From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 17 0: 1:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C9AD15024 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 00:01:27 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: from ska.bsn (beefcake.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.12]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id RAA16137 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 17:04:26 +1000 Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA35294 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 16:57:09 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from andy) Message-Id: <199910170657.QAA35294@ska.bsn> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 16:57:09 +1000 (EST) From: atrn@zeta.org.au Subject: Re: keyboards To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Chuck Robey wrote: > only point on this hugely blown up thing where individual dots could be > discerned was in the area where a slightly off-white was being produced by > dithering; over than that, it could *easily* be taken for a photograph, > with only continuous shading. Great. Various people in labs around the world will be very happy to hear that. The sales critters would be even happier (but luckily I don't know any of them :) > I want to know which Canon model *ISN'T* one of those Windows things with > the brains in the driver only ... AFAIK there's none where the printer has sufficient "brains" to achieve the results you saw. But don't trust me on this as I haven't tried anything myself. The Windows driver performs the work of producing the color data for the printer and this step is complex, requiring knowledge of the physical structure of the head, the properties of the media and ink, etc... (humidity and the water content of the media also play a role). All those settings available in the print dialogue actually make a real difference. The cost of the printers is kept down by not having enough CPU or memory to perform the task. The situation is (only) a little different than the WinModems in that the printers can operate without the proprietary driver although their functions are usually limited, e.g., relative poor color output or black & white only - enough of the command set is available to implement these or the printer emulates something that people know about. I'd look in one of the printer-related newsgroups or comp.lang.postscript to find out which model is working the best. The tasks of generating high quality, photo-like, output is very important these days and many of the techniques are patented or kept as trade secrets. The rise of digital photography has made this a very competitive area. All the manufacturers are producing great printers. As long as you use the recommended expensive media with the new-ish models that use six or seven colors you should be able to get good output (from Windows [sigh]). > I'm looking for a Canon model that's well supported by one of the > ghostscript drivers. To the best of my knowledge there are none that are driven by Ghostscript that can achieve the photo quality provided by the Windows driver. The necessary information simply isn't available. Even if it were the production of a suitable driver may infringe patents or take a long time to get right. Printing is more difficult than many people appreciate. When I first encountered it (having worked in the TV graphics field) I was amazed at the problems that need to be solved to get good output (and luckily didn't have to work on them - I'm more into networking and operating systems than the fine details of the printing process). I wish it weren't so. As I have no Windows machines I can't use my employer's products to their best potential and haven't bothered getting any. I use an old Toshiba LaserJet clone for my printing needs (mainly because it was free). And to keep this on topic... Don't get keycaps or anything, get a real keyboard! I use original PC/AT keyboards - control key in the right place, proper space bar, function keys on the left, big enter key, weighs a ton so it doesn't move and noisy as hell to annoy anyone else nearby. I can type about 20% faster on them than the generic rubbish keyboards you get with machines these days. The only problem with it is that it doesn't reset correctly at boot time with FreeBSD - it spits out '-''s until I hit return. I boot so infrequently* I haven't bothered to figure out why (the flags mentioned in the man pages didn't seem to do anything) BTW the Linux box at work with a similar keyboard operates correctly so I guess I should swap the keyboards to see if it's something to do with the one I've got at home. * The power supply in my main machine died the other day which forced me to, (a) replace it (bloody power switch position forced me to take the entire motherboard out, goddam PC's) and, (b) boot for the first time in three months (okay, so I haven't "install world"'d for 3.3 yet). -- Chuck Berry lied about the promised land To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 17 1:49: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3218214FBB for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 01:49:00 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from kris@airnet.net) Received: from airnet.net (tc14-216-180-35-100.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.35.100] (may be forged)) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.1a/8.9.0) with ESMTP id DAA03283; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 03:48:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <38098D39.25692776@airnet.net> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 03:47:53 -0500 From: Kris Kirby Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: atrn@zeta.org.au Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: keyboards References: <199910170657.QAA35294@ska.bsn> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > make a real difference. The cost of the printers is kept down by not > having enough CPU or memory to perform the task. Tell me about it. I don't know what my inkjet has for a processor, but it's only got 512K of RAM. I've got (insert anything here) with more RAM! Ghostscript doesn't take that long on my P166 print-server though. It's a shame that I can't use the printer's ink-saving options because I don't use Windows. Oh well. Never stopped me before ;-). -- Kris Kirby ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 17 4:10:45 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailman.zeta.org.au (mailman.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.16]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67DC21512F for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 04:10:36 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from atrn@zeta.org.au) Received: from ska.bsn (beefcake.zeta.org.au [203.26.10.12]) by mailman.zeta.org.au (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id VAA24048 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:13:34 +1000 Received: (from andy@localhost) by ska.bsn (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA36211 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:25:25 +1000 (EST) (envelope-from andy) Message-Id: <199910171125.VAA36211@ska.bsn> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:25:25 +1000 (EST) From: atrn@zeta.org.au Subject: Re: printers (was Re: keyboards) To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <199910170023.TAA16286@nospam.hiwaay.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > As a result, I don't buy these products. Even for a WinNT application. But at least you should ask the manufacturer if they support Unix so they get the idea there is some demand there. When they say "No." you say "Too bad" and tell why you won't be buying the printer. The companies are sales driven and if people don't ask they'll just assume everyone is happy with the Windows-only support. Eventually if enough people ask someone in sales/marketing will go to development and ask for Unix support. Some of us on the inside try to promote the idea that Unix should be supported but without customers actually asking for this support the powers that be don't listen. One of the big stumbling blocks is the lack of an abstract printing model for applications. Most applications assume Postscript and this is often overkill. People say use Ghostscript but the GPL'd Ghostscript interacts badly with patent and trade secrets which are held dearly by th e companies. Negotiating with Aladdin for a non-GPL'd version has its own problems. The Windows printer support is actually better than the Unix here (even if the GDI graphics model mostly sucks). -- Chuck Berry lied about the promised land To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 17 15:39:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from athserv.otenet.gr (athserv.otenet.gr [195.170.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A82114E31 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:39:15 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from keramida@diogenis.ceid.upatras.gr) Received: from hades.hell.gr (patr530-a073.otenet.gr [195.167.115.73]) by athserv.otenet.gr (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA00401 for ; Mon, 18 Oct 1999 01:38:56 +0300 (EET DST) Received: (qmail 3803 invoked by uid 1001); 17 Oct 1999 22:40:50 -0000 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: printers (was Re: keyboards) References: <199910171125.VAA36211@ska.bsn> From: Giorgos Keramidas Date: 18 Oct 1999 01:40:50 +0300 In-Reply-To: atrn@zeta.org.au's message of "Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:25:25 +1000 (EST)" Message-ID: <86d7udbogd.fsf@localhost.hell.gr> Lines: 46 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/XEmacs 21.1 - "20 Minutes to Nikko" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org atrn@zeta.org.au writes: > David Kelly wrote: > > As a result, I don't buy these products. Even for a WinNT application. > > Some of us on the inside try to promote the idea that Unix should be > supported but without customers actually asking for this support the powers > that be don't listen. Well, thank you David... it's exactly this kind of people that we Unix users need to be working in these 'inside' parts of key companies, because it really makes me feel better to know that saying "I'm not buying, because I have the honor and curse to be running *BSd at home" somebody is actually going to hear this and somehow care about it. > One of the big stumbling blocks is the lack of an abstract printing > model for applications. This is mainly a problem caused by the totally incompatible ways in which printers of today are talking to their soft-partners, the drivers that each company uses and distributes for that 'other' OS, if I am not mistaken. Of course, having some standards like, say, PCL or PostScript is fine, but it does not give us the possibility to use those 'extra' features each printer might have. Anyway, this is often caused by the fact that the 'proprietary' driver distributed with the printer for some of the 'famous' OSes, does not have to let anyone know how it does this, or what it's telling to the printer over that serial or parallel cable -- and this suits the company that made the printer incredibly, since they can often hide some of their newest and oh-so-cool hacks that make the printer print in such astonishing colors, or with such amazing quality. The result of all this is that, unless you're using Windows for printing, you're a bit out of luck, even with all the efforts of teams like the GNU or Alladin Ghostscript developers to provide us with a good, quality set of tools for printing under Unix. However, what I usually do in environments that more than one PC is available, is to hook the printer on some Windows machine, install all those neat drivers over there, and let the others print over the network with Samba. It's worked for me so far, and I certainly hope it will keep working for some time. This is not a true 'unix-solution' but it's the best thing I could think of, so far. It seems that it's an evil printing world out there... -- Giorgos Keramidas, "That field hath eyen, and the wood hath ears." [Geoffrey Chaucer, 1328-1400] To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Oct 17 18: 6:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mailfw1.ford.com (mailfw1.ford.com [136.1.1.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E43E014A14 for ; Sun, 17 Oct 1999 18:06:28 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from boconno6@ford.com) Received: by mailfw1.ford.com id VAA14587 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 4.2 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org); Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:06:25 -0400 Message-Id: <199910180106.VAA14587@mailfw1.ford.com> Received: by mailfw1.ford.com (Internal Mail Agent-2); Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:06:25 -0400 Organization: Ford Motor Company of Australia Limited. ACN 004 116 223 Received: by mailfw1.ford.com (Internal Mail Agent-1); Sun, 17 Oct 1999 21:06:25 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1999 11:06:16 +1000 From: "Brian O'Connor. (CF583173) HO 2nd Floor" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: [keramida@ceid.upatras.gr: Re: printers (was Re: keyboards)] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org keramida@ceid.upatras.gr wrote: >atrn@zeta.org.au writes: > >> David Kelly wrote: >> > As a result, I don't buy these products. Even for a WinNT application. >> >> Some of us on the inside try to promote the idea that Unix should be >> supported but without customers actually asking for this support the powers >> that be don't listen. > >Well, thank you David... it's exactly this kind of people that we Unix users >need to be working in these 'inside' parts of key companies, because it really >makes me feel better to know that saying "I'm not buying, because I have the >honor and curse to be running *BSd at home" somebody is actually going to hear >this and somehow care about it. > >> One of the big stumbling blocks is the lack of an abstract printing >> model for applications. er.. I thought thats what postscript was. > >This is mainly a problem caused by the totally incompatible ways in which >printers of today are talking to their soft-partners, the drivers that each >company uses and distributes for that 'other' OS, if I am not mistaken. Of >course, having some standards like, say, PCL or PostScript is fine, but it >does not give us the possibility to use those 'extra' features each printer >might have. I thought the postscript ppd model did this, it works well for Irix. ie copy .ppd from windows driver or from vendor(ie hp) or from adobe to the appropriate place, rehash the printer info, and add the queue. The printer manager now shows the extra features(duplex, hi res etc) when you. select that queue, and they are available via "lp -o