From owner-freebsd-isdn Sun Jan 24 01:26:56 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05401 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:26:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from linteuto.teuto.de (linteuto.teuto.de [194.77.23.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA05389 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:26:53 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from martin@rumolt.teuto.de) Received: from rumolt.teuto.de (root@rumolt.teuto.de [212.8.203.81]) by linteuto.teuto.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02443; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:26:34 +0100 Received: (from martin@localhost) by rumolt.teuto.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA03402; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:26:28 +0100 (MET) From: Martin Husemann Message-Id: <199901240926.KAA03402@rumolt.teuto.de> Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? To: hm@hcs.de Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:26:28 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Hellmuth Michaelis" at Jan 23, 99 06:05:20 pm Organization: Crusaders Catering Services Inc. ;-) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hellmuth wrote: > What > is needed is a FreeBSD machine with a passive card using the standard > Siemens chipset connected to an ISDN S0 bus or U ref point. Currently > i have no idea, whether in the US the S0 bus or U ref point is the > preferred connection [..] > It is at least difficult to find authorative answers to those questions > from Europe. Over here i at least had a chance to tap an S0 bus, look at > the data on the D-channel and compare that to standard texts until i > found the right one ;-) The ideal setup would be two machines at an S0 bus, three already supported cards and the special cabling to run isdntrace in analyzer mode on one of the machines. I don't know if such cabling could be done for an U ref point. Of course the machines could run NetBSD as well ;-) I'll be in California for SIGGRAPH in August, if we can arrange something at that time I'll be glad to get this project going... Martin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sun Jan 24 01:27:00 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA05419 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:27:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from linteuto.teuto.de (linteuto.teuto.de [194.77.23.26]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id BAA05399 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 01:26:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from martin@rumolt.teuto.de) Received: from rumolt.teuto.de (root@rumolt.teuto.de [212.8.203.81]) by linteuto.teuto.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id KAA02446; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:26:35 +0100 Received: (from martin@localhost) by rumolt.teuto.de (8.8.8/8.8.7) id KAA03119; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:16:41 +0100 (MET) From: Martin Husemann Message-Id: <199901240916.KAA03119@rumolt.teuto.de> Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? To: avalon@advicom.net (Avalon Books) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:16:40 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG In-Reply-To: from "Avalon Books" at Jan 23, 99 07:26:33 pm Organization: Crusaders Catering Services Inc. ;-) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > redundant. And as expected, your inquiry has drawn a less-than- > enthusiastic response from our european counter-parts. I have no idea why > they give Americans such a frosty reception when we express an interest in > ISDN... Sorry you perceive it this way. The more constructive communication has been off-list. Please believe me, noone wants to make a frosty reception. Try to see it the other way around: what do WE get from working hard on implementing a non-european protocol? Besides fame and reputation there is not much - and all the people working on I4B are IMHO proven altruists. So at least make the hard work as easy as possible. When it looks possible (not yet, relevant standards are not at hand) it will get done, sometime. > Of course, we don't normally have to deal with the issue of fully > self-supporting drivers. Virtually all the ISDN equipment available in the > U.S. is connected via seri~al (aka Terminal Adapter) or Ethernet (aka > Router). I4B seems to be a good choice if you have something that doesn't > fall into either category. This is simply a matter of price. Whe I had the choice to buy a router or install an ISDN card in an existing PC at work about two years ago it was the choice between 1,600.-- DM for the router and 180.-- DM for the ISDN card. I chose the ISDN card and due to the general shape of the software at that time (a never released internal version of I4B's predecessor BISDN) spent nearly a week to get it working - so the card was much more expensive ;-) Today things have changed: you'll get a small router for about 250 Euro and an ISDN card for about 100 Euro, installation of the current software is automatic, so the ISDN card is cheaper now. External ISDN TA's are slightly more expensive then an ISDN card here, but not much. Of course you gain some flexibility with the I4B variant (all sources are there, you can program your own answering machine, ...) but if you are only interested in the basic features, this doesn't matter. Martin To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sun Jan 24 02:32:37 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA11617 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:32:37 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.ppp.net (mail.ppp.net [194.64.12.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA11609 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 02:32:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ernie!bert.kts.org!hm@ppp.net) Received: from casparc.ppp.net (casparc2.ppp.net [194.64.12.42]) by mail.ppp.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id LAA14458; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:32:02 +0100 Received: from ernie by casparc.ppp.net with uucp (Smail3.1.28.1 #1) id m104Mpl-002ZjZC; Sun, 24 Jan 99 11:32 MET Received: from bert.kts.org([194.55.156.2]) (2893 bytes) by ernie.kts.org via sendmail with P:smtp/R:smart_host/T:uux (sender: ) id for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:47:57 +0100 (CET) (Smail-3.2.0.103 1998-Oct-9 #3 built 1998-Dec-9) Received: from localhost (2442 bytes) by bert.kts.org via sendmail with P:stdio/R:smart_host/T:smtp (sender: ) (ident using unix) id for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:47:59 +0100 (CET) (Smail-3.2.0.103 1998-Oct-9 #4 built 1998-Dec-26) Message-Id: From: hm@kts.org (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: from Avalon Books at "Jan 23, 1999 7:26:33 pm" To: avalon@advicom.net (Avalon Books) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:47:59 +0100 (CET) Cc: wam@sa.fedex.com, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Organization: Kitchen Table Systems Reply-To: hm@kts.org X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Avalon Books wrote: > On Fri, 22 Jan 1999, William McVey wrote: > > > * The two references which seemed to have the most content were Bellcore's > > site at http://www.bellcore.com/ISDN/ and the North American ISDN Users' > > Forum at http://www.niuf.nist.gov/misc/niuf.html > > Lucky for us in the U.S., we can use the existing PPP code for our > TA's, or switch to routers (my personal favorite), making I4B needlessly > redundant. Passive ISDN cards are dirt cheap over here, no second device is needed which consumes (more) power (than just a passive ISDN card in your box) and ISDN is a bit more than just doing IP over it here, something which is not possible at that extent with a TA or a router. And a passive ISDN card is _much_ more flexible than a router or TA ever could be: its much better suited to serve my play instinct ;-) Hopefully - and the code is already there - i4b will run with the existing PPP code, although i don't see the need: bonding two B-channels together does not make much sense here. > And as expected, your inquiry has drawn a less-than- > enthusiastic response from our european counter-parts. I have no idea why > they give Americans such a frosty reception when we express an interest in > ISDN... In case my resonse was frosty, i apologise it, it was not meant to be frosty. On the other hand, from time to time someone from the US pops up, expresses interest in ISDN, tells he is doing something, disappears silently and was never heard again after some time; so what we are currently discussing, are we - as the european counterparts - discussing the third, fourth or even the fifth time. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis hm@kts.org Hamburg, Europe We all live in a yellow subroutine, yellow subroutine, yellow subroutine ... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sun Jan 24 04:54:11 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id EAA00935 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 04:54:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from asterix.webaffairs.net (port251.bonn.ndh.net [195.94.93.251]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id EAA00930 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 04:54:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from stefhe@gmx.net) Received: from gmx.net (obelix.webaffairs.net [192.168.10.3]) by asterix.webaffairs.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA11394; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:24:57 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from stefhe@gmx.net) Message-ID: <36AB119D.553C5A99@gmx.net> Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 13:27:09 +0100 From: Stefan Herrmann Organization: Free Software Paradise, Bonn X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: de MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Archie Cobbs CC: hm@hcs.de, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? References: <199901232212.OAA19659@bubba.whistle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Archie Cobbs wrote: > [...] > On the other hand, from Layer 3 point of view it shouldn't make > any difference whether its S or U interface. What does S and U interface meen and what is the difference ? I just remember, that some xDSL routers have also U interfaces (i.e. Ascend IDSL). Ciao Stefan -- --- Communications powered by FreeBSD --- Stefan Herrmann Löwenburgstr. 81 D-53229 Bonn To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sun Jan 24 08:27:04 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA19012 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:27:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hcsext.hcs.de (hcsext.hcs.de [194.123.40.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id IAA19003 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:26:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hm@hcs.de) Received: from hcswork.hcs.de([192.76.124.5]) (1937 bytes) by hcsext.hcs.de via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:26:45 +0100 (CET) (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1 built 1998-Dec-11) Received: by hcswork.hcs.de (Smail3.1.29.0 #12) id m104SN1-00003OC; Sun, 24 Jan 99 17:26 MET Message-Id: From: hm@hcs.de (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: <36AB119D.553C5A99@gmx.net> from Stefan Herrmann at "Jan 24, 99 01:27:09 pm" To: stefhe@gmx.net (Stefan Herrmann) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 17:26:42 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: hm@hcs.de Organization: HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From the keyboard of Stefan Herrmann: > > On the other hand, from Layer 3 point of view it shouldn't make > > any difference whether its S or U interface. > > What does S and U interface meen and what is the difference ? There are several so called "reference points" defined in the ISDN standard texts, one of them is the S reference point and another is the U reference point. In Germany, when you order an ISDN line, the Telekom provides you with an NT, the side going out to the exchange has an U interface and the other side, where you plug in your devices, has an S interface, == S0 bus. The U interface is point-to-point, uses 2 wires and 2 modulation schemes are available (AFAIK, a german NT will not work in the US and vice versa). The S interface is point-to-multipoint and uses 4 wires. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis Tel +49 40 559747-70 HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH Fax +49 40 559747-77 Oldesloer Strasse 97-99 Mail hm [at] hcs.de 22457 Hamburg WWW http://www.hcs.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sun Jan 24 08:45:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA21063 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:45:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vespucci.advicom.net (vespucci.advicom.net [199.170.120.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA21052 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:45:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avalon@vespucci.advicom.net) Received: from localhost (avalon@localhost) by vespucci.advicom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA17045; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:45:02 -0600 (CST) X-Envelope-Recipient: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:45:02 -0600 (CST) From: Avalon Books To: Hellmuth Michaelis cc: wam@sa.fedex.com, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Hellmuth Michaelis wrote: > Passive ISDN cards are dirt cheap over here, no second device is needed > which consumes (more) power (than just a passive ISDN card in your box) > and ISDN is a bit more than just doing IP over it here, something which > is not possible at that extent with a TA or a router. And a passive ISDN > card is _much_ more flexible than a router or TA ever could be: its much > better suited to serve my play instinct ;-) More flexible? Hm... I would be interested in hearing a detailed explanation for that. It will go nicely with my up-coming research on european ISDN hardware (its nice to have access to a manufacturer's lab resources). I switched over my entire operation to ISDN and I now have completely seamless voice/data integration. Seems pretty flexible to me. > Hopefully - and the code is already there - i4b will run with the existing > PPP code, although i don't see the need: bonding two B-channels together > does not make much sense here. Why not? Again, a detailed explanation would be helpful, though I suspect I already know the answer--ISDN is extremely expensive in the particular state I reside in, and I use bonding only for really large data transfers. The costs of using ISDN for voice communications are bad enough without intentionally makeing it worse for myself. > On the other hand, from time to time someone from the US pops up, expresses > interest in ISDN, tells he is doing something, disappears silently and was > never heard again after some time; so what we are currently discussing, are > we - as the european counterparts - discussing the third, fourth or even > the fifth time. Well, that would explain it. I would probably feel the same way under similar circumstances. My apoligies if I've ruffled any feathers. --R. Pelletier Sys Admin, House Galiagante We are a Micro$oft-free site To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sun Jan 24 09:57:21 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA28062 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:57:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA28057 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:57:20 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id JAA29647; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:57:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com( 207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V2.0) id xma029645; Sun, 24 Jan 99 09:56:47 -0800 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id JAA28209; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:56:47 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199901241756.JAA28209@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: <36AB119D.553C5A99@gmx.net> from Stefan Herrmann at "Jan 24, 99 01:27:09 pm" To: stefhe@gmx.net (Stefan Herrmann) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 09:56:47 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Stefan Herrmann writes: > > On the other hand, from Layer 3 point of view it shouldn't make > > any difference whether its S or U interface. > > What does S and U interface meen and what is the difference ? It's just some typical ITU language. The line that comes to your house ends in a U interface. If you stick an NT1 on it, then that converts the U into an S interface. The difference between the two is that only one device can connect to a U interface, whereas multiple devices (up to 8) can connect to an S interface. So the U is like the ISDN "WAN" interface, while the S (which is a bus) is like the "LAN" interface. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sun Jan 24 10:50:14 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA04133 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:50:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hcsext.hcs.de (hcsext.hcs.de [194.123.40.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id KAA04126 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 10:50:11 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hm@hcs.de) Received: from hcswork.hcs.de([192.76.124.5]) (3110 bytes) by hcsext.hcs.de via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:49:26 +0100 (CET) (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1 built 1998-Dec-11) Received: by hcswork.hcs.de (Smail3.1.29.0 #12) id m104Ub7-00006RC; Sun, 24 Jan 99 19:49 MET Message-Id: From: hm@hcs.de (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: from Avalon Books at "Jan 24, 99 10:45:02 am" To: avalon@advicom.net (Avalon Books) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:49:25 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: hm@hcs.de Organization: HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From the keyboard of Avalon Books: > > Passive ISDN cards are dirt cheap over here, no second device is needed > > which consumes (more) power (than just a passive ISDN card in your box) > > and ISDN is a bit more than just doing IP over it here, something which > > is not possible at that extent with a TA or a router. And a passive ISDN > > card is _much_ more flexible than a router or TA ever could be: its much > > better suited to serve my play instinct ;-) > > More flexible? Hm... I would be interested in hearing a detailed > explanation for that. Its simple: a TA or router allows you to do only that things, the TA or router was designed to let you do. A passive ISDN card allows you to do everything ISDN allows you to do. Sidenote: there is an exception to what i just said. I know of one manu- facturer of ISDN routers who built a thing called "remote CAPI" into their routers, which allows you to access the ISDN by issuing CAPI messages over IP. If you want to know what CAPI is, look at www.capi.org. In case i were in the situation i was, when i started ISDN driver writing under FreeBSD, today, i would just buy such a device and done. > > Hopefully - and the code is already there - i4b will run with the existing > > PPP code, although i don't see the need: bonding two B-channels together > > does not make much sense here. > > Why not? Its too expensive (for me!) within the current pricing scheme over here, now forgive me that i don't explain our current pricing ... ;-) > transfers. The costs of using ISDN for voice communications are bad > enough without intentionally makeing it worse for myself. And the strange thing happening here is, that ISDN (voice) communication is cheaper than analog voice communication since the beginning of this year :-) The conditions under which it pays to use ISDN and/or to use features ISDN is able to provide are just _totally_ different in Europe and the US. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis Tel +49 40 559747-70 HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH Fax +49 40 559747-77 Oldesloer Strasse 97-99 Mail hm [at] hcs.de 22457 Hamburg WWW http://www.hcs.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sun Jan 24 11:22:17 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA07438 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:22:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aw.ivm.net (mail.ivm.net [195.78.161.2] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA07429 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 11:22:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ap@bnc.net) Received: from gemini.bnc.net (gemini.bnc.net [195.247.233.33]) by aw.ivm.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA30424; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:21:51 +0100 X-To: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from ap@localhost) by gemini.bnc.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id UAA24044; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:21:46 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ap) From: Achim Patzner Message-Id: <199901241921.UAA24044@gemini.bnc.net> Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: <199901241756.JAA28209@bubba.whistle.com> from Archie Cobbs at "Jan 24, 1999 9:56:47 am" To: archie@whistle.com (Archie Cobbs) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:21:46 +0100 (CET) Cc: stefhe@gmx.net, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > The line that comes to your house ends in a U interface. If you stick an > NT1 on it, then that converts the U into an T reference point which is the connection between NT1 and NT2. The NT2's other reference point is the > S interface. The difference between the > two is that only one device can connect to a U interface, whereas > multiple ISDN Terminal Equipment 1 (TE1) > devices (up to 8) can connect to an S interface if it is provisioned for that. There is a second type of S bus configured for permanent activation intended for telephony TAs. And behind this lies the real of the R reference point which connects non-digital devices (called TE2) via Terminal Adapters (TA) to the network. And now someone might tell me why the CCITT needs such a brain damaged vocabulary to describe the simple facts of life. Besides... no German ever saw an NT1 itself; ...T. is always terminating its lines using an S reference point. Noses. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sun Jan 24 16:37:35 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id QAA15762 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:37:35 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from ns1.yes.no (ns1.yes.no [195.204.136.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA15757 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:37:33 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from eivind@bitbox.follo.net) Received: from bitbox.follo.net (bitbox.follo.net [195.204.143.218]) by ns1.yes.no (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id BAA15209; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:37:20 +0100 (CET) Received: (from eivind@localhost) by bitbox.follo.net (8.8.8/8.8.6) id BAA17091; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:37:20 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:37:19 +0100 From: Eivind Eklund To: Archie Cobbs Cc: hm@hcs.de, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? Message-ID: <19990125013718.D10668@bitbox.follo.net> References: <199901232212.OAA19659@bubba.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901232212.OAA19659@bubba.whistle.com>; from Archie Cobbs on Sat, Jan 23, 1999 at 02:12:15PM -0800 Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Jan 23, 1999 at 02:12:15PM -0800, Archie Cobbs wrote: > This code would be perfect for use with ISDN... In fact, we've > already implemented it, but are using 3rd party ISDN code that > we can't publish. > > However, we can show you what the ISDN node API looks like. If you > implemented the same thing, then mpd (ie, our PPP daemon which is > already public) would suddenly start working over your ISDN code > as it does ours. Note that I already have patches for mpd to make it work over i4b as i4b is today ;-) I just have to clean them up and submit them; they're a bit too much of hack at the moment... Eivind. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sun Jan 24 19:46:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id TAA06829 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:46:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vespucci.advicom.net (vespucci.advicom.net [199.170.120.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA06824 for ; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 19:46:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avalon@vespucci.advicom.net) Received: from localhost (avalon@localhost) by vespucci.advicom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id VAA22783; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:46:13 -0600 (CST) X-Envelope-Recipient: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 21:46:13 -0600 (CST) From: Avalon Books To: Hellmuth Michaelis cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, 24 Jan 1999, Hellmuth Michaelis wrote: > > More flexible? Hm... I would be interested in hearing a detailed > > explanation for that. > > Its simple: a TA or router allows you to do only that things, the TA or > router was designed to let you do. A passive ISDN card allows you to do > everything ISDN allows you to do. Oh? So what does european ISDN offer that U.S. ISDN doesn't? So far, my TA allows me to use all of the features available from my Telco (and its a long list, I assure you). My engineering contact (who is reading this as I type it) informs me that from a "features" standpoint, european and U.S. ISDN systems are, in essence, identical... > Sidenote: there is an exception to what i just said. I know of one manu- > facturer of ISDN routers who built a thing called "remote CAPI" into their > routers, which allows you to access the ISDN by issuing CAPI messages over > IP. If you want to know what CAPI is, look at www.capi.org. In case i were > in the situation i was, when i started ISDN driver writing under FreeBSD, > today, i would just buy such a device and done. Hmmm... Interesting. I shall have to discuss this with my engineering contacts, though it sounds familiar. Actually, after browsing through the CAPI page, it looks like most of the things discussed are normally implemented as firmware (aka user-proof). Still, I will verify this before committing myself to any exact statement. > > > Hopefully - and the code is already there - i4b will run with the existing > > > PPP code, although i don't see the need: bonding two B-channels together > > > does not make much sense here. > > > > Why not? > > Its too expensive (for me!) within the current pricing scheme over here, now > forgive me that i don't explain our current pricing ... ;-) I understand. I begin to wonder if the people responsible for creating the pricing schemes for my Telco are under the influence mind-altering drugs... > > transfers. The costs of using ISDN for voice communications are bad > > enough without intentionally makeing it worse for myself. > > And the strange thing happening here is, that ISDN (voice) communication > is cheaper than analog voice communication since the beginning of this > year :-) I wish I could say the same. Though a single BRI is only slightly more expensive than a pair of analog lines--unless you go over the time limits. Then the additional taxes become painful, indeed. I have the misfortune to live in a state where there's no such thing as flat-rate ISDN (sigh). > The conditions under which it pays to use ISDN and/or to use features > ISDN is able to provide are just _totally_ different in Europe and the US. I'm not entirely sure I would agree with such a statement, but I'll take your word for it for now. Heh... Looks like I'll be pestering my friends at Alpha Telecom alot this next week (grin)... R. Pelletier Sys Admin, House Galiagante We are a Micro$oft-free site To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sun Jan 24 20:07:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA09133 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:07:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA09124; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:07:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA03906; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:06:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com( 207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V2.0) id xma003900; Sun, 24 Jan 99 20:06:52 -0800 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id UAA24401; Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:06:51 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199901250406.UAA24401@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: <19990125013718.D10668@bitbox.follo.net> from Eivind Eklund at "Jan 25, 99 01:37:19 am" To: eivind@FreeBSD.ORG (Eivind Eklund) Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:06:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: isdn@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Eivind Eklund writes: > On Sat, Jan 23, 1999 at 02:12:15PM -0800, Archie Cobbs wrote: > > This code would be perfect for use with ISDN... In fact, we've > > already implemented it, but are using 3rd party ISDN code that > > we can't publish. > > > > However, we can show you what the ISDN node API looks like. If you > > implemented the same thing, then mpd (ie, our PPP daemon which is > > already public) would suddenly start working over your ISDN code > > as it does ours. > > Note that I already have patches for mpd to make it work over i4b as > i4b is today ;-) I just have to clean them up and submit them; they're > a bit too much of hack at the moment... Eivund.. I should send you the latest version of mpd (if you're interested). Soon I'm going to release it, as it includes support for netgraph. Would you like a copy? I don't think very much has changed that would affect your patches.. though the separation between the main code and the device-specific code has changed a bit and gotten cleaner. I can also send you our ISDN mpd device type if you want (not part of the normal mpd since it doesn't work without the kernel ISDN stack -- our equivalent of i4b). What do you think of the idea of making i4b express itself as a netgraph node? This would be a good thing IMHO. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Mon Jan 25 00:55:07 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA13564 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:55:07 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hcsext.hcs.de (hcsext.hcs.de [194.123.40.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id AAA13558 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:55:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hm@hcs.de) Received: from hcswork.hcs.de([192.76.124.5]) (2060 bytes) by hcsext.hcs.de via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:54:27 +0100 (CET) (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1 built 1998-Dec-11) Received: by hcswork.hcs.de (Smail3.1.29.0 #12) id m104hmt-00003sC; Mon, 25 Jan 99 09:54 MET Message-Id: From: hm@hcs.de (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: from Avalon Books at "Jan 24, 99 09:46:13 pm" To: avalon@advicom.net (Avalon Books) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:54:27 +0100 (MET) Cc: hm@hcs.de, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: hm@hcs.de Organization: HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From the keyboard of Avalon Books: > > > More flexible? Hm... I would be interested in hearing a detailed > > > explanation for that. > > > > Its simple: a TA or router allows you to do only that things, the TA or > > router was designed to let you do. A passive ISDN card allows you to do > > everything ISDN allows you to do. > > Oh? So what does european ISDN offer that U.S. ISDN doesn't? So far, my > TA allows me to use all of the features available from my Telco (and its a > long list, I assure you). It has nothing to do with Europe/US differences. Read the (european) ISDN standards to get an impression what is possible on the D- and/or B-channels, there is much more possible than telephony and/or IP/PPP. Fax and Video are just two examples. As i said, a TA allows you to do just those (ISDN-) things which are supported by the TA's firmware. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis Tel +49 40 559747-70 HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH Fax +49 40 559747-77 Oldesloer Strasse 97-99 Mail hm [at] hcs.de 22457 Hamburg WWW http://www.hcs.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Mon Jan 25 02:45:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA26175 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:45:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtprtp.nortel.com (smtprtp.nortel.com [192.122.117.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA26169 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 02:45:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tsbarry@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from nnsgifd1.europe.nortel.com (actually 47.137.131.66) by smtprtp.nortel.com; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:44:29 -0500 Received: by nnsgifd1.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:44:28 -0000 Message-ID: <81C8165DD2A7D111AD700000F81F29CB02504A2B@nwcwi19.europe.nortel.com> From: "Barry Scott" To: "'Achim Patzner'" , freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: I4B support for US ISDN? Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 10:44:24 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Achim wrote: > And now someone might tell me why the CCITT needs such a brain damaged > vocabulary to describe the simple facts of life. Besides... no German ever > saw an NT1 itself; ...T. is always terminating its lines using an S > reference point. Maybe the facts are obvious to you. But would I understand them the same way? If not we cannot communicate. Much of the language of the CCITT is an attempt to be precise in specification. Barry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Mon Jan 25 03:12:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA28409 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 03:05:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aw.ivm.net (mail.ivm.net [195.78.161.2] (may be forged)) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA28400 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 03:05:34 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ap@bnc.net) Received: from gemini.bnc.net (gemini.bnc.net [195.247.233.33]) by aw.ivm.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA01997; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:05:27 +0100 X-To: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Received: (from ap@localhost) by gemini.bnc.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA71134; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:05:18 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ap) From: Achim Patzner Message-Id: <199901251105.MAA71134@gemini.bnc.net> Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: <81C8165DD2A7D111AD700000F81F29CB02504A2B@nwcwi19.europe.nortel.com> from Barry Scott at "Jan 25, 1999 10:44:24 am" To: tsbarry@nortelnetworks.com (Barry Scott) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:05:18 +0100 (CET) Cc: ap@bnc.net, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > > And now someone might tell me why the CCITT needs such a brain damaged > > vocabulary to describe the simple facts of life. > > Maybe the facts are obvious to you. But would I understand them the > same way? If not we cannot communicate. Much of the language of the > CCITT is an attempt to be precise in specification. Totally off-topic, but... This is not what I wanted to say... Let me try again: The entire civilized world would use the term "byte" for data words of 8 bits size. CCITT needede to coin the term "octets" to keep the French happy. The same about the term "reference point". And calling the equipment to connect non-ISDN devices to an S reference point "Terminal Adapter" was some kind of meanness too - at that time this term was already in use for totally diffenrent equipment. It's like IBM using EBCDIC . "We're the Borg. Prepare your dictionaries to be assimilated". I stumbled about that kind of "we don't really care" when I started working on an X.400/X.500 project a long tiome ago. And if you care for precise specifications... Yesterday I had to learn that IETF isn't much nicer than my scrutinizing Archie's original message (which I just did to remind people of CCITT's way of demanding "precision"). And obviously their papers are definitely easier to understand ynd readable without looking up words in the glossary all the time. Noses. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Mon Jan 25 03:56:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA03798 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 03:56:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgate.nortel.ca (mailgate.NortelNetworks.com [192.58.194.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA03793 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 03:56:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tsbarry@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from nnsgifd1.europe.nortel.com (actually 47.137.131.66) by mailgate.nortel.ca; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 06:53:13 -0500 Received: by nnsgifd1.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:53:11 -0000 Message-ID: <81C8165DD2A7D111AD700000F81F29CB02504A2C@nwcwi19.europe.nortel.com> From: "Barry Scott" To: "'Achim Patzner'" , "'freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: RE: I4B support for US ISDN? Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:53:08 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > Totally off-topic, but... One of the first computers I used was the DEC PDP-10 it allowed you to haves bytes from 1 to 36 bits each. That would be at the time that CCITT used octet. The CCITT would not have used byte as its did not mean 8 bits. TOday byte means 8 bits, (was byte a Borg invention along with EBCDIC?). BArry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Mon Jan 25 11:50:08 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id LAA00717 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:50:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA00667 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:50:04 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id LAA12512; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:49:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com( 207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V2.0) id xma012508; Mon, 25 Jan 99 11:49:40 -0800 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id LAA01978; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:49:39 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199901251949.LAA01978@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: from Hellmuth Michaelis at "Jan 25, 99 09:54:27 am" To: hm@hcs.de Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 11:49:39 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org The other day I promised to find out a list of U.S. ISDN specs. If anyone is interested send me email. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Mon Jan 25 17:03:38 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA16721 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:03:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vespucci.advicom.net (vespucci.advicom.net [199.170.120.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA16714 for ; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 17:03:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avalon@vespucci.advicom.net) Received: from localhost (avalon@localhost) by vespucci.advicom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA17774; Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:03:30 -0600 (CST) X-Envelope-Recipient: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:03:30 -0600 (CST) From: Avalon Books To: Hellmuth Michaelis cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, 25 Jan 1999, Hellmuth Michaelis wrote: > > Oh? So what does european ISDN offer that U.S. ISDN doesn't? So far, my > > TA allows me to use all of the features available from my Telco (and its a > > long list, I assure you). > > It has nothing to do with Europe/US differences. Read the (european) ISDN > standards to get an impression what is possible on the D- and/or B-channels, > there is much more possible than telephony and/or IP/PPP. Fax and Video are > just two examples. As i said, a TA allows you to do just those (ISDN-) things > which are supported by the TA's firmware. Actually, I have already reviewed the standards. Hence the following: I beg to differ. The differences between our ISDN standards do not show one to be "more capable/versatile/desirable" than the other. That's just hardware/firmware implementation. The services themselves are the equivilant. And currently, voice and IP make up the vast majority of telecommuncations traffic world-wide, regardless of network type. The TA is just an interface. And not a very smart one at that. The firmware is there to make sure everything is framed up the way its supposed to. To a TA, its just data, and that's all. As long as its framed correctly, it couldn't care less about content or purpose. It does exactly what its told, as it is basically a transparent device. I'll agree that a router is a bit more limited, but it was intended for a more narrowly focused market. And when you need a router, there isn't much in the way of good substitute, though we in the UNIX world do have something of an advantage--we almost always have more than one way to do something. I will also agree that many Telco's do not implement everything, and that many have incorrectly implemented many of the thing that we expect as part of ISDN service. But there's not much we can do when we know more about this subject than the service techs that are sent out to help us. Just last week I was showing one of Bellsouth's feild tech how to use his Protocol Analyzer, because Bellsouth was too lazy to train him properly. R. Pelletier Sys Admin, House Galiagante We are a Micro$oft-free site To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Tue Jan 26 10:09:30 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA09534 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:09:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mx1.dmz.fedex.com (mx1.dmz.fedex.com [199.81.194.37]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA09383 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 10:09:14 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from wam@mohawk.dpd.fedex.com) Received: from mx2.zmd.fedex.com (sendmail@mx2.zmd.fedex.com [199.82.159.11]) by mx1.dmz.fedex.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA26610 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:09:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from s07.sa.fedex.com (root@s07.sa.fedex.com [199.81.124.17]) by mx2.zmd.fedex.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA27365 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:09:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from mohawk.dpd.fedex.com (mohawk.dpd.fedex.com [199.81.74.121]) by s07.sa.fedex.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id MAA12302; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:09:08 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199901261809.MAA12302@s07.sa.fedex.com> To: Martin Husemann cc: hm@hcs.de, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-reply-to: Message id <199901240926.KAA03402@rumolt.teuto.de> Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:09:08 -0600 From: William McVey Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Martin Husemann wrote: >> What >> is needed is a FreeBSD machine with a passive card using the standard >> Siemens chipset connected to an ISDN S0 bus or U ref point. Hmm.. I guess my terminology in my initial email has proven to be incorrect. I have Sportster ISDN card (an ISA card which apparently is a passive ISDN device) inside a FreeBSD 2.2.8 device. For purposes of testing, I could probably arrange a week or two where I could have another, perhaps even 2 more, of these cards installed into hardware on my premesis. As far as what kind of connection I have, I'm clueless. All I know is that I connect the ISDN card into the wall via a standard category 5 cable with RJ45 connectors. The connection is at my house and is targetted for residential use. It's been asked why I would want to use isdn cards and i4b when ISDN routers or serial devices have proven to work reliably in the US. It's primarly that of out of pocket cost and FreeBSD advocacy here. My employer has bought a large number of Sportster ISDN cards for use in connecting to our corporate network. There is a core group of FreeBSD users who have bought their own ISDN router/serial-ta (or simply used standard modem lines); however, FreeBSD would be much more well received here if it supported this one piece of equipment. It's particularly agravating to have hardware which is only usable by Windows. >The ideal setup would be two machines at an S0 bus, three already supported >cards and the special cabling to run isdntrace in analyzer mode on one >of the machines. I don't know if such cabling could be done for an U ref >point Apparently from followup emails, it looks like I most likely have a U ref point. Does this mean we are hosed, or can we accomplish the necessary debugging with just the U interface? Hellmuth Michaelis wrote: >2) What are the the Part-, Order- or Standard numbers for the > description of the D-channel layer one, two and three for the > protocol answered by (1) and where can i get a copy of them > (without paying $$$) ? Archie Cobb apparently has found some of the specs. Additionally, if there are technical standards which can only be found by paying for, please let me know. Buying these references for the betterment of the project would defintly fall under the catch-all phrase, "Let me know if there is something I can do to help" that I sent in my original mail. -- William To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Tue Jan 26 17:43:01 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id RAA04539 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:43:01 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail.vr.IN-Berlin.DE (gnu.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id RAA04532 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:42:57 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from nortobor.nostromo.in-berlin.de!ripley@servicia.in-berlin.de) Received: from uriela.in-berlin.de (IDENT:root@servicia.in-berlin.de [192.109.42.145]) by mail.vr.IN-Berlin.DE (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA26771 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:42:54 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from nortobor.nostromo.in-berlin.de!ripley@servicia.in-berlin.de) Received: by uriela.in-berlin.de (Smail-3.2.0.101 1997-Dec-17 #1) id m105L8Y-000VXuC; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:55:26 +0100 (CET) Received: (from ripley@localhost) by nortobor.nostromo.in-berlin.de (8.8.7/8.8.7) id CAA15406 for freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:42:17 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ripley) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 02:42:16 +0100 From: "H. Eckert" To: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? Message-ID: <19990127024215.A15392@nortobor.nostromo.in-berlin.de> References: <199901240926.KAA03402@rumolt.teuto.de> <199901261809.MAA12302@s07.sa.fedex.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <199901261809.MAA12302@s07.sa.fedex.com>; from William McVey on Tue, Jan 26, 1999 at 12:09:08PM -0600 Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Quoting William McVey (wam@sa.fedex.com): > I have Sportster ISDN card (an ISA card which apparently is a passive > ISDN device) inside a FreeBSD 2.2.8 device. Please take a close look and cite the chips' labels. > All I know is that I connect the ISDN card into the wall via a > standard category 5 cable with RJ45 connectors. The connection is at > my house and is targetted for residential use. Sounds pretty muche like S0 to me (8pin RJ45 with 4wire cable) but then I've never seen a US style U-interface so far. What I know of the U-side of things is a 2wire cable that sticks into NTBA. > FreeBSD would be much more well received here if it supported this > one piece of equipment. It's particularly agravating to have > hardware which is only usable by Windows. It may very well be the case that the cards are already more-or-less supported. This doesn't help you a lot since even if you can get your BSD machine to talk to the hardware, it won't communicate with your telco's side. Greetings, Ripley (sitting on the user side of things here) -- H. Eckert, 10777 Berlin, Germany, http://www.in-berlin.de/User/nostromo/ ISO 8859-1: Ä=Ae, Ö=Oe, Ü=Ue, ä=ae, ö=oe, ü=ue, ß=sz. "(Technobabbel)" (Jetrel) - "Müssen wir uns diesen Schwachsinn wirklich anhören?" (Neelix) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Tue Jan 26 18:11:02 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA07603 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:11:02 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from bitbucket.extern.uniface.nl (nettle.uniface.nl [193.78.88.130]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA07597 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:11:00 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from bert_driehuis@nl.compuware.com) Received: (from smtpd@localhost) by bitbucket.extern.uniface.nl (8.7.6/8.7.3) id DAA24942; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:10:50 +0100 (MET) Received: from dewmoth.nl.compuware.com(172.16.16.49) via SMTP by recyclebin.nl.compuware.com, id smtpd024293; Wed Jan 27 03:10:41 1999 Received: from dewmoth (dewmoth.nl.compuware.com [172.16.16.49]) by dewmoth.nl.compuware.com (8.6.9/961125) with SMTP id DAA27085; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:10:39 +0100 Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:10:37 +0100 (MET) From: Bert Driehuis To: "H. Eckert" cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: <19990127024215.A15392@nortobor.nostromo.in-berlin.de> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, H. Eckert wrote: > > All I know is that I connect the ISDN card into the wall via a > > standard category 5 cable with RJ45 connectors. The connection is at > > my house and is targetted for residential use. > > Sounds pretty muche like S0 to me (8pin RJ45 with 4wire cable) > but then I've never seen a US style U-interface so far. What I > know of the U-side of things is a 2wire cable that sticks into > NTBA. Actually, the US ISDN devices I've seen use the same RJ45 connector for the U interface that European ISDN device use for the S0 interface. All of this of course just adds to the confusion, as the connector doesn't tell you whether or not the NT1 is integrated or not. The US equipment I've seen does label the connector "U", so looking at that might help. I seem to recall that US ISDN devices call the S0 interface "S/T", but don't take my word for it. I'm a European. Cheers, -- Bert Bert Driehuis, MIS -- bert_driehuis@nl.compuware.com -- +31-20-3116119 The grand leap of the whale up the Fall of Niagara is esteemed, by all who have seen it, as one of the finest spectacles in nature. -- Benjamin Franklin. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Tue Jan 26 18:45:12 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA11892 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:45:12 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vespucci.advicom.net (vespucci.advicom.net [199.170.120.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA11887; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:45:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avalon@vespucci.advicom.net) Received: from localhost (avalon@localhost) by vespucci.advicom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA01613; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:44:59 -0600 (CST) X-Envelope-Recipient: freebsd-isdn@freebsd.org Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:44:59 -0600 (CST) From: Avalon Books To: freebsd-hardware@FreeBSD.ORG cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Up and coming support page for ISDN Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org This message is directed towards North American FreeBSD users who are currently using ISDN with their systems. Due to an apparent lack of support for North American ISDN in the FreeBSD community, myself and a fellow telecommunications expert will be starting the Unofficial North American FreeBSD ISDN Support Page--and we need your help to fill this void in our support network. We need detailed information from current North American ISDN subscribers on *exactly* what equipment you are using, *exactly* how you set it up, and why you chose the hardware you use. Terminal adapters, routers, whatever--it doesn't matter. These documents will be posted on our page to assist others in need of either technical support or those contemplating an upgrade to ISDN, and need to know what works (and what doesn't). The authors will also be making themselves available to answer questions, etc. Full credit will be giving for all submissions. And let us know if you want your email address included for questions (if not, we will omit them in order to prevent unwanted mail). Also, any experiences relating to hardware that *didn't* work could prove helpful, so feel free to include such material if you wish. As we will also be including links to manufacturer's sites, suggestions for new links are also appreciated. Note, however, that we will be orienting this page towards products available in the North American market, and suggestions should be tempered accordingly. This support page will be put on-line as soon as we have enough material to do so. The more material I get, the more quickly this page will spring into existance. Please mail me directly with any material you wish to submit. Thank you in advance for your help. --R. Pelletier (avalon@advicom.net) Sys Admin, House Galiagante We are a Micro$oft-free site To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Tue Jan 26 18:56:43 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA13009 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:56:43 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from vespucci.advicom.net (vespucci.advicom.net [199.170.120.42]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA13004 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:56:41 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from avalon@vespucci.advicom.net) Received: from localhost (avalon@localhost) by vespucci.advicom.net (8.8.8/8.8.5) with ESMTP id UAA03770; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:56:36 -0600 (CST) X-Envelope-Recipient: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:56:36 -0600 (CST) From: Avalon Books To: Bert Driehuis cc: "H. Eckert" , freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, 27 Jan 1999, Bert Driehuis wrote: > All of this of course just adds to the confusion, as the connector doesn't > tell you whether or not the NT1 is integrated or not. The US equipment > I've seen does label the connector "U", so looking at that might help. I > seem to recall that US ISDN devices call the S0 interface "S/T", but don't > take my word for it. I'm a European. Correct. Our ST interface is RJ-45 only. But the U interface can be either RJ-11/RG-59 (4-pin modular) *or* RJ-45 (8-pin modular)-- manufacturers over here can't seem to make up their minds which one they like more, though most TA's and router are equipped with both U and ST interfaces, and many are equipped with POTS ports (Plain Old Telephone System) for analog devices. The U interface is right off the switch--no termination or anything, and requires an integrated NT-1 to use. The ST (SO) interface and POTS ports are (essentially) just like European version. R. Pelletier Sys Admin, House Galiagante We are a Micro$oft-free site To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Tue Jan 26 20:23:10 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id UAA22362 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:23:10 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id UAA22357 for ; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:23:09 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id UAA09017; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:22:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com( 207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V2.0) id xma009015; Tue, 26 Jan 99 20:22:25 -0800 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id UAA10140; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:22:24 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199901270422.UAA10140@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: <19990127024215.A15392@nortobor.nostromo.in-berlin.de> from "H. Eckert" at "Jan 27, 99 02:42:16 am" To: ripley@nostromo.in-berlin.de (H. Eckert) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 20:22:24 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org H. Eckert writes: > Quoting William McVey (wam@sa.fedex.com): > > I have Sportster ISDN card (an ISA card which apparently is a passive > > ISDN device) inside a FreeBSD 2.2.8 device. > > Please take a close look and cite the chips' labels. Yeah... :-) > > All I know is that I connect the ISDN card into the wall via a > > standard category 5 cable with RJ45 connectors. The connection is at > > my house and is targetted for residential use. > > Sounds pretty muche like S0 to me (8pin RJ45 with 4wire cable) > but then I've never seen a US style U-interface so far. What I > know of the U-side of things is a 2wire cable that sticks into > NTBA. If you live in the US and you got an ISDN line from the phone company, and didn't purchase any thing else (like a little box called an NT1), then you have a U-interface. Usually the telco (actually, whoever you hire to do your inside wiring) wires up an RJ-45 if it's a new line. But if they're reusing and existing twisted pair that already terminates at an RJ-11 jack, they might just use that. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Tue Jan 26 21:37:13 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id VAA29801 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:37:13 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from picalon.gun.de (picalon.gun.de [192.109.159.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id VAA29795; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:37:08 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from andreas@klemm.gtn.com) Received: from klemm.gtn.com (pppak04.gtn.com [194.231.123.169]) by picalon.gun.de (8.8.6/8.8.6) with ESMTP id GAA18203; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:37:06 +0100 (MET) Received: (from andreas@localhost) by klemm.gtn.com (8.9.2/8.9.2) id GAA03639; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:11:09 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from andreas) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:11:09 +0100 From: Andreas Klemm To: Archie Cobbs Cc: Eivind Eklund , isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? Message-ID: <19990127061109.A3340@titan.klemm.gtn.com> References: <19990125013718.D10668@bitbox.follo.net> <199901250406.UAA24401@bubba.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: <199901250406.UAA24401@bubba.whistle.com>; from Archie Cobbs on Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 08:06:51PM -0800 X-Disclaimer: A free society is one where it is safe to be unpopular X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 3.0-STABLE SMP Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 08:06:51PM -0800, Archie Cobbs wrote: > What do you think of the idea of making i4b express itself as a > netgraph node? This would be a good thing IMHO. Hi Archie, what is netgraph ? -- Andreas Klemm http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~andreas What gives you 90% more speed, for example, in kernel compilation ? http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/~fsmp/SMP/akgraph-a/graph1.html "NT = Not Today" (Maggie Biggs) ``powered by FreeBSD SMP'' To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Tue Jan 26 22:04:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id WAA02074 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:04:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA02069; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:04:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id WAA09893; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:04:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com( 207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V2.0) id xma009891; Tue, 26 Jan 99 22:03:51 -0800 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id WAA10563; Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:03:51 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199901270603.WAA10563@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: <19990127061109.A3340@titan.klemm.gtn.com> from Andreas Klemm at "Jan 27, 99 06:11:09 am" To: andreas@klemm.gtn.com (Andreas Klemm) Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 22:03:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: archie@whistle.com, eivind@FreeBSD.ORG, isdn@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Andreas Klemm writes: > On Sun, Jan 24, 1999 at 08:06:51PM -0800, Archie Cobbs wrote: > > What do you think of the idea of making i4b express itself as a > > netgraph node? This would be a good thing IMHO. > > Hi Archie, > > what is netgraph ? Netgraph is a networking infrastructure we developed at Whistle. It's been very successful in making it easy for us to implement lots of different protocols, etc. Basically you have processing nodes that connect together (via "hooks") to form a graph. Data flows along edges in the graph, and each node does whatever.. The "web site" (actually an FTP site) is here: ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/archie/netgraph/index.html The blurb gives basic overview, describes, how it works, etc. We have our own ISDN implementation that expresses the BRI as a netgraph node. ISDN is a natural application for netgraph. We use a modified mpd (soon to be released) to do PPP. I'd imagine an ISDN system could be structured something like this: o A "BRI" node type expressed by any BRI hardware. Properties.. - Three hooks, "B1", "B2", and "D" - Control message support for PH_ACTIVATE_REQ and PH_DEACTIVATE_REQ o A "Q.921" node type to handle data link operations - A "downstream" hook (this would connect to the "D" hook above) - Upstream hooks for multiple TEI's (connecting to one or more Q.931 nodes) o Several different "Q.931" node types, one for each switch type (or possibly a single node type supporting multiple switch types). These would support control messages corresponding to an application level call control.. ie, dial, answer, hangup, etc. Our existing netgraph node implements a control message API like this. Our current implementation glomms all of the above into a single node, but there's no reason you couldn't separate it out. Then any ISDN hardware device driver that implemented the "BRI" node type could readily be used, etc.. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Wed Jan 27 03:21:05 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA29942 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:21:05 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from aw.ivm.net (mail.ivm.net [62.204.1.4]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA29933; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:20:59 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ap@bnc.net) Received: from gemini.bnc.net (gemini.bnc.net [195.247.233.33]) by aw.ivm.net (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA00702; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:20:36 +0100 X-To: freebsd-isdn@freebsd.org Received: (from ap@localhost) by gemini.bnc.net (8.9.2/8.9.1) id MAA82314; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:19:53 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from ap) From: Achim Patzner Message-Id: <199901271119.MAA82314@gemini.bnc.net> Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? In-Reply-To: <199901261809.MAA12302@s07.sa.fedex.com> from William McVey at "Jan 26, 1999 12: 9: 8 pm" To: wam@sa.fedex.com (William McVey) Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:19:53 +0100 (CET) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG, jhk@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL43 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Ok, I give in. I've got an old TELES 16.2 and an AVM Fritz! hanging around on my shelves; I'd be willing to donate them to FreeBSD Inc. which in turn should give them to someone willing to provide a host for testing/developing NI-1 drivers for FreeBSD iff Hellmuth wants to spend time on it. Any takers? If I'm looking for it long and hard I'd might even turn up yet another AVM. Hellmuth? (maybe you should try taking a look at AVM's NI-1 driver...) Noses. (Copy to jhk so he knows that FreeBSD Inc. will be proud owner of real hysterical^Whistorical equipment. One day someone should open a museum... I've still got one of the first 50 80286 processors that were produced by Intel; it's totally buggy and wouldn't boot an AT but i does indeed add and subtract.) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Wed Jan 27 03:34:32 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA01348 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:34:32 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from theoryx.cs.uni-bonn.de (theory.cs.uni-bonn.de [131.220.4.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA01330; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 03:34:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from ignatios@cs.uni-bonn.de) Received: from cauchy.cs.uni-bonn.de (cauchy [131.220.4.169]) by theoryx.cs.uni-bonn.de (8.9.1a/8.9.1) with ESMTP id MAA25348; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:34:25 +0100 (MET) Received: (from ignatios@localhost) by cauchy.cs.uni-bonn.de (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA08070; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:34:24 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <19990127123423.A8025@cs.uni-bonn.de> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:34:23 +0100 From: Ignatios Souvatzis Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG, jhk@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? References: <199901261809.MAA12302@s07.sa.fedex.com> <199901271119.MAA82314@gemini.bnc.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.91.2i In-Reply-To: <199901271119.MAA82314@gemini.bnc.net>; from Achim Patzner on Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 12:19:53PM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Wed, Jan 27, 1999 at 12:19:53PM +0100, Achim Patzner wrote: > (Copy to jhk so he knows that FreeBSD Inc. will be proud owner of real > hysterical^Whistorical equipment. One day someone should open a museum... > I've still got one of the first 50 80286 processors that were produced by > Intel; it's totally buggy and wouldn't boot an AT but i does indeed add and > subtract.) It does subtract? What luxury! -is To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Wed Jan 27 10:43:44 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id KAA22367 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:43:44 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gateway.toti.est.is (toti.est.is [194.144.208.13]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA22359 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:43:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from totii@est.is) Received: from asus (asus.toti.est.is [192.168.255.2]) by gateway.toti.est.is (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id SAA92623; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:43:25 GMT (envelope-from totii@est.is) Message-ID: <36AFCEC4.C8B6E315@est.is> Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:43:16 -0800 From: Thordur Ivarsson Reply-To: thivars@est.is X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Archie Cobbs CC: "H. Eckert" , freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <199901270422.UAA10140@bubba.whistle.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Archie Cobbs wrote: > > H. Eckert writes: > > Quoting William McVey (wam@sa.fedex.com): > > > I have Sportster ISDN card (an ISA card which apparently is a passive > > > ISDN device) inside a FreeBSD 2.2.8 device. > > > > Please take a close look and cite the chips' labels. > > Yeah... :-) > > > > All I know is that I connect the ISDN card into the wall via a > > > standard category 5 cable with RJ45 connectors. The connection is at > > > my house and is targetted for residential use. > > > > Sounds pretty muche like S0 to me (8pin RJ45 with 4wire cable) > > but then I've never seen a US style U-interface so far. What I > > know of the U-side of things is a 2wire cable that sticks into > > NTBA. > > If you live in the US and you got an ISDN line from the phone > company, and didn't purchase any thing else (like a little box > called an NT1), then you have a U-interface. > > Usually the telco (actually, whoever you hire to do your inside > wiring) wires up an RJ-45 if it's a new line. But if > they're reusing and existing twisted pair that already terminates > at an RJ-11 jack, they might just use that. > > -Archie I heard rumor here in Iceland that some users connects with U interface and others with S0 interface. If you need very many basic rate lines and are willing to use U interface, you can, then telco does not install NT boxes. Þórður To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Wed Jan 27 12:15:48 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA04243 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:15:48 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from peedub.muc.de (newpc.muc.ditec.de [194.120.126.33]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA04235 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:15:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from garyj@peedub.muc.de) Received: from peedub.muc.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by peedub.muc.de (8.9.2/8.6.9) with ESMTP id VAA36855 for ; Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:12:04 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <199901272012.VAA36855@peedub.muc.de> X-Mailer: exmh version 2.0.2 2/24/98 To: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: I4B support for US ISDN? Reply-To: Gary Jennejohn In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 24 Jan 1999 20:06:51 PST." <199901250406.UAA24401@bubba.whistle.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 21:12:04 +0100 From: Gary Jennejohn Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Archie Cobbs writes: [big snip] >I can also send you our ISDN mpd device type if you want >(not part of the normal mpd since it doesn't work without the >kernel ISDN stack -- our equivalent of i4b). > >What do you think of the idea of making i4b express itself as a >netgraph node? This would be a good thing IMHO. > >-Archie doesn't look like anyone's responded to this yet. I think the idea of moving isdn4bsd to netgraph is neat. The question is, what does the father of isdn4bsd (Hellmuth Michaelis) think ? I'd respect his opinion on this. I know one of his TODOs is to implement isdn4bsd using message queues. This might be made unnecessary by using netgraph. I'd like to see the mpd stuff myself. Archie also writes: > The other day I promised to find out a list of U.S. ISDN specs. > If anyone is interested send me email. > I'm also interested in the list. --- Gary Jennejohn Home - garyj@muc.de Work - garyj@fkr.dec.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Thu Jan 28 01:23:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id BAA14122 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:23:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hcsext.hcs.de (hcsext.hcs.de [194.123.40.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id BAA14109 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 01:23:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hm@hcs.de) Received: from hcswork.hcs.de([192.76.124.5]) (3369 bytes) by hcsext.hcs.de via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:23:40 +0100 (CET) (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1 built 1998-Dec-11) Received: by hcswork.hcs.de (Smail3.1.29.0 #12) id m105nfo-00006RC; Thu, 28 Jan 99 10:23 MET Message-Id: From: hm@hcs.de (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: i4b and netgraph (was: I4B support for US ISDN?) In-Reply-To: <199901272012.VAA36855@peedub.muc.de> from Gary Jennejohn at "Jan 27, 99 09:12:04 pm" To: garyj@muc.de Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 10:23:40 +0100 (MET) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: hm@hcs.de Organization: HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From the keyboard of Gary Jennejohn: > >What do you think of the idea of making i4b express itself as a > >netgraph node? This would be a good thing IMHO. > > > >-Archie > > I think the idea of moving isdn4bsd to netgraph is neat. The question is, > what does the father of isdn4bsd (Hellmuth Michaelis) think ? I'd respect > his opinion on this. I know one of his TODOs is to implement isdn4bsd using > message queues. This might be made unnecessary by using netgraph. Some random thoughts about that: - as long as netgraph is not a standard part of FreeBSD i don't think its a good idea to move i4b to netgraph. - currently, i4b is relatively self-contained and runs under all BSD's (i've got even BSD/OS patches for it). Going to netgraph seems to imply a then necessary namechange from isdn4bsd to isdn4freebsd (or to package netgraph into the i4b distribution which i don't like at all). - as far as i understood the netgraph docs, they also use function calls and _no_ message queues for interlayer communication. So going to netgraph would not solve the mentioned problem. BTW: i once asked Terry about the queue/function tradeoffs when that was discussed on the mailinglist and got no reply. - The ISDN model has a LME (layer management entity) connected to all layers using a different path to communicate than the interlayer communication mechanism, and i learned that implementing this is a must. I don't see how this is being done using netgraph. - More, i currently don't see how the isdnd's functionality is brought to netgraph. - To my astonishment, i have read in the netgraph docs that Whistle plans to netgraph-enable the i4b ISDN driver code; i wasn't aware of that yet since Whistle seem to have its own ISDN stack and wasn't interested in i4b any longer after a short period of interest long time ago. - The last thing i personally need are 2 versions of i4b, one netgraphized and one not netgraphized. - There is much more to to do to functionally enhance i4b, to make it more robust and to fix some bugs in it and i don't have an idea if net- graphizing i4b brings us more forward with these issues since my time budget is clearly limited. In a word, i'm a bit sceptical. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis Tel +49 40 559747-70 HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH Fax +49 40 559747-77 Oldesloer Strasse 97-99 Mail hm [at] hcs.de 22457 Hamburg WWW http://www.hcs.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Thu Jan 28 03:41:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id DAA02643 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:41:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from smtprtp.nortel.com (smtprtp.nortel.com [192.122.117.66]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id DAA02628 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 03:41:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tsbarry@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from nnsgifd1.europe.nortel.com (actually 47.137.131.66) by smtprtp.nortel.com; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 06:40:41 -0500 Received: by nnsgifd1.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:40:41 -0000 Message-ID: <81C8165DD2A7D111AD700000F81F29CB02504A34@nwcwi19.europe.nortel.com> From: "Barry Scott" To: "'freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG'" Subject: RE: i4b and netgraph (was: I4B support for US ISDN?) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:40:38 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > - as far as i understood the netgraph docs, they also use function calls > and _no_ message queues for interlayer communication. So going > to netgraph would not solve the mentioned problem. BTW: i once > asked Terry about the queue/function tradeoffs when that was > discussed on the mailinglist and got no reply. Having worked on both function call and queued netgraph like software I have to agree that function call is a major design bug in netgraph. I'm sure netgraph uses direct call to get speed. But in DEC we benchmarked queuing vs. direct call and there is no advantage. On the other hand the queuing gives many advantages. Very few reentrancy problems. Never overflow the stack. Simpler software - faster in design, implementation and debug etc... BArry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Thu Jan 28 12:06:47 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05072 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:06:47 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA05067 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:06:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id MAA08518; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:01:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com( 207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V2.0) id xma008509; Thu, 28 Jan 99 12:01:31 -0800 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id MAA03370; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:01:31 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199901282001.MAA03370@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: i4b and netgraph (was: I4B support for US ISDN?) In-Reply-To: <81C8165DD2A7D111AD700000F81F29CB02504A34@nwcwi19.europe.nortel.com> from Barry Scott at "Jan 28, 99 11:40:38 am" To: tsbarry@nortelnetworks.com (Barry Scott) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:01:31 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Barry Scott writes: > > - as far as i understood the netgraph docs, they also use function calls > > and _no_ message queues for interlayer communication. So going > > to netgraph would not solve the mentioned problem. BTW: i once > > asked Terry about the queue/function tradeoffs when that was > > discussed on the mailinglist and got no reply. > > Having worked on both function call and queued netgraph like > software I have to agree that function call is a major design > bug in netgraph. > > I'm sure netgraph uses direct call to get speed. But in DEC we > benchmarked queuing vs. direct call and there is no advantage. Hang on you two! Netgraph supports queueing!! In fact, it must if you want some nodes to run at other than splnet(). -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Thu Jan 28 12:09:51 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id MAA05493 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:09:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA05488 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:09:50 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id MAA08627; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:09:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com( 207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V2.0) id xma008623; Thu, 28 Jan 99 12:09:38 -0800 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id MAA03412; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:09:37 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199901282009.MAA03412@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: i4b and netgraph (was: I4B support for US ISDN?) In-Reply-To: from Hellmuth Michaelis at "Jan 28, 99 10:23:40 am" To: hm@hcs.de Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 12:09:37 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hellmuth Michaelis writes: > - as long as netgraph is not a standard part of FreeBSD i don't think its > a good idea to move i4b to netgraph. We hope it will become standard someday... > - currently, i4b is relatively self-contained and runs under all BSD's (i've > got even BSD/OS patches for it). Going to netgraph seems to imply > a then necessary namechange from isdn4bsd to isdn4freebsd (or to > package netgraph into the i4b distribution which i don't like at all). Becoming netgraph compatible does not imply losing the ability to run in normal mode... doing this would imply some #ifdef NETGRAPH conditional code though. > - as far as i understood the netgraph docs, they also use function calls > and _no_ message queues for interlayer communication. So going > to netgraph would not solve the mentioned problem. BTW: i once > asked Terry about the queue/function tradeoffs when that was > discussed on the mailinglist and got no reply. This is incorrect -- netgraph supports queueing. > - The ISDN model has a LME (layer management entity) connected to all > layers using a different path to communicate than the interlayer > communication mechanism, and i learned that implementing this is > a must. I don't see how this is being done using netgraph. The LME would send and receive the appropriate control messgages to each of the nodes. > - More, i currently don't see how the isdnd's functionality is brought > to netgraph. I'm unfamiliar with what isdnd does.. but there's nothing in netgraph that you couldn't do from a user mode daemon if you needed or wanted to. > - To my astonishment, i have read in the netgraph docs that Whistle > plans to netgraph-enable the i4b ISDN driver code; i wasn't > aware of that yet since Whistle seem to have its own ISDN stack > and wasn't interested in i4b any longer after a short period of > interest long time ago. That wording is misleading.. we don't have any plans to convert i4b. What I meant was that it would make for a nice project. I'll change the wording. > - The last thing i personally need are 2 versions of i4b, one netgraphized > and one not netgraphized. I don't blame you there :-) Though the differences could be localized to a few key macros. The message based architecture of ISDN and the graph nature of netgraph are very similar. > - There is much more to to do to functionally enhance i4b, to make it more > robust and to fix some bugs in it and i don't have an idea if net- > graphizing i4b brings us more forward with these issues since my > time budget is clearly limited. > > In a word, i'm a bit sceptical. I respect your priorities. I think a netgraph version of ISDN would be nice, time and motivation permitting. I'm not really arguing anything stronger than that. -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Thu Jan 28 13:07:45 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA16026 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:07:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from hcsext.hcs.de (hcsext.hcs.de [194.123.40.2]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id NAA16016 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:07:40 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from hm@hcs.de) Received: from hcswork.hcs.de([192.76.124.5]) (1727 bytes) by hcsext.hcs.de via sendmail with P:smtp/R:inet_hosts/T:smtp (sender: ) id for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:07:38 +0100 (CET) (Smail-3.2.0.104 1998-Nov-20 #1 built 1998-Dec-11) Received: by hcswork.hcs.de (Smail3.1.29.0 #12) id m105yey-00003OC; Thu, 28 Jan 99 22:07 MET Message-Id: From: hm@hcs.de (Hellmuth Michaelis) Subject: Re: i4b and netgraph (was: I4B support for US ISDN?) In-Reply-To: <199901282001.MAA03370@bubba.whistle.com> from Archie Cobbs at "Jan 28, 99 12:01:31 pm" To: archie@whistle.com (Archie Cobbs) Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 22:07:32 +0100 (MET) Cc: tsbarry@nortelnetworks.com, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Reply-To: hm@hcs.de Organization: HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL39 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org >From the keyboard of Archie Cobbs: > Hang on you two! Netgraph supports queueing!! Ok ok ... :-) When reading ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/archie/netgraph/man/netgraph.4.html, its easy to get that wrong impression: In order to minimize latency, all netgraph operations are functional. ^^^ That is, data and control messages are delivered by making function calls rather than by using queues and mailboxes. I'll have a more detailed look at that. hellmuth -- Hellmuth Michaelis Tel +49 40 559747-70 HCS Hanseatischer Computerservice GmbH Fax +49 40 559747-77 Oldesloer Strasse 97-99 Mail hm [at] hcs.de 22457 Hamburg WWW http://www.hcs.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Thu Jan 28 13:16:27 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17732 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:16:27 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17727 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:16:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id NAA09611; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com( 207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V2.0) id xma009608; Thu, 28 Jan 99 13:15:57 -0800 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id NAA03956; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:15:57 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199901282115.NAA03956@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: i4b and netgraph (was: I4B support for US ISDN?) In-Reply-To: from Hellmuth Michaelis at "Jan 28, 99 10:07:32 pm" To: hm@hcs.de Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:15:57 -0800 (PST) Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com (Julian Elischer) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hellmuth Michaelis writes: > When reading ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/archie/netgraph/man/netgraph.4.html, > its easy to get that wrong impression: > > In order to minimize latency, all netgraph operations are functional. > ^^^ > That is, data and control messages are delivered by making function calls > rather than by using queues and mailboxes. Yes, that's misleading... I've fixed it. Actually, it's not completely the way you want it yet. As it stands now, when you send an mbuf, you have the option of either sending it directly (ie, functionally) or sending it by queueing it for delivery later. However, there's no way as the *receiving node* to say, "I want all data sent to me to be delivered by qeueuing". So all sending nodes would have to "cooperate". This ability would be easy to add and something we'll probably do now that you've pointed it out. :-) -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Thu Jan 28 14:30:46 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id OAA27096 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:30:46 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id OAA27090 for ; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:30:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id OAA16857; Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:28:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from current1.whistle.com(207.76.205.22) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpdw16834; Thu Jan 28 22:28:15 1999 Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:27:46 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer To: Archie Cobbs cc: hm@hcs.de, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: i4b and netgraph (was: I4B support for US ISDN?) In-Reply-To: <199901282115.NAA03956@bubba.whistle.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org It's a dead snap.. On Thu, 28 Jan 1999, Archie Cobbs wrote: > Hellmuth Michaelis writes: > > When reading ftp://ftp.whistle.com/pub/archie/netgraph/man/netgraph.4.html, > > its easy to get that wrong impression: > > > > In order to minimize latency, all netgraph operations are functional. > > ^^^ > > That is, data and control messages are delivered by making function calls > > rather than by using queues and mailboxes. > > Yes, that's misleading... I've fixed it. > > Actually, it's not completely the way you want it yet. As it stands > now, when you send an mbuf, you have the option of either sending > it directly (ie, functionally) or sending it by queueing it for > delivery later. > > However, there's no way as the *receiving node* to say, "I want > all data sent to me to be delivered by qeueuing". So all sending > nodes would have to "cooperate". > > This ability would be easy to add and something we'll probably do > now that you've pointed it out. :-) I thought about this some time ago. Just add a method called "queued receive".. (rcvdataq). In most nodes this is filled out just the same as the rcvdata (or the dequeuer might check for a NULL and use rcvdata instead) In the case where node wants to force queuing, the normal rcvdata method simply calls ng_queue_data() as soon as it's called. The data is then queued and at dequeue time is fed in through rcvdataq() which actually accepts tha data. Note, that messages can also be queued. so a similar method may be used for that. > > -Archie > > ___________________________________________________________________________ > Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Fri Jan 29 02:48:31 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id CAA29017 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:48:31 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mailgate.nortel.ca (mailgate.NortelNetworks.com [192.58.194.74]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA29011 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 02:48:29 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tsbarry@nortelnetworks.com) Received: from nnsgifd1.europe.nortel.com (actually 47.137.131.66) by mailgate.nortel.ca; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 05:48:07 -0500 Received: by nnsgifd1.europe.nortel.com with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) id ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:48:05 -0000 Message-ID: <81C8165DD2A7D111AD700000F81F29CB02504A3A@nwcwi19.europe.nortel.com> From: "Barry Scott" To: "'Archie Cobbs'" , hm@hcs.de Cc: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG, julian@whistle.com Subject: RE: i4b and netgraph (was: I4B support for US ISDN?) Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 10:48:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1460.8) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > In order to minimize latency, all netgraph operations are functional. direct call vs. queuing does not have this advantage if you compare optimum solutions using both methods. e.g. take into account reentracy issues and event sequencing. Do you queue the create hook and delete hook events? I'm reasured that you have queuing, shame its not the default. Barry To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Fri Jan 29 08:53:24 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id IAA08327 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:53:24 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from gw-nl3.philips.com (gw-nl3.philips.com [192.68.44.35]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id IAA08317 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 08:53:21 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Jos.Backus@nl.origin-it.com) Received: from smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (localhost.philips.com [127.0.0.1]) by gw-nl3.philips.com with ESMTP id RAA14449 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:53:19 +0100 (MET) (envelope-from Jos.Backus@nl.origin-it.com) Received: from smtprelay-eur1.philips.com(130.139.36.3) by gw-nl3.philips.com via mwrap (4.0a) id xma014447; Fri, 29 Jan 99 17:53:19 +0100 Received: from hal.mpn.cp.philips.com (hal.mpn.cp.philips.com [130.139.64.195]) by smtprelay-nl1.philips.com (8.8.5/8.6.10-1.2.2m-970826) with SMTP id RAA07911 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:53:18 +0100 (MET) Received: (qmail 9056 invoked by uid 666); 29 Jan 1999 16:53:40 -0000 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 17:53:40 +0100 From: Jos Backus To: freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: i4b and netgraph (was: I4B support for US ISDN?) Message-ID: <19990129175340.G4698@hal.mpn.cp.philips.com> Reply-To: Jos Backus References: <199901272012.VAA36855@peedub.muc.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.1i In-Reply-To: ; from Hellmuth Michaelis on Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 10:23:40AM +0100 Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Thu, Jan 28, 1999 at 10:23:40AM +0100, Hellmuth Michaelis wrote: > - currently, i4b is relatively self-contained and runs under all BSD's (i've > got even BSD/OS patches for it). I would be interested in seeing these, if that is possible. Thanks, -- Jos Backus _/ _/_/_/ "Reliability means never _/ _/ _/ having to say you're sorry." _/ _/_/_/ -- D. J. Bernstein _/ _/ _/ _/ Jos.Backus@nl.origin-it.com _/_/ _/_/_/ use Std::Disclaimer; To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Fri Jan 29 09:31:22 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id JAA12764 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:27:38 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from alpo.whistle.com (alpo.whistle.com [207.76.204.38]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id JAA12744 for ; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:27:26 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from julian@whistle.com) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by alpo.whistle.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id JAA16054; Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:25:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from s204m82.isp.whistle.com(207.76.204.82) via SMTP by alpo.whistle.com, id smtpdx16042; Fri Jan 29 17:25:38 1999 Date: Fri, 29 Jan 1999 09:25:31 -0800 (PST) From: Julian Elischer X-Sender: julian@s204m82.isp.whistle.com To: Barry Scott cc: "'Archie Cobbs'" , hm@hcs.de, freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: RE: i4b and netgraph (was: I4B support for US ISDN?) In-Reply-To: <81C8165DD2A7D111AD700000F81F29CB02504A3A@nwcwi19.europe.nortel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Fri, 29 Jan 1999, Barry Scott wrote: > > In order to minimize latency, all netgraph operations are functional. > > direct call vs. queuing does not have this advantage if you compare > optimum solutions using both methods. e.g. take into account > reentracy > issues and event sequencing. > > Do you queue the create hook and delete hook events? > > I'm reasured that you have queuing, shame its not the default. Its not the default because a directly called node can decide to queue, within itself. (and have the data resubmitted at dequeue time).. basically the directly called subrutine acts as a subroutine of the caller, but with the internal knowledge of the callee. It's also slightly slower and un-needed for 98% of the operations. These nodes a VERY SIMPLE, and a packet may go through 6 of them. 6 queueing delays would be excessive. (look at this exact problem in STREAMS). It was decided to allow queueing (either sender or receiver can specify that it should be queued) but to use direct calling specifically because of the bad experiences of STREAMS. direct calling can still queue, but queueing cant go back to direct calling. Direct calling also allows return values, which are sometimes useful, and lost if you decide to queue. julian > > Barry > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sat Jan 30 05:04:52 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id FAA23221 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 05:04:52 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (critter.freebsd.dk [212.242.40.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id FAA23216 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 05:04:45 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from phk@critter.freebsd.dk) Received: from critter.freebsd.dk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by critter.freebsd.dk (8.9.1/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA09825 for ; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:03:20 +0100 (CET) To: isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: If they US contingent wants ISDN4BSD... From: Poul-Henning Kamp Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 14:02:50 +0100 Message-ID: <9823.917701370@critter.freebsd.dk> Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org How about they find something like this: http://www.tesales.com/monspec2.htm and send it to Hellmuth ? -- Poul-Henning Kamp FreeBSD coreteam member phk@FreeBSD.ORG "Real hackers run -current on their laptop." FreeBSD -- It will take a long time before progress goes too far! To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-isdn Sat Jan 30 13:35:36 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id NAA17519 for freebsd-isdn-outgoing; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:35:36 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from whistle.com (s205m131.whistle.com [207.76.205.131]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id NAA17507; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:35:30 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from archie@whistle.com) Received: (from smap@localhost) by whistle.com (8.7.5/8.6.12) id NAA09404; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:35:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from bubba.whistle.com( 207.76.205.7) by whistle.com via smap (V2.0) id xma009402; Sat, 30 Jan 99 13:35:28 -0800 Received: (from archie@localhost) by bubba.whistle.com (8.8.7/8.6.12) id NAA10780; Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:35:28 -0800 (PST) From: Archie Cobbs Message-Id: <199901302135.NAA10780@bubba.whistle.com> Subject: Re: If they US contingent wants ISDN4BSD... In-Reply-To: <9823.917701370@critter.freebsd.dk> from Poul-Henning Kamp at "Jan 30, 99 02:02:50 pm" To: phk@FreeBSD.ORG (Poul-Henning Kamp) Date: Sat, 30 Jan 1999 13:35:28 -0800 (PST) Cc: isdn@FreeBSD.ORG X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL38 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-isdn@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Poul-Henning Kamp writes: > How about they find something like this: > > http://www.tesales.com/monspec2.htm > > and send it to Hellmuth ? Or better yet, somebody should give him ssh access to a machine that's connected to a real ISDN line and has a Teles card in it... With $499 PC's for sale, that'd probably be cheaper :-) -Archie ___________________________________________________________________________ Archie Cobbs * Whistle Communications, Inc. * http://www.whistle.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-isdn" in the body of the message