From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 19 19:16:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C00B9155E5; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 19:16:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id LAA07059; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:46:17 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 11:46:17 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Poul-Henning Kamp , "Brian F. Feldman" , FreeBSD Chat Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/systat vmstat.c Message-ID: <19990920114616.I55065@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990920101545.U55065@freebie.lemis.com> <199909200213.TAA56998@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199909200213.TAA56998@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>; from Rodney W. Grimes on Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 07:13:38PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Sunday, 19 September 1999 at 19:13:38 -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >> On Sunday, 19 September 1999 at 11:46:17 -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >>>> In message <199909191837.LAA55732@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>, "Rodney W. Grimes" writes >>>> : >>>> >>>>>> Or as IBM did many years ago "rotating platter mass storage device" :-) >>>>> >>>>> I thought there international work for Disc was ``Direct Access Storage >>>>> Device'' abbreviated as ``DASD'', pronounced as in DazzDee :-). >>>> >>>> I don't think that got used over here around '90 or so. There were >>>> also various conflicing terminologies, mostly one per on product line >>>> (series/1 vs 3x vs 3[67]0 etc etc). >>> >>> DASD was post 370 terminology, started about the time of the 3082/84 >>> series so 1990 would be about right for when IBM started to use it. >> >> I have here a book entitled "IBM 360 Assembler Language Programming", >> published by Wiley in 1970. On page 409, at the beginning of the >> chapter entitled "Direct Access Storage Devices (DASD)", I read >> >> DASDs available for System 360 are listed below. >> >> 1. Drive with removable disk packs: 2311 and 2314. >> 2. Drive with non-removable disk packs: 2302. >> 3. Drum: 2301 and 2303. >> 4. Data Cell drive: 2321. > > Your looking at technical manuals, yes, DASD has been in use there for > eons, I could probably find reference to it in 1401 documentation circa > 1964. But it was much much much later that IBM stated calling it DASD > in marketing data, as no one outside the technical crowd knew what it > was. Ah. > You'll also note that my circa 1969 ``Programming the IBM 1130'', > published by Wiley in 1969 makes no mention at all of DASD, uses > the word disk extensivly and references the model 2310 disk cartridge > drive (immediate predicessor to the 2311.) Well, no, you're going to have to note that for me :-) I suppose it's conceivable that the term grew up with the mainframe people at IBM and was adopted by the other groups at a later date. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 19 20: 1:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B27D14F66; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:01:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id MAA07427; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:31:36 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 12:31:36 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: "Brian F. Feldman" , FreeBSD Chat , skb@crl.com Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/systat vmstat.c Message-ID: <19990920123136.M55065@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990920100725.T55065@freebie.lemis.com> <199909200233.TAA57089@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199909200233.TAA57089@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>; from Rodney W. Grimes on Sun, Sep 19, 1999 at 07:33:33PM -0700 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moved to -chat] On Sunday, 19 September 1999 at 19:33:33 -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >> On Sunday, 19 September 1999 at 11:30:51 -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >>>> On Sun, 19 Sep 1999, Brian Feldman wrote: >>>> >>>>> green 1999/09/19 11:04:55 PDT >>>>> >>>>> Modified files: >>>>> usr.bin/systat vmstat.c >>>>> Log: >>>>> "Disks" is more correct than "Disks" could be. >>>> >>>> That seconds "Disks" should be "Discs" ;) >>> >>> In an international world ``Discs'' is the more correct form. >> >> Where do you get that from? > > I can't seem to find the article, but I believe it was a ``Devil's Advocate'' > column. Stan went on ad infitium about disc vs disk and even noted that > ``computer disk'' was really a sick usage. Interesting. Stan should know better. Of course, 'computer disk' sounds like 'software program'. That hurts. From the SOED: Disc, var. sp of DISK. Disk, disc (disk). 1664 [ad L. discus, a. Gr. diskos quoit, dish, disk. [...] Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Sep 19 20:37: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FDF1550E; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:37:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA57226; Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:36:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199909200336.UAA57226@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: cvs commit: src/usr.bin/systat vmstat.c In-Reply-To: <19990920123136.M55065@freebie.lemis.com> from Greg Lehey at "Sep 20, 1999 12:31:36 pm" To: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 20:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Cc: green@FreeBSD.org (Brian F. Feldman), chat@FreeBSD.org (FreeBSD Chat), skb@crl.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > [moved to -chat] I'll loose most of the rest, unless I'm cc'ed but I think we are about to the end of this one...] > > On Sunday, 19 September 1999 at 19:33:33 -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > >> On Sunday, 19 September 1999 at 11:30:51 -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > >>>> On Sun, 19 Sep 1999, Brian Feldman wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> green 1999/09/19 11:04:55 PDT > >>>>> > >>>>> Modified files: > >>>>> usr.bin/systat vmstat.c > >>>>> Log: > >>>>> "Disks" is more correct than "Disks" could be. > >>>> > >>>> That seconds "Disks" should be "Discs" ;) > >>> > >>> In an international world ``Discs'' is the more correct form. > >> > >> Where do you get that from? > > > > I can't seem to find the article, but I believe it was a ``Devil's Advocate'' > > column. Stan went on ad infitium about disc vs disk and even noted that > > ``computer disk'' was really a sick usage. > > Interesting. Stan should know better. Of course, 'computer disk' > sounds like 'software program'. That hurts. Perhaps it wasn't Stan :-). > >From the SOED: ^ [In my worst southern accent ``Ain't that there the English version....'' is there even an SOID?] Wonder how the SOLatinD, if one existed, entries might look: Disc, disk (disc). 1664 [ad L. discus, a. Gr. diskos quoit, dish, disk. [...] Disk, var. sp of DISC. :-). > > Disc, var. sp of DISK. > > Disk, disc (disk). 1664 [ad L. discus, a. Gr. diskos quoit, dish, > disk. [...] > > Greg -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 3: 2:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87E4B14D30; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 03:02:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA09347; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 06:02:46 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 06:02:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Cc: members@funy.org Subject: FUNY Installfest Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org ON September 22nd, this Wednesday, (Free)*BSD Users of New York will be holding an Install-fest. Anyone in the New York area (and outside) is invited. More information can be gotten from http://www.bsdunix.net or www.funy.org -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 5:37:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from db.geocrawler.com (db.gotocity.com [165.90.140.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DB4514C12 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 05:37:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nobody@db.geocrawler.com) Received: (from nobody@localhost) by db.geocrawler.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id HAA19338; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 07:38:33 -0500 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 07:38:33 -0500 Message-Id: <199909201238.HAA19338@db.geocrawler.com> To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: freely submit your web site From: "Geocrawler.com" Reply-To: "sanjay" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message was sent from Geocrawler.com by "sanjay" Be sure to reply to that address. Hello friends. You have a good Site and you want more and more People to visit your site.So here is a free way to add your site to my search site. Just goto to the site and fill up the form and follow the simple instructions. Just goto :http://www.rasharma.com/linksite.html Thanks Sanjay Sharma Geocrawler.com - The Knowledge Archive If you experience spam, please contact Geocrawler immediately. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 6:44:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from thelab.hub.org (nat203.199.mpoweredpc.net [142.177.203.199]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED4A21557B for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 06:44:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) Received: from localhost (scrappy@localhost) by thelab.hub.org (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA75277 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:44:48 -0300 (ADT) (envelope-from scrappy@hub.org) X-Authentication-Warning: thelab.hub.org: scrappy owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:44:48 -0300 (ADT) From: The Hermit Hacker To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Hotmail/NT issue ... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Awhile back, when M$ first bought out Hotmail, they tried to switch it over to NT and it failed...couldn't kep the servers stable or something to that effect... Or, at least, I *seem* to remember that... Now, I can't find anything on it :( Does anyone have any references I can use for an argument against using NT on a high-load server? Thanks... Marc G. Fournier ICQ#7615664 IRC Nick: Scrappy Systems Administrator @ hub.org primary: scrappy@hub.org secondary: scrappy@{freebsd|postgresql}.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 9:47:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D339414CCD for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 09:47:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13603; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:47:23 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990920104549.05b70cf0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 10:47:07 -0600 To: The Hermit Hacker , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Hotmail/NT issue ... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:44 AM 9/20/99 -0300, The Hermit Hacker wrote: >Does anyone have any references I can >use for an argument against using NT on a high-load server? http://www.unix-vs-nt.org/ --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 13:13:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gidora.zeta.org.au (gidora.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F031815BF2 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:13:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: (qmail 10570 invoked from network); 20 Sep 1999 20:13:02 -0000 Received: from d219.syd2.zeta.org.au (HELO ska.bsn) (203.26.9.91) by gidora.zeta.org.au with SMTP; 20 Sep 1999 20:13:02 -0000 Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA01686; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 06:26:12 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from andy) Message-Id: <199909202026.GAA01686@ska.bsn> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 06:26:09 +1000 (EST) From: atrn@zeta.org.au Subject: Re: Hotmail/NT issue ... To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Awhile back, when M$ first bought out Hotmail, they tried to switch it > over to NT and it failed...couldn't kep the servers stable or something to > that effect... > > Or, at least, I *seem* to remember that... > > Now, I can't find anything on it :( Does anyone have any references I can > use for an argument against using NT on a high-load server? There was a post to comp.os.linux.advocacy many months ago from an alleged hotmail employee denying all claims that they attempted to switch to NT. The usual archive(s) may have a copy if you look hard enough. This may not be what you want (you're trying to convince people why NT shouldn't be used right?) but it may be closer to the truth than the alleged attempted conversion. But then again MS have had Hotmail for long enough now that they may have tried. It would be useful for them to attempt to run such a service with their flagship OS so they really may have attempted to move it. I doubt it could do it but they could try nonetheless. -- Andy Newman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 13:23:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp02.primenet.com (smtp02.primenet.com [206.165.6.132]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F16E15327 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:22:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp02.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA19636; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:22:44 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp02.primenet.com, id smtpd019605; Mon Sep 20 13:22:36 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id NAA00669; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:22:31 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909202022.NAA00669@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: FreeBSD-bies To: fullermd@futuresouth.com (Matthew D. Fuller) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 20:22:31 +0000 (GMT) Cc: dannyman@dannyland.org, jcwells@u.washington.edu, freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990916161518.K16305@futuresouth.com> from "Matthew D. Fuller" at Sep 16, 99 04:15:18 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On Thu, Sep 16, 1999 at 01:09:36PM -0700, a little birdie told me > that dannyman remarked > > > > We use "Freeby" and "Freebs" around here. > > I'm now having a truely horrifying mental image of a cross between a > daemon and a Furby hovering over my while I sleep. > > Let's not and say we did. I'm still willing to buy 50 of these, or $5000 worth, whichever gets me more of them, if someone is willing to do the deal with Tiger electronics for a special production run of Daemon furbies. If the one-off costs are standard, this could work out to 200 of the things at a normal retail price, given their production costs. Standing offer, guys. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 13:24:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 9E82C15AF2; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:24:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D47F1CD58C; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:24:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 13:24:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Tor.Egge@fast.no Cc: chat@freebsd.org, dillon@apollo.backplane.com Subject: Re: request for review, patch to specfs to fix EOF condition alignment with buffer In-Reply-To: <199909202023.WAA38626@midten.fast.no> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 20 Sep 1999 Tor.Egge@fast.no wrote: > Actually, the problem was discussed in -stable under the topic > "Interesting way to crash a 3.2-stable box" around 1999-08-28. > > The discussion soon changed topic to > "Interesting ways to print 3000 spaces...". You mean there's a better way than "press the space bar 3000 times"? My, FreeBSD has everything! :-) Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 14: 6: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt014nb6.san.rr.com (dt014nb6.san.rr.com [24.30.129.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B263415C0E for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:06:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt014nb6.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA05819; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:04:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:04:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt014nb6.san.rr.com To: Kip Macy Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Joao Carlos , hitech@bahianet.com.br, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Out of mbuf clusters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Re-directed to -chat since none of the 3(!) lists were appropriate] On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, Kip Macy wrote: > Here is where your philosophy diverges from many others -- I and I believe > many others think that a server operating system should at least be robust > out of the box. You have a fundamental flaw in your logic here, and in most of the other sentences in this post. Namely, you fail to adequately define the problem domain that you're proposing freebsd as a solution for. More precisely, a server OS should be robust _for what application_ out of the box? > Neither Linux nor Solaris is vulnerable to running out of > mbufs as a result of malicious code. I don't think FreeBSD should be > either. So, how many mbuf clusters should freebsd assign in a default configuration, and how will you justify the massive amount of ram (massive relative to other kernel structures) that they will consume? Before you answer, keep in mind that I can direct an attack against your box that will easily consume more than 15,000 mbuf's without even breathing hard. (BTW, you're also wrong about linux and solaris not being vulnerable to high server load problems out of the box.) > This is in no way a rant against FreeBSD, but rather a rant against the > attitude that one needs to know about OS internals to run a lightweight > server. As someone else already pointed out, you don't need to know the OS internals to run a lightweight server. You DO need to know them to run a heavyweight server, or in the case of the original poster to run a clone flooding script designed to take down a heavyweight server. You cannot define a default configuration that will be perfect for every use. It's simply not possible. > If all of core insisted that Joe User had to know about internals > to use FreeBSD as a server, FreeBSD would be little more than a hobbyist > OS, But -core has stated explicitly that freebsd IS a hobbyist OS. I believe Jordan's exact words were that, "FreeBSD is a vanity OS by and for the developers." The fact that it's also useful for doing productive things is purely an accident, resulting from the fact that the hobbyists involved like to spend their time doing productive things. > rather than what it is -- the best OS currently available. Once again, this whole thesis is just plain silly. FreeBSD is not the best OS available for every possible application. It happens to be a really good OS for a lot of things, in fact I ran what was at the time the largest IRC server in the world on a freebsd machine. However my success came from long hours of learning about how the OS works, combined with a lot of help from knowledgeable people. A lot of what we learned is in the base system now, but I can pretty much guarantee you that it won't set any records for high performance servers "out of the box." Doug -- "My mama told me, my mama said, 'don't cry.' She said, 'you're too young a man to have as many women you got.' I looked at my mother dear and didn't even crack a smile. I said, 'If women kill me, I don't mind dyin!'" - John Belushi as "Joliet" Jake Blues, "I Don't Know" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 14:10:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from luna.lyris.net (luna.shelby.com [207.90.155.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8176814F76 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:10:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kip@lyris.com) Received: from luna.shelby.com by luna.lyris.net (8.9.1b+Sun/SMI-SVR4) id OAA04974; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:10:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from (luna.shelby.com [207.90.155.6]) by luna.shelby.com with SMTP (MailShield v1.50); Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:10:11 -0700 Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:09:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Kip Macy X-Sender: kip@luna To: Doug Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Joao Carlos , hitech@bahianet.com.br, chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Out of mbuf clusters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-SMTP-HELO: luna X-SMTP-MAIL-FROM: kip@lyris.com X-SMTP-RCPT-TO: Doug@gorean.org,des@flood.ping.uio.no,jcarlos@bahianet.com.br,hitech@bahianet.com.br,chat@freebsd.org X-SMTP-PEER-INFO: luna.shelby.com [207.90.155.6] Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org As I wrote in a later post which was posted only to a subset of the original: I stand corrected. On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, Doug wrote: > [Re-directed to -chat since none of the 3(!) lists were appropriate] > > On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, Kip Macy wrote: > > > Here is where your philosophy diverges from many others -- I and I believe > > many others think that a server operating system should at least be robust > > out of the box. > > You have a fundamental flaw in your logic here, and in most of the > other sentences in this post. Namely, you fail to adequately define the > problem domain that you're proposing freebsd as a solution for. More > precisely, a server OS should be robust _for what application_ out of the > box? > > > Neither Linux nor Solaris is vulnerable to running out of > > mbufs as a result of malicious code. I don't think FreeBSD should be > > either. > > So, how many mbuf clusters should freebsd assign in a default > configuration, and how will you justify the massive amount of ram (massive > relative to other kernel structures) that they will consume? Before you > answer, keep in mind that I can direct an attack against your box that > will easily consume more than 15,000 mbuf's without even breathing hard. > (BTW, you're also wrong about linux and solaris not being vulnerable to > high server load problems out of the box.) > > > This is in no way a rant against FreeBSD, but rather a rant against the > > attitude that one needs to know about OS internals to run a lightweight > > server. > > As someone else already pointed out, you don't need to know the OS > internals to run a lightweight server. You DO need to know them to run a > heavyweight server, or in the case of the original poster to run a clone > flooding script designed to take down a heavyweight server. You cannot > define a default configuration that will be perfect for every use. It's > simply not possible. > > > If all of core insisted that Joe User had to know about internals > > to use FreeBSD as a server, FreeBSD would be little more than a hobbyist > > OS, > > But -core has stated explicitly that freebsd IS a hobbyist OS. I > believe Jordan's exact words were that, "FreeBSD is a vanity OS by and for > the developers." The fact that it's also useful for doing productive > things is purely an accident, resulting from the fact that the hobbyists > involved like to spend their time doing productive things. > > > rather than what it is -- the best OS currently available. > > Once again, this whole thesis is just plain silly. FreeBSD is not > the best OS available for every possible application. It happens to be a > really good OS for a lot of things, in fact I ran what was at the time the > largest IRC server in the world on a freebsd machine. However my success > came from long hours of learning about how the OS works, combined with a > lot of help from knowledgeable people. A lot of what we learned is in the > base system now, but I can pretty much guarantee you that it won't set any > records for high performance servers "out of the box." > > Doug > -- > "My mama told me, my mama said, 'don't cry.' She said, 'you're too young a man > to have as many women you got.' I looked at my mother dear and didn't even > crack a smile. I said, 'If women kill me, I don't mind dyin!'" > > - John Belushi as "Joliet" Jake Blues, "I Don't Know" > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 14:19: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp05.primenet.com (smtp05.primenet.com [206.165.6.135]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C5D7214F7C for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:18:54 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr01.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp05.primenet.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA334050; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:18:45 -0700 Received: from usr01.primenet.com(206.165.6.201) via SMTP by smtp05.primenet.com, id smtpd_Kca7a; Mon Sep 20 14:18:36 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr01.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA03716; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:18:33 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909202118.OAA03716@usr01.primenet.com> Subject: Re: LinuxChix To: atrn@zeta.org.au Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:18:32 +0000 (GMT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909172108.HAA32032@ska.bsn> from "atrn@zeta.org.au" at Sep 18, 99 07:08:26 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > We need a video (no, not that type of video, get 'yer minds > out of the gutter...) Set to Mitch Ryder & the Detroit Wheels > version of "Devil With The Blue Dress" *. Dancing daemons. > > > (*) I can't imagine how lame a song about an obese penguin would be. I can (with appologies to Freddy): Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. -------------------------------------------------------------------- "Fat Bottomed Penguins" Are you gonna boot me up tonight? Ah downloaded from that Red Hat site Are you gonna load it over Windows 98? Fat bottomed penguins you make the Linux world go round Hey I was just a skinny lad Never knew no good from bad But I knew bash before I left my nursery Left alone with big fat penguins Down that road, no one wins Heap bad penguin you made a script kiddie out of me Hey hey! I've been cracking with my club Across the wire across the hub I've seen every acned script punk on the way But their `133tn3ss and their style Went kind of flat after a while Save me from them kiddies every time Oh won't you boot me up tonight Oh downloaded from that Red Hat site Oh and GNU owns all your code Fat bottomed penguins you make the Linux world go round Fat bottomed penguins you make the Linux world go round Hey listen here Now your mortgages and homes And the stiffness in your bones Ain't no millionaires in this locality (I tell you) Oh but I still get my source code But can't never sell it for a load Heap bad penguin you made a wage slave out of me Oh you gonna boot me up tonight (Please) Oh downloaded from that Red Hat site Oh and you know that GNU owns all your code? Fat bottomed penguins you make the Linux world go round Fat bottomed penguins you make the Linux world go round Load your editors and code (for someone else) Fat bottomed penguins Fat bottomed penguins -------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 14:36:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B29E91521C for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:36:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24057; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:36:06 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: The Hermit Hacker Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Hotmail/NT issue ... In-Reply-To: <199909202026.GAA01686@ska.bsn> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Awhile back, when M$ first bought out Hotmail, they tried to switch it > over to NT and it failed...couldn't kep the servers stable or something to > that effect... > > Or, at least, I *seem* to remember that... > > Now, I can't find anything on it :( Does anyone have any references I can > use for an argument against using NT on a high-load server? http://webserv.vnunet.com/www_user/plsql/pkg_vnu_search_mo.right_frame?p_story=52704 http://www.unix-vs-nt.org/kirch/ -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 14:36:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from implode.root.com (root.com [209.102.106.178]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20D191511E for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:36:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dg@implode.root.com) Received: from implode.root.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by implode.root.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA05349; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:33:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199909202133.OAA05349@implode.root.com> To: Doug Cc: Kip Macy , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Joao Carlos , hitech@bahianet.com.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Out of mbuf clusters In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:04:50 PDT." From: David Greenman Reply-To: dg@root.com Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 14:33:26 -0700 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >> If all of core insisted that Joe User had to know about internals >> to use FreeBSD as a server, FreeBSD would be little more than a hobbyist >> OS, > > But -core has stated explicitly that freebsd IS a hobbyist OS. I >believe Jordan's exact words were that, "FreeBSD is a vanity OS by and for >the developers." The fact that it's also useful for doing productive >things is purely an accident, resulting from the fact that the hobbyists >involved like to spend their time doing productive things. I don't recall Jordan ever saying that, and in any case I certainly don't think that way. For at least the past 3-4 years FreeBSD has absolutely been targeted for production server use. I guess when we started out we weren't that serious, but we sure are now. Obviously the system should never crash. The mbuf problem is a difficult one to solve and it may be awhile before we have a solution. In the meantime people who need to do high volume things will need to learn how to tune their machines to avoid problems. -DG David Greenman Co-founder/Principal Architect, The FreeBSD Project - http://www.freebsd.org Creator of high-performance Internet servers - http://www.terasolutions.com Pave the road of life with opportunities. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 15: 5:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 96D4F15409; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:05:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2AF1CD41E for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:05:18 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 15:05:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Are you an intelligent alien? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I just stumbled across the following pages: http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~mm4b/dutil-dumas.html http://metalab.unc.edu/lunar/alien.html The former is a series of encoded messages proposed for an "active SETI" project - the latter is a (presumably ;) fictitious set of received data for decoding. I think it would be a very cool challenge to try and decode these for yourself (without cheating! :) Well, it sure beats doing a crossword puzzle.. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 16:43:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dt014nb6.san.rr.com (dt014nb6.san.rr.com [24.30.129.182]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC16014F22 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:43:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt014nb6.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA07682; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:42:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 16:42:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug X-Sender: doug@dt014nb6.san.rr.com To: David Greenman Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , Joao Carlos , hitech@bahianet.com.br, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Out of mbuf clusters In-Reply-To: <199909202133.OAA05349@implode.root.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, David Greenman wrote: > >> If all of core insisted that Joe User had to know about internals > >> to use FreeBSD as a server, FreeBSD would be little more than a hobbyist > >> OS, > > > > But -core has stated explicitly that freebsd IS a hobbyist OS. I > >believe Jordan's exact words were that, "FreeBSD is a vanity OS by and for > >the developers." The fact that it's also useful for doing productive > >things is purely an accident, resulting from the fact that the hobbyists > >involved like to spend their time doing productive things. > > I don't recall Jordan ever saying that, and in any case I certainly don't > think that way. I may be overstating the case somewhat. :) This was in reference to a pseudo-advocacy thread a while back when I and several others specifically asked for a "Mission Statement" type dealie, because one of the problems facing the project currently is so many people working towards so many different goals. I certainly don't look at this as a "vanity OS" project, if I did I wouldn't contribute to it. And actually, I don't think Jordan does either. > For at least the past 3-4 years FreeBSD has absolutely been > targeted for production server use. I guess when we started out we weren't > that serious, but we sure are now. Ok, I think that "targeted for production server use" is as good a statement as any, not that I plan to hold you to it as gospel. My point in my original post was more to show that the idea of a "one size fits all" OS was not a good one, and in fact the person I responded to has since clarified his position to me in private mail. > Obviously the system should never crash. The mbuf problem is a difficult > one to solve and it may be awhile before we have a solution. In the meantime > people who need to do high volume things will need to learn how to tune > their machines to avoid problems. No argument here. Thanks, Doug -- "My mama told me, my mama said, 'don't cry.' She said, 'you're too young a man to have as many women you got.' I looked at my mother dear and didn't even crack a smile. I said, 'If women kill me, I don't mind dyin!'" - John Belushi as "Joliet" Jake Blues, "I Don't Know" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 17:49: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (ip-198-202.guate.net [209.198.197.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB95114D55 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 17:48:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from obonilla@voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu) Received: (from obonilla@localhost) by voyager.fisicc-ufm.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA10056 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:48:45 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from obonilla) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:48:45 -0600 From: Oscar Bonilla To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: The FreeBSD Song Book Message-ID: <19990920184844.A10040@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org while fooling around with my guitar playing some old beatles songs I wrote the following lyrics... maybe we should start the FreeBSD song book :) comments anyone? If i get the time, I'll continue with the rest of the songs... The Core Members Of FreeBSD (Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band) It was twenty years ago today, UC Berkeley gave the code away But they got sued by AT&T Then disbanded the CSRG. So may I introduce to you The folks you've know for all this years, The Core Members of FreeBSD. We're the core members of FreeBSD, We hope you will enjoy the code. We're the core members of FreeBSD, Sit back and let the install go. We are the core members, We are the core members We are core members of FreeBSD. It's wonderful to code here, it's certanly a thrill. It's such a lovely project, We'd like to give the code away, We'd like to give it free. I don't really want to block the code, But I thought that you might like to know, That jordan's going to make release, And he wants you all to be in code freeze. So let me introduce to you The one and only jkh And the core members of FreeBSD. Free B S D With A Little Help From The Lists (A Little Help From My Friends) What would you think if I patched up your code, Would you take my commit privs from me. Lend me your code and I'll make it compile And I'll try not to make it break style(9) I get by with a little help from the lists, I get high with a little help from the lists. Going to try with a little help from the lists. What do I do when the kernel won't run (Does it worry you to see a crash dump) How do I feel by the end of make world (Are you sad because it took too long) No I get by with a little help from the lists, Have you flamed anybody, I need somebody to flame. Could it be anybody I want somebody to flame. Would you believe in a patch that breaks style(9), Yes I'm certain that it happens all the time. What do you see when you run a traceroute I can't tell you, but I know its bad Oh I get by with a little help from the lists Have you flamed anybody, I need somebody to flame, Could it be anybody, I want somebody to flame. I get by with a little help from the lists, Yes I get by with a little help from the lists, With a little help from the lists. -- For PGP Public Key: finger obonilla@fisicc-ufm.edu To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 18:45:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 117121514D; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E546F1CD5B9; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:45:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 18:45:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Kris Kennaway To: Oscar Bonilla Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Song Book In-Reply-To: <19990920184844.A10040@fisicc-ufm.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, Oscar Bonilla wrote: > while fooling around with my guitar playing some old beatles songs > I wrote the following lyrics... maybe we should start the FreeBSD > song book :) Just as long as you don't publish any performances. Listening to RMS sing is (or should be) a very good reason for people not to use GNU software :-) Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 19:49:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (bachue.usc.unal.edu.co [168.176.3.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE8A914A0B for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 19:49:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from pfgiffun@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co) Received: from bachue.usc.unal.edu.co ([168.176.3.35]) by bachue.usc.unal.edu.co (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAAD98 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:14:32 -0400 Message-ID: <37E6E9CC.C6DF7E7A@bachue.usc.unal.edu.co> Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 21:13:32 -0500 From: "Pedro Fernando Giffuni" Organization: Universidad Nacional de Colombia X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {Sony} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: FreeBSD and Mechanical Engineering Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greetings Earthlings, I've been very busy lately and have not been able to attend the recent interest that FreeBSD has aroused! Evidently some of those 5 CD's that Jordan sent me long ago did had some effect when added to the fact that FreeBSD has received good press lately. In two weeks I have to submit an article about FreeBSD for the National Mechanical Engineering Congress that will be held in December in my University. I'll probably attempt to run an old version of AutoCAD under WINE, and show some of the FEM programs I have ported, but if someone has interesting links (other than SAL), experiences or code to share (in the ME area), I'll be glad to include them. FWIW, it will be quite a show, since I installed FreeBSD on my brand new SONY VAIO (PCI modem, unknown audio, but X works). cheers, Pedro. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Sep 20 22:12: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0047A14A05 for ; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 22:12:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id WAA20865 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 20 Sep 1999 22:12:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1999 22:11:59 -0700 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Head count for Berkeley BAFUG Message-ID: <19990920221159.C20786@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday Noon it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 21 1:16:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26E3114C30; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 01:16:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id KAA14308; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:15:03 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id KAA84908; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:21:00 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990921102058.37162@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 10:20:58 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Oscar Bonilla , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Song Book References: <19990920184844.A10040@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: ; from Kris Kennaway on Mon, Sep 20, 1999 at 06:45:45PM -0700 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Kris Kennaway writes: > On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, Oscar Bonilla wrote: > > > while fooling around with my guitar playing some old beatles songs > > I wrote the following lyrics... maybe we should start the FreeBSD > > song book :) > > Just as long as you don't publish any performances. > > Listening to RMS sing is (or should be) a very good reason for people not > to use GNU software :-) If only he'd been affected by laryngitis and not RSI :-) His singing really is awful (and that's a positive statement). -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 21 1:20:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (genesi.lnk.telstra.net [139.130.136.161]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49B24153C0; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 01:20:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Received: from cain.gsoft.com.au (doconnor@cain [203.38.152.97]) by cain.gsoft.com.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA01471; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:49:53 +0930 (CST) (envelope-from doconnor@gsoft.com.au) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3.1 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19990921102058.37162@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 17:49:53 +0930 (CST) From: "Daniel O'Connor" To: Phil Regnauld Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Song Book Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Oscar Bonilla , Kris Kennaway Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 21-Sep-99 Phil Regnauld wrote: > > Listening to RMS sing is (or should be) a very good reason for people not > > to use GNU software :-) > If only he'd been affected by laryngitis and not RSI :-) > His singing really is awful (and that's a positive > statement). Actually his pitch is fairly good, but the recording sucked :) --- Daniel O'Connor software and network engineer for Genesis Software - http://www.gsoft.com.au "The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from." -- Andrew Tanenbaum To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 21 2:12:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freebie.lemis.com (freebie.lemis.com [192.109.197.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDC8B154D1; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 02:12:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from grog@freebie.lemis.com) Received: (from grog@localhost) by freebie.lemis.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) id SAA20051; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:42:09 +0930 (CST) Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 18:42:09 +0930 From: Greg Lehey To: "Daniel O'Connor" Cc: Phil Regnauld , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG, Oscar Bonilla , Kris Kennaway Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Song Book Message-ID: <19990921184208.B55065@freebie.lemis.com> References: <19990921102058.37162@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: ; from Daniel O'Connor on Tue, Sep 21, 1999 at 05:49:53PM +0930 WWW-Home-Page: http://www.lemis.com/~grog X-PGP-Fingerprint: 6B 7B C3 8C 61 CD 54 AF 13 24 52 F8 6D A4 95 EF Organization: LEMIS, PO Box 460, Echunga SA 5153, Australia Phone: +61-8-8388-8286 Fax: +61-8-8388-8725 Mobile: +61-41-739-7062 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 21 September 1999 at 17:49:53 +0930, Daniel O'Connor wrote: > > On 21-Sep-99 Phil Regnauld wrote: >>> Listening to RMS sing is (or should be) a very good reason for people not >>> to use GNU software :-) >> If only he'd been affected by laryngitis and not RSI :-) >> His singing really is awful (and that's a positive >> statement). > > Actually his pitch is fairly good, but the recording sucked :) I was once brave enough to try to play his recorder. The fipple was blocked. Greg -- See complete headers for address, home page and phone numbers finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 21 7: 1:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gidora.zeta.org.au (gidora.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.25]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id B464C15173 for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 07:01:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: (qmail 8582 invoked from network); 21 Sep 1999 14:01:04 -0000 Received: from d234.syd2.zeta.org.au (HELO ska.bsn) (203.26.9.106) by gidora.zeta.org.au with SMTP; 21 Sep 1999 14:01:04 -0000 Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA03842; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 00:15:34 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from andy) Message-Id: <199909211415.AAA03842@ska.bsn> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 00:15:34 +1000 (EST) From: atrn@zeta.org.au Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Song Book To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 20 Sep, Kris Kennaway wrote: > Listening to RMS sing is (or should be) a very good reason for people not > to use GNU software :-) Funny. That's exactly what I said when I heard it... Come on hackers free the software, free the software. You'll be free. (on and on and on and on and on and on)... After a while its "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaagggggggggggggg. Shut the f... up!" The techno remix version with the Linus "My name is Linus and I pronounce Linux, Linux" sample is a whole lot better. Even if you don't like the techno drum thing. -- Andy Newman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 21 15:43:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0104D14E95; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:43:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29694; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 16:43:07 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990921135815.05b9f750@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1999 14:00:12 -0600 To: Phil Regnauld , Kris Kennaway From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Song Book Cc: Oscar Bonilla , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990921102058.37162@ns.int.ftf.net> References: <19990920184844.A10040@fisicc-ufm.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:20 AM 9/21/99 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: >Kris Kennaway writes: > > On Mon, 20 Sep 1999, Oscar Bonilla wrote: > > > > > while fooling around with my guitar playing some old beatles songs > > > I wrote the following lyrics... maybe we should start the FreeBSD > > > song book :) > > > > Just as long as you don't publish any performances. > > > > Listening to RMS sing is (or should be) a very good reason for people not > > to use GNU software :-) > > If only he'd been affected by laryngitis and not RSI :-) > > His singing really is awful (and that's a positive > statement). I think I've already postedexcerpts of the song I wrote about Stallman to this list.... It was inspired by one of his -- gagh -- performances. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Sep 21 15:48:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F7C1545D for ; Tue, 21 Sep 1999 15:48:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id AAA20361 for freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 00:48:40 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id 840DD8711; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 00:30:14 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 00:30:14 +0200 From: Ollivier Robert To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: The FreeBSD Song Book Message-ID: <19990922003014.A68412@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG References: <199909211415.AAA03842@ska.bsn> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <199909211415.AAA03842@ska.bsn> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF ctm#5593 AMD-K6 MMX @ 200 MHz Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to atrn@zeta.org.au: > The techno remix version with the Linus "My name is Linus and > I pronounce Linux, Linux" sample is a whole lot better. Even > if you don't like the techno drum thing. The WHAT?? Oh dear. The End Is Near, I fear :-) -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #74: Thu Sep 9 00:20:51 CEST 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 22 2:49:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20F4915106; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 02:49:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from freno.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.167]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id LAA15505; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:41:39 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by freno.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.9.1/8.9.0) id LAA27970; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:41:39 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:41:38 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Cc: wosch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Social Event in Berlin Message-ID: <19990922114138.A27917@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <19990909122236.A4223@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <19990909122236.A4223@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de>; from Wolfram Schneider on Thu, Sep 09, 1999 at 12:22:37PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1999-09-09 12:22:37 +0200, Wolfram Schneider wrote: > The event will at 9/10 October 1999, in Berlin. > If you are interested, please contact me: wosch@freebsd.org I'm expecting 15-20 Users at the BSD Social Event in Berlin. For more information about the social event please visit http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/berlin-1999-10-09/ -- Wolfram Schneider http://wolfram.schneider.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 22 2:56:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 091B115B4C; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 02:56:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id LAA09121; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 11:54:52 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id MAA92568; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:00:58 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990922120056.22816@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 12:00:56 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Wolfram Schneider Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wosch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Social Event in Berlin References: <19990909122236.A4223@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990922114138.A27917@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990922114138.A27917@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de>; from Wolfram Schneider on Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:41:38AM +0200 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Wolfram Schneider writes: > > I'm expecting 15-20 Users at the BSD Social Event in Berlin. > > For more information about the social event please visit > http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/berlin-1999-10-09/ Hmmm, it looks like this will mostly a German-speaking event :-) -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 22 13:42:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [205.129.32.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A61C714D56 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 13:42:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from David_W_Gray@tvratings.com) Received: from nielsenmedia.com (ibis.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.42.160]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16111 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:42:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.120]) by nielsenmedia.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id QAA07526 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:41:59 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:38:14 -0400 Message-ID: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366016@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David W." To: "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: Compupic Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:43:16 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org For those who have been working on getting the Linux version of Compupic running on FreeBSD (see earlier mail on -current in the archives), check out http://unix.compupic.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 22 15:33: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E8D601551D for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 15:32:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 549 invoked from network); 22 Sep 1999 22:32:20 -0000 Received: from userao59.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.135.175) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 22 Sep 1999 22:32:20 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id XAA01549; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:23:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:23:09 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: "Gray, David W." Cc: "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: Re: Compupic Message-ID: <19990922232309.D781@marder-1> References: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366016@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366016@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com>; from Gray, David W. on Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 04:43:16PM -0400 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 04:43:16PM -0400, Gray, David W. wrote: > For those who have been working on getting the Linux version of Compupic > running on FreeBSD (see earlier mail on -current in the archives), check > out http://unix.compupic.com > Err, the link to the FreeBSD d/l is broken: Not Found The requested URL /files/compupic-4.6.1012-i386-freebsd.tar.gz was not found on this server. Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. Apache/1.3.3 Server at unix.compupic.com Port 80 > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 22 16:37:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from norn.ca.eu.org (cr965240-b.abtsfd1.bc.wave.home.com [24.113.19.137]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01C0D154AD for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:37:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cpiazza@norn.ca.eu.org) Received: by norn.ca.eu.org (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 7CCB5746; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:37:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1999 16:37:31 -0700 From: Chris Piazza To: Mark Ovens Cc: "Gray, David W." , 'FreeBSD Chat List' Subject: Re: Compupic Message-ID: <19990922163731.C34671@norn.ca.eu.org> References: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366016@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> <19990922232309.D781@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <19990922232309.D781@marder-1> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:23:09PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 04:43:16PM -0400, Gray, David W. wrote: > > For those who have been working on getting the Linux version of Compupic > > running on FreeBSD (see earlier mail on -current in the archives), check > > out http://unix.compupic.com > > > > Err, the link to the FreeBSD d/l is broken: > > Not Found > > The requested URL /files/compupic-4.6.1012-i386-freebsd.tar.gz was > not found on this server. > > Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying > to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. > > Apache/1.3.3 Server at unix.compupic.com Port 80 http://unix.compupic.com/files/compupic-4.6.1017-i386-freebsd.tar.gz I just looked at the version they said it was and changed the file name.. -Chris -- /* cpiazza@home.net cpiazza@FreeBSD.org * *"The more I study religions the more I am convinced * * that man never worshipped anything but himself." * * --Sir Richard F. Burton */ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 22 17:23:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id CC18D14DEE for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:23:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 18985 invoked from network); 23 Sep 1999 00:23:15 -0000 Received: from userap73.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.136.34) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 1999 00:23:15 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id BAA06085; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 01:07:41 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 01:07:41 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Chris Piazza Cc: "Gray, David W." , "'FreeBSD Chat List'" , Phil Regnauld Subject: Re: Compupic Message-ID: <19990923010741.A6035@marder-1> References: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366016@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> <19990922232309.D781@marder-1> <19990922163731.C34671@norn.ca.eu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19990922163731.C34671@norn.ca.eu.org> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 04:37:31PM -0700, Chris Piazza wrote: > On Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 11:23:09PM +0100, Mark Ovens wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 04:43:16PM -0400, Gray, David W. wrote: > > > For those who have been working on getting the Linux version of Compupic > > > running on FreeBSD (see earlier mail on -current in the archives), check > > > out http://unix.compupic.com > > > > > > > Err, the link to the FreeBSD d/l is broken: > > > > Not Found > > > > The requested URL /files/compupic-4.6.1012-i386-freebsd.tar.gz was > > not found on this server. > > > > Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying > > to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request. > > > > Apache/1.3.3 Server at unix.compupic.com Port 80 > > http://unix.compupic.com/files/compupic-4.6.1017-i386-freebsd.tar.gz > > I just looked at the version they said it was and changed the file > name.. > Doh! Someone else suggested that, but when I tried it it gave the same error but it worked using urlview(1) on your e-mail. When I looked closer I'd made a typo when I tried before. Anyway, I've got it now. Thanks. > -Chris > -- > /* cpiazza@home.net cpiazza@FreeBSD.org * > *"The more I study religions the more I am convinced * > * that man never worshipped anything but himself." * > * --Sir Richard F. Burton */ > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 22 22:31:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F19B31585C for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 22:28:48 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem10.masternet.it [194.184.65.20]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA96788 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:28:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:33:17 +0200 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: Compupic In-Reply-To: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366016@nmrusdunsx1.niels enmedia.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 22/09/99, you wrote: >For those who have been working on getting the Linux version of Compupic >running on FreeBSD (see earlier mail on -current in the archives), check >out http://unix.compupic.com I am not able to run it : gmarco:/usr/tmp/compupic# ./compupic [any options] compupic: abnormal termination: (null) This is my env: FreeBSD gmarco.eclipse.org 4.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #0: Mon Sep 20 09:40:42 CEST 1999 gmarco@gmarco.eclipse.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/GMARCO i386 The box is a dual P2 400mhz with Xaccel 5.02 and G200. Any other that is experienced this ? I'll try on my 3.3-STABLE box at work later... Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Sep 22 23:26:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from freenix.no (freenix.no [195.139.70.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F22E9154A8 for ; Wed, 22 Sep 1999 23:26:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from morten@freenix.no) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by freenix.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA05862 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:27:45 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:27:45 +0200 (METDST) From: "Morten A. Middelthon" To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Compupic In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > At 22/09/99, you wrote: > >For those who have been working on getting the Linux version of Compupic > >running on FreeBSD (see earlier mail on -current in the archives), check > >out http://unix.compupic.com > > I am not able to run it : > > gmarco:/usr/tmp/compupic# ./compupic [any options] > compupic: abnormal termination: (null) > > This is my env: > FreeBSD gmarco.eclipse.org 4.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #0: Mon Sep 20 > 09:40:42 CEST > 1999 gmarco@gmarco.eclipse.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/GMARCO i386 > > The box is a dual P2 400mhz with Xaccel 5.02 and G200. > > Any other that is experienced this ? > I'll try on my 3.3-STABLE box at work later... I just tried it on a 3.3-STABLE box (PII 400MHz, 192MB ram) with XFree86 3.3.5 and a RivaTNT gfx-card and got: harkonnen:~/tmp/compupic> ./compupic compupic: abnormal termination: (null) The README only mentions how to run it on various Linux distributions. -- Morten A. Middelthon Freenix Norge http://www.freenix.no/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 23 0: 2:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from paert.tse-online.de (paert.tse-online.de [194.97.69.172]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 421001554E for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 00:01:14 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ab@paert.tse-online.de) Received: (qmail 50602 invoked by uid 1000); 23 Sep 1999 07:04:27 -0000 Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:04:27 +0200 From: Andreas Braukmann To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compupic Message-ID: <19990923090427.P34470@paert.tse-online.de> References: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366016@nmrusdunsx1.niels enmedia.com> <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> Organization: TSE GmbH - Neue Medien Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 23, 1999 at 07:33:17AM +0200, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > At 22/09/99, you wrote: > FreeBSD gmarco.eclipse.org 4.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #0: Mon Sep 20 > 09:40:42 CEST > 1999 gmarco@gmarco.eclipse.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/GMARCO i386 FreeBSD paert.tse-online.de 4.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #0: Sun Jul 18 18:30:50 CEST 1999 toor@paert.tse-online.de:/home/src/sys/compile/ABWS-SMP i386 > The box is a dual P2 400mhz with Xaccel 5.02 and G200. dual PPro/200 with Xaccel 5.02 Millenium 2 > Any other that is experienced this ? yes. paert:[/home/ab/sw-eval/compupic] > ./compupic compupic: abnormal termination: (null) Before dying compupic shows its small splash-logo, tries to open another (bigger) window and then just dies. > I'll try on my 3.3-STABLE box at work later... I'll try on my 3.2-stable box at work later ... It's running a XFree86 X-Server. -andreas -- : TSE GmbH Neue Medien : Gsf: Arne Reuter : : : Hovestrasse 14 : Andreas Braukmann : We do it with : : D-48351 Everswinkel : HRB: 1430, AG WAF : FreeBSD/SMP : :--------------------------------------------------------------------: : Anti-Spam Petition: http://www.politik-digital.de/spam/ : : PGP-Key: http://www.tse-online.de/~ab/public-key : : Key fingerprint: 12 13 EF BC 22 DD F4 B6 3C 25 C9 06 DC D3 45 9B : To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 23 1:33:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mercury.gfit.net (ns.gfit.net [209.41.124.90]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94E7D14E6C for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 01:33:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tom@embt.com) Received: from paranor.embt.net (timembt.iinc.com [206.67.169.229]) by mercury.gfit.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id DAA20157 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 03:37:31 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tom@embt.com) Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19990923043323.009fd9c8@mail.embt.com> X-Sender: tembt@mail.embt.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:33:23 -0400 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org From: Tom Embt Subject: Re: Compupic In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 08:27 AM 9/23/99 +0200, you wrote: >On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > >> At 22/09/99, you wrote: >> >For those who have been working on getting the Linux version of Compupic >> >running on FreeBSD (see earlier mail on -current in the archives), check >> >out http://unix.compupic.com >> >> I am not able to run it : >> >> gmarco:/usr/tmp/compupic# ./compupic [any options] >> compupic: abnormal termination: (null) >> >> This is my env: >> FreeBSD gmarco.eclipse.org 4.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #0: Mon Sep 20 >> 09:40:42 CEST >> 1999 gmarco@gmarco.eclipse.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/GMARCO i386 >> >> The box is a dual P2 400mhz with Xaccel 5.02 and G200. >> >> Any other that is experienced this ? >> I'll try on my 3.3-STABLE box at work later... > >I just tried it on a 3.3-STABLE box (PII 400MHz, 192MB ram) with XFree86 >3.3.5 and a RivaTNT gfx-card and got: > >harkonnen:~/tmp/compupic> ./compupic >compupic: abnormal termination: (null) > >The README only mentions how to run it on various Linux distributions. > Just fetched it, working just dandy for me here. It could still use some features and UI work.. but it did start right up. One other thing I noticed is that it seemed to consume excessive CPU cycles, and cause the X server to do the same (Linux version did too). I installed it something like follows (from memory): cd /usr/local tar xzvf /path/to/compupic-4.6.1017-i386-freebsd.tar.gz cd compupic gzip compupic.1 && mv compupic.1.gz /usr/local/man/man1 cd ../bin ln -s /usr/local/compupic/compupic cd rehash compupic & (i mighta missed something there, like i said this is from memory) It's worth noting that I previously had the Linux version on this machine so something may very well be different on my box compared to a pristine one. Machine is SMP -current of a recent vintage. FWIW I do seem to recall once I couldn't make the Linux version of CPIC open because I didn't have enough physical RAM free, though looking at the machine description in the message above I doubt that's the problem. Well I'm gonna go toy with it s'more and see if I can take a guess at what's going on. Tom Embt tom@embt.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 23 1:42:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (mail.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A788E15F40; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 01:42:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from wosch@cs.tu-berlin.de) Received: from freno.cs.tu-berlin.de (wosch@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de [130.149.17.167]) by mail.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id KAA24236; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:35:15 +0200 (MET DST) Received: (from wosch@localhost) by freno.cs.tu-berlin.de (8.9.1/8.9.0) id KAA06473; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:35:14 +0200 (MET DST) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:35:14 +0200 From: Wolfram Schneider To: Phil Regnauld Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG, wosch@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: BSD Social Event in Berlin Message-ID: <19990923103513.A6052@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> References: <19990909122236.A4223@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990922114138.A27917@freno.cs.tu-berlin.de> <19990922120056.22816@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <19990922120056.22816@ns.int.ftf.net>; from Phil Regnauld on Wed, Sep 22, 1999 at 12:00:56PM +0200 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 1999-09-22 12:00:56 +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Wolfram Schneider writes: > > > > I'm expecting 15-20 Users at the BSD Social Event in Berlin. > > > > For more information about the social event please visit > > http://www.de.freebsd.org/de/gif/berlin-1999-10-09/ > > Hmmm, it looks like this will mostly a German-speaking event :-) Yes. BTW, if someone want visit Poland, the next border crossing is only 76km from my home. A medium-size bicyle tour ;-) -- Wolfram Schneider http://wolfram.schneider.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 23 7: 9:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6187C15025 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:09:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA42764; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:08:13 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:08:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compupic In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi all, On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > I am not able to run it : > > gmarco:/usr/tmp/compupic# ./compupic [any options] > compupic: abnormal termination: (null) > This is my env: FreeBSD gmarco.eclipse.org 4.0-CURRENT FreeBSD > 4.0-CURRENT #0: Mon Sep 20 09:40:42 CEST I have the same problem here on my 3.2-STABLE machine. Brett ***************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 23 7:22: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from reliant.nielsenmedia.com (reliant.nielsenmedia.com [205.129.32.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A52CB1588B for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:22:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from David_W_Gray@tvratings.com) Received: from nielsenmedia.com (ibis.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.42.160]) by reliant.nielsenmedia.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA13349 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:20:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com (nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com [10.9.11.120]) by nielsenmedia.com (8.8.7/8.6.9) with ESMTP id KAA01317 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:20:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: by nmrusdunsxg0.nielsenmedia.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:16:30 -0400 Message-ID: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366018@nmrusdunsx1.nielsenmedia.com> From: "Gray, David W." To: "'FreeBSD Chat List'" Subject: Re: Re: Compupic Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:21:31 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FWIW, I am running 3.2Release on the box I tested on (UP 300MhzPII, 64M ram, XFree86 SVGA server). Runs great here (albeit, if you point it at a NFS mounted dir, it hammers hell out of the network. Note that the Linux version did this, but was also unstable, e.g. garbage files were appearing and disappearing at random in the thumbnail display.) 'Course, if it ran on my 2.2.6 box (it doesn't, and I didn't expect it to), I wouldn't need to use an NFS link, to begin with. OH, just a thought, if you have been running the Linux version, remove your .compupic directory in your home directory first. Also, it wouldn't run when I (accidentaly) tried to run it as root (come to think of it, there may've been a .compupic dir in /root, I gotta go look...) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 23 7:22:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFA615025 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:22:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gummibear@mediaone.net) Received: from g7b5g3 (we-24-130-62-170.we.mediaone.net [24.130.62.170]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id HAA10142 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:22:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990923071436.0079d4a0@we.mediaone.net> X-Sender: gummibear@we.mediaone.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 07:14:36 -0700 To: chat@freebsd.org From: Joey Garcia Subject: 32BitsOnline - More than one way to compute? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hey all! Okay, this kinda has been ticking me off for awhile now. This is about one of those average geek sites that you'll find on the internet. Supposedly, it's for everybody, but....as you'll see it's not. If you go to www.32bitsonline.com you'll notice their little slogan "Because There's More Than One Way to Compute". You'll also notice that it's basically 99% Linux oriented. There's also tons of links to other Linux sites and maybe a couple of sites that are non Linux oriented. Even the polls are Linux oriented. Anyways, here's my gripe. Okay, if they are claiming that there is more than one way to compute, then why is this site so Linux focused? Why not have more articles or links to other articles (ala Slashdot) to topics other than Linux. Maybe topics based on *BSD, Mac OS X, Solaris, AIX, or whatever? Sure they might complain about not receiving any submissions covering those operating systems, but what excuse do they have for the rest of the site being so Linux focused? I don't know about you, but I think that their little slogan is a bunch of bullshit, because they obviously don't support "more than one way to compute". Joey Joey "bsd_usr" Garcia BSD Users of Los Angeles, Founder http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/bsdusersoflosangeles bsd_usr@yahoo.com, gummibear@mediaone.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 23 8: 6:57 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monster.abyss.net (dark.abyss.net [207.198.22.202]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94C1815EBF for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 08:06:53 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ksb@abyss.net) Received: from nightmare.abyss.net (ksb@nightmare.abyss.net [10.0.0.3]) by monster.abyss.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA96944; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:52:34 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from ksb@abyss.net) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:05:50 -0400 (EDT) From: "Kevin S. Brackett" To: Brett Taylor Cc: Gianmarco Giovannelli , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compupic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Easy fix: ln -s /path/to/compupic/binary /usr/local/bin/compupic It seems to want to respawn the program so being in $PATH fixes the problem. - kevin On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > Hi all, > > On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > > > I am not able to run it : > > > > gmarco:/usr/tmp/compupic# ./compupic [any options] > > compupic: abnormal termination: (null) > > > This is my env: FreeBSD gmarco.eclipse.org 4.0-CURRENT FreeBSD > > 4.0-CURRENT #0: Mon Sep 20 09:40:42 CEST > > I have the same problem here on my 3.2-STABLE machine. > > Brett > ***************************************************** > Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * > Dept of Chem and Physics * > Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * > ***************************************************** > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 23 9: 7:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75722160E9 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 09:07:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA43258; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:06:36 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 12:06:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Brett Taylor To: Joey Garcia Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 32BitsOnline - More than one way to compute? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990923071436.0079d4a0@we.mediaone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Joey, On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Joey Garcia wrote: > If you go to www.32bitsonline.com you'll notice their little slogan > "Because There's More Than One Way to Compute". You'll also notice that > it's basically 99% Linux oriented. There's also tons of links to other > Linux sites and maybe a couple of sites that are non Linux oriented. Even > the polls are Linux oriented. > Anyways, here's my gripe. Okay, if they are claiming that there is more > than one way to compute, then why is this site so Linux focused? Here's a guess (and I'm not associated w/ these guys at all) - they probably see the "One way to compute" as Windows. They probably also see Linux as the one true king (heir apparent), hence their bias. Shrug - I know they had a FreeBSD article in at least one issue as I remember linking to it for DaemonNews. Brett ***************************************************** Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 23 10:19:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E4D8714F34 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:19:24 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 26251 invoked from network); 23 Sep 1999 17:19:01 -0000 Received: from useraa97.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.130.97) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 23 Sep 1999 17:19:01 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id SAA00685; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:10:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:10:11 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: "Kevin S. Brackett" Cc: Brett Taylor , Gianmarco Giovannelli , chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Compupic Message-ID: <19990923181011.A283@marder-1> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 23, 1999 at 11:05:50AM -0400, Kevin S. Brackett wrote: > Easy fix: > > ln -s /path/to/compupic/binary /usr/local/bin/compupic > > It seems to want to respawn the program so being in $PATH fixes the > problem. > This is what the Linux installation does. I tried the Linux TAR version first which has an installer that makes the symlink for you. Incidentally, the Linux version gave exactly the same "abnormal termination: (null)" error. You are running the FreeBSD native version, aren't you? If it's the Linux one the fix that I found in the -current mail archive: 1. move or rename /usr/compat. 2. Start compupic (it will start OK now). 3. Exit compupic 4. Move /usr/compat back into place. 5. Run compupic (it will continue to run OK now) > - kevin > > On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Brett Taylor wrote: > > > Hi all, > > > > On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > > > > > I am not able to run it : > > > > > > gmarco:/usr/tmp/compupic# ./compupic [any options] > > > compupic: abnormal termination: (null) > > > > > This is my env: FreeBSD gmarco.eclipse.org 4.0-CURRENT FreeBSD > > > 4.0-CURRENT #0: Mon Sep 20 09:40:42 CEST > > > > I have the same problem here on my 3.2-STABLE machine. > > > > Brett > > ***************************************************** > > Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * > > Dept of Chem and Physics * > > Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * > > ***************************************************** > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 23 10:48:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6657215F93 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 10:48:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24579; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:04:54 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 11:04:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Joey Garcia Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: 32BitsOnline - More than one way to compute? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990923071436.0079d4a0@we.mediaone.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 23 Sep 1999, Joey Garcia wrote: > Hey all! > > Okay, this kinda has been ticking me off for awhile now. This is about one > of those average geek sites that you'll find on the internet. Supposedly, > it's for everybody, but....as you'll see it's not. > > If you go to www.32bitsonline.com you'll notice their little slogan > "Because There's More Than One Way to Compute". You'll also notice that > it's basically 99% Linux oriented. There's also tons of links to other > Linux sites and maybe a couple of sites that are non Linux oriented. Even > the polls are Linux oriented. > > Anyways, here's my gripe. Okay, if they are claiming that there is more > than one way to compute, then why is this site so Linux focused? Why not > have more articles or links to other articles (ala Slashdot) to topics > other than Linux. Maybe topics based on *BSD, Mac OS X, Solaris, AIX, or > whatever? > > Sure they might complain about not receiving any submissions covering those > operating systems, but what excuse do they have for the rest of the site > being so Linux focused? > > I don't know about you, but I think that their little slogan is a bunch of > bullshit, because they obviously don't support "more than one way to compute". So submit and article to them, and try to avoid the BSD vs. Linux stuff, it's been played to death. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 23 15: 0:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawaii.conterra.com (hawaii.conterra.com [209.12.164.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9858314FAC for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 15:00:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from myself@conterra.com) Received: from dmaddox.conterra.com (root@dmaddox.conterra.com [209.12.169.48]) by hawaii.conterra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04704; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:00:02 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from myself@localhost) by dmaddox.conterra.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id SAA01857; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:00:07 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from myself) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1999 18:00:07 -0400 From: "Donald J . Maddox" To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compupic Message-ID: <19990923180007.B1554@dmaddox.conterra.com> Reply-To: dmaddox@conterra.com References: <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366016@nmrusdunsx1.niels enmedia.com> <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Sep 23, 1999 at 07:33:17AM +0200, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > At 22/09/99, you wrote: > >For those who have been working on getting the Linux version of Compupic > >running on FreeBSD (see earlier mail on -current in the archives), check > >out http://unix.compupic.com > > I am not able to run it : > > gmarco:/usr/tmp/compupic# ./compupic [any options] > compupic: abnormal termination: (null) > > This is my env: > FreeBSD gmarco.eclipse.org 4.0-CURRENT FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT #0: Mon Sep 20 > 09:40:42 CEST > 1999 gmarco@gmarco.eclipse.org:/usr/src/sys/compile/GMARCO i386 > > The box is a dual P2 400mhz with Xaccel 5.02 and G200. > > Any other that is experienced this ? > I'll try on my 3.3-STABLE box at work later... I had exactly the same problem when I initially tried to run it... Apparently, it *has* to live in /usr/local/compupic. Once I moved it to that location, it worked just fine. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Sep 23 22:29: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scotty.masternet.it (scotty.masternet.it [194.184.65.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE91F15075 for ; Thu, 23 Sep 1999 22:28:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from suzy (modem17.masternet.it [194.184.65.27]) by scotty.masternet.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA02193; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:27:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990924072818.01200400@194.184.65.4> X-Sender: gmarco@scotty.masternet.it X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 07:32:16 +0200 To: dmaddox@conterra.com From: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: Compupic Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990923180007.B1554@dmaddox.conterra.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366016@nmrusdunsx1.niels enmedia.com> <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 23/09/99, Donald J . Maddox wrote: >I had exactly the same problem when I initially tried to run it... >Apparently, it *has* to live in /usr/local/compupic. Once I moved >it to that location, it worked just fine. Uhm... if you put in /usr/local/compupic and then : cd /usr/local/compupic ./compupic it doesn't work... but if you ln -sf /usr/local/compupic/compupic in /usr/local/bin and then launch compupic from everywhere it works ... Mah... strange thing :-) Best Regards, Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 1:12:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.bfm.org (mail.bfm.org [216.127.218.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8E7014D71 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 01:12:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Stanislav@mail.bfm.org) Received: from WhizKid (r22.bfm.org [216.127.220.118]) by mail.bfm.org (Post.Office MTA v3.5 release 215 ID# 0-52399U2500L250S0V35) with SMTP id org; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 03:11:54 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990924030446.009bd3d0@mail85.pair.com> X-Sender: whizkid@mail85.pair.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 03:04:46 -0500 To: Joey Garcia , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: "G. Adam Stanislav" Subject: Re: 32BitsOnline - More than one way to compute? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990923071436.0079d4a0@we.mediaone.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:14 23-09-1999 -0700, Joey Garcia wrote: >Anyways, here's my gripe. Okay, if they are claiming that there is more >than one way to compute, then why is this site so Linux focused? Why not >have more articles or links to other articles (ala Slashdot) to topics >other than Linux. Maybe topics based on *BSD, Mac OS X, Solaris, AIX, or >whatever? Hi, Joey, They probably do not know any better. Many Linux users think there are only two ways to compute, Windows and Linux. Since Linux is generally marketed as the alternative to Windows, I would say by the "one way" they mean Windows. It is perfectly conceivable that whoever is behind the web site originally knew of only one way - Windows, then discovered there indeed is more than one way when they learned about Linux. But perhaps they are completely unaware there are more than two ways. :-) Adam To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 5: 0:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from finch-post-10.mail.demon.net (finch-post-10.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0D1614D62 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 05:00:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from aw1@stade.co.uk) Received: from stade.demon.co.uk ([158.152.29.164]) by finch-post-10.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11UU1g-000MPg-0A for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:00:33 +0000 Received: from titus.stade.co.uk (titus.stade.co.uk [192.168.1.5]) by stade.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA17181 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:17:17 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1@titus.stade.co.uk) Received: (from aw1@localhost) by titus.stade.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA47517 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:14:51 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from aw1) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 08:14:51 +0100 From: Adrian Wontroba To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: the hazards of overclocking - a pointer for the FAQ? Message-ID: <19990924081450.A43188@titus.stade.co.uk> Reply-To: aw1@stade.co.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.5i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.3-STABLE Organization: Yes, I need some of that. X-Phone: +(44) 121 681 6677 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Perhaps http://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/99/Sep/overclock.html should be referenced somewhere in chapter 12 of the FAQ? -- Adrian Wontroba To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 12:39:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from ns.mt.sri.com (ns.mt.sri.com [206.127.79.91]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ACCB15DF0 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:38:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nate@mt.sri.com) Received: from mt.sri.com (rocky.mt.sri.com [206.127.76.100]) by ns.mt.sri.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA21657; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:38:20 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from nate@rocky.mt.sri.com) Received: by mt.sri.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA28660; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:38:19 -0600 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:38:19 -0600 Message-Id: <199909241938.NAA28660@mt.sri.com> From: Nate Williams MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: dima@rdy.com, imp@village.org (Warner Losh), jkh@zippy.cdrom.com (Jordan K. Hubbard), archie@whistle.com (Archie Cobbs), chat@FreeBSD.org Subject: Re: doscmd maintainer? In-Reply-To: <199909241921.MAA03743@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> References: <199909241912.MAA03691@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <199909241921.MAA03743@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> X-Mailer: VM 6.34 under 19.16 "Lille" XEmacs Lucid Reply-To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org { Moved to -chat, in an attempt to get this where it belongs... } [ Attaching maintainer hats to unsuspecting patch providers ] > > > > > : I'll get the hot glue gun! > > > > > > > > > > Nah, get the pneumatic stable gun :-) > > > > > > > > Too easy to remove, how about the pneumatic rivscrew gun... > > > > or the pop rivit gun?? :-) > > > > > > Guys, you're too violent ... a combination of a crazy glue and and a rivit gun > > > will hold it for sure :-) > > > > Ever tried to staple/rivscrew/rivet a MAINTANIERS tag to a person who > > is running away from you??? Ya gotta get the job done quickly, and that > > means the pneumatic tools with the strap on your back air bottle :-) > > Hey.. it just hit me... anyone have a pneumatic hot glue gun???? I've got one of the mini-torches, I suspect we could hack something together and build a portable hot-glue gun with it. It heats up *really* quick, fast enough for the new maintainer to not even know what hit them. Nate To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 12:56:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FCD4155ED for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:56:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA03930; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:55:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199909241955.MAA03930@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: doscmd maintainer? In-Reply-To: <199909241938.NAA28660@mt.sri.com> from Nate Williams at "Sep 24, 1999 01:38:19 pm" To: nate@mt.sri.com (Nate Williams) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 12:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > { Moved to -chat, in an attempt to get this where it belongs... } [ CC: list trimmed to -chat to get those off it that might not like all the CC's. Most are probably not on -chat, myself included :-(, thread dies soon automagically....] > [ Attaching maintainer hats to unsuspecting patch providers ] > > > > > > > : I'll get the hot glue gun! > > > > > > > > > > > > Nah, get the pneumatic stable gun :-) > > > > > > > > > > Too easy to remove, how about the pneumatic rivscrew gun... > > > > > or the pop rivit gun?? :-) > > > > > > > > Guys, you're too violent ... a combination of a crazy glue and and a rivit gun > > > > will hold it for sure :-) > > > > > > Ever tried to staple/rivscrew/rivet a MAINTANIERS tag to a person who > > > is running away from you??? Ya gotta get the job done quickly, and that > > > means the pneumatic tools with the strap on your back air bottle :-) > > > > Hey.. it just hit me... anyone have a pneumatic hot glue gun???? > > I've got one of the mini-torches, I suspect we could hack something > together and build a portable hot-glue gun with it. It heats up > *really* quick, fast enough for the new maintainer to not even know what > hit them. Heat activated contact cement??? Quick where's my patent applications :-) -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 13: 9:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (ferg5200-1-45.cpinternet.com [208.149.16.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4372114E0C; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:08:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA23295; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:08:10 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:08:10 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: gary@eyelab.psy.msu.edu Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14315.55666.529851.717631@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org : I would immediately unsubscribe to any isp that decided this was acceptable : behavior on their part. I use the mail server at work for all my outgoing : mail. Why? Because the machine is lightly loaded and I don't have to : worry about my mail getting lost in the depths of my isp's mail server for : a couple hours .... Amen. For that matter, I'd much rather have my private data on the public wire than on an independently administered server's disk -- make them at least take the trouble to run a sniffer in order to see the data! [But let's redirect this to chat.] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 13:42:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA0A714F48 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:42:07 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA04155; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:41:43 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199909242041.NAA04155@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: doscmd maintainer? In-Reply-To: <199909242015.OAA49673@harmony.village.org> from Warner Losh at "Sep 24, 1999 02:15:58 pm" To: imp@village.org (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:41:43 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@freebsd.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Redirected to -chat with the rest of this, CC: nuked] > In message <199909241921.MAA03743@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: > : Hey.. it just hit me... anyone have a pneumatic hot glue gun???? > > I've got access to a pneumatic caulk gun. Chances are good little > modification would be required :-) No modification needed, now where is that tube of liquid nails at??? :-/ Or does Eastman/Kodak 910 come in the 20 Oz Tube size??? -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 13:49:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2A314C3B for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:49:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03345; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:48:14 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990924144336.04490ba0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:48:03 -0600 To: alk@pobox.com, gary@eyelab.psy.msu.edu From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <14315.55666.529851.717631@avalon.east> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Our community network's mail server refuses connections from dialups, and this has cut our spam by about 80-90%. Many ISPs also firewall outgoing TCP sessions on port 25 to prevent "hit and run" spam from throwaway accounts. Neither is an ideal solution, but until authenticated mail becomes widespread, there will be no better methods for avoiding spam. See http://maps.vix.com/dul/ --Brett At 03:08 PM 9/24/99 -0500, Anthony Kimball wrote: >: I would immediately unsubscribe to any isp that decided this was acceptable >: behavior on their part. I use the mail server at work for all my outgoing >: mail. Why? Because the machine is lightly loaded and I don't have to >: worry about my mail getting lost in the depths of my isp's mail server for >: a couple hours .... > >Amen. For that matter, I'd much rather have my private data on the >public wire than on an independently administered server's disk -- >make them at least take the trouble to run a sniffer in order to >see the data! > >[But let's redirect this to chat.] > > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 14: 0:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (ferg5200-1-45.cpinternet.com [208.149.16.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 153D514DAE for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:00:13 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id PAA23479; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:58:35 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:58:35 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: brett@lariat.org Cc: gary@eyelab.psy.msu.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups References: <14315.55666.529851.717631@avalon.east> <4.2.0.58.19990924144336.04490ba0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14315.58757.824117.496696@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth Brett Glass on Fri, 24 September: : : See http://maps.vix.com/dul/ : Personally, I'd love to see a the results of a liability suit against the DUL project for damages resulting from non-delivery of mail as a result of intentional blocking by a third party to the exchange. Whee fun! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 14: 7:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85D0F150E8 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:07:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:05:53 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: , Cc: , Subject: RE: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:05:53 -0700 Message-ID: <000001bf06d0$9652db80$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <14315.58757.824117.496696@avalon.east> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Quoth Brett Glass on Fri, 24 September: > : > : See http://maps.vix.com/dul/ > : > Personally, I'd love to see a the results of a liability suit > against the DUL project for damages resulting from non-delivery > of mail as a result of intentional blocking by a third party > to the exchange. Whee fun! As far as I know, nobody is under a positive obligation to carry your mail to its destination unless you employ them to do so. So this "intentional blocking" (as you call it) is a failure to do something they are under no obligation to do anyway. I don't see how any liability could result from it. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 14:10:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A02714C8E for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:10:20 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03616; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:09:51 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990924150759.044826d0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:09:40 -0600 To: alk@pobox.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups Cc: gary@eyelab.psy.msu.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <14315.58757.824117.496696@avalon.east> References: <14315.55666.529851.717631@avalon.east> <4.2.0.58.19990924144336.04490ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Delivery of e-mail across the Internet is NEVER guaranteed, and, if it's blocked, there's usually immediate notification. Also, system administrators have the right to restrict their systems as they will. The DUL merely provides a list that they can elect to use. Therefore, I doubt that there are grounds for any sort of lawsuit. --Brett Glass At 03:58 PM 9/24/99 -0500, Anthony Kimball wrote: >Quoth Brett Glass on Fri, 24 September: >: >: See http://maps.vix.com/dul/ >: >Personally, I'd love to see a the results of a liability suit >against the DUL project for damages resulting from non-delivery >of mail as a result of intentional blocking by a third party >to the exchange. Whee fun! > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 14:13:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from hawaii.conterra.com (hawaii.conterra.com [209.12.164.32]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B8214C8E for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:13:09 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from myself@conterra.com) Received: from dmaddox.conterra.com (root@dmaddox.conterra.com [209.12.169.48]) by hawaii.conterra.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA19868; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:12:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from myself@localhost) by dmaddox.conterra.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id RAA01522; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:12:52 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from myself) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:12:52 -0400 From: "Donald J . Maddox" To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Cc: dmaddox@conterra.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Compupic Message-ID: <19990924171252.A1301@dmaddox.conterra.com> Reply-To: dmaddox@conterra.com References: <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> <01D4D419B1A4D111A30400805FE65B1303366016@nmrusdunsx1.niels <4.2.0.58.19990923072707.01793be0@194.184.65.4> <19990923180007.B1554@dmaddox.conterra.com> <4.2.0.58.19990924072818.01200400@194.184.65.4> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre1i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990924072818.01200400@194.184.65.4> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Yeah, looks like you're right... I forgot I had also added the link into my path. Having 'compupic' in the path looks like the real key. On Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 07:32:16AM +0200, Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > At 23/09/99, Donald J . Maddox wrote: > >I had exactly the same problem when I initially tried to run it... > >Apparently, it *has* to live in /usr/local/compupic. Once I moved > >it to that location, it worked just fine. > > Uhm... if you put in /usr/local/compupic and then : > cd /usr/local/compupic > ./compupic > > it doesn't work... > > but if you ln -sf /usr/local/compupic/compupic in /usr/local/bin and then > launch compupic from everywhere it works ... > > Mah... strange thing :-) > > > > Best Regards, > Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" > http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco > http://www2.masternet.it > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 14:15:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (ferg5200-1-45.cpinternet.com [208.149.16.45]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AA5F15261 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:15:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id QAA23562; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 16:15:26 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 16:15:26 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: brett@lariat.org Cc: gary@eyelab.psy.msu.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups References: <14315.55666.529851.717631@avalon.east> <4.2.0.58.19990924144336.04490ba0@localhost> <14315.58757.824117.496696@avalon.east> <4.2.0.58.19990924150759.044826d0@localhost> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14315.59636.927570.497528@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth Brett Glass on Fri, 24 September: : The DUL merely provides a list that they : can elect to use. It's the addition of my host to the DUL that I think might be actionable if it causes damages. What if I publish a list of the IPs of "known communists" or "race traitors", and you block me? And what if I'm not a communist? : Therefore, I doubt that there are grounds for : any sort of lawsuit. That's what would be fun to see:-) I'm human, so I hate spam, naturlich, but I think this blacklisting is *destroying* the value of the Internet (while spam only gnaws at it), so I would definitely vote to award damages, if I was on a jury. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 14:21:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE6A214C81 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:21:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03797; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:21:12 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990924151847.044829c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:21:01 -0600 To: alk@pobox.com From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups Cc: gary@eyelab.psy.msu.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <14315.59636.927570.497528@avalon.east> References: <14315.55666.529851.717631@avalon.east> <4.2.0.58.19990924144336.04490ba0@localhost> <14315.58757.824117.496696@avalon.east> <4.2.0.58.19990924150759.044826d0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:15 PM 9/24/99 -0500, Anthony Kimball wrote: >It's the addition of my host to the DUL that I think might be >actionable if it causes damages. What if I publish a list >of the IPs of "known communists" or "race traitors", and you >block me? And what if I'm not a communist? You don't understand: The DUL is primarily opt-in. ISPs *want* their dialups to be blocked so they're not blamed for spam. See http://maps.vix.com/dul/adding.htm --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 14:37:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from rover.village.org (rover.village.org [204.144.255.49]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D326D150AB for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:37:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (harmony.village.org [10.0.0.6]) by rover.village.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12658; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:36:56 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from imp@harmony.village.org) Received: from harmony.village.org (localhost.village.org [127.0.0.1]) by harmony.village.org (8.9.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id PAA50064; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:37:22 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <199909242137.PAA50064@harmony.village.org> To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Subject: Re: doscmd maintainer? Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 24 Sep 1999 13:41:43 PDT." <199909242041.NAA04155@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> References: <199909242041.NAA04155@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:37:22 -0600 From: Warner Losh Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In message <199909242041.NAA04155@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> "Rodney W. Grimes" writes: : No modification needed, now where is that tube of liquid nails at??? :-/ : Or does Eastman/Kodak 910 come in the 20 Oz Tube size??? Hmmm, I don't think it does around here. You'll have to look elsewhere :-(. Warner To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 14:41:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F00C150AB for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:41:39 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA07805; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:40:57 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpd007652; Fri Sep 24 14:40:51 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA26254; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:40:44 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909242140.OAA26254@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 21:40:43 +0000 (GMT) Cc: alk@pobox.com, gary@eyelab.psy.msu.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990924144336.04490ba0@localhost> from "Brett Glass" at Sep 24, 99 02:48:03 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Our community network's mail server refuses connections from dialups, and > this has cut our spam by about 80-90%. Many ISPs also firewall outgoing TCP > sessions on port 25 to prevent "hit and run" spam from throwaway accounts. > > Neither is an ideal solution, but until authenticated mail becomes widespread, > there will be no better methods for avoiding spam. Authenticate mail is an abomination before God. I believe we will all rue that day that Qualcomm was able to cram RFC 2554 through the IETF. Let us pray that "ATRN" does not make it through committee. The real fix for this is not to add Rube Goldberg frobs onto every protocol in existance to provide for authentication for that particular protocol, but to go to IPv6 and enable TLS (there are TLS retrofits, such as SSL, for IPv4, as well, which allow for running an smtp daemon out of inetd.conf on an alternate port, using SSLeay to do the encapsulation; this is how SSL LDAP is normally configured). If you must implement a technical soloution, the following is the best I have seen so far: What is really needed in terms of identifying SPAM'mers is the concepts of the RBL, combined with a ceertificate server that is willing to sign time-limited certificates, which act as "licenses" to send email. A "caller ID" for email. This soloution, unlike the Qualcomm "SMTP AUTH+ATRN" soloution, is capable of being implemented incrementally, and transparently for servers which need to communicate with older email clients. If the server answers the phone with a "250-ESMTP" followed by a list of extensions which includes "250-CALLID", the client is expected to present its certificate. If it doesn't, the server contacts the certificate server and asks "would you sign the certificate for this machine, were it to ask you to sign one?". If the answer is "yes", then the transaction proceeds as if a valid certificate had been presented. If the answer is "no", then the caller is identified as a SPAM'mer. This also alleviates the problem of RICO Statute violations based on Blacklisting (the RBL is incorporated as an LLP for a reason), since the server operator can decide which list of certificate servers to respect, and this list can include servers run by SPAM "providers" for people who want to get their email. I also think that the dialup list is a very bad idea. The intent of this list is to blacklist the entirety of the existing shared IPv4 address space. The fix for this is, again, IPv6. Another obvious problem with the dialup list is that it shifts, successfully, the responsibility for the content coming from an ISPs customer to the ISP. ISPs already have a hard enough time in not being granted common carrier status. An ISP will enforce aUP based on a notification, and using the DUL as a club to threaten ISPs with violence is not the correct way to go. We have seen in Australia what the loss of common carrier status for ISPs results in: the ability to impose state-enforced content censorship at the dorrs of "those responsible", i.e. the ISPs. I, for one, dilike the idea of putting a single control knob in the hands of even the US government, let alone governments I don't trust, and which are less inclined to agree to the concept of personal liberty. If such a knob exists, such governments will use it, as the Australia censorship situation has amply demonstrated. The blacklist of dialup will soon have to expand, and in fact it will have to blacklist any host IP configured via a stateless autoconfiguration mechanism. This is acceptable for IPv4, since link.local is defined to be non-routable; however, in IPv6, stateless autoconfiguration results in a routable address. THIS WAS AN INTENDED IPv6 DESIGN GOAL. Given the availability of a technology that doesn't require an MIS staff to ride herd on one or more aspects of machine configuration, I can't possibly believe that the techology will not find wide deployment. The idea that someone using what amounts to an anonymous space for autoconfiguration (whether it be via link.local, IPv6 stateless autoconfiguration, or ...dialup IP address assignment) should not be permitted to send email is fundamentally flawed. Once again, the CALLID extension would resolve this, by using the certificate, not the IP address, to identify the user as a non-SPAM'mer. Overreacting, and making it so that dialup servers can not send email does no one any good, and bringing almost every system on the planet into that fold when IPv6 is widely deployed is, well, there's no kind way to say it: moronic. Complicating an otherwise simple protocol with SASL based authentication is, likewise, moronic. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 14:55:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.primenet.com (smtp03.primenet.com [206.165.6.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64A9114DA3 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:55:38 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr05.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp03.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28985; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:54:46 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr05.primenet.com(206.165.6.205) via SMTP by smtp03.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAlfaWL4; Fri Sep 24 14:54:39 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA26546; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 14:55:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909242155.OAA26546@usr05.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups To: alk@pobox.com Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 21:55:10 +0000 (GMT) Cc: brett@lariat.org, gary@eyelab.psy.msu.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <14315.59636.927570.497528@avalon.east> from "Anthony Kimball" at Sep 24, 99 04:15:26 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > : The DUL merely provides a list that they > : can elect to use. > > It's the addition of my host to the DUL that I think might be > actionable if it causes damages. What if I publish a list > of the IPs of "known communists" or "race traitors", and you > block me? And what if I'm not a communist? > > : Therefore, I doubt that there are grounds for > : any sort of lawsuit. > > That's what would be fun to see:-) > > I'm human, so I hate spam, naturlich, but I think this blacklisting > is *destroying* the value of the Internet (while spam only gnaws at > it), so I would definitely vote to award damages, if I was on a jury. Any blacklisting, like the RBL and/or the DUL, is potentially actionable under current "Restraint of Trade" laws and under the RICO "Anti-Racketeering" statutes. There also may be a cause of action under the Sherman Antitrust Act, and under the First Ammendment (as "prior restraint" by systems which have not yet been abused by an abuser who has found himself placed on a list). The RBL is less of a problem in this regard, since it has a more stringent requirement for involuntary entry, which could be argued as defacto, rather than dejure, voluntary entry into the list. This is a shaky legal construct, and it still begs the question of "prior restraint", even if it dodges the other issues. The DUL is on much shakier ground, since many ISPs dialup address assignment blocks have been entered involuntarily, without an offense by the particular address being placed in the list. [E.g. contrary to Brett's Claim, it is _not_ an "opt-in" list.] Sane ISPs _do not like_ the dialup list; it holds them responsible for their customer's content via the threat of the RBL for the ISP, and via the requirement that they act as a relay for their customer's email. As a relay, without common carrier status, the ISP can be held legally responsible for the content of traffic coming over their wires, since their sesrver systems participated in the traffic. As we have seen in Australia, creating chokepoints with ergonomic government-finger-shaped finger-grooves is a Bad Thing(tm). Philosophically, I support the RBL, and I detest the DUL. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 15: 3:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1731D14CF6 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:03:31 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:03:04 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" , Cc: Subject: RE: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:03:04 -0700 Message-ID: <000201bf06d8$932f5ac0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <199909242155.OAA26546@usr05.primenet.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Any blacklisting, like the RBL and/or the DUL, is potentially > actionable under current "Restraint of Trade" laws and under the > RICO "Anti-Racketeering" statutes. There also may be a cause of > action under the Sherman Antitrust Act, and under the First > Ammendment (as "prior restraint" by systems which have not yet > been abused by an abuser who has found himself placed on a list). It is no more blacklisting than requiring a password to log into a computer blacklists everyone without a password. It doesn't prevent any content from going anywhere, it simply sets technical requirements upon the _form_. > The DUL is on much shakier ground, since many ISPs dialup address > assignment blocks have been entered involuntarily, without an > offense by the particular address being placed in the list. Yes, it's one of the many limitations that come with the access provided. There are tons of others. Access to the Internet is not a blank check to send any packet to any place you might wish to send it. Being on the DUL is not a punishment of any sort. It's simply a means to require a technical requirement, namely that mail be handled by machines that have long-term reachability. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 15:39:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D96414FAF; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 15:39:22 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA14340; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:37:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:37:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Mark Murray Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Joe Abley , current@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups In-Reply-To: <199909241014.MAA91015@gratis.grondar.za> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I totally agree with this, while it doesn;t stop all spam (and some has to be added manually to my own lists) I've dramatically cut down on spam to my machines. DUL, while I'm not sure whether we should take this to -chat or not since we are now getting into noise on the -current list, is also a good thing. simply because noone on a dialup has reason to be sending mail directly to me, they should be sending it through thier ISP's mail servers. overall MAPS is the best thing to come along for spam control since ...I don;t know when. They aren;t as "strict" as ORB and Paul Vixie's attitude towa5rds it has been excellent. Its much easier to get off RBL than it is ORB, especially if you are on it by mistake, like a friend of mine was. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Fri, 24 Sep 1999, Mark Murray wrote: > > Do you know about the RBL? How do you feel about it? We are using > > it via DNS and BGP on a test basis right now. I have had legitimate > > important mail blocked at Freebsd.org due to the source being on the > > RBL, but that is a price I am willing to pay. > > The RBL is great! There is a teensy bit of colateral damage, but not > so much that I worry about it. Here in ZA, our USP traffic provider > (Teleglobe) uses RBL, thus absolving us of the responsibility. Since > we started getting this "cleanfeed", spam has dropped dramatically. > > What I particularly enjoy about the RBL is its strong sense of the > need to listen to its client base, and to adapt as necessary. Paul > Vixie has a high degree of respect, as a consequence. > > M > -- > Mark Murray > Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-current" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 16:19:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F781152C5 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 16:19:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from tlambert@usr04.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA12808; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 16:18:30 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr04.primenet.com(206.165.6.204) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAmrai8y; Fri Sep 24 16:18:25 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id QAA16152; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 16:19:10 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199909242319.QAA16152@usr04.primenet.com> Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups To: davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 23:19:09 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, alk@pobox.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <000201bf06d8$932f5ac0$021d85d1@youwant.to> from "David Schwartz" at Sep 24, 99 03:03:04 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > Any blacklisting, like the RBL and/or the DUL, is potentially > > actionable under current "Restraint of Trade" laws and under the > > RICO "Anti-Racketeering" statutes. There also may be a cause of > > action under the Sherman Antitrust Act, and under the First > > Ammendment (as "prior restraint" by systems which have not yet > > been abused by an abuser who has found himself placed on a list). > > It is no more blacklisting than requiring a password to log into > a computer blacklists everyone without a password. It doesn't > prevent any content from going anywhere, it simply sets technical > requirements upon the _form_. Legally, you're wrong. The technicality you are trying to use is the "select group" technicality, where you grant priviledge to a select group of people. This is commonly used in defense of trade secrets, where your select group is, e.g., "Everyone who has signed an SVR4 source license agreement". This doesn't work when you attempt to define an "everybody but X" group. It doesn't matter if "X" is "whites" or "blacks" or "people with Brazialian ancestry" or "people who don't have static IP addresses, either because they are unavailable in their region, or because they are too poor". Technically, you are also wrong, since it is the non-existance of the "credential" in the DUL that grants access. > > The DUL is on much shakier ground, since many ISPs dialup address > > assignment blocks have been entered involuntarily, without an > > offense by the particular address being placed in the list. > > Yes, it's one of the many limitations that come with the access provided. It's a social, not a technical limitation. It opens the door for similar enforcement of other social policies, dictated by the larger society rather than the online society. Really, this is a technology problem, in that technology should be built to be inherently impossible to implement non-technologically required controls. > There are tons of others. Access to the Internet is not a blank check to > send any packet to any place you might wish to send it. Actually, it is. Just as you are free to say anything you want, at least if you live in the US. Don't confuse the right to speak with some fictitious "right to be heard" (though the mainstream media seems to be getting good at confusing this). > Being on the DUL is not a punishment of any sort. It's simply a > means to require a technical requirement, namely that mail be > handled by machines that have long-term reachability. Which is a social requirement, not a technical one. Technically, transient connectivity to the Internet is what backup MX's are designed for. To make an analogy: there's no difference between a server doing dialup IP and a cell phone roaming between cells. The only issue is one of identity, and identity should be centralized at the machine (via a certificate) rather than at a central DUL that is so dull that it can't tell the difference between machines with different certificates, but using the same IP address. Nor should it be stored haphazardlay in a random set of databases as login/password pairs. The fix is a per user credential, or minimally, a per machine credential, for the case of a single user machine. Much of the existing "AntiSPAM" practice, while it has been truly well intentioned, has resulted in a balkanization of email connectivity, to the point that the Internet really no longer meets its initial design goals, at least in as far as email is concerned. Having only a single path between all servers for any given source and destination email address is broken. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 16:35:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FAAA15268 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 16:35:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05143; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:34:28 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990924172733.047be8c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:34:22 -0600 To: Terry Lambert From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups Cc: alk@pobox.com, gary@eyelab.psy.msu.edu, chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909242140.OAA26254@usr05.primenet.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990924144336.04490ba0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Terry: In your message below, you express disapproval of both the DUL and authentication. Unfortunately, the solution you DO propose does not appear to solve the problem of hit-and-run attacks from throwaway dial-up accounts (for which the ISP would need to provide certificates -- or use its own and risk having it voided if someone sent spam). Many other questions arise, too, including: What authority issues the certificates? What if one is stolen? A legitimate user whose certificate is stolen could lose vital mail. People don't take the time to sign PGP keys now. Will they be willing to go through the hassle of signing e-mail certificates? For us, the DUL seems to work quite well; I, for one, have never lost a legitimate e-mail because of it. And I watch the logs. --Brett At 09:40 PM 9/24/99 +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Our community network's mail server refuses connections from dialups, and > > this has cut our spam by about 80-90%. Many ISPs also firewall outgoing TCP > > sessions on port 25 to prevent "hit and run" spam from throwaway accounts. > > > > Neither is an ideal solution, but until authenticated mail becomes widespread, > > there will be no better methods for avoiding spam. > >Authenticate mail is an abomination before God. I believe we will >all rue that day that Qualcomm was able to cram RFC 2554 through >the IETF. Let us pray that "ATRN" does not make it through >committee. > > >The real fix for this is not to add Rube Goldberg frobs onto >every protocol in existance to provide for authentication for >that particular protocol, but to go to IPv6 and enable TLS >(there are TLS retrofits, such as SSL, for IPv4, as well, which >allow for running an smtp daemon out of inetd.conf on an alternate >port, using SSLeay to do the encapsulation; this is how SSL LDAP >is normally configured). > > >If you must implement a technical soloution, the following is >the best I have seen so far: > >What is really needed in terms of identifying SPAM'mers is the >concepts of the RBL, combined with a ceertificate server that is >willing to sign time-limited certificates, which act as "licenses" >to send email. A "caller ID" for email. > >This soloution, unlike the Qualcomm "SMTP AUTH+ATRN" soloution, is >capable of being implemented incrementally, and transparently for >servers which need to communicate with older email clients. If >the server answers the phone with a "250-ESMTP" followed by a list >of extensions which includes "250-CALLID", the client is expected >to present its certificate. If it doesn't, the server contacts >the certificate server and asks "would you sign the certificate >for this machine, were it to ask you to sign one?". If the answer >is "yes", then the transaction proceeds as if a valid certificate >had been presented. If the answer is "no", then the caller is >identified as a SPAM'mer. > >This also alleviates the problem of RICO Statute violations based >on Blacklisting (the RBL is incorporated as an LLP for a reason), >since the server operator can decide which list of certificate >servers to respect, and this list can include servers run by >SPAM "providers" for people who want to get their email. > > > >I also think that the dialup list is a very bad idea. The intent >of this list is to blacklist the entirety of the existing shared >IPv4 address space. > >The fix for this is, again, IPv6. > >Another obvious problem with the dialup list is that it shifts, >successfully, the responsibility for the content coming from an >ISPs customer to the ISP. ISPs already have a hard enough >time in not being granted common carrier status. An ISP will >enforce aUP based on a notification, and using the DUL as a club >to threaten ISPs with violence is not the correct way to go. > >We have seen in Australia what the loss of common carrier status >for ISPs results in: the ability to impose state-enforced content >censorship at the dorrs of "those responsible", i.e. the ISPs. I, >for one, dilike the idea of putting a single control knob in the >hands of even the US government, let alone governments I don't >trust, and which are less inclined to agree to the concept of >personal liberty. If such a knob exists, such governments will >use it, as the Australia censorship situation has amply demonstrated. > > >The blacklist of dialup will soon have to expand, and in >fact it will have to blacklist any host IP configured via a >stateless autoconfiguration mechanism. This is acceptable for >IPv4, since link.local is defined to be non-routable; however, >in IPv6, stateless autoconfiguration results in a routable >address. THIS WAS AN INTENDED IPv6 DESIGN GOAL. > >Given the availability of a technology that doesn't require an >MIS staff to ride herd on one or more aspects of machine >configuration, I can't possibly believe that the techology >will not find wide deployment. > >The idea that someone using what amounts to an anonymous space >for autoconfiguration (whether it be via link.local, IPv6 >stateless autoconfiguration, or ...dialup IP address assignment) >should not be permitted to send email is fundamentally flawed. > >Once again, the CALLID extension would resolve this, by using >the certificate, not the IP address, to identify the user as >a non-SPAM'mer. > > >Overreacting, and making it so that dialup servers can not send >email does no one any good, and bringing almost every system on >the planet into that fold when IPv6 is widely deployed is, well, >there's no kind way to say it: moronic. > >Complicating an otherwise simple protocol with SASL based >authentication is, likewise, moronic. > > > Terry Lambert > terry@lambert.org >--- >Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present >or previous employers. > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 17: 2: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5CDC1513E for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:01:56 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id TAA39273; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:00:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id SAA01240; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:41:05 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 18:41:05 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups In-Reply-To: <199909242155.OAA26546@usr05.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 24 Sep 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] >Any blacklisting, like the RBL and/or the DUL, is potentially >actionable under current "Restraint of Trade" laws and under the >RICO "Anti-Racketeering" statutes. There also may be a cause of >action under the Sherman Antitrust Act, and under the First >Ammendment (as "prior restraint" by systems which have not yet >been abused by an abuser who has found himself placed on a list). I hope you are wrong on this point. The notion that the "internet" is a _public_ asset is nonsense. As long as it exists as a number of private entities funding their own voluntary participation, I don't see how any of these "acts" apply. Otherwise you are faced with the oxymoron of denying first amendment freedoms to one group to protect the first amendment rights of another. There is no right either explicitly stated or implied in any constitution that I've seen that guarantees anyone the right to freely use private assets -- which is exactly what spammers do. To be fair -- you are probably right in your assessment. Constitutions don't appear to mean much anymore and an actionable suit will probably be filed in the near future. If such a suit succeeds, it's probably time to leave the "internet." -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 17:26: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.webmaster.com (mail.webmaster.com [209.133.28.73]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0E8114C08 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:25:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from davids@webmaster.com) Received: from whenever ([209.133.29.2]) by shell.webmaster.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-12345L500S10000V35) with SMTP id com; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:24:58 -0700 From: "David Schwartz" To: "Terry Lambert" Cc: , Subject: RE: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:24:58 -0700 Message-ID: <000601bf06ec$663326a0$021d85d1@youwant.to> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 8.5, Build 4.71.2377.0 In-Reply-To: <199909242319.QAA16152@usr04.primenet.com> Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The technicality you are trying to use is the "select group" > technicality, where you grant priviledge to a select group of > people. This is commonly used in defense of trade secrets, > where your select group is, e.g., "Everyone who has signed an > SVR4 source license agreement". The "select group" is anyone with a static IP address. DS To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 17:32:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tok.qiv.com (tok.qiv.com [205.238.142.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46EA71526D for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:32:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by tok.qiv.com (MailHost/Current) with UUCP id TAA39306; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:30:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (jdn@localhost) by acp.qiv.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id TAA01273; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:04:07 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from jdn@acp.qiv.com) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:04:07 -0500 (CDT) From: Jay Nelson To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups In-Reply-To: <199909242319.QAA16152@usr04.primenet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 24 Sep 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] >Much of the existing "AntiSPAM" practice, while it has been truly >well intentioned, has resulted in a balkanization of email >connectivity, to the point that the Internet really no longer >meets its initial design goals, at least in as far as email is >concerned. Having only a single path between all servers for >any given source and destination email address is broken. I would submit that the "internet" is no longer functioning as it was intended, although it seems to have met it's design goals too well. The bulkanization of email, as you call it, strikes me as a reasonable situation in the face of people who now expect me to pay for the receipt and distribution of their advertising. What the average spammer does, is steal my resources and bandwidth for their own gain. An ISP who allows that activity is an accessory to the theft. Your credentials idea is more abominable than the spammers. It would, in fact, be one more trackable datum that would surely be abused by government pinheads with too much time on their hands. The single path notion sounds a lot like UUCP, which has, and still, works quite well. If the socialization of the internet becomes more of a reality, it may be a worthy alternative. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 17:34:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [209.98.143.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDE614D1E for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 17:34:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from spawn.nectar.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6331CBE08; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:35:30 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-Exmh-Isig-CompType: repl X-Exmh-Isig-Folder: mlist/freebsd/current X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-rsa.txt X-PGP-DSSfprint: AB2F 8D71 A4F4 467D 352E 8A41 5D79 22E4 71A2 8C73 X-PGP-DHfprint: 2D50 12E5 AB38 60BA AF4B 0778 7242 4460 1C32 F6B1 X-PGP-DH-DSSkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-dh-dss.txt From: Jacques Vidrine To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: chat@freebsd.org In-reply-to: <199909241637.JAA02838@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> References: <199909241637.JAA02838@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:35:30 -0500 Message-Id: <19990925003530.6331CBE08@gw.nectar.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [moving to -chat, since there is no fit here] On 24 September 1999 at 9:37, "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: [snip] > Perhaps you should try being in the business and having to deal with > the calls that happen when some luser signs up with you for the purpose > of spamming and admin's around the world start to flood your abuse@domain > address with the spammers junk. Perhaps you should have to make the > calls to get your IP space unblocked from certain entities due to the > actions of 1 bad luser. Well, I started the first ISP in New Orleans in 1994, and ran it through late 1998. I was VP Technology of Verio Midamerica for most of 1998 as well (that involved 10 ISP operations). I'm fairly familiar with the problem. :-) In fact, I've dealt with this very issue (filtering packets with destination TCP port 25 and a dial-up source address) before. So, I do speak from some experience. I am not advocating making it easy for spammers. The RBL has been a huge help, and the DUL looks potentially even more helpful. I just object to blocking legitimate traffic. I applaud your effort at monitoring this traffic from your dial-up users, to help you catch spammers early, but filtering should be something for which they opt-in. > If we have an AUP that states that all outbound smtp port 25 connections > shall be via our smarthost relay hosts we darn well have a right not > only to monitor that this is being done, we further more have a right > to inforce it if we so decide to. Of course you do have the ``right'', in a legal sense. An ``ISP'' also has the right to not deliver any traffic with a destination port of, say, 17, or 80 even. That doesn't make it a _good_ policy. To risk repeating myself, I believe that a company that doesn't deliver the legitimate (non-fraudulent) traffic of its customers is _not_ really an Internet Service Provider, but something else. ``A JSP perhaps?'' a friend and colleague of mine, with much more experience than me, once said :-) Analogously, a host can choose not to support, say, IP fragment reassembly, but then it isn't then a host (by RFC 1122). Yes, I know there is no RFC or other standards document that says what an ISP is and how one must perform. I am merely expressing my opinion on the matter. > If you want us to be a transpart IP transport you are asking us to > waive our AUP. We can, but your contract is going to have to be > specially written, and will have serous damage clauses attached to > it that will basically allow us to terminate your contract without > notice, yet collect the balance due on your contract. I couldn't quite parse this. [snip] > We don't, but your violating IETF standards by doing anything other > than smtp on port 25 of tcp. AFAIK, there is no IETF standard which disallows traffic other than SMTP to flow on port 25. That isn't to say that it is wise to use ports in a way that conflict with the IANA Assigned Numbers (rfc1700?). Such use would probably be a response to some temporary problem, or maybe an experimental protocol. But, the point is, that is not the concern of the ISP. It is the business of the customer, only. The ISP is simply to deliver the packets from A to B. You skipped the issue of customers that do not wish to push their SMTP traffic through your mail server (which is the more realistic scenario). What do you do with the conscientious business customer that has dial-up account with you, but due to company policy needs to push SMTP through their own mail server? > Violating IETF standards is not a good thing to do, and violating an > ISP's AUP is also not a good thing to do. Agreed. > The only real reason to run something other than smtp on port 25 > is to circumvent firewalls, How do you know? > which can lead to legal prosecussion. It might be my own firewall! > ISP's are _not_ common carriers, or at least the courts haven't made > up thier minds on this one. I don't suggest that they are common carriers (though I would guess that in time they will be). I suggest that an ISP is in the business of moving packets. Arbitrarily filtering packets conflicts with that business. > > Don't throw out the baby with the water! > > If the baby is causing us problems we darn well throw him right out! > And we will collect a big chunk of money from them in the process. Agreed, if the baby == spammer. I still disagree, though, in that I meant baby == legit customer. Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 19: 8:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F74715211 for ; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 19:08:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06215; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 20:08:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990924200154.047b51a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 24 Sep 1999 20:08:11 -0600 To: Jacques Vidrine , "Rodney W. Grimes" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990925003530.6331CBE08@gw.nectar.com> References: <199909241637.JAA02838@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <199909241637.JAA02838@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:35 PM 9/24/99 -0500, Jacques Vidrine wrote: >I am not advocating making it easy for spammers. The RBL has been a >huge help, and the DUL looks potentially even more helpful. I just >object to blocking legitimate traffic. The problem is, how can you tell what is legitimate? There's no good way, a priori, to distinguish spam from legitimate e-mail. It's only the pattern of mailing and/or the content that gives it away. Moreover, in order to detect an abusive pattern of mailing, you need to have logging -- which you get when you channel users' mail through your server. By doing so, you are not "blocking" mail. In fact, you're providing an additional service by queueing it for delivery -- possibly after the user has logged off. This is handy if the recipient's DNS or mail server is offline when the mail is first sent. See http://www.mercurycenter.com/svtech/news/indepth/docs/mc092399.htm for a good story about a small ISP and a spammer. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Sep 24 23:51:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gratis.grondar.za (gratis.grondar.za [196.7.18.133]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EF281509F; Fri, 24 Sep 1999 23:50:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Received: from grondar.za (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gratis.grondar.za (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA97143; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 08:50:11 +0200 (SAST) (envelope-from mark@grondar.za) Message-Id: <199909250650.IAA97143@gratis.grondar.za> To: Pat Lynch Cc: "Rodney W. Grimes" , Joe Abley , current@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 08:50:11 +0200 From: Mark Murray Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > DUL, while I'm not sure whether we should take this to -chat or not since > we are now getting into noise on the -current list, is also a good thing. > simply because noone on a dialup has reason to be sending mail directly to > me, they should be sending it through thier ISP's mail servers. There is a list called SPAM-L, where this is all on-topic. There is a lot of flamage, but the content is filterable. Askme if you want to get on... M -- Mark Murray Join the anti-SPAM movement: http://www.cauce.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 6:32:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12C59157AD; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 06:32:03 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.0.3] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11Uqzz-000BFd-00; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 13:32:19 +0100 Received: (from ben) by lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11Uqzw-0009BR-00; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 13:32:16 +0100 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 13:32:16 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: Pat Lynch Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups Message-ID: <19990925133215.A35268@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <199909241014.MAA91015@gratis.grondar.za> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [ CC list trimmed ] Pat Lynch wrote: > DUL, while I'm not sure whether we should take this to -chat or not since > we are now getting into noise on the -current list, is also a good thing. > simply because noone on a dialup has reason to be sending mail directly to > me, they should be sending it through thier ISP's mail servers. There are reasons not to use an ISP's smarthost. First, I have no idea how long my mail will stay there. Second, if my mail can't be delivered to the other end immediately, I'd rather be able to find out why by checking my logs. Third, my ISP's smarthost has occasionally been blacklisted by ORBS because it relays mail for its customers, some of whom are running open relays. (This is a completely ridiculous action on ORBS' part, IMO, but that's a discussion for somewhere else.) So far at least, I have never had any problems sending mail from my dialup (which has a static IP address -- I think static IP dialups are exempt from many dialup blocking lists), and I hope this will continue. -- Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 6:44:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A7F914C99; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 06:44:32 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA20703; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 09:44:28 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 09:44:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: Ben Smithurst Cc: current@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups In-Reply-To: <19990925133215.A35268@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yes, Dynamic dialups are the real problems. I have a static dialup, and its essentially mine to do with what I want. its not counted among my ISP's dialup pools. ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, Ben Smithurst wrote: > [ CC list trimmed ] > > Pat Lynch wrote: > > > DUL, while I'm not sure whether we should take this to -chat or not since > > we are now getting into noise on the -current list, is also a good thing. > > simply because noone on a dialup has reason to be sending mail directly to > > me, they should be sending it through thier ISP's mail servers. > > There are reasons not to use an ISP's smarthost. First, I have no idea > how long my mail will stay there. Second, if my mail can't be delivered > to the other end immediately, I'd rather be able to find out why by > checking my logs. Third, my ISP's smarthost has occasionally been > blacklisted by ORBS because it relays mail for its customers, some of > whom are running open relays. (This is a completely ridiculous action on > ORBS' part, IMO, but that's a discussion for somewhere else.) > > So far at least, I have never had any problems sending mail from my > dialup (which has a static IP address -- I think static IP dialups are > exempt from many dialup blocking lists), and I hope this will continue. > > -- > Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D > ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and > | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 9: 4:55 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28D7B14F32 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 09:04:50 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA07646; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 09:04:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199909251604.JAA07646@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990924200154.047b51a0@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Sep 24, 1999 08:08:11 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 09:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Cc: n@nectar.com (Jacques Vidrine), chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 07:35 PM 9/24/99 -0500, Jacques Vidrine wrote: > > >I am not advocating making it easy for spammers. The RBL has been a > >huge help, and the DUL looks potentially even more helpful. I just > >object to blocking legitimate traffic. Lets see here, the DUL effectively _blocks_ port 25 connections at the _destination_ point of the connection. All we are doing is moving the filter point from the receipent point to the closest we can get to the transmission point. Further more, since not everyone is running the DUL, we are insuring that the policy we want in place is being enforced to the best of our ability. Jacques said DUL okay, but me filtering at the source not okay. He is in self conflict. Please examine internal operations and diagnose :-) > > The problem is, how can you tell what is legitimate? There's no good > way, a priori, to distinguish spam from legitimate e-mail. It's only > the pattern of mailing and/or the content that gives it away. > > Moreover, in order to detect an abusive pattern of mailing, you need > to have logging -- which you get when you channel users' mail through > your server. By doing so, you are not "blocking" mail. In fact, you're > providing an additional service by queueing it for delivery -- > possibly after the user has logged off. This is handy if the recipient's > DNS or mail server is offline when the mail is first sent. Ahhhh.. so you might not mind so much if I had ipfw add 10251 divert ${MYSPECIALSMPTHANDLRE} any to any 25 out via lnc1 And actually _force_ your data to go past my logging routines. [Note that under 18 USC 2511 (h) ``It shall not be unlawful under this chapter--'' (ii) ``for a provider of electronic communication service to record the fact that a wire or electronic communication was intitated or completed in order to protect such provider, another provider furnishing service toward the completion of the wire or electronic communication, or a user of that service, from fradulent, unlawful or abusive use of such service.'' Infact in this litigative world it is prudent that I do such logging... and I could probably go cross reference the 47 USC code to find that we are egally required as a form of carrier to infact insure that we do keep such records. [We are a CLEC/IXC as defined in 47 USC 153] [Thanks go to Sean Eric Fagan for pointing me to a piece of code I had read long ago, that has been heavily amended since my last read that I am now just starting to untwist in my mind as to how it applies to us and other ISP/CLEC/IXC's, as due to amendments it is now applicable law, where as in the past it was not.] -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 9: 6:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14DF6150FC for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 09:06:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA74973; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 15:17:03 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 15:17:03 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: Terry Lambert Cc: David Schwartz , alk@pobox.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups Message-ID: <19990925151703.A74168@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <000201bf06d8$932f5ac0$021d85d1@youwant.to> <199909242319.QAA16152@usr04.primenet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199909242319.QAA16152@usr04.primenet.com>; from Terry Lambert on Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 11:19:09PM +0000 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 11:19:09PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > This doesn't work when you attempt to define an "everybody but X" > group. It doesn't matter if "X" is "whites" or "blacks" or > "people with Brazialian ancestry" or "people who don't have > static IP addresses, either because they are unavailable in > their region, or because they are too poor". Just as a side point -- don't assume that you can't be a dial up customer and not have a static IP address. Demon Internet, one of the biggest ISPs in the UK allocate static IP addresses to their customers, and have done since they started. It's very useful when your line drops while in the middle of downloading large files. Just redial and continue. You can't do this with dynamic IP addresses. Denying me the ability to send e-mail directly, and forcing me to use my ISP's mail relay is a very bad thing. For one thing it puts me in control of when delivery is attempted, and reattempted. For another it means that I'm not reliant on my ISP for anything except IP connectivity. Which, quite frankly, is all I want from an ISP. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 9:40: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gw.nectar.com (gw.nectar.com [209.98.143.44]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3855314CA6 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 09:40:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nectar@nectar.com) Received: from spawn.nectar.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gw.nectar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B93DBE08; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 11:41:39 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 X-Exmh-Isig-CompType: repl X-Exmh-Isig-Folder: mlist/freebsd/chat X-PGP-RSAfprint: 00 F9 E6 A2 C5 4D 0A 76 26 8B 8B 57 73 D0 DE EE X-PGP-RSAkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-rsa.txt X-PGP-DSSfprint: AB2F 8D71 A4F4 467D 352E 8A41 5D79 22E4 71A2 8C73 X-PGP-DHfprint: 2D50 12E5 AB38 60BA AF4B 0778 7242 4460 1C32 F6B1 X-PGP-DH-DSSkey: http://www.nectar.com/nectar-dh-dss.txt From: Jacques Vidrine To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <199909251604.JAA07646@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> References: <199909251604.JAA07646@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 11:41:39 -0500 Message-Id: <19990925164139.6B93DBE08@gw.nectar.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 25 September 1999 at 9:04, "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: > > At 07:35 PM 9/24/99 -0500, Jacques Vidrine wrote: > > > > >I am not advocating making it easy for spammers. The RBL has been a > > >huge help, and the DUL looks potentially even more helpful. I just > > >object to blocking legitimate traffic. > > Lets see here, the DUL effectively _blocks_ port 25 connections at > the _destination_ point of the connection. The DUL is an opt-in, however, and not ubiquitous. A corporate office may use the DUL, but make exceptions as necessary for its roaming users. > All we are doing is moving the filter point from the receipent point > to the closest we can get to the transmission point. Further more, > since not everyone is running the DUL, we are insuring that the > policy we want in place is being enforced to the best of our > ability. Jacques said DUL okay, but me filtering at the source not > okay. He is in self conflict. Please examine internal operations > and diagnose :-) DUL is opt-in. Filtering is draconian. They are quite different. Jacques Vidrine / n@nectar.com / nectar@FreeBSD.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 10:16:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A618814BB8; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 10:16:12 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA07859; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 10:12:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199909251712.KAA07859@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups In-Reply-To: from Pat Lynch at "Sep 25, 1999 09:44:28 am" To: lynch@bsdunix.net (Pat Lynch) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 10:12:49 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ben@scientia.demon.co.uk (Ben Smithurst), current@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > yes, Dynamic dialups are the real problems. I have a static dialup, and > its essentially mine to do with what I want. its not counted among my > ISP's dialup pools. And if you signed the additional clauses to our AUP that basically places you at legal and financial risk for violation of the other parts of the AUP, with special respect to spamming, your static IP would be excluded from our filter. We just don't like to have to do this for an account that is anything less than a DS-1 loop, though it may be fractional DS-1. We really hate to do it for any dial up services, we will leave that business to the IP's who provide no real service. -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 10:27:22 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED76B14CEC for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 10:27:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA07919; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 10:27:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199909251727.KAA07919@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 In-Reply-To: <19990925164139.6B93DBE08@gw.nectar.com> from Jacques Vidrine at "Sep 25, 1999 11:41:39 am" To: n@nectar.com (Jacques Vidrine) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 10:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > On 25 September 1999 at 9:04, "Rodney W. Grimes" wrote: > > > At 07:35 PM 9/24/99 -0500, Jacques Vidrine wrote: > > > > > > >I am not advocating making it easy for spammers. The RBL has been a > > > >huge help, and the DUL looks potentially even more helpful. I just > > > >object to blocking legitimate traffic. > > > > Lets see here, the DUL effectively _blocks_ port 25 connections at > > the _destination_ point of the connection. > > The DUL is an opt-in, however, and not ubiquitous. A corporate > office may use the DUL, but make exceptions as necessary for its roaming > users. DUL is opt-in by the owner of the IP space. Not by the users of the IP addresses. Our filtering is opt-in by the owner of the IP space, not by the users. We are not ubiquitious. Functionaly what we do and what the DUL does for us is the same logically, they simply different in the physical location that the packet gets killed. A corporate office can not use the DUL, they do not own the IP space, thus thier request to the DUL will be rejected, unless thier ISP okays it. > > > All we are doing is moving the filter point from the receipent point > > to the closest we can get to the transmission point. Further more, > > since not everyone is running the DUL, we are insuring that the > > policy we want in place is being enforced to the best of our > > ability. Jacques said DUL okay, but me filtering at the source not > > okay. He is in self conflict. Please examine internal operations > > and diagnose :-) > > DUL is opt-in. Filtering is draconian. They are quite different. DUL is opt-in by the owner of the ISP, the filtering is no more draconian than listing our IP dialup pools on the DUL. See above. -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 11:22: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0529B14DC9; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 11:22:06 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA39003; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 14:25:00 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199909251825.OAA39003@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups In-Reply-To: <19990925151703.A74168@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> from Nik Clayton at "Sep 25, 1999 03:17:03 pm" To: nik@FreeBSD.ORG (Nik Clayton) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 14:24:59 -0400 (EDT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com (Terry Lambert), davids@webmaster.com (David Schwartz), alk@pobox.com, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton wrote, > On Fri, Sep 24, 1999 at 11:19:09PM +0000, Terry Lambert wrote: > > This doesn't work when you attempt to define an "everybody but X" > > group. It doesn't matter if "X" is "whites" or "blacks" or > > "people with Brazialian ancestry" or "people who don't have > > static IP addresses, either because they are unavailable in > > their region, or because they are too poor". > > Just as a side point -- don't assume that you can't be a dial up customer > and not have a static IP address. Demon Internet, one of the biggest ISPs > in the UK allocate static IP addresses to their customers, and have done > since they started. I think this brings up a good point people seem to forget from time to time. Even though the Big Boys are muscling the Little Guys out of business in a lot of places, most anywhere (in the US at least), you still do have a choice as to which ISP you sign up with. You can balance what services, AUP, and prices exist at one versus another and chose the one that best fits your needs and desires. Also, remember different users have different needs and desires[0], so the fact that an ISP's methods and rules are not what _you_ want, does not necessarily mean they are "wrong." And to completely break the thread another way, what about reverse-lookup as a requirement for mail to be accepted? At work, we have blocks of addresses that do not reverse-lookup from the outside, but they sure are static addresses assigned to our company. How are the arguments different between blocking a dynamic, dial-in IP addresses, versus blocking ones that do not reverse-lookup[1]? In either case, there is no a priori reason to assume that any mail from the address is SPAM, yet no one seems to think that a blanket rule to block such machines is unfair. We just had to deal with the fact all mail from our domain had to relay from a machine on the edge with reverse-lookup to ROW. [0] FreeBSD and most other UNIX-type hosts might not want to have to relay through the ISP's mailhosts, but for a typical M$ box or Mac, a relay host is _required._ An ISP has every right to shape their services to the market of their choice... even if it is bad for kids like us. :( [1] Not only email, but often times ftp and other services can be denied when an address does not reverse-lookup. Understandable when trying to d/l export-restricted executables, but an annoyance at other times. -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 12:39:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AD414DA0 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 12:39:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA13160; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 13:39:27 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990925133024.044fb290@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 13:31:25 -0600 To: "Rodney W. Grimes" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) Cc: n@nectar.com (Jacques Vidrine), chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <199909251604.JAA07646@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19990924200154.047b51a0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 09:04 AM 9/25/99 -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >Ahhhh.. so you might not mind so much if I had >ipfw add 10251 divert ${MYSPECIALSMPTHANDLRE} any to any 25 out via lnc1 Interesting idea. What would you put into MYSPECIALSMTPHANDLER? --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 12:59:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B231414BEB for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 12:59:34 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08225; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 12:59:21 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199909251959.MAA08225@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990925133024.044fb290@localhost> from Brett Glass at "Sep 25, 1999 01:31:25 pm" To: brett@lariat.org (Brett Glass) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 12:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Cc: n@nectar.com (Jacques Vidrine), chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > At 09:04 AM 9/25/99 -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > >Ahhhh.. so you might not mind so much if I had > >ipfw add 10251 divert ${MYSPECIALSMPTHANDLRE} any to any 25 out via lnc1 > > Interesting idea. What would you put into MYSPECIALSMTPHANDLER? The port number of the process that hands your data off to the internal smarthost by some means. On the otherside of that port would probably be a sockpair tcp stream between the firewall and the smarthost that spoke a wrapping protocol around smtp that would inject your smtp session into sendmail properly. (Ie, there is the problem that you expect to be talking to a specific destination IP, or I would just use a redirect with no wrapping). The above ipfw rule is only the very beginning of what it would take to make this a functional mechanism. It is however based upon reality in the world of using web caches (which I don't see anyone objecting to) at ISP's to increase web access speed. Now why is it that folks are so opposed to what we are doing with port 25 traffic, yet they think it is just a super thing to do with port 80 traffic. Go figure... -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 14:14:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E90BD15335; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 14:14:30 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22899; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:14:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Ben Smithurst , current@FreeBSD.ORG, chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups In-Reply-To: <199909251712.KAA07859@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, I should clarify, my dialup is actually dedicated. not dialup-when-I-need-it. don;t know if this makes a diofference but I pay ALOT of money for the use of my own guaranteed modem 24/7. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > yes, Dynamic dialups are the real problems. I have a static dialup, and > > its essentially mine to do with what I want. its not counted among my > > ISP's dialup pools. > > And if you signed the additional clauses to our AUP that basically places > you at legal and financial risk for violation of the other parts of the > AUP, with special respect to spamming, your static IP would be excluded > from our filter. We just don't like to have to do this for an account > that is anything less than a DS-1 loop, though it may be fractional DS-1. > > We really hate to do it for any dial up services, we will leave that > business to the IP's who provide no real service. > > -- > Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 14:22: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8698614CCA for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 14:22:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22980; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:21:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:21:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Brett Glass , Jacques Vidrine , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) In-Reply-To: <199909251959.MAA08225@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org yah, thats what I want to know. personall my feeling is that people who abused the way things were before made it bad for those who haven't done anything wrong. thats life. just like in school when the teacher punsihes a whole class because she didn;t catch the perpetrator orf the "crime". Ultimately those who have not done anything wrong are going to push to make laws against those who did do something wrong (obviously this has happened in some areas of California?). I've seen mail servers been taken down and crippled by spammers. Its not just an annoyance anymore. personally I'm kindof a anti-spam crusader, I don;t want it keep it away, and I can block whatever I want from my machines. granted my machines are mine personally and not those of an ISP. And I work at a school where all security/connectivity policy is controlled by me on the particular subnet I'm on, and I don;t do anythign heavy handed. I haven;t had a problem with RBL/DUL there yet. Our Computer Center however has been blocked by ORBS once though. -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > At 09:04 AM 9/25/99 -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > > >Ahhhh.. so you might not mind so much if I had > > >ipfw add 10251 divert ${MYSPECIALSMPTHANDLRE} any to any 25 out via lnc1 > > > > Interesting idea. What would you put into MYSPECIALSMTPHANDLER? > > The port number of the process that hands your data off to the internal > smarthost by some means. On the otherside of that port would probably be > a sockpair tcp stream between the firewall and the smarthost that spoke > a wrapping protocol around smtp that would inject your smtp session into > sendmail properly. (Ie, there is the problem that you expect to be talking > to a specific destination IP, or I would just use a redirect with no wrapping). > > The above ipfw rule is only the very beginning of what it would take to > make this a functional mechanism. It is however based upon reality in > the world of using web caches (which I don't see anyone objecting to) > at ISP's to increase web access speed. > > Now why is it that folks are so opposed to what we are doing with port 25 > traffic, yet they think it is just a super thing to do with port 80 traffic. > Go figure... > > -- > Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 14:44:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE2331503C for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 14:44:08 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA08452; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 14:43:33 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199909252143.OAA08452@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups In-Reply-To: from Pat Lynch at "Sep 25, 1999 05:14:07 pm" To: lynch@bsdunix.net (Pat Lynch) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 14:43:33 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ben@scientia.demon.co.uk (Ben Smithurst), chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org [Freebsd-current dropped from CC: list, now only on -chat] > Actually, I should clarify, my dialup is actually dedicated. not > dialup-when-I-need-it. don;t know if this makes a diofference but I pay > ALOT of money for the use of my own guaranteed modem 24/7. -Pat It could make a lot of difference, you would trip the logging fact of the filter, which would prompt us to call you and ask why you where trying to go around our AUP stated policy of outbound email is handled by the smarthost. You'd state your claim that you want to run your own smarthost. We'd go on about why that is such a bad idea, and how much better your life would be using ours, and why we have that in the AUP to prevent spamming, etc, etc. If you pressured and/or put your foot down we would hand you a very ownourous looking amendment to your contract to sign and your IP would get added to the ${SMARTHOSTS} list. Though for what is probably a <$100.00 account we might just tell you to take a hike and get another ISP, or get what you really want which is simply an Internet Provider. If your paying much more than a $100 a month for 24x7 dialup you should already be looking for another provider already :-) -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 15:43:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C74F159E0 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 15:43:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.0.3] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11UzK6-000Brb-00; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:25:39 +0100 Received: (from ben) by lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11UzK5-0000OP-00; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:25:37 +0100 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:25:37 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) Message-ID: <19990925222536.A1470@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <4.2.0.58.19990925133024.044fb290@localhost> <199909251959.MAA08225@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199909251959.MAA08225@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > It is however based upon reality in the world of using web caches > (which I don't see anyone objecting to) at ISP's to increase web > access speed. I have no objection to web caches, no. I *do* have an objection to having all traffic out of my machine *forced* to go through the ISP's web cache. If I want to use it, I know how to configure my software to use it (and I do use it), I don't need the ISP doing that for me. I suppose you configure your web servers to deny all requests from dial up hosts. If not, why not? After all, under your policy all users should be using their ISP's web cache. Going further away from SMTP still, do you allow *any* traffic from remote dial up hosts into your network? Do you allow any traffic from your dial up hosts out of your network? If so, I'd like to know why you think SMTP and HTTP deserve special treatment, while the services you don't filter don't apparently deserve this treatment. -- Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 16: 1:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52C1D14C1F for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:01:25 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14431; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:01:13 -0600 (MDT) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19990925170012.047f24a0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:01:09 -0600 To: Ben Smithurst , "Rodney W. Grimes" From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: <19990925222536.A1470@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <199909251959.MAA08225@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> <4.2.0.58.19990925133024.044fb290@localhost> <199909251959.MAA08225@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:25 PM 9/25/99 +0100, Ben Smithurst wrote: >Going further away from SMTP still, do you allow *any* traffic from >remote dial up hosts into your network? Do you allow any traffic from >your dial up hosts out of your network? If so, I'd like to know why you >think SMTP and HTTP deserve special treatment, In a word: spam. At least in the case of SMTP. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 16:18:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF97C14C1F for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:18:29 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA18141; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 19:16:58 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 19:16:58 -0400 (EDT) From: jack To: Gary Palmer Cc: Jacques Vidrine , "Rodney W. Grimes" , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) In-Reply-To: <58478.938294793@noop.colo.erols.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Gary Palmer wrote: > It doesn't, but direct-inject and relay-rape spam is a major problem. > How do you propose that large ISPs combat abuse of their dialups to > create this problem? Forcing the spam to go through their own SMTP > servers, where it can be logged, tracked, rate limited and noticed > much earlier is a BIG step in the right direction. UU Net is doing > this for all of their resold dialups because of the major problems > they had. This is the second time I've heard that UUnet is blocking port 25 from their dialups. The number of connections from *.da.uu.net that I continue to reject make me think it is an urban legand. :( -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 16:36: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F24E314E20 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:35:58 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA08631; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:35:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199909252335.QAA08631@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) In-Reply-To: <19990925222536.A1470@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> from Ben Smithurst at "Sep 25, 1999 10:25:37 pm" To: ben@scientia.demon.co.uk (Ben Smithurst) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:35:50 -0700 (PDT) Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > > It is however based upon reality in the world of using web caches > > (which I don't see anyone objecting to) at ISP's to increase web > > access speed. > > I have no objection to web caches, no. I *do* have an objection to > having all traffic out of my machine *forced* to go through the ISP's > web cache. If I want to use it, I know how to configure my software to > use it (and I do use it), I don't need the ISP doing that for me. They already are, and you don't even know it. It may be at a major provider near you soon too. These are _NOT_ proxy boxes, these are the new generation of ``no change needed to client boxes'' web caches. > > I suppose you configure your web servers to deny all requests from dial > up hosts. If not, why not? After all, under your policy all users should > be using their ISP's web cache. You've twisted it a bit far. Nothing in our policy says what another ISP's users can do, only what our customers can do. > Going further away from SMTP still, do you allow *any* traffic from > remote dial up hosts into your network? Yes. > Do you allow any traffic from your dial up hosts out of your network? Some... not all... but some... we do monitor _all_ of it though. Most of it simply gets counted in packets and bytes, other parts of it get source/dest logged as well. [I'm being specifically quite on this, as it is meaningless to discuss what we do and do not allow to occur, it after all is our business.] > If so, I'd like to know why you think SMTP and HTTP deserve special > treatment, while the services you don't filter don't apparently deserve > this treatment. SMTP deserves very special attention due to the fact that the number 1 complaint of users of the internet is *SPAM*. SPAM is propogated via smtp. Do I need to say more? I can if I do. HTTP deserves special treatment as it consumes 76% of our upstream channel. Our ability to reduce the cost of rendering service is good common business practice. If you want to continue to pay $15/month for a service I can cost effeciency reduce to $8.00/month go right ahead, meanwhile I'll be chomping away at your heals. Now, since everyone knows about how to do this it won't really work that way, but it is the major force that makes HTTP _special_, and it is occuring in major ways at many ISP's, weither the customer knows it or not. You can add up ALL the other protocols and they don't even make a dent compared to HTTP traffic. -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 16:38:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C51F14A06 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:38:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA08637; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:37:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199909252337.QAA08637@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) In-Reply-To: from jack at "Sep 25, 1999 07:16:58 pm" To: jack@germanium.xtalwind.net (jack) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Cc: gjp@in-addr.com (Gary Palmer), n@nectar.com (Jacques Vidrine), chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Today Gary Palmer wrote: > > > It doesn't, but direct-inject and relay-rape spam is a major problem. > > How do you propose that large ISPs combat abuse of their dialups to > > create this problem? Forcing the spam to go through their own SMTP > > servers, where it can be logged, tracked, rate limited and noticed > > much earlier is a BIG step in the right direction. UU Net is doing > > this for all of their resold dialups because of the major problems ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > they had. > > This is the second time I've heard that UUnet is blocking port 25 > from their dialups. The number of connections from *.da.uu.net > that I continue to reject make me think it is an urban legand. :( Keyword is ``resold'', it wont be from *.uu.net. -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 16:41:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bytor.rush.net (bytor.rush.net [209.45.245.145]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F285C14E20 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:41:46 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from lynch@bsdunix.net) Received: from localhost (lynch@localhost) by bytor.rush.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA23823; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 19:41:40 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 19:41:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Pat Lynch X-Sender: lynch@bytor.rush.net To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Ben Smithurst , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups In-Reply-To: <199909252143.OAA08452@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org actually in our area in NJ, its the best you can do, so ISP's gouge us for static dedicated dialups, its still less than ISDN (due to surcharges) and less than a frame relay, its close to 200 a month. it sucks, but we deal, and when I move I'll have dsl. I'll deliberately move into an area with dsl =) -Pat ___________________________________________________________________________ Pat Lynch lynch@rush.net lynch@bsdunix.net Systems Administrator Rush Networking ___________________________________________________________________________ On Sat, 25 Sep 1999, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > [Freebsd-current dropped from CC: list, now only on -chat] > > > Actually, I should clarify, my dialup is actually dedicated. not > > dialup-when-I-need-it. don;t know if this makes a diofference but I pay > > ALOT of money for the use of my own guaranteed modem 24/7. -Pat > > It could make a lot of difference, you would trip the logging > fact of the filter, which would prompt us to call you and ask why > you where trying to go around our AUP stated policy of outbound > email is handled by the smarthost. You'd state your claim > that you want to run your own smarthost. We'd go on about why that > is such a bad idea, and how much better your life would be using ours, > and why we have that in the AUP to prevent spamming, etc, etc. > If you pressured and/or put your foot down we would hand you a very > ownourous looking amendment to your contract to sign and your IP would > get added to the ${SMARTHOSTS} list. > > Though for what is probably a <$100.00 account we might just tell you > to take a hike and get another ISP, or get what you really want which > is simply an Internet Provider. If your paying much more than a $100 a > month for 24x7 dialup you should already be looking for another provider > already :-) > > > -- > Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 16:52:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (GndRsh.dnsmgr.net [198.145.92.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C27CE14D01 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:52:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net) Received: (from freebsd@localhost) by gndrsh.dnsmgr.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA08660; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:52:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from freebsd) From: "Rodney W. Grimes" Message-Id: <199909252352.QAA08660@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups In-Reply-To: from Pat Lynch at "Sep 25, 1999 07:41:39 pm" To: lynch@bsdunix.net (Pat Lynch) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 16:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Cc: ben@scientia.demon.co.uk (Ben Smithurst), chat@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > actually in our area in NJ, its the best you can do, so ISP's gouge us for > static dedicated dialups, its still less than ISDN (due to surcharges) and > less than a frame relay, its close to 200 a month. it sucks, but we deal, > and when I move I'll have dsl. I'll deliberately move into an area with > dsl =) Hummmm.. let me guess your incumbent telco carrier is Bell Atlantic, they have started DSL roll out, but say ``your area is not reachable''. If so, ask them ``when will service be avaliable'', if they say never, call your PUC and explain to them that Bell Atlantic has denied you a tarrifed service and you want to know what can be done about it. -- Rod Grimes - KD7CAX - (RWG25) rgrimes@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 17: 4:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62B9914E2A for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:03:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: (from nik@localhost) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA26745; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:12:12 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from nik) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 22:12:12 +0100 From: Nik Clayton To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Brett Glass , Jacques Vidrine , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) Message-ID: <19990925221212.A25964@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> References: <4.2.0.58.19990925133024.044fb290@localhost> <199909251959.MAA08225@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i In-Reply-To: <199909251959.MAA08225@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net>; from Rodney W. Grimes on Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 12:59:21PM -0700 Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Sep 25, 1999 at 12:59:21PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > Now why is it that folks are so opposed to what we are doing with port 25 > traffic, yet they think it is just a super thing to do with port 80 traffic. > Go figure... For the record, not everyone thinks it's a great thing to do with port 80 traffic either. N -- [intentional self-reference] can be easily accommodated using a blessed, non-self-referential dummy head-node whose own object destructor severs the links. -- Tom Christiansen in <375143b5@cs.colorado.edu> To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 17:42:18 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 97EA014A17 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:42:11 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 21059 invoked from network); 26 Sep 1999 00:42:10 -0000 Received: from userar23.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.136.182) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 26 Sep 1999 00:42:10 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id BAA03311 for chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 01:33:23 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 01:33:23 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: [slightly OT] Win 95 upgrade CD & bochs Message-ID: <19990926013323.F2759@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK, this is a Windows question but since it's related to getting bochs up and running it's FreeBSD related as well. Does anyone know how Win95 determines whether you have a valid OS installed before it will "upgrade" to 95? I've got bochs installed an now am trying to install 95 but my CD is and upgrade version and it keeps bombing out because it can't find an OS that it valid to "upgrade" from on the hard disk. Unfortunately I gave away my DOS 6.22 floppies so I can't put that on. I've copied MSDOS.DOS, IO.DOS, COMMAND.DOS from my real C: (renaming them to *.SYS) and I've run FDISK /MBR, but still it complains. How do I get around it? Anyone know? -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 17:47:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.ftf.dk (mail.ftf.net [129.142.64.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B1D7314C2B for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:47:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from regnauld@ftf.net) Received: from ns.int.ftf.net (fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged)) by mail.ftf.dk (8.9.3/8.9.3/gw-ftf-1.2) with ESMTP id CAA00230; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 02:46:32 +0200 (CEST) X-Authentication-Warning: mail.ftf.dk: Host fw2.ftf.dk [192.168.1.2] (may be forged) claimed to be ns.int.ftf.net Received: (from regnauld@localhost) by ns.int.ftf.net (8.9.2/8.9.3) id CAA20844; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 02:53:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <19990926025315.01195@ns.int.ftf.net> Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 02:53:15 +0200 From: Phil Regnauld To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [slightly OT] Win 95 upgrade CD & bochs References: <19990926013323.F2759@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.88e In-Reply-To: <19990926013323.F2759@marder-1>; from Mark Ovens on Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 01:33:23AM +0100 X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.1-RELEASE i386 Organization: FTFnet Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Mark Ovens writes: > OK, this is a Windows question but since it's related to getting > bochs up and running it's FreeBSD related as well. Side question: did you get FreeBSD running under Bochs ? -- Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 17:52:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id ADC4114D08 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:52:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 20275 invoked from network); 26 Sep 1999 00:52:27 -0000 Received: from userar23.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.136.182) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 26 Sep 1999 00:52:27 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id BAA03412; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 01:43:41 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 01:43:40 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Phil Regnauld Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: [slightly OT] Win 95 upgrade CD & bochs Message-ID: <19990926014340.A3384@marder-1> References: <19990926013323.F2759@marder-1> <19990926025315.01195@ns.int.ftf.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19990926025315.01195@ns.int.ftf.net> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 02:53:15AM +0200, Phil Regnauld wrote: > Mark Ovens writes: > > OK, this is a Windows question but since it's related to getting > > bochs up and running it's FreeBSD related as well. > > Side question: did you get FreeBSD running under Bochs ? > I've not tried. Hmm, FreeBSD running under bochs running under FreeBSD. A recursive OS? > -- > Division by Zero error -- multiplying by zero to recover. -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 17:53: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-10.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E8E914D08 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 17:53:01 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marc@oldserver.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.105.241] (helo=mistress) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.02 #1) id 11V2Ym-0001L4-00; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 00:53:01 +0000 Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 02:50:35 +0200 (CEST) From: Marc Schneiders To: Mark Ovens Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [slightly OT] Win 95 upgrade CD & bochs In-Reply-To: <19990926013323.F2759@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 26 Sep 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > OK, this is a Windows question but since it's related to getting > bochs up and running it's FreeBSD related as well. > > Does anyone know how Win95 determines whether you have a valid OS > installed before it will "upgrade" to 95? > > I've got bochs installed an now am trying to install 95 but my CD > is and upgrade version and it keeps bombing out because it can't > find an OS that it valid to "upgrade" from on the hard disk. > > Unfortunately I gave away my DOS 6.22 floppies so I can't put that > on. > > I've copied MSDOS.DOS, IO.DOS, COMMAND.DOS from my real C: (renaming > them to *.SYS) and I've run FDISK /MBR, but still it complains. > > How do I get around it? Anyone know? You need the first floppy of Windows 3.1 (perhaps 3.0 will also do) not DOS and insert that when prompted. You do *not* have to install it first. There are also CD's (in fact most I've seen are) full version, not upgrade. What you might have is the very first version of 95. It is the buggiest..., but it installs and runs on 4MB. Maybe try to find a newer CD (with copyright date 1996 on it) or Windows98 (too heavy on RAM)?? Marc To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 18: 1:24 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6562514D08 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 18:01:16 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 20422 invoked from network); 26 Sep 1999 01:01:15 -0000 Received: from userar23.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.136.182) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 26 Sep 1999 01:01:15 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.2/8.8.8) id BAA03482; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 01:52:29 +0100 (BST) (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 01:52:29 +0100 From: Mark Ovens To: Marc Schneiders Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: [slightly OT] Win 95 upgrade CD & bochs Message-ID: <19990926015229.B3384@marder-1> References: <19990926013323.F2759@marder-1> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Sep 26, 1999 at 02:50:35AM +0200, Marc Schneiders wrote: > On Sun, 26 Sep 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > > > OK, this is a Windows question but since it's related to getting > > bochs up and running it's FreeBSD related as well. > > > > Does anyone know how Win95 determines whether you have a valid OS > > installed before it will "upgrade" to 95? > > > > I've got bochs installed an now am trying to install 95 but my CD > > is and upgrade version and it keeps bombing out because it can't > > find an OS that it valid to "upgrade" from on the hard disk. > > > > Unfortunately I gave away my DOS 6.22 floppies so I can't put that > > on. > > > > I've copied MSDOS.DOS, IO.DOS, COMMAND.DOS from my real C: (renaming > > them to *.SYS) and I've run FDISK /MBR, but still it complains. > > > > How do I get around it? Anyone know? > > You need the first floppy of Windows 3.1 (perhaps 3.0 will also do) not > DOS and insert that when prompted. I realize that you do not need to install it, as you say the first disk will suffice. The problem is that I gave my DOS 6.22 and Win3.1 floppies away without keeping copies (never thought I'd need them. I'm looking for a workround. Curiously my *real* drive C: has a WinNT boot sector and when I trashed the C: drive (don't ask) this same CD re-installed without a problem yet NT4 post-dates 95. I *think* that it looks for keywords in the MBR ("DOS", "WIN" etc.) > You do *not* have to install it first. > There are also CD's (in fact most I've seen are) full version, not > upgrade. What you might have is the very first version of 95. It is > the buggiest..., but it installs and runs on 4MB. Maybe try to find a > newer CD (with copyright date 1996 on it) or Windows98 (too heavy on RAM)?? > Unfortunately mine is the upgrade version and most other people I've asked also have the upgrade CD. > Marc > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- STATE-OF-THE-ART: Any computer you can't afford. OBSOLETE: Any computer you own. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 18:54:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from poboxer.pobox.com (ferg5200-1-8.cpinternet.com [208.149.16.8]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CD7B14EBC for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 18:54:23 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from alk@poboxer.pobox.com) Received: (from alk@localhost) by poboxer.pobox.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) id UAA50415; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 20:54:03 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from alk) From: Anthony Kimball MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 25 Sep 1999 20:54:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Face: \h9Jg:Cuivl4S*UP-)gO.6O=T]]@ncM*tn4zG);)lk#4|lqEx=*talx?.Gk,dMQU2)ptPC17cpBzm(l'M|H8BUF1&]dDCxZ.c~Wy6-j,^V1E(NtX$FpkkdnJixsJHE95JlhO 5\M3jh'YiO7KPCn0~W`Ro44_TB@&JuuqRqgPL'0/{):7rU-%.*@/>q?1&Ed Reply-To: alk@pobox.com To: cjclark@home.com Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups References: <19990925151703.A74168@catkin.nothing-going-on.org> <199909251825.OAA39003@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> X-Mailer: VM 6.43 under 20.4 "Emerald" XEmacs Lucid Message-ID: <14317.30075.780224.678708@avalon.east> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoth Crist J. Clark on Sat, 25 September: : How are : the arguments different between blocking a dynamic, dial-in IP : addresses, versus blocking ones that do not reverse-lookup[1]? Not much, practically. : In : either case, there is no a priori reason to assume that any mail from : the address is SPAM, yet no one seems to think that a blanket rule to : block such machines is unfair. I sure do! And foolish. Sure, antagonize the majority of the users of the network. Inviting legislation is what that is. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Sep 25 19:43:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AD0D14BD4 for ; Sat, 25 Sep 1999 19:43:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.0.3] ident=exim) by scientia.demon.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11V3cP-000CG8-00; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 03:00:49 +0100 Received: (from ben) by lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk (Exim 3.032 #1) id 11V3cO-0000fL-00; Sun, 26 Sep 1999 03:00:48 +0100 Date: Sun, 26 Sep 1999 03:00:48 +0100 From: Ben Smithurst To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Filtering port 25 (was Re: On hub.freebsd.org refusing to talk to dialups) Message-ID: <19990926030048.A2441@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <19990925222536.A1470@lithium.scientia.demon.co.uk> <199909252335.QAA08631@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.6i In-Reply-To: <199909252335.QAA08631@gndrsh.dnsmgr.net> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Rodney W. Grimes wrote: >> I have no objection to web caches, no. I *do* have an objection to >> having all traffic out of my machine *forced* to go through the ISP's >> web cache. If I want to use it, I know how to configure my software to >> use it (and I do use it), I don't need the ISP doing that for me. > > They already are, and you don't even know it. It may be at a major > provider near you soon too. I'm pretty sure it won't be at my ISP. >> I suppose you configure your web servers to deny all requests from dial >> up hosts. If not, why not? After all, under your policy all users should >> be using their ISP's web cache. > > You've twisted it a bit far. Nothing in our policy says what another ISP's > users can do, only what our customers can do. So why do you stop other ISP's dialup users from sending mail direct to your incoming SMTP servers? > SMTP deserves very special attention due to the fact that the number 1 > complaint of users of the internet is *SPAM*. SPAM is propogated via > smtp. Do I need to say more? I can if I do. What about NNTP? I think quite a bit of Usenet spam (and rogue cancels, and other crap on Usenet) are injected through open news servers, not necessarily those of the abuser's ISP. This would cause problems if customers wanted to use an external news service like Giganews or Altopia though, so I guess it's not as simple as "block all NNTP to remote sites". -- Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message