From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 5 4:35:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from typhoon.mail.pipex.net (typhoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id AB7A415495 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 04:35:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 915 invoked from network); 5 Dec 1999 12:34:44 -0000 Received: from userac80.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.131.24) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 5 Dec 1999 12:34:44 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id MAA00641; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:34:02 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:33:59 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: "Kenneth D. Merry" , dg@root.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Message-ID: <19991205123358.C325@marder-1> References: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> <199912040742.AAA62858@panzer.kdm.org> <3.0.6.32.19991205012058.0097b100@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991205012058.0097b100@mail85.pair.com> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 01:20:58AM -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > They did not even have a Roman numeral for 0. > One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was that, lacking zero, they had no way of indicating the successful termination of their C programs. -- Anon. > Cheers, > Adam > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet" and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw" - Computer Shopper 12/99 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 5 8:54:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DD35152FB for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 08:54:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA89872; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:53:25 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:53:25 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Mark Ovens Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Kenneth D. Merry" , dg@root.com, freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? In-Reply-To: <19991205123358.C325@marder-1> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 5 Dec 1999, Mark Ovens wrote: > On Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 01:20:58AM -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > > They did not even have a Roman numeral for 0. > > > > One of the main causes of the fall of the Roman Empire was > that, lacking zero, they had no way of indicating the > successful termination of their C programs. > -- Anon. fortune(6) credits this to Robert Firth. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 5 10:53:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mojave.sitaranetworks.com (mojave.sitaranetworks.com [199.103.141.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97E14153FF for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 10:53:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Message-ID: <19991205134951.03437@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:49:51 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: cjclark@home.com, Mark Ovens Cc: "G. Adam Stanislav" , "Matthew D. Fuller" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Correct URL (was: So, what do we call the 00's?) Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <19991204025643.B320@marder-1> <199912040323.WAA32797@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <199912040323.WAA32797@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com>; from Crist J. Clark on Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 10:23:26PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Friday, 3 December 1999 at 22:23:26 -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: > Mark Ovens wrote, >> On Fri, Dec 03, 1999 at 09:33:58PM -0500, Crist J. Clark wrote: >>> G. Adam Stanislav wrote, >>> More in the tradition of -chat, I'll point you all to, >>> >>> http://www.straightdope.com >>> >>> To look for Cecil's report, but I'm too lazy to actually find the full >>> URL of the article in question. >> >> http://www.straightdope.com/columns/940930.html > > That's not the one. > > I think this is a plot just to make me look it up. > > It worked, > > http://www.straightdope.com/columns/960920.html It proves a point, though: if you send a URL, send the URL of what you're referring, not some marginally related one. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 5 11: 1:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mojave.sitaranetworks.com (mojave.sitaranetworks.com [199.103.141.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3814D153FF for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 11:01:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Message-ID: <19991205135905.63795@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 13:59:05 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: jack , David Greenman Cc: "Kenneth D. Merry" , "G. Adam Stanislav" , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: New Millenium (was: So, what do we call the 00's?) Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: ; from jack on Sat, Dec 04, 1999 at 12:29:46PM -0500 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Saturday, 4 December 1999 at 12:29:46 -0500, jack wrote: > On Dec 3 David Greenman wrote: > >> I've heard this argument before (about years starting at 1), but I think >> it is wrong. > > The US Naval Observatory and the Royal Observatory Greenwich > don's share your view. :) > >> From www.usno.navy.mil/millennium/whenis.html > > mil*len*ni*um \ \ n, pl -nia or -niums: a period of 1000 years > > The end of the second millennium and the beginning of the third > will be reached on January 1, 2001. This date is based on the now > globally recognized Gregorian calendar, the initial epoch of > which was established by the sixth-century scholar Dionysius > Exiguus, who was compiling a table of dates of Easter. Rather > than starting with the year zero, years in this calendar begin > with the date January 1, 1 Anno Domini (AD). Consequently, the > next millennium does not begin until January 1, 2001 AD. OK. I've come to generally accept this opinion. Let's look at a few more: When is the turn of the century? By the same logic, that's also in 2001. When is the beginning of the next decade? By the same logic, that's also in 2001. How much is a billion? Look up any non-American dictionary more than 40 years old, and you'll find it's 1,000,000,000,000. American usage has prevailed even in English-speaking countries, but in German or French (and, I suspect, in most other European languages), it's still 1,000,000,000,000. Do I need to explain the last example? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 5 12:44:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from wopr.caltech.edu (wopr.caltech.edu [131.215.240.222]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639CE15466 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:44:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph@wopr.caltech.edu) Received: (from mph@localhost) by wopr.caltech.edu (8.9.3/8.9.1) id MAA43924; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:44:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mph) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 12:44:04 -0800 From: Matthew Hunt To: "G. Adam Stanislav" Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: So, what do we call the 00's? Message-ID: <19991205124404.B43725@wopr.caltech.edu> References: <199912040737.XAA08969@implode.root.com> <199912040742.AAA62858@panzer.kdm.org> <3.0.6.32.19991205012058.0097b100@mail85.pair.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19991205012058.0097b100@mail85.pair.com>; from adam@whizkidtech.net on Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 01:20:58AM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Dec 05, 1999 at 01:20:58AM -0600, G. Adam Stanislav wrote: > I believe the reason was that the mathematical significance of 0 was not > discovered yet. Back then, a year 0 would have been an absurdity. They did There is a new book on the history of zero that I haven't yet read, but want to: "The Nothing That Is : A Natural History of Zero" by Robert Kaplan ISBN: 0195128427 http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0195128427/103-8326897-9003029 -- Matthew Hunt * Stay close to the Vorlon. http://www.pobox.com/~mph/ * To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 5 15: 4:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from germanium.xtalwind.net (germanium.xtalwind.net [205.160.242.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16FE514DF8 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 15:04:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jack@germanium.xtalwind.net) Received: from localhost (jack@localhost) by germanium.xtalwind.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA61453; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:02:39 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 18:02:39 -0500 (EST) From: jack To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New Millenium (was: So, what do we call the 00's?) In-Reply-To: <19991205135905.63795@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Today Greg Lehey wrote: > OK. I've come to generally accept this opinion. Let's look at a few > more: > > When is the turn of the century? By the same logic, that's also in > 2001. Yes it is. By definition a century is 100 years; any 100 years. A person born in 1900, who lives to be 100, will celebrate their first century (100 years) on their birthday in 2000. A person born in 1901, who lives to be 100, will celebrate their first century (100 years) on their birthday in 2001. The "birth date" of the Gregorian calander was Jan 1 1, not Jan 1 0, so its one hundredth "birthday" (the end of its first century) was Jan 1 101. Its 2000th birthday (the end of its twentieth century) will be Jan 1 2001. > When is the beginning of the next decade? By the same logic, that's > also in 2001. That is also correct. A decade is ten years; any ten years. The decade of "the nineties" is from 1990 though 1999. In this case we count the "zero year" as there was a year 1990, IIRC. My first decade was from my birth in Jun 1951 through my tenth birthday in June 1961. The ten years from 1 through 10 inclusive were the common era's first decade, not 0 to 9 since the calendar wasn't "born" until year 1. The second decade of the common era started Jan 1 of the year 11. Jan 1 2001 marks the end of the two hundredth decade of the Gregorian calander. > How much is a billion? Look up any non-American dictionary more than > 40 years old, and you'll find it's 1,000,000,000,000. American usage > has prevailed even in English-speaking countries, but in German or > French (and, I suspect, in most other European languages), it's still > 1,000,000,000,000. American _everything_ is always different than the rest of the world. :) On a page entitled Earliest Known Uses of Some of the Words of Mathematics I found Billion first occurs, with the meaning 10^12, in French in 1484 in Le Triparty en la Science des Nombres by Nicolas Chuquet (1445?-1500?). He used the words byllion, tryllion, quadrillion, quyllion, sixlion, septyllion, ottyllion, and nonyllion. A translation has: "The first dot indicates million, the second dot billion, the third dot trillion, the fourth dot quadrillion...and so on as far as one may wish to go." The translation seem to indicate that he considered a million to be 10^9. Ghaligai wrote that Maestro Paulo da Pisa stated "La settima dice numero di milione" (read the seventh order as millions). Smith (History of Mathematics vol. 2, page 81) writes that this Paulo may have been Paolo Dagomari (b. 1281; d., 1365 or 1374). So it seems we Americans took Chuquet's "The first dot indicates million, the second dot billion..." and applied it to Paulo's "read the seventh order as millions". Not much different than the concept of taco pizza. :) From a truly logical/scientific viewpoint, if you define a year as one revolution of the earth around the sun then this would be the ~4.5 [Paulo]millionth millenium. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack O'Neill Systems Administrator / Systems Analyst jack@germanium.xtalwind.net Crystal Wind Communications, Inc. Finger jack@germanium.xtalwind.net for my PGP key. PGP Key fingerprint = F6 C4 E6 D4 2F 15 A7 67 FD 09 E9 3C 5F CC EB CD enriched, vcard, HTML messages > /dev/null -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sun Dec 5 20:41:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D16B014DF1 for ; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 20:41:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA16667; Sun, 5 Dec 1999 21:41:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991205214026.03e2e8c0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 21:41:11 -0700 To: jack , Greg Lehey From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: New Millenium (was: So, what do we call the 00's?) Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <19991205135905.63795@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:02 PM 12/5/1999 , jack wrote: >Today Greg Lehey wrote: > > > OK. I've come to generally accept this opinion. Let's look at a few > > more: > > > > When is the turn of the century? By the same logic, that's also in > > 2001. Or, in many UNIX programs, in 19100. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 11:25:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from jezebel.demon.co.uk (jezebel.demon.co.uk [158.152.38.143]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3311543D for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 11:24:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Received: from trltech.co.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by jezebel.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA00779; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:26:57 GMT (envelope-from rsmith@trltech.co.uk) Message-ID: <384C0E00.16CA9502@trltech.co.uk> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 19:26:56 +0000 From: Richard Smith Reply-To: rdls@jezebel.demon.co.uk Organization: http://www.trltech.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: jack Cc: Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: New Millenium (was: So, what do we call the 00's?) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org jack wrote: > > Today Greg Lehey wrote: > > > OK. I've come to generally accept this opinion. Let's look at a few > > more: > > > > When is the turn of the century? By the same logic, that's also in > > 2001. > > Yes it is. > By definition a century is 100 years; any 100 years. > A person born in 1900, who lives to be 100, will celebrate their > first century (100 years) on their birthday in 2000. > > A person born in 1901, who lives to be 100, will celebrate their > first century (100 years) on their birthday in 2001. > > The "birth date" of the Gregorian calander was Jan 1 1, not > Jan 1 0, so its one hundredth "birthday" (the end of its first > century) was Jan 1 101. Its 2000th birthday (the end of its > twentieth century) will be Jan 1 2001. The Gregorian calendar was "born" in 1582. At that time Pope Gregory XIII introduced special significance to the centenary years (1600, 1700, 1800, 1900, 2000). So I guess centuries are designed in. As for millennia, if we're not celebrating a three digit roll over, what are we celebrating? JC's 2000th birthday was back around 1995 :-) richard. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 14:59:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk [193.237.89.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3DDA14E3B for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 14:59:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk) Received: from kilt.nothing-going-on.org (kilt.nothing-going-on.org [192.168.1.18]) by nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA89393 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 19:45:05 GMT (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Received: (from nik@localhost) by kilt.nothing-going-on.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA97241 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:49:51 GMT (envelope-from nik@catkin.nothing-going-on.org) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:49:51 +0000 From: Nik Clayton To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: What wouldn't you use FreeBSD for? Message-ID: <19991206184950.A97213@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Organization: FreeBSD Project Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Folks, I'm trying to produce a list of applications you'd use FreeBSD for, and, for balance, I need a list of types of applications that FreeBSD doesn't cut it at yet. So far I've got CAD / CAM -- No applications available Finance -- we've got spreadsheats, but nothing like Quicken, MS Money, or QuickBooks. Apps like Gnumeric aren't there yet for the home user. Cutting edge multimedia -- Shockwave, et al. We tend to lag behind when it comes to players, and we don't have any decent authoring software. That's about it. Are there any other application segments that FreeBSD isn't represented in (from a home or office user perspective)? Cheers, N -- If you want to imagine the future, imagine a tennis shoe stamping on a penguin's face forever. --- with apologies to George Orwell To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 15:10:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from post.mail.nl.demon.net (post-11.mail.nl.demon.net [194.159.73.21]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5622814E90; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:10:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from marc@oldserver.demon.nl) Received: from [212.238.105.241] (helo=propro) by post.mail.nl.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) id 11v7H4-0007bB-00; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:10:30 +0000 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 00:10:37 +0100 (CET) From: Marc Schneiders To: Nik Clayton Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What wouldn't you use FreeBSD for? In-Reply-To: <19991206184950.A97213@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > Folks, > > I'm trying to produce a list of applications you'd use FreeBSD for, and, > for balance, I need a list of types of applications that FreeBSD doesn't > cut it at yet. > > So far I've got > > CAD / CAM -- No applications available > > Finance -- we've got spreadsheats, but nothing like Quicken, MS Money, > or QuickBooks. Apps like Gnumeric aren't there yet for the home user. > > Cutting edge multimedia -- Shockwave, et al. We tend to lag behind when > it comes to players, and we don't have any decent authoring software. > > That's about it. Are there any other application segments that FreeBSD > isn't represented in (from a home or office user perspective)? > AFAIK there is not much possible with those $100 webcams that are so popular now. Marc Schneiders marc@venster.nl marc@oldserver.demon.nl propro 12:08am up 20:57, load average: 3.00 2.66 2.44 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 15:49:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8DE15096 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 15:49:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hiwaay.net) Received: from hiwaay.net (tnt6-216-180-5-80.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.5.80]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id RAA16765; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:48:38 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <384C4B55.DABD48FA@hiwaay.net> Date: Mon, 06 Dec 1999 17:48:37 -0600 From: Kris Kirby Reply-To: kris@hiwaay.net Organization: Non Illegitemus Carborundum. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.2-RELEASE i386) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: jack , Greg Lehey , freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: New Millenium (was: So, what do we call the 00's?) References: <19991205135905.63795@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> <4.2.0.58.19991205214026.03e2e8c0@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:02 PM 12/5/1999 , jack wrote: > >Today Greg Lehey wrote: > > > > > OK. I've come to generally accept this opinion. Let's look at a few > > > more: > > > > > > When is the turn of the century? By the same logic, that's also in > > > 2001. > > Or, in many UNIX programs, in 19100. ;-) My father told me of a Y2K-readiness he performed on a computer (running a MS-DOS program) that programmed Motorola radios. It displayed "19_00", but otherwise functioned correctly. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR ------------------------------------------- TGIFreeBSD... 'Nuff said. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 17:13:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D881525D; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:13:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.0.4] ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.092 #1) id 11v8Bf-0002NO-00; Tue, 07 Dec 1999 00:08:59 +0000 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 00:08:59 +0000 From: Ben Smithurst To: Nik Clayton Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What wouldn't you use FreeBSD for? Message-ID: <19991207000859.A4038@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <19991206184950.A97213@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <19991206184950.A97213@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Nik Clayton wrote: > I'm trying to produce a list of applications you'd use FreeBSD for, and, > for balance, I need a list of types of applications that FreeBSD doesn't > cut it at yet. Games? Or were you wanting more useful things? -- Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 17:39: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bridget.mindriot.net (ith1-379.twcny.rr.com [24.24.11.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B919150A6; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:39:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc26@bridget.mindriot.net) Received: (from cjc26@localhost) by bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA15469; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:37:09 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc26) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:37:09 -0500 From: Cliff Crawford To: Nik Clayton Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What wouldn't you use FreeBSD for? Message-ID: <19991206203709.B14972@cornell.edu> Reply-To: cjc26@cornell.edu References: <19991206184950.A97213@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <19991206184950.A97213@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org There were several discussions on -stable last summer about mmap() race conditions and problems they cause when running INN. See * Nik Clayton menulis: > Folks, > > I'm trying to produce a list of applications you'd use FreeBSD for, and, > for balance, I need a list of types of applications that FreeBSD doesn't > cut it at yet. -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- "I am not an HTML tag!" --Manuel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 17:42:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B80B14DED for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 17:42:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA52538; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:46:40 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199912070146.UAA52538@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: New Millenium (was: So, what do we call the 00's?) In-Reply-To: from jack at "Dec 5, 1999 06:02:39 pm" To: jack@germanium.xtalwind.net (jack) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:46:40 -0500 (EST) Cc: grog@lemis.com (Greg Lehey), freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org jack wrote, > Today Greg Lehey wrote: > > > OK. I've come to generally accept this opinion. Let's look at a few > > more: > > > > When is the turn of the century? By the same logic, that's also in > > 2001. > > Yes it is. > By definition a century is 100 years; any 100 years. > A person born in 1900, who lives to be 100, will celebrate their > first century (100 years) on their birthday in 2000. > > A person born in 1901, who lives to be 100, will celebrate their > first century (100 years) on their birthday in 2001. > > The "birth date" of the Gregorian calander was Jan 1 1, not > Jan 1 0, so its one hundredth "birthday" (the end of its first > century) was Jan 1 101. Its 2000th birthday (the end of its > twentieth century) will be Jan 1 2001. > > > When is the beginning of the next decade? By the same logic, that's > > also in 2001. > > That is also correct. > A decade is ten years; any ten years. The decade of "the > nineties" is from 1990 though 1999. In this case we count the > "zero year" as there was a year 1990, IIRC. My first decade was > from my birth in Jun 1951 through my tenth birthday in June 1961. > > The ten years from 1 through 10 inclusive were the common era's > first decade, not 0 to 9 since the calendar wasn't "born" until > year 1. The second decade of the common era started Jan 1 of the > year 11. Jan 1 2001 marks the end of the two hundredth decade of > the Gregorian calander. What has fascinated me is how people talk about 2000 as if it were the end of the millennium, but also talk about the 1900's as the 20th century and the 21st in the 2000's. There the situation is reversed. Becuase the hundreds place _was_ '0' during the 1st century, the hundred's place of the year differs by one from the ordinal number of the century. Why weren't these people celebrating the end of the millennium when we went from the 19th to 20th century? I guess people will fudge on one year... but 100? :) [snip] > From a truly logical/scientific viewpoint, if you define a year > as one revolution of the earth around the sun then this would be > the ~4.5 [Paulo]millionth millenium. That might not be a good way to define a year. You need to specify an arbitrary date when the Earth passed from planetoid to 'Earth,' and then it's still not a particularly useful number since the time it takes the Earth to go around the sun is not a constant. And how do you define 'going around the sun?' Relative to the 'fixed stars' (other stars in our galaxy) I assume. But they move along with us as the galaxy rotates and also have relative motion among themselves... hmmm... A NASA site has the following info (a _complete_ URL ;), http://sulu.lerc.nasa.gov/dictionary/y.html year A period of one revolution of the earth around the sun. The period of one revolution with respect to the vernal equinox, averaging 365 days 5 hours 48 minutes 45.68 seconds in 1955, is called a tropical, astronomical, equinoctial, natural, or solar year. The period with respect to the stars, averaging 365 days 6 hours 9 minutes 9.55 seconds in 1955, is called a sidereal year. The period of revolution from perihelion to perihelion, averaging 365 days 6 hours 13 minutes 53.16 seconds in 1955, is an anomalistic year. The period between successive returns of the sun to a sidereal hour angle of 80 degrees is called a fictitious or Besselian year. A civil year is the calendar year of 365 days in common years, or 366 days in leap years. A light year is a unit of length equal to the distance light travels in one year, 9.460 X 10E12 kilometers. The term year is occasionally applied to other intervals such as an eclipse year, the interval between two successive conjunctions of the sun with the same node of the moon's orbit, a period averaging 346 days 14 hours 52 minutes 52.23 seconds in 1955, or a great or Platonic year, the period of one complete cycle of the equinoxes around the ecliptic, about 25,800 years. Of course, using rotations around the sun over the entire Earth's history (or seconds since the Big Bang) is somewhat problematic since your 4.5 million millennia comes with quite an error bar. I'd be born in 4 500 001 970 +/-500 000 000 or so. ;) -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 18:18:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from stumpy.dannyland.org (stumpy.dannyland.org [209.157.133.194]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8172214C22 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:18:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dannyman@stumpy.dannyland.org) Received: by stumpy.dannyland.org (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 9F0733DDB; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:18:53 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:18:53 -0800 From: dannyman To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: majordomo resend to alias security Message-ID: <19991206181853.U37918@stumpy.dannyland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i X-Loop: djhoward@uiuc.edu X-URL: http://www.dannyland.org/~dannyman/ Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org hrmmm, i'm mailing this list because i can't find a majordomo list that appears to be active. I want to have a periodic "announcement" mailing list. It is, of course, moderated. Using majordomo and Postfix sems like a rockin' idea. So I set it up ... herein lies my conudrum ... test-l: "|/usr/local/majordomo/wrapper resend -d -l test-l -h cronic.tellme.com test-l-outgoing" test-l-outgoing::include:/usr/local/majordomo/lists/test-l Now ... what in the heck is there to stop anyone from bypassing resend and simply mailing the -outgoing list directly? I tried and tried to find some wisdom here, but to no avail. So, I wondered to myself ... what about security through obscurity? It isn't like my system aliases are open to the public ... but they are ... one must only subscribe to the list, check out Postfix' "Delivered-to:" headers, and WHAM! They have an instant avenue to bypass my moderation and spam my members! NOT cool. I looked through my FreeBSD lists ... I don't see anything that looks like an "outgoing" alias ... how is FreeBSD doing it? Is anyone aware of this problem, and knows the way around it? Maybe I can get Postfix to simply supress Delivered-to: ? C'mon, I know somebody has wrestled with, and possibly overcome this problem ... :) TIA for any advice, -danny -- come.to/dannyman To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 18:56:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from peloton.runet.edu (peloton.runet.edu [137.45.96.205]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7760514D68; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 18:56:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Received: from localhost (brett@localhost) by peloton.runet.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10109; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:56:32 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from brett@peloton.runet.edu) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:56:31 -0500 (EST) From: Brett Taylor To: Nik Clayton Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What wouldn't you use FreeBSD for? In-Reply-To: <19991206184950.A97213@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi Nik, On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > I'm trying to produce a list of applications you'd use FreeBSD for, and, > for balance, I need a list of types of applications that FreeBSD doesn't > cut it at yet. > Finance -- we've got spreadsheats, but nothing like Quicken, MS Money, > or QuickBooks. Apps like Gnumeric aren't there yet for the home user. Well, depending on what you need to do, cbb (in ports) works great as an account balancer. No, it doesn't have _everything_ Quicken or Money has, but I've found that I could enter and balance my checking account faster using cbb than my ex-gf w/ Money. YMMV. Brett ***************************************************** Dr. Brett Taylor brett@peloton.runet.edu * Dept of Chem and Physics * Curie 39A (540) 831-6147 * Dept. of Mathematics and Statistics * Walker 234 (540) 831-5410 * ***************************************************** To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 20: 5:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from umd5.umd.edu (umd5.umd.edu [128.8.10.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E58914F12; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:05:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from marple.umd.edu (marple.umd.edu [128.8.10.50]) by umd5.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA25365; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:05:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by marple.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA09072; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:05:38 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: marple.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:05:37 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@marple.umd.edu To: Nik Clayton Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What wouldn't you use FreeBSD for? In-Reply-To: <19991206184950.A97213@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 6 Dec 1999, Nik Clayton wrote: > Folks, > > I'm trying to produce a list of applications you'd use FreeBSD for, and, > for balance, I need a list of types of applications that FreeBSD doesn't > cut it at yet. > > So far I've got > > CAD / CAM -- No applications available > > Finance -- we've got spreadsheats, but nothing like Quicken, MS Money, > or QuickBooks. Apps like Gnumeric aren't there yet for the home user. > > Cutting edge multimedia -- Shockwave, et al. We tend to lag behind when > it comes to players, and we don't have any decent authoring software. You might want to note that there are often Linux-only binaries for Shockwave and RealPlayer which some have had some luck with. I will not verify that they work as I do not care enough to try, but I have heard good things. There are probably EMACS modes for the others too ;) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 20:20:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fep7.mail.ozemail.net (fep7-old.mail.ozemail.net [203.2.192.99]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 53D4514CFD; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 20:20:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from c9710216@atlas.newcastle.edu.au) Received: from atlas.newcastle.edu.au (slnew55p54.ozemail.com.au [203.108.151.132]) by fep7.mail.ozemail.net (8.9.0/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA04436; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:20:25 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <384C9890.75900DA4@atlas.newcastle.edu.au> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 16:18:08 +1100 From: "Jacob A. Hart" X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ben Smithurst Cc: Nik Clayton , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: What wouldn't you use FreeBSD for? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Ben Smithurst wrote: > Nik Clayton wrote: > > > I'm trying to produce a list of applications you'd use FreeBSD for, and, > > for balance, I need a list of types of applications that FreeBSD doesn't > > cut it at yet. > > Games? Or were you wanting more useful things? > FreeBSD is *easily* as good a gaming platform as Linux -- we're equivalent in everything but mindshare. Using Linux ABI compatibility I've played the following games: Quake II (v3.20) Quake III Arena (demo test) Unreal Tournament (demo v348) Unreal Tournament (Final retail v400) And I'd place money on these working: Quake I Heretic II Civilization: Call To Power Quake III Arena (Final) I think it's pretty safe to assume that most Linux games should work perfectly under FreeBSD, provided they don't become dependant on Linux specific devices that we don't support yet (i.e. /dev/3dfx). -jake (obituary) Powered by FreeBSD c9710216@atlas.newcastle.edu.au http://www.freebsd.org To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 21:38:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBF6B14CEE for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:38:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA60301 for chat@freebsd.org; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:38:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Mon, 6 Dec 1999 21:38:05 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: December San Francisco BAFUG meeting Message-ID: <19991206213805.A60289@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- San Francisco BAFUG -- (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) December 1999 Meeting The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding it's monthly meeting on Thursday, December 9th. This months meeting will be held at Whistle's corp. office in Foster City. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda : ==> There is no scheduled speaker for this meeting. ==> Josef Grosch and Nicole Harrington will talk about BAFUG's plans for the Install-A-Thon at the Oakland Cenvention Center on December 12th. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location : This months meeting will be held at Whistle Communications. Whistle is located at 110 Marsh Dr. in Foster City. There is plenty parking in their lot. Time : The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions : By CalTrain : Exit at the downtown San Mateo station, and walk several miles east on Third Avenue to the Marsh Drive intersection. Alternatively, exit at the Bay Meadows station and take the SanTrans Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus to the Bridgepoint Shopping Center stop and walk 1/4 mile north on Mariner's Island Blvd. to Third Avenue, turning right one block to Marsh Drive. By SamTrans : The Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus line's Bridgepoint Shopping Center terminus is a few blocks from Whistle Communications. By Car : From the South Bay and Peninsula : Take 101 North towards San Francisco, From US-101 northbound, take CA-92 eastbound a mile to the Foster City Blvd., turning left (east) at the end of the ramp onto Metro Center Blvd. Go about a block and turn left (north-east) onto Foster City Blvd. Go about five blocks to the street's end, turning left (north) onto Third Avenue. Go about a block to turn left (west) at the first traffic light, onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. From the East Bay : From CA-92/Hayward, cross the San Mateo Bridge and take the first exit Foster City Blvd., curving right at the end of the ramp to a left (north-east) turn onto Foster City Blvd. Then process as described above for US-101 northbound. From the North Bay and San Francisco : From US-101 southbound, exit eastbound onto Third Avenue proceeding several miles, past the Mariner's Island Blvd. intersection, to turn right (west) onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. WWW info : More info can be found at the following URLs Whistle Communications - http://www.whistle.com BAFUG - http://www.bafug.org Contact : Please contact either Nicole Harrington or Josef Grosch on or before December 9th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Mon Dec 6 23:12:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from frmug.org (frmug-gw.frmug.org [193.56.58.252]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2084B14CA2 for ; Mon, 6 Dec 1999 23:12:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: (from uucp@localhost) by frmug.org (8.9.3/frmug-2.5/nospam) with UUCP id IAA06322; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:11:08 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roberto@keltia.freenix.fr) Received: by keltia.freenix.fr (Postfix, from userid 101) id A27D88863; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:10:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:10:02 +0100 From: Ollivier Robert To: chat@freebsd.org Cc: dannyman Subject: Re: majordomo resend to alias security Message-ID: <19991207081002.A39820@keltia.freenix.fr> Mail-Followup-To: chat@freebsd.org, dannyman References: <19991206181853.U37918@stumpy.dannyland.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii User-Agent: Mutt/1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <19991206181853.U37918@stumpy.dannyland.org> X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT/ELF AMD-K6/200 & 2x PPro/200 SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org According to dannyman: > Now ... what in the heck is there to stop anyone from bypassing resend > and simply mailing the -outgoing list directly? I tried and tried to > find some wisdom here, but to no avail. Use a regexp to restrict access to all -outgoing aliases. See conf/sample-regexp.cf and conf/sample-smtpd.cf. -- Ollivier ROBERT -=- FreeBSD: The Power to Serve! -=- roberto@keltia.freenix.fr FreeBSD keltia.freenix.fr 4.0-CURRENT #75: Tue Nov 2 21:03:12 CET 1999 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 0:22:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from onizuka.vmunix.org (onizuka.vmunix.org [194.221.152.19]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 561B814C49 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 00:22:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from torstenb@vmunix.org) Received: from localhost (940 bytes) by onizuka.vmunix.org via sendmail with stdio (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:22:31 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:22:31 +0100 (CET) From: torstenb@vmunix.org (Torsten Blum) To: cjc26@cornell.edu Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: What wouldn't you use FreeBSD for? References: <19991206184950.A97213@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> <19991206203709.B14972@cornell.edu> X-Newsreader: NN version 6.5.3 (NOV) Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org In ramsey.lists.freebsd.chat you write: >There were several discussions on -stable last summer about mmap() race >conditions and problems they cause when running INN. See > As Marc G. Fournier wrote in the thread you've mentioned, the problem only occurs in INN 2.3-current. One of my employers newsfeeder boxes was running inn 2.2.x and FreeBSD 3.3-stable for the last 4 months without any problem. It has been upgraded to FreeBSD 4.0-current recently. The box is under load (30 fullfeed peerings on an old PPro 200 and running without any problems. -tb To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 1:27:46 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE94014A29 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 01:27:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA29776 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 01:57:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 01:57:10 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: freebsd obsession? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How does one spot someone with a FreeBSD obsession? He has his browser's startup page set to "http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/" -Alfred :) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 7:22:13 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from supai.oit.umass.edu (mailhub.oit.umass.edu [128.119.175.6]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7054615308 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 07:22:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gp@emily.oit.umass.edu) Received: from emily.oit.umass.edu (emily.oit.umass.edu [128.119.166.5]) by supai.oit.umass.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #38130) with ESMTP id <0FMD00AKFMOIQ5@supai.oit.umass.edu> for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 10:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from gp@localhost) by emily.oit.umass.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA17154 for freebsd-chat@freebsd.org; Tue, 07 Dec 1999 10:22:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 10:22:09 -0500 (EST) From: Gregory Pavelcak Subject: mh send/post question To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Message-id: <199912071522.KAA17154@emily.oit.umass.edu> Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org OK, this is not a FreeBSD question, but I have not heard back from the University help desk, and I thought someone in the FreeBSD community might know this one. I have a login account at UMass. $ uname -a OSF1 emily.oit.umass.edu V4.0 878 alpha I can send mail fine from pine or using mailx, but since I'm muttless here, I like to just use the mh commands. However, when I use comp and ask to send the message I get: post: problem initializing server; [BHST] no smtp servers available send: message not delivered to anyone I have tried various settings for SMTP and SMTP_SERVER in my shell with no luck. I have also tried a variety of things in my .mh_profile: setting sendproc and/or postproc to sendmail. That didn't work either. Thanks in advance for any guidance on this one and Happy Holidays to all. Greg To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 8:40:35 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A777F14BE0 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 08:40:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11vNfB-000Fk5-00; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:40:29 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA30209; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:40:28 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:40:28 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Re: freebsd obsession? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: > >How does one spot someone with a FreeBSD obsession? > >He has his browser's startup page set to >"http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/" > >-Alfred :) I must admit, that is pretty bad. :-) How about CVSupping a couple times a day just to see if anyone has been working on changes for the new upcoming release? -jm ------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 9:15:43 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from dark.abyss.net (dark.abyss.net [216.42.72.51]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F6E414F44 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:15:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ksb@abyss.net) Received: from nightmare.abyss.net (ksb@nightmare.abyss.net [216.42.78.195]) by dark.abyss.net (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id MAA92201 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:15:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from ksb@abyss.net) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:16:26 -0500 (EST) From: "Kevin S. Brackett" To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: When will people learn... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org From http://www.ouin.com/ouin/freebsd.html: The FreeBSD 3.3 Distribution of Linux has it root all the way back to the ^^^^^ WHAT? begining of UNIX at University of California, Berkeley, and since then it has grown into an operating system that is used world wide. Featuring: Linux-Kenel 2.2.x XFree86 3.3.5 Is this for marketing purposes, or do people really believe FreeBSD is another Linux distro? - kevin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 9:47:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (csmd2.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De [141.44.22.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA06814C99 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 09:47:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jesse@mail.CS.Uni-Magdeburg.De) Received: from quitte.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (jesse@quitte-atm [141.44.30.41]) by csmd2.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA12317 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:47:03 +0100 (MET) Received: (from jesse@localhost) by quitte.cs.uni-magdeburg.de (8.8.8+Sun/8.8.8) id SAA01688; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:46:59 +0100 (MET) To: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: When will people learn... References: From: Roland Jesse In-Reply-To: "Kevin S. Brackett"'s message of "Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:16:26 -0500 (EST)" Date: 07 Dec 1999 18:46:58 +0100 Message-ID: <0vzovm7iel.fsf@cs.uni-magdeburg.de> Lines: 12 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 19.34 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org "Kevin S. Brackett" writes: > The FreeBSD 3.3 Distribution of Linux has it root all the way back to the > > ^^^^^ WHAT? [...] > Is this for marketing purposes, or do people really believe FreeBSD is > another Linux distro? I believe they believe it. Poor guys. ;) Roland To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 11:53:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kg.ops.uunet.co.za (kg.ops.uunet.co.za [196.31.1.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DAF414DD2 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 11:53:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from khetan@link.freebsd.os.org.za) Received: by kg.ops.uunet.co.za (Postfix, from userid 1000) id 1CB5B16E08; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:53:26 +0200 (SAST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kg.ops.uunet.co.za (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1B53112DB; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:53:26 +0200 (SAST) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:53:26 +0200 (SAST) From: Khetan Gajjar X-Sender: khetan@kg.ops.uunet.co.za Reply-To: Khetan Gajjar To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: freebsd obsession? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: X-Mobile: +27 82 9907663 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Alfred Perlstein wrote: >How does one spot someone with a FreeBSD obsession? He has a tattoo of Chuck - http://khetan.os.org.za/misc/images/personal/daemon.jpg --- Khetan Gajjar (!kg1779) * khetan@iafrica.com ; khetan@os.org.za http://www.os.org.za/~khetan * Talk/Finger khetan@chain.freebsd.os.org.za FreeBSD enthusiast * http://www2.za.freebsd.org/ Stupidest quote heard : Who is this BSD, and why should we free him ? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 12:44:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC1D414D27 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 12:44:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 11vRTc-0000bD-00; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:44:48 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA32254 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:44:48 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:44:48 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Let's get something straight Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I move this comment to chat... Referring to Kirk's interview: Excellent article. Here are three questions that ocurred to me as i was reading. 1. What did Kirk mean when he referred to commercial companies 'leveraging off the stuff that is handled' by the bazaar model? How do you leverage off a free OS? 2. Kirk referred to Unix dumping interfaces as they became obsolete. Is he talking about GUI interfaces, or some other type? What type have been dropped over the years? 3. Kirk said Linux is suffering from problems created by 'unbridled growth without thinking about interfaces.' Again, what interfaces are we discussing? And how are they causing a problem? Just some questions for discussion... i thought they fit better here than under 'questions'. -jm ------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 13:48:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mojave.sitaranetworks.com (mojave.sitaranetworks.com [199.103.141.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5389314D0E for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:48:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Message-ID: <19991207164838.50121@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:48:38 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Let's get something straight Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: ; from Jonathon McKitrick on Tue, Dec 07, 1999 at 08:44:48PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 7 December 1999 at 20:44:48 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > I move this comment to chat... > > Referring to Kirk's interview: > Excellent article. o What are you talking about? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 13:52:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0F1214EB4 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:52:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11vSX3-0001H8-00; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:52:25 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA32566; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:52:24 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:52:24 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Let's get something straight In-Reply-To: <19991207164838.50121@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Tuesday, 7 December 1999 at 20:44:48 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >> I move this comment to chat... >> >> Referring to Kirk's interview: >> Excellent article. o > >What are you talking about? I guess i got a little disconnected.. there was a message i forwarded from questions to chat under the same subject line... it was a link to an interview with Kirk McKusick on sendmail.net. Sorry to all for the confusion. -jm ------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 13:59:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mojave.sitaranetworks.com (mojave.sitaranetworks.com [199.103.141.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6558D14D0E for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 13:59:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Message-ID: <19991207165614.04258@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 16:56:14 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Let's get something straight Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <19991207164838.50121@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: ; from Jonathon McKitrick on Tue, Dec 07, 1999 at 09:52:24PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 7 December 1999 at 21:52:24 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: > >> On Tuesday, 7 December 1999 at 20:44:48 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >>> I move this comment to chat... >>> >>> Referring to Kirk's interview: >>> Excellent article. o >> >> What are you talking about? > > I guess i got a little disconnected.. there was a message i forwarded from > questions to chat under the same subject line... it was a link to an > interview with Kirk McKusick on sendmail.net. Sorry to all for the > confusion. URL? Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 15: 3: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7213814ED9 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:03:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11vTdP-000259-00; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:03:03 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA32899; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:03:02 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:03:02 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Let's get something straight In-Reply-To: <19991207165614.04258@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The URL for the article is www.sendmail.net.. then click on interviews on the left, and Kirk is about halfway down the page. -jm ------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 15:36:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mojave.sitaranetworks.com (mojave.sitaranetworks.com [199.103.141.157]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D41514EC3 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 15:36:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from grog@mojave.sitaranetworks.com) Message-ID: <19991207183308.20798@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:33:08 -0500 From: Greg Lehey To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Let's get something straight Reply-To: Greg Lehey References: <19991207165614.04258@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: ; from Jonathon McKitrick on Tue, Dec 07, 1999 at 11:03:02PM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tuesday, 7 December 1999 at 23:03:02 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > The URL for the article is www.sendmail.net.. then click on interviews on > the left, and Kirk is about halfway down the page. I'd call that URL http://www.sendmail.net/?CssUID=&CssServer=&SessionName=&feed=interview004 Ahhh. That's what I quoted by hearsay in http://www.daemonnews.org/199912/d-advocate.html. Greg -- Finger grog@lemis.com for PGP public key See complete headers for address and phone numbers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 17:13:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from scientia.demon.co.uk (scientia.demon.co.uk [212.228.14.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19F1814CF2 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 17:13:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ben@scientia.demon.co.uk) Received: from strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk ([192.168.0.4] ident=ben) by scientia.demon.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.092 #1) id 11vTrn-0003md-00; Tue, 07 Dec 1999 23:17:55 +0000 Date: Tue, 7 Dec 1999 23:17:55 +0000 From: Ben Smithurst To: Greg Lehey Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Let's get something straight Message-ID: <19991207231755.A995@strontium.scientia.demon.co.uk> References: <19991207164838.50121@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> <19991207165614.04258@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0i In-Reply-To: <19991207165614.04258@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Greg Lehey wrote: > On Tuesday, 7 December 1999 at 21:52:24 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >> >> I guess i got a little disconnected.. there was a message i forwarded from >> questions to chat under the same subject line... it was a link to an >> interview with Kirk McKusick on sendmail.net. Sorry to all for the >> confusion. > > URL? http://www.sendmail.net/?CssUID=&CssServer=&SessionName=&feed=interview005 -- Ben Smithurst | PGP: 0x99392F7D ben@scientia.demon.co.uk | key available from keyservers and | ben+pgp@scientia.demon.co.uk To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 19: 0: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD95C14F36 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 18:59:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-185.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.185]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id UAA24603 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:59:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA85073 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 20:59:43 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199912080259.UAA85073@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Applixware shipping? From: David Kelly Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 20:59:43 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org http://www.cdrom.com/ says, "This port is scheduled to be completed by mid-November." http://www.daemonnews.org/199912/applix.html sounds like its shipping but doesn't really say that it is or it isn't. -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 19:42:50 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA9D514F72 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 19:42:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11vY03-0008x2-00; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 03:42:43 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id DAA34162; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 03:42:39 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 03:42:38 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Greg Lehey Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Let's get something straight In-Reply-To: <19991207183308.20798@mojave.sitaranetworks.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Tue, 7 Dec 1999, Greg Lehey wrote: >On Tuesday, 7 December 1999 at 23:03:02 +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: >> >> The URL for the article is www.sendmail.net.. then click on interviews on >> the left, and Kirk is about halfway down the page. > >I'd call that URL >http://www.sendmail.net/?CssUID=&CssServer=&SessionName=&feed=interview004 For some reason that URL messed up my lynx display, so to play it safe with other lynx users, i did it the lazy way ;-) >Ahhh. That's what I quoted by hearsay in >http://www.daemonnews.org/199912/d-advocate.html. Yes, i remember the 'copy center' remark. I was especially referring to his comments specifically on the architecture of BSD and Unix in general. I found them very interesting. As i find yours as well, of course ;-) -jm ------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Dec 7 21: 8:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from pebkac.owp.csus.edu (pebkac.owp.csus.edu [130.86.232.245]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C477214EB0 for ; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:08:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Received: from owp.csus.edu (mothra.ecs.csus.edu [130.86.76.220]) by pebkac.owp.csus.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA75898; Tue, 7 Dec 1999 21:08:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu) Message-ID: <384DE65C.407A3A4C@owp.csus.edu> Date: Tue, 07 Dec 1999 21:02:20 -0800 From: Joseph Scott X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Kelly Cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Applixware shipping? References: <199912080259.UAA85073@nospam.hiwaay.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Kelly wrote: > > http://www.cdrom.com/ says, "This port is scheduled to be completed by > mid-November." > > http://www.daemonnews.org/199912/applix.html sounds like its shipping > but doesn't really say that it is or it isn't. > I recently emailed freebsdmall.com asking when they expected Applixware to ship. Their response was they were waiting on final paperwork and then cd pressing. Their estimate was about 3 weeks from that time, which was last week. Given that my hope is that they it will ship in ~3 weeks, give or take. Joseph Scott joseph.scott@owp.csus.edu Water Programs - CSU Sacramento To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 4:41: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED69514CF2; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 04:41:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: (from will@localhost) by blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA00517; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 07:41:03 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <19991206184950.A97213@kilt.nothing-going-on.org> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 07:41:03 -0500 (EST) From: will andrews To: Nik Clayton Subject: RE: What wouldn't you use FreeBSD for? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 06-Dec-99 Nik Clayton wrote: > CAD / CAM -- No applications available I have ported QCad, which seems reasonably powerful. Unfortunately, it cannot be committed to the ports tree until after Qt/KDE ports have been updated to USE_NEWGCC. See http://www.qcad.org/ and tell me if it looks good. Or, if you (Nik) can't judge, someone here who uses CAD stuff.. take a look-see. It works fine in -CURRENT, however. I plan on submitting a working version of the port as soon as possible, but it probably won't come in until after 3.4-RELEASE. -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 4:43:15 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D772914CF2 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 04:43:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: (from will@localhost) by blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA00514; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 07:40:24 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 07:40:24 -0500 (EST) From: will andrews To: Doug Barton Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Daniel O'Connor" , David Scheidt Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 02-Dec-99 Doug Barton wrote: > Well, I would lay money that my crappy IDE drives are crappier > than yours. :) Now that my project is "official" as opposed to > "experimental" I'm working on getting some better ones. My (single) PII-450 w/ 128MB SDRAM + U2W SCSI LVD 10000rpm disks covered a Nov. 16 -STABLE make world in about 1 hour, 15 minutes. That's _with_ softupdates and without anything of value (CPU-wise) in the background other than rc5des. And that's without a -j flag. I don't like -j. :-) > Yeah, the new box I'm evaluating has SCA LVD SCSI, and it goes a > lot faster. I'm compiling -Stable and so far -j 6, 8 and 12 have all It _SHOULD_ go faster with SCSI as opposed to (E)IDE/UDMA/etc. Say, a dt of about 10-20 minutes, depending on overall bus speed & other minor factors. There is no such thing as a "good" non-SCSI controller. ;) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 6:20:21 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63301571A for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 06:19:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA28196; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:19:23 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: will andrews Cc: Doug Barton , Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Daniel O'Connor" , David Scheidt Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 08 Dec 1999 15:19:23 +0100 In-Reply-To: will andrews's message of "Wed, 08 Dec 1999 07:40:24 -0500 (EST)" Message-ID: Lines: 14 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070097 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.97) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org will andrews writes: > On 02-Dec-99 Doug Barton wrote: > > Yeah, the new box I'm evaluating has SCA LVD SCSI, and it goes a > > lot faster. I'm compiling -Stable and so far -j 6, 8 and 12 have all > It _SHOULD_ go faster with SCSI as opposed to (E)IDE/UDMA/etc. Why, because "Scuzzy" is a cooler name than "Eye-dee-ee"? SCSI has higher overhead than IDE, so for a single-disk system (or a two-disk system, provided each is on a separate IDE bus), IDE wins (given otherwise identical disks, of course). DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 6:34:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E3FB14BDC for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 06:34:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA09236; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:33:04 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:33:04 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: will andrews , Doug Barton , Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Daniel O'Connor" Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 8 Dec 1999, Dag-Erling Smorgrav wrote: > will andrews writes: > > On 02-Dec-99 Doug Barton wrote: > > > Yeah, the new box I'm evaluating has SCA LVD SCSI, and it goes a > > > lot faster. I'm compiling -Stable and so far -j 6, 8 and 12 have all > > It _SHOULD_ go faster with SCSI as opposed to (E)IDE/UDMA/etc. > > Why, because "Scuzzy" is a cooler name than "Eye-dee-ee"? SCSI has > higher overhead than IDE, so for a single-disk system (or a two-disk > system, provided each is on a separate IDE bus), IDE wins (given > otherwise identical disks, of course). Sun claims this about the Ultra 5 workstation. The problem with this theory seems to be that "otherwise identical disks" don't seem to exist in IDE disks. The ultra 5's have been no end of trouble with their disks, at least until they get ultra-SCSI ones. > > DES > -- > Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 8:41:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE19C15541 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:40:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) for chat@freebsd.org id 11vk9C-000BUE-00; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:40:58 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA37388 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:40:58 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:40:58 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: freebsd-chat Subject: Yahoo hacked last night Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Check out the article on cnet. I lost the URL, or i would post it. Apparently, crackers changed some test on the yahoo page to threaten computer world destruction with a virus if Kevin Mitnick were not released. Only lynx and outdated netscape/IE users saw it. Yahoo said no data was damaged, and the virus threat was a hoax. Question: if a site like yahoo has telnet disabled (thus disabling running commands directly) how could someone gain control of the system or access to privileged information? -jm ------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 10:44:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from Astrovan.cstone.net (mailstop.cstone.net [205.197.102.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4637C158CB for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:25:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from highway@cstone.net) Received: from cstone.net (snowcrash.cstone.net [209.145.66.12]) by Astrovan.cstone.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-59789U13500L1350S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 12:30:31 -0500 Message-ID: <384E96EA.E9E0833C@cstone.net> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 12:35:38 -0500 From: Sean Michael Whipkey Organization: Cornerstone Networks, Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.61 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.3-RELEASE i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Question: if a site like yahoo has telnet disabled (thus disabling running > commands directly) how could someone gain control of the system or access > to privileged information? There are lots of ways to compromise a system without needing telnet. Buffer overflows in various programs will allow arbitrary commands to be run; some holes in FTP programs, etc., will allow you to FTP as a root user. Any system on the Internet is vulnerable...it's just a question of *how* vulnerable. :) SeanMike -- SeanMike Whipkey - highway@cstone.net - http://www.cstone.net Engineering Department, Cornerstone Networks, Inc. - 804.817.7000 HEY! Lay off the SeanMike! The man's a misunderstood visionary! - Kermit Labmonkey (aka Ryan Kimmet) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 11: 1:32 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id C0B4D15E7A; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:59:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 443641CD733; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:59:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 10:59:25 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Question: if a site like yahoo has telnet disabled (thus disabling running > commands directly) how could someone gain control of the system or access > to privileged information? No system on the internet (i.e. one which accepts packets from the internet) is absolutely safe, it's all a matter of how difficult it is for your attacker to gain access, and making it hard enough that it's not worth the effort given the expected rewards. Hell, even SSH has had buffer overflows.. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 11:11: 3 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7748E15831; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:10:49 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11vmUC-000KXL-00; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:10:48 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA38097; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:10:47 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:10:47 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I guess it's a credit to FreeBSD that yahoo! doesn't have this happen more often, and that the intruders were recognized and contained quickly with negligible data loss. -jm ------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 11:13:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3A961572D; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:13:54 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11vmXB-000H0t-00; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:13:53 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA38117; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:13:53 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:13:53 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Kris Kennaway Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: >worth the effort given the expected rewards. Hell, even SSH has had buffer >overflows.. One thing i never understood... why does a buffer overflow automatically cause a root shell, or does it always? I mean, when i crash programs, i get a core dump and that's it. Even with segmentation faults, the memory protection seems quite robust, and the OS stays on its feet. I've never been dropped to root on my own system, despite crashing. > >Kris > > -jm ------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 11:18:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 2A4F0157F8; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:18:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 04E271CD403; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:18:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:18:24 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > One thing i never understood... why does a buffer overflow automatically > cause a root shell, or does it always? I mean, when i crash > programs, i get a core dump and that's it. Even with segmentation faults, > the memory protection seems quite robust, and the OS stays on its feet. > I've never been dropped to root on my own system, despite crashing. It happens because by carefully crafting the stuff which overflows the buffer (i.e. actually presenting machine-executable code instead of arbitrary data), the attacker can cause his code to be executed by the attacked machine (this is often why buffer overflows cause crashes, because the buffer overflowed into an area read and interpreted by the program, which can be exploited to change the execution of the program). This can lead to the execution of a shell under the user ID of whatever was running the exploited program - in the case of a daemon running as root, it would be a root shell. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 11:30:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 449761585B; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:30:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16387; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:58:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 11:58:23 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > >worth the effort given the expected rewards. Hell, even SSH has had buffer > >overflows.. > > One thing i never understood... why does a buffer overflow automatically > cause a root shell, or does it always? I mean, when i crash > programs, i get a core dump and that's it. Even with segmentation faults, > the memory protection seems quite robust, and the OS stays on its feet. > I've never been dropped to root on my own system, despite crashing. For a function to be able to return to its caller it must store the return address on the stack, what a buffer overflow generally does is overwrite that return address with a pointer to some more data on the stack which is actually machine instructions to exec a shell. When the function returns, it gets hijacked, it never returns to its caller, it jumps into its own stack and exec's a shell. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 14:22:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (c1870039.telekabel.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6DAB151E6; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:21:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA04106; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:20:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <384ED9C2.348253DC@nisser.com> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 23:20:50 +0100 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: eboa - engineering buro Office Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > For a function to be able to return to its caller it must store the > return address on the stack, what a buffer overflow generally does > is overwrite that return address with a pointer to some more data > on the stack which is actually machine instructions to exec a shell. How? Wouldn't it be a tremendous happenstance if the buffer that overflows actually just happens to be where the stack is? If you overflow a buffer you write bytes into dataspace where, in a protected environment, it won't get executed. No matter what you push onto the return stack. Worse, the i386 has several exceptions it can raise to signal stack over- and underflows so the stack could be a fairly well controlled environment. Actually, the same can be done for data space segments as well. Thereby preventing buffer overflows from overflowing into code space. Maybe if you had aliassed segments to allow access by anything to anything you could do this easily. But otherwise? Well... easily? Bit of an understatement . Not only do you need the right bytes at the right time, you also need the right buffer to overflow so the right bytes get put at the right place. Would still be a neat trick. Roelof -- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. Telekabel home http://nisser.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 14:35:25 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74AE414A25; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:35:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA20580; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:03:28 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:03:28 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Roelof Osinga Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: <384ED9C2.348253DC@nisser.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Roelof Osinga wrote: > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > For a function to be able to return to its caller it must store the > > return address on the stack, what a buffer overflow generally does > > is overwrite that return address with a pointer to some more data > > on the stack which is actually machine instructions to exec a shell. > > How? Wouldn't it be a tremendous happenstance if the buffer that > overflows actually just happens to be where the stack is? It's common in C where automatic variables are allocated on the stack. > If you > overflow a buffer you write bytes into dataspace where, in a > protected environment, it won't get executed. Not if it's on the stack. > No matter what you > push onto the return stack. Worse, the i386 has several exceptions > it can raise to signal stack over- and underflows so the stack could > be a fairly well controlled environment. Actually, the same can be > done for data space segments as well. Thereby preventing buffer > overflows from overflowing into code space. The problem is that memory protection can really only be done in page-sized chunks. > Maybe if you had aliassed segments to allow access by anything to > anything you could do this easily. But otherwise? The stack is executable, check the mailing lists for "trampoline" this hasn't come up in almost a year. > Well... easily? Bit of an understatement . Not only do you need > the right bytes at the right time, you also need the right buffer to > overflow so the right bytes get put at the right place. Would still > be a neat trick. It's not difficult if you have the source or a lot of time on your hands. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 14:41:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B49A151D3 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:41:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA79148 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:41:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:41:08 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Head count for San Francisco BAFUG meeting Message-ID: <19991208144108.A79116@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday 5 pm it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 14:57:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (c1870039.telekabel.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F5CB150C6; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 14:57:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id XAA04312; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:55:59 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <384EE21E.AE92B628@nisser.com> Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 23:56:30 +0100 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: eboa - engineering buro Office Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alfred Perlstein Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > It's common in C where automatic variables are allocated on the stack. Shoot, yes. Forgot about that. > ... > The stack is executable, check the mailing lists for "trampoline" > this hasn't come up in almost a year. OK, so you put the code in the stack with a return address that points to it. Given an automatic variable that is overflowing that would work. > It's not difficult if you have the source or a lot of time on your > hands. It's indeed easier than I thought . Alas. Roelof -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Het Slakke Huis van de TGV op http://SlakkeHuis.com/ ---------------------------------------------------------------- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. Telekabel home http://nisser.com/ Beveiligingsverwijzingen http://nisser.com/links.htm Chello lijn monitor http://nisser.com/~roelof/logs_chello.shtml ---------------------------------------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 15:44:34 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A11FB152AD; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:44:23 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unknown@avarice.riverstyx.net) Received: (from unknown@localhost) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA02915; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:30:27 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 15:30:27 -0800 From: Tani Hosokawa To: Roelof Osinga Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night Message-ID: <19991208153027.G1362@riverstyx.net> References: <384ED9C2.348253DC@nisser.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: <384ED9C2.348253DC@nisser.com>; from Roelof Osinga on Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:20:50PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 11:20:50PM +0100, Roelof Osinga wrote: > Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > > > For a function to be able to return to its caller it must store the > > return address on the stack, what a buffer overflow generally does > > is overwrite that return address with a pointer to some more data > > on the stack which is actually machine instructions to exec a shell. > > How? Wouldn't it be a tremendous happenstance if the buffer that > overflows actually just happens to be where the stack is? If you > overflow a buffer you write bytes into dataspace where, in a > protected environment, it won't get executed. No matter what you > push onto the return stack. Worse, the i386 has several exceptions > it can raise to signal stack over- and underflows so the stack could > be a fairly well controlled environment. Actually, the same can be > done for data space segments as well. Thereby preventing buffer > overflows from overflowing into code space. But none of this has to do with stack over/underflows. This is a buffer overwriting part of the stack, which then returns to somewhere in your code. As long as your stack segment overlaps with your data segment, it's possible. Remember that the stack grows downwards. Imagine: addy description ff00 stack (we're way into the stack!) e000 stack d000 stack 1000 data (buffer_a) (here's our data!) 0000 data so, we have some kind of stuff. we've found a function in the program that is doing a strcpy (naughty!) into buffer_a. we, the evil hacker, have control over this buffer because nobody's doing bounds checking. we feed it d000-1000-code_len bytes of 90h where code_len is the length of the code we will use to execute our root shell. 90h is NOP, so we have been filling up everything with NOPs. since they'll all execute linearly, we can reasonably throw a precalculated offset for the stack to return to somewhere in the middle, like 0x2000. next time the program hits a ret (prolly just after the data input routine that we're exploiting), it's going to jump to offset 0x2000, run NOPs until it hits our root shell code, which is just a system call to exec with some shell code. easier than root shell code is just code to execute something like "echo toor::0:0::::: >> /etc/passwd" so we can log in later. plus, if you're lucky, 0x9090+ will be free for use. so, you just feed it as many NOPs as possible, with the code somewhere above there. this means you don't actually need to know the location of the buffer you're overflowing... useful, if you don't have the source. > Maybe if you had aliassed segments to allow access by anything to > anything you could do this easily. But otherwise? standard case. > Well... easily? Bit of an understatement . Not only do you need > the right bytes at the right time, you also need the right buffer to > overflow so the right bytes get put at the right place. Would still > be a neat trick. as illustrated above, almost any buffer, and we already know the exact bytes we need. as long as you can calculate where that buffer is, you're set. sometimes you don't even need that. if you don't know where the buffer is, you'll have to do some kind of code offset calculation, which is trivial... something like this: call next: next: pop bx sub bx, offset next ; ba-da-bing, you've got the offset of your code. now instead of doing mov si, offset data do lea si, [data+bx] and everything's totally relocatable. --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 16:28:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF53F15239; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:28:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22741; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:27:03 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991208172046.04970d50@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 17:26:49 -0700 To: Alfred Perlstein , Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night Cc: Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 12:58 PM 12/8/1999 , Alfred Perlstein wrote: >For a function to be able to return to its caller it must store the >return address on the stack, Only on certain CPU architectures. Processors such as the TMS99000, Intel i960, and Sparc -- often called "workspace" machines -- store return addresses in CPU registers and are thus less susceptible. The venerable PDP-11 could do "leaf" function calls this way, too. (When I programmed the LSI-11 in assembler, this was a common optimization. Elminating memory accesses was one way to make those old, primitive CPUs howl.) The semantics of some languages, such as FORTH, require separate return address and data stacks. Programs written in these languages are also less susceptible. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 16:44:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89FF9152DA; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:44:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22929; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:42:51 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991208172738.0495eef0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 17:42:38 -0700 To: Alfred Perlstein , Roelof Osinga From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night Cc: Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: <384ED9C2.348253DC@nisser.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:03 PM 12/8/1999 , Alfred Perlstein wrote: >The problem is that memory protection can really only be done in >page-sized chunks. Not so. The Intel segmentation architecture allows much smaller granularity (the exact amount depending on the size of the segment). Intel originally intended to let you use segmentation to do REALLY good protection of the stack, code segments, arrays, even individual stack frames and objects. Unfortunately, programmers soured on the old, 16-bit version of the segmented architecture and didn't take advantage of segmentation when Intel fixed it in the 386. Microsoft, in particular, blamed segmentation for its problems in implementing Windows and OS/2 when the fault really lay elsewhere. Alas, programmers bought it. The result: OSes stopped using segmentation. So, Intel had no incentive to make the instructions which manipulated segments fast. To this day, Pentiums support them only for downward compatibility and to allow the implementation of VMs. The segmentation instructions are microcoded rather than hardwired, and can cause expensive pipeline stalls or (worse) flushes if you use them. >The stack is executable, check the mailing lists for "trampoline" >this hasn't come up in almost a year. The stack needn't be executable. A compiler can EASILY create "trampolines" (also called "thunks") in portions of RAM other than the stack. GCC doesn't, but that's just a misfeature. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 16:51:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from fw.wintelcom.net (ns1.wintelcom.net [209.1.153.20]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AFCE15260; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 16:51:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bright@wintelcom.net) Received: from localhost (bright@localhost) by fw.wintelcom.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA23700; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:19:19 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:19:18 -0800 (PST) From: Alfred Perlstein To: Brett Glass Cc: Roelof Osinga , Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991208172738.0495eef0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 04:03 PM 12/8/1999 , Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > >The problem is that memory protection can really only be done in > >page-sized chunks. > > Not so. The Intel segmentation architecture allows much smaller > granularity (the exact amount depending on the size of the segment). > Intel originally intended to let you use segmentation to do REALLY good > protection of the stack, code segments, arrays, even individual stack > frames and objects. > > Unfortunately, programmers soured on the old, 16-bit version of > the segmented architecture and didn't take advantage of segmentation > when Intel fixed it in the 386. Microsoft, in particular, blamed > segmentation for its problems in implementing Windows and OS/2 when > the fault really lay elsewhere. Alas, programmers bought it. The > result: OSes stopped using segmentation. > > So, Intel had no incentive to make the instructions which manipulated > segments fast. To this day, Pentiums support them only for downward > compatibility and to allow the implementation of VMs. The segmentation > instructions are microcoded rather than hardwired, and can cause > expensive pipeline stalls or (worse) flushes if you use them. So they really can only be done in page sized chunks... :) > >The stack is executable, check the mailing lists for "trampoline" > >this hasn't come up in almost a year. > > The stack needn't be executable. A compiler can EASILY create > "trampolines" (also called "thunks") in portions of RAM other than the > stack. GCC doesn't, but that's just a misfeature. I never said it must be, I just gave a reference to why. -Alfred To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 17:18:52 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from probity.mcc.ac.uk (probity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.94]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 239961527D; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:18:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by probity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11vsED-000PUv-00; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 01:18:41 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id BAA39874; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 01:18:40 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 01:18:40 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: Brett Glass Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Roelof Osinga , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991208172738.0495eef0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org So what exactly is 'thunk-connect' in the windows kernel, anyway? And how did M$ blame something other than segmentation for its woes? -jm ------------------ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 17:33:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA6FF151E9; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:32:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23406; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:31:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991208182954.048a3460@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 18:31:07 -0700 To: Alfred Perlstein From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night Cc: Roelof Osinga , Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991208172738.0495eef0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:19 PM 12/8/1999 , Alfred Perlstein wrote: >> So, Intel had no incentive to make the instructions which manipulated > > segments fast. To this day, Pentiums support them only for downward > > compatibility and to allow the implementation of VMs. The segmentation > > instructions are microcoded rather than hardwired, and can cause > > expensive pipeline stalls or (worse) flushes if you use them. > >So they really can only be done in page sized chunks... :) No, you just have to be willing to take a hit of about 60 cycles per function call, worst case. The thing is, with clock speeds ready to hit 1 MHz, this is getting to be a trivial amount of overhead. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 17:36:40 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from avarice.riverstyx.net (hq-port-89.harbour-dhcp-pool.infinetgroup.com [207.23.37.89]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 684CE14C0F; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:36:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from unknown@avarice.riverstyx.net) Received: (from unknown@localhost) by avarice.riverstyx.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA06621; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:22:30 -0800 Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:22:30 -0800 From: Tani Hosokawa To: Jonathon McKitrick Cc: Brett Glass , Alfred Perlstein , Roelof Osinga , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night Message-ID: <19991208172230.A6304@riverstyx.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19991208172738.0495eef0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4us In-Reply-To: ; from Jonathon McKitrick on Thu, Dec 09, 1999 at 01:18:40AM +0000 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dunno much about Windows kernel, but thunking is just ugly conversions between 16 and 32 bit operations. Prolly used to translate 16 bit socket connection into the 32 bit network subsystem. MS is just stupid. On Thu, Dec 09, 1999 at 01:18:40AM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > So what exactly is 'thunk-connect' in the windows kernel, anyway? And how > did M$ blame something other than segmentation for its woes? > > > -jm > > ------------------ > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- --- tani hosokawa river styx internet To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 17:38:41 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C263415102; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:38:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA61811; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:36:58 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:36:57 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Roelof Osinga , Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991208182954.048a3460@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 06:19 PM 12/8/1999 , Alfred Perlstein wrote: > > >> So, Intel had no incentive to make the instructions which manipulated > > > segments fast. To this day, Pentiums support them only for downward > > > compatibility and to allow the implementation of VMs. The segmentation > > > instructions are microcoded rather than hardwired, and can cause > > > expensive pipeline stalls or (worse) flushes if you use them. > > > >So they really can only be done in page sized chunks... :) > > No, you just have to be willing to take a hit of about 60 cycles > per function call, worst case. The thing is, with clock speeds > ready to hit 1 MHz, this is getting to be a trivial amount of > overhead. > > --Brett Glass > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 17:46: 0 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id C2BE31536B; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:45:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B70C51CD736; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:45:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:45:59 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Brett Glass Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Roelof Osinga , Jonathon McKitrick , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991208182954.048a3460@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > No, you just have to be willing to take a hit of about 60 cycles > per function call, worst case. The thing is, with clock speeds > ready to hit 1 MHz, this is getting to be a trivial amount of > overhead. I know what you meant, but my Apple II hit that barrier 20 years ago ;-) Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 17:59:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from monsoon.mail.pipex.net (monsoon.mail.pipex.net [158.43.128.69]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7461F152A1 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 17:59:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: (qmail 19786 invoked from network); 9 Dec 1999 01:59:18 -0000 Received: from userbg07.uk.uudial.com (HELO marder-1.) (62.188.142.127) by smtp.dial.pipex.com with SMTP; 9 Dec 1999 01:59:18 -0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by marder-1. (8.9.3/8.8.8) id BAA01232; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 01:59:25 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 01:59:24 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Brett Glass Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Roelof Osinga , Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night Message-ID: <19991209015924.B320@marder-1> References: <4.2.0.58.19991208172738.0495eef0@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991208182954.048a3460@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991208182954.048a3460@localhost> Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Dec 08, 1999 at 06:31:07PM -0700, Brett Glass wrote: > The thing is, with clock speeds ready to hit 1 MHz, I assume you mean 1GHz. The 1GHz PC has already arrived http://www.carrera.co.uk/EdSystem/WebSysFolderDetail.cfm?ItemCode=153740&CurrentCode=110295 > > --Brett Glass > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- PERL has been described as "the duct tape of the Internet" and "the Unix Swiss Army chainsaw" - Computer Shopper 12/99 ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 18:22: 9 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from umd5.umd.edu (umd5.umd.edu [128.8.10.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69BA715576; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 18:22:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from wolfe.umd.edu (wolfe.umd.edu [128.8.10.52]) by umd5.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id VAA24405; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by wolfe.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA01016; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:21:57 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: wolfe.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:21:57 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@wolfe.umd.edu To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reaping error(1) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sending this to -chat from -current as it is totally offtopic. On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > I'd also like to rip out fsplit into ports (the code is disgusting and > was probably written by a FORTRAN programmer and/or using f2c :) but then > I'd draw fire from the "people who know someone who uses FORTRAN" crowd. The 20-year old in the crowd asks, what's FORTRAN? ;) Really, I am kidding, I just want to know why UNIX doesn't ship with a COBOL or BASIC compiler by default, too. :) Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 19:19:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bridget.mindriot.net (ith1-379.twcny.rr.com [24.24.11.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5597A151E6; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:19:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc26@bridget.mindriot.net) Received: (from cjc26@localhost) by bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA23577; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 22:17:06 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc26) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 22:17:06 -0500 From: Cliff Crawford To: James Howard Cc: Kris Kennaway , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Reaping error(1) Message-ID: <19991208221705.D23234@cornell.edu> Reply-To: cjc26@cornell.edu References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * James Howard menulis: > Sending this to -chat from -current as it is totally offtopic. > > On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > I'd also like to rip out fsplit into ports (the code is disgusting and > > was probably written by a FORTRAN programmer and/or using f2c :) but then > > I'd draw fire from the "people who know someone who uses FORTRAN" crowd. > > The 20-year old in the crowd asks, what's FORTRAN? ;) Only the greatest programming language ever invented. (next to Ada, that is) (yes, I'm kidding :-) -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- "I am not an HTML tag!" --Manuel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 19:50:48 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0826E151D7; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 19:50:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24668; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:47:41 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991208204602.0493dd60@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 20:47:32 -0700 To: Alfred Perlstein From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night Cc: Roelof Osinga , Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991208182954.048a3460@localhost> References: <4.2.0.58.19991208172738.0495eef0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:31 PM 12/8/1999 , I wrote: >The thing is, with clock speeds ready to hit 1 MHz... Before all the wiseacres out there jump all over me, I of course meant GHz, not MHz, above. ;-) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 20: 1:16 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 117B1151FD; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:01:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA24788; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:57:15 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991208204754.048bd8e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 08 Dec 1999 20:57:04 -0700 To: Tani Hosokawa , Jonathon McKitrick From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Roelof Osinga , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <19991208172230.A6304@riverstyx.net> References: <4.2.0.58.19991208172738.0495eef0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Actually, "thunk" is a general term for a small snippet of code that the compiler must generate to create a connection between two parts of a program. The term was coined by the compiler writers who implemented "call by name" semantics for the Algol-66 compiler. When you pass an expression by name to a subroutine, it must be evaluated in the context of the calling routine each time the subroutine uses it as an r-value. To allow this to happen, the caller passed to the subroutine a pointer to ANOTHER subroutine (a "thunk") which provided the needed r-value on the fly. The thunk had to know how to access the stack frame which contained the context for the expression. (Yes, it could cause side effects in the caller's environment and had to be sensitive to such side effects as well.) "Trampoline code" is another kind of thunk. --Brett At 06:22 PM 12/8/1999 , Tani Hosokawa wrote: >Dunno much about Windows kernel, but thunking is just ugly conversions between 16 and 32 bit >operations. Prolly used to translate 16 bit socket connection into the 32 bit network >subsystem. MS is just stupid. > >On Thu, Dec 09, 1999 at 01:18:40AM +0000, Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > > > > So what exactly is 'thunk-connect' in the windows kernel, anyway? And how > > did M$ blame something other than segmentation for its woes? > > > > > > -jm > > > > ------------------ > > > > > > > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > >-- >--- >tani hosokawa >river styx internet > > > >To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org >with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 20:22:14 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com [24.2.89.207]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E96CB15552; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:22:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com) Received: (from cjc@localhost) by cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA58786; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:26:08 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc) From: "Crist J. Clark" Message-Id: <199912090426.XAA58786@cc942873-a.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Subject: Re: Reaping error(1) In-Reply-To: <19991208221705.D23234@cornell.edu> from Cliff Crawford at "Dec 8, 1999 10:17:06 pm" To: cjc26@cornell.edu Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:26:06 -0500 (EST) Cc: howardjp@wam.umd.edu (James Howard), kris@hub.freebsd.org (Kris Kennaway), chat@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: cjclark@home.com X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL54 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Cliff Crawford wrote, > * James Howard menulis: > > Sending this to -chat from -current as it is totally offtopic. > > > > On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > > > > > I'd also like to rip out fsplit into ports (the code is disgusting and > > > was probably written by a FORTRAN programmer and/or using f2c :) but then > > > I'd draw fire from the "people who know someone who uses FORTRAN" crowd. > > > > The 20-year old in the crowd asks, what's FORTRAN? ;) > > Only the greatest programming language ever invented. > (next to Ada, that is) Now don't be silly. We all know it is Logo (/usr/ports/lang/logo). > (yes, I'm kidding :-) Aww. But the turtle rewls! -- Crist J. Clark cjclark@home.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 20:58:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from umd5.umd.edu (umd5.umd.edu [128.8.10.5]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3B21527D for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 20:58:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from howardjp@wam.umd.edu) Received: from morse.umd.edu (morse.umd.edu [128.8.10.185]) by umd5.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id XAA22014 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:58:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (howardjp@localhost) by morse.umd.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id XAA00077 for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:58:16 -0500 (EST) X-Authentication-Warning: morse.umd.edu: howardjp owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:58:16 -0500 (EST) From: James Howard X-Sender: howardjp@morse.umd.edu To: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: $Id$ -> $FreeBSD$ ... How? Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Having been playing with CVS for the past few days, I would like to know how to use my own "$Jamie$" so I do not clobber anyone else's $Id$ tags. This came up on the OpenBSD list today, but as usual, they were less than helpful and turned it into a pissing match. I am hoping someone around here can explain it. Thanks...Jamie To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 21: 7:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4455315323; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:07:06 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA83504; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:05:30 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 23:05:30 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: Tani Hosokawa , Jonathon McKitrick , Alfred Perlstein , Roelof Osinga , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991208204754.048bd8e0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > Actually, "thunk" is a general term for a small snippet of code > that the compiler must generate to create a connection between > two parts of a program. I learned it in the context of functional languages which do lazy-evaluation. A function call didn't need to return the actual result of the function, but rather just a promise that the result would be evaluated in the future, but only if the result were really needed for something. For all intents, the thunk returned could be used in any way that the actual result could. So it is easy to right an O(1) function to find the Nth digit of Pi. Printing your result, though, could take a really long time. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Wed Dec 8 21: 8:36 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (nat.Sendmail.COM [206.189.75.167]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497B41559C for ; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:08:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id VAA03297 for chat@freebsd.org; Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:09:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Wed, 8 Dec 1999 21:09:57 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: -UPDATE- December San Francisco BAFUG meeting -UPDATE- Message-ID: <19991208210957.A3282@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.4i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org -- San Francisco BAFUG -- (Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group) December 1999 Meeting -- UPDATE -- The San Francisco chapter of the Bay Area FreeBSD Users Group (BAFUG) will be holding its monthly meeting on Thursday, December 9th. This month's meeting will be held at Whistle's corp. office in Foster City. The meeting will start at 7:30 pm. Agenda : ==> Terry Lambert, Julian Elischer, Matt Dillon, Alfred Perlstein, and Jason Evans will use this month's meeting as an excuse to discuss kernel thread support strategies. A peanut gallery will be a good discipline to keep them honest. If you are only going to come to one this year, this is the one. (also the last) ==> Josef Grosch and Nicole Harrington will talk about BAFUG's plans for the Install-A-Thon at the Oakland Convention Center on December 12th. ==> Pizza and Soda will be ordered and the hat will be passed `round ==> Of course, we will have the usually kvetchen about sundry topics Location : This months meeting will be held at Whistle Communications. Whistle is located at 110 Marsh Dr. in Foster City. There is plenty parking in their lot. Time : The meeting starts at 7:30ish with pizza showing up around 7:15ish. We generally get kicked out around 11:00 pm. Directions : By CalTrain : Exit at the downtown San Mateo station, and walk several miles east on Third Avenue to the Marsh Drive intersection. Alternatively, exit at the Bay Meadows station and take the SanTrans Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus to the Bridgepoint Shopping Center stop and walk 1/4 mile north on Mariner's Island Blvd. to Third Avenue, turning right one block to Marsh Drive. By SamTrans : The Route 251 Hillsdale - Foster City bus line's Bridgepoint Shopping Center terminus is a few blocks from Whistle Communications. By Car : From the South Bay and Peninsula : Take 101 North towards San Francisco, From US-101 northbound, take CA-92 eastbound a mile to the Foster City Blvd., turning left (east) at the end of the ramp onto Metro Center Blvd. Go about a block and turn left (north-east) onto Foster City Blvd. Go about five blocks to the street's end, turning left (north) onto Third Avenue. Go about a block to turn left (west) at the first traffic light, onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. From the East Bay : From CA-92/Hayward, cross the San Mateo Bridge and take the first exit Foster City Blvd., curving right at the end of the ramp to a left (north-east) turn onto Foster City Blvd. Then process as described above for US-101 northbound. From the North Bay and San Francisco : From US-101 southbound, exit eastbound onto Third Avenue proceeding several miles, past the Mariner's Island Blvd. intersection, to turn right (west) onto Marsh Drive. Immediately turn left into the Whistle parking lot. WWW info : More info can be found at the following URLs Whistle Communications - http://www.whistle.com BAFUG - http://www.bafug.org Contact : Please contact either Nicole Harrington or Josef Grosch on or before December 9th so we can have a basic idea of how much pizza, soda, and coffee we will need. -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.2 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 9 0:14:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from shell.futuresouth.com (shell.futuresouth.com [198.78.58.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F4F115660 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 00:14:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from fullermd@futuresouth.com) Received: (from fullermd@localhost) by shell.futuresouth.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id CAA16414; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 02:14:13 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 02:14:13 -0600 From: "Matthew D. Fuller" To: James Howard Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: $Id$ -> $FreeBSD$ ... How? Message-ID: <19991209021412.A24546@futuresouth.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: X-OS: FreeBSD Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Jamie, > Having been playing with CVS for the past few days, I would like to know > how to use my own "$Jamie$" so I do not clobber anyone else's $Id$ tags. > This came up on the OpenBSD list today, but as usual, they were less than > helpful and turned it into a pissing match. I am hoping someone around > here can explain it. See the file CVSROOT/options. It allows you to substitute one tag for another. So you'd want something like: tag=Jamie=Id to substitute $Jamie$ for $Id$, or tag=Jamie=CVSHeader to substitute $Jamie$ for $CVSHeader$ (which gives path in the repository, not just filename) Note that CVS will *NOT* support using more than 1 tag. I have patches that hack around it to allow 3, but they're ugly and just perpetuate the actual problem. It's easy to extend the technique to an arbitrary number of tag substitutions, but it's ugly. I haven't had time to create a *REAL* solution to it. Matt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 9 8:24:10 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mooseriver.com (superior.mooseriver.com [209.249.56.198]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC621502E for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:24:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch@mooseriver.com) Received: (from jgrosch@localhost) by mooseriver.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA83650 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:23:58 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jgrosch) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 08:23:58 -0800 From: Josef Grosch To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Last call; Head count for Dec. San Francisco BAFUG meeting Message-ID: <19991209082358.A83619@mooseriver.com> Reply-To: jgrosch@mooseriver.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre2i Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Heads up! I need a head count of people who are planning on attending Thursdays meeting. This is so I'll have some idea how much pizza, soda, and coffee to get. If you could respond by Thursday 5 PM it would be very helpful. Our normally scheduled hacking will now continue. Josef -- Josef Grosch | Another day closer to a | FreeBSD 3.3 jgrosch@MooseRiver.com | Micro$oft free world | UNIX for the masses To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 9 11:37:49 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E63EB15695 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 11:37:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from 208-58-239-129.s129.tnt1.atnnj.pa.dialup.rcn.com ([208.58.239.129] helo=dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11w9Nl-0003xw-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 14:37:41 -0500 Message-ID: <38500508.C0597B32@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 14:37:45 -0500 From: Jonathon McKitrick X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.4-RC i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: yahoo hack article found Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------4030E985207AA86690ED0D89" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------4030E985207AA86690ED0D89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry about the cross-post... my mistake.... -jm --------------4030E985207AA86690ED0D89 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Message-ID: <38500430.4E5B7D58@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 14:34:09 -0500 From: Jonathon McKitrick X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.4-RC i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: q@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org Subject: yahoo hack article found Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Found the article... with some help... (thanks! you know who you are... ;-) I knew i wasn't going crazy.... http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-324748.html?st.ne.fd.mdh -jcm --------------4030E985207AA86690ED0D89-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 9 13:35:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (c1870039.telekabel.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDBD4156EA; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 13:35:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id WAA10923; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:33:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <38502053.28737F7B@nisser.com> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 22:34:11 +0100 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: eboa - engineering buro Office Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Scheidt Cc: Brett Glass , Tani Hosokawa , Jonathon McKitrick , Alfred Perlstein , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt wrote: > > I learned it in the context of functional languages which do > lazy-evaluation. A function call didn't need to return the actual result of > the function, but rather just a promise that the result would be evaluated > in the future, but only if the result were really needed for something. For > all intents, the thunk returned could be used in any way that the actual > result could. So it is easy to right an O(1) function to find the Nth digit > of Pi. Printing your result, though, could take a really long time. Why the past tense? I "recently" implemented one. Unfortunately I wrote it in Smalltalk on OS/2 (Digitalk's V/PM) so it has been sort of neglected since I moved away from that platform. You're right that they're inherently slow. OTOH they lend themselves quite well to automatic transformations and thus optimizations. Not the least of which is detecting when strict evaluation can be used. But their type correctness makes up for a lot. Will prevent a lot of errors and thus save a lot of time. With the continued increase in clock speed and RAM they could have a very good future ahead of them. Roelof -- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. Telekabel home http://nisser.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 9 15:21:23 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60B45156D2; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:21:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-2.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-2.enteract.com [207.229.143.41]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA54823; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:19:41 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 17:19:41 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Roelof Osinga Cc: Brett Glass , Tani Hosokawa , Jonathon McKitrick , Alfred Perlstein , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: <38502053.28737F7B@nisser.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Roelof Osinga wrote: > David Scheidt wrote: > > > > I learned it in the context of functional languages which do > > lazy-evaluation. A function call didn't need to return the actual result of > > the function, but rather just a promise that the result would be evaluated > > in the future, but only if the result were really needed for something. For > > all intents, the thunk returned could be used in any way that the actual > > result could. So it is easy to right an O(1) function to find the Nth digit > > of Pi. Printing your result, though, could take a really long time. > > Why the past tense? I "recently" implemented one. Unfortunately I wrote > it in Smalltalk on OS/2 (Digitalk's V/PM) so it has been sort of > neglected since I moved away from that platform. Er, because I no longer use any functional languages. I don't doubt that functional languages will be around for a while. They are nice to program in, once you get your mind around them. The level of abstraction they provide lets one do very powerful things easily. I once had to translate a short scheme program, maybe 150 or 200 lines, into C. It took the better part of a thousand lines, and a lot of head scratching to get right. The scheme program was developed, and debugged , inside the course of an afternoon. > But their type correctness makes up for a lot. Will prevent a lot > of errors and thus save a lot of time. With the continued increase > in clock speed and RAM they could have a very good future ahead of > them. Whatever became of symbolics and their Lisp Machines? I have never seen one, but they sound neat. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 9 15:25:17 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CD4B14E7C; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:25:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA04057; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 16:22:50 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991209162117.00cc0670@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 16:22:41 -0700 To: David Scheidt , Roelof Osinga From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night Cc: Tani Hosokawa , Jonathon McKitrick , Alfred Perlstein , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: References: <38502053.28737F7B@nisser.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:19 PM 12/9/1999 , David Scheidt wrote: >Er, because I no longer use any functional languages. I don't doubt that >functional languages will be around for a while. They are nice to program >in, once you get your mind around them. The level of abstraction they >provide lets one do very powerful things easily. Non-deterministic pattern matching and backward chaining languages are even more powerful (though dangerous in the wrong hands). SNOBOL and Prolog can both produce results that are surprising -- in a good way if you've programmed well; in a bad way otherwise. --Brett Glass To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 9 15:37:37 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (c1870039.telekabel.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B91D314CC8; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:37:18 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA11610; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:35:40 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <38503CE5.9F3F8377@nisser.com> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:36:05 +0100 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: eboa - engineering buro Office Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Scheidt Cc: Brett Glass , Tani Hosokawa , Jonathon McKitrick , Alfred Perlstein , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt wrote: > > On Thu, 9 Dec 1999, Roelof Osinga wrote: > > Er, because I no longer use any functional languages. I don't doubt that > functional languages will be around for a while. They are nice to program > in, once you get your mind around them. The level of abstraction they > provide lets one do very powerful things easily. I once had to translate a > short scheme program, maybe 150 or 200 lines, into C. It took the better > part of a thousand lines, and a lot of head scratching to get right. The > scheme program was developed, and debugged , inside the course of an > afternoon. Yes, I know. A functional language can even be more expressive than an OO one. I defined the language metacircularly at the end. Did shorten the program substantially. Somewhere up to half. Too bad I didn't fully complete it. The Smalltalk version compiles to plain C . Alas, only the interpreter and typechecker thusfar. I'm still meaning to pick it up again, though. Real Soon Now . > Whatever became of symbolics and their Lisp Machines? I have never seen one, > but they sound neat. They were very neat. But now also past tense I believe. Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of working on one, either. Roelof -- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. Telekabel home http://nisser.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 9 15:49:20 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (c1870039.telekabel.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64B9F14C1A; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 15:49:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id AAA11710; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:47:32 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <38503FAC.8926658E@nisser.com> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 00:47:56 +0100 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: eboa - engineering buro Office Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: David Scheidt , Tani Hosokawa , Jonathon McKitrick , Alfred Perlstein , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night References: <38502053.28737F7B@nisser.com> <4.2.0.58.19991209162117.00cc0670@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > At 04:19 PM 12/9/1999 , David Scheidt wrote: > > >Er, because I no longer use any functional languages. I don't doubt that > >functional languages will be around for a while. They are nice to program > >in, once you get your mind around them. The level of abstraction they > >provide lets one do very powerful things easily. > > Non-deterministic pattern matching and backward chaining languages are even > more powerful (though dangerous in the wrong hands). SNOBOL and Prolog can > both produce results that are surprising -- in a good way if you've > programmed well; in a bad way otherwise. Well, have to disagree a bit. Prolog has depth-first search because of efficiency, but it does mean it can miss solutions thus never finish. Barring Borland's Turbo Prolog most didn't have (past tense since I didn't keep up) typechecking. Backward chaining doesn't ring a bell. SNOBOL is truly ancient . Long since superceded by Icon. Also by the hands of the Griswolds (and others, naturally). But mostly text oriented, as is SNOBOL. I actually copied the lower level Icon string functions for my functional language. They're very powerful. Now what really would be great is an implementation of conceptual structures as described by Sowa in the book with the same name. Since Sowa uses lambda calculus for the agents that was actually the reason I started writing my FL. I "needed" to implement a LC and while I was at it... . I believe there already are some such implementations. I was browsing a Springer-Verlag book some time ago and that described one. Roelof -- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. Telekabel home http://nisser.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 9 19:16:39 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C745C153B3; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 19:16:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06442; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 20:14:25 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991209200536.03b8b400@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 09 Dec 1999 20:14:23 -0700 To: Roelof Osinga From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night Cc: David Scheidt , Tani Hosokawa , Jonathon McKitrick , Alfred Perlstein , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat In-Reply-To: <38503FAC.8926658E@nisser.com> References: <38502053.28737F7B@nisser.com> <4.2.0.58.19991209162117.00cc0670@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 04:47 PM 12/9/1999 , Roelof Osinga wrote: >> Non-deterministic pattern matching and backward chaining languages are even > > more powerful (though dangerous in the wrong hands). SNOBOL and Prolog can > > both produce results that are surprising -- in a good way if you've > > programmed well; in a bad way otherwise. > >Well, have to disagree a bit. Prolog has depth-first search because >of efficiency, but it does mean it can miss solutions thus never >finish. If it's allowed to run to completion it will do a complete depth-first search and generate all possible solutions -- provided, of course, that the tree is finite. Much research has been done on rearranging Prolog rules so as to direct and speed up the search. >Barring Borland's Turbo Prolog most didn't have (past tense >since I didn't keep up) typechecking. Borland Turbo Prolog was based on Quintus Prolog. >Backward chaining doesn't ring a bell. Backward chaining is the mechanism of formal logic which Prolog implements. It tries to "chain" backward from a statement to the facts and rules which prove it to be true. >SNOBOL is truly ancient . Long since superceded by Icon. However, it still has some niceties that Icon doesn't. Regular expressions as implemented in Perl are far less potent than SNOBOL patterns. (The original SNOBOL book contains a complete parser for the SNOBOL language in SNOBOL; the set of patterns is only about 20 lines long. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 9 19:42:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from nisser.com (c1870039.telekabel.chello.nl [212.187.0.39]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56F181537A; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 19:42:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Received: from nisser.com (roelof [10.0.0.2]) by nisser.com (8.9.3/8.9.2) with ESMTP id EAA12772; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 04:41:14 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from roelof@nisser.com) Message-ID: <38507672.25B7FB4F@nisser.com> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 04:41:38 +0100 From: Roelof Osinga Organization: eboa - engineering buro Office Automation X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brett Glass Cc: David Scheidt , Tani Hosokawa , Jonathon McKitrick , Alfred Perlstein , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night References: <38502053.28737F7B@nisser.com> <4.2.0.58.19991209162117.00cc0670@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991209200536.03b8b400@localhost> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass wrote: > > If it's allowed to run to completion it will do a complete depth-first > search and generate all possible solutions -- provided, of course, that > the tree is finite. And not all trees are. And there are those that recurse before the path with the solution(s) is taken. Breadth first would solve that. > ... > Backward chaining is the mechanism of formal logic which Prolog > implements. It tries to "chain" backward from a statement to the > facts and rules which prove it to be true. Still doesn't ring a bell. The process is known as SLD-resolution being a refinement of SL-resolution. The logic texts still await reading but from what I picked up from regular texts I gather it is not unlike Robinsons' unification algorithm. The very algorithm used in type inference. In fact, from what I recall - we're talking very early 80's here, after all - some Prolog's are more or less based on that algorithm. There was an early text floating around from Leuven University or something describing how to roll your own Prolog. I was at the time doing an inference engine in Pascal/MT+ for 8 bit CP/M . > However, it still has some niceties that Icon doesn't. Regular > expressions as implemented in Perl are far less potent than > SNOBOL patterns. (The original SNOBOL book contains a > complete parser for the SNOBOL language in SNOBOL; the set > of patterns is only about 20 lines long. Sorry, but that's even longer ago . All I had at the time was some text print out from the CDC Cyber implementation. Later on I looked at it again, but in a cursory fashion. But one wonders whether SNOBOL's conciseness had something to do with it . From what I remember it gave APL a run for its money. Roelof -- Home is where the (@) http://eboa.com/ is. Telekabel home http://nisser.com/ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Thu Dec 9 19:51:54 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from bridget.mindriot.net (ith1-379.twcny.rr.com [24.24.11.121]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD5A315725 for ; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 19:51:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from cjc26@bridget.mindriot.net) Received: (from cjc26@localhost) by bridget.mindriot.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id WAA27986; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:49:19 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from cjc26) Date: Thu, 9 Dec 1999 22:49:18 -0500 From: Cliff Crawford To: Roelof Osinga Cc: Brett Glass , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night Message-ID: <19991209224918.A27912@cornell.edu> Reply-To: cjc26@cornell.edu References: <38502053.28737F7B@nisser.com> <4.2.0.58.19991209162117.00cc0670@localhost> <4.2.0.58.19991209200536.03b8b400@localhost> <38507672.25B7FB4F@nisser.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0pre3i In-Reply-To: <38507672.25B7FB4F@nisser.com> Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org * Roelof Osinga menulis: > Brett Glass wrote: > > > > If it's allowed to run to completion it will do a complete depth-first > > search and generate all possible solutions -- provided, of course, that > > the tree is finite. > > And not all trees are. And there are those that recurse before the > path with the solution(s) is taken. Breadth first would solve that. Hmm..wouldn't iterative deepening be even better? It would be less memory-intensive than breadth-first. -- cliff crawford http://www.people.cornell.edu/pages/cjc26/ -><- "I am not an HTML tag!" --Manuel To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 1:29:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from flood.ping.uio.no (flood.ping.uio.no [129.240.78.31]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84217151FF for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 01:29:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from des@flood.ping.uio.no) Received: (from des@localhost) by flood.ping.uio.no (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA35256; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 10:29:12 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from des) To: David Scheidt Cc: will andrews , Doug Barton , Alfred Perlstein , chat@FreeBSD.ORG, "Daniel O'Connor" Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? References: From: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Date: 10 Dec 1999 10:29:11 +0100 In-Reply-To: David Scheidt's message of "Wed, 8 Dec 1999 08:33:04 -0600 (CST)" Message-ID: Lines: 20 User-Agent: Gnus/5.070097 (Pterodactyl Gnus v0.97) Emacs/20.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org David Scheidt writes: > Sun claims this about the Ultra 5 workstation. The problem with this theory > seems to be that "otherwise identical disks" don't seem to exist in IDE > disks. Yes, they do. Check the manufacturers' web sites if you don't believe me. All but the most expensive models are available with IDE or ATAPI interfaces (usually labeled N or A) as well as with various types of SCSI interfaces (labeled S, W, LW etc.) > disks. The ultra 5's have been no end of trouble with their disks, at least > until they get ultra-SCSI ones. Because Sun tried to shave a few bucks off the cost by equipping them with bottom-of-the-line disks (Segate Medalist). If the Ultra 5 shipped with e.g. IBM DeskStar disks, there wouldn't be any trouble. DES -- Dag-Erling Smorgrav - des@flood.ping.uio.no To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 2:13:26 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp01.primenet.com (smtp01.primenet.com [206.165.6.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E93715372 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 02:13:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp01.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA22667; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 19:54:27 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp01.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAXWaOaj; Thu Dec 9 19:13:50 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id TAA04264; Thu, 9 Dec 1999 19:13:35 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912100213.TAA04264@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 02:13:34 +0000 (GMT) Cc: andrews@technologist.com, Doug@gorean.org, bright@wintelcom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, doconnor@gsoft.com.au, dscheidt@enteract.com In-Reply-To: from "Dag-Erling Smorgrav" at Dec 8, 99 03:19:23 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > > Yeah, the new box I'm evaluating has SCA LVD SCSI, and it goes a > > > lot faster. I'm compiling -Stable and so far -j 6, 8 and 12 have all > > It _SHOULD_ go faster with SCSI as opposed to (E)IDE/UDMA/etc. > > Why, because "Scuzzy" is a cooler name than "Eye-dee-ee"? SCSI has > higher overhead than IDE, so for a single-disk system (or a two-disk > system, provided each is on a separate IDE bus), IDE wins (given > otherwise identical disks, of course). FWIW, while the IDE specification supports tagged command queues to allow more than one disk transaction to be outstanding, there are no IDE drives currently available that support this (IBM has run some in some labs, but there was no real interest in getting them out, and I am told the project was scrapped for lack of controller support on other than lab-based controllers). This means that for server systems, A SCSI drive with a tagged command queue depth of 128 (common on a number of IBM drives, just to keep the vendor the same) can support 128 times as much concurrency as an IDE drive, everything else about the drive being equal. It's constantly amazing to me that the same people who state that FreeBSD should not go after the desktop and should not have graphical logins and other destop workstation fluff, are the same people who claim that IDE is as good as, or better than, SCSI. Perhaps for a single user workstation, IDE _is_ better than SCSI. All of the benchmarks that claim this are non-concurrent, after all, just like the one application likely to be running at a time on a single user workstation. For heavily loaded servers, howwever, there is absolutely no comparison: SCSI wins because of concurrency, and latency for single-user, single-threaded operations be damned. PS: My SCSI-based, mirrored NOC disk array on my NOC is capable of handling all of BEST Internet Inc.'s mail for a full month in just under 48 hours... for in excess of 10,000 transiently connected servers sending it ETRNs; what's your IDE based NOC capable of? Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 3:32:58 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7981515217 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 03:32:55 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA09367; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 04:32:35 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991210042304.048a2c90@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 04:32:35 -0700 To: Terry Lambert , des@flood.ping.uio.no (Dag-Erling Smorgrav) From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: andrews@technologist.com, Doug@gorean.org, bright@wintelcom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, doconnor@gsoft.com.au, dscheidt@enteract.com In-Reply-To: <199912100213.TAA04264@usr02.primenet.com> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 07:13 PM 12/9/1999 , Terry Lambert wrote: >It's constantly amazing to me that the same people who state >that FreeBSD should not go after the desktop and should not >have graphical logins and other destop workstation fluff, are >the same people who claim that IDE is as good as, or better >than, SCSI. > >Perhaps for a single user workstation, IDE _is_ better than >SCSI. All of the benchmarks that claim this are non-concurrent, >after all, just like the one application likely to be running >at a time on a single user workstation. > >For heavily loaded servers, howwever, there is absolutely no >comparison: SCSI wins because of concurrency, and latency for >single-user, single-threaded operations be damned. I think the real question is, "Can the host CPU provide that concurrency as effectively as the embedded CPU in the drive?" If it can at least get close, one probably won't see a significant difference in performance; the host CPU will do the same scheduling that the embedded processor would, and the raw hardware (the disk and heads) will be used about as efficiently. I honestly don't know how clever the controllers in Joe SCSI Drive are, or how boneheaded (or smart!) a UNIX file system can be as regards efficient use of the disk, so I'll admit that I don't know if this is the way it works on a FreeBSD system. I do suspect that in a RAID system, it might actually be *better* to have IDE drives in the array and a SCSI interface to the computer, since the RAID controller is expected to take concurrency and head position into account. And the "I" in RAID does stand for "inexpensive," which means that, these days, it might as well stand for "IDE." --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 5:59:11 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from moo.sysabend.org (moo.sysabend.org [209.0.55.68]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B85C015490 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 05:59:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ragnar@sysabend.org) Received: by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix, from userid 1004) id B8E517555; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 05:59:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by moo.sysabend.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B662E1D89; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 05:59:43 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 05:59:43 -0800 (PST) From: Jamie Bowden To: Brett Glass Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991210042304.048a2c90@localhost> Message-ID: Approved: yep X-representing: Only myself. X-badge: We don't need no stinking badges. X-obligatory-profanity: Fuck X-moo: Moo. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Brett Glass wrote: :I do suspect that in a RAID system, it might actually be *better* :to have IDE drives in the array and a SCSI interface to the :computer, since the RAID controller is expected to take :concurrency and head position into account. And the "I" in :RAID does stand for "inexpensive," which means that, these :days, it might as well stand for "IDE." Inexpensive != Cheap Jamie Bowden -- "Of course, that's sort of like asking how other than Marketing, how Microsoft is different from any other software company..." Kenneth G. Cavness To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 7:53:12 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from serenity.mcc.ac.uk (serenity.mcc.ac.uk [130.88.200.93]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B17314EBF for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 07:53:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org ([130.88.200.97]) by serenity.mcc.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 1.92 #3) id 11wSLz-000KDA-00; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:53:07 +0000 Received: from localhost (jcm@localhost) by dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA49275; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:53:07 GMT (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 15:53:07 +0000 (GMT) From: Jonathon McKitrick To: =?X-UNKNOWN?Q?=B6=B3=B9q=A4=A7=AD=B7_Michael_Wu?= Cc: "-chat@FreeBSD" Subject: Re: China loves Linux? In-Reply-To: <004e01bf2d26$d91c9740$5ad1c026@keichii> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I realize this is a late thought, but is it possible China loves Linux because it is GPL'ed? The ultimate affront to M$ capitalism? Community ownership of intellectual rights? -jm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 9:23:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from kirk.giovannelli.it (kirk.giovannelli.it [194.184.65.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF1871526F for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:23:03 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Received: from scotty.masternet.it ([194.243.20.91]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA19239 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:22:34 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from gmarco@scotty.masternet.it) Message-ID: <385135CA.3F6C325F@scotty.masternet.it> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:18:02 +0100 From: Gianmarco Giovannelli X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; I; FreeBSD 3.4-RC i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: Xig and FreeBSD Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------286D846F99C2CF925A63D186" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------286D846F99C2CF925A63D186 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This a what Xig said me about the news Brett said us on their idea of don't support FreeBSD anymore... Btw: I am an happy (registred) user of both Metrolink and Xig and I am not involved with Xig in any way... :-) -- Regards... Gianmarco "Unix expert since yesterday" http://www.giovannelli.it --------------286D846F99C2CF925A63D186 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by gmarco.ablia.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01994 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:00:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from chambers@xig.com) Received: from 194.184.65.4 by localhost with IMAP (fetchmail-5.0.5) for gmarco@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:00:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from xig.com (hidden-user@night.xig.com [207.247.80.135]) by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19081 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:01:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from chambers@xig.com) Received: from xig.com (chon.XiG.com [192.168.128.134]) by xig.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA50250; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:00:19 -0700 (MST) Sender: chambers@xig.com Message-ID: <385125C2.E5592203@xig.com> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:09:38 -0700 From: Bryan Chambers Organization: Xi Graphics X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gianmarco Giovannelli Subject: Re: news References: <4.2.0.58.19991209091527.00b062e0@194.184.65.4> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 Gianmarco, This is _not_ true. We currently don't support the ELF-based FreeBSD versions, but we will in the future. Our current version officially supports versions through 2.2.8, and it should work on versions through 3.3 if you install the compat22 package for a.out compatibility. We will be adding ELF support in the future. Please let me know if you need anything else. Sincerely, Bryan Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > > Hello sirs, is it true the news that Xig don't support FreeBSD platform > anymore ? > > As an enthusiastic FreeBSD developer and happy Xaccel user (I bought > directly from you EVERY Xaccel version from 1.2 to 5.0.3, plus CDE) I find > this news very sad and perhaps a bad commercial move. > > Please can you confirm ? > > The world in not only Linux-centric ... > > Thanks for attention... > > Best Regards, > Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" > http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco > http://www2.masternet.it --------------286D846F99C2CF925A63D186-- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 10:14:27 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91BC415085 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 10:14:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA12794; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:14:20 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991210110632.0498fa80@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 11:14:15 -0700 To: Jamie Bowden From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991210042304.048a2c90@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 06:59 AM 12/10/1999 , Jamie Bowden wrote: >Inexpensive != Cheap Actually, RAID systems were conceived as a way of using *very* cheap drives from companies you've probably never heard of -- such as Kalok -- without worrying so much about failures. You knew that these drives would fail every so often, but the odds that more than one would fail at a time were tiny. So, buying a few more drives at a greatly reduced cost (and getting more speed on top of that) was a win. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 13:27:44 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BDC1015175 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:27:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@blackdawn.com) Received: (from will@localhost) by blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA51824; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:25:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38500508.C0597B32@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:25:38 -0500 (EST) From: will andrews To: Jonathon McKitrick Subject: RE: yahoo hack article found Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 09-Dec-99 Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Sorry about the cross-post... my mistake.... You sure this isn't an old article? --EXCERPT-- Yahoo suffers short hack attack By Janet Kornblum Staff Writer, CNET News.com December 9, 1997, 12:35 p.m. PT EOF That certainly looks like quite awhile ago. If you look further down, you'll see other articles from around that time too. :-) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 13:29:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from argon.blackdawn.com (deepspace9.dcds.edu [207.231.151.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 347B414D35 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 13:29:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from will@argon.blackdawn.com) Received: (from will@localhost) by blackdawn.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id QAA51824; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:25:38 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from will) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.4.0 on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <38500508.C0597B32@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:25:38 -0500 (EST) From: will andrews To: Jonathon McKitrick Subject: RE: yahoo hack article found Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 09-Dec-99 Jonathon McKitrick wrote: > Sorry about the cross-post... my mistake.... You sure this isn't an old article? --EXCERPT-- Yahoo suffers short hack attack By Janet Kornblum Staff Writer, CNET News.com December 9, 1997, 12:35 p.m. PT EOF That certainly looks like quite awhile ago. If you look further down, you'll see other articles from around that time too. :-) -- Will Andrews GCS/E/S @d- s+:+>+:- a--->+++ C++ UB++++ P+ L- E--- W+++ !N !o ?K w--- ?O M+ V-- PS+ PE++ Y+ PGP+>+++ t++ 5 X++ R+ tv+ b++>++++ DI+++ D+ G++>+++ e->++++ h! r-->+++ y? To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 16: 3:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from 24-25-220-29.san.rr.com (24-25-220-29.san.rr.com [24.25.220.29]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B7414DA4; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:03:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Received: from gateway.gorean.org (gateway.gorean.org [10.0.0.1]) by 24-25-220-29.san.rr.com (8.9.3/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA50031; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:01:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Doug@gorean.org) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:00:41 -0800 (PST) From: Doug Barton X-Sender: doug@24-25-220-29.san.rr.com To: Brett Glass Cc: Alfred Perlstein , Roelof Osinga , Jonathon McKitrick , Kris Kennaway , freebsd-chat Subject: Re: Yahoo hacked last night In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991208204602.0493dd60@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org If we could return to the subject matter at hand for a moment, could the person who claimed that Yahoo! got hacked please produce a more concrete source? According to my contacts no such thing occured. Thanks, Doug -- "Welcome to the desert of the real." - Laurence Fishburne as Morpheus, "The Matrix" To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 16:19:53 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD8D14A0D for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:19:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16575; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:19:26 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991210171533.03e10ce0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:19:20 -0700 To: Gianmarco Giovannelli , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: Xig and FreeBSD In-Reply-To: <385135CA.3F6C325F@scotty.masternet.it> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Gianmarco: They're not dropping FreeBSD, thank Heaven. What happened was that a bona fide sales representative of Xi Graphics told me that they were "dropping support for BSD." Turns out that she had misunderstood her boss, who had told her that they were discontinuing their version for *BSD/OS*. --Brett At 10:18 AM 12/10/1999 , Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: >This a what Xig said me about the news Brett said us on their idea of >don't support FreeBSD anymore... > >Btw: I am an happy (registred) user of both Metrolink and Xig and I am >not involved with Xig in any way... :-) > > > > >-- > >Regards... > >Gianmarco >"Unix expert since yesterday" > >http://www.giovannelli.itReturn-Path: >Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) > by gmarco.ablia.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01994 > for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:00:17 +0100 (CET) > (envelope-from chambers@xig.com) >Received: from 194.184.65.4 > by localhost with IMAP (fetchmail-5.0.5) > for gmarco@localhost (single-drop); Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:00:18 +0100 (CET) >Received: from xig.com (hidden-user@night.xig.com [207.247.80.135]) > by kirk.giovannelli.it (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19081 > for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:01:18 +0100 (CET) > (envelope-from chambers@xig.com) >Received: from xig.com (chon.XiG.com [192.168.128.134]) > by xig.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA50250; > Fri, 10 Dec 1999 08:00:19 -0700 (MST) >Sender: chambers@xig.com >Message-ID: <385125C2.E5592203@xig.com> >Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 09:09:38 -0700 >From: Bryan Chambers >Organization: Xi Graphics >X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en] (X11; I; Linux 2.0.35 i686) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >To: Gianmarco Giovannelli >Subject: Re: news >References: <4.2.0.58.19991209091527.00b062e0@194.184.65.4> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 > >Gianmarco, >This is _not_ true. We currently don't support the >ELF-based FreeBSD versions, but we will in the future. >Our current version officially supports versions through >2.2.8, and it should work on versions through 3.3 if >you install the compat22 package for a.out compatibility. >We will be adding ELF support in the future. Please let >me know if you need anything else. >Sincerely, >Bryan > >Gianmarco Giovannelli wrote: > > > > Hello sirs, is it true the news that Xig don't support FreeBSD platform > > anymore ? > > > > As an enthusiastic FreeBSD developer and happy Xaccel user (I bought > > directly from you EVERY Xaccel version from 1.2 to 5.0.3, plus CDE) I find > > this news very sad and perhaps a bad commercial move. > > > > Please can you confirm ? > > > > The world in not only Linux-centric ... > > > > Thanks for attention... > > > > Best Regards, > > Gianmarco Giovannelli , "Unix expert since yesterday" > > http://www.giovannelli.it/~gmarco > > http://www2.masternet.it To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 16:32:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.28]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7D6515410 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 16:32:15 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.26.5]) by mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMJ00BLHW4RFA@mta4.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:31:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA16649; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:05:14 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:05:14 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-reply-to: <199912100213.TAA04264@usr02.primenet.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: Dag-Erling Smorgrav , andrews@technologist.com, Doug@gorean.org, bright@wintelcom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, doconnor@gsoft.com.au, dscheidt@enteract.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: >> > > Yeah, the new box I'm evaluating has SCA LVD SCSI, and it goes a >> > > lot faster. I'm compiling -Stable and so far -j 6, 8 and 12 have all >> > It _SHOULD_ go faster with SCSI as opposed to (E)IDE/UDMA/etc. [snip] >This means that for server systems, A SCSI drive with a tagged >command queue depth of 128 (common on a number of IBM drives, >just to keep the vendor the same) can support 128 times as much >concurrency as an IDE drive, everything else about the drive >being equal. This may be a stupid question, but would soft updates improve IDE performance in relation to SCSI? Or would it simply block longer less often? -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 17:20: 2 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net (smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net [207.172.4.62]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3B0314E5F for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:19:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jcm@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) Received: from 208-58-240-234.s488.tnt1.atnnj.pa.dialup.rcn.com ([208.58.240.234] helo=dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org) by smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #3) id 11wbCV-0007ax-00 for chat@freebsd.org; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:19:55 -0500 Message-ID: <3851A6C1.24061FC9@dogma.freebsd-uk.eu.org> Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 20:20:01 -0500 From: Jonathon McKitrick X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (X11; U; FreeBSD 3.4-RC i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: chat@freebsd.org Subject: yahoo story.. my mistake... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Guess i missed the date.. i thought for sure it said 1999. Oh, well. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 17:29:29 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from smtp04.primenet.com (smtp04.primenet.com [206.165.6.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45A7C14E5F for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 17:29:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tlambert@usr02.primenet.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by smtp04.primenet.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA18866; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:27:53 -0700 (MST) Received: from usr02.primenet.com(206.165.6.202) via SMTP by smtp04.primenet.com, id smtpdAAAEaaOWK; Fri Dec 10 18:27:51 1999 Received: (from tlambert@localhost) by usr02.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id SAA19053; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 18:28:54 -0700 (MST) From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199912110128.SAA19053@usr02.primenet.com> Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? To: noslenj@swbell.net (Jay Nelson) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 01:28:54 +0000 (GMT) Cc: tlambert@primenet.com, des@flood.ping.uio.no, andrews@technologist.com, Doug@gorean.org, bright@wintelcom.net, chat@FreeBSD.ORG, doconnor@gsoft.com.au, dscheidt@enteract.com In-Reply-To: from "Jay Nelson" at Dec 10, 99 06:05:14 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > >> > > Yeah, the new box I'm evaluating has SCA LVD SCSI, and it goes a > >> > > lot faster. I'm compiling -Stable and so far -j 6, 8 and 12 have all > >> > It _SHOULD_ go faster with SCSI as opposed to (E)IDE/UDMA/etc. > > [snip] > > >This means that for server systems, A SCSI drive with a tagged > >command queue depth of 128 (common on a number of IBM drives, > >just to keep the vendor the same) can support 128 times as much > >concurrency as an IDE drive, everything else about the drive > >being equal. > > This may be a stupid question, but would soft updates improve IDE > performance in relation to SCSI? Or would it simply block longer less > often? Soft updates speak to the ability to stall dependent writes until they either _must_ be done, or until they no longer are relevent. It does this as a strategy for ordering the metadata updates (other methods are DOW - Delayed Ordered Writes - and synchronous writing of metadata... in decreasing order of performance). Soft updates basically represents possible file system operations as a directed acyclic graph, and then registers dependency resolvers that resolve dependencies between operations on an edge (this is why Kirk often calls them "soft dependencies" instead of "soft updates", the original name used by Ganger and Patt). For operations where the cached metadata updates that have been delayed result in a cache hit and a rewrite of the update, you can expect high performance from soft updates. They also do an implict implementation of what is commonly called "write gathering" by virtue of being able to resolve metadata updates that revert data before it has to go to disk. This is why when you copy a huge tree, then delete it, and you do it within 30 seconds (or whatever you've set your syncerd for), the only thing that gets updated is the access and modification times of the directory in which you did the work. But then you must add in locality of reference. The locality of reference theorem stated that applications tend to operate against data sets which are localized, and that different applications will operate against different localities by virtue of operating against different data sets. In this case, you have soft updates graphs with dependencies hooked off of them, but the directories to which these graphs apply are members og non-intersecting sets. This means that there is no dependency related stalling as a result of the applications modifications to file system data or metadata, and thus, if it can be supported, the operations can be interleaved to stable storage. So the very short answer to the question is "on a multi-applicaiton server, using soft updates doesn't mean that you wouldn't benefit from interleaving your I/O". To speak to Brett's issue of RAID 5, parity is striped across all disks, and doing parity updates on one stripe on one disk will block all non-interleaved I/O to all other areas of the disk; likewise, doing a data write will prevent a parity write from completing for the other four disks in the array. This effectively means that, unless you can interleave I/O requests, as tagged command queues do, you are much worse off. As to the issue of spindle sync, which Brett alluded to, I don't think that it is supported for IDE, so you will be eating a full rotational latency on average, instead of one half a rotational latency, on average: (0 + 1)/2 vs. (1 + 1)/2. Rod Grimes did some experimentation with CCD and spindle sync on SCSI devices back when CCD first became capable of mirroring, and has some nice hard data that you should ask him for (or dig it out of DejaNews on the FreeBSD news group). As I said, tagged command queues are supported by the IDE standard; they just aren't supported by commonly available IDE disks or controllers. Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 19:32:30 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B027214E50 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 19:32:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.26.34]) by mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMK00IJ94HT5X@mta2.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:32:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA00458; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:26:08 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:26:08 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-reply-to: <199912110128.SAA19053@usr02.primenet.com> To: Terry Lambert Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I've pruned the cc list so people dont have to read this twice. On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: [snip] >Soft updates speak to the ability to stall dependent writes >until they either _must_ be done, or until they no longer are >relevent. It does this as a strategy for ordering the metadata >updates (other methods are DOW - Delayed Ordered Writes - and >synchronous writing of metadata... in decreasing order of >performance). It's this ability to delay and gather writes that prompted the question. If a SCSI bus can handle 8-12MB with tagged queuing and UltraDMA can do 30MB while blocking, where do the performance lines cross -- or do they? As the number of spindles go up, I would expect SCSI to outperform IDE -- but on a single drive system, do writes to an IDE at UDMA speeds block less than gathered writes to a drive on a nominally slower SCSI bus? [snip] >So the very short answer to the question is "on a multi-applicaiton >server, using soft updates doesn't mean that you wouldn't benefit >from interleaving your I/O". Hmm... that suggests you also might not. On a single drive system with soft updates, would an Ultra IDE perform worse, on par or better than SCSI with a light to moderate IO load? >To speak to Brett's issue of RAID 5, parity is striped across >all disks, and doing parity updates on one stripe on one disk >will block all non-interleaved I/O to all other areas of the >disk; likewise, doing a data write will prevent a parity write >from completing for the other four disks in the array. I have seen reletavely few benefits of RAID 5. Performance sucks relative to mirroring across separate controllers and until you reach 10-12 drives, the cost is about the same. I never thought about the parity, though. Now that I have, I like RAID 5 even less. >This effectively means that, unless you can interleave I/O >requests, as tagged command queues do, you are much worse off. Applying that to the single drive IDE vs. SCSI question suggests that, even with higher bus burst speeds, I'm still lkely to end up worse off, depending on load, than I would with SCSI -- soft updates not withstanding. Is that correct? >As to the issue of spindle sync, which Brett alluded to, I >don't think that it is supported for IDE, so you will be >eating a full rotational latency on average, instead of one >half a rotational latency, on average: (0 + 1)/2 vs. (1 + 1)/2. I think that just answered my earlier question. >Rod Grimes did some experimentation with CCD and spindle sync >on SCSI devices back when CCD first became capable of mirroring, >and has some nice hard data that you should ask him for (or dig >it out of DejaNews on the FreeBSD news group). Thanks -- I'll look them up. And -- I appreciate your answer. I learned quite a bit from it. It did raise the question of differences between soft updates and lfs -- but I'll save that for another time. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 21:59:59 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6055814E23 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 21:59:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-1.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-1.enteract.com [207.229.143.40]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA55486; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:45:25 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:45:25 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Jay Nelson Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Jay Nelson wrote: > On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, Terry Lambert wrote: > > Hmm... that suggests you also might not. On a single drive system > with soft updates, would an Ultra IDE perform worse, on par or better > than SCSI with a light to moderate IO load? Under light to moderate IO loads, the disk interface isn't likely to be the overall limiting factor on the machine. You certainly save some money by going with IDE. On a low-end box, perhaps as much as 15 or 20% of the total cost of the machine. Once you move away from the bottom end, or you want more than a couple disks, SCSI looks much better. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Fri Dec 10 22:21:38 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BD9214F43 for ; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 22:21:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA19615; Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:06:53 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991210230453.046806e0@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 10 Dec 1999 23:06:47 -0700 To: David Scheidt , Jay Nelson From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 10:45 PM 12/10/1999 , David Scheidt wrote: >Under light to moderate IO loads, the disk interface isn't likely to be the >overall limiting factor on the machine. You certainly save some money by >going with IDE. On a low-end box, perhaps as much as 15 or 20% of the total >cost of the machine. Once you move away from the bottom end, or you want >more than a couple disks, SCSI looks much better. Why wouldn't IDE retain an advantage -- so long as you put the disks on separate controllers to avoid having one block another? (I like SCSI too, but given the realities -- or unrealities -- of hard drive pricing I'm always looking to milk more performance out of IDE drives when I can.) --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 11 10:32:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C9DE14F6B for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 10:32:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA95743; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:32:14 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:32:14 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Brett Glass Cc: Jay Nelson , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19991210230453.046806e0@localhost> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 10 Dec 1999, Brett Glass wrote: > At 10:45 PM 12/10/1999 , David Scheidt wrote: > > >Under light to moderate IO loads, the disk interface isn't likely to be the > >overall limiting factor on the machine. You certainly save some money by > >going with IDE. On a low-end box, perhaps as much as 15 or 20% of the total > >cost of the machine. Once you move away from the bottom end, or you want > >more than a couple disks, SCSI looks much better. > > Why wouldn't IDE retain an advantage -- so long as you put the disks on > separate controllers to avoid having one block another? (I like > SCSI too, but given the realities -- or unrealities -- of hard drive > pricing I'm always looking to milk more performance out of IDE drives > when I can.) For the highest level of performance, you really must have each disk on its own IDE channel. I don't have much experience with machines with lots of IDE disks. The most I have worked with is 4 IDE disks, with two on the onboard controller and two on a PCI card controller. The machine didn't seem to do as many IO transactions per second as a similiar machine with 4 LVD SCSI disks. David To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 11 12:29: 7 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from lariat.lariat.org (lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D47C14FA3 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 12:29:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from brett@lariat.org) Received: from mustang (IDENT:ppp0.lariat.org@lariat.lariat.org [206.100.185.2]) by lariat.lariat.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25440; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:28:40 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991211131141.046bc880@localhost> X-Sender: brett@localhost X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:26:07 -0700 To: David Scheidt From: Brett Glass Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? Cc: Jay Nelson , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.58.19991210230453.046806e0@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org At 11:32 AM 12/11/1999 , David Scheidt wrote: >For the highest level of performance, you really must have each disk on its >own IDE channel. I don't have much experience with machines with lots of >IDE disks. The most I have worked with is 4 IDE disks, with two on the >onboard controller and two on a PCI card controller. The machine didn't >seem to do as many IO transactions per second as a similiar machine with 4 >LVD SCSI disks. AFAIK, IDE doesn't really have an equivalent of disconnect/reconnect (though some vendors have tried to implement something like it). So, by having more than one drive per interface, you're likely to slow things down because one drive must wait for the other. The IDE interface is cheap TTL, though -- a lot cheaper than SCSI. So you really CAN have an interface per drive at reasonable expense. At that point, I suspect that the smartness of the OS, and the speed of the host CPU, would determine performance. I sometimes long for the days of ESDI, where the host could control EVERYTHING about the way the drive was read and written. (I did some experiments which involved positioning the head on a blank track when a write was expected, then writing the data to the very next sector that came along while simultaneously updating an intention FIFO for the metadata on a different spindle. The metadata itself was updated later, so the intention log kept things from getting out of sync due to power loss. You could pull the plug on that machine when the disks were grinding away and never lose a thing.) I also wrote some pretty good disk cache software during that era -- mostly in assembler. I decribed how I did it in an article in BYTE circa 1985, and even threw in a tool that let reader test the effectiveness of different algorithms in real life situations. --Brett To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 11 16:54: 5 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.HiWAAY.net (fly.HiWAAY.net [208.147.154.56]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D35F14E90 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 16:54:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Received: from nospam.hiwaay.net (tnt8-216-180-14-12.dialup.HiWAAY.net [216.180.14.12]) by mail.HiWAAY.net (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id SAA21135; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:53:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nospam.hiwaay.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA08385; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:47:16 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dkelly@nospam.hiwaay.net) Message-Id: <199912120047.SAA08385@nospam.hiwaay.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.1.1 10/15/1999 To: Brett Glass Cc: David Scheidt , Jay Nelson , Terry Lambert , chat@FreeBSD.ORG From: David Kelly Subject: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it? In-reply-to: Message from Brett Glass of "Sat, 11 Dec 1999 13:26:07 MST." <4.2.0.58.19991211131141.046bc880@localhost> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 18:47:16 -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Brett Glass writes: > I sometimes long for the days of ESDI, where the host could control > EVERYTHING about the way the drive was read and written. (I did > some experiments which involved positioning the head on a blank track > when a write was expected, then writing the data to the very next > sector that came along while simultaneously updating an intention FIFO > for the metadata on a different spindle. The metadata itself was updated > later, so the intention log kept things from getting out of sync > due to power loss. You could pull the plug on that machine when the > disks were grinding away and never lose a thing.) How similar is that to the log partition in SGI's XFS? There was no restriction as to what spindle the log filesystem was placed. Quite to the contrary, it was indicated using a separate drive on a separate SCSI bus would help performance. XFS for Linux was to be released by now. I haven't been paying attention. Was it? -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 11 17:33:19 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DD5D14F8C for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 17:33:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.44.218]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FML0003FTMJZP@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:32:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA02048; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:25:09 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:25:09 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Log file systems? (Was: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?) In-reply-to: <199912120047.SAA08385@nospam.hiwaay.net> To: David Kelly Cc: Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, David Kelly wrote: [snip] >How similar is that to the log partition in SGI's XFS? There was no >restriction as to what spindle the log filesystem was placed. Quite to >the contrary, it was indicated using a separate drive on a separate >SCSI bus would help performance. XFS sounds a lot like AIX's JFS. Which raises the question: What is the connection between BSD's lfs, soft updates, SGI's XFS and AIX's jfs? Don't they all do essentially the same thing except for where the log is written? Also -- and this is just curiosity, why did we go with soft updates instead of finishing lfs? Aside from the fact that soft updates appears cleaner than lfs, is there any outstanding superiority of one over the other? Finally, has anyone used soft updates with vinum? -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 11 19:51:28 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id 346E715106; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:51:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AC941CD749; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:51:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 19:51:27 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: Jay Nelson Cc: David Kelly , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Log file systems? (Was: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, Jay Nelson wrote: > On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, David Kelly wrote: > > [snip] > > >How similar is that to the log partition in SGI's XFS? There was no > >restriction as to what spindle the log filesystem was placed. Quite to > >the contrary, it was indicated using a separate drive on a separate > >SCSI bus would help performance. > > XFS sounds a lot like AIX's JFS. Which raises the question: What is > the connection between BSD's lfs, soft updates, SGI's XFS and AIX's > jfs? Don't they all do essentially the same thing except for where the > log is written? > > Also -- and this is just curiosity, why did we go with soft updates > instead of finishing lfs? Aside from the fact that soft updates > appears cleaner than lfs, is there any outstanding superiority of one > over the other? These are FAQs - instead of wasting peoples cycles in explaining it again you'd probably be better served just checking the archives. Terry has posted about it extensively in past threads. > Finally, has anyone used soft updates with vinum? There should be no reason why it won't work, as they're orthogonal systems. Again, check the archives. Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 11 21:16:31 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net [151.164.30.27]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C511014D34 for ; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:16:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Received: from swbell.net ([207.193.25.154]) by mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.1999.09.16.21.57.p8) with ESMTP id <0FMM00KCW3Z34W@mta3.rcsntx.swbell.net> for chat@FreeBSD.ORG; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:16:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by swbell.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA02712; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:13:32 -0600 (CST envelope-from noslenj@swbell.net) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:13:32 -0600 (CST) From: Jay Nelson Subject: Re: Log file systems? (Was: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?) In-reply-to: To: Kris Kennaway Cc: chat@FreeBSD.ORG Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: [snip] >> Also -- and this is just curiosity, why did we go with soft updates >> instead of finishing lfs? Aside from the fact that soft updates >> appears cleaner than lfs, is there any outstanding superiority of one >> over the other? > >These are FAQs - instead of wasting peoples cycles in explaining it again I'm sure you're right, but I couldn't find the answer in the FAQ I supped this morning. Is there a different FAQ? >you'd probably be better served just checking the archives. Terry has >posted about it extensively in past threads. Terry's posts did answer a number of questions. Specifically that lfs and soft updates both could only roll a file system back to a known good state -- instead of a journaled file system which is capable of rolling forward to a known state. Neither lfs or soft updates appear to have much to do with journaling. Still, I didn't find anything that explained the decision to go with soft updates. Perhaps I missed the relevant threads. Were they prior to '98? Sorry for wasting your cycles. -- Jay To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 11 21:23: 6 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mail.enteract.com (mail.enteract.com [207.229.143.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17D7D14BF5; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:23:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Received: from shell-3.enteract.com (dscheidt@shell-3.enteract.com [207.229.143.42]) by mail.enteract.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA31469; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:23:02 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from dscheidt@enteract.com) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 23:23:02 -0600 (CST) From: David Scheidt To: Kris Kennaway Cc: Jay Nelson , David Kelly , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Log file systems? (Was: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, Kris Kennaway wrote: > On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, Jay Nelson wrote: > > Finally, has anyone used soft updates with vinum? > > There should be no reason why it won't work, as they're orthogonal > systems. Again, check the archives. There were some issues with RAID-5 vinum and softupdates. I don't use vinum, so I don't know if they were fixed or not. David Scheidt To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Dec 11 21:36:47 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix, from userid 758) id F115514DA4; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:36:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45191CD79B; Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:36:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from kris@hub.freebsd.org) Date: Sat, 11 Dec 1999 21:36:45 -0800 (PST) From: Kris Kennaway To: David Scheidt Cc: Jay Nelson , David Kelly , Brett Glass , chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Log file systems? (Was: Re: dual 400 -> dual 600 worth it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 11 Dec 1999, David Scheidt wrote: > > There should be no reason why it won't work, as they're orthogonal > > systems. Again, check the archives. > > There were some issues with RAID-5 vinum and softupdates. I don't use > vinum, so I don't know if they were fixed or not. I thought these were more of the case of exposing bugs in the other due to an abnormal use pattern. In any case, there "should be no reason why it won't work" :-) Kris To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message