the Mexican on > > >> the quality of his fish and asked how long it took to catch > > >> them. > > >> > > >> The Mexican replied, only a little while. > > >> > > >> The banker then asked why didn't he stay out longer and > > >> catch more fish? > > >> > > >> The Mexican said he had enough to support his family's > > >> immediate needs. > > >> > > >> The banker then asked, "but what do you do with the rest > > >> of your time?" > > >> > > >> The Mexican fisherman said, "I sleep late, fish a little, > > >> play with my children, take siesta with my wife, Maria, > > >> stroll into the village each evening where I sip wine and > > >> play guitar with my amigos, I have a full and busy life." > > >> > > >> The banker scoffed, "I have an MBA and could help > > >> you. You should spend more time fishing and with the > > >> proceeds, buy a bigger boat with the proceeds from the > > >> bigger boat you could buy several boats, eventually you > > >> would have a fleet of fishing boats. Instead of selling your > > >> catch to a middleman you would sell directly to the > > >> processor, eventually opening your own cannery. You would > > >> control the product, processing and distribution. You would > > >> need to leave this small coastal fishing village and move to > > >> Mexico City, then LA and eventually NYC where you will run > > >> your expanding enterprise." > > >> > > >> The Mexican fisherman asked, "But, how long will this all > > >> take?" > > >> > > >> To which the American replied, "15-20 years." > > >> > > >> "But what then?" > > >> > > >> The banker laughed and said that's the best part. "When > > >> the time is right you would announce an IPO and sell your > > >> company stock to the public and become very rich, you would > > >> make millions." > > >> > > >> > > >> "Millions.. Then what?" > > >> > > >> The banker said, "Then you would retire. Move to a small > > >> coastal fishing village where you would sleep late, fish a > > >> little, play with your kids, take siesta with your wife, > > >> stroll to the village in the evenings where you could sip > > >> wine and play your guitar with your amigos." > > >> > > >> > > >THIS SHOULD KEEPS THINGS IN PERSPECTIVE!! > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 14:36:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B622C1501A for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 14:36:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA14946; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:35:48 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990504120830.046e2550@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 12:09:39 -0600 To: "G. Adam Stanislav" , Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dos2unix Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990504115059.00951640@mail.bfm.org> References: <199905041646.JAA08175@usr02.primenet.com> <3.0.6.32.19990503232009.0094d5e0@mail.bfm.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:50 AM 5/4/99 -0500, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > Nah, there are better ways of dealing with brainwashing. :-) Yes -- such as following it with a spin cycle. A wringer is also helpful. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 15:39:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39EF14E62 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:39:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA15745; Tue, 4 May 1999 16:39:24 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990504163818.045fc3d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 16:39:10 -0600 To: "Pedro F. Giffuni" , "Michael C. Vergallen" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dos2unix Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <372F5A4A.E09421DB@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:36 PM 5/4/99 -0500, Pedro F. Giffuni wrote: >Actually the Fisherman can choose to live his life, or follow the Banker's way. If >the story had continued, they would have commented about Richard The Savior (RTS), >which diagnostics that since fish come from the sea, and the sea belongs to everyone, >the must be freely distributed. And walks across the water, no doubt. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 15:49: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2132E14E6C for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 15:48:52 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA17311; Tue, 4 May 1999 18:48:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 18:48:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: Doug White Cc: Fadi Sodah , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: ICMP-attack In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org moving to -chat just 'cuz On Tue, 4 May 1999, Doug White wrote: > On Mon, 3 May 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: > > > DOug, that actually won't work, the only way to make smurfs useless is to > > get enough bandwidth to handle the attack, or have your upstream filter > > for you, the only thing thios solves is DoS on the local net, but any > > communication in or out the gateway is still going to be impossible. > > Er? If you filter ICMP at your router, the pings (or whatever) can't > reach their intended target. > > If you want to completely foil smurfs on your FreeBSD boxen, set sysctl > net.inet.icmp.bmcastecho=0. > yes, but the point of a smurf attack to is saturate a network or cripple a router, unfortunately more times than not, smurf attacks cripple routers(especially ones filtering those icmps), having dealt with smurfs more than most, I've seen it happen many a time. and yes you can avoid being a "smurf amplifier" by not responding to braodcast pings. blocking icmp at the host level is still not going to help at all > > Now if you do this for icmp going out, it will keep people from launching > > attacks from your network *but* ICMP is a useful protocol, as I found out > > when I blocked icmp, some routers need to tell machines to send smaller > > packets , and will send messages to that effect using ICMP, if you are > > running a website, this is especially true. > > Yeah, it break MTU Discovery and other actually useful bits. The rule > could be more detailed. > true, I found out to my chagrin that MTU discovery didn;t work and was causing problems when I blocked all icmp. Most people miss the point of icmp, its not just for ping or traceroute. > Doug White > Internet: dwhite@resnet.uoregon.edu | FreeBSD: The Power to Serve > http://gladstone.uoregon.edu/~dwhite | www.freebsd.org > ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 17:42:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (f227.hotmail.com [207.82.251.118]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 26F0D1507B for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 17:42:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from slasher_troy@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 31217 invoked by uid 0); 5 May 1999 00:42:24 -0000 Message-ID: <19990505004224.31216.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 131.181.127.42 by wy1lg.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 04 May 1999 17:42:21 PDT X-Originating-IP: [131.181.127.42] From: "troy b" To: tcbwaf@eGroups.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, evilone@beer.tj Subject: Fwd: Fw: FW: [Fwd: Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!] Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 17:42:21 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From: "Andrew Hutchins" >To: slasher_troy@hotmail.com, flutterby@quicknet.com.au, >melfie@hotmail.com, stepsynik@hotmail.com, emme24@hotmail.com >Subject: Fwd: Fw: FW: [Fwd: Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their >cold!!!!!!] >Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:29:58 EST > > > >>From: "Hutchins" >>To: , >>Subject: Fw: FW: [Fwd: Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!] >>Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 15:34:44 +1000 >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: Lauren Hodgeman >>To: KeG3o@hotmail.com >>Cc: hutch@powerup.com.au ; wilkie@dbworld.net.au >> >>Date: Monday, May 03, 1999 11:52 AM >>Subject: Fwd: FW: [Fwd: Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!] >> >> >> > >> > >> >>From: Jayne Randall >> >>To: Bek , cowby , Dave >>, dave collins >>, "Dianne Lambert¶" >>, Dianne Randall >>, Francesca Bell >>, Jody >>, Kym , Lauren >>Hodgeman , Melinda , >>Sacha , Sarah >>, tim cathro >>, Tim Chapman >> >> >>Subject: Fwd: FW: [Fwd: Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their >>cold!!!!!!] >> >>Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1999 21:18:10 +0930 >> >> >> >>More beer for me, more beer for you! >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>From: Brenton Bauer [mailto:buzz@webscene.com.au] >> >>Sent: Monday, 26 April 1999 6:55 >> >>To: Craig Bates; Matt Perriman; Andrew Wroniak; Gareth Thompson; >>Melanie >> >>Grant >> >>Subject: Fw: [Fwd: Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!] >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >> >>From: Darren Smart >> >>To: Nolan, Leanne - NOLLY001 ; Derek >> >>Ritchie >> >>; Damien Garth Jackaman >> >>; Don Giovanni Ricci ; >> >>Colin >> >>Barber ; Brenton Bauer ; >> >>Alison Reid ; Miriam McKone ; >> >>vmoorman@audit.sa.gov.au ; >> >>duncan.treloar@clc.org.au >> >>Date: Wednesday, 28 April 1999 6:39 >> >>Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!] >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 20:48:23 -0500 >> >> >>From: tim johnson >> >> >>Reply-To: cheeka@execpc.com >> >> >>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en]C-EXECPC-404 (Win95; U) >> >> >>To: ", John & Lyn Pierce" , >> >> >> "20madguys@usa.net" <20madguys@usa.net>, >> >> >> "afeldstein@mcn.net" , >> >> >> "ALawson453@aol.com" , >> >> >> Alden & Associates , >> >> >> "avissers@execpc.com" , azober >> >> >, >> >> >> Barrett Amiss , Ben Weinstein >> >> >, >> >> >> "Bevilacq12@aol.com" , >> >> >> "bhob@genie.com" , >> >> >> "Bob Walker Jr." , >> >> >> bolzoni giorgio , >> >> >> Bruce Singer , buysell >> >> >, >> >> >> Carole Wheeler , >> >> >> "Charles_Kochman@dccomics.com" >>, >> >> >> "CRE612@aol.com" , >> >> >> Darren Smart , >> >> >> Dave Kulikowski , dcomadmail >> >> >, >> >> >> "dfrit2@jcpenney.com" , >> >> >> Dick Hanchette , Doug Gilford >>, >> >> >> "ebrodsky@learningco.com" , >> >> >> emerson , >> >> >> "Fazio, Mike" , >> >> >> First Choice Mortgage , >> >> >> Gary Johnson , >> >> >> Gary Kritzberg , >> >> >> Grant Geissman , GregL2 >> >>, >> >> >> "groofan@execpc.com" , >> >> >> "Groshek, Joseph B (MED)" >>, >> >> >> "hobie@execpc.com" , >> >> >> Howard Pritchartt , >> >> >> Ilana Rudnik , Jeff Smith >> >>, >> >> >> Jason Levine , Jerry Moore >> >>, >> >> >> John Hett , >> >> >> "johnsta@asaka.ne.jp" , >> >> >> Keith Trivitt , >> >> >> "Kenneth R. Shapiro" , >> >> >> "KingPins77@aol.com" , >> >> >> "kjkern@execpc.com" , >> >> >> Leigh Harrison , >> >> >> "longhorne@pacificcoast.net" , >> >> >> "mad@man.pp.sci.fi" , >> >> >> "mad_leigh@one.net.au" , >> >> >> "madcellar@aol.com" , >> >> >> "maddening@netzero.net" , >> >> >> Manu Parssinen , >> >> >> "markomics@aol.com" , me , >> >> >> Michael Skinner , Mike Lerner >>, >> >> >> Mike Slaubaugh , "MRTMAJ@aol.com" >> >>, >> >> >> "Nick_Meglin@dccomics.com" , >> >> >> "NYRROOKIE@aol.com" , >> >> >> Pascal PERNET , >> >> >> Pat Militzer , >> >> >> "pete.stich@hksystems.com" , >> >> >> "pvissers@csd.uwm.edu" , >> >> >> "R. Swift" , Rachel Kaufman >>, >> >> >> "Raymond Roginski,sr." , >> >> >> Richard Landivar , >> >> >> "RLCOOVER@aol.com" , >> >> >> "Robrayjohn@aol.com" , >> >> >> Roland Coover , >> >> >> "ron@studio3d.com" , >> >> >> S & R Nathan , >> >> >> "schwoerb@csd.uwm.edu" , >> >> >> Shirley Zaitsoff , >> >> >> "shooks@execpc.com" , siteshop >> >> >, >> >> >> sknaster , >> >> >> Steve Black , >> >> >> "steve.black@cableinet.co.uk" , >> >> >> Torsten Latussek >>, >> >> >> Travis Hutto , "trpech@aol.com" >> >>, >> >> >> "wirth@execpc.com" >> >> >>Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!] >> >> >>X-DPOP: DPOP Version 2.4c >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>From: MolSchmidt@aol.com >> >> >>Received: from c.mx.execpc.com (c.mx.execpc.com [169.207.3.102]) >> >> >> by core1.mx.execpc.com (8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA23790; >> >> >> Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:18:02 -0500 (CDT) >> >> >>Return-Path: >> >> >>Received: from imo18.mx.aol.com (imo18.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.8]) >> >> >> by c.mx.execpc.com (8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA25639; >> >> >> Mon, 26 Apr 1999 23:22:14 -0500 (CDT) >> >> >>Received: from MolSchmidt@aol.com (14450) >> >> >> by imo18.mx.aol.com (IMOv20) id 9YJGa28009; >> >> >> Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:56:30 -0400 (EDT) >> >> >>Message-ID: <61a5caca.24567cfa@aol.com> >> >> >>Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1999 22:37:46 EDT >> >> >>Subject: Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!! >> >> >>To: tony@fuszion.com, Mojey1@aol.com, rick@fuszion.com, >> >> >> pstockhausen@ellermedia.com, white@muhs.edu, >>DGNJ54A@prodigy.com, >> >> >> AmyTalsky@aol.com, sara_napierala@ed.gov, Magody@aol.com, >> >> >> Worgull@hotmail.com, kmpbyrne@execpc.com, >>joecher@earthlink.net, >> >> >> tzanoni@pop.valueweb.net, MONDAYGC@aol.com, >>Amy681502@aol.com, >> >> >> HRBROCKMAN@aol.com, bdr204@anima.nums.nwu.edu, >> >> >> jennifer.horning@midata.com, Kathleen.Fletcher@mail.va.gov, >> >> >> astuckey@carlson.com, dherbert@ivm-inc.com, >> >> >> Therese.Stockhausen@amermsx.med.ge.com, >>llogan@beatricefoods.com, >> >> >> AnnMonday@aol.com, vkasun@marktravel.com, steph@wrkr.com, >> >> >> cheeka@execpc.com, MikeMonday@aol.com >> >> >>MIME-Version: 1.0 >> >> >>Content-Type: multipart/mixed; >>boundary="part1_61a5caca.24567cfa_boundary" >> >> >>X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 16-bit for Windows sub 58 >> >> >>Reply-To: MolSchmidt@aol.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Return-Path: >> >> >>Received: from rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (rly-zb01.mail.aol.com >>[172.31.41.1]) >> >>by >> >> >> air-zb03.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:11:35 >> >> >> -0400 >> >> >>Received: from smtp1.mindspring.com (smtp1.mindspring.com >>[207.69.200.31]) >> >> >> by rly-zb01.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) >> >> >> with ESMTP id PAA15953; >> >> >> Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:11:14 -0400 (EDT) >> >> >>Received: from packard-bell (pool-207-205-140-140.rvdl.grid.net >> >> >> [207.205.140.140]) >> >> >> by smtp1.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA10669; >> >> >> Sun, 25 Apr 1999 15:10:59 -0400 (EDT) >> >> >>Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990424201750.0068d76c@pop.mindspring.com> >> >> >>X-Sender: kthomas428@pop.mindspring.com >> >> >>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) >> >> >>Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 20:17:50 -0500 >> >> >>To: molschmidt@aol.com, fanstein@aol.com, STEETZ@webtv.net, >> >> >> robbrutto@aol.com, >> >> >> jadkot2@aol.com >> >> >>From: Karen Thomas >> >> >>Subject: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!! >> >> >>Mime-Version: 1.0 >> >> >>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >>Reply-To: kthomas428@mindspring.com >> >> >>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> >> >> >> >>>Return-Path: >> >> >>>X-Sender: pretzelman@pop.mindspring.com >> >> >>>Date: Sat, 24 Apr 1999 09:47:14 -0500 >> >> >>>To: dohoneys@execpc.com, cathlene@inxpress.net, >>arcticdogs@hotmail.com, >> >> >>> jgrinker@midwest-express.com, dennis.heusdens@gte.net, >> >> >>> KThomas428 , muse@nconnect.net, >> >> >>> hoops1004@webtv.net >> >> >>>From: Lauren Wetzel >> >> >>>Subject: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!! >> >> >>> >> >> >>>>Return-Path: >> >> >>>>Date: Sun, 18 Apr 1999 09:53:26 -0500 >> >> >>>>From: Brenda Hicks-Sorensen or Scott Sorensen >> >> >> >>>>Reply-To: scotbren@execpc.com >> >> >>>>To: dayvan@execpc.com >> >> >>>>CC: pretzelman@mindspring.com, sfreriks@excel.net, >> >>thegukichs@netscape.net, >> >> >>>> busted@execpc.com, Rob Fischer >>, >> >> >>>> Rhonda Hagen , mikec@jefnet.com, >> >> >>>> bergman@execpc.com, titan.properties@usa.net, >> >>llund61@nconnect.net, >> >> >>>> Amy Hicks >> >> >>>>Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Fwd: [Fwd: Fw: Beers, drinkem while their >> >> >>cold!!!!!!1]]] >> >> >>>>Content-Disposition: inline >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>Received: from c.mx.execpc.com (c.mx.execpc.com [169.207.3.102]) >> >> >>>> by core1.mx.execpc.com (8.9.1a) with ESMTP id XAA19357; >> >> >>>> Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:01:00 -0500 (CDT) >> >> >>>>Return-Path: >> >> >>>>Received: from ns.hnet.net (root@ns.hnet.net [156.46.108.2]) >> >> >>>> by c.mx.execpc.com (8.8.8) with ESMTP id XAA07077; >> >> >>>> Sat, 17 Apr 1999 23:04:59 -0500 (CDT) >> >> >>>>Received: from Bill (d137.hnet.net [156.46.108.137]) >> >> >>>> by ns.hnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA28638; >> >> >>>> Sat, 17 Apr 1999 22:59:56 -0500 (CDT) >> >> >>>>Message-ID: <37195892.1E54@hnet.net> >> >> >>>>Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 22:59:14 -0500 >> >> >>>>From: Bill Rutten >> >> >>>>Reply-To: rudy@hnet.net >> >> >>>>X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) >> >> >>>>MIME-Version: 1.0 >> >> >>>>To: Andrews >> >> >>>>CC: Sorenson , Schwitz , >> >> >>>> Sawyer , Rob Lloyd >>, >> >> >>>> Rettler , Paul Pokorski >> >>, >> >> >>>> Mike Rindt , Mike Hartwell >>, >> >> >>>> Dehring , Corsi , >> >> >>>> Cathy Rutten , >> >> >>>> Brian Scharinger >> >> >>>>Subject: [Fwd: Fwd: [Fwd: Fw: Beers, drinkem while their >>cold!!!!!!1]] >> >> >>>>Content-Type: message/rfc822 >> >> >>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> >>>>Content-Disposition: inline >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>Received: from tigris.netnet.net (tigris.netnet.net >>[198.70.64.210]) >> >> >>>> by ns.hnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA24297 >> >> >>>> for ; Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:45:29 -0500 (CDT) >> >> >>>>Received: from dagrafs (pul-u01a-140.netnet.net [206.40.104.143]) >> >> >>>> by tigris.netnet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA10374; >> >> >>>> Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:45:51 -0500 >> >> >>>>Date: Sat, 17 Apr 1999 21:45:51 -0500 >> >> >>>>Message-Id: <199904180245.VAA10374@tigris.netnet.net> >> >> >>>>X-Sender: dagrafs@netnet.net >> >> >>>>X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 >> >> >>>>Mime-Version: 1.0 >> >> >>>>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >>>>To: abautz@baird.com, rudy@hnet.net, robert.burke11@gte.net, >> >> >>>> ribbles@weasler.com, skranum@chorus.net >> >> >>>>From: David Graf >> >> >>>>Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: Fw: Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!1] >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>>>Return-Path: >> >> >>>>>Date: 16 Apr 99 12:31:14 America/Fort_Wayne >> >> >>>>>From: rodney dubois >> >> >>>>>To: USER938722@AOL.COM >> >> >>>>>Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: Fw: Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!1] >> >> >>>>>CC: DVANEREM@AOL.COM, TBAIER@AOL.COM, GBNRC@AOL.COM, >> >>BSTANTON46@AOL.COM, >> >> >>>>> JENGEL1931@AOL.COM, BNOOYEN@AOL.COM, DNOOYEN@AOL.COM >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>____________________________________________________________________ >> >> >>>>>Get free e-mail and a permanent address at >> >>http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 >> >> >>>>>Received: from imo28.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.72] by mx04 via mtad >>(2.6) >> >> >>>>> with ESMTP id 655DDPceG0061M04; Fri, 16 Apr 1999 02:04:33 GMT >> >> >>>>>Received: from DANEN911@aol.com >> >> >>>>> by imo28.mx.aol.com (IMOv20.11) id mFRVa03717; >> >> >>>>> Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:03:31 -0400 (EDT) >> >> >>>>>From: DANEN911@aol.com >> >> >>>>>Message-ID: <6b53a4dc.2447f46f@aol.com> >> >> >>>>>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 22:03:27 EDT >> >> >>>>>Subject: Fwd: Fw: Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!1 >> >> >>>>>To: RickB73@aol.com, rwiese@itol.com, jbrester@usa.net, >> >>mikehe@netnet.net, >> >> >>>>> roddubois@usa.net, AJaquet@aol.com, LeeLuBelle@aol.com, >> >> >>>lisa@triax.com, >> >> >>>>> Gimlet194@aol.com, Markh096@aol.com, AQUGRL@aol.com, >> >> >>>Squire77@aol.com >> >> >>>>>MIME-Version: 1.0 >> >> >>>>>Content-Type: multipart/mixed; >> >>boundary="part1_6b53a4dc.2447f46f_boundary" >> >> >>>>>X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 10 >> >> >>>>>Reply-To: DANEN911@aol.com >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>Return-path: FireRsq911@aol.com >> >> >>>>>From: FireRsq911@aol.com >> >> >>>>>Full-name: FireRsq911 >> >> >>>>>Message-ID: <6b53a4dc.2447db4b@aol.com> >> >> >>>>>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 20:16:11 EDT >> >> >>>>>Subject: Fwd: Fw: Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!1 >> >> >>>>>To: BKAngello@aol.com, RickB73@aol.com, rwiese@itol.com, >> >>lisa@triax.com, >> >> >>>>> DANEN911@aol.com, Sactoo@aol.com >> >> >>>>>MIME-Version: 1.0 >> >> >>>>>Content-Type: multipart/mixed; >> >>boundary="part2_6b53a4dc.2447db4b_boundary" >> >> >>>>>X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 120 >> >> >>>>>Reply-To: FireRsq911@aol.com >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>Return-path: CuffFun@aol.com >> >> >>>>>From: CuffFun@aol.com >> >> >>>>>Full-name: Cuff Fun >> >> >>>>>Message-ID: <6b53a4dc.24478e6a@aol.com> >> >> >>>>>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 14:48:10 EDT >> >> >>>>>Subject: Fwd: Fw: Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!1 >> >> >>>>>To: Alligal@aol.com >> >> >>>>>CC: MstngShana@aol.com, RiceLager@aol.com, MPT69696@aol.com, >> >> >>>>> DezigNut@aol.com, JeffreyMZ2@aol.com, FireRsq911@aol.com, >> >> >>>>> SBrock93@aol.com >> >> >>>>>MIME-Version: 1.0 >> >> >>>>>Content-Type: multipart/mixed; >> >>boundary="part3_6b53a4dc.24478e6a_boundary" >> >> >>>>>X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 4 >> >> >>>>>Reply-To: CuffFun@aol.com >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>Return-Path: >> >> >>>>>Received: from rly-za03.mx.aol.com (rly-za03.mail.aol.com >> >> >>>[172.31.36.99]) by >> >> >>>>> air-za03.mail.aol.com (v59.4) with SMTP; Thu, 15 Apr 1999 >>12:15:14 >> >> >>>>> -0400 >> >> >>>>>Received: from anat.ncds.net (anat.ncds.net [207.250.242.12]) >> >> >>>>> by rly-za03.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) >> >> >>>>> with ESMTP id MAA04266; >> >> >>>>> Thu, 15 Apr 1999 12:15:13 -0400 (EDT) >> >> >>>>>Received: from oemcomputer (p01-15.ffxp.ncds.net >>[207.250.242.190]) >> >> >>>>> by anat.ncds.net (8.8.7/8.8.7-sp) with SMTP id LAA18332; >> >> >>>>> Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:15:58 -0500 >> >> >>>>>Message-ID: <000e01be875b$7de6bd40$bef2facf@oemcomputer> >> >> >>>>>From: "derkvoskuil" >> >> >>>>>To: "Chad Wisneski" , "Cheryl" >> >> >, >> >> >>>>> "Eric J Giese" , >> >> >>>>> "Kim E. Voskuil" , "Kevin Quinn" >> >> >, >> >> >>>>> "Leanne Krista Rocque" , >> >> >>>>> "Rick A. Voskuil" , >> >> >>>>> "Steve Hawley" , >> >> >>>>> "Zaid Jazrawi" >> >> >>>>>Subject: Fw: Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!1 >> >> >>>>>Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 11:17:39 -0500 >> >> >>>>>MIME-Version: 1.0 >> >> >>>>>Content-Type: text/plain; >> >> >>>>> charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >>>>>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >> >> >>>>>X-Priority: 3 >> >> >>>>>X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >> >> >>>>>X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.1 >> >> >>>>>X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 >> >> >>>>>Reply-To: vozkilr@lse.fullfeed.com >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >> >> >>>>>From: Kevin Pludeman >> >> >>>>>To: James E. Henzi ; Jillian Peters >> >> >>>>>; Pat Brooks ; Rummy >>Makmur >> >> >>>>>; Scott Schwarz ; >>Steven >> >> >Jeon >> >> >>>>>; Steven Zasadil >>; >> >>Anthony >> >> >>>>>KIemme ; Antonio Gutierrez Alaman >> >> >>>>>; Benjamin P. Sierra >>; >> >> >>>>>Brent Seifert ; Chad Wisneski >> >> >>>>>; Christy Wolfe >>; >> >> >David >> >> >>>>>Hawkins ; Derk Voskuil >> >>; >> >> >>>>>Jason Pionek ; Joe Spatol >> >> >>>>>; Karla Degroot ; >> >>Kathleen >> >> >>>>>Coppock ; Lynn Horner >>; >> >> >>>>>Quang Tran ; Renee Juley >>; >> >> >>Rick >> >> >>>>>Voskuil ; Shawn A Gilson >> >> >>>>>; Steve Nockerts >> >>; >> >> >>>>>Tony Gendill ; Zachary Zwitter >> >> >> >> >> >>>>>Date: Thursday, April 15, 1999 8:23 AM >> >> >>>>>Subject: FW: Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!1 >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >> >>>>>>> From: Paula Bryfczynski [SMTP:bryfczps@uwec.edu] >> >> >>>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 1999 3:46 PM >> >> >>>>>>> To: Amanda R Vandehei; Joanna Marie Fischer; Lindsey Ann >>Joseph; >> >> >>>>>>> BigHavlo@hotmail.com; alanw@usxchange.net; >>pghitt@students.wisc.edu; >> >> >>>>>>> coonea74@vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu; Andrea Lynn Vercauteren; >> >> >>>>>>> MANDCA@mail.snc.edu; wormch55@aol.com; >> >>jlchristens@students.wisc.edu; >> >> >>>>>>> Spiegel.1@nd.edu; jarndt@umich.edu; mccombmike@hotmail.com; >> >> >>>>>>> wettsr79@uwosh.edu; slvicario@students.wisc.edu; Tina Marie >>Yeager >> >> >>>>>>> Subject: Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!1 >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >X-Sender: hankeebk@uwec.edu >> >> >>>>>>> >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) >> >> >>>>>>> >Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 12:14:10 -0500 >> >> >>>>>>> >To: GrandallA@juno.com, >> >> >>>>>>> > hanke_am@students.uwlax.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> > trelevenc@cashton.k12.wi.us, >> >> >>>>>>> > koka_kola_girl@hotmail.com, >> >> >>>>>>> > Danica Anne Kranig , >> >> >>>>>>> > smith_gj@students.uwlax.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> > jaschmitz@students.wisc.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> > jhemmersbach@yahoo.com, >> >> >>>>>>> > jramundson@students.wisc.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> > jessica.l.hurtz@uwrf.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> > mashakj@uwplatt.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> > weber_j3@students.uwlax.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> > meyer_ka@students.uwlax.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> > Katie Lillian Lauterbach , >> >> >>>>>>> > SCHRANDK@uwplatt.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> > kmlarso@mail.ilsu.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> > kristin.j.hankee@uwrf.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> > Lisa Marie Hochschild , >> >> >>>>>>> > MAGF3R@chmcc.org, >> >> >>>>>>> > Paula Susan Bryfczynski , >> >> >>>>>>> > Sarah Jo Hughes , >> >> >>>>>>> > timothy_leis@hotmail.com, >> >> >>>>>>> > tmgrabitske@mail.viterbo.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> > tjfronk@hotmail.com, >> >> >>>>>>> > wendybrownell@hotmail.com >> >> >>>>>>> >From: Brenda Hankee >> >> >>>>>>> >Subject: Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!1 >> >> >>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>> >>X-Sender: ss4z@pop3.uwrf.edu >> >> >>>>>>> >>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) >> >> >>>>>>> >>Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:48:10 -0500 >> >> >>>>>>> >>To: grandalla@juno.com, >> >> >>>>>>> >> Elizabeth.a.vaaler@uwrf.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> >> bradley.j.rortvedt@uwrf.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> >> Brenda Kaye Hankee , >> >> >>>>>>> >> tdchadmj@hotmail.com, >> >> >>>>>>> >> cucumbermc@yahoo.com, >> >> >>>>>>> >> hollymlsna@hotmail.com, >> >> >>>>>>> >> jennifer.l.bruchs@uwrf.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> >> jaschmitz@students.wisc.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> >> jessica.l.hurtz@uwrf.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> >> lschw400@uwsp.edu, >> >> >>>>>>> >> Marandaatschool@yahoo.com, >> >> >>>>>>> >> timothy_leis@hotmail.com, >> >> >>>>>>> >> tjfronk@hotmail.com, >> >> >>>>>>> >> wendybrownell@hotmail.com >> >> >>>>>>> >>From: Stacy Schreier >> >> >>>>>>> >>Subject: Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!1 >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Hello: >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>We here at Miller Brewing Company, Inc. would >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>like to help bring in the new millennium for everyone. >>We >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>like to think of ourselves as a progressive >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>company, keeping up with our >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>customers. We have found the best >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>way to do this via the Internet and email. >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Combining these things, we would like to make >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>a special offer to our >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>valued customers: If this email makes >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>it to 2,000,000 people by 12:00 PM on New >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Year's Eve of 1999, we will >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>send a coupon for one six-pack >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>of any of our Miller Brand beverages. >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>In the event that 2,000,000 people are >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>reached, our tracker/counter, >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>embedded in this message, will report >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>to us with the list of names and email >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>addresses. Thereafter, each >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>email address will be sent an electronic >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>coupon which you can print out and redeem at >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>any Miller Brand beverage carrying store. The coupons >>will >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>be sent as soon as 2,000,000 people are >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>reached, so the sooner, the >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>better. >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Enjoy, and Cheers, >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Gary D. Anderson, Chief Marketing Director >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Miller Brewing Company, Inc. >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>http://www.millerbrewing.com >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________________________ >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit >> >>http://www.msn.com >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>_______________________________________________________________ >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit >> >>http://www.msn.com >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>>--Boundary_(ID_h9ogzAGhzlHhIuIrqIvpHQ)-- >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >>>> >> >> >>>>>>> >>> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >> >>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>> > >> >> >>>>>>> >> >> >>>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >-- >> >> >Calling from DOVE Australia, >> >> >a service of Microtronics Information Systems. >> >> >Email info@mtx.net.au or visit http://www.mtx.net.au/ for more >>information! >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> >______________________________________________________ >> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> > >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 19:45:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40CFA14D8E for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 19:45:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id MAA14960; Wed, 5 May 1999 12:15:21 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA10291; Wed, 5 May 1999 12:15:16 +0930 (CST) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:15:16 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Stephen McKay Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Personal Unix Source Code License Message-ID: <19990505121515.B40359@freebie.lemis.com> References: <199905041552.BAA11924@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199905041552.BAA11924@nymph.detir.qld.gov.au>; from Stephen McKay on Wed, May 05, 1999 at 01:52:42AM +1000 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wednesday, 5 May 1999 at 1:52:42 +1000, Stephen McKay wrote: > Hi! I'm hoping some of the Personal Unix Source Code Licensees are on > this list. Well, I am, and I think there are a couple of others there too. > I just wanted to get a few opinions before I signed anything. > > Is anybody worried about "taint"? Back when USL was out to squash BSD, > AT&T claimed that just seeing the code infected your mind with their > intellectual property, and they wanted to put your brain in quarantine! > The long and boring SCO agreement seems pretty tame, but I don't read > these things often and might have missed something. In fact, this was a rather silly offhand comment at the time, and nobody except alt.folklore.computers took it seriously. > I've had a few giggles over how I would reply if SCO ever exercised their > right to know the "location, type and serial number of the DESIGNATED CPU". > And the perpetually renewing 1 year agreements seem odd but harmless, > unless SCO get bought out, I suppose. This was discussed at some length in the pups list. The opinion, even unofficially from within SCO, was that this was to keep the suits happy. Here a couple of quotes: [Warren Toomey, 26 Feb 1998] > No, what the legal guys have done is take the original v7 license and > alter it enough to keep us happy. This is why there are such hangovers > as designated CPUs. They probably did this to: > > + minimise the work they had to do, and > + prevent a product being licensed under widely different systems > > If they created a completely new license, there may be a legal slant: > e.g hey I own an original Western Electric v7 license, and now SCO's > selling licenses which allow export of code to China (for example). > That's unfair, because my license prevents that. Sue, sue!! > > [Maybe I'm just being paranoid here]. > Anyway, the CPU restriction is BOGUS. SCO already have a binary license > for v5, v6 and v7 which allows you to run these systems on an UNLIMITED > number of CPUs. I can't see how they are going to enforce the CPU > restriction in the new license. > > I think Dion suggested that auditing was probably not going to happen. > Mind you, don't hold him to that! Dion is Dion Johnson, Our Man at SCO. [Warren Toomey, 4 Mar 1998] > In article by Tim Shoppa: >> Another stupid question: few of us (perhaps I'm the only one) have >> CD-ROM readers/writers attached to PDP-11's. Will those who have to >> transfer the source kit through a PC-clone or other Unix workstation >> have to license the intermediary machines with SCO? In other words, >> will the intermediary machines need to be registered as "DESIGNATED >> CPU"s? > > My interpretation is this: > > DESIGNATED CPU means all CPUs licensed as such for a specific > SOURCE CODE PRODUCT. > > SCO grants to LICENSEE a personal, nontransferable and > nonexclusive right to use, in the AUTHORIZED COUNTRY, each SOURCE > CODE PRODUCT identified in Section 3 of this Agreement, solely > for personal use [..] and solely on or in conjunction with > DESIGNATED CPUs [...]. Such right to use includes the right to > modify such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT and to prepare DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT > based on such SOURCE CODE PRODUCT, > > In my opinion, you can't USE the source code unless you have a CPU which > run the machine code which is produced by the source code. I can't prepare > a DERIVED BINARY PRODUCT if I don't have a PDP-11 or an emulator of such. [end quotations] > So, the real worry is that getting the Official (but Ancient) Unix Source > might in some way inhibit my ability to engage in current day free Unix-like > software development. > > Is it just the stuff they put in my water, or is there a valid reason for > concern? I think it's the stuff they put in your water. This kind of discrimination is illegal in most countries, including the USA and Australia. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 21: 6: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (dialin2017.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A27D1528C for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 21:06:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA24111 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 23:23:33 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199905050423.XAA24111@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.44); 4 May 99 23:05:49 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.44); 4 May 99 23:05:16 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 4 May 1999 23:05:11 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Subject: Interesting comments on Linux from one of the fathers of Unix Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com In-reply-to: <372F5A4A.E09421DB@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.10fb) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org A friend sent this to me, and I thought it might be of interest... I hope it hasn't been quoted here too often already.... from "Unix and Beyond: An Interview with Ken Thompson" http://computer.org/computer/thompson.htm Computer: In a sense, Linux is following in this tradition. Any thoughts on this phenomenon? Thompson: I view Linux as something that's not Microsoft=97a backlash against Microsoft, no more and no less. I don't think it will be very successful in the long run. I've looked at the source and there are pieces that are good and pieces that are not. A whole bunch of random people have contributed to this source, and the quality varies drastically. My experience and some of my friends' experience is that Linux is quite unreliable. Microsoft is really unreliable but Linux is worse. In a non-PC environment, it just won't hold up. If you're using it on a single box, that's one thing. But if you want to use Linux in firewalls, gateways, embedded systems, and so on, it has a long way to go. --- =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Metaphors be with you! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 21:36:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net (arc1-17.netwalk.net [206.175.61.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3D715725 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 21:36:10 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA67162; Wed, 5 May 1999 00:00:51 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 00:03:21 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: "Viren R. Shah" Cc: Steve Kargl , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re:PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: <199905041651.MAA23567@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wow. I just finished reading this article. It's definately one of the most positive pieces I've seen. This really belongs in -advocacy. It surprised me though that the author wrote this: "As inspiring as such stories may be, they're not always enough to persuade risk-averse CIO's to take a gamble on FreeBSD. IT Managers who are comfortable with mainstream technical support shy away from FreeBSD, which does not offer traditional technical support" Then, at the very bottom of the page, is a link to the FreeBSD Mall, which does in fact offer what I would consider to be "traditional technical support". Either way, I thought it was a pretty decent article. On Tue, 4 May 1999, Viren R. Shah wrote: :>>>>> "Steve" == Steve Kargl writes: : : Steve> FYI, : Steve> Anne Chen has written a fairly decent article about : Steve> FreeBSD in PCWEEK vol. 16(18) p. 67. : : : http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,400844,00.html : : :Viren :-- :Viren R. Shah | Everyone was born right-handed. :viren@rstcorp.com | Only the greatest overcome it. : : :To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org :with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message : : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 21:51: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F9D14FBF for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 21:51:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19304; Tue, 4 May 1999 22:50:41 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990504223819.00c28c30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Tue, 04 May 1999 22:50:37 -0600 To: jmutter@netwalk.com, "Viren R. Shah" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re:PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: Steve Kargl , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199905041651.MAA23567@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It does reflect the weaknesses in the current marketing and promotion of FreeBSD. In particular, the article mentions the lack of native application support. (Running Linux binaries under emulation isn't acceptable to the IT crowd; the platform must be SUPPORTED by the application vendor.) As I've said many times before, the technical foundation of FreeBSD is excellent, and the people who work on the OS are very competent programmers and debuggers. FreeBSD's deficiencies are in the areas of marketing, promotion, native application support, and a good "story." In short, it has not technical problems but rather memetic problems. This is enough to cause it to lose out to Linux's more adaptive memes. To solve these problems, FreeBSD needs the sort of marketing that the current leadership rejects. To use a phrase coined by Alan Cooper, "The inmates are running the asylum." Even development efforts will fall behind -- due to a lack of enthusiastic volunteers -- if this problem is not rectified. --Brett Glass At 12:03 AM 5/5/99 -0400, James A. Mutter wrote: >Wow. I just finished reading this article. It's definately one of >the most positive pieces I've seen. This really belongs in -advocacy. > >It surprised me though that the author wrote this: > > "As inspiring as such stories may be, they're not always > enough to persuade risk-averse CIO's to take a gamble on > FreeBSD. IT Managers who are comfortable with mainstream > technical support shy away from FreeBSD, which does not > offer traditional technical support" > >Then, at the very bottom of the page, is a link to the FreeBSD Mall, >which does in fact offer what I would consider to be "traditional >technical support". > >Either way, I thought it was a pretty decent article. > > >On Tue, 4 May 1999, Viren R. Shah wrote: > >:>>>>> "Steve" == Steve Kargl writes: >: >: Steve> FYI, >: Steve> Anne Chen has written a fairly decent article about >: Steve> FreeBSD in PCWEEK vol. 16(18) p. 67. >: >: >: http://www.zdnet.com/pcweek/stories/news/0,4153,400844,00.html >: >: >:Viren >:-- >:Viren R. Shah | Everyone was born right-handed. >:viren@rstcorp.com | Only the greatest overcome it. >: >: >:To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >:with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message >: >: > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue May 4 22:42:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from queasy.outpost.co.nz (unknown [203.96.157.150]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B13F715C70 for ; Tue, 4 May 1999 22:42:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from crh@outpost.co.nz) Received: (qmail 94096 invoked from network); 5 May 1999 05:46:36 -0000 Received: from officedonkey.outpost.co.nz (HELO officedonkey) (192.168.1.3) by queasy.outpost.co.nz.1.168.192.in-addr.arpa with SMTP; 5 May 1999 05:46:36 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Craig Harding" Organization: Outpost Digital Media Ltd To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:41:59 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Losers! (was Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!) Reply-To: crh@outpost.co.nz In-reply-to: <19990505004224.31216.qmail@hotmail.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.52) Message-Id: <19990505054225.B13F715C70@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org troy b wrote: > >> >______________________________________________________ > >> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > >______________________________________________________ > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Says it all, really. -- C. -- Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 1:27:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.wxs.nl (smtp02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.60]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D31015898 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 01:27:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.197.173]) by smtp02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA1EB9; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:27:37 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00447; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:28:27 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990505054225.B13F715C70@hub.freebsd.org> Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:28:26 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Craig Harding Subject: RE: Losers! (was Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!! Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-May-99 Craig Harding wrote: > troy b wrote: > >> >> >______________________________________________________ >> >> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >______________________________________________________ >> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> ______________________________________________________ >> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > Says it all, really. Indeed... The worst thing about those mails though is that them weirdo's don't take the time to reparagraph it... Looks like shit when it finally reaches people =P --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Powered by Knowledge & Know-how To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 1:58:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E80D114F5F for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 01:58:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA29109; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:58:24 +1000 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:58:24 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: Craig Harding Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Losers! (was Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!) In-Reply-To: <19990505054225.B13F715C70@hub.freebsd.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org make sure you complain to hotmail. although i think it was obviously a newbie doing a dumb thing. Andrew Perry On Wed, 5 May 1999, Craig Harding wrote: > Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:41:59 +1200 > From: Craig Harding > To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > Subject: Losers! (was Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!) > > troy b wrote: > > > >> >______________________________________________________ > > >> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > >______________________________________________________ > > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ______________________________________________________ > > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > Says it all, really. > > -- C. > -- > Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd > "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 7:37:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net (tcs3-07.netwalk.net [206.175.52.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 13DE414BEE for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 07:37:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id IAA68566; Wed, 5 May 1999 08:59:09 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:02:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: Andrew Perry Cc: Craig Harding , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Losers! (was Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org And also, make sure you don't reply to the list. Instead of plowing my way through one piece of spam I've now had to plow my way through four. Yes, I know I included the list, I wanted everyone to see it. On Wed, 5 May 1999, Andrew Perry wrote: :make sure you complain to hotmail. although i think it was obviously a :newbie doing a dumb thing. : :Andrew Perry : :On Wed, 5 May 1999, Craig Harding wrote: : :> Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:41:59 +1200 :> From: Craig Harding :> To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG :> Subject: Losers! (was Fwd: Miller Beers, drinkem while their cold!!!!!!) :> :> troy b wrote: :> :> > >> >______________________________________________________ :> > >> >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com :> > >______________________________________________________ :> > >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com :> > ______________________________________________________ :> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com :> :> Says it all, really. :> :> -- C. :> -- :> Craig Harding Head of Postproduction, Outpost Digital Media Ltd :> "I don't know about God, I just think we're handmade" - Polly :> :> :> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org :> with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message :> : : : :To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org :with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message : : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 8:19:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8C814BEC for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 08:19:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id IAA50503; Wed, 5 May 1999 08:19:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:19:01 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: Brett Glass Cc: jmutter@netwalk.com, "Viren R. Shah" , Steve Kargl , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Message-ID: <19990505081901.B24172@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com References: <199905041651.MAA23567@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> <4.2.0.37.19990504223819.00c28c30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990504223819.00c28c30@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Tue, May 04, 1999 at 10:50:37PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, May 04, 1999 at 10:50:37PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > It does reflect the weaknesses in the current marketing and promotion > of FreeBSD. In particular, the article mentions the lack of native > application support. (Running Linux binaries under emulation isn't > acceptable to the IT crowd; the platform must be SUPPORTED by the > application vendor.) > > As I've said many times before, the technical foundation of FreeBSD > is excellent, and the people who work on the OS are very competent > programmers and debuggers. FreeBSD's deficiencies are in the areas > of marketing, promotion, native application support, and a good > "story." In short, it has not technical problems but rather memetic > problems. > > This is enough to cause it to lose out to Linux's more adaptive > memes. > > To solve these problems, FreeBSD needs the sort of marketing that > the current leadership rejects. To use a phrase coined by Alan > Cooper, "The inmates are running the asylum." > > Even development efforts will fall behind -- due to a lack of > enthusiastic volunteers -- if this problem is not rectified. Yes, you have said many times before that the marketing of FreeBSD is lackluster at best and the response has always been the same; go and do a better job. No on is holding a gun to your head Brett. If you are that unhappy with the current marketing effort you are invited to do a better job. Yes, that's right, just go a do it. No on is stopping you. I am growing very tired of this little game of yours Brett. Every couple of weeks you show up telling us how wrong we are and how we are completely fucking this up and we should do this and that. Notice, of course, you never lift a finger yourself. Everyone gets in an uproar over that latest round of Brett bullshit, then you stomp off in a huff, promising never to darken our doorstop again. A few weeks go by and you are back. Have you ever been diagnosed as a manic-depressive? I've said this before and I'll say it again. If you are that unhappy with our efforts then get up off your dead ass and do something about it. Prove us wrong. Time to put up or shut up. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 8:20:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 495F51553A for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 08:20:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.6 1998/11/24 22:10:56 iwep Exp iwep $) with ESMTP id IAA29586 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 08:20:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.8 1999/04/16 15:25:49 steved Exp steved $) with ESMTP id IAA25837 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 08:20:22 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-To: X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id LAA13208; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:20:22 -0400 (EDT) From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14128.25013.222841.381373@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 08:20:21 -0700 (MST) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Mindcruft ... X-Mailer: VM 6.70 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I wonder how we could get in on this fun ... http://www.mindcraft.com/openbenchmark.html I'm sure that 3.1-STABLE or some other variant could compete quite well at this little game ... -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds CEG, CCE, Next Generation Flows, HLA | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 8:24: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from umd5.umd.edu (umd5.umd.edu [128.8.10.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D0F5157D2 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 08:23:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from poirot.umd.edu (poirot.umd.edu [128.8.10.129]) by umd5.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA24898; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:23:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by poirot.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id LAA17920; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:23:32 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: poirot.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:23:32 -0400 (EDT) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@poirot.umd.edu To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Cc: Brett Glass , jmutter@netwalk.com, "Viren R. Shah" , Steve Kargl , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: <19990505081901.B24172@ontario.mooseriver.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 May 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Tue, May 04, 1999 at 10:50:37PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > It does reflect the weaknesses in the current marketing and promotion > > of FreeBSD. In particular, the article mentions the lack of native > > application support. (Running Linux binaries under emulation isn't > > acceptable to the IT crowd; the platform must be SUPPORTED by the > > application vendor.) I've been using FreeBSD for years and have no objection to running Linux programs in emulation mode. However, I have seen this by IT people before. Maybe it would be more advantagous to rephrase it as "Native Linux Binary" support or something similar just to catch those in IT who aren't bright enough to understand what that means. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 9: 3:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sun-1.crystalsugar.com (unknown [207.0.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id BDEA014C45 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:03:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danderso@crystalsugar.com) Received: from sun-1.crystalsugar.com by sun-1.crystalsugar.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA06817; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:03:32 -0500 Received: from mail (mail.crystalsugar.com [207.0.65.31]) by ns.crystalsugar.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA27540 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:03:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from JCEDO-Message_Server by mail with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 05 May 1999 11:02:39 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:02:35 -0500 From: "Dale Anderson" To: Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Not bright enough to = understand ????" What us IT people mean, is that running an application = under emulation means it will run a little slower, as that middle = abstraction layer has to emulate and that takes CPU cycles. Another = reason is that if you talk to some sort of tech support for a product that = isn't running quite right under emulation, they will just tell us to "Go = get the real platform to run it on." Also, are applications need to run all the time, everytime. Users don't = understand the concept of downtime, and often our job performance is rated = on up-time. For these reasons, we like native applications over "Emulated enviroments= ." >>> James Howard 05/05/99 10:23AM >>> On Wed, 5 May 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > On Tue, May 04, 1999 at 10:50:37PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > It does reflect the weaknesses in the current marketing and promotion > > of FreeBSD. In particular, the article mentions the lack of native > > application support. (Running Linux binaries under emulation isn't=20 > > acceptable to the IT crowd; the platform must be SUPPORTED by the=20 > > application vendor.) I've been using FreeBSD for years and have no objection to running Linux programs in emulation mode. However, I have seen this by IT people before. Maybe it would be more advantagous to rephrase it as "Native Linux Binary" support or something similar just to catch those in IT who aren't bright enough to understand what that means. Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org=20 with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 9:10: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net (tcs7-29.netwalk.net [206.175.76.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 773C815120 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:10:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA68991; Wed, 5 May 1999 12:09:03 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:12:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: James Howard Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, Brett Glass , jmutter@netwalk.com, "Viren R. Shah" , Steve Kargl , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :I've been using FreeBSD for years and have no objection to running Linux :programs in emulation mode. However, I have seen this by IT people :before. Maybe it would be more advantagous to rephrase it as "Native :Linux Binary" support or something similar just to catch those in IT who :aren't bright enough to understand what that means. : :Jamie That wouldn't be a bad idea. Not a bad idea at all. If it were branded as "Native Linux Binary Support" and a small blurb as to how it works and why it isn't exactly emulation. Could someone with a deeper technical understanding of how this works write something up? Maybe get it into the marketing scheme? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 9:15:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net (tcs7-29.netwalk.net [206.175.76.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32BE615120 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:15:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA69011; Wed, 5 May 1999 12:14:02 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:17:00 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: John Reynolds~ Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mindcruft ... In-Reply-To: <14128.25013.222841.381373@hip186.ch.intel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, someone asked this a few days ago and the general response was that Mindcraft's reputation was rather tainted at the moment. It would be nice though to see a test, formal or informal, of FreeBSD 3.X, Linux (Whatever is the latest stable kernel), and NT 4.0 all tuned by a professional on the same hardware, same situation, etc... Generally, a fair test on a level playing field. On Wed, 5 May 1999, John Reynolds~ wrote: : :I wonder how we could get in on this fun ... : : http://www.mindcraft.com/openbenchmark.html : :I'm sure that 3.1-STABLE or some other variant could compete quite well at :this little game ... : :-Jr : :-- :=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= :| John Reynolds CEG, CCE, Next Generation Flows, HLA | :| Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 | :| jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | :=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= : : :To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org :with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message : : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 9:20:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from melete.ch.intel.com (melete.ch.intel.com [143.182.246.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3083C15201 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:20:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com) Received: from sedona.intel.com (sedona.ch.intel.com [143.182.218.21]) by melete.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a+p1/8.9.1/d: relay.m4,v 1.6 1998/11/24 22:10:56 iwep Exp iwep $) with ESMTP id JAA01897; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:20:21 -0700 (MST) Received: from hip186.ch.intel.com (hip186.ch.intel.com [143.182.225.68]) by sedona.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: sendmail.cf,v 1.8 1999/04/16 15:25:49 steved Exp steved $) with ESMTP id JAA05001; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:20:22 -0700 (MST) X-Envelope-From: jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com Received: (from jreynold@localhost) by hip186.ch.intel.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1/d: client.m4,v 1.3 1998/09/29 16:36:11 sedayao Exp sedayao $) id MAA13879; Wed, 5 May 1999 12:20:21 -0400 (EDT) From: John Reynolds~ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: <14128.28612.595577.421402@hip186.ch.intel.com> Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 09:20:20 -0700 (MST) To: jmutter@netwalk.com Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mindcruft ... In-Reply-To: References: <14128.25013.222841.381373@hip186.ch.intel.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.70 under Emacs 19.34.1 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ On Wednesday, May 5, James A. Mutter wrote: ] > > Well, someone asked this a few days ago and the general response was > that Mindcraft's reputation was rather tainted at the moment. It > would be nice though to see a test, formal or informal, of FreeBSD > 3.X, Linux (Whatever is the latest stable kernel), and NT 4.0 all > tuned by a professional on the same hardware, same situation, etc... > Generally, a fair test on a level playing field. I definitely agree. All that URL did was talk about Linux, linux, linux. Linux this and Linux that ... I'm quite sure that FreeBSD could hold its own against Linux on the same hardware. It would sure be cool to be able to steal some of the PR on this. And, if by some chance, we didn't score as well as we needed to, we could use that as constructive criticism and go work on those areas (since we seem to have the goal to be the "server of choice" and this benchmark was server stuff ... not how well Office clones or WindowMaker work to take over world domination from M$). -Jr -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= | John Reynolds CEG, CCE, Next Generation Flows, HLA | | Intel Corporation MS: CH6-210 Phone: 480-554-9092 pgr: 868-6512 | | jreynold@sedona.ch.intel.com http://www-aec.ch.intel.com/~jreynold/ | =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 9:39:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net (tcs4-50.netwalk.net [206.175.52.242]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8F414E37 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:39:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA69107; Wed, 5 May 1999 12:38:05 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:41:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: John Reynolds~ Cc: jmutter@netwalk.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mindcruft ... In-Reply-To: <14128.28612.595577.421402@hip186.ch.intel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :> Well, someone asked this a few days ago and the general response was :> that Mindcraft's reputation was rather tainted at the moment. It :> would be nice though to see a test, formal or informal, of FreeBSD :> 3.X, Linux (Whatever is the latest stable kernel), and NT 4.0 all :> tuned by a professional on the same hardware, same situation, etc... :> Generally, a fair test on a level playing field. : :I definitely agree. All that URL did was talk about Linux, linux, linux. :Linux this and Linux that ... I'm quite sure that FreeBSD could hold its own :against Linux on the same hardware. It would sure be cool to be able to :steal some of the PR on this. And, if by some chance, we didn't score as :well as we needed to, we could use that as constructive criticism and go :work on those areas (since we seem to have the goal to be the "server of :choice" and this benchmark was server stuff ... not how well Office clones :or WindowMaker work to take over world domination from M$). : Anyone out there with the hardware and software to make something like this happen? Even informally, I'd like to know, I'm sure others would too. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 9:56:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11BFD14F68 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 09:56:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23699; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:56:17 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505102722.00c748f0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 10:54:52 -0600 To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: jmutter@netwalk.com, "Viren R. Shah" , Steve Kargl , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990505081901.B24172@ontario.mooseriver.com> References: <4.2.0.37.19990504223819.00c28c30@localhost> <199905041651.MAA23567@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> <4.2.0.37.19990504223819.00c28c30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:19 AM 5/5/99 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: >Yes, you have said many times before that the marketing of FreeBSD is >lackluster at best and the response has always been the same; go and do a >better job. >No on is holding a gun to your head Brett. If you are that >unhappy with the current marketing effort you are invited to do a better >job. Yes, that's right, just go a do it. No on is stopping you. Doing a better job would take a great deal of time and effort. If I could arrange, somehow, to generate enough of an income stream from it, I'd do it. Ideas? >I am growing very tired of this little game of yours Brett. Every couple of >weeks you show up telling us how wrong we are and how we are completely >fucking this up and we should do this and that. Who is "we?" I have not criticized you as a developer; in fact, I think that the Core Team is doing a good job. Its main problem is that it is short on people, and this is what's hurting the project badly. (It is a tragedy that there are no CAM drivers for the most common Adaptec ISA SCSI host adapters, for example -- but this stems not from a lack of competence so much as a lack of hands and brains.) The problem about which I'm sounding off is PR. Since FreeBSD's PR problems are actually a major cause of the manpower shortage, I would hope and expect that the Core Team members, wanting to see progress, would be very much on my side on this issue! >Notice, of course, you >never lift a finger yourself. I've been discouraged from contributing code by Jordan, in particular, and also a few others. These people don't recognize the severity of the marketing problems or understand how to deal with them -- in fact, they actively FIGHT AGAINST the sort of marketing that's needed. I think that one reason why Jordan may be motivated to reject my proposed technical contributions is that influence within the group seems to stem (rightly or wrongly) from the extent to which one has contributed code. If he doesn't like the way I would advocate FreeBSD, the most effective way of making sure that my ideas about advocacy are rejected is -- perversely -- to prevent me from gaining respect as a coder. The ability to do marketing and advocacy shouldn't correlate with coding; they're two different areas. But the current tie between the two virtually guarantees that techies -- who are often bad at it -- will make marketing and advocacy decisions. This is one of the maladaptive traits of the current FreeBSD organizational structure. >Everyone gets in an uproar over that latest >round of Brett bullshit, then you stomp off in a huff, promising never to >darken our doorstop again. Sorry, but I can't "stomp off in a huff;" I have to read and participate in the mailing lists because I administer and customize some systems that run FreeBSD. I *did* resign from the advocacy list because it appeared that attempting to turn the self-destructive tide there was a lost cause. >A few weeks go by and you are back. Have you >ever been diagnosed as a manic-depressive? No, I've been diagnosed as an effective designer who falls behind on mailing lists while he builds custom hardware and does programming. ;-) Not to mention my work as a musician, writer, carpenter, and rental property manager. I have a time budget for online discussions, and it runs out quickly when I'm being flamed. So, I have to drop out. >I've said this before and I'll say it again. If you are that unhappy with >our efforts then get up off your dead ass and do something about it. Prove >us wrong. Time to put up or shut up. Again, how would you suggest that I invest this massive amount of time and effort (and it would be massive; there's a LOT of work to do and many things to UNdo) and not go broke? While I *would* like to see FreeBSD succeed, I certainly couldn't martyr myself financially for it. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 10:10: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02DD3150B3 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:10:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA23829; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:09:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505105712.00b51a20@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 11:05:45 -0600 To: James Howard , jgrosch@MooseRiver.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: jmutter@netwalk.com, "Viren R. Shah" , Steve Kargl , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19990505081901.B24172@ontario.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Reframing what *FreeBSD* does is not what matters. What matters is what happens when the customer calls the application vendor's tech support line. If he or she is told that FreeBSD is not a directly and officially supported platform, or even has trouble getting through to the one guy in tech support who happened to try the product on FreeBSD, that's it. FreeBSD is out. IT managers are paid to be bullheaded and ultra-conservative in this regard. No Windows product vendor supported their code under Win-OS/2; we can't expect very many Linux product vendors to support their code under Linux emulation. And the vendor's technical support staff will fight such a thing, since it requires them to know a lot about a platform for which they will get few calls (a vicious cycle). And their Linux support staff will likely be imbued with the Linux "doctrine" and be uninterested in FreeBSD. You've got to get a native port AND a FreeBSD-knowledgeable support staff at the application vendor's site that pushes FreeBSD's cause. This means NUMBERS, and this in turn means evangelism. --Brett Glass At 11:23 AM 5/5/99 -0400, James Howard wrote: >I've been using FreeBSD for years and have no objection to running Linux >programs in emulation mode. However, I have seen this by IT people >before. Maybe it would be more advantagous to rephrase it as "Native >Linux Binary" support or something similar just to catch those in IT who >aren't bright enough to understand what that means. > >Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 10:40:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (dialin2017.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E05D014DDE for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:40:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA25014 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 12:57:58 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199905051757.MAA25014@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.44); 5 May 99 12:39:57 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.44); 5 May 99 12:39:41 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:39:31 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com In-reply-to: <4.2.0.37.19990505105712.00b51a20@localhost> References: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.10fb) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 5 May 99, at 11:05, Brett Glass wrote: > Reframing what *FreeBSD* does is not what matters. What matters is what > happens when the customer calls the application vendor's tech support > line. If he or she is told that FreeBSD is not a directly and officially > supported platform, or even has trouble getting through to the one guy in > tech support who happened to try the product on FreeBSD, that's it. > FreeBSD is out. IT managers are paid to be bullheaded and > ultra-conservative in this regard. Yeah - we've all been in battles where the lesser solution won because the boss liked the company that sold it better. Sadly, as you get older, you'll understand where the boss is coming from. The boss has to defend purchase decisions to people further up the chain... people who understand even less than the boss does. > No Windows product vendor supported their code under Win-OS/2; we can't > expect very many Linux product vendors to support their code under Linux > emulation. And the vendor's technical support staff will fight such a > thing, since it requires them to know a lot about a platform for which > they will get few calls (a vicious cycle). And their Linux support staff > will likely be imbued with the Linux "doctrine" and be uninterested in > FreeBSD. You've got to get a native port AND a FreeBSD-knowledgeable > support staff at the application vendor's site that pushes FreeBSD's > cause. This means NUMBERS, and this in turn means evangelism. There's a big hurdle in itself - how do you get the numbers? No, not "how do you get people to try and use FreeBSD" but "how do you get numbers of systems in use that the boss and developers can buy into?" Linux had the same problem. The first step for them was the distribution houses making money on the product. The next step, and it was a big one in terms of credibility, was when the RedHat's, the Caldera's, and the SuSe's got shelf space in BestBuy, OfficeDepot, and other mass market outlets. These trends generated numbers people could point to untis sold, not just downloaded and installed. Installathons and university exposure are probably the best first steps... as well as pointing out that we are more than "not Microsoft". Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Saddam Hussein still has his job. Do you? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 10:52:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (dialin2017.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6406214D18 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:52:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA25028 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:10:21 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199905051810.NAA25028@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.44); 5 May 99 12:52:18 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.44); 5 May 99 12:51:51 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 12:51:44 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com In-reply-to: <4.2.0.37.19990505102722.00c748f0@localhost> References: <19990505081901.B24172@ontario.mooseriver.com> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.10fb) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 5 May 99, at 10:54, Brett Glass wrote: > At 08:19 AM 5/5/99 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: > >Yes, you have said many times before that the marketing of FreeBSD is > >lackluster at best and the response has always been the same; go and do a > >better job. >No on is holding a gun to your head Brett. If you are that > >unhappy with the current marketing effort you are invited to do a better > >job. Yes, that's right, just go a do it. No on is stopping you. > Doing a better job would take a great deal of time and effort. If I could > arrange, somehow, to generate enough of an income stream from it, I'd do > it. I started out as a programmer and systems analyst. And sold out and moved into system administration. And all along, I harbored feelings that marketing was somehow a way for people who added no value to a product to get WAAAYYYYYY too much money. For doing things that no self-respecting person would do. As I get older, I realize that marketing creates demand. Whether we like it or not. And that someone will create demand for a class of product. If you don't create demand for your product, your competitor will create demand for theirs. Marketing is as essential as having a product. And it ain't easy. In fact, in it's own way it's as hard as creating a product. > >I've said this before and I'll say it again. If you are that unhappy with > >our efforts then get up off your dead ass and do something about it. > >Prove us wrong. Time to put up or shut up. > Again, how would you suggest that I invest this massive amount of time and > effort (and it would be massive; there's a LOT of work to do and many > things to UNdo) and not go broke? While I *would* like to see FreeBSD > succeed, I certainly couldn't martyr myself financially for it. I don't think that if someone were to criticize FreeBSD technically people would seriously tell them to "write your own OS". It's not easy. And we know FreeBSD wasn't the product of one person in their basement. Similarly, advocacy isn't a one person job. As a FreeBSD newbie, I probably should look more before speaking, but advocacy and development require different skills. That isn't to say one person can't have both, but most often they don't. It seems that there should be a separate group handling publicity, evangalism, advocacy, and so on. And the group should be more open than the existing structure seems to be. Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Do not Adjust your Mind! The Fault is with Reality!! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 11:10:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.wxs.nl (smtp01.wxs.nl [195.121.6.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E29BC15006; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:10:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org ([195.121.196.146]) by smtp01.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with ESMTP id AAA7363; Wed, 5 May 1999 20:10:05 +0200 Received: from daemon.ninth-circle.org (abaddon@daemon [192.168.0.1]) by daemon.ninth-circle.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA00608; Wed, 5 May 1999 20:11:00 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from asmodai@wxs.nl) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199905051810.NAA25028@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 20:11:00 +0200 (CEST) Organization: Ninth Circle Enterprises From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-May-99 Mike Avery wrote: > I don't think that if someone were to criticize FreeBSD technically > people would seriously tell them to "write your own OS". It's not > easy. And we know FreeBSD wasn't the product of one person in > their basement. Similarly, advocacy isn't a one person job. > > As a FreeBSD newbie, I probably should look more before speaking, > but advocacy and development require different skills. That isn't to > say one person can't have both, but most often they don't. It seems > that there should be a separate group handling publicity, evangalism, > advocacy, and so on. And the group should be more open than the > existing structure seems to be. Sorry if I am going to step on people's toes with this post and use a few french words every now and then, but I am getting fucking tired of this whole useless debate by now. It seems that the people with the biggest complaints are doing NOTHING about their situation in order to add something to the project. BULLSHIT about core picking on you and rejecting your ideas on forehand. Simply send-pr yer patches, suggestions etc and no-one can decline/reject them if they are technically sound or otherwise undeniably good. Core are not the only committers... Also, as a couple of people by now know (like Eivind, Jordan, Adrian, Mike, and a few others) I am a kernel hacker wannabe, yet I lack the skill(s) at this point to contribute majorly, so instead I focus on getting other things off the ground in order to enlargen my knowledge in order to contribute as soon as possible... Also I have been busy getting support for FreeBSD from a few companies as well as making FreeBSD a well known word wherever I have a chance... Also, speaking on advocacy and getting an income, just look at what Jim Mock & Robert Garrett managed to pull off in their _spare_ time for advocacy (http://advocacy.freebsd.org for the unaware). Advocacy can be done on multiple levels... So the argument that advocacy is a PR job is bullshit... PR only gets to suits... It's the techies and users one ultimately has to please and granted managers do have to be influenced, but then again, I have always `served' under a management that was reasonable for well explained decisions about OS implementations... So get off your fucking moaning/whining/bitching pedestal and CONTRIBUTE damnit... --- Jeroen Ruigrok van der Werven asmodai(at)wxs.nl The FreeBSD Programmer's Documentation Project Network/Security Specialist *BSD: Accept no limitations... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 11:22:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sumatra.americantv.com (sumatra.americantv.com [208.139.222.227]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B339152A7 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:22:37 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jlemon@americantv.com) Received: from right.PCS (right.PCS [148.105.10.31]) by sumatra.americantv.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA05533; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:22:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from free.pcs (free.PCS [148.105.10.51]) by right.PCS (8.6.13/8.6.4) with ESMTP id NAA06520; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:22:33 -0500 Received: (from jlemon@localhost) by free.pcs (8.8.6/8.8.5) id NAA12099; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:22:32 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 13:22:32 -0500 (CDT) From: Jonathan Lemon Message-Id: <199905051822.NAA12099@free.pcs> To: brett@lariat.org, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments X-Newsgroups: local.mail.freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Organization: Architecture and Operating System Fanatics Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In article you write: >At 08:19 AM 5/5/99 -0700, Josef Grosch wrote: >>I've said this before and I'll say it again. If you are that unhappy with >>our efforts then get up off your dead ass and do something about it. Prove >>us wrong. Time to put up or shut up. > >Again, how would you suggest that I invest this massive amount of time and >effort (and it would be massive; there's a LOT of work to do and many things >to UNdo) and not go broke? While I *would* like to see FreeBSD succeed, I >certainly couldn't martyr myself financially for it. Provide _constructive_ guidance and leadership. There probably are quite a few lurkers on the list who would be more than happy to help, if someone would just tell them how. Not just "go off and do XXX", but provide scripted, step-by-step instructions. If you don't have the time to do it yourself, then explain to others how to do it. When objections are raised (cf: advocacy style), then 1) attempt to educate (sell) why your approach will work, and if that still fails, 2) take into account the objections, realize that perhaps your target will not be accomplished in one step, and 3) reformulate your plan into smaller increments that are palatable to the volunteers. Just a suggestion. -- Jonathan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 11:30:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A81AB14C85 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:30:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:30:09 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: , "John Reynolds~" Cc: Subject: RE: Mindcruft ... Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:30:09 -0700 Message-ID: <000301be9725$4e6c7f30$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Well, someone asked this a few days ago and the general response was > that Mindcraft's reputation was rather tainted at the moment. It > would be nice though to see a test, formal or informal, of FreeBSD > 3.X, Linux (Whatever is the latest stable kernel), and NT 4.0 all > tuned by a professional on the same hardware, same situation, etc... > Generally, a fair test on a level playing field. Same hardware is not a level playing field. Sensible people optimize the hardware for the operating system they plan to use. I could show you Linux and NT beating the stuffing out of FreeBSD by using my MX98713 network card in 100Mbps half duplex mode. For some reason FreeBSD chokes on it. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 11:42: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net (tcs3-40.netwalk.net [206.175.52.168]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0205515542 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:41:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia.local.net (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id OAA69444; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:40:53 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:43:52 -0400 (EDT) From: "James A. Mutter" Reply-To: jmutter@netwalk.com To: David Schwartz Cc: jmutter@netwalk.com, John Reynolds~ , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Mindcruft ... In-Reply-To: <000301be9725$4e6c7f30$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org :> Generally, a fair test on a level playing field. : : Same hardware is not a level playing field. Sensible people optimize the :hardware for the operating system they plan to use. I could show you Linux :and NT beating the stuffing out of FreeBSD by using my MX98713 network card :in 100Mbps half duplex mode. For some reason FreeBSD chokes on it. : : DS Well then, you need to find hardware that is equally agreeable, or as close to equally agreeable as you can get, to _all_ operating systems. Running the tests on different hardware just gives the critics one more thing to be critical of. I don't belive that you can have a "level playing field" without the same hardware. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 11:49:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from beelzebubba.sysabend.org (beelzebubba.sysabend.org [208.243.107.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50FF114CC5 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:49:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id 8F522405C; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by beelzebubba.sysabend.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 8459F9A02; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:49:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:49:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Jamie Bowden To: Mike Avery Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: <199905051756.NAA14044@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 May 1999, Mike Avery wrote: :I started out as a programmer and systems analyst. And sold out and :moved into system administration. And all along, I harbored feelings Sold out? I take offense. I -ENJOY- doing Systems Administration. It's a very necessary and challenging job. Last time I looked, the perfect self correcting software and hardware hadn't yet been invented/written, so someone's got to do it. Jamie Bowden -- If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 11:53:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 887F014E9E for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:53:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15685; Wed, 5 May 1999 10:58:17 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 10:58:17 -0700 (PDT) From: To: "James A. Mutter" Cc: David Schwartz , John Reynolds~ , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Mindcruft ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I don't think you can really do that -- every OS has different hardware that works well with it. An extremely obvious example in the Mindcraft tests was the choice of RAID controller. Worked great with NT, flopped on Linux. Then Mindcraft tried to compare that with a different benchmark using a different RAID controller under Linux, claiming that the other benchmark (I think it was PCWeek?) was faulty in some way, or that the people who did that benchmark weren't giving out enough info on how they conducted the test. However, the RAID controller driver that Mindcraft used was still in beta development, and was single-threaded, as compared to the heavily tested and fully functional multi-threaded driver used in the PCWeek test. I've heard from other people that the RAID controller used in the PCWeek test doesn't perform so hot under NT. Where's the middle ground? Find some card that performs the same under both, then test the network infrastructure? Then people can claim that the poor design of the RAID driver was using too much CPU, and adversely affecting the rest of the system. Or that "in a perfect situation" the Linux driver could be made to work better than a perfectly tuned NT driver, meaning the actual operating system was better, and just lacking in drivers? Maybe a better way would be to set an amount of money, then let each team choose the hardware in the budget, based on list prices from the manufacturers. Each team gets a $15000 server and then they go head to head on performance. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Wed, 5 May 1999, James A. Mutter wrote: > :> Generally, a fair test on a level playing field. > : > : Same hardware is not a level playing field. Sensible people optimize the > :hardware for the operating system they plan to use. I could show you Linux > :and NT beating the stuffing out of FreeBSD by using my MX98713 network card > :in 100Mbps half duplex mode. For some reason FreeBSD chokes on it. > : > : DS > Well then, you need to find hardware that is equally agreeable, or as > close to equally agreeable as you can get, to _all_ operating systems. > Running the tests on different hardware just gives the critics > one more thing to be critical of. > > I don't belive that you can have a "level playing field" without the > same hardware. > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 11:59: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 567FE14E17 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:59:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:59:07 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: Cc: Subject: RE: Mindcruft ... Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:59:06 -0700 Message-ID: <000401be9729$59dad700$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Maybe a better way would be to set an amount of money, then let each team > choose the hardware in the budget, based on list prices from the > manufacturers. Each team gets a $15000 server and then they go head to > head on performance. That presumes that you are trying to measure price/performance ratio. And you would have to include the cost of the operating system in there or your comparison makes no sense. The problem with so many of these benchmarks is there's no explanation for why the methodology was chosen as it was, so it's not clear what the benchmark is attempting to measure. The recent Mindcraft benchmark of NT versus Linux is a shining example of this. Why Win98 as the client? Why four network cards? Why a RAID system? Why 1Gb of RAM? Absent any other explanation, the only conclusion we can draw is that they did things this way because Microsoft wanted them to. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 12:29:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hades.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8148D14ECA for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 12:29:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from unknown@riverstyx.net) Received: from localhost (unknown@localhost) by hades.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA17310; Wed, 5 May 1999 11:34:43 -0700 Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 11:34:43 -0700 (PDT) From: To: David Schwartz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: Mindcruft ... In-Reply-To: <000401be9729$59dad700$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well, I figure that's the only thing one of these types of benchmarks *could* measure. You're taking identical hardware and seeing what each OS can do, without considering what's best for that OS. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet On Wed, 5 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > Maybe a better way would be to set an amount of money, then let each team > > choose the hardware in the budget, based on list prices from the > > manufacturers. Each team gets a $15000 server and then they go head to > > head on performance. > > That presumes that you are trying to measure price/performance ratio. And > you would have to include the cost of the operating system in there or your > comparison makes no sense. > > The problem with so many of these benchmarks is there's no explanation for > why the methodology was chosen as it was, so it's not clear what the > benchmark is attempting to measure. > > The recent Mindcraft benchmark of NT versus Linux is a shining example of > this. Why Win98 as the client? Why four network cards? Why a RAID system? > Why 1Gb of RAM? Absent any other explanation, the only conclusion we can > draw is that they did things this way because Microsoft wanted them to. > > DS > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 12:35:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rah.star-gate.com (rah.star-gate.com [209.249.129.138]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92A9814D18 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 12:35:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Received: from rah.star-gate.com (localhost.star-gate.com [127.0.0.1]) by rah.star-gate.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA10484; Wed, 5 May 1999 12:35:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hasty@rah.star-gate.com) Message-Id: <199905051935.MAA10484@rah.star-gate.com> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: unknown@riverstyx.net Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mindcruft ... In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 May 1999 11:34:43 PDT." Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 12:35:03 -0700 From: Amancio Hasty Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeap, I always consider first the hardware irrespective of whether the OS supports it well or not 8) > Well, I figure that's the only thing one of these types of benchmarks > *could* measure. You're taking identical hardware and seeing what each OS > can do, without considering what's best for that OS. > > --- > tani hosokawa > river styx internet > > > On Wed, 5 May 1999, David Schwartz wrote: > > > > > > Maybe a better way would be to set an amount of money, then let each team > > > choose the hardware in the budget, based on list prices from the > > > manufacturers. Each team gets a $15000 server and then they go head to > > > head on performance. > > > > That presumes that you are trying to measure price/performance ratio. And > > you would have to include the cost of the operating system in there or your > > comparison makes no sense. > > > > The problem with so many of these benchmarks is there's no explanation for > > why the methodology was chosen as it was, so it's not clear what the > > benchmark is attempting to measure. > > > > The recent Mindcraft benchmark of NT versus Linux is a shining example of > > this. Why Win98 as the client? Why four network cards? Why a RAID system? > > Why 1Gb of RAM? Absent any other explanation, the only conclusion we can > > draw is that they did things this way because Microsoft wanted them to. > > > > DS > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Amancio Hasty hasty@star-gate.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 12:49:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC30915152 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 12:49:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id PAA04365; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:49:41 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:49:41 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Dale Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 May 1999, Dale Anderson wrote: > Also, are applications need to run all the time, everytime. Users > don't understand the concept of downtime, and often our job > performance is rated on up-time. Won't be using Linux in that case. :) > For these reasons, we like native applications over "Emulated > enviroments." You guys must hate AS/400s. Anyone who brandishes an IT title is more than likely clueless. Why must people continue to reinvforce this again and again? -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 13:28:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 199E514BFC; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:28:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25627; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:28:26 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505141353.0468d2a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:28:12 -0600 To: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy In-Reply-To: References: <199905051810.NAA25028@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:11 PM 5/5/99 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >Sorry if I am going to step on people's toes with this post and use a few >french words every now and then, but I am getting fucking tired of this >whole useless debate by now. It's only useless if nothing comes of it. The issues are important, and I think it's poor form to jump all over Mike like that. He is making some good points and is honestly trying to help. Don't shoot the messenger. >It seems that the people with the biggest complaints are doing NOTHING >about their situation in order to add something to the project. Only if you regard coding as the only way to add something to the project. Remember, PR is to communication. Those who are pointing out the problems -- that is, who are COMMUNICATING -- and attempting to foster more effective advocacy ARE doing something. Something very important. Their contributions are undervalued and even denigrated by some of those who are doing coding -- in particular Jordan, who actually disdains effective advocacy. >Also, speaking on advocacy and getting an income, just look at what Jim >Mock & Robert Garrett managed to pull off in their _spare_ time for >advocacy (http://advocacy.freebsd.org for the unaware). A positive contribution, certainly, but it doesn't address some of the fundamental problems that have been pointed out in this and other threads. The amount of work that is needed is about three orders of magnitude greater -- and that would just be to get BARELY CLOSE to the amount of advocacy Linux enjoys. >Advocacy can be done on multiple levels... So the argument that advocacy is >a PR job is bullshit... PR only gets to suits... It's the techies and >users one ultimately has to please and granted managers do have to be >influenced, but then again, I have always `served' under a management that >was reasonable for well explained decisions about OS implementations... The above statements reflect the attitudes which are responsible for FreeBSD's lagging position (which is getting farther behind; FreeBSD has been losing about 4% share per month, according to surveys of Internet hosts). Good PR does NOT "only get to suits." That's why Linux is growing by leaps and bounds. >So get off your fucking moaning/whining/bitching pedestal and CONTRIBUTE >damnit... Those who are fostering awareness and encouraging change ARE contributing. Coding is only one way to contribute, and at this point it is not even the most important way. Gain more mindshare and a devoted following, and the coders will follow. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 13:37: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F8FD14BFC for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 13:37:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25709; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:36:19 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505143155.04513d60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:36:07 -0600 To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: <199905051757.MAA25014@hostigos.otherwhen.com> References: <4.2.0.37.19990505105712.00b51a20@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:39 PM 5/5/99 -0500, Mike Avery wrote: >Yeah - we've all been in battles where the lesser solution won >because the boss liked the company that sold it better. Sadly, as you >get older, you'll understand where the boss is coming from. The boss >has to defend purchase decisions to people further up the chain... >people who understand even less than the boss does. A very good point! FreeBSD needs to break the "Pointy-Haired Boss Barrier." >> You've got to get a native port AND a FreeBSD-knowledgeable > > support staff at the application vendor's site that pushes FreeBSD's > > cause. This means NUMBERS, and this in turn means evangelism. > >There's a big hurdle in itself - how do you get the numbers? No, not >"how do you get people to try and use FreeBSD" but "how do you get >numbers of systems in use that the boss and developers can buy >into?" This question is key, and gives a hint as to what the most effective strategies are. Strategies with linear returns aren't enough; they must trigger INCREASING returns. Evangelistic strategies -- i.e. strategies which cause converts to further propagate the message -- always win over non-evangelistic strategies. > Linux had the same problem. The first step for them was the >distribution houses making money on the product. The next step, and >it was a big one in terms of credibility, was when the RedHat's, the >Caldera's, and the SuSe's got shelf space in BestBuy, OfficeDepot, >and other mass market outlets. These trends generated numbers >people could point to untis sold, not just downloaded and installed. That's the idea. Positive feedback. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:20: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from relay.veriguard.com (relay.veriguard.com [207.5.63.61]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 213CE1550B for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:19:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tomb_lists@heliox.com) Received: by relay.veriguard.com; id GAA28476; Wed, 5 May 1999 06:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from unknown(10.5.63.102) by relay.veriguard.com via smap (4.1) id xma028457; Wed, 5 May 99 06:19:51 -0700 Message-ID: <3730B5C0.84946ADC@heliox.com> Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:18:56 -0700 From: Tom Brown Organization: The Black Box X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Ease of use... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yet again i here the rumblings of potential contribution's to the kernel and the serious technical side of the OS. This mornings comments about contributions are not unusual in my experience. I would say two things on the subject. You can contribute very effectively without being that technical, the 'ease of use' problems for example are a lot more evident to new users than to the hard-core users. Despite what some may say I think this is a very important area of development, just look at Yahoo's comments if you want an example. But it's not that easy to get anyone to listen. I for example, have got a GENERIC kernel config file to contribute to the project. It's only attribute is that each of the drivers has a comment next to it stating what it is and comments like !!DO NOT REMOVE for those options that can land you in trouble. Having built a fair number of FreeBSD boxes I know that these comments have saved me a huge amount of time and I like to share that. So if anyone can point me in the right direction I will post them the file. Tom To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:23:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86DB0151C9 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:23:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26125; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:23:43 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505143833.04511280@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:42:21 -0600 To: Jonathan Lemon , chat@freebsd.org From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: <199905051822.NAA12099@free.pcs> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 01:22 PM 5/5/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: >Provide _constructive_ guidance and leadership. I've tried. Unfortunately, this is difficult when the NOMINAL leadership opposes effective tactics. >There probably are quite a few lurkers on the list who would be more >than happy to help, if someone would just tell them how. Not just >"go off and do XXX", but provide scripted, step-by-step instructions. I understand where you're going with this, but to whom would a "script" be read? We're not talking about a telemarketing campaign. ;-) The answer is self-replicating strategies and ideas: the "memes" I've been talking about here. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:24:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E03E5151C9 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:24:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26132; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:23:52 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505144305.04514e30@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:44:22 -0600 To: Jamie Bowden , Mike Avery From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199905051756.NAA14044@gatekeeper.itribe.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Administrators get less credit than programmers, which is sad, because they have to be programmers PLUS. Problem-solving, people management, networking, and hardware skills are also required. --Brett Glass At 02:49 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: >On Wed, 5 May 1999, Mike Avery wrote: > >:I started out as a programmer and systems analyst. And sold out and >:moved into system administration. And all along, I harbored feelings > >Sold out? I take offense. I -ENJOY- doing Systems Administration. It's >a very necessary and challenging job. Last time I looked, the perfect >self correcting software and hardware hadn't yet been invented/written, so >someone's got to do it. > >Jamie Bowden > >-- > >If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. > -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:24:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B68D615D61 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:24:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26139; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:23:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505144505.0450d2b0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:46:35 -0600 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" , Dale Anderson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 03:49 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >Anyone who brandishes an IT title is more than likely clueless. There, THAT'S the way to win customers. Not. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:27:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE1741588D for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:27:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA37658; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:27:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: James Howard Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, Brett Glass , jmutter@netwalk.com, "Viren R. Shah" , Steve Kargl , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 May 1999 11:23:32 EDT." Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:27:07 -0700 Message-ID: <37654.925939627@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The fundamental problem is that "emulation" is the wrong word here but people use it anyway. What FreeBSD offers isn't "Linux emulation", it's "Linux binary compatibility." The dividing line may seem thin, but "Emulation" conjures up all kinds of visions of the binary actually being emulated through some tortuous series of extra steps rather than a binary simply calling a different syscall table (not an extra one, just a *different* one). Be sure and try to make that point in any interviews you do; I do. [And I'm sure Brett has something to say about this, but I don't care. :)] - Jordan > On Wed, 5 May 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > On Tue, May 04, 1999 at 10:50:37PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > It does reflect the weaknesses in the current marketing and promotion > > > of FreeBSD. In particular, the article mentions the lack of native > > > application support. (Running Linux binaries under emulation isn't > > > acceptable to the IT crowd; the platform must be SUPPORTED by the > > > application vendor.) > > I've been using FreeBSD for years and have no objection to running Linux > programs in emulation mode. However, I have seen this by IT people > before. Maybe it would be more advantagous to rephrase it as "Native > Linux Binary" support or something similar just to catch those in IT who > aren't bright enough to understand what that means. > > Jamie > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:27:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E684A1588D for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:27:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA37675; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:27:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Dale Anderson" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 May 1999 11:02:35 CDT." Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:27:57 -0700 Message-ID: <37672.925939677@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Not bright enough to understan d ????" What us IT people mean, is that running an application under emulati on means it will run a little slower, as that middle abstraction layer has to e mulate and that takes CPU cycles. Another reason is that if you talk to some s Like I said in another posting, "emulation" is not the correct term to be using here then since no "middle abstraction layer" is being used in the case of Linux binary compatibility (see, there's the new phrase you should be using right there :). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:30: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42D911550B for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:30:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA37697; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:30:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, jmutter@netwalk.com, "Viren R. Shah" , Steve Kargl , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 May 1999 10:54:52 MDT." <4.2.0.37.19990505102722.00c748f0@localhost> Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:30:11 -0700 Message-ID: <37693.925939811@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Do more writing like you did for Smart Reseller. I haven't seen anything since that last article and you got more than a little amount of positive reinforcement from me over it, so it's also not correct to say that I and others have hated every crackpot idea you've ever brought to this table, just many of them. :-) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:36:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sun-1.crystalsugar.com (unknown [207.0.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A4EA15947 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:35:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from danderso@crystalsugar.com) Received: from sun-1.crystalsugar.com by sun-1.crystalsugar.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA08422; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:35:56 -0500 Received: from mail (mail.crystalsugar.com [207.0.65.31]) by ns.crystalsugar.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id QAA29765 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:35:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from JCEDO-Message_Server by mail with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 05 May 1999 16:33:47 -0500 Message-Id: X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 5.5 Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 16:33:28 -0500 From: "Dale Anderson" To: Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So, your saying that FreeBSD can read in the binary and begin executing = machine instructions without any processing in between, or is the kernel = doing some sort of interpertation of the instructions to make then run = properly????? I'm just not that familiar with "Linux Binary Compatibility.= " >>> "Jordan K. Hubbard" 05/05/99 04:27PM >>> > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Not bright enough to = understan d ????" What us IT people mean, is that running an application under = emulati on means it will run a little slower, as that middle abstraction layer has = to e mulate and that takes CPU cycles. Another reason is that if you talk to = some s Like I said in another posting, "emulation" is not the correct term to be using here then since no "middle abstraction layer" is being used in the case of Linux binary compatibility (see, there's the new phrase you should be using right there :). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:37:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (mta.xtra.co.nz [203.96.92.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD8BB14BE7 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:37:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from junkmale@pop3.xtra.co.nz) Received: from wocker ([210.55.152.128]) by mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz (InterMail v04.00.02.07 201-227-108) with SMTP id <19990505213955.KWWB7202931.mta1-rme@wocker> for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:39:55 +1200 From: "Dan Langille" Organization: The FreeBSD Diary To: chat@freebsd.org Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:37:54 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Reply-To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz In-reply-to: <4.2.0.37.19990505143833.04511280@localhost> References: <199905051822.NAA12099@free.pcs> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Message-Id: <19990505213955.KWWB7202931.mta1-rme@wocker> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 5 May 99, at 14:42, Brett Glass wrote: > At 01:22 PM 5/5/99 -0500, Jonathan Lemon wrote: > > >Provide _constructive_ guidance and leadership. > > I've tried. Unfortunately, this is difficult when the NOMINAL leadership > opposes effective tactics. To be fair: From what I've read, it is not only the "NOMINAL leadership" which opposes your tactics. It appears to be much wider than the leadership. As for "effective tactics", it is the definitiion of effective which appears to be in dispute. Specifically the tactics you propose (and which presumably you assume to be effective) are not deemed to be effective by large numbers of people. -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/freebsd/ NZ FreeBSD User Group - http://www.nzfug.nz.freebsd.org/ The Racing System - http://www.racingsystem.com/racingsystem.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:39:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EFBC14BE7 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:39:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA37798; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:39:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, jmutter@netwalk.com, "Viren R. Shah" , Steve Kargl , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 May 1999 10:54:52 MDT." <4.2.0.37.19990505102722.00c748f0@localhost> Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:39:24 -0700 Message-ID: <37794.925940364@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Doing a better job would take a great deal of time and effort. If I could > arrange, somehow, to generate enough of an income stream from it, I'd do > it. Sorry, that's a cop-out attitude and it's like saying "I'd like to learn to climb, but I lack the funds to ascend Everest." You don't have to go for the #1 difficulty challenge right away and, in fact, it's almost always foolhardy to try and start hammering in the big end of the wedge. Pick something small and start from there, as many fine efforts have been started. You think the folks who created freebsdzine, daemonnews, the freebsd diary, freebsdrocks and many other fine (and effective) advocacy sites got paid money for it? You think it takes a personal fortune in the bank to write an effective magazine article? If you think either of those things then there are a number of people on this list who will jump to be the first to correct the misconception. And I don't want to hear anything about how these things would be nice but "they don't address the bigger picture" - you address the bigger picture by addressing many smaller pictures until you've gained the experience and the momentum necessary to tackle the big one. There are so few people who are both highly vocal AND who are leading by example, however, that I don't see critical mass as being anywhere close and it's not a leadership problem so much as a dysfunctional workforce problem. A lot of people *complain* about how bad advocacy is but very few actual do anything concrete about it, or even worse (Brett) they somehow come to the conclusion that bashing the few folks who *are* doing some kind of advocacy (and I'm not flying to Japan for 3 days at the end of this month for my *health*, to cite one example) is somehow a productive and winning strategy. That's like saying "we're grossly outnumbered, the enemy is attacking in human waves and we're down to 2 guys and a sergeant. Quick, somebody shoot the sergeant!" If that's not screwy, self-defeating behavior in action, I don't know what is. - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:40:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C5D614ED4; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:40:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA37826; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:40:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, FreeBSD Advocacy Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 May 1999 14:28:12 MDT." <4.2.0.37.19990505141353.0468d2a0@localhost> Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 14:40:44 -0700 Message-ID: <37823.925940444@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > are undervalued and even denigrated by some of those who are doing coding -- > in particular Jordan, who actually disdains effective advocacy. Stop putting words in my mouth, Brett, I'm getting tired of it. I disdain a lot of what you have to offer but that doesn't mean that I disdain "effective advocacy", ye gods, is it possible for your ego to be any more inflated here? How do you live with yourself? - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:46:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw1adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw1.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C4E5158A6 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:46:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-10-207.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.10.207]) by mail-gw1adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA24826; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:45:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03322; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:47:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:47:06 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: Brett Glass Cc: Jamie Bowden , Mike Avery , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Message-ID: <19990505164705.A3297@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <199905051756.NAA14044@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <4.2.0.37.19990505144305.04514e30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990505144305.04514e30@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, May 05, 1999 at 02:44:22PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 5, 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Administrators get less credit than programmers, which is sad, because > they have to be programmers PLUS. Problem-solving, people management, > networking, and hardware skills are also required. There seem to be more anti-administrator ("that stupid admin," "administrator: person who keeps things broken") people out there than otherwise. > > --Brett Glass > > At 02:49 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Jamie Bowden wrote: > >On Wed, 5 May 1999, Mike Avery wrote: > > > >:I started out as a programmer and systems analyst. And sold out and > >:moved into system administration. And all along, I harbored feelings > > > >Sold out? I take offense. I -ENJOY- doing Systems Administration. It's > >a very necessary and challenging job. Last time I looked, the perfect > >self correcting software and hardware hadn't yet been invented/written, so > >someone's got to do it. > > > >Jamie Bowden > > > >-- > > > >If we've got to fight over grep, sign me up. But boggle can go. > > -Ted Faber (on Hasbro's request for removal of /usr/games/boggle) > > > > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > -- Chris Costello My BBS is baroque now. Please call Bach later with your Handel. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:58:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail-gw1adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (mail-gw1.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BF121535A for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:58:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from chris@holly.dyndns.org) Received: from holly.dyndns.org (ppp-207-193-10-207.hstntx.swbell.net [207.193.10.207]) by mail-gw1adm.rcsntx.swbell.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA06002; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:58:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from chris@localhost) by holly.dyndns.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA03415; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:59:23 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from chris) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:59:22 -0500 From: Chris Costello To: unknown@riverstyx.net Cc: David Schwartz , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Mindcruft ... Message-ID: <19990505165921.B2532@holly.dyndns.org> Reply-To: chris@calldei.com References: <000401be9729$59dad700$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.96.1i In-Reply-To: ; from unknown@riverstyx.net on Wed, May 05, 1999 at 11:34:43AM -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 5, 1999, unknown@riverstyx.net wrote: > Well, I figure that's the only thing one of these types of benchmarks > *could* measure. You're taking identical hardware and seeing what each OS > can do, without considering what's best for that OS. The way I figure it, similar hardware isn't nearly as important to companies/consumers as similar price. Spend $2000 on an NT system and $2000 on a FreeBSD system and then compare. Let's see the results when you get back. -- Chris Costello The day Microsoft make something that doesn't suck is the day they start making vacuum cleaners. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 14:59:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D879615338 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 14:59:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id RAA06603; Wed, 5 May 1999 17:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:59:19 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: Brett Glass Cc: Dale Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990505144505.0450d2b0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 03:49 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > >Anyone who brandishes an IT title is more than likely clueless. > > There, THAT'S the way to win customers. Not. Are you illiterate or am I just being too subtle again? Notice I said 'brandishes' and 'more than likely'. By 'brandishes' I mean 'someone to whom titles and TLAs mean more than hard facts.' I thought that was clear. You also cleverly snipped the sentence that followed the above in which I qualified the statement. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 15: 1:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cygnus.rush.net (cygnus.rush.net [209.45.245.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A326154B2 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@rush.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by cygnus.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA07642; Wed, 5 May 1999 17:21:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:21:51 -0500 (EST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Tom Brown Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Ease of use... In-Reply-To: <3730B5C0.84946ADC@heliox.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 May 1999, Tom Brown wrote: > Yet again i here the rumblings of potential contribution's to the kernel > and the serious technical side of the OS. > This mornings comments about contributions are not unusual in my > experience. I would say two things on the subject. > > You can contribute very effectively without being that technical, the > 'ease of use' problems for example are a lot more evident to new users > than to the hard-core users. Despite what some may say I think this is a > very important area of development, just look at Yahoo's comments if you > want an example. > > But it's not that easy to get anyone to listen. > > I for example, have got a GENERIC kernel config file to contribute to > the project. It's only attribute is that each of the drivers has a > comment next to it stating what it is and comments like !!DO NOT REMOVE > for those options that can land you in trouble. Having built a fair > number of FreeBSD boxes I know that these comments have saved me a huge > amount of time and I like to share that. > > So if anyone can point me in the right direction I will post them the > file. you should supply diffs relative to -current, the "easiest" way to do this is to download your own copy of the repository and use "cvs" http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/synching.html#CVSUP you can then submit PRs (man send-pr) and attach these"diffs" most PRs (problem reports) in the database with *PATCH* or something next to them will get looked at with feedback given to you. i'm not a commiter, but i have had 2 or 3 minor things commited for me by following the protocol. I'm even willing to do a small tutorial over IRC, just get on efnet, join #freebsd and look for "zb^3". for cvsup, use this file: *default host=cvsup.FreeBSD.org *default base=/usr *default prefix=/home/ncvs *default release=cvs *default delete use-rel-suffix *default compress src-all make sure you have a directory /home/ncvs to store the code in, it's about 500megs but the transfer will be compressed. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 15: 3:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8527D1598D for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:03:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26578; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:03:16 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505154151.04423340@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 15:47:28 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37654.925939627@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:27 PM 5/5/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: >The fundamental problem is that "emulation" is the wrong word here but >people use it anyway. What FreeBSD offers isn't "Linux emulation", >it's "Linux binary compatibility." The dividing line may seem thin, >but "Emulation" conjures up all kinds of visions of the binary >actually being emulated through some tortuous series of extra steps >rather than a binary simply calling a different syscall table (not an >extra one, just a *different* one). > >Be sure and try to make that point in any interviews you do; I do. >[And I'm sure Brett has something to say about this, but I don't care. :)] Of *course* I have something to say about it. Yes, it's more efficient than what is often called "emulation," and that's good. But it's still not what the application was designed to run on, and that's what the Pointy Haired Boss cares about. The product is less likely to be tested on the emulator; tech support won't know the emulator's quirks; the file system conventions are different; yada yada yada. Given that Linux is free, he will have NO significant reason not to switch OSes. In fact, the availability of the application for Linux is by itself ample motivation to do so. People adopt OSes to run applications, not the other way around. It may be regrettable, but it's so. IBM learned it the hard way. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 15: 3:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E8C1551A for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:03:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26583; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:03:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505155002.04424e90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 15:52:43 -0600 To: junkmale@xtra.co.nz, chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: <19990505213955.KWWB7202931.mta1-rme@wocker> References: <4.2.0.37.19990505143833.04511280@localhost> <199905051822.NAA12099@free.pcs> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:37 AM 5/6/99 +1200, Dan Langille wrote: >From what I've read, it is not only the "NOMINAL leadership" which opposes >your tactics. It appears to be much wider than the leadership. Not based on my e-mail. It seems mainly to be a few of the leaders and then some flamers. I get a great deal of support via private e-mail from people who don't want to get flamed. Look what happened to Mike Avery. One posting -- and WHAM. And it was a good posting, too. >As for "effective tactics", it is the definitiion of effective which >appears to be in dispute. Specifically the tactics you propose (and which >presumably you assume to be effective) are not deemed to be effective by >large numbers of people. The difference is that I have proof. The increasing popularity of Linux and the demise of OS/2 are clear demonstrations of what works and what does not. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 15: 3:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B91415CBA for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:03:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26589; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:03:30 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505155301.04422590@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 15:59:15 -0600 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <37794.925940364@zippy.cdrom.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 02:39 PM 5/5/99 -0700, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Doing a better job would take a great deal of time and effort. If I could > > arrange, somehow, to generate enough of an income stream from it, I'd do > > it. > >Sorry, that's a cop-out attitude and it's like saying "I'd like to >learn to climb, but I lack the funds to ascend Everest." Easily said by someone who's PAID to work on FreeBSD. >You don't >have to go for the #1 difficulty challenge right away and, in fact, >it's almost always foolhardy to try and start hammering in the big end >of the wedge. Pick something small and start from there, as many fine >efforts have been started. Any effective effort is going to need more funding and more effort than any one person can put in without breaking the bank. > You think the folks who created >freebsdzine, daemonnews, the freebsd diary, freebsdrocks and many >other fine (and effective) advocacy sites got paid money for it? You >think it takes a personal fortune in the bank to write an effective >magazine article? Despite all of those efforts, FreeBSD's share is lagging. Clearly, something else is needed. >A lot of people *complain* about how bad advocacy >is but very few actual do anything concrete about it, or even worse >(Brett) they somehow come to the conclusion that bashing the few folks >who *are* doing some kind of advocacy (and I'm not flying to Japan for >3 days at the end of this month for my *health*, to cite one example) >is somehow a productive and winning strategy. Uh, it's your *job*, Jordan. You're paid to do it. I'd like to be flown to Japan, too, but unfortunately no benefactor has appeared. > That's like saying >"we're grossly outnumbered, the enemy is attacking in human waves and >we're down to 2 guys and a sergeant. Quick, somebody shoot the >sergeant!" We're down to 2 guys because the sergeant shot the rest. Shooting down advocacy, Jordan -- which is what you've been doing -- is the equivalent of massive losses from "friendly" fire. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 15: 3:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 128FB15CE9 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26602; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:03:44 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505160228.00bfff00@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 16:03:07 -0600 To: "Matthew N. Dodd" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: Dale Anderson , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.37.19990505144505.0450d2b0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 05:59 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >Are you illiterate or am I just being too subtle again? >Notice I said 'brandishes' and 'more than likely'. > >By 'brandishes' I mean 'someone to whom titles and TLAs mean more than >hard facts.' I thought that was clear. Nope, it wasn't. Sorry if I missed your meaning. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 15: 3:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A35A6155C3 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA26594; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:03:36 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505155946.04427750@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 16:02:04 -0600 To: chris@calldei.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: Jamie Bowden , Mike Avery , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990505164705.A3297@holly.dyndns.org> References: <4.2.0.37.19990505144305.04514e30@localhost> <199905051756.NAA14044@gatekeeper.itribe.net> <4.2.0.37.19990505144305.04514e30@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:47 PM 5/5/99 -0500, Chris Costello wrote: > There seem to be more anti-administrator ("that stupid admin," >"administrator: person who keeps things broken") people out >there than otherwise. That's probably because a good admin can do a whole lot of things that pay better, and so the best ones often graduate to a more financially rewarding job. Only truly savvy companies pay their admins well to STAY admins. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 15: 6:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E7031553E for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:06:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07772; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:06:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05919; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:06:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 18:06:22 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: "Matthew N. Dodd" Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dale Anderson , Brett Glass Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-May-99 Matthew N. Dodd wrote: > On Wed, 5 May 1999, Brett Glass wrote: >> At 03:49 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Matthew N. Dodd wrote: >> >Anyone who brandishes an IT title is more than likely clueless. >> >> There, THAT'S the way to win customers. Not. > > Are you illiterate or am I just being too subtle again? > > Notice I said 'brandishes' and 'more than likely'. > > By 'brandishes' I mean 'someone to whom titles and TLAs mean more than > hard facts.' I thought that was clear. > > You also cleverly snipped the sentence that followed the above in which I > qualified the statement. I think his point (and I could be wrong) is that if an IT reads your message, they will be turned off. Kernel hackers and other people may get your message perfectly fine, but you have to consider the entire scope of your audience. If someone goes to their IT manager to request permission to setup a FreeBSD box, and then he/she happens to stumble across a quote like that while researching FreeBSD for some reason, then the manager may tell the employee no just out of spite. --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 15:24:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 488C9154A9; Wed, 5 May 1999 15:24:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA09691; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:24:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA22506; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:24:42 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990505141353.0468d2a0@localhost> Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 18:24:48 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: FreeBSD Advocacy , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-May-99 Brett Glass wrote: > Those who are fostering awareness and encouraging change ARE contributing. > Coding is only one way to contribute, and at this point it is not even > the most important way. Gain more mindshare and a devoted following, and > the coders will follow. I agree. As I've said a couple of times now, the CS department here at Va Tech is considering switching from FreeBSD to Linux. All of the technical staff in the department support FreeBSD, but some of the professors don't use that to make their decisions. They decide based on what they read in PC Magazine over breakfast. They are looking specifically for FreeBSD in a shrink-wrapped boxes, or books on FreeBSD. They would love to see "Mastering FreeBSD", "FreeBSD Unleashed!", "FreeBSD for Dummies", etc. They are trying to satisfy employer's wants, and right now they see more companies going for Linux than FreeBSD. Technical merits such as a unified kernel and userland, central source repository, and the ports system can only get us so far. We each have to advocate in as many different ways as we can. And as Brett has said, marketing and coding are two different things and not people are good at one are good at the other. I'm a sys admin/coder who aspires to being a kernel hacker someday. Marketing is not my strength, so while I'll do what I can, some people are going to promote FreeBSD differently and in some ways more effectively than I do. > --Brett Glass --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 16: 7:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from sasami.jurai.net (sasami.jurai.net [63.67.141.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E25315907 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:07:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from winter@jurai.net) Received: from localhost (winter@localhost) by sasami.jurai.net (8.8.8/8.8.7) with SMTP id TAA07680; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:07:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:07:36 -0400 (EDT) From: "Matthew N. Dodd" To: John Baldwin Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Dale Anderson , Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 May 1999, John Baldwin wrote: > I think his point (and I could be wrong) is that if an IT reads your > message, they will be turned off. Kernel hackers and other people may > get your message perfectly fine, but you have to consider the entire > scope of your audience. If someone goes to their IT manager to > request permission to setup a FreeBSD box, and then he/she happens to > stumble across a quote like that while researching FreeBSD for some > reason, then the manager may tell the employee no just out of spite. Further reinforcing the notion that IT people are morons. Its a vicious circle it is. I suppose that if I stated that "all IT people had better not go jumping off bridges if they know whats good for them." then the above IT person would run out the the nearest bridge and commence to flinging themselves from it out of spite. If only my words carried such weight. -- | Matthew N. Dodd | 78 280Z | 75 164E | 84 245DL | FreeBSD/NetBSD/Sprite/VMS | | winter@jurai.net | This Space For Rent | ix86,sparc,m68k,pmax,vax | | http://www.jurai.net/~winter | Are you k-rad elite enough for my webpage? | To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 16:30:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from unix1.digital-web.net (unix1.digital-web.net [216.65.27.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB8E214F46 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:30:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from joseph@randomnetworks.com) Received: from localhost (jmscott@localhost) by unix1.digital-web.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA27955 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:26:44 -0400 (EDT) From: Joseph Scott X-Sender: jmscott@unix1.digital-web.net Reply-To: Joseph Scott To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: FBSD users in Sacramento, CA Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org All this talk of advocacy reminded me of something, I just started a new job in Sacramento, CA and I've been hunting around for a FreeBSD users group for Sacramento. So far I haven't come up with anything. So if someone knows of an existing group can you drop me a line? If there really is no group then maybe we/I can try and start something up during the summer ( after I actually move to the Sacramento area, commuting is not what I want to do forever ). My office is at CSU Sac, so it would be nice to meet close to that area :-) While I'm at it, any ISP's in the Sac area that are FreeBSD heads? Joseph Scott joseph@randomnetworks.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 16:35:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pokey.local.net (tcs7-04.netwalk.net [206.175.76.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D48F315350 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:35:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmutter@netwalk.com) Received: from insomnia (insomnia.local.net [192.168.2.3]) by pokey.local.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id SAA69903; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:07:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jmutter@insomnia.local.net) Reply-To: From: "James A. Mutter" To: "Brett Glass" , "Jonathan Lemon" , Subject: RE: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:10:12 -0400 Message-ID: <000001be9744$0c23ddc0$0302a8c0@local.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2173.0 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990505143833.04511280@localhost> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > >There probably are quite a few lurkers on the list who > would be more > >than happy to help, if someone would just tell them how. Not just > >"go off and do XXX", but provide scripted, step-by-step > instructions. > > I understand where you're going with this, but to whom > would a "script" > be read? We're not talking about a telemarketing campaign. ;-) The > answer is self-replicating strategies and ideas: the > "memes" I've been > talking about here. > I'm currently using Outlook, I apologize if this format isn't what it could be. That said... Brett, I've followed this list for a while now and I've seen you write quite abit about the theory behind effective marketing. I've also seen you write quite abit about what's wrong with the current strategy. What I have not seen however, is what you think should be done to correct the current situation? I don't want another discussion about memes, I want to know exactly what it is that you think we as advocates should be doing to promote the project. My apologies if this has been brought up before, I've not seen it. Jim To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 16:45:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtprtp (smtprtp.NortelNetworks.com [192.122.117.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04D50158F8 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 16:45:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atrens@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from zcars01t by smtprtp; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:41:40 -0400 Received: from hcarp00g.ca.nortel.com by zcars01t; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:41:11 -0400 Received: from hcarp00g.ca.nortel.com (hcarp00g.ca.nortel.com [47.196.31.114]) by hcarp00g.ca.nortel.com (8.9.3/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA14585 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:42:04 -0400 (EDT) From: "Andrew Atrens" Reply-To: "Andrew Atrens" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: mindcraft open benchmark (aka attempt #3) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.mindcraft.com/openbenchmark.html Since this is an `open' benchmark, are there any plans for FreeBSD involvement? -- +-- | Andrew Atrens Nortel Networks, Ottawa, Canada. | | All opinions expressed are my own, not those of any employer. | --+ Heller's Law: The first myth of management is that it exists. Johnson's Corollary: Nobody really knows what is going on anywhere within the organization. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 17:15: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BC151502A for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 17:14:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: from akane (ppp112.pm3-0.pdx.dsinw.com [207.149.41.112]) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA04645; Wed, 5 May 1999 17:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:13:05 -0700 () From: Rick Hamell To: Dale Anderson Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: hamellr@dsinw.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Not bright enough to >understand ????" What us IT people mean, is that running an >application under emulation means it will run a little slower, as that >middle abstraction layer has to emulate and that takes CPU cycles. >Another reason is that if you talk to some sort of tech support for a >product that isn't running quite right under emulation, they will just >tell us to "Go get the real platform to run it on." > Also, are applications need to run all the time, everytime. Users >don't understand the concept of downtime, and often our job performance >is rated on up-time. For these reasons, we like native applications over >"Emulated enviroments." Good points. The problem here seems to be the generally held principle that Linux emulation on FreeBSD in most cases out performs Linux itself. In one place a friend who could not get a native linux application running at all in Linux says it runs flawlessly under emulation. BUT, right now for the FreeBSD project, Linux emulation is it until we have a bigger user base and can approach the big guys with hardcore numbers. "10 million people currently use FreeBSD v X.x mostly in server applications. What are the chances that we'll see a native build of your product? If you need to know anything specific then here are the answers." Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 17:38:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4483814E22 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 17:38:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: from akane (ppp112.pm3-0.pdx.dsinw.com [207.149.41.112]) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id RAA05272; Wed, 5 May 1999 17:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 17:36:22 -0700 () From: Rick Hamell To: chris@calldei.com Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: <19990505164705.A3297@holly.dyndns.org> Message-ID: X-X-Sender: hamellr@dsinw.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Administrators get less credit than programmers, which is sad, because > > they have to be programmers PLUS. Problem-solving, people management, > > networking, and hardware skills are also required. > > There seem to be more anti-administrator ("that stupid admin," > "administrator: person who keeps things broken") people out > there than otherwise. And if I had a dollar for every case where it was warranted... Even in my own company. :) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 17:46:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D51115910 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 17:46:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from lot.gsoft.com.au (lot.gsoft.com.au [203.38.152.106]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA23961; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:16:05 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 10:16:04 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Dale Anderson Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 05-May-99 Dale Anderson wrote: > So, your saying that FreeBSD can read in the binary and begin executing > machine instructions without any processing in between, or is the kernel > doing some sort of interpertation of the instructions to make then run > properly????? I'm just not that familiar with "Linux Binary Compatibility." Well, given the instructions are x86 code then the CPU DOESN'T do any extra processing to run them. The extra work is done on system calls, but it IS a fairly minor hit since its all done in the kernel. ie its not emulation in the sense of emulation being a C64 emulator for example :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 18:22:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pop02.globecomm.net (pop02.globecomm.net [206.253.129.186]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41C0D15A0A for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:22:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from zen@buddhist.com) Received: from WhizKid (r32.bfm.org [208.18.213.128]) by pop02.globecomm.net (8.9.0/8.8.0) with SMTP id VAA04932; Wed, 5 May 1999 21:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990505202120.0096adc0@mail.bfm.org> X-Sender: stanislav@mail.bfm.org X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 20:21:20 -0500 To: "Dale Anderson" , From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 16:33 05-05-1999 -0500, Dale Anderson wrote: > So, your saying that FreeBSD can read in the binary and begin > executing machine instructions without any processing in between, Yes, that's what he is saying. --- Want to design your own web counter? Get GCL 2.10 from http://www.whizkidtech.net/gcl/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 18:33:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E350015172 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:33:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27815; Wed, 5 May 1999 21:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 21:31:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: James Howard , jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, Brett Glass , jmutter@netwalk.com, "Viren R. Shah" , Steve Kargl , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: <37654.925939627@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've always described it to students and friends as "System Call Translation" (which I guess technically its not that either) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 5 May 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > The fundamental problem is that "emulation" is the wrong word here but > people use it anyway. What FreeBSD offers isn't "Linux emulation", > it's "Linux binary compatibility." The dividing line may seem thin, > but "Emulation" conjures up all kinds of visions of the binary > actually being emulated through some tortuous series of extra steps > rather than a binary simply calling a different syscall table (not an > extra one, just a *different* one). > > Be sure and try to make that point in any interviews you do; I do. > [And I'm sure Brett has something to say about this, but I don't care. :)] > > - Jordan > > > On Wed, 5 May 1999, Josef Grosch wrote: > > > > > On Tue, May 04, 1999 at 10:50:37PM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > > > > It does reflect the weaknesses in the current marketing and promotion > > > > of FreeBSD. In particular, the article mentions the lack of native > > > > application support. (Running Linux binaries under emulation isn't > > > > acceptable to the IT crowd; the platform must be SUPPORTED by the > > > > application vendor.) > > > > I've been using FreeBSD for years and have no objection to running Linux > > programs in emulation mode. However, I have seen this by IT people > > before. Maybe it would be more advantagous to rephrase it as "Native > > Linux Binary" support or something similar just to catch those in IT who > > aren't bright enough to understand what that means. > > > > Jamie > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 18:48:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FB53158DC for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:48:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27948; Wed, 5 May 1999 21:47:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 21:47:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: Brett Glass , jgrosch@MooseRiver.com, jmutter@netwalk.com, "Viren R. Shah" , Steve Kargl , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: <37794.925940364@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've taken the side of the "grassroots" evangelism that seems to work very well. I'm steering students who are complaining about thier RedHat installations towards FreeBSD , one even said, "I like Salckware better than Redhat, Redhat just screwed my machine up", and I said "If you like Slackware and are familiar with it, try FreeBSD, its more stable, and its probably what you are looking for." The student now loves FreeBSD, I have other students willing to work on a common driver model (bus spacing) for FreeBSD/NetBSD (one professor here is a NetBSD fanatic, it was easy to get students credits for this one) I feel that for us to get overactive about Marketing that it would be a downfall, we had this discussion on #unix today. I would rather be informative than make a buzzword out of "FreeBSD", and I take every chance to let people know about FreeBSD. I'm even prepared to come early to Monterey to help with the terminal room setup because I know its an important part of FreeBSD getting some exposure. We have more users now than we've ever had, so how can you say that our marketing strategy is failing miserably? (Brett?) Some of us are more fanatic about FreeBSD than you think, but fanatic in a different way, we don;t beat people over the head with it. We wear it, we use it, we speak about it, we are proud of it. The people ask, and we explain it. It works. I personally applaud Jordan, we've met on a couple of occasions, one very recently, and we've talked a bit on IRC. Brett, I'm not saying your ideas are all wrong, but insulting people is not the way to get people to listen to you. Your eposts on memes were very good, and when you present things that way, you make alot of sense. In fact, even though I don't particularly like what you say half the time, I have respect for your beliefs, doesn;t mean I agree with them all the time. Anyway I'm tired and repeating myself. I think credit should be given where credit is due. You also have to understand that FreeBSD has done well with calm marketing rather than rabid supporters beating people over the head with a penguin. You can't stand the linux people so much, and you hate Stallman's ideas, yet you are willing to resort to the same methods they use to market themselves. anyway, good night, I have to finish reading my mail. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ On Wed, 5 May 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > Doing a better job would take a great deal of time and effort. If I could > > arrange, somehow, to generate enough of an income stream from it, I'd do > > it. > > Sorry, that's a cop-out attitude and it's like saying "I'd like to > learn to climb, but I lack the funds to ascend Everest." You don't > have to go for the #1 difficulty challenge right away and, in fact, > it's almost always foolhardy to try and start hammering in the big end > of the wedge. Pick something small and start from there, as many fine > efforts have been started. You think the folks who created > freebsdzine, daemonnews, the freebsd diary, freebsdrocks and many > other fine (and effective) advocacy sites got paid money for it? You > think it takes a personal fortune in the bank to write an effective > magazine article? If you think either of those things then there are > a number of people on this list who will jump to be the first to > correct the misconception. > > And I don't want to hear anything about how these things would be nice > but "they don't address the bigger picture" - you address the bigger > picture by addressing many smaller pictures until you've gained the > experience and the momentum necessary to tackle the big one. > > There are so few people who are both highly vocal AND who are leading > by example, however, that I don't see critical mass as being anywhere > close and it's not a leadership problem so much as a dysfunctional > workforce problem. A lot of people *complain* about how bad advocacy > is but very few actual do anything concrete about it, or even worse > (Brett) they somehow come to the conclusion that bashing the few folks > who *are* doing some kind of advocacy (and I'm not flying to Japan for > 3 days at the end of this month for my *health*, to cite one example) > is somehow a productive and winning strategy. That's like saying > "we're grossly outnumbered, the enemy is attacking in human waves and > we're down to 2 guys and a sergeant. Quick, somebody shoot the > sergeant!" If that's not screwy, self-defeating behavior in action, I > don't know what is. > > - Jordan > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 18:54:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33EB2158DC for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:54:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA38853; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:55:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: "Dale Anderson" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 May 1999 16:33:28 CDT." Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 18:55:00 -0700 Message-ID: <38849.925955700@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So, your saying that FreeBSD can read in the binary and begin > executing machine instructions without any processing in between, or Correct. It's still an x86 binary and everything in it that's not trapping to the kernel for services is going to be executed exactly as it is under Linux; its shared libraries will be loaded (out of some part of /compat/linux/...), its accesses to many common system devices (like the vga console) dealt with appropriately by compatibility support in the driver, etc. As far as the binary's concerned, it's running on a Linux box. When it makes a system call, that goes through whatever syscall table has been mapped in with the process by the image activator (the bit which handles getting /bin/ls into memory so it can actually run) and if it's a Linux binary image activator, it simply maps in a different syscall table than the FreeBSD ELF binary image activator does. No extra overhead, just a switch pointing in a different direction (so to speak). - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 19: 0:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dsinw.com (dsinw.com [207.149.40.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A90C5158DC for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:00:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hamellr@dsinw.com) Received: from akane (ppp122.pm3-0.pdx.dsinw.com [207.149.41.122]) by dsinw.com (8.8.8/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA08678; Wed, 5 May 1999 18:59:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 18:58:56 -0700 () From: Rick Hamell To: Pat Lynch Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-X-Sender: hamellr@dsinw.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > I'm even prepared to come early to Monterey to help with the terminal room > setup because I know its an important part of FreeBSD getting some > exposure. We have more users now than we've ever had, so how can you say > that our marketing strategy is failing miserably? (Brett?) We're getting vanity licence plates for it...:) Rick To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 19:15:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C2BB14E3A for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:15:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA38918; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:15:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 May 1999 15:59:15 MDT." <4.2.0.37.19990505155301.04422590@localhost> Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 19:15:30 -0700 Message-ID: <38914.925956930@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Easily said by someone who's PAID to work on FreeBSD. I've never made any secret of the fact that WC pays my salary and pulling it out to defend your argument only shows how tenuous your position in this whole sorry argument is. I mean c'mon, let's be honest about basic Brett Glass 101 here: It's *always* been your pattern to cop-out when actual action is called for, attacking whatever random issue you can manage to snag out of the air in hopes of changing the subject, and this is no different. The number of people who have contributed effective advocacy for free makes the question of who's paid and who's not irrelevant to this discussion and it's almost as ridiculous as your frequent assertion that "everything people have been doing is obviously ineffective because Linux is willing", a highly defeatist argument which is both insulting to the current advocates and seriously unlikely to bring any new ones to the table, also making a mockery of your claims of wanting to help the project's advocacy program. Oh, but what a profitless exercise to attempt to point *this* out to you! The screams and denunciations! You're the guy yelling loudly, as he retreats from the fight, about how effective and brave he fighter is and anyone who says otherwise is just a big liar. You just can't argue with this guy about what a shmuck he is, so deep is is own self-delusion, and they usually have him typecast in all good chinese martial arts comedy movies, wearing big teeth and hiding behind his buddy who can actually fight (and who gets to end all the fights this wacky guy starts). Maybe this is funny for a non-western audience, but I've never found it very funny in these movies and I don't find you very funny for the same reason. :-) > We're down to 2 guys because the sergeant shot the rest. Shooting So far as I've seen, I've only shot down one or two guys who'd gone totally battle crazy and were as much a danger to their own men as to the other side. I see plenty of people in the FreeBSD advocacy trenches, alive and miraculously un-holed for people who've been "shot", and one guy running rapidly away towards the rear, screaming something about running away not being his idea at all on account of him being very fearless and brave, it's just the damn *seargent's* fault that yadda yadda... Sorry, I lost it, he was moving fast and went rapidly out of audible range. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 19:16:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (CJC26.RESNET.CORNELL.EDU [128.253.234.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC72114A2F for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:16:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) Received: from localhost (cjc26@localhost) by cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA14516 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 22:16:39 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc26@cornell.edu) X-Authentication-Warning: cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu: cjc26 owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 02:16:39 +0000 (GMT) From: a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality X-Sender: cjc26@cjc26.resnet.cornell.edu To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 May 1999, Pat Lynch wrote: > Some of us are more fanatic about FreeBSD than you think, but fanatic in a > different way, we don;t beat people over the head with it. We wear it, we > use it, we speak about it, we are proud of it. The people ask, and we > explain it. It works. Hello, FreeBSD semi-newbie (been using it for 4 months) here. I almost hate to say this, but what you said above is pretty much the main reason why I switched to freeBSD from slackware linux--because its supporters don't seem to be foaming at the mouth :) I know you shouldn't choose an os based on the attitudes of the people using it, *BUT* it was getting to the point where I couldn't stand the almost religious devotion of linux supporters. I was pleasantly surprised to find after testing it out that FreeBSD also happens to be better designed and more consistent than the myriads of linux distros. So, my point is, by using linux marketing tactics, you not only might not get the `market share' you want, you might also in the process scare more thoughtful people away. Besides, if the only people we can convert with `evangelism' are clueless IT managers and teenage script kiddies, maybe we're better off without them? :) Cliff Crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- i l i k e o a t m e a l )O( To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 19:19:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DAB5214A2F for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:19:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:19:39 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "a disembodied voice emerging from the chaos of reality" , Subject: RE: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:19:39 -0700 Message-ID: <000801be9766$e4fa4d60$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So, my point is, by using linux marketing tactics, you not only might not > get the `market share' you want, you might also in the process scare more > thoughtful people away. Besides, if the only people we can convert with > `evangelism' are clueless IT managers and teenage script kiddies, maybe > we're better off without them? :) Exactly. Linux is starting to get a reputation for being hard to use simply because it's been pitched to people who have no business using it. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 19:49:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ECC014D3E for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:49:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-191.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.191]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id VAA14924; Wed, 5 May 1999 21:49:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (nospam.hiwaay.net [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA32916; Wed, 5 May 1999 21:49:04 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199905060249.VAA32916@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-reply-to: Message from "Jordan K. Hubbard" of "Wed, 05 May 1999 18:55:00 PDT." <38849.925955700@zippy.cdrom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 21:49:04 -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Jordan K. Hubbard" writes: > > So, your saying that FreeBSD can read in the binary and begin > > executing machine instructions without any processing in between, or > > Correct. It's still an x86 binary and everything in it that's not > trapping to the kernel for services is going to be executed exactly as > it is under Linux; its shared libraries will be loaded (out of some > part of /compat/linux/...), its accesses to many common system devices > (like the vga console) dealt with appropriately by compatibility > support in the driver, etc. As far as the binary's concerned, it's > running on a Linux box. When it makes a system call, that goes > through whatever syscall table has been mapped in with the process by > the image activator (the bit which handles getting /bin/ls into memory > so it can actually run) and if it's a Linux binary image activator, it > simply maps in a different syscall table than the FreeBSD ELF binary > image activator does. No extra overhead, just a switch pointing in > a different direction (so to speak). So rather than "Linux Emulation" would it not be better understood if we said, "FreeBSD supports the Linux ABI (Application Binary Interface)"? By writting to a common ABI (Win32) isn't that how Windows applications are supposed to run under Win95, Win98, and WinNT? And eventually isn't WINE supposed to do this too? In any case, the FreeBSD Linux emulation/ABI/whatever works pretty darn good. I've had better luck running i386 Linux binaries than i386 NetBSD. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 19:51:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95BA014EEF for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:51:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA39151; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:51:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 05 May 1999 21:49:04 CDT." <199905060249.VAA32916@nospam.hiwaay.net> Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 19:51:43 -0700 Message-ID: <39147.925959103@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > So rather than "Linux Emulation" would it not be better understood if > we said, "FreeBSD supports the Linux ABI (Application Binary > Interface)"? Probably not better "understood", but certainly more tecnically correct. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 20:42: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vidal.valueclick.com (vidal.valueclick.com [205.227.183.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id DD75414C33 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 20:41:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ask@vidal.valueclick.com) Received: (qmail 32663 invoked by uid 500); 6 May 1999 03:41:59 -0000 Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 20:41:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Ask Bjoern Hansen To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Mindcraft/Apache/Linux (was: Overscheduling DOES happen with high web server load. (fwd)) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey, As usual not to bash Linux, but it's kinda interesting. - ask -- ask bjoern hansen - ValueClick - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 16:48:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Dean Gaudet Reply-To: new-httpd@apache.org To: new-httpd@apache.org Subject: Overscheduling DOES happen with high web server load. (fwd) Probable cause of mindcraft's results. Note that even if we were multithreaded under linux it'd still run into this problem. Dean ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 14:54:40 -0400 (EDT) From: Phillip Ezolt To: linux-kernel@vger.rutgers.edu Cc: jg@pa.dec.com, greg.tarsa@digital.com Subject: Overscheduling DOES happen with high web server load. Hi all, In doing some performance work with SPECWeb96 on ALpha/Linux with apache, it looks like "schedule" is the main bottleneck. (Kernel v2.2.5, Apache 1.3.4, egcs-1.1.1, iprobe-4.1) When running a SPECWeb96 strobe run on Alpha/linux, I found that when the CPU is pegged, 18% of the time is spent in the scheduler. Using Iprobe, I got the following function breakdown: (only functions >1% are shown) Begin End Sample Image Total Address Address Name Count Pct Pct ------- ------- ---- ----- --- --- 0000000000000000-00000000000029FC /usr/bin/httpd 127463 18.5 00000001200419A0-000000012004339F ap_vformatter 15061 11.8 2.2 FFFFFC0000300000-00000000FFFFFFFF vmlinux 482385 70.1 FFFFFC00003103E0-FFFFFC000031045F entInt 7848 1.6 1.1 FFFFFC0000315E40-FFFFFC0000315F7F do_entInt 48487 10.1 7.0 FFFFFC0000327A40-FFFFFC0000327D7F schedule 124815 25.9 18.1 FFFFFC000033FAA0-FFFFFC000033FCDF kfree 7876 1.6 1.1 FFFFFC00003A9960-FFFFFC00003A9EBF ip_queue_xmit 8616 1.8 1.3 FFFFFC00003B9440-FFFFFC00003B983F tcp_v4_rcv 11131 2.3 1.6 FFFFFC0000441CA0-FFFFFC000044207F do_csum_partial 43112 8.9 6.3 _copy_from_user I can't pin it down to the exact source line, but the cycles are spent in close proximity of one another. FFFFFC0000327A40 schedule vmlinux FFFFFC0000327C1C 01DC 2160 ( 1.7) * FFFFFC0000327C34 01F4 28515 ( 22.8) ********************** FFFFFC0000327C60 0220 1547 ( 1.2) * FFFFFC0000327C64 0224 26432 ( 21.2) ********************* FFFFFC0000327C74 0234 36470 ( 29.2) ***************************** FFFFFC0000327C9C 025C 24858 ( 19.9) ******************* (For those interested, I have the disassembled code. ) Apache has a fairly even cycle distribution, but in the kernel, 'schedule' really sticks out as the CPU burner. I think that the linear search for next runnable process is where time is being spent. As an independent test, I ran vmstat while SPECWeb was running. The leftmost column is the number of processes waiting to run. These number are above the 3 or 4 that are normally quoted. procs memory swap io system cpu r b w swpd free buff cache si so bi bo in cs us sy id 0 21 0 208 5968 5240 165712 0 0 4001 303 10263 6519 31 66 4 26 27 1 208 6056 5240 165848 0 0 2984 96 5623 3440 29 60 11 0 15 0 208 5096 5288 166384 0 0 4543 260 10850 7346 32 66 3 0 17 0 208 6928 5248 164936 0 0 5741 309 13129 8052 32 65 3 37 19 1 208 5664 5248 166144 0 0 2502 142 6837 3896 33 63 5 0 14 0 208 5984 5240 165656 0 0 3894 376 12432 7276 32 65 3 0 19 1 208 4872 5272 166248 0 0 2247 124 7641 4514 32 64 4 0 17 0 208 5248 5264 166336 0 0 4229 288 8786 5144 31 67 2 56 16 1 208 6512 5248 165592 0 0 2159 205 8098 4641 32 62 6 94 18 1 208 5920 5248 165896 0 0 1745 191 5288 2952 32 60 7 71 14 1 208 5920 5256 165872 0 0 2063 160 6493 3729 30 62 8 0 25 1 208 5032 5256 166544 0 0 3008 112 5668 3612 31 60 9 62 22 1 208 5496 5256 165560 0 0 2512 109 5661 3392 28 62 11 43 22 1 208 4536 5272 166112 0 0 3003 202 7198 4813 30 63 7 0 26 1 208 4800 5288 166256 0 0 2407 93 5666 3563 29 60 11 32 17 1 208 5984 5296 165632 0 0 2046 329 7296 4305 31 62 6 23 7 1 208 6744 5248 164904 0 0 1739 284 9496 5923 33 65 2 14 18 1 208 5128 5272 166416 0 0 3755 322 9663 6203 32 65 3 0 22 1 208 4256 5304 167288 0 0 2593 156 5678 3219 31 60 9 44 20 1 208 3688 5264 167184 0 0 3010 149 7277 4398 31 62 7 29 24 1 208 5232 5264 166248 0 0 1954 104 5687 3496 31 61 9 26 23 1 208 5688 5256 165568 0 0 3029 169 7124 4473 30 60 10 0 18 1 208 5576 5256 165656 0 0 3395 270 8464 5702 30 63 7 It looks like the run queue is much longer than expected. I imagine this problem is compounded by the number of times "schedule" is called. On a webserver that does not have all of the web pages in memory, an httpd processes life is the following: 1. Wake up for a request from the network. 2. Figure out what web page to load. 3. Ask the disk for it. 4. Sleep (Schedule()) until the page is ready. This means that schedule will be called alot. In addition a process will wake and sleep in a time much shorter than its allotted time slice. Each time we schedule, we have to walk through the entire run queue. This will cause less requests to be serviced. This will cause more processes to be stuck on the run queue, this will make the walk down the runqueue even longer... Bottom line, under a heavy web load, the linux kernel seems to spend and unnecessary amount of time scheduling processes. Is it necessary to calculate the goodness of every process at every schedule? Can't we make the goodnesses static? Monkeying with the scheduler is big business, and I realize that this will not be a v2.2 issue, but what about v2.3? --Phil Digital/Compaq: HPSD/Benchmark Performance Engineering Phillip.Ezolt@compaq.com ezolt@perf.zko.dec.com ps. For those interested in more detail there will be a WIP paper describing this work presented at Linux Expo. - To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-kernel" in the body of a message to majordomo@vger.rutgers.edu Please read the FAQ at http://www.tux.org/lkml/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 22:15:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (mail2.atl.bellsouth.net [205.152.0.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1C8E158FD for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 22:15:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wghicks@bellsouth.net) Received: from wghicks.bellsouth.net (host-209-214-71-67.atl.bellsouth.net [209.214.71.67]) by mail2.atl.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA14298; Thu, 6 May 1999 01:15:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (wghicks@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wghicks.bellsouth.net (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id BAA48644; Thu, 6 May 1999 01:16:46 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net) To: winter@jurai.net Cc: danderso@crystalsugar.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 5 May 1999 15:49:41 -0400 (EDT)" References: X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on XEmacs 20.4 (Emerald) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990506011645R.wghicks@wghicks.bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 01:16:45 -0400 From: W Gerald Hicks X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 82 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From: "Matthew N. Dodd" Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 15:49:41 -0400 (EDT) > On Wed, 5 May 1999, Dale Anderson wrote: > > [...] often our job performance is rated on up-time. Usually by pointy-haired little men with a mean streak :^P > > Won't be using Linux in that case. :) > > > For these reasons, we like native applications over "Emulated > > enviroments." > > You guys must hate AS/400s. That's a pretty good one. Even the S/38, from which the AS/400 was derived, was an emulated environment (virtual machine). DP/MIS/IT folks loved both but I just couldn't stand RPG. *blech* IBM's "secret" systems programming tools weren't that bad though. > > Anyone who brandishes an IT title is more than likely clueless. Why must > people continue to reinvforce this again and again? > Most of the IT people I've seen brandishing their titles around Unix places seem to be the retrained types, mostly from CICS backgrounds and are often busy porting legacy CICS/COBOL code to Java/CORBA. Every so often, this subculture decides to change what it calls itself. Over my career of nearly twenty years it's been: 1. Data Processing This period was notable for the sheer mass of stupid software which was written to appease pointy-haired little men with stupid ideas. Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. 2. Management Information Systems During this period AI/CASE was strongly advocated as a silver bullet to avoid hiring a horde of programmers to develop even more stupid programs which were being demanded by pointy-haired little men. This generation was formed by the replacements for those who got fired for buying IBM. Nobody ever got fired for buying a Vax. 3. Information Technology This is our current evolutionary regression. The current end-all solution is to write stupid programs demanded by pointy-haired little men with stupid ideas exclusively in Java, using CORBA as the mechanism used to communicate stupidity rapidly throughout the enterprise network. This generation is mostly controlled by the replacements for the folks who got fired for buying Vaxes. After all, nobody ever gets fired for buying Microsoft. :-) Cheers, Jerry Hicks wghicks@bellsouth.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 22:31:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15F5315133 for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 22:31:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA00133; Wed, 5 May 1999 23:31:01 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990505165841.04496830@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Wed, 05 May 1999 17:01:54 -0600 To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: <199905051810.NAA25028@hostigos.otherwhen.com> References: <4.2.0.37.19990505102722.00c748f0@localhost> <19990505081901.B24172@ontario.mooseriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:51 PM 5/5/99 -0500, Mike Avery wrote: >As I get older, I realize that marketing creates demand. Whether we >like it or not. And that someone will create demand for a class of >product. If you don't create demand for your product, your >competitor will create demand for theirs. Marketing is as essential >as having a product. And it ain't easy. In fact, in it's own way it's >as hard as creating a product. Actually, marketing *is* creating a product. Without marketing, it's just a program, not a product. >I don't think that if someone were to criticize FreeBSD technically >people would seriously tell them to "write your own OS". It's not >easy. And we know FreeBSD wasn't the product of one person in >their basement. Similarly, advocacy isn't a one person job. Very true. >As a FreeBSD newbie, I probably should look more before speaking, >but advocacy and development require different skills. That isn't to >say one person can't have both, but most often they don't. It seems >that there should be a separate group handling publicity, evangalism, >advocacy, and so on. And the group should be more open than the >existing structure seems to be. Absolutely. And since marketing needs HOURS (communicating with humans is MUCH more time-consuming than coding), there also needs to be a financial incentive, at least for the primary marketers. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed May 5 23:52: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail5.svr.pol.co.uk (mail5.svr.pol.co.uk [195.92.193.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 688C514DCD for ; Wed, 5 May 1999 23:52:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from rsm@acm.org) Received: from modem-38.neodymium.dialup.pol.co.uk ([62.136.29.166] helo=valis.goatsucker.org) by mail5.svr.pol.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 10fI0l-0007Q4-00 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Thu, 6 May 1999 07:51:59 +0100 Received: (from scott@localhost) by valis.goatsucker.org (8.8.8/8.8.7) id TAA00670; Wed, 5 May 1999 19:44:49 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from scott) Message-ID: <19990505194448.11886@goatsucker.org> Date: Wed, 5 May 1999 19:44:48 +0100 From: Scott Mitchell To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments References: <4.2.0.37.19990504223819.00c28c30@localhost> <199905041651.MAA23567@jabberwock.rstcorp.com> <4.2.0.37.19990504223819.00c28c30@localhost> <19990505081901.B24172@ontario.mooseriver.com> <4.2.0.37.19990505102722.00c748f0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.89i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990505102722.00c748f0@localhost>; from Brett Glass on Wed, May 05, 1999 at 10:54:52AM -0600 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 2.2.6-RELEASE i386 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, May 05, 1999 at 10:54:52AM -0600, Brett Glass wrote: > Again, how would you suggest that I invest this massive amount of time and > effort (and it would be massive; there's a LOT of work to do and many things > to UNdo) and not go broke? While I *would* like to see FreeBSD succeed, I > certainly couldn't martyr myself financially for it. Brett, I don't think anyone's expecting you to do *everything* (most of us have lives too, you know :-) I seem to remember -- I'm not online to check this right now, so please excuse any dumb mistakes here -- that there was a list of advocacy tasks on the 'official' site (advocacy.freebsd.org?) I guess you could do worse than pick something off there and, erm, start advocating... Your personal crusade seems to be getting commercial vendors to support FreeBSD instead of/in addition to that Penguin OS; maybe you could select someone who's already shown some interest in supporting 'alternative' OSes (Corel? Netscape?) and go to work on them? If you could get Corel to commit to a native FreeBSD port of WordPerfect, I for one would be willing to give them money in advance to make sure it happened. Feel free to tell them that, if you can get anyone there to listen to you. Granted, even that will take up a bunch of time, but hopefully not too much cash (neither of which I have much of right now, so I can sympathise with your position). Comments? Scott -- =========================================================================== Scott Mitchell | PGP Key ID |"If I can't have my coffee, I'm just | 0x54B171B9 | like a dried up piece of roast goat" QMW College, London, UK | 0xAA775B8B | -- J. S. Bach. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 0:30:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mgw02.wxs.nl (mgw02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42DE015963 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 00:30:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from skywise@wxs.nl) Received: from po02.wxs.nl (po02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.41]) by mgw02.wxs.nl (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA05504 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:16:38 +0200 Received: from webmail ([195.121.6.34]) by po02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with SMTP id AAA3E49; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:30:18 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments X-Posting-Host: 193.67.139.1 [193.67.139.1] X-Posting-UID: skywise X-Mailer: Netscape Messenger Express 3.5 [Mozilla/4.51 [en] (Win95; I)] Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:30:18 +0200 Message-ID: <7727176FBCA.AAA3E49@po02.wxs.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >At 08:11 PM 5/5/99 +0200, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: > > >Sorry if I am going to step on people's toes with this post and use a few >>french words every now and then, but I am getting fucking tired of this >>whole useless debate by now. > >It's only useless if nothing comes of it. The issues are important, and >I think it's poor form to jump all over Mike like that. He is making some >good points and is honestly trying to help. > >Don't shoot the messenger. I didn't, unfortunately I choose to place my post after Mike, but I explicitly left him out of the to: or cc: since this wasn't directed at him. I offended Mike by this, I apologise for that. regards, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 0:55:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mgw02.wxs.nl (mgw02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A44D6158BF for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 00:55:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from skywise@wxs.nl) Received: from po02.wxs.nl (po02.wxs.nl [195.121.6.41]) by mgw02.wxs.nl (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id KAA06644 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:42:00 +0200 Received: from webmail ([195.121.6.34]) by po02.wxs.nl (Netscape Messaging Server 3.61) with SMTP id AAA3312; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:55:41 +0200 From: Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To: Brett Glass Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments X-Posting-Host: 193.67.139.1 [193.67.139.1] X-Posting-UID: skywise X-Mailer: Netscape Messenger Express 3.5 [Mozilla/4.51 [en] (Win95; I)] Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:55:41 +0200 Message-ID: <7727176F15A5.AAA3312@po02.wxs.nl> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >At 12:51 PM 5/5/99 -0500, Mike Avery wrote: >>As a FreeBSD newbie, I probably should look more before speaking, >>but advocacy and development require different skills. That isn't to >>say one person can't have both, but most often they don't. It seems >>that there should be a separate group handling publicity, evangalism, >>advocacy, and so on. And the group should be more open than the >>existing structure seems to be. > >Absolutely. And since marketing needs HOURS (communicating with humans >is MUCH more time-consuming than coding), there also needs to be a >financial incentive, at least for the primary marketers. I do not doubt that marketing costs time, but to put off coders like that is being as worse as people putting down PR activity... Coding take less time? Heh, I wonder if Matthew Dillon, Peter Wemm, Doug Rabson, David O'Brien and the likes all think that's correct... Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 6:44: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D5EF156D7 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 06:43:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA26100 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 23:44:01 +1000 (EST) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 23:44:01 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: copying 3.1 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I know FreeBSD is a free operating system etc... and i can sell it as I please etc... am I allowed to copy the cd's I have purchased and sell them? The reason I ask is that I was going to go halves with someone else in a copy and the idea was that one of us would get the originals and one of us would get a copy. am i breaking any rules/stepping on any toes here? Andre Perry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 7:22:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (dialin2017.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E23814E12 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 07:22:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01645 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 09:30:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199905061430.JAA01645@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.44); 6 May 99 09:22:01 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.44); 6 May 99 09:21:59 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 09:21:54 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com In-reply-to: <7727176F15A5.AAA3312@po02.wxs.nl> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.10fb) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 6 May 99, at 9:55, Jeroen Ruigrok/Asmodai wrote: >> Absolutely. And since marketing needs HOURS (communicating with >> humans is MUCH more time-consuming than coding), there also needs to >> be a financial incentive, at least for the primary marketers. > I do not doubt that marketing costs time, but to put off coders > like that is being as worse as people putting down PR > activity... > Coding take less time? Heh, I wonder if Matthew Dillon, Peter > Wemm, Doug Rabson, David O'Brien and the likes all think that's > correct... It's probably an open-ended question. Marketing, like most activities, can happen at the wholesale and retail level. At the wholesale level you are trying to interest lots of people in a product - a big media blitz, gaining "mindshare" (a disgusting buzz word... I hope it's on it's way out). At the retail level, you are trying to convince a small number of people that they can't live without your product. While working for a state agency, I saw the retail level as a vendor spend three years working with (or on) us before getting his first sale. We hated the jerk. He was always there, always had a suggestion, always bidding on things, always trying to get his foot in the damn door. He won our "sleaziest vendor" award twice and won second place several times. We'd go out of our way to miss meetings with him - so he'd corner us in the hall. Coding is you and the machine. It responds quickly, it doesn't lie to you, and it responds as quickly as it can. If you need faster response, you can upgrade to a faster machine. People will lie to you. They aren't under your control, so they can just not talk to you... or schedule other meetings. At their best, people are slow, and it's hard to change their minds. A lot of the time consuming activities are damn near pointless and often frustrating. In the end, he got a small server contract, which went well and led to a good sized server contract (around 200, if memory serves). His were better than the ones we had been buying. That led to a good sized PC order - around 5,000, I think. Persistence does pay.... But.... he spent a lot of time with us over a 3 year period to get those sales. He had other profitable accounts, so he could afford the marketing time. So.... marketing can take LOTS of time. And often you have nothing to show for your efforts - sometimes for years - other than people who will let you buy 'em a drink and otherwise shun you. The guy has since moved on to become a regional Microsoft marketing manager. Which confirmed our feelings about him. And reminds us that marketeers go where they think the money is. Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: The best laid plans of mice and men are usually about equal. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 7:45: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F014A14D53 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 07:45:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) id KAA11946; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:45:10 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199905061445.KAA11946@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: copying 3.1 In-Reply-To: from Andrew Perry at "May 6, 99 11:44:01 pm" To: andrew@python.shoal.net.au (Andrew Perry) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:45:10 -0400 (EDT) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL40 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andrew Perry wrote, > I know FreeBSD is a free operating system etc... and i can sell it as I > please etc... am I allowed to copy the cd's I have purchased and sell > them? The reason I ask is that I was going to go halves with someone else > in a copy and the idea was that one of us would get the originals and one > of us would get a copy. > > am i breaking any rules/stepping on any toes here? First, the usual disclaimers, I am not a lawyer or otherwise especially fit to make judgments on copyright law. FreeBSD, the source code and programs resulting are freely reditributable, and you can charge for such redistributions. However, the Walnut Creek CDROM distribution is copyrighted by Walnut Creek and subject to their control. In addition, some of the packages included on the CDROM are only there because copyright owners have specific agreements with Walnut Creek for the package's distribution. Just anyone else cannot redistribute it for a charge. To summarize, blindly copying the whole Walnut Creek distribution is a copyright violation. Reassembling the parts of the CDROM distribution that you know are freely redistributible and making your own distribution on CD for resale is allowable. Those are rules. As for toes, you won't make a lot of friends in the FreeBSD community if you try to make a buck off of FreeBSD without giving _something_ in return. OK, one more thing. If we're only talking about you and one friend going halvies on a CDROM set, there are no licensing issues preventing you from installing FreeBSD on as many machines as you want. FreeBSD CDROMs have a fairly short shelf life, i.e. a newer version of FreeBSD is always a few months away and your CDs will be obsolete. What I'm getting at is that I don't even know if it is worth the _bother_ of making a second copy for your friend if you can exchange the originals. My four 2.2.7 CDs from just a few months ago are pretty much only useful as drink coasters at this point. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 8:34:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB71E1512C; Thu, 6 May 1999 08:34:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA02627; Thu, 6 May 1999 11:34:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 11:34:48 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Well all, a few months ago, jkh handed the dinner plans off to me for USENIX, so I've been doing a little research : I want people to look at these URL's and let me know which of them sound the most interesting (I lean towards the Mission Ranch in Carmel, but I'm not sure how far it is from the Conference Center). Mission Ranch http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/5/rm549.html Tarpy's Roadhouse (a little expensive) http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/8/rm859.html Domenico's (this sounds very promising, inexpensive) http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/2/rm229.html Jardines De San Juan (possibly too far away, but inexpensive, and listed as one of the "If you in Monterey only one time" places) and last but not least, inexpensive too, Rappa's http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/7/rm700.html please let me know what you guys think, I want this to be a good time for all... -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 8:40:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from icicle.winternet.com (icicle.winternet.com [198.174.169.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 793C31512C for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 08:40:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com) Received: from tundra.winternet.com (nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11]) by icicle.winternet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA20489; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:40:27 -0500 (CDT) SMTP "HELO" (ESMTP) greeting from tundra.winternet.com But _really_ from :: nrahlstr@tundra.winternet.com [198.174.169.11] SMTP "MAIL From" = nrahlstr@mail.winternet.com (Nathan Ahlstrom) SMTP "RCPT To" = Received: (from nrahlstr@localhost) by tundra.winternet.com (8.8.7/8.8.4) id KAA27261; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:40:26 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <19990506104025.A26048@winternet.com> Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 10:40:25 -0500 From: Nathan Ahlstrom To: Pat Lynch , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.93.2i In-Reply-To: ; from Pat Lynch on Thu, May 06, 1999 at 11:34:48AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pat Lynch wrote: > > Well all, a few months ago, jkh handed the dinner plans off to me > for USENIX, so I've been doing a little research : I want people to look > at these URL's and let me know which of them sound the most interesting (I > lean towards the Mission Ranch in Carmel, but I'm not sure how far it is > from the Conference Center). Which begs the question, how are people planning to get around Monterey? Are most renting cars? or relying on cabs, busses, etc? > Mission Ranch > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/5/rm549.html > > Tarpy's Roadhouse (a little expensive) > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/8/rm859.html > > Domenico's (this sounds very promising, inexpensive) > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/2/rm229.html > > Jardines De San Juan (possibly too far away, but inexpensive, and listed > as one of the "If you in Monterey only one time" places) > > and last but not least, inexpensive too, > > Rappa's > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/7/rm700.html > > please let me know what you guys think, I want this to be a good time for > all... > > -Pat > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net > Systems Administrator Rush Networking > > "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- > Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY > > "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- > Unknown > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Nathan Ahlstrom FreeBSD: http://www.FreeBSD.org/ nrahlstr@winternet.com PGP Key ID: 0x67BC9D19 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 10: 5:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from funbox.demon.co.uk (funbox.demon.co.uk [158.152.85.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CFC2815144 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 10:05:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk) Received: by funbox.demon.co.uk (mail 1.52.1.2) id tim.3731B839.00.714E; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:41:45 +0000 Message-ID: To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: dev.null@funbox.demon.co.uk Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:41:45 +0100 Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass was noted to observe: > People adopt > OSes to run applications, not the other way around. Not me, mate! You speak for yourself... Me, I look for applications to run under FBSD (and there are plenty to keep me happy). -- Tim Jackson (PGP key available) ________________________________________________________________________ please reply to: t i m . j @ f u n b o x . d e m o n . c o . u k To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 11:13:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lfes.languageforce.com (mail.languageforce.com [206.111.39.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 626EE15E3D for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 11:13:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Response@languageforce.com) Received: from dennis (206.111.39.132 [206.111.39.132]) by lfes.languageforce.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id JM7JHDH9; Thu, 6 May 1999 11:17:47 -0700 From: Response@languageforce.com To: Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 11:15:56 -0800 Subject: Breakthrough in Portuguese Translation Software Reply-To: Response@languageforce.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 Message-Id: <19990506181335.626EE15E3D@hub.freebsd.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Portuguese UTStarGate What the World Has been Waiting For ! 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CALL NOW ! 888-837-8887 TOLL FREE ! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message Sent Using Aureate Group Mail Free Edition http://www.group-mail.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 11:43:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.webnology.com (mercury.webnology.com [209.155.51.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14E4814CFD for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 11:43:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jooji@webnology.com) Received: from localhost (jooji@localhost) by mercury.webnology.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) with SMTP id MAA00793; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:43:57 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 12:43:57 -0500 (CDT) From: "Jasper O'Malley" To: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Cc: David Kelly , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: PCWeek article by Anne Chen -- Comments In-Reply-To: <39147.925959103@zippy.cdrom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 5 May 1999, Jordan K. Hubbard wrote: > > So rather than "Linux Emulation" would it not be better understood if > > we said, "FreeBSD supports the Linux ABI (Application Binary > > Interface)"? > > Probably not better "understood", but certainly more tecnically correct. :) Any reason we can't just point out that FreeBSD runs a wide variety of unmodified Linux apps without using the "e" word at all? ;) Cheers, Mick The Reverend Jasper P. O'Malley dotdot:jooji@webnology.com Systems Administrator ringring:asktheadmiral Webnology, LLC woowoo:http://www.webnology.com/~jooji To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 11:50: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7555C14C08 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 11:50:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Thu, 6 May 1999 11:49:59 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Andrew Perry" , Subject: RE: copying 3.1 Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 11:49:59 -0700 Message-ID: <001901be97f1$3ded58b0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 In-reply-to: Importance: Normal Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It all depends what else is on the CD and whether the CD preparer claims a 'compilation copyright'. Check their policy, and if you don't like it, don't buy from them. But geez, I got my last FreeBSD cd for $2. I paid more in shipping, but I could have bought another for an extra $2. How much does a blank CD cost? And how much is your time worth to copy it? DS > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG > [mailto:owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG]On Behalf Of Andrew Perry > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 6:44 AM > To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org > Subject: copying 3.1 > > > I know FreeBSD is a free operating system etc... and i can sell it as I > please etc... am I allowed to copy the cd's I have purchased and sell > them? The reason I ask is that I was going to go halves with someone else > in a copy and the idea was that one of us would get the originals and one > of us would get a copy. > > am i breaking any rules/stepping on any toes here? > > Andre Perry > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 12:13:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8238815046 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:13:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Received: from suzy (modem10.masternet.it [194.184.65.20]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.2) with SMTP id TAA02288 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 19:13:02 GMT (envelope-from gmarco@giovannelli.it) Message-Id: <4.1.19990506210519.00b46990@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@194.184.65.4 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 21:11:04 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: vmount old goldie Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I usually used vmount (and obvisuly vumount) to mount my msdos zip drives , because it was without no doubt the fast (versus a simple mount or mtools toy) on every branches... But now I have lost it and I don't know where to find it again... Any tips ? Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 12:15:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0F531510F for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 12:14:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (licia@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA12741 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 14:15:00 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 14:15:00 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: IBCS2 type question :) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Can anyone give me an idea of where to dig up information on IBCS2, and any related information? (Is there an IBCS3, any discussions of doing IBCS2 with Elf as well as COFF, etc?) [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 13:50:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C39861522B for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 13:50:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@rush.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04778 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 16:50:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:50:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: bad news... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org some places so not take reservations over 10 (Mission Ranch) others cannot accomodate a group of 50... *sigh* maybe calling a tourist agency there might be able to get me a list of good places to eat inexpensive and have the type of facilities we might need. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking "Wow, everyone looks different in Real Life (tm)"- Nathan Dorfman meeting people at FUNY "Suicide is painless, switching to NT isn't."- Unknown ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 14:24:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 400F715181 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 14:24:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA22257; Fri, 7 May 1999 07:24:14 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 07:24:14 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: David Schwartz Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: RE: copying 3.1 In-Reply-To: <001901be97f1$3ded58b0$021d85d1@whenever.youwant.to> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > It all depends what else is on the CD and whether the CD preparer claims a > 'compilation copyright'. Check their policy, and if you don't like it, don't > buy from them. > > But geez, I got my last FreeBSD cd for $2. I paid more in shipping, but I > could have bought another for an extra $2. How much does a blank CD cost? > And how much is your time worth to copy it? my cd's cost about $50 Australian (for the set) by the time they land at my postoffice. Blank cd's are a lot cheaper. I was only looking at a way to share the cost with another person but I think that someone else has answered my question for me and Walnut Creek may have actually copyrighted their cd's, which would prevent straight cdrom copying. thanks Andrew Perry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 14:28:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from python.shoal.net.au (python.shoal.net.au [203.26.44.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1975D15181 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 14:28:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from andrew@python.shoal.net.au) Received: from localhost (andrew@localhost) by python.shoal.net.au (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA22382; Fri, 7 May 1999 07:28:23 +1000 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 07:28:23 +1000 (EST) From: Andrew Perry To: David Schwartz Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: copying 3.1 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > > > It all depends what else is on the CD and whether the CD preparer claims a > > 'compilation copyright'. Check their policy, and if you don't like it, don't > > buy from them. > > > > But geez, I got my last FreeBSD cd for $2. I paid more in shipping, but I > > could have bought another for an extra $2. How much does a blank CD cost? > > And how much is your time worth to copy it? > > my cd's cost about $50 Australian (for the set) by the time they land at > my postoffice. > Blank cd's are a lot cheaper. I was only looking at a way to share the > cost with another person but I think that someone else has answered my > question for me and Walnut Creek may have actually copyrighted their cd's, > which would prevent straight cdrom copying. > > thanks > > Andrew Perry > Actually I think I should qualify this and say that I don't have any problems with Walnut Creek nor do I have any problems if they choose to copyright their product. Walnut Creek support us so I don't mind supporting them. I'd buy direct from them instead of a reseller but it takes months for the cd's to arrive over here. Andrew Perry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 14:50:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hostigos.otherwhen.com (mavery-gw.pernet.net [205.229.2.17]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A4DD15BB9 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 14:50:17 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mavery@mail.otherwhen.com) Received: from mail.otherwhen.com (mail.2.229.205.in-addr.arpa [205.229.2.19] (may be forged)) by hostigos.otherwhen.com (8.8.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA02552; Thu, 6 May 1999 16:59:08 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199905062159.QAA02552@hostigos.otherwhen.com> Received: from PORKY/SpoolDir by mail.otherwhen.com (Mercury 1.44); 6 May 99 16:50:13 -0600 Received: from SpoolDir by PORKY (Mercury 1.44); 6 May 99 16:50:06 -0600 From: "Mike Avery" To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:50:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: bad news... Reply-To: mavery@mail.otherwhen.com Cc: Pat Lynch In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.10) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 6 May 99, at 16:50, Pat Lynch wrote: > some places so not take reservations over 10 (Mission Ranch) others cannot > accomodate a group of 50... *sigh* maybe calling a tourist agency there > might be able to get me a list of good places to eat inexpensive and have > the type of facilities we might need. It's been too many years (about 4) since I was there, so I don't remember names, but a quick look at http://www.montery.com http://monterey.areaguides.net and http://www.monterey- travel.org/destination_planning/regions/monterey/dining/index.html refreshed my memory. Since it has been a few years, my recommendations come with a caveat - things change. Overall, walking a few blocks off Cannery Row causes prices to drop, but there are rea$onable places on Cannery Row also... just look at the prices before you order. There are LOTS of resturants up and down Cannery Row. Many of them can handle crowds, so there is a last minute option.... walk into a resturant a day or two before the planned meal, expain the situation, and throw yourself on their mercy. Once you've found a place, announce it. As to places I was reminded of.... some of which might be suitable for a group gathering.... Amarin Thai Cuisine 807 Cannery Row Monterey, CA 93940 tel. +1 831.373.8811 Excellent Thai food. Very reasonable prices. However, they might not be able to accomodate a crowd. Bubba Gump Shrimp Co. 720 Cannery Row Monterey, CA 93940 tel. +1 831.373.1884 Kinda noisy, moderate price, on the water, OK food, OK service, but big enough to handle a crowd. However, they are popular enough they might not want to. (Can you say "exploiting a movie?" I knew you could.) Still, they could put 50 in a corner and no one would notice the group. India's Clay Oven 150 Del Monte Ave Monterey, CA 93940 tel. +1 831.373.2529 Good prices, excellent food, atmosphere, and service. Not sure they can handle a crowd, but worth a call. Paradiso Trattoria 654 Cannery Row Monterey, CA 93940 tel. +1 831.375.4155 If you like Italian, go there. Screw the group thing, just go there. Not as cheap as some, but very nice. Excellent atmosphere, food, service. Highly recommended (as of 4 years ago). While you're there, check out the Monterey Bay Aquarium.... it's amazing! Also, walk inland (and uphill) a few blocks from the aquarium. There's a large area there with resturants, some of them large enough to hold an army, and some of them cheap and good. In truth, in a week in Monterey I don't think I had a bad meal. Good luck, Mike ====================================================================== Mike Avery MAvery@mail.otherwhen.com (409)-842-2942 (work) ICQ: 16241692 * Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other way * A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day: Tomato paste: what you use to fix broken tomatoes. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 14:52:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (zippy.cdrom.com [204.216.27.228]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8203515CA6 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 14:52:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) Received: from zippy.cdrom.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zippy.cdrom.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA40604; Thu, 6 May 1999 14:52:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jkh@zippy.cdrom.com) To: Andrew Perry Cc: David Schwartz , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: copying 3.1 In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 07 May 1999 07:24:14 +1000." Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 14:52:41 -0700 Message-ID: <40600.926027561@zippy.cdrom.com> From: "Jordan K. Hubbard" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Blank cd's are a lot cheaper. I was only looking at a way to share the > cost with another person but I think that someone else has answered my > question for me and Walnut Creek may have actually copyrighted their cd's, > which would prevent straight cdrom copying. Well, let me just jump in here and also say that Walnut Creek CDROM doesn't have a problem with people making the occasional copies for friends. Technically it's a violation, but in reality nobody's going to come after you for something like this. Do a little local evangelism and we've even been known to send you a pack of freebies. :) - Jordan To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 15:40:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9590A14CCB for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:40:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.1/frmug-2.3/nospam) with UUCP id AAA17835 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 7 May 1999 00:40:16 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 99A0C8849; Fri, 7 May 1999 00:33:21 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 00:33:21 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner Message-ID: <19990507003321.A50435@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <19990506104025.A26048@winternet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/0.95.5i In-Reply-To: <19990506104025.A26048@winternet.com>; from Nathan Ahlstrom on Thu, May 06, 1999 at 10:40:25AM -0500 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5244 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to Nathan Ahlstrom: > Which begs the question, how are people planning to get around Monterey? > Are most renting cars? or relying on cabs, busses, etc? We three frenchies will be renting a car in SF. Phil and I will be in Monterey on the 5th and Vincent will come next day. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #2: Fri Apr 16 22:37:03 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 15:51:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.click2net.com (mail.click2net.com [216.94.59.238]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7CC014CCB; Thu, 6 May 1999 15:51:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from geoff@click2net.com) Received: from click2net.com (sparrow.click2net.com [216.94.59.226]) by mail.click2net.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA12947; Thu, 6 May 1999 18:52:56 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from geoff@click2net.com) Message-ID: <37321D30.1BD6202B@click2net.com> Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 18:52:32 -0400 From: Geoffrey Robinson Organization: Click2net inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.0-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: freebsd-user-groups@freebsd.org, srh@icon.ca Subject: Greater Toronto Area FreeBSD User's Group Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I'm sending this email to announce my intention to form a FreeBSD users group in the Greater Toronto Area. The Greater Toronto Area, for the unfamiliar, is composed of over a dozen cities in 4 regional municipalities (Halton, Peel, York and Durham) surrounding Metro Toronto located in the province of Ontario, Canada. To get the organization started future co-founder Dan Moschuk and I are prepared to supply a server on a dedicated connection, mailing lists and a domain name. If anybody living or working in the GTA is at all interested in becoming a member please contact me ASAP. Membership will be free and open to everybody. Before we officially create the organization we want to see some indication that there is an interest and that our efforts will not be wasted. -- Geoffrey Robinson To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 16:22:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tch.org (tacostand.tch.org [199.74.220.9]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E387D14CB3 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 16:22:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ser@tch.org) Received: (from ser@localhost) by tch.org (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA03240; Thu, 6 May 1999 16:21:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ser) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:21:55 -0700 From: Steve Rubin To: Pat Lynch Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner Message-ID: <19990506162155.B3212@tch.org> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: ; from Pat Lynch on Thu, May 06, 1999 at 11:34:48AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Tarpy's Roadhouse (a little expensive) > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/8/rm859.html I had my wedding there, I strongly recommend it :) -- Steve Rubin ser@tch.org TCH Network Services http://www.tch.org/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 16:22:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from vader.cs.berkeley.edu (vader.CS.Berkeley.EDU [128.32.38.234]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64ACF14CB3 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 16:22:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from asami@cs.berkeley.edu) Received: (from asami@localhost) by vader.cs.berkeley.edu (8.9.3/8.7.3) id QAA23625; Thu, 6 May 1999 16:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 16:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199905062321.QAA23625@vader.cs.berkeley.edu> X-Authentication-Warning: vader.cs.berkeley.edu: asami set sender to asami@cs.berkeley.edu using -f To: roberto@keltia.freenix.fr Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <19990507003321.A50435@keltia.freenix.fr> (message from Ollivier Robert on Fri, 7 May 1999 00:33:21 +0200) Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner From: asami@FreeBSD.ORG (Satoshi - Ports Wraith - Asami) References: <19990506104025.A26048@winternet.com> <19990507003321.A50435@keltia.freenix.fr> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * From: Ollivier Robert * * According to Nathan Ahlstrom: * > Which begs the question, how are people planning to get around Monterey? * > Are most renting cars? or relying on cabs, busses, etc? * * We three frenchies will be renting a car in SF. Phil and I will be in I'll be driving down my own car. :) -PW P.S. If anyone needs a ride from the Santa Clara/San Jose area to Monterey on the evening of 8th, please let me know. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 17:55:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.rdc1.on.home.com (ha1.rdc1.on.wave.home.com [24.2.9.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C07D1526B for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 17:55:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from paulg@interlog.com) Received: from interlog.com ([24.65.60.52]) by mail.rdc1.on.home.com (InterMail v4.00.03 201-229-104) with ESMTP id <19990507005548.TEFD11507.mail.rdc1.on.home.com@interlog.com> for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 17:55:48 -0700 Message-ID: <373238E2.1AD48746@interlog.com> Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 20:50:42 -0400 From: Paul Griffith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.51 [en] (X11; I; SunOS 5.7 i86pc) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: SunWorld On-Line: Why I run FreeBSD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org See the link below: http://www.sunworld.com/swol-05-1999/swol-05-silicon.html?0503a -- Paul Griffith paulg@interlog.com | Bulls make money. Bears make money. Assume nothing. Expect anything. | Pigs get slaughtered. Sheeps get | sheared and Rabbits get skinned. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 18:14:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 381F515A7D for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 18:14:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id UAA44406 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 20:14:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 20:14:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Crypto export laws ruled unconstitutional! Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I certainly hope this is for real: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,0-36217,00.html?st.ne.lh..ni -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures (SPARC under development). ( http://www.freebsd.org ) "One should admire Windows users. It takes a great deal of courage to trust Windows with your data." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 19: 7:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from allegro.lemis.com (allegro.lemis.com [192.109.197.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D16D14CFD; Thu, 6 May 1999 19:07:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by allegro.lemis.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with ESMTP id LAA27483; Fri, 7 May 1999 11:37:09 +0930 (CST) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA87899; Fri, 7 May 1999 11:37:03 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 11:37:03 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: Pat Lynch Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: USENIX FreeBSD Dinner Message-ID: <19990507113703.A40359@freebie.lemis.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Pat Lynch on Thu, May 06, 1999 at 11:34:48AM -0400 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thursday, 6 May 1999 at 11:34:48 -0400, Pat Lynch wrote: > > Well all, a few months ago, jkh handed the dinner plans off to me > for USENIX, so I've been doing a little research : I want people to look > at these URL's and let me know which of them sound the most interesting (I > lean towards the Mission Ranch in Carmel, but I'm not sure how far it is > from the Conference Center). > > Mission Ranch > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/5/rm549.html > > Tarpy's Roadhouse (a little expensive) > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/8/rm859.html > > Domenico's (this sounds very promising, inexpensive) > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/2/rm229.html > > Jardines De San Juan (possibly too far away, but inexpensive, and listed > as one of the "If you in Monterey only one time" places) > > and last but not least, inexpensive too, > > Rappa's > http://www.digitallantern.com/monterey/r/7/rm700.html > > please let me know what you guys think, I want this to be a good time for > all... Hmm. I trust it'll cost less than $50 per head? One of my favourite restaurants in the world is (or was, last time I went there, about 6 years ago) on Fisherman's Wharf in Monterey. Unfortunately I can't remember the name, but Domenico's fits the description, so I'll vote for that one. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu May 6 19:13:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D633414CFD for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 19:13:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Received: from mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (cdillon@mail.wolves.k12.mo.us [207.160.214.1]) by mail.wolves.k12.mo.us (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA44718 for ; Thu, 6 May 1999 21:13:17 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us) Date: Thu, 6 May 1999 21:13:17 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Dillon To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Crypto export laws ruled unconstitutional! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 May 1999, Chris Dillon wrote: > > I certainly hope this is for real: > > http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,0-36217,00.html?st.ne.lh..ni Forgot to mention Dan Langille mentioned this to me. I don't read much news. :-) -- Chris Dillon - cdillon@wolves.k12.mo.us - cdillon@inter-linc.net FreeBSD: The fastest and most stable server OS on the planet. For Intel x86 and Alpha architectures (SPARC under development). ( http://www.freebsd.org ) "One should admire Windows users. It takes a great deal of courage to trust Windows with your data." To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 7 4:58:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ontario.mooseriver.com (ontario.mooseriver.com [208.138.31.116]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AB4114FDD for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 04:58:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@ontario.mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by ontario.mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id EAA09050; Fri, 7 May 1999 04:58:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 04:58:19 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Cc: announce@bafug.org Subject: May San Francisco BAFUG Meeting Message-ID: <19990507045819.A9026@ontario.mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@MooseRiver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group -- San Francisco BAFUG -- The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, May 13th. This months meeting will be held at The Reef in the Mission district of San Francisco. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda: ==> Our main speaker will be announced later in the week. ==> Josef Grosch will talk about BAFUGs plans for the upcoming Install-A-Thon to be held on May 8th at the Robert Austin Computer show at the Cow Place in Daly City. This Install-A-Thon will be held jointly with BALUG (Bay Area Linux Users Group) and CABAL (Consortium of All Bay Area Linux). We will also have an Install-A-Thon at the Oakland Convention Center on May 15th. See http://www.bafug.org/Install.html for more details including directions on how to get to the Cow Palace. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat passed `round. ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location: This months meeting will be held at The Reef in San Francisco. The Reef is located at 3057 17th St, between Folsom & Harrison Streets. There is plenty parking on the street. Time: The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. The meeting will end at around 10:00pm which will allow for an hour or so to shmooz. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions: By Muni: Routes 12 Folsom, 22 Fillmore, 33 Stanyan, and 53 Southern Heights stop nearby. By BART: Exit at 16th Street Mission, walk south to 17th Street, turning left (east) and proceeding 4 1/2 short blocks to 3057 17th Street, on the right (south) side. By Car: From the South Bay and Peninsula Take 101 North to San Francisco, Get off at Vermont Ave. exit. Turn left twice on to Mariposa westbound under the freeway. Proceed eight blocks to a right (north) turn onto Harrison where Mariposa dead-ends. Go one block to a left (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the East Bay: Come across the Bay bridge (I-80 westbound) and get off at the 8th street exit, bearing half-left onto Harrison, proceeding nine blocks (curving half-left as Harrison turns southbound and goes under US-101) to a right (west) turn onto 17th Street. Proceed about one full block, and park where you can. From the North Bay: Come across the Golden Gate bridge. Follow 101 which turns into Lombard Stree. At Van Ness Ave. turn right. Continue south on Van Ness until 17th st. Take a left on to 17th. Park where you can. WWW info: More info can be found at the following URLs http://www.reef.com http://www.bafug.org Contact: Please contact either Nicole Harrington, or Josef Grosch on or before May 13th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. Nicole Harrington can be reached at nicole@mediacity.com Josef Grosch can be reached at jgrosch@MooseRiver.com -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.1 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 7 5: 2:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au [129.127.36.247]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 774A214FDD for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 05:02:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kkennawa@physics.adelaide.edu.au) Received: from bragg (bragg [129.127.36.34]) by adelphi.physics.adelaide.edu.au (8.8.8/8.8.8/UofA-1.5) with SMTP id VAA09718; Fri, 7 May 1999 21:32:39 +0930 (CST) Received: from localhost by bragg; (5.65/1.1.8.2/05Aug95-0227PM) id AA08723; Fri, 7 May 1999 21:33:08 +0930 Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 21:33:08 +0930 (CST) From: Kris Kennaway X-Sender: kkennawa@bragg To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: vmount old goldie In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990506210519.00b46990@194.184.65.4> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 6 May 1999, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > I usually used vmount (and obvisuly vumount) to mount my msdos zip drives , > because it was without no doubt the fast (versus a simple mount or mtools > toy) on every branches... > > But now I have lost it and I don't know where to find it again... > Any tips ? Search the -hackers archives - it was announced there a couple of years ago. Failing that, I have a copy I can send you. Kris ----- "That suit's sharper than a page of Oscar Wilde witticisms that's been rolled up into a point, sprinkled with lemon juice and jabbed into someone's eye" "Wow, that's sharp!" - Ace Rimmer and the Cat, _Red Dwarf_ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 7 9:23:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBC2014E59 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:23:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA08973; Fri, 7 May 1999 18:23:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: Pat Lynch Cc: Doug White , Fadi Sodah , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: ICMP-attack References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 May 1999 18:23:39 +0200 In-Reply-To: Pat Lynch's message of "Tue, 4 May 1999 18:48:32 -0400 (EDT)" Message-ID: Lines: 13 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Pat Lynch writes: > true, I found out to my chagrin that MTU discovery didn;t work and > was causing problems when I blocked all icmp. Most people miss the point > of icmp, its not just for ping or traceroute. ipfw add pass icmp from any to any icmptype 3,11 ipfw add deny icmp from any to any 3 is Unreachable and 11 is Time Exceeded. That's all you need. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 7 9:28:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5FE614E59 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 09:28:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA09008; Fri, 7 May 1999 18:27:30 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from des) To: John Reynolds~ Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Mindcruft ... References: <14128.25013.222841.381373@hip186.ch.intel.com> From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 07 May 1999 18:27:30 +0200 In-Reply-To: John Reynolds~'s message of "Wed, 5 May 1999 08:20:21 -0700 (MST)" Message-ID: Lines: 15 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.5/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org John Reynolds~ writes: > I wonder how we could get in on this fun ... > > http://www.mindcraft.com/openbenchmark.html > > I'm sure that 3.1-STABLE or some other variant could compete quite well at > this little game ... No. Don't you get it? The game is rigged. Mindcraft gets big money from Microsoft for doing these tests and making sure NT comes out on top. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 7 16:47: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D99B14C21 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 16:46:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA23635; Fri, 7 May 1999 16:46:54 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd023540; Fri May 7 16:46:44 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA01120; Fri, 7 May 1999 16:46:42 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199905072346.QAA01120@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: IBCS2 type question :) To: licia@o-o.org (Licia) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 23:46:42 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Licia" at May 6, 99 02:15:00 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Can anyone give me an idea of where to dig up information on IBCS2, and any > related information? (Is there an IBCS3, any discussions of doing IBCS2 with > Elf as well as COFF, etc?) Hope this is useful to you: ----------------------------------------------------------------------- IBCS/2 is the Intel Binary Compatability Standard, version 2. IBSC/2 is documented in the AT&T UNIX manuals, in the addendum for X86 processors. It's about 300 or so pages. There is not an IBCS/3. IBCS/2 mandates COFF. ELF is documented as it's own standard. The SVR4 compatible implementation of implies a system call mechanism, stack argument layout, and other things (one of which is that the kernel is expected to mmap the ld.so into the program image on behalf of the program at the time the executable is run, allowing statically linked programs to use dlopen, dlsym, et. al.; this is why the ELF entry point is set so high). There are several non-standard versions of ELF. These versions use system call interface and calling conventions that do not match standard ELF. As a result, in order to run non-native ABI binaries on these systems, the ELF image must be "branded", using a non-standard section tag that is missing from true ELF binaries (FreeBSD is one such system). Technically, FreeBSD is not an ELF system; neiterh is Linux. The IBCS/2 documentation is not available online, only abstracts by people who are documenting their own implementation of IBCS/2. If you are attempting to build a binary that will run on multiple machines, IBCS/2 is a better standard than ELF, since it specifies not only an ABI, but all installation tools, filesystem layout, system startup and shutdown integration, and many other things not normally considered to be part of an ABI. As of this writing, a "standard" platform for binaries uses the ELF object file format, the implicit system call and calling convention for SVR4.2 (and Solaris), and compliance with the Single UNIX Specification (formerly Spec 1170, so named for the 1,170 API entry points for the system call and system library interfaces that must be implemented to obtain compliance). In addition, there is unspecified information which is legacy from IBCS/2, specifically things like the init system and other daemon programs (System V has it's own line printer model, etc.), which must be provided for a system to be sure that it is capable of running code from a "true" UNIX system. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 7 16:54:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from o-o.org (o-o.org [207.252.201.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0620814C9B for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 16:54:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Received: from localhost (root@localhost) by o-o.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA05046 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 18:54:16 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from licia@o-o.org) Date: Fri, 7 May 1999 18:54:15 -0500 (CDT) From: Licia To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Is 86open still active? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Does anyone know if the 86open project is still alive? [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri May 7 17: 3:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDDC114EA5 for ; Fri, 7 May 1999 17:02:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.48]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.0) with ESMTP id AAA15351; Fri, 7 May 1999 19:01:20 -0400 Message-ID: <37337F3C.262F3408@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Fri, 07 May 1999 19:03:09 -0500 From: "Pedro F. Giffuni" Organization: U. Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Licia Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Is 86open still active? References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I asked a guy involved from SCO...it's dead. Pedro. Licia wrote: > Does anyone know if the 86open project is still alive? > > [ EMail : licia@o-o.org ] [ Name : Christine (Licia) Maxwell ] > [ Home : http://www.o-o.org/~licia/ ] [ Hobbies : write, program, web, chat ] > [ BBS : http://www.o-o.org/bbs/ ] [ Handles : Licia / LadyWolf / Sysop ] > [ OS : http://www.freebsd.org/ ] [ Profiled: finger profiled@o-o.org ] > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 8 10:40:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (quackerjack.cc.vt.edu [198.82.160.250]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4168614DA8 for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 10:40:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jobaldwi@vt.edu) Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by quackerjack.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA18657; Sat, 8 May 1999 13:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: from john.baldwin.cx (jobaldwi.campus.vt.edu [198.82.67.63]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA04335; Sat, 8 May 1999 13:40:02 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199905081622.RAA13541@mescalero.asd1.rl.ac.uk> Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 13:40:03 -0400 (EDT) From: John Baldwin To: Mark Blackman Subject: RE: FreeBSD/OpenBSD included in Open Source timeline. Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I suppose, but the article reveals that the writer hasn't done much research. KDE 1.0 came out last summer, so GNOME is hardly the first GUI for Unix. In fact, one could argue that X was the first GUI for Unix, since it provides all the graphics, and the base distribution includes the Athean widgets, twm, xterm, etc. which do provide a user interface, just not the fanciest. On 08-May-99 Mark Blackman wrote: > > http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/opensource/opensource_body.html > > Leaves out NetBSD(!) and lumps OpenBSD (timewise) with FreeBSD, but > encouraging to see otherwise. > > This was a link from a GNOME story on ABCnews. > > Mark > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message --- John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc "Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat May 8 11: 2:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C30D6150DA for ; Sat, 8 May 1999 11:02:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang.lariat.org (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26553; Sat, 8 May 1999 12:01:59 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990508115859.04443870@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.37 (Beta) Date: Sat, 08 May 1999 12:00:19 -0600 To: John Baldwin , Mark Blackman From: Brett Glass Subject: RE: FreeBSD/OpenBSD included in Open Source timeline. Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <199905081622.RAA13541@mescalero.asd1.rl.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org BOY, is this timeline wrong. It doesn't list any of the open source efforts that pre-date Stallman and GNU, nor does it mention that GPL != open source. This is the sort of FUD generated by the Linux PR machine. --Brett Glass At 01:40 PM 5/8/99 -0400, John Baldwin wrote: >I suppose, but the article reveals that the writer hasn't done much research. >KDE 1.0 came out last summer, so GNOME is hardly the first GUI for Unix. In >fact, one could argue that X was the first GUI for Unix, since it provides all >the graphics, and the base distribution includes the Athean widgets, twm, >xterm, etc. which do provide a user interface, just not the fanciest. > >On 08-May-99 Mark Blackman wrote: > > > > http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/opensource/opensource_body.html > > > > Leaves out NetBSD(!) and lumps OpenBSD (timewise) with FreeBSD, but > > encouraging to see otherwise. > > > > This was a link from a GNOME story on ABCnews. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-advocacy" in the body of the message > >--- > >John Baldwin -- http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/ >PGP Key: http://members.freedomnet.com/~jbaldwin/pgpkey.asc >"Power Users Use the Power to Serve!" - http://www.freebsd.org > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message