From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 13 0:30:56 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from hotmail.com (law-f246.hotmail.com [209.185.130.211]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 9CFE714DB5 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:30:55 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dunaedain@hotmail.com) Received: (qmail 35521 invoked by uid 0); 13 Jun 1999 07:30:54 -0000 Message-ID: <19990613073054.35520.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 206.18.107.226 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:30:54 PDT X-Originating-IP: [206.18.107.226] From: lachlan kanaley To: FreeBSD-Newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: cheers Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:30:54 PDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org thanks for the v. quick reply about getting the CD's. I cant actually get them until the holidays in about two weeks, when I have both a) time to waste and b) a computer to waste time on. :) So I'll contact people then. cheers lachlan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 13 6:10:42 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp6.jps.net (smtp6.jps.net [209.63.224.103]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B4E14C4B for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 06:10:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from hpollard@jps.net) Received: from jps.net (208-235-93-75.jfk.jps.net [208.235.93.75]) by smtp6.jps.net (8.9.0/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA03204; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 06:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3763ADE2.43560248@jps.net> Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 09:10:59 -0400 From: Herbert M Pollard X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sue Blake Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit References: <199906120230.MAA15809@phoenix.welearn.com.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I have to agree with ML Duke and UEBAYASHI Masao. I can see that FreeBSD is a very powerful and stable O/S. It is also very complex. I think that a lot of if not most of the newbies to FreeBSD are not computer science students, at least I am not. As a person who is trying to learn this operating system at home on his own. I find it very hard to select a proper starting point. So far most books I have seen on unix are geared for either a user or a experience administrator, there is no in-between. It seem that with the advent of the opening up of the the internet to the general public new and exciting technologies are available to us. But to those in computer field they have had no contact with people like us. So many concepts are taken for granted as being widely know and they communicate at a level that is above our heads (mine). I for one have never taken C.S. 101 or something like that but basically that is what it feels' like to me . As such you have a minimum requirement before you can join this club or else you are lost and the rest of us don't have the time to teach you. I think there should be a forum for newbies where we can ask the technical and sometime what seems simple to others very basic questions and not be told to go to where guys are asking for advice on tweaking servers and the best way to configure samba. It's great to learn things on your own but people need help too and we need to feel that there is a place to go as a beginner and ask these questions, not get told go read some rfc or something. Herbert Pollard Sue Blake wrote: > FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit > (Last updated 30 August 1998) > > (This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. > It is also available at http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/) > > FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions about > installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help requests > are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions. > > FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for help or answer how-to > ......... To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 13 12:58: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from metis.host4u.net (metis.host4u.net [209.150.128.22]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 635BC14C0A for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:57:59 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from MAILER-DAEMON@dvl-software.com) Received: from wocker (210-55-152-36.ipnets.xtra.co.nz [210.55.152.36]) by metis.host4u.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24852; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:57:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199906131957.OAA24852@metis.host4u.net> From: "Dan Langille" Organization: DVL Software Limited To: Herbert M Pollard Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 07:57:52 +1200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit Reply-To: dan.langille@dvl-software.com Cc: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG In-reply-to: <3763ADE2.43560248@jps.net> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.01d) Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On 13 Jun 99, at 9:10, Herbert M Pollard wrote: > It's great to learn > things on your own but people need help too and we need to feel that there > is a place to go as a beginner and ask these questions, not get told go > read some rfc or something. There is such a place. It's called freebsd-questions. If you get told to read something and it doesn't help, ask again. Not everyone will give you the same answer. There are many resources. It is a large learning curve. It takes patience. -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/freebsd/ NZ FreeBSD User Group - http://www.nzfug.nz.freebsd.org/ The Racing System - http://www.racingsystem.com/racingsystem.htm To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Sun Jun 13 23:31:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from garnet.acns.fsu.edu (gmhub.acns.fsu.edu [146.201.2.30]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D98A114C30 for ; Sun, 13 Jun 1999 23:31:45 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from bcc9746@garnet.acns.fsu.edu) Received: from garnet1.acns.fsu.edu (garnet1-fi.acns.fsu.edu [128.186.197.2]) by garnet.acns.fsu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id CAA35836; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 02:31:44 -0400 Received: from s1o3q0 (dial859.acns.fsu.edu [146.201.35.249]) by garnet1.acns.fsu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id CAA22022; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 02:31:39 -0400 Message-ID: <001f01beb62f$bea8bc40$f923c992@s1o3q0> From: "Brett G. Castleberry" To: , "Herbert M Pollard" Cc: References: <199906131957.OAA24852@metis.host4u.net> Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 02:32:55 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dear Newbies, As a fellow complainer ( a couple of months ago) I feel that I need to second Mr. Langille's comments. It is a steep learning curve, but the FreeBSD folks have put a lot of work into providing documentation that will answer your questions. I could be wrong, but I sense a kind of generational gap between posters to Unix and Linux newsgroups. I am trying out both Linux and FreeBSD (I just got my CDs for FreeBSD 3.2 this weekend). I have installed Red Hat Linux 6.0 in a partition on my primary machine. A post to the local Florida State University Linux newsgroup about problems with my installation got me quick, specific answers from another user, also new (not as new as me) but eager to share his new-found knowledge, the way students share knowledge among themselves regarding a class assignment, like we're all little eager Linux puppies sharing discoveries with each other. I am a 45 year old graduate student, but all the other Linux users I have met are 20-somethings. With FreeBSD, I feel like I'm talking to professors. If I ask a professor about something, she (or he) will want to know whether I have done the reading first. If not, she's got no time for me. I bought a used 486 to install FreeBSD on that had a Toshiba cdrom device. I didn't find it on the hardware list in the manual, but I did find it in a doc called "Jordan's Picks". So check out all the links at FreeBSD.org as well as FreeBSD Diary, an excellent supplement to the main site. A lot of these guys are greybeards, and when they start talking about the history of unix on "questions", perk up your ears. Read the online manual, get yourself a copy of "The Complete FreeBSD" by Greg Lehey, as well as a copy of "Newton's Telecom Dictionary" if you are really new to the field, as I am. If you ask a question and are referred to a document or a man page, go read it. It might not be the easy answer, but you'll become expert this way. I was browsing the shelves at our local Barnes & Noble bookstore recently,when a young man asked me if I could recommend a book about Linux. He worked at a small computer shop in Georgia, and had driven down to Tallahassee to find a book and a cd to take back and play with. The most useful, brief thing I could tell him was that Linux is a kind of Unix, and that therefore not only the small Linux selection was pertinent to his query, but also the much larger Unix section. He had never heard of Unix. Brett G. Castleberry bcc9746@garnet.acns.fsu.edu Tallahassee, Florida ----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Langille To: Herbert M Pollard Cc: Sent: Sunday, June 13, 1999 3:57 PM Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit > On 13 Jun 99, at 9:10, Herbert M Pollard wrote: > > > It's great to learn > > things on your own but people need help too and we need to feel that there > > is a place to go as a beginner and ask these questions, not get told go > > read some rfc or something. > > There is such a place. It's called freebsd-questions. If you get told to > read something and it doesn't help, ask again. Not everyone will give > you the same answer. > > There are many resources. It is a large learning curve. It takes > patience. > -- > Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited > The FreeBSD Diary - http://www.FreeBSDDiary.org/freebsd/ > NZ FreeBSD User Group - http://www.nzfug.nz.freebsd.org/ > The Racing System - http://www.racingsystem.com/racingsystem.htm > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 14 3:49:51 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp (nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp [131.112.148.3]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F269414DB1 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 03:49:49 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from masao@nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp) Received: from localhost (neon.enveng.titech.ac.jp [131.112.148.211]) by nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp (8.8.7/8.8.7) with ESMTP id TAA18538 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:44:29 +0900 (JST) (envelope-from masao@nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp) To: freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 14 Jun 1999 02:32:55 -0400" <001f01beb62f$bea8bc40$f923c992@s1o3q0> References: <001f01beb62f$bea8bc40$f923c992@s1o3q0> X-Mailer: Mew version 1.93 on Emacs 19.34 / Mule 2.3 (SUETSUMUHANA) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <19990614195153X.masao@nf.enveng.titech.ac.jp> Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:51:53 +0900 From: UEBAYASHI Masao X-Dispatcher: imput version 980905(IM100) Lines: 26 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org > With FreeBSD, I feel like I'm talking to professors. If I ask a > professor about something, she (or he) will want to know whether I have done > the reading first. If not, she's got no time for me. I bought a used 486 [...] The thing I am recently considering is, that we have a list ``for'' newbies does not alway mean that we will cater for newbies. I recognize its list as only a milestone for them, that is, by it, they should know what to do, how to learn, and how to live with our community. This is not immediate help. If they get a reply of only a line of ``see foo(1)'' in for-newbies-list, they may think it as it is. I personally think they are less disappointed than we think, because there is the place for newbies. They can know a fault of their question is not due to their ignorance about FreeBSD at least. Any comments appreciated! :) Masao --- ``My economic life -- never in the realms of economics.'' |- -|- -|- _|_ /|\ /|\ U E BAYASHI To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Mon Jun 14 16: 6: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from smtp11.bellglobal.com (smtp11.bellglobal.com [204.101.251.53]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0170714A14 for ; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:06:05 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from vanderh@ecf.toronto.edu) Received: from localhost.nowhere (ppp1666.on.bellglobal.com [206.172.249.130]) by smtp11.bellglobal.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA00604; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:08:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from tim@localhost) by localhost.nowhere (8.9.3/8.9.1) id TAA81541; Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:06:38 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from tim) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:06:37 -0400 From: Tim Vanderhoek To: "Brett G. Castleberry" Cc: dan.langille@dvl-software.com, Herbert M Pollard , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit Message-ID: <19990614190637.B79325@mad> References: <199906131957.OAA24852@metis.host4u.net> <001f01beb62f$bea8bc40$f923c992@s1o3q0> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: <001f01beb62f$bea8bc40$f923c992@s1o3q0>; from Brett G. Castleberry on Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 02:32:55AM -0400 Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 02:32:55AM -0400, Brett G. Castleberry wrote: > > all little eager Linux puppies sharing discoveries with each other. I am a Interesting analogy. :) > With FreeBSD, I feel like I'm talking to professors. If I ask a > professor about something, she (or he) will want to know whether I have done > the reading first. If not, she's got no time for me. I bought a used 486 Well, fwiw, I barely qualify as a 20-something (well, technically I don't, period), only just completed first year university, and am violently opposed to CS. I get listed under the "developer" section of the handbook, but it's never been clear why. ;-) Anyways, I'm trying to pull away a little from the stereotype of FreeBSD developers as cold impersonal objects: that's the only reason I left this Cc: to -newbies, still. We're just as warm and cuddly as any newbie, really! (I dare any newbie to try being warmer or cuddlier than me! Hehe). > useful, brief thing I could tell him was that Linux is a kind of Unix, and > that therefore not only the small Linux selection was pertinent to his > query, but also the much larger Unix section. He had never heard of Unix. Ya, I know... -- This is my .signature which gets appended to the end of my messages. To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 15 4: 7: 1 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.1]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 31E1B14F55 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:06:57 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from dpilgrim@uswest.net) Received: (qmail 20117 invoked by alias); 15 Jun 1999 11:06:50 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG@fixme Received: (qmail 20082 invoked by uid 0); 15 Jun 1999 11:06:49 -0000 Received: from edsl170.ptld.uswest.net (HELO uswest.net) (209.180.175.170) by ptldpop1.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 15 Jun 1999 11:06:49 -0000 Message-ID: <376633CC.7CD2C744@uswest.net> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:06:52 -0700 From: Organization: Neatly stacked heaps of digital chaos X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: "Brett G. Castleberry" , dan.langille@dvl-software.com, Herbert M Pollard , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit References: <199906131957.OAA24852@metis.host4u.net> <001f01beb62f$bea8bc40$f923c992@s1o3q0> <19990614190637.B79325@mad> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 14, 1999 at 02:32:55AM -0400, Brett G. Castleberry wrote: > > > > all little eager Linux puppies sharing discoveries with each other. I am a > > Interesting analogy. :) Yes, and like little puppies, they pee on everything when they get too excited. ;-) To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Tue Jun 15 4:53: 4 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from knfpub.com (knfpub.com [192.41.28.100]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9983714C82 for ; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 04:53:02 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from cjag@knfpub.com) Received: from fuzzy.au.eggdrop.net (fuzzy@fuzzy.au.eggdrop.net [203.38.198.131]) by knfpub.com (8.8.5) id FAA13293; Tue, 15 Jun 1999 05:53:00 -0600 (MDT) Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.3 [p0] on FreeBSD X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <000601beb515$6c0eea10$01010101@ash> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:22:51 +0930 (CST) Reply-To: cjag@knfpub.com From: Christine Jaeger To: Anne-Sophie Hombert Subject: RE: Booting FreeBSD with Win NT Cc: "FreeBSD (newbies)" Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Hi there, We use a free third-party boot loader called os-bs to boot three partitions containing NT, win95 and FreeBSD. It works a treat, and is fairly easy to set up. I always get a laugh that this little piece of freeware can do what a huge monolithic system such as NT cannot. But then, the dudes who wrote osboot aren't fussy about what OS's you run ;) If you have trouble finding it let me know, and I'll chuck my rather old copy of it on a server for you. Cheers, Christine Jaeger. P.S For anyone wanting to cram as many OS's on a hard drive as possible, remember that NT boot files need to be located in the first partition. One day I'll find enough spare cash to simply buy another hard drive..... On 12-Jun-99 Anne-Sophie Hombert wrote: > A real newbie question ... > > I just installed FreeBSD 2.2.8. Since I have also NT running on the system, > I did not to install booteasy nor modify the MBR. For the moment I boot > FreeBSD from the install disk, using "wd(1,a) kernel" at the boot prompt. > > The system configuration is as follows (HP vectra, PII 450 Mhz, 128 Mb RAM): > - primary HDD (10Gb) entirely dedicated to NT, on the first controller as > master > - secondary HDD with 2 partitions (4Gb), first controller, slave: a very > small DOS partition(7 Mb), just enough to allow HP power management utility > to recognize the drive and put it to sleep when it's not used and the rest > (so about 4Gb) dedicated to FreeBSD. > > I have tried to apply the method in the FAQ to boot via NT loader, but it > does not work. > > Now the question : do I have any other options than the boot floppy to load > FreeBSD on a system with Win NT installed ? > > Thanks for your help, > > Anne > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Christine Jaeger Date: 15-Jun-99 Time: 20:55:19 http://www.knfpub.com/ ---------------------------------- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 18 12:15: 8 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from dt054n86.san.rr.com (dt054n86.san.rr.com [24.30.152.134]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31DDF151B8 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:15:04 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Received: from localhost (doug@localhost) by dt054n86.san.rr.com (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA16639; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:14:47 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from Studded@gorean.org) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 12:14:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Studded X-Sender: doug@dt054n86.san.rr.com To: Tim Vanderhoek Cc: ML Duke , freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit In-Reply-To: <19990612200606.B70348@mad> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, 12 Jun 1999, Tim Vanderhoek wrote: > On Fri, Jun 11, 1999 at 08:56:51PM -0600, ML Duke wrote: > > > > > FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for help or answer how-to > > > questions. It is a discussion forum for newbies. > > > > I've been on this list, off and on, for some time. You keep saying the > > above, even harping on it, it seems, no disrespect intended. Why? > > It's on the contract she signed about a year ago. ;-) > > When this list was created, most of the, um, dare I call them, Old > Guard, were loudly opposed to its creation. Its purpose was far from > clear to them, and its backers were never quite able to succinctly > summarize its purpose in four words (or less). Nevertheless, > freebsd-newbies was ultimately given life as a place where people, not > just new to FreeBSD, but intimidated by the whole UNIX aura hovering > inside most FreeBSD mailing-lists, could meet. However, there was > a caveat: the new mailing list must not damage support structures > already in place for user-help. The potential for this was deemed > to be very great by Old Guard of the Support Structures. The cells > behind this potential are explained semi-regularly courtesy Sue, and I > expect a follow-up to your question re-listing them. :) As a member of the vocal majority opposed to the creation of this list (whether I am "Old Guard" or not is subject to interpretation) I felt I should respond. Tim made some excellent points, and I agree with almost all of what he said. However, I'd like to explain some reasoning behind the initial opposition. I've had years of experience both providing help to users on and off the internet, and teaching people how to do so. My objection to the formation of this list was twofold. First, I did not think that it was necessary or desirable to "segregate" new users to their own space. Rather, it would be more beneficial to the project as a whole to help educate experienced users on how to be more helpful (and approachable) on the -questions list. As users become more experienced or profficient they tend to naturally migrate to other lists, like -current or -hackers. We need a friendly, supportive list for all users to be able to ask questions on, and a very important principle in customer support is that customers should have ONE point of entri into the system. On the positive side, Sue and others have done a good job in helping with the gentrification of -questions, but there is still a ways to go. My other objection was based on the fact that if you create a list for new users, it is inevitable that they will ask questions there. The only options are to answer the questions (see above) or costantly harp on the very users we're trying to be supportive of about following "the rules." Neither outcome is desirable. Related to this objection is the fact that I didn't see any purpose for it. I'm still not sure I do, but people like it, so what the heck. We now conclude the "blast from the past" portion of our program, and return you to the regularly scheduled squabbling and back-biting. :) Doug -- *** Chief Operations Officer, DALnet IRC network *** On account of being a democracy and run by the people, we are the only nation in the world that has to keep a government four years, no matter what it does. -- Will Rogers To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message From owner-freebsd-newbies Fri Jun 18 19:30:33 1999 Delivered-To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Received: from phoenix.welearn.com.au (phoenix.welearn.com.au [139.130.44.81]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2FB1C14BD7 for ; Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:30:19 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from sue@phoenix.welearn.com.au) Received: (from sue@localhost) by phoenix.welearn.com.au (8.9.1/8.9.0) id MAA14620 for freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org; Sat, 19 Jun 1999 12:30:14 +1000 (EST) Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 12:30:14 +1000 (EST) From: Sue Blake Message-Id: <199906190230.MAA14620@phoenix.welearn.com.au> To: freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org Subject: FreeBSD Newbies First Aid Kit Sender: owner-freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org FreeBSD-Newbies First Aid Kit (Last updated 30 August 1998) (This is a regular posting to the FreeBSD-Newbies mailing list. It is also available at http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies/) FreeBSD-Questions@FreeBSD.ORG is the place to send all questions about installing, configuring, running and using FreeBSD. All help requests are handled by FreeBSD-Questions, including newbies questions. FreeBSD-Newbies is different. We don't ask for help or answer how-to questions. It is a discussion forum for newbies. FreeBSD-Newbies provides a place for new FreeBSD users to meet and covers any of the activities of newbies that are not already dealt with elsewhere. Examples include helping each other to learn more on our own, finding and using resources, problem solving techniques, how to seek help elsewhere, how to use mailing lists and which lists to use, general chat, making mistakes, boasting, sharing ideas, stories, moral (but not technical) support, and taking an active part in the FreeBSD community. We take our problems and support questions to freebsd-questions, and use freebsd-newbies to meet others who are doing the same things that we do as newbies. One of the things we do together is learn more effective ways to find help when we need it. Here are some suggestions: When something doesn't work the way you expect 1. First look at the errata for your release of FreeBSD at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/releases/ for the latest information and security advisories. 2. Search the Handbook, FAQ, and mail archives at http://www.FreeBSD.ORG/search.html 3. If you still have a question or problem, collect the output of `uname -a' and of any relevant program(s) and email your question to FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. Mailing lists When you have a problem that you can't solve by yourself, there's only one support mailing list and that's FreeBSD-questions@FreeBSD.ORG. FreeBSD-questions helps with installation and basic setup as well as more general and advanced questions. You don't have to actually join freebsd-questions before asking a question there. Replies to your question will normally be sent to you personally as well as to the list. Just make sure you have read and followed the guidelines for posting, because you might find them different to what you're used to. If you do subscribe to freebsd-questions you'll have the advantage of seeing all of the recent questions and their answers. Before you post to FreeBSD-questions, please read the guidelines at http://www.lemis.com/questions.html Many of the people who answer FreeBSD-questions are very knowledgeable, but they get frustrated when they get questions which are difficult to understand. http://www.lemis.com/email.html is worth reading too. If you're not sure that you can follow these guidelines, come back and ask the other newbies for help on how to post an effective question to the support mailing list. Maybe your question has been asked before. If you search the mailing list archives at http://www.freebsd.org/search.html first you might get the answer right away. It's always worth trying. Other mailing lists (http://www.freebsd.org/handbook/eresources.html#ERESOURCES-CHARTERS) cover specialised areas and many are more developer-oriented. You'll need to read their charters carefully before participating, but it's probably a good idea to ask on either -newbies or -questions for advice about where to post a more specialised question. FreeBSD-announce is a very low volume read-only list for occasional announcements, such as notice of new releases, and the Really Quick Newsletter. It's worth subscribing to FreeBSD-announce too. Manuals You'll always be expected to show that you have made some effort to use the available documentation before asking for help. That's not always as easy as it sounds! If you know what documentation you need but can't locate it, send a brief query to FreeBSD-questions. If you don't know what you need, always have trouble finding it, or can't make any sense of it when you do, ask some patient newbies to steer you in the right direction. Anyone interested in writing or reviewing documentation for FreeBSD is encouraged to join the FreeBSD Documentation Project. Details are at http://www.freebsd.org/docproj/docproj.html Other resources A resource list is available at http://www.freebsd.org/projects/newbies.html to help new and inexperienced FreeBSD users to find relevant information quickly. It includes books, on line documents and tutorials, and links to web pages that other newbies have found useful for learning. If you have a suggestion for good material to be included, please write to freebsd-newbies and tell us about it. But I have seen people asking questions here! It is quite common for people to send the wrong kind of post to a mailing list. Because we're newbies it'll certainly happen here from time to time. The best thing to do if you see a message that doesn't belong on a list is to ignore it. There's always someone around whose job it is to sort these problems out privately. The posts to the lists go straight through, whatever their content. It is going to be confusing for a little while because we're all newbies so we all make mistakes. That's OK. One thing we're going to see a fair bit is people posting questions, believing they're doing the right thing by posting here as newbies, not realising how it works. If someone answers those questions the situation will snowball. There's nothing wrong with helping someone to redirect their question to freebsd-questions, but please do so gently. There's nothing wrong with the occasional mistake either. So all questions, requests for help, etc still go to freebsd-questions as usual. Ours is more of a discussion group, a place where newbies can relax with other newbies and focus more on our successes than on our temporary imperfection. We can talk about things here that are not allowed on freebsd-questions. We're also a bit freer to make the mistakes that we need to make in order to learn. _________________________________________________________________ To Subscribe to FreeBSD-Newbies: Send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "subscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message. Mail sent to freebsd-newbies@freebsd.org appears on the mailing list. _________________________________________________________________ To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message